00:00:00 What was interesting to me was that some other folks I interviewed also disagreed with Dijkstra on this point. But with Knuth it was more or less a peer talking about him. 00:01:38 gigamonkey: nice! 00:02:18 incoherent! 00:03:02 hefner: transcripts usually are. It'll be edited. 00:03:19 gigamonkey: I had the privilege of talking to Dijkstra quite regularly when I was in Austin on my sabbatical, and he often said things that were controversial, just in order to make people think. 00:03:25 Knuth is actually quite good in terms of how he will be to edit--you can drop out a few false starts and it actually all connects together. 00:03:36 That's not been true of all my subjects . 00:03:38 *hefner* wonders how that works 00:04:09 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177159177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:05:43 manpages_rule, lisp is in a way a "programmable programming language" 00:06:31 manpages_rule, and indeed, when you have lisp, you can transform the language into anything you want. 00:06:58 manpages_rule, the catch being that when you try doing that, very soon you're pretty much on your own. 00:07:19 (which is quite OK if you're only experimenting for yourself) 00:09:13 -!- carbocalm [i=carbocal@69-196-191-6.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:09:35 gigamonkey annotated #72594 with "How editing works" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72594#1 00:10:01 gigamonkey, will you let him review the edited version? 00:10:03 lispm [n=joswig@e177154044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 00:10:09 hefner: that's a rough cut. If you compare the two versions, it's almost all done by deletion. (I think I maybe transposed two words.) 00:10:29 Fare: for this book yes, mostly to make sure that I haven't garbled any technical content. 00:12:26 carbocalm [i=carbocal@206-248-174-193.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:13:12 Fare: I am afraid you are not only wasting your time with manpages_rule, but also encouraging this kind of annoying behavior. 00:16:17 -!- hh_fuu [n=h@p5B17D95F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:18:12 manpages_rule: it works, because the programmer strives for an understandable application. You take the parts of other languages that you need. That and what Fare said will be understoon once you learn the language :) 00:18:41 -!- manpages_rule [i=92731f8f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bda1b07aec724eff] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 00:18:42 beach: it could be an honoust question, you having an interesting conversation has nothing to do with people not grasping what they read 00:18:52 and now, it's bedtime for me, nighty all 00:19:20 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:19:21 madnificent: Sleep well. 00:19:27 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.122.211] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:22:54 madnificent: It could be, but I don't think so. There are almost never any demands for clarification, any followup questions, any remarks, just a new, unrelated question. 00:24:40 blitz_ [n=julian@pD95D48AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:39 clhs 19.2.2.4.3 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/19_bbdc.htm says "The directory might be a string, ..." -- what does a string mean here? Is this an error in the spec? A known error? 00:26:39 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 00:27:06 Fare: I'd assume it was some bit of lattitude for filesystems without hierarchical directories. 00:27:35 gigamonkey, which would contradict 19.2.2.4.3.1 linked at the end 00:28:33 I don't think so. That section describes "the only valid list values for the directory component" 00:28:35 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-017-025.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:43 Which says nothing about valid "string" values. 00:29:15 Presumably on a non-hierarchical filesystem a directory component of "string" could be interpreted as equivalent to (:absolute "string") 00:29:21 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:09 ok - so directory as string would be for non-hierarchical filesystems? 00:30:16 this is not clear 00:30:44 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16AE80.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:34:05 w00t 00:34:31 Fare, is there anything that actually forbids an implementation interpreting a string directory component on a hierarchical system? 00:34:42 If not, then an implementation could perhaps choose to do so. 00:34:48 where are the 700 built-in functions list and description? 00:34:55 jao [n=user@172.Red-81-32-181.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:58 In the CLHS 00:35:06 *Fare* writes a thin layer of pathname abstraction/restriction in XCVB to ensure considered pathnames can be deterministically and somewhat portably translated to/from strings. 00:35:09 is this included in sbcl? 00:35:14 700? That seems to be a suspiciously round number. 00:35:22 is it like a man page or what? 00:35:23 Fare: have you looked at cl-fad 00:35:33 gigamonkey, not in a while 00:35:34 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:35:34 Heh. Was just thinking of mentioning cl-fad. 00:35:35 It's a hypertext version of the language spec. 00:35:47 gigamonkey, do you handle the restriction part? 00:36:02 What do you mean by 'restriction'? 00:36:08 gigamonkey: was that answer to me? 00:36:13 breinded: yes. 00:36:31 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:31 and clhs stands for ...? 00:36:44 nyef: round up the number of symbols in COMMON-LISP to the nearest 100 and you get 700, right? 00:36:51 Common Lisp Hyper Spec 00:36:54 clhs 00:36:57 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:58 bah. 00:37:11 minion: clhs? 00:37:11 clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS . 00:37:14 gigamonkey: I want to reject pathnames that aren't guaranteed to be reasonably portable 00:37:17 thank nyef. 00:37:42 -!- Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.3.122.211] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:46 such as having #\. in the type or #\> or #\: or #\\ or #\< anywhere, etc. 00:37:53 there is an VMS example that uses a string as a directory in the CLHS 00:37:58 maybe also having non-ASCII characters 00:38:07 Ah. Doesn't handle that. 00:38:23 non-free??!!! 00:38:27 wtf 00:38:37 But that seems like a reasonable addition so maybe if you do write such a thing you could contribute it to Edi. 00:38:56 are these official specs? 00:39:05 breinded: it's a hypertext version of the ANSI spec. 00:39:22 how can lisp SPECS be non-free, ridiculous 00:39:39 It's free enough for most reasonable purposes. 00:39:46 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-050-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:39:55 Free as in beer anyway. What do you need? 00:40:02 *gigamonkey* needs free beer. 00:40:16 free tibet 00:40:33 gigamonkey, also I want to be able to extract URIs from pathnames, so that for instance, a file in project "foo.com/xyzzy" with relative path "bar/quux.lisp" could be associated the path xcvb://foo.com/xyzzy/bar/quux.lisp 00:40:36 free tibetian beer maybe 00:40:52 even if the local filesystem uses ">" as a directory separator 00:41:44 *Fare* is glad though that separating builder from buildee means no qualms about using zillions of libraries in the builder. 00:41:56 I would never have asdf depend on cl-fad. 00:41:58 breinded: Normally, international standards are not even available on the Web. You have to pay lots of money to get a paper copy. Lispers are privileged that way. 00:42:25 for SML one has to buy a book 00:42:29 beach: no -- we only have (derivatives of) a *draft* for the standard 00:42:39 (FORTHers have the same) 00:42:58 I'm sure SML guys have draft standards circulating here and there 00:43:08 Fare: still, that's a much better situation that that of other standards. 00:43:12 five cheers for dependency wrangling 00:43:27 is ansi a gov agency? 00:43:30 hefner, wrangling? 00:43:37 jestocost [n=cmell@cad43e-121.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:43:38 what do lispers use for unit testing 00:43:42 Hmmm. The Tibetan beer-alike Chhaang is reputed to cure conditions like the common cold, fever, allergic rhinitis, and ... alcoholism! 00:43:43 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a9b-145.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:43:52 ansi = american national standards institute (yes) 00:43:52 breinded: I suspect it is private. Most standard organizations are. 00:44:02 lispm, tibet has about one chinese policeman per tibetan family. Ain't gonna be free anytime soon. 00:44:16 it is no longer ANSI 00:44:32 interesting bootstrapping problem - you ensure none of XCVB's dependencies can switch to XCVB 00:44:59 hefner: uh? XCVB separates builder and buildee -- of course the dependencies can be switched 00:44:59 Nah, XCVB just has to know how to load them itself. 00:45:00 department of homeland standardization? Now that sounds sinister. 00:45:15 http://www.incits.org/ 00:45:18 a XCVB running in clisp can compile the dependencies in sbcl, and vice-versa. 00:45:40 lucca: A 501(c)3 private, not-for-profit organization 00:45:46 uploads [n=uploads@65.243.149.29] has joined #lisp 00:45:51 hello all 00:46:07 INCITS 226:1994 [R2004] Programming Language Common Lisp 00:46:08 -!- uploads is now known as sighK 00:46:09 hello uploads 00:46:28 anyone interested in joining a clisp project on sourcforge? 00:46:40 it's called geek shell if anyone is interested 00:46:42 isn't clisp hosted on cons.org ? 00:46:52 sighK, what does it do? 00:47:07 basicly i use cons to assign variable names 00:47:15 and it will try and return all scripting languages on your machine 00:47:16 sighK, url? 00:47:23 so you can create a script with intermixed languages 00:47:37 sighK, what you're saying doesn't make obvious sense 00:47:41 wow I didn't know standards cost money 00:48:01 http://sourceforge.net/projects/geekshell/ 00:48:20 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 00:48:30 here is part of it 00:48:33 (if (not(equal 0 (run-shell-command run))) 00:48:33 (if (not(equal 0 (run-shell-command (concatenate 'string "(" line " ) 2>/dev/null")))) (if (not(equal 0 (run-shell-command (concatenate 'string "perl -e '" line "' 2>/dev/null")))) (eval(read-from-string line))) )) 00:48:43 minion: tell sighK about lisppaste 00:48:43 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 00:48:49 basically, it will try each interpreter for a line 00:48:52 what sort of shell is it? 00:48:54 lispm: Re: SML. It's the other way around now, the red book is often derided, nowadays, as just being a copy of the standard (http://www.standardml.org/Basis/manpages.html) 00:48:55 and give a return 00:49:12 you can run scrit such as 00:49:13 and dml is? 00:49:17 myvariable=ls 00:49:19 sighK, doesn't sound very attractive as is 00:49:22 will be result of bash command 00:49:23 or 00:49:26 sighK, are you familiar with SCSH? 00:49:33 no 00:49:44 i even have it intermix applescript on a mac 00:49:46 you should read Olin Shivers' paper about it 00:49:58 fusss: that's the library, but where is the core language documented? 00:49:58 I'd be interested in a port of SCSH to CL 00:50:05 oh scheme 00:50:08 yes i have 00:50:08 actually -- it's part of my (long) TODO list 00:50:29 haven't read this paper you speak of though 00:50:48 basicly the last evaluation is lisp 00:50:53 well, read it, and the SCSH documentation -- before you fool around more with geekshell 00:51:05 lispm: good question. everyone is told to buy the green book, IIRC 00:51:33 fusss: that's what I meant, I haven't found an electronic copy of the language spec yet 00:51:38 Fare: I have a prototype of the -- marker you wanted. Haven't decided on how to return the stuff after --, though. 00:51:54 a special variable is OK. 00:52:12 I need a good name for that, too. 00:52:19 *arguments* ? 00:52:25 *command-line-arguments* ? 00:52:32 args 00:52:37 args 00:52:39 *argv* 00:52:41 \*args\* 00:53:00 *gargle-barf* 00:53:11 (loop for item in args do (format t "~d~%" item)) 00:53:31 sighK, special variables are... special 00:53:39 sighK, read the SCSH paper and be back 00:54:09 Maybe *application-arguments*? *arguments* is too generic, *command-line-arguments* isn't quite right. *argv* would confuse me since it's missing all the other args. 00:54:29 rtoym: works for me. 00:54:39 Breakfast. See you later. 00:54:41 -!- beach [n=user@203.210.248.212] has left #lisp 00:55:19 Fare: Ok. I'll have to ask on the mailing list, though, since this would be an incompatible change to command line parsing. 00:55:24 rtoym: also, if you ever allow standalone executables, make sure to offer the option to let the application have all the arguments, unparsed. 00:56:21 wow, I found all the books possibly needed to learn this stuff oO 00:56:29 Hmm. CMUCL already has standalone executables. I think in that case I can argue that you can make your own init function. 00:56:43 -!- NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-114.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:58:27 breinded: which ones? 01:01:49 rtoym: hum. Can you point me to the proper manual? (Is that functionality new since I originally wrote cl-launch 3 years ago?) 01:01:49 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:02:08 -!- sighK [n=uploads@65.243.149.29] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:02:21 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:29 Fare: It's fairly recent. 01:02:33 I admit that I haven't used cmucl much since ITA has stopped developing for 32-bit machines. 01:06:43 futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-79-193.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:29 -!- futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-79-193.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:07:49 futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-79-193.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:10:14 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:13:22 *Fare* finds it weird to write this that often: (setf pathname (pathname pathname)) 01:17:44 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:18:57 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:35 -!- EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net/"] 01:26:14 Fare: It's described in the user's manual. But basically (save-lisp "name" :executable t). 01:26:15 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:28:15 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:29:08 rtoym: since which release? 01:30:00 Adamant [n=Adamant@71-83-15-2.static.aldl.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:32:02 mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:13 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 01:40:32 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 01:41:10 ths__ [n=ths@X6f1f.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:41:42 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:41:57 gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:08 So I wrote a thing that uses the MOP to find the slots of an object in a homogenous list of objects. it outputs the objects in csv format with or without headers. 01:42:18 Next I'm going to write something that reads in a csv file 01:42:30 Should this go anywhere, or is it to trivial/misguided? 01:43:22 It seems a touch overcomplicated, but not much worse than some database interfaces. 01:44:49 I justified that to myself by saying that I need to output custom objects in csv to R and other statistical software all the time. 01:45:05 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 01:45:19 Is there a better way to do that arbitrarily, without having to write the same code over and over for each new object? 01:46:14 Is it really too much work to pass a list of symbols to csv-out, saying which slots I want? 01:46:31 yes 01:46:41 and sucks out combinations 01:47:10 (defclass c (a b)) ;ooh, I get the a slots but not b slots if I forget to use mc append; how exciting 01:47:27 ;and mc append is a sacrifice itself, so might as well use mop 01:47:36 gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c121h014.wless.reed.edu] has joined #lisp 01:47:45 -!- gottesmm [n=gottesmm@c121h014.wless.reed.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 01:48:05 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:48:54 Hmm. Didn't even think of that. 01:49:26 -!- ths [n=ths@X53d9.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:35 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BFD8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:54:09 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:11 how can I know in which situation use the proper function among the +1000 available? 01:54:18 minion: logs 01:54:18 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 01:54:47 is that for me? 01:54:48 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:55:19 no 01:55:25 ah 01:55:47 How can you know which function to use for a given situation? Experience! 01:55:53 breinded: well, you have to learn about them. The CLHS is organized into chapters that each cover different areas. 01:55:58 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:56:02 (Experience is what you get when you use the wrong function for a situation...) 01:56:16 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:23 breinded: Have you looked at books that cover good lisp style? On Lisp and PAIP are two good ones. 01:56:24 And books that attempt to teach the language are also usually organized in some way. 01:57:03 I am following paip and pcl together 01:58:32 breinded: just learning, or trying to force your style to be better? 01:58:57 PCL is a really excellent choice for learning (my first lisp book) 01:59:36 mogunus: learning, I got half way through 'casting spels' tutorial 02:01:09 breinded: ah, well, welcome! 02:02:03 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:05 -!- mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:03:31 I want to change the exercises from that useless rpg to something more meaningful 02:03:47 woo hoo! i just installed lisp. let the games begin ^_^ 02:04:31 futuresoon: Hacks and glory await! 02:04:49 breinded: How far into PCL are you? 02:05:52 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:05:57 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 02:06:33 So I'm reading a comment in the SBCL source code about how a function doesn't appear to work properly on non-x86, and think "I should get a non-x86 machine to test such things on". 02:06:50 And then I realize that I -have- such a machine, and need to hurry up and finish porting SBCL to it. 02:07:05 the arm? 02:07:10 The ARM. 02:07:17 tcr [n=tcr@p4FD3E792.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:32 was reading your notes earlier today, very interesting 02:08:09 tcr: thanks for the tip about definition-source-mixin; currently implementing that. Is there some other hack I could use to get the right lambda list shown by SLIME? 02:08:10 crod [n=cmell@cad43e-121.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:08:11 Yeah, and I realized a day or so ago what my next step should be: Disabling the compilation of any part of the backend that I haven't yet converted and see where the build breaks. 02:08:35 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cad43e-121.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:10:18 ooh, "Unhandled memory fault at #x0." 02:11:09 which arm system? 02:11:19 the one I have only has 4M of ram, heh 02:11:28 An NSLU2. 02:11:36 gigamonkey: chapter one 02:12:17 Keep reading. Once you get to some of the practical chapters you can probabyl pick one to frob into something you're interested in hacking on. 02:12:39 S11001001: specialize on sb-pcl::generic-function-pretty-arglist; it may make sense to propose a lambda-list-mixin 02:13:59 S11001001: Scratch that, that is not going to work. (I'm drunk, and actually want to go to bed.) 02:14:06 excellent 02:14:13 'night tcr 02:14:18 lol@ppl drunk on irc 02:14:36 at least tcr remembers random crap about PCL 02:14:38 there should a #aa on freenode 02:14:53 tcr: Sleep well. 02:15:56 S11001001: Actually I don't think inheriting definition-source-mixin will do the magic thing for you 02:16:09 well I got the same error as before 02:16:21 so I think something happens even before we get that far 02:16:54 is a funcallable instance typep 'function? 02:17:04 yes 02:17:29 found out the exciting way that defclass will complain if it isn't in the CPL 02:17:34 on SBCL at least 02:17:48 the weird thing is it was fine with (), but complained with (sb-pcl::definition-source-mixin) 02:18:33 *S11001001* goes to try rearranging the CPL 02:18:53 ice_four [n=ice_four@host86-131-244-48.range86-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 02:18:53 ok this the definition-source-mixin trick won't work as sb-introspect isn't funcallable-instances savy 02:19:30 S11001001: basically, look at sb-introspect:find-definition-source and sb-introspect:function-arglist. The first one is used by M-., the second one by autodoc. 02:20:24 *tcr* (GO +BED+) 02:20:32 -!- tcr [n=tcr@p4FD3E792.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:22:54 *nyef* is in a maze of twisty little stack frame offset calculations, all repetitive, and that he could have sworn he arranged to have eliminated from the compiler backends ages ago. 02:23:37 if I have the name of a sb-kernel function like %closure-fun, what do I grep for to find where it's really defined? 02:24:11 You mean besides src/code/kernel.lisp ? 02:24:23 ah, define-source-transform 02:24:24 -!- ice_four [n=ice_four@host86-131-244-48.range86-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 02:24:26 Can Lisp compilers do anything smart to address Knuth's "A Flame About 64-bit Pointers" at http://www-cs-faculty.stanford.edu/~knuth/news.html (scroll down a bit)? 02:24:43 Yeah, a function defined recursively like that is invariably something in the compiler or the backend. 02:25:37 and I assume that sticking FUNCTION in your CPL isn't enough to get all the data that tags along in a closure 02:26:14 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 02:27:42 gigamonkey: Yeah, SBCL on Alpha has no problem with that. 02:27:42 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:27:43 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:27:46 *nyef* ducks. 02:28:03 gigamonkey: I'm sympathetic, but I don't see any way to make that work on x86-64. It's a pity that there's not some sort of extended x86-32 mode with the extra regs. 02:28:17 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:49 *Fare* nreverse's a list ending with '(:absolute) and hilarity ensues... 02:30:07 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.216.72] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 02:30:29 rme: what's the problem? That there are no 32-bit registers? 02:32:07 rme: I'd attempt to refute your statement, or at least verify it, but it's late enough in my day that I'm not going to bother. 02:33:41 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 02:33:48 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:34:12 I'd consider being surprised about the SBCL-on-Alpha 32-bithood, but some checking shows that the last binary produced was 0.9.12, so it's not really that surprising that such a thing hasn't been fixed up. 02:34:31 (Does the alpha backend even still run?) 02:34:47 *Fare* completes his mini-portable-pathname thingie and barfs. 02:35:28 who cares about the alpha anymore, anyway? 02:35:49 Exactly! Let's just strip the alpha backend out, and all the supporting code, conditionals, etc.! 02:35:50 heh, patched sb-introspect 02:36:23 what next, a port to the VAX? 02:37:07 (There's this place in debug-int.lisp where the code does one thing on x86oids, does a sap-ref-sap on non-x86oid-non-alphas, and does an int-sap of a sap-ref-32 on alphas. 02:37:22 Fare: don't tempt nyef :D 02:37:44 what's an alpha? 02:37:50 (Did I say one place? Dear lord, this construct is -common- in here...) 02:38:18 futuresoon: It's the 64-bit processor of the future, that will crush the x86 in popularity! 02:38:25 (Well, it was about a decade ago.) 02:38:26 oh, can i run linux on it? 02:38:38 If you can find one that still works. 02:38:44 hahaha 02:39:00 gigamonkey: chapter 3 is where the action begins? 02:39:22 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:39:49 ... replace-frame-catch-tag?!? WTF? 02:40:25 Hm. Now that I'm thinking about it, maybe you could make x86-64 use 32-bit addresses only. 02:40:39 You'd need C runtime support, obviously. 02:40:48 there's a 64 bit ubuntu---is that sort of the same? 02:41:04 Umm... No you wouldn't. You'd just have to make sure the lisp heap was mapped low. 02:41:40 everything indirect! relocation for free! 02:42:03 hefner: Don't tempt me. :-P 02:42:07 is there any value for a web designer in lisp? 02:42:33 What if you malloc'd foreign memory and got a high address back? 02:42:40 futuresoon: heh 02:42:51 rme: Oh, you'd have 64-bit SAPs, just 32-bit lispobjs. 02:43:07 that might sound like a ridiculous question but i use a content management system called Drupal which is written in well-coded php (we like to think) though we realize how terrible that language is 02:43:10 Which means that ALIEN pointers would be 64-bit. 02:43:19 iow, not here to start a language war 02:43:43 drupal.. what a terribal name 02:43:49 but i have all this complicated web functionality and i'm looking to see if i can leverage lisp in my day to day activities surrounding it 02:43:50 heh. terrible! 02:43:57 "Drupal: Content management for drips"? 02:44:04 hefner: yes, these things happen---lisp is kinda weird too :-P 02:44:17 for the web 02:44:29 drupal 7 will output RDF if any of you are into that 02:44:54 breinded: Chapter 3 is sort of a preview. You could play with it though and get a feel for things. 02:44:56 maybe RDF will be able to standardize lisp libraries some day? who knows. the internet is a magical place 02:45:06 i don't know enough about lisp to say 02:45:16 *hefner* is sick of names, has considered labelling most future work numerically 02:45:26 Ahh, -that's- what replace-frame-catch-tag is for. return-from-frame and restart-frame on targets without the unwind-and-call vop. 02:45:28 hefner: stardate 23232.8? 02:45:32 The first "real" practical is Chapter 9. 02:46:47 mm.. can sbcl be used as a shell to the system? 02:46:55 since it has a prompt 02:47:11 breinded: not if it's a subprocess of the shell i don't think? 02:47:16 breinded: It could, but you might lose out with some of the peculiarities of run-program. 02:47:36 i'm using sbcl on slime right now---is this the way to go for a noob? 02:47:38 futuresoon: It doesn't take much to make any program a login shell. 02:47:48 no kidding? 02:47:49 breinded: not very comfortably. But you certainly can spend a lot of time and have a lot of fun in a REPL. 02:47:58 futuresoon: It probably is if you're used to emacs already. 02:47:58 i just got on linux 4 days ago and i'm on slime today 02:48:04 any particular reason SBCL (and CLISP too) always seem to start with the same random state? 02:48:05 futuresoon: yes. SBCL+SLIME is good fun. 02:48:06 emacs today too 02:48:32 more than just good fun? 02:49:17 i'm going through the tutorials on practical common lisp but as i skim over the web chapters, it looks like lisp doesn't work on the web very well---is that right? 02:49:20 In a couple more years, the whole 32 vs. 64 bit question may end up being not very interesting. 02:49:28 futuresoon: no, that's wrong. 02:49:54 See: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-web-programming-with-allegroserve.html. Though these days I'd recommend Hunchentoot over AllegroServe. 02:50:11 ok thanks 02:50:15 rme: only if programs start regularly chewing on more than 4G of memory. 02:50:28 At least if you buy Knuth's argument. 02:52:10 gigamonkey: what are the prospects of porting any of the existing web frameworks to lisp and popularizing that? 02:52:20 *hefner* has used more than 4 GB of memory, but never as anything other than large specialized arrays 02:52:29 future inevitability but immediate impossibility? 02:52:38 futuresoon: porting, certainly doable; popularizing, hard to say. 02:53:14 I think his argument has merit, but it's going to be overcome by events: caches will get bigger, etc. 02:53:23 as a noob i'd say there's a perception that everyone does lisp their own way so you can't easily re-use anybody's code 02:53:56 events can never turn 2 bits into 1 02:54:15 futuresoon: there's something to that but it's a a lot less true these days than it used to be. 02:54:22 hefner: Sure they can. I have 2 bits here that are both 1. :-P 02:54:29 There are a lot of de facto standard libraries these days. 02:54:33 in the web framework i use, when a module declares a hook, any given page load might decide to fire a function in every module that declares a function with the appropriate namespace 02:54:40 (And if you squint a bit, together they look like 3.) 02:54:59 gigamonkey: yes---that's the nice thing about standards. there's so many to choose from :-P 02:55:25 rme: the bigger caches get, the more it hurts to waste half your cache. ;-) 02:55:35 "#!+rt"?!? Eek! 02:56:14 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:56:46 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:33 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 02:57:44 futuresoon: If you want to be able to throw together interactive store-backed websites really quickly, have a look at Weblocks (disclaimer: I co-maintain said project) 02:58:14 s11001001: how quickly is really quickly? 02:59:54 Ugh. sb-di::sub-access-debug-var-slot is a victim of copy-paste programming followed by divergance due to differing maintainance done to each version over the years. 03:00:09 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:00:10 ahh i see a demo here 03:00:23 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:00:23 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:00:27 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:19 (defwebapp inventory) (def-view-class inventory-item ((desc :accessor desc) (count :accessor count))) (defun init-user-session (rcp) (setf (composite-widgets rcp) (list (make-instance 'gridedit :data-class 'inventory-item)))) is a webapp for managing an inventory 03:01:29 for serious 03:01:44 oh I guess I forgot a () after inventory-item 03:01:49 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:11 then I guess you want to mess around with custom rendering and authentication and such and weird queries and it all grows 03:02:16 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:39 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 03:04:36 why doesn't sbcl have tab completion? 03:04:46 rlwrap 03:04:50 breinded: Because... you're not using SLIME or rlwrap? 03:05:08 how do I use the latter? 03:05:20 I guess you won't get tab completion with rlwrap 03:05:30 but maybe you mean readline-style editing 03:05:55 I can't imagine that building a suitable replacement would take more than a day for a proof-of-concept... 03:06:25 oh ok is in portage :) 03:06:25 for SLIME for the "I don't want to use emacs or vi"? 03:07:42 I wonder what LispWorks would say if a customer said to them "hey, I want to be able to jump to source locations with a key in LispWorks, but I don't want to use your IDE" 03:09:06 ok I have rlwrap, how do I activate it? 03:09:19 I am using vim 03:09:42 Fare: Wow. It actually made it into the 19e release. 03:09:52 rtoym: what did? 03:09:59 you just released 19e? 03:10:37 now -- should I update cl-launch now, or later? 03:11:02 Later, as it's already 10pm? 03:11:19 Fare: Oh. You asked when executables were added. 19e was release in May, I think. 03:11:32 oh, ok. 03:11:50 any of you re-ordered the keyboard layout to make it easier for lisp? 03:11:58 I'll let cl-launch bit rot for a few more months, then, I suppose. 03:12:07 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A24328.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 03:12:12 S11001001: weblocks looks very interesting 03:12:17 not that many people use cl-launch at all, even fewer with cmucl 03:13:06 I think swapping [] for () would be much better, as I would save having to press shift+9 or 0 03:13:33 breinded: Some people do that. 03:14:20 I think the only keyboard remapping I tried was replacing caps lock with backspace, but that was more as a booby-trap for people borrowing my computer to do some quick SQL and leaving the caps lock on. 03:14:43 (It's almost as if they only had four fingers on each hand or something. I mean, -really-, caps lock?!?) 03:14:50 Not even remapping capslock as ctrl? 03:14:55 I have caps-lock as ctrl 03:15:07 No, I'm kindof used to having ctrl on the bottom row of keys. 03:15:18 I've remapped ~ as esc, and some windows key as ~. 03:15:54 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:15:55 ctrl's should be shift 03:16:30 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 03:17:06 I very recently got a kinesis curved keyboard and I'm loving it. I would get one instead of swapping keys around on a normal keyboard. 03:17:37 kzar: Doesn't help us laptop folks, though. 03:18:02 And if it's anything like the MS "natural" keyboards, some of us would find them painful to use anyway. 03:18:24 nyef: Yea that's true.. my plan was to develop using a laptop next year but now I'm not sure 03:18:44 One thing to consider about a laptop is that it has a built-in UPS. 03:19:17 kzar: I make my own mofo'ing keyboard a thousand times better than kinesys 03:19:35 breinded: really? 03:19:47 is'nt that difficult 03:19:50 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@pD95D48AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 03:20:11 you paid $500 for a keybeard? 03:20:23 OK well suit yourselves anyway, just thought I'd throw it out there 03:20:35 kzar: I've been using a laptop for the past year and half. It's worked out OK. (It's a *big* laptop, though---17" macbook pro.) 03:20:54 breinded: £190 about, a lot but when typing gets too painful it's nothing to pay 03:21:07 kzar: If I had to choose again, I'd get the 15" and an external display and keyboard, though. 03:21:55 I think 15" is the ideal for laptop 03:22:52 breinded, I think in my hands is the ideal for a laptop 03:23:11 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:23:55 I think the kinesis is worth it 03:24:02 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:24:02 *Fare* speaks with RSI experience 03:24:03 Did they keep the wind-up aspect of the xo-pc, or was that dropped? 03:24:12 wind up? 03:24:34 I've being studyng the issue closely. I got a 21" screen and doesn't work very good for typing, I think two 17" would be better 03:24:40 did they change the XO PC at all? I thought all the key developers had left... 03:24:45 Small generator on a crank to recharge the battery when no mains power was available. 03:25:04 ISTR hearing that it was dropped before the design was finalized, but wasn't sure. 03:25:09 nyef: last I heard, it was removed long ago, and only added as an option (if ever) 03:25:12 Fare: The current package is not *required* to use the -reader package, since -reader: will also read as cl:lambda when the reader is enabled. 03:25:14 google xo-pc 03:25:15 Ah, okay. 03:25:17 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:25:19 My XO doesn't have that. I thinl they dropped it. 03:25:49 Fare: I had considered doing something package-insensitive, but I really prefer that reader macros like this don't affect the entire system. 03:26:07 chandler: but won't you be reading foo: and fail to transform it if you're not using that package when reading? 03:26:12 Suppose another package has (defmacro  (&rest args) `(lambda ,@args)) ? 03:26:26 ok 03:26:32 Fare: -reader starts with a  very deliberately :-) 03:26:37 (Pity, I'm looking at a possible thirteenth day of no power aside from what we can generate locally, and a wind-up laptop has been a -really- attractive idea recently.) 03:27:07 Any token which starts with  or  that reads as the symbol named  in the -READER package is instead read as CL:LAMBDA 03:27:16 nyef: what about a power generator instead? 03:27:18 This includes the token "-READER:" and "-READER::" 03:27:49 Fare: That's what I'm using now, but it's a loaner and we've only had it for three days now. 03:27:55 is this thing real? http://www.hyperionpowergeneration.com/ 03:28:20 Also isn't strong enough to run the furnace, more's the pity. 03:29:16 t is an embedded switch for FORMAT? 03:29:41 What do you mean by "embedded switch"? 03:29:55 I tried (format r "hello, world") and gave me an error 03:30:10 Is R bound? 03:30:24 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:30:28 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:36 shame, I missed the keyboard discussion. :) 03:30:42 ok so it is a switch 03:31:03 If I understand what you mean by "switch", it is not. 03:32:15 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:32:41 breinded: See http://gigamonkeys.com/book/a-few-format-recipes.html 03:32:41 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:32:51 "The first argument to FORMAT, the destination for the output, can be T, NIL, a stream, or a string with a fill pointer. T is shorthand for the stream *STANDARD-OUTPUT*, while NIL causes FORMAT to generate its output to a string, which it then returns." 03:33:55 ok 03:34:39 I thought it was formatting the word t with the string 'hello, world' 03:34:49 wow, how wrong I was 03:34:58 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:37 at work, they are going to do .NET 03:35:39 Thank goodness for books! 03:37:13 manic12, and? you're going to use F# ? 03:37:23 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:37:26 i have sbcl getting to make-target-2 using the mingw gcc for x64 btw 03:37:42 of course, i am sure many things are broken 03:38:13 There are many, many things out there that are worse than .NET. 03:38:27 Fare: no, if I get assigned to the project I will probably be using C# and a little C++ 03:38:31 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 03:39:36 chandler: FORMAT are just messages, right? 03:39:47 I have been hacking lisp since 1997 and I actually agree with the company's decision to use .net 03:39:57 (dotimes (x (/ *blackboard-height* *font-size*)) (format *blackboard* "HTML tokenizer != HTML parser~%")) 03:40:03 like 'so and so' NIL ar T 03:40:24 breinded: I am not sure what you mean by that. FORMAT is a general purpose output formatting routine. 03:41:19 I just don't care anymore, I'm tired of try to explain to people that we should all be using lisp machines 03:41:24 i wasted time adding an FSM to an html tokenizer to recover the the "DOM" when perfectly good real parsers existed :-S 03:42:10 What is this ":-S" thing? 03:42:38 I see it a lot lately. I read it as "programming is too hard; why oh why didn't I go into accountancy?" 03:43:11 is anyone else working on sbcl on x64 or should i just keep pounding on it 03:43:13 ? 03:43:31 frowning embarrassment, a resignation to one's fate as "teh suck!" 03:43:37 on Windows x64, you mean? No, I don't believe anyone else is working on it. 03:43:54 i like when google groups mails me my posts it reminds me that i really exist 03:43:59 i seem to be getting somewhere with it 03:44:43 at least a list of all the ways it's breaking 03:44:50 manic12, is there a good L# ? 03:44:53 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:56 Well, that sounds like a good start. 03:45:10 manic12, come join ITA :) 03:45:22 -!- appletizer [i=a@82-32-122-46.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:45:23 do you work for ITA? 03:45:31 yes 03:45:37 -!- alpheus [n=user@c-98-213-176-16.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:45:45 About half the channel works for ITA, or at least that's how it seems on some days. 03:46:09 sounds enticing, but I am not sure I am ready to leave mechanical engineering yet though 03:46:10 and I would get a bonus if only I could find candidates to refer who actually got hired 03:46:18 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 03:46:46 chandler, I'm flattered you give me such a weight on the channel 03:47:09 there is something about plasma torches and carbide tooling 03:47:23 Fare: You're not the only one who has joined with an ITA address :-) 03:47:47 I'm the only one who speaks, nonsense as it may be 03:47:53 fare, I do use orbitz though 03:48:26 I really don't see much nonsense from you, either. 03:48:28 EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has joined #lisp 03:48:47 -!- EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:49:19 Fare, do you guys use remote contractors at all? 03:50:09 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:50:28 we do, mainly from Europe. 03:50:40 those darn foreigners who steal OUR american jobs. 03:50:55 *hefner* waves a fist 03:50:56 trev234 [n=user@203.161.82.10] has joined #lisp 03:51:12 nobody cares about the Euros, they want more money than we do to do less 03:51:32 it's the people who will work themselves to death for peanuts that we have to hate 03:51:49 well these days, the EUR has sunk so much that it becomes interesting to hire them again 03:52:05 *hefner* cheers 03:52:11 Fare: well, there's also Eastern Europe 03:52:29 payscale hasn't caught up yet and there are some great talents there 03:52:40 yeah, these people give us stuff for nothing! Woe them! Our economy will be saved when we deal with people who give us nothing in exchange for lots of stuff! 03:52:49 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 03:52:53 sounds like where i live 03:55:32 "it's not winning that counts, it's making sure everyone else loses" 03:55:46 Too bad California doesn't have it's own weird currency--then you could hire me too. 03:57:06 were you at the 2005 LUGM gigamonkey? 03:57:30 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:58:24 Hmm. Isn't -mmacosx-version-min=10.2 make the binary so it can run on OSX 10.2? 03:59:22 i've been eating coffee beans again 03:59:25 -!- worra [n=worra@77-99-101-162.cable.ubr14.sgyl.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [] 04:00:03 gigamonkey, if you're looking for a job, ITA might definitely consider you (if we're still hiring at all in these days) 04:00:10 rtoym: it is 04:00:39 fe[nl]ix, tell me more about iolib.base -- I'm looking for a place in which to import lots of utilities. 04:00:45 -!- trev234 [n=user@203.161.82.10] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:01:40 so am i going to be excommunicated if i help write a big program in C# ? 04:01:41 fe[nl]ix: Then I must be doing something wrong. The result won't run on my 10.2.8 iMac. 04:01:45 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:15 Any lispers here familar with x86 assembly on OSX? 04:02:24 worse, you may be communicated! 04:02:36 Fare: I'm not sure what to say :D 04:03:02 gonzojive_ [n=red@ip98-169-46-222.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:14 for instance, would it host a flurry of utilities? 04:03:25 was there a lisp gathering in NYC? 04:03:30 rtoym: i've done a bit of it 04:03:30 i have a friend that went from hard-core lisper to php hacker 04:03:31 or does it has a narrow purpose? 04:03:32 rtoym: make sure you pass that flag to the compiler and also to the linker 04:03:38 trev234 [n=user@203.161.82.10] has joined #lisp 04:04:20 Fare: depends on the utilities. what do you have in mind ? 04:04:41 seems like no matter what you do with a computer, you end up bit twiddling eventually 04:04:47 fe[nl]ix: I did. Do I need to do something for assembly files? 04:05:24 rme: Very simple question: How do I get the assembler to assemble a jmp instruction to use the 8-bit displacement version instead of the 32-bit displacement? 04:06:16 rtoym: I don't know 04:06:30 rtoym: I'm going to guess that it's going to be "jmps" or "jmp short", or if all else fails just encoding the damned thing by hand. 04:06:49 see this WITH-OUTPUT-STREAM macro, for instance: http://paste.lisp.org/display/72600 04:07:12 I use something like it all the time when writing string/stream output functions. 04:07:13 nyef: Oh. Didn't think about jmps or jmp short. I did hard code by hand for now. Makes tracing work on cmucl/osx/x86. 04:07:32 I would think "jump short" would be 16 bit, but of course I'm kindof an assembly dummy 04:08:03 manic12, assembly isn't C 04:08:48 Fare: I like that 04:08:54 rtoym: I'd agree with nyef; if it gives you any trouble, just encode it by hand. I don't think I've run into that. 04:09:19 I usually call it WITH-OUTPUT and don't bother with the dynamic-extent 04:09:49 and call the function thing call-with-output rather than do-with- 04:09:58 manic12: For x86, a "near" jump is one with an absolute address within the current code segment. In "real", vm86, or 16-bit protected mode, this would be a 16-bit jump. 04:10:15 and use thunk instead of continuation 04:10:41 Okay, I'm closing down for the night. I'll be back tomorrow. 04:10:42 nyef: my head hurts. Stop reminding me those horrors from the past! 04:10:59 *Fare* runs away screaming 04:11:04 oh, but xeons can do that 04:11:09 Fare: what made you break with tradition ? 04:11:15 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-222-144-27.man.east.verizon.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 04:11:47 swm at ITA changed my code afterwards to his style -- and he's way senior 04:12:44 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 04:13:02 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:13:02 nyef, rme: Thanks for the hints. There doesn't seem to be a jmps or jmp short. Hard coding kind of sucks if something changes, but it's highly unlikely to change. 04:16:34 jmp byte? (random guess, my memory has hashed the syntax of every assembler and disassembler I've ever used into a mess) 04:18:10 The assembler is GNU as, so jmp byte probably wouldn't work.... 04:18:16 It doesn't. bummer 04:19:56 -!- gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:20:09 -!- crod [n=cmell@cad43e-121.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:20:52 crod [n=cmell@cad43e-121.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:22:27 *hefner* never liked at&t syntax 04:25:53 rtoym: Do you say something like "jmp 1f", or use some other kind of label? 04:26:38 I use a regular label. I didn't know GNU as supported the 1f label. 04:27:26 I use stuff like jmp 1f in a couple places, and I get the #xeb opcode. 04:27:26 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:28:13 Hey, that seems to work! 04:28:17 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:17 cool 04:28:29 -!- trev234 [n=user@203.161.82.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:30:09 Thank you! 04:31:21 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:29 yw 04:32:02 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.6.160] has joined #lisp 04:32:05 manic12: LUGM? Is that the New York group? 04:32:51 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:33:04 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus_ 04:33:13 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 04:38:21 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:38:51 yoonkn [n=yoonkn@210.108.170.71] has joined #lisp 04:48:45 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.6.160] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:51:39 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:52:05 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:54:19 skv [n=user@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:49 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has quit [] 04:57:16 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:02:34 Request [n=ajsda@41.233.43.37] has joined #lisp 05:02:44 Free Programming E-books With Direct Links & Request Ebooks http://www.request-ebooks.blogspot.com/ 05:02:53 -!- Request [n=ajsda@41.233.43.37] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:07:54 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:14:02 -!- frostb [n=frostb@ip70-190-35-142.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 2.0.0.20/2008121709]"] 05:19:04 jestocost [n=cmell@cad43e-121.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:20:29 -!- crod [n=cmell@cad43e-121.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:23:14 kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-31-172.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:15 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.71.86] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:28:47 -!- samkayley [n=thedeepe@5ac38cc5.bb.sky.com] has quit [] 05:31:07 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-232-22.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 05:31:07 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:31:09 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-232-22.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:32:16 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:40 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:08 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:37:19 -!- cooldude127 [n=user@adsl-232-65-160.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:41:39 divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:59 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:44:14 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44E12.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:13 i am starting with lisp and sbcl. i am looking for tutorials and documentation to print on a laser printer. 05:48:18 (so it should not be hypertext but pdf or txt or html single page) 05:48:45 -!- jinho [n=jinho@user-387gl9p.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 05:48:54 why not buy practical common lisp? 05:53:59 kenyon: Gentle Introduction to Common Lisp is in pdf form. But I would reserve that carbon foot-print for your days in the future as a competent Smug Lisp Weenie :-P 05:57:03 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:57:45 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 05:58:02 or more more than thousand pages CLtL2 05:58:44 hmmm, only MS would compile CSS into a binary, so now i have to decompile the docs with a 3rd party tool back to html just to change the default font size to something readable. 05:59:29 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46FF1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:00:09 that sounds about as friendly to increasing the font size as the web at large (where every single layout will break and go crazy) 06:03:49 if you're talking about a CHM file or something, that always seemed particularly insane and pointless to me 06:03:50 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:04:20 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:16 hefner: dunno, when push comes to shove, i have firebug to edit the offending site in place. for offline browsing i can do the same with firebug + ScrapBook 06:08:47 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cad43e-121.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:09:40 fuss, lol 06:10:33 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.98] has joined #lisp 06:12:47 stassats: i will consider getting one 06:13:21 there are no lisp books here at book shops so it is not so easy to choose 06:16:00 kenyon: .de? a good chunk of lispers are germans :-) 06:18:49 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8abf-142.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:22:05 aartist [n=REENA@ool-44c51a97.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:16 .. 06:23:41 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-226-194.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:17 wol [n=wol@c-24-4-220-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:43 Any clsql users around? 06:27:03 i will hang around at lisp.de - there are 3 otjers already :) 06:28:17 -!- ebzzry [n=ebzzry@124.217.91.152] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:34:20 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-74-68-128-11.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:35:06 wol: i use it as a bridge between Elephant and Sqlite3 06:35:11 aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@69.171.146.51] has joined #lisp 06:35:19 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@cpe-67-243-48-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:35:44 kenyon: they're all here too 06:36:36 I'm getting inconsistent results using update-records-from-instance. First time works. Modify instance, won't write. 06:36:55 Problem in my code, I need to go back over it before I can ask a sensible question. 06:38:06 kogu [n=koguNOSP@59.93.83.254] has joined #lisp 06:38:39 hi, how i do stop the repl window from coming up? I am using a dual screen setup, so I have a new frame, which is always set to show the repl on the second monitor, but now, when i run a function, my emacs window is split in half, how do i prevent that? 06:39:02 in short, how i stop slime from splitting my window in 2 06:40:29 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-74-68-128-11.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:40:55 -!- aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@69.171.146.51] has quit [Client Quit] 06:45:16 kogu: in the split window, go to the editing buffer (you might need to C-x o) 06:45:28 then C-x 1 (that's a one) 06:46:03 read the slime docs on how to do this permanently with an .emacs option 06:46:44 fusss: ty, i did have a quick look at the docs, i will have a closer look now 06:47:04 fusss: I do want todo it permanently, because I don't want to keep closing the new window everytime 06:47:40 typically, you don't close and open emacs too often. it's not unusual for my emacs to run for weeks on end. 06:48:12 if you're on Unix, you can run emacs and sbcl under `screen` and attach and detach from it whenever you need to hack 06:48:28 I think you missed the point, fusss. 06:48:40 milanj [n=milan@212.200.223.213] has joined #lisp 06:48:44 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:49:04 i know he wants it permanently, he will have to look that up later, like he said he would 06:49:22 hmm, I think I missed it. 06:50:59 kogu: once you have a lisp server deployed, you will end up firing up emacs but connecting to an already running lisp :-) more slime-connect, less M-x slime :-) 06:51:27 -!- aszarsha1 [n=Aszarsha@69.171.146.51] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:52:22 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:56:17 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.223.213] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:56:34 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 06:56:37 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-24-7-31-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:59:24 morning/evening. 06:59:26 fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:28 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.157.185] has joined #lisp 07:03:26 hey tic 07:06:10 Hmm. clsql and postgresql. Sometimes getting a result-cursor. Sometimes not. Sometimes the update takes even with no result cursor. Curious. 07:06:38 hey, fusss. what's cooking? 07:07:29 -!- divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:08:58 not much. fighting with regexps and html parsers. been trying to write a generic parser for 10 years worth of product descriptions in free form. 07:10:33 oh, happy joy. 07:10:46 is there a NLP you can use? 07:11:35 even my wetware english parser fails at this. also removing image attachments and adding metadata. 07:12:08 haha, poor you! 07:13:17 regardless, don't you think a parser suited for language processing would be easier than to write a zillion special-cased regexs? 07:13:55 product description can be free form, but i must make sure the price doesn't make it into user visible text. s/\$ .../ can work, but the salespeople were not always too careful not to spell out "dollars" or just leaving the number ambiguous. 07:14:09 tic: do you have any recommendations? 07:14:54 kenyon_ [n=kenyon_@xdsl-81-173-148-138.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:15:38 fusss, no, sorry. maybe there's something at the library list at Cliki? 07:16:12 beach [n=user@203.210.248.212] has joined #lisp 07:16:17 Good afternoon. 07:16:19 oh, no worries. good thing is that they adopted CSS early, so there is atleast some context. 07:16:25 hey beach 07:16:52 css? cascading style sheets? 07:17:40 i just learned more about lisp tonight than i have in my previous 25 years of existence 07:17:55 futuresoon: congratulations! 07:19:19 i'm starting to arrive at the conclusion that in about 5 years, maybe, perhaps when a major common effort at making a web framework in lisp is starting to bear fruit that only then will a major investment in lisp learning really be worthwhile for a lowly web developer such as myself 07:19:24 hello, beach. 07:19:45 i like what Edi Weitz is doing 07:19:48 futuresoon, you can start hacking on web now! many frameworks around, if you're into that. 07:20:00 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 07:20:00 fusss, alright, that's good. not entirely screwed. 07:20:24 fusss, still, feels like a somewhat...interesting choice, storing data as html directly. 07:20:52 tic: i'd love to see some demos of web frameworks in lisp 07:21:01 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:21:23 i saw one called weblocks which is an awesome effort by one person i think 07:22:02 i see these two different programming cultures that don't understand each other at all 07:22:05 More than one person has worked on weblocks. 07:22:10 there's a swooshy 2.0 demo at a site, something with Core, but I can't remember the name. 07:22:39 futuresoon: weblocks is not a one man show. at least 4 people are hacking on it, and i know i'm using it 07:22:49 that's cool 07:22:54 rme: not "has", IS working on it 07:23:00 i know 4 can be a lot in lisp, right? 07:23:19 i don't see a reason why a web framework in lisp couldn't get numbers in the 100,000s 07:23:25 futuresoon: Slime has close to 20 people in its credits file 07:23:40 i just installed slime tonight 07:24:24 i think lispbox is going to majorly attract people to lisp----but although it may seem stupidly easy to install lispbox, remember that it can never be stupidly easy "enough" 07:24:52 I think ABLE has better luck with beginners. editor, repl, go. 07:24:58 lisp was built for the web and i'm going to be counting days until i can give up my php web framework and go lisp 07:25:29 futuresoon: i went cakephp free recently, myself :-) 07:25:32 able is a lispbox competitor? i just meant lispbox installs really easily---i don't know about compile cycles and what-not 07:25:53 fusss: my understanding is that you can build cakephp projects on top of drupal----that's what i use 07:25:55 most things install easily, with asdf-install and clbuild 07:26:31 fusss: i don't mean once you have lisp running---i mean even more stupidly easy than that :-) 07:26:41 but good to know, that will help (me) 07:26:41 futuresoon: my site is running on hunchentoot, the blog is manged by drupal but the computation and all the ajax callbacks are hunchentoot. i'm populating the database right now in perl. 07:27:04 you have a lisp blog running drupal? i probably have it running right now 07:27:17 or else just closed it recently 07:27:27 not a blog, PR articles 07:27:37 i can run hunchentoot and drupal *both*? 07:27:41 cause now i'm listening 07:27:46 yes you can 07:27:54 then it's settled 07:27:59 mod_proxy my friend, and url-rewrite 07:28:05 mod_rewrite? 07:28:17 yes 07:28:19 apache tricks---i always wanted to learn apache better 07:29:04 i'm still trying to wrap my head around why lisp doesn't have a content management system a la drupal 07:29:22 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:29:42 there's obviously some deep-seated reason only i can't find it-----too much freedom or something? a community of practice needs to impose namespace structure onto lisp? 07:29:48 futuresoon: not all lispers are web developers, like php people 07:30:10 there's something worth doing *not* on the web? :-) 07:30:42 on the not-web? i don't even know what to CALL the not-web :-P 07:30:44 yes. i'm writing a twitter clone for a DOS BBS (jk) 07:30:51 nice :-P 07:31:23 we need to put fast lisp programs in the cloud 07:31:25 stop worrying and do things for yourself. Greed is good, also laziness. 07:31:43 I think all you web people are out of your mind, and in the end will probably be the death of us all. 07:31:59 hefner: interesting perspective. privacy concerns? totalitarian orwellian scenario? 07:32:19 that's my worry if any 07:32:36 don't listen to hef, he's a web guy too; his dog's GPS collar publishes an RSS feed! 07:32:45 -!- kenyon [n=kenyon_@xdsl-81-173-236-164.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:32:51 so the DOG has privacy concerns!! 07:33:05 alright, i'm back to work. cheers! 07:33:19 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A1F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:40 also, avoid bloggers, dabblers and blowhards. for your own sanity. 07:33:52 good call 07:34:00 *hefner* is all three of those 07:34:10 rut roh 07:34:15 *futuresoon* publishes a geo-rss feed 07:34:43 hefner: what's your scenario for lisp world domination? 07:35:07 we stop screwing around and murder everyone else 07:35:21 brianj_otter [n=brianj@wsip-24-234-224-152.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:38 that sounds easier than implementing an interoperability paradigm 07:35:50 interoperability is for the prols 07:36:04 yes, hefner for prez. 07:36:45 I voted for Caligula, myself. 07:36:55 fine choice. 07:37:11 I've got a clisp program that wants to do binary IO on it's *standard-input* and *standard-output* when the streams are from the lisp launched as a child process. 07:37:45 I have done the re-set of the stream element type, but I'm getting this from the lisp on Win32: *** - Win32 error 6 (ERROR_INVALID_HANDLE): The handle is invalid. 07:38:00 hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279634370.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 07:38:23 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 07:39:40 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 07:41:48 -!- kogu [n=koguNOSP@59.93.83.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:44:07 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 07:44:55 rcy [n=rcy@S01060013102d91ee.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:55 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:47:57 futuresoon, web-frameworks & lisp .. there's so many; UCW, lisp-on-lines, Weblocks, WUI and/or cl-dwim (lots of stuff), cl-trane, CLAW, cl-terrace, core server and just plain Hunchentoot with a couple of utility libraries and a connection with PostgreSQL (i like the Postmodern Lisp library for this) can get you far .. also there's my own weird wild web thing called SymbolicWeb 07:48:55 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:02 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1176023246.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:52:00 +1 lnostdal 07:52:40 -!- ths__ is now known as ths 07:56:45 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-d170f987e90bb1c1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:57:29 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-e4b1d471e76958ac] has joined #lisp 07:57:44 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 07:58:22 -!- hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279634370.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:48 i was just looking at symbolicweb 08:01:09 i want to use whatever is headed in the direction of replacing all the functionality of drupal 08:04:00 none of these are cmses, futuresoon 08:05:01 isn't a CMS one particular type of web-application or web-application type? .. i mean; frameworks sits below a CMS i think .. but i guess there can be many levels or views on this 08:05:07 yes, it is 08:06:02 i said the same thing twice .. coffee & breakfast .. merry Christmas all btw. .. bbl. 08:06:16 there is a wiki for hunchentoot. several people have written blogs over hunchentoot. 08:09:15 fusss: Yep, it, ALIW, is at http://aliw.ce.itu.edu.tr/ 08:12:59 interoperability is the honeypot trap of framework popularity. Just ask the OS/2 folks. 08:15:34 you don't want to alienate everyone completely though. it's a fine lineu. 08:17:11 Who said anything about alienation? 08:18:30 as opposed to going the OS/2 route. 08:20:08 moin all 08:21:13 futuresoon: I don't have anything like that, but something that tries to replace drupal would be something with what I could convince other people to go to the lisp-side 08:22:29 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["sleepytime, this is not really happening..."] 08:22:56 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-e4b1d471e76958ac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:33:08 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@ip98-169-46-222.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 08:40:26 kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-12d2e9e78f560401] has joined #lisp 08:42:02 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA53E.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:42:07 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-7c75a4d27dc73a9f] has joined #lisp 08:48:20 divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:23 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:11 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:56:51 -!- rcy [n=rcy@S01060013102d91ee.ok.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:00:33 -!- H4ns2 [n=Hans@p57BBA4B2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:01:46 -!- divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:05:43 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:07:24 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.98] has joined #lisp 09:07:46 Tordek [n=tordek@host186.190-137-177.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 09:08:12 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8abf-142.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:08:12 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:08:36 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8abf-011.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:09:17 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:10 http://paste.lisp.org/display/72603 anyone else seeing this? 09:18:26 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-29-238.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 09:18:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-29-238.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:20:51 i don't know where "Help!" comes from, but i can relate .. here's the tail of that backtrace by the way; http://paste.lisp.org/display/72603#1 09:23:33 oh .. setting swank:*globally-redirect-io* to NIL (or not setting it to T) in .swank.lisp seems to help .. 09:23:37 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:26:01 lnostdal: it could be that slime-related questions are better-answered in #emacs 09:27:39 oh, people here copy/paste from vim like PG? :) 09:27:51 anyway .. i'll just downgrade slime a bit 09:28:45 lnostdal, what else! 09:28:52 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:28:52 hehe 09:29:41 speaking of which... I might have a few undisturbed days soon. Wonder if I can get started on Frankenswank 09:31:28 what's frankenswank? 09:32:02 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:32:26 Something I just came up with. :) I need a proxy between Vim (that only speaks NetBeans asynch.) and Swank. 09:37:14 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-7c75a4d27dc73a9f] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:40:39 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-226-194.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:41:03 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-226-194.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:59 nostoi [n=nostoi@230.Red-88-23-56.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:43 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-364e9dfd551907a3] has joined #lisp 09:53:08 -!- brianj_otter is now known as brianj_otter_afk 09:53:46 free_tinker_ [n=willijar@host81-156-225-47.range81-156.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 09:58:53 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A1F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:04:56 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@230.Red-88-23-56.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:05:06 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A1F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:42 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-226-194.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:11:25 i have this irrational fear of cl-who, for some reason i still prefer templating because i _think_ cl-who is slow, though without evidence or any experience with it. 10:11:29 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:12:07 Adamant [n=Adamant@71-83-15-2.static.aldl.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:13:21 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-177-106-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:15:47 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 10:16:52 fusss: Actually, because of compile time macro expansions, cl-who runs quite fast, FYI. 10:17:36 fusss: And I'd bet it will outperform a templating engine. 10:18:07 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 10:18:25 as it should. it is just that i still can't relinquish my web "pages" to this we "application"; the idea of one *.lisp file generating multiple "pages" makes me squemish. so i broke them up into one function per file :-D 10:19:20 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 10:19:27 fusss: That is also what other people mostly do. 10:19:28 i am manually keeping track of all the world visible URLs (the ones a user can get to without having a session); i intended to publish those as a sitemap and let google have at it 10:19:38 Adamant [n=Adamant@71-83-15-2.static.aldl.mi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:22:32 and by that I mean _authenticated_ session 10:24:38 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 10:27:00 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8abf-011.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:27:02 -!- bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 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#lisp 10:39:02 _8david: hi! are you here ? 10:40:34 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:41:03 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-226-194.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:41:08 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-219-154-220.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:15 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-24-87.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:41:27 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-226-194.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:03 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DACA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:49 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A18E9.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:49:15 binarin` [n=user@gwn.alt1.ru] has joined #lisp 10:49:41 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-219-154-220.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 10:55:28 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:00:04 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:47 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 11:02:24 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm158.epsilon100.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 11:06:50 -!- binarin [n=user@gwn.alt1.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:06:51 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:07:01 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm158.epsilon100.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Client Quit] 11:07:49 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm158.epsilon100.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 11:07:52 Good evening. 11:08:06 tcr [n=tcr@p4FD3DB28.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:18 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:51 awayekos [n=anekos@pl820.nas924.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:11:51 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:12:10 -!- Phoodus 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jens is now known as Guest22143 13:08:44 -!- Jabberwo_ [n=jens@dslb-082-083-113-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:09:29 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:10:00 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-071-129.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:33 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 13:13:01 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-071-129.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:18:16 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:36 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:21 OT: interested parties should google "IntraBuilder" (circa 1996) and see how borland dropped the ball on *almost* inventing ajax. 13:21:48 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A1F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:23:01 kiuma [i=55123725@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-52a7ea8aa6d5fc5a] has joined #lisp 13:23:31 hi, is there a tool that create a clos class dependency graph ? 13:23:37 they had a javascript driven UI interface which had callbacks to the server. some sort of one-way client to server callback for web application, or two way with their own thick-client gui toolkits. 13:23:42 Does asdf-install have an upgrade action? 13:24:27 drdo`: no 13:24:47 why? 13:24:49 all it does is fetch stuff over http and untar 13:25:06 how should one upgrade then? 13:25:09 fusss: look at WebObjects to see how RoR was almost made many years earlier 13:25:09 drdo`: because nobody loves it enough to work on it? 13:25:58 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6377.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:26:04 drdo`: a decent way to keep an up-to-date collection of lisp software is to use clbuild 13:26:04 -!- Guest22143 [n=jens@dslb-082-083-124-131.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:26:34 drdo`: clearly, we were waiting for you to build that. So start hacking :) 13:26:35 drdo` just asdf install it again 13:26:46 it will overwrite the old 13:27:39 Adamant: they all crashed against the wall that is LAMP 13:29:02 fusss: rails only had the timing right. When it started running decently, many php-developpers were fed-up with that crappy language they were using 13:29:27 ppl, I'm writing the claw manual, WebObects and all will seem old when it will be finally released! 13:29:53 minion: claw 13:29:53 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``claw''. 13:30:25 fusss: it's actually on common-lisp.net svn 13:30:36 the first output of the manual is 13:30:47 hunchentoot-based? 13:30:49 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:30:57 here http://www.wingstech.com/clawdoc/claw.pdf 13:31:09 fusss: more or less 13:31:40 details please :-) 13:31:41 hunchentoot in claw is a http connector service 13:32:18 fusss: just take a look at the first 1/3 of the manual :) 13:32:55 it's an application server i18n aware, with a component based framework and much more 13:33:26 I'll use these holidays to fixup the site and build an alpha release 13:34:18 looks cool actually. keep it up. 13:35:08 I like the injection system and the id generation handling :) 13:35:36 did the last slime commit break the repl or is it just me? 13:36:15 Seems like heller is doing some work. I wouldn't update until after christmas holidays 13:36:31 roger 13:36:35 you create a component library load it with asdf and it's ready to use into your lisplets with all his resources 13:36:53 weirdo: but report your problem 13:36:54 kiuma: The intoduction has stayed the same, I see :) I'm interested in it too, feel free to drop me a message when you have a stable feature-set (which will probably be the alpha release). I'd like to throw that manual (which seems more like an introduction than a manual te be honoust) at a friend of mine, in the hopes that we'll use lisp in the future. 13:37:03 tcr, where, the mailing list? 13:37:44 weirdo: yeah 13:37:49 kiuma: allso, I didn't find the buzzwords MVC and ORDB in there, it might be good to 'point out' that they exist (cl-perec for ORDB could be nice. MVC could be, well, 'lisp' ;)) 13:37:52 weirdo: it's available from gmane 13:38:32 madnificent: it's a model 2 13:38:37 not MVC 13:38:42 that I hate 13:38:53 what is model 2? 13:39:14 kiuma: could you elaborate on that? MVC is something that buyers seem to have heard of (and thus they want it (just like they want an iPhone)) 13:39:48 alright, seems like google took me to java hell for that query 13:40:26 let me try to explain with java samples, where I'm more confident 13:40:43 an MVC is more like the hell of struts 13:40:58 kiuma: btw, I don't know what model 2 is either. (Perhaps something to elaborate on in the post-alpha release manual?) 13:41:15 wow, gmane's the best thing since sliced bread 13:41:29 I don't like very much this terminology 13:41:38 kiuma: in java it is, in lisp MVC can be done correctly 13:41:43 MVC is a model3 anyway 13:42:23 kiuma: could you try to explain what model 2 is? We can find the differences with MVC, I guess 13:42:23 I prefer the distrinction between "action based" and "component based" 13:43:04 so plz let's talk about the based thing, that it's a better distinction 13:44:09 kiuma: call my name when I may start to interfere (questions etc) 13:44:11 madnificent: in an action based framework you have the MVC that I think you already know 13:44:22 yes 13:44:23 ok 13:45:03 madnificent: in a component based model, there is only the component and the rendering engine 13:45:09 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:45:15 define component 13:46:03 madnificent: component is a clos object that comes with it's presentation logic and methods 13:46:30 kiuma: which is the equivalent of the model in MVC, right? 13:46:44 weirdo: you didn't know it? 13:47:04 tcr, didn't happen to use it somehow 13:47:17 madnificent: no in MVC there is the model the view and the controller 13:47:20 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A1F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:42 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:47:45 the model in mvc refers to the data 13:47:51 kiuma: yes, but what would be in the model, is now in a component... 13:48:03 madnificent: no 13:48:11 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:17 take a look at the bottom of the manual 13:48:21 xristos: data and application 'real-world' logic. Thus everything to keep it in a consistent state. 13:48:48 working with forms? 13:48:55 "you first form" sorry for the syntax error 13:49:54 -!- carbocalm [i=carbocal@206-248-174-193.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:50:03 madnificent isn't the logic implemented in the controller ? 13:50:26 i thought separatation between data presentation and logic was what mvc was all about 13:50:49 *separation 13:51:03 xristos: the controller contains the actions the outside world may use. It should allow you to decouple everything (which fails about everywhere, and seems to be accepted) 13:51:26 xristos: not really that is about layers , the presentation one and the business one 13:51:41 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:51:50 i dont know mvc in terms of rails or other web frameworks 13:52:08 just how it works in apple cocoa 13:52:28 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.98] has joined #lisp 13:52:30 kiuma: thing is, I don't see you updating any data in the framework, so I can't really figure out how you want to do that (certainly, there are many ways). 13:52:31 madnificent: the fact is that too much decoupling makes mess, and I'm working since a long time with these technologies 13:52:52 is there a keypress to get an empty repl input? 13:53:09 enter ? 13:53:10 for now it only works as lean-on-C-n-and-kill-the-last-expr 13:53:30 madnificent: what do you mean ? the form submission updates page slots in the example 13:53:39 it used to give empty input with one more C-n 13:53:40 this is the magic 13:53:42 kiuma: agreed. i remember MFC, and recently Cake. 13:53:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 13:54:14 weirdo just kill the line 13:54:20 if you have something written 13:54:22 fusss: ms is poison for me 13:54:25 kiuma: to some extent it is. I personally believe that the controller should be replaceable with a package-definition in lisp. (which means: hey, these methods are for you View) It provides the same amount of separation for the user and none of the mess. But then again, we must use Java, so that isn't possible 13:54:55 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3657.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:17 madnificent: have you ever used Tapestry ? 13:55:19 kiuma: it throws around data, but it doesn't store it anywhere outside of the page, does it? 13:55:35 kiuma: no, enlighten (or delighten, depending on what it is) me 13:55:58 madnificent: this should be delegated to the business layer 13:56:35 madnificent: for example the index-page-say-hello could store it to a database 13:56:47 kiuma: yes, I was hoping to see an example of that form of delegation (albeit I don't believe it would belong in the manual) 13:57:07 kiuma: okay, may I suggest something mvc-like now? 13:57:21 as a question, not as something that needs to be done 13:57:27 madnificent: do you beleave there isn't already :P 13:57:30 ? 13:57:45 madnificent: of course I've done it :P :P :P 13:58:16 *madnificent* can't parse kiuma's last statements ;_; 13:58:40 madnificent: if you are curious there is a demo on the common-lisp.net 13:58:50 madnificent: wait... 13:58:56 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 14:00:04 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 14:00:28 madnificent: here you'll find business layer, ormdb, unit tests, and presentation layer :) http://common-lisp.net/websvn/listing.php?repname=claw&path=%2Ftrunk%2Fmain%2Fclaw-demo%2F&rev=0&sc=0 14:01:36 kiuma: oh thanks! 14:02:12 jsnell: here? 14:02:25 madnificent: wait a bit... 14:02:45 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:03:01 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:03:13 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6377.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:03:25 as a stupid last question, don't the exported symbols in claw-demo-backend have the same goal as a controller would have? (and then indeed, render it useless to implement) 14:03:41 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:04:33 madnificent: no 14:04:57 tcr: yes? 14:05:06 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:05:25 madnificent: the controller is usually somewhat related to the 'web' things 14:05:35 brb 14:05:41 the claw-demo-backend might stay alone 14:05:55 kiuma: wait, I'm not talking about web-MVC, I'm talking about true-MVC 14:07:51 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6377.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:17 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:52 jsnell: the comment of sb-impl::entry-hash says something that the length argument should be between 2 and 255; however, often the length of a symbol's name is passed to entry-hash which does not necessarily suffice to that assertion. Do you know the code are in question? 14:09:44 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279441402.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:11:53 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5098.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:12:17 madnificent: ? 14:14:01 well the demo is online again: http://www.wingstech.it/claw/demo/index.html 14:14:26 back 14:14:43 madnificent: the demo online ^^ 14:15:08 kiuma: in web-MVC is what we most see of MVC, but it is not at all what MVC should be about. web-MVC allows the controller to redirect users to other pages, where this should clearly be a goal of tho view itself 14:15:55 I have the controller of course 14:16:21 madnificent: I've written little, but the basics are on the manual 14:16:22 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a69-072.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:16:46 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a61-130.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:17:07 for example the controller is able to automatically redirect on https when asking for protected resources :) 14:17:56 kiuma: I believe you follow what I believe is the correct path of doing MVC on the web, with your effort to avoid it :D 14:18:21 kiuma: the app looks rather nice, how much time did you spend to create it? 14:18:42 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:19:07 madnificent: the app or the framework ? 14:19:36 the framework 14:19:52 madnificent: the app much more fater then creating it in java (and I'm very good in java, but not in lisp) 14:20:18 madnificent: it only took some time on bugfixing clsql 14:20:21 kiuma: I'm going to have to compare it to RoR :) 14:20:23 and extending 14:20:43 tcr: having looked at the code, I don't see why the length would need to be in that range 14:21:02 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:21:03 kiuma: but clsql isn't really part of the framework, so that may be replaced with whatever, right? (I have been impressed by cl-perec) 14:21:37 tcr: oh, actually the comment is saying that the return value must be in that range 14:22:24 jsnell: uhm, d'oh. 14:22:48 bitten by ambiguities of the english language 14:23:27 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:23:31 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.102.158] has joined #lisp 14:23:45 Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 14:24:05 madnificent: yes I used it only for personal taste 14:24:24 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:26:31 madnificent: even if my favourite db is Postgresql not every customer have it, cl-sql permits to attach to virtually any db 14:26:45 kiuma: AFAICT your system is the only thing I've seen for the web, that you can actually plug in front of an MVC-capable backend. Allso, it forms a great seperation between the web-part of an application and the functional code that drives it. Congrats! 14:27:26 kiuma: I think cl-perec should be able to handle other databases, but that only the postgres has been implemented (don't know for sure though) 14:27:33 jsnell: I'm trying to write a find-package* that works like find-symbol*, i.e. that computes the hash for the package-name from a subsequence of a string. 14:27:36 and yes, mysql is certainly prefered over mysql 14:27:51 thank you madnificent , I'm very glad that someone is starting to appreciate my efforts 14:28:02 s/over mysql/postgresql by many contractors/ 14:28:53 jsnell: Is there a way to get an element from a hash-table for a self-computed hash? I don't see any so far. 14:29:13 kiuma: hey, I haven't decently checked out much of the other frameworks! Don't sue me if I'm wrong :P. Keep in mind that many people have learned a framework before coming seeing your work, or aren't at all interested in the web. Allso bare in mind that many probably feel like there are too many lisp-frameworks allready 14:29:13 madnificent: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/100001/mvc-or-event-driven-component-oriented-web-frameworks 14:30:01 tcr: no, you'd need an extra layer of indirection 14:30:36 madnificent: I know , I know. but I think mine is very different from the others 14:30:46 brb 14:30:52 or you mean non-portably? 14:31:05 jsnell: I mean for sbcl 14:31:10 kiuma: well, the first commentor doesn't seem to understand MVC :P As most webdevs apparantly. 14:31:36 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:31:54 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.7.135] has joined #lisp 14:33:05 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:33:22 jsnell: from what I see, I'd have to split up %gethash3 into a %gethash3-internal 14:34:19 kiuma: which is not necessarily a good thing for people to like it :) The way you split your application from the other code in an application is convincing enough for me. With some minor work, it should allow me to change CLAW by something else if it would come round. I assume that anything that is reasonably better would need to help the programmer to exactly that same point where CLAW lets the commands go to the backend. That 14:34:19 should be a very good selling-point. 14:35:18 Odin-MAC_ [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 14:35:42 tcr: you could probably kludge together something horrible with a custom test and equal function for the table 14:36:25 why do you need this? 14:37:24 jsnell: For find-package* which takes the whole read-buffer from the reader and a offset where the package qualified in that buffer ends 14:37:37 s/qualified/qualifier/ 14:39:06 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:39:30 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:40:05 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:40:11 so find-package* can't use gethash but something-like (gethash-from-hash-value (%sxhash-simple-substring buffer offset) *package-names*) 14:41:23 -!- Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:41:38 ok. a custom hash and test would seem reasonable for that 14:42:27 kiuma: woa, I see something evil. Realm should really be a keyword, not a string. You can convert that to a fully qualified string by printing it or something like that. Using a string is begging for trouble 14:42:59 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.102.158] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:43:16 jsnell: I'm not sure how that is supposed to work out. The custom hash fun would be involved with the key (i.e. the whole buffer), wouldn't it? Where does it get the offset from? 14:43:30 s/involved/invoked/ 14:43:33 kiuma: symbol, even (keyword doesn't solve anything, bad naming of myself) 14:43:56 madnificent: I can convert it in a symbol, no problem. But why ? 14:44:22 tcr: you'd look up a (list buffer offset length) 14:44:31 in in alpha status so changes can happen 14:46:28 kiuma: if you develop multiple applications, you will let them reside in different namespaces. If someone creates a realm called "notes" within package :myorg.users and someone else uses that same realm to administer information about an order in package :myorg.orders, then you'll have trouble with strings. However, if they are named in different packages, that can never happen :) 14:46:44 jsnell: Ah, ok. Thank you. 14:46:51 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:46:53 kiuma: in case that sounds like utter mess, I'll write it down better :) 14:47:40 -!- _adeht is now known as adeht 14:47:48 madnificent: lisplets (that are web applications) may or may not share the same realm 14:47:59 TDT [n=TDT@143.108.177.207.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:10 madnificent: it's a feature not a bug 14:48:44 madnificent: for example you might be authenticated for all lisplats that share the same realm 14:49:15 hey all. Kinda had a question that kinda half deals with emacs, and kinda half deals with lisp..not sure the best place to ask it but here it is. I'm fairly new to lisp, and wanted to write something simple with drakma, and am using sbcl (more) 14:49:34 TDT: ask away 14:50:26 madnificent: and share user sessions as well 14:50:46 madnificent: or not , depending what you want 14:51:22 Basically I am developing a function that simply queries a page. I found the example code I'm trying to toss in the function, but the problem is with (require) and the functions in that. I'm doing this through slime. I tried sticking everything from require, then in-package, set-header, and http-request - but all the drakma related stuff isn't seen as available. Do requires go outside a function declaration? And when testing a function in sli 14:52:19 what do you think "require" does? 14:52:25 This is part usability, part lisp...what would help me t emost is seeing some example code of how to use drakma in a library type setting, unfortunately my luck at finding anything more than basic stuff is tough. 14:53:01 fusss: Well, assuming that require is similar to that of include or import in other languages, importing the library functions available for use, so stuff like http-request can be used. 14:53:47 I've used various languages that allow the equivalent of include in the header, as well as anywhere in the code you want - but haven't mesed with require yet in PCL. 14:55:08 do you use sbcl ? 14:55:17 you should write an .asd file for your system and have it depend on drakma 14:55:31 yes either that 14:55:36 xristos: Yeah, using sbcl through slime 14:55:43 or if you just want to play around, (require :drakma) 14:55:55 then use drakma:http-request 14:56:32 and if you dont want to prefix everything all the time 14:56:41 make a new package and have it use drakma 14:56:51 all exported symbols from drakma will be imported into your new package then 14:57:03 Ah ok, so that's what the in-package thing was for, that makes a lot more sense. 14:57:08 something like, (defpackage :test (:use :cl :drakma)) 14:57:14 (in-package :test) 14:57:45 kiuma: that is possible with packages too, you refer to that keyword (in the right package), thus ensuring that users know they are using the shared login, instead of the non-shared one :) 14:58:00 *nod* yeah, that's what the example code shown..let me paste the link, http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2008-06/msg00797.html -- this has been helpful, but command by command in the interpreter, not by making a function to do all this. 14:58:05 TDT: http://weitz.de/packages.html 14:58:10 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B6377.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:58:14 fusss pasted "drakma example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72609 14:58:30 kiuma: on top of that, a package can choose not to export certain keywords, hinting to users that that data is private to that application (ofcourse, there is always a workaround for that in lisp) 14:58:54 kiuma: btw, sorry for the late response, people keep dropping in here and asking questions :) 14:59:11 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:59:44 i'd rather not :use package, but write abstraction functions on top of that package, hence i will not have prefixing and can change library anytime 14:59:45 madnificent: I think you are right! A symbol will prevent developers to accidentally share realms 15:00:04 fusss: wow thanks for putting that together, and thanks adeht for the link. I'm reading both now. 15:00:08 madnificent: I'll change it, thanks for pointing it out 15:00:27 TDT: imo, at any given point, your project should be able to build with a single command; asdf load-op frequently or your running lisp will diverge from the written code as you add an delete code. 15:00:47 errr 15:01:06 fusss there is no need for that 15:01:13 you can incrementally compile things 15:02:11 i evaluate expressions as soon as i type them, redefining is fine. but someone with a long running lisp image, it's really hard to keep a mental model of what's already there 15:02:27 kiuma: many many thanks for creating and accepting user input :D I feel like I'm going to use this sometime, I might even write plugins for it some day (like what they do in rails, only lisp doesn't require a complex mechanism to support extensions :)) 15:02:46 What I was thinking of doing is testing certain functionality that I would wrap in a function, say login, or whatever, then push that to the library. the .asd files I've seen, but only in the last 2 days of reading about drakma. 15:03:23 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:03:56 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:04:26 -!- ths [n=ths@X6f1f.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:04:43 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 15:04:55 So (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :tdt-library) -- that should essentially rebyte-compile all my source, so changing the .asd file by adding a function here and there and this should "refresh" right? 15:04:59 elurin [n=user@85.99.194.140] has joined #lisp 15:05:50 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:05:54 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:05:56 TDT: you can press C-M-x in slime when the cursor is on/near the form you have just written, and it will evaluate that form for you 15:06:02 no need for asdf here 15:06:17 kiuma: in your example application, changing the user, forces me to rewrite his password. That is probably not needed (I clicked save, and got that warning) 15:06:32 vehicle is done, gotta detach the screen, will be back later to at least copy this buffer, lots of good information. Thanks again for your help, and ah ok fusss , I haven'tused much more than just recompiling one function. (afk) 15:06:42 asdf shines if your library has large dependencies that you might be forced to load manually yourself 15:07:14 cheers! 15:08:21 kiuma: please don't see this as me hammering on your work. I wouldn't care if I didn't like what I'm seeing 15:10:55 madnificent: comments and suggestions are always well accepted here! 15:11:02 madnificent: so thanks! 15:12:07 kiuma: do you have a mailinglist or something of the likes? 15:12:24 madnificent: sure 15:12:56 madnificent: http://common-lisp.net/project/claw/mailinglists.shtml 15:13:36 madnificent: also patches are welcome here :P 15:14:21 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:14:32 one time madnificent was asked to have a dinner with a super model and enjoy his own private performance by Led Zeppelin. in return, all he had to do was give his honest feedback on the quality of the dinner at a new 6 star hotel. 15:14:32 madnificent: don't be scared about the web design, I'll change it soon :) 15:15:04 he said the food and lady were OK, but Zeppelin was only three people. 15:16:08 *fusss* thinks that one is gonna fall flat 15:16:28 ehu` [i=91dd3448@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-cb926addb428ae04] has joined #lisp 15:16:47 fusss: ? WTH ? 15:17:23 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:17:38 obscure reference to an obscure comedian, at your expense :-P fell flat. i know 15:17:47 -!- ehu` [i=91dd3448@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-cb926addb428ae04] has left #lisp 15:18:16 fusss: paste me more info on that comedian next week :) This 'll end up in a dream first :P 15:18:52 *fusss* thinks there is very little overlap between software geeks and theater geeks 15:19:50 ok time to go home for me now, Merry Xmass to all! 15:19:54 sadly, I am a cultural barbarian. I do want to know more about it, there is just so little time. (but I am catching up) 15:20:14 merry Christmas kiuma, thanks for the present (framework) 15:20:28 merry christmas kiuma 15:20:55 -!- kiuma [i=55123725@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-52a7ea8aa6d5fc5a] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:21:34 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:21:35 milanj [n=milan@93.86.214.112] has joined #lisp 15:21:52 madnificent: no worries, not even the "in crowd" of theater geeks are cultured. i only got into it because of my other half, who is a performer. 15:22:04 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:24:59 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.194.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:25:01 fusss: you got me more interested 15:26:33 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:26:34 just when i became aware of how offtopic I am :-P 15:26:44 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.223.10] has joined #lisp 15:27:57 ice_four [n=ice_four@host86-131-244-48.range86-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 15:29:43 Am I overlooking a command in paredit to kill sexp? 15:30:32 nvm, I guess that's already provided by lisp.el 15:30:50 s/guess/see 15:31:26 -!- jao [n=user@172.Red-81-32-181.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:47 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has left #lisp 15:31:56 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:33:11 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:33:50 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:36:53 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3657.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:37:06 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:38:31 nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-181-77-121.cncdnh.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:34 Hello all. 15:38:40 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:39:47 Hrm. Did the SBCL CVS host change since 1.0.18.25? 15:40:12 nyef: 6 months ago... Wasn't that around the debian ssh snafu? 15:40:18 Ah, that might be it. 15:40:38 I'll just kill out my known_hosts entry for it. 15:41:28 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:59 How can I within the sbcl sources define a hash-table with custom hash-fun and test-fun? 15:44:27 I could invoke %make-hash-table, but I'd have to copy some default values from make-hash-table 15:44:46 there's something like sb!int:define-hash-table-test, which has a bit of a lame interface 15:46:03 Ah, so I can use that one within cold-init. 15:52:10 costal [n=draven@shm67-2-82-227-190-152.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:11 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:52:28 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120121]"] 15:52:35 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:53:45 Are alpha and x86-64 the only backends where sap-ref-32 and sap-ref-word are disjoint? 15:55:01 what's SAP? system area pointer? 15:55:31 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-204-158.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:54 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279441402.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:56:17 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279441402.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:56:30 -!- mulander [n=user@nat-4.interq.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:58:37 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3657.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:03:33 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:06:12 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D8B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:06:48 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:07:17 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D8B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:55 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:09:16 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:36 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E43E5D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:41 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:10:49 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44E12.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:11:50 nyef_ [n=nyef@pool-71-181-63-210.cncdnh.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:59 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-181-77-121.cncdnh.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:06 Hrm. I got disconnected a while ago, it seems. 16:13:10 -!- nyef_ is now known as nyef 16:13:42 Is sparc the only non-x86oid that SBCL supports long-floats on? 16:14:10 ('cause if not, I'd be surprised if the debugger works right on them.) 16:16:09 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:18:48 I don't think even x86 supports long-floats 16:19:03 the bits of code that are still there are vestigial 16:19:22 Mmm... So a behavior-preserving integration, no matter how obviously stupid, would suffice for now? 16:19:27 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 16:19:45 *nyef* is trying to unite the two sub-access-debug-var-slot functions. 16:20:44 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-31-172.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 16:20:55 if getting rid of long-float support in any part of the code makes things easier, doing so is fine by me 16:21:08 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:21:28 It's not that it's easier or harder, it's that it's less obviously messed up. 16:21:37 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:21:49 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:22:17 (escaped-complex-float-value long-float #!+sparc 4 #!+(or x86 x86-64) 1 #!-(or sparc x86 x86-64) 0) 16:22:52 And that number is the offset from the real part to the imaginary part. 16:23:42 I'm thinking that changing the behavior is out of scope, and putting in a comment saying that it's broken is in scope. 16:28:35 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.98] has joined #lisp 16:30:55 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:38 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 16:35:29 silas428 [n=ryan@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:46 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279441402.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 16:36:00 -!- netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@cpe-67-243-48-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 16:43:18 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.223.10] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 16:44:27 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:09 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 16:46:15 bleh I get into ldb during warm init 16:48:15 so... how do I remote sbcl when the failure mode is dropping into ldb? 16:48:20 complex-float reminds me that the object definition for complex-single-float lies to the runtime. 16:48:20 jbjohns_ [n=chatzill@182-135.106-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 16:48:34 and merry xmas eve morning folks 16:48:40 Hello slyrus. 16:48:46 hello slyrus 16:50:14 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-177-106-178.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:50 Hrm... Looks like this part of the debugger might not be excersized in the test suite. 16:51:10 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:18 -!- jbjohns_ is now known as jbjohns 16:51:24 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:52:27 what I see in gdb doesn't equal to what trace-file show for GET-INFO-VALUE, how can that be ? 16:53:27 lhz: Well, the first possibilities to come to mind are broken gdb, wrong trace-file, and lack of experience in how to see these things. 16:55:00 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:55:47 How can I define functions that are available during cold-init? There seems to be no DEF!FUN 16:56:10 tcr: Just defun them? 16:57:03 nyef: I've relied on those three things so far.. But yes I have a problem finding what I want in trace-file. I was thinking of if an gc has put some other function at that position. 16:57:08 If they're in the cold-core, genesis will fake up the static linking. 16:57:20 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 16:58:05 lhz: Ah. Yeah, GC can move things around a bit sometimes. Do you have access to any of the objects that you -know- are correct? 16:58:12 (Like, say, a function object?) 17:02:28 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:03:51 nyef: what do you mean ? like anything found in cold-core.map ? 17:04:04 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:04:24 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:04:47 Basically, if the map is no good because of a GC, you still need to be able to find things. 17:06:04 -!- Odin-MAC_ [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 17:06:10 Stuff in static space won't have moved (obviously), so that's a place you can start from. 17:06:26 Anything in the machine registers or stack can be somewhere to look. 17:07:30 ironChicken [n=richard@79-75-104-125.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 17:07:30 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 17:08:10 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:08:14 So if you're looking for the code to GET-INFO-VALUE, you probably want to start from its function object, its fdefinition object, its name (which is a symbol), some object which you know refers to one of the above, and so on. 17:08:15 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:09:07 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-227-42.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 17:09:10 Worst comes to worst, go in through the package system. Some symbols are in static space, so they won't have moved, so you can look at them to find their package object... 17:09:26 nyef: ah I see, I do a manual symbol-function lookup ? 17:09:51 Yeah, and then you can go from the function to the code-object if you want to explore that far back. 17:09:58 (Can be helpful if it's a closure.) 17:10:36 Clearly, there is some demand for a better early-system-debugger than gdb. 17:11:21 nyef: that is not the worst... I have done alot of dumping from entry-point and comparing with cold-core, and taking that cold-core offset to find the entry in cold-map :) 17:11:52 Umm... Why? 17:12:05 nyef: because of gc 17:12:18 Entry point is at a known offset from function header, from there getting the name should be easy. 17:13:33 Well, the first part of this unification built (second try, forgot to put commas in a backquote for a new local macro). 17:14:15 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:14:50 lispy christmas, everyone! 17:15:11 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:15:16 lispm: Indeed. Lispy christmas to you too! 17:16:31 Santa Claus has enough parentheses for everyone! 17:19:29 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:54 clhs #! 17:24:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm 17:25:00 Err... 17:25:02 clhs #+ 17:25:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 17:25:44 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:27:26 Hrm... That's a little underspecified. 17:27:47 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-76-208.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 17:27:50 hi Fare 17:27:53 Hopefully it means I can do #!+(and long-float (not (or x86 x86-64))). 17:27:53 ok so it seems I can't use sb!int:define-hash-table-test during cold init 17:28:07 hi! 17:28:22 any idea about the module namespace? 17:28:38 There will of course be a hierarchical namespace, but... 17:29:10 mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:11 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:22 1- is it OK to map the directory structure to the namespace, like Perl, Java, Python, PLT, ... all do? I think so. 17:30:57 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:31:23 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:31:32 2- should I have some kind of URIs for module's "truename"s? 17:31:57 or is it OK to have a big large mishmash of modules on the top level? 17:33:20 Fare: iirc, there were hindsight arguments against Java's directory structure namespace, but I can't reproduce them now 17:34:28 *_3b* tends to find the directory structure=namespace thing annoying, but that might be due to only using such languages for small projects 17:34:59 Fare: this is for xcvb? 17:35:03 yes 17:35:13 I'm trying to design the module naming issue. 17:35:36 Fare: this is perhaps unrelated, but downloading and installation of modules is out of scope for xcvb, right? 17:40:44 Heh! Setting (complex single-float) values that are on the stack in the debugger on non-x86oids is broken. 17:43:16 -!- costal [n=draven@shm67-2-82-227-190-152.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:43:27 Is there any real difference between (the single-float (realpart value)) and (realpart (the (complex single-float) value)) on sbcl? 17:43:27 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-177-106-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:43:57 Looking in objdef.lisp and call.lisp xep-allocate-frame as a start. To get the symbol from only the entry-point I would need some hand holding. What is the next step ? 17:44:08 Does the normal hunchentoot dispatcher stuff clash with weblocks? 17:45:03 nyef: #c(0.0 42) 17:45:27 lhz: Umm... Looks like four slots before the start of code is the function name. 17:45:56 pkhuong: Okay, so I should probably stick with my rule of preserving behavior here. 17:46:32 elurin [n=user@85.99.194.140] has joined #lisp 17:46:35 nyef: should I look at define-primitive-object simple-fun ? 17:47:01 pkhuong: Umm, wait. That's a (complex (single-float 0.0 42.0)) according to describe. 17:47:04 lhz: Yeah. 17:47:51 clhs 12.1.5.3 17:47:51 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/12_aec.htm 17:48:04 lhz: And if you need to go back from there, the "header value" of a simple-fun is the number of words it is offset within the surrounding code-object. 17:48:21 costal [n=draven@shm67-2-82-227-190-152.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:48:29 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:49:22 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-209-245.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:49:23 michaelw, eventually, xcvb will grow some software distribution mechanism, too, I presume (or coopt an existing one) 17:50:02 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:50:04 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:50:04 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 17:50:15 It seems to me that mixing systems/modules with projects is a bad idea. 17:50:16 pkhuong: So... No, there isn't really much difference, as both sides of a complex are required to be of the same type? 17:50:18 nyef: ok, so rationals are converted to floats, but floats are left as they were. so #c(0.0 0d0) 17:50:27 Fare: who's swm ? 17:50:49 pkhuong: (complex (double-float 0.0d0 0.0d0)). 17:50:53 nyef: I have the entry-point. Is xep-allocate-fram helping me to find where the simple-fun structure is placed before the entry-point ? 17:51:27 lhz: xep-allocate-frame is the entry point, and possibly the simple-fun structure as well. 17:51:40 I forget at this point if it does the function header emission. 17:51:47 Where are the internal errors defined? I can an internal error #26 17:51:58 Fare: it might then be a good idea to read about Debian's complaints of ruby and python's distribution mechanisms; most of the issues apply to lisp as well 17:52:06 nyef: its generator contains (inst simple-fun-header-word) 17:52:32 tcr: They're probably in the genesis headers somewhere, or they're in src/compiler/generic/interr.lisp. 17:53:13 tcr: It's an enumerated list, so finding them in the genesis headers or looking at sb!c:*backend-internal-errors* is likely your best bet. 17:53:15 src/runtime/genesis/constants.h 17:54:26 nyef: just saw that one... I'm reading 3 pages at the same time now and can't see where that's specified. 17:55:02 lhz: Yeah, that's the header, then there's a dotimes for the slots before simple-fun-code-offset for the rest of the header data. That gets fixed up during load. 17:55:21 thank you jsnell, nyef. #26 seems to be unbound symbol error; is there a way to get from ldb the name of the symbol? 17:57:25 tcr: Not easily? 17:57:41 anyone has emacs code to make lisp-mode align like this? 17:57:42 (foo bar baz :xenu 666 17:57:42 :quux 42) 17:57:53 yes, "print" 17:58:17 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:59:00 -!- mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:59:15 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:58 also macro lambda lists are indented badly after line breaks and quasiquotation stuff is sometimes indented like single-quotation 18:01:41 salex [n=user@ardbeg.math.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 18:04:08 nyef: so, yes, both must of the same float type or both rationals (2.3.2.3, but there must be a better place) 18:04:10 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:04:26 -!- silas428 [n=ryan@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:05:24 <_3b> pkhuong: the description of the type says the same thing 18:05:43 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-68-237.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:07:42 -!- anekos_ [n=anekos@pl641.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:07:49 randomwalker [n=me@cpe-70-116-29-132.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:07:57 <_3b> nyef: does realpart working on non-complex numbers matter to the original question? 18:08:19 nyef, thanks, entry-point minus 4 words pointed to a symbol which I could take the symbol-function of. 18:08:21 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 18:08:28 _3b: Umm... I don't know? 18:08:53 lhz: And that symbol-function was... the same entry-point? 18:09:09 nyef, yes :( 18:09:27 lhz: But now you can get the symbol's print-name! 18:10:16 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.7.135] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:10:19 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:11:46 minion, memo for attila_lendvai: hey, could it possibly be done to check out immutable data from the DB without with-transaction? 18:11:46 Remembered. I'll tell attila_lendvai when he/she/it next speaks. 18:12:45 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:13:43 nyef, yes now I've learnt that. Thanks alot, a real time-saver. 18:13:48 awayekos [n=anekos@pl641.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:14:18 lhz: Would having a more... sbcl-aware debugger than gdb help you at all? 18:14:36 -!- awayekos is now known as anekos 18:15:57 -!- brianj_otter_afk is now known as brianj_otter 18:16:28 -!- billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:34 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:21:38 fe[nl]ix, Scott McKay - worked on Symbolics Lisp machines and Dylan 18:22:24 luis: what would you recommend? 18:22:30 nyef: alot of things in gdb could be done easier/automated. Also I haven't event begun to explore ldb, so it is much my own fault. 18:22:49 Good evening. 18:23:14 I've heard someone started cleaning the code to make builds reproducible. 18:23:49 Fare: and CLIM! 18:24:03 Is there any progress in the area? 18:24:14 and DUIM 18:24:30 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:24:58 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:25:42 -!- NoorDextor [n=Game450@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["Go Canada!"] 18:27:46 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-232-22.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 18:28:18 cool 18:28:27 Fare: I met him at Bordeaux 18:29:04 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:29:06 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:29:12 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:55 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:55 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:30:17 Anyone want to read my paper on arxiv? Its about a computational machine. 18:30:18 http://arxiv.org/pdf/0812.4009 18:31:56 Fare: well, just don't do it. Let someone else handle that. 18:33:05 e.g., people can package things up for Debian, use clbuild, something else 18:33:20 nyef_ [n=nyef@pool-71-168-87-178.cncdnh.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:38 luis: that's not exactly my point 18:34:46 Is a DEFVAR available at Cold Init time, too? I really wonder where the unbound variable error comes from. 18:34:48 whoever comes and fetch the things, 18:35:02 there should be some way to look for them, and name them. 18:35:48 for instance, debian installs stuff in /usr/share/common-lisp/source and asdf is in a directory cl-asdf/ etc. 18:35:51 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 18:35:57 Should I call the module asdf or cl-asdf? 18:36:15 If I call it asdf, how do I manage the name mapping? 18:36:16 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0EE63.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:32 I would consider what Debian is _currently_ doing as cast in stone, FWIW. cleaning up things like that could come when infrastructure is in place. 18:39:48 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:40:14 Well, so that xcvb may see the packages, they will have to have been converted, anyway, so the directory naming may/will have to change. 18:40:45 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-76-208.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 18:41:53 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-181-63-210.cncdnh.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:42:28 at least the stuff inside the directory. 18:43:30 I can imagine automatically populating /usr/share/common-lisp/modules/ by converting stuff from /usr/share/common-lisp/source/ 18:43:48 another proposal is that all modules should follow some convention like 18:44:16 net.common-lisp/xcvb/foo 18:44:38 or maybe common-lisp.net/project/xcvb/foo 18:45:18 I think it's way overkill, but oh well, it raises an issue: 18:45:39 What do you do when your domain expires? 18:45:41 you want to use short names when possible 18:45:44 tcr: there's a setf form at the beginning of cold-init.lisp. 18:45:49 nyef_, that's one thing 18:46:03 but short names may clash 18:46:29 and sometimes you really want to be part of a larger thing, and yet use the short name while focused on the small part. 18:47:04 Fare: module- and site- local nicknames? 18:47:09 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:47:42 I had imagined that every package would have a "fullname" as well as nicknames, where the fullname is indeed of the form common-lisp.net/foo -- and that there be some kind of registry of what module is where (automatically updatable on demand) 18:47:51 pkhuong, yes 18:48:15 I think this bit of hacking is done. Should I just commit it, or should I save it off to send to sbcl-devel when I sit down to sort out my email? 18:48:21 so you'd say "this is xcvb/foo, fullname common-lisp.net/project/xcvb/foo" 18:48:42 nyef_, what is it? 18:48:44 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-227-42.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:49:03 Fare: phorplay ? 18:49:17 Unifying the x86oid and non-x86oid versions of sub-access-debug-var-slot and sub-set-debug-var-slot. 18:49:22 In src/code/debug-int.lisp. 18:49:42 I'm fairly certain that it's behavior-preserving. 18:50:33 fe[nl]ix, cute name, isn't it? 18:51:21 fe[nl]ix, umbrella under which I'm going to publish git repos for fare-utils, fare-matcher, exscribe, and a lot more 18:51:36 ok 18:52:29 free food in a conference room -- gotta run while it's still there! 18:53:09 Fare: Enjoy! 18:53:18 pkhuong: what about the setf form there? 18:54:02 Fare: remember tanstaafl :D 18:54:21 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D8B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:40 fe[nl]ix: Maybe it's an afternoon snack, not lunch? 18:55:03 tcr: you can add your own initialisation in there. If your symbol is in static space, there's another place to set the right value when the first core is written. 18:57:44 pkhuong: Well, so DEFVARs do not have its initialization value in cold-init? 18:58:17 avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:19 I wasn't fast enough. Only drinks left. 18:58:49 Right, time for me to go, hopefully I'll be back later today. 18:58:55 -!- nyef_ [n=nyef@pool-71-168-87-178.cncdnh.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Gotta run."] 18:58:58 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:59:13 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:05 scanning directories eagerly to build a module map allows for arbitrary name/location combinations - at the price of having to know when to rescan. 19:00:24 tcr: I don't think so. 19:01:06 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 19:01:25 I just started using SLIME. Dammit, now I'm spoiled for every other programming environment. 19:01:32 a simple directory-name -> module-name mapping is much simpler (and how most other languages seem to work, which should tip me) 19:02:42 ah, there we go. ldb. 19:04:23 I'm beginning to think that my sb-ext:run-process isn't something reliable enough to use in a web server 19:04:28 s/my// 19:06:23 slyrus, did you resolve the race-condition in run-command ? 19:06:32 nope 19:06:43 didn't someone post a patch about it? 19:06:51 hrm... 19:07:55 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:17 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:08:20 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:08:39 ces200_ [i=ces200@unaffiliated/ces200] has joined #lisp 19:08:55 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host69.190-138-169.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:10:48 Fare: url? 19:11:26 at least I can reliable trigger the failure mode now 19:12:03 reliably... 19:15:16 jao [n=user@84.Red-83-33-77.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:18 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host186.190-137-177.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:17:36 slyrus, run-program is braindead in trying to use SIGCHLD. It should be using wait synchronously 19:18:20 (and for asynchronous event loop integration, use signalfd's or their emulation) 19:19:38 Tordek [n=tordek@host22.190-227-33.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:20:29 *if* you want to use SIGCHLD, you must (1) block the signal any time you're going to change the shared datastructures, (2) be single threaded and/or have a complex protocol between threads so you may fully block the signal 19:20:53 synchronous waiting is simpler and more efficient. 19:20:55 Goofy slime micro-bug report --- Bj\"{o}rn Nordb\"{o}'s name is not properly texified in contributors... 19:21:05 Gives sort error... 19:21:15 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:22:48 argh. Why is SSE so dumb? 19:24:03 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host69.190-138-169.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:24:14 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:24:19 Fare: I don't suppose calling run-program with :wait t helps matters does it? 19:24:35 (actually, in my case I know it doesn't, it just changes the failure mode) 19:25:33 it won't help -- run-program still uses the sigchld handler 19:26:10 slyrus, you have processes that return faster than sbcl can setup the datastructure? 19:26:18 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host183.190-137-243.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:26:42 (and/or sbcl is not scheduled while the process runs, or the process runs on a different core) 19:26:42 dunno. i'm calling out to perl. they're not long-lived proceses. 19:27:24 slyrus, if you fix run-program, can you send/commit your patch upstream? 19:27:49 that's probably above my pay grade these days 19:27:56 uh? 19:28:25 my unix process/signal knowledge is rapidly atrophying 19:29:19 *ironChicken* is finding lisp quite difficult :-( 19:29:21 http://ironchicken.livejournal.com/12275.html 19:29:23 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:30:52 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:31:18 Tordek__ [n=tordek@host21.190-138-148.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:31:44 ironChicken: honestly, I never had the desire to know line numbers of lisp code 19:31:53 scx [n=superwom@unaffiliated/scx] has joined #lisp 19:32:09 but how do you know where to look for the error? 19:32:33 ironChicken: 'v' on a frame pops up the source code at the right position 19:32:41 ironChicken: you ask slime to point you to the right place. 19:32:52 ah 19:32:57 *ironChicken* should learn more slime 19:33:31 tcr: re reading disassembly, would associating source locations to addresses be enough for you to hack something up? 19:35:33 -!- Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:35:48 ok. that doesn't work for compile-time errors? 19:35:50 ironChicken: "vectors/lists and hashes/a-lists" aren't solutions to the _same_ problem 19:36:20 Tordek___ [n=tordek@host240.190-138-146.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:36:38 ironChicken: M-n/M-p moves the cursor to the location of the error. 19:38:15 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 19:38:16 <_3b> ironChicken: most of your 'syntactic grubbiness' is optional, use (function foo) instead of #'foo, build lists by hand instead of ` + , + ,@ etc 19:38:18 hmm. it seems to pop up a list of Locals 19:38:19 -!- scx [n=superwom@unaffiliated/scx] has left #lisp 19:38:58 -!- Tordek__ [n=tordek@host21.190-138-148.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:40:15 _3b: but is not optional if you want to show your code to experienced lisper 19:40:29 Fare: anyway, I like with-output-stream. have you got more interesting utilities ? 19:40:40 ironChicken: have you just compiled the code and gotten warnings, or are you running some code which signalled an error, or does your code error out at compile time? 19:40:59 fe[nl]ix, plenty of them! 19:41:42 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279441402.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 19:42:09 ironChicken, you can come to irc more often and we may help 19:42:19 it's hard to learn lisp alone. 19:42:31 and use the pastebot 19:42:58 actually, i am a new colleague of Krystof's so i'm not entirely alone 19:42:58 mulander [n=user@nat-4.interq.pl] has joined #lisp 19:43:00 fe[nl]ix, I'd like to push with-output-stream to alexandria. Maybe renamed with-output 19:43:04 and, as you say, i have #lisp 19:43:12 and peter seibel 19:43:18 ironChicken, in any case, be more proactive in asking for help 19:43:31 thanks. i will 19:43:48 don't hesitate about asking stupid questions -- I ask a lot of them, and I don't have the excuse of being a beginner anymore. 19:43:55 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host22.190-227-33.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:45:02 *_3b* wonders how much of lisp's perceived 'library problem' is due to lack of unsophisticated users 19:45:12 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host183.190-137-243.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:46:13 _3b: Part of them is due to a phenomenon that I think Olin Shivers pointed out --- there are a lot of half-baked libraries mixed with some very good ones. 19:46:19 _3b: that's a good point actually. if you're not used to lisp in general, then you won't necessarily know what to expect a third party library to feel like 19:46:22 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:35 remember: there's no such thing as a stupid question (but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots). 19:46:52 rpg: Olin pointed it out? 19:47:23 Actually, "managing expectations badly" is a problem even if the code is perfect. 19:47:34 Fare: Let me see if I can dig up the reference. IIRC, it's amusing and pungent. 19:48:19 Fare: in the introduction for his regular expression library. 19:48:28 <_3b> too high percentage of people for whom just writing another half baked lib is easier than figuring out a half documented one, and not enough people asking basic questions to motivate better docs, or even just adding weight to a particular choice as 'the lib to use for X' 19:48:30 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:49:35 Too often, it's easier to write code than reverse-engineer it. Where easy is measured in effort or time spent. 19:49:59 brianj_otter: or, at least, it feels like you're doing something useful. 19:50:12 brianj_otter: this is usually quite near-sighted 19:50:19 -!- Raynes [i=kvirc@ACA224B1.ipt.aol.com] has left #lisp 19:50:42 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:50:43 <_3b> not just difficulty of reverse engineering, but of evaluating without reverse engineering first :) 19:50:43 Perhaps, perhaps not. It's a gamble. And, as was pointed out, a LOT of the libs are half-baked and not ready. 19:50:47 -!- pragma_ is now known as anonymous3 19:51:09 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:16 brianj_otter: they are never going to get ready with that attitude, unfortunately 19:51:32 The ones who accept feedback can. 19:51:38 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:52:02 Alas, a lot of them are dead-zones. Pour in anything (questions, feedback, etc.) and get nothing back. 19:52:24 As a community, it's not clear that we have enough infrastructure for finding the libraries or blessing those that really work well. 19:52:30 brianj_otter: fork. 19:52:46 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:22 many things are not written for others to use, just for the author 19:53:24 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:53:34 pkhuong: while I'm forking and such I'm not shipping to customers. 19:53:41 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:55 brianj_otter: but when you're rewriting from scratch you are. 19:54:01 stassats': Right, and many things written for one use have "bits" that are usable, but to make general-purpose is quite a bit harder. 19:54:05 -!- anonymous3 is now known as pragma_ 19:54:22 pkhuong: no, when I'm writing for customers I'm hunting libs that work in whatever language. 19:54:30 That's why I end up using lisp to generate Java a lot. 19:54:37 I get the lisp benefits and the Java libs. 19:54:49 writing software that fits your own immediate needs is the only sane thing to do. writing pretty libraries for others is charity work. 19:55:28 <_3b> hefner: depends on what you think the odds are of other people contributing code you can use 19:55:30 We're moving to more lisp directly, but we're hitting ghastly issues with multi-platform threading and deployment. 19:55:32 blitz_ [n=julian@pD95D5B7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:43 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:56:35 ironChicken was right about Python and Java (even Ruby) having some extremely well-documented and easily acquired/used library sets. 19:56:38 _3b: sure, if you want to speculate at the long term utility, instead of working for the warm fuzzy feeling of writing libraries 19:58:08 fare: to minimize the incompatibility of the changes, how would you feel about using spawn/wait when :wait is t? 19:58:28 MORE CHARITY 19:59:22 phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 20:01:36 _3b: Do you happen to know if there is anything in the swf binary that identifies a particular method as implementing an interface? 20:02:14 slash__ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BAED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:57 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0A1F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:03:34 brianj_otter: don't the proprietary lisps have fairly good support for deployment and threading on multiple platforms? 20:03:42 (Allegro, at least) 20:03:47 They do indeed. 20:04:02 I had an allegro license for a few years, in fact. 20:04:09 sykopomp: for ACL, it depends on the sort of threading you need. 20:04:14 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-232-22.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:04:18 Granted, we had to file some bug reports ... 20:04:41 it's too bad sbcl doesn't have win32 threading yet. 20:04:50 <_3b> ahaas: don't think so, at least not directly... possibly could follow the classes/traits back to find the interface 20:04:58 sykopomp: aye. 20:05:15 sykopomp: the good news is that ACL has an excellent threading system on multiple platforms. The bad news is that it doesn't use native threads on linux --- it emulates them in lisp. 20:05:35 _3b: I don't think so, either. The problem (for me) is that a class can implement an interface which isn't defined in the swf, so I can't track down the relevent methods. 20:05:45 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host14-155-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 20:05:45 rpg: that's a bit funny :) 20:07:07 -!- bit` [n=bit@c-67-171-211-187.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:08:31 Thas1 [n=weechat@97-113-32-146.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:42 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:08:55 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:09:14 -!- Thas [n=weechat@97-113-43-185.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:09:19 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:09:22 -!- Thas1 is now known as Thas 20:09:52 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.157.185] has quit ["The universe is a big place. Perhaps even the biggest."] 20:09:57 <_3b> ahaas: do you need to worry about more than just what is defined by the player? 20:10:25 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:10:36 sykopomp: Its proprietary Emacs-lisp interface does a good job of debugging multi-threaded programs. 20:10:41 sykopomp: why funny? 20:10:45 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:08 drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:11:08 brianj_otter: Are you using multithreaded SBCL now? 20:11:30 rpg: Allegro has nice threading support on windows and funky support on linux, but SBCL has (pretty nice) support for threading on linux and OSX, but crappy (if you patch it) threading support on win32 20:11:40 _3b: I'm writing an obfuscator and I'm trying to reason about which strings are safe to rename. 20:12:14 sykopomp: I think crappy is overstating the case for win32 threads. 20:13:06 slyrus: possibly, yes. I'm not too familiar with the exact current status. 20:13:23 -!- ksergio [n=sgarcia@mail.nuecho.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:13:31 sykopomp: afaict, none. 20:13:40 _3b: The only bit that's left is figuring out which methods are implementing an interface, but I don't think there's enough info in the swf alone to be exact. 20:13:44 How does one debug a multithreaded SBCL program (specifically in SLIME)? 20:15:02 <_3b> ahaas: yeah, that sounds difficult to figure out 20:15:06 konr [i=konrad@c953dc7c.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 20:15:34 netaust1n [n=austinsm@68.247.64.67] has joined #lisp 20:16:03 _3b: I think the only safe plan is to assume that if a class implements an interface outside the swf, then we shouldn't touch any of it's methods. 20:16:34 Guys, I borrowed "Norvig's Artificial Intelligence Programming (case studies in CL)", and I'm going on vacations to the beach where no internet is available, so all software must be downloaded before leaving. Do I need something else (ie libraries) aside from SBCL? 20:16:47 If one uses the ACL ELI, it will throw up a new emacs buffer for when you get into the debugger in a thread... 20:16:52 *to read and implement the proposed code 20:16:54 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:17 konr: suggest you download norvig's code to avoid unnecessary typing drudgery. 20:17:31 konr: and assume you have emacs + slime. 20:17:32 rpg: I could be wrong, but I think it works the same way in slime with sbcl. 20:17:51 hefner: Ah. I couldn't tell --- I was looking at the slime manual, and it didn't go into that. 20:18:04 rpg: the debugger frame is in the right thread. 20:18:12 rpg, thanks! Is vi so bad to use with lisp? 20:18:12 although it might not necessarily tell you which thread you're debugging :) 20:18:43 konr, apparently there's some effort being made to improve vi's usability 20:18:50 hefner, pkhuong: That's great. Something I'd really been worrying about (so far I still develop in ACL, but am delivering in both ACL and SBCL). 20:19:41 konr: If you are going to work with Lisp, you need to get used to interactively working with your code --- compiling things one chunk at a time, etc. There's good support for this in emacs. Not so much for vi. 20:19:58 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-24-16-246-158.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:20:06 konr: The unwritten lore about working with CL is heavily emacs-based. 20:21:04 actually, there is a slime-alike for vi, i am told 20:22:26 konr: Lispforum had a topic about limp for vim. Maybe You will find what You need there. 20:22:30 evening all 20:23:57 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@68.247.64.67] has quit [] 20:24:21 drdo``` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:24:44 jrockway: iirc correctly, it's about a half-a-slime-alike. still, it's a start. 20:24:53 mulander: thanks! I'll take a look! 20:25:20 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:26:18 -!- slash__ [n=Unknown@p4FF0BAED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:28 I'm wondering what is the recommended setup right now for web development on a win32 platform (mostly what implementation, sbcl and clisp are ruled out due to poor threading support) 20:27:03 <_3b> sbcl/linux running in colinux or virtualbox? :) 20:27:28 _3b: or a remote swank connection 20:27:35 _3b: but I was thinking about a more native solution 20:27:45 <_3b> yeah, was just typing the remote option 20:28:27 <_3b> are you planning to deploy on windows too? 20:28:32 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:28:37 nope, only to devel 20:28:54 and at the moment it's mostly for fun/recreation so not sure if it's going to be deployed at all 20:29:24 treat it more like a commitment to spend more time coding lisp then planning the next big revolution ;) 20:30:40 I'm currently thinking about using allegro/lispworks for this purpose or going with Your virtualbox recommendation 20:31:26 <_3b> yeah, probably the best options currently 20:31:49 are there any CL web servers that don't need threads? 20:32:00 konr: My personal belief is that you're so far out of the community using lisp with vi, that you should avoid it if at all possible. 20:32:04 i don't think it is an essential thing for web development; no other language I have used encourages using threads 20:32:12 ok, except tomcat, which we'll pretend i have never used 20:32:20 jrockway: the devel branch of hunchentoot, IIRC 20:32:38 jrockway: it's hard to sit inside Your lisp image modyfing code and have a serve pages at the same time 20:33:23 yes, that's true 20:33:33 is it? 20:33:39 i like the way hunchentoot and swank sit in the background; it works very well 20:34:00 hefner: it can be done with an event-based architecture too 20:34:07 i wrote a swank-alike for Perl that uses POE 20:34:21 everything runs in one thread, blocking for IO returns control to the event loop 20:34:38 it generally works, except when you type while(1){ ... } in the REPL 20:35:27 Tordek [n=tordek@host219.190-137-247.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:36:03 -!- Tordek___ [n=tordek@host240.190-138-146.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:36:40 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:18 -!- drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:41:10 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@pD95D5B7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:42:49 rcy [n=rcy@S01060013102d91ee.ok.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:50 Jasko [n=tjasko@pool-71-250-192-43.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:55 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:00 sykopomp sbcl thread support in osx is not that good 20:47:15 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@182-135.106-92.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:47:18 ie i wouldnt run anything that i expect to stay up on this setup 20:48:06 xristos: oh well :( 20:48:33 i wrote a multithreaded scraper using drakma 20:48:45 and it only worked correctly on sbcl/linux 20:49:03 sbcl/osx and ccl/osx had problems 20:49:42 how do i communicate to the compiler that a function exists at compile time? 20:49:52 i need to write my own defun 20:50:29 weirdo: (declaim (ftype function foo)) 20:51:08 thank you 20:54:32 pkhuong: (re: disassemble output): Yes, I think so. 20:54:51 Great save-image is disabled in the personal edition of lispworks and from what I see there is no other way to create an image that can be used with slime :( 20:57:12 mulander: on LInux? 20:57:28 lispm: unfortunetly win32 is the problem in my case 20:58:24 jsnell: Trying to create a hash-fun specific hash-table for the package mapping is being a headache for me. And I'd still more drawn to the gethash-from-hash-value idea. You're reluctant to that, though? 20:59:32 mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:32 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:01:46 mulander: when you save an image, then it would work? 21:01:48 jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 21:02:22 lispm: the free version of lispworks has save-image disabled. 21:02:26 *jbjohns* is back 21:02:52 mulander: okay, but if it would save an image, how does that help? 21:03:24 lispm: you can turn lispworks's IDE off in the image 21:03:26 because You can disable the automatic ide startup 21:04:01 can't you invoke LispWorks from the command line and disable the IDE with a command line switch? 21:05:00 i didn't find such switch in the documentation 21:05:07 same here 21:05:43 LD_PRELOAD fake Motif. 21:06:04 hmm, how does the commercial version deal with it? Wouldn't it make sense to be able to start Lisp without IDE? 21:06:11 Or otherwise exclude Motif from library path search. 21:06:19 WINDOWS! 21:06:30 no motif on Windows 21:06:31 X? 21:06:41 Ah. 21:06:41 Windows native GUI 21:06:43 lispm: commercial version deals with it by saving custom image 21:06:59 so the documentation says 21:07:02 lispm: and the freeware version is not supposed to 'deploy' applications 21:07:15 so probably that was a design decision 21:08:33 -!- ice_four [n=ice_four@host86-131-244-48.range86-131.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 21:09:14 Is there a general solution to the "I am going to make and remake objects of this type over and over" problem that sidesteps the GC? E.g., if I *know* an object (or struct) is going to be dead after we exit a stack frame? 21:10:22 rpg: I tried to beat SBCL's GC in that once or twice and failed (at least considering the effort spent) 21:10:40 rpg: dynamic-extent or uwp and an object pool 21:11:03 afk 21:11:38 mulander: 'Use of LispWorks Personal Edition with SLIME is not supported.' 21:11:59 lispm: I see also no way to get rid of the IDE at start time 21:12:06 mulander, I mean 21:12:13 lispm: thanks for researching the info 21:12:31 mulander: why would you want to use LispWorks with SLIME? 21:12:44 lispm: I need a lisp implementation with threads on win32 21:12:52 ecl? 21:12:59 hmm didn't try that one :) 21:13:21 lispm: thanks! I'll give it a try :D 21:13:39 pkhuong: thank you very much. 21:13:52 mulander, you should write a mail to LispWorks, they may be interested to hear your request 21:14:35 pkhuong: I'd like a proof-of-concept type of thing (re disassambly), so my bug report can move on from incomplete 21:14:48 mulander: I see on the Mac, that the personal edition also starts the IDE, but the commercial version comes with both an IDE and a non-ide executable 21:15:16 lispm: the commercial version for windows has save-image so it's not a problem 21:15:47 -!- avdi [n=avdi@c-71-58-195-219.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:31 mulander, I think a difference is that the CLI version of LispWorks on Unix has the Motif stuff loaded. There one has to say lw -env to get to the motif environment 21:18:44 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E43E5D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 21:21:10 lispm: if ecl provides threads on win32 and works with slime then I don't need anything else. 21:21:13 pkhuong: do I understand correctly from the manual that I should expect dynamic-extent to optimize for a specific class of defstructs, but not for general defstructs or class instances? 21:21:20 lispm: again thanks for pointing it out. 21:21:52 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E43E5D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:05 rpg: dx will work on structures for x86/x86-64, and on vectors (of small constant size) on most platforms. 21:22:24 mulander: I don't know how robust it is, but it has been mentioned that it supports threads under Windows 21:22:32 pkhuong: given the structure constructor is declared as inline... 21:22:35 right? 21:22:46 lispm: doesn't have to be robust. I just want to experiment a little bit with local development :) 21:22:49 mulander: The other one is Corman Lisp, but I don't know if that works with SLIME 21:22:56 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:23:15 mulander: there is also a port of Clozure Common Lisp to Windows in the works 21:23:56 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:24:03 lispm: probably it is not ready for public consumption, but could be very interesting sometime in the next year 21:24:17 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.48.37] has joined #lisp 21:24:26 mulander: it should also do multiple threads, etc 21:24:26 lispm: I will keep an eye on it :) 21:24:33 rpg: right. 21:24:41 (talking to myself, too late, I guess) 21:25:13 lispm: I'm still listening and taking notes ;) 21:25:41 tcr: each VOP has access to the corresponding IR1 node, which has a source location. I just don't know how to expose that information. 21:25:41 pkhuong: thanks for clearing this up. I'm trying to get rid of some nasty code that avoids reallocating an iterator structure in a (with-iterator...) macro. Currently we reuse elements from a pool, but the code is not at all elegant. 21:28:00 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:33 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:33 -!- mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:29:58 pkhuong: How does disassemble work? 21:30:20 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:31:08 tcr: it's a complex piece of code. Mostly it just walks the bytes in memory. I don't know how to make it use that information either. 21:33:16 You could report your intermediate thoughts about. I'm sure nikodemus will chime in. 21:34:35 jrockway, my fcgi library can be run single-threaded, though obviously then there's no REPL functionality 21:34:52 though that's not a web server per se 21:35:26 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:35:27 mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:37 blitz_ [n=julian@pD95D5B7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:35:59 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-24-88.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 21:36:18 -!- konr [i=konrad@c953dc7c.virtua.com.br] has left #lisp 21:37:42 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:59 gnman [i=92731f8f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4e66d81b65e3ccb5] has joined #lisp 21:39:40 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:42:25 mulander: btw, if you can't find an acceptable CL implementation for Windows, you can always try a non-CL lisp 21:42:32 there are good Schemes that probably run under Windows OK 21:42:34 and there is Clojure 21:42:59 or emacs lisp, for that matter :) 21:43:11 that works very well on windows :) 21:43:41 so i had this stupid idea, write an interactive C compiler in lisp 21:44:04 why would you want to write C? ;) 21:44:14 i don't. that's why it's stupid :) 21:44:31 some ideas are dumb until you execute them. others are still dumb after you execute them. 21:44:32 less stupid codegen, and I beat gcc! 21:44:40 when putting stuff in .so, it could be dlunloaded and loaded anew 21:45:03 pkhuong: what are you hacking on? 21:45:10 weirdo: There's also tiny cc 21:45:25 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-187-226.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:45:40 also, a separate heap could be used to avoid memory leaks 21:45:51 bounds checking and pointer checking can be added 21:46:02 that would be the first feature I'd add to C, sane memory management 21:46:10 that would eliminate about 85% of bugs in C programs 21:46:20 then sane non-local exits would fix the other 15% :) 21:46:21 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-187-226.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:36 but then you don't have C anymore 21:46:54 it makes me sad that people write applications in such a low-level language 21:46:59 finally, functions can be called portably with dlsym/cffi 21:47:00 :))) 21:47:44 hefner: a native x86-64 compiler for a computation-oriented language. The test is a bit artificial: take an unrolled recursive matrix mult (4x4 matrices, iirc) => x86-64. Since it reorders operations aggressively, beating the straightforward translation in C isn't too surprising, but it also gets the same performance as the normal iterative triple loop at -O3 -funroll-loops (with a constant size too). 21:48:07 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a61-130.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:48:23 jrockway: now there's a new take on it. no, wait... 21:48:39 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a16-185.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:48:43 -!- mattrepl_ [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:49:52 i am hoping that if I whine about C enough, someone will rewrite UNIX for me 21:49:54 and firefox also 21:50:02 :) 21:50:39 nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-222-144-34.man.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:54 *nyef* feels... celebratory. 21:51:05 Power came back about half an hour ago. 21:51:58 <_3b> power is good 21:52:14 Power is good. Power means central heating. 21:52:49 <_3b> yeah, how long was it out, 10 days or so? 21:52:56 that'd be a pretty powerful whinge, jrockway ! 21:53:39 yeah, and so far it has been ineffective 21:54:05 very sad. 21:54:15 Thirteen days, just about. 21:54:20 295 hours, almost exactly. 21:56:10 no fun 21:56:15 did you have water at least? 21:56:20 jrockway, did i mention run-time type checking? :))) 21:56:22 -!- gnman [i=92731f8f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4e66d81b65e3ccb5] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:56:49 ... No. And we still don't have water, as some of the taps froze, as did the waste water system. 21:56:57 yuck 21:57:02 that's no fun 21:57:14 i guess freezing food isnt' a problem, anyway ;) 21:57:41 Think again. It's -raining- today. 21:57:57 well, you've got all the luck, don't you? 21:58:09 Yes, I do. 21:58:22 got a white gas stove? 21:58:44 Have a propane camping stove. 21:58:48 close enough 21:58:51 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:58:54 And a propane space heater... 21:58:59 well, that's something anyway 21:59:12 It's amazing how civilized things can be without any resources. 21:59:17 Anyway, mostly over now. 21:59:23 and if you can't freeze food outside, at least you can't be frozen, so there is that 21:59:30 yeah, sounds like you're mostly sorted 21:59:42 hopefully the municipal lines aren't too messed up 21:59:45 (water, i mean) 21:59:54 Yeah, we're on a well here. 22:00:26 At least I got some stuff done. 22:00:46 ah, right. 22:01:23 vasa [n=vasa@mm-172-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 22:02:53 Heh. I start SBCL. I (require :sb-posix). After that, (apropos-list "ptrace") => NIL. 22:03:05 Guess I get to break new ground. 22:03:47 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:03:54 so i can edit a cliki page to add a reference to my library without procuring wrath? 22:04:14 I'd have thought you more likely to incur than procure wrath. 22:04:40 But if you screw things up you will only incur small wrath for a first offence. 22:04:51 okay. good enough for me :) 22:04:59 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-68-237.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:05:07 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:05:24 the wrath market hasn't collapsed along with housing/finance/auto, so if you really must procure it, you may find it dear 22:06:01 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AD2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:22 i am speechless. someone else added my library to cliki 22:06:31 lol 22:06:56 tcr: I don't see how a gethash-from-hash-value would work reliably if you don't also pass in the value, in the even of hash collisions 22:07:12 weirdo: what library is that ? 22:08:22 ice_four [n=ice_four@host86-131-244-48.range86-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:33 jsnell: It'd work if the hash values were guaranteed unique, though, wouldn't it? 22:09:05 tcr, pkhuong: I missed the start of the discussion, but it looked like you were talking of mapping disassembly back to the original code? cmucl disassembler has support for that. or if it's for non-disassembling purposes, mapping a pc to a source location isn't too hard either 22:09:37 jsnell: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/310009 22:10:07 nyef: even simpler, it'd work for an empty hash table. both those solutions are missing the point, though... 22:10:41 fe[nl]ix, cl-fcgi 22:11:01 gnrgh, stupid + in the url 22:11:08 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.85.144] has joined #lisp 22:12:48 On the subject of https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/310174 I have http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/random-sbcl-patches/reunite-sub-access-and-set-debug-var-slot.diff to present. 22:13:31 It built and passed the test suite on amd64, and is hopefully completely behavior-preserving... even when the behavior is stupid and wrong. 22:13:34 tcr: http://jsnell.iki.fi/tmp/profile-annotate-source.lisp has code for mapping from pcs to form numbers 22:20:32 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:20:55 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 22:23:11 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:02 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:32:25 jsnell: When will debug blocks be created by the compiler? 22:39:49 -!- salex [n=user@ardbeg.math.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:40:36 drewc: around? 22:40:42 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.194.140] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:40:53 elurin [n=user@85.99.194.140] has joined #lisp 22:42:24 Does a (!begin-collecting-cold-init-forms) end in a (!defun-from-collected-cold-init-forms !package-cold-init) ? 22:42:37 (modulo the package-cold-init bit) 22:43:34 Yuuhi` [n=user@p5483F650.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:37 tcr: Sounds about right. The function thus defined is then called from !cold-init itself at some point. 22:45:02 -!- TDT [n=TDT@143.108.177.207.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:45:44 *tcr* wishes for (eval-when (:cold-init)) 22:46:59 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:27 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DACA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:48:19 tcr: I occasionally wish that genesis could fix things up sufficiently that we didn't need such things. 22:52:52 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.85.144] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:53:57 -!- decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.48.37] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:55:52 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@pD95D5B7F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:56:23 crod [n=cmell@cb8a16-057.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:57:43 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 22:58:10 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a16-185.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:39 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.85.144] has joined #lisp 22:58:50 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:01:02 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FF0AD2E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:03:03 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 23:03:19 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:04:30 -!- tcr [n=tcr@p4FD3DB28.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:20 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:06:46 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B1ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:09:14 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:09:48 -!- ironChicken [n=richard@79-75-104-125.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has left #lisp 23:10:30 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-204-183-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit ["leaving"] 23:11:05 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 23:11:13 -!- futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-79-193.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:11:20 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-204-183-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 23:11:35 futuresoon [n=futureso@cpe-68-175-79-193.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:15 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:15:44 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 23:17:35 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:17:44 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.214.112] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:19:05 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-24-88.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:19:48 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:20:02 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:35 tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@unaffiliated/tc-rucho] has joined #lisp 23:23:56 tcr [n=tcr@p4FD3DB28.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:51 Heooo [n=Heooo@e212-246-70-123.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 23:28:41 -!- luis [n=luis@r42.eu] has quit ["leaving"] 23:28:46 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:29:06 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:54 beach [n=user@203.210.248.212] has joined #lisp 23:31:00 Good morning. 23:31:28 tcr: depending on sb-c::compute-debug-fun optimization quality 23:31:51 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:31:54 none/partial/full for 0/1/2 23:32:30 that symbol isn't completed for me 23:32:55 uhm now it is 23:33:51 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:33:57 beach: Life's a beach. 23:34:16 beach: Evening. 23:34:59 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.85.144] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:36:22 luis [n=user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 23:37:28 r2q2: and I have a nice view of one from the hotel room window. 23:38:28 Quadresce` [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:40 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:41:05 HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:41:52 is it expected of code not to exceed 80 columns? 23:42:48 some people like that convention, yeah 23:43:03 *_3b* prefers <= 80 column 23:43:12 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-67-166-190-245.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:45:44 I prefer <= 78. 23:45:52 Up to 80 in extreme cases. 23:47:01 I have two m-v-binds nested, one for one function and one for another. 23:47:15 why 78? quoting on usenet? 23:47:16 Is there a way to put them in one m-v-bind form? 23:47:29 fooquux, metabind 23:47:32 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177154044.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:47:46 metabind is a system or package somewhere? 23:47:50 oh it's called 'bind' 23:47:52 http://www.cliki.net/bind 23:47:55 tnx 23:48:00 but i never used it :) 23:49:18 froog [n=user@81-234-149-249-no94.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 23:49:42 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.194.140] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:50:15 fooquux: (let (a b c d) (multiple-value-setq (a b) (form1 ...)) (multiple-value-setq (b c) (form2 ...)) ...) 23:50:28 -!- costal [n=draven@shm67-2-82-227-190-152.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:50:39 -!- HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:51:00 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 23:51:25 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:52:08 <_3b> or (setf (values a b) (form1) (values b c) (form2 ...)) instead of m-v-setq 23:52:43 -!- luis [n=user@r42.eu] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:53:54 luis [n=user@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 23:54:46 HET3 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:57:02 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a69-071.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:57:58 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a16-057.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:59:19 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-172-93-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"]