00:00:11 :) 00:00:11 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.166.9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:00:11 -!- vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 00:00:13 lisp is getting me quite excited tbh :) 00:00:18 if you are wanting to "inject code" into a running lisp world, i think you will find that a feature of lisp 00:01:14 for instance, you can change the definition of a variable, function or class while lisp is running 00:02:09 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:02:25 and by "hooking a dll" i suppose you mean calling dll functions or giving it a function for callback, most implementations do that 00:02:27 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:02:37 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:02:43 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:07 Which databases do you guys use for your websites? 00:03:53 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 00:04:10 i used mysql for my only production database but i enjoyed experimenting with allegrocache 00:04:11 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:04:30 wlr_ [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:13 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:26 kzar: MySql 00:05:40 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:05:43 kzar: I use Oracle, Berkeley DB, SQLite and rucksack 00:05:47 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:06:20 kzar: what OS are you runniong? 00:06:24 running 00:06:54 -!- wlr_ [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:06:54 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:07:01 I'm using Debian, I was trying couchdb and I really like it but I have been having a couple of problems. Don't really want to go back to MySQL or whatever though 00:07:17 sbcl? 00:07:30 yea 00:07:35 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:03 there needs to be an persistent clos system for sbcl if not already 00:08:13 kzar: there is an intresting alternative 00:08:29 pgsql 00:08:38 manic12, there are many of them 00:08:56 commercial grade? 00:09:00 you can also build your own 00:09:09 depends what you call "commercial grade" 00:09:19 postgres SQL is commecial grade- 00:09:21 i love that answer 00:09:40 certainly, many such systems support companies doing money transactions. 00:09:45 I was hoping to find somthing un-realtional like couchdb 00:10:00 loose the s 00:10:03 postgre 00:10:11 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-10-71.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:10:26 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Operation timed out] 00:11:59 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:12:02 loose PostGreSQL 00:12:10 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:12:15 ? 00:12:27 "PostgreSQL" 00:12:43 Old name is "Postgres". 00:13:24 Apart from Oracle it is the best relational DB out there 00:13:32 educate me, is PostgreSQL OO even though SQL? 00:13:36 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:13:43 (guess not?) 00:13:59 yes 00:14:26 check out the latest version 00:15:49 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@u16-121.dsl.vianetworks.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:15:51 -!- avdi [n=avdi@216.230.102.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:16:11 archangelpetro: code injection and DLL hooking? you can only do that in assembly; the fact that C and C++ let you do that does not reflect well on them as high level languages 00:16:45 user-space fuckups like that can only happen on the Microsoft platform, it's nothing to be proud of 00:16:51 somebody explain to me what those are. 00:17:10 LD_PRELOAD? ;) 00:17:37 manic12: your allegedly user-space application can sneak into kernel mode code and interfere with other applications without their consent 00:17:40 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:40 or for that matter your approval 00:18:02 wow 00:18:11 huh? 00:18:17 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:18:32 repnop: try to do that to another process you don't have permissions for 00:18:57 fusss: same on windows if you aren't an admin account 00:19:16 0-day is not an application programming technique; it gets fixed and your one trick is done 00:19:23 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 00:19:31 I heard that almost everybody uses the admin account as their normal user session 00:19:46 but in linux if you're admin or parent of process you should be able to ptrace it then mmap its memory via /proc/pid/mem 00:19:53 if you so choose 00:20:06 or just peek/poke data 00:20:44 repnop: and any process can tell if it's being ptraced or not 00:21:22 bpt_ [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:21:24 on win32 the rogue applications patches the system. on unix, the rogue application attachs to a running process that it has permissions for. big difference. 00:22:01 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:22:03 can you imagine being able to run "strace" on *every* running process? win32 code can do that. 00:22:25 you must like running as an admin account all the time in windows 00:23:04 repnop: me and every other bot on the planet 00:23:56 legit applications will ask for your consent and they depend on these hacks to get things done 00:24:18 blitz_ [n=julian@u16-121.dsl.vianetworks.de] has joined #lisp 00:24:24 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:24:48 win32 users are happy with it, and as a result we have app developers demanding the right to hook DLLs and inject code into running processes. usually that's the only way to extend stock MS software, like IE, Outlook and office. but that doesn't make it cool. 00:24:49 rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:25:08 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:25:11 *rlpowell* doesn't use the REPL nearly enough. 00:25:45 REPL is for results, and for debugger restarts ;-) 00:26:22 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:26:34 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5ac802e1.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 00:26:39 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5ac802e1.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 00:26:45 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-015-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:30:23 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:30:34 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:05 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-006-157.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:52 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:33:53 fusss: are you german? 00:34:07 not yet. why? 00:34:36 madnificent: Ok. not only germans hack the web in Lisp <-: 00:34:36 recent yank :-) 00:35:25 recent? 00:35:40 immigrated there not too long ago 00:35:57 any reason in particular? 00:36:25 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk63.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:37:31 dunno, the fact that my native homeland is no longer a functioning sovereign entity? poorest country on earth and has little to ajax-developers? 00:37:39 -!- drwhen [n=d@73-114-74-65.gci.net] has quit ["\(^^) LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL! "\(^^)""] 00:37:42 little to no :-P 00:37:55 z0d: \o/ 00:38:01 fusss: which country is that? 00:38:12 for the Nth time, Somalia :-D 00:38:18 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:39:01 -!- dysinger_ [n=tim@c-71-59-151-93.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:41:49 fusss: it's a miracle it has programmers at all. And a lisp programmer at that! 00:42:12 pjb: haha 00:42:56 since the country broke down in 1991, a few of us have been known to do unusual things 00:43:11 today LW asked for the feedback i promised them for evaluating the pro version of the LW; in a nutshell, i told them to embrace asdf-install and create an officially sanctioned repo that has cliki packages proven to work with LW. sounds good right? 00:43:48 asdf-install is obsoleted by clbuild 00:43:56 though they are not (yet?) equivalent 00:44:16 and clbuild is still a baby 00:44:43 i also told them the difference "addons" make to successful software; mozilla, adobe developer tools, and many more. having "addons" as a menu option and downloading 3rd party apps and having them configure and build with one click is a must have, imo. 00:44:51 asdf -> mudballs \o/ 00:45:16 z0d: don't care about the final tool they use. as long as there is a live counterpart to Edi's StarterPack 00:46:02 fusss: installer based on mudballs? It could be a way of ensuring the user always has the latest version. (just an idea) 00:46:23 qen [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 00:46:48 madnificent: i'm not affiliated with them. i just told them my honest opinion because they let me try the whole shebang without my asking 00:46:53 -!- qen is now known as Guest96325 00:47:17 fusss: those are the best 00:47:57 I thought Mudballs was the replacement for asdf-install 00:48:08 -!- Guest96325 is now known as kenp 00:48:09 no wait, XCVB 00:48:11 i also told them to embrace slime 100%, even for the trial version. right now the Bill Clementson hack stopped working and you can't dump an image on the personal version to use slime. 00:48:35 chumsley [n=user@dsl-207-112-41-15.tor.primus.ca] has joined #lisp 00:48:38 -!- kenp is now known as Guest93203 00:49:31 tic: Fare and madnificent had a conversation about them about 2 hours ago 00:50:09 ~ seems to be bound to `slime-sync-package-and-default-directory' instead of `insert-self' in the latest CVS version of slime. 00:50:26 Is slime-devel the appropriate place to mention that? 00:50:28 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-101-032.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:51:14 tic: apparantly fare is a nice programmer, who will try to get mudballs to use XCVB when XCVB is more finished. He has already had contact with the mudballs-guys :) 00:51:22 Alternatively, am I the only person who thinks that's probably a mistake? 00:51:28 chumsley: How keybindings are initialized was refactored yesterday 00:51:51 I think ~ still works in the REPL, I don't have Slime running atm, though. 00:51:51 Yes, the new binding seems to have introduced in 1.10 of slime-repl.el. 00:51:57 DOjao [n=Sparr@616950.ds.nac.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:03 Hi 00:52:10 But yes, slime-devl is exactly the right place. 00:52:20 I am pretty new to programming and want learn new language 00:52:23 It's available via gmane, so you don't even have to subscribe explicitly. 00:52:27 I was unclear: It seems that ~ is now bound strangely in lisp code buffers, not repl buffers. 00:52:28 currently decide between lisp and haskell 00:52:33 i plan to use logic for business applications 00:52:44 tic: also, I think asdf -> xcvb, and mudballs -> asdf-install sounds more logical (yet, I may be wrong) 00:52:46 chumsley: Yes, that's probably an omission. 00:52:48 is there advantage lisp to haskell for such? (math stuff mostly) 00:52:51 madnificent: so we'll have 2 systems for system definition? 00:52:53 trittweil: Thanks very much! 00:53:22 z0d: There are many. 00:53:40 HELLO? 00:53:49 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:53:55 trittweil: I know. Ok, nevermind. I didn't know asdf -> xcvb, and mudballs -> asdf-install 00:53:57 z0d: I wouldn't be all too surprised when it shows that a well-abstracted version of XCVB becomes the defacto standard for libraries. Yet I think the current mudballs-syntax will be supported for the years to come 00:54:11 is chat come through? 00:54:20 DOjao: Yes, it did. 00:54:25 ok sorry 00:54:39 any advices? 00:54:46 DOjao: What business applications do you have in mind? 00:55:04 trittweil: analysis of large csv data of temperatures 00:55:13 just, don't take my word on any of this, I should read up on both of the systems and probably talk to the maintainers in order to see how they see their babies evolving 00:55:16 trittweil: curve fiting aplication 00:55:45 trittweil: used to build distribution for future use 00:55:50 predection? (sp) 00:56:01 -!- Guest93203 is now known as ken_p 00:56:16 curve fitting for prediction? i hope that works better in weather than it does in finance. 00:57:18 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.58] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:57:34 repnop: it works in finance too, waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaay down 00:59:09 DOjao: Both Common Lisp, and Haskell do have steep learning curves, but Haskell's one is even steeper. Once you mastered the language to a sufficient degree, you can be enormously productive. 00:59:47 DOjao: Common Lisp is more intuitive; Haskell has got more academic traction. 01:00:16 which better for business application? 01:00:21 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:00:23 for example add new features easily 01:00:31 and also speed is important 01:00:36 sorry for noob question last 01:00:42 DOjao: in lisp you can get the features of haskell and those of OO etc, lisp will be better for most things 01:01:04 DOjao: yet, lazy evaluation is NOT built into the lisp standard (but it is fairly easy to build something like that). 01:01:11 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@u16-121.dsl.vianetworks.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:01:30 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-237.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:01:41 cool lisp has class 01:01:53 -!- chumsley [n=user@dsl-207-112-41-15.tor.primus.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:01:54 i read earlier haskell has class too 01:01:55 blitz_ [n=julian@u16-121.dsl.vianetworks.de] has joined #lisp 01:01:57 "type class" 01:02:11 DOjao: and lisp can certainly be made faster (with well-written-code. it may be faster in any case, but I know of no benchmarks), yet haskell will make it easier for you to use multiple cpu's 01:02:23 just learn it! :D 01:02:26 DOjao: If your decision will be based on the amount of buzzwords you can collect while asking random dudes on irc, uhm well 01:02:55 DOjao: allso, lisp is dynamic, so you can change the code in a running process (very handy when you get used to it) 01:03:05 madnificent: you see http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/ ? 01:03:06 DOjao: just use lisp, I'd say (but that is on #lisp :P) 01:03:12 madnificent: it show haskell faster 01:03:24 madnificent: ok 01:03:25 DOjao: #lisp will probably recommend Lisp, while #haskell will recommend Haskell. 01:03:25 read the source code and decide which style you'd rather do 01:03:56 DOjao: it depends on how the code has been written (in lisp) 01:04:14 code available 01:04:21 ok thank for feedback for stupid question 01:04:27 i read documentation and see perf of app 01:04:32 is there anything you *can't* do in common lisp. I mean, when you need to modify interpreters code? 01:04:39 ciao 01:04:42 -!- DOjao [n=Sparr@616950.ds.nac.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:05:01 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-10-71.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [] 01:05:20 decafbad: Write a programs which reliably determines if a given program halts. 01:05:33 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:05:37 trittweil: nice one!!! 01:05:44 decafbad: The stuff you can do with macros is fairly limited. 01:05:50 -!- cliffr [n=canuck11@66.183.147.55] has quit [] 01:06:06 decafbad: if you do find a solution for that, feel free to mail me! it is proven not to be possible 01:06:47 well 01:06:51 trittweil: what? Maybe a limited useage, but there is _no_ way of doing the things you do with them, without them 01:06:56 if any given program will halt 01:07:12 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.108] has joined #lisp 01:07:41 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 01:09:01 madnificent: Like? 01:09:28 clhs with-open-file 01:09:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_open.htm 01:09:30 to name one 01:09:43 loop, to name another 01:10:11 <_3b> with-open-file is easy to write, just have to wrap the code in a lambda by hand 01:10:12 anything that changes the scope of the code that is ran 01:10:30 _3b: but wrapping it by hand, is not the same thing ;) 01:10:38 it wouldn't be with-open-file anymore 01:10:56 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-157.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:11:16 If the language supports lazy evaluation you don't need to do the wrapping yourself 01:11:17 on lisp actually had a rather nice writeup as to when to use macros 01:11:41 trittweil: you need to be able to _modify_ the code for things like loop... 01:11:42 madnificent: in many languages, wrapping in a lambda involves typing less than 5 characters. 01:12:14 pkhuong: and... it still isn't with-open-file :) 01:12:18 madnificent: Macros do you not modify any code. In fact, it's explicitly prohibited by the standard. 01:12:25 madnificent: it achieves the same goal. 01:12:54 pkhuong: we are only turing complete, we will not solve unsolvable problems, just make them understandable -_- 01:12:57 madnificent: See you drunk the Lisp cool aid. Give you an year, or two, and you'll see them in the right light. 01:13:30 slyrus: changing the pane background color is something that should be supported, but isn't 01:13:43 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 01:14:15 -!- _8david` [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:14:52 trittweil: sweetening things requires to use macros now or than. I want to be able to write (defpage "path" (some page contents)) and it must do whatever it takes to create that page. Now for that to make sense to the interpreter, the supplied 'list' which must be code with respect to the user of defpage, has to be executed with a wrapper surrounding it. 01:14:57 not possible without macros 01:15:03 Dammit. I can't seem to reload from the REPL a file that uses CLSQL's square bracket syntax. 01:15:07 -!- antoni [n=antoni@238.pool85-53-19.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:15:25 'but you can somehow make something do the same', turing is proud that you see that, I don't care about it. 01:15:58 madnificent: So your concern is mostly syntactic. 01:16:05 madnificent: no one here invoked the turing tarpit. We're talking about achieving goals which usually includes usability in the real world. 01:16:13 Why did you take offence on my saying that macros are mostly syntactic abstractions? 01:16:19 trittweil: and whilst they don't explicitly modify the code itself, they return a new list to be executed, which is why you use them :) 01:16:21 rlpowell: do you have the magic incantation at the top and bottom of that file? 01:16:31 rlpowell: iirc, that syntax sugar has to be enabled before use. see if you can enable it then reload. 01:16:48 pkhuong: Yep. 01:16:50 pkhuong: and the real world requires me to understand my application, which is why I need macros 01:17:07 rlpowell: You can use swank:*readtable-alist* 01:17:20 rlpowell: Or even better make clsql use my http://common-lisp.net/~trittweiler/darcs/editor-hints/named-readtables/ 01:17:25 fusss: Yeah, I'm trying, but I don't actually understand how the magic call works. The magic call being: #.(clsql:enable-sql-reader-syntax) 01:17:28 inforichland [n=tim@68-118-159-71.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:17:31 trittweil: I don't use emacs. 01:17:34 madnificent: no, that's why you need usable syntax. The end is what is important; macros are a tool, and you haven't shown how, e.g., with-open-file's utility can't be reproduced with a lambda. 01:17:39 jaywong [n=jay@c-67-188-39-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:48 trittweil: I too offense in the saying that their useage is limited 01:18:12 pkhuong: write me loop without a macro 01:18:13 rlpowell: the function is called at read-time to enable the reader macros (that's what #. does). 01:18:26 pkhuong: the tool is there to let me write abstractions... that is why I need them... 01:18:35 sorry i'm a a total newbie at lisp. how do i import libraries into lisp under windows? 01:18:39 pkhuong: OK. That's right at the top of the file. 01:18:41 madnificent: Their usage _is_ limited. 01:18:48 It doesn't make them useless 01:18:57 trittweil: and that was what I said! 01:19:10 madnificent: replicating loop isn't a goal, and you're no scotman. Being able to iterate over lists or sequences might be. 01:19:19 somebody on cll is asking about a video library to "write frame by frame". hope he finds ffmpeg and cffi's the hell out of it. 01:19:23 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:19:42 fusss: cll? 01:19:52 do i just copy the entire library directory into the lib directory? 01:19:53 pkhuong: with that form of abstraction, I think it will be hard to do it without them 01:19:58 rlpowell: news://comp.lang.lisp 01:20:39 pkhuong: I believe the interface is just as important as the internals (you may disagree) and in that case macros let me write exactly that what I want, transform that to some executable code and let me use it 01:20:43 Ah. 01:20:48 fuss: itym news:comp.lang.lisp 01:21:26 madnificent: sure, having a nicely usable interface is important. Having an interface just like that of loop is just useless (and doubly so, some might argue). 01:21:49 -!- runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:22:20 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:56 pkhuong: if you can not come to the exact same syntax without macros, then I argue that you have lost some form of expressiveness. That may be important in some cases (like for people that do not want (lamba ()) to be written all over their nicely built abstractions (like me) 01:23:07 but you are not by far forced to use it, as no one else is. 01:23:14 if anyone is interested in ffi bindings for CL i have the base stubs to build on 01:24:16 similarly, macros won't let me write loops like I do in C therefore macros are less expressive than C. It seems your issue is mainly with the fact that anonymous functions are syntactically expensive in CL. 01:24:50 pkhuong: That's not fair. LOOP _is_ a better example for the use of macros than with-open-file. 01:24:52 rlpowell: when you say "reload from the repl", what exactly are you typing? 01:24:57 in the same vein as fusss's announcement, I have preliminary bindings from SBCL to PAPI; porting to CFFI shouldn't be too bad. 01:24:57 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.253.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:58 pkhuong: pkhuong you can make that work in lisp, I think... just parse the list and drop what you don't care about (if ; is a valid symbol) 01:24:59 Which is what f-underscore is for. 01:25:09 (anonymouse functions) 01:25:41 trittweil: sure, but not everyone thinks LOOP should reproduce ;) 01:25:47 pkhuong: allso (for (i 0) (incf i) (< i 10) (forms be here)) is something that comes close and that is easy to implement with macros 01:26:13 kpreid: I've tried a few things; that time, (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op 'furlmail) 01:26:18 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:21 madnificent: It's called DO in Common Lisp. 01:26:30 Previously, (load "src/init-session.lisp"),which is the actual changed file. 01:26:40 trittweil: yes, but writing it yourself is what this was about :) 01:26:42 madnificent: And it's syntactically a nightmare 01:26:50 trittweil: as is c :P 01:27:28 rlpowell: Can you show the file with the problem? 01:28:06 *rlpowell* thinks he can probably get away with that without pissing off work too much. :) 01:28:11 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:28:24 pkhuong: when you refuse to accept that you are losing expressiveness, you are either extremely dumb, or overly ignorant (I prefer to choose the second for the sake of the argument). If you do accept the fact that there is some abstraction that you loose, then I have proven my point. Say you do not agree that you are losing exrpessiveness, then you should drink more coffee 01:30:00 kpreid: Be gentle WRT style; this has been hacked out *very* quickly. 01:30:04 (by my standards) 01:30:06 -!- loz [n=loz@105.b.002.gsf.iprimus.net.au] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:30:14 *_3b* likes the forth/cola style ability to just hook into the compiler directly as a replacement for macros 01:30:16 madnificent: I simply maintain that you're confusing the ends with the means that are commonly used to attain them here. 01:30:44 fusss pasted "stubs for ffmpeg/libavformt." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73222 01:31:10 madnificent: there is a paper about expressiveness by felleisen 01:31:37 pkhuong: when I say you *need* macros to define some way to speak about something, how am I not saying that macros are the means to create that abstraction? 01:31:38 I can't recall if they argue that macros enhance expressiveness of a language or not 01:31:40 rlpowell pasted "The changed file" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73223 01:31:51 trittweil: they do 01:31:56 :P 01:32:26 <_3b> madnificent: are you saying 'you need them' as in that is all that is available in CL, or that no other options are possible? 01:32:59 rlpowell: Okay, and the error you get is? 01:33:08 _3b: please elaborate on 'no other options are possible' 01:33:15 many things like: ; undefined variable: [= 01:33:24 It barfs on every [ or ] AFAICT 01:33:35 dbalcer [n=dbalcer@host121-155-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 01:33:54 trittweil: IIRC, they mostly establish the difference between things that are macro-expressible and those that aren't, and argue that macro-expressible features don't really contribute to the expressiveness of a language as we think of it. 01:34:06 rlpowell: Try deleting the fasl for that lisp file. 01:34:27 <_3b> madnificent: other methods of achieving the same goals, but which aren't present in CL (like the ability to toggle compilation on and off at will in forth) 01:34:41 And doing which kind of loading? 01:34:55 rlpowell: either. 01:34:58 Both fail. 01:35:25 _3b: clearly there will be other means of doing the same thing. Yet not many popular languages have anything that comes close 01:35:28 or, for something more pedestrian, higher-order functions. 01:36:00 <_3b> madnificent: well, i don't think anoyone here is arguing in favor of 'popular' languages :) 01:36:50 pkhuong: you loose the ability to abstract the syntax you want. You need to be able to read the given expression as data, instead of code, in order to simulate what a macro does 01:37:38 _3b: I know only macros that can do it, but other systems that do the same could be invented. The fact that macros use lisp-code to generate lisp-code does make them handy 01:37:39 madnificent: but I don't care about emulating macros; I just want a nice interface. 01:38:13 rlpowell: assuming clsql isn't broken, I am baffled. 01:38:17 pkhuong: and in your so called 'nice' interface you have lost exrpessiveness. That may be key to understanding your application. 01:38:26 <_3b> madnificent: also, if you haven't read about teh vpri cola stuff, you might find it interesting, just type in a parser, then start using the language it defines, define new languages and swap between them at will 01:38:33 kpreid: \o/ 01:38:38 madnificent: Macro based solution can easily fail for reasons of inefficiency or debuggability. For that you need to hook into a compiler directly. 01:38:41 (I always like it when my failures aren't simple) 01:38:54 rlpowell: are you sure the file you are reloading is in fact the one from which the runtime error arises? 01:39:07 trittweil: redundant 01:39:08 madnificent: Interesting assertion. 01:39:11 i.e. you could be invoking previously misread code that isn't from that file 01:39:12 ; file: /home/rpowell/src/furlmail/src/init-session.lisp 01:39:12 ; in: DEFUN MAKE-FURL-USER 01:39:14 -- Yes. 01:39:20 (later: ; undefined variable: ID] 01:39:56 I wouldn't be bothering with any of this except that my cl-prevalence data is taking ages to load, so restarting's a bitch. 01:40:02 _3b: I have written parsers in the past, but I haven't used cola :) perhaps I should read up on it 01:40:47 pkhuong: you noticing that statement only now, is rather scary 01:40:52 rlpowell: Consider dumping a core containing that data 01:40:59 cliffr [n=canuck11@66.183.147.55] has joined #lisp 01:41:32 -!- trittweil [n=rittweil@rayhalle1.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:41:36 I didn't know that was possible with SBCL. 01:41:39 madnificent: no, I'm simply pointing out that it is again on that assertion, which you seem to take for granted, that I take issue. 01:42:04 pkhuong: you are losing a way of talking about something right? 01:42:21 <_3b> madnificent: actually, i guess 'write a grammar' would be better description than 'write a parser', which implies a bit more work :) 01:42:34 jli [n=jli@adsl-074-229-201-181.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:07 how do I make a new list out of the first 5 elements of a list? 01:43:37 or first n elements 01:43:40 _3b: that would be something that would actually make it useable :) But I get the idea. It is to some extent what you do with a macro. You create some form of grammer (albeit somewhat limited to sexps) 01:43:51 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:44:26 <_3b> madnificent: sort of an extreme version of reader macros, with built in support for building parsers 01:44:27 eliasm [n=eliasm@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:44:30 oh, subseq, yay. 01:44:32 #/join #startups 01:44:45 -!- eliasm [n=eliasm@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 01:46:19 <_3b> hmm, looks like vpri has a few more papers out since last time i looked... have to do some reading at some point :) 01:49:07 runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 01:52:35 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 01:54:53 <_3b> madnificent: http://vpri.org/html/work/ifnct.htm in particular i think the "STEPS Towards the Reinvention of Programming" had a good overview 01:58:18 _3b: me being in my exams, it being 2h55m (night), that being the link, course being what I need to read before bedtime (whis I've passed). Results in me not looking at that at it when me needs to get course done. 01:58:52 * Results in me * which I've passed 01:59:08 <_3b> madnificent: yeah, studying is probably higher priority :) 02:00:35 but I will probably ask some day, if I loose the link. I am convinced that macros allow you to write any sexps dsl you want, implying that I think that a derivative of what you've pointed me to could be created in lisp. Albeit less flexible (yes, that is losing some way to express things) 02:00:50 madnificent: it doesn't bother me at all to lose something when there are as good or better ways to achieve my goals. If your goal is to emulate macros, then go hard. I don't think that's interesting or useful. 02:01:40 pkhuong: I have your ways, augmented with . I really wonder if you ever grasped macros 02:01:50 I thought you were using lisp for quite some time 02:02:21 <_3b> madnificent: i think some of the disagreement is just from differing perspective, not differing understanding :) 02:02:31 Cronos [n=a@5ac6c90c.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 02:04:55 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:56 madnificent: Take a George Foreman grill. No added value for me, so I don't care that I don't have one. Accumulating features isn't useful in itself. 02:05:33 <_3b> for example when you say 'write any sexps DSL you want' that isn't the goal...the goal is to _use_ any sexps dsl you want, being able to write one in a macro is just a means 02:06:26 <_3b> (but shouldn't you be studying anyway?) 02:06:26 _3b: using sexps definitely isn't a goal for me. 02:06:27 _3b: although you are right (as the point of the discussion has been pinpointed, and the view of pkhuong has been expressed thoroughly), I simply can not grasp the fact that anyone would make a statement like that. Don't get me wrong pkhuong you are clearly free to do to so, it simply doesn't fit into my brain. (This is the one of the two features I miss in other languages, and the only one I miss in most languages I use). 02:06:48 <_3b> pkhuong: yeah, i just left it in since that was tangential to my point 02:06:57 -!- cliffr [n=canuck11@66.183.147.55] has quit [] 02:07:23 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.240.104] has joined #lisp 02:07:30 _3b: yes, but I *need* them to *use* any sexps DSL I want (granted, I'm talking lisp-only here) 02:08:22 <_3b> madnificent: i'd argue you don't 'need' them, they just happen to be what is available 02:09:33 _3b: but I don't want to argue about that, because I agree with you. It is the only thing that is available in the lisp standard for it (afaik). It would be a lot of work to create something that integrates that nicely though (or do you see something I don't see) 02:10:02 <_3b> integrates into CL, or integrates into any langauge? 02:10:46 _3b: I only talk about CL here, it would indeed be a fairly bad match for many many other languages (say non-sexps-pased ones) 02:11:37 <_3b> no i mean other concepts in other languages, as opposed to only concepts that fit well into CL 02:12:08 <_3b> or things that would make it not CL 02:12:46 I've been following for 30 minutes and I'm still not sure what you all are talking about. 02:12:59 <_3b> jli: don't worry, we probably aren't either :) 02:13:10 dsfdsafds__ [n=dsafsdaf@unaffiliated/dsfdsafds] has joined #lisp 02:13:39 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:54 jli: the assertion that macros are irreplaceable because they're the best way to ... emulate macros. 02:14:10 <_3b> madnificent: in the general case, i'd argue forth metaprogramming integrates just as well into forth, and a similar method of being able to toggle evaluation at will could be useful in lisp 02:14:49 jli: depending on the person that is discussing, because there are discrepancies: do macros allow you to create abstractions that aren't possible without them. (and the following is _3b only, I think) macros are not the only way in which this could be done (references to other languages, he has) 02:14:53 <_3b> madnificent: and the vpri stuff is much more powerful than macros, and integrates just as well (to the extent you can count a mostly research language/system at least :) 02:16:36 aren't macros just a means for syntactic abstraction? 02:17:08 _3b: I'm not claiming there isn't a better way to do it. I like macros because the sexps are everywhere, which makes it end up in a rather consistent way of programming (with braces being the only delimiters between statements). I doubt I'd really want to see something else in lisp, but if you can give an example of what could be nicer in lisp then I'm interested to see it 02:17:28 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:17:59 <_3b> madnificent: no specifics, lisp is good enough for me currently, so trying to avoid getting sucked into language design any more than needed :) 02:18:15 jli: this is back from the start :) yes, abstraction is what it's all about (turing complete, we were before too). Yet the possibility to form those abstractions might be the only thing that allows you to understand my (or your own) program. 02:18:35 -!- runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:18:47 _3b: I find it interesting, if you ever come up with something, feel free to show it to me. 02:18:58 runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 02:19:22 okay. I still don't know what we're talking about. 02:19:26 <_3b> madnificent: bookmark that vpri page, it is mind-expanding in a similar manner to lisp, if less practically useful currently :) 02:19:28 *jli* goes back to Project Euler 02:19:59 <_3b> they sort of take all the meta from forth + smalltalk + lisp and mush it together 02:20:22 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 02:20:33 jli: initially the discuttion was: are macros needed to make you build nice abstractions. Then it became: are macro's the only way to do things like that (regardless of what CL provides us with). Now it is a general happyness, I think 02:20:41 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:20:43 jli: good luck on project euler 02:21:15 <_3b> parsers and codegen as modifiable first class objects, that sort of thing... 02:21:50 screw it, I'm just going to bed 02:22:03 I'll deal with that part of the book tomorrow in another impossible day 02:22:38 have fun all 02:23:26 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AC98.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:25:10 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:25:10 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:25:13 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:27 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.108] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:01 I suppose I have quite a ways to go. The parts of lisp that I've found most useful are higher-order functions and CLOS. 02:26:30 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:56 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-148-198.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:54 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-148-198.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:28:16 mooglenorph, I'll save you some time. the most useful part is being able to name symbols whatever you want. 02:28:43 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:28:53 I'd vote for macros 02:29:07 jli, in what sense? 02:29:38 -!- spec[afk] [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["ZzzZZzzz..."] 02:30:26 (defun |greatest(?!,) function*@$ %~`ever| () (expt 10 100)) 02:30:40 the line noise possibilites are endless 02:31:08 hahaha 02:32:33 jli: great for math! x^k/b, |{1/x : x \in y}| are very nice names ;) 02:34:49 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-3fa7970654a9d450] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:35:15 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:40 part of me would really want thise things to render, in a lisp buffer 02:36:46 like with AuCTeX 02:38:08 i love it when a government agency asks you to scrape other people's websites to reuse the "content" unattributed 02:38:16 seems really gratuitous though. 02:38:38 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:40:05 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 02:41:31 uh, so slime-repl now hijacks ~ in slime-mode buffers? 02:41:43 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:37 S11001001: there was some change in the keybindings 02:43:44 is the best way to count the digits in a number (length (princ-to-string number))? 02:43:53 jli: how about log? 02:44:48 S11001001, oh, nice. 02:45:19 S11001001: maybe it's not the proper way. it hides the true purpose I think 02:45:33 there's also format 02:46:15 I wonder which is faster 02:46:52 I mean for the ~ thing 02:47:16 -!- runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:47:49 jli: I would expect that the run time is negligible for both 02:48:32 runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 02:49:58 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 02:50:04 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:50:38 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 02:52:06 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:34 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:53:53 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-25-165.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:15 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["leaving"] 02:55:10 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:30 -!- Cronos [n=a@5ac6c90c.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 02:58:05 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@u16-121.dsl.vianetworks.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:00:09 hey everyone, I'm a little new to lisp, and I was wondering if anyone had some suggestions for some CL projects to work on to get my feet wet 03:01:02 inforichland: how new you are? 03:01:30 inforichland: do you know the book Practical Common Lisp? 03:01:32 um, kinda newish, but not to programming 03:01:37 yep, I have a copy of PCL 03:01:43 and I've read through some of On Lisp and SICP 03:02:22 inforichland, you should work on stumpwm! 03:02:39 jli: i've heard of that, and I've been meaning to try it out, too 03:02:43 haven't gotten around to that 03:03:44 it sounds a lot like xmonad 03:03:50 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:04:19 i think i'm being converted from haskell to lisp XD 03:04:31 it's visually minimalist, keyboard-driven, and primarily tiling, but it's not dynamically tiling, and is generally more feature-rich 03:04:45 do you know haskell? 03:04:49 and are you currently using xmonad? 03:04:59 yes, I know haskell 03:05:01 but no I don't use xmonad 03:05:34 too bad one can't use different window managers on each virtual desktop 03:06:18 Does (declaim (special *foo*)) make *foo* special just for the file? It seems the clhs says it's implementation dependent, but I'm not sure. 03:06:38 you could spawn a vnc session with a different wm and set it full screen on one of the virtual desktops i guess :) 03:06:38 z0d: that would be sweet 03:07:10 -!- rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:08:21 rtoym: You'd have to load the file before compiling anything else to be portable? 03:08:48 *rtoym* just heard about Thiemo. So sorry to hear that. 03:09:41 pkhuong: I just wanted to know if *foo* would become special for other files too, as if I had done (defvar *foo*). 03:10:07 jli: I like what I see so far with stumpwm 03:10:23 jli: especially the built-in interaction with the lisp process 03:10:31 inforichland, #stumpwm is friendly (except for bobf - just ignore him =D) 03:10:35 brewski [n=wbruschi@cpe-74-75-38-198.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:38 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:10:57 jli, ok, I'll have to check that channel out 03:11:16 repnop, or just xnest 03:11:50 er, xephyr, I meant. 03:12:19 jli: true :) 03:12:22 -!- jimt [n=jim@202.27.212.33] has left #lisp 03:13:17 rtoym: is any compile-time effect guaranteed to work across files? 03:15:07 paste.lisp.org dead? 03:16:25 divinebovine [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:31 pkhuong: I don't think so. But I can never remember, and I can never find it. :-( 03:16:47 But gcl seems to make it persist across files. 03:19:04 -!- runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:20:18 runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 03:21:48 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:26:58 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.45] has joined #lisp 03:27:20 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:01 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:31:35 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 03:33:44 p8m_mobi [n=p8m_mobi@174-157-245-205.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:48 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.240.104] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:35:36 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:37:15 -!- p8m_mobi [n=p8m_mobi@174-157-245-205.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:37:29 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:37:49 p8m_mobi [n=p8m_mobi@174-157-245-205.pools.spcsdns.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:00 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:25 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:38:46 blitz_ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has joined #lisp 03:38:48 -!- p8m_mobi [n=p8m_mobi@174-157-245-205.pools.spcsdns.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:39:05 p8m_mobi [n=p8m_mobi@174.157.245.205] has joined #lisp 03:39:37 mikezor [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 03:40:08 -!- p8m_mobi [n=p8m_mobi@174.157.245.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:40:30 merAch [n=none@c-71-199-20-205.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:43 lisppaste: url 03:40:44 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 03:40:59 kleppari: works for me 03:41:02 *S11001001* hits self on head 03:41:08 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has quit [Client Quit] 03:41:28 must remember to stick after-continuation actions in the continuable code...must remember to stick after-continuation actions in the CPS code... 03:42:14 minion: memo for S11001001 stick after-continuation actions in the CPS code 03:42:15 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 03:43:34 thanks z0d, you are always looking out for me :P 03:44:25 blitz_ [n=julian@2001:6f8:10f6:0:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 03:44:43 <_3b> looks like paste.lisp.org has DNS trouble :( 03:44:55 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@2001:6f8:10f6:0:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit [Client Quit] 03:45:00 blitz_ [n=julian@2001:6f8:10f6:0:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 03:45:28 <_3b> no response from either of lisp.org's nameservers from here 03:45:51 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-157.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:57 p8m_mobi [n=p8m_mobi@174.157.245.205] has joined #lisp 03:47:13 -!- brewski [n=wbruschi@cpe-74-75-38-198.maine.res.rr.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:49:02 -!- runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:49:17 runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 03:49:37 aggieben [n=irchon@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 03:50:07 -!- aggieben [n=irchon@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:51:32 -!- jaywong [n=jay@c-67-188-39-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:51:58 jaywong [n=jay@c-67-188-39-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:55 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 03:52:56 -!- jaywong [n=jay@c-67-188-39-253.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:57:24 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:57:43 -!- p8m_mobi [n=p8m_mobi@174.157.245.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:08:04 Kathrin-26^away [n=kati-zh@126-39-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 04:09:18 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:13:40 -!- ken_p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:15:12 -!- elurin [n=user@85.96.235.121] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:15:36 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@bas1-montreal42-1177927794.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 04:15:40 -!- inforichland [n=tim@68-118-159-71.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [] 04:16:24 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:18:20 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.139.50] has joined #lisp 04:20:59 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:07 cliffr [n=canuck11@d75-155-181-141.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:01 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@59-125-180-141.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:25:31 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:25:31 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:25:34 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:36 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 04:27:23 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:27:27 Soulmann [n=kae@77.75.208.226] has joined #lisp 04:32:02 -!- younder [n=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 04:33:24 younder [i=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 04:33:31 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:36:26 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.45] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:39:42 Lou_ [n=lat@125.162.205.66] has joined #lisp 04:41:28 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:43:22 I'm working my way through chapter 2 of Practical Common Lisp. For some reason "," in the slime prompt is no longer taking me to the command line. Anyone know the cause of this problem. 04:45:39 what's it do instead? 04:45:51 oh, sorry, wrong answer 04:46:22 contribs contribs contribsy contribs slime-fancy 04:46:37 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"] 04:49:14 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120121]"] 04:49:47 elurin [n=user@85.96.235.121] has joined #lisp 04:50:20 It just types a comma at the slime prompt. 04:52:30 -!- dbalcer [n=dbalcer@host121-155-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 04:54:13 what's the name of the buffer? 04:55:13 hi.lisp 04:56:00 repl is no longer working. 04:56:29 you're not at the REPL, you're editing a file. Comma commands only work at the REPL. If you've recently updated SLIME, then S11001001 is probably right, and you need to load the slime-fancy contrib. 05:01:01 You are right. I am just editing a file. Ok, I'll be back in a few minutes. 05:03:35 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178048069.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:06:09 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 05:06:28 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 05:09:34 When I bring up slime it says "; SLIME 2008-07-05" at the top of the window. 05:09:57 Does that tell the version I'm using? 05:09:59 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:10:21 cky [n=cky@203-211-84-191.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:12:55 whoah ... does slime eat #\~ now ... how odd 05:13:23 pkhuong, how do I load the slime-fancy contrib? 05:14:39 Lou_: never mind, it's old enough that you can still do basic stuff without it. 05:18:15 pkhuong, is there an easy way to update slime, so that I'm learning what is current? 05:19:00 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1EDEF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:18 segv [n=mb@p4FC1C55A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:17 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:25:25 -!- cmsimon [n=cmsimon@unaffiliated/cmsimon] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:25:44 Lou_: I don't there's anything really important that's changed in the way SLIME works in a while. You can get it from CVS if you want (see the project's homepage). 05:27:56 pkhuong, ok. Thanks. 05:30:04 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.84] has joined #lisp 05:35:14 C-c Cq doesn't insert closing parentheses as the Practical Common Lisp book says. 05:36:04 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.139.50] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:37:16 -!- sunkencity_ [n=sunkenci@h121n2c1o1036.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:37:20 What does this mean: CL-USER> (defun h () 05:37:21 (format t "hi")) 05:37:21 STYLE-WARNING: redefining H in DEFUN 05:37:21 H 05:37:52 What is wrong with the style? 05:38:24 Is Practical Common Lisp too outdated to be a good learning tool? 05:38:27 exactly that. It means there already was a definition for the function H, and your new one is replacing it. It might be the symptom of a coding error (e.g. typo), so there's a style warning. If you're aware that you're redefining a function, there's nothing wrong. 05:38:55 Lou_: absolutely not. I don't think a couple different keybindings should stop anyone from learning a programming language. 05:38:58 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 05:40:43 pkhuong, good. I'll keep on then. 05:43:14 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@2001:6f8:10f6:0:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 05:45:17 pkhuong, from your comment about the style warning, am I correct in assuming that the slime window is interacting with the lisp file in a different buffer? 05:47:05 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:14 What will happen if I have two lisp files open at the same time? 05:47:19 Lou_: SLIME works with a single process for everything, so all the state is shared. That way you can define things in your buffers, evaluate or compile/load them, and have access to your definitions to tests them out, etc. at the REPL. 05:48:43 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-200-32.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:39 pkhuong, I appreciate the help. I've just installed stumpwm also, so I'm trying to learn a lot of lisp things at once right now. 05:52:50 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:53:05 I'm using SBCL. 05:53:28 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 06:02:47 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 06:09:48 -!- replaca [n=tom@76-191-193-111.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit ["leaving"] 06:13:28 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:13:40 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.134.38] has joined #lisp 06:18:09 -!- Kirklander [n=Kirkland@216.93.247.56] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:18:44 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.84] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:19:11 hey 06:19:25 is there a nice way to read vector data into lisp? like from svg or dxf or maybe pdf? 06:21:10 leo2007 [n=leo@121.207.14.226] has joined #lisp 06:28:34 svg is XML so use a xml path reader like perkiles 06:28:49 -!- younder [i=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 06:30:29 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.170.68] has left #lisp 06:34:28 -!- elurin [n=user@85.96.235.121] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:42:52 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:42:57 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:43:08 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:49:57 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has quit [] 06:51:24 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:00 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.166] has joined #lisp 06:57:45 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:28 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.169.62] has joined #lisp 07:03:08 cracki [n=cracki@42-178.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:08:10 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-109-102.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:18 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-10-232.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 07:10:37 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:12:06 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-105-137.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 07:13:48 heh, not exactly what i had in mind with "nice" :} 07:15:04 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.134.38] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:15:22 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-109-102.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:17:34 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:26:27 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@121.207.14.226] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:27:16 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-67-243-48-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:17 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.135.141] has joined #lisp 07:30:58 athos [n=philipp@p54B8446F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:23 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 07:31:38 beach [n=user@58.186.166.9] has joined #lisp 07:31:41 Good afternoon. 07:31:57 Greetings beach. 07:32:29 Good morning. 07:32:49 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 07:33:01 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.233.143] has joined #lisp 07:37:26 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@120.pool85-54-87.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 07:38:15 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 07:40:12 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:41:18 xinming__ [n=hyy@218.73.134.222] has joined #lisp 07:45:07 -!- cracki [n=cracki@42-178.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:45:27 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.166] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:45:46 leo2007 [n=leo@121.207.14.226] has joined #lisp 07:45:50 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:06 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 07:46:43 ken_p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 07:46:46 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-235-98.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 07:47:38 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:47:40 brill [n=brill@0x57386060.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:48:44 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.252.97.152] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:49:00 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 07:50:49 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.58.139] has joined #lisp 07:54:26 -!- pstickne is now known as qsitckne 07:58:52 -!- qsitckne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:59:20 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [] 07:59:25 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.135.141] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:01 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:00:11 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:00:12 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.58.139] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:01:49 Hi. Has anyone got a good link to a script repository? Kinda like a lisp cook book. 08:04:06 brill: I have one: http://www.google.com/search?q=lisp+cookbook 08:04:15 brill: And http://cliki.net/ is your friend. 08:06:21 vy: Thanks. I'll take a look. 08:07:50 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.233.143] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:11:13 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.129.110] has joined #lisp 08:13:52 Does planet.lisp work for you? 08:14:22 It seems to not respond. 08:14:47 tcr: Sorry. Just had a look. And yes it does. 08:15:09 jewel_ [n=jewel@dsl-242-132-215.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:17:56 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 08:18:14 <_3b> lisp.org nameservers have been flaky at best all night :( 08:18:52 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:23:27 eevar2 [n=jalla@239.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:26:24 dbalcer [n=dbalcer@151.83.8.123] has joined #lisp 08:28:35 good morning 08:29:10 hefner: ok, thanks 08:29:16 -!- xinming__ [n=hyy@218.73.134.222] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:30:54 hello mvilleneuve 08:32:55 It appears to be readscheme.org is suffering from availability problems too. 08:33:11 coincident? 08:33:54 -!- brill [n=brill@0x57386060.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 08:34:09 def [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:24 <_3b> different symptoms at least 08:34:34 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@120.pool85-54-87.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 08:35:21 -!- abeaumont 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[n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279633759.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 11:11:16 antoni [n=antoni@230.pool85-53-27.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 11:14:01 drafael [n=Ricardo@ip-118-90-133-105.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:14:55 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279439877.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:15:21 -!- def_ [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:16:02 def_ [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has joined #lisp 11:18:21 with some comments you just have to wonder... 11:18:25 I just got (lpfn (* :void)) ; BFFCALLBACK 11:18:31 Best Friends Forever callback? 11:18:45 (windows APIs are strange (-:) 11:21:33 funnily enough, the guy who came up with that system sponsored the oxford chair for the public understanding of science which Dawkins occupies 11:22:03 it was joked when he left MS that he should be given the Dawkins chair for the private bafflement of everything else in cambridge :) 11:23:52 BFF no doubt stands for something that you would know if only you'd been doing nothing but win32api work for the past few decades 11:24:40 Does anyone have any experience fetching euc-jp encoded webpages? Drakma falls back to binary output 11:27:54 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:27:59 -!- antoni [n=antoni@230.pool85-53-27.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:27:59 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:27:59 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:27:59 -!- merAch [n=none@c-71-199-20-205.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:27:59 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:27:59 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:27:59 -!- oklofok [n=nnscript@a91-153-121-248.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:27:59 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:27:59 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:27:59 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:27:59 -!- _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:27:59 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm247.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:27:59 -!- Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:27:59 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:27:59 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:27:59 -!- jli [n=jli@adsl-074-229-201-181.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:27:59 -!- turbo24prg [n=turbo24p@mail.turbolent.com] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:27:59 -!- rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:27:59 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@194.51.71.190] has quit [wolfe.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:28:03 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:28:39 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 antoni [n=antoni@230.pool85-53-27.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@lns-bzn-49f-81-56-173-50.adsl.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 merAch [n=none@c-71-199-20-205.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 jli [n=jli@adsl-074-229-201-181.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 oklofok [n=nnscript@a91-153-121-248.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm247.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 _3b [i=foobar@cpe-70-112-214-100.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 11:29:37 turbo24prg [n=turbo24p@mail.turbolent.com] has joined #lisp 11:29:38 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 11:31:21 leo2007` [n=leo@121.207.14.226] has joined #lisp 11:34:12 elurin [n=user@85.96.235.121] has joined #lisp 11:34:25 Ouch. 82.85 seconds to run ASDF:TEST-OP on jess-parse with a clean checkout. 11:37:02 -!- antoni [n=antoni@230.pool85-53-27.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [No route to host] 11:38:13 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:38:17 user_ [n=user@p5492761C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:40:04 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 11:45:19 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:49:46 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@121.207.14.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:50:20 mega1 [n=mega@3e70d7b6.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 11:50:54 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-235-98.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 11:52:04 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-200-32.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:56:37 -!- elurin [n=user@85.96.235.121] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:58:29 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-15-78.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:58:55 Do slime have a function to re-compile all the related files? I am currently removing all the *.fasl file manually to do it. 11:59:27 <_8david> BrowseForFolder? 12:00:13 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:00:26 tomoyuki28jp: I see there are some `slime-recompile-all-x' stuff. 12:02:07 vy: really? Only matched function to slime-recompile* for me is slime-recompile-bytecode. 12:02:17 <_8david> ,force-load-system 12:02:17 -!- brill [n=brill@0x57386060.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 12:02:20 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 12:03:06 tomoyuki28jp: There is `slime-recompile-all-xrefs' I see. Check what _8david said. 12:03:54 younder [i=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 12:04:31 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A23DD.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:04:47 Is there a CL interface to DirectX? 12:05:20 I seem to be a little confused. Are strings literal objects? 12:05:37 Is it legal to destructively modify them? 12:06:28 How were they created.. 12:06:40 in SBCL using sb-ext:octets-to-string, is it possible to simply skip malformed characters? 12:07:13 Aankhen``: the two issues are orthogonal. there can be literal strings if they're literally embedded in the source code 12:07:23 Hmm, the glossary entry for "literal" says that a string appearing as "foo" in the source is a literal object, yet the example for REPLACE uses literal strings in that form. 12:07:41 The first example for REPLACE, rather. 12:07:52 is replace a destructive function? 12:07:58 fe[nl]ix: So is (replace "foo" "bar") legal or not? 12:08:08 drafael: "Sequence-1 is destructively modified […]". 12:08:18 -!- jewel_ is now known as jewel 12:08:34 Aankhen``: it's not guaranteed to work. in that sense it's not legal 12:09:02 fe[nl]ix: I see, thanks for the clarification. 12:09:09 *Aankhen``* shall stick to making a copy or a new string. 12:09:31 weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 12:10:24 mib_s58p5c [i=4f346f51@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-683ec1ec8d9c8995] has joined #lisp 12:10:25 Aankhen``: not all examples in CLHS are valid 12:10:41 http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/strings.html 12:10:44 stassats`: I didn't know that. I shall keep it in mind from now on. 12:11:29 -!- mib_s58p5c [i=4f346f51@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-683ec1ec8d9c8995] has left #lisp 12:11:35 Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-303951.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 12:11:47 drafael: I don't think that's possible. (Neither via flexi-streams.) 12:12:04 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:13:26 Damn.. I suppose I'll have to do some sort of function to check against the standard then and remove the offending bytes or something 12:13:38 clhs 1.4.3 12:13:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/01_dc.htm 12:13:45 #- 12:13:51 about examples 12:14:04 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-21-119.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:14:19 drafael: OTOH, a patch to flexi-streams/SBCL would be awesome. 12:15:15 <_8david> drafael: you can just invoke the use-value restart 12:15:15 -!- def_ [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:15:23 def_ [n=df@bspencer.plus.com] has joined #lisp 12:15:25 <_8david> (handler-bind ((sb-int:character-coding-error (lambda (c) (invoke-restart 'use-value "")))) (sb-ext:octets-to-string ...)) 12:15:28 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:54 <_8david> "" being the replacement, so you could also use "?" rather than "" 12:16:39 a bit SBCL spesific.. 12:16:43 I'll give that a try, thanks 12:17:38 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-15-78.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:18:23 <_8david> well, the question was about sb-ext:octets-to-string, which is already SBCL specific 12:18:43 <_8david> you could also use babel though: (babel:octets-to-string ... :encoding ... :errorp nil) 12:19:25 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:19:48 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 12:22:08 strange, even if I do (invoke-restart 'use-value #\?) I get "The value "?" is not of type CHARACTER." 12:22:34 drafael: you could check out babel; it does some extra charsets 12:23:29 The whole problem stems from drakma refusing to output EUC-JP pages :| .. I'll have a look at babel now then anyway, thanks 12:23:32 drafael: Try this at the REPL: (equal #\? "?") 12:24:07 NIL 12:24:29 Indeed. 12:24:29 it shouldn't be, either 12:24:39 Er, you think it should return T? 12:24:42 it wants a character though, not a string I think 12:24:50 no, I think it should return nil 12:24:52 drafael: babel doesn't have euc-jp support either 12:24:54 OK. 12:25:02 bob pasted "stumpwmrc" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73228 12:25:12 using "?" gives the same result anyway 12:25:33 Damn it. 12:25:43 Oh. Argh. 12:25:45 drafael: I suppose the page in questuion isn't available in UTF-8? 12:26:14 It's a random yahoo! japan blog page 12:26:25 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70d7b6.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:26:29 ah 12:26:42 I'm surprised they haven't shifted to utf-8 output 12:26:51 drafael: I didn't mean you should use "?", I was just pointing out that your #\? was being pre-processed before Babel tried to use it. 12:27:06 Idea being to create a generic Y!J blog reader 12:27:13 Uh, s/Babel/whatever you were using/ 12:27:27 oh, good point 12:28:19 It's always fun to see one more line of code add 8,000 tests. 12:28:33 '#\? yields no cigar though :( 12:28:55 drafael: Perhaps you should investigate how it's being used. 12:29:06 froydnj: there is probably a scary library you could use via cffi 12:30:20 Is there a CL interface to DirectX? 12:31:14 -!- nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:31:17 Or only OpenGL. 12:31:28 -!- runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:31:33 <_8david> younder: I don't think anyone wrote such an interface in the last 26 minutes, so it's probably not worth asking again 12:31:41 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 12:32:11 runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has joined #lisp 12:32:21 _8david: All I wanted was a yes/no answer. Not replying just means nobody kows. 12:37:06 younder: there's SDL bindings which should provide OpenGL access, I think 12:37:25 Oh, wait, you know that, never mind I misread 12:37:56 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-67-243-48-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:38:58 _8david: there's a USE-VALUE function which is equivalent to (lambda (c) (invoke-restart 'use-value)) 12:39:20 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-67-243-48-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:41:31 <_8david> cool. 12:42:01 tcr: May I know what it is? 12:42:47 drafael: You can use (handler-bind ((sb-int:character-coding-error #'use-value)) ...) 12:43:22 <_8david> don't you mean something like (curry #'use-value ) 12:45:55 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:46:44 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:46:57 how was 'curry'defined? 12:46:58 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 12:47:20 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:47:26 <_8david> in alexandria, for eaxmple 12:49:29 So, what do people use to copy existing source trees over to cl.net, since rsync access appears to be read-only? 12:50:34 <_8david> rsync. Over ssh. 12:51:01 How? I tried --rsh=ssh, it just tells me the connection was closed and 0 bytes were received. 12:51:39 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:53:08 <_8david> what's your full command line? 12:53:42 Hang on, I'll nopaste it. 12:54:44 -!- nxt is now known as lasts 12:55:04 younder, (defun curry (function &rest args) 12:55:04 (lambda (&rest more-args) 12:55:04 (apply function (append args more-args)))) 12:55:10 Aankhen pasted "rsync fun" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73229 12:55:24 _8david: That's what I see. 12:56:02 Asking Googlegod suggests that I should try --{no-,}blocking-io, but that doesn't seem to have any effect (same error). 12:57:27 <_8david> use : rather than :: 12:58:15 -!- user_ [n=user@p5492761C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:58:54 Progress! Now it tells me `mkdir "/home/aankhen/project/jess-parse"` failed ("No such file or directory (2)"). 12:59:08 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@120.pool85-54-87.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:00:11 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.113] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:00:35 Okay, I added a leading slash to the path. It seems to be doing something now. 13:00:53 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:01:09 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:01:14 Cool, that worked. 13:01:18 _8david: Thanks for the help. 13:06:58 I guess I wait now for a cronjob to add it to hgweb. 13:11:19 Entering #\? as a replacement when replacing invalid characters on non EUC-JP works, so it must be something to do with the encoding again that's making it not register it as a character.. 13:11:31 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:12:12 When dealing with EUC-JP from octet conversion 13:12:40 aartist [n=REENA@ool-44c51a97.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:12:46 test 13:12:48 I've tried giving it a #\KATAKANA_LETTER_NI to no avail 13:12:56 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-98-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 13:14:41 Hmm, I could be wrong. 13:15:27 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:17:40 robyonrails [n=roby@host234-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:27:04 milanj [n=milan@212.200.193.94] has joined #lisp 13:27:51 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:28:10 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BB10.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:59 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 13:29:05 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 13:32:44 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:33:23 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:04 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:37:59 Aankhen``: Eyes? 13:40:37 Yes. 13:42:08 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 13:43:27 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 13:43:31 you're using the test case that says NI. 13:44:44 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:25 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbff32.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 13:49:02 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:49:49 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:52:38 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 13:55:13 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb517f.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:18 mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:57:14 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F353.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:33 antifuchs: I am? 13:58:50 sorry, couldn't resist making this joke (: 13:59:07 ='( 13:59:20 ahh, I'm going to sleep on it 13:59:26 -!- drafael is now known as drafael|sleep 14:03:59 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:27 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 14:06:16 sellout: ping 14:06:48 fe[nl]ix: lemme guess ... I need to make a new release? 14:07:51 yes, but before that, could you comment on the latest thread ? 14:08:01 see if you like Stephen's "portable fluids" patch 14:08:11 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@120.pool85-54-87.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 14:09:34 Yeah, sorry ... I flagged that, but I've been crazy busy since I got back from vacation. I'll try to take a look today. 14:09:45 ok 14:09:58 fe[nl]ix: if you could have malloced memory that's freed when there isn't any SAP to it, how would the interface look like? 14:12:31 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbff32.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:13:42 pkhuong: I think I'd add a new argument to sb-alien:make-alien 14:14:22 pkhuong: are you considering adding support for such a scheme to gencgc ? 14:15:37 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:18:04 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 14:19:30 pip [n=pip@unaffiliated/pip] has joined #lisp 14:19:43 This channel is all about Common Lisp isn't it ? 14:19:52 pip: correct 14:19:58 Okay 14:20:10 Long time no see, gentlemen 14:20:28 I got tired of not being able to allocate as much memory as malloc could because I forgot to twiddle the right flag 14:20:51 mulander [n=user@80.51.122.72] has joined #lisp 14:21:02 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:22:12 pkhuong, what does that mean ? 14:24:12 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 14:25:55 pkhuong, So LISP is not as powerful as C ? 14:26:22 how could you tell whether there is or is not a sap to a given value? that's like trying to figure out whether a fixnum of a given value currently "exists" 14:26:33 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0C822.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:56 pkhuong: what about using cffi and calling malloc? 14:27:20 You can do C level programming in lisp, thanks to FFI. 14:28:04 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@dhcp-47251.stud.phys.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 14:28:30 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:28:58 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:30:31 pip: there are many scales along which power can be measured 14:30:39 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BB10.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:31:12 dlowe, the ability to control hardware in a low level 14:31:24 -!- divinebovine [n=bite@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:32:04 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:32:05 I control mhy hardware with a screwdriver 14:32:28 pip: I don't think any language choice is going to affect that ability very much 14:32:45 ksergio, that's cool 14:33:04 Even in C, to do an inp or out, you need to fall back to assembly. 14:33:50 I see 14:35:34 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:35:47 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 14:36:04 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-21-119.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [] 14:36:43 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 14:37:41 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:52 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 14:39:47 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:40:56 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:43:27 -!- Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-303951.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 14:44:48 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F353.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:50:46 Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-303951.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:51:05 -!- leo2007` [n=leo@121.207.14.226] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:52:59 jsnell: assuming that the SAPs are used as references. 14:53:39 antoni [n=antoni@101.pool85-53-6.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 14:55:53 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:55:56 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 14:56:05 -!- mulander [n=user@80.51.122.72] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:56:47 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:57:11 benny [n=benny@i577A1B4D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:57:33 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:58 <_8david> IIANM, SAPs are autoboxed just like numbers. So you can't assume that a SAP object stays EQL. 15:00:15 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.238.230] has joined #lisp 15:00:16 <_8david> So it could sit in a register as an untagged value when GC happens. 15:00:44 _8david: no, you can't; otherwise we'd just use finalizers. You can however track the address they point to during GCs. Re registers, same problem as with lisp pointers; you have to be conservative. 15:01:59 why not just make another kind of pointer that holds the actual SAP and attach a finalizer to that 15:02:59 blitz_ [n=julian@2001:6f8:10f6:0:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 15:06:07 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:06:28 hello lispers 15:06:31 AWizzArd [n=wizard@pD9EB8B4C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:06:55 hello kiuma 15:07:32 cms ideas clearer. I'm ready to start 15:07:35 :D 15:07:57 today. I woke up @ 5.00 :/ 15:09:06 kiuma: gives you much time to work ;) 15:09:19 *madnificent* goes shopping (food), later all 15:09:43 luis: that's what I currently do. But there's a double indirection (... int-sap and unboxed structure slots could fix that). 15:10:10 With Ironclad I made a cipher and would now like to encrypt data. I had (defvar x (make-array 20)) and now do: (ironclad:encrypt cipher "test" x), but it always returns 0 and 0. How can I make it to actually encrypt "test" with my cipher? 15:10:40 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:16 is http://repo.or.cz/ reliable as a git hosting service? 15:18:12 worked for me so far like a charm 15:18:16 H4ns1: pretty reliable 15:18:23 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 15:18:31 H4ns1: their website is sometimes slow, but apart from that I've never experienced any problem. You can even change your public key now. 15:18:42 tcr/fe[nl]ix/pkhuong: so you'd recommend it? 15:18:51 H4ns1: AFAIK they've had only one downtime period since opening 15:19:04 but all the cool kids are supposed to use github now 15:19:10 H4ns1: yes. I'm using it for iolib, for instance 15:19:23 thanks! 15:21:12 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:21:26 ave fe[nl]ix 15:23:14 jsnell: I don't like github's interface: it's too AJAX-y, fluffy 15:23:18 ave kiuma 15:23:28 "sure, it's reliable, but does it have pretty graphics?" 15:24:32 -!- Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-303951.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:25:15 _sana [n=sana@p22.eregie.pub.ro] has joined #lisp 15:25:49 So who wants a laugh? 15:26:01 -!- simonb [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:26:10 -!- AWizzArd [n=wizard@pD9EB8B4C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 15:26:20 schme: not me 15:26:33 oh man wrong channel. sorry! 15:26:33 that just put the mary poppins song in my head.... thanks 15:26:51 tsuru: "wrong channel" by mary poppins? 15:27:12 -!- pip [n=pip@unaffiliated/pip] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:28:08 <_8david> while I'm very happy with repo.or.cz, github's "backed up nightly off-site" gives it reliability points over repo.or.cz's "Your repository is NOT backed up!" 15:28:22 Dynetrekk: no the laughing song at the end of the movie 15:28:39 tsuru: didn't see it 15:29:00 <_sana> hi, i want to start studying lisp ( got experience with Scheme and Haskell ), what IDE should i use ? 15:29:09 emacs 15:29:12 + slime 15:29:50 what he said 15:29:59 <_sana> anyone used cusp , eclipse plugin? 15:30:08 unless you want to try out the non-open source stuff... then there's Lispworks and Allegro 15:30:13 slime is awesome :) 15:30:38 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 15:30:44 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B8446F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:30:46 _sana: from my eclipse experience it is probably not as nice as slime but I haven't used cusp 15:31:33 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-67-243-48-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:32:30 <_sana> Dynetrekk: i belive you, but i never used emacs; changing editors makes me move very slow, i will give cusp a chance and then i'll try what all you said :) 15:33:44 _sana: I just had the same experience as you. recently started using emacs. it works surprisingly well; people here will help you install slime. I suggest you use aquamacs (on the mac) or xemacs, which have more graphically oriented programs (easier for a newbie) 15:34:00 _sana: though for java I'd stick with eclipse any day 15:34:42 well you're going to be relatively slow anyway learning a new language... might as well jump in with both feet :P 15:34:46 <_sana> well , i use eclipse for anything :P 15:35:11 _sana: I agree with tsuru (and I used eclipse for stuff before :) 15:35:13 _sana: even for email ? 15:35:17 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:35:36 fe[nl]ix: I wouldn't be surprised if it is possible 15:35:45 <_sana> fe[nl]ix: yes :)) 15:35:54 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:37:25 _sana: gmailclipse ? 15:38:15 somebody was afraid that eclipse would be struck down by jwz's law, obviously (: 15:39:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.238.230] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:39:42 <_sana> fe[nl]ix: yes ! :) 15:40:13 Cronos [n=a@5ad41138.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 15:44:58 xemacs is problematic these days, isn't it? 15:47:29 _sana: Cusp is said to be quite nice. 15:47:51 _sana: And it is used on a day-to-day basis by a couple of people 15:48:27 mega1 [n=mega@3e70d7b6.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 15:48:56 _sana: Its author is even in this channel! (Jasko) 15:49:48 I've used it 15:49:52 it's actually okay 15:49:52 you darn kids keep making my chat client flash! 15:49:58 though I prefer slime 15:50:20 but yeah, switching to emacs is great if you want to relearn how to type instead of learning how to program lisp 15:50:42 Jasko: in eclipse, you program lisp without typing? 15:50:52 just curious! 15:51:00 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@dhcp-47251.stud.phys.ntnu.no] has quit [] 15:51:35 through THOUGHT! 15:51:41 I have wires running directly to my brain 15:52:20 but I was referring more to the fact that you use the same shortcuts and ui concepts that all other programs use. 15:52:34 copy and paste? 15:52:37 scnr 15:52:57 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 15:53:18 probably not that bad on windows 15:53:21 Jasko: bah, last time I checked Eclipse didn't even get TAB right. 15:53:26 eclipse on macos is... weird 15:56:40 Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-4385222.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 15:58:29 -!- sledge [n=chris@pdpc/supporter/student/sledge] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:58:32 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:00:07 rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #lisp 16:01:44 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 16:02:05 luis: for your trivial-garbage library, what's the :regression-test package that you use for the tests? Is that a hacked version of Dick Waters's? 16:02:13 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@239.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:02:25 bpt_ [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:02:32 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 16:02:48 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:03:35 willb [n=wibenton@wireless107.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:04:00 rpg: kmr's version 16:04:13 <_sana> the lisp code is compiled into native code ? 16:04:20 _sana: yes 16:04:39 <_sana> luis: but how is this possible, lisp isn't a static typed language 16:04:52 <_sana> luis: it attach a runtime enviroment ? 16:05:07 luis: Ah. Is that available somewhere? I couldn't find it on cliki. 16:05:19 <_sana> luis: i start reading about lisp 5 minutes ago, so be patient :D 16:05:25 rpg: http://www.cliki.net/RT 16:05:26 _sana: C also needs a runtime environment (libc.so) 16:05:50 <_sana> luis: yes, but it's size is low 16:05:50 (for instance) 16:06:07 fe[nl]ix: ah. So it is dick waters's package. 16:06:08 <_sana> luis: haskell can be compiled into native code, but the hello world will have 400 kilos 16:06:25 avdi [n=avdi@216.230.102.194] has joined #lisp 16:06:28 who cares about "hello world"? 16:06:39 <_sana> adeht: me, now :)) 16:06:42 I feel happy today:) After a couple of months with tampering with lisp, I tried to write something in C++ and I had a really hard time! I just put parentheses in all the wrong places:) 16:06:57 who cares about those who care about "hello world"? ;) 16:07:05 Beket: I have similar problems mixing up format and printf syntax 16:07:11 minion: tell _sana about lisp survey 16:07:12 _sana: direct your attention towards lisp survey: http://www.common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html A survey by Daniel Weinreb comparing Common Lisp implementations, both commercial and open-source, that were active as of late 2007. It also has useful links to learning resources at the end 16:07:25 _sana: check the resources at the end 16:07:53 luis: A guy I'm working with wants to add weak-vectors to trivial-garbage. We can pass you a patch when it's done... 16:07:55 aggieben_ [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 16:08:03 _sana: lisp is a strong dynamically typed language (everything has a type, but the type of a variable may change) 16:08:09 is there a way to tell if a symbol has been escaped with \ or |? 16:08:09 _sana: is that a problem? 16:08:13 -!- aggieben_ is now known as aggieben 16:08:22 madnificent: variables don't have types 16:08:42 rpg: cool 16:08:52 adeht: they have types. By default, they are of type T 16:09:02 <_sana> adeht: ok man, i was joking, and i see you don't. my question was simple and i received an answer, thanks 16:09:03 dlowe: no, they don't 16:09:16 rpg: is it for Allegro ? 16:09:32 (let (x) (declare (fixnum x)) ...) 16:09:36 adeht: it was the closest I could get to give _sana a feel of what it means. Yes, it is incorrect (although, if the type of a variable automatically changes, there is no way of noticing it) 16:09:43 aggieben: No. 16:09:54 fe[nl]ix: It's supposed to be portable, at least to SBCL, and others as possible. 16:10:05 dlowe: that's only a promise to store fixnum _values_ in the variable 16:10:21 aggieben: Though maybe you could write your own #\| and #\\ reader macros if you were really masochistic. ;-) 16:10:27 fe[nl]ix: the trivial-garbage, I believe, implements ACL weak-pointers as weak-vectors, since ACL doesn't have weak pointers, only weak-vectors and weak hash tables. 16:10:31 adeht: you could say the same of C variable definitions 16:10:49 Aankhen``: heh. the problem I'm actually trying to solve isn't nearly so complicated, so I think I'll pass :-) 16:11:04 aggieben: What are you trying to do, if I might ask? 16:11:15 dlowe: wrong.. for a C variable, I can ask for its size in bytes.. how do you do that for a lisp variable? 16:11:26 cl-json has a nifty json-rpc package with a macro called DEFUN-JSON-RPC 16:11:32 _sana: The runtime of the ECL implementation is a shared library which is 4mb big. 16:11:35 adeht: what the hell does that have to do with something having a type?! 16:11:55 madnificent: the layout is not predetermined 16:12:00 it allows you to define a function and it will automatically store it in a hash table and do really easy invoking of json-rpc methods 16:12:10 adeht: portably, you can't. You could, however, dredge up the declaration of the value and apply the internal sizing function in the optimizer 16:12:18 madnificent: at least not from a conceptual point of view 16:12:27 trouble is the keys of the hash table are the name of the function, but run through (STRING-DOWNCASE) 16:12:37 adeht: which is not needed for it to have a type. That is language support for the typing system. Having a type does not imply that you must know everything about that... surely you must realise that+? 16:13:08 like this: (EXPORT-AS-JSON-RPC #',fname (STRING-DOWNCASE (SYMBOL-NAME ',fname))) 16:13:34 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:40 the problem is that json-rpc is case-sensitive, so I can't use that macro for method names that have capital letters in them 16:13:45 adeht: having a type != knowing the bits that are there. For instance, take an enum type, that can be 'mapped' to ints or whatnot, it doesn't matter. If it is an enum type, a type-system will care for the fact that it may take an enum (whatever the definition of an enum) 16:14:22 Aankhen``: there is a work around, but it's not as elegant. If there was a way to detect escaped symbol names, I could just modify the macro and go about my happy way 16:14:27 madnificient: the point is that you can make queries about variables that have something to do with their types 16:14:48 adeht: allso, try to assign a variable of a wrong type to something that was declared to be of a certain type (as dlowe pointed out) it will not work, so there is certainly a type connected to that variable. 16:15:00 adeht: that has nothing to do with having a type! 16:15:36 adeht: just for the comparison, I may have 100000000$, but I will not tell you anything about that. Then do I not have that? 16:16:12 madnificent: That depends entirely on the implementation. Clisp ignores type declarations. 16:16:13 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-76-208.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:16:17 aggieben: Automatically downcasing the function names seems somewhat silly. o_O 16:16:47 madnificent: you just told me about it 16:16:50 Aankhen``: I probably would have done the same thing, because SYMBOL-NAME returns all-capital strings. I hate capital letters in code. 16:16:51 tcr: yes, but it may have a type. whereas adeht claims it not to have a type whatsoever. Since it may have a type, a variable may have a type 16:17:20 Aankhen``: either way poses this problem though 16:17:29 aggieben: I, er… that doesn't really seem like a good reason to downcase the names though. 16:17:30 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-76-208.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 16:17:34 madnificent: point is, declarations other than `special' don't change the meaning of a program if the promises are kept 16:17:53 madnificent: i.e. they are unnecessary for correct behavior 16:17:54 Aankhen``: yeah. maybe it is silly. 16:17:54 adeht: once it accepts that, that variable has a type... 16:18:00 madnificent: i.e. they are an optimization 16:18:01 adeht: therefore it may have a type 16:18:09 aggieben: You could redefine the macro for your own code, or you could create a new macro of your own which handles the plumbing, since that one is only two lines. 16:18:13 adeht: therefore typing is possible, and dlowe was right 16:18:31 Aankhen``: yeah, that was my next conclusion. 16:19:01 Yeah, since EXPORT-AS-JSON-RPC is exported as well, you may as well use it. :-) 16:19:19 exactly 16:20:07 -!- bpt_ [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:08 *Aankhen``* doesn't see why strings are used there at all. 16:20:25 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-76-208.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:20:32 It could have used an EQL hash table keyed on the symbols directly. 16:20:52 re 16:21:36 Aankhen``: the hash table isn't the issue. The issue is when a json-rpc request comes in for method "myFunc". How do you get from there to the right key? 16:22:32 aggieben: Ah, right, you won't control the input. I forgot. 16:23:35 aggieben: you're confused. Symbol-names are not escaped. Characters can be escaped so the reader treats them as constituent characters. 16:24:12 tcr: thanks for the clarification. 16:24:29 aggieben: (symbol-name '|myFun|) => "myFun" 16:24:36 tcr: yes, thank you. I know that. 16:26:37 tcr: sorry. I shouldn't be snippy. I appreciate your input. 16:29:27 bpt_ [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:29:40 weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 16:30:56 morning 16:33:19 <_sana> how can i check if a variable is a list ? in Scheme is list? 16:35:00 madnificent: variables, that is bindings, are not first-class in Common Lisp; they do not have a type. However, a binding can be declared to be only associated with values of a certain type. 16:35:14 _sana: listp 16:35:40 tcr: not many languages allow first-class manipulations of types 16:37:15 rread [n=rread@c-98-234-51-39.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:18 that's silly 16:38:34 a type declaration does not declare the type of a variable 16:38:48 rsynnott: what scary library should I use via cffi and why? 16:40:15 it just reflects the values that the programmer promises may be stored or are stored in a particular scope 16:40:19 adeht: as the sole purpose of variables is to hold values, I don't seem much distinction between constraining the type of the variable or constraining the type of allowed variables 16:40:39 aggieben pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73237 16:41:05 Aankhen``: the paste is the macro that doesn't work for me 16:41:19 elurin [n=user@85.96.235.121] has joined #lisp 16:41:34 Aankhen``: the best I can come up with is to simply remove the STRING-LOWERCASE call and use |symbolName| when I use the macro 16:42:00 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 16:42:07 man typos 16:42:07 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for typos. 16:42:18 adeht: as the sole purpose of variables is to hold values, I don't see much distinction between constraining the type of the variable or constraining the type of allowed values 16:42:33 tcr: that does make the binding of a given type, thus making it (for all practical effects) 'have' a type. Yet in pure essence the binding 'is' of a certain type 16:43:00 aggieben: What do you mean by "doesn't work"? 16:43:01 dlowe: (let ((var (something))) (values (lambda () (declare (type var integer)) ...) (lambda () (declare (type var string)) ...)) what is the type of var? 16:43:32 Aankhen``: a macro can't insert 16:43:38 | around the name paraemter 16:43:38 ? 16:43:42 Yes. 16:43:52 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:43:52 adeht: didn't I say that the type could change at any moment anyways :P type != static type 16:43:55 adeht: NIL 16:44:11 adeht: what type is returned by (something) that satisfies both those promises? 16:44:17 nil 16:44:25 clhs ~( 16:44:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cha.htm 16:44:40 tcr: isn't T the top-level? 16:44:46 madnificent: yes 16:44:56 Wasn't there something to invert the case of a string? 16:45:34 I guess not. 16:45:47 no. the macro just lowers everything, but the problem is that incoming RPC invocations are case-sensitive 16:45:58 and the keys in the hash-table are not, so no matches are found for some methods 16:46:37 aggieben: Uh, yeah, you'll need to use |...|. I was misunderstanding. 16:46:52 too bad SBCL doesn't have a modern-mode like allegro 16:47:11 clhs *readtable-case* 16:47:12 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:47:12 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for *readtable-case*. 16:47:13 tcr: are you saying that the code is illegal? 16:47:16 clhs *readtable* 16:47:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_rdtabl.htm 16:48:18 adeht: Yes 16:48:32 -!- avdi [n=avdi@216.230.102.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:48:40 aggieben: All modern mode does is to preserve case, right? 16:48:44 adeht: "If nested type declarations refer to the same variable, then the value of the variable must be a member of the intersection of the declared types. " 16:48:49 clhs type 16:48:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_type.htm 16:48:55 tcr: the type declarations are not nested 16:49:35 -!- bpt_ [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:49:54 I assume that this paragraph is referring to nesting of a type declaration within the scope of another type declaration 16:51:11 aggieben: Actually, now that I think about it, what I would probably do is to provide the symbol naming the function and the string naming the function seperately. 16:51:31 adeht: You could argue that (let ((x foo)) ...) is equivalent to (let ((x foo)) (declare (type t x)) ...) 16:51:37 aggieben: Something like this: (defmacro defun-json-rpc ((name string-name) lambda-list &body body) ...) 16:51:46 -!- rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [] 16:51:50 tcr: that was my argument 16:52:02 Aankhen``: that's exactly what the "export-as-json-rpc" function does 16:52:04 cmatei [n=cmatei@vimes.rndsoft.ro] has joined #lisp 16:52:05 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-109-102.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:20 aggieben: Ah, I didn't see that. 16:52:30 tcr: yes, you could argue that.. but then again, I say that type declarations don't have anything to do with a _variable's type_ 16:52:36 maybe I can do this the other way around though. Maybe name should be a string. Can I defun a function in a macro from a string? 16:52:54 You can use READ-FROM-STRING. 16:53:10 awesome 16:53:13 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-132-215.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:53:14 that's the trick then 16:53:22 Heya, folks. I'm currently looking into weblocks - unfortunately, he seems to ignore the steps outlined in the "Getting Started" guide. 16:53:24 Do you use the function generated outside of the JSON RPC stuff, though? 16:53:31 no 16:53:33 tcr: they also take scoping into their meaning 16:53:39 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:53:47 I mean, why not simply add the function to the hash with a string naming it? 16:53:54 adeht: I agree with you 16:54:30 tcr: so you could say that within this scope, there is a promise to store values of that type in that variable 16:54:35 Aankhen``: the point of this exercise is to have the declaration look as much like a regular defun as possible. If I'm going to do all that, I would rather just (defun foo ...) (export-as-json-rpc ...) 16:55:04 I.e.: I try the "out-application" example, but hunchentoot doesn't find the page under the given prefix. 16:55:06 Aankhen``: so I might use this: (read-from-string (format nil "|~a|" "blah")) 16:55:09 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:55:12 aggieben: Why make different things look similar? 16:55:22 aggieben: (defmacro define-function (arg) `(defun ,(get-function-name arg) ,(get-function-args arg) ,(get-function-body arg))) (define-function "function toto (input a:integer,output s:string) is return a+s.length end") 16:55:44 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:00 tcr: (better wording is possible.. a promise that only values of this type are and will be stored within that scope) 16:56:02 My position that a type constraint on values of a variable is indistinguishable from a type constraint on the variable, and that I have not seen legal code showing otherwise. 16:56:33 dlowe: did you miss my example? 16:56:42 The example given by adeht is invalidated by "At the moment the scope of the declaration is entered, the consequences are undefined if the value of the declared variable is not of the declared type. " 16:56:49 Aankhen``: that's not an invalid point. I have thought about just having one module with the defuns and another with just a bunch of (export-as-json-rpc) expressions 16:57:01 matimago: I have no idea what that is 16:57:03 NorthStar [i=email@89.180.135.172] has joined #lisp 16:57:15 aggieben: But why bother with the DEFUNs, since you said you don't use those functions except in the JSON RPC stuff? 16:57:20 WTF? Bug 421 has nothing to do with windows console. 16:57:28 according to my interpretation (and of course, I may be wrong!) that code may be just fine if I know exactly what something returns and take that into account when deciding which (if any) function to call 16:57:29 Since there is no intersection between the two types, undefined consequences are unavoidable with the example as given 16:57:41 adeht: in which case, the type of the variable is T 16:57:43 Aankhen``: huh? what do you mean "why bother with DEFUN"? 16:57:51 dlowe: The two declarations do not refer to each other. 16:57:59 tcr: Got a sec? 16:58:17 -!- NorthStar is now known as X-Scale 16:58:24 dlowe: heh.. so is it T or NIL? 16:58:33 aggieben annotated #73237 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73237#1 16:58:53 mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has joined #lisp 16:58:59 nyef: I'll take a shower now. I'll read backlog afterwards. 16:59:20 -!- dfox__ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:59:22 adeht: "The type t is a supertype of every type, including itself" 16:59:22 adeht: nil, because declaring something tells you that nothing broader then that variable will be stored 16:59:24 tcr: I'll wait, unless nikodemus or someone else wants to jump in. 16:59:27 aggieben: "Can I defun a function in a macro from a string?" This macro shows how you can define a funtion in a macro from a string. 16:59:27 dlowe: why do you even need to introduce a "variable's type" in this case? there's no such thing 16:59:33 aggieben: I mean, why not say this instead: (defmacro define-json-rpc-function (name lambda-list &body body) `(export-as-json-rpc #'(lambda ,lambda-list ,@body) ,name)) 16:59:36 <_sana> there is a function to compare two lists for equality ? 16:59:41 madnificent: cite from the CLHS please 16:59:44 nyef: What's your question? 16:59:45 adeht: consistency 17:00:00 dlowe: with what? 17:00:04 matimago: ah. I really just mean for the function name to be a string. Thanks though. 17:00:06 Has to do with the "READ-CHAR-NO-HANG and windows console" thing. 17:00:09 _sana: EQUAL 17:00:11 dlowe: No, adeht's argumentation is very consistent. 17:00:22 nyef: I don't think I can be of any help. 17:00:24 Aankhen``: oh, ok. 17:00:28 adeht: "variables don't have types unless declared otherwise" is less consistent than "variables with undeclared types are of type T" 17:00:30 Aankhen``: yeah, that might work fine 17:00:34 aggieben: then: `(defun ,(intern name) (...) ...) 17:00:36 Turns out that it's not the windows console that's the problem, and that I have had a proof-of-concept fix since Oct 15 2007. 17:00:40 adeht: for I know the spec by the word -_- 17:00:53 (Yes, at least two and a half months before it was reported.) 17:00:56 nyef: Register to launchpad, add a comment. 17:01:01 dlowe: like I said, type declaration don't say anything about "variable type" 17:01:11 matimago: He doesn't seem to need the DEFUN at all. 17:01:12 how can one write a case/ecase where the keys are +some-constant-numbers+ ? (case x (+a+ (print "a"))) seems to look at +a+ as a symbol 17:01:13 madnificent: I don't, so please be kind and cite 17:01:14 adeht: They do. In the case of _bound_ type declarations 17:01:16 Aankhen``: yes, that will work best, because that avoids the whole issue of symbols not being case-sensitive. 17:01:25 matimago: His aim is to get a function into a hashtable. 17:01:25 adeht: and I am not kind today :P 17:01:27 Aankhen``: thanks. I don't know why that hadn't occurred to me. 17:01:27 adeht: You're right about _free_ type declarations 17:01:33 tcr: Fair enough. 17:01:38 aggieben: NP. 17:01:48 adeht: no, I just can't find a bloody thing in that spec. Never could. I only look up symbols in there 17:01:55 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:02:06 dfox__ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 17:03:18 tcr: you are right that the effect may be the same as if you add types to variables and constrain the variable in that case 17:03:37 Aankhen``: still need the | escape though :-(* 17:03:41 tcr: but this still fits with my language of promises and value types 17:03:45 aggieben: Why? 17:03:48 the only part of the argument where any disagreement is on, is whether or not the fact that a binding that 'is' of a certain type, makes the symbol when representing that binding 'of' a certain type. I think. 17:04:00 oh, no wiat....name was going to be a string now, that's right 17:04:02 aggieben: Aren't you giving it a string as a name? 17:04:04 tcr: so I don't need to introduce variable types 17:04:05 :-) 17:04:39 adeht: You do need. 17:04:57 tcr: oh? 17:05:26 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 17:06:08 adeht: Ah, well, I'll think this through in the shower. 17:06:11 that being a dispute about wording, more than meaning, there isn't really any real argument to be given. SO, I'll just accept that I was right, and I will let _sana accept that micro-explanation I gave him :P 17:06:20 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:06:38 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:06:39 -!- Cronos [n=a@5ad41138.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:06:43 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:47 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:07:14 -!- Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-4385222.home.otenet.gr] has quit [] 17:07:37 madnificent: I don't think it's wholly about wording.. otherwise I wouldn't bother arguing 17:08:01 <_sana> madnificent: :) 17:08:37 anyone here tried writing a disassembler in LISP? 17:08:41 I think it mostly means that if adeht and I were to implement a lisp compiler, they would have differently implemented type systemes 17:08:57 adeht: in effect we agree that a symbol itself doesn't have a type. But that a symbol, when representing a variable can contain a binding of a certain type, right? 17:10:04 a symbol is of type symbol 17:10:11 *aggieben* was wondering about that 17:10:39 madnificent: you're just shifting words.. bindings don't have types either 17:11:13 i'll take it as no :D 17:11:34 adeht: (let ((*x* 42)) (declare (special *x*)) (declare (fixnum *x*)) (foo))), where foo uses *x* that is not in scope of the declaration but is still constrained 17:11:47 S1100100` [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 17:12:16 adeht: (this can also be an example for a case of nested type declarations) 17:12:26 Aankhen``: cool. I definitely like that solution. It's a slight shame that the function names have to be given as strings, but that's otherwise quite nice 17:12:26 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:01 archangelpetro: try to specify it better, it is kind of broad (for lisp itself, or for other languages)? 17:13:40 aggieben: Kewl. 17:13:52 tcr: special variables have indefinite scope 17:14:10 dnm [n=dnm@105.sub-75-198-154.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 17:14:14 madnificent: specficially has anybody written a PE file disassembler, for x86 architecture :) 17:15:51 archangelpetro: I certainly haven't, but if you ask something like that, add the question for any related info. You're bound to get some clues here some time of the day. Have you searched cliki.net for any related projects? 17:15:53 lisp already has #'disassemble .... is this what you are wanting? 17:16:59 -!- anekos is now known as awayekos 17:17:36 tsuru: where woul di find more information about waht exactly #'disassemble means? 17:18:01 unless, u mean a channel, in which case .. i retract my question and extend embarassment 17:18:59 avdi [n=avdi@216.230.102.194] has joined #lisp 17:19:32 tsuru: I think archangelpetro meant dissasembling standalone binaries 17:19:42 archangelpetro: it is the function disassemble .... at the REPL you can do soemthing like (disassemble #'+) ... 17:19:56 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 17:19:59 mib_iren5v [i=18504046@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4e613a409d76f8f4] has joined #lisp 17:20:23 archangelpetro: I remember a friend from another irc network writing a dissasembler in CL. 17:20:31 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:42 mulander: is the code availabel? 17:20:42 archangelpetro: but I would have to double check this information 17:20:45 ah D: 17:21:10 no worries, i was more curious about if it were possible... I have a very naive view of LISP and dont quite understand its capabilities yet 17:21:21 <_8david> in order to implement the function mentioned by tsuru, almost every Lisp implementation comes with a disassembler for the ISA it uses. Just check the source of, say, SBCL. 17:21:23 tcr: I haven't thought thoroughly about how your example should be interpreted.. but it may be possible that in foo, *x* can be rebound to, say, a string, as long as it is exited with a fixnum 17:22:09 _8david: i think perhaps i should read more, since i didn't really understand what you just said ;) heheh 17:23:14 _8david: I believe that archangelpetro wants to dissasemble files compiled with gcc/haskell etc. That produce os specific executable files. 17:23:38 i.e. dumping a gcc compiled exec. into asm 17:23:43 arbscht: am I right? 17:23:55 arbscht: sorry was supposed to be archangelpetro :) 17:24:37 mulander: yes, much like objdump -d or IDApro 17:25:18 -!- mib_iren5v [i=18504046@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4e613a409d76f8f4] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 17:26:41 I know it may be overly sentimental, but i do appreciate the help you guys are offering, and the pleasantness in which you are doing so... I'll dread the day I return to ##C :D 17:27:28 archangelpetro: have you tried EFnet? that place was horrible. Full of pretenders who wanted to be mean just to make themselves look like a snooty guru 17:27:42 archangelpetro: meanwhile, all the people with any real knowledge flooded over to freenode 17:28:01 i read bash.org and therefore wisely avoid Efnet 17:28:19 archangelpetro: If you want to know why people got confused when You asked about dissasembling then try this in Your lisp: (defun square (n) (* n n)) and follow it with (disassemble 'square) 17:29:37 mulander: ah 17:29:40 archangelpetro: in my case running this in sbcl returns the assembly that my square definition got compiled into 17:29:54 sbcl? 17:29:56 archangelpetro: I think that some other implementation may return byte-code (in example clisp) 17:30:05 i ran from clisp 17:30:12 archangelpetro: sbcl (Steel Bank Common Lisp) is just another CL implementation. 17:30:19 minion: tell archangelpetro about sbcl 17:30:20 archangelpetro: please see sbcl: Steel Bank Common Lisp is an open source / free software Common Lisp implementation. http://www.cliki.net/sbcl 17:30:48 <_sana> is there in lisp a function that can liniarize a list ? 17:30:56 ok, ill brb, thanks :D 17:30:58 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:31:02 archangelpetro: but I think most would agree that starting a disassembler project on the level of IDApro in CL before being familiar with CL is a little .... too much 17:31:09 <_sana> for example from '(1 (2 (3 4))) to obtain '(1 2 3 4) 17:31:30 _sana: we call that "flattening" a list... 17:31:37 tsuru: I think archangelpetro wanted to know if it is 'possible' and reasonable to do it in CL. Am I right archangelpetro? 17:31:43 _sana: writing 'FLATTEN' is on of the first excercises usually given to a new lisp programmer. 17:31:51 _sana: write it yourself! :) 17:32:12 _sana: and become better for it! :D 17:32:26 <_sana> tsuru: thanks, i will 17:32:41 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:33:13 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@vimes.rndsoft.ro] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:33:15 hopefully it won't be written on APPEND 17:33:25 cmatei [n=cmatei@vimes.rndsoft.ro] has joined #lisp 17:35:44 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:35:48 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 17:36:33 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:37:11 mulligan [n=user@e178043114.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:38:01 rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-59-196.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 17:38:12 tcr: I think this paragraph shows very clearly that type declarations don't say anything about variables without regard to scope: 17:38:15 "The meaning of a type declaration is equivalent to changing each reference to a variable (var) within the scope of the declaration to (the typespec var), changing each expression assigned to the variable (new-value) within the scope of the declaration to (the typespec new-value), and executing (the typespec var) at the moment the scope of the declaration is entered." 17:39:48 and the detail of having a declaration in the same scope as the scope where the variable is introduced is an accidental one 17:41:36 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-76-208.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 17:42:54 -!- elurin [n=user@85.96.235.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:43:05 elurin [n=user@85.96.235.121] has joined #lisp 17:43:26 Cronos [n=a@5ad4f72e.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 17:43:31 adeht: Sorry I've been in the shower 17:45:21 adeht: The paragraph does always say "within the scope of the declaration"; but the scope of bound declarations affecting a special variable is the lexical scope as if the variable was not special 17:45:27 from a language point of view, I don't see that variables have types.. I certainly agree that from an implementation point of view it may be useful to deduce such constraints about variables 17:45:35 adeht: Hence my example 17:45:52 hmmm .. something's up with RANDOM when one spawn threads .. i think it is copying the very initial state of *RANDOM-STATE* .. this seem to be a bordeaux-threads problem ... 17:46:10 (recent change has been done in how it deals with specials it seems) 17:46:23 lnostdal: This is to be expected. 17:47:18 Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has joined #lisp 17:47:22 i dunno .. having (bt:make-thread (lambda () (format t "~A~%" (random 1000)))) suddenly return the same value each time certainly was a surprise to me 17:47:31 or print 17:47:43 It is, but it makes sense from a certain point of view. 17:47:51 It's well discussed in c.l.l. 17:47:56 ..and something which did not happen before 17:48:16 Hi, sbcl friends. Is there a way to avoid landing in ldb even if it was compiled with :sb-ldb? 17:48:24 <_sana> can anyone help me with a list API ? 17:48:26 tcr: I'm not sure I understand your point.. are you saying that within foo I shouldn't store a non-fixnum in *x*? 17:48:42 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:19 adeht: In my example the use of *x* in FOO is not in the scope of the FIXNUM declaration but is still constrained by it 17:49:57 <_8david> Xach: see the source of DISABLE-DEBUGGER, I think. It calls disable_lossage_handler(). 17:50:04 tcr: according to the CLHS? 17:50:07 lnostdal: I don't think this is something bordeaux-thread can do about (in the general case) 17:50:07 <_sana> nvm, i found :D 17:50:23 adeht: yeah 17:50:43 hrm, if I try to inspect the value of a variable in sldb but the debugger only goes away with ;Evaluation aborted it means that variable doesn't exist where I'm trying to see it? 17:50:51 _8david: thanks, i'll look... 17:50:52 tcr: do you have any reference? 17:50:52 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:50:58 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has left #lisp 17:51:07 adeht: 3.3.4 17:51:23 adeht: sixth paragraph 17:51:38 ah 17:52:37 yes, it explicitly says that declarations may affect bindings 17:53:03 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:57 clhs directory 17:53:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dir.htm 17:54:51 is it not a bit more reasonable that a newly created thread has somewhat equal state or "mode of operation" (whatever) as its parent? 17:55:30 tcr: I'll need some time to internalize this.. thanks 17:55:50 any sbcl dev want to hear my wrath WRT directory returning NIL when it can't print the filename of a file that should be returned by DIRECTORY? 17:56:46 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 17:56:53 -!- younder [i=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 17:57:54 is there any search interfaces for sbcl-devel? 17:58:00 :) 17:58:01 are there? 17:58:05 <_8david> search.gmane.org 17:58:08 gmane 17:58:08 nabble 17:58:10 ah yes of course! 17:58:15 adeht: You could perhaps argue that references of *x* in FOO are not constrained by fixnum. But enough lawyering for today! 17:59:10 yes, enough lawyering ;) 18:00:46 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-155d847b76890aa0] has joined #lisp 18:01:43 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.145.143] has joined #lisp 18:03:13 -!- Cronos [n=a@5ad4f72e.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 18:05:32 rtra_ [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 18:07:30 lnostdal: Actually there's something fishy going on 18:08:19 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178043114.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:08:58 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 18:09:24 well, yes .. it is very nasty and a surprising from a security point .. but maybe i'm an idiot for trusting how special variables are dealt with etc. .. i read the 3 points in the sbcl docs. a long time ago and thought i could "trust" how these things would work as they where somewhat universal or defacto rules; even if now have chosen to use bordeaux-threads .... i dunno 18:09:32 and surprising* 18:10:03 if i now* .. damnit .. my engrish is badder than usual .. x) 18:11:44 -!- ksergio [n=sgarcia@mail.nuecho.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:11:58 -!- ramki [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:12:04 this one http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Special-Variables.html#Special-Variables 18:12:13 ..the first point suddenly does not seem true 18:15:47 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:10 ksergio [n=sgarcia@mail.nuecho.com] has joined #lisp 18:18:16 does anyone have the "Episode 2: (Re)writing Reddit in Lisp in 20 minutes and 100 lines" screencast in another format then .mov? 18:19:35 mulander: vlc will play .mov 18:19:40 and various things will transcode it 18:19:40 *drewc* hugs stumpwm 18:20:05 mikesch [n=axel@tmo-096-246.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 18:20:44 lnostdal: also s/i/I/ 18:21:03 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:21:05 rsynnott: getting vlc on SLED doesn't seem so straightforward. And this pc belongs primarly to my fiance - I don't want to make the system less stable 18:21:30 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:21:44 rsynnott: hard to convert/play anything without proper codecs - and also not installing anything that might produce licensing issues. 18:22:24 billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:01 never mind, found media-convert.com 18:24:42 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:25:38 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-76-208.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:26:26 rsynnott: depends on what's inside the .mov no? 18:26:32 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:27:53 -!- elurin [n=user@85.96.235.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:29:54 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 18:31:13 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@120.pool85-54-87.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 18:31:33 luis: well, I suppose so, yes 18:31:52 Jabberwockey: Are you still having weblocks trouble? 18:32:08 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@120.pool85-54-87.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:32:40 rlpowell: Yes. 18:32:50 hrm, how are you supposed to use the result of compute-effective-method exactly? Here www.doc.gold.ac.uk/~mas01cr/talks/2008-05-23%20Bordeaux/specializers.pdf there's generate-effective-method-function, which is exactly what I'd like, but that does not seem to exist anywhere else. 18:32:50 I may be able to help. 18:33:05 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 18:33:29 user_ [n=user@p54923DB6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:32 rlpowell: That would be grand :) Anyhow. I installed weblocks and all its dependencies. Once I try to define a new app and reset weblocks, it doesn't show the new prefix. 18:33:57 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:58 -!- mikesch [n=axel@tmo-096-246.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [] 18:34:03 Are you using one of the demos, or doing your own fresh code? 18:34:03 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:34:07 rlpowell: I tried generating an app and reloading sbcl, but it still refuses to load the example page. 18:34:23 rlpowell: Fresh, in the latter case. 18:34:34 Ah. Did you use clbuild to get weblocks, by any chance? 18:34:37 rlpowell: But still he forwards the page to weblocks-default 18:34:59 No, I checked out the hg repository 18:35:06 And asdf-installed the dependencies 18:35:11 OK. may still be the same problem, though. Sec. 18:35:18 xan: yeah, it's tricky. I can give you a simple generate-effective-method-function that mostly works 18:35:27 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk63.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 18:35:35 You used the "Creating a New Project" stuff on http://trac.common-lisp.net/cl-weblocks/wiki/UserManual#BreakingtheIce , yeah? 18:35:46 Yes 18:35:52 Yeah. 18:36:04 Buggy? 18:36:23 It should have generated foo.lisp in the main directory. 18:36:28 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:36:32 It did 18:36:33 Please paste all of defun start-foo from there. 18:36:52 Which hg repo did you use? If it's still in the real repo, I need to report that. 18:37:04 Krystof, that would be great, although I'm wondering if I'm just approaching this the wrong way. Basically I need to compute the result of calling a generic function just from the class name for a macro, where I don't have any instance, so I'm using a bunch of MOP functions to do that. Is that totally insane? 18:37:05 Because, *damn*, the fucking example code should work out of the box. :P 18:38:54 xan: yes 18:39:02 <_8david> xan: I've got a somewhat functional library for extensible specializer. It's also approaching various things the wrong way, but might help. 18:39:11 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:17 <_8david> Krystof: wasn't there a mail exchange with Pascal on how to get things right? I can't find it. 18:39:32 Jabberwockey pasted "weblocks-generated file" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73244 18:39:38 Krystof, I guessed so. Any pointer to a sane solution would be really welcome :) 18:39:46 rlpowell: if it's dev in my stable, it won't work; my stable is still pre-big merge, and skypher's should be used if any 18:39:52 rlpowell: stable 18:40:02 -!- S1100100` is now known as S11001001 18:40:03 _8david: I think the mail exchange's conclusion was that you can't without a code walker 18:40:25 xan: no, it's your desire to compute the result of calling a gf based only on a class name at macroexpansion time that's insane 18:40:27 Jabberwockey: so, how about it? 18:40:28 not how you're going about it 18:40:31 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:41:41 S11001001: http://www.bitbucket.org/skypher/weblocks-stable/ <- I did use that one 18:42:26 Jabberwockey: you need one more thing: where's your init-user-session function? 18:42:53 Ah, yes, it's generated in the src-directory 18:43:47 Jabberwockey annotated #73244 with "The init-user-session" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/73244#1 18:43:57 Krystof, right, so what I'm doing is blacklisting slots for an operation with a generic function "mark-slots" with 'append' method combination, but I also need that list for the macro where I don't have any instance. So the best solution would be to not do this with a gf and just construct the class precedence list manually? 18:43:59 is this expected on os x leopard ? 18:44:00 http://paste.lisp.org/display/73245 18:44:09 with sb-thread enabled 18:44:13 -!- djuba [n=vp@host89-251-107-24.hnet.ru] has left #lisp 18:44:37 oh, okay 18:45:58 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:46:13 I see the problem now 18:46:21 -!- billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:47:47 -!- user_ [n=user@p54923DB6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:48:10 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:48:10 Ian changed things around in the templates in r707 18:48:19 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:48:19 removing autostart without adding the start/stop commands 18:48:31 Krystof, anyway if you can put the code in pastebin or something, if it mostly works it will probably be enough, this is not too complex 18:48:44 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-59-196.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.14/2008120416]"] 18:50:26 Jabberwockey: pull from stable and look at hg diff -r-2 -r-1 to see what to do 18:50:46 now to work out a nice forward-merge onto dev... 18:50:50 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:51:10 cliffr [n=canuck11@d75-155-181-141.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:00 moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 18:52:21 S11001001: Thanks, he's pulling... 18:52:46 hope he didn't clone again :) 18:53:02 I guess it's clbuild anyway 18:56:40 "POST fell through ECASE expression. Wanted one of (WEBSTREAM::POST GET)" 18:56:59 Does that mean it wants either webstream::post or cl-user::get? Or should both be in the webstream package? 18:57:24 Jabberwockey: Add (start-webapp 'foo) after start-weblocks, and (stop-webapp 'foo) before stop-weblocks. 18:57:27 Should fix it. 18:58:02 koning_r1bot: the former, if the current package is cl-user 18:58:08 uroboros [n=mjf@r9fk63.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 18:59:02 koning_r1bot: you may want to use keywords here, instead 18:59:24 Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has joined #lisp 18:59:57 Well that's really really weird. All I do is (ecase (get (...)) (post (...))), how can it expect one to be in a different package? 19:00:03 Ahh... getting intermittent errors when doing couchDB queries. Turns out couchDB is fine it's the cl-couch library that's a problem. Run the drakma call to grab the page myself and it works fine, so it's somewhere in how cl-couch processes the data I think.. 19:00:14 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:26 Yeah I guess I should... but then I'm tempted to use keywords _everywhere_... 19:00:40 koning_r1bot: well, the cl package exports `get', and the webstream package inherits that symbol 19:00:41 Use them where it makes sense. 19:00:53 hmm... why the heck would I get "Class not yet defined: CLIM-INTERNALS::TOP-LEVEL-SHEET-PANE" when asdf:load'ing mcclim? 19:03:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 19:03:35 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-150.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:03:36 Ohhww.. that's right... geez, I had been looking for the cause of this problem for over a week... 19:04:04 one real-life week -> 5 mins in #lisp 19:04:37 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:05:17 yeah, but I wanted to figure it out myself... how hard can it be, right? 19:08:01 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-167-246-74.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:08:15 user_ [n=user@p54923DB6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:49 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:11:53 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.169.62] has quit ["Induhvidual Quote: “In the bottom of the line...”"] 19:14:36 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:27 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:18:29 Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has joined #lisp 19:18:56 Hello again, sbcl friends. Can you suggest a way to trigger an ldb-entering crash? 19:19:06 I would like to test my ldb-disabling. 19:19:24 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:19:28 Xach! You're missed! (how about a loop that conses many amny bytes?) 19:20:10 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 19:20:20 But I'm right here? Thanks, I'll try it. 19:20:24 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:20:38 I meant to say "Welcome back!" 19:21:30 http://pastebin.com/m3a0361c8 Well, I'm using that in the end, does the trick I guess 19:22:50 tic: so far that has managed to slowly bog down my computer, but i don't want to wait for it to thrash and possibly die. i'll probably try something else instead. 19:23:00 Xach, bummer. :/ 19:23:17 Xach: try to limit sbcl heap? 19:23:31 -!- runenes [n=runenes@proxy-gw.uib.no] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:24:20 sbcl --dynamic-space-size 40 (make-list 300000) => welcome ldb! 19:24:37 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@120.pool85-54-87.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:24:39 stassats`: does that really work? 19:24:44 Xach: yep 19:24:45 just tried 19:24:55 thanks 19:27:07 thanks indeed, that suggests to me my ldb disabling will work fine. 19:27:37 *Xach* is on a system that doesn't have a working C compiler, and wants to just use the sbcl.org binaries with ldb disabled 19:27:50 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has left #lisp 19:28:00 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 19:28:24 hey, welcome back xan 19:28:38 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 19:28:41 gottesmm_ [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 19:31:36 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-e64465b25000c3d6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:33:34 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-76-208.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 19:33:34 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-b41549e1f0410ab5] has joined #lisp 19:35:42 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-146.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 19:36:03 I typed xach wrong AND I was too late. Coffee it is 19:37:10 ba 19:37:11 k 19:37:20 madnificent: are you at work? 19:37:51 I should be, but you are free to ask questions in this channel, and I might not be able to resist to answer them (but I'm doing my best!) 19:40:11 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:44:19 b4 [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:45:15 archangelpetro: and work is study for the moment :) 19:45:35 abbe [i=Bouvier@cemetry.of.chateau.d.lf.at.ipv6.fbsd.in] has joined #lisp 19:45:37 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-109-102.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:45:43 what you studying? 19:45:48 Xach! 19:45:58 (mapcar #'hi everyone) 19:46:00 luis: Xach has left allready -_- 19:46:23 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:46:30 why do you put the # infront? 19:46:32 Darn. 19:46:37 when i do that in clisp i get an error 19:46:58 but ' seems to be a pointer symbol 19:47:11 archangelpetro: A study of imperative programming languages (whish there was some lisp-related course to study 19:47:20 hehe :D 19:47:24 Will Common LISP (or any other LISP dialect/derivative) be considered a pure functional programming language ? 19:47:40 common lisp, no 19:48:16 Common Lisp, not LISP 19:48:17 b^4 [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:48:22 abbe: yet it is possible to write programs in a purely functional way in it (as is possible with other non-pure languages) 19:48:33 there's clojure, which is a lisp inspired by CL, but features freedom from side-effects (except where useful) 19:48:37 There have been Lisp/Scheme variants that are pure functional languages (such as DSSSL) 19:49:07 antifuchs: so, what would the meaning of pure become? ;) (just poking) 19:49:28 antifuchs: okay 19:49:33 you could rate purity on the same scale they use for diamonds (: 19:50:14 madnificent: I'm wondering if it is the prescence of constructs like defvar, defcustom, etc. which prevents Common Lisp from being purely functional. 19:50:40 blx [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:50:52 abbe: setf is an example... whenever you can set a variable more than once, you aren't fully functional anymore 19:51:02 haha 19:51:09 -!- b4 [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:51:16 "you aren't fully functional anymore" has a very funny ring to it (: 19:51:24 abbe: which quickly translates itself to: when you have a variable, but then again, that may be interpreted wrongly 19:51:40 antifuchs: your status of planet has been revoked ;) 19:52:31 madnificent: okay, is there any proper definition of what are the pre-requsites for language to become pure-functional language ? 19:52:50 abbe: *no* side-effects whatsoever 19:53:22 abbe: think of mathematical functions, whenever you calculate something, the next time you calculate it, it will be the same. No matter what changed in the universe 19:53:24 madnificent: okay. so you'll get same output for same inputs, thats it. 19:54:48 and I think haskell doesn't fully qualify either. That is, it does, but it hides reality so that it doesn't look like it does anymore. By using monads an implicit state is given to represent the next state-of-the-world. Yet by hiding it, you are actually faking that you are not functional. I know, it does qualify as being fully functional, but it doesn't seem to be fair 19:55:05 No. 19:55:22 Haskell is purely functional. 19:55:23 abbe: AFAIK: yes. But that is for the whole state of a system. So that allso means that readline will always return the same result (there is a hack around that) ;) 19:55:34 I'm not sure what you mean by "fully function", but abbe's question was regarding purity. 19:55:43 Not "fullness", which is a property I'm not aware of. Is there a difference? 19:56:23 sbahra: yes I know it qualifies as being fully functional, but it is a dirty hack (the state-variable), which makes me feel bad. (I agree with the fact that it is fully functional though) 19:57:15 sbahra: but on antifuchs's scale, it should be less functional than a language that doesn't provide a world-state variable 19:57:19 sbahra: I don't buy taht haskell is purely functional. 19:57:25 What "state variable" madnificent? 19:58:04 *schme* is in the monads is cheating camp. 19:58:19 mvilleneuve1 [n=matthieu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:43 madnificent: then which language is pure functional language ? 19:58:51 sbahra: the io monad implicitly throws a state-variable around. That is because readline etc don't give the same result each time you call them. Throwing a state-variable around allows it to return a new result each time. Since you cannot revert to a previous state, they can have some 'side-effect-free side effect' 19:59:06 abbe: haskell before the monads were in there (and that time has existed!) 19:59:30 abbe: it qualifies as being fully functional. But it still is cheating 19:59:35 Haskell was very useless, then. 19:59:47 sbahra: true 19:59:47 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@vimes.rndsoft.ro] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:59:48 purely functional is completely useless, ya :) 19:59:55 What is the difference between "fully functional" and "purely functional"? You didn't make that distinction. 20:00:00 cmatei_ [n=cmatei@vimes.rndsoft.ro] has joined #lisp 20:00:14 cmatei [n=cmatei@85.186.180.45] has joined #lisp 20:00:24 *schme* goes back to bed. 'night people :) 20:00:24 sbahra: I mean fully 20:00:27 so a pure language will only be in mathematical world, not in real world ? 20:00:29 night schme 20:00:45 good evening 20:00:47 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@wsip-70-167-246-74.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 20:00:48 night schme. 20:01:05 abbe: It's like girls.. they're pure until you actually use 'em for something ;) 20:01:08 okay, for whatever I said, move completely and truely to be fully. I'm just on a rant 20:01:12 *schme* pops off. 20:01:14 madnificent, well, I am asking you to define for me this distinction. 20:01:17 schme: LMAO 20:01:17 madnificent, I am curious to know. 20:01:21 abbe, well, you can write things that are side-effect free, but you can do more fun things when you do. 20:01:55 the key point about Haskell is referential transpacency, with regard to its purity 20:02:27 sbahra: perhaps a distinction can be made, but I do not know of one. I can guess that someone has made it before me, so wikipedia could help you out (if it exists, tell me about it :)) 20:03:18 madnificent, Haskell is fully functional. 20:03:28 madnificent, and Haskell is "purely functional", I guess, is a better distinction. 20:05:00 -!- antoni [n=antoni@101.pool85-53-6.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:05:08 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 20:05:23 -!- b^4 [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:05:55 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:05:58 sbahra: in any case, I find it to be somewhat cheating. That is all I wanted to point out. (note that I never implied not liking haskell, nor other stateless languages (say mercury (but let me just state that I do dislike mercury))) 20:06:19 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [Client Quit] 20:06:24 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 20:10:26 -!- aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has left #lisp 20:11:05 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp372.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 20:12:15 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp372.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 20:13:17 Hmm I found a bug in cl-couch and commenting out a few lines in it's code fixes it for me. I don't know how those lines work or how to fix them but I want to help what should I do? 20:13:49 kzar: send a bug report 20:14:04 O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-90.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 20:14:22 along with the patch 20:16:11 pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:16:25 -!- Thumper_ [n=Thumper@about/essy/coffeeAddict/Thumper] has quit ["leaving"] 20:17:04 thanks everyone :) 20:17:15 Thumper_ [n=Thumper@about/essy/coffeeAddict/Thumper] has joined #lisp 20:17:17 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:17:52 -!- TDT [n=TDT@143.108.177.207.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:18:05 TDT [n=TDT@143.108.177.207.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:19 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:19:44 what could be the problem when asdf-install works just fine installing libraries which can be in-package'd , but on restar forgets about them? sbcl 1.0.24 20:20:13 manuel_ [n=manuel@krlh-4d037bb0.pool.mediaWays.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:14 you need to load the systems 20:20:21 (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :ze-system) 20:20:27 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit ["leaving"] 20:20:54 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@krlh-4d037bb0.pool.mediaWays.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:21:03 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 20:21:04 adeht: thanks a bunch. easy as that huh. 20:21:08 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 20:23:10 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 20:23:25 -!- user_ [n=user@p54923DB6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:23:33 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:23:41 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:23:53 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:55 -!- Thumper_ [n=Thumper@about/essy/coffeeAddict/Thumper] has left #lisp 20:24:28 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:49 Thumper_ [n=Thumper@about/essy/coffeeAddict/Thumper] has joined #lisp 20:26:36 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 20:27:29 Question: How much harm would be done if call-next-method and next-method-p were in effect special forms: that is, they could only be called directly and did not refer to a first-class function? 20:29:12 Are there substantial hacks that are made possible because these functions are first-class? 20:29:42 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:12 mvatki [n=michael@68-115-221-224.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:33:30 -!- mvatki [n=michael@68-115-221-224.static.spbg.sc.charter.com] has left #lisp 20:34:37 Except for n-ary generics, no, because one can always write (LAMBDA (X Y Z ...) (CALL-NEXT-METHOD X Y Z ...)). 20:34:56 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:36:01 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:06 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx07476.centeva.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:15 ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 20:38:58 jcowan: conversely: since one can write what Riastradh showed, there is little point in making it visibly a special form (especially as it is specified to be a function); if there is nice compiler magic to be done, do it transparently 20:39:29 Oh, and "The function call-next-method has lexical scope and indefinite extent." 20:40:04 (though I wonder if anyone's made use of that) 20:40:19 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-241.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:40:20 (for that matter, has anyone ever done call-next-method more than once?) 20:41:14 Well, that's what I'm asking; does anyone make use of that. 20:41:50 What I should have asked is: how much harm &etc. if c-n-p and n-m-p could only be invoked within the dynamic extent of the method in which they appear? 20:42:32 jcowan: can they be called elsewhere? 20:42:34 What benefit would that restriction bring? 20:42:45 jcowan: well, that's a very different question :-) 20:42:54 Riastradh: and what downside (but then again, that is his question, I believe) 20:43:23 The benefit is implementation-specific 20:43:26 Any downside is irrelevant if there is no upside. 20:43:36 There is an upside for me as implementer. 20:44:11 madnificent: Whether they can be called elsewhere depends on whether "they" refers to the identifiers or the functions bound to that identifier. 20:44:51 If there is no practical downside for the user, I'm willing to say that I don't support that feature. 20:45:10 I'm curious: what is the benefit? 20:45:12 -!- ken_p [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:01 jcowan: they being c-n-m and n-m-p 20:46:09 jcowan: note that there is a specific reason for c-n-m to be a function: so that you can APPLY it. 20:46:36 user_ [n=user@p54924D51.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:57 clhs call-next-method 20:46:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_call_n.htm 20:47:39 (defmethod walk-frobbotzim ((frotz compound-frotz)) (walk-collection (frotz-components frotz) (lambda (simple-frotz) (call-next-method simple-frotz)))) 20:47:40 all of my own uses of call-next-method are boring; I just checked 20:47:50 Suppose WALK-COLLECTION is a generic. 20:47:55 Ah, this is one of the places where ISLisp is less general than CL: it allows only the zero-argument form, so APPLYing it is not useful. 20:47:56 -!- blx [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has left #lisp 20:48:02 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-124.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 20:48:25 ...ah. 20:48:40 Disregard my example, then. 20:49:27 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-146.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 20:50:03 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.193.94] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:50:28 The benefit is that I don't have to have magic machinery that closes over the method arguments. 20:51:12 `Magic machinery' such as LAMBDA? 20:51:17 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:06 -!- willb is now known as willb-commute 20:52:23 Well and good if the names of the method arguments have not been shadowed. 20:53:28 -!- moocow [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:54:11 (flet ((call-next-method () (funcall the-next-method foo bar baz))) ...)? 20:57:30 antoni [n=antoni@99.pool85-53-24.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 20:57:51 Fair enough; I could do a prescan to see if c-n-m is called first, I guess. 20:59:14 The whole vexed business of mapping ISLisp method dispatch so as to take as much advantage as possible of Java method dispatch is the main conceptual roadblock I still have. (The other one was conditions.) 20:59:22 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:59:30 jcowan: why not just add the flet? A somewhat decent compiler could romeve it when it is not used... ( I might be missing the point ) 20:59:58 My compiler is notoriously indecent. 21:00:15 two reasons- novelty and praticality. I only carry one knife 21:00:28 aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has joined #lisp 21:00:55 prxq [n=mommer@X9b85.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 21:01:00 -!- user_ [n=user@p54924D51.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:01:16 ww, if it isn't obvious 21:02:19 It actually seemed kind of appropriate to madnificent's question 21:02:45 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:49 I too try to carry as few knives as possible, partly because JVM JITs optimize stupid code better than smart code. 21:03:33 heh. 21:05:48 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:05:52 hmm seems like the cl-typesetting examples have problems running with my configuration 21:05:53 :/ 21:06:35 jcowan: which compiler would that be? 21:06:43 -!- X-Scale [i=email@89.180.135.172] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:06:53 I mean the one you're referring to as "yours" 21:07:08 sbcl 1.0.23 21:07:16 jcowan: have you looked at Clojure? 21:07:16 + cvs slime 21:07:29 actually only 2 problems atm. 21:08:05 one with decoding ocet sequence (233 114 105) 21:08:16 this is on compile time 21:08:44 and a 'is not a binary output stream' simple-type-error on business-card1 example 21:09:14 -!- willb-commute [n=wibenton@wireless107.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:10:59 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 21:13:17 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb517f.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:15:53 -!- abbe [i=Bouvier@cemetry.of.chateau.d.lf.at.ipv6.fbsd.in] has quit [] 21:16:55 bit` [n=bit@c-67-171-211-187.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:35 ehu: the ISLisp compiler I am writing 21:17:43 kpreid: Yes. Very interesting indeed. 21:18:06 what is ISLisp? is that different than Common Lisp? 21:18:34 ISLisp is why you can write LAMBDA without #'. 21:18:52 heh. 21:18:56 It is an ISO standard, and it is close to being a subset of Common Lisp. I would characterize it as an attempt to make Lisp as "compilable" as possible while still remaining Lisp. 21:19:12 clhs open 21:19:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_open.htm 21:19:20 There is much less run-time flexibility than in Common Lisp. 21:19:21 clhs etypecase 21:19:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tpcase.htm 21:19:54 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4bb5e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:19:56 jcowan: not flaming or trolling here: why would we want ISLisp instead of Common Lisp? 21:20:09 ok. but since several people are already working on lisps targetting JVMs, why spread the efforts even thinner? 21:20:37 ehu: in the hope no one finishes and lisp gets spared from the devilish thing called java? 21:20:42 one advantage of islisp is that it is small. 21:20:53 I mean, there are probably CL->JVM projects which could be very usefully contributed to (and welcoming the contribbutions) 21:21:03 ehu: This is a personal project, and ISLisp is about 10% the size of CL. 21:21:09 *stassats`* likes scheme for its smallness 21:21:16 I am decidedly not an ISLisp imperialist. 21:21:28 *ehu* wanted to say what stassats` says 21:21:33 H4ns: in terms of definition, or in terms of execution size (the core will be smaller, I guess) 21:21:49 Definition. 21:21:53 madnificent: both. it is similar to common lisp, but it does not have all the bloat. 21:21:55 The ISO standard is 133 pages including index. 21:22:01 does small mean you just need more libraries to get things done? :-) 21:22:13 Depends on what things. 21:22:20 ehu: it means that you don't have the mandatory big rucksack to begin with. 21:22:22 For some things, even CL isn't nearly enough. 21:22:28 H4ns: so it is scheme before scheme existed? or am I missing something else? 21:22:34 No, it postdates Scheme. 21:22:53 It is closer to CL than to Scheme (it is a Lisp-2, it has no call/cc, it has ILOS which is like CLOS) 21:22:55 it is lisp-2 21:23:05 http://islisp.info 21:24:24 beach [n=user@58.186.166.9] has joined #lisp 21:24:26 doesn't look all too useless... nice to know it exists 21:24:35 Good morning. 21:24:42 good morning beach 21:24:56 antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has joined #lisp 21:25:00 My implementation is called Blesity; currently there is no open-source full implementation. 21:26:03 jcowan: you mean that the first open source implementation will be built on top of java? -_- 21:26:08 jcowan: Is there a way to follow your development? 21:26:19 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 21:26:23 Oh you implement it in java? 21:26:29 madnificent: Yes 21:26:37 tcr: Eventually I'll be blogging about it 21:26:46 jcowan: still, I appreciate the efforts. 21:26:46 tcr: No, the compiler is in ISLisp. 21:26:59 Java is available in a number of different open-source forms now. 21:27:24 (One reason for using it was sheer convenience: Java has the same l2r guarantee about argument evaluation that CL does, unlike C, C++, or Scheme. 21:27:28 ) 21:27:48 re 21:27:52 I miss the context of the java connection 21:28:06 You compile to JVM bytecode? 21:28:10 X-Scale [i=email@89.180.236.189] has joined #lisp 21:28:27 ideamonk [n=ideamonk@122.167.26.58] has joined #lisp 21:28:28 hi everyone! 21:28:29 i and my friends have been reading about motion detection since past few weeks 21:28:29 done some programming in matlab too 21:28:29 any ideas on application of motion detection apart from surveillance ? 21:28:57 ideamonk: I'm afraid this is off-topic. 21:29:11 ideamonk: s/#lisp/#matlab/ ? 21:30:34 ideamonk: video compression uses motion detection too. Especially video-resizing techniques 21:30:52 I would characterize it as an attempt to make Lisp as "compilable" as possible while still remaining Lisp. 21:31:05 thanks 21:31:07 -!- ideamonk [n=ideamonk@122.167.26.58] has left #lisp 21:31:17 tcr: Currently to Java itself -- easier to debug. 21:31:20 (jcowan) 21:31:30 why would you _want_ to do that? 21:31:36 persi [n=user@242.sub-75-252-181.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 21:31:41 Want to do what, specifically? 21:31:46 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:50 compile lisp 21:31:55 good afternoon 21:32:03 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 21:32:12 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:32:25 hello fusss 21:32:29 hello fusss 21:32:53 is it true that the cond form is trivially equivalent to the if-then-elsif-if... construc in other languages? 21:32:55 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:33:06 proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has joined #lisp 21:33:22 cads: difine "trivially equivalent". 21:33:26 *define 21:33:26 cads: No, not trivially 21:33:26 cads: no 21:33:27 Why do I, or why does anyone, want Lisp compilers? The existing free-as-in-beer ISLisp system is an interpreter, and I wanted a challenge. Lisp compilers have been around since the first years of Lisp. 21:33:42 cads: those other constructs aren't typically valid expressions 21:33:52 cads: it allows you to do what if-then-elsif-elsif-elsif lets you do 21:34:12 ah, they are usually statement 21:34:14 s* 21:34:18 yes, let's compile to the jvm, which is ahm, a vm 21:34:39 mkdon: it turns out that compiled code actually runs faster than interpreted code for most interpreters and many compilers. 21:35:00 cads: May I asked why you asked this question? 21:35:04 beach: I meant trivially equivalent in the sense that one may easily and obviously map the semantics of one to the other 21:35:08 jcowan: is it fun? 21:35:15 is it possible to set sb-impl::*default-external-format* upon C-c C-k in emcs/slime ? 21:35:36 jcowan: er, and are you using an existing JVM bytecode generating library like the one in Kawa or something else, or did you reimplement? 21:35:46 maybe these questions are silly and I should just check out the code myself 21:35:50 cads: So to you, all control structures in all languages are trivially equivalent to tests and gotos? 21:36:16 beach: he meanth syntactically, I guess. 21:36:19 cads: COND has a few cousins, looks at CASE, CCASE and ECASE. if ML is a DSL for compiler construction; lisp is a language construction kit :-) I hope you realize the subtle distinction :-) 21:36:28 cads: There's more. (cond ((frob quux)) (t (frob foobar))) is equivalent to (let ((it (frob quux))) (if it it (frob foobar))) 21:36:53 beach: now add the word turing in there, and the word complete and cads should start wondering what is question was all about 21:37:31 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 21:37:34 S11001001: So far, yes. And no, I'm generating Java, not bytecode, using a Java generation library. And there is no code to look at yet, because I design before I code (old fashioned, I know, but there it is) 21:38:03 cads: Your question sounds like "my friend told me that COND is useless because it is trivially equaivalent to if-then-else, so Lisp is a studpid language for defining constructs that are useless, since they are trivially equivalent to what you can do in Java" 21:38:04 no, but p1->a1,p2->a2,p3->a3,....T->an+1 is trivially equivalent to if p1 then a1 else if p2 then a2.... else an+1 21:38:24 frankly I was wondering why mainstream languages don't use a more terse construct 21:38:25 madnificent: Most JVMs now come with JIT compilers that make machine code, some of it faster (because more is known at run time) than the output of traditional compilers. 21:38:45 you guy's don't have to be defensive, you're fucking lispers... 21:38:50 *fusss* prefers the Kenneth school of lisp punditary; bubbly and giddy enthusiasm over dry facts :-) 21:38:53 :D 21:39:15 cads: _that_ will make us defensive;) 21:39:22 Lispers are *still* bleeding because LISP 1.5 was slower than shit 30 years ago. Being told "Your language is too slow" deals a permanent psychological wound to a community. 21:39:36 s/30/40 21:39:42 cads: All modern functional languages incorporate pattern matching with pattern guards which is DESTRUCTURING-BIND, CASE, and COND on steroids. 21:39:59 jcowan: I suppose that may yield more efficient code in some cases, as GCL generates better code from source than bytecode. 21:40:37 and yet mainstream languages are stuck with if thens, though they're seeing the light 21:40:43 cads: I am just asking because such equivalence is practically useless in terms of usefulness of a construct for software-engineering reasons. 21:40:50 cads: thing is, that your question is horribly formed. It actually implies that whatever you can put in a cond of lisp, will allso have to be able to put in another language (trivially) in one interpretation. In the other, you're basically asking: is lisp turing complete? Slightly unfun to answer, isn't it? 21:40:56 I generate source because it's easier to debug, that's all; I don't really need anything you can't do directly in Java. 21:40:59 cads: I wouldn't wonder if c# contains something sane, but I have no idea. 21:41:14 yesh, like the fabulous introduction of sequence iteration to Java in 1.5 21:41:22 a revolution in expressiveness 21:41:31 *beach* goes back to working on more urgent stuff 21:41:38 madnificent, maybe the 'trivial' made it sound snobby 21:42:07 I looked at using ASM, but it's just not a win for me. 21:42:25 It would also make it hard to bootstrap the compiler. 21:42:28 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:43:13 jcowan: let's keep it with, "Java scares me". I know it (very well even), but because I was forced. It is praised for everything it is not in companies, so I'd prefer it if it weren't used for things that make it look good. An uninformed person will see it and think "java > lisp" which again gives lisp less chance to be accepted. As you see, my reasons for not liking it far from important to you, so go ahead and use it :) 21:43:41 make a retargetable compiler 21:44:03 stassats`: I'll write the compiler, you write the retargetable back end 21:44:10 shouldn't the actual JVM language be something fairly sane and low level? 21:44:26 cads: depends on what you're trying to do on the jvm if it's sane 21:44:50 I hear they're adding tail recursion optimization 21:45:01 invoke dynamic will be nice 21:45:34 and there seem to be an awful lot of nonconventional languages being build to target the jvm 21:45:53 cads: the question was fine from your point of view but really, it might be better to try to understand lisp completely. Cond is not a cornerstone as case is in some other languages. Therefore you might not need to wonder too much about it just now. (either that, or I'm misinterpreting your position in the learning process). 21:46:27 jcowan: I like stassats`'s idea 21:46:32 well I'm going to be learning autolisp for a job 21:46:49 oh, it becomes stassats`s idea, no? 21:47:00 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:47:12 it's dynamically scoped and doesn't have let bindings or macros... which really makes me sad 21:47:31 in a way though it'll be like playing with a primordial lisp 21:47:35 cads: autolisp != common lisp (this channel is actually about common lisp, but that doesn't mean it's completely useless. A bit like JavaScript vs Java) 21:47:47 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@88.pool85-49-190.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:48:10 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-109-102.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:10 cads: be happy with it, getting paid for learning is bliss 21:48:16 madnificent, i was told by a regular that lispish questions are acceptable here :D 21:48:31 and I won't ask autolisp specific questions 21:48:31 cads: seem like a fairly competent hacker, why not invest the time in a lisp book and learn everything there is to know about COND and other control structures? you might even win :-P 21:49:03 madnificent: Other advantages are the large, if sucky, Java libraries, both standard and not; the availability of high-quality gc; the fact that lots and lots of JVM hackers are working on things like speed so I don't have to. 21:49:33 jcowan: what are you working on? a java lisp? 21:49:47 jcowan: mind you, that that is completely besides my argument 21:50:02 madnificent: Quite so. 21:50:02 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:50:09 fusss, is the prize womens? 21:50:21 fusss: No, an implementation of ISLisp which outputs Java. If I wanted Clojure, I'd know where to go for it. 21:50:26 can somone explain the meaning of #+pdf-binary (some file writing to an already open stream) #-pdf-binary. Is this supposed to change the stream type somehow on some implementations? 21:50:44 nurv101 [n=askmefor@81.193.2.111] has joined #lisp 21:50:53 hehe, anyways, thanks for hearing my question, all 21:50:56 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.48.166] has joined #lisp 21:51:00 cads: I suggest what fusss said. And you may as well ask here, I won't blame you. But perhaps it is whise to postpone questions if you ever see it is getting rather crowded here (as to avoid being flamed for no true reason). Good luck with it anyways :D 21:51:29 jcowan: ISLisp is attractively minimal. i have fantasized about making one with arabic syntax (RtL lisp with arabic keywords and utf-8 representation) 21:51:39 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:51:51 mulander: it is features, depending on its presence or absence lisp reads different code 21:51:55 clhs #+ 21:51:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 21:52:00 fusss: Interesting idea. 21:52:10 clhs 24.1.2.1 21:52:11 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/24_aba.htm 21:52:45 cads: the prize is knowing it for yourself :-) it even helps you win arguments on the internet :-P 21:53:03 questions i'm likely to ask here are likely to be questions of lisp history, or general questions like the expressiveness of dynamic scope vs lexical scope, and, I'm sure you guys'd love this one, lisp_1 vs lisp_2 vs wtf is lisp_n :D 21:53:08 *mulander* things that he found a implementation specific problem in cl-typesetting and probably found a solution 21:53:13 s/things/thinks/ 21:53:13 fusss: you want to do make an argument out of that?! (don't, please don't) 21:53:41 you know what they say about arguments on the internet... 21:53:47 willb-commute [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 21:53:50 mulander: upstream the results! 21:54:02 madnificent: i don't argue often, but it helps to know you're right, even if you have to ignore someone 21:54:18 loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has joined #lisp 21:54:28 madnificent: I would love to but I would like to understand if I am thinking correctly here 21:55:03 madnificent: there is a method write-stream-content with 2 reader directives #+pdf-binary \n s-exp #-pdf-binary \n s-exp 21:55:12 but hey, if I were building a babylisp, can you guys think of a channel more fitting than this one to get input from? 21:55:20 madnificent: I don't know if this could work on other implementations ? 21:55:27 I don't think there will be many critics of lisp left in a few years 21:55:33 fusss: I must learn to ignore people. Somehow, I simply can't accept it that people are "wrong on the internet". 21:55:44 cads: well that depends on which lisp you want to model 21:56:30 ISLisp is a Lisp-6 and Common Lisp perhaps a Lisp-12. 21:56:39 mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 21:56:45 my conclusion is that #+-pdf-binary is not understood by sbcl reader and needs to be worked around am I right? 21:57:01 cads: #compilers was nice, but it's slow traffic. generally #lisp has one of the most diverse and knowledgeable people. lisp weenies tend to be weenies of other things as well; hardware, OSes, history, lit, math, etc. 21:57:06 mulander: I have no idea whatsoever, but you may be able to try it on a few lisps... (or upstream it and say you aren't all too sure if this will work on other systems) 21:58:22 hello mooglenorph 21:58:50 madnificent: I will probably file the bug report + fix tomorrow. I will need the time to prepare an acceptable bug fix :) 21:59:41 cads: ISLisp stood for "International Standard Lisp". it was created by european lispers as a result of their exclusion from the CL standardization. it didn't take off, and McCarthy told them they couldn't call it "standard lisp", since he didn't think such beast existed. 21:59:45 mulander: I thank you for it, I'm thinking of replacing whatever I do in latex, by cl-typesetting. I'm somewhat scared to run into an insane amount of work though. 22:00:06 cads: do you know of HOPL2-uncut.pdf? sexy time! 22:00:20 hehe, I need to finish that 22:00:29 the best written draft in computer history 22:00:59 -!- willb-commute is now known as willb 22:01:29 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@81.193.2.111] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:01:43 it's funny if you think that mccarthy sought a universal axiomatization of computation when he though of lisp, to consider the idea of bad blood between different lisps 22:01:52 -!- gottesmm_ [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:01:57 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:04 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 22:02:04 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host234-206-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 22:02:08 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 22:02:27 folks, what is the right way to write lisp - is it LISP, Lisp or lisp? 22:02:35 cads: it is because common lisp is the best, and the others are not willing to accept it! ;) 22:02:46 loxs: Common Lisp ? 22:03:11 loxs: old LISP, but modern Lisp 22:03:15 :|Lisp| 22:03:18 loxs: Lisp 22:03:44 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 22:03:51 there is but one lisp and all its reflections in this world, formed by the shattered mirrors of our human minds! 22:03:52 cads: inferior-lisp (LOL! gotta love emacs) 22:03:52 ok, thanks 22:04:23 yes, emacs lisp is the one true lisp, and stallman is its patron saint 22:04:24 fusss: inferior=child process :P 22:04:34 I always write the name of the language, or language family, as Lisp (and likewise with Fortran or Algol). Specific implementations may be cased otherwise. 22:04:49 fusss: while one does have to love emacs, in this case "inferior" is a reference to their process relationship 22:05:06 and the other question is... what's the most commonly used interpreter used on linux? (I mean, which one would you suggest me to use)? 22:05:13 A holdover from ITS, I think, where the shell was a debugger. 22:05:14 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:05:44 loxs: SBCL seems to be reccommended for beginners and advanced users alike 22:05:52 loxs: bash <-: 22:06:00 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:06:03 that is, steel bank common lisp 22:06:11 loxs: interpreter, clisp, compiler, i think sbcl 22:06:20 *S11001001* posts argument about own favorite implementation and argues that the alternatives suck more 22:06:39 If you want a pure interpreter specifically, I think clisp is the obvious choice. 22:06:54 clisp has a compiler 22:06:57 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 22:07:08 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@tmo-105-137.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:07:16 but limited 22:07:26 in fact, all common lisp implementations have compilers 22:07:38 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:07:40 and what is slime? 22:07:50 lisp IDE for emacs 22:07:59 adeht: In a special sense of the term "compiler", yes. 22:08:01 loxs: slime is the thing that connects your common lisp implementation with emacs 22:08:06 if you want pure native compiler you have to rip out your modern x86 and put an old one in, etc etc 22:08:08 CLisp's compiler is a byte code compiler, no? 22:08:13 nice, then I'll take that too :) 22:08:15 jcowan: no, in the general sense 22:08:32 clhs compile 22:08:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp.htm 22:08:33 can somone confirm that sbcl opens files in binary mode only when directed with :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8) ? 22:08:47 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@2001:6f8:10f6:0:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:09:21 "The minimum semantic requirements of compilation are that it must remove all macro calls and arrange for all load time values to be resolved prior to run time." Most people don't call macroexpanders compilers. 22:09:32 jcowan: at least the versions I used compile to bytecode, but I think more recent versions use Lightning for JIT compilation to native code, too 22:09:41 *jcowan* nods. 22:10:17 i thought you had to enable lightning with a compile time option? i.e. stock binaries from sf are still bytecode compilers 22:10:26 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:10:33 you do 22:10:46 loxs: you'll probably want to use SBCL whilst learning, as it is the most popular here. So you might get better support for it here. In essense, it shouldn't matter all too much though 22:11:01 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:11:21 fuss: I wouldn't know.. I use an older version 22:11:56 blitz_ [n=julian@2001:6f8:10f6:0:21b:77ff:fe41:11ab] has joined #lisp 22:12:01 I have the book Practical Common Lisp. though it seems too "cookbook"-ish to me. Is there something similar to SICP for common lisp? 22:12:41 madnificent: clisp is great for learning, imo. not too verbose, its repl has history and completion and has faster startups. 22:12:49 loxs: SICP is more about computer science then about Scheme 22:13:08 loxs: you wouldn't be ready for PAIP, yet. 22:13:11 loxs: albeit written somewhat casually, the PCL has a lot of data in it. Don't be mistaken by the used language, it may take you sometime to fully grasp the contents 22:13:42 weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 22:13:49 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has left #lisp 22:14:03 loxs: PCL isn't a cookbook 22:14:12 what's PAIP? 22:14:29 fusss: Initially, sbcl gave me more trust. I don't know why. clisp works on more platforms (I think) 22:14:35 minion: tell loxs about paip 22:14:36 loxs: look at paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 22:14:42 know any IDE-ish mode that could automatically open asdf systmes? 22:14:45 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx07476.centeva.wayport.net] has quit [] 22:14:46 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:48 emacs, of course 22:14:51 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:14:51 that book is often quoted paip that is 22:14:56 is it just that good? 22:15:00 weirdo: open asdf systems? 22:15:50 z0d, you know like IDEs work, a treeish structure with components of a system 22:16:01 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:12 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:16:17 weirdo: Ah. 22:16:18 loxs, norvig's book is amazing, I can recommend it 22:16:26 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 22:16:26 OK, thanks folks... now it seems like I'm going to read 3 books PCL, SICP and PAIP... :) 22:16:40 i remember someone wanted to make a 3d asdf structure editor on ltk 22:16:46 weirdo: it is likely that you can run your lisp, load the systems, and "save the world".. the next time you tell your lisp to use that world (a.k.a. image) as the initial one 22:17:08 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 22:17:26 weirdo: oh, you mean something like a system browser? 22:17:35 adeht, yes 22:17:49 loxs: sicp and pcl concurrently :-) sicp tends to rot the mind in a few places. gives you a big hammer and you will run out of thumbs in the problems you face. 22:18:10 that could be an interesting emacs project, I suppose 22:19:50 and by that i mean gratuitous recursion 22:20:00 fusss, anything else? 22:20:03 ecret [n=ecret@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:20:11 i'm thinking about applying for the grammatech summer intern position 22:20:24 otherwise a superb technical work 22:20:46 syamajala: grammatech in Ithaca? woah 22:20:49 yeah 22:21:01 you guys know about them? where did they advertise? 22:21:03 (asking because I loved sicp, but did think the recursion was a bit... much, in places) 22:21:04 nurv101 [n=askmefor@81.193.2.111] has joined #lisp 22:21:04 weirdo: something for speedbar perhaps? 22:21:07 lispjobs 22:21:18 http://lispjobs.wordpress.com/2009/01/06/internship-ithaca-ny/ 22:21:36 syamajala: i applied to them in last january. ended up taking another gig after they took too long to respond. 22:22:01 it's a scheme and python shop, last i checked 22:22:07 -!- cddr [i=andy@user-544755e5.wfd87a.dsl.pol.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:11 i haven't actually taken courses in any of the stuff they are looking for 22:22:20 but i learned lisp on my own... 22:22:33 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c007h037.acad.reed.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:22:34 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@nsc.ciup.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:22:50 we autodidacts outnumber formally trained hackers, imo 22:23:06 plus i'm only a freshmen 22:23:12 madnificent: is there a bugtracker for cl-typesetting or should bugs be reported by email to the author? 22:23:13 S11001001, maybe 22:23:19 but i don't know elisp 22:23:40 syamajala: get a few citeseer papers on static analysis. anything type checking is good. 22:23:46 mulander: I never found a bugtracker for it, so I guess you should mail it 22:23:55 GT is a C compiler front-end shop. 22:24:07 madnificent: thanks, composing the email right now 22:24:08 fusss: i was considering just getting a copy of LiSP 22:25:27 syamajala: LiSP will teach you Lisp. for their particular line of work you need to grok static type checking; Lisp has dynamic type checking, and it's an easy process with tagged pointers. 22:26:17 get a few texts on graph analysis and play. i doubt you will have to maintain their flagship project. if anything, you might work in testing or something more mundane. 22:27:35 a childhood spent in a system debugger and disassembler cracking shareware games would have come even more handy :-) 22:27:48 syamajala, hey, I wanted to apply to Grammatech too. 22:28:01 -!- antares_ [n=antares_@77.108.193.227] has quit [] 22:28:20 fusss: who was that directed to? 22:28:34 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:50 archangelpetro: to the youth of today, from a disgruntled DOS programmer :-P 22:29:03 everyone? :) 22:29:36 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@195.116.35.13] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:30:19 anyone who hasn't spent more time breaking a game disk encryption than the game itself. 22:30:31 fusss, hum, I took an easy compilers class last semester. 22:30:45 fusss: i work as a security researcher, i spend a lot of my time reverse engineering, cracking/disassing/debugging etc. 22:31:04 I'm a system administrator by profession, I do the same.. 22:31:06 not quite the same as 'game cracking' 22:31:14 hm, another question from me... what's the situation with unicode in common lisp? 22:31:18 rpg [n=rpg@72.11.106.198] has joined #lisp 22:31:20 alot of old stuff has no documentation... :P 22:31:30 it breaks my heart when i see teenage programmers talking about starting companies. you haven't lived son, you haven't. spend a few years in mischief first. live a little. 22:31:43 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:43 lol 22:31:48 fusss: hippie? ;) 22:32:05 tbh im 24, and i'm about done with work i want to give it up, get rich and then spend the rest of my life learning stuff i want to 22:32:31 i'm 22, I feel the same way :P 22:32:34 loxs: utf-8 across the board. 22:32:35 I think everybody does 22:33:26 fusss, what does "across the board" mean in this case? (sorry, I am not a native speaker of the English language) 22:33:27 yea that's what I want to do too heh 22:33:28 archangelpetro: you're on the right side of computing, imo. never work on a box you can't r00t. 22:33:30 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-98-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:33:30 i think the road to that goal lies parallel with the path of lisp 22:33:33 fusss: beats wasting their time like most people do in their teenage years :) 22:33:36 loxs, it means "everywhere" 22:33:56 thanks 22:34:32 fusss: it makes me all tingly inside.. :) i prefer low-level and very high level stuff ... i don tlike the 'standard app devel' stuff 22:34:54 archangelpetro: funny thats where a lot of money is ;) 22:35:07 like researching rootkits to infect network card eeprom, and use gfx card memory as ramdisks :D 22:35:11 all fun stuff :D 22:35:55 archangelpetro: a man after my own heart 22:36:21 -!- jli [n=jli@adsl-074-229-201-181.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 22:36:33 I cracked a couple of programs before but it took me hours, really low level stuff like that is a bit of a PITA in my opinion, would rather work on stuff with lisp or whatever where you can get something working a lot faster 22:36:47 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.106.115] has joined #lisp 22:36:47 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-114-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:36:58 kzar: it gets easier as you practice 22:37:04 although on the other hand web development is a pain in the arse too so :o 22:37:11 i hate web dev 22:37:25 yea bloody ie6 etc, but a lot of the money is there 'eh? 22:37:36 i suppose :) 22:37:54 though that's cuz they just write bad code 22:37:58 when i was a pen-tester 22:38:06 we came across SOOOOOOOO many really really bad webapps 22:38:17 and watched as companies extended deadlines, budgets etc. 22:38:21 cuz the application sucked 22:38:30 Yea I have found some sql injection stuff before, one got on milw0rm which was cool. 22:38:55 tis cool :d 22:38:59 it's metal how often you see people doing a query with the POST variable inside the string directly 22:39:03 metal* 22:39:07 mental* 22:39:19 lol :) 22:39:25 i always thought the best one was 22:39:32 front page extensions 22:40:00 nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:23 haven't looked at them really 22:40:28 well 22:40:34 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:55 i was testing a 'gov' site 22:40:56 which had it enabled... and no password 22:41:09 oh dear, what does that let you do? 22:41:16 well, open season :D 22:41:35 -!- dnm [n=dnm@105.sub-75-198-154.myvzw.com] has quit [] 22:41:50 I just remembered one of the worse things I saw, recently worked at a payment processor, their password and user for their new system was their company name. It was open to the whole internet 22:42:24 hehe 22:42:47 Funny thing is people say pfft opensource because you know it might break or it migth be insecure or whatever but every place I worked had a lot worse practices so I know what I trust more 22:42:56 I knew a hotel, where you could book online. they didn't do validation, so you could send anything to them. even -100 pounds as fee 22:43:04 wo 22:43:39 hehe 22:43:44 do -100 and then set it to put 100 tab on there 22:44:41 nullwork_ [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:59 the problem with e.g. PHP is that it attracts a lot of weak programmers. also, PHP doesn't make it easy to avoid security holes. 22:46:13 yea defo 22:46:53 I hate php but it's often easy money, take crappy code make it work well 22:47:47 it's from perl. 22:47:55 kzar: PHP makes me feel raped. You have your success, but you feel very dirty and humiliated afterwards. 22:48:22 I once encountered a web application that had, among other features, a file versioning system (square-shaped, of course), so that you could download older versions of files. For some reason, they had decided to put the application code in there, too. So not only could you run old versions of their code, you could also download the source and see all of their sloppy security holes. 22:48:38 archangelpetro: Yeah, but at least Perl is powerful, if not clean 22:48:44 PHP is like BASIC 22:49:01 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:49:13 Jabberwockey: as do Java, Prolog, Smalltalk, C++, ... 22:49:44 *def_* codes php for money :( 22:49:48 Jabberwockey: Yea defo, I don't enjoy it 22:49:58 def_: whore is the word, no? 22:50:16 def_: I am kidding (just so you know) 22:50:25 madnificent: I had to start using a different engine than Steam today, because Hibernate is buggy - so I know why you included Java. 22:50:27 I dunno, at least if you're a whore you don't have incompetent colleagues to worry about :p 22:50:29 *sigh* 22:50:32 -!- mulander [n=opera@nat-4.interq.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:51:26 -!- rtra_ [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:51:48 I don't grasp what people have against whores. It is hardly any different than someone spending his day chopping wood, or programming. 22:52:10 .. 22:52:13 well that's the point, right? 22:52:16 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:23 nothing wrong with whores 22:52:29 I have nothing against them, but like the rest of us they probably hate their jobs 22:52:34 not so much that whores are bad, but that programming sucks as much as being a whore 22:52:43 the illegalisation of prostitution is the dumbest thing in the world.. 22:53:03 lets keep this on topic please 22:53:10 to quote george ... 22:53:12 nevermind D: 22:53:27 archangelpetro: racism might :P 22:53:37 anyways, this is offtopic 22:54:30 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:54:45 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:54:57 -!- afa [n=afa@131.152.178.51] has quit [] 22:58:58 -!- Kathrin-26^away [n=kati-zh@126-39-239-77-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 22:59:11 maybe we should have a #lisp-offtopic or something 22:59:50 there's #lisp-cafe or something like that 22:59:56 kzar: no, I'd be the only one there 23:00:06 most chans have an ot channel 23:00:27 and again I think of an idea that's good but already been done 23:00:29 Cronos [n=a@5ace2fc8.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:19 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 23:02:15 ok I found it it's #lispcafe 23:02:56 drewc: you got my msg? 23:03:13 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 23:07:02 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:08:09 i've got a memory fault in sldb when clicking on a frame 23:08:14 only happens for one frame 23:08:30 -!- nullwork_ [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:08:59 nullwork_ [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:00 deterministic, but hard to reproduce on anyone else's system 23:11:17 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.106.115] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:14:30 -!- aggieben [n=aggieben@dhcp7-57.geusnet.com] has left #lisp 23:16:04 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:16:34 good night 23:16:45 -!- mvilleneuve1 [n=matthieu@che33-1-82-66-18-171.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:17:05 join #lispcafe 23:17:40 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:17 -!- drafael|sleep is now known as drafael 23:19:44 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 23:21:56 tagbodies are more efficient than IF, right? 23:22:40 Umm... Apples are more efficient than Automobiles, right? 23:23:03 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-224-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 23:23:09 nyef, heard they're easier on pipelining/branch predictions, at least that's what mark tarver uses in Qi 23:23:38 -!- _sana [n=sana@p22.eregie.pub.ro] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:24:03 Well, of course they're easier on branch prediction. Tagbodies are progns with special rules for symbols within the body. 23:24:17 An IF involves a control-flow change. 23:24:18 -!- loxs [n=loxs@213.91.162.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:26 -!- avdi [n=avdi@216.230.102.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:28 It's easier to predict a branch that isn't there. 23:28:04 http://www.lambdassociates.org/Studies/study10.htm 23:28:06 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-212-98-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:28:25 elurin [n=user@85.96.235.121] has joined #lisp 23:28:36 hmm he uses tagbodies when matching a clause fails 23:29:39 i use RETURN-FROM when a clause matches instead of (go next-clause ) when it doesn't 23:30:01 it probably boils down on whether RETURN-FROM is well-optimized 23:30:24 but my system is more complicated, leaving less room for optimization 23:30:42 If you're within a BLOCK rather than a function, RETURN-FROM is theoretically fairly cheap. 23:31:04 hopefully so :) once i write an API i'll compare against mark tarver's code 23:31:06 Basically it's a GOTO? 23:31:39 or longjmp? 23:32:09 longjmp if a lambda with a RETURN-FROM is passed, probably 23:32:37 You know, neither of those comparisons (GOTO or longjmp) are particularly accurate. 23:32:39 -!- mooglenorph [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:33:13 If if knew, I wouldn't ask. 23:33:24 s/if/I/ 23:34:32 Both TAGBODY/GO and BLOCK/RETURN-FROM fall under the category of "non-local exits". 23:35:39 They are both have well-defined stack-unwind semantics, and can only operate in terms of lexically-visible destinations. 23:36:49 IIRC, longjmp doesn't have well-defined unwind semantics, as it predates the widespread use of so-called "exception" handling, and it certainly doesn't have a lexical limitation, as you can pass the target information around as a pointer. 23:37:00 -!- rpg [n=rpg@72.11.106.198] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:38:02 nyef: and you can pass around return/go using a closure...equivalent in what you can d owith them, at any reate. 23:38:08 'so-called "exception handling"' ? 23:38:20 And GOTO, traditionally doesn't operate outside of a single function anyway (and languages with GOTO in the traditional form don't have constructs like FLET, LABELS or LAMBDA, so can't generate a cross-frame unwind that way). 23:38:54 kpreid: Bah. -As defined-, the longjmp interface allows for it without a workaround. 23:39:24 z0d: We can get into that argument later on, if you want. 23:39:35 nyef: so you'd rather have big fat features than composition that suffices? :-) 23:39:55 nyef: Sure. But it's more like a question than an argument for me. 23:40:19 kpreid: Big fat features like closures? Hell yes! 23:40:36 nyef: Just ping me if you're ready. 23:41:07 nyef: er, I meant that the other way. longjmp is what I was calling a big fat feature 23:41:08 z0d: Essentially, most languages with "exception handling" deny the ability to do several useful things with the exceptions. 23:41:15 (not especially sound argument) 23:41:50 kpreid: I know you did, but the implementation of longjmp is nasty, and is basically to save/restore a few registers (stack pointer, frame pointer, maybe a couple GPRs). 23:42:30 Whereas we have to deal with special variable bindings and unwind-protect. 23:45:38 *kpreid* would be just as happy without special variable bindings as a fundamental feature, but... 23:46:18 Yeah, It's simultaneously useful and a pain. 23:50:46 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 23:51:04 -!- MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [] 23:51:14 nyef: Did you 'work' with Keith Clark in the '80s? 23:51:42 -!- uroboros [n=mjf@r9fk63.net.upc.cz] has quit ["dew on the telephone lines"] 23:52:11 I apologize for this question, but I've looked at CLHS and the SBCL manual and am drawing a blank: how to I run a random shell command from within CL? 23:52:57 rlpowell, standard doesn't specify that 23:53:05 ok, sbcl 23:53:16 sb-ext:run-program 23:54:15 Great! Thanks. 23:55:06 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-52-157.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:28 -!- rottcodd is now known as Guest24624 23:57:25 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 23:57:52 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-72-65-153-129.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:57 hmm... hth do I get mcclim to redraw my pane after clicking on a list-pane item and triggering a callback which changes some state?