00:00:26 `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.2.121] has joined #lisp 00:01:56 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 00:04:21 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:27 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:05:42 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:07:10 XCVB, growth hormone for Lisp? http://fare.livejournal.com/137450.html 00:08:00 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:08:06 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 00:08:26 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:08:34 netaust1n [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:09:11 under documented, where is the progress? ;-) 00:09:35 there are working examples 00:09:48 counts as "documentation by the example" 00:09:56 rather than "documentation by the specification" 00:10:16 so underdocumented, yes, but not undocumented. 00:10:27 Will be hard to port to Genera, unless you port fork to Genera. 00:10:43 what is fork? 00:10:50 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1176023246.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:11:03 fork the Unix thingy? 00:11:31 it's a bit like make-process, but it also prevents side-effects of the process from leaking to other processes. 00:12:02 is that a Lisp library? 00:12:30 I'm sure there's fork in osicat or some such. 00:14:16 m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 00:14:42 I'm sure you could implement it as a Lisp library, too -- though it'd be darned slow. 00:14:45 what does the CFASL patch do? 00:15:43 in addition to creating a FASL that stores the LOAD-TIME side effects of loading a file, 00:15:59 COMPILE-FILE can now create a CFASL that will store... 00:16:06 (you have three guesses) 00:17:10 without GIT I'm out of luck looking at the source I guess 00:17:17 (although really, FASL should be renamed SLOL, or LSSL (less slow loading)) 00:17:30 lispm: wget can help you. 00:17:38 I've asked it here before, but it seems liske I'm not able to figure out the details. I want to connect my lisp (SBCL) to launch and connect to a bunch of other lisps (as to give them new tasks) over ssh. I've got the authentication covered by ssh-agent. It may be rather hackerish, it's just to run over a short period of time. All systems are sbcl 00:17:40 just point your browser at the repo 00:17:50 yes 00:18:20 Fare: but xcvb repo seems to be bare 00:18:37 how that, bare? 00:18:58 I see no plain files... 00:18:59 only git data, no actual files 00:19:35 stassats: doest gitk --all show you any commits? 00:20:00 donio [n=donio@adsl-76-245-43-174.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:04 *kpreid* agrees with lispm 00:20:11 m4dnificent: i have no gitk 00:21:33 stassats: git-log, maybe (but I don't think it'll show all branches standardly (checking) 00:22:01 yes it shows commits, why are you asking? 00:22:11 -!- `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.2.121] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:22:21 indeed. 00:22:23 Gotta go. 00:22:31 I'll fix that when I learn how to fix it. 00:22:42 in the meantime, I fear you have to git clone it. 00:22:54 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-050-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:23:10 Fare: to fix, git clone without "--bare" option 00:23:40 doesn't c-l.net have gitweb or something? 00:23:41 stassats: well, you say it's empty. Perhaps you just need to move forward/backward to an index that is existant :) 00:23:56 does it? 00:23:57 m4dnificent: i didn't say that, i say it is bare 00:24:14 -!- netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:24:57 dunno, really gotta go. 00:25:04 Will fix tomorrow. 00:25:06 bye! 00:25:14 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:27:11 stassats: true, I was just searching 00:27:11 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-050-073.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:17 -!- TDT [n=TDT@143.108.177.207.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:15 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:55 -!- foom [n=jknight@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:38:27 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:39:54 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:39:55 lispm: http://illyricum.ath.cx/gitweb/?p=xcvb;a=tree . it's my computer and the connection is a little slow 00:40:02 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.243.101] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 00:40:32 thanks! 00:42:10 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:43:56 -!- joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:44:48 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:49:51 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 00:52:58 geocar [n=user@pool-71-255-188-128.slsbmd.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:58 -!- rread [n=rread@c-76-102-10-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:54:10 rread [n=rread@c-76-102-10-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:57:06 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 00:58:19 -!- vtl` [n=user@r10ni46.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:59:14 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:29 _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@76.168.248.118] has joined #lisp 00:59:32 Hum. should have made the public repo less bare. 00:59:56 http://common-lisp.net/project/xcvb/xcvb.git/ 01:00:01 tell me if it suits you 01:00:11 lispm, shouldn't you be sleeping at this time? 01:00:23 yes 01:00:25 lispm, any skating on the frozen ponds of Hamburg? 01:00:29 I should 01:00:36 there is nothing frozen 01:00:46 global warming, you know 01:01:00 *I* know, but has the weather been warned? 01:01:21 last I knew, the sun had passed the peak of its radiation cycle... 01:01:49 the real cold winters are gone, years ago every five years or so the Alster was frozen 01:02:21 I bet on those days coming back soon 01:02:43 did you see the link I've posted on c.l.l about BUILD ? 01:02:47 in any case, I welcome comments on the xcvb code itself 01:02:52 nope 01:03:36 ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/pdf/AITR-874.pdf 01:03:52 BUILD: A tool for maintaining consistency in modular systems 01:03:52 by Richard Elliot Robbins, 1985 01:05:54 thanks! 01:06:33 Lisp: or how to reinvent the wheel over and over again. 01:07:04 "but at least, now it's perfectly circular to the nanometer!" 01:07:23 (until you go on an actual road with it) 01:07:48 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["time to sleep"] 01:07:54 the Fraser river here is frozen... people are saying they've never seen this much ice on it. 01:08:12 I have to chip the ice away from around the boat every couple of hours! 01:08:16 maybe it wasn't told about global warming. 01:08:33 why don't rivers read newspapers? 01:08:51 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit ["Leaving..."] 01:09:01 global warming seems to only apply to cooler places ... we used to have a mild climate here before al gore and his climate change! 01:09:17 -!- tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@unaffiliated/tc-rucho] has left #lisp 01:09:26 well, the good thing with a really frozen Alster is that then there is a christmas market on the river with Glühwein and Würstchen etc. 01:09:37 with some 100k people on the river 01:09:52 what if it only freezes in january? 01:09:57 lispm: we've been drinking a lot of Glühwein :) 01:10:15 wine made out of glue? 01:10:22 unfortunately it happens now maybe once every ten years 01:10:35 drwec: you are red here, no wonder 01:12:29 I read that some people complain about Ruby gems that the mechanism is a language specific model 01:12:41 while there is already RPM, APT, ... 01:12:50 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:13:17 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@062016209191.customer.alfanett.no] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 01:13:57 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:14:10 should I be reading about Ruby gems? Chicken eggs? Java beans? 01:14:24 scons 01:14:28 omake 01:15:13 lispm: that's not the main issue with the gems 01:15:23 what is it? 01:15:32 scones, omelette 01:16:00 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:16:14 as I understand xcvb does not compile in its image, but forks a new image? 01:16:35 currrently it doesn't even fork -- it lets make do it 01:16:44 make? 01:16:57 so it generates make files 01:17:07 and then invokes those? 01:17:12 yes 01:17:37 Genera has no make 01:17:40 Fare: I can't seem to clone your repo... 01:17:50 joke 01:18:00 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-40a4b077c9175b83] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:18:08 sykopomp: oops. Try xcvb.git.old 01:18:21 what error do you get? 01:18:50 does make build a whole 'system' then or indivudual components? 01:19:00 I couldn't check out xcvb either (git.old works); warning: remote HEAD refers to nonexistent ref, unable to checkout. 01:19:00 fatal: http://c-l.net.../xcvb.git/info/refs not found: did you run git update-server-info on the server? 01:19:10 how do i do that? 01:19:30 it seems it wants you to run 'git update-server-info' on the server. 01:19:31 just did 01:19:41 does it work better? 01:19:46 hm. Nope. Still dead. 01:20:14 I kept a copy of the bare repo in xcvb.git.old 01:20:23 fe[nl]ix: you could answer my question about the gem issue sometime, when it is less late here 01:20:25 what is the correct way to make it not bare? 01:20:41 git clone http://common-lisp.net/project/xcvb/xcvb.git/.git works for me... 01:20:47 Fare: the link to the git repo you gave doesn't actually seem to be a git repo, but just a copy of the actual files in it. 01:20:52 *sykopomp* tries that. 01:21:01 yeah. that works. 01:21:33 Fare: http://www.bluishcoder.co.nz/2007/09/how-to-publish-git-repository.html goes through all the steps 01:21:50 lispm: gems are ill-designed. they do not have separate phases for setup, compilation, test and installation which are necessary for distributors in order to make packages 01:22:34 fe[nl]ix: so it is kind of a successful hack? 01:22:49 *meingbg* feels like a free bird after switching to sbcl 01:23:22 I have to admit, it would be nice to be able to integrate a build system with a package manager, instead of having the build system also be its own little package manager... :( 01:23:42 meingbg: can we do a wicked guitar duet now? 01:23:57 (for the next 20 minutes or so) 01:24:05 sykopomp: sure. 01:24:11 sweet 01:24:22 *meingbg* isn't quite sure what he just said yes to 01:24:41 lispm: yes, and a very problematic one for distros. they work (more or less) if you just have your home server and want to type "gem install " 01:25:15 meingbg: (the song. Free Bird) 01:25:23 fe[nl]ix, thanks, I will read a bit about it, sounds 'interesting' ;-) 01:25:25 sykopomp: Oh, I see. 01:26:34 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has quit ["later"] 01:27:47 crazy, somebody mentioned that there is a MacPlus emulator for the iPhone 01:28:06 and that he wants to try Macintosh Common Lisp with it - ha! 01:32:13 Fare: kudos. xcvb really looks like something that would be nice for regular package managers to use. I'm reading through the docs :) 01:34:57 Fare: although I sort of liked not spamming up my source files with module import statements. Oh well :( 01:35:26 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:35:52 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:38:07 Fare: still thinking that git is less pain? :) 01:38:13 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:38:39 less pain that what? 01:38:46 darcs 01:39:30 although the question is rhetoric... 01:39:58 ugh 01:40:01 is darcs fast yet? 01:40:07 yes 01:40:19 generic question, generic answer :) 01:41:59 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:02 I think the basic reason languages grow their own package management is that there is no standard interface to OS package managers, and often no way to get-and-install a package as non-admin, so it's easier to solve the "grab the deps for the program I want to run" problem by writing your own. also the problem of the naming scheme for packages (how do you identify what to grab), and installation (hooking it into the dynamic loading mechanism 01:42:09 :) 01:42:14 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a18-024.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:42:37 ...it's certainly fast enough for my daily use, even through ssh, especially with ssh controlmaster. and i have a darcs mirror of the sbcl tree with full history... 01:44:14 kpreid: actually, i think site_perl and /usr/local sum it up: package maintainers are cargo-cult idiots 01:44:18 so all packages cause problems 01:44:31 meanwhile languages think it's the maintainers' fault (rather than whatever causes the problem) 01:44:33 cause problems for whom? 01:45:02 things like name collisions (who owns /usr/local/bin/xferstats?) 01:45:13 or the merger (who owns /usr/lib/perl5/site_perl?) 01:45:16 ah, well, name collisions are a different problem :-) 01:45:58 or the system administrator (where does those .server files go again?) 01:46:24 I think you're looking at a different set of problems than I was 01:46:47 maybe 01:47:02 i think package management is hard 01:47:22 i think a lot of people think it's easy, which is why there are so many package management systems that suck equally 01:48:18 the thing is, .deb, or .rpm or whatever; the reason apt and rpm work is because the debian group (or the fedora group) go through a lot of trouble to work out differences between all the packages 01:48:36 they treat it as a merge system; merging the third party package into the fedora os (or the debian os) 01:48:48 this invariably causes problems because the *developer* wants to package and distribute themselves 01:49:05 the problem is that the two goals are incompatible: third party rpms simply suck. 01:49:44 geocar: the developers want what ?? 01:49:47 people want gems to use the rpm database; or perl modules to uninstall system modules (UNINST=1 is some people's default!) 01:50:56 fe[nl]ix: developers build software, then a user wants to use it with their system; some developers make installers, or instructions to merge, but they're in a difficult situation of handling many different systems on many different platforms 01:51:09 the package maintainer (in the debian or fedora sense) doesn't have this problem: they only have to handle one system 01:51:13 upstream-be-damned 01:51:50 so as a result, on debian apache is called apache2, and on fedora apache is called httpd, and if you download and install apache from apache's website, *and follow their directions*, apache simply doesn't work 01:51:53 geocar: the developers who actually build packages are *very* few 01:52:10 fe[nl]ix: well, on linuxish and unixish systems, yes, but on windows and macosx, they're the norm 01:52:36 geocar: wellcome to the world of customizable software 01:52:37 Quadresce` [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:58 ruby developers make their own gems; python developers make eggs; 01:53:05 perl developers make a mess 01:53:19 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:53:29 lisp developers make a different kind of egg, or a plt package, or a bucket of asd files and a works-for-me sign 01:53:33 -!- Quadresce` is now known as Quadrescence 01:54:05 no, i think many developers (outside of enterprise developers) make packages 01:54:15 the difference is that python eggs are flexible enough that debian, fedora or gentoo maintainers can package them without many problems 01:54:28 geocar: so as a guy with an opinion on these matters, what do you say: let's say I'm designing a language (platform) and support infrastructure. what *should* I do about library dependencies / installation? assume that there are no extra bits like installed executables 01:55:15 the issue with gems isn't that ruby people made them, but that they're *very* ill-designed 01:55:46 fe[nl]ix: oh i agree! i just don't think ruby people can do better; seriously my deploy script for my farm has (echo y; echo 1; echo 15...) | gem install ... 01:55:48 it's a mess 01:56:07 kpreid: i've thought about it some, and i think slashpackage was on to something 01:56:17 it's not perfect; most notably it doesn't support non-root installs 01:56:48 but library-upgrades were handled well by version-locking; assuming newer versions were incompatible unless they were explicitly marked compatible 01:57:23 of course they can do better, but it's as is they had designed Gems without learning *anything* from other package systems 01:58:46 fe[nl]ix: well, that's a bit unfair; they download files and dependencies (sortof) 01:59:01 i guess it's probably like they designed gems by *looking at screenshots* of someone else using apt-get or something 01:59:16 and "guessed" how it works 01:59:34 kpreid: debconf is also worth study; 02:00:00 kpreid: packages eventually need to ask questions, and if i've got 100 machines to install this app or library on, i want to answer it once 02:00:56 ths__ [n=ths@X6252.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 02:01:08 kpreid: be especially considerate of installing examples; the hunchentoot examples (for example) depend on hunchentoot, so ideally the user would asdf-install hunchentoot-examples and not hunchentoot 02:01:21 nevertheless, hunchentoot is somebodies library, while hunchentoot-examples is nobody's library 02:01:58 Ideally, we wouldn't use ASDF :( 02:02:13 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AE146.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:02:14 a wise package maintainer can use this as an opportunity to make hunchentoot available as a dependency, while giving the installer the ability to mark hunchentoot-examples as not (and thus not follow changes to it when calculating upgrades) 02:02:22 what's wrong with asdf? convince me most of the proposed solutions won't make things worse. 02:02:25 geocar: have you seen NixOS ? 02:02:59 Fare: no 02:03:10 i mean, i'm aware of its existence, but i haven't downloaded it and looked at it critically 02:03:15 sykopomp: what would you use ? 02:03:43 hefner: i won't suggest that there is something better than asdf, or that there is an easy (or hard) solution to asdf's problems 02:05:25 fe[nl]ix: mudballs. Although xcvb looks nice for building bigger stuff (and integrating installations with the native package manager, as opposed to fetching stuff into its own little package-maintained world) 02:05:33 hefner: but for starters, there's no make clean 02:05:46 never missed it. 02:06:07 hefner: porting hun to ecl took a long time (ecl is slow to begin with) -longer still especially because i had to clean up after every attempt 02:06:20 hmm... does find return the left-most element if :from-end is nil? 02:06:29 sykopomp, I don't understand why mudballs reinvents defsystem 02:06:37 sykopomp, and how it competes with clbuild 02:06:49 it looks like a non-started 02:06:52 non-starter 02:07:04 the spec says right-most if :from-end is t, but it doesn't seem to explicitly require left-most otherwise. 02:07:25 Fare: mudballs actually uses lisp. As opposed to being a separate shell script. It's also (meant) to be more extensible and flexible than asdf is (so he claims on his page) 02:08:02 heh, not missing make clean? i've thought there's no single lisp user without an rmfasl shell function... :) 02:08:10 Fare: It also supports module versioning, which is a great way to handle the conflict I've had where I'm fetching -some- libraries with clbuild, and -some- libraries with asdf-install. 02:08:47 Fare: there was talk on its mailing list about handling fetching from version control, like clbuild does, and handling versions for that. This would be more than welcome in my book. 02:09:04 ideally, asdf could detect a change and rebuild the changed portions 02:09:10 but it just doesn't work reliably 02:09:30 does it provide an automated upgrade path from asdf, or does the defsystem conversion have to be maintained by hand? 02:09:36 Fare: nix is very interesting (i'm trying to look at it closely now) 02:09:42 geocar: xcvb will do that for you 02:09:52 Fare: that's what got me interested :) 02:09:56 (reliable incremental build) 02:10:28 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 02:10:32 Fare: It doesn't seem to have an automated upgrade path, but it maps almost directly to asdf, so it was a matter of copying everything, adding a few parens, changing a few options, and slapping a new extension on the file. 02:10:44 btw, I'm looking for speakers for the Boston Lisp Meeting in January and February 02:10:56 Fare: one thing i've thought about a lot is rejecting an install-step; or at least not require it be mandatory 02:11:01 meaning, you could most probably write something that automatically writes mudballs based on asdfs 02:11:10 geocar: what do you mean by install-step ? 02:11:14 i'd much prefer a "deploy" step that either makes a tarfile I can unpack (someplace?) on a remote (or many remote) systems 02:11:19 like make build ; make install ? 02:11:22 instead of installing into ~ or the local system 02:11:53 geocar: I think xcvb can do that... eventually 02:11:55 yes; most of the projects i track, i have my 'load-path filled with git and darcs and svn source directories 02:12:00 i don't install anything 02:12:01 xcvb needs a big rewrite 02:12:03 (ever) 02:12:06 Fare: it's depressing. I've been trying to get to the meeting for months now. Now there's three of us in the potential carpool from western mass, and it's starting to sound like we might miss January, too. Hehehe. 02:12:19 i do however write shellscripts that deploy whatever i'm working on to my server farm 02:12:25 why miss it? 02:12:51 I recently decided that I had written too many shell scripts in my life. 02:12:53 some are x86 and some are amd64 (and some used to be sparc, but i finally put an end to that) so there was a fair amount of cross compiling involved; developers rarely make that easy... 02:12:58 I want to have CLSH 02:12:59 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:13:08 that's next on meta.ph's list. 02:13:25 Fare: it's an all-day commitment for us, considering the timing, and it's always ended up being a situation where one of us can't go. 02:13:45 what about only 2 people coming? 02:13:59 it was only 2 of us. It recently grew to 3 02:13:59 maybe add a friend of mine to the pool... do you know tom novelli? 02:14:15 and before november, gas was too expensive, and I too broke, to go alone. 02:14:27 Fare: no, I do not. Does he live in the amherst/northampton area? 02:14:36 more like springfield 02:14:47 gotta go now 02:14:49 -!- NoorDextor [n=Game450@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:14:53 alright, bye 02:15:02 if work permits, I'll try again January :P 02:15:05 I'll read the git page. In the meantime, I welcome discussions on the xcvb-devel mailing-list 02:17:03 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:17:31 Fare: as an observer, I would recommend keeping VCS discussion in #lisp or other IRC venue 02:18:27 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:19:09 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:19:41 (hooray, yet another c-l.net mailing list0 02:21:38 er, "We hope to have a complete release with example and documentation ready for showing at ILC'09 by March 2008."? 02:22:13 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 02:22:32 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:39 So, does anyone have any info on how one might show up for ILC? Do you just show up at the door? Do you need tickets? etc. 02:25:40 sykopomp: there is an e-mail at the ilc web-page 02:28:11 wasabi_________1 [n=wasabi@ntoska214050.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:29:46 stassats: I'm hoping I'm not missing something important. This is an open conference that people can just attend, right? Or do you need to have a submission accepted to go?... Or something like that? 02:30:05 stassats: Just checking I'm not making a fool of myself before writing the e-mail :) 02:30:11 sykopomp: i suggest you to ask that questio by that e-mail 02:31:50 stassats: very well, thank. 02:31:51 s 02:33:19 http://international-lisp-conference.org/2007/registration 02:33:31 that how it was in 2007 02:33:37 sykopomp: you could use a mailinator.com address if you wanted : 02:34:19 MrTree [n=marc@ip-62-143-187-22.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 02:35:04 stassats: thank you, that's what I was hoping to figure out :) 02:35:55 is it just me, or is it not very cheap? 02:36:06 it's not very cheap 02:36:39 damnit, and next semester's the first time I won't be a full-time student during a school semester, in my entire life >:( 02:36:52 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:58 rottcodd_ [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:50 maybe you'd get a discount if you gave a presentation 02:39:02 "how i got to ilc for cab fare and an mc hammer cd" 02:39:03 I'm a newbie :) 02:39:31 "newbie perspective of ilc" 02:39:36 I might try and put an "I'm in transition" spin on it. 02:39:42 an according to the website, submission deadline is over 02:39:47 sounds like it's a great opportunity for meta-recursion 02:40:39 stassats: and i suppose they're done giving out sombreros as well! 02:41:13 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:41:17 damn capitalists 02:41:44 -!- _ace4016_ is now known as ace4016 02:42:34 sykopomp: actually, it says student rate applies *at time of registration*, so it might work out, no? 02:44:03 geocar: I'm not a student as of today. :P 02:44:20 Nocebojin [n=shaun@CPE-124-186-227-195.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 02:44:44 sykopomp: well shit then. 02:45:11 geocar: I'll try and talk to them about it. They might be flexible about stuff. Plus, $200 is still more than nothing, right? 02:47:01 i dunno how they are; i used to sneak into usenix conferences 02:47:24 but beardy unix guys will do anything for a donut 02:47:44 i don't know how ilc is 02:48:45 let us know how it goes 02:48:54 heh, thanks 02:49:38 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:51:41 "PostgreSQL 8.3.4 Documentation" .. ho-hum .. 1934 pages .. and i thought Common Lisp was big :) 02:53:15 in fairness, common lisp doesn't include a handy acronym chart 02:56:19 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.192] has joined #lisp 03:02:57 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:03:02 that's a shame, considering the trouble some people have with CAR and CDR 03:03:34 -!- rottcodd_ [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:03:48 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:07:51 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:10:49 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 03:11:51 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 03:16:04 i always thought this hypothetical peoples' car and cdr problems were exaggerated 03:17:41 the same people have no problem with "list files" being pronounced "ls", 03:17:44 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:20 ..or having to use "lst" instead of just "list" as variable names for their, well, lists 03:24:08 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:24:17 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:06 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:26:26 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:27:13 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:29:24 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:30:33 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:31:52 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 03:34:38 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:37:42 ok, I'll try fixing the git repo, now 03:39:38 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:39:44 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 03:40:16 mulligan [n=user@e178044068.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 03:40:31 should be working now, hopefully... 03:42:07 nope 03:42:40 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 03:42:47 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 03:44:09 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 03:44:22 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 03:45:33 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:54:34 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 03:59:50 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:38 Soulman__ [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 04:02:57 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:03:34 bit` [n=bit@c-71-193-240-79.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:04 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:04:05 Fare: you've got it working 04:04:10 I could successfully git clone http://common-lisp.net/project/xcvb/xcvb.git 04:04:52 ditto. Successfully cloned here. 04:08:38 wasabi_________2 [n=wasabi@ntoska309205.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:10:34 can you redo it NOW? 04:11:12 because I changed things so it should be BOTH clonable and browsable 04:11:24 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:11:29 -!- Nocebojin [n=shaun@CPE-124-186-227-195.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:11:53 doesn't clone for me 04:12:14 grrrr 04:12:33 I can't get it to be both cloneable and browseable :( 04:13:37 the best option is to convince cl.net admins to set up gitweb for git repositories 04:14:18 Fare: you could also set up a mirror of your repo in repo.or.cz or github 04:14:18 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a6f-250.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:14:36 sykopomp, probably should. Sigh. 04:15:01 Fare: it's a darcs lisp world :( 04:15:29 gah 04:15:33 git is popular too 04:15:39 it's a bang my head against the wall world 04:15:41 (in lisp world) 04:15:55 stassats: do you have an account on cl.net? 04:16:02 Fare: no 04:16:14 *stassats* uses github 04:16:21 *sykopomp* does too 04:16:22 I'll leave it bare on cl.net 04:16:38 if you want it not bare, clone it on github or repo.or.cz 04:16:42 which should I use? 04:16:52 I like github. It's pretty. 04:17:01 I haven't tried repo.or 04:17:46 stassats: mind if I follow you? 04:18:38 sykopomp: sure, though there is no yet anything intersting 04:19:11 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.193.103] has quit [No route to host] 04:22:51 maodun [n=stopgo@c-67-180-49-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:05 -!- wasabi_________1 [n=wasabi@ntoska214050.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:32:11 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 04:35:53 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 04:36:31 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@c-66-30-114-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:40:28 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:45:19 hey everyone 04:46:59 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.192] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:51:47 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-101-69.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:51:49 -!- MrTree [n=marc@ip-62-143-187-22.unitymediagroup.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:52:23 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-101-69.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:21 Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:56:31 http://github.com/fare/xcvb/tree/master 04:56:53 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:56:57 debugger invoked on a SIMPLE-ERROR: 04:56:57 number too large to print in English: 80,658,175,170,943,878,571,660,636,856,403,766,975,289,505,440,883,277,824,000,000,000,000 04:56:58 hehe 04:56:59 :> 04:57:37 that looks like a large number. 05:01:16 how do i (macroexpand '(setq thing1 1)) 05:02:01 setq is not a macro 05:02:08 oops.. that a (define-symbol-macro thing1 (first *things)) was used 05:02:27 then setq is treated as setf 05:03:10 cute: (macroexpand '(setf thing1 1)) => (SETQ THING1 1) ;P 05:03:48 wasabi_________3 [n=wasabi@ntoska149014.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:04:15 lessee: (macroexpand 'THING1) => (FIRST *THINGS) 05:05:55 what i am shooting for is to make sets (jcall "set" *JO* value) and symbol-value (jcall "get" *JO*) 05:06:40 so i neeed to make like a setf expander? to do the get/set and then define-symbol-macro to mess with something? 05:06:59 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:07:56 Vratha [n=grimw@ool-4356a143.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:17 the 'first in: (define-symbol-macro thing1 (first *things)) is becasue 'first contains a understandanding the get/sets right? 05:08:23 qbg [n=quickbas@74.33.102.125] has joined #lisp 05:08:33 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.192] has joined #lisp 05:08:37 'first is an ~accessor~ right? 05:09:32 so (first *things) has an implicit setf expansion? like a few other things 05:09:49 (get-setf-expansion '(first list)) => ... 05:10:26 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.94.2.211] has joined #lisp 05:10:55 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a6f-250.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:10:56 ok nice 05:11:10 -!- qbg [n=quickbas@74.33.102.125] has quit [Client Quit] 05:12:05 so pretty much i need to set the format for (get-set-jo *JO* ) <- (jcall "set" *JO* value) (jcall "get" *JO*) ? 05:13:20 ok finally found examples of define-setf-expander 05:14:06 you can also do (defun (setf get-set-jo) (value object) (jcall "set" object value)) 05:15:02 oh then it's mainly the setting part that needs the meta-logic .. the getting part just works as it is supposed to 05:15:40 -!- Vratha [n=grimw@ool-4356a143.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:17:41 -!- quamaretto [n=millij@70.228.181.114] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:18:01 millij [n=millij@70.228.181.114] has joined #lisp 05:19:02 well, your getter oughtn't reeval stuff 05:19:14 because that would be bad 05:19:18 (defun jo-value (object) (jcall "get" object))(defun (setf jo-value) (value object) (jcall "set" object value)) 05:20:00 -!- wasabi_________2 [n=wasabi@ntoska309205.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:16 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:21:23 -!- elurin` [n=user@85.99.65.141] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:45 what i am working for here is to be able to: (define-symbol-macro %myfieldval (jo-value *myJO*)) 05:21:58 then %myfieldval can be set and read 05:22:58 oh i dunno it java field might get changed by something other than my lisp program .. so maybe it needs re-read? 05:23:21 it/it's 05:23:27 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a16-094.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:24:45 that makes %myfieldval equivalent to (jo-value *myJO*) ; (setf (jo-value *myJO*) xxx) still has to work 05:24:47 Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 05:26:06 if it doesn't, symbol macros won't even enter into it 05:26:45 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:26:57 geocar, ah.. good to know. ok in a sec i'll pastebin what i am doing incorperating that 05:28:20 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:29 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:31:43 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:32:10 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.74.152] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:34:14 patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:54 hey S11001001 05:37:59 greetings 05:38:46 just wake up an hour ago, 11PM :-) handed over a website project and just kicking back now 05:39:09 i can tell you what went wrong for me with weblocks in a bit 05:39:33 it works fine on my development box, but i haven _identical_ vps server and it refuses to work there 05:40:30 were you running identical Weblocks? 05:40:33 the two machines are the same. i make sure i rsync the entire OS to the server (why do it twice?) 05:41:04 the identical one didn't work, here is what it told me when I sid (asdf:oos :asdf:load-op :weblocks) 05:41:39 brianj_otter [n=brianj@wsip-24-234-224-152.lv.lv.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:32 it's loading now. thing is, i always run self-maintained code on a production machine. everything in the server is copied from dev first. 05:42:36 -!- geocar [n=user@pool-71-255-188-128.slsbmd.east.verizon.net] has quit ["naptime"] 05:43:11 and even dev is a staging ground, a clean slackware box which itself just "runs" production code in my basement. i do all my work on a windows laptop. 05:43:29 hmm 05:43:35 I hack on Clozure/amd64 05:43:46 on linux? 05:43:47 hfsbo.com is deployed on sbcl/x86 05:43:47 dmiles pasted "What should my macro look like ?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72436 05:43:49 yep 05:44:39 are you using anything from bknr? 05:44:57 NOPE! 05:45:25 all the systems i have installed are what is asdf-installed to run weblocks only 05:45:47 ugh, asdf-install 05:45:54 + elephant, slime, rucksack, ml-base, cl-mime. that's all. 05:46:31 appletizer [i=a@82-32-122-46.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:46:33 which weblocks are you running again? 05:47:02 sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 05:48:18 well, now it's saying "failed to find the TRUENAME of /usr/local/lib/sbcl/weblocks/weblocks-demo.lisp:" 05:48:50 weblocks-stable-778384ad4830.zip 05:50:31 in the restarts should mention which file is loading; what is it? 05:51:40 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:52:23 bloody hell 05:52:26 it works now 05:52:33 wtf? 05:53:32 S11001001: while i have you here with me (just figured out who you're, good to know you're around mate! thanks :-) 05:53:53 Ashy [n=User@220.157.86.160] has joined #lisp 05:53:54 just walk me through the *store* spec stuff 05:54:18 i'm gonna try to make a new app and see where it broke last time 05:54:25 throws it all at the backend 05:57:00 ahhh, it's here 05:57:27 so for elephant you pass :spec () where () is whatever elephant:open-store takes 05:59:55 what is the proper way to make a running server change? 06:00:00 say, i added a new widget 06:00:24 do i delete the all session? asdf-load it again, just eval the new expression in emacs? 06:00:25 mostly, reset-sessions 06:00:35 though it depends 06:00:53 if you just change a render method or a flow that is not in the middle of execution, then leave it 06:01:28 I often change initargs of widgets, so unless I can easily arrange for the widget to be recreated (e.g. inside a flow), I have to reset the session 06:02:19 mulligan` [n=user@e178044068.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 06:02:41 the only reason I ever have to load from scratch is if I have been removing methods and forgot which ones I removed, or I need to change a class's class 06:03:10 dmiles annotated #72436 with "ignore the above - but help with this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72436#1 06:03:21 -!- Eleanore [n=a@ip215131.lbinternet.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:04:56 i just made a new app and it's running. the app is called "foo", but i can't find it under http://localhost/foo or just localhost/ 06:05:18 / returns weblocks-default 06:05:41 weblocks::*active-webapps* 06:06:04 (#) 06:06:18 Does anyone know how to get ecl with asdf:make-build on Windows to compile an EXE? I get either seg-faults or a zero-byte EXE at the command line and "clean run" under slime but no EXE at all. 06:06:19 weblocks::*autostarting-webapps* 06:07:05 NIL 06:07:13 paste thy defwebapp 06:07:58 fusss pasted "stock defwebapp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72438 06:08:00 dmiles_afk: are jfield and (setf jfield) ordinary functions? 06:08:11 er that is a defpackage 06:08:14 defwebapp? 06:08:38 fusss annotated #72438 with "sorry" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72438#1 06:09:05 okay, how did you start the app? 06:09:23 S11001001, jfield is an ordinary function.. maybe i can make a setf expander specifically for jfield and thats sufficent? 06:09:38 (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :foo) after setting *central-registry* appropriately. then (foo:start-foo) 06:09:57 dmiles_afk: even if jfield is, (setf jfield) may not be an ordinary function, in which case yes 06:10:33 (define-symbol-macro %iscold (jfield "org.armedbear.lisp.Lisp" "cold")) 06:10:38 gets me4 started in a way 06:10:45 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:11:00 i just dont understand how to make the etter part operate 06:11:05 setter part 06:11:37 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [No route to host] 06:11:59 jfield becomes a setter like (jfield "org.armedbear.lisp.Lisp" "cold" newValue) 06:12:04 fusss: ah, that would clearly be confusing 06:12:19 :autostart nil was added without changing the start-* func 06:12:36 so what can I fix? 06:13:16 put (weblocks:start-webapp 'foo) in the start-foo function 06:13:28 on '%iscold i can store info in the plist if that helps? 06:13:35 dmiles_afk: no need 06:13:44 crod [n=cmell@cb8a16-094.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:14:11 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a16-094.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:14:25 dmiles_afk: probably the problem is just that (setf jfield) requires constant arg0 and arg1; using long form defsetf will fix it 06:15:20 fusss: then just eval that 06:15:42 HELLYEAH! 06:15:48 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:15:49 haha :-P thanks mate! 06:16:19 i should read the sources but had really no time 06:18:20 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 06:18:40 S11001001: do you have a watchdog for the sbcl process or is your server under dailly maintenance? 06:19:06 no watchdog 06:19:07 i was gonna hack together a cron job thinggie 06:19:42 I guess I could put "while true; do sbcl; sleep 10; done" or something 06:21:51 tbqh you won't get far unless you're willing to chase M-. to look at available slot docs and find weird GFs to extend and stuff; I never use the HTML docs 06:21:52 after do sbcl; echo >> logfile; sleep 10... 06:22:44 do sbcl; echo 'you are a jerk okay?' >> logfile; sleepytime=$((5+sleepytime)); sleep $sleepytime 06:22:45 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:23:02 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 06:23:03 i think `start-stop-daemon' has a features that create .pid-files in /var/run or something .. it has a feature which polls whether the pid goes down too 06:23:18 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:29 or .. hum .. that might have been something else .. the checking i mean 06:23:55 dmiles annotated #72436 with "defsetf long form correct?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72436#2 06:26:53 oh 06:26:56 maybe I should read 06:27:05 put the value *before* the other args 06:27:18 then your defun (setf ...) will work 06:27:36 also you don't need the "object" arg at all 06:27:40 just the value 06:27:58 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 06:30:25 -!- wasabi_________3 [n=wasabi@ntoska149014.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:32:41 wasabi_________3 [n=wasabi@ntoska149014.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:34:12 NoorDextor [n=Game450@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 06:35:00 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 06:42:00 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-245-231.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:45:08 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 06:45:10 dmiles annotated #72436 with "Oh duh, I forgot that defsetf is a MACRO :)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72436#3 06:48:43 S11001001, so there is a short form of this you think? 06:49:29 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has joined #lisp 06:49:38 I am confused as to why you are redefining jfield 06:50:15 i i was thinking the defsetf has to align to the original arglist.. 06:50:45 i actaully didnt redefine JFIELD at all 06:51:16 but it looks that way since my defsetf uses the orignal arglist in the declaration 06:52:25 jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:35 my goal is : 06:52:36 (define-symbol-macro %iscold (jfield "org.armedbear.lisp.Lisp" "cold")) 06:53:10 (setq %iscold (jfield "java.lang.Boolean" "TRUE")) 06:53:42 so that setq calls: (jfield "org.armedbear.lisp.Lisp" "cold" (jfield "java.lang.Boolean" "TRUE")) 06:53:46 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:54:42 but i am getting: Message: Got Lisp Error: Caught com.cyc.tool.subl.jrtl.nativeCode.type.exception.SubLException: Got Lisp Error: illegal argument. 06:55:27 oh odd: (jfield "org.armedbear.lisp.Lisp" "cold" (jfield "java.lang.Boolean" "TRUE")) gets the same error .. so that might be correct 06:57:08 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-44.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:57:51 unless i am accidently tainting the definition of JFIELD? the way i made my defsetf? .. oh your S11001001, why i am defining it twice.. i just noting they both seem to be ok 06:58:35 S11001001: which of the many ASDs in weblock do i need to make links for in my site-systems? 06:58:38 okay, the original is fine 06:58:41 S11001001, in CYC(1) and CYC(4) , yeah i was just expermenting with those two forms 06:58:50 dmiles_afk: but I think your defun (setf ...) will work if you take out the "object" arg 06:59:06 S11001001, the one way at top? 06:59:22 fusss: weblocks and whatever store you use 06:59:25 dmiles_afk: yes 07:00:43 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-44.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Client Quit] 07:04:40 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:36 S11001001: thanks so much for the help 07:06:42 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 07:08:50 Vratha_ [n=grimw@ool-4356a143.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:18 does anybody have any experience building ECL .exe's in Windows? 07:11:56 hmm, would someone mind dig www.hfsbo.com and tell me A records? 07:12:34 S11001001, it has none :( 07:13:09 S11001001: everydns.net, been happy with them for 3 years. free too :-) 07:14:33 can someone tell me if i really need to learn xml or just coast of whatever i know of html and sexps? 07:15:07 S11001001: dig hfsbo.com and get A 74.137.170.92 ... the www is missing 07:15:32 CNAME it 07:15:42 or do a wildcard dns * 07:16:58 thanks 07:17:32 guy let the account expire 07:18:26 S11001001: who did that graphic? 07:18:40 dunno, got it from the owner 07:18:48 though I had to tweak it a little 07:19:12 Phoodus, i have built it a couple times like three years ago 07:19:55 i have been learning graphics for the past week; inkscape and paint.net. gfx is hard. 07:20:08 dmiles_afk: we've been having real issues, following the asdf make-build stuff exactly. Do you remember any gotchas? 07:20:26 Phoodus, first time try to build under cygwin for saniy 07:20:38 no no, not building ECL. Making .exe's using ECL 07:20:46 standalone lisp executables 07:20:55 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-187-226.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:20:58 Phoodus, ah.. i see, yeah that i havent done 07:21:04 -!- replaca [n=tom@76-191-193-111.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:21:08 replaca [n=tom@76-191-193-111.dsl.dynamic.sonic.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:13 Phoodus, maybe not a heavily tested feature 07:21:17 yeah, I was just about to say 07:21:44 well, scratch Windows as a target for us I guess, since ECL is the only threaded windows lisp 07:22:10 Phoodus, ABCL is 07:22:18 ABCL is not lightweight 07:22:32 i even have ABCL running in C# 07:22:32 we're spawning child processes. With ABCL, each would have its own JVM 07:22:34 Phoodus: i wouldn't hesitate to call lispworks. for something like $500 you get the whole shebang. 07:23:01 Phoodus, if your doing that then you dont need threads ;P 07:23:05 Does lispworks price per seat or per executable? 07:23:07 corman lisp has full native threads too :-) 07:23:14 yeah, I think we might need commercial, because nobody open source seems to care about getting Windows versions to work 07:23:18 brianj_otter: you get a license and it's all yours 07:23:23 Hmm. 07:24:06 the sales person i talk with is _very_ knowledgeable too. she gave me a full pro version up front, no deposit nothing. 07:24:08 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:24:30 Phoodus, well maybe lisp should launch sub interpreter threads.. not whole new procs 07:24:53 Erlang is the controller, and it spawns commandline sub-workers. Some of them will be threaded 07:24:55 i didn't even ask to evaluate it. i gave them "comments" to download the trial version and they contacted me back. 07:25:01 Phoodus, a shared VM would be nice between your lightwieght spawns 07:25:21 the separate processes are also part of the robustness management 07:25:35 as well as allowing any language to be used 07:25:37 Phoodus, right you want to be able to doeighter or 07:26:12 -!- bougyman [i=bougyman@bougyman.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:26:20 ECL is also horribly spammy, and that messes with the stdio communications 07:26:59 but is any lisp lightwiegth enough for a whole new process? 07:27:03 so we basically need a Windows lisp that can shut up during startup, natively threads, and can make snapshot/scripted runtimes 07:27:17 which probably means commercial 07:27:19 (again) 07:27:53 if you devel a small lightwiegth .exe written in lisp you just want to make sure the runtime is very lieghtweigh (if its compiled agaist a shared runtime) 07:27:53 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:28:14 Allegro i am sure gets that request all the time 07:28:18 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:32 ECL is supposed to be very lightweight 07:29:03 question: should a lisp program that only (princ "Hello World") need the lisp runtime? 07:29:22 no, that'd probably be a shell script :) 07:29:33 but we do have existing lisp code that want to hang off this thing 07:29:38 dmiles_afk: with a decent tree-shaker you should come up with something tiny 07:30:37 fusss: heh yeah interesting 07:30:47 fusss: go implement one for sbcl 07:31:24 S11001001: is that before or after my lisp for adobe flash? :-P 07:31:32 first 07:31:35 frell flash 07:31:52 fusss: are there tree shakers for CL/SBCL? 07:32:04 Phoodus: wait a year and opencyc will have a native compiler 07:32:14 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:32:19 buh? 07:32:26 (and I thought your nick looked familiar) 07:32:41 ok now that you insist, i will go ahead and make an scathing rant to sbcl-devel. give me a few weeks to whip the yobos to shape and have them make something for ya. 07:32:47 Phoodus: we are working on a way to make a SL2C that is lightwiegth enough 07:33:06 right now SL2C requires the SubLisp kernel to link agaist 07:33:36 but it prodces C code from Lisp.. more independant than most lisps 07:33:39 ah, I haven't played with Cyc's lower levels 07:33:54 it was based on EcoLisp 07:34:10 everyone bitches about commercial compilers, until they have to write a proposal for a big fat contract and there is a clause for long-term 3rd party support 07:35:13 evening 07:35:29 Phoodus: but everything takes so long in cyc/opencyc.. but there goal is to separate the lisp system from the cyc engine that it hosts 07:35:49 and then make that lisp system opensrc 07:36:43 btw, can Cyc reason over more facts than it can hold in ram? 07:37:02 or does it just load all "current" MTs and do everything in memory? 07:37:12 Phoodus: the 64bit version can hold an awefull lot in ram 07:37:21 it pretends its all in memory 07:37:30 but can it reason over disk? 07:37:47 but in reality it is reasoning over alot of lazy stuff from the disk 07:38:09 so on a 4GB system, I could reason over a 1TB factbase (albeit slowly) 07:38:14 but one depth first can bring all the disk in ram pretty quick 07:38:28 yeah technically is should be able tyo do that 07:38:33 whoa, cool 07:38:47 what's the "technically" imply? ;) 07:39:07 the 64bit version using the disk for the factbase and ram for the trail space it could 07:39:28 what's the trail space? 07:39:56 its the evninoment frames that need to be unwound on unification retries 07:40:15 alot like PAIP version of prolog 07:40:16 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 07:40:41 yep, taht's what ours is based on too 07:41:09 so depends on how facts are orginaized.. a query can do what you want ussually w/o seeing all 1TB.. but other times it might need to visit all of it 07:41:17 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:41:44 the nice thing about cyc .. is at every entry to unification calls there are hooks that can do something smart 07:42:27 of course, we are depriving #opencyc of very rare activity ;) 07:42:29 pull things from a memoization table or short circuit if it knows it wont be productive .. little specializtions liek that 07:43:32 yeah.. sometime i am afraid to talk there becasue to muxch scrolling might cause people to leave 07:43:49 lol 07:44:27 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-245-231.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:40 seen this? http://common-lisp.net/project/erlang-in-lisp/ 07:52:26 yes 07:53:25 what's your take? 07:54:19 We use erlang kind of the way it's intended, with lots and lots of little processes. I wouldn't want to try that with native threads 07:55:28 i understand 07:56:32 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 07:57:39 erlang also has some really nice handling of binary blobs for doing packets, has mnesia, global name->pid registry, etc 08:00:05 nicolas [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:06:17 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:17:42 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.192] has left #lisp 08:18:13 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e178044068.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:20:29 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:21:18 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:34:43 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 08:35:03 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a16-094.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:35:14 crod [n=cmell@cb8a16-094.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:35:17 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 08:35:51 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:40:08 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB8051.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:45:08 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a16-094.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 08:46:52 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-245-231.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:47:46 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 08:47:57 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 08:48:48 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:52:46 mrSpec [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 08:52:52 Hi 08:55:33 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-54.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:58:36 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBAD1C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:01:02 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 09:03:30 -!- jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:04:11 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-245-231.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:53 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 09:06:37 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:06:38 hjpark [n=user@221.138.197.236] has joined #lisp 09:15:24 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.94.2.211] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 09:16:11 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:16:13 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 09:17:34 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:18:35 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 09:20:40 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:21:12 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:22:49 Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 09:24:26 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has left #lisp 09:24:43 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 09:24:46 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:24 how do i serve static pages with weblocks now? :-D 09:28:07 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:29:18 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:31:56 sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 09:46:49 Nocebojin [n=shaun@CPE-124-186-227-195.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:47:26 wtf? 09:48:25 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.94.2.211] has joined #lisp 09:48:55 -!- bit` [n=bit@c-71-193-240-79.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:56:39 -!- mrSpec [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has quit ["c Ya!"] 09:57:13 dwave_ [n=ask@212251218066.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 09:58:11 what is the limit of the macro version of continuation? 09:58:42 cl-cont said "delimited continuations". 10:09:07 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Delimited_continuation 10:10:14 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:10:23 oh, thx 10:10:29 good afternoon 10:10:44 afternoon? 10:10:53 good evening here :) 10:13:04 nikodemus any chance of my optimised recv patch for sb-bsd-sockets being applied ? 10:17:05 -!- Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has quit ["leaving"] 10:18:21 minion: msg? 10:18:21 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``msg''. 10:18:30 minion: message? 10:18:31 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``message''. 10:18:47 how does one leave private message with the automaton in charge? 10:19:40 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.94.2.211] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 10:19:56 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:21:32 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:21:42 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:22:20 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.94.2.211] has joined #lisp 10:22:34 minion: memo for S11001001: how do i send static files and moreover how to hook into the hunchentoot dispatch table, say, for sending custom headers, like with user-defined values. 10:22:34 Remembered. I'll tell S11001001 when he/she/it next speaks. 10:23:09 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.94.2.211] has quit [Client Quit] 10:24:20 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.94.2.211] has joined #lisp 10:24:48 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-245-231.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 10:28:20 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-4b7d87296c76b813] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:29:08 pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 10:29:41 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:30:25 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:30:29 good morning everyone! 10:30:46 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-f009603f244c4006] has joined #lisp 10:31:46 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:35:26 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 10:35:26 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A125F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:36:30 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-245-231.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:54 morning as well. Any super math geniuses on? :) 10:38:38 mrSpec [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 10:39:50 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 10:40:50 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-136-27.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:41:29 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:41:44 jbjohns, what's your problem? (I'm no math genius, but curious) 10:42:02 I'm trying to convert an srt file. The one I have seems to have the right text but it drifts a lot. It starts out 2 seconds, 710 milliseconds behind. 1 hour, 41 minutes and 15 seconds later it's behind 3 minutes, 36 seconds 10:42:10 so there's an obvious curve I guess, but lacking a strong math background I'm not sure how to uncover it. My current method was just to write a program to bump up all the times, but this leaves me having to change basically every subtitle 10:42:13 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:42:19 (e.g. current method: start at sub 1 and push all back 2 seconds. Now, start at sub 2 and push all back n seconds, etc.) 10:42:22 just ask jbjohns 10:42:39 hey tic 10:43:09 hi, fusss. 10:43:35 jbjohns, how about plotting a graph? that should be able to help you discern the underlying trend. 10:44:15 jbjohns, it's not particularly math-genius-ish, but it's a quick way to see if it's linear, exponential-with-stops(?) or something else. 10:44:26 -!- maodun [n=stopgo@c-67-180-49-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:44:52 phytovor [i=mitja@cpe-92-37-31-183.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:20 Ok, what's going to be the quickest way to plot it then (i.e. hopefully something that doesn't have 300 dependencies) 10:46:29 ? 10:47:04 GNU octave with gnuplot? 10:47:13 benny [n=benny@i577A1874.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:47:13 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:47:25 I'm on windows. I was thinking a lisp solution, but I guess I can put it in excell 10:47:45 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:48:15 -!- nicolas [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:48:21 jbjohns that means your srt file is for a different framerate 10:48:24 than the movie 10:48:33 I'm writing some software that uses CFFI. I'd like to use CFFI-Grovel to grovel structures that are only optionally-defined, according to SuSv3. What's a reasonable approach? 10:49:19 xristos: This is srt, the times are mentioned explicitly. All I can think of is someone started with a file that was in framerate format and then converted it to the wrong framerate, then to srt 10:49:49 The only things I can think of are splitting those definitions into separate grovel files and catching errors on PROCESS-GROVEL-FILE, or hacking up cffi-grovel to support ifdef. 10:50:19 the times that someone says something should be exactly the same regardless of framerate. By having more frames per second wont make the movie run faster/slower, right? 10:50:28 no 10:50:38 the times depend on the frame rate 10:50:46 I don't understand that at all 10:51:18 so your telling me if I watch a movie at 29.9 it will have a different duration then if I watch the same movie at 25? 10:51:31 jbjohns: I think that for some framerate conversions (maybe from film to PAL), they actually do either speed up or slow down the film. 10:51:46 To avoid the greater loss that would be inflicted by resampling. 10:52:23 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 10:52:32 that's odd. But that must mean I can determine the framerate that was used to do this srt and then convert it to mine, no? 10:52:55 You could just try, there are only two framerates in use basically. 10:53:18 what's odd about it? if you have a 24fps movie, and you play it at 48fps, it will finish in half the time 10:53:31 unless it doubles the frames or something peculiar 10:54:02 joga: The telecine process does do peculiar things. 10:54:07 joga: Wouldn't that be the point of having more frames? More info? Granted I expected any frame rate conversions to just go down. Going up would be the same as just fast forwarding, no? 10:54:09 Often times. 10:54:35 anyone know of an srt framerate converter? The only thing I've seen just did the same "push everything ahead by delta" that I've been doing unsucessfully 10:54:45 jbjohns tht wont work 10:54:57 because the drift is not stable 10:54:58 xristos: You're right. It hasn't. :) 10:55:02 but it adapts 10:55:03 xristos: yes, i've just been busy with other things. i have a local branch where it is applied, but i wanted to give the API some love while at it 10:55:19 nikodemus thanks 10:55:34 i will do some more work on sb-bsd-sockets 10:55:41 there are some things i'd like to fix 10:55:46 jbjohns: So, measure the error at the beginning and end of the film. Apply some trivial algebra and write a program to apply a correction factor to each timestamp. 10:55:56 jbjohns: subtitleeditor has option "change framerate" 10:56:05 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:56:33 that http://home.gna.org/subtitleeditor/ subtitleeditor 10:56:42 Bewilder: That's what brought me in the channel this morning. :) That "trivial algebra" isn't jumping out at me. 10:57:10 Well, assuming that things are in-sync in the beginning of the film, you'd want to multiply each timestamp by x in order to fix it. 10:57:11 Find x. 10:57:28 awesome, thanks. Now I have to go eat before the wife throws some "trivial plates" at me. :) 10:58:49 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:59:32 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 11:00:13 For any timestamp where you have the erroneous value and the estimated-correct value, divide the estimated-correct value by the erroneous one. Measure near the end for greatest accuracy. 11:00:34 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 11:01:12 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:04:19 -!- phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:04:28 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-54.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 11:04:49 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-54.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:05:27 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.94.2.211] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:07:11 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:14:16 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:14:30 -!- mrSpec is now known as Spec[afk] 11:14:48 sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 11:15:18 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:16:04 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 11:20:15 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:20:16 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:20:22 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-101-69.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:25:57 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:26:13 Bewilder: I don't think it's that simple 11:26:52 I'm trying to convert an srt file. The one I have seems to have the right text but it drifts a lot. It starts out 2 seconds, 710 milliseconds behind. 1 hour, 41 minutes and 15 seconds later it's behind 3 minutes, 36 seconds 11:26:53 so there's an obvious curve I guess, but lacking a strong math background I'm not sure how to uncover it. My current method was just to write a program to bump up all the times, but this leaves me having to change basically every subtitle 11:26:55 (e.g. current method: start at sub 1 and push all back 2 seconds. Now, start at sub 2 and push all back n seconds, etc.) 11:27:31 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 11:28:32 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:28:54 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:29:45 jbjohns: It looks like a linear error, not a curve. And with only two samples, one can't tell. 11:30:12 Think about the approach and try it. 11:33:24 mulligan` [n=user@e178044068.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:41:19 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C54B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:42:24 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.197.30] has joined #lisp 11:54:26 elurin` [n=user@85.99.65.141] has joined #lisp 11:55:02 does anybody know why "lock" and "nfields" were introduced in Kiczales' TinyCLOS? they are not really used. 11:56:09 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 11:56:34 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a16-094.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:58:23 -!- appletizer [i=a@82-32-122-46.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:58:35 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:58:48 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:01:21 -!- hjpark [n=user@221.138.197.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:02:08 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:02:12 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 12:02:42 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:02:57 I ended up downloading subtitleeditor on my linux machine and fixed the problem within seconds. But it was good excersise for me to write the simple lisp program. Thanks everyone for your help 12:07:35 sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 12:21:41 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 12:31:35 -!- Spec[afk] is now known as mrSPec 12:31:44 -!- mrSPec is now known as mrSpec 12:33:04 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-101-69.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:53 michaelw, #scheme might know 12:36:25 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@195.116.35.13] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:38:51 mathrick [n=mathrick@195.116.35.13] has joined #lisp 12:41:49 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-133-122.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:42:12 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 12:42:47 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:43:29 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:45:32 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 12:53:26 How do I make one lisp-process ssh to another computer, make it build a new repl there and find out when it's ready to accept new commands? (I'd need to do this multithreaded from/to sbcl) 12:55:36 get busy. 12:56:57 build a new repl ? 12:57:23 you can use swank to communicate remotely with a lisp process 12:57:54 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 12:58:09 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:58:25 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #lisp 12:58:28 (format #f "~N" blah) ; gives an output of: 12:58:32 is there anyway I want the \n to be actually interpreted ? 12:58:36 i.e. I want the opposite of ~S 12:59:47 xristos: it should be automated. The primary lisp process resembles a server. That server wil automagically give commands to the other processes 13:01:05 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:02:01 hml: replace \n by ~% and feed that to format? 13:02:22 m4dnificent you can use swank for that 13:02:42 or make up your own protocol to send/receive 'commands' 13:03:46 xristos: could you give me an example for swank for that? I thought there'd be something builtin to handle repl-style communication :) 13:04:12 the documentation for format says: 13:04:16 ~S READably, with escapes 13:04:25 ther emust be a way to read back something that's outputted via ~S 13:04:33 m4dnificent see the slime documentation and check out swank:create-server 13:04:52 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:05:24 i'm sure there are other solutions too 13:05:33 i've seen telnet based repl 13:05:46 but you can also make your own 13:05:55 plutonas [n=plutonas@adsl-28.ucnet.uoc.gr] has joined #lisp 13:06:46 hml: in common lisp strings , unlike in c, "\n" escapes to "n" 13:06:46 hml: there's a READ function 13:07:03 hml: nit to linefeed 13:07:04 hml: not all data is readable, however 13:07:22 i should rephrase; suppose I have a string made of [a-zA-Z0-9\n\t ]* 13:07:37 is there a built in func for the inverse of (lambda (x) (format #f "~S" x)) ? 13:07:53 hml: the READ function :p 13:08:03 and #f doesn't exist in common lisp 13:08:09 hml: what Lisp book are you currently reading? 13:08:12 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:08:33 Common Lisp has NIL 13:08:38 hml: #f is not a standard dispatch macro character, you probably meant NIL, or are using one of attila lendvai's reader hacks. 13:08:53 HAHA! 13:09:12 "#f is not a standard dispatch macro" 13:09:24 xristos: thanks, will do 13:09:30 (format #f "~A~N" (read (format #f "~S~N" (format #f "~A~N~A~N" "hello" "world")))) 13:09:40 is not getting me back hello world on separate lines 13:10:02 hml: try ~% instead of ~n 13:10:21 clhs ~n 13:10:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 13:10:25 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-024-193.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:10:25 clhs ~% 13:10:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cab.htm 13:10:27 hml: please read the FORMAT documentation. not everything uses printf syntax 13:11:04 hml: It's also READ-FROM-STRING in this case. 13:12:49 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@76.168.248.118] has quit ["night"] 13:13:31 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:14:29 13:18:41 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.192] has joined #lisp 13:24:07 breinded [n=nonamme@h-67-101-29-132.nycmny83.dynamic.covad.net] has joined #lisp 13:24:13 hi 13:25:03 can someone help me why when following 'casting spels' doesn't return the examples result using sbcl? 13:25:05 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 13:27:23 breinded: what's the problem? 13:27:25 breinded: what specifically are you having trouble with? 13:28:48 ok it says this 'If you're using Allegro Common Lisp, please execute the following from the Lisp prompt:' (setf tpl:*print-length* nil) 13:29:01 does that apply to me using sbcl? 13:29:05 no 13:29:16 by the way this is the site http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 13:29:35 allegro is a different implementation of CL, but you are using sbcl 13:30:20 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4e7d.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 13:30:42 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-024-193.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Bye bye"] 13:31:10 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 13:31:59 this the first command? or line? (setf *objects* '(whiskey-bottle bucket frog chain)) and it gives me this error caught WARNING:undefined variable: *OBJECTS* and finish the compilation with (WHISKEY-BOTTLE BUCKET FROG CHAIN) 13:32:36 sbcl is anal about undefined variables. replace setf with defparameter 13:33:37 geocar [n=user@pool-71-255-188-128.slsbmd.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:48 (setf a 42) is analogous to 'a = 42', (defparameter a 42) to 'var a = 42' 13:34:12 (using some sort of js-inspired pseudocode) 13:34:21 how do I start all over? The guide says to type RES but sbcl tells me RES is ambiguous with RESTART and RESTART-FRAME 13:34:42 choose 'abort' restart 13:35:00 oudeis: except it isn't analogous (: 13:35:13 breinded: note that it was just a warning. it should have done what was expected anyway 13:35:14 fsvo analogous 13:35:19 IIRjsC, var introduces a local binding (: 13:35:28 and defparameter makes a global one 13:36:46 that's correct, but an unnecessary complication for a newbie trying to understand in very rough terms what sbcl wants from him 13:36:58 the author mentions at the end that def is a bad style and defparameter should be used instead 13:37:14 dlowe: ok thanks 13:39:06 antifuchs: what happens if you use 'var' outside a function in js? 13:39:10 :) now, using defparameter, it returned *OBJECT" 13:39:12 no idea 13:39:58 it probably becomes a 'global' var. but now, concepts of global in cl and js are so different, analogy breaks anyway 13:40:15 isn't this return ok ? 13:40:22 and in cl it is 'special', no such thing in js 13:41:47 breinded: that's ok, defparameter tells you it established a binding for *object*, now try evaluating *object* 13:42:14 and you should get your list returned 13:42:17 simply, write *object* :) 13:46:37 antifuchs: that's why i love #lisp. an unsuspecting person comes in, asks a 'simple' question and invariably gets in the middle of very technical arguments s/he cannot understand because the conceptual framework is not there yet :) 13:46:48 awesome, no (: 13:47:51 davazp [n=user@100.Red-79-157-95.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:52 mrSpec: write *object* with the stars included? 13:55:14 yesm the stars are part of the name 13:55:14 breinded: It is convention to denote global variables with a naming convention of *foo* 13:55:21 -!- davazp [n=user@100.Red-79-157-95.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:55:26 actually I get the conceptual befare the practice 13:55:28 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:56:26 breinded: I recommend reading the book Practical Common Lisp instead of random tutorials on the net. The book presents the language in a coherent manner. 13:56:57 random tutorials are often written by people who don't really understand the material either 13:57:09 got it :) 13:57:37 lmao@random tutorials 13:57:43 casting spels is quite ok 13:57:58 it's fun, and it's written by a person who does understand 13:58:02 does pcl have step by step examples? 13:58:07 breinded: That particular tutorial is not bad. I'd recommend it to work through it after being somewhat acquainted with the language, though. 13:58:20 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.197.30] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 13:58:36 breinded: there are lots of examples (from the ground up), but no exercises (: 13:58:49 ok 13:58:54 or should that be "and no exercises"... whatever floats your boat (: 13:59:00 breinded: It lacks exercises, sadly. 13:59:29 how do I enter many lines? http://rafb.net/p/dH2T1447.html 13:59:40 I think it's in portage 13:59:47 ansi common lisp has exercises though 14:00:32 it's easier to appreciate its failings when (by reading acl, and doing the exercises), they become your failings as well 14:01:57 breinded, You can write in notepad++ 14:02:07 and import file to interpreter 14:02:22 it's easier if you write more then 1 line 14:02:57 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:48 ok 14:04:39 breinded: the right way is to install emacs + slime. but that may be tricky for a newbie. alternatively, you can use clisp (it has support for readline) or one of the commercial lisps trial versions (lispworks or franz's allegro) 14:05:16 lispinabox isn't bad 14:05:17 it's ancient 14:05:30 breinded: i'd recommend the latter option. that way you will be able to concentrate on learning the language, and not fighting the environment 14:05:39 but C-M-x works 14:08:25 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:08:50 -!- ths__ is now known as ths 14:08:51 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:09:56 lol @ "lispinabox", reminds me of that video. i think you mean LispBox 14:10:12 breinded: Installing Slime is not that difficult. I highly recommend it. 14:10:34 breinded: I'll assist you even. First go the slime website, and checkout the source from CVS. 14:10:54 fusss: http://common-lisp.net/project/lispbox/ 14:10:59 the title says "lisp in a box" 14:11:07 tcr: but slime requirest that one extract files from a tarball and add 3 lines to .emacs :-( 14:11:53 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-204-57-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:13:00 speaking of which, i'm sorta required to give feedback to LW for lending me their pro version. I'm gonna tell them "more Slime support!" 14:13:31 fusss: "lispbox" as in, http://www.gigamonkeys.com/lispbox/ is something else i think 14:13:45 (says it's based on "lisp in a box", but i don't know) 14:14:15 geocar: lispbox is a specialized LiaB. 14:14:28 eventually, everyone gets sbcl and fuggetsaboutit 14:14:47 well there you go 14:15:21 geocar: are you just learning lisp? 14:15:49 fusss: No it does not require you to extract files from a tarball, it requires you to checkout from cvs, that is paste a line from the website into your terminal. 14:16:21 Eleanore [n=a@h246n1.lunet.ias.bredband.telia.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:33 tcr: i was being sarcastic there 14:17:54 -!- borism___ [n=boris@195-50-206-223-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:18:37 people just starting out with lisp can get their feets wet, and backside of their ears dried with ABLE: http://phil.nullable.eu/ 14:24:14 -!- patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 14:24:25 patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:37 ok,.how do I import the file using sbcl? Is this name ok? spels.lp 14:25:13 ok have you run interpreter from the directory where is this file ? 14:25:40 ( I hope it is working like in CLisp) 14:26:17 write : (import 'spels.lp) 14:26:58 by the way slime is in portage 14:27:05 mrSpec: thanks 14:27:22 np 14:28:03 can I move the interpreter to a new directory? 14:28:51 cant you run it in any directory you want ? 14:29:01 how do I quit the darn thing! 14:29:05 (exit) 14:29:09 ;] 14:30:25 fusss: nope! i wrote the hunchentoot ecl port, and wrote usable ecl support for slime 14:30:51 nope, is this --> (SB-EXT:QUIT) 14:31:09 geocar: you have done well for someone who isn't using ABLE ;-) 14:31:28 breinded: yes 14:31:49 fusss: i've never seen ABLE, looks interesting 14:34:55 after (import 'spels.lp) it returned(proper term?) only this --> T 14:34:55 hi, is it normal? (coerce 1.2 'double-float) => 1.2000000476837158d0 14:35:12 breinded: Do not use Slime from portage. You're supposed to grab the vanilla version from CVS. 14:35:38 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 14:35:46 breinded: the advice to use IMPORT is incorrect. to load a file write (load "spels.lp") 14:35:50 breinded: seriously; every package manager distributes an ancient and awful and somewhat broken version of slime 14:36:16 kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 14:36:22 geocar: Gentoo is doing a bit better than other distributions, as fe[nl]ix is involved there, I think. 14:36:39 l4ndfo: the literal 1.2 is a single-float 14:37:02 yes i know, but how could i convert it into a double without having the trash at the end? 14:37:08 kreuter: ok 14:37:16 l4ndfo: 1.2 isn't expressible as an exact ieee floating point number 14:37:18 l4ndfo: the trash is already there 14:37:26 read it as a double-float 14:37:36 ahh sorry, load not import :/ 14:37:43 write 1.2d0 or bind *read-default-float-format* 14:37:45 er sorry, i missed that 14:39:34 kpreid: using (load "spels.lp") returned the same thing: the letter T 14:39:43 T=truth? 14:40:06 often used so yes 14:40:12 here T is a symbol 14:40:24 here to 14:40:24 LOAD is specified to return true on success 14:40:37 -!- patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:40:37 then I succeded! 14:40:50 maybe 14:40:55 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 14:41:25 what was your list name ? 14:41:27 *map* ? 14:42:10 hello 14:42:25 i don't really understand, but i would expect (coerce 1.2 'double-float) => 1.2d0 14:43:01 which list? 14:43:50 l4ndfo: binary floating-point just doesn't work that way 14:44:04 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:44:17 fusss: just tried ABLE, but I don't like it. Is C-e supposed to require I select the form first? 14:44:31 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:44:55 l4ndfo: there is no exact representation of 1.2, when it is read you get the closest single-float. the nearest double-float to that single-float is not nearest to 1.2, but rather to that other decimal number which you see the double-float printed as 14:45:18 l4ndfo: when the lisp reader sees "1.2" it reads a single-float. it's already 1.2018357t91837 whatever by the time (coerce) sees it. 14:45:46 geocar: dunno, just an stock answer for people who don't have the time to learn emacs i guess 14:45:48 coerce can represent that 1.2gibberish was a double-float because it's *adding* precision, 14:46:22 fusss: i don't mind emacs much 14:46:29 ok 14:46:56 l4ndfo: it's like, corece sees this 1.20000150230 whatever, and creates a double-float with the same value 14:47:12 ok, but then why i don't see 1.201... as a single float? 14:49:38 because the printer is being nice to you 14:49:44 l4ndfo: http://paste.lisp.org/display/72445 should make it clearer 14:50:51 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.216.108] has joined #lisp 14:52:32 l4ndfo: and with double-floats: http://paste.lisp.org/display/72446 14:52:54 note that a single-float gets visually truncated long before a double-float does 14:53:20 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 14:53:38 or if you like, just enter 1.2000000476837158 into the repl; and you'll see cl prints it out as "1.2" 14:53:47 aha, so it's just because the printer 14:54:05 they're conspiring to get you 14:54:20 -!- Nocebojin [n=shaun@CPE-124-186-227-195.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:54:25 w00t, it's working :) 14:54:58 yes, but the a single float has only 23 significand bits 14:55:51 is it possible to tell the pronter to show the "real" value? 14:55:56 i 14:56:45 when putting this in the prompt (describe-location 'living-room *map*) 14:57:22 I am supposed to get this (YOU ARE IN THE LIVING-ROOM OF A WIZARD'S HOUSE. THERE IS A WIZARD SNORING LOUDLY ON THE COUCH.) 14:58:14 but instead I am getting this (YOU ARE IN THE LIVING-ROOM OF A WIZARDS HOUSE. THERE IS A ...) The ' in wizard's is missing and the entire line is cut. 14:58:24 :( 14:58:54 appletizer [i=a@82-32-122-46.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:59:15 hello? 15:00:14 breinded: (setf *print-level* nil) 15:01:06 breinded: (setf *print-length* nil) 15:02:32 l4ndfo: maybe, but i wouldn't recommend going down that path. this is how ieee-floating-point works *everywhere*; it's how printf() works in C, and you'll probably do better to simply change your expectations 15:02:59 l4ndfo: *expect* that floating point numbers are wrong, by some small unknown amount, and don't ever use them for anything when the answer actually matters 15:03:18 l4ndfo: You might(!) want to read this: http://docs.sun.com/source/806-3568/ncg_goldberg.html 15:03:50 i agree, *read-default-float-format* solved my problem, i was just curious 15:03:52 l4ndfo: actually, you definitely want to read that 15:03:57 thank you for the help 15:04:06 *read-default-float-format* probably didn't solve your problem 15:04:09 it just made it invisible again 15:04:10 geocar: it worked now, but what about the missing ' in WIZARDS? 15:05:13 yes, but i need doubles and i have to read them from a string, so finally i will get 1.2d0, what i wanted to 15:05:48 -!- Eleanore [n=a@h246n1.lunet.ias.bredband.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:06:35 wow I'am owning this thing 15:07:43 breinded: look at your code again: http://rafb.net/p/dH2T1447.html 15:10:47 breinded: ' is not token syntax in Lisp. 15:11:43 whoa! that wasn't my typo but the author's 15:11:45 '(Wizard's house) will be printed back as (WIZARD 'S HOUSE) 15:12:09 http://www.lisperati.com/data.html 15:12:30 breinded: it's a deliberate typo 15:13:27 lol@deliberate. I've fixed it. 15:13:43 Sigh. 15:15:28 just tested 4 open source web authoring tools: amaya, kompozer, aptana and bluefish 15:15:49 actually is not fixed. Now it added a space before the tilde WIZARD 'S 15:16:45 breinded: I'm afraid all you'll see is gibberish if I try to explain it to you at this point of time. I recommend to read through Practical Common Lisp. 15:18:39 oh that's not fair 15:19:16 breinded: you've probably gathered that characters like * and + aren't special in lisp and can be part of symbols, right? 15:19:51 go ahead. I don't get why he has WIZARD'S when he wrote wizards and I get WIZARDS and when I add a tilde wizard's I get WIZARD 'S. 15:19:51 breinded: however ' is syntax; when the reader sees 'X it produces (QUOTE X) 15:20:03 you can't see it though because when the printer sees (QUOTE X) it prints 'X 15:20:20 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:20:23 breinded: I gave the reason already. ' is not token syntax in Lisp, you can't use it in symbols. 15:20:35 you can tell it's there though; just do (first ''x) and you'll see "QUOTE" 15:20:35 breinded: Like in C, you can't use +, * etc in identifiers 15:20:39 oh ok 15:20:55 my bad 15:21:24 not necessarily.. |WIZARD'S| works 15:21:38 Hun: I'll try that 15:21:49 Hun, rather clumsy though. 15:21:56 though that might not be what you wanted. try to understand the point of quote first 15:22:53 breinded: Everything between vertical bars is escaped, that's the reason why |wizard's| represents a symbol with an apostrophe in its name. 15:23:25 tcr: is there a way to escape | too? 15:23:37 Hun: not really perfect --> (YOU ARE IN THE LIVING-ROOM OF A |wizard's| HOUSE. THERE IS A WIZARD SNORING LOUDLY ON THE COUCH.) 15:23:44 foo\|bar 15:24:02 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-54.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:14 And I quickly deleted them all (Was: just tested 4 open source web authoring tools: amaya, kompozer, aptana and bluefish) 15:24:22 breinded: told you, it won't be what you need. i just wanted to nitpick that one can actually have quotes in symbol names 15:24:45 geocar: where do I add (first ''x)? 15:24:59 breinded: you don't. just type that into the repl; it'll print QUOTE out. 15:25:21 breinded: or type (quote (quote X)) if you want to see 'X 15:25:54 is clnet csv up? 15:25:56 breinded: the effects of lisp's syntax are subtle; both the printer and the reader are cooperating to make you think you've got syntax, but you mustn't forget you're still dealing with a data structure 15:26:01 *cvs 15:26:08 borism__ [n=boris@195-50-211-226-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:26:42 oudeis: slime's cvs wfm 15:26:54 slime's cvs works here too 15:26:54 for me, not 15:27:12 firewall? 15:27:24 no 15:27:27 oudeis: anonymous? or via ssh? 15:27:32 anonymous 15:28:03 anonymous wfm, too 15:28:05 okay, anonymous is working too 15:28:15 (but could've been worth checking) 15:28:19 my firewall (little snitch tells me cvs is trying to connect to port 2401, i allow, then cvs is stuck) 15:28:25 geocar: right, I add that into the file. But right between wizard and s? This wizard(quote 15:28:36 breinded: no. ignore the spel thing for a moment. 15:28:50 breinded: i'm afraid i've confused you. 15:29:32 breinded: that thing that you typed (load) into, that you can evaluate code interactively in is the repl 15:29:32 wizard(quote (quote X))s <-- sorry, this is my example 15:29:54 you'll never get WIZARD'S to print the way you want it to without modifying lisp itself 15:30:03 i'm trying to explain why it does what it does 15:30:12 (maybe tcr is right) 15:30:37 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-204-57-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:37 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-181.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:30:57 You're not presenting the matter in a coherent way. It's hard to do here, hence I asked him to go read some book. 15:32:13 ok I get this one (first ''x). It showed exactly what you said QUOTE 15:33:01 breinded: try (quote (quote x)) 15:33:12 breinded: then try (second ''x) 15:33:25 breinded: can you then mentalize what lisp is doing? 15:36:04 interesting 15:36:58 so this guy made this delibarate typo for ppl to get confused? Or to learn that ' is part of lisp's syntax? 15:37:32 no, he wrote "wizard's" because that's how you write the possessive-form of "wizard" 15:37:46 He did not write wizard's, but wizards 15:37:49 being confused is part of learning. most beginner's books have some deliberately buggy code, so that you poke the machine how stuff works 15:37:50 a-s [n=user@92.81.96.202] has joined #lisp 15:38:09 breinded: You were supposed to ignore this. 15:38:10 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:38:45 tcr: yes he did: http://lisperati.com/code.html 15:39:58 geocar: http://www.lisperati.com/data.html 15:40:15 he left out the ' on http://lisperati.com/data.html but included it in http://lisperati.com/code.html 15:40:37 tcr: look at http://lisperati.com/looking.html 15:40:57 Really, I don't care. :) 15:42:26 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:43:58 tcr: well, you look like you're trying to be helpful 15:44:14 i'm just pointing out the wizard's didn't come from breinded 15:45:06 schasi [n=schasi@p54A24D5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:15 It did if look at the contour of this discussion. 15:45:37 lol@contour 15:46:17 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.192] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:52:25 wow cool!! 15:52:37 (defun describe-path (path) 15:52:50 `(there is a ,(second path) going ,(first path) from here.)) 15:53:00 and then (describe-path '(west door garden)) 15:53:17 ==> (THERE IS A DOOR GOING WEST FROM HERE.) 15:54:04 that's funny, it picks stuff from a list and uses the items in whatever order 15:56:39 nice 'flip ,flop lol :D 15:57:28 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:00 morning 15:58:10 hello 16:00:18 davazp [n=user@100.Red-79-157-95.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:00 -!- gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-46-222.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 16:06:10 robyonrails [n=roby@host51-121-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:09:25 -!- appletizer [i=a@82-32-122-46.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:10:45 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:13:45 eviltangerine [n=robert@c-76-28-234-221.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:18 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:17:09 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:17:42 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A24D5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 16:18:10 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 16:19:10 patmaddox [n=pergesu@ip68-4-201-9.oc.oc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:34 Grilinctus [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has joined #lisp 16:20:41 w00t 16:21:17 r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:29 breinded: are you figuring it out? or just getting the example to work? 16:23:59 both 16:24:03 good 16:25:34 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:25:51 I'm finding it interesting how it picks items off a list in any given order and put's it back into the sentence to change the meaning of the sentence 16:28:00 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120121]"] 16:28:39 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:29:01 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:10 do you find printf() similarly interesting? 16:31:08 i.e. printf("there is a %s going %s from here.", second(path), first(path)); 16:31:29 how about this? print "there is a $path[1] going $path[0] from here."; 16:31:46 `, isn't magic 16:34:19 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:34:34 -!- mrSpec is now known as spec[away] 16:34:42 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has left #lisp 16:34:59 he doesn't introduce printf() 16:35:05 -!- Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:35:28 no, printf() is from C; the second is from perl 16:35:40 breinded: what other languages are you familiar with? 16:36:12 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:37:29 jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:26 none 16:38:29 wow 16:39:55 not wow, if I don't learn isn't wow :( 16:40:51 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@212251218066.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 16:41:41 rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-48-213.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 16:41:58 ` is syntax like ' is syntax 16:42:25 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 16:42:26 `(there is a ,(second '(west door garden)) going ,(first '(west door garden)) from here.) 16:42:39 does that help you see what is going on? 16:44:28 yes 16:45:05 so basically you skipped (defun describe-path (path) 16:45:10 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:45:48 well, the '(west door garden) is a list; that's a value 16:45:53 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 16:45:55 you pass that value to your describe-path function 16:45:57 neat :D 16:46:03 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@pool-71-112-121-49.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:23 so (describe-path '(west door garden)) will evaluate describe-path's body, with "path" set to '(west door garden) 16:46:49 yes 16:47:13 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:47:21 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@pool-71-112-121-49.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:47:39 (third path) will evaluate to the third element of the path list, which as we know contains (west door garden) 16:47:50 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:47:51 so (third path) should yield 'garden 16:49:56 netaust1n [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:45 sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 16:54:22 dwave_ [n=ask@212251218066.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:55:13 carbocalm [i=carbocal@69-196-171-169.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 16:56:30 good morning. Does anybody know if there's " 16:56:54 carbocalm: " ? 16:57:01 good morning. Does anybody know if there's "this" keyword in CLOS ? i need it in initialize-instance 16:57:11 ..sorry for typos... 16:57:39 carbocalm: you don't need a this keyword --- the first argument is the object to be initialized. But feel free to call it THIS, if you want to! 16:58:09 (defmethod initialize-instance :after ((this myclass)...) 16:58:26 of course.. me stupid. 16:58:33 bye... 16:59:01 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 16:59:14 carbocalm: these things happen when you haven't had your coffee yet :) 16:59:41 it happens all the time, i don't drink cofeee 17:01:13 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4e7d.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:02:18 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 17:03:12 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.244.105] has joined #lisp 17:03:53 well there's your problem 17:04:00 eviltangerine_ [n=robert@vpn-250-41.caltech.edu] has joined #lisp 17:08:53 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:08:53 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:08:56 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 17:11:37 -!- eviltangerine [n=robert@c-76-28-234-221.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:11:44 -!- Grilinctus is now known as Aankhen`` 17:11:56 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has quit ["“Taken unawares… I’m a fool!” “At long last, we agree on something, Primal.”"] 17:12:09 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a16-094.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:19 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has joined #lisp 17:15:55 nikodemus: There? 17:15:56 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has quit [Client Quit] 17:16:18 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has joined #lisp 17:16:57 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.cclan.general/807 17:17:00 interesting idea 17:18:19 -!- int80_h [n=michael@h-68-166-221-28.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:21:06 I've spotted another grammar error "Now a function that tells us if he have a certain object on us:" it's supposed to be "he has" not "he have" 17:22:09 *JuanDaugherty* guffaws, whether or not that was supposed to be funny 17:23:14 at the bottom of this page http://www.lisperati.com/spels.html 17:23:16 some purported english speakers can't wait for a neutral interlingua, apparently 17:24:28 breinded: perhaps it was a typo, or perhaps it was called "have" so that the function-when-called makes more sense later in the program 17:24:48 tcr: no really -- just came home from shopping, about to start cooking 17:29:20 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:29:21 jjong [n=user@125.176.90.47] has joined #lisp 17:31:03 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:31:57 -!- geocar [n=user@pool-71-255-188-128.slsbmd.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:33:19 -!- jjong [n=user@125.176.90.47] has quit [Client Quit] 17:39:50 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@212251218066.customer.cdi.no] has quit ["Be back later"] 17:40:21 eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-165-21.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:38 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:44:34 dwave_ [n=ask@212251218066.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:50:21 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-101-69.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:51:04 disumu [n=disumu@p57A273A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:36 can anyone recommend an html parsing utility? 17:54:10 I need to get html back as sexp to do some pattern matching 17:54:19 closure-html 17:54:52 someone should add it to cliki.net/web 17:55:10 that someone could be you! 17:55:46 fusss: if you want s-expression you might need some cxml backend 17:56:17 what does closure-html return? 17:57:05 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@adsl-28.ucnet.uoc.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:57:06 michaelw: i'm cliki disabled. i tried to write small usage example for cl-mime and messed up the whole page to never do it again. 17:57:33 if at first you don't succeed, try again 17:58:47 cliki is some kind of cathedral anyway, i use lisppaste for my distributed knowledge sharing (also weblocks erros, many many weblocks errors) 17:59:01 fusss: c-h interfaces to SAX: http://common-lisp.net/project/closure/closure-html/atdoc/ 18:00:05 cl-html-parse might be a little more lightweight 18:00:31 sinistral-daemon [n=mnd@dsl-245-165-173.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:01:31 good lord! 18:01:36 why do you want "lightweight"? 18:01:53 i found c-h quite easy to use 18:02:12 I'd have thought that "good" was a better criterion -- after all, you've got megabytes of Common Lisp to drag around anyway 18:02:14 i already wrote an html parser last year! 18:02:34 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@212251218066.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:03:20 Krystof: light weight, because i'm scrapping some not so sophisticated html pages 18:03:25 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:03:39 Krystof: did you ever look at tiny-clos? 18:06:19 -!- sinistral-daemon is now known as irc 18:06:48 -!- irc is now known as Guest91314 18:06:52 sam___ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 18:07:28 -!- Guest91314 [n=mnd@dsl-245-165-173.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [] 18:11:37 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:13:18 you guys are right 18:13:42 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:13:49 (closure-html (parse "foo.html" nil)) returns me a parse file :-) doesn't get any easier 18:13:54 _sinistral_ [n=mnd@dsl-245-165-173.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:14:24 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:15:47 pt-(name|children|parent, etc) walks the tree. this is reallly good. 18:24:37 -!- a-s [n=user@92.81.96.202] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:33:50 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:35:16 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:25 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:45:05 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:47:19 -!- cipher` [n=cipher@pool-98-118-51-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:49:51 i'm getting this error trying to compile cxml 18:50:50 # has no external symbol with name "UNESCAPED" 18:53:53 ok never mind. it builds just fine on my other box. 18:56:55 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@81-208-106-75.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:58:20 Eno_1 [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:17 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:00:18 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 19:02:05 int80_h [n=michael@h-68-166-221-28.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:18 having a problem with emacs 19:02:21 I'm using slime 19:02:44 and when I open up another window, to type in a lisp program, I'm not getting proper indentation 19:02:53 any suggestions? 19:03:35 are you in Lisp mode? 19:03:57 hmm, I thought that slime automated that. How do I know if I'm in Lisp mode? 19:04:07 in the emacs modeline, it will say something like (Lisp Slime) 19:04:38 yes, I'm in Lisp mode 19:05:05 what is your lisp-indent-function (hit C-h v lisp-indent-function RET) 19:05:30 (setq lisp-indent-function 'common-lisp-indent-function) 19:05:38 it should be common-lisp-indent-function 19:06:29 hmm it's not responding to C-h 19:06:51 okay that's wierd, C-h just erased a character 19:06:54 or, depending what 'improper indentation' means ... M-x slime-update-indentation 19:07:09 int80_h: you ae in a terminal window? 19:07:31 yes, I have emacs in a term, with a slipt screen 19:07:36 I mean , split screen 19:07:54 which terminal to which operating system? 19:08:21 I use xterm, and netbsd is the OS 19:08:47 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host51-121-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:47 vick [n=abc@217.54.232.182] has joined #lisp 19:09:30 ok, you might need to set up emacs more fundamentally than just the slime bits 19:09:45 hrm .. whay out of my area of expertise ... but if delete in C-h, and so is backspace, you might want to consider changing either backspace, control or C-H mapping. 19:09:46 having confused emacs/terminal relationships is going to set you up for a world of pain 19:10:01 hmm, this is a new problem 19:10:16 at least I don't remember having this problem before anyway 19:10:28 okay should I go to the emacs channel then? 19:10:53 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177123153.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:11:04 int80_h: or netbsd. or use emacs in X 19:11:26 or wait .. are you using screen as well? 19:11:34 no not using screen 19:11:39 how do I use emacs in X? 19:12:10 well, you have to have in compiled for X, then it's usually a matter of starting it in an xterm .... 19:12:29 hmm, I'm pretty sure it's compiled for X 19:13:21 okay I'm going to the emacs channel to see if I can get this fixed 19:13:32 so what is C-h supposed to be by default? 19:14:33 help .. or delete, or backspace, depending on who is in charge 19:14:42 depends. in the terminal it's backward-delete-char or something like that, in GUI emacs it's a prefix key 19:16:09 michaelw: in some terminals under some settings. i have avoided C-h as backspace for years now 19:16:28 backspace is ^? where it belongs! 19:17:54 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:13 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:19:22 dwave_ [i=dwave@100.84-49-235.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:32 yoann [n=yo@133.150.199-77.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:45 -!- yoann is now known as yoyo_sensei 19:20:48 -!- yoyo_sensei [n=yo@133.150.199-77.rev.gaoland.net] has left #lisp 19:22:50 -!- _sinistral_ [n=mnd@dsl-245-165-173.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 19:23:17 closure-html is amazing 19:23:29 michaelw: i thank you for the recommendation my friend 19:25:43 fusss pasted "html parsing and generation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72452 19:26:40 input is almost identical to output. i hope closure-html isn't doing `cp $1 $2` behind my bad :-P 19:28:51 Ed54 [n=ed@cpe-76-181-62-205.columbus.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:53 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 19:28:56 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:29:42 say i wanted to learn a programming language 19:29:50 would lisp be easy to start out in? 19:30:11 easy as in compared to other languages 19:30:11 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:30:22 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.254.209] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:30:58 c|mell [n=cmell@cad439-219.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:31:22 Ed54: you have no programming experience? 19:31:41 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #lisp 19:32:15 Ed54: If so, I'd suggest Logo (depending on your age), then Scheme. 19:32:16 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:46 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 19:33:28 Ed54: they teach lisp as a first programming language to undergrads, so i guess yes. 19:33:55 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:56 -!- eno_ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-165-21.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:37:11 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:37:33 what should i be using instead of string-concat? 19:37:44 sbcl says it doesn't exist 19:38:27 sounds good 19:38:27 mbac: (concatenate 'string ...) 19:38:45 i'm still in my teens, with no programming experience 19:38:51 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-24-7-212-60.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:38:57 i do know html 19:38:59 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has joined #lisp 19:38:59 oh, that was easy 19:39:08 Ed54: learn javascript 19:39:34 Ed54: it's almost a lisp, available everywhere, and will have you making useful programs that are easy to deploy in no time 19:39:46 will try 19:39:53 *Ed54* is on christmas break 19:39:58 i've got some free time 19:40:31 Thumper_ [n=Thumper@about/essy/coffeeAddict/Thumper] has joined #lisp 19:40:42 Ed54: actually .. i take that back. starting from scratch, read Tourtzky and go from there.. url coming... 19:41:13 Ed54: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/index.html 19:41:42 that one will teach you not just a language .. but _how_ to program. 19:42:01 thanks drewc 19:42:14 i've tried reading some stuff before 19:42:16 SICP anybody? http://mitpress.mit.edu/sicp/full-text/book/book.html 19:42:25 but gave up because the concepts were way over my head 19:42:42 but i was like 12 19:42:55 Ed54: touretzky starts from the bare basics , on paper and pencil 19:43:14 *Ed54* might want to download that now 19:43:17 Ed54: if you can't learn from that book, then i'd suggest that programming might not be for you :) 19:43:19 dwave- [i=dwave@100.84-49-235.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 19:43:20 i don't have broadband at home 19:43:26 don't worry 19:43:28 *Ed54* is smart 19:43:30 can you watch youtube/google videos? 19:43:43 Phoodus: i can right now 19:43:45 Ed54: Programming is a lot of fun. It's a rewarding pursuit. 19:43:55 here's a great lecture series on the basics: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5546836985338782440 19:44:00 Ed54: then it might even seem a little slow starting .. but trust me, do the exercises. 19:44:14 Ed54: it's the class that uses the SICP book 19:44:30 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:43 (yay, listen to school lectures on your own time!) \:D/ 19:45:57 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:12 Phoodus: are you really suggesting that someone with not programming experience and who is barely in high school start with SICP? i mean .. more power to the person who can actually start there, but there are significantly better introductory texts. 19:46:17 the entire book is 1 mb??? 19:46:19 wow 19:47:05 drewc: the thing about SICP is that it talks about what programming _is_ and how it works, not just necessarily language specifics 19:47:14 Yeah, the argument that SICP is an introductory text needs to be qualified with the fact that it was an intro text for students at MIT. 19:47:27 hey, he said he was smart :) 19:48:32 wow, the vid is an actual lecture 19:48:35 -!- xreyes_ [n=xreyes@8.84-48-175.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:48:40 don't see that much online :) 19:48:49 ReiniUrban [n=chatzill@212-183-52-101.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 19:49:20 Ed54: indeed, it's a whole semester worth of lectures for the best intruduction to computer programming in MIT history! 19:49:42 ahaas: and that there is (was) a significant support structure -at MIT- to get students through the course. 19:49:48 the guy looks weird 19:50:02 sykopomp: That's a good point. I hadn't considered that. 19:50:29 .. and it was still considered a hard course that separates the wheat/chaff 19:50:47 6.001 .. are you sure you want to be in compsci? :) 19:51:01 SICP can differently be read and understood as teen. I did it myself. And I'm by far not the smartest person around. 19:51:09 s/differently/definitively/ 19:51:10 ah, you wait years of an asdf replacement, and two come at once 19:51:15 the SICP course was taught over here at UMass Amherst. It's 287 here. :P 19:51:45 tcr: were you familiar with programming? 19:52:05 Somewhat, yes. 19:52:21 Then again, UMass is yet another school that's dropping SICP like a bad habit. Next semester's the last run of the course. It's getting replaced with a class on how to refactor Java with Eclipse and how to use Design Patterns (in Java) 19:52:36 tcr: i think that's the point i'm trying to make :). Touretzky first.. then SICP :) 19:52:51 I liked Touretzky as an intro. 19:53:05 drewc: Yeah, I wouldn't have suggested SICP myself. Perhaps HTDP, but I haven't read it myself. 19:53:09 That's what -I- started with, at least. Then again, it's -ancient-. 19:53:29 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 19:53:37 i mean .. i learned most of my real programming skills from K&R, but i would not suggest it as in intro to programming. 19:53:40 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-48-213.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:53:41 -!- ReiniUrban is now known as rurban 19:53:49 ( learned the rest from PAIP :)) 19:54:01 tcr: i've heard good things about HTDP 19:54:26 sykopomp: it's not all that ancient.. it's CL, for one. 19:54:31 Hm. I think it was from the QuickBASIC tutorial, a book on x86 ASM followed by K&R probably. But I just started hacking and looked up things as I needed. :) 19:54:50 drewc: it's pre-standard, IIRC 19:55:11 sykopomp, say it sain't so (about SICP) 19:55:13 sykopomp: indeed .. but post lisp1.5 .. has lexical scope :) 19:55:18 that is so sad 19:55:32 int80_h: SICP is pre-standard as well... 19:55:49 as the standard is r6rs now after all 19:55:59 yeah but to replace it with a java intro. that happened at Umass/Boston too 19:56:02 Is K&R still a good choice to learn C programming properly? I know its syntax, but not the details of its semantics. 19:56:04 int80_h: SICP is dead. It's out of UMass, it's out of MIT, and probably getting dropped elsewhere. 19:56:27 well, the last stage *is* acceptance 19:56:40 tcr: indeed, the best IMO. 19:57:29 I've kinda given up on academia for now. I think I'd be better off learning most of this stuff by myself, and asking people every now and then for new resources to go after. 19:57:35 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A273A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:57:36 in fact .. the only book on C i've ever needed to own. 19:57:48 The biggest advantage that Ed54 has is that he has time. 19:57:57 what about the guy steele reference drewc? 19:57:59 sykopomp: I share your sentiment. 19:58:29 if I had to rely on academia I'd never have heard of lisp, or haskell .. or netbsd 19:58:38 int80_h: i never buy reference books... that's what computers are best at. 19:58:57 int80_h: I was at least hoping that getting into academia for a little longer would speed up my progress, or improve its quality. 19:59:01 int80_h: ignorance is bliss! 19:59:15 Sadly, it did neither, but I'm -very- familiar with Java, Design Patterns, and the Monoculture now. 19:59:21 (although I value that very little) 19:59:27 sykopomp: if you wanted to do compsci, then yes. Programming? non. 19:59:38 you must have a better monitor than me. I hate reading lengthy texts on a screen 19:59:59 drewc: I -do- want to do compsci, but even that I feel I can learn by myself. I'm pretty comfortable just grinding through books and academic papers myself. 20:00:02 academia is, shall we say, out of touch with the realities of programming practice. 20:00:30 drewc: not all of academia, surely 20:00:32 sykopomp: I am almost 100% self taught, so if you are comfortable doing so, it is a valid path. 20:00:39 drewc: I like programming, and doing 'practical' things, but I also am really interested in going into more theoretical stuff, maybe dipping toes into some part of AI. 20:00:43 michaelw: surely not... :) 20:01:20 yeah I'd like to have enough of a theoretical framework of operating systems to be able to do meaningful practical work 20:01:29 for example 20:01:41 michaelw: the focus on exotic static type systems and FP is, i think, misplaced. 20:01:50 int80_h: my christmas list this year was a list of 4-5 comp sci text books :P 20:02:13 drewc: Um, why? 20:04:24 Dynetrekk_ [n=Dynetrek@vpn-21655.vpn-s.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 20:04:24 yeah I have an ARM manual on there 20:04:42 plus I want santa to bring me a gumstix 20:04:49 xreyes_ [n=xreyes@8.84-48-175.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:50 tcr: well, good question.. and bear with me if i can't articulate an answer properly ... but.. 20:05:24 int80_h: Dragon Book, PAIP, and two books on OGL. That's mostly because I got impatient and got Mythical Man-month, GEB, and AMOP myself :| 20:05:56 int80_h: I'm thinking of going through SICP and the MIT lectures next semester, mebbe. 20:06:11 nice 20:06:26 drewc: Trying to conflate theorem proving (that is automatic verification), and programming languages, is very much worth research. 20:06:54 okay I just made some changes to Xwindows to fix the emacs problem I had..restarting I'll brb 20:06:56 -!- int80_h [n=michael@h-68-166-221-28.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:07:17 automatic verification should perhaps better be called machine-aided verification, as it doesn't mean that the computer will automagically be able to reason about programs. 20:07:23 tcr: theorem proving is not very automatic yet :) model checking on the other hand... :) 20:08:33 tcr: actually .. you're right. I think my complaint is that more schools should be teaching CompEng rather than CompSci. 20:08:49 s/rather than/on top of 20:09:38 I wouldn't ever recommend anyone to use Common Lisp proper for critical applications, although JPL showed that it is indeed possible. 20:09:51 sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:10:22 *sykopomp* thinks CL mostly just has tool and community issues. 20:10:22 drewc: because it has more practical application? 20:11:00 maodun [n=stopgo@c-67-180-49-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:08 -!- Vratha_ [n=grimw@ool-4356a143.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:11:19 rsynnott: because practcal application should not be of importance in a compsci program, and here we are dropping SICP for java. 20:12:05 ah, fair enough, yep 20:12:10 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178044068.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:12:15 you probably don't learn any computer science in the first two years of most computer science programs anyway 20:12:24 (though it's questionable whether entirely practical courses should be taught in universities anyway) 20:12:33 that's not really what universities are for 20:12:44 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:13:05 mulligan [n=user@e178044068.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:13:08 there does seem to be a lot of stuff that anyone half-way competent can easily learn on their own, now, though 20:13:20 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has quit ["Ni!"] 20:13:27 rsynnott: yeaaahhh... 20:14:16 then again, why wouldn't people be able to learn more intense Comp Sci stuff themselves, to boot? 20:14:27 they would be 20:14:47 but they might never even encounter the concepts, otherwise 20:14:55 the advantage of a compsci program is not the material, it's the environment. 20:15:05 -!- sam___ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:15:31 let me ask again, while the channel is alive: Has anybody successfully built lisp .exe programs using ECL in Windows and cl.exe? 20:15:31 I think it's interesting that a lot of the environment -and- the material can be accessed from off-campus more and more nowadays. 20:15:40 mit gives away all the material! 20:15:46 rsynnott: if they are motivated. sadly enough even students often seem not motivated enough despite 20:15:58 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 20:16:10 +going to courses 20:17:19 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 20:18:44 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:19:51 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:20:11 I do need to find a way to be more in touch with the CS world, from outside, though :( 20:20:51 Is there a convenient way to convert a list of bits in two's complement to a negative integer? 20:22:12 invert bits, +1 20:22:18 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:22:30 oh, you mean in list format? 20:22:50 that would convernt an int to two's complement, no? 20:22:50 ahaas: flip all the bits, reconstruct, lognot. 20:23:40 pkhuong: Ok, I knew the operations, but I was hoping for something like an coercing a bit-vector or something. 20:24:06 pkhuong: Thanks again for your writer example. I learned several things from that. 20:25:31 What's the best way to flip the bits? (abs (lognot x)) and drop the overflow? 20:25:35 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 20:26:16 lispm [n=joswig@f054054245.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:26:25 isn't there an xor somewhere? 20:26:46 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:27:33 (logxor x (1- (expt 8))) ? 20:27:48 (expt 2 8), I meant 20:28:31 Seems inefficient to build that mask. 20:28:45 ahaas: you have a list of bits; it's already inefficient. 20:29:09 ok 20:31:00 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-38-6.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:35:16 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:35:37 -!- vick [n=abc@217.54.232.182] has quit [Network is unreachable] 20:39:48 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.244.105] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 20:41:21 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:44:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 20:45:02 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:12 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 20:45:20 -!- davazp [n=user@100.Red-79-157-95.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:47:05 -!- carbocalm [i=carbocal@69-196-171-169.dsl.teksavvy.com] has left #lisp 20:47:18 carbocalm [i=carbocal@69-196-171-169.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 20:48:23 afa [n=afa@131.152.178.51] has joined #lisp 20:57:17 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-240-73.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:02:19 oudeis: there? 21:05:53 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-240-73.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:07:52 how do I unload a file from sbcl? I need to replace a file with a newer one 21:08:33 do I just re-load the same file with the content changed? 21:08:35 -!- Ed54 [n=ed@cpe-76-181-62-205.columbus.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 21:08:39 prolly 21:09:02 yes, it will redefine defenitions 21:09:17 though, removed defenitions will stay 21:09:25 younder [n=jpthing@062016236162.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 21:09:51 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:58 sam___ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 21:12:26 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-182-92.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:13:34 O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-13-124.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 21:13:54 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 21:14:38 argh 21:15:36 what's wrong? 21:16:15 mm.. another typo "Oops... we're don't have a bucket or chain, do we?" notice "...we're don't have..." 21:16:41 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:16:50 stassats`: I am following the casting spels tutorial 21:17:01 ah, ok 21:18:38 so I gotta restart all over? 21:19:11 breinded: Are you using SLIME? 21:19:12 once I get this message I can't undo? STYLE-WARNING: redefining DUNK in DEFUN 21:19:32 breinded: it is just a style-warning 21:19:43 (weld chain bucket) ==> (YOU DO NOT HAVE THE CHAIN.) 21:19:57 and I am getting (I CANT WELD LIKE THAT.) 21:20:03 oO 21:20:31 do you have defvar somewhere? 21:22:24 and yes, it is better to use slime, edit / manual reload development cycle is not very productive 21:25:11 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-240-73.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:27:04 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:27:11 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 21:27:34 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:29:50 I've thought about this lately. Edit/compile/run is reasonably productive, if your compiler is fast. 21:30:40 hefner: for lisp, or in general? 21:30:44 depends a lot on the environment too.. 21:30:44 you don't waste time tripping over different editor buffers, and you get to use sophisticated unix facilities like grep and less to sift through your trace output, instead of having emacs melt down as the slime-repl slowly fills the universe. 21:31:04 rsynnott: in general, but I'm thinking of lisp. 21:31:40 *rsynnott* has files which are big enough that recompiling them entirely is quite irritationg 21:31:44 *irritating 21:31:45 hefner: otoh, you don't get the same testing experience. Checking for errors is much less productive, since edit/compile/run is very inefficient in that respect. 21:31:46 although slime-style is nice for random hacky things where you want to collect some data while the program runs and sift through it. 21:31:50 it maybe good for testing the whole program, but what if i want to test just one function? 21:31:52 of course, possibly I should make smaller files :) 21:32:06 s/maybe/may be/ 21:32:16 if you're using something like fiveam properly, you're even building your unit tests in the meantime 21:32:30 stassats`: that's a valid argument. 21:32:37 as opposed to the usual tactic of slapping print("ohnoes, an error"); in the places where you think an error *might* be. 21:32:45 hefner: would you include forgoing slime's debugger interface in this? 21:32:55 and inspector? 21:33:15 (you'll take my slime fancy inspector from my cold dead fingers) :) 21:33:59 rsynnott: I'm not such a fan of the slime debugger (although I've lately become accustomed to using it to jump to source), and I rarely use the inspector 21:34:48 I was generally happier using the cmucl debugger directly in ilisp, but that probably has more to do with cmucl doing a better job of retaining variable names and source locations 21:35:08 mm... 21:35:13 anyway, my point is just that something like slime, done poorly, is much worse than edit/compile/run 21:35:20 something is wrong 21:36:10 hefner: how so? 21:37:08 what's next after I am done with the casting spels tutorial? 21:37:17 pcl? 21:37:26 breinded: I'd say Touretzky 21:37:36 minion: please tell breinded about gentle 21:37:36 breinded: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 21:37:49 breinded, I like PCL. First book on Lisp I read. 21:38:09 breinded: PCL is good if you're an experienced programmer. 21:38:19 hefner: slime is done decently well, IMO 21:38:22 otherwise, you're gonna hit some walls. 21:38:30 define 'experienced programmer' 21:38:45 is good to hit walls 21:38:49 stassats`: not completely new to programming. 21:38:50 I do that all the time 21:38:51 (I was recently lamenting lack of a viable SLIME-equivalent for Python, which seems on the face of it a good candidate for one) 21:39:15 sykopomp: ok, that i can say about myself 21:39:23 breinded: It's better to understand some things before jumping into PCL. That was my experience. I tried jumping into PCL a few times, and just went and read Gentle Intro first. 21:39:25 was much nicer. 21:39:28 lisp is my frist attempt at programming 21:39:28 yep, PCL isn't an introduction to programming in general, but if you have some programming experience you should be okay 21:39:43 rsynnott: I agree, although I wonder about its development. It seems to have reached that plateau where for a casual user, updating just breaks things randomly 21:39:43 (I wouldn't say it's just for _experienced_ programmers though) 21:39:47 mainly because I am annoyed on how languages are taught 21:39:55 S11001001: Are you here? 21:40:01 hi tcr 21:40:01 S11001001, memo from fusss: how do i send static files and moreover how to hook into the hunchentoot dispatch table, say, for sending custom headers, like with user-defined values. 21:40:02 stassats`: That's the definition I was using in this sense. The margin is probably significantly higher in general. 21:40:05 just hacking some python 21:40:27 -!- spec[away] is now known as Spec 21:40:32 -!- Spec is now known as mrSpec 21:40:35 -!- carbocalm [i=carbocal@69-196-171-169.dsl.teksavvy.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:40:45 sykopomp: yes, that is why i asked 21:40:54 I must admit I'm watching the hemlock thing that comes with ccl with interest; it could probably be developed into something better than slime (for ccl only, of course) with less effort than bringing slime to the same level 21:41:20 rsynnott: what about something like Climacs? 21:41:42 (the last time I updated slime, it acquired a new irritating behavior where it wants to repeatedly insert output before the point) 21:41:44 I must say I haven't actually tried climacs 21:41:46 S11001001: What's the rationale behind the defun-walking? 21:42:03 er, defun walking? 21:42:13 are you referring to my sbcl feature request? 21:42:15 funebre [n=mfunebre@c-67-170-13-67.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:16 S11001001: cl-cont 21:42:24 is it in a usable state? 21:42:42 we don't produce regular functions; we produce instances of funcallable/cc 21:42:42 rsynnott: it's not really usable right now, but I find the idea of a mcclim-based, fully-CL editor quite appealing. 21:42:55 rsynnott: For 20,000E, I think you could Slime improve considerably. 21:43:02 hmm the FPQi book is too academic :/ 21:43:03 hefner: that seems to happen occasionally (the new input default being in the wrong place thing) 21:43:05 when called, they make up the continuation and pass it in 21:43:12 I think it could be developed into a very nice environment, which could be used cross-implementation. 21:43:18 except when called from CPS code, where the continuation is provided 21:43:22 tcr: for 20,000 euro I'd improve slime myself :) 21:43:35 we can't make them regular functions because then they couldn't be called from both CPS and normal code 21:43:57 (by which I mean that the bug seems to turn up and go away again every now and again) 21:43:59 rsynnott: 20,000E would mean I could hack on Slime part-time for two years. 21:44:11 does the turosky book have exercises? 21:44:17 breinded: yes. 21:44:29 tcr: you should take a collection :) 21:44:42 for an example of poor productivity, I'd point to trying to use Factor with emacs three or four months ago (now there's a new mode I haven't tried, which should be much better). Between the compiler being glacially slow, and every source file in your program being in a separate namespace (and the editor mode not being smart enough to deal with it), it was a mess. 21:44:51 tcr: we must start a fundraiser 21:44:55 (also, SOMEONE should take a collection to register cliki.net for the next 10 years and be done with it :)) 21:45:11 what's the FPQ book? 21:45:30 rsynnott: I was offered funding after my slime talk. I refused, as I'm booked for the comming year already. I said they should contact clozure instead. 21:45:47 tcr: ah, that's a shame 21:45:47 breinded: about Qi, language on top of common lisp 21:46:02 I'm not whining abot SLIME, for the record. :) 21:46:15 why wait until something better magically 'appears' make something better oneself? 21:46:31 nor am I; for all its quirks it's probably the nicest IDE-type thing I've used 21:46:32 S11001001: You mean you're shadowing CL:DEFUN? 21:46:41 not at all 21:46:57 it is a special transformer from within with-call/cc forms 21:47:07 breinded: if you have time, sure 21:47:20 when special transformers aren't present cont macroexpands, of course 21:47:23 -!- afa [n=afa@131.152.178.51] has quit [] 21:47:34 rsynnott: I agree, I feel handcuffed when I use anything else.. 21:47:53 S11001001: In the past (just like now), you walked defuns specially, right? I.e. You didn't macroexpand the defun form, and walked the expansion, right? 21:48:04 right 21:48:11 (the distel thing for erlang is a close second, but is clearly at inspired by slime or predecessors) 21:48:16 cont only macroexpands when a special transformer isn't registered 21:48:24 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 21:48:46 S11001001: Alright, because SBCL's DEFUN expands to non-portable code. 21:48:52 and I'm still bemused that no-one's done a swank-for-python equiv 21:48:54 we have some for flet, mulvb, and pretty much all the special forms I think 21:48:54 S11001001: (non-conformingly) 21:49:00 tcr: you don't really want to transform the code that registers the function, only the function's body itself, so trying to deal with defun as a regular macro is lossy. 21:49:30 incidentally you can probably pull my Clozure implementation of locations and lambda lists from http://home.nocandysw.com/~sirian/lisp/cl-cont/ if that's still working 21:50:27 rsynnott: didn't lukego write distel? 21:50:38 that would make it a predecessor of slime =p 21:50:48 you mean successor 21:50:50 oh, so he did! 21:50:55 never noticed 21:51:28 S11001001: Thought about using cl-walker? 21:52:22 tcr: as a matter of interest, is the emacs-side or the lisp-side of slime generally more work for a given feature? 21:52:29 no 21:53:12 if I ever get around to rewriting the transformer so that it doesn't blindly transform even code sections that can't have suspensions, maybe I'll use that 21:53:25 but tbqh if I had written weblocks I would have just used arnesi and been done with it 21:53:30 tcr: I do mean predecessor. 21:55:12 rsynnott: It depends on what you're trying to do. Doing something completely new on the emacs side, means I have to first read through the relevant sections of the Emacs manual (which is _really_ good) 21:56:12 hefner: I may be the one who has it wrong then. I heard of distel as a slime for erlang which somewhat implies slime being there first 21:58:56 (though distel is more than that in that it's also a library for making emacs pretend to be an erlang node) 21:59:14 In practice, of course, things like distel are probably the only useful development of that 21:59:51 well, clustered emacs? :P 22:00:20 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 22:00:45 it would, of course, make it trivial to write a jabber version of the eliza bot :) 22:01:14 does mark tarver sit on irc? 22:02:18 weirdo: no. 22:02:35 well, at least not here 22:02:46 is it possible to comment and comment out in lisp? 22:02:57 rsynnott: i have jabber version of minion (which is eliza) 22:04:19 ah, but does it work as an ejabberd module through a frightening elisp layer? :) 22:05:25 is the source of minion available? 22:05:36 surely no, it uses cl-xmpp 22:05:44 kleppari: yes 22:06:10 http://paste.lisp.org/system-server/show/cliki-bot 22:06:59 ah, cool, thanks. :) 22:07:58 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 22:08:05 hope someone makes a slime-qi-mode 22:08:09 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-240-73.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:08:18 for autodoc, compile etc 22:09:34 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has joined #lisp 22:09:35 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:09:35 breinded: Go read Gentle Intro. A question like that is just way too basic. 22:09:46 *stassats`* doesn't know whether he likes qi 22:10:34 I can start doing my idea right away after reading casting spels!! 22:11:00 cool I don't have to graduate or anything 22:11:24 oh my goodness. This can only end in tears. 22:11:57 sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 22:12:01 hmm, qi has quite the weirdest licensing system I've ever seen 22:12:09 sykopomp: I am reading it already, my question was HOW to comment and comment out 22:12:22 breinded: ; 22:12:34 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:12:41 ; # 22:12:44 oops 22:12:44 (free for personal/academic usage; for commercial usage, license comes WITH BOOK) 22:12:47 #| |# 22:13:05 buy a book 22:13:07 sweet, thanks 22:13:27 does anyone own the Qi book? 22:13:57 I would buy one, but have not the time to read it... 22:14:13 intellectual property must die, disappear as well as the patenting system 22:14:27 period 22:14:34 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:54 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has left #lisp 22:15:26 hmm so with the qi license commercial software can be written iff it's open-sourced? 22:15:36 weirdo: probably 22:15:48 sounds like gpl 22:16:03 (I suppose that license which only allowed vegans to use the licensed software is a bit weirder) 22:16:24 gpl must die too 22:16:32 oh, no, not like gpl 22:16:50 what license is that, rsynnott 22:17:34 -!- sam___ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:17:50 perhaps, VPL, vegan public license 22:18:13 license which only allowed vegans to use the licensed software 22:18:17 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/01/26/exttld_license/ 22:18:25 -!- Dynetrekk_ [n=Dynetrek@vpn-21655.vpn-s.ntnu.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:19:00 that's the one 22:19:40 (seems difficult given the extremely strict terms and the fact that many computers (or at least older compiuters) will contain some animal products, but anyway... 22:20:54 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:21:29 -!- jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:22:08 josemanuel [n=josemanu@167.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:24:38 minion: cltl2 22:24:39 cltl2: "Common Lisp the Language, 2nd ed" is a book by Guy Steele that describes the state of Common Lisp as it was partway through the ANSI process. http://www.cliki.net/cltl2 22:25:58 minion: cltl1 22:25:59 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cltl1''. 22:26:23 minion: cltl3 22:26:24 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:26:24 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cltl3''. 22:26:27 minion: cltl 22:26:27 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cltl''. 22:26:55 minion: what do you know? 22:26:55 i can't divulge what i know 22:27:11 tcr: if you had to prioritize your latest bug reports/improvement requests, what would be the top 5? 22:29:14 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:15 pkhuong: I don't think I have any priorities. I'll probably fix the #:42 myself because I'm acquainted with sbcl's reader. 22:29:20 *ahaas* finally gets his swf-parser back in working condition 22:30:15 pkhuong: I'd really like the DISASSEMBLE one 22:30:39 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:31:19 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:31:21 tcr: eek, that one will take some thinking. I'll try and hit the easy ones in the optimisation stuff. 22:31:26 pkhuong: And the type derivation for char-code issue wouldn't be bad too. I encountered the issue while hacking readtable-iterators. (Not that it matters performance-wise) 22:31:44 Apparently Helmut has trouble managing the hot young blood.. 22:31:57 _CitizenKane__ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 22:33:02 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 22:33:28 -!- Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:34:25 salamander2 [n=gds@81.169.133.125] has joined #lisp 22:35:06 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178044068.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:09 -!- salamander2 is now known as MrTapir 22:35:22 lol 22:35:24 ^^ 22:35:31 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e178044068.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:38:41 Dawgmatix [n=dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:38:52 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 22:39:18 pkhuong: Are you familiar with threads, and the runtime? (call_into_lisp etc) 22:39:25 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:40:20 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:42:00 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:44:04 gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:45:54 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:57 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:51:18 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@167.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:51:37 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 22:53:38 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cad439-219.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:39 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-107-171.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:55:04 interesting, sbcl can be used as a calculator!! 22:55:19 (+ 2 2) 22:55:34 => 4 22:55:42 Yes ;) It can 22:55:51 bash can't 22:56:12 an extra program is needed 22:56:12 expr 2 + 2 22:56:33 echo $((2 + 2)) 22:56:40 oh, 22:57:01 my bad 22:58:07 so far lisp looks like a cool toy to play with 22:58:12 also echo $[2 + 2] 22:58:14 btw. You can add really huge numbers 22:58:34 breinded, it is your first day with Lisp ? 22:58:53 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:59:02 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:01:34 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a16-106.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:03:56 what function will tell me the age of the universe in seconds? 23:04:26 i'm happy if i starts from any arbitrary other point in time so long as i know what that point is 23:04:35 s/if i/if it/ 23:06:05 mbac: take the length of a year in seconds, multiply by 14.5 billion 23:06:13 (I think that's the current estimate :) ) 23:06:27 ok, what will tell me the length of the current year in seconds 23:06:40 (/ (get-internal-real-time) internal-time-units-per-second) will tell you the age of the lisp process 23:06:43 mrSpec: yes 23:07:29 (or, if you're an eccentric, by 6000; one little-known advantage of fundamentalist christianity is that it allows you to stay within the bounds of a 64bit number when calculating the age of the universe) 23:07:46 heheh 23:07:56 (depending on your platform, the silly version of the age of the universe may fit in a fixnum) 23:08:03 mbac: (* 365 (* 24 (* 60 60))) 23:08:14 (however, the age of that early sumarian civilisation won't; figure THAT one out) :) 23:08:43 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:08:52 breinded, what induced You to learn it ? 23:09:03 *hefner* used to use lisp as a calculator for physics homework 23:09:23 rvirding, that's not precise enough 23:09:39 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.216.108] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:05 mbac: well, taking leap years into account would be fine, but leap seconds would actually be quite tricky 23:10:18 also, while we're at it, what will tell me the number of seconds that have elapsed since the start of this year 23:10:25 (I believe they're intercalated approximately whenever someone feels like it) 23:11:04 sam___ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 23:11:19 mbac: you asked for seconds 23:11:40 you know what, something that thinly wrapped the C library time() would work too, i'm not picky 23:12:02 (- (get-universal-time) (encode-universal-time 0 0 0 1 1 (nth-value 5 (get-decoded-time)))) 23:12:12 something like this 23:12:30 isn't playing with dates FUN? 23:12:45 I always find it really irritating, no matter how good library support may be) 23:13:39 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:13:54 vm [n=user@adsl68-130.lsf.forthnet.gr] has joined #lisp 23:14:27 rsynnott, #'* is variadic 23:16:54 oh yes, time is great fun 23:16:55 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:47 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:48 kudos on finding a use for the word "intercalate", by the way 23:19:09 -!- rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:26 -!- vm [n=user@adsl68-130.lsf.forthnet.gr] has left #lisp 23:22:50 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:23:16 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:28:54 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:29:50 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:30:29 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:31:34 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:38 eviltangerine [n=robert@c-76-28-234-221.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:33:51 ikki [n=ikki@189.228.229.54] has joined #lisp 23:35:03 w00t 23:35:12 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:35:47 wow, I just fashioned a laptop stand in a few minutes pretty awsome 23:37:19 good night! 23:37:37 nite, and many thanks for the help 23:38:11 -!- mrSpec [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has quit ["c Ya!"] 23:38:28 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:59 ruediger [n=the-rued@p508B3E4F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:11 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-24-16-246-158.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:40:30 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:42:05 -!- defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-9fcfe7894e981f8f] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:12 rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:44:14 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-181.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:46:18 nute [n=nute@adsl-70-237-204-247.dsl.stlsmo.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:46:44 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-24-16-246-158.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:47:01 -!- eviltangerine [n=robert@c-76-28-234-221.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:48:18 -!- sam___ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 23:49:45 -!- eviltangerine_ [n=robert@vpn-250-41.caltech.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:50:47 sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 23:53:19 0 results found for 23:53:20 lisp machine 23:53:24 ebay fails 23:55:12 mbac: they might be listed as Symbolics [product number] or similar 23:55:23 though there probably aren't that many for sale these days :) 23:58:22 They're all either broken, or in the hands of people who want them 23:59:26 though opengenera can be run through emulation on an amd64, I think 23:59:31 Try asking Rainer Joswig at comp.lang.lisp..