00:00:15 He might know.. 00:00:36 i don't want one so much as i want to see what the market for them looks like 00:00:36 why not here? 00:01:07 younder: he is here under the name `lispm' 00:02:25 yes 00:02:36 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:02:46 Symbolics sells them, still 00:03:01 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:03:49 they still sell the actual machines? 00:04:00 yes 00:04:01 are they still making them, or did jhey just have plenty of stock? 00:04:08 refurbished 00:04:14 they've got a whole garage full of them ;) 00:04:16 http://www.lispmachine.net/symbolics.txt 00:04:56 though using any of the expansion-card based ones might be a bit of a pain at this point 00:05:06 customers gave them back when they no longer needed them 00:05:32 rsynott, which? 00:05:38 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C54B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:05:44 i wonder why no one packages a linux distribution that basically boots straight to emacs with thousands of extensions pre-installed 00:06:17 lispm: the mac ones 00:06:37 those are the best ones 00:06:40 mbac: sounds like a very niche product :) 00:06:50 lol, "deskside machine" 00:06:50 sounds like a lisp machine :) 00:06:54 a macivory is less of a hassle than a 36xx. there's an infinite supply of old macs, and you can still get scsi disks and monitors to attach to them. 00:06:56 lispm: getting the actual mac to use them with might be difficult at this point 00:07:01 no 00:07:17 there are plenty of them and Symbolics sells them WITH mac 00:07:24 rsynnott: harder than getting the expansion card itself? seems unlikely. 00:07:25 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 00:07:50 Somebody I know just bought a Mac + MacIvory from them 00:08:22 granted, I just searched ebay for "quadra 950" and don't see one for sale, which is a little sad 00:08:23 are people mostly buying them to play with or to replace old ones at this point, I wonder 00:08:41 yep, I'd be surprised if there are that many operational nubus macs left 00:08:54 You can use Mac II, MacIIcx, Q840, Q650, etc 00:09:27 there are many functioning Nubus macs. I have a Q950 and a few IIfx, very robust machines 00:09:50 the real problems with the old machines are: 00:09:58 the original Symbolics console 00:10:11 memory errors 00:10:19 and the old disks on the old machines 00:10:30 *hefner* gets spooky ECC errors on his macivory 00:10:34 did they use SCSI or anything? 00:10:48 the Ivory machines have SCSI 00:10:51 that, at least, should still be easy enough to replace 00:10:54 the old ones have ESDI 00:11:06 rsynott, only in theory 00:11:29 the problem is that the Symbolics machines use 1280 byte blocks on the disk 00:11:51 find SCSI disk which allow low-level formatted blocks with 1280 bytes 00:11:55 ah 00:12:18 On the MacIvory you don't have that problem, just use any regular scsi disk that works in the Mac 00:12:39 mhm 00:12:47 I have 4GB Seagate disk in my NXP1000 that allows different block sizes 00:13:00 "We can accept 00:13:03 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:03 credit card payments through the Payment Pal system with a 3% surcharge" - heh 00:13:29 'payment pal' keeping up the whole retro theme :) 00:13:42 the MacIvory is good, because you don't have the old Symbolics console and you get disks easier 00:13:45 -!- Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:12 still the memory problem on the MacIvories, but that can be repared 00:14:14 do you need an odd keyboard to use it properly? 00:14:16 repaired 00:14:42 syamajal_ [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:45 you can use a Mac Extended keyboard, useful is a three button logitech mouse 00:15:16 the original keyboard is better, but the adapter box is rare 00:15:26 I could never get a three button mouse working with mine, either. I tried two or three different ones, but maybe not the exact logitech model needed. 00:15:42 you need the right drivers 00:15:53 it tool me some experimenting, but it works 00:15:57 took 00:16:39 was there ever a common lisp for them, or just zetalisp? 00:16:43 a rare collectors item is the original OLD Symbolics mouse with the steel ball 00:16:55 it has Common Lisp 00:17:04 CLOS 00:17:06 CLIM 00:17:08 multiple varieties of common lisp, even. 00:17:10 ah, wow 00:17:21 lispm: common lisp, or 'we're working on standardizing, sort of, but it's not done yet'? 00:17:35 aka cltl-lisp 00:17:36 :P 00:18:07 CLtL1 Common Lisp, Symbolics Common Lisp and almost ANSI Common Lisp (aka FUTURE-COMMON-LISP) 00:18:27 you can use those as you like 00:18:33 MOP? :) 00:18:39 not really 00:18:57 *sykopomp* would totally be for a new-lispOS 00:19:03 and not CLOS 00:19:11 it has CLOS 00:19:18 What? 00:19:24 someone should do some research and quantify how many lisp hackers it takes to do tasks X Y Z compared to others. 00:19:47 What what? ;-) 00:19:53 it takes 10 times as many java hackers to just type it in 00:19:53 The best I've seen related to this is Norvig's little thing about hours to solve a problem vs C++/Java 00:20:00 public private static void main 00:20:06 lispm: explain, Why does a CLtl! have CLOS 00:20:30 I am a bit comfused 00:20:39 Symbolics Common Lisp has CLOS 00:20:41 what's the function of the ! in that question? 00:20:53 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:58 wait, I thought SCL had new flavors 00:21:01 its above the 1 sorry 00:21:03 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:21:10 hefner clos:defmethod 00:21:37 well, that's cheating. 00:21:50 as I mentioned, Genera hosts several versions of CL in one image 00:22:06 anyway, the future-common-lisp dialect has CLOS. 00:22:07 lispm: awesome. 00:22:19 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:22:54 I think all in all it has something like five versions of Common Lisp 00:23:47 lispm: it's kinda neat that it can host several versions. This sounds like it would be a nice idea if a new OS came along. 00:24:30 it was necessary because CL changed over time 00:24:43 but know? ;-) 00:25:30 if you see a syntax property in the first line of Lisp programs, then that's what Genera uses 00:26:25 carbocalm [i=carbocal@69-196-171-169.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 00:26:36 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 00:27:22 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-053-200.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:42 and, even on a lisp machine, were all the esoteric pathname things useful? :) 00:30:05 only there 00:30:40 -!- MrTapir [n=gds@81.169.133.125] has quit ["blubb"] 00:30:55 because pathnames were really flavors and it has a 'generic network' system that connected the machine to all kinds of systems 00:31:35 VAX was still used, Mac, Windows, Unix, etc. 00:32:37 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 00:33:11 plus it had its own filesystem 00:35:35 On a MacIvory you can for example use something like host:foo:bar:baz.lisp to access a file in the HFS file system 00:36:08 and /foo/bar.lisp on a NFS mounted FS 00:36:09 yeah, great fun using three or four different pathname syntaxes on one machine. 00:36:26 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-223.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:33 right, there logical pathnames come into play ;-) 00:36:36 well, pathname was actually helpful there, I suppose :) 00:36:43 So who are the people running the ALU wiki? 00:38:06 also local pathnames really had types, device, host and version components 00:38:29 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-050-073.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:39 I really miss versions, sigh 00:39:08 you could probably produce a hideous SVN backend for sbcl if sufficiently motivated :) 00:39:30 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 00:39:32 s/SVN/GIT 00:39:34 *hefner* gave in and put a project in git today 00:39:49 and how does it feel? 00:39:58 hefner: welcome to the dark side. 00:40:18 *sykopomp* is considering trying to put a project on darcs, but imagines darcs is simply inferior, since he doesn't know anything good about it. 00:40:30 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 00:40:36 the only good thing I can say about git is that you can, with minimal pain, stick the repository on any old web server and clone it over http 00:40:52 hefner: You mentioned you were playing Fallout, right? I've been cheating on the hacking puzzles with a script I wrote in Lisp. 00:41:29 can you write back to the repository over HTTP? 00:41:32 ahaas: I have been, yeah. The hacking puzzles are usually easy, but how well does your script work? 00:41:38 lispm: no, you need ssh for that. 00:42:06 hefner: It works great. I haven't missed one, yet. 00:42:18 git seems to be the future. if nothing else, you can always roll your own subversion-like VCS using git as the backing store. 00:42:18 hefner: what are the bad things? 00:42:20 different protocols for writing and reading? 00:42:24 sounds... infuriating 00:42:37 hefner: funny, I remember having plenty of trouble doing that. darcs put worked much better in my experience. 00:43:03 luis: that might be, but I'm not switching to darcs, it's just a nice feature. 00:43:19 hefner: But, I'm not too far in, so I'm hoping they'll get harder. 00:43:37 rsynnott: presumably the general public doesn't have ssh access to the machine. I'm sure you could clone over ssh too, if you wanted. 00:44:18 what's so nice about darcs, by the way? 00:44:47 z0d: I'm not sure, other than being pointlessly weird and hard to use. Next time I get a repository wedged in an odd state, or it eats all my source code, I'll let you know. 00:45:19 sykopomp: going through a changeset interactively, you can specify which parts you want to be committed and which you do not 00:45:35 I miss that about darcs. 00:46:10 tcr: it records every single line change individually? 00:46:28 sykopomp: No, every hunk 00:46:29 ahaas: my impression was that the puzzle actually got easier as the words got longer. 00:47:00 sykopomp: With changeset I didn't mean a committed changeset, but the unrecorded changes made to the repository. 00:47:00 tcr: Hm. 00:47:09 ah 00:47:37 sykopomp: You asked interactivelly hunked-wise to either stuff the hunk into the changeset to be recorded, or not 00:47:40 +are 00:47:47 I've grown really fond of git's quick branching stuff... but that sounds quite nice :) 00:48:05 git can do interactive hunk-wide stuff too 00:48:12 wise* 00:48:20 Perhaps. In darcs it works out of the box. 00:48:36 in git too 00:48:43 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1176023246.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 00:48:54 z0d: what's the difference then? 00:48:55 What's the command? 00:49:10 sykopomp: darcs is easier to use IMO 00:49:12 I've only ever really used git, so I have a terrible base of comparison to most other things. 00:49:13 tcr: git citool, for instance. 00:49:41 tcr: git-add -p AFAIR 00:50:25 hefner: I wouldn't be surprised if it's broken in that respect. To make it harder, they need more words w/ less overlap between them, but they only have so much space. 00:50:28 wiki-trolling is amusing sometimes 00:50:51 from the WP article on mercurial: "For repository access via a network, Mercurial uses an efficient[citation needed], HTTP-based protocol ..." 00:51:42 what is wrong with it? 00:51:42 -!- gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:51:54 gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:28 stassats`: it's well-placed. I can see some eye-rolling coming as a result. There's a difference between putting it right there and putting it at the end of the sentence. 00:52:35 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:52:42 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1176023246.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:53:07 it's hard to argue with, because it also makes sense to put a [citation needed] in things that seem questionable. But [cn] is also a polite equivalent of 'I think you're full of it' 00:54:47 i'd just remove 'efficient' 00:56:57 maybe "efficient[citation needed]" encourages writers to find citations and/or argue about efficiency 00:57:40 is it valuable to argue about it? 00:57:53 not at all. I was making an offhand comment. :) 00:58:08 it is valuable to find the "truth" about the statement 00:58:37 z0d: if statement is valuable, sometimes it is better simply to remove it 00:59:20 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:59:33 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:00:10 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:01:38 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-106.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:53 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3E4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:06:45 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-106.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:07:06 what is the preferred way to make SBCL know about libraries installed by cl-build? Making a symlink in .sbcl ? 01:07:58 modifying asdf:*central-registry* 01:08:28 z0d: I push clbuild's systems directory into *central-registry* in my .sbclrc 01:09:47 Thanks 01:10:55 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3E4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:11 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:14:11 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-223.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Operation timed out] 01:15:30 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-223.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:30 -!- brianj_otter [n=brianj@wsip-24-234-224-152.lv.lv.cox.net] has quit [] 01:29:08 oudeis [n=oudeis@192.117.29.142.static.012.net.il] has joined #lisp 01:30:12 wc 01:30:18 -!- mueslischnitte [n=kaldewey@147.172.224.4] has left #lisp 01:31:33 dunno about mudballs, but an asdf-install replacement would be good short-term-wise 01:32:10 what would be good long-term? 01:33:51 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:29 a usable asdf replacement 01:35:14 *attila_lendvai* has high hopes for xcvb 01:36:19 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3E4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:36:51 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:57 hope it doesn't lead to balkanization of system definition facitilies 01:37:15 that would be lot worse than forever staying with asdf 01:37:53 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:37:54 interop! 01:38:31 at least for asdf, I would think you can always define a funky-system class which invokes appropriate other thing upon load-op 01:39:20 downloading deps is a bit more tricky, but should be doable; someone just needs to do it :-) 01:39:55 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:40:53 ths__ [n=ths@X7543.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:41:19 still can't figure why asdf sometimes lets stale fasl live 01:41:36 depends are properly set up. maybe it's angry when the source file gets older? 01:43:48 yCrazyEdd [n=CrazyEdd@114-198-35-98.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 01:48:32 Administrador [n=Administ@201.160.239.17.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has joined #lisp 01:48:36 Asians, Whites, Amerindians, and Mestizos are descended from extraterrestrials who mixed with anthropoids and Neanderthals. Niggggers really did solely evolve from just MONKEYS. Join us today at Chimpout.com! No matter what race you are, as long as you aren't a nigiigger. http://www.chimpout.com/forum/index.php 01:49:54 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.134.169] has joined #lisp 01:50:00 ahm, what the hell? 01:50:31 m4dnificent: mental illness 01:50:32 seems like I should really be sleaping, these things can't be free software (what freenet is for) 01:50:45 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.134.169] has left #lisp 01:50:57 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o slyrus 01:51:24 -!- Administrador [n=Administ@201.160.239.17.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx] has quit [K-lined] 01:51:35 ty slyrus, good night all 01:51:51 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:52:18 -!- slyrus has set mode +b *!*@201.160.239.17.cable.dyn.cableonline.com.mx 01:53:28 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o slyrus 01:57:17 -!- ths [n=ths@X6252.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:09:37 even by the normal standards of wacky racists, that's rather silly 02:10:34 maybe it's a CIA honeypot 02:14:11 i wonder whether pattern-matching over (and array (not vector)) could be useful 02:14:13 crod [n=cmell@cb8a16-106.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:16:23 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a16-106.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:18:15 divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:25 Kirklander [n=Kirkland@216.93.247.56] has joined #lisp 02:23:35 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:42 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-205-223.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:26:51 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:26:57 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 02:27:45 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 02:28:48 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:35:31 int80_h [n=michael@h-68-166-221-28.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:41 holy cow this channel is crowded 02:39:00 so, who has ops on? 02:40:30 want to buy them beers? 02:40:46 so my pattern matcher appears to work, sans yet-to-be-written api, docs and tests 02:41:00 anyone has an idea for a cool feature? 02:41:18 weirdo: what kind of patterns? destructuring? 02:41:30 kpreid, destructuring + unification 02:43:48 so i wrote :typep and :pred, but surely there's something cool to add to the standard distribution :) 02:44:11 weirdo: :primep 02:45:40 (me is solving another problem at project euler, can't think about anything but primes) 02:46:15 weirdo: and and or patterns 02:46:22 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:39 "match this value against both patterns" and "match this value against either one" 02:47:01 in the latter case, the same variables may occur in both 02:47:17 kpreid, thank you :) 02:47:20 weirdo: does it already have kleene star? 02:47:27 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.134.169] has joined #lisp 02:47:45 ah yes, that's a good one 02:47:51 gotta find a way for :or not to inhibit constant folding in sbcl 02:49:10 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 02:49:41 kleene star gonna be n^2, but hell :) 02:50:03 stassats`, kpreid: thanks! 02:50:46 the interesting thing is what you do when a variable occurs in a repetition 02:51:27 if unbound, set, if bound, test for equality with a globally defined equality predicate 02:51:36 naw 02:51:43 well, that's not the interesting answer I learned 02:51:50 what's the good one, then? 02:51:55 that is: bind the variable to *a list of* the results 02:52:24 what for? backtracking? 02:52:33 no, as a useful sort of destructuring 02:52:58 could you please elaborate? 02:53:22 when and how could i destructure that? 02:54:18 for the sake of concreteness let's imagine pattern matching using quasiquote syntax, with a generalized @ for repetition. I'm sure yours doesn't work this way, but bear with me 02:55:04 if you match the alist ((1 . 2) (3 . 4)) against the pattern `(@(keys . values)) then keys is (1 3) and values is (2 4) 02:55:54 er, I forgot some commas 02:56:04 `(@(,keys . ,values)) 02:56:11 what would happen when matching keys again? 02:56:38 basically all this is is that when a variable occurs inside a repetition, you bind it to a list of every match 02:56:45 i could introduce an :each keyword that does exactly that, though 02:57:21 in the simple case of a variable directly in a repetition you just get a sublist 02:57:36 why are you using keywords? 02:57:47 symbol conflicts 02:57:52 eh? 02:58:09 i'd have to export all matcher keywords and wanted to give them short names 02:58:37 there could also be confusion when they have names in the cl package 02:58:58 -!- syamajal_ [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:59:14 hmm 02:59:44 you're right. i'll just disallow variables named to keywords or QUOTE 03:00:03 i use 'foo for literal symbols and literal symbols for variables 03:00:15 keywords look like forms 03:00:25 uh... 03:00:36 none of that was anything I meant 03:01:34 keywords in what sense, then? 03:02:00 sorry, I meant everything after "you're right" 03:02:48 anything wrong with that particular scheme? 03:04:27 I dislike it 03:05:01 whamied [n=whamied@c-24-30-73-140.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:13 either consistently do things in form style (i.e. list patterns are marked) or not (things which are not list patterns are marked) 03:05:34 s/things/lists/ 03:05:38 oh 03:06:35 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:06:39 the question to ask is, is your system unambiguous? is it capable of, for example, matching and extracting the value from a QUOTE form? 03:07:01 QUOTE and keywords are banned as of now 03:07:06 banned as variable names, that is 03:07:08 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a9b-219.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:07:12 that's not the question 03:07:32 say I have a CL form. it might be a QUOTE form. can I use your matcher to determine if it is a QUOTE form, and if so, extract the value? 03:07:45 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a16-106.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:07:50 the syntax you've described so far does not permit that unless you have a this-is-a-list-pattern marker 03:08:08 need to add a :quote keyword that does that. thanks for the reminder 03:12:12 -!- divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:21:21 =]' 03:22:23 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 03:25:14 -!- Eno_1 is now known as Eno_ 03:25:53 -!- whamied [n=whamied@c-24-30-73-140.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:26:40 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:27:49 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 03:28:08 Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:28:39 whamied [n=whamied@c-24-30-73-140.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:56 -!- whamied [n=whamied@c-24-30-73-140.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:30:19 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:31:49 -!- UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:32:34 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 03:34:24 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:35:08 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:38:21 yangsx [n=yangsx@125.33.154.84] has joined #lisp 03:39:35 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:43:33 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 03:44:33 -!- dwave- [i=dwave@100.84-49-235.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:46:03 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 03:50:11 ReiniUrban [n=chatzill@212-183-59-118.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 03:51:37 how do I cancel an input that's not returning anything? It's simply printing anything I type as is. 03:52:21 is sbcl 03:53:02 Ctrl-c ? 03:53:15 aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-55-8-117.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:49 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-52-101.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:54:50 -!- ReiniUrban is now known as rurban 03:55:03 that'll quit sbcl 03:55:40 have you tried? 03:55:51 hmm debugging cps-style macros are approximately as hard to debug as C code 03:57:02 C code isn't hard to debug. C environments tend to have very good debuggers, and even gdb is usable. 03:57:22 stassats`: thanks it worked 03:57:22 kpreid, got any idea how to make an OR pattern that doesn't trip up sbcl constant folding? 03:57:53 weirdo: what do you want to get folded? 03:58:03 local function will trip it up, tagbody will require a SETQ and that breaks it as well 03:58:35 constant patterns. maybe it's a waste of time? 03:58:45 you know, sbcl can infer their value 03:59:47 I'd say if someone's using an or-pattern on constant values, don't worry about it :-) 03:59:55 :) 04:00:09 it's really fun though, reduced 180 lines of asm to 70 04:00:21 too bad it can't constant-fold LABELS or SETQ 04:01:15 wonder, since there are no free-form expressions, maybe adding (optimize (speed 3) (safety 0)) would be in order? 04:01:22 hmm 04:01:56 if my expansion is correct, then there could be no safety errors 04:02:21 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@125.33.154.84] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:02:38 declare the labels function inline? 04:03:10 (uh, but only if that won't lead to exponential code growth) 04:04:44 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:51 evening 04:04:51 fusss, memo from S11001001: easiest way to send static files is put them in your pub/; all we do with hunchentoot is put the weblocks-dispatcher function on *dispatch-table*; for tags you want render-page-headers 04:05:51 minion: memo for S11001001: thanks mate! i fighting hard not fight weblock, seems like I don't have to fight :-) cheers! 04:05:51 Remembered. I'll tell S11001001 when he/she/it next speaks. 04:06:14 rlpowell: you around? 04:07:47 minion is cool 04:21:45 k 04:21:45 S11001001, memo from fusss: thanks mate! i fighting hard not fight weblock, seems like I don't have to fight :-) cheers! 04:22:10 that's english? 04:22:41 so if my app is called foo, all i have to do is write a specialized method for render-page-headers, as (defmethod render-page-header ((obj foo)) ..)? 04:23:08 hefner: that's english, after 30 hours of human uptime 04:27:51 is there anyone else than special variable LET that inhibits tail call optimization in sbcl? 04:27:55 s/anyone/anything 04:28:22 fusss: :after 04:28:59 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.134.169] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:29:57 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:34:37 jackdaw [n=jack@cpe-098-122-166-119.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:35:02 simple question, what's the CL equiv of c's pow(a, b) ? 04:35:18 (expt a b) 04:35:21 thanks! 04:37:36 I'm in lisp mode in emacs but I'm not getting proper indent when I open a file 04:37:49 lisp has the coolest number bashing and bit manipulation functions, inclund 8 division functions :-) 04:38:07 I'm using slime, and indent works fine as long as I'm using sbcl/slime without a file 04:38:16 does that make sense? 04:38:27 int80_h: yes it does, you're not in "lisp" mode 04:38:45 alt-x lisp-mode 04:38:47 try M-x slime-mode in the buffer you want to edit 04:39:15 fusss, 8 division functions? 04:39:42 fisxoj: 12.2.19 floor, ffloor, ceiling, fceiling, truncate, ftruncate, round, fround 04:40:38 int80_h: paste the slime related parts of your .emacs 04:40:41 it says "slime mode enabled" but it's still not indenting 04:40:48 okay 04:41:09 even if you didn't have slime, emacs ships with ilisp which is great actually 04:41:35 how do you get out of a loop? 04:41:36 break? 04:41:40 a better test might be, are you able to evluate expressions in a buffer and have them sent to sbcl? 04:41:51 (add-to-list 'load-path "/home/michael/slime/slime") 04:41:52 (require 'slime) 04:41:52 (add-hook 'lisp-mode-hook (lambda () (slime-mode t))) 04:41:52 (add-hook 'inferior-lisp-mode-hook (lambda () (inferior-slime-mode t))) 04:41:52 ;; Optionally, specify the lisp program you are using. Default is "lisp" 04:42:06 (setq inferior-lisp-program "/usr/pkg/bin/sbcl") 04:42:10 jackdaw: ctrl-C? ctrl-d? OS dependant 04:42:15 fusss: how do I do that? 04:42:25 oh no i meant in actually code, i forgot 04:42:28 it's return i believe 04:42:40 int80_h: please use this to paste large content in the future: http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp 04:42:54 okay, I thought I was within bounds 04:43:04 but I'll use the paste site in the future 04:43:32 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1176023246.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 04:43:33 jackdaw: RETURN, RETURN-FROM; those are to return gracefuly. other means are there for more abrupt exiting. 04:44:21 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 04:44:42 fusss, thanks :) 04:45:35 int80_h: you seem to be alright 04:45:39 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:46:02 except my indentation isn't working 04:46:05 are you able to evaluate expression in a buffer and have them sent to inferiour lisp? 04:46:24 fusss: I'm pretty new to emacs, how can I do that? 04:46:52 you should have one emacs window that's split in half in the middle 04:46:58 to two windws 04:47:00 yup, got that 04:47:08 one is sbcl 04:47:14 another is a buffer 04:47:33 are you doing this by emacs itself, or are you using one of the many termcap based "vt" tools? 04:47:45 no, using emacs 04:47:48 C-x 2 04:48:15 crap, I got rid of one of the windows 04:48:29 in the sbcl one, it should say *slime-repl sbcl* somewhere in the bottom left, does it? 04:48:50 int80_h: it's ok, C-x 1 makes the whole thing a giant one window 04:49:00 C-x 2, divides that into two 04:49:23 it's a single window right now. at the bottom it says (LISP Slime[sbcl]) 04:49:34 C-x o (that's 'o' as in Oliver) will switch between them 04:49:35 okay back to 2 windows 04:49:39 nice 04:50:01 both screens are th same buffer though 04:50:22 int80_h: no problem, go to the top one and visit (i.e. create a new file) 04:50:42 C-x f then choose the file name, with *.lisp extension 04:50:52 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@192.117.29.142.static.012.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:50:57 okay right now I'm deleting a bunch of 'e's' that got printined in the buffer 04:51:09 the sbcl buffer? 04:51:42 okay they are both the same file one.lisp 04:51:57 how do I bring up the sbcl buffer 04:52:20 is the cursor on the top window or bottom one? you can switch between them with C-x o, go to the bottom one 04:52:34 cursor is in the top window 04:52:57 hold on 04:53:06 C-x o isn't working 04:53:55 okay it's fine 04:54:08 Hold Control and press x. the status window, the lower most line on your screen should says "C-x", the press 'o' 04:54:08 it's okay, I wasn't doing it right 04:54:20 you in the bottom window? 04:54:21 so it's back on the top window now 04:54:26 no, but I can be 04:54:32 another slime problem, when i recompile my fn, with ctrl-c ctrl-c i don't get any errors but it's clearly done nothing because when i call the fn in the repl it runs an older version... 04:54:36 okay bottom window now 04:55:12 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.134.169] has joined #lisp 04:55:18 int80_h: M-x slime (hold the alt key, press 'x'; it will prompt you to type something, type "slime" and press enter) 04:55:54 aiee slime barfs 'comma not inside a backquote' in sldb while editing a file 04:56:01 jackdaw: try C-M-x 04:56:02 can anyone reproduce? 04:56:15 thanks, i restarted emacs, but i'll write that one down 04:56:45 int80_h: slime should come up now in an orgasmic splash :-) 04:56:46 it's asking me if I want to create an additional inferior lisp 04:56:49 do I? 04:56:53 yes 04:56:54 weirdo pasted "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72463 04:56:54 for now 04:57:00 can i "undefine" a "defmethod" ? i've created one in a superclass and it's annoying to restart the slime ... thanks. 04:57:08 yeah it's in the top window 04:57:18 can anyone put that in lisp-mode slime-mode buffer and write anything in (,fn-name ,@vars)? 04:57:27 for me it pops up a sldb 04:58:12 carbocalm, inspect the gf and click 'remove method' 04:58:15 carbocalm: UNINTERN is not the right way to do that, but i use it ;-) 04:58:18 fusss: did you want to know if indentation works in the sbcl buffer? 04:58:24 because it does 04:58:28 not the sbcl buffer 04:58:41 oh okay, what do I do next? 04:58:46 you have to windows; a lisp buffer and an inferiour lisp, this case sbcl 04:58:58 weirdo : what's a "gf" ? 04:59:03 carbocalm, generic function 04:59:06 okay 04:59:10 basically, type #'foo 04:59:11 girlfriend? 04:59:12 where foo is your gf 04:59:19 then right click on the result 04:59:21 select 'inspect' 04:59:27 jackdaw: you are not a lisper yet 04:59:30 _sledge_ [n=chris@CPE001c109fb260-CM001ac319195a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:59:31 find your method and click 'remove method' 04:59:37 stassats`, sorry, i shall shush :) 04:59:37 switch to the buffer that isn't "sbcl repl" and start typing lisp expressions. C-x-o to switch. Typ something like (+ 1 2) and press C-M-x send it to sbcl 04:59:54 every lisper knows that GF is not a girlfriend 05:00:16 'girlfriends are for newbies who don't know how to download porn' 05:00:21 heh but my gf's name is lambda 05:01:02 oh crap, my term just dissapeared 05:01:09 int80_h: how? 05:01:19 I did CTRL-ALT (at the same time) and pressed x 05:01:31 that's how I interpreted C-M-x 05:01:42 :o 05:01:52 int80_h: does the labeling on your screen read "TEKTRONIX"? 05:01:56 not to worry, I had to instances of emacs going, I'll be right back 05:02:04 no 05:02:14 I'm using aterm 05:02:18 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.204.37] has joined #lisp 05:02:29 so what's a more aggressive return type statement 05:02:51 like exit( ... ) 05:02:52 jackdaw: look into the condition system. 05:02:57 don't do that. 05:03:01 won't do that 05:03:06 brb, cigarette 05:03:20 oh i gotcha, you mean make a loop which stops at some point, yes neat 05:03:31 clhs throw 05:03:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_throw.htm 05:04:38 *stassats`* can't escape being non-educational 05:04:56 *jackdaw* needs to learn more before trying to do stuff in the same way as c 05:05:05 fusss: okay the top window is the sbcl buffer 05:05:16 and the bottom buffer should be a new file, right? 05:05:46 buffer position doesn't matter 05:07:09 hmm think i understand scheme's insistence on recursion and purr-ity 05:07:26 students knowing c would just do everything the imperative way 05:08:21 saw code written by an imperative-language programmer and it looked like usual scheme except that close-parens were put on a separate line... 05:08:38 damn 05:09:01 weirdo: that is a weak argument 05:09:06 stassats`, why? 05:10:16 yes, for now just go to the bottom with C-x-o (you will get the emacs cheatsheet later) 05:10:20 ok, now the kleene star... 05:10:33 i don't see a point in making language just for being hard for someone 05:10:34 fusss, looks like I'm having key binding problems 05:10:54 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-101-69.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:00 then type any valid lisp expression (print "Hello") or whatever 05:11:03 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:11:04 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:11:06 fusss, ctrl-alt seems to be bound to the WM I am using 05:11:15 which is why my term died 05:11:16 yeah but being someone who is a c coder, it is very tempting to just start doing things in some half-assed hodge-podge way 05:11:17 otherwise it's better to use unlambda, or something 05:11:17 int80_h: use ABLE until you can learn emacs by yourself ;p 05:11:25 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:38 but i do put all my bloody parens in the right place 05:11:51 but, if you want to learn emacs, it's better to learn in it 05:12:04 and don't use set if i can avoid it 05:12:17 emacs isn't the problem. It seems my WM uses CTRL-ALT bindings 05:12:33 people who aren't too comfortable with emacs should probably look at ABLE phil.nullable.eu/ 05:12:47 I'm fine with emacs. again, it's the WM bindings 05:13:01 int80_h: now you know what to fix. 05:13:05 i tend to write more "functional" code in c, and some c programmers find my code weird 05:13:13 now that I don't know what do about that 05:13:32 well, I'll go over to the enlightenment channel ... brb 05:14:34 stassats`, that's no bad thing 05:14:39 stassats`: please don't be like Andew Appel. write C code in C and functional code in your functional language of choice. 05:15:32 i learned c from programming scientific code so i can pretty much only brute force stuff, this is lame and lisp doesn't encourage brute force so that's why im learning it 05:17:24 fusss: why not? if i can 05:17:45 jackdaw, don't mutate your state in any way and you'll learn :) 05:18:08 stassats`: yes you can. but if others have to read it they will be scratching their heads. 05:18:14 weirdo, in many situations that looks like it would be excellent advice, but what do you mean? don't do any side-effectS? 05:18:25 Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-431866.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 05:18:26 jackdaw, yes, except for IO when you need it 05:18:29 fusss: that's a tactical weapon! 05:18:39 weirdo, io is a side effect? 05:18:51 weirdo, nuts, how do you cope with that in haskell etc? 05:19:02 jackdaw, monads 05:19:03 haskell has monads 05:19:05 where i have appealed to haskell as a pure fp langyage 05:19:12 i see 05:19:18 from what i've heard haskell has lotsa' problems when mixing many monad types 05:19:21 In Haskell, an I/O action is not a side effect but a first-class value. 05:19:35 then it requires the programmer to be a type-checker-lawyer 05:19:58 stassats`: the question would be, why are you using C if you're not doing it to interface to the OS or seeking the highest performance possible? FP in C doesn't do neither of those well, maybe you're better off with a high performance high level language implementation? 05:21:06 is sbcl faster than commercial lisps? 05:21:16 i have much to learn o'lispers 05:22:24 fusss: i'm not writing FP in C, but when i have to write in it, i write it in more functional style than most people do, i even put quotation marks in my previous sentence to emphasize that it is still not functional 05:23:16 ok, and maybe the Appel comparison was a little too extreme 05:23:59 i don't know him 05:25:06 he implemented SML/NJ, wrote a compiler text classic and wrote some of the best papers on implementing FPLs 05:25:37 ok, that's what i see in wikipedia article 05:26:12 *stassats`* doesn't deserve comparison with him 05:26:36 you haven't seen his C code though, you would be offended ;-) 05:27:09 mulligan [n=user@e178011128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:29:44 stassats`, kleene star should work on lists, right? 05:30:07 for a pattern like: (list (* ...)) 05:30:12 what data structure do you use, i don't know 05:30:42 but it's hard 05:31:19 the list is an outer level and it's discared at this point 05:31:33 but hell, nothing beats a kleene star. i'll hack it up :) 05:32:01 -!- jackdaw [n=jack@cpe-098-122-166-119.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:35:27 -!- aszarsha [n=Aszarsha@dsl-67-55-8-117.acanac.net] has left #lisp 05:36:21 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [] 05:43:36 -!- int80_h [n=michael@h-68-166-221-28.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:44:36 unnamed annotated #72463 with "untitled" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72463#1 05:44:49 mulligan` [n=user@e178011128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 05:45:06 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:47:39 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-f009603f244c4006] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:48:30 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-4a7b299b35e2cc37] has joined #lisp 05:48:32 wow i just wrote once-only without looking at the original and it works 05:53:14 jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:56:59 dan_ [n=dan@93-97-14-110.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:57:39 -!- dan_ [n=dan@93-97-14-110.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 05:58:09 dan2039 [n=dan@93-97-14-110.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:58:32 hi, quick question from complete and utter newbie 05:58:44 how can i make C-c C-c actually do what it's supposed to under aquamacs? 05:58:45 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:59:05 or, for that matter, any of the SLIME commands .. 05:59:15 i can't seem to make them work 05:59:25 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:31 jli [n=jli@adsl-074-229-201-181.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:52 how do I convert an integer to a string? e.g., 1234 -> "1234" 06:01:03 princ-to-string 06:01:05 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host186.190-137-177.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:01:07 err, nevermind. yay CL Cookbook. 06:01:23 thanks 06:01:35 are there any special secrets i need to know to make slime work on aquamacs? 06:02:24 or "modes" etc. i've been googling & googling but the buffer does not obey any commands like C-c C-c for compiling a function, or even C-c C-q for completing parens 06:03:07 have you started slime with M-x slime? 06:03:43 yep 06:03:53 i get the sbcl prompt 06:04:34 but i can't get the buffers to do what they're supposed to ... what modes am i supposed to be in? it's "fundamental" right now 06:04:52 it should be in the lisp mode 06:05:15 lisp-mode 06:05:19 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:36 so M-x lisp-mode 06:05:37 ? 06:05:39 do your files end with .lisp? 06:05:41 yes 06:05:59 i haven't even gotten to the point of files yet ... i'm on PCL, ch.1 , ex. 1 06:06:51 thanks! lisp-mode fixed C-c C-c 06:07:02 the parens completion (apparently C-c C-q?) still doesn't work 06:07:05 open file "file.lisp" it should automatically pick up the right mode 06:07:22 dan2039: it was changed to i don't remember what 06:07:53 C-c C-] perhaps 06:08:43 -!- elurin` [n=user@85.99.65.141] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:10:09 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["Sleep"] 06:10:36 yes! 06:10:39 that's it 06:10:41 :) 06:10:53 im very happy now, thanks a million 06:15:49 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:18:12 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:19:46 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 06:20:24 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:20:24 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:20:55 -!- dan2039 [n=dan@93-97-14-110.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has quit [] 06:21:47 REDUCE is cool :D 06:22:00 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:41 algebra system? 06:25:38 is REDUCE often useful for stuff other than math-related stuff? I've gotten a ton more mileage out of mapcar... 06:26:35 yes 06:26:45 occasionally 06:27:07 I know I use it sometimes, but I can't remember for what exactly 06:27:34 only for simple stuff like #'nconc or #'* 06:28:02 the PITA is that it can call the argument with 1 argument 06:28:10 s/argument/function 06:28:37 it can call in only with 2 or zero arguments 06:29:41 you can do a lot with reduce 06:32:24 -!- andrewy [n=irssi@cl-53.lax-01.us.sixxs.net] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:32:24 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:32:24 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:32:24 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:32:24 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1874.versanet.de] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:32:24 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit 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06:32:41 gz [n=gz@209.6.18.72] has joined #lisp 06:34:59 hunchentoot dispatch functions, why so weird? 06:35:21 just trying to make a dispatcher for a static file is proving to be pain 06:37:55 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-13-124.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 06:38:13 (setq hunchentoot:*dispatch-table* (nconc (list 'dispatch-easy-handlers (create-static-file-dispatcher-and-handler "/foo.txt" (make-pathname :name "foo" :type "txt") "text/plain")) (list #'default-dispatcher))) just to serve one static file? 06:44:55 mulligan [n=user@e178011128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:47:41 never miiiind, fixed that one :-) 06:50:02 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 06:50:24 -!- funebre [n=mfunebre@c-67-170-13-67.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:50:59 johndoe [n=johndoe@68.44.137.198] has joined #lisp 06:53:25 fusss: don't you hate that? You convince yourself that you've tried everything and are completely stuck. You slap the question on #lisp, and boom, it comes to you. :( 06:53:58 also, why setq?... 06:55:42 i think we should comment out :sb-embarass-luser in base-target-features ;-) 06:56:02 nod nod 06:56:31 half my questions are about misconceptions 06:56:50 i'm used to big frameworks that tied me up and made me feel like a bad bad girl 06:57:06 weblocks is like "meh, whatever" 06:57:19 You're still using weblocks?? 06:57:24 I thought you'd given up on that :) 06:57:37 also, do you mean so-called 'full-stack' frameworks, like RoR/LoL? 06:57:39 what can I say, codependent relationship 06:57:49 yeah 06:59:31 moving from weblocks to hunchentoot is like ditching CLOS in favor of common lisp 07:00:05 fusss: hunchentoot is really just a webserver 07:00:23 i'm fully aware of that, rsynnott 07:00:26 :-) 07:00:58 i have written "lecturefu" in hunchentoot, my crappy lecture delivery framwork 07:01:57 what's this about framework S&M? 07:02:59 bondage and discipline; don't like it in my software 07:03:27 divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:30 well. It looks like I have about 14 hours of travel time ahead of me. Should I bring GEB, Mythical Man-month, or AMOP along for the ride? 07:10:44 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:10:48 -!- divinebovine is now known as holycow 07:11:06 divinebovine [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 07:13:24 plane? 07:13:37 -!- Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-431866.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:14:28 *fusss* learned tcp/ip internals from the second volume of Stevens flying to a job interview in hong kong :-) 07:14:48 hmm, hash tables can't use #'=? 07:14:54 fusss: two of them. 3 hour wait between flights, 3 hour wait in airport before I actually start flying. 07:15:12 jli: iirc, they only accept the eql family 07:15:24 sykopomp: light reading. magazines. a camera. chat with people. no need to be a nerd everywhere. 07:15:35 sykopomp, I'm flying too, in a few hours. can't wait for the Atlanta->Tokyo!! 07:15:47 jli: Hah. I'm flying to Atlanta, too! :) 07:16:09 sykopomp, wear your McCarthy t-shirt 07:16:14 Hi - sorry for the newbie question. Why does (let ((foo (truncate (/ 5 2))) foo) return 5 instead of (2 1/2)? The spec indicate that truncate returns a list. 07:16:15 jli: Hartford->Atlanta->Puerto Rico. (Tokyo sounds much more exciting) 07:16:22 yasuto [n=yasuto@pon100-117.kcn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:16:36 jli: Narita? 07:16:36 s/return 5/return 2/ 07:16:43 maodun: for one, you're not closing your let properly. 07:16:51 maodun, values-list? 07:16:57 fusss, yeah 07:16:58 oh, no 07:17:03 multiple-value-list 07:17:04 jli: if the shirt was clean, I would wear my save-lisp-and-die one :) 07:17:20 but m-v-b is a better choice here 07:17:28 jli: narita is pretty smooth, but it's a hike to get to tokyo 07:17:48 sykopomp: whoops. (let ((foo (truncate (/ 5 2)))) foo) 07:17:55 -!- yasuto [n=yasuto@pon100-117.kcn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:18:01 it's actually Atlanta->Tokyo->Taipei 07:18:01 jli: wifi is $$ there though, unlike most US airports (thinking SFO here) 07:18:13 oooh, drag. I'll have books though. 07:18:31 maodun: try doing (truncate (/ 5 2)) in the REPL. 07:18:38 repaste: http://img296.imageshack.us/img296/2443/yolispnh9.jpg 07:19:12 Quadrescence, just brilliant 07:19:15 maodun: truncate returns two values. You have to use something like multiple-value-bind to actually catch all of them. It doesn't give you a -list- of the values. 07:19:31 Quadrescence: haha 07:19:36 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-24-180.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 07:20:08 sykopomp: ah - i thought it was something along those lines. sbcl gives me 2 /n 1/2 in the REPL, but mzscheme just gives me 2 07:20:42 maodun: I don't know about scheme, but you can catch, the 1/2 with m-v-b 07:20:43 sykopomp: i didn't realize that a function could return two values, short of putting them in a list. 07:20:48 clhs multiple-value-bind 07:20:49 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_multip.htm 07:20:59 maodun: a function can return many values. Not just two. 07:21:29 sykopomp: could you please give me a simple example? 07:22:00 maodun: read clhs 07:22:12 sykopomp: ok - thanks a lot 07:22:18 sykopomp: so hows that tutorial comming along? 07:22:20 :) 07:22:33 holycow: *whine* 07:22:40 *nudge* 07:22:41 lol 07:22:51 holycow: it'll come. My vacation is actually about to start :) 07:23:07 wicked :) 07:26:30 what tutorial? 07:26:51 jli: hello-newbie-welcom-2-lithp tutorial 07:27:51 ah 07:29:56 jli: I'm trying to copy the appeal of some of ruby's tutorials, and try to provide a low barrier of entry, to see if something like that could help. 07:30:00 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:31:07 neat :) 07:34:09 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:34:37 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:27 gonzojive_ [n=red@ip98-169-46-222.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:25 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-107-171.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:41:39 -!- younder [n=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has left #lisp 07:41:52 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@141.157.234.96] has joined #lisp 07:42:04 -!- gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:42:37 -!- yCrazyEdd [n=CrazyEdd@114-198-35-98.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:43:18 ejs1 [n=eugen@77-109-24-180.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 07:43:22 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-24-180.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:45:38 doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 07:45:54 nostoi [n=nostoi@166.Red-81-39-229.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:52:05 sykopomp: you and i both come from places considere tourist attractions :-) 07:56:33 fusss: where did you say you came again? 07:56:43 Somalia 07:56:56 ah, yes. We talked about plantains. :) 07:57:03 <3 07:57:23 we just over-shot Afghanistan in terms of popularity as honeymoon destination 07:58:34 fusss: haha. Good jab :D 07:58:40 s/jab/job/ 07:59:38 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77-109-24-180.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has left #lisp 08:00:51 Quadrescence: http://omploader.org/vMTFleg related. 08:01:51 sykopomp: hahAHahahahah 08:02:27 sykopomp: me and someone else on skype are dying 08:02:33 of laughter 08:02:41 :) 08:04:03 which brings to mind... it would be amusing in a luser way to learn to do web stuff by writing an imageboard. 08:05:22 beach [n=user@203.210.248.212] has joined #lisp 08:05:26 good afternoon 08:05:34 mornin' beach 08:07:13 Xof: around? 08:08:38 [oh, well, not urgent] 08:09:37 Well, this hotel is a lot more civilized with free Wifi, compared to 1EUR/5min in Paris. 08:10:41 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:12:25 hey Krystof 08:12:45 morning 08:20:53 yangsx [n=yangsx@125.33.154.84] has joined #lisp 08:21:24 -!- chawls [n=nix@bzq-219-145-16.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [] 08:24:24 Quadrescence: you on Skype? can you see if you can run a web server on a machine running Skype? 08:24:33 unpossible! (sic) 08:25:33 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@141.157.234.96] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:25:50 beach: i was telling someone else above, $5 for 20 minutes in Narita airport 08:26:52 ripoff! 08:27:16 it's free in Hartford! :) 08:27:20 and all phones are CDMA, 08:27:25 god i love japan 08:27:29 cdma? 08:27:34 beach! 08:28:26 hey slyrus_ 08:29:35 sykopomp: A technology for mobile phones. 08:29:47 how's hmc? 08:29:51 hcmc 08:30:29 slyrus_: right now we are spending our vacation in Nha Trang, but we'll be in HCM in a week or so. 08:31:18 ah, sounds good. enjoy! 08:31:46 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@125.33.154.84] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:31:54 Will do! I also have to process the tons of email that accumulated while I was either in the ripoff-wifi hotel in Paris or in transit. 08:35:20 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@166.Red-81-39-229.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:35:25 mrSpec [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 08:35:33 Hello 08:36:19 hello mrSpec 08:36:39 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 08:37:41 beach: yeah, it definitely seems like mcclim could use some TLC. it's been fun though :) 08:38:50 slyrus_: CLIM is definitely very nice, and McCLIM is very good, though not perfect. I would love to see it improve. 08:40:04 slyrus_: come hack on it with us! One week! January! etc 08:40:18 where? bx? 08:40:42 january and february are pretty booked up this year 08:41:02 slyrus_: Just a couple people getting together and doing some minor hacking over a week. 08:41:10 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBB444.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:41:12 where? 08:41:23 slyrus_: not Bx as far as I know :) 08:41:46 slyrus_: probably gonna set up an IRC channel, I guess. I don't know exactly what the state of matters is... it's mostly just getting mentioned (by me..) 08:42:34 -!- jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:42:39 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-141-157-234-96.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:47 ah, ok. I can hack remotely, every now and then anyway. 08:43:21 besiria [n=user@ppp083212087236.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 08:43:48 -!- jli [n=jli@adsl-074-229-201-181.sip.gnv.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 08:44:06 beach: should I post this to the ML for mcclim, or talk to someone? 08:47:46 -!- H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB8051.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:48:15 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:49:31 sykopomp: Remind me, was it McCLIM in general or mostly Climacs? 08:49:45 sykopomp: if the former, sure use mcclim-devel, otherwise use climacs-devel. 08:49:53 beach: the main interest is Climacs, yes. 08:50:20 sykopomp: Then I think climacs-devel is better. Many people are on both anyway. 08:51:28 beach: Alright, thank you. I'll write something up when I am more lucid and pitch it :) 08:52:51 -!- UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:53:15 netaust1n [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:53:47 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:09 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.225.113] has joined #lisp 08:58:19 antoni [n=antoni@16.pool85-53-7.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 08:58:51 catnap [n=tommi@hoasnet-fe30dd00-48.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 08:59:51 I have a little problem loading a file in common lisp repl 09:00:17 the file is not in home directory, but in the place where I keep my code 09:00:38 when I try to load the file, repl says that it doesn't exist 09:01:47 this is the command that I used: (load "~/Ohjelmalistaukset/paip/auxfns.lisp") 09:02:05 and this is the error message: File-error in function LISP::INTERNAL-LOAD: "~/Ohjelmalistaukset/paip/auxfns.lisp" does not exist. [Condition of type KERNEL:SIMPLE-FILE-ERROR] 09:03:31 catnap: don't use ~ 09:03:32 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:03:43 appletizer [i=a@82-32-122-46.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 09:04:37 sykopomp: I tried without ~ also, so that I started with /home/user-name/ 09:04:51 that didn't work 09:04:56 catnap: Since it doesn't translate. Use an absolute path, or (user-homedir-pathname), check that the file actually exists, too. 09:05:13 good morning 09:05:16 that directory looks like something very easy to misspell :) 09:05:20 mornin' nikodemus 09:05:24 I know that the file exists 09:05:40 and it cannot be mispelled, because I used tabulator to complete the names 09:06:28 whoops - now there's another error message 09:06:37 catnap: the error is pretty straightforward. The path you're giving it does not exist. There's a lot of things that could cause this, most of them outside of the scope of lisp... 09:06:40 it changes when I type the whole name 09:06:46 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:06:49 to? 09:06:55 this is the current message: Attempt to modify the locked package EXTENSIONS, by defining macro ONCE-ONLY [Condition of type LISP::PACKAGE-LOCKED-ERROR] 09:06:57 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:07:27 catnap: read the error. What is it telling you? 09:07:38 it sounds like you got the right file, by the way. 09:08:28 I don't know anything about lisp packages 09:08:47 it seems to have loaded now - I simply ignored the error 09:08:49 catnap: the problem now is that the file puts stuff in CL-USER, and CL-USER:ONCE-ONLY is the same as EXTENSIONS:ONCE-ONLY, which already exists 09:09:53 catnap: put (defpackage :paip (:use :cl))) (in-package :paip) on top of the file you are loading 09:10:19 and then say (in-package :paip) before you start playing around with the code you've loaded 09:11:04 ok - I'll try that next 09:11:25 also, while PAIP is *really* nice, it is probably not the best thing to start with, especially since some things there aren't strictly true (the standard was finalized after paip was published) 09:11:50 minion: please tell catnap about pcl 09:11:51 catnap: look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 09:11:57 learning about things like packages before hitting paip might spare some pain along the road 09:12:14 PCL covers all that stuff, yo. 09:12:23 also the PAIP files contain multiple definitions of some code, IIRC 09:12:39 there seems to be unmatched parentesis 09:13:55 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:15:31 robyonrails [n=roby@host51-121-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:18:52 has some one else tried these paip examples already? 09:19:02 for me it seems to give an infinite loop 09:19:18 there are many examples 09:19:19 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-175.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:19:38 I typed (requires "examples") like in the instructions 09:19:56 not the cpu is spinning, but nothing happens 09:20:27 as said before, PAIP examples are a bit old and don't work out of the box like in the instructions 09:20:46 when the instructions are Norvig's 09:21:04 frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 09:21:10 I guess it's better to skip the examples then 09:21:14 -!- antoni [n=antoni@16.pool85-53-7.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 09:21:32 antoni [n=antoni@16.pool85-53-7.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 09:21:35 if you know a bit Lisp, it should be easy to change them 09:21:38 catnap: are you starting with PAIP, or have you read other books? Are you paying attention to what others are saying, at all? 09:21:41 it would have been nice to test if those darn programs really work 09:21:43 to make them work 09:22:27 sykopomp: I pay attention 09:22:33 but you need to know a bit Lisp, PAIP is also not considered to be a real beginners book 09:23:02 it's very strong on the list processing, but doesn't give you much background. (that was my opinion) 09:23:16 lispm: I understand this quite well - perhaps the quick glance that I took on pcl wasn't quite enough... 09:24:35 Norvig says: If "requires" does not work properly on your system you may have to alter its definition, in the file "auxfns.lisp". 09:25:30 which Lisp are you using? 09:25:38 lisp in the box 09:25:47 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.134.169] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:25:56 I have common slip with emacs and slime 09:25:56 which implementation was that? sbcl? clisp? 09:26:13 you have 'common slip'?? 09:27:35 I ment common lisp 09:27:38 the uncommon slippers, would that be the dog you wear in Simon the Sorceror 2? 09:28:01 common lisp is a language, but which implementation is it? 09:28:23 who knows 09:28:34 if you don't really know that, then you should not be looking at PAIP right now ;-) 09:29:22 Norvig: loop.lisp Load this first if your Lisp doesn't support ANSI LOOP 09:29:32 that's old 09:30:07 catnap: going thru PCL from start to finish is really recommended 09:30:21 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:30:35 minion: gentle introduction 09:30:36 you speak nonsense 09:30:50 you're not trying to bring me down, are you? 09:31:00 anyways, tourvig's book is another alternative which some people seem to prefer 09:31:13 catnap: nope 09:31:19 lisp knowledge is a detail - I'm sure you can get the ideas in paip anyway 09:31:59 catnap: PAIP is slightly non-ANSI. you need to know lisp properly to know which bits a slightly bogus 09:32:05 I will try to find the place where I downloaded common lisp 09:32:24 catnap, you downloaded a compiler for CL, not CL itself. :) 09:32:42 (make-instance 'cl-implementation) 09:32:45 if you don't know, you will just end up wrestling with errors you don't understand 09:33:14 catnap, if you can program your way out of the bed room, i.e. has written some code before in other languages, I dearly recommend Practical Common Lisp.. Moreover, I suggest you experiment as much as possible. I didn't, so it took me longer time. 09:33:18 working thru PCL is a good way to obtain the aforementioned knowledge 09:33:56 is there some lisp command that could tell the implementation 09:34:34 (lisp-implementation-type) 09:35:22 from your paste I am pretty sure you are running clisp, though 09:35:50 it says "CMU Common Lisp" 09:36:42 now you need to change the files so that they work in CMUCL 09:36:50 bb3 [n=bruce@136.187.233.220.exetel.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:37:05 if you have read PCL first, then it would be easz, I'd guess ;-) 09:37:17 oh, right. CMUCL too has all sorts of things in EXT 09:37:50 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:38:19 so the problem is CMUCL - surely the implementation can be changed? 09:38:32 yes and no 09:38:37 no, the problem is that the PAIP files are old 09:39:03 #+CMU "sparcf" 09:39:29 problem is that PAIP files try to do non-standard stuff that were necessary /way back/. of course you could look for a CMUCL binary from that era... 09:40:16 as mentioned before, it would helpful to put paip stuff in its own package 09:40:44 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:57 -!- bb3 [n=bruce@136.187.233.220.exetel.com.au] has left #lisp 09:41:27 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 09:43:15 roby_ [n=roby@host14-155-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:44:48 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 09:45:03 -!- roby_ [n=roby@host14-155-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 09:45:21 roby_ [n=roby@host14-155-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:46:02 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host51-121-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:47:10 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 09:47:15 -!- beach [n=user@203.210.248.212] has left #lisp 09:47:36 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.134.169] has joined #lisp 09:47:57 -!- Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has quit ["sleep"] 09:48:19 there's a cl-paip package in debian with an asd file by kmr. Haven't tried it, but it probably wouldn't be there if it didn't work on recent lisp implementations shipped by Debian. 09:49:40 lichtblau: I have ubuntu - perhaps the package is available for that also 09:50:01 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.133] has joined #lisp 09:50:31 yep, I found it 09:50:41 thaks for the tip, lichtblau 09:51:39 check README.Debian in its documentation for instructions 09:51:39 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:51:46 "Keep in mind that the PAIP code is meant as examples for study.I have found that some examples don't run cleanly or compile cleanly." 09:52:25 -!- roby_ [n=roby@host14-155-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 09:52:39 robyonrails [n=roby@host14-155-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 09:53:25 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:39 I downloaded cl-paip with apt-get, but now it's nowhere to be found 09:57:18 -!- antoni [n=antoni@16.pool85-53-7.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 10:07:19 ELIZA> what time is it? 10:07:20 WHAT DO YOU THINK? 10:07:38 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 10:09:52 lispm: yay, eliza! 10:10:24 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.204.37] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 10:10:36 I've loaded the PAIP example into LispWorks 10:11:21 PAIP 14 > (simp '(int sin(x) / cos(x) ^ 2 d x)) 10:11:22 ((((X ^ -2) * (X ^ 1)) INT? X) ^ 1) 10:11:38 I guess there are some bugs 10:14:37 bugs are part of exploratory programming style ;) 10:14:59 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:18:00 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 10:19:06 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:20:18 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 10:21:02 -!- johndoe [n=johndoe@68.44.137.198] has quit [] 10:21:41 johndoe [n=johndoe@68.44.137.198] has joined #lisp 10:21:52 there are quite a few ANSI CL incompatibilities in PAIP 10:21:58 -!- johndoe [n=johndoe@68.44.137.198] has left #lisp 10:22:01 (defmacro :ex ... 10:22:11 (defun symbol ... 10:24:11 isn't the former legal? 10:24:49 iirc, it's only forbidden to bind symbol-value in keywords 10:24:55 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:26:49 (defun :key ..) and (defmacro :key ..) are legal 10:26:52 shouldn't new lisps be compatible with old ones like for example Java 10:26:57 no 10:27:29 that's like saying java should be c compatible 10:27:50 catnap: 'old' lisps are much older than even C 10:27:58 there were many mutually incompatible lisps at the time common lisp was conceived 10:28:16 that explains part of the problem 10:28:25 but lisp has had time to mature 10:28:33 if this interests you, check out http://dreamsongs.com/Files/HOPL2-Uncut.pdf (The Evolution of Lisp) 10:28:34 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:36 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:28:48 catnap: i don't follow 10:28:48 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 10:29:21 I don't want to sound too negative - lisp is one of my favorite languages 10:29:50 but should lisp have reached some sort of equilibrium where the changes are no longer very drastic ones 10:30:15 divergant languages getting a common successor explains some things, true, like some variant naming conventions in the base language, and existence multiple operators that do the same thing 10:30:32 catnap: yes. that was called the common lisp standardization process 10:30:51 *before* that things were wild indeed 10:31:18 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:32:06 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [] 10:33:18 common lisp "effort" began in 1981, standardization began in 1986, and finished in 1996 10:33:42 nikodemus: Oh wow. I didn't know it actually took that long. That's a bit ridiculous. 10:33:57 since than things have been stable indeed. java is a moving target in comparison 10:34:10 How long have other ANSI standardization processes taken? 10:34:22 yeah, it is a bit ridiculous. dunno about others 10:35:07 C89 seems to have started in 1983 and finished in 89. Hm. 10:35:14 (granted, C is much smaller) 10:43:08 nikodemus: in docstrings.lisp, what exactly is the difference between a section and a paragraph? 10:43:12 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B367E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:20 I think the standard was published in 1994 10:43:28 I see that a section has blocks in it, while a paragraph has a string. But I need to do away with that distinction, because there needs to be markup at the level below paragraphs, too. Would there be any differences left afterwards? 10:44:52 And if there is sub-paragraph markup, perhaps it shouldn't inherit from block. Should there be two classes DOCUMENTATION-BLOCK and INLINE-CONTENT to inherit from, with a common superclass? 10:44:59 lichtblau: i don't quite remember 10:46:38 I've been thinking that maybe it would be easiest to take an HTML subset and go with that terminology for all class names, because basically everyone understand those. 10:47:11 sounds ok to me 10:50:26 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.201.138] has joined #lisp 10:50:47 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-4a7b299b35e2cc37] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:51:14 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1874.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:52:03 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e178011128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:52:38 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178011128.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:52:56 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-df55af027d0b4a72] has joined #lisp 10:55:37 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-161-212.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:55:37 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:56:42 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-101-69.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:57:26 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:51 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:04:29 -!- xreyes_ [n=xreyes@8.84-48-175.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:05:57 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:08:53 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host14-155-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 11:12:09 hooray, only 20 old bugs to verify left 11:12:36 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:14:55 \o/ 11:14:56 nikodemus: good job :D 11:15:51 sykopomp: aren't you supposed to be on a flight? or are you tethering on that old T-Mobile phone? :-P 11:20:00 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:22:33 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.248.133] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:23:05 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:23:41 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 11:24:04 phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 11:24:09 fusss: my ride won't be here for another two hours :) I haven't packed yet. 11:24:29 I'm 'securing' my laptop before going through airport security (ugh) 11:27:50 -!- phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:52 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.201.138] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 11:34:03 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@195.116.35.13] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:34:09 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:41:10 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.201.138] has joined #lisp 11:41:14 -!- doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:43:18 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 11:44:07 weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 11:44:22 -!- Bewilder [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has left #lisp 11:47:21 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[afk] 11:48:23 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:48:56 it's linux dude 11:49:21 take out the harddisk and strap it to your chest. nothing will go wrong. 11:50:00 I should probably do that :< 11:50:04 ReiniUrban [n=chatzill@93-82-87-204.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 11:50:08 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483FBCE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:51:55 meh. It's probably not necessary at this point. 11:52:13 mathrick [n=mathrick@195.116.35.13] has joined #lisp 11:55:02 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-59-118.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:55:10 -!- ReiniUrban is now known as rurban 11:56:45 caliostro [n=chatzill@host-84-222-129-99.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 11:56:46 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:58:00 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:13 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:40 what do you think is the most amazing lisp program so far? 12:00:37 shrdlu? :) 12:00:46 catnap: lisp 12:00:59 weirdo: what is shrdlu? 12:01:34 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SHRDLU 12:01:39 oh.. it understands languages! 12:01:44 that is really something 12:02:16 ...but limited 12:02:28 is it some kind of fake, like eliza 12:02:55 not that fake 12:03:07 but the problem domain is limited 12:04:07 but user can't the user expand it? 12:04:21 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:04:22 perhaps it's just a matter of suitable vocalbulary 12:04:50 yeah, but it can't really be made to do anything else than manipulate geometric figures in closed space 12:05:26 does it have practical use? 12:05:39 no! :-) 12:06:09 that alright - no interesting program ever does 12:07:14 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:08:42 _dd [i=dima@torch.blackened.com] has joined #lisp 12:16:32 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:17:01 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 12:17:29 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 12:17:37 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:17:59 I've also heard that there's a lisp program that is able to prove gödels incompleteness theorem 12:17:59 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:18:51 bullshit 12:19:13 catnap: ACL2 is a theorem prover written in Lisp 12:19:17 sorry. 12:19:21 it's a proven one :) 12:19:26 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:32 can't see what's the buzz about Coverity 12:21:04 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:21:35 they basically wrote a checker to poorly compensate for C's lack of robustness 12:21:57 with all the effort dedicated to the problem, C should simply be replaced 12:22:35 too bad ACL2 doesn't have first-class functions 12:23:10 weirdo: what do you mean by those? 12:23:26 it supports first order logic if I remember correctly 12:23:34 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:23:47 FUNCTION has no defined meaning in ACL2 12:24:49 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@ip98-169-46-222.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 12:25:52 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:27:03 davazp [n=user@100.Red-79-157-95.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:41 how old is ACL2? 12:31:40 I was just wondering if it would work in my CMUCL 12:35:51 acl2 might, but it's heavily integrated into GCL and you might profit from using it as it's 12:41:26 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 12:42:30 oudeis [n=oudeis@87.70.253.218] has joined #lisp 12:47:16 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:50:35 *fusss* sits up to take note of some funky cool thing weblocks is doing 12:53:51 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212087236.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:57:44 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@87.70.253.218] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:58:32 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1176023246.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:58:45 hello hugod 12:59:33 'morning catnap 13:02:27 it's actually evening here - the time zone is different 13:02:56 I already asked the others, what the most amazing lisp program is 13:03:01 do you have an opinion? 13:03:43 catnap: have you read about cl-ppcre? 13:03:51 faster-than-perl regexes :3 13:04:02 catnap: why, eval! Of course... 13:04:54 sykopomp: someone just wrote another lisp regex library that was MUCH faster than cl-ppcre 13:05:12 fusss: no way. That's impressive! 13:05:28 [citation needed] 13:05:40 it was someone in this chan actually 13:06:03 sykopomp: no I haven't read about that - perhaps I will 13:06:46 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 13:07:05 catnap: have you even bothered to go through cliki.net? :) 13:07:32 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@93-82-87-204.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.14/2008120416]"] 13:07:34 fusss: seriously, [citation needed] 13:07:42 i'm not making this up 13:07:54 i was here, 3 months or so ago 13:07:57 sykopomp: don't be so judging - I've hardly writen my first lisp program 13:08:08 some sort of latin american professor, IIRC 13:08:22 catnap: http://cliki.net Sounds like you're well-primed for some self-driven research! 13:08:39 -!- nute [n=nute@adsl-70-237-204-247.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:08:45 i asked him "why", and he said he didn't know why 13:08:56 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:09:00 fusss: so, no link, no code? 13:09:04 can someone PLEASE back me up on this if they have any idea what i'm talking about? 13:09:06 *luis* yawns 13:09:26 hrm 13:09:29 *sykopomp* judges fusss 13:09:45 I don't find those regular expressions so impressive 13:09:50 nute [n=nute@adsl-70-237-204-247.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:54 all I wan't is a program that talks 13:10:02 ACL2 is actively maintained and developed, and should work on cmucl 13:10:27 catnap: I thought you had some kind of experience with programming?... 13:11:22 sykopomp: I do - but not so much in lisp 13:11:34 catnap: what languages/what kind of work? 13:11:43 sykopomp: I've even been a professional programmer 13:12:03 sykopomp: C, C++ and Java - I have programmed mobile telephones 13:14:17 grep -i cl-ppcre *.*.08 # on logs show nothing that would even vaguely look related to what fusss says 13:15:12 knobo [n=user@ti100710a080-3181.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:15:40 Is there a way to ask the lisp which file I'm in, under compilation? 13:15:49 s/under/during/ 13:16:10 clhs *compile-path-pathname* 13:16:10 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for *compile-path-pathname*. 13:16:14 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:16:20 clhs *compile-file-pathname* 13:16:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_cmp_fi.htm 13:18:44 fusss might be thinking about irregsexp. That doesn't claim to be "fast, complete and mature Perl compatible" though, and points to cl-ppcre for that. 13:18:56 oudeis [n=oudeis@87.70.253.218] has joined #lisp 13:19:10 Note that its benchmark is about search for a constant string, and it specifically says it optimizes that using Boyer-Moore. 13:19:28 wwops, 08.*.* works better... 13:19:34 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:19:36 23:23:12 i've put up some regexp benchmarks 13:19:37 23:23:15 http://common-lisp.net/projects/cl-irregsexp/ 13:19:37 23:23:37 comparing cl-ppcre to perl, ruby, python and pcre in c++ 13:19:37 23:25:10 unsurprisingly i chose a case where cl-irregsexp is much faster 13:19:41 Would be interesting to know whether cl-ppcre:*use-bmh-matchers* was enabled in that benchmark, because otherwise the comparison is extremely unfair. 13:20:05 nikodemus: Nice work on the bug tracker. 13:20:11 i wasn't crazy 13:20:17 -!- catnap [n=tommi@hoasnet-fe30dd00-48.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 13:20:42 oh. I'd seen this before. 13:21:36 12 left to verify... 13:22:29 lichtblau: thanks for that :-P 13:22:54 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@87.70.253.218] has quit [Client Quit] 13:23:30 I don't know if someone wants to take up the challenge for implementing pcre through DFAs unless the regexp cannot be expressed as such 13:23:43 if someone did that, I would expect it to be faster than cl-ppcre for most cases 13:23:55 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:21 Krystof: finite automaton? 13:24:30 deterministic 13:24:31 hey lichtblau i think the cl-ppcre thing was using compiled benchmarks 13:24:32 or at least some -- like the (a|b)* thing that sends every NFA engine for a spin 13:24:46 fusss: yeah 13:25:12 the real thing that would speed it up is computed gotos or compiled c-like switch statements in sbcl 13:25:26 you can run the benchmarks for yourself 13:25:27 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit ["leaving"] 13:25:36 "wish granted" 13:25:42 they are in the cl-irregsexp pkg 13:26:20 alright, I'm gonna head out and wait for my ride. Have a nice day. :) 13:26:34 *compile-file-truename* is not set when I use slime-compile-and-load-file 13:26:43 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:27:02 jestocost: is cl-irregsexp available under version anywhere? cvs/svn/darcs/git/...? 13:27:43 (for clbuild) 13:31:50 -!- frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:36:42 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:37:15 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:37:44 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:38:50 kpreid, great idea with the dolist keyword :) 13:39:35 beach [n=user@203.210.248.212] has joined #lisp 13:39:52 Good evening. 13:40:18 weirdo: what? 13:40:21 oh 13:43:59 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:44:06 typing (list ...) explicitly is essentially a good idea. a while later i'll add a (html-node) type and that'd be bit unfair, plain list types consuming less space 13:44:11 not to mention the assymetry 13:44:58 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:45:14 now i factored out all keywords into anonymous functions. keywords are surprisingly consise 13:45:23 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a9b-219.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:36 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:49:00 weirdo pasted "dolist keyword declaration" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72475 13:49:13 not that bad, ain'it? 13:49:14 :-) 13:51:47 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:52:48 benny [n=benny@i577A1A01.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:53:08 ah.. silly variable names like `i' and `j'.. that (list i j) loop can be rewritten as (mapcar #'list temp-fns bound-vars) 13:53:18 jestocost [n=cmell@cad43e-241.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:53:33 and the other one, (mapcar #'list bound-vars bound-vars) 13:53:39 etc. 13:54:24 :-) thanks. and there's an unhygienic local function name, too 13:55:50 frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 13:55:50 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:56:45 weirdo: I would use a typecase rather than cond 13:57:29 and it has a problem with variables named, say, &key.. ;) 13:57:32 jf-ding [n=jfding@123.113.42.97] has joined #lisp 13:59:47 in (lambda ,bound-vars)? 13:59:52 bound-vars are all gensyms 14:00:45 oh, ok 14:02:41 -!- beach [n=user@203.210.248.212] has left #lisp 14:03:52 -!- maodun [n=stopgo@c-67-180-49-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:04:04 -!- caliostro [n=chatzill@host-84-222-129-99.cust-adsl.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:42 nikodemus: Here? 14:07:51 -!- ths__ is now known as ths 14:08:45 yep 14:09:45 Do you know of a way to explicitly link a bug to related bug? 14:10:23 -!- nute [n=nute@adsl-70-237-204-247.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:10:44 no 14:12:25 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:13:38 -!- Teratogen [i=leontopo@unaffiliated/teratogen] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:13:46 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:13:47 -!- frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:17:13 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:18:51 -!- jf-ding [n=jfding@123.113.42.97] has quit [] 14:19:27 'Why are there no software methodologies based on suffering?" # http://www.dadhacker.com/blog/?p=1079 hah! 14:21:03 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:22:51 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 14:22:58 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:27:54 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:28:16 frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 14:29:18 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B367E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:42:43 ebzzry [n=quassel@124.217.74.152] has joined #lisp 14:44:27 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:44:50 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Client Quit] 14:45:16 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:47:52 antoni [n=antoni@193.pool85-53-11.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 14:48:04 schoppen1auer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 14:48:21 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:53:30 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:55:04 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 15:02:13 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-154-182.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:05:32 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-70-76.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:05:58 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:10:21 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 15:12:16 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:13:08 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120121]"] 15:14:49 tcr: is macros tag useful for you? 15:16:52 because grouping the those bugs together doesn't really make sense from implementation POV 15:17:23 the two environment issues can benefit from cross-linking, but the rest are pretty orthogonal 15:27:50 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:30:39 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:32:22 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:33:17 -!- Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:33:37 Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:45 -!- antoni [n=antoni@193.pool85-53-11.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 15:41:34 frontier2 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:42:10 -!- frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:42:52 nikodemus: re seed, I believe there's something in the C version of MT19337. We should probably add a note to warn users that fiddling with the seed is *not* a good way to get independent/uncorrelated values, though. 15:48:00 feel like switching to compile-time qq 15:48:28 nikodemus: I just thought tagging everything with "compiler" would be too unspecific. The "compiler" always connotes magic for me. 15:48:28 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:48:43 know any systems implementing compile-time quasiquote? 15:49:02 what is it supposed to mean? 15:49:08 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 15:49:24 weirdo: cl-quasi-quote? 15:50:01 tcr: On the next hangover morning, I'll try and tag with the phase I think is affected ;) 15:50:57 luis, wow! :) thanks! 15:51:24 frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 15:51:36 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:51:47 -!- breinded [n=nonamme@h-67-101-29-132.nycmny83.dynamic.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:51:58 nikodemus: I'd like to introduce new tags to denote the perceived difficulty of a bug. So people like me can grab the low-hanging fruits. 15:54:11 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:55:05 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-230-67.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 15:58:10 wingo-tp [n=wingo@11.Red-79-151-217.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:32 tcr: and hopefully a couple students at the U next semester. 15:59:00 You're doing some sort of course? 15:59:35 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:38 With assignments like "Fix three bugs in compilers of your choice".. 15:59:43 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:04 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit ["sleep"] 16:01:34 no, but there's been some interest, so I figured we could do something semi-formal. Overview of the code base, explore documents to better understand the code base, etc. Then find a couple bugs/improvements (I have a local list of things that don't require too much knowledge of internals, but might take some thinking to get right). 16:01:35 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:02:17 tcr: Improve the compiler of `your' choice is Marc Feeley's compilers course ;) 16:02:34 He's teaching at the university you attend? 16:03:05 yes. It's one of the reason I went here instead of going home. 16:03:26 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:31 Do you know if having a master is a requirement for attending a phd program? 16:05:28 not in the US. Around here it depends, but you can often fast track to a phd after 1 year. 16:06:25 manuel_ [n=manuel@tecov6133.teco.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 16:06:53 -!- frontier2 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:29 jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:40 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:07:51 What are you currently aiming for? 16:08:49 -!- spec[afk] is now known as mrSpec 16:09:16 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:11:13 tcr: finish the msc I'm starting next semester ASAP with a couple reviewed publications and a phd somewhere close to my girlfriend. 16:11:18 How about you? 16:12:36 robyonrails [n=roby@host14-155-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:13:30 I'll hopefully finish my bsc next semester. I'd like to do some actual stuff instead of spending the next 2 years in attending just more courses. I'd really like to start doing research. 16:14:34 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-230-67.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has left #lisp 16:14:43 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-230-67.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 16:15:30 tcr: well, it is magic that hangs vaguely together:) 16:15:42 i'll try to figure out some tagging guidelines 16:16:06 but yes, i think an "easy" tag might be a good idea 16:16:09 pkhuong: I wouldn't mind going abroad. 16:17:31 pkhuong: sounds very very cool 16:17:58 tcr: my msc project is an industrial problem I've been working on for 3 summers. I get to have interesting courses and do real stuff (: 16:18:44 frontier2 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:18:52 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:18:59 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19:18 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:19:33 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:20:11 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 16:21:26 tcr: what hinders you from starting to do research now? 16:21:28 bjstick [n=bjstick@cpe-76-179-165-192.maine.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:21:57 michaelw: Tight schedule 16:22:04 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:22:19 -!- bjstick [n=bjstick@cpe-76-179-165-192.maine.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 16:22:27 I'm paying everything from my own pocket, so I've got to work next studying. 16:22:35 i'm splitting some of the compiler tags into compiler-ir1 and compiler-ir2 16:22:55 -!- frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:09 and giving all optimization bugs an "optimization: ..." title for easier eyeballing 16:24:24 Fleeno [n=fleeno@excelsior.fleeno.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:40 tcr: so did I; I switched from a side job to a student job at university 16:26:29 michaelw: I've been doing student jobs at the university, too, but I've regarded as a means to get money. 16:26:40 nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-222-130-87.man.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:46 Hello all. 16:27:27 Howdy 16:27:59 omfg. I tarred up my home directory, but it didn't include any dotfiles? I hate unix. 16:28:21 Latest news from the power company puts the town where I live at 99% restored... And I'm in the 1%. :-/ 16:28:33 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:29:47 silenc_e [n=silence@212.55.66.89] has joined #lisp 16:29:50 hi 16:30:13 in emacs: (defun yank-push () (yank-pop '-1)) (global-set-key (kbd "C-M-y") 'yank-push) - that works but pressing C-M-y afterwards doesn't. what's wrong? 16:30:34 Where to start...? 16:30:51 lol 16:31:22 silenc_e: for starters you're in #lisp instead of #emacs 16:31:47 -!- patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:32:06 silenc_e: see the channel topic, try #emacs 16:32:08 Is that really how you're supposed to use global-set-key? 16:32:49 hefner: did you use *? 16:33:11 I have an odd compile error from sbcl illustrated in the paste at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72479 16:33:14 luis, sorry, but on emacs i asked three times, first about doing it without lisp, second about how to bind "C-M-u" to "C-u -1 M-y" and third this very question (in the process gradually figuring out how to do things via google), but noone answers.. (( 16:33:33 michaelw: probably, yeah. oops. 16:34:03 wgl: and where are errors? 16:34:04 one thing i'd like to do re bugs is to add tests/bugs.impure.lisp, and call only those bugs triaged which have their test-cases there 16:34:23 so i tried my best to do it, though i have almost no lisp knowledge.. 16:34:29 wgl: sorry, i see now 16:35:02 *fusss* can't figure out the hunchentoot dispatcher thinggie 16:35:14 so that we catch accidentally fixed bugs early -- and have a better change of adjusting test-cases which just have to be adjusted superficially 16:35:22 wgl: you are using that function in macroexpansion time before it is defined 16:35:39 eval-whem might help 16:35:41 silenc_e: The thing is, we're about Common Lisp, not Emacs Lisp, and not Scheme. The other thing is, that emacs lisp is supposedly fairly well documented, with tutorials, sample code, and so on. 16:35:45 eval-when 16:35:59 (eval-whem (:typo-time) ...) ? 16:36:22 heh 16:37:40 couldn't hunchentoot's dispatch routing thing be made into a generic function? 16:37:43 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-059-100.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:46 #.(setf *dwim* t) 16:38:28 nyef, is there that much difference between common lisp and emacs lisp that you can't help me? 16:38:58 they are very different 16:38:59 silenc_e: There's enough difference that I'd need to be constantly referring to the elisp manual and finding example code. 16:39:16 I think that the similarities are that they have parenthesis and share some identifiers... 16:39:31 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:39:38 And have the word "lisp" in their names. 16:39:55 stassats: Ah. Let me try that there eval-whim and see what it does. But isn't it defined by virtue of being before the macro referencing it in the source file? 16:40:46 nyef, so when i'd like to learn lisp i'll have to choose, if i want to learn common or emacs one? at least, which will i learn first? 16:40:49 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5ac80279.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 16:40:53 However, if it helps at all, my .emacs contains the line "(global-set-key "\M-\C-z" 'call-last-kbd-macro)". This may help for cargo culting. 16:41:00 wgl: no if you are compilingb 16:41:26 patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:27 fusss: you can do that yourself with a catch-all handler 16:41:30 You have to choose which to learn, or which to learn first, or to try and keep track of learning both simultaneously. 16:42:01 michaelw: i really am struggling with this. i had no trouble editing the test page, but now that i'm trying to actually understand it i seem now able to. 16:42:09 wgl: though eval-whim is a nice name, it is actually eval-when 16:42:14 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:42:35 _mathrick [n=mathrick@195.116.35.13] has joined #lisp 16:42:40 -!- patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:43:16 say, i want to add a simple static file dispatcher to *dispatch-table*; can i just say (setf *dispatch-table* (list (list (create-static-file-dispatcher-and-handler ...)) *dispatch-table*)? 16:43:19 stassats: Yes, I know--was just playing with the typo. eval-whim might be a lolcode thingey. Kind of like that old come-from. 16:43:23 okay, thanks 16:43:24 schasi [n=schasi@p54A26A29.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:29 -!- frontier2 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:43:49 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@195.116.35.13] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:43:52 *nyef* scratches down an idea for later exploration: tagbody/come-from. 16:46:11 fusss: (push (create-static-file-dispatcher-and-handler ...) *dispatch-table*) worked for me some time ago 16:46:59 elurin` [n=user@85.99.65.141] has joined #lisp 16:47:09 that's a subtle way of pointing out my mistake stassats ;-) 16:48:37 i didn't actually see it 16:49:25 -!- Fleeno [n=fleeno@excelsior.fleeno.net] has quit [] 16:49:32 (setf pace (list item place)) == (push item place) 16:49:58 except that push only evaluates place once 16:50:02 i think it is cons, not list 16:50:04 and doesn't use list but cons 16:50:10 fusss: For... what Hun says. 16:50:36 stupid mistakes 16:51:08 you make enough of them and they slow you down :-P 16:51:23 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host14-155-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 16:51:37 the trick is to formulate your problems so that the compiler can check it 16:51:55 it is a lot faster in finding problems than you. for certain values of problems and you. 16:55:35 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5ac80279.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 16:56:49 i'm trying to figure out what the *dispatch-table* is supposed to contain, in english. here is what i _think_ it contains (talking loud helps me) 16:57:59 i thought hunchentoot page is pretty clear about that 16:59:08 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 16:59:25 fusss: it's a sequence of handlers. The order is important because each function can decide whether to handle or pass the request arbitrarily. 16:59:54 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:00:13 Isn't it a list of test functions and handlers? If the test function returns true, then the handler is invoked. 17:00:29 i just did a diff on *dispatch-table* on a fresh hunchentoot load and after loading the test app 17:00:57 ahaas: sounds right. 17:01:17 http://www.weitz.de/hunchentoot/#*dispatch-table* 17:01:50 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:56 right now it looks like the sequence pkhuong describes, except the top is dispatch-easy-handlers and the bottom is default-dispatcher. in between are the custom handlers the test put in there 17:01:57 What is a good way to implement a computational model? Could register machines be used? 17:02:15 r2q2: is this homework? 17:02:17 By computational model I mean automata. 17:02:20 Hun: No it isn't. 17:02:29 Hun: Trying to do it for a research project. 17:02:33 Hun: Its independant of school. 17:02:50 I'm partial to stack machines for some automata, and register machines for others. 17:03:23 Oh okay so its a valid approach thanks. 17:03:37 It really depends on what you're trying to do, of course. 17:03:38 it's turing complete, if that's what you wanted 17:03:55 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 17:04:05 stassats: Thanks for tip. I put the eval-when around function def and around my invocation of serialize macro. Works in one file, now trying to get it to work with the macro defs in on e package and invocations in separate file. 17:04:29 r2q2: accumulator based architectures are best to implement graph-coloring register allocators for 17:04:49 if they are in separate files, then no eval-when is needed 17:05:50 fusss: I should use an accumulator based architecture? 17:06:04 fusss: I might be misinterpreting, but are you saying register allocation is easy when you only have one register? 17:06:14 hefner: shhhhh 17:06:16 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:06:38 OK thanks for the help. 17:06:48 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:06:53 *hefner* thinks fusss is a bot 17:07:02 manuel___ [n=manuel@tecov6133.teco.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 17:07:09 stassats: the as-keyword and slot->defclass-slot will be in same file as define-serializable-class, so that one will be still needed. 17:07:15 who failed the turing test? 17:08:08 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@tecov6133.teco.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:08:46 i'm just a guy with a due date. if that makes me a bot, fine! >_> 17:09:38 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:10:45 vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:11:03 -!- jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:11:31 slui 17:12:24 sorry, wrong channel 17:12:32 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:13:06 ok i see it: *dispatch-table* is a list of function dispatchers, each of them taking on REQUEST argument. each dispatcher function examines the input and can in turn choose to handle it, in which case it returns a handler function, or decline by returning NIL. 17:14:38 frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:15:43 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:16:51 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 17:18:55 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:19:05 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-059-100.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:20 frontier2 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:20:25 -!- ebzzry [n=quassel@124.217.74.152] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22:01 robyonrails [n=roby@host14-155-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:28:25 frontier3 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:29:34 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:31:35 -!- manuel___ [n=manuel@tecov6133.teco.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:31:59 manuel_ [n=manuel@tecov6133.teco.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 17:32:53 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17E5E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:59 -!- frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:33:23 mamaRozana [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 17:33:28 in #agh 17:33:36 ww 17:33:38 -!- mamaRozana [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has left #lisp 17:36:33 ebzzry [n=quassel@124.217.74.152] has joined #lisp 17:37:21 -!- frontier2 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:26 josemanuel [n=josemanu@142.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:40:43 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:40:44 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:41:33 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17E5E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:42:01 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:12 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:43:02 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:13 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-175.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 17:44:46 -!- appletizer [i=a@82-32-122-46.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:46:24 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.52.233] has joined #lisp 17:46:30 good night 17:46:40 -!- silenc_e [n=silence@212.55.66.89] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:47:20 -!- ebzzry [n=quassel@124.217.74.152] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:47:50 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:50:28 int80_h [n=michael@h-68-166-221-28.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:40 hi everyone 17:50:55 Hello int80_h. 17:51:05 -!- frontier3 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:41 minion: memo for S11001001: is it idiomatic to put my app initialization functions in project:start-project? i need to install a few handlers for static files and other stuff. I wasn't sure if the return value of start- is used, so i wrapped the last form with a PROG1 and added my code after that. 17:51:41 Remembered. I'll tell S11001001 when he/she/it next speaks. 17:51:49 frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 17:52:07 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-70-76.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:52:15 fusss: Hi there. My comp freaked out last night. But I'm setting things up to pick it up where we left off 17:53:08 hey int80_h; things usually work out in the end :-) 17:53:40 I'm glad you're here. I was goping to look at last night's logs to try and re-create things 17:54:58 -!- davazp [n=user@100.Red-79-157-95.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:55:12 anytime 17:56:05 okay I've got two windows, and focus is in the bottom window 17:56:23 I've disabled all keybindings in my WM. So we won't be having any conflicts 17:56:42 how do I open a file again? 17:58:35 why don't you just read emacs tutorial? C-h t 17:58:46 I'm opening it right now 17:59:08 it's going to be a minute 17:59:15 C-x f 17:59:25 better get the cheatsheet 17:59:28 no, C-x C-f 18:00:02 Where can i find an overview of functions for list processing? 18:00:10 Emacs has a menu bar, you know... 18:00:13 I want to write a function that counts all atoms in an expression 18:00:20 Bah, just think "open a file", and do what comes naturally, and it'll prompt for a filename! :-P 18:00:39 clhs 14.2 18:00:40 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 14.2. 18:01:02 nyef: well, I did what came naturally. But chanting and shaking my medicine stick just got wierd looks from my gf. 18:01:13 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@92.255.223.239] has joined #lisp 18:01:20 Oh, is that what they're calling it these days? 18:01:24 jogla: COUNT ? 18:01:36 ba-ZING 18:02:02 I want to write it myself because i'm a beginner 18:02:18 jogla: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_conses.htm 18:02:27 luis: he is using emacs in a terminal (over ssh?) 18:02:51 ahh, thank you 18:02:54 and http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/c_sequen.htm 18:03:05 (since lists are sequences) 18:03:44 int80_h: M-x apropos is just like unix apropos. M-x foo will give you auto-completion for a symbol starting with "foo", etc. 18:04:07 fusss: there's a menubar nonetheless. 18:04:07 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:12 luis: OT, but would you know how to access that? might come handy for me as well :-) 18:05:23 menu bar in the console that is 18:05:35 bit` [n=bit@c-67-171-211-187.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:37 fusss: okay we were trying to put a LISP expression from one buffer into the sbcl buffer. 18:06:04 now I've got the sbcl buffer, and the file buffer, and a LISP expression 18:06:17 Lisp, not LISP 18:06:26 I can't remember the keychord you had me try last night 18:06:29 Lisp, got it 18:06:39 int80_h: type any valid lisp expression into your editing buffer and send it to the lisp process. For me C-M-x works. 18:06:47 *nyef* wonders how many of the VOPs in src/compiler/target/system.lisp could safely be disposed of... 18:07:00 fusss: it's right there in the starting *GNU Emacs* buffer. 18:07:16 ah, I tried C-X-m...transposed. 18:07:31 int80_h: fix your keybindings. brb. 18:07:45 (Rationale: Doing low-level things with SAP functions is more likely to not need porting than doing them with VOPs.) 18:08:00 fusss: F10, ESC `, or M-` 18:08:19 rats I accidently opened sendmail 18:08:48 luis: thanks, but yikes! glad i didn't use it before 18:10:46 fusss: okay this is what happened 18:10:58 in the file buffer I had this expression (+ 1 2) 18:11:28 the key-chord you gave worked 18:11:51 and it's in the buffer 18:11:55 it look slike this 18:12:05 ;;;; (+ 1 2) ... 18:12:08 -!- hefner [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has quit ["argh"] 18:12:12 was it supposed to evaluate? 18:12:16 int80_h: join #cl-gardeners 18:12:19 ben_m [n=Ben@85-127-17-30.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:12:33 too much emacs setup noise for here 18:13:59 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:14:29 davazp [n=user@100.Red-79-157-95.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:46 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:15:28 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:15:47 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:15:56 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:55 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:44 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:18:46 nyef, isn't there a desire to shrink the C-land? 18:19:11 deepfire: I certainly desire less C-land, why? 18:19:17 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:20:04 nyef, oh, my usual confusion, SAP != C-land.. 18:24:20 frontier2 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 18:27:51 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 18:29:14 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has joined #lisp 18:30:35 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:31:09 wedgeV_ [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 18:31:13 Hi all, any ideas of a shorter/sweeter way to do the following: (loop (form arg1 arg2) on '(f1 a1 a2 f2 a1 a2 f3 a1 a2) by 'cdddr (use-form-arg1-arg2)) 18:31:42 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [Client Quit] 18:31:43 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host14-155-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 18:31:52 I also collect the forms with the loop. 18:32:27 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:45 -!- wedgeV_ [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [Client Quit] 18:32:49 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 18:33:21 So practically it's an extraction of three items at a time from a list, plus collecting the first item of each triplet and forming a list of those. 18:33:35 The above works, but I wonder if it's as nice as it can be. 18:34:10 -!- frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:37:02 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:37:09 robyonrails [n=roby@host14-155-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:42:17 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:47:49 *nyef* sighs. 18:48:11 I can populate a dummy trace-table for a code-object, but finding it again seems to be a bit tricky. 18:52:03 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:42 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:55:22 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:55:47 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:57:20 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 19:04:14 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[afk] 19:08:33 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:09:48 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054054245.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:10:54 patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:11 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:12:27 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:13:51 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host14-155-dynamic.116-80-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 19:17:14 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:17:36 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:17:51 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:18:50 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:23:49 frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:29:12 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:31:05 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:31:26 -!- frontier2 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:25 i, I'm still having problems with slime. The sbcl buffer works fine. But I cannot get auto-indentation to work in in a file buffer 19:35:18 I've tried the latest slime as well as the "latest stable" version from cvs 19:35:38 frontier2 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:35:38 <_3b> if you do M-x slime-scratch in the repl buffer, does indentation work in the scratch buffer it makes? 19:36:25 <_3b> and you probably just want the newest code from cvs rather than any marked or released version 19:37:04 -!- frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:37:12 when I do "M-x slime-scratch" in the repl buffer I get [no match] 19:37:21 <_3b> (unless you use an old lisp, in which case slime from around the same time might be better) 19:37:25 yeah right now I'm using the latest code from cvs 19:37:35 I'm using sbcl 19:38:32 <_3b> do you do (slime-setup '(slime-fancy ...)) or something like that in .emacs? 19:39:26 no, but would you like to see my .emacs file? 19:39:44 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:39:59 <_3b> if you like (just don't paste it into the channel) 19:40:03 I got it from the slime-howto 19:40:14 okay what is the paste site url? 19:40:22 <_3b> lisppaste: url 19:40:23 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 19:40:38 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:40:41 uzaytek [n=user@88.227.175.176] has joined #lisp 19:42:13 int80_h pasted ".emacs" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72486 19:44:44 _3b: any ideas? 19:45:02 _3b annotated #72486 with "try this instead" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72486#1 19:45:08 thanks 19:45:26 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 19:47:40 -!- uzaytek [n=user@88.227.175.176] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:48:39 *int80_h* sobs 19:49:14 _3b: I tried your .emacs. still no indent 19:49:40 <_3b> you get a *slime-scratch* buffer though, and no ident there either? 19:50:02 oh, what was the command to get the slime-scratch again? I'll try it 19:50:11 <_3b> M-x slime-scratch 19:51:07 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:51:09 nope, no indent there either. What's driving me nuts is I get the right behavior in the REPL buffer. 19:53:14 int80_h: looks like you messed up the indent function for lisp mode. 19:53:15 -!- frontier2 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:53:43 pkhuong: okay, any ideas on how I can fix it? 19:54:14 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:54:36 better qualified people than me tried to help you yesterday. I don't know what could be wrong. 19:55:02 yeah, I've done everything people have suggested. This is baffling. 19:55:06 <_3b> you don't have anything else in your .emacs? 19:55:16 <_3b> and which emacs do you use? 19:55:21 int80_h: is TAB rebound? 19:55:26 emacs version 22.1 19:55:44 no, I haven't done any key bindings 19:55:56 I found the latest slime to be a bit broken on, I think it was 22.1 19:56:07 once I upgraded to the latest emacs release, all was well 19:56:09 _3b: I just used the .emacs file you gave me, with no amendments 19:56:19 really! 19:56:24 jebus 19:56:33 okay let me try that 19:56:49 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:27 hmm, though now I think of it, I think that was just on the windows version 19:57:35 I'm still using 22.2 on mac, which seems fine 19:57:36 ack 19:57:37 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 19:59:17 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:59:29 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-043-026.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:42 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:00:17 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-043-026.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:05:44 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:24 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:10:41 frontier1 [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:12:28 -!- frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:16:02 ack? 20:16:32 nak 20:17:00 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:23 bel 20:20:50 gotta be more festive, see 20:21:33 Right. Because festive is what I really think about when there's not enough power around to run the furnace. 20:22:29 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [":wq"] 20:22:41 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 20:22:41 enq? 20:23:16 dang, cmon out here to souther california. Low today is 46F. We heat the condo with computer waste-heat. 20:23:52 Meh. We'll be fine as soon as the power company manages to fix all of the downed lines between here and where the power is. 20:24:12 Meanwhile, we have a generator strong enough to run a few lights, the DSL modem, our laptops, etc. 20:24:22 But not quite strong enough to run the furnace. 20:25:00 hm, nice. in that sort of situation we'd have to use our phones and hope the cell tower was still up 20:25:15 stoned [n=stoned@unaffiliated/stoned] has joined #lisp 20:25:57 hello I am looking for programmers who use lisp and the .NET framework. I would like to know more about this but I can't find information as to which active compilers are good 20:26:36 there is also L#, L Sharp .NET is a Lisp-like scripting language for .NET 20:26:44 Random discovery of the day: If you crash SBCL to LDB in SLIME, you can end up locking up your emacs until you kill -9 the SBCL instance. 20:26:48 but its not Lisp correct? 20:26:53 stoned: FYI, this channel is about specifically Common Lisp. 20:26:55 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 20:27:09 nyef: that's long been the case 20:27:21 is there a Common Lisp .NET? 20:27:25 (I have no idea whether there is any CL running on the CLR) 20:27:33 lucca: I'm unsurprised. But I've never done it before. 20:27:45 so no one here would be programming in Lisp .NET ? 20:27:47 stoned: not sure, but there are solid CL implementations for windows 20:27:47 :( 20:27:49 There's always rdnzl... 20:28:08 <_3b> wasn't someone talking about getting abcl to run on .net? 20:28:18 Lisp is like Haskell ? 20:28:31 functional right? instead of imperative, meaning expression evaluation? 20:28:36 no 20:28:38 <_3b> they are both turing complete, does that count? 20:28:50 (I want to get started into Lisp and I was told to use .NET ) 20:28:58 ooh, not so good advice 20:29:39 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B367E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:29:42 I'm assuming the desire to learn Lisp and being told to use .NET were probably two separate issues. 20:29:57 for example my goal is to write Desktop applications GUI for linux/macosx/windows 20:30:14 but I would like to try these languages 20:30:18 probably want one of the commercial CL's 20:30:54 my friend rahul here in NYC showed me at his house emacs and Lisp 20:31:08 he was trying to explain to me what makes Lisp so special 20:31:39 at the time it went over my head but now I have a much better understanding of it and I think it would be good if I wrote some sort of a software in it 20:31:40 stoned: just learn the language. You'll understand it then and you'll probably be happy learning it :) 20:32:04 (I didn't go to college for computer science, I studied music instead) 20:32:39 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-070-009.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:41 stoned: you don't need to have followod cs to learn computer languages. Being interested is far more important 20:32:44 so any advice on how I can get started with this would be nice, I already can program in C#, php, and thats about it but they dont' matter, however I have a solid understanding of OOP and all that stuff 20:33:30 there is a DotLisp, and RDNZL, .NET for Common Lisp 20:33:32 Practical Common Lisp, perhaps? It's a good book, and freely available online. 20:33:34 minion: tell stoned about pcl 20:33:35 stoned: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 20:33:43 ok 20:34:34 I met this great guy in NYC last year 20:34:41 he was in the NYC Lisp group 20:34:57 I can't remember his name, but he was very old, and had very big white hair and big white beard 20:35:01 stoned: a lot of people advise that. However, some personal acquaintances found it a bit too fast. Keep in mind that lisp has concepts that you will not find in other languages. Don't give up on hard parts, once understood, they give you secret powers! 20:35:10 stoned: Have I converted you into a lisper? 20:35:18 It is fun learning lisp :D It is completely different ;) 20:35:22 Quadrescence, is that you? 20:35:25 stoned: Yes. 20:35:26 Quadrescence: are you the old version of me ?! 20:35:32 Quadrescence, remember me I met you with Rahul at the Etch release party ? 20:35:33 madnificent: Possibly. :o 20:35:37 HI! 20:35:38 :) 20:35:54 stoned: No, I don't know about that. I just argued with you elsewhere about how lisp is god. 20:35:55 Quadrescence, you were trying to explain quantum processing 20:36:05 Maybe I was. 20:36:08 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-70-76.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 20:36:25 Quadrescence, do you remember anything about the Debian Etch release party? 20:36:38 No, you were drunk. 20:36:48 There was no Etch party. It was in your mind. 20:36:53 I didn't even have a drink :) I was there for only 45 minutes 20:37:01 isn't it sad the total non-lispers have been to ILCs and I haven't :-S 20:37:18 ILC would be nice. Tad bit expensive though. :/ 20:37:39 fusss: I haven't been there either 20:37:41 stoned: We just talked in an IRC channel if you're the same stoned as before. And you got angry with me I think. 20:37:51 Quadrescence, well yes you did turn me onto Lisp that night about a year ago and I started reading into it every now and again 20:38:13 Quadrescence, I don't remember you from IRC at all 20:38:16 stoned: Okay, now I have no idea what you're talking about. You can't be the same stoned. 20:39:12 Quadrescence, are you the same older gentleman with great big white hair/facial hair and you are are in NYC and you attented the Debian Etch release party about 1 year or so ago? 20:39:19 No. 20:39:27 Quadrescence, ok, well never mind :) 20:39:37 I'm a lowly computer user. ._. 20:39:40 hehe 20:39:45 this project uses APCL in .Net http://code.google.com/p/opensim4opencog/ 20:39:55 ABCL.Net.dll 20:40:02 why do we want .net? 20:40:09 madnificent: we don't 20:40:25 They said it was a framework to use if you want to develop gui apps for windows and cross flatporm 20:40:28 platform*( 20:40:30 okay, I'm still in the real work then :) 20:40:36 s/work/world 20:41:33 stoned: .net is microsoft's property. If I may conclude anything about the history of that firm, then it's that you shouldn't use what they build 20:41:58 stoned: lambda-gtk works for me on win32 and linux. allegedly works on mac. 20:42:03 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.201.138] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 20:42:23 stoned: in all honousty, I don't know what would be good. I'm a bit affraid of their work, so I don't advise it. But I can't give you a solid reason as to why you shouldn't. 20:42:31 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:58 I don't want to use these silly legnthy programing langaues 20:43:10 but I also want to still keep doing desktop gui apps 20:43:34 okay I'm now emacs 21.4 and still have the same problem 20:43:36 so I figured why not .NET and I was also told to use .NET and with a lisp interace 20:43:52 *int80_h* wishes he had kept his old .emacs file 20:44:15 stoned: No not .net! 20:44:17 netaust1n [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:44:19 int80_h: if you're not an active emacs user, the default configuration is good enough for lisp hacking 20:44:26 stoned: for the most simple work, I seemed to like the ltk-approach. Some seem to dislike it here) 20:44:35 So I knew two languages inside and out and was familiar with another half dozen. 20:44:37 mulligan [n=user@e178020072.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:44:38 hey, this is exactly me! 20:44:41 wow 20:44:46 stoned: Which? 20:44:50 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:44:56 i know two langs inside and out 20:45:00 and i know little bits of many others 20:45:02 Which ones? ;) 20:45:09 mulligan` [n=user@e178020072.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:45:13 PHP, C#.NET 20:45:17 fusss: well see, my old .emacs file fixed this problem. The drive my enviroment was on died and I lost my .emacs file. That was quite some time ago anyway. 20:45:31 I know this can be fixed. 20:45:37 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 20:45:40 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:43 someone gave me their .emacs file. And it worked. 20:45:50 stoned: Just learn lisp. learn it learn it learn it 20:45:55 int80_h: try hacking at the console, forget X for a minute because it's clobbering your keymaps ans stuff 20:45:56 z0d pasted "who" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72490 20:46:04 What's wrong with this snippet? 20:46:08 stoned: don't worry about the little petty things like guis and grumblecakes 20:46:09 ;) 20:46:20 Worry about those when you have a command on the language. 20:46:41 For some reason the CONC doesn't get called. nor does any other function call 20:47:07 z0d: slightly more info is welcome if you want an answer as to why that happens 20:47:46 madnificent: what info do you need? 20:47:47 fusss: I fixed the key bindings problem. I logged into a seperate machine (running debian sarge I believe, with emacs 21.4), using both your .emacs file and my own. The exact same symtoms appear. 20:47:53 For starters, the interactive read-eval-print loop, which I'll introduce in the next chapter, lets you continually interact with your program as you develop it. Write a new function. Test it. Change it. Try a different approach. You never have to stop for a lengthy compilation cycle.3 20:47:58 omg! 20:48:00 are you kidding me!? 20:48:04 z0d: (str (conc ...)) 20:48:04 this is awesome 20:48:24 z0d: where is "CONC" defined in Common Lisp? 20:48:32 stoned: lisp is mind blowing. ;) 20:48:40 stoned: What are you reading? 20:48:44 fusss: You're right. It's a minor problem. I can indent my own code. It's just bugging me. 20:48:46 fusss: see the first line of the paste . 20:48:51 <-: 20:49:03 z0d: oh, sorry 20:49:12 stoned: tip of the iceberg ;) 20:49:17 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 20:49:29 lisp blew my mind. Well, more like twisted it. 20:49:31 fusss: but basically conc is just concatenate 'string ... 20:49:55 no function call succeeds 20:50:04 wow man the more I read the more I am impressed 20:50:05 z0d: I missed that paste too, my bad :) 20:50:07 goddamn. 20:50:21 z0d: did you see my message? (str (conc ...)) 20:50:23 This needs a seroiusly hefty blunt. 20:50:39 as you'll see in Chapter 19, provides a whole level of flexibility missing from the exception systems of languages such as Java, Python, and C++; powerful facilities for doing object-oriented programming; and several language facilities that just don't exist in other programming languages. How is this possible? What on Earth would provoke the evolution of such a well-equipped language? 20:50:49 stoned, please don't paste text from the book. 20:51:04 most of us have read the book, we can do without that noise on the channel :) thanks 20:51:06 stoned: An introduction is really not even the tip of the iceberg. It's more a walk out of your house on the way to the road which takes you to the bridge which leads to the tip of the iceberg. 20:51:07 what are the other facilities that don't exist in say C# or c++? 20:51:14 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 20:51:28 continuations 20:51:32 and closures. 20:51:39 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:51:39 common lisp doesn't have continuations 20:51:41 c# has garbage collection, auto memory management 20:51:42 wait C# has closures right? 20:51:43 stoned: returning multiple values from functions, restarts, first class functions 20:51:45 what about Lisp? 20:51:54 stoned, macros and conditions, for example. and also, those languages aren't image based, that's one thing that helps with the incremental development model of Lisps. 20:51:54 stoned: we have _all_ ;) 20:52:08 stoned: Lisp is a language's language, and a language. 20:52:09 stassats: Oh. why is STR needed? 20:52:13 so what type of software is lisp best suited for 20:52:16 minion: common lisp features 20:52:16 common lisp is good 20:52:16 Need a feature? Add it. 20:52:22 stoned, how long is a string? 20:52:25 *stassats* has a bad memory 20:52:31 common lisp doesn't have continuations? I seem to remember reading...hmm can't remember .. a paul graham book perhaps. 20:52:33 saikat_ [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:39 int80_h, scheme has them built-in. 20:52:39 tic, what? 20:52:40 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 20:52:49 stoned, your question was funny. 20:52:49 minion: features of common lisp 20:52:53 stassats anything that plays to its strengths 20:52:54 features of common lisp: Features of Common Lisp, a one-page summary of what makes Common Lisp unique: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 20:52:56 stassats, http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 20:53:00 so what type of software is lisp best suited for? 20:53:09 stoned, any software. it's a programming language. 20:53:10 z0d: because it is defined so 20:53:15 like large corporate apps or say desktop applications? 20:53:16 stoned: it's a general purpose language 20:53:16 stoned, check out that page linked above. 20:53:21 stoned: anything 20:53:21 i found the interactive, incremental development mode in CL extremely helpful 20:53:25 awesom 20:53:30 i cant get this anywhere else 20:53:45 stoned, it's got parens instead of syntactical sugar, but other than that it's just like any other language... (except for the extra features) 20:53:49 and for me its one of the major reasons i'm using CL 20:53:55 stoned: once you know it thoroughly enough, it seems like it will suit about anything. Perhaps it is not suited for tiny commands (because the complete language is loaded) 20:54:06 tic: The parens are syntactical sugar! 20:54:16 Quadrescence, no. 20:54:24 ok 20:54:25 tic: They're sweet to me. :( 20:54:29 what kinda of a program should I write? 20:54:31 I have another question, is it easy to find job as Lisp programmer ? 20:54:35 stassats: Thank you 20:54:35 people serious about computing are not unenthusiastic about learning new platforms and tools. forget lisp for now, learn Linux first. 20:54:37 I wonder how hard it would be to port sbcl to ARM 20:54:41 what should be my first lisp program? 20:54:41 stoned, you know, the one you, like, need? 20:54:45 and NOT hello world. 20:54:58 tic, I don't really need anyting I just want to learn lisp 20:54:58 no no, learn netbsd. It's more uniform. 20:55:02 stoned: I have one. 20:55:13 *int80_h* announces the begining of the OS wars. 20:55:14 stoned, right, so you need to figure out what app you want to write yourself. 20:55:27 tic, well I dunno what I wanna write! 20:55:31 stoned stomething you''ll hopefully enjoy 20:55:33 so advice me 20:55:43 what would you recommend a noob to try to write as his first app? 20:55:53 stoned, say please. (I like problem solving. Like the book "Programming Challenges") 20:55:54 stoned: (format nil "~r" 3141592653589793238) 20:56:12 pick something you're fairly sure you will complete and its going to be fun developing 20:56:16 z0d: got it 20:56:18 ok 20:56:23 4 function calculator? 20:56:26 for starters? 20:56:30 z0d: the macro is expanded before the functions is called 20:56:36 taking user input and stuff 20:56:40 you want #.(conc "foo" "bar") 20:56:42 stoned: How about the thing I just gave you 20:56:47 type that into the repl. ;) 20:56:54 Quadrescence, calculate pi? 20:57:10 stoned: No. Copy/paste that into a lisp repl 20:57:13 and press enter. ;) 20:57:24 I just copy/pasted it 20:57:27 no, it will blow up my computer, I don't trust you! 20:57:29 it looks fun 20:57:32 -!- ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B367E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:57:37 stoned: No it won't. Trust me. 20:57:38 no it won't...it's something fun 20:57:43 :) 20:58:05 anyway I'm gonna go read this book (I don't even know what a repl is or how to execute lisp code) 20:58:12 Oh. 20:58:20 ._. 20:58:41 if you set up sbcl with slime we can cry about how it doesn't indent properly together. 20:58:49 or not 20:59:07 fusss: it will only work on read-time known data 20:59:45 stassats: i saw your reply to him. you win, yet again, but next time ... :-P 20:59:52 *fusss* uses LML 21:00:26 int80_h: Port SBCL to ARM? Why on earth would you want to do that? ^_- 21:00:59 (I might get back to that next year sometime... like January.) 21:01:18 minion: Tell int80_h about arm port log? 21:01:18 int80_h: please see arm port log: http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/sbcl-arm/port-log.txt 21:01:34 replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-15-25.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:05:06 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.195.131] has joined #lisp 21:05:09 stoned: We are trying to make abcl work under IKVM, which would be one way to run Common Lisp under .NET. 21:06:12 That's still a work-in-progress, so don't hold your breath. 21:06:18 oh, inteteresting 21:06:27 (the ARM port) 21:06:44 I wonder would apple put up with it on their iphone? :) 21:07:15 V-ille: as a matter of interest, is using Edi Weitz's thing for talking to .NET not a practical alternative? 21:07:32 jeez I have massive amounts of stuck pixels all across my monitor 21:07:33 :/ 21:07:36 green red blue 21:07:51 I wonder why it happened now 21:07:53 nothing is beside ABCL .. i have tried like every .NET lisp there is.. non of them are even close to CL 21:08:00 wht is abcl 21:08:11 oh 21:09:11 rsynnott: rdnzl? I haven't played with that. 21:10:01 rsynnott: terminal issues? I received a raw ^H. 21:11:17 minion: tell stoned about abcl. 21:11:18 stoned: direct your attention towards abcl: ABCL is either Armed Bear Lisp or a family of languages for distributed programming by Akinori Yonezawa. http://www.cliki.net/abcl 21:12:07 rsynnott: rdnzl also seems to be windows-only, which might not matter to most .net users, but seriously hampers me playing with it.. 21:14:11 ABCL in IKVM "close enough for government work" 21:14:43 what hampers ABCL in IKVM really is the speed difference between JVMs and .NET 21:15:53 stassats: Still no output with ..(:div (str (conc "Your IP address is: " "foo"))).. 21:15:57 as much as people love to hate java.. it is clearly faster due to 10+ years of optim9ization thant mono/net still needs 21:16:08 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-154-182.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:16:29 dmiles_afk: it's amazing how much optimization 10 years and billions of dollars will buy you 21:17:12 z0d: you must be missing something, because it does work for me 21:17:22 if common lisp had Sun's financial and marketing backing, it'd be pretty fast too. Oh, wait, it is 21:18:17 dlowe: i think both java and Lisp are pretty fast.. i am not sure why .Net isnt 21:18:28 z0d: try (with-html-output-to-string (foo) (:div (str (conc "a" "b")))) 21:18:30 stassats: It works if I eval it inside Emacs, but not when I open the web page. If I eliminate the function calls it works from the browser too 21:20:38 I suspect I'm outputting to the wrong place 21:20:38 dlowe: the number i come up with on a apps perosnal benchmark lisp2c 1.0 lisp2java 0.8 lisp2net 1.8 .. where smaller is faster 21:20:58 z0d: are you using hunchentoot? 21:21:03 Yes. 21:21:03 isn't real .NET about the speed of JVM? 21:21:09 z0d: can you paste the whole thing? 21:21:12 (MS's, not mono) 21:21:36 Seemed like sun took some things from StrongTalk for speeding up the java vm. 21:21:47 z0d: hunchentoot's handlers return string, do you return string from your function? 21:22:08 (with-html-output (*standard-output* ...)) doesn't return string 21:22:15 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 21:22:26 rsynnott: it really should be, but the JVM just has done more JIT and lazy GC tricks that are all avaible to MS .NET . but i dont understand why even win32.NET is slower than Win32 java 21:22:35 bit`: Yes, that's why they bought out the company which made strongtalk. To get the VM team. 21:23:03 they also had some in-house expertise with Self already. 21:23:19 nyef, that seems similar to what I heard way back 21:23:22 rsynnott: not the win32.net is really that slow.. its fast.. but the sun jvm is just fdaster 21:23:59 ah, I thought they'd reached parity at this point (MS .NET VM and Sun JVM) 21:24:01 rsynnott: it is not that the win32.net is really that slow.. it is indeed fast.. but the sun jvm is just faster 21:24:10 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:25 rsynnott: javas borke that parity the folling year (after 2002/2003) 21:24:53 rsynnott: jvm implmentors broke that parity the following year (after 2002/2003) 21:25:02 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e178020072.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:25:13 or later.. not sure when 21:25:20 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:25:22 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178020072.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:26:18 so win32.net really has the room to grow and probly get faster.. maybe they need to actually give it a good try 21:27:17 possibly not a priority for them at this point; it has never really penetrated the sorts of markets where anyone cares about speed anyway 21:27:31 and they've Windows to rescue... 21:28:38 everytime i have a fat, sluggish program, i make it a point to find out what it's written in. usually it's java. 21:28:49 something that i say about ABCL on IKVM that at first glance will seem unfair (to V-ille) .. is that IKVM adds a layer of bloat upon the .Net .. but i decompiled the .NET that IKVM produced and it was very amzing free from use of IKVM .. it actually was 90% what C# would have produced 21:28:57 just yesterday I removed Aptana, after I saw it hogging 45% of my ram 21:29:32 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dvk@92.255.223.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:29:44 sure it was really half your ram? 21:29:51 (as opposed to large virtual allocation) 21:29:53 so the unfair part is comparing IKVM +java to a pure .NET... but the comparison turns out to not be that unfair upon dompilation 21:29:55 that sounds excessive 21:30:31 i have the sysinternals tools 21:31:00 close to 900mbs of swap and a good 400mbs of ram 21:31:47 people have ways to "speed up" .net code 21:31:53 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:32:29 By using better algorithms? 21:32:33 Paint.NET is a decent image editor written in .net. it has some of the most responsive event processing code. 21:32:53 no, i meant more like trapping win32 system calls far more easily than java can 21:32:53 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 21:32:55 fusss: i need to learn how to do that.. is it like a "badness cleanner" or a bytecode optimizer? 21:33:21 dmiles_afk: do what? respond to events quickly? 21:33:34 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:33:46 hah! badness cleaner :-P 21:33:53 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:06 i have never programmed in either, but .net at least does a decent job of not sticking out. 21:34:34 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:34:36 fusss: oh i was thinking it was an optimizer.. yeah n/m is the made it feel good by reponding to events more often 21:35:18 thats was the big differnce between winNt4 and win2000 as well 21:35:47 also about the only way that Apple got away with classic macos so long 21:35:47 -!- Kirklander [n=Kirkland@216.93.247.56] has quit ["leaving"] 21:36:07 (it always felt quite responsive, for all its flaws) 21:36:10 Kirklander [n=Kirkland@216.93.247.56] has joined #lisp 21:36:20 the theme at microsoft was (when i worked there in win2000) we can grind there system to a dead halt.. but make sure heir mouse was totally responsive 21:36:24 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:48 dmiles_afk: things would appear to have changed since 21:36:56 Vista fails to respect that one 21:37:21 dmiles_afk: heh! that's around the time you bankrupted us, bastids :-P 21:37:23 yeah Vista is just totally terible 21:37:53 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:38:15 but yep, .NET would have an advantage there as compared to Java, I suppose, as it's practical to target the UI stuff pretty much exclusively at win32 21:38:16 fusss: the was the time congress was messingwith them 21:39:00 and greenspan riased the fed rate 5 times in a unpresidented single month 21:39:04 *rsynnott* was also terribly unimpressed with MS LSPs (XBox Live servers), but they're hardly a consumer product, of course 21:39:18 (you adjust them using remote desktop and notepad) 21:39:38 dmiles_afk: ah, during the ~2000 near-recession? 21:40:19 rsynnott, yeah i am still convinced greenspan interest rate raises is the cause of most of the harms .. it broke the technology sectors 21:41:10 panicky response to a nasty situation; they had to do SOMETHING 21:41:32 *rsynnott* wonders if the current extreme and experimental responses to the current crisis will work out 21:41:38 rsynnott: i watched job loss and bussiness closings all in sync with it.. and then they never rehired or reopened the bussiness .. not since.. two gas stations are still sitting vacant here.. they had been arround 20+ years 21:42:18 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cad43e-241.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:42:34 also three grocery stores closed and the same time on our block.. they where always packed with people even days before 21:42:34 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:42:36 things did recover on a national/global scale, though, for a while 21:42:58 (though the various wars may have helped with that; wars are a great cover to quietly accumulate foreign debt) 21:43:06 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a9b-113.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:43:17 dmiles_afk: presumably something filled the niche, though? 21:43:29 still vacant 21:43:33 aftyer 8 years 21:43:55 (this was only in a small area in seattle washington called capitol hill) 21:43:57 people are presumably shopping SOMEWHERE, thoigh 21:44:12 the one remaining gas station and the two remaining grocery stores 21:44:35 but we suppoerted 3 gas stations and 5 grocery stores.. yeah it was a little excessive 21:44:54 now we only have what is needed ;) 21:45:02 could be worse 21:45:11 could all have gone to some walmart style thing 21:45:23 Anyone who can guide me a little bit on the lispworks dspec system? I wonder if it would be possible to add some more information to, for example, the location of a function. 21:45:38 like version number or git-hash 21:46:47 rsynnott: yeah turned out not that horrible 21:48:43 I'm a little worried about what'll happen to the street I live on now; it's mostly art galleries, which is probably not sustainable :) 21:48:55 -!- wingo-tp [n=wingo@11.Red-79-151-217.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:48:59 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 21:50:08 rsynnott: we have about 10 art galleries in this neihborhood.. supprising the ones that closed at that time seem to at least be refilled by other galleries 21:50:18 -!- spec[afk] [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:50:26 -!- _mathrick [n=mathrick@195.116.35.13] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:51:04 rsynnott: actuallty though i didnt track art galleries heavy .. just for rent signes on bussiness windows.. and they more came/gone over the last 8 years 21:51:34 likely to be far worse this time round, though 21:51:48 mrSpec [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 21:52:54 dyCrazyEd [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-3-243.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:53:12 but before 2000 those art galleries seemed to be pretty solid.. they were about 4 blocks from amazon.com corperate warehouse.. not that amazon.com is that big a deal.. but many eutrepreneur bussiness existed in downtown seattle 21:53:27 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:53:39 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.163.225.113] has quit ["(A)bort, (R)etry, (F)ail or (T)oss computer across room?"] 21:54:30 (the neibourhood i;ve been talking about is about 4 blocks one side of downtown Seattle which you'd think be amazing place) 21:54:37 very strange feeling at the moment, though; Dublin is filled with luxury clothes shops and things; meanwhile the banks are threatening to go under 21:55:23 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 21:55:37 yeah I live in Palo Alto, CA. It's getting pretty dismal here too. 21:57:45 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:01 mathrick [n=mathrick@195.116.35.13] has joined #lisp 21:58:04 i had to move to Palo Alto, CA for a year to work on a project in 2001 .. that place was so expensive compared to seatle.. i never understood how the starbucks girl how made barely above minumum wge has to live with like 10 reliatives to live in their small 4 bedroom house 21:58:21 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:59:08 i worked in technolgy so i could afford it.. but 80k year was peanuts to everyone else there 21:59:28 btw we welcome you all in ##finance :) 21:59:29 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:34 Dublin is also absurdly expensive, though our minimum wage is ~ $12.50, which may help 22:00:02 it did get to the point where buying a house was basically impossible for anyone not earning silly amounts, though 22:00:43 lispm [n=joswig@g224122210.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:00:45 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@tecov6133.teco.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:01:19 rsynnott, at least there is still people making silly amounts most of the time presently? 22:01:38 (silly high) 22:01:47 well, there are, but there are also plenty of people making non-silly amounts, which is the problem 22:02:14 there's also a culture of home ownership, in that it is socially expected 22:02:22 even where it is more expensive than renting 22:04:30 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:45 yeah I think it was that very expectation that caused people to borrow beyond their means 22:04:47 a very common phenominon in the last decade or so is parents remortgaging their homes to help their kids buy one, which is slightly terrifying 22:05:24 also, credit cards. Bloody credit cards. I know people who accumulated 20,000 euro on them before they finished college... 22:05:47 thankfully a lot of this wont happen for some time to come 22:08:31 i'm repeatedly annoyed by telemarketing people to get a credit card. nowadays i just ask a question that gets them rolling and put the phone on the table... sometimes they speak for 2+ minutes... :) 22:08:59 we must make it painful to make them stop doing it... :) 22:09:34 *attila_lendvai* reboots to run truecrypt on that other operating system... 22:09:55 -!- patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:10:07 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:10:19 the banks had this nasty behaviour where they would raise limits WITHOUT ASKING, until it was banned 22:10:27 nowadays they're not allowed ask; the consumer has to 22:11:14 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:13:44 eh, I may just hope the technology industry survives, I suppose :) 22:14:24 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:14:42 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:53 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@142.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:14:53 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 22:16:16 djwonk [n=djwonk@216-188-225-241.dyn.grandenetworks.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:59 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:18:15 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-132-196.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:44 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:19:46 patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:06 -!- stoned [n=stoned@unaffiliated/stoned] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:15 stoned [n=stoned@24.42.88.69] has joined #lisp 22:21:34 Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 22:24:04 Quadresce` [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:20 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-71-193-68-220.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:25:06 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@h253.n4.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Client Quit] 22:26:36 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:27:39 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["reboot"] 22:27:59 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:24 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:34:37 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-132-196.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:39:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-230-67.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:45:06 Dspec takes a string or a pathname, pathname can have version information in it. Can I use that (version) to put the git-hash? 22:45:32 knobo: what is dspec? 22:46:20 eaumontab [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 22:46:33 definition specification. I guess it is lispworks specific... 22:46:48 It's used to record location of definitions 22:51:21 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:54:55 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-70-76.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:56:33 Raynes [i=kvirc@AC83088F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:26 what would LispWorks do with the git-hash? 22:59:39 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:01 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 23:01:02 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:01:22 pkhuong: Here? 23:01:27 -!- rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has quit ["leaving"] 23:02:01 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 23:02:15 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:47 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:02:51 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-101-69.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:02 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:05:15 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:06:02 lispm: warn if older version of a function or file is loaded. 23:06:33 aumontabe [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:06:48 does LispWorks do that? 23:06:58 -!- eaumontab [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:07:40 lispm: the user would use it. 23:07:55 crod [n=cmell@cb8a94-050.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:08:02 dspecs are for locating source code, not for keeping track of loaded files 23:08:10 minion: memo for pkhuong: your specials-introspect doesn't seem to work for me on 1.0.23.59 (I assume I can simply C-c C-k it.) 23:08:10 Remembered. I'll tell pkhuong when he/she/it next speaks. 23:08:18 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a9b-113.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:56 lispm: the location of the source code exsist in version X 23:09:07 jamesob [n=jamesob@pool-71-163-163-139.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:12 Emacs would then find it for you automaticly. 23:09:18 but that does not mean the thing is loaded 23:09:31 afaik 23:09:48 "thing"? 23:09:59 function 23:10:32 lispm: yes, that would be what is meant. 23:10:39 -!- Aisling_ [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:11:50 an advice to comile-file would set dspec:location to (make-pathname .... :version X), by asking git, which version am I (the file). 23:11:50 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:12:31 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:12:33 then the LispWorks tool won't find the source anymore 23:12:33 compile-file 23:12:37 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:41 tools 23:12:51 So? 23:13:01 which lispworks tools? 23:13:08 the editor? 23:13:11 I use emacs 23:13:42 everywhere where you want to find the source for a symbol or stack frame 23:13:49 debugger, ED, ... 23:14:42 Would it noe be possible to make lispworks handle that? 23:15:11 the slime debugger handles the :buffer keyword, and finds the correct emacs-buffer where the source was defined. 23:16:13 and? 23:16:35 So I could make the slime debugger handle :git-hash/version 23:16:40 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.52.233] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:17:25 tcr: I'll try and look over the thing again some time soon. defglobal is on the queue also, anyway 23:17:25 pkhuong, memo from tcr: your specials-introspect doesn't seem to work for me on 1.0.23.59 (I assume I can simply C-c C-k it.) 23:18:07 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 23:18:16 hefner [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 23:19:04 pkhuong: (fboundp 'sb-vm::symbol-tls-index) is NIL for me 23:21:25 tcr: that's normal. There's a transform for it, but no global definition. I guess things might break if you eval with the interpreter. 23:21:53 I think it needs some eval-when. C-c C-c should work. 23:22:20 it barf on the compilation of the %primitive 23:23:07 Is there a difference between your (thread-local-symbol-value '*readtable*), and (sb-thread::%symbol-value-for-thread '*readtable* sb-thread:*current-thread*)? 23:23:29 yup, the vop hasn't been defined yet if you C-c C-k. 23:23:30 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:23:47 the latter seems to involve a global lock 23:23:51 specials-introspect? 23:24:22 nyef: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl/+bug/310204/ 23:24:25 tcr: I don't even have that symbol here, but I think there was some performance suboptimalities due to its generality. 23:25:53 pkhuong: Yeah, seems like it. But the penalty could be get rid of by a compiler macro. :) 23:26:02 hmm, stamp doesn't seem to be loadable at all by ASDF 23:26:02 ... Why the VOPs? 23:26:40 the asd filename is stamp.asd, yet the system is called stamp-core. 23:26:55 Okay, it makes it a touch -faster-, but I'm fairly sure all that could be done without the compiler hacking. 23:27:27 it was for debugging, and I knew exactly how the VOP should work ;) 23:27:48 Fair enough, I guess. 23:28:24 I'm considering trying to put together a version of SBCL without about half the VOPs in src/compiler/target/system.lisp, as they really aren't necessary. 23:28:35 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 23:28:57 What's a VOP? 23:29:42 (defun lowtag-of (object) (logand (sb-kernel:get-lisp-obj-address object) sb-vm:lowtag-mask)), for example. 23:30:11 nyef: what would be the purpose of that ? smaller core, faster compiler ? 23:30:26 ease of portability 23:30:28 More easily portable compiler. 23:32:43 Heh. 23:33:29 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:33:39 nyef pasted "lowtag-of" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72504 23:34:46 nice 23:35:21 And looking at the output from disassemble-code-component, the entry is the same too. 23:36:14 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:38 nyef: the raw slot ref/set VOP are another candidate. They could even either be fixed or renamed; they currently only handle other-pointers correctly (and barf silently otherwise) 23:36:52 -!- jamesob [n=jamesob@pool-71-163-163-139.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:37:00 pkhuong: Yeah, basically a lot of system.lisp can be done more portably in terms of SAPs. 23:37:09 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"] 23:37:11 I'd be a bit worried about the compilation speed effects 23:37:34 (of replacing vops with inlined functions) 23:37:55 For the handful of places that the system.lisp vops are used? 23:39:02 I don't remember whether the code generated for typechecks reduces to them 23:39:11 Ah. 23:39:13 *rsynnott* finds 'vop' to be a wonderful word to say 23:39:27 if it does, it'd be bad. if it doesn't, it's probably irrelevant 23:39:48 So... I should try it and run some simple benchmarks? 23:40:09 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-24-16-246-158.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:40:47 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-24-16-246-158.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:22 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-24-16-246-158.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 23:41:39 the idea of getting rid of some vop crap certainly is great. I can dig up some compilation speed benchmarks for you to test it with 23:42:00 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-24-16-246-158.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:08 Looks like the typecheck stuff is in terms of target/type-vops.lisp instead. 23:43:10 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 23:43:23 Compilation speed benchmarks would be great, thanks. 23:43:38 No real rush on those, though. I'm certainly not going to be ready for them tonight. 23:44:35 -!- dyCrazyEd [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-3-243.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:48 the other things where compilation speed might be affected would be various things that dispatchin on low or widetags 23:45:02 compilation speed surely isn't such a huge priority anyway, within reason? 23:45:07 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:45:29 but at least the first one I could think of (generic data-vector-ref entry point) uses a custom sap-manipulation thingy instead of widetag-of anyway, for performance reasons 23:46:01 ddyCrazyE [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-3-243.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:46:22 compilation speed is a pretty big priority, since doing parallel builds for CL is so hard 23:46:26 I can see that... 23:47:33 and if you have a huge lisp project, where you want people to actually compile the system from scratch before committing (for the obvious reasons), it's a big deal whether it takes 15 minutes or 20 23:48:09 Yeah, hence things like XCVB. 23:48:13 -!- davazp [n=user@100.Red-79-157-95.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:48:43 <_3b> some people still use slow CPUs sometimes too :) 23:48:45 very big systems can be annoying, but in practice full recompiles are rareish, aren't they? 23:48:59 *rsynnott* generally uses them as a feeble excuse for a cigarette or cup of coffee 23:49:23 has anyone used xcvb yet? 23:49:37 rsynnott: Reminds me of http://xkcd.com/303/ 23:49:52 z0d: yep 23:49:58 though C++ was FAR better for that :) 23:50:02 I do a full recompile of sbcl always before committing anything, and usually multiple times while developing something. I believe the ITA people always recompile from scratch as a last step before committing anything 23:50:13 ah 23:50:30 *rsynnott* is far, far too impatient to be doing that :) 23:50:46 except when I change a macro, which makes me paranoid 23:50:52 but thankfully I don't have many 23:51:27 while working in an image is great for development, you really need that sanity check of a full rebuild, to eg. detect the call to the function you renamed 23:52:04 <_3b> also good for figuring out you put things in the wrong files 23:52:27 right, or forgot to record a new dependency between files 23:54:15 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:55 -!- vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit]