00:00:07 Mudballs got Git support. That does it, I'm writing mudballs for all my stuff. 00:01:00 locklace: oh, I know it's the sed regexp syntax. I meant is there an irc plugin for actually substituting automatically? 00:01:44 http://mudballs.com/pipermail/mudballs/2008-December/000044.html Hooray \o/ 00:02:03 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 00:03:12 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 00:03:32 meingbg: I think I saw one for xchat, but most people just do them in their heads 00:04:49 housel: Which I would prefer, since then i can keep track of what's substituted and not. 00:07:41 Is there any way to have a reference in lisp that doesn't keep what's referenced to get gc'ed? 00:08:08 many implementations support weak references 00:08:10 meingbg: SBCL has weak pointers 00:08:15 nothing standard, though 00:08:22 (surprisingly, I'd say. 00:08:24 ) 00:09:00 yeah, I don't see how I'm gonna do this thing w/o weak pointers, if I'm not gonna write my own GC on top of SBCL. 00:09:27 meingbg: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Garbage-Collection.html 00:10:05 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:15 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:10:45 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 00:11:40 GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:52 -!- nicolas__ [n=nicolas@inv75-2-82-225-243-109.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:12:00 sykopomp: looks exactly like what I need. 00:13:04 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-78-3.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:14:26 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:15:01 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:16:09 Eleanore [n=a@ip215131.lbinternet.se] has joined #lisp 00:17:46 anyone know if any lisp on win32 is able to run as a service/daemon? 00:17:47 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:40 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:01 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:21:06 -!- wasabi_____ [n=wasabi@ntoska310174.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:21:51 fusss: what are you trying to do ? my guess is that you can start any lisp with the SYSTEM user (or any other) account using the Windows Tasks Scheduler 00:22:09 meingbg: keep in mind that the pointers stay around even after you've garbage collected what they point to. So wherever you're keeping them will probably have to be maintained. 00:22:19 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:22:20 -!- GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:22:25 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["__"] 00:22:40 blandest: just don't wanna see a dos box or any other lisp window showing 00:22:45 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:23:47 fusss: create a new user account (with the proper privileges) and then use a scheduling job to start it 00:23:51 sykopomp: Oh, yeah. The whole point is to get a hint that an object has been GC'd, so I can take appropriate action. 00:23:57 wasabi_____ [n=wasabi@ntoska181055.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:24:04 blandest: not a bad idea, thanks :-) 00:24:19 you have something like: C:\> schtasks /TN my-lisp /Run 00:24:47 I'm not using Windows rigth now so I cannot test this 00:25:07 i can google for the correct syntax, no worries 00:26:05 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-033-208.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:04 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:29:21 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-156-75.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:34 and the rest as they say, is history :-) # 00:32:41 Plain-ODBC rocks! 00:33:45 now trying plain-odbc + clisp on linux, controlling win32 filemaker via Netcat :-P 00:34:15 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 00:34:56 wasabi______ [n=wasabi@ntoska309195.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:36:55 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:25 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-047-072.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:31 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 00:41:09 Modred_ [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:41:09 -!- Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:44:32 -!- wasabi______ [n=wasabi@ntoska309195.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:48 -!- wasabi_____ [n=wasabi@ntoska181055.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:52 wasabi______ [n=wasabi@ntoska309195.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:46:52 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:47:55 I would like to use tramp in windows with tools from putty, any one can help? 00:48:16 leo2007: probably better to ask in #emacs 00:48:26 ahaas: I did that too. 00:55:30 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 00:55:53 has anyone seen afuchs recently? 00:58:02 http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/08.12.12 04:46:38 fwiw 01:01:15 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:06:48 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:10:24 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-23-190.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:00 divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:21 wasabi_______ [n=wasabi@ntoska144130.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:13:31 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:13:47 is tramp the thing that lets use you attach your slime to a remote lisp process? 01:14:21 any update on whether it works on win32 is greatly appreciated 01:14:28 no, it's the thing that lets you use find-file on remote files 01:15:40 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:15:46 oh 01:16:08 i have samba and nfs for that :-P 01:17:30 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:17:54 halfhuman [n=Kenan@88.238.40.24] has joined #lisp 01:19:41 -!- halfhuman [n=Kenan@88.238.40.24] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.1.1"] 01:20:45 -!- maodun [n=stopgo@c-67-180-49-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:21:49 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:22:01 lugg [i=lugg@cpe-74-67-173-240.rochester.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:22:12 division-bell [n=Kenan@88.238.40.24] has joined #lisp 01:22:28 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:23:34 maodun [n=stopgo@c-67-180-49-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:35 -!- wasabi______ [n=wasabi@ntoska309195.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:46 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:25:35 -!- lugg [i=lugg@cpe-74-67-173-240.rochester.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 01:25:45 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:26:57 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:10 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 01:27:26 -!- KucukMubasir [n=Halliday@unaffiliated/kucukmubasir] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:28:25 03:22 *** NAMES division-bell lugg wasabi_______ divinebovine cmm Fare wasabi______ Modred_ stassats leo2007 bombshelter13 dash__ schme mattrepl Dawgmatix Eleanore kpreid amnesiac dialtone yangsx Eno_ froog sellout antgreen2 Adamant Athas drdo cipher fe[nl]ix blandest crod Phoodus KucukMubasir rpg slash_ fusss holycow Nshag hefnr daniel_ binarycodes oudeis dv_ Jasko dcrawford existentialmonk esden tmh BrianRice tessi 01:28:25 er_ wlr_ ace4016 Soulman specbot minion lisppaste Jarvellis rotty HET2 kejsaren Khisanth cracki mrsolo willb Odin- |jeremiah Tordek saikat jlf ths V-ille tsuru sohail fisxoj matimago ASau meingbg ikki jajcloz josemanuel manuel_ tcr benny NoorDextor locklace b4|hraban dto ia cky pchrist pchrist|univ bob_f Ashy H4ns1 spiderbyte jjong gonzojive_ rtoym mueslisc1nitte abeaumont alpheus ianmcorvidae bpt arbscht_ lnostdal 01:28:25 S11001001 authentic pon][ JuanDaugherty mqt kidd1 olejorge1b CrazyEddy xan Quadrescence merlincorey tltstc ksergio free_tinker rread haiwei andrerav Draggor rsynnott l3dx madnificent kuhzoo VityokOrgUa kidd Starsie ltbarcly kleppari dfox weirdo jogla bobrown antoszka kzar colouragga galdor knobo rdd Aji-Dahaka Ginei_Morioka eno Balooga_ scode r0bby maxote nullwork Balooga cmatei sjbach beach froydnj vcgomes replaca 01:28:25 -!- division-bell [n=Kenan@88.238.40.24] has quit [Excess Flood] 01:28:34 not agin 01:28:38 hahaha "oops" 01:28:39 *sigh* 01:28:50 aiee 01:29:02 well, it *could* be a mispaste 01:29:25 division-bell [n=Kenan@88.238.40.24] has joined #lisp 01:29:34 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@ip98-169-46-222.dc.dc.cox.net] has left #lisp 01:29:35 division-bell: go away 01:29:44 ? 01:30:43 division-bell: Why did you paste the entire list of users in the channel here? 01:31:04 what was that about? 01:31:09 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:31:51 :) sorry it is the first time i use emacs and i donno what i'm doin :) 01:32:08 really sorry 01:32:17 np 01:32:27 learning to operate emacs is like learning to operate an atomic bomb sometimes 01:32:28 :) 01:32:29 ok 01:32:38 is it the red wire or the blue? 01:32:40 lol :) 01:32:47 i even didn't understand that i was in the channel :D 01:33:28 are you interested in lisp? 01:33:35 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 01:33:54 yes, that's why i'm interested in emacs :) 01:34:18 well this channel isn't about emacs, but your in the right place for lisp. 01:34:25 division-bell: this channel is mainly for Common Lisp. Emacs uses emacs-lisp. 01:34:25 *you're 01:35:15 What's the best way to convert a vector to a simple-array? 01:35:20 occasionally I send "xb" to a channel in ERC 01:35:25 never the output of /who though 01:35:25 division-bell, there are several lisps, common, scheme, emacs, this channel is mostly about common which is the big time one. 01:35:34 ahaas: coerce? 01:35:48 (i'm not sure) 01:36:03 (coerce ? 'simple-vector) probably 01:36:22 I get a SIMPLE-TYPE-ERROR for that. 01:36:36 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:09 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:37:11 -!- Modred_ is now known as Modred 01:37:28 then make-array with initial-contents 01:37:49 ahaas: would you paste an example of what kind of vector you're trying to convert ? 01:38:14 is there huge differences between the implementations of lisp for a beginner? 01:38:33 fe[nl]ix: It's the result of flexi-streams:with-output-to-sequence. 01:38:47 except scheme, i know it has it's own way 01:39:17 I would say most implementations of common lisp are equivalent for a beginner. 01:39:38 But, as usual, some are nicer than others in various ways. :-) 01:40:34 ahaas: what element-type did you pass to w-o-t-s ? 01:40:44 scbl seems great but i doesn't have windows post i think? 01:41:01 fe[nl]ix: none 01:41:23 although i've seen an experimental version for windows 01:41:41 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@38.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 01:41:42 division-bell, you're breaking up. 01:41:54 division-bell: use the experimental version 01:42:00 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 01:42:10 or the somewhat more experimental Clozure-for-win32 01:42:55 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:43:22 ah, sp "windows post" means a posted download for sbcl built for dos. 01:43:24 ahaas: then (coerce vector '(simple-array (unsigned-byte 8) (*))) will do 01:43:27 *so 01:44:18 fe[nl]ix: Thank you very much. 01:44:35 -!- crod [n=cmell@d288be-124.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:44:51 i use lispbox with allegro and it seems good enough for now but i don't know about the limitations of public version of allegro cl 01:44:58 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:11 crod [n=cmell@d288be-124.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:45:12 sorry i mean "port", not "post" :) 01:45:56 ths__ [n=ths@X7722.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:46:53 attention to detail kid, a principle to remember. 01:47:25 anyway i think lisp is huge, but it seems as if it's suffering from lack of library standardization and clear documentation. 01:48:17 no, it doesn't. 01:48:29 you're opinion is superficial and uninformed. 01:48:52 *your 01:49:28 my opinion is probably wrong because of my newbie'ness :) 01:49:30 division-bell, actually I agree 01:50:06 Lisp is mostly an emergent system 01:50:11 it's suffering from lack of people, too :-\ I think the two problems you mentioned are a sign of the small community. 01:50:12 Hello. I'm using flexi-streams to switch a string's encoding, and I've defined a use-value handler for EXTERNAL-FORMAT-ENCODING-ERROR 01:50:13 there's a bunch of good libraries, but for certain applications coverage is spotty 01:50:21 division-bell, how would you improve things? 01:50:27 and the good libraries don't necessarily stay updated and good 01:50:39 mogunus, don't, use babel 01:50:40 Although I think it's a testament to Lisp's niceness that a small group of good hackers manage to spit out some (admittedly mostly unpolished) libs. 01:50:43 I'm trying to figure out if there is an accessor for the octet that causes the error. 01:50:44 flexi string is slow and consing 01:51:14 weirdo: Ugh, okay. I couldn't find any documentation for babel, could you link me to some? 01:51:17 I meant common lisp. 01:51:37 mogunus, usage is pretty self-explanatory 01:51:39 JuanDaugherty: I don't think he's wrong, either... 01:51:42 i mean, the function names 01:51:46 octets-to-string 01:51:46 the situation is to be compared with other lang cultures (eg. php, java, etc.) 01:51:47 string-to-octets 01:51:56 what i mean is, even if i'm wrong, shouln't it be easier to dive into the language for a newbie? 01:52:01 the libraries aren't part of the core language defined by the spec 01:52:19 division-bell: I agree. There are tools popping up that will make it easier though. 01:52:21 division-bell, what's the deal? read PCL and check cliki for libraries 01:52:24 minion: tell division-bell about pcl 01:52:25 division-bell: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 01:52:35 the cultural norms of the lisp culture are equal or superior to those of other langs 01:53:01 roughly 01:53:31 (based on my roughly 35 years programming) 01:53:33 division-bell: http://phil.nullable.eu/ ABLE is a nice initial alternative to emacs+slime (unless you're already pretty comfortable with emacs and/or are willing to go through all the motions of setting things up) 01:53:50 JuanDaugherty: that's quite an aggressive stance though. I don't know if it helps. 01:54:07 helps what? 01:54:46 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:54:46 an understanding of the real state of affairs between computing subcultures? 01:54:54 bbl 01:54:58 JuanDaugherty, lisp people are pretty cold, though 01:55:06 maybe it's a good thing 01:55:20 i don't find that 01:55:25 Allright. I poked into the source and tests.lisp for babel is pretty decent. 01:55:27 *stassats* doesn't understand how norms can be superior or not superior 01:55:39 JuanDaugherty: helps with people being willing to accept lisp. Honestly, no matter how much you tell them that Lisp is "The Right Thing", if they show up in a channel and are greeted with a slap in the face, they'll most likely just leave. 01:56:01 well there is that 01:56:09 a lot of that 01:56:26 i think the lisp thing comes down to marketing 01:56:30 look at ruby on rails 01:56:35 -!- ths [n=ths@X6098.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:38 a totall crap framework that barely works 01:56:41 Lisp has a horrible barrier of entry, and not enough marketing. So yes. 01:56:42 ruby on rails is also standardized 01:56:47 but throw a few videos up on a website and voila 01:56:49 and lisp is very hard to deploy 01:56:51 and documente 01:56:52 d 01:56:53 :-) 01:56:54 instant fanboy club 01:57:02 Phoodus: it's as standardized as any library written by some random guy is going to be. 01:57:11 you could argue cl-ppcre is 'standardized' as well. 01:57:31 i'm not sure diluting the lisp culture with monkey-coding morons would have much value 01:57:33 *ducks* 01:57:33 with regards to this whole thing, I usually sum it up by saying that the Lisp community tends to be locked into a "roll your own" mindset 01:57:48 well it doesn't 01:57:50 just look at ror 01:58:04 some say there is no such thing as lisp community 01:58:15 there are prevailing mindsets 01:58:18 well, there's #lisp and c.l.l. 01:58:21 weirdo: Certainly, not all Ruby people are monkey-coding morons. The culture is different, yes, and RoR is designed in such a way that it attracts a lot of non-programmers (who then ask completely idiotic questions because they don't want to actually learn the language) 01:58:34 bingo 01:59:23 weirdo: and in case you hadn't noticed, as nice as Lisp is, it isn't perfect either, and not all Lispers are enlightened gurus. 01:59:40 there's plenty of horrible-coded, monkey-patched apps. Just browse through cliki, you'll find a few. :) 02:00:23 to be specific, complete lack of packages, no thought to thread safety, no documentation, no cross-lisp portability 02:00:57 the not-invented-here syndrome is compounded by ffi-phobia 02:01:18 there are no "enlightened gurus" only sucker adepts 02:02:15 Phoodus: what the hell are you talking about? 02:02:29 the horrible-coded monkey-patched apps 02:02:36 sykopomp, the webapp crowd's a different league, though 02:02:51 slacking12 [n=slacking@ip68-101-220-87.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:51 php is still most popular, it says a lot 02:02:55 Phoodus: cl-stm for transactional memory, bordeaux threads for standard spawn-thread-use-locks threading, a 02:03:06 *fantastic* packages system (I really like lisp's packages) 02:03:26 mudballs is a very promising system loading and distribution system 02:03:43 and I can't even begin to count the numerous cross-implementation-compatibility libraries. 02:03:57 *Phoodus* waits for sykopomp to read his reply 02:04:36 weirdo: That's because you have both: 1) Code monkeys that scrap together a mumbo-jumbo of PHP code 2) Stupid clients who want to use free/cheap hosting for their website/webapp, so they go for PHP because it's so easy to setup and deploy 02:04:36 Phoodus: I thought you were replying to my 'lisp isn't perfect' thing. Sorry :) 02:04:41 how to start swank? 02:04:53 :) 02:05:05 swank:start-server ? 02:05:24 sykopomp: if i get time during the holidays i'll bug you about all the *cool* lispy things out there :) 02:05:30 and write out something on the cliki 02:05:50 divinebovine: I'm still working on my silly little intro tutorial :P 02:06:01 actually, maybe I'll get back to that tonight. I've been neglecting it. 02:06:03 cliki really needs some sort of voting or tagging system 02:06:03 p_l: man that is so true 02:06:21 sykopomp: you wanna use me as a test case? 02:06:26 i'm a complete non programmer retard 02:06:28 :) 02:06:32 speaking of cool lispy things... I just started going through several lisp tutorials and am very interested. Can anyone point me in the direction of a good, fair breakdown of the pros and cons of lisp when compared to other major high-level languages 02:06:35 divinebovine: that's exactly the crowd I'm aiming for ;) 02:06:38 lets see if I CAN get it ... then anyone can 02:06:39 :) 02:06:47 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:06:50 minion: lisp features? 02:06:51 i like lisp... i'm written in it 02:06:55 certain things seem really cool, but obviously different for someone used to C. 02:06:56 lol 02:06:58 in fact i am an architecture student and i learn lisp just because it seemed like a peace of art to me, so i think it will help me improve my abstractions skills etc. and i think if even i can see the great characteristics of lisp, and most of the computer science community can't, there should really be some monkey-coding morons out there. but on the other hand, it still lacks of some presentation, standardization et 02:06:58 minion: features? 02:06:58 c. imho :) 02:06:59 features: Common lisp allows implementations to have extensions, and has an official way of testing for them, via membership of the *features* list. http://www.cliki.net/features 02:07:04 minion: i like your style 02:07:04 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 02:07:05 damn 02:07:25 http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp thanks google 02:07:25 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:07:43 sykopomp: if you are going to put the effort in, i'm willing to step up and take up the really col offer 02:07:44 cool 02:07:48 thanks minion and stassats 02:08:00 i've done portions of various lisp tutorials online, i really like what i've been exposed to 02:08:01 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 02:08:03 i'd like to see more 02:08:08 minion: features of common lisp? 02:08:08 features of common lisp: Features of Common Lisp, a one-page summary of what makes Common Lisp unique: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 02:08:22 i did that one where you create a simple database app for tracking cd's 02:08:25 I want to put something in .sbclrc so that it starts swank server. Could you someone help me? I am trying to set up a remote development environment and I am new to this. 02:08:32 i haveto revisit that again, i've forgotten 02:08:36 does anyone have some insights as to why common lisp is not more fully integrated within emacs? 02:08:57 is it just more robust and less efficient than emacs lisp? 02:09:01 RMS hates progress. 02:09:05 lol 02:09:07 really? 02:09:11 divinebovine: I already have two pages of it done, actually. It pushes people straight into CLOS and getting the actual feel of what coding in Lisp feels like. I'm trying to avoid explaining things too much (I haven't even touched conses yet, actually, and I don't think I want to talk about the car/cdr thing) 02:09:13 mogunus pasted "babel usage" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72273 02:09:25 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 02:09:25 Yes. He is resistant to ideas like lexical scope by default and packages. 02:09:27 you mind elaborating?... I'm not that familiar with him or FSF goings on 02:09:35 chandler: emacs-lisp was developed before Common Lisp came to existence. 02:09:43 sykopomp: i'm right up on that 02:09:46 sounds good dude 02:09:48 slacking12: RMS is... a weird person. Another thing is that Emacs Lisp is Lisp1, Common Lisp is Lisp2 02:09:52 sykopomp: He has refused to modernize the language, though. 02:09:54 so what is the primary advantage of lexical scope and how does it differ from traditional local scope? 02:09:55 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 02:10:00 this time of year tends to be slow, i would love to particapate 02:10:01 p_l: um, no. Emacs Lisp is a Lisp2. 02:10:09 division-bell` [n=Kenan@88.238.43.242] has joined #lisp 02:10:11 p_l: I thought it was a lisp2 02:10:27 chandler: IIRC Lisp2 requires you to have separate function and variable namespaces 02:10:28 slacking12: they're basically the same thing, with the addition that lexical scope can also override global (aka dynamic) variables within that scope 02:10:31 p_l: the big thing about elisp is that it only has dynamic scoping. 02:10:41 well also inertia, i don't see how one can move emacs to cl without loosing all the goodies and having to rewrite them 02:10:45 p_l: that's what emacs has 02:10:45 So what I'm trying is string-to-octets on my unicode string, then octets to string with encoding :ascii on the result of that. 02:10:50 and Lisp1 uses only one (Scheme and Emacs Lisp)? 02:10:51 sometimes it just pays to keep limping along 02:11:01 although i cant wait to see more of climacs 02:11:07 p_l: That is correct. Emacs Lisp uses separate function and variable namespaces. 02:11:08 xreyes [n=xreyes@8.84-48-175.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 02:11:11 gotcha, so a globally scoped variable can still be in effect but not override a variable declared ina let statemtn for example? 02:11:16 When it hits a character that has no ascii representation, I'd like to be able to substitute based on the code of the character. How do I use babel to do that? 02:11:18 slacking12: so something like (let ((*global-var* 3)) (some-func)), when some-func gets called, it'll see the global variable as having 3, not what it had before, even though the global has not been changed 02:11:38 chandler: Ok, up to now I never noticed it, despite writing some code for myself :D 02:12:01 what wouldn't be feasible in emacs by conforming to cl stds? 02:12:11 mogunus: What are you trying to substitue? Something like #\? 02:12:28 Phoodus: it has more consequences, becasue not only some-func will see 3 02:12:32 slacking12: Nothing. It would also make it significantly easier to write large libraries or add-on packages. 02:12:33 chandler: well, I mean, where there is an o with an accent, I'd like to substitute an o. 02:12:40 slacking12: I don't really know, given that there is 'cl.el' which adds many things from CL 02:12:43 mogunus: And if there is no such equivalent? 02:12:45 chandler: an e with an accent should become a plain old e, etc. 02:12:59 mogunus: This process is generally fraught with peril and unlikely to be sensible in the general case. 02:13:00 chandler: as a last resort, a ?, yes. 02:13:19 chandler: in my special case, though, the *vast* majority of my content is utf-8 spanish. 02:13:32 So why isn't it sensible to use ISO-8859-1? 02:13:45 so when using something like slime, are there any gotchas as far as function conflict, or are things designed sufficiently separately, or does CL just take precedence when in slime mode and using clisp (for example) as the interpreter? 02:14:01 in emacs that is 02:14:04 chandler: because I was told that using only ASCII in URL's is best practice. 02:14:10 mogunus, iconv transliteration can probably do that 02:14:29 iconv gnu docs have some docs at getting the complicated thing working 02:14:39 slacking12: when using Slime, emacs acts as a terminal to the separately running Lisp. That has nothign to do with emacs's internal elisp 02:14:40 weirdo: it doesn't seem to want to do that on my computer. I end up only with question marks. 02:14:51 any suggestions as to how should I go around making SBCL fail due to Windows relocation problems? 02:15:06 mogunus: Ah. URLs are a funny case. I would tend to either use a single character for all non-ASCII code points, or use the DNS encoding. 02:15:09 Phoodus: okay, thanks. 02:15:16 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 02:15:38 p_l: you can try recompiling with different magic constants (not a solution, really) 02:15:55 urls? why not url-encode? 02:16:10 pkhuong: I'm thinking of what should I do to make the 1.0.22 build available from sf.net to fail on Win7 02:16:12 chandler: the DNS encoding? The strings that I'm encoding are people's names, so I'd prefer to not use just one character for all unknowns. 02:16:18 mogunus: If you really want to do this, you would want to find the canonical decomposition for those characters, which would turn the compatibility encoding for é into e followed by combining character latin acute (or whatever it's called) 02:16:44 -!- slacking12 [n=slacking@ip68-101-220-87.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:17:06 mogunus: Yes, it's called "punycode". 02:17:30 p_l: you want to trigger the relocation problem? 02:17:33 mogunus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Punycode 02:17:38 maybe parse that and get LETTER_A 02:17:57 but that's not portable 02:18:32 bobo [n=bobo@c-76-119-115-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:38 weirdo: can't you decode the octet vector using utf-16, and replace the offending characters in the resulting string ? 02:19:46 fe[nl]ix: That's what I was trying to do with flexi-streams 02:19:51 mogunus: I have thought about extending cl-unicode to provide information on the compatibility decompositions, and then using that to write a library for converting amongst the various normalization forms. If you were to convert to normalization form B and then strip out all combining characters, you would get the result you are looking for. 02:20:15 I tend to think this is a bad idea in general, though. 02:20:21 pkhuong: Yes, or other known problems. Just checking out windows 7 :) 02:21:17 fe[nl]ix: but I couldn't figure out what the accessor to the condition for the offending character was 02:21:33 -!- crod [n=cmell@d288be-124.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:21:41 fe[nl]ix: and in babel, it doesn't offer me a use-value when it hits something disallowed in ascii 02:21:50 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-e4ce768651bb5656] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:21:53 crod [n=cmell@d288be-124.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:22:36 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:22:44 -!- emma_ is now known as emma 02:23:18 http://paste.lisp.org/display/72276 02:23:33 I have successfully connect to swank. Yay! 02:23:52 now I need to get tramp working 02:24:11 p_l: iiuc, it's a fundamental problem w/ the dynamic loading system in win32. Either it's still lurking or they fixed it for real. Someone who really understand the issue (e.g. nyef) can probably tell you where to look for that info. 02:24:31 pkhuong: AFAIK they made it more complicated by NT6 02:25:08 mogunus, check out the url 02:25:14 http://paste.lisp.org/display/72276 02:25:28 though the list gets quite long 02:25:54 stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:25:56 weirdo: I'm not quite sure I understand? 02:26:25 that gets all possible transliterations for unicode code points according to impl's database 02:26:56 -!- division-bell [n=Kenan@88.238.40.24] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:27:05 pkhuong: Depending on flags in .exe you can have traditional hard-coded-or-relocated libraries, or randomized address space 02:27:31 p_l: both choices seem lossy. 02:28:03 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:28:05 alas, to the best of my knowledge that's all the choice you get 02:28:25 pkhuong: Second is very good, except that it disagrees with the way SBCL allocates memory 02:28:58 So SBCL tries to disable it on linux for itself 02:29:00 p_l: I think there are enough rants on randomisation already. 02:30:11 I tried finding the exact place SBCL allocates that block of memory today, but I failed. I wanted to patch it to use a file as backing store, to avoid the whole mess with overcommit :-) 02:30:49 mogunus, but instead of going up to char-code-limit, only select the interesting encoding, like, from the country you're from 02:31:21 *mogunus* nods 02:31:56 jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 02:32:00 I'm just trying to do this the sanest way possible. So it'd make sense to, say, turn that into a hash table and build my "stripped" strings by looking up each char? 02:33:06 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:33:13 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:33:24 mogunus, check this out, sb-impl::*unicode-character-name-database* on sbcl 02:33:40 oh wait, sorry. there's nothing interesting in there, apparently 02:34:06 minion: logs? 02:34:06 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 02:34:25 Hm, I can even check for SMALL in the char name and downcase the character appropriately. 02:34:55 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:35:22 note that it's not portable 02:35:24 :-) 02:35:33 even unicode support in the impl won't mean char-names stay the same 02:36:32 mulligan [n=user@e178011193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 02:36:32 I actually don't care about that. 02:36:36 I'm pretty married to SBCL. 02:37:05 hjpark [n=user@61.109.28.117] has joined #lisp 02:39:06 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:15 mogunus, make a function that checks given char-code and memoize it 02:40:09 *mogunus* nods 02:40:15 or don't bother with memoizing since there are so many char-code 02:40:15 s 02:40:19 emacs-lisp doesn't support multi thread, in this case, if i use (require 'cl) i can use multi thread? 02:40:36 no 02:40:47 for elisp support go to #emacs 02:40:47 That would be really nice. 02:40:56 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.131.141] has joined #lisp 02:40:57 -!- bobo [n=bobo@c-76-119-115-138.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:40:58 ok 02:41:56 weirdo: thanks for the help. this soultion feels wonderfully not-horrible. 02:43:57 -!- wasabi_______ [n=wasabi@ntoska144130.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:43:58 -!- chandler has set mode -o chandler 02:44:21 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.131.141] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:45:22 To completely switch gears, I've been having a lot of trouble with enable-repeat-keys in lispbuilders-sdl 02:45:56 wasabi_______ [n=wasabi@ntoska150189.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:46:29 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.195.113] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:47:01 mogunus: wow. Still!? 02:47:05 It doesn't seem to work. I call it with nil, nil, to select the defaults. 02:47:09 sykopomp: yeah. 02:47:19 sykopomp: I'm an idiot. It's a problem. 02:47:23 mogunus: did you try the mailing list at this point? That sounds pretty serious. 02:47:30 mogunus, the pcre bit stinks 02:47:52 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.131.141] has joined #lisp 02:48:40 weirdo: yeah, that's a bit unfortunate, but there doesn't seem to be an easy way to catch single characters and replace them how I want with babel 02:49:32 sykopomp: and enable-key-repeat-p returns 500 and 30, apparently the default values for delay and interval 02:49:35 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.131.141] has left #lisp 02:49:46 mogunus, what babel has to do with that? 02:49:54 replace them prior to re-encoding 02:50:33 weirdo: ahh, okay. I had it in my head that during re-encoding, they should be replaced with a condition handler. 02:51:04 sykopomp: but it just doesn't work. I hold down a key that works fine for one or many more presses, and get no repeated action 02:52:17 mogunus: dunno what to tell you. You may have to ask the devs :-\ 02:52:59 It's really annoying, because I've actually figured out some physics algorithms. 02:53:07 I'm going to implement an RK4 integrator 02:53:39 wasabi________ [n=wasabi@ntoska150189.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:53:45 yay, 2d physics in lisp, woo. and open source, of course, if anyone wants to use my forthcoming awful 2d physics engine. 02:54:05 *sykopomp* gets naughty thoughts. 02:54:11 but that involves math. *whines* 02:54:18 math is *love* 02:55:45 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:56:37 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:56:59 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 02:57:12 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279442397.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:57:51 -!- hjpark [n=user@61.109.28.117] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:57:58 hjpark [n=user@61.109.28.117] has joined #lisp 02:58:48 mogunus, http://paste.lisp.org/display/72276#1 02:59:08 too bad it can't transliterate cyrillic :/ 02:59:27 (transliterate-string-to-ascii "  !") doesn't work 02:59:36 apologize for my broken russian 02:59:46 impressive 03:00:55 djkthx_ [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 03:03:20 -!- cipher [n=cipher@pool-98-118-51-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:03:25 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:03:27 cipher` [n=cipher@pool-98-118-51-204.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:46 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:43 mogunus: i'd love to play around with something like that :) 03:04:51 but it conses a lot due to cl-ppcre usage... 03:04:53 -!- wasabi_______ [n=wasabi@ntoska150189.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:04:57 290,384 bytes consed 03:05:22 dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has joined #lisp 03:05:36 if its accessible in some easier way for noobs where i can kinda go okay 'move stuff around' and over time open up my math books again and start relearning that to add interesting behaviour 03:05:52 that would be cool indeed 03:08:11 divinebovine: the idea is for people to be able to use simple lisp functions to add objects with given properties to the simulation environment 03:08:34 divinebovine: also, people will be able to control/poke objects with the keyboard and mouse 03:08:53 Which is why this key-repeats issue is really annoying 03:10:12 ooooooooooo 03:10:15 dude! hehe 03:10:19 i love stuff like that :) 03:10:21 (I'm just learning about this stuff myself, so I need the interface niceness to experiment and poke stuff *myself*) 03:10:57 heh, how far along are you? 03:11:29 I've figured out a bunch of physics algorithms on paper. 03:11:48 And I'm messing around with drawing a dot that moves in SDL. (yay). 03:12:06 So, not very far at all. 03:12:10 hehe 03:12:15 thats allright do try to finish it 03:12:27 i'd love to play around with even a half finished versions 03:13:46 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:15:29 Aargh! What is the order of operands on intel at&t assembly syntax? 03:16:14 -!- wasabi________ [n=wasabi@ntoska150189.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:17:02 -!- maodun [n=stopgo@c-67-180-49-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:17:16 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:17:25 rtoym: op src,dest 03:17:43 I can't seem to find a project mailing list on lispbuilder-sdl's google code page? 03:17:57 fe[nl]ix: Ah, thanks. I can never remember 03:18:07 rtoym: yeah, because it's backward. :) 03:18:50 hefner: Heh. After all the sparc assembly I've done, you'd think I'd just assume src,dest. :-) 03:20:35 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 03:26:33 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:26:45 -!- division-bell` [n=Kenan@88.238.43.242] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:26:47 too bad funcall isn't placed automatically when the first element in a function application is a list 03:30:40 Woo. Shot email off the the lispbuilder-sdl list. 03:31:54 division-bell [n=Kenan@88.238.43.242] has joined #lisp 03:33:40 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-20.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 03:35:12 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:36:26 Good morning. 03:37:58 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-20.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 03:38:45 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 03:40:45 jestocost [n=cmell@d288be-124.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:42:48 -!- crod [n=cmell@d288be-124.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:51:13 -!- dreish [n=dreish@minus.dreish.org] has quit [] 03:54:35 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:54:39 I would like to use tramp in windows with tools from putty, anyone can help? 03:58:02 why not cygwin tools? 03:59:54 leo2007: you realize the semantic ambiguity of your question makes it sound very funny, right? 04:01:35 *rtoym* has used tramp, but not on windows. 04:02:54 HET2: what do you mean? 04:03:16 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1B32.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:03:36 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279442397.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 04:03:43 benny [n=benny@i577A1B32.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:05:09 slacking12 [n=slacking@ip68-101-220-87.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:02 hey everyone... sorry, really quick newbish question. how do you setup emacs's startup to automatically load a certain library when starting an environment like slime? or does one require a separate slime startup config file? 04:06:14 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:06:25 slacking12: There was something like (eval-when-... 04:06:55 unfortunately windows doesn't have XFS driver, so I can't tell you exactly what it was 04:07:17 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:07:35 mogunus: Did you see my reply to your key-repeat question on the mailing list? 04:07:42 slacking12: (eval-after-load 'slime
) 04:07:51 and another question... which regex flavor do people usually use in common lisp 04:07:54 pregexp? 04:07:55 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:08:04 oh, thanks fe[nl]ix 04:09:34 mognus: enable-key-repeat only works if you call it after SDL is initialized. 04:09:34 I'm used to pcre's but is there one that tends to work more harmoniously with common lisp? Or is there a generally preferred engine/flavor? 04:09:38 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:09:44 just curious, cause I use regexes quite a bit 04:10:07 cl-ppcre , slacking12 04:10:21 http://www.weitz.de/cl-ppcre/ 04:10:30 now how does asdf work? is something else necessary to use to be able to load that 04:10:41 I'm currently using slime with clisp as my interpreter 04:11:50 hum, "..as my implementation of common lisp" or just "..as my implementation" (i.e., most common lisps are compiled) 04:12:05 slacking12: asdf is something you load into your lisp to load other stuff more easily 04:12:11 i'm not sure how asdf works with clisp .. it's included with sbcl though 04:12:15 slacking12: asdf manages compilation and loading of dependencies 04:12:22 slacking12: Do you have any particular reason for using CLISP as opposed to SBCL? I am asking because most people here use SBCL, so you probably get better answers to questions here if that's what you use. 04:12:23 (not installation though) 04:12:55 hmm, no, I didn't have any particular reason. I just saw clisp mentioned in a couple tutorials and I had it installed already on my distro 04:13:03 any reason not to use clisp? 04:13:09 kpreid: thanks 04:13:21 slacking12: just what I said above. 04:13:23 slacking12: clisp is slow. 04:13:44 okay, I didn't realize. I'll install sbcl then. thanks for the advice all 04:14:09 I like keeping clisp around, though :) 04:14:10 clisp is fine. So is sbcl. 04:15:25 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit ["Leaving..."] 04:15:26 are there any other major differences than speed and general support? 04:15:35 other than* 04:15:36 sbcl has threads .. clisp does not 04:15:54 you mean for SMP? 04:16:11 nope, in general 04:16:37 what's the distinction? 04:16:57 what are the advantages of threading outside of having multiple processing cores? 04:17:27 slacking12: sbcl is a lot stricter when it comes to running Lisp code. It returns more useful warnings and error information as well. 04:17:32 slacking12: The nice thing about clisp is that it does JIT compilation. That means it's pretty nice for generating code on the fly quickly (this is apparently the reason PG used clisp for viaweb) 04:17:49 uhm .. doing non-blocking io etc. is way harder than using threads now and then .. i'd say it's "impossible" in some cases 04:17:50 sbcl compiles pretty fast machine code... which means it takes a while to compile. 04:17:50 clisp does JIT? Since when? 04:18:06 JIT? 04:18:14 rtoym: since a little while ago. I don't have a timeline handy :P 04:18:26 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:18:40 slacking12: just-in-time compilation. It's a technique used by a lot of bytecode-using languages to generate fast code in their VMs 04:18:53 gotcha. thanks 04:19:21 rtoym: IIRC since 2.45, but it's quite buggy 04:19:27 sykopomp: I thought it wasn't ready yet. 04:19:48 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/188acc89e1d90cbe?hl=en 04:20:23 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["restart Emacs OS"] 04:20:36 just wondering, what tutorials have people found the most helpful/efficient. I have a fair decent amount of programming experience but pretty new to lisp. Looking at several right now "practical common lisp", "on lisp", etc. But I'm curious what people here have found as especially helpful 04:20:53 for a relative lisp/programming newbie, that is 04:20:57 yeah, practical common lisp 04:21:02 PCL is the best up-to-date intro to lisp for someone with experience. 04:21:03 pcl is good 04:21:09 okay, cool 04:21:24 slacking12: On Lisp is more about some advanced topics, particularly involving the metaprogramming capabilities of Lisp. 04:21:32 yeah, it seems like an awesome introduction. Throws you really quickly into making some very useful programs 04:21:39 (assuming here you call lisp macros and syntax manipulation 'metaprogramming', which I do) 04:38:33 joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 04:42:09 fe[nl]ix: I tried to load asdf through emacs at startup for example, with: (eval-after-load 'slime (require 'asdf)) And I'm getting an error. Am I doing something wrong here? 04:42:13 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:46:39 slacking12: It appears that you're trying to load asdf into emacs. 04:47:31 hahahahhaha 04:47:38 yeah, sorry, I figured I was doing something stupid. how to I specify to emacs that I want to load asdf into sbcl at startup 04:47:55 how do* I, rather 04:48:11 slacking12: You don't, it's already there. 04:48:56 okay, I was just reading on cliki: "If you have SBCL, OpenMCL, ECL or ACL, it's bundled and you need only (require 'asdf). If you have Debian or Gentoo and the Common Lisp Controller installed, you also already have it. Otherwise you can find it in the Sourceforge cCLan CVS repository: " and thought I needed to explicitly load it 04:49:13 In the *slime-repl sbcl* buffer try (member :asdf *features*), it should be there. 04:49:25 but for future reference, is there a way to load something through slime (into sbcl) with emacs startup file? 04:49:30 or is that now how it's done 04:49:37 ok 04:50:11 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:50:16 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:50:19 it is indeed there, thanks tmh. 04:50:24 you can load things from .sbclrc if you like 04:50:29 slacking12: I'm not sure about that. If I want something loaded in sbcl initially, I put it in the .sbclrc file 04:50:43 this makes sense 04:50:43 Someone asked me but I've missed it?? 04:50:46 Good morning. 04:51:11 of course, asdf isn't loaded yet when .sbclrc runs, so you'll have to remember to put a (require :asdf) first if you do that 04:51:47 slacking12: But, that raises an interesting idea, have something loading initially when you invoke slime regardless of the common lisp backend. I'd have to dig through the slime manual to figure that out. 04:52:39 hefner: thanks for the tip 04:53:10 tmh: well I'm glad my naive question led to at least some interesting consideration :P 04:54:11 and thanks again for the help. I'm not at all opposed to reading the f**** manual, but it's nice to be able to get some immediate/informed response outside the documentation every once in a while 04:54:28 plus the "human interaction" is always a refreshing break ;) 04:55:44 slacking12: "human interaction"? Sorry, I should have been up-front. I'm an AI that got loose and interacts on IRC in an attempt to study humans. 04:56:59 haha, damn it. Well, I personally welcome our AI IRC bot overlords 04:57:09 GO game anyone? 04:58:18 only if you spot him 13 stones 04:58:42 haha, that's right, is that the current record? 04:58:49 I saw something about that on slashdot 04:58:54 no, 9 04:59:13 I was just calling tmh a knucklehead jokingly 05:00:06 -!- Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 05:00:07 Adamant: I still haven't learned humor. 05:00:24 it's not all that funny 05:00:31 tmh: please tell ASau about logs :) 05:00:32 gotcha... I was still operating under the assumption that tmh was a very sophisticated bot, but lacking the resources of having hundreds of processing cores at his/her/its disposal 05:00:48 like the mighty program that "rivaled" the human opponent 05:01:31 so you'd still be 'not quite human' status 05:01:38 ASau: What rollds downs stairs alone or in pairs and over your neighbor's dog? 05:01:40 hmm, strangely that rings a bell 05:01:54 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178011193.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:02:01 ASau: What's great for a snack, and fits on your back? Its log, log, log. 05:02:06 just make sure you learn why humans cry before you melt my face with your plasma rifle in da fourty watt range 05:02:39 psh... plasma guns... aren't you up on the latest rage? 05:02:39 http://xkcd.com/517/ 05:02:41 ? 05:03:52 It's log, it's log, it's better than bad, it's good. 05:03:54 ASau: You asked a question that could be answered by lookin at the logs, and tmh is pretending to be a bot, so I submitted a minion-like request to him. I admit it's not that funny. 05:04:21 *beach* goes to do some (more) useful work instead. 05:05:06 See, I don't get humor. 05:05:15 heh 05:05:21 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:08:25 sorry, another dumb question... but I'm finding that the documentation for ppcre assumes you know how to do it. How do I load the ppcre through asdf 05:08:34 what's an example asdf load command? 05:09:02 (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :cl-ppcre) 05:09:06 (I assume) 05:09:12 slacking12: Are you comfortable using the emacs info help system? 05:09:24 C-h i 05:09:26 yeah 05:09:27 *sykopomp* really wants to adopt mudballs. 05:09:30 to a certain extent 05:09:42 If you have install slime in a standard way, there should be a slime info entry. 05:10:00 sykopomp: what's stopping you? 05:10:10 slacking12: It has a pretty good introduction to setting up you're ASDF system and using it. 05:10:14 -!- froog [n=user@81-234-149-249-no94.tbcn.telia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:10:17 s/you're/your/ 05:10:26 hmm, damn, I don't have it in there 05:10:31 beach: a bigger audience (for full adoption, that is. I'll just write both systems for now) 05:10:45 I just extracted slime and loaded the file into my emacs startup file 05:10:50 is that not "standard"? 05:10:56 sykopomp: can you give me a short (a few lines) summary of the advantages? 05:11:07 loaded the *directory, rather 05:11:31 slacking12: yes and no, standard probably in how most people do it, not standard as far as making emacs aware of the info files. 05:11:41 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-101-69.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:11:59 how do I ensure that the documentation is loaded? 05:12:31 beach: it seems simpler, it allows for versioning, it doesn't require that you go hunting for GPG keys or risk getting screwed over by a malicious wiki user (or so it seems), and there was just a post on the mailing list saying that someone implemented version-control-fetching as well. 05:12:51 beach: so you can have multiple versions of a library installed, or require particular versions. Including source control. 05:13:11 sykopomp: OK, thanks. 05:14:01 slacking12: sorry, when I said slime, I meant ASDF. ASDF also has a good info page for emacs. In the meantime, look at http://constantly.at/lisp/asdf/ and http://common-lisp.net/~mmommer/asdf-howto.shtml 05:14:23 okay, thanks 05:15:00 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.206.234] has joined #lisp 05:17:51 S1100100` [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 05:17:51 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:21:17 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:25:19 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:25:25 http://www.aegisub.net/2008/12/if-programming-languages-were-religions.html 05:25:35 'If'? 05:25:44 Heretic 05:25:47 where's lisp? 05:25:55 oh, there it is 05:27:35 that list is way off. 05:28:00 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:04 Yeah, I don't see Intercal. 05:28:15 APL and Scientology? 05:28:19 ;) 05:28:48 Java would be mainline Protestant/Catholic Christianity 05:29:35 C is not something I would associate with Judaism in that the whole point is there aren't enough rules 05:29:38 What about Zoasterism? 05:29:51 COBOL? COBOL isn't remotely dead. 05:29:52 some language that's slowly dying out 05:30:02 sykopomp: it mostly is 05:30:14 Adamant: that's not what the very well-paying and active COBOL job market says. 05:30:21 it's limited to a very small scope where it's undead 05:30:29 Adamant: there's a ton of COBOL code out there, and plenty of people willing to pay you to maintain it. 05:30:47 great success! 05:30:51 sykopomp: nobody writes new COBOL unless they have already sunk money into COBOL 05:31:13 my litle green antenna now moves smoothly 05:31:13 mogunus: you read the ML post, then? (and the messages here)? 05:31:17 Hmm, that sounds like a challenge. COBOL web server anyone? 05:31:23 mogunus: dude! fork year. 05:31:31 *sykopomp* is playing with mudballs now. Is in heaven. 05:31:36 COBOL On Cogs 05:31:43 lispbuilder-sdl had an unocumented order deendence. you have to call enable-key-repeat after sdl:window. 05:31:44 *tmh* chuckles 05:31:55 mogunus: yes 05:31:56 sykopomp: what ML post? 05:32:12 mogunus: the reply to yours, which balooga came in here to remind you of :P 05:32:39 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.131.141] has joined #lisp 05:32:45 sykopomp: oh, go me. 05:32:52 grr, sorry... one more thing. I linked my cl-ppcre.asd file to my asdf load dir. and then typed: "(asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'cl-ppcre)" 05:33:01 and it seemed to load, but I'm not seeing the ppcre functions 05:33:07 slacking12: are you using sbcl? 05:33:10 yes 05:33:11 sykopomp: I've been watching the mailing list like a hawk, but totally ignoring #lisp 05:33:18 (cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all .... ) 05:33:31 nm, I'm an idiot 05:33:37 thanks 05:33:38 lol 05:33:45 slacking12: if you're not inside the package of the app you loaded, you have to either do (in-package "packagename") or prepend the function with the package name. 05:36:06 sykopomp: thanks 05:36:06 slacking12: also, in SBCL, you can do (require 'packagename), instead of asdf:operate .. 05:36:06 lastly, I highly encourage you to check out http://mudballs.com/ <-- 05:36:06 ;) 05:36:06 oh cool 05:36:07 (or not. Stick to the easy stuff, I guess) 05:36:23 lol, thanks. I'll def. check it out. I'm just trying to get up and running properly for the time being, so I can keep plugging away at the basics 05:36:51 (religion) The Lisp comparison is nice, though. 05:36:59 sykopomp: so what's the best way to load that info in automatically? sbcl startup file? 05:37:53 slacking12: put this in your .sbclrc: (require 'asdf) (require 'packagename) .. 05:38:01 slacking12: I highly recommend working through Practical Common Lisp. Randomly stabbing in the dark is not an efficient method of learning a language. 05:38:02 okay, cool, thanks 05:38:06 although I wouldn't recommend you constantly load everything. Just load stuff on demand for the packages you need. 05:38:28 slacking12: and yes. Go through PCL first. You won't get anywhere by attacking the darkness. 05:38:33 tmh: I am going through PCL... I just wanted to load the regex library, and ran into a couple hurdles 05:38:44 I'm not running around aimlessly 05:38:51 sykopomp: Or, to really muddy the water, dump a custom core with all of the stuff you initially load. 05:40:56 -!- slacking12 [n=slacking@ip68-101-220-87.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:40:58 *sykopomp* complains about having to use three different build system build and installation systems. 05:41:08 >:( 05:42:28 *Quadrescence* sighssssssss 05:42:43 I need to figure out EVAL 05:43:07 Figure out? 05:43:14 huh? what's there to figure out? 05:43:19 it evaluates what you give it. 05:43:31 but remember that if you use eval in the REPL, you're actually evaluating something -twice- 05:43:40 -!- division-bell [n=Kenan@88.238.43.242] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:43:41 so (eval 'foo) is the same as typing plain foo 05:44:57 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:50:21 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:32 hello 05:50:40 hello 05:52:09 ... fun times, cods and cads. 05:52:12 can you guys suggest a book or article which gives a precise introduction to lisp like languages and some of the unique concepts associated with them, such as S-expressions, the eval function, quoting expressions, macros and the like? 05:52:19 Greetings! 05:52:46 cads: the r4rs or r5rs are precise and short. 05:53:18 *tmh* looks for Google 05:53:35 does that approach lisp systems in general? 05:53:59 i'd like to see a bit of how they're designed and axiomatized 05:54:27 which could bring me to mccarthy's early papers 05:55:02 but there are a lot of features in a modern lisp which they hadn't dreamt up yet 05:55:27 cads: cltl2, the scheme specs, the hyperspec, lisp 1.5, etc 05:55:49 truly? 05:56:20 i shall look some of the specs up then 05:56:26 thanks for the suggestions 05:56:29 np 05:56:31 glhf 05:56:53 good luck hoe-fetching? 05:57:38 have fun 06:00:05 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 06:09:49 minion: tell cads about LiSP. 06:09:49 cads: please see LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 06:11:33 that sounds great 06:12:04 ASau` [n=user@host95-231-msk.microtest.ru] has joined #lisp 06:12:11 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:15 i am also looking into some of mccarthy's papers, if only for historical interest 06:13:02 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:13:56 it's interesting to hear that lisp was initially intended to have syntax but that it was never implemented when people grew used to the benefits of S-exps 06:14:02 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:18:49 holly smoke 06:19:12 sykopomp: you know how you wanted a prototype based language with multiple dispatch? 06:19:17 dude, SLATE! 06:19:23 i completely forgot about it 06:19:42 written by a lisper no less. the author is "water", he hangs out around here 06:20:02 fusss: yeah, I've heard about slate. 06:20:27 prototype based with multiple dispatch. yesterday i said there was no such beast. 06:20:39 open mouth insert foot, and such 06:20:46 I thought I told you there was one, but I'd forgotten slate was the name of it :P 06:21:10 slate was pretty much born here, in this chan 06:21:32 I remember water and Zhivago taking the piss late a night about it, circa 2003 IIRC 06:22:53 it looks kinda like smalltalk. Huh. 06:24:00 -!- hjpark [n=user@61.109.28.117] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:24:31 it _is_ a smalltalk "dialect". brian is an STer 06:31:01 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:31:17 but i recommend you avoid using languages designed by friends and acquaintances; it makes ranting about them harder. 06:32:15 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.131.141] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:32:43 I'd rather use lisp, too <_< 06:32:47 "i just fucking spent the last hour chasing this stupid see pluh... OH! Bjarne! heyyy, what's going on. How is the, uhhh, Bell Labing coming?" 06:32:53 That's why that comparison between languages and religions is so spot-on about Lisp. It's not really a language in the traditional view. 06:32:58 but I kinda wanna look into how they did multiple dispatch :) 06:33:01 fusss: IIUC, there's still some space leaks in the fundamental dispatch scheme. 06:33:33 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.131.141] has joined #lisp 06:34:35 sykopomp: everything is simpler on paper; find your neighborhood citeseer office and make use of it. reading slate sources will dumbfuse you, imo. 06:36:19 pkhuong: wasn't it a PhD project? if YUC and explain it to him in private, you might just get a mention in a nice dissert :-P 06:38:32 cads, check out HOPL-Uncut.pdf, aka The Evolution of Lisp by Steele et al. It'll give you some more background. Also, there's an essay by Paul Graham on some of the main Lisp concepts. 06:38:46 (or was that HOPL2-Uncut.pdf ?) 06:38:59 cadr 06:39:08 or just SECOND :-P 06:39:28 tic: good call, it's on http://www.dreamsongs.com/ 06:39:47 tmh, ah, of course. along with everything else that is interesting! 06:40:25 fusss: no, he mentions it in his papers; i just don't think he mentions any potential solution. 06:40:30 (e.g. "Technical Issues on the Separation of Function and Value Cells" regarding Lisp-N vs Lisp-(N+1)'s) 06:42:04 cads: if you can spare a few years, the two lisp implementation lineages I recommend are Scott Fahlman's Lisps (Spice, CMUCL, Dylan) and everything related to the T project (Orbit, OakLisp.) 06:43:49 Maclisp is supposed to be the big dog of Lisp lineage, since it influenced so many other dialects and pioneered optimization techniques. but at the heart of it, the maclisp hackers were just resident techies for side projects; Macsyma, AI vision and other stuff on one machine at MIT :-P T and Spice were designed from the ground up for general purpose performance. 06:45:17 fusss: don't forget Multics Emacs. 06:45:32 of course not :-D 06:47:00 so many dialects 06:47:36 cads: also, feel free to read everything by Henry Baker (even the actor model stuff which I personally ignored.) Baker is the Boehm + Wilson of Lisp. 06:48:29 (ignoring the fact he is an investment banker now, or something) 06:48:48 beach: how did your thing in paris go? 06:49:14 fusss: maybe not anymore! 06:49:22 slyrus_: very well, actually! 06:49:33 ah, good to hear that! 06:49:39 pkhuong: no? moved up the suit scale? 06:49:51 fusss: I was more thinking of the economic situation and all that. 06:49:57 awww 06:51:05 vtl [n=user@r10ni46.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 06:54:21 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:56:14 I wish The Evolution of Lisp would be finished. 06:56:25 It's really an amazing paper, one of the most interesting I've read. 06:57:55 i thought the torch was passed: final chapter, lisp on j2ee ;-) 06:58:13 I don't understand 06:58:39 what do you guys think about clojure/. 06:58:40 ? 06:58:48 silly stab at clojure, from a lisp50 write up "the torch has been passed". 06:59:10 fusss, oh, yeah. I forgot about that. Heh. 06:59:21 clojure is a good lisp dialect for the java platform 06:59:24 fusss, I was more talking about the stuff before the final chapter, though, where some details were omitted. 06:59:54 fusss, would you say better than that trigger-happy furry animal? 07:00:11 qual? 07:00:17 awwww 07:00:21 fusss, think it will see happy hackers using it, or will it remain yet another toy lisp? 07:01:00 cads: hard to say, it has many things going on for it, but since 2002 people have jumped on GOO, Arc and what have you 07:01:07 cads: it has a nice interface to java. That makes it much less of a toy than most language implementations. 07:01:19 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:01:41 tonight CLISP saved my rear end. as far as i'm concerned, CLISP is the best Lisp to make FileMaker talk with MySQL across a network. right tool and such. 07:02:37 -!- NoorDextor [n=Game450@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:02:40 but there is no excuse for gratuitous disregard for established standards, imo. 07:04:02 Which ones? 07:04:17 minion: hyperspec? 07:04:17 hyperspec: The Common Lisp HyperSpec can be found at http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/ - or go to the contents at http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Front/Contents.htm 07:04:31 minion: rsr6 07:04:31 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``rsr6''. 07:04:48 haha 07:04:56 fusss: CLISP was for a long time the only working lisp on unix systems. 07:05:17 And it stays one until stable ECL is released. 07:05:22 r6rs, that is. 07:05:47 HyperSpec reference doesn't help it. 07:06:58 -!- vtl [n=user@r10ni46.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:08:00 i wonder why QNX engineers kept the posix api? they could've rolled their own and "improved" unix. hmmmm. 07:09:13 they have a realtime kernel that runs on tiny devices, surely, that gives them enough leverage to reinvent that category and make things "better" 07:09:22 Ragnaroek2 [i=54a67d9f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2f8525d6f33e574a] has joined #lisp 07:10:49 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:13:17 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:22 hmmm, i think i have accidentally been learning ruby through CLL .. 07:13:29 *cads* wonders, are real time operating systems applicable for use as a general purpose os on say a desktop computer? 07:13:59 Yes. 07:14:12 fusss: Quite possibly because many potential clients (say, for example, the US Military) either require or give preference to devices that are posix-compliant. 07:14:31 cads: you only will find that all operations become slower. 07:14:41 cads: In general, hard real-time requirements and general purpose requirements are antithetical. 07:14:53 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-019-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:38 aja: there's no "soft" real time. 07:15:47 aja: the time is either real or not. 07:16:02 aja: you don't think it was for easy adoption? who wants to invest time into something that might as well be a fad, regardless of elegance? 07:16:07 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:16:40 ASau`: The term "soft real time" is often used for requirements that are statistically described: "Must respond within x, y% of the time" 07:16:59 So such a system is better able to keep tabs of resources and guarantee that certain processes always recieve enough, at the cost of having lower overall utilization of the potential? 07:18:01 fusss: I don't know what was in their heads. But often posix compliance is added not for an engineering reason, but for a marketing one, especially in industries where your RFP response is scored on a grid with a bunch of "desireable features" that may or may not actually be of value. 07:18:08 cads: realtime-ness is more about guarantees than even resource usage. 07:18:19 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:18:29 aja: just an added benefit then 07:18:38 aja: it doesn't either differ from regular case or real time ("must respond within x*100/y time"). 07:18:54 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:19:04 Kind of. 07:19:19 -!- Ragnaroek2 [i=54a67d9f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2f8525d6f33e574a] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 07:19:48 aja: i have hacked both on BeOS and Atheos to know what it feels like to be an early adopter of something beautiful, just to end up being the last user and possibly a nurse keeping the "art work" on life support. 07:20:10 ASau`: I'm having difficulty parsing that. 07:20:43 mmm BeOS. 07:20:46 "Real time" means that response is guaranteed in certain pre-defined time. 07:20:49 fusss: Heh. I have an Apple IIe sitting right next to me here. :-) 07:20:53 fusss: I think I understand what they did! I think I can actually implement this pretty easily as a quick and dirty prototype :D 07:21:30 You either have this property or not. 07:21:52 "Send 3 packets in a second" is still real time. 07:22:00 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:15 could real time be ensure that the windows manager never becomes unresponsive, or to guarantee that audio playback continues regardless of system load or instability in other parts of the system? 07:22:16 It differs from "send one packet in 1/3 second". 07:22:22 Still it is real time. 07:22:27 ASau`: That's what it means to you, and I'm not saying you're wrong. This is a semantic argument, and therefore not particularly useful. However, the terms "soft real time" and "hard real time" are in common usage, and refer to how strict the response characteristics are. Wikipedia seems to agree with me. 07:22:31 There's only one real time. 07:22:42 asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-71-178-243-118.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:51 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:22:58 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 07:23:08 aja: yes, it is in common usage. 07:23:39 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:24:11 I always figured that the distinction between soft and hard is whether the realtime aspects are implemented at a hard level in circuitry logic, or if it's just approximated in software 07:25:25 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:25:41 aja: we have other deceiving terms out there, plenty of them. 07:26:28 cads: actually, no. 07:27:10 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@d288be-124.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:27:15 for example my mp3 player program is realtime because it's required to play back a stream of audio in time and usually has enough resources to meet that goal, but it doesn't have a hardware pipeline clocked to decode the audio precisely in time regardless of what the rest of the system is doing 07:27:19 jestocost [n=cmell@d288be-124.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:27:26 cads: real-time software is to perform error recovery or error preventing steps when it violates time constraints. 07:27:37 ASau`: Of course. We're using a human language here, and we're using jargon. Therefore, the term's precise meaning is somewhat contextual and speaker-bound. That doesn't change the fact that, despite your assertion that its misleading, any embedded designer would be expected to know and use the term. 07:28:33 aja: there're plenty of other things meaningful to embedded designer. 07:28:52 aja: even "real-time system" doesn't mean much. 07:28:54 yes, please encode all definitions in a formal logic ;D 07:29:06 ASau`: I'm curious: What in anything I have said implies that I believe that embedded designers only know one term? 07:29:47 aja: you won't believe it, but many embedded designers don't even know the term. 07:29:55 aja: they know what time constraints are. 07:31:21 It is like "blue". 07:31:40 English have only one kind of color, some other nations have more than one. 07:32:42 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-34.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 07:33:18 *cads* wonders about the different kinds of realtime constraints that an average rtos provides, and how they're expressed by the programmer 07:33:32 ASau`: Yes, but I would expect an English speaker to both know the word "blue" and be able to consistently use it. I have similar requirements for most professions and their professionals' use of the associated jargon. Anyway, this is both OT and semantic, so it's probably annoying to our channel mates. I'm happy to drop it 07:33:51 it would be interesting to play around with a mock embedded system 07:34:52 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-019-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Bye bye"] 07:35:16 I'm working on embedded system, which was believed to be able satisfy RT constraints by using best-throughput approach. 07:36:09 It fails from time to time, and I'm thinking about rewriting parts in more RT way. 07:36:30 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has joined #lisp 07:36:56 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:12 hey, Iv'e just installed steel bank CL, along with SLIME mode for emacs... is sbcl a suitable implementation for learning and screwing around? 07:38:37 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:40:39 yes 07:41:48 cads: yes 07:43:03 loz [i=loz@r125-63-178-168.cpe.unwired.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:46:21 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 07:46:48 cads: maybe I won't recall everything just off the top of my head, 07:47:17 cads: I can tell you what RTOS are to provide, which conventional systems lack. 07:47:40 E.g. POSIX system.s 07:47:58 First of all, POSIX lacks timers. 07:48:00 cads: +1 for sbcl. it's what most people here use and you can get help with it anytime (also, most sbcl maintainers are here ;-) 07:48:26 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:48:41 Not that it lacks timers at all, but the number is insufficient (3). 07:50:54 First thing to do is to reinvent them. 07:51:12 Though all you need might be "get this done in given time", 07:51:37 which is essentially catch-throw block. 07:53:32 -!- Ashy [n=User@220.157.86.160] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:56:39 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-235.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:57:02 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 08:11:12 mulligan [n=user@75-77.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 08:11:50 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@d288be-124.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:13:24 ASau, what about gettimeofday() ? 08:13:35 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:14:43 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:14:49 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:52 ASau, also, I think what is usually called "hard real-time" equals what you call "real-time"... for example, mp3 playback is hard real-time, because you must satisfy certain time constraints (e..g fill up the buffer quickly enough), and if this doesnt happen you need to handle this error in some way 08:16:58 dv_: gettimeofday isn't timer. 08:17:06 you cant just ignore this case, 08:17:40 unlike in, say, realtime 3d rendering, where a sudden framedrop is undesirable, but doesnt break anything 08:19:31 dv_: like I said above "send 3 packets in a second" is still real time. 08:19:41 do you guys know of a purely functional (side-effect free), minimalist dialect of the lisp? 08:19:55 cads, scheme 08:20:00 dv_: that you can succede sending 5 ones, fine with you. 08:20:14 scheme isn't purely functional 08:20:17 ASau, I mean timers based on gettimeofday() 08:20:18 ah, the scheme.. thought it could do side-effects thogh 08:20:26 cads, just dont to them :) 08:20:29 cads: there's no reason to have no side effects. 08:20:30 -to +do 08:20:41 its more intuitive to code purely functional in scheme anyway 08:21:06 dv_: yes, you can reinvent timers basing on gettimeofday and threads. 08:21:14 dv_: it is still inconvenient. 08:21:35 ASau, yes, but gettimeofday() has a sufficient resolution, right? 08:21:46 It isn't timer still. 08:21:56 because the only time functions that are even more precise live in kernel space IIRC. 08:21:59 dv_: hard real time gives a guarantee that the process will be done in time. Soft real-time gives an indication that it will probably be done in time. Hard real-time is virtually nonexistent in anything with a true operating system. 08:22:38 madnificent, as said, with sound you must guarantee it. violating it is a very noticeable error 08:22:38 dv_: I don't think mp3 playback is considered hard real-time; it doesn't really matter if there are a few glitches in the sound. 08:22:43 madnificent: And "soft real-time" isn't real time at all. 08:23:12 madnificent, also, sound capturing must be hard realtime, otherwise the captured data will be erroneous 08:23:18 dv_: it is not guaranteed in modern systems ;-) It is tried to do it :) 08:23:21 ineiros: oh, yeah, where "few" becomes "too much"? 08:23:52 ineiros, the only tolerable amount of glitches is zero 08:24:00 Maybe I should buy a book on compiler design/compiler theory 08:24:01 :< 08:24:04 madnificent: You probably want to modify "modern" to "general purpose" or "multi-tasking" 08:24:20 aja: accepted 08:24:58 ASau, no side-effects makes the mathematician part of me happier and more willing to work out proofs 08:25:04 madnificent, also I am not talking about sound on a PC in particular 08:25:16 madnificent, think of portable mp3 players, PVRs, cameras 08:25:17 jestocost [n=cmell@d288be-124.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:25:18 scheme is not side-effect free 08:25:22 madnificent: Although, it is interesting to note that hard real time for at least one process is possible for a multi-tasking operating system running on multiple cores. 08:25:31 dv_ mp3 playback is definaely not hard realtime 08:25:35 aja: that is true 08:25:46 not even soft realtime i'd say 08:25:52 Again: THERE'S ONLY ONE REAL TIME. 08:25:56 you have buffers etc 08:25:57 xristos, and why is that 08:26:07 xristos, you have a certain time constraint you must meet 08:26:19 which is the duration of the playback of the buffer(s) 08:26:20 yes but the time constraint is so large it doesnt come into play 08:26:23 dv_: The difference between soft and hard real-time in my opinion is that in hard real-time, if you fail to do something by the deadline, you've failed; there's no reason to continue. In soft real-time, like mp3 playback, I don't expect my player to stop the playback if it fails to fill the buffer in time once in 10 hours. 08:26:42 ASau`: AGAIN, that is your usage of the term, which is by no means universal, or even most common. 08:26:45 hard realtime is usually applied to events where failure is catastrophic 08:26:49 xristos, first, buffers cannot be large on small mp3 players. second, hard realtime does not automatically mean very fast 08:27:12 dv_ you dont need guarantees to play an mp3 08:27:20 yes you do 08:27:21 win98 managed to do it just fine 08:27:29 ineiros: no, hard real time means: provable to work :) 08:27:30 ineiros: so, if you fail to send warning in time, you shouldn't raise alarm and start water pumps? 08:27:32 otherwise the output will be *wrong* 08:27:44 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-249-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:46 xristos: Not necessarily, but it does apply to systems where any divergence from the performance spec (at all) is considered a failure of the system. 08:27:46 you can't just ignore stutter 08:27:57 ineiros: nice idea. 08:27:57 can't ignore lisp either 08:28:00 I like that. 08:28:14 ASau`: Of course you should still send the warning, but the system has failed. 08:28:45 g'day 08:29:07 the hard realtime definition I know and have been hearing all the time is that a hard realtime process MUST meet certain time conditions, 08:29:07 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:29:14 and failure to do so equals an error in the system 08:29:16 -!- knobo [n=user@ti100710a080-3181.bb.online.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:29:19 Soulmann [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 08:29:32 ineiros: Well, what to do in case of failure is implementation-specifice. Stopping is one of many alternatives. 08:29:39 dv_: Yes. And a glitch in mp3 playback can hardly be considered an error in most cases. 08:29:40 ineiros: apply this to audio player, which is expected to operate at least at 44100/4 Hz. 08:30:06 in the soft real-time case (or "not-real-time" for ASau ) failure to meet that constraint is undesirable, but not an error 08:30:07 ineiros: not that I'm fond of that quality... 08:30:16 ASau`: The difference is "expected" as opposed to "required". 08:30:18 ineiros, it IS considered an error 08:30:30 aja: it is still the error. 08:30:44 What on earth. 08:30:52 Device may operate with repeating error, but it is still one. 08:31:09 ineiros, ok, one glitch at, say, startup *may* not be a big deal, but its still an error 08:31:15 Hey RT is interesting stuff :) 08:31:27 ASau`: You're conflating "error" with "failure". 08:31:29 and failure to fill the buffers at runtime usually does not happen once, but many times 08:31:51 Not for audio players, but for metal working machines. Now we're talking (: 08:31:58 gdmfsob [n=gdmfsob@92.112.48.185] has joined #lisp 08:32:21 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:32:34 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:32:38 schme: I like using the "airbag actuator" versus "video playback" problems to distinguish hard from soft requirements. 08:32:54 I think this is not formal enough 08:32:57 I have no idea about the difference. 08:33:15 also, video playback is not a good comparison, because it is a mixed bag 08:33:15 aja: average (or below average) listener may use audio player, which operates with errors. 08:33:27 aja: it doesn't mean it generally fails. 08:33:33 the A/V sync does not tolerate any timing errors 08:33:34 is it me or is cmucl is just ONE binary now? no core? 08:33:39 For me real time is what say a CNC machine of some sort would have. And ya, the actual controller for it has pretty much no OS at all (: 08:33:53 Not sure how it would be interesting with real time for video (: 08:34:13 Buuut... I'll stay out of this. 08:34:15 but the actual video stuff can be played back without tight time constraints, e.g. framedrops are tolerable 08:34:19 ASau`: The distinction is that if the audio player has errors (say, drops frames), it has an error. This is undesireable, but the program has not failed. 08:34:45 aja: the program has failed. 08:34:48 dv_ the A/V sync of course tolerates many timing errors 08:34:49 aja, yes it has 08:34:54 It doesn't reach expected quality. 08:34:56 they just happen to be so small that you cant pereive them 08:35:00 *perceive 08:35:09 xristos, actually it doesnt ... the code has to correct it all the time 08:35:10 Again, device may continue to operate with errors. 08:35:18 It doesn't mean it hasn't failed to operate. 08:35:22 and it won't ruin the .avi :) 08:35:23 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.206.234] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 08:35:27 xristos, otherwise A/V sync errors become visible quickly 08:35:34 A/V sync usually is the hardest part of all 08:35:56 dv_ it can correct them before they compound to become obvious 08:35:57 ASau`: Sigh. You know what, I'm just going to back away. This is an entirely semantic argument, and therefore neither interesting nor useful. 08:36:05 xristos, this is what I mean 08:36:11 but that doesnt mean that errors are not there 08:36:18 xristos, they are intolerable at time of playback 08:36:19 again, cmucl is just ONE binary? hollly crap! 08:36:34 aja: consider fire alarm system. 08:36:43 aja: the temperature raises above the limit. 08:36:44 xristos, anyway, as I said, videos are not a good example 08:36:56 aja: the device failed to start water pump. 08:37:04 aja: no fire 08:37:09 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:37:17 aja: the temperature eventually drops. 08:37:20 dv_ as others said i dont believe you can satisfy hard-realtime guarantees with any sort of general purpose os 08:37:25 aja: the device continues to operate. 08:37:32 xristos, indeed you cant 08:37:33 aja: another loop. 08:37:37 soft-realtime gives you low-latency guarantees *most of the time* 08:37:41 xristos, as I said, I am not talking about PCs in particular 08:37:42 aja: still no fire. 08:37:47 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA349.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:37:56 xristos, but about portable mp3 players, PVRs, etc. 08:38:00 aja: at 100th iteration fire eventually starts. 08:38:05 Oh, yeah. 08:38:07 <_3b> is there some lisp context for the realtime discussino? 08:38:20 _3b: Well it is *in* #lisp ;) 08:38:27 This is "soft" real-fire preventing system. 08:38:34 ASau`: Please stop directing those at me. Others will believe I am participating in the conversation. 08:38:46 <_3b> schme: just wondering ifi should scroll back and look for something interesting or not :) 08:38:55 xristos, for example, PVRs must meet certain time constraints when recording something, otherwise the output is erroneous (and possibly useless) 08:39:07 _3b: I tried, but it I couldn't find anything related to nothing. 08:39:12 _3b: Probably not. It's mostly semantic arguments over what "real time" means. 08:39:16 _3b: I think we're just discussing meaning of words (: 08:39:36 -!- H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA473.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:39:38 <_3b> ok, i'll just skip it then 08:40:15 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:41:00 I think a normal pc could do hard realtime by having special realtime facilities for certain processes, no? I think linux has something like that in it newer scheduler, and I've also read about the l4 microkernel runing the linux kernel as one of its servers to run normal software, while running realtime processes seperately 08:41:27 I don't think so. 08:42:09 AFAIK, modern boards provide watchdogs. 08:42:25 cads: no, rtlinux is soft realtime 08:42:29 I abuse the linux RT patch, and poke around the cpu affinitity and what not a lot here. It's still nothing I'd use for something I really wanted to be real time. 08:42:33 Those are personal computers. 08:42:46 Good enough for audiowork though (: 08:43:53 the only thing I'd really need my computer to be realtime for would have to be pornography 08:44:09 I still get snap crackle & pop on my 2.4 ghz core2duo using my midi keyboard hooked up to a software synth. :/ 08:44:19 (w/ the RT patches) 08:44:41 tic: Maybe you need a better audiocard, and configure stuff a bit better :) Like run the soft synth on core #2 and everything else on #1 08:44:51 tic: Or yer jack settings are messed up ;) 08:45:04 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.131.141] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:45:36 schme, I've turned every knob I could find in jack! audiocard is definitely not good, Intel HDA. But sheesh. I could do this on my P2-350 BeOS box! 08:45:42 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 08:46:07 -!- S1100100` is now known as S11001001 08:46:53 tic: That's shit. :) Do you not find anything interesting in the jack output though? 08:47:04 -!- mulligan [n=user@75-77.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:47:47 *cads* would like to get a data aquisition board, and see if he could build a radar or sonar using the CPU for DSP 08:47:52 schme, usual overruns(?) with a too tight buffer size, but even when increasing it I get cracks, the same kind when you get buffer underflow to the audio card. But the CPU usage wasn't high and there were no messages in Jack. "meh" 08:48:15 tic: Maybe poke around the sample rate and frames/period 'til you stop getting overruns :) 08:48:25 tic: hmm that sounds like shit (: 08:48:56 But ya it is quite amazing how poor that shit works out of the box :) 08:50:02 schme, thing is, I *did* twist every knob I could find both in the synth and qjackctl (the frontend). oh well. maybe it was a case of reverse bit rot; perhaps it works now? 08:50:08 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:50:57 It sounds like a jack issue, indeed! Just pet qjackctl 'til it all goes away :( 08:51:07 eh. 08:51:20 Coffee :) 08:51:26 what if it's a knob problem? get one that goes to 11 08:51:32 hehehehe 08:51:42 twist it real hard! 08:51:52 danger will robinson! 08:53:27 sbcl built with nptl and my system (slackware AMD64 2.6.16) really giving me problems for a week now 08:54:23 system says it's amd64 but runs win32 binaries. installing x86-64 sbcl binary makes it barf "not a valid executable" 08:54:42 Of course amd64 runs win32. 08:54:50 jhvh1 wills it so :( 08:55:04 fusss: If it is a slackware system it is definitely not x86-64 :) 08:55:07 not win32, sheesh, i'm an diot 08:55:16 -!- cads is now known as jhvh9 08:55:21 schme: we have slamd, but this is not it 08:55:26 oh :) 08:55:34 s/win32/32bit/ 08:55:49 So does not the 32bin sbcl run? 08:56:37 nope 08:56:45 messed up. 08:56:57 it says my system is not nptl enabled. i have both nptl and class pthreads 08:57:03 building again with cmucl 08:57:13 strace giving you anything good? 08:57:34 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 08:57:48 Hmm.. I didn't think the sbcl binaries even had threading enabled :) 08:57:49 futex((nil), FUTEX_WAIT, -1, NULL) = -1 EFAULT (Bad address) is where it dies 08:58:02 You need to toss that machine out the window. 08:58:17 there was a way to test for nptl, it involved executing libc.so or glibc.so 08:58:21 huh? 08:58:45 yes, jdz, my libc executes, but i have nptl libs under tls 08:59:09 /lib/tls.disabled/ 09:00:17 the lib should print out enabled options 09:01:02 is there a happy harmonious way of automatically filling in some of the parentheses when I'm typing lisp expressions/ 09:01:30 jhvh9: For Emacs, there's paredit.el 09:01:35 -!- asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-71-178-243-118.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 09:01:46 jhvh9: filling in? you mean there are empty spots in your code and you want to fill in parenthesis? 09:02:02 that would be awful 09:02:05 gonzojive_ [n=red@ip98-169-46-222.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:57 i'll check out what paredit does 09:03:39 but what i'm thinking of is perhaps just something that'll put in a matching paren when I do an open paren 09:04:17 mostly to reduce errors on my part 09:04:45 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 09:05:53 jhvh9: That is what it does. 09:05:55 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 09:06:38 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:07:27 -!- jhvh9 is now known as cads 09:09:18 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 09:14:07 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:15:06 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:16:30 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:16:30 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:16:52 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:46 Sheboon [n=IceChat7@ip72-207-20-159.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:18:39 Error: bad register name `%rbp' 09:19:05 this PoS xen installation keeps reporting itself as AMD64, grrr 09:20:07 Learn all about niggers around the world with Chimpout's Nigger World Atlas! http://www.chimpout.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=66 Chimpout is a site open to ALL RACES except niggers. We are not White Supremacists; but we are black inferiorists. http://www.chimpout.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=66 09:20:43 ahhh 09:21:02 Learn all about niggers around the world with Chimpout'sNigger World Atlas! http://www.chimpout.com/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=66 Chimpout is a site open to ALL RACES except niggers. We are not WhiteSupremacists; but we are black inferiorists. http://www.chimpout.com/forum /forumdisplay.php?f=66 09:21:14 damn, no admins... 09:21:32 Sheboon: please die 09:21:46 no reason for hate dear friends 09:22:03 meanwhile, /ignore is your friend. 09:22:16 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 09:22:22 I'm not a decency supremacist, I'm an scumbag inferiorist 09:23:25 f=66 is his referral tag. $5 at Wendy's makes you more money 09:23:48 -!- Sheboon [n=IceChat7@ip72-207-20-159.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [K-lined] 09:23:55 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:24:06 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-8-240.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 09:25:13 vtl [n=user@nat/redhat/x-5e64defc6de8fb02] has joined #lisp 09:25:27 eevar2 [n=jalla@127.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:27:25 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:31:46 hoh 09:33:09 AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has joined #lisp 09:43:16 while /ignore your frieds is mean. 09:44:09 loz- [i=loz@r125-63-149-79.cpe.unwired.net.au] has joined #lisp 09:45:18 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 09:51:41 -!- loz [i=loz@r125-63-178-168.cpe.unwired.net.au] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:54:32 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 09:55:06 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 09:56:12 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:58:12 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:58:54 -!- loz- [i=loz@r125-63-149-79.cpe.unwired.net.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:59:34 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:03:35 Since when have niggers been a race ? 10:04:04 bob_f: no need to discuss this. go somewhere else to do that. 10:04:20 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-249-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:04:32 H4ns: Ah, I wasn't trying to start a discussion. 10:05:38 bob_f: I'm sure #almost-friday is a good place to discuss such things. 10:06:18 meingbg: Not really, it's a channel we used to use for work; I forgot to leave. :-) 10:07:50 How come #lisp gets so many spammers anyway ? It's the only channel I ever get the mass-highlighting thing in. 10:10:13 bob_f: It doesn't help spamming through tor if you're gonna say things like that. 10:16:15 oh blech. i've forgotten my gpg passphrase 10:16:46 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:17:01 hah, griping helps *always* 10:17:10 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 10:17:38 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-249-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:11 meingbg: No idea what you mean. 10:24:03 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:25:10 nikodemus: it's "secure1" 10:25:38 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 10:27:59 -!- ASau` [n=user@host95-231-msk.microtest.ru] has quit ["Reboot"] 10:28:13 m4dnificent [n=user@kotnet-151.kulnet.kuleuven.be] has joined #lisp 10:28:35 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:29:49 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:33:55 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has quit ["Changing server"] 10:37:04 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 10:39:34 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 10:39:55 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 10:40:18 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-137-217.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:40:49 G'day. 10:42:21 hello spiaggia 10:43:24 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:44:31 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 10:45:35 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:46:19 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 10:46:39 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.206.234] has joined #lisp 10:47:37 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:49:29 loz [i=loz@r125-63-149-79.cpe.unwired.net.au] has joined #lisp 10:50:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:50:58 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 10:51:39 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-176-23-190.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:51:40 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1B32.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:53:04 xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:53:57 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 10:55:51 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-177-131-217.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:51 Nocebo1 [n=shaun@CPE-124-186-227-195.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:01:44 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 11:03:43 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:06:10 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["leaving"] 11:06:29 borism__ [n=boris@195-50-197-14-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 11:06:50 is this a help only channel? 276 people and no idle conversation lol 11:07:08 <_3b> it is an on-topic channel 11:07:14 fair enough 11:07:41 except when spammers come in, then we talk about them for a while 11:08:07 e.g. last night there was a lot of chat about poorly-designed routers or something 11:08:57 haha, interesting topic. i was just curious. just started learning common lisp so i was looking for a fun lisp community to join 11:09:58 ive been fighting with Lisp in a Box. It doesnt help when you have mostly no idea of emacs, slime and allegro 11:10:42 mulligan [n=user@75-74.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 11:10:44 Nocebo1: gone through the emacs tutorial yet? 11:11:30 just finished. so ive got that part done. its a really good editor. didnt know there were such feature rich. customisable editors 11:11:48 rich,* 11:12:20 <_3b> you could try #lispcafe for a more sociable lisp channel, or lispforum.com (not that i've used either), feel free to stay here for the technical stuff though :) 11:12:31 im following the book Practical Common Lisp. I heard good things 11:12:41 kool. ill check it out :) 11:12:44 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-149-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:13:14 On-topic indeed. 11:13:41 btw, is there a reason i cant change my nickname to something other than ending in a 1? lol 11:14:09 lol 11:15:20 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:17:37 Nocebo1: What made you decide to learn Common Lisp? 11:17:38 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:18:15 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 11:18:28 elurin [n=user@85.99.69.112] has joined #lisp 11:20:05 originally my interest in AI. but that didnt really make the decision. i watched a google techtalk by the guy who wrote Practical Common Lisp and I learnt some of the advantages. Then when i decided to play around. I only got as far as doing the lisp version of a hellow world, and noticed the consistant syntax 11:20:28 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@127.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:20:43 i did 6 months of java at university. i liked it. but its a messy language 11:21:43 also, though i havent experienced an example of it myself, the macro features seem to have great potential 11:22:42 Indeed. 11:22:53 mulligan` [n=user@75-70.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 11:23:53 its underdog reputation was also an appeal admittedly. 11:24:05 I wrote "macros" in Python to generate Javascript. 11:24:11 I miss real macros at work. :-( 11:24:42 how many people here actually use lisp at work 11:24:43 ? 11:24:53 173 11:25:10 -!- loz [i=loz@r125-63-149-79.cpe.unwired.net.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:25:11 im pretty inexperienced in programming. ive never specialised in a particular language. just played around. but now i need a language to specialise in, and so far, lisp has got me :P 11:25:12 Nocebo1: do you have cltl2 and the hyperspec bookmarked? http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node1.html http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/ 11:25:18 me 11:25:41 Locklace: no i havent, ill take a look 11:25:55 Nocebo1: You will no doubt have a very long and very pleasant journey. 11:26:23 so i keep hearing :) 11:26:36 no directly. but from what people write about lisp 11:26:40 not# 11:26:45 grr 11:26:48 not* 11:27:10 (until you try to install packages) 11:27:25 DrSolomon [i=DrSolomo@gateway/tor/x-04ae44e5ed4485c4] has joined #lisp 11:27:33 DCC SEND startkeylogger 0 0 0 11:27:33 -DrSolomon:#lisp- DCC SEND startkeylogger 0 0 0 11:27:33 -!- wlr_ [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:27:33 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:27:33 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:27:33 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:27:34 -DrSolomon:#lisp- NickServ - Someone has sent you a memo, to read it you have to type: /server quote memoserv list 11:27:50 -!- DrSolomon [i=DrSolomo@gateway/tor/x-04ae44e5ed4485c4] has quit [Killed by DLange (grow up, get a life)] 11:27:54 wlr_ [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:04 Hah, he turned up to #python ! I should have kept my mouth shut. 11:28:04 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 11:28:04 yeah :P ive even had issues with lisp in a box. i kinda chopped up the one that used allegro and the one that use CLISP to get it working 11:28:14 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:28:19 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 11:28:41 locklace: thanks for those links 11:29:43 Nocebo1: cltl2 was the de facto standard reference before CL was actually standardised by ansi, and it's still the best overall readable reference. the hyperspec is the actual ansi standard, so more current and accurate but often less readable than cltl2 11:30:15 and series is really cool 11:31:26 Locklace: thanks a lot. i needed a few good references. 11:31:27 yeah, the section "Series" at the bottom of the cltl2 contents page is a very powerful package that is readily available but not part of the ansi standard 11:31:40 -!- m4dnificent [n=user@kotnet-151.kulnet.kuleuven.be] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:32:08 so it would just a project specific choice? 11:32:34 venders_n [n=V@d122-109-191-113.sun9.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:32:51 it's "almost standard" :) 11:33:37 basically the lisp equivalent of lazy evaluation, python "generators", etc. 11:33:38 -!- free_tinker [n=willijar@eas-nw709pc01.aston.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:34:17 i dont know what that is sorry :P 11:34:20 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 11:34:51 kilrog [i=kilrog@gateway/tor/x-a803820d19307336] has joined #lisp 11:35:04 Nocebo1: basically it's a way of working with (possibly infinite) sequences that are computed on-demand instead of ahead of time like normal lists 11:35:40 kilrog: Being nosey ? :-) 11:35:40 DCC SEND startkeylogger 0 0 0 11:35:40 -kilrog:#lisp- NickServ - Someone has sent you a memo, to read it you have to type: /server quote memoserv list 11:35:41 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:35:41 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:35:41 -!- wlr_ [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:35:43 antifuchs _3b _theHAM ``Erik Aankhen`` abeaumont abend ace4016 Adamant adeht Adrinael aerique agemo ahaas Aisling Aji-Dahaka akhilleus aking albino alpheus andrerav andrewy antgreen2 antoszka arbscht_ ASau AshyIsMe attila_lendvai authentic azuk Balooga 11:35:44 dang. 11:35:47 Balooga_ bdowning beach besiria bfein billstclair binarycodes bob_f bobrown bohanlon borism__ bougyman boyscared bpt BrianRice Bucciarati Buganini cads ccl-logbot Cel chandler chii cipher` cky clog cmatei cmm cods colouragga CrazyEddy 11:35:49 Oh, I see. 11:35:51 daniel_ dash__ dcrawford deepfire defn dfox dialtone divinebovine djinni` djkthx_ dmiles dostoyevsky Draggor drewc DrForr dto dublpaws e271 ecraven eirik ejs Eleanore elurin emma eno Eno_ erg esden Fade fe[nl]ix 11:35:54 wlr_ [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:35:55 Damn it. 11:35:58 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:36:14 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 11:36:22 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 11:36:23 lol what is going on? 11:36:24 felipe fnordus foom froydnj gaja galdor gdmfsob Ginei_Morioka gonzojive_ guenther1_ Guest53748 gz H4ns hefner hefnr herbieB holycow housel ia ianmcorvidae ineiros j_king jajcloz Jarvellis Jasko jdz jestocost jlf jmcphers joga 11:36:24 jogla johs jollygood_______ joshe jrockway jsnell keithr kejsaren Khisanth kidd kidd1 kilrog kleppari koning_r1bot kpreid kreuter ksergio kuhzoo kuwabara kzar l3dx l4ndfo l_a_m larstobi lasts lemoinem lichtblau lisppaste lnostdal lnxz 11:36:26 locklace ltbarcly lucca luis madnificent manic12_ manuel__ maskd matimago matley maxote mbac mcxx meingbg merlincorey mgr michaelw mikezor minion mishok13 moesenle mogunus mornfall mqt mr_uggla mtd mueslisc1nitte mulligan mulligan` mvilleneuve 11:36:26 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:36:26 nasloc__ netaust1n nikodemus Nocebo1 nullwork olejorge1b p8m p_l PanGoat Partyzan1 patmatch Patzy pchrist pchrist|univ phadthai Phoodus pierre_thierry PissedNumlock pkhuong pok pon][ pragma_ prip qebab Quadrescence r0bby rdd replaca retupmoca rey_ 11:36:35 -!- kilrog is now known as Adam121314 11:36:47 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 11:37:08 Nocebo1: so you could have a series that represents "all prime numbers"--it acts like a list, more or less, but actually computes the nth prime when you access the nth element 11:37:25 Riastradh rlpowell rottcodd rotty rread rsynnott rtoym rumbleca S11001001 sad0ur sbok scode sellout silenius simonb sjbach slyrus slyrus_ Soulman Soulmann specbot spiaggia spiderbyte Starsie stassats` sykopomp tarbo tcr TDT technik 11:37:25 tessier tessier_ Thas thijso ths__ tic tiesje tltstc tmh tompa Tordek trebor_home Tristam turbo24prg V-ille vcgomes venders_n VityokOrgUa vorian vsync vtl weirdo willb wlr_ wolfboy22 Wombat2 xan Xof xreyes xristos 11:37:27 xvc yahooooo yango zbigniew |jeremiah 11:37:36 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 11:37:51 -!- venders_n [n=V@d122-109-191-113.sun9.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit ["nerf"] 11:37:54 DCC SEND startkeylogger 0 0 0 11:37:54 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:37:54 -!- wlr_ [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:37:54 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:37:54 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:37:58 -Adam121314:#lisp- NickServ - Someone has sent you a memo, to read it you have to type: /server quote memoserv list 11:38:06 wlr_ [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:19 This is getting boring. 11:38:19 what's with this "Someone has sent you a memo" junk? Virus spammers? 11:38:23 I think of it as solving the list operation composition problem, because it streams operations together for free. 11:38:24 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 11:38:27 wtf? 11:38:33 DCC SEND startkeylogger 0 0 0 11:38:34 -!- wlr_ [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:38:34 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:38:38 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:47 -!- Partyzan1 is now known as Partyzant 11:38:51 For example, a natural way to write "add up all the even numbers" is (reduce #'+ (remove-if-not #'evenp list-of-numbers)) 11:38:54 wlr_ [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:38:55 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 11:38:57 -!- mulligan` [n=user@75-70.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:38:58 -!- Adam121314 [i=kilrog@gateway/tor/x-a803820d19307336] has quit [Killed by tomaw ()] 11:39:03 but no one writes this, because of the extra list 11:39:06 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:39:07 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 11:39:15 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:39:36 so they write something ugly like (let ((acc 0)) (mapc (lambda (n) (when (evenp n) (incf acc n)))) acc) 11:39:48 S11001001: (loop for element in list when (evenp element) sum element) 11:39:53 still ugly 11:39:58 that's pretty! 11:40:01 and not a composition 11:40:03 I write the first form ;) 11:40:08 t [i=tom@freenode/staff/tomaw] has joined #lisp 11:40:19 premature optimization can bite me 11:40:21 you can't split any loop notions into separate functions 11:40:23 t: thanks :) 11:40:26 np 11:40:32 venders_n [n=V@d122-109-191-113.sun9.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:40:37 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Changing server"] 11:40:50 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:40:54 how do you call the n'th number in a possibly infinite set? 11:41:21 Nocebo1: the nth number, provided the set is countable :) 11:41:45 (and provided you've chosen a bijection with the set of natural numbers) 11:42:15 with series you get the best of everything: (collecting t (constantly 0) #'+ (choose-if #'evenp (scan 'list list-of-numbers))) 11:42:58 *tic* would say the loop version looks lightly less convoluted, even though it's not as functional 11:42:59 and you can define a function, collect-sum, that is just (collecting t (constantly 0) #'+ arg) where arg is a series, and it will still all be streamed together 11:43:30 Do we need an ITERATE example too, just to round it off? 11:43:45 imo series has awful naming and protocol for functions/macros 11:44:55 tic: if it's fair to use loop's sum keyword, then it's fair to use the collect-sum that series comes with, which makes it (collect-sum (choose-if #'evenp (scan 'list list-of-numbers))) 11:45:22 S11001001, syntax is awkward in both cases. 11:46:11 less awkward than the loop, which manages to hide the filtering notion in the same way as the mapc variant 11:46:30 see what I did there? 11:47:24 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-249-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 11:47:52 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 11:47:53 jesus 11:48:05 wasn't that nutcase banned yesterday? 11:48:11 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.79.64] has joined #lisp 11:48:28 -!- mulligan [n=user@75-74.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:48:55 eevar2 [n=jalla@127.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 11:49:02 cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:07 the series version is much nicer 11:51:27 series syntax isn't perfect, it predates most other similar things, but that's a minor issue 11:52:11 thinking and working with such things in terms of infinite sequences has big advantages 11:53:23 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:53:27 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:55:21 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [No route to host] 11:56:56 cant you just alter aspects of the syntax with macros? 11:57:07 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 11:57:08 make it more flowy and consistent? 11:58:01 sure, you could rework the series syntax if you wanted, or just add a layer 11:58:12 elderK [n=elderK@218-101-117-96.dialup.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 11:58:26 -!- elderK [n=elderK@218-101-117-96.dialup.clear.net.nz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:59:26 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-342213ab512ba1c3] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:59:41 g'nite 12:00:33 nunight 12:01:41 -!- Nocebo1 is now known as blahblah 12:01:44 wierd 12:01:44 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-fa94e82d86db3d2a] has joined #lisp 12:01:52 -!- blahblah is now known as Nocebo1 12:02:30 oooo registered. must have missed nickserv telling me off 12:03:08 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@127.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:03:13 As hinted at above, while you are stuck with the accumulators you've got in loop, you could write collect-sum with defun if it didn't exist already 12:03:17 "fake defun" as it were 12:03:25 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 12:06:22 -!- Nocebo1 is now known as Nocebojin 12:07:36 Odin- [n=sbkhh@gthl-d206.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:09:09 lichtblau here ? 12:09:36 Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:10:19 S11001001: actually i'd be interested in hearing about any fun applications you've found for series 12:10:33 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go"] 12:12:06 -!- Nocebojin [n=shaun@CPE-124-186-227-195.qld.bigpond.net.au] has left #lisp 12:12:33 shaun_ [n=shaun@CPE-124-186-227-195.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:13:30 S11001001 pasted "a sort of generalized linear search and production for maintaining widget trees in Weblocks" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72295 12:13:37 locklace: see 12:13:42 -!- shaun_ is now known as Nocebojin 12:14:12 thanks! 12:15:05 the defmethod on MWPW is just amazing 12:15:29 trittweil [n=trittwei@macbroy20.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:15:30 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 12:17:15 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:19:24 xristos: hi 12:21:03 lichtblau sorry thought you werent around 12:21:09 i emailed you with a question about cxml-tp 12:23:00 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:24:39 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279442397.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:25:43 -!- ths__ [n=ths@X7722.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:26:38 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@gthl-d206.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:27:23 kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a9640faa6dcaa6bd] has joined #lisp 12:27:29 hello lispers 12:27:38 I've never really understood why people make bots that enter channels and say everyone's nick. 12:28:10 It's barely annoying, so I got highlighted. So what. It doesn't seem like it makes sense from any cost benefit analysis. 12:28:54 xristos: restarts would be nice, I'm just not sure about the specific implementation 12:29:38 ok i'll look into it 12:30:02 maybe its more appropriate in closure-html ? since it does parsing and tries to correct malformed html 12:30:22 xristos: right now there's this terrible situation where things go through several escaping and encoding steps. It would be much coolor if I could figure out some macrology to compile babel's encoding tables into xml-aware tables that magically handle steps like < to < escaping -and- the character code junk. 12:31:02 xristos: hmm, that's certainly an option. I don't do much work on closure-html actually, but I'd apply such a patch. 12:31:18 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:31:28 emma: maybe thats the point. annoying but not annoying enough to suggest it was made for that purpose. which makes it annoying and confusing :P 12:33:02 Yeah more annoying because I cant figure out what kind of person would do that and think they were clever. I think the annoying part is to imagine the person sitting there snickering and feeling so clever. 12:33:27 "i just sed everyones name... heh heh heh" 12:33:36 XML serializing is suprisingly evil. You can't serialize comments that contain that end in a "-", contain "--" characters; processing instructions that contain "?>", ... 12:34:15 The way XOM and STP already prohibit such text in memory (long before serialization happens) makes sense, I think, but also causes the issues you're having. 12:34:42 i remember how using double-hyphen in html comments once broke firefox 12:36:42 -!- xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.12/0000000000]"] 12:43:08 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.79.64] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:43:16 *ace4016* hates being highlighted for no reason 12:43:46 oh how i wish there was a bot to fight these bots automatically 12:44:28 why don't all the good people kill all the bad ones already, one wonders 12:44:54 because then they become bad guys and must then kill themselves 12:45:16 them* 12:46:06 chawls [n=nix@bzq-219-145-16.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:38 emma: I didn't know you lisp'd. 12:47:05 And to #lisp: What's up with the constant mass highlights? 12:50:11 Quadrescence: isn't it a priviledge to watch shit happen in real time? 12:51:15 cmm: I want things to happen real-time when appropriate! 12:56:01 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.69.112] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:56:12 elurin [n=user@85.99.69.112] has joined #lisp 12:58:32 ths [n=ths@p549AFA94.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:59:00 whats a highlight in the irc sense? 12:59:06 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:00:27 robyonrails [n=roby@host211-200-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 13:00:28 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.131.141] has joined #lisp 13:00:46 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:11:03 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:29 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 13:12:55 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:13:18 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:14:01 Nocebojin, visual and/or audible hint when user's nick is spoken 13:14:02 <_3b> Nocebojin: many irc clients do something to get your attention when your nick is mentioned 13:16:21 -!- Phoodus is now known as and 13:16:24 there :) 13:16:41 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:16:45 -!- and is now known as Phoodus 13:16:59 benny` [n=benny@i577A15F1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:17:27 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:18:19 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:11 m4dnificent [n=user@kotnet-151.kulnet.kuleuven.be] has joined #lisp 13:19:44 good afternoon 13:24:10 hrm, this is probably really basic, but what is the deal when the debugger tells you that 'package::name is not of type (or symbol function) but (type-of 'package::name) says 'SYMBOL'? 13:24:47 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 13:24:51 xan: '(foo::bar() is (QUOTE FOO::BAR) 13:25:18 xan: 'foo::bar is (QUOTE FOO::BAR) 13:25:49 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:26:05 xan: You're using 'foo::bar at a place that is not evaluated 13:26:08 trittweil: but then it's evaluated 13:26:20 <_3b> Phoodus: not always 13:26:36 right, he's dealing with a macro or something 13:26:40 trittweil, ow, you are right, it was already inside a quoted list 13:26:47 thanks :) 13:27:12 or that ;) 13:32:30 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 13:32:32 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:39:33 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:40:06 Quadrescence: I don't lisp much yet, I hope eventually I will. 13:40:20 emma: When did you begin to lisp? 13:41:01 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-158-30.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 13:43:23 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:46:21 Quadrescence: I've been looking at sheme for a while. I can do some basic things like make programs that solve math problems. 13:46:25 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:46:37 elurin` [n=user@85.96.234.46] has joined #lisp 13:46:54 Quadrescence: I feel like there is this huge devide between that kind of thing and using scheme or any lisp to make a real program. 13:47:01 emma: Admittedly, I'm only a recent lisper (too). 13:47:08 And I'd agree with that. 13:47:41 -!- vtl [n=user@nat/redhat/x-5e64defc6de8fb02] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:47:42 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:09 vtl [n=user@nat/redhat/x-c31ac5fbbc042ca2] has joined #lisp 13:49:27 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host186.190-137-177.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:49:34 lol the scheme vs lisp debate goes on forever 13:50:14 There is no scheme vs Common* Lisp debate I know of. 13:50:40 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:50:47 i got the impression there was. theres plenty of scheme vs common lisp stuff 13:51:28 Scheme is lisp, just a different view of how it should be implemented, I guess one could say. 13:51:49 bare minimum vs. frills and thrills 13:51:49 eevar2 [n=jalla@127.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:52:31 one of the things i crave in a language is consistency 13:53:06 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.206.234] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 13:53:14 which is what i love about lisp. ) 13:53:22 ( when i first saw (+ 5 3) i was shocked, amazed and excited lol 13:54:50 There are many things in Common Lisp, being the agglomeration of different historical dialects, that are not very consistent. 13:55:22 yeah i have heard that 13:55:39 what's so great about lisp-2, anyway? 13:55:54 the arguments order of ELT, and NTH being the canonical example 13:56:10 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:56:12 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:00:20 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:24 the only good thing I ever heard about lisp-2s is that you don't need to call your lists "lst" :P 14:01:10 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:03:01 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.69.112] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:04:14 sellout- [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:47 ksergio: you can still do that if you don't want the function :-) 14:05:37 ksergio, the paper written about that issue by Richard Gabriel also claimed Lisp-2 allows for some extra optimizations and possible simpler compilers I think 14:05:46 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:06:12 -!- sellout- [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:06:43 -!- esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 14:07:05 *ksergio* nods.. that's, however, not an advantage most users care about. The complexity of the compiler, I mean 14:07:30 ksergio: they will if the compiler ends up being faster 14:07:36 or producing better code 14:07:51 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:07:56 (and I meant s/possible/possibly ...) 14:09:15 I'd better learn what a lisp-1 and lisp-2 are. 14:09:21 there's no need to check whether symbol-function is functionp at function application time 14:09:28 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:09:40 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:09:41 but sticking funcall everywhere makes the code damn fugly 14:10:09 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:10:10 it seems to mee that a very minor speed gain is not worth not being a lisp-1 :( 14:10:12 they could go to a compromise by allowing conses in car elt 14:10:13 weirdo: don't do it, then. 14:10:28 Quadrescence: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 14:10:31 a lisp-2, i mean 14:10:39 yeah, i could employ a code walker to stick funcalls for me 14:11:57 a-s [n=user@89.38.174.194] has joined #lisp 14:12:04 I think queinnec explains well about the issues of allowing conses in car in a lisp-2, in l.i.s.p. 14:13:12 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-140.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:14:28 oh, a montrealais 14:16:02 segv [n=mb@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:19:32 -!- a-s [n=user@89.38.174.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:20:19 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:20:46 *rsynnott* doesn't see the problem with lisp-2, particularly 14:20:59 can look a bit ugly, but it's hardly a big deal 14:21:12 Here are 2 kitty cats of mine that help me program in lisp http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/4660/img0061wv1.jpg 14:21:32 at least lisp-2s don't do things like surround class names in funny symbols to distinguish them 14:21:47 jkantz [n=jkantz@c-66-30-114-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:22:54 they don't look too interested 14:26:20 So, the only difference between lisp-1 and -2 is the separation of functions and non-functions? 14:28:09 Quadrescence: More like separation of the namespaces rather than the objects. 14:28:42 Quadrescence: But there is no two Lisp dialects out there where this is the only difference. 14:29:54 Quadrescence: Besides, CL is usually considered as having quite a few more namespaces than 2, for instance names of classes, of method combinations, etc. 14:30:25 -!- elurin` is now known as elurin 14:31:55 morning 14:32:18 hello slyrus_ 14:33:38 don't class names live in the normal variable namespace? 14:34:29 No, and you typically write a method like this (defmethod m ((thing thing)) ...) 14:34:56 This is allowed because the first thing is a parmeter and the second is a class name. 14:35:29 My favorite exampel is from McCLIM: (defmethod graft ((graft graft)) graft) 14:36:51 spiaggia: I was just about to blame mcclim for some drawing weirdness, when I realized it's probably quirks of the gtkairo backend. 14:37:07 <_3b> and more specifically, (defclass foo ...) doesn't cause foo to become bound, so there is no interactions with variables 14:37:14 spiaggia: also, I hear you're working on a framebuffer backend? 14:37:31 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:37:41 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:37:44 slyrus_: right now I am working on getting ready to go teach in Ho Chi Minh City. 14:38:02 But yeah, that has been a project of mine for some time. 14:38:05 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@c-66-30-114-74.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:38:19 nice! when do you leave? 14:38:25 and for how long? 14:38:28 Last time I gave up because just rendering a triangle is nontrivial, and a polygon is very hard indeed. 14:38:37 slyrus_: tomorrow, for a month. 14:38:42 excellent 14:39:06 presumably the framebuffer backend will make writing various export-to-image-file routines trivial? 14:39:36 -!- elurin [n=user@85.96.234.46] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:39:55 yeah, and things like antialiasing, transparency, etc. 14:39:58 also, the discussion of your framebuffer backend came up in the context of the PS backend, which is very nice indeed! 14:41:33 slyrus_: what was said (briefly)? 14:42:08 oh, I was just saying how the PS backend was nice, but that I wanted PDF, png, tiff, etc... 14:42:25 I see. 14:42:34 I imagine making the ps backend spit out PDF shouldn't be too difficult 14:42:38 How does an activated restart get a hold of the condition raised? 14:43:26 slyrus_: I am pretty sure you are right. 14:44:58 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:45:13 Krystof made it generate Javascript canvas code, so that we can publish Gsharp scores on the web. 14:45:30 oh, that's nice! 14:45:49 The webpage is indistinguisable from the hardcopy verison. 14:46:10 er, put some h in there somewhere. 14:47:11 hindistinguishable? :) 14:47:32 someting like tat, yea. 14:48:49 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 14:48:55 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbff35.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:49:25 division-bell [n=Kenan@88.238.43.242] has joined #lisp 14:50:08 -!- kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a9640faa6dcaa6bd] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 14:50:13 elurin [n=user@85.96.234.46] has joined #lisp 14:52:48 deepfire: pass the condition via invoke-restart? 14:52:58 error opening #P"/home/hefner/.sbcl/systems/packrat.asd": Too many open files 14:53:06 *hefner* blinks 14:53:16 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:29 -!- leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has quit ["Reboot Emacs"] 14:55:17 oh right, the file dates were in the future. I haven't had that bite me in years. 14:56:02 Something's confused about the error code returned by open()? ? 14:56:43 no, asdf is retarded and recurses infinitely until it runs out of file descriptors 14:57:13 anryx [n=anryx@213.210.175.188.adsl.nextra.cz] has joined #lisp 14:57:51 -!- trittweil [n=trittwei@macbroy20.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:14 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:58:32 locklace, what if the restart is invoked via debugger? 15:00:03 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has left #lisp 15:00:09 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:01:06 deepfire: what construct are you using to establish the restart? 15:01:23 clhs 9.1.4.2.4 15:01:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/09_adbd.htm 15:02:17 locklace, restart-bind 15:03:34 deepfire: you can supply the :interactive-function keyword to restart-bind to produce the arguments for when the restart is invoked by invoke-restart-interactively (eg via the debugger) 15:04:13 my answer would have been :test-function, but I'm not sure what the question anyway 15:04:22 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@d288be-124.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:04:58 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a17-087.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:05:12 lichtblau, how can I pass the most recently signalled condition to the restart body 15:06:30 elderK [n=elderK@218-101-117-145.dialup.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 15:06:31 hefner: does it actually do that for any good reason, or is it something that would be reasonable to modfiy? 15:06:49 happens to me occasionally as well when I forget to touch every asd on opening 15:06:54 *deploying 15:06:59 locklace, this produces complications -- either the signalling site or the handlng site must pass the condition object to the restart-bind site 15:07:21 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:07:21 rsynnott: I've never looked into why it happens, but it seems indefensible to me. 15:07:38 -!- elderK [n=elderK@218-101-117-145.dialup.clear.net.nz] has left #lisp 15:07:43 locklace, what if you want them separated? (which is exactly my case) 15:07:51 lichtblau: I'm seeing some gtkairo weirdness drawing circles and what not 15:08:31 wasabi________ [n=wasabi@ntoska175061.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:09:16 locklace, I'm currently using a special variable carrying the condition object from handler-case to restart-bind's lambda for doing this 15:09:48 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:10:05 hmm, where should patches to asdf be submitted? 15:10:16 it seems that each impl has its own fork at this point 15:10:18 locklace, the idea is that the condition, from which a restart is being used to bail out of, is an extremely natural thing to ask for 15:10:31 locklace, or so it seems 15:10:58 locklace, and using special variables to pass it looks like gratuitious complication 15:11:30 deepfire: well i don't think there is any more direct way to do it, because restarts as such are independent of conditions... 15:11:45 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 15:11:57 locklace, this is what I've got from CLHS so far, yes 15:12:07 locklace, hope, as they say.. 15:13:04 but maybe someone else has a more clever idea for going in the restart->condition direction when that makes sense 15:13:30 right, which is why I'm asking.. 15:14:40 slyrus_: screenshot? 15:15:01 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 15:16:15 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 15:16:35 deepfire: what if you used handler-bind instead? 15:17:14 wasabi_________ [n=wasabi@ntoska175061.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:17:43 rsynnott: cclan-devel 15:17:46 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CCDA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:18:41 ah, thanks 15:18:54 I may have a go at fixing it; it's quite annoying 15:19:50 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:20:44 -!- Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:21:13 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A15F1.versanet.de] has quit [Excess Flood] 15:22:07 -!- m4dnificent [n=user@kotnet-151.kulnet.kuleuven.be] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:12 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 15:26:23 locklace, I don't see how this changes things.. 15:26:43 sb-debug:%invoke-debugger almost does it, by the way 15:27:11 it binds *debug-condition* but does not declare it special 15:27:26 -!- wasabi________ [n=wasabi@ntoska175061.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:27:29 and of course it isn't standartised 15:27:35 lichtblau: http://www2.cyrusharmon.org/chemicl-draw-clx.png 15:27:50 and http://www2.cyrusharmon.org/chemicl-draw-gtkairo.png 15:27:57 the second is missing a circle 15:28:08 sometimes it draws it as a quarter circle arc 15:28:16 s/it/similar circles/ 15:29:57 does it work with (setf clim-gtkairo::*medium-type* :gdk)? 15:30:28 is it a scrolling issue? double buffering or not? ...? 15:30:48 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:31:15 leo2007 [n=leo@sl392.st-edmunds.cam.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:33:10 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-158-30.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:33:12 baetis-fly [n=baetis-f@pool-96-245-219-99.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:13 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 15:34:31 I have a silly question...I have a class A, I want to create class Ba that defines two new slots, then I want two other classes that predefine the two new slot values, call these Cba and Dba. What's the correct way to go about doing that? 15:35:03 It's the predefining the slot values in Cba and Dba that i'm unsure of. 15:35:27 baetis-fly: you can use :default-initargs or redefine the slot in the derived class 15:36:27 benny` [n=benny@i577A15F1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:36:47 -!- anryx [n=anryx@213.210.175.188.adsl.nextra.cz] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:36:49 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:07 H4ns: thanks. I'll take a look at :default-initargs. I'd like to do something like pass the init args to my base class (defclass Cba (Ba :my-slot 2) ()) 15:37:23 baetis-fly: default-initargs is for you. 15:37:27 H4ns: thanks again. 15:37:40 -!- benny` is now known as benny 15:38:06 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:39:16 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.131.141] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:40:21 lichtblau: it did seem to be related to changing the transformation 15:41:09 seems to be ok with :gdk 15:42:03 -!- Nocebojin [n=shaun@CPE-124-186-227-195.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:42:26 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.131.141] has joined #lisp 15:42:57 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 15:44:24 mega1 [n=mega@53d830c8.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 15:45:37 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-140.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 15:45:45 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181137124.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:46:47 willb [n=wibenton@wireless78.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:47:38 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:48:26 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has joined #lisp 15:49:13 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 15:49:15 good evening 15:49:29 vasa [n=vasa@mm-108-81-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 15:49:43 good evening nikodemus 15:49:47 morning. 15:50:20 any thoughts on the bug tracking stuff? 15:50:33 antoni [n=antoni@205.pool85-53-26.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 15:50:47 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:50 Clearly a bikeshed, and since I'm probably one of the few people *not* qualified to speak on the issue, I'll just wait and see. 15:51:54 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:54:17 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@127.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:54:21 pkhuong: you've never touched BUGS, right? 15:54:44 esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 15:55:00 nikodemus: nope. 15:56:06 but you've replied to "is this a bug?" emails 15:56:08 buccia [n=buccia@bucciarati-1-pt.tunnel.tserv11.ams1.ipv6.he.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:17 -!- buccia [n=buccia@bucciarati-1-pt.tunnel.tserv11.ams1.ipv6.he.net] has quit [Client Quit] 15:56:57 right? 15:57:00 nikodemus: yes, and to duplicate/old reports. I don't have any experience with any of the bugtracking system. 15:57:02 my feeling is that patch tracking is at least as big a problem as bug tracking 15:57:08 (for sbcl currently) 15:57:17 yep 15:57:27 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 15:57:30 josemanuel [n=josemanu@239.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:57:47 pkhuong: if those emails had been bugreports in a tracker, would you have still dealt with them? 15:59:10 if I also received an email notification for fast personal triage. I would probably even use the tracker if the interface's not too infuriating. 16:00:16 right 16:00:26 hi 16:00:36 I've a question about mutual recursion 16:00:41 what's the difference between bug and patch tracking? (say in the terms of e.g. Trac?) 16:00:45 is there a way to do it with "defun" ? :] 16:00:51 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.131.141] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:01:02 (I know it's possible with labels, but..) 16:01:21 <_3b> (defun foo() (bar)) (defun bar() (foo)) ? 16:01:21 (something like "let rec f = ... and g = ..." in ocaml) 16:01:29 yeah 16:01:32 lasts: just write mutually recursive functions, one defun per function. 16:01:38 but there's a warning this way 16:01:50 "bar is not defined blabla" 16:02:02 (still, it works, but hm) 16:02:06 that is a style worning 16:02:12 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-108-81-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 16:02:18 <_3b> ignore it, or compile them in the same file for block compilation stuff 16:02:42 lasts: only if you compile them separately. Since you're compiling them interactively, I expect you can tell that style warning isn't reporting a real issue. 16:02:49 they are in the same file, should I define a module ? 16:03:08 well, I load them in the toplevel 16:03:23 _3b: Have you considered using an existing CL compiler for your swf work, and sending the output to swf2's assembler as the last step only? 16:03:24 <_3b> or i guess you could declaim the 2nd function notinline, that might get rid of the warning too 16:03:33 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:04:00 -!- cads [n=max@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:04:18 <_3b> lichtblau: don't know any existing compilers well enough to even evaluate the amount of work that would take 16:05:05 *madnificent* would be interested in the comparison between porting an existing compiler (say clisp) and _3b's very cool work 16:05:12 I've toyed around with SBCL loaded as a cross-compiler yesterday, cross-compiling trivial little functions into IR2 to try and see what the AVM2 assembler definition should look like for some common VOPs. 16:05:14 <_3b> lichtblau: that would probably fit better if targetting alchemy though 16:05:43 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:05:46 alchemy is an insane hack :-) 16:06:03 <_3b> yeah, i'd probably be targetting that if i didn't want to run on flash 9 16:06:08 lasts: you only get that style warning because you're not compiling the file containing both definitions. Any `module' definition is irrelevant. 16:06:20 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A15F1.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:06:21 hm, ok, thanks 16:06:27 _3b: Do you know anything about newer swfs, such as compiled with Flex 3, having many more doABC tags than previous versions? 16:06:46 I'd just want to implement enough VOPs so that SBCL would be able to compile roughly as much as your existing compiler. 16:06:50 <_3b> ahaas: tags at the .swf file level you mean? 16:06:52 wasabi__________ [n=wasabi@ntoska208215.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:06:57 _3b: yes 16:07:36 <_3b> ahaas: not looked at newer .swf level stuff yet, presumably that is what would be needed to do the non bytecode parts of alchemy? 16:07:40 _3b: I'm updating my swf parser and I'm having problems and I noticed that newer swfs have dozens of doABC tags, where my older, Flex 2 ones, only had 2 at the most. 16:08:25 <_3b> lichtblau: probably a reasonable strategy, i don't know sbcl code well enough to really try doing it that way though 16:08:39 _3b: I'm just reading in a swf, parsing it, and writing it back out, but when I try to run the swfs I'm getting an error that a variable cannot be found. 16:08:45 what you do mean with "non bytecode parts of alchemy"? 16:09:16 _3b: I thought it might be related. I know you had mentioned something about getDefinitionByName before, and that's where it's failing. 16:09:30 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:09:41 <_3b> lichtblau: it adds new avm2 opcodes, but also does some other things at the player level i think 16:09:42 -!- PanGoat [n=PanGoat@node2.sensoryresearch.net] has quit ["leaving"] 16:10:47 I see. Are those new opcodes documented anywhere? 16:10:56 <_3b> ahaas: hmm, dunno... i just barely looked at .swf enough to write out a hard coded .swf file with a single abc chunk :) 16:11:05 jsnell: what kind of patch tracking features do you see us needing? 16:11:24 <_3b> lichtblau: info i have on them is from a haxe dev's blog 16:11:58 ah, need to start reading that then 16:12:13 <_3b> lichtblau http://ncannasse.fr/blog/adobe_alchemy in the comments i think was it 16:12:44 <_3b> set of opcodes for reading/writing various int/float types from a byte vector 16:12:53 lichtblau: What's your goal? Compiling Lisp code to run on AVM2? 16:13:05 benny [n=benny@i577A15F1.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:13:15 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:14:28 _3b: That's The haxe dev. 16:15:05 ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has joined #lisp 16:16:17 hmm, I just made a paste but it wasn't advertised.. 16:16:45 <_3b> deepfire: did you set the channel (or use the /lisp/ url)? 16:17:09 _3b: I don't think alchemy is that attractive for anything other than existing C code, since you don't get to use AVM2's GC nor can interface with AVM2 objects properly. 16:17:32 _3b, maybe I forgot that.. 16:17:44 -!- wasabi_________ [n=wasabi@ntoska175061.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:17:48 <_3b> lichtblau: yeah, it could be fun for a sort of coprocessor mode, for number crunching or whatever 16:18:12 *deepfire* just have posted "DERROR and DSIGNAL, augmented for condition passing to restarts" at: http://paste.lisp.org/display/72300 16:18:39 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:18:44 <_3b> lichtblau: compile everything to a big pile of CPS style gotos, so no function call or symbol lookup overhead, etc 16:19:30 deepfire: do you have an example where having access to the condition object is useful for a restart? 16:20:34 Hmm. I still don't believe the claims that alchemy offers a speed advantage. 16:21:32 nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-181-72-33.cncdnh.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:48 malloc falling over, charming 16:22:15 <_3b> i'd expect it to be at least a bit better, but might be able to get some of the benefit just by compiling normal code differently 16:22:59 nikodemus, restart doing a fixup dependent on a condition, then invoking another restart 16:23:07 lichtblau: that article seems to say that it uses extra secret opcodes 16:23:13 *_3b* wonders if alchemy is any easier on verifier limitations. 16:23:25 though whether _they_ actually offer a speed advantage is the question, I suppose 16:23:50 <_3b> rsynnott: he benchmarked them in a later post, andf they do if i remember correctly 16:24:09 Hello all. 16:24:15 I thought it was also an issue of how crappy the Adobe compiler is versus LLVM, which Alchemy uses. 16:24:33 <_3b> ahaas: that could be too 16:24:45 _deepfire pasted "a use case for DERROR" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72301 16:25:05 <_3b> always annoying looking at disassembly and wondering how much is just bad code, or how much doesn't matter because the JIT fixes it 16:26:14 <_3b> stuff like allocating an activation record for local functions that don't close over anything 16:26:45 deepfire: that's a bit vague :) 16:27:53 lichtblau: why not close over LOCALITY and MODULE? 16:28:48 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit ["home"] 16:29:10 nikodemus, they enter the picture in downstream methods 16:29:15 oops, deepfire, i mean 16:29:36 oh, so they aren't the same thing is the method arguments? 16:29:43 as, even 16:30:21 I've been calling my Linux usbdevfs bindings for SBCL "sb-usb", but lately I've been wondering if I should perhaps call them something else, like "lh-usb" (for lisphacker.com). Should I? 16:30:28 wait a bit, it has the potential of being very funny.. 16:31:48 nyef: well, if you were ever to port it to something other than sbcl the name might be confusing :) 16:32:16 rsynnott: Yeah, that was one of my concerns. 16:32:25 oops: Xlib: unexpected async reply (sequence 0x2abbd)! 16:32:58 okay, it is indeed extremely funny, because I've spent X hours for coming up with a perfect solution for a non-problem :-) 16:33:06 Plus I'm thinking of doing some related bindings. FUSE, for example. And then perhaps bundling them all into one project. 16:33:14 the general issue still rests, though, I guess 16:34:04 an upstream generalising error handling for downstream 16:34:23 (also, sb-usb sounds like an sbcl internal along the lines of sb-bsd-sockets) 16:34:28 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:34:48 rsynnott: Yeah, although it's amazing how many non-SBCL systems have an SB-BSD-SOCKETS package... 16:35:56 nikodemus annotated #72301 with "the way i would do it" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72301#1 16:36:51 there is a lisp-git library? 16:37:18 madnificient, no, but there is a desire in the air :-) 16:37:39 nikodemus: isn't with-slots not safe to use on a condition? 16:37:41 may I assume that it is not only my desire? 16:38:06 madnificient, I even have vague plans for doing it myself 16:38:26 so the sheet-region gives me the sheet, how do I figure out how big the actually visible portion of the sheet is (and it's coordinates)? 16:39:13 oh, why not go all the way and just make a new vcs? 16:39:20 it's a popular activity these days 16:39:24 *rsynnott* grumbles 16:39:25 :) 16:40:06 deepfire: I'm willing to test it. But I don't feel like I'm up to the job for writing it. There is a library for emacs that might be helpful in seeing how to write a basic library for it. 16:40:56 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-158-30.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:41:04 ah, there we go. window-viewport 16:41:37 madnificient, I want to go up from the basic bits, not calling out to the C-land at all. 16:41:48 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has left #lisp 16:42:26 ok, but now I want to know the extent of the region that's on the window-viewport in sheet coordinates. 16:42:36 there's got to be a built-in way to do that 16:43:26 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:43:40 locklace: that too 16:46:38 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:47:59 -!- gdmfsob [n=gdmfsob@92.112.48.185] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:48:46 sykopomp: There are some people I know that are asking more-and-more for the tutorial that you wrote (I pasted the link and they want to look at it in time). Is there some way I can help you with it (I don't have much time, but I'm willing to spend some time in crazy-writing to convince those people to use lisp). 16:49:00 -!- antoni [n=antoni@205.pool85-53-26.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 16:50:41 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 16:50:46 madnificent: 'when it's done'. I'm still working on it :P 16:53:03 sykopomp: can I get I very rough idea? Then I know how long I may keep them quiet :) 16:53:45 sykopomp: though I'm not willing to, I do know that I'm putting some pressure on you. It is a great idea, but besides my many inquiries on the status of it, you shouldn't really care. :) 16:53:47 I'd say give me a week or two. It occurred to me that I sort of want to polish it a bit. 16:54:00 very good! faster than I assumed 16:54:23 actually, it's really nice to know that people want to read it. I don't think it's that big a deal, but I like helping. 16:54:32 what's the tutorial about? 16:54:37 slyrus_: I think sheet-viewport-region is what you want 16:54:47 ah, thanks! 16:55:06 or pane-viewport-region, rather 16:55:06 xan: it's a quick-and-dirty let's-just-do-it newbie intro to lisp. 16:55:38 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #lisp 16:55:39 ah, I see, nice 16:55:44 with all do respect for the lisp community, but the learning curve is rather steep. True, there is a lot to learn, but people like to learn gradually (whilst using it) 16:55:53 s/people/many people 16:55:59 PCL is great, but not 'quick' I guess :) 16:56:23 PCL is good for people who are already good and comfortable with programming. Not so much for level-0 people. 16:56:43 yes, totally. IIRC the book itself says so 16:56:50 PCL is pretty quick. 16:57:00 meaning you can only really catch the people who are either exceptionally open-minded, or people who are going to be terribly annoyed because it's 'weird' (they already have preconceptions about what programming is like) 16:57:02 Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-60468.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:57:38 PCL teaches you a lot. Many people I know simply aren't up to the task of macros yet. It is simply too much to take in a short period of time. Evidently, they write lisp off as 'extremely difficult'. 16:57:40 "pretty quick" is not enough for a book that introduces a pretty complete db engine with query language as one of the practical examples ;D 16:57:52 p_l: it does that in under a chapter. 16:57:59 p_l: that's amazingly quick. 16:58:20 bougyman: The first version, the second one has some stricter checks but still would kick most of my classmates out 16:58:22 I wrote my first -actual- macro about two days ago. 16:58:33 pcl is good, very good. But I believe a primer might be welcome 16:58:36 madnificent: macros really aren't that bad 16:58:52 (though they should probably not be used all that much in practice) 16:58:54 sykopomp, actual macro? as opposed to non-macro? 16:59:11 i didn't 'get' macros completely until I started playing with clojure. 16:59:26 rsynnott: nope, once you get them you wonder what the hard part about it was. I guess it is just opening your mind to something so radically different, yet so simple, that it becomes hard to understand 16:59:28 rsynnott: They should be used all the time in practice. They just don't need to be -defined- that often. :-P 16:59:29 as opposed to with-whatever or def-my-weird-metaclass macros? 16:59:38 nyef: fair enough, yes :) 16:59:40 tic: I'd written a 'macro' before. Way back. It was mostly an ugly hack so I could pass a special variable into a top-level function and not get dynamic behavior. (I was pretty new back then) 16:59:47 the clojure docs do a better job of explaining how the reader deals with macros than any c-l docs I found had done. 16:59:48 (I'd hate to live without DEFUN, for example...) 16:59:57 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:00:25 sykopomp, so what was the macro you wrote now? The first piece of "real" Lisp code I wrote included a with-foo macro. I guess that counts as one of the more trivial ones. 17:00:31 gdmfsob [n=gdmfsob@94.178.0.182] has joined #lisp 17:00:42 tic: clone 17:00:54 (so, in essence, a def-my-weird-metaclass macro) 17:01:02 manic12__ [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:02 -!- borism__ [n=boris@195-50-197-14-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:02:30 My current project has two macros in it... and I think one may be a design mistake. 17:02:30 I usually use function to create new objects. I use macros for environments I want to work in (in many cases, to shorten the code I need to write) 17:02:50 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:02:56 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@239.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 17:03:10 madnificent: I wanted some syntactic sugar around the underlying function, to make it look more like defclass. 17:03:22 I think that's more what macros are for. Nice sugar. 17:03:26 sykopomp, I see. 17:03:30 mm sugar 17:03:33 yum 17:03:38 int80_h [n=michael@h-68-166-221-28.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:29 I want to write a web app that plots planets on the celestial sphere. Any suggestions for relevant libs? 17:04:47 hmm... every command seems to be resetting my scrollbars back to their original value. 17:04:52 I mean graphical libs 17:05:07 sykopomp: not always, sometimes they are much more than sugar. Sometimes they are the only real way to do certain things (for instance, I have a prototype of a design-by-contract system that I couldn't have written in any regular way without macros (clearly, any turing-complete language could actually do it, but then it'd be such a mess that DBC wouldn't help anymore) 17:05:25 int80_h: There's parenscript if you want to do it with javascript. That would let you use just about any javascript library out there (jquery, dojo, etc) 17:05:41 int80_h: there's also lisp-to-flash compilers, but I'm not sure what their current state is. 17:06:00 oh I'm not sure I need anything fancy like flash 17:06:01 <_3b> int80_h: vecto maybe? 17:06:11 _3b: that was my guess too 17:06:16 yeah vecto sounds closer to what I want :) 17:06:23 thanks :) 17:06:31 oh, I thought you wanted a fancy web app with clickety and things like that. 17:06:33 :P 17:06:44 (incf vecto) 17:07:13 nah, I'll use forms to get input and then draw a map 17:07:25 but I'm not familiar with web programming 17:07:39 kpax \o/ 17:07:53 I suspect it would be easier to not use a web server. 17:08:04 int80_h: you could also look into ucw and/or weblocks 17:08:21 cool 17:08:22 int80_h: they're pretty nice web frameworks that let you code your app in a style closer to normal applications. 17:08:51 int80_h: check ucw, weblocks and kpax and choose for yourself. cl-perec might come in handy some day too (but perhaps not for this project) 17:08:55 are there libs that lets you use opengl directly from lisp or do we always have to use c libs etc to reach opengl? 17:09:08 int80_h: oh, and there is lisp on lines too 17:09:21 division-bell: cl-opengl is actually a really good bindings library. 17:09:36 division-bell: you can use cl-opengl from within lispbuilder-sdl 17:10:38 does it require other lisp libs to run or runs independent if i load it with lispbuilder? 17:11:07 you can load cl-opengl by itself 17:11:14 I think it needs cffi 17:11:33 cffi indeed, installed it a week ago 17:11:58 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 17:12:02 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-20.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:12:14 and i use lispbox with allegro cl on win, do you think it will be a problem with libs? 17:12:37 it'll be hard to get support for issues here 17:12:45 milanj [n=milan@79.101.137.48] has joined #lisp 17:12:58 and I don't know how good free lib support is for allegro (I think it's probably decent enough) 17:13:03 edi weitz's starter pack which uses lispworks personal also seems great, i can use it if it will be more convenient? 17:13:05 division-bell: allegro is not supported by many open source libraries, but it comes with a nice set of proprietary libraries. 17:13:38 division-bell: you could try a free implementation, too, like sbcl or clisp. 17:13:38 division-bell: you might also find it handy to run sbcl in linux on a VM 17:13:40 division-bell: same thing. this channel is mostly about free lisp implementations. lispworks has a mailing list that is friendly and works well for issues. 17:13:55 I believe clozure runs fine on win32, but i'm most probably wrong. 17:13:59 though lispworks actually seems to be well-supported by many libs now 17:14:09 sykopomp: I think in about the same way as SBCL does :) 17:14:19 <_3b> division-bell: you could use clx/glx to talk to opengl without and C in between, but you probably don't want to 17:14:26 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:14:41 *sykopomp* feels proprietary implementations have slowed down Lisp adoption, to an extent. 17:15:20 In what way? 17:15:35 you do realize companies like support, right? 17:16:07 Yes, but that's -companies-. Independent developers like free instead. 17:16:09 sykopomp: More like multiple implementations without one leader. Haskell now thrives thanks to GHC being de facto standard 17:16:27 -!- vtl [n=user@nat/redhat/x-c31ac5fbbc042ca2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:16:28 tic: going back to the barrier-of-entry argument, I think in a world where you can 'just' download (i)python or gcc, telling someone they have to pay $500 to have the 'useful' version of your compiler is a bit of a showstopper. 17:17:40 sykopomp: A very good licensing system is used by Corman 17:17:49 sykopomp: it is not. i have successfully bought commercial lisp compilers for companies. 17:17:52 sykopomp: you can have the useful version of someone else's compiler for free, though 17:18:05 lispm [n=joswig@f054055248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:18:13 sykopomp, SBCL is quite useful. 17:18:18 rsynnott: I was talking about the proprietary ones here. 17:18:26 sykopomp: also, I believe that if you are, say, doing a startup, at least Franz, and possibly also Lispworks, is willing to be accomodating if you ask them 17:18:59 rsynnott: franz is willing to give you a "better price" if you promise them a share in your income in return 17:19:04 yeah, they seem to be quite nice and helpful. They also seem to develop quite awesome technology (and quality compilers) 17:19:05 tic: Companies and support means you get only a Lisp when it made it into the budget. That sounds like an adoption barrier to me. :-) 17:19:22 (a Franz guy mentioned this is the comments in the reddit post on siwtching to python) 17:19:43 -!- divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:20:01 with Franz you have to negotiate almost always a price 17:20:03 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:20:24 honestly? I'd rather just use sbcl/clisp/clozure. 17:20:33 clozure may end up a better model, as it's free in itself but developed by a company who (theoretically) makes money out of supporting it 17:20:43 ths, again, you still have the option for SBCL. It's not an either-or situation, luckily! 17:20:46 they don't have a price list openly published 17:20:55 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:21:05 Franz makes money from projects where this is not a problem 17:21:21 lispm: Thus giving an appearance of "if you have to ask, you can't afford it". 17:21:34 tic: SBCL goes hardly as a proprietary $500 Lisp. :-) 17:21:39 ths, i 17:21:43 in fact i think i'll completely switch to linux for cl. because it seems that it has far better support to emacs, emacs extension, cl implementations, libs etc. it is really hard to extend your basic development environment for specific usage in win, also documentation on cl libs usually have explanations about setup on linux. 17:22:11 tic: what was that library that i can use with sbcl to make a modernish looking win32 gui in little time again? 17:22:12 ths, I'm not saying that, rather that because SBCL exists, there is no barrier for commercial adoption. SBCL seems to be usable even in commercial/gov't settings. 17:22:28 division-bell: on top of that you don't have to work in that horrible environment! :P 17:22:34 I prefer netbsd, that way I don't have to play "guess what's different about this distro" 17:22:35 H4ns, hey, did you hear? CAPI was just opensauced! ;) 17:22:41 H4ns, (good point) 17:22:41 nyef: When I see "ask for quote" I usually think of something so big, that your purchase has to be amortized in few years if not decades, like buying a Cray 17:22:45 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:22:50 nyef: if you are a company with say an expert system project which saves a few millions, or a military department which needs some planning system, it is more important to get it done 17:22:58 tic: what, really? 17:23:05 ah 17:23:12 *int80_h* googles CAPI 17:23:15 I'd guess they have income from industry and government mostly 17:23:21 face it, franz is not interested in your business if you can't throw a few thousand dollars at them. 17:23:23 LispWorks has a lot 'hobby' users 17:23:23 H4ns: well, in fairness you COULD do that with GTK 17:23:32 division-bell: I find development in general is much nicer on linux, for a lot of different stuff. 17:23:40 rsynnott, in a few minutes was probably the key here. 17:23:43 maybe not so much for .NET ;) 17:23:49 CellsGTK etc. is rather .... strange. 17:23:51 H4ns: Franz has attractive conditions for developers, DEPLOYMENT is the cost factor 17:24:20 tic: Is it running at all? I tried to get it working several times, and always failed... 17:24:39 p_l, I've gotten the Hello World running. 17:25:22 lispm: i'd not call their conditions "attractive" 17:25:26 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:41 H4ns: they generally want a royalty/percentage of revenue, don't they? 17:25:47 (where that makes sense) 17:25:48 rsynnott: yes. 17:26:07 how do they charge for Allegro used to develop internal stuff, actually? 17:26:09 so if you just make sure to develop things that bomb in the marketplace, the conditions are really great 17:26:11 H4ns: well, you get a Common Lisp with lots of extensions and the source for that for a price that is not that bad, including GUI on windows and now Linux 17:26:15 rsynnott: I don't find that very attractive. 17:26:22 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-176.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:26:24 rsynnott: your license allows you to run the compiler on one machine. 17:26:38 sykopomp: nor do I, particularly, but it isn't awful, and lispworks has a different scheme 17:26:41 or with a site license 17:26:45 Dodek [n=user@87-205-171-196.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 17:26:52 I do think it's a shame that lispworks charges you per operating system 17:26:53 lispm: yeah. site license. 17:27:03 naah, i don't think windows is that horrible, i mean if it was that horrible in overall, people wouldn't use it, linux vs. win is a comparison like cl vs. others, you always know which is better, but you can't pretend like you don't see why the others are chosen. 17:27:25 division-bell, yes they would. Worse is better. 17:27:29 division-bell: in my experience developing anything on windows other than windows-centric C/C++ is a pain 17:27:42 (and Java isn't HORRIBLE) 17:27:43 lispm: thing is: not having a fixed price for deployments is a total show stopper for me. it is as bad as the GPL, only the other way round. 17:27:55 division-bell: assuming windows is 'good' because 'most people use it' shows a complete lack of understanding as to how windows got to where it is. 17:28:04 they are really easy-to-use and after all it is what people want who don't interested in the philosopy of computer science that much 17:28:05 H4ns: lots of people have that problem, some not 17:28:15 hey, is there a CL library that can unpack C structs? 17:28:21 Dodek: Several. 17:28:27 H4ns: but I share your reservation 17:28:30 lispm: i am not going to throw money at them so that i can use their compiler, not knowing what the price will be once i decide that i want to distribute or deploy my applications. 17:28:37 minion: binary-types? 17:28:37 nyef, could you give me their names? 17:28:37 binary-types: Binary-types is a Library for accessing binary files with fixed bit-length code-words. http://www.cliki.net/binary-types 17:28:45 division-bell: I think you're completely wrong ;) 17:28:46 H4ns: it's a common enough model 17:28:54 Typically, your implementation's FFI can do the job as well. 17:28:55 (Qt and MySQL, amongst others, do it) 17:29:04 it can? oh. 17:29:07 lispm: i know that in some environments, money just don't matter. 17:29:19 rsynnott: that is why i use neither of those. 17:29:37 Dodek: Plus it's really not hard to write your own. I think there's even a chapter in PCL on it. 17:29:44 Qt is particularly cagey about talking about money 17:30:04 nyef: binary-types afaik were based on the code in PCL 17:30:19 p_l: I was under the impression that binary-types came first. 17:30:36 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:31:18 hmm.. maybe I messed up, I remember that at least one of those libs claimed to be rewritten after PCL came out 17:31:19 Franz: also offered license with no-cost delivery for Macs, so I guess it is all a matter of negotiation ;-) 17:31:26 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 17:31:36 hmm, in comparison, a good-old simson motorcycle is better than a scouter if we talk about the engine, but most people use scouter, its easy to use. 17:31:37 :) 17:31:39 lispm: yeah, powerpc. abandonware, basically :) 17:31:46 and it looks prettier :) 17:32:08 H4ns, I guess that was some time ago when it wasn't abandonware 17:32:11 nyef, i know it isn't hard, i just don't want to do reinvent the wheel. 17:32:12 *rsynnott* would actually probably have bought a lispworks license during their half-price thing if they had a run whatever platform you want provided it's on the same machine thing 17:32:27 H4ns: don't make my PowerMac G5 sad ;-) 17:32:31 division-bell: windows is not nearly as intuitive as people keep claiming it is. Anyone who's actually tried to *teach* completely new users to use windows would probably figure this out. 17:32:32 Dodek: Why not? Selecting how many sides to have on your wheel is fun! 17:32:34 Well, Windows 7 is quite good. Most windows-related problems stem from bad apps. 17:32:35 i would think franz makes their money on services to corporate accounts 17:32:40 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:32:52 as it is, you need three separate copies for the three big platforms, which is a shame 17:32:55 rather than licensing as such 17:33:08 nyef, i'm reading cffi docs and i can't find a way to convert vector of bytes to struct 17:33:13 a smart client would get them to maintain sbcl 17:33:22 i thought they make most of their money from their triple-store &co these days 17:33:37 division-bell: and lack of familiarity with the alternatives would certainly lead you to believe that windows is actually 'easier'. But how can you think otherwise? You're obviously not genuinely familiar with anything else. 17:33:39 maybe not so 17:33:43 Dodek: What you do is get a pointer to the vectors data, and cast that to a pointer to your structure type. 17:33:47 *JuanDaugherty* doesn't know, haven't looked at 'em in a few years. 17:34:33 hey forget his OS rleigious War. What about my netbsd-is-better-than-linux? 17:34:34 division-bell: "easier" usually means "used this one before". If you try to teach an adult who never had a computer or used one, he will be as good with Unix command line as with Windows Desktop or Apple 17:35:00 division-bell: in any case, you can use lisp on windows, but you have a choice between commercial, or really annoying issues (sbcl behaves very strangely on windows, in particular) 17:35:05 this is the lisp vector i get from network i/o and i think converting it to cffi pointer and then back to lisp struct is not the best way. 17:35:23 this isn't unique to CL; Windows is often treated as a second-class development platform 17:35:36 rsynnott: I think second-class is an overstatement... 17:35:41 Dodek: So run with binary-types or something. 17:35:42 i don't think windows is better, in fact for me it is a mess in someways, but i know that i have to use it as an architecture student, because i can't follow the graphical design environments of windows or osx from ten year back by using linux 17:35:49 nyef, i'll do it then. 17:35:56 I think that's because Windows hides their API. There's a public API, and then the hidden one they want you to pay for in order to use 17:36:00 elderK [n=elderK@218-101-117-145.dialup.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 17:36:10 (the windows version of erlang, for instance, only quite recently became on a par with the others) 17:36:13 rsynott: but there are also examples where stuff looks better on Windows, but I guess more of that is commercial 17:36:14 int80_h: that's no longer the case 17:36:22 oh, cool 17:36:34 int80_h: The hidden one is hidden because they have bad experience with people ignoring "RESERVED" parts in docs 17:36:41 int80_h: I think it also has to do with the culture of windows applications, which I think is pathologically shareware-minded. 17:36:44 Dodek: I ended up rolling my own last time I had to do anything with binary data and network I/O, but I got some bits of the protocol to be handled automatically for me that way. 17:36:44 yes, it has finally gotten there (MS as second class). Though it and java are the overwhelming preference in corporate shops. 17:37:18 (google for some trivial app like an mp3 converter for windows, you'll get plenty of crapware. Do the same for linux/bsd/osx, you'll get a bunch of free apps) 17:37:26 sykopomp: macos applications are even moreso, yet you don't see the same issues 17:38:03 nyef, by the way, would you recommend any portable socket library? 17:38:10 rsynnott: I don't find it's quite the same, and OSX has much easier access to ports of existing free tools. 17:38:21 As for errors in Windows - I once read what kind of stuff they had to put up with in Win95 (because decision makers said "everything must work!") 17:38:26 in programming community everything has a linux port, in fact most of them works better on linux, but in other areas commercial software providers doesn't care linux that much, and this is a real problem for someone who is interested in programming as a hobby 17:38:31 Dodek: usocket, perhaps. Although sb-bsd-sockets is available on a surprising number of implementations. 17:38:37 p_l, like the simcity malloc bug? 17:38:38 p_l: raymond chen's blog has interesting examples of that 17:38:47 win95 has a special simcity mode, for instance 17:38:48 okay, thank you. 17:38:54 tic: ah, beaten to it 17:39:00 rsynnott: More than simcity mode 17:39:11 it actually patched some apps in runtime 17:39:20 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.203.48] has joined #lisp 17:39:24 p_l: ugh 17:39:24 Dodek: That said, my definition of "portable" is "runs on a laptop". 17:39:25 division-bell: most web applications run on not-windows, of course 17:39:31 (or network applications in general) 17:39:36 minion: Advice on portable? 17:39:36 #12017: It doesn't need to be portable, it just needs to work on your system. 17:39:41 desktop applications are becoming a dying breed 17:40:06 no 17:40:23 rsynnott: desktops are becoming the machines to develop on, notebooks to use on 17:40:27 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-158-30.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:40:28 nyef, i meant portable across implementations. 17:40:31 (or should say gotten back to where it was 10-15 years ago by virtue of their failure to monopolize/dominate the mainframe downsizing and net era and the success of linux as a server platform in the google era) 17:40:41 Dodek: I figured. Do you use more than one implementation? 17:40:48 sykopomp: Imagine this - you call an ISV, tell them that you found a bug in their product which stops it from working on Win95 and that you patched it but they need to patch it in future versions... 17:41:14 sykopomp: And by the time you get to "we patched it temporarily" you hear "Oh, thank you, bye" and the ISV hangs up 17:41:26 p_l: :| 17:41:26 in fact, no. however, i wanted to write a library. 17:41:53 usually i don't care much about portability. 17:42:37 christ. Facebook can apparently handle 200,000 UDP requests per second 17:42:40 D: 17:43:39 maybe will see Clojure with a lot of Java-based desktop apps? 17:43:42 That's nothing compared to the root dns servers :p 17:43:43 I'm writing a library right now. Well, the documentation for it. It runs on SBCL, and if anyone wants it to run elsewhere they can port it themselves. But SBCL is a large enough target audience for me right now. 17:44:03 nyef, what library? 17:44:16 *sykopomp* still isn't 'in' on the clojure hype. 17:44:26 dcrawford: usbdevfs bindings. 17:44:28 Why would one use Clojure as opposed to ABCL? 17:44:41 tic: java integration. 17:44:41 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 17:44:46 tic: because Clojure is the lisp of the future 17:44:49 we had the Arc hype lately, I wonder how long the Clojure hype will last 17:44:56 <3 SBCL 17:45:04 Arc is now very quiet 17:45:18 lispm at least clojure has some design to it vs arc :p 17:45:23 lispm, Clojure sounds more sane. 17:45:42 Yeah, but arc sucks. Clojure has some serious thought behind it. 17:45:43 Rich is more talented as an implementor and designer 17:45:53 dcrawford: what do you mean? 'it must have good libraries' sounds like a sensible design choice to me! 17:46:13 clojure seems like it could be most useful in dealing with trying to take advantage of multicore processors 17:46:26 yes, the concurrency model is pleasant. 17:46:36 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 17:47:02 amop ensure-class 17:47:06 Hrm... 17:47:12 there is a Netbeans based IDE for Clojure, I saw 17:47:14 minion: amop? 17:47:15 amop: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See the sepcification of MOP at http://www.lisp.org/mop/ 17:47:38 lispm: emacs+slime! \o/ 17:48:04 MCL+swank 17:48:43 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d830c8.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:49:12 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has quit ["“I am free to use whatever time i want, for example, currently my time is 14:11, I usually add PM as there is always some daf] 17:50:45 can be found here http://www.in-progress.com/src/ 17:52:53 there's nothing in ANSI to get all the slots defined in a class and the way to go is mop:compute-slots right? 17:53:07 no 17:53:26 class-direct-slots and class-slots 17:54:42 compute-slots is something quite different 17:54:58 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:56:54 hum, ok, the doc about it sounded about right 17:57:05 (I get the same output with class-slots in any case) 17:57:09 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:49 jkantz [n=jkantz@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:33 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77.222.151.102] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:03:49 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:04:06 hi cracki 18:04:27 a greetbot? 18:04:41 yes 18:04:50 *int80_h* is a greetbot 18:05:03 -!- elderK [n=elderK@218-101-117-145.dialup.clear.net.nz] has quit [] 18:05:42 -!- BrianRice-mb is now known as BrianRice 18:05:48 someone recently had us deal with a list of ~40 things, enumerated in roman literals. we, being cs students, proposed to do the same to them next time, in hex. 18:06:21 cracki: Binary! 18:06:29 was mentioned too 18:06:34 Negabinary? 18:06:35 nobody said octal though 18:06:43 *int80_h* throws in octal. 18:06:45 Heh. 18:06:50 ternary? 18:06:53 rsynnott: opcodes for faster access to stuff in a byte array. Sure, that matters if all your memory access is redirected through such a byte array. A problem that doesn't exist if you're not going through llvm in the first place. 18:06:55 *int80_h* is a team player 18:06:57 ternary would be fun, yes 18:07:01 an early soviet computer system actually used that, I think 18:07:17 knuth came up with some really neat base for a number system 18:07:21 Lisp Machines had base 8 as default 18:08:33 i'm still looking for a comic of a world where the 4-fingered inhabitants use base-8 instead of base-10 numbers like we 5-fingered creatures do. 18:09:17 babylonians used base 60, presumably just to be awkward and annoy the unicode committee 18:09:38 lispm, wany idea why? 18:09:54 cracki: i assume you've read this: http://cowbird.110mb.com/43.html 18:10:45 heh, nice one 18:12:12 tic: maybe Maclisp used that too ;-) 18:12:29 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 18:13:53 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:15:19 lispm: ah, the great standardisation argument 18:15:30 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 18:15:38 'well, blacorp C used this in the 70s, so we must include it!' 18:15:41 no, the we did that earlier argument 18:16:21 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:16:38 probably help writing an OS, where base ten in chips is not that often found ;-) 18:16:51 Heh. 18:18:07 anyone seen the raytracer videos in full length yet? 18:19:19 I haven't see a froggy comment to that yet, kind of curious ;-) 18:19:29 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:19:45 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:19:47 Whichwhatwhere? 18:20:18 tic: you have seen the raytrace videos? 18:20:48 lispm I'm partway into the third video 18:21:02 vy [n=user@wr527.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has joined #lisp 18:21:05 <_3b> which videos? 18:21:24 guys, don't you read c.l.l or planet lisp??? 18:21:35 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-62.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:21:40 http://home.in.tum.de/~lehmanna/lisp-tutorial.html 18:21:47 too slow 18:21:48 Oh, is it new? I haven't checked Planet Lisp today. 18:21:58 it was on reddit the other day too 18:22:05 *_3b* reads planet lisp, but apparently not often enough :) 18:22:17 Ah, cool. 18:22:36 Yea I watched the first video so far I think, hope the second one's a bit more interesting 18:22:41 <_3b> ooh, downloadable, so i have a chance of speeding them up even :) 18:23:01 a lot of it his verbal though .. 18:23:05 *tic* really needs to fix his b0rked website. 18:23:11 I know that guy, he was my tutor over a year ago. 18:23:14 s/his/is/ 18:23:24 tcr: really? 18:23:43 tcr: he was a pilot and went into CS, interesting 18:24:24 I was amused finding out half a year after the class that he was checking out Lisp at that time. 18:24:49 I find the format a bit too long for me, but I wonder if newbies are watching these videos? 18:25:27 (I haven't watched the videos.) 18:25:29 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a17-087.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:25:32 he corrects some problems in later videos, but there are a few style issues still 18:25:44 it is not easy to see how well received these videos are 18:25:48 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a9b-013.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:25:53 like foo-bar? instead of foo-bar-p 18:26:02 Marco did introduce SLIME, is that widely seen? 18:26:27 I mean if there is an audience, maybe there is some motivation to do more of this? 18:26:42 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:26:44 I think that was widely seen. 18:26:46 I've seen most of the SLIME video. 18:27:02 for example I could imagine that a shorter slime video with less depth would be useful 18:27:04 but I think all those screencasts are a bit long. Splitting them up in shorter episodes would help. 18:27:43 what I like of Alex' video was that he had prepared a presentation which he used from time to time 18:27:58 the ray casting ones are fine if you think of them more as a lecture mini series 18:28:06 lispm, yeah, and also just split up a video in smaller pieces. should be easy to form the presentations like that. Easier to play a small part than to pause/stop-and-remember, perhaps? 18:29:08 I would think for example for slime there could be like 5 chapters with a video of 5-10 minutes each 18:29:20 Agreed. 18:29:27 one could still offer a video that concatenates these 18:30:16 something like video on a chapter of Peter Seibel's book would be also interesting 18:30:16 -!- jlf [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:30:39 jlf [n=user@209.204.171.109] has joined #lisp 18:30:43 Okay, I think my time is up for now. I'll be back when I can. 18:30:45 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:30:58 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-71-181-72-33.cncdnh.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Bye all."] 18:31:11 I wonder how many downloads Alex got 18:32:30 I'm not convinced that spending the time required by such endeavors wouldn't better be spent else. 18:33:12 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181137124.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:33:42 -!- wolfboy22 [i=baumgold@tithonus.cs.brandeis.edu] has left #lisp 18:33:48 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181137124.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:33:52 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:50 -!- baetis-fly [n=baetis-f@pool-96-245-219-99.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 18:35:23 tcr: new blood! 18:38:02 the SLIME video was really influential for me, so I think it's time well spent if you are interested in attracting new people 18:38:11 tcr, how do you figure? I say, give the people cake! 18:38:20 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:38:57 *luis* enjoyed the SLIME video as well 18:39:04 LMAO! luckily this wasn't created a month or three ago, my teacher would neven have believed I wrote mine myself :) 18:41:38 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 18:42:47 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-101-69.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:54 -!- technik [i=lonstein@ohno.mrbill.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:43:31 hrm, is there any way to see if a type is of the kind (member ....) and get what was specified as options at runtime from the type name? 18:43:54 what do you mean? 18:44:23 -!- int80_h [n=michael@h-68-166-221-28.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:47 if I do something like (deftype foo-type () (member a b)), be able to know that foo-type was defined with (member ...) and to get 'a' and 'b' 18:44:56 no, you can't expand types 18:44:58 not portably 18:45:14 that's why, for example, CLSQL has its own type-chasers 18:45:21 nikodemus`, sbcl-only is OK :] 18:45:33 unsupported as well 18:45:57 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:10 the bigger picture is that I want to automatically generate a combobox with all the options for a slot, ideally getting the fact that a) is an 'enum' b) all the options from the type name 18:46:20 maybe there's a more sensible way to do that 18:46:36 minion: logs 18:46:36 hi Fare 18:46:36 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 18:46:42 xan: unportably, you'll have to handle a couple cases too. 18:46:46 *Fare* manages to automate ASDF-to-XCVB conversion (in the simple case of Exscribe) ... YAY 18:47:08 (let ((ctype (sb-kernel:specifier-type 'foo))) 18:47:08 (when (sb-kernel:member-type-p ctype) 18:47:08 (sb-kernel:member-type-members ctype))) 18:47:26 gets you started, but you are really better of not building this on top of CL types, i think 18:47:48 ok, fair enough, that's good advice 18:47:52 what would you suggest? 18:47:53 nikodemus`: that will fail when some of the cases are numbers or characters. 18:48:17 xan: (defmacro def-package-type ...). 18:48:29 *Fare* pushes changes to public repo 18:48:48 hefnr: any idea how to get clim scrollbars to stop resetting back to zero on command entry? 18:48:50 now to automate compilation of the system... 18:49:03 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:49:10 pkhuong: quite. hence my suggestion of rolling a mini-type-system for his needs 18:49:14 xan: What are you writing? 18:49:38 in the long run anything based directly on current type-system implementation details will break 18:49:40 I took he's writing something like an object inspector (for CL itself) 18:49:51 nikodemus`, I guess my problem would be how to cleanly mark a slot in a class with the fact that it's from one of those give mini-types 18:50:22 tcr, a web app, I'm trying to generate the 'edit this item' kind of pages from the class definition 18:50:37 either (defmacro define-magic-class ...) or metaclass with additional slot-definition details 18:51:36 hrm, I see, I'll look into that. Thanks 18:51:49 or use slot-definition-type, but decree that the user must have done (define-type-value-generator foo ...) for each such type 18:52:47 or maybe rather (define-type-selection-rendering ...) 18:55:02 <_3b> heh, one of you reddit reading types should tell me about things like http://github.com/aemoncannon/las3r/wikis 18:56:24 nikodemus`, ah, slot-definition-type sounds great indeed 18:57:12 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054055248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:59:51 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 19:00:20 _3b, looks cool 19:00:48 -!- division-bell [n=Kenan@88.238.43.242] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:09 -!- vy [n=user@wr527.cs.bilkent.edu.tr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:37 <_3b> Fare: yeah, though now that i look closer, it appears to be written in as3, so not quite as interesting as i'd hoped :) 19:01:47 what did you hope? 19:02:07 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-225-101.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 19:02:32 NoorDextor [n=Game450@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 19:02:33 <_3b> something that would either replace what i'm working on, or at least provide reference material 19:03:00 <_3b> it is still worth looking to see how it does things, but i'd rather read lisp than .as3 :) 19:03:34 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:03:54 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:32 lispm [n=joswig@e177144073.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:08:24 <_3b> will have to at least look and see how it dynamically loads bytecode 19:08:42 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:09:14 ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 19:09:42 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 19:10:02 -!- ASau` [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:11:25 <_3b> hmm, he has an emacs as3-mode that sounds interesting too 19:12:33 -!- ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has quit [Client Quit] 19:12:35 bah, existing projects that weren't invented here 19:12:59 _3b: I'll let you know if and when I'll get the time for my SBCL-based idea 19:13:19 *_3b* wonders what sort of 'high-level source-code transformations' the as3-mode does 19:13:27 (and more importantly, permission to discuss the source code with you, since this would be for work...) 19:13:31 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:13:55 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 19:14:02 lichtblau: are you sure you don't wanna write a scheme compiler in a week like everyone else? 19:14:21 <_3b> pkhuong: nah, theres already a scheme for flash :) 19:16:12 *_3b* needs to start working on compiler-in-a-week stuff though 19:16:23 _3b: Where is the as3-mode? 19:16:34 <_3b> http://github.com/aemoncannon/as3-mode/tree/master/as3-mode.el 19:16:39 thanks 19:16:49 <_3b> let me know how well it works 19:16:56 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-bb97306347d1df3d] has joined #lisp 19:17:32 pkhuong: btw, does string-case.lisp have a license? 19:19:13 lichtblau: it's not BSD? 19:20:25 Perhaps I'm looking at the wrong file. Is http://www.discontinuity.info/~pkhuong/string-case.lisp it? 19:20:26 _3b: It looks pretty lightweight, as far as modes go. It's mostly a bunch of helper utilities. 19:20:47 oh right. Thanks for the reminder, I'll slap the legalese on it and added a simpler version 2.0 on my todo 19:21:08 <_3b> ahaas: i saw indenting and font-locking mentioned from skimming it, which is about all i need :) 19:21:24 <_3b> ahaas: though the parser + source transformation sound interesting 19:21:26 _3b: Really, indenting? I'll have to take another look. 19:21:35 pkhuong: Thanks, that would be nice. 19:21:46 <_3b> ahaas: presumably most of the work is done by the parser lib 19:21:49 Yeah, I actually recall emailing with this guy a while bck. The flyparse stuff sounds cool, but I couldn't get it to work at the time. 19:22:12 <_3b> not working would make it less useful :) 19:22:52 _3b: I'll definitely try out the indenting stuff. That's the worst thing about mine. 19:23:18 <_3b> no auto-indent is painful :( 19:23:52 _3b: Yeah, this looks really simple. The indent code in cc-modes is something like 1000 LOC. We'll see how well it works. 19:25:29 lichtblau: updated. 19:26:04 lichtblau: are you still using it for something that would be better handled with a hash table, or was that Xach? ;) 19:27:29 <_3b> ahaas: ah, looks like it implements the parsers in random non-elisp languages, that would make it a bit more complicated to set up 19:27:51 _3b: Wow! Indenting certainly works well enough! 19:27:56 <_3b> cool 19:28:13 *ahaas* is happy about less tabbing 19:28:30 *_3b* will have to install java at some point then :p 19:29:25 pkhuong: that wasn't me (although my uses are also idiotically trivial) 19:30:57 <_3b> any other papers on python than 'the python compiler for cmu common lisp'? 19:32:39 mqt_ [n=tran@c-66-41-46-222.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:40 -!- mqt_ [n=tran@c-66-41-46-222.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:33:11 *_3b* realizes the cmucl site might be a good place to look. 19:33:12 _3b: there are a couple more references on the CMUCL wiki. I'm trying to get a couple undergrads interested in SBCL, so there might be some fresher reverse-engineered documents in a couple months. 19:34:02 <_3b> pkhuong: hopefully i'll not need them by then :) 19:35:28 _3b: but really, M-. and scrap paper works fairly well, especially if you only want a high level overview + detailed information on IR2 -> asm. 19:36:06 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:08 <_3b> pkhuong: mainly just looking for high level design stuff, to get ideas for my avm2 compiler 19:38:07 I need to revive irspect, I think. Nothing beats taking a code snippet and looking what the compiler does to it. (http://www.lichteblau.com/blubba/irspect.png) 19:38:37 <_3b> pkhuong: where is the cmucl wiki? 19:39:26 <_3b> lichtblau: looks interesting 19:39:39 _3b: sexp -> more structured representation (IR1) [source to source for type info, rewrites, etc] -> set of basic blocks w/ operations (IR2) -> ASM. Nothing special, really. (And I realize now that I've totally copied that architecture in my term project; hope that's not plagiarism ;) 19:40:05 *rsynnott* is getting very sick of all these different VCSs 19:40:09 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:20 <_3b> pkhuong: yeah, got that much from the python paper :) 19:40:38 rsynnott: That means you don't like them, so much that you're planning to write your own to add to the mix? ;) 19:41:18 no, no 19:41:26 I just wish people would stick to one or two 19:41:44 <_3b> pkhuong: just looking to pick up any practical details about what sort of things i might want in the ir, what transforms are useful, etc 19:42:01 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:42:07 <_3b> rsynnott: most ppeople probably do, just not the same 1 or 2 :) 19:42:22 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:42:47 _3b: src/compiler/main.lisp, especially compile-component will probably be interesting. Phases are mostly implemented in separate files with incredibly terse overview comments at the top ;) 19:42:51 <_3b> (at least to the extent possible when working on projects where someone else picks the VCS) 19:43:43 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:43 <_3b> pkhuong: that relative to sbcl or cmucl source (or both)? 19:43:52 *rsynnott* should really just give in and learn to use GIT and DARCS properly 19:44:04 but as soon as I do that another one will just turn up.. 19:44:08 _3b: both, probably. 19:44:34 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["bored now, kernelly"] 19:45:00 <_3b> pkhuong: cool, will look at that, found another paper on cmucl site to read too, looks like it might go into more detail 19:46:13 _3b: I assume you found ? 19:47:05 <_3b> pkhuong: nope, had missed it 19:47:39 Good evening. 19:47:40 _3b: I think that's what I misremembered as a wiki. 19:50:02 evening beach 19:50:19 beach: my scroll bars keep wanting to reset back to zero when I enter a command. any suggestions? 19:51:24 slyrus__: what is your :display-time? 19:51:45 rsynnott: I believe we've had the fair share of new CVSs for now. Many people have just learned a new one and won't be changing it in the 5+ years I assume 19:51:53 whatever the default is, I guess 19:52:02 ISTR display-time bit me once before 19:52:47 slyrus__: The default is usually :command-loop, meaning your pane is cleared and redrawn with each iteration. This will typically reset the scroll bars. 19:53:22 ah. I am counting on my draw function being called again, but was hoping that the scrollbars wouldn't be reset. 19:53:32 perhaps I need to rethink the drawing a bit. 19:54:23 slyrus__: You could either manually remember the position of the scroll bars and reset it at the end of the command loop, or you could use a different system. I think for instance if you go incremental redisplay, the scroll bars won't be reset, but don't quote me on that. 19:55:16 josemanuel [n=josemanu@245.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:55:22 incremental redisplay sounds good, but it sounds like 1) some work and 2) something I don't know how to do yet 19:56:30 slyrus__: very little work in fact, at least if you use the simple system with updating-output. 19:59:12 the updating-output example in the mcclim user's guide is a bit light on specifics. time to like at the clim spec, I guess. 20:00:12 That part happens to be quite nicely explained in the spec. 20:01:12 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:26 the updating-output example looked very nice to me. 20:01:26 now my scrollbars don't get autoset to the useful values they had before. but those values were actually only somewhat (and perhaps accidentally) useful. I think I need to learn how to use scrollbars properly now. 20:01:40 more troubling is the visual detritus left by the incremental-redisplay drawing 20:01:58 ? 20:05:17 elderK [n=elderK@218-101-117-145.dialup.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 20:05:31 can you do double-buffered + incremental? 20:05:41 -!- elderK [n=elderK@218-101-117-145.dialup.clear.net.nz] has left #lisp 20:05:58 I can't remember. 20:06:09 ths__ [n=ths@p549AFCC2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:02 slyrus__: You can have problems if your unique-id, id-test, cache-value and cache-test are badly chosen. 20:07:17 eevar [n=snuffpup@127.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:07:56 Anywy, it's bedtime for me, especially since I caught some kind of cold while in Paris. Good luck slyrus__! 20:09:23 Good night, beach. Get well. 20:11:30 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:14:40 *sykopomp* is reading worse-is-better-is-worse 20:14:56 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-62.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 20:18:16 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:19:31 sykopomp: you better leap out of the infinite recursion while you still can 20:19:56 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181137124.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:20:24 thanks beach! sorry, got called away for work. i'll email you a screen shot. 20:21:19 dlowe: this is a nice essay. 20:23:36 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AFA94.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:59 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:26:09 Richard Gabriel sounds so sad and regretful in his retort :( 20:26:37 sykopomp: link? 20:26:47 http://dreamsongs.com/Files/worse-is-worse.pdf 20:26:59 thx 20:27:00 -!- robyonrails [n=roby@host211-200-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Sto andando via"] 20:27:00 he wrote a reply to his own paper on worse-is-better 20:28:14 -!- gdmfsob [n=gdmfsob@94.178.0.182] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:29:07 and there is a reply to that reply, afair 20:29:35 stassats: this man sounds like flip-flopper. 20:31:10 sykopomp: that's what essays are for. You defend sides to try and build a better understanding of the situation. The only slight quirk is that RPG exchanged with himself. 20:31:32 Erm? 20:31:36 -!- ths__ is now known as ths 20:31:48 pkhuong: Which is why I said -he- was a flip-flopper :P 20:32:00 The linked article claims, afaict, to be written by Nickieben Bourbaki (whoever that is) 20:32:07 the one-man programming language community 20:32:08 sykopomp: that's not flip flopping, that's trying to understand things better. 20:32:13 kpreid: that's Richard Gabriel, under a pseudonym. 20:32:19 I see. 20:32:39 pkhuong: he phrases the second essay as a very regretful apology for having said what he did. 20:33:00 I think he is guilty for a philosophical justification of that approach 20:33:16 probably he feels also guilty ;-) 20:33:26 kpreid: pun on http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_bourbaki 20:33:46 Aaah. 20:33:53 I thought it sounded vaguely familiar but off. 20:34:07 stassats: do you have a link to the reply to the reply? 20:34:09 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-170.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:34:18 frankly, the very term `flip-flopping' irritates me. What sort of ideals could make people think it better to be radical than to strive for the truth honestly enough to admit one has been wrong? 20:34:23 given the RPG ran Lucid and was responsible for a excellent Lisp system and then sunk the company with a C++ environment 20:35:07 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.203.48] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:35:57 sykopomp: http://dreamsongs.com/Files/IsWorseReallyBetter.pdf 20:36:09 sykopomp: see the end of http://dreamsongs.com/WorseIsBetter.html 20:36:39 also 'is worse (still) better?' 20:36:52 and 'Worse (Still) is Better' 20:37:07 plus exclamation mark 20:37:08 I don't see a problem with people HONESTLY flip-flopping 20:37:49 let's add: 'maybe worse is not so much better', 'worse sucks', worse is more fun' 20:38:01 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 20:38:08 *sykopomp* cries 20:38:19 it's generally used pejoratively in reference to politics, though, where the 'flip-flopping' is generally a cynical attempt to get support from a powerful minority 20:38:26 I think it cries for a parody 20:38:57 (an example being, say, McCain's sudden embrace of christian extremists in the recent election) 20:39:30 Obama: Economy Worse before Better 20:39:48 stassats: what an utter bullcrap was that? 20:40:13 madnificent: buh? 20:40:16 sam_ [n=Sami__@hoasnet-fe1add00-113.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 20:40:43 rsynnott: On the other hand, there are perfectly good words for changing one's mind or hypocrisy. 20:40:56 given the nasty associations, it probably shouldn't be applied to academics 20:41:03 I think this picture pretty much sums it up: 20:41:05 frontiers [n=jackb@ti0151a340-dhcp0479.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 20:41:06 http://hackvan.com/pub/stig/articles/richard-p-gabriel--good-news/the-rise-of-worse-is-better.gif 20:41:14 (or, for that matter, politicians who honestly change their views based on experience and evidence) 20:41:55 madnificent: was what? 20:42:04 stassats: besides the speed thing (which is hardly an argument for most software), it never finds a reason as to why lower languages are chosen. It only claims that software should be written in a bad manner AND that a good manner can not be done in low-level languages. In logic: low level -> bad design. But it doesn't say high level -> good design. 20:42:14 that pdf 20:43:08 madnificent: proceed to the next reply (or previous) 20:43:10 How to declare a constant in DrScheme? My code is this: http://dpaste.com/100152/ 20:43:24 sam_: it's a #scheme question 20:43:32 okay, later :) 20:43:56 stassats: Isn't DrScheme Lisp? 20:44:11 sam_: it is Dr_Scheme_ 20:44:17 sam_: see the topic. #lisp is for common lisp. 20:44:44 dkcl [n=user@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 20:44:57 the main argument of Worse is better is not speed, its time to market (getting users quickly, etc) 20:45:32 write in C and care of the buffer overflows later 20:45:54 lispm: it's better than waiting for a CL that runs on my 286. 20:46:20 I don't really see how CL is 'the right thing' 20:46:28 (which doesn't really bother me...) 20:46:47 pkhuong: you can get something similar with that Lisp on Flash. 20:47:28 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:47:43 luis: and how long did that take? ;) 20:49:06 I still would prefer that PCs are not cracked with buffer overflow attacks and that basic safety would have been designed in 20:49:27 sykopomp: the right thing depends on what irc channel you are in 20:50:19 in #perl, the right thing is @{$foo->{bar}} 20:50:27 stassats: I don't think I believe in 'the right thing'. I think it's a little man on a cloud that people like to pray to. 20:50:45 and so is worse-is-better, for that matter. 20:50:57 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:52:21 -!- Dodek [n=user@87-205-171-196.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:02:34 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:08:17 Can it be time to debate lisp-1 and lisp-2? I just want to observe. 21:09:20 go read the mailing list archives then 21:15:42 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:16:48 -!- colouragga [n=simon@89.18.164.214] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:54 colouragga [n=simon@89.18.164.214] has joined #lisp 21:19:13 lisp-n 21:19:48 dcrawford: Mailing list archives will require me to click and scroll. 21:19:49 :o 21:20:17 dcrawford: there's no fun in reading it alone :D 21:20:29 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:21:26 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbff35.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:21:32 I don't understand the benefit of lisp-2 21:21:45 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:55 (list list list) 21:21:59 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:22:06 davazp [n=user@100.Red-79-157-95.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:22:11 How is that beneficial? :( 21:22:25 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:02 don't have to name-mangle arbitrarily in ways that might not always be easily remembered/consistent ...etc etc 21:23:29 also helps a lot in simplifying issues with macros 21:23:44 For the latter, how so/ 21:23:44 oh, not this again 21:23:45 ?* 21:24:02 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 21:24:11 Quadrescence: in any case, it is done now 21:24:17 there is no real turning back :) 21:24:27 there is an answer, and it's too tall to fit in this chat line :) 21:24:36 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 21:25:52 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-047-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:43 Quadrescence: i assume you are aware you are asking a subjective question... one can get used to both, list up/downsides of both, etc. cl is lisp2. end of story. 21:26:54 attila_lendvai: I'm aware 21:32:12 Quadrescence, read the paper on Separation of Function and Value Cells at Dreamsongs.com, then The Evolution of Lisp. 21:32:20 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:32:53 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:33:43 wow, someone using *print-case* :capitalize 21:33:57 *dcrawford* shivver 21:34:02 -!- NoorDextor [n=Game450@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["Go Canada!"] 21:34:03 kpreid: where ? 21:34:19 krappie [n=brain@mx.skitzo.org] has joined #lisp 21:34:26 What *print-case* :capitalize does? 21:34:29 yet another Camel-Caps fan? 21:34:36 clhs *print-case* 21:34:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_pr_cas.htm 21:34:44 Beket, try it out! (setf *print-case* :capitalize) 21:34:45 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.247.106] has joined #lisp 21:34:48 fe[nl]ix: output shown in recent sbcl-help mail, from Didier Verna 21:35:35 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 21:35:58 ooh, never seen that before 21:36:00 yuck 21:36:12 Thanks chandler / tic. Is it considered un-lisp ? 21:36:40 froog [n=user@81-234-149-249-no94.tbcn.telia.com] has joined #lisp 21:36:56 Beket: I Find It Even Harder To Read Than ALL UPPERCASE Or all lowercase Style. 21:37:12 It Feels Like William Shatner Is Reading My Source Code. 21:37:13 Beket: well, it's certainly weird 21:37:22 and no-one seems to use it 21:37:27 I didn't like it either 21:38:00 chandler, :) 21:38:16 *kpreid* notes that CLIM autocapitalizes command names 21:38:41 and changes - to #\space 21:38:51 I'd rather have lowercase with the -, personally 21:39:07 hemlock also 21:39:26 slyrus__: I did that (mixed case and #\- to space) for a web app. It was mostly sensible in the context of form field labels. 21:39:28 -!- dkcl [n=user@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:41:18 RU.OS.CMP FAQ #48 21:41:24 Q. What is file? 21:41:28 A. Again? 21:42:05 chandler: you're not German :D 21:42:15 ASau: LoL 21:43:56 youReWelcome ;) 21:45:49 slyrus: I solve this problem by controlling redisplay manually, rather than defining a display function and letting the command loop trigger it. this is mostly to avoid having window-clear called on the sheet, which resizes it and resets the scrollbars. 21:46:22 I've a vague recollection that I presented a hacked version of window clear that didn't do that as a solution some years ago, but I can't remember if that's true, or whether it worked. 21:46:31 hefnr: beach suggested incremental redisplay 21:47:06 in any case, the manual way is to (clear-output-record (stream-output-history stream)), (handle-repaint sheet +everywhere+) or something like that, then draw your new content 21:47:26 slyrus: yeah, incremental-redisplay is the climmy way to do it. 21:47:40 I don't use incremental redisplay. 21:47:41 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:48:15 hefnr: with display-time still being the default? 21:48:47 I think incremental redisplay is probably something I want, but I have to 1) learn it and 2) convince myself that it actually works 21:49:31 slyrus__: with display-time either set to t or nil (instead calling your display function manually when you know the content has to change) 21:49:37 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:45 chandler: haha! Stack Pressure... Overwhelming. Can't... Breathe! 21:50:48 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.247.106] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 21:50:49 slyrus__: there must exist an uncanny valley for software things where they're very close to something I'd design or implement for myself, but different enough to be really disturbing. incremental-redisplay is in that place for me. 21:51:36 heh 21:53:50 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177144073.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 21:54:51 solved my sbcl problem by upgrading glibc :-) 21:56:11 mathrick [n=mathrick@195.116.35.13] has joined #lisp 21:57:53 crod [n=cmell@cad439-031.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:57:59 This made me chuckle a little bit: http://rafb.net/p/Pil6N134.html 21:58:26 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a9b-013.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:13 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:59:46 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 22:00:22 Quadrescence: i guess you're not Warren Teitelman 22:00:52 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:20 interlisp had something like that, but less extreme. see "alternative syntaxes for lisp" in hopl2-uncut.pdf 22:01:40 fusss: That's where I saw it. 22:01:42 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:02:35 agahafad [i=agahafad@gateway/tor/x-14bf596c70575635] has joined #lisp 22:02:44 DCC SEND startkeylogger 0 0 0 22:02:44 -agahafad:#lisp- NickServ - Someone has sent you a memo, to read it you have to type: /server quote memoserv list 22:02:44 -!- wlr_ [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:02:44 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:02:45 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:02:47 antifuchs _3b _theHAM ``Erik abeaumont abend ace4016 Adamant adeht Adrinael agahafad agemo ahaas Aisling Aji-Dahaka akhilleus aking albino alpheus andrerav andrewy antgreen2 antoszka araujo arbscht_ ASau AshyIsMe Athas athos attila_lendvai authentic 22:02:47 azuk b4|hraban Balooga Balooga_ bdowning beach Beket benny bfein billstclair bob_f bobrown bohanlon bougyman boyscared bpt BrianRice Bucciarati Buganini ccl-logbot Cel chandler chawls chii cipher` cky clog cmatei cmm cods 22:02:47 colouragga cracki CrazyEddy crod daniel daniel_ dash__ davazp dcrawford deepfire defn deximer dfox dialtone_ djinni` djkthx_ dmiles dostoyevsky Draggor drewc DrForr dto dublpaws e271 eevar eirik ejs Eleanore elurin emma 22:02:54 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o chandler 22:02:55 -!- agahafad [i=agahafad@gateway/tor/x-14bf596c70575635] has quit [Killed by t ()] 22:03:06 wlr_ [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:14 -!- Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-60468.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["reboot"] 22:03:26 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:28 tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 22:03:29 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.202.117] has joined #lisp 22:04:13 -!- chandler has set mode +b %*!*@gateway/tor/* 22:05:06 Apologies to any users on Tor, but these spam attacks are getting awfully annoying. 22:05:33 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:05:50 -!- chandler has set mode +e locklace!*@* 22:05:53 locklace: Better? 22:06:10 minion: chant 22:06:10 MORE LIST 22:06:18 looks good 22:06:35 Anyone else who needs a +e, just shoot me a /msg. 22:07:00 I'll take the +q on tor off in a few days to see if the luser in question has decided to focus his energies elsewhere. 22:07:09 chandler: mind if I join a bot to this channel that will ping staff if that guy comes back when you do? 22:07:15 -!- chandler has set mode -o chandler 22:07:41 t: Not at all. 22:07:47 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 22:08:03 netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has joined #lisp 22:08:03 ErrantEgo [n=ErrantEg@unaffiliated/errantego] has joined #lisp 22:08:10 t: Didn't there used to be a bot (skii IIRC?) for this express purpose? 22:08:20 chii 22:08:23 That's it. 22:08:34 I don't understand this quote: Pascal is for building pyramidsimposing, breathtaking, static structures built by armies pushing heavy blocks into place. Lisp is for building organisms. . . . 22:08:50 chandler: it's already here but doesn't defend against tor users currently 22:09:00 Quadrescence: you don't have to 22:09:18 Quadrescence: Have you programmed in Pascal? How does the style of programming encouraged by Pascal or a similarly static language differ from what is encouraged by Lisp? 22:09:29 t: Ah, OK. 22:09:45 i fail 22:10:47 Maybe it's because when I think of "organism", I think of an amoeba on a petri dish. 22:11:05 Quadrescence: if you're interested in esoterica, this might be interesting. http://img139.imageshack.us/my.php?image=arabiclispwk9.png 22:11:13 from back in the day :-) 22:11:37 O_O 22:11:44 right-to-lisp 22:12:00 yep 22:12:39 Thehelpfulone [n=Helper@wikimedia/Thehelpfulone] has joined #lisp 22:12:47 -!- Thehelpfulone [n=Helper@wikimedia/Thehelpfulone] has left #lisp 22:13:36 we experimented with various syntaxes and i did the s-exp one 22:13:54 Martinp23 [i=martinp2@freenode/staff/wikimedia.martinp23] has joined #lisp 22:13:58 there is logo, pascal, c, asp.net, html and few other stuff in arabic 22:14:15 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 22:14:19 -!- davazp [n=user@100.Red-79-157-95.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:14:27 Where's my bottom-to-top Chinese lisp? 22:14:43 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:15:09 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has left #lisp 22:15:19 wo meyo zhong guo de lisp 22:15:22 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-62.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 22:15:25 i don't have chinese lisp :-P 22:15:49 too bad, can't type proper chinese. only pinyin :-( 22:15:51 Quadrescence: C-M-X C-T C-M C-M-X my-bottom-to-top-chinese-lisp is probably the command you'll need 22:16:04 *Quadrescence* tries 22:16:09 By golly! 22:16:36 Quadrescence: I thought of adding C-x C-c in it, but it felt cruel 22:16:50 hmm anyone know of a particularily good example code demonstrating use of mixins? 22:17:01 in common lisp that is 22:17:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:17:51 mcclim?.. 22:17:59 keene book has some nice examples 22:18:05 phadthai: mixins are just a way to share common attributes between diverging types 22:18:05 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.79.64] has joined #lisp 22:18:34 If you get a MISMATCH when updating through clbuild, what's the best way to resolve it? 22:18:34 mixins are used all over the place in mcclim. their use in output recording is one example ("The individual slots of a graphics state are factored into mixin classes so that each output record can capture only the state that it needs.") 22:18:58 nice, noting mcclim and "keene book" 22:19:04 I've tried uninstall and then install again, but I still get a mismatch for some packages on the next update. 22:19:17 thanks 22:19:25 if subclassing implies direct inheritance, a "mixin" just means direct inheritance without further strict adherence to the protocol and semantics of the parent class 22:19:42 oh 22:20:14 a class USER might inherit from an ACCOUNT class to implement features like LOGIN-NAME and PASSWORD. but that doesn't mean that a "user" is-a ACCOUNT :-) 22:20:45 true 22:20:50 using mixins to compose functionality for the different pane/gadget classes in mcclim is another example (e.g. (defclass slider-gadget (labelled-gadget-mixin value-gadget oriented-gadget-mixin range-gadget-mixin gadget-color-mixin value-changed-repaint-mixin) ..) 22:21:35 a mixin is just a parent class with an ungrateful child 22:21:59 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:01 they exist only because we have multiple inheritance 22:23:09 they exist because we don't have any formal way to define composition of multiple classes into a new class other than mashing them all together via m-i 22:24:20 Nevermind, the only two that still report MISMATCH just seem to have a difference of trailing slash. 22:24:40 or maybe because some hacker at MIT once had an epiphany at Baskin Robins and thought he need 31 flavors on the Lisp machine 22:25:02 hefner: this is where the add-class method I wanted the other day seemed like it would be useful. 22:25:33 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.2.185] has joined #lisp 22:25:35 if you've got 8 mixins, no need to define 256 classes with all of the combinations, just add-class the ones you need to your object 22:27:40 yeah. that line of thinking makes me sympathetic to contextl. I think there's some crazy gwkingware relevant to that, but the name has escaped me. 22:28:33 hefner: dynamic-classes ? 22:29:16 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:29:42 slyrus__: have you seen http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/lisp/amop-programmatic-class.lisp ? 22:29:45 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 22:30:25 slyrus__: the problem is more complex when the set of classes possible isn't finite. The AMOP's interface seems to mandate a space leak. 22:31:04 thanks locklace 22:33:08 -!- crod [n=cmell@cad439-031.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:33:51 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-047-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:51 Jabberwo_ [n=jens@dslc-082-082-047-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:17 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:35:58 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.137.48] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:37:33 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CCDA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:38:31 fe[nl]ix: right, that's the one. 22:39:17 GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:35 -!- segv [n=mb@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:45:19 crod [n=cmell@cad439-031.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:45:27 minion: logs? 22:45:27 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 22:45:39 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:45:48 *madnificent* doesn't like logs 22:47:13 where to find slime-complete-symbol* to fix this error "funcall: Symbol's function definition is void: slime-complete-symbol*" 22:49:27 slime-c-p-c contrib 22:49:34 grep works pretty good 22:52:32 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless78.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:53:27 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-176.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:54:39 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5acc029b.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 22:54:48 -!- ErrantEgo [n=ErrantEg@unaffiliated/errantego] has left #lisp 22:54:55 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:55:44 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 22:55:57 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 22:55:59 ben_m [n=ben@85-127-251-37.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:57:35 stassats: I'm on windows. otherwise I'd have grep'd. Thanks. 22:58:05 btw, which completion function do you recommend? 22:58:19 leo2007, use cygwin 22:58:40 and poof, grep on windows :) 22:58:49 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-fa94e82d86db3d2a] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:58:57 ok 23:00:18 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:00:47 leo2007: FIND and FINDSTR. This is grep on windows 23:01:24 yeah, it is not as straightforward as Linux. 23:02:07 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-4b7d87296c76b813] has joined #lisp 23:02:30 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:02:54 leo2007: No, it's the same as on linux - people don't RTFM 23:03:00 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@223.pool85-49-171.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:04:12 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@121.pool85-49-169.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:04:21 FIND and FINDSTR are described when you use "HELP" in CMD.EXE 23:05:13 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-62.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 23:05:37 i hate cmd.exe in windows 23:05:45 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:05:56 leo2007: Then use powershell 23:06:24 or load SUA and have all the perks of Unix without bad parts of Cygwin 23:06:58 -!- elurin [n=user@85.96.234.46] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:07:30 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-176.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:10:08 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Blubb"] 23:12:48 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-225-101.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:48 dmiles pasted "IkvmStie.java" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72322 23:16:17 dmiles: >:( 23:16:31 my eyes!!!! burning! 23:17:13 Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:28 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5acc029b.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 23:18:03 oops spelled wrong 23:18:27 -!- Jabberwo_ [n=jens@dslc-082-082-047-163.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:51 gotta figure out the GET line to show line numbers 23:18:54 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 23:19:23 its lisp related 23:21:28 rbohn [n=chatzill@67.106.39.4.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:31 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [] 23:21:41 -!- ben_m [n=ben@85-127-251-37.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["woo"] 23:21:53 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:22:23 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 23:22:46 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@245.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:24:08 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:25:26 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.202.117] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:26:02 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:20 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 23:29:57 -!- GrayMagiker [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has left #lisp 23:30:40 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:50 a-s [n=user@92.81.96.202] has joined #lisp 23:36:03 -!- AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:38 I'd love to find a Lisp mentor. 23:36:55 AntiSpamMeta [n=MetaBot@unaffiliated/afterdeath/bot/antispambot] has joined #lisp 23:37:25 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:42 who will shout "You are doing this wrong" on your code? 23:39:18 kreuter, you seem to have posted, to the SF.net download page for SBCL, a signed message containing MD5 hashes (which are pretty sketchy to begin with) of several uncompressed tarballs available at the same page. It would be a little more convenient just to have detached signatures for each file downloadable from SF.net, but what's more inconvenient is that your public key isn't at . 23:40:08 emma: code. Come here. Ask questions. Instant committee. 23:40:35 emma: join #cl-gardeners, from time to time there are people there helping people with basic questions 23:40:43 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:41:20 emma: how's learning going for you, by the way? 23:42:58 that's cool. 23:43:08 I will do those things. Ty. 23:45:06 kreuter, also, I don't even see your key on any of a sampling of PGP key servers. 23:49:14 how well do sbcl and/or clozure run on PPC linux? 23:49:20 segv [n=mb@72-255-20-161.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:01 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-84-42.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 23:51:40 I dunno about PPCs running Linux, but SBCL works pretty well for me on a PPC running NetBSD. 23:52:18 *sykopomp* wonders how nice a platform lisp might be on a set of PS3s 23:52:39 -!- abend [n=sasha@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit ["Quitting"] 23:53:57 sykopomp: does sbcl run on linux/PS3? I'm in need of computing power for my raytracer :P 23:54:21 afaik, sbcl runs only on 32-bit ppc, while ccl runs on 64-bit 23:54:46 -!- antgreen2 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:54:48 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:58 madnificent: I don't know. PS3 is PPC, though. 23:55:17 There's no lisp compiler for SPUs though 23:55:22 the regulating core is, but the extra cores aren't PPC 23:55:24 at least I haven't heard of one 23:55:38 p_l: that would make the PS3 somewhat useless 23:55:40 running lisp on the SPUs would be dumb anyway 23:55:48 hefnr: how so? 23:56:29 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:56:56 it would be usefull if they were available through an extra library (like cl-opengl) 23:57:26 is it possible to access them through ffi? 23:57:50 stassats: They are accessed by filesystem + few ioctls 23:57:57 there's a lib that abstracts most of it 23:57:59 stassats: AFAIK, they are programmed separately, so that should be possible I guess 23:58:03 abend [n=sasha@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 23:58:55 however, a subset of lisp that could be included inside a Lisp program, which would compile to SPU code would be rather useful 23:59:15 sykopomp: I don't know a lot about the PS3, but I understand they don't have a lot of ram, and ought to be treated as mules