00:00:12 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:05:00 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:06:01 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:06:28 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:08:17 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:11:53 EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has joined #lisp 00:12:30 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:13:59 -!- vsync [n=vsync@220-27.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:19:24 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 00:23:20 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 00:24:29 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host181-178-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:25:55 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:26:51 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:29:15 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-060-220.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:15 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:30:13 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:38:14 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.160.171] has quit [] 00:41:41 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@99-186-122-131.lightspeed.hstntx.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 00:41:44 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-027-128.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:09 yangsx [n=yangsx@61.50.221.78] has joined #lisp 00:44:01 -!- qen [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:53 Hmm, this dinky little laptop is not so comfortable for software development. I miss my 2 1600x1200 HP monitors at home. 00:45:26 how dinky? 00:46:12 It's one of those Fujitsu Siemens Lifebooks. It is very nice for traveling and taking notes in meetings. 00:46:55 how well does it run linux? 00:46:56 The screen in 1024x768 or something like that. 00:47:12 Very well in fact. 00:47:15 beach: 10 inches screen if I remember well ? 00:47:29 or 12 00:47:49 More like 10 00:48:06 With pixels that are not quite square, so looking at pictures and movies is a bit strange. 00:48:10 how can you stand to use emacs on a laptop with one of those obnoxious Fn keys in the way? 00:48:34 Which one? 00:49:09 the one between the control key and the windows key? (I always rant about this) 00:49:35 Oh, I never use the windows nor the Alt key. 00:49:46 And my control is on the capslock key. 00:49:48 what do you use for meta? 00:49:56 C-[ 00:50:21 rajesh [n=rajesh@cpe-66-65-36-140.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:36 I wish they sold laptops with space cadet keyboards. 00:50:56 huh. I M-f/M-b all over the place, and you'll pry my meta modifier out of my cold, dead, twisted hands. 00:51:39 antoni [n=antoni@178.pool85-53-3.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 00:51:42 hefner: right, when I do something like that repeatedly I use Meta, but then I lose my home position anyway. 00:52:12 I was probably better off when I still used the arrow keys. 00:52:47 I guess I could learn to use Meta with my thumbs, but I never bothered. 00:53:57 I put my left pinky on it, and then my middle and index fingers rest naturally on F and B, except on tortuous laptops 00:54:30 -!- younder [n=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 00:54:43 That would break my fingers on this laptop. 00:55:09 But I guess that's what you were saying. 00:56:28 Thumbs would be ideal, cause they are not used for anything else. 00:57:29 antoni: You rang? 00:59:51 tessier sorry if I disturbed you... 01:00:04 I was testing my irc client 01:00:45 I choosed you randomly 01:01:00 *chose 01:02:06 chosed 01:02:11 thanks 01:02:40 choose chose chosen 01:03:26 -!- jao [n=user@244.Red-83-40-177.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 01:04:10 anyone can has c2 wiki code word? 01:04:28 they made a blatant error of accusing a DEFUN in a LET binding being a toplevel form. i need to correct it 01:07:17 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 01:11:53 Anyway, I designed a `3' and a `4' this morning. I wonder whether this work is futile. 01:14:04 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@164.Red-83-49-201.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:14:47 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 01:15:28 is it fun? 01:15:51 hefner: Sometimes. :) 01:20:59 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:21 rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:21:39 -!- srp [n=srp@122.172.24.229] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:23:16 hefner: Development work these days seems to always be a combination of fun, challenging, and frustrating. 01:23:22 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:49 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:24:03 did it not used to be frustrating? (fun? challenging?) 01:24:05 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:21 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:59 I guess it always did. But the fun had a larger fraction before it seems. 01:25:42 -!- antoni [n=antoni@178.pool85-53-3.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 01:27:25 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B099.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:28:52 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-100-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:29:49 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@61.50.221.78] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:32:36 Fare [n=Fare@bas2-montreal45-1242554703.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:34:47 srp [n=srp@122.172.12.250] has joined #lisp 01:35:17 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:37:41 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:53 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:40:15 I blame databases 01:40:21 nothing but trouble, databases 01:40:34 -!- froog [n=user@81-234-149-249-no94.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:41:01 -!- nyef [n=nyef@64.222.164.52] has quit ["G'night all."] 01:41:08 disumu [n=disumu@p57A2637F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:36 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:14 anyone tried building their own keyboards? 01:44:16 is it hard? 01:44:33 space cadet/symbolics are collector's items by now :| 01:44:56 erm, verging on impossible, I would think 01:44:57 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 01:44:58 rsynnott: I can't agree more. Nowadays, most "databases" are small enough to fit in main memory. 01:45:22 *rsynnott* has an exciting date with a reluctant postgres installation tomorrow 01:45:25 'downtime' 01:45:33 I hate downtime; incredibly stressful 01:45:34 rsynnott: so why go to all the trouble of optimizing disk accss only in order to lose object identity. 01:46:46 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:47:37 ah, well, memory costs money, you know! 01:48:14 rsynnott: For our student record software (university wide) I calculated that 100 years of student data would fit in the main memory of this dinky laptop. 01:48:24 (rather less money than the programmer time required to keep the bloody database happy, you might think, but these decisions aren't made by programmers) 01:48:34 Indeed. 01:50:16 weirdo: I tried building a keyboard. It's a lot more complicated than rsynnott makes it sound. 01:50:18 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:50:40 verging on the impossible - impossible - actually building it. It goes like that. 01:50:53 even for that-thing-before-PS2-connectors? 01:50:56 heh 01:51:02 The what for what ? 01:51:04 it's the sort of thing that has a hefty industrial base behind it 01:51:21 my keyboard only has some plastic stuff that's probably conducting material and a tiny circuit board 01:51:32 On the subject of databases, does anyone have any insight into why slot-value-using-class can't chain its 'set via fault-join-slot' thing along :join slots of CLSQL view classes? 01:51:32 the electronic bit wouldn't be that bad; the mechanical side would be the problem 01:51:42 rsynnott: Exactly. 01:51:47 rsynnott, existing keys can be reused 01:51:54 Which is to say, what harm would I inflict on myself if I was to remove the check that stops it doing so. 01:51:58 what about the plastic sheets? 01:52:20 *schme* has no idea about the plastic sheet. 01:52:24 (you could solve the electronics part with a CPLD, some VHDL and ample consulting of large unpleasant USB HID references) 01:52:29 fullets, i dunno clsql, but svuc can't recurse 01:52:44 weirdo: you could go the old-fashioned root; springs and switches 01:52:46 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B827.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:52:49 (IBM model M, etc) 01:53:07 Those were fun. I remember trying to open one up to clean it. BOIIING. 01:53:24 weirdo: You could, you know, just remap a normal keyboard ;) 01:53:29 hmm. perhaps i should simply rebind unneeded keys to extra x11 modifiers and grumble occasionally about lack of keys for modifiers 01:53:45 How many modifiers do you need? 01:53:56 Weirdo: it doesn't get called on the same instance (barring deliberately broken cases) as far as I can tell 01:54:00 the later models actually had keys under the real keys; you could remove the front pieces without incident 01:54:06 i dunno. i should have greek, symbols, shortcuts for CL symbols, etc 01:54:19 a key to switch to the repl, a key to switch to the code buffer 01:54:24 weirdo: I think a few companies make weird keyboards with extra buttons 01:54:44 weirdo: You can map three on the left side of space bar, 4 on the right. one on caps lock I suppose. And some to the volume control things and what not. I have lotsa spare keys here actually. 01:55:03 i know, i could rebind the numpad! 01:55:06 hmm reminds me of a quebec effort to make a standard english-french "normalized" keyboard without dead keys, and they had five modifiers 01:55:09 also highly useful thinks like printscrn 01:55:11 weirdo: And you also have f1 - f12 to map shit on. 01:55:12 but how to make modifiers in x11? 01:55:13 so I guess there are other similar isolated attempts 01:55:31 and break 01:55:34 hmm, "wake up", "power", "sleep" 01:55:35 weirdo: I don't think you make new modifiers in X. 01:55:49 schme, oh. too bad. what to do then? 01:56:05 weirdo: No idea :) 01:56:22 if you can rely on a main editor like emacs you could use custom input modes I guess also 01:56:24 weirdo: I suppose you can go with mode switch for 2 extra "layers" on each of the alphanumeric keys. 01:56:24 couldn't you do it on an emacs level? 01:56:53 you'd have to use emacs as your main os :) 01:57:00 i do 01:57:03 There are other OS ? 01:57:14 i mean, i have opera, music player, etc 01:57:33 but it's not like anything aside emacs is in dire need of modifiers 01:57:46 greek sounds fun 01:57:53 weirdo: So looking at a space cadet here I see 4 thinngs on the alphabet keys. That's no problem. 01:58:00 make a tiny change to pretty-lambdas 01:58:04 you need a dedicated window manager modifier 01:58:12 i use stumpwm 01:58:12 (it'd be nice, anyway) 01:58:25 so that setf becomes a left-arrow 01:58:32 weirdo: a A and some other two weird ones. So there's a shift-a modeswitch-a modeswicch-shift-a and there ya go. 01:58:33 ugh 01:58:36 maybe push/pop become down/up arrows 01:58:55 lambda is already  and i have it bound to alt-d 01:59:03 aka alt-gr 01:59:06 that would make setf defmethods look rather odd, surely? :) 01:59:26 why is that?  already behaves fun with isearch :) 01:59:46 and when typing it, but i got used to it 02:00:18 seems easy enough with the modifiers though. 02:00:19 so on #stumpwm i found out that efonts-fixed has nice symbols 02:01:01 so, any hints on how to make stumpwm+emacs create extra modifiers? 02:01:16 Why do you need extra modifiers though? 02:01:19 i mean, leaning on the key shouldn't require a circular map 02:01:43 maybe i could make the key a mode map, press it and then the "normal" key 02:01:48 it makes it easier on the fingers 02:01:57 s/mode map/keymap 02:02:13 I see hyper super meta ctrl shift here. 02:02:18 What more do you need? :) 02:02:18 hyper? 02:02:24 x11 uses hyper? 02:02:29 Yes. 02:03:25 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:03:46 -!- jlf [n=user@209.204.171.109] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:03:57 It's only greek you lack, but I tell you mode switch and you're all set 02:04:17 and all the other messed up keys you can map on your F1 to F12 and to some bizarre keysym or other. 02:04:30 Hun [n=Hun@vpn18-201.RZ.FH-Augsburg.DE] has joined #lisp 02:04:45 You can even paint lil' pictures on 'em ;) 02:06:02 alternatively, get one of those keyboards for the mad gamer set 02:06:13 they have all sorts of extra buttons for killing elves and so forth 02:06:43 "for killing elves" :) 02:06:48 -!- _8david` [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:06:52 well, whatever 02:06:53 *schme* gives rsynnott the middle of the night funny man award. 02:07:01 I found it very funny (: 02:09:21 if it has a key for killing gnomes, I'd buy it 02:09:59 rsynnott: is your article about working with cl-facebook still online? all the links google exposes seem dead. 02:10:09 oh, I've got it somewhere 02:10:30 (I botched my migration from movable type to blogger somewhat) 02:10:38 *nod* 02:10:43 i dare not to ask for the key names of japanese dating sim keyboards... 02:10:58 is it possible to create a method specialized on keywords? 02:11:02 and I think the whole blog may actually be inaccassible from some places at the moment; had a bit of DNS trouble yesterday 02:11:10 SBCL doesn't like (defmethod x ((value keyword)) ...) 02:11:33 (value (eql keyword)) or something 02:11:33 hbock: Why not? 02:11:34 hbock: on all keywords, or a specific keyword? 02:11:34 well, if you have a stable link to the article, i can check back after the zone expires. 02:11:49 (if you mean on one specific keyword) 02:11:58 I get There is no class named KEYWORD. 02:12:03 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 02:12:13 hbock: that's because a keyword is just a symbol 02:12:15 I assume then it only works with specific keywords using EQL specifiers? 02:12:19 ahhhh. 02:12:19 interned into keyword 02:12:30 that makes sense. 02:12:42 thanks! 02:12:44 (and constant and self-evaluating. but don't worry about that now) 02:12:45 you could check whether it was a keyword inside the method and if not just do call-next-method 02:12:57 though there may be a nicer way to do it 02:13:45 what the heck is wrong with the "height" parameter in emacs? *grmbl* 02:13:50 i mean, font face 02:13:57 i should probably be using the xft branch by now 02:14:22 you mean emacs should have had proper X font support forever ago 02:15:21 it's just easier to run it in a terminal and let it use those settings, imo. unless you need X11 support, then it's just ugly :) 02:15:28 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:15:41 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-f600d5e645dcffcd] has joined #lisp 02:16:37 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:18:22 any of you using emacsclient successfully/ 02:18:52 won't ask on #emacs, since they'll tell it's great, just like the undo multi-branch "feature" 02:20:53 I'm using it, but as I'd also tell you it's great I'm not sure that counts for much 02:21:31 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 02:21:49 [ot] zsh completion for ./configure is sooo nic 02:21:49 e 02:21:54 anyone wants a screenshot? 02:22:45 please stop rambling offtopic 02:22:54 ok 02:23:15 hefner: remember rambling about DEFCSTRUCT not defining accessors? 02:23:34 cffi:defcstruct, that is. 02:24:06 *beach* goes back to designing a `5'. 02:24:12 luis: I do, yeah. every time I use a C structure, it looks like a bomb went off in my code. 02:24:48 hefner: just implemented that. Got any suggestions for some name better than :CONC-NAME? 02:26:09 hefner: here's an example: http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.cffi.devel/1496 02:26:40 "* beach goes back to designing a `5'." - somehow this statement strikes me as laugh-out-loud funny 02:26:43 :) 02:27:51 luis: cool! I don't have any better ideas, though. 02:28:17 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:30:00 *hefner* has an (unrelated) idea 02:30:59 tim_ [n=tim@68-118-159-71.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:31:16 -!- EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net/"] 02:31:33 beach, what are you making, fonts? :) 02:31:36 ugh, slime/sbcl incompatibility. and if I update my slime, I'll have to edit my .emacs. 02:32:35 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-206-137.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:33:55 rrdtool has the absolute worst syntax ever 02:34:03 lispifying this is going to be an adventure and a half 02:34:45 oh, for its data files? 02:35:29 yeah. rrdtool is an excellent graphing tool 02:36:34 there are already some lisp graphing tool 02:36:38 tools 02:36:49 -!- xan [n=xan@62.57.40.18.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:36:58 adw-charting's acceptable, though saving a file takes ages 02:37:00 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 02:37:06 also, lately running an example produced an error 02:37:33 We're using adw-charting now, it's very limited for what we need, and like you said, it's pretty buggy 02:38:04 rrd is good for updating data incrementally 02:38:20 adw-charting graphs have to be generated all at once :( 02:38:54 -!- tim_ [n=tim@68-118-159-71.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:39:29 why is that a problem? write a DB interface :) 02:39:35 gnuplot! 02:39:46 i can't believe no one NIH'd gnuplot 02:40:05 I write halfassed plotting code in clim all the time 02:40:20 arghhh gnuplot hahaha 02:40:44 i'm just trying to not reinvent the wheel too much :D 02:40:52 actually, I use R instead most of the time. 02:40:57 it's actually an interesting coding exercise 02:41:35 hmmm, never used R 02:41:44 looks pretty good though 02:41:55 you could even try and use some of slyrus's code 02:43:15 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 02:45:51 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:46:55 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.215.60] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:48:24 -!- fullets [n=user@robotines.co.nz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:54:55 hefner: isn't that what scigraph is doing? 02:55:52 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:56:04 honestly, I've never loaded scigraph. 02:56:31 not invented here, you know. 02:56:40 hefner: It's good in that it doesn't require its own pane, and instead you can draw in any application pane. 03:00:06 OK, the `5' is done as well. That's half the digits. 03:00:09 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:00:38 hefner pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72859 03:02:37 shortened form of with-accessors, for the defstruct (and defcstruct) crowd 03:02:51 -!- rvirding [n=rvirding@h40n5c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:04:41 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 03:04:43 it could assume the hyphen 03:04:52 blbrown_lt [n=blbrown@76.210.238.110] has joined #lisp 03:04:59 I've wrested with that before, and finally decided that it's brain damaged to do that 03:05:20 if I were going to fuss over things like that, I wouldn't be using lisp, would I? 03:05:25 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-206-137.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:41 plus then I'd just have to hack in a backdoor for the case where you really didn't want a hyphen 03:05:48 i see 03:06:15 <_3b> no option to specify a package? 03:06:17 *weirdo* only got with-readonly-slots, with-alist etc 03:06:26 though i never use them 03:06:43 i never use iterate either, as i fuss over any dependencies :| 03:07:27 so i never use iterate for applications either, as i don't get any practice with it 03:09:18 inforichland [n=tim@68-118-159-71.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:10:51 _3b: how should it work? 03:11:10 -!- inforichland [n=tim@68-118-159-71.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:11:30 well, I guess it's pretty straightforward. 03:15:37 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:16:48 inforichland [n=tim@68-118-159-71.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:18:08 <_3b> yeah, just pass it to intern when interning the accessor name, so you don't have to use whatever package the struct is in 03:19:25 hi folks. I notice a comment on http://www.cliki.net/Clon saying there seems to be no release yet for my mini-project CLON. I never got around doing a 1.0 release, but i would call it stable now. 03:19:47 so, i would like to have a release party. here! 03:19:54 fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:03 now, i am clueless with git, should I tag a revision to make this? 03:20:19 yes 03:21:29 fe[nl]ix: welcome to the party :) 03:21:53 Cork up the Champagne! 03:22:01 who do I talk to about putting a .tar.gz on cliki? 03:22:09 dto: what do you mean ? 03:22:22 http://rafb.net/p/wEWXoi52.html 03:22:23 weeeee 03:22:43 -!- inforichland [n=tim@68-118-159-71.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:22:56 dto: you edit the relevant page and that's it 03:23:01 well this isn't high-priority, isn't there some nice way to make clon-1.0.tar.gz installable during the asdf-install process, instead of requiring people to download ? 03:23:02 oh 03:23:03 <_3b> tgz doesn't go on cliki, just a link if you want asdf-install to work (thugh the name conflict probably breaks that anwyway) 03:23:11 yangsx [n=yangsx@61.50.221.78] has joined #lisp 03:23:12 oh, that sucks. 03:23:24 there's already an asdf-install link on that page 03:23:42 you could change the project name 03:25:04 i have (:nicknames "cl-clon-objects") in my .asd, would that help?" 03:25:42 inforichland [n=tim@68-118-159-71.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:25:42 i'd prefer to keep calling it clon, but use :cl-clon-objects if it's going to cause conflicts with an existing person's package 03:25:43 _3b: I question the utility of such a keyword. defstruct doesn't have one, at least. 03:26:10 I've always been a little nervous writing macros which create new symbols, though. 03:26:42 <_3b> hefner: when creating a struct it is reasonable to put the accessors in the current package, but when using an accessor that already exists, that isn't as reasonable 03:27:47 _3b: ah, for the accessors! I'd assumed they'd be accessible from the current package, but I see what you're getting at. 03:28:09 <_3b> yeah, probably less useful to create the vars in arbitrary packages :) 03:28:57 dto: what about clono ? 03:29:25 mm.... 03:29:28 i don't know 03:30:59 ok, i made a git tag called "1.0" from within emacs. how do I check out a proper 1.0 tree in a scratch area for making into a .tar.gz ? 03:30:59 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@61.50.221.78] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:31:50 dto: git tar-tree 03:32:12 ah, man git-tutorial :) 03:32:25 erm, my apologies, that's deprecated :) you're looking for git-archive 03:32:34 i should probably start using git tar-tree then... 03:32:39 s/start/stop 03:33:14 dto: git archive --format=tar --prefix=clon-1.0/ 1.0 | gzip > ../clon-1.0.tar.gz 03:33:14 man git-detatched-head-ate-my-source-code-wtf 03:33:24 :D 03:33:36 -!- inforichland [n=tim@68-118-159-71.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:34:13 that's so unweildy 03:34:49 i like git tar-tree better even if it is deprecated :D 03:37:24 -!- Hun [n=Hun@vpn18-201.RZ.FH-Augsburg.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:38:31 yeah git-archive is a slight bit unwieldy 03:38:37 i just now got it working properly 03:38:46 git-archive --prefix="clon-1.0/" --format=tar 1.0 | gzip > ~/html/packages/clon-1.0.tar.gz 03:41:07 ok, now CLON needs a logo 03:41:47 how many lines can I paste without a flood alert? 03:42:34 hbock: 2. for more, use the paste.lisp.org 03:43:52 dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 03:44:22 http://paste.lisp.org/display/72862 03:44:29 dto: bam logo'd 03:45:00 ahhh , great figlet idea!!! 03:45:17 i like all lowercase better 03:45:38 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A2637F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["zzz"] 03:49:28 yay 03:50:13 dto: can you speak at the BLM? When? 03:51:39 whenever 03:52:07 how long can i have? i have interesting lisp video games to demonstrate, but could also demonstrate the object system 03:53:04 what is the next meeting? 03:53:29 hbock, kerning? 03:54:02 lmao, i wasn't serious. just the output of 'figlet -f big CLON' 03:54:18 :) 03:54:30 toilet > figlet though 03:55:05 you can do toilet -f big --gay LISP and it gives it fabulous color 03:56:02 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:19 haha 03:56:32 it also has --metal and a few others 03:56:50 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.200.112] has joined #lisp 03:58:03 hbock: how about if i re-use one of my old defunct logos: http://dto.github.com/images/linkd-logo.png 03:58:57 heh, i love stuff like this: http://github.com/dto/rlx/graphs/punch_card 03:59:06 computer measurements of my humanoid work output 04:02:01 dto: end of january 04:02:24 ok, here at Tue Dec 30 23:05:55 EST 2008 is the 1.0 release of CLON: http://dto.github.com/notebook/clon.html 04:02:24 04:03:21 dto: can you speak on mon jan 26th 2009 at 1800 at MIT? 04:03:30 let me check my palm pilot 04:05:35 yes! 04:10:46 -!- elurin [n=user@85.104.129.185] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:13:15 Fare: that's fine 04:13:20 Fare: i look forward to it! 04:16:28 dto: can you send me a blurb by email? 04:16:34 2 blurbs - 1 about you, 1 about your speech 04:17:49 Fare: what's your email addrress? 04:18:04 Fare: would you prefer i spend my time on CLON or RLX or what? 04:18:08 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 04:18:33 dto: whichever you prefer 04:22:00 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:26:59 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:28:56 jli [n=jli@adsl-074-229-201-181.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:02 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:32:40 -!- Fare [n=Fare@bas2-montreal45-1242554703.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:38:35 yay, I can defun |fn names with spaces and exclamations!| 04:38:46 heh 04:39:10 go lisp 04:39:14 -!- keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:40:30 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:42:33 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 04:50:19 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 04:52:16 -!- Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["Go Canada!"] 04:53:38 any slime devs around? 04:53:43 completion is still broken 04:53:58 with compound completion, it matches all packages instead of exports of the current one 04:53:58 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:59:12 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 04:59:15 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:04:01 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2105.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:04:01 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279441402.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:04:11 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279441402.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 05:15:58 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:30 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:17:45 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:24 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:20:44 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279441402.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:20:59 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:22:43 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6B20.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:12 -!- alek_b [n=alek_b@cable-89-216-135-117.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:32:54 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:33:57 alek_b [n=alek_b@cable-89-216-135-117.dynamic.sbb.rs] has joined #lisp 05:35:07 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:46 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 05:40:11 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47821.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:45 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45EF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:46:40 -!- billc` [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:47:02 billc` [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:30 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6B20.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:49:24 dialtone [n=dialtone@189.176.122.178] has joined #lisp 05:50:30 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 06:20:38 disregard the last messages. i'm a moron 06:20:39 :-) 06:20:55 what was the issue? 06:21:36 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:21:36 list-all-packages is in package cl, i thought it was in sb-impl 06:26:05 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:22 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.158.204] has left #lisp 06:28:00 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:50 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:32:39 weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 06:36:54 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:39:03 evan_ [n=evan@65-183-142-159-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:06 -!- evan_ is now known as eflynn 06:40:21 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@189.176.122.178] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:54:39 -!- wol [n=wol@c-24-4-220-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:07:32 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-0-57.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 07:12:15 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:26 few days ago someone was asking about a way to reduce a list, two elements at a time, IIRC 07:14:58 seems like nobody was around at the time who has heard of arnesi, or at least looked it :-) 07:16:03 hmm, i don't quite understand what does 'reduce a list, two elements at a time' mean? 07:16:04 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:18:06 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:48 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:14 also just found this, On Lisp in HTML :-) http://www.bookshelf.jp/texi/onlisp/onlisp_toc.html 07:24:11 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:24:29 fusss: i guess you didn't see my question about reducing a list, what does 'reduce a list, two elements at a time' mean? 07:24:53 weirdo: I want to build my own keyboard. I want a good chord keyboard. 07:25:07 i wasn't sure if it was your question, this was about 3 days ago, IIRC 07:25:07 And building a keyboard is not verging on impossible. 07:25:29 fusss: no, it was now, before you disconnected 07:25:44 from what i recall, the problem description fit the make-reducer spec in arnesi 07:25:58 stassats`: let me look at the logs 07:26:17 i don't disconnect randomly, i walk around with the laptop and the wifi gets weak :-P 07:26:47 <_3b> thats what screen and a CLI irc client is for :) 07:27:30 *stassats`* doesn't like CLI emacs 07:27:34 chatzilla, my man. i connected with irsii and my eyes bled 07:27:56 stassats`: that's all use. console emacs. gui emacs only if i have to edit arabic text. 07:29:40 wow, beach is in Saigon? 07:29:47 <_3b> any idea how well emacs 23 deals with dropping connections on remote displays? been meaning to try that instead of screen so i can get a good irc client 07:31:04 _3b: you take your IRC way too seriously, or maybe you wanna run a log bot 07:31:06 emacs uses X for remote display? 07:31:32 <_3b> fusss: if i took it seriously, i'd actually do it instead of just wondering about it :p 07:31:32 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:33:26 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:55 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.225.159] has joined #lisp 07:33:59 lenst [n=user@host-90-235-1-141.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 07:34:08 christ, i'm wardriving in my own house, angling for a better signal out of a wifi router i can see :-S 07:35:11 <_3b> hmm, emacs23 is apparently actually nearing release... may have to look at it again soon 07:41:07 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:07 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:42:45 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:43:06 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:07 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 07:43:43 _3b: i have been running it for 6 months or so 07:44:17 <_3b> last time i tried, the new font stuff was still too slow on windows 07:44:47 <_3b> don't remember how long ago that was though 07:45:10 "GNU Emacs 23.0.0.1 (i386-mingw-nt5.1.2600) of 2007-08-18 on TPAD" 07:46:38 my linux one harks back to the early 21st century tho :-) 07:47:04 <_3b> if you use a small font can you scroll an 80x100 or so frame smoothly? 07:49:24 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:49:24 umm, i'm on 1024x768. smallest font is 10dpi and it's not tolerable. 07:49:35 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:50 <_3b> tolerable scroll speed you mean? 07:50:27 tolerable reading size 07:50:53 <_3b> ah 07:50:53 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:51:05 BrianRice-mb_ [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:17 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:54 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:52:08 brb 07:56:39 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.140.30] has joined #lisp 07:56:39 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:56:51 -!- morlos [n=morlos@cpe-76-94-160-6.socal.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 07:57:51 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:01 nicolas [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:14 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:06:05 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:11:02 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:12:03 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-155.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 08:14:28 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:27 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:17:22 ray` [n=ray@70.102.172.126] has joined #lisp 08:18:20 -!- ray` is now known as merach 08:19:38 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:42 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:22:58 good morning 08:24:44 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 08:27:43 netaust1n [n=austinsm@70-56-3-29.desm.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:30 -!- BrianRice-mb_ is now known as BrianRice 08:29:03 Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-416342.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 08:44:41 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:51 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 08:52:16 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:02 -!- alek_b [n=alek_b@cable-89-216-135-117.dynamic.sbb.rs] has quit [] 08:58:03 -!- m4dnificT [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:58:04 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:59:12 m4dnificT [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 08:59:12 robyonrails [n=roby@host181-178-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:59:13 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 09:02:21 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:04:05 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:17:12 beach [n=user@58.186.158.204] has joined #lisp 09:17:16 Good afternoon. 09:17:32 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:17:40 hello beach 09:21:07 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:22:07 mvilleneuve: Did you write some software to convert TrueType fonts to my Metafont-lookalike? 09:22:54 beach: no, I thought you did :) 09:23:07 Bah. I am busy being on vacation. 09:23:11 wow, CHECK-TYPE has such a positive effect on type inference 09:23:24 beach: heh :) 09:23:30 i dunno assembly, but SBCL probably proven all the types, etc 09:23:45 mvilleneuve: I did design the digits `4' and `5' though. 09:24:54 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 09:29:04 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 09:29:38 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.72.107] has joined #lisp 09:29:42 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Client Quit] 09:36:21 myrkraverk` [n=johann@85-220-123-19.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 09:38:36 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:39:11 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 09:42:53 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:44:17 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 09:46:12 mvilleneuve: do you remember how to get a quadratic Bezier curve (as in TrueType) when all you have are cubic ones? It was something simple like put the two control points of the cubic curve in the control point of the quadratic curve. 09:47:47 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 09:48:55 beach: ah, no I don't know the answer, although the doubling of the control point sounds familiar 09:52:54 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:55:20 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:49 what's the more sensible representation for odometers? 09:56:49 (odometer 4269 :radix 10) => (3 2 6 9) or (4 2 6 9)? 09:57:10 Why not use a nice integer? 09:57:35 guille_ [n=guille_@164.Red-83-49-201.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:59:19 http://academia.wikia.com/wiki/Approximating_cubic_Bezier_curves 09:59:35 Zhivago, what's a nice integer? 09:59:48 I'm partial to 2342 10:00:02 weirdo: 3493 is quite nice 10:00:13 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 10:01:51 basically, i need it for variables in type systems 10:02:04 or did I misunderstand the direction in which you're converting? The easy direction would be http://fontforge.sourceforge.net/bezier.html#ttf2ps 10:02:21 but if it returns (2 3 4 2) for Zhivago's number, the first number is one-off 10:02:36 so i could make another keyword argument 10:04:20 lhz [n=shrekz@c-db43e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:04:32 lichtblau: I need the other way around, and it's not an approximation because you can get an exact quadratic curve form a cubic equation. I just don't know where to put the control points. 10:04:34 i'm still in love with new slime-complete-symbol for keyword arguments! 10:04:48 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.218.244] has joined #lisp 10:04:52 lichtblau: checking your second URL now... 10:05:11 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 10:06:07 lichtblau: that's it. Thanks! 10:08:34 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:01 PHP uses for the non complete-moron 10:09:27 The 'incomplete moron'? 10:09:42 underneath any useful php web application is a database dying to be de-phpified 10:10:12 mysql> tee dribble.txt; then `describe` the tables to your heart's content :-) 10:10:43 lichtblau: the problem was to take a TrueType font and convert it to my Metafont-alike. 10:11:05 yet another win for smug lisp weenies who ride on the coattails of good phpers who ACTUALLY read a book on relational database design :-) 10:11:15 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:11:50 entity-relationship THIS! muuuahahahahaha 10:13:36 bonus: your app is now error compatible with famous php product, you can google for solutions :-P (might have to revise the "non-moron" clause above tho) 10:14:00 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-229-227.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 10:14:29 Now where does Metafont put the control points for a segment like p1 {d1} .. {d2} p2? 10:15:55 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 10:16:11 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:16:15 Darn, my Metafond book is 1000km from here. 10:17:00 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 10:18:21 anekos_ [n=anekos@pl1080.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:20:39 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has joined #lisp 10:25:07 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl641.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:27:17 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 10:31:15 So, there is probably no point in translating the control points of TrueType directly to my Metafont-alike because they could just as easily be rendered directly as quadratic Bezier curves. The interesting part would be to translate them to "optimal" Metafont-alike programs that could then be maintained. 10:33:17 Luckily, this is also a somewhat more interesting problem. :) 10:34:19 would it be possible to write a Metafont-alike "optimizer"? 10:34:48 mvilleneuve: possibly yes. 10:36:06 mvilleneuve: I am guessing it would translate things like p1 (controls q1 and q2) p2 to something like p1 (tensions a and b) p2 and then if a and b are 1 or close to that, translate that to p1 .. p2 or some other appropriate operator. 10:36:30 er, insert some direction specifiers as well. 10:37:51 It could also merge two or more consecutive segments if they can be accurately approximated by a single one. 10:38:19 question: say I'm compiling (+ 3 4) somewhere in an application and assume that + is declared inlane, can sbcl (or is there a framework to aide that) call that during compilation and replace it with it's result? 10:38:22 Which I think might well be possible when the initial segments are quadratic. 10:39:07 madnificent: it's known as constant-propagation and implemented by most compilers. 10:39:35 mad: See also compiler-macros. 10:39:40 beach: thanks 10:39:52 Zhivago: google for it? or should I look somewhere else for it? 10:40:00 Suggest looking in the hyperspec. 10:40:32 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/m_define.htm 10:40:37 madnificent: if you are worried that it won't happen, such as when you have your own function (say f) and want to make sure (f c1 c2 ...) gets computed before excecution, you can usually do #.(f c1 c2 ...) 10:40:46 ah thanks 10:40:56 #. will do the operation at read-time, which may or may not be appropriate. 10:41:02 beach: ah! that's that magical #. 10:41:12 madnificent: What Zhivago said. 10:42:10 thanks for the info very much, I didn't think I'd get a decent answer. I didn't even hope it was built-in. 10:42:41 You must have a very low opinion of Lisp and of #lisp. 10:42:51 beach: darn? it's the internet age! http://books.google.fr/books?q=metafont&btnG=Search+Books&hl=en 10:43:02 beach: no, it just felt like something extreme to do 10:43:29 madnificent: Read about compiler-macros -- they sound like what you were looking for. 10:43:38 Lisp, the language for extreme requirements. 10:44:24 -!- anekos_ is now known as anekos 10:44:31 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@195.116.35.13] has quit [Excess Flood] 10:45:09 mathrick [n=mathrick@195.116.35.13] has joined #lisp 10:45:10 beach: but it seems some are still somewhat reticent... :-( 10:45:35 So it seems. 10:46:42 beach: have a look at http://www.lookforbook.com/cgi-bin/search.cgi?lang=en&st=metafont&network=1 10:47:12 -!- lenst [n=user@host-90-235-1-141.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:47:14 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:48:03 matimago: Amazing! 10:48:47 Small planet :-) 10:51:54 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 10:53:04 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has quit [] 10:53:11 The russian text is a bit hard to decipher. 10:54:05 MrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 10:54:08 Hi 10:54:17 hello MrSpec 10:56:14 How are you beach ? Still on Holidays ? 10:57:18 MrSpec: Yes, until Friday. In a few minutes we go to the newyear celebrations at the Sofitel Plaza hotel in HCM. 10:57:48 MrSpec: I'll still be in HCM for work for another 3 weeks. 10:57:50 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-206-137.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:57:52 There is eveining ;) I have to wait few hours :D 10:57:53 beach: things like that happen :-) Happily I learned Russian. Unfortunately I forgot it :-( I can decipher but hardly understand. 10:57:56 -!- kidd [n=kidd@70.Red-83-36-89.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:58:22 matimago: well, let me know if you find the URL to the real PDF. 10:58:59 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-118-24.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:59:29 well, you have the draft from Knuth himself there. 10:59:46 in tex. 11:00:04 matimago: I am not willing to read math formulae in TeX source, and I am sure it would be impossible to compile, but I guess I could try. 11:00:17 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 11:00:21 Anyway, I shall be off. A Happy New Year to everyone! 11:00:39 -!- beach [n=user@58.186.158.204] has left #lisp 11:00:40 Happy New Year ! 11:00:42 ahh 11:02:09 kidd [n=kidd@55.Red-83-36-89.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:21 nostoi [n=nostoi@244.Red-79-146-65.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:48 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:08:27 ironChicken [n=richard@host81-141-39-58.wlms-broadband.com] has joined #lisp 11:10:19 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-229-227.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:11:01 vasa [n=vasa@mm-56-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 11:16:50 -!- drwhen [n=d@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:17:28 Hun [n=Hun@port-92-195-115-144.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:17:31 elurin [n=user@85.104.129.185] has joined #lisp 11:17:53 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CFCA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:14 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has joined #lisp 11:23:06 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has quit [Client Quit] 11:25:49 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@244.Red-79-146-65.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 11:27:00 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:47 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has joined #lisp 11:30:02 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has quit [Client Quit] 11:31:27 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B41A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:31:41 -!- Hun [n=Hun@port-92-195-115-144.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:37:08 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CFCA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:38:46 -!- dankna [n=d@ool-43516bc9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:40:50 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:42:28 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["bored with coding okay?"] 11:44:56 PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 11:48:21 what's the way to make (load ...) take relative pathnames instead of absolute ones? 11:48:44 or do you really have to change *default-pathname-defaults* ? 11:49:11 or bind it 11:49:29 it already takes relative pathnames, but those relative pathnames are resolved relative to d-p-d 11:49:52 but then d-p-d would be an absolute path? 11:50:15 relative to what? 11:50:18 Think about it. 11:50:23 to the location of the file 11:50:42 d-p-d should be an absolute path, yes 11:50:56 It is better if it is. 11:51:01 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.218.244] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:51:02 and how do you manage code-portability then? 11:51:20 Otherwise, you get implementation specific behavior, such as using a POSIX current working directory or some other strange things. 11:51:22 if you want relative to the location of another file, you can merge-pathnames with *load-pathname* or whatever 11:51:28 if I got somewhere in my code (let ((d-p-d "/home/Numlock/Project/Code/Foo")) ..) 11:51:40 PissedNumlock: code portability is managed with load-logical-pathname-translations. 11:51:48 well, in practice, I doubt that 11:52:23 I would say that most people (in practice) manage relocatable systems by using a system definition facility 11:52:41 which internally will use some mechanism such as either matimago or I have suggested 11:52:53 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@164.Red-83-49-201.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:53:36 k thx 11:56:49 csr21@omega:/tmp/sbcl$ cp src/runtime/sbcl output/sbcl.core /var/tmp/ 11:56:53 just like old times 12:02:38 younder [n=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 12:02:49 -!- mirakel [n=mikael@c-7642e353.027-10-67766c2.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 12:04:43 srp_ [n=srp@122.172.12.65] has joined #lisp 12:05:31 H4ns [n=hans@dialin-145-254-062-083.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:11:03 -!- srp [n=srp@122.172.12.250] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:11:20 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:11:32 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:57 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:15:29 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:27 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5b7e.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 12:16:54 antoni [n=antoni@212.pool85-53-25.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 12:19:45 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:31 guille_ [n=guille_@164.Red-83-49-201.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:03 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:10 segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1F343.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:22:33 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1CCE3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:26:24 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-56-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 12:29:31 Eleanore [n=a@ip215131.lbinternet.se] has joined #lisp 12:32:04 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:34:12 -!- xnixan [n=xnixan@unaffiliated/xnixan] has quit [No route to host] 12:34:51 xnixan [n=xnixan@41.236.206.42] has joined #lisp 12:35:03 sb-introspect:find-definition-source doesn't find any of my defuns... Can I step through it somehow from the slime repl? 12:39:35 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:40:56 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:19 -!- srp_ [n=srp@122.172.12.65] has left #lisp 12:43:02 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:44:22 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@164.Red-83-49-201.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:45:02 ayrnieu [n=julianfo@18.sub-70-197-60.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 12:47:32 koning_robot: Did you enter those defuns at the REPL? 12:48:26 or using LOAD 12:48:26 no, they're LOADed in from a file 12:48:43 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-126-059.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:51 did you compile the file? 12:49:31 no 12:49:40 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.218.244] has joined #lisp 12:50:28 so I guess I should compile it, but what do I do if the file LOADs other files? do they get compiled then, or should I use something else to load them? 12:50:50 use asdf 12:52:31 ok thanks, I guess it was time to figure that thing out anyway :) 12:52:59 koning_robot: http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 12:56:41 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.200.112] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 13:02:25 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.196.89] has joined #lisp 13:02:37 benny [n=benny@i577A2646.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:02:41 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 13:03:42 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit ["HNY"] 13:04:15 -!- antoni [n=antoni@212.pool85-53-25.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [No route to host] 13:05:50 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 13:05:52 H4ns1 [n=hans@dialin-145-254-062-083.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:59 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 13:07:28 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [""disk full" and Linux == weird problems .. brb."] 13:08:05 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:10:13 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 13:11:29 Hun [n=Hun@port-92-195-115-144.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:13:41 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:17 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:16:28 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483CFCA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:54 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:39 -!- xnixan [n=xnixan@41.236.206.42] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:29:19 -!- H4ns [n=hans@dialin-145-254-062-083.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:31:30 vasa [n=vasa@mm-142-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 13:31:36 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 13:31:51 xnixan [n=xnixan@41.236.206.42] has joined #lisp 13:32:57 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-118-24.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:33:07 antoni [n=antoni@192.pool85-53-12.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 13:35:41 dankna [n=d@ool-43516bc9.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:56 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:37:40 -!- MrSpec is now known as spec[afk] 13:38:03 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:26 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:40:34 Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 13:46:56 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2646.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:46:59 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:47:08 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@195.116.35.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:49:23 -!- Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-416342.home.otenet.gr] has quit [] 13:50:41 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-177-106-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:50:44 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:52:16 if simple-fun-header has widetag #x2a would both word #x62a and #xc2a be of this type ? 13:52:26 Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-118-24.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:52:37 yes 13:53:41 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p54897705.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:36 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 13:54:52 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4d4a.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:48 Well the simple-fun-header name slot points to something that doesnt look like a symbol. 13:57:56 mathrick [n=mathrick@195.116.35.13] has joined #lisp 13:58:01 some functions' names are conses 13:58:13 (setf foo) for example 13:58:16 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-177.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:59:42 ah.. the simple-fun-header-name slot contains 0x50737213 and at 0x50737213 - 7 NIL-address is found. 14:00:01 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p54897705.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:00:19 benny [n=benny@i577A2646.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:00:26 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:35 would 0x50737213 - 7 be the car ?.. the cdr does points to something. 14:01:36 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:03 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:02:18 that doesn't look like a cons pointer to me 14:02:37 what is the 3 lowtag on your system? Also, 32- or 64-bit? 14:02:58 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:03:01 (oh, maybe it is a cons pointer) 14:03:47 lowtag-bits = 3, 32bit. cdr points to #x53e ie a symbol. 14:03:57 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:08 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120121]"] 14:04:36 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 14:05:10 which symbol-name is XEP.. ?? 14:06:18 well, that's at least not completely ridiculous 14:06:27 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279439877.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:08:38 what is a cons-pointer ? 14:10:14 a pointer tagged with the cons lowtag 14:11:43 tomsw [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 14:12:06 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5b7e.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:46 would that tag be list-pointer-lowtag ( which is 3 in my case ). 14:13:59 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-118-24.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:15:37 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:17:32 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6B20.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:01 yes 14:20:40 -!- tomsw [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:21:53 thanks for the help. What does that cons contain ? 14:23:40 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:25:22 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-f600d5e645dcffcd] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:25:40 ehu_ [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 14:28:13 -!- merach [n=ray@70.102.172.126] has quit ["..."] 14:28:26 ehu__ [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 14:29:07 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 14:29:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-4-64.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:29:50 milanj [n=milan@77.46.248.69] has joined #lisp 14:31:16 -!- binarin` [n=user@gwn.alt1.ru] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:31:30 jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has joined #lisp 14:36:14 roderyk [n=norbert@kreczmar.t17.ds.pwr.wroc.pl] has joined #lisp 14:38:42 what is the most reasonable http library for scraping html (if there is one)? I just tried drakma and it crashes on (http-request "http://www.google.com" :user-agent :firefox), even though "xkcd.com" works fine. I admit that I didn't play with it long, but I was hoping that I would have to. Scraping is not what my app is about so I'd like to find one that Just Works. 14:39:43 ehu___ [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 14:39:52 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has joined #lisp 14:40:49 drakma is most reasonable (for me, at least) 14:41:02 -!- ehu [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:41:07 -!- ehu___ is now known as ehu 14:41:11 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:15 morning 14:41:25 minion: logs 14:41:25 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 14:42:03 roderyk: in what fashion does it crash? 14:43:54 stassats: it just sits there for a long time so I killed it. The time before that I ran it and it seemed to choke on some of the javascript that was returned (b/c it spit out some garbage lines into my slime session) 14:44:15 I do admit that I didn't play with it very long :) If you say that it Should Work, I'll give it another go 14:44:35 are you using a recent version? on what lisp implementation? 14:44:36 I haven't touch lisp in a while so it may be an issue with my slime or something... 14:44:39 sbcl 14:44:51 -!- ehu_ [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:45:01 sbcl 1.10.18; emacs and slime from Debian 14:45:23 is drakma from debian? 14:45:33 no, asdf-install 14:47:01 then i suggest you to describe your problem to drakma-devel@common-lisp.net 14:47:24 stassats: so just out of curiosity, does it work for you? 14:47:36 roderyk: yes 14:47:45 roderyk: what drakma version is that ? latest drakma/usocket/sbcl work fine here 14:48:12 -!- xnixan [n=xnixan@41.236.206.42] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:49:15 fe[nl]ix: drakma's from asdf-install. Just compiled it today, so anything it depends on would be new too. Maybe it's a slime issue; I'm going to be updating my emacs/slime setup anyway today, so maybe I'll look into this after I remove any other possibilities 14:49:29 I just wanted to get a heads-up that it's not a library limitation 14:49:43 does it work from sbcl directly, not from slime? 14:49:49 roderyk drakma works fine here too 14:50:08 it doesnt do parsing at all so it shouldnt choke on javascript or whatever 14:50:53 ah ok! It does work in sbcl, so it's some wierd slime issue 14:51:04 should have tested that from the beginning.. 14:51:31 install slime from cvs 14:51:46 alright, thanks everyone :) 14:52:01 it is usually better not to use lisp packages from debian 14:52:26 roderyk: fyi SLIME no longer includes slime-repl if you just (require 'slime) in your .emacs 14:52:56 jso: that's news to me, thanks for the heads-up 14:55:33 lenst [n=user@host-217-213-135-95.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:56:05 -!- ehu__ [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:54 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has joined #lisp 14:57:44 -!- divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:58:20 -!- H4ns [n=hans@dialin-145-254-062-083.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:02:08 H4ns [n=hans@dialin-145-254-047-187.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:08 _8david 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[n=antoni@192.pool85-53-12.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:57:36 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@207.189.195.44] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:58:40 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47821.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:05 -!- Davidbrcz [n=david@ANantes-151-1-118-24.w86-203.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:00:09 -!- _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:03:15 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:05:14 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.218.244] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:10:03 afa [n=afa@131.152.178.51] has joined #lisp 16:10:25 -!- xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.14/0000000000]"] 16:12:09 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 16:12:42 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 16:12:56 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2646.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:14:42 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:16:26 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:16:51 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-206-137.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:17:16 -!- afa [n=afa@131.152.178.51] has quit [] 16:18:53 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483CFCA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:19:57 Yay, my lisp parser and pretty printer are mostly working. 16:20:40 what about your GC? 16:21:30 No GC, no eval yet. ;) 16:22:52 http://rafb.net/p/Aui3hT17.html 16:22:53 :> 16:23:27 ew, commas 16:23:28 :-) 16:23:41 what's up with the camel case? it makes my eyes bleed 16:23:51 phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 16:23:59 weirdo: What else should I have used? :S 16:24:27 hyphens 16:24:37 Note: quad@quad-desk:~/Code/ > > C < < /QPL-test/Debug/bin 16:24:49 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Client Quit] 16:24:53 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 16:24:53 ;) 16:25:05 so? 16:25:18 it doesn't justify camel case in lisp code :P 16:25:27 That's not lisp code 16:25:42 That's a representation of parsed lisp code 16:25:56 Perhaps it will change. ;) 16:26:06 still, it should use hyphens :P 16:26:21 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 16:26:22 But the camel-case (hah!) is how some of the things are represented in the C code. 16:26:59 autoconvert camel -> hyphens :P 16:27:18 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 16:27:42 if you run for portability, don't use boehm 16:27:59 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:27:59 Why's that? 16:28:19 it's architecture-specific 16:29:19 Ah. To be quite honest, I don't know much about garbage collection. Anything I can read up on about it more in-depth, or any specific GC implementations? 16:30:00 Fact #1 about GC: reference counting is insufficient and slow 16:30:03 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:30:29 Quadrescence: Are you implementing yer own lisp there, or what is going on? 16:30:33 kpreid: maybe not. 16:30:36 schme_: Yeah. 16:30:39 Fact #2 about GC: Conservative garbage collection is a bug. 16:30:47 gengc is fun, as long as it runs in constant space :P 16:31:01 Quadrescence: there's a great GC survey by Paul Wilson 16:31:35 Quadrescence: it's called "Uniprocessor garbage collection techniques" IIRC 16:31:45 [PS] 16:31:45 Uniprocessor Garbage Collection Techniques 16:31:47 hehe 16:32:02 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:32:03 There you go. 16:32:40 There's also a book by Richard Jones. 16:32:52 It'd be more interesting with a "SMP garbage collection techniques" :) 16:33:12 I liked Wilson's paper better. 16:33:15 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-177.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:35:30 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 16:36:01 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-177.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:37:49 I don't know if you all are already aware, but there are two versions of the paper, a shorter version and thorough version ( http://www.cs.utexas.edu/ftp/pub/garbage/gcsurvey.ps and http://www.cs.utexas.edu/ftp/pub/garbage/bigsurv.ps respectively) 16:39:41 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host14.190-137-244.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:41:48 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0B5CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:58 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:49 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:43:44 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-26-140.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 16:45:29 -!- Hun [n=Hun@port-92-195-115-144.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:14 vladusagnu [n=vlado@95-42-249-95.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 16:46:28 -!- vladusagnu [n=vlado@95-42-249-95.btc-net.bg] has left #lisp 16:48:09 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:48:28 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-211-0.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:48:29 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 16:51:11 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-206-137.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:52:47 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host181-178-dynamic.57-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["raise RuntimeError"] 16:55:13 -!- bryte [n=user@c-24-21-34-206.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:55:28 bryte [n=user@c-24-21-34-206.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:29 nrub [n=user@209-203-114-154.static.twtelecom.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:10 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:59:27 H4ns1 [n=hans@dialin-145-254-062-083.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:35 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:02:48 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-253.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:03:57 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 17:05:00 -!- nrub [n=user@209-203-114-154.static.twtelecom.net] has left #lisp 17:07:15 -!- H4ns [n=hans@dialin-145-254-047-187.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:08:29 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 17:09:36 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:11:53 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-26-140.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:12:37 -!- dankna [n=d@ool-43516bc9.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:13:39 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:48 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:22 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:14:35 ioso 17:14:44 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-0.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:15:11 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 17:16:48 benny [n=benny@i577A2646.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:18:29 foo? 17:19:28 -!- lenst [n=user@host-217-213-135-95.mobileonline.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:20:08 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 17:22:45 -!- Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["Go Canada!"] 17:23:18 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-189.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:25:00 fie? 17:27:39 aggieben [i=3ff63839@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-74275be6090ecd80] has joined #lisp 17:29:52 anyone using plexippus-xpath with cxml-stp? i cannot get the darcs version to work on STP documents, only on regular DOMs 17:30:02 seems odd since the docs use stp documents in the examples 17:30:29 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:31:29 vasa [n=vasa@mm-54-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 17:33:28 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:33:37 -!- blbrown_lt [n=blbrown@76.210.238.110] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:34:31 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:54 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:35:24 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 17:37:44 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:38:04 weirdo: Maybe this is more attractive to you than the previous: http://rafb.net/p/Es1MjC95.html 17:38:06 :o 17:40:52 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 17:42:08 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:42:51 -!- Polarina [n=polarina@freecode-project/mentor/polarina] has left #lisp 17:44:13 schasi [n=schasi@p54A27D7E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:17 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.251.200] has joined #lisp 17:44:23 that's one strange READ you've got thar 17:50:05 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:52 Quadrescence: so what is your plan for reader macros? or are you implementing not-a-CL? 17:53:19 kpreid: As far as things go right now, it's not a CL 17:53:21 kpreid, he ain't got no EVAL yet 17:54:06 weirdo: That's not really READ, it's more like debug output for parsing right now. 17:54:23 Nonetheless, I guess it still is a strange way to read. 17:55:04 so 1.0.24's released? 17:57:40 tcr: ping 17:59:18 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.254.196] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:59:18 nyef [n=nyef@64.222.164.52] has joined #lisp 17:59:21 Hello all. 17:59:37 hello nyef 17:59:58 -!- billc` [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:32 I -finally- have working suspend-to-ram. 18:00:36 (Famous last words.) 18:02:50 antoni [n=antoni@27.Red-79-153-207.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:33 salex [n=user@ardbeg.math.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 18:05:27 -!- ksergio [n=sgarcia@mail.nuecho.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:06:42 qen` [n=unknown@84.92.70.37] has joined #lisp 18:08:27 -!- rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10:30 -!- ayrnieu [n=julianfo@18.sub-70-197-60.myvzw.com] has quit [Client Quit] 18:11:46 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:12:45 how can you get the location of the file you are working in, like (current-directory) in scheme? 18:13:15 clhs compile-file-pathname 18:13:27 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 18:13:38 Ah. No specbot. 18:13:42 thx 18:13:50 I'll find it myself :) 18:13:56 PissedNumlock: It's either compile-file-pathname or it's *compile-file-pathname*... I think. 18:15:03 nyef: the latter. 18:15:33 they both exist 18:15:52 but in my case, the 2nd option is idd what I need 18:17:05 guille_ [n=guille_@164.Red-83-49-201.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:33 -!- guille_ [n=guille_@164.Red-83-49-201.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 18:19:39 -!- dkcl [n=danderse@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:19:47 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:20:19 Madars- [n=null@unaffiliated/madars] has joined #lisp 18:23:04 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:23:40 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.8] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:26:22 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4d4a.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:28:06 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:28:43 acieroid [n=acieroid@20.110-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 18:30:19 nyef: 18:30:33 ? 18:30:43 I can't use that variable to load files relative to the location of the file 18:31:12 the thing is: we are working with several ppl, and the location of my source is in Foo/Bar and the other guy has a different location 18:31:30 and *default-pathnames-defaults* is set to my homedir 18:31:36 automaticly 18:32:54 you haven't explained how the suggestion is not suitable 18:33:02 Probably missing a #. or something. 18:33:24 (though I would suggest you might want the *load- or -truename* versions of that family of variables) 18:33:25 PissedNumlock, do you want to load a file relative to the location of the file currently being loaded? 18:33:35 yes Riastradh 18:34:03 PissedNumlock, or do you want to load a file relative to the location of the file in which the code doing the loading was compiled? 18:34:06 well, if I do (load "foo") in my file, I want that "foo" to be relative to the file that is loading "foo" 18:34:29 Then merge with *LOAD-PATHNAME* or *LOAD-TRUENAME*. 18:35:11 But note that if you call LOAD within a function, not at the top level, it will cease to be the case that *LOAD-PATHNAME* and *LOAD-TRUENAME* refer to the file by loading which the function was defined. 18:35:26 k thx 18:36:09 Does seeing HAIRY-DATA-VECTOR at the top of my profiling possibly indicate room for optimization? Or am I assuming those words mean something they don't? 18:36:39 ahaas: It depends on what you're doing. 18:37:13 If memory serves, hairy in this context means non-simple. 18:37:44 Ok, I saw those and I saw OPTIMIZED-DATA-VECTOR and I thought maybe the former was because I wasn't being specific enough. 18:37:55 It might well be. 18:38:17 ok, thanks 18:38:20 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6B20.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:39:19 Writing efficient Lisp code is still a bit of a mystery to me. 18:40:21 Yeah, I have some idea of how to manage it for my usual use-cases, but even then I occasionally have to do some experimenting. 18:40:33 -!- joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:41:42 Hun [n=Hun@port-92-195-115-144.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:41:49 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:45:55 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-240-155.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 18:46:01 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:46:27 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 18:52:21 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.62.19] has joined #lisp 18:54:14 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:34 joast [n=rick@76.178.184.231] has joined #lisp 18:55:26 -!- fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:58:33 fe[nl]ix: yeah? 19:00:06 H4ns [n=hans@dialin-145-254-062-083.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:39 do cold-collect-forms alter the way defuns are shown in trace-files ? 19:02:02 tcr: never mind, I sent the patches to slime-devel 19:02:45 lenst [n=user@host-217-214-138-169.mobileonline.telia.com] has joined #lisp 19:05:17 jimi_hendrix [n=Jimi__He@unaffiliated/jimihendrix/x-735601] has joined #lisp 19:05:22 -!- antoni [n=antoni@27.Red-79-153-207.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:05:33 hi...can you make an irc bot in common lisp? 19:06:05 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@dialin-145-254-062-083.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:06:56 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:07:04 anyone? 19:07:27 jimi_hendrix: see lisppaste code 19:08:01 i can find his source where? 19:09:51 also whats the advised version of CL to learn? SBCL? 19:10:54 -!- Hun [n=Hun@port-92-195-115-144.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:11:52 advised version of CL ? 19:11:57 dysinger [n=tim@166.129.61.167] has joined #lisp 19:12:06 just learn CL from somes book ... 19:12:22 minion: tell jimi_hendrix about pcl 19:12:24 jimi_hendrix: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 19:12:48 jimi_hendrix: SBCL is a great Common Lisp implementation to use. 19:13:17 -!- joshg [n=josh@S01060030bd077f55.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:13:30 xan [n=xan@81.184.160.8.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 19:14:02 ok thanks 19:14:13 id prefer one that didnt force me to use emacs but o well 19:14:41 I think LispWorks has a free trial edition with it's own IDE, but I might be mistaken. 19:15:00 better get used to emacs, or else 19:15:48 weirdo, vim > emacs imo 19:15:54 Avoiding emacs for open source Lisp implementations seems to be an uphill battle. 19:16:14 allegro has it's own IDE 19:17:05 jimi_hendrix, not for lisp development 19:17:21 any reason why except for slime? 19:17:22 s/it's/its/ 19:17:28 and yeah, i was a vim user before i started using slime 19:19:09 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:09 jimi_hendrix: There's a big historical culture overlap between Lisp and Emacs. Appreciating one, makes you appreciate the other more. 19:19:33 does it happen to be the fact that there is emacs-lisp... 19:19:35 chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.162.15.58] has joined #lisp 19:19:45 I don't know about -makes-, but it certainly helps. 19:20:14 I think it's more the fact that the second major emacs implementation was written in MacLISP. 19:20:28 -!- chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.162.15.58] has quit [Client Quit] 19:20:49 And every emacs since then has honored that heritage. 19:20:51 jimi_hendrix: There have been Emacsen before GNU Emacs. 19:21:32 i know 19:21:57 hmm...ok and 1 more thing 19:22:00 They were developed by the same people who also contributed to the design and implementation of Common Lisp. 19:22:13 is it not lisp like to use variables? 19:22:25 cause ive heard that 19:22:42 I use variables all the time. 19:23:00 drwhen [n=d@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:06 ok 19:23:15 well maybe its just non-scheme liike then 19:23:44 In fact, I'm fairly sure that you can't actually get much done in Common Lisp without variables. 19:24:08 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:24:14 (Since each named parameter to a function call ends up bound to a variable within the body of the function.) 19:24:28 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:24:43 greetings 19:24:45 well 19:24:57 Hello fusss. 19:25:01 gah nvm... 19:25:15 if i dont know it well enough to explain it then i dont know it 19:25:35 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:25:44 nyef: You surely could. (By implementing an ad-hoc, informally-specified, bug-ridden, slow implementation of half of Haskell) 19:25:56 at the risk of making a fool of myself, i must admit that i'm finding it hard to think "large" at a systems level. too many years of rote "api" programming seems to have frozen my mind growth. 19:25:59 of of a concatenative language 19:26:04 s/of/or/1 19:26:23 git-emacs is cool 19:26:25 tcr: Umm... But the implementation would involve variables, wouldn't it? 19:26:39 *fusss* waits til the current heated topic slows down 19:26:40 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 19:26:55 fusss: That's... not necessarily a bad thing. What's the matter with small systems? 19:27:23 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 19:27:59 tcr: bug-ridden,slow, informally-specified ... and monads! yum! 19:28:04 nyef: systems programming has been largely an afair of debugging for me. i can patch up a driver on a kernel i have never seen, but i'm finding it difficult to create large scale "componentized" frameworks 19:28:11 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:28:42 fusss: Ahh. That might be because the better ones are more grown than designed from the start. 19:28:58 yeah? 19:29:10 Well, it's a good working hypothesis. 19:29:51 What are some of the frameworks that you're looking at for inspiration? 19:29:58 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 19:30:15 i was hacking on a character driver as late as two months ago, but i have never written a public-facing web applications. neglected the new platform. 19:31:14 And there's just so much there that it's hard to get a handle on? 19:31:15 not so much inspiration, but *my* project (not stuff i do for others) is basically geocities + deviantart + amazon all rolled into one, but for a niche language group (non-english) 19:31:58 basically a place where people of a certain skillset can showcase their talents, post their work for a "community", and also be able to sell online 19:32:08 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-71-226-66-93.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:25 add into that an alternative payment system for the developing world where there is no credit card system, and you have a helluva bit for me to chew 19:32:40 I had the same idea 5 years ago 19:32:57 So... Break it down into groups of related use-cases / functional areas, and work from there? 19:33:37 do you realize i only learned to persist a session in a database for multiple servers .. just last night? i.e. i'm an idiot. 19:34:04 i know more about the relocation tables of long defunct DLLs than everyday software 19:34:22 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:34:29 Hrm... defunct DLL relocation tables...? Win16 / NE format? 19:34:36 yep 19:34:37 you'll pick it up as you go, no worries 19:34:41 NE/LE 19:34:51 i really hope so 19:34:55 Heh. Yeah, NE format executables were a pain to work with. 19:35:14 also...lets say im using SBCL...how would i run a program...a program without going into the listener and either going through it line by line or telling it to eval a file? 19:35:33 i hope the world still needed Windows 98 systems programmers, i know my around softice :-P 19:35:37 jimi_hendrix: You mean like a shell script? 19:35:38 my way 19:36:34 nyef, lets say i made a c++ program...i would do something along the lines of: 19:36:57 Ah. So you're looking for something like the :executable t option to save-lisp-and-die? 19:36:58 jimi_hendrix: It is possible to create executable programs with SBCL. 19:37:07 g++ foo.cpp && ./a.out 19:37:14 ok 19:37:17 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 19:37:17 command? 19:38:01 Alternately, if you wanted to go the shell script route, you could try something like http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/crtc-lcd-test.lisp 19:38:18 jimi_hendrix: sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die 19:38:33 ? 19:38:52 jimi_hendrix: There's also the cl-launch project. 19:38:55 ooh, Purely Functional Data Structures is/was a PhD thesis. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~rwh/theses/okasaki.pdf :-) 19:39:46 well ill start hacking CL after i set up my new comp today 19:40:01 jimi_hendrix: There is no direct equivalent to g++ && ./a.out, that's just not how you program in Lisp. 19:40:17 fusss: One of my goals for next year is to become more comfortable with GUI programming. You're not the only one who spent a lot of time at the systems level ignoring new developments. 19:40:31 tcr, ok so i wrote my program...how do i run it? 19:40:54 jimi_hendrix: By invoking the relevant function at the REPL. 19:41:19 and if i dont want to go into REPL? 19:41:32 nyef: yeah, "When keeping it 1337 goes wrong" :-) at least homeland security scare gave us a few "decent" gigs to coast by. Now it's all "twitter clone or perish" :-P 19:41:32 Via --load and --eval at toplevel? 19:41:34 i just want to run it 19:41:39 jimi_hendrix: You do want to go into REPL during development. 19:41:42 or am i just being non-lisp ish 19:42:01 tcr: This is more a deployment question. 19:42:03 ok right but after dev...ive got my program the way i want it 19:42:37 jimi_hendrix: If this is ever going to be the case, you'll have enough expertise to figure out how to use the function sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die 19:43:05 tcr, ok 19:43:46 Or you'll just use a shell-script wrapper. 19:43:50 jimi_hendrix: the result of that function is an .exe file, or an elf file respectively. 19:44:06 jimi_hendrix: you can upload for your users to download and run 19:44:46 -!- nicolas [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:45:01 ok cool 19:45:09 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 19:46:31 and noob question 19:46:47 difference between binding and storing stuff 19:46:49 ? 19:46:59 jimi_hendrix: Has anyone pointed you to the book Practical Common Lisp already? 19:47:11 yes 19:48:05 Approximately, binding creates a new lhs initialized to some value, while storing assigns or modifies an existing lhs 19:48:30 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:48:49 ok 19:50:26 jimi_hendrix: Just a small tidbit; in Common Lisp, you can define arbitrary lhs yourself. 19:51:13 example 1 line snippit 19:51:32 i know basic scheme and the only way to store values is (define x 1) 19:51:46 In variables you mean? 19:51:50 You're confused. 19:52:00 I recommend reading through Practical Common Lisp. 19:55:11 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:55:21 jimi_hendrix: only way to store values? SET! is one of that most _basic_ scheme forms 19:55:39 fusss, your right... 19:55:43 *jimi_hendrix* hits head 19:56:10 ...ah well off to reading the book 19:56:41 it's ok, at least you didn't write a blog post about it :-) 19:57:00 -!- xan [n=xan@81.184.160.8.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:00:21 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:07:13 disumu [n=disumu@p57A26FC2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:08 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:17 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.62.19] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:26 wouldn't have been the first time... 20:20:15 fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:50 -!- binarycodes is now known as binarycodes_ 20:26:06 -!- binarycodes_ is now known as binarycodes 20:27:10 A_Tuin [n=zealot@183.Red-83-61-97.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:17 hi everyone 20:27:58 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:29:30 where does slime output trace info? 20:29:55 anyone using Prodigy? 20:34:31 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.248.69] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:39:40 -!- acieroid [n=acieroid@20.110-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:01 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:40:35 acieroid [n=acieroid@20.110-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:40:50 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:47 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-206-137.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:37 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has joined #lisp 20:49:34 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:51:21 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.196.89] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 20:51:29 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.196.89] has joined #lisp 20:52:11 -!- binarycodes is now known as binarycodes_ 20:54:18 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:57:46 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:01:12 -!- H4ns [n=hans@dialin-145-254-062-083.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:01:25 H4ns [n=hans@dialin-145-254-065-240.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:38 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:03:53 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:08 -!- Irregardless [n=Aankhen@122.163.225.159] has quit ["RED ALERT! Tagline theft! Raise shields! Arm photons! Lock on phasers!"] 21:06:34 durr 21:06:49 Anyone have a suggestion for a unit testing framework for CL? 21:07:04 write one? 21:07:08 I see that http://www.cliki.net/test framework has a fair few, but if someone has a good opinion of a few... 21:07:15 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-206-137.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:07:21 eflynn: I'm already knee-deep in writing an emulator compiler, I'd rather not sidetrack :) 21:08:14 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.75.39] has joined #lisp 21:08:41 danderson: RT is very light and works, for some definition of works 21:08:52 I can't speak of others 21:09:26 danderson: have you seen this? might help you out: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-building-a-unit-test-framework.html 21:09:27 what's the simplest way to clear an array 21:09:28 ? 21:09:30 (its only test type is "did this code return a value EQUAL (iirc) to this specified value") 21:09:35 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-206-137.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:48 aggieben: FILL or (setf fill-pointer) depending on what you mean 21:09:52 eflynn: I have seen it. I just specifically don't want to spend time rolling my own. I have enough problems as it is. 21:09:53 danderson: http://aperiodic.net/phil/archives/Geekery/notes-on-lisp-testing-frameworks.html 21:10:21 locklace: cheers. 21:10:31 kpreid: thanks as well, looking 21:17:05 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:17:06 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:20:41 kpreid: that's great, thanks. 21:26:59 eflynn pasted "implement a semaphore" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72881 21:27:16 folks, take a look at that paste and tell me what you think 21:29:46 where is the lisp newbies chan? 21:30:10 -!- binarycodes_ is now known as sujoy 21:30:12 eflynn: Have a look at symbol-value, maybe? 21:30:32 eflynn: Then consider that there's no way this would be thread-safe. 21:30:38 -!- sujoy is now known as binarycodes 21:32:03 should i use setq instead? like (setq *sem1* (wait *sem1*)) 21:32:47 Umm... Not exactly, no. 21:33:09 The whole pass-by-reference / pass-by-value thing is typically dealt with fairly early on by most lisp books. 21:33:31 oh 21:33:46 couldn't find it anywhere 21:33:54 i thought it always passed by reference 21:34:15 It always passes by value, it's just that a lot of values are references. 21:34:27 ok. 21:34:45 eflynn: How about (defclass semaphore ....) ;) 21:35:02 The whole nomenclature of `pass-by-reference' and `pass-by-value' is confused and confusing. 21:35:07 True. 21:35:15 It should be abolished completely. 21:35:25 Especially since fixnums are pass-by-value and bignums are pass-by-reference... 21:35:28 Also I have not yet looked at the usb stuff. My cold is killing me here :( 21:35:30 ugh 21:35:34 what do i do 21:35:42 schme_: I'm sorry to hear that. I hope you feel better soon. 21:36:12 nyef: Me too. It is clearing up though. Last few days have been sitting around with no energy to even start up slime :) 21:36:37 eflynn, in Lisp at each point in a program, a name has a meaning determined by the lexical environment at that point. When the name means a variable, there is a location for a value associated with it. For example, when I write (LET ((X 5)) ...), Lisp creates a location for a value, stores 5 in that location, and associates that location with the name X as a variable. 21:37:23 Riastradh, i see 21:37:50 eflynn, similarly, when I write (DEFUN F (X) ...), Lisp creates a function named F (actually, a name can have several different meanings, depending on the context in which it is used; we could also have a variable named F, but that's irrelevant for now), and when someone calls F with some argument, Lisp creates a location for a value, stores the argument in that location, and associates that location with the name X as a variable. 21:38:40 Okay, time for me to go start clearing the driveway of snow. I'll be back in a bit. 21:38:41 that's called lexically scoping right? 21:38:49 SETQ stores a new value in the location associated with a variable. So if I write (DEFUN F (X) (SETQ X (G X)) ...), when someone calls F with an argument, Lisp will create a location, store the argument in that location, and associate that location with the name X as a variable. Then... 21:39:09 Lisp will pass the value in X's location to the function G, and will store whatever G returns in X's location. 21:39:29 -!- elurin [n=user@85.104.129.185] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:34 Note, however, that G knows nothing about the *location* where its argument came from. All it knows is the value passed as its argument. 21:40:00 ok i guess that makes sense 21:40:03 Neither does F know anything about the location where its argument came from. For example, I could have written (F (+ 1 2)), and F would be perfectly happy. 21:40:37 (Here there was not even a location involved in F's argument; there was only a value!) 21:40:47 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 21:40:57 The SETQ in F does not affect the location where F's argument came from, if any; it affects only the location associated with the local variable named X, in the scope of F's body. 21:41:23 ... Plan B: Clear the driveway tomorrow. 21:41:45 Do it next year! 21:41:51 That too! 21:43:53 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:44:29 Riastradh, ok i'm going to try that out, brb 21:45:33 i'm putting everything off till next year, mostly 21:46:29 I'm half-wondering if I should try and get any more hacking done in the seven and a quarter hours or thereabouts left in the year. 21:49:05 i was wondering the same, but about sleep. 21:49:12 -!- eflynn [n=evan@65-183-142-159-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net] has left #lisp 21:49:18 these `vacation' days have killed me 21:49:31 Here the wondering is about chocolate mousse. 21:49:44 eflynn [n=evan@65-183-142-159-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:52 At least it isn't about styling mousse. 21:50:07 Ah no, my hair is too short :) 21:50:53 Riastradh, i tried (defun wait (s) (setq s (1- s))), for some reason it isn't changing the value, just evaluating 21:50:59 rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 21:51:21 -!- H4ns [n=hans@dialin-145-254-065-240.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:51:31 eflynn: That's because s was a different place than you were looking for the changed value. 21:51:32 Values don't change. At least if they're numbers. 21:51:33 eflynn: erm, which value do you think it should be changing? 21:51:40 than where you were. 21:51:43 eflynn, what that function will do is store a new value in the location locally associated with the name X. 21:51:51 eflynn, no other part of the program knows about this location but your function WAIT. 21:51:52 eflynn: what *location* do you think setq is changing there? 21:51:52 Riastradh, ok, i see what you meean 21:51:55 and `value' isn't quite right (but we knew what you meant) 21:51:59 Storing a new value there won't have any visible effect. 21:52:25 i want it to change *sem1* 21:52:31 You need to pass an object that has a location which other parts of the program can see. 21:52:51 Riastradh, oh, ok 21:52:52 For example, if you create a cons, associated with that pair will be two locations, for its car and its cdr. 21:52:58 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A26FC2.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 21:53:37 pronunciation of CLISP is like clips or c-lisp? 21:53:39 Riastradh: Psst. "pair" is scheme terminology, not CL. 21:53:39 Riastradh, so if i pass a one-element list it would work? 21:53:42 If you define WAIT so that it increments the car of a cons passed to it, and if you create a cons and pass it to WAIT, you can observe a new value in the car of that cons after WAIT returns. 21:53:59 nyef, oops, sorry. I edited one instance but forgot about the other. 21:54:43 antoni [n=antoni@27.Red-79-153-207.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:04 eflynn, yes. Conses have locations that can be referred to independently of lexical scope. Local variables, however, are always integrally tied to lexical scope, and can never be shared directly by lexically distant parts of a program. 21:55:37 "Never" is a long time. There are ways, but they aren't portable. 21:55:52 In ANSI Common Lisp, nyef. 21:56:14 Right. But nobody uses an implementation that -only- does ANSI Common Lisp. 21:58:06 FZ [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/fz] has joined #lisp 22:00:27 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 22:00:43 what's wrong with this: (let (x '(5)) (wait x)) 22:00:49 sbcl gives me an error 22:01:03 let takes a list of bindings, not just one 22:01:10 Something about QUOTE not being a valid variable name? 22:01:25 (Hint, the error you're heading straight for is the one about modifying literal data.) 22:01:31 (let ((x '(5))) ...) note the outer parens 22:02:20 pjb [n=t@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 22:02:49 nyef: right... clearly i need more practice 22:03:06 nyef: anyway, i modified signal and wait so that it does a setq on the car of a list 22:03:18 seems to work 22:03:25 ... setq or setf? 22:03:49 setq... gah, what's the difference again? 22:03:57 (Clearly, if people are still tempted to use setq, there's revisionism to be done!) 22:03:59 eflynn: just use setf. 22:04:16 Try this: (defun f (x) (let ((l '(5))) (prog1 (car l) (setf (car l) x)))) 22:04:21 Then call F with several different arguments. 22:04:25 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:04:40 i am reading "on lisp" by paul graham and setq is littered everywhere 22:04:42 (Assume that PROG1 has the incorrect semantics that everyone implements.) 22:04:45 is setq out of style or something? 22:04:49 Riastradh: Umm... Modifying literal data again? 22:04:55 eflynn: graham is out of style ;) 22:04:57 Yes, nyef, to illustrate a point. 22:05:18 eflynn: Yeah, setq is basically only good for symbols. Setf is good for "generalized places". 22:05:22 I was looking up a comamnd run-shell-command, which I read all over that it is supposed to be in the core. 22:05:32 Riastradh: And what incorrect PROG1 semantics are those? 22:05:46 I thought it was PROG2 with the broken semantics as specified? 22:05:54 Oops. You're right, sorry. 22:06:33 eflynn: is "on lisp" the first book you're working your way through? 22:07:26 TDT: If that's supposed to be common-lisp, it sounds like a vendor extension to me. 22:07:26 That wasn't a solid question, ahah..ok, so run-shell-command, anyone use that much before? For some reason through sbcl it's not recognizing it, and I don't see any "packages" for it. 22:07:50 Perhaps you want run-program? 22:07:51 nyef: reading this, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/lw50/LWRM/html/lwref-708.htm 22:07:58 TDT: look where you got it 22:08:15 note it says "Package system" 22:08:16 Hrm... Lispworks manuals, non-lispworks implementation... 22:08:44 salex: various books... first i read practical common lisp, then parts of "on lisp", currently working my way through an ocaml book to get my feet in the functional paradigm 22:08:44 Hmmm, so package system then just means it's a vendor extension? 22:08:48 Since that is not a standardized package name, it must be from somewhere else. Probably LispWorks itself. 22:09:07 as for common lisp, what books are good? 22:09:38 TDT: When considering a symbol which you hear has a useful definition, step 1 is to figure out what package it is in, and step 2 is to figure out how, if at all, that package might be defined in your system 22:10:19 we have (1) those packages specified by the CL standard, (2) those packages part of your implementation, and (3) those packages defined by loading libraries 22:10:56 Group 1 is the KEYWORD package, the COMMON-LISP package and the COMMON-LISP-USER package. 22:11:13 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-189.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Excess Flood] 22:11:35 Unless you're working with CLtL1, in which case lose the "COMMON-" bit. 22:11:41 Hmm, I see..interesting. Still new to all this, thanks for explaining it. Gotta figure out how to simply run "ls" now, hehe. 22:12:05 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-206-137.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:12:06 Umm... It's called DIRECTORY. :-P 22:12:07 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 22:12:33 eflynn: PCL is goodness. 22:12:43 nyef: hah, well, this is just an example, eventualy I want to get the output of svn diff, and to do regular expression matching..which I know how to do already. 22:12:54 nyef: You're right though :) 22:13:28 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 22:13:39 schme_, it's ok, but it doesn't really explain how the language itself works 22:13:51 which is what i have so much trouble with 22:14:01 Oh hmm.. 22:14:07 I'm not sure there. 22:14:44 eflynn: hyperspec + hacking code + Riastradh ;) 22:15:36 Kinda cool, run-program works, foudn a nice example for it, kinda. Output doesn't exist, but meh. 22:16:07 what is wrong with "on lisp" though... is it out of date? 22:16:24 nothing particularly wrong with it for what it is 22:16:36 it's not a language intro, or a general guide 22:16:50 TDT: Have it output to a temp file, then read the temp file? 22:16:59 it's full of graham-isms, and grahams own quirky take on things 22:17:11 And Graham doesn't even like common lisp. 22:17:18 it has some neat insight into macros 22:17:25 but you have to balance that against the bad 22:17:29 nyef: Rather just read it to memory, would be much more simple in the long run. 22:17:35 as nyef notes, graham doesn't liek CL, and it shows 22:17:52 so in short: it's a lousy intro to CL 22:18:14 TDT: That... might not work so well. ISTR that RUN-PROGRAM has some weaknesses, and I think that might have been one of them. 22:18:22 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:18:28 salex, oh i see, he's not talking about CL, just lisp? 22:19:20 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:19:36 worse: he doesn't like CL, so he talks only about the bits he's happy with, and how to bend it to be more graham-ish. which is ok, if you know what he's skipping/dismissing 22:20:01 minion: Graham crackers? 22:20:01 Graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 22:20:02 nyef: This is a good thing that should work: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/35f41283b4ac738b -- requires creating a function, but oh well 22:20:15 salex: fair enough. know any good books on CL? i can go torrent some 22:20:16 anyway, must run. if you want' more intro stuff look at PAIP 22:21:29 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A27D7E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 22:22:42 salex: by norvig? 22:23:00 indeed 22:23:02 bbiaw 22:23:10 -!- salex [n=user@ardbeg.math.uwaterloo.ca] has left #lisp 22:23:34 -!- eflynn [n=evan@65-183-142-159-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:24:38 TDT: Yeah, basically this sort of thing is problematic. Best of luck. 22:25:13 if you like Scheme, you'll agree with Graham most of the time 22:25:33 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:25:48 nyef: Yeah, given the need for just output and passing almost nothing complicated, I hope it'll work OK...but not sure :) 22:26:02 That's not really true, Adamant. 22:26:15 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-54-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:26:16 evan_ [n=evan@65-183-142-159-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:05 is there a way to loop over multiple lists in one construct? I suppose it wouldn't be that hard to slap together a macro for that, but are there any in CL? 22:28:38 aggieben: In one lexical construct? Well, you could do it in a TAGBODY... 22:28:39 Riastradh: that was my perception at least 22:28:40 is anybody else seeing these "rudybot" things? 22:28:52 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 22:29:05 Not in this channel, rpg. 22:29:07 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 22:29:21 Riastradh: thanks. Must be a client weirdness. 22:29:22 any book recommendations? 22:29:26 nyef: one lexical construct is what I mean. 22:29:28 aggieben: do you mean in parallel, series, or cartesian product? 22:29:29 *aggieben* looks at tagboy 22:29:43 I like "tagboy" ... 22:29:58 kpreid: I just mean I want something like (dolist (var1 var2 list1 list2) body) 22:30:01 happy new year! () 22:30:04 aggieben: do you mean in parallel, series, or cartesian product? 22:30:06 Oh, right, if you're iterating the lists in parallel, LOOP works. 22:30:08 aggieben: You want LOOP 22:30:16 to anyone at gmt+2 22:30:18 aggieben: Actually you want ITERATE ;) 22:30:21 rpg: I suggest using tagboy as the name for the successor to with-html-output 22:30:24 oudeis, bah 22:30:34 evan_: PCL is recommended. 22:30:42 evan_: bah? 22:30:43 kpreid: by analogy with "batboy." 22:30:48 schme_, besides that one ;) 22:30:56 PAIP was fun. 22:31:01 i don't wanna do anything "practical" 22:31:10 what about the one by guy steele 22:31:12 "tagboy," a minion who writes HTML for money. 22:31:22 derogatory. 22:31:26 schme_: iterate? 22:31:26 Ok.. Unpractical Common Lisp. That sounds good. 22:31:44 aggieben: Well it's not a part of CL, you need some extra package. LOOP will do you just fine :) 22:31:49 evan_: Maybe you need "Impractical INTERCAL." 22:31:58 aggieben: (loop for a in list2 for b in list2 ...) 22:32:05 aggieben: ehm a in list1 :) 22:32:37 evan_: I'm a bit partial to Lisp in Small Pieces. But it may not be what you're looking for. 22:32:44 my problem with pcl is that it just shows you all these snippets and says "look at this! ISN'T THAT COOL" and i'm left scratching my head over what the hell i'm supposed to do 22:32:59 schme_: right. I was just looking for a symbol ITERATE and not finding it :-) 22:33:03 Oh I should have recommended LiSP to eflynn. 22:33:36 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:33:48 evan_: What are you trying to do though? :) No book will help you there ;) 22:33:58 schme_, learn functional programming 22:34:05 Oh. 22:34:10 schme_, from the ground up 22:34:16 evan_: I'd suggest some of the FP litterature then. :) 22:34:25 -!- antoni [n=antoni@27.Red-79-153-207.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:35:34 evan_: At risk of getting the anrgy gods of #lisp haunting me forever, I'd recommend you popping over to #haskell if your main interest is learning FP :) 22:36:05 #scheme would also work 22:37:04 well, maybe if i can get my semaphore example working in CL, then i'll go back and dick with ocaml and perhaps haskell as you mentioned :) 22:37:10 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:37:39 Adamant: Is there any good litterature for learning FP in schemeworld though? I mean haskell has all the "craft of functional programming" and what not. 22:37:49 Oh you're the semaphore guy. 22:37:56 eflynn! 22:38:02 oh sorry 22:38:04 -!- evan_ is now known as eflynn 22:38:13 there 22:38:17 schme_: don't use set! ? 22:38:26 eflynn: Here's a book recommendation. Lisp in Small Pieces 22:38:26 Don't use setf 22:38:29 Adamant: hehehe :) 22:38:39 LiSP is also great 22:38:49 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 22:38:54 pjb: sorry for talking up other languages in here 22:38:57 eflynn: It shows you lisp from the ground up. It does not show you FP from the ground up though :) 22:39:10 -!- dys```````` is now known as dys 22:39:11 Adamant: np, but you can do fp in CL too. 22:39:38 very true, but some CL'ers get upset by it 22:39:52 Problem here seems to be the lack of FP litterature though. 22:40:08 most Scheme style is fairy FP 22:40:12 *fairly 22:40:14 PCL being too practical, and not teaching FP. I can't think of a CL book that teaches FP. 22:40:51 eflynn: So that's the plan. You go around with the other channels and learn all the FP stuff, then when you actually want to do something you come back to CL ;) 22:41:27 schme_, ok, fair enough. but what do i need to do to get the semaphore working properly? 22:41:29 Maybe I'm missing something, what's FP? 22:41:37 TDT: functional programming 22:41:38 TDT: Functional Programming. 22:41:47 Ah ok. 22:41:48 ie. programming without setf 22:41:50 eflynn: Oh I thought that was already sorted out ? 22:42:06 schme_, nope, i'm still confused :) 22:42:20 eflynn: I mean with passing conses instead. Personally I'd do a (defclass semaphore () ((value))) 22:42:57 But I'm crazy like that ;) 22:43:21 but there must be some underlying functionality for defclass 22:43:46 i.e. it's just a macro 22:43:54 Well sure. You do a (defmethod semaphore-wait ((semaphore semaphore)) ...) 22:43:54 right/ 22:44:27 Well sure. 22:44:49 eflynn: Actually if you're interested in how that works the art of the metaobject protocol (book) has a good bit on implementing that sorta stuff. :) 22:44:54 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:45:06 eflynn: But seriously; Lisp in Small Pieces :) 22:45:24 hey, it does work 22:45:28 oh, didn't know you must leave the thread that calls swank:create-server alone.. 22:45:37 eflynn: What part of the previous semaphore thing was confusing you? 22:45:37 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:46:11 oh it seems they're starting with the fireworks here :) I'll be back next year 22:47:06 i dunno. Riastradh wrote an example with a defun and a prog1 and said try this with different arguments and i put it in the interpreter and it gave me an error and then i was like ??? 22:47:11 ;) 22:48:01 eflynn: you used a self modifying program. 22:48:09 i did (defvar *sem1* '(0)). wait and signal use decf and incf respectively and it seems to work 22:48:30 eflynn: if your implementation gave you an error, good for you. Some don't. 22:49:14 pjb pasted "self modifying" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72882 22:49:59 err, it was a warning actually 22:49:59 ok 22:50:21 It's not conformant to modify a literal like that. 22:50:27 may i ask what prog1 does 22:50:33 Dextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 22:50:35 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:50:38 clhs prog1 22:50:54 eflynn: do you know what progN does? 22:50:59 pjb: yeah 22:51:10 same, only instead of N, 1. 22:51:14 pjb: evaluates several forms and returns the last one 22:51:21 Yes, the Nth one. 22:51:38 so, in the example, it returns (car l) ? 22:51:48 The value of, yes. 22:53:23 why is this bad? 22:53:31 i.e. modifying a literal 22:53:57 For one thing, once you compile this function, the behavior may (and probably will) be different. 22:54:16 And it's simply not conformant: it's entirely implementation dependant what happens. 22:54:55 pjb: so..... would it be more correct to put the let outside of the defun so you have closure? 22:55:01 if i'm saying that right 22:55:26 Yes, and using (list 5) instead of '(5). 22:55:52 oh god, there's a difference between (list 5) and '(5)?? 22:55:59 A very big one yes. 22:56:12 *bang head here* 22:56:26 ok thanks for all your patience, i think i'll try something else 22:56:26 (eq '(5) '(5)) may return true. (eq (list 5) (list 5)) will always return nil. 22:57:10 pjb: because they are two different lists that happen to have the same values? 22:58:08 when compiling (eq '(5) '(5)), the implementation may collapse the literal and do as if (eq '#1=(5) '#1#). 22:58:09 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.75.39] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:58:32 list always return a different cons (unless it's called without arguments in which case it always returns NIL). 22:58:44 (format t "~:(~@{~35r~^ ~}~)!" 25970909 28697 1475277) 22:58:44 what is the shorthand for (list 5) 22:58:45 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:53 eflynn: there's none. 22:58:59 k 22:59:02 Programming is not a question of shorthands. 22:59:14 pjb: i'm sorry, "syntactic sugar" 22:59:47 (list 5) is already the "syntactic sugar", for (cons 5 nil) 23:00:49 theundertaker [n=NTFS@c-76-127-209-26.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:57 so then what happens when lisp encounters '(a b c) 23:01:51 Too long to explain in irc. 23:01:55 k 23:02:20 lispm [n=joswig@e177154177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:02:30 check http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_b.htm 23:03:41 The result is that the reader builds the sexp: (CL:QUOTE (A B C)) and when this is evaluated, it returns (A B C). 23:03:48 This is the (A B C) that the reader built. 23:04:52 eflynn: the lesson here is that the lisp reader is a lisp program like any other. It has no special magic powers to read lisp objects. 23:05:34 eflynn: You can build the same objects as the lisp reader: (cons 'quote (cons (cons 'a (cons 'b (cons 'c nil))) nil)) 23:06:21 Well: (cons 'quote (cons (cons (intern "A") (cons (intern "B") (cons (intern "C") nil))) nil)) 23:07:15 basically, it's to prevent the evaluator from evaluating it 23:07:32 everything is taken as a literal 23:07:51 but you can't modify it... because it's a literal, right? 23:07:53 eflynn: have you seen the source of EVAL? 23:07:58 happy new year 23:08:08 heard about it 23:08:18 sicp talks about it for scheme 23:08:25 there's a (case (first form) ... ((quote) (second form)) ...) in there. That's all you need to know. 23:08:57 I mean, that's all there is to it. 23:09:12 see that's the thing, i know bits and pieces of things but don't have enough practical knowledge 23:09:29 when it comes to functional languages 23:09:32 scheme, lisp... 23:09:42 i know prolog pretty well 23:09:43 eflynn: this has nothing to do with functional programming. 23:09:51 pjb: oh, ok, true 23:09:59 It has all to do with the essence of lisp, which is a meta programming programming language. 23:10:20 so i'm confused by ML is what i mean 23:10:24 Lisp is more than FP. It's a multiprogramming programming language. 23:10:25 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:10:33 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:50 multiparadigm I mean. Sorry, it's late. 23:10:59 i knew what you meantt 23:11:25 -!- younder [n=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 23:11:30 Lisp is a programmable programming language 23:11:38 not just multi-paradigm 23:11:46 yes, that's what bugs me 23:11:52 it alllows the user to add new paradigms 23:11:53 it's so powerful... 23:12:02 that i have trouble wrapping my head around it 23:12:02 -!- theundertaker is now known as NTFS 23:12:11 start small 23:12:20 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:12:29 eflynn: but if you're interested in FP, you don't need to bother with that. Just avoid mutating operators such as setf, and use recursion and higher level functions such as mapcar and reduce. 23:12:29 ocaml can do the same stuff, right? 23:12:40 Norvig: http://norvig.com/21-days.html 23:12:47 Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years 23:12:47 Yes, ocaml is FP too. 23:12:48 happy new year 23:13:07 ocaml is very different from Lisp 23:13:31 powerful, but different 23:13:50 lispm: can you write a ocaml interpreter in ocaml? 23:13:58 sure, 23:14:00 Is it turing complete? 23:14:05 why not? 23:14:35 Though the first ML was written in Lisp 23:15:09 eflynn: however, once you've said that it's turing complete, you could compare the source of an ocaml interpreter in ocaml vs. the sources of lisp in lisp, which stands on two pages. 23:15:25 One find-print page. 23:15:29 fine 23:15:51 well, that lisp interpreter assumes a bit runtime is reused 23:17:14 how many of you have CS degrees 23:17:31 I don't. But I have a pol sci degree if it counts ;) 23:18:35 just curious :) 23:18:56 Most of us probably. 23:18:57 i'm working on an undergraduate 23:20:06 eflynn: Cool man! 23:20:16 -!- NTFS is now known as TheUnderTaker 23:21:33 A new year. 23:21:44 i was considering doing math but i realized cs professors do a lot of applied math anyway 23:21:47 Time for ................ a .... 23:21:56 beer 23:22:00 new open parentheses 23:22:09 to start a new program: 23:22:10 ( 23:22:17 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:22:33 "these are your father's parentheses" 23:22:50 eflynn: Also math people have a bad sense of humor. So you're better off. Math jokes are *no* fun :) 23:23:37 math is ok but it kills your gpa 23:23:48 at least for me 23:23:49 No idea what gpa is :) 23:23:53 grade point average 23:23:54 marks 23:24:02 oh ok. 23:24:09 Ya math is fun. It is just the jokes! 23:24:50 mathgirl, unable to integrate with society, only with functions of x 23:27:11 "Shopping is hard, let's do math!" 23:30:37 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 23:31:44 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:33:38 There's math joke graffiti on a lot of the walls in Cambridge, it's a bit random. 23:33:53 speaking of teaching programming in ten years, i once read a "teach yourself c++ in 21 days". 23:33:59 took me more than 21 days 23:34:06 that was eight years ago 23:34:13 slow learner! :-) 23:34:35 roughly 21 days to learn, years to unlearn. 23:34:36 durr 23:34:50 schme_, heh, i take it you don't like c++ 23:35:06 -!- dysinger [n=tim@166.129.61.167] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:35:22 eflynn: I honestly feel very little for or against it :) I'm just happy I don't use it. 23:35:42 Since AT&T couldn't compete in IT field, they financed this project to mine IT corps worldwide. 23:37:10 why isn't your slime functions shared among eachother ? I'd like to refresh my dotemacs.. 23:37:41 schme_, there are some annoying things about it, yes. like having to write a const and non-const versions of a particular overloaded operator, even though in most cases they have the same code. 23:37:47 i can't remember which operator offhand 23:38:06 Oh ok. 23:38:23 pjb: Clearly they learned a thing or two from when people started taking C and Unix seriously... 23:38:25 and the garbage collection :) 23:38:41 schme_, what garbage collection? :) 23:38:58 Yes, that one. 23:39:10 nyef: yes, they learned they didn't earn anything from it because of the politicians, so they invented C++ with a vengeance. 23:39:40 I mean, what other theory would there be for the calamity C++ is? 23:40:22 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 23:40:48 Is it that much worse than straight C ? 23:41:04 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-67-36-58-203.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:07 actually nevermind. 23:41:09 it suffers from featuritis, i think 23:41:23 you can keep C in your head, good luck with c++ 23:42:32 what I meant was, I'm looking for a key press to send all modification in all buffers to the image. Is that possible ? 23:43:01 lhz: yes. Write a little emacs lisp function to do that, it's easy. 23:43:17 what is 'image' in emacs anyway 23:43:22 M-x Compile Changed Definitions 23:43:24 emacs keep saying 'loading image' 23:43:29 ah, wait, that's Zmacs 23:44:12 eflynn: While doing what? I don't think I've ever seen emacs say that :) 23:45:09 schme_, i'm running emacs22 on debiann 23:45:23 I dont like sending each form by m-x-e because eventually I would forget. So I thought someone is already thinking this way. 23:46:14 eflynn: Maybe it's loading some .png or something. I'm no gnumacs expert so I'll just stay away from this :) 23:47:11 -!- TDT [n=TDT@143.108.177.207.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:47:50 'image' is the Common Lisp that Emacs is talking to via SLIME 23:47:59 aha 23:48:20 a saved Lisp usually is called an image 23:50:48 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:50:59 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 23:51:21 is it possible to let emacs highlight the matching parent that is under the cursor ? 23:51:45 yes, 23:51:56 lhz: (paren-set-mode 'paren) (paren-activate) 23:52:21 which cursor, the text cursor or the mouse cursor? 23:52:40 -!- acieroid [n=acieroid@20.110-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:52:50 cursor vs. pointer 23:53:03 -!- TheUnderTaker [n=NTFS@c-76-127-209-26.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:53:12 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-189.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:53:28 lispm: when I walk through code I like to put the cursor on an ) to watch where it match. 23:53:50 isn't it by default on? 23:53:59 in SLIME/Emacs? 23:54:09 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:55:07 lispm: no cursor would highlight the son of the ( 23:56:01 lhz: What emacs are you on? 23:56:48 schme: sorry but how would I quickly evaluate that in emacs ? .. emacs 22.2.1 23:57:17 ok then it is something else. Hang on and I'll build one to see. 23:57:42 I was under the impression that highlighting matching parentheses is standard in all kinds of Emacs versions 23:58:41 but maybe I don't understand the question this late 23:59:23 I'm using viper. If that could be it. I must press a (append) to put the cursor beyond the last paren to get it to highlight.