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joined #lisp 01:20:39 _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.137.1] has joined #lisp 01:23:24 -!- saikat [n=saikat@dsl081-073-197.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:24:44 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:25:14 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:25:38 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-25.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:54 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:07 -!- cads [n=max@c-76-122-89-218.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:34:21 minion: logs 01:34:21 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 01:35:58 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.137.1] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:36:37 jimi_hendrix [n=jimi_hen@unaffiliated/jimihendrix/x-735601] has joined #lisp 01:37:47 i am trying to check if an arg does not equal nil, but if i do (not (= arg nil)) it complains 01:38:49 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 01:40:17 alexbobp [n=alex@adsl-75-63-0-19.dsl.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:21 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-26-19.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 01:42:28 = is only for comparing numbers. 01:42:40 If you want it to be not nil just (not arg) should do the trick. 01:42:56 thelaptop [n=thelapto@unaffiliated/thelaptop] has joined #lisp 01:43:01 -!- thelaptop [n=thelapto@unaffiliated/thelaptop] has left #lisp 01:43:13 jimi_hendrix: the general-purpose comparison function is EQUAL, not = 01:43:15 -!- nis [n=nicolas@91-165-136-189.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:43:24 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has left #lisp 01:43:29 nis [n=nicolas@91-165-136-189.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:30 -!- nis [n=nicolas@91-165-136-189.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:43:34 ok 01:43:35 thanks 01:43:44 jimi_hendrix: for non-referentially transparent programs, you will also be interested in EQ and EQL 01:43:59 Though some folks would dispute that theres any single "general-purpose" equality test. 01:44:30 well, I assume the only one that has meaning in referentially transparent code is the primitive one (not in implementation terms, which is obviously EQ) 01:44:43 lisp has too many equality functions...lol 01:44:54 actually, it's the others that don't have enough. 01:45:07 Like Java, seriously, the whole == on strings thing? 01:45:13 except for java 01:45:16 Well, you can (and probably should) ignore the existence of EQ. 01:45:21 S11001001, no that does not work 01:45:28 I know 01:45:35 because no operator overloads in java 01:45:37 hence my pointing it out as a confusing limitation 01:45:46 and it's just confusing the other way in C# 01:45:56 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-38-249.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 01:46:09 and then PHP brings in the whole ridiculous ==/=== thing and makes it non-commutative 01:46:23 anyway, most lispers also use EQ and EQL in certain idiomatic circumstances, like when comparing to a symbol 01:46:25 if you want horror, look at how JavaScript defines ==. 01:46:56 Then it defines a stricter comparison, ===, which does not do type coercions  but NaN !== NaN. 01:47:48 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-30-70.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:48:25 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.173.243] has quit [Success] 01:48:37 I like to use EQ to make clear that I am looking for object-sameness, so I don't have to think about EQL's extra character/integer handling when looking at that code. But gigamonkey is right, you can ignore it and just use EQL in 99.9% of EQ cases 01:49:06 Do lisps supporting NaN typically have (eql NaN NaN) => T? 01:49:07 *kpreid* avoids EQ on the same principle as avoiding SETQ. 01:49:10 is gigamonkey like a bible to lispers 01:49:41 I too avoid setq completely. But there's no semantic knowledge gain from using SETQ over SETF, which isn't the case for EQ 01:49:43 *gigamonkey* avoids EQ because it ruins "everything is an object" 01:50:02 -!- jao [n=jao@obfw.oblong.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:50:19 gigamonkey: "eql may not be true of two floats even when they represent the same value." -- I don't know if this is relevant 01:50:25 any semantic knowledge from SETQ can be had by glancing at the odd arguments. 01:50:42 kpreid: I think that just goes to show how messed up floats are. ;-) 01:50:49 *jimi_hendrix* stired the hornets nest 01:51:12 but it might refer to denormalization and/or data-carrying NaNs instead of or in addition to NaN /= NaN 01:51:35 my guess is denormalization 01:51:38 gigamonkey: actually, a lot of this freakiness is *what you want* in various numerical computation scenarios 01:51:46 ...but you probably know that already 01:52:01 Yup. Doesn't make it non-freaky though. 01:52:55 incidentally, I read an article some time ago that claimed that it is Wrong to not have imaginary-part-only numbers (but only two-component complex numbers), due to the resulting presence of a signed zero 01:52:55 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host189.190-137-176.telecom.net.ar] has quit ["leaving"] 01:53:06 Tordek [n=tordek@host189.190-137-176.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 01:53:37 (that is, you can have #C(0.0 1.0) and #C(-0.0 1.0) but not #C(really-zero 1.0)) and gave some example of where this causes a calculation to not yield all solutions 01:54:45 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:22 I wonder if CL:COMPLEX could legally be implemented to return the same value for (complex 0.0 1.0) and (complex -0.0 1.0)? 02:00:05 shizzy0 [n=shane@c-76-105-6-146.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:26 <_3b> there is no requirement to have -0.0, so probably 02:01:42 But if you did have -0.0 would it be okay? 02:02:13 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:02:14 <_3b> probably not 02:02:36 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-32-137.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:04:11 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-68-127-153-175.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:25 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:47 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:24 "failed logins should trigger a lock-out after a determined number of attempts" - SANS 02:10:40 ".. from that particular IP address" - me 02:11:17 <_3b> make sure nobody can spoos the IP too :) 02:11:21 <_3b> *spoof 02:12:00 (hash client-ip (or session-id (cokie-value "id"))) 02:12:36 <_3b> also depends on how much security you need vs. how much access, and on how responsive whoever turns it back on is 02:14:07 something like an exponentially growing delay period, followed by a barrage of annoying captchas in Welsh 02:20:19 There's more than one NaN, so (eql NaN NaN) might be T or NIL. I think. And I think IEEE says NaN = NaN is false, even if both NaN have exactly the same bit pattern. 02:20:28 *rtoym* is a bit slow. 02:20:58 *_3b* needs more time for working on editor stuff... would be nice to be able to edit then compile the contents of the slime macroexpand window 02:21:12 NaN != NaN, same as mathematical infinity, if I'm not mistaken. 02:22:20 You mean inf != inf? I'll have to check on that. 02:22:48 rtoym: in classical mathematics, yes, inf != inf 02:23:48 Hmm. Don't recall ever seeing that in math. 02:24:29 rtoym: it's in the Peano axioms 02:24:39 look into set countability 02:25:29 kpreid: Kahan's paper, Much Ado about Nothing's Sign, has some examples of this. Sort of. Well maybe it was mixing real and complex operations where you didn't want to convert the real to complex first. 02:26:02 fusss: I don't think I ever learned the Peano axioms. 02:26:04 rtoym: the additional context I recall is that they said that C99 got this right. 02:26:36 kpreid: Oh, so C99 has pure imaginary numbers? 02:26:56 I do not personally know. 02:27:15 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:27:17 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:27:39 Heh. I'm still kind of stuck on K&R C, more or less. I haven't been following C at all. 02:27:39 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:28:33 quotemstr_ [n=quotemst@cpe-67-246-181-235.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:28:53 rtoym: It does. I just checked my ANSI C99 reference. 02:29:35 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 02:31:18 Nice. Does it also say real+complex doesn't coerce real to complex before doing the addition? 02:31:28 Let me check. 02:31:57 rtoym: I didn't recall anything about Peano axioms, but it due to the simple thing that 2*infinity is still infinity... :D 02:33:42 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:00 rtoym: Can't really find anything on that, sorry. 02:34:51 dkcl: No prob. I really should get a new C reference book. I think Kahan was working with the C spec. 02:34:59 p_l: That makes sense. 02:35:10 ansi/iso C 02:36:20 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:38:41 Complex number support is optional in c99. 02:40:27 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 02:40:28 Hello Zhivago 02:40:35 Hello. 02:42:06 Zhivago: 7 years after your initial effort, cmucl now has unicode (almost). :-( 02:42:55 is anyone still using cmucl? :) 02:43:12 Heh. Some still are. 02:43:15 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:44:14 I've more or less come to the conclusion that to support unicode properly you need to allow characters to be code-point sequences, so that they can implement composing character sequences. 02:44:32 I don't know if you're interested in that, though. 02:45:34 I haven't looked into that very much. My knowledge of unicode is still rather limited. 02:45:50 I'm more and more convinced that character based text operations are a bad idea, anyhow. 02:46:33 That I kind of understand. You should really operate on strings, not individual characters. 02:48:02 maybe unicode is the problem, not characters and strings 02:48:20 (maybe that is irrelevant in practice) 02:54:10 No, unicode is pretty good. 02:55:08 Characters are a problem, because they imply one atomic slicing of text, and you can't transform one character into more than one character and have the result remain a character. 02:55:30 (Which is why python's approach is better in that regard) 02:56:06 Zhivago: I use cmucl 02:57:40 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:58:50 You do? You mean I'm not the only one? 02:59:26 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-68-127-153-175.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:02:59 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-68-239-77-4.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:05:04 perhaps you can say that there isn't anything a computer can meaningfully do with a large class of strings, except to concatenate them together, because they're meant for human consumption 03:05:37 holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:48 hi lisp! 03:05:54 have you guys seen this: 03:05:58 http://www.imagine27.com/articles/2009-04-09-010147_live_lisp_art_opengl_synth_sound.html 03:06:04 purty lisp 03:06:50 I wonder if that's the guy who embedded drei into his livecoding setup. I forget his nick. 03:07:15 well just watch 2/3rds of teh way in 03:07:30 he shows the graphics stuff behind his emacs or whatever he is doing 03:07:51 -!- Ijeroj [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:07:53 i wonder how he is getting his code to be automagically compiled/executed 03:08:19 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-3008cc06be970047] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:08:57 probably via slime and a keystroke we aren't seeing 03:10:13 holycow: nope. his editor evaluates all valid forms as soon as he types it in. live editing :-) 03:10:29 whoa, what? 03:10:31 sweet 03:10:35 what editoris that? 03:10:47 god that sounds like a whole lot of fun 03:12:11 we can get that to happen in emacs maybe 03:12:15 jfactor [n=jfactor@student165-194.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 03:12:19 or climacs even :) 03:12:53 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Client Quit] 03:13:18 holycow: as I mentioned, someone did just that (embedding climacs, aka Drei, in an opengl livecoding setup) 03:13:34 ohhhhhhhhhhh 03:13:39 i misunderstood 03:13:42 sweet! 03:13:49 wow what a fun way to learn lisp 03:13:58 I'm skeptical that this is the same code, because unlike my usual experience with Drei, it isn't throwing errors all over the place 03:14:02 ;) 03:14:15 hehehehe 03:14:23 maybe he didn't invoke -v 03:14:24 ? 03:14:26 pardon my bash 03:14:27 hehehe 03:14:32 "it actually works!" 03:14:54 is that lisp or scheme in there? 03:14:59 i mean cl 03:15:11 holycow: looked like a schemish DSL 03:15:30 huh 03:15:35 yeah, it seems to be scheme. 03:16:07 holycow: there are a bunch of these guys. lemonodor is probably the guy to ask about everything lisp and shiny. 03:16:13 I was willing to believe if might be CL with a goofy 'define' macro, until I saw the nested package prefixes 03:16:18 *holycow* notes lemonodor 03:16:30 i likey pretey shiney 03:16:36 heck, it could even be Lush 03:16:40 *_3b* guesses http://www.pawfal.org/fluxus/ 03:17:45 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:18:27 like i said, there are plenty of lispy things used by people in retro sneakers and spiked hair (scalp hair, not back hair ;-) 03:19:21 hehehe 03:19:28 looks like i found my community 03:19:30 :) 03:20:21 <_3b> ah, actually seems to be http://impromptu.moso.com.au/ not fluxus 03:20:55 *fusss* reiterates the fact there are _plenty_ of these things 03:23:10 holycow: to curb your enthusiasm, maybe you would like to port gsharp and its mcclim stack to the kitten of death platform? mmmm sheets .. 03:23:39 hehehehe 03:25:13 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-25.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:18 Any idea what's causing this 'Versions differ: 2008-12-09 (slime) vs. 2009-04-03 (swank). Continue? (y or n)' 03:25:27 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-25.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:25:33 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 03:25:38 leo2007: debian user? 03:25:44 macosx 03:26:04 trying to install CVS slime 03:26:41 nah cvs version is newer 03:26:55 if then uninstall the other 03:27:05 or get them both from cvs 03:27:28 and you don't need the cl-swank really 03:27:36 slime comes with it's own version i think 03:28:06 it's a dependency not ? 03:29:11 sepult_: all of them are from CVS, I have deleted the old one which I downloaded from CVS on 2008-12-09 03:29:37 oh 03:29:45 that's strange then 03:30:42 do you have any version reffered to by diversions ? 03:30:47 leo2007: did you remove ~/.slime/fasl/* ? 03:32:22 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032609]"] 03:32:37 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has joined #lisp 03:32:47 I compiled slime in Emacs and it uses some info from the old version. I need to install slime in load-path first and then compile to get rid of that stupid error. 03:35:29 now it loads without error! 03:36:16 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:36:30 how to build native application on os x? 03:39:22 learn Objective C and get to hacking :) 03:40:07 Doesn't Clozure CL have pretty good ObjC bindings these days? 03:40:26 vinleod [n=vince@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:01 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-26-19.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 03:46:07 -!- legumbre` is now known as legumbre 03:47:19 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has quit [Client Quit] 03:47:54 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has joined #lisp 03:48:55 hefner: I mean using cl 03:49:02 Anyone see the lisp music/art? 03:49:25 If not, here: http://www.imagine27.com/articles/2009-04-09-010147_live_lisp_art_opengl_synth_sound.html 03:49:28 (video) 03:49:42 vy` [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 03:49:46 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:50:10 pretty nifty huh? 03:50:29 it turns out to be scheme according to a few knowledgeablefolks in here 03:52:45 Yeah 03:52:49 <_death> Impromptu 03:53:23 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.202.25] has quit [Client Quit] 03:53:54 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:55:40 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 03:56:26 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:56:43 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:58:44 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-154-250.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:12 aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:16 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:59:16 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:00:56 -!- aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:01:14 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:03 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.8/2009032608]"] 04:13:30 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.173.243] has joined #lisp 04:25:45 drakej [n=fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:54 #lisp should play a game sometime. 04:28:58 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 04:29:16 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.208.253] has joined #lisp 04:30:56 Like, two-person teams coding simultaneously in the same document (so one can see the other's edits immediately), and develop something faster than other teams. :> 04:31:07 hehehe 04:31:13 i like it 04:31:15 :) 04:31:49 I have no idea if realtime multi-user code editing/compilation is possible with emacs though. 04:32:19 <_3b> depends on if you trust the other person or not :p 04:32:37 its been discussed, nothing like gobi 04:33:02 it could all be sandboxed in a vm that you can roll back at any time 04:33:08 <_3b> if you trust 'em, just open up an ssh tunnel, forward X and open up another emacs frame on their display 04:33:36 *_3b* guesses mort people wouldn't like that idea though :) 04:33:39 <_3b> *most 04:34:08 you could do that too in a sandboxed vm 04:34:37 <_3b> true, that might not be as bad 04:34:52 <_3b> just more hassle to set up 04:35:00 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-95-53-179-102.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 04:35:33 Quadrescence: I've done that when tutoring friends in various languages before. 04:35:44 sykopomp: using what? 04:35:46 I make an account for them on my box and tell them to ssh in, then we share an emacs session. 04:36:27 oh heh 04:36:56 Quad: There's always screen -x 04:37:16 yeah, I've used screen -x for the tutoring sessions, since I've had to teach these people how to use the shell, too :P 04:40:55 We did something like this. Created this thing called IC.IDX was generated from the code we wrote. We all talked across the room and keyed things into this _database_ 04:41:09 IC stood for irrelevant correlations 04:41:57 It ended up being the focus of a US$19m court case as the team left one company and went to another! 04:42:07 wow 04:42:11 thats a cool idea tho 04:42:21 you could have an sql based dcvs out of that 04:42:47 It's amazing as we all tried to type things that were not related to the conversation. The interleaved comments of everyone in the room were then read back at the end of the session 04:43:01 heh 04:43:15 it could be interesting also from a docmentation perspective 04:43:34 you could have a documentation team online paying attention and documenting as we go along 04:44:32 thats pretty frickin sweet idea 04:46:53 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.208.253] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:50:47 Since then, I don't think I've been in a room that had enough decent programmers to play programming games. Corporations stifle creativity I guess. 04:51:49 they tend to value fascist ideals: standardaziation, paperwork, auditability and certifications. 04:52:01 i've implemented many of those my self. 04:52:29 however this programmer games idea is just awesome 04:52:56 thats one of the neatest ideas i've heard yet that could be used to pull new users into the lisp community. 04:54:28 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:55:13 Well not so sure I particularly favour many people coming over to Lisp, but Lisp would be a great platform for group activities. 04:55:32 wentbackward: that is a cojent observation indeed 04:59:03 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-25.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:59:28 These videos are cool for impromtu and fluxus, but I think so much more could be done. Basically they're people tweaking values, a bit like the lone guy on a stage with a synthesizer twisting dials. 04:59:39 Surely the power of lisp could be brought to bear 04:59:49 well i was thinking 05:00:06 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:00:09 i'd love to see my app automatically updated in a window next to my emacs session 05:00:12 so i can build the app live 05:00:34 That's how I work all the time! 05:00:42 really? 05:00:45 *_3b* works that way too 05:00:56 uhhh, that's how I work too... 05:01:00 i'm a total noob, how does work or get set up? 05:01:05 slime? 05:01:07 <_3b> (at least with interactive apps, don't really leave my compiler running in a loop for example :) 05:01:41 when I'm working on sdl-related stuff, I slap my main loop into a thread, and then start compiling stuff with slime, which changes what goes on over in the sdl window. 05:01:43 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.247.182] has joined #lisp 05:01:47 <_3b> just need to make sure slime can talk to the lisp while the app is running, then run the app and start making changes 05:01:50 i thought you had to invoke slime with a shortcut? 05:01:54 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:02:03 holycow: slime stays running 05:02:08 <_3b> either start the app from slime, or start swank server by hand 05:02:09 oh 05:02:22 huh, totally didn't know that 05:02:34 nm then, i guess it can be done 05:02:36 holy moly 05:02:37 you keep slime running, load your app into slime, and then C-c C-c new things while you compile them. 05:02:41 <_3b> helps to add a bunch of carefully placed restarts to avoid having errors kill the app 05:02:47 aha 05:02:49 holycow: my tutorial takes you through a simplified version of how it works. 05:03:01 holycow, do a search for Marco Baringer's slime video. I can't remember the URL 05:03:03 oh, i didn't catch that, wow cool 05:03:06 sykopomp: i 05:03:08 <_3b> a continue restart around the main loop is good for example 05:03:11 i'll do that tut tonight 05:03:19 wentbackward: danke 05:03:32 Bitte! 05:03:51 wow, well man, this shit is trully magic 05:06:12 haha 05:06:16 I've gotten so used to it. 05:06:26 you guys are fucking crazy 05:06:35 you should check out the redshank video, too 05:06:38 i think i understand why no one uses lisp now 05:06:44 redshank+paredit makes editing lisp code seem like magic. 05:06:59 those that kinda 'get it' kinda just get comfy and stop telling people about it 05:07:04 durka42 [n=durka@d181.mertza.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 05:07:07 damnit, you gotta be showing this stuff to people! 05:07:20 well, for me, I just got tired of getting shit whenever I even mentioned lisp. 05:07:25 well not no one, just the noise is in the other communities 05:07:26 it's sort of a bad word for a lot of people 05:07:36 so I just don't mention it unless they ask what I'm coding stuff in. 05:07:37 fuck that 05:07:39 own the word 05:07:57 Haha, please let them stay there. 05:07:59 don't worry, you'll become bitter too. 05:08:02 own it, fly the flag high, never capitulate to retards 05:08:20 <_3b> nah, just stop talking to people who aren't open minded :p 05:08:26 sykopomp: haha i'm not that far away. i'm an open source dude introducing open source into businesses 05:08:28 I just don't care enough about what they use. I'm happy with lisp, and lisp isn't perfect, so who am I to tell them to switch? 05:08:31 i'm starting to realize that microsoft is right 05:08:34 Just stop talking to people altogether and keep on hacking. -.- 05:08:39 *wentbackward* is against Lisp evangelism. Better just attract the people who have enough energy to figure it out 05:08:46 they are all ungratefull fucks that deserved to be raped like they are 05:08:50 dkcl: that's the best plan, I agree. 05:08:54 i totally get what you are saying 05:09:08 holycow: could we tone down the excitement a bit? 05:09:16 yes :) 05:09:41 sorry, i just had an open office user say to me today: this bug has been oo for yeas. i would expect that if there is a bug that someone is working on it! 05:09:53 i'm like, you didn't pay for it. why don't we hire someone to fix it. 05:10:00 she litterally said: why should i pay for it? 05:10:11 wentbackward: i think you are right 05:10:17 seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has joined #lisp 05:10:17 that makes sense 05:10:38 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 05:11:21 there's really nothing wrong with just liking what you use 05:11:33 java works really nicely for some people. It seems to click for them. 05:11:51 indeed. i'm not against that at all 05:11:59 man. I can't figure out what to hack on right now. I've lost the desire to hack for today. 05:12:00 have to separate Java-the-language (and Java-the-API) and the JVM :-) 05:12:03 i think if everyone used lisp we'd have what java has now 05:12:05 infinite libraries and mass confusion 05:12:20 pstickne: I see where this is going. Bad Clojure troll *swat swat*. 05:12:26 ;) 05:12:28 I've been playing in Clojure recently. It's interesting, but not very good "interactive" support :( 05:12:34 sykopomp: haha :p 05:12:40 sykopomp: and Scala ;-) 05:12:57 ah yes. And Scala. 05:13:07 color me uninterested. ;) 05:13:30 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-202-25.we.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:15:06 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:15:54 *pstickne* colors sykopomp in Color.JAVA. 05:16:12 Nooooo. I'm melting. 05:24:40 Ilgaz [n=ilgaz@95.70.246.232] has joined #lisp 05:25:06 -!- Ilgaz [n=ilgaz@95.70.246.232] has left #lisp 05:26:12 mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has joined #lisp 05:26:49 -!- mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has left #lisp 05:27:18 snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has joined #lisp 05:28:27 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 05:28:47 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:29:28 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 05:33:13 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 05:36:51 cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-43-178.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:03 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["leaving"] 05:39:48 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:52:01 sykopomp, You mentioned you have a tutorial ... does it cover Redshank? 05:52:10 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-181-117-206.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:48 wentbackward: I don't actually use redshank all that much. I haven't gotten myself to really put it to good use :-\ 05:53:14 the only stuff I use is the asdf system generator. 05:54:45 hm. Maybe that's what I'll do tonight -- try and see what i can use more. 05:55:35 Yeah, I'm just having a browse now. Seems like some kind of support for refactoring patterns like the Java folks use. 05:55:51 http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/emacs/redshank/ 05:56:05 Duh: "Minor mode for editing and refactoring (Common) Lisp code." in the code! 05:56:08 the screencast is really impressive, but imo the most impressive stuff is the paredit :P 05:56:24 Yes, big fan of paredit! 05:56:34 can't live without it :) 05:56:59 I should put some time into getting used to emacs' sexp-browsing stuff, too. 05:57:48 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:25 There's a neat feature in Intellij where is keeps stats on the features you've used. You can look for new features based upon some arbitrary 'usefulness' sort order. Really encourages you to keep learning the tools. Wonder if emacs has something similar? 06:00:53 but emacs is too broad, so probably not. 06:01:57 -!- bugrum [n=vedam@c-98-201-95-13.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:02:10 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 06:02:57 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:37 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:37 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:06:53 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 06:08:58 -!- holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:09:19 holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:10:50 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA754.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 06:17:13 -!- drakej [n=fred@216-67-20-72-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:22:51 -!- gzip4 [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:24:03 jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:28:39 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA522.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:31:49 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:34:54 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 06:36:10 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:39:08 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:41:36 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 06:42:07 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.166.53] has joined #lisp 06:42:37 gzip4 [n=xxx@ws102.zone134.zaural.ru] has joined #lisp 06:48:18 ASau` [n=user@host178-230-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:50:59 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:52:20 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Client Quit] 06:54:03 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 06:54:56 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 06:55:35 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 06:56:32 why does (funcall (car '(#'+)) 3 4) give me The value #'+ is not of type (OR FUNCTION SYMBOL). 06:56:35 ? 06:57:21 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:58:45 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@adsl-89-132-7-248.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 06:58:48 because the list is quoted 06:59:06 it's trying to call '#'+ instead of #'+ 06:59:43 this works: (funcall (car (list #'+)) 3 4) 06:59:53 hmm 06:59:56 thanks a lot! 07:00:03 as does (funcall (car `(,#'+)) 3 4) 07:00:14 <_3b> more precicely, it evaluates QUOTE, which prevents FUNCTION from being evaluated 07:00:19 but such is the way of perl ;) 07:00:30 <_3b> '(#'+) reads as (quote (function +)) 07:01:05 you mean (list (quote (function +))) 07:01:06 _3b: OH! 07:01:13 see, that's why syntax's bad ;P 07:01:53 mrSpec [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 07:01:55 Hello 07:01:55 <_3b> or maybe (quote ((function +)) 07:02:24 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-15-207.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:02:25 <_3b> either way, function doesn't get evaluated 07:03:43 <_3b> Phoodus: no, no LIST there 07:05:10 <_3b> the extra () i forgot the first time is what adds the list 07:05:56 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:07:06 what simple lib can I use for 2d graphics (and sound, and user input could be nice)? 07:07:07 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:07:25 <_3b> lispbuilder-sdl? 07:08:42 <_3b> or maybe pal 07:09:00 does enybody know if there is something more lispy then clojure for a jvm ? 07:09:02 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:09:15 *anybody 07:09:16 <_3b> kiuma: abcl lispy enough? 07:09:38 _3b, don't know, I give it a check 07:10:03 <_3b> not sure what is unlispy about clojure though 07:10:28 _3b, the parens :/ 07:10:42 even if I've no experience to judge it 07:11:12 <_3b> ah, so having extra reader macros built into the language is unlispy? :) 07:11:46 _3b, I think (and remark think) that is not CL 07:12:03 that's not necessarily a bad thing ;) 07:12:06 *_3b* may be misremembering though, and clojure may have extra syntax instead of extra reader macros 07:12:07 hmm... I installed cl-sdl in debian, but it errors on compile; any experience on that? or should I just remove it and try fetching lispbuilder's? 07:12:13 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:28 <_3b> kiuma: clojure is definitely not a CL, if that is what you want, abcl should be good 07:12:41 <_3b> Tordek: use lispbuilder 07:12:46 ok 07:13:27 _3b, I'm not scared by new things, just wanted to listen opinion of true lispers 07:13:38 morning. 07:13:43 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.166.53] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:13:50 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@121.13.173.243] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:14:16 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:14:17 <_3b> kiums: clojure does have some nice features, it tries to make concurrency easier by being more functional style 07:14:28 <_3b> *kiuma 07:14:44 I was thinking to use it to resolve problems were I usually would choose rule engine like drools 07:15:10 and to let me use lisp even when I'm obliged to use java :) 07:15:11 -!- mrSpec [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:15:57 <_3b> haven't really used either one, so can't advise further :) 07:17:06 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:22:23 -!- deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:22:26 deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 07:23:07 Ragnaroek [i=54a67999@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-be4d4cacb8e1e466] has joined #lisp 07:26:34 that's awesome... 07:26:45 some package, deep in the hierarchy, is compiled in C 07:26:50 for a 32b machine 07:27:00 and it segfaults here 07:28:41 <_3b> lispbulder-sdl you mean? 07:29:12 lenst [n=user@81-231-250-28-no52.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:29:15 _3b: yes 07:29:31 <_3b> do you have all the sdl libs installed already? 07:29:40 yep 07:30:42 *note to self: do not run things that use X as root* 07:31:11 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:33:58 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:34:04 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:34:31 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:34:37 <_3b> can you tell what it is trying to load/run that is 32bit? 07:34:47 <_3b> (i assume the problem is that you run 64bit?) 07:35:05 _3b: nm, I was just being stupid 07:35:27 I was running lisp as root, and couldn't open a window on X 07:35:38 <_3b> ah, ok :) 07:36:01 and the 32b thing seemed to be a testing package, which I'd like to believe shouldn't cause too much trouble 07:36:52 the simple example from the lispbuilder-sdl page works, except for the missing "sdl:" before "load-image" :P 07:36:56 thanks :) 07:47:19 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 07:47:41 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:04 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:50:28 mrSpec [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 07:55:06 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:57:45 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:58:00 tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 07:58:09 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:06:42 -!- wentbackward [n=wentback@n219077065141.netvigator.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:10:43 -!- lenst [n=user@81-231-250-28-no52.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:11:46 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:24 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.247.182] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:12:34 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:15:31 LostMonarch [n=roby@host60-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:25:51 -!- quotemstr_ [n=quotemst@cpe-67-246-181-235.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [] 08:25:53 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 08:27:17 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 08:30:53 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.189.93] has joined #lisp 08:34:04 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:34:58 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.247.182] has joined #lisp 08:36:46 Beket [n=stathis@adsl-248-188.diodos.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 08:41:00 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6FCEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:41:19 -!- vinleod [n=vince@c-76-105-157-42.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:42:48 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E443AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:24 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-120.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:43:38 -!- Beket [n=stathis@adsl-248-188.diodos.auth.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:46:39 -!- s0ber [i=pie@118-160-167-230.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 08:46:40 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:46:52 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-167-230.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:47 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:02:52 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:07:18 Bacta [n=sjfhghg@unaffiliated/bacta] has joined #lisp 09:07:23 I'M ON A BOAT!!! 09:07:45 what kind of boat 09:08:33 SMALL DINGY 09:08:42 good -- good. 09:08:55 HOW ARE YOU? 09:09:06 can't complain too much. how're you friend 09:09:12 I'M VERY GOOD TODAY!!! 09:09:14 -!- jho [n=jh@unaffiliated/cene] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:09:14 LOL 09:09:16 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 09:09:25 for any particular reason? 09:09:39 ??? LOL ??? 09:09:53 are you on a 6-bit text connection? 09:10:23 I LIKE 2 CHAT 09:10:38 I HAVE A LISP TOO 09:10:53 aum [n=aum@60-234-243-247.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] has joined #lisp 09:11:31 did you know lisp is a programming language, bacta 09:11:48 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:11:50 NO??? I'M A PRODUCT OF THE NEW ZEALAND EDUCATION SYSTEM. HOW WOULD I KNOW THAT? 09:11:53 I LOVE YOU JOHN KEY! 09:12:45 wtf? key's only been in for 4 months 09:13:03 anyway, straying more towards the chan topic 09:13:26 can anyone please recomend an ultra-lightweight, portable, free implementation of lisp or similar lisp-ish language? 09:13:26 KEY LEARN ME TO SPELLED! 09:15:27 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:15:35 kiuma_ [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:15:44 aum - i've had a lot of trouble trying to find something like that. 09:16:47 theoretically at least, a basic lisp subset should be implementable in bugger-all code 09:17:11 bugger-all code? you mean in some lower-level language? 09:17:42 i mean a tiny amount of C, with the rest being written in lisp 09:17:49 fiveop_ [n=fiveop@pD9E6D7D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:56 -!- kiuma_ [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Client Quit] 09:18:02 aum is a Kiwi, you'll have to forgive him 09:18:10 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:18:17 i've just been doing a lot of work on an OO Forth implementation 09:18:18 aum - what about turbozen 09:18:24 *aum* googles 09:18:26 http://www.turbozen.com/sourceCode/TinyLisp/ 09:19:05 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:19:08 isismelting: great except for the *objective* C bit 09:19:19 ah 09:20:06 isismelting: 'bugger-all' means 'almost none', or 'none', or 'very little of' 09:20:19 aum: oh -- okay. you must be british? 09:20:30 isismelting: Australian, living in New Zealand 09:20:35 ah i see 09:20:50 did you watch "summer heights high" 09:20:54 sorry 09:20:56 no 09:21:55 aum - see if this works - http://www.programmersheaven.com/download/16144/download.aspx 09:23:03 Oh god even wrose 09:23:05 *worse 09:23:07 blardy Aussies 09:23:38 bludddy whore strayl yens 09:23:51 heh? 09:24:02 ryan64 [i=ryan@h226.19.36.67.wyan.org] has joined #lisp 09:24:12 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 09:24:23 -!- ryan64 [i=ryan@h226.19.36.67.wyan.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:29:05 'whore stray lya' == 'Australia' 09:29:12 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 09:33:34 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6FCEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:36:42 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:36:57 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:08 is there a way to ensure that any output sent to *standard-output* is always flushed? .. i recall there being something, a variable perhaps, but i've forgotten 09:38:01 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 09:38:49 seeing an interlisp demo: is there a way to made emacs automatically move down and indent long lines like in interlisp? 09:39:21 s/made/make 09:39:40 paredit gets close 09:39:57 but I still find myself manually adding newlines everywhere 09:40:21 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-159.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:41:13 there are ways. that's emacs, after all. I'm not sure someone did that yet 09:47:39 okay 09:47:54 I fear for my academic career if I have to take up emacs coding too :) 09:47:58 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 09:55:30 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:59:22 jho [n=jh@unaffiliated/cene] has joined #lisp 10:03:15 |stern| [n=seelenqu@pD9E44445.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:43 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:13:45 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E443AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:15:05 -!- shizzy0 [n=shane@c-76-105-6-146.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:16:38 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.247.182] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:17:06 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:22:11 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 10:22:18 guille_ [n=user@137.Red-81-33-185.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:24 hello 10:28:09 -!- |stern| is now known as seelenquell 10:33:09 -!- tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 10:33:33 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.148.107] has joined #lisp 10:36:03 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:38:10 rule0 [n=rule0@85.108.196.8] has joined #lisp 10:38:32 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:38:47 -!- holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:39:14 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:39:33 Is there a better way to set a member of a class than (defmethod make-instance :after ((class my-class)) (setf (accessor class) 'foo)) ? 10:40:43 -!- rule0 [n=rule0@85.108.196.8] has left #lisp 10:41:16 <_3b> :initform or :initarg? 10:42:44 _3b: I have a superclass which has a member that I want to set depending on which class inherits it. Without the user of the classes needing to think about it 10:42:59 <_3b> :default-initargs? 10:43:53 wentbackward [n=wentback@n219077065141.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 10:44:02 ah, great. thanks 10:47:19 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-67-89.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:50 ehu [i=5657b052@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-60b939df7b0de383] has joined #lisp 10:50:12 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:50:31 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483A980.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:05 -!- snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:57:45 PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:59:59 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:06:08 -!- PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit ["leaving"] 11:06:22 PissedNumlock [i=resteven@134.184.49.19] has joined #lisp 11:07:57 -!- aum [n=aum@60-234-243-247.bitstream.orcon.net.nz] 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#lisp 11:23:35 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 11:27:10 deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:31:35 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:32:38 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:35:39 -!- seejay [n=seejay@unaffiliated/seejay] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:40:07 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-247-205-254.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:43:03 snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has joined #lisp 11:44:26 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:48:07 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@87.249.9.98] has joined #lisp 11:48:07 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:51:29 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:21 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 11:58:00 <_3b> anyone have some bezier -> quadratic spline code laying around? 11:58:23 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:58 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 11:59:33 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:40 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:49 Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:05:55 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:08:30 (defvar hash (make-hash-table)) (setf (gethash 'key hash) nil) (second (gethash 'key hash)) => nil. how do I check the second value which should be T? 12:09:11 clhs nth-value 12:09:31 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:31 -!- frodef [n=ffj@24.80-203-67.nextgentel.com] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:31 -!- ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@mustang.lysator.liu.se] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:31 -!- luis [n=user@r42.eu] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:31 -!- kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:31 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@e244075.upc-e.chello.nl] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:31 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:31 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:32 -!- vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_nth_va.htm 12:09:32 eirik, "class slot" is the preferred term (as in, much more readily recognized) for what you call a "member of a class" 12:09:32 in the CL parlance, that is 12:09:42 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d181.mertza.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 12:09:43 deepfire: good to know. 12:09:59 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:59 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a67999@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-be4d4cacb8e1e466] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:59 -!- michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:09:59 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:10:02 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 12:10:02 frodef [n=ffj@24.80-203-67.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:02 ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@mustang.lysator.liu.se] has joined #lisp 12:10:02 koning_robot [n=aap@e244075.upc-e.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 12:10:02 Soulman__ [n=kae@Gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:02 kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:02 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 12:10:02 luis [n=user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 12:10:02 vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:06 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 12:10:29 Ragnaroek [i=54a67999@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-be4d4cacb8e1e466] has joined #lisp 12:10:29 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #lisp 12:10:29 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 12:10:29 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:45 stassats: thanks 12:12:27 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a67999@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-be4d4cacb8e1e466] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 12:16:05 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 12:21:45 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has joined #lisp 12:26:09 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-167-230.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 12:30:47 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:35:35 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F05F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:36:02 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F05F.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 12:36:39 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F05F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 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[n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:08:59 -!- Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:09:06 ejs [n=eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has joined #lisp 13:10:01 -!- rule0 [n=rule0@85.108.196.8] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:10:55 -!- chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.161.2.124] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:11:25 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@dpc6745208046.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 13:12:49 -!- snippyhollow [n=snippyho@203.160.1.71] has left #lisp 13:15:04 does anyone have a good read on conditions/restarts? Apart from PCL that is? 13:15:29 I think I need to read another explanation because I still don't get it 13:15:35 http://chaitanyagupta.com/lisp/restarts.html 13:15:36 http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001.html 13:15:44 thanks! 13:16:55 dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:02 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 13:17:06 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.wv.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:22:06 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:22:49 nadan [n=ndan@pool-68-162-129-166.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:04 lichtblau [n=user@pD9542F6B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:24:08 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:29:12 so what u think for learning lisp for one's first language? particularily if ultimately you want to work on a centralized program to carry around tasks on a computer even though linux is C? 13:29:57 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-21-191.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:29:58 <_death> it doesn't matter. what is important is that it's not the only language. 13:29:59 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 13:30:48 -!- Krystof has set mode -o Krystof 13:30:57 <_death> that said, of course I would have liked to learn Lisp earlier in my life.. 13:32:17 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 13:32:44 nadan, http://norvig.com/21-days.html 13:35:45 Davidbrcz [n=david@193.52.24.125] has joined #lisp 13:39:21 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 13:41:21 nis [n=nicolas@88-121-114-89.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:52 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:55 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 13:42:35 -!- ejs [n=eugen@tarelka.tenet.odessa.ua] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:43:09 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:44:59 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-38-249.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:45:00 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 13:46:33 legumbre [n=user@r190-135-11-185.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:50:11 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-179-25.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:51:42 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-95-53-179-102.vologda.ru] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:51:50 ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has joined #lisp 13:52:16 -!- hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279776576.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 13:52:34 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 13:53:44 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 13:53:50 Good afternoon. 13:55:21 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 13:56:14 ejs [n=eugen@220-65-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:18 Smart1234 [i=Smart123@116.68.96.147] has joined #lisp 13:56:41 anyone good at alpha bea pruning 13:56:47 beta* 13:56:58 I hear you can write programs to do that for you 13:57:07 Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:57:13 yes 13:57:14 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:57:28 do you know its algorithm 13:58:21 for checkers 13:59:20 have you tried looking it up in freely-available or library reference sources? 13:59:32 (YAY: 0 files!) 13:59:48 its not there 14:00:01 not any understandble ones 14:00:30 then maybe you need to study harder 14:00:32 then maybe this material is too complex for you? 14:00:41 heh 14:01:41 i dont know 14:02:22 exactly 14:02:32 there are numerous tutorials on the first page of google hits. Have you tried working through them? (Note: not just reading them; you will have to work to understand something new) 14:02:35 do you know the algorithm 14:02:40 ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 14:02:48 pleas 14:03:20 I want to know if alpha nd beta variables applied on all childs of a particlar node are same 14:03:31 or is the a value is applied to the child and it is checked for alpha and then applied for same parent node 14:03:32 Smart1234: please study http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alpha-beta_pruning or some other place for the algorithm, comme back for the implementation in lisp 14:04:35 please clarify my doubt it not clear from docs 14:04:52 please study 14:05:49 -!- ffx` [n=ffx@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:06:10 schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:09:13 Fascinating discussion! 14:09:48 *ehu* should not try to participate today 14:11:17 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-1.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:08 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-148-74.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:35 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 14:12:41 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:13:09 -!- ejs [n=eugen@220-65-179-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:14:58 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 14:16:10 (did I say 0 files? I meant 1 file. Shame) 14:17:56 Still the differences between compiling with SBCL and compiling with CLISP? 14:18:19 plage: ? 14:18:35 ehu: that was a question for Krystof. 14:18:37 is compiling with clisp faster than compiling with sbcl? 14:19:08 i'd love to try it myself, but it fails 14:19:27 Anyway, it's a great pleasure to see all these students working on improving a CL/CLIM/ESA application. 14:20:51 speaking of clim, is there any starting points for understanding mcclim codebase? 14:21:06 Other than the spec? Probably not. 14:21:27 stassats: But the code is pretty much organized like the spec, so that should work. 14:21:36 ok 14:22:42 stassats: If you start with the regions and transformations chapters, then you should be fine. That code is also pretty stable. 14:23:31 oudeis [n=oudeis@62.90.78.42] has joined #lisp 14:24:42 lifp [n=matt0@CPE-60-226-3-65.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:25:03 LIFP Isn't Functional Programming 14:25:29 VB is 14:25:43 i have some code which doesn't work well with clx, but works with gtkairo, and i wanted to investigate it on my own 14:25:58 but get lost in the sources 14:26:04 -!- lifp [n=matt0@CPE-60-226-3-65.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Client Quit] 14:26:15 stassats: so it is not your own code? 14:26:36 er, I didn't mean to imply that that would follow from what you said, of course. 14:27:39 code is mine, i'm lost in the mcclim sources 14:28:07 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:28:28 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 14:28:30 I see. 14:29:08 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:29:17 i'd probably post it to mcclim-devel later 14:30:00 garslo [n=user@69.217.237.247] has joined #lisp 14:31:09 josemanuel [n=josemanu@114.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 14:31:53 -!- Smart1234 [i=Smart123@116.68.96.147] has left #lisp 14:32:39 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:18 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@62.90.78.42] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:34:28 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 14:36:26 yain [n=yain@77.35.234.45] has joined #lisp 14:37:31 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:39:07 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:42 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.210.50] has joined #lisp 14:40:47 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-159.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:41:56 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has quit [Success] 14:41:58 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.210.50] has left #lisp 14:42:01 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.210.50] has joined #lisp 14:42:40 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.148.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:42:48 Lou_ [n=lat@125.167.140.159] has joined #lisp 14:43:39 milanj [n=milan@93.87.152.236] has joined #lisp 14:44:42 oudeis [n=oudeis@62.90.78.42] has joined #lisp 14:45:40 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 14:46:26 -!- fax-machine [n=user@88.238.210.50] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:46:38 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.191.44] has joined #lisp 14:47:15 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:49:00 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-128-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:50:44 hugod [n=hugod@MTLXPQAK-1177744344.sdsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:53:42 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:54:39 s0ber [n=s0ber@114-45-230-146.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:04 hugod_ [n=hugod@MTLXPQAK-1177744344.sdsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:55:37 -!- hugod [n=hugod@MTLXPQAK-1177744344.sdsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:56:16 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Client Quit] 14:56:27 Is (labels) the correct/only way if I want a tail recursive lambda expression? 14:56:49 Can anyone take a quick look and tell me what I'm missing? 14:56:49 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:56:51 Cel pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78362 14:57:09 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:57:12 wentbackward: even with labels, the tail recursion is not guaranteed to be optimized away 14:57:14 SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.137.10] has joined #lisp 14:57:19 -!- hugod_ [n=hugod@MTLXPQAK-1177744344.sdsl.bell.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 14:57:43 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-185.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:58:07 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@114-45-230-146.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:58:19 Cel: iirc, you need to have a lambda instead of the external function, because the handler has to have the same environment 14:58:36 Hun: ok, let me try that 14:58:43 Hun, Oh! Very useful to know that. Thankyou 14:59:21 wentbackward: the manual for your implementation should tell you how to enable TCO. usually it's something like (declare (optimize speed (debug 0))) 15:00:03 Cel annotated #78362 "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78362#1 15:00:14 Hun: no difference 15:00:22 Cel: oops 15:00:23 clhs uses non-lambda example (handler-bind ((error #'trap-error-handler) 15:00:27 read that wrong 15:00:39 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.189.93] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 15:00:41 you have indeed no restart there. use restart-case 15:01:03 what I don't understand is that it's the same example as in PCL, yet I can't get it to work 15:01:33 how do I make a restart active? 15:01:57 clhs restart-case 15:01:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_rst_ca.htm 15:02:53 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:21 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:03:27 -!- plotnick [n=user@96.237.136.127] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03:58 ok, I got it to work with restart-case, but now I still don't understand how handler-bind works 15:04:03 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:54 handler-bind is for connecting conditions to actions or restarts 15:05:04 isn't that what I did? 15:05:18 handler-bind just sets up something to run some code when a condition is signaled 15:05:30 invoking a restart is one thing you commonly do but they are orthogonal 15:05:53 So you need to use RESTART-CASE or RESTART-BIND to establish restarts if you want to invoke them from a handler. 15:05:54 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:06:39 Athas: Are you still hacking on McCLIM/ESA/Climacs from time to time? 15:06:41 Reread the second paragraph of the PCL chapter where it talks about splitting things into three, rather than two, parts. 15:07:12 ok 15:07:16 spiaggia: Nope, not really. 15:07:26 hi, talking about condition and restarts, I had trouble trying to pass to a restart the condition catched in an handler when the restart is invoked interactively by the debugger 15:07:44 anyone knows how to do it in a simple way? 15:07:45 Athas: Any other Lisp code then? 15:08:49 Nope, I mostly write moocode and Haskell these days. 15:08:54 And random Lisp utilities, of course. 15:08:55 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 15:09:03 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F05F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:09:21 gigamonkey: btw, thank you very much for PCL, it's a fantastic book 15:09:42 quotemstr_ [n=quotemst@cpe-67-246-181-235.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:09:58 -!- Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:11:25 *spiaggia* takes off for home 15:11:26 rstandy: Glad you enjoyed it. 15:12:11 gigamonkey: I'm still enjoying it, I just started reading it in random order 15:12:51 gigamonkey: for example the chapter on condition and restarts is really good. I got it even if I'm a Lisp newbie 15:13:16 Cool. I'm proud of that chapter since most Lisp books don't really explain the condition system at all. 15:13:35 gigamonkey: in fact, my problems with condition and restarts are about things I haven't found in your book :-) 15:13:58 ack, I feel dumb now rstandy :p 15:13:58 Well, the question about the debugger is probably implementation dependent. 15:14:46 Cel: no, please, it's normal to get a little confused. You must try the code along the way 15:14:54 I do, it's not working 15:15:12 every example before this one worked perfectly, and I _think_ I get it. 15:15:17 but not this one 15:15:22 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:15:24 gigamonkey: I see, maybe I should encapsulate the condition variable in a closure and pass it to the restart code 15:15:58 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E44445.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:11 Cel: let me see your paste 15:16:20 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 15:16:39 Keep at it Cel! 15:17:01 Cel: I thought you got it working once you added the RESTART-CASE. What's the problem now? 15:17:26 -!- ASau` [n=user@host178-230-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Off!"] 15:18:50 Cel: In fact, you invoked the restart without creating it 15:19:14 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 15:19:27 yes, how do I create it? 15:19:38 did I overlook that in the chapter? 15:20:03 newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.244] has joined #lisp 15:20:19 Look in the section, Providing Multiple Restarts 15:20:23 I'm having that "I'm this close to getting this" feeling 15:20:46 -!- vy` [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:21:11 Or the section "Restarts" earlier in the chapter. 15:21:25 i'm pretty sure that lisp is the first language I've learned where I can take questions from the book I used to learn into irc and have the author of the book answer. 15:21:32 oh, I think I see the problem 15:21:34 there's an upside to a small group. :) 15:22:12 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:57 As a lisp newbie of a sort, I want to say that that chapter was very excellent on describing the condition system. It included a good real-world example for understanding the "Why bother?". 15:23:40 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.191.44] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:23:57 Fade: hehe, yeah, it seems to me that #lisp another awesome feathre of the language :-) 15:24:02 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.191.44] has joined #lisp 15:24:02 *feature 15:24:05 ah now I get it.. lemme recap here just to be sure 15:24:08 definitely. 15:24:11 i use the condition system for implementing break- and watchpoints in a cpu simulator. the watchpoints can be trapping or non-trapping, the trapping ones just invoking the breakpoint restart after firing 15:24:32 restart-case signals the restart, handler-bind handles it (sends it to the right function) and the restart function actually restarts 15:24:39 is that correct? 15:25:09 From my understanding, restart-case doesn't signal. It offers alternatives. The example shows a signal inside the restart-case's form. 15:25:12 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.197] has joined #lisp 15:25:12 How far away from the CMUCL Python implementation is SBCL? i.e. Is the tail recursive optimisation info in the CMUCL manual relevant to SBCL? 15:25:13 I'd say, restart-case *establishes* a restart; handler-bind binds a handler 15:25:37 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 15:25:39 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 15:25:40 yes, ok, better wording :) 15:25:49 What we call a "restart-function" is just a regular function that uses INVOKE-RESTART to, well, invoke a restart. 15:25:59 yeah, the epynomous thing 15:26:18 it makes more sense now 15:26:29 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 15:26:31 More informally: you use SIGNAL (or something else that uses it) to signal/raise/indicate a condition. 15:26:40 thanks gigamonkey, it's not often you get the chance to ask the author of a book for more help :) 15:27:00 Handlers that have been bound (via HANDLER-BIND) will have an opportunity to handle/see/deal with the signaled condition. 15:27:11 -!- Bacta [n=sjfhghg@unaffiliated/bacta] has quit [Client Quit] 15:27:26 providing you defined them with restart-case 15:27:28 wentbackward: 95% relevant, according to the sbcl manual 15:27:42 Restarts that have been bound (via RESTART-BIND or RESTART-CASE) provide one thing that handlers could possibly decide to do. 15:27:52 No, handlers are not restarts. 15:28:20 Handlers can be useful even without restarts. 15:28:21 handlers from the restarts bound with restart-{bind,case} 15:28:21 hmm, that's what I read, but I remember reading that, maybe 2 yrs ago. Is the code kept in sync in any shape or form? 15:28:24 I was confused on page 241 at first... the way the author is using restart-case here is interesting. He checks OUTSIDE it if there is an error condition, and if there is, he invokes restart-case directly, signalling an (error). 15:28:26 that's how I should say it? 15:28:37 s/from/for 15:29:25 But the check for an error could have been in the first form of restart-case. 15:29:31 I should play with this some more, until I understand it better 15:29:37 wentbackward: no 15:30:07 *grumble* I still am having problems with the whole invoke restart and all. There's a quote in the book: " As written, the skip-log-entry restart function assumes that a skip-log-entry restart 15:30:07 has been established 15:30:34 How does one establish the restart? I mean, I defined it, called it with invoke-restart, but nada 15:30:44 TDT: restart-case 15:30:46 yeah, you forgot the restart-case, as I did 15:30:53 in the other function 15:31:07 (the parse-log, log-analyse, whatnot names can confuse you) 15:31:19 newlisper: you could probably invert that function so the whole IF expression is inside the RESTART-CASE 15:31:30 I don't remember if there's a particular reason I wrote it that way. 15:31:51 gigamonkey: Which way is it more commonly done? 15:31:58 newlisper: dunno. 15:32:08 Yeah, I will admit this chapter has been pretty difficult for me to follow unfortunately...been on it for weeks, read other research papers..just isn't clicking enough. 15:32:20 Thanks though, cel and gigamonkey - I'll look at restart-case 15:32:47 http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Condition-Handling-2001.html 15:33:01 Yeah, that's the research paper I'm reading as well 15:33:02 have a look at this paper. it helped me clearing things up 15:33:25 Krystof, Thanks, I should probably not be lazy and actually check manually how my code is being optimized! 15:33:59 wentbackward: you might be interested in sb-ext:describe-compiler-policy 15:34:11 that might give you hints as to what possible transformations might be happening 15:35:50 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[afk] 15:38:54 TDT, Cel: here's something to think about. signaling conditions happens down low; handlers are bound up high; restarts are low or in the middle. 15:39:30 (as in low or high on the stack; if FOO calls BAR, FOO is higher on the stack than BAR) 15:39:53 Mmmmm, maybe "on the stack" isn't the best way of saying that. 15:39:55 #+stack-grows-downward-not-upward 15:40:10 lol 15:40:31 But anyway, if FOO calls BAR and BAR calls BAZ then FOO is "higher-level" than BAR and BAZ is the "lowest-level" function. 15:40:37 Krystof: #!+ ;) 15:40:44 heh, yes 15:41:10 *gigamonkey* has confused the best minds in Lisp hackery. His work is done. 15:41:13 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:03 *Cel* is a little more confused than before 15:42:19 Krystof, that's very useful. Indeed there are differences to the CMUCL manual. 15:42:30 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 15:43:29 Cel: that's good. being confused is an important state before getting it :) 15:43:42 -!- ltriant [n=ltriant@202.136.38.162] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 15:43:46 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:45:13 The high level functions establish a general policy by binding handlers: "When you see a malformed log entry, skip it." 15:45:32 The lowest-level function signals the condition: "I've just seen a malformed log entry." 15:45:52 The low or middle level function provides the mechanism, by providing a SKIP-ENTRY restart. 15:46:40 gigamonkey: that explanation (from your book) really helped me "get it" 15:46:54 -!- dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:47:21 Note in this example that the restart needs to be established in the function that is *calling* parse-log-entry while parse-log-entry is the function that would signal the condition. 15:47:24 I know that's good and clear, but isn't that the wrong way round for programming? 15:47:39 Krystof: was that to me? 15:47:45 yes. 15:47:53 Why do you say so? 15:48:12 step 1) "what possible actions can I take here in the event of exceptional circumstances in my callees" 15:48:25 step 2) "what possible exceptional circumstances can I encounter" 15:48:39 step 0) write your programs bottom up. 15:48:41 ;-) 15:48:42 step 3) "what is my general policy" 15:48:59 step 1) what possible exception circumstances can I encounter 15:49:26 step 2) what can I do to recover from exceptional circumstances in my callees 15:49:29 step 3) same as before. 15:49:32 Krystof: Isn't it up to the documentation of that particular function to provide you with all that function's outputs, including possible restarts? 15:49:40 true. But you can't know what kinds of exceptional circumstances you encounter until you write the low-level function 15:49:52 Krystof, do you have to write it waterfall-style? 15:49:55 basically I think I agree with you that step 3 comes last 15:50:03 as you elicit your requirements, you could modify the underlying steps. 15:50:08 well, sure 15:50:25 believe it or not, I understand the principle of incremental program development :-) 15:50:32 And step 2 and step 1 are somewhat decoupled. For instance in the PCL example the restart is SKIP-ENTRY 15:50:38 Krystof, stop the presses! 15:50:51 Which is not particularly tied to the underlying condition of MALFORMED-LOG-ENTRY 15:51:14 gigamonkey: I think I agree; it's our step 3 that I think basically has to come last 15:51:17 Krystof, and I was just being slightly sarcastic. because I presume you know how to write software. so it was more to try to troll, i.e. is it an issue in practice? 15:51:22 So when writing the middle function you just have to say: "What do I want to do if my callees fail in any way at all." 15:51:29 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-128-47.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 15:51:46 tic: no, demonstrably this is a difficult subject to get across to newcomers; see the previous couple of hours of discussion 15:51:58 I'm wondering whether there are ways to make it clearer 15:52:12 Maybe an incremental example? 15:52:15 Krystof, oh, I'm out of context here. Sorry! I was assuming non-newbies. 15:52:34 that might be indistinguishable from "trolling" apart from intent 15:52:56 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [lem.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:55:13 The other key point, of course, is that there doesn't have to be a single general policy. 15:56:04 I actually have a longer way of explaining the condition system but it involves a fair bit of discussion of invariants, blah, blah, blah that I couldn't figure out how to get through quickly enough to make it useful for PCL. 15:56:26 For people who aren't totally put off by that kind of stuff, it would probably be a better explanation. 15:56:54 that sounds interesting 15:56:58 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@dpc6745208046.direcpc.com] has quit [] 15:58:03 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:58:30 well, you can always add bits at least to the web-book, surely? :) 15:59:05 rsynnott: actually I don't want the web version to diverge from the print edition. 15:59:25 ah 15:59:35 But I have thought about writing up something about conditions separately. 15:59:39 Just need time to do it. 16:00:09 a companion book would be nice. ;) 16:00:36 *antifuchs* sends patches to marijnware 16:00:45 postmodern and st-json are pretty awesome 16:01:17 gigamonkey, you could write a book about conditions, format and loop. 16:02:51 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:03:46 It doesn't seem to be conditions that present a specific problem, I think it's that restarts actually require some fundamental level of understand of Lisp, that trips people up. 16:04:00 *TDT* votes on a book just on conditions 16:04:27 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-128-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:04:35 drewc has a hack to implement shift/reset using conditions, which is interesting. 16:04:42 Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:04:45 "conditional common lisp" (: 16:04:55 or, wait. unconditional common lisp (: 16:04:55 Maybe http://danweinreb.org/blog/what-conditions-exceptions-are-really-about can help shed some light. 16:07:21 I think the thing that would help th emost is just a really good example. 16:07:48 Something that shows handler-case, handler-bind, restart-case, restart-bind being used - full runable examples. 16:07:57 also, haha, apparently drawing the benchmark canvases takes about a second in my webkit browser. this is a vast improvement over the one minute that the current graph generation takes (: 16:07:58 TDT: maybe you could take the code from Chapter 19 of PCL and just fill out the undefined function. 16:08:21 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:08:44 it isn't flickr-grade super-speed (they demand 250ms), but it should be good enough (: 16:08:45 e.g. define WELL-FORMED-LOG-ENTRY-P and define a LOG-ENTRY class. 16:09:21 <_3b> antifuchs: make it slower but show incremental progress and pretend it is a feature :) 16:09:26 haha 16:09:31 gigamonkey: Yeah, I've been kinda doing that, and creating my own examples - it's someting I look forward to click and when it does I'm gonna feel dumb it tok so long :) 16:09:40 _3b: actually, I plan on doing precisely that 16:10:32 it's browser canvas painting / javascript engine slowness, so I'm confident this will get much faster over time, and I won't have to do anything (: 16:11:08 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:11:12 -!- garslo [n=user@69.217.237.247] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:11:46 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:12:07 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:13:39 TDT, When it does, you'll have understood a whole lot more than just conditions. These things take time to assimilate. 16:13:40 Krystof: odds are 1) you've probably thought of this or 2) it's completely irrelevant, but wasn't there some recent patch about ~W on sbcl-devel? 16:13:47 kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 16:15:24 wentbackward: yeah, that's why I'm not really annoyed by the time this is all taking 16:15:48 wentbackward: I have a feeling this is one of the most important things I should understand about CL in general. 16:15:49 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:57 gandhijee [i=akp@host-66-202-34-165.spr.choiceone.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:28 kreuter: herep 16:18:05 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 16:19:47 -!- kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:21:27 kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 16:22:46 hugod [n=hugod@bas1-montreal50-1279776576.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:23:47 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 16:24:25 -!- aking [n=aking@207.210.78.49] has quit ["leaving"] 16:24:53 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:32:32 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.96.75] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 16:32:53 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@62.90.78.42] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:35:33 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-15-207.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:35:40 Good evening. 16:35:55 morning 16:36:01 welcome home, beach. 16:36:11 tic: Thanks! :) 16:36:34 *tic* sends beach a big chunk gruyère. 16:37:07 tic: Are you having some? 16:37:19 beach, indeed I am. 16:37:48 I have some reel good English Cheddar, which is hard to get here as it turns out. 16:38:39 You wouldn't think so. I've stacked up on cheeses for the weekend, which I plan to enjoy. 16:38:52 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F05F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:07 tic: Good plan. I'll go to the store tomorrow. 16:40:07 tic: France has very good food, but the French are surprisingly little open to food from elsewhere. 16:44:09 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E44445.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:54 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:49:55 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.124.71.204] has joined #lisp 16:53:04 is there some good tutorial about serving directories with hunchentoot? 16:53:46 I know I can search it, but if there is some awesome tutorial I would like to read it first 16:55:58 HET3 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 16:56:00 -!- HET2 [n=diman@128.131.95.41] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:32 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:57:56 -!- HET3 is now known as HET2 17:03:51 rstandy: I don't know if that's directly supported by hunchentoot. When I thought about doing something like that, I figured it was just a matter of creating a dispatch function to match the URL path for that directory and then present a display related to what I can read from the real directory. 17:04:10 rstandy: It -might- be unimplemented in order to allow you to choose how the browsing looks. 17:04:39 newlisper: do you have some sample code to poit me at? 17:05:04 rstandy: Are you already familiar with how to return a webpage? 17:05:32 newlisper: basically I need to create a dispatcher which shows only if there is an authenticated session and which permits to downlad some files only to authenticated users 17:06:07 newlisper: not much, but I tried cl-who in the context of using the Weblocks framework 17:06:11 rstandy: And you want to present a list of downloadable files by looking for those in a particular directory? or a set of directories? 17:07:14 newlisper: maybe a set of directories, there is that much difference? 17:07:19 rstandy: Okay, for file manipulation, I'll recommend the osicat package. 17:08:03 rstandy: Again, I don't know what the best way is or if the way is already implemented. These are just my thoughts on how I would implement it in my ignorance. :) 17:08:14 newlisper: Oh thanks, I'll take a look at that package 17:08:21 rstandy: So I would set up a regex dispatch function to handle the set of dirs. 17:09:01 newlisper: uhmmm, I just really need some sample code to setup a session dependant dispatch 17:09:02 -!- kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:10 rstandy: Haven't worked with sessions yet. 17:09:15 newlisper: which goes away when the session expires 17:09:21 newlisper: oh ok 17:09:47 newlisper: many thanks anyway for your suggestions :-) 17:09:50 rstandy: I just figured that boiled down to (if this-user-is-authenticated (present-dir-page) (present-no-dirs)) 17:10:53 newlisper: I see. maybe I should do something like that and find a way to say to hunchentoot: delete this dispatch when the session is over. 17:10:56 kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 17:11:29 rstandy: Hey, if you do get something of a directory/file browser written (authentication is a seprate issue), I'm sure folks will want to see that if you want to add it as a separate package to cliki or something. 17:11:41 s/seprate/separate 17:12:25 newlisper: heh, well, if I get something not too horrible, I will surely share it 17:12:28 rstandy: It will be nice to have something to plug in in the short term before rolling out a personalized one. 17:12:49 -!- kuhzoo1 is now known as kuhzoo 17:13:04 newlisper: Yeah, In fact, I hoped there was already something like that 17:13:06 rstandy: Heheh, I wouldn't worry about it being too horrible. :) You would have wanted a similar technique to get the big picture and then modify it to suit your needs anyway. 17:13:43 mxb [n=mxb@bealbywm.plus.com] has joined #lisp 17:14:44 valvola [n=fabiovio@host158-255-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:14:57 newlisper: the irony is that there is a link in the hunchentoot web page which links to a "hunchentoot-dir-lister" 17:15:04 newlisper: but the page is down 17:15:14 jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has joined #lisp 17:15:17 newlisper: archive.org? 17:15:20 Just re-read Athas' post on the <- macro. Classic. 17:15:25 newlisper: Quit talking to yourself. 17:15:30 rstandy: archive.org? 17:15:39 newlisper: yeah, my next plan is to search it :-) 17:15:42 The icing on the cake is the sole comment: "pg didn't invent macros ..." 17:16:35 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 17:17:39 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 17:18:27 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:18:32 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:02 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-1.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:37 hey guys, where can i go to get a good intro tutorial to lisp? 17:21:28 minion: pcl 17:21:29 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 17:21:39 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:03 and on o'reilly safari, if you have a subscription 17:22:22 o'reilly and lisp?.. 17:22:36 wonder of the world. got added end of 2008 17:25:06 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-7-29.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:25:25 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:12 falco650 [n=falco650@alicia.combios.es] has joined #lisp 17:28:33 ... 17:29:43 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:29:57 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-15-207.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:30:01 -!- beach` is now known as beach 17:30:26 -!- falco650 [n=falco650@alicia.combios.es] has left #lisp 17:30:50 I was just going to ask what falco650 was trying to tell us. 17:31:34 is there something i can read online till i get the books? 17:31:50 minion: tell gandhijee about PCL 17:31:50 gandhijee: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 17:32:19 o, 17:32:30 i see, its avail online as well as dead tree, sorry bout that 17:33:12 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 17:34:15 -!- _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:35:30 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit ["zzz"] 17:35:43 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-50-91.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:37:21 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-7-29.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:37:25 -!- beach` is now known as beac 17:37:38 -!- beac is now known as beach 17:38:39 dinendalelanesse [n=dinendal@adsl-144-80-38.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:13 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:46:39 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable085.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:46:54 dto [n=user@pool-98-118-1-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:21 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:47:54 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.124.71.204] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:48:38 -!- valvola [n=fabiovio@host158-255-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:50:49 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-126-223.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:51:06 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-50-91.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:51:10 -!- beach` is now known as beach 17:52:05 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable085.189-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:52:32 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:04 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 17:56:20 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 17:56:28 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:34 thom_ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:04 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:57:15 Is there a function other than READ-FROM-STRING (which is rather too powerful) that will convert a string representation of a float to the corresponding float? 17:57:42 minion: parse-number 17:57:42 minion: parse-number? 17:57:42 parse-number: parse-number is a Library of functions which accept an arbitrary string and attempt to parse it into one of the standard Common Lisp number types, if possible, or else it signals an error of type invalid-number. http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 17:58:51 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:59:00 blbrown_lt [n=blbrown@34.sub-70-214-106.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:15 How can I get a version of an asdf system? 18:00:30 asdf:component-version? 18:00:43 Thanks, pkhuong. And a good license too. 18:00:54 (asdf:component-version (asdf:find-system :cl-ppcre)) => "2.0.1" 18:01:24 stassats: lnostdal: thanks! 18:01:57 cads [n=max@adsl-152-93-63.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:01 Is there a convention for naming the "hidden" implementation package related to a package? 18:03:02 The only way to do the version check is writing my own code, right? Does the asdf has the function to check the version of depending systems? 18:04:04 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:04:18 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.146.208] has joined #lisp 18:04:35 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:04:42 tomoyuki28jp: it should have means of checking versions 18:05:11 stassats: oh really? like how? 18:06:01 -!- cads [n=max@adsl-152-93-63.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:06:06 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 18:06:35 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:06:55 GrayShade [i=GrayShad@79.117.184.197] has joined #lisp 18:07:40 slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1D7B5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:29 -!- spec[afk] is now known as mrSpec 18:10:34 cads [n=max@adsl-152-93-63.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:05 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-148-74.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:45 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:14:55 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-47-156.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:15:00 tomoyuki28jp: i guess, :depends-on ((:version "cl-ppcre" "2.0.2")) 18:15:36 -!- HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:15:37 stassats: I will try that one, thanks!! 18:16:09 nvoorhies_ [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:00 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:17:36 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 18:17:47 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-126-223.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:17:51 -!- beach` is now known as beach 18:18:08 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.146.208] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:21:55 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 18:22:22 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 18:25:32 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.146.208] has joined #lisp 18:28:01 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:28:45 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@116.4.146.208] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:46 manic12_ [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:42 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:33:20 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.87.152.236] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:34:33 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:37:33 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-64-210.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:38:06 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-47-156.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:38:10 -!- beach` is now known as beach 18:38:17 *jcowan* repeats, or actually doesn't, the question about hidden implementation packages. 18:38:55 name-internal ? 18:40:07 jao` [n=jao@obfw.oblong.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:18 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:52 Hello, has anyone embedded ECL in a C program? 18:42:20 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-173-39.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 18:43:07 -!- jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:05 *_3b* remakes an old xach classic : http://www.3bb.cc/tmp/vtest.swf 18:45:51 WarWeasle: i have not done it personally, but it should be very easy as ecl was initially thought to be mainly embedded and has only recently been moved into being a full standalone implementation. did you try it? 18:45:55 where is the original? 18:46:31 <_3b> stassats: http://www.xach.com/img/lisp.swf 18:46:58 Well, I'm trying to set stdout and stderr to variables inside ECL. I'm making an apache mod_ecl 18:47:02 <_3b> hmm, mine doesn't loop... wonder how you do that 18:47:07 tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:14 -!- jao` is now known as jao 18:47:21 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.162.137.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:47:57 SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.204.98] has joined #lisp 18:48:37 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:49:49 <_3b> wonder if adding support for other backends would slow vecto down enough to notice 18:50:57 special (as in dynamic scope) functions would probably help with the dispatch ;) 18:51:58 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 18:52:05 <_3b> seems like most of the stuff i'd want to replace is fairly high level, so might not be too bad 18:52:19 stassats: Thanks 18:53:17 H4ns: sooo, if I read the explanation by Gary Byers right, then something in hunchentoot (or its dependencies) may be creating a string-output-stream and using it across threads 18:53:17 <_3b> would be nice to not have to think about API for drawing things :) 18:53:34 Fade: actually, the shift/reset hack (which i really just stole from pkhuong's work), uses CATCH/THOW, and doesn't require the condition system :) 18:53:43 H4ns: which causes badness with a shared freelist 18:54:04 rvirding [n=rvirding@c-4f667b4a-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 18:54:13 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p5DD1D7B5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:54:17 _3b: there are no credits! 18:54:30 where's the shout-out to euclid? 18:56:11 <_3b> antifuchs: heh, i think i need a bit more work before i can do a remake of that one :) 18:56:17 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:56:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 18:56:32 H4ns: that is what i read from his explanation, too, but i'm not aware of such sharing. i will investigate a bit, hold on. 18:56:57 H4ns: yeah, I couldn't find any irregular use of string-output-streams in ht itself 18:57:07 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:36 <_3b> my .swf lib is still mostly in the (make-instance 'foo-tag ...) stage, API-wise 18:57:36 drewc: still doing catch/throw instead of consing closures up eagerly? 18:57:52 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:58:11 <_3b> (except for a partial hack to hook it into vecto) 18:58:18 antifuchs: i just love threads! 18:58:26 I love shared mutable state 18:58:54 actually, I'm wondering if this sort of problem wouldn't be better to solve with a per-thread freelist 18:59:20 antifuchs: are HT's threads long lived enough for that to work? 18:59:30 worker threads, no 18:59:42 may slow down things too much, granted 19:00:03 but its string output thing isn't really high-performance anyway (for that you use send-headers (-:) 19:01:26 I know a bit about threads, UNC, UNF, UNS, metric, acme etc. 19:02:30 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:03:12 antifuchs: i fail to find anomalies in output string stream usage in the dependencies. i guess i'm going to ask gary if he has any hints how the culprit could be tracked down. 19:03:32 I think he gave a hint in the first mail he sent 19:03:43 anybody know a lot (or even a little) about McCLIM's output recording machinery? 19:04:07 you could wrap the char-writing method in a lock, and assert that aquiring the lock succeeds without blocking. 19:04:17 (and the stream-closing method, I suppose) 19:06:13 graphics-state objects seem like the only way to extended output-records 19:06:16 antifuchs: ah, nice. can you do that? 19:06:18 -!- UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 19:06:35 pkhuong: yeah, space/speed tradeoff i suppose. 19:06:36 I'll try... I have no idea how openmcl's locks work, but that will change rather (: 19:06:38 soon 19:06:58 antifuchs: the multiprocessing stuff in ccl is easy to work with. 19:07:26 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E44445.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:07:37 drewc: I considered stack allocating closures that would cons up heap-allocated closures as needed. 19:08:15 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:41 drewc: ahh. I thought it was built on the condition system intrinsically. 19:08:53 H4ns: cool. I'll see what I can find out tomorrow 19:09:52 pkhuong: oooh, i hadn't considered that.. best of both worlds like. 19:11:39 md1 [n=user@stip-srk131.195-146-143.telecom.sk] has joined #lisp 19:12:03 rvirding_ [n=rvirding@c-4f667f28-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has joined #lisp 19:12:47 -!- rvirding_ [n=rvirding@c-4f667f28-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has left #lisp 19:12:50 Fade: see http://eval.apply.googlepages.com/stackhack4.html for the real trick behind it. 19:13:51 actually, no, today (: 19:14:25 -!- newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.244] has left #lisp 19:16:39 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-111-244.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:17:10 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-64-210.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:17:15 -!- beach` is now known as beach 19:17:30 beach, you hack mcclim, right? 19:19:08 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:35 are all the mcclim folks sleeping? 19:23:45 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 19:23:47 oh wow. this involves a lot of ccl internals (for one, the lack of a string-output-stream backing class that I could add a slot to). tomorrow it is, I think. 19:24:54 eno___ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-173-224.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:06 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-025-060.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:49 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:25 Anyone interested in a module for apache that uses ECL? I'm making good time at the moment and am deciding if I should bother releasing it. 19:28:24 manic12_: It happens. Why? 19:28:40 WarWeasle: release it, someone can find it useful 19:28:44 put link on cliki 19:29:06 I'm trying to wrap my head around output recording 19:29:20 Ok, then it isn't a completely stupid idea. 19:29:35 manic12_: Ah, easy stuff! What is your problem? 19:29:42 drewc: thanks for the link 19:29:43 WarWeasle: surely not, why it should be? 19:29:46 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@c-4f667b4a-74736162.cust.telenor.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:29:52 seems like a graphics-state is the only place to put a gl list and a gl name 19:31:26 md1: It might be a repeat of another project or it might be done more simply. 19:31:42 the concept of output recording (or gl command recording) is already figured out with gl lists 19:32:03 -!- thom_ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:32:31 WarWeasle: so, what? the more choices the better. 19:32:39 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A4C4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:32:55 and if you put a glPushName & glPopName around it and render it again (when in select mode) you can get hit records 19:33:18 md1: Thanks, you just made my day. :) 19:33:25 manic12_: gl = OpenGL? 19:33:31 yes 19:33:53 WarWeasle: anytime :) 19:34:01 manic12_: I am afraid I know nothing about OpenGL. Sorry :( 19:34:17 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@moa.colgate.edu] has joined #lisp 19:34:28 ok, but you know about output recording? 19:34:41 is it possible to run an old sbcl (0.9.x) with <200mb ram? (a virtual server with debian etch (which i can not upgrade i think)) 19:34:42 I do yes. 19:35:16 is a custom graphics-state mixin the "way" to extend this or can I use my own class of output records? 19:35:23 manic12_: are you with cl-opengl? 19:35:33 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:35:48 no 19:36:02 I just swiged the header files and am using that 19:36:39 manic12_: I've been trying to submit a patch for like a month. Oh, I tried that and got overwhelmed. 19:36:44 (I don't want to maintain CFFI just to work on this) 19:37:01 manic12_: I can't remember, and it's too late at night to figure out. Bug me some other time or count on someone else. Sorry! 19:37:10 ok 19:37:40 WarWeasle: tried what, SWIG? 19:37:54 manic12_: SWIG and OpenGL. 19:39:11 manic12_: I remember having to manually edit a lot of it. 19:39:12 It took me about an hour, I reused the old .i files from Allegro 19:39:21 manic12_: DOH! 19:39:37 -!- jho [n=jh@unaffiliated/cene] has left #lisp 19:40:04 once you get the hang of swig though, it becomes a lot easier 19:40:40 manic12_: I'd like to chat but I have to watch the baby and do laundry. Talk to you later? 19:40:47 sure 19:41:36 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Cute Cute baby."] 19:43:25 manic12_: it would be useful to have some means to store/cache backend-specific data in an output record, but currently there isn't one (which is fortunate, because this could help performance even under things like CLX). mcclim always replays output records by repeating the basic drawing calls to the medium. 19:43:56 I mean to say unfortunate. Anyway, unless your basic drawing functions are already reasonable working, that seems like premature optimization. 19:44:09 -!- GrayShade [i=GrayShad@79.117.184.197] has left #lisp 19:44:12 I'm not optimizing 19:44:22 -!- SandGorgon [n=user@122.163.204.98] has quit [Client Quit] 19:44:46 I actually must use some sort of output recording mechanism, (practically) 19:45:01 pardon if I skimmed the scrollback too quickly, but weren't you discussing compiling output records to opengl display lists? 19:45:47 I was kind of pondering the idea of makeing an output record type which has a mixin for a gl list 19:46:06 because really that's all you need 19:46:21 (and Names for more advanced stuff) 19:46:38 that is an optimization. 19:46:45 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-52-244.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:46:58 ok 19:47:11 <_3b> display lists are deprecated anyway :p 19:47:28 well, opengl is deprecated. 19:47:30 what have they been replaced with? 19:47:34 long live opengl. 19:47:41 <_3b> VBOs mostly 19:47:49 what should I use Direct3d? 19:48:10 <_3b> if you want wide sopprt on windows, yes :( 19:48:53 I want to use windows for the time being, not necessarily forever 19:49:16 *_3b* uses opengl even on windows, but then i don't care if everyone can run my code or not :) 19:50:13 let's just talk about raster text for a minute 19:50:26 all you need is a display list 19:51:09 <_3b> or a geometry shader 19:51:30 I type (format application-pane "Hello") 19:51:35 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:51:49 well, no, you need to ability to render and display text. 19:51:49 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:51:56 is that something that should be supported in McCLIM 19:52:06 I have that ability 19:52:33 but in order to activate the render context, I must be in the thread that realized the mirror 19:53:56 lichtblau: ever get anywhere with win32 qt? 19:53:59 <_3b> so have a render thread? (or deal with multithreaded GL stuff) 19:55:02 -!- schoppenhauer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:55:06 schoppen1auer [n=schoppen@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:55:06 I was thinking about mp:process-interrupt to make the list and repaint to show it, but somehow that seems kludgy 19:55:52 the tilde key in slime seems to be bound to some slime function, how do i fix this? 19:55:56 the process-interrupt that is 19:56:05 <_3b> yeah, sounds ugly 19:56:17 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-149-1.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:56:53 <_3b> why not wait til it gets to the GL thread to make the list? 19:56:57 I can make a display list on some kind of background context and use copy-context to make the list available to the other process 19:57:20 Nash [n=nash@194.45.110.65] has joined #lisp 19:57:54 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 19:58:05 sounds like a better idea _3b, mechanically how would I do that? 19:58:16 return a closure? 19:58:32 (to a display record?) 19:58:59 then either call the closure or the list when repaint comes along? 19:59:11 <_3b> i'd have guessed that there was some internal data structure at a higher level than GL commands, and just queue that up somewhere 19:59:37 everything is done wrt a render context 19:59:56 render contexts go hand in hand with threads 20:00:16 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.179.197] has joined #lisp 20:01:03 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:09 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-111-244.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:09:10 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:09:21 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 20:09:31 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-75-139.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:10:06 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has left 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[n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:27:42 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-127-22.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:29:43 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-52-244.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:31:30 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:05 -!- beach``` is now known as beac 20:34:26 -!- beac is now known as beach 20:35:46 -!- ehu [i=5657b052@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-60b939df7b0de383] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:37:54 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:39:27 enodran_ [n=enodran@208-78-98-174.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:31 16.4.2 20:40:20 -!- blbrown_lt [n=blbrown@34.sub-70-214-106.myvzw.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:42:13 antifuchs: ping 20:42:14 manic12_: not sure I follow your question. 20:43:37 ejs [n=eugen@237-253-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:47 (perhaps because I don't know if it is asked with the user or implementor hat on) 20:46:34 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@moa.colgate.edu] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:47:53 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-75-139.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:21 manic12_: if you look at the macro generate-medium-recording-body (and def-grecording), you can see how it works - the drawing functions check whether drawing and recording is on (via stream-[drawing/recording]-p), and act accordingly 20:48:50 -!- enodran [n=enodran@208-78-98-174.slicehost.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:48:54 -!- enodran_ [n=enodran@208-78-98-174.slicehost.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:49:24 antifuchs: have you seen rme's remark regarding bordeaux-threads? 20:50:28 manic12_: when drawing on a stream is enabled, the corresponding drawing operation is performed on the underlying medium, so that the drawing is visible immediately. from a backend implementor's perspective, all you have to implement are drawing methods for the medium (see medium-draw-...), and output recording should work magically on top of it. 20:51:24 how would I avoid the situation where immediate drawing occurs, because that will segfault if called from another thread 20:51:25 ? 20:51:55 draw-text for instance is a function not a gf 20:52:27 so I can't do an around method and bind stream-drawing-p to nil 20:52:55 manic12_: you don't implement draw-text, you implement medium-draw-text, and you do it in such a way that it can be called without crashing (whatever that entails) 20:53:52 is there a dynamically bound symbol which tells me I am inside a handle-event? 20:54:17 no, but I don't see how that's relevant 20:55:00 I just asked because then I can check to see if it's inside a handle event and then it knows it's safe to make the render context current 20:55:19 -!- Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:55:35 thank you very much for the explanations though 20:55:41 what platform and lisp implementation are you using, again? 20:56:01 allegro on windows (x64 if that matters) 20:57:50 ah. can't you use a mutex to control who has the rendering context? or just ignore it and deal with the single-process case to get started? 20:58:15 that's a good idea 20:58:29 -!- cads [n=max@adsl-152-93-63.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Success] 20:58:48 also though, grabbing the render context should not happen for every medium-draw... call 20:59:34 I guess I can put it in the begining of the handle repaint 21:00:05 the is probably a function where you can ask the render context if it is current 21:01:53 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:03:10 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 21:03:44 deech [n=deech@71-10-166-226.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:22 -!- rread_ [n=rread@nat/sun/x-8aac05db0aa7cce2] has quit [] 21:05:23 beach` 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[n=shelta@shpd-78-36-179-25.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 22:47:55 Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 22:50:25 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:50:31 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:43 fax-machine [n=user@88.238.210.50] has joined #lisp 22:51:29 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:00 somewhere in the tcl docs, i read that tcl drops the win32 support, does anyone know if its true? 22:53:05 anyway 22:56:23 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 22:56:27 i want to save sbcl core as executable with save-lisp-and-die, how can i set this exe to hide sbcl console and instead show the gui i prepared? 22:57:10 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:57:25 phadthai [i=mmondor@66.11.161.166] has joined #lisp 22:57:55 use appropriate :toplevel argument 22:58:45 i've searched for it with no result, i hope sbcl has a function like corman's (save-image "filename" function :console nil :executable t) 22:58:48 hmm 22:58:54 :toplevel? 22:59:04 yes 22:59:21 thanks, i'll look for it 22:59:38 (slad "filename" :toplevel #'function :executable t) 22:59:48 -!- Balooga [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has left #lisp 23:00:57 :toplevel 23:00:57 The function to run when the created core file is resumed. The default function handles command line toplevel option processing and runs the top level read-eval-print loop. This function should not return. 23:01:00 :) 23:01:06 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 23:01:10 that's it, thanks :) 23:01:10 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:01:16 devsforev [n=ryan@ool-43520654.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:21 i wonder how did i succeed in not seening the first keyword in the referance. 23:02:35 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has left #lisp 23:03:15 and one more question: is there a way to bind an icon to the sbcl exe i created 23:04:12 or other stupid staff like splash screen etc :) it's not important though 23:04:20 windows had some resource editors which could do that 23:05:58 -!- beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-65-233.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:21 fax-machine: icon can be done through resource editor, the rest is done in code even in "normal" apps :) 23:06:50 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 23:06:50 it's just that it might be stored as resources, as is the case with certain GUI toolkits for windows 23:07:21 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-128-47.netcologne.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:08:00 *stassats* remembers his seemingly distant windows past 23:08:10 hmm, thanks for detailed answers 23:09:26 Good evening everyone. I am currently writing a sudoku program in clos. I represent the rows in the board using 1-9, and the columns using A-I. I want users to be able to enter a move in a syntax simlar to "(b3 5)" to put the value of 5 in the row 3, column 5. 23:09:50 i wish i can totally switch to linux but because of the software i've to use for architecture, i'm stuck between linux and win all the time :\ 23:10:27 clearly making a method for every possible combination of rows and columns is not practical since they are all going to do essentially the same thing. any advice on this matter? 23:10:29 devsforev: why not (setf (cell 'b3) 5) ? 23:10:33 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-128-47.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:10:59 or "b3" 23:11:15 -!- dinendalelanesse [n=dinendal@adsl-144-80-38.mia.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 23:13:10 kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 23:13:10 -!- fiveop_ [n=fiveop@pD9E6D7D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 23:14:02 stassats: I chose to model my sudoku board by having abstract "regions". If you know about the game, I would consider the top-left (of rows 1-3 and cols A-C). Each region contains an association list of the cells and values of them. 23:14:27 I also want to keep the "user syntax" as simple as possible, in order to allow people not familiar with lisp to just play the game 23:15:21 that you will be making in the user interface 23:16:15 stassats: any good sites on how to make user interfaces in lisp? I am quite familiar with lisp, but have never made a UI for it before. 23:17:09 devsforev: text interface: read user input, parse it, take some actions 23:18:20 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:18:22 hmm, i tried (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "foo.exe" :toplevel #'ltk::very-simple-gui :executable t) and i dropped to the low-level debugger with "fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 876: GC invariant lost, file "gencgc.c" line 860" 23:18:45 ahhh. excellent. i'll see what i can come up with. thanks stassats 23:18:54 fax-machine: must be that infamous kitten of death 23:18:57 to recurse in CL, do i just call the function name in the function or do i need to do something fancy 23:19:08 -!- kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:14 jimi_hendrix: nothing fancy 23:19:40 i couldn't get it :\ 23:19:55 fax-machine: sbcl isn't well working on windows 23:19:58 kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:57 hmm, there are lispbuilder-sdl and ltk binaries loaded in core, might it be a problem related to any of them? 23:21:53 stassats, ok 23:22:26 i forgot that #'very-simple-gui is a button with (format t "sdfs") 23:22:57 maybe the error is related to formatting output from hidden console? 23:23:07 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:23:25 jimi_hendrix: and if you are using local functions, you must use labels, not flet 23:23:54 no i am not 23:24:01 fax-machine: GC problems suggest that it's more complicated 23:31:09 stassats: GC probably stepped on a mine 23:32:02 it was frightened by the kitten of death 23:32:09 or it got set a bomb... <--- I find that codewars-like explanations explain VM very well.... 23:36:48 i unloaded the lispbuilder and cleared the "format t" from the button command, it worked 23:37:59 but both gui and console shows up when i run exe 23:38:26 you mean repl? 23:38:28 toplevel worked in opening the gui but i couldn't make it hide the console 23:38:31 yes 23:38:39 are you sure? 23:38:45 both repl and gui shows up 23:39:47 _8david [n=user@pD954229D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:41:00 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:45:45 I'm not sure if it's not something concerning type of executable on windows... 23:46:46 <_death> it's just a bit in PE header 23:48:07 tweek__ [n=tweek@host-5-159-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:39 is there an easy way to copy an instance of a CLOS class? 23:49:07 <_death> "copy" is ambiguous 23:49:13 deep copy 23:49:40 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:00 <_death> how deep? I think you'll need to write it yourself 23:51:39 well, okay, how to copy a bitvector? 23:52:10 <_death> there's copy-seq.. it may do what you want it to do 23:52:22 could I just pass in the existing members as arguments to make-instance and expect that things will work out? 23:52:47 <_death> if you don't know the answer, no 23:56:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 23:56:56 -!- lichtblau [n=user@pD9542F6B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:57:34 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 23:57:48 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp