00:02:51 ok, i'm stuck on #4 of http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/exercises/lisp-exs.html 00:03:09 I really have no clue how to modify something I got passed as a parameter 00:03:19 -!- durka42_ [n=durka@64.20.183.154] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:03:48 clhs setf 00:03:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_setf.htm 00:04:27 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:04:51 BW^- [i=Miranda@151.80.9.94] has joined #lisp 00:05:19 guys, can anyone of you tell me what Haskell and Standard ML respectively does better than Common Lisp / Scheme and C++/Java? 00:05:31 like, what problems they excel in solving 00:05:40 <_death> Seb: it needs to be a macro 00:05:47 static typing 00:06:03 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:06:07 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 00:06:09 _death: ah 00:06:16 no, not for this problem 00:06:24 oh 00:06:27 stassats: haskell and sml? 00:06:36 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:56 or wait, /me goes to read problem description again 00:07:00 _death: i know how to do it with a macro, but I'm unsure with a function 00:07:15 *really* unsure :) 00:07:28 but I don't want the solution, just to be assured that it's *doable* with a function heh 00:07:37 yes, you can do that without a macro 00:08:21 <_death> I guess given their note, it's possible to modify the car of each cons cell to be the next's, and throw away the last cons 00:08:40 _death: exactly 00:11:19 anyone? :) 00:11:40 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-225.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:11:46 <_death> BW: no, you'll have to find that out yourself 00:11:59 BW^-: not really, this channel is not about haskell and sml 00:12:11 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 00:12:33 BW - Haskell and SML have declarative type definitions that create constructors, feed their pattern-matcher, etc. 00:12:33 right 00:12:46 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:12:56 stassats: ok, cool 00:13:01 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [] 00:13:20 stassats: i know. thing is i know what CL/Scheme is good for, so i thought i'd ask here so i could recognize what Haskell/SML is in relation w CL/Scheme. 00:13:31 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 00:13:39 ayrnieu: create constructors? what do you mean by etc.? :) 00:13:42 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:00 etc. is a latin abbreviation for et cetera, which means "and so on" 00:14:03 ayrnieu: do you see any particular problems that haskell/sml is particularly good at solving? 00:14:14 ayrnieu: i know, but, what did you think of by etc.? 00:14:19 compiler writing? 00:15:33 stassats: why? 00:15:39 stassats: i heard the same thing, but why? 00:15:58 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-240-176-62.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:18:33 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:02 BW, here's a use of a pattern-matcher in CL: http://gist.github.com/62946 -- ML implementations come with this, a well-architected mechanism for extending it, and lots of compiler-smarts to make it efficient. This isn't irreconcileable with CL, but ML starts out with it. 00:20:37 -!- dwave [n=ask@062249178204.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:10 -!- Modius_ is now known as Modius 00:21:10 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:31 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-196-136.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:41 holycow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 00:22:10 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:22:22 Hard to explain; but I used to be seduced by these features in functional languages but have trouble straying from CL due to the ability A: to add them, and B: To add domain specific, less general purpose equivalents. 00:22:59 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 00:23:10 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:23:15 ayrnieu: i see. does their pattern matching regards any kind of data structure, or strings in particular. 00:23:47 ayrnieu: what did you mean by "create constructors" five lines ago? 00:24:38 ayrnieu: if i would summarize what CL/Scheme adds over Java/C++/C#/PHP, i would say, Lisp gives the possibility of abstraction to the programmer. 00:25:09 ayrnieu: ..and additionally, CL/Scheme allows for extremely flexible data structures and handling 00:25:50 ayrnieu: and for Scheme, the first-class continuations add to how code is executed and software is designed. 00:25:59 ayrnieu: similarly, how would you describe Haskell/SML? 00:27:01 I would describe ML as above, and then Haskell as "ML ... in Candy Land! :D" - as narrowly worthwhile a playground of language design as befunge. 00:27:12 ayrnieu: I used to be enamored with the Haskell type pattern matchers; but in time was writing CL such that they didn't make as much sense vs the way problems tended to get molded with macros. That may be why they haven't taken on more in idiomatic CL code. 00:27:46 this is off the current topic sorta, but for a few days I tried understanding how to maniplulate language with abstract syntax trees in .NET and that's another time I really learned to appreciate lisp's neutral syntax 00:28:04 moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 00:28:39 ayrnieu: based on what you said, i do not see many problems that haskell/sml would be good at solving. 00:28:46 i mean, distinguishingly good 00:28:53 BW - when you define a type in ML, it looks like a picture of the type, but you can think of it as code that defines constructors, (just "hello") returning a (maybe string) type, and that also expands the pattern-matcher so that you can match (just s) -> s 00:28:55 you can actually see what's going on with backquote comma, as opposed to having to look at it in an inspector 00:29:16 BW - the constructors and the extension to the pattern-matcher use the same names, but a pattern isn't executed. 00:29:35 James_Astro [n=chatzill@pool-71-163-134-190.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:46 ok 00:29:54 Lisp sucks 00:30:03 james_astro: why? 00:30:11 ok, this is getting out of hand 00:30:23 i'm actually starting to appreciate C++ more now that I use it and then appreciate Lisp even more 00:30:29 lets not turn this into c.l.l here! 00:30:46 yah guys learn a real language like c++ 00:30:56 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 00:31:10 james_astro: why is it a real language, i presume you mean as opposed to lisp? 00:31:11 James_Astro: please, no trolling. 00:31:16 let him stay a while 00:31:23 ayrnieu: so you view SML/Haskell as beneficial primarily through its type system? 00:31:28 BW^-: don't feed the troll 00:31:53 stassats: there is possibility of enlightenment even for trolls. 00:31:57 calling me a troll is an insult 00:32:06 James_Astro: To trolls 00:32:08 this outrage will not be tolerated! 00:32:09 weak troll at that. 00:32:13 indeed. 00:32:18 James_Astro, that is trolling 00:32:19 James_Astro: try harder? 00:32:23 jk 00:32:25 i will leave now 00:32:27 BW - primarily through the architecture that they provide the type system. 00:32:29 James_Astro: REAL PROGRAMMERS write their apps in octal using switches on system console. Or twiddle the bits with magnets. So stop trolling about real programming languages 00:32:32 james_astro: i have no idea why you say lisp sucks, 00:32:32 -!- James_Astro [n=chatzill@pool-71-163-134-190.nycmny.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 00:32:42 BW^-: please. 00:33:02 .. 00:33:06 drewc:noted 00:33:17 i don't want to have to be 'that guy', so lets stay on topic all... k? :) 00:33:25 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:33:29 C++ is better than autolisp, I hate to say 00:33:32 drewc: you're totally already "The Guy" 00:33:41 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonw@p54977C33.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:33:44 ;) 00:34:11 in autolisp unbound symbols evaluate to nil 00:34:12 ayrnieu: ? 00:34:14 manic12_: Any examples? I'm pretty certain it's easier for me to understand when I stumble upon fragments of AutoLISP than when I stumble upon fragments of C++ :) 00:34:22 how's that for debugability 00:34:38 sykopomp: only in this timezone .. which is pretty lax compared to the EU ;) 00:34:58 so if you misspell a symbol, and you don't realize it you just get nil 00:35:01 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:35:14 that's bad 00:35:15 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:57 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:36:37 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:36:39 the comment i am trying to make is that I have been a CL programmer for over a decade and then when i forced myself to learn C++ it wasn't as bad as I thought, but still makes me appreciate lisp all the more 00:36:39 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:36:43 BW - the declarative type definitions that create constructors and extend the pattern matcher, you can whip up in CL relatively easily. An ML implementation will do relatively hard work to make this space and time efficient, and safe. 00:37:20 by 'architecture' I mean this 'relatively hard work' that the written language assumes. 00:38:12 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:38:37 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:39:04 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:39:23 i'm worried that I am becomming C++ ized by working with this big C++ library :/ 00:39:25 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:40:01 somebody is going to look at my lisp code and say, "that's C code written in Lisp" 00:40:14 and i will be ashamed 00:40:14 manic12_: Do you need to use external applications to parse C++ compiler errors yet? 00:40:25 no 00:40:31 -!- holycow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:40:48 ayrnieu: interesting. 00:40:48 manic12_: Then it's not so bad. I heard horror stories of template abuse :) 00:40:50 ayrnieu: do you see anything more as interesting about SML/Haskell than the type system? 00:40:52 -!- dfox [n=dfox@rb5cm232.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:41:02 BW^-: in Haskell, Monads 00:41:03 ayrnieu: that is, with the background of CL/Scheme , and, C++/Java? 00:42:19 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-156-149.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 00:42:30 i don't like the fact that lisp lives surrounded by C and C++ code, because then in makes the Lisp look bad, we need symbolics back 00:42:52 manic12_: Played with snap4 yet? 00:42:58 yes 00:43:09 with permission of course 00:43:13 -!- sellout [n=greg@cpe-67-241-206-65.maine.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:43:24 parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-153.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:48 There was this lisp OS in the works... Moz-something ? 00:44:01 <_death> movitz 00:44:14 ah, Movitz 00:44:18 p_l: in lisp terms, what is a monad? (i see its wikipedia page here) 00:44:22 and nyef had something cool going on with sbcl 00:44:25 BW - where 'interesting' means "attractive, something I'd like to reinvent also outside of this language": no. 00:44:38 If you want to take sbcl-os and run with it, feel free. 00:44:48 ayrnieu: ok 00:44:52 BW^-: Don't ask me to explain. I've got usage somewhat covered, I'm still far from understanding it :) 00:44:52 divia [n=divia@adsl-76-254-61-64.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:58 i should go see what's wrong with the power supply on my xl 00:45:16 p_l: can you describe what you know? 00:45:35 p_l: seems to be conceptually related to first-class procedures and closures ?? 00:45:56 ayrnieu: ok. 00:46:10 BW^-: Not much. It's something from category theory, and it allowed them to implement I/O, mutable state etc. in pure language without breaking purity 00:46:27 ayrnieu: what are SML/Haskell:s capabilities of abstraction? by abstraction i think of first-class procedures, closures, macros 00:46:51 ..and related, everything evaluates 00:47:03 BW^-, Also type classes 00:47:14 BW - please ask #haskell , #sml , #ocaml about this. 00:47:20 ayrnieu: ok 00:47:31 BW^-: There are first class functions, continuations, monads, type system (if you are mad enough, it will be turing complete), Template Haskell... 00:47:32 ayrnieu: thank you for answering, i feel i got a picture now. :) 00:48:35 p_l: do they get anywhere close how conceptually singular CL/Scheme is? 00:49:26 p_l: what i meant by conceptually singular is, CL/Scheme syntax tends to allow for solving an incredible amount of problems using a minimal syntax 00:49:38 p_l: does sml/haskell have anything like that? 00:49:45 BW^-: Don't ask me that. I consider Haskell and Lisp as two very different languages, which have different philosophy 00:50:01 Haskell has an elegant syntax, much more mathematical than lisp. 00:50:16 -!- X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f08:b3d:0:0:0:2] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:50:19 p_l: how would you summarize these two, what's different? 00:50:27 didn't take long for this to turn into cll 00:50:28 hm 00:50:33 BW^-: Haskell got a hard on for being executable maths :P 00:50:36 Haskell's position on syntax is extremeward of Perl's. But Perl's heavy syntax comes from a thoughtful linguist and Haskell's heavy syntax comes from mathematicians. 00:50:42 syskopomp: cll? common language.. what? 00:50:51 comp.lang.lisp 00:51:37 <_death> parodyoflanguage: so elegant and mathematical that you can't write +5.0 to designate the number 00:51:43 p_l: can you get anything like the level of recursion of Lisp in SML/Haskell? 00:51:51 p_l haskell is statically typed, has awkward syntax, lacks lisp macros 00:52:15 p_l,parodyoflanguage: or rather, i meant, everything evaluates 00:52:29 level of recursion? 00:52:44 BW^-: Well, I guess you could say that everything evaluates there in some way. 00:53:15 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:53:24 xristos: I don't have problems with that - I find both Lisp and Haskell's approach nice, and I prefer not to flame one over another 00:53:46 xristos: However, avoiding flamewars doesn't always work... 00:54:03 p_l: in a limited sense, everything evaluates in Java as well. where is SML/Haskell on the scale? 00:54:06 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-200-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:21 the reason i asked of sml/haskell here, is because i have understood how CL/Scheme uniquely solves a number of problems. 00:54:27 bw is like some kind of devious eliza/doctor based troll. 00:54:28 BW^-: Somewhere together with high-level maths 00:54:33 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:55:23 BW^-: are there not ML/Haskell channels where you can ask about those languages? 00:55:24 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:55:25 i am curious to understand if sml/haskell solves anything particularly well 00:55:25 yes, yes, everything is relative, you cannot make value judgements about language, there is no bad or good, you have only trade-offs, and yet we are all capable of saying that BASIC is exccrecable and worthless, and we do not find people defending COBOL for also being turing-complete. 00:55:41 mm, you're right 00:55:44 i think i got the point now. 00:55:46 p_l and i wouldnt call haskell 'executable maths' either 00:55:48 the basic things. 00:55:53 thanks guys :) 00:55:55 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:56:02 unless we are talking about the original haskell (which was written in CL), we are far off topic. 00:56:10 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 00:56:14 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:56:26 EOT :) 00:56:31 mm. 00:56:45 drewc: really! That's interesting. Add that to the list I guess (right alongside javascript!) 00:56:47 (the reason i asked about this topic here was, i went to #haskell a week ago and had no answer. so thanks guys.) 00:56:56 bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:57:08 #haskell is usually pretty active. I'd try again. 00:57:17 BW^-: http://www.scs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/code/syntax/haskell/0.html is probably all the answer you'd ever need :) 00:58:17 i think it was written in a portable mixture of scheme and common lisp, with mutual emulation layers 00:58:39 BW - take a look at Let Over Lambda. Don't take its advice to use vi, or to drop *earmuffs*. Do consider what it says about macros (well, that is the entire book). 00:59:21 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Operation timed out] 00:59:46 (when you keep saying that 'you know what CL/Scheme is good for', I doubt you already for the conflation.) 01:00:21 ayrnieu: there you go again! What does LOL say about macros that is so good? :) 01:00:34 ayrnieu did he release it for free on the web ? 01:01:02 ayrnieu: there are much better books to recommend, IMO. Especially to newbies 01:01:24 what better book would you give to someone who 'knows what CL/Scheme is good for'? 01:01:44 AMOP 01:01:54 (incf drewc) 01:01:58 xristos - he's put up four chapters, so far: http://letoverlambda.com/index.cl/toc 01:01:58 AMOP is incredible 01:02:14 amop is one of my favorites too 01:02:17 <_death> ayrnieu: didn't you mention that you are planning on writing a review? my current judgment of whether the book is worth my time is based on the source code available, and is in the negative 01:02:58 ayrnieu: anything. a cook book. let them learn how to make the perfect soufflé 01:03:00 ayrnieu: ..i developed a lot in lisp. 01:03:02 -!- rotty [n=rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:03:17 fe[nl]ix: amen! 01:03:24 ayrnieu PAIP from peter norvig is highly recommended 01:03:48 thanks 01:03:50 amop is an eye opener but i'd reap paip as being more introductory and full of excellent lisp examples 01:03:55 xristos: PAIP is really important, but if someone 'know what CL/Scheme is good for', i'd assume they've already read PAIP 01:03:57 death - I'm not reading it very quickly. But look, Alexandria comes with two macro-writing tools: one to bind symbols to gensyms, and once-only. Look at his g! and o! stuff in chapter 3, which is online. 01:03:57 , amop 01:04:12 minion, tell parodyoflanguage about amop 01:04:13 parodyoflanguage: please see amop: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See the sepcification of MOP at http://www.lisp.org/mop/ 01:04:17 ayrnieu: those are horrible ideas both. 01:04:39 Thank you minion. 01:04:48 ayrnieu: there are better solutions for the same problem, ie with-gensyms and once-only 01:05:15 drewc - uh, better in what sense? 01:05:40 meaningful names 01:05:42 Do you mean that his particular syntax is bad, that his code is bad, or that automatic once-only gensyms are bad? 01:05:49 -!- maxote [n=el_ermit@84.79.67.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:06:06 ayrnieu: they don't add uneeded syntax, can be code walked, have meaniful names, and are widely accepted and known as 'standard' common lisp 01:06:08 fenix - automatic gensyms can be meaningfully named. His example just demands this prefix. 01:06:46 maxote [n=maxote@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 01:06:46 azanar [n=edcarrel@edm1a.mavericklabel.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:50 ayrnieu: i think splitting symbols for meaning is generally frowned upon 01:07:03 ayrnieu: what do you gain over the accepted solutions using his idea? 01:07:23 drewc - I gain ease in writing macros, which is the purpose of those tools in Alexandria. 01:07:54 ayrnieu: and i lose ease i reading macros. 01:08:07 ayrnieu: you can guess which is more important to me. 01:08:21 rotty [n=rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has joined #lisp 01:08:31 if you need a self-esteem boost, #perl is thataway ---> :D 01:08:40 Chapter 3 of LOL is not "copy my bag of tricks". Just the other day, pre-LOL, I punted on automatic determination of arity in a lambda syntax. It wasn't important, but I didn't know how to do it except difficultly. 01:09:23 mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 01:09:28 ayrnieu: blind leading the blind my friend. 01:10:09 ayrnieu: i don't mean to discourage you in any way, these are just my opinions. 01:10:33 but i have worked with, employed, drank with and talked to a lot of lispers. 01:11:36 bah. You've just said that you 'lose [reading] ease' on a defmacro-like that gives you automatic once-only gensyms, but not with these extra once-only and with-gensyms (sp) forms. 01:11:36 well, I take back the bah. 01:12:31 defmacro-like-that-gives-you-automatic-once-only-gensyms 01:12:40 <_death> ayrnieu: I'm not sure what you think these examples should tell me about the book 01:12:43 -!- bombshelter13__ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:13:12 those forms are not 'extra', they are meaningful and tell me one hell of a lot about the code that follows. 01:13:14 thanks guys. later. 01:13:22 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:14:04 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@151.80.9.94] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 01:14:48 "Code should be written primarily for humans to read, and only incidentally for computers to execute." 01:14:51 You have to know them the same way you have to know this form. So it's two verses one, and the two you only need in an environment where everyone's decided to repeat themselves in their macro definitions. 01:14:54 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:15:03 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:15:03 ayrnieu: i think it's really cool that lisp allows you to do such things, and i think it's wonderful that you learned such things. what i don't think is that such things are a good idea. 01:15:05 lisp has the potential to be messy and confusing enough without compounding it with extra syntax that has no benefit. 01:16:01 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:16:07 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:16:13 ayrnieu: all this focus on little tiny syntax dealings makes me think the author has lost the plot. 01:16:15 -!- divia [n=divia@adsl-76-254-61-64.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:17:03 the g!-syntax was just a useful tool to remove the bazillion gensyms/with-gensyms in the rest of the book. The "plot" of LoL is in places like chapter 6 01:17:24 If it takes six chapters to get going, is it really worth it? 01:17:36 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-200-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:17:38 What is the plot of LOL. that's what i want to know. 01:17:55 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-200-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 01:19:01 nyef - it doesn't. #lisp is taking the gimlet eye to the book, such that Chapter 3 has just been described as having "all this focus on little tiny syntax dealings". 01:19:53 It's funny, when you read it, the author doesn't *seem* to say things like "this is really verbose, so let's make a terse version." 01:20:34 *_3b* thinks dealing with terse/verbose should be an editor problem. 01:20:54 There's an expected utility function here, though. 01:21:07 We can only read N chapters of the book for free, and if we want more we need to pay for it. 01:21:25 I won't say that there no distinction between an opposition to defmacro/g! and an opposition to, say, backquotes. (Why not (list 'foo bar) !?) It's a linguistic issue at the end of the day, it's what you make your programs out of, and 'optimizations' of it are not free. 01:22:20 The issue is that what we can read doesn't suggest to a lot of us that buying the whole book will be worth the cover price. 01:22:25 <_death> I don't see how these macros eliminate repetition.. in fact, if I understand them correctly, they introduce reptition, since you have to rename all relevant references to their g! counterparts, i.e. repeat their embellishment 01:22:27 But this is why I say that LOL is not some guy's toolchest that he's letting you dig through. 01:22:35 I know of 2 reviews of the book online by people who've claimed to have read the book. I've found the commentary on the online chapters to be somewhere between spelling flames and "too many parentheses" complaints. Ultimately, probably the author's fault for putting a subset online. 01:23:35 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has quit [No route to host] 01:23:39 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-226-170.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:25:33 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-53-96.ucr.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:25:52 I mean, not his fault for putting too little of the book online; but for putting ANY of it online 01:26:45 dfox [n=dfox@rb5cm232.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 01:28:12 maybe it's his fault for letting people know, early, that he does not understand CL 01:28:25 that's what turned me off. 01:28:56 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 01:29:56 yyyeah. 01:30:04 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 01:30:23 ayrnieu: not understanding the purpose of earmuffs is a pretty big oversight. 01:30:40 Christ 01:30:55 defend that all you want... but gimme a break. 01:30:58 drewc - disagreeing with a convention is not a "I do not understand CL" sign. 01:31:07 <_3b> speaking of earmuffs, is there any point in trying to limit special declarations to aparticular function vs. just declaiming it globally 01:31:08 what are earmuffs (if they are not to keep ears warm)? 01:31:48 manic - (defvar *x1* ...) 01:31:48 ayrnieu: it's not a simple disagreement. the approach he advocates is completely broken. this is not an opinion. 01:31:49 <_death> manic12: the asterisks that are part of special variable names 01:31:55 ah 01:32:15 drewc - you mean, the 'approach' of "I am not going to use earmuffs in this book."? 01:32:21 do any of you all also use +some-constant+ ? 01:32:29 manic - yes. 01:32:41 I've actually seen +foo+ used for dynamic variables used. 01:32:48 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@97-93-111-16.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:32:49 _3b: It's done occasionally, but it's rare. 01:32:58 ayrnieu: yes, that approach. Books are supposed to be for learning what to do. 01:33:07 <_3b> nyef: declaring locally is rare you mean? 01:33:07 i've seen $foo used as well 01:33:13 <_death> sykopomp: usually because the "constant" is too complex to be a constant 01:33:14 maxima? 01:33:23 _3b: Yeah, a local special declaration is fairly rare. 01:33:37 _3b: i actually use declare special a lot. 01:33:50 drewc - have you really read LOL? 01:33:58 _death: nah, it was actually being used as a special variable. They were regularly created in LETs and (declare (special foo))'d. 01:34:02 <_3b> drewc: any particular benefits of doing so? 01:34:08 <_death> sykopomp: ouch 01:34:11 although I don't know how rare the latter is. I've never found a reason to do it. 01:34:24 anybody here use SWIG? 01:34:37 _death: my point is mostly that while conventions are useful, not everyone follows them, and I don't see much of a point in enforcing them. 01:34:44 ayrnieu: yes, i have. I read a copy of someone elses. I did not read it in-depth as i value my time. 01:34:47 Specially socially (as is the case with LOL) 01:34:50 there was a movie, 'Reign of Fire', where dragons come out of the ground and then pretty much rape the earth. The *advertisements* for RoF suggested that the dragons were very intelligent. The movie had none of this. 01:34:54 My review is the one on Amazon.com fwiw - to say any more would be either repeating myself or typing out the book for myself. 01:35:13 _3b: i think it documents that the special is only used within a certain call stack 01:35:15 otoh, denying the purpose of the convention, specially in a book meant for teaching how to use the language, seems silly. 01:35:37 So what did the reviewers say about RoF? They said the dragons were dumb! It was very confusing to them! Some stupid marketer put a frame on the movie for them and they then couldn't see it for that. 01:35:41 for example, I (had) this convention for a while where I would wrap all my class names with a-la-dylan. 01:35:45 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-196-136.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:35:46 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177156171.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 01:36:07 and I liked it, but I wouldn't use it anywhere outside my own code, and probably not recommend it for others... 01:36:22 I'm a Dylan programmer, but I wouldn't do that in CL 01:36:27 This is the only way I can read 'reviews' like Xach's, or correspond drewc's comments with is not-thorough read of the book, with the book itself. 01:36:41 I've never touched Dylan in my life. It just seemed like a nice idea and I found it useful in my own code. 01:36:44 without ascribing malice. This is how amazingly off-base they are. 01:37:00 <_death> sykopomp: I guess what drewc is trying to say here is that a book is an instrument of education, and that a convention for special variables exists for a reason (a good one).. ignoring the convention and the problem it attempts to solve earns some bad points 01:37:17 I don't really want to see signs of the Java monoculture in a nice place like Lisp code. 01:37:21 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:37:39 _3b: also, why pollute the global environment :) 01:37:43 encouraging good style is one thing, attacking others for breaking conventions is meh. 01:37:55 Ever end up reading a pro/vs/anti lisp article where the conversation is about all the da** parentheses? That's about where Let over Lambda discussion seems to be. 01:38:05 ayrnieu: you seem to have a persecution complex, but have not made a sound technical argument here. I accept that, if you did not already know about the features of lisp that he expounds on, LOL might be worth reading. 01:38:12 <_3b> drewc: mainly to avoid having to type the declare every time :) 01:38:14 oh, let over lambda? 01:38:21 I took one look at that book's description 01:38:28 "Only the top percentile of programmers use lisp and if you can understand this book you are in the top percentile of lisp programmers." 01:38:29 what is the consensus on foreign functions? 01:38:32 and completely ignored it forever. 01:38:39 _3b: fair enough.. not a valid argument IMO. I like the extra documentation the declare provides. 01:38:49 drewc - without this idea of "Xach must've had a really big frame", I would read his review as malicious Fud. There's no 'persecution complex' when I'm not being persecuted, there's just shocking error. 01:39:15 <_3b> drewc: yeah, in this case everything is in one macro body though, and the declaim would be generated 01:39:25 anyone? 01:39:39 ayrnieu: you have yet to give any convincing arguments that it is not the author who is in error. 01:39:43 manic - use CFFI 01:40:09 drewc - uh, about earmuffs? I'm not defending them. The first thing I said was "yeah, he's wrong about that." 01:40:11 do people prefer to rename foreign functions in lisp conventional style or use the original foreign symbol? 01:40:59 ayrnieu: CFFI for swig is incomplete, too much work to fix right now 01:41:20 gonnylonnykins [n=tommylom@5ad471ca.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:21 ayrnieu: so, you know enough about lisp and lisp code to know that he's wrong there. I submit to you that were you to know a bit more about lisp and lisp code, you may find he's quite wrong elsewhere. 01:41:28 <_3b> manic12_: both styles are common, depends to some extent on whether you are adding a lispy layer with nicer names on top of the bindings or not 01:41:47 manic12_: the little I've seen of CFFI stuff seems to change the lisp name to a lisp-style naming scheme. 01:41:52 ayrnieu: i don't mean any offense, i really have no knowledge of your lisp experience. 01:42:34 <_death> manic12: I would guess that the majority of bindings authors do, in fact, use different names, albeit some are unaware of that fact :) 01:42:39 So far I have been preferring to use the original foreign symbols 01:42:56 drewc, people do not refer to his great and terrible errors. They say: no earmuffs! The author doesn't understand CL! 01:43:00 or in the case of C++, with the class tacked on the front 01:43:37 ayrnieu: are you talking with me or to me? 01:43:51 once a function takes 100% lisp types (no foreign pointers), then i switch to lisp conventional style 01:44:24 <_death> manic12: what would be the symbol for a C name like "hello_world"? 01:44:41 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.28] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:44:56 for me: hello_world 01:45:18 <_death> manic12: well, is your readtable's case :upcase?.. 01:45:39 ayrnieu: and again, not understanding scoping in CL is a serious flaw for the author of a CL book. It's not like we're talking about naming descructive functions with a ! or checking for (not (null ...)). 01:45:51 drewc - a little of both, so I'll let this conversation time out. But, you referred to my poor defense of LOL. Please consider that "LOL is worthless" is also a position that must be defended. And that, right now, the defense is "He doesn't use earmuffs." 01:45:51 _death, no, not usually 01:46:04 drewc - "he doesn't use earmuffs" does not imply "not understanding scoping". 01:46:16 ayrnieu: no, the defense is 'he does not understand lisp' 01:46:23 <_death> manic12: then I conjecture many Lisp programmers would find your bindings inconvenient to use 01:46:43 ayrnieu: you cannot possibly tell me that gives you any confidence in the rest of his opinions. 01:46:45 _death: they are not intended to be used by lisp programmers 01:46:59 drewc - then the defense is based on your psychic powers? Or... is it actually based on "he doesn't use earmuffs"? 01:47:37 i was saying earlier that interfacing with this C++ stuff has made my lisp code look like C 01:47:40 <_death> manic12: I guess you mean to say that you always write a Lispy interface in addition to the bindings 01:47:42 Oh good grief. I am well sick of reading this argument, about earmuffs or otherwise. 01:47:43 <_3b> ayrnieu: he also complained about the g! and o! stuff, not just earmuffs :) 01:47:46 ayrnieu: no .. he also doesn't use once-only or with-unique-names 01:47:52 _death: eventually 01:48:08 ayrnieu: you seem to be stuck on the earmuffs, not it. 01:48:10 not i 01:48:22 funny, I've never brought them up. 01:48:26 sign 01:48:30 sorry. 01:48:32 sigh 01:49:31 _death, the interface i would like to provide to the lisp programmer in the end should not smell like C++ 01:49:43 -!- puchacz_ [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:49:52 but initially it looks almost exactly like the C++ 01:50:29 <_3b> manic12_: i like nice names in a specific package for the low level bindings 01:51:08 <_death> manic12: that's the approach I usually take, as well.. but I have no problem using Lispier names for the low-level interface 01:51:30 *_3b* tends to assume the high level version won't be perfect though, and so people will want to use the low level api to implement alternate high level code 01:51:47 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:52:11 I have one class: IwVector3d which has no vtable and has public: x; y; z; 01:52:42 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@97-93-111-16.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [] 01:52:48 to Allegro I can pass in a (make-array 3 :element-type 'double-float) 01:53:04 and it doesn't know the difference 01:53:08 -!- nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:53:13 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-3fde5fac3e491c73] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:53:26 but it makes things weird with garbage collection 01:53:44 so I separate the C++ and the lisp 01:54:29 <_3b> that sounds like it would be part of the kind of api where i'd want low level access 01:54:32 Anyone who passes a lisp object to foreign code is, of course, living in a state of sin. 01:54:43 _3b: that's totally true, but the user will be in C++ land 01:55:31 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-145-221.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 01:55:47 <_3b> manic12_: i was thinking more 'ffi land' than c++ land 01:56:06 I have two choices, the realistic one, i.e. learn to appreciate something of C++, or the unrealistic one: rewrite in Lisp 01:56:09 nullman` [n=nullman@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:59 *_3b* votes rewrite in lisp, unless it has a lot of existing optimization effort in the existing code or something 01:57:10 *_3b* doesn't know the domain though 01:57:22 it took 14 or more years to write the library 01:57:29 <_3b> which lib? 01:57:50 manic12_: is that because it's inherently tough, or because it took a while to figure out what it was supposed to do? 01:58:00 <_3b> (or because it was written in c++) 01:58:11 (i wasn't going to say it) 01:58:11 it's a non-manifold-topology solid model that uses nurbs 01:58:58 *modeler 01:59:42 drewc: it's a really tough domain 01:59:51 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A94C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:59:52 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:59:55 one of the main authors does know CL 02:00:09 <_3b> so you are thinking more of scripting it from lisp, than something you would use to help write lisp apps? 02:00:55 _3b: I'm plugging it into Mirai to do mechanical CAD 02:01:13 -!- nullman [n=nullman@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:01:51 <_3b> sounds like fun :) 02:01:56 it is 02:02:12 -!- tommylommykins [n=tommylom@5ad471ca.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:02:23 *_3b* needs to stop getting stuck on this silly flash stuff and get back to 3d 02:03:36 I wish there were a better venue to discuss this stuff, since #lisp seems to be language people and implementor people not app people as much 02:03:56 manic12_: i'm an app person! :) 02:03:57 <_3b> then i could get stuck on the exact same type of problem trying to compile to glsl instead :) 02:04:05 that said, FFI to C++ is not my domain at all. 02:04:48 gray streams over postgresql 'bytea' columns .. that what i'm doing. 02:05:24 I chose Mikel Bancroft's SWIG extensions for Allegro because they are the most advanced 02:06:48 once we get the solid model plugged in, i will be installing a kbe engine 02:06:54 bah *modeler 02:07:18 slackjaw [n=jolyonw@p54977C33.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:08 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.62] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:11:29 [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.62] has joined #lisp 02:11:46 see if #lisp is not battling over language concepts it gets silent 02:12:33 is there a bot in here ? 02:12:45 several 02:12:50 minion: tell sepult about minion 02:12:51 to ask language fundamentals and so on ? 02:12:51 sepult: have a look at minion: minion is an IRC robot (who prefers the term "electronically composed.") For online help, try /msg minion help Minion is hosted at common-lisp.net and is usually connected to the #lisp IRC channel. http://www.cliki.net/minion 02:13:32 thank you 02:13:48 <_death> manic12: I usually write C interface to the C++ code and write Lisp bindings to that 02:13:51 sepult: what do you mean by language fundementals. minion really doesn't do such things. there is specbot though. 02:14:15 clhs lambda 02:14:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm 02:14:33 that's about as fundamental as it gets :) 02:14:39 _death, SWIG writes the C layer for you and then also writes the lisp wrappers for the C layer to make it object oriented again on the lisp side 02:14:55 manic12_: how well does that work? 02:15:08 <_death> manic12: yes, I didn't really like what SWIG generated when I tried it 02:15:12 pretty damn good 02:15:41 it has accelerated my development a lot 02:16:10 _death: you can always customize what swig generates 02:16:34 sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-151-201.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 02:17:07 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host95.190-137-241.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:17:26 <_death> manic12: sure.. in my case the libraries were either small enough or I didn't need complete bindings 02:17:27 drewc: i mean something like looking up the meaning or the definition of progn or other functions etc... 02:18:24 _death, swig is good for those too, but it is especially useful for this large stuff 02:18:46 -!- gonnylonnykins [n=tommylom@5ad471ca.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:21:16 Tordek [n=tordek@host95.190-137-241.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 02:22:32 sepult_: you can use specbot for that. try /msg specbot help and look at the clhs. 02:22:43 or just look at the clhs. 02:22:46 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:22:47 minion: clhs? 02:22:48 clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS . 02:24:02 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:27:53 -!- Haplo [n=hatchond@cau33-1-82-66-14-55.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:30:11 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-196-136.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:30 -!- exu0 [n=u@dslb-084-056-157-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 02:31:23 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-196-136.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:31:27 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 02:33:07 -!- sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-156-149.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:35:54 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:39:11 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-200-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:40:14 tommylommykins [n=tommylom@5ad471ca.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 02:40:39 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 02:42:04 zoe [n=zoe@c-67-166-12-161.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:42:34 Anyone familiar with SBCL? I'm trying to load a file from the command line and feeling stupid :/ 02:43:04 (load "foo.lisp") ? 02:43:24 more like $>sbcl something something foo.lisp? 02:43:34 Or are you looking for something more like sbcl --load foo.lisp ? 02:43:47 oh, does that do it? 02:43:54 (Or even sbcl --eval "(load \"foo.lisp\")" ?) 02:46:21 hmm... ok, let me rephrase, I would like to load and evaluate the file from the command line 02:46:41 s/rephrase/clarify/ 02:47:03 By definition, to "load" a file is to evaluate each of the forms within the file in turn. 02:47:11 --load and --eval ... both load the file, but then do not evaluate the three function calls at the end 02:47:29 Are you sure about that? 02:47:50 How do you know they aren't evaluated? 02:47:57 well, the main call prints stuff to the screen :/ 02:48:18 and asks for input also 02:48:49 what seems to be happening is that the file compiles, then pauses 02:49:13 and if I enter something, then it proceeds, except immediately drops to debugger afterwords 02:50:23 http://paste.lisp.org/display/75890 This contains the tail end of the feedback sbcl gives me 02:50:35 the "moo" was something I typed in 02:50:54 "Enter file to parse:" is what it is supposed to print 02:51:03 Ahh. 02:51:08 clhs force-output 02:51:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm 02:51:12 Output is line-buffered. 02:51:27 aah 02:51:35 so I need to clear the buffer first 02:52:15 gonnylonnykins [n=tommylom@5ad471ca.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 02:52:26 You can tell that your program is operating because it waited for input, and then tried to open a file as you requested, and it's still processing that (load "main.lisp"). 02:53:20 Oh, and a backtrace might have told you something useful about what was going on as well. 02:53:46 I am not very well versed on the debugger 02:53:50 (Even though I'm having a hard time keeping any kind of faith with SBCL's debugger right now.) 02:53:57 slightly afraid of it actually :/ 02:54:39 It can be scary, but basic operation is simple enough that you'll get comfortable in little time. 02:54:53 I rarely do more than ask for a backtrace and pick a restart myself. 02:55:31 I try to avoid doing anything with it 02:55:42 anyway, that works very well... with just one last question... 02:55:52 The really scary parts come when you try to figure out how the debugger works and how to improve it... 02:55:53 after the part I want to run, it drops to the REPL... 02:56:06 Add an (sb-ext:quit) at the end of your file? 02:56:10 zoe - if you want that to not happen, use --script instead. 02:56:12 can I just use the normal sbcl call (sb-ext:quit) to end it then 02:56:19 -!- Modius [n=Modius@69.150.59.146] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:56:38 ayrnieu, that drops to the REPL instead of evaluating :/ 02:56:40 idk why 02:56:46 zoe, how are you using it? 02:56:55 Or --script is a fairly recent addition. Not sure how to use it, myself. 02:56:57 sbcl --script main.lisp 02:57:23 I wouldn't be surprised if it's supposed to be for a shebang line. 02:57:35 It is. 02:57:35 the sbcl manual seems to think so 02:57:48 anyway, its not a problem to do (sb-ext:quit) on the end 02:58:30 zoe - but that WFM. Can you paste main.lisp ? 02:58:36 zoe - and what version of SBCL are you using? 02:58:36 sure ^_^ 02:58:50 1.0.18.debian 02:59:20 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-222-63.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:25 Not the last scripty thing I did with SBCL, but a recentish (last august) thing I did was http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/crtc-lcd-test.lisp but I probably cheated a bit with the header. 02:59:38 http://paste.lisp.org/display/75890#1 03:00:13 its prolly not very lisp-y, but I've only started using lisp seriously recently 03:01:47 must be a bug in 1.0.18 03:02:35 1.0.18 is, what, seven months old now? --script was probably new then. 03:02:48 oh well, as long as I can give this to my prof. and tell him how to run it, I'll be fine 03:02:54 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:05 seven months? thats about in line with ubuntu update schedule :/ 03:03:46 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:53 zoe: We should probably talk to you about paren-balancing editors and not leaving bare close-parens lying around on their own lines... 03:04:29 lol, I dun trade lisp with other people very much, so I do that 03:04:39 even though I have paren balancing 03:04:55 And LOOP COLLECT and LOOP APPEND. 03:05:17 nyef, http://paste.lisp.org/display/75780 pulls --script and --noinform into toplevel.lisp so that fph could sbcl --userinit ... --script ; but it breaks every script that uses --noinform and carefully puts it on the 'runtime.c' side of the arguments. 03:05:20 Oh, wait, I see a loop collecting... 03:05:53 zoe: when you get used to really using paren balancing, you'll see those floating close parens as something to not waste your time on managing 03:05:54 there is LOOP APPEND? 03:06:25 clhs 6.1.3.2 03:06:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/06_acb.htm 03:06:32 kpreid, lol, I guess I'm too lazy to care right now ^_^ 03:06:45 Actually, 6.1.3 is value accumulation clauses. 03:07:12 oh, loop append would have been useful there 03:07:12 zoe - the serious problem with your program is that you have those defvar's at top, which establish variables like 'len', 'target', etc. 03:07:14 collect, append, nconc, count, maximize, minimize and sum, with gerund forms of each. 03:07:18 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:07:53 ayrnieu, oh? Why is this a problem? 03:08:15 zoe - defvar establishes 'special variables' that have dynamic scope. If you (let ((len (some-len-thing))) ...) later on, you're giving your defvar'd len a temporary binding and not introducing a new one. 03:08:42 hhmm 03:08:45 And, at least for target, you're only using it in a lexical context, so it doesn't even help, just makes your program slower. 03:08:55 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-145-221.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:09:00 oh 03:09:06 -!- tommylommykins [n=tommylom@5ad471ca.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:09:17 tommylommykins [n=tommylom@5ad471ca.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 03:11:11 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:11:38 well, it appears to work with all of those commented 03:11:49 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0BF3.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:11:51 I want to be very careful with it :/ 03:11:58 (format t "String ~A is~[ not~;~]accepted.~%" (start) (parse)) 03:12:17 lol 03:13:21 the value of T is not of type REAL 03:13:22 it say 03:13:43 how do you use it? 03:14:34 what? I just put in nyef's line instead of mine, at the end 03:14:38 and thats the error it gave me 03:15:15 That's wierd. 03:15:31 oh, (if (parse) 0 1) 03:16:03 No, I screwed up. 03:16:07 ah, but then, that only introduces another if on to what i have 03:16:08 It's ~:[, not ~[. 03:16:08 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["goodday."] 03:16:21 zoe - there's a quote about FORMAT, something like "My manual falls open to the pages on FORMAT." 03:16:33 clhs ~[ 03:16:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgb.htm 03:17:31 I also forgot a space in the format string. Should be fairly obvious where. 03:17:34 ah, it's PG: "An eminent Lisp hacker told me that his copy of CLTL falls open to the section format. Mine too." 03:17:47 ok, it looks pretty good with the : in there 03:18:12 Hell, my copy of CLtL falls open to the section on format, and I don't use it as a reference. My excuse is that I bought it used. 03:18:19 -!- gonnylonnykins [n=tommylom@5ad471ca.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:18:39 thanks nyef that looks a lot cleaner now 03:18:52 anyways, I need to go, but thanks for all the help ^__^ 03:18:54 bye 03:18:58 -!- zoe [n=zoe@c-67-166-12-161.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:19:43 This control flow is wierd, though... 03:20:57 Hell, the data flow is wierd as well. 03:25:58 Okay, rather than spend any more time trying to figure out WTF that program is supposed to do, I'm going to bed. 03:26:02 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-223-182-13.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 03:27:55 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 03:32:37 *p_l* needs to go to the library and check how CLtL copies fall 03:47:38 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:51:26 vostibackle [n=vosti@cpe-24-28-81-28.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:51:50 is there some reason I might be able to use a macro at the repl, but not be able to use the macro inside a function definition at the repl? 03:52:15 No. 03:54:54 -!- tommylommykins [n=tommylom@5ad471ca.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:59:01 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:07 benny [n=benny@i577A0793.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:00:23 http://paste.lisp.org/display/75893 04:00:43 maybe it's a slime or sbcl problem... I dunno 04:03:20 look at (macroexpand '(for i in (range n) (print i))) 04:05:42 better: (macroexpand-1 '(for i in (range n) (print i))) 04:07:07 so when the macro is expanded, what is n? 04:07:25 n is not important; range is. 04:07:47 (macroexpand-1 '(let ((n 5)) (for i in (range n) (print i)))) 04:08:25 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@97-93-111-16.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:08:25 compare with: (macroexpand-1 '(for i in (range 3) (print i))) 04:09:09 my macroexpand-1 of the let leaves it unchanged 04:09:26 oh, hah, sorry. 04:09:41 but you can see that you get the error in a let just the same. 04:10:01 I guess (integerp (second list)) is not true? 04:10:15 it's true if (integerp 'n) is. 04:10:21 yeah :) 04:10:56 ah (integerp '3) is true 04:13:09 well, it's really (integerp 3); '3 just evaluates to 3 04:13:35 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@97-93-111-16.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [] 04:14:23 thanks 04:19:27 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-196-136.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:08 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:25:47 spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 04:40:57 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host95.190-137-241.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:55:13 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp1-71.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:59:56 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:04:31 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:07:52 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 05:09:10 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-153.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:13:47 -!- azanar [n=edcarrel@edm1a.mavericklabel.com] has quit [] 05:15:31 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 05:26:53 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:56 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:30:46 ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:52 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@97-93-111-16.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:32:59 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@97-93-111-16.static.mtpk.ca.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 05:38:06 -!- phf [n=phf@c-98-231-211-226.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 05:40:31 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:43:07 tcr1 [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 05:46:35 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 05:46:47 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:46:59 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:56:51 tonyb1 [n=fareko@95.56.56.45] has joined #lisp 05:57:49 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 05:58:53 -!- xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:59:19 azanar [n=edcarrel@c-67-183-123-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:11:53 davo [n=davo@ip68-6-224-17.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:34 hi all. i'm trying to learn the basics of lisp and using this simple defun of (defun square (x) (* x x)) on (square (square 1001)), i'm getting 57398561, when it should be a much larger result such as 1004006004000. is my function defined incorrectly? 06:15:31 1004006004001 06:15:36 your function is defined correctly. 06:15:42 1004006004001 here, too. 06:16:36 hm, wonder why i'm getting such a small number... 06:16:41 thanks for checking that 06:16:47 <_3b> are you using common lisp or some other lisp? 06:16:49 davo: uhh, what lisp is this? 06:17:01 i'm pretty sure its clisp 06:17:06 running in emacs 06:17:13 that's elisp 06:17:15 not common lisp 06:17:44 ooh, so i should be running this from the terminal 06:18:03 <_3b> no, running through emacs is good, particularly if you use slime 06:18:32 davo: are you talking about clisp the implementation, or are you using emacs' built-in lisp? 06:19:15 just as I thought.... 06:19:18 as it seems i'm using emacs built-in lisp 06:19:20 this is in elisp: 06:19:29 (square (square 1001)) => 57398561 06:19:46 ah, that's where i'm messing up 06:20:01 i need to switch to slime and clisp, not elisp 06:20:02 :) 06:20:19 thanks sykopomp i would never have expected that :) 06:20:20 -!- tonyb1 [n=fareko@95.56.56.45] has left #lisp 06:20:21 please say CL if you mean the language; clisp is an implementation that you can find at http://clisp.cons.org/ 06:20:35 why does elisp get it wrong? 06:20:43 vosti - it doesn't have bignums. 06:20:45 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:20:49 oh, I see 06:20:50 <_3b> it is correct to 29 bits 06:21:13 davo: clisp is an implementation of the common lisp. We say CL or Common Lisp to refer to the actual language. 06:21:38 <_death> 3b: more like 28 06:22:06 <_3b> _death: probably, i didn't count very carefully :) 06:22:18 sykopomp: ah, ok thanks for pointing that out 06:22:19 _3b: shame on you! 06:22:41 now to see if i can remember how to run slime instead of emacs' built-in lisp... 06:22:53 <_3b> davo: M-x slime 06:22:58 davo: elisp is fine depending on what you want to do, though. If you want to mess around with common lisp, I highly recommend SBCL+slime if you're running on linux or BSD 06:23:03 <_3b> davo: the hard part is configuring it, not running it :) 06:23:20 davo - (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-indentation)) ; then just edit a foo.lisp file 06:23:31 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:35 <_3b> (configuring isn't particularly difficult either though) 06:23:43 _3b: yeah, that whole (setq inferior-lisp-program ...) is a doozy. Took me forever to get it right. 06:24:33 hm, okay i'll try that out and also look into the SBCL+slime that sykopomp referred to 06:25:00 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-37.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:27 ayrnieu: Also recommend slime-asdf to new people 06:25:41 what's slime-asdf?.... 06:25:49 ,load-system repl commands 06:26:13 *ayrnieu* has it, but never used it. 06:26:17 I see. 06:26:58 *_3b* just uses (require ...), or more often (re M-p 06:27:25 slime-asdf does more, it catches all compilation notes comming from compiling the system 06:27:38 <_3b> ah, that sounds more useful 06:28:04 only if you're interested in them, otherwise slime tries to open all files where compiler notes belong to 06:28:31 <_3b> yeah, i could see that being annoying sometimes 06:28:37 also, you get tab completion of system names 06:31:58 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:34:45 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-196-136.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:42:49 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-37.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:43:20 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-37.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:43:30 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:45:39 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has joined #lisp 06:47:17 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:01 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-222-63.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:57:39 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:20:54 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 07:22:07 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-77.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:12 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:29:24 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@221.237.116.157] has joined #lisp 07:33:02 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:14 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-148-37.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:41:34 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:24 Good morning. 07:43:38 xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:02 -!- Nate75Sanders [n=Nate75Sa@cpe-76-88-156-88.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 07:49:02 fph [n=irc@host-206-251-67-254.static.linkline.com] has joined #lisp 07:53:47 -!- fph [n=irc@host-206-251-67-254.static.linkline.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:55:29 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-148-90.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:04:13 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 08:04:40 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:08:17 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:09:03 were there always this many people in #lisp? 08:09:36 no, not always. 08:11:08 lukego_: there was a big bang, and then evolution did the rest 08:11:20 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:12:17 I feel compelled to make a joke about Lisp being a figment from previous universe (with AI Winter being the collapse). But I suck at jokes, so you've got long explanation 08:12:41 how many are there? 08:12:56 /names 08:12:59 264 08:13:11 highest I registered was 325 08:13:35 But I don't have records for long time... 08:14:48 I suppose it could be calculated from the logs 08:16:38 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #lisp 08:17:28 how long has ccl been logging the channel? 08:18:28 sykopomp: I think I started it around October. 08:18:34 the logs from 2001 are 9 MB: http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/old/ 08:18:56 what's new, beach? 08:19:10 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.156.158] has joined #lisp 08:19:20 I'm sitting at home on a friday night reading source code, feeling very nerdy 08:19:30 lukego_: I'm on vacation as of yesterday at 16:50. 08:19:54 not waiting for summertime? 08:19:57 lukego_: where is "home" these days? 08:20:22 homeless, but at least shifting locations at a slightly slower pace. I'm around the start of a month in LA just now. then NZ for a month, then AU. 08:20:50 haha 08:21:01 I used the phrase "between countries" recently 08:21:03 have not yet figured out how to spend a summers month in europe yet but hopefully something will come up :) 08:21:16 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:21:33 antifuchs: did you hear from gigamonkey? 08:21:41 no, not yet 08:21:45 hope I got the right address 08:21:49 I just pinged him 08:21:54 cool 08:22:02 maybe I made it to his spam folder (: 08:23:47 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-148-90.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:24:01 anti: you're still rooted in vienna though right? 08:24:08 mostly, yeah (: 08:24:15 that may change in the near future, though 08:24:21 ->SF ? 08:24:27 probably 08:24:38 or the general vicinity 08:24:50 a happenin' place by all accounts 08:24:56 indeed 08:25:17 and one that doesn't seem to have winters like we've been getting them in austria (: 08:25:25 something I could get used to 08:25:42 -!- azanar [n=edcarrel@c-67-183-123-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:26:04 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-77.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:26:33 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-77.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:20 hmm, if I just take the number of `join' minus the sum of the `quit' and `part' in the log, I get 1760, so clearly that is not a good method. 08:28:38 isn't irc great (: 08:29:06 Sure, but what made you say that? 08:29:48 ah, there are `kick's as well... 08:29:52 I am just thinking about the things you have to keep track of as an irc client. 08:30:24 479 `kick's 08:30:25 yea, and I don't know if administrator kills come with a different verb, too 08:30:56 `mode'? Nah! 08:31:03 ah, they're probably just quits 08:31:16 <_3b> are you logging a quit or whatever for netsplits? 08:31:36 Good question. No idea! 08:33:09 good night (: 08:33:10 <_3b> looks like tunes logs do, if that is what you are using 08:33:18 'night antifuchs 08:33:31 fph [n=irc@host-206-251-67-254.static.linkline.com] has joined #lisp 08:33:35 _3b: that is what I am using. 08:34:37 _3b: but I am assuming that such a quit qill eventually result in a join. 08:34:59 <_3b> right, it would only be a problem if you didn't log them separately 08:35:31 <_3b> client i use, for example, combines them into 1 netsplit message, but it still has a separate join, since netjoins can't be distinguished 08:36:06 Ah, that could definitely be a problem. 08:38:56 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp474.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 08:39:54 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp474.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 08:39:59 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:40:49 ia [n=ia@89.169.189.230] has joined #lisp 08:41:56 42 people joined more than 20 times in 2001. then 211, then 146. 08:42:31 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 08:45:02 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-86-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 08:46:32 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-101-123.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 08:46:48 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0F141.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:49:28 -!- fph [n=irc@host-206-251-67-254.static.linkline.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:50:31 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 08:50:43 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 08:50:46 azanar [n=edcarrel@c-67-183-123-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:41 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:54:32 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:55:02 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:19 fph [n=irc@host-206-251-67-254.static.linkline.com] has joined #lisp 08:58:19 -!- fph [n=irc@host-206-251-67-254.static.linkline.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:00:39 LostMonarch [n=roby@host136-154-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:02:55 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 09:05:03 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F602.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:06:29 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:06:35 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 09:08:39 morning 09:09:21 a question about print-object methods 09:09:46 hello Krystof 09:09:58 hello xof! what's new, on a scale of 1 to 10? 09:10:18 if I have what is essentially a singleton instance of a class, which will always be bound to a special variable, and I want to make the object bound to that special print as something that will read in to the EQ value, with a minimum of potential for confusion 09:10:27 what does the print-object method look like? 09:10:39 -!- rotty [n=rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:10:42 lukego_: mostly scary things, sadly 09:10:48 :( 09:11:55 lukego_: hi! did you get your download cable to run? 09:12:37 hans: howdy! not yet, I just tried once during the week. I'll have another look soon - I've had it working before 09:12:53 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:13:11 I am hacking from 3 different locations now and never have all of the hardware I need in the same place. you would not believe how many usb, vga, dvi, hdmi, etc cables I have.. 09:13:30 lukego_: ok, keep me posted 09:13:30 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-77.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 09:13:48 rotty [n=rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has joined #lisp 09:13:53 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-77.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:13 babycare, later... 09:14:24 Krystof: what's wrong with printing #.*special*? 09:15:00 getting it right when *read-eval is whatever 09:15:36 I don't see how you could get an EQ value at readtime with *read-eval* off. 09:17:05 I guess you could define a reader macro. 09:18:41 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:26:51 maybe I'm trying to be unnecessarily clever 09:27:35 this is for clim:*unsupplied-argument-marker*, incidentally 09:27:48 it turns out that a gensym doesn't work desperately well 09:27:59 (similarly for numeric-argument-marker 09:30:04 reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:33:07 -!- jsoft [n=user@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:33:16 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host136-154-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:33:45 In what situation do you need to print and read those? 09:35:42 debugging 09:36:13 we spent a while debugging a clim application before realising that two uninterned symbols that print the same are not necessarily eq 09:37:04 but it's OK; I think the right solution is just to use interned but unexported symbols 09:39:04 if you do e.g. (define-command-table file-menu-table :menu (("Load" :command (com-load-file #.*unsupplied-argument-marker*)))) 09:39:12 and *u-a-m* is an uninterned symbol 09:39:47 and you compile and load it, the thing that is in the command table is a different uninterned symbol from the one you started with 09:39:53 and so partial-command-p doesn't work 09:41:52 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:42:49 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:43:12 manuel__ [n=manuel@ede67-3-82-235-53-105.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:56 -!- xtagon [n=xtagon@97-113-160-193.tukw.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:44:07 dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-34-140.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:23 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@ede67-3-82-235-53-105.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:46:53 lukego_: so do you still follow the squeak world? 09:47:09 (or, I dunno, lead it?) 09:50:52 manuel__ [n=manuel@ede67-3-82-235-53-105.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:53:00 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:55:53 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-77.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:56:18 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-77.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:54 -!- azanar [n=edcarrel@c-67-183-123-169.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:57:00 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-242.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:05:10 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 10:06:26 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-225.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:07:20 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:07:22 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:38 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-86-117.netcologne.de] has quit [] 10:13:18 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 10:15:13 ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:37 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@ede67-3-82-235-53-105.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 10:17:50 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-254-61-64.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:20:37 -!- jao [n=jao@220.Red-81-32-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:25:23 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-86-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 10:25:59 manuel__ [n=manuel@ede67-3-82-235-53-105.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:41 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:41:07 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-101-123.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:42:09 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 10:43:53 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 10:44:36 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-205.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 10:45:40 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:46:14 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-86-117.netcologne.de] has quit [] 10:53:52 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-240-176-62.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:06 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 11:00:09 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-152.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:00:29 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 11:02:17 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:05:53 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:06:51 netfrog [n=NetFrog@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has joined #lisp 11:07:57 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:57 -!- netfrog [n=NetFrog@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has quit [Client Quit] 11:09:15 -!- xan-afk is now known as xan 11:11:23 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 11:12:32 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has joined #lisp 11:17:45 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-157-97.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 11:18:10 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-211-146.lns11.adl2.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:18:21 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:38 demmeln [i=demmeln@atradig114.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 11:38:09 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-196-136.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:58 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@ede67-3-82-235-53-105.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 11:41:24 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonw@p54977C33.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.2"] 11:41:45 slackjaw [n=jolyonw@p54977C33.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:56 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-77.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:43:20 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-77.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:34 -!- spacebat_ is now known as spacebat 11:45:26 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:45:43 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:54:58 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 11:55:33 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:57:08 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:03:37 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:04:37 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 12:18:48 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:23:26 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 12:23:54 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:24:24 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:24:51 foobar__ [n=_prip@host173-135-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:26:06 -!- foobar__ is now known as prip 12:26:33 -!- prip_ [n=_prip@host202-129-dynamic.35-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:26:35 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-158-0.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:26:36 -!- prip is now known as Guest32325 12:26:48 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:03 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [] 12:27:38 -!- Guest32325 is now known as prip 12:28:15 -!- prip is now known as Guest86410 12:32:59 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 12:36:11 -!- segv__ is now known as segv 12:38:48 X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f0a:13ea:0:0:0:2] has joined #lisp 12:43:59 -!- Guest86410 [n=_prip@host173-135-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:44:23 Guest32325 [n=_prip@host207-132-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:48:01 ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:48:08 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:49:46 -!- Guest32325 is now known as prip 12:52:10 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A70A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:52:18 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:21 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-240-176-62.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:59:27 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:59:57 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:39 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-129-228.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:47 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:04:29 -!- prip [n=_prip@host207-132-dynamic.47-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:04:37 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:04:59 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 13:07:56 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:10:34 -!- demmeln [i=demmeln@atradig114.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:11:38 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:12:50 josemanuel [n=josemanu@18.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:18:59 prip [n=_prip@host130-132-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:22:36 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-196-136.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:23:31 mechine [n=mutable@220-253-187-75.NSW.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:25:28 -!- mechine [n=mutable@220-253-187-75.NSW.netspace.net.au] has left #lisp 13:26:21 tommylommykins [n=tommylom@5ad471ca.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 13:26:35 -!- tommylommykins [n=tommylom@5ad471ca.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:28:50 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-196-136.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:31:31 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-86-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 13:34:01 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbffeb.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 13:37:53 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:14 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonw@p54977C33.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.2"] 13:39:18 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-154-124.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 13:39:28 slackjaw [n=jolyonw@p54977C33.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:34 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbffeb.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:42:01 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:28 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslc-082-082-059-217.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:12 LostMonarch [n=roby@host178-178-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:48:17 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbffeb.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 13:51:30 prip_ [n=_prip@host100-220-dynamic.45-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:52:33 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-028-083.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:04 -!- prip [n=_prip@host130-132-dynamic.52-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:53:30 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 13:56:21 hello. how can i use make-broadcast-stream together with with-open-file/stream? 13:57:03 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D952.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:14 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1CC39.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:58:41 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-141-116.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:51 is it ok to (w-o-f ...(w-o-f .... (let ((bstream (m-b-s ...))) (format bstream ....))))? 14:00:15 why not? 14:00:41 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.71.214] has joined #lisp 14:01:30 stassats: i had the feeling that there is a more direct way to do so. but if that is ok, i will use it. thanks. 14:04:08 reading http://kantz.com/jason/clim-primer/application-frames.htm : 14:05:00 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 14:06:25 could a frame-manage both: a) use the window manager to create windows and manage it's contents and b) be the "window manager" itself and draw the whole "desktop", the windows and their contents? 14:07:33 eg. a) create a window with glut for each frame and draw the contents with opengl; b) use opengl to draw "windows" and their contents 14:08:41 Lain [n=Lain@c-71-224-213-131.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:43 anthan [n=anthan@p4FD3E32B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:17 -!- Lain [n=Lain@c-71-224-213-131.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:09:36 Is it true that xen cannot run sbcl? how is that possible, since xen is only a virtual machine and should have no effect on the programs that run inside it. 14:10:54 robyonrails [n=roby@host68-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:13:54 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 14:14:12 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host178-178-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:14:18 anthan: I'm not sure what the case was in the past, but you can certainly run sbcl on a xen guest domain now. 14:15:02 tritchey: I just found this: http://forum.slicehost.com/comments.php?DiscussionID=564 ... it seems to be an issue only on x64 processors, or was an issue, if you're right. 14:15:47 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 14:16:09 anthan: on paravirtualized guest (i.e. no HVM) SBCL might use some data in a way conflicting with Xen. There were issues with GLIBC threading too 14:17:18 phromo [i=phromo@c-3f65e455.015-359-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:17:59 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:43 drewc would be the one to ask. He manages tech.coop's Xen instances, and they run sbcl fine 14:19:26 (I have currently running sbcl-backed web apps there right now) 14:20:20 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-0-76.lns10.adl2.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:35 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-225.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:20:44 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 14:20:47 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-86-117.netcologne.de] has quit [] 14:29:58 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has joined #lisp 14:30:03 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:30:23 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-158-0.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:30:34 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:32:47 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@ppp121-45-157-97.lns11.adl6.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 14:34:09 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-204-206.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:36:10 lichtblau [n=user@pD9543377.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:37:16 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:37:28 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:45:02 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:35 amigo_rich [n=richard@92-232-223-69.cable.ubr08.shef.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:50:00 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-028-083.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:52 -!- sepult_ [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-151-201.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:57:12 sepult [n=buggarag@xdsl-87-78-149-124.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 14:59:09 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:01:06 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 15:04:06 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [No route to host] 15:07:42 -!- JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-196-136.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:13:53 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.71.214] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:19:10 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:24:59 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbffeb.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:30:13 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbffeb.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:30 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:30:43 matley [n=matley@83.225.26.7] has joined #lisp 15:31:28 hmm any hints on how to discover what is wrong when a program builds with 0 errors yet fails the first time (SBCL) to succeed at second compilation? (i.e. using C-c C-k)? 15:31:50 it makes no use of defconstant also 15:32:19 no foreign shared libs? 15:32:52 there are actually, but not in that file specifically, but in code it uses/loads 15:33:15 it uses iolib which has cffi bindings to syscalls 15:33:23 well not shared libraries actually for now 15:33:29 is it trying to load again or reinitialize a library? 15:33:54 phadthai: could you paste the error message ? 15:33:56 not that I know of, although I could ktrace/ktruss the sbcl process and see I guess 15:34:03 fe[nl]ix: there is no error :) 15:34:08 just failed: 0 errors etc 15:34:18 the second time though 15:34:51 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@18.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 15:35:12 I'll restart inferior lisp and try to rebuild it while tracing the process and will check again if I have any error log, brb 15:35:35 it only fails the very first time on a new lisp image 15:35:46 phadthai: try running directly from a terminal first 15:36:15 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:21 when it fails, are you doing a recompile/load or just a load of compiled file? 15:36:38 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:37:20 sometimes things get defined during compile time, and then when you shut off lisp and restart and try to load the compile the definitions don't exist 15:37:39 hmm ok I can confirm in slime I get: Compilation failed: 0 errors 8 warnings 2 notes [21.39 secs] 15:37:48 kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 15:37:52 and nothing particularily interesting in repl backlog 15:38:01 manic12_: hmm that makes sense 15:38:12 8 warnings and 2 notes might tell you something too 15:38:21 fe[nl]ix: thanks will also try that, good idea 15:38:45 I know what those are, a few warnings are from iolib and two notes from a library of mine 15:38:59 (optimization notes) 15:39:49 i would say look out for definitions inside (eval-when (:compile-toplevel) ...) 15:40:20 they might be needed at load and runtime too 15:40:21 manic12_: yes I actually load other modules btw 15:41:15 shouldn't a missing definition still generate an error however ideally? 15:41:47 no, because if you compile first and then load, it will still be defined from the compile 15:42:08 if you just load a fasl, it might not be there 15:43:02 The_Birdman [n=john@CPE001d60364786-CM0018685225f4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:27 about to try from sbcl directly without slime 15:43:56 a load of fasls or a compile/load ? 15:44:03 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:44:40 manic12_: so the problem surely relates to that, I'm not really used yet to all of lisp runtime issues 15:44:58 maybe :) 15:45:05 manic12_: actually only #.(load "foo") 15:45:15 or was it .# :) 15:45:21 #. 15:45:44 that happens when the reader sees it 15:46:36 why the use of the "#." ? 15:48:23 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has joined #lisp 15:48:30 hmm it wouldn't load those at C-c C-k time otherwise if I remembmer 15:48:32 remember 15:48:33 eslick [n=eslick@pool-71-184-179-158.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:47 Anyone online who has installed opengenera? 15:49:36 hrm, "#." instructs the reader to execute the form after the #. right then and there 15:49:43 I have installed OG on linux 15:50:17 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-86-117.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 15:50:52 padthai: the (load "foo") probably should be at top level and with no "#." 15:50:59 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 15:51:26 hmm so if I simply LOAD my main module in SBCL console it works fine, but it didn't need to rebuild anything either 15:51:29 "foo" may contain definitions needed at compile time 15:51:38 anyway, use asdf 15:52:06 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 15:52:25 it seems odd to need to write asd definition files even for simple initial tests 15:53:35 try just sticking (load "foo") as a top-level form before it is used, if it's needed during compile then you may want to try (eval-when (:compile-toplevel :load-toplevel :execute) (load "foo")) 15:54:03 i don't use asdf for little things either 15:54:46 little things --- one file, more than one file --- use asdf 15:54:47 Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.171.120] has joined #lisp 15:54:51 hmm actually I probably shouldn't use C-c C-k to get stuff loaded when at a new image, that seems to be my main problem 15:54:53 these things are actually brainbusters sometimes 15:54:56 AllNight^ [n=nobody@ai-core.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:55:18 phadthai: it's acceptable to use C-c C-k 15:55:57 just remember that it's going to compile first 15:56:04 true 15:56:25 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.156.158] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:56:33 -!- Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.171.120] has quit [Client Quit] 15:56:49 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.171.120] has joined #lisp 15:57:57 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:58:09 if you have a file "bar.lisp" which you are trying to C-c C-k, and "bar.lisp" defines symbols in a package defined in "foo.lisp" then put the (load "foo.lisp") (or (load (compile-file "foo.lisp")) in an eval-when 15:58:47 I mean if bar.lisp _uses_ symbols defined in a package from foo.lisp 15:59:15 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit ["Stopping IRC chat... [OK]"] 15:59:42 manic12_: oh well, without #. it still loads, so I'm not sure what was wrong when I added #. :) 16:00:07 -!- phromo [i=phromo@c-3f65e455.015-359-6c6b701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )"] 16:00:09 yeah, if you don't need the eval-when, then that's good 16:00:09 -!- The_Birdman [n=john@CPE001d60364786-CM0018685225f4.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 16:00:54 this file defines methods for generic functions from another package and file indeed 16:01:33 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-240-176-62.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:27 i use "#." if I want to stick the result of (make-array 3 :element-type 'double-float :initial-contents '(1.0d0 2.0d0 3.0d0)) directly into the code, such as for the default value of an &optional arg 16:02:55 where can I find an implemented CL version of unix crypt()? 16:03:45 hmm it's possible that ironclad includes that but I'm not sure 16:04:29 I was having a problem saving the world image on the x86 snap4 emulator for OpenGenera - curious if anyone else resolved that problem 16:05:02 i solved it by not saving the world 16:05:07 eslick: I never got that far with it 16:05:27 I guess the only problem is that you have to configure the network each time if you want to use it 16:05:49 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 16:05:56 the network that is 16:06:12 yeah, it's hardcoded to 10.0.0.1 16:06:17 manic12_: it seems to work fine with compile-file directive added and #., thanks a lot 16:06:34 phadthai: you don't want to use #. 16:06:59 it just errored without it with compile-file at C-c C-k 16:07:00 that part works fine, but if you want name resolution I think you need to setup nfs which means configuring paths, etc each time 16:07:05 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-29-186.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:23 it might work, but it's bad technique and will bite you again later 16:07:38 make configuration paths the same as default 16:07:48 i wish there were sources to snap4 available 16:08:31 is there a nicer way than nested loops to iterate over the elements of a two-dimensional array? 16:09:13 I want to return the indices when I find a certain element 16:09:26 i just use loop. 16:10:13 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E6CD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:01 well, return doesn't seem to break out of the outer loop.. is there a way to index the array with just one index? 16:11:23 ( block foo (return-from foo answer 16:11:31 ampleyfly: How about you just use one loop and iterate over all rows in "parallel" ;) 16:11:47 (loop named foo ... 16:11:56 (boy named sue ... 16:12:05 and defun establishes block too 16:14:57 ok 16:14:58 -!- eslick [n=eslick@pool-71-184-179-158.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:15:01 write something in CUDA 16:15:13 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:15:47 manic12_: eh 16:16:59 :P 16:18:50 *manic12_* is wondering why most or all CL compilers don't do that tail-recursion elimination stuff or whatever allows you to do recursion in just a few stack frames 16:19:09 sbcl does 16:19:15 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF09D02.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:23 *manic12_* also wonders if he knows what he is talking about 16:19:28 our lecturer told us "lisp does" 16:19:39 manic12_: I think the top reason for some not doing it is that it is not required by the standard (: 16:19:47 don't know if he was referring to any particular one 16:19:48 scheme does - the standard mandates tail-recursion elimination 16:19:48 ampleyfly: common lisp doesn't 16:19:54 the common-lisp standard does not 16:19:58 hrm :/ 16:20:11 ampleyfly: Don't recurse, ITERATE :) 16:20:18 oh 16:20:19 sorry 16:20:21 I guess he said scheme then 16:20:25 manic12_: Don't recurse, ITERATE :) 16:20:26 =) 16:20:38 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has joined #lisp 16:20:41 also many lisp people prefer doing things iteratively - but I agree a good compiler should provide support for tail-recursion elimination 16:20:50 loop for domain-specific-language on domain-specific-languages do (something-generic ... 16:20:52 don't curse, reiterate 16:21:02 hehehe. 16:21:20 problem is - recursion is an extremely elegant solution to many problems - I dont like being without it 16:21:33 i guess a lot of RAM? 16:21:35 So use some CL implementation that supports it :) 16:21:37 There is an important difference between optimizing tail calls and guaranteeing proper tail recursion. 16:23:02 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [No route to host] 16:23:47 Riastradh, which one does sbcl do? 16:24:38 Also what is the important difference? 16:24:47 It optimizes some tail calls. 16:25:12 The important difference is that a compiler that optimizes tail calls does not guarantee that there is no bound on the number of active tail calls. It just makes some programs run slightly faster. 16:25:41 Oh! 16:25:58 That's not terribly attractive :) 16:25:59 (At least, that's the intent of the optimization -- it might make other programs run slower.) 16:28:30 I thought the difference was that you can execute in fixed-amounts of space - whereas without tail-call elimination you might use unbounded amounts of stack 16:29:27 Sounds like what Riastradh said :) 16:31:04 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 16:31:15 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:31:22 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 16:33:35 -!- manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 16:35:09 stathis_ [n=stathis@ppp1-71.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:39:46 manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:35 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-18.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:41:41 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:39 nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-223-182-13.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:45 G'morning all. 16:43:53 good morning 16:44:22 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:04 -!- abend [n=sasha@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit ["Quitting..."] 16:53:09 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:20 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 16:54:43 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-87-237.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:03 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-133.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 16:56:25 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-133.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:59:10 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:00:49 cpape [n=user@88.130.178.75] has joined #lisp 17:01:45 JoelMcCracken [n=joelmccr@pool-72-95-196-136.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:16 Inhuman [n=somethin@S0106001d7e47087f.su.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:19 I built a reverse function on my own called rev. Now I am making a simple function to remove the last element of a list. When I type: (rev (cdr (rev (list 1 2 3)))), it returns (1, 2), which is exactly what I want. When I use define like this: (define (rl lis) (rev (cdr (rev (lis))))) and then try typing: (rl (list 1 2 3)), I get an error saying "Given (1 2 3) No arguments". 17:05:06 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-140-81.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:05:33 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:05:48 (rev lis), not (rev (lis)) 17:07:24 Thank you. 17:09:16 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 17:11:21 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-147-152.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:15:50 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:17:40 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 17:18:39 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:19:33 zhilihu [n=zhilihu@58.207.128.57] has joined #lisp 17:19:37 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:59 -!- stathis_ [n=stathis@ppp1-71.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:25:00 sepisultrum [n=enigma@ks35219.kimsufi.com] has joined #lisp 17:25:27 Is it possible to setf a Clos slot without explicitly defining a setf method? 17:25:57 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-129-228.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:26:16 (setf (slot-value ... 17:27:28 hmm, and does :accessor not define both reader and a setfable method? 17:27:39 I think I'm too much used to ruby 17:28:00 Yes, :accessor explicitly defines a setf method. 17:28:37 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:28:51 -!- zhilihu [n=zhilihu@58.207.128.57] has quit [] 17:28:59 hello 17:29:11 Hello kiuma. 17:29:31 hi nyef 17:29:49 karpar [n=zhilihu@58.207.128.57] has joined #lisp 17:30:16 I've a question on parenscript: is there a way to transform a string into a capitalized js variable ? 17:30:48 I wouldn't like to rewrite something already present 17:30:57 Doesn't starting it with - do that with the usual magic? 17:31:15 Zhivago, no 17:31:25 I'm asking this because 17:31:39 I0m using dojo 17:32:54 so for example I have a tag like
jsId do the magic to crate a javascript variable 17:33:08 then I'd like to rause it 17:34:00 I wonder if there is already the capability for parenscript to use that string as a variable 17:34:54 How can you divide the initialization of a CLOS object between the parent and child "constructor"? 17:37:13 ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:52 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:38:44 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-240-176-62.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:38:54 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:58 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-240-176-62.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:17 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:40:31 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:42 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 17:46:13 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:50:00 nikki93 [n=nikki@78.101.67.72] has joined #lisp 17:50:05 loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has joined #lisp 17:50:11 dv___ [n=dv@85-127-103-153.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:50:24 Are [ and ] used in lisp? (I won't define any functions named with those characters) 17:51:05 I have to embed lisp code within a game level format, and I'm evaluating characters I can use to delimit a single property (lisp code goes into a single string property). 17:51:18 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-140-81.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:51:39 I believe they default to constituent characters, but aren't used in any defined symbols in the language proper. It's not uncommon to see them redefined as delimiters of one sort or another. 17:52:09 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-10-31.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 17:52:23 they are only used as format directives, as far as i can imagine 17:52:34 Ok. 17:52:36 Oh, right, format. Forgot about format. 17:53:11 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 17:53:39 hi 17:53:40 Hmm... Probably I can do something like an '&' character to a newline. 17:53:57 what are the differences between setf and setq ? 17:54:11 setf is general 17:54:15 alinp - (setq (any list) ...) is an error. 17:54:18 what's the best ref that I should follow for common lisp documentation ? 17:54:27 clhs setf 17:54:27 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_setf.htm 17:54:33 oh, thanks 17:54:46 alinp: setf is more general. setq only works on symbols. 17:55:03 got the point, thank you 17:55:05 And, in order to keep backwards compatability, setq on a symbol-macro turns itself into setf. 17:55:07 (something LOL points out as an advantage of setq in macros.) 17:55:29 ... -What-? 17:55:53 nyef - that setq errors on a list, and what you just said. 17:56:22 dwave [n=ask@212251243215.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:56:27 I completely fail to see the advantage. 17:56:34 clhs setq 17:56:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_setq.htm 17:56:36 nyef - do you see the advantage of endp over null? 17:56:59 Yes, though I rarely use endp. 17:57:21 ajb_ [n=allynbau@dhcp-0-109-212-67.cf-res.cfu.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:03 Great. Choosing to use setq in a macro is like choosing to use endp instead of null. You get an error earlier in a corner case instead of bad behavior. 17:58:28 No, I still don't see it. 17:58:48 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:58:53 i see a disadvantage 17:58:55 Do you not see where setq raises an error where setf would do something unwanted? 17:59:18 I'd rather see an explicit (assert (symbolp x)) than some random setq. 17:59:35 nyef - then you'd rather see an ASSERT and null instead of endp. Thanks for playing. 17:59:47 No, completely different situation. 17:59:50 -!- ajb_ [n=allynbau@dhcp-0-109-212-67.cf-res.cfu.net] has left #lisp 18:00:20 No, this is exactly the same situation. The two of you are only imagining problems with this because it came from LOL. 18:00:51 I'd have problems with recommending setq for anything no matter -what- the source. 18:01:55 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-028-083.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:16 And not just because it makes the external interface more complex in a way that requires careful reading to notice ahead of time. 18:02:42 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:02:45 (Hint: If you actually wanted to use a place there, for whatever reason, if you use setq you now have to introduce a symbol-macrolet around the macro invocation.) 18:03:28 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonw@p54977C33.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:38 A macro that accepts places should certainly accept places, and not just symbols. But macros also operate on symbols that they themselves supply. 18:03:44 that's LOL advocacy is getting boring 18:04:02 If it's not the sort of macro that should take a general place, then it should be blatantly obvious from the designated use-cases or explicitly asserted. 18:04:31 This isn't LOL advocacy, this is me pointing something out and you needing to be explained things that you could A) read in the book, or B) bloody well *think* about, instead of resisting. 18:04:41 This need to defend LOL is getting boring! 18:04:49 Then stop brining it up. 18:05:06 You mentioned LOL first. 18:05:21 You're behaving poorly, so I should silence insights that I get from this book. No. 18:05:51 Your assertion that I haven't read the book is reasonable, as I have explained why I haven't read the book. Your assertion that I haven't throught about the issues is nothing less than insulting. 18:05:52 did boinkor die from the massive patch bomb for sbcl? 18:05:54 my opinion, and nyef's, i believe, wouldn't be differente if you didn't mention lol 18:05:59 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:06:39 Mmm... Had you not mentioned LOL in your opener, I would probably have asked where the hell you got such a stupid idea. 18:07:06 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:13 tsuru: Boinkmarks or the git repository? 18:07:52 Hrm. 1.0.25.55. Must be boinkmarks, then. 18:07:57 nyef: boinkmarks...sorry 18:08:15 Didn't antifuchs mention something recently about running low on disk space? 18:08:21 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-204-206.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:08:28 yeah, and specifically about SBCL builds. 18:08:45 -!- karpar [n=zhilihu@58.207.128.57] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:08:50 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@89.232.126.96] has joined #lisp 18:09:03 < antifuchs> whoa, I may be running out of disk space for sbcl builds soon 18:09:27 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 18:10:32 oh... 18:10:56 does it store every build? 18:10:57 donations needed? 18:11:54 yeah, it stores every build, gzipped 18:12:10 erm, wait, I think it's bz2ipped after all 18:13:27 do you use them for anything, like finding origins of bugs? 18:14:13 yeah 18:14:29 there's an informal bisection search service (: 18:15:27 is it just a matter of dropping in a new HD? 18:15:32 anyway. there are 2.4GB free on the disk where I store the builds; there still are a few weeks left 18:16:36 make that a few months, actually 18:16:40 that would be a solution. I would have to be in vienna to do this, though (it's where the server is)... and that will be in a few weeks 18:16:49 boinkmarks died a couple days ago :) 18:16:58 hang on (: 18:17:15 oh crap, the araneida server crashed (: 18:17:15 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:17:31 was it 8 days? 18:18:04 Crashed how? 18:19:26 To LDB? 18:19:38 power outage at data center; uptime is 8 days. the autobench web server probably didn't come up again 18:19:48 Ahh. 18:19:50 there we go 18:21:17 -!- anthan [n=anthan@p4FD3E32B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:22 anthan [n=anthan@p4FD3F7F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:17 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@221.237.116.157] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:24:25 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 18:24:29 excellent :) 18:26:35 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 18:27:04 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dvk@89.232.126.96] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:33:28 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-254-61-64.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:57 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:35:08 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:35:16 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 18:36:39 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:43:06 -!- ehird [n=ehird@eso-std.org] has left #lisp 18:43:38 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:44:57 ayrnieu: When do you expand to something that assigns to a binding not established by the macro expansion? Isn't this the only case where an argument to setf could be tainted beyond your knowledge? 18:47:20 tcr1, when does null get something that is not a list? You screw up - not in some [invoking] dinky list function, but in a *macro* - and you'd prefer a debugging prompt to destroying data. 18:47:47 *nyef* would prefer -testing- to destroying data. 18:48:53 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:49:02 yeah, sure, and I would prefer not screwing up. I would like to write perfect code at all times. But this aim does not conflict with using setq instead of an equivalent-except-for-not-being-as-safe setf. Maybe I can come back later and optimize. 18:49:10 ayrnieu: Null is often used to against input. SETQ/SETF is not. I don't know why you keep on pulling that analogon. 18:49:34 Full disclosure: I actually favor setq over setf for assigning to variable bindings. 18:50:02 I still haven't got the point you're trying to make re macro expansion 18:51:15 I just don't see a non-contrived example where it would matter. Perhaps it's because I just woke up :) 18:51:35 Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has joined #lisp 18:52:29 eslick [n=eslick@dhcp-23-106.media.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 18:54:55 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:56:07 -!- cpape [n=user@88.130.178.75] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:56:09 mije [n=chatzill@tal33-5-88-181-16-209.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:31 -!- amigo_rich [n=richard@92-232-223-69.cable.ubr08.shef.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:58:55 cmihai [n=user@unaffiliated/cmihai] has joined #lisp 19:00:16 -!- Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has left #lisp 19:04:32 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 19:04:36 -!- saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-254-61-64.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:08:19 hi everyone, i'm an absolute beginner in lisp and am trying to set up a little pet project. I'm trying to write a simple mail client (imap i guess) but i have no idea about an appropriate library, any advices about it ? 19:08:38 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 19:08:58 -!- lichtblau [n=user@pD9543377.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:09:17 minion: mel-base 19:09:18 mel-base: mel-base is a Networking Library for handling E-Mails (Author: Jochen Schmidt). http://www.cliki.net/mel-base 19:09:53 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.171.120] has quit ["I love being married. It's so great to find that one special person you want to annoy for the rest of your life.  R] 19:09:56 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:10:37 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 19:10:48 Nice! I was just looking for such a library yesterday and was looking at the client libs from Franz, didn't run across mel-base 19:13:32 stassats`: looks great, thanks a lot 19:15:47 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:16:06 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.171.120] has joined #lisp 19:17:13 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.26.7] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:12 patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:55 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-208-160.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:56 xero1 [n=xero1@c-24-63-197-17.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:25 If I don't explicitly compile a function, is there a way to recover its s-exp definition? 19:25:59 not portably 19:26:44 stassats`: does SBCL save the s-exp for a compiled function?? 19:27:11 sykopomp: i don't think so 19:27:51 it doesnt 19:28:16 thanks 19:28:17 the best way to recover definition is not to lose it, i.e., write them in files 19:29:10 sykopomp: sometimes. see function-lambda-expression 19:29:18 and don't forget to backup your files, of course 19:29:27 Is it even possible to serialize sbcl functions, then? At least two persistence libraries I've used have had "serialize functions" in their todo list, but it doesn't sound like that's possible while preserving the lexical environment... 19:29:38 ffunction-lambda-expression is convenient, if it worked 19:32:57 -!- nikki93 [n=nikki@78.101.67.72] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:33:46 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-86-117.netcologne.de] has quit [] 19:39:10 thanks, function-lambda-expression is what I was looking for. I don't mind if it's been "preprocessed in some ways" as the doc says, as long as I can set it over the wire then compile it. 19:39:11 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.62] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:22 in what manner does it not work? 19:39:35 *send it over the wire 19:39:52 it doesn't have to work 19:40:01 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:40:26 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:27 yes, I can macro-ize anything that takes the code I need 19:41:04 but for those things which are already defined, I need function-lambda-expression 19:42:04 if they are defined in files, you'd better use source location, like in swank 19:46:07 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:16 xero1: an implementation is not required to save a function's lambda-expression 19:49:04 -!- tcr1 is now known as tcr 19:49:08 just wrap defun and save it 19:50:02 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:05 yes I didn't notice this part of function-definition-lambda: Implementation note: An implementation is always free to return the values nil, t, nil from this function 19:51:07 xero1: What exactly are you trying to accomplish? 19:51:48 tcr: distributed computation across several machines. 19:51:59 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:09 if function-definition-lambda always worked, I would just use it and be done. But wrapping is not so bad, just less automatic. 19:54:40 jollygood_ [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-141-116.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:40 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-141-116.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:55:02 you would need also somehow distribute environment in case of closures 19:55:19 or not distribute closures 19:57:01 yes I've already considered that: everything is absolutely pure-functional. If you depend on anything but the input, you lose. 19:57:25 closures are pure functional 19:57:36 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-240-176-62.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:57:57 well, I mean that depending upon anything but the function input is a lose. 19:59:17 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 20:05:06 ayrnieu_ [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:23 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-173.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 20:05:23 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:05:28 -!- ayrnieu_ is now known as ayrnieu 20:06:32 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:08:43 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:32 jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 20:19:22 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:21:31 metasyntax [n=taylor@pool-71-127-85-87.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:17 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:22:56 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 20:23:33 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:24:10 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-242.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:24:13 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:50 -!- xero1 [n=xero1@c-24-63-197-17.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011912]"] 20:25:57 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:29:07 -!- lukego_ [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:05 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:32:22 -!- dwave [n=ask@212251243215.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 20:32:50 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:32:53 alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has joined #lisp 20:33:18 dwave [n=ask@212251243215.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:34:19 Hi all. 20:34:39 Question: is it possible to replace a "Discrete Math" CS course with a close reading and doing of the excersizes in Knuth? 20:35:00 GrayShade [i=GrayShad@79.117.187.232] has joined #lisp 20:35:10 is it all right to do something like "+#allegro (eval-when (compile) (setf foo nil))"? 20:35:15 that depends on you 20:35:26 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has joined #lisp 20:35:28 I thought other implementations should ignore that expression 20:35:38 ayrnieu pasted "LOL quote for drewc, who quipped that Perl is --> that way." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75921 20:35:40 GrayShade: #+allegro 20:36:12 aargh 20:36:13 :) 20:36:22 thanks 20:36:29 stassats`: I'm just trying to figure out if knuth covers the same ground? 20:36:42 ayrnieu: I like that quote a lot. 20:36:47 davo_ [n=davo@ip68-6-224-17.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:26 mooglenorph: you mean taocp? 20:37:32 stassats`: yes 20:38:37 well, i haven't read it, but i was told, that it's better to read some discrete math textbook before it, like knuths concrete math 20:38:43 -!- dwave [n=ask@212251243215.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 20:39:04 hmm. okay. 20:40:35 The motivation here is, I'm setting up a series of "reading seminars" in computer science at my school 20:41:00 And I *know* that I want to replace "Introduction to Algorithms" (cormen etc) with selections from taocp 20:42:10 But my discrete math course was out of a text that the professor wrote himself, which was pretty good, but the problems in it weren't nearly as good at the problems in taocp 20:42:18 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:44:01 "concrete math" looks perfect for the discrete math portion, especially using taocp for algorithms... of course I'll read/work it myself first. 20:44:05 thanks :-) 20:47:02 sykopomp - what do you think of this? http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/28cb9d4217fe6dc3?dmode=source , in light of that? 20:48:18 -!- davo [n=davo@ip68-6-224-17.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:49:10 ayrnieu: As long as I can make similar *conceptual* abstractions, I prefer to have very verbose, self-documenting code over unreadable code with x and y as variables with tons of "literate programming" comments. 20:49:38 sorry, I'm kind of in a rush, so I didn't read the whole thing 20:49:41 I gotta head out 20:50:02 sykopomp pasted "the extra lines are worth it for me" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75924 20:50:24 conceptually, that qsort is very similar to the haskell version. 20:50:30 and I find it more readable. 20:50:34 bye! 20:54:10 *ayrnieu* nods. & goes shopping. 20:59:57 can be (list null) instead of eql 21:02:01 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 21:03:01 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.171.120] has quit ["(p_l) erm... is it true that symbolicweb got scrapped? (Krystof) apparently lnostdal's fan club was insufficiently effusive"] 21:08:41 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:11:07 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host68-211-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 21:11:10 -!- loxs [n=loxs@82.137.72.133] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:14:40 -!- moocow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:15:48 vinc456 [n=user@unaffiliated/vinc456] has joined #lisp 21:18:23 -!- vinc456 [n=user@unaffiliated/vinc456] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:19:49 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A70A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:20:07 manic12__ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:11 is there a function that ors the elements of a list? 21:20:34 -!- manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:58 GrayShade: logior, maybe? 21:22:36 some? 21:22:36 nyef: i was thinking of something more in the lines of (loop for x on '(nil nil nil) when x return t finally (return nil)) 21:22:38 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:50 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:23:09 Oh, that or. Some might do the job for you. 21:24:44 (some (complement #'not) '(nil nil nil t t)) 21:24:54 stassats`: (some #'identity '(nil nil nil)) 21:25:36 but how would write that with loop? mine always returns t 21:25:44 if you want useful value 21:25:54 (loop for i in list thereis i) 21:26:36 oh, thanks 21:27:37 or (notevery #'null '(nil nil)) 21:29:04 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:29:25 though, the would differ on empty list 21:30:00 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 21:31:34 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:34:37 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:14 -!- _death [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:37:17 is there a way to silence the sbcl "redefining foo in bar" warnings? 21:37:29 in fact I'm sure there is. :) 21:38:01 close your eyes and pretend there is none 21:38:13 I see :) 21:38:36 -!- alinp [n=alinp@89.137.98.94] has quit [] 21:40:10 (setf sb-ext:*muffled-warnings* 'sb-kernel:redefinition-warning) 21:40:34 davo [n=davo@ip68-6-224-17.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:37 thanks :) 21:40:52 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:41:51 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslc-082-082-059-217.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:06 -!- davo_ [n=davo@ip68-6-224-17.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:45:09 GrayShade: redefinition warnings can sometimes catch errors 21:45:12 *stassats`* prefer the first way 21:45:14 I mean mistakes 21:45:42 tcr: I think they might be swallowed by the false positives 21:47:17 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:47:30 a reasonable compromise, i think 21:49:13 in my case there might be the fact that I'm not too comfortable with my IDE and I tend to recompile more than it's needed. 21:49:16 GrayShade: If you use Slime they're easily ignored 21:50:07 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.15.0] has joined #lisp 21:51:18 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:21 lispers generally recompile a lot 21:51:46 more code, not more often :) 21:53:07 Saw something weid yesterday. 21:53:44 I compiled some lisp code with clisp to a .fas file--when I run the .fas file over the .lisp file, wrapping both in the time command, the .fas seems a bit slower. 21:54:06 (Running both with clisp foo.{fas,lisp} arg1 arg2) 21:54:20 Is it to be expected that compiled code is not always faster, or am I doing it wrong? 21:54:28 BatteryCell [n=ereinion@pool-173-73-41-167.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:35 loading time included? 21:54:52 Cene [n=jh@a91-153-39-176.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 21:55:09 hey, if I want to call multiple consequents for the same test in a cond statement, how do I do it? 21:55:28 stassats`: Yeah, probably--I ran `time clisp foo.{lisp,fas} arg1 arg2` 21:56:07 do clisp foo*l; REPL> (time (your-code)) 21:56:11 hello. i have a beginner's question.. why is it that when i run http://paste.lisp.org/display/75928 with arguments "one two" i get (one two) (two) as a result? i expected (one) (two) 21:56:12 I thought clisp would actually compile the .lisp then and run it. 21:56:13 Ah. 21:56:21 Okay. 21:56:33 schme: it compiles when you ask it 21:56:40 oh ok. 21:56:42 so like (cond ((test1) (dosomething x) (dosomethingelse x))) 21:56:58 BatteryCell: progn? 21:57:00 BatteryCell: it's already doing it 21:57:05 oh 21:57:21 cond has implicit progn 21:57:22 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 21:57:34 Cene: Read what LOOP's FOR x ON list does 21:57:53 Cene: in instead of on 21:57:57 Cene: I recommend PCL's chapter on LOOP rather than the CHLS 21:58:10 ok, thanks :) 21:58:15 stassats`: Except that I get something like *** - SYSTEM::%EXPAND-FORM: (AVERAGE-R (CAR X) CNT SUM) should be a lambda expression 21:58:29 whenever I try to do it 21:58:40 the function it references is the dosomethingelse 21:59:05 BatteryCell: You're doing it wrong then. What exactly did you type in, and what do you want? 21:59:08 BatteryCell: that's not because of that 21:59:10 ah yes 21:59:12 I was doing it wrong 21:59:16 misplaced closing paren 21:59:17 thanks 22:00:01 Time to check out paredit.el! And all your closing paren problems will go alway! 22:01:06 how did paredit not get invented at the dawn of Emacs 22:02:25 hm, my IDE already does some of that stuff :D 22:02:58 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:07 GrayShade: Then how on earth did you miss the ) ? (; 22:03:09 It was already invented, in Interlisp-D, when GNU Emacs came out at least; in fact, Interlisp-D had something more than paredit -- a structure editor proper. 22:03:31 Paredit is only a simulacrum of a structure editor, sitting inside what is essentially a text editor. 22:03:33 schme: wasn't me 22:03:47 GrayShade: Oh you're right. My bad! 22:04:03 If you listened carefully you could hear the conses rattling on Interlisp! 22:04:43 poet_ [n=poet@vpn3-145155.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 22:05:05 does anyone know of a UNIX utility to generate box notation in image format? 22:07:11 -!- poet_ [n=poet@vpn3-145155.near.uiuc.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 22:08:41 -!- Cene [n=jh@a91-153-39-176.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has left #lisp 22:10:46 -!- anthan [n=anthan@p4FD3F7F5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:11:00 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:02 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-77.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Success] 22:14:27 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-67-67-218-77.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:50 davo_ [n=davo@ip68-6-224-17.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:37 -!- davo [n=davo@ip68-6-224-17.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:19:56 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:20:09 Beket [n=stathis@ppp1-71.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 22:24:10 -!- dv___ [n=dv@85-127-103-153.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:28:10 is there a way to declare a binding in the current scope? 22:28:31 (i.e. not let) 22:28:36 clhs locally 22:28:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_locall.htm 22:28:39 GrayShade: what does ``declare a binding'' mean? 22:28:56 GrayShade - why do you want to do thi? 22:29:13 something similar to the Scheme define 22:29:41 ayrnieu: I don't, I could use let instead of that 22:29:44 No, there is not. 22:29:57 well, if you don't want to do this... 22:30:07 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.15.0] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:31:53 I was thinking of code in the lines of "(declare-foo a-foo (declare-bar a-bar (do-something a-foo a-bar)))", but that could be written as "(let ((a-foo (make-foo)) (a-bar (make-bar))) (do-something a-foo a-bar))" 22:32:19 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@195.230.105.2] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:32:48 in Scheme that could be "(begin (declare-foo a-foo) (declare-bar a-bar) (do-something a-foo a-bar))" 22:33:16 less nesting, but, as I said, one could use let instead 22:33:41 you can write your first declare-foo , you can write a progn that does the easy shallow code-walk, but LET is the right answer, yes. 22:33:53 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-133.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:36:06 durka42 [n=durka@cpe-68-174-146-174.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:38 -!- durka42 [n=durka@cpe-68-174-146-174.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:37:53 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbffeb.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:40:31 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-133.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:41:02 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-059-028-083.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:31 -!- Modius__ is now known as Modius 22:45:01 slash__ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AF6F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:36 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:48:12 -!- jgracin_ [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:49:26 GrayShade: There's BIND, a general binding construct, to reduce the nesting from different consecutive bindings constructs (LET, m-v-b, d-b &c) 22:50:02 clhs bind 22:50:03 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for bind. 22:50:17 Not in the standard, but on c-l.net 22:55:23 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-87-237.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:55:35 Fare [n=Fare@c-98-216-111-110.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:00 user___ [n=user@p549252F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:36 *Fare* reminds people about the Boston Lisp Meeting this monday: "Gerbils: Distributed programming with PLT Scheme" by vyzo 22:59:21 fe[nl]ix, so what did you decide re: iolib pathnames? 23:00:09 Fare: nothing 23:00:18 *Fare* is procrastinating wrt xcvb 23:00:38 *Fare* has grand ideas on how it should ideally be written, but they involve lots of intermediate DSLs 23:00:39 I'll probably implement both and see which one is overall a nicer way 23:00:56 nice 23:01:22 grands ideas like, you mean, the enemy of getting things done? 23:01:29 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF09D02.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:01:54 "Reisner's Rule of Conceptual Inertia: If you think big enough, you'll never have to do it." 23:02:03 hahaha 23:02:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-10-31.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:02:57 tcr: I'm a big victim of Reisner's Rule. 23:03:12 that's why I had an intern write something that works 23:03:13 TUNES a case in point? 23:03:20 nyef, yup 23:03:54 *nyef* is re-reading "Why a New Operating System". 23:04:10 nyef: what's that ? 23:04:45 fe[nl]ix: Something Fare wrote a while back. It's on the tunes site. 23:04:50 nyef, it's not finished 23:05:02 will it ever be ? 23:05:08 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 23:05:11 nyef, but I *did* finish "evolutionism in programming" 23:05:17 fe[nl]ix, hopefully 23:06:09 tib [n=tl@89.180.221.170] has joined #lisp 23:08:05 I think you should put an abstract, or a summary on that one 23:09:12 I kind of don't want to think of it anymore 23:09:20 it's too painful 23:09:29 but I may, next time I procrastinate on something more urgent 23:10:20 MatrixFrog [n=TJ@208.179.109.115] has joined #lisp 23:12:02 *Fare* steals the intro from the slides and makes it into an abstract 23:12:07 -!- X-Scale [i=email@2001:470:1f0a:13ea:0:0:0:2] has left #lisp 23:12:17 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:48 If you want people to read your longish essays, you should really try to make reading it appealing to them 23:13:13 Abstract 23:13:13 Programming tools imply a story about who the programmer is; the stories we tell inspire a corresponding set of tools. Past progress can be told in terms of such stories; Future progress can be imagined likewise. Making the stories explicit is a great meta-tool... and it's fun! 23:13:33 how about that? 23:17:40 -!- manic12__ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:17:50 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:04 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:18:08 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 23:18:15 -!- GrayShade [i=GrayShad@79.117.187.232] has quit [] 23:22:27 My takeaway thus far from the reading and video-watching I've done starting with "evolutionism" has been a need for better, more user-accessible analysis tools available by default. 23:22:36 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-154-124.vologda.ru] has quit ["I wish the toaster to be happy, too."] 23:22:56 video-watching? 23:23:29 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-173.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 23:23:52 A Dec 13, 2007 presentation by Josh Tenenbaum on "Bayesian models of human inductive learning". 23:24:30 all kinds of tools are possible -- I'd say the takeaway is that you should know what story you want to be the hero of. 23:26:31 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 23:26:47 Perhaps, but that's not the bit that really struck me. 23:27:16 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 23:28:14 nyef, there are hopefully enough bits in it to differently strike many readers 23:32:14 I was thinking yesterday how one could arrange to highlight the differences between two consecutive disassemble outputs (say after the function got recompiled with type declarations) 23:32:41 if course the leading cruft should not be examined when computing the diff 23:32:46 s/if/of/ 23:33:10 tcr: Might be interesting to base the comparison on the debug-fun map. 23:36:20 -!- nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:38:36 In case of Slime, the debug-fun map of the old function definition may not be there after recompilation 23:39:34 Keep a reference to the old code-object. 23:40:23 (Damnit, we're lispers! We're supposed to be ahead of the curve! Why the hell is our debug info so crappy compared to the C and C++ people?!?) 23:40:34 it's crappy?? 23:40:45 poet_ [n=poet@vpn3-145155.near.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 23:40:57 Variable mappings are only valid at certain instruction boundaries? 23:41:25 Backtraces just plain aren't reliable? 23:41:57 It's just embarassing. 23:42:08 Ah, well. What is it that makes them unreliable? 23:42:17 can anyone tell me why running http://paste.lisp.org/display/75933 results in 'The value A is not of type list' ? 23:42:45 the backtrace indicates the problem is at (car list) 23:44:19 I suggest rewriting the function so it's possible to reason about it more easily 23:44:33 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 23:44:34 tcr: not enough debug info kept around. 23:44:45 Lousy interop with platform debug info doesn't help, but even aside from that the complete lack of debug info for assembly-routines is a killer. 23:45:24 What does unreliably mean here anyway? 23:45:50 tcr: it doesn't seem difficult to reason about? I've got a loop that updates two variables. The kill condition is when the parameter runs out of elements. The return list is updated every time a new element in found in the parameter list. 23:46:42 Well, there's the x86oid-specific "can get confused by sufficiently-ambiguous C stack frames" thing... Made worse by the x86-64 propensity to omit frame pointers. 23:47:24 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:48:00 poet_: what sort of values (type) do you expect to have in result? 23:48:02 There's the wonderful "no debug information for frame" you get if you get stopped in an assembly-routine... and, for more fun, many assembly-routines don't set up their own stack frame, so the backtracer then loses track of the -calling- frame, picking up on the callers caller... 23:48:18 nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 23:48:28 why do you (setf result) in the form that computes result's new value? 23:49:24 And then when you consider uses for better debug information both inside and outside of a debugging context... 23:49:30 pkhuoung: eventually this function will return ((A.2)(B.1)) if I pass in (a a b), however for now I'm just trying to get it to return ((A.1)(B.1)) for a input of any list that contains a and b 23:49:31 nyef: let's write a new compiler! 23:49:39 Let's not. 23:50:21 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:50:37 I haven't really thought it through yet, but I suspect that the situation could be improved with the current compiler. 23:51:08 Even to the point of precise GC scavenging on a non-partitioned register set. 23:51:14 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:51:56 nyef: simpler with safepoints 23:52:12 Perhaps, but if we're generating the debug info -anyway-... 23:52:15 poet_: how is 0 a list of conses? 23:53:00 On the other hand, a conditional trap on each safepoint has another advantage: Not stopping threads that are in alien code when you GC. 23:53:16 pkhuong: zero is a place holder for the moment. Eventually it will be replaced with code that updates the count in the result list. I 23:53:30 for now I just wanted to see if a new element is correctly added to the result list 23:53:50 -!- user___ [n=user@p549252F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:54:00 poet_: and how do you call it? 23:54:08 trick for conditional trapping at a safepoint: a read from a page that is unmapped when trapping is requested. 23:54:31 pkhuong: call what? 23:54:59 nyef: how does the trap help with alien code? 23:55:26 nyef: as in, trap when you come back from alien code? 23:55:32 Yeah. 23:55:43 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 23:56:20 Fare: yes, that much is pretty much already done. 23:57:09 so, what is left? marking before you enter alien that you're freely interruptible? 23:57:31 No, marking that you don't need to be interrupted. 23:58:06 doh, yes. Same difference. 23:58:12 so more thread state info, and all the messy interrupty stuff. 23:58:33 lovely 23:58:34 Actually, it could easily be a global count of threads that are "in lisp code". 23:59:23 Kindof loses with signal handling, I guess. 23:59:25 nyef: no, that would require to hold a lock everytime you enter/leave lisp mode 23:59:50 Whichever. It has to be globally readable -anyway-, doesn't it?