00:00:33 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless68.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:00:44 if the list might be larger than the max number of allowed arguments, then it's better to (reduce #'+ '(1 2 3 ...)) 00:01:50 hm, thanks, Fare. I'll bear that in mind 00:05:30 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:07:37 clhs , 00:07:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dg.htm 00:10:27 -!- deshko [n=deshko@163.238.35.169] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:11:23 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A27AA9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 00:11:38 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:15:02 too bad there's no SQL SELECT macro resembling pattern-matching on trees 00:15:14 flatness of joins always annoyedm e 00:15:59 fe[nl]ix: Is it confusing? 00:17:34 it's puzzling. I understand the words(at least I think so), but I can't understand the meaning of the sentence 00:17:59 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:18:01 -!- ben_m [n=Ben@85-127-15-193.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["boring"] 00:18:13 Good night! 00:18:25 -!- mrSpec [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has quit ["c Ya!"] 00:18:44 -!- jrockway is now known as GumbyGumby 00:18:50 fe[nl]ix: It's about the commonalities and differences between (lambda ...) and #'(lambda ...) 00:18:59 -!- GumbyGumby is now known as jrockway 00:19:41 Hrm... It seems to me that comma is invalid outside of backquote, and it is invalid within backquote if it is also within any non-list construct other than #( and #1A. 00:20:00 tcr: I was referring to "Contra serpendem lapsum memoriae" :D 00:21:20 -!- Raynes [i=kvirc@AC83088F.ipt.aol.com] has left #lisp 00:23:08 fe[nl]ix: Against creeping loss of memory 00:24:27 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:24:29 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-005-123.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:27:34 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-050-221.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:15 -!- amos_ [n=amos@cpc5-bolt9-0-0-cust762.manc.cable.ntl.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:33:50 clhs array 00:33:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_array.htm 00:35:27 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:51 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:36:07 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:40:13 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 00:41:05 tcr: those differences are the reason why you can't "just" alias a lambda unicode (or Genera) character to behave as a shorthand for LAMBDA -- it only works in the evaluated case. 00:42:16 Fare: Genera probably got lambda macros which you can use for this 00:43:52 You might be able to get away with it as a non-terminating macro-character, though. 00:44:46 heh clever 00:44:59 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:45:18 unfortunately not portably 00:45:44 tcr: I dunno about their Zeta-Lisp dialect, but in their ANSI-CL dialect, you can't ((\lambda (x) (+ x x)) 2) 00:45:54 True, on the strength of lambda not being part of the standard character set. 00:46:17 nyef: interesting suggestion 00:46:19 nyef: No, there's no token-delimeterp provided by the standard. 00:47:20 patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:28 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:47:30 L being \lambda, then (Lfoo) should be (Lfoo), but (L(x y) ...) should be (lambda (x y) ...) 00:49:12 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 00:50:26 tcr: re your blog post: there is no place where you are obligated to use #' before lambda? 00:50:48 -!- Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 00:56:02 stassats: I can't think of any. 00:56:44 I think an earlier version of the SWITCH macro in alexandria required this 00:56:56 Probably not in the standard, but if someone were doing something crazy with destructuring... 00:58:14 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a9b-055.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:42 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a54-107.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:01:27 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:36 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:02:12 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 01:08:11 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:08:18 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-78e133397624e4c6] has joined #lisp 01:16:09 tcr: shame you didn't take that opportunity to make an impassioned plea for people to stop writing #'(lambda () ..) 01:18:25 I'm a passionated proponent of #'(lambda (...)), you know.. 01:18:46 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 01:18:59 you didn't manage to talk yourself out of it even after thoroughly examining how pointless it is? 01:19:12 I like it, damn it! 01:19:30 As good a reason as any, I guess. 01:20:48 Regarding aliasing  to LAMBDA, it would of course work if  were a nonterminating macro character that read as CL:LAMBDA 01:20:50 hefner: That restart-case etc only take (lambda ...) is a bug, in my opinion. 01:21:10 I'll talk about that in a follow up. 01:21:34 hefner, so their code won't run on Genera? 01:21:49 (But the pain I had to go through today to get the markup somewhat acceptable actually made me sick.) 01:22:00 anyway, good night! 01:22:02 chandler: The counterargument for that was symbols -beginning- with a lambda. 01:22:09 chandler: sure... who's to post working code for that? 01:22:10 It's even possible to do a very good job of this macro character, so that e.g. (2 foo) would read correctly. 01:22:15 Fare: Let me hack it up a minute. 01:22:30 (A good test of my Emacs unicode setup, too!) 01:22:33 nyef, it's a relatively small loss. 01:22:34 Fare: I used to write #'(lambda () ), and compatibility with Genera was my only reason. I've given up on it. 01:23:03 Fare: Yeah, but that was the counterargument when I said "non-terminating macro-character". 01:23:16 Why wouldn't one just have  read as a symbol constituent, and define (DEFMACO ( &REST JUNK) `(LAMBDA ,@JUNK))? 01:23:19 chandler: After (set-syntax-from-char #\^ #\Space) (L^ ...) should read as (lambda (...)) 01:23:26 Riastradh: (( (x) x) 2) 01:23:33 ...oh. 01:23:35 nyef, what's the problem with it being non-terminating? 01:23:38 ...right, we're in #lisp. 01:24:11 i.e. read the symbol, if it's just \lambda, substitute CL:LAMBDA 01:24:18 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:24:21 (defmaco? deftaco?) 01:24:21 Fare: It was the counterargument to using a macro character, but it is only the counterargument to the most obvious form of that macro. 01:24:32 DEFMACHO 01:24:47 hehe 01:25:53 hum. Regarding cl-launch and clbuild, should I (1) duplicate implementations from sbcl, clisp... to clbuild_sbcl, clbuild_clisp, etc. or (2) add a new flag --clbuild ? 01:26:04 I lean towards (2). 01:27:04 Heh. I just compiled a file named .lisp, and I'm surprised that it worked. 01:27:38 congratulations 01:36:40 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:40:55 ths__ [n=ths@X53d9.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:42:15 -!- ths [n=ths@X64dc.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:42:27 -!- lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:42:45 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:26 crod [n=cmell@cb8a54-107.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:46:36 lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 01:48:29 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a54-107.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:31 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 01:53:30 -!- lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:54:19 Riastrad1 [n=rias@pool-141-154-217-174.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:03 lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 01:55:42 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a54-107.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:58:16 Altair88 [i=4f24987a@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3c3b2ac210986b0e] has joined #lisp 01:58:27 prip: puppa 01:58:30 -!- Altair88 [i=4f24987a@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3c3b2ac210986b0e] has left #lisp 01:59:11 ? 01:59:22 Nemo1985 [n=Nemo@host129-195-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 02:00:27 nyef_ [n=nyef@pool-64-223-178-107.man.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:56 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-52-91.man.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 02:06:41 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-245-231.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 02:08:12 -!- lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:08:44 crod [n=cmell@cb8a61-060.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:10:43 -!- jlongster [n=user@75.148.111.133] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:12:38 lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 02:14:54 a conspiracy theorist could go mad with all the strange things that occur on IRC 02:15:34 beach [n=user@203.210.248.212] has joined #lisp 02:15:42 Good morning. 02:15:42 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has quit [] 02:17:15 chandler pasted "-reader" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72550 02:17:27 OK. That's as sane as I can make it in a few minutes of hacking. 02:18:14 Good evening beach. 02:18:18 netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has joined #lisp 02:21:00 Hm. I think the printer function needs more work. Looks like a project for tomorrow. 02:21:03 So the complication is that you want it to be an ordinary letter unless used in isolation? 02:22:59 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:23:02 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F7F4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:27:46 -!- appletizer [i=a@82-32-122-46.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:28:28 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B7373.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:05 know of any channel for drunks? 02:29:30 at least drunk-tolerant 02:29:46 that's not (member #perl #php) etc 02:31:03 -!- nyef_ [n=nyef@pool-64-223-178-107.man.east.verizon.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 02:33:34 rlpowell: ping 02:34:43 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:38:19 drunk programming? 02:38:26 ? 02:38:28 hello 02:38:29 sounds fun 02:38:30 ! 02:38:32 beach: go to sleep! 02:38:39 i could do some low-hanging fruit in my projects 02:38:48 fermented fruits? 02:38:48 it'd be challenging, but fun 02:38:54 ha! 02:39:30 maybe turn the very last remants of hardcoded stuff in the pattern matcher into dispatch 02:39:37 Fare: maybe beach only woke up extremely early. 02:39:54 and i didn't do the kleene star since i watched the raytracer screencasts 02:39:57 GOD THEY SUCK 02:40:28 it made me lulz when the guy was trying to realize type specifiers are unevaluated in defclass for 5 minutes 02:40:32 all 3 hours is like this 02:43:25 i just spilt tea all over my chair, carpet and sleeve. fortunately, the keyboard and all other electricity-powered components are unaffected. 02:44:48 S11001001 pasted "how to make a cons with 1 in the CAR and 2 in the CDR" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72551 02:45:09 please annotate with better methods 02:45:46 -!- Nemo1985 [n=Nemo@host129-195-dynamic.16-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 02:45:57 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:47:38 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 02:47:42 Fare annotated #72551 with "*constant* cons with 1 in CAR and 2 in CDR" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72551#1 02:47:45 Fare: why? 02:48:05 beach: are you in vacations in Asia? 02:48:27 Fare: yeah, at the moment. In a week or so, it'll be work. 02:48:36 S11001001 annotated #72551 with "series" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72551#2 02:48:40 beach, congrats 02:48:54 Fare: Nha Trang at the moment. 02:49:10 (let ((cons (make-list 1))) (rplaca cons 1) (rplacd cons 2)) 02:49:11 bug third cons should be list 02:49:18 whoa. I've never been to VN yet. 02:49:23 Are there lispers there? 02:49:36 Fare: There will be when I am through with them :) 02:49:39 I want to have a school/sweatshop of lispers in VN someday. 02:50:21 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a61-060.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:50:25 is there a name for brainjuice? there's no really sweat involved. 02:50:27 weirdo annotated #72551 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72551#3 02:50:29 or (list* 1 2) 02:50:35 stassats: nice 02:50:59 weirdo: don't you have to funcall that constantly? 02:51:22 where can I find interns to develop XCVB? 02:51:48 Fare, 02:51:48 Fare: weirdo has screwed sbcl with evaluated car 02:52:14 perhaps (loop for n from 1 to 2 if (oddp n) collect n else append n), except the cdr chaser I see in loop expansions of append clauses might get confused 02:52:24 did it get pasted? 02:52:27 the result of the form 02:52:29 because 02:52:37 erc is broken with overlays 02:52:56 beach, Toi xin chuc anh mot giang sinh vui ve! 02:52:58 even if not, you get the idea 02:53:05 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:53:11 Fare: cam on em 02:53:33 i know 02:53:34 wait 02:53:46 -!- _sledge_ [n=chris@CPE001c109fb260-CM001ac319195a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:54:02 _sledge_ [n=chris@CPE001c109fb260-CM001ac319195a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:54:06 beach: are you teaching at a university there? 02:54:17 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:49 beach: if you have contacts for finding VN lisp hackers to employ remotely, I'm interested. 02:55:25 Fare: Yes, at the university of Bordeaux :) We have a branch of our masters program in HCM. 02:55:34 Fare: I'll think about that. 02:55:57 nice 02:56:34 lenatis [n=lenatis@119.117.106.98] has joined #lisp 02:57:01 Time for a spa/massage. Talk to you later. 02:57:04 -!- beach [n=user@203.210.248.212] has left #lisp 02:57:10 OK, I think I know what to do with xcvb now. But it's a *whole lot*. 02:57:14 ttyl 02:57:53 Fare: what are you going to do with xcvb ? 03:01:03 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 03:01:28 *Fare* goes and releases cl-launch 2.12... now with (limited) clbuild support. 03:01:50 HEY 03:01:51 sbcvl 03:02:14 1800319906955265 03:02:14 0.0d0 03:02:21 stupid erc 03:02:24 got that round form? 03:02:30 fe[nl]ix: Around? 03:02:34 yes 03:02:43 no 03:02:45 i'm drunk 03:03:00 I updated cmucl so that it falls back the x87 core if the sse2 can't be found. 03:03:33 *Fare* hopelessly uploads the .deb to the debian mentors machine. 03:04:00 fe[nl]ix, trying to muscle it up enough that I can use it at work. 03:04:45 rtoym: thanks. I'll test it tomorrow 03:05:24 crod [n=cmell@cb8ac8-063.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:05:44 fe[nl]ix: Much appreciated. I tested it as best as I could, but I only have sse2 chips. 03:06:00 just try (sqrt (expt x 2)) in a loop and check the rounding 03:06:11 more like reduce than loop 03:06:25 holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:26 eaumontab [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 03:06:37 chandler: public domain? 03:10:02 weirdo: use (isqrt (expt x 2)) 03:10:13 rtoym: in what context? 03:11:02 weirdo annotated #72551 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72551#4 03:12:06 how do you explain that? 03:12:42 don't do numerics, but if ever do, won't ever use floats except in a critical loop... 03:14:44 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:47 what's the point? did you read what everyone must know about float points? 03:15:18 (and point is floating, apparently) 03:15:19 i didn't 03:15:42 what does 'point' mean in that context? 03:16:04 there should be a breathalyzer plugin for erc. i'd better go :/ 03:17:29 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:20:11 -!- int80_h [n=michael@h-68-166-221-28.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:21:02 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B4BCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:07 what is optimization technique when (isqrt (expt f 2)) can be reduced to `f'? 03:21:10 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:21:48 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:22:03 pkhuong: What do you mean? 03:22:35 rtoym: did you port SSE2 floats to x86? 03:23:06 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:23:39 pkhuong: Yes, I did steal the sse2 instruction definitions from sbcl. So the x86 binaries now include an x87 core and an sse2 core. The lisp runtime figures out which to use. 03:25:02 -!- pcalcado [n=pcalcado@51.068.dsl.syd.iprimus.net.au] has quit [] 03:25:20 rtoym: was the annoying cmucl scanning of arguments for -eval past -- fixed? 03:25:21 I'm not sure I see the advantage compared to a build-time conditional. 03:25:58 Fare: I doubt it, since I don't remember anyone complaining about it. 03:26:17 must have been a very old mailing list post of mine 03:26:28 back when I first released cl-launch 03:26:33 pkhuong: That was Carl's idea. Then the distribution can run anywhere. Sort of. 03:27:03 Fare: Sorry about that. If you can send it again, or file a trac bug. 03:27:13 you have a trac, now? 03:27:46 Yeah. It's on common-lisp.net. 03:28:08 stassats, gcc has some arith optimization, but still, both sqrt and expt would have to be defined as part of the arith folding stuff 03:28:35 -!- the-ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B4BCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:28:47 gcc has some magic stuff that optimizes arith expressions with variables in an efficient way 03:29:00 probably sbcl does it way better due to its lispness, though 03:30:35 weirdo: SBCL doesn't have much re pattern matching of expression, actually. 03:31:28 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 03:32:40 how hard it would be to add to sbcl support of an analog of gcc's -march or -mtune? 03:33:54 stassats: I expect most of the work will be in building a model. The compiler's pretty much regular stuff at that point in the compilation process. 03:36:37 pkhuong, btw, how does do sbcl in terms of register allocation? 03:36:54 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 03:36:58 if most of my code is variable shadowing, can i count on not consuming too many registers? 03:37:17 fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:25 cmucl's register allocation is pretty stupid, I here. 03:38:29 it's decent within a single basic block, not so good when you have tons of variables with live ranges spanning multiple bblocks. 03:38:34 Er, s/here/hear/ 03:38:46 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B7373.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:38:52 rtoym: cmucl ticket 28! http://trac.common-lisp.net/cmucl/ticket/28 03:39:09 Fare: Thanks. No I have no excuse. :-( 03:39:27 It's the same basic pure colouring allocator as CMUCL. No smart spilling nor live range splitting. That part too is fairly well modularised. 03:39:57 pkhuong, doesn't it do that intel graph coloring patented stuff? 03:40:00 heard it's good 03:40:14 oh. 03:40:30 good enough for me :-) thank you for the answer 03:42:27 weirdo: the high level optimiser is also often smart enough on copy propagation to foil one's efforts at splitting live ranges by hand ;) 03:43:01 pkhuong, did you get your presentation done in time? 03:43:29 tic: yes, but I should have reviewed it a second time. Too many uninteresting details. 03:43:46 does anyone here use clisp on windows ? 03:44:02 pkhuong, that happens. did you do the actual presentation yet? 03:44:25 tic: yes, that's how I realised the problem (after the fact). 03:47:19 pkhuong, it's usually how it happens. :) Myself I find it very hard to simulate a presentation/speech and the reactions one'd get, it's a feeling of "meh, if I start dissecting it now, I'll never get it done" 03:48:05 Fare: So, you want cmucl to stop processing the args when "--" is found. But you need everything after -- to be available to the application, right? 03:48:19 *rtoym* has forgotten how cmucl's command line processing is done. 03:49:24 pkhuong, is there a way to get some post-optimized IR of a toplevel sexp to see what sbcl is doing with it? 03:49:34 -!- CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-3-243.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:49:53 hopefully, something easy for a total sb-c newbie to parse? 03:50:15 Trace files have that information, I think. 03:51:19 weirdo: I bind sb-c::*compiler-trace-output* around a call to compile. 03:51:40 rtoym: yes 03:53:39 CrEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 04:02:00 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:03:02 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.164.168] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:03:09 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.176.161] has joined #lisp 04:03:23 hmm ir is flat? thought it'd indent for funcalls 04:04:27 that's some stuff i'll have to look at while sober :) thank you 04:04:36 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:05:50 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Excess Flood] 04:06:41 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 04:09:22 bobrown` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:27 now my slime prompt became green (font-lock-string-face) 04:09:33 i didn't do nothing, i swear! 04:10:09 jackdaw [n=jack@cpe-098-122-166-119.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:10:41 aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@69.171.146.51] has joined #lisp 04:10:45 -!- aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@69.171.146.51] has left #lisp 04:11:14 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:14 aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@69.171.146.51] has joined #lisp 04:13:38 -!- billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:14:28 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:14:44 -!- bobrown [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:14:59 billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 04:15:18 -!- jackdaw [n=jack@cpe-098-122-166-119.nc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 04:21:30 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 04:22:16 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:23:30 kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-34-220.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:00 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:28:29 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:29:29 -!- davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:37:01 hooray for cl types 04:37:03 (typep pattern '(cons matcher-variable nil)) 04:37:47 nevermind its' dynamicness, it's a great type system 04:42:01 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:42:48 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:47:07 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-220-241.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:50:37 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 04:54:31 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:56:22 evening 05:01:00 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 05:03:37 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 05:04:30 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1176023246.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 05:19:37 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:09 -!- lenatis [n=lenatis@119.117.106.98] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:23:36 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:23:50 aumontabe [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 05:25:23 -!- Riastrad1 is now known as Riastradh 05:25:33 -!- eaumontab [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:27:35 ((LAMBDA (X) (LIST X (LIST (QUOTE QUOTE) X))) . (QUOTE (LAMBDA (X) (LIST X (LIST (QUOTE QUOTE) X))))) 05:31:16 (print -) is shorter 05:33:07 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:33:34 blitz_ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has joined #lisp 05:34:53 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.6.160] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:37:13 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 05:38:42 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:43:08 -!- blitz_ [n=julian@77.64.176.217] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:47:57 "SYN Flood Attack Detect" Hmm. Someone is attacking my system. 05:49:35 not successfully, it seems. 05:50:52 Yeah, my router sent my that info. It also said "Packet Dropped". 05:51:57 good morning 05:52:59 Fare: Any particular interface you want for the command line args? 05:53:15 good morning lispers 05:57:07 -!- mvatki [n=michael@c-24-23-89-19.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:57:43 Should I use cffi or uffi? 05:57:59 My target platforms are SBCL, CCL, and perhaps CLISP. 05:58:09 All on Unices. 05:59:47 fooquux: cffi 06:00:02 Any specific reasons? 06:00:12 more actively maintained 06:00:24 uffi not so good with the CLISP 06:00:44 and you can use the lovely cffi tutorial ;) 06:00:57 Mmkay, sounds good. 06:02:49 now here's a stupid idea. i made everything in the pattern matcher independent and optional, including variable bindings 06:03:22 hey 06:03:23 guys 06:03:28 seriously I'm about to lose my mind 06:03:39 I can't figure out this bullshit 06:03:41 fucking lisp 06:03:44 ARGH! 06:03:49 and fucking emacs 06:04:03 stoned: well you know what they said about it being a terrible waste; they were lying 06:04:14 no its not a waste 06:04:17 im just venting 06:04:24 I'm sure I'll figure it out sooner or later 06:04:32 I'm only chapter 4 of the lisp book you guys told me about 06:04:47 I just need to publically vent 06:04:51 shout scream 06:04:58 LIKE FUCK STUPID SHIT IN THE WORLD. 06:05:14 state your inquiry instead of ranting inanely 06:05:18 goddamn people asking moronic questions, no one searching for themselves 06:05:25 I'm just irritateid with people 06:05:32 not lisp really 06:05:34 I just .. nm 06:05:38 I'm going now. bye. 06:07:16 -!- _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:07:26 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:07:37 -!- binarin` [n=user@gwn.alt1.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:10:51 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 06:12:06 so i fell in love with the slime inspector 06:12:37 it always DTRT even though i only know the mouse-click and the 'l' key 06:13:37 do you know, why I'm not be able to generate documentation with tinaa, and why someone suggests to avoid it ? 06:14:55 didn't like the output format much 06:15:04 the best thing's the one that outputs texinfo 06:15:06 dunno its name 06:15:17 I triead atdoc 06:15:19 tried edi's and tinaa so far and they were unremarkable 06:15:55 but it seems broken in generating html files :( 06:16:08 texinfo -> html 06:16:17 there's some gnu util for that prolly 06:16:23 I know 06:17:19 ask the sbcl folks what they used 06:17:20 :) 06:18:04 there is another issue: I used a lot of <,> in my docstrings because I've written a web framework, they are converted into odd chars 06:18:51 sbcl has its own tool 06:20:14 what to do to stop emacs from using tabs for auto indentation? 06:20:24 (setq indent-tabs-mode nil) doesn't help 06:20:39 (setq-default indent-tabs-mode nil) 06:20:51 my frameworks has now hundreds of exported symbols, withot and 'API extractor' I'm in trouble 06:21:08 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:21:30 *without 06:22:03 hmm so it's only for the repl 06:23:03 I go to the office, l8r 06:23:07 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 06:26:52 minion, memo for attila_lendvai: hey, i saw you committing to alexandria, i set up my own system of random stuff, the source's at http://tehran.lain.pl/stuff/etna/, if you find anything of use take it so i won't have to :use two utility packages instead of one :) 06:26:53 Remembered. I'll tell attila_lendvai when he/she/it next speaks. 06:29:45 weirdo, tehran from Les Mondes Engloutis? 06:30:05 tic, all offspring song, a punk rock band that sold out years ago 06:30:08 s/all/old 06:30:32 weirdo, ah, dzieki. 06:31:27 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 06:32:31 <3 scheme's named `let' 06:39:00 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:44:38 (defmacro rlet (name bindings &body body) `(labels ((,name ,(mapcar #'car bindings) . ,body)) (,name . ,(mapcar #'cadr bindings)))) 06:47:11 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:48:09 what is the easiest way to change a string into a symbol? 06:48:25 clhs intern 06:48:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 06:48:29 clhs find-symbol 06:48:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_s.htm 06:49:10 if you already know, that symbol is interned, then find-symbol is better 06:50:35 Raynes [i=kvirc@AC83088F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 06:51:56 i am getting |string-contents| returned -- between |'s -- am i doing something wrong? 06:52:13 apologies, i have tried to read the manual on this but haven't had any luck 06:52:19 interning downcased string 06:52:28 clhs string-upcase 06:52:28 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stg_up.htm 06:53:00 thank you! 06:53:42 S11001001, for the first iteration, they need to be bound in a let* :P 06:54:36 `(let* ,bindings (,name . ,(mapcar #'car))) :P 07:00:47 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has quit [] 07:01:19 -!- rcy` [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:06:01 rcy [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:30 weirdo: no 07:14:30 named let is like let not let* 07:19:01 any recommendations on a good 'intro to AI' book? 07:19:15 (leaning toward AIMA..) 07:21:42 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 07:23:09 oh, there seems to be a 3rd edition of AIMA on the way O.o 07:26:59 S11001001, no, i mean when calling ,name for the first time, with let* bindings can reference previous ones 07:27:01 http://jsnell.iki.fi/blog/archive/2007-12-19-pretty-sbcl-backtraces.html <-- someone knows how integrate this with slime ? 07:27:12 weirdo: yes, but that isn't allowed by named let 07:27:20 to have this "Pretty SBCL backtraces" feature 07:27:26 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:47 i thought this article is "how integrate this with slime" 07:31:59 ok, it seems it only uses swank 07:34:00 ok :( .... it works fine .... i made a mistake 07:38:42 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:39:34 cat's sitting intentfully on my lap through the night. nevermind the toilet, i can't turn off the light 07:39:52 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.153.205] has joined #lisp 07:40:10 coincidentally, after sending the message, cat jumped off due to someone waking up and making noise 07:41:02 the power of IRC 07:43:30 wingo-tp [n=wingo@249.Red-81-39-160.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:14 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:52:13 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.153.205] has quit ["Most people need their heads examined. Or severed."] 07:54:01 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["later"] 07:54:57 hi 07:55:12 is there an ide for lisp besides emacs? 07:55:16 emacs is horrible 07:55:21 keyboard whore. 07:55:29 stoned: lolwut 07:55:29 hard to use keyboard shortcuts, and so many of em 07:55:31 stoned: emacs is the best free ide for lisp. 07:55:36 how am I supposed to remember all this shit? 07:55:38 c'mon 07:55:41 I'm a pothead 07:55:41 learn it? 07:55:41 wtf 07:55:42 stoned: you can stop 07:55:44 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 07:55:47 stoned: http://phil.nullable.eu/ 07:55:50 -!- Krystof has set mode +b *!*@unaffiliated/stoned 07:55:50 also, bye. 07:55:59 I don't know much emacs either but I can do things the clumsy way.. 07:56:10 stoned: please do come back when you have something interesting to contribute 07:56:18 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has been kicked from #lisp 07:57:09 I wonder if he tried the emacs GUI 07:57:26 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 07:57:35 I think it's worth noting that in a mailing list post about the ratpoison WM, they claimed that one of the main reasons for developing something like ratpoison was to manage things through keyboard shortcuts and avoid the mouse while tripping, since they found reaching for the mouse to interrupt their high. 07:57:55 hope that's not how i behave while stoned... 07:57:59 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:58:19 that made me thinking... 07:58:37 i don't think that being stoned is any excuse for being silly 07:58:48 sykopomp, wow! got any links? 07:59:14 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.153.205] has joined #lisp 07:59:16 http://www.nongnu.org/ratpoison/inspiration.html <-- 07:59:20 :) 07:59:28 H4ns: not at all, I was simply making a counterpoint to his claim. 08:00:28 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:39 so that's what 'toking' means 08:02:40 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-74-68-128-11.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:03:26 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:03:36 mrSpec [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 08:03:47 Hi 08:04:02 so programming while stoned is feasible for anyone? 08:04:37 system administration while stoned usually leads to halting the wrong machine 08:04:37 weirdo: programming whilst being drunk was my first reason to use a vcs :) 08:07:08 weirdo, legalities aside, personally I've seemed to get through codewriter's blocks if I've smoked some, and I feel that it is much, much easier to think about the code (that is, actually 'see' it and reason about it in an efficient manner even without looking at the screen). but YMMV :) 08:07:48 i do "architectural design" and ponderings while stoned sometimes 08:07:59 at least I know I wouldn't have finished a couple of projects otherwise...but chronic smoking probably isn't very helpful in the same way 08:08:22 today while drunk, i found out i could abstract everything 08:08:51 being drunk works for java 08:08:53 ;) 08:09:04 i found it easier to admire my own designs when stoned, but in my experience, i could not repeat the admiration when being sober again. 08:09:33 tiesje [n=user@124.41.241.154] has joined #lisp 08:09:56 i thought out lotsa' stuff that appeared great, but were complete gibberish when sobered up 08:10:31 I had a concurrent programming project a while ago and was a bit stuck figuring out how to do a few things, then I happened to smoke some, and while just sitting for a while I could visualize the whole block of code I needed to write, then wrote it and it worked fine 08:11:10 though most of it wasn't programming-related 08:11:20 i'm not sure if anything of it was programming-related 08:11:21 I dunno, it's just easier for me at least to 'get a hold of it' that way 08:12:04 but one thing i thought up while sleep-deprived for 3 days was that a nondeterministic search for scheme in 'on lisp' looks like a session of rogue 08:12:13 i still think it's correct 08:12:38 sleep deprivation is an altered state alright :) 08:13:11 i'm technically sleep-deprived for 1/2 or more of non-sleep-time 08:13:26 technically I'm pretty much sleep deprived always 08:13:27 combine that with chain smoking... a pulse rate of 100 08:13:47 I wake up 2-4 times a night to clean up a litter box and wipe off pee from the floor... 08:14:06 all of that because serialization works poorly for human animal... i feel like dissing the Intelligent Designer 08:14:52 why does the kitteh(s) pee on the floor? 08:15:01 he/she might be angry/jealous 08:15:30 robyonrails [n=roby@host14-155-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:19:17 Tordek [n=tordek@host186.190-137-177.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 08:19:38 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-177-106-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:23:13 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-177-106-178.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:39 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@cpe-67-243-48-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:25:18 beach [n=user@203.210.248.212] has joined #lisp 08:25:23 Good afternoon. 08:25:37 beach: uh? are you in the east? 08:26:22 adsl.hnpt.com.vn -> yes ;-) 08:26:33 H4ns: yeah, Vietnam. 08:26:37 ah! good afternoon, beach! 08:26:44 good afternoon beach 08:26:54 egh, mornings are hard 08:26:57 *madnificent* gets some coffee 08:27:13 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:27:21 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:29 so H4ns, what's your favorite movie? 08:31:31 kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a1b0b68d30825d2f] has joined #lisp 08:31:52 hello lispers 08:32:12 hello kiuma, what's your favorite movie? 08:32:51 <_8david> Moin. 08:34:29 mmm.... 08:34:45 favourite movie ... 08:34:56 Shining I think 08:35:12 Wendy!!! WENDY!!!!!! 08:35:39 sometime I speak to my finger :) 08:35:59 *madnificent* searches imbd 08:36:03 #lisp is strange today... 08:36:53 -!- aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@69.171.146.51] has quit [Client Quit] 08:37:33 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 08:37:45 I'm trying to create api html from docstring. I've re-tried tinaa, it seems not to be working anymore. I'm giving a try to atdoc, but html generation seems to be broken and I must escape <,> and newlines are ignored :( 08:38:31 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 08:39:50 <_8david> HTML generation is broken? where, what, how? 08:40:52 kiuma: atdoc works fine for me ... HTML and tex generation 08:41:39 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-74-68-128-11.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:42:01 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:42:05 H4ns2 [n=Hans@p57BBA4B2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:42:25 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:42:56 <_8david> kiuma: HTML output is done using closure html's serializer. I won't rule out escaping bugs, but I haven't seen any yet. Example? 08:43:22 binarin [n=user@gwn.alt1.ru] has joined #lisp 08:43:45 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:44:06 -!- tiesje [n=user@124.41.241.154] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:44:20 any easy way to recompile a frame/form in slime with dynamic environment? 08:44:39 weirdo, I've 3 cats, two are russian blue and one domestic, the domestic one grew up in difficult conditions and for some reason likes to take a piss on the floor, I hope that soon-to-happen sterilization helps with that 08:45:10 how old is he/she? 08:45:45 -!- H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA711.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:45:55 all are she, the pisscat is the youngest and about 8 months old iirc 08:46:05 it's best to sterilize early to reduce the possibility of marking habits surviving sterilization 08:46:18 iirc mine got sterilized at 6 months 08:46:26 it's before he ever pissed 08:46:38 well, this has been doing it since birth ;) 08:46:59 i thought she was distressed due to some unwanted animal, human or otherwise 08:47:03 oh 08:47:06 but I guess we're drifting to off-topic chatter... 08:47:27 not like anyone else is awake, apparently :) 08:47:45 Some people are. 08:48:11 always thought cats are lisp-related 08:48:20 cats look exactly like they could understand lisp or go 08:49:14 <_8david> H4ns2: james anderson is asking about a missing pgp signature for the current cl+ssl tarball, breaking asdf-install. Do you know anything about that? 08:50:53 -!- elurin` [n=user@85.99.71.86] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:50:55 l_a_m: I've this message when trying to generate html The function CLOSURE-HTML::WRITE-ROD is undefined. 08:53:16 <_8david> kiuma: I don't think there is such a function (anymore). Are you using tarballs or git/darcs checkouts? 08:53:18 _8david: is that I have dev-lisp/closure-html-20071021 ? 08:53:53 <_8david> oh, that doesn't look recent enough 08:54:23 _8david: it's the current tarball 08:54:49 kiuma: i install closure-html, xuriella and atdoc from git repo 08:55:07 <_8david> kiuma: oops 08:55:21 mulligan [n=user@e178026050.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:56:31 gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:57:06 l_a_m: I'm behind a darned firewall, I can't access to git from here 08:57:57 *_8david* rsyncs vigorously to common-lisp.net 08:58:10 I updated xuriella and atdoc from git from home, but I've some problems getting git closure-html from here 08:58:20 <_8david> argh, http://common-lisp.net/project/closure/closure-html/download/ != http://common-lisp.net/project/closure/download/ 08:59:17 _8david: thx very much I'll notify fe[nl]ix for a gentoo update 08:59:55 what's the preferred way for putting the last REPL expression into a file or kill ring with emacs/SLIME? 09:01:35 _8david: thank you very much 09:03:00 <_8david> my mistake, thanks for pointing it out 09:04:19 np. the important is that is now solved ;) 09:06:24 _8david: another question: is it possible to render the docstring in a pre. I've problems with newlines. Adding the @itemize would be very long and would make the docstring a bit messy from emacs 09:08:27 <_8david> uh, all of the docstrings or a particular section? 09:08:37 <_8david> @begin{pre} ... @end{pre} works for the latter. 09:08:52 many of them 09:09:42 _8david: as for http://common-lisp.net/websvn/filedetails.php?repname=claw&path=%2Ftrunk%2Fmain%2Fclaw-html%2Fsrc%2Ftags.lisp&rev=0&sc=0 09:10:20 <_8david> To affect formatting globally, I'd suggest changing the XSL stylesheet and/or the CSS stylesheet. 09:10:37 <_8david> Oh, you basically just want magical itemization for anything starting with a minus sign? 09:11:35 _8david: maybe the 'magically' could be sufficient, (I could change the minus to a -- if needed) 09:11:56 <_8david> Looking at your existing docstrings, I'd recommend using SBCL's docstring syntax instead of atdoc syntax. 09:12:22 <_8david> You can't use that syntax with atdoc's stylesheets just yet, but I'm planning to do some hacking over christmas in that direction. 09:12:42 yes, I perviusly used tinaa, but it doesn't work anymore 09:13:16 schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e47ae4eab1a487ae] has joined #lisp 09:13:45 _8david: atdoc output is good as well, but I need to solve these small problems 09:18:22 <_8david> For now, I don't really have a solution that doesn't involve updating all your docstrings to a different syntax. In two weeks, things might be different. 09:19:13 _8david: If you are already planning to apply those chages, it's good for me, since I've to go on with finishing the texinfo manual 09:19:30 _8david: two weeks should be good 09:20:29 <_8david> BTW, since you're apparently using gentoo, do I still have to get an overlay for fe[nl]ix's stuff? 09:20:35 gonzijive pasted "openMCL SLIME crash" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72558 09:21:08 _8david: I like also the possibility to generate texinfo, so that I cann attach the api to the manual, but I see that if a docstring contains <,> it's good for html, but not for tex 09:21:17 *tex output 09:22:11 _8david: I can tell fe[nl]ix to update it when he's available 09:22:59 or you can tell him by yourself if you prefer 09:23:25 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 09:23:44 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:24:02 glogic [n=rm@97.76.48.100] has joined #lisp 09:24:44 <_8david> right, my plan is to have compatible versions of texinfo-docstrings and atdoc. Docstring syntax would be entirely independent of the output format. 09:25:15 <_8david> oh, I just wanted to try the gentoo stuff. From what I've heard so far, it seems to be way better than the debian packgaes. 09:25:43 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.153.205] has quit ["I have too much respect for the idea of God to make it responsible for such an absurd world."] 09:25:47 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:25:59 how do i get function docstring in sbcl? 09:26:02 _8david: I feel great with it :) 09:26:05 -!- aumontabe [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:26:20 aumontabe [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 09:26:25 weirdo: from slime ? 09:26:33 kiuma, need to require swank? 09:26:37 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:26:43 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.153.205] has joined #lisp 09:27:07 weirdo: I tried swank time ago and it extracts them pretty well 09:27:18 thank you 09:28:19 -!- glogic [n=rm@97.76.48.100] has left #lisp 09:29:37 _8david: it should be nice to extrace them with a regex, for example in my code all functions that ends with a '>' are functions for generating tags, it should be nice to have them all togeter and not just all exported symbols ordered alphabetically, but this is not a big issua, only a nice to have 09:29:44 weirdo: (documentation 09:31:09 :)) thank you 09:31:23 that's even portable, not like it matters for the purpose of documentation generation 09:33:09 pjb pasted "let's see, have cats the lisp spirit?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72559 09:33:28 can anyone comment on this book? http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-LISP-Technology-Information-Processing/dp/0415298199/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230022455&sr=1-13 09:34:04 *weirdo* defines abstraction abstractions 09:34:38 or maybe /me defines definition definitions 09:34:48 that sounds even worse... or better? 09:34:58 H4ns: I could comment more if Santa Claus would bring me a copy so I could read it; otherwise, I'd just say that it must be about the only book on PaLisp, so it must be interesting. 09:35:31 nice lisppaste 09:35:57 matimago: it's not on palisp - the toc has a number of interesting headlines, but i'm kind of sceptical because all authors are japanese. often, japanese papers are hard to read. 09:36:05 (even when translated to english, that is) 09:36:32 wow $129 09:36:45 H4ns: Sorry, the font was too small, it's PaiLisp indeed. 09:36:56 You can browse it on Amazon... 09:37:07 matimago: no, really! 09:37:14 http://www.amazon.com/gp/reader/0415298199/ref=sib_fs_top?ie=UTF8&p=S00K&checkSum=1bzE5Q6s%2BGBnwWwqRLCTi1EK%2B%2Bu6ujxuQoIxUK7KPS8%3D#reader-link 09:37:21 matimago: you can, too. have a look at the table of contents 09:37:50 lispm [n=joswig@e177159177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:37:51 matimago, not feeding cats raw turkey meat is animal cruelty 09:38:27 perhaps lispm knows this book. he's seen everything. 09:38:40 what? 09:38:42 haha 09:38:54 lispm: do you? 09:39:08 I haven't seen the question ;-) 09:39:24 lispm: can anyone comment on this book? http://www.amazon.com/Advanced-LISP-Technology-Information-Processing/dp/0415298199/ref=sr_1_13?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230022455&sr=1-13 09:39:24 what was the question? 09:39:27 It's sometime that I'm asking where Xach has gone 09:40:02 I have it in front of me 09:40:04 It looks interesting, there's chapters about implementations. 09:40:09 :) 09:40:20 lispm: can you comment on the quality? 09:40:34 lispm: i.e. is it proper english? 09:40:57 lispm: does it say more than "in our lab, we've tried something out"? 09:41:05 The english is okay. 09:41:28 the articles are written by Japanese and they report about their research mostly 09:41:41 so lots of things we have never heard before 09:42:03 Lisp is quite 'popular' there, but one gets little information about what they are doing 09:42:15 it is a lot about research in parallel Lips 09:42:26 and implementation of exotic Lisp systems 09:42:28 Lips better be parallel... 09:42:39 Lips, right haha 09:43:01 I just saw that in a german paper: lips processing 09:43:10 lispm: would you buy it again? 09:43:54 since the parallel Lisp stuff interests me, I would say yes 09:44:36 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:44:44 frostb [n=frostb@ip70-190-35-142.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:44:50 it is a bit over 280 pages, print is okay 09:44:56 I'd like gigamonkey would write another book, I like his style :) 09:45:37 but it is implementation research oriented topic 09:46:09 lispm: ok, thanks :) 09:46:32 manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 09:46:36 watched a lisp screencast made by a japanese guy once and he spoke proper english. the fact made me confused :/ 09:47:43 you can go to the Franz JLUGM website, they have stuff in japanese, and be more confused ;-) 09:47:58 i'm not saying that there are no japanese who speak and write proper english, but i've read quite a few japanese papers that where supposed to be english, but were very hard to grok nevertheless. 09:49:25 http://www.mail-archive.com/cvs-all@freebsd.org/msg91826.html 09:50:01 this is freebsd, no one ever makes fun of the guy on the lists. that speaks for the s/n ratio of the lists :) 09:50:56 most of it's like this, perfect spelling but poor grammar and word choice 09:51:46 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:52:00 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 09:52:48 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #lisp 09:52:59 _8david: I see that atdoc reports no documentation for action-link-parameters but they are defined here->http://common-lisp.net/websvn/filedetails.php?repname=claw&path=%2Ftrunk%2Fmain%2Fclaw-html%2Fsrc%2Fcomponents.lisp&rev=0&sc=0 09:53:04 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 09:54:16 <_8david> The slot definition object is documented, not the reader function. 09:54:36 <_8david> there's a keyword argument in atdoc that enables slots documentation 09:55:00 <_8david> but to document the function, you'd have to (setf (documentation #'action-link-parameters 'function) "foo") 09:55:15 <_8david> or (defgeneric action-link-parameters (instance) (:documentation "foo")) 09:55:31 tomsw [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 09:55:39 ok 09:55:45 Hi. First time here- if I'm new to Lisp, as in know very little about it, where should I start? Any recommended books? 09:55:57 minion: tell frostb about pcl 09:55:58 frostb: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 09:56:02 minion: tell frostb about gentle 09:56:02 frostb: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 09:56:51 excellent, thanks 09:57:50 just a comment on the book mentioned earlier, I find the price at amazon too expensive 09:59:14 lispm: i find it too expensive, too. i've put it onto my short list for books i might buy used when in a "buy some used books" mood 09:59:27 some cheaper here: 09:59:28 http://www.abebooks.de/servlet/SearchResults?sts=t&prl=25.00&an=&sortby=3&x=0&y=0&tn=Advanced+LISP+Technology&kn=&pn=&yrl=&yrh=&prl=&prh= 10:00:38 I know that mood 10:01:07 -!- beach [n=user@203.210.248.212] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:01:27 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[afk] 10:01:56 _8david: how can I avoid the 'undocumented function' for slot accessors ? 10:02:14 <_8david> document them :-) 10:02:20 Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:02:26 vtl [n=user@r10ni46.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 10:02:46 schasi [n=schasi@p54A27994.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:05 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A27994.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 10:05:50 _8david: but I need to cut and paste :( 10:06:02 *copy and paste 10:06:13 a @see should be better 10:06:33 er even nothing 10:06:59 <_8david> don't know. Good documentation for an accessor would explain the argument, which the slot doesn't have. Would talk about a return value, while slot documentation would talk about the slot value. 10:07:22 <_8david> If you can copy&paste from slot documentation to accessor documentation, your docstring is not detailed enough. :-p 10:09:34 _8david: mm... I like things to be done in a proper way, I think you are right 10:09:38 younder [n=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 10:09:39 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["kbai."] 10:16:20 caliostro1 [n=caliostr@82.85.85.34] has joined #lisp 10:16:36 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:17:46 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:14 my little "anneliza" just wrote this: 10:18:17 heated shoes flimsy as apples are worn by 10:18:17 my evelyn who plays bottomless flutes and 10:18:17 can't help spinning her crimson clocks for 10:18:17 our house will invent the inflexible human 10:18:49 using princeton's "wordnet" & some simple grammar rules and some ideation rules 10:19:03 if anyone else does similar things i'd LOVE to see some output 10:19:47 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:19:50 Generating test is nice. Understanding it is better. 10:20:01 What was the original idea Anneliza had? 10:20:11 s/test/text/ 10:20:33 "write a four-lined poem about evolution" 10:21:10 the three databases are wordnet, my "ideation database" which links words/ideas to each other inside wordnet, & a grammar database 10:21:52 Poesia is something else. I would have to add the requirements that it can resent the goodness of the poem too. 10:22:16 s/resent/feel/ 10:22:16 what is poesia 10:22:18 sorry. 10:22:31 resent goodness of poem? 10:22:36 poetry 10:22:47 ( that output is VERY-AVERAGE which is why i chose it - the good stuff looks like a hoax ) 10:22:49 Yes, in a way, that's how I feel them :-) 10:24:16 what do you mean by resent 10:24:25 is Poesia your entity? 10:24:33 Wrong word. s/resent/feel/ 10:24:42 s/poesia/poetry/ 10:26:11 I mean, if you generate prose, I'd expect it to be done meaningfully (with understanding). If you generate poetry, I'd expect it to be done with feeling. 10:26:26 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.216.72] has joined #lisp 10:26:35 what are these slashes, your directory structure? 10:27:14 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:27:15 s is the substitution command in classical editors. / is the usual separator caracter used to distinguish the pattern from the replacement text. 10:27:35 s/abc/def/ means replace "abc" by "def". 10:27:48 isismelting: you sound like a bot 10:27:55 Indeed. 10:28:12 It would be good enough. 10:29:22 i sound like a bot? 10:29:41 The level drops, now you sound like Eliza :-) 10:29:42 apologies 10:29:51 in what way do i sound like Eliza:-) 10:31:14 you passed the reverse turing test! 10:31:51 go on 10:32:23 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:32:31 oh let me share one more of these with you guys! i think this program is really neat -- because i don't know what i'm doing, i messed up in some rewarding ways 10:32:33 -!- gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:32:50 gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:32:55 ((the invisible building walks on my crimson flesh)(with its bright palace of intangible antique dress)(i will awake with the childrenesque frozen alive)) 10:33:35 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:33:45 if i just change awake to awaken that's practically just-slightly-awful 10:34:13 it's all because of this database of <100 abstractions and their relations to each other 10:34:50 is that output above or below interesting, or is it totally gay and i'm just drunk or something 10:35:13 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:35:40 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 10:36:38 sigh nobody cares. 10:36:54 gonzojive_ [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:38:10 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 10:38:59 -!- gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:39:01 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 10:39:05 should i take that as "you're totally gay and should put down the bottle and shred any implementations you have on your hard drive" 10:39:35 isismelting: for me, it'd suffice if you'd just stop talking for now. 10:40:27 how is it that you care to say that but can't tell me whether the output that i think is cool is in fact cool or in fact useless 10:40:28 benny` [n=benny@i577A18E9.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:41:03 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-138-91.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:41:53 sorry, i'm a proper amateur. 10:41:53 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:41:55 _8david: how do I escape < and > with atdoc ? 10:42:06 gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:45 <_8david> they doesn't have a special meaning in atdoc, so you don't have to escape them... 10:43:51 but when generating tex they are printed with ! and ? 10:44:17 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:44:40 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0579.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:44:58 <_8david> aha, that's a bug then. See escape-latex-string in atdoc.lisp. Do you have a patch for me? 10:45:32 <_8david> The LaTeX output doesn't look very good anyway, so I didn't advertise it much. 10:46:22 <_8david> Instead I ordered the TeX book and am planning to make the output pretty and correct once I've read it. :-) 10:47:26 _8david: the pdf output http://www.wingstech.com/clawdoc/documentation.pdf 10:48:18 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-190-161.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 10:48:53 <_8david> look pretty bad IMHO. The escaping bug, awful formatting on my part, and your docstrings (which don't actually use atdoc syntax) all contribute to that. 10:50:09 _8david: you have already convinced me to use atdoc syntax :) but the code was done before and I started with atdoc yesterday :P 10:50:17 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 10:50:24 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:41 _8david: I'll spend some time in changing the docstrings 10:51:04 I think it will take time though :/ 10:51:21 anyone have experience with clg? 10:51:31 <_8david> again, a switch to SBCL syntax would probably be easier for you than a switch to atdoc syntax 10:52:04 <_8david> But I need to get some "real" work done. Good luck with your documentation. 10:54:54 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 10:55:40 is there a writeup about the documentation systems for CL somewhere (if so, where?) 11:00:28 breinded [n=nonamme@h-67-100-110-200.nycmny83.dynamic.covad.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:50 Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-4418179.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:02:13 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-128.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:04:03 Hi people! I need to append an element to the end of an existing list, without using APPEND. I thought this: (reverse (cons elm (reverse list))). Is there a better way ? Thanks for bothering! 11:04:16 Beket: is this homework? 11:04:38 H4ns, no, I am just studying lisp by my own motivation and this question came up 11:04:53 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483BD9B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:19 Beket: doing two reverses is wasteful, but your approach has the beauty of simplicity 11:05:46 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [] 11:05:48 Beket: you could just traverse the list once, consing on your way, then add the new element at the end. 11:06:10 vtl` [n=user@r10ni46.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 11:06:17 Beket: or you could be destructive and use LAST. not that i'd recommend it. 11:06:17 H4ns, thanks for encouraging. I'll explore your idea. Thanks again. 11:11:50 Nocebojin [n=shaun@CPE-124-186-227-195.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:12:13 -!- breinded_ [n=nonamme@h-66-167-246-169.nycmny83.dynamic.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:13:22 -!- ths__ is now known as ths 11:13:27 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:13:27 ive just been doing some nub coding. learn lisp and atm im learning to generate the nth fibonacci number factorials using recursion as a way to loop 11:13:51 from what ive read people dont like recursion. is there a reason? i like the mind bendy'ness of it 11:14:37 Nocebojin: i like recursion where it makes code clearer. for simple loops, i seldomly find recursive implementations easier to read 11:14:41 the-ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B4BCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:43 I haven't noticed a special dislike towards recursion...designing a recursive algorithm may just be somewhat trickier 11:15:06 Nocebojin: besides, in common lisp, we don't have guaranteed tail call optimization, so recursion is not free as it is in scheme, for tail calls. 11:16:44 what tail call optimisation? 11:16:51 what is* 11:16:53 "To iterate is human; to recurse divine" :) 11:16:55 Nocebojin: please google 11:17:09 haha lol 11:19:48 if you can get your head around it, recursion is pretty. 11:20:33 If I use connect to a swank server, does that mean that I could actually put a my .lisp files locally and have sbcl compile it? 11:20:52 taking into considering optimisation i dont know. im not that hardcore. i just use languages to make computers do stuff lol. 11:21:37 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8ac8-063.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:21:53 crod [n=cmell@cb8a6a-078.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:23:06 consideration* 11:23:28 -!- vtl [n=user@r10ni46.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:23:45 leo2007: I thought that for some things in SLIME it will send the file across the network. e.g. C-c C-k 11:24:16 H4ns: is there some way of discovering whether or not it was optimised (especially for sbcl) 11:24:37 leo2007: I don't have experience with it myself, i just SSH and open emacs since I generally need to do non-lisp stuff remotely, too 11:24:56 leo2007: otherwise tramp could help you (I think) 11:24:59 madnificent: whether you blow your stack or not 11:25:30 stassats`: _before_ destroying runtime stassats` :P 11:26:06 stack overflow doesn't destroy runtime 11:26:19 usually 11:26:28 madnificent: I'm about to go to a place with very slow network connection 11:26:31 stassats`: yes, I know. I didn't really know how to express it correctly though 11:26:59 madnificent: it is pretty portable way even across different languages 11:27:19 H4ns, joga, Beket: thanks for your input :) 11:27:25 see ya 11:27:33 -!- Nocebojin [n=shaun@CPE-124-186-227-195.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:27:45 leo2007: just an idea, you could try to build an ssh-tunnel that gzips it's contents. That could save you a lot of bandwith for text-like stuff 11:28:50 madnificent: you could put a break into your function after a few recursive invocations and look at the stack - if tail calls are optimized, you'll see no frames for the recursive invocations. 11:29:06 madnificent: not that this would be a very scientific approach or proof or anything. 11:29:33 madnificent: other than that if you see frames for your recursive invocations, you don't have tail call elimination 11:29:36 I was assuming sbcl could give you some hint about it. Good enough though 11:29:36 does anyone have experience embedding CLisp as a C library? I'd like to put it on the iPhone 11:30:47 I tried ECL but eventually I hit a wall debugging a runtime error 11:30:55 gonzojive: I seem to remember the iphone wasn't that happy about it. Someone at #cl-gardeners did get some lisp running on the iphone (but I think it was not CL). He's probably around here too 11:31:21 merlincorey: you gotz iphonez? ^ 11:31:25 I read about 'Nu' on the iphone 11:31:41 I read about Nu, too. the author didn't email me back :( 11:31:47 http://programming.nu/ 11:31:54 madnificent: thanks 11:32:04 there is are Nu release just this dec 11:32:31 'Ports to Linux and the Apple iPhone are also available' 11:32:58 though I never tried to use it... 11:33:23 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:33:32 lispm: thanks 11:34:42 leo2007: fyi, you can use your standard ssh-command with -C as an extra option to any ssh-command to get gzip (did not test it). Don't expect it to be a miracleworker. 11:35:22 madnificent: if set up putty to use compression ;) 11:36:33 s/if/I/ 11:40:04 beach [n=user@203.210.248.212] has joined #lisp 11:40:08 good evening 11:40:37 Hi, beach. How's 'nam? 11:42:22 -!- younder [n=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 11:44:13 gzip4 [n=xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 11:45:17 manuel_ [n=manuel@tecov6133.teco.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 11:46:06 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:46:17 Quadresce` [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:04 tic: It's great! I had lunch today, getting a huge amount of very good food (pork to be wrapped with fresh vegetables and leaves in rice paper) and two Saigon Beers for less than 3 EUR. 11:48:46 beach: How much is beer? 11:50:06 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:50:16 kzar: I can't tell whether it was 1 EUR for 1 or for 2. 11:51:09 kzar: but it varies from place to place and according to whether you are a native or not by a factor 10, 11:51:17 s/,/./ 11:51:28 beach: oh bugger 11:51:33 does anybody have tinaa and lift installed ? 11:52:14 beach, sounds like a nice meal. The Vietnamese equivalent of fish'n'chips. :-) 11:53:14 tic: pretty much yes. The wrapper-thing seems omnipresent here in Nha Trang. 11:55:27 -!- fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:56:38 beach, do you spend Xmas in Vietnam ? 11:56:43 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 11:57:02 spec[afk]: Yes, with my wife. 11:57:13 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a17-112.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:57:31 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a6a-078.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:57:42 kzar: looks more and more like 1 EUR for 2. 11:58:00 mmm, omnipresent pork. speaking of pork, I would not mind an s-exp front-end for Python, which would also make the last statement an implicit return. 11:58:06 do You have Xmass tree in hotel room ? :D 11:58:13 Does anyone have that for me? (pretty please?) 11:58:14 beach: I definately want to go there sometime, haven't travelled enough yet. (going to Vancouver next year though at least!) 11:58:31 appletizer [i=a@82-32-122-46.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:59:10 spec[afk]: luckily no. 11:59:15 beach: man it's so much more expensive here :( 12:00:25 kzar: perhaps if you drink enough of it, the airline ticket will be cheaper. 12:00:42 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 12:00:57 lessee..., a few hundred liters should be enough. 12:01:18 -!- Partyzant [n=Partyzan@rps312.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:01:24 Partyzant [n=Partyzan@rps312.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:34 beach: Apparently you can buy ketamine in pharmacies out there as well heh, (npt my cup of tea but still interesting anyway) 12:02:32 _8david: is there the possibility to use custom xsl sheet ? I solved my problem putting description inside a
12:03:27  kzar: alcohol will do fine for me, especially in the form of a good wine.
12:04:46 *tic* has some warm spiced (fake) wine.
12:04:59  beach: yea it's probably a better choice heh
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12:08:30 Russel-Athletic [n=engelzz@p508E3FEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp
12:08:33  hiho
12:08:36 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47873.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp
12:09:37  hello Russel-Athletic
12:10:18  Russel-Athletic pasted "debug-output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72563
12:10:33  so i try to do something like this
12:10:38 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3c9f.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp
12:10:54  but i get a problem because i thing the &rest does something like an implicit list and the format wants not a list
12:11:00  how can i solve this?
12:11:52  Russel-Athletic: Why don't you just use a separate (terpri) after the format?
12:12:14  i could use that, does it make a difference?
12:12:46 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp
12:13:15  by the way the x is args
12:13:17  Russel-Athletic: (apply #'format t ...) will spread out the list collected by &rest
12:13:19  Oh, I see.  You want to apply the format string to each element of the rest?
12:13:31  i postet the wrong function
12:14:11  thanks michaelw
12:14:13  that works
12:15:14  to be nice, print your debug info to *debug-io*
12:15:17  Russel-Athletic: there are several other things that I would change, though.
12:15:37  yeah, the `t' for instance
12:15:38  stassats`: or *trace-output*
12:15:48  i am open for opinions
12:15:59  because i write this litle programm to learn lisp
12:16:07  also, debug appears to be a special, so it should be named *debug*
12:17:02  i thought only global variables should be named *name*
12:18:15  Russel-Athletic: well, debug is one, no?
12:18:34  oh you mean this debug
12:18:35  right
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12:20:04  should global constants als be named like this?
12:20:24  constants are usually named as +constant+
12:20:59  thanks
12:21:21  didn't know that IF could only accept one form in its ELSE
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12:21:56  FWIW, I use hello debugging much less in Lisp than in any other language; because there is TRACE, and the REPL to try things out
12:22:23  I use debugging much less because the debugger is pretty pitiful.
12:22:49  leo2007: CL:IF yes, emacs' if has an implicit progn in the else branch
12:23:14  beach: which one?
12:23:30  ((electricity sprints toward an army base)(and it soon approaches a full lunar bloom)(but everyone dies right beside the spark of life)(from structure an error nil comes the))
12:23:33  michaelw: well, I am using SBCL, so whatever it can do.
12:24:16  michaelw: old habits die hard :)
12:25:11  Russel-Athletic: they die faster if you discover that the new ways are actually superior :)
12:25:58 gonzojive_ [n=red@ip98-169-46-222.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp
12:27:01  :)
12:27:45  Is there a common lisp alternative to wordpress that anyone can recommend?
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12:34:39  Dinner.  I might be back later.
12:34:42 -!- beach [n=user@203.210.248.212] has left #lisp
12:36:23  beach: cya later
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12:46:02 <_8david> _3b: are you here?  I'm having trouble with :lookup-switch and fixups for forward jumps
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12:47:51  Russel-Athletic: sorry, your debug-output is bugged. (debug-output "~Ah! ~Ah!")
12:48:11  :)
12:48:25  Ah, ok, you meant format-control, not string.
12:48:28  So is lisp 'gaining popularity' ?
12:48:37  jsoft: yes.
12:49:04  In the obviously un-bias opinions of coincidental lisp users in this channel?
12:49:07  :)
12:50:00  Is there a graph showing how buzzword and hype compliant lisp is?
12:50:00  The hunger spreads all over the world. They may not know that they want lisp, but the need is there.
12:50:09  ;)
12:52:00  jsoft: http://tiobe.com/content/paperinfo/tpci/
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13:00:09  locklace: well that looks kind of... useless
13:00:29  and pretty much suggests lisp declining
13:01:11  i like how we're losing to logo
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13:01:26  Russel-Athletic: the problem is that once you've declared a symbol to be a constant, you cannot use that symbol for a variable, even a lexical one anymore. (defconstant x 1) (let ((x 2)) (print x)) is undefined.
13:01:49  Russel-Athletic: therefore you better NOT use a symbol such as X to name your constants.
13:02:01  Russel-Athletic: you could try: the-constant-named-x but +x+ is simplier.
13:02:25  Unless you want your CL programs to be undefined...
13:03:05  ok
13:03:42  There's a similar problem with special variables defined with defvar and defparameter, hence the stars.
13:05:02  is there somewhere good documentation on how to debug lisp programs?
13:05:30 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
13:05:36  Russel-Athletic: http://www.cliki.net/TutorialClispDebugger
13:06:13  actually that doesn't help me
13:06:25  Russel-Athletic: otherwise,  google gives Results 1 - 10 of about 1,400,000 for debugging in lisp.
13:06:28  i need to look at what a function is really doing which does not have an error
13:06:38  Perhaps 1.4e6 pages about lisp debugging is not enough...
13:06:49  clhs step
13:06:49  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_step.htm
13:06:57  Russel-Athletic: try STEP.
13:08:21  google gives me only gazillion pages on how to debug emacs lisp code
13:08:41  General techniques are appliable everywhere.
13:08:51 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp
13:08:57  but step seems nice :)
13:08:57  Russel-Athletic: debugging lisp programs is hard.  i mostly use TRACE, BREAK and slime.
13:08:58  Specifics you have to learn reading the manual of the implementation you use.
13:11:36  Russel-Athletic: You can also easily instrumentalize your code.  TRACE is the most basic form of it.  Have a look at TRACING, TRANCING-LET, TRACING-LABELS in http://darcs.informatimago.com/lisp/common-lisp/utility.lisp
13:12:00  Russel-Athletic: inserting (progn (break)) at the beginning of your function might be what you are looking for.
13:12:10  thanks
13:12:25  it will fall into step mode, just after the progn.
13:13:04  Sometimes STEP is too much work to use.  I prefer to do (defun my-fun (...) (tracing body...))
13:13:28 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp
13:13:35  This TRACING macro of mine would need a lot of care...
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13:30:40  morning
13:30:40  fusss, memo from S11001001: no; I don't even have a `start-hfsbocdb'.  For me, I install some filesystem trickery in initialize-instance :after (hfsbocdb), and set up something like a gensym counter in weblocks:initialize-webapp :before (hfsbocdb).
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14:13:14  http://groups.google.pl/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/aaaa7d44cd32ec61
14:13:17  nice
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14:15:47 -!- aumontabe is now known as abeaumont
14:16:16 *tic* needs to start using .pl versions of the web...
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14:21:02  weirdo: fun read
14:21:59 -!- Quadresce` is now known as Quadrescence
14:23:05  after upgrade to cvs slime: m-x slime  /* lots of stuff on screen */ Versions differ: 2008-12-09 (slime) vs. 2008-02-23 (swank). Continue? (y or n)
14:23:54  olejorge1b: probably: remove ~/.slime/ and start again.
14:24:26  olejorge1b: your emacs uses a version of slime newer than the one that is loaded by your lisp.  You could ensure that your lisp loads the new one too.
14:24:47  olejorge1b: although matimago probably knows better
14:24:59  usually it is because i didn't restart your emacs aftre upgrade
14:25:39  matimago: did not help
14:25:45  (sure, it can be loaded without restarting)
14:25:55  stassats`: I've restarted
14:26:21  madnificent: restart should reload slime, right?
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14:26:49  It seems to work if I choose yes, but it's a bit annoying
14:27:19  you have slime compiled?
14:27:27  olejorge1b: M-x slime does.  olejorge1b there are some incompatibilities between those two
14:28:11  stassats`: hm, I don't think so
14:28:31  I have just added the slime dir to my .emacs
14:29:02 -!- daniel__ is now known as daniel
14:29:14  olejorge1b: which lisp are you using?
14:29:20  sbcl
14:29:33  $ sbcl --version
14:29:33  SBCL 1.0.18.debian
14:30:19  remove slime from debian package, then
14:30:36  or purge it properly
14:30:57  I have removed it
14:31:04  % aptitude show slime => Version: 1:20080223-2 that is what you have
14:31:18  now that you mention it, i might not have --purge ed it
14:31:19  I believe you can put (load "/path/to/your/new/slime/swank.lisp")
14:31:36  olejorge1b: or you can load it over asdf (there is an asd in that directory too)
14:31:52  what's the word for justifying something in hindsight?
14:32:24  got it on the tip of the tongue
14:32:41  /etc/emacs/site-start.d/50slime.el # remove this maybe then?
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14:33:12  olejorge1b: it certainly wouldn't hurt
14:33:51 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp
14:36:05  that worked
14:36:17  strange apt-get remove didn't remove it..
14:36:25 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp
14:36:33  thanks for the help all :)
14:36:36  it doesn't remove configs, unless purged
14:38:11  also, don't put libraries in /etc, that's what /usr is for
14:38:46  fusss: complain to debian
14:39:00  seems purge doesn't work after the package is removed
14:39:08  that is not a library
14:40:17  emacs blongs in /usr, imo
14:40:37 davazp [n=user@158.Red-88-8-228.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp
14:40:56  and configs to /etc
14:41:28 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B8744E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"]
14:41:58  we can argue about this all day, or we can admit i'm right, already :-P
14:42:18  no, you are not!
14:43:10  there there. it's the Midwinter Sacrifice-weekend soon, let's be nice to each other.
14:43:14  there's lots of feelings about that. i'll chip in that unix is simply shitty to start with, so regardless of choice, you'll just end up with a little less shit to deal with by mere inclination. :D
14:43:25  olejorge1b: use dpgk --purge foo, if foo was already removed
14:43:46  olejorge1b: Purge doesn't work from apt-get in that case, but you can use dpkg --purge .
14:43:50  dpkg, even
14:44:10  michaelw, ths: ah, thanks
14:44:27  user stuff belongs in their ~. system stuff belongs in /etc. only the bare minimum should be system related. a good unix server would have /etc mounted under a root partition which is controlled slightly tightly than user area. patrick volkerding can teach a thing or two about unix to debian weenies.
14:44:33  michaelw: I always make that typo too :)
14:45:41  fusss: a good unix slightly doesn't have emacs
14:45:55  s/slightly/server/
14:46:18  any useful unix workstation eventually becomes a server
14:46:33 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-34-220.client.stsn.net] has quit []
14:46:34  no useful unix workstations have emacs? yes! :)
14:47:01 kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-34-220.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp
14:47:35  tic: and no vim! only ed
14:47:47  use home when home would do. /usr/local if you have to. /usr if you really need to. and / if you REALLY must.
14:49:25  stassats`, oh yeah, gimme some of that sweet line-oriented lovin'
14:49:44 -!- knobo [n=user@ti100710a080-3181.bb.online.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
14:50:00  I treat $HOME/local as people treat /usr/local.
14:50:55  tic: You run locally installed system services from there?
14:51:00  $HOME is where i keep various short files, all named a variant of "foo" or "hello"
14:51:27  ths, some of them, like my window manager, yeah.
14:51:59  fusss: and you argue about filesystem organization?
14:52:13  fusss, I have foo, foo.py, foo.lisp and foo.txt there -- all completely unrelated.
14:53:01 *stassats`* periodically purges all foo* without even looking at them
14:53:17  stassats`: i wasn't arguing, i was just being a dick :-P
14:53:50  I think file naming is the wrong way to go about the problem.  I think data should somehow be automatically categorized (yes, difficult) and then presented in a better way. hierarchical file systems don't add up.
14:54:03  i would prefer a proper configuration database (as opposed to arbitrary text files spread out all over the place, all with their own peculiar syntax and requirements) with a simple clean api to boot.
14:54:40  tic: which is why I've been waiting for about 10 years for WinFS to be released
14:54:48  The ideas put forth by Raskin et al are interesting.
14:55:05  (not very impressed by his son's prototype, though.)
14:55:19 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
14:55:27  there is a tool called Copernic, pretty much the only thing keeping my dev box on win32. blazing fast document search and indexing. i can search for a line, regexp or phrase across my hardisk and answers in a minute or less.
14:55:31  tic: i completely agree with that. the filesystem nonsense in unix is just failed abstraction hard at work. (common lisp do this /so/ much better).
14:56:10  hypno, CL and hierarchical file systems are two completely different beasts.  I think you can make something nice out of the conventional unix filesystem with enough motivation, time & symlinks.
14:56:29  mmhhh
14:56:50  reminds me of sco unix.  something nice out of a unix file system, motivation and symlinks
14:57:11  hey, you just killed my sarcasm-o-meter. :(
14:59:59  tic: well, i was of course talking in the spirit of a common lisp environment or a system. comparing those two things (filesystem and CL) directly is just stupid, yes, but i was talking about design chooices. the unix environment is /infected/ with fs-nonsense philosophy - all dynamic behaviour of the system is essentially spoiled by it.
15:02:35 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
15:04:26  Is there any specific reason why CLHS doesn't include an interface to execute commands in the OS shell?
15:04:39  hypno, maybe, I don't know enough about the design philosophy behind UNIX nor Lisp machines, but you're most likely right.
15:04:44 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp
15:04:48  vy, define "OS shell" and "execute"
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15:06:46  tic: I see, when people had recommended such a feature, others responded like you.
15:07:31  vy, then maybe that should clue you in on the problem of adding things to a specification that in some cases is not possible to adhere to?
15:08:01 *tic* wishes CPython was a CPython-2, getting spoiled by Lisp...
15:08:07  vy: CLHS was written by people whose "OS shell" was a lisp repl
15:08:41  today unix-and-windows are the common thing and including an external  command interface would be entirely reasonable
15:08:48  *when CLHS was written* it was not
15:09:35  vy: well, different systems may define it differently - to execute something in CL is very fucking far from executing something on unix. i guess you can consider the repl the CL-way to define such functionality. just because unix does it differently doesnt make it right.
15:10:20  kpreid: CLHS was basically CLtL revised by a congress under a short period of time, while facing an uncertain future and reconciling all sorts of conflicting goals. it's surprising it's even written.
15:11:06  Does CLHS standardization (X3.226-1994) not date back to 1994? If so, weren't people aware of other OSes in 1994?
15:12:09 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
15:12:30  well, you have trivial-shell now
15:12:40  you are saying the standard folks of CL was supposed to take into consideration all sorts of way to execute arbitrary code on all future systems back in 1994?
15:13:01  anyway, arguing about what clhs should have is rather futile since clhs isn't going to get revised :-)
15:13:06  fusss: didn't know that one, thanks!
15:14:00  if you want to improve OS interfaces, look at libraries or implementation features that have them and make them more commonly used
15:15:12  it'd be nice to be able to use CL somewhat transparantly with regular shells.  Allowing the piping of data etc.  It'd probably be a micro-utility
15:15:40  i think it would nicer to actually rewrite the unix stuff in cl and just use that.
15:16:38  hypno: if it were transparant, it we'd be able to rewrite them one piece at a time.  Leaving the regular unix-version as a failsafe for unimplemented stuff
15:16:45  piping arbitrary spawned processes with their own peculiar obscure syntax and parameters - let alone configurations - have never appealed to me at least.
15:17:40  now, using sexps and cl functions and objects, etc do make for an ingenious solution tho, of course..:)
15:17:58  powershell all the way -_-
15:19:16  I somewhat like the unix way of piping things around.  It feels nice to take whatever input, pipe it through a compression algorithm, encrypt it, send it, decrypt, decompress.  And it really doesn't take much work
15:20:28  accepting objects is certainly some extra check, and it may easen a lot of scripts... so perhaps it is just a good idea
15:21:06  in any case, a CL shell would be nice
15:22:03 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp
15:22:52  vy: remember that unfortunately we are stranger in a strange land.  The OSes we're using are not our home OS, that of a Lisp Machine, written in Lisp, where "exiting" means rebooting.
15:23:08 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp
15:23:26  vy: as a practical exercise, you could try: http://www.informatimago.com/linux/emacs-on-user-mode-linux.html
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15:23:46  matimago: well, that's kind of fortunate (that EXIT doesn not reboot)
15:23:49  vy: and if you have some time, do the same with clisp (and send be back the howto so I publish it).
15:24:09  cmm: would need more priviledges...
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15:32:39  sorry for asking again -- I'm wondering if AIMA's still considered a decent AI book (as an intro into the world..). There's apparently what seems to be a 3rd edition coming out for it in July '09, so I don't know if I should wait or what.
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15:34:57  sykopomp, it's decent
15:36:58  sykopomp: I suppose it really depends on what bits of so-called AI you're most interested in
15:37:02  but AI's becoming a little wide to be encapsulated within a single text, it'd be like asking for a decent intro to biology/physics :)
15:37:16  right
15:37:32  but in terms of citation and popularity of use, it's pretty alright
15:37:33  if you're more interested in learning aspects, say, there are much better intro texts
15:37:44  salex: I don't know. I want an introduction to it, to kind of explore. AI is, indeed, quite a wide thing.
15:37:54  well that's why i asked
15:37:59  I don't really know anything useful about AI, no :-\
15:38:07  if you are interested in pattern matching and machine learning
15:38:15  (which all used to be called `AI')
15:38:30  then duda and hart is probably the way to go
15:38:41  i beg to differ, mitchell would be the way to go :)
15:38:45  matching s/b classification
15:38:56  appletizer: eh, depends on background a bit
15:39:20  background?...
15:39:35 milanj [n=milan@93.86.113.29] has joined #lisp
15:39:38  but i find people do well out of duda & hart (well the new one, duda hart and stork), particularly with self study
15:39:44  sykopomp: on your background, i meant
15:40:05  mm duda and hart's useful more in image processing i'd reckon
15:40:23  salex: yeah. I don't really have a background in any of the sciences. Sort-of in linguistics. Kinda.
15:40:33  appletizer: it's skewed a bit that way for examples, sure
15:40:50  but it's really well written as an intro and a lot of the material is general
15:41:28  you've got to have some examples, and image stuff is easy to see the results.
15:41:53  sure, i have no complaints about its superficiality, it's meant to be an intro after all, same as mitchell
15:41:59  right
15:42:03  i find the latter has a broader spectrum of examples
15:42:18  ok, but i find d&h more effective for intro
15:42:27  ymmv, just my experience teaching it
15:42:28  appletizer: mitchell is a bit vague to do easy googling on. Title? :P
15:42:40  machine learning's the title
15:42:50  thanks
15:42:55  of course, it will somewhat depend what the student is interested in, too.
15:43:03  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~tom/mlbook.html <-
15:43:26  salex, concur
15:43:44  i have numerous books on ai, it's not advisable to just get one if you want to explore it a bit deeper
15:44:11  seeing you mentioned linguistics, if you're interested in the ai approaches to that, i'd recommend martin and jurafsky
15:44:23  it's pretty much the definitive text
15:44:29  oh, absolutely.  i was just suggesting an alternate starting place (from aima)
15:44:40  yeah aima's pretty darn good too :)
15:44:47  http://aima.cs.berkeley.edu/ <-
15:45:07  I'm kind of dipping my toes and trying to figure out what would be an interesting subset of AI to really dig into. All of these books sound good :)
15:45:07  http://www.cs.colorado.edu/~martin/slp.html <- martin, jurafsky
15:45:24  your point about ling. approach is good, it depends on what sykopomp wants to do really
15:45:29  how's your maths, sykopomp ?
15:45:41  well the first two would give you an overall treatment, not entirely complete, indepth or exactly up-to-date, but it's pretty much a decent start
15:45:55  and for completened: DH&S http://rii.ricoh.com/~stork/DHS.html
15:46:21  *completeness
15:46:45  salex: horrible. Absolutely horrible. I have a BA in film, and managed to stay the heck away from math for a while. Then again, I took Calc 1/2 and Discrete Math recently, so that's the highest i've done. No stats.
15:47:06  stats is the easier bit of math so no difficulty there
15:47:24  ok. well, if you want to take this stuff up with any seriousness, you're going to need a bit of stats & prob theory (basic) and a bit of linear algebra
15:47:51  salex: yeah, I'm gonna try to cover things as much as I can as I go along :)
15:47:56  d&H actually has a reasonable appendix covering most all you would want, but you might want to look at somethign a bit mroe complete in parallel
15:49:03 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp
15:49:41  (my memory of the content of 1/2 those other texts is fuzzy, i haven't used them recently --- could be the same situation)
15:49:49  hey Krystof
15:50:17 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B4BCD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp
15:50:29  thank you!
15:50:42  I'll look into all of these :)
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16:00:13  sykopomp: you can pick up good math easily, on your own. the stuff they taught us at school was formulaic and boring.
16:00:37  you went to the wrong school, fusss ;)
16:00:52  perhaps
16:01:09  otoh, you're right that typical students never have access to a `proper' math class, which is unfortuneate
16:01:18 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
16:01:27  my most enjoyable summer was spent with Principles of Mathematical Analysis, Walter Rudin's treatise. what a joy!
16:01:37  erm, typical non-math, non-physics students I should say
16:01:49  it's also quite amazing how difficult it can be to pick up math after neglecting it for years :-\
16:01:58  fusss: baby rudin is a good book
16:02:14  it's also an entirely typical book to teach analysis out of, for what it's worth
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16:02:22  *intro analysis
16:02:33  although it's a bit dated and there are now many intro options
16:03:00  sykopomp: nonono, you probably forgot the dull stuff. real pure math is not exactly information. it's an intrinsic entity, something you "get" on the spot and could never possibly forget again.
16:03:02  so what you are describing is a typical approach for a mathematicians math course, fwiw
16:03:36  fusss: I completely forgot every single detail about trigonometry, for example. (huh? what's a sin? What's this theta thing?)
16:03:37 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp
16:03:38  sykopomp: if you have a problem understanding something (mathwise), feel free to ask.  I'm not an absolute master either, but any help could be good help
16:04:26  madnificent: thanks :)
16:04:38 jkantz_ [n=jkantz@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp
16:05:09  the key point though, sykopomp, is that nobody learns math by reading about it
16:05:27  salex: what about grinding through exercises? ;p
16:05:31  it can be difficult to get started on your own too, but quite doable with decent texts so long as you work things out as you go
16:05:35  sykopomp: http://math.ucr.edu/home/baez/trig.html
16:05:36  in trigonometry, all you need are two equations, the rest of which are derivable from them
16:05:37  :)
16:05:59  sykopomp: yup, you have to do the exercises. lot's of them
16:06:08  *lots
16:07:21 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp
16:08:16  i think that the main pita with math is that very often real understanding is somewhat out of phase with practice. it takes a week or two before ideas really crystallize so to speak. i find this somewhat different from physics or chemical engineering.
16:08:26  sykopomp: the book i mentioned *constructs* complex numbers out of set theory. unfucking believable. if you can understand a Venn diagram, you can start at the first page, and 200 pages later you will be at home with any math text you ever pick up.
16:08:39  cos theta = [ e^(i.theta) + e^(-i.theta) ] / 2 and sin theta = [ e^(i.theta) - e^(-i.theta) ] / 2i <- that's all one ever need for trig
16:08:57 blitz_ [n=julian@92.116.85.51] has joined #lisp
16:09:23  fusss: which one, rudin?
16:09:26 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16AE80.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp
16:09:29  locklace: yeah
16:09:32  well that or just about anything
16:09:41  what fusss is describing is absolutely standard
16:10:01  fusss: it's ok, not all that great for learning in my opinion unless you already know the subject
16:10:03  it taught me to *how* to do math
16:10:04  one of the sorts of approaches you take to constructing number systems
16:10:26  baby rudin is a good book, but it's probably not the best thing to strike off on your own with
16:10:35 blitz__ [n=julian@92.116.85.51] has joined #lisp
16:10:42  i'd recommend lang instead
16:10:43  hypno, i concur, i think a lot of it depends on how good the teacher is, sometimes they can help you reach there faster
16:10:52  appletizer: it takes time to approciate, let alone understand, complex analysis tho. jumping on that right away will not work.
16:11:04  Lang wrote way too many books, which one? :-P
16:11:18  and as I noted, it's a bit dated.  there are a bunch of decent intro books these days
16:11:24  hypno: you don't need any complex analysis for the relation between trig and exp. look at the john baez link i posted
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16:11:49  appletizer: and "cheating" like that isnt advisable to begin with: most newbies would go nuts over the trigonometric functions all of a sudden go to infinity. :)
16:12:00  salex: i don't think its being dated is the problem, i don't see it as very dated at all, good math books hold up for a long time
16:12:06  all you need (trig & analysis) is eulers formula
16:12:07  hypno, haha
16:12:08  salex: but rudin has other problems ;)
16:12:16  locklace: the approach is a bit dated, i meant
16:12:28  it's a decent book, but as you note not necc. the best intro
16:12:41  salex: which aspect specifically do you think is dated?
16:12:47  Rudin, Munkres, Spivak and Apostol.
16:12:54  (i can think of a couple)
16:13:16  what fusss is really talking about is being introduced to how mathematicians actually think about this stuff, not the specifics of baby rudin
16:14:04  there is one book that I would absolute give it to anybody who wants to learn math. i actually *gave* my copy to someone for this purpose:
16:14:14  locklace: ah, thanks. i'll have a look at that.
16:14:34  locklace: well, i guess it really depends a bit what your full curriculum looks like
16:14:37  spivak's "calculus" is the right intro for that
16:14:43  An Introduction to Mathematical Reasoning: Numbers, Sets and Functions
16:14:48 mvatki [n=michael@c-24-23-89-19.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
16:15:16  salex: the main thing in rudin's principles that i'd consider dated is the unaccountable emphasis on riemann-stieltjes integration
16:15:21  nuff said. Real math for people who got bitten by Government Math.
16:15:21  baby rudin ties in nicely to the old sequece of rudin->rudin or royden + alfors (if you want to be careful)
16:15:28  locklace: right
16:15:52  but that sequence as a whole has emphasis on particular approach to integration etc.
16:16:00  his other book is problematic for other reasons :)
16:16:15  i don't like his approach to integration at all
16:16:36  it's both cumbersome and less powerful than it ought to be
16:16:37  alfors is actually a bitch to learn complex out of, papa rudin has some problems, royden is, well, it has nice bits and not so nice i guess
16:16:41  agreed
16:17:00  lang's "complex analysis" is a great book for that subject
16:17:07  i haven't taught any graduate analysis for a while, but i'd definitely put the emphasis differently
16:17:29  what do you guys think of Kolmogorov text? for complex analysis?
16:17:54  yep. rudin's style is also dryer than bone dust in a desert
16:18:01  clean and short. cheap dover book too. but i didn't get what's so big deal about it.
16:18:05  salex: you are a mathematician?
16:18:10  yes
16:18:11  and most of his real value is in the exercises
16:18:17 -!- _sledge_ is now known as sledge
16:18:23  although very applied these days :)
16:18:26  salex: wow cool. acacdemic or professional?
16:18:27  wow kenny delives win
16:18:32  hypno: academic
16:18:33  i lol'd
16:18:37  fusss: i'd definitely recommend lang instead
16:19:13  locklace: give me a few years
16:19:41  i was supposed to be a reformed professional, my girlfriend can't afford to have me relapse to theory :-P
16:20:35  fusss: you can read lang to her in bed. if she's the right girlfriend, it will excite her
16:20:44  haha.
16:20:52  locklace: too much xkcd
16:21:35  go on without me boys, i'm out of that ocean
16:22:29  I sold my math and CS books on amazon, 300 of them
16:22:46  anyway, sykopomp can start with spivak+lang and he'll be set
16:22:48 *fusss* goes to see if there is a way to post a link from an amazon seller account
16:22:54  locklace: roger!
16:23:49  locklace: recommend the Eccels text to him. it's new (circa 2003) and has no requirements to entry
16:26:00  fusss: 300?!
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16:26:58  madnificent: ~. my life's collection
16:27:03 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-45-124.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp
16:27:09  I get too attached to books. It's amazing how people can actually part ways with them at all.
16:27:10  madnificent: that's not a lot of texts, really, if you collect them over years.
16:27:10  sold it and fucked off to backpack for 2 years.
16:27:41  I give away text books once I've moved 'beyond' them
16:27:49  I know one (older) mathematician whose personal library runs about 5000
16:27:54  he is a bit of a pack rat though
16:27:54  and these days I reed them from the screen
16:28:01  ouch
16:28:45  fusss: "An Introduction to Mathematical Reasoning: Numbers, Sets and Functions", you consider that one better than "What is mathematics?" (Courant)?
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16:29:40  hypno: Eccels is an actual math text. Courant, IIRC is a popular reading text. Like mathematics for the Million.
16:30:35  hm, that's an interesting question: how do you tell the difference between an "actual math text" and a "popular reading text"
16:31:18  hmm. i would consider courants text quite applicable to most people who wanna study math. it is short on exercices, etc but nice in "mathematical reasoning" or "effective thought" as dijsktra would say.
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16:32:47  Krystof: just thought about it, and I find Polya's "How to solve it" to be both.
16:33:22  Krystof: if reading it properly requires doing mathematics, it's actual math. ;)
16:33:37  hypno: they would be complementary, imo.
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16:37:08  fusss, what was the name of that book?
16:37:13  locklace: so "The curious incident of the dog in the night-time" is a math text?
16:37:28  tic: An Introduction to Mathematical Reasoning: Numbers, Sets and Functions?
16:37:32 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-146-36.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp
16:37:35  Ah, thanks.
16:37:46  Krystof: don't know. does it involve proving theorems?
16:37:49  GEB: is it maths? is it popular?
16:38:18  locklace: it is children's fiction, of a form.  Worth reading
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16:38:33  agreed.
16:38:43  Krystof: cool, might have a look
16:39:35  tic: it is a very elementary text, but doesn't try to make excuses for mathematics as "useful" and "applicable"; just easy theorems and proofs with no ulterior motives.
16:39:58  fusss, sounds like a good goal.
16:40:09  tic: says the Lisper ;-)
16:40:30  i have to run off, but i do note that above was a analysis love-fest, but there's lots of other good stuff.
16:41:00  salex: yep :-)
16:41:01  fusss, as in Lisp including the kitchen sink? heh
16:41:02  one of the very first math books i read was gilbert & gilbert on modern algebra, which was nice
16:41:22  yeah, linear algebra is right up there, especially for the beginner level
16:41:38  an dthere are good lin alg books too
16:41:58  i'm sure there are nice intro discrete books, but I don't know them
16:42:02  there are reasons why I have never described myself as a mathematician
16:42:10  this conversation reminds me of several :-)
16:42:12  heh
16:42:14  I'm in stupid-mode at the moment, would the Intro to Math Reasoning be a book you can read more like, well, poetry? Or do you have to think long and hard to understand theorems, lemmas and proofs?
16:42:27  it's going to depend a bit where your interests lie
16:42:38  Krystof: I'm increasingly of the same mind, more's the pity
16:42:49  maybe I should have stayed in physics ;)
16:42:54  salex, I'd be curious to find a continuous book! ;)
16:43:00  smart ass
16:43:35 syamajala [n=syamajal@24.147.105.41] has joined #lisp
16:43:41  I have my moments. The rest of the time, like I pointed out above, I'm in stupid mode. Kinda makes up for it :)
16:44:30  salex: nooooo
16:44:45  they conjugate on the wrong side
16:45:00  "reading math as poetry".. heh, that almost constitutes a severe case of S/M-perversity.
16:45:34  hypno, you know, just admiring the beauty. like staring at eval.
16:45:51  or in terms of the general population, "criminal novels"
16:46:12  heh.
16:46:32  hypno: maths is poetry.  Like Lisp code, you can just scan over the general form of the demonstrations.
16:46:43  tic: reading maths means doing maths
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16:47:24  locklace, I think matimago just said what I meant.  Still means doing maths?
16:47:28  Perhaps math teaching should include reading and commenting theorem demonstrations.
16:47:30  i think you need a very active participation when doing math. you can not read it like any text. poetry or not, it's only by actually solving problems and proving things you actually understand anything.
16:48:06  hypno: of course. I don't mean reading the letters and the words.  Reading here means building a mental model of what is described.
16:48:08  yeah.  That's just like physics, stamp collecting or entomology
16:48:23  Building this mental model of the math objects described is already doing maths.
16:48:35  tic: what hypno said. reading maths is an active discipline, it means constantly framing your own questions and answering them with proof
16:50:00  i find it harder in math than in physics tho. the implications and abstractions are way more general and the usefulness of whatever it is you are dealing is not predefined (as in physics). math, unfortunatley, requires a shitload of hard work. :(
16:50:02  locklace, maybe I'm trying to separate applications from theory? I.e. a concept can sometimes be presented in an easy way and a difficult way.
16:50:27 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-109-137-147.cncdnh.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
16:50:29  Hello all.
16:50:32 *tic* feels exactly the opposite about physics, because he can't grasp what e.g. an eV
16:50:37  heya nyef, welcome to #maths
16:50:47  Math is hard, let's go hacking!
16:50:57 *tic* goes shopping
16:51:04  no wait, that was coding was it?
16:51:35  Yeah, I've already put together part of an object-dumper thingy for looking at the in-memory representation of objects.
16:51:59  CLOS?
16:52:16  Them too, but right now it only does fixnums and conses on sbcl.
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16:53:33  hypno: that's mainly a matter of familiarity with the field, you have to meet it on its own terms
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16:55:26  locklace: yeah, i guess. i just feel more at home in the trenches of applied physics than math tho. :)
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16:56:35  clhs delay
16:56:36  Sorry, I couldn't find anything for delay.
16:56:40  clhs pause
16:56:41  Sorry, I couldn't find anything for pause.
16:56:44  clhs sleep
16:56:44  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sleep.htm
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16:57:38  z0d: you know you can just type "clhs foo" into google, right?
16:57:59 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5098.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp
16:58:24  why google when there is emacs
16:58:57  either > irc
16:59:29  or l1sp.org/search/foo directly.
16:59:33 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
16:59:35  and specbot has private chat
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17:00:56  i took that as a polite way to steer the chan back on topic.
17:01:13  clhs return-from
17:01:13  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_ret_fr.htm
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17:03:39  stupid power spikes
17:04:50  power spikes BAD, UPS good.
17:05:10  yeah, no UPS on this machine.  building should be better than it is today
17:05:13  not my choice
17:05:47  (that'd be the machine i'm sitting in front of, not irc'ing from)
17:07:33  Hrm. The power company says that they're down to 3778 customers out.
17:07:39  And that was six hours ago.
17:08:54  that's not too bad then
17:09:00 deximer [n=deximer@pool-96-233-21-131.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
17:09:10  Yeah, we might have power by christmas at this rate!
17:10:03  As it stands, if it's not back today, we'll have had more days of no power than we'll have of christmas.
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17:11:39  hi. if '+' is an ordinary function, where can I find source code of it?
17:13:00  Depends on your implementation, though (describe '+) might tell you which file, and if you're using slime, M-. might find you the actual definition.
17:13:31  thank you
17:13:46  although when people write that + is an ordinary function, it's usually wrt the semantics of the form (+ a b).
17:14:39 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."]
17:15:07  In SBCL, it's defined in src/code/numbers.lisp, at around line 304.
17:15:34  great, the crash fsked firefox up
17:16:21  nyef: that deserved an sbcl-version-nr :) (even though I guess it hasn't changed lately)
17:16:33  Okay, I looked in 1.0.23.
17:17:11  In 1.0.13, it's at around line 303.
17:17:28  As you can tell, it varies considerably between versions.
17:17:41 -!- arquebus [n=sdf@201.160.15.70.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has left #lisp
17:17:57  Better?
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17:35:56  nyef: yes, very 1337 :P
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17:54:48 <_3b> _8david: heh, guess you didn't notice my commented out hack for getting opcode names in stack traces? (yours is nicer though
17:56:36  there's something delightfully horrible about the fact that i'll be hosting the alu wiki again after all this time.
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17:57:42 <_8david> _3b: ah, there you are.
17:57:44 <_8david> No, I didn't.  Is it the ";;(format t..." or something else?
17:57:51  nyef: do you know how hard it would be to mark generated code to know where pointers to static space are?
17:57:59  chandler pasted "-reader" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72573
17:58:17 <_3b> _8david: the ;; &aux (#:debug-name ',name)
17:58:28  minion: memo to Fare: it's MIT-licensed. See the newer, saner version at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72573
17:58:29  Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks.
17:58:30  pkhuong: Mark in what sense? At compile time, or in disassembly?
17:58:32 <_8david> _3b: oh, clever
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17:59:38  drewc: why did you stop hosting it?
17:59:38  At compile time, "just" add a little something to the assembler / VOPs to NOTE-FIXUP the references, then do something reasonable with them.
17:59:40  Oops. That was a bad version.
17:59:40 <_3b> _8david: yeah, didn't think 'clever' justified actually leaving it in though :)
18:00:26 <_8david> my hacked SBCL generated a functional swf for the first time today... with a single call to trace() in it :-)
18:00:29  nyef: nothing automagic then (nil-value makes that fairly hard, I guess)
18:00:43 <_3b> _8david: cool :)
18:00:59 <_8david> Actually, vast amounts of stupid assembly junk around that call to trace, but correctness first, optimization later, I guess.
18:01:54  madnificent: the ALU had the bright idea that they should host their own wiki, after they abandoned it to spammers and i took it over.
18:02:36  they did pretty good for about 3 years and then this mess.
18:02:52  chandler pasted "-reader" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72575
18:02:56 <_8david> ... the alu had a wiki?  ;-p
18:03:02  I started investigating using the vestigial trace-table stuff for something, but haven't gotten very far.
18:03:08  minion: memo to Fare: er, http://paste.lisp.org/display/72575
18:03:09  Remembered. I'll tell Fare when he/she/it next speaks.
18:04:07  nyef: btw, I managed to get some loop rolling going! My compiler outputs  from an unordered set of {*dst += x[k] * y[k]} statements. Unfortunately, it seems that completely rolling that loop isn't better for performance than even unrolling it completely.
18:05:27  pkhuong: Cool, though.
18:05:29 <_8david> _3b: basically, I've duct taped your avm2 assembler into an SBCL backend.  sb-assem still merrily generates x86 assembler during compilation, but selected VOPs also throw out avm2 opcodes at the same time.
18:05:42 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.122.211] has joined #lisp
18:06:47 <_8david> ... which I'm then putting into a class using (swf-defmemfun ... (%asm ,@opcodes))
18:08:00 <_3b> sounds interesting
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18:20:33  drewc: I understood from a post at planet.lisp.org that they outsourced it back then too.  Will this replace some of the posts at cliki.net?
18:22:07  _8david: does that mean we're close to sbcl on actionscript?
18:22:26 <_3b> madnificent: no actionscript involved :)
18:23:05 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp
18:23:26  oh, by bad
18:24:41 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-45-124.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp
18:26:05 <_3b> madnificent: we are working on compiling to flash vm bytecode from lisp
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18:28:00  that makes me less wrong than I thought I was.  Will it allow for an interconnection with the rest of flash too? or wil it only be lisp running in it? (which is  too!)
18:28:20  s/world/word/
18:28:52 tcr [n=tcr@p4FD3E792.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp
18:29:04 <_3b> my stuff is intended to be able to mix with normal flash code fairly easily (though if i get to adding CLOS, that might not mix as well)
18:29:20 <_3b> not sure about _8david's goals there
18:29:22 <_8david> madnificent: according to common wisdom, still 4 wizard-months away, i.e. not very close at all
18:29:56  well, congrats anyway :) It looks rather cool
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18:30:45 *_8david* isn't sure about _8david's goals either
18:31:09  Hrm... I think I made a mistake in having a separate notion of address space and type system.
18:31:33  What's a good name for an object which represents -both-?
18:31:54  madnificent: now, cliki and the alu wiki have different purposes.
18:32:03  s/now/no
18:32:24  Yeah, the purpose of the alu wiki is to attract spammers, and the purpose of cliki is to be a useful resource. ^_-
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18:32:38  something like that.
18:32:48  drewc: and the new purposes will be?
18:33:18  nyef: personally, i'd rather consolidate the two, but there are valid arguments for having the two.
18:33:40  madnificent: the purposes will not change .. didn't mean to imply that they would.
18:33:57  drewc: I haven't gotten any purposes (except from spamming) yet
18:34:25  madnificent: cliki is explicitly for free (open-source) lisp on unix-type systems.
18:34:54  The ALU has a more... encompassing topic.
18:34:58 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5098.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp
18:35:23  good to know
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18:36:24  the ALU is supposed to be for things like the RtL and the user group stuff
18:36:36 -!- chaitanya [n=chaitany@122.162.15.147] has left #lisp
18:36:39  the ALU is doing a great job on the user group stuff!
18:37:05  The ALU is for running ILC .. that's all they do/want to do/can do
18:37:22  the rest is, as usual, up to me :)
18:37:55  Note that free software in Common Lisp that only works on windows is at best tolerated on cliki.
18:38:18  well thank you drewc
18:39:08  bah .. cliki should really be the common lisp wiki, eof.
18:39:21  drewc, isn't it already? or what's CL for?
18:39:44  tic: CLiki is a Common Lisp wiki. It contains links to and resources for free software implemented in Common Lisp.
18:39:52  drewc: Well, go ahead and change the cliki content page, then. :-P
18:39:55 *tcr* is happy how sbcl's new bug tracker seems to take off. From my point of view, a clear improvement.
18:39:57  drewc, ah, emphasis on /the/?
18:40:07  tic: right yeah
18:40:25  drewc, agreed. but just for shits and giggles, let's throw cl-user.net into the mix
18:40:30  tcr: It's nice, but the number of open bugs was somewhat overwhelming yesterday.
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18:40:47  tic: i like cl-user.net, as it serves a different purpose..
18:40:55  i also never use or visit it
18:41:10  easy enough to say you like it then, heh. :)
18:41:18  fair enough :)
18:41:22  What about trendylisper.com?
18:41:25 *nyef* ducks.
18:41:30  tcr, where does the bug database live?
18:41:40  nyef, Lisp on Lines? no, wait...
18:41:48  nyef: An opportunity for fame and glory, isn't it? :)
18:42:05  Hacks and glory await!
18:42:06  (femme and gory?) *quacks*
18:42:15  tic: canonical's launchpad
18:42:16  nyef: chicksdiglisp.com!
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18:42:36  madnificent: Ah, pictures of the backyard egg production facility?
18:42:39  nyef: or better even: everyoneknowschicksdiglisp.com
18:42:55  nyef: with a lisp backend, ofcourse
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18:46:07  tcr, thanks.
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18:51:27  Hey, would it be useful to be able to inspect the heap spaces of an SBCL core on-disk?
18:51:33 <_8david> FWIW, it used to be "... free software implemented in Common Lisp and available on Unix-like systems" until some win32 fan came along
18:51:50  _8david: Yes, and the original wording is actually still on the cliki content page.
18:52:14  \o/ filter the windows stuff \o/
18:52:33 <_8david> personally I think of it as the "announce new releases" and "make asdf-install happy" wiki
18:52:49  I personally don't think it's an issue that it is there.  It isn't too much info yet, so the windows-part doesn't bother me
18:53:06 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp
18:53:19  How does creating jump tables for switch statements work?
18:53:27 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0DADC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out]
18:53:33  I mean how can it be deduced by a compiler
18:53:56  (Would it be useful to be able to have SBCL dump a postmortem image if it crashes, and be able to inspect the heap spaces of the resulting file?)
18:54:03  tcr: Heuristically?
18:54:10  I can see it being easy for enumerations
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18:55:59  You have some set of possible values for the switch statement, and there's an upper and lower bound for the set...
18:56:26  Which allows you to compute the population density of the range.
18:56:36  So you can decide if it's worth using a jump table or not.
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18:56:57 <_8david> nyef: hey, we discussed that at ECLM 2006
18:57:15  _8david: What, post-mortem images?
18:58:07 b4| [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp
18:58:08 <_8david> Yeah, someone was interested in it.  Don't recall who, but there was a lively discussion.   antifuchs, jsnell, ....  I don't know.  Too many people. :-)
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18:58:31  hmm in case anyone is familiar with the topic, why was SBCL thread support built around Linux internal threading primitives instead of the portable POSIX interface?
18:58:32  Well, I've got the basic framework for being able to look at the heap data.
18:58:35 -!- asdfasdfasdf is now known as b4
18:58:47  i.e. was there a particular defficiency of the pthread API preventing it
18:58:58  phadthai: Because LinuxThreads was an -awful- implementation.
18:58:59  s/defficiency/difficiency/
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18:59:13  Note that we actually -do- use pthreads these days.
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18:59:14  nyef: that's true... other OSs had decent implementations though
18:59:20  oh
18:59:22  nice to know
18:59:34  Except on platforms where pthreads suck or aren't available.
19:00:08  and it doesn't depend on non-posix functionality anymore?
19:00:14  Sure it does!
19:00:17 -!- lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
19:00:24  Depending on the platform.
19:00:54  x86 SBCL stores its TLS data in the FS segment, requiring some LDT work, etc.
19:01:02  hmm ok
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19:01:26  phadthai: SBCL is generally unsupported.
19:01:38 dabr [n=damian@174-234.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp
19:01:44  ASau: what do you mean?
19:01:59  I've been considering fixing it to support threads on netbsd but didn't seriously look into it yet
19:02:08  phadthai: I mean what I say. I don't see any sign of Buller's work.
19:02:31  phadthai: and I don't have time nor will to work on it.
19:02:54  yes I do realize I'll have to work on it myself if I want it :)
19:02:57  I don't mind if you take it, though :)
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19:11:40  nyef: is the ldt/tls stuff so platform specific as to require system specific code? (i am not sure how much of the low-level stuff posix includes)
19:12:18  hypno: Yes, system-specific. For Win32, there's no real API for it, either, so an alternate method was required.
19:12:28  Scaring up a GPR was not easy.
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19:12:37  ah, ok, but excluding windows.
19:13:01  Right, there's no real standard for LDT access functions.
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19:13:34  And, of course, on all other threaded targets, we just use a GPR to point to the thread block, no LDT hacking needed.
19:13:36 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit []
19:13:55  ok. i was thinking ecl seems to have got threads working on most platforms and so the extra functionality was in posix, but just not used by sbcl.
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19:14:21  Today's hacking output, if anybody cares: http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/article-drafts/object-memory-dumper.txt
19:14:23 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-78e133397624e4c6] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
19:14:42  It -really- depends on the tradeoffs made by the implementor.
19:15:24  phadthai: cmucl green threads works on netbsd tho. even massive amounts. :)
19:15:24 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp
19:15:54  Heh. But those are -green- threads. Wouldn't you rather have a veteran implementation? ^_-
19:17:10  well, i would preferably have both. *g*
19:17:38 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp
19:17:44  but no, if it's a chooice about one to the exclusion to the other, then i would prefer real kernel smp threads.
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19:24:21  hypno: no need for green threads though in my case, since I could use single process with non-blocking I/O instead...
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19:24:47  the multithreading would be to allow SMP without needing a pool of forked processes
19:25:00  yeah.
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19:25:10  isnt there problems or issues with serve-event tho?
19:25:19 lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp
19:25:29  or are you talking about IOlib or some other ffi-magic?
19:25:34  quite possibly, I've not used multithreaded lisp yet :)
19:26:14  ah for non-blocking?  yes either via custom ffi over posix non-blocking syscalls or via an existing one
19:28:17  if you didnt know, serve-event is an existing one. it's a handler dispatcher based on select() or somesuch i think. it ships with sbcl, cmucl, etc by default.
19:28:36  yes I've read about it a bit, I didn't try that either so far however
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19:29:08  serve-event has its drawbacks, but its primary advantage to me is that I'm reasonably familiar with it.
19:29:17  I've used C with libevent or kqueue for such before
19:29:22  what are the drawbacks?
19:29:57  phadthai: I believe IOlib supports kqueue, among others.
19:29:59  You know... we could do green threads with SBCL with fairly little difficulty these days.
19:30:11  phadthai: yeah, a lispified interface to kqueue is of course very nice. you still need offload to other procs for blocking ffi calls tho. :/
19:30:13  luis: if it's a libevent wrapper it definitely does
19:30:21  phadthai: it isn't
19:30:25  ah ok
19:30:32  No silly unbind/rebind junk, just switch stacks, reload FS, and go.
19:30:56  nyef: how lightweight would they be?
19:31:24  the cmucl stuff is very lightweight. forking off 100.000 procs doesnt even hit ram usage much. :D
19:31:25  You'd still have to allocate the LDT selector on x86, and you'd be paying the full cost of allocating the lisp thread structure.
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19:32:23  The thread structure is overweight and should be dynamically sized -anyway-.
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19:33:26  nyef: what kind of scheduling could it use?
19:33:52  hopefully not just on I/O blocks like serve-event?
19:33:55  luis: The same serve-event-based hook as CMUCL.
19:34:18  nhe
19:34:30  You -could- do something with SIGALARM as well, I guess.
19:35:04  Take it on an altstack, bounce it back to the main stack and force a call to the scheduler there.
19:35:29  could it effectively work with blocking ffi as well?
19:35:42  (without rewriting the standard CL-subset or alternatives)
19:35:54  Um. No.
19:36:06  Well, probably-not, anyway.
19:36:25  ok. i take it languages like Io or Erlang provide all their i/o-primitives as non-blocking then? even the ffi?
19:36:35  That said, sigalarm + stack switch, might make it work.
19:37:03  As long as you automatically resume the interrupted syscall when you switch back...
19:37:33  Yeah, yeah. PCLSRing.
19:37:37  nyef: Is there any gengc-specificness to this, or could it equally provide green threads on cheneygc platforms?
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19:38:16  chandler: Have to not interrupt a thread in a dangerous state, but if you avoid the SIGALARM bit and just hook serve-event, it should work Just Fine on cheneygc.
19:38:51  For even more granularity, you could hook the garbage collector too. As long as you're consing, you get a reasonably good simulation of preemptive threading.
19:39:01  Yeah, that too.
19:39:27  And hey, no gc-stop-the-world silliness.
19:39:36  collect when I/O blocks?
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19:40:04  Oh! And you -can't- sigalarm at a bad time, because of pseudo-atomic.
19:40:17  Yay for p-a, I guess.
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19:41:10  chandler: why do you think that would be a good idea?
19:41:17  You run risks with FFI, though, if you use SIGALARM to preempt ALIEN code.
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19:41:37  luis: For those platforms where gencgc doesn't work properly, I'd guess.
19:41:51  luis: Think what would be a good idea? Switching threads when gc is triggered?
19:42:03  I'm not sure what you meant by "collect when I/O blocks".
19:42:22  nyef: please no signals :(
19:42:24  chandler: I guess I misunderstood what you meant.
19:42:45  chandler: what did you mean by hooking the GC?
19:43:04  locklace: Yeah, asynchronous signals are scary. But when you need 'em, you need 'em.
19:44:17  it's just a bad dark posix corner. very unreliable
19:44:24  Yeah, and?
19:44:28  luis: Adding a context switch hook in the garbage collector, so that consing (sometimes?) triggers a context switch amongst the set of green threads.
19:44:30  You think I don't know this?
19:44:37  locklace: Welcome to SBCL hacking, mate.
19:45:09  thanks, where's the t-shirt?
19:45:11  SBCL works on individual operating systems, not POSIX :-)
19:45:13  chandler: oh, ok. That sounds good. I thought you meant one should trigger the GC when the program is blocked on I/O.
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19:45:50  Sounds like a good time to get some incremental GC work done, though.
19:46:05  luis: No, but that's actually not a half bad idea if you have an incremental GC.
19:46:09  (what nyef said)
19:46:32  is an incremental GC a good idea these days?
19:46:43  Why not just go for a concurrent GC?
19:47:24  (other than, "it's hard" :-)
19:47:27  Because none of the good concurrent GC models I've seen will work on Win32?
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19:47:50  nyef: that's not a very compelling argument ;)
19:47:53  It depends on whether you value correctness or performance. I am reasonably sure that I could write a purports-to-be-correct incremental GC. I can't say the same about a concurrent collector...
19:48:12  (Goddamned -useless- memory manager. Don't get me wrong, I love MEM_RESERVE, but the restrictions on file mappings... Ugh.)
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19:53:44 *nyef* wonders what he should hack on next.
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19:54:03  green threads sounds cool :)
19:54:23 decafbad [n=mehmet@88.232.68.232] has joined #lisp
19:54:29  To you maybe. :-P
19:54:41  nyef: a concurrent garbage collector ^_^
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19:54:56  fe[nl]ix: Didn't I just say that I couldn't make any of the models work on Win32?
19:55:13  (Yes, that's a serious target for me, even if I don't actually hack on it these days.)
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19:55:30  nyef: make a new model
19:55:34  nyef: out of curiosity, what models did you find interesting?
19:55:37  make history
19:55:49  minion: chant!
19:55:49  MORE GRANULARITY
19:55:59  hm.
19:56:41  luis: Um... I forget? I looked at two or three, but it was a while ago.
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20:03:10  luis: what green threads?
20:03:11  Fare, memo from chandler: it's MIT-licensed. See the newer, saner version at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72573
20:03:11  Fare, memo from chandler: er, http://paste.lisp.org/display/72575
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20:04:11  Fare: The topic of threading models came up recently, and I suggested that SBCL could do green threads fairly easily based on the sb-threads work, and not have the silly unbind/rebind stuff that the CMUCL threads stuff does.
20:04:24  So the idea got tossed around a bit.
20:04:48  For me, it's one of those things that I see clearly how to get started on doing, but don't actually care about doing.
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20:05:29  what does this unbind/rebind stuff mean? what effect would it have on the threads or system?
20:05:35  nyef: what kind of green threads would that be? a simple timer-based one? that would interrupt at any point that isn't protected by pseudo-atomic or without-interrupt, then switch state?
20:05:56  Fare: My original opener was hooking serve-event.
20:06:11  Then we discussed SIGALARM, and possibly switching during GC.
20:06:22  And using green threads on cheneygc systems.
20:06:39  Hrm.
20:06:49  No sigfd?
20:07:01 *Fare* is reminded of using green threads on top of arnesi's call/cc on top the iolib event loop in philip-jose.
20:07:21  Fare:  how did it work out?
20:07:24  nyef, sigfd can be kind of faked with a sighandler and a pipe.
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20:07:29  pstickne, very well!
20:07:54  Fare: Yeah, but...
20:08:04  Fare:  did the green threads still block across system IO?
20:08:09  you have reliable sigfd in linux 2.6.26 and later
20:08:16  nyef: but?
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20:08:41  pstickne, not if you did IO through IOLib's event loop.
20:09:04  I'm running 2.6.26-rc6, and I'm looking through the sources for 2.6.28-rc7, and I can't -find- them.
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20:11:26  nyef: they are called signalfd
20:11:34  Well, that'd do it.
20:11:38  in fs/signalfd.c and kernel/signal.c
20:11:41  Thank you.
20:11:49  There's even a man page by that name!
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20:15:55  Going back a couple topics, the problem with concurrent GC is that the collector needs to be able to set a page to not be readable by mutator threads, but still be able to read it itself. And that's typically done by double-mapping the page and changing the permissions on one of the copies.
20:16:07  And there's only two ways to double-map a page on windows.
20:16:33  One of them causes the page to be permanently locked in RAM, and the other doesn't allow you to change the permissions.
20:16:52  sounds fun.
20:17:11 <_3b> would blocking writes and copying it instead of double mapping work?
20:17:20  how many pages do you need to lock at once?
20:17:47  you probably don't want to thrash too much while you're GCing, anyway
20:18:03  _3b: Might, but you'd be paying for the extra copy...
20:18:07  nyef: does "permanently" last beyond the double-mapping?
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20:18:18  Fare: It's not a matter of need, it's a matter of semantics over the whole heap space.
20:18:39  "permanently" lasts from when you first allocate the page to when you're finally done with it.
20:19:15  hum. sucks.
20:19:22  Yah.
20:19:24 <_3b> nyef: true, might work in the 'more cores than we know what to do with' future everyone foresees though :) (assuming it doesn't kill the memory subsystem instead)
20:19:40  _3b: I think that future is not a win32 future.
20:20:10  nyef: does win64 have that limitation as well?
20:20:27  luis: Don't know; don't have a win64 box.
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20:24:37  Why did sigfd come up?
20:24:45 *luis* is way too chatty today
20:24:52  Because I'm considering it in the context of ptrace.
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20:26:12  Um. And maybe USB device disconnect notifications for lh-usb.
20:26:54  nyef: what do you think of IOLib?
20:27:03  I think I still haven't looked at it.
20:27:04 <_3b> how similar is bluetooth to usb on linux? (or how hard would it be to add to lh-usb)
20:27:07  I'd like signalfd in iolib...
20:27:22  Bluetooth, huh?
20:27:32  this signalfd thing is a linux specific feature tho?
20:28:23  hypno: Yeah, but it's emulatable with a signal handler and a pipe, and I'd need to do something else for the windows equivalent of ptrace -anyway-...,
20:30:33  _3b: I don't know how similar bluetooth is. I'd be more likely to have lh-bluetooth or something for that anyway, though.
20:31:09 <_3b> nyef: yeah, that would probably make more sense
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20:33:45  I could possibly do something with the bluetooth stuff at some point.
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20:34:19  Any particular reason you're interested?
20:34:23 <_3b> not something i have any direct use for, was just curious
20:34:58  Just looking through the headers tells me that bluetooth is a bit more complex than usb was.
20:35:38 <_3b> ah, thats no fun
20:35:40  I was thinking maybe FUSE bindings at some point.
20:36:15  *cough*CFFI*cough*
20:37:39  Bah.
20:38:18  I don't -like- FFI, and I certainly don't use any FFI other than SB-ALIEN.
20:38:58  I do, however, like talking to the kernel.
20:38:58 <_3b> cffi obviouslty needs an sb-alien compat layer then :)
20:39:06  oh well, sb-alien-compat has been in the TODO list for a while
20:39:53  lh-usb is defined primarily in terms of sb-unix:unix-ioctl.
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20:40:44  Hi all. Is there a "simple" markup language implemented in lisp besides cl-markdown?
20:42:41  mogunus: gigamonkey-markup is what i use
20:44:53  drewc: hmm, that looks decent
20:45:10  Apparently there's also a textile implementation in CL.
20:45:27  (I need something for non-technial users to write blog posts in)
20:45:34 bit` [n=bit@c-67-171-211-187.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
20:46:05  mogunus: Why not embed a WYSIWYG editor control?
20:46:13  what he said ^
20:46:24 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp
20:46:27  i've used those and users love them
20:46:37 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp
20:46:40  I think nontechnical users probably want to just hit a button to boldify text, f'rexample.
20:47:01  hi. in the SBCL sources, there's a thing called a XEP. it seems like ABCL has such a thing too. What does XEP stand for?
20:47:05  actually having line breaks break lines is nice as well.
20:47:10  chandler, how about both, though?
20:47:13  ehu`: eXternal Entry Point.
20:47:24  thanks!
20:47:25  chandler, I like typing **foo** for strong, but having a button can also be useful.
20:47:41  tic: I hardly think you're a nontechnical user, though.
20:47:42  Ugh. Those things need to use javascript, right?
20:47:44  does that have to do with ffi?
20:47:52  mogunus: Water under the bridge at this point.
20:48:00  ehu`: Also see the TLA file in the sbcl sources.
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20:48:06 <_3b> nyef: would running gc in a separate process instead of a thread make any difference for the page locking stuff?
20:48:25  ehu`: No, it has more to do with the normal function calling convention.
20:48:26  chandler, I am, when I wear that hat.  Just saying they needn't be excllusive
20:48:27 *ehu`* heads off to the source tree
20:49:01 fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp
20:49:06  I'm trying to build something RESTful and lightweight. This might be really misguided.
20:49:32  _3b: That's one of those frightening questions.  The ones where the very -idea- of doing something a certain way strikes fear into the hearts of implementors.
20:49:43  tic: You have more confidence in the plasticity of your point of view than I do. I don't think it's possible to truly un-know things, so while I can guess at what nontechnical users like I can't ever say for certain.
20:50:16 <_3b> nyef: yeah, that was more or less the second question :)
20:50:50  mogunus: not sure what you need really, but why not use a couple of reader-macros, say *foo* for bold and /foo/ for italic and something else for underscore and then generate latex output and pdfify from there?
20:50:50  I've read things about how desktop-aping in web applications makes nontechnial users uneasy and messes with their expectations.
20:51:16  chandler: but, like you, I have *no* idea whether that is true or not
20:51:19  hypno: I don't think most blogs use PDF output.
20:51:26  _3b: Just think: If you tried that on a posixoid system, you'd be dealing with ptrace. Now realize that ptrace has reasonably friendly semantics with regards to receiving events compared to WaitForDebugEvent()...
20:51:32  chandler, yes, you're probably right.  that is indeed a problem.  It's when I "got" Lisp I no longer could remember what I thought was difficult.
20:51:49  _3b: how can you run the GC in a second process?
20:52:32  hypno: that would be the idea with a simplified markup language. Users enter the language in the form, and then it gets passed through the parser into HTML.
20:52:39  luis: Well, there are cross-process functions for manipulating virtual memory mapping...
20:52:59  The problem is that doing it that way usually only makes things worse.
20:53:04  on Linux too?
20:53:05  mogunus: That's where drewc's experience (that users love GUI editors) comes in.
20:53:20  I didn't even think about a javascript WYSIWYG thing, though. My own distaste for that sort of thing got in the way.
20:53:26 *mogunus* nods
20:53:29  mogunus: I've heard good things from other people who have deployed FCKeditor too.
20:53:32  I don't know about on Linux, but we don't really have the problem there, as we can do sane things with mmap()ed files and mprotect().
20:54:07  mogunus: I hate to say it, but if you want to do something for non-technical users on a blog, you should set up a way for them to edit in MS Word,
20:54:09  i had luck with FCKeditor
20:54:37  rpg: i've done that too.. users prefer the online editor in my experience
20:54:53  mogunus: That's what all of our non-technical people use, and none of them manages to make other than a total hash of wiki markup.
20:54:54  rpg: Have you used FCKeditor? Most people wouldn't notice the difference between it and an embedded Word widget, honestly.
20:54:57 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp
20:54:58  See http://www.fckeditor.net/demo
20:55:18  chandler: I'm looking at that right now.
20:55:18 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp
20:55:24  Looks very reasonable.
20:55:46  chandler: I am not really the right person to ask, since I am a retrograde latex-using troll, but my colleagues (who are psychologists) would rather just use word and somehow paste into the wiki  (or just push an "upload" button).
20:55:55  Just remember - if you use one of these GUI things, don't trust the restrictions you put in the editor. You still need to validate the HTML on the server side, lest ye become the victim of nasty cross-site scripting attacks via HTML injection.
20:56:33  i used it for a the CMS part of a shopping cart site.. the users loved it.
20:56:52  i didn't validate the html though .. but the users internal.
20:56:57  chandler: that's actually part of why I wanted to use a simplified markup language implemented in lisp. easier ti inspect for icky things.
20:57:07  rpg: FCKeditor has an Office 2003 skin, maybe that's enough?
20:57:46  possibly.  This is my despair over our company's failure to successfully use a wiki speaking...
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20:59:06 *tic* is happy he is at a tech-company
21:00:16 netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has joined #lisp
21:00:21  I suppose I can use parenscript to stick FCKeditor in?
21:01:16 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-28-233.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp
21:02:24  If you like using parenscript, I guess...
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21:07:54  Or can I just generate the necessary HTML with cl-who?
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21:09:32  Yes, that's probably a better way to do it.
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21:12:06  That's exciting.
21:13:47  I'll provide markdown or textile to gracefully degrade.
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21:22:43  is anyone in here using slime with clbuild?
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21:32:59  tic: I am also at a tech company, but my colleagues are not all computer scientists.
21:33:15  Actually, I work with many Ph.D.s in computer science who detest wikis.
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21:33:26  Ah. Heh.
21:33:33  chandler, thanks!
21:33:56  chandler, are you going to make an official release out of it?
21:34:16 -!- prip is now known as prip_
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21:34:33  may I include it in some git repo I write someday to demonstrate syntax change and how to use it with xcvb?
21:36:02  I'd like a very hackable piece of software for searching and filtering my mail. Does anything like that exist right now?
21:36:20  mogunus: Maybe something built around mel-base?
21:36:35  #!/bin/sh -- it's very hackable, and can be made to filter your mail.
21:37:21  If you're going to be that way about it, you might as well recommend using microsoft Excel...
21:37:58  Hm, yeah, mel-base seems to be pretty much what I am looking for.
21:38:02  When I spoke with Dan Ingalls the other day, he recounted writing an English-to-Piglatin translater as a Lotus 1-2-3 spreadsheet.
21:38:23  Has somebody already done that?
21:38:38 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp
21:38:55  anyone around Montreal around here?
21:39:05 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
21:39:21  Im live in Montreal atm
21:39:29  -m
21:39:48  I'm coming for a week after gravmas
21:40:02  I'd like to have a lisper party at some point
21:40:21  Wow. No adsense filtering by topic. That is... suck.
21:40:24  If not, I'll implement the text/indexing stuff myself on top of mel-base, and maybe appropriate an interface from stamp.
21:40:31  you should write the montreal's scheme user group mailing list :)
21:41:39  (actually I dont know if they have a mailing list, but they have meetings regularly)
21:42:40  Although I'd really like a gnus-esque interface.
21:42:58  Could climacs do that, at this point?
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21:44:10  mogunus: Wouldn't that be more of an ESA-type thing?
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21:44:46  ksergio, they do, and I did, but was filtered 'cause unsubscribed
21:44:52 *Fare* subscribes and posts again!
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21:46:11  nyef: esa?
21:46:16  http://common-lisp.net/project/esa/ gives me a 404
21:46:34  emacs-style-applications, or something like that.
21:47:44  ooo, nice
21:48:07  If I have a lot of git repos to publish, should I make an umbrella project on cl.net?
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22:04:00 *ksergio* has a look at Fare's anarchocapitalist blog :P
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22:06:15  anyone german here who can help me? please join #lisp.de
22:06:18  Fare: I'm also in Montreal
22:06:35  a local lisper event would be a nice thing indeed
22:06:51 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit ["Leaving"]
22:07:35  I just sent mail to the mslug mailing-list: https://webmail.iro.umontreal.ca/mailman/listinfo/mslug
22:08:11  seelenquell__, can you speak english?
22:08:35 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-105-188.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
22:08:39  hi, i am a lisp beginner, please why doesn'
22:08:47  t my hello world output anything:
22:08:49  http://drop.io/lispscript
22:08:52  no, im very bad in english
22:09:48  use google translator
22:10:05  kenyon: flush the output or force it with a newline
22:10:47 *tic* was not aware of write-line
22:10:47  kenyon: cl-launch -ip '"Hello world."'
22:11:41  i will try it
22:12:44  kenyon: --script was added only in 1.0.22, your version is too old
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22:13:43  thank you - i will install a newer version and do some more research
22:13:58  	I am looking for a random function to request always returns the same values. anybody knows a package that can be something?
22:14:56 *rpg* preapologizes for question
22:15:12  Does anyone have an example of a call to find-method where the qualifiers argument is not NIL?
22:15:26  I'm trying to find a :before method....
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22:16:54  on a setf method...
22:17:07  (find-method #'shared-initialize '(:before) (list (find-class 'standard-generic-function) (find-class t)))
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22:19:01  And, for the SETF part: (find-method #'(setf foo) '(:before) (list (find-class 'integer)))
22:19:05  Krystof: Many thanks.  My actual mistake was that I forgot that I had to call find-class on T as well as my other classes.
22:19:18  I was doing (list T
22:19:25  (find-class 'foo))
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22:30:05  seelenquell__, look at the CLHS for random-state and random
22:31:12 -!- spec[lisp] is now known as mrSpec
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22:33:31  I've just seen random-state but the function may seem to me only twice deliver the same pay if I save it to a file and load it after restart
22:33:54  Fare: I don't think it's really worth an official release, do you? If you'd like to include it in your git repo, that sounds like a decent place for it to live.
22:35:27  seelenquell__: you could also PRINT it to a string and read it back from there to reconstitute it.
22:36:03  Or just save one. See http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/v_rnd_st.htm#STrandom-stateST for an example.
22:38:19  gigamonkey pasted "Reusing a random-state" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72591
22:40:00  does it even after his reboot of the system?
22:40:23  chandler, yes, I think it would be the very perfect example for how to use syntax extensions.
22:40:24  seelenquell__: if you've saved to a file and then reloaded it, it should.
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22:41:34  although I think I'd do it slightly differently -- I'd peek-char to see if the next char is terminating, or something.
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22:42:51  maybe that's not standard, and your way is the only way -- even then, I'd compare the symbol with (read-from-string "\lambda") -- so I don't require the current package to (:use lambda-reader)
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23:01:24  how can i initialize a random state object with parameters?
23:03:32 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp
23:04:24  clhs make-random-state
23:04:25  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_rnd.htm
23:04:45  Anything beyond that is non-standard.
23:07:21  ^^
23:07:41  and with fixed values?
23:09:10  Use your own random?]
23:09:36 manpages_rule [i=92731f8f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bda1b07aec724eff] has joined #lisp
23:10:13  what do lispers think of haskell?
23:11:35  I suspect opinion varies widely
23:11:43  i dont know what you mean, nyef
23:12:08  manpages_rule: definitely worth learning
23:12:32  I don't know about haskell, but I'm hungry, and curry sounds good right about now.
23:12:33  anything that lets you think about problems differently is worth learning
23:12:46  Ooooh, curry does sound good
23:13:42 hh_fuu [n=h@p5B17D95F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp
23:15:40 beach [n=user@203.210.248.212] has joined #lisp
23:15:46  Good morning.
23:15:56  Hello beach.
23:17:46 *beach* thinks manpages_rule is gavino
23:17:53 aszarsha1 [n=Aszarsha@69.171.146.51] has joined #lisp
23:18:13  Using actual technology to get aruond the obviousness of his usual appearance?
23:20:18 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.113.29] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
23:21:05  manpages_rule, there's liskell
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23:27:19 schasi [n=schasi@p54A27994.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp
23:27:55  hey beach
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23:30:08  beach: quoi de neuf?
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23:35:57  Fare: Not much.  Still on vacation.  I am processing email so that it won't accumulate.
23:36:21  One of these days, I'll get bored and start doing some Lisp hacking.
23:38:05  I think tomorrow's project might be an initial exploration of ptrace().
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23:41:02  Morning beach.
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23:44:45  hey gigamonkey
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23:46:49  beach: you'll be happy to know Knuth doesn't "consider that [he has] great talent for language design." (Said in the context of TeX.)
23:47:05  anyone with the knowhow on lambda list congruence wrt generic functions and methods, I would appreciate a look over `congruent-lambda-expression' at the bottom of http://www.bitbucket.org/S11001001/weblocks-dev/src/53497fd29f7d/src/utils/misc.lisp
23:47:23  (ISTR you were one of the people I've heard complaining about TeX as a language.
23:47:24  )
23:47:37  Merry Xmas everybody ;) and Good night!
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23:48:03  mrSpec: Sleep well.
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23:53:14  gigamonkey: Good to know I guess.
23:53:23  gigamonkey: and yes, I was one of them.
23:53:54  I also especially like a section I have where he smacks down Dijkstra.
23:54:11  As far as Knuth can ever by said to "smack down" anyone.
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23:56:30  paul graham said that lisp can absorb the features of any other language
23:56:34  is that practical?
23:57:04  manpages_rule: depends what you mean by "absorb", "features", and "practical".
23:57:19  manpages_rule: Please learn to participate in a discussion, rather than just throwing out questions that don't have an answer.
23:57:20  hm
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23:57:28  manpages_rule: or else be quiet.
23:58:00  gigamonkey: in what way did Knuth "smack down" Dijkstra?
23:59:09  gigamonkey pasted "Knuth on Dijkstra" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72594