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[n=syamajal@140.232.177.71] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:29:13 drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:29:38 Beket [n=stathis@ppp118-76.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 02:29:44 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:32:16 *technik* registers for ilc... 02:32:40 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:31 anyone know what time the tutorials start on Weds? 02:33:35 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-71-165-20-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:41:28 -!- `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.31.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:41 trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-236-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:15 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:47:04 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:48:43 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:50:31 -!- voidpointer [n=voidpoin@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has quit [":~~~"] 02:52:08 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:52:28 -!- jollygood_ [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-35-120.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:59:57 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-246-235.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:03:16 Good morning. 03:04:43 MinK 03:05:00 schoppenhauer: ? 03:05:11 good morning 03:05:39 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A060F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:07:58 Hello beach. 03:08:35 good evening 03:10:08 blowery [n=blowery@cpe-72-228-38-92.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:42 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:12:52 what did I miss? 03:13:57 The possibility of a memory leak with the error trap path on SBCL on darwin. 03:14:00 Other than that, not sure. 03:15:23 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[n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:53:40 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:53:43 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:02:29 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:03:33 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:00 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:04:13 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-117-19.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:25 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-117-19.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:05:31 Does anyone feel competent to answer the message from Patrice wrt the McCLIM OpenGL backend? 04:08:53 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:09:27 Soulman__ [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 04:10:06 mowars [n=mowars@unaffiliated/monadwr] has joined #lisp 04:10:27 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-21-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:31 What's the point of of ELT 04:10:47 nowars: To fetch elements from sequences. 04:11:00 What's the point of of NTH 04:11:24 To fetch the nth element of a list ... 04:11:30 Why not read the documentation? 04:11:47 mowars: some functions in Common Lisp exist for reasons of backward compatibility. 04:12:05 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:12:05 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:12:05 -!- hefner [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:12:05 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-21-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:12:05 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:12:05 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:12:05 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:12:05 -!- bob_f [n=bob@mail.phgroup.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:12:05 -!- EvanR [n=evan@adsl-156-67-240.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:12:05 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:12:05 -!- flazz [n=franco@qubes.org] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:12:05 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:12:05 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 04:12:06 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:09 But, in this case, they do different things. 04:12:21 indeed 04:13:04 thanks. 04:13:29 hefner [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 04:13:38 EvanR [n=evan@adsl-156-67-240.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:39 I sort of had the impression that NTH could provide the same functionality, as ELT. 04:13:43 kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has joined #lisp 04:13:51 bob_f [n=bob@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 04:13:56 elt does not operate on circular lists. nth does not operate on vectors. 04:14:09 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:14:18 A lot of these differentiations exist for optimization purposes. 04:14:23 flazz [n=franco@qubes.org] has joined #lisp 04:14:33 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has joined #lisp 04:14:49 You could have a generic Xth operator which operated on anything vaguely sequency, but then it would need to handle every case. 04:15:01 beach: I was hoping moore would appear out of nowhere and answer him 04:15:02 In days of yore that was a bit more expensive than it is today, so ... 04:15:30 ... ELT doesn't operate on circular lists? 04:15:41 Nah, they're not proper. 04:15:59 Okay, it's not -defined- to work on circular lists, but that doesn't mean it doesn't. 04:16:09 Ok, you might have difficulty finding one that doesn't, but ... :) 04:16:32 That'd be both amusing and slow. 04:16:44 beach: are you sts? 04:17:12 hefner: I doubt that will happen. 04:17:32 mowars: "sts"? 04:17:54 beach: see pm. 04:18:11 mowars: oh, no I am not. 04:18:12 beach: okay. I don't know anything about it, other than it being working and not maintained for six years 04:19:10 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:19:18 beach: ah, okay -- thanks. 04:19:47 karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has joined #lisp 04:20:34 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:21:11 hefner: OK, I'll answer him that moore33 is the probably the only one that knows anything. 04:22:35 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 04:23:54 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 04:24:17 There, that takes care of processing all the email that arrived during the night. 04:24:33 avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:37 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 04:27:37 evenin' beach 04:28:45 -!- drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:28:55 drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 04:29:39 beach: I don't, but it would be nice if there were a good tutorial on building mcclim/opengl apps 04:29:50 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:30:04 (I can imagine such a thing for the 3d molecule viewer that would go along with chemicl-draw) 04:30:05 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:31:23 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:31:29 montague [n=montague@unaffiliated/montague] has joined #lisp 04:31:34 hello lispers 04:31:40 hello 04:31:43 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@cpe-75-81-198-192.we.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:32:06 i want to learn lisp :) but i have very very little programming knowledge. i did very little c and i know basics of c. is lisp the language for me? 04:32:19 montague: of course. 04:32:22 im no good with math but i looked at some of the topics on the practical common lisp book and said "wow" 04:32:28 Can't rightly say. 04:32:34 minion: please tell montague about gentle 04:32:34 montague: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 04:32:40 Max: The less you know about C, probably the better. 04:32:55 so practical common lisp is bad? 04:33:01 C does less brain damage than Basic. 04:33:03 No, it's good. 04:33:07 montague: That book is fairly nice for relative newbies to programming, PCL is fantastic if you can actually keep up with what it's talking about. 04:33:30 PCL is fantastic. Try reading that one first, and if you're confused about the concepts, read Gentle Intro. 04:33:30 so its difficult for noobs? 04:33:38 ok 04:33:44 to programming, not to lisp. 04:34:03 gentle into to programming? 04:34:04 where can i find it 04:34:15 look at the link 04:34:16 See the link above. 04:34:21 Snap! 04:34:25 oh thanks 04:34:31 Buganini [n=buganini@140.122.126.12] has joined #lisp 04:34:34 so i can read pcl after thsi one? 04:34:38 "# 04:34:39 # Practical: A Spam Filter" 04:34:41 i want to do things like that 04:35:05 "Practical: An MP3 Browser" 04:35:06 etc 04:35:11 you can read PCL already, it's a pretty easy book unless you're completely unfamiliar with programming. 04:35:24 i read k&r for c programming 04:35:42 i could do some exercises. i know enough c to do basic things 04:35:51 It's less dense than K&R. 04:36:08 I find in PCL, the presentation feels somewhat Java flavored. 04:36:26 But the author comes from a long stint of Java programming. 04:36:55 ok ill read gentle first 04:36:57 thanks so much 04:37:03 ill go now 04:37:05 -!- montague [n=montague@unaffiliated/montague] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:38:30 Rats! Should have gotten an idea about his platform. Might have suggested an implementation for learn on. 04:40:24 most programming tend to lean towards unixes. 04:40:41 s/programming/programmers 04:41:07 parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:41 mowars: what is this based on? 04:42:39 sykopomp: I'm assuming that most programmers, tend to lean towards the various unixes. 04:42:56 it's purely based on assumption 04:43:14 Ah. 04:43:14 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:43:17 mowars: Some of us are led by circumstance to oscillate between unixes and windows. 04:43:54 It's a good question. Certainly for starting to play around,. you're more likely to get a decent toolset with the various free UNIX-ish systems. 04:43:56 and considering the vast marketshare (and appshare) of windows, including in industry, I find that quite doubtful. 04:44:07 nyef: still makes the assumption half valid. 04:44:17 Ah, but is it the left half or the right half? 04:44:26 nyef: the left! left! 04:44:37 I wonder how many folk would continue to program for Windows if it didn't pay. 04:44:38 nyef: that depends on if you're looking leftward, or rightward. 04:46:45 it pays? 04:47:15 I think I would need serious money to deal with the Windows API. 04:48:02 or serious drugs. 04:48:12 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:49:09 Incidently, I'm categorizing Mac OS X as a UNIX. 04:49:12 There was one period where the only thing that helped me with the pain of dealing with the windows API was to drown it out with the pain of x86 assembly language... 04:49:44 caoliver: well it does conform to the SUS. 04:49:53 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CD46.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:49:54 I rarely see x86 assy unless I call #'disassemble. 04:49:58 s/SUS/SuS 04:52:03 I really do wish that of the 16bit CISC chips, the 68K had won rather than Intel. At least it had a bearable register file. 04:52:08 I'll argue (incoherently) that windows users, however numerous and devoted, simply don't count 04:52:38 And I'll gullibly agree. :-D 04:58:50 -!- trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-236-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:59:20 Okay, time I pretended to get some sleep. 04:59:23 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-57-86.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 04:59:40 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0CD46.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:21 sleep is such a bother. 05:01:50 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CD46.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:05:38 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp118-76.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:06:48 Beket [n=stathis@ppp118-76.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 05:07:18 caoliver: You should check MIPS ISA. It has one of the most clean and well organized instruction sets I've dealt with. 05:07:50 I don't think the MIPS really qualifies as a 16-bit CISC architecture... 05:08:07 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:08:26 It sure doesn't. 05:09:08 It's more like microcode exposed to the programmer. 05:10:26 if that were really true, your canonical textbook MIPS wouldn't need a control unit and a bunch of mess to control the pipeline 05:12:08 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CD46.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:13:40 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp118-76.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:14:41 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:16:07 caoliver: define 16bit - are we talking address range or register size? 05:16:40 cause I recall 68k being a 32bit processor which in depending on version read only 16, 24 or full 32bits of a pointer 05:18:01 *caoliver* puts on his dunce cap again! 05:18:05 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:18:51 And I hacked on an Amiga enough that I should have that permanently tatooed on my brain. 05:20:36 segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1D60F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:53 whats the most popular gc technique for common lisp implementations 05:21:24 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:27 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 05:21:51 caoliver: Well, if not for P6 and certain stupid decisions by various CEOs, we probably wouldn't be using x86 now (nor x86-64) 05:22:21 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1CD4E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:22:40 -!- vsync [n=vsync@220-27.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:23:00 [Sigh!] 05:23:29 I'll be worm food before the human race sees the last of the horrid X86 ISA. 05:23:33 x86-64 is damn fine. Stop whining. 05:23:38 *hefner* has never met an assembly language he didn't like 05:23:49 (not that I've met that many..) 05:23:54 pkhuong: I didn't say it's bad 05:24:07 I want more registers. 05:24:31 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:24:37 caoliver: 256 registers per register window is enough? 05:24:39 you can have 40. 05:25:28 Why do I keep seeing stupid things like EBX and friends on an SBCL #' disassemble. 05:25:30 ? 05:26:10 caoliver: because those are traditional names for certain registers? It actually makes sense instead of r0, r1, r2 etc. 05:26:14 caoliver: probably because it's what the instruction encodes. 05:26:24 Backwards compat means you basically are using a register architecture that dates back to the 8008. 05:26:54 I like r1, r2, ... 05:27:00 caoliver: that's the idea :) x86 became just a layer of compatibility 05:27:01 caoliver: If you want _lots_ of registers, implement MMIX in hw 05:27:02 r0 for the win 05:27:20 who starts counting at 1 05:27:29 who needs registers when you have a zero page mode? 05:27:32 Ok R0 05:27:40 hefner: 6502? :) 05:29:55 Unfortunately that old x86 compatibility layer is what we see for the most part even if the guts are nice. When do we get to toos out the rotting vegetables? 05:30:24 caoliver: when heel freezes over? 05:30:25 *hell 05:30:33 That's sad. 05:30:38 *EvanR* tooses caoliver into heel 05:31:09 caoliver: AMD once introduced a cpu with user-mode switchable ISA. No one used RISC ISA 05:31:14 caoliver: is it? you'd prefer something sophisticated and modern like ia64, perhaps? 05:32:03 caoliver: Anyway, find people willing to implement MMIX in hw, you'll have a clean arch with _lots_ of registers 05:32:35 Which is not on the market. Trouble is the war is over. Nice ISA lost. 05:33:29 in terms of numbers and excluding microcontrollers, ARM is probably the most common ISA 05:35:00 I've never looked into ARM. I'm likely to be hacking some Atmel stuff in the not distant future. 05:35:11 However I'm not thinging of controllers. 05:35:16 s/thing/think/ 05:36:02 ARM is so common because of all those mobile devices :) Other small appliances usually use PPC or MIPS, with MIPS featuring prominently in internal processing of many chips 05:36:08 I never got to look at IA64, so I've no idea how it'd be voding assy for it. 05:36:29 broadcom wifi cards have something like 4 MIPS cores inside 05:36:32 Funky. I remember MIPS mains as an SGI workstation processor. 05:37:15 caoliver: The most deployed performance version of MIPS was Playstation 1&2 :) 05:37:22 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 05:37:32 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.17] has joined #lisp 05:37:42 Nintendo 64 had two MIPS R4000 cores too 05:37:43 caoliver: it's hard enough to even compile for IA64; nobody would think of doing it by hand, I think. 05:38:05 pkhuong: Believe me or not, I lately read someone praising IA64 _including_ assembler 05:38:25 p_l: I'm sure he got awesome W/performance. 05:38:44 it sounds like fun to me 05:38:58 pkhuong: Well, I'm pretty sure he couldn't rival another person on the same mailing list, who was working on BG/L :) 05:40:56 rotzak [n=rotzak@c-98-232-168-153.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:12 Anyone know where there's a good CLisp reference around the net? I've been a few years since I've written any list... 05:41:16 anyway, MMIX seems nice, though I'm not sure how it would play with languages that rely on stack 05:41:29 rotzak: i saw one 05:42:30 rotzak: http://clqr.berlios.de/ 05:42:40 ahh, I think I've seen this before... 05:42:48 yes, nice! Thanks mate :) 05:43:12 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:44:40 caoliver: It should be also relatively easy to implement MMIX in FPGA. Though you have to set aside space for 512 registers :) 05:44:46 I guess this was the last tipping point for wintel back in 1991 -> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advanced_Computing_Environment 05:46:04 NorthStar: Why not Alpha? (or PowerPC?) Both even had Windows running on it, with alpha having pretty good speed at running x86 apps AFAIK 05:48:46 The intel platform was *good enough* and it caught up pretty quickly, integrating some of the RISC ideas into its designs. Intel is like the borgs: assimilate and expand. 05:48:53 Why not Alpha indeed. The main beef I had with X86, and this may have been remedied and none too soon, is that the different registers had different capabilities. 05:49:23 They still do. 05:49:28 Ugly. 05:49:30 caoliver: I guess Compaq didn't want to bite the hand that fed it 05:49:42 All registers should be equipotent. 05:50:02 Maybe with the exception of the PC and SP. Even the PDP-11 got this right. 05:50:19 caoliver: Seriously, try getting MMIX into hw. If you get HyperTransport connection, you could even reuse lots of existing architecture 05:52:04 512 general purpose registers with ~224 registers available in a window. Floating point operations simply using two registers to store one value 05:53:42 I just wonder what will happen to all those interesting ideas the Transmeta guys developed. 05:54:46 They'll probably be hoarded in a patent dragon's lair for the next decade and a half until the patents all expire. 05:54:48 NorthStar: The core of it was basically what x86 is since the days of K5 and P6 (though P6 and later AMD designs incorporate some basic x86 instructions into core) 05:56:00 NorthStar: Also, who owns DECs x86->Alpha rewriter? It was pretty darn good, much better than builtin NT4 emulator and ran at rather good speeds 05:56:29 DEC also seemed not to have too many problems with changing ISAs 05:57:31 Look at VMS - big deal of it is still written in VAX assembly, even when it runs on IA64 05:58:38 I guess we'll see a modern ISA in common application computer about the same time Genera gets OpenSourced. 05:59:10 adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 05:59:48 we might get it faster than you think 06:00:04 on your smart phone 06:00:15 Which? 06:00:19 x86-64 itself is getting "weirder", with vector units attached to CPUs 06:00:59 or to be exact, with vector cpus attached directly to the rest of PC, the same way as the x86 units 06:02:23 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:04:07 also, the company that manages to get a new, fast ISA on market that will run windows and provide compatibility for old apps (soft. rewriter?) could still be able to change. Assuming of course that for once, intel plays fair 06:04:59 p_l: and how would that company achieve more than AMD or Intel? 06:05:58 pkhuong: If a change in ISA would allow for better CPUs, then maybe. If not, why bother. 06:06:55 I expect bigger changes to come from change in tools used to make ICs 06:07:11 And reconfigurable computing. 06:07:12 p_l: You'd have a new ISA that allows a better execution of the x86[-64] ISA. That'd be an interesting beast. 06:08:00 pkhuong: I mean a situation where new apps would be compiled for the new ISA, while old would be rewritten automatically to use native ISA 06:08:33 good luck with that business plan 06:09:14 jsnell: I don't see it working :-) (at least not unless I have nanofabs and competition doesn't which is not likely to happen) 06:09:32 if you want exciting new and efficient ISAs, just wait for moore's law to run its course first 06:10:23 -!- NorthStar [i=email@89-180-98-111.net.novis.pt] has left #lisp 06:10:33 That's the problem. People don't improve things until it's painful for them not to. 06:10:52 caoliver: you mean, people with power to make decisions tend to make rational ones? 06:11:30 Not quite. Sometimes acting early provents a longer term pain. 06:11:49 But I forget that "in the long run, we're dead." 06:11:53 hefner: well, we are already nearing problems with x86 not being prepared for current architectures. Still, it's not painful enough to change. I'm not going to play with trying to change "PC market" ISA. Not my cup of tea 06:12:06 caoliver: long-term planning is passe ;-) 06:12:10 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:13:00 So for the forseeable future, PCs will remain crud. 06:13:07 Too damn bad. 06:14:01 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087F6FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:14:41 stick with your amiga, then. it won't do you wrong. 06:14:48 it turns out that x86 is a pretty good architecture for modern computing 06:14:59 high code density, a programmer friendly memory model 06:15:03 caoliver: For "really damn interesting" applications I'm not thinking of using PCs. And if an ARM with FPU wasn't such a red herring, I'd probably employ more ARM cpus in my plans. The only thing I need PC for is gaming :) 06:15:10 I'm on a Linux PC at the moment. 06:15:58 Damn imteresting means super computers. I'm more thinking along the lines of Alan Kay's vision of the personal computer. 06:16:08 jsnell: Pity that memory model is growing distant from what actually is used underneath 06:16:08 s/imter/inter/ 06:17:00 caoliver: if by supercomputer you mean that 100GHz parallel beast mounted on combat plane ;-) <--- what's lately on my mind since learning of superconducting CPUs 06:17:48 it would be probably the end for stealth planes, though 06:18:26 yeah89891 [n=angie@189.202.45.120.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 06:19:20 I hope our race getws to a point where it can apply its brains to better things that discovering superior way to kill each other. 06:19:39 WE're good enogh at that already. 06:19:44 caoliver: the same technology allows for superior weather monitoring 06:20:03 I suppose, but that isn't sexy enough to get funding. 06:20:54 Sorry. I do tend to have a misanthropic bent given the trajectory of humanity for the most part. 06:20:56 caoliver: Well, weather monitoring certainly sounds less sexy than "be able to target every stealth plane unless USA learns how to phase them out of this dimension" 06:22:33 ##politics or more lisp. 06:22:42 minion: chant 06:22:43 MORE LISP 06:22:43 I prefer lisp. 06:23:27 *p_l* hides his futurologist&s-f writer personalities back into closet 06:24:19 It drifted, 'cos I was thinking how nice it would be to see more LispM-ish Smalltalk-ish PCs rather than UNIX/Windows PCs. 06:24:38 Will (eval-when (:execute) form) iff the program is executing? (and not at macro-expansion nor compile-time?) 06:25:15 This sentence no verb. 06:25:41 I accidentally the whole s-expression. 06:26:44 "We've secretly run sed on their grammar substituting random strings. Will they notice." 06:27:06 ? 06:27:44 Add the werb "execute form" between ) and iff. 06:27:51 well, the two words. anyway. 06:28:25 (I don't know the answer, unfortunately --- I defer to greater experience) 06:29:04 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087F6FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:30:15 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:32:28 tic: could you give some example? I was trying to check it up on SBCL and ECL, but I didn't come to any conclusive results 06:36:59 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_bca.htm <-- doesn't really bring additional light on it or I simply can't comprehend it 06:38:36 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.171.149] has joined #lisp 06:38:42 p_l, using shadowed CL versions of functions at runtime, but print the equivalent Python statement at execute time. 06:40:58 -!- H4ns2 is now known as H4ns 06:45:53 trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-236-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:55 I guess it's too high for me >_> 06:47:21 Hang a sec. I'm crufting an example. 06:47:43 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 06:47:58 -!- mowars [n=mowars@unaffiliated/monadwr] has left #lisp 06:48:17 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:18 -!- yeah89891 [n=angie@189.202.45.120.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:50:42 caoliver, nice, thanks! I'm heading out now, so I'll check back within half an hour or so. 06:53:27 I'm done. 06:53:37 oh. paste.lis? 06:54:02 caoliver pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74965 06:54:36 You should be able to try this out with any lisp supporting #'compile-file 06:54:39 . 06:56:48 caoliver, excellent, thanks! 06:58:31 You should see one message on compile, another on load, and another on execution of foo. 06:59:00 adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 06:59:05 -!- rotzak [n=rotzak@c-98-232-168-153.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:59:16 Interesting is that you get a different message on load depending on whether you load the lisp source or the compiled fasl. 07:01:18 compile-time, load-time and execution-time are three different environments after all 07:01:56 And eval-when sees loading of a source as the execution environment. ;-) 07:02:24 mowars [n=mowars@unaffiliated/monadwr] has joined #lisp 07:02:26 caoliver: Depends on implementation, I guess 07:02:55 What impl are you running? I'm trying this on SBCL and ECL. 07:03:10 caoliver: I have only clisp, SBCL and ECL at hand 07:03:41 I don't have clisp on board. I understand it's slow and funky. 07:03:42 -!- blowery [n=blowery@cpe-72-228-38-92.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [] 07:03:43 sufficiently worked up I might get MACLISP to working state, but I doubt it would run this example 07:04:16 Is the maclisp source out there somewhere? 07:04:39 caoliver: Yes, as well as the whole ITS (and some private files, it seems) 07:05:13 well, more like "whatever parts of code that are of importance were lying in users directories" 07:05:39 just don't be surprised when you have trouble editing files from inside emulator 07:06:01 Sort of like getting a camera from a secondhand store, and you find there's still film loaded. 07:06:38 I'd sort of figure that terminal editing emulation might be a touch wonky. 07:06:53 caoliver: and finding that all buttons look the same, have no labels, and manual is long lost 07:07:04 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 07:07:27 and the only thing you remember is that "typing your name in" is fun unless it starts with D, when catastrophic things happen 07:08:19 Some ITS hacker had a grudge agains someone with D as the first letter of his identifier? 07:08:31 s/agains/against/ 07:09:17 caoliver: No, D was for "deletion" in TECO :> 07:09:53 Ah. You mean the old game of feeding your name to teco to see what is does? 07:09:57 yeah 07:10:43 I do wonder if OG will ever get reoeased to the public domain? 07:11:03 I left my typing fingers at the bar. 07:11:17 darwin [n=peddie@18.224.1.240] has joined #lisp 07:11:40 just remember that TECO on ITS is the MIT TECO, not the sanitized version available for most other OSes... and that the last time anyone seen the manual was in '80s somewhere in MIT (that's where INFO command will point you to) 07:12:01 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@140.122.126.12] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:12:33 Ah. Pointing fingers at dust where there was formerly useful information. 07:13:37 more like the INFO states "go to corridor X in building Y and printed copy of TECO manual should be lying around there" except that the last ITS machine was switched of in 1990 07:13:42 The only teco I've seen was a sanitized version unser RSTS/E when I was much younger. 07:14:16 s/unser/under/' 07:14:45 caoliver: You actually got to work on those machines? I envy you 07:15:09 Don't. The sysadmin was a real pain in the butt. 07:16:03 caoliver: I doubt he managed to be as big of a PITA as masses without a clue about computers who seem to always ask stupid question about their wintels 07:16:07 I was in high school at the time, and the local college where my dad taught had a pdp-11/70 and 34, so I got to tinker. 07:16:21 Agree. 07:17:00 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 07:17:12 and mind you, this comes from someone who lately gets to like Windows more and more 07:18:03 As long as I don't have to support it.;-) 07:18:47 *p_l* will probably have to in near future. And it still will be better than working in hotel, i think 07:19:16 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:19:18 Actually, my only wintel question is about inexpensie laptops that have VT not disabled in BIOS. 07:19:53 *p_l* doesn't have VT and is very angry because of that 07:20:36 I have it on my desktops, but running qemu on the laptop is veeeerrrryyyy slloooooooow! 07:21:09 heh. In my case, it happened because university decided to save money on CPUs 07:21:36 Toshi has a p8400 based lap, but I've no idea if they shut off VMX in bios or not. 07:21:45 while at the same time giving us hdds with military-grade encryption 07:22:02 How...... useful. [snort] 07:22:19 mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-135.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:27 -!- bhz- [n=resm@cpc2-roch4-0-0-cust792.manc.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:22:43 caoliver: Also, shouldn't you be able to override BIOS disabling of VMX? 07:23:17 Call me cowardly, but I'm not brave enough to patch a BIOS. 07:23:57 seems easier than correcting what seems to be effect of a bribery (disabling of all more powerful power saving capabilities if the cpu is dual core) 07:23:57 I'm assuming they might not provide it as a BIOS menu option. I've not seen one of these in the flesh or I'd know. 07:24:00 caoliver: coward 07:24:20 THanks! 07:24:58 caoliver: Also, the fix my happen to be as easy modifying an ACPI table - read the docs for the CPU, you'll get info on how to do it 07:25:28 Unless you also got Vpro-or-whatever-it's-called and locked down access :> 07:26:00 Maybe. I think that VMX disable is one way upto hard reset. 07:27:04 caoliver: certainly seems easier to get done than reintroducing C1E, C2 and C3 when BIOS removes support for it 07:27:38 -!- trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-236-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:28:11 Yeah. If I were brave, it's probably just putting in some judicious noops, but it's easy to flash something into being a doorstop. 07:28:25 Hence my cowardice. 07:29:11 caoliver: you might be able to override it after BIOS has run 07:30:08 eevar [n=snuffpup@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:30:17 AFAIK it was possible to recover C1 and C2 on AMD multicore laptops without patching BIOS (C1E and C3 were a different beast...) 07:30:19 I seem to recall shutting down VMX requires physical reset to get back. Just an OS reboot left the menu item on my ASUS MB greyed out. 07:30:44 hmm... interesting 07:30:53 -!- darwin [n=peddie@18.224.1.240] has left #lisp 07:31:37 I'm interested in your school's CPU thing. What did they get? What were they supposed to get? 07:31:44 T5550 07:31:59 That's what I'm typing on now. 07:32:28 Toshi A305-Sfoobar with a T5550. 07:33:16 Lenovo's R61i, T5550, 1G ram in one module, 160GB Seagate Momentus FDE, intel 965 w/X3100 as graphic card, 15,4" LCD and stripped down (no N) iwl4965 07:34:17 good thing we got DVD-RAM with that 07:34:18 That's the other wart. This thing has an ATI, so X needs a blob from ATI to run.' 07:34:38 caoliver: Which model? 07:34:53 Xorg has some driver, but the fan keeps going full blast with that. 07:35:04 Mod Rad 3470. 07:35:20 hmmm... I thought 3xxx are better supported 07:35:26 I meant moB rad 07:36:28 Since I just run an X server, the Intel stuff does fine for me. 07:36:41 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 07:38:18 Hello 07:38:59 If you tell me your first name is "Hyper," I'll have to shoot you. 07:39:16 thom_ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:11 dwave [n=ask@212251217238.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 07:41:27 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:41:57 Lain [n=Lain@c-71-224-213-131.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:42:36 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:42:53 hi again. 07:44:07 Hello. 07:44:58 It's 02:44 here, I'm going to have to knock off. 07:45:55 good night, and thanks for the help 07:46:07 Glad things made some sense. 07:46:19 -!- caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has left #lisp 07:46:54 kinkajou [n=lars@c-24-23-251-141.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:15 -!- eevar_ [n=snuffpup@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:47:17 sykopomp pasted ":before and :after" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74966 07:50:38 szergling [n=tyc20@125-236-135-147.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 07:51:43 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 07:51:51 -!- Lain [n=Lain@c-71-224-213-131.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:55:14 mvilleneuve [n=matthieu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:17 good morning 07:56:01 morning mvilleneuve 07:56:16 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:58:52 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 08:00:04 -!- joha1 [n=johan@fw1.ngigroup.com] has left #lisp 08:01:02 Good evening over here. 08:01:28 good morning 08:02:30 mornin 08:02:35 Question about Lisp ratios: if I enter an expression like chum:~$ ssh-panix.sh 08:02:35 evenson@panix3.panix.com's password: 08:02:35 Permission denied, please try again. 08:02:35 evenson@panix3.panix.com's password: 08:02:36 Last login: Thu Feb 5 03:26:20 2009 from 213.225.2.195 08:02:38 sykopomp pasted ":before and :after" at 08:02:40 +http://paste.lisp.org/display/74966 08:02:42 *** szergling 08:02:44 +(n=tyc20@125-236-135-147.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz) has joined 08:02:46 +channel #lisp 08:02:48 *** workthrick (n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk) has joined channel 08:02:50 +#lisp 08:02:50 uhhh 08:02:52 *** Lain has left channel #Lisp 08:02:54 *** mvilleneuve (n=matthieu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net) has joined 08:02:56 +channel #lisp 08:02:58 good morning 08:03:00 morning mvilleneuve 08:03:02 *** ecraven (n=nex@140.78.42.103) has joined channel #lisp 08:03:04 *** Signoff: Akkie (Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)) 08:03:06 *** stassats (n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats) has joined channel #lisp 08:03:08 *** iand (n=iand@5adb1345.bb.sky.com) has joined channel #swig 08:03:10 *** joha1 has left channel #lisp 08:03:12 e271: quit the channel 08:03:12 *** FabGandon (n=fgandon@fasty.inria.fr) has joined channel #swig 08:03:14 Good evening over here. 08:03:16 good morning 08:03:18 *** You are now talking to channel #lisp 08:03:20 mornin 08:03:22 [1] 03:02 e271 on #lisp (+cnt) * type /help for help 08:03:30 Question about Lisp ratios: if I enter an expression like (/ (- (expt 2 36767) 1) 127), and I get a ratio back. 08:03:30 Sorry about that: cut n' paste failure. 08:03:54 (coerce 1/2 'float) 08:04:04 If I get a ratio does that guarantee that the represented number is not an integer? 08:04:08 that's one way to get our attention I guess. 08:04:14 My apologies. 08:04:17 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:04:59 Or on such a bignum like 2^36767 - 1, does CL just "punt" rather than trying the long division? 08:05:54 i don't quite get you 08:06:28 Let me try to restate then. 08:06:30 clhs: rationalize 08:06:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ration.htm 08:06:33 <_death> "Interestingly lisp has this problem. It uses closures very heavily as it is a minimal language which needs closures to implement imperative statements (conditionals and loops)." -- Just one of the plethora dumb remarks made in Martin Fowler's upcoming book. 08:06:53 Let me read that part of CLHS for a sec. 08:07:15 Hmm, how did he manage to come to that conclusion? 08:07:49 <_death> maybe he wrote a Scheme interpreter for a univ. course 08:07:58 He studied Hedgehog Lisp. 08:08:18 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 08:08:34 kwertii_ [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:04 e271: ratio cannot be represented as an integer equivalently, and how implentation comes to the answer is up to implementor 08:09:12 hm, no, no closures in Hedgehog. It must have been the univ. course 08:09:22 I retract my question as not very well researched on my end. Thanks for the help. 08:11:34 <_death> I mean that sentence has like a zillion errors in it 08:11:44 mega1 [n=mega@53d83429.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:12:24 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 08:12:31 it's like a russian doll made of errors, really. you can actually _feel_ recursion while trying to make sense of it 08:14:10 oh wow. I actually have one of Fowler's books. 08:14:21 perhaps I should not admit that in public. 08:14:49 <_death> http://www.martinfowler.com/dslwip/InternalOverview.html for those who want to be appalled, also try and make sense out of the Macros section 08:16:27 thanks. I guess :) 08:17:08 addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 08:17:17 Wow. the macros section is amazing. 08:18:00 <_death> granted, it's WIP.. but I guess you can call me a pessimist on this one 08:19:07 -!- dwave [n=ask@212251217238.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 08:22:10 <_death> "Much though I love to be a contrarian, I do [... have book to write, about wheels, and consequently ...] support that view, as such I'm wary of using macros." 08:22:30 -!- kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:23:15 Martin Fowler.. yeah, he's interesting. 08:23:23 he really has no clue about Common Lisp. 08:23:48 Macros let you do code surgery. Maybe in a 100 years we can let machines perform medical operations on people. Martin Fowler is writing for the present. 08:24:30 there is a lot of people who have no clue about CL and it isn't a reason to discuss them 08:24:54 Hi all, could someone tell me about SBCL functions: how many kinds of functions are there? I get the impression that there're 2 types, tagged with sb-vm:simple-fun-header-widetag and sb-vm:closure-header-widetag. What are they, and what then is a sb-kernel:fdefn? 08:27:02 That, picked up from the swank-sbcl inspector code. 08:27:28 why do you need to know that? 08:28:23 "General knowledge", to know more of SBCL internals. But the more immediate aim is to look into closure/function serialisation. Yes, I know about sb-heapdump. 08:28:52 I don't need to dump everything. Just a closure + environments, for example. 08:30:13 I've looked into Paul Khuong's Common Cold too. That builds serialisable closures, but I was hoping to serialise any closure... 08:30:29 i thought closure already contains environment 08:30:38 Yeah, that's what I meant. 08:30:53 A closure and its environments. 08:31:10 Uhh, that still doesn't sound right. You know what I mean. 08:37:22 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 08:38:39 benny` [n=benny@i577A0C5C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:40:44 eevar2 [n=jalla@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:42:28 -!- kwertii_ [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["bye"] 08:43:07 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 08:45:49 -!- mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-135.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:46:07 -!- ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:46:33 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:11 -!- benny` is now known as benny 08:50:10 -!- _jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:50:33 adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has joined #lisp 08:50:55 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-79.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 08:51:11 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:57:00 <_8david> hmm, when Marco Antoniotti writes "LWM", what could that mean? LispWorks? 08:57:22 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:58:33 lispworks for mac? 08:58:38 http://www.lispworks.com/products/lwm.html 09:00:12 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 09:01:06 eevar2 [n=jalla@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:03:11 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 09:05:00 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:05:32 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:06:15 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 09:08:43 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:09:49 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-140-211.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:10:37 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:14:37 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:14:59 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 09:19:56 minion: memo for ayrnieu: perhaps you could join us in the XXI century now? http://www.engadget.com/2006/05/19/robot-surgeon-performs-worlds-first-unassisted-operation/ 09:19:57 Remembered. I'll tell ayrnieu when he/she/it next speaks. 09:24:21 kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has joined #lisp 09:24:33 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:27:08 <_8david> minion: memo for auclairb: Oh, there is a run-sbcl.sh? Didn't know that. Anyway, "clbuild compile-implementation sbcl" will compile sbcl and run install.sh to put it into clbuild/target, where "clbuild lisp" can find it. 09:27:09 Remembered. I'll tell auclairb when he/she/it next speaks. 09:27:12 -!- Jarv2 is now known as Jarvellis 09:33:26 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit ["Be back later"] 09:34:27 dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has joined #lisp 09:37:17 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:41:35 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-157-107.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 09:43:50 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-072-254.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:03 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:47:06 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:48:27 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-157-107.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:53:23 dalecooper [n=chris@62.8.158.131] has joined #lisp 09:53:55 -!- dalecooper [n=chris@62.8.158.131] has quit [Client Quit] 09:53:57 dalecooper [n=chris@62.8.158.131] has joined #lisp 09:54:15 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 09:54:35 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 09:55:37 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 09:56:14 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Client Quit] 09:56:57 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 09:58:29 _workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 09:58:31 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:59:15 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.89] has joined #lisp 10:02:26 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:43 canto [n=ogjae@p54ABD117.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:01 I wonder if it's possible to generate (x86/AMD64) machine code for Windows with lisp that is about as hard to reverse engineer as any other win program written in C. Or is this just not possible because a debugger could just hook into the memory of lisp process and read in the whole s-expression tree? 10:09:16 mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-135.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:09 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:10:48 canto: it's entirely possible. Especially since lisp calls would have slightly "different" calling conventions... and with sufficient tweaking, you could get code that wouldn't resemble anything "normal" 10:11:23 canto: also, there is no "s-expression tree" in compiled lisps unless you specifically ask for debug information. 10:11:42 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:57 canto: building something from scratch is pretty much always going to be faster and cleaner than reverse engineering your work. and legal to boot.. 10:15:03 Does that mean that compiled lisp code is not as dynamic as code written at the REPL, because compiled code could not change and extend itself using macros and such? 10:15:04 s/from scratch/based on the UI of your app 10:15:45 canto: no, it means that once your code is compiled, it no longer takes the form of an s-expression tree 10:15:59 canto: that has nothing to do with the dynamism of the language per se. 10:17:57 canto: from my experience even simple ITC is pretty hard to reverse. 10:19:02 Even though it _can_ modify itself. 10:20:32 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 10:20:53 canto: If you want it to keep modifying itself, simply don't remove the compiler (some lisps allow removing it for sake of size) 10:23:30 Yea, I remember generating compiled lisp code on linux and I ended up with a 40 mb file which would just print out one sentence :) 10:24:00 So, if I remove the compiler this size would immediately shrink down? 10:24:26 Yes. 10:24:30 Sure. 10:24:56 Can you imagine the opposite? 10:25:52 no ;) 10:26:51 canto: Well, imagine if you had half the OS compiled into the hello-world program, that's what you had ;-) 10:27:01 canto: note that the free lisps do not have good tools to shrink the run time. 10:27:37 *p_l* wonders how good ECL+LLVM combination would be in this matter 10:27:38 canto: if you absolutely need small executables, ecl is propably the best way to go. 10:28:11 canto: If you go with ECL, try to make it work with llvm 10:28:17 -!- mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-135.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:29:07 p_l: because? 10:29:46 H4ns: huge differences in speed and size compared to gcc? (in favor of llvm) 10:30:25 p_l: i guess, a beginner should choose a route that has been taken rather than try to meet someone else's research goals. 10:30:46 H4ns: LLVM-GCC gives outward appearance of gcc toolchain 10:31:16 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 10:31:17 p_l: just port ecl over, add instructions to the readme, integrate into the ecl mainline, then come again. 10:31:48 H4ns: Will do when I get some time on that (shouldn't be a lot of work) 10:32:11 p_l: right. 10:33:18 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 10:33:41 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:33:43 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:36:26 -!- addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 10:36:38 addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 10:36:58 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:00 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:37:43 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:39:23 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["c Ya"] 10:40:08 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:45:59 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has joined #lisp 10:46:19 see you in a year.. 10:49:11 p_l, do you have some numbers for a "huge difference in speed and size"? 10:50:35 -!- Jarv2 is now known as djarvelis 10:56:56 jewel: not exact numbers, but aside from "synthetic" benchmarks, my friend reported 30% speedup (without increasing binary size) on the code he was working on, just from changing compiler 10:57:25 what kind of code was it? 10:57:35 jewel: Game engine using OpenGL 10:57:41 mostly graphic stuff 10:58:22 it was graphic part of Dwarf Fortress, put into separate game (Battle Champs) so that people other than original author could submit patches (the game itself is closed source) 10:59:02 since then, Battle Champs makefile issues a warning when it doesn't find LLVM :) 10:59:46 does it do any runtime compilation? 10:59:58 jewel: It can be used for that 11:00:24 (Apple uses it in its OpenGL implementation to recompile shaders into native code if it doesn't find sufficient hw) 11:01:07 yes, that's why I ask, is any of the speedup due to some runtime compilation 11:01:14 canto, compressing it with bzip2 yields a 9-10mb or so file if you're talking about sbcl core dumps here 11:01:22 -!- mowars [n=mowars@unaffiliated/monadwr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:31 jewel: It can be done, but only when you explicitly use it this way. 11:02:03 jewel: Main speedup comes from doing optimization on the whole binary - it compiles into bytecode and does optimization after linking 11:02:19 (generating native executable in the end) 11:02:51 -!- addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 11:03:01 addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 11:04:34 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:05:05 you can of course link the LLVM library itself and use it to generate code in runtime, too 11:06:36 <_8david> let us know when you have the ecl/llvm benchmarks plz k thx 11:13:06 b 11:13:09 -!- addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 11:14:36 -!- dalecooper [n=chris@62.8.158.131] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:18:53 athos [n=philipp@p54B8767B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:26 xxxyyy [n=chatzill@58.33.178.74] has joined #lisp 11:21:55 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:31:23 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:00 dalecooper [n=chris@62.8.158.131] has joined #lisp 11:43:31 -!- dalecooper [n=chris@62.8.158.131] has quit [] 11:43:56 ecllvm :-) 11:44:36 __workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 11:45:48 Sigh, ASDF still causes pains wrt. *break-on-signals*. 11:46:00 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:46:03 -!- _workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:46:25 deepfire__: heh. at the moment, my processing power is consumed by some paid tasks with openwrt, but when it ends, llvm waits :> 11:46:36 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:47:48 -!- kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 11:49:08 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CD46.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:49:21 -!- deepfire__ is now known as deepfire 11:53:16 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:53:30 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 12:12:53 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:16:39 lakedenma [n=irchon@166.194.214.5] has joined #lisp 12:17:43 -!- sysfault [n=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:19:20 -!- lakedenma [n=irchon@166.194.214.5] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:23:13 voidpointer [n=voidpoin@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has joined #lisp 12:23:52 -!- __workthrick is now known as workthrick 12:24:41 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:08 -!- drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:26:14 lnostdal_ [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 12:29:49 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:30:27 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:31:59 -!- segv__ is now known as segv 12:32:06 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA63F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:33:45 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:39:39 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 12:41:31 blowery [n=blowery@cpe-72-228-38-92.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:10 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087F6FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:15 hmm, opera's new javascript engine is a register-based bytecode thingy 12:47:25 those are usually pretty unusual, aren't they? 12:48:52 addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 12:49:01 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-13.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:49:01 -!- lnostdal_ is now known as lnostdal 12:51:51 rsynnott: well, I heard that register based is rare thing... 12:52:13 lua uses a virtual register based VM 12:52:44 thanks to the amazing x86 architecture, i'm sure 12:52:59 8 gprs ftw 12:53:25 eevar2: not only because of that 12:53:33 8 gpr + 8 vector. or on 64-bit 16 gpr + 16 vector 12:54:00 Grilinctus [n=Aankhen@122.162.171.149] has joined #lisp 12:54:22 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:54:34 -!- blowery [n=blowery@cpe-72-228-38-92.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:55:07 I wouldn't be surprised if it has more to do with the fact that many "popular" languages are based on the concept of stack in their internals 12:55:13 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:55:22 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:55:37 it seems their existing VM is stack-based 12:55:48 so presumably there's some advantage in the switch for them 12:55:59 jollygood_ [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:57:08 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 12:57:50 stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:01 LostMonarch [n=roby@host108-177-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 12:59:05 rsynnott: I once heard this about BPF: "Why did you use stack based machine?" "Erm... they are faster?" "No, they are not" (one of the original Unix guys to Berkeley people) 12:59:38 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:35 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B8767B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 13:06:37 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.171.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:33 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:09:05 blowery [n=blowery@cpe-72-228-38-92.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:10:31 heh. only advantage wikipedia can come up with for a stack based cpu is shorter opcodes 13:10:56 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:21 <_8david> iltwys"only" 13:11:59 -!- blowery [n=blowery@cpe-72-228-38-92.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:12:15 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:13:35 feagondpt [n=feagond@dyn900-55.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:13:48 -!- feagondpt [n=feagond@dyn900-55.eduroam.ic.ac.uk] has left #lisp 13:18:03 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:18:46 xxxyyy_ [n=chatzill@58.33.178.74] has joined #lisp 13:19:00 -!- azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has quit ["ERC Version 5.1.4 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:20:44 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:20:48 gz [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr1.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:23:14 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:23:19 azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 13:24:06 -!- csmerlin [n=cameron@c-98-234-184-189.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 13:25:04 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:08 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-93-104-56-249.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 13:29:55 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-176-62.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:30:14 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-140-211.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:32:24 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit ["leaving"] 13:33:20 mulander [n=user@80.51.122.72] has joined #lisp 13:33:50 a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has joined #lisp 13:35:31 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:38 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.160] has joined #lisp 13:38:58 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 13:39:09 -!- xxxyyy [n=chatzill@58.33.178.74] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:39:44 -!- stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has left #lisp 13:45:21 -!- xxxyyy_ [n=chatzill@58.33.178.74] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:43 blowery [n=blowery@cpe-72-228-38-92.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:14 -!- blowery [n=blowery@cpe-72-228-38-92.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:46:34 blowery [n=blowery@cpe-72-228-38-92.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:48 -!- [atxBot [n=patx44@adsl-2-249-111.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:47:43 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-166-152.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:48:08 What's the function to remove duplicated elements from a list? 13:48:31 clhs remove-duplicates 13:48:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_dup.htm 13:49:00 yay, got it on first try. ain't it amazing? 13:49:57 jdz: Thanks, but I am looking for a function do this. (func '(1 2 3) '(1 2)) ; => '(1 2 3) 13:50:24 My explanation was bad. 13:50:37 it's not removing duplicates, it's SET-UNION 13:50:40 clhs set-union 13:50:40 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for set-union. 13:50:49 clhs set-difference 13:50:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_set_di.htm 13:51:13 clhs union 13:51:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_unionc.htm 13:51:14 Are you sure that you don't mean union? 13:51:53 my CL is getting really rusty 13:52:36 jdz: Zhivago: yes, union is the one. thanks a lot! 13:52:57 Doesn't preserve order, though. 13:53:37 Zhivago: That's fine in my case. Thanks :) 13:56:38 athos [n=philipp@p54B8767B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:18 -!- a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:03:46 stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:22 elurin [n=user@193.140.230.89] has joined #lisp 14:05:00 -!- dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-34-208.phnx.qwest.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:06:49 ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:00 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 14:08:29 -!- jewel_ is now known as jewel 14:11:07 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 14:13:44 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:16:54 I updated from sbcl 1.0.22 to 1.0.25 and my code is awfully slow, is it something I did wrong ? 14:16:54 auclairb, memo from _8david: Oh, there is a run-sbcl.sh? Didn't know that. Anyway, "clbuild compile-implementation sbcl" will compile sbcl and run install.sh to put it into clbuild/target, where "clbuild lisp" can find it. 14:17:02 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:34 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@dpc6745208046.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 14:18:20 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:18:28 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:34 hugopt [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 14:19:11 -!- hugopt [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has left #lisp 14:20:41 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-129-7.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:15 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:23:49 ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has joined #lisp 14:24:05 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-176-62.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:25:59 -!- bhr [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/bhr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:27:14 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:29:15 nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-223-182-13.man.east.myfairpoint.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:31 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-166-152.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:32:57 auclairb: which 1.0.25? 14:33:39 1.0.25.9 14:34:17 Dare I ask? 14:34:26 -!- workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:33 what do you mean by awfully slow? 14:34:41 how much slower compared to 1.0.22? 14:35:00 what are you measuring, and how? 14:36:32 What I'm mesuring is the execution of a couple of forms that always happen at load time for the package ive been working on for months, it usually takes under 5 seconds. By awfully slow I mean I wait a minute and it's not over 14:36:50 However when i profile 14:37:28 The time spend on each function seems right, but the profile time is like 24 seconds to profile 1 second of execution 14:38:23 It might be related to the changes I've been doing at the same time i switched version though, so there is good probability its my fault 14:38:34 Unlike the memory leak from yesterday 14:38:44 Easy way to check: Roll back to the old version of sbcl and see if it's still slow? 14:40:42 nyef: yes, there is one anomaly though i'd like to investigate first 14:40:54 any of you on sbcl darwin x86 ? 14:42:18 problems? first blame the compiler! 14:42:29 cause it seems there is a leak in the signal/handler-case but i havent found anyone to repro 14:42:52 i can repro everytime on 1.0.22 and 1.0.25.9 14:42:53 H4ns: and then blame hardware? 14:43:06 stassats: right. well, in fact, blaming the hardware should be first 14:44:19 If someone have a mac hanging around to try it here is the code http://paste.lisp.org/display/74939 14:44:27 awfully simple 14:44:28 hardware? what can it possibly do when those pesky laws of physics keep changing all the time 14:44:44 doesnt leak on linux x86 fortunately 14:45:00 auclairb: Weren't you going to debug this yourself? 14:45:08 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 14:45:15 cmm: I thought physics-law updates were supposed to be backwards-compatible? 14:45:16 nyef: I'm not competent enough 14:46:00 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 14:46:02 nyef: it is said that the puppet masters take care to patch memories appropriately, yes 14:46:42 ... I forget, was there ever a muppet pastor? 14:46:59 Ms Piggy was fairly pastoral. 14:47:06 -!- Partyzant [n=Partyzan@rps312.ovh.net] has left #lisp 14:49:52 Can't beleive noone is on mac 14:50:22 I can. It's one of those ports that burns out its maintainers. 14:50:50 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:20 So the mac people are on which implementation ? 14:52:05 There's always clisp :) 14:52:24 Have you considered that it might be that the mac-using sbcl maintainers are simply not on irc at this point for whatever reason, or are temporarily unable to access their macs? 14:52:57 nyef: yup ;) 14:53:30 I love answering rhetorical questions 14:53:30 i use clozure on my mac. 14:53:37 sbcl everywhere else. 14:54:22 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.7.81] has joined #lisp 14:54:32 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.7.81] has left #lisp 14:55:31 'course, I have a ppc mac. 14:58:49 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:02:08 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.17] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:02:42 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B8767B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:07:33 metamunchkin [n=baal@h49n2fls303o885.telia.com] has joined #lisp 15:07:59 -!- elurin [n=user@193.140.230.89] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:13:43 Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:15:23 auclairb, clojure? ;) 15:15:55 actually have sbcl installed here. no clozure on my 1st edition macbook :( 15:17:40 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.89] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:22:10 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 15:22:11 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:22:15 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:23 bhr [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/bhr] has joined #lisp 15:29:22 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-236-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:06 avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:28 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:32:11 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:32:19 avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:15 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:33:24 auclairb: 1.0.24.24 gets to about 2GB of real memory and then crashes for me - darwin x86 10.5.6 15:33:44 hugod_: ah many thanks 15:33:49 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:33:58 -!- stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:34:16 hugod_: now that it repros elsewhere than on my machine i somehow feel better 15:34:20 Is there a function like boundp for lexical binding? 15:34:37 lexical binding is always bound 15:34:52 housel [n=nhousel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 15:35:08 hugod_: next step is to find a lisp expert that will certify that this is valid code and that it shouldnt make memory usage go through the roof 15:35:09 stassats: What do you mean? (let ((x 2)) (boundp 'x)) => false 15:35:31 ignas [n=ignas@158.59.224.76] has joined #lisp 15:35:31 tomoyuki28jp: boundp tests dynamic binding 15:35:34 If you can refer to a binding, then it is bound 15:35:34 tomoyuki28jp, http://paste.lisp.org/display/74974 .. mebbe 15:36:09 the export at the end doesn't really belong there .. copy/paste .. heh 15:36:30 auclairb: can't help you there ... 15:37:41 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:37:52 Greetings! 15:37:56 auclairb: your code sticks for me on linux-x86 and linux-86_64 15:38:11 lnostdal: Thanks! 15:38:22 stassats: sticks = good or sticks = bad ? 15:38:32 bad 15:38:47 auclairb - abcl doesn't like it: Invalid index -1 for array org.armedbear.lisp.SimpleArray_T@4b47c8. 15:38:47 ayrnieu, memo from matimago: perhaps you could join us in the XXI century now? http://www.engadget.com/2006/05/19/robot-surgeon-performs-worlds-first-unassisted-operation/ 15:39:55 stassats: memory usage problem or seomthing else? 15:40:23 -!- bill[af] [n=bill@208.86.227.157] has left #lisp 15:41:25 auclairb: wait.. no, it seems to work ok 15:41:29 oh, and there's variable-information from the sb-cltl2 package, tomoyuki28jp .. maybe that's better 15:41:50 ayrnieu_ [n=julianfo@151.sub-70-196-9.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:41:59 http://paste.lisp.org/display/74974#1 tomoyuki28jp 15:42:12 willb [n=wibenton@wireless93.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:42:20 why one needs such information? 15:42:23 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:42:27 -!- ayrnieu_ is now known as ayrnieu 15:43:05 auclairb - abcl doesn't like it: Invalid index -1 for array org.armedbear.lisp.SimpleArray_T@4b47c8. 15:43:08 auclairb: As it seems to be a reproducible test case, you could submit it to sbcl's bug tracker. 15:43:18 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.160] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:43:24 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:44:49 minion: logs 15:44:49 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ (since 2008-09) and http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (since 2000) 15:45:25 Eleanore [n=a@c213-100-35-225.swipnet.se] has joined #lisp 15:45:29 lnostdal: thanks, it works nice! 15:45:35 ayrnieu: because abcl signals an error of different type? 15:45:43 tomoyuki28jp: why do you need that? 15:46:21 stassats, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss342_w.htm talks a bit about it .. code walking is mentioned 15:46:38 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.211.133] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 15:46:49 tomoyuki28jp: that's very very bad. Use at least sb-cltl2:variable-information 15:48:25 tcr: where can i get more information about sbcl's bug tracker ? 15:48:45 stassats: I am doing continuations like programming and calling lambda inside lambda. I want do something like (let ((x (aif-already-bind x) it new)) ,@body) 15:48:45 i've had one use for this outside code-walking, i think .. but can't remember the context or find it atm. 15:48:56 tcr: thanks for your advice. 15:49:00 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf38e.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:49:39 auclairb: It's not totally official yet, but http://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl already contains a lot of reports. 15:51:57 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:52:14 auclairb: I just ran it on SBCL 1.0.22 on linux x86_64 and there was no leak. 15:52:41 I specifically ran it from the SBCL prompt, not from SLIME. 15:52:50 is there a way to get a list of all current variables? 15:53:26 what is 'current variable'? 15:53:52 the variables valid in the current scope would be a better description 15:54:23 you can do that with special variables 15:54:52 nxt [n=nxt@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 15:54:58 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:55:14 EvanR_ [n=evan@adsl-150-19-240.aby.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:46 with (loop for var being the symbol when (boundp var) collect var) something like that 15:55:55 tmh: so far it only repros on darwin x86 15:56:21 dkcl [n=user@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 15:57:35 -!- adityo [n=adityo@202.87.51.241] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:57:55 auclairb: Ah, okay, I noticed mention of it "sticking" earlier on linux, thought I'd mention that it didn't for me. 15:58:18 though, it will not show unbound special variables 15:59:39 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2D191.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:14 (loop for var being the symbol when (eql (sb-cltl2:variable-information var) :special) collect var) will do in sbcl 16:01:45 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:03:42 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:03:52 tomoyuki28jp: Could you paste your code? 16:04:05 tcr: which one? 16:04:52 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:05:07 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:05:44 where you want that kind of conditional rebinding 16:06:42 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 16:07:24 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:09:01 -!- EvanR [n=evan@adsl-156-67-240.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:10:11 kib2 [n=kib2@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:36 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #lisp 16:10:59 Lain [n=Lain@c-71-224-213-131.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:14 -!- Lain [n=Lain@c-71-224-213-131.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 16:11:36 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89-97-21-219.ip15.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 16:12:12 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:12:33 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-70.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:12:47 tcr: It's hard to paste all the related codes. What I am doing is keep calling lambda function inside lambda with lexical scope like cps, and I am trying to do something like (let ((x (lexical-boundp x) x "new")) ,@body). 16:14:31 I assume you meant (let ((x (if (lexical-boundp x) x new")) ...) 16:14:41 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D07F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:15:25 tcr: oh, yes. 16:15:32 This can be problematic as this establishes a new binding for X in either case. 16:15:49 -!- Zephtar_ [n=srusek@d57-112.icpnet.pl] has quit [Client Quit] 16:17:32 It's also suspicious that do not know whether X is already bound, but at the same time -- if it _is_ bound -- you want to take up its value 16:17:46 `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.31.82] has joined #lisp 16:18:08 -!- `m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 16:19:01 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has left #lisp 16:19:48 attila_lendvai: can you tell me which projects I should pull from darcs (cl-dwim projects) to get cl-perec running? 16:22:55 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:04 svaksha [n=svaksha@88.169.112.155] has joined #lisp 16:25:48 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@88.169.112.155] has quit [Client Quit] 16:25:56 madnificent: we only have non-official patches in metacopy currently 16:26:27 (and in postmodern, but that's not a showstopper) 16:26:47 -!- mulander [n=user@80.51.122.72] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:27:45 svaksha [n=svaksha@88.169.112.155] has joined #lisp 16:28:23 josemanuel [n=josemanu@249.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:29:12 thanks 16:29:21 tcr: Should I add anything : https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/326238 16:32:16 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:32:42 auclairb: Update descriptiong / tags, then add os-darwin as tag 16:33:46 syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:34:20 tcr: thanks for your help 16:34:39 tcr: are you one of the people listed on the right side ? 16:35:54 I still think it's a resource lea... It's unwinding without freeing some allocation performed by the runtime, isn't it? 16:36:29 auclairb: No, I don't have a default subscription. I wait until a gmane gateway emerges. 16:36:49 mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-135.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:08 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA63F.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:42:40 -!- homoioi [n=zc155789@nat/sun/x-41f219b30a57c39c] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:43:09 homoioi [n=zc155789@nat/sun/x-d9c3f3ee199a811a] has joined #lisp 16:43:11 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:43:50 -!- mrsolo__ is now known as mrsolo_ 16:43:55 Good evening. 16:44:12 Hello beach. 16:45:09 I told my 3rd-year undergraduates they could show up here if they have questions about Lisp. My experience is that the number of students that actually do is roughly 0, but I thought I should warn you. 16:45:48 so long as they aren't looking for homework solutions. :) 16:46:28 Right. This year, they are going to work on an information system that I have written (and that I call Apex). In a few weeks they are going to add functionality to it. 16:46:40 -!- Grilinctus is now known as Aankhen`` 16:46:51 I don't think it is likely that they are going to ask anyone here to write it for them. 16:46:52 beach: Do they have to do assignments? 16:47:00 other than the project, no. 16:47:09 what does the system do? 16:47:12 How familiar with Lisp are they? 16:47:31 Fade: it manages students and grades and faculty assigned to courses and such. 16:47:35 -!- dkcl [n=user@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:47:45 tcr: they have had a 6 credit (ECTS) course last semester. 16:47:47 does it do any scheduling? 16:47:55 Fade: not at this point, no. 16:48:01 *nod* 16:48:37 It is basically a CLIM/ESA application that displays various views and allows the user to modify things. 16:49:26 beach: Roughly 0, but some years may have been as high as 2? 16:49:44 nyef: yes, that order of magnitude. 16:50:38 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@249.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 16:52:34 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.89] has joined #lisp 16:52:35 stipet [n=user@c83-253-25-49.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:53:13 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:08 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:57:39 -!- dwave [n=ask@213.236.208.247] has quit ["Be back later"] 16:57:54 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:59:09 milanj [n=milan@93.86.186.140] has joined #lisp 16:59:24 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:03:52 -!- rotty [n=rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:04:16 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@dpc6745208046.direcpc.com] has quit [] 17:04:45 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:05:07 ljosa [n=ljosa@c-76-119-125-184.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:35 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:07:53 Beket_ [n=Beket@ppp-94-68-85-126.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:07:58 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:12:15 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 17:13:12 rotty [n=rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has joined #lisp 17:13:21 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 17:13:22 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:15:02 Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has joined #lisp 17:15:10 Well, I know where the leak comes from for auclaib's thing (wasn't hard to figure out). Not sure why it happens. x86-64-darwin-os.c:199, signal_emulation_wrapper. 17:15:49 dwave [n=ask@084202074231.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 17:16:15 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 17:18:06 feagondpt [n=feagond@dyn1205-118.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:18:16 -!- feagondpt [n=feagond@dyn1205-118.wlan.ic.ac.uk] has left #lisp 17:18:33 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.89] has left #lisp 17:19:50 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:20:49 what's up with the waterfall? 17:22:17 -!- abend [n=sasha@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:23:06 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:25:45 aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 17:26:15 skypher around? 17:28:34 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:28:48 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf171.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 17:29:10 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-135.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:29:51 pkhuong: It's leaked because there's no UWP for it. 17:29:56 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:30:07 Beket [n=Beket@ppp-94-68-67-12.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:30:33 avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:33 nyef: ah, right, and other platforms probably just allocate on the stack. 17:30:39 Spot on. 17:30:59 Riight, I remember this. 17:31:12 Bogus backtrace code in the debugger gets confuzzled by stack-allocated blocks here. 17:31:24 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:31:28 yes. 17:31:36 Honestly, just a -little- more smarts WRT pointer bounds in the backtracer would clear this up. 17:31:56 or saving fp/pc around calls. 17:31:59 (Though that solution only recently occurred to me.) 17:32:29 Sure, but saving them via establishing a new binding on each call is overkill. 17:32:41 ... I think. 17:32:56 Except for the UWP thing again, right. 17:34:31 it could help the GC too. 17:35:01 syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:57 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:16 hugopt [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 17:36:29 -!- hugopt [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has left #lisp 17:36:47 So, this is a kindof random, twisted idea, but... how hard do you think it would be to persuade genesis to output -two- "core" files in different formats for different parts of the image? 17:37:56 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:38:11 You know, the other option is to actually allocate a UWP block. 17:39:24 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:39:47 We could stop pretending Mach is POSIX, and use the native capabilities. 17:40:14 We could, but that would require someone to care deeply enough. 17:40:57 And we don't even have that kind of driver for Win32, where the mismatches are more apparent. 17:40:58 (and in the meantime test if my interrupts branch has broken it) 17:41:00 -!- Beket_ [n=Beket@ppp-94-68-85-126.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:41:02 Frobbing the stack to execute artlf on resumption is seriously lossy. 17:41:28 Yeah, but I think I see how to wedge a UWP in there from the runtime. 17:41:55 mega1: I've got darwin/{x86,x86-64,ppc}, but no time for now. Maybe on sunday. 17:42:03 okay, thanks 17:42:09 The only question is, can I find the routine for continue-unwind? 17:43:03 Hrm. Guess not. That makes it trickier... 17:43:15 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 17:44:00 and fbsd/{x86,x86-64}. That's a long enough list to deserve a TODO. 17:44:27 Anyway, my idea was to stack-allocate an unwind-block, which is defined in genesis/unwind-block.h, set the context to point to a data structure we can pull the pointers to deallocate from, set the return-pc to an ASM fragment which calls a function to do the deallocation and then does an unwind-resume. 17:45:08 Err... OSX has that same system unwind semantics as Linux, doesn't it? All the DWARF eh_frame junk? 17:45:57 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf38e.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:46:26 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:46:30 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:47:11 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:47:45 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:48:20 ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-131-206.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:53:20 -!- binarin` [n=user@62.105.145.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:53:43 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:31 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:54:59 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.17] has joined #lisp 17:55:31 -!- cads is now known as moosemax1 17:56:18 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C90A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:14 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:58:58 johnzorn [n=jz@69-196-134-225.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:35 -!- addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 18:00:10 syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 18:00:55 -!- stipet [n=user@c83-253-25-49.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 18:01:26 -!- ignas [n=ignas@158.59.224.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:02:40 Whats the recommended lisp development environment? So far I've tried the gnuclisp interpreter (which keeps seg faulting on me) and the sbcl interpreter which doesn't have tab completion nor command history. 18:03:04 josemanuel [n=josemanu@249.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:03:27 sbcl under a nice emacs mode. If you can't cope with that, sbcl under rlwrap 18:03:29 slime + sbcl compiler 18:04:01 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-71-165-20-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:04:53 Or, in a pinch, SBCL + CUSP + that-other-eclipse. 18:05:06 ejs [n=eugen@198-197-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:27 -!- moosemax1 is now known as cads 18:08:05 johnzorn: I recomend LispWorks 18:08:55 nyef: what's the first eclipse, then? 18:09:06 window manager? 18:09:11 ah 18:09:11 You benefit greatly from the Lisp Starter Pack by Edi Weitz 18:09:16 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202074231.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 18:09:36 rsynnott: there was also a CL->C compiler called Eclipse 18:09:54 ah 18:10:26 but CUSP is a eclipse module... 18:10:56 The IDE. 18:12:41 it's actually surprisingly okay (CUSP) 18:12:45 if a bit unrelaible 18:13:27 rsynnott: Jasko knows about the unreliable bits, right? 18:13:40 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]"] 18:13:46 possibly 18:13:55 I don't actually use it, just tried it out a few months back 18:14:00 elurin [n=user@85.99.66.92] has joined #lisp 18:14:13 eclipse on macos is pretty horrible, which scared me off it 18:14:20 plus I'm happy enough with slime 18:15:17 Aha, so class-prototype is the salvation for people who want to access shared slots directly. 18:15:24 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:15:35 -!- mvilleneuve [n=matthieu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:16:04 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf171.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 18:16:17 -!- homoioi [n=zc155789@nat/sun/x-d9c3f3ee199a811a] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:19 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:16:49 homoioi [n=zc155789@nat/sun/x-9322104027743feb] has joined #lisp 18:16:49 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:17:22 deepfire: While carefully not being portable, right? 18:18:18 nyef, you mean, something that closer-to-mop cannot solve? 18:20:50 well, s/cannot/does not already/ 18:21:32 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-19-87-52.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:23:18 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:23:20 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has joined #lisp 18:23:39 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:41 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:16 nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:27:28 Oh, I see: "The results are undefined if a portable program modifies the binding of any slot of prototype instance." 18:27:32 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:30 [atxBot [n=patx44@adsl-11-50-58.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:45 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:29:45 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]"] 18:30:01 parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:42 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:33:51 dwave [n=ask@084202074231.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 18:37:01 ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has joined #lisp 18:41:26 -!- Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:41:42 Hello everyone, I'm new to lisp and have been reading Paul Graham's "ANSI Common Lisp". 18:42:23 My initial impression was the lisp symbols would be converted, on compilation, into unique integers or some sort of compact representation like that. 18:42:40 They're already unique. Why make them integers? 18:42:48 But I've discovere that that's not the case and that symbols are actually pretty large. 18:43:06 Is there some way to get "small" symbols? 18:43:22 Implement them differently. 18:43:23 Introspection and interactivity require that. 18:43:39 Consider -- what implies that there be a function slot inside the symbol object? 18:43:47 Zhivago, so pretty much implement your own small-symbol functionality. 18:43:53 if you only want unique values, you can use, e.g., conses. 18:43:57 parodyoflanguage: Just a hint, Practical Common Lisp is much easier for beginners (imho, of course). 18:43:59 No, you just need to step outside of the box a little. 18:44:08 |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:17 (symbol-function x) doesn't need to have a slot inside the object x. 18:44:28 It just needs to be able to find such a slot when given object x. 18:44:49 You could, as a stupid example, implement it with a hash-table. 18:44:52 ignas [n=ignas@158.59.224.76] has joined #lisp 18:45:01 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-132-189-132.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:45:17 Zhivago: That's actually realistic. 18:45:19 daniel_, yeah, but one textbook at a time :) 18:45:45 Well, it would work -- but I'm not so keen on hash-tables for that. 18:45:47 parodyoflanguage: I'm just saying this because I started with ANSI Common Lisp, too, but got bored by it quite quickly 18:46:10 Keep moving those slots out of the symbol and pretty soon it gets small. 18:46:12 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0C5C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:46:18 benny [n=benny@i577A0C5C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:46:32 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:42 Eventually you just need to store a name. And this name needs to be two dimensional and serializable, so it might as well be a string. 18:46:50 Zhivago, so the size of a symbol depends on what you put in it? 18:46:55 Zhivago: the overall memory usage/symbol doesn't go down though, unless the vast majority of slots are empty 18:47:01 The size of the symbol object depends on how you implement it. 18:47:30 I don't understand that. Symbols are a part of lisp. 18:47:31 -!- ivan_chernetsky [n=ivan@port-163-adslby-pool46.infonet.by] has left #lisp 18:47:56 The language implements symbols, though it's probably possible to change that implementation. 18:48:08 parody: You have not been paying attention. 18:48:18 parody: A symbol is essentially a named identity. 18:48:24 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:34 parody: There are various relationship defined upon symbols, such as symbol-function, symbol-value, symbol-plist. 18:48:39 -!- ignas [n=ignas@158.59.224.76] has quit [Client Quit] 18:48:48 parody: These relationships can be represented in a variety of ways. 18:48:51 parody: Do you follow? 18:49:03 Okay, I think I do now. 18:49:03 ignas [n=ignas@158.59.224.76] has joined #lisp 18:49:17 (I was paying attention, though I didn't understand everything that was said.) 18:49:26 Ok. fundamentally the symbol is an identity. In order to preserve that identity across multiple deserializations, it requires a name. 18:49:52 In order to permit names produced by different authors to be disambiguated, we require this name to be two dimensional. 18:50:11 deserialization means converting the string into a it's representation? 18:50:14 And that leads you to every symbol requiring symbol-package and symbol-name. 18:50:23 So you might as well stick those into the symbol object. 18:50:33 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-135.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:39 If you put the others somewhere else, then you'll save space, but you'll pay for lookup. 18:50:41 Pick your poison. 18:51:21 it seems like a false economy, to me. 18:51:36 are you looking at using lisp in an extremely constrained hardware environment? 18:51:39 Oh, I dunno. It depends on how your memory works. 18:51:50 If you have a large minimum object size, then it's a waste of time. 18:51:55 if you just want to do some symbolic computation without blowing up memory as much as you observe, you can ask about opitimizing for memory on a specific implementation, about more memory-efficient ways to do what you're doing, etc. 18:52:02 If you don't, then it might be justifiable. 18:52:18 hrmn 18:52:19 And no-one is stopping you from using fixnums as symbols. 18:52:28 or chars. 18:53:12 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 18:53:45 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202074231.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 18:54:05 Okay, thanks for answering. 18:54:12 Welcome. 18:54:13 I have to go for now. 18:54:22 Personally, I think that CL symbols have a lot of junk in them :) 18:55:09 I'll think it through though. I think since we're dealing with pointers that we're not talking about that much more memory usage. 18:55:28 Well, real quick, are scheme symbols smaller? 18:55:40 Implementation dependent, but they have less relationships. 18:55:52 Okay, I understand. 18:55:57 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:57:24 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.70.223] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:57:52 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.70.223] has joined #lisp 19:04:12 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.6/2009011913]"] 19:05:03 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:19 Tordek [n=tordek@host77.190-226-115.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:05:26 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:10:44 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-135.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:15:00 -!- ejs [n=eugen@198-197-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:16:15 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-41-35.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 19:17:29 -!- stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:19:42 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:16 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.17] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:20:29 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:20:42 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:44 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:59 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:09 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C78B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:49 svaksham [n=svaksha@88.169.112.155] has joined #lisp 19:28:51 -!- svaksham [n=svaksha@88.169.112.155] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:29:28 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-41-35.ucr.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:31:39 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@88.169.112.155] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:32:12 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 19:33:51 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:02 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Client Quit] 19:34:45 stepnem [n=chatzill@topol.nat.praha12.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:48 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-41-35.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 19:35:21 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-79.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:35:38 EXetoC [i=EXetoC@c-f090e155.1422-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:36:56 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:38:01 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 19:38:03 -!- svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:39:57 svaksha [n=svaksha@perrier.eu.org] has joined #lisp 19:41:22 vsync [n=vsync@220-27.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:09 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:45:12 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:48:41 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:48:55 Beket_ [n=Beket@ppp-94-68-121-64.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:49:07 jfrancis__ [n=jfrancis@66.194.68.209] has joined #lisp 19:52:08 ejs [n=eugen@123-96-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:18 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:22 greetings 19:52:28 Hello fusss. 19:52:32 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:52:33 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:52:59 many people will enjoy this little known gem if lisp lore, discovered in cll courtesy of the ever awesome rainer 19:53:06 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/impl/clicc/doc/cl0.pgz 19:53:51 it describes CL0 and CLOS0, strict subsets of common lisp and clos (circa '93) 19:53:54 hey nyef 19:56:46 even though the authors misunderstand reflection has the ability of a program to change its own "program text" :-P 19:56:53 s/has/as/ 19:57:15 Still, just reading the introduction is interesting. 19:57:17 -!- ejs [n=eugen@123-96-112-92.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:57:23 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-236-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:57:55 "semantical"? 19:58:11 There're lots of Lisp papers from that time made by the APPLY group of the Fraunhofer Gesellschaft. 19:58:25 schme [n=schme@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:58:32 Their work on Eulisp is much more interesting. 19:59:03 i know there was some eulisp/islisp in there 19:59:16 mattc58 [n=mattc58@c-24-99-229-25.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:30 tcr, any pointers? 19:59:56 -!- Beket [n=Beket@ppp-94-68-67-12.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:00:01 I'd really like to write a compiler targetting LLVM for Eulisp. 20:00:06 deepfire: ftp://ftp.fhg.de/archive/gmd/apply/ 20:01:07 (The Fraunhofer Gesellschaft also holds the patent for MP3, I think.) 20:01:51 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.171.149] has quit ["“I am free to use whatever time i want, for example, currently my time is 14:11, I usually add PM as there is always some daf] 20:06:42 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:11:49 -!- ml` [n=milan@port-92-192-101-110.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 20:16:58 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d83429.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:17:59 Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has joined #lisp 20:18:24 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 20:19:06 whatever happened to erlisp? 20:19:07 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:52 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:22:25 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:23:06 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:23:34 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:16 -!- bew [n=chatzill@82-35-250-119.cable.ubr04.dals.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:25:42 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 20:25:45 *hefner* wonders if anyone has run that clicc compiler recently (or tried to) 20:26:10 -!- dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [] 20:26:30 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:56 -!- schme [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 20:29:21 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit ["migrating to bed"] 20:31:31 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.7.26.140] has joined #lisp 20:31:38 aggieben - http://www.dirkgerrits.com/darcs/erlisp/ -- in darcs, and with a hostile robots.txt 20:32:22 jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has joined #lisp 20:32:34 jlap [n=Administ@118-92-171-2.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:32:42 demmeln [i=demmeln@atradig111.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 20:32:50 -!- jlap [n=Administ@118-92-171-2.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 20:33:42 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 20:34:24 dwave [n=ask@084202074231.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 20:35:03 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202074231.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Client Quit] 20:35:11 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 20:35:38 ayrnieu: cool....but I was wondering about it's development. Nobody's blogged about it or posted to the mailing list in _years_. 20:39:19 heow [n=user@colo-69-31-43-106.pilosoft.com] has joined #lisp 20:39:44 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:40:23 -!- ntoll [n=ntoll@85.210.66.47] has quit [] 20:43:50 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:44:12 -!- mattc58 [n=mattc58@c-24-99-229-25.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:44:27 ayrnieu_ [n=julianfo@c-76-30-82-6.hsd1.tx.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:49 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@151.sub-70-196-9.myvzw.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:44:54 -!- ayrnieu_ is now known as ayrnieu 20:46:06 dwave [n=ask@084202074231.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 20:47:51 -!- gcopenhaver [n=greg@c-71-206-116-36.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:47:55 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202074231.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Client Quit] 20:52:27 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-67-161-89-244.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:59 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-41-35.ucr.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:00:32 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-41-35.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 21:02:59 -!- demmeln [i=demmeln@atradig111.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:04:07 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:25 Good morning. 21:05:47 mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has joined #lisp 21:07:07 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:10:43 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:11:41 -!- homoioi [n=zc155789@nat/sun/x-9322104027743feb] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:12:33 homoioi [n=zc155789@nat/sun/x-ce677d793260fe5c] has joined #lisp 21:12:34 ejs [n=eugen@94-248-46-151.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 21:15:49 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.210.126] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:40 morning szergling 21:18:22 morning 21:18:42 Will ensure-generic-function do the right thing with early source-locations? 21:18:49 -!- [atxBot [n=patx44@adsl-11-50-58.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:19:07 X-Scale [i=email@89.181.30.183] has joined #lisp 21:20:16 [atxBot [n=patx44@adsl-11-50-58.mia.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:25 -!- BrianRice-mb is now known as BrianRice 21:20:43 does anybody here have a running cl-perec installation? I'm having trouble to set it up here 21:22:10 -!- jollygood_ [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:16 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:23:34 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:23:45 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:25:50 clhs rationalp 21:25:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rati_1.htm 21:26:10 madnificent: I did, once upon a time. 21:26:22 madnificent: what's going on? 21:27:32 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:28:18 -!- [atxBot [n=patx44@adsl-11-50-58.mia.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:28:19 AllNight^ [n=EnglishG@ai-core.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:28:29 hello all :) 21:28:43 -!- mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has left #lisp 21:28:51 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-236-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:32 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:36:12 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-13.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:37:07 luis: I'm trying to install it, but it refuses to load persistence/set.lisp ... Apparantly it doesn't seem to understand defptype. (I haven't searched where that is defined) 21:37:37 does anyone here know if it's possible to set the readtable on a per-package basis? 21:37:50 when trying to load cl-perec as a system, the loading simply hangs 21:38:37 madnificent: post the error perhaps, make sure you're using the same versions of the various dependencies as they are. If that fails, try the mailing list, they reply pretty fast. 21:39:49 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-179-113-121.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:41:06 luis: where can I find the versions? I downloaded most of them from the darcs repositories. 21:42:12 luis: it seems to be a bit hard to post an error message on a system that 'hangs'. I've tried manually loading each of the files of cl-perec, but still the system seems to hang. The defpset error is gone though (probably didn't load a dependency by doing it manually). 21:42:23 AllNight^: No, it's unfortunately not. I have some, not yet published, code that enables you to set it per file, though. 21:42:51 madnificent: can't you interrupt it and get a backtrace or something? 21:44:07 madnificent: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-dwim/darcs/ I think 21:46:17 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-70.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 21:46:43 *luis* looks forward to the editor-hints stuff! 21:46:49 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.66.92] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:47:37 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-135.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:36 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:48:57 clupacizra [n=jake@c-71-232-92-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:29 -!- Aratsu- [n=blah@24.42.160.108] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:49:45 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host108-177-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:18 rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:36 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:41 that would be useful tcr! 21:51:52 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-67-161-89-244.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:52:02 I'm trying to write some lisp code for dealing with a mini-language - but the mini-language is case sensitive 21:52:05 AllNight^: What implementation do you use? 21:52:11 SBCL at present 21:52:32 luis: editor-hints? 21:52:32 -!- heow [n=user@colo-69-31-43-106.pilosoft.com] has left #lisp 21:52:48 AllNight^: http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/darcs/editor-hints/ 21:52:51 dwave [n=ask@084202074231.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 21:53:16 AllNight^: You can already use it with SBCL. 21:53:57 cool - and thanks tcr :) 21:54:28 hmmm. How's cl-perec? It sounds like I should try it :) 21:55:11 I'm looking into the possibility of using lisp instead of C to code a fully-fledged windows program, that has to use the WinAPI and 3rd party DLLs/static libraries not written in lisp extensively but after some research on the net I read things like "Not many lisp software works properly in Microsoft windows. The lion share of desktop application runs on windows box, but many lisp apps do not work."... Should I not get my hopes up and use C when 21:55:11 it comes to M$ Win? 21:55:40 -!- Beket_ [n=Beket@ppp-94-68-121-64.home.otenet.gr] has quit [] 21:55:43 canto: I believe Allegro has fairly good support for windows. 21:55:52 AllNight^: You use (defreadtable :foo (:merge :standard) (:case :preserve)), and then add (in-readtable :foo) at the start of the relevant files. 21:55:58 at least, probably better than most other lisps. 21:56:07 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94-248-46-151.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has left #lisp 21:56:24 sykopomp: cl-perec is pretty neat 21:56:31 sykopomp: so good, that I can use it to code a multimedia application that uses video capturing and sockets and such? 21:57:19 canto: I don't know. Look through Franz's site. You can also just ask them yourself, but Allegro is fairly pricey unless you're doing this for business :) 21:57:24 Pegazus [n=awefawe@host100.190-137-19.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:57:25 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:57:43 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [] 21:57:49 yea, 600USD and upwards, I read that on their page. 21:57:50 luis: I had a pretty hard time dealing with elephant. Is cl-perec up to date or has it joined the graveyard of unsupported lisp libs? 21:57:58 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:55 canto: http://weitz.de/regex-coach/ is a Windows application written with Lispworks. 21:58:55 I also thought about the possibility of using Lisp to code my application and then convert it to C code and compile that. I don't know if that's a good idea. 21:58:56 sykopomp: attila is using it in production 22:00:28 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.17] has joined #lisp 22:00:33 fe[nl]ix: well, if attila's using it, it must be quality. I'll give it a shot :) 22:01:09 canto: There are FFIs for Lisp. You're probably fine with linking to DLLs and such. 22:01:38 and there's plenty of lisp apps that use FFIs. I don't know what else you'd want for windows development. 22:01:50 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-93-104-56-249.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:02:22 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:22 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:22 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:43 -!- nha [n=prefect@137-64.105-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:03:20 mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-ae0ba4b3da55a157] has joined #lisp 22:04:20 if only I could get cl-perec to run -_- 22:05:40 aww. I wanted to try cl-perec because I couldn't get elephant to run (I'd rather use elephant) 22:05:54 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:07:25 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:47 -!- metamunchkin [n=baal@h49n2fls303o885.telia.com] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"] 22:07:48 sykopomp: I looked at elephant (couldn't get that one to run either) 22:07:48 sykopomp: aren't you a bit far into your project to be sorting out persistence now? 22:07:56 sykopomp: but the cl-perec approach looks a bit nicer to me :) 22:08:59 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:05 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:07 hefner: how so? 22:09:51 sykopomp: and which project are you working on this time? 22:09:52 dunno, I think that's among the first things you'd figure out, after you settled what language you were using 22:10:21 I don't really see that, considering the way these datastores work. 22:10:22 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202074231.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 22:10:41 I prototyped an older version of sykosomatic using bknr's datastore, so I have an idea of how stuff has to work. 22:10:57 and I haven't yet written the stuff that would be dependent on *which* datastore I use. 22:11:22 madnificent: I'm trying to make a version of sheeple that uses a database as a backend, so I can finally start using it in sykosomatic. 22:11:41 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-135.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:11:58 sykosomatic being the MUD engine 22:12:09 and the reason I'm working on sheeple in the first place. 22:13:21 -!- akcom [i=akcom@rrcs-67-79-132-149.se.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:14:36 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.181.30.183] has left #lisp 22:17:58 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:18:03 sykopomp: ahh, niceness. AFAICT cl-perec should be faster than elephant, which could be a welcome addition (with sheeple not being overly fast) 22:18:33 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:18:49 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:19:00 but would it be faster than elephant using bdb? 22:19:19 -!- bhr [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/bhr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:19:40 sykopomp: doesn't elephant fetch everything from the database in any case? (that would make elephant slower) 22:19:42 also, sheeple is pretty fast now. Could be faster, but I'm happy with it for now. 22:20:27 sykopomp: in essence cl-perec keeps the objects in memory and performs the operations on them in memory. The database backend is only there to ensure the reloading of content is possible 22:20:47 -!- dewszaq [n=peterbb@95.34.109.68.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:21:13 oh. Nevermind then. The whole point of using elephant is so I can actually -fit- everything in memory. 22:21:43 sykopomp: how do you mean? 22:21:48 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 22:22:34 madnificent: each game objet carries a nice big chunk of string data, so ram fills up pretty fast. I was using bknr's datastore when I was just playing around with stuff. The switch to elephant is so I can keep stuff in-disk. 22:22:55 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 22:23:04 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:24:07 sykopomp: cl-perec will only load those objects which you requested, and it is possible (albeit manually (ugh)) to undefine them 22:24:38 sykopomp: and how can you have too much data? are you having a multi-GB MUD-system :O :P 22:25:09 that may or may not be necessary, depending on how elephant's performance is with BDB 22:26:00 and like I said, the game objects can be pretty bulky, and this kind of stuff grows over time, so even a small MUD with 100 or so total players can rack up quite a database of game objects after a couple of years. 22:26:17 sounds fair 22:26:33 not to mention that the nicest place to set up a MUD is in something like a VPS, and RAM can get expensive, while disk space is cheap :) 22:27:07 I don't want to have to pay for a 4gb vps when I could just sacrifice a bit of performance and have everything in a database. 22:27:58 perhaps the objects shouldn't each carry large chunks of string data. :) 22:28:32 sykopomp: I was assuming that your MUD would contain at most 100MB of objects. When this is not the case, elephant does sound like a wise choice 22:28:34 foom: Sheeple solves this at least partially by allowing large chunks of the data to be stored in parent objects. 22:28:46 but there's no way to have a well-described world without strings ;) 22:29:25 sykopomp: right, but if you only have one copy of each string that a human writes 22:29:31 I can't imagine it growing too large to store in memory 22:29:38 I do, that's what sheeple does. 22:29:55 unless you override a slot value, sheeple checks the nearest parent for a slot value. 22:30:04 and the parent is the one that actually stores the string. 22:30:31 huh 22:30:33 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-41-35.ucr.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:30:41 perhaps I should try again with bknr 22:31:40 then again, I'm using threads, so I don't know how well bknr handles that (cl-perec does it well, though, it seems. 22:33:16 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-41-35.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 22:34:09 The mud I ran for years (well, it's still running, but it's a mud, and nobody plays those these days...) is only using 60MB of ram to store the entire world. 22:34:58 huh. How many game-objects? 22:35:01 sykopomp: It seemed to handle it :) 22:35:20 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:37:03 dwave [n=ask@084202074231.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 22:37:17 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:37:35 about 50k objects, 15k object types 22:37:49 -!- realtime [i=sabbath@189.72.27.133] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:38:01 realtime [i=sabbath@189.72.27.133] has joined #lisp 22:38:02 huh interesting. 22:38:29 granted, when I was using bknr, I was simply creating a ton of individual instances with copies of all these strings (and objects within objects) 22:38:47 foom: is your mud LPC-based? 22:39:38 -!- dwave [n=ask@084202074231.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Client Quit] 22:39:43 no, it's ROM (merc/diku) based. 22:40:18 but parts of it were rewritten in Objective C. :) 22:40:36 hmm, set.lisp returns #T for ordered-set-p. However, my lisp (sbcl) doesn't know #T at that point. Shouldn't that be T instead? 22:41:05 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 22:43:00 -!- Thas [n=weechat@97-113-44-93.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:43:14 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0C5C.versanet.de] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- rotty [n=rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087F6FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:14 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:15 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:15 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:43:15 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [hubbard.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 22:44:23 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 22:44:57 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:57 benny [n=benny@i577A0C5C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:44:57 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:57 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 22:44:57 aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:57 rotty [n=rotty@83-215-154-5.hage.dyn.salzburg-online.at] has joined #lisp 22:44:57 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:57 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087F6FB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:57 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 22:44:57 djarvelis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:44:57 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:44:57 kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has joined #lisp 22:44:57 Soulman__ [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:58 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:58 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 22:44:58 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 22:44:58 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 22:44:58 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:44:58 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 22:44:58 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:58 mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 22:44:58 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 22:45:15 X-Scale [i=email@89.181.30.183] has joined #lisp 22:46:02 Thas [n=weechat@97-113-44-93.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 22:46:25 aaarg, why can't cl-perec come with some versioned source-code that contains everything that is needed ?! (frustration is getting the upper hand) 22:47:31 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B4BB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:13 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-235-253.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 22:48:20 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:48:32 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:50:01 `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.31.82] has joined #lisp 22:50:22 pkhuong_ [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:52:49 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:54 -!- `m4dnificent is now known as m4dnificent 22:53:27 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.82] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:53:47 Maddas: attilla uses #T and #F reader-macros 22:54:36 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 22:54:39 tcr: but they aren't defined... any idea where I can find them? 22:54:59 cl-syntactic-sugar, I'd guess 22:55:07 or similiarly named 22:55:21 I have that, I think it is loaded... (/me searches) 22:56:27 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:56:54 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:56:58 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@249.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:57:59 H4ns: should I be good using bknr if I have a nice big lock for writes? 22:58:11 using bknr with threads* 23:00:05 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:40 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 23:01:46 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:02:14 gemelen_ [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-138-197.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 23:03:39 cl-syntax-sugar doesn't seem to export T... if that could say anything about whether or not #T should be defined in another package 23:04:44 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-92-101-158-218.vologda.ru] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:04:48 -!- gemelen_ is now known as gemelen 23:05:46 It doesn't. 23:05:55 m4dnificent: it's a reader macro: see cl-syntax-sugar:enable-sharp-boolean-syntax 23:06:14 `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.31.82] has joined #lisp 23:06:58 -!- `m4dnificent is now known as madnificent 23:07:36 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 23:09:31 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:10:19 -!- homoioi [n=zc155789@nat/sun/x-ce677d793260fe5c] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:37 homoioi [n=zc155789@nat/sun/x-06c86788f58dc17c] has joined #lisp 23:11:48 -!- szergling [n=tyc20@125-236-135-147.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has left #lisp 23:13:04 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.186.140] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:16:38 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:21:27 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:21:29 bhz- [n=resm@62.57.239.236.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:56 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:22:02 -!- m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.31.82] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:23:32 -!- younder [i=jpthing@084202158137.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:02 disumu [n=disumu@p57A2527A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:08 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:26:49 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:50 chrysolite [n=mois@cpe-70-114-8-234.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:29:25 -!- voidpointer [n=voidpoin@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has quit ["leaving"] 23:29:25 -!- chrysolite is now known as Spkka 23:31:44 voidpointer [n=voidpoin@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has joined #lisp 23:32:53 -!- clupacizra [n=jake@c-71-232-92-69.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:37:39 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.7.26.140] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:38:29 dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-34-208.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:10 aundro__ [n=aundro@223.176-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 23:40:24 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.82] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:43:51 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:48:23 -!- ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:48:38 ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:49:43 -!- ljosa [n=ljosa@c-76-119-125-184.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:50:28 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 23:50:37 __death [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 23:51:58 ljosa [n=ljosa@c-76-119-125-184.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:32 -!- aundro_ [n=aundro@90.98-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:40 -!- homoioi [n=zc155789@nat/sun/x-06c86788f58dc17c] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:56:07 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [] 23:56:10 homoioi [n=zc155789@nat/sun/x-4cb3081d877c65eb] has joined #lisp 23:56:12 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:58:11 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 23:58:23 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless93.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:59:18 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:59:45 ilya [n=ilya@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has joined #lisp