00:00:46 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:04:39 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.193.182] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:07:10 -!- funebre [n=mfunebre@c-67-170-13-67.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:09:22 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:09:57 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 00:12:05 xan: read-from-string is not reasonable, use find-symbol or intern 00:12:25 -!- p_l [n=plasek@pp82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:13:18 stassats`, why is it not reasonable? 00:15:13 because you don't need it 00:16:19 I tried intern first but I didn't manage to lose the '|' at both sides of the symbol, I guess I'm missing something obvious 00:16:48 -!- EtFb [n=etfb@203.22.236.8] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net/"] 00:17:18 sure, upcase your string 00:17:46 xan: Yes. Common Lisp by default uppercases read symbols, so the name of the symbol that's returned by (read-from-string "foo") is "FOO". If you want to use INTERN to recreate this symbol, you should uppercase it first. 00:18:12 stassats`, so the only reason to avoid read-from-string is that it's overkill basically? 00:18:13 xan: The notation |foo| is used to denote a symbol whose name would otherwise be unprintable. 00:18:46 xan: yes, it's a full reader 00:18:46 chandler, I see, I actually tried to find that in the doc but failed. Thanks 00:22:39 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 00:23:19 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:23:54 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.193.182] has joined #lisp 00:26:27 -!- segv [n=mb@72-255-42-154.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 00:27:08 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-050-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:27 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:29:29 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has joined #lisp 00:31:18 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:31:31 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has quit [] 00:32:19 sdwsdsd [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:34:26 -!- dcl is now known as spiderbyte 00:34:39 -!- patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:28 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.193.182] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:05 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:10 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-017-215.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:39 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 00:40:57 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:42:02 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:44:21 -!- sdwsdsd is now known as dto 00:46:44 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:47:03 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has left #lisp 00:48:11 -!- NoorDextor [n=Game450@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["Go Canada!"] 00:49:18 weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 00:49:29 just installed stumpwm 00:49:48 so scary, hand-holding would prove useful 00:50:38 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:00 weirdo: read the manual 00:51:22 i am, but it's a large paradigm shift 00:51:30 play with it 00:51:37 hey! I decided to write straight html server by apache, and have the ajax call-backs sent to sbcl, instead of having everything run under weblocks 00:51:38 :-) 00:51:57 StumpWM is pretty nice. Spend a weekend with it and you'll get used to it (it's what I did) 00:52:00 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:14 oh, and what to do with apps requiring a tray? 00:52:30 there are tray applications, such as stalonetray 00:52:42 thank you 00:52:55 you can also just use a native panel. I was using xfce4's panel for a while. 00:53:02 but you can use gnome and kde's if you want. 00:53:04 Why do all the work yourself? 00:53:33 froydnj: Your site seems to be down. 00:53:41 can i force terminal apps to take no more than 80 columns? is it in the manual? 00:54:24 what do you mean? 00:55:02 there's no point for emacs or urxvt to take more than 80 columns 00:55:13 since code is formatted for 80 cols 00:55:38 so i'd rather have emacs/urxvt show a bit of desktop rather than use half of the screen 00:55:49 not that I know of 00:55:59 they'll take as much space as they can 00:56:27 ahaas: remember what you said about flash developers? join #facebook and see if anyone has a clue. amazingly depressing. 00:56:44 fusss: No way. That sounds scary. 00:56:51 fusss: ...there's a #facebook channel. That's amazing. 00:57:35 ahaas: strict "1337" heirarchy where the top dog has a basic command of javascript, and 6 month draining in dreamweaver 00:57:42 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F017.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:58:00 you guys here are a delightful bunch. really. 00:58:47 OT: is there a graphics tool which i can use to click on an image and it would select for me a palette of colors that best approximate the color of the pixel i clicked on? 00:59:13 a whole palette, to approximate one pixel? 01:00:18 no really, just tell me the RGB value and i can incf/decf the tupple to my satisfaction 01:00:38 gimp, inkspace, paint.net :-P 01:02:36 so far, so good. doesn't crash on exceptions in C-t : 01:02:37 :-)) 01:02:47 that'd be great, wouldn't it? 01:03:13 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@ip98-169-46-222.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:01 FYI: If anyone is going to the Game Developer Conference, today is the last day for early registration. 01:08:00 darn. Isn't it way over in california? 01:08:19 It is in San Francisco, which is a wonderful city. 01:08:21 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:32 also across the country :P 01:08:42 I hope I can go at some point :) 01:09:17 sykopomp: It's across the country for me, too. I'm in Atlanta. Where are you? 01:09:25 ahaas: Massachusetts. 01:09:53 The we are still very far apart. 01:10:05 yeah, that's true. 01:10:30 Yeah, I won't be able to go anytime soon. And it's not like I even have a job in the industry. Heh. 01:11:01 I only pretend to have a job in the industry. It's a fun conference, though, if you ever do go. 01:11:34 yeah, it sounds nice :) 01:11:39 bollocks, forgot to add swank to stumpwm image 01:12:00 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:12:06 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@192.117.29.135.static.012.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:12:45 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit [] 01:12:46 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-24-16-246-158.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)"] 01:14:23 *ahaas* regrets deleting his current chipz package before trying to grab the newest one 01:14:56 netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has joined #lisp 01:15:56 ahaas: http://common-lisp.net/~sionescu/files/chipz-0.5.1.tar.bz2 01:16:02 Xof: can you fix the old-sk00l eval-when situation names in clx/depdefs.lisp? 01:16:19 fe[nl]ix: Thanks, but my code was depending on some stuff that's in at least version 7. 01:16:23 -!- ChibaPet [n=mason@64.206.6.254] has quit [] 01:16:47 (although I don't know why that warning was severe enough to drop me into sldb) 01:17:05 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 01:17:29 -!- tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@unaffiliated/tc-rucho] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:18:02 tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@190.191.162.100] has joined #lisp 01:20:18 ahaas: i have 0.7 tree, wait 01:20:18 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:20:42 segv [n=mb@72-255-42-154.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:46 ahaas: http://stassats.dyndns.org/files/chipz.tar.bz2 01:21:08 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:01 stassats`: thanks! 01:26:40 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-24-16-246-158.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:54 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:29:23 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:30:18 inforichland [n=tim@68-118-159-71.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:31:44 a-s [n=user@92.81.96.202] has joined #lisp 01:34:22 ahaas: dunno why, it happens sometimes 01:35:07 froydnj: Ok. I see it now. Is this the latest? It still says 7.0. 01:38:12 -!- xreyes_ [n=xreyes@8.84-48-175.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:38:14 xreyes_ [n=xreyes@8.84-48-175.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 01:39:52 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:40:37 ahaas: hm, the chipz.tar.gz you get from method-combination.net should be 0.7.1 01:40:44 but I can't login to check atm 01:41:05 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-101-69.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:06 Ok, it said 7.0 on the page, but then when I tried to download the tar it wasn't connecting. I'll try again. 01:41:23 oh, right, I didn't update the page for it =/ 01:41:35 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has joined #lisp 01:42:34 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has quit [] 01:43:49 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:44:23 I still can't download the tar. 01:44:27 disumu [n=disumu@p57A27C6D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:38 weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 01:44:46 aiee 01:44:52 ran a sql video game and it crashed 01:45:46 found the color matcher i wanted. http://genopal.com/v2/ :-) 01:46:07 ths__ [n=ths@X404a.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:46:34 -!- inforichland [n=tim@68-118-159-71.dhcp.mdsn.wi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:46:54 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:49:07 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:40 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 01:55:03 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:55:42 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 01:56:23 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:57:34 gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:08 -!- ths [n=ths@X5cd2.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:58:22 is there a way to add a hook that whenever someone sets a particular symbol's value or tries to get it.. that a piece of code is called? 01:59:00 i am adding it at the symbols implmnetation layer.. but was wondering if that wrong and there is a more common way it'd be done 01:59:23 maybe you want a symbol macro 01:59:56 ok looking at DEFINE-SYMBOL-MACRO 02:01:09 looks like setq even works on it 02:01:42 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-24-7-31-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:06:47 persi [n=user@14.sub-70-209-8.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 02:06:58 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA476.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:12:12 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a6f-014.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:13:26 fusss: I still don't get sign extension. 02:15:45 -!- division-bell [n=Kenan@88.238.183.51] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:19:52 setq? setf rather 02:20:53 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 02:22:09 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 02:22:12 weirdo: both. 02:22:42 wow 02:24:54 ahaas: for the variable-length bit arrays? 02:25:07 SB[nBits]? 02:25:36 yeah, I still had it wrong. I'm reading up on it now. 02:25:54 you know nbits is 5, so bit-arrays take 2^5 different values 02:26:38 are you messing up the endianness? 02:27:07 fusss: No, I'm just confused about how the last bit is propogated. 02:27:40 "The seventh bit of the last byte of the encoding is propagated to fill out the 32 bits of the decoded value." 02:28:11 ahaas: they count from 0. The last bit is replicated however many time is needed to fill the destination when sign-extending in 2's complement. 02:28:19 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 02:28:35 but, they are 1 to 5 bytes, based on the value of the 8th bit, so how far do I propagate? 02:29:05 if your unsigned numerical value can fit into (byte 5 0), it's put in there as it is. If it's signed, the sign bit is copied to the left most position and all other bits are copied in the lower (log nibts 2) bits 02:29:12 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:29:43 If I only need one byte to encode a negative value, do I propagate the last one to the 7th bit and leave the 8th as 0? 02:30:17 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 02:31:28 you might need to crop that octet to fit into a 2^5 flash byte 02:32:03 EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has joined #lisp 02:32:51 any way to make the stumpwm modeline refresh every few seconds? 02:32:57 xach trashed me for writing this, but i'm gonna post it nevertheles 02:33:00 right now it only refreshes itself after a command 02:33:48 ahaas: xach's bit-stream library is MUCH cleaner than what i'm about to paste, so you know 02:34:42 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 02:34:56 <_3b> are these the negative values that flash stuff seems to just cast to uint32 and write as unsigned? 02:35:10 _3b: Yeah, and I've been looking at your code, too. 02:35:38 fuss pasted "swf bit-stream frobbage" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72382 02:35:40 fusss: if you copy the sign bit *only* to the 7th position (yuck, variable length encoding :|), you won't get the right number. 02:35:42 They are in two's complement w/ sign extension, like pkhuong said. 02:36:24 pkhuong: i don't know that 02:36:44 <_3b> if it is the part i'm thinking of, as far as i could tell, the spec is just wrong :p 02:36:47 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:52 oh jeez 02:38:25 you don't know what the bit-array is gonna be. 2^5 is anything from 0 to 4 octets 02:39:01 if less than 4 octets, the remaining bits are the lower bits of the next octet and the top is zero filled 02:39:13 pkhuong: But, if the 8th bit determines if the next byte is included, and you carry the sign bit all the way, wouldn't all negative numbers require all 5 bytes? 02:39:15 fusss: come on. I only need 1 bit to encode -1. You'd encode it as #b01000001? That's -63. 02:40:19 ahaas: if the spec is sane (*cough*), I read that as meaning that they'll take the 7th bit of the last byte and use it to fill the remainder of the decoded 32 bit word. 02:40:30 pkhuong: that's why you're not part of the Magic Crew. i really thought i understood the swf spec until nothing worked for me. 02:41:05 fusss: how do you encode -63, though? 02:41:06 pkhuong: Yeah, I think that's what is confusing me. They could have written it better, at least. 02:41:20 "The SWF file format uses 8-bit, 16-bit, 32-bit, 64-bit, signed, and unsigned integer types. All integer values are stored in the SWF file by using little-endian byte order: the least significant byte is stored first, and the most significant byte is stored last, in the same way as the Intel x86 architecture. The bit order within bytes in the SWF file format is big-endian: the most... 02:41:22 ...significant bit is stored first, and the least significant bit is stored last." 02:41:33 that's all there is to it :-) 02:42:13 is this format directive correct? 02:42:20 (format nil "~2,'0a" "1") 02:42:36 ahaas pasted "relevent portion of swf spec" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72383 02:43:05 s32 is my enemy 02:43:17 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@76.214.31.119] has joined #lisp 02:43:28 <_3b> ahaas: try adding (expt 2 32) and writing as u32 if it is negative 02:44:18 ahaas: S32 is not a bit bucket, just a straight numerical value in little endian byte order 02:44:26 <_3b> weirdo: doesn't look like it 02:44:51 fusss: If it's negative, it's in two's complement. Doesn't that matter? 02:45:14 *_3b* wonders if passing 0 for colinc to ~a going into an infinite loop is reasonable 02:45:42 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:46:43 it does. twos complement negative values have a high order bit of 1. you might need to shuffle the lower non-sign bits to the expected storage format, and fill the remaining higher bits with 1s as pkhuong says. 02:46:49 xjrn [n=jim@c-24-7-31-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:01 ahaas: You need (integer-length (abs x)) bits to represent your value, sign bit included. Round that up to a multiple of 7 bits, mask with (1- (ash 1 nbits)), encode with the high bit and win? 02:47:33 win? win my sanity back? That'd be grand. 02:47:53 thanks pkhuong, fusss, _3b 02:48:07 ahaas: we really haven't had the same problem. i thought you were bitten by the bit vectors, the SB[nBits] stuff. Those _are_ a bitch. 02:48:09 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has joined #lisp 02:48:25 127's a nice test case for your encoder. If it comes out as -1, you're doing it wrong ;) 02:48:38 ok, that'll help 02:48:55 fusss: Are the bit vectors in the ABC bytecode? I haven't gotten to that. 02:49:10 <_3b> pkhuong: i seem to remember working out lots of nice edge cases, then having none of it work because the actual app did it differently anyway :) 02:50:22 <_3b> then there is fun stuff like using literals instead of the constant pool or something like that (don't remember exactly, and i think at least the constant pool way works too) 02:50:42 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:51:19 not ABC, it's an swf thing for encoding the frame/rectangle coordinates. the five (byte 5 0) bytes hold the X, Y, Max X, Max Y and nBits necodings. All the X/y?Max values are (expt 2 nBits) wide, so it's self-encoding. nBits is always 5 bits wide. 02:51:57 fusss: Oh, I have that working. Or at least I think I do. 02:52:04 -!- gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:52:09 gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:23 I thought this s32 stuff was working until my latest swf didn't play. 02:52:25 _3b: ah, lovely. I at least get the source (next task: get some profware to compile on gcc > 3.x). 02:52:49 both xach and I had to write our own bit-stream reading libraries. no away around it. again, xach's cl-flash is your friend. 02:54:17 *fusss* returns to choosing a color scheme and being photoshop-kids' bitch on IRC 02:54:34 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has joined #lisp 02:57:38 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:59:27 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:59:50 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.2.185] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:00:07 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 03:02:03 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:03:48 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:04:50 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["restart fucking Windows"] 03:07:36 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has joined #lisp 03:11:56 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 03:14:20 netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has joined #lisp 03:17:40 gonzojive_ [n=red@ip98-169-46-222.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:55 -!- gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:17:59 -!- EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net/"] 03:19:41 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:20:03 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:22:18 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A27C6D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 03:22:51 jlf`` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:23:05 ahaas: doh! off by 1. (1+ (integer-length x)) bits are needed. 03:23:25 pkhuong: To include the sign? 03:23:50 ahaas: yes. 03:24:04 even positive numbers need a sign bit (: 03:24:12 I had missed that. 03:27:19 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@ip98-169-46-222.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 03:31:08 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 03:31:11 pkhuong: Which function would you use to perform the mask? 03:31:24 ahaas: (1- (ash 1 length)) 03:31:53 oh, and logand. That, or just ldb directly. 03:32:16 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:35:54 jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:36 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has joined #lisp 03:37:45 bartleby [n=steve@adsl-75-28-155-172.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:56 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:45:28 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:44 pkhuong annotated #72383 with "encode-s32" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72383#1 03:47:27 This may be helpful. 03:47:33 IKidnapGnomes [n=bennett@74-143-77-2.static.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 03:47:42 and my wife just brought me a plate of crackers! 03:47:58 pkhuong: I really appreciate your help. 03:49:25 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:49:38 ahaas: It's a welcome distraction from my current work. 03:50:49 pkhuong: unknown-block: ENCODE? 03:51:41 erh, right (return-from encode-s32 ...). 03:54:41 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-75.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:54:52 gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:46 good night, pkhuong. Thanks, again. I'll have to examine your solution more carefully tomorrow. 04:07:45 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:12:14 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:12:22 Quadresce` [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:22 glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.99] has joined #lisp 04:17:24 -!- Quadresce` is now known as Quadrescence 04:18:54 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:19:23 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:20:00 http://inciclopedia.wikia.com/wiki/Imagen:Useremacs.jpg 04:20:57 -!- segv [n=mb@72-255-42-154.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 04:23:07 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 04:23:46 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:23:51 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279442397.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 04:27:06 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 04:28:07 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:29:39 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:30:34 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-24-7-31-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:31:02 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-d4db378a8940b1a1] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:37:42 -!- gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:38:01 gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:01 -!- gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:42:32 gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:45 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.166.210] has joined #lisp 04:45:16 weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 04:46:44 -!- xreyes_ [n=xreyes@8.84-48-175.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:47:53 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.210.138] has joined #lisp 04:48:32 merach [n=none@c-71-199-20-205.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:54 NoorDextor [n=Game450@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 04:54:33 Is it fair to say that Lisp (general lisp) special forms are those functions/forms which are "hard coded" into a compiler/interpreter? 04:54:35 -!- tompa [n=thomas@h-224-178.A151.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:54:56 -!- persi [n=user@14.sub-70-209-8.myvzw.com] has left #lisp 04:59:09 xreyes_ [n=xreyes@8.84-48-175.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 05:02:57 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@76.214.31.119] has quit [] 05:03:12 -!- IKidnapGnomes [n=bennett@74-143-77-2.static.insightbb.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:04:05 yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has joined #lisp 05:04:07 -!- yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:04:56 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["reboot emacs"] 05:05:05 IKidnapGnomes [n=bennett@74-143-77-2.static.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 05:06:05 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 05:06:28 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:08:45 rcy [n=rcy@S01060002553240a8.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:53 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 05:12:54 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:15:11 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:12 sure 05:16:27 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 05:16:57 -!- glogic [n=glogic@97.76.48.99] has left #lisp 05:17:49 patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:12 -!- bartleby [n=steve@adsl-75-28-155-172.dsl.irvnca.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:27:26 tompa [n=thomas@h-224-178.A151.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 05:27:43 -!- jbmigel [n=jbm@S010600179a220e57.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:31:27 horray! my first hack around IE short coming. life is great as a web weenie :-) 05:32:03 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:32 evening 05:36:42 hey slyrus 05:37:30 I already wrote a bunch of those fusss :) 05:38:09 any quick solution for fixing a background PNG alpha transparency for IE6? 05:38:11 because it doesn't let you use innerHTML on TRs, I wrote a subset-of-HTML parser that would produce the DOM-nodes I wanted manually from the raw HTML 05:38:36 fusss: yeah, there's some magic CSS you can use 05:38:39 fuckit, i might just drop IE6, i don't expect someone with that ancient crap to visit the site 05:38:46 -!- patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:38:47 ~33% 05:38:51 gaaaaaaaaah 05:39:04 and the target audience is in fact, stupid 05:41:09 S11001001 pasted "IE6 PNG transparency" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72386 05:41:14 kidd2 [n=kidd@70.Red-83-36-89.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:05 just the first rule, change selector to match your alpha pngs 05:42:23 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has quit [] 05:42:39 hjpark [n=user@221.138.197.236] has joined #lisp 05:45:22 holly smoke! 05:45:30 that's borderline sendmail.cf 05:46:01 ok, brb 05:46:05 -!- kidd [n=kidd@70.Red-83-36-89.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:46:43 netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has joined #lisp 05:52:54 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@70.Red-83-36-89.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:53:18 kidd2 [n=kidd@70.Red-83-36-89.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:31 weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 06:01:38 -!- binarycodes 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#lisp 06:52:30 -!- gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-42-150.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:53:27 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:54:32 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 06:54:59 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@dhcp-077-248-142-146.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:55:31 -!- IKidnapGnomes [n=bennett@74-143-77-2.static.insightbb.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:55:50 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 06:58:22 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:59:38 koning_robot [n=aap@dhcp-077-248-142-146.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 07:00:35 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 07:01:07 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has joined #lisp 07:01:30 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.178.145] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 07:06:36 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:07:02 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.178.145] has joined #lisp 07:07:11 -!- _me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:07:22 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@cpe-67-243-48-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:08:13 -!- chawls [n=nix@bzq-219-145-16.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:08:20 chawls [n=nix@bzq-219-145-16.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:24 bartiosze [i=bartiosz@nintendos.pl] has joined #lisp 07:16:07 good morning 07:18:03 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.178.145] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:21:07 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 07:22:25 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.186.173] has joined #lisp 07:23:12 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.186.173] has quit [Client Quit] 07:24:28 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:29:17 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:33:51 hhuu [n=hhuu@61.14.130.209] has joined #lisp 07:33:56 morning mvilleneuve 07:36:32 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:37:31 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:38:46 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:39:30 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has joined #lisp 07:39:35 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 07:44:56 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 07:54:46 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-30-21.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 07:56:31 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 07:58:29 weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:02:18 i nearly trashed windows, copied my data into another box and formatted the harddisk over a prank 08:02:59 for the last two days windows has been crashing on me whenever pc was idle; in the middle of much hacking 08:03:43 someone installed a blue-screen screensaver on my dev laptop. wtf? 08:04:18 How did someone install software on your personal development laptop without your knowledge? 08:04:59 he was installing a database server for me. i bugged him late at night for a copy. had me. 08:05:13 ciocia [n=user@c-71-201-84-72.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:08:56 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@114-198-18-24.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:09:50 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 08:10:27 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"] 08:10:33 Nocebojin [n=shaun@CPE-124-186-227-195.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:16:41 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:20:48 davazp [n=user@100.Red-79-157-95.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:21:44 so how do I tell clim scrollbars what the range of the sheet the correspond to is? 08:22:15 you don't. the sheet has a certain size, and that determines the range of the scrollbars. 08:22:25 instead, you control the size of the sheet. 08:23:05 then incremental-redisplay and scrollbars must be broken 08:23:21 *hefner* shrugs 08:24:52 hmm... I must be doing something wrong with my resize-sheet call too. 08:25:28 I think I'm doing something generally un-climmy in that I seem to want access to the frame and panes from my commands. there's probably a better way to structure things. 08:25:58 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-72.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:27:28 eevar2 [n=jalla@127.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:28:15 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:28:15 I don't think clim works, so I never mind being unclimmy 08:28:31 it might be that I just started with that assumption and never tried hard enough to convince myself otherwise, though. 08:29:06 doesn't sound wrong so far, though 08:29:40 hefner: yeah, I'm beginning to think you might be right. seems like a lot of great ideas, but it's tough making things work because 1) there's a lot of hair there, and 2) some stuff is just busted 08:29:50 it's hard to know if you're doing something wrong or if it's just broken 08:30:20 and don't get me started about some of the horrible usability issues with things like user input 08:32:03 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4f5b.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:33:26 I'm sure much of that can be blamed on mcclim being wonky 08:34:16 -!- hhuu [n=hhuu@opensuse/member/xwhu] has quit [] 08:35:34 i haven't found a good demo app that does scrolling and zooming the way I like that I can ape. i'm thinking of trying to make a scrollable, zoomable image viewer to educate myself (and to test mcclim). 08:36:53 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:37:13 what's the desired interaction? 08:37:23 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:38:06 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:38:06 horizontal and vertical scroll, horizontal and vertical zoom, all controlled by 4 scrollbars (or 2 scrollbars and two slider/button things) 08:38:18 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:41:29 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:41:52 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:41:56 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:43:06 -!- Nocebojin [n=shaun@CPE-124-186-227-195.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:43:27 the draggable-graph demo freezes my lisp process :( 08:43:37 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:43:37 works with clx :) 08:43:56 this is clx 08:44:40 oh, neat. mine too. 08:45:09 dtoxx [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:46:18 I must admit, these backtraces are a little hard to read 08:47:03 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@32.175.64.239] has joined #lisp 08:47:06 I didn't even get a backtrace... 08:47:11 hey lemonodor 08:47:17 oh, awesome. condition: Unhandled breakpoint/trap at #x2B2BC7586FD1 08:47:38 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.74.152] has joined #lisp 08:47:42 hey there slyrus_ 08:48:39 hi lemonoder 08:50:18 dear god. who thought it was a good idea to call a display function from compose-space? 08:50:22 i got a new desk bopokekel;f 08:50:56 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-30-21.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:50:56 *hefner* grumbles at the spec 08:50:59 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 08:53:39 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:53:44 addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 08:54:34 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Operation timed out] 08:54:38 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:55 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:55:19 hmm... drawing images with draw-pattern* doesn't seem to reflect with-scaling :( 08:55:35 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 08:55:38 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:55:38 -!- dtoxx [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:55:59 this comment in draw-pattern scares me: "Note: I believe the sample implementation in the spec is incorrect." 08:56:01 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:56:03 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:56:08 lovely. time for bed. night folks. 08:56:54 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 08:57:00 slyrus_: fixed in cvs. thanks for the entertainment. 09:00:43 -!- ciocia [n=user@c-71-201-84-72.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:03:11 slyrus_, heh 09:03:39 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:04:13 schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-96342e35eaefaac9] has joined #lisp 09:08:12 good morning 09:08:17 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 09:09:22 *wow* just wow. javascript has come a looong way :-D just made an mp3 player with drag and drop. 09:09:57 i have audio player, chat form and tiny blog roll and everything is draggable around the browser window 09:10:15 for the 23% of the people who don't run IE6 at least :-/ 09:14:15 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@32.175.64.239] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:14:53 S11001001: you're on your own amig. i revamped my app to a few handful static pages, served by apache, and i decided to handle the ajax callbacks with a proxied hunchentoot. 09:15:06 S11001001: s/amig/amigo/ 09:16:07 i don't know who else is using weblocks here; it's good for rappid development, but i have already gone past rappidness, so i might as well use the tried, tested and true. 09:16:18 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has joined #lisp 09:17:30 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:19:49 Can you compare it to ucw? Or point me to a webpage with a comparison? 09:19:49 Can you compare it to ucw? Or point me to a webpage with a comparison? 09:20:13 haven't used ucw 09:20:26 weblocks is futuristic and good 09:20:41 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:20:48 in that weird "it makes my life easier so i love it" for of a way 09:21:15 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 09:21:30 at the risk of offending peers and alienating friends; i did CakePHP. Weblocks is like cakephp, and i say that as a compliment. 09:22:31 Well, the weblocks home page surely describes a lot of features that on the buzzword level also apply to ucw. 09:22:54 but where cakephp expects a network-database, asking you for hostname and credentials, weblocks works with a meriad of lisp object stores and memory caches, which makes it a BIT to configure 09:23:52 i tried to use weblocks with elephant, but every link in the chain broke: weblocks, elephant, clsql, and berkely db. 09:23:58 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:24:35 cutting that crap into one solid piece of hunchentoot + rucksack was the right thing to do. 09:26:27 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:27:08 Well, ucw is totally agnostic to any database. I see from the weblocks quickguide that it requires something like a store. 09:27:08 Well, ucw is totally agnostic to any database. I see from the weblocks quickguide that it requires something like a store. 09:27:24 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:27:45 fusss: Have you ever had problems with multiple Hunchentoot threads accessing Rucksack? 09:28:10 That's the zope way of life and it's frowned a lot upon in the Python community. 09:28:10 That's the zope way of life and it's frowned a lot upon in the Python community. 09:28:19 vtl [n=user@r10ni46.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 09:28:20 schaueho: not sure what you mean - weblocks requires a store if you want to store something but by default you can just use prevalence and serialize to flat file 09:28:26 schaueho: how comes all your message are duplicated? 09:28:56 aerique: haven't bench marked the bloody thing that well. but the usual caveats apply. 09:28:56 -!- vtl [n=user@r10ni46.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:29:13 matimago, perhaps because I use a web interface. 09:29:18 schaueho: your typing echoes 09:29:35 vtl [n=user@r10ni46.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 09:29:40 does the chat server run on multithreaded hunchentoot? :-P 09:30:31 back to work .. 09:30:31 I'm using mibbit. At least the web interface doesn't show any echoes, but I guess I should better be quiet then. 09:30:52 it is ok now 09:31:05 Yes. 09:31:11 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 09:31:20 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:54 *lnostdal* is thinking IE with a refreshed UI in it .. (IE has a tendency to add the same DOM event to the same DOM element sometimes on a page-refresh .. lol) 09:32:06 *shudder* 09:32:24 or dom event handler .. whatever .. engrish sucks 09:32:25 lnostdal: i envy your web knowledge 09:33:50 fusss, i hope IE dies :} 09:33:54 fusss: a somewhat noob question about weblocks (since it seems like maybe you know about it =) - can render-widget be used outside of a render-widget-body defmethod? 09:34:17 saikat: lnostdal wrote the big-ass text on weblocks 09:34:17 or does that even make sense? 09:34:27 oo what big-ass text? 09:34:31 i would be interested in reading that 09:34:35 i did? 09:34:40 haha 09:35:29 oh, not you, sorry 09:35:31 http://teddyb.org/rlp/tiki-index.php?page=Learning+About+Weblocks 09:35:48 oh haha 09:35:53 i am actually on that page right now 09:36:01 lnostdal, the guy whose web knowledge I REALLY envy 09:36:11 it's very helpful - does robin lurk here too? 09:36:17 saikat: yep 09:36:24 what's his handle? 09:36:33 or her? 09:36:49 oh nevermind 09:36:53 i see an rlpowell 09:37:31 i sense some reading comprehension (or writing) deficiencies at work here 09:38:17 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.219.188] has joined #lisp 09:38:22 do you now? 09:38:27 saikat: lnostdal is working on a web framework as well. SymbolicWeb, check it out. 09:38:42 Ah sure, thanks. 09:43:44 hmm. 09:43:50 really, everyone's working on a web framework 09:44:15 separate web frameworks for each user 09:44:50 there's symbolicweb, wui, weblocks, ucw, kpax and i've got one too 09:49:47 Zhivago [n=zhivago@li49-59.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 09:49:55 it's a good thing too imho .. c.l.l. has a couple of people who seem rather negative when it comes to "web stuff" .. but i think it's good -- it's important .. if not lisp, then something else 09:49:58 Nocebojin [n=shaun@CPE-124-186-227-195.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:51:27 reminds me of the donkey-cab union, they too laughed at the mechanical cart. 09:51:42 NIH syndrome is especially strong 'round these parts 09:52:01 yeah, but the I part is so easy here too :) 09:53:10 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:53:18 :-)) 09:53:59 appletizer [i=a@82.45.11.237] has joined #lisp 09:54:37 so i made a commitment to a switch to stumpwm. hope that bumps up mah cred 09:56:00 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBAD1C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:56:08 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:00:10 Is that short for 'credulance'? 10:04:22 binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.94.2.224] has joined #lisp 10:04:25 few more years and i'll go claiming i was OG 10:05:31 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-187-226.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 10:07:41 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 10:08:00 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:10:15 -!- binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.94.2.224] has quit [Client Quit] 10:14:48 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 10:17:40 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.219.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:19:12 -!- addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 10:19:32 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:20:15 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has left #lisp 10:20:25 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:18 http://paste.lisp.org/display/72389 10:22:39 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:23:18 it's not like any legitimate code could be broken by the change, could it? 10:23:33 weirdo: and safety settings? 10:23:55 safety/ 10:24:08 clhs optimize 10:24:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_optimi.htm 10:24:25 come again? 10:25:31 oh, it breaks code walkers 10:25:40 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:26:00 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:33 Tordek [n=tordek@host186.190-137-177.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 10:29:33 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:30:06 weirdo: ah, i thought you found a bug in sbcl 10:30:10 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:30:44 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:14 it will be not common lisp 10:31:16 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:32:08 well, there are no functional changes for portable code (: 10:32:49 so why do you need such changes? such code will be not portable 10:33:14 not all code must be portable 10:33:45 and others will be thinking "what the scheme are you doing here?" 10:35:00 :-) that's a valid point 10:36:27 sure you can do weird things on your own, but keep it secret 10:41:18 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-151-221.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:41:52 weirdo: you can define your reader macro for that 10:42:23 yes, that's a portable option 10:42:28 doesn't sound too bad 10:44:00 portable way to annoy fellow lispers 10:44:33 it's usually a bad style to use reader macros 10:44:50 annoy, you say? for that, nothing beats the greek-letter-lambda reader macro :-)) 10:45:00 but wait, i could combine both 10:45:47 and square parentheses 10:47:30 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:49 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A1AE4.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:49:37 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:50:58 starting a swank manually through swank:start-server breaks unicode operation. what's going on? 10:51:08 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:51:26 elderK [n=elderK@203-167-171-100.dialup.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 10:51:38 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 10:51:47 weirdo: :coding-system "utf-8-unix" 10:51:48 ? 10:51:52 yes 10:51:53 kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0b6b7bfc9440f159] has joined #lisp 10:51:59 -!- elderK [n=elderK@203-167-171-100.dialup.clear.net.nz] has left #lisp 10:52:00 LC_CTYPE is set properly 10:52:04 hello lispers 10:52:19 fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:21 weirdo: did you supply that parameter to swank:start-server? 10:52:32 thanks! 10:53:07 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-101-69.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:53:18 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:54:05 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 10:56:51 yesterday at the Xmass dinner I've finally understood why lisp is so little used, professors at university (at least in Italy) show only how lisp is great for calculating factorials and iterative recursions. No indications on other capabilities, no indication on which tool should be used (for ex. : emacs, slime, paredit...) Lisp is differento from one is used too, if nobody tell the sudent how to properly start, lisp is percei 10:57:34 fortunately, you were cut off in that fascinating brain dump of yours 10:58:14 (( x  y (+ x y) 1) 2) ==> 3 10:59:24 kiuma: do the show all the tools and another examples in other languages? 11:00:12 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:00:37 Yes, or maybe they address to, for example in java coding with notepad is pretty impossible 11:00:55 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 11:01:02 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 11:01:31 aren't java sources in text files? 11:01:43 sure thay are 11:01:57 kiuma: many of them simply don't know the possibilities of it. At least, that's the case in our univ (belgium) 11:02:05 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 11:02:40 madnificent: this is exacly what the problem is! 11:02:48 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:21 benny [n=benny@i577A125F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:03:37 lisp coding in notepad isn't necessarily a walk in the park either :) 11:04:42 jum59 [n=jens@p548D4B50.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:05:01 sam_ [n=Sami__@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 11:05:04 I abandoned univerity when I passed all math and phisic exams because I was very bored, when I attended it , we had X terminals, then after a while I decided to give univ. another try, I go to the lab and saw that the major part of the terminals where replaced with windows one. I gave up! 11:05:59 zxbhj [i=zxbhj@gateway/tor/x-a7df7c9e403c6ba4] has joined #lisp 11:06:02 -!- jum59 [n=jens@p548D4B50.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 11:06:18 -!- zxbhj [i=zxbhj@gateway/tor/x-a7df7c9e403c6ba4] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:06:40 kiuma: so, we'll become professors and teach lisp ;) 11:06:49 people complains about parens and unreadeability of lisp, this is mainly because they don't know how to indent and don't know tools like paredit. 11:06:59 kiuma: come to belgium! Our univ is really listening to us (but only for us) 11:07:13 all boxes are dual booted kubuntu/windows boxes 11:07:29 our boxes only have a native ubuntu (vmware for windows) 11:07:44 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:07:52 madnificent: I'm not graduated :). I'm a bad boy, I risk to kill someone if he isn't reactive :) 11:07:53 we even have two keyboards per comp (one azerty (a local format) and one qwerty) 11:08:23 so, if the issue was a lack of support, then we've got a solution :) 11:08:48 kiuma: I have always found that tactic to be very intruiging 11:08:58 madnificent: what can I do is to finish the manual of CLAW, that for be is really a big effort 11:09:35 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-187-226.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:09:49 s/can I/I can/ 11:10:20 CLAW? 11:10:32 Common Lisp Action Server 11:10:50 *madnificent* notes to google for it 11:11:01 wait a moment I upload the alpha/unfinished manual on my site 11:11:46 jum59 [n=jens@p548D4B50.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:02 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:15:10 madnificent: www.wingstech.com/claw/claw.pdf it's about (/ 1 4) of the manual (that I've to write) 11:16:12 kiuma: unavailable... I'll read it a bit later :) 11:16:18 sorry http://www.wingstech.com/clawdoc/ 11:16:20 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 11:16:49 'claw' was proxyfied to the demo that is now down 11:17:51 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:18:05 kiuma: I'm interested. I'll read it soon :) 11:18:17 great 11:18:31 kiuma: nice writing style! 11:18:36 atm it's only available via svn at common-lisp.net 11:18:42 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 11:19:02 kiuma: could it by any chance become pluggable (like external support for cl-perec etc) 11:19:28 H4ns: thanks for the compliment, but the merit is of dojo, that I've integrated very well (at least I hope so) 11:20:11 kiuma: allso, with respect to reusability, I once created minions. Minions was a littly (badly written) framework that used classes for about everything. But it was designed so you could take a complete building block (let's say a forum) and drop it anywhere in the page. 11:20:14 madnificent: what do you mean by become pluggable 11:21:07 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 11:21:25 kiuma: I should read it first. But what I meanth is that there would be support to change the components of the architecture. Since you provide a framework, that might be nice 11:21:34 madnificent: You can even create your pluggable component libraries like claw-html.dojo , if this is what you mean 11:22:09 register into the server your own services 11:22:38 I'll look into it 11:23:36 madnificent: you can change whatever you want ... http-connector, session-manager, logging-manager, ...... 11:23:38 missyjane [n=hey@unaffiliated/missyjane] has joined #lisp 11:23:40 hi 11:23:44 hi 11:23:55 i am a tad bit confused, is lisp a compiled or interpretated language? 11:24:17 it depends from the implementation 11:24:22 missyjane: most common lisp implementations are compiled, but some have interpreters, too 11:24:34 so it can do both? thats.. hard to imagine, thats like compilin php 11:24:54 missyjane: compilers can also interpret 11:24:55 any language can be both 11:24:59 ate 11:25:11 yep 11:25:15 hm.. 11:25:22 that i never knew 11:25:47 remember turing machine 11:26:28 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 11:30:59 vasa [n=vasa@mm-174-83-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 11:31:59 -!- NoorDextor [n=Game450@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:32:54 madnificent: ah, I didn't know cl-perec, I used cl-sql as orm in the demo 11:33:25 to store data of course 11:33:35 -!- missyjane [n=hey@unaffiliated/missyjane] has left #lisp 11:33:35 not to store components 11:34:12 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:35:53 free_tinker [n=willijar@eas-nw709pc01.aston.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:36:45 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi] has quit [] 11:37:54 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 11:39:47 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-109-137-43.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:40:16 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@127.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:43:51 sam_ [n=Sami__@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 11:44:39 -!- jollygood_______ [n=jolly@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:47:54 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:48:11 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a18-024.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:48:54 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483E2B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:53:17 missyjane [n=hey@unaffiliated/missyjane] has joined #lisp 11:58:57 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.208.245] has joined #lisp 12:00:39 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi] has quit [] 12:02:01 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:03:52 There is a sb-sys:vector-sap in sbcl, and I wish there's a sb-sys:vector-from-sap that returns a simple-array from a sap, so that I could use it as displaced simple-array. 12:06:20 sam_ [n=Sami__@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 12:08:14 does anyone have SBCL on PPC running at the moment? 12:08:18 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:08:42 can do 12:09:38 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 12:10:07 nikodemus pasted "does this still break on PPC?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72395 12:10:25 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:11:45 hm please correct me if im wrong but it seems like common lisp can do everything including fetching the newspaper in the morning for you 12:12:00 Xof: do you mean it can be done in SBCL? I don't know the memory layout of a simple-array, will that be a problem? 12:12:20 Schnouki [n=schnouki@Schnouki.rez-metz.supelec.fr] has joined #lisp 12:12:40 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 12:13:39 huangjs: nope, can't do that transparently. 12:13:44 mulligan [n=user@75-36.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 12:13:45 huangjs: not talking to you, sorry 12:13:48 huangjs: you can't build a vector out of a SAP that isn't a real vector SAP, since it would require writing the length of the vector and the appropriate header in the heap right before the address the SAP points to 12:13:49 ok 12:13:58 i see 12:14:05 aerique_ [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:14:29 -!- aerique_ [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 12:14:42 aerique_ [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:14:42 -!- aerique_ [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 12:17:06 nikodemus: "debugger invoked on a TYPE-ERROR: The value 57 is not of type (INTEGER -16 31)." 12:17:16 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:17:20 1.0.22 12:17:41 ta 12:19:18 plutonas [n=plutonas@147.52.193.103] has joined #lisp 12:19:40 *lichtblau* wonders whether he's too hawkish on clbuild-devel 12:20:24 -!- mulligan [n=user@75-36.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:22:05 Perhaps we need a big fat warning when people install projects from the wnpp-projects list, because users apparently aren't aware of the distinction between the project lists. 12:23:08 I'm just worried that people would then come complaining all the time that their little toy project is only on wnpp status. 12:23:11 There's lots of stuff that I'm never going to move to main status, but wouldn't want to argue about either. 12:24:04 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:24:16 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:32:37 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:34:17 Jether [n=jmc33@host86-167-221-155.range86-167.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 12:34:45 Hi, I have a recursive search function, how can I exit the recursion as soon as I find the first instance of the search term? 12:36:19 don't call the function recursively if you've found something 12:37:19 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 12:37:41 the function is searching a binary tree so it looks left and right, so when it finds the term in the leaf it will stop going, but the searches further up the tree will continue to search 12:37:52 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-152-237.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 12:38:23 Jether: you can use labels and return-from the enclosing function. 12:39:36 H4ns: so put the whole method into a block, or label, called foo and then "return-from foo" will stop all the recursions? 12:39:58 ths [n=ths@p549AF886.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:40:10 Jether: "method" is not the right terminology, but i think you got the idea 12:40:27 H4ns: thank you 12:40:53 -!- missyjane [n=hey@unaffiliated/missyjane] has left #lisp 12:43:35 peartizer [i=a@82-46-31-129.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:44:12 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi] has quit [] 12:44:41 -!- appletizer [i=a@82.45.11.237] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:45:21 -!- peartizer is now known as appletizer 12:45:39 eevar2 [n=jalla@127.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:45:50 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has left #lisp 12:47:30 -!- ths__ [n=ths@X404a.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:48:00 dlowe1 [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:05 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120121]"] 12:59:51 has ALisp seen much use? Russell gave a talk partially about it at AAAI 2008 but I haven't heard of it before 13:00:42 Russell as in Russell Bradford? 13:00:48 is that allegro common lisp? 13:01:02 or rather, its "ANSI Lisp" binary? (: 13:01:51 stuart russell and http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~bhaskara/alisp/ 13:04:39 hey 13:04:42 when pattern matching 13:04:51 there's some syntax like ?pred 13:04:58 that checks whether stuff matches an expression 13:05:31 should unification bindings be visible then? 13:05:46 addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has joined #lisp 13:05:53 i'm writing my own and it works! :-) 13:07:48 -!- netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@cpe-67-243-48-35.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:08:59 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:09:14 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@ip98-169-46-222.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 13:09:23 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:09:58 yCrazyEdd [n=CrazyEdd@114-198-18-24.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 13:10:08 weirdo2 [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 13:10:18 vtl` [n=user@r10ni46.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 13:10:20 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:10:43 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:10:43 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 13:11:25 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 13:11:29 reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has joined #lisp 13:11:34 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:20:15 Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:20:22 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:22:19 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f4f5b.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:31 -!- vtl [n=user@r10ni46.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:51 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:26:27 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:31:01 -!- schaueho [i=d5a445c1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-96342e35eaefaac9] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:31:25 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:35:13 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:38:25 sam_ [n=Sami__@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 13:39:03 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 13:40:03 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 13:40:10 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-152-237.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:40:41 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 13:41:11 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:42 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-78-195.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 13:42:42 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:59 hum 13:43:21 sam_ [n=Sami__@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 13:43:33 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 13:43:43 I need to distinguish between loading a fasl and loading a lisp file. What names would you use for the two kinds of dependencies? 13:43:52 So you can eval while you eval. 13:43:58 :fasl vs :lisp ? confusing. :fasl vs :slol ? 13:44:23 :load-compiled vs :load-source ? 13:44:25 :load and :load-source ? 13:44:47 :fasl :sauce 13:46:08 :load-fasl and :load-source 13:47:29 clisp uses .fas as extension. I'd prefer :load-compiled and :load-source 13:47:52 cmucl uses .x86f or something. 13:47:58 +1 for matimago 13:48:30 bollocks. thought adding pattern matches as macroexpansion inline in the code without any called functions would be good 13:48:39 but it's, like, 100 lines after macroexpand-all 13:49:07 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:49:57 Fare: is there any distinction between compile-time and run-time dependencies in XCVB ? 13:50:09 yes 13:50:41 how are they treated ? 13:50:57 the ones are loaded when you compile a file 13:51:06 the other ones are loaded when you load it 13:51:49 e.g. you want the macros before you compile 13:52:03 and you want the special vars initialized before you run 13:52:51 but you don't care for complex initialization protocols (only declaration) when you compile 13:52:54 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-219-154-220.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:58 and don't care for macros when you load 13:54:01 note that when converting from asdf, the asdf dependencies end up as both compile-time and load-time dependencies 13:54:18 yes, I noted that 13:54:29 with additional complexity that if you're using cfasls, only the cfasl is loaded at compile-time 13:54:57 do you have a mechanism for referring to not-yet-loaded symbols ? 13:54:58 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-174-83-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 13:55:02 also note that the xcvb git is already working if you specify a precompiled *lisp-image-pathname* 13:55:36 fe[nl]ix, xcvb doesn't handle namespaces (yet) -- use the usual (find-symbol "FOO" "BAR") 13:57:17 the use case I'm thinking of is that I'd like to have a library FOO as compile-time dep 13:57:31 should be possible 13:57:48 and during the compilation of certain files foo:*magic* should have a certain value 13:57:59 with XCVB, libraries are "just" a placeholder with plenty of individual file dependencies 13:58:16 but the package foo may not be present when the xcvb definition file is loaded 13:58:22 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@vallila-gw.hupnet.helsinki.fi] has quit [] 13:58:30 ave fe[nl]ix 13:58:35 ave kiuma 13:58:46 you can totally have a compile-dep on make-magic-t.lisp and a load-dep on make-magic-nil.lisp 13:59:06 or a compile-dep on foo and no load dep on foo 13:59:57 unlike what happens with asdf 14:00:36 beware though that no implicit state is kept between compilation of multiple files 14:00:40 madnificent: do you have take a look at the manual ? is it clear enought ? 14:01:01 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["later...."] 14:01:17 with asdf the only way to fix this is to add an (eval-when (...) (oos 'load-op :foo)) the the top of the .asd 14:01:20 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:04:10 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has joined #lisp 14:13:39 robyonrails [n=roby@host51-121-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 14:18:06 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:18:54 fe[nl]ix, ouch 14:19:00 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 14:19:43 borism__ [n=boris@195-50-211-67-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:21:18 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:21:56 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:22:12 Fare: see http://repo.or.cz/w/iolib.git?a=blob_plain;f=net.sockets.asd;hb=HEAD 14:22:52 without the eval-when I can't refer to the symbol cffi-grovel:grovel-file inside the defsystem form 14:23:33 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:44 borism___ [n=boris@195-50-206-223-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 14:25:30 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:16 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-197-14-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:26:38 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 14:30:06 -!- borism__ [n=boris@195-50-211-67-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:56 fe[nl]ix: in xcvb, you could conceivably put (load "defpackage.lisp") into the BUILD.lisp file 14:35:51 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:44:40 xjrn [n=jim@c-24-7-31-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:57 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:42 do we have in CL something similar to what is provided by bouchingcastle (pkcs)? (just curious) 14:47:55 maybe you could describe "bouchingcastle" and "pkcs" a bit if you want an answer 14:48:36 FareWell [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:58 *sykopomp* fails at googling what either of those are. 14:50:02 jsnell: PKCS#11, public-key cryptographic standards 14:50:38 I'm not sure if openssl has a pkcs11 module. mozilla's NSS certainly has one 14:50:43 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:50 -!- jum59 [n=jens@p548D4B50.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 14:52:28 Seems to me that christmas days will be interesting, Open Source Lisp wise 14:52:28 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:52:56 tcr: in what sense ? 14:54:26 fe[nl]ix: also pkcs#7 14:55:56 kiuma: do you need to work with RSA smartcards ? 14:57:18 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 14:58:11 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:00:13 -!- yCrazyEdd is now known as CrazyEddy 15:00:57 fe[nl]ix: the idea passed :) 15:01:14 I bought a smart card reader for few eu 15:02:42 mulligan [n=user@e178038183.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:02:50 Xlas [n=28@c-463e70d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:02:55 -!- Xlas [n=28@c-463e70d5.026-58-73746f25.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 15:05:15 mulligan` [n=user@e178038183.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:06:05 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-219-154-220.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 15:06:26 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:08:11 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:55 fe[nl]ix: in truth I wanted to work with the "Carta dei Servizi" for the SSN 15:09:36 ok 15:09:58 http://www.crs.lombardia.it/cm/home.jhtml;jsessionid=02306386F49E10384AFFC4F777ECE345 15:11:02 I'd like to know what the chip contains ... 15:11:50 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:45 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 15:20:32 almost there. Apparently, I introduced a regression from sbrody's code regarding autodetecting/collecting asdf dependencies. 15:20:42 -!- jlf`` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-250.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:21:30 morning 15:22:43 hello slyrus_ 15:24:19 'morning 15:24:43 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 15:26:39 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:50 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 15:28:02 baz in ('foo 'bar . 'baz) seems unfortunate :/ 15:28:07 requires special-casing 15:31:42 missyjane [n=hey@unaffiliated/missyjane] has joined #lisp 15:31:44 hi 15:32:01 weirdo2: what are you trying to do ? 15:32:09 can anyone please tell me how lisp really improves a programmer? i just got done with part of the making a simple db and im not sure what im missing 15:32:21 fe[nl]ix, use plain variables in a pattern-matcher and 'foo for literal symbols 15:32:27 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.254.209] has joined #lisp 15:33:29 missyjane: your sense of self worth and superiority to these poor saps who use other languages improves greatly and makes you a better person, at least in your own eyes 15:33:49 missyjane: also, it encourages function nesting and discourages temporary variables 15:34:26 it teaches you to view boilerplate with suspicion 15:34:42 i dont know what boilerplate is/are but i can definitely say lisp is a lot harder than any language ive learned 15:34:48 at least 2-3 times harder 15:35:03 what materials are you using? 15:35:04 this is ringing some bells 15:35:04 missyjane: What languages did you learn? 15:35:10 not gavino bells but related bells 15:35:25 enterprise ones? 15:35:35 c based languages 15:35:36 like php 15:35:57 antifuchs, if that was for me, "the sexy book" http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 15:36:26 all right, that one is pretty good. 15:36:29 c is rather intuitive, like say phpn, a variable would be '$stuff = "whatever"', its just hard to fathom how powerful lisp is when its difficult 15:36:34 missyjane: boilerplate code is any form of repetition in your programs. lisp teaches you to strip that out 15:36:35 Xof: did you see my gripe about the deprecated eval-when situations in clx/depdefs.lisp 15:36:42 missyjane: the similarities between C and PHP are pretty superficial 15:36:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boilerplate_(text) 15:36:59 missyjane: (setf stuff "whatever") seems fairly natural 15:37:04 meh im comin from a strong php/sql background, i have ahard time thinking in real c 15:37:08 missyjane: most of the assignments you'd do for first can be done with let or let*, which is pretty intuitive 15:37:19 dlowe1, is there a reference manual then? 15:37:24 antifuchs, that is indeed very odd, the relative hardness of Lisp, as it lacks much of the boiler plate found in other language. Perhaps it is simply user a stronger material to begin with? 15:37:31 man, I'm dlowe1 everywhere! *gripe* 15:37:46 clhs setf 15:37:46 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_setf.htm 15:37:55 slyrus_: no, I don't think I did 15:38:00 missyjane: there's your reference 15:38:14 and the other operators, aside from function, the other two functions do not exist in php 15:38:25 minion tell missyjane about that sexy book 15:38:32 missyjane, I recommend simply starting reading Practical Common Lisp. If you know how your way around programming in general, I think that'll suffice. 15:38:38 that *is* a pretty sexy book 15:38:45 Fade: did you see the part where she said she's already reading PCL? 15:38:53 lol? are you guys mocking me here? 15:38:57 "she" 15:38:58 sorry, short terminal. 15:39:05 that is what i'd call boilerplate chat. 15:39:09 Xof: for whom the bell trolls? :) 15:39:09 dont worry, call me a he if that makes you sleep better at night 15:39:25 im sorry, just having a hard time wrapping my head around this 15:39:35 it might be because im struggling to remember the syntaxes 15:39:38 missyjane, PCL should give you enough to start hacking, and then the HyperSpec is /the/ reference -- it's the official spec, after-all. 15:39:39 missyjane: that's fine. It takes a while to break out of the usual mindset, I think :) 15:39:43 lisp warped my brain too. But now I like it better that way 15:40:00 missyjane: syntax? there's very few of that in CL 15:40:10 considering how slow i am, i need to do one week per section :/ 15:40:12 missyjane, and by syntax you mean the vocabulary, right? there's basically just ()': that are used often. :) 15:40:22 like () or + first then the numbers for xample, 15:40:33 im used to $calc = 2 + 3; 15:40:47 missyjane: It helps to think of everything as a function call, and of functions as things that return values. 15:40:53 vocabulary is to lisp as function is to php, thats what im gettin so far 15:40:55 missyjane: As opposed to standard mathematical operations. 15:40:56 missyjane, how about function calls, then? sort(numbers) vs (sort numbers) 15:41:13 you have to just forget what you know about programming. If you keep your procedural background in your head, you'll just make things tyougher for yourself. 15:41:16 prefix notation is the biggest stylistic thing to overcome when going from an algol like language to lisp, imo. 15:41:34 yea but what im learning isnt object oriented either 15:41:46 which is why i said at least 2-3 times harder, cause i struggle with oo too 15:41:59 not as much as i do with lisp though, but man, its just these paradigms drives me nut 15:42:01 missyjane: probably not. Not a lot of introductions take you straight into CLOS, which is disappointing. 15:42:10 missyjane: I suggest keeping quiet, actually do some reading, and come back when you have actual questions. 15:42:13 OS? 15:42:22 missyjane: Common Lisp Object System. 15:42:24 oh 15:42:29 eh tcr go fuck yourself 15:42:33 -!- missyjane [n=hey@unaffiliated/missyjane] has left #lisp 15:42:41 well. 15:42:43 tcr: good job there. Want a cookie? 15:42:57 if he gets a cookie, I want a cookie 15:44:05 CPS is a PITA to debug 15:44:11 like, 'what the hell is this continuation?' 15:44:51 weirdo2: High debug levels, and using slime-presentations can help, I believe. 15:44:51 weirdo2: you could provide names to your continuation 15:45:08 weirdo2: You can then use Right Click -> Find Definition in the debugger, hopefully. 15:45:21 gah. ASDF seems to not return dependencies to me when they have already been compiled, or something 15:45:39 How do I query a system for all its dependencies? 15:45:49 should I dig into do-first ? 15:46:06 nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-181-77-121.cncdnh.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:08 Hello all. 15:46:21 hey nyef 15:46:25 hi 15:46:39 is power on yet? 15:46:45 No, I'm at the local library. 15:47:11 Which will apparently be remaining open until 4pm, or the snow starts falling, whichever comes first. 15:47:11 tcr, except it recurses a lot and has lotsa' labels 15:47:14 can't even TRACE 15:47:50 There we go, http://www.lisphacker.com/projects/lh-usb/ uploaded. 15:47:55 oh, no: the bug is that ADG doesn't propagate the dependencies automagically for me. 15:48:29 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go home"] 15:48:45 -!- Nocebojin [n=shaun@CPE-124-186-227-195.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:48:59 FareWell: perhaps http://paste.lisp.org/display/66610 can be of help 15:50:08 specbot: draw-pattern 15:50:19 well, that didn't work 15:50:33 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@127.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:50:36 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:51:12 clim draw-pattern 15:51:13 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for draw-pattern. 15:51:23 That almost worked? 15:51:47 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit ["Beta. Software undergoes beta testing shortly before it's released. Beta is Latin for "still doesn't work.""] 15:52:17 -!- free_tinker [n=willijar@eas-nw709pc01.aston.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:52:28 clim draw-pattern* 15:52:29 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/14-5.html#_749 15:52:42 Of course. 15:53:11 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:53:44 fe[nl]ix, excellent! 15:54:11 thanks guys 15:54:55 if only there was a bot that could read the spec and fix mcclim to match it :) 15:56:18 strange, why there isn't draw-pattern 15:58:21 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:59:40 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-24-7-31-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:01:15 slyrus, if only there were a meta-bot that could read your comment and write a bot to solve your problem 16:01:16 fusss: a bug report that is something we could fix would be helpful 16:01:26 demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig112.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:02:18 hi mcclim gurus: does mcclim not support double-clicking a mouse button as gestures? 16:02:33 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:03:18 booya. fixed it. 16:04:00 recursive pattern-matcher building the expression using explicit cps-style 16:04:19 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host51-121-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:04:25 not only the pain of lack of macro debuggability, but also the pain of lack of cps-debuggability 16:04:45 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 16:05:06 -!- dlowe1 is now known as dlowe 16:05:22 fusss: Of note, one of the Elephant maintainers contributed and maintains the Elephant store. 16:06:20 (42 . 'bar) simply works by disallowing QUOTE variable name 16:08:27 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:08:33 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:35 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:12:21 robyonrails [n=roby@host51-121-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:12:42 any clim users around? 16:13:25 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:14:40 demmeln: I've been learning clim the past week or so 16:15:04 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:15:44 slyrus_: ah ok :-) . so you probably dont know about double clicking gestures 16:16:19 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 16:16:36 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 16:16:54 demmeln: you asking because it doesn't work for you? 16:18:07 qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 16:18:59 *FareWell* gets bitten by rookie error of omitting to backquote what a macro returns. Sigh. 16:19:07 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:19:20 stassats: it seems not to be implemented in mcclim 16:19:39 binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.214.108] has joined #lisp 16:20:37 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:20:38 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 16:21:34 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has joined #lisp 16:23:29 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-78-195.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:27:50 What's the magic for disassembling the entire code component for a function in SBCL? 16:29:09 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:41 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@h15a2.n2.ips.mtn.co.ug] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:29:47 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:30:07 Ah, (sb-disassem:disassemble-code-component (sb-disassem::fun-code #'whatever)). 16:30:41 just #'whatever should be good enough 16:30:57 doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 16:31:03 Usually gives the no-arg-parsing entry. 16:31:26 And even if it's been fixed since, I'm running 1.0.11. 16:31:32 when given to disassemble-code-component? 16:31:44 Ah, no, didn't try that. 16:31:48 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.208.245] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:32:01 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:26 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 16:34:59 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:35:59 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 16:38:26 stassats: so what do you know about double clicking gestures? 16:38:56 Bleh. Just spent far too long trying to figure out what was up with some bit of code in an array access, only to realize that it was checking for a thread-local binding of the symbol holding the array. 16:40:56 <_3b> ahaas: you ever get variable length s32 stuff working? 16:40:58 -!- kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0b6b7bfc9440f159] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:41:16 -!- binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.214.108] has quit [Client Quit] 16:42:50 demmeln: i wanted to suggest you a method to find whether it is supported by trying to use it 16:43:36 And I think this is about as tight as I can get it without trying to convince the compiler to elide the stack frame management... 16:44:30 stassats: ah ok. In the clim user guid 2 by franz it lists :double as a possible modifier for pointer-button gestures 16:45:03 xjrn [n=jim@c-24-7-31-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:05 stassats: but i din't find double in the source code (and it actually says :double is not a modifier upon compiling) 16:45:19 i don't see it in clim spec either 16:45:23 stassats: i was woundering if there was a workaround or different way to get double clicks.. 16:45:36 stassats: so its franz clim specific? 16:45:40 clim pointer-double-click-event 16:45:40 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/8-2.html#_357 16:47:37 it works!!! 16:49:57 stassats: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/22-3.html#_1101 <-- i dont see a way to get double clicks in gestures 16:52:36 FareWell: recursively checking ASDF deps ? 16:52:56 leotr [i=kvirc@95.58.29.65] has joined #lisp 16:53:20 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-158.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:54:43 -!- doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:55:00 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:55:08 CalJohn [n=pg99@87-194-236-208.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:55:23 -!- CalJohn [n=pg99@87-194-236-208.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 16:55:27 *weirdo2* again with macroexpansion 16:55:33 the expansion is humongous 16:55:59 i've planned to keep bulk of the code in standalone functions 16:56:43 but the most of the functions are of the form (when ... call-the-recursive-macro-again) 16:57:55 *FareWell* pushed xcvb.git! Yippee 16:57:55 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:58:10 fe[nl]ix, I don't need recurse for this application: asdf will do it for me. 16:58:19 FareWell: Congratulations! 16:58:23 weirdo2, try macroexpand-1 16:58:40 i macroexpand-all'ed it already 16:58:44 nyef, sbrody deserves most of the congratulations for his heavy-lifting. 16:58:44 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:47 FareWell: does this mean that if there is a circular dependency, xcvb will crash because asdf crashes? 16:58:49 want to see it? it's ugly 16:59:01 H4ns, if the circular dependency is in ASDF packages, yes 16:59:32 ok, so the current release is codenamed "XCVB 0.11, first public release" 16:59:38 FareWell: well, might be a good idea to implement circularity checking in asdf, then. 16:59:40 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:59:46 -!- Eno_ [n=anon@67.76.215.49] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:59:50 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 16:59:52 it's not meant to be a finished product -- just a working prototype that people can use 17:00:05 Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:05 (hint: backup your files before xcvb modifies them) 17:00:06 FareWell: where is it? at c-l.net? 17:00:08 yup 17:00:41 http://paste.lisp.org/display/72401 - any idea how to factor out something to keep it shorter? 17:01:16 stassats: mcclim doesn't seem to implement pointer-double-click-event either, as i only find the symbol in the export list of the package, but nowhere in the code 17:02:15 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:02:20 -!- weirdo2 is now known as weirdo 17:03:04 hunchentoot web server works for only one package? 17:03:53 demmeln: well, but does it work? 17:04:11 hjpark: what do you mean by "package"? 17:04:20 demmeln: there is a possibility that name is somehow constructed 17:04:50 i mean (in-package) 17:05:25 hjpark: i don't understand your question 17:05:55 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 17:06:01 i want to run cl-wiki with another pages 17:07:53 -!- moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:25 hjpark, you know about package prefixing, use-package, defpackage :use, etc.? 17:09:36 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:10:18 a little bit. 17:11:18 stassats: i haven"t tried it directy 17:11:55 stassats: i never dealt with events directly so far so i can't just crank out a testcase ;) 17:13:12 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:13:57 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 17:14:41 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 17:15:06 isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:55 stassats: its not defined as an event class in events.lisp 17:16:00 bah 17:16:15 maybe a case for the mailinglist... 17:16:30 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-101-69.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:10 can someone put docstrings in for the gfs in mcclim/decls.lisp? k thx bye. 17:17:59 there's this thing, slyrus_, called "Free Software", which enables everyone to do the work that they feel needs doing 17:18:05 you should look into it sometime 17:18:10 heh 17:18:42 -!- leotr [i=kvirc@95.58.29.65] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:18:46 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:19:11 Okay, time for me to go again. I'll be back when I can. 17:19:13 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-181-77-121.cncdnh.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Bye all."] 17:19:18 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-24-7-31-66.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [XULRunner 1.8.0.9/2006120508]"] 17:19:20 or at least everyone gets to talk about doing the work they feel needs doing, and then not do it if they're a lazy bastard like me 17:19:37 Xof: OTOH, I'm not even sure I want the docstrings in there as it would make it more difficult to scan the file to see what gfs are actually there. 17:19:52 (in case it wasn't obvious, the request was (mostly) a joke) 17:21:22 -!- davazp [n=user@100.Red-79-157-95.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:21:43 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:22:04 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["\o"] 17:22:06 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:22:22 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 17:24:17 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:30 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 17:26:43 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:27:19 -!- hjpark [n=user@221.138.197.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:27:54 slyrus_: Are you really suggesting putting in the docstrings would be a Bad Thing? 17:28:32 Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-415481.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:29:11 rpg: well, the file is sort of nice as a compact list of the gfs in the spec. if you have the doc strings, you lose that. 17:29:26 of course you could setf documentation elsewhere, which would probably be the best... 17:29:50 slyrus_: Yes. I'm a fan of environment-accessible documentation. 17:29:55 *slyrus_* needs to figure out how to make gadgets control my whizzy gui 17:31:43 *rpg* needs to figure out how best to represent IPv4 IP addresses in a 32-bit lisp, without making a 64-bit version suck 17:33:16 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:33:40 rpg: what do you mean by "making a 64-bit version suck" ? 17:34:20 I guess she needs to make the data structure extensible, so that if in future decides to hold 64bit version, the code won't become ugly 17:34:23 wow. 17:34:28 sbcl is great at constant folding 17:34:30 fe[nl]ix: Well, a 64-bit lisp can easily treat these addresses as integers, instead of needed to fuss about with vectors of tbytes. 17:34:38 s/tbytes/bytes/ 17:34:42 it just requires a slight nudge 17:34:57 But in a 32-bit lisp, treating these as integers results in creating lots of bignums. 17:35:11 from 150 to 70 lines of assembly for a macro 17:35:49 just avoid setq's and it'll do wonders 17:37:02 rpg: I think an array of (unsigned-byte 8) is fine 17:37:20 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:48 or a zero-dimensioned ub-32 array :) 17:38:50 bit-vector! 17:39:23 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:27 rpg: not that I'm recommending it, but what's wrong with bignums that isn't also wrong wit any array? 17:39:57 kpreid: arithmetic on the typed array should be much fater 17:39:59 faster 17:40:28 why use the same representation anyway? and does it actually matter? 17:40:28 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.12.26] has joined #lisp 17:40:30 for, oh, computing the median IP address of a million hits to the web site :) 17:40:35 dlowe: Yes, but on a 64-bit lisp, that's going to be more difficult than using an integer. Trying to decide whether I shouldn't just say "this is not going to work that well on a 32-bit lisp." 17:40:54 For delivery to the end user that's fine. It's only other developers that will suffer ;-) 17:41:00 sounds like premature optimization to me 17:41:07 rpg: are you sure that your application will spend a lot of time doing arithmetic (or anything) on ip addresses? 17:41:20 -!- isismelting [n=jo@ip72-197-229-240.sd.sd.cox.net] has left #lisp 17:41:26 rpg: not much more difficult, and it decodes into a string nicely 17:41:56 rpg: why do you care if they're bignums? 17:42:04 slyrus: Oh, no. It's not at all premature. We have profiled this, and we're generating a very large number of bignums. This is an app that runs for a very long time, collecting lots of statistics about traffic. 17:42:12 salex: Over time, we start to choke on this. 17:42:26 rpg: ah. understood. 17:42:29 dlowe: I don't think that the vector will hash as well as an integer, will it? 17:43:03 The more I think about this, the more the "this will not work that well on a 32-bit lisp" seems to be the happy choice. 17:43:34 I just have colleagues who work on this with a 32-bit ACL, because 64-bit ACL is so expensive. On 64-bit ACL or SBCL, it's copacetic. 17:43:50 64-bit is more expensive than 32? 17:43:54 Why is 64bit ACL more expensive? 17:43:56 franz charges by the bit? 17:44:01 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host51-121-dynamic.51-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 17:44:33 *FareWell* makes commits a further documentation update 17:45:08 FareWell, XCVB I presume? 17:45:25 yup 17:45:47 http://common-lisp.net/project/xcvb/ 17:45:57 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 17:46:03 Yeah. Just looking. I'm surprised I remembered the name correctly this time. 17:46:23 Which document do I want to look at? 17:46:58 Nevermind. I'll just clone the repos. 17:47:03 tcr, slyrus I don't know why it's more expensive. I think it's because they haven't adjusted their pricing since the old days when 64-bit machines were just specialty machines for servers and high-end crunching. 17:47:23 LispWorks seems to have the same bad pricing scheme --- both allow only "Enterprise" licenses for 64-bit. 17:47:27 They need to get over this. 17:47:49 Nobody's told you about the SBCL Enterprise Licensing program yet? 17:48:14 The AMD64 version costs 2x what the x86 version does, to account for the extra cost of the cons cells. 17:48:16 chandler: I thought it was also twice as expensive ;-) 17:48:36 Heh. Joke convergence. 17:48:38 FareWell, how come you're not using the contents directive in README.rest? 17:48:55 chandler: We store bad mortgage debt in the extra bits... 17:49:25 It's a TARP! 17:49:37 -!- sbok [n=kobs@unaffiliated/kobs] has left #lisp 17:49:39 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:50:45 rpg: bad idea, there's just too much of it around, the bad CDOs alone will choke even heroic garbage collection attempts 17:50:49 then where are you? 17:51:42 salex: After garbage collection, we replace the bad debt in the high-order bits with money taken from taxpayers, and retire rich! 17:52:02 Beat THAT plan, Paul Graham! 17:55:55 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-158.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 17:56:16 tic: I'm not? 17:56:29 tic: I am! 17:57:44 -!- FareWell [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:58:49 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-158.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:02:30 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 18:05:21 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 18:05:39 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 18:05:52 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.214.108] has joined #lisp 18:06:10 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:11:40 please remind me to read "how to install" type blog posts to the end before I start, including replies. 18:12:03 3 hours of struggling with crap just to find 90 replies of people with "similar" problem 18:12:36 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-158.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 18:15:27 is it possible that my code runs 0.077 real time for 10^6 repeats? 18:15:57 or did i mess up with quick-and-dirty benchmarking? 18:16:23 weirdo: depends on the complexity of the code 18:17:29 in my days computers couldn't do pretty much anything 10^6 times a second, even busy-loop 18:18:09 looks like i'll be able to challenge toady for a benchmark 18:20:58 quamaretto [n=millij@70.228.181.114] has joined #lisp 18:22:50 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:23:40 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:25:48 weirdo goes back even further than me. When I started in the '70s machines were at least that fast. 18:26:06 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:26:06 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:26:06 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:26:06 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:26:06 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:26:06 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a18-024.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:26:06 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@dhcp-077-248-142-146.chello.nl] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:26:06 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-050-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:26:06 -!- rread [n=rread@c-76-102-10-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:26:06 -!- yango_ [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:26:06 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@195.116.35.13] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:26:06 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:26:06 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:26:06 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:26:06 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@194.51.71.190] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:26:06 -!- albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 18:26:36 nah... i started with a 150 mhz cyrix 586 18:26:53 these were crap, MIPS didn't mean anything 18:26:57 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 18:26:57 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has joined #lisp 18:26:57 qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 18:26:57 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:26:57 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a18-024.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:26:57 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 18:26:57 koning_robot [n=aap@dhcp-077-248-142-146.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 18:26:57 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-050-093.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:57 rread [n=rread@c-76-102-10-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:57 yango_ [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 18:26:57 mathrick [n=mathrick@195.116.35.13] has joined #lisp 18:26:57 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 18:26:57 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:57 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 18:26:57 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 18:26:57 albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 18:27:23 -!- rread [n=rread@c-76-102-10-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:27:37 rread [n=rread@c-76-102-10-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:40 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8080 18:27:45 technically i started with atari 65 xe but it was more if a gaming console 18:28:13 but contemporary mainframes were considerably faster 18:28:19 Commodore PETs for me 18:28:25 dwave_ [n=ask@062016209191.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 18:29:55 i believe the first machine I actually programmed was a CDC 3300 18:31:04 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CDC_3000 18:32:58 *sykopomp* remembers having a Gateway 2000 at home when he was little. 18:34:29 haqe43 [n=lucius@host86-139-102-44.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:47 -!- haqe43 [n=lucius@host86-139-102-44.range86-139.btcentralplus.com] has left #lisp 18:34:55 as i was getting used to not being the youngest person on irc :-) 18:35:01 old-timers :-) 18:35:55 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.142.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:36:12 youngest? there are plenty of 14 year olds on irc 18:36:16 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 18:36:20 hmm... how do I make mcclim take a string as an argument to a command that doesn't get terminated by space? (but rather by RET) 18:36:21 hrm, I have a function that either moves times forward or backward depending on an argument given to the function. Rather then have this if call in the loop as it is now, I'd like to define the operator ahead of time so no check is needed. Could I use macrolet for this maybe? 18:36:30 JuanDaugherty: I'm 21 :( 18:36:48 congrats 18:36:51 *rsynnott* started with a BBC micro 18:37:13 like: (if wants-add (macrolet ((action (&rest args) ..))) (macrolet ((action (&rest args) ...)))) 18:37:14 JuanDaugherty: so bitter. 18:37:24 howso? 18:37:40 but looks like this wont work because this just defines the macro in the body. Same problem with flet and labels. :( 18:38:16 I could just assign it a function, but then I have to use funcall. 18:38:32 *slyrus_* waits for beach to write Ch. 6 of the mcclim user's guide and API reference 18:41:15 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has left #lisp 18:43:50 -!- addled [n=addled@mail.andrewlawson.org] has left #lisp 18:44:34 matsmats [n=matt@adsl-75-21-72-66.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:48:04 jbjohns: i don't undestand your problem. can you paste some examples? 18:48:25 ok, how to paste? 18:48:31 lisppaste: url? 18:48:32 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 18:48:59 jbjohns pasted "Example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72405 18:49:03 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:49:03 paste what you have now, and what you want to achive 18:49:59 in that case I was thinking there was something else I could do instead of assigning a function to a variable and using funcall later. I thought I saw something in the gigamonkeys book 18:51:34 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1176023246.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:52:25 jbjohns: why not use signed milliseconds and than just adding? (without (add t)) 18:53:01 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.214.108] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 18:53:35 and i'd rather do function fix-up working on already parsed subtitles, not on files 18:54:03 well, fix-up is the only exported function. It's in early stages 18:54:05 :) 18:56:41 nikodemus: teh aw3s0m3!!! 18:57:07 in all seriousness, that bug database interface looks very nice. 18:59:40 slyrus_: url? 19:00:19 stassats annotated #72405 with "something like this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72405#1 19:00:20 m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.2.21] has joined #lisp 19:00:42 jbjohns: perphaps i'd make it so 19:00:53 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:01:05 (and i forgot incrementi start) 19:01:11 incrementing 19:01:37 + for n from start 19:03:27 `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.2.21] has joined #lisp 19:03:57 stassats: ok, thanks for the insight. The reason I put start to 1 and do the 1- at the start is because start coresponds exactly to the subtitle number in the srt file. That is if you don't specify then it starts with 1, if you specify 10 then the first modification in the file with be with the subtitle under the 10 entry 19:05:50 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1176023246.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 19:06:47 What would you name the top level function? I need a function that takes a file, a modification and possibly a starting point (since subtitles drift), parses the subtitles from the file, modifies them and writes it back out. I agree that fixup is doing too much, but I just started sculpting on this clay you know? :) 19:07:17 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 19:08:27 `adjust-time-in-file', which will open file, parse it, call fix-up, and write-back 19:09:10 dlowe: https://bugs.launchpad.net/sbcl # not official yet 19:09:38 slyrus_: still 50 old bugs to verify... 19:09:44 -!- Bewilder [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has left #lisp 19:10:15 fair enough 19:11:23 peartizer [i=a@82-32-122-46.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:11:45 and maybe make it in terms of some with-modify-subtitle macro, or do-subtitles function 19:12:00 my 0 votes are for using launchpad 19:12:26 So far, is clbuild the most convenient way to have the latest version of stuff? 19:12:54 nikodemus: ah, launchpad. that will be very useful 19:13:15 ebzzry: It doesn't always have the latest stuff. 19:13:42 ahaas: Why, assuming that the configuration files point to the correct repositories? 19:13:53 ebzzry: Your assumption is incorrect. 19:14:44 ahaas: Let's say, they point to the correct repo. Or are you saying it can never point to the correct repo? 19:14:48 ebzzry: Some packages are mirrored and may not be current. 19:15:52 ahaas: So in that case, then configuration files must be changed and must point to the repos used by the developers 19:16:42 ebzzry: If the developers had public repos, they'd probably point to that in the first place, but I don't know how that is all decided. 19:17:15 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:15 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:17:21 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:26 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 19:17:31 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:17:37 ebzzry: I know, for instance, that there is a newer version of Chipz on the homepage for that package, than available through clbuild. 19:18:06 ahaas: Do you know the average time difference between updates pointed in the projects file and the one that is truly latest? Does it go > 1 wk? 19:18:23 -!- appletizer [i=a@82-46-31-129.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:18:30 -!- m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.2.21] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:34 -!- peartizer is now known as appletizer 19:18:39 ebzzry: I think it's different per package. I'm sure many of the links are to current public repos, but lichtblau is the person to ask. 19:19:15 ahaas: OK. 19:20:03 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:21:14 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:22:03 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:54 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:23:08 -!- `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.2.21] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:23:59 ebzzry: I ran into this yesterday with Chipz, but it's very easy to download a single package and use it instead of the clbuild version. 19:24:02 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:24:33 ahaas: OK, but then it will not be part of the clbuild installation, right? 19:24:40 sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 19:24:44 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:24:44 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 19:25:01 ebzzry: No, and I'm not sure if there's a better way to include it or if it even matters. 19:25:32 I don't know if clbuild can detect satisfied dependencies outside what it installed iteself. 19:25:40 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:26:48 Afaik, the dependency file contain the dependencies. 19:27:24 Yeah, but how does it check if they are satisfied? 19:27:46 Does it just automatically try to update them all? 19:27:52 ahaas: Isn't it hard-wired in that file? 19:28:15 ahaas: Istm, that if you add a project, make sure you update the file, and have a correct dependency entry in there. 19:29:13 ebzzry: I don't know and I shouldn't speculate. 19:29:22 ahaas: You should check then. 19:30:24 ahaas: So if you have say a growing list of non-trivial projects and they are not managed by clbuild, it becomes a pita. It may lead to a clbuild clone. 19:31:30 *sykopomp* would rather have http://www.mudballs.com become popular than keep going with clbuild 19:32:04 I hope it would materialize soon. 19:32:53 I've already started porting my .asds to .mbd :) 19:33:14 clbuild is good, but then, sooner or later, we need to pull things that is not managed. 19:33:26 sykopomp: Hmm 19:34:00 ebzzry: I don't have a problem mixing clbuild w/ other packages. I don't understand your issue. 19:34:00 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 19:34:09 ebzzry: mudballs can support version-control fetching. There's talk on the mailing list, at least, on how to go about it. Someone already has a patch that lets it pull from git repos. 19:34:32 sykopomp: hold on, port them to xvcb 19:34:39 xcvb 19:34:58 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 19:35:22 ahaas: If you have a new piece of software, with lots of dependencies, and it is not managed by clbuild, and you want clbuild to manage it, what do you do? 19:35:37 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:35:46 is there a way to find out how the pretty printer for sexpressions works? 19:35:46 josemanuel [n=josemanu@244.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:36:13 i'd like to redefine it but keep most of the formatting functionalitiy... 19:37:04 you may want to read Waters's texts about the pretty printer 19:37:15 stassats: I have not heard much about xcvb 19:37:40 sykopomp: For one, it will be presented this coming ILC09 19:37:46 sykopomp: today was the first public releaseb 19:38:01 oh, that's interesting 19:38:01 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-40a4b077c9175b83] has joined #lisp 19:38:08 by the way, how can you attend the ILC? 19:38:21 the webpage for the conference was oddly uninformative about this... 19:38:42 ebzzry: I have not had that problem. I'm fine with using clbuild to load some packages and installing others separately. They get along fine. 19:39:26 sykopomp: The webpage, as in at http://www.international-lisp-conference.org/2009/index? 19:39:44 *sykopomp* finds it very awkward to have a bunch of stuff still installed from asdf-install, + clbuild, + mudballs, + manual installs 19:39:52 ahaas: No, I was thinking about making clbuild manage it so that you don't have to manage it separately. 19:40:03 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 19:40:20 ebzzry: Yes, but I don't see the part where they tell you how you can show up :( 19:40:58 sykopomp: What do you mean by that? 19:40:58 sykopomp: mudballs as package manager may be interesting, but as a defsystem is has little or no advantage over ASDF 19:41:15 ebzzry: it's a conference, right? So people go and attend it?... 19:41:25 *sykopomp* feels he may have missed the point. 19:41:33 -!- Schnouki [n=schnouki@Schnouki.rez-metz.supelec.fr] has quit ["Paix, prospérité et chaussettes propres"] 19:41:41 sykopomp: Uh, yes. 19:41:53 ebzzry: -how- 19:42:39 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:42:44 adeht: a specific one or whatever google spits out on Walter + pretty printer? 19:43:08 sykopomp: I don't know exactly and I'm too far to even attend it. 19:43:36 ebzzry: I'm about 2 hours from cambridge, so I'd love to go, but thank you anyway :P 19:43:45 fusss: ping pong 19:44:02 sykopomp: Np. I'm at the opposite side of the planet from the meeting place. :-( 19:44:05 S11001001: hey 19:44:25 S11001001: sorry, i'm in zombie mode 19:44:35 ebzzry: ouch :( 19:44:44 going live with a site in 3 hours, we talk later 19:44:45 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:46:40 I don't know about "Walter" - I wrote "Waters". there's the original XP source + docs, and I believe CLtL2 contains mostly the same docs.. and there is also a MERL paper with examples of use (using the pprinter for Pascal output iirc) 19:47:04 SimpleViewer is a good flash based gallery, if anybody is about to waste one. tonight I tested: SimpleViewer, flash photo stack, dfgallery, polaroid, carousel, cooliris, jquery galleria and jquery galleriffic. All but the first are _crap_ 19:47:21 was _time_ looking for one 19:48:44 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 19:49:22 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.243.101] has joined #lisp 19:52:04 sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 19:54:11 S11001001: will do a write up sometime next week, sorry abou that 19:54:44 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.5/2008120122]"] 19:56:59 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:57:06 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:57:58 segv [n=mb@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:58:21 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 19:58:46 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 20:03:26 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 20:05:03 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:05:16 -!- matsmats [n=matt@adsl-75-21-72-66.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:05:25 matsmats [n=matt@adsl-75-21-72-66.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:42 -!- matsmats [n=matt@adsl-75-21-72-66.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:07:24 ths__ [n=ths@p549AE146.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:43 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 20:08:43 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:11:13 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF886.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:11:22 -!- ths__ is now known as ths 20:11:46 adeht: sorry i misread and meant Waters. I'll have a look at the XP pretty printer paper and also the according chapter in CLTL2. Thanks for the hint 20:14:56 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable032.182-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:17:59 -!- wasabi_________1 [n=wasabi@ntoska163007.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:08 deximer [n=deximer@c-75-69-229-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:47 -!- bit` [n=bit@c-71-193-240-79.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:24:04 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:26:36 -!- Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-415481.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:27:10 *ponder* 20:27:38 "Common Lisp allows you to grow your own language. However, it makes it particularly hard for it to be the same language as anyone else's." 20:28:04 Why would an flet trigger the package lock? That is if I flet a definition of read-line that has the options I will use for the rest of the function why does SBCL pitch an error about the package lock? 20:29:41 In working with CLOS, what mechanism do people favor to serialize objects? My particular application pushes objects between nodes of a network, but occasionally written to a file. 20:29:42 because there is a symbol `read-line' in the Common Lisp package, which you use, and which is locked. the standard forbids binding this symbol to your own function 20:29:45 ebzzry, I sent a proposal for a demo at ILC'09, but it hasn't been accepted (yet, if it is -- answers in January). 20:30:13 jbjohns, the reason is that Common Lisp lacks macro hygiene. 20:30:41 common lisp lacks a lot of hygiene. It's the roach motel of Lisps. 20:30:46 If a macro wants to expand to a use of READ-LINE, but you have locally shadowed READ-LINE, that macro would lose. 20:30:55 but it's home. 20:31:04 -!- appletizer [i=a@82-32-122-46.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:31:10 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 20:31:10 Thus it was decided, rather than to solve the real problem, to forbid you from shadowing the function definition of READ-LINE. 20:31:32 that was a weird metaphor 20:31:49 (Fare's, I mean) 20:32:20 but it's just shadowed inside the flet definition, so I shouldn't have to shadow the symbol I would have thought 20:32:21 maybe it was pointing out CL's strenght in bug-killing ;) 20:33:04 Sorry, there are two different notions of `shadowing'. One is at the level of symbols, and the CL:SHADOW function; the other is at the level of bindings, i.e. associations between name and meaning, and concerns FLET, LET, LABELS, &c. 20:33:11 I was talking about the second meaning of `shadow'. 20:33:37 ah ok. So the first is allowed on CL symbols but not the second then? 20:33:47 benny99 [n=benny@p5486FF0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:33:50 Yes, pretty much. 20:34:06 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:33 You must go to the trouble of introducing your own symbol which you may locally (in your own package) refer to by the name READ-LINE if you wish to associate a function definition with it other than that specified in the standard. 20:35:21 I would just use a different symbol 20:36:26 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable032.182-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:36:33 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable032.182-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:36:56 In Scheme, by contrast, the expansions of macros contain not the names but the bindings of the names that were established in the environment where the macro was defined. So there would be no problem with (LET ((READ-LINE ...)) ...) in Scheme that would necessitate package locks. 20:36:59 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable032.182-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 20:37:16 what about this one "Common Lisp enables you to grow your own language; however it makes it difficult for that language to be the same as anyone else's." 20:38:57 Also, the bindings in the Common Lisp standard are given a special status, because there is no standard way to create package locks. So while the standard permits an implementation to use package locks, it leaves you (or anyone else using your code) to shoot yourself in the foot for any of your own bindings. 20:39:38 well, Scheme has no packages anyway 20:39:50 adeht, but now it has modules. 20:39:54 kind of 20:40:22 adeht, that's actually not relevant to the issue at hand, which is about local shadowing of bindings, with which Scheme has no problem. 20:41:03 *Fare* hopes that when XCVB is ready for primetime, it will be easy to add proper namespace management, hygiene, modules, etc., on top. 20:41:05 I could say that you speaking about macro hygiene is irrelevant, too 20:41:34 macro hygiene is not irrelevant. 20:41:48 yes, it may have been part of the rationale for the decision in the standard 20:41:49 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:42:11 but that isn't why SBCL issued a package lock error 20:42:29 common lisp has a bad first-order approximation of hygiene that completely breaks when you want to automate things and is not costly to maintain manually (packages). 20:43:17 meh, let's not have the hygiene argument again. there are reasonable reasons for both approaches, and #scheme is over there 20:43:38 for some values of "reasonable" 20:43:52 for any values of reasonable 20:43:54 salex: if it's civil, there might be a good engineering tradeoff even while respecting the CL spec! 20:44:00 being absolutists about this is inane 20:44:16 pkhuong: civil is good. 20:44:16 are you an absolute relativist? 20:44:36 i'm trying to avoid a repetition of a stupid argument 20:44:44 civil engineering is good. But that's not what computer science is about. 20:45:03 NoorDextor [n=Game450@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 20:45:36 pkhuong, I don't believe in playing games with standards. Just provide a compatibility layer, then move on. 20:45:48 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:45:53 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has quit [" topo: no, I don't have opengl. That's another problem with your code, it's monolithic. whats monolithic? ] 20:46:22 Fare: that too. 20:46:34 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:46:41 Fare: but that's also less likely to be useful. 20:46:47 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:47:25 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 20:47:31 what is more interesting is "how can we provide an API that allows one to work with both old-style CL no-hygiene+source-is-cons and new-style hygiene+source-locations) 20:47:59 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 20:48:12 and can we "standardize" said API so that most CL implementations adopt it. 20:49:20 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:49:22 i suspect it's an uphill battle to get general acceptance. You'd have to demonstrate pretty compelling advantage, at a minimum. 20:50:20 Fare: why not just fork one of the CL compilers and slowly change the language to something you like ? 20:50:31 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable032.182-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:50:48 fe[nl]ix, that could be one way to do things, too 20:51:04 but would require a much higher commitment to usefully keep libraries around 20:51:16 Whether or not you find it compelling, one advantage is that package locks become unnecessary, and without them, idioms such as the one jbjohns attempted cease to be illegitimately reported as errors. 20:51:22 or rewrite them completely at which point why have any compatibility/fork ? 20:51:26 oh, dear, religious issues :) 20:52:03 tried to head it off 20:52:25 (Please let me know if I appear to be making religious claims; I try to adhere to technical observations.) 20:52:54 Riastradh: you don't need to eliminate the package locks mechanism to write code in such a way 20:52:59 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 20:53:02 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable032.182-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:53:13 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable032.182-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:53:17 it's possible to make technical observations about religious issues. Possible, but not always a good idea :) 20:53:26 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-117-028.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:45 Why is this necessarily a religious issue? 20:54:24 Riastradh, because my God told me it was a religious issue! 20:54:33 Riastradh: "idioms such as the one jbjohns attempted cease to be illegitimately reported" i don't understand 20:55:03 oops, bad timing -- now i have to go 20:55:05 nikodemus, ah, you walked in a bit late: jbjohns wanted a local function named READ-LINE. 20:55:05 sorry 20:55:49 *UnwashedMeme* finds that adding a break point to SBCL's main shared-initialize doesn't work very well 20:55:54 i checked that in the logs, but i don't understand why implementing X would make it undesirable to enforce global rules about lexical names 20:56:06 nikodemus, he meant that it is possible to standardize a clean formal semantics for a language that removes any ambiguity or hidden side-effect from what he did (shadow a standard function). 20:56:16 Riastradh: the religous issue is hygiene, for reasons you can grovel c.l.l. if you care to find out 20:56:30 in grubby detail 20:56:40 right, but clearly we are not then talking about CL anymore -- not CL + hygiene 20:57:00 UnwashedMeme, it won't work if objects are created by the breakpoint handler 20:57:04 salex, no, I don't care to grovel c.l.l: I know that most discussions there are pretty unpleasant, and often substitute religious fervour for technical observations. I'd rather have a technical discussion. 20:57:10 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:57:29 anyway, all that is well known 20:57:33 fare: apparently some are :-) 20:57:37 Riastradh: my point was to try and avoid rehashing a tired old discussion, before it went in that direction 20:57:48 of course if a hygiene layer were to magically rename the FLET READ-LINE into something else, that would indeed eliminate the problem at that level 20:57:50 so we're not at odds, just different goals :) 20:57:50 if you have a constructive comment on how to improve things, you can contribute it. 20:58:12 nikodemus, exactly what a hygiene layer on top of CL would do, indeed. 20:58:40 Fare: it would still be a legitimate error 20:58:41 the problem with a hygiene layer on top of CL is: it loses source locations for debugging 20:58:49 Riastradh: fwiw, there have been many technical discussions about the tradeoffs aroudn hygenic macros too, no shortage of material 20:59:00 anyway, i'm off regardless 20:59:13 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable032.182-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 20:59:21 anyways, i'm off too 20:59:22 Here's the general problem that jbjohns gave an example of: Names cannot reliably be given local meanings, independently of their global meanings. 20:59:25 and the question is: how could we put source locations back into such transformed source, and have it work with say SBCL ? 20:59:28 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:00:03 Riastradh, if you restrict yourself to names outside builtin packages, they can. 21:01:19 Fare, not quite. The word `reliably' was deceptively subtle in my sentence. If you attempt to give a local meaning to a globally defined name, your may deleteriously affect macros. 21:02:21 So actually, the name didn't have a local meaning. It affected more than just the local scope: it affected macros defined in an entirely different scope. 21:02:22 Oh, you're just saying that macros lack hygiene. Yes, that's known. 21:03:16 we're repeating the same things over again. 21:03:19 Package locks work around this by restricting the set of names which one may even attempt to give local meanings, but package locks don't make local bindings reliable; they just reduce the probability of problems. 21:03:40 it was not about names, but symbols 21:03:44 just like packages in general -- they don't solve problems, only dilute probabilities. 21:04:01 adeht, when I said `name', you can read `symbol'. 21:04:40 Riastradh, are there semi-standards low-level models for source locations in the Scheme world? 21:04:44 No. 21:05:01 is PLT the state of the art with this respect? 21:05:33 (that's way ahead of my current work on XCVB, but something I might like to do in the future) 21:05:38 I don't know exactly what one might call the state of the art. 21:05:47 As far as I know, PLT deals only in line & column numbers. 21:06:19 Riastradh: doesn't the macro debugger have some more magic? 21:06:51 I believe the macro expander also tracks the expansion history these days (which, say, MIT Scheme has done for a long time). 21:07:03 Riastradh: it was not an example of the problem you described.. e.g., had he used a symbol in a non-standard package and this package wasn't locked, then he would get no error and things would likely work 21:07:04 in XCVB 2, i'd store file's URL & cryptohash + offset, or something. 21:07:06 And the macro debugger is a convenient front end for that information. 21:07:25 Fare: Doing away with sexps as lists would likely help. Python's front-end is also very well modularised, so it wouldn't be too much work. 21:07:32 (maybe line + column instead of offset, for more robustness vs lack of correct version) 21:07:51 adeht, not if he used a macro within his FLET that tried to refer to the name he bound. 21:08:00 Riastradh: but isn't the case 21:08:06 that 21:08:09 Why not? 21:08:13 ...oops, sorry. 21:08:16 I misread that line. 21:08:19 Riastradh: at least, he made no mention of it 21:08:19 pkhuong, by python, you mean cmucl/sbcl? 21:08:24 ...ah. 21:09:33 Riastradh, by "expansion history", you mean all the steps, or just the proximate source of the current token? 21:10:41 adeht, jbjohns described giving a local meaning to a name, irrespective of any global meaning that it had. It probably didn't cross his mind whether any macros he was using in that local scope might refer to the name, because that information (of what names a macro's expansion uses) is, or should be, an implementation detail of the macro, for the most part. Unfortunately, in Common Lisp, it is intrinsically not an implementation 21:10:54 Fare, I mean all the steps. 21:11:46 Fare: yes, I don't know anything about the python-the-language. 21:12:11 Riastradh, must make for copious amount of debugging info in object files (and/or lisp image) 21:12:19 Fare, I'm speaking only from a rough idea of what PLT's macro debugger is; I have never used it, or even seen it. MIT Scheme does remember all the steps in the expansion, although it does not preserve this information beyond the macro expansion stage. (Mostly it is useful for debugging errors during macro expansion.) 21:14:31 My portable macro expander records expansion history and uses it to update source location information in some back ends, such as Chicken's. 21:16:21 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:16:56 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:17:39 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-75.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Success] 21:18:00 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-38-35.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:19:55 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:20 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:20:37 -!- ^authentic is now known as authentic 21:23:34 Does SBCL+Slime on linux have a good stepper, because using native emacs+slime+SBCL on windows has a pretty crappy stepper. Honestly, the biggest barrier to entry for lisp for me so far is lousy steppers. Allegro has that command line thing (despite everything else having buttons or hot keys for it), and now this 21:24:39 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable032.182-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:24:58 now I have some sort of odd crash bug, but it's hopeless trying to step this code 21:25:09 jbjohns: I have never found stepping very useful. print/trace/break yes, but stepping? Anyway, I don't think there's much of a difference if you compile with (debug 3) and use recent SBCL/SLIME. 21:26:09 *dlowe* bets jbjohns writes really large functions. 21:26:31 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@114-198-18-24.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:26:32 yCrazyEdd [n=CrazyEdd@114-198-18-24.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 21:26:33 why use a stepper to work out how you're crashing... ah, yes, large functions 21:26:35 tracing is pretty useless unless you have small, tight functions 21:26:38 never found stepping useful? Perhaps that's because you've always had lousy steppers. :) If you have one like in Smalltalk it's really nice. You can step through execution of the code, evaluate things in the context of the current frame, etc. 21:27:22 -!- yCrazyEdd is now known as CrazyEddy 21:27:35 dlowe: The function I want to debug is pretty monstrous at 14 lines 21:28:19 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.12.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:31 It's just nicer to me to see how the code is executing, as it's executing, rather then read a giant backtrace after the fact 21:28:35 jbjohns: why do you need a stepper then? 21:29:04 I can understand that there are different styles of debugging, and I have used the smalltalk stepper, and the sbcl/slime stepper isn't noticeably different in functionality 21:29:16 Riastradh, how do you report such info in Chicken? 21:29:17 so perhaps you need to explain what you mean by "crappy" 21:29:43 ime steppers encourage lazy and inefficient debugging, so i'd rather avoid 21:29:55 can be just the thing occasionally, though 21:30:17 Krystof: Then it must be windows, because this thing is pretty bad. I do C-u-C-C to the functions I want to debug, stick a break in there 21:30:25 ("the Squeak stepper" rather) 21:30:30 yes, well, that's completely wrong 21:30:32 don't do that 21:30:55 then I go into the stepper, which does step, but it really jumps all over and evaluating never seems to work because any variable I want to check is unbound 21:31:22 Krystof: That's what it said to do on the web page I found. What *should* I be doing? 21:32:00 dunno. Maybe you're right; it's been a while (apart from the "jumps all over the place", that sounds wrong) 21:32:34 well, I probably don't have to do the C-u-C-C. afaik that just recompiles with max debugging and I have a declaim statement anyway 21:32:52 let's say I want to write a "safer-cl" package that is essentially a wrapper for CL, excepts that it catches common unportable idioms such as (defconstant +foo+ '(1 2 3)) 21:33:09 1- what other things than defconstant should it catch 21:33:22 Fare: strings 21:33:24 2- is there already such a thing? 21:33:27 Fare: oh, nvm 21:33:27 strings? 21:33:54 3- should I create yet another lisp library for that? 21:33:57 I guess I'll go look around on how to trace then, though I really hate doing a post mortem on code. :( 21:34:14 jbjohns: (trace function-name) 21:34:20 for me, the stepper, activated with (step (fact 3)), has just stepped through the execution that I asked for, highlighting each form in turn 21:34:40 Fare: IMO you should 21:34:42 Krystof: It does that, but it jumps whole forms 21:35:05 at each point, the backtrace shows the values of local variables; I can hit RET on them to inspect them 21:35:06 Krystof: and despite having (speed 0) (debug 3) etc., the variable names are unbound 21:35:31 Fare: that's pretty much what I want to do with iolib.base 21:35:45 jbjohns: I hear not being in the right frame is a common issue. 21:35:45 Fare: you could modify a lisp implementation to throw nasty warnings if you try to do unportable things! :) 21:35:47 oh. Should I contribute it to iolib.base then? 21:36:12 I wanted to name the package :safer-cl 21:36:15 pkhuong: I make sure the cursor is on the right frame, and I in fact try them all! :) 21:36:28 so instead of (:use ... :cl ...) you'd (:use ... :safer-cl ...) 21:36:30 jbjohns: I think you have to press RET too. 21:36:53 Fade: yes, that's correct 21:36:58 or maybe (:use #+safer-cl :safer-cl #-safer-cl :cl) 21:36:59 I meant Fare 21:37:13 -!- benny99 [n=benny@p5486FF0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:37:31 Fare: better not do that 21:37:54 you'd have to maintain two sets of sources 21:38:06 uh? 21:38:09 Fare: that should be #+safer-cl #-safer-cl :safer-cl :cl (or is that backwards?) to exercise the reader, right? 21:38:31 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:38:37 slyrus, gah! 21:38:40 :) 21:39:00 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 21:39:36 Fare: you'd have to make sure that your program works when using CL, and also when shadowing some of the CL symbols or whatever 21:39:41 have an evil (setup-safer-cl) that renames packages and recompile everything :) 21:39:46 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:39:47 fe[nl]ix, so iolib-posix was dissolved into osicat and iolib.syscalls? 21:40:09 Ugh, this is really strange. I have a file I'm parsing of srt subtitles. I just refactored this ugly state machine I had to have a special function that knows the format of records 21:40:18 Fare: it's basically the same as having to maintain in parallel two very similar branches. not a nice thing IMO 21:40:27 Fare: something like that 21:41:06 As an added benefit this new function can deal with it if the end of the file has an extra newline. But now for some reason the initial function returns nil if the *end* of the file has a newline, but if I go in that file and delete the last line, then it runs perfect 21:41:31 and this is the issue with the tracing, I just see execution going into the function in question and it returning nil. No idea why it's returning nil 21:43:22 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178038183.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:00 omg! Now I found it, though I don't understand it. SBCL on windows returns a Ctrl-M from (read-line stream nil nil) 21:44:06 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e178038183.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:40 jbjohns: do you have the right external format? 21:44:40 jbjohns: that's #\Return 21:44:40 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:04 So I have a function that just unconditionally trims the last char of the string it's given. Somehow it seems that the read-line call above does *not* return ^M if there are *2* blank lines at the end of the file.... 21:45:50 pkhuong: what external format should I use? I haven't touched that, as I assumed the default was correct 21:46:14 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:46:32 jbjohns: why not use (string-right-trim '(#\Newline #\Return) line) 21:47:05 oh wait, I think I know what's going on. The file I write out doesn't have ^M, but when I delete the last line in wordpad and save it, he puts them back in. Nevermind. "blush* 21:47:11 and any other whitespace, I would think 21:47:36 adeht: thanks, I'll make that change 21:48:24 How can I record source location information for a function without using defun in SBCL? 21:49:08 I found this sb-c::info function, but it seems to only work with other things. 21:49:13 SBCL doesn't support windows-style newlines at the moment 21:50:40 S11001001: tell sbcl-devel what you need, and maybe we can provide a supported interface 21:50:49 (or sbcl-help) 21:50:49 S11001001, try to macroexpand defun -- it calls sb-impl::%defun 21:50:59 I've looked there 21:51:29 currently your options are limited to digging into internals, which means that sooner or later your code *will* break 21:51:45 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:55 nikodemus, what would be a good interface to feeding sbcl the *actual* source-locations of something I preprocessed into CL? 21:51:58 alright, doing mail 21:52:15 pkhuong: btw the other day I implemented your idea (pyramids) in the mona lisa evolution port.. it works well 21:52:20 fwiw, SB-C:SOURCE-LOCATION has a compiler-macro that expands into the source location object 21:52:47 but %defun only uses that object in the case of redefinition 21:52:50 then there are various bits and pieces that link source locations to objects of all sorts 21:52:57 so recording happens somewhere else 21:53:17 Fare: dunno 21:53:18 the info interface is nice I guess, and I could use it to record defvars and symbol macros and stuff, with the source-location thing 21:53:27 gotto go again... 21:53:31 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:54:29 lispm [n=joswig@e177123153.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:54:34 adeht: it's a trick I picked up reading up on machine learning and global optimisation methods. You guide the algorithm to first focus on the large scale/easy stuff to avoid getting stuck in local optima. 21:55:30 -!- ksergio [n=sgarcia@mail.nuecho.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:56:44 pkhuong: yep.. I first met pyramids when I dealt with point tracking code at work 21:58:31 Eleanore [n=a@ip215131.lbinternet.se] has joined #lisp 21:59:39 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 22:01:40 adeht: does it converge 9000 times faster? (: 22:02:52 well it eliminates the annoyance of waiting for the generated image to resemble anything like the target image, but it doesn't really help once it reaches this state 22:03:21 then the fitness function is again the main problem 22:03:27 adeht: right. 22:03:34 among other things, I moved the fitness function to nvidia, but that didn't give too much speed-up, because of bandwidth issues. 22:03:46 to deal with that I need to render the image using opengl 22:04:17 and then share a PBO (pixelbuffer object) with the nv code 22:06:05 adeht: interesting stuff. Do paste or link. 22:10:13 well I didn't get to the ogl code yet.. the code I pasted is horribly inefficient, so I worked on that for a bit, and also switched from cl-gd to my own opencv bindings that I wrote for work (they also have pyramids functions), but opencv doesn't have alpha blending, so I had to rip out gd's fill-polygon function and use that.. then I added the nv stuff, but the code is kinda messy to my taste.. needs cleanup 22:11:24 also, these are non-convex polygons, and ogl doesn't like that, so I suppose I should use a tesselator or something 22:11:47 I also encountered that problem when I tried to generate an svg out of the drawings 22:11:59 I also used cl-store to save/restore drawings ;) 22:15:38 I noticed that cl-opengl doesn't have bindings for the tesselator yet 22:15:43 adeht: it would be cute if cl-store would up being your bottleneck. 22:15:53 rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:16:18 pkhuong: nah.. I use it just to get drawings to/from the hdd.. no use in processing 22:16:22 k. 22:16:36 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:16:36 Is anyone familiar with ITERATE? Does it handle multiple-value binding any more gracefully than LOOP does? 22:17:02 elurin` [n=user@85.99.65.141] has joined #lisp 22:17:11 -!- rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:17:14 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-117-028.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:45 rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:33 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:19:58 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable032.182-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:20:44 Is there an example of a lisp function with "static typing with polymorphism"? 22:21:50 -!- hefnr [n=hefner@c-69-140-128-97.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["All these memories will be lost, like tears in rain."] 22:22:14 I also need to think about culisp, my more-than-lisp-bindings for nvidia.. it looks like PTX (the intermediate assembly) is specially designed for C.. 22:24:42 -!- elurin [n=user@88.254.109.35] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:25:51 -!- segv [n=mb@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:26:30 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 22:27:33 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:28:47 rpg_: The iterate manual should have information about binding: http://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/doc/ 22:29:00 Bewilder [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 22:29:55 Thanks, Guest53748: found a comparision article that pointed me right at it. I'm finally sick of emacs not knowing how to indent LOOP and have a good multiple-value construct to loop over, so I'm going to give iterate a whirl! 22:30:13 -!- rpg_ is now known as rpg 22:31:31 pkhuong/adeht multiscale method like it seems you're talkinag about are very practical, but tricky to analyse and can be misleading 22:31:40 rpg: While I'm all for switching to iterate, unbounded keyword depth one of its many advantages, you ought to know that the indentation thing can be easily fixed 22:31:51 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:31:57 S11001001: how? 22:32:14 (although I still find the multiple-value binding a compelling argument) 22:32:29 (require 'slime-indentation) (slime-indentation-init) 22:32:35 in contribs 22:32:35 salex: misleading how? 22:32:57 adeht: i'm planning on porting my term project to OpenCL (: 22:33:00 S11001001: I must use ELI as well as SLIME (the former for ACL), so the indentation argument is still compelling! 22:33:14 indeed 22:33:19 BTW, does slime now handle debugging in multiple threads? 22:33:38 but you will surely encounter others LOOPs whose authors would consider it rude for you to change them willy-nilly :) 22:33:46 others' 22:33:53 adeht: lead you to the wrong area of the configuration space if you aren't careful 22:34:09 S11001001: I have already cleared with my colleagues the use of ITERATE on a test basis (i.e., only in newly-introduced loops). 22:34:16 lots of these sorts of algorithms are difficult to analyse before you make them multiscale 22:34:29 much worse after (cf sim. anneal) 22:35:26 nb, i'm not sure exactly what you are trying to do, just reacting to pkhoungs comment that he read up about this in mach. learning & optim. lit 22:35:55 pkhuong: I know very little about OpenCL.. though I guess it's very much like CUDA 22:35:59 salex: oh yeah, hell to analyse, but It (seems to) Work (tm). 22:36:09 but that's the problem 22:36:21 it actually doesn't work well, in practical cases 22:36:30 so the tricky thing is to figure out when :) 22:36:36 erm, in some practical cases 22:37:05 (setq lisp-loop-forms-indentation 6 lisp-loop-keyword-indentation 6 lisp-simple-loop-indentation 2) fixes Emacs LOOP indentation for me without loading slime-indent, which is very big. 22:37:09 it's also hard to analyse when you're going to fast, etc, or if you really want multigrid type approach etc. 22:37:18 there are some empirical things you can do, too 22:37:24 restarts, etc. 22:37:25 salex: I can see how it can do that in cases like the point tracking problem I mentioned.. but in the mona lisa evolution case it seems harmless 22:37:37 rpg: where do you work with Lisp? 22:37:43 yeah, i don' tknow that problem which is why I added caveat 22:37:52 i just know that there are problems with it in general 22:38:00 which doesn't mean it's not the right thing to do 22:38:00 S11001001: http://www.sift.info 22:38:12 but it does mean it's can be wrong if done naively 22:39:19 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:40:17 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 22:41:41 -!- sam_ [n=Sami__@e81-197-69-201.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [] 22:43:06 salex: in the latter case, even if it comes up with utter garbage it doesn't really matter - worst thing that can happen is that it takes more time 22:45:18 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.202.70] has joined #lisp 22:45:45 why, is it convex+small noise or something? Why won't it plausible miss better solutions? 22:47:03 or do you just mean you're roughly happy with anything it will palusibly find? 22:47:08 salex: it's just use to give a head-start, to reach an approximation faster.. after all, it's a genetic algorithm, and I already start with complete garbage and let the selection process do its job 22:47:44 you miss my point 22:48:08 genetic algs. are just one example of stochastic searches 22:48:33 and they aren't going to find you a global opt. 22:49:04 in practice, you'll at best hope to find something like the best local solution skipping nearby locals 22:49:45 but if your rescaling/multiscale/whatever works badly, it may in all probability cut you of from an entire section of the configuration space, that might hold a vastly better solution 22:50:11 (not that this is easy to avoid, in general. i'm jus twondering what you mean by `worsthing is it takes longer' 22:50:21 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:24 hmm... I'm probably going to burn in floating point hell for this. 22:51:36 what's a good way to limit floating point precision to, say, fairly useful numbers of digits, like, comparing to bond angles to see if their 109.5 22:52:32 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:00 slyrus_: delta < 1e-5 or some other fixed epsilon? 22:54:07 why limit the precision? you can just check the error.... 22:54:49 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 22:56:45 salex: yes, it tends to suggest a different region of configurations.. but it doesn't force me to stay within that region 22:57:07 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:57:32 adeht: i haven't seen the implementation or the problem in enough detail to be sure, but in general, yes, that's what multiscale methods do in practice 22:58:11 at least if they are effective 22:58:39 you can't have your cake and eat it too here 22:59:12 but maybe i don't have the specifics, adn you are talking about a very simple (in this context) problem 22:59:56 salex: http://rogeralsing.com/2008/12/07/genetic-programming-evolution-of-mona-lisa/ if you haven't seen it yet 23:00:01 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable032.182-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:00:15 1) not genetic 23:00:18 2) not genetic programming 23:00:24 3) polygons have unlimited edges 23:00:24 ;) 23:00:30 thks, i'll have a look if i have a chance 23:00:33 but now, meeting 23:00:34 bbl 23:00:39 phoodus: I'm not interested in arguing over words 23:01:13 (in general though, everything i've said applies to all search/optimization on complicated surfaces) 23:01:46 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483E2B9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:02:26 salex: k, cya.. movie time for me 23:03:26 -!- deximer [n=deximer@c-75-69-229-178.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:04:21 salex: I want things "normalized" for lack of a better word such that 2pi - (something < epsilon) => 0 degrees 23:04:29 err.. radians 23:04:36 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable032.182-23-96.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 23:05:34 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:34 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:09:17 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:44 -!- fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit ["Quit"] 23:14:03 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:14:18 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 23:17:25 Fare, the diff for README.rest suggested you wasn't! 23:17:30 (weren't) 23:21:55 slyrus_: or work in rational degrees? 23:24:55 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:26:22 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@244.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:27:27 jkantz [n=jkantz@c-66-30-114-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:12 anyone know if sbcl has a logical pathname that can be set for finding sbcls sources from slime? 23:31:27 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:31:33 right now it is looking in /home/chandler/Sources/sbcl-builddir/20081201.x86/sbcl/src 23:35:55 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.202.70] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:36:10 fe[nl]ix pasted "set sbcl source location" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72423 23:38:46 fe[nl]ix: thank you! 23:41:02 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 23:41:15 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:15 safds [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has joined #lisp 23:41:25 -!- safds [n=SomeOne@88.208.105.1] has left #lisp 23:41:41 aidinux-user12 [n=aidinux_@41.224.142.209] has joined #lisp 23:42:26 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 23:43:32 gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-46-222.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:48 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 23:45:20 -!- aidinux-user12 [n=aidinux_@41.224.142.209] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:45:41 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:45:53 netaust1n [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:50 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:20 ^authentic [n=authenti@85-127-21-166.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 23:55:53 -!- demmeln [n=demmeln@atradig112.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:57:02 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@68-191-51-69.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:57:40 -!- a-s [n=user@92.81.96.202] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:57:45 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:59:13 pkhuong: I was thinking about this all wrong. I just need a different operator for measuring the distance between angles. 23:59:21 -!- Jether [n=jmc33@host86-167-221-155.range86-167.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 23:59:58 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp