00:01:23 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:43 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.168] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:01:48 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:03:10 nimalan [n=nimalan@128.189.250.57] has joined #lisp 00:03:23 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:19 kidd1 [n=kidd@163.Red-88-9-114.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:07:25 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 00:07:32 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:28 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:44 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:16:49 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@163.Red-88-9-114.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 00:17:20 jao [n=jao@252.Red-79-155-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:44 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:18:24 hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:57 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 00:21:34 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 00:25:41 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.166.56] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:25:49 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.142.49] has joined #lisp 00:29:07 losp [n=lo@p4FD3CF2C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:19 how can I save the buffer in emacs+slime to a source file? I just tried to save the buffer, but all those CL-USER> and all evaluations are saved, too. I don't want that. Instead I want a lisp source file that can be loaded/evaluated again after a restart. 00:30:45 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:30:47 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:31:03 losp: Save it anyway, and then strip out the junk you don't want by hand. Next time, use a separate buffer for your definitions to start with. 00:31:11 <_death> usually you start by editing a file, or using the scratch buffer 00:31:39 <_death> it shouldn't be too hard to write a little program to filter out the noise 00:31:41 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 00:31:49 okay, I see.. well, I created a new buffer, but how do I evaluate the lisp forms then? just hitting enter won't do anything. 00:32:15 I typically C-c C-c forms that I want to have evaluated. 00:32:21 At least, I think that's what I do. 00:32:41 It's kindof ingrained in muscle memory by this point so I don't really have to think about it. 00:32:41 okay, I try that. I'll come back if it doesn't work for me :) thanks so far. 00:32:44 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:34:46 -!- mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:35:00 ditto here. I only use the REPL for testing the stuff i compile and load with C-c C-c 00:35:11 mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:38 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:47 I tried your suggestion, using C-c C-C. It just says that it compiled with 0 errors and 0 warnings. but I don't see the result of the evaluation. 00:36:00 <_death> I use `C-M-x' 00:36:06 <_death> it'll show the result in the modeline 00:36:44 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 00:36:56 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:57 _death: uh, that did it. 00:37:32 disumu [n=disumu@p54BCF68A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:43 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-92.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 00:40:09 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:40:43 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:42:27 -!- spec[away] [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["G'night!"] 00:43:21 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-92.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:44:11 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:47:42 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087CA64.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:48:27 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:53:43 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp-94-68-94-176.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:00 iaindalton [n=iain@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:53 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 00:56:07 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 00:57:14 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 00:58:11 masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 00:58:15 Why does (step (if (oddp 5) yes no)) in SLIME not work? I get an error. 00:58:18 iaindalton pasted "step error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76222 00:59:05 ', not  00:59:37 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@128.189.250.57] has quit [] 00:59:43 oops, I copied and pasted from A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computing 01:00:48 strange, SLIME chokes on that, but at the command prompt, the same input just reports that YES has no value 01:00:56 thx 01:00:58 -!- iaindalton [n=iain@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has left #lisp 01:04:25 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:33 is there a reason why this wouldn't work?... 01:04:34 (defun pushend (obj list) 01:04:34 (setf list (nconc list (cons obj nil)))) 01:04:44 Define `work'. 01:04:57 Any correct CL implementation will happily evaluate that definition. 01:04:58 it doesn't seem to actually be altering list 01:05:01 Beket [n=stathis@ppp7-197.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 01:05:05 it won't do anything to a in this code: (let ((a (list))) (pushend 4 a)) 01:05:15 It most certainly does alter the local variable named LIST in your function PUSHEND. 01:05:18 segv: yeah, that's what's happening. 01:05:21 because the binding list is not the binding a 01:05:31 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [] 01:05:35 ach 01:05:36 Perhaps you wanted to do something interesting with that local variable? 01:05:50 segv: is there a way to have it alter a?... 01:05:50 so either use a macro which expands into the setf or (setf a (pushend 4 a)) 01:06:03 There is no way for the function to modify the local variables of its callers. 01:06:46 how does pushnew do it? :-\ 01:06:55 <_death> it's a macro 01:06:55 push/pushnew 01:06:57 ah 01:06:58 is pushnew a function or a macro? 01:06:59 PUSHNEW and PUSH are not functions. 01:07:12 that makes sense. Thank you, I'll change it now :) 01:07:14 <_death> you can easily define a macro to do that using `define-modify-macro' 01:07:30 appendf is a pretty common utility macro. 01:07:47 -!- losp [n=lo@p4FD3CF2C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 01:07:49 (appendf the-list the-new-ending-list) 01:07:52 <_death> that's not really `appendf' :) 01:07:58 no, it's not. 01:08:03 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.137.248] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:08:40 but i get a kick out of providing useless advice. 01:10:17 You know what'd be interesting? Dynamically-scoped flet. 01:10:27 that's in contextl 01:10:35 neat :-o 01:10:37 dflet i think it's called. 01:10:57 I'd rather "just" (declare (special #'whatever)), but okay. 01:11:08 ok, that'd be awesome. 01:11:09 what was the difference between flet and labels? flet doesn't allow recursion? 01:11:25 What I'm really thinking, though, is (flet ((cl:read ...)) (compile-file ...)) 01:11:42 sykopomp: Yeah, basically. 01:11:46 evil. 01:12:00 nyef: that would be fantastic. Does the hyperspec specifically unallow stuff like that? 01:12:20 *sykopomp* knows it's probably ugly, but likes erring on the side of allowing programmers to shoot themselves in the foot. 01:12:24 <_death> nyef: "lifting".. there was a nice Siskind paper 01:12:26 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:12:30 sykopomp: Yes, it does specifically unallow it. It'd have to be an extension. 01:13:00 oxygen [i=oxygen@unaffiliated/oxygen] has joined #lisp 01:13:32 Anyway, so long as you're unithreaded, some setfs, without-package-locks, and an unwind-protect should do the trick. 01:13:34 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 01:13:34 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-214-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:13:44 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 01:16:12 <_death> what about inline/primitive functions.. 01:17:17 Wouldn't work, of course, but I don't expect that to be a problem for my use-case. 01:17:18 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.168] has joined #lisp 01:17:37 <_death> well for your particular use-case, such a mechanism is an overkill :) 01:17:54 Sure. 01:17:55 <_death> (compile-file ... :reader #'read) or a special variable.. 01:18:25 No, no... I wanted to do it without modifying the compiler, just the definition of #'read used. 01:18:45 <_death> special variable *read* 01:19:04 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.168] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:19:27 *nyef* points out that such a special variable isn't in the spec. 01:19:56 <_death> right, but it's much easier than implementing your approach ;) 01:20:49 isn't this the kind of stuff smalltalk loves to do? 01:21:00 and C++ for that matter 01:21:31 <_death> I would expect `compile-file' to use lower-level reader functions as well, anyway 01:22:14 <_death> since it can (as part of the implementation) 01:22:18 _death: I wouldn't. There's little point in using a lower-level interface. 01:22:31 -!- masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:22:58 Anyway, it was a random insane idea, and I probably won't bother with it. 01:26:19 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:27:46 dihymo [n=dihymo@75-174-222-25.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:20 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-75-36-140-184.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:20 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-75-36-140-184.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:30:51 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-75-36-140-184.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:34 postamar [n=postamar@bas11-ottawa23-1096658321.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:31:34 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-75-36-140-184.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:32:47 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:34:09 prxq_ [n=mommer@Xd492.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:34:31 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-47-203.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 01:35:17 nimalan [n=nimalan@128.189.250.57] has joined #lisp 01:36:21 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-75-36-140-184.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:25 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 01:44:25 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-75-36-140-184.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:46:26 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-75-36-140-184.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:58 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-75-36-140-184.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:48:38 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:49:44 -!- postamar [n=postamar@bas11-ottawa23-1096658321.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 01:49:58 -!- prxq [n=mommer@X8f92.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:50:33 fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:53 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:26 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:53:05 !seen blitz_ 01:53:35 HG` [n=wells@222-153-100-184.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:01:31 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-e13914ec88d64b91] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:01:31 KalifG [n=user@32.176.29.171] has joined #lisp 02:03:25 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:05:01 sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B566.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:05:50 -!- azanar [n=azanar@edm1a.mavericklabel.com] has quit [] 02:08:02 clop [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:21 is there a way to create an "empty string" with some size, so i can fill in the characters later? 02:09:08 (setf empty " ") ? 02:09:21 a string is just a one dimensional vector. 02:09:37 i might not know the length ahead of time to just use spaces 02:09:49 aah 02:09:56 if size unknown.... 02:11:08 so you could make one of arbitrary length with make-array. 02:11:34 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:11:46 (vector-push-ectend ...) 02:11:49 extend 02:16:01 bah. that's the end of my remaining brane cells. g'nite folks. 02:16:13 tis more than mine, nite 02:16:20 02:17:47 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 02:22:33 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B542.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:27:20 -!- g0ju [n=moo@dslb-088-074-238-186.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:29:22 http://f.imagehost.org/download/0624/delta 02:30:55 Quadrescence: hm? 02:34:47 sykopomp: I don't know, just a little .avi. 02:35:41 Quadrescence: if you don't know what it is, why are you posting it here? 02:36:15 i like the range function. what environement is that? 02:36:33 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:36:35 Fade: It's "my" language I'm working on. 02:36:53 is it written in CL? 02:36:58 No, C. 02:37:03 ah 02:37:36 seems to me that lisp was invented to write lisp. :) 02:38:06 have you written any signifigant programs in it? 02:38:10 Hehe, I just wanted to make something new, small, portable, and other things, I guess. 02:38:22 Nothing significant. I'm still writing it and messing with it. 02:38:32 *nod* 02:38:49 I wonder if the "let's write a little language" is a common thing among lispers. 02:39:03 sykopomp: It probably is. I don't know if writing it in C is common. :< 02:39:20 Quadrescence: there's CL implementations written in a variety of different languages. 02:39:24 including C++ and Java 02:39:30 sykopomp: I'm aware. 02:40:06 This isn't compatible with CL, as you may have noticed with things like "def" 02:40:29 that said, lisp is a great toolkit for implementing lisp :P 02:41:30 Quadrescence: is it a lisp-2? 02:41:41 sykopomp: lisp-1 02:41:50 also, is there anything in particular you're aiming to do with this, other than "let's write a lisp!"? 02:42:53 sykopomp: A compiled and interpreted language which is small in size, but still has expressiveness and supports several paradigms "out of the box", and not as focused on the functional paradigm. 02:43:17 do you call it Greenspun ? 02:44:38 fph: :> 02:44:43 What? 02:45:10 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greenspun's_Tenth_Rule 02:45:34 :3 02:46:14 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-153-151.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:46:16 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@128.189.250.57] has quit [] 02:46:20 I wonder what that means, I interpreted as a butt once 02:46:47 fph: I'm aware, but I don't see how it relates. Nonetheless, I had enough trouble (and no success) trying to get a CL on my iphone, but no success. So I decided I'd write my own in ANSI/ISO C89 02:46:48 or maybe it's a moustache 02:46:57 fph: It's a "cute cat" 02:47:14 really, I heard that the java-CL was running 02:47:20 abcl 02:48:32 azanar [n=azanar@c-67-183-123-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:42 *sykopomp* fixes the page. 02:50:18 C is small, and I understand a lot of it. If I don't understand something, I can read the standard. Also, C can probably be compiled on many, many more platforms than CL can. 02:50:32 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B566.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:51:16 -!- azanar [n=azanar@c-67-183-123-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:51:21 care to bet? I don't see how something supporting C wouldn't support a CL 02:51:29 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@75-174-222-25.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:51:40 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 02:51:41 Because of things like CLISP or ECL? 02:51:46 si 02:51:55 or some of the older ones 02:52:00 Quadrescence: CL probably has better cross-platform support for relevant platforms in most cases I would care about. 02:52:37 I don't know, I had trouble compiling those on, again, the iphone. Maybe I'm bad at compiling? Maybe I was "doin it rong"? I don't know. 02:52:59 well, you didn't get that ABCL running? I thought someone had.... 02:53:10 I find ECL very interesting partially because it has a rather wide set of features as long as certain standards/libraries are available. And they are available for much more platforms than any implementation that has native code generation by itself :-) 02:53:13 I didn't try ABCL. I wasn't interested in using java. 02:53:28 it's just the underpinnings 02:54:51 Quadrescence: It shouldn't be very hard to get ECL compiled for iPhone. And if you can be satisfied with Scheme, Chicken boasts that it's portable anywhere that has ANSI C compiler/environemnt 02:55:33 Um, Chicken rests on more assumptions than that. 02:56:32 Riastradh: Yes, but I recall that the code generated was supposed to be pure ANSI C, and iPhone afaik doesn't differ enough from normal OS X to make it unworkable, does it? 02:57:23 It will probably run on the iPhone, yes. But `pure ANSI C' is an exaggeration; it invokes plenty of nasal demons. Those nasal demons are inert on most `reasonable' platforms, of course. 02:57:29 p_l: I'm sure I can be satisfied with scheme or whatever, but it is enjoyable to be writing this. I don't plan on making this the NewNewLisp or something to take over Lisp again. But maybe it will help promote the use of lisp. I don't know. 02:57:45 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-158-110.netcologne.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:57:47 :-) 02:58:07 *p_l* is going to try compile ECL on VMS 02:58:27 If I ever get to the end of SSH keypair generation >_> 02:58:35 I wonder if I could compile it on my 200LX 02:58:42 For example, Chicken assumes that pointers fit in thirty-two or sixty-four bits. 02:58:43 should take a month or so 02:59:17 Riastradh: I try to take out those assumptions. Pointers can be 16 bits for all I care. :o 02:59:25 Riastradh: I had seen cpus that violate sizeof(char) = 8 :) 02:59:28 What about 128 bits? 02:59:47 p_l, I presume you mean CHAR_BIT == 8? 02:59:50 The bitsize doesn't matter. But I'm sure if I used that assumption, then I could make things more efficient. 03:00:05 reikon [n=thomas@unaffiliated/reikon] has joined #lisp 03:00:42 Riastradh: It was a cpu which addressed by _bit_, not byte/word-size 03:00:55 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.51.51] has joined #lisp 03:01:06 benny` [n=benny@i577A0FCE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:01:09 So you mean platforms `*on*which* sizeof(char) = 8'. 03:01:42 Riastradh: Yeah. And ANSI C require "sizeof(char) = 1" :) 03:02:51 azanar [n=azanar@c-67-183-123-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:53 -!- azanar [n=azanar@c-67-183-123-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:05:28 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:24 sizeof(char) is kind of a silly thing to say 03:07:02 oh I see that was covered, carry on :) 03:07:28 p8m: Not particularly. It can relate your intentions more carefully, and an ANSI-compliant compiler will convert it to 1 anyway. 03:08:31 Then again if no one is reading your source, then who cares? :P 03:08:38 reikon: It's just that supporting such behaviour might be hard when it's result is impossible to get as 1 :) 03:09:20 p_l: I don't think that makes sense? :| 03:09:41 -!- tetha [n=hk@pD9EE7FBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:09:49 Quadrescence: Imagine a cpu where pointers increment by one bit 03:09:50 tetha [n=hk@pD9EE7013.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:00 I am imagining. 03:10:49 Sounds like crazy talk. 03:10:50 so (void *)pointer+1 != (char *)pointer+1 03:11:09 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:11:21 which is assumed in many places by many applications and compilers 03:12:03 fortunately, code for that cpu was probably mainly generated in assembly or a variant of fortran 03:12:22 <3 fortran 03:12:30 Fortunately for us those CPUs aren't made anymore. 03:12:37 Fortranately* 03:13:03 reikon: It is made. It's used as DSP in some places. Can't recall anymore the name 03:14:14 Incrementing by 1 bit would be cool. 03:14:25 arithmetic on void*s ? eww 03:14:27 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1178.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:14:28 Bit fiddling would be so much easier. 03:14:41 dihymo [n=dihymo@75-174-222-25.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:09 reikon: interesting thought, I haven't done many serious projects in c. I'll keep that in mind 03:16:25 -!- KalifG [n=user@32.176.29.171] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:16:35 KalifG [n=user@32.176.29.171] has joined #lisp 03:16:37 p8m: I... like it here. 03:16:50 -!- fph [i=joe@adsl-75-14-202-212.dsl.renocs.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 03:18:28 *p_l* wonders how many hours it will take for his emulated es40 to generate a SSH key pair 03:19:17 p_l: reikon knows everything about encryption. :o 03:20:16 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp7-197.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:20:49 -!- benny` is now known as benny 03:20:59 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:21:50 Unfortunately I had the bad idea of generating an SSH keypair on emulated alpha 03:22:16 *p_l* kills emulator judging it dead 03:22:41 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:44 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 03:24:09 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:28:25 -!- HG` [n=wells@222-153-100-184.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:33:20 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 03:37:25 wasabi___ [n=wasabi@ntoska149014.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:41:09 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:47:33 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska149014.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:49:19 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:20 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:50:59 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:52:19 -!- jao [n=jao@252.Red-79-155-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:54:34 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 03:59:11 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:04:58 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.142.49] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:05:06 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.57.138] has joined #lisp 04:10:32 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 04:10:48 morning ppls 04:11:53 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCF68A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 04:13:30 (defmacro my-macro (first-part-of-name) 04:13:30 `(defun ,first-part-of-name + other-part-of-name 04:13:49 clhs intern 04:13:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 04:14:01 hopw would I put the first-part-of name and the other-part-of-name together 04:14:31 thanx stassats` 04:22:20 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:29:57 -!- wasabi___ [n=wasabi@ntoska149014.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- Thumper_ [n=Thumper@about/essy/coffeeAddict/Thumper] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- _death [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-0-76.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- _dima_ [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- SeveredCross [n=bojanr@about/csharp/regular/severedcross] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- vsync [n=vsync@220-27.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- fgtech [i=nemesis@bnc1.shellium.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- p_l [n=plasek@pp82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- jajcloz_ [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1ECAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- DrTilt [n=browning@75.36.5.64] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- archangelpetro [n=archange@cpc2-oxfd4-0-0-cust85.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279441018.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:57 -!- addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- meingbg [n=user@remote5.student.chalmers.