00:00:12 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has left #lisp 00:00:14 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:00:33 p_l: LLVM may just do that 00:01:03 Adamant: That's what I'm hoping for 00:01:31 will lisp benefit from it? 00:01:46 stassats: maybe 00:02:11 ghc for Haskell is trying to use LLVM as a possible backend, IIRC 00:02:25 Well, I already have LLVM running, sometime I might get ECL to compile to it 00:03:35 -!- g32k1 [n=g32k1@pptp-212-201-72-250.pptp.stw-bonn.de] has quit ["Saliendo"] 00:04:38 um, so what else is new? 00:04:54 though it might end weirder than normal if you change ECLs bytecode into LLVM bytecode... :P 00:05:17 manic12_: there's pcc 00:05:46 there's also kencc 00:06:06 but the last one is especially limited compared to GCC or LLVM 00:06:25 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:06:51 though NetBSD and OpenBSD switching to pcc is a nice thing ^_^ 00:07:10 those can be handful for envorinments where is no gcc by default 00:07:48 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 00:07:52 well, GCC isn't good at supporting multiple platforms, apparently 00:08:16 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:08:17 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:09:42 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-130-175.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:11:04 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 00:11:32 -!- jaoswald [n=user@user-12lcm4g.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:12:24 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:53 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:14:47 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A31E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:15:23 mns [n=user@c-76-119-251-7.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:52 -!- disumu 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00:37:28 fwiw, weblocks takes about 3 - 5 seconds on my server just to render a blank page 00:38:29 there is something in it that needs heavy refactoring/removal 00:39:05 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:39:32 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:39:48 it could be the inclusion on unminified prototype and scriptaculous 00:40:05 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:40:17 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 00:41:10 s/on/of/ 00:41:15 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Client Quit] 00:45:14 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:52 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 00:51:18 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:52:28 ayrnieu_ [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:43 -!- ayrnieu 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[n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:08 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-87-237.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:56:02 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:56:28 patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:24 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:59:45 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:59 mns pasted "potential dolist or format mis-use ? " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75097 05:00:27 Cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:01:08 anyone got suggestions or thoughts on the above pastebin ? 05:02:23 Beket [n=stathis@ppp183-63.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 05:03:08 mns: you probably want ~~ 05:03:26 or sometihng 05:03:29 something 05:03:43 anyways, it seems to be freaking out when you give it ~, and ~~ escapes it 05:04:16 sykopomp: but how do I give it the ~~ ? That is the value coming in from the environment. 05:05:02 (format nil "~a" "~a") 05:05:13 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:22 should give you an idea 05:05:39 mns: classic printf injection -alike. 05:08:36 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:08:49 ahhh .. yes that worked .. although I had to do (format t "~a = ~a" ) rather then (format nil ... ) 05:09:02 sykopomp and pkhuong: thanks. 05:09:09 mm 05:09:26 I got nothing when I used (format nil .... ) 05:11:13 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 05:11:16 because it doesn't print to *standard-output* 05:11:21 you seem to be working through the command line 05:11:23 no? 05:12:50 sykopomp: yes working on the cli 05:13:05 -!- beach```` is now known as beach 05:13:13 that's pretty terrible, my condolences. 05:13:24 Good morning. 05:13:55 morning beach 05:14:04 sykopomp: no need. I like the CLI. Besides I am trying to make use of LISP as a CGI scripting language. 05:14:24 -!- CoryDambach [n=Cory@11-143.207-68.elmore.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:14:34 hm 05:15:16 mns: Most people write it "Lisp" these days. "LISP" makes people think of LISP 1.5 from the 1960s. 05:15:47 perhaps we should promote M-expressions, too. 05:15:53 Duly noted. 05:15:57 as the bleeding-edge lisp syntax for the new age. 05:16:10 People never seem to say "Enthsiastically noted". 05:21:15 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:21:57 Happily noted. Does that work better Zhivago ? :) 05:22:40 Yes. 05:25:13 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-18.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 05:27:24 maybe because they're not enthusiastic, nor happy. 05:27:40 is there a way to make type-of return a type that isn't either a built-in, a struct, or a classname? 05:28:08 (like, can I make it return an arbitrary type by using some form of definition?). Deftype didn't seem to do this :-\ 05:30:02 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:33:18 semka [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 05:38:43 -!- ginkgo [n=user@chello084113198244.17.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:39:05 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:45:09 adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 05:51:00 -!- Cools [n=user@CPE000f661aca54-CM001692fae248.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 05:52:23 me-so-stupid_ [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 05:52:43 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:55:18 -!- semka [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:03:15 X-Scale2 [i=email@89.181.87.218] has joined #lisp 06:07:08 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 06:08:48 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 06:09:08 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 06:11:28 -!- johnzorn [n=jz@69-196-134-225.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:11:37 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@XPLR-TS-10-VAN-67-201-133-74.barrettxplore.com] has joined #lisp 06:17:03 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:18:04 -!- ignas_ [n=ignas@static-68-239-80-47.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 06:20:57 if I have a lisp file with just top-level, script-style code (stuff I would type in the REPL) how would I "run" that file in the SLIME REPL? 06:21:20 do I byte compile and load? 06:21:37 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89-180-76-121.net.novis.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:21:39 just load it 06:21:48 Eleanore [n=a@c213-100-35-225.swipnet.se] has joined #lisp 06:24:25 peddie [n=peddie@18.224.1.200] has joined #lisp 06:25:47 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 06:27:23 or M-x slime-eval-buffer 06:27:56 HG` [n=wells@118.82.169.165] has joined #lisp 06:29:00 thanks 06:31:28 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["leaving"] 06:31:40 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 06:32:12 -!- X-Scale2 is now known as X-Scale 06:32:50 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.28] has joined #lisp 06:35:10 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Client Quit] 06:35:22 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 06:39:45 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Client Quit] 06:39:58 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 06:41:38 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Client Quit] 06:41:50 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 06:42:04 mooglenorph: hey. 06:42:35 sykopomp: 06:42:44 sykopomp: wow, I forgot to type my message... 06:42:50 Shows you how awake I am. 06:42:54 mooglenorph: are you planning on going to ILC09? 06:43:11 hello, fellow hampshire lisper 06:43:12 s 06:43:22 sykopomp: no idea. I forgot when it is. Probably not, because I think it costs money and I am broke as hell. 06:43:27 ianmcorvidae: hey. Do I know you IRL? 06:43:30 March 22-25 06:43:35 I had a class with you last semester. 06:43:40 mooglenorph: it's hella cheap for students now. $75 06:43:40 name: Ian McEwen 06:43:52 ianmcorvidae: are you a deathfest DM? 06:43:53 as opposed to $arm-and-leg 06:44:03 wow. I can... actually afford then. 06:44:09 I also have some two-step connections with you, through Margaret McGrew and her boyfriend, and through sykopomp here 06:44:15 nope, not a deathfest DM 06:44:23 ianmcorvidae: hey, you know margaret and stephen too? 06:44:28 yep. 06:44:37 small world. If I didn't know better, I'd guess we'd gone to the same school or something. 06:44:38 (slowly, lisp takes over the hampshire campus) 06:44:43 lol yep 06:45:17 there are three others on campus who are working with me on a sort of collaborative-learning thing with CL, as well 06:45:35 we're all at very different levels, but yeah 06:45:35 ianmcorvidae: really? that's pretty cool. is there a website attatched? 06:45:49 for our thing? nah, it's just an informal thing 06:45:55 What's the level distribution/objectives of the collaborative learning thing? 06:46:16 ianmcorvidae: I'm bored. Can I help? 06:46:31 well, two of the people haven't used lisp at all before; the other two of us are somewhat more experienced but have not much practical experience 06:46:34 like, can I show up and tell you guys how you're all newbies to make myself feel a bit more adequate? :) 06:46:44 ianmcorvidae: I'm *horribly overworked* and shouldn't be on IRC right now, but I'd really like to hear what you do and how cool it is. 06:46:53 I seem to have the most knowledge of CL, although not by much 06:47:11 mooglenorph: can you make a decision about whether you're going to ILC and commit to it at some point, so we can make hotel arrangements and the like? 06:47:13 well, the coolest thing I'm doing right now is an independent study with Lee Spector doing Statistical Natural Language Processing using Common Lisp 06:47:18 ianmcorvidae: the crashing thing fell through 06:47:25 aww, darn 06:47:38 ianmcorvidae: that's pretty fantasticallu cool. you want a bunch of code for that? 06:47:46 hmm? 06:47:48 ianmcorvidae: are you using a particular text? 06:47:52 ianmcorvidae: that's what marco does :P 06:47:56 well, I was planning on *writing* a bunch of code 06:47:57 ah 06:47:57 or so I gather. 06:48:20 well, I'm using Christopher Manning & Hinrich Schuetze's "Foundations of Statistical Natural Language Processing" 06:48:29 Also I have a bunch of research papers and physical books which you would most likely find really helpful. 06:48:35 and as Lisp reference PCL and ANSI Common Lisp, but that's not as important 06:48:39 ooh, hmm 06:48:40 That is probably my favorite text. 06:48:48 yeah! It's pretty awesome. 06:49:01 How much do you know about stats? 06:49:06 I haven't gotten too far through it yet (another case of being too busy, really, to be sitting on IRC, but that's a moot point) 06:49:09 very little 06:49:10 unfortunately 06:49:28 I'm expecting this will force me to learn a good amount in that area as well, heh 06:49:38 stats is fasntastic. 06:49:56 Right now, I should be proving things about the normal distribution. But I'm not, because I suck horribly. 06:50:05 lol 06:50:46 I have nothing to do besides code :( 06:50:54 The take-away thing is, if you need to have some drastically useful stats resources/papers and some example code (I implemented markov chain monte carlo in lisp, for one) 06:51:04 you should ask me. 06:51:29 but yeah; I don't know how much additional material I can honestly fit into the independent study (I'm already, supposedly, trying to get through all of that text), but more material is typically a good thing 06:51:34 heh 06:51:59 I shall --- I'll wait until I know what that is, first, but I will ask you once I do know (heh) 06:52:04 If my own experience is anything to judge by, you will get a lot more out of the text by making sure that you really get a handle on the stats as you go along. 06:52:13 And not worry so much about getting through all of it. 06:52:26 yeah, that's basically the plan; I was mostly planning to just try to implement every algorithm in there 06:52:29 more code 06:52:31 less reading 06:52:33 yeah 06:52:36 always better 06:52:44 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 06:52:56 anyway... that's really encouraging. 06:53:13 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.28] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:53:17 There need to be more hampshire-localized resources for cool computer science things than happenspance encounters on #lisp 06:53:24 there do 06:53:31 hacktivism and glug should be the student groups for those things 06:53:38 we should set up a hampedia page or something. 06:53:39 hopefully they will get there this semester 06:53:43 for lisp? 06:53:48 glug seems a bit... crazy 06:53:49 that would be a good idea... hmm 06:53:53 Yeah 06:53:54 well, niko's going to be in iceland 06:54:03 lisp at hampshire should totally be a hampedia page. 06:54:10 but I am going to do that *later* 06:54:16 so more sane/reliable/less-druggie people are going to be running GLUG 06:54:24 right now I am going to go work on statistics 06:54:26 hahahaha 06:54:37 always a good thing. 06:54:40 I may start a page --- as though I need anything more to help me procrastinate but whatever 06:54:58 anyway... good luck. enjoy your lisping. 06:55:12 likewise! We should collaborate... uh, sometime in the future 06:55:33 and you should try to come to ILC; it's probably not going to cost me more than $150 for the whole thing if I can get accomodations cheap enough 06:55:53 Yeah... I will totally think about that after I finish this round of evil 06:55:59 hah 06:56:00 if we split a room we can probably get hella cheap. 06:56:02 just to note 06:56:03 (I am in part two of the grad-level sequence on mathematical statistics) 06:56:07 mooglenorph: get your work done. Good luck. 06:56:14 yes, work 06:56:15 sykopomp: you too :-) 06:56:19 'bye all 06:56:20 what work? 06:56:21 *sykopomp* cries 06:56:24 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["leaving"] 06:56:29 heh 06:56:36 I should probably be working too 06:56:44 I did about four hours of lisp coding today already, though 06:56:45 kay 06:56:52 oh? statistics stuff? 06:56:53 so I may just hang out in IRC 06:56:54 nah 06:56:58 I was implementing polynomial division 06:57:07 it's at least related to one of my other classes 06:57:16 ah 06:57:25 and a good small project to whet my appetite for getting really into the stats 06:58:05 also, depending on where I am with the NLP by the time of ILC, I may try to do a lightning talk on it 06:58:08 because that would be cool 06:58:12 I've been working for the past few hours on bootstrapping sheeple onto sheeple so I can write OOP while I OOP (yo dawg) 06:58:19 haha 06:58:37 how complete is sheeple, anyway? 