00:01:36 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:03:06 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-23-190-183.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:05:34 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:10:36 Strav [n=user@dsl-60-177.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 00:10:45 any cmucl users around? 00:11:12 Very few, if any, I'd expect, why? 00:11:49 (Depending on your reasons for asking, some non-cmucl users may be able to assist.) 00:11:59 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:51 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:45 I'm testing some code that won't run under sbcl for some reason I do not wish to investigate for the moment. Cmucl has no problem loading it though, it oftenly get loose and use most of my cpu. I had some similar problems with clisp before and wish to know: is there some configuration issue I'm not aware of, why every lisp interpreter/compiler I use beside sbcl seems unstable. 00:15:26 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D12B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:16:01 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@66.166.232.134] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:16:08 Strav - that's a very common problem. If you read the README, it says to put LISP_STABLE=yes in your /etc/rc.conf.local 00:16:31 If anyone is interested I just put together a basic SVM library. The implementation of the SMO algorithm is incomplete in case anyone wants to finish it. find it here: git clone http://common-lisp.net/project/suave/git/cl-svm/.git 00:16:48 ayrnieu: you're not joking? 00:16:59 It's a user configuration issue, not a computer configuration issue. Ignore ayrnieu, that was an obvious joke. 00:17:53 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:54 You've been using SBCL, so your model of lisp behavior is based on what SBCL does, and you avoid, consciously or subconsciously, things that cause SBCL to be unstable. 00:17:59 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-187-170.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:18:03 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 00:18:16 That set of things that cause the implementation to become unstable is both implementation-dependent and implementation-version dependent. 00:19:04 I'm aware of a few things in current SBCL that are either unstable or stably wrong, for example. 00:19:28 nyef: I'm usually interfacing sbcl or any other with slime. Thing is: I would expect, after aborting some faulty evaluation, that the underlying lisp will resolve to a normal state although this is rarely the case. 00:20:30 Aborting in the sense of sending an asynchronous interrupt, or aborting in the sense that it crashes to the debugger and you picking the abort restart? 00:20:51 X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has joined #lisp 00:20:59 crashes to the debugger and selecting abort. 00:21:58 Hrm. If it actually gets to the debugger, and abort leaves things messed up, then either the heap was corrupted before the debugger gained control or there's some cleanups that need an unwind-protect. 00:22:11 Or you're dealing with FFI and something is broken there. 00:24:06 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 00:27:19 just to clear things up, are cmucl or slime considered to be sufficently stable? (for some basic events like aborting an evaluation and such)? 00:27:32 yes 00:28:29 installing both slime and cl-swank ? is it ok or conflicting ? 00:29:33 they'll most probably conflict 00:29:48 Zhard: add a dns-nameservers X.X.X.X after iface eth0 inet dhcp in /etc/network/interfaces 00:29:51 ups sorry 00:31:30 argh. I'll google some more. thanks anyways. 00:31:33 -!- Strav [n=user@dsl-60-177.aei.ca] has left #lisp 00:31:49 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:12 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:08 clhs read-sequence 00:35:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_seq.htm 00:35:11 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:39:09 nimalan [n=nimalan@128.189.251.167] has joined #lisp 00:44:12 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:45:22 drafael [n=tapio@130.216.92.172] has joined #lisp 00:45:53 dcjackson [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro.clark-communications.com] has joined #lisp 00:46:12 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:20 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.174.242] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:46:54 dcjackson_ [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro.clark-communications.com] has joined #lisp 00:47:00 -!- 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[n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:50 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:53 -!- tetha [n=hk@pD9EE6DCA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:06:01 fusss: hi 03:06:02 tetha [n=hk@pD9EE7FBC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:17 hey felideon :-) 03:06:23 how's it going? 03:06:37 just struggling with goddawful browser quirks 03:06:41 nice 03:06:48 trying to drag an image across frame boundaries 03:07:09 like in a frameset? 03:07:14 *fusss* forced to remove a toolbar iframe and making that into a div 03:07:20 oh iframe 03:07:39 interesting 03:08:32 DrTilt [n=browning@adsl-75-36-5-64.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:33 for a while i had the iframe scrolling larger and large instead of having the dragged object leave its area 03:08:51 yeah, i've never tried that. 03:09:31 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 03:09:35 hey do you have any example code on how to set up some pages to require authentication in Hunchentoot? 03:09:41 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:09:56 yeah, i do 03:10:20 session based authentication right? it's in the examples as well 03:11:15 i have hunchentoot identification crap with openid and facebook connect as well, somewhere .. 03:11:25 oh interesting 03:12:05 the new hunchentoot looks different though 03:12:07 complete revamp 03:13:52 new? 03:13:59 how do I know what version i have heh 03:14:51 nevermind, i foudn a changelo 03:15:47 0.15.7 03:17:20 look at the SESSION-TEST function in the test.lisp file 03:18:56 authentication is basically posting a form with username/password, doing the magic lookup on the server side, and setting a server-side logged-in flag with SESSION-VALUE and unlocking features based on whether that flag is set or not. 03:19:38 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:20:28 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 03:21:18 got it. sounds good. 03:21:41 I probably should update Hunchentoot to the latest version before I write any more code :) 03:29:14 http://uint32t.blogspot.com/2007/12/abusing-hunchentoots-dispatch-mechanism.html 03:32:50 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:34:46 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:24 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:39:35 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009020911]"] 03:40:44 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:05 bkudria [n=bkudria@kudria.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:33 azanar [n=azanar@c-67-183-123-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:52 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp7-197.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:47:36 bah. I just can't muster the energy to chase mcclim bugs. 03:49:54 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 03:56:01 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-65.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:59:25 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:59:31 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 04:01:51 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:06:19 -!- blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:12:58 blast_hardcheese [n=blast_ha@dsl092-043-124.lax1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:15 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:22:12 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [] 04:23:54 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:14 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:55 whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa91] has joined #lisp 04:28:50 -!- rpg [n=rpg@c-24-62-4-151.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:33:03 slime pinwheel of doom 04:33:36 a curious indication that I should move my cursor slightly to the left or right and try M-. again 04:33:53 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:34:32 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:35:33 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 04:36:16 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:38:45 -!- DrTilt [n=browning@adsl-75-36-5-64.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:39:19 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 04:40:41 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-71-146-74-53.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:42:50 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-81-28.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 04:42:55 Hi. 04:43:02 mogunus: o/ 04:43:07 Does anyone use clg? Glade integration does not seem to be working. 04:43:35 I get the error WARNING: GLib-GObject: invalid (NULL) pointer instance when I try to invoke load-interface on my .glade file 04:43:58 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:46:42 KalifG [n=user@166.128.194.151] has joined #lisp 04:48:25 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 04:48:34 is there a difference between (require :package) and (require 'package) in SBCL? 04:49:13 The latter interns the symbol named "PACKAGE" in the current package. 04:51:41 vostibackle [n=vosti@cpe-24-28-81-28.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:52:14 And the former interns a symbol with said name in the keyword package instead. 04:57:20 so if i'm in CL-USER and (require 'package) i can use (package:function), but if I (require :package) I have to switch to that package with (in-package :package)? 04:57:26 not sure I understand the difference. 04:59:13 felideon, read http://flownet.com/ron/packages.pdf 05:01:32 IIRC, the parameter to require is a string designator, not actually anything directly to do with the package system proper. 05:01:33 cool, thanks 05:04:12 lboard [n=lboard@122.165.28.253] has joined #lisp 05:05:23 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:05:28 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:47 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.161.60] has joined #lisp 05:09:49 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:10:16 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-47-203.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 05:11:26 (cffi:defcfun "fork" :int) 05:15:18 -!- lboard [n=lboard@122.165.28.253] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 05:16:31 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:16:51 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:17:03 -!- retupmoca 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[n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:29:31 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:29:50 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 05:29:58 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:30:14 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:34:40 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:38:49 myrkraverk`` [n=johann@85-220-125-72.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 05:39:18 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:39:27 psyllo [n=psyllo@67-42-125-229.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:00 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 05:52:39 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@85-220-122-166.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:53:24 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-221-231-195.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:08 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-23-190-183.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:07:29 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 06:09:10 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:10:30 Good morning. 06:11:31 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:51 Good morning to you, beach. 06:20:34 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslc-082-082-054-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:21:35 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.56.149] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:26:17 adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 06:29:55 *hefner* wonders if sbcl's mod calls truncate internally 06:31:06 it does. 06:31:25 -!- azanar [n=azanar@c-67-183-123-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:32:27 (trace truncate) shows this, but src/code/numbers.lisp shows that it calls rem, which calls truncate. 06:44:34 lyte [n=lyte@60-242-109-30.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 06:45:30 dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-34-140.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:41 user___ [n=user@p54926AFD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:51 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 06:57:02 yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:57:10 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:03:13 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:07:42 -!- repnop [n=repnop@ppp-69-239-23-237.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:08:02 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.171.120] has joined #lisp 07:08:27 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F5AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:10:13 paddymullen [n=patrickm@c-76-99-240-90.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:26 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:21:23 dys` [n=andreas@p5B313E1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:24:20 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:26:52 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B314373.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:27:00 -!- dys` is now known as dys 07:30:31 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:30:32 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:31:34 I just found "Let Over Lambda", a lisp book that apparently came out in 2008 07:31:42 have I been living under a rock? 07:31:52 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:56 -!- turbo24prg [n=turbo24p@mail.turbolent.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:32:15 good morning 07:32:25 antifuchs: there's been some debate about it recently 07:32:25 07:32:33 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:32:38 but holy crap, the review I read sounds like it breeds even more smugger lisp weenies than graham's works 07:34:23 antifuchs - which review are you reading? 07:34:26 sykopomp: good to know (: 07:34:45 I was reading what's on http://www.amazon.com/Let-Over-Lambda-Doug-Hoyte/dp/1435712757 07:34:58 antifuchs: Xachs was pretty critical of it. 07:35:00 ah. 07:35:24 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 07:35:34 it's not correct to say that xach was 'critical' of it. 07:36:02 he seemed like it, maybe attacking the book was his way of saying he loves it. 07:36:14 'critical' suggests that some thought went into the process. I also wouldn't call what xach wrote a 'review'. He pretty needs to spend the rest of his life with a scarlet 'W' on his clothing. 07:36:16 spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 07:37:41 wow, that's some fierce words you're throwing at my friend there, ayrnieu 07:37:55 yeah, it's absolutely shameful. 07:38:39 Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has joined #lisp 07:40:37 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:42:37 but the first four chapters of the book are online, so you can just read those. He frames the book in the very beginning as an attack on 'stylistic aphorisms' about macros. "Use them when a function won't do.", etc. 07:43:25 wat 07:45:49 exu0 [n=u@dslb-084-056-128-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:54 Dear sykopomp, IT HAS Come to my attention that you may have some questions about my latest message [but the first ...] to the forum, which you were prevented from asking me at the time. It would be a great favor to me if you could give a messenger your questions, or tell him that you'll send them later on. Thanks. ayrnieu. 07:47:22 chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.173.51.95] has joined #lisp 07:47:45 ayrnieu: wat? 07:49:06 where is xach's review, by the way? 07:49:30 if you want to soil yourself with his indistinguishable-from-malice emission, it's on reddit. 07:49:48 Are we talking about a book or a religion? 07:50:01 Aankhen``: depends on who you ask 07:50:14 it seems we have a quasi-graham in our hands. 07:50:32 Aankhen - I'm talking about a shit review. The book stands well enough for itself. 07:51:05 http://reddit.com/r/programming/comments/6kc4p/ 07:52:00 One day -- I swear, one day -- I will understand what the CLOS hate is about. 07:52:23 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 07:52:31 it's because you read xach's 'review' that the question occurs to you, sykopomp. There's no CLOS hate in LOL, it just isn't relevant. 07:53:23 clos ==? 07:53:32 ayrnieu: triggered by it, yes, but it's a general statement. 07:53:32 minion: CLOS? 07:53:33 CLOS: The Common Lisp Object System is based on generic functions, multiple inheritance, and declarative method combination. http://www.cliki.net/CLOS 07:56:03 I love that the guy writes a book about common lisp and announces it in his _first_ post to comp.lang.lisp. If he was going for outsider cred, he got it. 07:56:48 *sykopomp* generally just gets the impression that c.l.l. is just a shithole. 07:58:17 mega1 [n=mega@3e70dafc.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:58:38 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 07:58:48 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-224-126.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 07:58:57 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:59:46 rsynnott_ [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 08:00:16 someone needs to tell bombshelter13 about Greg Valentino as a counterproof 08:00:17 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 08:02:50 sykopomp: CLOS isn't "pure" enough. 08:03:31 pure what enough? 08:04:10 Aankhen``: is there a significant practical example where its supposed 'impurity' (by which I assume you mean that not every single little bit of CL is implemented on top of CLOS), is a significant hinderance? 08:04:43 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 08:05:01 sykopomp: Erm, you're asking the wrong person. I just told you what my impression was based on the examples of CLOS hate that I've seen. 08:05:06 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 08:05:10 (IOW, I love CLOS.) 08:05:16 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:05:16 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:05:47 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 08:05:50 Aankhen``: that's fine. I'm just wondering if there's anything other than `omg impure D:' behind it -- whether that really affects anything I'd actually care about. 08:06:18 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:06:35 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:07:47 sykopomp: Not that I've seen. :-) But then I don't have the experience to be able to say that with authority. 08:12:22 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 08:13:02 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:13:11 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 08:14:44 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:14:50 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:16:09 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:19:16 -!- vostibackle 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quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:17:33 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-34-140.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:18:16 Mannerisky [n=Manneris@24-117-137-23.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:28 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:20:23 -!- X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has left #lisp 09:21:52 mechine [n=mutable@220-253-187-75.NSW.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:22:45 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:22:56 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:37 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:26:38 yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:30:40 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB99B8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:31:14 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:32:05 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA289.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:32:09 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 09:51:49 blist 09:51:57 opz. 09:53:29 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.161.60] has quit [] 09:56:22 Beket [n=stathis@ppp7-197.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 09:56:40 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:01:52 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.161.60] has joined #lisp 10:06:54 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:08:02 good day 10:08:20 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:11:35 toddoon [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:39 i try to get padding chars to the right, (format nil "~10,2,2,,'#,'_,'EE" pi) -> "__3.14E+00", how do i get "3.14E+00__"? (using ~xx,yT doesn't help me) 10:12:58 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:13:18 i mean, i wold like to print floats aligned to the left 10:14:54 bbl 1h, sorry 10:20:30 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:30:59 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:32:49 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 10:34:57 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D2E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:57 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D2E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:40:27 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 10:41:59 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 10:48:23 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169328.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:48:39 -!- azanar [n=azanar@dsl231-050-036.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [] 10:49:44 azanar [n=azanar@dsl231-050-036.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:43 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 10:52:47 mornfall [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 10:54:38 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-137.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:55:40 -!- FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:56:00 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:56:11 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:40 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 10:59:33 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:11 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:01:26 minion: memo for trebor_dki: (format nil "~10,,,'_A" (format nil "~,2,2,,'#,'_,'EE" pi)) 11:01:27 Remembered. I'll tell trebor_dki when he/she/it next speaks. 11:02:03 -!- r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-68-15-137.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["rr"] 11:03:54 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:04:04 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:22 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.161.60] has quit [] 11:06:51 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:06:52 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 11:10:00 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:00 -!- psyllo [n=psyllo@67-42-125-229.slkc.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:14:17 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:15:37 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:15:47 bbe [n=bbe@117.89.161.107] has joined #lisp 11:17:37 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:19:39 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087CA64.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:39 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:21:18 -!- jao [n=jao@250.Red-79-155-245.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:23:29 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 11:30:23 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 11:36:51 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-10.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:40:04 -!- yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:44:15 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-137-10.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:44:53 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 11:44:55 ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has joined #lisp 11:49:11 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [] 11:51:03 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:47 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:56:48 sorry, for delay, i've been called to a meeting. 11:56:49 trebor_dki, memo from matimago: (format nil "~10,,,'_A" (format nil "~,2,2,,'#,'_,'EE" pi)) 11:57:11 oh, thanks matimago 12:01:08 bbe_ [n=bbe@221.226.128.129] has joined #lisp 12:05:26 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:46 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:08:59 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:13:01 -!- bbe [n=bbe@117.89.161.107] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:13:13 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:15:22 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:15:53 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:11 deliana [n=deliana@147.210.246.189] has joined #lisp 12:23:22 DrTilt [n=browning@75.36.5.64] has joined #lisp 12:29:37 r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-68-15-137.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:30:33 -!- wlr_ [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:32:07 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:32:28 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:28 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:33:42 KalifG` [n=user@166.128.194.151] has joined #lisp 12:36:55 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:01 -!- lboard [n=lboard@122.165.28.253] has quit ["Java user signed off"] 12:40:59 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:41:08 ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has joined #lisp 12:41:20 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 12:43:22 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:44:13 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:58 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:46:05 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-65-220.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:46:05 r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 12:49:09 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 12:50:37 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 12:50:42 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 12:50:42 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:52:07 -!- KalifG [n=user@166.128.194.151] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:52:47 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-16-39.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:53:36 FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has joined #lisp 12:54:11 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 12:59:11 stumpwm (sbcl/linux) takes 8GB virt memory (as top tells me). There is no other process that gives me the idea that uses really much memory, so I assume this is filling up my swap. Any ideas as to how I can limit its memory usage? 12:59:59 madnificent: That memory is not actually used unless you have disabled overcommit 13:00:19 it's a bug in linux kernel, not in SBCL/CCL/whatever uses the same technique 13:00:21 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 13:00:47 p_l: whilst I thought it wasn't used, it's the only thing that can fill up the 4GB of memory here... 13:01:08 p_l: can I see if I have the bug somehow (version number, kernel option that's turned off, or something like it) 13:01:19 bug? what bug? 13:01:58 stassats: idiotic design, in other words. I consider ignoring mmap settings a bug 13:02:08 there is no bug there, everything is working as intended, except your interpretation of the numbers 13:02:32 to have sbcl reserve a smaller chunk of address space, start it with --dynamic-space-size xxx 13:02:41 where xxx is the number of megabytes you want it to use 13:02:42 madnificent: SBCL creates a 8G mapping and tells kernel _not_ to allocate it 13:03:12 jsnell: nothing in res can take up something in the neighbourhood of the 4GB, so I thought I used to misinterpret it... but that seems to be wrong 13:03:36 p_l: do you have any idea whether or not they intend to fix it in a future (minor) release? 13:04:07 and thanks for the information 13:04:28 madnificent: I don't think linux devs find a problem with kernel ignoring MAP_NORESERVE 13:04:42 ;_; 13:06:26 madnificent: the thing is, that some applications would like to create a linear mapping without allocating it, so they call mmap() with MAP_NORESERVE, telling system not to reserve any actual space unless something is written to at said address, and in case of lack of memory signal it with SIGSEGV... 13:06:52 and no swap space is being reserved... 13:07:01 p_l: which is what sbcl does, right? 13:07:04 madnificent: you are worried about free memory, right? 13:07:15 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087CA64.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:07:28 you know that linux uses free memory for cache, etc.? 13:07:31 unfortunately linux ignores MAP_NORESERVE and will happily invoke Out-of-Memory killer when it finds it cannot find free memory to use for the written area 13:07:47 but strange thing is, that my system doesn't use enough swap to have the 8GB of memory in use either 13:07:51 stassats: yes 13:07:53 Hi all. I'm getting an unhandeled memory fault when I try to use xml-glade features of clg. Does anyone know about this/has run into this problem? 13:08:04 madnificent: that's overcommit for you 13:08:10 stassats: but it's actually turning to swap for other processes :) 13:08:22 p_l: so why wouldn't they do it correctly? is there a reason for it? 13:08:32 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["All these memories will be lost, like tears in rain."] 13:08:32 Changing SBCL to do it in a different way is (a) relatively easy (b) has already been done. That fact that so far no SBCL user has stepped up and polished up that patch so that it could be committed tells me that nobody actually _needs_ it. 13:08:32 it can swap unused processes too 13:09:01 lichtblau: I consider ignoring MAP_NORESERVE a bug in VM implementation in linux 13:09:07 lichtblau: or isn't into sbcl hacking :P 13:09:37 *p_l* is too scared to touch virtual memory system in linux 13:09:47 p_l: the behavior or not of MAP_NORESERVE is completely irrelevant to whatever problem madnificent is having 13:10:07 madnificent: I think that's just a bad excuse. 13:10:07 I don't know why you insist it does 13:10:08 Anyone running normal SBCL instead of the incremental allocation branch doesn't get to complain about non-incremental allocation IMNSHO. 13:10:22 jsnell: woah, you know more? ^_^ (this is turning out to be much more informative than I was assuming) 13:10:35 jsnell: the problem is interpretation of the numbers reported. I wrote why the numbers are like that :) 13:10:48 It's not like "git clone" requires mad SBCL hacking skills. 13:10:55 lichtblau: perhaps I never heard of the different branches 13:11:27 lichtblau: I don't have anything against non-incremental allocation. I just don't like how linux reacts. 13:11:28 p_l: welll, you're certainly doing a very good impression of somebody who thinks that the problem is sbcl using 8GB of swap 13:11:43 g0ju [n=moo@dslb-088-074-238-186.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:47 it would force me to stop using the gentoo system for upgrading sbcl 13:11:57 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:12:02 madnificent: you've been told how to make sbcl reserve less memory already, that should be sufficient 13:12:21 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:12:21 jsnell: I was repeatedly told that I'm bad at making myself understandable. It seems it struck again, so I'll withdraw 13:12:22 jsnell: surely is, it stays interesting though 13:12:36 p_l: you've been interesting 13:14:11 ignotus [n=ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has joined #lisp 13:14:24 LostMonarch [n=roby@host68-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:14:42 lichtblau: BTW, how current is incremental allocation branch? 13:17:08 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:13 LiamH [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has joined #lisp 13:18:15 -!- shizzy0 [n=shane@c-76-105-6-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:24 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:22:49 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:25:22 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:29:34 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [] 13:30:30 -!- hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has quit [] 13:31:53 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:32:58 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 13:33:37 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:36:45 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:38:40 p_l: don't recall, I'd have to check. But I'm pretty sure nothing fundamental has changed since then. 13:39:52 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:40:03 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit ["leaving"] 13:43:01 is there somewhere a good description / tutorial on common lisp types? 13:43:20 -!- albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:43:26 albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 13:43:46 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:44:55 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.88.5] has joined #lisp 13:45:59 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:46:10 lichtblau: Then I'm going to have a look at it again... I'd be scared of manipulating SBCLs internals 13:46:43 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:47:20 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:47:35 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:35 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:47:40 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-68-58-88-241.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:25 zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 13:51:00 adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 13:53:10 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:54:55 -!- whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa91] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:55:54 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D2E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:31 segv [n=mb@p4FC1ECAB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:00 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:01:14 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-133.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:33 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 14:03:38 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-212-67-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:03:49 This doesn't work in mcclim (no applicable method..) 14:03:49 (accept 'string :stream *standard-input*). Is this a bug? 14:03:56 package being clim-user 14:05:45 at the repl? 14:06:30 yes 14:06:42 -!- KalifG` [n=user@166.128.194.151] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:06:45 slime repl? 14:06:51 stassats: yes 14:06:52 try to do this in clim-listener 14:07:04 hnr [n=henry@62.49.66.13] has joined #lisp 14:07:20 because slime's repl isn't a part of mcclim 14:07:29 rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:09:12 I see. This time, I tried this * (clim-user::accept 'string) - after typing clbuild preloaded (to load my mcclim in a non-slimy lisp), same debugger output 14:10:05 well, sbcl's repl is not a part of mcclim either 14:10:53 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-200-227-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:10:56 (require :clim-listener) (clim-listener:run-listener) 14:11:05 and to it there 14:11:10 s/to/do/ 14:13:09 Oh, with sbcl preloaded, and then typing these two, it returned another * prompt. Anything I enter there, like (+ 1 1) .. My just enters literally 14:14:57 lboard [n=lboard@117.193.201.244] has joined #lisp 14:17:19 then you did something wrong 14:17:34 does it work for you? 14:17:57 yes 14:18:05 "clbuild run listener" should also work 14:18:26 lichtblau: ^^ for clim? 14:18:44 Ah, does 14:18:54 if your prompt is "*" then you are not following instructions correctly 14:19:24 lichtblau: This one does (accept 'string) 14:19:27 -!- ignotus [n=ignotus@unaffiliated/ignotus] has left #lisp 14:19:38 Xof: i retried, still the same. Perhaps something is broken in my build? 14:20:17 if (clim-listener:run-listener) does not open a window with a clim repl, then something is broken, yes 14:21:28 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:21:30 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 14:22:30 Oh, I retried. Worked. Didn't know it'd open a new window.. I am trying on a remote machine, so a lot of delay. Thanks everyone 14:23:52 -!- r0bby_ [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:15 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 14:26:43 I can run clbuild run demodemo for the mcclim demo. But, how do I load the demo in a running clim? Load all the files in the examples directly one by one? 14:27:26 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:05 (require :clim-examples) 14:28:27 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 14:28:34 then run (clim-demo::demodemo) 14:28:41 -!- technik [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:28:44 technik [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has joined #lisp 14:28:48 thanks 14:28:56 -!- LiamH [n=healy@129-2-175-69.wireless.umd.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:29:53 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-87.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:31:13 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:33:09 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-16-39.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [] 14:33:23 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:36 For CL, I was thinking of something yesterday. We have (car), (caar), ... - as well as (first), (second), ... - is there a way to get the Nth element of the array, without writing the function one's self to do it? 14:33:55 erm, aref? 14:33:56 clhs aref 14:33:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_aref.htm 14:34:14 TDT: CAR, FIRST, etc. work on lists, not on arrays 14:34:43 nthL 14:35:04 tcr: Hmm, thought arrays and lists were interchangeable for the most part 14:35:14 no, they aren't 14:35:24 TDT: How come you think they were? 14:35:26 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:35:28 nth or elt for lists, then 14:36:05 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:01 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [No route to host] 14:37:17 pokey19 [n=dmg@DEBDE.VPN.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 14:37:19 cads [n=max@207-119-94-98.stat.centurytel.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:22 ericklc [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:38:02 if you don't modify them, and don't estimate time of random access, then you can come to the conclusion that they are interchangeable 14:38:11 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-162.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:38:37 to start slime in Emacs, it's M-x slime, right? 14:38:52 right 14:39:04 doesn't it work? 14:39:50 tcr: Well, tbh it's probably best if I go and read a bit about each and find out the differences. I kinda aways assumed that they were, just because both are a container of information, and aren't quite a hash and usually one iterates over both. I'll have to read both, though, and figure it out. 14:39:56 Im getting 'no match' ...i dont know emacs too well, so this sounds stupid... but i should be entering this in the 'scratch' part of Emacs, right? 14:40:15 you don't have slime loaded 14:40:23 do i need to run this code 14:40:24 http://pastie.org/pastes/400028 14:40:32 every time i want to use slime? 14:40:43 hello. how can i use an argument of format as a parameter for format-directive (like (let ((width 10)) (format nil "~*,2,,,,,EE" width pi)))? do i have to create the format-string via format first, or is there a direct way to do this? 14:40:50 put it in your ~/.emacs 14:40:57 TDT: Are you familiar with the difference between single-linked lists, and arrays, in say C (or pretty much any other language)? 14:41:26 trebor_dki: with ~V? 14:41:34 stassats: oh. I am supposed to create that file? 14:41:52 :| 14:41:57 pokey19: if it already isn't 14:42:05 Xof: thanks, sorry i must have overlooked this while reading clhs-format-section. 14:42:17 ijcoxf [n=chatzill@jerry.chem.ox.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:42:19 tcr: Single linked lists, yeah, where the link goes one way (the con cell stuff), but as I see arrays now I'd say they can be traversed both directions - so not quite the same. 14:43:01 double linked lists can be traversed in both directions, though they aren't arrays 14:43:08 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-135-149.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 14:43:30 stassats: ok. It should be a directory, is that right? 14:43:44 pokey19: no, file 14:43:45 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-165-162.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 14:43:50 there is a hidden directory in my home folder .emacs.d ...i assume tht is wat your talking about 14:43:52 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 14:43:53 oh.. ok 14:43:56 C-x C-f ~/.emacs 14:44:09 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:44:16 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 14:45:27 ok. thanks... I hope this will be my last stupid question... But should I evaluate everyone of those lines in the little bit of code i had in my pastie individually? 14:45:35 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-92.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 14:45:43 tcr, stassats: I kinda wish I spent more time learning about data structures from class - I'm going to have to revisit this topic..like tonight, after work. I kinda feel bad for having my BS in computer science and not knowing the difference. 14:45:51 *blink* 14:45:57 pokey19: if you mean the slime configuration, that goes straight in your .emacs 14:46:02 you don't really manually evaluate them. 14:46:10 Xof: i reread the clhs 22.3 about formatted output, but i do not find a description of ~V - can you give me a hint/direction to look for? 14:46:26 oh. I see. ok, let's see how this goes... (thanks for the patience everyone) 14:46:27 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp7-197.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:46:30 trebor_dki: it's not a directive. 14:46:45 I can't remember where it's said; start from clhs format and read everything 14:46:53 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B542.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:47:37 i assume that the .emacs file must be executable? 14:47:46 no 14:47:48 readable 14:48:35 sweet, looks like something is happening :D 14:49:22 ok, i think im all set... i have "CL-USER> " in my emacs and its doing lisp evaluation! 14:50:44 -!- ijcoxf [n=chatzill@jerry.chem.ox.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:50:46 KalifG [n=user@166.128.250.26] has joined #lisp 14:50:48 clhs ~V 14:50:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 14:51:39 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 14:52:20 ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 14:52:24 anyone know of a good tutorial that will walk me through the coding protocal for Slime / CL (im used to C where you just have a bunch of code in text files and compile it in a bunch)... Not too sure exactly what it is called the way CL works. If anyone can give me some terms i could search for id appreciate. Thanks 14:52:28 sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B542.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:52:49 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-74-112.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:53:57 pokey19: http://common-lisp.net/project/movies/movies/slime.mov 14:54:04 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:55:02 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 14:55:06 -!- ericklc [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:55:20 stassats: thanks. 14:56:09 -!- lboard [n=lboard@117.193.201.244] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:29 this will give you a general idea, then you can read http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/slime-talk-2008.pdf 14:59:47 hm (format & ~V) -> i grepped the whole clhs-directory for files containing "\~V" but i can not find anything (trying e.g. "\~A" worked). searching for >lisp "~V"< in google did not bring up anything useful, too. may someone point me to a direction to look/search for? 15:00:06 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:01:00 trebor_dki: please actually read the page that specbot pointed you to. 15:01:21 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:01:23 ups, sorry. 15:01:23 dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-34-140.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:27 -!- pokey19 [n=dmg@DEBDE.VPN.Dal.Ca] has quit [] 15:03:37 ah, now that i search for every "v" -> "In place of a prefix parameter to a directive, V (or v) ", sorry H4ns & tcr... 15:04:44 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:05:05 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 15:05:16 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087CA64.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:59 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:07:33 ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has joined #lisp 15:07:56 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.88.5] has quit [] 15:08:04 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:08:22 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:09 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:11 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.168] has joined #lisp 15:15:04 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:18:09 -!- FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:18:10 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:21:16 silenius_ [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:43 jl__ [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:26 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 15:25:32 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:26:13 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:27 CORRUPTION WARNING in SBCL pid 7515(tid 3062418320) 15:26:54 and Emacs locks up randomly (cpu at 100%) 15:27:21 tid 3062418320/ 15:27:22 *? 15:27:25 o.o 15:28:04 thread id 15:28:18 seems a bit large 15:29:09 I wonder what could cause this behaviour. Yesterday everything worked normally 15:29:35 I did update something yesterday through Ubuntu's UpdateManager but I can't recall what it was 15:32:03 luis: ChangeLog entries for contribs go into contrib/Changelog 15:32:34 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:33:46 -!- bbe_ [n=bbe@221.226.128.129] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:34:36 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-34-140.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:35:55 -!- jl__ [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 15:37:00 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:37:16 -!- silenius_ [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:17 -!- cads [n=max@207-119-94-98.stat.centurytel.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:41:14 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 15:41:38 prxq [n=mommer@X8f92.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 15:42:35 Thumper_ [n=Thumper@about/essy/coffeeAddict/Thumper] has joined #lisp 15:42:44 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:42:50 anyone here looked at matlisp internals? specifically, I am wondering why they shadow cl:real. Seems to serve no purpose. 15:42:54 I have a list with lists inside, I'll like to replace every atom matching a certain predicate by the result of a function of it, without losing the nested structure, is there a construct for this? 15:43:44 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:48 auclairb: homework? :-) 15:44:14 prxq: if you consider research homework :D 15:44:41 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:45:05 what i need is close to subst 15:45:12 fair enough. :-) Well, I don't think there's a ready made one. But it is easy to write one yourself. 15:45:21 only need the new to be a lambda 15:45:37 prxq: alright i guess i'll write it then 15:46:16 auclairb: what about loop and collecting the results after testing/replacing 15:46:55 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.88.5] has joined #lisp 15:47:05 timor [n=icke@age.fsr.et.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 15:47:27 -!- benny` is now known as benny 15:47:41 trebor_dki: I'm not sure how it would handle the nesting, I think i'll just go with a recursive mapcar 15:47:51 re matlisp: found the reason. Ugh. 15:47:53 i remember reading an article Xach wrote, about a connected closure parser. Can anyone tell me where i can find that again? 15:48:29 auclairb: oh, i thought, you would have only a depth of 2 15:49:06 auclairb: a tree structure is pretty easy to recurse over 15:50:11 sykopomp: yes thats why i thought there would be an existing construct 15:50:41 sykopomp: usually when im doing something really basic like that there is eighter an existing construct or im thinking of the problem wrong 15:50:53 tcr: what does it say after "corruption warning"? 15:51:17 auclairb: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_conses.htm Considering there isn't such a construct here, I imagine there's not a built-in one. 15:51:58 mega1: Control stack exhausted. Proceed with caution. (or somesuch, I since deleted the window), then it printed a zillion times (sb-foo::write "Help.") into the inferior-lisp buffer 15:53:57 -!- timor [n=icke@age.fsr.et.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:54:37 Is there a recommended clim introduction? 15:54:41 I am trying to follow simple clim examples from its franz's manual, like the one for reset-clock. For the very same code, sometimes the code works, and at others acl clim says: "The slot STREAM is missing from the object." mcclim always reports "no applicable method." 15:54:57 where my stream is the *test-pane* from its very first example.. 15:55:02 tcr: this is recent sbcl from cvs. Is it reproducible? Stale fasls? 15:55:07 mcclim comes with a gentle introduction document 15:55:21 fasls can't be stale these days 15:55:52 (the full version number is stored in the fasl, and checked before it's loaded) 15:56:07 Xof: Ah, it does. -builds doc.. - 15:57:28 mega1: It's a recent sbcl from cvs. I'm not sure it's reproducible, I could try again later. Basically I tried to create a new emacs Frame while sbcl was compiling/loading the swank files. 15:58:34 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 15:58:41 jsnell: ah, I thought it was only the first three elements 16:01:56 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:02:28 -!- hnr [n=henry@62.49.66.13] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:02:40 Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:03:05 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb53d6.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 16:03:30 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169328.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:03:40 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:04:02 hnr [n=henry@62.49.66.13] has joined #lisp 16:05:01 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:06:11 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:05 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:07:43 Good afternoon. 16:07:56 good morning :) 16:08:22 mornin' beach 16:08:49 sykopomp: How are things? 16:09:29 beach: have the flu :( 16:09:37 darn! 16:12:23 I'm gonna start playing with mcclim soon, although I can't seem to get into it right now (I think I'll go nap) 16:12:36 Sounds like a good plan. 16:12:45 how about you? I trust all is well? 16:13:03 sykopomp: The students are a way skiing, so it's calm this week. 16:13:14 timor [n=icke@age.fsr.et.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 16:14:21 KalifG: Yesterday, I asked you whether you are new to #lisp, but I don't think you saw it. Is that the case? 16:16:43 jajcloz_ [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:52 dima2001 [n=dima2001@141.19.145.146] has joined #lisp 16:22:32 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:23:46 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:25 beach: sorry about that...I saw it but I had Internet issues 16:26:38 beach: I am new here :) 16:26:55 KalifG: Welcome! What brings you here? 16:27:26 postamar [n=postamar@bas11-ottawa23-1096658321.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:27:44 Just a lisp lover...I recently started using IRC again, and I was happy to see #Lisp still around :) 16:28:20 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 16:28:26 Beket [n=stathis@ppp-94-68-94-176.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:30:13 KalifG: so you've been programming in lisp for a long time? 16:30:34 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:31:31 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:51 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:33:47 matimago: Not as much as I'd like...unfortunately I am a PHP programmer by trade 80% of the time...but on the other hand I am the one that gets to do projects in other languages. 16:34:56 matimago: That being said, I do some Lisp on personal stuff, and am trying to expand. I do a fair bit of elisping, and my window manager is stumpwm, and my first programming was done in AutoLISP because my dad was an AutoCAD drafter 16:35:31 What's the opposite of "trailing"? 16:35:41 leading 16:35:53 Right, thanks. 16:35:56 matimago: I am looking forward to doing some web stuff in Lisp soon, going to get an account on hcoop.net 16:36:45 KalifG: do you know http://www.cliki.net/ ? 16:37:07 http://www.cliki.net/web might interest you. 16:37:38 LSP is a way to embed Lisp in HTML like is usually done with PHP. 16:37:45 http://www.cliki.net/Lisp%20Server%20Pages 16:38:02 You will have fun! 16:38:11 matimago: I find the problem usually is to get a client willing to pay for something better than LAMP :) 16:38:29 It might be easier to find a client who doesn't care. 16:38:31 matimago: Yeah, I've been there a few times :) 16:39:20 yeah..it's more for personal stuff at this point...if the app I develop is good enough to sell it'll just have to stand on it's own merits in the future 16:39:40 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:40:22 yeah, I'm intrigued by having a website with a stateful Lisp image behind it rather than the pseudo-state that most scripting languages provide 16:44:48 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:43 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:51 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:45:55 matimago: thanks for the LSP link, that's one that I haven't heard of that one yet 16:46:17 willb [n=wibenton@wireless108.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:48:07 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A750.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:03 KalifG: there's also tech.coop 16:52:09 fe[nl]ix: I evaluated tech.coop, hcoop.net and nearlyfreespeech.net...hcoop.net and tech.coop were close for my needs. I think hcoop.net will be better for me to start out with, and if I need more room/performance/flexibility, I may graduate myself to one of tech.coop's VPSs 16:52:44 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.88.5] has quit [] 16:54:06 fe[nl]ix: they are both so low-priced that I may do both, that way I'm multi-homed in a way 16:54:14 anyone have any experience with either? 16:55:37 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:56:23 khisanth_ [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-129-29.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:25 *sykopomp* ended up using linode. 16:57:18 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@141.157.230.134] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:58:00 -!- khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 16:58:12 blitz_ [n=blitz@217-68-187-100.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:41 sykopomp: I'll check that out 17:00:27 holycow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 17:01:24 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FFA3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:57 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:07:40 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has joined #lisp 17:10:23 ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 17:12:46 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:15:36 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:17:17 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.168] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:19:33 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:23:09 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 17:23:31 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:26:14 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-186-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:27:01 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B313E1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:27:06 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:28:08 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has quit [] 17:28:21 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 17:32:09 -!- p_l [n=plasek@pp82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 17:32:26 p_l [n=plasek@pp82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:34:19 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:39:41 -!- postamar [n=postamar@bas11-ottawa23-1096658321.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:40:15 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.168] has joined #lisp 17:43:21 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:43:24 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-151-208.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:44:30 dj_ [n=chatzill@206-248-129-216.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:46:08 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:16 Good afternoon! Does anybody know why elephant:add-to-root function would be undefined ? I'm using Ubuntu/Postgresql. Thanks 17:47:07 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.201.112] has joined #lisp 17:47:08 I can't think of a good reason 17:47:12 Which version are you using? 17:50:09 eslick : version of ... ? 17:50:12 sbcl 17:50:19 sorry, elephant 17:50:44 4.0.3 17:50:54 There is no elephant version 4.0.3 17:51:10 You are talking about the elephant persistent database or about postgresql? 17:51:23 sorry 1.0 17:51:27 Which darcs repository did you load elephant from, ah ok 17:51:30 no prob! 17:51:43 Have you opened a store? 17:51:48 (open-store ) 17:52:00 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:52:03 tried. that's when i got the error 17:53:02 my apropos says ELEPHANT:ADD-TO-ROOT; No value 17:53:45 so (find-package :elephant) works? 17:54:00 yes. i can load it, too 17:54:04 but (elephant:add-to-root "foo" *store-controller*) fails 17:54:15 correct 17:54:22 oops (elephant:add-to-root "foo" "bar" *store-controller*) 17:54:32 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:03 How about elephant:persistent - does apropos show that? 17:55:10 i can create store, but add-to-root doesn't work 17:55:50 persistent -> no value 17:58:04 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Success] 17:58:16 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 17:59:14 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 17:59:53 is there a function which expands macros fully? 18:00:28 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.168] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:45 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has left #lisp 18:01:43 slash_: Not in the standard. What do you need it for? 18:02:23 slash_: Slime supports it by C-c M-m, which is built on top of swank-backend::macroexpand-all. 18:02:49 well i have a (let ....) 18:02:55 which creates a var 18:03:23 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:03:23 and sbcl complains that the var is not being used anywhere 18:03:52 so i need to see the expansion of body 18:03:58 Use C-c M-m 18:04:08 i didn't say i use emacs ;) 18:04:27 start using! 18:04:35 Then use the analogous functionality of whatever you're using. 18:05:00 Otherwise, checkout Slime, look into swank-sbcl.lisp how macroexpand it implemented 18:05:01 i wonder if vi has such functionality :P 18:05:13 I mean how macroexpand-all is implemented 18:06:14 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:22 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:06:59 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:08:08 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-151-208.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 18:09:42 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 18:09:44 workthrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:09:51 zeller [n=zeller@dhcp-063149.mobile.uci.edu] has joined #lisp 18:11:29 In this example: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/mac_with-slots.html, howcome something like (setq (complex object) foo) works? [not just setf, but setq seems to have incf'ed the value as well] 18:11:49 clhs setq 18:11:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_setq.htm 18:11:52 (setq x1 (+ y1 x2)) 18:12:02 deego: SETQ is specified to behave like setf on symbol macros. 18:12:18 I see. thanks, tcr 18:14:18 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:14:31 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.201.112] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:14:59 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 18:15:28 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:18:08 ericklc [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 18:21:00 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-151-208.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 18:21:49 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:22:39 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:25:50 -!- deliana [n=deliana@147.210.246.189] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:27:19 TimRan [i=tim@korn.rootnode.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:32 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:27:33 -!- TimRan [i=tim@korn.rootnode.net] has left #lisp 18:29:02 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.60.150] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:29:09 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.166.56] has joined #lisp 18:35:48 -!- BrianRice-mb is now known as BrianRice 18:38:02 -!- Zephtar [i=srusek@63.251.21.82] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]"] 18:38:10 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [] 18:38:17 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-151-208.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 18:41:07 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-d1f8bfc7dc400bb5] has joined #lisp 18:41:26 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:06 paddy_mullen [n=patrickm@c-68-44-45-244.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:53 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has left #lisp 18:50:07 -!- dima2001 [n=dima2001@141.19.145.146] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:51:18 antifuchs: Ping? 18:52:56 pong! 18:53:11 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:54:45 antifuchs: privmsg 18:57:20 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.171.120] has quit ["DOS never says EXCELLENT command or filename"] 18:57:53 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:58:33 patrickmullen_ [n=patrickm@c-68-44-45-244.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:38 mstevens_ [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:01:59 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:02:34 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:02:55 -!- patrickmullen_ [n=patrickm@c-68-44-45-244.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:05:07 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-d1f8bfc7dc400bb5] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:05:22 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-e13914ec88d64b91] has joined #lisp 19:05:54 -!- paddy_mullen [n=patrickm@c-68-44-45-244.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:07:42 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@217-68-187-100.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:10:48 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:03 patrickmullen_ [n=patrickm@c-68-44-45-244.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:53 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:28 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 19:16:37 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 19:19:23 X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has joined #lisp 19:19:32 hello 19:19:45 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit ["Be back later"] 19:20:45 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:17 -!- dfox [n=dfox@rb5cm232.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:21:36 michaelw [i=michaelw@lambda.foldr.org] has joined #lisp 19:23:11 -!- hnr [n=henry@62.49.66.13] has quit [] 19:23:58 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslc-082-082-054-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:15 dfox [n=dfox@rb5cm232.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:27:28 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-151-208.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 19:28:19 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:29:01 Rajin_ [n=Rajin@d052187.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 19:29:04 -!- patrickmullen_ [n=patrickm@c-68-44-45-244.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:29:29 -!- acieroid [n=quentin@114.22.83-79.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:30:15 acieroid [n=quentin@238.21.83-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:17 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:37 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:32:32 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:38 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:32:49 -!- mstevens_ [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 19:33:17 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-16-39.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:33:42 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 19:33:56 -!- Rajin_ [n=Rajin@d052187.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:35:51 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 19:37:43 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:37:50 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 19:40:03 dima2001 [n=dima2001@MOTx6pt3.swm.uni-mannheim.de] has joined #lisp 19:47:09 paddy_mullen [n=patrickm@c-68-44-45-244.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:39 -!- zeller [n=zeller@dhcp-063149.mobile.uci.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:52:47 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:08 diog3n3s [n=Matthew@97-118-148-234.hlrn.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:56 When using libre' lisps, is there a way to M-x find-function to instantly go the souce definitions? 19:55:05 source* 19:55:26 M-. 19:55:32 (I am making some progress in moving my company's system from acl clim to mcclim ) 19:55:59 Ah, so I should make tags first. thanks stassats` 19:56:07 no, no tags 19:56:33 you must be in slime buffer 19:56:59 I keep getting "no previous location for this tag... " 19:57:18 either in slime repl, or in a buffer editing a .lisp file 19:57:28 This is a slime started from clbuild slime 19:57:48 What slime version? 19:57:54 The exact message is this: "No previous locations for find-tag invocation" 19:58:15 does M-x slime-edit-definition work? 19:58:34 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-16-39.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [] 19:58:53 buh. weblocks site is down 19:59:14 Ah, yes 19:59:15 Ahh, awesome-mode-line will become functional in a few days 19:59:27 oh, wrong channel 19:59:32 (tcr: still trying to find the version.. this is the slime I just built with clbuild a day or two ago) 19:59:40 -!- diog3n3s [n=Matthew@97-118-148-234.hlrn.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:00:09 clbuild should have fetched it from cvs 20:00:16 Ah, so M-* works 20:01:07 I wouldn't advise on using M-* 20:01:47 You normally use that to pop back from find-tag. I do not know why it's a synonym to M-. and not M-, in Slime. 20:03:18 jao [n=jao@250.Red-79-155-245.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:29 nurv101 [n=askmefor@81.193.34.180] has joined #lisp 20:04:33 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:04:57 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-214-002.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:21 the major problem with the tendency for cl people to keep the software in revision control is that it often happens that the revision control systems are offline. :P 20:05:34 *as a distribution method 20:06:22 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 20:06:35 I couldn't find the version, but the last changedate is: 2009-02-24 12:43 slime.el 20:07:31 Oh, I am sorry, M-. does work. (I type dvorak on a qwerty keyboard, and so type blind, and still mix my , and . ) 20:08:18 M-, should jump back 20:09:11 I see 20:09:53 Fade: And sometimes use very old vcs that is sometimes hard to use in this world where many ISPs think that HTTP(S) is all that everyone needs 20:10:04 yeah. 20:10:41 I tunnel everything over ssh to a proxy on the backbone I control, so it's not such a big deal in that regard, but I often run into this repo unavailable situation. 20:10:45 *p_l* has to forcefully shadow BSD sockets symbols in order to use clbuild and get all 20:11:34 -!- ericklc is now known as ikki 20:12:43 at the moment, in a fresh clbuild instance the weblocks pulled from http://www.bitbucket.org/skypher/weblocks-stable/ fails to compile in some debugging routine 20:12:50 which cascades out 20:13:05 but the cannon site at viridian-project.de is offline. ;P 20:14:43 does leslie polzer come to #lisp? 20:16:08 -!- jao [n=jao@250.Red-79-155-245.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:18:15 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:20:01 Ponon [n=no@p4FD3CF2C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:41 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:21:01 When a clim application is running, how do you print something in the normal stdout ? 20:21:36 Fade: not that I know, no. 20:21:56 (notify-user nil "foo") prints it to the listener area in addition to generating a pop-up warning, but I can't figure out how it does the former. 20:22:22 Why is it that so many Lisp implementations have crappy thread support or no native thread support at all (and maybe only green threads)? Lisp is a great language, but I'm often afraid of using it for real world applications because of crappy implementations. (please forgive me for this judging comment) 20:23:04 -!- dima2001 [n=dima2001@MOTx6pt3.swm.uni-mannheim.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:11 all the commercial variants have threading. 20:23:13 Ponon: it's not all lisp implementations' fault that some of them have crappy thread support. 20:23:13 Ponon: why would you care about "crappy implementations"? 20:23:17 Fade: not native 20:23:34 Ponon: Cause multithreaded GC isn't easy, and free implementations don't have money to spend on having people work on it? :) 20:24:02 Lispworks doesn't have native threads, right? 20:24:08 (tangentially related note: erlang's main implementation only has green threads) 20:24:18 rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:43 pkhuong: Actually it uses pthreads, starting 1 hw thread per cpu 20:24:48 rvirding can probably correct me if erlang's now threadful. 20:24:51 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 20:25:02 pkhuong: And Erlang is kind of designed for green threads :) 20:25:05 p_l: that's new. 20:25:10 erlang is threadful internally yes 20:25:18 os threads that is 20:25:19 There is no end to the ingenuity programmers will apply to the problem of convincing themselves not to use a lisp 20:25:40 but it does not use os threads for erlang processes, of course 20:25:55 This "lisp implementations don't have perfect threading" is just the latest incarnation 20:26:00 tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:02 pkhuong: was added some time ago, mainly afaik to simplify usage of multiple processing units in one computer 20:26:08 -!- ehird [n=ehird@208.78.103.223] has quit ["Caught sigterm, terminating..."] 20:26:12 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 20:26:25 (Btw, this channel has become so much friendlier. It used to be an extremely rude place, some 5 yrs ago.) 20:26:26 p_l: right, much better than the old way of starting multiple processes. 20:26:45 deego: same people. :) 20:26:56 maybe your questions have improved ;) 20:26:59 pkhuong: and gives shared memory interconnect :-) 20:27:02 dlowe: not sure. I don't see rahul here, for one.. 20:27:05 *p_l* reads on VMS clustering 20:27:06 dlowe: I like to point at people who happily use ruby (the matz impl), which has a dreadful threading implementation (: 20:27:27 threading in python is also awful. 20:27:29 antifuchs: it seems to have a dreadful implementation of a number of things. 20:27:42 the threading is especially horrible 20:27:44 -!- timor [n=icke@age.fsr.et.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:27:57 gambit's supposed to gain a similar implementation of threads in the near future, if anyone's using EtoS ;) 20:28:08 antifuchs: To the point that there is a fork which modifies some things in GC to run multiple rubies inside threads 20:28:13 antifuchs: not worse than python, no? 20:28:29 pkhuong: AFAIK worse 20:28:36 antifuchs: do you also laugh? 20:28:38 gasp 20:28:44 Krystof: no, cry /-: 20:28:56 pkhuong: global interpreter lock, a scheduler that forgets to remove scheduler entries, and other niceties (: 20:29:06 threading /processes is not easy if you don't plan for it from the beginning 20:29:38 i like how the ruby virtual machine leaks memory. 20:29:53 don't forget that vanilla ruby can't even be run in more than one instance inside a process (they will stomp each other) 20:30:05 it's even not trivial as well 20:30:30 jao [n=jao@252.Red-79-155-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:30:38 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[away] 20:31:03 which manages to make it worse than python's awful reference counting gc, memory wise. 20:31:36 Fade: reference counting at least is simple and understandable :) 20:31:39 so, back to lisp. I had an idea earlier about resetting data structures. Would it work/be sane to keep all a program's state in a different package from the code, then destroy the package and recreate to ensure that nothing is left? 20:31:39 and yet they're useful. 20:31:42 how does python do circular references? is there a good paper on it? 20:32:09 rvirding: a regular tracing GC picks them up after some time. 20:32:29 ah, ok, that's cheating :-) thank you 20:33:04 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:34 dlowe: is this the latest trend in advanced garbage collection? ;. 20:33:36 ;p 20:34:19 sykopomp: one of the more annoying aspects of automatic gc is forgetting all the spots where a piece of data can be referenced when you want to get rid of it 20:34:39 rvirding: David Bacon has worked with some other people (mostly in the metronome project) to add cycle detection (and throughput, while keeping the short pauses) to reference counting GCs. 20:34:41 dlowe: How should that ensure anything? 20:35:10 dlowe: The symbols live on even when their home-package is deleted 20:35:22 dlowe: wouldn't work in SBCL. 20:35:38 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.168] has joined #lisp 20:36:37 tcr: actually, clhs says that it's implementation dependent. sigh. 20:36:42 pkhuong: thank you will try to remember name, reference counting gc's are one of those things which go straight to the heart, bypasses the brain. 20:36:50 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:36 dlowe: What is implementation-dependent? 20:37:38 dlowe: sometimes I wish to have an interface where I could forcefully make GC kill something, or control allocation etc. Not actual malloc/free style but more like annotations :) 20:38:09 p_l: I don't want that. I prefer to not having invalid references in my lisp 20:38:24 tcr: what happens to symbols if their home package is deleted 20:38:26 You can have a "assert that this is gone" 20:38:29 via weakrefs 20:38:50 dlowe: I haven't run into problems with keeping unwanted references to objects... I use weak pointers when I want to keep something in mind but not have it GC'd. 20:38:57 err, but not prevent it from being GC'd 20:39:05 *sykopomp* has the flu and can no longer think. 20:39:06 of course you need to actually run the GC to break the wewakrefs to make that assertion 20:39:29 if you kept them in a separate package, you could iterate through its symbols and call makunbound on them all 20:40:00 I don't want weak refs, I just want to ensure that the program's state is wiped clean without restarting the lisp environment 20:40:36 so why does it matter if the symbols remain? 20:41:01 if you make a new package, it will have new symbols 20:41:11 foom: I don't care about the symbols, just the binding 20:42:25 milanj [n=milan@79.101.137.248] has joined #lisp 20:42:27 dlowe: The home-package is implementation-dependent, the symbols as such live on, though. 20:44:19 Ok, I think it'd work fine to keep the state in another package and then call makunbound one every symbol in the package. Thanks 20:45:34 plutonas [n=plutonas@c-83-233-152-13.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 20:45:49 guys is there any computational geometry library for lisp? 20:45:59 as an additional safety check, I can check every symbol to make sure it IS bound after the program's re-initialization 20:46:57 wouldn't have to use a package for this, but it's convenient. 20:47:40 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:01 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 20:52:57 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:42 no-one knows if there is a cg library in lisp? i don't seem to find anything in cliki, not with the first look at least 20:58:04 cg? You mean like OpenGL? 20:58:11 or glade? 20:58:26 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-47-203.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:28 computational geometry 20:58:38 like cgal in c++ http://www.cgal.org/ 20:58:44 Hello all. 20:58:46 urk. I don't know. 20:58:52 nyef: hey nyef! How's it going? 20:58:52 (this is supposedly the best, but any simpler one would be good also) 20:59:00 Mostly okay. 20:59:31 I realized this afternoon what a workable approach to proving that a compiler transform is correct might be. 21:01:14 *sykopomp* doesn't understand at all :( 21:07:49 nyef: how? 21:08:17 pkhuong: It's largely in checking the effects on the underlying data representation. 21:08:36 Integers, for example, are a fixnum, with such-and-such layout, or a bignum, with such-and-such other layout. 21:09:25 So, a two-arg-+, (fixnum fixnum) => integer transform has a known range of inputs. 21:09:28 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FFA3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:10:19 ir1->ir2 transform? 21:10:29 IR2->ASM transform. 21:11:23 So you know you have two fixnums as input, and you have some string of asm instructions that represent the transformed code. 21:11:55 right 21:11:58 And each instruction is basically a function with known behavior. 21:13:04 So you can annotate the control flow through each path through the transformed code with its behavior, building a state model of the inputs. 21:13:17 Of course, that'll be very approximative. That's also a lot of metadata. 21:14:10 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 21:14:11 dima2001 [n=dima2001@MOTx6pt3.swm.uni-mannheim.de] has joined #lisp 21:14:15 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:14:59 Approximative? I dunno, maybe for some things. 21:15:31 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:15:49 lea dst, src*8. Is that a multiplication or a fixnumization? 21:16:06 Is that a relevant thing to ask? 21:16:28 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:17:04 LEA is an instruction that operates in terms of bit patterns. 21:18:56 So you have some known state about it. When it executes, you know that dst is a bitfield (byte 29 3) of (byte 29 0) from src and (byte 3 0) of literal 0. 21:19:37 You also know that the flags are unaffected. 21:21:14 If this is move-to-fixnum for an unboxed signed integer of logically less than 29 bits (even though it's 32 bits in the machine), you check to see if dst matches the pattern for a fixnum of the desired range. 21:23:05 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:38 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:24:30 josemanuel [n=josemanu@168.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:24:37 benu484 [n=user@atlaswireless.nomads.utk.edu] has joined #lisp 21:25:12 Anyway, it's an idea, and I don't know what, if anything, I'm going to do with it. 21:25:20 Is there any way to tell how many arguments an arbitrary function takes in common lisp? 21:26:05 benu484: Not portably. What do you need it for? 21:26:22 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp100.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 21:26:42 just dicking around with an rpn calculator. 21:27:43 benu484: What implementation do you use? 21:27:46 sbcl 21:28:29 benu484: then SB-INTROSPECT:FUNCTION-LAMBDA-LIST (or SB-INTROSPECT:FUNCTION-ARGLIST if you're on a not-so-recent sbcl version) 21:29:03 ok, thanks. 21:32:26 -!- benu484 [n=user@atlaswireless.nomads.utk.edu] has left #lisp 21:33:17 ehird [n=ehird@208.78.103.223] has joined #lisp 21:33:51 nimalan [n=nimalan@128.189.250.5] has joined #lisp 21:34:20 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.234.157] has joined #lisp 21:35:06 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 21:35:06 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:14 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb53d6.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 21:37:35 gensym [n=jeffober@216-111-89-65.dia.static.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:59 -!- azanar [n=azanar@dsl231-050-036.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [] 21:39:37 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb53d6.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:41:34 -!- gensym [n=jeffober@216-111-89-65.dia.static.qwest.net] has left #lisp 21:42:09 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@81.193.34.180] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:33 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:19 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:46:33 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-135-149.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 21:49:39 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:52:27 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@128.189.250.5] has quit [] 21:53:42 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp100.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:53:50 KalifG` [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:53:56 anyone here familiar with computational geometry? 21:55:02 I have a book on it here on my desk, but I haven't read it yet 21:55:11 plutonas: Didn't you ask that earlier, or were you asking about existing software? 21:56:13 before i asked about an existing library 21:56:41 now i'm asking because i'm not very familiar with numerical errors by lisp, and was wondering how they would affect robustness of geometrical algorithms 21:56:57 (if there was a library taking care of that i wouldn't need to ask of course :)) 21:57:12 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["Reboot!"] 21:57:30 plutonas: floating point arithmetic hasn't been language dependent for decades. 21:57:50 rodge [n=roderic@pinball.ccs.neu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:57:55 pkhuong: sure 21:58:04 -!- dj_ [n=chatzill@206-248-129-216.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:10 i probably didn't state it well 21:58:38 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-137.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:39 thing is for example i would like to do lets say 50 geometrical calculations that end up in three lines passing through the same point for example 21:59:18 but there will be small errors in all the computations so my code might decide that the lines don't pass through the same point 21:59:22 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-151-208.netcologne.de] has quit ["leaving"] 21:59:37 does lisp offer something that could help me deal with that? or how would you do it? 22:00:37 I would do it in lisp as in any other language and implement a good algorithm someone smarter than me has cooked up. I don't see how this is lisp-specific. 22:00:38 plutonas: Rationals? 22:01:16 the algorithm doesn't handle rounding errors 22:01:22 or however they are called 22:01:36 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb53d6.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:01:41 find one that does. 22:01:55 pkhuong: i don't think you understood the problem 22:02:32 plutonas, you can do your calculations with exact arithmetic, or you can use algorithms that minimize rounding error. This is true as much in Lisp as in any other language; in other words, it has to do with the algorithms, not the language you express them in. 22:03:54 of course the algorithm can reduce rounding errors 22:04:14 just a sec will try coming up with an example algorithm 22:04:51 -!- KalifG [n=user@166.128.250.26] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:05:12 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:05:46 -!- Cryovat [i=isis@akuma.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:09:23 hm, i read a bit on cgal how they handle robustness, optimase the low-level-algorithms and use exact arithmetic when this is not possible, which they claim produces good results, like 25% overhead in delauny triangulations.... 22:09:29 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 22:09:44 thanks anyways, but i'd be glad if someone could tell me whether such a type of library exists in lisp 22:09:47 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-74-112.w81-53.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:09:49 poet_ [n=poet@vpn3-145194.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 22:09:56 exact arith would be things like rationals (which exist) 22:10:51 why does this result in infinate recursion?: http://paste.lisp.org/display/76219 22:11:21 poet_: What do you think does &REST do? 22:11:48 tcr: I have no idea, I just copied it from the list method signature in my lisp reference. I'll look it up 22:12:21 Learning from a reference book is not a good idea 22:13:18 tcr: it's not really, I was refering to the appendix in the back of ANSI Common Lisp 22:13:19 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-151-208.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:13:27 Cryovat [i=isis@akuma.no] has joined #lisp 22:14:20 ah, so the correct way to do this is to use apply 22:14:35 reading too much about programming makes you dumb :). I've experienced it. 22:15:07 the correct way is not to use &rest 22:15:10 at least it doesn't help if you don't program. But why writing this here??? 22:15:18 poet_: Another way would be (defun my-list (&rest args) (copy-list args)) 22:15:31 stassats`: It's an implementation of LIST. 22:16:07 tcr: agreed that copy-list is the easiest way, but I'm trying to define list in terms of car and cdr 22:16:08 oh, i see 22:16:13 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:16:24 poet_: Write COPY-LIST in terms of CAR and CDR 22:16:49 poet_: "Practical Common Lisp" is a cure to this ideas :) 22:16:52 why copy list then? 22:17:40 the exercise I'm doing is asking me to think about what Lisp would look like if car and cdr were switched. So I'm defining common functions using them and then reversing it 22:17:43 stassats`: LIST is supposed to return a fresh list, &rest lists may be shared 22:20:02 tcr: actually I'm still not sure why my original implementation goes into infinate recurision. Are changes to the rest variable not persistant? 22:20:57 (endp '(())) => nil 22:21:44 so if I call (old-list 'a 'b) the args list is (a b nil) ? 22:22:05 b 22:22:13 sorry, wrong window 22:22:36 -!- patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [] 22:22:39 clhs trace 22:22:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tracec.htm 22:22:53 mega1: Still here? 22:24:48 uh how do I killa function call in slime 22:24:58 C-c C-c 22:26:07 oh duh 22:27:20 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@168.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:27:50 -!- KalifG` [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:04 alright so I understand why the function recurses infinetly. But now my question is, how could I handle a situation where someone calls (old-list 'nil). It should return (nil), but then what would my base case be? 22:28:41 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host68-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 22:32:17 azanar [n=azanar@edm1a.mavericklabel.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:08 -!- poet_ [n=poet@vpn3-145194.near.uiuc.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 22:33:22 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 22:35:03 What's a good lisp editor that does not depend on an implementation (like slime/sbcl). it should just help me with indentation and highlighting and things like that. 22:35:09 (for linux, gnome) 22:35:20 slime 22:35:21 Ponon: emacs + slime 22:35:26 Ponon: Emacs + SLIME 22:35:27 ... 22:35:44 You will hear nothing else here :D 22:35:55 doesn't slime depend on sbcl? 22:36:01 no 22:36:05 no 22:36:10 ok 22:37:28 slime is an emacs mode 22:37:42 you can bind it to many different lisp engines. 22:38:20 If you really don't want your editor to integrate with a running lisp (a rare thing), then just using emacs should suffice. 22:38:30 stassats`: Are all the slime-inspector's features available on all implementations?... 22:39:02 sykopomp: not all slime's features are available even on sbcl 22:39:28 sykopomp: the inspector is pretty much portable across implementation that do have a MOP 22:43:42 how can one decide when it is good to uses object oriented programming and when not? 22:44:19 KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has joined #lisp 22:44:49 plutonas: Depends on the problem, and how comfortable you are with OOP ;p 22:45:19 -!- deego [n=user@74.255.63.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:45:20 some people for example avoid OOP as much as possible 22:45:52 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.234.157] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:46:19 and some people become so obsessed with it that they insist on sticking to it no matter what, and praising design patterns meant to get around the obvious flaws of being in a "pure" oop environment (*cough*java*cough*) 22:46:36 i'm not very comfortable, but i mean how does one determine a problem well suited for oop 22:46:40 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-173-58-94-2.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:46:49 plutonas: by trial and error? 22:46:57 ajcc [n=ajcc@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 22:47:18 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-23-190-183.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:47:25 plutonas: again, it depends on the problem and how comfortable you are with OOP. If you're comfortable enough with it, you'll be more aware of how you can use it. Ditto for pure FP ;) 22:47:44 s/pure FP/functional-style code/ 22:47:54 i'm not very comfortable with it, much less than i am with fp 22:48:20 plutonas, for a given problem/codebase choose which gives the cleaner / shorter / more beautiful / more easily extendible /etc code (pick all those that apply) 22:48:20 it might be interesting to just play with it, then and learn how it works. 22:48:27 but anyways, i'm asking about the problems beeing suited or not to oop without respect to the programmer 22:48:32 plutonas: then probably you are better off with fp. Though defgeneric/defmethod probably won't hurt :) 22:50:01 OOP is often perceived as being a particularly nice way to write clear, extensible code, and it generally also seems to appeal more to 'common sense' than any sort of mathematical rigour :P 22:50:17 OOP is a good choice for writing CLIM apps ;) 22:50:42 oh yeah. OOP is historically pretty popular for GUi programming. 22:50:42 for writing clim itself 22:51:01 -!- jao [n=jao@252.Red-79-155-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:51:33 The-Kenn1 [n=moritz@p5087CA64.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:37 -!- Ponon [n=no@p4FD3CF2C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 22:51:48 -!- The-Kenn1 [n=moritz@p5087CA64.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:51:56 also, if you like fp, then you will probaly like CLOS better than other OOP styles 22:52:18 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087CA64.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["I am Locutus of Borg! You will assist us!"] 22:52:19 plutonas: It is a bit hard to come up with example things just out of the blue though. One really needs to have some grasp of OO and alternatives, and what the general problem one is trying to solve is.. and kinda figure out what fits. 22:52:38 plutonas: Also hello! 22:52:50 i see, the example between mathematical rigor and common sense, was good 22:53:02 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 22:53:07 and hello schme 22:53:10 how are things? 22:53:27 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-23-190-183.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:44 Apart from my busted shoulder preventing me from benching, and the lack of lisp code written this month, all is very well :) 22:54:14 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087CA64.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:53 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has joined #lisp 22:54:55 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-23-190-183.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:54:57 plutonas: It's a tricky question with the oo. How do you decide if fp is a good way to go for a specific problem? 22:55:30 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.168] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:55:51 hm, a problem that is closer to mathematics perhaps 22:56:06 although all programming is more or less related 22:56:08 dunno 22:56:29 I dunno either really. I think I go by gut feeling :) 22:56:44 Then when it fails completly I rewrite it all ;) 22:57:08 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087CA64.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:57:19 the reason it's important to take into account the specific problem is that OOP and FP are both considered to be general-purpose paradigms, but they might be particularly suited to a critical part of the problem. 22:57:26 why don't write in both? 22:57:49 stassats`: that's a good point, particularly because the distinction in Lisp is almost not there ;) 22:58:20 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087CA64.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:43 Or just avoid both ;) 22:59:17 write one big main function with loops and gotos 22:59:38 stassats`: clearly, the one true answer is to use call/cc for everything. 22:59:40 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:59:42 NOW we're talking. 22:59:50 stassats`: "That's too many GO tags, RG!" 23:00:17 sykopomp, aka goto :P 23:00:47 nyef: gcc could have "Don't enable-single-host when using gambit-c" ;) 23:00:56 dcrawford: goto with one of these on it http://www.sxc.hu/pic/m/s/sc/scol22/851577_groucho_glasses_1.jpg 23:00:56 dcrawford: huh? 23:01:26 -!- Mannerisky [n=Manneris@24-117-137-23.cpe.cableone.net] has left #lisp 23:02:30 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70dafc.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:03:32 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:36 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [] 23:04:50 -!- ehird [n=ehird@208.78.103.223] has left #lisp 23:05:48 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:07:44 I wonder when file-info-name is :stream 23:10:55 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:21 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslc-082-082-054-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:29 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 23:16:40 I sometimes wish there was a cond that worked like C's switch, i.e. where all clauses are run through unless you jump out of one explicitly 23:17:29 It wouldn't be hard to build one, if you really needed it. 23:17:34 hmm COND could have an implicit tagbody 23:17:37 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 23:18:27 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:43 am i missing something, or enriched arglist display is broken in current slime? 23:19:08 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-158-110.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 23:19:32 It works for me. I wouldn't surprise though if there were some bugs after my work today 23:21:03 it doesn't seem to work for me 2009-02-17 slime, w-o-f does show arguments for open, but make-instance doesn't show initargs of classes 23:21:08 -!- KalifG [n=user@bloc-18.isc.tamu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:21:39 I can reproduce that 23:23:55 well it doesn't work for me on the REPL, in .lisp buffer it does 23:25:06 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-151-208.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:26:26 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@163.Red-88-9-114.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:28:19 and (defmacro foo ((foo . args))) shows just (foo (foo)) 23:28:56 Yes I don't think autodoc can deal with dot-style rest lists 23:31:50 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-224-126.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 23:32:49 is that possible, that ,l some-system would open some files in emacs? 23:32:56 I do not know why autodoc does not work for you on 02-17 23:33:09 Yes it does if the loading produced compiler-notes 23:33:18 the files are opened so the offending forms are highlighted 23:34:05 -!- ajcc [n=ajcc@81-234-211-246-no118.tbcn.telia.com] has quit ["leaving"] 23:35:28 whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa91] has joined #lisp 23:36:04 "(make-instance 'type-error" doesn't work, while "(make-instance 'type-error) does 23:36:21 s/)/)"/ 23:36:36 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:36:44 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:52 on -17? 23:36:56 yep 23:37:27 try on HEAD. I'll fix the not-workingness in the REPL later, or more likely tomorrow. 23:39:02 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:40:21 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:42:48 the same on head 23:43:23 and in files too, but i have paredit there, so it's not noticeable 23:43:48 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:44:07 Right 23:45:59 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:46:17 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 23:46:35 -!- dima2001 [n=dima2001@MOTx6pt3.swm.uni-mannheim.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:46:43 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [] 23:47:57 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.168] has joined #lisp 23:51:45 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:51:49 I know what's the error. But I've spotted something else which I have to think about a bit more for which I'm too tired right now. 23:53:06 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless108.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:53:44 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A750.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:54:01 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@67.201.133.74] has joined #lisp 23:54:01 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:57:58 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:58:06 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 23:58:30 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"]