00:00:24 -!- Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:02:46 God nambit, no matter how I tweak the population size, crossover rate or mutation rate the average fitness isn't steadily going up it's just flailing around like a drunk. I've tested pretty much all the various functions to make sure they produce stuff properly as well.. hmmm 00:03:13 Umm... 1.0.22 has the same failure as 1.0.23. 00:03:35 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:04:04 stassats: I particularly hate how the replaced the default mailman archives interface with a much less useful one 00:07:35 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:07:58 peter_12_ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:41 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:11:08 nyef: my mistake, nikodemus made that change in 1.0.21.26 so 1.0.21 should be the right tarball to use 00:11:37 Right, was just trying to figure out what the actual damage was and work from there to determine the appropriate revision, etc. 00:11:42 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:12:17 I suppose clg earned this damage, though, monkeying with private symbols in sb-alien. 00:13:49 sort of. I have the impression that the author copied that piece of code straight from cffi 00:14:00 IIRC the code was identical 00:14:00 Still earned the damage. 00:14:25 -!- aack [n=ack@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit ["ik ga weg"] 00:16:47 -!- elderK [n=elderK@202.20.97.243] has left #lisp 00:18:12 Does this mean that cffi no longer works with current sbcl? 00:19:26 cffi was fixed not long after that change 00:19:34 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:19:38 Fair enough. 00:22:04 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-238.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:23:16 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:24:36 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-045-127.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:22 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:25:58 *nyef* frowns. 00:26:15 "Cannot redefine standard t ype NIL." 00:26:25 At least the error message is better... 00:27:30 Is there a way to do something like "finally collect 1" using the loop macro? 00:27:36 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:27:59 kzar: Use collect into and then finally return (append ...) ? 00:28:36 Do something creative with your termination test? 00:28:36 nyef: I'm collecting something else normally, I just want the list it returns to always end in 1 00:29:04 or (append (loop ...) '(1)) 00:29:29 stassats: Yea that's how I am doing it ATM, I just assumed there was an easy way 00:30:26 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 00:30:44 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:31:01 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:31:40 Damn that's the second time my Emacs barfed this evening 00:31:47 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@AStrasbourg-157-1-81-17.w90-56.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:20 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-30-92.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:43 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-055-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:39:19 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:39:23 what can of "learning" algorithms would I need to if I want to implement this functionality: paste text into a text-area and the software would automatically parse that into an appropriate address, telephone number, product summary and such? 00:40:58 I have various products of similar specs, models and brand names. i just wanna paste a blob of text and be able to get back a # object, and such 00:41:05 regexes just don't feel right 00:41:27 OK I got my program working :D thank god for that 00:41:37 Right, I'm giving up on this clg thing for now. 00:42:13 Tried on four different versions of SBCL, and got two different failure modes, one of which is a known failure mode and the other of which doesn't appear to be. 00:44:11 fusss: if you have a lot of examples, you could build an algorithm that trains on the known data... It is probably best to write down all the (meta) knowledge you have and think from there on 00:44:37 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:45:15 really? learning algorithm? never done such a thing. how long to pick it up (read a few "genetic algorithms" tutorials but doozed off on the biology chapters) 00:45:26 lies, damn lies, and heuristics 00:46:43 ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.84.205] has joined #lisp 00:47:43 fusss: my thought, having never attacked a task like this before, is to write a parser for the addresses in every format you can think of, and add some kind of confidence heuristic to choose the best output 00:49:13 they're not actually addresses, but product descriptions. i'm aggregating products from various sites that use various formats, running that through magic, and publishing a processed RSS feed out of them 00:49:31 problem is, the vendors don't even keep the same format for all products 00:49:36 oh, right. I'm distracted and not paying attention. same idea, though. 00:49:53 they cut and paste from their supply spread-sheets which comes from anywhere 00:50:34 that sounds like fun. 00:51:09 fusss: if you'd want to build something like that, you'll probably need a huge database of examples. On top of that, you might find the names of products by googling them and seeing if they are sold (just an idea) 00:51:37 Could you maybe use mechanical turk? 00:51:42 say, I paste a text like "2001 red Diablo with 80k miles. asking price $100" i want something like #S(VEHICLE :MAKE "Lamborghini" :MODEL "diablo" :YEAR 2001 :PRICE "100000") 00:52:11 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:52:24 i already have 7 years worth of database. enough material to train an automated Turk or Greek. really. 00:52:58 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.80.48] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:53:02 can they be anything, or just cars? 00:53:13 i think i'm gonna flatten the text-entry into a line and use sequence analysis 00:53:23 hefner: _just_ cars 00:53:31 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 00:53:42 that could easen up the process a lot 00:53:43 of _just_ one make :-) 00:54:03 _whatever_ 00:54:18 gaah 00:55:01 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:55:35 fusss: so you can readily filter the model name etc out of it... Then you can define when they are built (and thus, what could be a valid date). Other numbers must be mileage (or equivalent) and price. That should be trainable 00:56:17 i never done any of that genetic algorithm stuff tho. how long til i learn it? 00:56:30 fusss: I really don't know the inner workings, but it could be trainable with something like a neural network. 00:56:39 sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 00:56:45 fusss: I've only toyed with it, so I'm not a referense 00:56:59 ok, thanks guys 00:57:22 madness. this is a problem to be solved with duct tape and a pile of hacks. 00:58:05 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:59:35 I realize this is a stupid question but I've been working on this problem for about twenty minutes. Can one not send a defvared *variable* as a parameter to a function? I've been sending it like so: (diagnose "title" *lst*) and no errors are thrown but it doesn't seem to have access to *lst* from within the function. 01:00:18 i think I can hack it up with an elaborate FSM. 01:00:23 Where my diagnose function is something like: (defun diagnose (title db)) 01:00:25 diego [n=diego@201.230.71.60] has joined #lisp 01:00:36 lisp-newbie1: it doesn't 'obtain access' to *lst*, it just receives its value. is the value of *lst* what you think it is? 01:00:53 -!- diego is now known as Guest35091 01:01:11 although you haven't told us what actually goes wrong 01:01:27 HET2 [n=diman@securewlan-233-027.pns.univie.ac.at] has joined #lisp 01:01:35 gloaming [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:57 hefner: Probably isn't. 01:02:19 Is the value a copy of the elements in *var*? 01:02:30 Or is it a pointer value? 01:02:48 well, it's the value. you can call that a pointer, if you like. 01:03:03 I see. Thank you kindly hefner for the direction. 01:03:06 it certainly isn't a copy, and it's not a pointer _to_ *var* 01:03:31 I see. Well I don't want to waste any more of your time -- I'll mess around with it for a bit :o) Thanks again. 01:03:52 lisp-newbie1: read up on call by value 01:04:45 if *lst* is a special variable, then when you pass *lst* to any function, the value of the object *lst* points to gets passed 01:05:43 it sure is too soon for you to be using special variables. i think you should just stick to lexical scoping for now. 01:06:26 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:07:15 -!- Guest35091 [n=diego@201.230.71.60] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:08:04 fusss: I'd guess he's using it as a global, or even a constant 01:08:16 oh 01:08:58 brb, nicotine et caffeine 01:13:23 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF2C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:15:20 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:15:42 -!- dtulig [n=dtulig@207.200.59.26] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:17:22 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:21:04 ths [n=ths@X43ef.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:22:04 wasabi________ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:23:55 Hmm. I think I just found a showstopper in sb-posix:readdir on SBCL. 01:24:57 Oh? 01:25:17 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483DF62.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:25:17 Wouldn't happen to be something to do with various systems handling of a dirent structure definition? 01:25:45 -!- gloaming [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:25:50 dtulig [n=dtulig@cpe-72-179-46-14.austin.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:25:56 cjn pasted "sb-posix:readdir broken" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72008 01:26:46 nyef: the problem is that there are valid POSIX strings that are not valid UTF-8 strings, and SBCL refuses to read such strings out of the alien object. 01:27:18 A POSIX dirent is any sequence of 8-bit values that does not include 0 or forward-slash. 01:27:21 Umm... So change your default encoding. 01:27:35 yeah sbcl is broken 01:28:13 it shouldn't assume that filenames, arguments, and environment variables are locale-encoded strings, since they quite often aren't 01:28:16 nyef: I don't think I can do that, I poked around in the SBCL sources, a while, and didn't find any way to tell it "raw 8-bit values". 01:28:31 heh. from some code of mine, (defmacro with-posix-interface (() &body body) `(let ((sb-alien::*default-c-string-external-format* :latin1)) ,@body)) 01:28:40 cjn: easiest workaround: LC_CTYPE=en_US.iso-8859-1 sbcl 01:28:42 cjn: Tell it :latin1 or something. 01:28:43 http://sykosomatic.org/tutorial.html Here's what I have so far. Any comments? Any ideas as to what I should cover? Am I covering things alright? Is it too complicated? 01:29:36 nyef, foom, hefner__: hrm, I'll try that. One second... 01:29:47 sykopomp: ... Was that an SOTN quote in there? 01:30:05 mono solved it like this: http://www.go-mono.org/docs/index.aspx?link=T%3AMono.Unix.UnixEncoding 01:30:09 nyef: SOTN? 01:30:17 Symphony of the Night. 01:30:22 not that I know of. 01:31:18 "... Tribute?!? You steal mens souls, and make them your slaves!" "Perhaps the same could be said of all religions. But enough talk, have at you!" 01:31:20 sykopomp: I am going to read that tomorrow, I will let you know what I think 01:31:35 esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:31:44 kzar: it's very incomplete, but thank you, I look forward to your comments :) 01:31:47 nyef, foom, hefner__: thank you greatly, I've included hefner__'s macro in my return-nil-on-sb-error macro from the paste, and everything looks happy again. 01:32:29 nyef: oh that. Yes. 01:32:35 -!- hefner__ is now known as hefnr 01:32:40 The best thing on that page is "Q: Seriously?" "A: Ha ha only serious." 01:33:11 -!- wasabi_______ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:26 brandelune [n=JC@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:33:51 What's "ABLE"? 01:34:10 sykopomp: write more! 01:34:13 a basic lisp editor? 01:34:19 nyef: check out the link. It's a pretty interactive tutorial. It doesn't need any setup. 01:34:19 on ltk 01:34:36 I see no link there. 01:34:40 stassats: yeah. It's basically a nice little package that people can just run. It avoids the mess of explaining emacs + slime. 01:34:40 sykopomp: you can pretty much stop with the screenshots there and just tell the read to "evaluate" stuff :-) 01:34:46 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-255.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:34:49 able is what will bring lisp to the masses! Luckily, I may just use emacs 01:34:57 sykopomp: tell that to nyef 01:35:13 nyef: read that. 01:35:21 imagine how much more powerful able would be with a 3D defsystem editor! 01:35:28 how much more.. ABLE 01:35:34 heh 01:35:43 ABLE is nice right now, for the purpose of getting people started. 01:36:07 fusss: possibly, but I think it's nice to have the screenshots there, in case people want to follow along every single step of the way, visually. 01:36:16 I might make the screenies a little smaller, though. 01:37:02 sykopomp: It's a hot read. So really write more of this stuff. I'm going to use this tutorial when people ask about lisp. However, to be good it should contain the whole bunch (perhaps a series?) including macros, loop and the likes 01:37:28 madnificent: Yeah. I'm planning on covering the basics of CLOS, and then basic control structures. 01:37:29 and CLOS 01:37:48 I'm mostly wondering whether people think this is a nice format for the tutorial, and whether it's too wordy/not wordy enough/etc. 01:38:02 if this is okay, I'll just continue with other stuff from here. 01:38:10 fusss: the screenshots are good. if anything goes wrong, they can _see_ what they had to do. Sometimes you just misinterpret something (like forgetting the parens or the tilde in a format) 01:38:28 It strikes me as trying too hard to be informal. 01:38:29 sykopomp: its too ! imho 01:39:13 sykopomp: but that is okay for the first part... You could read something about why the lucky stiff (that ruby guy), he's very shouty too. It's trendy 01:39:15 nyef: that's just a sign of smug weenie-ism 01:39:19 nyef, madnificent: that makes sense. 01:39:42 madnificent: I'm sort of trying to do stuff the way the ruby community handles it. It seems to work for them. 01:39:44 Hrm... ABLE is, while seeming like a good idea, underwhelming me in terms of implementation. 01:39:44 i say keep at it, reddit fame awaits 01:40:20 nyef: it's good enough for what I need it for, which is basic evaluation, and an introduction to working in a text-ed+repl environment. 01:40:36 fusss: you flatter me. I just hope it ends up being useful. We really need to lower the barrier of entry :( 01:40:36 Oh, I'm not knocking it on those terms... 01:40:54 the ruby way of doing things is "why bother with language details; from hello world to shopping cart in 2 pages" 01:41:04 sykopomp: I really love it. This fits perfectly in my plan to convert people. We've got the perfect resources for the serious kinds (clhs and the pcl) 01:41:28 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-216.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 01:41:29 Just... Eesh. Tcl/Tk for a UI isn't on. 01:41:37 fusss: sometimes you need to get people started by doing that. I don't plan on pandering to their ignorance... more like easing them very slowly into a language that really is quite immense. 01:41:52 sykopomp: good point 01:42:01 fusss: whilst true, you can keep the spirit, but try to let them know more and more when they go further. That would be the good thing about a series 01:42:23 Hah! "Some system tray programs on Windows are known to be incompatible with Tcl/Tk meaning that ABLE will not start." 01:42:35 haha yeah 01:42:42 don't forget the people who will be reading SICP in conjunction; make sure your ABLE ships with a lisp that has TCO 01:42:51 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:43:06 wait, able doesn't run on windows for now? 01:43:09 I'm hoping someone makes something similar to ABLE with McClim. That would be most nifty. That, or I might try to do it myself if I get the time. 01:43:14 fusss: "All Lisps have Total Cost of Ownership!" 01:43:18 (fact (- n1) (* accum n)) is gonna barf on clisp 01:43:23 madnificent: it runs fine on windows. The boxes I've tested it on seem to be just fine. 01:43:42 okay, then I mustn't ignore the windows kids 01:44:01 fusss: whoa. Clisp doesn't do tco?? 01:44:08 sykopomp: so, will you make it a weekly edition? (heck, I'll read it myself just to know for what I can point people to it) 01:44:28 it has a jumptail call, but try a simple example with it. stack exhaustion galore! 01:44:43 madnificent: I just plan on writing the first basic tutorial as a quick introduction. If it turns out alright, I'll write some more tutorials, including one that covers how to set up an emacs environment on various operating systems. 01:45:09 *nyef* is thinking of writing something on implementing a video game emulator in Lisp. 01:46:00 ths_ [n=ths@X74f5.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:46:30 -!- HET2 [n=diman@securewlan-233-027.pns.univie.ac.at] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:48:11 *madnificent* foresees a lot of reading material in the (nyef: near?) future 01:48:53 cjn annotated #72008 with "sb-posix:readdir broken" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72008#1 01:49:27 anyone here happen to be good with xilinx fpgas? I'm trying to figure out how to upload a .bit file onto a board using command-line tools (the IDE is crashing on me incessantly) 01:49:43 lukego: I hear the best solution is to use windows. 01:50:00 I'll pretend I didn't hear that, for the moment. :) 01:50:29 cjn: quite the misnomer. 01:51:35 sykopomp: I've suggested (to no one in particular) writing something like ABLE in mcclim, except I imagined doing it as a joke, with the expectation that no one would really use it 01:53:44 pkhuong: ? You mean that the name of the paste is inaccurate? Well, we'll call it "fixable", then. By default, used as it appears in sbcl/contrib/sb-posix/posix-tests.lisp, it does not work on all filenames, which does defeat the point of having a readdir method. However, as noted in the followup, there is a simple way to fix it. I pasted hefner's fix there in hopes that google would a 01:53:45 id others who come across this problem. 01:53:49 hefner: This would be great. I would love to have a McClim ABLE-like editor. It doesn't really have to have much, but it would be fantastic for teaching purposes. 01:54:04 -!- ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.84.205] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:54:10 I don't imagine anyone using it once they learn to use a better environment. 01:54:16 I'm sure it would teach something, but it might be "don't use apps written with mcclim" 01:54:17 cjn: the name of the annotation, but mostly that of the macro. 01:54:28 hefner: hehehe 01:54:56 I'd actually like a somewhat vb6-like environment for lisp. Or maybe visual-studio-like. 01:55:35 nyef: do you know about CUSP? 01:56:02 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@223.pool85-49-171.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:10 Yes. Java-based solutions need not apply. 01:56:21 -!- ths [n=ths@X43ef.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:00 lol 01:57:06 nyef: emulator of what? z-machine? something new? 01:57:32 I was thinking maybe the SEGA Master System. 01:57:38 *hefner* chanced to meet an author of an sms emulator recently, has been agitated to pla with emulators 01:57:40 hah, funny 01:58:10 SMS seems like really neat hardware. 01:58:46 Yeah, Z80, SN76489, custom video based on a TMS9918, etc. 01:59:40 I just liked the colors and that they had the consideration to put in a timer for firing hblank interrupts 02:00:04 Yeah, having that built-in is cool. 02:00:21 Far better than some of the hacks the NES had to use to get the same effect. 02:00:45 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 02:00:57 On the small handful of games that were released on both the NES and the SMS, the SMS versions had better graphics. 02:01:28 So, who'd you meet? Anybody whose name I'd recognize? 02:03:09 the guy who wrote CrabEmu 02:03:32 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:03:35 Not familiar. Must have been after I stopped paying attention. 02:04:42 The other neat thing about doing an SMS emulator is that you just have to implement a TMS9918 and you can turn around and do SG-1000 and ColecoVision emulators. 02:05:13 (And once you have the SG-1000 done, you're a 6522 and a keyboard array away from an SC-3000...) 02:05:58 Which leads to the possibilities of the SF-7000 and the MSX... 02:09:06 -!- eevar [n=snuffpup@127.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:10:46 HET2 [n=diman@securewlan-233-027.pns.univie.ac.at] has joined #lisp 02:11:40 -!- brandelune [n=JC@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:11:47 dakeyras_ [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:40 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:13:43 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:19:17 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 02:22:37 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 02:24:24 dmoerner [n=dmr@ppp-71-139-23-60.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:07 (declare (optimizable-series-function)) hooray 02:26:22 pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has joined #lisp 02:28:52 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:29:12 -!- HET2 [n=diman@securewlan-233-027.pns.univie.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:29:31 nyef_ [n=nyef@pool-64-222-178-177.man.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:05 -!- dakeyras_ [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 02:32:25 -!- TDT [n=TDT@143.108.177.207.dyn.southslope.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:32:37 TDT [n=TDT@143.108.177.207.dyn.southslope.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:38 nyef__ [n=nyef@pool-70-109-135-200.cncdnh.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:47 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:33:57 dakeyras_ [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:19 I think that's a sign that I should go to bed. 02:34:21 G'night all. 02:34:30 -!- nyef__ [n=nyef@pool-70-109-135-200.cncdnh.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:37:22 tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has joined #lisp 02:38:14 what exactly does setf stand for again? set field? set form? 02:38:28 nobody knows for sure 02:39:53 i like "set place" p looks almost like f in my font 02:42:43 fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:12 -!- cjn [n=neufeld@ottawa-hs-206-191-28-140.s-ip.magma.ca] has quit ["Started wasting time elsewhere"] 02:46:44 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 02:48:07 -!- nyef_ [n=nyef@pool-64-222-178-177.man.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:51:19 another reason to hate closed source crap: "To connect to your FileMaker database remotely, fire up your browser and go to fmp7://192.168.10.0/my+database.fp7" 02:51:39 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-64-223-171-59.man.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:52:41 fusss: good god. D: 02:52:45 are they mad?! 02:54:21 somewhere on their site they say the cost of MySQL for a team of developers is $80k!111 02:54:22 well you have to pay extra for the web 02:55:04 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 02:55:13 that's pretty accurate, I charge everyone who wants MySQL as backing store almost that much 02:55:19 since it's so much harder than flat files 02:56:00 heh 02:57:25 I've been a happy bsd+postgresql user for databases so far but I don't underestimate the power of lisp-style or JSON style config files (XML intentionally omited) 02:58:00 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:03:03 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 03:03:10 -!- mait [n=user@genyv.rot.sgsnet.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:03:22 mait [n=user@genyv.rot.sgsnet.se] has joined #lisp 03:03:43 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 03:03:47 netaust1n [n=austinsm@72-254-136-53.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:06 I've had my eye on clouchdb lately. 03:04:33 it seems to be unmaintained, but I might see if it's still useful. Mapping to JSON is pretty nice in lisp :) 03:05:27 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@72-254-136-53.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:02 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 03:10:42 silas428 [n=ryan@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:31 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 03:14:57 mornin' 03:15:20 hey schme 03:15:48 Hello indeed 03:15:50 CLOS feels incredibly hard to explain. 03:16:28 Is there, by any chance, a flatten function? 03:16:34 Or need I write one. 03:16:41 lisp-newbie1: it's a very very common macro. Alexandria has one. 03:17:02 lisp-newbie1: but you can easily find the definition in a number of places, if you just want the one macro. 03:17:35 I'll look around then, thanks sykopomp. 03:17:53 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:59 lisp-newbie1: I'll paste it for you. Hold on :) 03:18:07 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:18:08 :o) You're too kind. 03:19:06 sykopomp pasted "flatten" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72013 03:19:31 Aw, I was realy close, too. 03:19:50 :o) Thank you again, sykopomp. 03:20:08 heh, no problem. I thought you didn't want to bother writing it, sorry ;) 03:22:41 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.84.205] has joined #lisp 03:23:13 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:23:35 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@72-254-136-53.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:23:41 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@12.233.20.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:24:09 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:24:09 -!- andrewy [n=irssi@cl-53.lax-01.us.sixxs.net] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:24:09 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-7f6ece2d41313ed8] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:24:09 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [orwell.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:24:09 -!- prip [n=_prip@host1-120-dynamic.53-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [orwell.freenode.net 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tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:27:29 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@69.166.35.201] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:27:43 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:27:45 -!- Robsynnott [i=5964906e@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-708d09f8fc9b6a4a] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 03:29:13 -!- housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Excess Flood] 03:29:34 housel [n=nhousel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 03:30:51 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@12.233.20.2] has joined #lisp 03:38:17 -!- phao [n=phao@20158138032.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:39:06 Good morning. 03:39:16 mornin' beach 03:40:05 -!- silas428 [n=ryan@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:43:27 fusss_ [n=kumi@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:29 lisp-newbie1: you know how it works right? you're basically collecting the leaves of the tree 03:46:26 as an exercise, remove the local function defined with LABELS :-) 03:46:41 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:48:04 felipe__ [n=felipe@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:58 *sykopomp* is starting to regret using CLOS in his tutorial. 03:49:29 bwahahaha 03:49:40 I haven't even touched on lists yet. It's funny. 03:49:43 -!- felipe__ [n=felipe@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:49:51 Well.. there are no lists ;) 03:49:55 felipe__ [n=felipe@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:06 everything is a list >:( 03:50:13 Bah! 03:50:41 Everything is a bunch of conses! 03:50:58 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 03:51:56 I'm trying to keep this as high-level as humanly possible. 03:52:01 manic12_ [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:16 I haven't done conditionals or loops yet, either. Those are coming soon, though :) 03:52:52 Is it an introductionary tutorial? 03:52:56 yup 03:52:57 hmmm.. 03:53:09 Cools. For the web? 03:53:10 http://sykosomatic.org/tutorial.html <-- this version is a few hours old 03:53:12 yup 03:53:36 the only thing I've added to that particular page is using variables 03:53:41 Very cool. More lisp stuff on the web is good web :) 03:53:43 -!- felipe__ is now known as felideon 03:53:53 I'd love comments, by the way. 03:53:59 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm158.epsilon100.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:55:06 What on earth is that crazy editor? 03:55:20 ABLE. It's a pretty barebones lisp editor. 03:55:35 it comes packaged with a lisp image, and requires no setup (plus, it's easy to use) 03:55:41 so it's perfect for getting people started. 03:56:30 :) 03:56:40 Also it makes for very good screenshots in a tutorial like this. 03:56:57 I don't really have much comments on the actual text and what not, but I love the screenshots in there! 03:57:05 thanks! 03:57:09 -!- felideon [n=felipe@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:57:18 felipe__ [n=felipe@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 03:57:54 hahaha 03:57:59 Also it is a funny read :) 03:59:47 -!- felipe__ [n=felipe@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:59:55 felipe__ [n=felipe@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:00:52 -!- felipe__ [n=felipe@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:04:19 felideon [n=felipe@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:18 . 04:05:32 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-0689e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["leaving"] 04:05:44 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-0689e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 04:07:46 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:09:40 the friendliest intros in computing, Little Lisper/Schemer and Leo Brodie's Starting Forth were both very annoying to me 04:12:00 that happens 04:12:21 some people think they are too dumbed down and insult their intelligence 04:13:28 Gentle Intro was a nice intro to Lisp book and not too dumbed down 04:14:18 agreed, dst wrote a good book there 04:15:03 fusss: was it the dumbed-down thing that bothered you? 04:15:43 I personally don't know if I like Gentle Intro as an introductory text anymore. I find it annoying that so many introductions force you to mess around with evaluation and symbols. Constructing lists with QUOTE, etc. 04:16:24 sykopomp: the visuals. i still associate "dictionary" with a monk/scribe from some Dominican diocese, because that's what the dictionary guy in the forth book looks like 04:17:01 hahaha 04:17:58 compiler, interpreter, dictionary, execution, etc. all these have been anthromorphized to irritation 04:18:48 I've really enjoyed PCL thus far. Haven't really read anything besides that yet. Seems to give one a big enough taste to get by and provides enough background knowledge so one would be able to look up what they don't know. 04:18:58 Plus it's exciting. 04:19:23 yeah. i loved ANSI CL as well, even though PG teaches a subset of CL :-P 04:19:44 My friend suggested ANSI CL was great but would be a bit over my head. 04:19:58 So I'm holding off until I have at least finished PCL. 04:20:19 OT question, any OS X users in here that know how to get rid of the scrollbar in Terminal? 04:20:25 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:20:40 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:20:43 PG teaches a non-idiomatic subset of CL :P 04:20:44 yeah I just finished Gentle Intro and am half way through PCL 04:21:09 felideon: What are your opinion of Gentle Intro? 04:21:21 Oh never mind, you already said -- sorry. 04:21:27 :) 04:21:33 I have been trying to use clsql in this package i have and have run into into a problem - for some odd reason if i load my package with ASDF (in its .asd i have that it depends on clsql) and then type (clsql:locally-enable-sql-reader-syntax) and then try to use the clsql bracket syntax i get errors, but if i first load clsql with asdf, run the locally-enable-sql-reader-syntax, and then load my package, things work great. any help on what t 04:21:49 Sometimes I eval print and loop without reading. 04:21:57 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:22:40 the error i get is that the REPL seems to think that my bracket syntax is just a variable and is unbound - it seems like the locally-enable-sql-reader-syntax is not really enabling it 04:23:04 (when running it after loading my package) 04:23:20 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:23:31 lisp-newbie1: yeah PCL is kind of terse so Gentle Intro was a nice complement 04:25:14 but PCL really gets you hooked 04:29:55 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:30:52 I've been addicted for the past week or two. 04:31:15 Just about done with my medical diagnostics expert system in lisp and it was the best experience I've had with a language. 04:31:40 nite 04:31:40 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 04:33:04 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-105-4-172.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:33:20 -!- fusss_ [n=kumi@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["Hey! Where'd my controlling terminal go?"] 04:33:33 -!- Zoba [n=Zoba@wva4410rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:38:12 sykopomp annotated #71997 with "rough part 2" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71997#1 04:39:51 -!- felideon [n=felipe@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["leaving"] 04:40:13 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:35 Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 04:46:48 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has joined #lisp 04:47:44 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 04:48:29 I am having trouble with tracing the functions defined inside a let construct. (really closures) .. If I move the function out of the let construct and convert let-bindings to defparameters .. it works.. but when inside the let construct I cannot use the trace macro .. does anybody have any suggestions? 04:51:11 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:51:59 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-7f6ece2d41313ed8] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:54:37 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:55:51 -!- netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@72-254-136-53.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 04:55:52 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:58:08 -!- mait [n=user@genyv.rot.sgsnet.se] has left #lisp 05:06:22 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:10:11 Does anyone know of a good resource on top-down 2d physics engines? 05:11:19 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1DC29.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:12:29 mogunus: check with arbscht, he is our resident physicist. 05:13:29 beach: Ah. I've been looking around and everything I can find so far is side-scrollers... 05:14:10 mogunus: what sort of physic effects do you want to simulate? 05:14:39 pkhuong: say I have a box, or a triangle, or whatever. I want it to weigh a certain amount/have a certain amount of inertia. 05:15:12 pkhuong: I want to be able to attatch motors to arbitrary points on the shapes, and have the direction of their force realistically effect the path of the shape. 05:15:51 -!- jollygood_______ [n=jolly@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:15:56 pkhuong: so, say, if one motor was on the corner of a rectangle, and another on the midpoint of an adjacent side, it would tend to list properly. 05:16:06 unless the midpoint motor was kicking out more force. 05:16:12 also, colissions. 05:16:15 Wow. 05:16:24 (spelling) 05:16:36 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 05:17:46 jollygood_______ [n=jolly@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 05:18:40 mogunus: that will help anyone who'd like to point you toward resources. Diablo 2 has a physics engine too ;) 05:19:12 pkhuong: really? I' 05:19:25 ve never played. I liked the first one a lot. 05:20:02 bounding boxes and some inelastic collisions (: 05:20:19 Heh, cool. I should play... 05:21:02 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:43 I don't intend to start on this top-down 2D thing until I have some actual, sane math that I understand to implement. 05:22:32 mogunus: you could start with high school mechanical physics. 05:22:57 segv [n=mb@p4FC1F6C3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:31 pkhuong: I suppose I could? My high school only covered particle motion. 05:26:20 mogunus: friction, newton's law, ideal elastic collisions? (right, diablo would have had that for stuff bouncing off walls, not inelastic, thinko :) 05:27:03 pkhuong: I get the feeling from what I've been finding on the web that I'm going to need to implement some kind of taylor series based integrator to get the sort of composite bodies that I want. 05:28:05 pkhuong: But I suppose it's much better to at least have something really simple, instead of nothing. 05:29:36 mogunus: I guess it depends on how you want to model stuff. IIRC, we managed to model some interesting systems by working at a high level back (this is a block of mass m, not a bunch of particles tightly bound together) in high school. It's full of holes, but still interesting and fairly simple. 05:29:38 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:30:50 The problem is that my professor wants to be able to evolve multibodied creatures out of motors and other... stuff 05:31:08 He wasn't too specific about what else. 05:31:56 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:34:55 mogunus: ah, that sort of simulation. There was a lot of those floating around in the mid-late 90s. You might want to look in old ALife link archives. 05:36:56 pkhuong: Sigh. Thanks, these may prove helpful. 05:37:22 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-168-155.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:41 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-168-155.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:38:15 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-168-155.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:20 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-168-155.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:38:34 foobar123 [n=dcl@h235.180.117.75.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:43 I just don't think the line of research is very productive or useful. I prefer information theory and statistics. 05:40:09 -!- foobar123 [n=dcl@h235.180.117.75.dynamic.ip.windstream.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:40:42 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 05:43:46 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 05:48:47 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:49:00 waterh [i=3ba24401@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-862d80b1795959fa] has joined #lisp 05:49:17 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:55:40 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e178026065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:55:40 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178026065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:59:36 lisp-newbie [n=mek@132.198.29.6] has joined #lisp 06:06:15 What vector/matrix libraries are good? 06:06:23 ie alive and well documented? 06:12:06 testsn [n=testsn@p4239-ipbf1008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:13:01 mogunus: I was just reading about vectors in clojure -- pretty neat. 06:13:02 http://clojure.org/reader 06:13:13 Just in case you're interested. 06:14:22 lisp-newbie: does it have dot product, cross product, etc built in? 06:14:36 You know, I'm not sure. 06:14:47 I remember writing 'em all in ocaml, easy one liners. 06:15:02 Don't know if Clojure has built in, give me a sec to look it up :o) 06:16:54 In fact it doesn't and it does at the same time. 06:17:11 Clojure can run the java API since it runs on the JVM. 06:17:31 So you could use the java dot product class without having to touch java. 06:17:41 -!- lisp-newbie1 [n=mek@c-76-118-78-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:19:00 Bed time for me, night all. 06:19:04 -!- lisp-newbie [n=mek@132.198.29.6] has left #lisp 06:20:53 -!- testsn [n=testsn@p4239-ipbf1008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:22:14 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:22:27 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 06:22:28 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:25:47 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:05 i must have underestimated the amount of coffee i drank 06:26:28 been playing with weblocks and I can wholeheartedly vouch for it. amazing piece of software. 06:27:23 fusss: I tried it about a year ago. 06:27:33 Can you nest editing objects now? 06:27:34 how did you like it? 06:27:47 I remember that was a stumbling block for me (wanted to build an arbitrary CRUD interface) 06:28:13 It was very impressive, but I didn't understand web stuff at all at that point. 06:28:24 yes you can 06:28:29 I would probably appreciate it a lot more now. 06:28:30 composite widgets nest just fine 06:28:33 Oh, sweet! 06:28:49 amazing insight both into lisp and web technologies 06:29:22 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:29:42 widgets are clos objects; if they have :reader slot options they will be read-only. if they have a writer or accessor, they will hava full two-way ajax calls that will update them the instant they change. 06:29:47 sexy time! 06:29:55 Without question. 06:30:02 I'll have to take another look at it. 06:30:22 graceful degradation; javascript disabled? falls back into class web-mode 06:31:11 and it pretty much installs via asdf-install: just say "yes, yes, yes" about 40 times everytime you're told about the dangers of missing GPG signatures 06:31:20 s/class/classic/ 06:31:46 It seems to be in clbuild as well. 06:32:01 http://sykosomatic.org/tutorial2.html Here's the second page so far. Is this a nice approach to tackling CLOS? Is there anything else I should cover right away? 06:38:52 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-105-4-172.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:40:28 sykopomp: there is a weird text that doesn't render well right after "ahhhhh" 06:40:28 Sanchom [n=sanchom@wikipedia/Sanchom] has joined #lisp 06:40:32 -!- Sanchom [n=sanchom@wikipedia/Sanchom] has left #lisp 06:40:43 fusss: it's shift-JIS I believe. 06:40:45 or UTF 06:41:36 not utf-8, gotta be some sorta rectangle script i don't grok 06:42:45 shift-jis should be it, then 06:42:53 it's just an emoticon :) 06:42:59 <_3b> firefox seems to think it is utf8 here 06:44:04 either way, the text reminds me of those texfile cracking tutorials from early 90s BBSes 06:44:11 <_3b> (probably since the html specifies utf8 :) 06:44:27 _3b: how you holdin' up? 06:44:32 fusss: is that a good thing? :P 06:44:50 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:44:56 <_3b> fusss: slept a bit too much yesterday i think 06:46:10 <_3b> fusss: planning to upload new code for my flash stuff soon, just need to fix some stuff i broke in function calling stuff 06:46:25 sykopomp: refreshing, sure, those cracking tutorials had adrenaline. "we're gonna fuck the government up, let's learn their Un*x OS: first command is 'ls', which is like DIR on PCDOS" 06:46:36 hahahahaha 06:46:46 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:46:57 -!- valiza1 [n=haroldo@r190-133-130-104.dialup.adsl.anteldata.net.uy] has left #lisp 06:47:07 ls: the ultimate tool of world domination 06:47:40 _3b: alright, i will be off duty with respect of fash. work overload currently. 06:49:00 fusss: old cracking tutorials, eh? I still have my "Complete Phrack Magazine" lying somewhere... 06:49:12 phrack is not old dude 06:49:23 still runs 06:49:47 fusss: This is from the time that they were said to close 06:50:01 I remember making a dump of all available issues back then 06:50:11 netcraft has been confirming that since 1988, much like lisp 06:50:26 fusss: I mean info was on their site 06:50:53 Anyway, reading how to make handguns or how to "clear obstacles" was fun :D 06:51:26 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 06:52:04 (not to mention stuff that in USA would result in DEA hot on you ;-) ) 06:52:07 alright. 06:52:15 read the prophile in the latest issue. piss your pants funny. 06:52:41 :-) 06:52:53 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:53:48 back at home, we didn't need to make anything. east german rifles were standard issue for any man over 9 years old :-P 06:55:46 LOL @ "Admin of: Most of South Korea/China ..." 07:01:21 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:01:50 As for weapons... I did enjoy chemistry for a reason... 07:02:44 hmmm, one thing i will say is that weblocks is kinda slow. let's see if things change with caching. 07:03:51 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:04:09 fusss: for what values of "slow"? Cause it would be interesting to compare against, let's say, standard Rails 07:06:54 as in "the webserver in my basement sure feels like it's in South Korea/China" 07:07:53 GrayMagiker [n=Twilight@75-161-91-94.albq.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:35 then that's _really_ slow 07:10:00 gonna migrate it to a vps and see if acts better 07:12:10 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:12:23 Mage__ [n=Mage@adsl-69-225-12-66.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:40 how advanced is Clozure on win32/x86? I have a feeling that SBCL won't like randomized address spaces too much... 07:16:25 -!- repnop [n=Mage@adsl-69-225-2-109.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:18:41 i have the alpha release somewhere. not easy for me to move to a new environment. i'm already used to sbcl error messages to the point i debug and fix things by intuition. 07:20:33 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:21:50 fusss: I'm just wondering how SBCL would react to the fully-relocatable image model introduced in NT6 07:24:27 Though I think for windows development I'll go with Corman. That's nicely priced environment if I ever seen one... 07:25:35 What makes sense for web authentication in lisp? 07:25:46 Hunchentoot/cl-who only, so far. 07:25:58 Though I could certainly add another component if that would make sense. 07:30:01 how secure do you want it to be? 07:30:25 I don't want the password sent in cleartext. 07:30:37 if you want basic http authentication with .htaccess, you should be able to set that up 07:30:55 ahhh, then you might need to get a certificate and do https 07:31:35 mogunus: Unless you do HTTPS, your options outside Intranet networks are quite limited 07:31:55 HTTPS is is then. Can I do that with just hunchentoot? 07:31:59 (I'm pretty sure there was a way to put GSSAPI authentication over HTTP, but that requires support) 07:32:11 you can probably get a javascript md5 encoder and do it on the client side, but .. 07:32:41 fusss: Better not 07:32:48 i know :-P 07:33:20 We already have DIGEST_AUTH. On the other side, there exist a special protocol for exchanging auth data over HTTP in secure manner, with JS client available 07:33:29 brill [n=brill@0x57386060.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:34:29 can you elaborate p_l? i'm pretty clueless when it comes to web authentication 07:34:50 fusss: There was some work on something called "Secure Password Protocol" or something similar 07:35:02 neerolyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 07:35:06 one of the implementations was for JS, to be executed on the browser 07:35:39 I'll have to search about it - I didn't found it useful for my needs. 07:36:28 ah, Secure Remote Password 07:36:58 http://srp.stanford.edu 07:37:00 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 07:37:37 there's a JS library implementing it mentioned on links page 07:38:31 Cool. Thanks. 07:39:36 good morning 07:39:52 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:41:08 mogunus: generate yourself a certificate and pass the certificate to the hunchentoot start-server with the :ssl-private-keyfile keyword argument 07:41:30 your ht should listen under https:// automagically 07:42:36 Oh, sweet. 07:42:44 Will that automatically prompt for a password...? 07:43:00 Or just encrypt the pipe? 07:46:47 maodun [n=stopgo@c-67-180-49-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:03 will take the users to your login form, over a secure wire. you read the form with POST and it's transmitted securely. you validate the user on your own (equalp (md5:sum-sequence ) (lookup-password ))) or some such 07:47:17 *mogunus* nods 07:47:33 got it. Thanks v. much. 07:47:45 I need to use some java libraries from lisp. Is jfli the way to go? 07:48:21 what i do is subscribe to the gmane mailing lists, and but i use a real mail client which downloads all messages and caches them locally. code examples galore! 07:50:35 fusss: clever. which mail client? 07:51:28 i use everything mozilla. Thunderbird in this case, which integrates well with my calendar. 07:53:36 also get ScrabBook add-on. it's like taking notes on web pages. you can annotate your hyperspec and library documentation to leave postit notes and examples for yourself 07:53:48 ScrapBook that is 07:53:49 Hah! Sweet. 07:53:56 I wonder, has anyone done a mail client in CL? 07:54:41 weren't you playing with mel-base last night? 07:54:42 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.80] has joined #lisp 07:54:49 Hmm, no. 07:54:56 That was probably someone else. 07:55:49 it's fairly featureful, but not a mail client. i'm currently using 5 lines of cl-mime to scape mail. change one line and you can remove attachments :-) 07:56:28 This looks pretty good. 07:56:47 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:01:00 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:01:32 mogunus: there is a CLIM-based mail client project hosted on common-lisp.net, it's called Stamp 08:01:33 -!- dakeyras_ [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:02:16 mvilleneuve: is it alive? 08:02:19 ahhhhhhhhhh, xen host still runs slackware 11 >:-/ 08:03:18 jewel [n=jewel@41.247.195.35] has joined #lisp 08:03:52 Hmm, apparently not. Last developeor mailing list ativity December of '06 08:03:52 it's too late a night to be upgrading kernel and glibc on a virtual server 08:03:52 nite 08:03:52 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 08:11:31 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.159.16] has joined #lisp 08:14:42 mulligan` [n=user@e178000043.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:15:27 -!- mulligan` is now known as mulligan 08:16:40 mogunus: not really alive, no... I do plan to work on it more at some point but I have no idea when I can do that :( 08:17:00 mulligan` [n=user@e178000043.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:17:46 hi. in Common Lisp, is it required that all the key symbols in a property list (as opposed to the values) actually be keyword symbols i.e. :foo 08:17:46 *yawn* good morning. 08:17:47 ? 08:17:50 hi tic 08:18:45 dumb CLOS question: can you write a method such as (defmethod foo (&optional ((var class) "foo-fail")) ...)? 08:18:47 any name seems to do, according to the spec. 08:18:52 dto, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/26_glo_p.htm#property_list 08:19:22 dto, I guess it's usually just easier to use keywords if you end up using it from another package. 08:19:39 well, here's the issue 08:19:46 -!- neerolyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:19:49 sykopomp, there's a hack for doing that, but otherwise you can only do eql specialization. 08:20:04 sykopomp, you want pattern matching, right? 08:20:23 -!- batiestuta [n=chatzill@125.34.197.233] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:20:24 in my custom object system, the method foo is stored in a plist under the key :foo , but someone told me that that would put all method names into one namespace 08:20:34 i.e. defeat the package system, w.r.t. my method names 08:20:34 tic: no, I want specialization on optional arguments, which I seem to recall isn't possible. 08:21:36 sykopomp, alright, the parens look like you want to ensure var is of type class and has the value "foo-fail". sorry, don't know there. 08:21:58 (getf '(a b c d) 'a) => B 08:22:13 dto, ah, right. that sounds reasonable. 08:22:47 dto, couldn't you mold CLOS into what you want, though? 08:23:14 tic: that's sort of what I'm trying to do, but CLOS is a bit difficult to work with when you're trying to write a prototype system on top of it. 08:23:22 I'm still not entirely sure how to do it. I just finished reading AMOP. 08:23:58 peterc [n=pc@134.7.95.68] has joined #lisp 08:24:44 tic: i have many reasons but what i really want is to be able to (format t "~A" huge-network-of-objects) and read them back from disk later... i designed the object system around simpler serialization, and also the game engine 08:24:53 tic: http://github.com/dto/clon 08:25:06 sykopomp, I guess that part of the design space might not be within the boundaries of the MOP nor CLOS. But then, it might you and me not fully understandin things. 08:25:19 dto, isn't clon the prototype based class thingy? 08:25:23 tic: yes. 08:25:29 sykopomp, meet dto. :) 08:25:34 hi sykopomp 08:25:36 tic: already did :P 08:25:40 aren't you already a watcher 08:25:41 yeah 08:25:42 Aha. 08:25:48 tic: have you seen my common lisp game? 08:25:56 tic: http://dto.mamalala.org/notebook/rlx.html 08:26:15 dto, looking now. 08:26:23 tic: I'm more into CLOS-style OOP (generic functions, multimethods, multiple inheritance). CLON is more like smalltalk or Io. 08:26:38 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:26:52 yeah. message-passing and forwarding 08:27:11 clon is quite imperfect 08:27:24 but it works. 08:27:28 check the videos :) 08:27:35 all those little things are grids of clon objects 08:27:36 nostoi [n=nostoi@122.Red-83-54-13.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:27:37 dto, I really like your web site, by the way! 08:27:43 tic: thank you. made with elisp :) 08:28:02 i recently cleaned up my site and removed broken links 08:28:05 i'm editing the rlx page right now 08:28:18 dto, I desperately need to make my site a lot nicer. It's currently a big mess. :| 08:29:33 do you use emacs? 08:29:50 No, I use ... tada, WordPress! :) / :(. 08:30:04 i make my website with an emacs package called org-mode. 08:30:27 Yeah, I saw that. 08:30:30 mega1 [n=mega@3e44b2e8.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:30:57 -!- GrayMagiker [n=Twilight@75-161-91-94.albq.qwest.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 08:31:06 http://sykosomatic.org I use.... hand-written html and CSS! :D 08:31:19 H4ns1 [n=hans@static9.muc.grin.com] has joined #lisp 08:31:23 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:31:25 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB95ED.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:31:27 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 08:31:36 ...all the cool kids have websites 08:31:51 moin 08:31:56 mogunus, some of us less cool do, too. 08:31:57 moin moin. 08:32:02 monks? 08:32:43 ok we have a mailing list now for rlx 08:32:44 :) 08:32:46 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB97B2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 08:32:51 dto: :) 08:33:13 H4ns: hey!! thanks 08:33:29 i'm going to have my people on #rlx subscribe 08:33:36 what do you think of my little project 08:33:36 -!- fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit ["Quit"] 08:34:36 dto: do you ask me? i don't play computer games much 08:37:17 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-148-117.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 08:37:38 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:39:09 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Success] 08:45:26 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:49:34 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:51:15 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:53:38 Good morning. 08:53:58 spiaggia: mornin' beach. 08:54:07 hi spiaggia. 08:55:14 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:56:05 Monday next week in Paris I'll give the last Lisp-talk of the year. 08:56:26 nice :) 08:57:10 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 08:57:12 hey spiaggia, I'm working on a tutorial. Can you look it over and send comments my way, before it's too late? :P 08:57:28 too late being -> 'I wrote 20 pages the wrong way D:' 08:58:11 sykopomp: I can do that, but not for the next 10 days or so. 08:58:36 spiaggia: oh, alright. 08:58:38 sykopomp: Or, remind me this week-end. I might have a few minutes then. 08:58:43 roger! 08:58:47 back to screenshotting.. 08:58:56 hello spiaggia 09:04:01 -!- maodun [n=stopgo@c-67-180-49-1.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 09:04:06 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:04:32 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:14 manuel_ [n=manuel@AStrasbourg-157-1-81-17.w90-56.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:07:50 Ragnaroek [i=54a67431@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-488b86f985bbf604] has joined #lisp 09:09:24 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:10:23 sykopomp: can't you automate that from within emacs? (I kid) 09:11:33 madnificent: come back to #emacs :) 09:11:38 testsan [n=testsan@p4239-ipbf1008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:11:39 i me3an, #rlx 09:11:50 you used to be on there 09:11:58 happy? 09:12:15 hmm? 09:12:28 btw i think you subscribed yourself twice 09:12:45 to the assembla thing 09:13:32 yeah, I got an extra invitation on the same email address. I think it's an assembla-hickup. I'll remove one of them soon :) 09:13:54 :) 09:16:52 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a67431@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-488b86f985bbf604] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 09:18:26 -!- peterc [n=pc@134.7.95.68] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:18:40 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 09:23:37 vtl [n=user@r10ni46.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 09:25:51 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:26:08 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:27:24 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:33:52 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:34:01 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:34:13 madnificent: http://sykosomatic.org/tutorial2.html Page 2 is done :) 09:34:27 main topic: CLOS and generic funcitons ;) 09:34:34 s/failure/functions/ 09:36:24 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 09:36:45 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 09:38:05 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:38:29 sykopomp: I'll read it in the evenening, or tomorrow, thanks sykopomp 09:39:24 madnificent: glhf 09:40:28 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:40:32 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:42:55 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:43:17 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:47:12 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@223.pool85-49-171.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 09:48:25 -!- _theHAM [n=hammy@perlmonk.org] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:50:03 <_3b> tcr: were you looking for me? 09:51:17 _3b: Yeah, I watched a talk about flex &c yesterday, and that stuff seems so cool! Iirc, you're working on some Lisp implementation for the Flash VM? 09:52:03 <_3b> tcr: yeah, hopefully will be sort of useable soon, if not actually useful :) 09:53:54 _3b: What resources did you use? 09:54:22 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:55 <_3b> 'resources' as in for figuring out how the flash vm works you mean? 09:55:14 yeah 09:55:27 <_3b> everything i could find :) 09:55:44 <_3b> adobe docs, haxe stuff, flex compiler/disassembler, etc 09:55:57 I thought the VM was open sourced? 09:56:39 <_3b> i think it is, not sure i looked at it too closely though 09:57:09 <_3b> i think fusss poked at it a bit when looking for similar info, i should probably look into it more at some point 09:57:56 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:58:05 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:59:22 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@122.Red-83-54-13.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:59:56 <_8david`> shiny, bash completion for clbuild. This could become a "how could live without it?" feature. 10:00:19 <_8david`> clbuild install 10:00:31 <_3b> clbuild doesn't work on msys/mingw, right? 10:01:17 <_8david`> it used to work on cygwin. Only laziness has prevented me from removing the cygwin cruft. It was a bad idea to begin with. 10:01:39 elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has joined #lisp 10:01:40 *_3b* misses out on all the fun installers :( 10:01:57 teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p5B17FBE4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:00 -!- teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17DE8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:02:22 <_8david`> Would make sense with a cygwin lisp, but using a shell script that manipulates different file names than the lisp it is meant to start just doesn't make a lot of sense. 10:02:56 _theHAM [n=hammy@199.5.193.8] has joined #lisp 10:02:58 <_3b> yeah, cygwin is annoying anyway though :) 10:03:40 <_3b> msys path translation can get annoying as well though :( 10:11:58 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 10:15:39 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:16:02 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:28 rfgpfeiffer [n=rfgpfeif@141.89.226.149] has joined #lisp 10:26:09 <_3b> wish i had flash 10 on all my target platforms, would be nice to be able to use the new typed arrays :( 10:26:34 <_3b> (not that i guess it matters much since i don't type anything else) 10:27:13 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:28:26 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:34:13 defn_ [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-9e799cdca78d987f] has joined #lisp 10:35:04 -!- defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-3d130b00de7ede6f] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:36:02 yakov [n=yasha@213.170.102.170] has joined #lisp 10:36:12 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:36:35 -!- yakov [n=yasha@213.170.102.170] has left #lisp 10:38:33 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:48:32 tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:48:37 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:48:47 -!- tic_ is now known as tic 10:52:36 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:53:29 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:29 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:02:53 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:05:02 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.247.195.35] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:05:15 me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 11:08:32 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:08:46 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 11:11:07 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-178-234.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:11:07 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 11:11:11 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:12:35 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:15:12 kzar annotated #71997 with "Feedback on http://sykosomatic.org/tutorial.html" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71997#2 11:16:14 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:20:26 -!- rfgpfeiffer [n=rfgpfeif@141.89.226.149] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:20:45 -!- testsan [n=testsan@p4239-ipbf1008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:22:09 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 11:35:23 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 11:35:47 is it possible to define a SERIES of places? 11:39:04 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 11:39:44 since places aren't first-class things i'm not sure how that would work... 11:40:17 -!- teilzeitstudent_ [n=teilzeit@p5B17FBE4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:44:45 if you can't have a list of something it doesn't seem fair to ask for a series of it :) 11:44:53 I was confused by some :alter-fn thing that gets into the macroexpansion of series-optimized functions 11:45:26 rvirding [n=chatzill@192.165.65.245] has joined #lisp 11:46:27 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:28 andrea1 [n=andreas@p579F88E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:59 -!- andreas [n=andreas@p579F88F7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:49:07 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.80] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:50:01 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.80] has joined #lisp 11:50:09 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483CC46.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:43 oh well, given the expansion, it can probably elide the intermediate functions 11:52:04 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X74f5.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:52:16 hooray for the SSC 11:55:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 11:58:53 slime is client right.. swank is server? 11:59:03 i need sanity check 11:59:17 yes 12:00:20 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.80] has left #lisp 12:00:45 thank you 12:06:14 ths [n=ths@p549AF044.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:41 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 12:06:41 -!- _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 12:07:18 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:07:33 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:49 elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has joined #lisp 12:10:47 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:14:30 S10you can have a sequence of closures on places. 12:14:41 S11001001: you can have a sequence of closures on places. 12:14:53 matimago: yes, that is what I have implemented 12:14:58 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 12:14:58 ok. 12:20:04 -!- me-so-stupid [n=hooyambo@77.236.84.166] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 12:23:28 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 12:24:30 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 12:31:14 moesenle [n=moesenle@atradig124.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:36:51 -!- esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 12:40:58 -!- defn_ [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-9e799cdca78d987f] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:41:15 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:41:20 afternoon 12:41:37 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-62-216-221-162.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 12:44:25 What's the way of viewing which parts of your code are slowing things down again? 12:44:35 profiling? 12:44:53 <_8david`> nikodemus: I've put up a modified texinfo-docstrings with your changes at http://repo.or.cz/w/texinfo-docstrings.git Hope that's ok. 12:45:22 antifuchs: Oh yea, that's it. H4ns showed me once before and there was a way of running your function but with extra output which showed where most of the time was spent 12:45:26 -!- vtl [n=user@r10ni46.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:45:43 _8david`: based on the one i sent you? that's cool 12:46:09 ah wait I found it 12:46:21 <_8david`> yeah. Meaning that "texinfo-docstrings" can only generate html currently, not texinfo :-), but it's a big "work in progress" project anyway. 12:46:29 kzar: if you're using sbcl, it's all in the manual 12:46:37 probably is for most other environments as well 12:46:38 kzar: in sbcl, it's SB-PROFILE or SB-SPROF (the latter is a statistical profiler, which can show some things that sb-profile can't) 12:46:53 statistical profiler gives more detail, ordinary one is somewhat easier to use 12:46:59 rsynnott: I found my example from last time so I dodged the manual :D 12:47:37 a-s [n=user@89.38.174.194] has joined #lisp 12:48:10 vtl [n=user@r10ni46.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 12:49:00 _8david`: i think last i thought about it i was gravitating towards calling it sb-doc :) 12:51:07 <_8david`> that might collide a little with my idea of a modular and portable family of little libraries :-) 12:51:13 <_8david`> Perhaps it would be best to think of the SBCL docstrings.lisp and the repo.or.cz repository just as related projects that share code freely by means of copy&paste. 12:51:20 defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-5cbaf421ae44c7ab] has joined #lisp 12:51:40 <_8david`> I wouldn't want to have created another asdf-install situation where two unrelated projects share a name. 12:52:19 -!- cooldude127 [n=user@r55h118.res.gatech.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:55:02 cracki [n=cracki@46-181.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:55:04 right. what i'm after is an sbcl contrib that sbcl can use for its own documentation 12:55:26 this does not preclude it being portable and available elsewhere, of course 12:55:30 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 12:55:42 phao [n=phao@20158153090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 12:56:00 code first, toplevel organization later :) 12:56:44 tsk 12:56:53 -!- defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-5cbaf421ae44c7ab] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:59:14 does "code first, decide which project it belongs in later" sound better? 13:00:33 -!- phao [n=phao@20158153090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Client Quit] 13:00:42 phao [n=phao@20158153090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 13:02:16 defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-dc4d99fbf0f23f96] has joined #lisp 13:03:47 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:04:07 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:05:10 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a16-090.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:05:40 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:07:55 trittweil [n=trittwei@macbroy20.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:10:08 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:11:32 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:12:20 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:36 sykopomp: I have a tablet-pc laying around here. If you'd have any interest in it, I'd like to try to add some written text to your images (with respect to kzar's comments) 13:15:34 sykopomp: it might look absolutely horrible, but maybe it just adds to the comfy feeling you're aiming for 13:18:49 Hmm so looking at it the greediest part of my code is the "roulette wheel spinning" to decide which chromosomes are selected for crossover, it's not taking much time itself but the comparisons it does are taking the most time. 13:19:27 heh, from the recent slime talk slides: "Alternatives to SLIME: Symbolics Lisp machine, Cusp, Limp) 13:19:37 I don't think the first is terribly practical :) 13:19:49 -!- wasabi________ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:19:57 well, neither is Limp, but hey. ;) 13:20:18 well, I didn't like to say 13:20:25 (and Cusp is marginal :P) 13:20:33 Cusp uses Swank, so it's good. 13:20:45 what, limp doesn't? 13:20:51 what does limp actually DO, then? 13:21:15 I wrote the code to make a list of probabilities and then looped through them 2 at a time checking if the random number between 0 and 1 fits between the two probabilities. If so it returns that chromosome 13:21:22 rsynnott, copy-and-paste 13:21:27 ah 13:21:40 I want to make it better, but I don't have the time nor energy at the moment ./ 13:21:43 -!- cracki [n=cracki@46-181.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:22:02 it's a nice set of slides, though; the third section has lots of slime tricks which aren't really nmentioned in the manual 13:22:08 (I've started with getting ECL working in Vim.) 13:22:55 wasabi________ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:23:12 Yeah I never bothered updating the manual, I thought it was dead. (it is not) 13:24:24 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181130148.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:27:25 <_3b> beach, spiaggia: zeroth, ninth and twelfth are misspelled in SICL 13:27:26 kzar: so you're O(N*M) N=probabilities, N=chromosomes 13:27:41 M, even :) 13:28:42 nikodemus: I don't understand 13:29:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Big_O_notation 13:29:22 nikodemus: I just fixed one bug, I was checking that the ball was < than before and > than after position.. I changed that to just > then after position 13:29:39 it's now taking 86% not 92% :D 13:29:48 nikodemus: ok I'll read that now 13:30:08 if the complexity (which is what the O-notation refers to) is not the problem, and you are comparing floats, have you declared the types? also, storing the probabilities in a specialized vector is going to be more efficient than keeping them in a list 13:31:08 (find x list) is O(N), where N is the length of the list -- that is, the operation takes time proportional to the size of the list 13:31:30 nikodemus: Well there are going to be a lot of comparisons I suppose.. it's looping around and around thousands of times 13:31:40 (gethash x table) is O(1) -- the operation takes constant time 13:31:51 nikodemus: I haven't declared types, thought you didn't need to in lisp 13:32:02 you don't *have to*, but you can 13:32:14 and the compiler can do a better job if you do declare 13:32:49 nikodemus: OK, I'll go read up on that then :D thanks for the pointer 13:35:44 interesting (or (< blah foo) (eql blah foo)) seems to be quicker than (<= blah foo) ?! 13:39:59 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:40:07 kzar: I doubt that 13:41:10 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:41:14 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:41:22 Hello. 13:42:52 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 13:45:35 Ragnaroek [i=8f5d3597@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5de0dc7f5e67b14e] has joined #lisp 13:46:26 -!- Ragnaroek [i=8f5d3597@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5de0dc7f5e67b14e] has quit [Client Quit] 13:46:32 -!- phao [n=phao@20158153090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:47:06 kzar: most of the time don't bother, since your program doesn't spend most time in most code 13:48:03 esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:48:11 kgn: what level of optimisation, and such? 13:48:29 for drawing from discrete probability distributions, check out the "alias" and "alias-rejection" methods 13:48:42 finite discrete probability distributions, that is 13:49:16 (I've found that performance characteristics of things like that can vary radically between a high debug and high speed setting) 13:49:43 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.250.77] has joined #lisp 13:50:14 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.250.77] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:24 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:51:34 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 13:54:41 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:54:50 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:55:45 oh: http://tokyocabinet.sourceforge.net/tyrantdoc/ 13:55:55 that could make an interesting backend for elephant 13:56:27 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:54 phao [n=phao@20158153090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 13:58:59 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:59:56 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.250.77] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:00:11 Is there a way I can specify the types inside a loop like this: (loop for (position next-pos) on roulette-wheel .... ) directly? 14:01:27 of-type 14:02:00 (loop for (pos next-pos) of-type (fixnum fixnum) on ...) 14:02:01 -!- phao [n=phao@20158153090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Client Quit] 14:02:57 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 14:03:00 trittweil: Cheers 14:04:04 benny` [n=benny@i577A2292.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:04:41 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:04:53 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 14:06:55 phao [n=phao@20158153090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 14:07:29 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:08:12 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-82-81-30-92.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:09:42 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:58 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1A45.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:11:44 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:58 OK declaring those two as floats sped things up shitloads 14:12:42 heh 14:12:46 (So much a bug that happened rarely and I hand't got around to fixing happened constantly because it was going so much faster and I had to go fix that before I could profile properly) 14:14:13 92% to 90% with a logic fix, to 35% declaring them as floats 14:16:35 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 14:19:07 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:20:39 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 14:21:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:25:10 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 14:25:19 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:25:56 jajcloz [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:13 I love multiple inheritance 14:30:13 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:30:33 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:30:35 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.133.80] has joined #lisp 14:33:47 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4137.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:34:36 S11001001: I love MI in CLOS! In C++ it's a PITA. 14:34:58 matimago: What about it is a PITA exactly? 14:35:19 i love that java professors will teach M-I then promptly tell the students to never use it. 14:35:20 modifying matimago's line: S11001001: I love MI in CLOS! C++ is a PITA. 14:35:30 it's actually usable in c-l. 14:35:32 Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-54458.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:36:37 bougyman: Hm I always thought Java did have MI only for interfaces 14:36:41 -!- kuwabara [n=Kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:37:10 kuwabara [n=Kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.fr] has joined #lisp 14:37:33 daniel: Eg. with intrusive smart ptr, you need to have a reference to the base class to be able to put it in a smart ptr. If you have only a reference to the mixin, you cannot put it into a smart ptr, because it won't know the offset. 14:37:55 daniel: that's what they're reduced to, to use it only for interfaces. 14:39:25 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:40:04 matimago: A pointer that holds a reference to the partial object only usually is not the "owner", hence I wouldn't put it in a smart-pointer anyways. But well, technically you're right that there is an issue there, but I wouldn't declare it as a overall failure.... 14:41:26 bougyman: erm, Java doesn't support multiple inheritance 14:41:51 it also has interfaces, which aren't the same thing, but which are used rather heavily in Java 14:41:51 rsynnott: See my and matimago's response. 14:41:54 ah 14:42:18 willb [n=wibenton@wireless34.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:42:36 MI for interfaces is, in terms of saving code, quite useless. 14:43:41 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:42 a worrying amount of java's design seems to be based on the premise that the average user is going to be a bit stupid 14:44:19 <_3b> rsynnott: it is less worrying if you are part of the target audience, where that assumption is valid :p 14:44:29 That premise is very optmistic, though. 14:45:17 'oh, that looks like some people might find it tricky; get rid of it' is a not the best way to design a language 14:45:24 but that's exactly what they seem to have done 14:45:58 <_3b> rsynnott: there is no 'best' though 14:46:05 (though at least the JVM is semi-okay; it's entirely possible that java the language will eventually be replaced with something else 14:46:23 rsynnott: Assuming that many users of the language are stupid is a good thing to do - the way they're dealing with it is very cheap, though. 14:46:27 (it is apparently going to be possible for compilers do do tail call optimisation next release!) 14:46:59 rsynnott: See .NET... 14:47:14 There are Lisp-"compilers" for it, afaik 14:47:43 there's a CL compiler for the JVM 14:47:45 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:47:57 and also a weird lispy thing (clojure) 14:48:09 clojure, heh 14:48:24 Is it possible to use Java's library from that CL compiler, too? 14:48:39 (.NET is probably less desirable in general than JVM; Mono is still rather slow) 14:48:42 daniel: yep 14:48:49 (it's called ABCL) 14:48:53 it's quite nice in many ways 14:48:59 though CLOS stuff is terribly slow 14:49:04 Hi people. I am trying to populate a list with some elements. For instance: (dotimes (i 5) (let ((a)) (append a (list i)))) but it's wrong. Could you hint me please? 14:49:23 (the author warns about this on the project page, which is nice of him) 14:49:23 daniel: well, I would admit that there's a way to use C++ to make it workable. But when you add some "style" and "restrictions" for specific projets, you find yourself often cornered. Eg. if you try to avoid rtti and dynamic_cast, etc. If you choosed to use C++ for a project I would use Lpp instead of stl, and greenspun a garbage collector and some other stuff, (basically implementing libobjc in C++). But most C++ programmers 14:49:23 wouldn't like the result... 14:49:41 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 14:49:46 Beket: you are not modifying anything in this loop. 14:49:50 matimago: there are mature garbage collectors for C++ 14:50:13 rsynnott: I learned C++ a long time ago, and I switched to CL ten years ago ;-) 14:50:21 Beket: APPEND is a function, not a procedure. 14:50:25 <_3b> Beket: you are also not returning anything from dotimes 14:50:36 -!- waterh [i=3ba24401@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-862d80b1795959fa] has quit ["mibbit.com: later"] 14:50:38 (HP has one; it is apparently rather good, better than Apple's objc one) 14:50:39 matimago: A simple, virtual delete_me() method in a shared (virtual) base class would be enough, though. :) 14:51:04 rsynnott: Apple's GC works for C++ too? 14:51:08 matimago: thanks, I've missed that. 14:51:36 matimago: I'd love to be able to switch to CL, by the way, but I usually do not create applications without rich GUIs and that's simply near impossible with Lisp :) 14:51:39 matimago: I THINK that the new one (objc2.0) will handle C++ stuff if you're working with what they call objc++ 14:52:04 Beket: then, mind that APPEND is O(n). The idiomatic way to build lists in lisp, is to do it backward from the end to the front. (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil))) 14:52:05 though I haven't tested this 14:52:07 I have a working concept of how making Qt available in Lisp could be done, but I don't have the time to pull it off 14:52:23 (actually, I've only even played with objc2.0's GC; all my stuff is still objc1 14:52:31 Beket: then you can always reverse the result if it's not in the right order. 14:52:41 daniel: people have done Qt bindings before, I think 14:52:46 though I'm not sure what state they're in 14:52:52 rsynnott: Yes, but they're incomplete and not maintained. 14:52:52 there's also a GTK++ one 14:53:04 and a horribly-out-of-date wxWidgets one 14:53:13 (which I'm currently attempting to update :) ) 14:53:28 Uh, please don't put effort into something as horrible as wx :) 14:53:33 heh 14:53:35 Beket: you might use the occasion to learn LOOP: (loop :for i :from 0 :below 5 :collect i) 14:53:37 clhs loop 14:53:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_loop.htm 14:53:41 I'd like to have a cross-platform GUI 14:53:49 and Qt doesn't suit me because of the license 14:53:50 rsynnott: Yeah, go Qt 14:53:52 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-220.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:53:56 Ah... too bad. 14:54:11 -!- defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-dc4d99fbf0f23f96] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:54:22 actually getting wxWidgets working from CL is easy enough; the challenge is wrapping it so it isn't absolutely horrible to use 14:54:29 Well I'm doing either GPL or commercial stuff, because I can't be arsed too much with nitpicking on licenses. 14:54:45 rsynnott: How are you doing it, in a nutshell? 14:54:57 of course, if you can constrain yourself to macos, ccl has great objc bindings 14:55:27 daniel: there's a library called wxc which provides a C api for wxWidgets (which is c++ itself) 14:55:51 the old wx cl bindings used an old fork of this, which doesn't work with modern wxWidgets, and doesn't do unicode 14:56:04 however wxHaskell has an up-to-date one with a different interface 14:56:32 rsynnott: when are you going to publish your repo? 14:56:32 so I'm really just taking theirs, generating bindings with SWIG's CFFI mode, and trying to wrap the horrible mess that results :) 14:56:41 nikodemus: when it's half-way usable 14:56:41 Is wcx manually maintained? 14:56:53 daniel: basically, I think 14:57:14 (it seems that the original one may have been generated by something or other) 14:57:17 rsynnott: i didn't say "when are you going to make a release?" :) 14:57:19 The Qt developers have written a usable C++ parser to automatically create their Java bindings (Qt Jambi) 14:57:29 HET2 [n=diman@e195-052.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:57:30 nikodemus: yep, I must put SOMETHING up, anyway 14:57:37 -!- HET2 [n=diman@e195-052.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:57:37 *nikodemus* is for public repos early in the process 14:57:41 That parser is available as open source, but it's difficult to find on the net. Based on something like that, this could be automated. 14:57:47 when I get a chance, basically; I haven't had time to work on it for the last week; too busy with work 14:57:59 fairy nuff 14:58:22 HET2 [n=diman@e195-052.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has joined #lisp 14:58:55 (also, I'd like to have it workable on the three big platforms; at the moment it only actually works properly on MacOS :) 14:59:14 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 14:59:20 (though the problem is a minor unicode thing; I just haven't had a chance to fix it) 14:59:27 matimago: thanks for all the snippets. I'll study them. 15:01:02 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 15:01:57 daniel: swig also has an allegedly usable C++ parser which can generate C bindings plus CFFI or whatever 15:02:37 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@AStrasbourg-157-1-81-17.w90-56.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:02:55 =I kinda asked this yesterday, but I don't think anyone at the time knew maybe what I was asking or just was busy. I was curious, though, is there a way with Common Lisp (or maybe another type of lisp) that supports parallel computing in a cluster environment? Something like MPI for Lisp. 15:03:12 defn [n=deph@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-fe2eded64af9fe28] has joined #lisp 15:03:23 rsynnott: That's basically what I am longing for... just in a good state :) 15:04:58 it would be nice, certainly 15:05:04 but it seems to be a bit of a holy grail 15:05:11 I've seen LOTS of things claim to do it 15:06:18 As I said, that parser used for Qt Jambi has already proofed usability... at least on the Qt code-base, which follows relatively strict rules anyways 15:06:36 I could imagine it still has some issues with boost ;-D 15:08:16 -!- defn [n=deph@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-fe2eded64af9fe28] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:08:20 defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-261eccc082299b38] has joined #lisp 15:11:02 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:13 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@192.165.65.245] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 15:13:32 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 15:18:59 elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has joined #lisp 15:19:25 -!- Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-54458.home.otenet.gr] has quit [] 15:23:21 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:24:25 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:40 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:25:33 TDT: AFAIK, the only usable solution today would be Sciener CL. Recently their prices became much more accessible (than before). 15:25:57 I don't know if they support clusters though. 15:28:21 <_3b> do they do something more than other multithreaded lisps like SBCL? 15:30:37 <_3b> from looking at the docs, it seems similar 15:33:01 vasa [n=vasa@mm-132-84-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 15:33:01 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-220.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 15:35:04 matimago: Yeah, it's free for non-commercial use, which is nice..this was going to be for a research project 15:35:49 _3b: it's very good at handling large amounts of memory, apparently 15:36:25 matimago: Thanks for the link to that, I'm going to read more about this. was thinking a cluster, but maybe just a higher end computer (e.g. 4-core system) would be helpful. 15:36:52 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-220.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:38:42 TDT: for clusters, there was an ad-hoc package written for clisp (but easily portable to trivial-sockets) posted on cll a few years ago. It allowed to run an expression easily on a remote host and getting back the results. 15:39:04 doesn't allegro have some sort of rpc thing,as well? 15:39:19 (cmucl also has primitive rpc, I think) 15:39:58 <_3b> gcl appears to have had an MPI version at one point 15:40:27 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:40:33 and CMUCL has always had wire (i think that's what it's called) 15:40:48 And of course, if you can parallelize coarsely enough, you can just fork processes on a normal cluster kernel. 15:44:28 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:44:32 joshg [n=josh@S01060030bd077f55.va.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:45:50 if you're using cmucl, you will need one cmucl process per core 15:46:36 newbie with question here 15:46:49 oldbie with answer here. 15:47:11 I'm trying to define a 2d array, but I seem to be getting different results based on whether I use defvar or defparameter 15:47:28 joshg: defvar doesn't modify the variable if it exists already. 15:47:31 clhs defvar 15:47:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpar.htm 15:47:39 defparameter = defvar + setf 15:47:43 oh, bah, duh 15:48:00 I should've known that, thanks 15:48:14 joshg: you would use defvar for parameters that could be set before loading your program, and defparameter for variables that should be reinitialized when you reload it. 15:48:30 Remember: defvar is for parameters, defparameter for variables. 15:48:38 ;-) 15:49:04 I was actually choosing defvar because I wanted it to be able to persist later on when I make code edits, but I completely forgot that the same thing would happen in the repl 15:49:27 Good choice, but of course. In the repl you can use setf, once you've defvar'd them. 15:49:32 yay for silly newbie mistakes 15:49:35 right 15:49:59 thanks 15:50:01 I think the incantation is C-M-x to have slime reevaluate defvars as though they were defparameters. 15:50:11 and then there's defconstant, a strange creature :) 15:52:51 pkhuong: thanks, that'd be useful 15:54:18 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 15:54:30 -!- trittweil [n=trittwei@macbroy20.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["leaving"] 15:55:54 milanj [n=milan@93.86.53.242] has joined #lisp 15:56:10 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-217-250.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 15:57:16 I may or may not be paying attention, please act accordingly. 15:57:53 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:00 matimago: "defvar is for parameters, defparameter for variables" haha 15:58:15 nullwork [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:36 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 16:08:28 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 16:09:04 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:09:20 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 16:10:21 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 16:12:15 matimago: defvar is for variables changed by the program, defparameter for variables changed by the programmer 16:12:29 i meant locklace 16:13:10 H4ns: you have to consider them with a re-load. 16:13:23 matimago: i meant locklace. 16:13:44 H4ns: he quoted what I said. 16:14:49 (defpackage "P" (:export "V" "P")) (defvar p:v 1) (load "p.lisp") (list p:v p:p) with p.lisp: (in-package "P") (defparameter p 2) (defvar v 2) 16:15:11 or even: (defpackage "P" (:export "V" "P")) (defvar p:v 1) (defvar p:p 1) (load "p.lisp") (list p:v p:p) with p.lisp: (in-package "P") (defparameter p 2) (defvar v 2) 16:15:36 s/defvar p:p 1/defparameter p:p 1/ 16:16:50 You will see that this defparameter is useless (since loading p.lisp will override it). On the other hand, it's the value of p:v I defvar'ed (1) which is kept despite the reload. Hence my conclusion. Of course, you will still keep in defvar databases that shouldn't be reset by LOAD. 16:17:45 eXcmp7e [i=eXcmp7e@77.222.20.169] has joined #lisp 16:18:44 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:19:50 -!- eXcmp7e [i=eXcmp7e@77.222.20.169] has left #lisp 16:20:43 <_theHAM> I'm using max to compare items from two lists, as the lists diminish max fails with nil (naturally) - is there a common idiom for transforming nil to 0 (if the expression is nil, that is)? 16:21:20 (or expression 0) 16:21:50 <_theHAM> heh, right. thanks 16:22:52 schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 16:32:33 -!- H4ns [n=hans@static9.muc.grin.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:34:04 oudeis [n=oudeis@89.1.19.119.dynamic.barak-online.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:02 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:42:54 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:46 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:50:39 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@12.233.20.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:54:18 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:37 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89.1.19.119.dynamic.barak-online.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:55:39 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:58:03 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go home"] 17:05:00 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:06:53 shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has joined #lisp 17:07:30 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has quit [] 17:11:07 -!- rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["leaving"] 17:11:09 -!- schoppenhauer [n=mdd63bi@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:11:30 rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:12:55 -!- a-s [n=user@89.38.174.194] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:09 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 17:15:04 rfgpfeiffer [n=rfgpfeif@e178221067.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:15:33 disumu [n=disumu@p57A249B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:05 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-132-84-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 17:21:45 replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-144-245.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:27:38 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [] 17:27:45 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:29:04 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:19 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:30:30 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181130148.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:48 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:32:26 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e44b2e8.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:32:31 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A249B3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:32:59 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 17:39:13 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:36 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 17:40:36 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 17:41:24 -!- sepisultrum [n=user@ks35219.kimsufi.com] has left #lisp 17:42:14 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:44:30 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:13 fusss [n=kumi@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:20 afternoon! 17:49:03 hello fuss 17:49:11 considering what it does, does this demo seem slow to anyone else? 17:49:18 http://weblocks.viridian-project.de/weblocks-demo 17:49:44 weblocks is amazing, really, just the speed seems a little sluggish 17:50:20 fusss: very slow, yes 17:50:50 has anyone tried ucw, or have a live demo? 17:51:00 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 17:51:00 Zephtar [n=srusek@d62-185.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 17:51:03 fusss: though that may not be weblocks' fault 17:51:04 v 17:51:10 quite unlikely to be, actually 17:52:16 hunchentoot can churn out static pages just fine. it can also generate report with cl-who and delivery at acceptable speed 17:52:36 yep, html generation is generally fairly cheap 17:52:40 fusss: that demo is running off Leslie's home connection IIRC 17:52:44 expensive thing is very likely to be the database 17:52:51 ah, well, that's why it's slow then 17:53:20 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:00 S11: my server is in my basement. it's even sluggish when i fire up lynx on the same box. hmmm 17:54:44 fusss: home-hosted servers aren't much use for real websites 17:55:00 I'm building a commercial Weblocks site at http://www.hfsbo.com/ if you would like to check that out 17:55:10 oh, your weblocks is slow as well? (fusss) 17:55:25 I just pushed r350 an hour ago so 500s are likely 17:55:27 rsynnott: yeah 17:55:44 it, incidentally, is also currently running on a home connect, but a relatively good one afaict 17:56:04 S11001001: "SELLER'S" there is an apostrophe where no apostrophe should be ;) 17:56:18 that is intentional, comes from the designer 17:56:24 tsk 17:56:32 see the URL for what it was originally 17:56:33 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:56:36 that was a bloody fast site mate! 17:56:38 cheers! 17:56:52 what are you using for database? 17:56:55 I don't know why he dropped "Area" but not question 17:57:01 Postgre 17:57:20 S11001001: through cl-postgres/postmodern, or something fancier? 17:57:24 have you tried an object store? elephant, rucksack, etc? 17:57:27 clsql 17:57:31 man 17:57:32 ah 17:57:35 brb, phone 17:57:48 S11001001: using the cl-postgres or native backend? 17:57:52 sdsds [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:57:57 *rsynnott* is using elephant with postmodern backend 17:57:59 native 17:58:04 ah, right 17:58:23 -!- sdsds is now known as dto_ 17:58:35 required bug hunting in clsql as well http://lists.b9.com/pipermail/clsql/2008-December/thread.html 18:00:57 -!- defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-261eccc082299b38] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:01:14 defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-41abba92b3ec4be9] has joined #lisp 18:01:22 also it is run behind a somewhat idiosyncratic Apache reverse proxy 18:02:19 configuration 18:02:56 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:47 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:05:05 -!- fusss [n=kumi@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:06:38 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 18:08:55 S11001001: is it handling many users? 18:09:06 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 18:12:13 -!- phao [n=phao@20158153090.user.veloxzone.com.br] has left #lisp 18:12:27 -!- rfgpfeiffer [n=rfgpfeif@e178221067.adsl.alicedsl.de] has left #lisp 18:12:28 mait [n=user@genyv.rot.sgsnet.se] has joined #lisp 18:12:45 -!- vtl [n=user@r10ni46.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:13:04 Hello! How to convert a bit vector to an integer in CL? 18:13:31 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:13:53 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-182.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:13:54 mait: explicitly. If you're only working with small bit vectors, it might be simpler to use bitwise operations on fixnums instead. 18:14:48 Oh, thanks! I'll look those up. 18:15:16 -!- defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-41abba92b3ec4be9] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:15:19 defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-6841622c29ef3957] has joined #lisp 18:17:38 sykopomp: looks good. Perhaps it would be whise to use a different font (typewriter?) for forms (or keywords), On that last note: ":reader and/or :writer. :reader will " might confuse people 18:18:17 fusss [n=kumi@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:47 sykopomp: generally good though. much less enthusiastic, but certainly a lever of enthusiasm that can be kepth throughout the tutorial. IMHO it is not too unstrict, nor too strict. 18:18:58 -!- dtulig [n=dtulig@cpe-72-179-46-14.austin.res.rr.com] has quit [] 18:19:03 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:19:14 -!- replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-144-245.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19:18 sykopomp: a sidenote on the slot-name of a class could be handy (something like: 'name' doesn't matter for now 18:19:23 sykopomp: keep up the good work! 18:19:30 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 18:23:38 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:28:37 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181130148.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:30:45 disumu [n=disumu@p57A27D1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:32:12 tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has joined #lisp 18:33:30 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-94e5e7d8488958fc] has joined #lisp 18:34:31 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:08 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:37:51 -!- brill [n=brill@0x57386060.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:42:25 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:42:32 -!- ksergio [n=sgarcia@mail.nuecho.com] has left #lisp 18:44:01 -!- HET2 [n=diman@e195-052.eduroam.tuwien.ac.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:47:31 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:48:45 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc8o3.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 18:49:14 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-058-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:44 ksergio [n=sgarcia@mail.nuecho.com] has joined #lisp 18:51:03 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-058-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:51:15 elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has joined #lisp 18:51:24 schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-058-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:50 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:01:09 umis_ [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:59 -!- schaueho [n=schauer@dslb-088-066-058-126.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Bye bye"] 19:04:50 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 19:05:26 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 19:09:13 kruth [n=chatzill@kruth.org] has joined #lisp 19:11:42 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 19:13:20 mads- [n=mads@pdpc/supporter/active/mads-] has joined #lisp 19:13:24 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.15.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:15:33 -!- dto_ [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:17:43 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:20:19 -!- highlev [i=frid@server1.bshellz.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:22:36 Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-54458.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 19:22:43 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:23:24 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181130148.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:29:03 -!- mads- [n=mads@pdpc/supporter/active/mads-] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:30:53 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:31:01 roger_w [n=SoupNazi@69.34.16.39] has joined #lisp 19:33:00 Could you please provide me an example of (listp ...) returning F? 19:33:12 (listp 'fnord) 19:33:20 clhs listp 19:33:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_listp.htm 19:33:41 Thanks Riastradh 19:34:25 jkantz [n=jkantz@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:34:29 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:34:48 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:51 Is there some kind of a map object in CL? 19:37:57 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:38:44 drdo: like hash tables, alists or plists? 19:40:09 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 19:40:24 what are plists? 19:41:34 lists with an even number of elements 19:41:46 the even elements are the keys, the odd elements are the values 19:41:54 oh 19:42:00 mulander [n=user@nat-4.interq.pl] has joined #lisp 19:42:03 hash tables? alist? plist? .... 19:42:13 and alists are lists of conses if i am now mistaken 19:42:17 *not 19:43:06 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF044.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:43:44 ejs1 [n=eugen@shiko2.soborka.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:23 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:03 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:45:42 Is it possible to iterate over a hashtable? 19:45:53 Yes. 19:45:55 foudn it 19:45:57 *found 19:45:57 minion: tell drdo about that-dead-sexy-book 19:45:58 drdo: direct your attention towards that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 19:47:09 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:48:52 Good evening. 19:50:34 Lots more people spontaneously came into my office today to tell me what a good Lisp talk I gave. I consider that a good way to end the fiscal year. 19:50:36 drdo: with impressively horrible syntax :) 19:50:42 beach: cool 19:50:44 what was it on? 19:50:51 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:52 rsynnott: Lisp :) 19:51:02 well, which aspect of? :) 19:51:40 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4137.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:52:10 rsynnott: The weekly seminar schedule is pretty sparse, so since most of my colleagues either learned lisp 30 years ago (the old ones) or not at all (the young ones), I would give a series of seminars on modern Lisp. 19:52:15 -!- fusss [n=kumi@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ircII EPIC4-2.6 -- Are we there yet?"] 19:53:30 rsynnott: All of my Lisp talks (including lectures to undergraduates) are done interactively now (for the past 3 years or so) 19:53:33 ah, cool 19:54:08 rsynnott: Which means I don't have to prepare very much (no slides). I just walk in and type things to the REPL. 19:54:51 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4137.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 19:55:07 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@shiko2.soborka.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:55:17 beach: How do you get people not to scream "parenthesis!" and run? 19:55:36 rsynnott: This style has many advantages: people are more reactive; I look more impressive; I can change my talk in real time; I can do very long parenthetical remarks; etc. 19:55:50 heh 19:55:51 parenthetical, heh 19:56:07 embarassing if the computer crashes, though :) 19:56:36 drdo: er, these are my colleagues, so either they think like that and they do not show up, or else they would be to embarressed to even think about making remarks like that. 19:56:58 rsynnott: hasn't happened in 5 or 6 years. 19:57:07 or at least the 2nd guy will be :P 19:57:45 get some xkcd slides at least :) 19:57:57 *rsynnott* used to have a lecturer who ran his own personal version of prolog (which was macos9 only) on the macosX classic mode on a projector during lectures 19:58:05 on average, it blew up twice per lecture 19:58:06 :) 19:58:24 it blew up projectors? 19:58:32 takes skill 19:58:35 dcrawford: That would be cool 19:59:13 When SBCL+SLIME blows up, it's usually because I made a mistake, and my colleagues understand that. Plus, I fix it real quick, which is even more impressive. 19:59:17 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:00:18 Also, just because I type fast, and I use Emacs abbrevs, I think it looks impressive in general. 20:00:31 normally though, projectors do blow stuff up 20:00:46 nah 20:01:03 l3dx [n=thomas@unaffiliated/l3dx] has joined #lisp 20:01:28 So even people who are not initially convinced about Lisp, when they see someone as confortable as me typing things interactively, think that I must know what I am doing. 20:01:31 *mulander* started a sneaky plan to smuggle trace amount of lisp into his workplace 20:02:22 *amounts 20:02:23 mulander: my experience is that it is easy, as long as you don't ask permission. 20:03:07 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:03:15 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has joined #lisp 20:03:44 beach: It's hard if the app the team is working on is huge, has many years of devel behind it and is done mostly with oracle db and pl/sql stored procs + forms,reports 20:03:45 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:10 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 20:04:14 that's what we're doing in CL 20:04:19 beach: I started with the obvius attempt, replace the development toolchain with emacs :) 20:04:42 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 20:04:44 of course if I will survive that long. 20:04:59 mulander: Of course, if you are not convinced yourself that you have a better solution, it's going to be a hard sell. 20:05:09 my last 2 weeks involved hunting every place of code where people assumed that one of the columns will be number(3) forever... 20:05:47 and now it's number(4) forever more? 20:05:49 beach: I have a better solution, but I don't have momentum to pull it through atm 20:06:06 dcrawford: close, number(5)... 20:06:07 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A27D1C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 20:06:45 mulander: Sorry to hear that. I am very surprised though, because it is usually not that hard, as I have experienced several times. 20:07:00 mulander, what is a "toolchain"? 20:07:02 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 20:07:12 I couldn't find this in the dictionary 20:07:21 beach: ever tried with several hundred oracle packages each contains around 150 oracle stored procs/fns + 300-500 forms and a simillar amount of reports? 20:07:28 It's like a utility belt, but it's a chain, and you wear it around your shoulder like a bandolier. 20:07:29 beach: and this is just the core module of the app. 20:07:33 mulander: ewh 20:07:37 aah, thanks Riastradh 20:07:50 Anyway, this coming Monday, I'll give a talk on how to implement relations in Lisp. I'll do my usual stunt of typing forms interactively. It will look improvised and people will expect errors. but I have prepared and I know what to type. 20:07:58 jpcooper: by toolchain I understand the software used to devel and release the main product. 20:07:59 At your service, jpcooper! 20:08:40 beach: you should start posting 'screencasts' somewhere 20:08:40 -!- ggbbgg [n=russd@willers.employees.org] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:08:44 jpcooper: in example, sql-oracle instead of sqlplus instances. pcl-cvs insttead of wincvs + integration with the production planing system. 20:08:46 people love them, apparently 20:08:46 mulander, will it scale my e-tailing deliverables? 20:08:46 is there any special set-up required to build sbcl on x86-64 and/or multicore? I have not been able to build the git repo from the x86-64 1.0.22 binary yet... 20:08:51 mulander: No, I'll stay as far away from relational databases as I can get away with. 20:09:16 beach: I would love to do the same. 20:09:19 ah, the ten-year-prep off-the-cuff talks 20:09:22 tsuru: there shouldn't be anything special. 20:09:55 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has left #lisp 20:09:55 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 20:10:19 jpcooper: that doesn't even really mean anything 20:10:56 Grilinctus [n=Aankhen@122.162.159.16] has joined #lisp 20:11:00 too many buzzwords make the baby lisp alien cry 20:11:02 you don't say 20:12:01 pkhuong: i'm compiling on a quad core... I guess I'll try pasting output here in a second... as near as I can tell I don't have any configs that are causing problems... 20:12:15 tsuru: doesn't matter: the process is completely single threaded. 20:12:21 tsuru: it almost certainly shoudln't care how many cores you have 20:12:48 rsynnott: you know, I perfectly agree. In fact, now that I know that the "efficiency" of a typical lecture is about 15%, I really want to replace myself with a DVD of myself. 20:13:11 I don't like the screencast things myself 20:13:13 okay... good to know... this is my first time trying on x86-64/multi-core so I am just going down my list... 20:13:23 (generally because I need to use headphones to watch them) 20:14:11 rsynnott: I would like it, provided I were paid by the number of time it was showed, as opposed to the one time recording it. 20:14:15 -!- Grilinctus [n=Aankhen@122.162.159.16] has quit [Client Quit] 20:14:42 someone is doing subscription-based erlang screencasts now; bizarrely, he does in fact have people paying to subscribe 20:14:46 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:14:50 tsuru pasted "failing SBCL compile backtrace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72056 20:15:03 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:15:06 rsynnott: good to know I guess. 20:15:51 tsuru: what os? 20:16:30 pkhuong: linux ubuntu 8.10 x86-64 20:17:50 tsuru: can you build the last release? 20:18:51 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:12 pkhuong: 1.0.22? I haven't tried yet... lemme see 20:20:39 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.159.16] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:21:53 tsuru: it builds fine here on deb/testing x86-64. You might want to compare with someone else on ubuntu. 20:22:58 tsuru: 23 20:23:21 rsynnott: no 20:24:36 evenin' 20:25:41 rsynnott: I don't see why it wouldn't though; the beauty is that as little rendering is done as possible 20:27:19 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 20:28:01 although probably not so much on the home connection :) 20:28:04 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:31:41 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:01 hi Fare 20:32:25 fe[nl]ix, has iolib-posix been merged into osicat? 20:32:31 yes 20:32:33 has asdf-additions disappeared? 20:32:46 sorry I haven't followed the latest developments 20:33:02 pkhuong: 1.0.23 compiled fine... going to check my git source dir again... 20:34:13 Fare: the unix-dso stuff is now in cffi 20:34:43 ok 20:35:00 -!- kruth [n=chatzill@kruth.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 20:39:24 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:40:06 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 20:45:55 elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has joined #lisp 20:47:42 I knew I shoulda clean.sh-ed... 1.0.23.39 built fine 20:48:09 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:50:46 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:51:08 newlisper [n=wschroed@128.252.233.247] has joined #lisp 20:51:52 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:51:56 Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:52:12 fe[nl]ix, what's the consing status of iolib's io.multiplex? 20:52:36 I have never profiled it 20:53:05 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 20:55:12 r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:16 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:56:53 esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 20:59:52 Just a fundamental question I have not yet found an answer for... What is the difference between the result of (lambda (x) x) and (function (lambda (x) x)) ? I am always wondering if it is simply a matter of etiquette to prefix lambdas with #' in mapcar and others. Is the "function" redundant? 21:00:08 -!- ksergio [n=sgarcia@mail.nuecho.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:00:41 newlisper: macroexpand the lambda form and see that it expands to the other, so it's redundant 21:00:50 newlisper: LAMBDA is a macro that expands to #'(lambda ...) 21:01:00 newlisper: #' just looks prettier :) 21:01:08 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:01:20 clhs lambda 21:01:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm 21:01:29 newlisper, the former mightn't work on a Symbolics machine. 21:01:48 newlisper: the #'(lambda ...) is not the one which is redundant. It's essential. 21:04:58 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:06:07 So the lambda macro is sometimes not available in some context, but the lambda symbol would be? 21:07:32 the macro is part of the CL standard 21:07:53 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 21:09:10 pjb [n=t@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 21:10:17 a-s [n=user@92.80.99.25] has joined #lisp 21:10:56 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:11:30 t 21:11:51 madnificent: that would be great. Having stuff drawn up, pointed to, etc, in the screenies would be good. 21:12:27 madnificent: if you have any ideas, just grab the screenshots off the site and tar them up :) 21:12:50 then again, it might be *too* much (possibly), but it's worth a shot 21:13:48 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 21:14:57 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-178-234.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:15:37 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:22:59 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 21:23:34 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:59 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:26:48 lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has joined #lisp 21:27:48 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-62-216-221-162.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:30:27 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:30 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:32:04 vasa [n=vasa@mm-208-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 21:33:41 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:36:09 -!- umis_ [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 21:37:07 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 21:38:00 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:39:37 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:44 elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has joined #lisp 21:39:56 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:11 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:40:56 catnap [n=tommi@hoasnet-fe30dd00-48.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 21:41:28 what are the biggest advantages that lisp has over python? 21:41:57 more parentheses 21:42:04 (kidding) 21:42:05 more trolls 21:42:10 (not kidding) 21:42:22 Speed ? 21:42:35 macros? 21:42:40 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:42:42 Superior IDE :) 21:42:51 these are good points 21:42:55 repl? 21:42:58 Actually I don't use python so I couldn't say. But I was under the impression that it was kinda slow, and if you wanted fast stuff was written in C. 21:43:13 Like big parts of python actually being written not in python. 21:43:14 joshg: is repl so necessary 21:43:29 it's not necessary, but it's an advantage 21:43:38 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-208-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:43:56 modify stuff while it is running is also nice. 21:44:02 Python programmers mostly miss the potential of the repl, because running 'python' brings something simillar to a repl 21:44:04 how about that speed issue - can you not make python faster if necessary? 21:44:27 catnap: From what I understand the normal way of making python faster is to rewrite parts of python in C. 21:44:54 schme: so there's no python compiler then 21:44:57 that is bad 21:45:06 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:45:19 catnap: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 21:45:29 <_3b> python is the name of the compiler in a few lisp implementations, does that count? 21:45:30 catnap: Well I don't know. I just know that certain functions, or whatever they call it in python, are implemented in C. 21:46:03 catnap: http://norvig.com/python-lisp.html 21:46:41 catnap: that page should answer most of Your python-vs-lisp questions 21:46:47 _3b: I wonder why it was named that way 21:47:18 <_3b> catnap: dunno, but they picked it long before the other python did :) 21:50:00 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:51:09 vasa [n=vasa@mm-29-81-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 21:51:12 so far I don't remember even one problem, where I would have needed macros 21:51:32 perhaps you need to be more familiar with them first, and then you know how to use them effectively 21:52:04 <_3b> stop saying 'need' anyway, or you will fall in the turing tarpit 21:52:47 So far I don't remember even one problem where I would have needed anything more high level than assembly. 21:52:54 <_3b> you could write out the program on paper, and use some graph paper for heap, and execute it by hand if you wanted, you don't 'need' a computer even :) 21:52:54 you're right, in a way - not even computer is absolutely needed - you can always do the calculations with pen and paper 21:53:09 catnap: playing nethack with pen and paper sucks though :) 21:53:16 catnap: I don't remember eve one problem, when I would have needed a first-aid kit :) 21:53:21 *even 21:53:26 catnap: if you don't know about something, obviously you will not know when a situation arises that cries out for it 21:53:31 <_3b> look at the LOOP macro for example, could you do that in most other languages? 21:54:14 I've seen problems before where people *should* have used macros, but instead they mucked around with external code-generation steps to create C++ code 21:54:21 locklace: ofcourse I know about lisp macros are, but how to use them is another issue 21:54:28 because that was all they had available 21:54:49 What's this with packages "Hard to use" on the norvig python-vs-lisp list? 21:55:11 <_3b> and then note the ITERATE and SERIES packages, which implement replacements for LOOP, and integrate just as well into the language as LOOP 21:55:23 minion, memo for foom: I have to declare incompetence -- I've failed to figure out why CVS login suddenly began to fail for my build slave. 21:55:23 Remembered. I'll tell foom when he/she/it next speaks. 21:55:29 catnap: having heard about them is not sufficient to recognize situations that call for them 21:55:31 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:56:09 locklace: my point exactly - some examples could be helpfull 21:56:19 <_3b> catnap: if you have to type the same thing over and over again, a macro might be good idea 21:57:03 catnap: Netbeans, eclipse and other 'modern' IDE could be mistaken for a macro by some :) 21:57:13 catnap: there are lots of examples in pcl and on lisp 21:57:47 catnap: macros also play nice with building dsl's 21:58:30 _3b, in fact ITERATE integrates into the language _better_ than LOOP. 21:58:59 is that iterate some sort of loop 21:58:59 heh, just saw "integrate just as well into the language as loop" 22:00:11 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.8] has joined #lisp 22:00:18 <_3b> catnap: LOOP is a built in DSL in common lisp for writing loops, iterate is a replacement for LOOP 22:00:28 saikat_ [n=saikat@user-12lc8o3.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 22:01:25 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:01:37 <_3b> catnap: both combine quite a variety of features like iterating over various data structures, counting things, tracking sums, creating lists, etc. 22:02:17 that iterate must be a newcommer because I've never heard of it before 22:02:39 nah, it's just not built in 22:02:40 minion: tell catnap about iterate 22:02:40 catnap: look at iterate: iterate is a lispy and extensible replacement for the :(CLHS "LOOP") macro. http://www.cliki.net/iterate 22:02:42 I must admit that I never liked LOOP all that much 22:02:55 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 22:03:04 <_3b> it is a fairly popular package, not being in the standard is probably the most common reason for not using it :) 22:03:26 The question asked by catnap at the beginning was " what are the biggest advantages that lisp has over python?" I think that it would be more interesting to rephrase it into "How much of Common Lisp Python still has to implement?" 22:03:56 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4137.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:01 *_3b* wonders why someone who knows enough lisp to not like LOOP is asking about lisp vs python on a lisp channel? 22:04:07 One peculiar problem I encountered today was that I am restrained by the cpython binary sometimes 22:04:46 I love LOOP. 22:05:02 We have a python script at work that integrates with some software and I needed to wrap it up in some elisp. I had to use python2.4 do to the script nature but I had no way to overcome the default way that Python looked for it's include path. 22:05:06 *_3b* likes LOOP, except for it not being extensible 22:05:55 the only solution that work was to move the wrapper script to the same place as the library and cd into it before calling the script from emacs 22:06:06 -!- joshg [n=josh@S01060030bd077f55.va.shawcable.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:06:30 mulander: how are your Python problems related to Lisp? 22:07:18 (and good evening everyone) 22:09:05 is there a way to program animation in lisp? 22:09:22 like some sort of rotating box 22:09:43 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:45 <_3b> catnap: lots of ways 22:09:47 beach: the problem was with the way import is implemented in Python (at least in 2.4). Because of some design decisions made by people at the core I had no possibility to tailor the language to my own needs. 22:09:55 catnap: you would do it just the way you do it in any other language. 22:10:12 -!- saikat_ [n=saikat@user-12lc8o3.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 22:10:23 beach: in other languages I use some sort of package, but is there any for lisp 22:10:25 beach: I believe that with the same situation I could have cooked up or find a better way to implement a workaround without modyfing the core language and redeploying it to everyone in the company? 22:11:10 mulander: I still don't see the relationship with Lisp. 22:11:47 beach: You can redefine an exsiting lisp installation without even touching the C core right? 22:11:50 catnap: There's some opengl bindings. 22:11:50 mulander: see the privmsg I sent you, your problem is not a problem with python, it's one with your understanding of python. 22:11:51 foom, memo from deepfire: I have to declare incompetence -- I've failed to figure out why CVS login suddenly began to fail for my build slave. 22:12:00 catnap: Sure, but it is not called a "package" in Lisp. 22:12:01 catnap: and sdl if you want the 2d. 22:12:38 mulander: you make no sense. 22:13:16 foom, the exact command I see in the log works, when used from command line -- yet the logs say it exited with status -1 22:13:17 -!- Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-54458.home.otenet.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:13:18 I'd like to make some kind of space simulator like orbiter 22:13:21 beach: OK I will try again more clearly. I'm not a native speaker so maybe this causes the communication problem. 22:13:38 does asdf-binary-locations not work with slime-compile-and-load-file? 22:13:55 foom, it also wants an enter from stdin, I'm not sure twisted handles it, though. 22:14:10 deepfire: i expect the password prompt is what's causing the issue 22:14:18 mulander: I don't think that's the problem at all, but go ahead. 22:14:40 beach: I think mulander is talking about how lisp is different from python. And someone suggested that a lot of python is actually implemented in C and not in python 'cause python itself is a bit.. slow.. and it would seem to me that mulander is saying that having it all in C makes it harder to modify certain behaviours. 22:14:55 Ya baby. 22:15:14 foom, I tried to replace all instances of :pserver:anonymous@sbcl.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/sbcl in ~waterfall with :pserver:anonymous:@sbcl.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/sbcl (explicitly specified password), but it still uses the old way 22:15:23 schme: Fine, you answer mulander then. 22:15:53 foom, I'm feeling defeated by its superior intelligence.. 22:15:55 deepfire: what if you manually do cvs -d :pserver:anonymous:@sbcl.cvs.sourceforge.net:/cvsroot/sbcl login 22:15:57 hah :) 22:15:57 beach: the deployed version of python at my company had problems with modyfing the path that python searched for libraries. Non of the workaround I tried worked (sys.path.append, using __import__ etc.) I had no way to influence the binary to load a file without redeploying python itself. 22:16:14 foom, it works if I do that, which is why I did the search-and-replace 22:16:19 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-220.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 22:16:21 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 22:16:35 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:40 oh, wait, I meant the other thing. 22:16:40 mulander: perhaps you don't understand that this is a Lisp channel. 22:16:41 :pserver:anonymous@sbcl.cvs.sourceforge.net:2401/cvsroot/sbcl 22:16:43 I believe that with lisp I would have a more fine grained controll and reimplement the way that such an operation is done and maybe avoid future simillar problems. 22:17:05 although I'm confused as to where the 2401 is coming from 22:17:10 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc8o3.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:14 mulander: Well unless your lisp is all implemented in C ;) 22:17:20 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:17:39 but from the log it looks like it's the "rm" that's failing, not the cvs login 22:17:59 foom, that way it asks for a password, and successfully logs in when I press Enter. 22:18:00 maybe that directory doesn't exist? :) 22:18:10 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc8o3.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:29 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 22:18:33 Well, it sounds like #lisp is turning into #pyton, which is not my thing, so I'll tell you all good night. 22:18:50 foom, but -f means "don't fail if not exist" 22:19:04 beach: good night. 22:19:32 deepfire: indeed. Which makes it little odd that it fails. :) 22:19:54 beach: well sorry that I didn't express my example clearly enough. I do understand that this is a lisp channel and didn't mean to continue a full length discussion about Python. 22:19:58 wait a moment, let me see what rm actually returns.. 22:20:31 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:35 'rm -rf /home/waterfall/buildd/sbcl-linux-mips64/build && echo foo' echoes foo.. 22:21:21 why oh why did I apt-get -f dist-upgrade.. 22:21:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 22:21:57 what versino of buildbot do you have? 22:22:36 let me see.. 22:22:50 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-69-254-76-231.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:23:14 0.7.9-1 22:23:34 I wonder if there's some incompatibility 22:23:55 btw that and 0.7.5 22:23:57 oh! 22:24:32 dammit! i have been trying to install x86 binary on an amd64 machine .. would that be a problem? 22:24:45 in this case, sbcl 22:24:53 fusss: it'll work if you have the system libraries to run x86 binaries 22:25:31 it's a Xen box, but installed everything myself 2 years ago. forgot what it has. 22:25:36 fusss: running "ldd" on the sbcl binary will tell you what libs you're missing 22:26:47 missing all the major stuff 22:27:19 -!- Mage__ is now known as repnop 22:27:48 if only x86 has threads, then ia-64 is out? 22:28:10 Is there even an ia-64 sbcl? 22:28:18 there is not 22:28:19 sorry, x86-64 22:28:24 x86-64 has thread support 22:28:28 not the friken itanic 22:28:55 did anyone managed to compile clisp w/ gnu lightning jit support? 22:29:07 it always segfaults here 22:29:18 gcc 4.3 lightning 1.2c 22:29:26 clisp 2.47 22:29:45 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:30:20 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc8o3.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:30:51 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:30:55 gnu lightning, ahhh, fun times 22:33:29 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 22:35:02 -!- repnop [n=Mage@adsl-69-225-12-66.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:35:27 what the hell? "sbcl: not a dynamic executable" 22:35:42 foom, downgrading to 0.7.5 didn't help much 22:36:01 darn 22:36:01 fusss: what's the output of "file sbcl"? 22:36:15 heh, perhaps I'll have to downgrade twisted and dependencies.. 22:36:44 ELF 64-bit LSB executable ... 22:37:02 could my box not even be x86-64? 22:38:12 deepfire: I don't know. It's interesting that http://sbcl.static.net/buildbot/sbcl-linux-powerpc/builds/387/step-cvs/0 had the same failure but then the next build worked. 22:39:22 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 22:39:53 deepfire: perhaps running strace on it would give a clue as to what's *actually* failing. 22:40:10 fusss: uname -m ? 22:40:15 carbocalm [n=drjors2@206-248-177-208.dsl.teksavvy.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:17 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:31 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:40:49 x86_64 22:41:33 foom, downgrading python-twisted-* packages to their previous versions didn't help eiter... 22:41:47 let me see... 22:41:50 but i changed the names of a few machine specs while compiling the kernel, to "thwart attacks" (mensa member here) 22:42:35 fusss: try file -L /lib/libc.so.6 22:43:12 ELF 32-bit LSB shared object, fe[nl]ix 22:43:26 so i'm on a 32-bit platform after all? 22:43:33 it would seem to 22:43:56 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.239] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:44:22 but sbcl crashes "sbcl needs a system with NPTL enabled" 22:44:32 Hallo, i've started learning clisp, understand clos, packages, macros. Does anybody knows a complete lisp application i can go tru the source code ? It's my problem I understand better when i go to the real source code than snippets... 22:44:35 Thank yo. 22:44:43 it's a 2.6.2* kernel, fwiw 22:44:48 Kaz pasted "PKG: Finer-grained read-time package control." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/72068 22:45:25 carbocalm: pick a problem you're interested in, find the libraries you might need, and peruse at leisure 22:46:11 Sorry for interrupting after a longer pause. In summary schme understood me quite correctly. I was reffering to the difference between python and lisp. I tried to explain it by using an example of how one certain feature worked that I had no influence over without touching the binaries. And the example related to lisp assuming that this case could be resolved on the language level without dropping to the bare bones of the 22:46:11 implementation. My response was quite lengthy and maybe the context was missed between my msgs. I'm again sorry if this was understood as an attempt to solve or ask about a particular python problem. I hope that this explanation is easier to understand. 22:46:32 goddamnit, a heisenbug 22:46:37 carbocalm: poke around cliki.net too :) 22:47:01 deepfire: it worked without you changing anything? that's...irritating 22:47:58 twistd --no_save -y buildbot.tac >dump 2>&1 strace -f twistd --no_save -y buildbot.tac >dump 2>&1 ahhhh, i'm running 32-bit slackware on a 64-bit AMD opteron. How on earth is that even possible? 22:49:11 fusss: Isn't that kinda normal? 22:49:16 gah, I rechecked it, and it indeed is a heisenbug. 22:49:18 no 22:49:47 <_3b> fusss: wasn't being able to run 32 bit stuff transparently half the point of x86-64? 22:49:56 fusss: But they do x86-32 without speed loss? 22:49:59 well, I have no aversion for it to run from under strace >/dev/null, so be it. 22:50:00 not the goddamn OS 22:50:17 deepfire: :( 22:50:20 I'm not sure how it will affect sbcl, though.. 22:50:21 fusss: I've been running 32bit linux on x86-64 machines for ages :) 22:50:21 so i have to bug my xen host i guess 22:50:40 I think sbcl doesn't work under strace. 22:50:49 at least it didn't used to, maybe it was fixed by now 22:50:51 thanks you. 22:51:16 schme: so what exactly is 64-bit about that? that's like asking the rabbi to circumcise "upto 50%" 22:51:35 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:51:37 haha, strace isn't enough, strace -f is required 22:51:59 fusss: You just don't switch to 64 bit mode in the regular boot sequence. The cooked sand is still x86-64. 22:52:00 perhaps I need a fresher kernel. 22:52:27 deepfire: man, I dunno, I thought sbcl was the only thing that changed behavior under strace. :) 22:53:25 foom, I hope Thiemo will come to rescue us :-) 22:53:43 fusss: If I remember correctly the whole thing with amd64 running x86-32 natively was their big selling point.. before intel started doing the same and calling it something else. 22:54:32 schme: that's mostly useful in the sense that you can run 32 bit processes in a 64 bit OS, though. 22:54:59 do i have to enable NPTL manually iin 2.6 series? 22:56:07 schme: Compared to IA-64 which is super expensive, didn't support IA-32 (in Itanium I there was a hw emulator. Damn slow.) and was of little availability... 22:56:28 s/emulator/support/ 22:57:01 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:59:32 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 22:59:38 and the error message i could no longer ignore explained everything 23:00:22 "this SBCL requires NPTL: use a new glibc, use older sbcl, or stop using LD_ASSUME_KERNEL" 23:00:48 fusss: that's a pretty funny error 23:02:00 phf [n=user@c-98-231-150-21.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:22 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.53.242] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:02:57 fusss: NPTL support depends on how was glibc compiled 23:04:57 okay, it only works 1) from root via 'sudo waterfall' 2) with a PTY (through screen) 3) under strace -f 23:05:07 take something away and it breaks. 23:05:15 pkhuong: Well I find it most useful because I can't get X working with my video card on 64bit linux here, so I can run 32bit linux:) 23:05:25 my NPTL enabled libs are in /lib/tls-disabled, why? 23:05:34 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:05:36 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:05:59 foom, going to bed.. 23:06:31 fusss: They are copies that use different stuff for thread-local storage 23:06:56 (i.e. there is one additional indirection) 23:06:57 deepfire: okay, sorry I can't be more help. :( 23:08:10 fusss: Or rather, the lack of that additional redirection forces some people to use TLS-disabled. It's been a long time since I had to worry about it. 23:08:28 on the 32bit matter, 32bit operation on current intel chips is actually often FASTER than 64bit, even if running a 64it OS 23:08:36 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 23:09:12 (the core 2s do clever thgs fusing instructions, but some of it only works in 32bit mode) 23:09:12 rsynnott: Because Intel optimizes their chips mainly for 32bit performance 23:09:35 p_l: well, if by optimise you mean that specific enhancement 23:09:44 rsynnott: It took some time for Core 2 to surpass 64bit speed of K8 23:09:56 even when they were superior in 32bit 23:10:07 (though the new core i7 things should be at least as fast in 64bit mode as in 32bit mode) 23:10:27 in 64 bit mode, it has extra registers, but otherwise performance should be rather similar 23:11:34 Unfortunately the competition is dropping off... 23:11:46 huh? 23:11:47 ah, well, that was inevitable 23:11:59 Intel took a SERIOUS wrong turn with netburst 23:12:02 shanghai is every bit the chip the i7 is. 23:12:24 bougyman: when price/performance is taken into account? 23:12:34 those aren't apples to apples. 23:12:43 i7 is desktop, shanghai is server. 23:12:56 when intel releases their xeon of that breed, it will be shanghai-opteron priced. 23:13:04 and yeah, i7 you need a new mobo 23:13:12 you can put an opteron shanghai in a barcelona slot. 23:13:39 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:13:44 so no need to pay for new infrastructure for a shanghai. anyone with xeon is gonna need new mobos. 23:13:47 wait and see on core i7 xeons, then :) 23:14:01 bougyman: in practice, it is not common to replace server processors 23:14:06 generally, you get a new server 23:14:19 it's been our practice to replace processors. 23:14:27 (except where the non-processor infrastructure is terribly expensive) 23:14:31 rsynnott: We will have to wait a little. The newest addition to Xeon family was 6 core model (i.e. 3 dual cores latched onto one module) 23:14:36 we generally buy below the big price break and upgrade when the price break moves after the 6mo point. 23:15:02 so i'd buy barcelona on a server now, upgrade to shanghai processor in 6 months. 23:15:16 it gives us a little better lifespan, and chips on the shelf in case of emergency. 23:15:25 bougyman: at this point, don't core 2 xeons beat barcelona? 23:15:35 rsynnott: depends on the use. 23:15:42 on high I/O tasks, it's not even close. 23:15:47 rsynnott: If you got beyond 2 sockets, xeons fall down 23:15:58 barcelona's memory-on-chip gives it a big I/O advantage. 23:16:01 and some amd64 boards use more than one IO bus 23:16:03 p_l: yes, certainly for the current xeons 23:16:13 core2 still has memory controller on a bridge. 23:17:03 so for, say, our asterisk servers, a puny opteron will blow away a beefy xeon. 23:17:08 rsynnott: There is no QPI Xeons now, so it's all unknown. 23:17:38 *rsynnott* is still stuck with antique netburst xeons and early opterons :( 23:18:12 Unfortunately the commodity market, especially among people who buy at big shops, is controlled by intel 23:18:30 *rsynnott* doesn't find these things a religious issue 23:18:46 if the amd chip suits better, buy it, if the intel chip suits better, buy it 23:19:01 exactly. 23:19:05 we have a nice mix. 23:19:15 rsynnott: Oh, the reason why intel controls is not price/performance 23:19:16 all of our blades are xeon, cause they don't do heavy I/O. 23:19:41 netaust1n [n=austinsm@72-254-136-53.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:44 it's that fine line in contracts: "you get those perks if you avoid shipping amd hw" 23:20:03 p_l: that's mostly gone away, no? 23:20:11 bougyman: nope 23:20:49 big companies had gone out of it, like Dell, but the supermarket-style shops are the ones really enforcing them 23:22:15 I spent a long time going through shops like that when I was buying laptops 23:23:00 i've been all supermicro in servers and lenovo for desktops for a couple years. 23:24:02 Well, my Thinkpad is quite nice, if only it wasn't the cheapest of the line 23:24:24 which makes my old Turion TL50 beat it in many tasks 23:24:33 man I want a 700w w/wacom now. 23:24:49 i've been drooling over that since they came out with it. 23:24:58 *p_l* has cheapest 15.4" R61i 23:25:12 i've the 15.4 T61, almost the same. 23:25:29 only difference in mine and yours is i've got the nvidia card instead of intel onboard, iirc. 23:26:36 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:01 of course, I'm rather fixed to Intel on the desktop, no matter how expensive it gets 23:27:04 mac :) 23:27:18 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk111.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:27:32 can't the amds be hackintosh, too? 23:27:41 bougyman: yes. 23:27:42 or you're talking about offician Apple/Intel hw. 23:27:49 boyscared: but it's really horribly unstable. 23:27:52 err 23:27:54 bougyman* 23:28:17 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:28:37 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:45 Hi. Which LISP is the closest to the original LISP 1.5 (i.e. the PDP-11 LISP etc.) ?? 23:28:59 Request [n=ajsda@41.233.16.40] has joined #lisp 23:29:01 Free Programming ebooks With Direct Links & Request ebooks Here : http://request-ebooks.blogspot.com/ 23:29:07 Isn't LISP 1.5 the one that had M-Expressions? 23:29:13 -!- Request [n=ajsda@41.233.16.40] has quit [K-lined] 23:29:14 pjb has one. 23:29:29 sbcl doesn't build with clisp? 23:29:34 bougyman: yep, I'd ideally like a computer where everything actually works :) 23:29:58 sykopomp: I guess not. 23:30:07 mjf: is this out of curiosity, or are you planning on reviving it? :) 23:30:12 sykopomp: I guess LISP 1.0 used M-Expressions... 23:30:34 is Clojure M-Ex? 23:30:44 fusss: don't think so 23:30:59 bougyman: nothing is m-expression. M-expressions are a horrible thing that should never have been conceived. 23:31:00 mjf: I think LISP 1.5 still had M-exp 23:31:04 rsynnott: I would like to study a little, because I am studying the LISP history atm. 23:31:16 fusss: depends on many many things. I think ECL works. 23:31:23 there's actually an implementation of M-expressions for common lisp out there on the internet, if you want to rip your eyes out of your sockets. 23:31:33 cmucl? 23:31:57 cmucl works, i remember 23:31:59 fusss: but what's the point? 23:32:27 pkhuong: trying to compile latest sbcl 23:32:33 isn't logo m-expressions? 23:32:35 pkhuong: actually. Arch Linux's pkgbuild for sbcl requires cmucl to build sbcl with. 23:32:41 p_l: If you mean these things like: "cons[a;b] -> [... something ...]" I do not guess, because it is not mentioned in any examples I have found on LISP 1.5 and it is also not mentioned in the PDP-11 LISP manual... 23:32:50 sykopomp: that's pointless. You might as well use sbcl. 23:32:59 mjf: PDP-11? 23:33:05 pkhuong: I know. I found it interesting. 23:33:14 p_l: such a weird huge machine:) 23:33:30 mjf: people used such expressions in papers and desugared themselves. 23:33:34 p_l: But it does not matter very much. 23:33:39 mjf: I think you are mistaking the petite PDP-11 with PDP-10 23:33:44 pkhuong: exactly, in papers 23:33:45 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless34.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:33:52 p_l: :) 23:34:09 *p_l* still has MACLISP somewhere 23:34:16 p_l: petite, it depends on point of view, but both were amasing machines... 23:34:47 p_l: MACLISP? I read of it but was not able to find some sources... 23:34:55 mjf: 64kB of address space against 4MW <--- My definition 23:35:03 p_l: LOL 23:35:10 mjf: It's easy to obtain... harder to get it working 23:35:28 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:35:31 later 23:35:32 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 23:35:32 some people still write code in it sometimes (I had seen a basic HTTP server) 23:35:33 p_l: what language is it written in? 23:35:57 mjf: MACLISP + PDP-10 MACRO 23:36:16 p_l: aha, perhaps I can run it in some emulator... 23:37:19 mjf: Easiest way - get klh10 + ready-to-run ITS image 23:37:34 ITS installation process is... interesting 23:37:42 You will still need to play with the tapes, though 23:38:01 p_l: but, to be honest, I am looking for some source codes of some LISP that is very close to the LISP 1.5 (that means that besides typical minimal set of instructions it uses evalquote as the top-level and has got PROG, GO, MACRO, FUNCTION and FEXPR, EXPR, SUBR, FSUBR etc in it)... 23:38:31 AFAIK the MACLISP files on the publicly available ITS image are broken, so you need to reload them from tape and compile 23:38:32 p_l: to have a lisp to run original LISP 1.5 source LISP codes in... 23:38:54 mjf: I don't think you'll get closer than MACLISP 23:39:08 Not without some serious moving 23:39:41 p_l: hm, but it's definitely not compilable and runable on modern UNIX systems and I will need to run in some PDP-10 emulator, if there's any... 23:40:19 p_l: perhaps in simh there's pdp-10 too, but I did not check it yet... 23:40:39 p_l: and I strongly feel it will be still very troublesome 23:41:02 there are pdp10 emulators, I think 23:41:28 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:41:42 mjf: simh will require you to install ITS from tapes, or find someone willing to do that for you, and then transfer remaining dump files 23:42:06 p_l: you said before you got it somewhere... 23:42:18 There's a complete working image for klh10 23:42:32 the tapes are available from MIT 23:42:48 at what point did the case change? :) 23:43:33 foom, ok, downgrading coreutils fixed the need for strace 23:43:44 I recommend going with the prepared image (google it - mine is probably >1000km from where I am) and klh10. Restoring few files from tape is easier than doing the whole install process of ITS 23:43:45 I couldn't sleep.. 23:44:09 deepfire: wow. I wonder what's in the new "rm" that makes it randomly break 23:44:26 p_l: klh10 ? 23:44:35 p_l: I need to google this out... 23:44:39 foom, I have a strace 23:44:39 -!- catnap [n=tommi@hoasnet-fe30dd00-48.dhcp.inet.fi] has left #lisp 23:44:46 mjf: The more advanced PDP-10 emulator 23:44:53 p_l: great... 23:44:58 deepfire: but only of it working, right? 23:45:09 foom, I saw syscalls like newfstatat, _newselect etc 23:45:17 foom, the kernel is 2.6.18 23:45:22 SIMH supports only KS-10, klh10 main reason for existence was KL-10 (useful if you want TOPS-20) 23:45:35 hrm...this isn't a VM or anything is it? 23:45:38 Also it boots the images available on net 23:45:41 foom, no I've had it breaking _with_ strace 23:46:01 foom, no, native SGI O2 23:46:13 p_l: MACLISP is a dialect of the LISP Programming Language that ran on DEC PDP10 and Honeywell Multics in the 1970's and early 1980's. <-- I do not know Multics much but was is also written in sort of assebler or yet in some higher language such as K&R or so? 23:46:38 foom, I mean, eventually I've found it break with strace too 23:46:46 ugh, well, I guess it could just be a kernel/userland mismatch issue 23:47:03 mjf: You are not going to get MULTICS I think :) 23:47:03 right 23:47:15 pretty sure multics predates unix 23:47:17 I suspect those bugs are not found as quickly on mips as on x86. :) 23:47:25 mjf: Most of MULTICS was written in PL/I 23:47:32 I did hear the world's last multics machine was shut down a few years back 23:47:34 p_l: aha, PL/1 :) 23:47:40 (sorry, I mean predates C) 23:47:42 Good night! 23:47:47 rsynnott: 2000 23:47:51 good night again. :) 23:48:33 anryx [n=anryx@213.210.175.188.adsl.nextra.cz] has joined #lisp 23:49:36 Hm, there are such beautiful programs in LISP 1.5 and MacLISP on dspace@mit to be found... I really *must* find some way to try them and see them working :-) 23:50:10 mjf: As I said... klh10 23:50:27 ITS was the OS of choice for MACLISP 23:51:12 be prepared for a shock, though. It probably doesn't act similar to any system you had used before 23:51:36 Oh, and TECO manual is lying somewhere near AI Lab. Good luck finding it 23:52:12 What about Franz LISP? 23:52:32 once you install EMACS in TECO, you should be all set, right? :) 23:52:39 mjf: It was much later I think 23:52:54 foom: simply type EMACS. But it doesn't mean it's easy to get around :D 23:52:57 p_l: I use original plain old vi (not vim) or ed 23:53:01 mjf: a lot of old programs can be run almost directly in Common Lisp. 23:53:17 mjf: There was no VI on ITS. Nor ED 23:53:28 mjf: have a look at http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/wang.html 23:53:42 p_l: I know, I just pointed out I do not emacs (no flame please)... 23:53:47 There was almighty TECO, and its servant, EMACS 23:54:03 *p_l* doesn't want to flame about editors 23:54:04 mjf: basically, you just need a few glue routines that are lost in time. 23:54:58 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.172.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:05 p_l: interested link... 23:55:45 p_l: there was no M-exp in early lisp. That was the point of implementing them! Russel didn't wait for McCarthy to deliver the full M-expr specs, he just implement a lisp using S-expr (against the advice of McCarthy) and it just worked. 23:56:30 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:56:51 p_l: In any case, check the sources: http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/lisp15-0.0.2.tar.gz 23:57:40 pjb: AFAIK McCarthy said it's not even considered to be a project to work on at that time, and Russel came to him saying that if he implements eval in assembly, he gets the whole language 23:57:47 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.8] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:58:40 I read that too (somewhere, I can not remember where exactly atm) 23:58:49 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:58:50 p_l: Yes, that's what I'm trying to convey. 23:59:12 What if I tried to write LISP 1.5 in C? :-) 23:59:38 Do you think some people would use it? (for educational purposes only, of course)... 23:59:56 mjf: well, first you could try to locate the sources of the LISP 1.5 compiler. It was writen in LISP 1.5, so...