00:00:13 -!- mrSpec [n=noOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["ZzZzZzz.."] 00:02:13 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@85.186.180.45] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:02:18 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 00:02:25 cmatei [n=cmatei@85.186.180.45] has joined #lisp 00:07:37 -!- Cheshire [n=e@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:07:48 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:08:00 -!- kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [No route to host] 00:09:51 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 00:11:13 -!- skeptomai_ [n=cb@75-165-99-105.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [] 00:12:43 fualo_ [n=fualo@d170-106.primero-2.ucdavis.edu] has joined #lisp 00:17:50 parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:53 -!- fualo [n=fualo@169.237.219.239] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:58 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Adios"] 00:18:11 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:19:51 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-79.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 00:21:49 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-79.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:22:18 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:23:19 skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has joined #lisp 00:23:48 -!- parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:27:37 *tcr* tries to redefines one of sbcl's internal defstruct in the running image... crossing fingers 00:27:43 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 00:29:42 what's the name of the function that parses fasls? 00:29:45 w00t!, it worked. 00:29:49 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Client Quit] 00:30:08 weirdo: LOAD? Or did you mean more internally? 00:30:33 nyef, i'd like to see if fasls (and in turn, the core) could be made smaller 00:30:48 i.e. if there's some redundant stuff that could be cut down 00:31:10 You're not thinking this through. 00:31:22 core can be stripped by means of tree shaking 00:31:51 the consensus is that tree shaking is a bad solution 00:32:03 and it's better if sbcl is made more modular 00:32:11 Whose consensus? 00:32:36 the channel's, apparently. everyone agreed on that when i last time asked about tree shaking :) 00:32:37 Don't just go with the consensus, evaluate the argument yourself and draw your own conclusions. 00:32:39 well, you can't tell in general which code will be used and which not 00:33:03 I mean, sure, in this case they're right, tree-shaking is fundamentally unsound, but that's entirely besides the point. 00:33:12 stassats, yeah, well, if some code does (funcall (intern ...)) then all bets are off 00:33:55 what's a core? just a memory image? 00:35:02 Beket [n=stathis@ppp118-76.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 00:35:03 No, it's a memory image, some mapping data, a header, etc. 00:35:12 Not even a full memory image, either. 00:35:45 i'm not even sure if big image causes deliverability problems 00:36:01 sure, it makes sbcl useless for unix scripting 00:36:32 Tree-shaking is fundamentally unsound in Common Lisp, not in general. 00:36:34 That's not what makes sbcl useless for unix scripting. 00:36:41 but someone made a good case on cll, they give bugfixes for users to apply on a running program 00:37:13 nyef, what does, then? 00:37:33 for me it's humongous executables *and* slow LOAD, even with fasls in place 00:37:52 -!- The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087D9F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:37:52 If LOAD being slow is a problem, your scripts are too larger. 00:38:08 (And why are you compiling them ahead of time, anyway?) 00:38:11 if script is running more then 5 seconds, you won't notice 00:38:13 <_dd> weirdo: save an image and avoid the LOADs? 00:38:24 s/then/than/ 00:38:24 _dd: That'd blow through disk space too fast. 00:38:46 try loading cl-perec, it takes literally a minute 00:38:47 <_dd> nyef: load all your "unix scripts" into the same image and write a toplevel function that runs the right one based on arg[0] 00:38:57 <_dd> argv[0] 00:39:25 _dd: Or just have it load from source each time. 00:39:28 eh, in that case, running a RPC service inside a swankified image seems a better bet 00:39:37 <_dd> nyef: i thought you wanted it to be fast to load. 00:40:09 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless93.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:40:20 i'm not sure what causes cl-perec to load so long 00:40:20 I do that by writing shorter scripts. :-P 00:40:49 for me "script" implies something short 00:40:56 Hmm, in the chapter now dealing with defgeneric and classes and all that. I may be missing something - basically does defclass just define the slots? Since I'm not noticing any methods within the defclass, it's really hard to kinda unwrap my mind from other languages I've used. 00:41:33 TDT: defclass basically is just the slots, yes. There's a couple other bits, but that's the general idea. 00:41:34 it defines class with slots 00:42:46 Ah ok, so basically the defgeneric with the class picking in the first argument, that uses eql to determine if the object being passed in is an instance of a particular class and then if so executes that version of method defined from defmethod? 00:42:54 TDT: Methods can be defined that operate solely in terms of built-in datatypes, rather than requiring something defined via defclass, so the notion of a method "belonging" to a class doesn't really show up at the implementation level even if it does at a conceptual level at times. 00:43:40 EQL specializers are for picking up particular -values-, not classes. 00:43:40 Yeah, I think I'm starting to understand that...totally opposite of other languages I've used thus far and it's a lot to take in. 00:43:48 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:44:07 -!- drafael [n=quassel@ip-118-90-130-209.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:54 drafael [n=quassel@ip-118-90-133-31.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:45:15 nyef, stassats - Thanks for explaining it a bit more clearly. Working on exercises now to solidify the knowledge, it's definitely dense, but kinda cool at the same time. 00:45:55 spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 00:46:35 I've had methods that I've EQL-specialzied on one argument... and it was an integer. 00:46:37 i think, you will not have a good grasp of CLOS by reading two chapters in PCL, it's better to read keene's book afterwards 00:46:50 weirdo: do you have a set of libraries that make cl-perec work? 00:48:26 *sykopomp* waits for elephant to explode. 00:48:45 madnificent, i do 00:49:00 cffi cl-def closer-mop cl-perec cl-rdbms cl-syntax-sugar cl-walker cl-yalog computed-class contextl defclass-star local-time metabang-bind metacopy postmodern stefil 00:49:13 these need to be in development versions forked by attila et al 00:50:19 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:50:25 nyef: It's late here already, do you happen to be able to tell me what's compiler/target-main.lisp about? 00:50:32 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:50:56 nyef: Or, what exactly is the cross-compilation target? 00:51:15 rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:51:41 tcr: The cross-compilation target is the cold-core. 00:52:02 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 00:52:03 tcr: So target-main is mostly just the bits for making COMPILE happen, as opposed to COMPILE-FILE which is also used by the cross-compiler. 00:52:03 the one that will be construct the eventual sbcl "binary"? 00:52:40 Yes. 00:53:13 hmm.. slime usually notifies me in the status bar of the function syntax I'm typing, however, any known reason why it wouldn't work for some functions (i.e. this now happens with all functions in a particular loaded file) 00:53:38 i.e. I get (write-to-queue) only 00:53:53 debug settings? 00:53:55 nyef: The cross-compiler can, for example, be clisp with the right state of the moon, but the cross-compilation target is the stripped down version of sbcl that is used to compile itself? 00:54:15 stassats: hmm thanks for the suggestion I'll check 00:54:35 debugging indeed set to 0 in that file 00:54:38 tcr: No. 00:54:40 phadthai: Does the buffer you're editing in contain a (in-package :foo) form? 00:54:59 tcr: it does 00:55:03 phadthai: 1 should be enough 00:55:31 nyef: Ok, how's the picture then? 00:55:39 The host compiler could possibly be clisp. The cross-compiler is the stripped-down instance of Python that is used to build the cold-core. 00:56:08 nyef: Is this described somewhere? You could give a presentation about how SBCL bootstraps itself at the Bostoners Meeting! 00:56:20 It's described in a few places, actually. 00:56:31 stassats: it now works, thanks a lot :) 00:56:42 I wonder, who else was at the last Lisp Meeting? 00:57:13 -!- Lou__ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has quit [Success] 00:59:07 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:32 Lou__ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has joined #lisp 01:00:40 sykopomp: I was! :P 01:00:51 ianmcorvidae: well duh 01:05:52 tcr: http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/Papers might have some good information, actually. 01:07:19 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:08:06 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 01:09:17 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CCD7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:09:49 elephant broke >:( 01:10:13 too much straw on its back? 01:10:27 hmm anyone know a FORMAT appreviation for C \r (CR) instead of having to use ~:C ? 01:10:33 abbreviation 01:10:38 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:40 BrianRice-mb_ [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:41 tcr: There's also a brief description at http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/Build but it's a touch outdated and may be simply wrong in places. 01:10:52 ~|, ~& not it 01:11:06 and ~% linefeed only 01:11:27 phadthai: you could define a ~// function called r that prints a carriage return (: 01:11:43 that seems interesting :) 01:11:48 so there is no standard one then? 01:11:58 no, not AFAIK 01:12:07 which implementation are you using? 01:12:12 sbcl 01:12:29 there might be one that supports automatic line-end translation on character streams 01:12:35 antifuchs: no. Just several files refusing to compile... 01:12:36 :| 01:12:38 I think flexi-streams does that 01:12:45 clhs flexi-streams 01:12:46 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.31.245] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:12:46 antifuchs: true, I didn't check into that yet 01:12:53 argh. 01:12:56 minion: flexi-streams 01:12:58 flexi-streams: FLEXI-STREAMS is a library which implements "virtual" bivalent streams that can be layered atop real binary/bivalent streams. http://www.cliki.net/flexi-streams 01:13:02 sbcl doesn't, afaik 01:13:18 this is for something following common internet protocols so being able to type it inline with few chars can be useful 01:13:37 or auto-conversion of course, although it'd have to be low overhead 01:13:41 but you can do the automatic thing by using flexi-streams, and specifying a carriage-return/linefeed terminated external format 01:14:46 IIRC, flexi-streams is used by hunchentoot and drakma; it comes with a i/o performance penalty, but it might be fast enough 01:14:48 thanks, I'll probably check flexi-streams performance, if that doesn't suit I'll write something simpler to do it perhaps 01:15:08 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:16:17 already using a custom buffered abstraction so adding single bytes should be very fast also 01:19:02 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:19:07 cool, good luck (: 01:19:44 -!- timchen119 is now known as nasloc__ 01:20:52 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-51-103.ucr.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:23:18 cavelife [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has joined #lisp 01:23:22 -!- cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:23:32 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:24:11 cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has joined #lisp 01:24:31 -!- cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:24:42 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@85.186.180.45] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:25:48 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:54 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:29:48 bighouse [n=bighouse@bas1-montreal42-1177928121.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:30:52 antifuchs: thanks 01:30:54 -!- cavelife [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:32:51 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@62-47-141-114.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:33:53 cmatei [n=cmatei@85.186.180.45] has joined #lisp 01:35:27 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:36:13 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-222.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:37:20 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-fb1d20b5c4c88e0a] has joined #lisp 01:39:59 cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has joined #lisp 01:42:52 -!- BrianRice-mb_ is now known as BrianRice 01:45:44 astoon [n=astoon_n@94.77.50.165] has joined #lisp 01:46:53 -!- astoon [n=astoon_n@94.77.50.165] has left #lisp 01:50:24 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:53 ml` [n=milan@port-92-192-12-128.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 01:52:26 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075691pcs.unl.edu] has joined #lisp 01:52:27 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177147059.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:53:28 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:20 any alexandria devs around? 01:55:33 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 01:56:19 nikodemus is pretty much who's got the last word, but perhaps I could help nontheless 01:57:19 i made may own library of tiny functions, maybe you could see if any of them could be appropriated into alexandria? 01:57:33 s/may/my 01:57:55 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:55 i'd rather depend on only alexandria than on two similar utilities libraries 01:59:23 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:32 tcr, here's the code: http://tehran.lain.pl/gitweb?p=etna.git;a=blob_plain;f=misc.lisp;hb=HEAD 02:02:02 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:03:01 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@67.40.185.246] has quit [] 02:05:15 Hello, folks. I've only been working with Lisp for a few weeks. I'm amazed by it. 02:05:50 congratulations! 02:06:52 weirdo: a few perhaps. Many are already in Alexandria 02:06:58 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 02:07:42 tcr, ok. the code is in public domain, so go ahead if you find anything interesting 02:08:53 Are the Common Lisp implementations (GNU, Allegro CL, CMUCL, etc.) all relatively similar? Should I prefer one over another for any reason? 02:08:57 -!- ml`_ [n=milan@port-92-192-85-219.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:09:13 In terms of being CL, yes. 02:09:28 In other respects, not really. It depends on what you want to do. 02:09:50 and on what platform 02:09:54 (Which question were you answering, Zhivago?) 02:10:06 I dunno, clisp has had some spectacularly stupid conformance bugs on occasion. 02:10:19 mokogobo's. 02:10:57 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.250.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:11:11 (Yes, but there were two, and an answer of `no, yes' or `yes, no' would make more sense than `yes, yes' or `no, no'.) 02:11:20 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:12:14 Riastradh: In my somewhat dated version of paredit, M-r on (bar (foo |)) results in an error. 02:12:43 What did you expect it to do, tcr? Dance for you? 02:12:57 _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has joined #lisp 02:12:57 You'll get the same error if you try C-M-f, which makes about as much sense there. 02:13:17 Wild guess: Did you want to type M-s, to invoke `paredit-splice-sexps'? 02:13:23 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 02:13:33 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:38 I want (bar (foo )) be replaced by (foo ) 02:13:50 Then type `C-M-u M-r', if the point is still where it was before. 02:13:53 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:13:56 Notice that point is supposed to be at the closing parenthesis after foo 02:14:12 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:14:23 `paredit-raise-sexp' raises the S-expression that follows the point. 02:14:30 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 02:14:35 After your point, there is no S-expression; there is only the end of a list. 02:15:02 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 02:15:40 I thought it's supposed to raise the s-exp at point. (I'm not entirely sure if "at point" in Emacs speak correlates with my wishful understanding of it, though.) 02:16:19 If it is in the middle of a symbol or a number or similar, it raises that. 02:17:38 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@bas1-montreal42-1177928121.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:18:36 <_Pb> M-x vip-mode dt(%x 02:18:43 <_Pb> would work :D 02:19:40 _Pb: Even if the (bar is not on the same line? 02:20:37 -!- cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:20:43 thom__ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:22:50 cavelife^ [n=cavelife@116.32.180.23] has joined #lisp 02:23:00 <_Pb> ah, no then 02:26:11 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.207.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:34:17 -!- _Pb [n=Pb@75.139.140.101] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:35:28 Fulax [n=cyprien@85-171-65-14.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 02:40:07 hsuh [n=user@201.21.205.110] has joined #lisp 02:40:49 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:43:43 trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-233-107.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:02 schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.196.139] has joined #lisp 02:44:53 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:44:59 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-203-098.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:45:00 -!- ltbarcly` [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:45:22 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.130.113] has joined #lisp 02:46:32 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-222.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:39 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-78-238.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:52:32 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:44 -!- benny` [n=benny@87.122.0.255] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:53:16 black [n=blackasd@n058152115076.netvigator.com] has joined #lisp 02:53:18 -!- black [n=blackasd@n058152115076.netvigator.com] has left #lisp 02:53:47 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:54:12 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.130.113] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:57:18 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:00:28 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-71-165-20-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:47 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@209.131.62.113] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:03:37 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:53 http://pastebin.ca/1325913 (for anyone interested in some custom code test results comparing sbcl+iolib/spidermonkey+libevent/c+kqueue) 03:06:21 phadthai: very nice 03:06:22 more faster 03:06:25 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:36 make your C version go faster 03:07:43 phadthai: could you do some profiling on iolib ? I'd be interested to know what's the bottleneck in your case 03:07:44 so this was basically to convince myself to eventually drop my js-written application server and trying cl instead 03:07:47 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.130.113] has joined #lisp 03:08:02 so I'm quite satisfied by the results 03:08:53 fe[nl]ix: I probably will use it more and if necessary try to make it faster eventually, but this is already nice imo 03:09:52 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 03:10:04 perhaps you could let sb-sprof run and paste the results. it might be interesting. 03:10:20 will not sb-sprof down 03:10:22 s/not/note/ 03:10:46 How the heck are people supposed to get elephant to work? >:( 03:13:25 I'm not sure where the time breaks down for a lightweight web server, but syscalls tend to be faster than I expect 03:13:27 as part of that test httpd there's also some messy use of map to convert string to unsigned byte 8 which I'll surely make more efficient, so I can't blame any compoment yet, the bottleneck could very well be in my own code :) 03:13:55 s/compoment/component/ 03:14:14 e.g. I was benchmarking some code that used sb-posix to walk a very large directory tree and build a structure in memory, and most of the time was spent in sb-posix's stat wrappers building friendlier structures and playing with strings 03:17:26 interesting 03:17:58 in this particular case syscalls can become a bottleneck if no proper buffering is used, but buffering was used in all three cases 03:19:03 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:21:46 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:21:48 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp118-76.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:22:04 ltbarcly` [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:32 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:25:58 where do you usually put slime-setup in emacs? 03:26:14 in some hook? 03:26:14 in init.el ? 03:26:26 what's init.el? 03:26:28 in .emacs 03:26:36 .sxemacs/init.el <= startup file 03:27:02 I don't think I ever want to load emacs without loading slime. So no hookery. 03:27:10 I also put it in ~/.emacs here 03:27:16 thanks 03:27:18 what contrib packages do you use with slime? 03:27:33 slime-repl slime-autodoc slime-presentations slime-c-p-c slime-fancy-inspector slime-asdf slime-indentation 03:27:37 but then again I only use emacs for lisp :) 03:28:19 weirdo: I have currently only repl, banner and autodoc. Let me check the other you use. Thanks 03:28:54 spiderbyte [n=dcl@freecode-project/hacker/spiderbyte] has joined #lisp 03:29:20 why not slime-fancy directly ? it is a meta-package and I thnik it contains a lot, if not all, of the packages you mentionned... 03:31:10 i don't want everything from slime-fancy 03:31:26 especially not fuzzy completion 03:31:39 elephant does seem like a mess 03:31:40 Fuzzy completion is a bear? 03:33:35 rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:33:49 hi, i'm trying to use clsql-mysql 03:33:59 but it says the connect function isn't external 03:34:04 i have no clue what that means 03:35:15 ... That doesn't sound right. 03:35:16 weirdo: Slime-fancy does not make fuzzy completion be the default completion. 03:35:48 rullie: You appear to be attempting to paraphrase the error message you are getting. 03:36:04 how do you press M-TAB? ESC TAB? Alt-TAB is captured by window managers :( 03:36:07 http://rafb.net/p/50HsqT11.html 03:36:22 C-M-i 03:36:30 echo-area: It depends on where you have your Meta mapped :) 03:36:40 Riastradh: Thank you! 03:37:12 (Reason being: This is either an error from binding to libmysql, which is therefore an FFI problem, and unlikely to mention an "external function", or it is a package system issue, which doesn't cause messages about -functions- not being external, it complains about symbols not being external.) 03:37:17 weirdo: And you do miss some contribs, like slime-references, slime-package-fu, slime-mdot-fu, slime-fontifying-fu 03:37:32 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:38:10 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:22 echo-area: I can recommend '(slime-fancy slime-asdf) 03:38:42 nyef: it's likely the binding issue then? 03:38:58 tcr: Let me try, thank you 03:39:16 Honestly? It's more likely caused by someone not reading the documentation. 03:39:45 nyef: which documentation 03:39:55 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:57 The cl-sql documentation, presumably. 03:40:54 The filename "C:\\s3as.b.lisp" implies that you're using SLIME. If you're compiling from SLIME, it's likely a form you composed yourself. You mentioned that it's a function that's the problem, and the error message mentions the CLSQL-MYSQL package. 03:41:17 A quick google search turns up a connection example for clsql to mysql. 03:41:22 -!- drafael [n=quassel@ip-118-90-133-31.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:41:33 nyef: oh? could i have the url 03:41:51 And it uses, in effect, (clsql-user:connect `("" "test" "" "") :database-type :mysql). 03:41:59 drafael [n=quassel@ip-118-90-133-238.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:42:00 Suggesting that you're using the wrong package. 03:42:09 http://bc.tech.coop/blog/040608.html 03:42:17 thanks 03:42:58 However, cl-sql presumably has documentation in its source distribution, and if memory serves is based on the API for common-sql, for which documentation is also available. 03:43:47 i was aiming for a quick minimum start to get a taste of how it works without the need to read a bible 03:45:10 rullie: I recommend the tutorial. 03:45:14 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:45:21 schme: which tutorial? 03:45:22 Ugh. And now all that database knowledge is coming flooding back to me at least a week too early. 03:45:49 the one nyef posted? 03:46:17 rullie: No. The one in the CL-SQL documentation. 03:46:23 oh 03:46:26 CLSQL even 03:46:46 ok 03:47:00 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:47:07 But ya. you're probably using the wrong package :) 03:47:44 when i'm reading these posts from 2004, i'm really unsure about if i should follow it 03:47:56 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:04 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:48:24 what does slime-presentations do? Adding clickable properties? 03:48:32 It's things like this that really drive home to me exactly how difficult "artificial intelligence" actually is. 03:49:19 (: 03:49:39 echo-area: And menus, in some fashion, apparently. I tried to figure out how to get custom display in emacs for presented objects, but that turned out to be a bit difficult. 03:50:24 thanks 03:53:02 oh, i think all i had to do was to use clsql instead of clsql-mysql 03:54:02 schme: Seriously. Going from a mis-sumarized error message to the heart of the problem how quickly? And the implications read from the actual error message? It can't be easy to program a computer to do that. 03:54:18 btw, is log5 the way to go for logging? 03:54:54 nyef: It took just 15 minutes :) 03:55:11 ... You know, -somebody- will write or has written a logging library called "chainsaw". 03:55:28 *hefner* scuttles joke about how he'd use a chainsaw 03:55:58 hefner: The newbies would be DOOMed? 03:56:19 so... is log5 the way to go? 03:56:21 maybe someone more clever could reference Frogger 03:56:29 there should be a way for contribs to register keys in a default mode-map 03:56:54 rullie: This is one of those "evaluate it for yourself" moments. 03:57:07 nyef: oh k 03:57:16 nyef: ok, go crazy 03:58:11 jsnell: Ooh. Thanks. 03:58:20 i need to call code in between ALLOCATE-INSTANCE and INITIALIZE-INSTANCE 03:58:36 what's the preferred way? 03:59:00 <_death> why? 03:59:01 MAKE-INSTANCE appears to be doing much more 03:59:21 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:59:33 _death, i need to bind a special variable to an instance for the duration of MAKE-INSTANCE 03:59:55 so that other instances would know their "outer instance" 04:00:15 <_death> :around for make-instance? 04:00:32 caoliver [n=oliver@75-134-208-20.dhcp.trcy.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:00:50 not technically allowed 04:01:10 <_death> how come? 04:01:25 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 04:01:30 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-fb1d20b5c4c88e0a] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:01:47 stupid bot, what good is remembering that section number if you can't show off 04:01:56 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-ef65a0ce8d290389] has joined #lisp 04:01:58 Hehehehe. 04:02:21 <_death> jsnell: hmm? 04:02:22 minion: Are you here? 04:02:22 yes 04:02:29 minion: Please ask specbot to rejoin. 04:02:30 rejoin: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 04:02:32 <_death> are you referring to 19? 04:02:37 Heh. 04:02:39 yes 04:03:04 note that make-instance takes a class argument, not an instance argument like eg. shared-initialize 04:03:27 that's why it's ok to specialize the latter for any of your own classes 04:03:37 while make-instance only for classes that use a non-standard metaclass 04:03:52 <_death> ah, got it 04:06:27 MexiNerd [i=MexiNerd@ip72-207-23-205.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:31 When an Asian woman has a baby with a Negro, she is closer related DNA-wise to the Mexican or White kid next door than to her own shitskin child, due to the fact that blacks have more DNA differences from everybody else. Learn even more facts about nnniiiiggggers by joining Chimpout! http://www.chimpout.com/forum/index.php All races except for Negroids are welcome! 04:07:09 Paging the chop. 04:07:12 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:04 ,ops 04:08:07 hrm 04:08:13 wtf 04:08:16 Okay, so I added the sbcl-export alias to .git/config, and then I git sbcl-export HEAD~4 to push one of my changes to my CVS tree. Do I now just edit version.lisp-expr, add the version number to .msg, and do "cvs commit -F .msg" ? 04:08:22 wft indeed. 04:08:36 somebody ban that asshat. 04:08:52 jsnell, you sure it's not allowed? i don't create it for all instances, only for my own class 04:09:07 Krystof, slyrus, you around? 04:10:11 <_death> weirdo: presumably, your class is an instance of standard-class 04:10:30 When an Asian woman has a baby with a Negro, she is closer related DNA-wise to the Mexican or White kid next door than to her own shitskin child, due to the fact that blacks have more DNA differences from everybody else. Learn even more facts about nnniiiiggggers by joining Chimpout! http://www.chimpout.com/forum/index.php All races except for Negroids are welcome! 04:10:38 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:10:42 hmm i did (defmethod initialize-instance :around ((form form) &key) ...) 04:11:07 is it allowed or not? 04:11:19 <_death> yes, that is allowed 04:11:30 MexiNerd, don't repeat yourself 04:12:50 it's a hate-spam bot 04:13:09 Also spamming #emacs as well. 04:13:17 phadthai: actually, it's a hate-spam employee 04:13:25 possibly heh 04:13:27 Wonder if it's just Lispers it's after. 04:13:29 ? 04:13:42 it's in #haskell, too 04:13:43 No. It hit #haskell and #emacs too. 04:13:47 ...and #math, I mean. 04:14:11 phadthai: they show up here every now and then, actually. 04:14:12 it usually got klined right after spamming here previously 04:14:20 yes 04:14:26 http://www.telvista.com/ <--- I think that's who they work for or something. 04:14:55 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:15:15 Klined ::= stuffed into a Kline bottle... but it'd fall right out again.:-( 04:15:16 weirdo: that's not make-instance though 04:15:21 I once tracked down their hosting provider but didn't follow-up or complaint to their uplink 04:16:54 nyef: that would sound about right 04:17:18 guy's pushing some strange stuff here, neo-eugenics or sth 04:18:03 Okay, that's that branch worth of changes checked in. 04:19:02 Should I also check in the sub-access-debug-var-slot reunification stuff, or should I leave it? 04:19:23 When an Asian woman has a baby with a Negro, she is closer related DNA-wise to the Mexican or White kid next door than to her own shitskin child, due to the fact that blacks have more DNA differences from everybody else. Learn even more facts about nnniiiiggggers by joining Chimpout! http://www.chimpout.com/forum/index.php All races except for Negroids are welcome! 04:19:31 MexiNerd: stfu 04:19:38 sykopomp: /ignore? 04:19:39 rudi_ [n=rudi@z118l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 04:19:51 -!- rudi_ is now known as rudi 04:19:53 nyef: that works too 04:20:12 are there no ops here? seriously 04:20:17 this is ridiculous 04:20:31 yes, they should be at your beck and call 24/7 04:20:34 It would seem to me that #lisp and #math is an odd place to spam. I'd think these channels mostly were frequented by people with braincells and all. 04:20:37 ozy`: You might have better luck with a network op than a channel op. 04:21:02 nyef: freenode ops seem to be out of commission atm. May have to wait a bit before the K-line 04:21:06 maybe consider getting ircop help at #freenode or such if you have the time to kill 04:21:11 but it's been reported. /ignore for now :) 04:21:17 hrray 04:21:32 nyef: not familiar with those changes, but if you think they're good, why not? 04:22:12 jsnell: Well, it was intended to reduce the conditionalization in the debugger... but it just ended up making it denser, so I don't know that it's a win. 04:22:28 It does eliminate the second copies of sub-access-debug-var-slot and sub-set-debug-var-slot, though. 04:22:53 I guess if worst comes to worst it can be reverted. 04:22:53 ErrantEgo [n=ErrantEg@c-68-42-152-177.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:18 cox.net has dynamic ip anyway 04:23:26 co a k-line won't change anything 04:23:34 they can uplug their cable modem and get a new ip address 04:25:19 -!- MexiNerd [i=MexiNerd@ip72-207-23-205.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [K-lined] 04:26:12 So kill of all of cox.net 04:26:13 -!- ErrantEgo [n=ErrantEg@c-68-42-152-177.hsd1.mi.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:26:32 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-54-10.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:19 Okay, I think I'm done. 04:27:22 jsnell: Thank you. 04:28:33 Then report to COX with IP and Greenwich time for the incident. 04:29:02 That assumes they have a reasonable anti-spam policy. 04:29:23 they're actually not just from Cox 04:31:34 Sometimes I think humans can't be trusted with anonymity. 04:31:55 anyways, back to lisp, the idiot is gone :) 04:31:56 If I said that sort of thing live, I'm likely to get a broken face. 04:32:07 fusss: you had a run-in with elephant, iirc? 04:32:22 sykopomp: briefly, yeah 04:32:45 but clsql has its own clean data model that isn't prepared sql statements 04:33:49 -!- trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-233-107.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:34:19 .. for my purposes 04:34:46 "Threads in which it is allowed to call into lisp are always started from lisp."? That's a little bit... absolute. And I doubt it'll remain true for too much longer. 04:34:59 fusss: Is it a really common thing for elephant to just plain not work at all, even on a fairly common setup? (sbcl/linux32)? 04:35:23 I'm thinking that I should really just give it up. It seems to be horribly broken for anyone except devs :-\ 04:35:54 depends on what backend you're using. berkeley DB 4.5 is the recommended one. 04:36:18 werdan7 [n=w7@freenode/staff/wikimedia.werdan7] has joined #lisp 04:36:21 bdb fails quite spectacularly :-\ 04:36:27 if you want to serialize to an rdbms, you probably are having trouble with csql and not elephant per se 04:36:40 I really only want bdb :) 04:37:00 do you have 4.5? did you configure your ele-bdb file? 04:37:20 fusss: I did the whole my-config.sexp thing, yeah. 04:38:08 the bug is actually when creating a fresh database (I managed to track the error down), but I really have no idea how to deal with it. It's FFI stuff, and I don't know any C, not to mention they have a pretty fancy setup under the hood :( 04:38:08 elurin [n=user@85.99.66.92] has joined #lisp 04:38:22 did you create the directory manually first? 04:38:48 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:52 elephant creates the database automatically ONLY for sqlite. for bdb you need to mkdir first 04:39:22 I did mkdir, yes. 04:39:22 and why are you asking me lisp questions? i'm here for the offtopic dicussions :-P 04:39:36 :( because I'm a newbie and I had a bad day :( 04:39:58 hold on, let me login to my remote box where i have elephant running 04:39:59 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:39:59 I accidentally rm'd a random chunk of my ~ today, while messing around with ele :-\ 04:40:11 Ugh! 04:40:32 and your "rm" isn't an lias for mv? 04:40:34 Booze and rm -rf do not mix. 04:41:13 caoliver: Sure they do! It's "rm -rf / Booze". :-P 04:41:27 fusss: now it's an alias for rm -i 04:41:38 Don't you go about rm -rf-ing my booze. 04:41:57 I actually find that an annoying alias. 04:42:05 caoliver: agreed 04:42:08 Much the way I find sudo annoying. 04:42:25 "sudo make me a sandwich" 04:43:06 isn't it absurd? the OS goes out of its way to protect its own files, which I could reinstall from the net in an hour, but does nothing to stop me from destroying my own data, which I can't get back? 04:43:26 Hmm... What OS? 04:43:40 well, it's a holdover from when the OS was a big shared system, so messing with the system was much more destructive 04:43:40 most of them, but pick a unix flavor 04:43:44 (assuming it's unix) 04:44:03 If Linux, you might do a chattr +i on important static files. 04:44:05 so it's less about protecting itself, and more about protecting others 04:44:10 -!- yango_ [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:44:22 You need rootability for that chattr. 04:44:34 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-78-238.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:44:41 Hello beach. 04:44:42 Good morning. 04:44:50 mornin' beach 04:44:56 'lo beach. 04:45:23 -!- schwinn434 [n=schwinn4@75.81.196.139] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:46:01 sykopomp: version 0.9 confirmed working with bdb 4.5 mate 04:46:14 fusss: I'm using their 1.0 release ;-\ 04:46:18 I guess I'll try 0.9 04:46:23 thanks 04:46:27 cutting edge you! 04:46:42 I'm just going by what they say their stable releases are... 04:47:02 and I didn't know there was a 1.0 (/me reaches for another beer) 04:47:51 "1.0 Alpha 2 Release" 04:47:57 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 04:49:32 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:50 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:51:04 i'm trying to update the cliki page on elephant; is the download link automatically generated from c-l.net or can i change it? 04:51:32 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:52:06 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:59 fusss: also... much death with 9.1 (which is what they have a download link up for) 04:52:59 -!- voidpointer [n=voidpoin@unaffiliated/voidpointer] has quit ["leaving"] 04:53:12 oh wait, 9's there 04:53:14 mutter 04:55:48 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-222.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 04:55:55 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o slyrus 04:56:01 -!- slyrus changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language . New: SBCL 1.0.25, usocket 0.4.1, ABCL 0.12, cl-net-snmp 5.19, yason-0.1, trivial-features 0.4, CFFI 0.10.3, series 2.2.10 04:56:03 object stores are fun and elegant. sqlite and mysql + def-view-class take me half way there, plus i can have lisp code share a database with god knows whatever else is there. http://clsql.b9.com/manual/def-view-class.html 04:56:23 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o slyrus 04:56:37 slyrus: what changed in the title? 04:56:58 fusss: sbcl 1.0.25 04:57:03 \o/ 04:57:51 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:59:13 "SB-BSD-SOCKETS now works from saved cores as well [on Windows]" :-) 04:59:17 -!- laynor [n=laynor@host-62-10-167-39.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:06:40 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 05:11:40 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 05:13:20 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 05:13:23 -!- mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075691pcs.unl.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:13:46 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:17 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 05:17:38 fusss: yeah. No luck with elephant. Any version. I'm gonna give up and use bknr's datastore again until elephant decides to actually work :) 05:18:07 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 05:20:00 -!- pjb [n=t@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:20:08 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D321.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:29 skeptomai [n=cb@c-24-17-212-9.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:36 EtFb [n=etfb@203.22.236.8] has joined #lisp 05:21:59 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D128.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:22:05 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-238-145.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 05:22:20 yango_ [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 05:23:16 evening 05:23:16 -!- skeptomai [n=cb@c-24-17-212-9.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:24:10 hello slyrus 05:24:26 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:24:32 Ugh. It's morning already. 05:25:03 howdy beach, nyef 05:25:24 Hello slyrus. 05:28:00 nyef: where are your recent commits ultimately heading? 05:28:30 I don't know that they're heading anywhere, at this point. 05:29:27 ah, ok. I figured you had some master plan in mind... 05:30:14 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:30:14 This is a mix of fixes to make relocation more plausible and various cleanups. 05:30:44 Commits .1, .4, .5 and .6 are pure cleanup. 05:31:52 Commit .3 is half cleanup and half making sure x86 code-objects can be relocated prior to doing the cold-toplevels. 05:32:13 And commit .2 is fixing an egregious violation of heap discipline. 05:32:55 parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-34-118.twm.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:25 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35:53 -!- karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:38:58 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:47:11 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 05:49:39 -!- sbahra 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quit [Client Quit] 06:33:27 -!- EtFb [n=etfb@203.22.236.8] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net/"] 06:37:35 Beket [n=stathis@ppp118-76.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 06:41:31 sykopomp: 06:41:37 sorry, typo 06:42:26 aww :( 06:42:34 I was all happy because you wanted to talk to me. 06:51:39 marco_ [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 06:52:09 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:52:52 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:51 The-Kenny [n=moritz@p5087C7AF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:05 heh 06:56:26 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.157.233] has joined #lisp 06:58:20 -!- nyef [n=nyef@70.20.58.237] has quit ["G'night all."] 07:05:13 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.157.233] has quit [" I lent it to quit at the parent directory for a particular odious application i know."] 07:05:56 a-s`` [n=user@85.9.55.98] has joined #lisp 07:06:21 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.157.233] has joined 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[n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:23 eevar [n=snuffpup@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:36:23 -!- eevar [n=snuffpup@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:37:18 hey 07:37:28 anyone has cl-cont defgeneric/defmethod code? 07:38:34 oh, it's in arnesi 07:42:03 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.130.113] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:42:20 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.130.113] has joined #lisp 07:48:18 mvilleneuve [n=matthieu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:37 good morning 07:48:44 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:48:48 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:50:03 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 07:50:04 -!- Beket [n=stathis@ppp118-76.adsl.forthnet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:50:20 Axioplase [n=Pied@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 07:50:22 Hi 07:50:53 Hi! Can't we define SHARED-INITIALIZE methods for conditions? 07:50:59 night all 07:51:00 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-54-10.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"] 07:51:05 can I easily tell asdf to look for .cl files instead of .lisp files ? 07:51:35 Axioplase: You can easily rename .cl files with .lisp suffix. 07:52:19 danlei [n=user@pD9E2C373.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:51 dihymo [n=dihymo@97-124-34-208.phnx.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:29 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:56:12 vy: sure, but that doesn't answer my question though. 08:03:30 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 08:06:39 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:22 workthrick [n=mathrick@0x55529153.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 08:13:31 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 08:17:23 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM114-51-156-132.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:18:29 eevar2 [n=jalla@56.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:22:35 Axioplase: you could try to subclass asdf:cl-source-file and change its asdf:source-file-type method. 16:56:25 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 16:56:25 16:56:25 -!- names: ccl-logbot voidpointer willb the-ruediger karvus LostMonarch matimago LiamH auclairb xristos athos dwave Davidbrcz sohail alley_cat araujo jeremiah sbahra josemanuel sledge tmh rpg kpreid avdi Cheshire bfein danlei` rdd H4ns2 malumalu Eleanore antgreen Kathrin-24^away The-Kenny matley mikezor_ nyef spacebat_ sellout jajcloz pierre_thierry envi^home jewel dmiles_afk Adamant davazp Liempt kiuma Lou__ sysfault aggieben_ milanj mejja dlowe Jasko 16:56:25 -!- names: maodun jollygood jrockway me-so-stupid authentic slash_ Nshag schoppenhauer silenius aking Odin- BrianRice-mb mgr spec[afk] H4ns PissedNumlock ignas keithr tic rumbleca prip Zhivago dfox poolio l4ndfo archypetro schme mle addled Buganini xinming lnostdal tcr gonzojive daniel_ Athas ia hkBst realtime benny VityokOrgUa dihymo Axioplase Aankhen`` marco_ slyrus slyrus_ yango_ segv_ beach blbrown elurin werdan7 drafael spiderbyte ltbarcly` DeusExPikachu 16:56:25 -!- names: cavelife^ thom__ ml` cmatei fe[nl]ix weirdo gemelen borism_ hugod nullwork postamar ayrnieu xan ``Erik fgtech UnwashedMeme ecret Cryovat mcxx cheatcountry sykopomp minion lisppaste jonphilpott rey_ foom appletizer bombshel2er13 lemoinem mtd rread Khisanth existentialmonk TDT larstobi iskander_ jkantz kefka gcopenhaver ffx` pitui KingThomasIV aundro_ _death CrazyEddy mega1 djarvelis Krystof nasloc__ ilitirit atypic patmaddox cp1134 kejsaren myrkraverk 16:56:25 -!- names: AntiSpamMeta eevar_ drewc s0ber_ antoszka dewszaq Quadrescence wlr gaja kmkaplan nxt Tordek repnop merAch Adrinael Atherton hsaliak dcrawford sjbach g0ju_ V-ille Bucciarati tessier__ johs sad0ur z0d pok kleppari p8m joast mathrick m4thrick msingh pragma_ thom_logn abend pkhuong r0bby bob_f bdowning pchrist hefner phadthai mrsolo ltbarcly meingbg cmm Guest82189 bombshelter13 frontiers jsnell l_a_m antifuchs yoonkn Draggor bohanlon Ginei_Morioka 16:56:25 -!- names: flazz maskd dto mornfall Cel srcerer vsync REPLeffect e271 froydnj danderson luis chii tltstc felipe tarbo p_l Partyzant boyscared Fade eirik rsynnott Zephtar cods Martinp23 _dd guenther__ Thumper_ froog Patzy wgl mr_uggla _8david Aisling retupmoca albino jlilly yahooooo anekos fnordus Tristam djkthx zbigniew krappie rlb3 azuk kuwabara vcgomes maxote andrewy Maddas wasabi__ Wombat1 ahaas drforr djinni` mqt delYsid clog thijso ianmcorvidae Soulman__ 16:56:25 -!- names: ineiros herbieB carchidi koning_robot gz billstclair Chrononaut qebab Riastradh turbo24prg _3b joga housel technik Dazhbog deepfire__ Xof erg enn cYmen emma scode dostoyevsky Arnar kuhzoo Thas 16:56:39 Actually, it's coffee. But, beer is better for saluting. 16:57:03 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 16:57:48 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 16:59:24 pkhuong_ [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:00:10 *nyef* looks at the code for fd-stream.lisp / pick-output-routine in horror. 17:00:23 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:00:33 -!- pkhuong_ [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 17:01:00 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 17:01:06 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:01:18 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA3E5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:02:25 nyef: I really appreciate all the work the SBCL devs do. How do you find the time? 17:02:41 sleep is for the weak ? 17:02:55 s/weak/dead 17:03:26 auclairb: Are you still here? 17:03:38 I end up with plenty of time between consulting gigs. 17:04:22 nyef: Ah, yes. That's when I work on my PhD. Maybe when I get that done, I can work on some more general stuff that I've had on the back-burner. 17:04:49 Sleep is for the week. 17:05:17 sbahra: So, programming is for the weekends? 17:05:19 tmh: you're doing your degree part time? 17:05:45 more typically, ph.d procrastination is an engine for software, methinkgs 17:06:03 salex: I completed all course work, then had to move. I'm trying to complete the dissertation remotely. 17:07:08 I did a lot of sbcl hacking while (not) doing my PhD 17:07:25 *tmh* chuckles 17:07:53 Luckily, I have my wife to remind me to stay on topic. 17:08:17 I wonder now common NADD is in the lisp community. 17:08:41 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:09:06 She has been the primary bread winner by design for the past few years. But lately, she thinks she might be more interested in staying home with the kids. So, I need to wrap up the ol' PhD and get some steady consulting gigs. 17:09:35 -!- merAch [n=none@c-71-199-20-205.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:09:58 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:10:13 merAch [n=none@c-71-199-20-205.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:40 minion: instructions 17:10:41 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``instructions''. 17:10:49 minion: help 17:10:49 There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms". 17:12:45 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:12:52 man, ive been much fonder of my macintosh since I installed clozure on it. 17:13:39 Fade: Have you been using the IDE and GUI bindings? 17:13:43 -!- addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 17:14:08 i was playing with the ide, but it isn't as good as slime. 17:14:16 addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 17:14:19 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-170-32.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:14:37 the gui bindings are pretty good 17:14:59 (you can make apple's little cocoa hello world app with fewer lines of code than in ObjC :) ) 17:15:05 Xlas [n=28@c-4f3e70d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:15:28 erm... is it true that symbolicweb got scrapped? 17:15:47 apparently lnostdal's fan club was insufficiently effusive 17:15:51 i'm pretty impressed with the way it will compile down to a double clickale exec 17:16:16 p_l, yeah, i wanna work on it alone 17:16:23 yeah its pretty impressive for osx application development 17:16:54 albeit a large platform-specific one 17:17:15 you have other solutions for the rest 17:17:18 (I suppose if you were masochistic you could make a 'universal binary', but you'd need two separate computers 17:17:24 and three clozures :) 17:17:27 a free lisp well integrated with osx was needed 17:17:47 universal as in ppc ? 17:17:53 i wouldnt bother with that 17:18:13 'universal binary' is what Apple calls a collection of executables for their two (or three or four) platforms 17:18:34 how stable is the 32bit Intel clozure these days? 17:18:40 -!- azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has quit ["ERC Version 5.1.4 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:18:53 user_ [n=user@124.124.233.5] has joined #lisp 17:19:02 -!- spec[afk] is now known as mrSpec 17:19:25 never tried it 17:19:33 hi 17:19:52 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83.103.127.195] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:22:03 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:26:11 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:26:34 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:59 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@220.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 17:27:14 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:28:30 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbfb03.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 17:29:41 minion: memo auclairb You could solve your problem using the Metaobject Protocol. 17:29:46 you speak nonsense 17:29:57 minion: help memos 17:29:57 To send a memo, say something like ``minion: memo for nick: the memo''. I'll remember the memo for any nick which is the same as the given nick, +/- differences in punctuation, and any nick which is an alias for it, and give it to them when they next speak. 17:30:31 minion: memo for auclairb: You could solve your problem using the Metaobject Protocol instead of macros. 17:30:32 Remembered. I'll tell auclairb when he/she/it next speaks. 17:30:43 anyone have experience with using utf8 under sbcl? If so, is recommended setup using 32-bit internal character representation even though reading/writing utf8? 17:31:03 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:31:12 azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 17:31:18 and any recommended lib, or is native unportable sb interface best? 17:32:06 phadthai: What do you see when you search CLiki ? 17:32:44 I've found a link to configure sbcl external stream format, and also one about babel 17:34:21 for efficiency I wouldn't mind using 8-bit as external+internal presentation but this raises issues making things like normalization impossible for sorting or searching 17:34:42 phadthai: Take a closer look at this page: http://www.cliki.net/CloserLookAtCharacters. Also, take a look at flexi-streams. 17:34:45 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-222.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:02 will do 17:35:47 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:36:27 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:37:11 phadthai: In addition to flexi-streams, Edi also has a CL-unicode library. I found all of this stuff by performing a simple search on CLiki and following a couple links after your initial post. 17:37:39 yes flexi-streams page has cl-unicode link which I'll also look into 17:37:39 thanks 17:38:07 well what I was mostly wondering was about native sb facilities also 17:38:27 but I guess I'll first check if portable libs are efficient enough 17:38:30 rsynnott: 32-bit x86 Clozure CL is in pretty good shape now. 17:38:45 hello is minion a bot? 17:39:01 -!- merAch [n=none@c-71-199-20-205.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit ["( www.nnscript.com :: NoNameScript 4.22 :: www.esnation.com )"] 17:39:05 user_: yes 17:39:38 fualo [n=fualo@d170-106.primero-2.ucdavis.edu] has joined #lisp 17:41:04 rme: ah, cool 17:42:34 minion: Are you a bot? 17:42:36 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:42:36 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 17:43:16 We really need to make a CCL 1.3 release... 17:43:44 minion: I have two apples in left hand and one apple in right hand. How many apples do I have? 17:43:46 does torturing a poor bot with things beyond its comprehension please you? 17:43:56 :) 17:44:20 minion: two and two equals ? 17:44:21 please stop playing with me... i am not a toy 17:45:04 Too bad minion doesn't have kick privileges. Three strikes and you're out. 17:45:07 careful, or it will catch fire 17:45:18 josemanuel [n=josemanu@220.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:45:33 minion, who is your author? 17:45:35 king kong 17:45:37 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5c00.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:55 see, I bet #cobol doesn't have a bot that good :) 17:49:04 heh 17:49:50 Krystof, not really .. everyone's just easier to ignore 17:52:20 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 17:52:24 phadthai: just to add to the confusion, I think babel also does unicode 17:54:12 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 17:54:47 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:54:51 rsynnott: true it was the first lib I checked a bit 17:55:38 sb-ext:string-to-octets and sb-ext:octets-to-string interest me also, I'll check how sbcl deals with sorting or character comparision with its default facilities 17:56:06 s/default/native/ 17:56:17 Bah, it's not confusion, it's options. Options are good. :-) 17:56:50 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:57:17 for the actual IO, you're probably as well off using one of the portable libraries 17:57:30 I believe flexi-streams is moderately efficient these days 17:58:37 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 17:59:06 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:53 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:38 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:00:47 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 18:02:05 quit 18:02:10 -!- user_ [n=user@124.124.233.5] has quit ["leaving"] 18:03:25 What is the function to get a place from a variable ? 18:03:26 auclairb, memo from tmh: You could solve your problem using the Metaobject Protocol instead of macros. 18:04:23 -!- DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@pool-71-165-20-85.lsanca.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:04:27 a place? 18:04:34 auclairb: How do you mean? 18:04:52 I think the variable *is* "the place", no? 18:05:15 -!- avdi [n=avdi@216.230.102.194] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:21 I have a class who has accessors called x, y and z, I want to store one of them in a variable so that I can increment it later 18:05:38 Does that make sense? 18:05:54 clhs with-accessors 18:06:02 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:42 damn, where is specbot? 18:06:56 auclairb: Not totally, but if I understand, you could use a list '(x y z) that you rotate and the first symbol is the current one. 18:06:59 auclairb: You want WITH-ACCESSORS :) 18:08:02 auclairb: Also, if you want to get fancy, you could use the Metaobject Protocol to define a new constructor that would generate your custom accessors. 18:08:07 stassats, schme: yes with-accessors seem to be what im looking for thank you 18:08:30 tmh, yes i have to look into that 18:09:20 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[afk] 18:09:57 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@cnmc12.hs.ntnu.edu.tw] has quit ["leaving"] 18:10:48 auclairb: it's also possible to create a setf function/method for a wanted variable if necessary 18:10:54 tickingaway [n=tmcclory@wifi-roaming-19-163.nss.udel.edu] has joined #lisp 18:11:16 auclairb: i.e. (defun (setf foo) (value) ... 18:11:29 which will also allow incf etc 18:11:32 accessors already do that 18:11:36 indeed 18:12:15 *weirdo* purrs 18:15:09 Buganini [n=buganini@140.122.126.12] has joined #lisp 18:16:07 [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.62] has joined #lisp 18:16:43 -!- addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 18:17:17 umis [n=umis@82.193.124.116.ipnet.kiev.ua] has joined #lisp 18:17:27 -!- tickingaway [n=tmcclory@wifi-roaming-19-163.nss.udel.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:19:10 antoni [n=antoni@232.pool85-53-18.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 18:19:32 getxsick [i=skfarek@unaffiliated/getxsick] has joined #lisp 18:22:56 hi 18:23:55 pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:25:29 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:27:05 -!- antoni [n=antoni@232.pool85-53-18.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [] 18:30:21 -!- thom__ [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:32:37 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-135.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:45 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:36:26 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 18:37:01 pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:40:13 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 18:40:56 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:09 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:41:12 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 18:41:32 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@dcha-aa1497.taconic.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:42:46 Alright, the with-accessors works great withing the scope but looks like I can save the accessor to a variable properly. I'll make a paste to show what I'm looking for. 18:43:18 I am using the rfc2388 package, and it does not work with utf-8 encoded content, but works with latin-1. What's the best way to convert the encoding to utf-8 after parsing? 18:43:45 auclairb: you are doing something wrong 18:44:01 or, want something wrong 18:44:49 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45:30 auclairb pasted "can't get with-accessors to do what i want" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74802 18:46:00 I might want something wrong, in which case I will elaborate on why im looking for that 18:46:11 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-135.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:46:28 schmx [n=schme@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:46:49 -!- _death [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 18:47:08 _death [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 18:47:36 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 18:48:07 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:49:05 -!- schmx [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:49:06 auclairb: you can use define-symbol-macro for that 18:49:45 stassats, i'll take a look at define-symbol-macro 18:49:46 tomoyuki28jp: search CLiki for unicode. Quick hint, look for flexi-streams and cl-unicode. 18:50:42 auclairb: and it will be not variable, just syntactic abstraction 18:50:51 tmh: Thanks for your advice. I am currently using flexi-streams, and rfc2388 only accept latin-1 encoded contents when I upload binary file. I will take a look at cl-unicode. 18:50:55 and your code will be not very easy to understand 18:52:17 schmx [n=schme@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:52:43 tomoyuki28jp: Ah, sorry, didn't quite understand what you were asking. 18:53:06 tmh: oh really? I am taking a look at the unicode library. 18:53:39 bill[af] [n=bill@208.86.227.157] has joined #lisp 18:53:45 I am using rfc2388 (http://www.cliki.net/rfc2388) with flexi-streams right now. 18:54:02 well, encode it with flexi-streams 18:55:16 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:24 stassats: Does flexi-streams have a function to convert encoding of strings? 18:58:11 http://weitz.de/flexi-streams/#external-formats 18:58:51 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=jap@217.149.188.62] has quit ["When two people dream the same dream, it ceases to be an illusion. KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net"] 18:59:17 user_ [n=user@p54927F21.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:18 stassats, looks I'm still not thinking entirely in lisp, I'll go reread pcl, thanks for your help 19:00:15 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 19:00:48 what you are to accomplish with this? 19:01:24 stassats: When I use utf-8 flexi-stream and post data have binary file, I get error like "Unexpected value #x93 at start of UTF-8 sequence.". That's why I am asking. 19:01:44 -!- schme [n=schme@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:02:01 stassats: I don't get the error if I use latin-1 flexi-stream, but utf-8 text don't work in that case. 19:02:40 hmm if I understand a custom FORMAT function invoked with ~/ cannot be made to not require any argument? 19:03:04 -!- spec[afk] [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:03:24 tomoyuki28jp: Your post data is encoded in UTF8, but you want to use it with rfc2388? 19:03:33 spec[afk] [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 19:04:08 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:31 tmh: multipart post data have both of upload files (both of binary and text) and post data. I want to encode only the posted data. Make sense? 19:04:44 -!- karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:04:44 tomoyuki28jp: wait, you want it to work with utf-8 or latin-1? i don't understand 19:05:38 stassats: I want to encode only the posted data in utf-8. (not the uploaded binary file data) 19:07:45 => latin-1 => utf-8 19:09:11 Maybe I should use latin-1 for whole data to parse, and convert only the text file encoding after parsing? 19:09:37 tomoyuki28jp: If I understand it correctly, you'll have to modify rfc2388 to handle utf-8 data. 19:10:15 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:25 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus_ 19:10:40 tmh: If I use utf-8 flexi-stream, I get error like ""Unexpected value #x93 at start of UTF-8 sequence."'. 19:11:01 tmh: That's why I have been struggling. 19:11:26 because you feed it not utf-8? 19:11:40 DeusExPikachu [n=DeusExPi@wireless-169-235-38-161.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 19:13:16 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 19:14:23 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-93-104-35-241.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 19:14:37 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:22 Here's what may be a FAQ --- I want to have two pieces of my program write to each other. I understand that I can use a two-way stream to do this, but to be honest, I'm not sure what kind of streams to use for the underlying input and output streams. Thanks! 19:15:53 auclairb annotated #74802 with "cant go around with closures" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74802#1 19:16:19 oops, should read, can go around 19:18:00 auclairb: (defun wr (&optional new) (if new (setf (x rc) new) (x rc))) and (wr 4) 19:18:54 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-8523845c4a7061a5] has joined #lisp 19:20:49 tomoyuki28jp: Sorry, I don't understand the problem well enough to help. 19:20:51 but what's wrong with just (x rc) and (setf (x rc) 4) ? 19:21:32 (beside a few character longer) 19:21:52 tmh: Thanks for your kindness. You did help me enough, I appreciate :) 19:22:46 Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has joined #lisp 19:22:51 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F555.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:00 auclairb: Why on earth do you want something like that ? :) 19:24:08 rpg: if you want to use streams, two pipes would be ok, otherwise you could use two mailboxes and send messages 19:24:38 stassats: I have a class that represents a "path", that will modify a variable according to its value and some other data, multiple instance of the path class should be able to modify different slots of a position instance 19:25:07 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.66.92] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:25:11 so that multiple slots move in the same path 19:25:51 you have slots, why do you need variables? 19:26:26 (though, i don't quite understand what you said) 19:26:30 fe[nl]ix: Do I understand you correctly to say that this is something that's not done in portable ANSI CL? Or is there some way to set up a file stream as a unix pipe? [I'll go look into this now]. Thanks! 19:28:27 rpg: you want two instances of your programm to communicate? or to communicate within one instance of the programm? i.e. what "two pieces of my program" mean/ 19:29:14 fr33fall [n=fr33fall@199-203-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:52 rpg: AFAIK you can't do that with ANSI CL, unless you resort to temporary file(s) as communication channel 19:30:55 stassats: There are two pieces of the same program. Roughly speaking there are two communicating coroutines. 19:31:20 fe[nl]ix: Thanks. This doesn't absolutely have to be portable, but I wanted to make sure I wasn't missing a portable solution. 19:31:24 Good evening. 19:31:34 Hello beach. 19:31:41 hi beach 19:31:52 quamaretto [n=millij@70.228.181.122] has joined #lisp 19:31:56 rpg: are they in the same image? 19:31:57 rpg: The portable solution might involve gray streams. 19:31:59 What did I miss? 19:32:38 stassats: Yes, they are. 19:32:58 I.e., a pair of coroutines, not communitcating proceses... 19:33:00 avdi [n=avdi@216.230.102.194] has joined #lisp 19:33:22 Soulman [n=kvirc@42.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:33:27 nyef: Portability isn't essential here, I was just checking to see if it was possible to do this portably. 19:33:36 beach: Lisp has finally become "popular". 8-) 19:33:53 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 19:34:01 stassats, i dont really want variables, I just want to say to a instance of a class : "Work on (x pos), use it as if it is were yours" 19:34:02 tmh: wow! Amazing! I need to find a different language then! :) 19:34:07 Actually, I vaguely recall a discussion on the SBCL mailing list about setting SBCL_HOME from the --core argument. 19:34:08 indeed 19:34:44 stassats, a pointer would be used in C *shy* 19:34:58 I had to debug a problem reported by my colleague today wrt --core and it took me a few hours. 19:35:41 auclairb: you want two instances to share the same slot? 19:35:55 fe[nl]ix, stassats: thanks. 19:36:24 auclairb: you can put contents of the slot into cons, for examplae 19:36:34 stassats, no an instance of one class modify the slot of another class 19:36:58 stassats but i want to be able to says which slot 19:37:18 auclairb: It's difficult to understand your question because you don't seem to be using Lisp jargon correctly. 19:37:38 put mutable data into slots, it'll be similar to c pointers 19:38:29 (make-worker :work-on (slot-a some-class)) (make-worker :work-on (slot-b some-class)) 19:38:43 is this any clearer ? 19:39:39 auclairb: I think so. I'd use a LET binding in MAKE-WORKER to work on the values locally, then SETF the new values back to the class at the end. 19:40:10 auclairb: Earlier, you were storing the position in a list. In that case, you can use a LET binding to the list and operate on it directly. 19:41:41 i don't get it .. why do we care about the slots of classes here. 19:41:44 tmh, the work only happens when I call (work worker-a) 19:42:20 Or, I still may not understand your problem, quite possibly not even understand Lisp and am just rambling random BS. 19:42:23 stassats annotated #74802 with "for auclairb" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74802#2 19:42:30 auclairb: something like that? 19:43:03 stassats: how about (defstruct pointer (ref)) rather than CONS. 19:43:11 drewc: whatever 19:43:13 -!- quamaretto [n=millij@70.228.181.122] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:43:14 -!- H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0F555.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:43:28 stassats: how would you write pointerp using the CONS method? 19:43:30 ;) 19:43:50 i wouldn't 19:44:07 stassats: can you do that without using lists ? 19:44:18 auclairb: see what drewc said 19:45:18 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:45:31 drewc: but if i would, (cons 10 'pointer) (defun pointerp (cons) (eql (cdr cons) 'pointer)) 19:45:48 tsv [n=tsv@92-237-136-172.cable.ubr16.aztw.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:46:36 stassats: i'd accept that, but only changing 'pointer to +pointer+ and (defconstant +pointer+ (gensym)) or something. 19:47:48 So basically I must use something to box the value in order to do what I want ? 19:47:57 this is only because the overloading of CONS drives me nuts, i wish there were real lists! 19:48:32 auclairb: yes. This is how most programming languages work. 19:48:45 drewc: what would a /real/ list look like to you? 19:49:19 object with type ist? 19:49:26 list, rather 19:49:28 aggieben_: (type-of (list)) -> LIST 19:49:43 drewc: Your statement scares me. Does this mean I need to go back and read Xah's rant on the "CONS problem"? 19:50:03 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:06 tmh: beleive it or not, all of Xah's rants are worth reading. 19:50:45 I've written a lot of lisp and not once have I ever missed pointers to stack variables 19:51:15 do closures fit? 19:51:24 *dlowe* enjoys reading Xah's rants as well. 19:51:26 drewc: I totally disagree, simply because the amount of effort it takes to filter out the nonsense from the actual point he is trying to make negates the benefit, at least in the ones I've made a real effort to read. 19:51:47 Xah pointed something out I found very illuminating, lisp has syntax: ' ` , ,@ etc 19:51:59 tmh: try harder. What you reject as nonsense may be genius that's simply beyond you. 19:52:08 tmh: i'm not saying it is, mind. 19:52:18 tmh: just that it's possible :) 19:52:24 Cheshire: you can ignore it and not use 19:52:30 drewc: If that is the case, then it's beyond me and still a waste of my limited faculties. 19:52:35 stassats, irrelevant 19:52:47 we use '(x y z) instead of (' (x y z)) 19:52:51 drewc, flying pigs are possible too, it's the landing that's problematic 19:52:59 instead of (quote ...) 19:53:27 Cheshire: lisp has always had syntax. 19:53:27 drewc: are you saying that thinking about the problems he poses is useful regardless of his proposed solutions? 19:53:53 Cheshire: '(1 2) is just syntax over '(1 . (2 . ())) 19:54:10 drewc, (I am not really a beginner at lisp so that is sort of patronizing) yes 19:54:17 drewc: and ' is over quote, and . is over cons 19:54:32 dlowe: in a less eloquent way, that's exactly what i'm saying 19:54:44 dlowe: I get annoyed because in many cases when I finally figure out what he is griping about, it is an issue that I was aware of, only didn't really care that much about it. 19:55:05 (quote (cons 1 (cons 2 nil))) 19:55:38 Cheshire: Well, if Xah pointed out to you that lisp has syntax, i had to think you didn't have much lisp experience. Sorry if i hurt your feelings. 19:56:49 Forest from the trees. Penny wise but pound stupid. 19:57:07 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit ["SUCK A GIANT DICK MR_FLEA"] 19:57:55 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 19:58:10 if you think his rants on _lisp_ are bad, try reading his rants on other things on his website 19:58:32 on "emacs is old"? 19:58:33 tmh: I like reading Xan because his arguments are often quite valid, if only from his point of view, bizarre though it may be 19:58:42 sorry xan, i mean Xah 19:59:36 his rants on the horrors of women and gays are particularly amusing 19:59:42 drewc: I didn't really wish to discuss Xah, I was seriously asking if I should read his CONS post again. I've gone over it a few times and skimmed Pitmann's post and still am not getting what the BIG issue is. 19:59:56 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:00:08 drewc, some day my arguments will also be quite valid but a bit bizarre :'( 20:00:24 is there a big issue, or do you all just have nothing better to do? 20:00:32 tmh: the real issue, to me, is that i'd like to display CONSes as CONSes and LISTs as LISTS. 20:01:04 separation between abstract and concrete data types? 20:01:07 -!- patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:01:20 drewc: Does that motivate you to evaluate Clojure, then? 20:01:59 tmh: i've been evaluating clojure actually. It's quite nice, but missing a few things i take for granted. 20:02:42 it's a shame it doesn't really have a CLOS-equivalent 20:03:04 drewc: But does it address the list issue in an acceptable way for you? 20:03:48 tmh: it does. The type system (and the literal syntax for the abstract types) are two features i've really come to enjoy. 20:03:59 i dont see what the big deal about clojure is 20:04:06 *hefner* doesn't get it either 20:04:18 for me it's STM. 20:04:21 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 20:04:21 but my view of lisp is fairly CL-entrified 20:04:33 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:04:50 drewc: Thanks, that gives me another view of the data representation issue. If I get enough views, I might understand what the issue is. 20:05:31 drewc stm is nice and all but i have yet to see it proven as a solution 20:05:46 if i wanted some of the features that clojure provides, i'd rather go to erlang 20:05:56 drewc: but what will give you that separation? 20:06:04 and i hate the prolog syntax 20:06:16 tmh: IMO, the only realy issue is that proper-list must be a SATISFIES type and the predicate must be 0(n). 20:06:20 xristos: that would entail writing stuff in erlang, though :) 20:06:44 (erlang provides very nice features, but is an impressively horrible language) 20:07:06 rsynnott well i tend to be practical rather than devotee 20:07:06 xristos: that's an acceptable opinion, if i didn't really like lisp so much. 20:07:11 thats why i like CL so much 20:07:31 it fits really well with what i do at the moment 20:07:43 i find STM works very well for me. I use it in CL as well for that matter. 20:07:58 but there's been projects that have tried to add erlang-like features, as well as STM to lisp. I don't know what their status is, though... I'm wondering why those aren't acceptable solutions. 20:08:16 sykopomp: i have used cl-stm with success. 20:08:21 maybe because they don't work ? (cant speak for stm) 20:08:31 Is there anybody here who has used rfc2388 package? 20:08:38 tomoyuki28jp: yes. 20:08:43 tomoyuki28jp: hunchentoot uses it, too. 20:08:53 the erlang-in-lisp projects are simple POC afaik 20:08:59 tomoyuki28jp: it is basically broken for anything but latin-1 20:09:20 tomoyuki28jp: use rfc2388-binar 20:09:30 -binary rather 20:09:43 we use that one in UCW and it's not entirely broken. 20:09:46 drewc: that's neat. I might try it, then, although I don't know how well it would mix with everything else. 20:10:00 sykopomp: then don't mix it with everything else. 20:10:25 drewc: Where can I find the rfc2388-binary package? 20:10:32 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.1] has joined #lisp 20:10:56 i never understand why people want to use all of CL in a transaction, action, or other codewalked code.. it's STM .. you should have little more than a SETF or a variable access in the transaction. 20:11:20 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 20:11:23 especially given that a transaction can and likely will be run more than once :) 20:11:27 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 20:11:50 tomoyuki28jp: just let me google that for you ;) 20:12:19 drewc: thanks a lot. I did searched for it, but couldn't find one. 20:12:54 drewc: Are you familiar with the site? :-) 20:13:28 tomoyuki28jp: http://letmegooglethatforyou.com/?q=rfc2388-binary 20:13:34 Aankhen``: you mean that one ^ :) 20:13:40 Precisely. ;-) 20:13:44 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:07 I miss JustF'ingGoogleit 20:14:17 Doesn't that still exist? 20:14:23 *Cheshire* wonders how much you lot get paid to advertise google 20:14:35 there should be a version that makes typos once every 100 searches or something 20:14:36 for extra realism 20:14:37 I just checked, it does. It was down for a while. 20:14:41 Cheshire: i get payed in fast accurate search results. 20:14:50 google needs more brand recognition? 20:14:51 Cheshire: It's a lot. I have to weigh it instead of count it. 20:14:52 H4ns: With rfc2388 package, there is no way to encode post data in utf-8? 20:14:54 Cheshire: pcl advertising is more profitable, actually 20:15:04 drewc: Thanks, I will take a look at it. 20:15:45 tomoyuki28jp: no problemo. It works for me (in ucw), so that says something. 20:16:18 drewc: Did you get a chance to see my revised patch for YACLML? 20:16:31 Chouser [n=chouser@pool-71-97-194-63.aubnin.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:48 drewc: This one is the latest? http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/repos/rfc2388-binary/ 20:17:38 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:58 Aankhen``: i did actually. Thanks for fully explaining the issue. You are absolutely correct, and as long as there is a *compile-tags* flag that switched between compile and run-time expansion, i think the patch is great. 20:18:25 *aggieben_* thinks Xah's rants on cons/lists is overblown 20:18:27 tomoyuki28jp: that's the one i use. 20:18:40 drewc: okay, thanks. 20:18:48 drewc: Ah, cool. The one I sent is static compilation, but now that I know it's okay I'll send you a version implementing what I said ASAP. 20:18:58 aggieben_: "Xah's rants are overblown" FTFY :) 20:19:43 Aankhen``: Ok, so i'll wait and push the full deal. 20:19:54 Right then. 20:19:57 I'm off to bed for now. 20:19:58 G'night. 20:20:00 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.157.233] has quit ["“It's World IP Day 2008, and that means a day for celebrating innovation... and the possible role that fascist Italy played i] 20:20:01 mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-135.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:44 drewc: thanks :-) seems he doesn't get macros (not that I really grok them....really), or even mapcar 20:23:45 NorthStar [i=email@89.180.41.141] has joined #lisp 20:24:33 aggieben_: there is a lot that Xah doesn't get, but there is a lot to be learning in understanding how/why he doesn't get it. 20:25:05 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-170-32.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:25:16 drewc: hey, adopted a troll? 20:25:42 H4ns: just some of his opinions :) 20:26:37 i'd take 10 xah lees in trade for harrop and that ruby guy. 20:26:59 *tmh* actually Laughs-Out-Loud 20:27:02 surely a sign of the decline of the CL community when drewc sympathizes with xah and thinks closure is really pretty neat 20:27:29 hefner: It's Clo>j puhlease? 20:28:12 2 syllable please, to indicate snobbishness. 20:28:20 closure, clojure and clozure 20:28:24 clo jour 20:28:26 now all we need is clodure 20:28:41 or clozhure 20:28:44 colgure 20:28:49 a very regrettable state of affairs 20:29:02 clogure even. 20:29:40 I like the idea of Clojure, running on the JVM, taking advantage of the java libraries, it just doesn't work for the things I do. I still like it. 20:30:10 i couldn't care less about the JVM and its libraries really... that's the part i don't like about clojure. 20:30:25 hai guys i has a new lisp!!! 20:30:54 hefner: invisible arc! 20:31:16 :) 20:31:33 hefner: clohure? 20:32:01 http://lemonodor.com/archives/001518.html <-- lolpg for those who weren't around. 20:32:52 *rsynnott* wonders was that actually paul graham who commented 20:33:29 I think he saw that, and spoiled the joke by actually releasing code 20:33:34 (minor web celebrities can be very touchy; I once got a comment from the jason calacanis person after making a derisive comment about his human-powered search engine) 20:33:47 -!- tsv [n=tsv@92-237-136-172.cable.ubr16.aztw.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit ["leaving"] 20:34:30 rsynnott: I don't think there is even one person on the web that hasn't received a derisive comment by jason calacanis 20:34:50 I believe it's how he makes a living 20:36:08 I prefer having various lisps out there even though CL is the one that best fits my programming. I use PLT-Scheme for fun. I keep looking at Lush, but can't justify investing the time to learn it because it doesn't seem maintained. Although, in theory, Lush is probably what I should be using. 20:37:04 i love writing code i clojure. reading it not so much. I feel the opposite way about CL. 20:37:55 hello antifuchs, long time no see! 20:38:02 hi beach! 20:38:16 CL is the first language i've coded in where i can look at 6 month old code, understand it, and not hate it. 20:38:45 +1 20:38:52 antifuchs: next spring party is Sunday May 17 in case you liked the previous one, and you happen to be in town. 20:38:58 ooooh 20:39:02 drewc: would make CL the "better" language according to a well known mantra 20:39:04 I'll make a note, but can't make promises 20:39:07 *that 20:39:19 things are in flux, most of all my physical location (: 20:39:19 -!- mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-223-135.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:39:24 xristos: agreed. 20:39:24 antifuchs: we really appreciated your presence! 20:39:47 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 20:40:11 antifuchs: in that case, who cares where you will come from :) 20:40:18 I it was a great party! 20:40:24 thanks! 20:40:44 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-222.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:40:51 (I should know whether I can come in April or so... until then, it's not certain which continent I'll spend the next year on) (: 20:41:13 antifuchs: I understand :) 20:41:48 antifuchs: I can modify the guest list a few days before the event. 20:41:57 excellent (: 20:43:42 *beach* moves bedwise 20:44:40 kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:47:21 -!- fgtech [i=nemesis@bnc1.shellium.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:49:11 oh, already evening. time dissapears when hacking. 20:49:57 or learning... 20:52:48 That too 20:53:39 It's possible to have multiple restart-cases for the same condition at various places on the stack at the same time, right? 20:53:51 plutonas [n=plutonas@kr-lun-13-152-233-83.3.cust.bredband2.com] has joined #lisp 20:54:19 Chouser: Yes, and the most recently established one will be used. 20:54:43 Chouser: If you want finer control, have a look at restart-bind. 20:54:52 i have some problem with slime, i think without beeing 100% sure that it started when upgrading sbcl, the problem is that starting slime leaves me at the * and doesn't even open the CL-USER> one (or whatever it should be called) 20:55:11 you can name them, right? and use invoke-restart to pick the one that should continue? 20:55:25 plutonas: slime-repl is no longer enabled by default. 20:56:01 Chouser: This is the point in our program where we refer you to the documentation and the excellent tutorial resources available. 20:56:30 nyef: heh. yeah, well, I've got some page from gigamonkeys open right here. 20:56:55 I'd like to get a sense of how common it is to use that complex a scenario. pretty rare I guess? 20:56:56 That's not a bad one. The chapter in the hyperspec about conditions is good as well. 20:57:31 AFAIHS, it's fairly rare to do anything more than basic use of the condition system. 20:57:58 nyef: and how do i enable it? there doesn't seem to be M-x slime-repl 20:58:04 nyef: ok, thanks a bunch. 20:58:23 plutonas: It's a contrib, so it goes in slime-setup. 20:59:56 but i run slime-setup 21:00:04 in my .emacs 21:00:12 just after require slime 21:01:58 plutonas: you also need (add-to-list 'slime-setup-contribs 'slime-repl) or something similar 21:02:28 xristos pasted "slime-setup" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74814 21:02:43 -!- fr33fall [n=fr33fall@199-203-dsl.kielnet.net] has quit [] 21:03:55 thanks xristos 21:04:43 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 21:04:44 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbfb03.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:05:11 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:19 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 21:06:32 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0F555.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:48 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F555.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:06:50 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 21:07:46 Pegazus [n=awefawe@host100.190-137-19.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 21:10:48 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fecade00-157.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:16:44 -!- BrianRice-mb is now known as BrianRice 21:19:31 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:23:16 -!- fualo [n=fualo@d170-106.primero-2.ucdavis.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:23:41 fualo [n=fualo@d170-106.primero-2.ucdavis.edu] has joined #lisp 21:30:02 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host190-245-dynamic.3-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 21:30:54 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 21:31:57 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 21:32:17 What is GBBopen? 21:32:38 What is an example of a use for GBBopen? 21:33:11 -!- s0ber_ [n=s0ber@118-160-163-230.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:33:29 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:50 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:37:14 *Chouser* finds http://bbtech.com/ 21:38:52 It is a blackboard system. I was reading through the Wikipedia entry for blackboard system and still don't fully appreciate the problems that GBBopen solves. 21:40:44 Thanks for the link, Chouser, now I'm reading through http://bbtech.com/papers/ai-expert.pdf . It looks like a better introduction to blackboard systems. 21:43:01 Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:44:01 then you're way ahead of me. :-) 21:45:20 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:45:48 -!- NorthStar [i=email@89.180.41.141] has left #lisp 21:46:20 -!- umis [n=umis@82.193.124.116.ipnet.kiev.ua] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:48:13 Chouser: Now I'm very intrigued. If I understand the concept correctly, GBBopen could be used to create, for example, an aircraft design program that automatically refines the design starting from a crude description and progressing as the knowledge of the design improves. 21:49:08 Furthermore, as the analysis is executing, you could develop new knowledge sources and add them to the system as a later date, further refining the analysis and design. 21:49:56 I really need to read more into this. It really fits with some concepts I've been kicking around for some time. 21:51:06 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fecade00-157.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 21:55:14 hefner annotated #74252 with "awesome cycle counting" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/74252#2 21:55:25 tmh: now you've got me intrigued.. i could never figure out what GBBopen actually was. 21:56:22 -!- ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:56:37 ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:56:52 drewc: Read through that paper. It gave me a much better idea. I'm not convinced it is completely applicable to any of the problems I work on, but I think it definitely has some ideas I could use. 21:57:01 -!- user_ [n=user@p54927F21.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:57:23 dysinger [n=tim@cpe-75-80-200-182.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:57:42 *drewc* is already on the third page :) 21:58:03 -!- davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:13 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-fecade00-157.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:05:21 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-238-145.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 22:05:58 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-086-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:08 tmh: heh. that paper makes me wish i had problems to work on that were complex enough to warrant the approach. 22:06:20 -!- fualo [n=fualo@d170-106.primero-2.ucdavis.edu] has quit [No route to host] 22:06:20 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-086-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:06:27 *drewc* slinks back to writing CRUD. 22:07:21 drewc: I think I have some design problems that could benefit, in particular if the design team is geographically dispersed with dispersed analysis tools. Also, I need to study how to apply AI to product design. 22:09:28 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 22:10:44 davazp [n=user@121.Red-79-152-91.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:44 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:13 -!- xan is now known as xan-afk 22:13:37 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-8.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:14:32 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:09 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:57 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:40 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:25:42 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 22:26:15 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:28:19 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4fab.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:25 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:36:22 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:39:09 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 22:46:50 Jabberwockey [n=Tumnus_@dslb-082-083-072-254.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:09 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-170-32.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:49:56 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:50:41 fualo [n=fualo@d170-106.primero-2.ucdavis.edu] has joined #lisp 22:51:10 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-248.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 22:57:14 parodyoflanguage [n=kevin@mmds-216-19-46-146.sqpk.az.commspeed.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:23 -!- gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-25.static.vologda.ru] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:02:04 gemelen [n=shelta@shpd-78-36-164-86.static.vologda.ru] has joined #lisp 23:07:09 Lain1 [n=Lain@c-71-224-213-131.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:24 ohuiyo 23:07:35 -!- Lain1 is now known as Lain 23:09:15 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit ["leaving"] 23:10:03 -!- Fulax [n=cyprien@pdpc/supporter/student/cnicolas] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:10:48 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-79.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:11:20 -!- Lain [n=Lain@c-71-224-213-131.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:11:40 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 23:15:03 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-79.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:17:50 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-93-104-35-241.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:19:26 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:20:19 -!- dwave [n=ask@062016208067.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 23:21:10 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:28:22 dwave [n=ask@062016208067.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 23:29:01 dwave_ [n=ask@062016208067.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 23:29:19 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@062016208067.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Client Quit] 23:29:42 mokogobo [n=mokogobo@pcp075691pcs.unl.edu] has joined #lisp 23:30:32 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 23:32:19 dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has joined #lisp 23:34:32 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:32 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:38:46 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:20 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:26 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:36 Hmm...I'm really confused on the whole :before, :after, :around stuff with methods. If I define say (defmethod foo :after ...) and a (defmethod foo ...), when does the "after" one get run? 23:44:21 TDT: I believe the recommended reading at this point is known as "the Keene book". 23:45:42 nyef: Ah ok, yeah, I have that book and it's next on my "to-read", but hoping to get through PCL beforehand 23:46:11 I guess I should just say "um..ok", for now, and kinda make a mental note to revisit this later. Although I do get curious pretty easily :) 23:46:23 ken-p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 23:46:49 stathis_ [n=stathis@ppp118-76.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:47:43 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-0689e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:47:51 aundro__ [n=aundro@220.104-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 23:47:54 -!- aundro_ [n=aundro@197.99-200-80.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:05 -!- dwave [n=ask@062016208067.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:54:50 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 23:54:50 -!- ltbarcly` [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-131-184.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:56:13 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 23:57:24 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"]