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- HimitsuNaiyou [n=MuneNoKa@par0978.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- nullman [n=nullman@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- aking [n=aking@207.210.78.49] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- tetha [n=hk@pD9EE7013.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- TDT [n=TDT@96.63.32.207.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- v0|d` [n=user@a.ns.core.gen.tr] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- MinnowTaur [n=chatzill@ip68-109-196-203.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- awayekos [n=anekos@pl608.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- prip_ [n=_prip@host100-220-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- poolio [n=poolio@bz.bzflag.bz] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- guenther__ [n=guenther@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-224-126.dsl.look.ca] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:58 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB99B8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-53-5.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- jfactor [n=john@student165-220.hampshire.edu] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@hygiene.bl0rg.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- maxote [n=maxote@84.79.67.254] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- luis [n=user@r42.eu] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:29:59 -!- herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:00 -!- easch [n=easch@purpletree.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:00 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@89.136.176.182] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:00 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:00 -!- eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:00 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:00 -!- vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:08 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:08 -!- acieroid [n=quentin@238.21.83-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:08 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:08 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:08 -!- holycow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:08 -!- CrazyEddy [n=redresse@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:08 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:08 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:08 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:08 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@dhcp-077-248-142-146.chello.nl] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:08 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:08 -!- Soulman [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:08 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:08 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:08 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- andrewy [i=andrewy@209.126.180.153] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- Arnar [n=arnarb@blackhole.hvergi.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- e271 [i=[3HJCT1F@panix3.panix.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- Dazhbog [i=sampo@geek.fi] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.57.138] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- oxygen [i=oxygen@unaffiliated/oxygen] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- bkudria [n=bkudria@kudria.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-156-192.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- flazz [n=franco@qubes.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- Necromas [n=Necromas@141.224.236.113] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- Guest82189 [n=user@72.14.228.89] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-235-220.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- koollman [n=samson_t@sd-9780.dedibox.fr] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0FCE.versanet.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- mechine [n=mutable@220-253-187-75.NSW.netspace.net.au] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@220-135-231-23.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- poet [n=tim@64.198.227.149] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- pmhaddad [n=pmhaddad@24-247-41-171.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- krappie [n=brain@mx.skitzo.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- plan9 [n=stian@revenant.sletner.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- clog [i=nef@bespin.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- delYsid [n=user@debian/developer/mlang] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- KalifG [n=user@32.176.29.171] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.51.51] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- paddy_mullen [n=patrickm@c-68-44-45-244.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- technik [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- exu0 [n=u@dslb-084-056-128-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- dcjackson_ [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro.clark-communications.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- aunwork [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- KingThomasV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@mustang.lysator.liu.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- larstobi [n=larstobi@195.139.173.50] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- rumbleca [n=rumble@174.0.46.123] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- rodge [n=roderic@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- Seb [n=Seb@untangle/dev/seb] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- frodef [n=ffj@69.80-202-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- Thas [n=weechat@97-113-44-93.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-153-151.netcologne.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:09 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-68-15-137.home.otenet.gr] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- rsynnott_ [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- prxq_ [n=mommer@Xd492.x.pppool.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-92.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- Cryovat [i=isis@akuma.no] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-129-29.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-221-231-195.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- mr_uggla_ [i=mzsillan@melkinpaasi.cs.helsinki.fi] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- comex [n=comex@teklinks.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- bob_f [n=bob@mail.phgroup.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@75-174-222-25.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- schme [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- eslick [n=eslick@dhcp-23-106.media.mit.edu] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- reikon [n=thomas@unaffiliated/reikon] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-212-67-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fecade00-157.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- clop [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- myrkraverk`` [n=johann@85-220-125-72.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- sepisultrum [n=enigma@ks35219.kimsufi.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- dfox [n=dfox@rb5cm232.net.upc.cz] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.22] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- younder [i=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- tessier [n=treed@68.15.4.26] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- rey_ [i=pdewacht@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- bfein_ [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- Maddas [n=Maddas@tardis-b23.ee.ethz.ch] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- Martinp23 [i=martinp2@freenode/staff/wikimedia.martinp23] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- peddie [n=matthew@PEDDIE.MIT.EDU] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:12 -!- chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:30:49 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 luis [n=user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 kefka [n=user@ec2-75-101-205-165.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 easch [n=easch@purpletree.org] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 cmatei [n=cmatei@89.136.176.182] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 maxote [n=maxote@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 manuel_ [n=manuel@hygiene.bl0rg.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 jfactor [n=john@student165-220.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-53-5.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB99B8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-224-126.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.57.138] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 wasabi___ [n=wasabi@ntoska149014.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 KalifG [n=user@32.176.29.171] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 dihymo [n=dihymo@75-174-222-25.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 tetha [n=hk@pD9EE7013.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 benny [n=benny@i577A0FCE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.51.51] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 reikon [n=thomas@unaffiliated/reikon] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-153-151.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 clop [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 prxq_ [n=mommer@Xd492.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 oxygen [i=oxygen@unaffiliated/oxygen] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 -!- irc.freenode.net has set mode +o drewc 04:30:49 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-92.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 mle [n=emily@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 Cryovat [i=isis@akuma.no] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 rodge [n=roderic@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 paddy_mullen [n=patrickm@c-68-44-45-244.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 acieroid [n=quentin@238.21.83-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 dfox [n=dfox@rb5cm232.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 workthrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 p_l [n=plasek@pp82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 holycow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-129-29.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 jajcloz_ [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 Thumper_ [n=Thumper@about/essy/coffeeAddict/Thumper] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 technik [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-212-67-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 segv [n=mb@p4FC1ECAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-68-15-137.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 DrTilt [n=browning@75.36.5.64] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 mechine [n=mutable@220-253-187-75.NSW.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 rsynnott_ [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 exu0 [n=u@dslb-084-056-128-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-221-231-195.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 myrkraverk`` [n=johann@85-220-125-72.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 bkudria [n=bkudria@kudria.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 dcjackson_ [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro.clark-communications.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 TDT [n=TDT@96.63.32.207.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 archangelpetro [n=archange@cpc2-oxfd4-0-0-cust85.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 MinnowTaur [n=chatzill@ip68-109-196-203.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:49 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.22] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 younder [i=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 v0|d` [n=user@a.ns.core.gen.tr] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279441018.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 schme [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 CrazyEddy [n=redresse@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 pmhaddad [n=pmhaddad@24-247-41-171.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 eslick [n=eslick@dhcp-23-106.media.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-156-192.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 aunwork [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 KingThomasV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 awayekos [n=anekos@pl608.nas926.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 mikezor [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 meingbg [n=user@remote5.student.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 tessier [n=treed@68.15.4.26] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-223-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 HimitsuNaiyou [n=MuneNoKa@par0978.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 rey_ [i=pdewacht@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 flazz [n=franco@qubes.org] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Necromas [n=Necromas@141.224.236.113] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 bfein_ [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 comex [n=comex@teklinks.org] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 mr_uggla_ [i=mzsillan@melkinpaasi.cs.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 bob_f [n=bob@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 nullman [n=nullman@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Buganini [n=buganini@220-135-231-23.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 _death [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 sepisultrum [n=enigma@ks35219.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-0-76.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 prip_ [n=_prip@host100-220-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Seb [n=Seb@untangle/dev/seb] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Maddas [n=Maddas@tardis-b23.ee.ethz.ch] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Martinp23 [i=martinp2@freenode/staff/wikimedia.martinp23] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 SeveredCross [n=bojanr@about/csharp/regular/severedcross] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 poet [n=tim@64.198.227.149] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Quadrescence [n=quad@unaffiliated/quadrescence] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 _dima_ [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 peddie [n=matthew@PEDDIE.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@mustang.lysator.liu.se] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 poolio [n=poolio@bz.bzflag.bz] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 guenther__ [n=guenther@sahnehaschee.unix-ag.uni-kl.de] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 aking [n=aking@207.210.78.49] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 pragma_ [n=pragma@unaffiliated/pragma/x-109842] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fecade00-157.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 fgtech [i=nemesis@bnc1.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 vsync [n=vsync@220-27.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Dazhbog [i=sampo@geek.fi] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 koning_robot [n=aap@dhcp-077-248-142-146.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 andrewy [i=andrewy@209.126.180.153] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Arnar [n=arnarb@blackhole.hvergi.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 e271 [i=[3HJCT1F@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Soulman [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-235-220.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Guest82189 [n=user@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 koollman [n=samson_t@sd-9780.dedibox.fr] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 -!- irc.freenode.net has set mode +o antifuchs 04:30:50 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 clog [i=nef@bespin.org] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 krappie [n=brain@mx.skitzo.org] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 plan9 [n=stian@revenant.sletner.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 delYsid [n=user@debian/developer/mlang] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 rumbleca [n=rumble@174.0.46.123] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 frodef [n=ffj@69.80-202-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 Thas [n=weechat@97-113-44-93.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 larstobi [n=larstobi@195.139.173.50] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:50 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 04:30:51 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:30:52 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 04:31:13 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:32:48 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:33:12 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 04:33:46 urgh. Connection died. So, any ideas? Is this something I should be using eval-when for?... 04:33:47 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:33:54 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:34:59 you didn't ask anything, did you? 04:35:09 oh shoot. I guess it didn't go through. 04:36:13 It seems asdf isn't reliably loading one of the files in this asdf system. I'm not sure why, but I'll sometimes have to manually go back and C-c C-k the file before its contents actually work. 04:36:30 I'm not really sure why this happens or how to go about figuring out how to fix it :( 04:36:31 xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 04:37:34 http://github.com/sykopomp/sheeple/blob/e4df3a7ea147e401c8a769f9ba52badd931d65cc/sheeple.asd This is the system. The file that doesn't always load is "post-boot". 04:40:07 in what fashion its contents don't work? 04:41:04 http://github.com/sykopomp/sheeple/blob/e4df3a7ea147e401c8a769f9ba52badd931d65cc/src/post-boot.lisp I haven't checked if -all- the definitions in this file do not work, but at the very least, print-sheep does not work unless I manually compile and load. 04:41:11 ramkrsna_ [n=ramkrsna@nat/redhat-in/x-1ad3ccd40ee71925] has joined #lisp 04:41:29 there's also a print-object method in glue.lisp (which is loaded after this file) that actually makes it use print-sheep. 04:43:05 <_death> set *load-verbose* to true and try again 04:43:17 alright 04:44:10 <_death> perhaps *load-print* too 04:44:57 -!- ramkrsna_ [n=ramkrsna@nat/redhat-in/x-1ad3ccd40ee71925] has quit [Client Quit] 04:45:25 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:23 I don't really know how to reliably duplicate it. I haven't been able to figure out what kinds of situations it happens in :-\ 04:46:26 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:46:33 (for example, it's working fine now) 04:47:07 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:47:27 but if the .asd looks fine, and there's nothing I'm missing about the file being full of macros, or about print-object being special somehow... then I guess I'll just keep trying to track it down (somehow) 04:47:30 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:34 manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:43 is there a way to get a list of the slots in a class/instance in SBCL ... 04:59:08 zzo38 [n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com] has joined #lisp 04:59:09 when I googled I get stuff about clos:class-slots...is that the thing to use? 04:59:25 (mop:class-slots (class-of instance)) ? 04:59:48 sb-mop*? 04:59:53 class slots works after finalize inheritance has been called 05:00:18 It appears lisppaste has a bug in it, sending a NOTICE to the channel or directly to lisppaste, containing a VERSION command, even with data afterwards, it still responds! 05:00:30 -!- manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:00:42 find-class? 05:01:11 manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:01:16 mop class-slots 05:01:27 hm 05:01:43 minion: hello? 05:01:44 what's up? 05:01:49 not much :) 05:01:57 It appears lisppaste has a bug in it, sending a NOTICE to the channel or directly to lisppaste, containing a VERSION command, even with data afterwards, it still responds! 05:03:43 Huh? 05:04:01 ...oh, I see. 05:04:39 You can try to send the NOTICE yourself if you don't believe me. 05:04:55 I just did; lisppaste didn't respond, unless my IRC client suppressed its response. 05:06:37 Maybe your IRC client suppressed its response. My computer doesn't suppress anything because I don't use a IRC client, I just connect using netcat. 05:06:48 I *always* connect to IRC using netcat. 05:07:40 Still nothing. What is the exact message you sent to lisppaste? 05:08:12 Do you know if it is because of old version of cl-irc library? lisppaste uses version 0.1.0 but the cl-irc web-page says there is new version available. Did they fix that bug in new version? 05:08:55 The exact command I sent is (control characters are ^A here, but I sent the actual control characters, not ^A): notice lisppaste :^AVERSION netcat^A 05:09:11 Same thing if I send to the channel 05:09:18 OK, now it replies. 05:09:53 What command were you sending before? 05:10:09 I've forgotten who's responsible for lisppaste these days; formerly it was chandler, but I vaguely recall that kpreid or nyef took over or something. 05:10:55 nyef was hacking something with lisppaste recently 05:11:03 you would think lisppaste would be grown up by now 05:13:05 spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 05:13:24 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:13:24 -!- DrTilt [n=browning@75.36.5.64] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:14:41 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:16:36 I do not want to send a e-mail message to cl-irc or to lisppaste because I don't use e-mail. 05:17:22 I used to use e-mail but now I don't anymore. I just wrote a SMTP server that I turn on only when I am expecting a message for confirming the address when registering for a web-site, and then I stop the SMTP when I am finished. 05:17:55 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:31 you browse the web with netcat too? 05:18:49 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:58 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 05:19:11 No, I browse the web with Vonkeror, which is a web-browser I wrote myself because I don't like other web-browser softwares. It is available at: http://zzo38computer.cjb.net/vonkeror/ 05:19:55 is your OS written by you? 05:21:07 No, I'm currently using Windows XP Professional but one day I will use Linux instead. When I do so, I will make up my own Linux distribution and also my own window manager because I don't like the other ones. 05:21:22 i see 05:21:32 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:21:44 *sykopomp* likes making releases of stuff. Feels good, man. 05:21:45 screen -dr 05:21:49 -!- whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa91] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:22:21 sykopomp: then you are not a lisper yet 05:22:25 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:22:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-92.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 05:22:42 stassats`: curses! 05:22:57 stassats`: does it help that I count "releases" as "version tags pushed to github"? 05:23:35 Considering github automatically packs tarballs for you, it's somewhere between the usual "pull from git" and "have this tarball" 05:23:42 I don't program in lisp although I probably could (like if I wanted to write a window manager based on another window manager that is written in Lisp, such as StumpWM). I like Forth programming language, however. I just joined this channel because I didn't know what other channel to put a note for lisppaste bug 05:23:57 sykopomp: no, doesn't help 05:24:19 stassats`: I'll stop tagging stuff, then. Maybe then I'll be recognized as a Serious Lisper :( 05:25:12 Anyways, is it possible to write my own control structures in Lisp, like I can in Forth? 05:25:12 Good morning. 05:25:26 mornin' beach 05:26:00 zzo38: Yes, by using Lisp macros. 