00:01:30 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-24-166.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 00:04:22 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-184.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:04:42 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-184.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 00:04:45 JohnnyL [i=IHadToWr@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:07 -!- X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has left #lisp 00:09:07 oudeis [n=oudeis@92.61.225.162] has joined #lisp 00:09:09 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B75C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:27 -!- Hansel [n=chatzill@cpe-66-65-25-217.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 00:09:33 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["c YA!"] 00:12:32 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-2.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:12:45 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:15:02 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 00:16:20 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:17:26 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 00:19:59 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:20:54 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-241-16-192.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:05 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-241-19-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:23:20 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-164.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 00:23:21 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus_ 00:25:25 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:26:21 thanks 00:26:33 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-71-246-212-254.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:41 fusss: there's a good Xah too? 00:30:12 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:59 <_3b> is it possible to muffle just "; note: deleting unreachable code" in sbcl, or is compiler-note the minimum granularity? 00:32:17 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:33:52 <_3b> or are there better ways to avoid that message from deep in a macro? 00:35:30 _3b: run the halting solution on the preceding code, and don't output the code to be deleted if it returns "no" 00:36:30 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.78.105] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:36:37 -!- JohnnyL [i=IHadToWr@ool-182f0b98.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 00:37:00 <_3b> S11001001: heh, don't need to solve unsolveable problems, just get at least as good an answer as sbcl... still a bit more work than 1 compiler note justifies 00:38:03 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B75C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:39:55 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-118-192.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:41:29 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:44:32 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-38-130.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:46:03 Zen_Clark [n=user@99-136-80-191.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:45 Has anyone here ever used the Eclipse window manager? 00:49:30 <_3b> Zen_Clark: why, are you doing market research? 00:50:28 _3b: No, I'm just trying to get an idea of the amount of specific knowledge in this channel. 00:52:56 <_3b> usually works better to just ask a question (and have some patience waiting for an answer) 00:53:11 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:55:51 *_3b* wouldn't reall assume 'has ever used' correlates all that strongly with 'can help diagnose a problem with', assuming that is the goal 00:57:11 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-36-114.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:57:29 Zen_Clark: ask anything you want, just don't expect an answer 00:58:03 *fusss* has a habit of discovering a solution as he presses ENTER after typing an stupid question 00:58:19 <_3b> fusss: nah, not anything... don't ask for permission to ask, don't ask if people use things :) 00:58:23 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:59:10 and don't ask if hunchentoot's new acceptor class makes you look fat 00:59:59 -!- zekriad [n=bombshel@doc-24-32-162-50.leesville.la.cebridge.net] has quit [] 01:00:27 I'm not needing to have a problem answered, just a general question. I would've just asked, if it weren't for the appearence of the programs lack of usage. 01:01:50 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-118-192.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:03:07 <_3b> you should just ask anyway, trying to guess in advance if people know the answer just wastes time :) 01:03:35 O.k. 01:03:59 Is there a way to set up a desktop image when running just Eclipse? 01:05:02 sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:06:03 -!- Zen_Clark [n=user@99-136-80-191.lightspeed.rcsntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Its later then I thought... 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03:16:13 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:41 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:22:00 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:09 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:27:11 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:33:54 isomer [n=isomer@modemcable219.159-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:34:50 jlf`: didn't someone reply to that exact same question from you yesterday? 03:35:02 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:36:34 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:37 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:37:02 -!- dkcl is now known as dkcl` 03:37:07 -!- dkcl` is now known as dkcl 03:37:47 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 03:38:07 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:29 -!- dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["leaving"] 03:45:56 pkhuong: yes, but his suggestion did not prove to be fruitful 03:47:33 xuanwu__ [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:31 dkcl [n=dkcl@86.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 03:50:02 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Client Quit] 03:50:48 dkcl [n=dkcl@86.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 03:51:07 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:55:39 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student167-193.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 03:57:40 -!- roark [n=roark@student167-244.hampshire.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:03:02 spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-1d09bb971ea83df9] has joined #lisp 04:03:14 -!- spradnyesh [n=pradyus@nat/yahoo/x-1d09bb971ea83df9] has left #lisp 04:05:57 -!- xuanwu_ [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:13:02 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:17:38 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 04:18:30 -!- isomer [n=isomer@modemcable219.159-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:19:13 -!- xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:45:04 roark [n=roark@student166-155.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 04:47:29 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-151-39.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 04:54:10 I just submitted a bug to sbcl via the mailing list and wonder why they don't use a bug tracker. It seems efficient as is but can anyone elaborate? 04:54:33 -!- legumbre` is now known as legumbre 04:54:35 DeusExPikachu: you can use launchpad 04:54:48 <_3b> they have one, it just isn't quite official yet 04:54:56 tcr put a bunch of time into porting existing bug reports (including one of mine) to launchpad, but as _3b says 04:55:02 ah, just like their git 04:56:39 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.141.228.75] has joined #lisp 04:58:46 -!- ASau [n=user@95.84.29.149] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:03:59 <_3b> should (progn (defmethod foo ()) (defmethod bar () (foo))) cause a style warning for undefined function FOO when compiled with C-c C-c? 05:11:13 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-4-14.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:56 -!- beach`` is now known as beach 05:14:20 Good morning. 05:14:50 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@119.141.228.75] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:19:38 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:19:47 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:19:56 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:23:58 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:27:38 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:28:07 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:28:20 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:01 -!- ilitirit_ is now known as ilitirit 05:37:03 morning. 05:37:07 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:37:10 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 05:39:41 adityo [n=adityo@59.183.27.161] has joined #lisp 05:40:10 hello tic 05:44:31 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:53:16 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250022.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:55:51 c|mell [n=cmell@y192025.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 06:02:54 ooxwo [n=user@dsl093-174-240.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:53 In hunchentoot, what is the distinction being made when some parameters have a * after them and some of them don't? 06:04:59 as in, (remote-port*) vs (user-agent) 06:12:26 <_3b> looks like * means that is the version you should use 06:12:50 <_3b> (at least based on http://www.weitz.de/hunchentoot/#script-name and similar paragraphs in other sections) 06:12:58 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-52-157.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 06:13:29 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-52-157.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 06:22:14 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 06:22:35 -!- hyperboreean [n=hyperbor@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit ["leaving"] 06:26:45 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-68-32-124-6.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:28:05 -!- adityo [n=adityo@59.183.27.161] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 06:34:31 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [Client Quit] 06:35:09 nostoi [n=nostoi@16.Red-81-38-53.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:37 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-139-230.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 06:38:38 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:39:18 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 06:39:20 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 06:39:51 hello 06:39:52 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 06:43:28 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 06:44:08 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:45:35 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 06:47:12 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:49:16 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@16.Red-81-38-53.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 06:49:31 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 06:52:27 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 06:52:43 -!- xan_ is now known as xan-afk 06:54:42 -!- HET2 [n=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:56:15 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.157.39] has joined #lisp 06:57:04 -!- poet [n=tsally2@fermat.cse.uiuc.edu] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 06:57:30 -!- jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-15.hampshire.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:03:16 wentbackward [n=wentback@n219077065141.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 07:03:40 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-906.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 07:04:47 wentbackward_ [n=wentback@n219077065141.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 07:05:00 -!- wentbackward [n=wentback@n219077065141.netvigator.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:05:47 -!- wentbackward_ [n=wentback@n219077065141.netvigator.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:06:01 wentbackward [n=wentback@n219077065141.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 07:08:57 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6EDC0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:38 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-71-246-212-254.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:11:29 adityo [n=adityo@59.183.27.161] has joined #lisp 07:11:39 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:12:13 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 07:13:25 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 07:13:56 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:14:55 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 07:17:37 -!- segv__ is now known as segv 07:19:26 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 07:19:54 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[afk] 07:20:49 -!- ooxwo [n=user@dsl093-174-240.pdx1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:57 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:23:18 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 07:25:31 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 07:28:01 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 07:32:26 mega1 [n=mega@pool-02fc4.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:37:42 -!- wentbackward [n=wentback@n219077065141.netvigator.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:37:50 wentbackward [n=wentback@n219077065141.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 07:42:29 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 07:48:23 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-184.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:49:07 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:41 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 07:49:59 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6EDC0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 07:50:49 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:51:46 HET2 [n=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 07:52:59 adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.22.170] has joined #lisp 07:55:05 Good morning. 07:55:54 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 07:56:27 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit ["Stopping IRC chat... [OK]"] 07:58:28 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 07:59:25 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:01:25 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [] 08:06:39 -!- adityo [n=adityo@59.183.27.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:08:34 -!- HET2 [n=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:14:54 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 08:20:41 -!- holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:23:21 holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:25:27 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:32:07 HET2 [n=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 08:35:23 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-4-229.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 08:35:36 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-906.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:37:40 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:37:50 tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 08:39:24 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 08:48:19 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:49:06 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 08:50:06 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:50:20 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 08:50:36 splittist [n=dmurray@192-41.76-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:50:38 morning 08:51:23 splittist, you talked about provide/require yesterday. do you have an accompanying text? 08:54:12 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-69-3.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 08:55:02 tic: Not with me, if at all. I'd check out the XCVB materials to see if I was just dreaming. 08:58:40 Although a quick look at http://common-lisp.net/project/xcvb/doc/TODO.html doesn't enlighten. 08:59:31 Ragnaroek [i=8f5df982@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-48baa907fbc64e0e] has joined #lisp 09:00:19 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:03:24 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-69-3.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:06:14 splittist, alright. was just curious. 09:07:25 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:11:04 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3BA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:41 cracki [n=cracki@46-051.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 09:13:44 Eleanore [n=el@128.243.253.217] has joined #lisp 09:16:49 mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:20:39 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 09:21:40 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:22:40 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 09:23:15 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 09:23:40 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:24:07 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:29:53 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-121.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:30:26 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 09:31:33 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 09:36:01 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:36:13 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 09:37:19 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-183-24.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 09:37:44 -!- cracki [n=cracki@46-051.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 09:38:36 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 09:38:41 G'day 09:40:13 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:42:26 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 09:42:50 Yo plage 09:42:59 Yo Athas 09:43:13 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3BA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:43:34 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:45:06 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:49:06 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BC91.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:37 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:59:49 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 10:00:59 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@adsl-76-230-233-248.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:01:02 nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.230.233.248] has joined #lisp 10:04:23 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:04:33 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 10:11:10 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-116-220.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:15:14 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:15:31 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 10:15:59 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:16:22 splittist: what's up? 10:19:31 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-33-30-8.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:19:46 chpln [n=chpln@ppp121-45-157-74.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:42 -!- Eleanore [n=el@128.243.253.217] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:24:58 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-69-3.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 10:36:58 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 10:37:14 hello 10:40:29 hello fe[nl]ix 10:40:38 hi plage 10:42:39 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-69-3.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:42:40 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has joined #lisp 10:43:19 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-69-3.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 10:45:23 *splittist* thinks Ikea furniture that requires hammering in 24 nails is missing the point 10:46:28 cracki [n=cracki@46-051.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 10:46:28 plage: is "butineur" really the official translation of "browser" ? 10:47:02 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:48:27 -!- Ragnaroek [i=8f5df982@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-48baa907fbc64e0e] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 10:49:35 fe[nl]ix: we use "navigateur" 10:50:01 fe[nl]ix: for a web browser, at least. Perhaps for a file browser as well. 10:50:21 fe[nl]ix: There is no such thing as "official translations". 10:53:00 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [""Nichts mehr.""] 10:53:15 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 10:57:40 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:58:07 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 11:00:43 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-69-3.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [No route to host] 11:01:18 fe[nl]ix: I recommend http://www.wordreference.com/, in this case http://www.wordreference.com/enfr/browser says "navigateur". But I like flâneur as well. 11:03:22 CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.112.190] has joined #lisp 11:04:40 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp025.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 11:12:39 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:12:52 scriptdevil [n=scriptde@122.164.75.89] has joined #lisp 11:13:35 -!- scriptdevil [n=scriptde@122.164.75.89] has left #lisp 11:16:18 plage: Thanks for that link. I'm a student of French and I've been looking for somewhere to find translations of the more technical terms. 11:16:30 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A684.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:16:47 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 11:17:46 Aankhen``: Yeah, I find it quite good. 11:18:05 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:18:16 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-72.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:20:11 plage: isn't there? You mean l'Académie has not pronounced on this matter? 11:20:42 Xof: They don't have any official rôle that I know of. 11:21:06 Xof: Nobody dictates what terminology we use in our teaching for instance. 11:21:21 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:16 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:22:17 Xof: As I recall, their own website says that their rôle is essentially descriptive. 11:24:12 that's true, but they still produce an "official" dictionary, don't they? 11:24:16 it's descriptive yet official 11:26:05 Xof: I guess it depends on how you interpret "official". 11:26:48 Ragnaroek [i=8f5df982@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d29ce61fce1a1903] has joined #lisp 11:27:18 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:27:20 dto3 [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 11:28:39 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-02fc4.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:31:31 -!- Ragnaroek [i=8f5df982@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d29ce61fce1a1903] has quit [Client Quit] 11:31:49 mega1 [n=mega@pool-02e57.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:33:55 Ragnaroek [i=8f5df982@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3c7e29fa763cc32d] has joined #lisp 11:35:33 -!- nvoorhies [n=nvoorhie@76.230.233.248] has quit [] 11:35:47 ReDAeR [n=robert@ip4da2abf5.direct-adsl.nl] has joined #lisp 11:40:26 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 11:41:13 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:41:40 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:43:40 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 11:44:34 -!- Ragnaroek [i=8f5df982@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3c7e29fa763cc32d] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 11:44:42 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:45:19 Ragnaroek [i=8f5df9e2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4a23854da25cc8ab] has joined #lisp 11:49:54 s0ber_ [n=s0ber@114-45-227-252.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:09 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:52:10 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-4-229.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:52:43 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@y192025.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:53:05 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:01 c|mell [n=cmell@x250046.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:54:29 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@220-136-227-69.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:09 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:56:31 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:22 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:20 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:00:54 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:03:06 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:15 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-122-126.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:03:51 good afternoon 12:05:45 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp025.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:05:59 hi mvilleneuve 12:07:17 -!- HET2 [n=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:07:28 -!- dto3 is now known as dto 12:07:51 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-99-208.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:09:52 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-49-130.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:09:59 dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:08 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-43.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:10:13 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-234-101.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:14 -!- dtangren [n=dtangren@c-76-125-177-14.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:12:18 beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-96-130.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:13:04 hi beach-with-many-accents 12:13:50 Stupid service provider. I think I'll change. 12:14:02 seems rather annoying, yeah. 12:14:08 how about a screen on your work 'puter? 12:14:10 Could someone please kick all those beaches? 12:14:34 tic: ? 12:15:14 spiaggia, screen + irssi. 12:15:21 -!- ReDAeR [n=robert@ip4da2abf5.direct-adsl.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15:59 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:16:26 tic: not sure I see how that wold work. 12:16:28 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@114-45-227-252.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:16:32 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 12:16:48 Anyway, coffee time! 12:20:16 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-38-130.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:20:19 a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has joined #lisp 12:22:01 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:23:38 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-205-202-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 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[n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:58:06 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 13:00:17 nis [n=nicolas@91-165-132-107.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:28 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:34 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:08:58 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-38-156.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:09:17 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-38-156.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:59 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:57 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:14:25 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:14:31 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 13:14:36 smarf [n=smarf@79.107.77.57] has joined #lisp 13:15:40 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:16:06 -!- dkcl is now known as DrDickle 13:17:11 -!- DrDickle is now known as dkcl 13:18:53 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 13:20:03 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:20:23 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 13:23:23 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:23:41 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:45 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-38-156.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:25:58 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-38-156.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:26 Newer [n=Newer@89.2.129.221] has joined #lisp 13:26:53 hello 13:27:01 -!- nis [n=nicolas@91-165-132-107.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:27:54 xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:15 Newer: I suppose it's superfluous to ask if you're new around here 13:28:30 I see, that's why nobody answer 13:29:02 fe[nl]ix: depends. He could be newer than the Alps 13:29:06 If everyone said hello to everyone, all you'd see was an IRC full of hello's 13:29:26 closette is very handy for stack overflows 13:29:26 what's wrong with that? 13:29:43 gc is going infinite now 13:29:43 300 lines of "hello" seems pointless and disruptive 13:29:55 Newer: no, you are fine. Do you have any question or are you just haning out? 13:30:11 *hanging 13:30:51 -!- ajhager [n=user@adsl-75-19-178-246.dsl.bltnin.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:31:29 well, I got a class, with attribute which are other class instances, I would like to know how to "access" them when they're already "created", to use them in an instance of my new class 13:31:48 (sorry if its not clear, my english level is not that high ) 13:32:13 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:32:32 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:33:56 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:34:01 Newer: So for instance you have an instance of bicycle in the variable B and you create an instance of of person and put it in the variable P, and now you want to assign the bicycle to the vehicle slot of P? 13:35:05 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit ["leaving"] 13:35:11 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:18 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:38:21 (I guess not) 13:38:26 Newer: If what you're asking is not what spiaggia said, you can try again in french. You should always try to speak english on this channel, but if it fails, there is quite a number of people here who will understand. 13:38:41 Ow, i realize that my problem is not here...My brain is a little bit slow, I will think about my real problem and come back, sorry for the waiting 13:39:11 Is that so evident that I'm french :/ 13:39:27 Well thanks for the answer, i gonna think about it 13:39:28 One could probably trace your IP 13:40:37 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:41:06 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-32-161.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 13:41:11 nis [n=Nicolas@91-165-132-107.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:38 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250046.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:42:41 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 13:44:49 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:45:04 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:52 -!- nis [n=Nicolas@91-165-132-107.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:46:03 -!- xuanwu__ [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:46:06 nis [n=nicolas@91-165-132-107.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:03 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-234.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:49:56 c|mell [n=cmell@x250058.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 13:50:44 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:51:56 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:52:19 adityo [n=adityo@59.183.2.252] has joined #lisp 13:54:19 she_wolf_roxx [n=user@81.80.128.31] has joined #lisp 13:56:56 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 13:57:02 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1E5D4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:35 hi everyone! im looking for a function to reduce the number of digits after the floating point of a float number (e.g. (foo 2.1234 2) => 2.12), does it exist? cannot find it on the hyperspec, thx in advance 13:57:36 segv [n=mb@p4FC1CC75.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:54 clhs truncate 13:57:55 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_floorc.htm 13:58:08 she_wolf_roxx: see ^ 13:58:43 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 13:59:21 ill try it, thx a lot! 13:59:35 <_3b> also, floats don't have digits, maybe you want to print them with fewer digits instead? 14:00:05 yeah, something like that 14:00:06 -!- legumbre [n=user@r190-135-33-186.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:12 she_wolf_roxx: Then use FORMAT. 14:01:14 clhs format 14:01:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm 14:02:56 jgracin [n=jgracin@78-0-214-46.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:03:32 gonna try, thx a lot 14:03:32 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:03:46 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3BA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:01 -!- smarf [n=smarf@79.107.77.57] has left #lisp 14:05:34 -!- she_wolf_roxx [n=user@81.80.128.31] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:06:46 -!- legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-32-161.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:06:50 legumbre` [n=user@r190-135-32-161.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has joined #lisp 14:07:03 -!- adityo_ [n=adityo@59.183.22.170] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:08 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:28 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 14:12:54 Hi again, so my problem is that I have a list of bicycle, which is a class in my program. While creating a person, i must complete the vehicule slot with one of these bicycle. I would like to know how to put the right bicycle instance in that vehicule slot. Do i need to make another make-instance with the attributes of the bicycle? That's seems bad 14:13:41 <_death> just reference the existing instance? 14:13:49 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:14:00 willb [n=wibenton@wireless62.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:14:31 Yes , but i dont know how 14:14:35 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 14:14:44 <_death> clhs nth 14:14:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nth.htm 14:14:50 Greetings! 14:15:17 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3BA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:16:45 Newer, How do you know which person is associated with which bicycle? 14:17:12 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-133-184.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:17:28 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 14:17:45 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslt091.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:17:49 -!- CyberBlue [n=yong@60.26.112.190] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:17:58 the user specify the attributes of the bicycle for the "new" person 14:17:59 'morning 14:18:07 (thx for the link _death) 14:18:36 Buganini [n=buganini@security-hole.info] has joined #lisp 14:19:22 So assuming you know which bicycle it is in the list, do you now know how to assign it to a slot in person? 14:20:44 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:21:04 I should make the instance of person first, then (setf (slot-value 'vehicule 'person) x) ? 14:21:54 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-234.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 14:22:03 Yes. Although depending on how the person class is setup, you could also specify the bicycle during make-instance 14:22:40 like (make-instance 'person :bicycle my-bicylce) 14:22:47 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 14:25:07 Ok but, as i dont know where exactly is the good bicycle, i wanted to do a loop verifying each parameters of the bicyle in the list, so I think i'll do that a make this with the slot-value affectation when i find the good one 14:26:06 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-38-156.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:26:18 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-38-156.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:39 I can do a (let my-bicycle) with an empty value for the initialisation, then setf my-bicycle too, can't I? but is there one which is better than the other one 14:26:54 Yes, you can. 14:27:23 You may want to create a little function that searches your list of bicycles for the one the user selected. 14:28:11 Which one is better really depends upon what information you have at the time of creating the person object 14:28:52 Ok , thx ! That helped me a lot 14:29:16 -!- davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:30:16 emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:30:42 -!- chpln [n=chpln@ppp121-45-157-74.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:31:31 oh, but that (let ((my-bicycle))) would be unnecessary. Just leave the slot empty until you have something to put in it. 14:34:45 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:34:58 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-218-0-98.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:35:40 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-38-156.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:35:53 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-38-156.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:32 sepult_ [n=buggarag@87.78.130.75] has joined #lisp 14:41:03 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@87.78.130.75] has quit [Client Quit] 14:41:58 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-27-43.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:42:57 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-130-75.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:43:12 milanj [n=milan@79.101.149.99] has joined #lisp 14:44:07 snippyhollow [n=snippyho@tkbn103153.catv.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:45:18 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:46:50 -!- xan_ is now known as xan 14:47:59 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-234.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:48:14 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has joined #lisp 14:49:52 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 14:51:09 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:51:21 sacamano_m82 [n=user@210.211.191.225] has joined #lisp 14:51:42 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 14:53:00 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@78-0-214-46.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:53:18 -!- Newer [n=Newer@89.2.129.221] has left #lisp 14:53:19 -!- snippyhollow [n=snippyho@tkbn103153.catv.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has left #lisp 14:58:47 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:00:17 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:01:30 ziarkaen [n=ziarkaen@88-108-126-11.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 15:04:37 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 15:10:24 newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.244] has joined #lisp 15:12:10 athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has joined #lisp 15:12:45 -!- emacsphan [n=user@p5131-ipbfp301otsu.shiga.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:16:41 kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 15:17:22 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:17:22 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:38 trebor_d` [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 15:17:42 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 15:17:52 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:18:32 -!- aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:20:36 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 15:21:57 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-234.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 15:22:55 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:24:13 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:28:52 -!- creddy [n=daman@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:21 LostMonarch [n=roby@host114-245-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:29:37 p0a [n=user@athedsl-4409990.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:29:45 Hello 15:30:04 Hey yhere, p0a. 15:30:06 I'm reading "practical common lisp" and I'm trying to understand how to fix macros 15:30:35 p0a: What's wrong with them? 15:30:43 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:30:53 p0a: you mean how to *debug* macros ? 15:31:08 fe[nl]ix: How to fix *my* broken macros 15:31:14 Yes, perhaps debug :-) 15:31:17 http://paste.lisp.org/display/78107 15:31:32 This is a silly macro I wrote, I'm aware that the notation is not implemented correctly 15:31:43 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:32:01 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:32:15 I understand that multiple evaluation can be fixed with variables that keep gensyms that keep the values of each parameter, but I haven't been successful yet to implement them 15:32:34 p0a: Mixing optional and rest arguments is confusing. 15:32:47 tmh: is it invalid or just confusing? 15:33:09 p0a: I'm pretty sure it's invalid. 15:33:13 I'll check. 15:33:19 no, just confusing 15:33:55 The first next param gets consumed by the &optional params, and the remaining are in &rest, right? 15:34:02 Yes 15:34:18 It doesn't sound so confusing to me to be honest :? 15:34:43 Regardless, can anyone help me or give me a hint how to write this avoiding multiple evaluation? 15:34:47 I can show my attempts if that helps 15:34:53 Yeah, okay, if you want to skip the optional parameter you have to supply a nil. 15:35:12 That is why it is confusing. 15:35:34 -!- Ragnaroek [i=8f5df9e2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4a23854da25cc8ab] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:36:03 I can document that the function requires y to be supplied if z is supplied 15:36:09 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:36:18 p0a: (let ((x (gensym))) `(let ((,x ,y)) (foo ,x))) 15:36:43 Zhivago: That seemed to be the case to me but unless I'm doing something wrong that I don't see, this doesn't work 15:36:46 I'm going to post my attempt 15:39:03 http://paste.lisp.org/display/78107#1 15:39:47 I used with-gensyms for convenience, I've tried without it and it still doesn't work 15:40:20 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBAC6C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:40:21 Why don't you use c? And in which respect does it not work? 15:40:49 Look at the macroexpansion and see why it is surprising to you 15:41:18 I had a mistake (if ,z where c had to be used if that is what you were referring to 15:41:36 HET2 [n=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 15:41:57 The macroexpand-1 is so annoying to read, the output is filled with gemsym names 15:42:52 Is it because I can't use ,@ with gemsym? 15:43:28 <_death> you can pass a string to `gensym' to serve as a prefix 15:43:58 <_death> the purpose of the macro isn't clear, though.. 15:44:29 The purpose of the macro is to allow a certain mathematical notation 15:44:36 <_death> also, check out `once-only' 15:44:43 p0a: is a gensym a list? 15:44:44 ie it's supposed to turn a list (a b c d e) to (b (d c e) a) 15:44:47 <_death> p0a: there are many infix macros 15:45:12 Zhivago: No, a gensym is a symbol I believe, a name 15:45:49 _death: I can imagine this, I was writing my own for fun :-) 15:46:06 p0a: So, what is c bound to, due to with-gensyms? 15:46:28 c is bound to a gensym, and the gensym to the body list 15:46:43 p0a: No. The gensym is not bound to anything here. 15:46:51 p0a: You're trying to splice in a symbol as a list. 15:46:54 <_death> p0a: well, I think a better approach is to write a function to transform an infix expression to a prefix one, then have a macro that would call it 15:47:06 It sounds like you want to use a nested backquote. 15:48:05 Zhivago: Where can I learn more about nested backquotes? 15:48:12 e.g., `(let ((,a '(1 2 3))) `(,',@a)) 15:49:04 <_death> p0a: you may want to look at Alan Bawden's "Quasiquotation in LISP" 15:50:04 (if ,b (if ',c (op (,b (op ,',@c) ,a)) (,b ,a)) ,a)))) 15:50:07 That doesn't seem to work 15:50:14 _death: I'm going to look at this 15:50:31 hollo [n=overrent@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 15:53:15 manic12_ [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:50 p0a: Hmm, you do know what 'nested' means, right? 15:55:07 Yes, you meanm that there's going to be more than one backquote in the expression, '(a '(b)) 15:55:41 -!- HET2 [n=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:56:07 HET2 [n=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 15:57:01 -!- HET2 [n=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Client Quit] 15:57:33 Those aren't backquotes ... 15:57:36 I think one of the problems is that I try to call a gensym as a function 15:57:47 (defmacro f (x z) (let ((y (gensym))) let ((,y ,x)) (,y ,z)))) 15:57:49 HET2 [n=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 15:58:03 For example, with this, (f - 1) does not expand to (- 1) as I expected it 15:58:18 -!- HET2 [n=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:58:19 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:19 That's just gibberish. 15:58:28 I'm sorry I'm just trying to understand 15:58:40 Then you need to learn how to cut and paste. 15:59:34 hmm you're right 15:59:38 I tried what you said and now it expands correctly 15:59:49 but now I encountered the problem I was just now describing 16:00:38 (macroexpand-1 '(f - 1)) expands to (let ((#:GX -)) (#:GX 1)), but it doesn't give the result -1 (like (- 1) would) 16:01:16 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:01:58 -!- adityo [n=adityo@59.183.2.252] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:02:46 Forget gensym -- you need to learn how to use backquoting. 16:03:01 (let ((x '-)) `(,x 1)) <- what does that expand to? 16:03:08 bbiaw 16:03:30 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.132.164] has quit ["leaving"] 16:03:43 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 16:04:13 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.132.164] has joined #lisp 16:04:29 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:04:38 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.132.164] has quit [Client Quit] 16:04:53 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:05:52 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 16:05:54 Zhivago: '(- 1) 16:06:17 but it's different if I change '- to - 16:07:21 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:08:52 sphex [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:09:46 -!- sphex_ [n=nobody@modemcable185.138-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:10:39 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:13:21 -!- tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 16:13:30 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:53 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-64-175-33-111.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:15:15 -!- xuanwu [n=xuanwu@c-98-223-235-49.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:16:04 tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:40 *splittist* wonders what historical (mis)steps led to PEEK-CHAR's argument ordering. Apart from the lack of keyword args, that is. 16:19:58 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-69-3.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:20:50 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 16:22:04 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:23 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:27:11 Zhivago: I still don't get it so when you're available please highlight my name 16:28:59 p0a: yes, because '- evaluates to a symbol, and - evaluates to the value of the lexical or special variable named - 16:29:26 ah of course 16:29:33 It makes sense 16:29:50 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:24 deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:31 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:41 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:50 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:33:41 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:33:43 I can understand that 16:34:03 (defmacro f (&optional x) (let ((y (gensym))) let ((,y ',x)) ,,y 1)))) 16:34:09 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D3F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:34:41 I meant (defmacro f (&optional x) (let ((y (gensym))) `(let ((,y ',x)) (,y 1)))) 16:34:57 This won't work with (f -), I thought it'd expand to (- 1) but it doesn't work that way 16:35:56 it would expand to (#:G123 1) 16:36:22 Yes, but that is not the intent 16:36:37 How can I assign the name of a function to a gensym and then replace the gensym by that namE? 16:36:38 well you don't need let at all 16:36:40 why do you think you need the gensym? 16:36:47 or the gensym, indeed 16:36:58 I don't, but whta if 'x' was evaluated twice 16:37:08 then you would 16:37:12 but you don't, so why worry? 16:37:12 nugd as (,y (,y 1)) which would be (- (- 1)) 16:37:21 But, well, my actual code does this 16:37:25 and this is just a simple example 16:37:25 er, how would that be "evaluated twice"? 16:37:30 functions aren't evaluated 16:37:41 that is to say, the CAR of an expression is never evaluated 16:37:52 -!- roark [n=roark@student166-155.hampshire.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:37:58 I don't think you're aware of what my problem is 16:38:22 well, if you pass -, then you might mean two things 16:38:32 with (defmacro f (x) `(,x (,x 1))), x is evaluated twice, correct? 16:38:37 one is the function that is the result #'- in the current lexical context 16:38:49 the other is the function that the variable named "-" is bound to 16:38:55 p0a: and that would be wrong 16:39:04 why? 16:39:07 as I said, the function part of a function call is never evaluated 16:39:13 it has a special rule 16:39:35 if it is a symbol and not a macro in the lexical context, 16:39:40 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 16:39:41 do you realize that both (efmacro f (x) `(,x (,x 1))) and (f -) work? 16:39:44 "evaluate each one of the arguments and then pass them to the first member as arguments" 16:39:46 we use the result of (FUNCTION it) 16:39:46 How can it be wrong? what do you mean 16:40:20 if it is in the form of a lambda expression, we use the result of (FUNCTION (lambda ...)) 16:41:01 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.132.164] has joined #lisp 16:41:07 neither of these is an evaluation; one always produces a closure via the strictest means (there is no macroexpansion of the "lambda expression" at the outermost level), and the other is a function lookup in the lexical context 16:41:47 I don't understand you 16:42:19 okay, let's move away from "-" as the function in question, and call it blobtastic instead 16:42:58 (let ((blobtastic (lambda (n) (1+ n)))) (flet ((blobtastic (n) (+ 2 n))) (f blobtastic))) should evaluate to what? 16:43:30 the order doesn't matter, the flet could come first; you can't tell in the macroexpansion which comes first anyway 16:44:06 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:44:16 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-144-151.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:41 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-68-170.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:45:47 Good evening. 16:46:05 good morning 16:47:03 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 16:47:40 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless62.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:48:28 r1nu- [n=debian@ppp-94-67-130-117.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:48:36 S11001001: 5 16:49:15 S11001001: ((lambda (n) (+ n 2)) ((lambda (n) (+ n 2)) 1)) 16:49:38 -!- hollo [n=overrent@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:32 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:50:54 CactusSediento [n=CactusSe@161.116.211.97] has joined #lisp 16:52:07 great, so you shouldn't have a problem with multiple evaluation here 16:52:39 I have been experimenting with wgl/opengl and window styles on windows, and I have found that you can get rid of the borders and title bars and you can mirror every sheet following the windows hierarchy, so that will make it *much* easier to make a windows/opengl backend for mcclim 16:53:16 S11001001: so you're saying that I can't avoid this with gensym, but I don't have to because it's not a problem with multiple evaluation 16:53:19 correct? 16:53:23 manic12_: interesting! 16:53:47 yes, each child sheet/window can answer it's own windows messages 16:53:50 p0a: right 16:54:00 you *can* avoid it with gensym, but it would be bad form because you don't have to, and unnecessary code is like unnecessary...something else. 16:54:06 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 16:54:19 manic12_: right, that's how the X11 core-protocol backend works. 16:54:33 S11001001: what about (f (random-func)) 16:54:49 manic12_: And I am guessing there are hidden assumptions in McCLIM right now that make that more or less necessary. 16:54:50 well, define random-func in your repl 16:54:50 time to download the latest mcclim code then 16:55:01 yes 16:55:02 to return a func of one arg obviously 16:55:13 then write ((random-func) 1) and see what happens 16:55:20 actually you can just do the last step 16:55:29 because it will be the same 16:56:24 S11001001: (defun random-func () (if (zerop (random 2)) (lambda (x) (+ x 2)) (lambda (x) (+ x 1)))) 16:57:07 like I said, the definition is irrelevant, just put ((random-func) 1) in the repl 16:57:28 It doesn't work 16:57:29 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 16:57:30 exactly 16:57:34 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:57:37 because... 16:57:49 because WHAT 16:57:54 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:58:01 the same reason you don't have to worry about multiple evaluation 16:58:20 I don't feel like I'm learning common lisp 16:58:23 I feel like I'm believing in common lisp 16:58:27 willb [n=wibenton@wireless62.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:58:32 mmhmm 16:58:33 You know what I mean? You just tell me how it is, but you don't tell me why it is 16:58:44 p0a: OK, what is it you want to know? 16:59:08 I wish I remembered; from one thing to another I don't remember anymore why I was here 16:59:18 there is no final reason things are that way, except maybe MACLISP did it that way. 16:59:21 -!- CactusSediento [n=CactusSe@161.116.211.97] has left #lisp 16:59:37 because we like naming variables "list" and such? 17:00:10 I like having variables named "function", it confuses the pretty printer and it sigs (function widget-tree) like #'widget-tree 17:00:47 S11001001: But having a variable named list has to do with identifier scoping correct? 17:00:58 all of this is related though 17:01:16 I undersatnd identifier scoping though 17:01:18 if we evaluated the CAR of expressions (where the function name or lambda expression goes) 17:01:36 we couldn't have a variable called list and be able to call the function named "list" at the same time 17:02:02 you're saying that they're not evaluated but they have their names looked up 17:02:03 because (let ((list (list 1 2))) (list list)) would signal an error that (1 2) is not a function 17:02:06 right 17:02:20 Can I have something evaluate to a name? 17:02:33 ie (x y) where x is that something that evaluates to a name to be looked up 17:02:36 or, in the case of a lambda expression like ((lambda (list) list) 42) => 42, a closure is created 17:02:55 no, only funcall can do that 17:03:09 But I can have x evaluate to a name 17:03:32 yes, x can evaluate to a function name 17:03:40 but that doesn't happen in the expression (x y) 17:03:42 Therefore if I have (let ((test (gensym))) `(let ((,test ,x)) (funcall ,test 1))) 17:03:47 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3BA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:49 yes 17:03:57 I have tried funcall too but it did not work. I'm going to try it again 17:04:08 but then, in my blobtastic expression above, (f blobtastic) => 3, not 5 like you wanted 17:04:36 because `blobtastic' evaluates to (lambda (n) (1+ n)) 17:05:06 Is that a difference between let and flet 17:05:13 yes 17:05:19 flet binds the *function* 17:05:36 no, I don't understand. I thought let binds the function 17:05:44 since funcall looks up the lambda of let not flet 17:05:45 so (flet ((blobtastic (n) (+ 2 n))) blobtastic) signals that blobtastic is an unbound variable 17:06:00 (flet ((blobtastic (n) (+ 2 n))) #'blobtastic) returns the function 17:06:09 you're saying that I can use what is created in flet only in car of expression 17:06:19 and #' 17:06:21 yes 17:06:31 because it binds the *function*, not the *variable* 17:06:59 I never understood what binds means, I always think of it as something else from C 17:07:12 -!- kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:07:26 regardless, let me attempt to rewrite the macro I was trying to write with the new knowledge 17:08:07 kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:24 in your macro, there is no way to tell, when someone gives you a symbol, whether the function binding is meant, or the variable binding. So you just have to pick one and document your choice. 17:11:14 afk 17:11:30 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 17:11:56 I'm so confused 17:12:05 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-02e57.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:05 I don't understand how the macro can be written with gensym 17:12:19 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6EDC0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:28 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:14:37 manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:52 CL-USER(1): (let ((list (list 1 2))) (list list)) 17:14:52 ((1 2)) 17:14:52 CL-USER(2): 17:15:03 Erg. Silly use of paste. 17:15:18 Just wanted to point out that an earlier example didn't do what was expected; it worked. 17:15:43 my favorite remains (from McCLIM) (defmethod graft ((graft graft)) graft) 17:16:26 i like the use of meta in one unnamed language, it goes something like instance.meta.meta.method() 17:18:51 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:08 hollo [n=expressi@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 17:20:53 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-69-3.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:20:55 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:22:39 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslt091.osnanet.de] has quit ["http://github.com/bakkdoor/rswing/"] 17:26:29 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:38 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:45 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:45 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:33:39 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:38:12 sasdsgh33 [n=Miranda@87.68.42.167.cable.012.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:39:15 Hansel [n=chatzill@cpe-66-65-25-217.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:47:29 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:47:30 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 17:48:38 -!- holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:48:58 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-f3dc51e6caa3af67] has joined #lisp 17:50:44 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has quit [] 17:51:29 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.NET] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:56:03 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-76-29-88-103.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:56:58 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-130-75.netcologne.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:57:18 lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:59:17 ejs [n=eugen@193-4-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:44 manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has joined #lisp 18:00:07 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@213.144.1.98] has quit [Client Quit] 18:00:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:37 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:04:49 decaf [n=mehmet@88.252.98.63] has joined #lisp 18:08:16 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.191.47] has joined #lisp 18:08:45 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Caught sigterm, terminating..."] 18:09:50 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:22 mdl [n=mdl@c-67-161-6-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:00 -!- mdl [n=mdl@c-67-161-6-171.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:13:37 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:14:06 faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has joined #lisp 18:16:05 bdowning [n=bdowning@mnementh.lavos.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:25 -!- cddr [i=andy@user-5443e499.lns1-c9.dsl.pol.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19:38 beach, are there even other methods defined on that function? :-) 18:20:16 tic: Sure, the graft of an ordinary sheet is the graft of its parent (if memory serves). 18:21:07 dto [n=user@68-187-212-45.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:21:13 HET2 [n=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 18:23:22 tic: do a grep "defmethod graft" *.lisp in mumble/McCLIM and you'll see. 18:25:37 beach, coolio. so it's a fancy accessor? 18:26:52 tic: Not sure I would call it that. It's just that a graft is a particular sheet that represents the top of the hierarchy, so the graft of a graft is itself, and a graft of something else is essentially the graft of its parent. 18:27:16 It was nil! :( 18:27:34 I see. 18:27:40 In that case, the sheet is not grafted. 18:27:54 yeah, need to have a sheet-parent-mixin. 18:28:08 I forget the details 18:28:14 sok. 18:28:40 I just wrote some of it, but it was a while ago :) 18:29:35 -!- ejs [n=eugen@193-4-178-94.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:32:25 -!- splittist [n=dmurray@192-41.76-83.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 18:35:24 hm, X started acting up. thought I had my iso_level3_shift pressed in all apps, except for stumpwm. 18:36:14 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:36:45 jao` [n=jao@obfw.oblong.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:17 -!- decaf [n=mehmet@88.252.98.63] has left #lisp 18:41:11 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-33-30-119.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:28 -!- jao [n=jao@cpe-75-84-114-170.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:42:33 -!- p0a [n=user@athedsl-4409990.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["bye"] 18:43:34 cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has joined #lisp 18:44:59 -!- deat [n=deat@fac34-8-88-172-174-215.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 18:45:36 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-130-75.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:47:14 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D3F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:47 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-164.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:53:57 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:29 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 18:56:08 araujo [n=moz@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:59:35 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A684.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:59:45 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:04:13 tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has joined #lisp 19:07:19 bobf [n=bob@host86-147-206-230.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:08:06 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:08:14 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3BA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:08:41 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:09:25 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-b9aa72d5.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:13:06 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@209-217-212-34.northland.net] has quit [] 19:13:26 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 19:16:29 vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has joined #lisp 19:19:51 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 19:20:04 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 19:20:59 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17D3B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:21 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.157.39] has quit ["If God had meant for us to think for ourselves, he would have given us brains. Oh, wait"] 19:22:15 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 19:23:49 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:28:17 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-11317.pppoe.wtnet.de] has joined #lisp 19:28:47 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:33:39 -!- legumbre` is now known as legumbre 19:33:44 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host114-245-dynamic.10-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 19:35:56 gah 19:36:21 no one sane way to load the same .lisp file in different implementations 19:36:39 sepult: no? how about (LOAD ...) 19:37:03 ehu: i did load, what do you think i did to load it ? 19:37:13 (load "/bla/bla.lisp") 19:37:22 works in all implementations. 19:37:34 ehu: not newcl.lisp and closette.lisp 19:37:44 even not mine 19:37:48 ehu: probably not MCL classic 19:37:53 ehu: or Genera 19:38:19 try it with clisp, sbcl, cmucl and gcl 19:38:19 MCL didn't have 'load'? 19:38:24 o hai Fare 19:38:37 everyone goes into the debugger 19:38:39 sepult, what about (load (make-pathname :directory '(:relative "bla") :name "bla" :type "lisp")) 19:38:43 sepult: that's probably not the LOAD command, but the code you're trying to load. 19:38:44 fe[nl]ix, hi 19:39:09 rsynnott, "/" might not be a valid separator in classic MCL 19:39:37 oh, no, I suppose it probably wouldn't be 19:39:37 Fare: as i told it loads, that's not the problem 19:39:38 oh, the joys of pathnames 19:39:44 you'd have to use the weird ':' thing 19:39:59 sepult, what's the problem? 19:39:59 (which is still valid in macosX, sometimes, and occasionally even seen!) 19:40:07 -!- phytovor is now known as doxtor 19:40:10 older weirder carbon apps use it a bit 19:41:06 Fare: i can continue on the debugger for symbolname clashes, when loading newcl, but afterwards loading closette gives an stack overflow 19:41:57 sepult, what's the goal of the exercise? Are you using the latest reportedly working version? 19:42:19 is there a godly decree against modifying and fixing those ancient files? 19:42:47 newlisper: er, my point was that it does work 19:43:23 newlisper: scroll up a little before that to "if we evaluated the CAR" 19:46:27 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:47:32 Fare: the latest working version, which would be ? 19:47:44 sepult, ask google, not me 19:47:45 Fare: 1996 ? 19:48:00 1996 is pretty recent, by CL standards. 19:48:08 ok 19:48:15 mxb [n=mxb@bealbywm.plus.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:55 NiSoOo [n=nnscript@unaffiliated/nisooo] has joined #lisp 19:51:08 1996 is recent? CL was only standardized in 94! 19:51:45 it was hanging about for a decade or so before, though, no? 19:51:54 or 4 19:52:04 i can't use the parcftp.xerox.com/pub directory for some reason 19:52:11 no access 19:52:17 or the link is broken 19:53:00 well, CL, though 19:53:05 just not ANSI CL 19:54:30 why does every implementation come with it's own clos then ? 19:54:39 if it's standardized 19:55:11 once they call it pcl, once clos 19:55:20 AMOP didn't make it into the standard. 19:55:23 once it is mop then again amop 19:55:32 so amop os for ansi ? 19:55:32 but everyone implements it anyways, but calls it different names (argh!) 19:57:09 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 19:57:20 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:59:03 -!- HET2 [n=diman@xover.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:59:53 no, everyone implements slightly incompatible versions of it 20:01:15 -!- sasdsgh33 is now known as ping-ong 20:01:18 i'm getting mad at it, not being able to even load it 20:01:43 i hope it's not some other matter with my system ... 20:02:40 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@x250058.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:03:17 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Client Quit] 20:04:31 c|mell [n=cmell@x250018.dynamic.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 20:05:10 S11001001: really? it seems to me everyone implements the same thing, but some people's implementations are buggier than others. 20:05:13 HET2 [n=diman@mars.htu.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 20:05:29 (and of course everyone uses different package names because it's more fun that way) 20:05:41 no, everyone doesn't implement the same thing 20:05:49 ccl's mop is different from amop by design 20:07:04 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-88-217-58-147.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 20:07:41 many implementations choose not to support the method body protocol (or whatever it's called: make-method-lambda, anyway) 20:10:38 lispm [n=joswig@e177157247.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:11:46 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:56 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:12:07 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 20:12:38 what, no debate? Shame 20:12:40 ;; Loading file /home/buggarage/emacs/newcl.lisp ... 20:12:54 *** - STRING: argument 'NEWCL should be a string, a symbol or a character 20:13:16 i didn't even alter anything to the file 20:13:35 that's what clisp gives me 20:13:47 you are loading code that was written for an older dialect of lisp (CLtL1) 20:14:20 Krystof: I was going to read pascal's paper on make-method-lambda before debating. :) 20:14:42 Krystof: i even changed all those symbols to for example :use :newcl instead of :use 'NEWCL 20:14:55 foom: it's a good one. 20:15:02 sepult: there are probably simple, minor modifications that will make newcl.lisp load, but guessing the form of those modifications is not likely 20:15:19 Krystof: then it loaded, but then there were other obscure errors 20:15:38 sepult: yes? All you're telling me is that you didn't make the right changes. Duh 20:15:51 Krystof: like (import '(defun makunbound)) wouldn't work 20:16:31 Krystof: i changed them to (:import-from :newcl 'defun 'makunbound 20:16:37 Krystof: but again errors 20:16:40 i don't know 20:17:10 sepult: 'defun is what? 20:17:21 -!- vasa [n=vasa@80.94.234.105] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 20:17:42 lispm: a symbol of package newcl, which gives the definition of defun 20:18:03 no, it is not a symbol - try again 20:18:42 lispm: i did without the quote, again errors, telling me it has to be a string,symbol or keyword 20:18:49 heh 20:18:58 'defun is a list 20:19:07 (quote defun) 20:20:10 sellout: meh, I was underwhelmed. The proposal in the paper for improvement struck me as handwavy 20:20:38 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-237-155.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:56 the cll post by Bruno Haible is (I thought) clearer 20:21:23 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0099.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:21:30 -!- jao` is now known as jao 20:21:47 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:22:20 Krystof: I think the important thing for me was the statement of the problem. It wasn't something that was ever apparent to me before. 20:22:39 ah, fair enough 20:22:47 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-239-4.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:53 if you've not had to fix make-method-lambda bugs the problem might not be obvious :) 20:26:00 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:05 sepult: all CL implementations have CLOS, no need to load closette 20:26:19 sepult: closette was written for pre-ANSI CL 20:26:28 nice, kmp is coming to ELS'09 20:26:40 sepult: and would need to be adjusted slightly for ANSI CL 20:27:35 I think I'm missing something. At the beginning he says "The lack of a possible :method-class option in defmethod forms is arguably an omission." 20:27:41 why wouldn't adding that solve the entire problem? 20:28:48 [1]edon [n=edon@82.114.94.27] has joined #lisp 20:29:19 jfactor [n=jfactor@student166-15.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 20:29:56 -!- [1]edon [n=edon@82.114.94.27] has quit [Client Quit] 20:30:04 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:30:22 foom: because make-method-lambda is still a compile-time protocol 20:30:23 *sellout* wonders if he'll make it to any of the Euro lisp stuff this year. Probably not ... even though ECLM was a blast last year. 20:30:25 there's no intercession 20:30:53 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 20:31:15 foom: you still lose, for example, if your nice method on make-method-lambda is in the same file as any of the defmethod forms which expect to _use_ that new method 20:31:42 I guess the problem is that you lose *quietly*? 20:31:53 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:33:37 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17D3B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:34:01 josemanuel [n=josemanu@176.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:34:52 foom: yeah. Not even a STYLE-WARNING 20:34:58 mega1 [n=mega@3e70d8b1.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 20:36:01 so, okay, it's not ideal. But I don't see how any of this is a good excuse to not implement it. (other than, I suppose "nobody uses it anyways so why bother") 20:36:45 *Fare* notes that in dylan's d-expr, there is also the equivalent of the cfasl 20:37:07 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-121.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:37:30 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-237-155.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:38:49 So far I still see nothing to indicate that anyone implements a different thing, just that some have failed to fully implement it. 20:39:02 such failure most likely due to lack of demand 20:39:48 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 20:41:21 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 20:44:53 what is a good way to compare keywords for equality? 20:44:57 eq 20:45:11 (or eql) 20:45:19 *dlowe* prefers eql. 20:45:28 if they're keyword, why use eql? 20:45:49 thank you 20:46:04 when I see EQ, my immediate thought is that they're doing something related to storage management. Maybe it's just me 20:46:44 or else trying to be supa-fast! 20:47:56 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:48:30 chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:08 mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has joined #lisp 20:54:48 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-38-156.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:56:14 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-38-156.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:21 -!- rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-fa7f419b1deeae56] has quit [] 20:56:28 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:56:59 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:15 rread [n=rread@nat/sun/x-74553679d7141d15] has joined #lisp 20:59:58 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:19 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit ["zzz"] 21:05:29 -!- chessguy_work [n=chessguy@67-130-43-2.dia.static.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:06:59 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:08:59 -!- faux [n=user@1-1-4-21a.gkp.gbg.bostream.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:11:19 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177157247.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 21:11:40 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCD094.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:11 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:00 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-105-148.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:13:02 -!- araujo [n=moz@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:13:16 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:13:17 -!- mejja [n=user@c-f6b6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:13:19 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 21:14:38 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70d8b1.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:15:55 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:44 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:17:57 *slyrus_* remembers why he hates defclass* 21:18:30 slyrus_: why do you hate it ? 21:19:06 I can't (as easily) go searching for the initargs for (overly) complex classes 21:19:14 -!- tombom [n=tombomp@wikipedia/Tombomp] has quit ["Peace and Protection 4.22.2"] 21:20:52 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:21:27 -!- NiSoOo [n=nnscript@unaffiliated/nisooo] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:22:14 the right question would be "which decflass*"? 21:22:45 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:22:50 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:06 cmm: yes, another reason :) 21:25:24 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:33 slyrus, what about a programmatic interface to extract the initargs? 21:25:39 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:26:27 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:26:28 Fare: sure, that would be fine. This was just more of a general gripe than a complaint looking for a constructive solution. 21:26:40 the real answer is rewrite this stuff to use epigraph instead of cl-graph 21:27:39 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-88-217-58-147.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:28:49 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:15 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:46 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@c-76-29-188-22.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:33:04 bah, I can't recall, is there a predefined function for integer division? 21:33:14 or do I need to say (truncate (/ a b))? 21:33:30 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:38 clhs / 21:33:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_sl.htm 21:34:54 so you can't do a (defvar exports bla in a defpackage form ? 21:35:42 (truncate a b) 21:35:48 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:54 stassats`: oh 21:35:56 nifty 21:36:18 -!- mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has left #lisp 21:36:46 and ok, i got rid of that defvar, and they all load now in clisp 21:37:06 though i get a stack overflow, whit a reset 21:37:21 but the packages are visible 21:37:33 (list-all-packages) tells me they are there 21:37:52 hrmm, is there a impl. dependent stack size ? 21:38:15 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:39:53 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CBD1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:42:44 -!- dan_b [n=dan@82-68-20-86.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:45:00 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:45:18 -!- fcky [n=wrai@121.28.12.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:48:20 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:51:36 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.109] has joined #lisp 21:51:47 smanek [n=smanek@mail.cra.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:54 huh, when did SBCL grow arbitrary sequence support in FIRST and LAST? 21:52:29 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:52:32 never? 21:52:48 mine distinctly supports that 21:52:52 http://paste.debian.net/32659/ 21:53:00 i edited them this way now 21:53:13 mathrick: you think it does 21:53:42 KABINETT-TEST> (first "asd") 21:53:43 #\a 21:54:04 (symbol-package 'first) ? 21:54:37 oooh, FSET 21:54:45 sorry about the fuss :) 21:54:49 mathrick: I get «The value "asd" is not of type LIST.» 21:54:49 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 21:55:19 fe[nl]ix: yeah, stassats` set me straight 21:56:10 -!- newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.244] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:01:33 rswarbrick [n=user@user-514d368f.l1.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:01:34 -!- nis [n=nicolas@91-165-132-107.rev.libertysurf.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:04:24 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:06:38 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:52 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@176.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:08:58 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.191.47] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:09:12 rswarbrick pasted "macrolet confusion" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78132 22:09:13 Hi there, I'm a bit confused about what I'm doing wrong using macrolet. I've just plonked the code onto the pastebin (just ~10 lines). When compiling it, SBCL complains that row? isn't used and (indeed) setting row? makes no difference to what the function does... can anyone suggest what I'm doing/understanding wrong? 22:09:36 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.218.189] has joined #lisp 22:09:49 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-189-59.northland.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:11 -!- durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has quit [] 22:12:51 why do you think setf on macros would work? 22:13:25 I assumed the macro was expanded in advance: doesn't the doc for macrolet say that? 22:13:34 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 22:13:50 "Within the body of macrolet, global setf expander definitions of 22:13:50 the NAMES defined by the macrolet do not apply; rather, setf 22:13:50 expands the macro form and recursively process the resulting form." 22:13:51 rswarbrick, you're confused indeed 22:13:57 Oh :( 22:14:08 and why do you think that macros would work at runtime? 22:14:10 rswarbrick, the row? of your function is available at runtime 22:14:12 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:26 the row? of your macro (give it another name) is available at compile-time 22:14:34 Oh I see. Yeah that's never going to work. 22:14:36 Damn. 22:14:52 Any suggestions for a better way to write this? (vague is fine!) 22:14:58 when you expand the macro, the value of the thing is the symbol ROW? 22:15:01 s/better/working 22:15:15 Fare: Yeah, now I understand. Thanks for explaining it. 22:15:21 what you MIGHT want to do is have two loops, one expanded with NIL the other with T 22:16:14 So basically you'd define a set-row version and a set-col version (possibly using macroexpansion) and decide which one to call at runtime? 22:16:24 or you might want to pass around an updater closure 22:16:48 depends how much the code is perf-critical 22:16:54 Hmm I'm slightly concerned about the overhead doing that - if mx has a large width 22:16:55 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-130-75.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 22:16:55 yeah 22:17:21 defmacro define-row/column-adder ... 22:17:29 Ok, I guess I'd better go for the "two versions" option. 22:17:32 Yeah, exactly 22:17:36 :) 22:18:00 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-130-75.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:18:05 I'll be back with a working version in a bit hopefully! Thanks for all the help. 22:19:22 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless62.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:22:47 gonzojive [n=red@171.66.87.197] has joined #lisp 22:23:05 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:25:31 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:31 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 22:25:50 rswarbrick annotated #78132 "defining macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78132#1 22:26:32 Hokay, so I've duly written the define-row/column-adder macro and, testing it with macroexpand, it looks like it does the right thing. 22:26:45 -!- gonzojive [n=red@171.66.87.197] has quit [Client Quit] 22:27:10 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.218.189] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:27:19 Next question: what sort of eval-when construct do I want to use to ensure the two ADD-* functions are defined for the rest of the code in the file? Compile time and load time? 22:27:31 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 22:30:01 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 22:31:03 rswarbrick: what exactly do you need that macro for? It does nothing but obscure your intent significantly IMO, and there is absolutely no need for a macro in this case. 22:31:43 Well, it seemed silly to write out both forms of the function. 22:31:43 Hmm 22:31:54 I guess the original thing was that you can't do; 22:32:06 (setf (if foo bar quux) something) 22:32:38 rswarbrick: how long did it take you to write and debug that macro vs how long it would have taken you to write the two functions? 22:32:42 (where foo is going to be ROW?) so I thought that I basically had to write out the function twice. 22:32:45 Well, yeah. 22:32:54 rswarbrick: you can do that. :) 22:32:56 But now I understand macrolet properly etc.... 22:34:01 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:12 drewc: I mean, I agree with your criticism :-) Is there another, prettier way to end up with the same result? I might be missing something obvious? 22:35:22 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 22:35:59 rswarbrick: indeed, i can see a few better ways. Way #1 : simply write the function out twice. I think that this is a perfectly viable solution in this case. 22:36:23 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 22:36:24 rswarbrick: way #2: refactor the common code into it's own function that itself takes functions. 22:37:45 Sorry, which two functions? 22:38:03 add-row and add-column 22:38:19 those are the only two possible outcomes of the macro.. right? 22:38:32 Oh ok, well the second approach is kind of what the macroexpansion obfuscated... 22:38:35 -!- cavesnow [n=cavesnow@utente8Timpano.sns.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:40 rswarbrick annotated #78132 "the sensible way to do it?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78132#2 22:39:52 I guess what I've just pasted is #1. 22:40:08 sbahra [n=sbahra@128.164.102.96] has joined #lisp 22:41:24 rswarbrick: i'd call that %add-row-or-column, and use it to define ADD-ROW and ADD-COLUMN, but yeah, that's exactly it. 22:41:48 Cool. Less fun, but a lot more sensible. Thanks for the help. 22:42:17 rswarbrick: glad i could be of assistance :) 22:42:59 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6EDC0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["humhum"] 22:43:40 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:47:38 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:49:29 <_death> rswarbrick: `incf' can be used rather than `setf', and you can use `below' or `dotimes' rather than `to (1- ...)' 22:49:31 kenan [n=kenan@88.238.45.235] has joined #lisp 22:49:49 _death: Oh, both good points. Thanks. 22:49:50 -!- kenan is now known as Guest11901 22:49:59 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@port-11317.pppoe.wtnet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:51:40 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:51:42 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:53:59 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:58:12 Joreji [n=nah@46-021.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:58:30 Does clos provide some form of destructor? 22:59:25 Joreji: There are Finalizers, if thats what you are searching for. 22:59:26 Joreji: not standard, but working in most implementations. 22:59:40 inforichland [n=inforich@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:17 So, when is a finalizer being called? 23:00:29 Joreji: Is this what you want? 23:00:44 when object is being to be reclaimed? 23:00:47 I have no idea, since I don't know when it's being called. 23:01:06 I want to free a resource, as soon as the class is being collected by the GC 23:01:06 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:26 Fatal control stack overflow. You have entered 23:01:33 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:01:36 Joreji: The finalizer is called when the garbage collector finds that an object is to be deleted. 23:01:37 the red control stack guard zone while debugging. Returning to Top-Level. 23:01:48 that's cmucl 23:01:51 hmmmm 23:02:00 can't load closette 23:02:12 i get stack overflows 23:02:13 schoppenhauer: Then I guess that's what I'm looking for. Thanks, I'll look it up on the nets. 23:02:20 <_death> Joreji: are you sure that you want that? destructors and finalizers are very different beasts 23:02:36 _death: How so? 23:03:06 hi, i'm new in cl, i use sbcl + slime on emacs, could you advice good libs for portable gui creation and opengl support, they could even be very basic, portablity is more important to me. 23:03:09 Joreji: maybe you should look for the package trivial-garbage (see cliki.net or common-lisp.net for example) 23:03:20 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.250.68] has quit ["leaving"] 23:03:26 schoppenhauer: Will do, thanks. 23:03:39 Joreji: destructors are for freeing memory (and other resources), and you have to call them explicitly. finalizers are for notifying that memory is being freed., 23:04:10 <_death> Joreji: the usual solution in Lisp is to write a function taking a function and calling it in the context where the resource was acquired, releasing the resource afterwards.. it would use `unwind-protect' to make sure the release step is performed. then one can write a `with-xxx' style macro that expands to a call to that function with the body forms in a lambda 23:04:14 minion: cl-opengl? 23:04:15 cl-opengl: cl-opengl is a set of CFFI bindings to the OpenGL, GLU and GLUT APIs. http://www.cliki.net/cl-opengl 23:04:30 Joreji: i.e. if you have some open tcp-connection then your finalizer should close it if it isnt closed yet, etc. (thats one use of it, there are others) 23:04:31 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 23:05:17 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:05:19 <_death> Joreji: when writing a finalizer, you should keep in mind that it might never get called, for all you know 23:05:45 hmm, thanks, any advice for a portable gui? 23:05:47 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-166-97.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:54 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-166-97.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:06:04 _death: so basically something like: with-file-open? I don't want the resource to be freed that soon though. 23:06:15 mogunus pasted "scope" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/78135 23:06:16 _death, Joreji: Maybe it would be a good idea to tell why you need this? 23:06:35 Joreji: why? 23:06:41 Hi. I'm having trouble figuring out how to make "blah" pick up the value for kitten in apply-face. 23:07:09 is it a good idea to load files or packages with (without-package-lock (load "bla")) ? 23:07:20 Guest11901: lispbuilder-sdl, cl-opengl, and for guis LTK 23:07:34 s0ber [i=pie@118-160-165-201.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:36 Ah! I need to declare is special in blah as well. 23:07:41 Guest11901: but its a bit hard to learn at the beginning. 23:07:43 schoppenhauer: I'm using glGenTexture to generate a texture and I'm associating it with a class. I want a automagicall call to glDeleteTextures to delete the texture as soon as I delete the object containing the texture. 23:08:55 Joreji: Ok. Then use a finalizer. But as _death said: There is no guarantee that it will ever be called. That is, if the GC decides to keep your object for some reason, then it will keep the object and never call it. 23:08:58 <_death> Joreji: the garbage collector takes care of memory, and memory only.. it's not supposed to take care of anything else.. finalizers are usually used when interfacing with foreign code that allocates and deallocates memory or other resources where it's not critical to have them released in a specific point in time 23:09:49 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has left #lisp 23:09:58 _death: I think thats what he does. He seems to use some ffi - at least "glGenTexture" sounds like so. 23:10:23 Hmm, that won't do. Guess I'll have to figure out when to call some 'destroy' method manually. Thanks alot though. 23:10:58 glGenTexture as in: cl-opengl's gl:gen-texture 23:11:02 Joreji: why dont you leave it to the garbage collector? 23:11:04 i find libs on cliki but i couldn't learn much about which is better and widely used, lispbuilder seems very nice but is it platform independent? 23:11:08 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-139-230.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 23:11:10 -!- rswarbrick [n=user@user-514d368f.l1.c2.dsl.pol.co.uk] has left #lisp 23:11:20 -!- kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:12:05 Guest11901: you can run it on linux comparably trivial, on windows it is a bit more work. it should also run on mac. and on solaris (even though not with all common lisp implementations) 23:12:06 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:12:25 schoppenhauer: I'm not sure whether the GC is able to release resources on the GPU. Furthermore not releasing resources in at least a somewhat predictable way is kinda bad with textures. 23:14:01 <_death> Joreji: the GC doesn't know anything about the GPU, but it can call your finalizer that does.. the second sentence does seem to seal the fate of the finalizers idea, however 23:14:59 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:16:17 <_death> another indicator against the use of finalizers (and, of C++ style destructors) is when the resource release might fail.. then you need a way to signal and respond to the error 23:16:48 appletizer [i=user@82-32-124-44.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:17:37 True. Sounds like I'll have to build some resource manager - just like in good old C times :) 23:18:03 so a simple program written in sbcl + ltk + lispbuilder can be ported easily to win linux and mac, right? 23:18:32 Guest11901: Last time I tried, LTK was not working on Windows. 23:19:24 hmm, so is there a portable gui? 23:19:41 <_death> ltk is supposed to work on windows 23:20:44 I only remember LTK having some sort of documented endless loop bug upon starting up a few months ago when I tried it. 23:20:55 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 23:21:26 Not sure whether that was fixed - if it was, then LTK is probably the GUI to go with. 23:22:10 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.149.99] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:22:55 there are screenshots on osx and linux on ltk site, but not for win 23:23:06 Joreji, what about CommonQt? Tried it? 23:23:19 -!- spec[afk] [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["g'night!"] 23:23:41 Initially developed for the X-Window system, it has been ported to a wide selection of operating systems, including Windows and MacOs. 23:23:43 Um no. I gave up on Windows and switched to Linux :/ 23:23:54 on docs he says it works on win 23:24:04 Guest11901: http://www.cliki.net/Ltk (last paragraph) 23:24:17 durka42 [n=durka@d81.wireless.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 23:24:21 "One unfortunate problem is that LTK mysteriously fails to run on some Windows computers, depending on what programs happen to be running in the background. People are encouraged to either donate a Windows box for testing, or helpfully volunteer to track the issue down. " 23:25:04 I was using CLISP though. Since you are using SBCL it might just work. 23:26:07 i need to use win because i'm an architecture student and i have to use some software that run on win, so i need portable libs :\ 23:26:51 Professor is teaching CLISP to this class right now. 23:26:57 The looks on students' faces is hilarious. 23:27:05 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-72.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:27:22 sbahra: Because they're amazed at the beauty of the language or what? 23:27:32 No idea what is going on. 23:27:40 The professor doesn't really have an idea either. 23:28:02 Nice, that sounds like a lecture I would've actually visited :) 23:28:04 He's showing a "member" function using COND, claims it is possible to implement in C (using line count as an example of elegance). 23:28:21 But he really has no idea what is going on. 23:29:18 Well, you'll find that sort of professor everywhere - maybe he's just getting old :) 23:30:11 As long as he doesn't start googling documentation on a particular function just because he's forgotten in the middle of lectures, I guess its fine :) 23:31:13 He doesn't know any of the theory to begin with. 23:31:26 Let alone the practical side of things. :-P 23:32:09 You ought to tell him :) 23:33:12 ltk is okay, i don't think some minor errors would be a problem, just that i don't want to handicapped by the portablity problems and end up learning some other lib, ltk is great advice, thanks :) two more questions, which one is better? cl-opengl or lispbuilder? and do you know if exe creation support of sbcl is working good? 23:33:12 I really think Haskell is less daunting to begin with for introductory FP. 23:33:24 rstandy [n=rastandy@net-93-144-221-164.t2.dsl.vodafone.it] has joined #lisp 23:33:28 But I am also a FP newbie, so that might not count for much. :-P 23:33:58 Joreji, no thanks. 23:34:45 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:47 Back when they thaught us haskell (in 2 weeks) I thought it to be rather complicated. 23:34:54 His explanation of "LET", "it allows for filtering criteria". 23:35:52 I guess he fails :) 23:36:22 Though I can hardly imagine anyone explaining let that way. 23:36:38 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:40 dec142 [n=Declan@86-45-249-216-dynamic.b-ras3.mvw.galway.eircom.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:57 Guest11901: cl-opengl really is only a wrapper around glut-, glu- and gl- functions. 23:37:56 Guest11901: And lispbuilder-sdl seems to be the wrapper around, well - the sdl. 23:38:12 Guest11901: It should be a matter of personal preference which one to choose. 23:40:14 Guest11901: I do remember cl-opengl not working on my windows box though. You might want to simply try them out first. 23:40:23 can i ask which one is a better wrapper :) 23:41:10 No idea. I love cl-opengl, but that's probably because I've always only worked with OpenGL and never with SDL. 23:41:51 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3BA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:32 tweek__ [n=tweek@host-5-159-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:38 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BC91.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:48:09 nis [n=nicolas@91-165-132-107.rev.libertysurf.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:38 benny [n=benny@i577A248D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:52:10 hmm, lispbuilder aslo seems well documented, anyway i give a try to both as you said, thanks so much for the advises. 23:55:43 -!- bobf [n=bob@unaffiliated/bob-f/x-6028553] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:55:45 bobf_ [n=bob@host86-147-206-230.range86-147.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 23:55:59 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:56:56 alec [n=alec@pool-96-233-21-86.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:02 davazp [n=user@56.Red-79-153-148.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp