00:03:26 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:04:01 -!- Ttech [n=ttech@botters/staff/ttech] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:05:56 Lou__ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has joined #lisp 00:07:00 -!- dtulig [n=dtulig@cpe-72-179-46-14.austin.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 00:15:57 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:04 greetings! 00:19:48 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 00:26:43 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-68-53-57-241.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:27:08 this is nice http://marijn.haverbeke.nl/codemirror/story.html 00:33:41 -!- rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:33:59 parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-46-146.sqpk.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:46 -!- deego [n=user@74.255.63.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36:29 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-26-122.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [] 00:40:11 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 00:43:37 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-46-146.sqpk.az.commspeed.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:45:44 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:27 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:57:15 Ttech [n=ttech@botters/staff/ttech] has joined #lisp 00:57:57 -!- dcjackson [n=dcj@nat02.service.sv2.tellme.com] has quit [] 00:59:01 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:00:14 HG` [n=wells@222-155-53-2.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:04:33 -!- schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:07:44 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:13:55 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:51 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:20:08 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:20:53 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087CFC8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:21:05 rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:21:12 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087CFC8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:27 shizzy0 [n=shane@c-76-105-6-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:16 joha1 [n=johan@fw1.ngigroup.com] has joined #lisp 01:23:37 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 01:24:48 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-63-130.netcologne.de] has quit [] 01:25:56 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [] 01:26:30 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 01:26:47 pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167219208.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:13 anyone know where i can download a free copy of LispWorks? 01:27:44 if by "free" you mean "pirated", then no. 01:27:48 at lispworks.com 01:28:06 it costs like $1000 or something 01:28:19 so pay it, or use the personal edition 01:28:37 or use one of the free implementations, like ccl or sbcl. 01:29:05 im finding sbcl not so nice 01:29:23 ill guess ill try out the free lispworks and see if it's any good 01:31:26 pokey19: On windows you can use Corman CL, which is not so expensive, but not as good as LW or ACL 01:32:10 p_l: i have an apple. 01:33:09 pokey19: have you tried CCL, then? 01:33:42 no, i've never even used CL, just scheme awhile ago 01:35:03 -!- HG` [n=wells@222-155-53-2.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:35:06 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A916.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:36:16 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 01:36:21 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-35-233.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:36:40 pokey19: http://www.clozure.com/clozurecl.html 01:36:48 thanks housel 01:37:21 so, sbcl is not nice because you use it without slime 01:39:44 i just dont want to have to use an ide... i just want something like lc program.lisp -o program ; ./program 01:40:02 pokey19: that's not how CL works. 01:40:19 (or Scheme either, for that matter) 01:40:36 housel: Certain Schemes allow for that 01:40:37 i thought the scheme box type thing was just because it was for learning 01:40:41 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087CFC8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:41:47 pokey19: Using SBCL without some kind of development environment, be it SLIME, CUSP, or even something like ABLE, is bound to be a horrible experience, imo. 01:42:12 pokey19: On Lisp, you usually "dump the image" instead of running a compiler over files 01:42:29 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-88-245.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:42:41 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:44:19 pokey19: There are some implementations though that allow you generate files that are then compiled by other compilers. For CL, there's ECL, for Scheme, I know at least of Chicken and MzScheme (haven't used other) 01:44:58 ok. at least i can stop looking for the implementation of lisp that behaves like C... 01:45:14 that's probably the most important step, yes. 01:45:31 pokey19: why don't you give slime a shot, work with it for a little bit, and see how you feel after that? :) 01:45:46 you need to use emacs, dont you? 01:45:55 that's what slime is for, yes. 01:46:15 pokey19: There are some other interfaces that reuse parts of SLIME in other editors/environments 01:46:25 i bet using C with an IDE will be good too 01:46:30 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp7-197.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:47:00 i use xcode just for the text coloring, line filling, etc 01:47:01 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-65.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:47:16 my condolences 01:47:18 but never really get into the features 01:47:56 stassats: C is best coded with an editor, build system and good cross-reference mechanism. I don't see a need for an IDE, other than Unix :) 01:48:02 damnit, im going to have to learn emacs, it's very annoying on apple keyboards... oh well 01:48:03 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@rrcs-208-125-208-82.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 01:48:14 -!- Ttech [n=ttech@botters/staff/ttech] has quit ["Ttech flies into the sunset..."] 01:48:41 p_l: worse is better, i know 01:48:44 pokey19: you'll live, I'm sure 01:48:45 pokey19: After having seen some of the new apple keyboards, I concluded that using them is annoying in itself 01:48:50 pokey19: A basic Cocoa-based IDE comes with Clozure CL, if you feel like trying it. 01:48:58 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.107] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:48:59 okay. so SCBL with slime in emacs... 01:49:06 http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/7kta6/best_way_to_start_lisp_on_os_x_leopard/1oi7 01:49:12 that that link tell me all i need to know? 01:49:21 oh wait, that's may be mac specific... 01:49:37 stassats: I don't give a damn about that one... It's just that I never found a need for an IDE for _C_ , if the environment can fulfill all the needs already 01:50:04 p_l: good for you 01:50:15 hm. Someone should update that page. 01:50:40 pokey19: the slime setup page is missing something. 01:50:57 stassats: Mind you, coding in Java or C# (though this one is easier) without an IDE is... >_> 01:51:01 -!- shizzy0 [n=shane@c-76-105-6-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:51:13 put (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) instead of just (slime-setup) in your .emacs 01:51:27 otherwise, the instructions seem okay 01:52:11 sykopomp - great, thanks for the help. Others as well 01:52:28 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-26-78.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:52:40 (the difference in temperment between the different programming language chat rooms is pretty amazing btw... lol) 01:53:00 I've noticed that much, but what do you mean in this case? 01:53:28 does it relate to language popularity? 01:54:23 ah, maybe here would be analoguous to a library with soft chatter ...and the java room to... i dont know, crackheads lining up for food or something 01:54:54 chatter not always so soft here pokey19 01:55:15 anyways, i need to go... i'll get started on the lisp tomorrow... hope it goes well. bue 01:55:17 bye 01:55:18 never visited the java rooms though, never felt the inclination 01:55:25 -!- pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167219208.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [] 01:55:31 rvirding: ##java is painful. 01:55:55 then I have done the right thing :-) 01:56:33 my guess would be that java is painful itself 01:56:46 dcjackson [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro.clark-communications.com] has joined #lisp 01:57:11 that is also true 01:58:12 yes, but funnily they don't think so 01:58:27 good for them 01:59:10 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:59:14 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-35-233.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:01:29 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 02:02:17 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:02:30 anyways, I was looking through PLT scheme for the first time last night, and was pretty impressed by it, overall. I wonder if it's because they get more funding than the average CL implementation, or if it has something to do with a bigger, more active community or something. 02:03:10 or maybe that's just the impression they give off since they have so much included and documented right on the site, as opposed to having something like cliki :) 02:04:35 *stassats* liked it prior 4.0 version, then it became too bloated for me, so there was no point in using it instead of CL 02:06:21 people seem pretty displeased about the whole r6rs thing, although I have trouble caring about that little war. 02:07:08 Is it the extensible type system? :) 02:07:34 mostly, it's the impression of how neatly packaged and stable it seems to be 02:07:54 as opposed to having to crawl the interwebs for the latest unstable cvs version of a library that only happens to work on a single operating system. 02:08:09 That must be annoying. 02:08:49 so is having 4 different methods of library installation (manual, mudballs, asdf-install, clbuild) 02:08:59 and using all of them for different things 02:09:00 :| 02:10:02 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-65.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:12:05 having a nice landing page, centralised info repository and simple but working library installation system gives tons of advantage... 02:12:48 I bet they also get funding from various educational institutions ;) 02:12:59 sykopomp: Possibly 02:13:40 they do seem particularly willing to inflate things way past the scheme standard -- not like it can be helped. 02:14:44 sykopomp: Well, Scheme was from the beginning "simple language, define the rest yourself" kind of thing :) 02:15:01 yes :) 02:15:26 cl has its gaps, though. I hope they keep getting filled in as time goes on. 02:16:03 Not since the dark ages has a CL gap been filled :) 02:16:11 everything is not perfect 02:16:28 of course not. I love CL ;) 02:16:52 which is why it would be nice to help fill in those gaps when possible. Nothing wrong with having better tools, eh? 02:17:16 sure 02:19:19 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.198.192] has joined #lisp 02:22:50 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B787.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:24:34 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:25:44 on the bright side, it's really amazing how nice the SBCL compiler seems to be, although I wouldn't know besides being able to tell how fast it is ^_^; 02:26:16 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:32 -!- joha1 [n=johan@fw1.ngigroup.com] has left #lisp 02:29:47 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [] 02:29:57 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:12 sykopomp: The SBCL definitely has cool features, but compilation speed isn't exactly at the top of the list...maybe you mean speed of compiled code. 02:34:18 joha1 [n=johan@fw1.ngigroup.com] has joined #lisp 02:34:43 i like ccl for its compilation speed / compiled code efficiency ratio 02:36:24 rme: I meant compiled code speed. 02:37:39 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:33 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.28] has joined #lisp 02:44:38 -!- dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:45:10 -!- tetha [n=hk@pD9EE72CC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:49:29 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:51:20 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:56:30 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-4fa63de254a59605] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:59:32 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:05:07 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2FE25.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:38 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h252n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:07:45 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:10:40 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-23-190-183.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:13 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2FDC9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:11:18 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 03:14:05 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:17 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A01E7.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:14:25 I recall someone talking about creating GUIs through Qt4/Webkit querying hunchentoot running in the same lisp process? :) 03:14:43 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:55 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:45 nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:37 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:18:38 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 03:20:35 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 03:22:20 sulo [n=sulo@p57B4B56C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:23:29 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:23:55 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:24:03 Cowmoo` [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:50 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.63.7] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:25:57 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.60.150] has joined #lisp 03:28:02 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:30:58 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:31:51 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 03:34:49 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 03:35:28 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:28 Jiaji [n=chatzill@121.77.153.212] has joined #lisp 03:38:04 -!- Jiaji [n=chatzill@121.77.153.212] has left #lisp 03:39:29 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:39:51 KalifG [n=user@32.176.162.209] has joined #lisp 03:43:00 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:48:33 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:52:18 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:23 Lispster [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:43 hi, is there a faster mechanism for interning strings than calling intern 03:52:54 i have like... a bajillion strings to intern :( 03:53:09 Try turning the crank on your CPU faster. 03:53:25 my arms hurt already ;( 03:53:34 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-65.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:53:35 Why do you have a lot of symbols to intern? 03:53:49 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-65.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:54:06 hrmn... i have all these strings to convert into symbols, changing data from one format to another 03:54:11 Why? 03:54:34 felideon pasted "multiple-value-bind" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76127 03:55:24 hrmn, well, basically they are from signal names in verilog modules, where a wire can have a width... so i have a wire named "foo" and it has width 100... and i need to create foo[0], foo[1], ..., foo[100] from it, for our symbolic simulator 03:55:56 i can't really change the simulator and it expects wire names to be symbols 03:56:13 since I'm not using all those variables that are returned from decode-universal-time, I'm getting a style warning 03:56:30 felideon, use (DECLARE (IGNORE ...)) to declare that you intend to ignore some variables. 03:56:34 is there a way I can choose what variables to bind to? 03:56:45 ah 03:57:02 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:57:22 Lispster: so... why are you faking arrays with symbols? 03:57:28 felideon: and you can leave off the ones at the end. 03:57:40 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:34 rme: cool. thanks. 03:58:39 Riastradh: I'll try that, thx. 03:58:53 i guess the simulator is simpler because it only deals with variables 04:00:17 patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:21 Lispster: if you have wire [msb:lsb] foo; you can extract msb, lsb, and the signal name with a regexp and loop from msb downto lsb, constructing and interning single-bit signals within the loop body 04:05:11 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:05:14 right, so i do something along the lines of, (intern (concatenate 'string name "[" (nat-to-string index) "]")) at each iteration 04:05:23 i was just wondering if there's any more sophisticated mechanism for interning a bunch of strings 04:06:10 you can not intern them. 04:06:22 heh, fair enough 04:06:30 Why do you need interned symbols? 04:06:42 it's just what the simulator expects, and the simulator is too hard to change 04:06:51 the simulator expects *interned* symbols? 04:07:14 it expects symbols, are there non-interned symbols? 04:07:30 you see now the depths of the incompetence you are working with :) 04:08:27 '#:foo for example is a literal, non-interned symbol 04:08:58 If you just need a symbol, you can use MAKE-SYMBOL 04:10:40 ah interesting 04:10:50 (eq (make-symbol "foo") (make-symbol "foo")) --> nil 04:11:16 Consider what 'intern'ing means. 04:11:20 gusl [n=gusl@128.189.187.234] has joined #lisp 04:12:25 robsynnot [n=irchon@89.100.144.110] has joined #lisp 04:12:34 -!- robsynnot [n=irchon@89.100.144.110] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:17:49 -!- azanar [n=azanar@edm1a.mavericklabel.com] has quit [] 04:18:08 Vichfret [n=Vicfred@189.228.56.149] has joined #lisp 04:18:58 -!- Vichfret [n=Vicfred@189.228.56.149] has quit [Client Quit] 04:21:16 arquebus [i=sfd@189.221.2.241] has joined #lisp 04:21:18 -!- KalifG [n=user@32.176.162.209] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:21:57 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p54BCD511.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 04:22:46 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:07 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-23-190-183.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 04:26:15 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@64-46-16-106.dyn.novuscom.net] has quit [] 04:28:43 -!- Lou__ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:33:10 -!- arquebus [i=sfd@189.221.2.241] has left #lisp 04:38:10 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.198.192] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:38:18 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:38:47 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:40:30 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-81-33.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:42:37 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:31 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.161.96] has joined #lisp 04:55:20 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-99-23-190-183.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:10 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-88-245.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:00:54 -!- gusl [n=gusl@128.189.187.234] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:03:00 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@206.167.180.24] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:03:47 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:09:12 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 05:16:18 felideon pasted "conditional format list" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76130 05:16:29 azanar [n=azanar@c-67-183-123-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:42 how can I conditionally format a list to display None if empty or print the items if non-empty? 05:18:34 would i just have to put two (format t ...) in a cond? 05:18:54 never 05:19:16 -!- dmead_home is now known as dmead 05:21:05 never what 05:21:15 I'd just get rid of the format conditional, just use ~{...~}, and do something like (or list '("None")) for the argument 05:21:40 ah 05:22:02 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:22:22 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:23:23 -!- dmead [n=dan@pool-98-114-248-96.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:23:28 that works. thanks 05:23:31 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [No route to host] 05:24:10 you can fix the conditional too, but I don't know the right format trick off the top of my head to make it preserve the argument instead of discarding it after the test 05:32:02 oh I see. maybe since I'm using the ~:[nil;t] trick then 05:34:06 -!- brandelune [n=suzume@pl395.nas932.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [] 05:35:27 maybe with ~#[...~] but i dont really understand how to use that. 05:35:28 ohwell 05:36:23 lboard [n=lboard@122.165.28.253] has joined #lisp 05:36:40 -!- beach``` is now known as beach 05:36:59 Good morning. 05:37:16 mornin' beach 05:37:23 -!- joha1 [n=johan@fw1.ngigroup.com] has left #lisp 05:40:45 Good Morning 05:43:42 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:44:12 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:53:49 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [] 05:55:02 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-96-236-187-170.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:55:55 karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has joined #lisp 06:20:39 pmhaddad [n=pmhaddad@24-247-41-171.dhcp.mrqt.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:22:19 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 06:23:07 -!- Cowmoo` [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-214-24.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:23:58 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:24:49 arakthor [n=ar@engg-gw.engglab.ualberta.ca] has joined #lisp 06:25:22 -!- xinming_ is now known as xinming 06:25:29 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:25:46 I have the following line : (funcall (lambda (f1 arg1) (f2 arg2)) (f3 arg3)) 06:26:10 however, when it is called, the list interpreter says there are too few arguments for lambda 06:26:34 as an example, (f1 arg1) (f2 arg2) and (f3 arg3) return (X) (* X X) and 2 respectively 06:26:57 so, to my knowledge, this follows the format for creating and calling a lambda function 06:27:04 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:27:06 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:27:27 does anyone have an idea as to why it may not work? 06:27:45 I can only guess at what you really mean, but it looks like you do not have an arglist in your lambda 06:28:20 well, the (f1 arg1) returns the argument list, as in my example: (X) or (X Y Z) or whatever right 06:28:23 arakthor, you wrote (FUNCALL (F3 ARG3)), which has the effect of passing one argument to . For , you wrote (LAMBDA (F1 ARG1) (F2 ARG2)), which yields a function that requires two arguments. 06:28:32 hello 06:28:46 CrazyEddy [n=redresse@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 06:28:53 Inside the body of the lambda, the first argument is referred to by the name F1, and the second argument is referred to by the name ARG1. 06:28:53 ah. you can't have it return an arglist. the arglist part of the lambda form is not evaluated 06:30:25 Riastradh, so inside (lambda (f1 arg1) (f2 arg2)) ==> (f1 arg1) are being interpreted as two variables instead of the function I want it to be? If this is the case then, how do I go about what I originally intended to do (that is, call have the result of (f1 arg1) end up inside the lambda call 06:30:29 lil drunk not gonna lie 06:30:33 ah 06:30:37 wrong window lol 06:31:07 arakthor, what's the problem you're really trying to solve, of which you believe this contrived example of F1's and ARG2's is a subproblem? 06:32:16 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 06:32:31 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:33:22 Hello 06:34:10 hello MrSpec 06:34:23 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 06:35:27 Riastradh, it's an example interpreter of an arbitrary language contrived for an assignemtn (I really hate asking this, but no one in my class is around right now) 06:35:46 that part it meant to call a user function that is passed into the interpreter 06:35:47 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:37:21 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 06:42:25 So what's the point of the lambda? Just call the function you were passed! 06:44:10 basically, but because the functions can be nested and not have variables bound right away, I want to have something that will work like a lambda function (where the arguments get passed in a later point in execution) 06:45:31 beach: ever had the wild earth pinot from central otago? 06:45:38 and evening everyone 06:45:53 slyrus: No, but it sounds exciting! 06:46:40 arakthor: I am afraid you are not making much sense. 06:46:44 arakthor: so do you want (lambda (arg1 arg2 arg3) (f1 arg1) (f2 arg2) (f3 arg3)) ? 06:47:07 rme, nope 06:47:15 beach, sorry. 06:47:29 (f1 arg1) returns a list of argument variables 06:47:47 (f2 arg2) returns a body function 06:48:38 I don't think using (lambda will work now), despite my lack of explanation, your responses have been very helpful 06:48:51 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has quit [] 06:48:58 thanks for trying, it's helped me :) 06:53:03 adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 06:56:25 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 06:57:26 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:59:26 ti1 [n=tl@89-180-217-204.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 07:00:41 -!- tib [n=tl@89-180-185-10.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:04:41 arakthor: I suspect that part of your problem is that you are mixing up terminology in your langauge and Lisp terminology. That, in combination with us now knowing your language makes it hard to understand. 07:05:07 beach, I agree with that assessment 07:05:31 but I've figured how and what I actually need to do 07:05:53 so, even if I'm not straight with the language here, I've got what I need to work on it 07:06:44 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:12:42 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.161.96] has quit [] 07:13:29 mega1 [n=mega@3e70dafc.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:17:56 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:29 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:21:04 dys`` [n=andreas@p5B314373.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:30 -!- dys`` is now known as dys 07:22:57 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:23:25 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 07:26:42 -!- dys` [n=andreas@p5B313BE1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:27:43 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:29:34 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.28] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:32:38 benny [n=benny@i577A05A8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:33:30 shizzy0 [n=shane@c-76-105-6-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:37:43 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 07:42:08 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:44:38 -!- Foofie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:46:48 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-138-130.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:48:01 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-138-130.netcologne.de] has quit [Client Quit] 07:50:55 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-138-130.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:52:04 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:53:36 g'day 07:55:59 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:56:05 good morning 07:57:04 yes.. mornin' 08:00:21 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 08:00:21 08:00:21 -!- names: ccl-logbot dmiles_afk mvilleneuve cheatcountry mikesch ecraven ignas shizzy0 benny Jarvellis dys mega1 Krystof ti1 adityo MrSpec CrazyEddy manuel__ appletizer arakthor pmhaddad karvus lboard azanar saikat beach mrsolo patmaddox pstickne sellout Lispster aja Ginei_Morioka kejsaren sulo yangsx dialtone danlei yhara jlf` kpreid froog_ ace4016 dcjackson whuwxl eslick hyperboreean borism_ repnop Jasko Vicfred Adamant stassats fe[nl]ix jao jeremiah 08:00:21 -!- names: dmiles BrianRice r1nu- pierre_thierry cmm rme yango jfactor b4|hraban aunwork cracki hefner antgreen KingThomasV wgl authentic awayekos ehird xinming billstclair segv trebor_dki nxt Chrononaut ``Erik mikezor_ daniel m811 H4ns Zhivago yahooooo retupmoca pchrist sledge sjbach gz bdowning meingbg l4ndfo kleppari mornfall ia Jabberwockey jmbr Tordek Tristam tessier eno tltstc birdsbite wlr_ Draggor Lou_ bohanlon HimitsuNaiyou ejohnson PissedNumlock 08:00:21 -!- names: kidd1 acieroid foom malkia X-Scale hugod rey_ jlf froydnj flazz Patzy sysfault Necromas jajcloz dlowe mgr thijso dto cavelife^ p_l mishok13 schmx tic_ bfein_ cods Fade maskd mtd comex sad0ur mr_uggla_ huangjs rotty manic12_ bob_f blast_hardcheese sykopomp ilitirit AntiSpamMeta manuel_ slyrus nullman madnificent lichtblau mooglenorph wasabi__ specbot myrkraverk arbscht phadthai r0bby xan Buganini Aisling _death araujo joga kuhzoo mathrick Cel 08:00:21 -!- names: sepisultrum spacebat prip_ spiderbyte dfox maxote lnostdal sbahra technik Seb srcerer boyscared lemoinem pkhuong pitui` lyte Maddas Martinp23 jkantz archangelpetro SeveredCross kmkaplan poet Quadrescence l_a_m nasloc__ dostoyevsky felipe _dima_ peddie Adrinael tarbo ampleyfly rsynnott chii keithr poolio mle scode guenther__ Cryovat azuk` aking djkthx deepfire spiaggia Khisanth housel kg4qxk pragma_ pok Bucciarati cYmen dcrawford V-ille @antifuchs 08:00:21 -!- names: jsnell m4thrick fgtech vsync joast vcgomes eirik luis kefka easch @drewc omg911 herbieB cmatei lisppaste _3b Dazhbog @Xof koning_robot ianmcorvidae andrewy fnordus Arnar e271 z0d erg xristos Soulman qebab Riastradh turbo24prg ineiros Guest82189 koollman jrockway clog krappie albino johs plan9 delYsid rumbleca frodef Thas larstobi p8m joshe minion svaksha ltbarcly zbigniew mqt djinni` drforr 08:00:22 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 08:00:30 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:03:26 -!- m811 [n=user@234.191.191.90.dyn.estpak.ee] has quit [""If you put a million monkeys at a million keyboards, one of them will eventually write a Java program. The rest of them will] 08:04:54 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:08:31 v0|d [n=user@a.ns.core.gen.tr] has joined #lisp 08:09:35 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-22-66.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:12:22 so uhhh... BLOCK only accepts symbols. How do you create a block for a (SETF FOO) function, then? :-\ 08:12:45 assuming you want to return from that same function... 08:14:16 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-62-33.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:15:25 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:15:29 Doesn't the block get named FOO in that case? 08:15:49 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:15:52 yes, if you're the x3j13, you get to cheat. http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/glo_f.html#function_block_name 08:15:54 Or is that implementation-specific? I don't know. 08:16:19 You can always add your own block around the body of the function 08:16:40 :| that's really annoying. 08:16:42 Beket [n=stathis@ppp7-197.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:18:42 heh. Or I can just do ,(if (listp nam) (cadr name) name), although I have a feeling I might regret that. 08:18:45 *shrug* ah well. 08:18:54 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-1-218.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:20:40 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:20:54 one other thing -- there seems to be some sort of odd problem when asdf-loading some of the files I'm working on. Sometimes -- but not always -- I need to go back to one or two of the files and C-c C-k it in order to get some things to work. I'm not really sure where to even start, as far as solving this issue goes. 08:20:55 addled [n=adlirc@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 08:21:01 beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-105-168.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:23:17 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 08:23:23 -!- azanar [n=azanar@c-67-183-123-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:26:57 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-81-33.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:29:06 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:31:47 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-22-66.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:31:53 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:33:53 azanar [n=azanar@c-67-183-123-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:01 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:34:22 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-138-130.netcologne.de] has quit [] 08:36:06 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-62-33.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:39:38 -!- beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-1-218.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:41 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:43:10 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 08:43:15 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp7-197.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:44:48 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 08:45:21 -!- r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-68-56-155.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:46:20 r1nu- [n=debian~@ppp-94-68-15-137.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:46:34 Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has joined #lisp 08:50:02 Vichfret [n=Vicfred@189.228.56.149] has joined #lisp 08:50:17 Poundily [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:23 -!- Lispster [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:50:56 -!- Vicfred [n=Vicfred@189.228.56.149] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:51:10 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:51:15 Good morning. 08:52:16 Is there a way in Slime to just jump to a function definition other than typing out the function name in my current buffer and then doing M-.? Is there a way to just go into the mini-buffer and type some part of the function I am looking for? 08:52:50 saikat: M-. when you're not highlighting a function? 08:52:55 yeah 08:52:59 err, without the cursor on a function* 08:52:59 oh wait 08:53:05 saikat: yeah ;) 08:53:14 haha sorry i thought you were asking for clarification 08:53:21 silly me that works great, thanks! 08:53:24 M-x slime-edit-definition? 08:53:26 np 08:53:27 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 08:53:29 -!- beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-105-168.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:53:39 beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-16-52.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:54:03 oh, too late 08:54:08 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:56:18 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 08:57:47 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 08:59:02 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:00:18 myrkraverk` [n=johann@85-220-122-166.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 09:02:46 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslc-082-082-054-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:03:10 ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has joined #lisp 09:04:29 -!- Vichfret [n=Vicfred@189.228.56.149] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:05:39 -!- Poundily [n=jared@99-23-192-153.lightspeed.austtx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:06:28 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 09:08:39 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:09:04 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:15 toddoon [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:22 -!- beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-16-52.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:28 beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-107-164.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:18:23 could someone please kick beach```` for me? 09:20:03 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:04 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xof 09:20:14 -!- Xof [n=crhodes@158.223.51.79] has been kicked from #lisp 09:20:46 -!- Xof has set mode -o Xof 09:23:39 Thanks! 09:24:08 hello spiaggia 09:24:38 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-138-130.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:24:53 Hey mvilleneuve. What's up? 09:25:28 spiaggia: not much, unfortunately... Anything exciting on your side? 09:25:59 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:26:41 Well, the students are on winter vacation, so I have no teaching, but I am afraid I am frittering away this precious time by doing things like cleaning my office(s) rather than doing something more interesting, like hacking Lisp. 09:27:58 ah, but is cleaning your office going to give your more time for hacking later? 09:29:50 It might, but then it will be back to 15-minute increments, whereas this could have been a full week of concentration. 09:30:38 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA289.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:31:53 spiaggia: Easy to solve. Speech recognition software + wearable microphone that you shout sexps into while you clean. 09:31:56 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA462.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:31:59 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 09:32:32 good morning. 09:32:39 schmx: Never thought about that. Thanks for the hint. 09:32:44 hello H4ns 09:33:17 -!- schmx is now known as schme 09:36:37 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:37:16 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-164-62.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:39:38 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:43:56 Is there a way to override a function in an external package? I found a bug in an external package, and I want to fix the bug in a portal way. (I did report the bug, and it's been fixed in dev repo) 09:45:11 s/portal/portable/ 09:45:29 Or any portable way to fix a bug in an external package. 09:45:47 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.171.120] has joined #lisp 09:46:54 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.189.246] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:50:36 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-186-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:52:46 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.189.246] has joined #lisp 09:53:23 rdd [n=user@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:54:11 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-65.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:54:26 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-65.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:58:42 tomoyuki28jp: you just redefine the function. 09:59:06 good day ;) 09:59:13 hello trebor_dki 09:59:56 tomoyuki28jp: typically, you create a separate file containing (in-package :mumble) (defun better-definition (...) ...) and load it as part of your own code. 10:00:33 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 10:00:58 spiaggia: I forget to tell you it's un-exported function. Can I redefine like (defun package::func-name ())? 10:02:04 yes you can, but if you do what I suggested, it doesn't matter because you are in that package anyway. 10:03:08 spiaggia: oh, I just understand what you suggested. that's a nice way. thanks! 10:06:04 -!- azanar [n=azanar@c-67-183-123-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 10:06:34 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-116-19.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 10:12:30 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@83add0e6.funky.Uni-Osnabrueck.DE] has joined #lisp 10:14:43 -!- jao [n=jao@250.Red-79-155-245.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:16 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-133.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 10:19:40 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 10:20:47 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF09929.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:37 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [] 10:27:42 -!- schme [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:31:28 schme [n=schme@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:34:11 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 10:37:52 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:38:28 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 10:39:09 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 10:39:31 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:44:32 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:49:40 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 10:53:49 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 10:56:55 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-164-62.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:00:28 jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:13 psyllo [n=user@67-42-125-229.slkc.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:28 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:06:33 hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279441018.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:07:35 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:07:54 I am trying to use clsql to select an object from my postgres database, and syntax like (clsql:select [email] :from [person]) works, but syntax like (clsql:select 'person) gives me an error that "No source tables supplied to select statement." I have locally enabled the syntax. It seems like from http://clsql.b9.com/manual/csql-find.html that the second syntax should work - anyone have any ideas as to why it might not? 11:08:25 I guess I would like to, ideally, have clsql do the work of hydrating my object, rather than selecting all the columns and creating and object where I manually set all those columns 11:08:36 creating an object* 11:08:42 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 11:10:12 bbe [n=bbe@58.213.184.152] has joined #lisp 11:10:43 kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has joined #lisp 11:11:51 -!- nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:14:48 LostMonarch [n=roby@host68-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:16:01 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1176024142.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:18:47 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 11:18:49 Davidbrcz 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#lisp 13:52:43 I am a newbie to sbcl (and CL). It finished loading a project in half an hour. Is there a way to make it save the image so that it pre-loads it the next time? 13:53:21 yes: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Saving-a-Core-Image.html 13:53:47 Ah, yes, I saw this, sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die but it looked like it was for debugging. Thanks. 13:53:54 however, it would be faster without it too 13:54:27 compilation takes too much time 13:54:38 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:39 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-186-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:54:50 You mean, faster once I compile all the files? 13:54:52 and loading already compiled .fasls is faster 13:55:35 stassats: thanks 13:56:42 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1CA20.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:10 segv [n=mb@p4FC1D2E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:38 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 13:59:27 One more Q: What's the right way to provide a for parts or all of the project? Simply cons a new keyword to *features*? 13:59:30 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 13:59:41 s/provide /provide a feature 14:01:34 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:01:50 if you want to use features mechanism, then yes 14:01:54 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:02:02 Ah, I guess so, acl-compat dose this: (pushnew :acl-compat *features*) 14:02:41 AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has joined #lisp 14:02:43 deego: *features* is generally used mostly at compile and load time. 14:03:00 features mechanism is useful if you want to read different code depending on the presence of the feature 14:04:38 yasuto [n=yasuto@pon100-117.kcn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:04:41 Yes, I want to do that. Thanks, all of you. 14:05:29 I mean: I want the same code to check if the lisp is called from a dumped image or not.. If the latter, it should load the whole project.. 14:06:33 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-47-203.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:14 G'morning all. 14:07:14 well, you can do that with: sbcl --core project.core, and sbcl --eval '(load-project "project.lisp")' 14:07:14 nyef, memo from chandler: ping! (yes, this is a somewhat pointless memo...) 14:07:15 nyef, memo from chandler: 1.2GHz ARM development board w/512MB RAM for only $100 - could be a nice SBCL port platform: http://www.marvell.com/products/embedded_processors/developer/kirkwood/sheevaplug.jsp 14:07:55 -!- WarWeasle` [n=beerb@208.4.144.212] has quit ["My ideas may offend even myself."] 14:08:04 Is there a way to get a sub-array from a two-dimensional array? 14:08:37 beerb [n=beerb@208.4.144.212] has joined #lisp 14:08:41 nyef: an OLPC's wifi or a google phone would be a better (if more expensive) platform 14:08:53 nyef: if you want an ARM, I can give you my jornada 820 14:09:00 The-Kenny: A couple methods, but they aren't portable. Row-major-aref should be portable, though. 14:09:05 only 32MB of RAM, but it runs linux 14:09:07 -!- beerb is now known as WarWeasle 14:09:17 (ok, only linux 2.4) 14:09:22 Fare: I have an NSLU2, which is 32MB RAM, 266MHz. 14:09:37 better than my jornada 14:09:56 I also have QEMU. 14:10:04 *stassats* can only test sbcl on n810 with 128mb ram and 400mhz 14:10:13 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:10:29 QEMU fails spectacularly at trying to emulate clisp 14:10:39 I suspect its SIGSEGV handling is not so good 14:10:53 (maybe it's improved since I last tried) 14:10:59 *stassats* gave up using qemu for cross-compiling 14:11:24 Ah. 14:11:42 stassats: yes, I see. 14:11:43 What I'm hoping to do at some point is get VMs for each CPU architecture that SBCL targets. 14:12:40 Including the wierd ones. 14:12:43 and a same SBCL being capable to remotely ptrace-debug processes of any architecture? 14:13:06 "welcome to my 1MHz ARM!" 14:13:55 Might need a small stub to do the actual ptrace stuff in C, but it's something I thought about. 14:15:50 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:49 keeping all the symbol table and debug info in a file mapped by the meta-process? 14:17:00 so the target process just has what's barely needed 14:17:20 maybe even having more advanced I/O things done in the supervisor process 14:17:45 or having a declarative way to specify which computations happen in which process 14:17:46 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:17:52 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:18:16 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:18:23 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:22:34 Yesterday afternoon and evening, I looked over the DWARF 3 spec with an eye towards using it for SBCL debug info. 14:22:41 And it's not a great match. 14:24:17 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:24:46 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:11 no big surprise here 14:27:13 It's basically only good for a libSBCL / executable-delivery scenario where you want to be able to use gdb. 14:27:35 who wants to be able to use gdb? 14:27:59 on the other hand, if SBCL can read the info to be able to print stack frames from C/C++ parts of the system... 14:28:01 And as soon as you start using vendor extensions to describe lisp-specific semantics, you break gdb. 14:28:13 Yes, -that- would be a help. 14:28:21 then SBCL can become a debugger for C programs 14:28:41 Or there's the introspection thing for deriving bindings to C/C++ code based on the debug info. 14:29:11 that's nice, too 14:29:27 (if libraries you dynlink to have the debug info, that is) 14:30:08 So long as you build against the debug libraries, you can link the stripped ones. 14:30:14 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-11.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:31:42 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:31:47 The whole file / line / column thing in DWARF for representing source locations is simultaneously a lot of extra bookkeeping for us and a perfect fit for the descendents of Algol. 14:33:01 nyef: what's the format of the line/column attributes ? 14:35:01 Looks like it's a set of DW_AT_*_{column,file,line} attribute descriptors, presumably some sort of integer, string, integer representation. 14:35:57 Wasn't really paying attention once I looked at it and realized that it'd be information not easily available from the reader. 14:37:13 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.234.62] has joined #lisp 14:37:52 nyef: what about adopting the reader strategy from PLT Scheme? 14:38:06 (or adopting the front end of PLT, and writing a backend for it?) 14:38:20 (as well as a CL syntax front-end) 14:38:32 I'm unfamiliar with PLT Scheme, I'm afraid. 14:38:45 elurin [n=user@88.231.223.140] has joined #lisp 14:41:55 if you become familiar with it, the CL community might lose you :) 14:42:07 Ugh. DWARF vendor extensions don't appear to be specified to interoperate well when dealing with compilation units from multiple toolchains, or for consuming debug information from one toolchain-using-extensions with a different toolchain-using-extensions. :-/ 14:42:18 though if we combine nifty SBCL-style backend with nifty PLT-style front end, we could have a winner 14:42:19 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-195-3.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 14:42:47 nyef: what about not dwarf, but "how GCC uses dwarf"? 14:43:20 toddoon [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:32 GCC being the main producer of dwarf info? I don't know, it still loses on the gdb side. 14:46:21 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:15 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 14:51:36 test 14:51:53 (whoops sorry!) 14:52:06 -!- elurin [n=user@88.231.223.140] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:52:10 elurin [n=user@88.231.223.140] has joined #lisp 14:52:51 v0|d` [n=user@a.ns.core.gen.tr] has joined #lisp 14:53:34 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.192.22] has joined #lisp 14:53:39 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-53-240.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:54:23 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-169.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:57:34 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 14:57:53 ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 14:59:10 Why again should indices start at zero? 14:59:34 I think it's a bit unfortune that you speak about "secondary return value", but to access it you use (nth-value 1 ...) 15:00:13 tcr: because zero is the first integer? 15:00:41 tcr: http://lambda-the-ultimate.org/node/1950 15:00:46 Wait, "secondary return value"? 15:01:11 I know we defined one value as "primary", but aren't any others merely values, not "secondary" values? 15:02:25 *Fare* lobbies Washington for first-class values 15:02:42 all values should be first-class 15:02:54 go ML tuples! 15:03:08 Seriously? 15:03:17 -!- azuk` is now known as azuk 15:03:19 man. python's range really is confusing.... 15:03:29 nyef: s/secondary/second/ then. 15:03:32 fe[nl]ix: Thanks! 15:03:45 sykopomp: you are, of course, referring to the legendary lisp compiler 15:04:15 dlowe1: hm? 15:04:52 To find out whether a symbol is bound to a function, is there a cleaner way than (ignore-errors (symbol-function symbol)) ? 15:04:52 sykopomp: The Python Compiler for CMU Common Lisp, right? 15:04:55 sykopomp: when you mention Python 15:05:07 ((functionp symbol) always returns a nil, because the symbol itself is not a function..) 15:05:07 (Later also seen in SBCL, of course.) 15:05:08 ah right 15:05:17 (oops) I meant the language ;) 15:05:24 deego: foundp. 15:05:28 *fboundp. 15:05:34 Ah, thanks pkhuong 15:06:19 Now, that only checks for function bindings. You could have a function bound to a symbol as a value, not a function, and fboundp wouldn't help. 15:06:37 (Not a rare scenario, but also not the default.) 15:08:20 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.189.246] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:08:39 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-195-3.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:51 lboard [n=lboard@117.193.202.231] has joined #lisp 15:09:10 -!- v0|d [n=user@a.ns.core.gen.tr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:09:17 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:09:26 cmillward [n=cmillwar@user-0calc4q.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 15:09:30 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.189.246] has joined #lisp 15:09:32 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.189.246] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:09:36 can I (setf (symbol-function 'foo) 1) ? 15:09:48 deego: Also, Use FDEFINITION rather than SYMBOL-FUNCTION as the general getter of functions. The former takes function names, not only symbols (i.e. (setf foo) names, too) 15:10:23 what happens when 'foo is bound to a macro? 15:10:39 Ah, thanks tcr 15:10:41 symbol-functions returns something of implementation-dependent nature 15:11:05 Why doesn't this set a variable ab to 1? -- (set (intern (concatenate 'string "a" "b")) 1) 15:11:32 deego: Because symbol names are case-sensitive. 15:12:05 Hm, Doesn't set AB either 15:12:06 deego: |ab| 15:12:15 (It does set ab to 1, but you're looking at AB.) 15:13:12 ab is AB! 15:13:37 Ah, I see; if I use "A" and "B" it works is I'd expect. 15:13:44 -!- bbe [n=bbe@58.213.184.152] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:13:54 I am trying to take an input like "gray" and return a color, like +gray+ 15:14:04 use a hash table. 15:14:07 The latter is in clim 15:14:08 Fare: By "the front end of PLT" do you mean DrScheme? 15:15:43 no, I mean the general module system, that allows you to define pretty much any syntax and semantics for your modules 15:15:47 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:15:57 Ah. 15:15:58 including the module-aware source-level debugger 15:16:09 and the advanced macro system 15:16:29 so when you click on "FOO", it shows you the documentation from the correct module 15:16:42 Hrm. 15:17:13 so, assuming we keep the front-end, maybe even tuck a CL syntax+semantics for it 15:17:31 and have a better compiler than their JIT thingie 15:17:57 Fare: Instead of going the seperate cfasl route, have you considered extending WITH-COMPILATION-UNIT to make it retain the current compilation environment across multiple invocations of COMPILE-FILE? 15:18:14 tcr: how would that help? 15:19:52 I'm not sure what xcvb uses cfasls for, but it would address the need for compile-file + subsequent load problem 15:20:26 milanj [n=milan@77.46.174.242] has joined #lisp 15:21:22 with xcvb there is no subsequent load 15:21:30 every thing happens from scratch 15:21:38 every compile is in its own process 15:21:41 I think you use cfasls for (compile-file "foo" :cfasl "foo.cfasl"), then to compile bar.lisp which needs macros from foo.lisp by doing (load "foo.cfasl") (compile-file "bar") 15:21:51 yes 15:22:11 Ah right you also want parallel compilation 15:22:28 tcr: moreover your trick would have only one context 15:22:35 but different files want different context 15:23:37 rstandy [n=rastandy@host89-142-static.5-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 15:23:42 hi all 15:24:30 Fare: You could make compilation-units first class, and they would serve as contexts 15:25:32 kuwabara [n=kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:48 Fare: Anyway, I just read the issue writeup for with-compilation-unit, and it specifically mentions it's there for this kind of experimentation. So it'd be the natural hook into the standard for this kind of stuff. (Although the cfasl concept makes sense, too, of course.) 15:30:47 -!- pitui` [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:30:59 -!- acieroid [n=quentin@79.88.21.52] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:31:09 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["bye :)"] 15:31:38 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:33:16 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:33:43 ejs1 [n=eugen@92-49-195-3.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 15:34:40 sohail [n=Sohail@d207-81-121-15.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:06 -!- yasuto [n=yasuto@pon100-117.kcn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:35:14 acieroid [n=quentin@114.22.83-79.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:16 KalifG [n=user@166.128.64.132] has joined #lisp 15:36:49 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 15:37:14 I see that clim-user::+gray+ => #, but when I (find-symbol "+gray+" :clim-user), why do I get nil? 15:37:39 Ah 15:37:44 case (sorry) 15:38:32 jfactor [n=john@student165-220.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 15:39:16 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F6C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:09 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-11.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 15:40:28 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-8-183.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:40:35 Good afternoon. 15:40:35 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF09929.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:40:43 hello beach 15:40:47 Good morning :) 15:41:05 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:41:19 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:30 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:41:34 KalifG: I am guessing you are new here. Yes? 15:42:00 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF09929.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:10 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-11.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:44:24 tcr pasted "For Fare: First class compilation-units" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/76143 15:46:41 jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has joined #lisp 15:46:42 Fare: Something on that line. Are there advantages for running the compiler in seperate processes rather than threads? (I mean other advantages than sbcl's big compiler lock) 15:46:44 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-85-141.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:47:04 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-8-183.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:47:08 tcr: what exactly do you put in a "compilation unit" 15:47:09 -!- beach` is now known as beach 15:47:15 it's the whole compiler state we're talking about 15:47:20 and that ain't very modular 15:47:22 -!- KalifG [n=user@166.128.64.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:47:27 Fare: Compile-time definitions 15:48:00 how is that different from cfasl? 15:48:13 you want an in-memory (c)fasl that you can dump afterwards? 15:48:19 and that you can revert from? 15:48:28 but how do you revert? 15:48:33 Basically. I don't know if I want them, it's just something that crossed my mind 15:48:57 since that's all side-effects, reverting means remembering the previous state 15:49:24 not impossible, but that means reflecting on a whole bunch of state 15:49:42 All side-effects are done relative to *ctx-a* or *ctx-b* 15:49:52 the idea of unraveling the CLOS state makes me shudder 15:50:14 yes, but that means about *ALL* the state of the whole system 15:50:20 as in save-image 15:50:30 Uhm, why? 15:50:32 so "fork, save-lisp-and-die" 15:50:37 eval-when 15:50:50 (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (some arbitrary code)) 15:50:56 hrm 15:51:24 I mean, you can have a language that allows you to segregate compile-time side effects from other effects, etc. 15:51:29 but that language isn't CL 15:51:32 jsnell, hi! 15:51:38 jsnell, while I have you at hand... 15:51:50 What does the cfasl machinery do with that? 15:51:56 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-4.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 15:52:07 your CFASLs do capture macroexpansion-time side effects and compiler-let side-effects, don't they? 15:52:40 no 15:52:40 actually, I suppose they don't after all 15:52:57 since you must FIRST expand to an eval-when before you know when to eval 15:53:32 (but I suppose we could have RFASL and MEFASL if we really wanted) 15:53:36 (OUCH!) 15:53:57 user___ [n=user@p54926943.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:01 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:54:04 jsnell, any ETA as to a merge with trunk? 15:54:04 those would be harder 15:55:36 (btw, looks like the CCL guys are going to implement CFASL, after all) 15:55:42 sorry, no. my sbcl time right now is limited pretty much to making a release once a month if nobody else has time to make one 15:55:43 (now, I *really* have to finish xcvb soon) 15:55:45 cool 15:56:32 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 15:56:48 KalifG [n=user@166.128.64.132] has joined #lisp 15:57:12 willb [n=wibenton@wireless108.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:57:42 ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:09 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless108.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 15:58:16 willb [n=wibenton@wireless108.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:58:28 keramida [n=keramida@adsl247-242.kln.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:58:35 -!- dcjackson [n=dcj@dcjmacbookpro.clark-communications.com] has quit [] 15:59:14 I hadn't heard that they weren't implementing it, though. was there some reason they weren't going to do it, and now are? 16:01:20 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:02:25 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:03:14 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:04:16 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@fq-wireless-pittnet-185.wireless.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 16:04:24 Does anyone see what I am doing wrong in http://paste.lisp.org/display/76145 ? 16:04:38 -!- KalifG [n=user@166.128.64.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:04:43 I tried to invoke automatically the 'abort restart when ^C is typed in a terminal, 16:04:48 KalifG [n=user@166.128.64.132] has joined #lisp 16:04:50 but sbcl seems to still enter the debugger. 16:06:56 Are you in emacs? 16:07:19 No, I just run sbcl from my bash prompt. 16:08:06 (and copy/paste stuff from Emacs, but that's probably ok) 16:10:25 pitui [n=pitui@135.207.174.197] has joined #lisp 16:10:35 What does (sb-sys:interactive-interrupt (err) (print err)) 16:10:36 do 16:11:15 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 16:11:43 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 16:11:46 hello 16:12:01 hi attila_lendvai 16:12:02 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:12:11 hello 16:12:19 hello 16:12:21 WarWeasle: not much, at least it doesn't print anything before entering the debugger 16:12:34 keramida: ....why do you edit with emacs, but not use slime? 16:13:02 WarWeasle: see * (handler-bind ((sb-sys:interactive-interrupt #'(lambda (c) 16:13:02 (print c)))) 16:13:02 (iota 1e30)) 16:13:02 ^C 16:13:05 debugger invoked on a SB-SYS:INTERACTIVE-INTERRUPT in thread #: 16:13:05 attila_lendvai: in perec, is it possible to define a slot as (set string) 16:13:10 Interactive interrupt at #x5805459F. 16:13:11 Type HELP for debugger help, or (SB-EXT:QUIT) to exit from SBCL. 16:13:16 restarts (invokable by number or by possibly-abbreviated name): 16:13:19 0: [CONTINUE] Return from SB-UNIX:SIGINT. 16:13:22 1: [ABORT ] Exit debugger, returning to top level. 16:13:25 (SB-BIGNUM:SUBTRACT-BIGNUM # #) 16:13:28 paste bot 16:13:35 oops 16:13:36 wrong paste, sorry 16:13:39 :( 16:13:42 Do you know why the call to (osicat-posix:rename #P"/home/kiuma/temp/cmsrepo/webapp/foo/bar/" #P"/home/kiuma/temp/cmsrepo/webapp/foo/bar/boo/") signals this exception # ? 16:13:42 lisppaste: url 16:13:42 that should have been http://paste.lisp.org/display/76145#1 16:13:43 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 16:13:53 ah good 16:14:46 sykopomp: i borked my local slime by cvs updating to the wrong snapshot; that's what I usually do :) 16:15:04 attila_lendvai: set seems to accept only entities 16:15:19 kami-: how would that be mapped to rdbms? you can have :type serialized and put in a list or hashtable in the slot, but obviously you won't be able to search for it using sql queries 16:15:19 keramida: the condition isn't signaled, but invoked via break 16:15:22 -!- WarWeasle [n=beerb@208.4.144.212] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:15:38 which enters the debugger directly, with no possibility of handling it 16:15:54 ouch 16:15:55 if you want to disable the debugger, have a look at *debugger-hook*. or (sb-ext:disable-debugger) 16:15:56 kami-: or alternatively you can define your own type and implement a reader/writer that reads/writes it into a comma separated list, or something alike 16:15:57 hnr [n=henry@cpc1-cmbg6-0-0-cust572.cmbg.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 16:16:02 there goes my hope of handling it :) 16:16:08 attila_lendvai: sure. I'm aware of the limitations. But I thought I saw list somewhere 16:16:39 WarWeasle [n=beerb@208.4.144.212] has joined #lisp 16:16:52 Fare: It seems to me that (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (some-arbitrary-code)) is actually not a compile-time effect. It's evaluated in the /evaluation context/ but there's no promise that the effects are prevailed throughout subsequent compiler invocations. (Of course, they need to in SBCL because it's what the defining macros (defun, defmacro etc) expand to.) 16:16:58 Whoops sorry about that, slime locked up my computer. 16:16:58 kami-: maybe you remember something like (set some-other-entity) which is a one-way association. but we don't use that much, because it's not any cheaper than a two-way one... 16:17:39 jsnell: thanks. I was looking for a way to do something like: run an sbcl script, if ^C is pressed (but not for any other error), print "Interrupted." and quit 16:17:43 s/evaluation context/evaluation environment/ 16:17:47 attila_lendvai: so, the best thing would be to have a simple entity with a text value slot 16:17:59 I'll try to use *invoke-debugger-hook* 16:18:34 ignore my previous question 16:18:57 kami-: if you need sql queries for the strings, then yes. otherwise i'd go with :type serialized 16:19:42 attila_lendvai: thank you very much. will try serialized 16:19:56 bye 16:19:59 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:20:05 kami-: yw, bye 16:21:48 -!- archangelpetro [n=archange@cpc2-oxfd4-0-0-cust85.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:22:43 younder [i=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 16:23:37 tcr: sure, it's allowed for the compiler to throw out the compiler's evaluation environment at the end of the compilation unit 16:23:51 -!- lboard [n=lboard@117.193.202.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:24:24 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:25:30 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:25:58 aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:36 -!- aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:26:49 aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:52 deafmacro [n=user@59.92.172.14] has joined #lisp 16:27:23 -!- KalifG [n=user@166.128.64.132] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:27:46 I found this if you are still trying: http://www.sbcl.org/sbcl-internals/Signal-handling.html#Signal-handling 16:27:55 keramida 16:28:51 slime question: (apologies if this is the wrong place for it) - starting an sbcl 0.9.0 session in latest aquamacs with slime of feb 20th gives this error: 16:28:54 debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-ERROR in thread 3882: 16:28:54 SWANK-BACKEND:ADD-FD-HANDLER not implementated 16:28:59 (sic) 16:29:07 0.9.0? 16:29:14 that looks like your mistake, right there 16:29:26 Xof - is that dreadfully old? 16:29:27 don't use a 3-year-old lisp with an up-to-the-minute slime 16:29:29 back to the future! 16:29:40 either use a three-year-old slime, or a newish lisp 16:30:04 Xof - oh yes, I see that it is. Sorry, I thought I had a recent version. 16:30:30 4-year-old :-) 16:30:47 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-72-14.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:31:23 hnr -- macports has a quite recent sbcl if you need to bootstrap a lisp. 16:31:32 WarWeasle: yeah, I 've been reading that part. I don't want to use (without-interrupts ...) though. That would kind of make the whole 'trap ^C' exercise a bit moot. 16:32:12 Thanks though :) 16:32:22 keramida: Then you are beyond where I've been. Although I will have to sove that same problem. 16:32:36 Eventually... 16:32:41 Fade - thanks, I've just downloaded a 1.0.22 binary, will see how that goes 16:34:42 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 16:34:50 jsnell: I do not really see the fine points of seperating compile-env, and eval-env as strictly as it is specified. I can see it makes some sense because the eval-env is "of type" run-time env, i.e. a different object to a compile-env, but I do not really understand what it means that "The compilation environment inherits from the evaluation environment" (3.2.1) then 16:34:52 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:35:17 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-85-141.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:35:20 -!- beach` is now known as beach 16:37:42 The compilation-env is also going to be thrown away after compilation, so the distinction seems a bit artifical 16:38:39 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 16:38:50 jsnell, because ITA asked them 16:39:33 tcr: is there any other way that would keep existing and future CL code running? 16:40:16 some macros DEPEND on some functions and variables to exist at compile-time 16:41:05 hell, the whole CLOS machinery is a set of some such macros 16:41:23 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit ["Be back later"] 16:41:48 boondocks 16:41:57 err .. wrong chan 16:41:58 if you don't somehow preserve those effects (not to speak about type declarations, special declarations, etc.), you lose 16:42:19 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 16:42:29 -!- deafmacro is now known as crash 16:43:07 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:43:12 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-5-19.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:43:36 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@ptio.kim-minh.com] has quit ["leaving"] 16:43:45 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit [Client Quit] 16:43:58 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-72-14.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:44:00 -!- beach` is now known as beach 16:44:41 -!- crash is now known as deafmacro 16:44:48 Fare: It makes perfect sense that if you try to extend the granularity beyond one file to also take side-effects introduced by eval-when :compile-toplevel with you. 16:44:58 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-65-220.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:45:06 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:34 Fare: I just do not understand why compile-env and eval-env are specified seperate so strictly 16:46:22 doesn't seem all that strict, since they can explicitly be the same environment 16:46:44 -!- rotty [n=rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has quit ["leaving"] 16:46:51 clhs 3.2.3.1.1 16:46:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_bcaa.htm 16:46:55 I'm thinking of that one 16:47:15 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has joined #lisp 16:47:42 tcr: because precisely in the case of a different process doing the compilation, they are indeed separate! 16:48:01 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:48:01 whereas in the case of the same process doing the compilation, they are indeed the same 16:48:11 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:32 that doesn't sound right to me. are you sure you're not thinking of evaluation vs. runtime environment? 16:48:37 The effects to the evaluation-environment are stored in cfasls, too. So how are they spereate? 16:49:36 I think they're specified seperate because they're of different type (compile-env object vs. run-time env object) 16:50:32 > The compilation environment inherits from the evaluation environment, and the compilation environment and evaluation environment might be identical. 16:50:54 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:11 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:51:22 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:36 And the earlier remark about "compile-env inheriting from the eval-env" makes sense if you consider that eval-env inherits from startup-env, so e.g. declarations coming from PROCLAIM (before an invocation of compile-file) will be reflected in the compilation-env 16:52:16 tcr: I don't see where there is a disagreement or confusion 16:52:25 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:52:44 What's the point of 3.2.3.1.1? 16:53:34 (except maybe in the weird interaction between eval-when and defmacro, which may or may not itself be expressed in terms of defmacro being a macro expanding into an eval-when (:compile-toplevel :execute) 16:53:56 that (defun foo () ...) (defmacro bar () (foo)) doesn't need to work? 16:54:02 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 16:54:21 the point of 3.2.3.1.1 is to allow implementations that create .o files that don't include macro definitions 16:54:52 Fare: DEFMACRO is specified that the macro definition will be available at run-time 16:54:59 if you want functions available at macro-expansion time, or macros available at runtime, you have to ask for it 16:55:54 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 16:56:13 tcr: but not in subsequent files, unless you ask for it, apparently 16:56:51 (defmacro foo () ...) MUST: 16:56:52 dcjackson [n=dcj@nat/microsoft/x-1c019a790d69c7ff] has joined #lisp 16:57:01 (or maybe in subsequent files, but only if you load the FASL) 16:57:16 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 16:57:38 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:48 jsnell: DEFUN is not specified to make the function definition available at compile-time. (declaim (inline foo)) (defun foo () ...)) might be a better example, but even that is not required to store the definition. 16:58:27 (And thanks, btw., for helping me understand the issue) 16:58:29 -!- rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:58:45 dwave [n=ask@212251218142.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:59:13 rotty [n=rotty@nncmain.nicenamecrew.com] has joined #lisp 16:59:14 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@dpc6745208046.direcpc.com] has quit [] 16:59:32 right, so that's the difference between the evaluation and compilation environments. the compilation environment must contain a definition of FOO. the evaluation environment doesn't need to 17:00:39 I'll try to write this down and blog about it. 17:01:03 it's just like a C compiler -- it remembers how to inline a function, but you can't use it in macroexpansion or anything 17:01:37 (especially if it's a cross-compiler) 17:01:39 -!- cmillward [n=cmillwar@user-0calc4q.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 17:02:54 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:03:40 -!- dcjackson [n=dcj@nat/microsoft/x-1c019a790d69c7ff] has quit [] 17:03:42 note that there can be lisp cross-compilers, too 17:04:19 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:04:20 SBCL during build being a case in point. 17:04:44 so, if I'm cross-compiling CL code, I won't compile a function for evaluation in the host environment unless it's marked with (eval-when (:compile-toplevel ...) ...) 17:08:11 *Fare* thinks that EVAL-WHEN is a stinking pile of rot 17:08:23 but better than nothing at all, I suppose 17:08:32 Yes, it's overly complex 17:08:38 would you rather starve or eat rotten food? 17:08:52 maybe rotten food followed by holy water can help 17:09:10 or licking a unicorn horn 17:09:28 dcjackson [n=dcj@nat02.service.sv2.tellme.com] has joined #lisp 17:09:30 -!- user___ [n=user@p54926943.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:09:41 or praying. 17:10:51 jsnell: And compile-env inheriting from eval-env is necessary for (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) (proclaim '(special *foo*))) to do the right thing, I guess. 17:10:55 WarWeasle: if it's interesting for later use, I think I got a first rough version to work 17:11:06 WarWeasle: see http://paste.lisp.org/display/76154 17:12:00 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.234.62] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:12:03 It does need a bit of cleanup and I'll eventually have to make a macro or something out of it, but it works for now :) 17:12:10 tcr: sounds right 17:12:58 Cool, thanks! 17:13:32 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:09 lboard [n=lboard@117.193.202.86] has joined #lisp 17:16:14 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@fq-wireless-pittnet-185.wireless.pitt.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:18:43 -!- rstandy [n=rastandy@host89-142-static.5-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:19:24 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@fq-wireless-pittnet-185.wireless.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 17:22:52 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.22] has joined #lisp 17:25:49 hum 17:26:01 is there a small multi-asdf system I could try xcvb on? 17:26:13 *Fare* thinks... xcvb and goes back to work 17:26:19 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:26:34 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:27:03 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:27:03 What's multi-asdf system? 17:27:06 *a 17:28:01 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:28:16 luis: do you have cvs commit access to slime? (You did volunteer to be contrib maintainer, right?) 17:30:11 Fare: is there a difference between a multi-asdf system and a system with dependencies? (so, just about every project out there that doesn't run on raw cl...) 17:30:31 -!- jao [n=jao@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:44 no difference 17:30:51 ok 17:31:08 *Fare* will use xcvb as a test for itself, although that seems a bit incestuous 17:31:19 circularity is how we roll. 17:32:05 Fare: by the way, my apologies for not RSVPing for this BLM, I'll make sure to let you know beforehand from now on. 17:32:08 Xof: I do have commit access, and I did volunteer. I will follow up on that... :-/ 17:32:41 there's one easy thingy that lots of people have complained about recently: the compiler-notes buffer, I think? 17:32:52 there's a provide call that doesn't match a filename or something 17:34:49 "(provide 'slime-complete-notes-tree)", I suppose. 17:35:18 and comment at the beginning of that file is wrong too 17:35:58 Hi, I am looking for a way to read the contents of a text file, wherein I can specify the delimiter. 17:36:09 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:36:19 deafmacro: delimeter of what? 17:36:36 tcr: to basically stop reading 17:37:05 for example read-line stops reading on newline character 17:37:27 deafmacro: You open the file with WITH-OPEN-FILE, then you use LOOP, and READ-CHAR until you encounter the delimeter 17:37:33 a loop until read-char finds it? 17:37:38 tcr: bah :P 17:37:47 (loop for ch = (read-char) then (read-char) until (eql ch delimiter) ...) 17:37:56 [something like that] 17:38:09 tcr: won't that approach be slow 17:38:21 ? 17:38:21 deafmacro: that was not part of your initial specification. 17:38:43 deafmacro: besides, why would it be? 17:39:42 deafmacro: What's the encoding of the text file? 17:40:03 beach: figured it would be slow to read one character at a time 17:40:27 beach: Wouldn't it be? 17:40:46 deafmacro: Everything is relative of course, but it would most likely be buffered anyway. 17:41:04 it will be buffered on sbcl at any rate 17:41:29 beach: okay. But isn't there any other way to do it? 17:41:31 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:41:41 (not ideally buffered, maybe; with the network stream buffering, I found that doing my own buffering speeded something up by about twice) 17:41:55 (most of the time before and after being spent reading from the stream) 17:42:11 deafmacro: I really don't like it when people ask for a solution to a problem, and then when they get one, it is rejected because of new requirements. 17:42:39 deafmacro: so now you want a *fast* way of reading until a delimiter *which doesn't use that particular solution*. 17:43:04 beach: sorry about that. I should have been more specific. 17:43:11 deafmacro: I am sure if I give you one, you will add yet another requirement. Could you give them all up front perhaps? 17:43:53 beach: Nope. Thats about it. 17:44:24 deafmacro: you could loop read-line and scan each string for the delimiter, then subseq the string up to the delimiter ;) 17:45:14 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:45:26 deafmacro: not to mention, as it was said before, that read-char is buffered in sbcl so it'll probably be good enough to go with the nice approach. 17:45:30 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:46:23 -!- delqna [n=delqna@147.210.246.189] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:46:42 sykopomp: okay. I think I will use read-char. Thanks 17:47:30 Heh, I haven't done a CVS in quite a few years! 17:47:36 *CVS commit 17:47:49 me neither, and good riddance. 17:47:50 heh 17:48:12 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:36 -!- WarWeasle [n=beerb@208.4.144.212] has left #lisp 17:49:39 -!- dwave [n=ask@212251218142.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 17:51:56 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:54:17 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:54:52 Xof: should be fixed. 17:55:13 -!- deafmacro [n=user@59.92.172.14] has left #lisp 17:56:12 user___ [n=user@p54924E7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:13 I haven't had much success on ##asm asking this: 17:58:29 can I trust ebp to be even? 17:58:37 on x86, of course 17:58:39 <_death> no 17:58:59 why? 17:59:40 <_death> what makes you think that you could, w/o some convention 17:59:50 lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:00:23 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:47 FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has joined #lisp 18:01:06 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:01:17 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 18:01:26 mega1: as long as it's not enforced by the hardware, not really 18:01:27 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-65-220.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:02:17 <_death> it's an ordinary general-purpose register.. mov ebp, 1 18:02:56 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 18:03:09 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:03:34 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:04:27 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:04:42 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70dafc.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:05:12 mega1 [n=mega@3e70dafc.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 18:05:27 ahem, it was too much for my client. 18:05:30 http://phil.nullable.eu/ Sweet. It's up again. Dis is bery exiting 18:06:02 -!- nenorbot [n=nix@bzq-219-145-16.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:06:19 I have been trying to use clbuild to install mcclim, etc. I also tried to bootstrap to latest sbcl via clbuild install sbcl. But when I ./clbuild lisp, it still loads 1.1.0.18 debian (the default one in lenny) 18:06:20 obviously I haven't thought this over, leaf functions are free to do anything with ebp 18:06:48 even setting it to zero which would hurt for my intended use. 18:07:01 I need a non-zero register. 18:07:07 And functions that are -fomit-frame-pointer would be able to use it randomly as well, even if they weren't leaves. 18:07:45 deego: "clbuild install sbcl" only downloads it. Try "clbuild compile-implementation sbcl" 18:07:50 ESP, on the other hand, will typically be even (due to stack alignment requirements) and non-zero. 18:08:00 -!- keramida [n=keramida@adsl247-242.kln.forthnet.gr] has left #lisp 18:08:12 <_death> nyef: there are no stack alignment requirements for IA32 18:08:24 <_death> xor eax, eax / mov esp, eax is ok 18:08:44 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 18:08:48 <_death> if a bit silly ;) 18:08:49 there are platform ABIs that do impose stack alignment restrictions 18:08:58 <_death> jsnell: yep 18:09:12 by which I mean x86 ABIs, not just non-x86 18:09:23 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 18:09:59 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:09 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has joined #lisp 18:10:30 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 18:10:39 is setting esp to something less than sensible temporarily disallowed by the ABI? 18:11:15 lichtblau: Heh, yes, I finally guessed that, and doing so 18:12:42 the sys-v ia32 abi requires esp to always be word-aligned 18:12:53 -!- lboard [n=lboard@117.193.202.86] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:13:19 that's as good as it gets 18:13:41 hmm... actually it's just a "should", what did that mean in standardeze again? 18:15:03 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:17:08 It means "doesn't have to"? :) 18:17:33 it means "pretty please" 18:20:40 bah, I give up on this even thing. It's not that important. 18:20:51 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-23-250.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:20:55 I only need a register that's not zero. 18:21:00 nyef: You had this generated SB-VM symbol recently with a crazy symbol-name. Do you happen to have that somewhere, or can give me one with a similiar crazy name? 18:21:39 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 18:21:57 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-65-220.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:22:25 jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has joined #lisp 18:22:55 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-49-89.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:23:01 <_death> mega1: what do you need it for 18:23:15 for a faster pseudo atomic in sbcl 18:25:10 <_death> then I guess esp wouldn't have helped anyway 18:25:29 why? 18:25:37 tcr: It was one of the auto-generated symbols for the disassembler. 18:26:37 <_death> mega1: you need another register to access its value 18:27:28 SB-VM:|CACHED-FUN--PUSH[(REG-NO-WIDTH ((OP 10)))]-REG-NO-WIDTH-PRINTER| 18:28:10 (, 19:20:35.) 18:29:27 Doesn't allocation-overflow do a call-out in pseudo-atomic, or am I misremembering? 18:29:34 _death: I seem to use it directly without any problem. 18:29:43 <_death> mega1: use how 18:29:56 _death: as in MOV [#x4], ESP 18:30:04 (with the fs prefix) 18:30:19 and XOR [#x4], ESP 18:30:51 <_death> oh, I assumed that you didn't want memory access 18:30:52 Beket [n=stathis@ppp7-197.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 18:31:06 mega1: If you're considering using ESP for P-A and P-A-I, please leave the old behavior available, as Win32 doesn't have sigaltstk. 18:31:36 _death: I don't, but it's still faster than mov , 0 18:31:36 (And disaligning the stack might be bad... but we don't know for sure, and would rather not risk it.) 18:33:05 nyef: Point taken about sigaltstack. I'm not disaligning it. It's just a faster way of setting the same old piece of memory. 18:33:05 <_death> mega1: if you know one of the flags is non-zero, you can that too 18:33:13 <_death> (use) 18:33:42 yes, I thought about that too, but that I can only access after pushing it to stack? 18:33:54 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 18:33:55 *nyef* sighs. 18:34:33 <_death> mega1: no, the SETxx instructions take r/m8 18:34:50 nyef: relieved? Don't be, it's still playing with os_protect ... 18:34:53 Pseudo-atomic is, essentially, a lexical attribute. It's something that could be stuffed entirely in the debug info, leaving just pseudo-atomic-interrupted as the inline bit. 18:35:17 there is no test for interrupted in my current code 18:35:53 I almost hate how much I think of implementing various bits in terms of lookups against debugging information instead of doing something directly in code. 18:38:04 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-5-19.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:38:20 I have now tried the latest sbcl source as well. I keep getting a weird "too large to be represented as a single-float" error for a function that's quite normal, and works on other lisps.. hm 18:39:26 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-23-250.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:39:32 (the error occurs when merely trying to load the function ... it should not even know the values here.. how does it even know to produce this number: 1606938044258990275541962092341162602522202993782792835301376) 18:40:10 _death: thanks, I didn't know those. But I don't think anything is known about the value of those flags. 18:40:39 very similar to this error: http://lemonodor.com/archives/001412.html 18:40:58 mega1: I'd think your best bet might be to use the D flag, except that SBCL uses it for a few things internally. 18:41:18 nyef: I looked those uses up already 18:41:26 <_death> what about the interrupt flag 18:41:27 The "D flag must be clear" is merely part of the calling convention, not an absolute proscription against setting it. 18:41:35 _death: Not user-mode accessible. 18:41:42 <_death> SETI is, methinks 18:42:15 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 18:42:23 Yes, but, if it exists, SETI doesn't set the I flag, it sets something else to the current value of the I flag. 18:42:41 <_death> which is what mega1 needs, iiuc 18:42:52 Changing the value of the I flag is IOPL-sensitive. 18:43:28 *nyef* goes to check on his lunch. 18:44:33 jfm3 [n=user@165.230.132.126] has joined #lisp 18:44:53 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:45:06 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@fq-wireless-pittnet-185.wireless.pitt.edu] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:45:42 <_death> mega1: it seems unlikely that you can't say anything about the state of the registers at any particular time and do anything useful without disruption 18:45:57 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:46:12 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:59 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 18:55:59 pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167203216.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:33 Hello. How do i use slime with emacs? I have slime downloaded and sbcl downloaded and installed... 18:56:45 so how do i put emacs into slime mode? 18:56:54 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.171.120] has quit ["<+Masque> Hey sungo, I had a thought. <@hex> Did it hurt?"] 18:57:07 (i dont know emacs too well, so this could be tough to explain to me :|) 18:57:10 slime has instructions for running sbcl from emacs, have you tried those? 18:57:10 : 18:57:11 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:57:21 i'll look for those 18:57:28 GIve it a shot then write back. 18:57:42 the slime website has a manual 18:57:51 pokey19: you were linked to the instructions yesterday. 18:57:58 did something not work? 18:58:17 MinnowTaur [n=chatzill@ip68-109-196-203.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:19 i have it set up, i just dont know what to do now 18:58:29 pokey19: M-x slime 18:58:31 -!- aggieben [n=chatzill@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:09 yeah, that's what they say, and it's saying no match... but i think this is an emacs thing.... 18:59:13 wow, just wow. I've been schleppin some perl code and went to the #perl channel to ask a a question and just can not believe how much like a juvenile locker room it is over there 18:59:39 If you do M-x goto-line in a buffer does that command work? 19:00:06 eys 19:00:08 yes 19:00:18 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF09929.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:00:20 I know lisp users don't get enough love for being nice, but I really appreciate the focus on topic this channel has. 19:00:21 Ok, so it sounds like slime isn't being loaded in your .emacs file 19:00:32 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF09929.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:35 Well, there is a slow cultural shift happening too... ;) 19:00:45 pokey19: did you make sure you put the correct path to the sbcl binary in your .emacs? 19:01:21 ok, let me check that out 19:01:24 pokey19: what OS are you using? However it sounds like sykopomp is up to speed so I'll them take this for a bit 19:01:38 apple os x 19:01:41 .5 19:01:48 eslick: Do not reference people to the online manual, it's outdated. Tell them to look into the doc/ directory of their source checkout. 19:02:14 What's the right way to defalias in common lisp? If I clone the function, the clone may not follow if the function's def. gets changed.. 19:02:28 pokey19: change "/opt/sbcl/bin/sbcl" to the path to your actual sbcl image, and change "~/hacking/lisp/slime/" to the directory where slime is *actually* installed ;) 19:02:30 deego: It's not possible. 19:02:42 deego: that's not possible portably 19:02:51 Thanks 19:03:00 i believe i did that, but i did it in the text based Emacs... im trying to set this up on the GUI mac Emacs... 19:03:06 deego: if you have a method, though you can define an :around method 19:03:19 which one? There's several emacsen for osx iirc 19:03:28 deego: And you cannot clone a function, your terminology is quite a bit botched. What exactly are you trying? 19:03:30 but I don't use OSX, so I can't help much as far as that goes :) 19:03:40 aquamacs? 19:03:44 carbon emacs... http://homepage.mac.com/zenitani/emacs-e.html 19:03:53 or Emacs.app 19:04:03 which may be the same thing as carbon emacs now, actually 19:04:03 well, they all use .emacs to init. 19:04:17 Fade: doesn't aquamacs use something else instead? 19:04:32 it might, but it definitely sources .emacs 19:04:40 use Preferences.el file in ~/Library/Preferences/Aquamacs 19:04:43 deego: you mean call the same function with a different name? 19:04:57 .emacs is where I set up slime for my powerbook. 19:05:05 tcr: (defalias 'foo 'bar) as happens in elisp. It CL, I mean this by clone: (defun a (&rest args) (apply #'b args)) 19:05:14 I've a nice Preferences.el file that saves all your open buffers and positions and restores everything when you open it again 19:05:16 which is nice because then I don't duplicate files between aquamacs and gnu emacs. 19:05:22 deego: You could, for example, do (setf (symbol-function 'bar) #'(lambda (&rest args) (apply 'foo args))), and if FOO was redefined, an invocation of BAR would involve the new definition 19:05:39 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:42 wouldn't a macro work, though? 19:05:51 (apart from it being an ugly thing to do, in general...) 19:05:59 tcr: indeed, that's the right-est :-). Though still ugly :-) 19:06:13 deego: doing defalias sounds ugly overall 19:06:48 tcr: setting the symbol-function doesn't handle (setf foo) function names. 19:06:53 it appears you need to create a new file to do any text editing (even lisp eval) on carbon emacs... Is this normal? I dont recall having to do this on regular emacs, but maybe it was done automatically ? 19:07:27 (setf (fdefinition 'bar) (lambda (&rest args) (apply #'foo args))) <-- 19:07:32 pokey19: you'll have better luck with aquamacs on os x 19:07:56 sykopomp: That doesn't keep up redefinitions of FOO. 19:07:57 -!- jfm3 [n=user@165.230.132.126] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:08:04 MinnowTauro: is that just as useful for using with Slime? 19:08:32 Aquamacs is what I use, its emacs with a nice aqua interface which you can turn off ;) 19:08:34 tcr: ah 19:08:42 i also use aquamacs. 19:08:55 last time I looked at carbon emacs, it couldn't keep up with my typing. 19:08:56 works fine with slime from cvs, and slime 2 19:09:28 MinnowTaur: okay, thanks. Downloading it now :D 19:09:46 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:06 I tried Carbon Emacs at first too, but left it behind for aquamacs rather rapidly 19:10:22 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 19:11:06 i dunno if they got their redraw problem fixed, but I hope so. it's absurd when a human being can type faster than a 1.6ghz computer can draw the text in a raw text editor. 19:11:53 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:12:03 one thing to know though is the path to configuration files and the like match OS X more than emacs, but it works very well. Instead of .emacs files you use Preferences.el in ~/Library/Preferences/Aquamacs Emacs 19:12:46 as I said, aquamacs does source ~/.emacs 19:12:50 The manual details the differences between Aquamacs and Emacs, and most importantly, how to revert these differences should you choose too. 19:12:50 aquamacs brakes too many conventions for me 19:13:02 emacs 23 will be the way forward hopefully 19:13:42 I turn off the 'open buffer in new frame', the toolbar and the rest. But I like how nice it plays with OS X 19:13:47 *sykopomp* wonders when they're planning to actually release 23 -- it's horribly broken. 19:14:05 and aquamacs is still carbon i think 19:14:06 i like that it can keep up with my typing. 19:14:15 just some osx flair on top 19:14:39 and yet, it never gives me a problem. I can't say the same for any other emacsen on os x. 19:15:25 I've had great luck with Carbon Emacs: http://homepage.mac.com/zenitani/emacs-e.html 19:15:35 It's 22.3, I haven't updated it in awhile though 19:15:36 aquamacs took some fiddling to get my fontlock ported out from gnuemacs on linux, but it does seem to be the best emacs on osx. 19:17:45 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf1c8.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 19:17:46 YMMV :) 19:17:47 I've been mucking code around in my emacs config file for awhile now, and I've a setup that essentially saves the emacs 'state' when closing down completely (like in a reboot) and restores this state upon startup. With some other tidbits like tabbar.el I find it the most useful editor on os x I could imagine. 19:18:33 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:18:53 anyhow, i think support for building gnu emacs on OSX /w carbon is in Head now. 19:18:57 still I've not looked at Climacs in ages 19:19:17 climacs has improved a lot, but it won't replace emacs any time soon. :( 19:19:34 Fade it has been like that for quite some time 19:19:36 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslc-082-082-054-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:47 whats been added lately is cocoa instead of carbon 19:19:58 so emacs 23 will be using that 19:19:59 maybe that fixes the redraw problems I used to see. 19:20:37 i dont see any redraw problems with carbon here 19:20:44 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:20:51 and since aquamacs is still using carbon underneath, the cause is probably something else 19:20:59 it lagged like crazy on my ppc mac with even medium sized buffers. 19:21:27 My carbon build of 22.3 hasn't had any problems and the configuration was a snap; I got tired of acquamacs quirks. But as I said, YMMV! 19:21:39 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:21:55 I wrote a bayesian inference engine in lisp as a hobby from my old grad school papers, I'd love to hook it into an Climacs 19:21:56 editor and experiment with things like predictive error correction. 19:21:59 I haven't tried changing in quite some time so I may be, er, dated 19:23:37 Aquamacs requires configuration, I couldn't stand 'open buffer in new frame' being set 19:24:01 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:24:07 although a beginning might find it more appealing at first 19:24:46 does this look right? http://pastie.org/400028 19:27:32 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-53-5.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:27:43 pokey19: I use a fully qualified path name for the load-path, but otherwise looks fine to me. I don't any arguments to (slime-setup) and so cannot comment on that line. 19:28:31 pokey19: if that's where slime is, and if that's the path to your sbcl, it should be fine 19:28:33 I don't know if this is 'best practice', but I recommend starting sbcl from the command line and using M-x slime-connect to attach to the image 19:29:01 nimalan [n=nimalan@128.189.251.167] has joined #lisp 19:29:11 <_death> MinnowTaur: it's just more work (also, you need to start the swank server) 19:29:15 That's how I do it, it's always nice to decouple any problems with emacs or slime state and the lisp 19:29:16 M-x slime is probably simpler, but slime-connect I guess can get around those obnoxious emacs crashes 19:29:16 mstevens_ [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:29:18 that way you can access the lisp image directly if slime gets in a bad state 19:29:37 I see we have had the same experiences :) 19:29:45 ok... so now i will paste this into aquamacs... and then say M-x 'slime ? 19:29:54 I put the swank server startup in .sbclrc or the equivalent etc, so it takes no time 19:30:01 I also do lots of development on long-running lisps (web/app servers) 19:30:52 cmo-0 [n=alaa@86.99.141.145] has joined #lisp 19:30:53 <_death> yeah, for these I use screen and connect manually 19:31:00 pokey19: like I said, I would run sbcl in a terminal and start the swank server there. Then use M-x slime-connect in emacs to attach 19:31:53 how do i start the swank server? (im running sbcl in the terminal) 19:32:12 (i dont know what the swank server is) 19:32:21 <_death> (require :swank) (swank:create-server :port ) 19:32:36 <_death> (you may want to (require :asdf) first) 19:32:59 pokey19: slime comes in two pieces, swank is a piece that runs in the lisp on a port. Slime is the part that runs in emacs and connects to swank via port. 19:32:59 ah :| 19:33:26 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@128.189.251.167] has quit [Client Quit] 19:33:42 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-133.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:34:29 its nice to be the one helping someone for a change ;) 19:38:08 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:54 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-49-89.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:48:03 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #lisp 19:50:52 huh. I see a weblocks revision announced on freshmeat. 19:51:27 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:53:54 josemanuel [n=josemanu@157.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:54:29 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-227-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit ["leaving"] 19:54:46 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-227-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 19:59:20 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 19:59:37 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-81-173-129-237.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 20:00:42 The new weblocks supports the new hunchentoot 20:00:52 Seems to be running well for me. 20:02:25 How does it compare to UCW? Anyone willing to make a comparison based on personal experience? 20:02:41 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:28 I never got over the learning curve on UCW, weblocks seems easier to start with and the core functions are experiencing less churn than UCW was when I tried to use it a few years go 20:03:35 I think there's only one person who knows UCW, and that is drewc. And he said weblocks is where UCW was a few years ago. 20:03:51 I think the weblocks community is more active, but UCW is experiencing a bit of a renewal under drewc 20:03:54 "who knows the current version of UCW" 20:04:22 But I agree with tcr that weblocks has a way to go to catch up with some of the mature features of UCW 20:04:30 (serializable continuations, for example) 20:05:03 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-67eeb0ae1cc6854f] has joined #lisp 20:05:14 -!- cmo-0 [n=alaa@86.99.141.145] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:05:40 http://weblocks.viridian-project.de/documentation claims that a manual will be available a month or two ago; does anyone know the status of that effort? 20:06:22 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:06:22 Leslie Polzer is working hard on packaging up a real weblocks release; very regular progress but it's hard to guess on a completion date 20:06:27 Weeks, not months, is my guess 20:06:49 I'm hoping to release two example apps, one very large, in the coming weeks. 20:07:00 i've just started working on webstuff in CL 20:07:03 (large = 20K+ lines of lisp code in app alone) 20:07:26 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:07:39 my tests have all been in weblocks. 20:07:59 that would be nice... i've tried a few times to get up to speed on both ucw and weblocks, failing because of a combination of quickly changing code, poor documentation, and my lack of knowledge about web stuff 20:08:26 Yeah, that's a real problem; part of the challenge of small communities of core users 20:08:44 I forked a weblocks branch back in August and it only took me a few hours to update to the new weblocks-dev this week 20:08:50 nimalan [n=nimalan@128.189.251.167] has joined #lisp 20:08:58 -!- pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167203216.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:09:01 So the API is reasonably stable; but then I don't use the view infrastructure very heavily 20:09:18 If you ignore all the automatic views and just use the core widget functionality, it's not too hard to get going 20:09:27 what problems were you having with UCW? 20:09:29 I found the view/scaffolding stuff rather confusing 20:09:39 Same stuff jlf just said 20:09:55 *nod* 20:10:07 perhaps i'll take another look.. for the moment i'm just doing simple stuff with hunchentoot+cl-who 20:10:21 no docs, changing implementation. But this was back in '04 or '05. I went with weblocks last summer because the community was more active; didn't realize how immature it was! :) 20:10:28 On Allegro common lisp, one could :zoom after errors. What's the equivalent in sbcl? I did try the manual 20:10:30 :( 20:10:47 :bt? 20:11:28 elurin: Thanks, :backtrace worked 20:11:34 eslick 20:11:57 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:13:37 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@66.166.232.134] has joined #lisp 20:18:40 " The function STREAM is undefined." with a 10-long stack of mcclim internals.. most likely means that one of the ACL macros is not defined in mcclim, the ones that usu. look like (macro (stream foo bar ) ... )... ? 20:18:47 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf1c8.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 20:18:50 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@157.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 20:20:33 deego: yeah, sounds like it 20:20:53 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 20:20:57 and what's the name of that macro? 20:21:52 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:22:32 stassats: don't know :(. I temporarily changed all streams in a bunch of files to a rand. var, and the error changed... the debug log is very undecipherable :( 20:22:34 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:54 One is this: (clim:with-output-recording-options (stm8478 :record t) 20:23:59 used to be (stream .. ) 20:24:33 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0C9C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:40 Another is (accepting-values (stream .. )) 20:24:41 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA289.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:24:46 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 20:24:59 jao [n=jao@250.Red-79-155-245.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:33 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA289.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:26:41 Ah, accept-values-command-button is not defined in mcclim 20:27:43 -!- patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 20:28:09 _death: there is no SETI instruction? 20:28:23 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp7-197.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["bbl"] 20:29:12 STI? 20:29:16 pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167203216.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:45 ferada [n=user@e179232028.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:30:24 good evening 20:30:29 -!- pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167203216.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:30:42 "(19:42:22) nyef: Yes, but, if it exists, SETI doesn't set the I flag, it sets something else to the current value of the I flag." 20:31:01 pkhuong: I think he really meant SETI 20:31:37 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@c-67-186-56-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:43 you need a really long input queue to keep conversational state in this channel. :) 20:32:00 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf1c8.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:13 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@c-67-186-56-85.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:32:13 which doesn't exist, I believe. SETcc does C, S, O, Z and P. 20:33:10 WarWeasle [n=beerb@208.4.144.212] has joined #lisp 20:33:36 pkhuong: that's what I found, too 20:33:49 is there a way to load images in (mc)clim? or do i have to use xlib for that? 20:33:50 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:34:45 mega1: what's the goal? 20:35:11 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 20:35:11 pkhuong: set pseudo atomic atomic as fast as possible on x86oids 20:35:27 currently I'm doing (inst mov (make-ea :dword :disp (* 4 thread-pseudo-atomic-bits-slot)) esp-tn :fs) 20:35:36 or ebp-tn 20:36:08 and, of course, to clear it too 20:36:56 that's currently: (inst xor (make-ea :dword :disp (* 4 thread-pseudo-atomic-bits-slot)) esp-tn :fs) 20:37:10 ferada: there is 20:37:12 but I wonder if a simple mov 0 would work better there 20:37:23 what do we need PA for? just alloc? 20:37:43 clim make-pattern-from-bitmap-file 20:37:44 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/E-2.html#_1968 20:38:09 pkhuong: mostly alloc of memory, and also tls index "allocation" 20:39:23 stassats: ah, thank you. i've searched for drawing picture or so the whole time and nothing useful came up 20:39:23 apparently, there is a use of it in float.lisp too 20:39:49 well, the UCW dependency graph is a bit of a bear. 20:39:54 tetha [n=hk@pD9EE6DCA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:07 dcjackson_ [n=dcj@nat/microsoft/x-f4720cbd2ef4a850] has joined #lisp 20:40:07 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:40:17 ferada: mcclim is able to load some other image formats 20:40:19 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:28 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-186-123.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:42:16 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:13 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-11.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 20:43:18 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has quit [] 20:45:57 are there any lisp introductions that are suited better to some python/c-hacker? 20:46:13 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@128.189.251.167] has quit [] 20:46:29 I'm fairly certain lisp code will always have an aligned SP. 20:46:34 tetha: better than? 20:46:35 minion: pcl 20:46:36 pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 20:46:43 should be good 20:47:53 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:48:03 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:06 H4ns: maybe better was the wrong word, specialized for the transition of python and c -> lisp would be a better phrase to use 20:48:19 but pcl looks nice, have been reading that on and off over the last few month 20:49:03 tetha: pcl is the most modern introduction to common lisp available, i'd say 20:49:07 rpg [n=rpg@dhcp192-1-118-101.bbn.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:25 stassats: thanks, it works :) 20:49:51 drewc: therep? 20:50:27 -!- user___ [n=user@p54924E7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:51:05 -!- mstevens_ [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 20:52:21 josemanuel [n=josemanu@157.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:55:20 archangelpetro [n=archange@cpc2-oxfd4-0-0-cust85.oxfd.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:30 nimalan [n=nimalan@128.189.251.167] has joined #lisp 20:55:42 -!- dcjackson [n=dcj@nat02.service.sv2.tellme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:56:40 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:57:05 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:58:27 pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167203216.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:43 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@128.189.251.167] has quit [Client Quit] 20:58:56 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [] 20:58:58 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-124.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 20:59:51 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:16 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:04:09 dcjackson [n=dcj@nat02.service.sv2.tellme.com] has joined #lisp 21:09:27 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:09:30 azanar [n=azanar@edm1a.mavericklabel.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:25 -!- WarWeasle [n=beerb@208.4.144.212] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:12:42 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:13:36 nimalan [n=nimalan@128.189.251.167] has joined #lisp 21:17:06 -!- pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167203216.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:20:14 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 21:20:18 -!- dcjackson_ [n=dcj@nat/microsoft/x-f4720cbd2ef4a850] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:39 pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167203216.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:15 -!- pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167203216.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:25:30 patmaddox [n=pergesu@111.sub-75-217-235.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 21:25:56 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:17 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:26:26 *fusss* whipes eye balls with cheap vodka and tissue 21:26:39 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70dafc.adsl.enternet.hu] has left #lisp 21:26:41 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 21:26:42 is it me or can one choose the storage format of structures? 21:27:11 fusss: How do you mean choose the storage format? 21:27:35 have cltl2 handy? 21:27:39 like... vector? 21:27:48 :list argument 21:27:53 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf1c8.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:28:00 Oh. 21:28:11 I thought you meant as in format for storing it on disk. 21:28:52 dwave [n=ask@212251218142.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 21:29:23 schme: yes, that's exactly what it is/was 21:30:00 Hmm.. 21:30:04 -!- FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:30:12 I imagine you can store it in any format you want ? 21:30:48 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node178.html#SECTION002373000000000000000 21:31:30 Structure specs just thinned out from cltl2 to hyperspec; i think they removed allot of "functionality" in favor of clos 21:31:33 pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167203216.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:37 fusss: Possibly make-load-form? 21:33:51 Koerper [i=Slax@c-f73e70d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:35:06 specbot: make-load-form 21:36:01 clhs: make-load-form 21:36:01 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ld_.htm 21:36:29 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:10 pokey19_ [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167203216.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:23 -!- pokey19_ [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167203216.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has left #lisp 21:39:04 -!- ferada [n=user@e179232028.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:39:05 -!- pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167203216.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:39:29 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:20 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 21:41:12 dcjackson_ [n=dcj@nat/microsoft/x-2fe6c12a988ead2d] has joined #lisp 21:41:23 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-184-124.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 21:43:56 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0F5AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:12 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C9C4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:44:14 -!- H4ns2 is now known as H4ns 21:44:26 -!- rpg [n=rpg@dhcp192-1-118-101.bbn.com] has quit [] 21:46:16 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 21:46:19 -!- dwave [n=ask@212251218142.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:48:12 antoni [n=antoni@125.pool85-53-29.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:50:28 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-81-28.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:00 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:04 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@92-49-195-3.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:58:19 -!- dcjackson [n=dcj@nat02.service.sv2.tellme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:23 -!- ejohnson [n=user@fw1.franz.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:44 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.9] has joined #lisp 21:59:50 -!- nimalan [n=nimalan@128.189.251.167] has quit [] 22:00:04 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:01:40 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:22 WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:51 Hunh. Why does the x86 port use pseudo-atomic there in float.lisp? 22:07:11 ... Unless it's to keep the "unusual" fp mode from appearing in lisp signal handlers? 22:11:46 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:11:47 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:11:48 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 22:15:18 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 22:15:31 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:26 TDT [n=TDT@96.63.32.207.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:51 -!- beach``` is now known as beach 22:17:02 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslc-082-082-054-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:12 rpg [n=rpg@dhcp89-077-159.bbn.com] has joined #lisp 22:20:41 dcjackson [n=dcj@nat02.service.sv2.tellme.com] has joined #lisp 22:21:01 -!- antoni [n=antoni@125.pool85-53-29.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [] 22:21:15 Beket [n=stathis@ppp-94-68-96-48.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:21:21 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 22:21:47 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:29 -!- dcjackson [n=dcj@nat02.service.sv2.tellme.com] has quit [] 22:31:33 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:31:41 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:34:08 -!- ayrnieu [n=julian@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:36:09 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-65-220.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:37:38 -!- dcjackson_ [n=dcj@nat/microsoft/x-2fe6c12a988ead2d] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:37:51 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:57 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp-94-68-96-48.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:38:11 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:38:18 Beket [n=stathis@ppp-94-68-96-48.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:38:49 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:39:09 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 22:40:02 Hello, does anyone have experience building ECL on Ubuntu (thread issue) 22:40:09 shizzy0 [n=shane@c-76-105-6-132.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:08 you could look at what the source package for ecl does in ubuntu 22:41:33 workthrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:41:55 I keep getting a seg fault when I build ECL with threads. 22:42:22 Ok, I didn't think to look in apt. 22:42:40 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:43 the prepacked ecl has :threads on *features* 22:43:12 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:43:16 nyef, shouldn't the signal handler save and reset the flags? 22:43:19 -!- X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has left #lisp 22:44:56 Fare: The question isn't the effect of the signal handler on the external environment, the question is the effect on the environment of the signal handler. If the floating-point modes have temporarily been modified, what should they be set to for the body of the handler? 22:45:56 To say "whatever they were in the external environment" leaves signal handlers open to starting with undesired floating-point modes, and protecting against that is an extra burden on the programmer. 22:46:27 Fade: I just got ECL and it doesn't seem to have threads. Here are the features 22:46:28 (:LINUX :FORMATTER :IEEE-FLOATING-POINT :RELATIVE-PACKAGE-NAMES :DFFI 22:46:28 :CLOS-STREAMS :CMU-FORMAT :UNIX :ECL-PDE :DLOPEN :CLOS :BOEHM-GC :ANSI-CL 22:46:28 :COMMON-LISP :ECL :COMMON :X86_64 :FFI :PREFIXED-API) 22:46:37 shouldn't handlers have their own environment? 22:46:48 To say "the default for the implementation" leaves programmers who want a different environment by default (having set the floating-point modes "by hand", as it were) with the same problem. 22:47:02 i.e. have the default mode that makes things work, whatever the state was when they interrupted 22:47:06 (which they will restore) 22:47:45 at least, having a default means only SOME people have to set things by hand 22:47:54 not having a default means EVERYONE have to set things by hand 22:48:15 Using a pseudo-atomic around the temporary alteration to the floating-point modes means that things mostly work for everyone. 22:48:45 But in a sense you're right, reestablishing the default would likely be better. 22:49:00 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF09929.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:49:10 So long as the -other- case is considered: A signal handler that wishes to change the floating-point mode in the outer environment. 22:49:13 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:49:32 hum. That sounds iffy. 22:49:40 Unless it's a synchronous signal handler. 22:49:53 i'm using intrepid on an x86_64 box, and this is the features list on my host: (:CLC-OS-DEBIAN :COMMON-LISP-CONTROLLER :ASDF :LINUX :FORMATTER :IEEE-FLOATING-POINT :RELATIVE-PACKAGE-NAMES :DFFI :CLOS-STREAMS :CMU-FORMAT :UNIX :DLOPEN :CLOS :THREADS :BOEHM-GC :ANSI-CL :COMMON-LISP :ECL :COMMON :X86_64 :FFI :PREFIXED-API) 22:49:55 Or under programmer control, such as a debugger trap. 22:50:04 same difference. 22:50:21 asynchronous change of random state is recipe for disaster 22:50:24 Not quite. Programmer intervention is necessarily asynchronous. 22:50:46 Fare: Thanks, I'll keep hacking, trying to build it. 22:52:47 *Fare* has had problems with cl-launch and ecl, and suspects a same-named file foo.o is compiled by ecl from different sources and/or options, causing "interesting" failures. 22:53:24 I'll agree that the presumption that the programmer knows what he's doing when he tries such a change to the machine state is reasonable. 22:54:24 -!- WarWeasle [n=brad@c-98-220-168-14.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["TTFN"] 22:54:53 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:55:38 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless108.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:55:42 (On the grounds that a programmer who doesn't know what he's doing should soon discover that it works "most of the time", and will either learn how to tell that it's a bad time to try it, will put up with the unreliability, or will ask for help in some fashion.) 22:55:59 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-111-123.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:56:31 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host68-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 22:59:36 beware, that way lies java :P 23:01:59 What, assuming that the programmer knows what he's doing when attempting something obviously low-level and hackish? 23:03:24 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:03:59 no, assuming he'll learn it's a bad time to try something 23:04:42 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:28 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@157.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:05:59 ... But I don't assume that, I listed it as one of three options. 23:06:30 (Note that bitching about how unreliable it is can be interpreted as a cry for help.) 23:08:05 That said, if someone never gets bitten by the unreliability they could fall into a fourth category of repsonses, "clueless". 23:08:51 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp-94-68-96-48.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:14 Beket [n=stathis@ppp-94-68-96-48.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:09:33 -!- rpg [n=rpg@dhcp89-077-159.bbn.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:10:12 -!- Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:10:25 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.9] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:10:59 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:34 elurin` [n=user@88.231.223.140] has joined #lisp 23:11:58 -!- elurin [n=user@88.231.223.140] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:15:08 elurin [n=user@88.231.223.140] has joined #lisp 23:15:52 -!- elurin` [n=user@88.231.223.140] has quit [Client Quit] 23:19:57 -!- Koerper [i=Slax@c-f73e70d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:23:59 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-167-4.static.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 23:26:12 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp-94-68-96-48.home.otenet.gr] has left #lisp 23:26:28 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:27:00 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Out of Memory: Killed process [9823] xchat."] 23:27:15 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:27:27 -!- patmaddox [n=pergesu@111.sub-75-217-235.myvzw.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:32:52 nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 23:33:24 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:32 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-65.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:33:53 sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-65.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:35:57 auclairb [n=auclairb@206.167.180.24] has joined #lisp 23:37:10 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:38:25 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@206.167.180.24] has quit [Client Quit] 23:38:41 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:40 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 23:46:17 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:48:59 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:51:39 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-224-126.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp