00:02:37 japhie, it's fully abstract, i.e. 'forms' and 'operators' are implemented using a developer api so if there's no 'form' for your use case, it could be written using the api 00:03:37 Oh, this sounds nice. 00:03:39 ('operators' are 'forms' of the form (operator-name . ...), forms can be anything) 00:03:55 i haven't implemented "destructuring" for vectors yet 00:04:22 it works like this: (list 37 (* 42 69) 666) 00:04:31 and i also miss a +-form 00:04:31 And syntax with pattern -> whatever instead of cond or case-like (pattern whatever whatever...) has any rationale? 00:04:51 then, developer api isn't set in stone yet and there are no tests written 00:05:05 in cl it looks... weird, and may confuse emacs' indenting 00:05:11 i don't like COND, it has too many parenthesis 00:05:33 yes, but it (a) indents well, (b) allows to use many forms for a pattern (implicit progn) 00:05:45 it indents fine for one-expression cases 00:05:57 I have personal dislike for constructs forcing me to write PROGN when I don't really have to ;) 00:06:12 -!- f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:06:12 you see, there's the possibility of matching multiple expressions against multiple patterns 00:06:15 but it's a de gustibus 00:06:35 oh, and that's what the -> does, yes? 00:06:50 separates patterns and the body 00:06:54 you see... 00:06:59 there are multiple expressions 00:07:26 and i need some way of finding out how many there are 00:07:50 i don't like wrapping the expression list in a list 00:08:02 A bit un-lispy, but lispy way would require maaaany parentheses 00:08:08 function calls would look bad, just like COND 00:08:19 -!- Hun [n=hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:08:23 speaking of which, i like arc's IF 00:09:13 ERC button overlay makes emacs dog slow, need to /clear 00:09:18 weirdo: just an or operator. 00:09:19 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has left #lisp 00:09:22 weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 00:09:42 but then, emacs 23.0 is soo slow with overlays 00:09:58 which (an or operator) subsumes multiple patterns 00:10:28 uh, no, it's different 00:10:35 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-f88bba096182eb69] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:10:37 there's of course an OR operator 00:10:44 weirdo: with arc, you mean implicit nesting? 00:10:51 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-9152ae1321218b02] has joined #lisp 00:10:59 but there's an option to match multiple expressions at once 00:11:09 it may be ubercool or uberconfusing, I can't decide ;) 00:11:27 like this: (toad-case 42 69 00:11:27 42 69 -> 'foo) 00:11:38 japhie, yep 00:11:54 _8david [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 00:11:59 i could just shadow IF, perhaps 00:12:23 Huh, I'd just match against a list to match a few expressions ;) 00:12:43 -!- CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:12:56 skipping parens makes code look convoluted, and requires attention from programmer and editor. 00:13:12 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-67-130-219.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [""That's our secret... we kill you with kindness. What's your secret?""] 00:13:14 But I even prefer Iterate to LOOP for esthetical reasons ;) 00:16:14 it looked really badly with parens 00:16:17 tru this: 00:16:38 (((list ...) (list ...)) (values a b)) 00:16:42 s/tru/try 00:17:24 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:49 it's linear-bounded for now, though i think of adding recursion :) 00:18:26 hmm, the present syntax isn't suitable for yacc/peg-style operation 00:18:38 andyzweb [n=andyzweb@pool-72-87-127-176.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:24 -!- EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net/"] 00:25:20 joshasdf [n=hara@wireless-169-235-33-104.ucr.edu] has joined #lisp 00:25:32 -!- andyzweb [n=andyzweb@pool-72-87-127-176.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 00:26:22 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:27:03 CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 00:27:18 Kickaha [n=Alex@156.87.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:27:21 Is there a way to express in a multiple-value-bind that I want to ignore some of the return values? 00:27:44 -!- Kickaha [n=Alex@156.87.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 00:28:02 z0d: (declare (ignore var)) 00:28:31 (as with any other var-introducing constructs) 00:29:20 matley [n=matley@83.224.141.99] has joined #lisp 00:30:21 anyone post a quick favorite alternative to "format"? 00:30:33 stassats`: But you nevertheless have to list the variables in the varlist, e.g. you can't do (multiple-value-bind (nil nil foo) ..) 00:30:57 z0d: yes, you are right 00:32:19 joshasdf: ? 00:32:27 joshasdf, WRITE :) 00:32:35 format seems quick 00:32:39 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-014-111.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:47 format seems ugly 00:33:07 Ya think? 00:33:08 but it's good enough for its purpose 00:33:26 joshasdf: There's an out macro out there. 00:33:32 sorry, not quick I meant on the top of your head quick 00:33:37 (fmt "~{~A ~AC~^ ~}" (apply #'append (get-sensors))) 00:33:52 hmm, that one isn't ugly enough 00:33:54 I was looking at the out macro 00:34:04 joshasdf: format is my favorite alternative. 00:34:08 weirdo: that's a very simple format control string 00:34:12 "~{~{~A~^ ~}~^ ~}" - that one's ugly enough 00:34:27 or that one - "^6*~2,'0d^B:^b~2,'0d^B:^b~2,'0d ~A ~A ~A" 00:34:43 oh, i like that better 00:35:04 a little bit of APL never hurts 00:35:21 Almost like Perl golf. 00:35:30 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:40:46 f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 00:41:23 Hmm, makes me think... macro for constructing format controls from readable sexpr at compile-time? 00:41:33 should be doable 00:42:05 Good luck. 00:42:31 format's better, i think 00:42:36 the whole purpose is to be short 00:43:15 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-028-211.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:43:18 weirdo: sometime it gets complex, and it may be better to be more readable in some cases 00:43:39 http://www.weitz.de/cl-interpol/ may also be interesting for quick and simple cases 00:45:33 interpolation's not my sort of thing... 00:45:35 That's not at compile time though. 00:45:43 but then again, i don't deal with FORMAT that often 00:46:00 Which I still wish you best of luck with. 00:46:11 schme: no, that's runtime instead of FORMAT. 00:46:18 japhie: ? 00:46:30 japhie: it looks like macroexansion to me. 00:46:35 + the p 00:46:44 You use cl-interpol instead of format, not with it 00:46:48 Sure. 00:46:53 ${foo} expands variables 00:46:57 so it has to be runtime 00:47:24 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 00:47:33 but the really interesting part is Perl-like regexp quoting. This may be actually useful. 00:47:33 I think we are not talking the same thing. 00:47:48 I read it as you want to macroexpand at compile time. 00:48:13 There are two different ideas. Macroexpansion from list to a format string is one, at compile time. 00:48:32 And then I linked to cl-interpol, which is a whole alternative to FORMAT. 00:49:11 Normally macro expansion is before compile time though, no? 00:49:24 Like that cl-interpol does it before runtime ? 00:49:53 cl-interpol does have to macroexpand to something, sure 00:49:58 Well ya. 00:50:01 but it has to do stuff at runtime as well 00:50:22 * (let ((a 42)) 00:50:22 #?"foo: \xC4\N{Latin capital letter U with diaeresis}\nbar: ${a}") 00:50:22 "foo: Δά 00:50:22 bar: 42" 00:50:30 I'm just wishing you luck with your macro expansion there at compile time. I have no idea how I'd do that myself. 00:50:32 -!- mrSpec [n=NotMe@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:50:53 Yes. I read the page. 00:51:34 Meh. Either you're nitpicking that I didn't use term "macroexpansion time", which would be more correct, or I don't understand you ;) 00:51:48 No I might have misunderstood it all. 00:51:57 I'm just wishing you good luck on your project, that's all. 00:51:59 macroexpansion at compile time? 00:52:08 there's some macroexpand-all support across impls 00:52:51 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:58 well anyway. time for bed. it's 2hrs till the clock goes off :) 00:53:46 -!- matley [n=matley@83.224.141.99] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:56:00 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-182-21-126.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:57 -!- f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:17 sctb [n=sctb@adsl-71-135-98-155.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:53 -!- younder [i=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 01:01:24 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 01:03:11 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:06:40 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:35 f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 01:11:40 -!- japhie [n=japhy@213.192.75.1] has quit [] 01:14:49 -!- xan-afk [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:15:43 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:17:36 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:19:29 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:19:48 -!- cads_awaay [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 01:20:00 weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 01:21:09 tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 01:23:00 -!- tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has left #lisp 01:26:55 tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 01:26:57 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 01:27:14 -!- tfb|away [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:27:44 -!- f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:32 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:37:43 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:38:18 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:35 f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 01:42:41 -!- joshasdf [n=hara@wireless-169-235-33-104.ucr.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:57:00 -!- f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:58:40 -!- eaumontab [n=abeaumon@249.pool85-49-126.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:59:03 aumontabe [n=abeaumon@249.pool85-49-126.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 02:00:08 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 02:06:48 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:11:37 f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 02:12:17 chrisliaw [n=chris@219.93.36.231] has joined #lisp 02:13:29 -!- aumontabe [n=abeaumon@249.pool85-49-126.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:15:40 weirdo pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73561 02:15:52 thought it might be of some use 02:16:13 too bad there's no way to get object identity as an integer 02:17:49 is that portable? 02:17:56 rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 02:18:26 a counter and a weak hash table. 02:18:31 stassats`, should be 02:18:49 pkhuong, hmm 02:19:00 weak hash tables aren't strictly portable as well :P 02:19:15 worst case, they're not weak. 02:19:22 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:37 weirdo: i meant, is the meaning of that portable? 02:21:17 or there is no meaning, just different things for different objects? 02:24:34 weirdo: that ordering may change after garbage collection 02:24:47 sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B9D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:25:59 mib_folg8m4c [i=47bb2329@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7de711ebf795c0ef] has joined #lisp 02:26:14 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:26:39 -!- mib_folg8m4c [i=47bb2329@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7de711ebf795c0ef] has left #lisp 02:26:47 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:27:44 -!- f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:27:59 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-9152ae1321218b02] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:31:13 aumontabe [n=abeaumon@249.pool85-49-126.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 02:35:28 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 02:36:17 sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4ADC0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:37:24 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4B9D0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:38:01 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:39:49 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 02:40:26 Which package would you recommend to use for sending email? 02:40:57 minion: cl-smtp? 02:40:59 cl-smtp: CL-SMTP is a simple lisp Networking Library that provides SMTP client protocol. http://www.cliki.net/cl-smtp 02:41:05 i've no idea what it is 02:41:59 stassats`: thanks. I also found out mel-base. 02:42:45 f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 02:43:17 sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4ACC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 02:44:03 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:46:28 rcy [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:58 dodobrain [n=freakabc@60-241-43-186.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:50:05 hello everyone. 02:50:35 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:50:38 So, I got GNU clisp installed and was playing around with it and reading some tutorials. 02:51:25 then I read about Scheme which apparently is also a lisp dialect. i'm aware clisp is also a dialect of lisp now. 02:51:40 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:51:41 not quite 02:51:52 clisp is an implementation of common lisp, dialect of lisp 02:52:04 Scheme is considered by some to be a "lisp". Lisp is actually a pretty big family of languages. Common Lisp is the dialect that clisp implements. 02:52:23 I want to know what is the difference between clisp and scheme and whether I should try to learn one or the other or both! 02:52:32 thanks for the correction. 02:52:37 don't call common lisp "clisp" 02:52:46 clisp is an implementation, Common Lisp is the language. 02:53:19 and you should learn both, since they both have their merits and flaws, just like any language. This channel is dedicated to Common Lisp, though, and that's my personal favorite :) 02:54:01 yes, I want to know which I should learn first 02:54:10 CL is meant to be a general-purpose multi-paradigm programming language, while Scheme has a much smaller specification (which doesn't stop implementers from expanding on the language and making it general-purpose as well) 02:54:29 If you want to be -told- what to do, I'll tell you to learn Common Lisp first :) 02:54:55 dodobrain: do you have experience with any other programming languages? 02:55:04 the reason I ask is because I know GIMP uses Scheme as the scripting language, and I can fool around inside gimp's scheme console or whatever it is called 02:55:31 sykopomp, c/c++/perl/python 02:55:45 minion: please tell dodobrain about that-dead-sexy-book 02:55:45 dodobrain: please look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 02:56:07 gimp uses rather limited scheme 02:56:19 dodobrain: If you want to learn Scheme, I'd recommend you check out SICP, and direct the rest of your questions about scheme to #scheme 02:56:27 (since we won't really answer them here...) 02:56:39 minion: sicp 02:56:40 sicp is not for scheme learning 02:56:40 sicp: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available gratis from (HTML), (texinfo) and (XHTML, PDF). Accompanying video lectures are available gratis at 02:56:41 -!- f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:57:11 no, i don't want to ask my scheme questions here. 02:57:46 dodobrain: to be fair, I imagine you could probably figure out GIMP scripting if you learned CL, and then figured out some of the differences. 02:57:51 meltingwax [n=meltingw@unaffiliated/meltingwax] has joined #lisp 02:58:08 The GIMP does not, as far as I know, use Scheme. It uses a parenthetical language that superficially resembles Scheme, called `script-fu', about which help can be found probably in a #gimp or ##gimp channel, but not in #scheme. 02:58:26 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4ADC0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:58:37 afaik, it uses tinyscheme 02:59:01 (new version) 02:59:01 Last I knew, script-fu was originally based on SIOD. 02:59:05 can lisp use objects as keys to associative arrays? 02:59:11 I guess I somehow made this conclusion: CL is a dialect of lisp, Scheme is a dialect of lisp. CL is probably closer to the ideas in the original lisp language/idea 02:59:29 Does `the original lisp language/idea' matter? 02:59:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Script-fu it's based on tinyscheme since 2.4. 02:59:34 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:21 Riastradh, perhaps it doesn't in reality. But a person who hasn't used either language might think so 03:00:28 the original idea doesn't matter as much as the fundamental idea 03:01:10 Originally, McCarthy was pretty confused about Church's papers, which is why dynamic scope by default took hold for so long. Fortunately, that mistake was rectified decades ago, and persists only in elisp, of the significant Lisps that remain. 03:01:14 yes, ok: fundamental idea. I don;t intend to start a flame war or something. note how I'm *not* cross-posting in both channels ;) 03:02:49 i want to have a way to reduce the plumbing 03:03:43 dihymo: sure it can use objects, but it will compare them only by identity, not contents 03:04:08 identity is what one would want 03:04:30 but contents would be a cool thing too 03:04:35 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:05:58 actually contents would be much more complicated 03:06:25 but hells yeah key by object 03:06:52 _me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 03:07:26 can lisp faithfully serialize an keyed by objects? 03:07:35 an array keyed... 03:07:40 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:07:58 An array, no. A hash table, yes. 03:08:05 ...er. 03:08:06 Excuse me. 03:08:14 mulligan [n=user@e178028163.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 03:08:21 I was answering an earlier question: `can lisp use objects as keys to associative arrays?' 03:08:22 my bad 03:08:41 hash is what I meant 03:09:00 um why do we need databases anymore then 03:09:08 *Riastradh* coughs. 03:09:14 lisp includes one virtually 03:09:24 -!- dodobrain [n=freakabc@60-241-43-186.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:09:24 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:09:24 -!- flazz [n=franco@qubes.org] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:09:24 -!- gz [n=gz@209.6.18.72] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:09:24 -!- me-so-stupid_ [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:09:28 Few people have terabytes of RAM ... many DBMS have terabytes of data. 03:09:51 fusss: for your blog, where are you storing posts/articles? in lisp objects/lists or in a DB? 03:09:54 Well, one can address terabytes of data without terabytes of RAM. 03:10:09 so we just need dynamic serialization 03:10:10 Sure; DBMS manages it, after lal. 03:10:13 felideon: clsql backend; for now using sqlite 03:10:51 is there any unix out there just based on lisp? 03:10:52 flazz [n=franco@qubes.org] has joined #lisp 03:11:05 dihymo: sure, dynamic serialization, indexing, transactions, and you'll have a lisp dbms. 03:11:17 fusss: cool 03:11:48 dihymo: unix? 03:12:08 brianj_otter, one can even address terabytes of data as memory without having terabytes of RAM. 03:12:23 mmap() perchance? 03:12:32 if anyone knows of a lisp based kernel that can do wifi that'll be fine 03:12:43 i just want a toy to play with 03:12:58 Swap. 03:13:05 VM then. 03:13:44 ACID test would be hard to pass with vm scheme. 03:13:48 dihymo: i don't think someone who has it will keep it in the secret 03:14:38 dihymo: so you can have an opportunity to make it 03:14:42 sohail [n=Sohail@d207-81-121-15.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:42 ok any lisp shells? 03:14:43 lush? 03:14:43 -!- masm [n=user@a83-132-153-17.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:15:04 sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4ACC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 03:15:04 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:15:09 dodobrain [n=freakabc@60-241-43-186.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 03:15:46 in the future all applications will have view source 03:15:56 in lisp 03:16:04 if there's a future 03:18:03 benny [n=benny@i577A0AD7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:18:15 dihymo: I think you should write a LispOS. 03:18:15 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:19:18 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:19:21 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:28 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:20:34 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:25 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p57B4ACC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:24:16 i would probably have a triumvirate libread, libeval, libprnt as opposed to libc with a libc frontend for legacy apps 03:24:22 dihymo: I've seen posts at comp.lang.lisp about using CMUCL as $SHELL in UNIX 03:24:32 dihymo: maybe that would be an interesting start? 03:24:34 f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 03:25:11 ok now if i can find a way to pay rent while goofing with it I will do it 03:26:18 -!- f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:28:13 -!- blitz__ [n=julian@2001:6f8:1194:c3d3:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:29:18 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:19 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:29:23 probably the env vars can be modular 03:32:15 Python has gone this way. It associates a module symbol with a Python-specific representation of the process environment. 03:32:33 os.environ is a Python 'dictionary' with name -> value mappings :) 03:33:22 Maybe you can do something similar, and export os::environ as an assoc list of (name value) pairs or even as a hash 03:33:58 I used to a parens phobe... now i don't care 03:34:27 of course i used to whine about typing my pw to go root 03:35:40 i see no reason to use lisp as an interactive shell 03:36:16 no reason to use or no reason not use? 03:36:42 i said what i mean 03:37:33 Using Emacs helped me overcome my original parenthesophobia. 03:37:39 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:38:07 ... and it serves most of the time as a 'Lisp environment' for most of my work: email, browsing, IRC, editing text and code. 03:38:27 can lisp load binaries 03:38:34 So I wouldn't expect a *lot* of extra gain by setting SHELL=/usr/local/bin/sbcl :) 03:38:42 sure it can 03:39:02 All the Lisp versions I have used on BSD support running 'external binaries'. 03:39:03 so lisp can launch say... x 03:39:15 or gdm 03:39:27 Things may get funny if you lose the REPL because X took over the terminal though :) 03:40:17 krimpet [n=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has joined #lisp 03:40:19 yes it can, this sort of questions become boring 03:40:37 cool 03:41:05 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:42:01 jhc_ [n=jhc@adsl-68-23-84-102.dsl.dytnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:08 appletizer [i=a@82-32-123-68.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:43:09 cl-launch 03:51:26 -!- keramida is now known as ker-afk 03:52:03 -!- chrisliaw [n=chris@219.93.36.231] has quit [No route to host] 03:53:32 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:07 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:54:37 -!- ker-afk is now known as keramida 03:56:12 ReiniUrban [n=chatzill@212-183-52-203.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 03:56:24 -!- jhc [n=jhc@75.52.174.8] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:58:33 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit ["leaving"] 03:58:40 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 04:00:05 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 04:03:45 chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.162.15.221] has joined #lisp 04:05:32 fusss: meh. i've got programmer's block. 04:06:09 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 04:06:26 I want to start writing Lisp code, but maybe I should simply start by settin up Huchentoot and get your basic sample app to run. 04:06:53 hunchentoot* 04:08:04 f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 04:08:52 -!- f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:08:54 felideon: get a web development gig and dive head first into it. nothing motivates like your credibility on the line and some $ on the other end of it :-) 04:09:38 sleven [n=hask@h100n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 04:10:26 wtf I cant think in Java at all. this sucks i have programmed for sveeral years in python and lisp and now i come to java to learn it for programming Android and my brain just melts down. it doesnt support abstractions much in the mathematical sense 04:11:11 just go away 04:11:27 Run as fast as you can? 04:11:27 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:11:32 sleven, for java I suggest use an IDE like eclipse or you'll tear your hair out 04:11:53 sledge, unless the project is small 04:12:01 don't talk to him, he is a troll 04:12:10 -!- sleven [n=hask@h100n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 04:13:00 fusss: haha 04:13:32 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-62-86.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:14:10 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 04:14:11 sledge: just consider yourself lucky you don't do Java for a living, and THEN learned lisp 04:14:13 'evening 04:14:49 any ops here? 04:15:21 Why do you ask? 04:15:22 today i got a little frustrated writing a C# app. it's the first time I said to myself "if only I had a Lisp macro". (i'm new to Lisp and just finally kind of understood macros recently) 04:15:46 C# has closures, though, doesn't it? 04:15:56 proper ones? 04:16:15 salex: yes, and even funky code generation 04:16:24 I thought there was a problem with closures on the runtime, but that was ages ago when I read it 04:16:27 pkhuong: nice. 04:16:29 well... it's kind of ugly but yeah they did add it 04:16:47 Zhivago: i suggest to ban hask@*.bredband.skanova.com, he come up here with different nicks and talk random nonsense 04:17:21 for a quite long time 04:17:30 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 04:17:57 -!- Zhivago has set mode +b %*!*hask@*.bredband.skanova.com 04:18:04 -!- Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago 04:18:14 thanks 04:18:19 I remember that user. 04:18:48 probably Xah Lee under disguise? 04:18:51 :) 04:18:54 No. 04:18:59 aside to whoever fixed CLX on OS X, thianks 04:19:02 *thanks 04:19:06 Xah Lee is very hard to disguise. 04:19:15 hehe 04:19:47 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-182-21-126.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:23:26 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:26:33 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:39 http://www.weitz.de/hunchentoot/#install 04:26:52 Zhivago: Hello 04:26:55 what's the easiest way to install all those lisp libraries? 04:27:02 ASDF-INSTALL? 04:27:07 cl-build 04:27:11 cl-build 04:27:21 Hello rtoy. 04:27:47 hey, rtoy! 04:27:58 Hey, salex! 04:28:10 how're you? 04:28:16 lovely 04:28:24 Not bad. And you? Still in Houston? 04:28:45 Yeah. on the market this year but it's looking like a rough year so i'm not holding out too much hope 04:28:55 Zhivago: I was in Korea last June. Tried to get a hold of you of then. 04:29:00 love/hate with academics at the moment... 04:29:21 I would have been in Japan or traveling then. 04:29:24 salex: You mean on the market for a new job? 04:29:42 I'm back in Korea now. 04:30:02 Zhivago: Too bad. Even made a trip to Jeju Island for sightseeing. 04:30:06 -!- sctb [n=sctb@adsl-71-135-98-155.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:30:10 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:20 rtoym: yeah, academic market here is very cyclic, hiring goin on now for sept 04:30:29 once a year, roughly 04:30:30 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.225.175] has joined #lisp 04:31:06 'course on the more "hate" days, I reflect that it's not a great year to go back to industry, either! 04:31:08 gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ce79d895b534d169] has joined #lisp 04:31:15 what have you been up to? 04:31:50 who 04:32:22 salex: Nothing much. Hacking cmucl a bit, hacking maxima. Playing with isync plugins. Grateful that I still have a job (for now). 04:32:38 rtoy: That's a pity. I could have shown you around. I lived on Jeju for three years. 04:33:02 isync plugins? what device(s) ? 04:33:14 Zhivago: Where are you now? We just hit the touristy spots. Jeju is a nice break from Seoul. :-) 04:33:43 salex: Z712 and W760i. W760i works reasonably well now. 04:34:02 bbiab.... 04:34:12 rtoy: Seoul. :) 04:34:17 cool 04:35:12 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:35:21 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:35:24 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 04:38:30 Zhivago: I was mostly in Seoul. 04:39:18 salex: Only issue is I sync my phone both to my mac and to my laptop at work. There's something different between them that confuses one or the other. 04:40:06 Zhivago: Anyway, at long last, cmucl has some unicode support coming. It's a bit different from what you had implemented way back when. 04:40:20 ah, right, cross platform sync can be messy 04:40:38 wow. what's new on the cmucl front? 04:40:44 *else 04:41:49 -!- chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.162.15.221] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:42:06 salex: The latest snapshots support both x87 and sse2, "transparently". I'm glad to get sse2. No more weird rounding behavior. 04:42:06 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:42:58 nice. maxima chugging along? I haven't looked recently. 04:43:07 honestly '08 was mostly a write off, lisp wise 04:43:13 i'm hoping for '09 to be better :) 04:43:25 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:48 Maxima is chugging along. There's a new guy who's added quite a few new special functions, with bigfloat values too. 04:43:53 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 04:44:04 sounds good 04:44:16 i've been stuck in matlab (urk) a fair bit lately 04:44:29 ah well. have to work with people 04:44:37 Rumor still has it that Macsyma will be free. Someday. But people have been saying that for years now. 04:44:55 yeah. they have. 04:45:13 it would make a certain amount of sense. but at this point .... ? 04:45:32 Actually, I think I'd prefer to use matlab instead of the huge C++ system we have with these bizarre classes that are a hodge-podge of stuff. 04:45:48 oh. yeah. that's no fun 04:46:00 but trying to use matlab as a general language isn't either. 04:46:07 sigh. 04:46:35 Matlab has gotten better. I just would like it for the command line and graphing. Makes experimentation so much easier. 04:46:59 *rtoym* would, of course, prefer Lisp and a real repl. :-) 04:47:01 oh, absolutely. i use it for that sort of stuff all the ime 04:47:04 *time 04:47:15 I've heard good things about R for that too 04:47:33 octave is nice for the linalg messing about, but not for graphing so much 04:47:46 eh. writing the pattern matcher with modular design isn't worth it 04:48:18 Maxima has a decent graphing package now. Still uses gnuplot, but it's pretty powerful. Not that I know how to use it very well. 04:48:31 stuff needs to 'know' about variables, else it's slow and crappy 04:48:46 gnuplot is ok for some things 04:49:43 04:49:43 ERC> Both perl and ghc can take about 3 hours each to compile from source. 04:49:51 damn 04:50:08 Zhivago: What do you think about unicode support that only has 16-bit chars and strings are internally utf-16? 04:50:10 should have just downloaded the binary 04:50:12 heh, that's nothing 04:50:33 i'm spending half my time right now on a system with a 6-8 hour build time from clean sources 04:50:37 which sucks a lot 04:50:51 heh 04:50:52 *rtoym* spends some 5 hours compiling gcc once in a while. 04:51:16 that's on a fastish dualcore with 4gb memor, fwiw 04:52:00 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-168-238-75.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:52:49 -!- f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:52:54 I guess that means you hope not to do that too often or that all of your dependencies are correct so make does the right thing. 04:53:06 f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 04:54:18 yup. the issue is it's tracking a bunch of stuff (including python, tcl, etc.) by building them all, and moving fastish. If a lower level lib changes it can touch a hell of a lot of stuff 04:54:46 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:56:18 anyway, enough whinging on my part 04:56:34 rtoym: your comment about still having a job -- has it been bad for you lot? 04:57:34 No, we've been lucky so far. Unlike our Sony-Ericsson friends in our building where almost half got canned a couple of months ago. 04:57:43 ouch 04:57:51 rtoym: Well, utf-16 implies surrogate pairs. I'm not really a fan of utf-16. 04:58:09 if you want to get rid of surrogate pairs, then you have UCS-2, which is a reasonable compromise for CL strings. 04:58:19 I still think that CL strings are the basic problem, though. 04:58:38 salex: But we're also merging to form a new company. They say no layoffs. Perhaps that's true for us for the most part. 04:58:47 hope so! 04:59:06 what's the win for utf-16, btw? 04:59:15 Yeah, although work is much fun anymore either. :-( 05:00:09 yeah. sometimes that's just why they call it work, i guess 05:00:46 Zhivago: Yeah, utf-16 was Carl's idea, based on what Allegro does and what ICU does. I was thinking of 16-bit base-char and characters for now. If utf-16 is troublesome, maybe adding 32-bit characters later. 05:00:48 utf-16 gives a slight efficiency win for CJK and indic scripts. 05:00:49 UTF-16 is slightly more compact for CJK text than either UTF-8 or UTF-32. 05:01:08 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178028163.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:01:14 Allegro doesn't do surrogate pairs with it, does it? 05:01:35 rtoym, presumably you already have 32-bit (or at least 21-bit) characters if you implement UTF-16. 05:01:42 Anyhow, I think that utf-8 has pretty much won the battle. 05:01:45 salex: Yeah, but for a long time I used to tell people I was going to play, not work. And it was fun for a while. 05:02:05 -!- roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has quit [] 05:02:05 If you're going for something bigger, then you might as well just do code points. 05:02:27 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.100.247] has quit [] 05:02:34 But, no-one that I know of uses utf-16 for CJK efficiency in any case. 05:03:13 Riastradh: Actually no. I never quite understood how Carl intended to deal with that, except maybe make the user deal with the surrogate pair issue themselves. 05:03:23 I've probably asked this before, but what exactly is SWANK? Or what's the difference between SLIME and Swank? 05:03:32 and SWINE for that matter 05:03:54 Zhivago/Riastradh: ok, that makes sense. but is that such a win in practice? 05:04:38 Zhivago: Well, we'll see how utf-16 goes. It might end up being just ucs-2. Carl seems no longer interested in unicode and/or cmucl. 05:04:48 ah? 05:05:17 Honestly, ucs-4 is pretty straightforward. 05:05:19 who all is working on cmucl these days? 05:05:28 gz [n=gz@209.6.18.72] has joined #lisp 05:05:35 salex: Nobody really. 05:05:39 -!- cheatcountry1 [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 05:05:41 salex: Not so as anyone apart from windows uses it. 05:06:39 The main advantage of UTF-16 is that it introduces an excellent source of bugs and misdesigns based on surrogate code points. 05:06:55 sounds sweet 05:06:59 Heh. 05:07:07 felideon: swank is a common lisp part of slime 05:07:19 All of the disadvantages of utf-8 with all of the disadvantages of 2 byte characters. 05:07:21 felideon: btw, swank is the cl server part of slime, slime the emacs part 05:07:32 oh ok. that makes sense 05:07:32 you can run swank remotely, which is nice 05:07:50 Carl speaks highly of ICU which uses utf-16, I think. 05:07:51 And Windows is an excellent source of examples of such bugs and misdesigns. 05:08:03 ICU ? 05:08:20 And if you want to interoperate with Windows and NTFS, you had better have a strong drink at the ready. 05:08:21 and you can use swank with something different than slime 05:08:52 salex: http://icu-project.org/ International Components for Unicode. 05:09:02 thx 05:09:13 i've managed to mostly stay in ignorance of this stuff 05:09:56 So have I. :-) I merely implemented the 16-bit char support. Paul has been doing the hard stuff with external formats and such. 05:10:46 Carl was doing the fast stream implementation for unicode. Don't know if I'll ever see that. 05:10:47 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:11:01 do you know why he lost interest? 05:11:10 shame, if so 05:11:20 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 05:11:35 why s/b if 05:12:01 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:12:23 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.225.175] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:12:41 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:57 stassats`: thanks 05:13:16 -!- jajcloz_ [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:14:00 arrays are slow :( 05:14:08 Use lists. 05:14:33 i'd use gensyms with dynamic scope, but that's dog slow on sbcl 05:14:33 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:14:35 oh 05:14:37 not dog lsow 05:14:42 crashing 05:14:56 on threaded builds 05:14:59 some arrays are pretty fast on sbcl; what are you doing? 05:15:41 -!- binarin [n=user@gwn.alt1.ru] has left #lisp 05:15:51 s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-164-106.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:09 hold on... i don't need dynamic scope with arrays, i could use lexicals, assign to them in an unwind-protect 05:16:18 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:16:30 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:38 salex: Not sure why. 05:16:43 k 05:16:48 anyway, 'night. 05:16:58 nice to see you again rtoy, Zhivago. 05:17:08 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:17:09 salex: Good night 05:17:31 but now my code really sucks, with mutating macroexpansion and evaluation order mattering a lot 05:18:03 wait, i don't need to mutate it... coding at 6am sucks 05:19:50 Zhivago: I was looking at your dialect stuff. That's kind of interesting. My wife said some of the words you used weren't quite right. :-) Or at least not exactly right. 05:20:34 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1E0AD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:32 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:47 rtoym: Yeah, it's hard to fix them into programming forms. 05:22:10 rtoym: Particularly 'if', which is usually used as a verb suffix and really means 'when' 05:23:02 -!- f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:23:02 segv [n=mb@p4FC1D6EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:23 rain falling-when umbrella with come-if good will-be. 05:23:59 for "it would be good if you bring an umbrella (if/when) it is raining". 05:24:33 I'll have to ask her. I've really forgotten the little bit of Korean that I learned. 05:24:35 Lisp doesn't deal well with synthesis :( 05:24:53 how do i do a do- macro with (block nil ...) but ,@body is inside a LOOP, which has its own nil-block? 05:26:08 ha! now my code runs as fast as mark tarver's 05:26:12 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:26:21 well, almost 05:26:48 Zhivago: Anyway, unicode (utf-16/ucs-2) support is there, with external formats. The missing piece is all the character attributes. As best as I can tell, you didn't implement that, right? 05:27:23 No. 05:27:36 Oh, you did? 05:27:47 No, I didn't. 05:28:25 Oh, ok. 05:29:17 That's another advantage of ucs-4 -- you have 11 bits left over for attributes 05:29:29 Or additional composed points, for thai or something. 05:29:38 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:29:50 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:05 I noticed that your implementation still used a256-element array for macro characters. Were you planning on increasing that someday? Or doing something else? 05:31:10 fodo [n=user@222.66.141.182] has joined #lisp 05:31:11 (The current unicode version uses 64K elements now, so readtables are really rather big) 05:31:25 I think that I was thinking that using a hash table for the extras would be a sensible idea. 05:31:43 With a min and max counter. 05:31:57 Min and max what? 05:31:59 That would eliminate the hash-table for applications that didn't use weird macro characters. 05:32:12 Ah, ok. 05:32:17 min and max non-default macro character values 05:32:31 So initially they'd be in the 0 to 127 range or whatever. 05:32:51 you'd only build a hash-table if you went out of the basic character repertoire 05:33:35 I think Carl wanted a 2 or 3 level trie, as shown in some ICU documents. They claim it's small and very fast compared to a hash table for holding attributes and stuff. 05:34:06 Sure, but to be honest, how many of these do you expect to have as non-constituents? 05:34:13 f7b5 [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 05:34:19 (Or am I confusing things again?) 05:34:32 No, tries beat hash-tables if done well. 05:34:33 Heh. None actually. 05:35:09 But, since I'd expect relatively few weird characters ... 05:37:11 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:38:21 I guess I should reconsider how that's done in the readtables. But maybe an optimization for later.... 05:38:36 *rtoym* needs to go. It's getting late here. 05:39:01 Take it easy. 05:39:40 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:39:44 Zhivago: You too! Good night. 05:39:49 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120121]"] 05:41:50 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has quit [] 05:43:34 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:44:17 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:44:28 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:47:08 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.74.10] has joined #lisp 05:48:31 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-132-11.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:52:08 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:52:56 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:41 -!- aumontabe [n=abeaumon@249.pool85-49-126.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:00:04 umontabea [n=abeaumon@249.pool85-49-126.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 06:04:35 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 06:05:40 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:48 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:09:59 netaustin [n=austinsm@cpe-67-243-48-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:11:36 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0AD7.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:14:26 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:14:36 -!- gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ce79d895b534d169] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 06:16:54 benny [n=benny@i577A0F9D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:17:34 -!- f7b5 [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:18:10 f7b5 [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 06:19:10 () 06:19:30 '() 06:19:44 does anyone else see a vagina when they look at that 06:20:12 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 06:20:17 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Zhivago 06:20:30 -!- Zhivago has set mode +b %meltingwax!*@* 06:20:38 -!- Zhivago has set mode -o Zhivago 06:22:06 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-217-174.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:23:58 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:23:58 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:24:16 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:42 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:27:44 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:34 -!- dodobrain [n=freakabc@60-241-43-186.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:31:25 meltingwax: You need a rounder font. 06:35:23 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 06:36:00 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:36:14 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:32 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:45:45 karlw [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:57 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:47:48 If anyone's interested, I made a posting to comp.lang.logo about implementing Logo in Common Lisp. 06:50:09 lambda [n=lambda@c-24-5-198-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:29 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:52:51 -!- f7b5 [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:53:06 f7b5 [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 06:55:14 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 07:04:56 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 07:06:14 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:07:45 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:08:04 hello lispers 07:08:51 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:09:03 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:09:16 in my asdf:defsystem I have :in-order-to ((test-op (load-op :claw-cms-tests-backend))) . What do I have to do if I want to load :claw-cms-tests-frontend too ? 07:12:09 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:13:42 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:14:07 doesn't in-order-to ((test-op (load-op :claw-cms-tests-backend :claw-cms-tests-frontend))) work? 07:15:13 (it seems so from documentation, haven't tested it) 07:15:14 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:16:27 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:44 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-232-155.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 07:17:50 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:57 stassats`, let me check 07:19:30 stassats`, yes thx, for some misterious reason it gave me some 'undefined funcion' but it must be because I haven't already got my coffee :) 07:21:17 -!- karlw [n=user@adsl-99-157-202-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 07:22:07 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:23:08 f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 07:23:45 -!- f7b5 [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:25:12 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:26:16 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:28:20 good morning 07:31:08 Jabberwockey [n=jens@p508EDC05.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:24 -!- X-Scale2 [i=email@89.181.1.56] has left #lisp 07:33:21 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4a47.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:33:53 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:33:54 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:38:09 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 07:38:50 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:52 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 07:42:47 Hi 07:44:54 mmstud [n=mmstud@62.236.208.151] has joined #lisp 07:49:33 TimoT [n=tt@dhcp-pr-17.tml.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 07:49:33 Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 07:50:04 Absent [n=administ@62.64.106.136] has joined #lisp 07:52:23 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:53:07 f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 07:53:28 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:46 tfb [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has joined #lisp 07:53:56 -!- f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:00 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 07:57:28 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 07:57:36 is the sbcl ffi ok on x86_64? 07:58:09 I'm having strange memory faults when calling plain C functions that don't crash in C 07:58:11 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:58:15 works fine on linux x86_64 07:58:27 hmm.. with C99? 07:58:29 -!- tfb|away [n=tfb@restormel.cley.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:58:41 does that matter? 07:59:29 -!- ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:00:58 TimoT: you can post your function and ffi code, maybe someone could help 08:01:02 lisppaste: url 08:01:02 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 08:01:23 my bad, i guess it's from computing array addresses in 32 bits :( 08:06:12 is the memory layout for arrays different btw 08:06:24 or rather the header part 08:09:38 [Koba] [n=chatzill@resnet-pat-254.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:12:37 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 08:13:52 <[Koba]> hiya..new lisper here 08:14:15 <[Koba]> I'm wondering why my newly installed slime won't open a REPL 08:14:41 set slime setup to include slime-fancy 08:14:50 in .emacs 08:15:01 <[Koba]> ah ok.. 08:15:08 (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) or something like that 08:15:16 <[Koba]> thanks 08:15:41 <[Koba]> excellent :-) 08:15:46 <[Koba]> that was a quick fix! 08:16:21 I stumbled on the same problem a week ago, it's a new thing in slime cvs apparently 08:16:22 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4a47.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:17:14 <[Koba]> which explains.. 08:17:34 <[Koba]> any idea what this stuff does.. 08:17:38 <[Koba]> (custom-set-variables 08:17:40 <[Koba]> '(load-home-init-file t t)) 08:17:41 <[Koba]> (custom-set-faces) 08:17:54 <[Koba]> found it in my old .emacs 08:18:01 you can load different components in slime-setup and slime-fancy loads a bunch of often used things. plain slime-repl might be more efficient (emacs seems to take forever to start on my old athlon-xp) 08:18:12 it sets customization variables 08:18:27 <[Koba]> and this one does what exactly? 08:19:01 stassats`: is there an equivalent of vector-sap for multidimensional arrays in sbcl? 08:19:50 TimoT: i'm not very good at sbcl's ffi, don't know offhand 08:22:20 <_8david> TimoT: multi-dimensional arrays are actually just an "array header" with the data backed by a separate simple array 08:22:43 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 08:22:49 and the simple array can be accessed with? 08:23:02 <_8david> using WITH-ARRAY-DATA 08:23:03 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:07 f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 08:23:17 ok. thanks 08:23:47 -!- f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:24:18 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:24 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:24:35 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:35 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:26:11 -!- rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:26:19 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:26:37 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:27:22 ramkrsna_ [n=ramkrsna@59.160.127.177] has joined #lisp 08:28:07 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:28:45 <[Koba]> hi, any suggestions on how best to setup emacs with clbuild/ASDF? 08:29:56 <[Koba]> should I add a line to .emacs to make slime open in the clbuild libraries directory or some such? 08:30:13 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-096-177.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 08:30:28 <_8david> "clbuild slime" starts emacs with slime for you automatically. Works best if you DON'T have hand-written slime stuff in .emacs. 08:30:52 <_8david> (You can also use "clbuild slime-configuration" and paste the output into .emacs.) 08:30:59 <[Koba]> damn, I might simlink to that then instead.. 08:31:10 <[Koba]> ok, and non-slime stuff is fine in .emacs then 08:32:02 <[Koba]> ok, ./clbuild slime doesn't work as I installed slime outside of clbuild 08:32:09 <[Koba]> I'll try the other way and edit the paths 08:32:50 yay it works (my asm optimized l2 dist eval) 08:33:04 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:12 <_8david> any particular reason you don't use "clbuild install slime"? 08:33:58 <[Koba]> thinking about it, I'll do that now instead 08:34:12 <[Koba]> habit out of having to set up slime on Uni computers without access to clbuild 08:34:27 ignas [n=ignas@85.206.184.35] has joined #lisp 08:34:40 <_8david> (I can understand when people don't want to use clbuild at all, but mixing clbuild use with non-clbuild-installed stuff can lead to surprising results.) 08:35:15 <[Koba]> thanks for the advice, it is all working now 08:36:14 _8david so a way to get a pointer to a multidimensional array by index would be (sap+ (vector-sap data) (* data-size (+ start row-major-offset))) 08:36:33 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 08:37:37 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:37:38 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:38:18 -!- meltingwax [n=meltingw@unaffiliated/meltingwax] has left #lisp 08:40:32 I had some very stale code for that lying around (originally for CMUCL on plain x86) 08:40:41 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:18 -!- umontabea [n=abeaumon@249.pool85-49-126.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:43:50 <[Koba]> anyway, thanks for the help all! 08:44:21 <[Koba]> lecture by Philip Wadler now ;-p 08:44:47 -!- |stern| [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-183.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:45:43 <[Koba]> see ya! 08:45:54 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-174.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:45:55 -!- [Koba] [n=chatzill@resnet-pat-254.ucs.ed.ac.uk] has left #lisp 08:47:52 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 08:52:42 -!- f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:53:01 f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 08:53:39 schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8d830965688895f6] has joined #lisp 08:56:57 -!- TimoT [n=tt@dhcp-pr-17.tml.hut.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:00:19 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:00:32 umontabea [n=abeaumon@249.pool85-49-126.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 09:03:29 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:06:29 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 09:10:55 -!- krimpet [n=fran@wikimedia/Krimpet] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:11:34 -!- schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8d830965688895f6] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 09:12:12 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:33 rumbleca [n=rumble@174.0.46.123] has joined #lisp 09:16:10 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:17:45 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 09:24:28 I need to remofe from a path the first slash if it appears in a string like "/home/main/index.html" is cl-ppcre to use in this simple case? if yes, how the regex string should be? (cl-ppcre:regex-replace "([^/])?([.])*" "/home/kiuma/pippo.html" "\\2") doesn't work 09:25:13 (regex-replace "^/?" string "") 09:25:27 (regex-replace "^/" string "") even 09:27:02 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 09:27:10 H4ns, thanks ! (I recognise it was a dummy question :/) 09:28:02 f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 09:28:26 -!- f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:28:26 (string-left-trim '(#\/) "/home/main/index.html") (removes all slashes in the beginning) 09:31:18 stassats`, is it better then regex ? 09:31:36 stassats`, I mean does it performs better ? 09:31:44 *perform 09:31:46 kiuma: do you call the function a lot? 09:32:11 at the beginning of a request dispatch 09:32:21 *http request 09:32:24 kiuma: if not, chose the variant that you think is easier to read. you're not a regex expert, so sting-left-trim should be clearer 09:32:25 kiuma: don't know, test it 09:32:47 kiuma: you'll max out below 1000 requests/second, so the performance difference between the two will not matter. 09:33:19 deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 09:33:48 H4ns, ok thanks, maybe string-left-trim better fits my needs and my current knowledge 09:34:16 I'm very insecure on regex 09:34:48 ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.51.84] has joined #lisp 09:35:36 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.134.209] has joined #lisp 09:39:08 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:40:10 etate [n=malune@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:42:35 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:42:40 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-26-82-254-81-70.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:43:29 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:43:29 -!- umontabea [n=abeaumon@249.pool85-49-126.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:43:50 montabeau [n=abeaumon@249.pool85-49-126.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 09:44:37 f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 09:46:56 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-26-82-254-81-70.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:13 mega1 [n=mega@3e70c8bf.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:48:20 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 09:51:48 beach [n=user@58.186.158.103] has joined #lisp 09:51:53 Good afternoon. 09:52:31 beach: Hmm, I think it's a mistake to say that functions and variables are in different namespaces in CL. 09:52:51 Maybe saying different contexts would be better. 09:53:10 Zhivago: Except that then you would have to define "context". 09:53:23 Well, lexical contexts. 09:53:33 You still have to define it. 09:53:49 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:54:06 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 09:54:24 That's easy enough. It's the context defined by the text that the name is embedded in. It's the same as for natural language. 09:54:46 Sure, why not. 09:54:49 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:55:28 Then it's clearer that the multiple namespaces are defined by packages, and that (+ a b) and + use the same name +. 09:55:36 g'day 09:55:45 hello schme 09:55:59 Top of the world to ya, beach 09:56:21 -!- f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:56:55 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 09:58:22 The dichotomy happens after the symbol, not before. 10:01:41 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:40 hello beach 10:03:07 hey mvilleneuve. Is it getting any warmer in Bx? 10:03:08 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 10:04:45 beach: yes, it has been warmer since yesterday 10:05:29 manic12_ [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:58 hmm. I'll have to find out how to write the "degree" character using an us-international keymap 10:06:29 C-x 8 o in emacs 10:07:28 mvilleneuve: in Emacs, I use // in some latin-1 input method. 10:08:41 CHJA [n=christia@79.138.177.199.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 10:08:49 C-x 8 o works, thanks stassats` 10:09:04 `C-x RET C-\ latin-1-prefix RET' 10:09:11 But `C-x 8 o' is faster 10:10:51 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:12:50 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 10:14:41 f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 10:16:19 nunojsilva [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 10:17:37 eevar2 [n=jalla@225.89-10-30.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:18:52 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:20:19 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-174.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:22:55 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:24:22 -!- Absent [n=administ@62.64.106.136] has left #lisp 10:26:56 -!- f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:27:45 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:09 japhie [n=japhy@vide-sat.pl] has joined #lisp 10:33:27 kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:27 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:33:30 -!- etate [n=malune@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:37:07 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:37:41 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:39:43 -!- kejsaren1 [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 10:40:32 f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 10:41:22 how can I check if class 'my-page does inherit from class 'page ? 10:41:54 s/inherit/extend/ 10:42:41 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 10:42:42 kiuma: the canonical way is to define a generic predicate function and specialize it on the base class 10:43:03 kiuma: you can also use subtypep 10:43:36 thx, subtypep fits my needs 10:44:51 is this right (subtypep (find-class 'my-page) (find-class 'claw-html:page))? 10:45:03 sure, or (subtypep 'my-page 'claw-html:page) 10:45:34 but note also that the subtype/subclass relationship doesn't mean as much as it might do, if the basic unit of your program is the "protocol" or "interface" 10:45:45 because completely disjoint classes can both have implementations of the same protocol 10:46:00 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 10:47:07 Xof, thanks I need this because for the cms I'm writing a node must have a 'template sbuclass 10:47:09 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-174.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:47:25 mm 10:47:27 *subclass 10:47:36 just think about what I wrote rather than responding to it without thinking 10:47:46 -!- tfb|away [n=tfb@212.183.134.209] has quit [] 10:47:50 you may still be right, or it may be irrelevant to your immediate purposes; I'm just saying 10:48:03 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.134.209] has joined #lisp 10:49:32 -!- fodo [n=user@222.66.141.182] has left #lisp 10:50:28 Xof, ah ok, now I understand what youo are saying, and thinking a bit more I even haven't to check if the template slot node is a sublass of a 'template node because it will be a required condition 10:51:11 sorry for typos 10:51:44 kiuma: did you ever consider that we might not even know what you are talking about when using terms like "template" and "node"? 10:51:50 kiuma: i, for one, have no idea. 10:52:19 we also might not particularly care 10:53:11 Jabberwo_ [n=jens@p508EEC27.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:53:49 kiuma: please describe your problems in abstract, common terms. that will make it easier to discuss. 10:54:54 <_8david> no, please don't ;-p 10:55:01 :) 10:55:27 Reaver_11 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:55:48 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:39 -!- f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:56:40 -!- Maahes [n=Mihos@cpe-76-169-173-133.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:57:08 pierpa [n=user@host202-182-static.80-94-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 10:57:23 Maahes [n=Mihos@cpe-76-169-173-133.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:59:03 joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 11:00:00 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:02:28 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 11:02:28 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:04:15 :) 11:04:51 I think _8david is right 11:05:02 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-31-243.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 11:05:37 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:06:45 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@p508EDC05.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:07:07 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279774860.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:07:46 LostMonarch [n=roby@host234-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 11:07:58 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 11:08:25 Beeet [n=stathis@155.207.137.52] has joined #lisp 11:08:55 ZabaQ [n=jconnors@194-105-174-193.ifb.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:09:47 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:13:07 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:14:34 -!- hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633759.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:14:45 f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 11:14:46 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:17:24 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:17:40 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@118-160-164-106.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 11:18:49 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:19:07 -!- CHJA [n=christia@79.138.177.199.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:19:19 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 11:20:20 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 11:25:57 -!- khafra [n=ubuntu@173-145.106-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:28:02 -!- ramkrsna_ [n=ramkrsna@59.160.127.177] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:28:41 -!- nunojsilva [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:29:00 -!- Beeet [n=stathis@155.207.137.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:29:02 -!- f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:33:00 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:10 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:36:28 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:38:44 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.158.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:39:05 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 11:40:38 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:40:47 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:40:54 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 11:44:15 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-149-174.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 11:50:37 f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 11:54:32 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-205-79-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 11:54:46 -!- ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:56:49 -!- f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:57:58 Reini_Urban [n=chatzill@212-183-51-233.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:58:03 -!- Reini_Urban is now known as rurban 11:58:05 a more general question: I want to create a function that extracts only particular direct slots of a class. How can I discriminate these slots ? 11:58:50 I need to discriminate them because they will be filled from database 11:59:34 subclass standard-direct-slot-definition 11:59:35 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:59:53 and standard-effective-slot-definition 11:59:55 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-205-30-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:00:19 my mop kung-fu is a big cloudy 12:00:51 manuel_: i think your advice, at the level at which kiuma is asking, should be "read amop" 12:00:59 :) 12:01:02 mmm... 12:01:19 oh 12:01:20 kiuma: really, your question was cloudy again. 12:01:22 I hope to have it here in office and not at home 12:01:24 yes, read "amop" 12:01:43 http://www.lisp.org/mop/index.html 12:01:51 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 12:01:58 manuel_, thank you 12:01:59 *madnificent* should find time to read amop too 12:02:00 kiuma: were you asking "can i find out whether some slot is 'direct'"? whatever does 'direct' mean? 12:02:28 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:02:53 no H4ns, I know how to do this, I was asking how to discriminate them. as manuel_ pointed 12:02:58 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:03:13 you could also name them differently 12:03:23 kiuma: aha 12:03:30 -!- ReiniUrban [n=chatzill@212-183-52-203.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:04:21 manuel_, no I'm writing a framework, I can't discriminate them by name, this would be terrible for final user 12:04:23 kiuma: why are you avoiding established frameworks? 12:04:45 is this a framework to map clos obejcts into a relational database? 12:05:05 madnificent, hi! established frameworks like ? 12:05:08 kiuma: as in: is there anything wrong with elephant/cl-perec? (which in turn may be a very interesting source for answers) 12:05:17 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:05:23 and hi to you kiuma :) 12:05:31 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 12:05:59 or bknr! 12:06:02 -!- tfb|away is now known as tfb 12:06:17 manuel_, no only slot values, without going down to implementaion internals 12:06:40 madnificent, elephant would be good, but sadly is not cross database 12:07:18 kiuma: I think it is 12:07:24 -!- mmstud [n=mmstud@62.236.208.151] has quit [] 12:07:35 madnificent, and I'm not doing a real orm in this case 12:07:49 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 12:07:55 lispm [n=joswig@e177149252.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:08:01 kiuma: elephant is a real ORM... it even has multiple inheritance if I'm correct 12:08:32 kiuma: why do you inherit your classes from other classes if their slots have completely different meanings? 12:08:36 froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 12:09:02 http://common-lisp.net/project/elephant/doc/User-Guide.html#User-Guide << contains a list of some backends (at least it's a start, you may be better of creating a new backend for it) 12:09:09 kiuma: i mean, if you have to discriminate slots to know whether they are from the concrete class or inherited, maybe it would be better not to use inheritance in the first place. 12:10:00 ilitirit [n=john@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 12:10:12 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-99.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:11:27 froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 12:12:44 -!- H4ns [n=hans@72-255-10-254.client.stsn.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:12:52 H4ns, discending into details, I have cms-template classes (and subclasses), they must get properties from a property table and I need a list of these property names. When subclassing I need to maintain this list and add the new subclas cms-property names 12:14:06 maybe the mop is a wrong approach for this task, but actually I can't figure uot a different pattern 12:14:35 *out 12:16:10 mop is the right way 12:17:06 manuel_, ok 12:17:35 greetings, some new packages http://www.msi.co.jp/~fremlin/projects/ 12:17:45 udp for linux with error detection 12:17:49 non-blocking snmp 12:17:57 for one time I saw straight :) 12:18:03 <_8david> if you twist the "requirements" long enough, any arbitrary solution will appear as the right way 12:19:08 _8david, I find basing on naming convention is too dangerous 12:19:39 f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 12:19:56 is that because you can't spell? 12:20:19 might be :P 12:20:20 -!- tfb is now known as tfb|away 12:20:23 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:20:25 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:20:35 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:21:32 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:22:26 ilitirit: are there cliki-pages of those? 12:22:55 not quite ready for cliki 12:23:23 if there is interest in it, maybe we will tidy them up and put them on cliki 12:23:42 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:45 ilitirit: do you know iolib? 12:23:46 it is quite cool as you can implement multihost tracepath with the ip_recverr stuff easily 12:23:49 ilitirit: having them on cliki may generate interest :P 12:23:54 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:24:03 attila_lendvai, yes i know iolib and osicat 12:24:08 i did it again, i know 12:24:52 ilitirit: sometimes i also have a serious NIH syndrome, but not with iolib... :) 12:25:01 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:25:26 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:09 ilitirit, was 't there already similar functionality from a guy in china? 12:26:11 iliitirit pasted "tracepath to multiple hosts" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73571 12:26:30 yes i use the snmp library but extend it with nonblocking mode 12:26:44 so that you can query multiple routers efficiently 12:27:01 what are you doing with this code? 12:27:01 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:06 attila_lendvai, iolib and osicat never do exactly what we want 12:27:32 it is for querying many routers simultaneously 12:27:53 -!- froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:57 i.e. ~100k routers, and asking for traffic stats 12:28:48 so this is used by some company? 12:28:54 ilitirit: well, fe[nl]ix is quite open for patches, especially for new functionality... and iolib is quite performant. it may miss very lowlevel features you need, though, i don't know... 12:29:24 iolib is terrible for performance last time i checked 12:29:40 it generated an error for eagain for example 12:29:53 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 12:30:09 i think that's fixed already... 12:30:17 lispm: yes, it is for a client of msi.co.jp 12:30:29 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:30:36 what made you use Lisp for that? 12:30:48 well i am in the lisp department 12:30:55 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.193.2] has joined #lisp 12:30:59 there are about 10 of us 12:31:05 okay, that is a reason ;-) 12:31:32 ah, I think I met someone from your company at some Lisp conference in New York 12:31:37 attila_lendvai, iolib doesn't have the ip_recverr stuff 12:31:52 ilitirit: when i was in tokyo last year i dropped by for a meeting in msi, with Huang Jianshi and another hungarian lisper... small world :) 12:32:17 -!- f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:32:29 attila_lendvai: could you update the mainpage of cl-perec at common-lisp.net? It states that only PostgreSQL is supported, but the backend supports OCI and Sqlite3 too (apparantly). Or is there some reason for cl-perec to not work on those? 12:33:24 lispm, maybe that was Mr Kuroda? 12:33:29 yes 12:33:31 right 12:33:56 attila_lendvai, yes huang is working on another part of the same project 12:34:10 madnificent: i will. but: sqlite is a joke, and it's missing reflection capabilities, so perec can not alter the schema, but alway redo it from scratch when something is changed. and we never used the OCI backend in production, although iirc most of the tests passed... 12:34:37 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 12:34:42 http://www.international-lisp-conference.org/2005/speakers.html#hisao_kuroda 12:35:08 H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:35:25 ilitirit: yes, his name sounds familiar. as i recall he was the team leader of the lisp group at that time 12:35:32 attila_lendvai: sadly, I don't have a setup that allows to test OCI. It may be nice to create a page with notes on the backends (with the content you just entered here). That may clear up the status :) 12:36:14 attila_lendvai: will there be an installation available through mudballs sometime (soon)? Or would that be hoping for too much? 12:37:02 attila_lendvai, yes he is still in charge and very enthusiastic about lisp 12:37:34 madnificent: as soon as mudball, or any other tool, supports getting a tag from a repo as a means of installing a lib... 12:38:35 attila_lendvai: ahh, I'll have to talk to other people then :) thanks 12:38:41 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 12:39:14 ilitirit: yes, we had a good conversation. at that time we just finished the first survey with our webapp. (~4000 users, gathering data from the local governments of hungary to plan that part of the budget) 12:39:38 lisp webapp, that is 12:39:52 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 12:40:07 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 12:40:45 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:54 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 12:42:15 cool 12:42:37 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:42:37 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:42:37 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-096-177.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:42:37 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:42:37 -!- hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:42:37 -!- gz [n=gz@209.6.18.72] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:42:37 -!- sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4ACC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:42:37 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:42:37 -!- mjonsson [n=mjonsson@66-234-42-93.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 12:42:42 oh argh, there's an ILC in march 12:43:09 ilitirit: anyways, it would be nice to incorporate your changes into iolib in one way or another. fe[nl]ix is sensitive to performance, but he's working on iolib mostly alone with limited resources... i know it's extra effort, but we all would benefit from it. 12:43:24 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:47 antifuchs, really? 12:43:59 or something like that date 12:44:06 froog____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 12:44:11 I just remembered that 2009 is /now/. 12:44:13 this is concerning 12:44:22 lispm: kind of silent about that thing 12:44:30 antifuchs, I mean 12:44:40 yeah (: 12:45:06 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:06 hyperboreean [n=none@unaffiliated/hyperboreean] has joined #lisp 12:45:06 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:45:06 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-096-177.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:06 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 12:45:06 gz [n=gz@209.6.18.72] has joined #lisp 12:45:06 sulo__ [n=sulo@p57B4ACC2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:45:06 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 12:45:06 mjonsson [n=mjonsson@66-234-42-93.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:10 schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/session] has joined #lisp 12:45:59 Soulman__ [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 12:46:17 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:46:36 attila_lendvai, iolib is quite a heavy dependency 12:46:49 i started with iolib for a few hours but it got on my nerves for some reason 12:46:57 i can't remember why we dropped it 12:48:24 ilitirit: well, i can understand that, as it happened to me with other libs a few times. but at least talk to fe[nl]ix sometime when he's around... 12:49:06 i have been talking to him on and off 12:49:22 i also made bytemap which has a full wrapper for mmap 12:49:33 f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 12:50:30 ah, good. i was afraid it's just a lack of communication. in that case you can mostly forget my advertisement of iolib then... :) 12:50:38 -!- schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-438ebdec7ac26a08] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 12:51:09 it would be great if we could get this stuff into a central library, that is for sure 12:56:59 demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig108.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:58:29 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:58:40 i'd like to see eagain be a normal return value from a function call instead of a thrown condition also actually .. it doesn't "feel" like an error or condition 12:58:58 -!- froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:59:10 and it'd probably increase performance by a bit :) 13:00:08 froog_____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 13:01:19 -!- f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:01:40 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:01 well, i don't want to check for return values in any code code whose performance is not critical. but it's ok to do so in a lowel level layer... 13:03:09 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 13:03:13 yeah 13:04:22 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:04:28 davazp` [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:59 froog______ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 13:13:59 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 13:15:43 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:16:24 schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2444ed2ee99f617d] has joined #lisp 13:18:07 -!- 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[n=authenti@85-127-21-201.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:02:55 There seems to be little useful information about writing setf expanders online. 14:03:23 ZabaQ: clhs? 14:04:07 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-31-243.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:04:09 madhificent: Yes, thats about it. 14:04:18 ZabaQ: defsetf has some info 14:04:32 the 'advanced' form of it should get you started (at least, it worked for me) 14:04:44 clim define-application-frame 14:04:44 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/28-2.html#_1480 14:05:16 ZabaQ: perhaps it would be good to have a more light description of the symbols defined in the clhs 14:06:09 sometimes the CLtL2 descriptions help 14:06:11 http://lispm.dyndns.org/documentation/cltl2/clm/node80.html 14:06:20 7.2. Generalized Variables 14:08:02 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-183.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:13 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 14:08:43 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:10:24 also don't forget the next Hamburg Lisp Stammtisch: Mittwoch, der 28. Januar 2009, Zeit: 19h 14:10:48 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 14:11:04 http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/lisp-hh/2009-January/000409.html 14:11:12 that is a lisp-meeting-packed week, according to xach's calendar 14:11:51 I have an exam on the 30th of the month -_- 14:12:05 every Lisper should try to be at least at one Lisp meeting in that week ;-) 14:12:34 http://xach.livejournal.com/209187.html 14:13:08 'munich: unfortunately the ALU killed our wiki page' ;-) 14:17:22 -!- schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2444ed2ee99f617d] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 14:17:26 to get all slots of a class (even the ones inherited from superclasses) do I have to call class-slots or append class-effective-slots and class-direct-slots 14:17:39 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has joined #lisp 14:17:41 f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 14:18:18 class-slots will do as long as the class' finalized 14:19:20 there doesn't seem to be a function named class-effective-slots 14:19:44 <_8david> weirdo: that function is called class-slots 14:20:38 hmm there are effective slot definitions, though 14:20:40 I'm using closer mop 14:20:56 so I can use the function 14:21:08 me too, there's no c-e-s fn 14:21:10 *Xof* cries 14:21:29 mmm... 14:21:30 what's wrong Xof? 14:21:34 Hopefully this doesn't sound too basic - the difference between a stream and a string - was working with the csv parser, and got it parsing correctly (through regexp), but it wants a stream instead of a string. In a lot of ways aren't they kinda the same? 14:21:47 anyway, kiuma, CLASS-SLOTS will do 14:21:59 -!- montabeau is now known as abeaumont 14:22:04 weirdo, ok thanks 14:23:18 lispm: After reading that, I can parse the hyperspec.. 14:23:36 good! 14:25:04 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:26:05 schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8cfca478816964e7] has joined #lisp 14:27:04 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:27:06 TDT: strings and streams are the same as much as a go kart and a bus are the same. 14:27:22 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 14:27:26 TDT: you can create a stream that reads from a string, though 14:27:29 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:35 clhs with-input-from-string 14:27:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_in_f.htm 14:27:48 H4ns: Could be a really *big* go-kart, hehe. And, interesting. I will read that, PCL didn't have much on the subject. 14:28:49 yvdriess_ [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:29:01 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [Client Quit] 14:29:10 Hmm, explains how to use it, but not the differences between the two. I'll have to google on that some I think. 14:29:23 TDT: they are not the "same" at all 14:29:26 I always viewed a stream as a listing of bytes that hasn't "ended" yet. 14:29:52 weirdo, isn't sufficient to call (unless (class-finalized-p class) (finalize-inheritance class)) ? 14:29:55 Isn't streams are like file handlers? 14:30:05 kiuma, it's ok :) 14:30:06 Aren't* 14:30:07 TDT: a stream is used for reading and/or writing data. a string is for representing test. 14:30:25 s/test/text/ 14:31:19 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:31:24 -!- f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:31:28 H4ns: a difference in purpose is not necessarily a difference in representation though ;) 14:31:31 -!- japhie [n=japhy@vide-sat.pl] has quit [] 14:32:13 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:32:23 madnificent: not neccessarily, but for streams vs. strings, the representation is vastly different except for a very limited number of special cases 14:32:52 http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book-Z-H-24.html#%_sec_3.5 14:32:57 streams are delayed lists :) 14:33:07 (representation, not purpose) 14:33:15 -!- tfb|away [n=tfb@212.183.134.209] has quit ["gone"] 14:33:23 -!- yvdriess_ is now known as yvdriess 14:33:41 weirdo, the problem is that it alwais returns nil 14:34:08 yvdriess: not in tis context, no. 14:34:23 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:34:23 class-slots does? and it's finalized? 14:34:36 H4ns: yes, it was just that it probably would not immediately make it clearer to TDT, as he was looking for a difference in representation (in his head) not a difference in purpose. I don't know a good way to express it 14:34:36 wait 14:35:27 madnificent: in order to understand, it makes sense to not consider the representation, but to concentrate on the purpose. 14:35:37 a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has joined #lisp 14:35:38 SICP is still onmy to-read list, I really gotta start on that some. 14:35:45 if you want to put your finger on the difference, conceptually, then you could say streams is a list of infinite on-demand elements 14:35:55 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf651.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:36:04 madnificent: underlying, it all is bytes and instructions. pointing that out does not add a lot of clarity. 14:36:14 H4ns: but he understood the purpose 14:36:20 yvdriess:an input stream is that. 14:36:26 <_death> no, in this context you could say that a string is a sequence of characters, while a stream is an opaque source or sink (or both) 14:36:37 _death: ~ 14:36:40 ! i meant. 14:36:53 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 14:36:54 kiuma pasted "class-slot problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73575 14:37:01 Hi 14:37:16 Gotta say this is one of the most intelligent debates I've seen in IRC in my 7 years here, heh 14:37:20 TDT: so, what yvdriess said :) 14:37:28 weirdo, I meant class-slots 14:37:35 dash [n=washort@ampere.divmod.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:48 TDT: I might be biased (academically), but SICP is a really good basis, so if you're motivated it's the place to start 14:38:06 it's not practical in the sense that you will learn lisp or something 14:38:42 yvdriess: Yeah, some months ago I came in here asking for a listing of books - got most of them already, hehe. PCL is taking a lot more time to go through than I thought it would, but it's been worthwhile so far. 14:39:19 I think PCL is a good motivational books 14:39:26 s/books/book 14:39:34 it gets and keeps you interested 14:39:55 hi. if i'm trying to produce a string representation of some data in an alist using FORMAT, is there a format directive that'll help me out or do I need to convert it to a list of lists first and use ~:{~} ? or should I concat the result of a bunch of (format nil "..." (car pair) (cdr pair)) calls 14:40:17 if you are learing to play a musical instrument, the _best_ way to start is to do really basic exercises for a year or 2 14:40:32 but it's so boring that you will hook off 14:41:15 well I'm not saying SICP is boring, but it's not right when you're looking for something hands on to write your project in lisp _now_ 14:41:28 (obviously this is a stylistic question, so what would _you_ find less objectionable if you were reading code that wanted to do this? :) 14:41:32 yvdriess: Yeah, that's why I'm trying to do both the basic stuff, but do more extended stuff with it. Like now, I'm using Drakama to pull information from a web site (CSV file), then to parse it using fare-csv, and eventually to write it to a file..hopefully pretty much covering everything I learned so far. 14:41:34 <_death> dash: you could set-up an output string-stream and write the to that, rather than concatenate strings 14:41:42 SICP gives you the theoretical basis to just look at any language feature or program implementation and go "hey that's just this thing, easy" 14:41:57 _death: ok sure 14:42:05 nice :) 14:42:21 yvdriess: yeah, SICP I may need to start on with PCL a bit - for conceptual knowledge. A lot of this stuff I feel I should have learned better when an undergrad, heh. 14:42:25 just don't fall in the trap that "well you can do that in perl using *$&@(@*@&#$(#)" 14:42:41 TDT: nobody teaches anything interesting in undergrad anymore =/ 14:42:55 TDT: our first year courses are based on SICP here 14:42:57 yvdriess: heck, you can do it in CL with those letters 14:42:59 hah, yeah, I've been doign well to avoid that so far (but actually Python is my favorite language, but I really like LISP a whole lot so far). 14:43:15 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:43:22 yvdriess: Yeah, I'm a graduate student yet, but feel my foundation could be a whole lot better. Undergrad here sucked. 14:43:33 (if you're reading hbaker's META for CL paper) 14:43:41 we're one of the few universities where you don't learn any java at all :P 14:43:53 yvdriess: where's that? 14:43:55 you're just supposed to learn it by yourself in 5 minutes when you need t 14:44:02 university of brussels 14:44:17 sl33v3 [n=sl33v3@118-160-165-210.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:29 yvdriess: leuven is extremely java-centered, though I'm allowed to make projects in other languages :) 14:44:31 been using scheme for about 8 years I think 14:44:42 ah, KUL :) 14:44:58 spot on :) didn't know there were more lispers in this country :P 14:45:00 you have a course where they teach scheme/prolog at the same time I think 14:45:08 -!- sl33v3 [n=sl33v3@118-160-165-210.dynamic.hinet.net] has left #lisp 14:45:13 we have a few lispy researchers here at the lab 14:45:26 yvdriess: we did have prolog/haskell this year. But I haven't seen scheme come up anywhere 14:45:30 that is, bar the AI guys that use it anyway 14:45:42 ah they swapped it for haskell 14:45:43 good 14:45:46 yvdriess: no! 14:45:52 yes 14:45:56 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 14:46:01 they thought scheme in a 'functional programming' course 14:46:04 it was horrible 14:46:23 I thought at the univ of hasself for 2 years, where I had 2 courses to teach 'functional programming'' 14:46:30 I would've preferred to get some scheme instead of haskell. I knew some haskell before, I haven't touched scheme yet 14:46:34 I could use scheme 14:46:39 but without using lambda! 14:46:42 LoL 14:46:45 yvdriess: you mean "Taught"? 14:46:47 it;s too greek and math-y ! 14:46:50 tought sorry 14:46:57 heh, live in the states here. The CS program here is known for not being the super best around - so yeah, a lot of it comes to one's own learning. We did go through haskell and prolog though. I fell into the trap at the time wondering what I'd use it for, heh 14:46:59 tAught 14:47:18 yvdriess: do we have a lisp user group in belgium? 14:47:18 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:32 haskell / prolog are master year courses really 14:47:37 it's something for when you have a good basis 14:47:43 I do not think so 14:47:44 f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 14:47:58 we should maybe start something 14:48:15 we've been pushing CL to some students now too 14:48:20 hmm, QT is going LGPL :) 14:48:27 pascall started teaching a CL course etc 14:48:27 -!- lanthan [n=ze@149.205.212.219] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:48:35 rsynnott: that was the good news of the morning! 14:48:37 so we are producing CL loving students now 14:48:39 yvdriess: they use/dev prolog at our AI department 14:48:48 H4ns: ah, missed that; forgot about IRC this morning 14:48:53 yeah leuven is a good Prolog place 14:49:05 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:49:08 yvdriess: you're a professor, or an assistent? 14:49:17 rsynnott: and now you've made all the progress you meant to make for the whole week? :) 14:49:17 phd student 14:49:30 heh 14:50:31 I'll propose a belgian lisp user group here :) 14:50:35 yvdriess: it would be good to get a lisp-course... It is half-myth amongst our students 14:50:39 there is a smalltalk one though 14:50:52 yvdriess: how inferior they are! 14:50:59 well there is this open university thing, you can follow the lisp course by pascal costanza for free 14:51:04 if you're a KUL student 14:51:09 -!- _me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:51:16 -!- spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 14:51:22 yvdriess: We started on haskel and prolog kinda earlier - and really, when I asked a professor what it's used for he said something about programming nuclear reactors. Kinda wish I knew back then that a lot of the theory courses are actually pretty interesting. 14:51:57 haha yeah, the reactors of Doel are running a lisp program 14:51:58 yvdriess: can you point me to a resource about that? 14:52:08 the company tractebel used it 14:52:15 let me google it 14:52:36 http://www.algo.be/cl/TEE-lisp/018/index.htm 14:52:43 joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has joined #lisp 14:52:44 _f3nd3r_ [n=_f3nd3r_@24.236.243.176] has joined #lisp 14:53:01 -!- dash [n=washort@ampere.divmod.com] has left #lisp 14:53:10 Status In production for the seven Belgian nuclear power plants since 1990. 14:53:10 Technical details Developped with ALLEGRO\CL (from Franz Inc). 14:53:14 yvdriess: Kinda wish though that really professors here concentrated on enforcing the idea that the theory stuff can be interesting, and makes one a better programmer, even though it's not teaching so much just totally practical stuff all the time. 14:53:26 any of you belgians know Sebastian Gonzales? :P 14:53:43 yep 14:53:51 hehe, cool. he is a good friend of mine 14:53:54 assistent of one of our ex-doctoral guys 14:53:54 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:53:57 hehe :) 14:54:05 is he the ambience guy? 14:54:17 kim mens's student right? 14:54:35 I have no idea, all I know is that he was doing his phd in brussels 14:54:42 well UCL :) 14:54:46 and he is a CLer too 14:54:46 louvain-la-neuve 14:54:53 although he comes here often 14:54:54 yep 14:55:05 lisp, now for nuclear power plants, too!: http://www.algo.be/cl/TEE-lisp/31837203184549270/coraps-screen.jpg 14:55:35 (unlike Java, of course) 14:55:56 :D 14:56:15 Last update : 17/12/2001 14:56:16 ouch 14:56:56 heh 14:57:22 sweet, rsynnott 14:57:35 (the Java license at least used to tell you not to use it in nuclear power plants) 14:57:38 it's comforting to know that the nuclear power plant in your area has lisp's error catching mechanism 14:57:44 -!- Reaver_11 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has left #lisp 14:57:46 though I suspect they meant more for real time control 14:59:13 yvdriess: Well, it would be comforting to know that they actually use Lisp's error catching mechanisms. 14:59:16 a lecturer I had in uni had previously designed real-time expert control systems for BNFL. This always worried me a bit.) 14:59:50 I do kinda wonder why lisp isn't used more often these days. 14:59:53 BNFL? 14:59:53 rsynnott: most sold OSS in belgium contains clauses like that. We are not allowed to sell products for which we don't give a guarantee that it works for something. So generally it contains an enumeration of all risk-domains stating that it mustnt be used there (that apparantly is allowed). (that is what some fellow student told me, don't just take my word on it) 14:59:57 ah for BNFL 14:59:58 I prefer the physical kind of error catching mechanisms 15:00:11 -!- _f3nd3r_ [n=_f3nd3r_@24.236.243.176] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:00:13 Seems things are flowing more to meta-interpreted type stuff, like java, C#, python, perl, ruby, php, etc. 15:01:03 TDT: that's sociology and psychology, not computer science :D 15:01:06 like having the control rods go in vertically 15:01:13 -!- f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:01:26 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:01:29 yvdriess: British Nuclear Fuels; co-developers of the new westinghouse reactor design 15:02:20 if you're interested in that VUB course: http://prog.vub.ac.be/~pcostanza/trends-08-09.html 15:02:26 * @Xof cries # that one line alone justifies all the time I've spent in this channel. :-P 15:02:28 (the belgian nuclear people seem to have shifted to lispworks; presumably Franz was charging too much per power plant :) ) 15:02:29 TDT: more people wonder about it :) Perhaps because it isn't hyped like other languages 15:02:35 lol 15:03:01 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:03:42 if you want a one-liner responce, it's "people choose things on the basis of other people already using it" 15:04:00 madnificent: Yeah, but lisp used to be extremely big - I wonder if it's just the learning curve involved, lisp is not an easy language where one can pick up PHP in no time flat. 15:04:05 *response 15:04:19 TDT: lisp was "extremely big"? 15:04:30 H4ns: it got smaller? 15:04:34 lisp used to be much smaller :) 15:04:42 rsynnott: i don't think that it got smaller, no. 15:04:55 rsynnott: well, maybe in the early 90ies. 15:04:58 TDT: people can learn enough php to be a danger to themselves and others easily, certainly 15:05:15 how much constructs did the first lisp paper have? :P 15:05:16 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-132-11.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:31 9?\ 15:05:32 becoming proficient in it is, IMO, probably much more difficult than, say, lisp 15:05:40 TDT: lisp is not difficult. If you'd take the subset of lisp with which you would be able to do what php does, then I don't think you'll have a harder thing to learn. Perhaps it will be more consistent :P A lack of resources could be it (we have no 1337 blogs with 101 scripts for the real h4x0R5 on it) 15:06:02 or most other languages; it is so inconsistent 15:06:16 cons car cdr quote eql cond apply ? 15:06:16 TDT: and no, you did not say, nor imply that lisp was too difficult :) 15:06:23 madnificent: Setting up a Lisp IDE is still harder than a PHP one. 15:06:31 lambda! 15:06:36 z0d: have you seen ABLE? 15:06:39 z0d: you get far more for your trouble, though 15:06:45 rsynnott: That's true. 15:06:47 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 15:06:57 H4ns: From my understanding lisp was highly popular during the 80s, mainly for AI or something like that. 15:07:17 TDT, yes, but mainly academics using it 15:07:26 from the 80's home computers came into being 15:07:31 Ah, thought it was totally mainstream during the time. 15:07:38 TDT: "highly popular" is a term that has a completely different meaning when applied to the 1980ies 15:07:57 with cpu's having about the processing power of the processors in the academic guys' keyboard 15:08:01 TDT: it means something like "there were 1000 lisp programmers", and we can safely assume that there are more than 1000 lisp programmers now. 15:08:03 H4ns: heh, consider I was born during that time, so..I only am repeating what I read :) 15:08:10 so they went back into the programming dark ages 15:08:18 and industry picked up from the dark ages 15:08:22 not the academic guys 15:08:23 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 15:08:44 in the 80's compilation was so '50s :) 15:09:20 at the time, there was great commercial pressure for things to run on very small machines 15:09:34 (this is why apple dropped smalltalk, for instance) 15:09:41 lisp has been blamed (probably incorrectly) for the failure of AI (as in: AI evolved too slow). As in the same stories, it has been implied to be only good for AI... That may have cost it some credit. (I wonder where I read it) 15:09:48 madnificent: Yeah, you're probably right on that. But, I think there are some good resources for lisp available, just organized a bit differently is all. And yeah, you're also right - PHP is a subset of what's in lisp, but the way of thinking of pgoramming something is very much hard for sure. 15:09:52 c|mell [n=cmell@v113247.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 15:10:14 TDT: look at the purpose of the language 15:10:26 madnificent: Well AI is still used to a degree today - just under the idea of machine learning (e.g. data mining) 15:10:33 PHP really is for inserting text stuff between tags 15:10:53 weirdo, the my problem is that when using class-slots instead of class-direct-slots in my cms-property-slots (cms-template-class-property-label slot) is always nil. do you know why ? 15:11:07 H4ns: Is it sufficient to HANDLE-CASE stream bound invalidations in just GET-REQUEST-DATA nad GET-POST-DATA functions in hunchentoot? 15:11:12 TDT: I personally believe it is hard to think in, because people have learned to hit their brains with a hammer over their past programming experience... When I point non-programmers to lisp-code, they seem to grasp it rather quickly. When pointing java-coders to it, their mind simply stops working 15:11:14 s/the my/my/ 15:11:38 madnificent: yeah that's a large issue 15:11:48 madnificent, part of this is due to prefix notation 15:11:50 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 15:11:57 virgin programmers are usually better students in the first year 15:12:05 when the only language they touch is scheme 15:12:05 vy: i can't tell withou looking at the source, but it sounds about right. 15:12:14 madnificent: Yeah, that's probably where I'm coming from as well..I mean, a lot of it is "easy" but a lot is "hard" too, but it's definitely helping me out with what I'm learning for sure. 15:12:28 TDT to a "degree"? It's a huge area. You're right that there is a mach. learning vs. AI fuzziness, but also the idea that as soon as people understand something, they stop calling it "AI" (not entirely unreasonable). 15:13:01 haha yeah, suddenly it's machine learning or data mining :) 15:13:03 it's not AI! :) 15:13:04 some areas are really pretty strong in research still/currently. not so much the cog sci stuff, but fair enough 15:13:09 yvdriess: I got into programming after taking a 101 course taught in python, during my last year of college (as an elective). I'm glad that was my avenue into the world :) 15:13:21 python is also good yeah 15:13:26 yvdriess: it's actually a useful distinction, I think 15:14:03 I have a hard time making the difference between AI and Machien Learning. I mean, if you look at AI as a robot controlling itself - we understand what it should do, but doesn't make it any less AI. Machine learning, we have to help a lot..it's not pure AI by any means, we have to tweak how it computes something, but dunno. 15:14:37 AI is the research field it came from 15:14:38 AI was a poorly defined concept from the beginning 15:14:59 it eventually became "those things which we are not yet able to program into a computer" 15:15:18 dlowe: right. which is why machine learning is a useful label 15:15:33 we've got a better idea of what that means 15:15:35 stuff that came from ai that works? :) 15:15:37 wasn't AI the buzzword used to convince ronald reagan to spend billions on lisp and related technology? 15:15:53 we need such a buzzword now to lift lisp up to the next level! 15:15:54 billions on research projects more like 15:15:59 now we have different buzzwords 15:16:01 does the latest slime not bring up a repl for anyone else? I've tried emacs-snapshot and emacs-22 15:16:03 maybe lisp can make blackberries for presidents work? 15:16:12 like internet of things, pervasive and such things 15:16:30 <_death> dlowe: you need to load the `slime-repl' contrib 15:16:38 f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 15:16:43 !!!? 15:16:47 that's a contrib now? 15:16:51 yeah 15:16:53 yeah, it just changed 15:16:54 shucks 15:17:00 my favorite slime feature was cut 15:17:00 i think slime-fancy loads it though 15:17:02 weirdo, never mind I think I miss compute-slots method 15:17:03 the animation :( 15:17:17 <_death> yvdriess: that's the `slime-banner' contrib 15:17:19 dlowe: there's now a couple alternative to the regular repl. 15:17:32 pkhuong: I see. 15:17:33 how do I load all those things as if it was the old slime? 15:17:46 yvdriess: (add-to-list 'slime-setup-contribs 'slime-repl) 15:18:30 dlowe: surprised me too, but it makes sense 15:18:39 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:10 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:19:12 <_death> slime development makes no sense whatever, unless you're heller that is 15:19:13 Symbol's value as variable is void: slime-setup-contribs 15:19:43 (slime-setup '(slime-repl)) 15:19:59 H4ns: no-one can afford to spends lots of money on imaginary technology these days 15:20:07 (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) that will make slime like it was 15:20:16 yay 15:20:24 rsynnott: i was joking, if that was not obvious. 15:20:43 why, even the jumbo jet with giant laser is being cancelled :) 15:20:52 rsynnott: bwahahah. that's funny. Some of the best money is always in imaginary tech (defense, mostly) 15:21:02 rsynnott: I dunno, I'm getting money for quantum research :D 15:21:25 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:22:06 (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) 15:22:06 --> no banner :( 15:22:19 add slime-banner to that list 15:22:29 ? 15:25:49 H4ns: It doesn't appear to be so: http://rafb.net/p/4c1mEd38.html 15:25:51 -!- lambda [n=lambda@c-24-5-198-113.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:25:54 japhie [n=japhy@153.19.5.111] has joined #lisp 15:26:40 H4ns: In the first two diff's whole change is caused by the indentation stuff after introducing HANDLER-CASE in the top level. 15:26:53 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-096-177.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:27:26 vy: you can use diff -u 15:27:30 diff -b that is. 15:27:50 H4ns: darcs failed: unrecognized option `-b' 15:27:56 \o/ 15:28:09 the 747 with giant laser was particularly good in that it was useful only against someone who had ICBMs or at least continental-range BMs, yet was not able to shoot down a large aircraft within a few miles of their launch site 15:28:48 -!- Jabberwo_ [n=jens@p508EEC27.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:29:56 *rsynnott* never liked the slime banner very much 15:30:07 Why does Edi still refuse to use a public VCS repository? 15:30:44 vy: all code is commited by himself, so there is no need to give anyone else access to his repository. 15:31:15 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 15:31:22 -!- f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:29 rsynnott: and now you don't have to watch it :) 15:31:36 vy: i have trouble reviewing the code with the white space changes showing up as changes. from glancing over the rest, things look good. what is the problem. 15:31:39 ? 15:32:08 -!- _death is now known as adeht 15:32:58 H4ns: It doesn't work. :-) drakma test command returns ("POST Parameters: (\"test-file\" 51)", 200, ((:CONTENT-LENGTH . "33") ...) 15:33:19 vy: ah, great :) 15:33:26 H4ns: As you can see, file is truncated from 1024 to 51, but somehow hunchentoot couldn't manage to handle the stream exception. 15:34:13 vy: did you use *break-on-signals* to find out where the condition is signaled? 15:34:39 I tried that, but it crashes my whole SLIME setup. Let me give it another try. 15:34:53 vy: once you're done with all this, you can send me a consolidated diff against the bknr repository and i'll try to bring it into the release next week. 15:35:04 vy: run hunchentoot single threaded, that'll make debugging easier. 15:35:59 <_3b> vy: are the random wierd chars at line 168 of that paste actually in the source? 15:36:08 attila_lendvai: you've mucked up stefil with your scheming #f weirdness :/ 15:36:25 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.193.2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:37:12 _3b: Weird characters at line 168 of paste http://rafb.net/p/4c1mEd38.html ? I cannot see any. 15:37:43 <_3b> vy: strange, went away when i reloaded it 15:38:02 <_3b> guess that means no then :) 15:38:41 h4ns: to compare diffs in the files with space diffs, do you use emacs ediff? 15:38:48 A tempering in the matrix? 15:39:17 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:38 dlowe: from that point of view every introduced macro is a weirdness... but as a stefil user you can forget all the #t/#f... what's the source of the headache? 15:39:39 <_3b> vy: anything odd about line 171? 15:39:42 wgl: i'm not sure what you are asking. i sometimes use ediff, but for quickly reviewing patches i prefer looking at diffs that do not show whitespace changes as differences. 15:40:21 <_3b> vy: actually, maybe that paste bin is just broken, i get different results every time i load it :/ 15:40:22 attila_lendvai: it won't compile. what package is the #t/#f stuff defined in? 15:40:22 *Fare* is looking for a non-Boston visitor to the ILC'09 to give the march speech at BLM. 15:40:31 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 15:40:51 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:55 dlowe: it's self contained and should compile fine. which lisp, how do you load it? 15:41:12 attila_lendvai: sbcl, slime ,load stefil 15:41:30 attila_lendvai, you wouldn't be coming to ILC'09, would you? 15:41:37 h4ns: with emacs ediff, you can tell it to not show diffs that are only whitespace. 15:41:42 Asgeir [n=asgeir@tri59-1-82-233-201-74.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:51 <_3b> vy: or maybe it was firefox encoding autodetect, nevermind if the original looks sane :) 15:41:56 wgl: with diff -uab too 15:42:55 dlowe: what sbcl version? that's most probably an asdf issue, but you're the first to complain about non-loadability... 15:43:03 for april we'll have functional data flow analysis for haskell at the BLM 15:43:13 attila_lendvai: 1.0.24.30 15:43:16 by Norman Ramsey from Tufts 15:43:23 H4ns: Turned *break-on-signals* on and after running DRAKMA:HTTP-REQUEST it dumps Lisp connection closed unexpectedly: connection broken by remote peer. 15:43:41 attila_lendvai: I just get "no dispatch function defined for #\F" 15:44:12 *_3b* wonders how hard it would be to add 'lisp format string' to firefox's encoding autodetect 15:44:21 attila_lendvai: that's in swank-integration.lisp 15:44:45 dlowe: grep set-dispatch-macro-character 15:45:05 Fare: we're not planning... :( tight schedule until the summer 15:45:33 Fare: well, enable-sharp-boolean-syntax is supposed to do that 15:45:38 f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 15:45:50 dlowe: that's strange, there's a #.(file-header) at the top of the file that should take care of it 15:45:58 dlowe, missed an eval-when or #. ? 15:46:48 damn I fucked up slime for aquamacs 15:46:52 vy: single threaded hunchentoot? 15:46:54 can anyone help me with that? 15:46:57 blitz_ [n=julian@2001:6f8:10f6:0:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 15:47:06 *attila_lendvai* tries to reproduce 15:47:54 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:47:57 attila_lendvai: good luck :) 15:48:33 H4ns: How can I do that? I removed :sb-thread from *features*. BTW, I altered *break-on-signals* in the line after line 292 in http://rafb.net/p/4c1mEd38.html, and yeah, I see the signaled condition. 15:48:37 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 15:49:56 vy: (start-server ... :threaded nil) 15:50:20 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go"] 15:51:15 Gosh! Documentation doesn't mention about that. 15:51:44 vy: that's one of the reasons why there has not been a hunchentoot release in moths :) 15:52:35 H4ns: Doesn't removing :SB-THREAD from *FEATURES* supply same functionality? 15:52:48 vy: only if you recompile everything. 15:53:35 dlowe: i can't see anything suspicious. if you could paste a backtrace and a load log that would help... 15:53:54 attila_lendvai: I restarted the emacs and it worked 15:53:55 this should be highlighted on the aquamacs website :) --> 15:53:56 SLIME, the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode is no longer included in Aquamacs but provided as a point-and-click installer plugi 15:53:59 attila_lendvai: who knows :p 15:55:18 yvdriess: Isn't Aquamacs' SLIME a few centuries old? 15:55:50 I don't know about installer, but version bundled with previous aquamacs was 2.0 or so... 15:56:09 14-Jan-2009 08:30 15:56:19 Aquamacs-SLIME-2009-01-14.pkg.tgz 15:56:34 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:44 dlowe: the only problem i can see that could lead to this symptom is a load order issue, but the asd has a :serial t... anyways, it works, so back to work... :) 15:56:50 Oh, they got better ;) I'll stick with my own CVS pull anyway 15:56:54 attila_lendvai: thanks for your time 15:56:59 I used to just cp over aquamacs' slime with the CVS HEAD 15:57:10 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:57:15 but now they stopped bundling it 15:57:15 danlei`` [n=user@pD9E2F866.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:34 dammit still not working 15:57:54 dlowe: you're very welcome, and thanks for local-time! ;) 15:58:31 -!- cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:00:23 yvdriess: can't you just use it in the normal way, set it up in your .emacs ? 16:00:30 cheatcountry [n=cheatcou@cpe-72-177-217-220.satx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:49 it is set up in my .emacs, seems to just ignore everything I do there 16:00:58 trying a blank install again 16:01:14 -!- f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:17 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.134.65] has joined #lisp 16:01:25 try it by hand in a scratch buffer? are you certain your load path is ok? 16:01:39 dlowe, what are you working on? 16:02:23 willb [n=wibenton@wireless107.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:02:54 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@225.89-10-30.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:03:20 yvdriess: the windows version of emacs uses _emacs instead of .emacs. Perhaps you could try that 16:04:27 -!- danlei`` is now known as danlei 16:05:03 it's getting loaded, something wrong will produce an error 16:05:19 seems to load a VERY old sbcl version 16:05:21 1.0.2 16:05:22 Fare: I run a mud that's currently in C++, and I'm doing a full conversion 16:05:40 interesting 16:06:37 Fare: it's about 150k loc, so I've been doing a little here and there for a year or so. 16:06:44 which libraries are you using? 16:06:49 yvdriess: why are you using an old sbcl? and I thought this was a problem with slime? are you setting the inferior lisp incorrectly? 16:07:10 Fare: postmodern, split-sequence, local-time, cl-ppcre, cffi, and xmls 16:07:22 salex: that's why I think it's just ignoring my slime configurations in my .emacs 16:07:35 I gotta say I really hate the CSV format. 16:07:50 TDT: it's not too bad for numeric data 16:07:50 I'm trying to set the inferior lisp in their slime package config 16:08:03 yvdriess: but the sbcl isn't part of aquamacs, surely? So you set it up somehow 16:08:29 honestly, none of this is convincing me to change my mind that aquamacs is a bad idea :) 16:08:44 aquamacs is great 16:08:51 but this slime thing is driving me up the wall 16:09:12 (/ 3 4.0) is this the only way to avoid flat division? (do I always have to feed it floats?). Is there any way to explicitly require real division? 16:09:21 is there a TCP server? what do you use for your event loop? 16:09:24 <_3b> yvdriess: does starting emacs with --no-site-file change anything? 16:09:24 avdi [n=avdi@216.230.102.194] has joined #lisp 16:09:27 Fare: and stefil, of course 16:09:48 yvdriess: well, if you were using a carbon build of gnu emacs, you wouldn't be having these problems :P 16:09:49 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.134.65] has quit [] 16:09:50 Fare: I use sbcl's posix functions 16:10:03 salex: certainly true 16:10:05 I mean, do you use serve-events? 16:10:41 loxs: (float (/ 3 4)) 16:10:42 Fare: no. A few years ago, I tried using serve-events with network sockets and it didn't work very well. Things might have changed since 16:10:47 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:11:06 so you call select or poll directly? 16:11:14 Fare: yeah, I use select 16:11:55 Fare: I'm open to alternatives, however :) 16:12:02 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:12:15 though it's all working now and is unlikely to ever need changing in the future 16:12:21 Jabberwo_ [n=jens@mue-88-130-83-090.dsl.tropolys.de] has joined #lisp 16:12:25 when you refactor it, consider iolib's event loop 16:12:37 ejs1 [n=eugen@77-109-31-243.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 16:12:58 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C246.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:14 dlowe: Yeah, trying to get information out of a system, that isn't quoting stuff, so the parser for cl is complaining about it. A lot of reading when it'd be easiest if the system I'm getting this from just used quotes. 16:13:26 (for instance, to break the 1024 fd limit) 16:14:37 Fare: I feel safe in saying that it will never break the 1024 fd limit. But I'll look at iolib. It'd be helpful if there were some documentation on the web 16:14:44 csv format would be better if it were well specified. But it isn't. 16:15:09 another question from me. I see that there is a SBCL version for windows. I have no windows at hand to test at the moment. Can SBCL compile windows executables that need no sbcl to run? 16:15:20 I found out that the 'lisp' command in the environment was pointing to an old sbcl build, sigh 16:15:23 (oh, and ms access errors out when asked to produce csv!) 16:15:34 since I can't manage to set the inferior-lisp, I just changed the symbolic link 16:15:42 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:15:49 <_3b> loxs: it can, but they might not run on every windows system (which is true of sbcl in general) 16:15:58 damn you aquamacs 16:16:07 loxs: sbcl on windows is not super stable or portable. Better luck with clisp, corman cl, etc. 16:16:27 but at last, I have the banner animation again :D 16:16:28 f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 16:16:34 dlowe: fare-csv I wish there was more documentation on for sure :) 16:16:43 Fare, and if how much is code written for SBCL compatible with clisp/corman etc? 16:16:48 TDT: fare-csv is a crock. 16:17:27 <_3b> loxs: anything from the CL package should work on any of them, from sb-* packages on sbcl only 16:17:46 Fare: hmm? 16:17:57 <_3b> loxs: (though there are still some edge cases in the CL spec that might vary) 16:18:16 "since I can't manage to set the inferior-lisp" wtf? 16:18:36 _3b, so you suggest me to use another implementation (not sbcl) if I want portable programs that run on both linux and windows? 16:18:37 what happens if you set it by hand after loading? 16:18:53 TDT: that said, if you have questions or suggestions for improvement, you know my email 16:19:05 -!- s0ber [n=s0ber@114-45-226-156.dynamic.hinet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:19:24 <_3b> loxs: sbcl is good enough for development on windows if it runs, but probably not a good choice for deployment 16:19:31 loxs: depending what you are doing, you may not gain anything from using the same implemenation on different platforms 16:19:50 if you're relying on implemenation ffi or something, that's different 16:19:54 anyone used ccl on Windows? 16:19:56 <_3b> loxs: if you use portability libraries, it is usually not too hard to make code that runs on multiple implementations 16:21:12 ok, I'll look around (on the Internet) :) 16:22:45 -!- japhie [n=japhy@153.19.5.111] has quit [] 16:23:25 Fare: Well, the main thing is that I'm not sure what I can do about CSV files that don't have strings (with spaces) enclosed with quotes. Seems like the library reads fine if there are no spaces, but the csv I'm getting is a bit different unfortunately. 16:24:59 For example, "foo,bar,zar" is ok, "foo, bar car, zar" is not (putting quotes just to make more sense). I get ((LABELS FARE-CSV::END-OF-FIELD)) and an expectation of end-of-field. 16:25:48 TDT: can you send email? I'll try to fix it for you 16:26:00 if you can attach an example file, that's even better 16:26:46 Fare: k k, I'll send what I've been workign on. Thanks 16:27:32 drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 16:29:26 what reasons could there be to make a read-only socket stream ? 16:31:47 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:31:54 davazp [n=user@28.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:22 fe[nl]ix, as long as the other side has a write-only socket stream... 16:32:30 -!- f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:32:33 roygbiv [n=blank@pdpc/supporter/active/roygbiv] has joined #lisp 16:32:38 if both sides are read-only, that's not very useful indeed 16:32:52 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 16:33:17 fe[nl]ix: perhaps stick hardware on the other end.... 16:33:35 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:40 fe[nl]ix: security considerations may mandate that certain external channels be read only 16:35:49 etc. etc. 16:36:14 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[away] 16:36:40 H4ns: such as ? 16:37:35 salex: I'm "designing" a stream library and I can't think of a reason to add flags specifying whether a stream is readable/writeable 16:38:27 fe[nl]ix: just assume that someone wants to have read only or write only streams. 16:38:33 if you've got a read-only fd(pipe or file), the OS will signal it anyway when you try to write to it 16:39:10 fe[nl]ix: i'm not sure what you mean by "such as ?". there may be a security handbook that says "all external data sources must be opened in a read-only mode". 16:39:50 fe[nl]ix: ah, i understand. you're not asking why anyone would have such a beast, so much as why the abstraction should live in your library... 16:39:59 salex: exactly 16:40:10 H4ns: perfect, but that's unenforceable in lisp 16:40:15 'course, if you don't have it. the only way to test it out will be try and fail 16:41:00 fe[nl]ix: i'm not sure. if your stream library enforces read- or write onliness, there is no need to audit the application for writes to such streams. 16:41:42 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-26-82-254-81-70.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:41:42 fe[nl]ix: not that i'm in need of such a feature. i'm just playing the devil's advocate here. 16:41:56 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-46-82-253-223-45.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:06 I appreciate that :) 16:43:19 but since then only streams whose direction isn't enforced by the kernel are sockets 16:43:47 I can't think of a good reason to take a two-way socket fd and make a one-way stream out of it 16:43:51 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:59 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:44:38 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:47 f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 16:47:35 lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:47:48 -!- adeht is now known as _death 16:48:42 -!- a-s [n=user@85.9.55.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:50:30 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:51:25 -!- olejorge1b [i=bronner@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:52:49 costals [n=draven@13-5.252-81.static-ip.oleane.fr] has joined #lisp 16:53:45 sulo [n=sulo@p54A3FD68.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:52 -!- demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig108.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has left #lisp 16:58:11 jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has joined #lisp 16:58:30 Anyone here know how to build ECL on Windows? 16:59:29 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:00:13 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has joined #lisp 17:01:50 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 17:02:00 hello 17:03:04 -!- f7b5__ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:56 -!- f7b5_ [n=f7b5@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:06:33 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:07:50 stassats`: re your expanding to LOOP question; use (loop named #.(gensym) ...) 17:08:29 but then I do not recommend to expand to LOOP at all. Better expand to PROG. 17:12:32 hmm, if I'm starting to get it right, it means that lisp programs could easily store their data in files.... in lisp source code (which is data anyway)... I could even compile these files (for faster loading of the data)... and in such a way get performance in some setups better than using a database like mysql... WOW 17:12:51 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:13:11 loxs: Serialization can be tricky. 17:13:32 But in the simpler cases read/write might be enough. 17:13:45 databases can be tricky too :) 17:13:56 loxs: a database is rarely chosen for the "high performance" that it gives. 17:14:03 loxs: http://www.pentaside.org/paper/persistence-lemmens.txt 17:14:31 <_3b> H4ns: he did say 'database like mysql' though :) 17:15:00 _3b: "sure it does not have transactions, but look how fast it is" 17:15:21 *H4ns* recognizes that mysql now learned, after a few years, what a database really is. 17:15:23 Reminds me of reiserfs. 17:15:45 tfb [n=tfb@212.183.134.65] has joined #lisp 17:17:06 slime loads its version from the ChangeLog file, right? 17:17:13 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@hq-users.caci.com] has quit [] 17:17:14 H4ns: they seem to be reverting to the "serialized hashtable" approach again (: 17:18:31 Draggor: I've built ECL on windows, AFAIR the makefile worked out of the box 17:18:51 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 17:19:05 what I couldn't do was bundle _my_ lisp code into a standalone .exe, which it's supposed to be able to do 17:19:32 thanks for the link z0d 17:20:05 Phoodus: I have a feeling I'm being a bit dumb here, but where's the default make file? 17:20:16 it's been a bit ago, let me look 17:20:58 under the msvc directory 17:21:24 so it is 17:21:34 read the file first, and edit the options 17:23:44 there we go, thanks 17:24:22 remember when you invoke ECL, your compiler environment needs to be set up 17:24:30 since it calls cl.exe at runtime to compile .lisp files 17:24:51 japhie [n=japhy@213.192.75.1] has joined #lisp 17:25:24 I have a small .cmd file that calls vcvars.bat and then ECL to ensure that 17:25:46 attila_lendvai, I want to use your cl-serializer. Which type can I serializa/deserialie with it ? 17:26:41 serialize/deserialize 17:30:40 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 17:31:33 -!- tfb [n=tfb@212.183.134.65] has quit ["gone"] 17:32:23 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:20 -!- rumbleca [n=rumble@174.0.46.123] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:35:34 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:36:51 -!- pierpa [n=user@host202-182-static.80-94-b.business.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:38:55 loxs[] [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has joined #lisp 17:39:20 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:41:22 Cronos [n=a@5ace2ffe.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:50 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@158.223.51.84] has left #lisp 17:44:07 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:44:44 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:45:49 sulo_ [n=sulo@p54A3C60C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:26 kiuma: read the tests! 17:50:24 sbahra [n=sbahra@128.164.100.49] has joined #lisp 17:50:51 -!- H4ns is now known as Hans 17:50:57 -!- Hans is now known as H4ns 17:53:27 http://philosecurity.org/2009/01/12/interview-with-an-adware-author - adware! In Scheme! 17:55:08 H4ns, done 17:55:15 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:55:38 -!- costals [n=draven@13-5.252-81.static-ip.oleane.fr] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:56:30 a question about clsql, do you know how can I read and write data to a blob field using streams ? 17:56:31 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:57:54 -!- oklopol [n=nnscript@a91-153-121-248.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:57:57 kiuma: you could use flexi-streams and store/retrieve the blob through clsql 17:58:17 don't think you can compatibly use a stream directly to/from the db 17:58:18 -!- sulo [n=sulo@p54A3FD68.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:59:54 rsynnott, how do I store a big file into a table column using clsql (and restore) 18:00:14 haven't used clsql in a bit 18:01:00 but I assume you just do (insert :into [bla] :values `(,my-key ,my-huge-array)) 18:01:07 or whatever the scary syntax is :) 18:01:47 -!- loxs [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:18 rsynnott, it's for this reason that I wantes to use streams, to avoid to put a huge array into memory :/ 18:04:20 just how big a file do you wish to store in your database 18:04:21 ? 18:04:32 this isn't really what relational databases are FOR 18:05:28 -!- japhie [n=japhy@213.192.75.1] has quit [] 18:05:44 rsynnott, any size 18:05:51 drdo``` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:06:07 kiuma: Chop it into extents? 18:07:10 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 18:07:14 p_l, I don't understand ? 18:07:17 -!- gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.2.1"] 18:07:26 that's more or less what the database will probably do with it anyway :) 18:08:48 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.143.235] has joined #lisp 18:09:13 kiuma: Storing files in relational databases is a bad idea, that's the first thing. If any, store the metadata in the database. Extents are variable sized parts of the file referenced by the database 18:09:41 you can of course store those extents in another database/table/whatever 18:10:15 p_l: can you give some reasons why you think that "storing files in a database" is a "bad thing"? 18:10:38 p_l: ok this would solve me a lot of things, but isn't there a limit in numper of files per folder ? 18:10:42 H4ns: s|database|RDBMS| 18:10:57 p_l: there are several good reasons why one would want to put arbitary binary data into a database. consistency and referential integrity are propably the most popular ones. 18:11:23 H4ns, this is the point 18:11:23 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:11:43 kiuma: modern file systems don't mind a few thousand files in a directory. in bknr, we introduce one extra directory level just because, but it is not really a requirement. 18:12:04 H4ns: I agree, but I still think it's better when the database is actually designed for that, like NTFS or any other filesystem 18:12:09 a few hundred thousand, on the other hand... 18:13:00 rsynnott: Modern filesystems have similar lookup times to databases when it comes for filetree search. Assuming the VM system is helpful :P 18:13:17 the fact is that I need to store all the cms definitions properties and resources 18:14:22 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 18:17:30 hmmm... are the files indeed that large that they become memory problems? 18:18:39 p_l, If one want to associate an iso image to the cms tree node, yes :/ 18:19:14 erm, that definitely seems like the wrong thing to do 18:19:32 (and I think most databases will keep the whole thing in a buffer during insertion, anyway) 18:20:17 I don't know, I know that jdbc treats blob with streams 18:20:53 does asdf force the (optimize ...) settings? 18:21:09 -!- drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:21:18 in other words, help I can't find a way to force asdf to compile my stuff with debug 3 18:21:50 ok time to go home, I'll use the night to think about it 18:21:51 yvdriess: it shouldn't 18:21:58 do you have those settings globally? 18:22:10 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:22:12 so (declaim (optimize (speed 3)) before aving asdf compile-op :force t 18:22:15 should work? 18:22:31 kiuma: You can try by implementing a filesystem-in-RDBMs 18:23:19 if nothing else, don't most databases like to have an ongoing transaction in-memory? 18:23:19 a pretty easy to read example is unofficial NTFS docs, you don't need more than MFT part of it 18:23:53 *H4ns* has fond memories of amoebas soap and bullet servers 18:24:44 they did it right by separating the hierarchical name space from the blob store. today, we're still talking about "file systems" when we really mean either or the other. 18:25:11 kami-` [n=user@p4FD3A8FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:26:38 H4ns: Oh, actually we do name resolution independently most of the time, it's just that we store metadata near the data by default, so that it creates a single self-sustaining "node" 18:27:07 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:27:34 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 18:28:35 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:29:31 fossil+venti combo goes further by using a completely different storage system for archival purposes, one that is write-only too 18:33:36 sometimes, I've the feeling irc is a huge write-only frustration sink 18:34:05 Fare: isn't it great? (: 18:34:40 antifuchs, hey, happy new year! ltns 18:34:45 what's becoming of you? 18:34:58 and happy new year to you (: 18:35:36 I'm currently hacking on a railsish startup thing in london, then relocating to vienna for a while, then coming to san francisco for another short while (: 18:36:34 become a programmer! See the world! 18:36:41 in Ruby? 18:36:45 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:37:19 yeah, but I've carved my part such that most of what I do is write sql (-: 18:37:20 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@249.pool85-49-126.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:34 antifuchs: careful, slippery slope 18:39:40 drdo```` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:39:54 indeed 18:40:06 *rsynnott* went from Erlang/python programmer to largely person-who-knew-how-to-make-the-db-play-nice in last job 18:40:10 but better than writing ruby that writes sql (-: 18:40:24 it's not a good thing, and leads to phonecalls at unnatural hours of the morning 18:40:56 heh 18:41:14 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:41:37 drdo````` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:41:46 once we can afford redundancies, I'll make sure to be not the only person who knows how to make the db behave (: 18:42:12 -!- drdo```` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:42:58 for now, it's the neighbors' fire alarm keeping me up rather than outages or problems (*knocks on wood*) (: 18:44:08 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:49 hmm... railsish startup in London? 18:45:29 are you hand-writing the sql, or generating it from lisp ? :) 18:45:36 and now I am left with nothing but obscure trivia about MySQL 18:47:40 -!- Asgeir [n=asgeir@tri59-1-82-233-201-74.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["mi tawa!"] 18:51:05 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@cpe-67-243-48-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 18:52:10 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-4d1f1c1a0d93c03e] has joined #lisp 18:52:18 *Fare* experienced weirdnesses after having mistakenly run "firefox" in a sudo shell -- plenty of files were no-longer user-readable or writeable. Now firefox has joined the list of forbidden commands for root. 18:52:58 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@128.164.100.49] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:53:15 hmm, did it pick up the wrong user? 18:53:30 surely it should have used root's home directory 18:53:35 hmm, actually, maybe not 18:53:46 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:48 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:53 -!- drdo``` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:55:31 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@249.pool85-49-126.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 18:55:47 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:23 rsynnott: were you the one who was controlling linuxsampler via lisp? 18:56:54 egn: nope 18:56:59 k 18:57:01 I don't even know what linuxsampler is :) 18:57:28 heh kk 19:00:45 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progpc35.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 19:03:42 Fare: by default sudo doesn't change $HOME, so if you run firefox as root it will overwrite your user's config files. use sudo -i if you really want to run it as root 19:09:04 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 19:09:10 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:09:14 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:29 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.128.66] has joined #lisp 19:14:41 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Broken pipe] 19:15:01 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:39 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 19:18:46 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70c8bf.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:18:50 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:54 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:21:42 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.128.66] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:22:08 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:23:36 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 19:24:31 spooneybarger [n=spooneyb@cpe-74-73-111-254.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:30:40 -!- schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8cfca478816964e7] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:32:08 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:32:25 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:52 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:40:43 is sean ross in here from time to time? 19:41:27 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 19:41:50 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 19:46:05 rickardg [n=user@c-e51ae455.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:50:20 netaustin [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has joined #lisp 19:52:37 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-144.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:53:57 -!- Quadrescence is now known as Quadresce` 19:54:22 -!- Quadresce` is now known as Quadrescence 19:54:36 stassats [n=stassats@92-100-128-137.dynamic.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 19:56:22 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 19:56:29 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:58:44 Reini_Urban [n=chatzill@212-183-63-218.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:59:05 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:59:57 fe[nl]ix: sudo -H changes HOME. 20:00:27 Just in case you're interested. 20:01:02 that too. -i runs a login shell 20:01:52 surprisingly enough, this is all detailed in the man page. 20:02:33 -!- Cronos [n=a@5ace2ffe.bb.sky.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:03:44 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-51-233.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:03:49 -!- Reini_Urban is now known as rurban 20:04:14 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:00 salex: sure. 20:06:58 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:10:09 ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.91.23] has joined #lisp 20:10:14 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:59 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:17:51 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:53 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 20:17:54 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-217.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 20:18:09 qbg [n=qbg@74.33.102.125] has joined #lisp 20:19:15 -!- ZabaQ [n=jconnors@194-105-174-193.ifb.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:19:36 -!- drdo````` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:20:06 matley [n=matley@83.225.66.145] has joined #lisp 20:23:22 -!- ak70 [n=ak70@195.158.91.23] has left #lisp 20:25:06 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:25:26 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 20:26:48 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:26:52 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:27:51 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 20:28:35 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-217.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 20:38:12 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.74.10] has quit ["I'm not ready to bash on C++ yet. All of this stuff I'm writing, in blogs and the ADJ, is just practice for when I start b] 20:41:33 http://graphjam.files.wordpress.com/2008/12/mature-video-game.gif Qt goes LGPL : http://www.qtsoftware.com/about/news/lgpl-license-option-added-to-qt | | Latest version of Qt is 4.4.3++ 20:41:37 buh 20:41:40 sorry bout that 20:42:47 ah, yes, joyous news 20:43:38 heh, I hate it when I come and ask a question here and there, and no more than an hour later I come across it in the PCL book, heh. 20:43:50 The whole thing on streams earlier? Read it over lunch today 20:44:15 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:45 thus the "go read that-dead-sexy-book" answer for many questions :P 20:45:55 -!- loxs[] [n=loxs@83.228.122.198] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:46:00 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:22 TDT: ah, I thought you mentioned the content in the PCL was not elaborate enough? 20:46:33 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 20:46:48 lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:47:49 madnificent: I looked in the index and didn't find anything in the book on streams in general 20:48:34 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:48:35 Kinda ironic in a way that just finishing chapter 14 I stumble upon it and think "woops", although it didn't explain them conceptually that well, it did explain the functions for converting the two (stream -> string, string -> stream) 20:49:01 I can only connect once to swank, second time it connects but nothing happens. 20:49:08 a string cannot be converted into a stream, and neither the other way round. 20:49:20 maybe pcl is not so good at describing what either of them are. 20:49:55 sbahra [n=sbahra@128.164.102.67] has joined #lisp 20:50:17 H4ns: for an erronorous meaning of converting, it is possible :P (I think the idea is clear) 20:51:22 H4ns: Well, converted or represented, you can from my understanding - both someone here mentioned a way, plus the book - using make-string-input-stream, and with-input-from-string. 20:51:27 madnificent: i'm not sure if i can agree. i'm not normally known to insist on the level of precision that other lispers demand, but claiming that strings and streams are the same, or similar, and can be converted between each other is just beyond my tolerance. 20:51:35 lhz: did you set swank:*don't-close* to true? 20:51:48 oh, there shouldn't be an apostrophe there, obviously :) 20:51:49 H4ns: I mean in the context of string-type data. 20:51:57 TDT: you can read from a stream into a string, and you can make a stream that reads from a string. this is not the same as converting. 20:52:22 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 20:52:34 re 20:52:37 manuel_: ! 20:52:38 H4ns: you are right, it should probably not be tolerable... So TDT fix your statements! 20:53:01 there is some intolerance in _every_ lisper! 20:53:04 TDT: you can 'create' a stream from a string and vice-versa 20:53:06 heh, probably one of my largest downfalls talking with others is I do generalize a lot on stuff, heh. 20:53:18 H4ns: towards what? scheme? 20:53:33 madnificent: for example, good topic to develop an intolerance towards 20:53:34 I'm not super precise most of the time, heh, but I should learn to be. 20:53:53 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:53:55 TDT: i'd be happy with "more precise" to begin with :) 20:54:09 we demand precision, excellence, and clean code! 20:54:21 manuel_: and ponies 20:54:23 i'm intolerant to general statements about lispers 20:54:31 H4ns: of course 20:54:33 stassats: also good! 20:54:52 TDT: I have this hunch, that lisp forces you to be more precise in your wording. Things become clearer, so slight impresision becomes utterly weird. Just an idea 20:55:16 *H4ns* sprinkles some irony tags into the channel and returns to working 20:55:20 when i write in lisp, i tend to be way more sloppy and imprecise than in other languages 20:55:23 madnificent: Yeah, well that and hanging out here will likely help me become a bit more precise :) 20:55:28 H4ns: irony? you can't have that 20:55:33 H4ns: it's not precise 20:56:12 unhandled exception "ERROR :: H4ns is proven not to be a bot" 20:57:19 manuel_: see, it dependes what the other languages are 20:57:27 if they're C and haskell, that makes sense 20:57:34 if they're PHP, you have problems ;) 20:57:36 rsynnott: java, c, c++, python, assembler 20:57:42 :] 20:57:49 mostly c and assembler at the moment 20:57:50 so yeah 20:58:24 I really can't say I enjoy working in C/C++ a whole lot. 20:58:44 heh 20:59:24 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf651.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:01:23 japhie [n=japhy@vide-sat.pl] has joined #lisp 21:01:43 -!- spec[away] is now known as mrSpec 21:02:06 -!- ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit ["Maintainance."] 21:02:19 i'm stuck 21:05:46 maybe not 21:08:34 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:10:25 oklopol [n=nnscript@a91-153-121-248.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 21:12:39 _8david` [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:12:46 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:14:05 -!- qbg [n=qbg@74.33.102.125] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:14:28 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@128.164.102.67] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:18:41 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 21:19:55 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 21:21:14 hello, before I go to sleep, do you know if there is a CL binding library for git ? 21:21:33 what for? 21:21:48 sbahra [n=sbahra@128.164.102.133] has joined #lisp 21:22:03 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-100-211.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 21:22:06 to call git commands 21:22:32 (run-program "git" '("commit" "-a")) 21:23:02 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-88-217-65-32.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 21:23:20 and an eventual failure ? 21:23:52 cads_awaay [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:56 kiuma: last time I asked, someone here was interested in creating a binding... I'm rather sure it isn't finished yet (so go ahead! :P) 21:26:18 madnificent, my friend told me that a better way to store the cms-tree, would be to use git (that would give versioning capabilities too) 21:26:54 kiuma: though I have toyed with the idea, a simple version-integer in the database will do too , and will probably do better 21:28:00 -!- _8david [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:28:58 I toyed with the idea of using git for collecting data from patients, which had to be in a VCS of some sort and needed to be local to each research departement (which had to be able to 'upstream' data to some central place when they wanted to do so)... 21:29:19 HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 21:29:35 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 21:30:03 madnificent, but I have to version huge files too 21:30:10 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:42 kiuma: I think/hope you're overestimating the size of the cms tree. In any case, if it does have to get really really really big, wouldn't you want it to be read from the database upon need versus keeping a massive (with big I'm ussuming > 10000 items) in memory? 21:33:35 -!- Maahes [n=Mihos@cpe-76-169-173-133.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:33:40 in any case, database generally makes it easier to handle. I don't see why you would step back from that approach after implementing it 21:34:29 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.193.46] has joined #lisp 21:34:52 Maahes [n=Mihos@cpe-76-169-173-133.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:36:23 madnificent, I'm not sure that I want to complitely abandon the database approach, but a node must be able to have any kind of property, even huge files 21:36:58 node properties are binary data of any size and kind 21:37:24 kiuma: your approach frightens me, sorry. Someone else might give advise on stuff like that 21:38:22 ok no problem, I have to stop thinking about it and take the problem again tomorrow 21:38:36 in that case: good night :) 21:38:44 cu 21:38:48 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:38:49 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 21:39:27 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:51 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:52 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:40:21 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 21:41:16 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD3A8FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 21:42:07 -!- LostMonarch [n=roby@host234-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 21:42:13 i'm still a little stuck, but i've made progress 21:46:49 keep us updated 21:47:39 lispm: i so much bit my tongue not to make this or a similar comment, and now you again made us lispers look unfriendly and cynical again!1elf 21:47:51 (incf H4ns) 21:48:21 us lispers except stassats of course 21:48:26 no! I'm now really curios what he does! 21:48:29 ;-) 21:48:42 H4ns: hehe 21:49:01 well maybe it is time to ask for help 21:50:03 syamajala: whatcha doin? 21:50:09 haha 21:50:44 i'm working on a blog 21:51:06 H4ns: sometimes the newbies are too shy, you have to help them that they tell their story ;-) 21:51:22 lispm: ok. i'm cool with that. 21:51:38 and i have a function that returns a list like this (("month" year post-object) ("month" year post-object) ...) 21:53:04 i would like to reorder the list so it is like this (:year year :months (:month month :posts (list of post-objects))) 21:53:26 -!- sulo_ [n=sulo@p54A3C60C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:53:45 syamajala: i often use a GROUP-ON function to do such things. 21:54:28 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:54:38 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:54:44 loop over posts -> put in hash by year -> loop over key/vals -> put in correct hash by month -> ... 21:54:52 syamajala: http://bknr.net/trac/browser/trunk/bknr/datastore/src/utils/utils.lisp#L242 21:56:16 syamajala: it is a function that does what madnificent describes, basically. you supply a key function, and the function returns lists with the entries grouped according to that key. 21:56:37 i think my problem was that i was using a complicated do 21:57:32 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:57:56 syamajala pasted "post collection" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73600 21:58:05 thats what i managed to come up with in half an hour 21:58:22 ooc, why are you using do? 21:58:24 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:58:28 but it depends on the order of list passed to the function 21:58:44 -!- kami-` [n=user@p4FD3A8FE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:58:45 and it doesn't exactly return the list structure i want 21:59:00 is your above list format correct (("month" year post-object)) ? 21:59:10 salex: because its what i remember how to do... 21:59:31 -!- sbahra [n=sbahra@128.164.102.133] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:41 madnificent had the right idea 21:59:55 salex: this is what the function returns (("January" 2009 #) ("January" 2009 #)) 22:00:13 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:00:59 i never really used loop, i used to do stuff using tail recursion and iteration, but its been a while since i've written anything tail recursively 22:01:28 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 22:03:13 language question: (meaning= "must not introduce" "is not allowed to introduce") 22:03:39 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 22:03:51 madnificent: basically yes. must not disallows. 22:04:16 syamajala: you can take it apart with something like (loop with hash = (make-hashtable) for (month year post) in list do (setf (gethash year hash) (list month post))) 22:04:25 moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 22:04:39 then walk over the year and hash by months... 22:04:43 *madnificent* dislikes his school book 22:05:07 was waht madnificent was suggesting. it would work well enough 22:05:33 otoh, you can stick to alists or whatever if you want, just build them up the same way. don't try and do everyithng at once 22:05:35 I'm rather certain that you are allowed to define an implementation of a virtual function in C++ 22:06:09 <_death> madnificent: it may mean "not necessary to introduce" in certain contexts 22:06:30 madnificent, btw, just curious, to add versioning to a db you'd simply add a 'version' integer to a table, never update existing entries but create new ones bumping the version, and then have some kind of data structure keeping track of the subsequent versions for each entry in a given table? I guess this is not built-in in any DB? 22:07:15 syamajala: (group-on :key #'second) with list being the input list would yield (( .. ) ( ..) ..), it is the equivalent of a GROUP BY clause in sql and very useful for this kind of task. 22:07:41 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 22:08:20 xan_: generic full versioning is not available in any database to my knowledge. i think this is because it is basically too hard a problem to solve in a general fashion. 22:08:42 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:09:28 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:31 H4ns, I see. I've searched a bit about that but never really found anything, guess it's roll-your-own time as usual :) 22:09:41 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 22:09:51 ok, i think i have an idea how to do it now 22:10:03 or a better idea i mean 22:10:34 H4ns, but I was thinking that wikis in general must do something similar to be able to support undo in their pages 22:11:03 xan_: sure, but they do it in an application specific fashion i guess. 22:11:04 well, not only undo, but "see all revisions and diffs between them" 22:11:05 -!- ignas [n=ignas@85.206.184.35] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 22:11:14 xan_: mediawiki keeps a div, I think 22:11:16 yep, I guess 22:11:16 diff 22:12:27 _8david [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 22:12:54 -!- Jabberwo_ [n=jens@mue-88-130-83-090.dsl.tropolys.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:13:09 I see kiuma's point though, it would be easier to dump the whole blob each time and use git to keep track of it and compress it, which is basically what it's good at 22:13:31 -!- davazp [n=user@28.Red-88-25-186.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:42 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:13:44 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:53 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:15:00 you can use a write-only content-addressed system and add garbage collection, then put necessary references in database :) 22:15:48 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:15:50 Then you store only versioned metadata in database, and pull the actual content from the write-only store 22:16:14 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:16:28 write-only like perl code? :p 22:16:31 xan_: I think it would make it harder to implement & keep clean. It is generally not to easy to say, hey go back to revision F1212AE54... 22:16:55 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:16:56 <_3b> p_l: isn't that basically git, or does it miss some of those features? 22:17:37 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:17:43 _3b: Git is quite different, though it probably uses a similar scheme. What I'm actually referencing is Venti 22:18:01 Venti has only two operations: read and write 22:18:10 a good git <-> CL connection would be welcome though 22:18:18 madnificent, might be, I haven't really given it much thought 22:18:42 a native cl implementation of git would be neat 22:18:50 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:57 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:01 write accepts block of max 56 kilobytes and returns a hash, which then can be used with read to request said block from store 22:19:19 git is especially good at merging/branching and being decentralized. IMHO it is especially bad in providing a comprehensible interface 22:19:35 <_3b> p_l: interesting, will have to read more about it at some point 22:19:52 Anyone here who knows PL/I? Iirc that's where the ideas behind CL's condition system originally came from. 22:20:01 <_3b> p_l: sounds like same basic idea as git, just different usage patterns/api 22:20:10 I wonder whether PL/I had non-stack-unwinding exception 22:20:14 or where that came from 22:20:17 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-232-155.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 22:20:36 _3b: It's the preferred storage system of Plan 9, to be exact fossil (a log filesystem with snapshotting) and Venti as archival store that fossil can use to write it's snapshots to, thus "cleaning" the log 22:20:36 madnificent, it has improved a lot in the last year or two 22:20:41 (ui wise) 22:20:53 <_3b> p_l: yeah, skimming the wikipedia page for it 22:21:30 xan_: I use it, I like it. But when letting people learn git, they all go through this phase in which they are scared that git will destroy all their data. 22:21:37 md` [n=user@213-151-238-36.icss.sk] has joined #lisp 22:22:20 madnificent, well, I've seen people go through that learning cvs, so... 22:22:39 madnificent: For some reason "destroy all their data" reminded me of how many times I've read about "buying sysadmin a calculator" at the end of many partitioning FUBARs 22:22:43 xan_: I never saw it happen with (help me, I'm being the devils advocate) svn 22:22:56 -!- netaustin [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has quit [] 22:23:26 I guess I hang out with dumber people than you? :) 22:23:33 Hi, is there a way in SBCL to set default 'float' type to be single-float? So that when I define a type in structure slot to be float, it actually means single-float? 22:23:34 even people that know svn, get scared by git's (far superior) approach 22:23:42 xan_: lucky you, it gave you an argument!: P 22:23:56 madnificent: Well, git has this _one_ condition where the repo can (and probably will) destroy part of the data 22:24:30 and AFAIK it's something not caused by ui :) 22:24:35 p_l: tell me please. I've seen people destroy their repos, and generally they don't know what they have done (so I can't warn the next guy) 22:24:44 md`: what's your goal? 22:25:19 madnificent: It's something completely different - namely at least up to some point, git's repos were suspectible to problems should they ever get a collision on hashing 22:25:29 I would like to tell SBCL that all float type declarations mean 'single-float' to get faster code 22:25:33 sbahra [n=sbahra@c-76-21-209-249.hsd1.dc.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:56 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 22:25:58 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.66.145] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:26:09 matley [n=matley@83.225.66.145] has joined #lisp 22:26:12 I think I read somewhere that there is a function to be called which does that, but I can't find it now :( 22:26:24 madnificent: Like no support for collision detection 22:27:42 p_l: ahhh, then they're probably doing something else :) I still find it slightly frightening, but I guess it's something they'll have to go through. It is worth the hassle 22:28:18 -!- _8david` [n=user@port-212-202-18-15.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:31:57 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:31 good evenin' 22:33:56 good evening fusss 22:34:00 -!- jhc_ [n=jhc@adsl-68-23-84-102.dsl.dytnoh.ameritech.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:34:36 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:34:51 just got another opportunity to use clisp fastcgi for form submission. good to know i'm 100% php-free nowadays :-) 22:34:53 <_death> md: I suppose you could do something very ugly and fragile like (deftype read-default-float () *read-default-float-format*) and then use it like (defstruct whatever (x 1.0 :type read-default-float)) .. in fact, you can't write the former in SBCL, which seems like a bug.. you'd need something like (identity *read-default-float-format*) rather than the plain atom 22:36:10 <_death> md: then you can set that variable to whatever you want and compile everything 22:36:12 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:36:22 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:33 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["leaving"] 22:37:06 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 22:37:20 jhc [n=jhc@adsl-68-23-84-102.dsl.dytnoh.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:30 -!- avdi [n=avdi@216.230.102.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:40:53 -!- HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:25 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:01 what system should I be using for semi-portable searching of paths? 22:44:19 i.e. I can't use DIRECTORY and its braindead auto-truenaming. 22:44:57 (only as a last resort) 22:45:15 but I don't want to reinvent groveling directories with C syscalls manually. 22:45:34 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@d54C2899A.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 22:46:24 Fare: you are not looking for :follow-symlinks, are you? 22:47:03 not portable 22:47:10 -!- japhie [n=japhy@vide-sat.pl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:47:45 Fare: right, but you could, say, have the porters supply a suitable implementation and add a compatibility layer. using syscalls certainly would not be portable. 22:48:21 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 22:48:57 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 22:50:24 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:36 triqon [n=henri@hrk.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 22:51:27 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:31 ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:51:44 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.163.184] has joined #lisp 22:51:51 japhie [n=japhy@vide-sat.pl] has joined #lisp 22:53:45 Fare: maybe osicat:walk-directory 22:54:09 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77-109-31-243.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has left #lisp 22:54:41 Fare: Hey, sent you that email earlier that you requested. I hope it makes sense and didn't end up in your spam folder, hhe 22:55:15 There's some other stuff that I'm thinking that if I'm understanding the code correctly can cause other issues as well. 22:55:21 fe[nl]ix: Cl-Fad comes with a walk-directory, too. 22:55:23 TDT: got it. 22:55:29 Will try to handle it after work 22:55:52 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:55:54 fe[nl]ix, would be more like what I want. So, osicat or cl-fad ? 22:56:33 osicat is walking the directory probably using posix syscalls 22:56:41 yes 22:56:53 cl-fad is a compatibility layer across common lisp implementations 22:56:59 no syscalls involved 22:57:31 I'm not sure which makes most sense for future-proofing the thing. 22:57:43 It's a windows vs rest of the world issue, I suppose. 22:57:57 does osicat plan to provide windows equivalents? 22:57:58 k k, thanks Fare. 22:58:01 Fare: cl-fad seems like being more light weight. 22:58:02 If cl-fad's walk-directory does what you want, I'd go with it 22:58:07 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 22:58:07 Fare: try them both. my personal stance on this is that compatibility layers are to be avoided at all costs. they're either too limited or unpredictable 22:58:23 I'm with fe[nl]ix on this one 22:58:24 That's what I'm afraid of, yeah 22:58:35 especially since in the future I intend to add forking and stuff to xcvb 22:58:50 you madman! 22:59:00 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:14 dysinger_ [n=tim@166.129.204.161] has joined #lisp 22:59:50 I'd rather see osicat growing a windows extension/counterpart and at least be sure things are working the same way on all implementations on all unices 22:59:51 Fare: there are plans, in the sense that it would be nice and patches are welcome. that said, I don't use windows 23:00:02 (as for genera... it can't fork anyway, and no one uses it) 23:00:12 Fare: windows can't fork either. 23:00:18 -!- rickardg [n=user@c-e51ae455.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:00:22 Fare: You can use POSIX directory calls on NT 23:00:28 H4ns, cygwin can, with a lot of efforts. 23:00:29 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 23:00:35 So what if you want hunchentoot to log access like apache would but your not using mod-lisp? 23:00:41 p_l, but do they do what you expect? 23:01:00 Fare: true, but you were talking about portability. 23:01:07 Fare: osicat can't entirelybe windowsized because win32 is inherently broken. symlinks, permissions, and user-info is broken across windows versions. 23:01:08 kzar: it writes log to /tmp/hunchentoot.log 23:01:09 Fare: Yes, if you actually bind to POSIX subsystem. Dunno about redistribution licenses for it 23:01:19 kzar: you'd write your own logging function. 23:01:25 I guess if you're using windows, the fork-based backend won't work. 23:01:29 H4ns: bugger ok 23:01:38 So, boundp 23:01:45 Whoops. Figured it out. :) 23:01:50 kzar: the standard log is somewhat similar to the apache log, maybe that's enough for you. 23:01:55 and porters can always add compatibility layers in xcvb itself when they want it. 23:02:15 Fare: OSS Lisps on win32 have widely non-working multiprocessing capabilities atm. 23:02:33 H4ns: Well it doesn't seem to include access stuff, just errors. Thing is from what I read in the manual the setting to enable that only is used if mod-lisp is used 23:02:36 Fare: Windows doesn't see fork as default process creation method, so implementing it using only Win32 API is quite hard 23:02:44 kzar: there is an access.log, too. 23:02:47 H4ns: At the moment anyway it's just logging errors 23:02:47 fusss: the only multiprocessing capability I really *need* is spawn, which windows kind of has 23:03:13 Fare: I can write the posix compat stuff for you in C, but your project will have to include a win32 DLL. sounds acceptable? 23:03:20 fusss: Corman Lisp has native threading on Win32 23:03:28 I already have my own addons to mingw 23:03:37 p_l, windows users may have to use clisp/cygwin to compile xcvb itself (which will be able to drive any other windows lisp) 23:03:41 H4ns: how do I enable that? 23:03:43 fusss: Why not link to posix.dll? 23:03:48 p_l: I said "OSS Lisps". I use LW and it does great too. 23:03:50 p_l: nice joke :D 23:04:02 kzar: it is enabled by default i think. check the docs 23:04:16 H4ns: It is, I have but it isn't logging access http://www.weitz.de/hunchentoot/#*show-access-log-messages* 23:04:18 fe[nl]ix: Not a joke. microsoft C compiler actually had a /POSIX flag last time I checked :D 23:04:20 anyway, I will gladly accept windows patches, but won't do it. 23:04:30 I hear that ECL has good thread support on win32 23:04:32 H4ns: I think it only works if mod-lisp is enabled according to that which seems odd 23:04:46 ECL also has native threading 23:04:48 p_l: I build my windows software with mingw (dev-cpp) and it IS posix.dll, but the mingw posix layer != cygwin. it's less complete and much more higher performing. 23:05:11 fusss: I mean native NT posix support 23:05:14 SUA 23:05:18 does osicat offer a portability layer to represent unix pathnames? 23:05:24 Fare: maybe it is just me, but i would think that xcvb should try to be common lisp as much as it can and not directly rely on C apis whatsover. this would make a case for using cl-fad. 23:05:31 bypassing the clhs craziness about pathnames? 23:05:37 Fare: no 23:05:39 p_l: mingw doesn't have that :-) but I have my own library. 23:05:59 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.66.145] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:06:05 kzar: if in doubt, just look at the source. 23:06:08 H4ns, point taken. Hum. 23:06:42 fusss: Well, in case of Vista Ultimate/Enterprise, Windows Server and Windows 7 Ultimate, SUA is bundled with system, you only need to download the lacking apps (which iclude GCC) 23:06:44 H4ns: Yea I guess I'll have a browse through it 23:06:57 other than that I'm not sure about the licencing 23:07:07 I know that my friend had previous version working on XP 23:07:21 Fare: i agree that for multiprocessing, something else will be needed and maybe an osicat backend is the best thing for unix. but this should be optional. 23:07:22 is there a git/whatever source for cl-fad, or only the tar.gz on edi's site? 23:07:33 kzar: use-apache-log-p is by default true, did you set it to nil? 23:07:43 Fare: the web site mentions luis' (?) darcs repository 23:07:45 p_l: riiiiight, and DELL just gave me a free coupon to "upgrade" my new vista box to XP :-D 23:07:51 Fare: http://common-lisp.net/~loliveira/ediware/cl-fad 23:08:26 stassats: No I don't believe os 23:09:22 H4ns: libc is the de facto interface to the OS, on windows and unices. I prefer distasteful use of C instead of implementation-dependent stuff 23:09:30 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:09:40 fe[nl]ix: i don't. 23:09:54 stassats: "this parameter has no effect if mod-lisp-p is NIL. " which I guess it is as I'm not using mod-lisp 23:10:27 fe[nl]ix: i don't think that including posix in the de-facto common lisp standard is the right direction to go. 23:10:46 I'm with fe[nl]ix on this one. But I think I'll use cl-fad for this particular thing. 23:12:06 fusss: That's cause a giant part of windows application writers never learnt to read documentation 23:12:16 fe[nl]ix: and btw: i'm not with you in your claim that "libc is the de-facto standard for os interfacing". today, operating systems provide for facilities way beyond what libc provides, and libc's functionality only covers a limited area 23:12:20 kzar: then it should work, works for me, at least, if i'm correctly understanding what "appache access log" mean 23:12:22 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:12:22 fusss: and assume everything is a Win9x 23:12:32 p_l: don't put this on us. application writers didn't make Vista :-P 23:13:13 fusss: Application writers are the one who don't understand that "those flags are RESERVED for FUTURE USE" means "THOU SHALL NOT SET THOSE" 23:13:55 also, thanks to idiots who force backward-compatibility stuff on NT, they cannot remove some cruft 23:14:12 fe[nl]ix: furthermore, there is significant overlap between what common lisp provides and what libc provides. it just does not make sense to assume libc interfaces as being always available in common lisp just because it covers some areas better than common lisp itself. 23:14:13 H4ns: right, there are also other libraries, but my point stands: they're all shared libraries with entry points that adhere to the C ABI of that platform 23:14:29 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@d54C2899A.access.telenet.be] has quit [] 23:14:33 system writers are those who do not initialize the flags to random value per process, then kill the process with a vengeance if it ever changes it. 23:14:38 antoni [n=antoni@70.pool85-53-6.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:14:39 H4ns: the other two alternatives I see would be: 1) make the various CL implementors agree on a new standard or 2) build a CL OS 23:14:40 p_l: NT's capability based security layer is an utter nightmare. Passing massive structures around between kernel and user mode just to test permissions. Calling the same function once, twice and three times in a row, because Win32 insists on "port knocking" type calling sequences. 23:14:45 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.143.235] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:14:46 fe[nl]ix: you're wrong. consider objective c 23:15:14 H4ns, what about objective c? 23:15:37 stassats: Ahh I set the :use-apache-log-p to nil, then it started working properly 23:15:41 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:15:45 fe[nl]ix: the third alternative is to provide compatibility packages for specific areas that may or may not be mapped to posix interfaces. 23:15:47 stassats H4ns: cheers 23:16:08 H4ns: I didn't say they're written in C, but that they're all compatible with C 23:16:21 fusss: I'm not saying it's ideal, but certain management style known as "backward compatibility FIRST!" makes it hard to replace :) 23:16:28 H4ns: I like that 23:17:25 eek, 6 pm. i need to go to bed. 23:17:26 H4ns: "may or may not be mapped to posix interfaces" means implementation-dependent stuff. I don't want implementation-dependent APIs. I want *identical* APIs and behaviour 23:17:35 hood night hans 23:17:36 fe[nl]ix: yes. you want unix. 23:17:44 H4ns even 23:17:47 fe[nl]ix: too bad, no pony for you 23:17:55 good 23:17:59 damn 23:18:11 -!- H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:18:22 how do I test that a file is the latest version? 23:18:43 walk-directory doesn't offer this option -- will be useless on genera 23:18:50 <_death> fusss: Windows has a capability-based security layer? 23:20:00 _death: Windows problem is that it has several different security layers, which cover different subsystems and have different APIs :D 23:20:29 it has nothing todo with backward compatibility and everything to do with LPSECURITY_ATTRIBUTES, LPSECURITY_DESCRIPTOR, SECURITY_INFORMATION, and ACL_INFORMATION_CLASS being fucking large structs that need to filled in some non-deterministic order and catered to like babies. 23:20:55 _death: yes, some tri-state thinggie that's pain in the ass 23:20:58 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 23:21:00 windows' problem is that a zillion-line system has to be developed by a loose team with the constraint of preserving backwards-compatibility with all previous bugs and misdesigns. 23:21:20 that too. Though I have to say, that Windows 7 really surprised me. At this speed they might recover it :) 23:21:30 recover what? 23:21:47 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk84.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:21:58 Fare: Any good points it might have, lost somewhere around 1995 23:22:11 you mean 1975? 23:22:16 p_l: and the security of Windows is transparently broken across file systems. You can mount an NTFS over network and if you have your SMB credentials you can bypass the file attributes or some weird shit. 23:23:15 Fare: 1975 is older than NT design and thus not relevant. WinAPI place should have been in emulation library, like it was designed to be, not where it is now 23:23:20 fusss: as opposed to the NFS model. 23:23:44 fusss: I wonder how it works with SMB2, though 23:23:47 cads_ [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:05 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:25 milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.98] has joined #lisp 23:26:15 -!- cads_awaay [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 23:26:17 p_l: If history is any indicator, SMB2 will fix something things already broken, and break other things anew. 23:26:21 this is meaby stupid question, but why (setf (getf ...) does not work like (setf (aref... if you pass plist to function 23:26:31 i'm confused with this 23:27:37 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:28:12 milanj: how doesn't it work? 23:29:23 fuss: weird i've never had the ntfs acl bypassed on windows based servers. 23:29:28 samba ignores them of course 23:29:34 -!- japhie [n=japhy@vide-sat.pl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:29:42 milanj: (setf getf) modifies the place, since property lists, just like lists, aren't first class containers. 23:30:10 -!- md` [n=user@213-151-238-36.icss.sk] has left #lisp 23:30:12 stupid naming question: 23:30:14 milanj: are you setting the property of a fresh symbol? 23:30:25 fusss: fresh symbol 23:30:30 <_death> fusss: it's `getf' not `get' 23:30:53 every BUILD.lisp file will have some kind of URL, fullname, whathaveyou, that identifies the project it describes 23:31:07 with some global hierarchical naming. 23:31:19 pkhoung: but it adds in some situations 23:31:26 not just setf place 23:31:33 is :name a good name for this field? 23:32:12 milanj: defparameter or defvar the symbol, if it's a top level, first. 23:32:25 milanj: sure, it's undefined what happens. You can only be sure that the place now points to a plist with the new association. 23:33:34 aha, pkhoung so it's udefined behavior 23:33:35 it might modify the plist in place or not; for example, it's hard to modify the empty list in place. 23:33:52 aha, so that is why i didnt get that 23:34:06 i thought it's defined on globals or something 23:34:16 and sounds ugly 23:35:16 as for the search-path, it will be eagerly visited by xcvb, with names being mapped to build files according to the following principle: 23:35:34 * files in previous path of the search path have precedence. 23:35:34 -!- moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:35:52 milanj: if you're playing at the repl, do (defparameter *my-symbol* nil) then call getf and setf to your heart's content. 23:35:54 * files in an ancestor directory have precedence 23:36:12 * other conflicts are marked as such and generate an error if use is attempted 23:36:12 yes, fusss 23:36:27 japhie [n=japhy@vide-sat.pl] has joined #lisp 23:36:35 that thing confused me, couse it's also add things in top level 23:36:36 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:36:53 Beeet [n=stathis@ppp103-195.adsl.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:37:27 milanj: it's meant to save you from typos that would send you to debugging hell. don't pull symbols out of thin air. 23:37:35 zeller [n=chatzill@dhcp-063096.mobile.uci.edu] has joined #lisp 23:38:36 H4ns [n=hans@72-255-89-166.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:43 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [No route to host] 23:39:40 ok, thanks 23:43:42 fusss: Well, it will break stuff that is dependant on SMB being backward-compatible 23:44:16 I lately read about how the basic difference between NT API and WinAPI was used to block users from editing a registry key :D 23:45:39 Tordek [n=tordek@host188.190-226-117.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 23:46:26 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 23:47:47 -!- japhie [n=japhy@vide-sat.pl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:47:53 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:50:58 #+genera (equal (truename x) (truename (make-pathname :version :latest :defaults x))) 23:51:49 if i install a package using clbuild (or asdf-install), how do i load it? 23:51:58 p_l: and before that we used Win32 strings in 16-bit APIs to foil patchers that used memory search :-) 23:52:32 fusss, how do strings differ then? 23:52:39 fusss: But you haven't used NE executables? :D 23:53:42 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 23:53:55 Fare: 16bit apps were ascii. you could call 32 bit unicode string creation functions internally and crackers couldn't find them in memory dumps. 23:54:47 p_l: i wouldn't bet on it :-) used to load overlays from disk and transform the process to something else at run time :-P 23:55:45 (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :library-name) 23:55:46 whereas crackers were only looking for UCS-2 strings? 23:55:52 but it can't find the library 23:56:14 Fare: ascii strings 23:56:25 felideon, does its asd (or symlink to it) appear in your central-registry? 23:57:16 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:57:29 fusss: Shiny. All this stuff kinds of reminds me how copy protection worked on Office XP. It isn't hard to see why MS had gone back to the protection scheme used in Office 2k :D 23:58:03 Fare: hmm probably not 23:58:09 p_l: what copy-protection was used in either case? 23:58:34 p_l: feel free to elaborate. many of us are "scenesters", but that might be offtopic :-) 23:58:45 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:59:08 *Fare* hasn't dealt with copy protection much since the days of the Apple ][. 23:59:29 *Fare* remembers cracking Prince of Persia on a PC, and Mathematica on Linux, long ago. 23:59:30 There was IIRC this one library that was crucial to all Office XP applications, which had _all_ of its symbol table.. wrong 23:59:40 felideon: (push #p"/path/to/your/library/but/don't/forget/the/closing/slash/" asdf:*central-registry*)