06:59:09 the initial implementation is pretty much usable, which is why I'm taking a step back and bootstrapping it -- so I can start adding the rest of the features using sheeple itself. 06:59:20 ah 06:59:52 ianmcorvidae: http://github.com/sykopomp/sheeple/blob/1df5813764923d345f4f0dd99351d5d8ef4e9df2/demo/classes.lisp 07:00:21 That should give you a pretty good idea of part of it. The last few details are mostly advanced options, although :cloneform would be extremely welcome :) 07:01:30 -!- Eleanore [n=a@c213-100-35-225.swipnet.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:03:04 hmm, interesting 07:03:19 that's designed to be a usage of sheeple similar to CLOS? 07:03:27 yeah. 07:04:03 it's taken straight from the two CLOS chapters in PCL. 07:04:11 yeah, I noticed 07:04:11 lol 07:04:46 I was also reading through the binary and id3 parsers in PCL, and I think i could probably take advantage of the way sheeple does things in those two examples. 07:05:07 so once I'm done with this, I might try and write those before moving on to actually -using- it :P 07:05:16 -!- HG` [n=wells@118.82.169.165] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:05:46 well, you could do worse than reimplementing PCL's examples 07:06:02 they're certainly well-known within the CL community, so they're a reasonable departure point 07:07:00 I thought Sheeple might be an acceptable superset of CLOS, hence why I'm trying to write things in the CLOS style with it :P 07:07:10 yeah, heh 07:07:33 you should at some point probably do some examples of "oh wait here's how it can be completely different" as well 07:07:34 (of course, it's not, and it probably won't be. At least not a complete superset) 07:07:44 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:08:08 I'll do that, yeah, but prototype-based OOP is sort of this weird nebulous thing in my mind. It seems cool, and really interesting... but it's very unfamiliar. 07:08:14 fair 07:08:59 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:10:04 ianmcorvidae: by the way, I just have to share. This function makes me giggle. http://paste.lisp.org/display/75101 07:10:43 sheep, sheep, and more sheep 07:10:58 and moreover meta-sheep :P 07:11:18 I don't actually think that will work. 07:11:21 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:11:23 but it seems like it's worth a shot. 07:11:33 lol, why not 07:12:03 actually, that probably won't work. 07:12:26 meh. I'll try anyways. I need to be bootstrapped before I can try though. 07:12:37 ianmcorvidae: I have no idea what the body of that message should be :P 07:12:57 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 07:22:26 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp183-63.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:23:14 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:23:33 Beket [n=stathis@ppp183-63.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 07:24:20 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 07:27:29 -!- ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28:33 Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has joined #lisp 07:28:40 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 07:28:42 ilitirit_ [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 07:28:49 -!- ilitirit_ [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 07:30:07 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.138.149] has joined #lisp 07:30:49 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:31:42 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.138.149] has quit [Client Quit] 07:33:53 elurin` [n=user@88.254.105.194] has joined #lisp 07:34:34 -!- Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:45:03 mvilleneuve [n=matthieu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:12 good morning 07:47:02 evenin' 07:48:13 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 07:48:54 hello 07:50:36 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:50:52 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.158.12] has joined #lisp 07:52:12 mornfall_ [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 07:52:15 sad0ur_ [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 07:52:53 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:52:58 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:56:54 vanLiempt 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09:55:10 nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 09:55:33 trebor_dki pasted "how to avoid inline-check?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/75105 09:55:50 -!- CoryDambach [n=Cory@11-143.207-68.elmore.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:56:18 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:56:33 'hello 09:58:01 i would like to avoid some inline-argument-range check in http://paste.lisp.org/display/75105. how do i have to declare 'angle to avoid warnings in (sin angle)? 10:00:47 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:01:17 -!- schme [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 10:01:29 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 10:05:15 binarin [n=user@62.105.145.214] has joined #lisp 10:07:09 trebor_dki: does angle have a smallish range? 10:07:47 mega1: 0...2pi 10:08:39 declare it 10:09:05 i did (declare (double-float angle)) or what do you mean? 10:09:18 (declare (type (double-float 0d0 8d0) angle)) 10:09:26 something like that 10:09:38 ah. thanks - i will try. 10:09:58 anyway, I think the deftransform could refrain from complaining unless speed is high enough 10:10:21 and it could use the proper bounds check: 2^63 instead of 2&64 ... 10:10:33 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@131.173.202.55] has joined #lisp 10:11:09 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:11:21 <_death> why all the silly coercion? 10:11:22 sorry - what do you mean by deftransform? 10:11:42 schme [n=schme@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:11:55 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 10:12:01 _death: mul-vec-scal wants single-float 10:12:16 the thingy in sbcl bowels that gives you that note 10:13:04 <_death> trebor: if you defconstant a `single-float-pi' and use that, you don't need any explicit coercion 10:13:19 _death: ok, thanks. 10:14:52 mega1: thanks, that works perfectly 10:20:36 loz- [n=loz@211.26.185.90] has joined #lisp 10:21:03 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:23:14 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@dhcp-196-121.nomad.chalmers.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:24:25 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:25:54 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:26:08 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:29:26 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 10:29:57 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 10:31:25 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:34:13 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.138.149] has joined #lisp 10:37:42 mega1` [n=mega@3e70d20c.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:37:45 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70d20c.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:43:19 ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has joined #lisp 10:45:40 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:14 re 10:47:03 (sin (expt 2d0 65)) => 0.0d0 10:47:20 bah, this is broken 10:58:40 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 11:03:28 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C9F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:03 mega1`: What strange lisp are you on to get that result? 11:05:44 <_death> sbcl gives that 11:06:08 No it doesn't. 11:06:36 (sin (expt 2d0 65)) => -0.047183876212354675d0 11:06:45 <_death> what version? 11:06:57 1.0.24 11:07:14 <_death> well 1.0.25.7 on x86 gives that 11:07:21 ok. 11:07:26 I'll update and try again. 11:07:40 Or maybe it broke between 24.46 and 25.7 ;) 11:07:54 sbcl 1.0.14 gives me 0.0d0 too 11:08:07 so maybe it's just system dependant 11:08:18 Maybe. 11:09:52 nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 11:10:01 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:13:59 <_death> interesting. sbcl's toplevel can take multiple expressions, which it then evaluates, and prints the values returned by the last, if any 11:14:15 <_death> the value of the variable `+' is supposed to be the last expression evaluated 11:14:58 <_death> but if I give the toplevel "'foo +" it will not print 'foo, but the prior expression 11:15:33 1.0.25.10 gives me also -0.047... :) 11:15:49 I wish the sbcl building process got speed up a bit ;) 11:15:58 _death: That's funny. 11:16:06 <_death> clisp, for example, does the expected thing and prints 'foo 11:16:52 _death: Hmm.. Me doing 3 + => 3 11:17:28 -!- mega1` [n=mega@3e70d20c.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 11:17:30 Also 'foo + => 'foo 11:17:31 <_death> are you sure that 3 is not the expression evaluated prior to _that_ 3? 11:17:35 Yes. 11:17:40 2 => 2 11:17:43 <_death> hmmm 11:17:43 3 + => 3 11:17:55 2 => 2 11:18:10 'foo + => 'FOO 11:18:10 <_death> ah, likely it's slime's repl 11:18:22 Oh not trying it with slime here. 11:18:32 That's a bit bad. Nice work with spotting it :) 11:20:10 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-16-242.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:20:15 anyone is working with emacs 23? I'm getting a white background in any term emulation 11:21:19 nurv101: Maybe you have selected white background colour? Anyway terminals should have white background ;) Also maybe #emacs is good :) 11:23:44 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 11:24:39 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:24:43 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:27:35 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 11:28:13 -!- patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:31:15 Eleanore [n=a@130-229-10-155-dhcp.wlan.ki.se] has joined #lisp 11:35:35 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:37:36 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-45-39.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:38:51 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:39:46 schme: Light on dark colour schemes are better for your eyes. :-) 11:39:53 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:40:21 nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 11:40:57 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:41:51 -!- poet [n=chatzill@64.198.227.140] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:46:19 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@131.173.202.55] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:49:45 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:52:51 a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has joined #lisp 11:55:17 mega1` [n=mega@3e70d20c.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:56:11 -!- elurin``` is now known as elurin 11:56:34 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:42 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.236.133] has joined #lisp 12:01:23 LostMonarch [n=roby@host207-200-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:03:29 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:03:58 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:04:36 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:05:39 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-21-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:06:32 Aankhen``: That could be so, but it looks like shit and makes reading hard :) 12:06:45 -!- cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:07:00 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:02 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-20-99.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:14 cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has joined #lisp 12:07:14 Buuut not that it all matters. 12:07:34 Er, actually, they're better for your eyes *because* they make reading easier. 12:09:16 That's strange. I have a much harder time reading white on black than black no white. 12:09:43 Also makes me wonder why most webpages (google etc) and books indeed are black on white ;) 12:09:46 Opposite for me. With black on white the glare makes it much harder to read (again, for me). 12:10:14 Because what's most widely used usually isn't what's "correct". :-) 12:10:18 Hmm... You could be right though. I seem to remember reading something about it. Also it was maybe black on yellow that was best. 12:10:25 I guess I'm broken :( 12:10:48 But! Atleast default McCLIM is white bg, so it's all good ;) 12:10:52 Heh. 12:11:03 -!- loz- [n=loz@211.26.185.90] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:14:13 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 12:14:46 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:19:07 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-37.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:22:51 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:26:18 -!- segv_ is now known as segv 12:26:18 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:28:00 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-227-67.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:34 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-134-134.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 12:32:01 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-159-249.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Operation timed out] 12:33:50 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-159-249.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:41:27 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:43:52 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:53 stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:41 beach`, moo! 12:46:46 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:46:51 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:47:30 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:48:17 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 12:48:53 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:50:09 jollygood_ [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:55:50 -!- addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 12:56:04 addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 12:58:12 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:01:53 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.134] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:02:56 -!- Pegazus [n=awefawe@host100.190-137-19.telecom.net.ar] has left #lisp 13:03:42 agz [n=mate@225-36.adsl.etel.hu] has joined #lisp 13:04:45 hi! I cannot use distinct in clsql -> (clsql:select :distinct [stadium] :from [rdata]) 13:04:55 hi! I cannot use distinct in clsql -> (clsql:select : distinct [stadium] :from [rdata]) 13:05:46 pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167211246.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 13:06:09 tried many variations like: (clsql:select [stadium] : distinct [stadium] :from [rdata]) 13:06:20 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:06:39 get error: SQL logic error with expression "SELECT DISTINCT ON STADIUM STADIUM FROM RDATA": 13:07:10 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 13:07:11 anyone similar issue with clsql? 