00:10:03 *slyrus__* imagines mc john mc hosting "pimp my compiler" 00:10:36 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 00:13:47 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:18:50 dlisboa [n=diogo@bd2191dd.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 00:19:01 -!- dlisboa [n=diogo@bd2191dd.virtua.com.br] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 00:19:19 mc john lol 00:19:47 actually googling 'mc john' brings mccain first 00:19:57 anyway, ECL looks really good to me; I hadn't looked at it before. Thanks! 00:20:49 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-226-145.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has left #lisp 00:20:54 "Yo dawg, I heard you like lisp, so I put a lisp in your lisp so you can eval while you eval." should be the topic of this channel. 00:21:33 ak70````` [n=user@195.158.102.15] has joined #lisp 00:21:52 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 00:22:09 ?NOT ENOUGH #1=(VAR . #1) ERROR 00:22:10 READY. 00:22:11 # 00:24:37 *slyrus__* finally gets around to unsubscribing from the spamfest that is portableaserve-discuss 00:25:31 how can I learn this from scratch starting right now? 00:25:39 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-047-082.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:51 anfitrion: ¿Qué? 00:26:06 eso 00:26:08 -!- ak70```` [n=user@195.158.102.15] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:26:21 :) 00:26:22 anfitrion: Whoa you probably do speak Spanish. 00:26:35 What do you want to learn? 00:26:35 nyef [n=nyef@72-173-19-205.cust.wildblue.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:38 si 00:26:55 but I wanna speak lisp 00:26:59 I'm back, briefly. 00:27:31 by the way why does lisp sound and look like "lips" 00:27:31 anfitrion: :D I speak some Spanish, so you could PM me if you didn't know something in English. But you might know English very well. 00:27:32 (New Hampshire is fun sometimes.) 00:27:52 brings all kinds of sexual intonations 00:28:13 and for nikodemus, we have: yo dawg, we heard you like dynamic extent, so we put a struct in your struct so you can stack-allocate while you stack-allocate 00:28:18 anfitrion: Anyway, everyone here always recommends that one reads Practical Common Lisp first (it's available free online, but you're urged to purchase a hard copy) 00:28:24 anfitrion: (cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all "ss|s" "Lisp is the greatest language" "th") Just pop that into your person-init.lisp and you're good to go. 00:28:43 make sure to comment it out if you plan on not being a social outcast. 00:28:51 Quadrescence: thanks, however my issue right now is lisp, I am fine with ingles 00:29:01 minion: tell anfitrion about pcl-book 00:29:01 anfitrion: please look at pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 00:29:19 oudeis: It's called that [dead] sexy book. 00:29:22 >:( 00:29:32 minion: tell anfitrion about that-dead-sexy-book 00:29:33 anfitrion: look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 00:29:48 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:53 oudeis: :D 00:32:10 -!- anryx [n=anryx@213.210.175.188.adsl.nextra.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:32:42 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:33:18 minion: Logs? 00:33:19 Logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 00:33:41 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 00:33:58 mm... yes, gentoo has a pakcage with the exercices 00:34:19 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F0A3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:34:21 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:35:50 by the way, I am anti-hard copy 00:36:13 then just send some money gigamonkey's way 00:36:35 I've dowleaded all sorts of books 00:36:42 how much? 00:37:05 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-061-131.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:15 if I have to send money to every open source program I use... I'd be in the streets by now 00:37:15 i don't know, whatever you think is right :) 00:37:50 that's why gigamonkey graciously makes full text available for free 00:38:34 ok I will get to it now 00:38:34 i thought you were opposed to hardcopy for environmental or usability reasons 00:38:44 both 00:39:06 and because is an archaic technology 00:39:21 -!- fschwidom [n=fschwido@94.219.113.169] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:39:39 I love hardcopy. It's actually usable when the power goes out. 00:39:44 I mean we aren't using arameic tablets for a reason 00:40:11 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.141.76] has joined #lisp 00:40:13 but if you are not opposed to compensating people for hard and good work, you can just send them some money, out of your own free will 00:40:16 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:18 the point is, power should never go out, even if a meteorite strikes the earth 00:40:19 nyef: no light. That's been a problem lately. 00:40:32 Candles! 00:40:49 oudeis: I am not opposed to that at all 00:42:25 what OS preffer lipsers :) 00:42:32 -!- ak70````` [n=user@195.158.102.15] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:42:48 I use gentoo-owns 00:44:07 -!- macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["(exit 0)"] 00:44:22 I use gentoo, but I strongly suspect that I'll switch to ubuntu 9.x when it comes out... 00:45:06 nyef: you'll go back to gentoo... just like everyone who attemps to leave gentoo :D 00:45:29 Possibly. There was a time when I swore by FreeBSD, after all... 00:50:52 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:51:24 the only way to leave is in a bochs? 00:51:28 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:51:46 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:53:02 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:56:17 clhs truncate 00:56:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_floorc.htm 00:56:26 God, I hope not bochs. Bochs is obnoxious. 00:56:53 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 00:57:13 davazp [n=user@49.Red-83-49-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:02 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:00:49 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:01:32 *sykopomp* is actually bothering to read c.l.l. 01:01:41 That's an impressive shithole they have there. 01:01:45 I think I'll stay away. 01:02:44 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.141.76] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:03:29 hi sykopomp 01:04:41 sykopomp: it isn't that bad 01:05:43 mogunus: it's pretty terrible. There's an incredibly long thread here about how lisp is worthless for math because it uses prefix notation and parentheses. 01:08:12 missyjane [n=hey@unaffiliated/missyjane] has joined #lisp 01:08:55 sykopomp: well, you ignore those bits. 01:09:28 mogunus: I like that good people post in it. I like Pascal, for example. His posts tend to not be retarded. 01:09:29 esden [n=esdentem@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:09:55 Might contain code to erase your hard drive, but at least not retarded... 01:10:14 hi.. 01:10:19 nyef: oh? :P 01:10:23 can anyone please tell me how to get started with common lisp? 01:10:24 missyjane: hi 01:10:47 missyjane: :| I took down my tutorial like an hour ago so I could finish it. 01:11:01 sykopomp: It was a while ago. He posted sample code for an easy question which, if run without checking, would erase every file on the drive. 01:11:01 missyjane: do you have any experience with programming languages? 01:11:17 nyef: that's just a filter! 01:11:26 I'm sure. 01:11:32 um.. some C, good with php+mysql 01:11:35 (actually, that sounds quite nasty) 01:11:48 little c i should say, sorry 01:11:53 missyjane: are you familiar with general concepts like data structures and the like? 01:11:58 no 01:12:03 hm 01:12:11 data structure sounds like function though.. 01:12:20 heh. 01:12:25 try this: 01:12:31 minion: tell missyjane about gentle 01:12:32 missyjane: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 01:12:53 perffect, thank you 01:13:11 missyjane: it's a bit dated, but it's generally a good introduction to lisp. If you feel up to the challenge, you could try PCL, which is a fantastic text. 01:13:17 so um before i go, what IS a data structure anyway? 01:13:18 PCL? 01:13:21 minion: please tell missyjane about that-dead-sexy-book 01:13:22 missyjane: please look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 01:13:25 -!- esden [n=esdentem@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:13:38 esden [n=esdentem@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:13:50 missyjane: a data structure is just that: some way to structure your data that fits a task better that just having a bunch of global variables with numbers in them ;) 01:14:09 missyjane: both books are available online for free, but at least PCL is great to have handy. 01:14:09 LOL.... 01:14:30 haha wow, you werent kidding 01:14:48 missyjane: it's a great book. What can I say? :) 01:14:58 -!- esden [n=esdentem@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:15:02 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:15:10 esden [n=esdentem@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:15:10 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:15 locklace gave me the second link apparently to start with along with another but i lost the second link.. 01:15:54 missyjane: PCL is probably the most useful, up-to-date text you'll find on lisp, but it expects a bit of programming experience from its users. Gentle Intro is more of a very basic introduction to programming in general. 01:16:05 so, is it true.. if i learn common lisp, i will become enlightened? perhaps even think god wrote the universe in this language? http://xkcd.com/224/ :)... 01:16:15 missyjane: also, I *HIGHLY* recommend you use this http://phil.nullable.eu/ 01:16:31 emacs is a bit of a pain to set up at first, and it's more important that you have something easy to work with from the beginning :) 01:16:31 -!- esden [n=esdentem@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 01:16:51 hm i think i have emacs.. im on slackware 01:16:57 yes you will become enlightened :P 01:17:42 missyjane: I don't like following along with the mystique of lisp. It's not a magical thing that will make you a better programmer. It happens that the way the language is designed, and the things you learn about while using the language are presented in a different way than you'd run into them in other languages. 01:17:48 :) ok i have emacs, if you mean installing it, is that program ABLE = emacs? 01:18:00 So you might end up understanding things in a completely different way, which would be more general at times. 01:18:38 missyjane: emacs is more than just installing it through the package manager. It can be a bit frustrating to set up a full emacs + slime environment, install and configure a lisp implementation, and all that stuff. I recommend you do that *eventually*. 01:18:49 So, given that SLIME is highly dependent on SBCL version, I just changed which SBCL I'm using back to 1.0.11 instead of trying to get a SLIME that will work with 1.0.21. 01:18:57 but if you're learning, you're better off with ABLE, since ABLE provides all those things for you out-of-the-box, without having to install anything at all. 01:19:12 missyjane: i also recommend emacs... if you read a little bit about it first and then try it, it shouldn't be too bad 01:19:32 dto: it's kinda horrible for new people. To be downright honest. 01:19:35 i know 01:19:41 so is common lisp! 01:19:43 ok ill use ABLE first 01:19:44 imo 01:19:54 I find it obnoxious enough to keep emacs+slime up to date that I tend not to upgrade SBCL often at all. 01:19:56 I disagree with your second statement. I think Lisp can be quite intuitive and easy for newbies. 01:20:02 missyjane: my opinion on CL is that I've become a better programmer by learning and using it. 01:20:11 missyjane: but i might be deluded, i don't know 01:20:30 missyjane: perhaps i'm such a terrible and lazy programmer, that I can't get anything done without a powerful language like CL :) 01:20:30 im just curious, why isnt the kernel in lisp? surely that would make it far more efficient? i read that average, for every 20 or so lines in c you can replace it with 1 lisp line, so why not make the kernel smaller and more efficient that way? 01:20:32 nyef: that's strange. I've been consistently running the latest SBCL + slime from VC and have had no issues. 01:20:36 I think lisp teaches you to think clearly (about programming, anyway). 01:20:55 missyjane: At that point you would have a lisp machine 01:20:57 sykopomp: Doesn't that require updating constantly, though? 01:20:58 missyjane: Processors these days are more engineered for executing C-like code. 01:21:04 missyjane: to be honest, that's more a political and public relations issue than it is about any merit/flaw with lisp. 01:21:21 nyef: I update every couple of months, when I feel like it, or when I want to have the latest sbcl. 01:21:33 sometimes twice in a month, I guess. 01:21:46 Yeah, I realized that I haven't really cared to update in something like a year. 01:21:50 but latest sbcl + latest slime has been pretty reliable for me. 01:22:10 instead of trying to match odd versions of each. I update them together. 01:23:25 Yeah, but two evenings ago I was working my way backwards through SBCL releases to find one which didn't fail with clg in a particular way. 01:23:27 ok thanks 01:23:47 So now I face trying to find a SLIME which works with a three-month-old SBCL. 01:24:29 missyjane: good luck, and if you have any questions, feel free to jump in here and ask. 01:24:34 Fortunately, SLIME runs a frequent enough release cycle that I can just pick a tarball from around that time... 01:24:47 will do, thanks sykopomp 01:24:59 -!- missyjane [n=hey@unaffiliated/missyjane] has left #lisp 01:25:06 that wasn't too bad. 01:25:06 nyef: The slime you get when you ASDF-INSTALL swank might work 01:25:26 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:25:30 dto: I really think lisp isn't too bad for newbies. Specially after looking through tutorials for a lot of other languages. Specially scripting ones. 01:25:44 can't you pick a date from two or three months ago and check out that slime from cvs? 01:25:47 *hefner* forgets the magic incantaiton 01:26:04 hefner: Sure, I could... If I wanted to deal with CVS. 01:26:04 cvs --switch-to-something-better usually does the trick 01:26:13 sykopomp: but since the easiest way to learn emacs is to learn elisp, then how bad is emacs for newbies?? :) 01:26:29 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:30 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:26:31 dto: I still don't really know elisp, and I'm pretty comfortable with emacs. 01:26:46 dto: emacs is more about learning a lot of bindings, and learning to handle buffers, and the general environment. 01:26:48 So I just switched back to 1.0.11. It's not like it's any worse than 1.0.21 for what I'm doing now. 01:27:00 dto: which is really not very newbie friendly. Granted, the curve is a lot smoothing than VIM 01:28:06 I claim that all you vcs fashionistas have cost the world a lot more time and trouble than the deficiencies of cvs ever cost most people 01:28:16 nyef: still working on getting a CL X11 server? 01:28:35 tsuru: That's back-burnered a bit. 01:28:48 (maybe it's necessary on the path to ending up with a vcs or two that doesn't such horribly, but I can still gripe about it, and I'm not sure we're there yet anyway) 01:28:54 Right now I'm trying to load my mp3 player so I have music if the power-out continues. 01:28:59 nyef: I see 01:29:20 yikes. on generator backup? 01:29:22 hefner: I've found git's branching to be extremely useful, and it's caused me minimal headaches. 01:29:55 No, over with friends for dinner, and they're off the grid (solar). 01:30:07 sykopomp: that's good. I find git completely opaque and intimidating, and my few experimental attempts to use it have been discouraging. 01:31:02 hefner: that's unfortunate. I don't really mess around with any advanced stuff. Really, I just commit regularly, and make branches for 'big concepts', then merge those back into my personal dev branch. Merge them into master when they're stable. That's pretty much my entire dev cycle.. 01:31:20 sykopomp: so I'll happily switch to git the day someone writes a "git for cvs users" tutorial that actually explains the (extremely basic) fashion in which I use cvs 01:31:34 *rsynnott* refuses to learn these new-fangled VCSs 01:31:37 hefner: actually, there's one for svn users which might be comparable. 01:31:41 svn is quite far enough 01:31:56 hefner: http://git.or.cz/course/svn.html 01:32:03 *nyef* refuses to use any VCS for which there is no existance-proof of a Lisp implementation. 01:32:52 Okay, I need to sign off. 01:33:02 -!- nyef [n=nyef@72-173-19-205.cust.wildblue.net] has quit ["Back when the power is back on at home."] 01:33:53 *_3b* mostly just uses whatever mode looks like pcl-cvs for any new VC :p 01:34:07 <_3b> (is that even the right name for the cvs mode?) 01:36:58 where is a list of common hash reader macro chars? 01:37:51 I don't use VCSs to heavily yet, but I thought that emacs had abstracted various VCSs... 01:37:59 too heavily 01:39:48 ok i guess they are already at http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/02_dh.htm 01:42:58 mulligan` [n=user@e178041205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:45:33 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-216.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 01:46:13 ths___ [n=ths@X4c51.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:46:46 esden [n=esdentem@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:47:30 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:15 radetsky [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-50-227.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:48:18 nyef: cl-darcs, what else is there? 01:50:28 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-216.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 01:51:03 Hey folks. I'm making a list (for personal reasons) of colleges where people are doing research related to Lisp and programming language design. Can anybody suggest existing lists, good sources of information, or additions to my list of "Lispiest schools"? 01:52:52 "Schemey schools" are also acceptable. 01:53:52 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:54:38 -!- smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:55:17 fusss: you missed him. 01:55:21 Rice, Indiana, CMU, MIT; the most prolific, off the top of my head 01:55:48 hefner: oh, my IRC client doesn't show leaving messages 01:55:55 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 01:56:19 radetsky: berkeley is lispy in some parts 01:56:39 radetsky: look at the proceedings of every ILC and see if you can spot a trend 01:56:42 thanks. Even mere votes of confidence are useful. I was already sure about MIT, pretty sure about CMU (what with cmucl and all), but I hadn't thought of, for example, Rice as important to check out 01:57:21 Rice is _sick_ easily the top school for compiler research 01:58:16 slyrus__: yeah, cal was on my list of places to look into more thoroughly. A school only needs to have at least a little cluster of lisp stuff going on to be of interest 01:59:03 radetsky: not very lisp oriented, but here is a list of the major active communities for language research. lisp or otherwise: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~mleone/language/projects.html 02:00:31 fusss: I'm sort of more interested in language-design-related parts of the study of compilers than the OMGOPTIMIZED stuff, FYI 02:00:31 -!- ths [n=ths@X61f6.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:01:04 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-216.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 02:01:57 I mean, I don't think they're completely seperable, but a school having a bunch of top "How can we squeeze a bit more performance out of C?" guys is not so exciting 02:03:06 the "in" thing is distributed and parallel programming, and that's pretty much functional programming. C (or rather Fortran) hasn't been in for the last 10 years. 02:03:32 late 90s research was mobile computing, power efficiency, and security. thanks to java 02:04:14 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-216.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 02:04:16 I suppose, but I'm also not particularly interested in "How can we make Haskell as fast as C?" work either 02:04:45 abstract theory? 02:04:48 maybe it's a lack-of-understanding thing though 02:04:56 lulz 02:06:14 or were you asking if that was my interest? 02:06:15 what part of language theory are you interested in? flip through the bibliography of whatever text you just finished, make a list of the top 30 most impressive works, read the abstracts and see where those people are :-) 02:06:41 if you're interested in theory, europe seems to be churning out more of those than the U.S. 02:07:12 glasgow, chalmers, inria 02:07:40 right (I'd been looking at the pages linked from that site initially to compile my list) 02:08:37 I might have been hasty to ask for help on this, since I think the problem is that I'm not entirely sure what to call the area I'm interested in 02:09:02 get the classics and go through them, then you will have a better idea 02:09:39 perhaps 02:10:33 the _foundation_ of language research, the crap that's proving the richest, theoretically, is imo, Type Theory 02:10:44 I suppose I could most generally describe it as "What makes a good programming language?" 02:11:17 yeah, I've been reading Pierce's book, but that's only a part of it 02:11:42 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:11:45 anyone else find all that stuff painfully boring? 02:12:05 what, TaPL & related stuff? 02:12:17 read SICP, EoPL, van Roy and Haridi, Pierce is good but fuck is it hard (Krishnamurthi's is more palatable) and the new Design Concepts in Programming Languages 02:12:17 yeah 02:12:53 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:12:54 hefner: static typing with no holes makes dynamic typing look like a compiler hack 02:13:16 compilers are hard, let's go shopping! 02:13:33 not so fast barbie, compilers are easy 02:13:47 hefner: I think Pierce is a shining example of the branch of CS with a nasty case of Math Envy 02:13:49 Type systems are hard, buy me a pony! 02:13:51 if you put on your star sticker first 02:14:10 NoorDextor [n=Game450@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 02:14:34 I have Pierce on the shelf, but I've only read a little. I was really more interested in program analysis (decompilers and such), and looking for connections. Even there, the depth of my inquiry stopped at "Oh, I can put things into a lattice. Won't that be fun?" 02:14:49 rigour mortis 02:15:18 hefner: you were trying type recovery? :-) 02:16:00 you might need Pierce for type inference, but you will need God for type recovery 02:16:14 or a good foundation in statistical pattern matching :-) 02:16:15 "Type Recovery (n): The act of no longer programming in ML-like languages." 02:18:09 alright, nuff mental wankery, but to rent-paying PHP work 02:18:35 s/but/back/ 02:18:46 sounds like a depressing transition 02:19:35 y'all have any opinion of UTA? 02:19:46 austin? 02:20:07 that's the one 02:20:34 *fusss* not everyone in here is a yank 02:20:41 keep UTA weird 02:20:48 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-164-128.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:04 they don't need any help 02:21:27 good point 02:21:34 seen some stuff from there, looked good 02:22:09 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:22:13 although I didn't know of any notable english-based schools called UTA. Are there any? 02:22:34 that is, english-based and non-american 02:23:40 acronym globbing is something best done with google 02:23:53 site:edu UTA 02:24:04 that won't get you non-americans 02:24:15 (Except through references on US college sites) 02:25:47 fatelang [n=user@71-14-92-19.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 02:26:06 university of texas at arlington? 02:26:19 yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:26:21 to make (read-from-string (write-to-string form)) work well i need to set *PRINT-READABLY* T amd what other variables? *PRINT-LEVEL* etc? can someone give me a short list? 02:26:46 dmiles: print-readably implies all the rest 02:26:59 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:27:18 kpreid: thanks 02:27:42 except for stuff like base and case 02:27:52 which doesn't prevent readability but needs to match 02:28:07 *print-case* readtable-case, *print-base* *read-base* 02:28:11 might be others 02:28:40 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:28:44 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:28:47 what i am soing is reading the form initially with readtable-case :preserve and then using this to reread with previous readtable-case 02:28:53 soing/doing 02:28:56 -!- eno__ is now known as eno 02:30:55 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:31:03 dmiles pasted "rereadably" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72125 02:31:24 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:31:37 dmiles pasted "rereadably" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72125 02:31:47 for kpreid 02:32:10 #'reread-oldcase look about right? 02:32:36 no 02:32:50 don't mutate the readtable, copy it, modify that, and rebind *readtable* 02:33:16 smart 02:34:07 divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:22 think i should (defconstant *javatmp-readtable* (copy-readtable *readtable*)) and in my #'case-sensitive-read use *javatmp-readtable* ? 02:39:30 something that often bites me is using package that's isn't loaded a module that isn't loaded mid way through a session, and when i load it i end up in manual symbol conflict resolution hell. 02:41:01 would be nice to be able to tell "yeah, for this and all future prompts, resolve the symbol from this package instead of cl-user or my project package. does this make sense? 02:41:15 just an extra restart 02:41:39 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 02:46:44 dmiles: I wouldn't take the current value and store it forever... instead use (copy-readtable nil) to get a copy of the standard readtable, or make the variation of the current *readtable* each time 02:46:55 do one or the other, but don't freeze the compile/load-time state 02:47:32 Kaz annotated #72068 with "Bugfixes, new directive." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72068#2 02:47:34 see the last note 02:47:39 (let ((*readtable* (copy-readtable))) ...) 02:48:00 but I would guess that what you want is more likely a very stable readtable 02:48:48 so (defparameter *javatmp-readtable* (copy-readtable nil)) (setf (readtable-case *javatmp-readtable*) :preserve) is probably what you want 02:50:00 then i only need to (let ((*readtable* *javatmp-readtable*)) .. in case-sensitive-read? 02:50:09 yes... 02:50:36 (note that (copy-readtable) is not the same as (copy-readtable nil)) 02:50:56 ah.. so i should pick out nil 02:51:12 you should read the clhs :) 02:51:21 should/could 02:52:18 but more likely their code using this might might be maniping the readtables.. so i might even have to (copy-readtable *readtable*) inside case-sensitive-read 02:52:32 each time 02:53:09 if that's what the caller wants, yes 02:53:26 what i am going to be working toward is allowing a clojure like syntax for invoking java a .net functions .. by constructing jcall/jstatic/jfiled/etc 02:53:50 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:04 a shorthand syntax for invoking java and .net functions .. by constructing jcall/jstatic/jfield/jclass etc based on some #J reader 02:55:19 ah, this is all inside a reader invocation? 02:55:27 yeah, use the current readtable then 02:55:38 dlisboa [n=diogo@bd2191dd.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 02:55:38 probly inside their (load ...) 02:56:44 so probly i am going to have to at times reread stuff durring conversion to find what it would have meant outside this reader macro 02:58:05 for forms like '#J(thisClient.msgClient (@"(on-login-success ({0}) ({1}))" (str login)(str description)) ) where #'STR and 'LOGIN 'DESCRIPTION have to align themselves to the outer form 02:58:45 thats not Clojure.. but DotLisp.. but going for supporting a couple differnt sytaxes 03:00:31 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 03:00:41 hsaliak_ [n=hsaliak@cm158.epsilon100.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:08:38 AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has joined #lisp 03:12:44 -!- divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:14:18 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 03:14:23 divinebovine [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:32 -!- yhara_ [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 03:19:25 Kaz annotated #72068 with "Bugfix: find-package invoked on package object." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72068#3 03:20:39 crod [n=cmell@cb8a17-151.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:21:10 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:24 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 03:22:30 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:23:34 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a6f-034.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:27:44 -!- ice_four [n=ice_four@host217-43-8-66.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:30:21 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CDD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:02 skrit [n=skrit@cpe-76-88-49-7.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:31:53 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:32:06 yet another blagger using fibonacci, and a poorly written one at that (how can you get that wrong?) to benchmark a lisp 03:32:13 http://antoniocangiano.com/2007/11/30/more-on-fibonacci-oops-sorry-lisp-haskell-runs-it-5-times-faster/ 03:33:02 fusss: it's a mod-2^32 fibonacci too ;) 03:33:04 ... 03:33:09 yep 03:33:14 unbeleivable 03:34:10 you don't see compiler hackers running around benchmarking the performance of WordPress vs Drupal using a geocities page. why do phony blowhards insist on being language specialists? 03:37:35 -!- radetsky [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-50-227.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:37:52 I don't get it. 03:38:15 Why does he keep talking about "using two cores"? 03:38:55 his last reply to that post contradicts the title of his post :-) 03:39:16 I mean, it seems like he thinks that using more than one core is a magical thing that the programming language does. 03:39:23 But even haskell needs hints for that? 03:39:27 "oops, our silly tests can't benchmark the two implementation", yeah, that's why your blog CMS thinggie has an "edit" button 03:40:48 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:40:52 I mean... that's what threads are for, yeah? 03:42:22 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:43:02 he means implicit parallelism; compiler takes serial code and runs parallelizable parts on different cores 03:43:34 smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:37 Okay. But I don't see where he's getting the idea that SBCL should be implicitly parallel? 03:43:43 I mean, that's not even part of CLHS. 03:43:49 meager last minute performance hack to make up for yours spent in the editor appeasing a sadistic compiler, methinks 03:43:58 s/yours/hours/ 03:44:38 -!- NoorDextor [n=Game450@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["Go Canada!"] 03:44:42 implicit parallization is rarely something promised by the language spec, but compilers sometimes do that. 03:45:18 parallelising fib makes Al Gore sad. 03:45:40 Is implicit parallelism implicit if you need to give the compiler hints? 03:46:05 is implicit type inference implicit if you need to give the compiler hints? no. 03:46:21 -!- smanek [n=smanek@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:46:45 Ugh, the more I think about it the more nonsensical it becomes. 03:47:05 -!- fatelang [n=user@71-14-92-19.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:47:19 fatelang [n=user@71-14-92-19.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:49:40 depends on whether you define it as 'parallelism you didn't ask for' or 'parallelism where you don't explicitly divide the task' 03:50:15 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F9CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:51:16 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-101-69.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:31 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 03:55:07 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:55:22 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:55:49 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:59 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:03:18 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a18-179.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:05:06 I've seen this post. Ugh. 04:05:32 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a17-151.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:07:23 -!- wasabi__________ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:07:47 Lisp seems to have a really bad reputation. 04:08:12 I was talking to new professor guy at hampshire, and I told him that I would most likely code the UI for our application in CL. 04:08:24 mogunus: it's because we're all such assholes 04:08:30 There's a lot of ignorance about it. Even amongst people who are supposed to be the 'in' crowd in the programming language world (haskellians) 04:08:37 He looked at me like I had five heads, said this would be "terrifying," and recommended C++. 04:08:45 mogunus: hahahahahhha 04:08:54 I KNOW 04:09:01 mogunus: you mean the computer vision guy? 04:09:26 I wasn't about to argue with the guy, so I just dtopped it, and said that I'd do whatever seemed easiest after looking at all the options in depth with him. 04:09:35 Yeah, I mean computer vision guy. 04:09:37 -!- appletizer [n=a@82-32-120-59.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:10:01 mogunus: this might be a good time to play around with McClim! :) 04:10:20 sykopomp: ugh, no. 04:10:26 It has to be opengl 04:10:36 because the UI is going to be layered on top of videoorbits. 04:10:39 oh 04:10:43 I'm just going to hack something simple together. 04:10:48 that should be fine, yeah 04:10:53 Would that the opengl back end for CLIM worked. 04:11:19 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 04:11:35 yeah, it doesn't yet, last I checked. 04:11:44 although it seems like it's been getting a lot of work put into it. 04:11:55 every time I update mcclim, there's some opengl changes as the highlight of the pull. 04:12:08 Ideally, after a proof-of-concept with a pure opengl GUI, I could do it in clim 04:12:11 oh, really? 04:12:15 That would be *awesome* 04:12:34 mogunus: check with the usual mcclim crowd, I guess, or check out their list. 04:12:46 I would rather spend funding on the UI itself, instead of spending it on doing mcclim-> opengl. 04:13:58 He was really impressed with my resources on the eyetap though, so we're putting a paper together for an HCI journal and then we're going to try and get some funding to build devices. 04:14:32 *jealous* :( 04:14:59 -!- davazp [n=user@49.Red-83-49-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:15:03 Dude you can totally try it. 04:15:08 Once we get the thing built. 04:15:20 oh. That's cool too. 04:15:26 I meant mostly working on a project like that. 04:15:31 Oh. 04:15:32 Ugh. 04:15:37 I actually don't even like the project. 04:15:45 huh? O.o 04:15:45 I'm trying to get him to do most of the work. 04:15:51 hahahaha 04:15:59 I don't care about interfaces, I want to do statistics and macheine learning. 04:16:04 give him C++, I guess he'll be happy. 04:16:16 then again, didn't they already write RWM? 04:16:22 My strategy is, I get him to finish up the video-orbits stuff. 04:16:25 (their window manager thing) 04:16:27 RWM is... icky at best. 04:16:35 that's a pity :( 04:16:39 I'll write a CL gui toolkit on top of that. 04:16:55 And then experiment with offering API's for collaborative reality overlays, etc. 04:17:44 Because it's really the sort of thing that lisp would be great for. 04:17:56 I want to use ContextL for rooms :-) 04:18:27 that would require hard-coding of each room as its own layer O.o 04:18:31 right? 04:18:36 Really? 04:18:50 I guess you can have a single in-every-room layer 04:18:56 and inherit from that for specifics 04:19:06 (I think contextL does layer polymorphism?) 04:19:14 Yeah, that's what I want. 04:19:23 that sounds pretty neat 04:19:43 eyetap = love 04:19:50 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:19:52 but mann basically stopped working on them 04:19:52 eyetap = absolutely required 04:20:03 And if I don't do something about it, who will? 04:20:07 and in LISP! Ultimate hackable device. 04:20:19 (that capitalization is out of excitement -- before I get jumped on) 04:21:44 It's ana amazing idea that never got fair play. 04:21:56 Partially because of how... weird and hard to interact with Mann is. 04:22:26 "look at my shiny water noise maker thing. You put the fingers on the hole and it makes happy-making sounds." 04:22:32 "ooooh aaahhh" 04:23:17 Yeah, I don't even know. 04:24:23 repnop [n=Mage@adsl-69-225-12-66.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:59 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:34:07 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:38:10 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit ["leaving"] 04:38:43 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 04:41:21 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:50:20 missyjane [n=hey@unaffiliated/missyjane] has joined #lisp 04:52:05 -!- mulander [n=user@nat-4.interq.pl] has left #lisp 04:56:17 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 05:06:01 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 05:10:38 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:14:00 sohum [n=sohum@114.72.184.99] has joined #lisp 05:15:41 quick question: I'm using sbcl, and slime + C-c C-k to compile. when I ask for a macro to be expanded, sbcl gives me a {AEA77FD}-type identifier, which I assume is the compiled-id. How do I stop that? 05:16:42 sohum: that sort of identifier is usually reserved for objects that can't be printed readably. What would you rather read? 05:17:16 ahhh, sudo, how I love thee. "me ALL=(ALL) ALL", the most amazing of all expressions. they can never take my root away. 05:17:23 the expanded lambda form? 05:17:35 # 05:17:51 is what it says. I'd like to see what the actual lambda form is 05:18:11 -!- Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:18:23 Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has joined #lisp 05:18:24 sohum: you can't. It's not an s-expression, but a function. If you're really expanding a macro, the macro is written incorrectly. 05:18:53 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:19:02 Ashy [n=User@220.157.86.160] has joined #lisp 05:20:24 pkhuong: is it possible to view functions, then? 05:20:43 sohum: i doubt you want that. 05:21:10 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:22:17 pkhuong: because what the macro returns is a function. I'm (macroexpand-1 (bla)), where (defmacro bla () `#'(lambda (cd)...) 05:22:34 sohum: no, macros do not return functions; they return s-expressions. 05:22:49 You can't even portably compile-file that sort of code. 05:23:52 hmmm 05:24:01 sohum: the problem is that you didn't quote (bla). By the time macroexpand-1 executes, (bla) has already been macroexpanded and evaluated. 05:24:05 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:24:11 You want (macroexpand-1 '(form)) 05:25:40 aaah. interesting. 05:25:47 that makes sense 05:28:16 pkhuong: is there a way, then, to pull up the definition of a function at the repl? 05:29:13 sohum: function-lambda-expression might work, but is not guaranteed to do anything. Functions are not meant to printed so that they can be read back in. 05:29:24 -!- fatelang [n=user@71-14-92-19.dhcp.stls.mo.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:30:04 -!- hsaliak_ [n=hsaliak@cm158.epsilon100.maxonline.com.sg] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 05:30:05 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm158.epsilon100.maxonline.com.sg] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 05:31:07 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:29 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:32:12 pkhuong: why not? the definition of a function is just an s-expression, right? 05:33:04 no. Functions close over arbitrary objects. 05:37:09 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:06 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 05:42:40 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a18-179.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:42:58 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a18-179.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:44:35 pkhuong: I keep on wanting to write and read functions though 05:44:43 pkhuong: does common-cold do that yet? 05:45:27 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:45:28 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:46:40 mogunus: that's the very point. The macro is a bit wrong, though, doing side effects during macroexpansion that it should make at load-time. 05:47:26 Depending on your needs, there may be simpler options. I'll probably go back on that later (even though I have much simpler needs, since I can assume a consistent heap) 05:48:05 My needs (which were put on hold about six months ago) were to push functions out to a network of lisp computers. 05:48:17 And it would be nice if those functions could also be closures. 05:48:45 mogunus: good then, we have similar needs. We can do better than common cold if you can start processes from a common core. 05:49:16 pkhuong: Theoretically, the core would have the client/slave code 05:49:26 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:49:33 pkhuong: and a "master" computer would be used to push code and data out to the slaves. 05:50:58 as some sort of nightly thing, or on demand? 05:51:09 On demand. 05:52:48 with a requirement that all machines be updated at the same time? 05:53:31 Not at the exact same time, I mean, they could go into a queue or something, but they would all need to be updated so the code could start to run. 05:54:01 My professor wants a mostly automatic grid computing system in lisp. 05:54:07 ah, I see 05:54:22 Many of his problems are embaressingly parallel. 05:54:45 But, you know, also huge. 05:54:47 *rsynnott* just needs to keep code the same, with manual updates, on three servers, so far, far easier problem :) 05:55:03 Ugh. I'm jealous. 05:55:17 I'm suppose to write a physics engine for this imaginary platform that I am also supposed to write. 05:56:19 on the other hand I have to deal with horrible DATABASES, so it all evens out :) 05:56:50 *rsynnott* has just spent the last couple of days convincing elephant, and then postgres, to give up dead space 05:56:59 That's horrible. 05:57:09 I don't know nearly as much about real databases as I should. 05:57:45 (my own fault; I should have read the elephant postmodern source before I started using it, but I was in a hurry) 05:58:19 as it was, I didn't notice the issue (it's extremely conservative about deleting serialised slot entries) until it had become a problem 05:59:23 Good morning. 05:59:59 Kaz annotated #72068 with "Syntax and semantic changes." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72068#4 06:00:12 mornin' beach 06:00:27 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:26 rsynnott: that's just... intensely unfortunate. 06:02:03 oh, well, fortunately it wasn't too hard to fix once I knew it was happening 06:02:04 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:02:10 -!- divinebovine is now known as holycow 06:02:27 divinebovine [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 06:02:36 NO 06:02:47 ...wrong channel 06:03:35 ? 06:03:48 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 06:04:42 karlw [n=user@dsl081-068-221.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:22 is anybody running ECL on WinXP 64-bit? 06:08:33 everything works fine except C-c C-k in SLIME 06:08:57 tries to build a .fas (renamed .dll I presume) and dies on the load 06:08:59 mogunus: with sungrid or some other cluster system, it makes more sense to deploy new functions as fresh cores (except maybe for debugging) even though we can pass arbitrary data around; closures are hard to print, but much saner to pass around than executable code. 06:09:02 loading the .lisp works fine 06:09:43 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has quit [] 06:10:57 pkhuong: I see. I was hoping to be able to do everything from a lisp environment. 06:10:58 mogunus: so I would push code via SGE's queue, but let my parallel programs send closures arbitrarily. 06:11:06 I don't see the point of doing that. 06:11:22 "The application or DLL .....\ECLA3.tmp is not a valid Windows image. Please check this against your installation diskette."(lol) 06:11:54 but that's the real error on .fas load 06:11:55 It's the same issue as with image-based development; I prefer working with external files. 06:12:21 it might be desirable from the point of view of debugging stuff that you wanted to run on your platform, I suppose 06:12:52 rsynnott: right, for debugging, but not for normal deployment. And, even for debugging, I'd rather have my stuff running locally. 06:13:50 The problem here is the debugging and normal deployment are hard to untangle in my environment. 06:14:20 Has anyone messed with F2CL lately? 06:14:21 mogunus: in one case you're trying to get things working, in another you're speeding them up by 50. 06:15:00 pkhuong: One of his complaints, though, is that turnaround time on testing stuff is very slow. 06:15:27 mogunus: could you test on a single local image, and then deploy to your cluster? 06:15:34 mogunus: how much of that is development time or just waiting on the queue? 06:15:54 *rsynnott* is fascinated to learn of f2cl's existence :) 06:16:33 pkhuong: a lot of the time is spent waiting for physics simulations to finish. 06:17:10 pkhuong: but in many cases they had undesirable parameters, not enough instrumentation, develop unexpectedly, etc etc 06:17:45 He wants the whole thing to evolve drastically faster so he can get results then modify code faster. 06:17:52 mogunus: that's not affected by debug locally, and only then push the computation to the cluster. 06:18:41 debugging on a cluster is a PITA and a waste of resources; you and your sysadmin want to do it locally. 06:19:27 pkhuong: hm. fair enough. 06:20:22 pkhuong: that does make much more sense. I guess I can get him to use SGE or something to push out images. 06:20:30 Maybe write a script that will make them. 06:21:03 I was assuming you already had to share a cluster through some queueing system or another. 06:21:14 Ugh, no, actually. 06:21:18 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 06:21:25 The cluster at our school is terrifyingly badly managed. 06:21:42 mogunus: what, you and everyone else just has ssh access on 40 boxes? 06:21:49 Actually, yes. 06:21:53 Me and everyone who asks for it. 06:22:05 Almost nobody uses it. 06:22:31 heh, I seem to remember some postgrad, apparently wihout permission, decided to use two labs of slow linux desktops to run a hefty clustered java thing 06:22:38 (when I was in college) 06:22:51 took a few months before anyone got around to stopping him 06:22:58 Seriously, I've been looking at usage stats, and it's almost at zero. 06:23:06 Every now and then the anaimation kids do some rendering. 06:24:08 Which is why my professor wants the whole parallel lisp thing... he would basically havve the cluster to himself for evolutionary computing stuff. 06:24:39 lisp + erlang's threading & network model would be my nirvana 06:25:07 I thought there was a library for that? 06:25:41 there's a sexpr frontend to erlang 06:25:47 mogunus: i'd still dump fresh images for normal computations. Sounds more stable than modifying dozens of images incrementally. It's just like files VS image, but n times worse. 06:25:47 I'm in college now, and I'm trying to evangelize my engineer friends. 06:26:01 there's a library which fakes erlang-like process interaction to an extent 06:26:17 rsynnott: with shared memory and threads (: 06:26:24 but the underlying processes are just whatever the host lisp's processes happen to be 06:26:28 (usually OS threads) 06:26:34 and does it do liveness checking? hot code update on checkpoint? 06:26:48 pkhuong: that does sound a lot more sane. 06:26:54 so it's not really that practical 06:27:00 Phoodus: cl-muproc 06:27:08 minion: cl-muproc? 06:27:09 cl-muproc: CL-MUPROC is "a Common Lisp library which strives to offer some of the multiprocessing abstractions found in the Erlang programming language". http://www.cliki.net/cl-muproc 06:27:37 Like "Well, you can use functional style with lazy data structures to massively parallelize simulations" 06:27:39 So, if I asked for it, I could put SGE or really anything on the cluster that I want. 06:27:52 karlw: really? how? 06:28:06 What would people recommend for managing the images? 06:28:13 karlw: that isn't the first thing that springs to mind when I think of cl :) 06:28:23 anyway, nobody's using ECL on Windows 64? 06:28:43 mogunus: the sysadmin who guided me the most through all that uses a couple python scripts; whenever he makes a change to the logic (frequently) or to the client/server code (very rarely nowadays), he just restarts all the processes. It takes seconds. 06:28:49 Phoodus: are you using a 32bit or 64bit one? 06:29:03 If 64bit, you could try a 32bit one; it's likely better-maintained 06:29:13 (though I've never used ecl on anything other than macos) 06:29:55 I got the ECL source. It doesn't say 32 or 64 06:30:06 you compiled it, then, presumably? 06:30:20 yes, with cl.exe 06:30:23 from the makefile 06:30:58 are the binary releases of ECL somewhere? 06:31:03 s/the/there/ 06:31:09 pkhuong: could I actually just use lisp to do that? write a program to take the logic, bundle it into an image, and scp it out everywhere? 06:31:27 mogunus: no NFS? 06:32:07 pkhuong: or NFS, whatever *nix thing that the cluster admin prefers for moving files between computers. 06:32:23 ah, apparently it doesn't even support amd64 on windows 06:32:48 but windows 64 can compile and run 32-bit apps just ifne 06:32:51 Is there a really nice solution for dealing with *nix files from lisp? moving, deleting, etc? 06:32:56 Phoodus: yep, should do 06:33:07 -!- dlisboa [n=diogo@bd2191dd.virtua.com.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:33:17 mogunus: with nfs, you can just overwrite when s-l-a-ding and restart the processes. 06:33:19 mogunus: nfs is probably more convenient; you'd just put your image in an nfs share and run it from there on each machine 06:33:32 karlw pasted "Lazy structures" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72128 06:34:11 (the one downside being the absolute chaos generally caused if the nfs server goes down :) ) 06:34:43 -!- missyjane [n=hey@unaffiliated/missyjane] has left #lisp 06:35:22 Phoodus: what happens if you do (compile "bla.lisp") (load "bla") 06:35:42 karlw: It looks like you are using Elisp indentation as opposed to Common Lisp indentation. 06:35:56 pkhuong: See my paste. Now I just need to write lazy-defstruct. 06:36:10 karlw: the `else' branch of the IF should be aligned with the `then' branch. 06:36:19 karlw: how does that help with parallelism? 06:36:30 pkhuong: so, send a "kill" signal to the slaves, and then s-l-a-d from the master, and re-run the sbcl process on all slaves? 06:36:33 rsynnott: while we're on the topic, are concurrent writes via NFS safe? (I'm fairly certain I have a race condition in my code, but it's not really a problem IRL ;) 06:36:37 karlw: also, you can use zerop instead of (= ... 0) 06:36:45 pkhuong: what makes sense for the last part? 06:36:52 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:36:59 pkhuong: I'm not sure. But I would be cautious, especially if client and server are linux 06:37:22 beach: I use Emacs lisp-mode (not that it really matters). 06:37:32 karlw: yes, it does. Indentation is different. 06:37:36 karlw: arguments to a function call are usually either aligned horizontally (if there is room) or vertically, but not mixed (unless you have keyword-value pairs) 06:37:40 rsynnott: load works file, from a lisp 06:37:45 karlw: it does matter. 06:37:53 what's the syntax for compile? It keeps wanting a symbol, not a pathname 06:37:58 karlw: you'd be better off using a common lisp mode or ideally slime 06:38:06 Phoodus: oh, sorry, compile-file 06:38:22 if you're doing load on a .lisp file, ecl may be using its interpretter 06:38:35 compile-file creates the .c and .h, tries to compile and dies now 06:38:43 which wouldn't expose any issues in loading dlls there might be 06:38:44 oh, weird 06:38:53 does it give any vaguely useful messages? 06:38:53 r0otSlinky [n=ro0tSlin@97.100.245.29] has joined #lisp 06:38:54 *Phoodus* reverts his makefile changes and rebuilds ECL 06:38:56 So, uh, that makes the semantics different? 06:39:13 karlw: no, it makes your code painful to read. 06:39:27 You're also missing out on useful editing features by not using slime. 06:39:27 Okay, sorry. 06:39:30 karlw: If you are submitting code for others to read, it is polite to respect the conventions that those others expect. 06:39:49 you're also needlessly shutting yourself off from useful tools provided by more suitable modes 06:39:57 nowl [n=nowl@c-24-128-153-54.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:40:01 rsynnott: loading a .lisp file works just fine. It's just that's not available in SLIME. Only C-c C-k, which desparately needs to compile it :-P 06:40:34 Phoodus: any interesting error message before it dies? 06:40:53 no, there's almost no error reporting 06:40:59 Phoodus: C-c C-k is Compile/Load file. you can slime-eval-buffer. 06:41:13 is there a keystroke for that? 06:41:13 (ideally, you should start a repl independent of slime to test for this; if the error is nasty enough, it'll be dead before it's able to talk to slime 06:41:33 Oh, I don't suspect slime. I'm fairly certian it's ECL 06:42:07 yep, but if you're accessing it through slime you may not be seeing any error that ecl might be giving 06:42:15 it's just that with slime, I can drag my file into there and C-c C-k, instead of keying in (compile-file #P"really/long/omg/wtf/bbq/path.lisp") 06:42:23 true 06:42:26 I'm mostly experienced with Scheme (where nobody cares about coding style because it's too "practical" :-) ) 06:42:32 but even *inferior-lisp* is uneventful 06:42:47 *Phoodus* tries it from ECL straight 06:42:49 Phoodus: oh, yep, not saying you shouldn't use slime for develpment 06:43:07 it's just that for debugging your immediate problem, slime might be hiding things 06:43:47 karlw: also, 't' is almost universally used lower-case (minor quibble) 06:43:51 mogunus: it might be simpler to use a tiny script that detects when the image changes to kill the lisp and restart it. You want to be robust against disconnections, crashes, etc. anyway. 06:44:02 *mogunus* nods 06:44:42 in terms of being robust, I'm doing a "give each computation a key and check all keys before declaring finished" on the server. 06:44:46 I mean, the master. 06:44:59 rsynnott: compile works under ECL raw 06:45:26 load says gives me unbound variable errors 06:45:35 (defvar else t) 06:45:41 mogunus: the work will be at the protocol/logic level. Make sure you have well isolated work units, etc. 06:45:44 pragma_ [n=foo@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 06:46:16 "put work units that seem to ahve failed back into the queue" 06:46:18 etc 06:46:31 The same two symbols will always be #'eq, correct? I'm wondering if I can use symbols to key a hash table. 06:46:32 Phoodus: oh, that's weird 06:46:40 yeah. Getting botched responses isn't as much of a problem as not getting any. 06:46:47 rsynnott: and in SLIME I get the same behavior now 06:46:47 (and what :test I should pass the table) 06:46:48 weird 06:46:54 very 06:47:01 the logic is simple but hopefully not insane: work queue on the master, and slaves query for work until there isn't any left. 06:47:12 well, unbound variable warnings probably just indicate problems in your code 06:47:13 I presume ECL is order-dependent on defuns :-P 06:47:21 that really sucks 06:47:26 cl is in general 06:47:31 well, CLISP wasn't 06:47:33 oh, and they only query after the master has pushed the "we're computing something" message out to the whole swarm. 06:47:53 Phoodus: clisp is less inclined to warn on just about everything than most 06:48:15 but this is an error, and it stopped loading the .fas 06:48:28 I can evaluate the file just fine, no ordering dependency errors 06:48:41 that's pretty bad that there's a difference there 06:48:49 for instance, in clisp you can happily do (setf bla "something") where bla is undefined 06:48:58 this is using a defun before it's defined 06:49:00 each work unit has an id, and the master doesn't declare finished until all id's are accounted for. 06:49:02 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:49:03 most other impls will shout at you aabout it :) 06:49:09 Phoodus: yep; don't do that 06:49:15 then why doesn't it shout when I eval the file? 06:49:30 does it not? 06:49:33 mogunus: yes, that's the basic idea. When we do evolutionary computing, we like to run local ``hills'' and only skim the best to the master. You don't want to communicate every second. 06:49:34 it doesn't 06:49:35 -!- nowl [n=nowl@c-24-128-153-54.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:49:40 no warnings or errors, runs fine 06:49:46 possibly it's more accepting of evaled files, which would seem weird but is possible 06:49:55 The only reason I'm moving to ECL is to get threads 06:50:00 I wonder how far off CLISP threads are 06:50:07 rsynnott: evaled file might be evaled instead of compiled. 06:50:15 yeah, that too 06:50:21 Phoodus: just because clisp allows you to do something bad doesn't mean you should :) 06:50:45 so I take it to have circular reference, you need to do nasty trickery? 06:51:29 anyway, our coding style has been somewhat top-down, where the main funs are on top, and create anything it needs under it. It's much clearer to read that way 06:52:20 I think most impls will at least give compilation warnings on that 06:53:01 Phoodus: for mutually recursive functions, compile-file shouldn't warn. 06:53:10 this isn't mutually recursive 06:53:19 hmm, only style-warning in sbcl, actually 06:53:21 and I reordered the function it seemed to complain about, and still get the same error 06:54:21 rsynnott: it's legal code, so no warning, and file compilation is supposed (per the spirit of the spec) to take that sort of thing into account. In fact, it's allowed to perform pretty much arbitrary optimisations for functions within a single file. 06:54:27 actually, this is mutually recursive 06:54:36 it's a prolog based off of Graham's example 06:54:47 so prove calls prove-simple, which can call prove to recurse 07:07:46 duh 07:07:51 the .fas is old 07:08:14 from inside xemacs, the ECL that's started doesn't have the visual studio build path stuff from vcvars.bat 07:08:27 so it can't find cl.exe 07:08:44 this isn't a 64-bit issue at all (right now) 07:08:55 so how do you guys use ECL from SLIME in Windows? 07:09:04 ah, should just be a case of setting the path correctly, then 07:09:10 is it cygwin based? 07:09:17 "visual studio" 07:09:24 (I believe that requires you to sacrifice a goat or something in windows) 07:09:27 I am always surprised that people still use Windows. 07:09:33 rsynnott: the bat file to set up the build environment does a lot 07:09:37 oh xemacs use cygwin? 07:09:51 no, xemacs is a native windows build 07:10:20 beach: I am always surprised that people don't support Windows 07:10:34 I mean, ECL is the only open-source lisp on windows with threads 07:10:45 well run vcvars.bat and then tpye SET.. and fill in your system env vars based off that 07:11:01 why use windows? installing anything else is easy. 07:11:24 because windows runs most everything else better than linux etc? 07:11:41 By the way, does anyone actually use CL in engineering firms, for example? 07:11:50 sure, some of the programming environments under Linux are very programmer-friendly, but even Eclipse runs way better in windows than X 07:11:52 Phoodus: I think ccl has an alpha for windows 07:11:54 Phoodus: I think people who want Lisp, and who are willing to pay for Windows, should be willing to pay for their Lisp system as well. 07:11:59 karlw: that's what I'm doing 07:12:13 beach: we had a full Allegro license for a while 07:12:23 karlw: yep, the lispworks page links to a rather impressive aircraft simulator thing, for instnce 07:12:24 but they don't have any sensible pricing model for our product model 07:13:10 Phoodus: in general, if you discount C/C++, .NET and Java, programming on windows can be a bit of a pain 07:13:16 Phoodus: Where do you work? 07:13:30 it's generally treated as a second-class platform 07:13:42 we're releasing a new product as a startup, branched from a contracting company 07:13:47 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:13:50 rsynnott: even in C or C++, it's a bit of a pain. Visual C++ (studio, whatever it's called this year) is weird. 07:14:09 hefner: certainly it is coming from a unixy background 07:14:23 but I believe people who're used to it can handle it well enough 07:14:27 Visual Studio is actually pretty nice IDE. 07:14:39 it's the compiler itself that deviates from established norms 07:15:19 (I used to do some work on a client-side library for a games networking thing written in C++; the windows bit was managable, but that was because someone else had written the build scripts. Otherwise I might have gone mad :) ) 07:15:32 Phoodus you got my path update suggestion? Open up a cmd.exe .. run c:\Program Files\Microsoft Visual Studio 8\Common7\Tools\vsvars32.bat .. then tpye SET.. open up System->Properies->Evrinmnet vars and paste in what you see in the cmd.exe window 07:15:44 the server-side, on the other hand, was python and erlang, and totally unusable on windows 07:15:44 yeah, any time you use ANY IDE, you lose easy integration 07:15:57 dmiles: yes I did 07:16:07 not certain I want all that stuff, especially the path, always available 07:16:17 especially since I do cygwin and other stuff on this box 07:16:41 this is, however, just a simple path problem 07:16:48 (so far) 07:16:49 Phoodus, its lame i know.. i even remember doing that a couple years ago might even beeen related to my builds of ECL :< 07:16:51 Phoodus: you could probably have a batch file which gets the settings and then starts emacs in that environment 07:17:06 emacs doesn't need to be in that environment 07:17:16 I'd have to have a ECL startup batch script that SLIME calls when it starts 07:17:28 ecl is started by emacs, though, and should (I think ) inherit the environment 07:17:48 so you start swank independantly in ECL before emacs? 07:17:59 xemacs starts slime, which starts ECL 07:18:24 so slime can call a .bat instead of ecl.exe 07:18:38 Phoodus: I know people in BioE who agonize over CL's perceived slowness. 07:18:40 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:18:41 sounds liek xemacs needs to be hosted in an environment that can find ECL 07:18:47 it could, assuming the bat doesn't mess with stdin/stdout and so on 07:18:55 karlw: as comppared to what, exactly? 07:19:13 dmiles: it has nothing to do with xemacs' environment 07:19:19 it finds ECL just fine 07:19:26 because it's an absolutepath 07:19:39 Phoodus, so the pathname is too long? 07:19:59 Phoodus: but if xemacs has the visual C stuff in its environment, it should pass that environment onto ecl when starting it, right? 07:20:01 no, ECL doesn't start with the compiler stuff from vcvars.bat all set up 07:20:08 rsynnott: C++ and MATLAB. 07:20:14 Phoodus: didn't you already figure out how to fix this? write a script, make slime launch it? 07:20:14 right, but I don't want to have to make every user change their xemacs 07:20:28 karlw: ah, well, yep, it would generally be slower than C++ 07:20:41 (they use vim also...) 07:20:41 hefner: I know 07:20:47 but not by a huge margin, and hardware is relatively cheap these days 07:21:30 slower than matlab? I can call LAPACK just as well from CL ;) 07:22:38 SBCL is about 3 times slower than g++, I'm told. 07:22:52 karlw: who told you that? 07:22:57 karlw: interestingly meaningless figure. 07:23:01 that would depend very much on how the software was written 07:23:05 and what it was doing :) 07:23:35 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:23:46 My prof: http://eecs.berkeley.edu/~bh 07:24:13 -!- holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:24:31 I should call Fateman about it :-) 07:24:34 karlw: that was very unscientific of him to say such a thing. 07:24:45 is CLisp considered realitively fast? 07:24:50 dmiles: no 07:24:50 dmiles: no 07:24:52 heh 07:24:56 hehe 07:25:09 it compiles to bytecode for a vm 07:25:16 (though I think it does some JIT now) 07:25:20 karlw: It's my belief that Fateman's code is sent through a time warp between the 1970s and today. 07:25:23 Well, he saidf "on average" 07:25:29 most others target native machines 07:25:47 karlw: now useless in addition to meaningless. 07:25:51 karlw: Assuming every program is equally likely, I suppose? 07:25:54 CL encourages you to write very inefficient code, though 07:26:07 dmiles: it's apparently considered pretty good when you're working more dynamically. 07:26:11 but you can always go back and make the slow bits faster 07:26:42 and profiling tools should make it easy to find where the problems lie 07:26:53 maybe. or you can throw it out and start over. 07:26:54 rsynnott: sometimes the architecture astronauts took over and you have to rewrite everywhere. 07:27:02 I haven't checked the latest benchmarks for SBCL vs. g++ 07:27:15 karlw: benchmarks are pretty useless. 07:27:39 karlw: I suggest you read some of the articles (and pass them on to your professor) by Didier Verna. 07:27:48 pkhuong: I'll admit to overusing CLOS myself :) 07:28:04 so SBCL seems to be a good cl-benchmark refernce impl? 07:28:19 (though I'm doing web stuff where the execution speed of the application is never the issue anyway) 07:28:25 GrayMagiker [n=Twilight@75-173-1-137.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:28:43 just of interest here is ABCL vs CLISP https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/attachment.php?list_name=armedbear-j-devel&message_id=CFAC93BD509C41908F6399FD3E51B0F4%40lotus&counter=1 07:29:19 rsynnott: people say that, but then it seems like I'm always reading about sites using tons of servers and elaborate caching schemes 07:29:49 I think he was saying it in the context of "I'm just going to be crude since they're only constant-time operations, so we don't care!" 07:29:52 hefner: database is the problem for us 07:29:55 (hmm, I guess I could parse that as you specifically not caring about speed, rather than it not being relevant to the whole class of web applications) 07:30:10 (and a slightly elaborate caching system is used :) ) 07:30:51 but in those setups with tons of servers, there are usually more databases than app servers 07:31:03 unless the app is spectacularly inefficient or doing something weird 07:31:06 alright, the .cmd file does fix the path issue 07:31:19 but still not the unbound mutually recursive function problme 07:31:29 hefner: well, the speed of the web application has never been a problem for me 07:31:56 (a few ms per page, once you take out the db stuff) 07:32:17 I'm a math major anyway, so efficiency doesn't matter. 07:32:29 heh 07:32:38 Phoodus: are you sure that's the problem? Mutually recursive definition shouldn't be an issue. 07:32:42 We do a lot of back-end batch stuff, so efficiency doesn't matter here anyway 07:32:42 oh, if only I had more (painfully acquired) experience to support (or refute) my intuition that database servers are just insane if you care about performance at all. But I don't have a good feeling for it. 07:32:45 there are obviously some webapps where it's more of a problem, but I suspect most common webapps put more load on other bits than on the actual application 07:32:51 hefner: oh, they are 07:32:55 (and not that I know what the alternative is) 07:33:01 they're effectively totally unpredictable 07:33:05 other than the obvious.. uh, not using one. :) 07:33:10 but there's often no acceptable alternative 07:33:14 pkhuong: I'll try to make a small test case. It's an unbound variable name on a mutually recursive function, which did work on CLISP and Allegro 07:33:38 Phoodus: an unbound *variable* has nothing to do with mutual recursion of *functions*. 07:33:50 (people do use in-memory things with logging, but once you have to replicate and cluster one of those you often just end up recreating a database anyway) 07:34:09 rsynnott: except with added OO madness. 07:34:29 pkhuong: compile/load twice in the same lisp machine, and the 2nd load gives no errors. I'd say it's to do with circularity 07:34:30 but yep, they're horribly unpredictable 07:34:49 Waiting for LLVM to build gives new meaning to "same order of growth" 07:34:57 Phoodus: are you sure you don't have a defvar/defparameter too late in the file? 07:35:07 I use elephant with postgres; if I want to take a large object and read each slot in it, well, it might take under a milisecond, or it might take hundreds 07:35:26 all depends on whether it's in a memory buffer and how high IO load is 07:35:36 pkhuong: Yes, I am sure. This reports the name of a _function_ not a variable, as unbound 07:35:49 (well, hundreds may be pushing it a bit, but certainly tens) 07:35:49 and loading it twice makes it not give that error 07:35:52 why did you say it's an unbound variable name then? 07:36:10 I don't know. I suspect it's just how ECL reports errors 07:36:31 sure you don't have a variable iwth the same name? 07:36:34 The variable PROVE-SIMPLE is unbound. 07:36:38 yes, I am sure. 07:36:46 I searched the sole file I'm loading multiple times 07:36:48 it's only used as a function 07:36:57 I expanded the macros, and it's only used as a symbol or a function call 07:37:07 and this works on CLISP and AllegroCL 7 and 8 07:37:21 and you're not doing something like (apply 'prove-simple whatever)? 07:37:25 no 07:38:08 Phoodus: either way, undefined functions should at most be a style warning. 07:38:24 sorry, (apply prove-simple 07:38:28 odd 07:39:07 a simple (defun a () (b)) (defun b () (a)) compiles just fine 07:39:19 so it's probably something more subtle 07:39:24 but this is tested, working, production code 07:39:49 very "interesting" in the Chinese sense 07:40:25 as a matter of interest, have you tried compiling it with sbcl? 07:40:32 no 07:40:39 sbcl is quite warning-happy 07:40:48 SBCL "probably" runs just as "quickly" as MATLAB. 07:41:22 karlw: Matlab itself is almost as doomed to slowness as python. 07:41:55 pkhuong: doesn't it use non-matlab bits for a lot of the actual work, though? 07:42:22 rsynnott: yeah, but so can anything else (except the proprietary bits). 07:42:52 Well, why don't people use SBCL instead of paying for 10k site licenses? 07:43:33 karlw: matlab works, has tons of domain-specific packages, and the notation is mathematician-friendly. 07:44:49 *karlw* is brainwashed into thinking other people will like sexps. 07:45:30 karlw: even if they did, they would not like having tom re-implement all manner of library support that matlab comes with 07:46:28 and it's not like matlab's cost is a big deal to the institutions and companies which use it 07:46:34 karlw: it's not about sexps as much as slicing and other niceties that make it simpler to port code from Golub. I'm happy with LAPACK and ATLAS, though; even better than block algorithms. 07:47:16 (the same universities probably also pay Xilinx's INSANE licenses rather than use the GNU VHDL/Verilog toolchain, fir instance :) 07:47:50 rsynnott: probably because they don't compare. 07:48:06 yep, exactly 07:48:07 CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:12 -!- CaptainMorgan [n=CaptainM@c-24-61-150-59.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:48:58 Berkeley is sort of "open source heaven" to some extent. 07:49:07 and again the biggest problem is lack of libraries and nice tools; the gnu stuff should be good enough for undergrad stuff anyway in terms of speed and so on 07:49:25 -!- alpheus` [n=user@vpn.cashnetusa.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:50:07 I'm probably utterly devoid of business logic. 07:50:10 alpheus` [n=user@38.98.177.134] has joined #lisp 07:51:01 Kaz annotated #72068 with "Fix lies in the documentation about #@() ." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72068#5 07:51:13 Though, it *is* crazy to use Microsoft Visual C++. 07:51:27 karlw: many companies are pretty keen on open source stuff these days too 07:51:46 karlw: makes a certain amount of sense if you're developing on windows for windows 07:53:04 I know people working for the government who have to make physics simulations work with MS C++. 07:53:44 -!- alpheus` [n=user@38.98.177.134] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:53:53 alpheus` [n=user@vpn.cashnetusa.com] has joined #lisp 07:54:01 Xilinx gives pretty decent deals for students doing student-y stuff. 07:54:27 they do, but it's still not cheap; it's very good, though 07:54:29 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-137.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:55:24 mogunus pasted "this is terrible, but it works" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72129 08:00:42 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:00:59 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 08:03:24 -!- r0otSlinky [n=ro0tSlin@97.100.245.29] has quit ["leaving"] 08:05:09 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has joined #lisp 08:07:16 I think I found my problem as being a defmacro inside a let closure 08:09:13 that sounds like it should be okay, as long as the stuff in the let is used at macro-expansion time 08:09:16 I think 08:11:22 eval-when issues. 08:11:32 saikat_ [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 08:11:46 -!- karlw [n=user@dsl081-068-221.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has left #lisp 08:11:49 when I pulled the macro out to its own file to be loaded separately first, it worked with no errors or warnings 08:12:51 saikat__ [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 08:14:11 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:16:38 -!- sohum [n=sohum@114.72.184.99] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:19:05 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:20:18 mogunus pasted "Whee!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72131 08:23:58 -!- Balooga_ [n=luke@65.111.175.229] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:25:28 I'm looking for how to handle key-repeat events in lispbuilder-sdl 08:26:31 The function that the docs reference does not exist 08:26:36 nor is it documented 08:27:16 well, it would hardly be documented if it doesn't exist :) 08:28:21 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:29:13 I mean, the docs reference it 08:29:15 and even link to it 08:29:18 but it isn't in the docs 08:29:26 a function enable-key-repeat 08:29:41 oh. nevermind, I need to update my version of lispbuilder-sdf. 08:29:50 ah 08:30:14 mogunus: trying to make a game? :) 08:30:20 rsynnott: sort of. 08:30:32 rsynnott: a physical simulation environment for evolutionary computing 08:30:35 so, yes. a game. 08:31:12 AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has joined #lisp 08:33:34 Where can I get the latest version? 08:33:47 The link provided http://www.balooga.com.com/lispbuilder/lispbuilder-sdl.tgz isn't working 08:34:06 skrit_ [n=skrit@cpe-76-88-49-7.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:24 mogunus: have you tried the google code page? 08:35:03 pkhuong: oh, fantastic. no, I've just been looking at the sourceforge one 08:39:01 mogunus: the google code version is the latest one. 08:39:33 sykopomp: I just figured that out :-) 08:39:35 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-101-69.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:39:36 -!- skrit [n=skrit@cpe-76-88-49-7.san.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:40:37 as we speak I fetch it from svn 08:40:43 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-138-209.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:41:17 sysfault_ [i=exalted@c-68-45-34-224.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:41:25 lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has joined #lisp 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[n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:51:36 nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:37 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@212251243246.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:51:38 kidd1 [n=kidd@70.Red-83-36-89.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:38 kidd [n=kidd@70.Red-83-36-89.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:38 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 08:51:38 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 08:51:43 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 08:51:43 -!- maxote [n=maxote@84.79.67.254] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 08:51:55 mogunus: it is preferable to use WHEN to an IF without an `else' branch. 08:51:55 mogunus: there is a useless blank line before the body of the LET. 08:52:33 maxote [n=mevoypro@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 08:52:51 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 08:56:45 beach: oh. which piece of code? my silly SDL thing, or horrible bfs? (thanks) 08:56:58 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 08:58:34 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:58:57 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:59:14 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:59:36 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:00:01 Ah. there's no (loop) in the SDL code. 09:00:20 -!- sysfault_ [i=exalted@c-68-45-34-224.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 09:00:27 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:00:30 -!- mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:00:44 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.250.77] has quit [Success] 09:03:00 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has joined #lisp 09:04:34 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:04:36 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:05:08 mogunus: sdl 09:05:32 oudeis [n=oudeis@85.65.216.79.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:31 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.253.53] has joined #lisp 09:11:20 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 09:11:54 AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has joined #lisp 09:17:06 -!- cky [n=cky@202-74-223-70.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:18:00 cky [n=cky@202-74-223-70.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:19:11 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@87.68.109.68] has joined #lisp 09:19:12 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:08 hey, y'all. 09:28:12 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:28:13 SUP 09:28:27 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Client Quit] 09:28:39 I've had a wonderful weekend, so it's catch-up time. You? 09:32:15 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 09:32:16 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 09:32:40 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-24-51.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 09:32:42 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.253.53] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:32:49 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 09:34:24 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:35:32 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Client Quit] 09:38:07 -!- lukego_ [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has quit [] 09:38:57 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 09:39:45 oh man, ECL treats ~ in the file name to be the root of the current directory! 09:40:09 so there's no place to put your .ecl if you ever work from multiple drives 09:43:24 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@85.65.216.79.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:45:25 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 09:47:48 Phoodus, what do you mean by that? ~ is a UNIX thing. 09:48:07 ~ typically maps to C:\docs&settings\usernames\ in windows ports 09:48:18 as per the environment variables 09:48:42 ECL looks for ~/.ecl and ~/.eclrc for its init files 09:48:56 alright, I thought it'd have to be expanded properly through some other mechanism. So ECL has platform-specific code in its pathname code? 09:49:06 but if you happen to start from D: (like if you're on xemacs and already have a buffer open to a file on that drive), it'll start ECL from D: and wont' see your C:\.ecl 09:49:30 Right. It should look at %SYSDRIVE%, or perhaps better yet whatever the documents folder is called. 09:49:32 tic: I found it, it looks for envvar "HOME", and defaults to "/" if it can't find it 09:49:38 %USERPROFILE% 09:49:54 tic: with no platform-specifics 09:51:38 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:52:04 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:54:51 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-24-51.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:56:58 Phoodus, nasty! 09:57:01 Phoodus, you fix? :) 09:59:00 _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:59:29 replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-138-209.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:59:40 I posted a bug, I don't know what the format of the .d files technically is 09:59:44 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:59:49 -!- _ace4016_ is now known as ace4016 10:00:03 http://sourceforge.net/tracker/index.php?func=detail&atid=398053&aid=2426551&group_id=30035 10:00:27 g'day 10:02:23 hello schme 10:04:01 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:27 Hi there beach 10:05:38 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 10:05:44 *schme* issa in the for coffee waiting state. 10:10:52 yeah, but you're threaded, so who cares? :) 10:12:05 xlq [n=xlq@88-106-90-228.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 10:12:33 hi schme, beach. 10:13:22 hello tic 10:13:28 Phoodus: hehehehe :) 10:14:07 Phoodus: Somehow I'm very unthreaded before the coffee ;) 10:15:22 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@87.68.109.68] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:16:36 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit ["status window"] 10:16:43 scode2 [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 10:16:46 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-138-209.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:16:48 Balooga_ [n=luke@65.111.175.229] has joined #lisp 10:17:21 -!- scode2 is now known as scode 10:20:21 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:22:56 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:25:13 Heh, someone'll probably have a heart attack if they read the lisp I'm writing :'( 10:25:27 :( I'm sorry 10:25:29 *pat pat* 10:25:47 Lexical scoping seems to be biting me in the ass >:( 10:26:10 buh? I never use anything -but- lexical scoping 10:26:29 Under what circumstances would new copies of the same object be spawned?... 10:26:41 xlq: just place it alongside some perl 10:26:44 I figured putting a few things inside a closure would fix my scoping woes ;_; 10:26:47 if your closure is at the top level, then once 10:26:56 if your closure is inside something you call & return, then every time you call it 10:27:11 that's what I thought. The closure is, indeed, toplevel 10:27:23 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:27:26 right. That (let ...) is only executed once 10:28:00 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 10:28:29 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:29:08 -!- drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:29:20 sykopomp pasted "lexical failure" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72134 10:29:31 lol 10:30:31 aka-aka [i=dba322f1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a296507308238a97] has joined #lisp 10:31:02 I honestly don't have the slightest idea about what happened. 10:31:04 I'm really over-using dotimes :( 10:31:09 I would not use functions like that, hard to debug 10:31:27 lispm: no kidding, but I need some kind of global store for all the objects. 10:31:38 I'd still recommend this form 10:31:40 use a global variable 10:31:41 unless you mean something else. 10:31:51 it's the only way in lisp to actually encapsulate and hide data 10:32:14 it is hidden that you'll have problems debugging this later 10:32:22 jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 10:32:40 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb421d.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 10:32:40 no, there's only 1 place that things can ever hit those variables 10:32:40 lispm: I'm not entirely sure how that would help, though. :-\ 10:32:55 get rid of the lexical environment 10:32:56 you don't have a stray "(setf *global* nil) ; TESTING" hanging off somewhere 10:33:01 plus, if I use a dynamic variable, I'll probably start getting copies of the objects in random places, right? 10:33:27 Phoodus: I find encapsulation to be a pretty big sham, usually. 10:33:39 it's an excellent debugging tool 10:33:45 ALL access goes through one point 10:33:54 nobody changes your data under your nose 10:33:57 Phoodus: isn't helping might right now, is it? ;) 10:33:59 and thus you miss fixing things up 10:34:17 I don't really understand what is code is doing & what the actual problem is just glancing at it 10:34:22 even if it were globls 10:34:42 sykopomp: it's simple to add a function that returns the closure state so you can inspect it 10:34:52 lispm: I plan on having more than one reference to the objects in that table. I thought declaring the hash table special would prevent them from being identical :) 10:35:04 *xlq* still isn't sure about the whole lisp ting 10:35:06 thing 10:35:12 locklace: I do have one. (list-all-prototypes) does that for me. 10:35:34 locklace: and through there, I have access to all the objects in the table. The problem is happening entirely within that closure. 10:35:49 sykopomp: you're not threaded are you? 10:35:49 So I have no idea what the weird clones are all about. 10:35:53 Phoodus: nope. 10:37:08 describe your simplest flow that hits the problem 10:37:14 What's the difference between setf and let? 10:37:26 let is scoped 10:37:29 setf is not 10:37:30 sykopomp: i don't understand the problem you're having with clone 10:37:33 One sec. i found a bug, but I don't think that was causing it. 10:37:52 xlq: let introduces new bindings, setf mutates a binding or a data structure 10:38:04 locklace: oh right 10:38:19 but let can also override existing bindings 10:38:30 even dynamic ones 10:38:31 xlq: they are fundamentally different, you would use let all the time in functional code but never setf for instance 10:40:02 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-135-219.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:40:03 xlq: you can view let as just some syntax sugar for lambda 10:40:35 xlq: writing (let ((a 1) (b 2)) ...) is the same as ((lambda (a b) ...) 1 2) 10:41:21 ohh! 10:41:36 thanks locklace 10:42:58 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 10:43:11 *xlq* is diving into lisp by writing a chess game :\ 10:43:32 what? no factorial or fibonacci sequences?!? ;) 10:44:00 Phoodus: that's haskell 10:44:11 +also :) 10:44:13 It'd be nice to turn a chess move into a function that can be applied to the chess board array. 10:44:54 xlq: just keep these pages handy: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node1.html http://gigamonkeys.com/book/ http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/ 10:45:09 the third one I have already downloaded ;) 10:45:25 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:25 nevermind. The lexical environment's fine. 10:45:34 Can one partially bind functions to arguments 10:45:40 I'm just enjoying the bugs of using 12-year-old code that I don't understand :) 10:45:49 heh 10:45:56 what was the problem? (if it's easy to describe?) 10:46:07 <_8david`> sykopomp: if you evaluated the code in the paste multiple times, each new definition of the clone function would have had its own standard-prototype. Obversable by saving previous results from calling clone and comparing to the current ones. 10:46:21 xlq: sounds good, you could even go further and implement the game as a stream of board-states 10:46:34 _8david`: each new definition of clone also redefines the entire closure. That's not a problem. 10:46:55 Phoodus: it's complicated, since I'm using a sorting function I don't quite understand. 10:46:55 <_8david`> sykopomp: okay, you're aware of that. Good. 10:47:10 xlq: yes, given (defun f (a b c) ...), (defun g (a c) (lambda (b) (f a b c))) 10:47:16 I yanked a bit of code out of the sample implementation of Closette to speed things up. 10:47:41 ok 10:47:41 and uhh... yeah. It's not working out for me. I'm not sure if I'm using the code wrong, or if my implementation of parent objects is wrong. 10:47:47 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:48:21 0: (TOPOLOGICAL-SORT (# # # # #) ((#1=# #2=#) (#3=# #2#) (#4=# #3#) (#3# #1#) (# #1#) (#1# #4#)) #) <-- this is hilarious. 10:48:23 well, I'm going to hit the hay, and decide later on ECL on windows vs SBCL on VMWare/Linux 10:49:02 for the dev environment 10:49:21 Phoodus: just install linux and get it over with 10:49:41 just like the last 19 times I installed linux? :-P 10:49:45 Now I feel silly. I can't call a lambda :( 10:50:03 xlq: funcall 10:50:28 \o/ 10:50:34 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:50:35 Partial function binding :D 10:50:43 *xlq* hugs lisp 10:51:28 Phoodus: 19 times? What did you try to install, gentoo?? 10:52:29 Ragnaroek [i=54a66031@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0198426df90e9da7] has joined #lisp 10:53:06 -!- cky [n=cky@202-74-223-70.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:53:12 <_8david`> sykopomp: another observation: the first call to CLONE will return an object of id 1, because you start with 0 and incf that, colliding with the standard-prototype. Is that intentional? 10:53:19 nah, just over the years, Linux has always missed some core feature of the desktop, environment, or tool I need to run 10:53:30 cky_ [n=cky@202-74-223-70.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:53:38 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-158-30.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 10:53:41 and besides, Linux is a toolkit with which you can build a nice system 10:53:50 _8david`: yeah. I noticed that and fixed it :) 10:53:51 <_8david`> Phoodus: confusing advice on closures was bad enough, not a Linux discussion on top of that, please! 10:54:29 but you do need to build it yourself 10:54:31 _8david`: my problem actually seems to have to do with either my defining inheritance wrong, or the sorting algorithm being used wrong (or incapable of sorting the hierarchy) 10:54:51 _8david`: I'm not really a stranger to closures, but I thought I may have misunderstood something when stuff started blowing up. 10:55:14 Phoodus: Misconceptions. 10:55:23 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:55:43 _8david`: I know it's an inflammatory comment, but please don't continue representing the Lisp community like that. It's too common :-P 10:56:22 sykopomp: I used linux on the desktop for probably 5 of the last 10 years in total 10:56:44 in some fields, windows support is much stronger. In others, linux support is much stronger 10:57:09 Phoodus: I understand the tools thing. I meant really the build-it-yourself thing. Anyways, that's offtopi.c 10:57:09 you simply have to use the proper tools at the proper time, and not try to shoehorn everything into 1 zealotous "one true way" 10:59:39 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1497.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:00:29 benny [n=benny@i577A1497.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:02:29 anyway, linux and windows both suck. Use mac! :) 11:02:48 mac sucks too, just less. 11:02:54 remember, every OS sucks. 11:03:01 Oh yeah :) I made a list of chess move functions, and then applied them all to the board and dumped the board. It all worked! \o/ 11:03:17 congrats 11:03:57 I don't own one myself yet. :) I do think all present OS'es suck. The linux threading model, for example, is awful. I'm hoping Alan Kay and his group can come up with something because the OS space needs some shaking up 11:04:01 hyy [n=hyy@218.73.128.223] has joined #lisp 11:04:18 And then after that we can advance to the Lisp machine. :) 11:04:24 We bought a Mac, a G5 with 10.4 or something 11:04:46 network shares? didnt' work. VNC? died constantly. Plug in a videocam? coudlnt' grok it 11:05:02 just totally basic out-of-the-box stuff 11:05:06 -!- hyy [n=hyy@218.73.128.223] has quit [Client Quit] 11:05:18 G5? That's pretty old, no? 11:05:25 so, until you've actually used one, don't hold such a "It's the best!" attitude too strongly ;) 11:05:30 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.223] has joined #lisp 11:05:41 jbjohns: at the time, it was the best on the market 11:05:50 Phoodus: It was totally a joke, as I tried to indicate with the ! and the :) 11:05:50 and held in as high esteem as today's systems 11:05:56 ah, k ;) 11:05:58 you never know :) 11:06:27 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.223] has quit [Client Quit] 11:06:35 I do think Mac is better then windows from what I've seen, and Linux is missing too many basic things for me to consider it a true desktop contender 11:07:07 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.223] has joined #lisp 11:07:15 Time Machine is a good idea. Mac seems to have better file and program encapsulation. I'll give it those 2 :) 11:07:34 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.223] has quit [Client Quit] 11:07:36 It's true that more things will work for windows then mac or linux, but for the same reason more things work in Java then Lisp: lots and lots and lots of people/money have been sent there, anything would be as functional given those kind of resources 11:07:42 anyway, I'm really off now 11:07:46 -!- Phoodus [i=foo@ip68-231-38-131.ph.ph.cox.net] has quit [] 11:07:56 more things? 11:08:04 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.223] has joined #lisp 11:08:12 Java or windows? 11:08:17 I don't buy it. take a look at the debian package repos. tonsa things that will work. or freshmeat. 11:08:21 tonsa stuff will work 11:08:23 no linux vs ms 11:08:49 Ok, go to gamespot, pick the top 5 games there and show me how to get them to run on Linux as good as they will on windows 11:09:09 that's lock-in. That doesn't reflect on the OSes. 11:10:08 It does reflect my statement though: For many things that people want to do they will have an easier time on windows. That shouldn't be seen as controversial or surprising. Look at all the money that's been dumped on them, it bloody well should all work there. It should be much better then it is 11:10:34 -!- _8david` is now known as lichtblau 11:13:12 But hopefully the years of backward compatibility with horrible design decisions will eventually take its tole. Windows has the perfect man at the helm to sink the ship 11:14:20 *glub* 11:14:25 glub? 11:14:32 sinking ship 11:15:03 :) I certainly hope so. 11:15:11 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:15:19 I need a nice name for a CL-based prototype system. 11:15:20 hm 11:15:26 ok, got to go. Have a good few days 11:15:52 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has left #lisp 11:16:57 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 11:17:18 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.182.15] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:21:32 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:22:00 leotr [i=kvirc@95.58.31.10] has joined #lisp 11:22:27 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:22:34 hi! where is it possible to download a good tutorial for lisp for offline reading? 11:22:46 leotr: you could buy PCL ;) 11:24:50 Yeah, I can recommend PCL, too 11:24:52 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 11:26:17 PCL is available as PDF 11:26:25 Hmm. How would one call read-char multiple times and return the result as a list? 11:26:28 Touretzky also 11:26:46 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:26:47 (loop repeat 10 collect (read-char)) 11:26:54 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-158-30.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:27:27 lispm: :) 11:27:48 Pointers to Books as PDFs: http://www.lispmachine.net/ 11:28:17 lispm, is that your dyndns'd site? 11:28:23 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-158-30.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 11:28:24 no 11:28:42 that's lispm.dyndns.org 11:28:52 Yeah, I just thought you recently added a mirror. 11:28:58 no 11:29:02 thanks 11:29:10 I noticed when looking at the page, heh. 11:29:57 Touretzky's book: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/index.html 11:30:43 xlq: also (list (read-char) (read-char) (read-char)) 11:31:49 ebzzry__ [n=rmm@124.217.68.7] has joined #lisp 11:34:13 xlq: of course, read-sequence might be a better idea 11:35:03 -!- ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.80.190] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:37:06 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:38:54 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-158-30.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:48:18 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:48:33 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 11:48:36 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:54:26 NoorDextor [n=Game450@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 12:04:14 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-86-125.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 12:04:51 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 12:05:03 andrea1 [n=andreas@p579F8947.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:48 -!- andreas [n=andreas@p579F8A76.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:06:12 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-af4872a478026e7a] has quit ["0"] 12:07:04 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-b1dfdf1d46980efb] has joined #lisp 12:11:30 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska310174.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:14:43 -!- leotr [i=kvirc@95.58.31.10] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:15:55 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-58.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:16:13 dwave [n=ask@212251243246.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 12:19:52 sohum [n=sohum@122.110.96.11] has joined #lisp 12:22:42 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-134-133.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:27:32 davazp [n=user@49.Red-83-49-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:17 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.128.223] has joined #lisp 12:31:24 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.223] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:33:06 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:36:08 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.128.223] has quit [Client Quit] 12:36:11 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 12:36:16 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:36:58 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:30 -!- replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-138-209.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:40:55 lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has joined #lisp 12:42:14 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.223] has joined #lisp 12:44:56 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf45b.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 12:55:31 -!- dwave [n=ask@212251243246.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:58:43 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 12:59:19 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-134-133.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:59:23 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:02:13 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb421d.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:02:20 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-134-133.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:02:30 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:21:55 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 13:28:35 replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-134-133.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:30:49 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:33:02 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 13:39:29 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit ["leaving"] 13:52:55 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-134-133.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:53:54 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:41 benny` [n=benny@i577A0A3F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:57 besiria [n=user@ppp083212087234.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 13:58:02 Is there anywhere at all which has a *simple* example of CLOS? 13:58:48 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html 13:58:55 http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ 13:58:57 -!- randomwalker [n=me@cpe-70-116-29-132.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 13:59:12 you may need some of the previous chapters for comprehension 13:59:20 possibly 13:59:20 randomwalker [n=me@cpe-70-116-29-132.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:59:33 xlq: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/clos-tutorial/ 14:05:51 Right I'm back. 14:07:04 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:48 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1497.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:11:40 -!- xlq [n=xlq@88-106-90-228.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit ["have a nice day"] 14:12:35 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 14:13:10 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:24:38 dwave [n=ask@212251243246.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:26:00 ice_four [n=ice_four@host217-43-8-66.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:11 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:28:24 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-134-133.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:29:32 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 14:35:33 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:36:19 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:36:36 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:05 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:39:03 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:39:37 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:46 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:44:49 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:07 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:45:24 -!- replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-134-133.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:46:52 -!- jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:46:53 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-39-214.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 14:50:31 -!- Grilinctus is now known as Aankhen`` 14:53:31 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:03:48 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-134-133.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:05:08 cooldude127 [n=user@adsl-074-244-095-169.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:22 -!- Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has left #lisp 15:11:49 Good afternoon. 15:13:32 -!- sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:20:17 hi, beach. 15:21:53 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-90-157.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:22:22 hi can someone tell me if there is a way to stop all created threads in eamcs/slime 15:24:40 M-x slime-list-threads, then type k vigorously? 15:25:07 look out for nasal daemons due to threads that didn't want to die so abruptly though 15:26:29 thx 15:27:24 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.171.225] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:27:32 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.168.148] has joined #lisp 15:28:09 run a full gc afterwards 15:28:21 and expect messed up global state 15:31:29 xlq [n=xlq@88-106-90-228.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 15:32:59 -!- PanGoat is now known as KingOfTheBongo 15:34:03 _3b: Fixed the stream arguments. Thanks! 15:34:57 _3b: as far as the spelling errors are concerned, are you sure it is not just a regional difference? 15:35:01 waterbear [i=a@c-67-185-8-42.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:17 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:39:37 <_3b> beach: NINTH at least is a CL symbol, so specified explictly, less sure about the others 15:39:52 good point 15:41:44 -!- waterbear [i=a@c-67-185-8-42.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:44:01 -!- cooldude127 [n=user@adsl-074-244-095-169.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:43 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:48:48 mulander [n=user@nat-4.interq.pl] has joined #lisp 15:51:32 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:36 xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:51:47 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:52:20 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:56:40 bob_ [n=bob@74-140-161-236.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 15:57:12 -!- bob_ [n=bob@74-140-161-236.dhcp.insightbb.com] has left #lisp 15:57:50 josemanuel [n=josemanu@49.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:58:09 _3b: OK, seems you are right. All of them fixed now. Thanks again! 15:59:16 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:37 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:06 -!- mulander [n=user@nat-4.interq.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:39 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E477A2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:33 macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:07:42 -!- xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.12/0000000000]"] 16:13:27 vasa [n=vasa@mm-96-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 16:14:15 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:16:02 Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-303109.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 16:20:25 -!- ths___ is now known as the 16:20:43 -!- the is now known as ths 16:24:06 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:24:27 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-15-61.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:24:42 is it possible to check for one-of-several signals with stefil's (signals ..? 16:26:37 are you looking for (signals my-error ...) ? 16:27:09 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:27:38 (or sig1 sig2 ...) but i don't know stefil 16:27:52 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:28:32 ya'll in NYC are going to the lisp-nyc holiday social on tuesday night i hope 16:28:39 attila_lendvai: yeah, but it should check on a list of possible signals 16:28:42 lispnyc.org ! 16:28:44 -!- galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:29:04 turbo24prg: then try what weirdo suggested, should work 16:29:22 mbac: w00t 16:29:24 i'll try that, thanks 16:29:29 mbac: where's that at? 16:29:33 is it free? 16:29:46 is it by membership? 16:33:55 hi how can i compare to byte vectors for equality? 16:34:02 (signals (or sig1 sig2 ... )
...? 16:34:12 gives an macroexpandion error 16:34:47 and (or (signals sig1 ... ) (signals sig2 ...) has imho different semantics 16:35:10 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:35:48 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:37:49 Aji-Dahaka [n=root@fluffy.dname.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:15 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 16:39:39 krumholt: equalp 16:39:42 clhs equalp 16:39:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equalp.htm 16:39:57 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:40:02 why equalp? isn't equal enough? 16:40:12 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #lisp 16:40:20 thx equalp works 16:40:21 weirdo: You may be right. Hold on... 16:40:28 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 16:40:29 only for strings and bit-vectors 16:40:51 I'm a Lisp beginner. I'm trying to figure out what the difference is between the string created by '(5 + 6) and the string "5 + 6" assigned to the environment variable QUERY_STRING when created by (getenv "QUERY_STRING") 16:40:57 weirdo: what jsnell said. 16:41:27 elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has joined #lisp 16:41:27 Aji-Dahaka: '(5 + 6) does not create a string 16:42:13 Aji-Dahaka: When that expression is evaluated, a list of three elements, the number 5, the symbol +, and the number 6, is created. 16:42:22 QUERY_STRING? like, HTTP? 16:42:30 weirdo: yes 16:42:40 a plus in QUERY_STRING represents a space, though 16:43:28 right, I'm currently setting QUERY_STRING manually at the command line before running the script 16:43:56 beach: ooh, that kinda explains it. So now I need to figure out how to list-ify a string 16:44:09 *Aji-Dahaka* heads back to the practical common book 16:44:10 QUERY_STRING typically represents a list of key-value pairs 16:44:31 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 16:44:44 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.223] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:45:01 weirdo: yup, I figured I'd do the query string parsing after I figure out how to get a string-to-list thing 16:45:17 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.128.223] has joined #lisp 16:45:21 then treat the query-string issue as a string-to-string translation through regex or similar 16:46:21 you need to parse a query-string? got some code to do that 16:46:29 seems like string-to-list would require some sort of split()-like function (I'm often a PERL programmer) 16:46:36 weirdo: oh? may I? 16:47:13 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:47:36 Aji-Dahaka, hold on, i'll paste it 16:47:42 thanks 16:49:22 Aji-Dahaka: http://cliki.net/split-sequence 16:49:26 uh something broke in 1.0.23.40? 16:49:41 ; compiling file "site/asdf-system-connections/dev/asdf-system-connections.lisp" (written 20 JAN 2007 11:43:08 PM): 16:50:20 no cpu usage, unresponsive to C-c 16:50:26 unresponsive to TERM 16:50:39 was fine several revisions ago 16:50:47 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-96-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 16:53:19 jsnell, can you load anything using asdf-system-connections on .40? 16:56:16 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 16:56:22 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483FE3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:57:21 weirdo pasted "query-string-parsing for aji-dahaka" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72140 16:57:22 xirie [n=user@ti0073a340-dhcp0304.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:57:32 -!- Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:33 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:57:37 note that it may reference undefined function since my image is broke atm... 16:57:53 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:59:04 -!- anfitrion [n=nonamme@h-68-167-69-244.nycmny83.dynamic.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:44 weirdo: sorry, I don't use asdf-system-connections, and I haven't built a new sbcl in a couple of months 17:00:08 vasa [n=vasa@mm-96-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 17:00:16 in case you haven't seen this 100 times already 17:00:21 http://jonex.info/dump/yolisp.jpg 17:01:24 hmm...no babel 17:01:43 it's asdf-installable 17:02:16 hmm...not so convinced that I have asdf available 17:02:51 *Aji-Dahaka* reads the asdf page to see how one would tel if they have an asdf available 17:03:13 asdf and asdf-install are shipped with sbcl, if that's your impl 17:03:23 might try (require 'asdf) and 'asdf-install anyway 17:04:04 require asdf doesn't work :( 17:04:51 what does (lisp-implementation-type) say? 17:05:09 "CLISP" 17:05:48 a modern RHEL box, it seems 17:08:33 -!- Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:42 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:09:58 ooh, this read-from-string seems useful 17:12:02 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 17:12:09 ajourez [n=ajourez@91.176.28.51] has joined #lisp 17:12:17 -!- ajourez [n=ajourez@91.176.28.51] has quit [Client Quit] 17:12:28 read-from-string is insecure for unverified data 17:12:43 (read-from-string "#.(quit)") 17:12:59 (read-from-string "'(absurdly long list of symbols)") 17:13:12 ShereKahn [n=ajourez@91.176.28.51] has joined #lisp 17:13:50 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:13:55 insecure like arbitrary execution or just killing the lisp program? 17:14:25 both :) 17:14:26 that's why you bind *read-eval* to nil before calling it 17:15:10 locklace: you can still run out of heap. 17:16:24 pkhuong: even with a short string? 17:16:25 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:35 -!- xirie [n=user@ti0073a340-dhcp0304.bb.online.no] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:16:35 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:43 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 17:17:35 locklace: i can easily make you run out of stack space, for sure. 17:18:25 -!- xlq [n=xlq@88-106-90-228.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has left #lisp 17:18:50 if you're doing this over a socket, I only have to send a couple characters at a time. 17:19:12 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:19:22 you mean just with "(((..."? 17:21:23 interning arbitrary symbols still reads to heap exhaustion 17:21:24 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:21:30 s/reads/leads 17:21:52 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22:03 pkhuong, hey, can you require 'asdf-system-connections on 1.0.23.40 386? 17:22:21 yes, but if you're dealing with a fixed string of say 256 characters that's unlikely to be an issue 17:22:49 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178041205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:22:54 what if it's read repeatedly? 17:23:08 just keep generating random symbols every time and it eventually runs out of heap 17:23:31 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e178041205.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:24:16 sure, but that's a different case 17:25:10 IMO it's a mistake that reading symbols and numbers is hardcoded in the reader 17:25:19 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:26:39 well, you could, if it was for some reason desirable, write your own reader 17:27:07 weirdo: I don't use that. 17:27:13 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 17:28:28 of course read-from-string is safe if you trust whoever's providing the strings 17:28:55 just don't let users or the internent provide your strings :) 17:29:33 pkhuong, something broke between .26 and .40 and load-op hangs the image 17:30:49 weirdo: have you tried deleting fasls and rebuilding? 17:31:11 rsynnott, yes 17:32:06 trittweil [n=rittweil@rayhalle1.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 17:32:22 it hangs ignoring TERM or slime breaks upon compiling the first file 17:32:54 oh, lovely 17:33:18 are you a sbcl dev? 17:33:43 nope 17:35:50 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:35:53 -!- Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:36:06 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has joined #lisp 17:36:17 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:37:46 -!- ice_four [n=ice_four@host217-43-8-66.range217-43.btcentralplus.com] has quit [] 17:37:54 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 17:38:10 weirdo: I suggest sending a bug report to sbcl-devel to report the issue, rather than asking random committers none of whom probably uses asdf-system-connections whether they can load it 17:38:34 thanks, i'll do that 17:39:01 eg. if it's due to the clos locking changes nikodemus would probably know what to do, and he won't know about the discussion on #lisp 17:41:25 wow, and now a random hang on .26. i suspect debian folk breaking something 17:46:39 hehe 17:46:57 at least on this platform, 21714 is the largest value for which this doesn't blow the stack: 17:47:01 (read-from-string (make-string 21714 :initial-element #\()) 17:52:53 tsk 17:53:22 well, you're probably making the poor thing recurse like mad! 17:54:33 Beeet [n=stathis@athedsl-303109.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 17:54:49 Greetings everyone! I'd like to see whether it is possible to have a static variable, similar to C. Are lambda expressions and closures the only way to go? 17:55:02 end of file on # :) 17:55:16 65535 is fine, though 17:55:17 Beeet: if the program is compiled you can LOAD-TIME-VALUE 17:55:31 if not you can quote something mutable, and ignore that the clhs says not to do that. 17:55:40 ...gah! 17:55:44 No! 17:56:07 on the other hand, not wanting to do that is an excellent alternative :) 17:56:10 Beeet, what's the problem you're really trying to solve, of which you believe the expression of static variables to be a subproblem? 17:56:11 kpreid, I'll google because these terms are new to me. Thanks. 17:56:14 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:56:45 Beeet: what Riastradh said. 17:56:50 Riastradh, I am just learning lisp, not targeting any particular problem currently. 17:57:48 17:57:51 Beeet: You'll be handicapping yourself if you try to translate C idioms into Lisp. 17:57:59 -!- Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:58:10 morning 17:58:18 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus_ 17:58:39 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:58:40 ASau [n=user@193.138.70.52] has joined #lisp 18:01:09 hello slyrus_ 18:01:11 peter_12 [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:35 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:01:41 hey beach. I got the first semblance of an automagically laid out molecule drawn in a mcclim pane last night 18:01:56 but the bond angles are still way off 18:02:16 slyrus_: still, that sounds like good progress! 18:02:18 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:02:32 getting there... 18:03:16 thread-local static variables do not sound too bad, methinks. 18:04:36 implementing a THREAD-LOCAL-VALUE special form may even be fun :) 18:05:51 how would that work? 18:06:53 -!- Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:06:57 slyrus_: any sort of molecule in particular? 18:08:47 primarily organic compounds that aren't particularly huge (under <1000 MW). I'm not interested in complex metal geometries or macrolides or anything like that ATM 18:09:00 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:09:28 but I'd like to be able to get a decent layout for simple ring systems (napthalene, anthracene, etc...) but don't care about, e.g. fullerenes, or even adamantane for that matter. 18:10:05 MW? Mega-Watt? 18:10:18 and it figures out the bond angles and so forth itself? 18:10:49 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:12:27 mw molecular weight. the proper unit is actually amu. 18:12:34 rsynnott: that's the idea anyway 18:12:42 ah, cool 18:12:44 purely 2-d structural diagrams 18:13:04 not trying to figure out realistic 3-d shape or anything like that 18:13:08 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-158-30.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:14:07 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:14:16 well, 'realistic' as regards molecules may be a bit dubious anyway :) 18:16:31 hi. i'm trying to do a bit of number crunching with sbcl (spinning through very large arrays of double-float numbers doing simple statistical stuff, i guess fortranish problems really) 18:16:49 i wondered if anyone could recommend any reading on the topic of optimisation for this kind of thing, under sbcl 18:16:56 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:16:58 (or any other fast cl) 18:17:22 make sure your inner loop is not consing any floats 18:17:28 alternatively, call out to fortran 18:17:38 -!- Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:18:41 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 18:18:49 what sorts of operations would cons floats? 18:18:49 (declare (optimize (speed 3))), plug away at it until all the interesting optimization notes disappear. don't pass floats across function boundaries (unless, perhaps, they are inlined). 18:18:53 hefnr: the resulting object (or perhaps just a pointer to it) is allocated in thread-local memory 18:19:48 macdice: anything that returns a floating point value from a lisp function, or any insufficiently-declared arithmetic operation 18:22:56 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:24:29 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 18:24:45 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 18:25:50 -!- saikat__ [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:25:50 -!- Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:26:05 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:26:47 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 18:27:26 Heyo. 18:29:27 thanks - definitely need to learn more about float representation. is this consing because of 'boxed' as opposed to 'immediate' values? 18:29:31 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-96-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 18:30:41 floats won't fit in a general-purpose register 18:30:49 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E477A2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:35 maybe this problem can be alleviated for 64-bit platforms 18:31:58 surely a 32bit float (as opposed to double) at least would fit in a 64bit register? 18:34:53 sounds reasonable. i wonder if any lisps do this 18:35:31 sbcl does, at least on x86-64 18:36:21 attila_lendvai, what happened to cl-dwim branch of contextl? changes got reintegrated? 18:36:48 weirdo: yes. we moved away some repos to lower the confusion 18:37:10 weirdo: moved away meaning that we moved them into obsolete/ 18:37:38 now, the way to go is the stable release or nightly main branch? 18:39:43 hefnr: that's good to know - i might be able to get away with single-float maths, time to go and do some profiling 18:39:48 the problem with sbcl hanging was caused by a fasl lying in ~/.sbcl/site. sorry for the confusion, guys! 18:40:08 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E456BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:27 qbg [n=quickbas@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 18:40:42 heh 18:40:54 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a66031@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0198426df90e9da7] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 18:41:20 *rsynnott* always deletes all fasls in .sbcl and my application dirs when updateing, just to be in the safe site 18:41:24 *updating 18:41:34 -!- Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:41:45 i use asdf-binary-locations, but a fasl somehow got created and was lying there from before i started using a-b-l 18:42:24 lying in wait to annoy you when least expected, yep :) 18:42:30 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:42:52 anything which uses a path likes to do this 18:43:12 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212087234.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:43:29 (old .so/dll/dylib files postitive LIVE to unexpectedly turn up in weird places which happen to e on the dll path) 18:43:38 cl-yacc users around? 18:44:12 I've used it, but it was a couple of years ago 18:45:54 -!- benny` is now known as benny 18:46:21 *weirdo* used fucc a bit to play around 18:46:51 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:51:35 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 18:53:16 -!- Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:53:41 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:57:02 funebre [n=mfunebre@c-67-170-13-67.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:05 Suppose we are writing a (common) lisp parser/interpreter in some other language than lisp. 18:57:12 -!- funebre [n=mfunebre@c-67-170-13-67.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 18:57:21 it's generally a good idea not to do that 18:57:33 because for example the reader is customizable by the readtable 18:57:47 so you need to invoke lisp functions anyway, you might as well write it all in lisp 18:57:50 kpreid: I'm asking these things just for understanding right now. And I think you're answering question(s) that might follow. :o 18:58:15 funebre [n=mfunebre@c-67-170-13-67.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:16 My next question is: what exactly would hard coded into the parser? 18:58:56 it's called the reader, and the clhs can tell yout that 18:59:04 roughly, symbols and numbers 18:59:14 (because they have to be distinguished from each other) 18:59:19 I'll look in the clhs I suppose. 18:59:20 Right. 18:59:22 also package prefixes 18:59:34 the rest is all readtable 18:59:54 -!- Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:59:57 ( " # ' 19:00:08 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:00:24 A somewhat personal request: could we maybe just discuss it here? I had surgery done on both of my eyes, and I don't really want to move them a lot (or look at webpages blaring with white light) 19:00:31 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:23 I don't really want to type a lot. 19:01:51 also, you might like to see if you can get your screen inverted 19:01:58 Quadrescence: ECL's reader is implemented in C, and quite readable. 19:02:08 Well, that's fine. Maybe I should just carefully formulate some questions and ask them when I'm sure about what I want to know. 19:02:18 trittweil: Hum, I'll take a look. 19:02:26 that if you're familiar with the reader 19:02:48 I'm familiar, but only that. 19:02:55 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:03:05 Quadrescence: Understanding the reader ist not difficult, although its clhs section may seem intimidating at first. 19:04:06 I guess I'll take kpreid's and your advice on reading that part of clhs first (and try to invert the page :) 19:04:51 I do have some hacks that make it possible to use M-. for ECL to jump at the appropriate C sources. It was my intention to clean it up, and send it upstream, but I haven't done so yet. 19:05:58 ejs1 [n=eugen@77-109-29-60.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 19:06:13 Somehow I get the impression that a 0.004 second lang is a bit unacceptable for slot reads. 19:06:19 am I mistaken? 19:06:29 sykopomp: that seems absurdly high 19:06:58 unless some sort of per-slot persistency thing (elephant etc. ) is involved 19:07:03 rsynnott: I think so, too. But that's for a multi-inherited chain of 50 prototypes 19:07:05 (even then, it's not low) 19:07:13 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:07:28 (I haven't done any memoizing yet, so the inheritance chain is calculated once every single time a slot is accessed) 19:07:39 ah :) 19:07:55 is such a huge chain really necessary? 19:08:09 probably not, but I wanted to see what it might look like 19:08:29 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:09:29 ice_four [n=ice_four@host86-131-244-48.range86-131.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:35 it's only 0.005/100 at the 9th level of the hierarchy (with each object inheriting 2-3 parents) 19:09:43 I guess that's not too bad. 19:14:34 -!- qbg [n=quickbas@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 19:16:44 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177152019.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:17:44 lispm [n=joswig@f054053068.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:18:09 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E456BD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:20 anryx [n=anryx@213.210.175.188.adsl.nextra.cz] has joined #lisp 19:18:43 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:21:36 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:21:38 I think I am going to make a flowchart of this reader algorithm. :| 19:23:49 evenin' 19:24:06 Hello sir. 19:25:43 Hey Quadrescence 19:25:46 How's code? 19:26:25 Not very good. My eyes ache and etc. 19:27:23 (: 19:28:52 No :( 19:28:53 My tailbone aches. We could do a trade. 19:29:07 No. I had surgery -- that's why they ache. 19:29:13 laser? 19:29:21 What's up with your eyes? 19:29:49 No, surgery on the inner muscles. (i.e., muscles on the inner part of both my eyes) 19:29:57 wow. that sounds complicated. 19:30:13 Cut the muscles, re-attached them, and then went back a bit and tacked down part of the muscle. 19:30:21 So, as said, you don't want to trade. :) 19:30:28 wow. 19:31:26 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.224.129] has quit ["“I'm rather conservative when it comes to tech spendings and flushing money down the toilet.”"] 19:31:53 That sounds like shit, mate! 19:32:31 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 19:32:48 knobo [n=user@ti100710a080-3181.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 19:33:09 Yeah, it's actually the second day after the surgery. Nonetheless, they still hurt, and bla bla bla. 19:33:39 vasa [n=vasa@mm-96-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 19:34:21 do you get better vision out of the deal? 19:34:30 or at least, keep your vision from getting worse 19:34:32 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 19:35:08 schme_, tailbone? been snowboarding? 19:35:18 eek 19:35:36 Quadrescence: didn't they give you some sort of opiate or something afterwards? 19:35:56 yeah, this man deserve a ePercocet 19:35:57 rsynnott: No. 19:36:17 :( 19:36:22 that blows 19:36:33 the whole pain management thing sucks 19:36:42 they go from one extreme to the other 19:37:04 first you can't get pain meds to save your life 19:37:07 knoppix [n=knoppix@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:37:26 It actually doesn't hurt a whole lot. It aches mostly, and hurts more sharply when I move my eyes left or right at all (and you move your eyes more than you think -- this proves it to me) 19:37:32 then they realise this is silly, and go in the opposite direction and hand out Oxy like candy, which gets abused 19:37:42 and back to point one 19:38:22 Quadrescence: good luck on healing up 19:39:08 crod [n=cmell@cb8a94-136.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:39:46 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a18-179.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:40:20 Adamant: Thanks. I think keeping my mind on lisp moreso than not-lisp will help. 19:40:30 yup 19:40:38 if video games work for pain relief, coding can 19:46:14 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit ["Leaving..."] 19:50:01 doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 19:51:10 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:52:28 -!- Beeet [n=stathis@athedsl-303109.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:53:42 How can I break a long line in clisp? In C I can put a \ and continue in the next. 19:54:07 -!- funebre [n=mfunebre@c-67-170-13-67.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:54:29 Beket: press CR and go on. 19:54:31 Quadrescence, could use some morphine 19:54:49 Beket, abbreviate Common Lisp as either CL or Lisp. clisp is an implementation of the language Common Lisp. 19:54:57 ...implementation of a compiler for the language... 19:54:58 weirdo: http://img171.imageshack.us/img171/285/img0057mc9.jpg 19:54:59 ;) 19:55:06 -!- Jarv2 is now known as Jarvellis 19:55:10 (goes for both eyes) 19:55:17 Thanks ASau / tic 19:55:36 Quadrescence, holy crap 19:55:42 what happened here? 19:55:53 The surgery. 19:57:36 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 20:00:04 hope things will be better now? 20:00:45 I hope so. If not, it was worth a shot. 20:01:44 Lisp reader, lisp reader. 20:05:26 Oh god. I hate eye stuff. 20:07:18 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:07:59 -!- knoppix is now known as Hun 20:08:12 jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:28 galdor [n=galdor@bur91-2-82-231-160-213.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 20:09:13 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 20:12:23 tic: No. I bought a "chin-up bar multi" from Casall. It's a thingie you mount in standard door and you use it for doing chin-ups. So all good until after 20 repetitions and the whole thing falls down. Hit my tailbone and the back of my head kinda bad. Complete piece of crap that thing. 20:12:46 schme_, thanks for letting me know. I won't buy it then. 20:13:11 tic: It seemed a very good thing, almost too good to be true for the 359:- . I guess it was :) 20:13:12 *rsynnott* would worry about destroying the doorframe 20:13:26 the fixtures and fittings in this building are not good at all 20:13:35 rsynnott: I was too, until I realised how it worked. No problem with the doorframe :) 20:13:46 how does it hold itself up? 20:13:57 I'm buying one of the kind that costs a 0 more and I will drill some holes. 20:14:00 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-036-097.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:20 Hmm.. your body weight creates pressure that pulls it into the wall, and into the door frame from the other direction. 20:14:28 Which is great 'til it falls down ;) 20:14:55 schme_: it shouldn't fall down if it has the cantilever design. 20:15:05 *schme_* googles cantilever 20:15:15 I think it's cantilever 20:15:23 people seem to injure themselves with those things an awful lot 20:15:24 it's the one you described 20:15:28 I'm not sure why they bother 20:15:34 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 20:15:44 the ones that suck are the in-doorframe ones 20:16:17 Adamant: It's pretty much this: http://www.pullupbar.com/ 20:16:32 I'm certain the idea is that it should *not* fall down, but yet it did. 20:16:36 yeah, that is the non-sucky kind 20:16:59 remember, don't pull backward, go forward 20:17:03 Well. my tail bone and my head says something else. 20:17:17 ? 20:17:27 also make sure you added the clip to the top of the doorframe that they provide 20:17:29 also helps 20:17:36 oh. 20:17:49 that is what that lil strange shaped thing was for. 20:17:53 shit I think I threw that away. 20:18:01 It had no instructions with it. 20:18:11 ah, then that is their fault 20:18:16 A macro character is, for example, # or , or ` or ), right? 20:18:36 Ya well it's crap I say :) 20:18:36 schme_: you don't want to try the extending in-doorframe ones 20:18:41 they are truly awful 20:18:55 No I'm getting one that I will drill some holes in the wall and mount. 20:19:08 ah 20:19:18 I wonder if I can get a new clip. Also I wonder if I will ever dare try this fucker again even with a clip. 20:19:29 Hi all, for those interested, there's a brand new abcl release (0.12) available. 20:20:03 Adamant: Seriously though, what do you mean with pull forward, not backwards? 20:20:28 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:56 if you jump backwardish to get on and up without a clip in the doorframe (and if you do a really huge backward jump with the clip) 20:21:30 you ruin the cantilever part and it will fall out of the door 20:21:37 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:22:22 huh. 20:22:26 I was just hanging in it. 20:22:29 20 reps and BAM! 20:22:44 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 20:22:45 put forward pressure on it and it makes the cantilever work and it stays in tighter 20:23:00 This only makes sense if I am "on the floor" no? 20:23:07 ? 20:23:22 and the clip is essential 20:23:46 you won't fall most of the time without it, but you will fall sometimes 20:23:57 mulander [n=user@nat-4.interq.pl] has joined #lisp 20:24:13 -!- Hun [n=knoppix@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:24:14 Ok I just don't understand this backwards/forwards thing. 20:24:21 *rsynnott* resolves to avoid the scary home exercise equipment 20:24:33 it's not scary 20:24:47 Here is what I do. I put it up, start doing reps. So I'm already "on it" so to speak. After about 20 reps it just falls down. When I'm at the top too. 20:25:02 did you have any backward motion? 20:25:06 anyway, swimming is slightly less tedious :) 20:25:14 I had up and down motion ;) 20:25:21 Yes swimming is neat. 20:25:47 I pull meself up and down, I've never considered back and forward. 20:26:03 because it didn't have the retaining clip, it might have walked itself off the doorframe 20:26:16 Hmm.. 20:26:17 Adamant: please don't speak of clip here. Either it's OT, or ambiguous, being at the same hamming distance to clisp and clips, the first being a Common Lisp implementation, and the later an expert system implemented in lisp or C depending on the version. 20:26:31 I guess I need to buy a new one to get a clip. 20:26:42 Adamant: in case you didn't know, this channel is reserved to discussion of lisp in general and Common Lisp in particular. 20:26:42 pjb: sorry for lighting up your IRC client 20:26:48 phytovor [i=mitja@cpe-92-37-6-163.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 20:27:46 schme_: you can probably get a replacement online 20:27:58 Ya maybe. 20:28:04 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:28:10 I'm not convinced I actually want to use it though. It seems fucking dangerous. 20:28:15 if not from that company, another that sells similar ones 20:28:19 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:28:37 I only think there is the one company :) 20:28:43 there isn't 20:28:45 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:28:50 Thanks though, I'll check it out. 20:28:55 mine is from a different one. 20:29:01 In sweden? 20:29:12 ;) 20:29:14 it's all made in China dude 20:30:52 Well just one company selling 'em :) 20:31:28 Either way I didn't quite like it. It didn't allow any wide grips, so I dunno. 20:31:29 oh well. 20:31:43 So lisp you say? 20:31:49 Adamant: Thanks for the info on the clip (: 20:31:57 the speech impairment? 20:32:15 hahahah 20:33:27 schme_: quit annoying p4scal 20:34:20 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@77-109-29-60.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:36:22 Hun [n=knoppix@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:37:41 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 20:37:51 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008111318]"] 20:37:56 what is the current way to handle libraries? asdf, lispy, mudballs? Something else? 20:37:59 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.20] has joined #lisp 20:38:22 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054053068.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 20:38:24 btw 'evening all :) 20:38:25 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:38:26 mulander: asdf seems to be somewhat standard 20:38:37 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf45b.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 20:38:39 mulander: budballs could become the next big thing 20:38:41 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0DDA8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:07 madnificent: thanks for the reply 20:39:11 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:10 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:40:13 mulander: What do you mean by "handle libraries"? Downloading and installing 3rd party libraries? Or just managing packages that you've written yourself? 20:40:54 ahaas: handling 3rd party libs and possibly publishing Your own. 20:41:17 by handling I mean, downloading,installing,upgrading 20:41:28 mulander: I like clbuild. 20:41:34 I haven't tried mudballs. 20:43:27 Let me see if I got this right. When (basic) lisp is being read, symbols are being parsed, and then their meaning is looked up in a table? 20:43:51 which lisp? 20:44:00 Common Lisp, I suppose. 20:44:45 Quadrescence: yes, symbols are looked up at read time 20:45:40 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CDD6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:45:43 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 20:46:13 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:46:50 is there a better way to include a symbol in an external package in a buildscript than read-from-string? 20:47:31 -!- doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:47:52 it's like (progn (load-my-system) (funcall (read-from-string "my-system:run")) (quit)) 20:48:07 Hun: don't compile it. 20:48:24 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@pool-71-164-44-205.chrlwv.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:48:33 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:48:58 i have to in this case. i need a binary (which i can compile with ecl) that's usable inside another system 20:49:01 Hun: i.e. if you LOAD your build script, your top level forms will be read and evaluated one after the other. that way, you can load packages, then access symbols from their packages later on in the script. 20:49:57 i use ecl's asdf:make-build which let's me include a single init-form, where i hook this code 20:50:36 Hun: if you absolutely need to compile your initialization code, then you'll have to read and evaluate explicitly. 20:51:14 Hun: but you could use LOAD as your initialization form and put your initialization script into a file. maybe. 20:51:27 i'll think about it 20:51:28 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:53:50 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 20:54:57 (intern "RUN" "MY-SYSTEM") 20:55:38 Krystof: sure. not qure a "initialization script" though. 20:56:50 colouragga [n=simon@89.18.164.214] has joined #lisp 20:59:11 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:01:15 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-96-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:01:37 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:04:30 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:44 -!- anryx [n=anryx@213.210.175.188.adsl.nextra.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:04:51 anryx [n=anryx@213.210.175.188.adsl.nextra.cz] has joined #lisp 21:04:55 doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 21:05:08 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 21:08:20 Is this essentially how the lisp reader would work? http://rafb.net/p/dG5JHt37.html 21:08:44 I realize it lacks error checking and identifying of argument types and all. 21:09:43 I am using slime and I'd like to break a line so that: (let ((counter 0)) (defun .... But if I type enter there it evaluates the whole expression. Does anyone happen to know what am I missing? I've skimmed through the slime docs and didn't find anything relevant. 21:09:58 -!- doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:10:07 use C-j 21:10:09 Beket, use C-j, or store your code in a buffer. 21:10:21 using an extra file/buffer is preferred 21:10:52 Many thanks Hun / Riastradh. 21:11:57 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 21:12:20 should the second line of a docstring start hard on the left margin or be indented to line up with the start of the first line? 21:13:07 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-246.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:19 usually it starts on the left, otherwise there would be more white space in there 21:14:54 elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has joined #lisp 21:19:13 -!- phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:34 bah. the mcclim docs should use ch-image instead of ImageMagick. 21:20:10 *slyrus_* port installs ImageMagick. waits. 21:20:39 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:21:09 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:23:23 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:24 in the meantime... how can I get the width of a mcclim pane? 21:23:55 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:24:06 elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has joined #lisp 21:26:11 slyrus_: take the bounding-rectangle of the sheet-region. 21:26:50 slyrus_: make sure you use the right coordinates. You probably want device coordinates. 21:26:53 and use rectangle-width of that? 21:27:05 how do I choose which coordinates I'm using? 21:27:27 apply the device-transformation to the sheet-region 21:27:36 clim bounding-rectangle* 21:27:36 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/4-1.html#_157 21:28:26 I can't remember whether the sheet region is in the coordinate system of the sheet itself or of its parent. 21:28:35 you'll have to check the chapter on sheet protocols. 21:29:47 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.20] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:31:43 with sbcl how can i get my own ip address? 21:32:36 SBCL can't give you that. You'll have to talk to your internet service provider. :) 21:32:39 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.20] has joined #lisp 21:32:49 krumholt, define `your own IP address'. 21:32:57 aww! 21:33:06 like my network interfaces 21:33:23 Network interfaces? If that's a plural, you may have several IP addresses. 21:33:34 yes 21:33:47 *beach* prepares tomorrow's Lisp-talk in Paris by going to bed. 21:34:01 i need an api to retrieve all network interfaces 21:34:24 Ah, well, that'll be tricky involving OS-specific FFI calls to various ioctls. 21:34:29 the same thing ifconfig would do in linux 21:34:29 good night beach 21:34:31 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 21:34:47 ajourez [n=ajourez@91.180.118.56] has joined #lisp 21:34:48 FFI getifaddrs 21:34:49 uzaytek [n=uzaytek@88.227.184.216] has joined #lisp 21:35:10 Last thing I heard, that even linux moves this direction. 21:35:10 mornin' beach 21:35:50 beach, good luck. 21:36:12 Oh, that's convenient, ASau. How recently has Linux moved in this direction? 21:36:43 Riastradh: I don't know, but OpenMPI uses it for linux too in their 1.3b. 21:37:18 I think it is pretty recent change though. 21:37:39 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:37:55 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-036-097.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:37 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:19 Riastradh: for linux, use sysfs 21:39:35 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 21:39:38 I don't think it is wise. 21:40:17 p_l, sysfs doesn't help any more than getifaddrs(3) if the object is to work with any but the most bleeding-edge of Linux systems. 21:40:33 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:52 I'm not entirely sure what the best way to do this is... I'm trying to find a single item in a list, and replace that item with an expansion of the list of several objects 21:40:58 -!- dwave [n=ask@212251243246.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:41:15 Riastradh: What kind of data are you trying to get? 21:41:26 so... (1 2 3 4) => I want to replace 2 with (5 6 7), but have a flat list => (1 5 6 7 3 4) 21:41:30 You have to use system-specific libraries anyway. 21:41:52 Hence it is better to use portable and more stable interface. 21:42:01 In this case it is getifaddrs. 21:42:26 ioctl calls are less portable and more error-prone. 21:42:41 and the mcclim docs should use cl-pdf instead of ghostcript :) 21:43:19 isn't texinfo used? 21:43:36 (loop for x in list if (eql x 2) append '(5 6 7) else collect x) 21:44:48 jsnell: hah. Thank you. :) 21:46:59 -!- uzaytek [n=uzaytek@88.227.184.216] has left #lisp 21:47:10 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:48:36 -!- Hun [n=knoppix@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:50:15 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0DDA8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:50:29 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0DDA8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:50:31 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 21:51:39 -!- ShereKahn [n=ajourez@91.176.28.51] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:52:19 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 21:55:33 If i defin a function inside the body of let, what's the scope of it? Eg (let ((counter 0)) (defun () ())) ? 21:56:30 Sorry, (let ((counter 0)) (defun foo() ())) 21:56:37 normal scope 21:56:53 also see flet and labels 21:57:08 Thanks lnostdal! 21:58:10 the scope of the function is top level, but it can see counter, right? unlike in scheme, where it would be an internal function 21:58:36 It is forbidden to use define now, IIRC. 21:58:49 yes, macdice 21:58:56 I mean, "define" is restricted to top level now. 21:59:34 (let ((i 0)) (defun counter () (incf i))) 21:59:35 try it 21:59:53 What puzzles me a bit, is that (foo) can see counter and alter its value and the value will persist across various calls of (foo) 22:01:08 The environment is gone, but the binding stays there. 22:01:25 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-58.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:01:35 Is it because foo makes a reference to counter ? 22:01:51 -!- davazp [n=user@49.Red-83-49-74.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:02:49 Beket: it is like this: mkdir subdir; (cd subdir; touch this; process this) & (wait 1; rm -rf subdir) 22:03:03 You don't see it, but it's there. 22:03:18 Thanks ASau, I kind of get it. 22:04:20 wow, the most unusual explanation of closures i've ever seen... :) 22:04:31 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Garbage-Collection.html What would the handle be in this case? And do closures like that get garbage collected if there are no other references to object? (besides that closure) 22:04:59 sykopomp: what handle? 22:05:08 pkhuong: in the example in finalize. 22:05:32 sykopomp: anything you want to release when it's not used anymore. 22:05:59 closures get garbage collected when there aren't any references to them, including the finalization table. 22:07:22 attila_lendvai: you never did this: 22:07:24 $ pwd 22:07:24 pwd: getcwd() failed: No such file or directory 22:07:30 right? 22:07:32 ;) 22:07:57 mkdir tmp; (cd tmp && xterm &) & (wait 1; rmdir tmp) 22:08:18 -!- repnop [n=Mage@adsl-69-225-12-66.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:08:51 ASau: Does that really have anything to do with closures? 22:09:24 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:09:38 Sure. The process is closed over its working directory, as an object for which there is no externally visible name. 22:10:54 ASau: i freak out if i have to deal with unix shells and i'm really sorry for all the time i wasted to collect my not that limited shell knowledge 22:12:00 ASau: that's a really neat explanation 22:12:15 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:12:22 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:12:37 This has nothing to do with Unix shells, really. 22:14:07 Actually the proper explanation has nothing to do with working directory. 22:14:12 It is open file what matters. 22:14:18 yes, and the cd is unnecessary 22:14:33 Sure. 22:14:36 if unix let you delete a dir without deleting the files in it first... 22:14:40 But this is less obvious. 22:14:46 then you could do interesting things with the working dir 22:15:20 It is what you have to explain to novice unix admin, 22:15:33 when he tries to remove too large log file. 22:15:50 Ok, I believe you all, but I still doubt the virtue of that example to explain closures in Lisp. 22:16:00 ASau: "step 2: kill the server" 22:16:05 No. 22:16:11 :-) 22:16:44 You are to destroy the object itself (":>log") instead of destroying the binding ("unlink log", "rm log"). 22:16:47 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:16:52 *kpreid* nods 22:17:20 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 22:17:41 this is OT, so I'll shut up after this question: what happens if the writer didn't open it in append mode, and encounters this shortened file? 22:17:57 What shortened file? 22:18:08 kpreid: he creates the hole. 22:18:17 Unlinking the directory entry doesn't change the file. 22:18:25 *p_l* is astonished how often people who get to work on Unix don't understand that filename and file is not the same 22:18:29 Ah. So you really really want append mode for a well-behaved server. 22:19:01 If you use standard logging tools (syslog), you have it in append mode. 22:19:35 You can also force some file to be append-only on some systems (i think BSD allowed that) 22:19:36 syslogd behaves "well". 22:19:49 Can we continue this conversation somewhere else? I'm interested in the subject but don't want to bother #lisp 22:20:08 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:20:12 I think this thread is over. 22:20:24 replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-5-146.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:20:35 If you're interested, you can find us on #netbsd. 22:21:01 well, this is hardly a netbsd thing ... 22:21:56 Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:21:57 It doesn't matter much. We use to talk about other systems there occasionally. 22:23:18 segv [n=mb@72-255-41-76.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:25 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:28:15 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.80.232] has joined #lisp 22:28:50 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-158-30.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:30:04 -!- ebzzry__ [n=rmm@124.217.68.7] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:31:13 Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:34 -!- Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-303109.home.otenet.gr] has quit [] 22:33:44 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:35:24 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:35:25 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:35:46 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:00 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:53 http://paste.lisp.org/display/72156 :) 22:37:59 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-15-61.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:41:09 adeht: is that runnable? :P 22:41:30 yes 22:41:30 hm. Maybe not with some other stuff. 22:41:35 it requires cl-gd 22:42:41 sweet. I'll try it in a little while. 22:44:31 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114161225.3.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 22:44:45 adeht: that task seems perfectly adapted to changing the target adaptively. Start with a scaled down version, move to a more detailed version (and scale the best instances up) when you seem to hit a minimum, ... 22:46:04 hmm, yes that sounds like a good plan 22:47:14 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-135-219.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 22:48:11 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:49:38 -!- aka-aka [i=dba322f1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a296507308238a97] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:44 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:50:59 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-90-157.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:51:14 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:51:16 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:53 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:06 saikat_ [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:24 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:57:42 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:58:12 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:03 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:21 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 23:03:24 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:52 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:03:55 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:05:19 -!- Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:46 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:08:07 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:09:51 ("repost") Is this essentially how the lisp reader would work? http://rafb.net/p/dG5JHt37.html 23:10:09 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 23:10:46 elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has joined #lisp 23:11:34 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:12:05 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl5-67-184.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:13:35 BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.204.19.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 23:14:01 guys, do you recall the names of the founders of QPX? 23:14:27 founders of qpx? you mean founders of ita? 23:15:16 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:36 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:54 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:18:34 Quadrescence: no, you're conflating read time and evaluation time 23:18:55 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:09 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 23:20:08 -!- macdice [n=macdice@78-86-162-220.zone2.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["call/cc bed"] 23:20:32 trittweil: Hum, so is any of it correct (again, essentially)? 23:20:58 I know there are more checks that go on, according to the hyperspec (e.g., EOF checks, etc) 23:23:47 h4ns: oh yes right 23:24:03 Quadrescence: your step 4 is eval. the lisp reader does not (usually) do this 23:24:15 h4ns: what was their story really, they started from nothing and built the planning software solution and a company around it, right? 23:24:18 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:24:22 so what you did was not implement READ but (EVAL (READ)) 23:24:35 Hun: That's what I assumed what was implied by trittweil's statement. Thanks. 23:25:11 there's another step. the reader checks if the current character is a macro-character for special dispatch 23:25:28 Hun: I should have noted that. Right. 23:26:15 So would CL just do this sort of thing recursively, using a stack? 23:26:40 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 23:26:50 I have a feeling I'm deviating from the point of lisp -- because for some reason, that feels a bit wrong. 23:27:00 peter_12 [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:09 i don't know how specific readers do it... the standard dragon-book-thingy would be to just use a recursive definition and let the lalr do its job 23:28:03 that you implement a lexer (thingy that reads exactly one token at once and returns it) and a parser (thingy that combines the tokens to a (hopefully) useful tree) 23:28:16 hmm... what broke between SLIME and SBCL in the last couple weeks? 23:28:46 though as lisp is pretty simple for the base syntax, you can just use a simple recursive definition 23:29:18 Hun: Right. I was going to say, I don't think parsing lisp really needs a full-blown lexer/parser in the same sense something like C/C++/etc. do. 23:29:38 Since most of it, besides the macro characters, are already in the form they should be in, essentially. 23:29:54 yep. that's part of its beauty... 23:29:59 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl5-67-184.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:30:18 i usually use a stripped down lisp as the IR of my toy compilers... then i can leave the code-gen stage out and just eval it :) 23:30:42 looks like it was something in my slime-history 23:31:01 so what about ITA founders? 23:32:52 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:33:06 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.56.174] has joined #lisp 23:33:15 tcr pasted "for quadrescense" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72159 23:33:58 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:33:59 slyrus_: some symbol removal from sb-debug (or sb-di) 23:35:15 hmm... this new SBCL build seems to be a bust. 23:35:18 trittweil: what could this be? when i run ecl in slime and load cl-ppcre, something start's bugging on with-unique-names 23:35:31 randomly hanging during compilation of relatively innocuous stuff 23:35:44 whom should i send the bug-report to? slime, ecl or ppcre? :) 23:35:52 any two of them work for me 23:36:27 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:32 Hun: what's the error? 23:37:07 WITH-UNIQUE-NAMES is not of type CONS. [Condition of type TYPE-ERROR] 23:37:31 i can't get to the condition. slime is completely broken after that and constantly breaks into sldb recursively 23:38:43 backtrace? 23:38:45 i have slime-fancy and slime-asdf loaded... but it also breaks without them 23:39:33 no backtrace available in ecl.. i don't know if i can somehow asdf:load-op with full debug. with debug < 2, backtrace is not available in compiled code 23:40:21 I've got not clue. Look if swank-ecl uses with-unique-gensysms, or cl-pccre 23:40:24 when i select the continue restart, i can continue using slime. as soon as i'm hitting space it breaks again, seemingly on lookup of completions 23:41:08 is type-checking special variables allowed for the user as per ansi cl? 23:41:08 loading cl-ppcre in ecl without slime works? 23:41:28 yep. in compilation to binary and in the repl 23:41:53 weirdo: what do you mean? 23:42:38 Hun: (SPC involves slime-autodoc, not completion.) 23:43:23 it breaks immediately after getting back to the repl, before the prompt reappears.. i think the cause might be something in the swank communication 23:43:43 trittweil, http://groups.google.pl/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/69765aa13abb0f5d 23:44:05 sbcl has some way to type-check specials, can a user portably do that? 23:44:06 i see the representation of the compilation report of the last fasl, then it breaks 23:44:58 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:45:12 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:45:21 weirdo: what do you mean? 23:45:21 hmm. imo subtypep has strange semantics, e.g. (typep '(integer 1) '(integer 0)) => nil 23:45:23 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:45:40 weirdo: you asked typep, not subtypep. 23:46:10 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 23:46:12 weirdo: Portably, across sbcl, yes. 23:46:22 oh :) 23:46:39 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:46:55 for subtypep, a language lawyer will probably decide it's the only possible outcome :) 23:48:37 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0DDA8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["bed time"] 23:49:10 -!- kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has quit ["leaving"] 23:49:23 kleppari [n=spa@bitbucket.is] has joined #lisp 23:50:48 holycow [n=rtaylor@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:48 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:51:43 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:53:19 -!- trittweil [n=rittweil@rayhalle1.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:53:48 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@49.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:54:22 -!- ajourez [n=ajourez@91.180.118.56] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:55:47 bobrown [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 23:55:50 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:56:18 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp