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the connection] 01:38:43 evan_ [n=evan@65-183-142-159-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:06 what's the notation when making your own predicate for a data type--foop, or foo-p? 01:39:42 evan_: foop if one word, foo-bar-p if >1 01:39:55 k 01:40:03 *dlowe* rebelliously prefers ? but doesn't get much sympathy 01:40:28 single-word predicates are often written without the hyphen, and hyphenated names finished with -p, although all predicates auto-generated by defstruct are hyphenated. 01:40:36 *stepnem* suggests dlowe go for scheme, then 01:40:43 dlowe: scheming traitor! Burn the witch! 01:40:51 :) 01:41:02 stepnem: for a symbol disagreement? you've got to be kidding me 01:41:05 k, thanks 01:41:38 dlowe - for the symbol heresy, and for making my crops fail. 01:41:52 dlowe: so maybe some kind of oecumenic dialog... 01:42:49 hm, an :around method is the first to be called, yes? 01:42:53 is it also the last one to return? 01:43:35 http://paste.lisp.org/display/75678 01:43:59 kleppari: Not always. If there are two :around methods that are valid, they can't both be first. And then there are custom method-combinations... 01:44:10 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:44:13 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:44:36 kleppari, http://www.aiai.ed.ac.uk/~jeff/clos-guide.html#meth-comb 01:44:56 thanks 01:45:37 the paste above, I want to make sure the children list gets locked on access 01:45:48 this would achieve that, given that there are no other :around methods? 01:46:30 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:46:32 (call-next-method) effectively 'nests' the more specific methods, in the :around method? 01:48:48 kleppari: when you call a generic function, there's basically a list of effective methods, out of which :around, :before, :after, and primaries are extracted. 01:49:26 kleppari around methods take control and are the first methods to run in the generic function 01:49:37 and call-next-method calls the next one, although I'm not sure if CLOS only calls the next applicable primary... 01:50:03 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 01:50:05 right, I think I understand this correctly 01:50:12 it's more like the function called by an :around method has the other methods inside itself. 01:50:41 (lambda () (print "this is around") (lambda () (print "this is the primary method")) (print "still around")) Like that. 01:51:07 peddie [n=peddie@18.224.1.192] has joined #lisp 01:51:22 sykopomp: yeah, that was my understanding 01:51:26 -!- sphix [n=msphix@aaqm33.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:52:14 so, my use of the lock in the example above is correct? 01:52:39 the lock does not get released until all methods have finished, and the around method returns? 01:52:51 Alright, I'm off for the evening. 01:52:54 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-223-182-13.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 01:52:59 yeah 01:53:03 I think so, at least. 01:53:26 ah, fsck it, somewhere down the line I might hit weird bugs, so be it :P 01:53:31 kleppari why not acquire the lock where its needed 01:53:39 that way you know whats happening 01:54:17 i dont like using around methods for locks 01:55:29 -!- p4r0l3 [n=par0le@unaffiliated/par0le] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:59:25 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:59:36 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:01:09 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:07:32 sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4B5B7.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:08:23 -!- HG` [n=wells@222-155-47-31.jetstream.xtra.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:08:50 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 02:09:27 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 02:09:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:09:59 -!- gemelen 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is there a way to undefine a package? 02:47:24 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:50 a-s` [n=user@85.9.55.98] has joined #lisp 02:49:14 clhs delete-package 02:49:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_del_pk.htm 02:49:22 thanks :) 02:49:32 delete, didn't try that prefix :) 02:50:55 -!- mcxx [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:51:02 -!- mcxx- is now known as mcxx 02:56:47 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:57:27 benny` [n=benny@i577A0394.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:58:25 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [] 02:59:17 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:59:37 p4r0l3 [n=par0le@unaffiliated/par0le] has joined #lisp 03:01:21 -!- i-bot [n=i-bot@71.175.42.169] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:01:36 i-bot [n=i-bot@71.175.42.169] has joined #lisp 03:02:13 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[n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:54 -!- beach```` is now known as beach 05:15:57 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:11 Good morning. 05:16:24 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 05:27:55 sely [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:55 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:30:36 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:11 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:32:54 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:45 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:34:45 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:36:53 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:38:06 I aspire to some day print floating point numbers in a table with FORMAT without a lot of cursing 05:38:18 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:15 (not sure how the parameters to ~F have never stuck) 05:43:01 hefner: IIRC, ~2,3f is 2 digits after the decimal, 3 before -- for some bizarre reason. That might be part of why it doesn't stick so well. 05:43:37 *aja* blames Fortran 05:46:18 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:46:31 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:46:40 -!- i-bot [n=i-bot@71.175.42.169] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:46:41 I don't think that's right. 05:46:57 i-bot1 [n=i-bot@71.175.42.169] has joined #lisp 05:47:47 hefner: I've been wrong before. 05:47:58 me too! 05:47:58 heh! 05:48:25 mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:52 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [] 05:49:28 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 05:49:37 -!- p4r0l3 [n=par0le@unaffiliated/par0le] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:50:37 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:50:44 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-189.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["If only your veins were filled with oil, the world would rush to your rescue!"] 06:05:14 how to tell "format" to print to standard error 06:05:39 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 06:07:21 antoni [n=user@194.pool85-53-11.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 06:07:32 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:07:55 p4r0l3 [n=par0le@unaffiliated/par0le] has joined #lisp 06:13:13 lboard: The first argument is a stream, so just give it whatever stream you want. 06:14:18 lboard: perhaps you need to know that there is a stream that is the value of the variable *error-output*. 06:14:24 clhs *error-output* 06:14:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_debug_.htm 06:14:50 howdy beach 06:14:52 lboard: but that is independent of the format function, of course. 06:14:59 hey sysfault 06:16:05 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.20] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:17:01 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:58 beach: thnkx 06:21:31 -!- Ogedei` [n=user@e178214106.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:21:50 lboard: ywlcm 06:22:47 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:22:47 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 06:22:57 -!- theoffset [n=ismael@201-130-230-208-cable.cybercable.net.mx] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:23:04 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit [Client Quit] 06:25:17 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 06:27:29 yeoh [n=chatzill@60.52.61.228] has joined #lisp 06:27:52 -!- yeoh [n=chatzill@60.52.61.228] has left #lisp 06:28:05 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 06:29:19 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:29:45 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 06:32:41 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 06:33:17 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has joined #lisp 06:35:12 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:37:04 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:41:00 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:41:08 -!- antoni [n=user@194.pool85-53-11.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:45:36 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 06:47:56 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:09 is it reasonable for an implementation to interpret (make-pathname :name "foo" :type "ext") as /foo.ext? I.e. creat crap in my root directory as opposed to the current directory or even the home directory? 06:49:10 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:50:11 What is the default for absolute vs. relative pathnames? 06:51:01 with-open-file has been putting my new files in C:/index.html, when my current directory, both in lisp and emacs, has been several levels into C:/hacks/ 06:51:37 check *default-pathname-defaults* 06:52:12 (pathname-directory (make-pathname :name "index" :type "html")) ==> C:\ for some reason 06:53:04 waitaminute .. 06:53:04 $&@*$#! never mind please. 06:53:04 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:55:16 -!- mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-176-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:30 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:04:10 milanj [n=milan@212.69.1.76] has joined #lisp 07:05:00 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-132-217.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:33 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Success] 07:07:11 Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has joined #lisp 07:09:14 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-46-146.sqpk.az.commspeed.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:11:45 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-133.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 07:13:54 dwave [n=ask@062249176248.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 07:15:19 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.69.1.76] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:19:11 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 07:24:08 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:27:59 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28:09 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:28:22 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:30:23 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:33:39 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:36:33 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 07:38:15 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 07:38:48 Hello 07:40:57 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:42:34 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 07:43:30 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:12 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-76-57.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:46:40 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 07:50:29 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:38 good morning 07:51:51 alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has joined #lisp 07:52:33 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:53:10 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.158.114] has joined #lisp 07:53:16 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 07:59:08 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:59:33 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:59:38 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 08:02:12 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-181-114-9.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 08:06:29 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 08:09:12 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:09:19 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:23 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.170.187] has joined #lisp 08:10:59 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:12:10 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:12:17 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-170.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:15:06 -!- dwave [n=ask@062249176248.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 08:15:13 jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 08:17:38 -!- Nate75Sanders [n=Nate75Sa@cpe-76-88-156-88.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 08:18:34 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:00 Beket [n=stathis@ppp16-146.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:23:34 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:23:53 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[away] 08:27:53 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.170.187] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:28:26 Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has joined #lisp 08:29:56 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:31:40 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 08:32:17 Tosha [n=sekoret@91.200.45.21] has joined #lisp 08:34:20 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-222.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:34:44 good morning 08:38:59 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 08:43:17 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:43:42 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:43:52 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:48:22 brill [n=brill@0x57386175.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:50:36 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 08:51:10 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:00:34 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 09:01:18 Kanukk [i=Kanukk@gateway/tor/x-64b12519a40c42ea] has joined #lisp 09:01:32 Good morning. 09:02:25 -!- Kanukk [i=Kanukk@gateway/tor/x-64b12519a40c42ea] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:03:21 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-112-244.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:10 ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 09:04:37 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.94] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:06:08 -!- Soulman [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:06:26 Soulman [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:07:01 Is there a clean way to get the actual environment for the null macroexpansion environment? 09:07:56 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:08:22 hello spiaggia 09:08:40 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 09:08:52 -!- brill [n=brill@0x57386175.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 09:09:16 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:09:27 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 09:10:32 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 09:10:53 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 09:12:00 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:12:17 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 09:12:59 slackjaw [n=jolyonw@host-62-245-143-202.customer.m-online.net] has joined #lisp 09:16:06 reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:19:18 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-225.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:22:06 -!- ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:25:30 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:07 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 09:26:30 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:51 anyone played with zkoss? 09:26:54 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA3CD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:27:09 it's a full featured ria library that's 100% cl-who ready 09:27:20 i can't believe nobody ever mentioned this 09:27:42 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA8E0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:27:54 as in, the whole mozilla interface + ajax + local storage .. in lisp markup, if you want 09:29:33 -!- Tosha [n=sekoret@91.200.45.21] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:30:24 the backend is intertwined with java, but the UI is clean xml. 09:31:20 evenson [n=evenson@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 09:32:05 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-148-90.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:32:47 perhaps nobody mentioned it because this isn't #ria-hype 09:32:47 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:33:09 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp16-146.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:33:45 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:36:12 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:00 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:38:00 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:38:59 _sana [n=sana@79.117.20.22] has joined #lisp 09:39:27 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:52 and it even works in IE, but it's slow as a dog 09:43:06 mikezor [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined 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[n=user@222.212.133.130] has joined #lisp 10:36:52 mvilleneuve, so I could buy "Les Mondes Engloutis" and understand what they say :/ 10:37:10 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 10:39:51 X-Scale [i=email@89-180-70-145.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 10:39:53 tic: it's not about Lisp, even though the title may suggest otherwise to some uninformed people :) 10:41:05 mvilleneuve, what does it mean, word-by-word? 10:41:22 monde sounds like soil/earth, but engloutis I don't know. 10:42:48 tic: something like "the swallowed worlds" 10:43:10 mvilleneuve, thanks! yeah, that indeed sounds like a Lisp reference. :) 10:44:02 :) 10:46:44 _3b: are you here? 10:46:46 Some weeks ago, you did some AVM2 benchmarking. Do you know AVM2 compares to JVM in terms of speed? 10:48:47 chii [i=chii@freenode/bot/chii] has joined #lisp 10:49:17 -!- msphix_ [n=msphix@aapa133.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:50:50 talking about AVM2 vs JVM....this graph is inspiring: http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_5Jqup-kC5TY/SB_b_JkuyZI/AAAAAAAAAFo/f-P0s6-xMZI/s1600-h/Untitled.png 10:50:51 X-Scale, memo from Riastradh: Edwin's lisppasting should work again, with sufficient kludgerosity to manage XML-RPC's bastard variant of ISO 8601. 10:51:37 _3b: To compare performance for the classes mentioned in my mail, I hacked up an analogous Java implementation. Parsing of the binary file takes seven to ten seconds in AVM2, and about a second in Java. Is that indicative of AVM2 speed in general in your opinion? 10:51:40 Thank you, Riastradh. I'll check it. 10:52:08 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:56:46 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit [] 10:57:42 Draggor1 [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:58:01 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:01:20 clhs 5.1.3 11:01:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/05_ac.htm 11:05:07 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:05:11 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:07:18 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279441483.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:09:34 is there anyone awake who understands X and ICCCM? 11:09:47 lichtblau: is it easy for you to run a clim application under gtkairo? 11:11:00 it was, before Athas improved the frontend and exposed endless gtkairo bugs 11:11:25 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:11:26 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-154-52.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:11:28 might work with -D '1 year ago' :-) 11:11:44 reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 11:13:33 bah 11:13:47 -!- hugod__ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633876.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:13:59 I am trying to fix the mcclim CLX "if the mouse cursor isn't in the window, NO KEYBOARD EVENTS FOR YOU" bug 11:14:12 I have got as far as understanding that that is an accurate description of the problem 11:14:20 I have no idea _why_ there are no keyboard events 11:14:39 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-200-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:14:50 *lichtblau* runs his WM with focus-follows-mouse policy anyway, so wouldn't notice this as a bug 11:14:58 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-200-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 11:15:17 lichtblau: not even sloppy focus? 11:15:26 or putting the mouse cursor over the window's title bar? 11:15:56 what do you mean: "title bar"? 11:17:54 is that a real question or a "my WM is so studly it doesn't have title bars" question? 11:18:47 the window manager decoration on a window. In my ubuntu, it is a brown graphic placed above the window with its window title 11:18:49 I disabled title bars in my .fvwm2rc about a decade ago and didn't look back. There are borders though, and clim-clx doesn't react to keyboard input when the mouse is on the border. Is that the bug? 11:19:00 that is the bug 11:19:25 Okay. I guess you actually wanted a result for clim-gtkairo though, right? 11:19:56 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-118-255.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:19:59 I actually want this bug to be not here any more, but knowing whether it's just CLX or all backends might be a step 11:20:33 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:21:16 knobo [n=user@148.122.202.247] has joined #lisp 11:21:16 it might not be, though 11:21:21 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has joined #lisp 11:21:32 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 11:21:56 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 11:22:56 loop should return the value in until :( But id does not ): 11:23:13 okay, I can confirm the "bug" in the address-book on gtkairo 11:23:52 (loop for x = (something) until x), should return x. But it does not. 11:24:31 my usual experience with trying to make mcclim and X cooperate is that I suck up X protocol/conventions knowledge until my brain is full, and I still can't work out what's going on 11:24:44 lichtblau: ok, that is actually surprising to me 11:25:21 thank you 11:26:00 now I understand even less of what is going on 11:27:00 oh, hey, look: there's some code in -D'3 years ago' that looks similar to the code I was going to try next 11:31:14 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 11:32:04 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 11:35:53 nikki93 [n=nikki@78.101.206.198] has joined #lisp 11:36:39 Nice! Lisp is really interesting. I just started yesterday. I wrote my own 'zip-with' function that calls a function on two corresponding elements of two lists and returns a list of the results: http://paste.lisp.org/display/75699 11:36:42 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-197-224-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 11:38:09 clhs mapcar 11:38:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mapc_.htm 11:38:15 nikki93: ^ for reference 11:38:17 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 11:38:46 H4ns: Yeah, but this calls a function that takes two parameters and then returns a map of the results (it takes two lists). 11:38:52 s/map/list/ 11:38:55 nikki93: note that common lisp has no guarantees regarding tail call elimination, so your version will exhaust the stack for long lists 11:39:16 H4ns: Oh. :( How does mapcar work then? 11:39:24 nikki93: iteratively 11:39:34 H4ns: Ah ok. But recursion is cooler. :) 11:39:37 nikki93: note that the map* functions accept multiple lists as arguments. 11:39:47 H4ns: Really? I'll check it out. 11:39:53 nikki93: recursion is cooler when it makes the intent clearer. 11:40:17 H4ns: Yeah. 11:40:26 eharry [n=Administ@117.22.187.49] has joined #lisp 11:40:41 -!- eharry [n=Administ@117.22.187.49] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:41:36 matley [n=matley@91.80.208.10] has joined #lisp 11:41:44 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:41:53 manuel___ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-185-251.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:42:21 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-185-251.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:42:35 H4ns: Does this help: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Debug-Tail-Recursion.html ? 11:42:46 Oh wait, I think that has to do only with debugging. 11:43:10 sphix [n=msphix@aarn239.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:43:21 milanj [n=milan@212.69.1.76] has joined #lisp 11:43:32 nikki93: right. i'm not saying that recursion is bad or anything, it is just not the preferred style to express iteration in common lisp, because common lisp has no guaranteed tail call elimination. 11:44:05 what compilers don't, though? :) 11:44:06 and your function isn't tail recursive anyway, to SBCL's support for TCO doesn't help 11:44:24 -!- sphix [n=msphix@aarn239.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 11:44:37 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:44:43 sphix [n=msphix@aarn239.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:44:44 Actually, I don't know about 'tail calls' (I'm just assuming they're recursive calls at the end of a function). I'll look it up. 11:44:47 :) 11:44:52 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [] 11:45:11 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:26 oops. 11:45:39 nikki93: lichtblau certainly is right. 11:45:54 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-156-254.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:46:22 -!- jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:46:43 Oh. Because I call 'cons' after that call, it isn't a tail call, right? 11:47:18 right 11:47:38 Ah. Thanks for the clarification. :) 11:48:08 Anyway, I have exams soon (these exams have nothing to do with computers/lips etc. :( ), so I'll have to go study. See ya! 11:48:37 -!- nikki93 is now known as nikki93-away 11:49:19 mind you, the code that I am potentially adding back won't fix the same problem in gtkairo 11:49:28 *Xof* dissolves into a fit of confusion 11:49:53 Xof: welcome! 11:50:55 What's the state of LoL? 11:51:15 I want to use UCW but then I realized it's not a full stack web framework. 11:54:27 I'm looking for a CL alternative to Rails. I plan on using an object store so I don't really need an ORM. 11:55:45 evenson [n=evenson@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 12:01:11 -!- evenson [n=evenson@213.47.71.36] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:02:00 evenson [n=evenson@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 12:08:15 -!- NATASHA [n=NATASHA@62.85.107.116] has quit ["MegaIRC v4.05 http://ironfist.at.tut.by"] 12:11:12 psyllo: Have you looked at weblocks? 12:11:59 -!- whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa26] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:12:10 there also "is" claw 12:14:24 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 12:15:26 whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa26] has joined #lisp 12:15:55 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:16:42 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 12:17:39 Zhivago: I have looked a weblocks. My first impression is that it's not as widely used and possibly less maintained. I could be wrong. 12:18:17 -!- whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:18:21 psyllo: there is no common lisp "web framework" that is "widely used" 12:18:54 kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has joined #lisp 12:19:01 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 12:19:42 whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa26] has joined #lisp 12:19:46 I WIN^WDON'T LOSE QUITE AS MUCH 12:19:47 H4ns: So, you are saying that no matter which I use I am looking at about the same issues as far as momentum behind the web framework. 12:20:31 psyllo: basically yes. i think ucw has the largest number of users, like, say 5-6 or so 12:21:48 psyllo: i mean to say: chose whatever seems to be most accessible to you personally. 12:22:05 or build your own 12:22:14 :} 12:22:39 -!- whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa26] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:22:56 H4ns: That is very helpful information. Sounds like all users are also contributors. 12:23:38 psyllo: right. you'll also have to read quite some source code in order to get going. 12:24:06 H4ns: I figured that much already :) 12:24:15 lichtblau: I think I understand what was going on in the CLX backend, at least 12:24:55 H4ns: What about aserve + webactions? 12:25:12 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 12:25:25 psyllo: oh, yes, that is "widely used" among acl users i guess 12:25:25 in the olden days, we used to xlib:set-input-focus to an individual gadgety window. This was vaguely lossy in that it (I think) didn't get all the timestamp stuff right, and also at the time mcclim implemented a loony "point-at-text-field-to-focus" policy 12:26:09 H4ns: I started playing with webactions but then kept getting curious about a continuations based web framework. 