13:11:40 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:13:54 -!- pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167211246.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [] 13:15:49 <_death> what about (select [stadium] :from [rdata] :distinct t) 13:16:20 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:19:03 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [] 13:22:26 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:19 is it possible to use declarations within a loop? 13:28:02 gzip4 [n=xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 13:28:05 trebor_dki: You mean type declarations? 13:28:13 <_death> maybe you want of-type 13:28:13 vy: yes. 13:28:33 trebor_dki: As _death pointed out, there are OF-TYPE keywords. 13:28:38 eno___ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-149-76.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:53 _death: ok, re-looking at documentation. thanks (i was searching for "decl*"... 13:30:16 thanks. 13:32:45 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:32:50 nathanael [n=nathanae@vpn508-075.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:33:19 -!- nathanael [n=nathanae@vpn508-075.rzuser.uni-heidelberg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:33:27 schmx [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 13:34:47 -!- mornfall_ is now known as mornfall 13:37:14 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279632916.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 13:37:37 -!- beach` is now known as beach 13:37:38 koffein [n=aik@dtmd-4db24d6f.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 13:37:38 Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:37:56 Good afternoon. 13:41:33 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:55 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A327.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:31 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:45:46 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:47:15 hello beach 13:48:14 pokey19 [n=dmg@DEC3C.VPN.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 13:49:09 -!- schme [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:49:36 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:54:15 -!- agz [n=mate@225-36.adsl.etel.hu] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:54:49 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D76F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:54:52 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:54:54 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:55:07 mvilleneuve: what's up? 13:55:17 segv [n=mb@p4FC1F897.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:31 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit ["Be back later"] 13:58:49 nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 14:02:26 Trying to match two octet vectors, u and v, where (length u) >> (length v). If matching fails because of item at index `k' (of vector u), is there any corner case where it would be a wrong decision to move `k' steps forward in vector u and continue trying to match again? 14:02:35 why would a dlopen() work from a normal c program, but not from sbcl? 14:02:41 the error i get is just "dlopen() filed" 14:02:46 i'm on sbcl macosx and loading a dylib 14:03:04 nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-223-182-13.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:15 G'morning all. 14:03:53 Nevermind. It surely is a bad idea: Consider (match "aaab" "aab"). 14:04:01 manuel_: could the library be already opened through another dlopen ? 14:04:18 hmm, good idea, let me cycle 14:04:52 hello nyef 14:04:55 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 14:07:11 nope, that wasn't it 14:08:32 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 14:08:47 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:00 -!- Eleanore [n=a@130-229-10-155-dhcp.wlan.ki.se] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:11:29 Oh, joy. HP-UX has a different unwind system. 14:11:57 (And GCC doesn't play nice with it, for more fun.) 14:12:34 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:15:06 dwave [n=ask@084202074200.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 14:16:01 ... Or maybe it does. The manuals are confusing. 14:16:50 Ah. Use of alloca or variable-sized arrays... That's no good, it'd break stack-allocation. 14:17:35 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:19:38 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 14:21:42 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-159-249.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:22:04 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 14:22:23 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.17] has joined #lisp 14:24:19 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-159-249.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:25:21 antoni [n=antoni@47.pool85-53-28.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 14:26:58 beach, less busy this week? 14:28:51 schmx: x86 SBCL uses the x87 transcendental instructions directly. However, it doesn't do range reduction like other libraries when the input exceeds the range of the instructions, and instead returns 0. 14:31:18 the vops used to do range reduction ages ago but that was deemed "hopelessly inaccurate" 14:32:34 We should do that, if only because that's what intel recommends. Might as well port them to x86-64 too, since that's likely what libm does everywhere. 14:33:58 maybe we could measure how much faster the resulting vops are than calling an alien ... 14:34:56 ... Doesn't the Win32 port have a couple lisp functions to do badly what is handled via libm on other platforms? 14:35:23 c|mell [n=cmell@EM114-48-44-79.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:35:50 tic: At least it feels that way. Do you need for me to do anything for you? 14:37:24 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:04 blowery [n=blowery@cpe-72-228-38-92.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:38:13 pkhuong: what should x86-64 be using, SSE intrinsics? 14:38:29 sse doesn't have them 14:39:21 and the transcendental fncns only apply to x87 i suppose 14:39:56 Is x87 supported at all in x86-64 mode? 14:40:59 i know with the intel c++ compiler you can use /Qlong-double for extended precision under x64 target 14:41:00 nyef: I think it's only for acos, cosh, acosh, ... 14:41:04 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 14:41:44 anyway it's here: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/327192 14:42:15 manic12_: Doesn't it simply uses 128bit SSE ops? 14:42:32 i don't know 14:43:02 x87 80bit precision was quite ... unique AFAIK 14:43:47 the intel manuals confuse me because x86 and x86-64 are covered in separate paragraphs in the same sections instead of separate manuals 14:45:27 personally, I think the significand size of the float on a machine should be the same as size_t 14:48:32 mb_82 [n=memet@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:52 hello all. Anyone with experience with AllegroServe and/or Weblocks? 14:50:17 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.17] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:51:36 ... _Unwind_ForcedUnwind() is evil, and looks like it's specified to break even EXIT-EXTENT:MINIMAL. 14:52:03 Beyond that, however, I think I might be able to make the rest of this not suck horribly. 14:53:03 relevant song -> http://g.imagehost.org/download/0051/Code_Monkey 14:53:13 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:53:49 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 14:54:23 -!- echo-area [n=user@119.42.238.68] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:55:54 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:32 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:59:52 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:01:10 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:01:38 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-68-82-30-242.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:02:22 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:02:37 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:02:59 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 15:04:23 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-68-82-30-242.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:04:30 beach, oh, not at all. 15:07:24 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-139-240.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:07:36 Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:07:39 beach, how much is required for a clim curses backend, anyway? 15:09:46 eugh, why curses? 15:09:51 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:09:58 terminal. 15:11:37 Is there a easy way to access to a element in nested lists? http://paste.lisp.org/display/75119 15:12:28 milanj [n=milan@77.46.248.228] has joined #lisp 15:13:17 <_death> yes, (nested-elt ze-list 1 1 1) 15:13:30 "Now just defined NESTED-ELT." 15:13:58 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 15:14:06 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:14:06 <_death> exactly.. btw the 3/4 one is not a list 15:14:08 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:14:14 <_death> (not a proper list, at least) 15:14:23 Right, it's an improper list. 15:14:40 <_death> I guess you could use pattern matching for that stuff, too 15:14:44 clhs AREF 15:14:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_aref.htm 15:14:50 tomoyuki ^ 15:15:20 Cheshire: Wouldn't work for lists, which is the actual given use-case. 15:15:22 <_death> which suggests destructuring-bind for simple cases 15:15:25 -!- nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:18:35 -!- pokey19 [n=dmg@DEC3C.VPN.Dal.Ca] has quit [] 15:19:02 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:19:19 syamajal_ [n=syamajal@140.232.177.152] has joined #lisp 15:19:42 -!- mb_82 [n=memet@204-225-123-132.xdsl.convoke.net] has quit [] 15:19:43 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.152] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:20:14 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:20:30 nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:02 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-68-82-30-242.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:09 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [] 15:22:14 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@network-65-167-67-54.doubleclick.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:09 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:30 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:26:35 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:29:17 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C9F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["I am Locutus of Borg! You will assist us!"] 15:29:33 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C9F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:35 sorry for the delay response, I was doing something. 15:30:49 _death: It seems like nested-elt is undefined for me. 15:31:42 Cheshire: thanks! I can use aref for a list. 15:31:49 can you? 15:32:00 I thought it only worked on arrays 15:32:12 Cheshire: oh , sorry, for arrays. my bad. 15:32:18 (aref (make-array ... :initial-contents list) ...) 15:32:38 but anyway, your PHP code used arrays 15:32:50 yeah 15:33:52 Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has joined #lisp 15:34:44 In php, this works. $x = array("1" => array("1" => array("1" => "yes!"))); print $x["1"]["1"]["1"]; 15:34:49 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:35:20 So there is not such function to access a nested cons list like this? (list (cons "1" (list (cons "2" (list (cons "3" "4")))))) 15:35:42 tomoyuki28jp, No 15:35:58 Cheshire: thanks for your answer. 15:36:06 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:36:11 Maybe I can consider to use another data structure. 15:36:16 tomoyuki28jp, I think it's more usual to use literal numbers and symbols than strings too btw 15:36:54 Cheshire: I see. 15:38:13 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:38:53 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:39:22 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 15:39:23 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202074200.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:39:43 -!- sysfault [n=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:43:01 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-139-240.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:43:16 mega1`: I failed on the range reduction, but using fsin ourselves saves ~16% time. I don't have the latest alien call patch, though. 15:48:21 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@87.236.135.147] has quit [] 15:48:43 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:49:45 pkhuong: then it's quite possible that it's almost the same speedwise 15:51:39 Is there a way to unbind a symbol macro (i.e., undo the effects of a define-symbol-macro)? 15:51:44 LiamH: no. 15:52:36 This seems to work though: make a special of the same name (as with defvar), and then makunbound that symbol. 15:53:13 -!- syamajal_ [n=syamajal@140.232.177.152] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:54:20 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 15:54:38 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:54:49 Is it possible to specialize on the type of a member of a class ? 15:55:03 eevar2 [n=jalla@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:34 auclairb: Not directly. 15:55:39 Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:55:48 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 15:56:09 -!- H4ns [n=hans@miles.agharta.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:56:15 nyef: Where can I learn more about the indirect method :) 15:56:40 Quadrescence: Code Monkey song? (ideal for coding in Java, IMO) 15:57:08 Beket [n=stathis@ppp183-63.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:57:09 p_l: It is. As such, we can all feel good that lisp does not make us code monkeys. 15:57:14 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:57:57 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-20-99.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:58:20 you are both in deep denial 15:58:38 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-223.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:50 LiamH: doesn't unintern work? 15:58:58 dlowe: You mean about being a Code Monkey? 15:59:14 p_l: yep 15:59:32 well, about not being a code monkey 15:59:33 stassats`: I hadn't thought to try that. 15:59:55 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-241-208.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:00:05 dlowe: I admit I am kind of Code Monkey, at least when it comes to jobs I do. (I define a situation where I get to choose what tools are most comfortable for the job and how to do it as _not_ being a Code Monkey) 16:00:48 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:07 iceyu [n=icey@97-124-34-208.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:01:25 -!- iceyu [n=icey@97-124-34-208.phnx.qwest.net] has left #lisp 16:01:25 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:46 morning 16:02:19 dihymo_ [n=dihymo@97-124-34-208.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:24 jajcloz [n=jaj@c-24-62-40-124.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:34 -!- dihymo_ [n=dihymo@97-124-34-208.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:03:06 yes, it is morning here too 16:03:28 it's like ntp time synchronisation, but cruder 16:03:39 :) 16:03:44 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-34-208.phnx.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:03:56 dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-34-208.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:24 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:04:34 god bless the americas, where it's now morning 16:04:47 it is afternoon here 16:04:53 and about to start getting dark :( 16:04:58 *rsynnott* hates winter 16:05:16 scandinavia? 16:05:22 Ireland 16:05:46 (similar, but lower taxes and no snow) 16:06:02 actually, there's no snow here either. :/ 16:06:35 we had a heat wave, it got to 50F the other day 16:07:15 better than the january cold snap where everyone's pipes burst 16:07:32 manic12_: insulate your pipes better :) 16:07:38 (though actually we had a bit of snow last week. First time there wasa serious snow since 1996) 16:07:44 -!- a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:07:45 our pipes survived 16:07:52 just barely 16:08:38 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [No route to host] 16:08:51 *p_l* had the whole building seriously insulated to the point you could keep it warm in -30 with a single fireplace (FSV of "warm") 16:10:19 *tic* defines warm as ciep?o ;) 16:10:28 easy is "warm" is -30 :) 16:11:06 tic: I defined it as more than ~10°C :) 16:11:26 FSV, indeed... 16:12:01 tic: When you are living in a building described as "stan surowy zamknity", it is "warm" indeed :P 16:12:52 -!- peddie [n=peddie@18.224.1.200] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:02 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 16:13:08 -!- Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:13:11 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host207-200-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 16:13:33 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:13:45 joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp474.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 16:13:59 tic: It took us some time till we installed central heating :) 16:14:35 p_l, well, as long as you have power for the 'puters.. ;) 16:15:25 tic: I had to wait for getting my own laptop before I could get anything done - desktops were forbidden due to possibility of provoking thieves :) 16:15:35 the people who designed my apartment building clearly decided that it would never, ever be below 0 degrees again, and thus there was no need to make it possible to heat it adequately in that instance 16:15:42 p_l, I'm not sure I understand what the phrase means. I understand the words, but in its entity. I checked google, and it seemed to be just the fundament of the house but w/ doors and windows 16:15:57 tic: Something like that :) 16:16:08 p_l, yow, where do you live? 16:16:29 tic: That was the state when my family moved in - we were still building the house (back in Poland) 16:16:43 rsynnott, lucky you. I have these ventilation thingies that won't close completely. one is located above my desk, and one is located above my head in my bedroom... 16:17:11 p_l, business as usual then? ;) seems like that's the standard way to go about house building there. 16:17:13 tic: When I left for studies, we still haven't finished it completely :) 16:17:27 tic: More like we were homeless :P 16:17:33 p_l, eep. 16:18:11 *tic* has to pick up the Polish studies again... 16:18:51 tic: The guy we were buying an old house (to rebuild it into something better) had tried forcing us to pay more, when we came to him with three-sided contract (which was for buying his house&land and for selling our flat to another family) 16:19:34 p_l, ugh, complicated. 16:19:34 tic: We got angry and instead bought a plot of land and started building our own, while living at friends house for a year (in the same village) 16:20:09 p_l, that sounds.... fun. 16:20:23 FSV of "fun" :P 16:20:32 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:21:28 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@pD9E4616B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:53 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:21:58 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:22:13 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-68-82-30-242.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:35 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-68-82-30-242.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:22 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 16:32:31 LostMonarch [n=roby@host207-200-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:32:31 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 16:34:25 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 16:34:34 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@c-24-62-40-124.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:35:29 -!- anekos is now known as awaykos 16:35:31 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-34-208.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:36:02 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 16:36:25 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:32 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:44 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-248.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:37:00 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 16:39:58 less talk, more ajaxy closy shinny things please! and NOW! 16:40:16 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [] 16:41:33 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:57 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-248.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 16:42:37 loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 16:42:47 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp132.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:43:01 -!- antoni [n=antoni@47.pool85-53-28.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:46:18 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:47:39 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@network-65-167-67-54.doubleclick.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:49:14 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:49:26 Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has joined #lisp 16:49:50 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@network-65-167-67-54.doubleclick.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:02 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:59 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-68-82-30-242.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:52:00 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:52:19 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-68-82-30-242.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:03 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:59 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 16:57:39 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 16:57:39 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:57:40 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 17:00:41 fusss: define "ajaxy closy shinny things" :) 17:00:58 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp183-63.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:02:03 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:02:17 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:41 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:16 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:21 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:02 a jquery UI thing with a custom "themeroller" color scheme that talks to hunchentoot over teh interwebs 17:05:49 "themeroller"? I guess I'm a little behind current trends ^^; 17:06:49 *p_l* checked it on google and is impressed 17:06:57 yes you are, but not for long. think of it as glade, but for "html" 17:08:31 fusss: If it will degrade gracefully to HTML+CSS when it runs without JS, I'll be all over this :) 17:09:13 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:25 hmmm... most of themeroller page work nicely without JS except for stuff that is obviously JS-only... 17:11:52 p_l: ask and ye shall receive 17:12:55 graceful enough for ya? http://i39.tinypic.com/6pxemv.jpg 17:13:37 H4ns [n=hans@92.117.32.3] has joined #lisp 17:13:43 the web weenies have finally started to engineer software, imo. 17:15:43 fusss: Nice ;) 17:16:04 ugh! friday the 13th is selected in my screenshot! that means i have to build ECL on windows twice and sacrifice a small chicken. 17:16:35 fusss: hey, you get to use the bones for debugging 17:17:32 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:19:07 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 17:19:19 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:19:29 Rajin_ [n=Rajin@d027170.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 17:19:37 -!- joachifm [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp474.studby.uio.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:23:52 -!- Rajin_ [n=Rajin@d027170.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:24:05 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-68-82-30-242.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:26:30 dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-34-208.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:08 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-34-208.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:27:25 dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-34-208.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:19 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-159-249.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Operation timed out] 17:28:56 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 17:29:55 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:30:53 mega1`: re x87 on x86-64, there's a code size advantage. 17:33:37 -!- ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:35:50 FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has joined #lisp 17:37:52 -!- Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has quit [No route to host] 17:39:14 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:39:33 -!- gzip4 [n=xxx@78.108.73.250] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:39:39 workthrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:42:27 -!- H4ns [n=hans@92.117.32.3] has quit [Success] 17:44:19 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:45:40 milanj- [n=milan@77.46.202.199] has joined #lisp 17:47:58 peddie [n=peddie@GUGGENHEIM-FOUR-SEVENTEEN.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:48:09 -!- peddie [n=peddie@GUGGENHEIM-FOUR-SEVENTEEN.MIT.EDU] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:48:19 mpeddie [n=peddie@GUGGENHEIM-FOUR-SEVENTEEN.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 17:48:27 -!- mpeddie [n=peddie@GUGGENHEIM-FOUR-SEVENTEEN.MIT.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:51:29 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #lisp 17:55:25 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.248.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:56:03 parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:49 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.152] has joined #lisp 17:58:52 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C9F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["I am Locutus of Borg! You will assist us!"] 18:00:31 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:00:31 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:44 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 18:01:12 milan [n=milan@79.101.249.241] has joined #lisp 18:04:13 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:04:17 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:48 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:07 rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:36 -!- rpg_ is now known as rpg 18:09:55 Can it successfully be argued that a C++ try-finally is semantically eqivalent to (handler-case (t (exception) (error exception)))? 18:10:04 -!- milanj- [n=milan@77.46.202.199] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:19 C++ doesn't have try finally, does it? 18:10:37 It doesn't? 18:10:56 Well, if it doesn't, whatever the moral equivalent is, then. 18:11:12 destructors, I think. 18:11:22 Including the auto-generated cruft for running destructors on stack-allocated objects. 18:12:35 Whichever. A catch-and-rethrow, then. 18:12:44 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:01 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 18:13:57 nyef: a catch-and-rethrow doesn't execute unless a exception is thrown :D 18:14:18 I think object destructors are the only guaranteed cleanup 18:14:55 -!- djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:15:00 Oh, damn. You mean that object destructors actually act like unwind-protect? 18:15:20 just don't throw an exception in one 18:16:14 djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:16:26 -!- stepnem [n=stepnem@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:17:39 Right, but I'm more concerned with the interaction with handler-bind. 18:18:08 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:18:37 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C9F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:44 are you doing lisp <-> c++ stuff? 18:18:58 Only incidentally. I'm actually looking at unwind stuff. 18:19:13 Hmm, can't you throw over a handler-case? 18:19:15 -!- djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:19:49 I finally have a feel for the unwieldliness of the base unwind ABI for "most" platforms, as it's essentially the same interface derived from the Itanium ABI. 18:20:07 And now I'm trying to figure out how to fit Lisp semantics into the picture. 18:20:26 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.152] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:48 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.152] has joined #lisp 18:21:13 (Want to know something fun? ForcedUnwind executes outside the extent of -all- exits, though their extent may be restarted after the unwind completes.) 18:21:41 -!- manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:22:13 djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:23:14 antoni [n=antoni@207.pool85-53-22.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 18:24:10 Zhivago: Sure, you can nlx over a handler-case, as it's a special case of handler-bind... But we have to implement that as an exception throw, due to the bogosity of ForcedUnwind. 18:25:11 And this is not actually a loss, as our semantics allow for unwind-protect blocks to perform nlx under normal unwind circumstances. 18:26:09 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:26:24 -!- djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:27:07 djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:27:40 So, a C++ catch-and-rethrow is, notionally, a handler-case-and-error, and a C++ implicit destructor call is the same? 18:28:05 (Because they have no semantic for actually implementing unwind-protect.) 18:28:17 I think the destructor corresponds to unwind-protect 18:28:22 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:28:35 it has to be called in the absence of an exception, too. 18:29:18 Okay, I think I see this now. 18:29:40 Bloody C++-centric idiot specs. 18:29:44 yeah, you use dtors for uwp-style cleanup. 18:30:07 pkhuong: But my question is, do the dtors end up doing a handler-case or not? 18:30:26 And I don't think they do. 18:30:49 Which leaves me wondering what it all -means-. 18:31:35 nyef: what would constitute doing handler-case (or close enough)? 18:32:06 nyef: at least you don't have c++ restarts to worry about 18:32:36 Jasko3 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 18:32:50 pkhuong: Handler-case roughly corresponds to the personality routine returning _URC_HANDLER_FOUND during _UA_SEARCH_PHASE processing. 18:33:34 weirdo [n=sthalik@c153-202.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 18:34:13 meow 18:35:28 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:34 Okay, I think I see how this can work now. 18:36:16 The problem is going to be figuring out how to stop processing the exception during the first phase. 18:36:44 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.152] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:36:45 (This is going to be nasty, implementationwise, no matter what I do.) 18:37:12 minion: memo for vy: re searching for one vector in another, look up Boyer-Moore -- this tells you how much you *can* skip 18:37:12 Remembered. I'll tell vy when he/she/it next speaks. 18:37:17 nyef: no, clean-up is supposed to not find any handler during the search phase but execute in the second phase 18:37:27 -!- colouragga is now known as simonkey 18:37:32 pkhuong: Right, that's what I just saw. 18:37:48 minion: memo for vy: ...but why not let CL:SEARCH take care of that for you? :) 18:37:49 I guess that means the C++ runtime installs a handler at the bottom of the stack. 18:37:49 Remembered. I'll tell vy when he/she/it next speaks. 18:37:57 pkhuong: Which means that we need to use the first phase unwind to do our search for a suitable handler. 18:38:04 kpreid: in what implementation does that happen? 18:38:20 pkhuong: a Sufficiently Smart one 18:38:57 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has quit [] 18:39:15 frodef [n=ffj@69.80-202-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:29 kpreid [n=kpreid@216-171-188-181.northland.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:37 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:41:54 josemanuel [n=josemanu@142.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:42:49 pkhuong: one in which you load contrib/.lisp, wherein I implement Boyer-Moore for string needles in search 18:43:38 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:45:18 compiler-extras.lisp, thanks. 18:45:43 hi all 18:46:26 Hello frodef. 18:50:15 hey nyef, anything new since... the last six months or so? :) 18:50:23 Tons. 18:50:39 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:50:43 cool.. 18:50:59 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:51:05 A lot of it within the past month, too. 18:51:46 what about? 18:52:53 Well, I got _8david's relocatable core space stuff to work on cold-cores. 18:53:24 Made a few... improvements to SBCL genesis. 18:53:51 I've got rough plans for a new win32 lisp (I know this happens periodically, but this time for sure!) 18:53:52 does that mean better handling of heavy-consing programs? 18:54:02 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 18:54:07 a non-sbcl win32 lisp? 18:54:15 what, a brand-new one? 18:54:21 It means better handling of when someone maps something into the core space area prior to mapping the core. 18:54:40 nyef: oh, ok, that's good too. 18:54:53 A semi-non-sbcl win32 lisp. Starting from SBCL, fully relocatable, no C runtime, sbcl.dll, etc. 18:55:22 REincarnations [i=REincarn@gateway/tor/x-9b2f8379f0a0e931] has joined #lisp 18:55:26 mm.. Interactions between longjmp and catch(...); is pretty "interesting". 18:55:32 -!- REincarnations [i=REincarn@gateway/tor/x-9b2f8379f0a0e931] has left #lisp 18:55:40 And right now I'm starting to get a real handle on how to make stack unwinding work properly in the presence of alien stack frames on non-win32 platforms. 18:56:17 pkhuong: Oh? I know that the catch blocks aren't allowed to not re-throw, but... 18:56:18 nyef: so that needs to be win32-specific? (the newish lisp) 18:56:50 frodef: Not entirely, but I know -how- to do it for Win32 and it's the only platform I have the use-case for... 18:57:00 <_8david> what's the plan for full relocatability? 18:57:00 nyef: and longjmp is a foreign exception object, so the only thing they can do is continue execution after the catch block. 18:57:33 <_8david> I was thinking that one could "just" put NIL into a register, and look up objects in read-only and static space relative to NIL, at the expense of a little code bloat. 18:57:44 how is it that sbcl isn't relocatable currently? 18:57:56 hm.. NIL is constant? :) 18:58:04 _8david: Bah. "Just" record the fixup, and have a "relative/absolute" bit. 18:58:15 <_8david> frodef: with my patch, the dynamic space is relocatable, but the read-only and static space still aren't. 18:58:27 pkhuong: ... Wait, what? 18:59:05 pkhuong: You can't rethrow a foreign exception, but at the same time you can't not rethrow when you're doing a forced unwind? 18:59:17 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:42 <_8david> nyef: okay, that makes sense 18:59:57 continue regular execution, that is. The longjmp is forgotten about. 19:00:28 pkhuong: That's not... No! You're not supposed to do that from a forced unwind. 19:01:35 Nevermind that, unlike win32 exceptions, the unwind model doesn't include a way to -not- run phase 2... 19:01:45 oh wait, no. It's the reverse; even if you don't rethrow, unwinding continues. 19:02:01 Right, that's more like it. 19:02:21 And, yes, we're going to need to do the same with unwind-protect forms. 19:03:01 If we never handle during phase 1 (for uwp), is that ever an issue? 19:03:34 It's for finding the valid handlers. 19:04:31 We need separate handler-search and unwind-processing paths. 19:05:09 All of our UWPs have to handle. 19:05:13 woo, unwinding through C++ exception frames? 19:05:28 foom: Alien stack frames in general. 19:05:39 Right. But uwps only need to execute in the second phase. If a foreign exception is thrown we don't want to handle it. 19:05:56 Yes we do, because it's legal for our UWPs to NLX. 19:06:35 -!- djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:06:50 djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:07:04 (That is, our UWPs are semantically that handler-case form from earlier, but only for unwinding, not for searching for a suitable handler.) 19:07:44 have you figured out how to solve the "try { ... } catch (...) { do some cleanup; throw; }" issue? 19:07:57 foom: What's the issue? 19:08:32 why do you expect to have alien frames intertwined on the stack? 19:08:39 frodef: FFI. 19:08:47 that it catches every exception from anything, and handles it 19:08:55 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-7ac06022a9d9d090] has joined #lisp 19:08:59 and it has to truncate the stack first 19:09:08 foom: Yes. It's a handler-case for T that then rethrows the condition. 19:10:02 It's semantically stupid in Lisp terms, but it is what it is, and it looks like it's even permitted by CLHS. 19:10:21 frodef: with callbacks, but even without callbacks, executing uwp, etc. before killing the thread seems like a good thing. 19:10:47 Mmm... pthread cancellation, right? 19:10:53 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.138.149] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:11:39 hrm um, the problem I see is that people use catch(...) / rethrow in a number of places to implement try/finally 19:11:53 thread termination is mentiond as a specific use-case for forced unwind. 19:11:56 because even though the unwind spec has a try/finally (to implement destructors), C++ doesn't expose it explicitly 19:12:22 so if you want to find a handler to unwind to, you'll always land in the C++ code 19:12:27 foom: And I don't see it as a problem. There's a specific semantically-equivalent lisp construction. 19:12:54 Well, I'm glad you don't see it as a problem, because it might just mean I'm being stupid. :0 19:12:55 foom: and the handler will rethrow the lisp exception. 19:12:58 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.138.149] has joined #lisp 19:13:07 nyef: do you think in terms of the .net-runtime at all? 19:13:17 frodef: No, not in the least. 19:13:29 I don't even think in terms of the java runtime. 19:13:35 pkhuong: right, but lisp exception handlers can generally run in the dynamic context of the thrower. 19:13:37 ok :) 19:14:06 foom: Yes, but about the only thing they can do with that is access special bindings and restarts. 19:14:23 okay. 19:14:25 nyef: well, d-x. 19:14:45 foom: If alien code unwinds that, then the restarts go away, which is potentially confusing but at least well-defined. 19:14:49 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 19:15:23 pkhuong: Right. Except that that's also well defined as an undefined consequence, is it not? 19:15:30 I don't know. 19:16:14 Referring to d-x allocated data after the allocating stack frame has gone away? 19:16:27 hum, can you tell the difference soon enough from an unwind and an non-unwinding exception? 19:17:10 rather, condition 19:17:16 foom: Depends on your definition of "soon enough", perhaps. 19:17:38 -!- ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:17:58 ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:08 Ugh. Why do these ABI documents refer to the advantage of a two-phase exception model being in the ability to dismiss an exception, and then not specify a method to do so? 19:18:37 willb [n=wibenton@66.187.234.199] has joined #lisp 19:19:00 I don't think you can use the ABI-provided exception lookup in order to find the handler for lisp conditions, because of the intermediary-catch unwinding issue. 19:19:27 If you can avoid doing that, you can probably use it for finding the handler when you actually want to do an unwind though 19:20:11 Umm... The -entire point- of using the ABI-provided lookup in order to find handlers is so that alien code can do that intermediary-catch-and-unwind thing. 19:21:30 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 19:21:37 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:22:45 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:25:18 but many times when you signal a condition that you've setup a handler-bind handler for, you have absolutely no intent of causing an unwind at all. 19:25:31 ... So? 19:25:49 Just don't do that across a foreign-code boundary. 19:26:20 so you can't use conditions for emitting warnings anymore 19:26:50 -!- djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:27:27 -!- tritchey_ is now known as tritchey 19:27:37 That would be a consequence of interoperating with C++, yes. 19:27:59 I'm not sure that's a useful consequence. 19:28:15 djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:28:16 can you treat handler-bind differently than -case? 19:29:01 pkhuong: Not really, as a handler-case is a handler-bind that immediately does an NLX. 19:29:52 does it *have* to be? 19:29:54 I wonder if perhaps the lisp condition lookup should be done outside the platform ABI, but the search for a target to NLX to, done within it. 19:30:07 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:21 foom: I considered that, but what if you -want- the C++ code to handle a given condition? 19:30:54 if you set up an handler-bind, then the NLX it generates could perhaps be done in a way such that the C++ can still intercept it 19:31:06 er, handler-case 19:31:30 Then you're screwing up your evaluation order. What if the handler declines? 19:31:39 which handler? 19:31:48 The lisp handler, from the handler-bind. 19:31:51 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:32:29 You could hit the end of the stack while there's a C++ handler for the condition just sitting there waiting. 19:33:25 In short, we have two use-cases here, and we can only support one of them. 19:33:27 the handler-case can't decline after it's decided to do an NLX 19:33:39 But a handler-bind -can-. 19:34:08 right, so C++ code can never catch a non-unwinding condition. 19:34:22 Which is -wrong-. 19:34:26 why? 19:35:36 if you want a class of conditions to cause unwinds, you can set up a toplevel handler which will do that. 19:36:15 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:36:55 -!- djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:37:03 djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:37:33 It is wrong because, semantically, a C++ catch -is- a handler-case. 19:38:20 If you don't want such unwinds to happen, don't call C++ code that establishes a catch around a lisp callback. 19:39:23 Now, all this may be a moot point if I can't find a way to do the search phase within the context of the platform unwind API. 19:39:25 ginkgo [n=user@chello084113198244.17.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 19:40:01 Bloody thing says that it's designed the way it is in order to support exactly that, but then it turns around and doesn't say how. 19:40:19 I think I recall it not actually being implemented 19:40:27 ...vaguely recall 19:40:41 Yeah, my next step is to find some source code. 19:40:58 And if it's not implemented, well... Then our interop breaks a bit. 19:41:07 be careful, there's multiple implementations: libunwind and libc. 19:41:11 -!- milan [n=milan@79.101.249.241] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:41:12 libc is probably the one you should care about 19:41:21 or wait, it's actually in libgcc maybe 19:41:44 or...I think it might actually be in both actually. 19:42:27 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.236.133] has left #lisp 19:43:03 since it's impossible to implement a handler-bind in C++, and there's no such thing as try/finally, so everyone uses try/catch/rethrow, I just don't think it's reasonable to break lisp handler-binds via C++ handlers. 19:44:56 why not just rewrite everything in lisp for nih-value? 19:47:52 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.158.12] has quit ["Remember, there is no "I" in "Team America"."] 19:56:00 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbfd25.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:32 foom: Would you prefer if there were an alternate path for handling subclasses of condition that are not errors from the path used for those that are subclasses of error? 19:58:53 lc0099982 [n=lc@pool-72-84-94-158.nrflva.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:59 -!- lc0099982 [n=lc@pool-72-84-94-158.nrflva.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:00:00 Not that it matters right now, as every bloody unwind library that I've looked at so far treats a personality routine return of other than _URC_HANDLER_FOUND or _URC_NO_REASON as a fatal phase 1 error. 20:00:20 I may have an angle on that, though... 20:03:03 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 20:05:37 *_8david* doesn't see how handler-case enters into this discussion at all 20:05:40 <_8david> ... but I'm really looking forward to this whole patch in general 20:06:38 _8david: handler-case enters in because a C++ try/catch/rethrow is morally equivalent to handler-case/resignal-the-exception. 20:07:01 Thus it has a well-defined semantic in terms of lisp constructs. 20:08:14 milanj [n=milan@79.101.249.241] has joined #lisp 20:08:51 And I think I've got an angle on the whole "stopping an unwind during the first phase" thing: The unwind library as part of gcc doesn't seem to do any allocation other than simply on the stack. 20:09:01 So we should be able to unwind it. 20:09:47 Though I could be wrong. 20:10:34 _8david: The thing is, doing this right is going to be hellishly invasive. Changing non-local exits -and- handler-bind. 20:10:39 dexen [n=dexen@pc-287.ds4.tuniv.szczecin.pl] has joined #lisp 20:10:47 And the search function for a valid handler, and... 20:10:48 hello 20:11:01 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-18.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:12:00 mxb [n=mxb@bealbywm.plus.com] has joined #lisp 20:12:22 <_8david> hmm. My interest is only in the implementation of nlx-related VOPs. 20:12:30 <_8david> are you starting from scratch or was there a patch in this direction from someone else in the past already? 20:12:36 hello 20:12:53 I did the Win32 unwind stuff, does that count? 20:13:20 <_8david> Perhaps it does -- too bad I don't grok it yet. :-( 20:13:30 (And didn't someone do some work on dwarf information for lisp frames a while ago?) 20:13:34 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:45 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:13:48 willb1 [n=wibenton@66.187.234.199] has joined #lisp 20:14:09 That's the other part of this, outputting dwarf debug info for lisp code objects, and having them linked into whatever the platform needs. 20:14:12 pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167192180.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:51 -!- ginkgo [n=user@chello084113198244.17.14.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:16:44 The main changes for Win32 unwinding were to add an SEH-frame to the unwind-block structure, storing the current SEH pointer when populating the catch-block, setting the handler function and updating the SEH pointer when setting the UWP, cleaning it up when unsetting the UWP, and then the changes in the assembler-routines for unwind and continue-unwind, both of which generate VOPs (historically, the same VOP, but not once I had fini 20:16:45 shed). 20:17:12 The only really hard part was understanding _RtlUnwind(). 20:17:24 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:17:24 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:17:24 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 20:17:24 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net 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[i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 20:17:54 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 20:17:54 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:17:57 -!- jollygood_ [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has left #lisp 20:18:18 <_8david> sorry for the dumb questions, but what exactly does the SEH stuff achieve? ISTR something about FFI code not breaking the lisp, but I don't recall/understand the details. 20:18:25 -!- pokey19 [n=dmg@hlfxns0147w-142167192180.pppoe-dynamic.ns.aliant.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:19:17 <_8david> Also, searching for your post on this, I just found your patch eliminating kludge-nondeterministic-catch-block-size. Any reason you didn't end up committing that? 20:19:54 ... Yeah, it split compiler/generic/objedef.lisp, and I wasn't convinced it was a good idea. 20:20:01 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:20:06 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:21:30 Anyway, the SEH thing fixes the case of calling some alien code which establishes an SEH frame (such as CallWndProc or whatever it's called) and then invokes a lisp callback and the lisp callback throwing back to toplevel. 20:22:05 If we don't play ball at least that much, the next time an exception happens the SEH chain is corrupt, and the handler for -that- kills the process. 20:22:26 Nevermind any possibly-missed cleanups that didn't get performed. 20:22:48 H4ns [n=hans@dslb-088-071-077-067.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:51 better than throwing a triple-fault eh 20:23:31 mle: About equivalent, actually. Instant death, with no debug information. 20:24:15 -!- Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@pD9E4616B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:25:04 -!- willb [n=wibenton@66.187.234.199] has quit [No route to host] 20:26:51 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 20:26:54 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 20:27:21 _8david: On or around Jan 13, 2007, according to git log. 1.0.1.24. Also around Dec 5 2006, 1.0.0.19. 20:27:39 -!- djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:27:54 djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:29:54 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:30:46 commit 45b5a21316381ecab98a0e5a5296294e044170e8 is the one with all the VOP work. 20:30:59 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-134-134.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:32:51 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:33:43 -!- antoni [n=antoni@207.pool85-53-22.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [No route to host] 20:33:44 woodz [n=woodz@host81-129-242-72.range81-129.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 20:34:24 -!- djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:44 djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:37:46 -!- c|mell 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joined #lisp 20:43:40 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:40 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:40 vsync [n=vsync@220-27.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:40 simonkey [n=simon@89.18.164.214] has joined #lisp 20:43:40 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:40 cruliedin [n=rld@67.159.33.195] has joined #lisp 20:43:40 fgtech [i=nemesis@bnc1.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 20:43:40 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 20:43:40 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 20:43:44 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 20:44:08 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:53 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:45:16 francogrex [n=franco@91.176.138.246] has joined #lisp 20:45:31 #C 20:45:34 hi all, happy to have found this place finally 20:45:34 oops 20:45:49 i post on comp.lang.lisp 20:46:23 Beket [n=stathis@ppp183-63.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 20:46:43 -!- francogrex is now known as save-lisp-and-di 20:47:00 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 20:47:18 -!- save-lisp-and-di is now known as save-lisp- 20:47:49 -!- save-lisp- is now known as save-lisp-n-die 20:48:01 -!- cruliedin [n=rld@67.159.33.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:12 trenchantly [n=redi@69.133.87.165] has joined #lisp 20:48:15 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:19 ok, anyone uses the ECL implementation? 20:48:19 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:21 -!- simonkey [n=simon@89.18.164.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:30 simonkey [n=simon@89.18.164.214] has joined #lisp 20:48:35 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 20:48:40 -!- bhz- [n=limn@75.138.26.231] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:58 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:07 c|mell [n=cmell@EM114-48-140-158.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:50:03 hmm, I must have acquired the magic powers of invisibility when I entered this channel since no one seems to be able to notice me! 20:51:28 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 20:51:31 I've noticed you 20:51:47 -!- trenchantly [n=redi@69.133.87.165] has quit [K-lined] 20:51:52 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:51:59 nyef: I'm not sure, subclasses of error can still be signaled without unwind...although error vs signal functions have always rather irritated me...I still think the best compromise is to only invoke the Unwind machinery at all when you want to unwind. 20:52:08 thanks 20:52:39 so people are not too talkative here? 20:53:54 or maybe no-one uses ECL 20:54:05 who knows? Maybe you could ask an actually interesting question and see what happens 20:54:12 -!- Krystof has set mode -o Krystof 20:54:18 *frodef* doesn't use ECL. 20:54:49 save-lisp-n-die, i used it, but not anymore 20:54:57 I am spartacus 20:54:58 that really kills the suspense 20:54:59 no, wait 20:54:59 I dunno. I was planning a less interesting question of who uses CL on windows 20:55:10 weirdo, hi 20:55:16 hi 20:55:16 why not anymore? 20:55:35 CL for scripting didn't turn out such a good idea 20:55:46 to be such a good idea* 20:55:46 what do you prefer to use now? 20:55:47 Krystof, and the Sun Beneath The Sea? 20:55:55 sbcl, but not for embedding 20:56:10 and not on windows 20:56:18 yeah, that's the thing, I embed C 20:56:22 i only use windows for video games 20:56:32 understood 20:57:40 anybody in here in europe right now? 20:57:45 Yes. 20:57:47 Fade: Yes 20:57:48 yes 20:57:55 why? 20:58:14 this is off topic, but i'd appreciate it if you could look at http://murdochmysteries.uktv.co.uk/ 20:58:27 load a video and let me know how latent/responsive it is. 20:59:30 it seems frozen, at least on my pc nothing is happening 21:00:02 Fade: is it written in lisp?... 21:00:16 not directly. 21:00:25 some scaffolding 21:00:35 skittish client. 21:00:38 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbfd25.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:00:52 anyway, one of my obsessions is to translate a CL code into a human readable compilable C code 21:00:53 antoni [n=antoni@20.pool85-53-24.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:01:07 Fade, works for me 21:01:16 weirdo: what country are you in? 21:01:20 Fade, pooland 21:01:34 save-lisp-n-die: what country are you in? 21:01:38 you know, the one where people steal your cars, shoplift and get drunk 21:01:57 i was maried to a polish woman for a long time; i'm actually sort of fond of the place. ;) 21:02:02 ok now it works, pretty nice 21:02:14 belgium 21:02:41 ok. thanks! 21:02:53 -!- H4ns [n=hans@dslb-088-071-077-067.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:02:54 the site works surprisingly well, noting that flash used to crash and burn on unix all the time 21:03:23 though the interface is very unintuitive and i can't seem to be able to figure out what this site's all about 21:03:50 i have win xp and it works quite well on that; yeah but I know nothing about the murdoc mysteries 21:04:14 thanks guys. I'll pass your critiques to the designers. ;) 21:04:18 Fade: Works pretty fast, except for all those loading times... 21:05:00 p_l: would you say it takes inordinately long to spool up the flash? 21:05:28 Fade: On 512kbit... If i wasn't interested, I'd leave before it hit 50% 21:06:00 ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 21:06:06 normally I don't even look at sites that are 100% flash, though :) 21:06:06 *nod* 21:06:08 save-lisp: why readable C code? 21:06:19 i'm no fan of them myself. 21:06:31 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 21:07:04 hi frodef, it's a project I have, because where I work most people are in the habit of using C and it was a request from my boss 21:07:10 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:07:16 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:07:20 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:07:47 to sort of show that using CL saves time and energy... 21:08:01 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 21:08:21 save-lisp-n-die: did you see the recent c.l.l thread on CL->C translators? 21:08:39 "Excluding all corporations, the text from this book may be reproduced without permission in any form and quantity, by any means necessary." 21:08:55 nice copyright terms. though "non-free" in debian rhetoric 21:09:08 clhs class-slots 21:09:08 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for class-slots. 21:09:14 damnit .. that's amop 21:09:53 drewcn is it about the chestnut translator? 21:10:07 p_l: what country are you in? 21:10:18 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.152] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:10:34 Fade: Currently in UK (Scotland exactly) 21:10:39 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:10:39 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:10:40 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:10:40 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-223-182-13.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:10:40 -!- vsync [n=vsync@220-27.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:10:40 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:10:40 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:10:40 -!- m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:10:40 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:10:40 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:10:40 -!- fgtech [i=nemesis@bnc1.shellium.org] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:10:40 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:10:40 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:10:40 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@142.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:10:45 thanks 21:11:11 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 josemanuel [n=josemanu@142.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-223-182-13.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 vsync [n=vsync@220-27.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 fgtech [i=nemesis@bnc1.shellium.org] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 21:11:11 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 21:11:21 save-lisp-n-die: that's the one. 21:11:30 yea, I was there 21:11:52 it's frsutrating that they don't want to relkease the source code 21:12:07 save-lisp-n-die: so, you've some idea how mammoth an undertaking a cl->c translator would be. 21:12:10 gensymG2 seems to have theů 21:12:25 I know 21:12:37 it's tempting though 21:12:46 why? 21:12:58 if at least for demonstration purposes 21:13:14 I don't really see how such a translator would help demonstrate the usefulness of lisp. 21:13:22 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:13:30 btw, have you contacted gensym? They might license you a copy, and even if the fee is 100k it's cheaper than writing it yourself. 21:13:50 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:07 not yet, you think they'd be responsive... I might try 21:14:12 frodef: if anything needing it'll show that lisp is useless .. why not just write the readable C directly. 21:14:31 i'll tell you why 21:14:39 isn't ECL effectively a lisp->C xlator? 21:14:58 that's right ecl is but it's not the type pf code people write 21:15:08 Fade, ECL also has an interpreter 21:15:22 otherwise, a REPL would be rather unwieldy 21:15:36 yeah, but I was talking in terms of what save-lisp-n-die was discussing. 21:15:57 so you want idiomatic C as opposed to merely correct C? 21:16:19 save-lisp-n-die: if the C code is to be readable, does that mean the C code will be the 'source' and will be modified by other developers? 21:16:40 drewc: yes, maybe 21:16:52 thing is want to show the guys 21:16:58 ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:02 that use case doesn't sound particularly good. 21:17:09 ECL also has a strange preprocessor called 'dpp' 21:17:19 how he same program in lisp is more "compact " and elegant than in C 21:17:23 hijacking the at-sign for some nefarious purpose 21:17:50 save-lisp-n-die: you want to spend the next 5 years of your life to show the guys that lisp is more compact and elegant? 21:18:06 well, you know... 21:18:12 it's challenging also 21:18:21 just for the heck of it 21:18:28 save-lisp-n-die: there are better ways to waste your time IMO :) 21:18:38 save-lisp: I would suggest that for specific application domains it can be useful to have lisp programs generate C code. But generic lisp->C translation is not such a great idea I think. 21:18:52 generating C code that is both ideomatically and lexically correct is a bit more than challenging, I think. ;) 21:19:46 I realize that :) 21:19:47 what does (let ((count 0)) (lambda () (incf count))) look like in ideomatic C ? 21:20:04 hmm let me see; 21:20:24 you're welcome. 21:20:26 just throw a segfault and call it a day. 21:20:36 save-lisp-n-die: have you seen matrix? it's a lousy remake... but i think the idea in there that they can't wake up just anyone who is not looking for answers is relevant to you now... :) 21:20:40 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.138.149] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:21:07 attila_lendvai: I <3 COMPUTED-CLASS! 21:21:55 attila_lendvai: question though .. what is the rationale behind the behaviour of slot-boundp? 21:21:58 drewc: good to hear that! :) we struggled a lot with the MOP code of cl-dwim and cl-perec before c-c was born... 21:22:07 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:22:31 drewc: i don't have a clue right now about how slobop behaves... :) 21:22:58 attila_lendvai: fair enough :) I'll bug the mailing list. 21:23:38 auclairb [n=auclairb@dhcp180-16.residence.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 21:25:08 : I am trying to understznd what you're saying but can't get it 21:26:02 attila_lendvai, in cc do you automatically recompute slots when dependents change? 21:26:11 also i can't find synapses 21:26:35 save-lisp-n-die: heck, what does (expt 2 65) look like in ideomatic C ;) 21:26:56 ..or (+ x 1) ? 21:27:39 (signal 'simple-condition) ? 21:27:55 save-lisp-n-die: you can't tell a C programmer that lisp is a good thing if he is not looking for an answer that is beyond the realm of C. in the movie if they woke up someone who was not looking for the answer, then they would go crazy at the moment they are detached from the virtual reality (their universe)... 21:28:07 2^65 ? 21:28:14 or 21:28:16 0 ENTRY 21:28:16 1 PUSH 2 21:28:16 3 QUOTE 65 21:28:16 5 CALLG2 EXPT 21:28:16 7 EXIT 21:28:32 buh 21:28:35 save-lisp-n-die: umm... 21:28:39 weirdo: when a dependent is accessed and is found to be dirty 21:30:24 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:27 ENTRY; PUSH 2; QUOTE 65; CALLG2 EXPT; EXIT 21:30:54 that's how ECL does it :) 21:31:54 so that's idiomatic C? 21:32:35 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:45 -!- FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:32:50 save-lisp-n-die: echo 'int main () {printf ("%d\n", 2^65);}' >foo.c && gcc -o foo foo.c && ./foo => 67 21:33:04 it may not share your set of idioms, is all! 21:33:20 pkhuong: Ok if you say so. I'm on x86, seems to work just fine for me without returning any odd 0 result :) 21:33:41 CL-USER> (expt 2 65) => 36893488147419103232 21:33:48 drewc: I know I just did it 21:34:06 save-lisp-n-die: so, what is the ideomatic C for (expt 2 65) ? 21:34:20 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:33 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.28] has joined #lisp 21:38:48 schmx: is this still the sin/cos issue? 21:39:14 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:15 mega1`: Sure. I just saw that pkhuong had written something directed at me so I answered. 21:39:37 Is what I do! 21:39:42 *schmx* <- reply-bot 21:39:55 (sin (expt 2d0 65)) returns non-zero for you? 21:40:04 rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:36 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:40:42 -!- simonkey [n=simon@89.18.164.214] has left #lisp 21:41:29 Yes. 21:41:34 uname -a ? 21:41:39 sbcl version? 21:42:00 1.0.24.46 and 1.0.25.something 21:42:25 uname -a hrmmm.. Linux flexbox 2.6.26.8-rt12 #1 SMP PREEMPT RT Thu Jan 8 05:09:15 CET 2009 x86_64 GNU/Linux 21:42:35 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:42:45 0.0d0 here 21:42:46 schmx: that's x86-64 :-) 21:42:51 Well x86 still. 21:43:02 raRaRa [n=ra@net.ice.is] has joined #lisp 21:43:02 #include 21:43:02 int main () 21:43:02 { 21:43:02 double x=2, y=65; 21:43:02 printf("%lf", pow(x,y)); 21:43:03 system("PAUSE"); 21:43:05 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 21:43:05 } 21:43:06 Hello. 21:43:17 schmx: in this case the distinction matters 21:43:40 mega1`: Well one would expect sane behaviour even on small bit machine though. 21:43:48 Atleast I would :) 21:44:21 but what's the point u want to make? 21:44:37 I have (setf *patterns* '( (3 3 1 1 0) (3 3 2 2 16) (3 4 5 6 7) ) ) How would I print for example (3 3 1 1 0) from *patterns* ? 21:44:40 Huh? No point. 21:44:50 Someone said it didn't work, I tested here and it worked for me. 21:44:54 Then some discussion started. 21:45:03 Would lisp define it as an array and thus I could use aref ? 21:45:06 the code i've given u works 21:45:19 Huh 21:45:21 Works for what? 21:45:40 save-lisp: how about C for (defun f (x) (g x)) ? 21:45:46 Any help would be appreciated. 21:45:50 (car *patterns*) 21:46:11 What about second ? 21:46:18 raRaRa: (second *patterns*) 21:46:21 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:22 raRaRa: go read a book 21:46:27 frodef: I hate C; why do u ask me this 21:46:31 Ugh, is there no index based one ? 21:46:33 ? 21:46:39 I don't like "car, second, third.." 21:46:50 do u like nth? 21:46:51 raRaRa: (elt *patterns* 0) 21:46:56 Thank you sykopomp 21:47:10 raRaRa: yes, there's a first function 21:47:12 save-lisp: because I'm curious what you'd consider idiomatic C equivalent? 21:47:22 (nth 0 ...) 21:47:43 raRaRa: you might really want to read a book 21:47:46 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:48:04 minion: PLEASE tell raRaRa about that-dead-sexy-book 21:48:05 raRaRa: please see that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:48:11 i dunno, i guess the one a human can reproduce and write just being "human" 21:48:36 Ok #lisp seems weird today. 21:48:38 and learn to like car cdr etc.. 21:48:46 schmx: it's the noobparade 21:48:57 those are esential and historical 21:49:11 Oh.. someone put a lisp post on reddit or something? 21:49:36 I don't know. 21:49:45 why because of me? 21:50:05 i post on cll not reddit 21:50:48 Darned. I had some mcclim issue here I was gonna bug people about but it slipped my mind. 21:52:42 ok other questions? 21:53:22 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:56:22 : how woiuld you get (3 3 4) from *pattens* ? 21:59:49 save-lisp-n-die: I got an answer (elt *patterns index) 22:00:18 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:19 If you guys are curious how I came to this channel, then it's cause I'm studying AI at my uni. They seem to focus on lisp. 22:00:19 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp183-63.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:00:49 raRaRa: I half-throught you were trolling, but if you actually want to learn lisp, there's plenty of resources to do so. 22:00:50 lisp or prolog *are*good for doing AI 22:00:57 Lisp is all about AI ;) 22:01:11 -!- schmx is now known as schme 22:01:13 lisp is just plain nice 22:01:29 Yeeeah. 'cept the occassional odd spot. 22:01:42 like UNIX scripting, filesystem stuff, etc? 22:01:47 :P 22:02:33 Ya.. there also was something else the other day. I don't remember what it was. Just one of those "Oh no. CL is just so incredibly ugly. I really should fix the whole language" moments that happen every now and then ;) 22:03:03 AI, yeah... we just tell our codebase to calculate the budget of the local governments and it goes, reads up on the relevant law and reports back with the result (although, for some strange reason it's always 42. i'll have to check that!) 22:03:04 i'm sure if you ask in the right places, you'll get a fairly long list 22:03:13 no, i asked how would u get (3 3 4) 22:04:25 it's not (elt *patterns* index), will not give u (3 3 4) 22:04:55 I am sorry to be a pain in the arse here, but please.. the `u' is killing me. 22:05:37 and `' aren't a matched pair either. 22:05:53 They aren't ? 22:06:01 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:06:03 nope. 22:06:13 Oh cool. One learns something new every day. 22:06:18 -!- djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:06:38 djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:06:49 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:06:56 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 22:07:27 if someone is interested in learning, he/she would try to solve problems all day long 22:07:35 ` and ´ are, though 22:07:48 foom: That looks exactly like what I put ? 22:08:16 ' is an apostrophe, and ´ is an acute accent. they're two different characters 22:08:19 who is interested in solving problems to solve problems? 22:08:19 in most fonts they look different 22:08:24 Hmm.. 22:08:28 I'll try another font. 22:08:33 to learn mate, to learn 22:08:51 Oh I see. I thought it was `´ I put. 22:09:05 Well nevermind :) 22:09:20 Just write a program to solve the problems and go do something worthwhile. 22:09:32 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:10:00 true, but for raRARA to write the program he needs to learn first right? 22:10:21 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:11:14 now seriously, would like to see some skills what is the shortest most elegent way to get (3 3 5) from *patterns* ? 22:11:34 raRaRa: What uni? 22:11:54 University of Reykjavik (in iceland) 22:12:01 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@66.187.234.199] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:12:32 We were given assignment (program) that has to be written in Lisp. The school teaches Java, C++ & C# so Lisp is pretty much differnet to me compared to those languages. Especially the syntaxes. 22:13:08 What a brilliant mix. 22:13:41 Our first assignment is to write a search algorithm using Breadth-first search etc. 22:13:58 raRaRa: Assignment in Lisp with no lisp taught? Sounds like my last AI exam ("prepare a research plan for Strong AI") 22:14:07 p_l: Yeah, it's quiet annoying. 22:14:24 ok here is a suggestion: (loop for i from 0 below (length *patterns*) collect (nth i (nth i *patterns*))) 22:14:28 That's why I'm being rude and asking questions here rather than reading a book. 22:14:45 -!- mega1` [n=mega@3e70d20c.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:14:47 it's ok to ask questions but u need to keep an open mind 22:14:47 raRaRa, otherwise, PCL is good. 22:14:54 raRaRa: Terrorize your librarian/professor for a copy of PAIP 22:15:11 raRaRa: Then write down the example on BFS 22:15:27 (or steal the pdf) 22:15:33 ;) 22:15:39 Well I will go to bed then. goodnight. 22:15:40 there shall be no stealing. 22:15:43 come to think of it, sources for examples should be somewhere on the net 22:15:57 they are on Norvig's page 22:16:04 right 22:16:20 but you really need to know your lisp very well before you attack PAIP especially the later chapters 22:16:42 I mean really well; a long way to go for a novice 22:16:55 the first few chapters are really nice though, good at the list part of Lisp. 22:16:56 Well, PAIP has the solution for his problem. For learning I'd recommend PCL 22:17:09 PAIP is one of the best but the toughtest; espetially the symbolic 22:17:25 sure PCL is very good 22:17:30 p_l, so it boils down to the choosing between a fish and a pole. 22:17:45 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host207-200-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 22:17:57 tic: I'm giving references to both, so he can have enough energy to train his fishing skills ;-) 22:19:09 one of the nicest to read is touretzky's, it's elemntary 22:19:16 <_death> save-lisp-n-die: that's horrible code 22:19:29 whta code? 22:19:35 the loop? 22:19:35 <_death> save-lisp-n-die: your loop suggestion 22:19:44 ok, just a tease 22:19:48 gzip4 [n=xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 22:19:51 show me a nicer one 22:19:53 save-lisp-n-die: (mapcar (function elt) *patterns* (com.informatimago.common-lisp.list:iota (length *patterns*))) 22:20:00 I'm sure there are several 22:20:26 ;; (mapcar (lambda (pattern) 22:20:26 ;; (print pattern) 22:20:26 ;; (format t "~%") 22:20:26 ;; (print-state (make-state :env (init-env pattern)))) 22:20:26 ;; *patterns*) 22:20:34 (loop for i from 0 for l in *patterns* collect (elt l i)) 22:20:37 This is how we can print the board. 22:20:55 If you guys are interested, I can paste the base code. 22:20:56 <_death> at least (loop for i from 0 for x in ze-list collecting (nth i x)) 22:20:57 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:22:15 ok, sure PCL and death, yours is more straightforward 22:22:21 <_death> raRaRa: use http://paste.lisp.org/ for pasting stuff 22:23:31 ok get (3 7 16) 22:24:26 oh never mind 22:24:27 save-lisp-n-die: so you really want to flunk your lisp exams? 22:24:42 what exams? 22:24:55 what are you talking about? 22:24:58 pjb, raRaRa is the one in school 22:25:15 ah! :-) 22:25:27 I though it was save-lisp-n-die who wanted us to do his homework :-) 22:25:50 I am testing 22:26:59 ok, anyone has used lispworks profeessional edition? 22:27:57 someone somewhere probably has 22:28:49 i'm curious about the delivery system that is not available in the personal edition 22:29:14 with the "tree-shaker" 22:30:39 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:32:03 WhitFlame [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:04 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-18.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:33:52 ... Do I remember rightly that modern SBCL tries to group all code-objects together, or at least bunches of them together? 22:34:00 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-159-249.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:35:19 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:35:20 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-37.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:36:22 -!- WhitFlame [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:36:25 ? 22:36:45 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 22:37:05 Hmm, someone from iceland was here it seems, as I. 22:37:06 Odin 22:37:21 among few others here 22:38:05 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:38:53 Hi Odin- 22:39:14 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has left #lisp 22:39:18 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:39:19 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has left #lisp 22:39:26 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:39:31 That's a nice wave-back. 22:39:32 Hmm. 22:39:41 Buggy client. 22:39:58 -!- durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has quit [] 22:40:00 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 22:40:11 Does Háskóli Íslands teach Lisp ? 22:40:38 or are you learning Lisp as an own personal experience? 22:40:52 Hrm... Doesn't seem to separate them enough for what I want. 22:43:33 Is it easy to store objects in some list container? 22:44:02 I want to generate states and save them in a List type container where I can easily look up elements and add new. 22:45:09 -!- weirdo [n=sthalik@c153-202.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:45:18 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 22:46:00 the conversations here seem very chunky... there is no real interaction 22:46:26 I expected this forum to be better from what i've heard from peter seibel 22:46:32 we try to keep a high SNR 22:46:34 maybe it's just today 22:47:12 peter was referring to it how it was 5 yrs ago 22:48:09 save-lisp-n-die: what /did/ you expect? 22:48:14 it's nothing about SNR; there is lack of interactions 22:48:31 <_death> save-lisp-n-die: you seem to have made up your mind 22:48:42 well a little more willingness to share and talk etc.. 22:48:47 death not really 22:48:52 when i have a real problem, it usually is solved within minutes in this channel 22:48:55 I said it may be just today 22:49:19 is it only about solving problems? 22:49:38 or also sharing experiences related to CL? 22:49:45 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-204-206.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:50:06 I'm very sure a lot are helpful 22:50:23 It might just be that not so many are interested in talking about extracting numbers from *pattern* 22:50:23 if it's related to CL, it's surely on topic 22:51:29 it doesn't mean that people will interact with you on anything related to CL though 22:51:47 dan___ [n=dan@94-193-7-241.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:51:55 durka42 [n=durka@130.58.199.81] has joined #lisp 22:52:36 so just because you didn't get 250 "no" answers to your stunningly interesting question of "has anyone used Lispworks professional" you don't need to condemn the channel as not interactive (whatever that means) 22:52:38 it's also the nature of chatting: on a usenet group things are more focused 22:52:42 -!- dan___ is now known as oswaldo 22:52:55 bullshit 22:53:02 -!- oswaldo is now known as oswalda 22:53:16 I can imagine few things less focused than c.l.l 22:53:35 look, every serious programmer or developer has heard of the tree-shaker and many may express an inetrest in it 22:53:39 -!- mxb [n=mxb@unaffiliated/mxb] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 22:53:56 I can imagine few things less focused than c.l.l << what des that mean? 22:54:15 save-lisp-n-die: Sometimes I get the feeling that many people currently working with CL don't seem to give so much priority to it... 22:54:18 This is so much fun I can't go to bed. 22:54:52 as far as I can tell cll is just a platform for kenny desperately trying to be funny, for trolls to crosspost into, etc. not a forum for holding a serious conversation about anything 22:54:53 seems to me as well 22:55:36 maybe it got better since I finally unsubscribed 22:55:36 What use is a tree shaker anyway? Sure maybe you would get the sbcl image to lose a couple of megabytes.. but how does that matter on a modern machine? 22:55:47 but the serious guys like pascal costanza and peter seibel surely give it high priority 22:56:29 schme: Well, I prefer to kill as much unnecessary stuff as I can. When you lose some work because some people thought that memory is so cheap that it doesn't matter... (Yes, I'm talking about you, Firefox!) 22:56:30 <_death> jsnell: not really.. lately there are many trolls and troll defenders posting 22:56:33 *stassats* doesn't like much meta-talks 22:56:46 if your idea of interactive is that by asking a question you can immediately guarantee starting a conversation on tree-shakers, I'm not sure any forum is the right place for you 22:57:02 p_l: I'll just stay away from the firefox bait there. I've never seen it use more than 1gb of ram so I'm all happy with it :) 22:57:14 maybe it got better since I finally unsubscribed << there are trolls posting things unrelated to CL (something about selling watches tec) 22:57:16 schme: Though for experiments I don't need tree-shaker (I might need it if I were to deploy a standalone app) 22:57:24 So, who wants to talk about backtrace instead? 22:57:27 but the CL posts are straight to the point 22:57:36 schme: Well, I had it crash my machine through OOM (~1.7G?) 22:57:42 (for example I'm not currently in the mood for having the 10th or 20th discussion on why sbcl won't have a tree shaker, but I might have at some other time) 22:57:46 p_l: I could maybe appreciate it for a standalone app.. But it does not seem a high priority to me :) 22:57:53 p_l: That's crazy. 22:58:16 ....I'm not sure any forum is the right place for you << TRUE 22:58:18 What about backtraces? :) 22:58:40 schme: Let's say that Firefox and "long run" doesn't go well together :D 22:59:10 anyway, whether you like or dislike the idae of a tree shaker, lispworks is making millions from it 22:59:11 p_l: Hmm.. I have different FF experience it seems. It just.. works really sweet for months on end :S 22:59:21 schme: Right now I'm trying to figure out if glibc uses the dwarf unwind data that the exception handling library uses in order to provide backtraces through its API. 22:59:22 weirdo [n=sthalik@c153-202.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:59:23 Yes. I'm sure that is lispworks main selling point. 22:59:24 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:59:47 rhc [n=matt@qnan.org] has joined #lisp 22:59:49 I'm less sure they're making millions 22:59:59 *schme* looks for a suitable stick to touch what nyef just said with. 23:00:01 The other option is going to be writing a dwarf -parser- in lisp and trying to tie that into the same tables that the unwinder uses. 23:00:03 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 23:00:06 lispworks has lisp-hug mail-list 23:00:07 Hmm.. no stick. Not touching it. 23:00:21 nyef: You're crazy :) 23:00:35 schme: I have a spare stick if you want. I use it mainly for when I need to look at win64 stuff. 23:00:44 That *does* remind me I should poke around the usb thing. 23:00:53 Hmm. 23:00:57 noss [n=cs@h119n2-asp-a13.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 23:01:34 Millions? 23:01:38 a dwarf parser would be nice, to get rid of that frame-guessing kludge 23:01:39 maio [n=maio@217.196.213.98] has joined #lisp 23:01:41 Yes. from tree shaking ;) 23:01:59 only if it's a money-tree 23:02:03 Oh, right, the usb thing. I should try and find the last couple commands that I'm missing from my mp3 player protocol junk. 23:02:13 though the dwarf 2 spec is something like a 100 pages, so it's gonna be a fair bit of work 23:02:35 jsnell: Actually, the frame-guessing kludge could be markedly improved simply by taking into account the IP address of the function. 23:02:43 Ok things seem sane again. I'll venture off to bed. g'night #lisp 23:03:37 So if you shake the tree, presumably that gets rid of stuff that you don't need, right? So then what happens if you have a program that builds code based on inputs that ends up calling that which has been shaken out? 23:04:06 nyef: still need dwarf for -femit-frame-pointer. which is default on x86-64 23:04:14 s/emit/omit/ 23:04:28 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:04:57 True. 23:04:59 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:05:10 wgl: doesn't sound like you should be shaking an application that does things like that 23:05:24 save-lisp-n-die if you want a tree shaker that much maybe you should go ahead and buy lispworks 23:05:32 chessweb [n=chatzill@f054218233.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:05:49 -!- chessweb [n=chatzill@f054218233.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:06:02 peddie [n=peddie@GUGGENHEIM-FOUR-SEVENTEEN.MIT.EDU] has joined #lisp 23:06:11 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:06:28 -!- noss [n=cs@h119n2-asp-a13.ias.bredband.telia.com] has left #lisp 23:06:31 nothing uses full dwarf at runtime 23:06:44 it's all the eh_frame subset 23:06:49 much simpler. :) 23:08:12 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 23:08:39 you mean, shorter :P 23:08:59 pretty likely to be simpler too :-) 23:09:20 "full *dwarf*" 23:09:32 So.. yes.. dynamic list in Lisp.. any suggestions ? 23:09:43 go read PCL 23:09:46 is this a joke? 23:09:46 Either way, this is a problem we can certainly stab to death. 23:09:50 damn I lost a function I wrote a few days ago... I really should use a distributed rcs for slime 23:10:10 btw, http://fuhm.net/software/sbcl-eh-frame/ is my experiment from a year-and-a-half ago. 23:10:16 the stupidity of the loss makes me so annoyed that I don't want to write the function again :( 23:10:17 raRaRa: go read PCL 23:10:18 raRaRa, that's like an intro to intro lisp question 23:10:22 -!- mvilleneuve [n=matthieu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:37 foom: Yes, found that again about fifteen minutes ago. 23:10:52 oh, okay. :) 23:10:57 I found it again 2 minutes ago 23:11:25 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.249.241] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:11:57 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-204-206.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 23:13:40 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-241-208.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 23:14:28 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:15:29 ... You know, even if it only works for alien code, teaching the debugger about dwarf info could be helpful. 23:15:30 <_death> tcr: I use the mirror on github.com 23:16:22 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@142.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:17:39 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 23:18:43 _death: My problem is I haven't yet invested sufficient time in learning git. 23:19:30 <_death> tcr: basic operation can be learned rather quickly, especially when you find out about "git gui" 23:19:37 nyef: I wonder if it might work to mark the entire sbcl heap with static unwind info saying it has a frame pointer, and then using the glibc backtrace mechanism. 23:20:08 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:20:16 that might at least solve the backtrace through alien code issue with a minimum of effort 23:20:22 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 23:20:30 At that point, I'd rather see us storing debug-funs in dwarf format. 23:20:33 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:20:37 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [Client Quit] 23:21:16 Registering each function runs you into the dynamic registration issue. 23:21:31 drafael1 [n=tapio@ip-118-90-141-192.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:21:53 registering the entire heap memory range as using FP doesn't have any of that complication 23:22:17 True, but it'd only work for backtrace. 23:22:26 I want unwind as well. 23:22:36 <_death> tcr: there are also git modes for emacs.. 23:22:41 (and can be done once at startup time without modifying anything else.) But yes, I 100% agree 23:24:03 And even if we disagree about the semantics of unwind, can we at least agree that having -some- level of interop is a good thing? 23:26:05 yes 23:26:13 I would love to have this implemented 23:26:48 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:51 X-Scale2 [n=email@89-180-79-242.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 23:31:03 -!- save-lisp-n-die [n=franco@91.176.138.246] has quit [] 23:33:39 aplmaus [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:22 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:36:30 -!- oswalda [n=dan@94-193-7-241.zone7.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 23:36:40 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 23:36:40 -!- drafael [n=tapio@ip-118-90-130-175.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:45 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 23:37:06 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:37:11 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@network-65-167-67-54.doubleclick.net] has quit [] 23:37:40 Okay, I can do unwind-find-fde fairly easily... That's a good start. 23:38:51 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 23:39:45 Also, I think SBCL doesn't move code anymore, right? 23:39:50 -!- djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:39:56 That I'm not sure of. 23:40:09 djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:40:18 Even just the reliable backtrace thing would be a win, though, right? 23:40:36 Yeah, that'd be really spiffy. 23:44:09 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:46:51 If the variable s has the variables X-POS and Y-POS, could I do (print s-X-POS) ? 23:46:52 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:46:56 Or would I have to do something specific 23:47:35 raRaRa: go away 23:47:37 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89-180-49-14.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:47:58 foom: code still moves afaik 23:48:37 it's just not allocated on the same page as other data anymore 23:48:58 sykopomp: That's not an answer! 23:50:16 raRaRa: yes. It is. Go away. You got your answer much earlier. 23:50:30 Yet you insist on asking stupid questions, and refuse to actually find a source that will answer them. 23:51:03 I am not your tutor, and I doubt anyone else in this channel wants to be, although we can arrange something if you want to fork over $20/h for a session or two. 23:51:14 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-231-10.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 23:51:33 minion: please tell rarara about pcl 23:51:34 rarara: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 23:51:36 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 23:51:47 raRaRa: read that book. if you're going to use lisp, learn lisp. 23:52:14 I would love to, but this is just an one assignment thrown at us out of the blue, and I'm desperate to ask in here for this and that quickies. 23:53:05 raRaRa: Much less will I do your homework for you. 23:53:07 jsnell: right, yes, I had forgotten: That was a "possible next steps" in Nikodemus' commit, not a already-done. 23:53:31 sykopomp: Well, depends on how you look at it, whether you're solving an assignment or helping with a simple problem. 23:53:50 raRaRa: I'm looking at it as answering your homework questions. 23:53:56 Either way, this discussion has gone way above the bounds of time. 23:54:46 ginkgo [n=user@chello084113198244.17.14.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:55:46 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C9F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:56:16 homoioi [n=zc155789@nat/sun/x-6be881464f776e7b] has joined #lisp 23:59:02 -!- djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:59:31 aundro__ [n=aundro@61.135-136-217.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp