00:00:00 although, I admit that I don't have a deep enough understanding og sbcl's FFI 00:00:12 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BF3D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:00:14 drewc: I think I can understand how call/cc would help. 00:00:49 fusss: I'm going to try to set something up where each user has their own documents they can edit. 00:00:54 ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:00:59 danlei [n=user@pD9E2E9ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:08 kleppari: this isn't necessarily the problem, but your ffi definition is not the same as the type of the C function 00:01:34 ahaas: what i described works. hunchentoot sessions work perfectly for that. 00:01:46 kleppari: the FFI says it returns a pointer, the C says it returns a structure (and the FFI doesn't understand returning structures as values, so don't do that) 00:02:51 so, I should modify the C app to return a pointer, instead of a whole structure? 00:02:55 rvirding as in Ericssons Rovert Virding, one of the men behind Erlang? 00:03:35 kleppari: yep. wrap the call to get_stats and allocate memory for the intended result and instead that value's pointer 00:03:39 knapr: yes, it's partly my fault :-) 00:03:51 fusss: I haven't had a need for sessions so far, but I think I originally dismissed it b/c I was attempting to keep things RESTful. 00:03:59 kleppari: yeah, and I'm probing the depths of my memory for something pertaining to cstrings, which might be your real problem 00:04:00 ok. But how would I free that from ffi? 00:04:06 fusss: But, like I said, I haven't had a need and that may have been short-sighted. 00:04:13 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.158.129] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:04:15 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:32 nevermind :) 00:04:34 *hefner* never remembers how to use alien 00:05:07 kleppari: call free ;) 00:05:44 pkhuong: yeah, I realised. :) 00:06:22 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:35 you don't even need to dynamically allocate it 00:06:48 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-111-32.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:07:00 ah, of course not, I could just return the value from &foo? 00:07:21 fusss pasted "Hunchentoot session-based login" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73450 00:07:42 ahaas: that works for me; i do that over SSL 00:08:22 the html is krm's LML (version 1) 00:08:25 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-063-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:08:38 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 00:08:41 -!- bluelightningvid [n=camerong@12-219-181-193.client.mchsi.com] has left #lisp 00:08:42 fusss: Thanks. I'll check it out as soon as I get back. I gotta run out for a couple hours. 00:08:45 knapr: and star of the silver screen of course 00:09:10 kleppari: not sure what you mean, I'm just thinking you do (with-alien ((rest (struct net-io))) .. and pass get-stats the pointer to it 00:09:24 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:09:44 *fusss* doesn't miss doing FFIs 00:10:08 hefner: ahh, ok 00:10:28 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:12:26 -!- runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:13:21 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 00:13:54 bluelightningvid [n=camerong@12-219-181-193.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:58 (defun hashobjs (objs) 00:13:58 (let ((hash (make-hash-table))) 00:13:58 (labels ((f (objs) 00:13:58 (if (endp objs) 00:13:58 hash 00:13:59 (progn 00:14:01 (setf (gethash hash (location-coords (car objs)) (car objs))) 00:14:03 (f (cdr objs)))))) 00:14:05 (f objs)))) 00:14:06 bluelightningvid: please use paste.lisp.org 00:14:13 o lo siento 00:15:05 blueligthningvid pasted "what is this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73451 00:15:13 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.240.179.154] has quit [] 00:15:24 kleppari: what does that make 00:15:31 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.240.179.154] has joined #lisp 00:16:17 -!- md1 [n=user@213-151-238-36.icss.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:16:42 hefner: your suggestion worked 00:16:42 -!- felix^^_ [n=fgeller@dslb-088-074-222-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:16:54 fusss annotated #73450 with "the entire hunchentoot login thinggie" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73450#1 00:16:55 felix^^ [n=fgeller@dslb-088-074-222-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:07 I changed get_stats to struct net_io *get_stats(char *if_name, struct net_io *ret); 00:17:15 and changed the FFI according to that 00:17:16 voila 00:17:22 thanks for the help guys :) 00:17:54 kleppari: do you know what that code I posted creates? 00:18:06 minion: tell ahaas: this is pretty much everything. you will need to a few handlers for failed logins, logout and the like http://paste.lisp.org/display/73450#1 00:18:06 ahaas: lisp is the glue that binds the variables together 00:18:38 is that a yes or a no, minion? 00:19:52 where can i find info about with-html? 00:21:04 rvirding: which one? 00:21:26 there is one for cl-who and one i scribbled for LML, the markup used in my post above 00:21:33 oh, the one i just saw in the pastelisp ref 00:21:56 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-2-225.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 00:22:06 fusss annotated #73450 with "with-html" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73450#2 00:22:11 fusss: i think it is "memo for ahaas: ..." 00:22:26 stassats`: yeah, i msg it privately 00:22:28 I thought it was from some known package 00:23:58 rvirding: just something to control html generation globally. that way you can tell it to print your pages a certain way (and you can break it if you need to generate specific html, say, fragments to be stuffed in DIVs via ajax or when generating sitemaps and RSS xml files) 00:24:26 -!- bluelightningvid [n=camerong@12-219-181-193.client.mchsi.com] has left #lisp 00:24:44 Vinay [n=vmCodes@5ac802a9.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 00:25:04 fusss: I was reading the body as a declaration of how the html output should look 00:25:14 a structure describing output html 00:25:45 runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 00:26:25 ahaas: the idea that REST can be applied to complex web applications is somewhat misguided IMO. 00:26:35 html no longer has structure. you can start to think of the browser client area as a desktop screen and you can place things where you want with CSS positioning, and nest "widgets" with DIVs. no longer is it a document. 00:26:47 -!- Vinay [n=vmCodes@5ac802a9.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 00:28:12 good bye view-source, hello dom inspector :-) 00:29:01 fusss: not without javascript you can't... you are not talking about HTML at all ;) 00:29:06 just wondering as in logout there are explicit format calls, but none in index, so I wondered if the body of with-html just described the html or actually produced it 00:29:39 rvirding: that's a 2 year old thing that i wrote for someone 00:29:46 clear 00:30:06 so is (body (h2 ...) ...) data or a function call 00:30:20 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 00:31:38 it's a s-exp 00:32:23 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-060-233.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:25 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:32:38 rvirding: that's the data content 00:32:49 you can intersperse function calls in between 00:33:01 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.240.179.154] has quit [] 00:33:16 i forgot how i used LML, but with cl-who you can do (str (list-function-call)) and it would put the result there 00:33:54 lml looks like it's using functions/macros to produce the html, rather than describing the HTML ala cl-who 00:34:30 ajaxy stuff doesn't even have html. just an html body with a serious of carefully nested DIVs, later fleshed with appearance using CSS 00:34:46 i could be wrong, but all i see it that html-named function/macros seem to just output to *html-output*. 00:35:03 ala yaclml. 00:35:31 DIVs are not html? 00:35:43 ok, useful! 00:36:07 rvirding: if you are looking to generate HTML from lisp, i _really_ recommend YACLML 00:36:27 when I wrap stuff in (with-alien.. does it get automatically freed on exit? 00:36:44 no no, not really, just curious. And am not a cl person. :-) 00:37:17 drewc: I think I've heard you say that you don't care too much for REST before. I've never had a need to do anything too complicated, so I can't really judge. 00:37:18 ahaas, memo from fusss: this is pretty much everything. you will need to a few handlers for failed logins, logout and the like http://paste.lisp.org/display/73450#1 00:37:19 rvirding: erlang? :) 00:37:36 rvirding: ahh. well code-is-data-is-code .. it can be done either way. It all usually happens at compile time, so the distinction is merely syntactic 00:37:46 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 00:37:56 kleppari: too right, and lfe 00:38:25 drewc: yes but somewhere you have to know which it is 00:38:57 rvirding: quite true. for example i wouldn't like to use the pasted with-html as it conses strings at run time. 00:39:42 i prefer something that compiles down to PRINT statements myself... memory is tight on the VPS's i tend to deliver to. 00:39:51 -!- pyrolyte [n=pyrolyte@cpe-024-211-210-221.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:40:05 and the bloody GC tends to blow the heap :| 00:40:34 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 00:41:57 ok, you must not have much memory to play with 00:42:28 -!- runenes_ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:35 -!- dstatyvka [i=ejabberd@pepelaz.jabber.od.ua] has left #lisp 00:42:46 not enough... my clients are the type that would rather have the system restart weekly than spring for the extra memory. 00:43:25 they don't really notice actually. 00:43:45 drewc: oh! LispM style GC :-P 00:43:47 the system crashing, on the outside, simply looks like a really short session timeout to the user. 00:43:57 fusss: indeed, that's exactly it. 00:44:11 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-157.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:34 FWIW, the RoR guys used to report hundreds of restarts a day for their images .. in tonnes of memory .. so we're still winning :D 00:45:24 drewc: that really makes me shiver down to the bottom of my never-stop heart 00:45:25 tweaking the GC will help as well (still collecting data on usage). 00:45:47 system should *never* stop 00:45:49 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-061-109.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:46:12 rvirding: no doubt. FWIW i have other application that are not quite as memory hungry that have never gone down :) 00:46:36 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 00:46:38 the hacked up cliki that runs my website, for example, has been up for years now. 00:46:45 *rvirding* breathes a sigh of relief 00:46:52 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:46:54 hell... cliki itself has never gone down on it's current host 00:46:59 its 00:47:00 damnit 00:47:06 *drewc* slaps himself silly 00:47:08 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 00:47:33 i have to stop reading things on the greater interweb. my spelling, grammar and punctuation is suffering as a result. 00:48:02 *drewc* throws 'reddit.com 127.0.0.1' in the old /etc/hosts for a while. 00:48:13 -!- aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-55-18-82.acanac.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:48:43 rvirding: still not a lisper? I have been seeing around for a while 00:49:13 LFE is certainly a lisp-like. 00:49:15 fusss: have been a lisper since about '84, just with a different syntax :-) 00:49:22 or are you pulling off a dan_b? "I am not a lisper" 00:49:25 LFE *IS* lisp 00:49:41 holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:45 i'm gonna sound stupid for asking this, but what is LFE? 00:49:53 lisp flavoured erlang 00:50:10 erlang with lisp syntax and many lisp goodies 00:50:21 aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-55-18-82.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:39 fusss: slate's method dispatch algorithm is giving me a headache. 00:51:18 fusss: I think your code takes the same approach as some other Hunchentoot example I bookmarked a while back. 00:51:22 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:51:55 ahaas: the 'store it in a session' approach is pretty standard 00:52:06 ahaas: yeah, that's the hunchentoot example on session management. test.lisp. 00:52:11 ahaas: actually .. have you read my new ucw getting-started.txt? 00:52:18 fusss: or you could say lfe is a lisp for the erlang VM 00:52:34 -!- runenes__ [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:52:37 -!- inforichland [n=tim@96-42-29-58.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:52:39 rvirding: where you hacking on cl-muproc as well? 00:52:40 drewc: No I haven't. 00:52:42 depending to whom you are trying to sell it 00:52:44 ahaas: it might give you a few ideas .. it does it all from REST through session to call/cc 00:52:56 drewc: Ok, thanks, I'll check it out. 00:52:58 no, cl-muproc? 00:53:31 have written very little lisp for a long time 00:53:55 ahaas: http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/repos/ucw-core/manual/getting-started.txt 00:54:02 fusss: I liked someone else's suggestion, too, of adding the auth handler early in the dispatch table. 00:54:14 rvirding: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-muproc/ 00:54:27 I'm starting full-time on this tomorrow and I'm really looking forward to it. 00:54:33 ahaas: that's a good approach as well. 00:54:51 ahaas: it could get pretty irritating if you want to entice people to use your service without signup first. 00:55:37 fusss: oh no, I won't. I won't do anything that I myself deplore. (And I hate everything.) 00:55:46 -!- masm [n=user@a83-132-153-17.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:56:01 fusss: interesting, saw some ref to it but have never checked it out 00:56:04 I really never wanted to have login in the first place, but I think I need it. 00:56:04 drewc: you finished the manual? :D 00:56:07 http://www.alistapart.com/articles/signupforms/ 00:56:43 ls 00:56:46 oops 00:56:52 sykopomp: the first part anyway. 00:56:57 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 00:57:39 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:56 ahaas: UCW essentially does that.. the dispatcher that checks for valid sessions runs with a higher priority than most others 00:58:09 you can create a session that remembers user's actions and changes, and you customize the experience progressively. when the user invests enough in your web app, they will look around for a way to save their settings/work, that's when they reach for the big "Save" button and they will be prompted to sing in. Also don't require they click on a link in a confirmation email. They sign up and... 00:58:10 ...they're logged in without confirmation. 00:58:30 drewc: OK, that's sounding good. 00:59:12 ahaas: there are a few issues... you either have to require cookies, or send a session id/hash as part of the URL 00:59:37 fusss: My plan is that users can design levels for my game. They can do it all they want w/o signing up at all. But, after they finish making a level, they will be presented with an option to register with a simple name and password, so that they may create sets of levels (and a bunch of other stuff). 00:59:59 ahaas: sounds really cool, and sounds like the perfect job for UCW! 01:00:14 yep. putting the login form at the highest priority will put them off 01:00:42 drewc: How so? 01:01:06 drewc: I don't know much about UCW, but I initially chose TBNL because I wanted to learn from the ground up. 01:01:13 ahaas: because there is going to be a lot of intermediate state that you'll have to pass around, or store in a session. 01:01:17 drewc: I'm thinking of something along the same lines. A web interface for wizards where they can play around with game objects, and script them. 01:01:20 UCW eliminates that. 01:01:28 sykopomp: again, UCW :) 01:01:36 drewc: yeah :) 01:01:42 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has joined #lisp 01:01:47 sounds like a nice way to learn web programming, hm? 01:01:54 or should I really learn things the RESTful way first? 01:02:02 *sykopomp* knows how to write basic html! \o/ 01:02:08 drewc: Ok, I'll look into it. The other features I would like include the user getting their own URL which lists their levels and stats about them, users get some kind of points which show on the main page, etc. 01:02:19 ahaas: i 01:02:33 'd be happy to help you in any way i can 01:02:38 drewc: Thanks! 01:03:24 drewc: In all honesty, that's why I switched to tech.coop a while back. 01:03:27 ahaas: have a look at the getting-started. you can do anything that you do in TBNL in UCW.. and then use the advanced features only when you need them. 01:04:11 I knew that I'd be getting into an area where I might need assistance. 01:04:17 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:05:03 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2E9ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:06 ahaas: it's a shitty platform to develop for, full of bugs, quirks and the fact that it's not really suited for applications. I put my experience at your disposal. 01:05:12 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 01:05:29 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2E9ED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 01:05:33 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 01:05:40 the web that is .. UCW makes it tolerable 01:05:45 drewc: what call/cc implementation does ucw use? 01:05:52 fusss: arnesi 01:06:05 -!- holycow [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:05 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:05 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:05 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:05 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-105-217.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:05 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:05 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:05 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:05 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:05 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:05 -!- bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:05 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-131-217.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E59B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- Balooga_ [n=luke@65.111.175.229] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- df_aldur [n=df@aldur.torak.ewdc.nl.bowerham.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- mcxx [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633759.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- rcy [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 01:06:06 divinebovine [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:06 cool 01:06:21 can common lisp handle a 17770*480000 matrix? 01:06:35 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-105-217.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 bhyde [n=bhyde@c-66-30-202-56.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-131-217.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-71-197-210-170.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E59B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 rcy [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633759.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 ``Erik [i=erik@c-76-111-12-116.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 mcxx [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 Dazhbog [n=sampo@geek.fi] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 df_aldur [n=df@aldur.torak.ewdc.nl.bowerham.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 Balooga_ [n=luke@65.111.175.229] has joined #lisp 01:06:35 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:19 knapr: why not? 01:07:46 knapr: that depends on the implementation, and on your machine. Do you really have a dense matrix of 8 billion elements, though? 01:07:46 depends on the programmer, actually 01:08:07 sparse 01:08:17 vry sparse 01:08:20 lisp has lists for those 01:08:48 I think I may have missed something in that netsplit... 01:09:18 knapr: short answer is yes, yes it can. 01:09:28 knapr: use a good (C) library. CL doesn't provide complex data structures like sparse matrices. 01:10:04 pkhuong: damn you and your practical advice! :) 01:13:04 knapr: see if there is something you might find useful in Fateman's papers 01:15:25 pkhuong: but couldnt you write a matrix-datastructure in lisp? would it be slow? 01:15:57 knapr: sure you could. But it's a hard problem. There's no reason not to exploit PhD-decades of developments you don't even have to pay for. 01:17:15 true 01:17:38 -!- spec[afk] [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["Bye!"] 01:21:24 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0313.versanet.de] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 01:23:24 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 01:27:16 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:32:02 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:32:09 drewc: Does UCW play nice with the back button, multiple browser windows, and all the usual PITA web concerns? 01:32:14 how long is a PhD-decade in real time? 01:35:45 ashmawy2 [n=sdjh@217.54.234.238] has joined #lisp 01:35:55 Sorry dc'd ... how can i know how many arguments a function takes ... something like (number-of-args #'foo) for example ? 01:39:19 in portable CL, you can't 01:40:32 -!- ashmawy [n=sdjh@217.54.234.238] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:40:40 hefner, im using clisp 01:40:56 ahaas: Mecca http://www.owasp.org/index.php/Main_Page 01:40:58 ahaas: it was _made_ to play nice with those things .. in fact it's one of the only frameworks i know that lets you handle it at all :) 01:41:11 ahaas: seaside being the other one. 01:41:17 mhoelzl [n=tc@dslb-092-074-055-038.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:22 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 01:41:53 ahaas: i don't really get in to isolation, backtracking and window cloning in the getting-started, but it will be in the next session. 01:42:05 ashmawy2: clisp has a function called ext:arglist which appears to work, but I don't know what caveats there might be 01:42:18 ahaas: the short story is 'if you do things the ucw way, you should not have any issues' 01:42:33 drewc: i played with weblocks and i found its continuation-basedness a little concerning. it has links that lead to nowhere. there are no changes in the address bar. yet it still works. didn't like it. too desktopy. 01:42:45 ahaas: the longer story being 'the issues you have are surmountable for the most part' 01:42:58 -!- mhoelzl [n=tc@dslb-092-074-055-038.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 01:43:13 fusss: yet 5 minutes ago you were advocating ajax? 01:43:31 fusss: i don't like weblocks either, FWIW. 01:43:38 brb, laundry to do. 01:44:00 drewc: i write all my ajax calls, or use a thin wrapper i can understand. weblocks just went balls to the wall. GUIsh on me. 01:44:18 fusss: i agree 100%. what does that have to do with continuations? 01:44:37 hefner, Thnx alot man ... that solved it :) 01:44:42 was asking if ucw does the same 01:44:54 what .. uses ajax? no. 01:45:00 not by default 01:45:01 rather, hoping it doesn't 01:45:13 now we talking 01:45:14 you (and weblock) are conflating a user interface library with web framework. 01:45:25 ucw does not do this. It is X, not GTK 01:45:33 :-) 01:46:29 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 01:46:31 drewc: Is there anything that you think is still difficult under UCW? 01:46:32 that said, there are toolkits (ucw forms, ucw-presentations, lisp-on-lines, ucw-ajax) built on UCW that may or may not have the behavior you described. 01:46:50 ahaas: yes .. mixing it with contextl is difficult 01:47:09 ahaas: that said, the coming DYNAMIC-WIND will solve all that. 01:47:50 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:47:52 ahaas: also, depending on the application, memory usage can become an issue... 01:48:09 but that's easily remedied by following a few standard rules of thumb 01:48:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:22 laundry for real .. bbiab 01:50:33 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 01:50:54 herbert [n=xugp@nat/yahoo/x-1d6bc3824c8c8795] has joined #lisp 01:51:28 wow! http://voxel.dl.sourceforge.net/sourceforge/owasp/OWASPGuide2.0.1.pdf 01:51:49 the mother of all web app security handbooks 01:52:22 -!- herbert [n=xugp@nat/yahoo/x-1d6bc3824c8c8795] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:52:43 fusss: great! 01:53:14 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 01:53:50 herbert [n=xugp@nat/yahoo/x-0a074ef9629ffd6b] has joined #lisp 01:54:54 burkelibbey [n=burke@209-20-65-91.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:13 Hi, does anybody know what happened to ALU Wiki and ww.telent.net? I can't connect to both. 01:56:23 herbert: http://enlivend.livejournal.com/5712.html 01:57:12 ahaas: Ah, thanks. 01:57:33 What happened to ww.telent.net? 01:57:48 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@72-255-24-241.client.stsn.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:58:06 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@72-255-24-241.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:29 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 02:03:30 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:00 while trying to build sbcl for x64 windows, I get as far as the start of the warm init, where it then fails due to having a bad sbcl.exe built previously 02:05:49 -!- burkelibbey [n=burke@209-20-65-91.slicehost.net] has left #lisp 02:07:59 manic12: is x64 Itanium? 02:08:26 kzar pasted "Creating a tree problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73455 02:08:48 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-182-21-126.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:06 herbert: i will have the ALU wiki back up by next week. 02:09:10 Does anyone know where I have gone wrong there? It almost works but I think I'm assigning stuff into the hash table wrong somehow so it never gets past the first layer of children 02:09:31 manic12: hmm, nevermind that. Are you sure that SBCL has been ported to win64? 02:10:46 runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 02:10:46 who is developing sbcl? are they making money? 02:11:42 what is the highest profile project that has been written in Lisp? some Nasa stuff? its time for Lisp to show its power. Write a browser. Write a big fucking clustering machien learning datamining processing app. 02:12:34 too much coffee? 02:12:35 knapr: ok, do it 02:12:39 knapr: lots of people work on sbcl, some make or have made money on it. 02:12:49 maybe a lisp target for .net 02:13:06 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 02:13:15 fusss: nice link.. looks like a good summary from a quick glance. 02:13:25 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 02:13:31 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 02:14:02 *fusss* is working on a fully dynamically generated flash captcha 02:14:13 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:14:36 drewc: Thank you very much! 02:15:12 if only xul didn't have issues 02:15:26 luis, I am sure that SBCL has not been ported to win64, because if it has I would like to think the porter would share it with the community 02:20:38 *rvirding* says goodnight 02:20:40 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:21:01 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 02:21:10 khafra [n=ubuntu@173-145.106-97.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:21:53 Anybody know of a javascript app created using parenscript? I tried googling "written in parenscript," fruitlessly, and I'm wondering what the optimal case for its use is. 02:22:06 I gave up using it 02:22:35 kzar: Not worth it just for the "look and feel" of Lisp? 02:23:05 manic12: sorry, it seemed like you were expecting it to work. 02:23:23 well I would love to use it if it worked properly, but in my experience it doesn't. (I'm not really skilled enough to fix it) 02:24:25 the example do loop given doesn't work, displaying a local variable from inside the javascript was nearly impossible, displaying something like '' without the closing didn't seem possible 02:24:26 luis: Let me clarify then, I am trying to *make* it work. 02:25:53 khafra: I really liked it but kept hitting stuff you couldn't do with it basically and gave up 02:26:59 kzar: Ah, good to know. Well, perhaps I'll check back in a year from now and see if it's a complete Lisp implementation over javascript. 02:28:38 manic12: cool, good luck. 02:28:53 thanks 02:30:52 khafra: i have been using parenscript for years and written many an application using it. 02:31:34 kzar: what did you find you couldn't do in parenscript? 02:31:34 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:31:57 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@235.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 02:31:58 khafra: it is not a lisp implementation on javascript, but rather a lisp _syntax_. 02:32:07 have it generate the html of for example 02:32:22 (not ) 02:32:31 kzar: that's not the job of a javascript syntax. 02:32:49 use another html lib that does html 4 02:33:05 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:13 i didn't even know parenscript included an html macro :) 02:33:55 drewc: Ok another: you have a local variable, you are writing some javascript and you want to access it's contents 02:34:00 ok ... 02:34:22 drewc: (lisp variable-name) doesn't work, I couldn't see how to do it 02:34:36 use js:js* and backquote 02:35:07 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-111-32.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 02:35:13 next thing was I tried the do loop, pasted from the tutorial and it didn't work 02:35:22 drewc: Can I see? 02:35:46 khafra: unfortunatly not. howver, the ucw_ajax tree has a bunch of parenscript in it. 02:36:08 I mean there where a few things, I do like it though but just gave up 02:36:19 drewc: Intranet stuff? I mean, even if the sauce isn't available, it'd be informative to see the results 02:37:56 khafra: intranet indeed. http://common-lisp.net/project/ucw/repos/ucw_ajax/ has some examples that might help 02:38:31 kzar: did you report that as a bug? 02:38:48 Well I asked about it on the mailing list and noone answered 02:42:26 kzar: which do loop from which tutorial? 02:42:49 khafra: yeah, i can't find anything that i can show you :( 02:43:13 drewc: http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/parenscript-devel/2008-December/000444.html 02:43:22 from one of the pdf's I forget which 02:45:40 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 02:45:45 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:45:48 -!- ashmawy2 [n=sdjh@217.54.234.238] has quit [] 02:45:59 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 02:47:40 Fare: is there food now? i think the website changed 02:47:46 or are the external dinner plans still on 02:47:52 Fare: also, what time should i arrive to set up 02:48:39 kzar: the one in the introduction is the only DO i can find .. and it does work. The expansion is different than the one it gives, but the behavior is correct. What problem did you have exactly? 02:49:08 Well the problem I had: I pasted the do loop example and it didn't work 02:49:33 I really can't remember where I got it but the example itself is on that link. 02:51:27 sctb [n=sctb@adsl-71-135-98-155.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:02 does anyone have cl-who code for flash embedding? 02:52:27 *fusss* pulls own hair, File Not Found. reaches for sleeping dog. 02:53:59 ought I play with allegro or sbcl in order to explore CL? 02:54:03 kzar: well, that's not helping me diagnose and fix the issue at all. 02:54:14 cads: are you on win32? 02:54:24 linux 02:54:27 sbcl 02:54:34 sbcl 02:54:35 drewc: sorry I'm really tired and trying to get something working. 02:54:53 and slime/emacs? is there an alternative IDE to emacs? 02:55:15 kzar: no worries. i'd just prefer that people asking about parenscript here get positive responses. 02:55:29 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:55:37 cads: not _really_ .. but it's worth it. get clbuild to take care of the details. 02:55:58 cads: i was a vim user for a long time.. learning emacs + slime was most worth it. 02:56:25 cads: that said, there is CUSP for eclipse, Limp for vim, and ABLE, a tcl/tk gui. 02:56:27 I want to, but don't want to lose focus learning a new editor 02:56:45 cads: even if you just use slime for the REPL, it's worth it. 02:57:02 and you really only need to learn very little to get by. 02:57:15 it's a lispier experience. 02:57:19 cads: I'm still a vim guy, do all my main coding and editing in it, but for testing stuff real time, emacs + slime is very shweet, and as drewc just said, it's a very low learning curve 02:57:48 ok ok I'll do a slime/cl tutorial I guess 02:58:00 cads: just install clbuild 02:58:08 I guess if it's just a few shortcuts it'll be ok 02:58:44 minion: clbuild? 02:58:45 clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 02:58:54 I should poke at limp again, with a few tweaks it'd probably do the bare minimum I do in slime 02:59:05 one of those applications being slime + emacs :) 02:59:19 Draggor: i've heard it has come right along. 02:59:44 thanks for the pointers friends 02:59:53 cads: happy lisping 03:00:16 cads: do you know about Practical Common Lisp? 03:00:33 yeah 03:00:39 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:40 well you're sorted then :) 03:00:54 <3 that book 03:01:18 now I have a more technical question, about a claim I read in an article; Someone was blogging about how learning lisp has made his life as a c programmer miserable, how it had actually made him a worse programmer 03:01:39 now he hesitates and wishes he could do things at a higher abstraction, so his code output is lower :D 03:01:57 and someone commented that he should use lisp to create tools to help him code in c 03:02:07 it doesn't make him a worse programmer... it just makes him more miserable at work 03:02:26 cads: most people can handle working in more than one language :p 03:02:38 cads: he's just a useless wanker. 03:02:52 +1 what pkhuong said. 03:03:01 he should just let go of whatever ego he has about languages and just get the job done 03:03:06 (+1 ***) 03:03:14 it's just that he sounded angsty about not being able to do things at a high level, so probably just lazy 03:03:16 cooldude127 [n=user@r55h118.res.gatech.edu] has joined #lisp 03:03:52 Take anything, good or bad, about language experiences with a grain of salt. 03:04:00 anyways, what do you guys think, should there be a C metaprogramming DSL written in CL? 03:04:10 are there things of that nature? 03:04:30 cads: bitc is something like that 03:04:38 I know there are CL compilers which generate C 03:04:38 cads: there used to be such a package; the site went offline a couple years ago. 03:04:49 cads: but at that point, why are youi programming C? 03:05:05 I think about doing it from time to time, but usually just hack it with format and a specialised program. 03:05:37 yeah.. when code generation would actually help, i've hacked that in CL as well. 03:06:01 drewc, is bitc that new dependantly types language that they're writing for the coyotos kernel? 03:06:23 or really ugly stuff with CL-generated awk (: 03:06:24 cads: that's the one. 03:06:40 it looks like lisp 03:06:53 pkhuong: i must admit i've reached for CL to solve some nasty ksh scripting :) 03:06:55 cads: for now. 03:07:09 cads: there's also http://www.yuasa.kuis.kyoto-u.ac.jp/~hiraisi/sc/index-e.html 03:07:26 dunno how good it is.. 03:07:40 pkhuong: it sounds like you know about bitc.. is there a working implementation for public use? 03:08:06 "The SC language is a C language with S-expression-based (Scheme-like) syntax, implemented in Common Lisp." 03:08:28 felideon, that's nice if only to not have to look at the damn semicolons 03:08:44 felideon: D: .... 03:08:46 cads: google points to . 03:08:51 cads: If i were programming in C for a living, i don't think i'd often reach for CL .. emacs can solve some of the problems, and i can't imagine the other programmers i would be working with would enjoy seeing the generated C code that lisp-like constructs would produce :) 03:10:10 I don't know that i'd want to simply encode lisp constructs in c, but rather mold a code generation framework for creating canonical C boilerplate 03:10:19 heh 03:10:20 cads: then again .. something like SC + lisp macros for boilerplate could work 03:10:28 why C, whyyyy 03:10:31 right, exactly. 03:10:48 cads: in that case, you could get very far just using emacs 03:11:01 sykopomp: because it's sometimes exactly as simple as you need your tool to be. 03:11:13 sykopomp: C is the language of unix, sometimes you just have to.. As CL is often 'stuck in it's own box', if you will... :/ 03:11:19 because C's just unavoidable at times 03:11:29 I like C quite a bit... when doing things that C is good at. 03:11:34 yeah, what these guys say 03:11:47 fusss: Still need cl-who for flash embed? 03:11:47 it's not a terrible language 03:11:50 drewc: such as..? 03:11:57 ahaas: desperately 03:12:01 one sec 03:12:22 felideon: i hoped nobody would call me on that :P 03:12:29 (I only ask because I *think* i want to learn C some day) 03:12:31 I understand C being unavoidable. It's just almost like scratching a blackboard when hearing about it. 03:12:34 drewc: hehe 03:13:05 If you need exact control over what you're doing, C is it, short of dropping down to assembly 03:13:35 C is a low level language, I got chewed out once for making that claim 03:13:42 ahaas pasted "cl-who for Flash embed" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73459 03:14:12 felideon: well, for example, writing a GC in C is fairly nice. 03:14:13 dihymo: C books and tutorials I've come across seem to almost unilaterally call it a HLL 03:14:29 s/unilaterally/uniformly/ 03:14:37 Draggor: I can sometimes better control what code will be generated in CL than in C. 03:15:23 fusss: That's what I use. The outer div isn't required of course, and it's hardcoded for version 9, but number can be changed. 03:15:40 ahaas: thank you for that, too 03:15:46 ahaas: i bet i'll use it one day :) 03:15:59 your welcome 03:16:06 ahaas: holly smoke! that's huge 03:16:22 i wasn't even close to getting it to work, heh 03:16:44 You know, you used to have to include an Object tag and an Embed tag, but I'm not sure if that's absolutely required on modern browsers these days. 03:17:03 So, everything is duplicated. Also, not all of those options are required, but that's what I use. 03:17:08 ahaas: IE 6 is still modern these days ;) 03:18:04 *drewc* has clients on ie 5 still. 03:18:09 pkhuong: Take back those words :P 03:18:40 from what i understand, when c came out it was high level 03:18:45 there's still people who use win 3.1 in this world 03:18:57 divinebovine: assembly is high level compared to... punch cards? 03:19:05 divinebovine: HLL compared to macro assembler 03:19:06 lol! 03:19:28 punchcards ... heh 03:19:33 and C was considered to be used as portable assembler by it's authors 03:19:35 you might not be that far off actually 03:19:57 is machine language HLL for binary? 03:20:23 machine language is binary. 03:20:38 drewc: one of the developers of BitC has expressed intent to actually do his m-expressions (not in those words) 03:20:58 kpreid: I believe that's been the plan all along. 03:21:06 drewc: and not to ever do macros. so if you're looking for a lisp, ...probably don't look there. 03:21:29 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-182-21-126.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:21:44 hmm i thought it was a level above it... i guess that would be assembly 03:24:06