12:26:59 karpar [n=karpar@58.207.160.202] has joined #lisp 12:27:15 I removed that point-at-text-field-to-focus stuff, implementing click-on-text-field to focus, and at the same time I think I set up a "manual" dispatch of events to the particular focused widget, rather than getting X to do it 12:27:27 I do have an ACL license and that's why I started down that route. 12:27:34 that "manual" dispatch doesn't work so well if the top-level sheet doesn't accept keyboard events 12:27:57 psyllo: nothing wrong with that. if you're prepared to pay franz for deployments too, acl is a fine environment. 12:28:56 lichtblau: for the CLX backend, I can fix approximately everything by having realize-mirror on a top-level sheet include key-press and key-release in its event mask 12:28:58 toddoon_ [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:34 now, where are hefner and beach? 12:31:15 WFM, I'm only using clim-clx anyway. 12:31:42 H4ns: Yeah, their royalties are a constant deterrent for me to fully commit to using their Lisp when I can otherwise accomplish that thing with SBCL or LispWorks. 12:32:42 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:32:43 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-185-251.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 12:33:37 (grep for connect-signals in port.lisp if you care about gtkairo more than I do) 12:34:07 -!- _sana [n=sana@79.117.20.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:35:22 whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa26] has joined #lisp 12:35:39 -!- whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:35:42 -!- gaja_ [n=Gabriel@c-0689e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:35:49 _sana [n=sana@79.117.20.159] has joined #lisp 12:36:36 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:26 whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa26] has joined #lisp 12:38:51 auclairb [n=auclairb@206.167.180.24] has joined #lisp 12:38:55 lboard [n=lboard@122.165.28.253] has joined #lisp 12:39:02 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:39:06 is it possible to set a break-point in slime 12:40:54 lboard: you can always insert a (BREAK "foo") in your source code 12:41:16 lichtblau: my fix WFY? 12:41:31 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:42:58 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:43:59 antoni [n=user@190.pool85-53-19.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 12:44:51 -!- kg [n=imkin@little-black-box.vmware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:45:22 kg [n=imkin@little-black-box.vmware.com] has joined #lisp 12:46:15 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 12:47:33 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:47:49 yes, your fix works for me. 12:47:53 (What I actually meant was that not fixing clim-gtkairo is fine with me though.) 12:48:05 -!- karpar [n=karpar@58.207.160.202] has quit [] 12:48:59 I'll see if hefner can corroborate that my fix works and/or is vaguely correct 12:49:05 I finally understand why using "loop" is not so good idea. 12:49:11 thanks 12:49:35 It took me 3-4 years befor I understood. 12:49:49 or, not always a good idea. 12:52:15 -!- antoni [n=user@190.pool85-53-19.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:52:40 antoni [n=user@190.pool85-53-19.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 12:54:18 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:38 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:01:21 dl [n=user@c-76-113-113-75.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:03:49 reaver___ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:04:51 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.130] has quit [Success] 13:05:24 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:05:41 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:05:59 loop is good where its idioms happen to be aligned with what you want to do 13:06:20 robyonrails [n=roby@host136-154-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:07:23 same could be said of bubonic plague, but examples would be less compelling 13:08:58 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.230.239] has joined #lisp 13:10:06 -!- dl [n=user@c-76-113-113-75.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has left #lisp 13:12:02 Astro [n=astro@saturn.astro.spaceboyz.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:11 -!- Astro [n=astro@saturn.astro.spaceboyz.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:12:35 -!- matley [n=matley@91.80.208.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:13:23 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.69.1.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:14:08 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [] 13:15:22 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:16:12 Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.158.114] has joined #lisp 13:16:13 As long as applicative code is isolated to a few variables it is still reasonably easy to reason over 13:17:00 The limited lexical scope of loop helps 13:18:18 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@206.167.180.24] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:18:27 More interesting is the discussion on comp.lang.lisp on making alist of random numbers 13:19:00 Not realizing that pushnew creates a statistical bias 13:19:20 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:19:39 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:19:51 unbiased random numbers are for wussies :) 13:19:53 This could go straight through a test suite, and no-one would be the wiser (thanks Rob) 13:21:01 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:05 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:21:42 I wonder if it's me failing a Turing test right now or someone else 13:22:54 then again, some of the things right above are so good as to be theoretically quotable (in that it's sort of hard to imagine an appropriate context to quote them in) 13:24:17 Pushnew creates a n^2 space with all of the a = b states eliminated, it does not have have the same probability as picking n random values in a sequence 13:25:33 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:26:17 this makes no sens (for somebody not familiar with the c.l.l. discussion, apparently) 13:26:20 *sense 13:26:53 Irregardless [n=heysquid@122.162.158.114] has joined #lisp 13:26:57 rsynnott_ [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 13:27:01 sorry about that. 13:28:42 would you permit me to paste a couple of resposes topaste.lisp.org to illustrate? 13:29:02 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:30:29 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 13:31:21 http://paste.lisp.org/display/75706 13:33:18 rsynnott1 [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 13:34:11 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.158.114] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:34:20 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:34:36 -!- antoni [n=user@190.pool85-53-19.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:35:10 -!- rsynnott_ [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:35:28 http://paste.lisp.org/display/75707 13:37:10 so how does pusnew create n^2 space? 13:37:16 pushnew even 13:38:28 and how is the randomness decreased after that? 13:39:41 You are going over the sequence twice once to find the values and the second to make sure the value isn't in your sequence already 13:40:46 Take the matrix of possible soultions and cross out the ones wher the value of row equals the value of colums 13:41:22 huhwha? 13:41:25 and compare it to the combinatorical solution 13:41:46 pushnew has to walk the list only once 13:41:53 yes 13:42:05 for yeach interned value 13:42:36 yes, where does the second traversal happen? 13:43:22 when you generate the values 13:44:00 values are generated by random -- no lists are traversed 13:44:05 But the order is not important here.. 13:44:13 sigh 13:45:00 excuse me if i'm wrong, but isn' t the problem still to generate a list of unique random numbers? 13:45:01 jdz: Interference from the Van Allen Belt. 13:45:28 -!- lboard [n=lboard@122.165.28.253] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:39 jdz: yes and of a given range 13:45:53 which does not matter at all in this discussion 13:46:07 -!- Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.158.114] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:47:07 Actually it does, if it was floating point we would face a different range of probems 13:47:20 but it isn' t 13:47:24 right 13:47:37 so it still does not matter 13:47:53 so where do double traversals come in? 13:49:07 You either know combinatorics or you don't, I am not your teacher.. 13:50:22 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 13:51:08 The-Kenn1 [n=moritz@p5087F3AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:04 please point me to the place where you think combinatorics were mentioned in this discussion (either in thepastes or in what i said, not in your random rambling) 13:52:16 -!- ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@mustang.lysator.liu.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:52:34 why don't you continue this discussion where it came from, in comp.lang.lisp? 13:52:44 jdz: the first paste 13:53:05 no combinatorics in there 13:55:57 http://paste.lisp.org/display/75709 13:56:14 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E4B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:32 I'm reminded of some crazy homeless person trying to explain his unified theory of ether vortices to people walking by. it's probably better to just move on than engage them in a discussion about the theory 13:57:00 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:00 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1F975.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:29 younder: you fail. still no smell of combinatorics. 13:58:44 younder: bye bye. 13:58:58 Forget it! I'll try to write a coherent paper about it.. 14:00:14 sorry to waste your time 14:02:34 *younder* is trying to show that mathemaical verification beats testing because it brings up issues the author never thought about. (but apparetly failing..) 14:03:43 manic12_ [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:11 KingThomasIV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:59 this is funny after all you said before: a coherent paper + younder 14:05:22 but i wish you luck anyway 14:06:13 Mathematics is images in the mind. It is sometimes difficult to portray them on usenet 14:09:40 manuel__ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:23 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:18:39 antoni [n=user@66.pool85-53-26.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 14:20:28 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:21:16 -!- KingThomasV [n=KingThom@c-66-177-17-200.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:21:40 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:22:14 -!- kg [n=imkin@little-black-box.vmware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:22:19 kg [n=imkin@little-black-box.vmware.com] has joined #lisp 14:24:27 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:25:57 ampleyfly [n=ampleyfl@mustang.lysator.liu.se] has joined #lisp 14:26:15 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has 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[n=nyef@pool-64-223-182-13.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:33 G'morning all. 15:20:39 helo nyef 15:20:43 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 15:21:39 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:22:12 guille_ [n=guille_@4.Red-81-37-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:25 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:22:32 thoolihan [n=thooliha@32.144.116.155] has joined #lisp 15:22:40 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:22:59 totzeit [n=user@dsl102.zipcon.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:10 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 15:23:32 -!- Bribek [n=Bribek@lenio-pat.lenio.dk] has quit [] 15:23:42 -!- emacs-dwim [n=user@cpe-74-71-13-156.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:24:06 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:25:50 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 15:26:24 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.230.239] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:26:32 -!- p4r0l3_ is now known as p4r0l3 15:26:46 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:28:02 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:28:18 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 15:28:22 slime seems more belligerent about fighting my loop indentation than I remember in the past 15:28:38 -!- eno_ is now known as eno 15:29:14 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:29:25 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 15:30:58 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 15:31:51 hefner: are you using non-standard indentation? 15:31:54 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:32:28 (I have noticed that slime will occasionally decide that, on relflection, it was wrong about the first style of loop indentation it imposed, and will change it) 15:32:29 what's standard for LOOP? I don't want it indenting my loop body five spaces, if that's what you mean. 15:32:59 it used to be that after I fixed the first form in the body, everything would line up to that. Today every subsequent form gets indented to 5, regardless of what's above it. 15:33:08 http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/doc/CommonLISP/HyperSpec/Body/mac_loop.html - but the standard commands it! 15:33:25 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 15:33:45 (well, not explicitly, it just does it like that in examples) 15:33:55 I don't think those are representative. There's no non-simple loop there with a multiline body. 15:34:21 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:34:58 anyway, I nest them three times, so it would look awful 15:35:05 (and I can't use dotimes here) 15:35:11 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@209-188-122-100.taosnet.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:14 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:32 mmmh, three nested LOOPs. that's tasty! 15:35:38 ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:52 chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.163.148.15] has joined #lisp 15:35:52 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 15:36:26 -!- chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.163.148.15] has left #lisp 15:36:48 it isn't remarkable. three indices, three loops. 15:36:49 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:36:54 brute force! 15:38:31 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 15:38:49 _Soulman_ [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:39:01 clearly, the slime authors are in cahoots with the monitor manufacturers who insist we should all be using wide-screen monitors 15:39:27 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:39:49 I don't doubt it. 15:40:34 I suppose this kind of thing would be a feature if I had unbalanced the parens somewhere above (instead of scaring me into thinking I had) 15:40:45 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-242-241.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 15:41:09 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 15:41:46 thoolihan_ [n=thooliha@32.145.135.70] has joined #lisp 15:42:05 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:43:34 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-242-241.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:43:50 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 15:44:42 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:45:36 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:46:22 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 15:47:14 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:48:04 -!- _sana [n=sana@79.117.20.159] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:48:45 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 15:49:14 hefner: I think I have fixed the stupid mcclim focus thing 15:49:31 I'd like to know that it works for you too 15:49:38 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:51:08 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 15:51:18 Im using sb-profile and every run gives different results in the consed column, is this normal ? 15:51:40 yep 15:51:45 profile or sprof? 15:51:52 profile 15:52:00 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:52:28 Hrm. I'd have thought it deterministic if the program behavior is deterministic and the same between runs. 15:52:49 hefner: if you add :key-press :key-release to the event-mask in Backends/CLX/port.lisp realize-mirror (clx-port top-level-sheet-pane), does almost everything work? 15:52:51 nyef: same 15:53:19 Are you clearing the profiling results between runs? 15:53:31 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 15:53:40 nyef: yup, im unprofiling, reseting, reprofiling eery run 15:53:43 every run 15:54:23 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:54:28 The number of calls, estimated profile overhead, are the same every run 15:54:28 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-19-115.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:54:37 the consing is tracked at a page level 15:54:41 not at a byte level 15:54:58 jsnell: For the non-statistical profiler? 15:55:39 jsnell: does that mean a method that conses very little can be reported as not consing? 15:56:08 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 15:56:18 -!- slackjaw [n=jolyonw@host-62-245-143-202.customer.m-online.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:56:31 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:01 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:57:11 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:57:26 i think so. (* 12345678 12345678) doesn't cons for a few times, then it's reported as 8kb 15:57:41 though that seems too big. why does it use 2 pages? 15:57:43 nyef: I don't know where you'd get non-page level allocation data from 15:57:58 Fair enough. It's been a long time since I've used a profiler. 15:58:08 Xof: it does! 15:58:12 because the gc never allocates just a single page at a time 15:58:18 ok 15:58:23 Sure, but you can still look at the allocation pointer. 15:58:25 hefner: that sounds good 15:58:32 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 15:58:44 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:58:46 depending on which functions i profile, the same method can cons anywhere from 600,000 to 3,800,000 for the same run on the same data 15:58:50 but there isn't one in gencgc 15:59:11 profiling can cause additional consing 15:59:23 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:59:38 but unless you have some particular reason to use sb-profile, I'd recommend using sb-sprof instead 15:59:43 also don't unprofiled callees add to the caller's consing counts? 16:00:35 indeed 16:00:54 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:01:48 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:02:20 Ugh. The x86oid conditionalization of the debugger internals has gone too far. 16:03:19 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:03:29 In replace-frame-catch-tag, there are instances of the non-x86oid version being a stack-ref, and the x86oid version being (make-lisp-obj (sap-ref-word ...)), which is semantically equivalent to a stack-ref. 16:03:33 eslick [n=eslick@pool-71-184-179-158.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:14 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:04:50 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@32.144.116.155] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:04:51 -!- thoolihan_ is now known as thoolihan 16:04:53 Three twitter libraries were written simultaneously this week, go figure 16:04:55 Ah, I see... It isn't equivalent, because stack-ref inverts the index... 16:05:06 -!- alinp [n=alinp@86.122.9.2] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:05:57 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:06:51 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:07:52 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 16:08:31 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:09:24 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:10:07 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@32.145.135.70] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"] 16:11:04 thoolihan [n=thooliha@32.145.135.70] has joined #lisp 16:11:08 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:11:50 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:12:45 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody booted me"] 16:13:31 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:14:07 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-094-228.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:25 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:15:00 Edico [n=Edico@unaffiliated/edico] has joined #lisp 16:16:11 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:17:11 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:18:38 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 16:18:42 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:19:44 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:19:51 -!- evan_ [n=evan@65-183-142-159-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:19:52 -!- peddie [n=peddie@18.224.1.192] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:22 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:20:25 willb [n=wibenton@wireless108.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:20:39 chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.163.148.15] has joined #lisp 16:21:15 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:21:26 Not one, not two, but THREE twitter clients for CL are being developed simultaneously! 16:21:47 Proof that people use Common Lisp :) 16:22:17 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:22:36 Two are already released. I will release the third one in a couple of days. 16:23:19 what is a "twitter library"? 16:23:37 A client library for accessing the twitter API 16:23:38 i mean, why is a library needed to talk to twitter? 16:23:51 It's what all the various clients out there use to talk to twitter 16:24:01 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:24:11 I use twitter as an easy data feed so I can pass data from various clients back to a CL process 16:24:12 Yes, but why do you need a -library- for it? 16:24:29 i wrote a twitter client a while ago, too, but i did not feel that i needed a library to do that. 16:24:50 Just saves time for other folks who want to do the same thing; it's not a ton of work of course 16:25:03 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:25:13 But abstracting away all the parsing, error handling, lispifying commands, etc is nice 16:25:18 -!- Draggor1 is now known as Draggor 16:25:50 I am just writing mine so that I can send my twitter updates from the REPL :P 16:25:52 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 16:25:52 eslick: hm, i see. i found that trivial, but i'll curiously look at the documentation of these three libraries to decide whether i need one next time :) 16:26:05 And view them my friend's updates too from the REPL 16:26:36 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:27:40 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:29:25 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:30:12 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-094-228.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:30:21 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:30:27 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:31:15 chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-094-228.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:58 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:32:08 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 16:32:59 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:34:11 doxtor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-14-228.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:30 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:35:18 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:35:28 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:35:38 -!- chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.163.148.15] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:36:23 thoolihan_ [n=thooliha@32.146.2.220] has joined #lisp 16:37:12 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:37:44 -!- sphix [n=msphix@aarn239.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:37:57 http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-twitter/ looks quite neat, actually 16:38:08 parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-46-146.sqpk.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:15 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:39:34 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:39:43 wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-117-45.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 16:39:44 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:39:46 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:40:33 sphix [n=msphix@aarn239.neoplus.adsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:40:48 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:41:10 thoolihan__ [n=thooliha@32.150.129.210] has joined #lisp 16:42:19 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:43:10 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:44:41 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:44:42 someone probably needs to do something about macdaddy 16:45:24 josemanuel [n=josemanu@75.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:45:43 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:46:44 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 16:47:15 macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 16:48:50 -!- whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa26] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:50:38 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:53:59 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:15 -!- a-s` [n=user@85.9.55.98] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:55:59 milanj [n=milan@cable-89-216-113-6.static.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 16:56:26 thoolihan___ [n=thooliha@32.150.153.217] has joined #lisp 16:58:42 Muzzleflash [n=Muzzlefl@d40a2415.rev.stofanet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:59:07 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@4.Red-81-37-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:59:30 -!- Muzzleflash [n=Muzzlefl@d40a2415.rev.stofanet.dk] has left #lisp 17:00:50 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@32.145.135.70] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:00:59 guille_ [n=guille_@4.Red-81-37-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:48 -!- thoolihan__ [n=thooliha@32.150.129.210] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:48 -!- thoolihan_ [n=thooliha@32.146.2.220] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:17 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:04:21 -!- knobo [n=user@148.122.202.247] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:06:10 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 17:06:40 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 17:07:33 -!- toddoon_ [n=guillaum@mic92-8-82-234-142-186.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:16 Doug Hoyte: PS. Come to think of it, not even the standard is dogmatic about the earmuffs. There are at least 6 special variables defined by ANSI that don't begin and end with asterisks. 17:09:25 -!- antoni [n=user@66.pool85-53-26.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:10:05 (do-external-symbols (sym :cl) (when (and (special-variable-p sym) (not (position #\* (symbol-name sym)))) (print sym))) ;; did he really mean / // /// + ++ +++ ? 17:10:10 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 17:10:19 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 17:10:23 ayrnieu: those are an exception 17:10:30 *ayrnieu* learns about the - variable 17:10:36 There's an obvi... yeah, -. 17:10:45 shortest. quine. ever. 17:10:47 yeah, but those aren't very interesting exceptions. 17:10:55 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 17:11:02 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit ["Be back later"] 17:11:05 Xof: doesn't work in sbcl's inspector, though. 17:11:37 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:11:39 thoolihan [n=thooliha@32.148.15.188] has joined #lisp 17:12:04 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 17:12:49 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 17:14:56 jacks- [n=inca@adsl-75-43-33-7.dsl.skt2ca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:56 -!- thoolihan___ [n=thooliha@32.150.153.217] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:57 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-242-241.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 17:17:44 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit ["Be back later"] 17:18:02 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-204-206.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:18:06 bhz- [n=matt@ip70-185-126-119.ga.at.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:29 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:20:03 Do you guys provide ECL help? 17:20:07 -!- nikki93-away is now known as nikki93 17:20:31 nyef: Ah, hi, I remember you from yesterday. :) I had to go sleep, so I didn't see your reply. 17:20:54 nikki93: Just dump whatever ECL question you have and maybe someone will answer it. 17:22:08 Well, I'm looking for an ECL C library function like cl_bind(pointer_to_C_function, name_of_lisp_function, min_params, max_params). 17:22:10 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host136-154-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 17:23:35 ecls-list@lists.sourceforge.net should certainly provide ecl help 17:23:54 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:55 Like, cl_bind(&sin, "c-sin", 1, 1), then cl_print(1,cl_eval(cl_object_from_string("(c-sin 20)")) would print "0.9129453". 17:24:25 -!- chris2 [n=chris@dslb-094-216-094-228.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:25:01 Unfortunately, I've never used mailing lists and am totally a newbie in that field (when I started out with programming, I relied on forums mainly). 17:25:08 peddie [n=peddie@GUGGENHEIM-THREE-SEVENTY-THREE.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:25:45 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 17:25:46 nikki93: Also there is some lisp forum, maybe you can find some ECL users there :) 17:25:47 I'll browse the mailing lists for some help though. GMane was far easier to read than lists.sf.net. :| 17:25:51 -!- jacks- [n=inca@adsl-75-43-33-7.dsl.skt2ca.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:25:56 schme: Ok. 17:26:00 Greetings! 17:26:12 schme: Till then I think I'll just keeping grepping around the ECL source code. :) 17:26:25 That's always a good solution (: 17:26:38 nikki93: http://www.lispforum.com/ . Maybe, maybe not. 17:26:40 Your reverse emoticon makes me jump. 17:26:53 reverse emoticons gonna make you JUMP JUMP. 17:26:55 Feels like your neck's broken or something. :P 17:26:59 thoolihan_ [n=thooliha@32.151.114.114] has joined #lisp 17:27:06 http://dir.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.ecl.general 17:27:07 I've been doing them like that since 1991 I tell you. 17:27:25 stassats: <3 17:27:58 1991 I was -2 years old. 17:28:03 Heh. 17:28:09 Hi all. What's the easiest way to draw graphics in common lisp? 17:28:24 thoolihan__ [n=thooliha@32.151.83.36] has joined #lisp 17:28:25 vecto? 17:28:26 mooglenorph: There might be some OpenGL bindings. 17:28:26 mooglenorph: Depends on the graphics I guess :) 17:28:30 I'm looking at cl-sdl right now, which seems fine. Is there anything simpler though? 17:28:33 The easiest way to do anything is typically not to. 17:28:42 2d graphs of mathematical functions 17:28:45 nyef: But then you're not doing it. :| 17:28:46 There are opengl bindings, also sdl, and well... some GUI things. 17:28:48 mooglenorph: Cairo? 17:28:50 color [n=legi@c-66-229-119-91.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:00 -!- color is now known as jacks- 17:29:01 mooglenorph: I think lispbuilder-sdl is hmmm.. "better" than cl-sdl. 17:29:10 -!- thoolihan__ [n=thooliha@32.151.83.36] has quit [Client Quit] 17:29:11 gnuplot? 17:29:19 mooglenorph: http://www.cliki.net/cl-cairo 17:29:23 schme: ahh, sorry, I meant lispbuilder-sdl. 17:29:46 mooglenorph: there are some interfaces to GNUplot, those are probably easiest. They dump GNUplot command files. 17:30:09 if I use gnuplot, I'm not writing the program myself from graphics primitives (it's an exsersize for myself, should've specified) 17:30:35 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 17:30:45 minion: tell mooglenorph about McCLIM 17:30:46 mooglenorph: direct your attention towards McCLIM: McCLIM is Mike McDonald's Free and portable implementation of CLIM, the Common Lisp ueber-Graphics Toolkit and a Common Lisp Library. http://www.cliki.net/McCLIM 17:31:19 iaindalton [n=user@host-72-174-169-236.cdc-ut.client.bresnan.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:44 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:47 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:31:58 mooglenorph: But it all kinda depends on what you actually plan on doing with your gfx :) 17:32:33 I was thinking a command-line interface that can render functions on a little window 17:32:39 Sort of like R 17:32:58 except not nearly as capable 17:33:07 nunb [n=user@host16-102-static.28-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:33:22 mooglenorph: You can just take the CLIM listener, open a window, and use the CLIM graphics functions to draw. It is very simple. 17:33:28 So, it takes a function, iterates through values and plots them? That's it? 17:33:33 thoolihan__ [n=thooliha@32.151.83.36] has joined #lisp 17:33:39 mooglenorph: Ah yes. McCLIM for you :) 17:33:41 mooglenorph: Above messages for you. 17:33:49 nikki93: yeah, that's all. 17:33:53 mooglenorph: Ah ok. 17:34:03 Also, I want to draw things like vector fields and curves for functions. 17:34:30 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@32.148.15.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:34:33 -!- thoolihan__ is now known as thoolihan 17:34:47 cliki graphics library 17:34:59 We need a bot interface to cliki 17:35:12 minion: graphics library? 17:35:13 graphics library: Common Lisp graphics libraries. http://www.cliki.net/graphics%20library 17:35:16 Anyway, check out http://www.cliki.net/graphics%20library 17:35:16 wish granted 17:35:28 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:35:57 I've been looking through there, but there's a plethora of options which are hard to evaluate. I've never done any graphics programming, least of all in CL. 17:36:19 Krystof: Thanks, now can we consolidate the bot functions into 1 interface? Ala clhs foo? 17:36:57 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:37:23 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:37:44 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [] 17:38:05 thoolihan__ [n=thooliha@32.147.214.124] has joined #lisp 17:38:14 mooglenorph: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/graphics.png 17:38:41 beach: oh, cool 17:38:51 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:39 dwave [n=ask@062249177064.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 17:39:40 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-30-69.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 17:39:53 What's the best source for documentation of simple drawing functions in mcclim? 17:40:30 clim draw-point* 17:40:30 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/12-5.html#_619 17:40:38 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:17 This is perfect for what I want to do. Thanks. 17:41:20 nikki93: cl_make_cfun cl_make_cfun_va cl_make_cclosure_va cl_def_c_function &c, ecl/external.h 17:41:26 Gah! See, specbot, minion. We need unification. I'm so confused. :-P 17:42:01 no, we don't 17:42:24 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:52 Indeed, we don't need to unify them. minion is for cliki lookups and random functionality, lisppaste is for new paste announcements, and specbot is for spec lookups. 17:43:29 thoolihan___ [n=thooliha@32.148.6.116] has joined #lisp 17:43:34 Technically, lisppaste through lisppaste8 or so is for new paste announcements. 17:45:22 ayrnieu pasted "cl_def_c_function example for nikki93" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75720 17:45:25 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 17:47:35 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 17:48:31 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@94.198.78.26] has quit [] 17:48:37 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:49:44 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [Client Quit] 17:49:58 -!- thoolihan_ [n=thooliha@32.151.114.114] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:01 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 17:52:23 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:52:58 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:33 ok, don't even think about using the password in that screenshot. I changed it. 17:53:44 thanks to both luis and stassats for spotting that. 17:53:48 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@75.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 17:54:46 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:54:56 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:55:14 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 17:56:02 -!- macdaddy [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit [Client Quit] 17:56:28 heh 17:56:45 -!- TDT [n=TDT@113.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has quit ["leaving"] 17:56:50 OK, I have done my good McCLIM deed for the day (possibly week) 17:56:52 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@4.Red-81-37-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:57:57 TDT [n=TDT@113.91.248.216.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:35 Hmm, I never use window streams like that. I probably should; that's what they're for. 17:58:57 [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.27] has joined #lisp 18:00:16 guille_ [n=guille_@4.Red-81-37-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:34 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:01:47 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:02 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:02:39 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@32.151.83.36] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:02:41 -!- thoolihan___ is now known as thoolihan 18:02:57 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 18:03:43 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:21 I'm trying out the statistical profile and it seems i spend half the time in SB-VM::GENERIC-+, Is there an easy way for me to locate those calls? 18:05:36 tritchey [n=tritchey@173.15.15.30] has joined #lisp 18:06:12 + calls it, if it can't optimize 18:06:30 when you use (declaim (optimize speed)), sbcl warns you when it has to use generic-+ 18:06:59 -!- thoolihan__ [n=thooliha@32.147.214.124] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:07:02 the call graph in sprof's output is meant to give you that information 18:07:09 Not so much "WARNs", but "NOTEs". 18:07:13 true 18:08:12 So, I just noticed something. (sap-ref-sap ...) is equivalent to (int-sap (sap-ref-word ...)) on all non-alpha platforms, isn't it? 18:08:53 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:09:20 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 18:09:33 (Alpha is an exception, as it uses 32-bit words and 64-bit saps.) 18:10:12 Also, what should "WARNING: No sampling progress; possibly a profiler bug." tell me? 18:10:42 it means you didn't profile for long enough. 18:12:02 pkhuong: I guess I'll reread the man page 18:12:31 try using :loop t (if your code can be run in a loop) 18:12:50 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:13:05 Fufie [n=innocent@86.80-203-225.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:13:38 Hun: isn't that the default ? 18:13:50 not sure. i always supply it 18:14:07 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 18:14:33 there's a voodoo element to making it work. 18:14:53 true 18:14:53 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cpe90-146-117-45.liwest.at] has quit [] 18:15:19 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [] 18:15:33 hefner: that's what it seems, the first time it stopped at 97 samples, then 27, then 22 then 33, always with the this may be a bug message 18:15:41 -!- peddie [n=peddie@GUGGENHEIM-THREE-SEVENTY-THREE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:17 -!- eslick [n=eslick@pool-71-184-179-158.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Reverting to analog"] 18:16:25 auclairb: if you're on the same code snippet as yesterday, you'll want to declare the type of your variables. 18:16:32 eslick [n=eslick@pool-71-184-179-158.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:10 -!- Irregardless is now known as Aankhen`` 18:17:29 pkhuon: im unsure what you mean, I should declare variable types in every function that is called ? 18:17:52 you should declare when it matters 18:18:25 if you do (let ((x (x-of foo)) (y (y-of foo))) (+ x y)), there's a priori no way for the compiler to know what the types of x and y are, so it has to call the generic version. 18:18:33 exactly what matters comes with experience. sbcl can do a lot of type-inference when some times are known and the functions can't be changed without recompiling the function 18:19:41 Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.158.114] has joined #lisp 18:20:12 -!- Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.158.114] has quit [Client Quit] 18:21:15 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:32 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-0b25b3e6dba8b208] has joined #lisp 18:21:50 If you can't find a way to do more computation/accessor call, you probably want to use structures instead of classes and/or transpose your data structures to work with, e.g., objects filled with vectors instead of a vector of objects. 18:22:56 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:24:18 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 18:26:03 Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.158.114] has joined #lisp 18:26:16 -!- Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.158.114] has quit [Client Quit] 18:26:35 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@32.148.6.116] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"] 18:26:48 chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.163.148.15] has joined #lisp 18:27:21 repnop [n=repnop@adsl-69-226-108-194.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:02 Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.158.114] has joined #lisp 18:28:13 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:28:15 -!- Grilinctus [n=heysquid@122.162.158.114] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:28:17 antoni [n=user@66.pool85-53-5.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 18:29:53 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.158.114] has quit ["But how are you going to do that? I plan to enter her sickroom disguised as a thermometer."] 18:30:08 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.158.114] has joined #lisp 18:33:02 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 18:34:19 lichtblau: http://www.cliki.net/Library links to your inaccessible http://www.lichteblau.com/code/forloop/ 18:34:57 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 18:35:00 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:36:26 thanks, link removed 18:38:24 evenson [n=evenson@213.47.71.36] has joined #lisp 18:38:57 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:32 -!- dwave [n=ask@062249177064.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 18:43:13 -!- Modius__ is now known as Modius 18:45:55 Over 2 years after picking it up, CL is still hitting me with "oh shi*" moments. Macros that themselves expand into "macrolets". Outer macros that transform the exact same "input" in radically different way into different code. 18:46:53 LostMonarch [n=roby@host136-154-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:48:58 I'm using a macro that's like "macrolet" but that, for each bound macro, restores the outer/prior definition at the start of its expansion (has proved useful for code-walking). Does this have a name? 18:49:54 Modius: don't think so. 18:50:19 -!- eslick [n=eslick@pool-71-184-179-158.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Reverting to analog"] 18:51:27 eslick [n=eslick@pool-71-184-179-158.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:12 I just screwed up a commit to my local git repository. I fixed the file that I have checked out. Is there an easy way to alter the last commit without damaging the commit message or anything? 18:52:43 commit --amend 18:52:50 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:53:10 I'm not seeing that in the git-commit manpage. 18:53:16 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:45 Oh, there it is. 18:53:46 it's been a while, but I'm pretty sure it was amend 18:53:59 Yeah, I just can't spell today, I think. 18:54:39 tcr1 [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:55:27 josemanuel [n=josemanu@75.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:56:04 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 18:56:14 That did it, thanks. 19:00:06 -!- nikki93 [n=nikki@78.101.206.198] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:41 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:02:06 -!- antoni [n=user@66.pool85-53-5.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:05:52 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 19:07:17 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-200-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:10:24 tsuru [n=user@66.199.17.194] has joined #lisp 19:12:05 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:12:34 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-200-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 19:13:15 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:45 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:51 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:14:00 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-185-251.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:14:17 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:14:55 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-222.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:19 -!- chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.163.148.15] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:18:04 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.152] has joined #lisp 19:19:10 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:19:30 -!- nunb [n=user@host16-102-static.28-79-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:20:30 dwave [n=ask@062249177064.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 19:20:52 raji [i=raji@unaffiliated/raji] has joined #lisp 19:21:28 i'm a good C programmer. I want to learn functional programming. Which are good books to functional programming concepts rather than language more at a tutorial level ? 19:21:53 I'd argue for SICP here. 19:21:59 SICP 19:22:07 this channel is not about functional programming 19:22:08 minion: SICP 19:22:08 SICP: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available gratis from (HTML), (texinfo) and (XHTML, PDF). Accompanying video lectures are available gratis at 19:22:12 I'd also argue that functional programing is not particularly lispy or on-topic. 19:22:28 look in #haskell 19:22:48 minion: PAIP 19:22:49 PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 19:24:50 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.180.42.154] has joined #lisp 19:25:09 raji: f 19:25:21 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 19:25:25 frodef, f ? 19:25:47 faji: "functional programming" can mean several things. "programming without side-effects" is one meaning that doesn't really apply to lisp. 19:26:03 raji: sorry, keyboard trouble :) 19:26:14 *nyef* has always liked the definition of "functional" that means "working". 19:26:24 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 19:26:37 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-200-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:26:42 raji: "programming with higher-order functions etc" applies nicely to lisp. 19:26:56 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-200-56.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:58 they are completely separate concepts. 19:27:43 i thought more of side-effects 19:28:08 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89-180-70-145.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:28:26 programs perfectly free of side effects are literally as stable as a brick on the ground. they don't do anything. ;) 19:28:44 In lisp, parenthese isn't counted as a token? http://paste.lisp.org/display/75725 19:28:50 hrmn, on second thought, I'm not gonna get sucked into this. 19:29:02 -!- raji [i=raji@unaffiliated/raji] has left #lisp 19:29:02 otoh, controlling/managing side-effects is probably the most important aspect of programming in any language. 19:29:13 true 19:29:45 tomoyuki28jp: What do you mean? What is the paste supposed to mean? 19:30:12 raji, #scheme or #clojure can give you more sympathetic answers. But I'd recommend On Lisp. Before it flies into macrospace, it has five relevant chapters. 19:30:12 that code isn't common lisp. 19:30:57 Fade - that is Arc and then web4r, a CL library. 19:31:09 ah 19:31:16 *rsynnott1* wonders how the fanatical FP people handle, say, UIs 19:31:29 i've always wondered how they handle IO 19:31:42 monads 19:31:43 tcr1: pg doesn't count parenthese as a token, so I wonder the way to count node, token ,etc. codetree of 23 nodes: 15 leaves/tokens + 8 interior nodes http://www.paulgraham.com/arcchallenge.html 19:32:19 the IO monad or a unique-typed IO object. 19:33:11 I am finding a way to compare the length of codes with languages. If we include parentheses, lisp code will be longer. 19:33:56 tomo - token-counting is a handwave. The really matters, even to the people counting the tokens, is what the code looks like. 19:34:02 ahh. right. 19:34:37 So don't worry about putting a facade of empiricism on your library. Just show better code. 19:34:44 everyone knows that you measure code-size by counting semi-colons. 19:36:29 ayrnieu: Thanks for your advice :) 19:36:47 does anybody else have the experience that when switching from a long bout of lisp to another language, they find themselves writing say, python, in sexps? 19:37:06 Fade: I've had that happen with javascript. 19:37:16 yeah. 19:37:40 Fade: me with python. automatically hit ( on evere funcall. made a emacs-chord to properly form that afterwards 19:38:27 I find python particularly egregious, because slime/paredit has become so intrinsic to my environment, that the sexp's are almost all only half formed. :P 19:38:31 does code with unicode (>127) function names count as longer? :) 19:38:51 Fade: why don't you use paredit with python? works pretty fine here 19:39:06 lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:39:35 well, then at least I'd have my python code in balanced sexps. ;) 19:39:43 antoni [n=user@66.pool85-53-5.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 19:39:55 which is easy to transform 19:40:34 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 19:40:42 i wonder if anything ever came of pylisp 19:41:06 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.158.114] has quit ["Induhvidual Quote: In the bottom of the line..."] 19:41:10 http://www.biostat.wisc.edu/~annis/creations/PyLisp/ 19:41:33 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-21-231.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 19:41:47 i also like http://common-lisp.net/project/clpython/ 19:42:20 Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.158.114] has joined #lisp 19:42:37 ah, nice. 19:42:59 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:43:16 if, eventually, pylisp implements _common_ lisp, they can be deployed one on top of each other in an infinite regression 19:43:18 saikat [n=saikat@adsl-76-254-61-64.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:21 Hun: have you actually run any signifigant code in clpython? 19:43:36 nope. only toyed around 19:45:40 -!- bhz- [n=matt@ip70-185-126-119.ga.at.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:46:17 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-137-0.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:46:19 bhz- [n=over@c-66-176-223-2.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:21 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-156-254.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:46:23 -!- the-ruediger is now known as ruediger 19:46:53 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:47:50 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 19:48:44 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:51:30 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:53:14 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:41 I was just helping someone who was having trouble loading an ASDF system on SBCL. His attempt to do so went sour because the pathnames he had in his *central-registry* had "~" in them. 19:53:41 -!- eslick [n=eslick@pool-71-184-179-158.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:54:16 Question: is there some appropriate place (SBCL pathname code, ASDF processing) to throw an error about this, or at least a warning, instead of leaving people like this to flail? 19:55:25 peddie [n=peddie@GUGGENHEIM-ONE-FORTY-NINE.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:56:51 *stassats* doesn't like idea of such warning 19:56:51 thoolihan [n=thooliha@32.149.73.34] has joined #lisp 19:57:33 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:57:43 everybody knows ~/ is just expanded by the shell and isn't actually a valid pathname. :) 19:58:17 I think Java will have the same issue 19:58:29 (and lots of other issues, because java classpaths are bizarre) 19:58:39 Next thing we know, they'll be wanting the system to complain when someone tries to enter a micros~1 short filename... 19:58:55 oh, had almost forgotten about those 19:59:23 BTW: is it possible to change the short name separately from the long name? 19:59:43 can I have micros~1.txt and wowthatsalongname.txt be the same file? 20:00:03 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-078-043-185-251.hsi4.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 20:00:05 foom: Yes, you can... but I don't know that it would stay that way for long. 20:00:07 foom: sounds probable 20:00:13 at least on FAT 20:00:19 but probably best avoided 20:00:31 sugarshark [n=ole@p4FDA9C18.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:00:41 (wasn't there a magical hidden file containing a mapping of the fake names to real names somewhere?) 20:00:42 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb42a5.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 20:00:45 why is it wrong to signal a warning on a known bad pathname, but not wrong if you are, e.g., adding a string to anumber? 20:00:49 on vfat, yeah 20:01:15 on ntfs I think it's the other way around? 20:01:16 rsynnott1: On FAT? It's actually encoded in the directory as a run of consecutive entries with some wacky attribute pattern. 20:01:32 In general, I think that helping programmers find bugs is a good thing. 20:01:43 rpg: Because ~ is actually a valid directory name. 20:01:49 (assuming, of course, it doesn't involve false alarms). 20:02:07 stathis_ [n=stathis@ppp16-146.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:02:13 rpg: At a shell, mkdir \~ 20:02:32 It's there, it's a ~, and you need to escape it in order to do anything with it. 20:02:42 nyef: OK. We are getting set up with an "asdf-fussy" library that tries to catch a lot of known bads, so we'll just stick it in there. thanks. 20:03:13 I'm willing to forbid my colleagues to make directories with "~" in their names ;-) 20:03:18 -!- dwave [n=ask@062249177064.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 20:03:31 Or just directories whose names start with #\~? 20:03:52 no, that's a baby that can go with the bathwater! 20:03:58 -!- thoolihan [n=thooliha@32.149.73.34] has quit ["Get Colloquy for iPhone! http://mobile.colloquy.info/"] 20:04:43 Okay, I'm looking at bug 309472 and... It turns out that TCO wasn't foiled in the least. 20:04:50 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-133.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:05:24 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 20:08:00 -!- antoni [n=user@66.pool85-53-5.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:08:49 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.152] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 20:11:25 weirdo [n=sthalik@c133-93.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 20:11:34 so clozure cl runs on win32, eh? 20:11:52 so there's no problem with delivering win32 apps anymore, now, is there? 20:11:56 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:12:27 does clozure compile down to an exe on win32? it works pretty well on ppc OSX 20:16:37 Fade: on macos it just generates one of those weird apple 'application' (a directory containing a set dir structure) things, so it might actually just be bundling a core and itself 20:16:51 -!- rsynnott1 is now known as rsynnott 20:17:30 *nod* 20:17:39 (all we need now is for apple to release the Win32 cocoa it no doubt has (it inherited a win32 nextstep thingy) and there are cross-platform UIs as well! 20:17:45 well, i've only used it a couple of times, but it works as advertised there. 20:17:59 -!- ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 20:18:32 rsynnott: have apply already released cocoa for linux? 20:18:42 stassats: there's the scary old gnustep thing 20:18:53 yep, ccl integrates very nicely with macos 20:19:17 i'm much happier with my mac since I setup ccl on it. 20:23:58 disumu [n=disumu@p57A27186.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:38 I think it was the first cl I used, actually 20:24:44 Hunh. Assembler routines have a code-component. Good to know, and possibly hackable. >:-) 20:27:35 ehird [n=ehird@eso-std.org] has joined #lisp 20:28:31 rsynnott dont count on apple releasing anything for windows 20:28:43 and i doubt cocoa is maintained for windows anyway 20:30:03 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 20:30:49 dont [n=dont@94.27.113.139] has joined #lisp 20:31:06 better off targetting qt almost certainly 20:32:15 Not that qt (being a C++ library) is easily (or safely, depending on the lisp implementation) targettable for lispers. 20:32:30 SMOP. :) 20:32:30 foom ccl has winapi ffi built in 20:32:38 ABCL through Java through Qtjambi 20:32:41 sohail was working on something for QT4 20:32:45 i dunno how far he got. 20:32:58 foom: Small matter of unwind interop, maybe. 20:33:00 I like the way you say `S', foom. 20:33:44 Fade, I got pretty far 20:33:47 so it should be possible to do everything using native apis for mac/windows 20:33:52 hey sohail :) 20:34:03 you should put up a project page 20:34:04 -!- sad0ur_ [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:34:06 the only remaining thing was to ifgure out how to inherit from Qt classes for stuff like the model/view architecture 20:34:08 I don't think qt actually uses exceptions 20:34:15 at least not much 20:34:31 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 20:34:49 foom, yeah they are scared of exceptions 20:34:52 I'm more thinking destructors for stack-allocated objects, but if it doesn't do those either... 20:35:13 Fade, I think the ecl qt was much better 20:35:41 as long as you don't unwind through qt frames you'll be all set. And I bet in practice you won't have much reason to do that. 20:35:49 I am not putting up a page since I don't use it for anything commercial yet 20:35:54 ISTR that is a restriction when using it from C++ too (don't throw through qt) 20:36:05 foom, yeah it is pretty straight-forward, you just have a single slot handler that traps everything 20:36:24 but when you get to overriding virtual functions... I gave up 20:36:29 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 20:36:30 foom: In practice? I'd expect that you'll do that an awful lot during debugging. 20:36:45 nyef: okay, during practice you might do it. In deployment probably not so much. :) 20:37:23 First thing I did when I got SBCL/Win32 stable: Built a window message function, created a window, threw in a message loop, started it running, and ended up in the debugger because I'd broken something in my window function. 20:37:53 Only option was to throw to the toplevel loop. And *boom*, I'd screwed up unwinding some alien frames and the lisp process went away. 20:38:04 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:38:05 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:38:19 -!- schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:38:58 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 20:39:17 well, it'd be nice to have a lisp intrface to QT on sbcl. 20:39:27 so I hope you eventually post the code. ;) 20:39:56 Fade: that would be awesome 20:40:01 I thought I did post the code 20:40:09 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:17 i saw an early version with a couple of tests. 20:40:19 it's garbage though 20:40:28 http://lisp-cffi-qt4.sourceforge.net/ 20:40:35 Project status: dead. :) 20:40:38 that's the better one but there is still too much c++ in there 20:40:50 foom: as usual with most cl libs :( 20:41:06 ruediger, fwiw, the original author of that code still uses it in a commercial project 20:41:35 The two problems I have with Qt are C++ and licensing. 20:41:45 Qt is now LGPL which is much better 20:41:46 The python bindings for qt are pretty nice. If I were going to write lisp bindings, I'd try to copy those. 20:41:55 sohail: for "soonish" values of "now" :) 20:42:06 foom, right :-) 20:42:10 sohail: Is that across the board, or are they still doing that "open-source vs. commercial development" distinction? 20:42:21 nyef, they are still doing the distinction 20:42:22 afaik 20:42:29 nokia just did a mass change to the licensing. 20:42:39 i think they're trying to make it ubiquitous. 20:42:40 They replaced GPL with LGPL as the default license for everything 20:42:50 you can still buy a commercial license if even LGPL is too strict for you 20:42:50 I hate Qt's model/view 20:42:56 it's friggin buggy but you can't reproduce any butgs 20:43:30 nyef: however you can use the lgpl stuff in commercial software without paying them 20:43:37 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has quit [] 20:46:23 much better would be a sane higher level interface to winapi 20:46:26 rsynnott: you can use the gpl stuff in commercial software, too :) 20:46:35 xristos: no 20:46:40 why not 20:46:45 xristos: graphic-forms or whatever it's called? 20:46:52 which win api? 20:46:53 because winapi sucks and won't run on most systems I use :) 20:46:55 there's like 5 of them 20:46:57 nyef i havent checked that one out 20:47:12 ruediger: wine works pretty well. :) 20:47:21 I'd almost be happy with a sane low-level interface to winapi. 20:47:25 foom: on powerpc? :p 20:47:28 ruediger i'm talking about win32 development 20:47:30 foom: Wine won't run SBCL/Win32. 20:47:39 if you want mac you use cocoa directly from ccl 20:47:44 ruediger: i think you can use qemu with wine on ppc 20:47:46 ruediger: Ah, for that I believe they crossed wine with qemu or something... 20:47:47 if you want linux, you deserve what you get 20:47:56 repnop: :D 20:48:05 not that'd you want to haha 20:48:17 you can compile against winelib on linux. :) 20:48:48 wine breakpoint exceptions are still, so far as I know, broken. 20:48:51 i mean now that ccl windows works pretty much ok with threads too 20:49:03 when we would life in a better world we had qt bindings for common lisp and gnu/emacs in common lisp. :) (of course in a perfect world we had only lisp :)) 20:49:07 new options are available for deployment 20:49:14 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:26 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-204-206.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:52:34 peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:28 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 20:55:07 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:57:19 eslick [n=eslick@dhcp-23-106.media.mit.edu] has joined #lisp 20:58:41 ruediger, if you want my opinion, the best way to use Qt through Lisp is Qt's meta object 21:00:13 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 21:01:40 -!- peter_12 [n=peter_12@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 21:02:12 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb42a5.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:03:41 are by default variables global? or do they belong to the current scope and for inner closures? 21:05:10 what do you exactly mean by variables? 21:05:29 guille_: It depends on what you use to establish their binding 21:06:06 i'm thinking in defvar (but because it's the only macro i know by now) 21:06:11 guille_: DEFVAR, DEFPARAMETER establishes global, dynamic bindings 21:06:29 LET establishes local, lexical bindings (by default) 21:07:06 ok thanks, i'll look for let 21:07:06 There are no global, lexical bindings, although they can be emulated 21:09:16 -!- peddie [n=peddie@GUGGENHEIM-ONE-FORTY-NINE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:09:59 offside [n=legi@c-66-229-119-91.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:16 xristos: win32api is AWFUL,though 21:10:25 -!- jacks- [n=legi@c-66-229-119-91.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:12:02 anttil [n=antti@a88-114-47-156.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 21:12:56 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:13:06 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:13:23 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 21:14:55 -!- anttil [n=antti@a88-114-47-156.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has left #lisp 21:15:22 -!- ehird is now known as ehird|away 21:16:27 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 21:21:26 -!- i-bot1 [n=i-bot@71.175.42.169] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:22:19 i-bot [n=i-bot@71.175.42.169] has joined #lisp 21:23:39 -!- rotty [n=rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:25:18 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.9] has joined #lisp 21:25:44 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-93-104-118-255.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 21:26:21 Reading a 2006 Lisp-1 vs Lisp-2 thread, deep down it becomes Ron Garrett vs Pitman. Pitman posts on the early CL decision-processes, and making the distinction between global, localized, and composable "language changes" are priceless. Quite educational to be buried this deep in a pi**ing match, a lot of wisdom and experience there. 21:27:19 rotty [n=rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has joined #lisp 21:28:59 rme_ [n=rme@pool-70-104-119-166.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:07 Modius: link/ 21:29:50 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 21:30:07 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 21:30:33 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_frm/thread/aac0e42c0859d15e/2da708a45729ede6#2da708a45729ede6 <-- This should put you on message 63, half way down the thread. You may want to go up or down for context; but this is where he really starts going for the good stuff IMHO 21:33:15 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #lisp 21:33:22 i remember that thread. epic. 21:34:45 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:35:54 thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 21:37:02 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:37:20 Tangent: From what I can gather from reading this, most people arguing with someone like this Kent Pitman, irrespective of the merits of their position, would be fighting out of their "weight" class. 21:38:35 -!- ehird|away is now known as ehird 21:39:44 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:51 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:33 -!- sugarshark [n=ole@p4FDA9C18.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:40:47 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:40:48 -!- _death [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:41:01 drewc: What's interesting about this thread to me is I'd read it before too - but back when I had a more limited understanding of the language and the issues. Last time it was gibberish to skim, now it is fairly profound. 21:41:06 My SBCL doesn't seem to have asdf-install... odd 21:41:21 (require :asdf-install) ? 21:41:30 Don't know how to REQUIRE ASDF-INSTALL. [Condition of type SB-INT:EXTENSION-FAILURE] 21:41:33 _death [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 21:41:40 ehird: I don't think SBCL ever shipped asdf-install. 21:41:50 * (require 'asdf-install) ;; works on SBCL, may require more work on other 21:41:54  http://www.cliki.net/ASDF-Install 21:42:36 ehird: did you (require :asdf) first? 21:42:41 yep 21:42:43 you should not need to 21:42:50 install problem, possibly? 21:42:55 sbcl has shipped asdf-install for approximately ever 21:42:57 Did I forget to enable a feature when compiling sbcl? 21:42:58 -!- offside is now known as jacks- 21:43:02 (Or something of that sort.) 21:43:07 (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :asdf-install) ? 21:43:09 most probably something failed a test or failed to build 21:43:21 ayrnieu: component "asdf-install" not found [Condition of type ASDF:MISSING-COMPONENT] 21:43:25 and then you installed it, and the installer didn't install the contribs whose test suite failed 21:43:32 [ehird:/usr/local/lib/sbcl/asdf-install] % ls 21:43:33 [stuff] 21:43:37 So, it is there... 21:43:45 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:13 WTF. It works with sbcl(1), just not in SLIME... 21:44:36 aha... 21:44:43 It's a problem with my SLIME core file 21:44:51 of which sort, I have no idea 21:45:29 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-222.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:45:47 antoni [n=user@193.pool85-53-10.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:46:22 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.198.192] has joined #lisp 21:46:51 -!- tcr1 [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 21:48:26 -!- thehcdreamer [n=thehcdre@62-101-93-169.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [] 21:49:04 -!- antoni [n=user@193.pool85-53-10.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:49:37 rme [n=rme@pool-70-106-132-172.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:49 -!- younder [i=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 21:50:15 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@173.15.15.30] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:52:37 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:53:14 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 21:54:44 mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 21:54:58 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 21:55:49 Indeed, it seems to happen whenever I use a custom core. 21:56:06 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 21:58:21 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:47 gray streams ftw! 21:59:00 i love it when you need something, and lisp already has it. 21:59:17 leo2007 [n=leo@smaug.linux.pwf.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 21:59:40 peddie [n=peddie@TEP-ONE-FIFTY-FIVE.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:01:47 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit ["leaving"] 22:04:02 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:05:51 mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 22:06:24 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-106-132-172.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:36 -!- rme_ [n=rme@pool-70-104-119-166.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:08:23 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:10:13 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@4.Red-81-37-167.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:11:28 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:13:57 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:20:26 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 22:21:07 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 22:21:43 -!- Aankhen`` [n=heysquid@122.162.158.114] has quit ["Error in Force.sys. (A)bort, (R)etry or (C)all Yoda?"] 22:21:50 matley [n=matley@83.225.112.217] has joined #lisp 22:23:04 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:23:08 *nyef* is confused. 22:23:14 I'm on an x86-64 SBCL. 22:23:20 I (defun foo () (bar)). 22:23:27 I (foo), and get the debugger. 22:23:35 undefined-function, etc. 22:24:03 I (sb-di::nth-interrupt-context 0) to get the actual error context. 22:24:26 I (sb-vm:context-pc *) to get the program counter. 22:24:31 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has quit ["GNU is *indeed* Not UNIX!"] 22:24:35 mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 22:24:52 Now, I'd expect said program counter to be either undefined_tramp or undefined_tramp + 1. 22:25:12 It's not. 22:25:57 It's alloc_tramp + #x1a, the instruction immediately after the call GNAME(alloc). 22:26:06 WTF? 22:26:08 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 22:26:28 (Seriously, WTF?) 22:28:31 huh. How do people use CLX with SBCL on OSX? sb-bsd-sockets doesn't like the named pipe that OSX sets for my DISPLAY 22:29:01 Did you try connecting to :0 instead? 22:29:23 *nyef* really doesn't know. 22:30:12 named pipe? 22:30:22 d'oh, that does work. I assumed that, if it was set to a named pipe, it must need to be. 22:30:24 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit ["...may the Source be with you..."] 22:30:26 so osx's x11 only handles 1 client? 22:30:35 weirdo: Like /tmp/.X11-unix/X0 22:30:52 that's more like a unix domain socket, not a named pipe 22:31:02 hunh. So it is. 22:31:15 I forget what the rules are for that sort of thing. 22:31:34 And OSX tends to break the rules anyway. 22:31:48 I was really surprised to discover that OSX's "cat" can open a named socket 22:32:04 when open fails, it tries socket/connect instead! 22:32:07 And, while I think of it, the world needs more Lisp emulators. 22:32:07 at least it provides some kind of x11 compatiblity :) 22:32:12 how unlike win32 22:32:23 -!- stathis_ [n=stathis@ppp16-146.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:32:24 Starting with Alpha, PPC, and MIPS emulators capable of running Linux. 22:32:51 I assume that behavior must be historic in bsd for some reason 22:32:56 but it seems like a really odd feature 22:34:03 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:34:55 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 22:35:31 foom, that's because osx uses freebsd userland 22:35:38 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:41 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:35:52 * Construct the unix domain socket address and attempt to connect 22:36:00 that's bin/cat/cat.c 22:36:30 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has quit ["GNU is *indeed* Not UNIX!"] 22:37:01 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.198.192] has quit [Client Quit] 22:38:09 yeah, like I said, it's a weird feature. :) 22:38:31 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:38:44 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-148-90.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:39:07 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host136-154-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 22:39:31 mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 22:39:49 Like: why not just make open() able to open unix domain sockets, then, instead of adding a special hack to cat. 22:40:52 unix is one big hack :) 22:40:57 too bad there's nothing better to use 22:42:37 weirdo: OpenGenera :) 22:43:16 well, if only it was ported to x86 and had an active maintainer :) 22:43:32 And didn't cost an arm & leg 22:43:33 As opposed to x86-64? 22:44:29 opengenera, pft. real men use real lisp machines. 22:45:34 anyone know the current status of opengenera? I know the holding company for Symbolics recently went through a transition 22:45:45 but I'm not sure what happened to the assets 22:45:49 isn't symbolics essentially a lifeless shell nowadays? 22:45:50 There was talk of open sourcing it 22:45:50 recently? 22:45:58 one or two years ago 22:46:10 I also heard rumors of an x86-64 port 22:46:11 ehird - that's what its website says (although not in words) 22:46:14 http://fare.tunes.org/LispM.html <-- well, a lisp machine could be bought in 2000 22:46:18 from symbolics 22:46:27 and I think it was in its current state then, too 22:46:45 Anyone tried this -> http://collison.ie/blog/2008/04/lisp-machines 22:47:21 tmh: Haven't tried it, but I've got the bits... 22:47:23 genera's nice but it's not exactly modern... 22:47:44 Cool, missed that 22:48:20 It's good to learn from though; and fun to play with from a historical standpoint 22:48:42 I used to have a 3600 terminal on my desk as an undergrad; didn't learn to use it though before it died 22:48:48 There's also CADR and TI Explorer emulators available. 22:48:53 eventually someone will invent a modern lisp machine, and a pony* *probably not 22:49:02 nyef: yeah, http://unlambda.com 22:49:09 make that http://www.unlambda.com/ 22:49:26 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-30-69.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:50:27 No point in inventing a lisp machine, unless you want it for embedded apps; but a modernization and better integration with an OS could be nice 22:50:29 ehird: Yes. I wrote nevermore, and accidentally killed E3 by writing a short scrap of code that did E3's job better than E3 did. 22:50:43 Awesome :) 22:51:13 hmm 22:51:18 is there a CONS emulator anywhere? 22:51:25 Clojure is an example of a healthy evolution of lisp; I always balk at creating a variant because there is already so much written in common lisp... 22:51:45 The CONS was a bit of a research prototype, wasn't it? I don't think I've heard of it actually being -used- for anything. 22:52:02 nyef: So, I'm running RHEL5.3 x86-64 XEN. What does that enable me to do with Opengenera? 22:52:04 nyef: I don't think anyone seriously uses lispms at all nowadays, so... :-) 22:52:11 comex [n=comex@teklinks.org] has joined #lisp 22:52:14 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.112.217] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:52:15 tmh: I have no idea. 22:52:24 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.9] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:52:26 ehird: I think there are still a handful of people/ 22:52:28 Well, at least 2 years ago there were still legacy apps in the military 22:52:29 nyef: I've been wanting to play around with genera to get an idea about the interface. 22:52:47 And some random commercial and academic work here and there 22:52:49 nyef: really? Wow. I thought it was all just hobbies and interest in arcana 22:53:02 Hmmm, now I'm going to waste lots of time trying to get OpenGenera running. Thanks #lisp! 22:53:07 But definitely a decaying curve and no new customers over the last 10 years 22:53:12 tmh: Last time I tried messing around with opengenera, I didn't have a 64-bit system. 22:53:12 tmh: beh, now I have to 22:53:18 i'll sue you for enabling copyright infringement! 22:53:41 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:54:19 during the Clinton administration the whitehouse.gov website ran on a symbolics lispm. 22:54:35 Fade: really? 22:54:43 yep 22:54:51 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:54:52 fap 22:54:59 I call shenanigans. Can you provide a reference? 22:55:08 yeah, I find that totally unlikely 22:55:12 but if it's true, that's awesome 22:55:33 http://fare.tunes.org/LispM.html 22:56:10 http://home.rbcarleton.com/rbc/symbolics/ 22:56:11 ehird: I can vouch for that too, I sat next to the devs in those days 22:56:11 <_death> http://www.cl-http.org:8001/cl-http/history.html 22:56:16 Fade: (The LispM that served www.pub.whitehouse.gov sadly disappeared in january 2001 when Prez Bush replaced Prez Clinton) 22:56:18 pub.whitehouse.gov 22:56:21 not whitehouse.gov 22:56:37 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has quit ["GNU is *indeed* Not UNIX!"] 22:56:47 It did some cool NLP (read and sorted incoming mail) 22:56:58 eslick: what lispm? 22:57:23 wow, opengenera is tiny 22:57:25 196MB 22:58:02 mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 22:58:12 i believe at the time, that was the public facing site. 22:58:34 Interesting. 22:58:50 Fade: nope 22:58:53 see web.archive.org 22:58:55 it was the publications section 22:59:10 whitehouse.gov at that time seemed static 22:59:45 at any rate, it's the only example I know of a lispm being used as a high profile webserver. 23:00:10 Hmm. That Genera torrent just took a big speed hit. Wonder if it's just me. 23:00:29 I just started it, your welcome. ;-) 23:01:13 haha you made it go 100 times slower damn you :-D 23:01:32 WTH, torrent S-U-X 23:01:45 it was at 600KB/sec a few minutes ago 23:01:47 :| 23:02:22 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-85-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:29 hm, you're meant to do it in a separate linux vm apaprently 23:03:23 I can't figure out if that is because he is running it on OS X + VMware + Linux, or if it really needs to be run in a VM. 23:03:29 tmh: see comments 23:03:31 it clobbers /etc/hosts 23:03:33 and some other stuff too 23:03:50 and you have to reset your time, iirc 23:03:54 haha 23:04:18 genera @ 88 mph 23:04:27 but we could start to collect money to buy the symbolics assets :) 23:04:42 mpeddie [n=matthew@PEDDIE.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:04:48 Alright, I have 2 partitions set aside for XEN domU's. I was planning on installing FreeBSD and Fedora, maybe I'll just install a Linux for running Genera. 23:04:51 i mean OpenGenera is sure interesting but Macsyma could sure be useful too to enhance Maxima 23:05:02 #lisp buying out symbolics? 23:05:11 that is both an excellent idea and probably totally impossible. 23:05:21 tcr1 [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 23:05:27 -!- peddie [n=peddie@TEP-ONE-FIFTY-FIVE.MIT.EDU] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:05:28 ehird: let's ignore the last part! :) 23:05:40 *ruediger* like's to dream :) 23:05:44 i offer £10 23:05:46 ruediger: What is different between DOE Macsyma and the Maxsyma on OpenGenera? 23:05:52 -!- Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:04 -!- mpeddie is now known as peddie 23:06:08 tmh: they separated pretty early 23:06:21 -separated +split 23:06:29 -!- tsuru [n=user@66.199.17.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:33 i wonder if symbolics actually has any lisp machines any more 23:06:36 or the facilities to produce them 23:06:43 ehird: I doubt it 23:07:15 ruediger: acknowledged, but there has been quite a bit of active development on Maxima(DOE Macsyma), I just wonder were it stands compared to the commercial version. 23:07:22 ruediger: not even one or two lying around? 23:07:32 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 23:07:47 I gather they have a few that they can sell people 23:08:00 ehird: I don't know but I guess since the assets changed hand several times they sold the hardware for scrap. 23:08:23 ruediger: a true shame if so 23:08:24 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has quit ["GNU is *indeed* Not UNIX!"] 23:08:32 tmh: yes Maxima has even replicated some Macsyma features 23:08:37 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [] 23:08:56 tmh: and some Maxima devs even said that they doubt the value of an opensource Macsyma to them 23:09:56 but afair Symbolics sold the rights to Macsyma to a company. So the Macsyma from Symbolics isn't probably the "best" Macsyma version around 23:10:17 ruediger: okay, I thought maybe you knew of something specific. Anyway, it never hurts to see other code. 23:10:35 -!- bhz- [n=over@c-66-176-223-2.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:11:07 the maintainer of the Tensor packages replicated some Macsyma functionality afair 23:11:07 prediction: symbolics will eventually cease all operations apart from keeping their domain alive for the "oldest domain ever" factor 23:13:09 mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:13:53 maybe somebody trusted in the lisp community could set up an account to collect money to buy symbolic assets. (i'm still dreaming :)) 23:14:28 ehird: are they actually making any money on anything at this point? 23:14:36 Adamant: I highly doubt it. 23:15:19 yeah, so unless they're going to fund something profit-making 23:15:23 time for it to go 23:15:37 matley [n=matley@83.225.112.217] has joined #lisp 23:19:24 symbolics had a hardware of old parts but they were for support. No one has made hardware in over a decade 23:19:44 Symbolics is, to my knowledge, no longer an active concern. The issue is the IP. That said my info is a few years old 23:20:31 the homepage lists at least two active guys 23:20:47 I think most of the IP value there is of historical interest, but not much else. 23:21:08 yeah 23:21:14 stathis_ [n=stathis@ppp16-146.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:21:16 Well, that home page hasn't changed in 5 years 23:21:23 Who knows what state it's actually in 23:21:29 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 23:21:34 (ditto on the IP) 23:22:10 My torrent is dead, which file are people using to download? 23:22:19 eslick: http://web.archive.org/web/*/http://www.symbolics.com 23:22:23 (this is the one for pulling down open general) 23:22:40 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:23:07 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 23:24:07 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:12 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:25:16 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [] 23:25:32 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:27:06 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:27:31 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless108.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:29:20 mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:30:21 Is anyone having success with the og.torrent? 23:30:22 runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 23:30:54 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-85-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:31:05 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:31:07 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-86-45.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:16 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 23:32:21 eslick: well, it was at 600kb 23:32:26 I dunno why it's suddenly 6kb. 23:32:33 I blame tmh 23:33:22 drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-136-225.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:34:00 darwin [n=peddie@TEP-ONE-FIFTY-FIVE.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:34:26 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:33 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:35:02 mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:35:09 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 23:35:36 -!- darwin [n=peddie@TEP-ONE-FIFTY-FIVE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 23:35:38 -!- evenson [n=evenson@213.47.71.36] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:35:44 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:16 whuwxl [n=whuwxl@2001:250:4001:10:0:5efe:de14:fa26] has joined #lisp 23:36:20 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:34 mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:37:20 rme_ [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-205.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:54 darwin [n=peddie@TEP-ONE-FIFTY-FIVE.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:38:56 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 23:39:09 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 23:39:17 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-86-45.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:39:22 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [Client Quit] 23:40:37 -!- darwin [n=peddie@TEP-ONE-FIFTY-FIVE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 23:49:46 mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:49:59 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 23:50:10 mjf [n=mjf@r6y225.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:50:52 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:54:58 darwin [n=peddie@TEP-ONE-FIFTY-FIVE.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:55:32 -!- darwin [n=peddie@TEP-ONE-FIFTY-FIVE.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:57:09 http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/3769989/Symbolics_Open_Genera_2.0_for_Alpha_-_complete_package_with_Lisp <-- look closely at the comment there ... it's actually from symbolics 23:57:20 posted 2007, advertising buying a lisp machine 23:57:26 so... maybe they _do_ still cell them 23:57:28 *sell 23:57:32 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:58:10 I bought a keyboard from Symbolics a few months ago. They had some MacIvory II systems and XL1200 systems to sell. 23:58:16 -!- sely [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:59:15 rme_: price range?