05:26:08 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:26:08 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:26:08 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:26:08 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:26:08 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:26:08 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [verne.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:26:09 And does Lisp have anything like DUP command in Forth so an expression can just copy itself, or do I need to use a variable like I would in other programming languages? 05:26:26 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 05:26:26 workthrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 05:26:26 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:26 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 05:26:26 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:26:26 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 05:26:36 zzo38: There is no need to duplicate things in Lisp usually. 05:26:47 unless you're scared of writing the macros 05:26:48 zzo38: and certainly not expressions. 05:26:48 ;) 05:27:37 zzo38: But I think if you want to know more about Lisp, it would be more appropriate to go read a book. 05:27:44 minion: tell zzo38 about PCL. 05:27:45 zzo38: please see PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 05:28:03 Which book do you recomend for me to read? (What ISBN number and title) 05:28:20 manic12__ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:25 -!- manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:28:33 zzo38: minion just told you. 05:28:59 I know. But I was typing the message while minion was also typing the message, so I didn't see it 05:29:07 ah, OK. 05:29:07 But now I do see it 05:29:18 minion: you type too slow. 05:29:19 what's up? 05:30:20 I don't think the speed of typing is the issue, it is the synchronization of who types while someone else types, so messages can get out of order because of wrong synchronization. 05:30:43 zzo38: sykopomp was making a joke. 05:30:56 beach: OK. 05:31:05 so, we need a lock for typing 05:31:08 (mapcar #'sb-mop:slot-definition-name (sb-mop:class-slots (find-class 'dx-web-grid))) 05:31:09 zzo38: minion is a bot. 05:31:30 sykopomp: ssshh! 05:31:50 beach: sorry. It's too painful sometimes... 05:32:11 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:32:13 sykopomp: you know perfectly well what minion thinks about being called that. 05:32:30 minion also uses version 0.1.0 of cl-irc. The cl-irc page mentions version 0.8.1 05:33:16 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 05:36:33 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-153-151.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 05:38:03 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@75-174-222-25.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:40:07 -!- zzo38 [n=zzo38@h24-207-48-53.dlt.dccnet.com] has quit [] 05:40:10 lboard [n=lboard@122.165.28.253] has joined #lisp 05:42:33 djgera [n=djgera@host113.190-31-35.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 05:48:43 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-149-151.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:52:42 Funny guy zzo38. Imagine what we could do with the energy and time of someone like that. 05:53:17 dunno 05:54:23 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-149-151.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 05:54:53 sykopomp: you don't think that would be useful? 05:55:04 (this is purely hypothetical of course) 05:55:05 -!- djgera [n=djgera@host113.190-31-35.telecom.net.ar] has quit [] 05:55:15 I question how much he actually does. 05:55:25 Ah, you might be right. 05:55:43 there's also the issue of people that code only stuff that 'worksforme', which is then unusable to anyone else. 05:55:52 either way, it seems very unexciting. 05:56:35 You have a point. 05:57:41 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:58:28 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 05:59:14 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.51.51] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:04:37 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:07:39 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:18:21 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 06:19:34 vostibackle [n=vosti@cpe-24-28-81-28.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:19:49 is it impossible to have a method named +? 06:20:06 vostibackle: methods don't have names, generic functions do. 06:20:27 vostibackle: you can have a GF named that, but not in the common-lisp package. 06:21:05 (defun +? () (print "It works")) => +? 06:21:08 (+?) => It works 06:21:15 ;) 06:21:19 sykopomp: heh! 06:21:38 beach: I see. If I made one in another package which used common-lisp, would I still be able to use the common-lisp method in that package? 06:21:42 beach: my personal favorite is... 06:21:46 (^_^) => SO CUTE! 06:21:51 vostibackle: you would have to shadow that symbol. 06:22:36 vostibackle: and say cl:* in that package when you want the cl symbol. 06:22:49 vostibackle: and it is still not a method. 06:23:41 beach: then I could define a method new:+ on numbers and my generic function would act like cl:+, right 06:24:00 vostibackle: sure, if you like. 06:24:15 :) 06:24:41 lisp makes me happy 06:24:50 glad to hear it. 06:25:10 *sykopomp* proceeds to make a pure-oop package that converts the entire hyperspec into generic functions. 06:26:36 it would be cool to do it even with just all the mathematical functions. 06:26:43 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:27:08 for an extensible math environment 06:27:16 Hello 06:27:19 vostibackle: It would almost certainly be slow. 06:27:26 yup 06:27:28 hello MrSpec 06:27:36 plus, why would you want to override +? 06:27:50 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-224-126.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 06:27:57 To define it on functions, for example. 06:28:07 well, so that you could do (+ 1 2) and (+ polynomial1 polynomial2) 06:28:29 ((+ (square sin) (square cos)) (literal-real-number 'theta)) ;Value: 1 06:28:42 I think you'd have to turn it into a binary-only function, too, since + accepts &rest args 06:28:54 <_death> it's better to have two generic functions, say `unary+' and `binary+'.. and have a simple function `+' that dispatches appropriately 06:29:21 <_death> (also a nullary value) 06:29:24 dgou [n=dgou@c-67-163-142-94.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:29:34 _death: yeah, like Dylan. 06:29:34 yeah, writing something like (defgeneric add (a b)) is probably a nicer idea than overriding + 06:31:13 <_death> beach: I didn't know Dylan had that.. thanks. 06:32:12 No problem. 06:32:49 where would I look to find the source of e.g. defmethod 06:32:56 in the source of my lisp implementation? 06:33:06 whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa91] has joined #lisp 06:34:00 vostibackle: brace for hilarity if you try to do that for PCL (a very common CLOS implementation) 06:34:26 AMOP gives a sort of decent idea of how to implement a basic CLOS, though. 06:36:36 <_death> vostibackle: I use a locally-compiled sbcl and emacs/slime, so if I'd want to look at the source of `defmethod' I'd just use `M-.' 06:37:13 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit ["leaving"] 06:37:39 <_death> in this case it takes me to the definition in src/pcl/boot.lisp 06:37:40 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:37:56 pcl, again, is terrifying. 06:39:23 yeah, I just found it in the sbcl source :( 06:40:32 sykopomp: AMOP the book? 06:41:03 vostibackle: yes. 06:41:18 sykopomp: ah, it's available at my library. :) 06:41:31 vostibackle: PCL is a fully-conforming clos implementation that is also quite fast, so the code is pretty big and confusing. 06:41:54 but AMOP covers (and includes) a decent subset of CLOS which might give you a good idea of how stuff works. 06:42:10 you could also just grab a copy of closette.lisp and figure things out from the sources :) 06:42:46 coincidentally my library is the PCL 06:43:18 Austin? 06:43:37 yeah 06:44:00 I spent many hours in that library. 06:44:11 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:44:50 They have a great collection of Lars Gustafsson novels. 06:46:40 -!- dgou [n=dgou@c-67-163-142-94.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:49:27 -!- MinnowTaur [n=chatzill@ip68-109-196-203.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:50:36 -!- holycow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:50:57 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:51:05 holycow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 06:56:18 dima2001 [n=dima2001@MOTx6pt3.swm.uni-mannheim.de] has joined #lisp 06:56:24 -!- paddy_mullen [n=patrickm@c-68-44-45-244.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:01:37 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 07:02:33 lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:03:30 rotterrdam [n=tornado@user-12lcsfu.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 07:03:36 wuuussaap!! 07:03:41 :) 07:03:54 I gots question to ax 07:04:04 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0E562.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:08 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB99B8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:04:10 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 07:04:38 rotterrdam: just ask. 07:04:40 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB99B8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:04:55 System_Administr [n=chatzill@Pc3-192.ResNet.uwp.edu] has joined #lisp 07:04:58 rotterrdam: I think you would be more likely to get an answer if you used standard English. 07:06:45 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslc-082-082-054-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:51 well I ask when I finish reading some literature on the subject 07:07:34 http://www.cliki.net/KR Anyone have a handier link to the code here, or more information on KR that doesn't involve contacting this person?... 07:14:35 -!- System_Administr [n=chatzill@Pc3-192.ResNet.uwp.edu] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]"] 07:15:05 psyllo [n=psyllo@67-42-125-229.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:06 great function-names in lisp programming: is-a-p 07:19:56 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 07:23:12 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:37 I guess it could be called just -p? 07:26:50 p-p? 07:26:58 that too! 07:27:04 predicate-p or such 07:27:59 oh, no, is-a-p is a musical predicate ("is this note an a?") 07:28:17 that makes the most sense 07:28:31 but it's actually asking if it is an "is a" 07:31:32 well, it probably is, isn't it? 07:32:41 possibly 07:32:47 <_death> Ayn Rand will tell you that it is 07:32:51 *sykopomp* is reading through KR docs, which is what brought on this comment. 07:39:32 iaindalton [n=iain@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:09 How does one use step in CLISP? 07:41:31 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:42:03 -!- KalifG [n=user@32.176.29.171] has quit [Broken pipe] 07:42:14 KalifG [n=user@32.176.29.171] has joined #lisp 07:48:30 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:49:43 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:49:50 is there a way to hide the swank stack frames in the slime debugger? 07:49:59 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:50:11 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:50:55 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:00 good morning 07:51:46 <_death> of course.. but it is possible that you'll need to write a bit of code (I expect fewer than 20 lines) to make it happen 07:51:56 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 07:52:11 _death: 20 lines of code? :-/ 07:52:22 <_death> fewer.. 07:52:26 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:52:30 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:52:41 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:44 yea, of course it's possible :) I meant to ask if there was some build in functionality for it. 07:52:58 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:53:09 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:57 <_death> not that I know of.. but I was reminded of http://jsnell.iki.fi/blog/archive/2007-12-19-pretty-sbcl-backtraces.html 07:54:25 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:55:05 widening the scope of discussion a little, I'm unsure lisp is really suitable as a working language anymore, the tooling around it is just so anaemic compared to Java 07:56:04 <_death> Quadrescence: I'm pretty sure that it is suitable, as I used it daily for work 07:56:18 I pasted a comment from that link. 07:56:53 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:57:32 Quad: Consider clojure, perhaps. 07:57:55 Quad: But, first, work out what you mean by 'lisp'. 07:59:31 LostMonarch [n=roby@host68-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:00:17 Of course, the same argument also applies to C, python, etc. 08:00:43 Perhaps java has such sanguine tooling because it really needs it. 08:01:17 -!- prxq_ [n=mommer@Xd492.x.pppool.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:01:51 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:02:27 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:57 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 08:04:23 free_tinker [n=willijar@eas-nw709pc01.aston.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:04:26 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 08:06:02 -!- dima2001 [n=dima2001@MOTx6pt3.swm.uni-mannheim.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:06:57 Java tends to create giant codebases 08:07:19 Even without the labour of humans! 08:07:26 borism [n=boris@195-50-207-233-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 08:07:29 Just start up Eclipse, push a button, and *bam* out comes gigantic swaths of code. 08:08:02 Riastradh: and all that code may be browsed when searching for bugs 08:09:30 madnificent: almost like macroexpansion, eh? :D 08:09:53 There are no words for the terrifying nature of the macroexpansions we got shown in the last Boston Lisp Meeting. 08:10:03 "Oh, let me macroexpand this for you guys" 08:10:37 => a screenful or two of text, half of which is composed of unexpanded macros, and so on. 08:10:43 yay lisp 08:11:35 sykopomp: yes, only limiting in its features. It's briliant to stimulate the amount of coders we need 08:11:39 Quadrescence: A simple example from yesterday's practical. In order to define the same functionality, in Java I'd have to make at least 2-3 files, full of classes. I did it in one, <100 sloc clojure file, without directly calling any java stuff even once 08:13:06 madnificent: by the way, I released sheeple 0.3 :) Also, after looking at this http://www.mike-austin.com/inertia/, I think I might write a similar thing for emacs to play around with objects... 08:13:37 if not just write a standalone version, considering the one linked in that page is a measly 1200 lines of ruby. 08:13:41 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 08:13:51 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-212-67-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:14:20 sykopomp: looks fancy. I need to find time here to structure my life a bit, will look at the persistent backend for sheeple 08:15:13 madnificent: it doesn't really exist right now. I just finished making the lambda-lists in it work like CLOS', so I'm just now starting to look at how much of a MOP is needed to implement something along the lines of bknr. 08:16:15 probably gonna end up cannibalizing significant chunks of bknr in the process. Translation shouldn't be horribly hard. 08:16:15 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:16:27 sykopomp: if you have a way to handle the indexing of objects (which might be hard to get right due to the nature of your system), the datastore could probably be used transparantly 08:17:01 madnificent: if you have ideas on how they should be indexed, now is probably the time to start throwing them at me, since I haven't started coding yet 08:17:46 as far as the mop goes, I get the impression that all I really need is property-access MOP stuff, and maybe a method on finalize-sheep or somesuch. 08:18:26 man. i really wish there were some way to serialize function objects. That would be so incredibly handy. 08:21:43 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:39 sykopomp: that is indeed somewhat sad. I don't really have a clear view as to how I'd prefer the indexing to work with this flexible scheme, as the requirements will probably change between different usecases 08:23:37 robyonrails [n=roby@host68-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:24:01 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host68-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:24:17 madnificent: properties are meant to be dynamic, but not to the extent where they would constantly be changing as the application runs, so it's probably pretty safe to go ahead and index stuff and change index-related stuff if a slot is added or removed. 08:24:34 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host68-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:29:05 masm [n=masm@a83-132-152-110.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 08:29:20 -!- KalifG [n=user@32.176.29.171] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:31:15 Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has joined #lisp 08:31:25 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 08:31:47 dima2001 [n=dima2001@141.19.145.146] has joined #lisp 08:32:29 Can you use a `,' in a the middle of a symbol in a backquoted form without producing a space? i.e (defmacro test-macro (a) `(defun blah-,a ())) 08:33:18 psyllo: no? 08:33:40 Or do I have to go about this another way like using read-from-string or another way of defining functions. 08:33:54 ,(intern (format nil "BLAH-~A" a)) 08:34:03 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.160.144] has joined #lisp 08:34:11 lichtblau: That's how I've done it in elisp without a macro. 08:35:13 i.e (let ((handler (intern (concat "rcirc-handler-" item)))) (eval `(defun ,handler (process sender args text) ... 08:35:32 Is this the most correct (only?) way to do this? 08:36:35 (in CL) 08:38:03 use "RCIRC-HANDLER-" 08:38:16 otherwise you'll get a nice |foo| symbol ;) 08:38:56 sykopomp: That code is elisp evaluated. But yeah, totally right about CAPS. 08:39:34 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Valete!"] 08:39:41 you asked how to do this in CL 08:39:48 My question is whether that elisp approach I took is the correct way to go in CL. (I don't even know if it's the best way in elisp) 08:40:00 it works in CL 08:40:40 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 08:41:15 sykopomp: Sorry, I was just using that code as an example. It works, but is it the way to go? 08:41:27 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E562.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:41:59 psyllo: seems fine to me, but I might be wrong. 08:42:18 sykopomp: Cool man. Thanks for the help. 08:42:24 s'coo 08:42:58 -!- xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:47:57 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:51:55 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 08:53:45 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:54:09 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 08:55:04 kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has joined #lisp 08:55:19 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:56:14 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:56:48 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:57:10 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:57:32 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 08:57:34 neerolyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 08:59:02 -!- neerolyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Client Quit] 08:59:08 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Client Quit] 09:01:57 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:03:14 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp100.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 09:03:38 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:34 -!- r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-68-15-137.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["rr"] 09:05:47 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslc-082-082-054-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:07:50 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:07:55 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:07:57 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 09:09:26 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 09:09:54 Is there a way to get milliseconds in get-universal-time? 09:10:27 no standard 09:11:45 you can use get-internal-real-time 09:11:47 good morning 09:12:08 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:12:58 trebor_dki: Top o' da marnin' to yah 09:13:09 xristos: thanks! 09:13:16 get-internal-real-time would be the best to use as the index timestamp for elephant? 09:14:17 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 09:14:24 get-internal-real-time is implementation dependant 09:14:45 psyllo: your nick reminds me of sth (; far in the past ;) 09:15:00 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Valete!"] 09:15:21 xristos: get-internal-real-time don't return milliseconds in sbcl :( 09:15:46 tomoyuki28jp: (/ (get-internal-real-time) internal-time-units-per-second) 09:15:55 tomoyuki28jp: there are ways in osicat and in iolib 09:16:05 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:16:17 saikat [n=saikat@ip68-5-143-186.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:25 trebor_dki: That's cool. I don't even know what "sth (; far 09:16:25 in the past ;)" means. 09:16:33 Sorry about that bad paste. 09:16:56 trebor_dki: uhm, this returns the same values. (dotimes (x 3) (print (/ (get-internal-real-time) internal-time-units-per-second))) 09:17:36 mega1 [n=mega@3e70dafc.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:18:00 <_death> maybe that operation is performed rather quickly.. what's an "index timestamp" btw 09:18:24 tomoyuki28jp: maybe you put some work-load for the cpu into your loop (maybe i misunderstand your problem). 09:18:34 splittist [n=splittis@18-0.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 09:18:39 morning 09:18:54 Treating a timestamp like a unique value. Is that even good practice? Especially as a primary key. 09:19:06 _death: ex: created time stamp. I want to keep the order they created. 09:19:09 <_death> no, that seems like a horrible practice 09:20:04 <_death> how about auto-incremented id 09:20:13 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 09:20:27 _death: oh yeah, it's a way. 09:20:32 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:21:45 <_death> and "order" shouldn't usually be critically important.. as it's possible for two objects to be inserted at the same moment 09:22:04 <_death> (+should) 09:23:01 _death: yes 09:25:25 r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-68-15-137.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:25:59 But the whole getting time acurate to the millisecond is a good question. How should we do that in CL? 09:26:26 <_death> there's no standard way 09:26:41 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 09:26:48 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 09:27:07 psyllo: a time stamp is likely a bad pk 09:27:24 pstickne: What's a `pk'? 09:27:32 nm 09:27:45 <_death> What's a `nm'? nm :) 09:27:47 because timestamps have some finite precision (usually) that can be exceeded 09:27:57 Yeah... but the primary key aside it's a good question. 09:29:25 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 09:30:43 Does anyone else hate osdir. 09:31:06 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA2B2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:31:26 I'm always clicking "remove" on the google search results hoping that it helps knock them of the results some day. 09:31:34 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 09:31:40 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:33:27 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 09:34:20 sykopomp: why not accessor? (:manipulator) 09:34:23 psyllo: then it wouldn't by symbol manipulation anymore, would it? 09:34:26 lichtblau: still ignores the issue of which package the new symbol should be in 09:34:29 psyllo: I think you might be interning the symbol in a package you don't want to intern it in. So I'd think about that before interning it from a string. I think it is an acceptable manner to work in (yet I'm not a guru) 09:34:35 madnificent: it breaks with-accessors 09:34:47 I hate :manipulator 09:34:57 I wish I could come up with a better alternative to :accessor 09:35:21 -!- H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB99B8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:35:45 <_death> selector? 09:36:21 _death: ehhh... that doesn't quite seem to carry the same meaning. 09:40:37 madnificent: I think I might write something like define-prototype after all, but make it just a wrapper around (defvar =prototype= (clone ...)) that redefines the object, but keeps all the children. After playing with sheeple for a while, I started really missing being able to do something like redefine a class in the text file... 09:44:32 Red Daly's questionnaire seems a little odd. Sounds not unlike what Kenny could post as a "road to xyz" joke on cll. 09:44:35 How do you use step in CLISP? 09:47:45 iaindalton: (step (loop :for i :from 1 :to 3 :do (print i))) 09:47:47 iaindalton: http://osdir.com/ml/lisp.clisp.general/2002-01/msg00117.html 09:48:13 Gah! osdir strikes again. 09:48:41 lichtblau: Context? 09:49:03 iaindalton: I don't know. I have never stepped a Common Lisp program. I usually use print statements. 09:49:12 tcr: sbcl-devel 09:49:21 Why are those loop keywords prefixed by a :? That's not how PCL shows it. Also, I'm given this to step through, but I don't know how to step: (step (if (oddp 5) 'yes 'no)) 09:50:37 iaindalton: When you say CLISP do you mean Common Lisp? Or do you mean CLISP as in http://clisp.cons.org/ ? 09:50:46 The latter. 09:50:47 practical common lisp, portable commonloops, perry-castaneda library... :O 09:50:53 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-186-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:51:16 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:51:23 lichtblau: I'd suggest him to join in here and pester people like you with questions just like I do occasionally >:) 09:52:04 Is it common practice to step a CL program? 09:52:12 <_death> iaindalton: loop keywords are identified using just their symbol-name.. the symbols `:foo' and `foo' have equal symbol names.. so it's a matter of style 09:52:43 OK 09:52:59 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:01 *iaindalton* doesn't usually type something longer when something shorter will do. 09:53:20 psyllo: The current state of stepping support is not so great in SBCL+Slime. I'd think the commercial implementations with their IDEs make it probably more convenient. 09:53:25 iaindalton: some people prefer using the keyword form of stuff in LOOP because it makes it clearer which parts are the keywords. 09:53:34 Ah 09:53:41 and considering the difference is a single character... 09:54:00 And to avoid collisions if you later use a package exporting one of these 'keywords' that are not exported from CL. 09:54:27 tcr: Wow, that's good to know. I've never tried it. Maybe I should. 09:54:29 number of characters is irrelevant. Number of keystrokes would be a better metric. But you're right that it hardly makes a difference. 09:54:31 psyllo: I debug mostly by inserting FORMAT expressions into relevant functions, recompile then, then either redo whatever I have done, or if a Slime Debugger is open, invoke the RETRY restart, or restart from an appropriate frame 09:54:51 psyllo: It's really pleasant. And you get exactly the information you asked for. 09:55:32 iaindalton: common lisp stuff is generally written in a much more verbose style than a number of other languages, at least by the conventions that I learned from (and use) 09:56:05 one of my least favorite aspects so far ;-) 09:56:16 there's a lot of value in self-documenting code, imo, at least in lisp, so I'd rather-have-a-long-function-name than sctchmyhd_ltr about what it's supposed to be ;p 09:56:48 tcr: print statements is what I do too. I have used steppers a lot in the past. I've just never tried in CL. Well, I know what I am doing before I go to bed. 09:56:49 Me, I like to have my cake, and eat it, too! 09:56:56 <_death> scratch-head-and-sigh 09:57:16 _death: ltr => later! 09:57:30 <_death> yes, I'm off to sleep.. later! 09:57:39 vwlsr!ncsry 09:57:59 good night 09:58:06 good night 09:58:14 tomoyuki28jp: how's your framework going? 09:58:23 sykopomp: I try to keep my CL code width under 140 characters. 09:59:00 psyllo: I cap my width at 100chars 09:59:06 I win! 09:59:14 and try to limit my files to ~400 lines 09:59:26 I usually split something into more files if it crosses the 400 line 09:59:26 strchr may be opaque to a newbie but it's a barrier one quickly surpasses. Not that everything should be so short, but there's no harm in things built in having short names. 09:59:28 I don't pay much attention to file length. 09:59:32 I like long files. 10:00:17 sykopomp: I am working hard on it. The project is adopted for this program. http://www.ipa.go.jp/english/humandev/third.html 10:00:18 psyllo: I find that things become much more annoying to find and refer to, and mentally split up, when the file becomes longer than that 10:00:21 (for me) 10:00:56 I will only work for the project until the end of coming Sep. 10:01:22 I am currently writing unit tests, and almost done with it. I will add more features after that. 10:01:31 iaindalton: I disagree. Every program you read you have to learn the vocabulary for. Understanding that vocabulary easily helps legibility. I would ask: What benefit does a short function name have? 10:01:39 tomoyuki28jp: "creator" always struck me as an interesting term -- does it refer exclusively to programmers, or to all creative endeavors? 10:02:03 sykopomp: I use emacs and it helps me mitigate that. 10:02:03 sykopomp: only for programmers. 10:02:12 tomoyuki28jp: Oh I see. Thank you. 10:02:34 ianmcorvidae: If you're new to a code base, and you're trying to get acquainted with some part of it, verbose names make it clear whether you want to look at a function or not. 10:02:42 psyllo: I use emacs as well, and I'm quite comfortable isearching for what I want inside a file. 10:02:44 -!- aunwork [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:02:51 psyllo: when something feels verbose, it's disagreeable. It's not something I can express well. 10:02:54 sykopomp: Oh, I mean the MITOH project use the term only for programmers. I am not sure in general. 10:03:05 tomoyuki28jp: ohh ok. I meant in general, yes :P 10:03:21 sykopomp: I use narrowing to help with that. Never had a problem with a long file before. 10:04:00 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:04:02 jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:26 (not that Lisp is syntactically verbose) 10:04:26 psyllo: Being able to focus my concentration on smaller concepts by file helps me. There's certainly a lot of people that love long files. 10:04:35 psyllo: splitting a file can help with dependcies - not having to recompile stuff that depends on a part of the file you haven't touched. But with speeds these days it could well be a taste thing. 10:04:38 But I sort of boggle when i see these 1500-line files 10:04:48 just orthographically (if that's the right term) 10:05:05 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:05:36 iaindalton: needing a full form vs having nice operator shortcuts makes it more verbose, too 10:05:52 compare (append list1 list2) to list1 ++ list2 10:05:53 1500 is totally non boggling. Tens of thousands would be boggling to me. 10:06:06 rcirc is a nice 2500 line elisp file. I love it. 10:06:39 psyllo: long file lengths is a disease particularly noticeable in elisp code. Perhaps because of the crappy module system? 10:07:16 syntactically, splittist: My main consideration for splitting out a file is modularity not file length. Meaning, "Does this code belong in another file with a more appropriate name." 10:07:36 sykopomp: I haven't gotten far enough in my learning of Lisp to answer this yet, but I don't understand why Lisp can't overload operators. 10:07:48 Because it could lead to unpredictable behavior? 10:08:08 psyllo: sheeple is ~1770 lines of code (according to sloccount) and it's split into 13 files :) 10:08:14 is there a way to define a macro which gives its body access to other macros? 10:08:19 sykopomp: Gah! 10:08:29 iaindalton: You can shadow functions if you want. 10:08:41 psyllo: sure, but I think people can have (demonstrably do have?) different thresholds for that. 10:09:06 but I consider doing that to be kinda nasty and unpleasant. I prefer building any flexibility I need on top of and around the existing pre-defined stuff. 10:09:23 splittist: I think a big factor is what your development environment is like and how you use it, no? 10:09:34 I mean.. I agree with you splittist. 10:09:37 sykopomp: does that mean you could make + act like append when given two lists? 10:09:48 but you could, say, shadow :+ and turn it into a binary generic function 10:10:01 psyllo: yes. And I agree with me too (: 10:10:13 iaindalton: sure, although I'd personally prefer to use a name other than + and keep + as an arithmetic function. 10:10:23 partly because it's much faster that way. 10:10:57 iaindalton: Modifying `+' seems reasonable, I agree. 10:11:23 psyllo: It's also very easy to figure out what's what just by looking at the filenames, which is part of the reason I split stuff up that way. Instead of having to read through all the header comments along the file... 10:11:36 sykopomp: I'm just saying, (append l1 l2) is longer than l1 + l2 because that's the function name the spec writers chose, not because it has to be that way, right? 10:12:35 iaindalton: (defgeneric add (a b)) (defmethod add ((list1 list) (list2 list)) (append list1 list2)) (defmethod add ((x number) (y number)) (+ x y)) 10:12:53 iaindalton, sykopomp: Isn't this what generic (polymophic) functions are for? 10:13:09 iaindalton: if you make the generic function named + then you either have to use cl-user:+ for numbers or you get really slow addition 10:13:18 iaindalton: add is pretty reasonable, but you have to consider that making it a generic function is going to be very slow. 10:13:26 Yeah, so where `+' isn't a generic function you can't specialize on it, right? 10:13:47 psyllo: no, but you can trivially shadow it. 10:14:03 Why isn't + acting as both addition and append operator in Python and Java slow? 10:14:07 I think it would be reasonable to want to, but you can't so no big deal to me. I can use `add' or whatever. 10:14:27 -!- younder [i=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:15:03 iaindalton: I imagine they're either slower, or they cheat by not actually dispatching stuff and compiling the dispatch away. 10:15:08 iaindalton: I would guess that in Java + is just syntax and compiles to something nice. 10:15:10 slower than they would be otherwise* 10:16:01 schme: Is that not something one could implement in Lisp then? I'm not far enough in Gentle to fully understand this business yet. 10:16:12 It's probably slow compared to how screaming fast `+' is optimized to be. 10:16:33 iaindalton: I suppose one could, sure. 10:16:39 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 10:16:44 you could implement it 10:16:48 the question is why bother? 10:16:55 schme: There must be a reason it hasn't been done. What would that be? 10:16:55 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:05 not to mention, shadowing + means you can't do (+ 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 .. n) anymore. 10:17:21 since generic functions dispatch on a finite number of arguments. 10:17:48 iaindalton: I have no idea why it has not been done. To me it seems it does not fit quite so well with CL in general, and well.. one would have to make an APPEND to not get confused when programming anyway ;) 10:17:52 + for strings :S 10:17:59 So one can't have an overloaded + without some caveats? 10:18:15 Something like that. 10:18:25 But you could rewrite + 10:18:40 iaindalton: For the most part. The same applies to just about any language. 10:18:56 Whack a big TYPECASE in there. 10:19:05 Smalltalk allows you to alter a bunch of classes, and if you alter the wrong thing, you're in for a world of pain. 10:19:20 Of course, then you run into issues when you want to use Mr A's generic numbers + and Miss B's generic matrix + and Master Mistaken's generic string + abomination. 10:19:24 But what to do with (+ 1 2 "bananas" 15 (make-instance 'whale)) ? 10:19:32 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 10:19:49 iaindalton: personally, I don't like the whole + for string-appending thing. 10:20:00 I -love- 'synergize' though. 10:20:02 :D 10:20:11 Aww, sure, improving SBCL for the sake of Debian's shootout benchmarks sounds like the greatest idea of this year! 10:20:19 Well there's PHP's . for appending. Looks like it's not takin in CL 10:20:32 taken* 10:20:41 (synergize 1 2) => 3, (synergize "a" "b") => "ab", (synergize "a" 1) => "a1", and so on. 10:20:45 perhaps it should become standard... 10:20:59 sykopomp: Maybe you should rename SYNERGIZE to + ;) 10:21:17 schme: no! SYNERGIZE is superior in every way. 10:21:22 Ok. 10:21:27 That is .. good. I guess (: 10:21:29 and it's much more web2.0 ready than something ancient and outdated like '+ 10:21:35 hehehehehe. 10:21:55 get with the times. 10:21:57 But does it (synergize "file://my-funky-javascript" "http://foo.com"), eh eh? 10:22:49 schme: => # 10:23:02 careful funcalling it, its behavior is undefined. 10:23:12 iaindalton: What you could do if you really want to use + for strings is the generic method thing, or write yerself a new + with a big TYPECASE or some such.. it will just be.. so very ugly and slow (: 10:23:20 So, are generic functions a lot slower than normal functions? 10:23:24 iaindalton: Well maybe not. You could compile it all away to niceness. 10:23:41 schme: maybe if he goes into the SBCL internals. 10:23:48 psyllo: That seems to be implementation dependant (: 10:23:51 and crawl through PCL 10:23:52 D: 10:24:00 Hmm.. 10:24:03 schme: sounds hairy. I'll wait until I'm a master hacker :-) 10:24:09 schme: I use SBCL and ACL. 10:24:26 iaindalton: I think ... maybe you will forget the whole idea ;) 10:24:32 *iaindalton* didn't like PCL's teaching style 10:24:35 psyllo: PCL is fairly fast, but calling a plain function is going to be faster in general, since calling a generic function takes at least a couple more steps (and memory) than regular functions do. 10:24:37 -!- saikat [n=saikat@ip68-5-143-186.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:24:51 *schme* goes to buy coffee instead. 10:25:00 sykopomp: Yeah. I know it's not just as fast for faster ;P 10:25:02 Wait, you're not talking about the book PCL, are you 10:25:04 iaindalton: PCL is a very fast CLOS implementation developed by Xerox, and it's the one SBCL uses. 10:25:45 I'm going to try some stuff and benchmark it... oh wait, I never learned how to get milliseconds. 10:25:46 just like Python, when mentioned in this channel, often refers to CMUCL's compiler, not to the language 10:26:33 sykopomp: Thanks for the tidbit on PCL. 10:26:40 psyllo: (time (dotimes (i 100000000) (+ 1 2))) 10:27:00 PCL is very big, very fast, and a very scary codebase (for me) 10:27:02 sykopomp: I was joking, but yeah. 10:27:51 So, what is sheeple. I can't find it. 10:27:59 iaindalton: maybe it'll hit you at some point that '+ isn't a holy symbol that must be used for appending no matter what the cost ;) 10:28:10 psyllo: http://cliki.net/sheeple 10:28:14 Nevermind... found it. 10:28:16 I'm a dorkus. 10:28:20 it's something I'm working on 10:28:36 in a nutshell, CLOS with prototypes instead of classes. 10:28:40 that just about sums it up. 10:28:53 LOL @ POOP Framework 10:29:01 sykopomp: that first paragraph is genius 10:29:24 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 10:29:33 *sykopomp* always wondered why prototype language people never bothered calling it POOP, since it's the most obvious acronym 10:29:54 sykopomp: Of course I don't think that. It's just that earlier someone said one reason Lisp looks longer is it has things like append instead of + in other languages. 10:30:13 iaindalton: it's much more than that. 10:30:40 iaindalton: minor things like that will affect stupid micro-examples such as quicksort, when compared to something like haskell with optimized syntax. 10:30:53 iaindalton: People who put a give a lot of weight to LOC and code width are sheeple. 10:31:10 Don't get me wrong. They matter... but that's not the full story. 10:31:31 Those people are one step away from being people who don't use Lisp because of parens. 10:31:40 iaindalton: In general, lisp is written in a much more verbose style, but that makes it quite readable in my experience, and I haven't seen a significant increase in linecount due to it. 10:31:44 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.160.144] has quit [] 10:31:45 I'm not arguing from that viewpoint; it's just that a lot of long words as code looks intimidating to a newbie like me 10:31:51 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:32:12 iaindalton: that's understandable. OTOH, a lot of specialized syntax is really intimidating to me. 10:32:17 iaindalton: After a year of Lisp. I can say that it's the most legible language I've ever used. 10:32:21 like... perl 10:32:40 *sykopomp* also finds lisp incredibly legible, even when reading complex algorithms. 10:33:21 However... prefix notation for math is not as readable. (+ 1 1) will never be as readable for me... but at least there is no order of operations problem. 10:33:29 *iaindalton* is new to lisp, so understandably finds it strange, but also intriguing 10:33:40 English doesn't work with (+ 1 1) because we say and think 1 + 1. 10:33:44 psyllo: it's grown on me. I use clisp in a terminal as my calculator :) 10:33:58 and I actually prefer it to 1+1 10:34:02 sykopomp: If I ever get there I'll eat my words 10:34:14 psyllo: that is a good argument for 1+1, less so for (1+1)*2 10:34:16 psyllo: YMMV 10:34:22 *iaindalton* uses Emacs' RPN calc so lisp math is doubly weird. A third syntax to remember! :D 10:35:08 actually, i like (+ a b c d f g) when calculating how much money will it cost 10:35:23 H4ns, sykopomp: If I could get the English right in my head I could see me changing my opinion. 10:35:43 H4ns: are there any good resources on implementing an object database using the MOP that might be useful for understanding what's up, or should reading through the code for something like bknr be enough? 10:36:06 psyllo: It works when you think of + as a function (as it is) and say "call + with the parameters 1 and 1" 10:36:13 it's pretty easy in english: sum these numbers: a b c 10:36:23 psyllo: 'add' rather than 'plus' (+ 1 1) -> 'add one and one [and ...]' 10:36:23 H4ns: I'm trying to write just enough of a MOP for now to be able to slap a persistence thing into sheeple, but I'm not sure how much of a MOP that really needs... 10:36:30 stassats`: yup, exactly 10:36:37 daniel: Type exactly what I wold think in English. 10:37:11 Call plus and with arguments a b c? 10:37:15 sykopomp: i can't recommend anything in particular, no. i knew some of the literature and some other object databases before we wrote the datastore, but nothing comes to my mind in particular. 10:37:34 H4ns: hm. Okay, thank you. 10:37:44 Does it ever get to the point where you can look at a bit of mathematical code and say, hey, I know that formula, it's the quadratic equation (or something)? 10:38:06 psyllo: my brain thinks "Perform an addition on these numbers" 10:38:34 reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:38:46 iaindalton: I don't really write much mathematical code, and I don't know how many people actually write a lot of manually arithmetic-heavy code. 10:38:48 sykopomp: I think your English is to verbose. It may be that you don't think in English. 10:39:08 And is infix notation nature or nurture? Did any cultures use another notation before they merged with western culture? 10:39:20 psyllo: Verbosity is irrelevant when I'm thinking in concepts instead of language. 10:39:39 sykopomp: Now, when pair programming is really what I have had in mind during this conversation. 10:39:45 English is my second language, but Spanish is no different in how it orders mathematical stuff. 10:40:35 sykopomp: Yes. I (we all) do things regardless of verbosity of our spoken languages... but when having to verbalize to yourself for clarity for when pairing I'd like to get that English right. 10:40:38 psyllo: I don't actually narrate every single character I type, I don't see how this is a problem even for pair programming... 10:41:26 psyllo: in lisp, things become pretty easy when you get yourself to think with the s-expressions "this s-exp is an addition, evaluate it and then evaluate the containing s-exp, which is a multiplication" 10:41:29 sykopomp: Sounds like you've gotten to that point. I'm not there with the prefix notation and arithmetic. 10:41:39 -!- rotterrdam [n=tornado@user-12lcsfu.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:41:46 that's how it goes in my mind. I don't think of them as mathematical operators. I think of them as function calls. 10:41:49 sykopomp: Sure, but that's not my problem. 10:41:53 doesn't the hyperspec contain pronounciation suggestions? CLtL does. 10:42:09 it's not 'prefix notation', it's just 'function calling' 10:42:24 splittist: cltl, or cltl2? both? 10:42:32 sykopomp: Sure, but we are talking in the context of arithmetic. 10:42:34 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:42:46 psyllo: makes no difference to me. They're operations. 10:42:50 sykopomp: I know you are trying to say that I should think of it as function calling. 10:42:55 Well, CLtL2 is where i've seen it, but I imagine it's in v1 too. 10:43:10 so it's the same to me to say do_addition(1 2 3) than (+ 1 2 3) 10:43:28 sykopomp: Sure. I get it. To give context to this conversation. What we are talking about is a barrier to entry for Lisp. 10:43:57 I think of syntax as a barrier of entry as well. 10:44:24 *splittist* thinks barriers to entry are unfairly maligned 10:44:42 sykopomp: When I put my Lisp advocate hat on I like to be able to explain how to think about things. For people to start using prefix notation for arithmetic is a big deal. 10:44:48 barriers to progress are probably an unmitigated evil, though 10:44:49 having to know how such and such language parses 1+2*3 differently than the other seems like a bigger problem than having to understand (* 3 (+ 1 2)) 10:44:56 sykopomp: Parens are another stupid big deal too. 10:45:13 psyllo: they're just easy, obvious targets. I don't think they're the real problems. 10:45:19 FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has joined #lisp 10:45:25 sykopomp: Sure... but talk to me like a Lisp newb. Those arguments don't hold water. 10:45:48 psyllo: no, they don't but if you don't want to try lisp, infix notation isn't going to get you to. 10:46:09 and if you're actually trying to learn it, (+ 1 2) won't stop you from writing a mathematically-heavy language. 10:46:21 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:47:05 sykopomp: I agree. I've tried to keep track of all the things that make Lisp inaccessible to others so that I can explain them properly when I'm asked about it. If I could get the English right for arithmetic it would help. 10:47:10 by the same token, doing (/ 5 9) yields 5/9 in lisp whereas many other languages would yield something like 0.5555, or hell.. even 0 10:47:20 deliana [n=deliana@147.210.246.189] has joined #lisp 10:47:21 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:27 The secret is to get to people early, before they've learned other programming languages. At that time, _all_ languages seem weird and intimidating. 10:47:37 lisp is quite well-suited for mathematics, including arithmetic, and I think the matter of using + as a regular function is nitpicky and completely misses the point. 10:47:38 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:48:01 sykopomp: I don't really buy that logic.. all languages seem weird and intimidating when you're blank. Don't buy it :) 10:48:42 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:48:43 schme: what exactly are you replying to? 10:48:58 sykopomp: oh mistab. 10:49:05 ah ok :) 10:49:11 sykopomp: sorry! 10:49:13 Surely the normal way of saying 1 + 1 in english is not 'one plus one' (that's just reading the symbols) but 'add one and one'. 10:49:16 schme: I was just confused! 10:49:20 iaindalton: I don't really buy that logic.. all languages seem weird and intimidating when you're blank. Don't buy it :) 10:49:30 with infix notation i can't name my functions with #\-, #\_ is disgusting 10:50:01 by the way, I learned a teensy bit of python before I got into Lisp. Lisp is my main language, and I consider it my first "real" language learned. 10:50:08 schme: Why don't you buy it? 10:50:25 iaindalton: Because my own experience of things was not like that (: 10:50:29 maybe that's why I like it so much even though I'm not one of these old hats who actually know what they're doing :-\ 10:50:34 Ah, mine were 10:51:03 I'm mostly clueless. I am (was?) a film student, not a cs major (or minor, or cs anything for that matter) 10:51:16 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 10:51:22 Pointer manipulation in C was as mindboggling to learn as lack of infix or parentheses or anything else 10:52:08 anyways, I'm going to go to sleep. Goodnight, #lisp. 10:52:17 iaindalton: Well maybe that is where my head is broken. I didn't find pointers mindboggling at all. 10:52:24 sykopomp: Night. 10:52:31 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 10:52:37 Another issue for getting into Lisp is a good editor. When I say use emacs is like "ahhh no emacs wtf...". Too much stigma attached to emacs and Lisp :P 10:52:46 schme: I've never actually done C, but they seem more annoying and nasty to deal with than they seem "hard" 10:52:48 Also I was pretty confused learning OO in Java because of all the "we'll explain this later" required 10:52:49 psyllo: That is a tricky one (: 10:53:09 iaindalton: please look at http://phil.nullable.eu/ 10:53:17 re: editor 10:53:46 sykopomp: What am I looking at? 10:53:50 sykopomp: Awesome 10:53:50 sykopomp: C has a certain sexy charm. But it's nothing difficult about it. As long as one knows that stuff goes into RAM, and it has an address (: 10:54:09 sykopomp: Main greatness of it is the lack of GC :D 10:54:13 iaindalton: it's a nice, simple text editor for common lisp with a built-in repl. 10:54:25 sykopomp: I use emacs :D 10:54:28 schme: <3 GC 10:54:38 *sykopomp* doesn't want to manage memory :( 10:54:43 *stassats`* finds most hard part of c pointers is remembering difference between & and *, i can't think of a good mnemonic 10:54:47 iaindalton: I never learnt Java, so maybe I'm missing out on some fucked up experience there (: 10:54:56 sykopomp: BAH! 10:54:58 (: 10:55:32 Personally I reckon that understanding OO is a bit odd, pointers is a breeze.. is how the computer works, no? :) 10:55:56 Also this is why everyone should start out with a good book on hardware, and only get to do assembly for the first 5 years ;) 10:56:08 i mean, what is reference and what is dereference, it's harder then car vs. cdr 10:56:13 schme: I totally disagree. 10:56:25 schme: I like having learned all the high-level concepts before even touching low-level topics. 10:56:29 stassats`: Good point I guess (: 10:56:45 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-116-173.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:56:47 sykopomp: Well, my mind is broken (: 10:56:59 psyllo: Of course you do. Everyone disagrees (: 10:57:00 schme: Well, Hello world has a lot of boilerplate. Something like: 10:57:00 class Foo { 10:57:00 public static void main(String[] args) { 10:57:00 System.out.println("Hello, world!"); 10:57:00 } 10:57:00 } 10:57:04 schme: you're not an exception, this is a common split I see. 10:57:13 First chapter of SICP explains Computer Science very well. I don't think we should be focusing too much on the "computer". 10:57:19 sykopomp: I seem to remember someone saying one sholud start in the middle. Wherever that is :) 10:57:20 iaindalton: please don't paste java in here. 10:57:40 schme: those are the fence-sitters we should be trying to convert to our individual camps. 10:57:47 Hahaha. 10:57:52 sorry. anyway, you can imagine how confusing a newbie might find that 10:57:52 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 10:58:00 Now I got coofee on the keyboard from laughing :( 10:58:09 schme: we could work together, though. You could write me a nice GC that's able to reliably do real-time apps ;) 10:58:16 iaindalton: Yes. I can imagine :) 10:58:28 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.171.120] has joined #lisp 10:58:38 you can hack your low-level junk, and I can hack my sweet-ass codez. 10:58:40 ;) 10:58:46 sykopomp: I actually ordered a book on GC that was suggested. So maybe in 2015 or when I get spare time 10:58:56 sounds like a plan. 10:58:57 psyllo: i remember, in the video sicp it was said that computer science is nor about computer, neither about science, so yes 10:59:21 In the meantime, I'll proceed to perfect Sheeple and declare it to be the logical replacement for CLOS in CLHS2.0 10:59:32 Eeexcellent. 10:59:43 (CLHS2.0: Web Edition, chaired by PG himself) 11:00:00 Did I just see something on reddit saying "watch PG write his blog" ? 11:00:03 Beket [n=stathis@ppp-94-68-84-56.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:00:11 essay 11:00:18 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 11:00:24 psyllo: I agree on the SICP should not have a big chunk on hardware, ya :) 11:00:51 stassats`: that's the first lecture, I think. 11:01:02 the whole "What is computer science" spiel. 11:01:16 ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 11:02:04 I hear a lot in this channel about how CL has a package system but not a module system. I'm not sure I understand. What is the difference between a package and a module? What can you do with one that you can't do with the other? 11:02:33 Hmm.. I kind thought it was the same thing. 11:02:49 So did I, before I started hanging out here. :-P 11:03:11 http://weitz.de/packages.html 11:03:27 stassats`: Perfect, thanks! 11:04:30 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:04:48 Riastradh: I still have admin access to lisppaste but no longer have the time to do much with it, though I'll kick it if I learn it's down 11:06:07 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:46 stassats`, Aankhen``: Yeah that page explains it perfectly under "Packages" heading. 11:07:00 That's the clearest definition I've heard. 11:07:11 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 11:08:29 G'day. 11:08:32 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:08:42 spiaggia: Welcome 11:10:01 Aankhen``: The rest of the page isn't as clear. Seems to me you need to know what a package is. There are no modules or libraries or systems. 11:10:23 Okay, I understand what a package is and what a system is, but still unclear on what a module is. 11:10:30 It's nothing. 11:11:00 That Module paragraph is confusing. 11:11:03 But then what are people referring to when they mention the concept of modules in CL as distinct from packages and systems? 11:11:19 I think it's just free usage of English. 11:11:32 So CL has packages... that's all you need to know ;) 11:11:38 I'm not so sure. From what I've seen people here are very careful about terminology. 11:11:50 Well then I'm just as confused then. 11:11:57 Possibly. ;-) 11:12:48 Aankhen``: I just know that I use packages. That's what I use to creat namespaces. Systems (like ASDF) I use to like I use use a Makefile. 11:12:54 *Aankhen``* nods. 11:13:02 -!- whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa91] has left #lisp 11:13:29 Aankhen``: As for library. I mean I could call a anything a library. 11:13:44 I'm familiar with packages and systems. It's just that I always thought "package" was interchangeable with "module", but apparently that's not so. 11:16:45 Aankhen``: I guess module would be like MYAPP for a MYAPP.LISP file. 11:16:50 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:17:02 Not sure I understand. 11:17:34 I am just looking at the clhs PROVIDE, REQUIRE 11:17:51 Here are a few examples of what I'm talking about 11:17:58 I evalulated *MODULES* in SBCL and got a list of modules. 11:17:58 (Fare) also, READ is not modular (but CL doesn't have a module system anyway) 11:18:10 well, I find the use of packages as modules or semantic namespaces a dubious practice, but since CL doesn't provide anything else ... 11:18:19 drbarret: the package system is not a module system, which has both advantages and disadvantages. In this case, it means you cannot export the blahblah function and not export the (setf blahblah) function. 11:20:23 Aankhen``: I don't know about all of that. I think we both know what packages and systems are. So this module idea to me seems like a deprecated concept where you could call (require 'module-name) and it would find some module-name.lisp file and just consider that a module with it adds to the *MODULES* variable: 11:21:15 no, it won't find module-name.lisp, it will find some way to load that module 11:21:37 Someone who sounds like they know what they are talking about is speaking. Awesome. 11:21:56 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp100.studby.uio.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:22:06 In the case of SBCL doesn't it look at the systems? 11:22:47 well, it does by default, sbcl has variable with functions which are called when you do require 11:23:00 one of that functions loads asdf systems 11:23:42 So this concept of module is like "chunk of code with a name" right? 11:23:47 so, in lispworks and acl they are not loading systems, but some piece additional functionality 11:24:04 Seems pretty clear to me. 11:24:52 as was said in article, there is no clear definition of what modules are 11:25:16 That's exactly as clear as it is to me. 11:25:36 load, for example, loads "chunk of code with a name" of a file too 11:25:46 Perhaps. I was assuming that the people who mentioned modules as distinct from packages did have a clear idea of what they meant by a module, though. 11:26:15 the other way, they are sure what packages are, and that packages are not modules 11:26:33 I guess that could be it. 11:26:46 I get it. It's just a way to talk about named large chunks of code and give them names n stuff. 11:27:14 But a package is something very clear. 11:27:34 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:21 -!- iaindalton [n=iain@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has left #lisp 11:29:48 lisp has some different terminology with other languages 11:30:14 Like predicate and memoize? 11:30:16 hehe 11:30:46 predicate is a logical term, i believe 11:30:56 sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B566.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:31:07 I believe so too 11:31:21 Some language arenas use predicate most use boolean or true-false. 11:31:46 "That returns a boolean" "That's a predicate" 11:33:06 manuel___ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:33:30 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 11:35:29 You could also say that "memoize" is more specific than caching and not always interchangeable but most people don't know what memoize is. (Ruby guys do) 11:36:15 For some reason I can't think of any other Lisp jargon. 11:36:19 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 11:36:35 car, cdr vs first rest. 11:37:12 cons cells 11:37:16 consing 11:37:19 Yeah. 11:38:33 I don't know that "macro" qualifies. It similar in metaphor to C macros. 11:38:43 Hmmm.. I see cons used in prolog litterature quite frequently. 11:39:01 as well as predicate 11:39:14 predicates in prolog? That's crazy :) 11:39:28 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:39:43 schme: Yes. 11:40:04 Do you call variables predicates of that's the purpose they serve? 11:40:28 I can't quite parse that sentence :S 11:40:31 (when you-won-p ...) 11:40:37 younder [i=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 11:40:40 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:40:49 you-won-p is a variable 11:41:17 Yeah, that sentence was jacked. 11:41:27 Oh I see. 11:41:30 prolog variables in lisp are locatives 11:42:02 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:42:30 Sounds a good way to name variables. 11:42:37 If that is their only use I mean :) 11:43:08 i dont think locatives and prolog variables have names 11:43:22 Oh, I was talking about CL. 11:43:42 prolog variables in lisp? 11:43:48 Hmm.. 11:43:48 I don't even know what a locative is. I'm reading definitions for it now. 11:43:54 What a strange thing (: 11:44:17 toddoon [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:14 Okay I think it's making sense. It'd probably help to have ever used Prolog... evar. 11:45:35 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:47 terminology often isn't logical, like variables that can't vary in pure fp 11:46:07 the constant variable 11:46:24 You mean oxymorons like: "static variable" "constant variable" 11:46:37 psyllo: To be honest I don't think I have ever named a variable like you-won-p, or ever used a variable for only that one thing. 11:46:43 They are invariants, no? 11:47:13 invariables? i like just constants 11:47:17 schme: I am always tempted to do that. It often makes the name shorter and clearer. 11:47:26 I'm more thinking along the lines of (when (you-won-p game) ...) :S 11:47:47 I guess. 11:47:56 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 11:48:19 (let ((you-win-p (detect-if-he-won))) ...) 11:48:39 Yes.. It makes total sense, of course. 11:48:40 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #lisp 11:48:57 I've just never really.. been in a situation where I have done something like it. 11:50:01 i would call that a result of some predicate 11:50:11 psyllo: Though I believe the correct code is (let ((you-win-p t #| schme always wins |#)) ...) 11:50:24 -!- dima2001 [n=dima2001@141.19.145.146] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:50:34 schme: Yeah, my bad. 11:50:45 I think I must side with stassats` and name it not -p 11:51:13 schme: Fine, but what then? 11:51:16 *stassats`* actually has variables named with p 11:51:30 Hmmm... 11:51:47 psyllo: That's the annoying part that I can't think of something better :) 11:52:00 ;P 11:52:07 schme: you-win? 11:52:14 stassats`: you could check for that with p-p 11:52:31 madnificent: but then it's more ambiguous. 11:52:39 madnificent: Problem with that is that my mind goes WHY IS THERE SCHEME CODE IN THIS CL CODE? :) 11:52:53 madnificent: Oh, you mean with the '?' yeah I do that too. 11:52:58 psyllo: why is that? every question can be created with a ? behind it... 11:53:27 madnificent: Yeah, I know I just didn't read your sentence correctly... Ha! Which is an argument against it! 11:53:37 madnificent: We use that in Ruby all the time. 11:53:46 schme: though valid for your own appreciation of the code, I don't feel it to be a bad useage 11:53:59 psyllo: which is why I use it :) You have a ruby-background too then? 11:54:09 psyllo: rails, perhaps? 11:54:12 madnificent: Yes 11:54:47 I work for Mozy (EMC company). We have a huge Rails app. 11:55:28 madnificent: On the subject of Ruby... the '?' is usually used in method names, no? 11:55:30 psyllo: are you going to do web development in lisp? (I'm 'building' (more throwing together parts that exist) a webframework, it has some of the foundations of rails, but it is slightly less restrictive) 11:55:37 So, it's the same problem as the -p with CL. 11:56:03 madnificent: That's what I am mainly concerned with right now. Doing web dev in CL! 11:56:04 I haven't really seen much CL code with ? in the symbols up 'till now 11:56:28 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 11:56:33 psyllo: I created a channel (just now) to discuss that #lispweb (remove the noize here) 11:57:04 you can even see "_" in the names 11:58:00 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:43 what i haven't see much is the usage of the unicode symbols 12:02:54 madnificent: pattern-matching code uses variable names with `?' in them sometimes. 12:02:59 ( (a b) ( a b)) 12:03:11 with  => lambda,  => apply 12:03:54 bbe [n=bbe@221.226.135.253] has joined #lisp 12:04:14 stassats`: http://jcsu.jesus.cam.ac.uk/~csr21/hmm.lisp 12:04:17 nunb [n=user@94.161.215.219] has joined #lisp 12:05:35 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:05:50 Xof: nice! 12:06:03 -!- lboard [n=lboard@122.165.28.253] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 12:07:34 -!- ASau` is now known as ASau 12:08:19 Really it's just so one can write omi 12:10:49 glad you like it :-) 12:12:12 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-135-149.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 12:12:59 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:35 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:19:59 KalifG [n=user@32.176.29.171] has joined #lisp 12:20:50 DrTilt [n=browning@75.36.5.64] has joined #lisp 12:22:55 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:29 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:52 trebor-win pasted "get-time-for macro - how to deal with multiple-values-forms?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76235 12:24:09 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 12:24:41 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:26:48 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:28:13 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb34be.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 12:28:26 treborXXX: multiple-value-list and values-list ? 12:28:27 (result (multiple-value-list ,@form)) (values-list (cons (- time-2 time-1)) result) 12:29:40 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.235.76] has joined #lisp 12:29:50 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.235.76] has quit [Client Quit] 12:30:14 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:31:37 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:31:38 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:32:49 splittist & stassats` thank you very much, i was trying to use m-v-l but i didn't check v-l -thanks. 12:33:57 and time-1 = (get-internal-real-time), time-2 (get-internal-real-time) and then (/ (- time-2 time-1) internal-time-units-per-second 1.0) 12:34:36 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 12:35:40 Rainer Joswig seems to be working his way through all lisp questions ever asked on stackoverflow. 12:36:35 he's active on reddit's lisp threads too 12:36:42 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcx043.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:37:02 If the questions on stackoverflow weren't so misdirected, this could actually be fun. 12:37:04 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-153-151.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 12:37:19 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 12:38:56 user___ [n=user@p549241F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:00 stassats`: yes, surely you are right (that was a copy & paste part) ;) 12:39:34 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:39:50 abhinavm [n=abhinav@72.163.183.29] has joined #lisp 12:40:44 This started so well: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/587512/should-i-be-discouraged-by-stackoverflow , then petered out into "but I don't even understand a majority of the questions posed here" 12:44:14 (Whereas the question should have been something like 'Why am I studying this at university if my life is going to be asking 'questions' like "Creating your own table with CommandArgument buttons in ASP.NET MVC" on Stackoverflow'. 12:44:22 Apols for off-topic. Will relent. 12:44:29 nono 12:44:58 -!- KalifG [n=user@32.176.29.171] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:45:02 the counterpart to that is the graduate in Computer Science who cannot articulate the difference between a linked list and an array 12:46:51 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:47:03 Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:47:18 -!- schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:47:27 I blame the Python language (and similar) for that. 12:48:58 jonaskoelker [n=jonas@ip-30-5.bnaa.dk] has joined #lisp 12:49:03 I'm torn between learning cl, plt scheme, elisp and guile. For practical applicability, I think elisp scores highest (maybe followed by guile, it being embedded in lilypond); I hear that elisp is a little old and crufty though. What do y'all think? What are the pros and cons of each? 12:49:18 jonaskoelker: we like common lisp. 12:49:29 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:49:37 which is both a pro and a con 12:49:40 :) 12:49:49 so, why do you like cl? 12:50:07 standardized, fat, complete, traditional. 12:50:25 how's fat != complete? 12:50:40 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 12:50:50 jonaskoelker: it isn't. also, "complete" is a blatant lie. 12:51:32 jonaskoelker: i'd recommend cl and plt scheme from that list 12:51:40 jonaskoelker: i like the practicality of common lisp and its support for multiple programming styles. i also like clos and the mop, and again, the fact that both are (semi) standardized. 12:52:16 stassats`: okay. Why? 12:52:26 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:08 jonaskoelker: there's a recession on.What are you going to do for us if we answer your questions? 12:53:25 jonaskoelker: see what H4ns said 12:53:35 i agree 12:53:59 KalifG [n=user@32.176.29.171] has joined #lisp 12:54:03 splittist: provide pleasurable company and a target for your advocacy needs 12:54:45 jonaskoelker: This is pretty much a CL-only channel. You should not expect any objective comparison here between it and anything else. Though you may get lucky, of course. 12:54:58 okay 12:55:08 jonaskoelker: the former might be nice; the latter I could do without. If you say 'these are things I like/am looking for', you will get good pro&con stuff from many here. (Perhaps too much.) 12:57:24 (and, of course, criticism for liking X or looking for Y. But this is teh intatubes.) 12:58:23 if you want objective comparison of cl, where are you gonna go to? 13:00:11 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 13:00:47 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:15 I think there are very few places that can provide any sort of objective comparison between languages. The Hudak article is the closest one I have seen. 13:03:20 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:03:28 hello fe[nl]ix 13:04:09 the Hudak article? 13:04:20 Hold on... 13:04:23 ciao spiaggia ;) 13:04:29 MinnowTaur [n=chatzill@ip68-109-196-203.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:48 jonaskoelker: http://web.cecs.pdx.edu/~apt/cs457_2005/hudak-jones.pdf 13:06:11 fe[nl]ix: Ciao, Come stai? 13:06:29 -!- user___ [n=user@p549241F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:06:41 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:06:44 bene :) 13:07:01 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslcx043.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:10:56 jonaskoelker: See http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/features.text for a list of features of CL (also http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp for a more complete explanation). Now you can compare to the others. 13:13:59 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp-94-68-84-56.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["reboot"] 13:15:56 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:08 LostMonarch [n=roby@host68-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:17:57 Very few people actually compare, of course, because in general, they have already made up their minds, and were just looking to have their choice approved. Features that already exist in their final choice will be identified as such, and the others will be considered useless. 13:19:16 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C7AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:17 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [] 13:19:50 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:20:59 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-206-96-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 13:21:56 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:20 spiaggia: paul graham has a nice essay on that 13:22:35 the blob thing? 13:22:42 yes 13:24:02 Somewhere I read somewhere (can't remember where) that ads for automobiles have as a target audience those who already bought that brand, because they read the ads to confirm their choice. 13:24:06 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:24:29 jonaskoelker: I'd go with CL. Once you know CL you know emacs lisp (all the notions in emacs lisp are in Common Lisp ; some are missing). Once you know CL, scheme is trivial. You only have to learn continuations. And guile is a kind of scheme. So you will easily know all four by just learning CL. 13:25:16 matimago: that sounds like an interesting argument 13:25:19 when you think about it - python, ruby, C and everything else is in Common Lisp too 13:25:28 so once you know CL ... 13:25:59 once you know CL, you'll have problems loving other programming languages. 13:26:06 borism__ [n=boris@195-50-206-252-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 13:26:21 "if i only had macros" "if i had the mop" "if the editor could indent properly for me" etc. 13:26:23 But at the same time you'll have the tool to circumvent them ! 13:27:37 most importantly: "if i only had a spec" "if i only had a few good books to read about $language" 13:28:08 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-207-233-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:29:41 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:09 jonaskoelker: i am not saying that you'll be using your ability to program in other languages. it might just become a little less pleasant :) 13:31:24 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:33:22 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-206-96-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:33:44 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:48 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:33:53 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:01 toddoon [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:18 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:34:23 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 13:34:42 H4ns: yeah, as it turns out, most books about CL are also good programming books, whereas for other languages there are a lot of bad books out there. 13:35:50 spiaggia: right. javascript is the notorious example, with java being a close follower. i'd also claim that the cl hyperspec is very useable, considering that it is an actual standard and not just an arbitary reference. 13:36:27 books on javascript are generally bad? 13:37:10 rsynnott_: no, but there is a massive number of very bad javascript books. and, in fact, i don't really know a good javascript book except for flanagan's 13:37:53 rsynnott_: it might have changed recently, so i'm open to suggestions. also, some books on other topics cover javascript well, but only kind of in passing. 13:38:51 I've never actually read a javascript book 13:39:08 but I wouldn't have expected them to be noticably worse than other subjects on average 13:39:24 (there certainly are a lot of bad books on Java) 13:40:06 i think the issue with javascript is that a lot of "javascript programmers" are not really programmers, but web designers. 13:40:50 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 13:41:22 i went looking for a javascript book about three months ago, and all I could find appeared to be written for the mentally handicapped. 13:41:37 Fade: flanagan is ok. 13:41:54 i'll keep the author in mind. 13:46:09 No PAIPjs, then... 13:48:50 once I understood that js was basically a scheme, I caught on, but no, I'm not aware of any PAIPs in the js world. :) 13:48:56 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:49:28 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:17 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:48 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:53:07 spiaggia: you should not need to quote t, it is self evaluating ;-) 13:53:10 (can 't remember where) 13:55:38 unless you have it shadowed 13:55:42 -!- free_tinker [n=willijar@eas-nw709pc01.aston.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:56:03 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1ECAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:17 -!- psyllo [n=psyllo@67-42-125-229.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:56:31 segv [n=mb@p4FC1E2D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:23 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:59:38 Fade: PAIP style book for JS? 14:00:12 Does the world need something like that? Do JS coders need that kind of a book, at that sophistication level? 14:00:57 FZ: what is a "js coder"? you make it sound like that would be a somehow retarded person. 14:01:35 there seems to be a great shortage of people who can write javascript well 14:01:45 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:01:53 rsynnott_: probably you're more than right... I wonder its reasons 14:01:58 I recently saw a job advertised writing java, and nothing else, paying 80,000 euro 14:02:02 *javascript 14:02:41 rsynnott_: i have seen several c++ coders recently be interested in coding javascript. these people need good literature. 14:03:05 though as far as I can see the language itself is pretty easy 14:03:07 FZ: one of the reasons is... you guessed it, the lack of good books covering javascript. 14:03:23 certainly for somebody who's previously used python/cl/anything vaguely similar 14:03:35 it's the browser interaction which is unpleasant 14:03:57 rsynnott_: right - except for the object system. 14:04:00 -!- KalifG [n=user@32.176.29.171] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:04:01 I would be more than happy books that describe how to use JS to do natural language processing, symbolic math stuff, logic programming, creating interpreters, graph search and traversal, constraint satisfaction, knowledge represenation, etc. 14:04:10 happy --> happy to see 14:04:37 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:04:53 now that everyone expect Microsoft and Mozilla has fast javascript VMs, I suppose interest in it will grow 14:05:05 Such a book that tackles those issues and target JS coders... a book that sells good number of copies... I'd be really more than happy 14:05:34 (in particular, Apple seem to be pushing it as a viable flash replacement) 14:06:22 maybe the second rise of JS engines, those highly optimized software components... will enable better books by JS people for JS people 14:06:58 when the browsers will be pushed much harder for desktop-style apps 14:07:05 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has joined #lisp 14:08:31 aunwork [n=aunwork@mail.ionicsoft.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:23 given that Microsoft, who still have 80% of the market, are ignoring the whole issue, it'll probably be a while yet 14:13:52 (IE7, running on a modern computer, manages about the same javascript performance as an iphone) 14:14:04 and the iphone is using the previous-gen safari JS engine 14:18:15 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 14:18:35 kjfletch [n=kjfletch@94-170-16-78.cable.ubr13.newc.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:18:57 Opera's new ecmascript engine looks promising, speaking of hwich. 14:19:03 *wgl* wondering if i have the right channel 14:21:29 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:32 gzip4 [n=xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 14:23:42 -!- keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:24:34 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:31:42 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:32:00 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 14:35:00 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:35:04 KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has joined #lisp 14:36:21 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 14:38:57 -!- abhinavm [n=abhinav@72.163.183.29] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:39:14 keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:29 -!- KingThomasV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["I'm off!"] 14:41:40 Spaija [n=Spaija@nat/cisco/x-0c83efd45d40c8c8] has joined #lisp 14:44:24 postamar [n=postamar@bas11-ottawa23-1096658321.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:46:23 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:46:38 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-140-67.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:48:42 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:49:44 Zephtar [i=srusek@63.251.21.82] has joined #lisp 14:50:15 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-135-149.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:52:12 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 14:53:03 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:43 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:46 tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:51 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BB5E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:50 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 14:57:44 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D4D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:50 -!- kjfletch [n=kjfletch@94-170-16-78.cable.ubr13.newc.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:01:54 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:44 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.169.113] has joined #lisp 15:03:46 trebor-dki pasted "not seeing the wood for the trees: concatenate string in lisp? this one works, but i hope/fear/am sure there is a better/easier way to do it - may someone give me a hint?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76239 15:04:46 (format nil "~{~a~^ ~}" strings) 15:04:47 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.169.113] has left #lisp 15:04:49 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:05:37 or (format nil "~{~a~}" strings) if you don't want to separate them 15:05:39 cool, thanks stassats (/me rereading that part of clhs-chapter 22.3) 15:06:01 and if you would use your function, there is 15:06:05 clhs concatenate 15:06:06 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_concat.htm 15:06:39 (reduce (lambda (x y) (concatenate 'string x y)) strings) 15:08:46 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:09:13 elias` [n=me@unaffiliated/elias/x-342423] has joined #lisp 15:09:22 is it better to do the reduce than apply? 15:09:23 oh man, sometimes i wonder what i am doing when i look at the apropos... i surely saw concatenate, but did not think of 'string (only of list, ...) - thank you stassats 15:11:20 durka42: reduce is quadratic, apply isn't guaranteed to work for 50 or more arguments. 15:12:15 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-47-203.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:18 -!- postamar [n=postamar@bas11-ottawa23-1096658321.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:12:19 ok 15:12:23 G'morning all. 15:12:56 hello nyef 15:13:35 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:59 ... Did I miss the SBCL code freeze announcement at some point, or is it the day before the end of the month and we're still not in freeze? 15:18:12 willb [n=wibenton@wireless108.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:19:18 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [] 15:24:32 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 15:24:46 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 15:25:22 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:25:37 -!- FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:30:25 wusr [n=wusr@c-0f5fe353.732-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:32:14 -!- bbe [n=bbe@221.226.135.253] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:33:07 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:51 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:36:21 nyef: sbcl in not updating shocker? 15:37:51 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@XPLR-TS-10-VAN-67-201-133-74.barrettxplore.com] has joined #lisp 15:38:55 reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:41:02 -!- jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:41:17 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-3-178.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:41:58 abhinavm [n=abhinav@nat/cisco/x-778a51b8d8110bc7] has joined #lisp 15:42:51 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 15:43:39 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-137-206.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:44:23 manuel__ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:47:23 mjf [n=mjf@r6y212.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 15:47:54 ``Erik_ [n=erik@ftp.brlcad.org] has joined #lisp 15:48:49 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-137-206.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 15:48:49 -!- manic12__ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:49:14 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-153-151.netcologne.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:49:14 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:50:26 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:53:59 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-137-206.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:58:50 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:00:32 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:40 kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has joined #lisp 16:03:26 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:04:02 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 16:04:09 qbg [n=qbg@apollo.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 16:04:11 -!- qbg [n=qbg@apollo.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:06:00 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:07:31 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:08:22 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:11 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:02 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 16:17:15 tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:31 pokey19 [n=dmg@DEBC4.VPN.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 16:19:34 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:19 -!- hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 16:23:18 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:25:52 -!- abhinavm [n=abhinav@nat/cisco/x-778a51b8d8110bc7] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:27:13 stassats: I hope I just fixed the autodoc bug you were talking of yesterday. 16:28:10 tcr: you were looking for me yesterday 16:29:16 mega1: I can reproduce the corruption thingie 16:29:53 tcr: and have you also found what changed on your system? slime/sbcl/some-lib? 16:31:45 mega1: It's when I try to start a slime version from 2008-12-29. 16:33:10 mega1: I now pulled from sbcl.git and I see 4 additions to gc.c. 16:33:21 mega1: How should I build this sbcl to aid debugging? 16:33:33 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:34:20 tcr: by pasting the recursive error first 16:36:03 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.171.120] has quit ["GoDaddy's claim isn't just based on comparing apples to oranges; it's multiplying oranges by apples, dividing by peach and] 16:36:28 these good instructions? http://www.lothlorien.com/kf6gpe/?p=24 16:37:07 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 16:37:07 -!- splittist [n=splittis@18-0.2-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:37:26 paddy_mullen [n=patrickm@c-68-44-45-244.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:09 tcr pasted "for mega1" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76243 16:38:30 mega1: See there. At some point, I pressed C-c C-c 16:38:51 tcr: I saw this before. 16:39:46 tcr annotated #76243 "sldb buffer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76243#1 16:40:40 http://paste.lisp.org/display/72603 16:41:36 that coincidences with my slime version 16:42:26 -!- Spaija [n=Spaija@nat/cisco/x-0c83efd45d40c8c8] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:42:34 mega1: Do a cvs update -C -dP -D 2008-12-29, and try if the problem occurs for you, too. I'm on linux-x86-32 16:42:54 tcr: I reported this issue on slime-devel 16:43:23 Is it in the bug tracker? 16:43:25 http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/slime-devel/2009-January/015873.html 16:43:33 it's fixed according to Helmut 16:44:07 I'm not sure it's reasonable for sbcl to die like that :) 16:44:56 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA2B2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:45:12 yasuto [n=yasuto@pon100-117.kcn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:45:35 tcr: well if you mess it up enough that the debugger gets into recursive errors there is little it can do 16:46:15 *** redo from start? 16:47:22 http://paste.lisp.org/display/76244 <-- why does this macro not work? 16:48:03 tcr: yeah, autodoc seems to work ok now 16:48:28 -!- yasuto [n=yasuto@pon100-117.kcn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:48:31 stassats: There's a bug, if you place point on the make-instance in (make-instance 'type-error 16:48:45 There's still a bug. I know I introduced that behaviour, I just don't know why I did 16:48:51 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:42 I can't decide whether I like it or not :) 16:49:48 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:50:01 -!- younder [i=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:51:11 Hello. Finally i think i have lisp working. Ran a demo test program and it worked like the installation instructions said it should. :) 16:51:17 cool 16:51:20 now i just want to put some code in a file and run it on emacs 16:51:26 how do i do that? 16:51:49 When you specify an initform and an accessor for a class slot, does the slot get initialized via the accessor or via slot-value when you make-instance? 16:52:00 i ran the demo using (Clim-demo::run-test 'clim-demo::demodemo) 16:52:11 i want to make my own program and run it that way. What are the syntacs? 16:52:33 tcr: if you want to see original arglist, perhaps 16:52:49 pokey19: Maybe look at the clim-demo and see how that is done. 16:52:49 ... initarg, not initform... Well, either, really. 16:52:55 pokey19: have you installed slime ? 16:53:22 slash_: A macro is a function which takes source code and is supposed to return source-code. The (one) return value is taken as expansion which is then processed further. 16:53:26 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:33 yeah i have slime. wusr: i dont know where the demo is. I dont think the file is actually named that... ? 16:53:57 (i searched and couldn't find it, i thought climdemo must be some alias for the program or something) 16:54:10 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C7AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:54:14 slash_: Your macro's return value is (WRITE-LINE "" fstream) 16:54:22 just set everything up according to these instructons: http://www.lothlorien.com/kf6gpe/?p=24 16:54:22 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C7AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:18 tcr: and enriched arglist for apply doesn't work on #'function 16:55:20 tcr: thank you, that helps a lot 16:56:19 pokey19: you want to save an image to run from the command line ? 16:56:50 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:56:55 tcr: and is there any reason why there is no enriched arglist for funcall? 16:57:11 stassats: Did apply on #'foo work before? 16:57:19 nope 16:57:24 afair 16:57:31 i was thinking CL-USER: (run-command file-tag) ...in emacs ....but im not too sure how this works, or if that is what i should be doing... 16:57:37 stassats: No there isn't, except that why use (funcall 'foo ...) rather than (foo ...)? 16:57:52 but all i want is a location i can save code in, then run that code in emacs 16:58:23 from looking at the example its unclear to me how the syntax works - i dont know what any of the words represent 16:58:47 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@74.125.59.1] has joined #lisp 17:00:06 tcr: i see, didn't think about it 17:01:35 I'll make apply #'foo work later 17:02:26 I'll also apply the patches on 1st january. (The issue of the second was fixed a few days ago.) 17:02:39 the patches you sent on 1st january 17:03:15 (Actually it was sent by fe[nl]ix. Urghs.) 17:03:42 i have a file hello.lisp containing; (print "hello world") 17:03:42 how do i load this into slime so i see it evaluated in emacs? 17:03:43 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:47 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:04:16 C-c C-l 17:04:52 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:04:55 pokey19: If you are not familiar with how lisp syntax and things work there are excellent books for this. 17:04:58 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 17:06:54 FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has joined #lisp 17:07:38 pokey19: for instance, you may open that file in emacs, then use C-c C-b to evaluate the whole file 17:08:18 pokey19: but usually it's better if you at least create a package for your own functions 17:08:24 fe[nl]ix: thanks, i got the hello world to work. now i'll mess around with some making some functions 17:08:32 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:08:45 hnr [n=henry@62.49.66.13] has joined #lisp 17:08:52 you mean a dedicated file for functions i make? 17:09:06 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:23 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:09:44 pokey19: yes 17:10:37 ok. I have a free lisp book. Im going to start doing exercises and making my functions. Thanks every one for all the help, this was so confusing for me i wouldn't have been able to get this set up without it (began this 3 days ago :P ) 17:11:47 -!- dfox [n=dfox@rb5cm232.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:01 pokey19: You might want to look at the book practical common lisp. And best of luck with things. 17:12:38 yes. That is the book i am using. :) 17:12:39 pokey19: for something a little more complex, there's http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html?thread=221432 17:12:46 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.201.112] has joined #lisp 17:13:48 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 17:14:02 -!- HimitsuNaiyou [n=MuneNoKa@par0978.urh.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:41 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:34 HimitsuNaiyou [n=MuneNoKa@mobile168-180.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 17:18:12 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:18:36 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:48 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:19:35 dfox [n=dfox@r11jn246.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 17:22:24 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y212.net.upc.cz] has quit ["Changing server"] 17:24:03 mjf [n=mjf@r6y212.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 17:28:22 uhhh... is there a particular reason why fancy scheme-style macros can't be implemented on top of existing CL by wrapping defmacro? 17:29:10 hygienic? 17:29:29 hygienic + define-syntax syntax 17:29:43 it's been done before I believe 17:30:45 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Success] 17:30:56 http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dorai/mbe/mbe-lsp.html looks like it 17:31:55 interesting, thank you. I was surprised that with all the hygienic macro talk I've heard, there wasn't something similar for CL already. 17:32:50 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:08 stassats: not hygienic 17:33:26 nope 17:33:51 Is there a (standard) way to extract the bound variable names from a function parameter/lambda list? 17:34:37 Modius: why do you need this? 17:36:18 Modius: lambda list frobbing is tedious 17:37:46 More specifically: Some function that if given (a b &optional c (d e f)) would return (a b c d f) 17:38:24 There is in SWANK 17:40:40 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:43:21 -!- eslick [n=eslick@dhcp-23-106.media.mit.edu] has quit ["Reverting to analog"] 17:44:25 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:51 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:25 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:45:45 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:09 -!- deliana [n=deliana@147.210.246.189] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:47:16 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:22 -!- hnr [n=henry@62.49.66.13] has quit [] 17:47:24 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:48:06 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:48:12 *sykopomp* recalls vyzo's lisp talk, his 1-line-to-2-page macroexpansions, and the 'defmeta' metamacro. 17:48:15 *sykopomp* shudders. 17:49:04 lol 17:49:14 ianmcorvidae: hey! 17:49:19 hello 17:49:53 ianmcorvidae: I have the feeling we won't be able to get together tomorrow 17:50:01 you have something up? 17:50:13 ianmcorvidae: yeah, the flu 17:50:18 ... oh yeah, that 17:50:19 heh 17:50:37 I was also considering working at saga 17:50:44 sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B566.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:50:45 but somehow I feel that might be irresponsible. 17:50:52 that does make things easier, as when I stopped into ASH it was lunchtime so I couldn't ask anyone 17:50:57 heh, it might be 17:51:17 maybe I'll try and see if I can swap out of working the line. Working elsewhere wouldn't be that big a deal. 17:51:38 but coughing on the food that several hundred students will eat is probably pretty bad. 17:51:49 yeah, probably 17:52:01 I mean, half the school's sick already, but why hit the other half? :P 17:52:23 I don't have a sub for the 7th yet :( 17:52:31 oh noes :( 17:52:46 :( 17:52:56 oh, we're still in the channel 17:53:13 anyways, I might feel a bit better tomorrow, and it's not like blabbing about lisp is an exhausting endeavor 17:53:19 yeah; nobody else is talking so I didn't think it would be too problematic 17:53:19 have you heard back from the other people yet? 17:53:21 haha yeah 17:53:33 I haven't, no; I haven't sent an email out yet because I wanted to know about the ASH lab first 17:53:37 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B566.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:53:54 ah, alright. I guess that means no meeting tomorrow anyways. 17:54:06 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y212.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 17:54:09 all the better for sitting on my ass and hacking all day. 17:54:14 akelacz [n=user@r9fb182.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 17:54:17 well, I'll go check in another few minutes when lunch is over, but that does seem likely 17:54:25 given how long it takes for people to respond to emails 17:55:14 mjf [n=mjf@r6y212.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 17:56:35 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 17:56:57 abhinav [n=abhinav@nat/cisco/x-abb593c567ebfb42] has joined #lisp 17:57:37 -!- abhinav is now known as abhinavm 18:00:41 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:03:18 xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:21 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:03:26 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:05:23 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:48 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:07:04 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 18:08:38 -!- HimitsuNaiyou [n=MuneNoKa@mobile168-180.near.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:21 milanj [n=milan@93.86.189.91] has joined #lisp 18:11:00 ianmcorvidae: this whole 'independent study' thing seems more like 'let's slack off and act like we deserve credit' than anything else. 18:11:29 -!- abhinavm [n=abhinav@nat/cisco/x-abb593c567ebfb42] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:11:47 oh hah no 18:12:02 certainly gives that impression ;) 18:12:02 this thing we're organizing isn't an independent study, it's just some folks getting together who want to learn 18:12:08 oh okay 18:12:09 good 18:12:14 I'm doing an independent study, but none of the others are :) 18:12:34 kk :P 18:12:40 admittedly I need to work on said independent study, but that's not the point here XD 18:13:02 hey, do you want to try on a relatively small project? I have an idea :) 18:13:19 well, possibly 18:13:21 what's the idea? 18:13:23 and there's already lots of example code in other languages written for it, so it might let you focus more on CL 18:13:36 I found this http://www.mike-austin.com/inertia/ 18:14:01 it's a pretty neat little toy, implemented in about 1200 lines of ruby, although there's also Io, Dylan, and C++ versions. 18:14:26 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:32 line count should be in the same ballpark with lisp, I think. 18:14:57 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:14:59 it uses opengl and sdl, both of which have fairly nice bindings in lisp. 18:15:12 not to be dense, but what *is* it? 18:15:27 -!- KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:15:35 it's an interface environment. You've never seen Squeak? 18:15:39 nope 18:16:08 *ianmcorvidae* follows links 18:16:18 it's sort of an IDE 18:16:52 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:16:56 ah, hmm 18:16:59 it's a fancy GUI for coding an interface up, inspecting all the objects, altering them on the fly, etc 18:17:14 well 18:17:21 not something I would *use*, but it might be fun to program 18:17:21 opening code files and altering those, and so on. The videos might give you a better idea of what's going on. 18:17:40 HimitsuNaiyou [n=MuneNoKa@mobile210-152.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 18:17:46 it seems like a fun toy to me. 18:17:46 sykopomp: you cheap bastard! outsourcing your idea, are you?! 18:18:11 ianmcorvidae: I'd find it cool to have too, so it would probably be used. 18:18:12 he does that :P 18:18:18 it's true 18:18:24 although my idea is to do it for sheeple 18:18:39 and I assumed ianmcorvidae would be doing it with CLOS, which is a separate thing. 18:20:15 manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:28 sykopomp: perhaps it'd be easier for him to do it for sheeple, as you have an idea (and could support him). 18:20:49 except that sheeple is 0.2, and clos is pretty much stable 18:20:49 madnificent: he wants to learn standard CL, and I don't want to come off as offloading my work onto others 18:20:54 Allso, couldn't it be possible to define an abstract interface to work with, so that both systems can be implemented by only changing a part of the application 18:21:00 ianmcorvidae: 0.3! Released yesterday! 18:21:03 point taken 18:21:06 oh, okay :P 18:21:20 not to mention, I'm thinking of not bothering with writing an inertia variant and just implementing my sheep inspector right in emacs 18:21:49 which might be a nice opportunity to learn elisp scripting.... 18:21:50 sykopomp: ;_; (why?) 18:21:54 oh 18:22:42 madnificent: I'd have all of slime to back me up that way, and I don't really care about the pretty graphics as much as I care about functionality. 18:22:59 I *do* think it looks like a fairly easy project to take on, hence the suggestion :P 18:23:01 sykopomp: but... but .... but 18:23:21 madnificent: I have too much on my hands >_> 18:23:31 ianmcorvidae: how many hours are you willing to spend and what knowledge do you have (besides little lisp) 18:23:42 well, that's sort of the issue 18:24:02 what is sheeple? 18:24:09 I'm fairly limited in both time and knowledge. 18:24:09 sykopomp: build time machine is the last note on my todo-list. I'm hoping to see it magically disappear (wolud be a good hint) 18:24:20 Fade: http://cliki.net/sheeple 18:24:38 ah, cool. 18:24:39 dima2001 [n=dima2001@MOTx6pt3.swm.uni-mannheim.de] has joined #lisp 18:24:47 minion: sheeple? 18:24:49 sheeple: Sheeple is a Dynamic, CLOS-like Prototype-based Object-Oriented Programming Framework (or "POOP Framework"). http://www.cliki.net/sheeple 18:24:56 oh hey, minion knows about it. 18:24:58 ianmcorvidae: how many hours do you think you could spend on it? have you ever used opengl? do you know any other object systems? (did they have multiple inheritance or other fancy stuff) 18:25:04 minion knows about every page on cliki. 18:25:06 sykopomp: minion knows about cliki 18:25:07 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:20 yeah, I should've known. 18:25:49 ... and you're lucky that that worked, as I messed it up for a few minutes by accident. 18:26:23 heh 18:26:32 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 18:26:58 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:26:59 madnificent: not really sure in terms of time, but I could probably find a few hours to work on it per week. No opengl experience, no in-depth knowledge of other object systems. 18:27:44 so... yeah. It's iffy at best, but a start on it might be a reasonable learning experience 18:27:51 ianmcorvidae: the point here is that you should be able to figure out what the opengl and sdl stuff is supposed to be just by looking at the (fairly compact) ruby code. 18:28:02 yeah, that's what I'd figured 18:28:22 stassats`: Still here? 18:28:29 but I'll keep an eye out for other potential things you might want to do, so don't worry about it 18:28:46 younder [i=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 18:29:32 the biggest problem is time, anyway; I can learn things like opengl and CLOS given sufficient time 18:29:39 ianmcorvidae: go for it, perhaps read the first few pages of the opengl red book (just know opengl works like a state machine (and what that vaguely means)). Questions on projects can be asked here (iff you're willing to accept the -sometimes unfriendly- answers). 18:29:44 time. 18:29:48 tcr: yes 18:29:52 hacking starts... 18:29:59 I'm familiar with the channel ethos, yeah :) 18:30:04 now! M-x slime now! 18:30:25 stassats`: On 2008-08-01 you sent a patch to add hyperspec-lookup for reader macros 18:30:28 in my 25 minutes before class :P 18:30:34 yes 18:30:47 tcr: yes, that i remember 18:30:53 ianmcorvidae: research time! 18:31:14 stassats`: You modify a function `reader-macro-at-point' but that doesn't seem to exist 18:31:18 -!- clop [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:31:35 Puppster [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:40 the dylan port of that system would probably be a better seed 18:31:50 anyways, I can definitely see a relative newbie having a fairly developed, if not finished, version of inertia finished by the time the semester ends, it's definitely realistic. 18:32:01 Fade: this is very true 18:32:12 Dylan: CLOS without the lisp. 18:32:21 tcr: afair, it's a new function 18:32:43 -!- akelacz [n=user@r9fb182.net.upc.cz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:32:46 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslc-082-082-054-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:50 Ah right, I cannot read that kind of .diff 18:33:03 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 18:34:14 bad_alloc [n=marvin@HSI-KBW-091-089-218-154.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 18:34:47 hi 18:35:01 bad_alloc: hello 18:36:00 I#M new to lisp and currently on the lookout for a good ide. I've tried out emacs but i don't like it. which other ides could you recommend? 18:36:11 emacs+slime 18:36:29 http://phil.nullable.eu/ For the stubborn 18:36:53 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb34be.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 18:37:02 bad_alloc: if you're an Eclipse junkie, there is also CUSP, which is apparently pretty nice. 18:37:31 thanky, i'll try it out right away 18:37:43 bad_alloc: and there is a connection to vim 18:38:03 madnificent: last I checked, it was unusable. 18:38:12 bad_alloc: while you're at it -- what didn't you like about slime? 18:39:18 sykopomp: don't know, i just can't get familiar with it 18:39:31 sykopomp: it's specially to show that emacs is superior 18:39:54 stassats`: sabotage, eh? 18:42:26 bad_alloc: in the end, i found it was easier for me to get comfortable in emacs than it was for lisp to get comfortable anywhere else. Times have changed though :) 18:42:48 now i'm a convert, and use emacs to interface with just about everything. 18:43:47 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:43:52 drewc: It is/was the same for me. 18:44:03 drewc: i blame my problems with emacs on my windows past. just not used to shells etc. yet. 18:44:19 bad_alloc: having said that, a good REPL is probably more important then the editor, so you might want to consider using just the slime REPL and maybe CUA mode 18:44:19 shells? 18:44:40 drewc: You can use a gui-version of emacs. 18:45:08 bad_alloc: the emacs for windows is quite a nice emacs. 18:45:27 The-Kenny: assuming that was for bad_alloc? :) 18:45:33 windows is not so nice driver for emacs 18:45:38 drewc: don't missunderstand me, i use ubuntu now 18:45:38 drewc: Yes, sorry. 18:46:06 bad_alloc: I use a Gtk-Version of Emacs on Ubuntu. And Aquamacs on OSX. Works very well. 18:46:14 bad_alloc: oh! Well then you should have a nice gtk version of emacs available! 18:46:40 the difference between emacs in a terminal and emacs in a gtk frame is extremely minimal. 18:47:12 Fade: the menu and scrollbars are a big thing to some people 18:47:13 bad_alloc: you're using emacs in a terminal?.... 18:47:15 btw, isn't there a difference between emacs lisp and common lisp? 18:47:27 agreed, the menus are very important for actually -learning- emacs. 18:47:27 bad_alloc: yes, they are different lisps 18:47:34 but if you have some windows editor control key shortcuts embedded in your hands, emacs is going to feel very weird. ;) 18:47:47 bad_alloc: however, SLIME is a bridge that allows emacs to talk to other lisps. 18:47:56 Fade: CUA mode 18:48:00 drewc: so it supports cl? 18:48:26 oh, weird. 18:48:33 i wasn't even aware of cua mode. 18:48:46 (nasty) 18:48:47 bad_alloc: yes, it provides a CL repl, and CL modes for emacs that allow you to interact with the running lisp. very cool. 18:48:48 back in the emacs conquest days, i switched off menus to learn key-bindings faster 18:48:52 bad_alloc: SLIME acts like a bridge. It connects to a common lisp instance, but the interface is written in elisp (since it's for emacs) 18:49:37 i think i'll try that. thanks for the help guys. 18:49:40 -!- bad_alloc [n=marvin@HSI-KBW-091-089-218-154.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit ["You shoot yourself in somebody else's foot."] 18:49:52 i'm particularly fond of the <--tramp--> setup. 18:50:05 good job guys! :) 18:50:14 heh 18:50:57 Go Team #lisp! \o/ 18:51:12 the #emacs guys owe us one 18:51:26 is that lisp in a box project still active? 18:51:39 Fade: i don't think it's all that active 18:51:41 -!- xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [] 18:51:59 that's a useful resource for newbs like that. 18:52:09 at least notionally. 18:52:12 We should have said something about org-mode. That's an awesome feature of emacs too. 18:52:52 Fade: indeed. I'm sure volunteers would be welcome ;) 18:53:01 hah 18:53:08 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.171.120] has joined #lisp 18:54:36 -!- Zephtar [i=srusek@63.251.21.82] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:54:39 is franz a public company? 18:54:55 I don't know, but their lates pricing is very interesting :) 18:55:05 they told me that I can lease their software for 2 years 18:55:12 lease? 18:55:14 lol 18:55:16 e.g. 1500$ for Enterprise Edition for 2 years 18:55:18 yes :) 18:55:22 Zephtar [n=srusek@d57-112.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:55:25 that is funny. 18:55:32 if I want a permanent license that is 4200$ 18:55:53 do they charge for each executable system you ship? 18:56:03 or can you do whatever after you pay 4200 bucks? 18:56:07 well I asked for Enterprise Edition because I wondered what they have done for Amazon EC2 functionality which they announced 18:56:17 Fade: as far as I know you can do whatever you want 18:56:24 once you pay the fixed amount of money 18:56:34 either leased or permanent license 18:56:55 so that's for one seat? 18:57:07 Really? Surely that's per-CPU or per-developer or something. 18:57:35 *rsynnott_* finds this sort of convoluted pricing system off-putting 18:57:37 it'd be very unusual to sell software for a fixed price "you can do anything you want" license. 18:57:40 -!- rsynnott_ is now known as rsynnott 18:57:48 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:03 What I meant was they don't charge for the number of executables produced 18:58:03 a 4200 dollar license for a development environment is offputting. 18:58:17 as far as I could understand 18:58:23 although I guess if you're working on a large commercial project, it isn't that much in the overhead dept. 18:58:37 it's more than the computer. :p 18:58:40 they even provided me trial license for enterprise edition 18:58:44 but I didn't have time 18:58:48 <``Erik_> then you're not using the right computer :D 18:58:48 and it expired 18:58:58 and when I said, I want to prolong it to play with EC2 stuff 18:59:01 ah, back in the day, people like borland charged that sort of thing for dodgy pascal compilers 18:59:03 they said NO! :) 18:59:25 FZ: what does their EC2 stuff do? 18:59:28 just API access? 18:59:42 eventually projects like clozure and sbcl are going to eat franz's lunch. 18:59:52 rsynnott: http://www.franz.com/support/documentation/current/doc/ec2.htm 19:00:00 well, they have a lot more auxilliary APIs already built 19:00:08 if you're into those things, it might be useful for you 19:00:11 *rsynnott* suspects that franz makes most of their money off consulting and such 19:00:11 As far as I can see, an API 19:00:13 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 19:00:17 if you just want "a lisp", probably not so much. 19:00:57 I don't think anyone makes real money selling dev environments these days 19:01:05 at least they provide GRUFF free of charge :) so that I can play with it 19:01:06 MS still charges a lot for theirs.. 19:01:28 foom: but apparently they make very little money that way 19:01:49 i think microsoft makes quite a lot selling their Visual* spooj. 19:01:50 they probably charge just enough to make people feel that it is valuable 19:01:50 I find it amusing that the really expensive part is their really crappy version control system 19:02:10 ooh, there's a 'setq' in that ec2 api example; tsk 19:02:24 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@74.125.59.1] has quit [] 19:02:28 you can get the basic devtools pretty cheap, but if you want to use one of the worst VCSes in existence you need to pay the big bucks. :) 19:03:00 -!- Puppster [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:03:22 though really I can see people paying for allegro for a few reasons 19:03:35 (especially if for some reason you had to use SOAP) 19:03:37 I have always used the free express edition 19:03:44 (I mean when I didn't use SBCL) 19:03:45 shipping standalone execs to windows 19:03:52 nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:00 seems to be their primary feature. 19:04:11 lispworks does that, too, though 19:04:11 <``Erik_> in a commercial setting, it's a lot easier to make mgmt shell out for expensive dev software than cheap or (oh dear) permitting free stuff :/ 19:04:13 for cheaper 19:04:36 but allegro seems to have a lot of support for horrible enterprisey things like SOAP 19:04:38 clozure seems to as well. 19:04:57 idk now enterprisey SOAP is, but it is horrible. 19:05:12 it's kind of like a fungus that grows on java systems. 19:05:20 I think it's funny when people use "enterprise" as if it's a good quality for something to have. :) 19:05:32 things can be very funny with Allegro, for example they seem to have a nice MySQL interface but... that's in the enterprise edition, too... so I embrace cl-sql :) 19:05:42 and the job is done, this way or the other 19:05:47 SOAP is extremely enterprisey :) 19:06:28 they may be considered enterprise for other reasons, too, such as pushing Java examples for their AllegroServer 19:06:31 oops 19:06:32 foom: Well, for some things, "enterprise" means "can handle hundreds of thousands or more transactions per day". 19:06:41 I meant... the RDF stuff 19:06:45 semantic stuff 19:06:51 *FZ* slaps himself 19:06:55 I've only done one soap project, and it was a requirement because that's the only way the client's bespoke enterprise java clusterfuck could interact with the outside world. 19:06:56 SOAP get's really enterprisey when people take a Java method and then use an automatic generator to create lovecraftian XML that encapsulates all the datastructures and calls the method 19:07:29 I mean AllegroGraph 19:07:30 IME "enterprise" means "hard to use. requires an entire enterprise to support it." :) 19:07:50 I remember that Message instead of RPC format was quite simple and usable. But it didn't have provisions to make it an RPC :> 19:07:59 foom: for SOAP, two enterprises! Jointly developed by IBM and Microsoft. Y'know, like OS/2 19:08:13 p_l: ah, yes, you have to use the SOAPAction header 19:08:16 OS/2 was nice, thankyouverymuch 19:08:23 which isn't actually defined anywhere, but generally works 19:09:08 rsynnott: I remember reading through this big fat book on Java & SOAP and message model basically gave you the envelope and "put your xml here" part :) 19:09:09 OS/2 was nice compared to windows, but looked like a stonking morass of hogsblood compared to amigados or genera. ;) 19:09:36 Fade: You meant AmigaOS, I think :P 19:09:46 the funny thing with AllegroGraph is that I had a Java programmer who played with it (using Java functions to call AllegroGraph as a server) then when he saw me using this lisp product from within lisp... he said that whatever I was doing seemed much practical and less verbose :) 19:10:09 Fade: And Genera wasn't running on easily available hw (well, at least they later ported it to Alpha) 19:10:18 well, yes 19:10:32 FZ: well, it's Java. Everything's less verbose than Java 19:10:41 and I was surprised to see that there were lots of Java documentation that described how to connect to allegrograph, do sparql queries, etc. 19:10:41 but you could get genera on a macivory by the time os/2 3.0 was released. 19:10:56 -!- HimitsuNaiyou [n=MuneNoKa@mobile210-152.near.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:11:01 Fade: What was the price combination? :) 19:11:23 no idea. ;) 19:11:45 the nubus board was probably several orders of magnitude more expensive than the mac that hosted it. 19:11:47 HimitsuNaiyou [n=MuneNoKa@mobile210-152.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 19:12:07 Also, it couldn't run DOS/Win3.11 apps. And I'm pretty sure a lot of the stuff that I had seen used during that time didn't run on Macs either :) 19:12:21 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-11ae3b0abef77077] has joined #lisp 19:16:12 You could get a 386 on a nubus card for exactly that, though! 19:16:20 Or was it a 486 in later models? 19:16:54 i had a card like that for my amiga3000 19:17:10 I'm not sure if per nubus, but I remember seeing up to the 5x86-line. 19:17:41 rsynnott: actually, COBOL is still much more verbose than Java ;-) 19:17:48 It came with one particular model of mac, but worked in many more if you had one. 19:18:15 they were available as a third-party thing, as well 19:18:19 ... Might have been in the PDS slot of a slim-line mac, though, not a nubus card. I forget. 19:18:20 and yep, mostly nubus 19:18:32 *p_l* is pretty sure that the price of Mac, A/UX, PC-emu card and MacIvory + Genera licence would be probably worthy a UNIX workstation 19:18:37 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:40 (by the time of the pci macs, there were x86 emulators which kinda-sorta worked) 19:18:55 p_l: much more, probably 19:19:04 the macivory thing was very expensive 19:19:27 vmware++ 19:19:38 It'd be cool to have an x86 board, a macivory and a microexplorer all running in the same box. 19:19:43 rsynnott: I wonder if for the price of such combination, an Alpha + Tru64 + OpenGenera wouldn't be cheaper and faster :) 19:20:04 they weren't actually contemporary, were they? 19:20:23 p_l: You know there's an alpha emulator out there that supposedly can boot tru64, right? 19:20:29 when was genera ported to the alpha? dec released the 21064 in '91 or so. 19:20:41 (At least, I think it boots tru64. Might not...) 19:20:55 nyef: if you mean es40, it's still fairly incomplete. I mean, I can't get my VMSCluster to work 19:21:06 i have a little pizzabox alpha with a 21164 in it that will boot tru64. 19:21:08 Yeah, that's probably the one I'm thinking of. 19:21:30 If you are on windows, you can get freeware Personal Alpha or one of the commercial CHARON-AXP versions 19:21:51 when I was in college, the student computer science society had a huge alpha, cast off by the CS dept 19:21:55 impressive thing 19:22:02 rsynnott: What year? 19:22:06 (also, a HPUX, which was just weird) 19:22:07 i love the alpha architecture. 19:22:09 p_l: the alpha? 19:22:15 It might be cool to write an alpha emulator in lisp. 19:22:21 rsynnott: yes. And Alpha's never ran HP-UX :) 19:22:23 i'd love a 32processor wildfire box. :) 19:22:30 sorry, I mean a HPPA 19:22:39 (running HPUX) 19:22:50 guh. parisc/hpux 19:23:09 We have some HP Visualize workstations here in abdn 19:23:16 (there was also a VAX avaialable, but we didn't have the space for it) 19:23:50 *p_l* has an emulated vax. Works faster than emulated es40 19:24:10 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:24:33 and doesn't crash in TCPIP$CONFIG.COM ¬_¬ 19:24:35 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E562.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:26:56 anyway, does OpenGenera run on 21064? 19:27:18 p_l: yes 19:27:46 p_l: it will not be very fast. any amd64/emt64 cpu will be substantially faster. 19:28:11 the 21064 was remarkably starved of cash. 19:28:13 H4ns: Except I might get an AlphaServer 1000A for shipping costs :) 19:28:14 er, cache. 19:28:16 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fecade00-157.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:28:19 <- drainbammage. 19:28:35 p_l: if you can bear the noise :) 19:28:50 H4ns: I'll replace the fans with something quieter :P 19:28:54 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.171.120] has quit [" I wonder how many hours IE has cost webdevelopers worldwide :I lots. But Ie is also what keeps webdevs in] 19:29:05 p_l: but you probably already have an amd64/emt64 19:29:15 assuming I have enough money for shipping. Though likely I'll put it in a rack 19:29:22 p_l: the fans will be more expensive than an amd64/amt64 19:29:38 H4ns: Who said I'm going to order original fans? :) 19:29:38 p_l: but certainly, the as1000a has a better geekness rating. 19:30:09 H4ns: And unlike amd64, doesn't protest too much when I load VMS8.3 :P 19:30:25 fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6C4B7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:37 manuel__ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:30:56 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.201.112] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:31:00 it might also not crash when I try to setup hostname, unlike es40.org 19:31:01 p_l: that is certainly true 19:31:59 If I had ~£850, I'd buy myself an Itanic, probably 19:32:28 someone near my place is selling a rx2600 19:32:43 spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 19:32:49 Intel just refuses to let the damn thing die 19:33:11 p_l: i've got an offer for a quad itanium2 with 16 gb sdram for eur 579 in the morning. i was tempted. 19:33:19 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:33:24 H4ns: ... how much for shipping? 19:33:38 (to Scotland) 19:33:50 The real question is, if either of you get itanics, who's going to do the SBCL port? :-P 19:33:57 p_l: http://shop.itsco.de/shop/default.aspx?TY=item&ST=1&IT=1857 19:34:13 nyef: you are evil 19:34:30 Thank you. 19:34:32 nyef: Weren't you dabbling a little with Windows port of SBCL? 19:34:36 nyef: is this on the basis that Intel at some point manages to sell more than about ten of them? 19:34:42 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:34:50 the alpha port is more important than the itanic port. 19:34:56 Itanium is apparently particularly difficult to write efficient compilers for 19:34:56 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:01 rsynnott: HP sells some, mostly thanks to NSK and VMS (HP-UX is sinking) 19:35:13 Fade: how is alpha "important"? 19:35:15 Fade: Yeah, but the alpha port exists. 19:35:20 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:35:31 it's important 'cause I have a lot of it. ;) 19:35:49 It's also the only port with a different lisp object size from its SAP size. 19:35:55 and I don't know anybody who actually uses itanium systems. 19:35:57 uh, well, if there was a sbcl port to openvms, i'd want it, too 19:36:19 nyef: You see, in my order of importance on IA-64 I've got 1) VMS 2) Windows 3) Linux/BSD 19:36:28 SBCL on OpenVMS, huh? 19:36:29 nyef: mips64 isn't also like that? 19:36:37 nyef: that'd be rocks 19:36:45 Fade: Not so as I've noticed... Is there even a mips64 SBCL port? 19:36:58 i thought there was... 19:36:58 nyef: I think SBCLs preallocation and VMS would take to each other like a house on fire 19:38:11 p_l: just stuff in enough ram! 19:38:41 hmmm... what about using LLVM for codegeneration? It won't avoid all problems, but might simplify generating code, as it already has ia-64, mips(el), arm ... 19:38:48 *p_l* ducks 19:38:56 neodemi [n=neodemi@82-40-35-21.cable.ubr05.uddi.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:39:17 both mipsbe and mipsle in the download chart at sbcl.org 19:39:26 H4ns: I had the impression that VMS memory manager really likes apps that have long, persistent mappings :) 19:40:20 p_l: that could well be true. when i was using vms, i was mostly programming it in c++ and perl, so my demands were low. 19:40:41 H4ns: Oh, it's an IBM. Discontinued stuff, afaik. And won't run VMS >_> 19:41:04 parodyoflanguage [n=user@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:05 p_l: heavy, loud, useless. 19:41:43 p_l: i've abandoned all my vintage hardware years ago, never regretted that. huge amounts. 19:41:52 -!- neodemi [n=neodemi@82-40-35-21.cable.ubr05.uddi.blueyonder.co.uk] has left #lisp 19:42:48 btw, isn't Itanium 2 basically a HP design? 19:43:08 the design of the itanium was heavily influenced by pa/risc 19:43:47 Fade: Yes, I know, but IIRC intel got scared shitless by amd64 and pulled all resources from ia-64 till they managed to beat it 19:43:48 fgarcia [n=user@205.145.129.164] has joined #lisp 19:44:09 AFAIK they've got some Alpha people now working on next model 19:44:28 amd64 was largely designed by a group taken from DEC around the time of its demise. 19:44:47 in many ways amd64 is a baby alpha. ;) 19:44:49 kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@ptio.kim-minh.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:04 with all that x86 crap grafted on. 19:45:22 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 19:45:24 i thought itanium had been cancelled 19:47:32 Fade: It wasn't, though I heard that when intel staggered, HP sent it's own team and made Itanium 2 19:48:18 and I recall many voices about Itanium 2 being _much_ better than Merced 19:49:03 that wouldn't have been difficult. 19:49:35 As for amd64 being baby alpha... all it takes is to compare EV7 and K8 :D 19:50:19 :) 19:51:25 the spectacular failure of WinNT for Itanium probably didn't help 19:51:25 I remember an IBM tech bitching that POWER should use networked NUMA like amd64 instead of SMP xD 19:51:56 rsynnott: I guess a big part of the reason was how intel pulled workstations from the target 19:51:59 huh. there was a port of NT to mips. 19:52:01 I didn't know that. 19:52:16 there were ports of NT to just about everything at one point 19:52:28 (it was developed on Intel 950) 19:52:40 Fade: at home I have a CD that boots WinNT 4.0 Workstation on x86, PPC, Alpha and MIPS 19:53:10 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:53:15 bizarre 19:53:40 rsynnott: Well, the base architecture (or at least the concept) doesn't seem to bad. But someone should have shot the guys pushing for "complete" backward compatibility 19:53:49 i have a lot of this gear kicking around: http://www.total-knowledge.com/progs/mips/R10K-issue.shtml 19:53:51 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 19:53:56 but I'm stuck with irix. :P 19:53:57 -!- dima2001 [n=dima2001@MOTx6pt3.swm.uni-mannheim.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:54:49 Fade: wouldn't making sure that everything conformed with memory barriers help? :) 19:56:26 afaik Alpha wasn't cache coherent either 19:56:26 -!- manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:56:27 Can anyone recommend a free lisp implementation for gnu/linux? 19:56:35 sbcl 19:56:57 thank you 19:57:31 And a good scheme implementation? 19:57:49 mzscheme is nice 19:58:05 i like gauche scheme 19:58:08 but the people in #scheme would probably have a more informed opinnion. 19:58:22 parodyoflanguage: chicken? (one of the few I actually used) 19:59:07 PLT Scheme looks pretty interesting, chicken seems fine too 19:59:26 Okay, I'll check out #scheme 19:59:30 thanks 19:59:42 there is so many scheme implementation out there 20:00:19 Yeah. 20:03:02 PLT reminds me a little of CL - many things built in, even GUI. Chicken is much smaller but still full-featured and generating executables... and that's just the start of the list :P 20:03:07 deego [n=user@74.255.63.136] has joined #lisp 20:03:43 *``Erik_* is using his O2 as a bookend 20:04:16 wow, The number of differences between Franz clim and mcclim are amazing. It is almost a rule rather than exception, that what works on one will not work on the other.. (and I am not talking of minor differences like user:: vs. clim-user::) 20:05:21 s/are/is :-) 20:06:50 Even some of the simplest examples from either manual don't work on the other clim.. That makes this porting a lot of fun :) 20:07:03 -!- HimitsuNaiyou [n=MuneNoKa@mobile210-152.near.uiuc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:07:55 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 20:08:00 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70dafc.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:13:16 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 20:14:10 Mynch [i=Mynch@129.241.118.236] has joined #lisp 20:21:18 HimitsuNaiyou [n=MuneNoKa@mobile210-152.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:22:02 -!- HimitsuNaiyou [n=MuneNoKa@mobile210-152.near.uiuc.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 20:22:37 HimitsuNaiyou [n=MuneNoKa@mobile210-152.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:22:47 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-92.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:23:14 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:29:41 josemanuel [n=josemanu@73.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:30:29 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:32:41 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 20:33:22 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 20:33:46 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:29 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=user@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:43:42 parodyoflanguage [n=user@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:50 -!- wusr [n=wusr@c-0f5fe353.732-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:48:57 haimez [n=chatzill@c-76-104-23-233.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:12 Hello all 20:50:26 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D4D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:51:53 I have some questions I hope some of you more experienced users could help with 20:51:59 if you're available that is 20:52:14 just ask it 20:52:45 Well I was hoping someone could help me out using LISP as a backend for a webserver to perform functions on a dynamic webpage 20:52:56 I'm pretty new at LISP and programming in general 20:52:59 but that's the end goal 20:53:11 minion: hunchentoot 20:53:12 hunchentoot: Hunchentoot is a web server written in Common Lisp and at the same time a toolkit for building dynamic websites. http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 20:53:12 drewc: herep 20:53:22 minion: weblocks 20:53:23 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``weblocks''. 20:54:06 as a quick question, does huchentoot integrate with SQL? 20:54:12 <``Erik_> weblocks just had a release on freshmeat today. I'm using ucw at the moment 20:54:23 haimez: hunchentoot is only a web server AFAIK 20:54:24 haimez: hunchentoot does not know/use/require sql 20:54:39 haimez: it is a http server, nothing else. think apache. 20:54:46 haimez: if you're interested, I have the basis of a framework that could be easy to use. I have a small example available here. join #lispweb for more info (as to remove the noize here) (for the record: there are other (perhaps better) frameworks too! 20:54:51 minion: weblocs URL: http://weblocks.viridian-project.de/ 20:54:52 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 20:55:06 well done, minion 20:55:29 Krystof: what's that warning about? bot abuse? 20:55:37 yes 20:55:41 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-186-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 20:55:47 it also seems to work well as a younder detector 20:55:53 hehehe 20:56:00 sigh 20:56:37 Does that abusive fuck never cease 20:58:59 -!- paddy_mullen [n=patrickm@c-68-44-45-244.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:00:27 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:02:05 ok that was pretty stupid.. Of cource I ment haimez 21:02:07 -!- bfein_ [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Adios"] 21:02:31 hahaha 21:02:36 well I hate you too :-D 21:02:42 ejs1 [n=eugen@92.49.201.112] has joined #lisp 21:07:46 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-246-085.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:32 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:12:34 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:13:12 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:51 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:20 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:20:46 -!- nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:25 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [] 21:21:37 user___ [n=user@p5492525E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:33 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:02 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 21:24:29 -!- fgarcia [n=user@205.145.129.164] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:25:10 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 21:25:34 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 21:26:06 manuel__ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:26:23 does xah lee always post useless junk? 21:26:55 Yeah. 21:26:56 sykopomp: ? 21:27:03 just making sure 21:27:07 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:27:15 I'm actually bothering to read through cll for some reason. 21:27:45 cll? (no, I'm not trolling) 21:27:55 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=user@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:27 madnificent: comp.lang.lisp 21:28:30 I think comp.lang.lisp became better over the last two weeks. 21:28:30 madnificent, comp.lang.lisp, the newsgroup 21:28:39 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host68-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 21:28:54 perhaps I should read that 21:29:02 Only if you got the nerves 21:29:19 and the time 21:29:25 to waste 21:29:50 oh, stupid question (game-related): has anyone seen an example or some tutorial for CL-ODE ? 21:34:04 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:36:02 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:36:26 -!- birdsbite [n=user@74.196.9.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:41 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-246-085.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:07 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:44:25 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0E752.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:33 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-194-236.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:24 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 21:45:38 rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:11 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E562.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:46:13 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 21:46:50 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 21:50:02 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 21:51:21 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-250-153-200.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:33 stassats: If you provide a patch for the slime-call-defun bug, I'll apply it. 21:53:00 In Slime, did something happen to C-u C-c C-c (compile with high debug), I don't seem to have it anymore and not spotting anything in ChangeLog 21:54:30 nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 21:54:32 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:54:32 *sykopomp* is amazed at the sheer level of troll flooding cll 21:55:18 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 21:55:25 sykopomp: there's this thing named "killfile", you know 21:55:29 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-200-75.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:55:35 killfile? Never heard of it. 21:55:39 (really) 21:56:18 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Killfile 21:56:22 UnwashedMeme: It does not work for me also. Weird, I'll look into it. 21:56:31 sykopomp: "successfully" reading usenet groups requires using sophisticated tools that allow you to filter out unwanted content easily 21:56:46 twit list... hahaha 22:02:34 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:53 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:05:13 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-194-65.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:18 -!- haimez [n=chatzill@c-76-104-23-233.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:05:46 moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 22:07:12 xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:17 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-194-236.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:07:28 madnificent: want to see something mega-fun? 22:07:36 madnificent: try (equalp (clone () ()) (clone () ())) 22:07:37 ;) 22:10:52 UnwashedMeme: On what SBCL version are you? 22:10:58 UnwashedMeme: I think it's a regression in SBCL. 22:12:59 So. There's this guy living here. Got talking about programming. He has never heard of lisp, but he plans to check it out. (: 22:13:10 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:17 That's how you recruit new lispers! Have 'em give you pizza, then tell 'em about the wonders fo lisp. 22:14:46 He just said so so while you talking he could grab for more pizza 22:14:57 ;p 22:15:13 Well. I dunno. He made the pizza and there's lots more of it. 22:15:13 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [] 22:16:44 -!- fiveop [n=fiveop@pD9E6C4B7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:18:05 -!- FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:18:15 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-194-65.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:18:23 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:18:35 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-194-65.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:53 tcr: just upgraded to 1.0.25 at the same time 22:19:55 -!- acieroid [n=quentin@238.21.83-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:19:59 -!- holycow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:20:16 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslc-082-082-054-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:50 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-116-173.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:22:49 user_ [n=user@p549253D3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:04 -!- user_ [n=user@p549253D3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:23:06 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-250-153-200.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:27:59 jao [n=jao@252.Red-79-155-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:00 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:29:03 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 22:29:46 -!- pokey19 [n=dmg@DEBC4.VPN.Dal.Ca] has quit [] 22:30:30 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:50 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:32:26 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:39 -!- KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:32:41 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["BB"] 22:34:36 -!- user___ [n=user@p5492525E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:37:12 acieroid [n=quentin@238.21.83-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:36 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 22:38:36 madnific` [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 22:39:39 UnwashedMeme: What did you have before? 22:42:48 pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167204247.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:09 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:43:45 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-140-67.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 22:43:52 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:44:15 -!- pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167204247.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has left #lisp 22:46:51 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:47:07 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@73.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:47:30 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:38 manuel__ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:48:35 Someone here with sbcl 1.0.24? 22:49:16 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:50:40 Is there a way to take an argument list and see which methods apply to it? 22:51:02 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:51:19 I am new to sbcl. First Loading all the lisp files and then compiling them leads to double-load messages like (defconstant.. trying to redefine)... OTOH, if I try to simply compile all of them, I get errors like "This package is undefined. " 22:51:33 s/messages/error messages 22:52:15 tcr: i had 1.0.24 before and it did work with that 22:52:28 hey what was that lisp date/time library again? 22:53:11 minion: tell cYmen about local-time 22:53:12 cYmen: have a look at local-time: local-time is a development library for manipulating date and time information in a semi-standard manner. http://www.cliki.net/local-time 22:53:49 thanks felix 22:53:54 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:58 -!- madnific` is now known as madnificent 22:54:37 UnwashedMeme: Thanks, I haven't managed to make up an isolated test case. I'll post to sbcl-devel the slime-related test case. 22:55:01 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-194-65.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:55:20 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-194-65.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:38 tcr: when i added a (declaim ...) at the top of the file, i did still get the debug info 22:56:03 tcr: so it isn't anything about the compilation policy itself, just the compile-with-policy type stuff 22:56:55 UnwashedMeme: Perhaps you want to post? 22:57:04 I'm too tired actually. 22:57:40 tcr: I can try, you may have to annotate tomorrow if I miss something 22:57:42 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:58:25 can someone give me an example of how to use compute-applicable-methods? 22:58:54 UnwashedMeme: As test case for Slime use (defun bar () (break)), and paste the topmost frames of the backtrace after you compile that function with C-c C-c vs. C-u C-c C-c 23:02:46 -!- cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:35 UnwashedMeme pasted "Example of compute-applicable-methods" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76257 23:03:50 vostibackle: check that paste 23:05:03 UnwashedMeme: thank you 23:05:48 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:06:30 I had forgotten the # 23:06:53 cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has joined #lisp 23:08:49 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:10:31 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.57.138] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:10:38 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.71.204] has joined #lisp 23:12:43 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 23:13:10 iceman_ [n=iceman@121.223.198.16] has joined #lisp 23:20:46 stepnem_ [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:33 tcr: I'm showing different results for C-u C-c C-c (works) and C-u C-c C-k (doesn't) 23:22:14 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-230-178.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 23:23:33 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@92.49.201.112] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:24:59 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:38 tcr: and I don't recall C-u C-c C-c working for me earlier, but now i can't get it to not work 23:27:08 C-u C-c C-c works for me on 1.0.22 23:27:22 i'm still on 1.0.25 23:27:40 does C-u C-c C-k work? 23:28:25 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [] 23:30:09 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:32:10 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:51 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:09 -!- iceman_ [n=iceman@121.223.198.16] has quit ["I am Iceman, Linux hero of time!"] 23:37:49 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-137-206.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 23:38:15 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [No route to host] 23:38:52 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-137-206.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:41:05 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:10 hi Fare 23:41:47 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 23:42:56 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:43:54 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:47:20 tcr: I can't reproduce now, and looking at slime.el neither slime-compile-and-load-file nor slime-compile-file seem to be effecting the slime-compilation-policy, could that just be an error with C-u C-c C-k? 23:48:50 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless108.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:49:58 UnwashedMeme: It's a problem in SBCL, not in Slime. A problem with sb-ext:restrict-compiler-policy. 23:50:11 UnwashedMeme: Look at swank-compile-string in swank-sbcl.lisp 23:52:29 Beket [n=stathis@ppp7-197.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:52:45 tcr: but at this point, no matter what i try the C-u C-c C-c VS C-c C-c, always does the right thing (the first with debug, the second without) 23:52:53 HimitsuNaiyou` [n=MuneNoKa@par0978.urh.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 23:52:55 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:53:07 -!- nunb [n=user@94.161.215.219] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:17 the problem seems to have gone away by trying to document it :-/ 23:53:55 How do you discriminate? 23:54:14 tcr: i'll make a paste 23:54:59 elurin [n=user@88.231.223.140] has joined #lisp 23:56:02 UnwashedMeme pasted "compilation policy" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76259 23:57:02 ah well whatever 23:58:22 UnwashedMeme annotated #76259 "C-u C-c C-k" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76259#1 23:59:24 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:39 tcr: I thought I recalled that prefix also working for compiling the file, am i making that up? 23:59:42 jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has joined #lisp