02:17:33 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 02:17:33 02:17:33 -!- names: ccl-logbot rme ozy` ace4016 etfb george__ ikki mcxx manuel_ ths_ kgn dfox ebzzry syamajala ManateeLazyCat drdo dash__ Quadrescence p8m p_l l_a_m tompa delYsid myrkraverk akhilleus araujo Bucciarati highlev ltbarcly_ tsuru Eno_ _8david eliasm jabberwocky plan9 fusss lemoinem pkhuong schme_ mathrick mgr existentialmonk Aisling m4thrick jestocost BrianRice Krystof daniel_ saikat wolfboy22 sellout kejsaren pjb replor lexclose maskd andrewy Odin- 02:17:33 -!- names: milanj cmm JuanDaugherty pstickne borism__ lispm sad0ur patmatch sohail skrit_ te_ adeht kzar timor rdd fe[nl]ix eirik PissedNumlock spacebat wgl johs fnordus pierre_thierry keithr Patzy kmkaplan Fade retupmoca j_king yango ianmcorvidae bohanlon minion gz dublpaws Cel kpreid jlouis xan_ ia chrisdone sabetts Balooga_ pchrist ``Erik Thas seelenquell_ Modred UnwashedMeme1 mogunus Riastradh slyrus_ locklace H4ns segv_ mqt sbok rread NoorDextor 02:17:33 -!- names: willb sjbach ggbbgg cracki luis pragma_ tltstc esden Soulman Jasko2 PanGoat Jarvellis jeremiah jstracke Hun kidd kleppari kidd1 nurv101 CrazyEddy xjrn bob_f Zephtar dto thijso djkthx x6j8x froog grkz srcerer mikezor xristos bfein lyte z0d spiderbyte vsync olejorgenb abeaumont billstclair specbot lisppaste dwave mornfall Anarki nasloc__ wlr beach eno cYmen ineiros jrockway dmiles_afk bougyman birdsbite _CitizenKane_ cky persi Ifur phadthai 02:17:33 -!- names: matimago jsnell lnostdal bdowning Tristam arbscht tarbo authentic hefner tessier rumbleca mbac gaja free_tinker eevar Soulmann Adrinael Balooga ahaas hefner_ wedgeV yahooooo Khisanth Draggor kuhzoo galdor lucca mvilleneuve joga vorian lasts _theHAM V-ille spiaggia tic seb- cmatei rotty koning_r1bot abend_ sykopomp vcgomes Ginei_Morioka replaca cipher kuwabara Wombat1 dcrawford e271 DrForr azuk simonb scode Buganini emma maxote rsynnott slyrus 02:17:33 -!- names: Starsie boyscared bobrown erg chawls chandler l4ndfo felipe agemo dostoyevsky jmcphers drewc cods mr_uggla r0bby michaelw guenther__ merlincorey Partyzan1 larstobi andrerav albino zbigniew herbieB technik pok djinni` meingbg housel foom clog _3b chii qebab rey_ @antifuchs turbo24prg Xof aking Guest53748 jollygood_______ 02:18:39 *_3b* needs to find interesting problems to work on that don't require FFI to large APIs :/ 02:19:29 <_3b> or possibly s/problems/platforms/ 02:20:28 well, what interests you? 02:20:55 silas428 [n=ryanpayt@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:15 <_3b> so far, mostly things with the FFI problem :( 02:21:21 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:21:26 crod [n=cmell@cb8a6a-153.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:21:28 <_3b> opengl for example 02:21:43 <_3b> or flash, or cuda 02:22:15 there's already a opengl binding or two, no? 02:22:22 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@dsl081-166-030.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [] 02:22:33 *_3b* wrote the low level ffi part of one of them :p 02:22:39 <_3b> (at least partially) 02:23:12 <_3b> and none of them are fully wrapped nicely, most don't even try to go beyond autogenerated ffi bindings 02:23:37 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a94-005.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:24:15 <_3b> possibly i need to just give up sooner on trying to autogenerate nice bindings 02:26:42 I think 'autogenerate' and 'nice bindings' may be incompatible 02:27:17 though you can always autogenerate bindings, then writea nicer wraper upon them 02:27:31 -!- etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-44-109.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.4 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 02:28:01 <_3b> yeah, i can usually get mostly nice (if low level) bindings autogenerated, not quite 100% though 02:28:18 <_3b> nobody ever uses their naming conventions consistently enough :p 02:28:37 I'm currently attempting to do this for wxWnidows 02:28:40 *windows 02:28:59 its own API is a bit horrible, so a nice wrapper is more or less required 02:29:05 _3b: did you work on cl-opengl? 02:29:14 <_3b> fusss: yeah 02:29:28 _3b: fucking aye! well done mate. 02:29:54 i did ncurses bindings for cmucl :-P 02:30:02 <_3b> fusss: most of the niceness of cl-opengl is other people, i just made sure it had complete bindings at the low level :) 02:30:21 did you autogenerate any of it? 02:30:33 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 02:30:40 <_3b> everything in %gl is autogenerated 02:30:45 fusss: so that people can write dumb-terminal apps in lisp? :) 02:31:03 _3b: what tool did you use to autogenerat them? 02:31:07 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45C1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 02:31:52 <_3b> see the tools dir in cl-opengl for the code 02:31:56 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:18 <_3b> ugly mess of regexes and such to parse the gl .spec files, and mangle the names 02:32:40 <_3b> (the part i did that is, someone else wrote a non-regex based parser to generate the constants) 02:33:13 _3b: i have a portable gui library in the back-burner; i'm using lambda-gtk as a backend but it's really hard updating it. the author used a tool i can't find anywhere else 02:33:32 isn't there some "grovel" tool? 02:33:50 sbcl has it, corman has it, etc. no portable way to futz around with C headers? 02:34:02 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45C1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:07 <_3b> cffi might have one, not sure 02:34:24 hmm 02:35:04 <_3b> i think those are more for figuring out platform specific details than generating bindings though 02:35:05 anyway, i have more stuff on my plate right now 02:35:44 yeah, grovel mostly does stuff like printf ("%d" sizeof (int)), etc. 02:35:51 <_3b> right 02:36:30 alright, off to spam people in three languages :-P 02:36:43 <_3b> yay, i can (setf (flash.display:width foo) 200) now :) 02:37:07 really? wow 02:37:19 *_3b* cheats though, setf special cases properties and locals, can't write general SETF expanders or setf functions yet 02:37:29 i was gonna say 02:38:28 <_3b> figured i shoudl do the easy parts of it even if it was a hack internally though, so code that uses it doesn't need changed later 02:38:40 yup 02:39:24 OT: i think i'm doing something nasty; layering a new application atop an unrelated database 03:36:00 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 03:36:00 03:36:00 -!- names: ccl-logbot Tordek repnop benny rvirding quadrate H4ns1 banisterfiend simplechat segv__ seelenquell rottcodd epoch crod rme ozy` ace4016 george__ ikki mcxx manuel_ ths_ kgn dfox ebzzry syamajala ManateeLazyCat drdo dash__ Quadrescence p8m p_l l_a_m tompa delYsid myrkraverk akhilleus araujo Bucciarati highlev ltbarcly_ tsuru Eno_ _8david eliasm jabberwocky plan9 lemoinem pkhuong schme_ mathrick mgr existentialmonk Aisling m4thrick Krystof daniel_ 03:36:00 -!- names: saikat wolfboy22 sellout kejsaren pjb replor lexclose maskd andrewy milanj cmm JuanDaugherty pstickne borism__ lispm sad0ur patmatch sohail skrit_ te_ adeht kzar timor rdd fe[nl]ix eirik PissedNumlock spacebat wgl johs fnordus pierre_thierry keithr Patzy kmkaplan Fade retupmoca j_king yango ianmcorvidae bohanlon minion gz dublpaws Cel kpreid jlouis xan_ ia chrisdone sabetts Balooga_ pchrist ``Erik Thas Modred UnwashedMeme1 mogunus Riastradh 03:36:00 -!- names: slyrus_ locklace mqt sbok rread NoorDextor willb sjbach ggbbgg cracki luis pragma_ tltstc esden Soulman Jasko2 PanGoat Jarvellis jeremiah jstracke kidd kleppari kidd1 nurv101 CrazyEddy xjrn bob_f Zephtar dto thijso djkthx x6j8x froog grkz srcerer mikezor xristos bfein lyte z0d spiderbyte vsync olejorgenb abeaumont billstclair specbot lisppaste dwave mornfall Anarki nasloc__ wlr beach eno cYmen ineiros jrockway dmiles_afk bougyman birdsbite 03:36:00 -!- names: _CitizenKane_ cky persi Ifur phadthai matimago jsnell lnostdal bdowning Tristam arbscht tarbo authentic hefner tessier rumbleca mbac gaja free_tinker eevar Soulmann Adrinael Balooga ahaas hefner_ wedgeV yahooooo Khisanth Draggor kuhzoo galdor lucca mvilleneuve joga vorian lasts _theHAM V-ille spiaggia tic seb- cmatei rotty koning_r1bot abend_ sykopomp vcgomes Ginei_Morioka replaca cipher kuwabara Wombat1 dcrawford e271 DrForr azuk simonb scode 03:36:00 -!- names: Buganini emma maxote rsynnott slyrus Starsie boyscared bobrown erg chawls chandler l4ndfo felipe agemo dostoyevsky jmcphers drewc cods mr_uggla r0bby michaelw guenther__ merlincorey Partyzan1 larstobi andrerav albino zbigniew herbieB technik pok djinni` meingbg foom clog _3b chii qebab rey_ @antifuchs turbo24prg Xof aking Guest53748 jollygood_______ housel 03:36:23 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:35 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:59 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.130.44] has joined #lisp 03:44:49 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:45:10 great soundtrack. 03:45:19 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:45:25 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:23 phao [n=phao@20158147087.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 03:48:33 BrianRice-mb_ [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:42 BrianRice-mb__ [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:29 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 03:52:47 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 03:54:05 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:54:44 -!- BrianRice-mb_ [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:55:51 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:01:52 at the risk of sounding paranoid, i might have seen a short lived DoS after the departure of the above troll 04:02:47 at freenode, is that possible? 04:03:33 wouldn't at least a DDoS be required directed to distinct tor nodes? 04:03:45 dunno. but blinking lights stood bright 04:05:31 <_3b> JuanDaugherty: not to dos someone not using tor 04:08:25 _3b, ah. 04:13:27 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-67-161-89-244.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:17:33 -!- phao [n=phao@20158147087.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:19:54 -!- BrianRice-mb__ [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:19:54 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:21:00 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a6a-153.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:21:06 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:18 crod [n=cmell@cb8a6a-153.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:22:59 So... what stream should I be writing to with hunchentoot? 04:23:14 It seems like handler functions should return a string, which is then sent to a client. 04:25:29 cky_ [n=cky@202-74-223-70.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 04:25:35 kgn_ [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:27:31 <_3b> returning a string is probably fine, in your paste earlier, you bound *standard-output* to the string stream, so just write to that in nested functions 04:27:51 ahh, okay, thanks. 04:31:05 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:31:35 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:34:50 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:37:15 fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:40 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:38:56 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-7-225.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:42:55 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:44:31 Rice has been churning out some amazing compiler hackers 04:44:40 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [No route to host] 04:54:12 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.23.128] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:56:12 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:59:48 tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has joined #lisp 05:01:38 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 05:02:20 mogunus: for hunchentoot, you will want to ultimately capture what's written to your stream and return it as a string 05:03:09 -!- quadrate [n=chatzill@146.115.53.141] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:03:50 rsynnott: I'm unsure how to manage that. 05:06:38 <_3b> mogunus: with-html-output-to-string does that 05:06:52 Ah! I just got it working. 05:10:18 -!- kgn_ [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:12:16 _3b: some light reading ;-) http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/96d32a463068044e 05:13:36 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a6a-153.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:13:52 crod [n=cmell@cb8a6a-153.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:14:52 This is great, I've got exactly the "function stacking" behavior that I wanted now. 05:15:48 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:17:24 lisp-newbie [n=user@c-76-118-78-185.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:50 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E476F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:34 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 05:19:42 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:20:03 -!- segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1F6D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:06 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E899.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:42 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:22:41 g'day. What a day for lisp. 05:24:36 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-7-225.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:24:43 hello schme_ 05:25:14 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has left #lisp 05:25:22 Hello all, I'm new to Lisp and I'm having trouble viewing problems in terms of functional solutions. I am working on a natural language processing agent that takes a (list "strings") aka a sentence and replaces each word with it's part of speech. The point of the program is to see if this new list (a list of parts of speech representing the original sentence) can be generated by a language of rules (grammars). 05:25:33 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 05:26:02 I am having trouble with a specific function which should just test if the sentence can ultimately be generated by grammar-A grammar-B and or grammar-C 05:26:27 *schme_* sips coffee and tries to read that again. 05:26:43 Ultimately I'd like to just display output of "This sentence can be generated by grammar B" but I'm not sure what the best way to do it would be. 05:27:27 hmm.. so you have maybe ("a" "dog" "runs" "around") ? 05:27:30 lisp-newbie: are the grammars context-free? 05:27:44 beach: That's the point, yes. and schme_ Yes. 05:27:46 *schme_* needs to wake up a bit more. 05:28:21 I wrote a function which converts a sentence to rules, and then a function to test if the rules can be generated by grammar A, grammar B, and grammar C 05:28:37 lisp-newbie: then just parse the sentence according to the grammar, using for instance the Earley parsing algorithm (which accepts all context-free grammars). 05:28:37 But I don't know how to alert the user which grammar succeeds. 05:29:03 Earley? I will look that up, thank you kindly for the suggestion. 05:29:06 Oh. you've already done the hard part then? :) 05:29:17 schme_: So it seems. 05:29:23 mogunus pasted "further confusion" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71732 05:29:48 So, in that code, numeros works fine, and numeros-b does not. 05:29:48 I guess I am kind of new to Lisp I/O and don't know how to output multiple strings, or if I need like a reader-macro for escaping (avoiding evaluation of the string) 05:30:22 lisp-newbie: I'm not sure how you want your output, but FORMAT might be your friend :) 05:30:33 Ah. 05:31:13 lisp-newbie: if you already know how to detect that, you do not need any other parsing algorithm, just do (cond ((parse sentence grammar-a) "the sentence can be genearated by grammar A") ((parse sentence grammar-b) "the sentence can be generated by grammar B") .... (t "the sentence cannot be generated by any of the grammars")) 05:31:54 Ah, beach. That was very helpful. 05:32:02 lisp-newbie: and if you want to use I/O, just surround it with (print (cond ...)) 05:32:05 beach: Though that will not really check if it can be generated by *all* the grammars :) 05:32:16 Calling unordered-links can't be the problem, because that happens in both versions. I don't understand why the split version isn't working. issue-out works fine when I call it on an issue object on the REPL (writing correct HTML to *standard-output*) 05:32:18 schme_: True. 05:32:22 schme_: sure it will. You only mentioned that you have A, B and C. 05:32:44 oops lisp-newbie I meant 05:32:58 nope, I did mean schme_ 05:33:04 sort of 05:33:07 beach: Hm.. but if grammar-A is OK, it will not go on to check B, C, no? 05:33:16 right 05:33:22 that wasn't part of the spec :) 05:33:32 Hoh. 05:33:35 I thought it was. 05:33:36 heh. 05:33:43 I just woke up :) 05:33:47 -!- zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:33:54 lisp-newbie: /ignore schme_ ;) 05:33:55 lisp-newbie: do you need to tell the user about each grammar that succeeds? 05:34:30 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:34:34 Oh, I'm an idiot. 05:34:40 Nevermind that whole paste/question. 05:34:45 mogunus: I am glad I am not alone :) 05:34:53 beach: Yeah. 05:34:58 http://pastebin.com/d3e455067 05:35:03 lisp-newbie: you didn't say that initially 05:35:03 That is the current idea. 05:35:23 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45C1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35:28 "if the sentence can ultimately be generated by grammar-A grammar-B and or grammar-C" ;) I read it as test all, all the time ;) 05:35:37 -!- albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:35:47 woo. but it works! I'm glad my thing works. I was just testing it wrong. 05:35:52 *schme_* tries to remember the FORMAT conditionals. 05:36:02 Well, grammar A, grammar B, and grammar C are disjoint grammars. 05:36:28 lisp-newbie: Then you have to do (when (parse sentence grammar-a) "the sentence...") (when (parse sentence grammar-b) "the sentence...") ... 05:36:31 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 05:36:53 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 05:36:58 lisp-newbie: In what sense? No sentence can be generated by more than one of them? 05:37:11 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-67-161-89-244.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:38:09 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:39:14 beach: Sorry, I feel like I've been unclear. I'm actually provided with 3 different grammars that consist of substitution rules and none of them are 100% complete. 05:39:41 lisp-newbie: define "complete grammar" if it is important. 05:40:04 Set of rules Sentence -> NounPhrase & VerbPhrase 05:40:25 And then a set of substitution rules from NounPhrase -> and a set from VerbPhrase. 05:40:26 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 05:40:26 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:41:01 OK, so that's a complete grammar. What does it look like when it is not complete, and is that important? 05:41:07 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:42:50 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:43:06 lisp-newbie: I am not sure what you are getting at here. Every time you try to explain some piece of terminology, you introduce more stuff containing yet more unknown pieces of terminology. 05:43:09 They grammars look relatively similar 05:43:27 The grammars look relatively similar* 05:43:32 lisp-newbie: but why is that important if you already know how to parse the sentence? 05:43:52 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 05:43:52 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:44:05 albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 05:44:15 Well, my approach was: convert the english sentence into a set of rules and see if those rules match the rules specified by a given grammar. 05:44:52 zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 05:45:00 It's very possible I'm taking the wrong approach. 05:45:25 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:45:31 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:45:37 lisp-newbie: yes, that's very possible. So now you are changing your story, and you are no longer interested in the question as to what disjoint grammars are? 05:46:22 lisp-newbie: nor what a complete grammar is? 05:47:00 Well, I suppose that is significant, my terminology must just be inadequate. 05:47:21 I am just using the terminology supplied (AI a modern approach) Problem 22.9 05:47:29 lisp-newbie: we have no way of knowing since you don't tell us what you mean by your terminology. 05:47:49 lisp-newbie: You cannot expect #lisp members to know about AI terminology. 05:48:04 *shrugs* I wasn't expecting you to -- sorry. 05:48:07 :) 05:48:14 How does all this relate to printing output? 05:49:08 lisp-newbie: but I can tell you this: Any particular sentence can be generated by a very large number of grammars (an infinite number in fact), so if you convert your sentence to a any old grammar that generates it, there is no way you are going to be able to compare it to a given grammar just by comparing the resulting rules. 05:49:09 I was just wondering if a function returns a type of "string" how to display it, and I suppose you answered that with (print "") 05:49:22 lisp-newbie: indeed. 05:50:22 Well, I'm going to try to do some revisions and read a bit (instead of wasting more of your time) 05:50:27 I really appreciate the feedback. 05:50:35 You're welcome :) 05:51:01 I'll try understand the problem a little better and get the terminology down before I ask another question. 05:51:03 Thanks again. 05:51:08 And we're quite good at wasting our own time, so thanks ;) 05:58:42 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:05:55 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 06:06:29 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:07:58 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has quit [Client Quit] 06:08:39 .j #sql 06:11:21 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 06:11:40 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:16:45 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:16:54 appletizer [i=a@82-46-60-215.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:19:07 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 06:21:26 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:22:24 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 06:25:15 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 06:34:55 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:35:39 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 06:41:02 jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 06:41:20 Anyone running sbcl or on opensolaris? 06:41:24 Praveen [n=chatzill@c-68-44-106-132.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:26 -!- jsoft_ is now known as jsoft 06:42:05 jsoft: just say what the problem is, that might draw more interest. 06:42:20 when i use gentemp the value does not change when i call a funtion repatedly 06:43:21 mogunus pasted "issues with &key and &rest" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71733 06:43:56 mogunus: &rest is supposed to go last, iirc 06:44:28 sykopomp: that gives me "execution of a form compiled with errors" 06:44:34 Oddly enough. I thought that too :\ 06:44:39 sykopomp: I need to find an sbcl package for opensolaris. 06:45:04 jsoft: best just get the tarball from the website, probably 06:45:45 mogunus: look at PCL page 58 06:45:58 sykopomp: I am 06:47:02 are you allowed combine key and res? 06:47:03 *rest 06:47:09 PCL says so 06:47:15 rsynnott: yes, but the behavior is weird 06:47:16 But I'm having issues figuring out exactly how. 06:48:12 mogunus: &rest catches everything after optional arguments, including keyword arguments. 06:48:43 pkhuong: so I need to prune those off the list? 06:49:09 you could do something like (defun issue (name (&rest sections) &key (num-value 1)) ...) 06:49:12 I think 06:49:47 Praveen: could you paste the code, a test case, the result of it, and the result you expected? 06:49:49 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:49:56 sykopomp: yuk 06:50:39 or with a macro or something >_0 06:50:49 beach: i got it ..... there was a problem with my clisp.exe file ..... i guess some memory dump problem 06:51:01 i worked fine when i restrted clisp 06:51:11 any computational chemists around? 06:51:35 mogunus: and &allow-other-keys. 06:53:04 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 06:53:40 (defmacro issue (name (&rest sections) &key (num 1)) ..) does the trick :D 06:53:46 hehehehe 06:54:41 prabu [n=prabu@117.193.197.255] has joined #lisp 06:54:51 <_3b> (name (&key (num..)...) &rest sections) would match the example usage better 06:55:28 <_3b> well, except that name is used as a keyword arg instead of required :) 06:55:30 hi anyone know the function to find the path of the loaded file in lisp 06:55:50 what loaded file? 06:56:04 say if i load a file (load "boot.lisp"); 06:56:16 from within boot.lisp how do i know the path of boot.lisp 06:57:07 Yeah, I got that wrong in the example, name is supposed to ber required... 06:57:14 *load-pathname* or *load-truename*. 06:58:29 thank, u, 06:58:38 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:00 but, how can i easily find the function what i need, without disturbing others 06:59:14 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-67-161-89-244.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:59:19 _3b: that lambda-list actually doesn't work for me, it tells me that numerical-value is a bogus sublist? 07:00:00 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:35 pkhuong:sykopomp: ??? 07:00:37 <_3b> mogunus: that was a defmacro or destructuring-bind lambdalist, not a defun lambda list 07:00:43 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 07:00:51 _3b: yes, I'm using it with defmacro? 07:01:03 <_3b> mogunus: paste your version? 07:01:27 pkhuong:sykopomp: how can i easily find the function what i need, without disturbing others 07:01:35 mogunus annotated #71733 with "with defmacro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71733#1 07:01:41 any reference material 07:03:47 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-67-161-89-244.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:04:24 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 07:04:58 Praveen_ [n=chatzill@c-68-44-106-132.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:05:10 <_3b> mogunus: seems to work here, you need to expand to code in defmacro though ( `(push ... ,name ...) or something 07:05:28 minion: tell prabu about clhs 07:05:28 prabu: direct your attention towards clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS . 07:06:37 pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 07:07:29 _3b: it tells me, having done that, that one of the (article) calls is an unknown keywork? 07:07:51 clhs allow-other-keys 07:07:51 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for allow-other-keys. 07:07:57 clhs &allow-other-keys 07:07:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm 07:08:58 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 07:09:11 <_3b> do you have a similar macro for SECTION? possibly you want to expands to (list ,@sections) in issue? 07:09:33 <_3b> and then similarly for article in section 07:09:35 _3b: section is just a function... hmm 07:09:51 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has quit [Client Quit] 07:09:52 I'm gogint to try and figure this out and maybe ask more intelligent questions in a bit. 07:09:57 <_3b> yeah, function would be OK there, if section has no keywords 07:10:12 section needs no keywords, no. 07:11:49 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:12:45 minion: thanks 07:12:45 np 07:12:56 minion: thanks 07:12:57 you're welcome 07:15:08 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 07:18:20 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:19:17 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:22:04 -!- Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:22:09 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:24 -!- Praveen [n=chatzill@c-68-44-106-132.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:22:31 _3b: is it me or is the avm2 verifier asynchronous with the rest of the VM? 07:22:41 for example 07:23:09 <_3b> wouldn't be suprised if it doesn't run until a prticular function is called 07:23:14 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:23:35 i have an applet that builds up 10MB sized string buffer by contatenating an string to it (a natural simulation of an executing lisp, imo) 07:23:41 yeah! 07:23:48 that's bloody hell what i'm talking about 07:24:02 when the verifier rejects an applet, it doesn't tell the vm 07:24:16 they just use the hardcoded 15 second time out to notify each other, wtf? 07:24:29 <_3b> i think it may just reject that function or something 07:25:02 is this to frustrate crackers? like, a more meaningful and prompt error message might motivate scripted attacks. so why not sleep and play dead? 07:25:15 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:26:16 memory allocation for 100 strings of (length "hello world") is instantaneous 07:26:17 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 07:26:26 1000 kills the player 07:26:30 fusss: what's this with? 07:27:00 rsynnott: the flash 10 debug player 07:27:16 i have far too many important tabs open in the browser to try there 07:28:32 oh, flash 07:28:53 erm, so allocating a few 10s of kb kills it? 07:29:18 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:29:19 _3b: how do you use the trace() function, if ever? right now i'm printing stuff into a TextField, which is not scrollable 07:29:25 mogunus annotated #71733 with "getting closer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71733#2 07:29:56 When I don't try to destructure, it will process the first issue correctly, but then complains about an odd number of "keywords" when there are three sections. 07:30:02 When I do try to destructure, I get that error. 07:30:10 rsynnott: it's hit or miss, depending on the mood 07:30:22 mogunus: clearly, it was not meant to be 07:30:27 <_3b> fusss: large lists of strings seem OK here, not sure how much it is coalescing them though 07:31:00 fusss: so, basically, 'managed memory, but don't you DARE try to use it'? :) 07:31:07 _3b: how are you printing stuff when the applet is running? for debugging purposes 07:31:40 <_3b> mogunus: (:numerical-value #) in the call, not just :numerical-value # 07:31:57 -!- appletizer [i=a@82-46-60-215.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:32:13 <_3b> fusss: mostly to a text box, got trace working though, just a sec 07:32:38 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 07:33:09 -!- saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 07:33:19 <_3b> fusss: you need a mm.cfg (in /Documents and Setting// for xp) containing ErrorReportingEnable=1 and TraceOutputFileEnable=1 07:35:02 <_3b> fusss: what OS are you using? 07:35:22 what the hell? 07:35:27 that bloody worked 07:35:55 I'm on XP. and it can allocated all the memory i asked for! 07:36:25 <_3b> yeah, i've been allocating 100s of MB regularly :) 07:36:31 -!- Praveen_ [n=chatzill@c-68-44-106-132.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:47 so where does the trace show up? do i have to open a log file? 07:37:03 got it! 07:37:33 <_3b> ...//Application Data/Macromedia/Flash Player/Logs/ 07:37:51 _3b: dude, this means a few things: 1) only developer machines can have unlimited memory. 2) if your lisp can't fit into "applet size", you might have to distribute it as an AIR application :-P 07:37:52 <_3b> recreates the log every time you restart player i think 07:38:11 so no tail -f for moi, no problemo 07:38:20 <_3b> tail -f works for me :p 07:40:40 <_3b> does the browser player behave differently than the debug player for memory or something? 07:41:10 btw, i found a few lisps with well documented virtual opcodes for intermediate representation; most of them were Fahlman projects :-P 07:41:23 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-7-225.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:41:33 browser just crashes 07:41:49 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:42:27 *_3b* starts up a vm with crashable browser :p 07:43:42 <_3b> hmm, doesn't print anything, but seems to work OK aside from that 07:43:50 you might enjoy two papers by Marc Feeley; for a schemer, his lisp implementations are not in continuation passing style. 07:44:03 mm... Is there a more logical choice for booleans than using only the sign bit, on x86? Sign flag ftw! 07:44:16 http://www.iro.umontreal.ca/~feeley/papers/pvm.ps.gz 07:45:18 pkhuong: x86 is all cmp/jz, sadly 07:45:31 <_3b> wonder if i tried to use flash 10 stuff or something 07:45:40 fusss: huh? 07:45:40 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:47:42 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:56 <_3b> ah, maybe it just didn't display what it printed 07:49:41 fusss: what do you mean, x86 is all cmp/jz? One could just as well do cmp/js. 07:50:20 x86 has more conditional jumps than anything 07:51:00 if you're writing assembly, or generating code, the usual way for boolean test is with the zero flag, no? 07:51:30 sign and carry are usually for over/underflow 07:53:22 more opcodes set the zero flag as side-effect than any other flag 07:53:38 <_3b> heh, it apparently broke virtualbox instead of the browser :p 07:55:20 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 07:55:38 i think intel has documents about which instructions translate to best micro-ops 07:55:39 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 07:55:55 ABCL has :external-format support now. 07:55:55 i know they did on the p3/p4 07:56:10 Agner Fog's synthesis of the various docs is best 07:56:27 ah :) 07:56:54 his text on efficient C++ is _prerequisite_ for everybody, imo. 07:57:05 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:57:13 book or url? 07:57:26 how to get the directory path of the file in "/home/prabu/boot.lisp" 07:57:40 always interested in learning more 07:57:56 haven't kept up for modern cores 07:58:11 repnop: see you in 5 years, http://www.agner.org/optimize/#manuals 07:58:22 fusss: thanks 07:58:36 zf and sf are pretty close, actually. The difference is that it seems marginally simpler to emit branch free code with SF than ZF when composing conditions together. 07:59:10 yeah? 08:00:06 how to get the directory path of the file in "/home/prabu/boot.lisp" 08:00:50 going for zero/non-zero requires SETcc/shifting/CMOVcc. With SF, even comparison for equality is 2 independent subtracts followed by an OR. 08:00:52 directory-namestring? which part of the path do you want? 08:01:45 (directory-namestring "/home/prabu/boot.lisp") ==> "/home/prabu/" 08:02:12 logical and/xor are also simpler (just the corresponding bitwise operation). 08:04:06 thanks 08:04:10 fusss: gotta say these look good thanks again for the heads up :) 08:04:25 np 08:08:01 fuss: in .net by just tying, System.IO.Path. one get all functions related to path 08:08:33 fuss: but in lisp, it seems hard to find out the function, i need, how to get rid of this. 08:08:42 fuzzy completion 08:09:30 i dont need autocompletion, but i need to find the function fast, 08:10:02 Yes. 08:10:02 this slows down my development with lisp, 08:10:27 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 08:10:32 I type path at the repl and hit tab, and I get all things somewhat "related" to path. 08:10:45 Anyone here good with CLSQL? 08:10:52 prabu: in emacs type M-x apropos RET file-stuff, and it will return all symbols related to "file-stuff" or whatever else you search for 08:11:21 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:11:23 rlpowell: I'm not good with it, but I'm using it :) 08:11:29 schme: Heh. 08:11:37 prabu: use APROPOS in lisp as well. (apropos "file") will show you all the symbols that have the string "file" in their name 08:11:45 I'm trying to figure out how to select from more than one table, which seems like it should be easy. -_- 08:11:51 hoh. 08:12:27 Naturally, I figured it out as soon as I askde. -_- 08:12:29 Nevermind. :) 08:12:55 the power of schme's telekinetic help system! 08:12:57 it would be nice if there was a decent writeup of the square bracket syntax somewhere. 08:13:01 Heh heh. 08:13:11 fusss: (apropos "FILE") (: 08:13:29 pkhuong: darnit, yes, of course 08:13:49 though the former _always_ worked for me :-) 08:13:53 rlpowell: How does one do that anyway? (select ... :from [ ???? ] ) ? 08:14:38 fusss: specified to be case insensitive, actually. 08:14:58 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:15:30 simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has joined #lisp 08:15:53 i just love it when typos crop into my lisp session over weeks and start to pollute my emacs auto-completion 08:16:10 s/crop/creep/ 08:17:27 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:17:50 schme: :from (list [t1] [t2]) 08:18:35 ooh! 08:20:06 that's beautiful... (select [c1] [c2] :from (list [t1] [t2])) 08:25:09 ugh, "merd programming laguage"! definitely not designed by a francophone 08:27:03 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:28:22 fusss: why not? libcaca seems to have been. 08:29:02 i forgot about that abomination 08:29:03 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:29:51 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:00 ejs [n=eugen@77-109-24-70.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 08:35:15 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 08:39:30 why cant we create msdn like website for lisp, 08:40:13 with the side-tree containing, lisp,libraries,etc 08:41:08 one place for all need 08:43:41 prabu: what makes you think it would not be possible? 08:44:17 i dont think it is now possible, 08:44:26 prabu: did you try? 08:44:28 but we need something like that 08:44:55 CodeWar [n=CodeWar@c-98-207-198-32.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:46:18 sorry, typo, "i dont think it is not possible" 08:47:08 prabu: so what did you mean when you said "why cant [sic] we create ..."? 08:47:38 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:47:38 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:48:00 bcoz, why still we dont have it, even after lisps over 50yrs journey 08:48:05 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 08:48:27 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:48:54 prabu: right, that must mean it isn't possible 08:48:58 -!- CodeWar [n=CodeWar@c-98-207-198-32.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:49:10 *beach* boggles when confronted with that kind of logic. 08:49:11 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:07 prabu: If you feel you need something like that, and you don't think it is impossible to do, I would say, just go ahead and do it! 08:50:18 yeah 08:50:22 prabu: or perhaps you are asking for people here in #lisp to do it for you? 08:50:42 prabu: Then I have bad news for you, because most of us are busy with more important things. 08:50:53 no, i added "we" when i ask some thing to be done 08:51:17 prabu: maybe you could try using weblocks or ucw to build a nice lisp community site 08:51:26 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 08:51:29 we could really use community builders (although I seem to be the only one that thinks so) 08:51:35 \o/ weblocks 08:51:38 prabu: the best way to gather up some excitement about things that you want people to do jointly with you, is to start by making a pretty significant chunk of it yourself, and then you show that it is useful. 08:51:54 apart from that i'm a newbie to lisp 08:51:57 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 08:52:05 prabu: those are two lisp webservers you can play with, there is also hunchentoot and allegroserv, maybe you want araneida, 08:52:06 prabu: that's how you learn, silly. 08:52:31 prabu: Oh, I get it. So you declare your incompetence with respect to doing it yourself, so that when you said "we" you really meant "someone else". 08:52:36 rlpowell: tell me about weblocks, you seem to like it 08:52:37 for a major community site, I'd say weblocks/ucw/hunchentoot are probably his best bets. 08:53:32 fusss: have you played with weblocks? I loaded it up and had some nice fun with it. I'd never played with a web framework before, though, so it was this 'oooh, ahhh' thing when webpages would magically pop up. 08:53:42 I am back with another question, if anyone has the time. I am trying to re-write a function to split a sentence into a subject and predicate (predicate always starts with verb). I would like a function called separate-np-vp to take a list of rules and split the list into two lists (np) and (vp). My current code is: http://pastebin.com/d43786a6c which is obviously not right. 08:53:52 But that's the closest I can get. 08:54:08 fusss: It's a continuation based web server. The learning curve is pretty steep, but being able to do stuff like "Here's some objects; give me the means to edit them from a web page, and use AJAX if you can" in like 3 lines of code is just amazing. 08:54:09 beach: i will try to do something. 08:54:11 sykopomp: how magically, dammit! 08:54:22 http://teddyb.org/rlp/tiki-index.php?page=Learning+About+Weblocks -- I've been writing about my learnings. 08:54:26 fusss: (weblocks-powers-activate) 08:54:28 Extremely magically, IME. 08:54:34 fusss: http://localhost:8080 08:54:38 prabu: i recommend you enjoy programming first, community organizing is pretty dull 08:54:39 FORK YEAHCR! 08:54:40 etc 08:54:56 I'd like to avoid parsing the same rule set twice -- once to get the subject and once to get the predicate. 08:55:32 sykopomp: i visisted that "localhost" url, you dirty dirty man! MEIN EYES! 08:55:50 fusss: hahahahaha 08:55:51 fusss: Depends on the person. 08:56:16 lisp-newbie: honestly, the problem at the scale you have it is something you should figure out yourself 08:56:31 which is better to host huge sites like msdn: ucw / weblock / hunchen 08:56:32 lisp-newbie: or read about elsewhere (there's stuff about NLP parsing all over the nets, and you can at least find examples) 08:56:39 Well, I'm willing to re-write that in full. 08:56:56 My question specifically is how to create a function that results in two lists. 08:57:03 prabu: Those are all pretty good frameworks, and they can all scale well, from what I have read. 08:57:13 ucw is probably the less stable, since it's newer (I think) 08:57:21 but I think it's also one of the fancier ones 08:57:49 wht about weblock 08:57:51 Should I just return a list of two lists? ((np)(vp)) 08:58:14 prabu: I had fun playing with weblocks. Try it out! 08:58:30 And just take the car and cdr to get the lists individually. 08:58:41 prabu: hunchentoot is more of a server + stuff than a full-fledged framework, but there's things that use it (and nice tools for it, it seems) 08:59:13 lisp-newbie: do you know about syntax trees, and parsing language at all? 08:59:27 sykopomp: Yes. 09:00:26 As my username suggests, I believe my problem is more Lisp oriented than it is an NLP problem. 09:01:00 in pascal costanza's success story i read that they used around 10 nodes with 3gb each to serve just 300 people at a time online. Is is really necessary to have that much nodes? 09:01:19 it doesn't sound like a lisp-related problem 09:02:24 Anyone awake who was in the Lisp-rot discussion about 11 hours ago? (anything interested came out?) 09:02:47 tic: lisp-rot? There were a couple of negative lisp talks today. 09:02:50 and one visit by GNAA 09:03:27 lisp-newbie: i'm looking at your problem 09:03:28 sykopomp, negitive lisp talks? 09:03:53 simplechat: 'lisp sucks because x y z' stuff 09:04:02 sykopomp: ???? 09:04:07 The real problem is I have a function whose purpose is to split a list of rules into two lists... I have another function (of arity 2) that requires these two lists. I'm not sure what Lisp conventions are available to return two lists from a function. 09:04:20 sykopomp, the one "initiated" by tcr re. extending the language and batteries included. 09:04:20 prabu: I don't know :) Web programming is a tricky thing. 09:04:23 Or whether I should just return ((ruleset1)(ruleset2)) 09:04:25 sykopomp, ouch, what did they end up saying? 09:04:38 simplechat: check the logs, I guess 09:04:43 lisp-newbie, list of lists, or (values first-values second-values) 09:04:43 I wasn't here for all of it 09:04:49 I went and read PCL a second time 09:04:51 >_> 09:04:53 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 09:05:07 I see, thanks tic. 09:05:25 lisp-newbie, if you only sometimes will need the second value, you can use VALUES; if you use a list, you'll need to manually unpack it. 09:05:35 sykopomp, logs? 09:05:40 minion, logs 09:05:41 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 09:06:00 (I think nef's logs are actually up again. how do we teach minion that?) 09:06:04 (funnily enough, I think ccl-logbot was offline for at least part of the neg-talk) 09:06:05 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 09:06:12 Ah. 09:06:22 I understand, thanks tic. 09:06:32 I don't know. I remember it entering the channel at the end of the discussion 09:06:38 tic, i thought this was an actual talk? 09:06:44 kk 09:07:11 prabu: given that it's some sort of financial planning thing, it's probably doing something more complicated for those 300 users than just taking data entry 09:07:57 simplechat: just a #lisp discussion, don't fret 09:08:06 *rsynnott* manages rather than that with two dual netburst xeon machines :) 09:08:29 oh! 09:09:40 Does elisp have a "member" function or should I write one recursively? 09:09:48 rsynnot: for sites like wiki ? 09:10:01 nah, a webgame 09:10:34 lisp-newbie, I think emacs has a CL package you can load. (generally, though, the Common in #lisp is silent, so you'll have better luck with either google or #emacs) 09:11:06 Ah. 09:11:24 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:11:44 lisp-newbie: if you have time read the Gentle Intro Book 09:12:00 oh! they're actually using their own webserver too! 09:12:02 it has recursion patterns 09:12:45 Well, it's easier enough to write. I was just wondering what primitives different implementations had. 09:13:30 I am still new to the language -- been trying to read practical common list (giggamonkeys). 09:13:38 did any one looked into project of TZN in GetAFreeLancer.com 09:13:39 Lisp* sorry. 09:14:14 I'll see if I can find a copy of the "Gentle Intro Book" though. 09:14:37 lisp-newbie: I think the author makes it free on th'internet 09:15:03 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/People/dst/LispBook/book.pdf 09:15:37 Wonderful. 09:15:40 Thank you kindly. 09:16:38 hi, anyone worked on project GetAFreelancer.com project posted by TZN 09:18:07 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 09:19:12 lisp-newbie: typically, in Lisp one uses keywords like :verb instead of strings like "verb" 09:20:02 brb 09:20:13 prabu: goodness! They want very clever lisp programmers for sub-minimum-wage! What could go wrong? 09:21:08 sub-minimum-wage means very less wage? 09:23:11 well, they're paying 7.50 - 11 US dollars per month, which is less than minimum age in this country, even before you take extra taxes for working as a freelancer into account 09:23:17 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:23:29 fusss: keywords? 09:23:31 fusss, "verb" is a symbol designator. ;) 09:23:50 lisp-newbie, :FOO is the symbol FOO interned in the KEYWORD package. 09:23:51 might make more sense for someone in a lower-cost-of-living country 09:23:54 tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 09:24:06 but still, absurd considering their lofty demands 09:24:17 Oh, I see. 09:24:32 Ah, memberp to see if an atom is a member of a list. 09:24:41 Right after I wrote the function, how convenient -.- 09:24:49 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 09:25:06 I'll read into the KEYWORD package -- thanks fusss and tic. 09:25:11 i cant understand economics, people live in very developed country could not even survive with less income! 09:25:20 hoh. 09:25:24 per hour surely? 09:25:25 lisp-newbie, you might want to read Practical Common Lisp, unless you already haven't. (freely available online) 09:26:42 Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 09:26:52 tic: I've been reading it, actually. Not all that far yet. I've been finding it a lot more challenging to think of problems in a lisp style than actually understanding the code when I see it. 09:27:00 sorry, per hour of course 09:27:46 lisp-newbie, Lisp style is really arbitrary style; CL is multiparadigm. You can write it in a mostly-functional style (like Scheme), but you can also write it like you would in C with a lot of state. 09:27:49 Especially considering the paradigm shift, many components are implemented differently and I haven't quite become accustomed to the language. 09:27:59 -!- PanGoat [n=PanGoat@node2.sensoryresearch.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:28:42 Sure, I've been reading into the abilities of Lisps a lot lately -- including clojure, CL, SBCL, elisp, etc. 09:28:49 lisp-newbie, I think a good idea, though, is to write as much code as possible in a side-effect free manner, and use state when you have to. (most often, you don't have to keep values around conditionals evaluate to values, e.g. if, when, cond, ...) 09:29:10 lisp-newbie, SBCL is an implementation of the language standard Common Lisp (CL). There are other compilers for CL too. (just to clarify) 09:29:14 I probably know more about the language's capabilities than how to code in the language -- I suppose it will just take time for me to get familiar. 09:29:17 PanGoat [n=PanGoat@node2.sensoryresearch.net] has joined #lisp 09:29:38 jewel [n=jewel@41.247.199.108] has joined #lisp 09:29:45 tic: I see, interesting to know. And thank you for correcting me. 09:29:51 lisp-newbie: might take a few weeks, maybe a month or two 09:30:03 but you'll have little nirvanas along the way, most likely 09:30:12 I had a few of my own 09:30:19 sykopomp: Been experiencing them. My first macro was a big step. 09:30:31 Nearly wet my pants. 09:30:51 ewh 09:31:48 tns [n=mehdi@put92-6-88-165-36-162.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:48 weblock says it is continouation based. what is continuation, 09:32:44 prabu: probably not something you want to mess around with just yet. 09:32:52 prabu: continuations are like closures, but for the call stack 09:33:12 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:33:28 -!- te_ is now known as defn 09:33:43 do macros behave differently on the repl than in compiled programs? 09:33:44 oh!, creating new callstack for a particular call 09:34:04 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:05 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:34:07 multiple callstacks 09:34:26 prabu: preserving the state of the stack at one point, and calling it again elsewhere 09:34:27 more like 09:34:28 I think 09:34:35 continuations are still a bit fuzzy in my head 09:34:44 how this will help in web prog.... 09:34:50 <_3b> koning_r1bot: macros usually don't exist in compiled programs, since they are expanded during compilation 09:35:06 prabu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Continuations 09:35:28 koning_r1bot, try (macroexpand-1 '(your-macro with some parameters)) at the REPL. 09:35:36 -!- tns [n=mehdi@put92-6-88-165-36-162.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:36:23 tns [n=mehdi@put92-6-88-165-36-162.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:38 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:40 continuations aren't supported in lisp 09:38:36 sykopomp: will this dont lead to high use of memory, 09:39:09 prabu: premature optimization is the root of all sin 09:39:14 and memory is bountiful 09:39:19 use it, for that's what it's there for 09:39:21 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:39:29 and if you're running short, ram is cehap 09:39:30 cheap* 09:39:35 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 09:39:40 ok.. that clears things up... just to be sure, what happens when i pass a backquote-constructed list to a macro? is the backquoting stuff done first or does it just get passed to the macro? 09:39:44 programmer time, on the other hand, is quite expensive (by anyone's measure) 09:46:26 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:46:56 good night, #lisp 09:47:06 good night moon 09:47:07 Night. 09:47:17 Thanks again for the help. 09:47:36 help yourself more 09:47:43 I shall try. 09:49:23 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 09:51:04 koning_r1bot, the standard evaluation rules still apply. ` is like ', but with an escape (the comma) to explicitly evaluate certain arguments. 09:53:02 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 09:53:28 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16920C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:55:39 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:57:17 wow. that getafreelancer job seems really really bad. 09:58:42 this might sound rude, but think we should not assume every lisp newbie is a "kid". i think we, at least *I*, take a condescending tone towards newcomers who might just be accomplished programmers coming from other communities 10:00:08 the typical newcomer is not a complete idiot; it's often someone who cares about the art enough to seek alternative/better approaches 10:01:15 right 10:01:24 Ron Garret has said it nicely: 10:03:53 something like: only because we are better programmers, there is no reason to be arrogant 10:05:29 josemanuel [n=josemanu@12.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:05:37 sure, but there are plenty of other reasons to be less than friendly, for instance when people make random false statements, or when they demand help but don't bother explaining what the problem is, or when they ask for advice and then reject the advice they get. 10:06:09 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 10:07:06 before he found lisp, Kaz was one of the most knowledgeable people about C in clc. there are many other kazes from other languages amidst us, some coming for the first time and getting told to buzz off 10:07:57 tell him 10:08:39 beach: yes, you're right, i'm sure you we've all developed that "turd-dar". you can usually tell by the type of the questions they pose 10:09:03 fusss: I think it is pretty easy to tell right away when a person has the potential to become a contributor and when it is someone who is more likely to harass us pretty much forever. 10:09:39 aka-aka [n=aka_aka@gate3.tomo-labo.com] has joined #lisp 10:10:33 plus, even if one gets it wrong from time to time, people who are told to buzz off usually don't. 10:10:54 "memory is bountiful". Tell that to my sbcl that dies off from heap getting filled up :) 10:11:47 -!- aka-aka [n=aka_aka@gate3.tomo-labo.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:12:14 aka-aka [i=dba322f1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c8fe5202d24ead1b] has joined #lisp 10:12:30 beach: language issues i understand one shouldn't demand quick answers. but i'm willing to bend backwards to help someone with slime or emacs. I am learning flash right now and god knows i sound like a troll in the flash rooms. 10:13:21 Does climacs have something like dired-mode? 10:13:33 mogunus: No. 10:13:39 none of my questions are language related; just environment, compiler, etc. it could feel weird coming to a new environment, which is touted as many people as "great", just to find yourself unable to crack it. 10:14:07 Nigbot [i=Chimpout@ip72-207-20-159.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:18 mogunus: No, and the idea is to avoid making Climacs the substrate of all possible GUI applications, and instead use CLIM itself. 10:14:31 mogunus: maybe http://common-lisp.net/project/ftd/ will be helpful though. 10:15:14 beach: so the idea would be, write a different CLIM app using whatever buffer stuff you need from CLIM, and have CLIM launch that app? 10:15:21 Tired of nigggerrrss? Are you aware that all other races are descended from extraterrestrials that populated central asia while NEGROIDS actually evolved in Africa from apes? Then join us at http://www.chimpout.com Chimpout.com welcomes Asians, Whites, mexicans, Jews, ets......but no niiigggerrrs!!! 10:15:30 mogunus: yes. 10:15:54 schme, huge object dangling in *, ** or ***? 10:16:09 (I am trying out climacs for the first time, it seems pretty cool) 10:16:10 tic: Hmmm? 10:16:21 schme, re: your heap exhaustion. 10:16:25 oh! 10:16:26 -!- Nigbot [i=Chimpout@ip72-207-20-159.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Killed by DLange ()] 10:16:30 mogunus: It's not perfect, but it is pretty good, yes. 10:16:42 Nigbot [i=Chimpout@ip72-207-20-159.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:48 (this is because I am too sleepy to continue working on my stupid website). How do I get images into buffers, like in the screenshots? 10:17:59 tic: (select [foo]) which created an object or two too many 10:18:12 -!- Nigbot [i=Chimpout@ip72-207-20-159.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [K-lined] 10:18:33 schme, ouch. 10:18:51 Is there anything in CL that says fixnums that are = are EQ? 10:19:08 Yeees. For once I am happy I am on 32bit linux, or maybe I would have had enough free mem and not notice it was not a good thing to do :) 10:19:20 Wouldn't that be weird, Piranha__? 10:19:43 <_3b> Piranha__: they are allowed to not be EQ, but must be EQL 10:19:45 How do I try out the gtkairo backend with climacs? 10:20:02 I want to use COND as one might use switch, with a fixnum key. I know that equal-value fixnums are typically EQ, but I wouldn't be able to sleep at night knowing it's not correct CL. 10:20:26 _3b: Okay. I read as much in CLHS:EQ. 10:20:45 switch? 10:20:50 And when I said "typically," I meant "typically with most CL implementations." 10:20:53 mogunus: There should be a mcclim-gtcairo ASDF system or something like that. 10:20:55 schme: C's switch. 10:21:11 Oh, and s/COND/CASE/. Argh. 10:21:13 Piranha__: I'm thinking maybe you want one of the case 10:21:15 Nigbot lol 10:21:19 ah 10:21:30 I find (cond ((= x 0) ...) ((= x 1) ...) ...) to be verbose. 10:21:43 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 10:21:43 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:21:53 But if that's as idiomatic as I can get while still being correct, then so be it. 10:22:12 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:22:20 Piranha__: why is it that you don't want to use case? 10:22:53 <_3b> hmm, does case not specify what test it uses? 10:22:53 Does closure with the gtkairo backend always flicker when you scroll, or is something really wrong with my computer? 10:22:59 Is there some grabbag utility library that implements CASE/ECASE/etc with an argument for specifying the test (rather than being hard-coded to #'EQ)? 10:23:06 tcr [n=tcr@p4FD3DE26.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:23:06 _3b: You can't. 10:23:36 <_3b> Piranha__: in the spec i mean... it doesn't say EQ, or EQL, just 'identity' 10:23:55 What's wrong with case anyway? 10:24:00 Piranha__: CASE uses EQL. 10:24:03 beach: Because the values I'm testing are fixnums. They're actually integers in [0,6), so I know they'll be fixnums. Typically that will work, but CL says that two equal-value numbers may in fact not be EQ. 10:24:07 replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-184-30.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:24:17 I always took "identical" to mean "tests true with EQ". 10:24:23 The concept of object-identity. 10:24:26 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:24:35 Hello, everyone. How do I use own-defenied functions in a cl-ncurses function? 10:24:40 mogunus: You would have to ask lichtblau. I think there might have been some bitrot in there. 10:25:17 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:25:49 there is a lisp library with a CASE-like construct with user defined equality test. Was it Arnesi? Alexanderia? clocc? i forgot 10:25:53 beach: I see that now, reading the definition of "same" in the glossary. 10:26:01 Thanks. 10:26:02 beach: I will then. I'd be willing to help muck that out. Other than the flickering it, renders very nicely. 10:26:12 <_8david> mogunus: flicker in gtkairo can be more noticeable because the cairo medium is a litlte slower. 10:26:13 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:26:52 <_8david> mogunus: So far, it has always been good enough for me to enable double buffering in the application. That solves the flickering and also hides the slowness to some extent. 10:27:03 <_8david> mogunus: Not sure why double buffering isn't enabled in closure. 10:27:08 Just get "Error: attempt to call `CL-NCURSES::BOARD-SIZE' which is an undefined function" I would like to use something like OWN::BOARD-SIZE. 10:27:13 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:19 simonb: how are you using a cl-ncurses function now? 10:27:27 _8david: ah, okay, thanks. how do I turn on double buffering? 10:27:33 _8david: double-buffering is an extension that I invented for Gsharp, after Closure was written. 10:27:51 fusss: (cl-ncurses::print-board-curses) 10:27:55 <_8david> (Since images are unsupported in gtkairo, I'm never bothered to fix other issues.) 10:28:03 fusss: Like that. 10:28:33 simonb: did you define print-board-curses? that's not an standard curses function 10:28:34 mogunus: if it is mostly character font rendering you are interested in, you could try the mcclim-truetype backend as well. 10:28:39 <_8david> mogunus: find the place where the pane is created in closure source code and add :double-buffering t 10:29:25 fusss: Yes, I defined it myself. 10:29:39 beach: yeah, I mostly care about donts. 10:29:41 fusss: And its working just fine. 10:29:48 apparently I lack cl-aa 10:30:35 simonb: that doesn't look right. 10:30:36 But when I try to call an own defined "normal" function I get that error. 10:31:40 What doesn't look right? 10:31:50 simonb: I am guessing a package problem here. 10:31:55 simonb: how did your function print-board-curses end up in the cl-ncurses package? 10:33:36 -!- prabu [n=prabu@117.193.197.255] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:33:55 the cl-ncurses directory has some tests you can look at. they're pretty straight forward. 10:34:04 fusss: Well, I just modified a sample-function that came with cl-ncurses. 10:34:04 post your code if you want more help 10:35:19 if you want to call curses functions you either need: 1) to USE-PACKAGE :cl-ncurses, or 2) prefix all curses calls like (cl-ncurses:flash) for exported symbols 10:35:28 which test is that? 10:35:55 fusss: Here is the function: 10:35:56 http://paste.simonb.se/?source=LISP_1228646102slVV93 10:36:38 like beach said, package problem 10:37:00 you can't define your functions in the curses package. see line #7 10:37:17 reload your, reload cl-ncurses with asdf and then at the top of your file put (defpackage :curses-user (:use :cl-ncurses)) (in-package :curses-user) 10:38:42 I will test it. See if I get everything right. 10:38:51 Thanks! 10:38:51 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.130.44] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:39:52 fusss pasted "curses file" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71746 10:40:20 you don't have to define a package, you can test everything in the repl if you just USE-PACKAGE 10:40:37 Ah. 10:40:49 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.130.44] has joined #lisp 10:40:49 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:41:12 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:19 but curses will clobber your terminal and doesn't play nice in an emacs buffer. fire from a standlone xterm with no emacs. 10:41:23 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-7-225.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:42:37 fusss: Yepp, I use an standalone xterm at the moment. 10:43:21 curses was the first ffi i did in lisp. it and stdwin, from Borland :-) 10:44:05 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:46:52 Ah, nice :) We are making an Othello game at school, and I would love to make it little more gui-like than everyone else. 10:47:59 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:49:11 minion: tell simonb about McCLIM 10:49:14 simonb: have a look at McCLIM: McCLIM is Mike McDonald's Free and portable implementation of CLIM, the Common Lisp ueber-Graphics Toolkit and a Common Lisp Library. http://www.cliki.net/McCLIM 10:49:19 waterh [i=3ba24401@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-31cc31ccf55abd22] has joined #lisp 10:50:43 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:52:51 That's the most used GUI-Goolkit in lisp? 10:53:27 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp373.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 10:54:20 leadnose [i=leadnose@xob.kapsi.fi] has joined #lisp 10:55:18 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:55:33 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 10:57:51 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:00:03 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:02:43 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 11:02:43 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:04:13 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:19 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:05:20 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:07:58 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16920C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:08:26 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-076-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@77-109-24-70.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:08:43 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a6a-153.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:09:12 I hate this new gnome-screensaver replacement for xscreensaver. 11:11:24 anything in particular? 11:17:16 simonb: It's pretty much the only "native" one. 11:17:55 crod [n=cmell@d28851-109.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:17:58 beach: I see. 11:18:49 simonb: it would be ideal for something like an othello game, but it might take you a while to learn it. What is your data structure for the board? 11:19:25 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:55 prabu [n=prabu@117.193.197.255] has joined #lisp 11:21:39 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.235.152] has joined #lisp 11:21:46 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 11:22:09 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 11:23:23 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.247.199.108] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:25:33 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Client Quit] 11:33:58 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 11:39:09 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5ad859a5.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 11:39:27 -!- prabu [n=prabu@117.193.197.255] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:40:56 prabu [n=prabu@117.193.197.255] has joined #lisp 11:41:14 user___ [n=user@p549278E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:49:39 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.95.92] has joined #lisp 11:51:25 -!- prabu [n=prabu@117.193.197.255] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:53:30 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:54:51 jestocost [n=cmell@d28851-109.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:55:28 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@12.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 11:56:32 -!- crod [n=cmell@d28851-109.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:00:20 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:01:05 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:01:12 besiria [n=user@ppp083212085113.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 12:01:25 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5edd.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 12:01:50 what is the diff between packages and modules? 12:02:14 There is no module 12:02:19 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:02:28 -!- waterh [i=3ba24401@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-31cc31ccf55abd22] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 12:02:42 See http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf 12:07:20 tic: actually there is; see REQUIRE :-) 12:13:46 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 12:15:26 tic: oh nice, now i get packages 12:15:39 but modules? or shouldn't i be bothered 12:15:57 kpreid, oh? I will, thanks! 12:17:14 besiria, modules are deprecated, if I understand the spec correctyl. 12:17:42 besiria, and even if I don't, you don't have to bother with modules. 12:18:10 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:18:18 tic: ok 12:19:52 -!- leadnose [i=leadnose@xob.kapsi.fi] has left #lisp 12:20:04 i was used to doing (require 'hunchentoot) alot , but now i think this is wrong? 12:20:41 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:22:23 Yeah, (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :hunchentooth) 12:22:51 but (require 'foo) happens to work in SBCL, I think there's some magic going on there. 12:22:54 user pasted "hmm, what is this? ignoring path?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71747 12:22:55 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:24:13 is there sth different between :foo and 'foo ? 12:24:28 this is a fresh clbuild checkout with sbcl and now slime checkedout 12:24:39 they're both symbol, but :foo is interned in the KEYWORD package, and 'foo is interned in your current package, i.e. *package* 12:24:49 (by default CL-USER, alias for COMMON-LISP-USER) 12:25:33 besiria, the advantage of using :foo is that you can compare them for equality regardless of your current package, for e.g. parameters to functions. 12:27:03 tic: i got it thx 12:28:16 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 12:28:42 Especially the symbols-as-parameters has bitten me. Was using a function from another package, and when I sent in 'foo to it, the function compared my 'foo, e.g. CL-USER:FOO to its own foo, e.g. SOME-APP:FOO, which obviously were't the same. 12:29:32 (but I don't really know the ultimate reason one'd want to use 'foo instead of :foo, I'm just guessing) 12:33:32 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.95.92] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:35:02 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 12:35:22 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:37:25 pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:37:48 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:41:22 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Client Quit] 12:41:53 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:43:51 use 'foo instead of :foo in what context? 12:44:42 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4eac.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 12:44:47 lisp is an insanely cool language :) 12:44:58 the only issue is that it has some wierd anacronisms, but meh :) 12:45:06 its what i've always wanted from python :) 12:45:17 what anachronisms? 12:46:36 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:48:26 -!- segv_ is now known as segv 12:49:32 -!- borism__ [n=boris@195-50-204-196-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:49:55 -!- mcxx [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:49:59 mcxx [n=mcxx@213.151.89.55] has joined #lisp 12:53:42 i was just trying (:use 'cl 'cl-user) which is wrong, i should be using :cl . i always thought that 'foo and :foo were the same (plain symbols) and now i know about equality 12:56:46 even 'foo and 'foo are not necessarily the same, it depends on the value of *package* the textual string "'foo" was read 12:56:57 clbuild:register_other_asd could be broken (doesnt seem to work for uffi) 12:56:59 at the time the textual string "'foo" was read 12:58:34 but are :foo and :foo always the same? 12:59:07 besiria: and (:use 'cl 'cl-user) should also work because not symbols name packages but string designators 12:59:08 unless someone altered the read table, :foo should always be a symbol interned in the KEYWORD package, no? 12:59:18 koning_r1bot: yes 12:59:38 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has left #lisp 12:59:53 besiria: I'm sorry I meant (:use cl cl-user), the problem is the QUOTE 13:01:09 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:01:21 tcr, all of the side effects are a bit offputting 13:01:35 do people find that nighttime is a good time for lisp coding? 13:01:41 and the four different types of equal 13:01:44 is a little odd 13:01:48 but overall its cool :) 13:01:56 just wish i could get an ide working 13:02:00 any suggestions? 13:02:03 emacs 13:02:03 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5edd.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:02:07 atm i'm on fedora 13:02:07 simplechat: Common Lisp is not a functional programming language. You may want to take look at Clojure instead, which is very functionally oriented. 13:02:30 Or you could theoretically just not use functions with side effects 13:02:35 tcr, yeah, its just that things like loop/return just seem odd 13:02:38 simplechat: there's SLIME (superior lisp interaction mode for emacs) 13:02:45 relying on the side effect from running return to stop loop 13:03:03 simplechat: I don't know what you're referring to 13:03:20 simplechat: return is a special form, not a function 13:03:20 tcr, don't you stop the loop macro with return? 13:03:28 yeah 13:03:31 simplechat: Rarely 13:03:44 dlowe, special forms are nice and all 13:03:48 i think its because i'm not used to it 13:03:56 (loop for x from 0 to 10 collect (* x x)), no RETURN in there 13:04:04 or having print & the rest print and return 13:04:14 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 13:04:21 it seems to happen with io functions though 13:04:23 tcr, yeah 13:04:34 its a beutiful language, isn't it? 13:04:34 :) 13:05:20 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:05:23 simplechat: Everything is an expression in Lisp, there are no statements, so IO functions must return something. 13:07:05 yeah, its odd that there arn't fp objects or anything similar though. but meh 13:07:09 locklace pasted "transient sbcl 1.0.23 error on eval of compiled function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71748 13:07:22 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5ad859a5.bb.sky.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07:23 like i know theres format to standard-output, which seems similar 13:07:32 fo objects? 13:07:37 file pointers? 13:07:45 like open("filename") in python 13:07:51 so you can .read(), .write(), etc. 13:07:52 simplechat: you mean like (open "filename")? 13:08:03 any thoughts on this error? it's transient in the sense that it goes away if i add a "format" in the middle of the function to print out some info, and then stays gone even after i remove the format 13:08:13 dlowe, hmmm. what does that return though? 13:08:21 simplechat: a stream 13:08:21 simplechat: a file stream :p 13:08:25 ah, cool :) 13:08:43 simplechat: perhaps you should read some before brandishing your assumptions :) 13:08:45 (defvar *test* (open "test")) should work? 13:08:51 that's right. 13:09:00 dlowe, i'm not brandishing assumptions, i'm just saying what i'm thinking as i'm learning :) 13:09:01 with-open-file is usually better, though 13:09:07 locklace: what's the function? 13:09:38 dlowe, is there any way to work out what a particular variable is? (the sexpression of it?) 13:09:51 something akin to dir() in python? 13:09:54 tcr: well, it's kind of complicated at the moment, i don't have a minimal example yet. mainly wanted to see if this rings any bells of known issues 13:10:08 simplechat: you mean like eval? 13:10:19 ooh, thats cool 13:10:34 simplechat: right. forget I mentioned eval 13:10:49 simplechat: yeah, you can iterate over the symbols interned in a package 13:10:52 yeah, going from sexpression to sexpression isn't really that nice 13:11:06 kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:13 like say in the #stream/etc. can i iterate over its symbols? 13:11:13 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:11:40 you're confused 13:11:45 very confused. 13:11:48 time to read more 13:11:59 yeah, i guess 13:12:06 its midnight though :) so i guess that'll be tomorrow :) 13:12:35 dlowe, tcr thanks for the help :) 13:13:09 i'd be happy to chalk it up to something i'm doing wrong, except for the part about "adding a format in the middle and then removing it again makes the error go away" 13:14:10 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:14:29 oh, actually that's not it! 13:15:08 it's that compiling the defun alone makes the problem go away, but compiling it as part of compile-file yields the problem 13:15:25 locklace, would you mind sharing the code? 13:15:40 what is a sexpression and does it exist in other languages 13:16:22 banisterfiend, a sexpression is an abstract parse tree in text form and exists, but not in the lispish form in other languages. (typically used as an alternative to xml in file formats) 13:16:56 cool thanks 13:17:47 ok, it's because of a safety declaration. probably my fault somewhere 13:17:55 simplechat: how do i learn about parsetrees and parsing etc, what do you recommend, any sites or books? (for a noob, nothing too tech :( ) 13:19:52 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-11365: SIGINT received; exit"] 13:20:11 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:20:19 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:23:47 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16920C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:23:55 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 13:24:49 banisterfiend: PAIP has a section on it, also I wrote a crappy parser http://kzar.co.uk/blog/?p=11 a while ago if you want to look how it works. 13:25:08 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 13:25:12 -!- fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has left #lisp 13:25:23 nice 13:25:25 what is PAIP? 13:25:30 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-11365: SIGINT received; exit"] 13:25:46 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:26:18 banisterfiend: http://norvig.com/paip.html 13:26:24 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:26:33 thanks (and im reading your blog entry) 13:27:55 banisterfiend: (you might want to take how I did it with a pinch of salt, I just read the wikipedia article on parsing, asked a lot of questions in here and kind of cobbled it together!) 13:28:06 -!- tcr [n=tcr@p4FD3DE26.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:30:13 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 13:30:37 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:31:18 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 13:31:23 haqe43 [n=lucius@host81-154-39-217.range81-154.btcentralplus.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:38 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has left #lisp 13:37:05 jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 13:37:43 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.235.152] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 13:37:46 Hi, SBCL license question 13:38:00 usually we call them s-expressions :p 13:38:19 s-exp and s-expr for short 13:38:39 I understand that if you use SBCL's socket code that you are bound by the SBCL liscense? 13:39:06 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.235.152] has joined #lisp 13:39:30 jbjohns: that mostly amounts to keeping copyright notices 13:39:46 ah, yes. I just noticed that I don't see GPL anywhere 13:39:49 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 13:40:11 banisterfiend, theres quite a few nice tutorials on it. Have a look at the "lets make a compiler" series 13:40:17 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-11365: SIGINT received; exit"] 13:40:34 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:40:44 that makes my question a bit less pressing. I'm planning on possibly making some networking software, but I would need some platform neutral (at least in theory) socket code. I was afraid if I wrote a platform layer that it would get infectd and infect everything that used it 13:40:55 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:26 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@d28851-109.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:41:58 jestocost [n=cmell@cad439-166.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:42:02 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 13:42:35 malu__ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4eac.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 13:47:39 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-11365: SIGINT received; exit"] 13:47:52 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 13:47:54 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:48:11 <_8david> user___: looks like debugging output to me. Feel free to ping Daniel on clbuild-devel about it. 13:48:23 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:31 _8david: congratulations on the release 13:50:56 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 13:51:12 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:53:00 (what was released?) 13:54:27 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4eac.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:55:26 nvteighen [n=nvteighe@207.Red-81-37-139.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:33 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@207.Red-81-37-139.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 13:59:00 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-11365: SIGINT received; exit"] 13:59:15 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:59:28 tic: XPath implementation on cxml. 14:01:26 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.95.92] has joined #lisp 14:01:41 besiria` [n=user@ppp083212085113.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 14:02:12 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212085113.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:02:23 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 14:02:39 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:05:56 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 14:06:12 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:09:15 _8david: ok, thanks, writing to list concerning register_other_asd could be broken (doesnt seem to work for uffi) 14:09:20 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0BDA.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:11:12 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-11365: SIGINT received; exit"] 14:11:27 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:12:28 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 14:13:04 -!- simplechat [n=simplech@unaffiliated/simplechat] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:14:01 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177124252.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:14:12 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:17:04 prabu [n=prabu@117.193.197.255] has joined #lisp 14:17:14 benny [n=benny@i577A2869.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:17:47 why weblocks demo application is damn slow!!! 14:18:07 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Tiarra 0.1+svn-11365: SIGINT received; exit"] 14:18:35 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:18:49 why weblocks demo application is damn slow!!! is the framework itself is slow or any other problem 14:19:55 how am i supposed to close a socket-stream in sbcl? the documentation for socket-close says: "If socket-make-stream has been called, calls close on that stream instead.", but using socket-close throws an error ("no applicable method for generic function..."), and using close doesn't actually close the socket (i.e., it still shows up in netstat) 14:22:29 koning_r1bot: socket-close is meant to be called on the socket. 14:23:40 i was afraid so 14:24:22 mulligan [n=user@e178046056.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 14:24:33 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-076-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:25:06 milanj- [n=milan@77.46.251.3] has joined #lisp 14:25:55 if you got a stream out of the socket, closing *the stream* should close the socket. 14:29:27 -!- _8david [n=user@pD954103A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:30:48 -!- replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-184-30.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:32:15 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:33:46 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 14:35:18 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.251.3] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:37:14 -!- ltbarcly_ is now known as ltbarcly 14:42:57 slyrus: you have a citations in the 2008 proceedings in Computational Statistics (: 14:44:49 god damnit I hate drupal 14:45:47 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:58 "Let's do everything another new way which is different to how everything else works but just as broken" 14:47:24 x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 14:49:10 They didn't think of crazy edge cases to their form API like a form element having a onClick javascript action.. 14:49:32 kzar: I don't know if you're going to get a lot of sympathy here. 14:49:47 ahaas: Heh I know but, had to vent... sorry 14:49:57 -!- milanj- [n=milan@77.46.251.3] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:49:58 weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:50:08 oh hai 14:50:12 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:52:18 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:56:10 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cad439-166.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:48 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:58 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a16-236.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:58:41 ejs1 [n=eugen@92-49-224-119.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 15:00:33 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:01:04 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:01:28 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.235.152] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:02:29 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2869.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:04:30 lispm [n=joswig@e177155062.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:04:59 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska161231.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 15:05:01 I guess lots of people are reading the SLIME presentation by tcr ;-) 15:05:10 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has left #lisp 15:05:52 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 15:06:45 -!- weirdo is now known as people 15:06:48 *people* are reading 15:06:50 -!- people is now known as weirdo 15:06:56 :-) 15:07:05 that's good 'people'! 15:07:12 nice frame recompile bit 15:07:24 evenin' 15:07:30 hiya 15:10:00 How's code? 15:11:01 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 15:22:14 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:23:10 pkhuong: cool! thanks! 15:25:20 (for rsbcl) pretty cute. 15:26:19 -!- x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:26:59 why weblocks demo application is damn slow!!! is the framework itself is slow or any other problem 15:27:00 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:27:15 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:27:55 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 15:29:04 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:29:09 prabu: apparently no-one is interested in you. Perhaps you should find out for yourself, or ask in a different forum 15:29:31 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:29:49 kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:13 benny [n=benny@i577A2869.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:30:15 nicely put, as always. 15:31:13 -!- prabu [n=prabu@117.193.197.255] has left #lisp 15:32:46 prabu [n=prabu@117.193.197.255] has joined #lisp 15:40:20 prabu: My experience with weblocks was not one that it was damn slow, so I assume it is some other problem. 15:42:15 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-162-9.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:19 ditto. Seemed fine here speed-wise. 15:45:47 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-245-231.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:45:54 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-245-231.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:30 prabu: Maybe you are running them on a really slow machine. 15:47:15 schme: i'm accessing the online version 15:51:10 prabu: weblocks not slow. except for initial download of prototype and other JS there is minimal traffic. wither the host machine is slow your your connection is slow. 15:51:17 either/wither 15:51:57 persi: it sounds like he's just accessing an impossibly slow demo 15:52:20 sykopomp: yep. 15:52:45 http://weblocks.viridian-project.de/weblocks-demo 15:53:14 yup, just as I thought. 15:54:06 prabu: not slow here. must be your connection. 15:55:29 prabu: granted there are a rediculous number of little icons being downloaded, so any latency will bog it down on an initial load. 15:56:35 If anyone here is working on the weblocks code, you can combine all those icons into a single image and just use css to show parts. 15:56:59 FWIF 15:57:04 FWIW. 15:57:54 persi: I can pass on the message to skypher 15:58:49 sykopomp: even better is to use cl-vectors or something to generate the images. ;) lots of fun there. 15:58:59 *user___* says bye and thanks to everybody for making this channel one of the most pleasurable places on the net 15:59:06 -!- user___ [n=user@p549278E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:59:17 I wish minion were programmed to protest whenever someone says "rediculous" 16:00:40 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16920C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:00:51 Preposterous. 16:01:10 persi: priposterous* 16:01:44 sykopomp: ha. 16:02:42 'irregardless' 16:02:48 actually saw that on cll once 16:03:03 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska205253.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:03:42 -!- lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:03:55 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:07:00 -!- malu__ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4eac.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 16:10:31 phao [n=phao@189.13.96.195] has joined #lisp 16:11:35 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-248.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:15:02 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:20:45 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 16:21:35 when I run the xmls tests, I get the following error 'The value "quot;" is not of type (SIMPLE-ARRAY BASE-CHAR (*)).' In fact, it happens with all character entities (&, < etc.). Is anybody else experiencing this error? 16:23:12 good god, has nobody still released a version of xmls with that bug fixed? it's been like 3 years 16:23:48 there's a bogus type declaration in a function (check the backtrace) 16:24:05 something is declared as a simple-base-string, should probably be simple-string 16:24:18 yeah, I see it 16:28:27 drewc: you are the maintainer of xmls right? 16:40:30 saikat [n=saikat@user-12lc4ta.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:32 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:49:00 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 16:52:48 mcxx pasted "with-url macro" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71757 16:53:47 my with-url macro works ok, but SBCL throws warnings about undefined variables - should I be concerned about that? 16:57:36 yes 16:57:47 borism [n=boris@195-50-204-196-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 16:57:51 hmm.. I don't get any undefined variables for it. 16:59:00 schme: try something like (with-url (here "http://foo.com/page" '(:format :xml :page 2)) (print here)) 16:59:47 I guess I need get-parameters and such. 16:59:48 hehe 16:59:52 I just defined the macro ;) 17:00:09 ah, yes, there's also the get-parameters 17:00:21 -!- prabu [n=prabu@117.193.197.255] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:00:24 nevertheless, it warns when I use it, not when I compile it 17:00:37 fe[nl]ix: any pointer how to fix it? 17:00:58 mcxx: macros expand at compile time, but they code they generate isn't executed until you run them... 17:01:18 mulligan` [n=user@e178046056.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:01:20 the code* 17:01:34 josemanuel [n=josemanu@80.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:01:41 ah yes.. there are the warnings. 17:02:00 I know that, but obviously there's something I don't realize 17:02:26 -!- bobrown [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:02:47 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:03:54 fe[nl]ix annotated #71757 with "better" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71757#1 17:06:43 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.23.128] has joined #lisp 17:08:58 fe[nl]ix: thanks :) 17:09:03 mcxx: setf won't create lexical bindings: you net to use let or let* 17:09:24 aha 17:09:26 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 17:10:26 matley [n=matley@83.225.157.174] has joined #lisp 17:10:38 also you were doing multiple evaluation of the argument "parameters" : once-only takes care of that 17:11:13 I'm just thinking about why you used once-only, ok 17:11:14 try to macroexpand with-url and you'll see 17:12:40 ok, I get it now 17:16:44 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 17:16:45 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 17:17:00 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 17:17:39 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:21 mcxx: also, in case you actually need to set a binding 17:18:25 it's nicer to do (setf var (ecase somevar (:foo 1) (:bar 2))) rather than (ecase somevar (:foo (setf var 1)) (:bar (setf var 2))) 17:20:04 ok, thanks for the explanation 17:23:45 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-162-9.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:25:06 gwern [n=gwern@wikipedia/Gwern] has joined #lisp 17:26:39 hiya everyone. so I'm looking at papers on the Eurisko AI program; it was written by Lenat in the very late 1970s/early 1980s apparently at Stanford. am I correct in thinking it was almost certainly written in Interlisp? 17:27:39 gwern: I don't think anyone ever saw the source of that program. 17:27:44 get-setf-expansion is hard :/ 17:28:26 pkhuong: well, that's actually what I'm investigating - my email is going to run 'nobody has ever claimeed to have a copy, and even if they did, it wouldn't be useful because it's written in an archaic lisp like interlisp' 17:28:47 inasmuch as I don't think common lisp was around yet and scheme would've been unusuable/unthinkable 17:31:04 any particular reason to assume interlisp rather than another archaic lisp like maclisp? 17:31:19 joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 17:31:36 hefner: well, I've been googling and it seems stanford researchers all used interlisp. but I wasn't sure hence my asking here 17:32:35 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 17:33:46 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:33:58 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5ad6b997.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 17:35:31 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 17:40:01 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 17:42:17 Ferrari_308_GTS [n=algidus@88-149-211-157.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 17:42:45 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:42:49 -!- Ferrari_308_GTS is now known as fe[nl]ix 17:42:49 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has joined #lisp 17:43:08 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.95.92] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:44:19 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-162-9.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 17:44:52 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.141.127] has joined #lisp 17:50:44 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:55:15 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:59:08 -!- tns [n=mehdi@put92-6-88-165-36-162.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [] 18:04:12 yay. my first round trip from a (non-canonical) SMILES representation of a molecule to a MOLECULE and back to a (now canonicalized) SMILES string. 18:04:24 -!- gwern [n=gwern@wikipedia/Gwern] has left #lisp 18:05:24 no pictures? 18:09:49 damianc [n=damian@unaffiliated/dconway] has joined #lisp 18:11:07 twxnf [i=ushdfgak@syru153-183.syr.edu] has joined #lisp 18:11:16 hefner: no, that's coming though. the only pictures so far are hard-coded-ish (benzene, anthracene, etc...) but the geometries aren't computed from the molecule. 18:11:21 -!- jabberwocky [i=ushdfgak@syru153-183.syr.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:11:23 yet 18:11:51 oh, and there's still a bunch of work to on the SMILES writing. this was just a first step. 18:16:23 perfectstorm looks pretty neat 18:16:32 has it taken ideas from fractals? 18:16:46 is perfectstorm even still in development? 18:16:55 yes it is from the looks of it 18:16:59 pretty cool 18:17:01 I managed to get it running just enough for it to crash regularly 18:17:10 what do you mean from the looks of it? :P 18:17:27 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:17:27 oh it's got all this fractals in it which makes it look nice 18:17:29 crod [n=cmell@cb8a5b-227.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:17:46 they looked more like primitives than fractals 18:18:49 you mean like multi-dim primitives? 18:18:50 yeah 18:19:45 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a16-236.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:21:28 nevertheless pretty cool 18:21:29 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:25:45 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-69-102.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:28:16 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-69-102.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:29:18 masm [n=user@213.22.190.91] has joined #lisp 18:32:04 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-162-9.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:32:41 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-69-102.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:34:37 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:35:53 Good evening. 18:36:25 good afternoon, beach 18:37:59 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-69-102.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 18:38:25 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:39:42 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 18:39:59 hi, beach. 18:52:29 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 18:53:10 lacedaemon [n=algidus@88-149-208-8.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:53:25 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Client Quit] 18:54:10 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-157.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:54:12 -!- lacedaemon is now known as fe[nl]ix 18:54:24 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:54:31 yoeljacobsen [n=yoeljaco@85-250-23-223.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:55:30 *sykopomp* wonders if lisp.org might be replaced by something more along the lines of ruby.org or python.org at some point. 18:55:43 work is being done towards that end. 18:55:47 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E438AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:52 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 18:55:58 oh? 18:56:16 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E476F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:56:36 is there any ML to watch? Or any way I can help? :) 18:56:48 Don't know, sorry. 18:57:41 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:44 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:00:11 hmm... we could use a lisp-based CMS 19:00:11 sykopomp: Isn't that an ALU page? So, find a couple of dozen people willing to become paying ALU members for you. Then your army of hired ALU members can vote to build a new home page. 19:00:23 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:01:05 lichtblau: I was sort of wondering if the ALU might donate the domain for the sake of building an actual community 19:01:15 which I think would actually benefit all of us :-\ 19:01:31 ALU? 19:01:38 madnificent: http://lisp.org 19:01:39 Association of Lisp Users. 19:02:37 oh 19:03:46 it would actually be good for them, if that domain would be used to build a lisp community. That community could ensure that their meeting got more attention too 19:04:18 considering there've een about five blog platforms and threee wikis, it's slightly surprising there's no cms 19:05:36 madnificent: I have got bad news for you: it takes more than a web domain to build a community! 19:05:49 beach, no way! 19:06:26 It also takes a mascot and a snappy motto. 19:06:29 beach: certainly true. However, it is better to try, than to have nothing :) 19:06:29 tic: right, of course not. My bad! 19:06:56 madnificent: Tell you what. Try starting with the hard part. Hint: that's *not* the web domain. 19:07:17 peter_12 [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:51 it's probably not even the cms 19:08:22 getting people to produce content mightn't be so easy 19:08:35 beach: it does take more, but the barrier for entry to lisp right now is absurdly high 19:08:38 beach: if there is some action to form a community, then I will do my best to support it. The way I see it, it wouldn't be all to dumb for ALU to donate the domain (which is the point that I was trying to make) 19:08:54 honestly, if I hadn't actually known people that bothered to sit down and help me get started, I never would've touched lisp. 19:08:56 madnificent, there are as many communities as there are Lispers, essentially. 19:09:07 donate to whom? 19:09:12 Heck, I never would've actually known much about it. It's actually pretty hard to simply run into useful info about lisp. 19:09:16 sykopomp, that's true. 19:09:26 *tic* thanks rydis for his constant nagging in the past. 19:09:33 It's not about building a single community, but about making more resources more easily available. 19:09:40 tic: then let's build one more! As most of them try to build one big community, let's do exactly the same thing! \o/ 19:09:41 kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:52 the only thing stupider than one association that does nothing with a website and generally alienates the people they're meant to represent is two such associations 19:10:02 The barrier to entry is not all bad. 19:10:25 Could maybe have some kind of snazzy repl people could play with in their browser to suck them in? 19:10:34 planet.lisp probably is some way towards being what you want 19:10:36 elderK [n=elderK@218-101-117-154.dialup.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 19:10:47 Krystof: a site that tries to include as much information as possible, where various lisp communities and interest groups can collectively pool their information and resources is not some exclusive community 19:10:48 kzar: doesn't allegro have one of those? 19:10:55 rsynnott: No diea 19:10:58 idea* 19:11:01 sykopomp: I got helped here... if I wouldn't have had the tendency to join the channel of the thing I was trying to learn, the language of gods probably wouldn't have been within my reach either. 19:11:23 sykopomp: Lisp is more diverse, you will never get the Scheme and the CL folks onto one site 19:11:26 waterh [n=waterh@114.143.32.183] has joined #lisp 19:11:28 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Success] 19:11:43 lispm: I'm talking only Common Lisp, really. 19:11:48 I guess lisp.org isn't just for CL :( 19:12:01 sykopomp: to _whom_ are you proposing that the ALU "donate" the domain? 19:12:05 lispm: does ALU encompass scheme and other things? 19:12:24 the revolutionary committee, of course 19:12:38 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:12:53 Krystof: I have no idea. They wouldn't even have to give away the domain, but just give access to it to some group that would take care of bringing up a nice site and maintaining it. 19:13:13 this could be any number of things, like a committee 19:13:24 isn't l1sp trendier? ;) 19:13:27 or even someone who's willing to put a lot of time into it 19:13:52 I think the first step should be creating a lisp-advocacy channel and moving discussion there. 19:14:00 sykopomp: the word nice disturbs me... it seems to me that the whole of common-lisp has absolutely no graphical artists :( (which makes logos look bad, which apparantly alienates people) 19:14:04 wait... 19:14:10 lisp.com isn't taken? 19:14:13 the Lisp conferences of ALU are open for all Lisp dialects and related languages 19:14:15 *sykopomp* checks 19:14:27 sykopomp: I think that's too short 19:14:28 pkhuong, definitely. what we need is more web-2.1. l1sp.org fits right into that scheme (pah ;). 19:14:33 the ALU originally was formed out of the SLUG 19:14:45 (Symbolics Lisp Users Group) 19:14:53 "we" do have control over common-lisp.net. 19:14:56 er, there's something weird about the record for lisp.org 19:15:02 sorry, lisp.com 19:15:13 for a few years the conferences even included 'functional programming' 19:15:21 yeah, cl.net would probably be fine too, actually 19:15:58 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5ad6b997.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 19:16:04 cl.net could get that face lift, an online repl, some silly marketing-oriented crap 19:16:21 tic: we.cl.net ? 19:16:39 it sounds inane, but I think that would be really good for CL in general :-\ 19:16:45 is the big goal really to sell lisp to people to whole silly marketing-oriented crap appeals? 19:16:52 rsynnott: yes 19:17:06 but those people tend to be annoying 19:17:24 not all of them, and they can turn into productive users and hackers 19:17:26 rsynnott: at least ensure that people don't get disturbed when you say you'll write their software in CL 19:17:26 _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 19:17:29 yeah, be careful what you wish for 19:17:36 and use phrases like web 2.0 without irony 19:17:44 madnificent, what? 19:17:48 not to mention, even if they're annoying, they won't have this mystical idea of what CL is, and they will be more willing to accept it 19:18:12 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.141.127] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:18:21 sinistral-daemon [n=mnd@dsl-245-168-99.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:18:31 hefner, why so? 19:18:39 rsynnott: I don't really care if they're annoying, or if it draws in too many people. The point is to get as much accurate information about lisp out in a manner that makes the language sound appealing. 19:19:08 sykopomp: write some nice advertizing pages on CLIKI 19:19:16 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit ["Blue-shifted -- the way to travel..."] 19:19:31 and remember the focus of CLIKI 19:19:35 lisp.com appears to be owned by someone called digimedia.com 19:19:48 I think what will make Lisp most appealing would be more good libraries good applications, good implementations, and good development environments. 19:20:02 beach, my bet is on the latter. It's very confusing at first. 19:20:03 tic: saying you'll write software in CL seems to distress people. They are affraid that it will not exist much longer and/or that the project could never be flexible enough. If there is some source by which those people could see that CL is alive and kicking, it could ease their minds 19:20:22 which is one of those nice companies which collects potentially valuable domains for extortion purposes 19:20:26 madnificent, so don't talk, hack. show them what you're doing, impress people. (but I guess, yeah, that coudl be a good idea.) 19:20:34 I kinda like the crowd that Lisp currently appeals to. 19:20:44 beach: I agree, but I think a community grows in parallel with that 19:20:48 tic: but I want to talk ;_; 19:20:53 ahaas: and what kind of people is that? 19:20:59 madnificent: you know what I think? I think it would be much better to do the things that would *make* it live and kicking, rather than the things that would make it *appear* to be live and kicking. 19:21:20 beach: I think the initial barrier of entry is too high. Getting markety-stuff out might help break the ice for a lot of people. 19:21:22 heh 19:21:34 pkhuong: People who choose a language for more reasons that what's hot at the moment. 19:21:45 beach: I *am* doing that! I am doing my very best to motivate coders to learn lisp... Some of them are checking it out, and I *am* supporting them. 19:22:09 beach, I guess people are concerned that the current efforts (in the form of apps/libraries/environments) are not visible enough. So you need a web site (or a few) to squeeze out as much visibility as possible from whatever's available. 19:22:09 madnificent: I was referring to writing more good software as opposed to talking about it. 19:22:13 beach: also, how do you expect a language to have a bunch of libraries if barely anyone is using it? It can't keep up. 19:22:25 the problem with elitism is that elitists tend to consider themselves as part of the elite. How much of the elitism is actually self flattery? 19:23:12 pkhuong: I think Lisp attracts people who genuinely enjoy coding, more than just getting quick answers to brute force their way through their work. 19:23:17 beach: good is relative. I don't have extremely much experience, so I tend to find my good 'below average'. However, on friday I have released a utility for CL (because someone new asked for it here) 19:23:46 madnificent: excellent! 19:24:10 sykopomp: send every friend a copy of PCL 19:24:26 lispm: they usually gag at me because I'm making them learn something that's just weird 19:24:33 or hit them over the head with PCL 19:24:34 And every enemy a copy of Fortran? 19:24:39 lispm: or look at me like I'm insane. 19:25:04 then show them your super shiny Lisp software 19:25:26 lisp-newbie: modern fortran is actually pretty good. It's also likely that most computing power around the world will be used to run fortran programs for a while. 19:25:37 lispm: I do. But it's not shiny web stuff so they usually don't care :P 19:25:43 allso, I believe that you need many coders to support new projects. The most important reason of why rails is currently a handy framework, is because many people use it, of which some create plugins. Those plugins are the power of rails. Some goes for lisp, you need libraries, so you need coders 19:25:59 pkhuong: Fortran has huge concurrency issues. 19:26:16 It's not by any practical means keeping up on path to achieve parellelization. 19:26:25 Two separate issues, noted. 19:26:31 But both areas Fortran lacks in. 19:26:32 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:26:32 fortran is not really evil, lisp-newbie, there is a nice artcle by Henry Baker about Ada, that would be funny 19:26:56 lisp-newbie: nobody would use fortran for concurrency anyway. 19:27:09 sykopomp: that's why shiny non-web-stuff is also welcome 19:27:09 sykopomp: that sounds interesting; what kind of shiny stuff are you doing in lisp? 19:27:27 like shiny McCLIM desktops ;-) 19:28:31 sinistral-daemon: a flexible MUD engine that I'm writing (or trying to write) useful general-purpose libs for 19:28:33 brill [n=brill@0x57386060.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:28:36 Vratha [n=grimw@ool-4356ac9f.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:36 xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:28:46 like a prototype-oriented CLOS extension 19:29:16 sykopomp: all your non-Lisp friends will be excited by that! 19:29:30 lispm: not really. 19:29:32 maybe 19:29:36 make a youtube client and you will win 19:29:52 sohail, you mean, write a GUI app in Lisp? ;) 19:29:57 most of my friends are non-computer people, so wouldn't work for me 19:30:00 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4eac.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 19:30:05 tic: it's possible :) 19:30:16 rsynnott, ...friends? 19:30:26 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-69-102.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:30:27 haha 19:30:31 rsynnott: opposite for me. Most of my friends are computer people. 19:30:35 though between the gui and the video decoder it'd be more a collection of FFI bindings than anything else 19:30:45 tic, beyond hello world! 19:30:48 Most of them, except one of them (and my girlfriend), roll their eyes if I even mention lisp. 19:31:14 There's a barrier that good software by itself can't get past, and that's what you need to have community resources and marketing for. 19:31:21 a pure lisp youtube client would be rather more impressive, but not very practical 19:31:40 sohail, LW is so expensive, though. 19:31:46 We don't have to sell lisp on nothing. There's plenty to back up pretty much anything, but we need better resources to show people its capabilities. 19:31:54 and the barrier of entry needs to be lowered considerably. 19:32:11 I like the page "Features of Common Lisp" 19:32:28 peter_12_ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:31 sykopomp: a lisp that runs in javascript? Just show off the power of macros etc?a 19:32:45 sykopomp: help the Clozure guys with the IDE for CCL and port it back to SBCL when ready 19:33:00 erm, surely the barrier of entry at the moment is more or less 'has computer, can read installation instructions'? 19:33:01 Why did Hemlock disappear from SBCL? 19:33:12 madnificent: runs in javascript? Why not just have an AJAX interface running on top of something like weblocks, and publish that? 19:33:25 lispm: I'm more interested in getting Climacs to a useful state. 19:33:34 rsynnott, too many steps in the installation instructions. Cusp is somewhat OK for the average programmer, Emacs or Vim is certainly not. 19:33:37 tic: non-essential unmaintained code. Better to not have it than to have rotten code. 19:33:39 even better! 19:33:41 sykopomp: because that was a discussion that was here some time ago, and I didn't want ta start it again :# 19:33:46 pkhuong, OK. 19:33:57 madnificent: okay :) 19:34:04 slom_ [n=slom@pD9EB5AAC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:22 tic, tried clojure? 19:34:40 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.211.114] has joined #lisp 19:34:53 I wonder if I could drum up some interest for a climacs hacking week. 19:34:56 I'll ask around 19:35:43 sykopomp: emacs + slime not good enough? 19:36:07 madnificent: I'd rather have a native lisp environment, and wouldn't it be more portable, too? 19:36:26 (cross-OS portable, not necessarily cross-implementation) 19:36:44 What about Clojure? 19:36:52 Clojure is not common lisp 19:36:59 True. 19:37:06 an expanded version of the third section of this: http://common-lisp.net/%7Etrittweiler/slime-talk-2008.pdf would be an extremely useful new person resources 19:37:10 But it's still a cross platform lisp implementation. 19:37:16 sohail, nope. good IDE? 19:37:16 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-158-30.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 19:37:25 tic: no IDE 19:37:27 slime :) 19:37:27 Seeing as it's run on the jvm. 19:37:29 sykopomp: I wouldn't know how emacs + slime would be unportable, but I guess you're right:) 19:37:42 tic, they are developing an addin for netbeans I think 19:37:46 but yeah, slime 19:38:03 lisp-newbie: it's a cross-platform lisp dialect that runs on the JVM, not a 'lisp implementation' (as we use it here) 19:38:32 madnificent: emacs has pretty horrible support in windows, and problems for the windows version tend to be brushed off with 'tell them to use a free OS' 19:39:25 This really is not about lowering standards. It's about lowering the barriers of entry. 19:39:28 sohail, I'm planning on doing the other way around; using the Vim netbeans interface to communicate with swank. .-) 19:39:48 tic, sounds painful :-) 19:39:53 we don't need a full-fledged slime-like environment for beginners, but we -do- need somehting that can be installed and configured by inexperienced users in a matter of minutes. 19:40:19 cusp is that, surely? 19:40:29 no. CUSP is eclipse 19:40:40 http://phil.nullable.eu/ This might be more fitting 19:40:48 sohail, oh yes. the problem with Vim is the total lack of a way to do asynchronous communication. the main loop blocks on keyboard input. _unless_ you use NetBeans. However, that functionality isn't separated out into a more general interface.... 19:41:49 ejs2 [n=eugen@92.49.239.221] has joined #lisp 19:41:58 -!- Vratha [n=grimw@ool-4356ac9f.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:42:16 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:42:52 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:43:11 tic: If you want something like Hemlock, I would suggest writing a curses-like backend for McCLIM. 19:43:44 tic: and then running Climacs instead, because Climacs is now much more sophisticated than Hemlock. 19:43:50 beach, I do not actually want Hemlock (by now you should know that?), but thanks for the information on McCLIM. Did not know a curses backend was possible. 19:44:38 Slightly problematic to display truecolor-image:s, heh. 19:45:04 -!- tompa [n=thomas@h-224-178.A151.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:45:20 peter_12 [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:45:57 this would be blasphemy but a first step could be a better syntax highlighting scheme for something like notepad++ 19:46:30 you need syntax highlighting for lisp? 19:46:46 waterh: a first step towards what? 19:46:47 tompa [n=thomas@h-224-178.A151.priv.bahnhof.se] has joined #lisp 19:46:48 i only use 3 colors... code, strings, comments 19:46:52 Is EQ the wrong function to use to test string equivalence? i.e. (EQ "hello" "hi") 19:46:59 lisp-newbie: yes 19:47:02 lisp-newbie: yes, use EQUAL or STRING= 19:47:02 Because I keep getting NIL even if the two are the same. 19:47:04 *sykopomp* 's lisp code lights up like a christmas tree. 19:47:05 lisp-newbie: eq compares pointers. 19:47:12 Oh, that makes sense. 19:47:25 Thanks a bunch. 19:47:30 though in this case, the result should be the same 19:47:50 Is STRING= a macro and EQUAL a function? 19:48:02 Or both functions. 19:48:03 clhs string= 19:48:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_stgeq_.htm 19:48:06 beach: a first step maybe towards getting the proles started 19:48:16 Ah, wonderful. 19:49:48 beach, where do I report typos in the McCLIM manual? 19:49:48 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-162-9.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 19:51:52 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@92-49-224-119.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:53:00 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@80.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:54:08 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:54:55 -!- phao [n=phao@189.13.96.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:56:32 tic: send patches to mcclim-devel at common-lisp.net 19:58:45 *hefner* spies two mcclim persons 19:59:20 Krystof, beach: do you guys have any objections to changing the default text style? (since no one has responded to my email) 19:59:39 Krystof, I suppose the manual is in the repos? 19:59:55 phao [n=phao@189.13.96.195] has joined #lisp 19:59:58 hefner: I have no objections to anything you want to do! (including fixing keyboard handling and focus!) 20:00:45 -!- lexclose [n=wmarvel@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has left #lisp 20:01:54 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D86B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:45 -!- xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.12/0000000000]"] 20:03:04 alec [n=alec@pool-96-233-19-73.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:06 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 20:05:04 hefner: No problem for me. It would be good though if you made sure that Climacs has a "fixed" font as default. 20:05:59 hefner: I would also like for it to be easier to change the text style for an application at startup. As it is now, I think the default text style is determined at compile time. 20:06:46 -!- masm [n=user@213.22.190.91] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:06:47 hefner: perhaps this is the time to decide on name for a configuation file for McCLIM and for McCLIM applications. 20:07:39 tic: mcclim-devel@common-lisp.net I would think. 20:07:43 mcclimrc 20:07:46 \o/ 20:08:01 ah, I fixed the default in the listener, overlooked climacs. it looks very stiking with the sans-serif though, aside from being misaligned. 20:09:02 hefner: the listener might be problematic as well, because Drei is used to indent code. No? 20:09:05 question... how do I get to the listener in climacs? ;-] 20:09:12 beach: right, I fixed that. 20:09:18 hefner: How? 20:09:38 sykopomp: M-: (clim-listener:run-listener), but you typically do it the other way around. 20:09:51 beach: thanks :) 20:10:10 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 20:10:24 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:11:11 peter_12_ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:07 peter_12__ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:12:08 http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/screenshot/handsome-climacs.png (in case anyone wondered what climacs looked like in sans-serif) 20:13:08 hefner: very nice! Perhaps you should leave it like that and fix the indentation instead! :) 20:13:48 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 20:14:05 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:05 nice :D 20:14:56 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:17 anyway, I don't have commit access to climacs, but it's a one line fix. 20:15:22 -!- elderK is now known as LordK 20:15:32 hefner: the indentation is? 20:16:16 no, changing the default font. 20:17:03 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 20:17:19 hefner: Sorry, I'm confused. At the moment, the default font for Climacs is sans-serif because ou changed it in McCLIM, and it's a one-line fix to make it fixed again? 20:17:44 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:33 yeah, it's a one line change to override that in climacs 20:18:54 hefner: OK, i'll put it in. What is it? 20:20:13 hefner pasted "climacs :fix" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71769 20:21:35 -!- sinistral-daemon [n=mnd@dsl-245-168-99.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [] 20:21:40 :fix or :fixed? 20:22:09 nurv101` [n=askmefor@81.193.35.139] has joined #lisp 20:22:30 :fix 20:22:39 indeed. OK. 20:23:31 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp124.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:23:35 committed. Thanks hefner. 20:23:47 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:23:57 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:24:11 Darn. Evening _again_! 20:24:43 I wonder how hard it would be to get the indentation right (based on x position rather than number of characters) so that one could use any font. 20:24:45 -!- peter_12__ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:25:05 peter_12__ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:05 it would break the practice of adding extra spaces to align things in columns 20:25:07 hello again tic 20:25:51 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable216.30-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:25:51 hefner: Yes, but that practice is bad anyway. If we had the right x position, it could always be translated into number of spaces in a backend such as curses. 20:25:56 beach, well, hi to you. :) I meant it's already late so I don't feel like start doing fixes on the McCLIM manual, rather do it in one sweep. 20:26:05 -!- brill [n=brill@0x57386060.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:26:07 maybe you could just write something that generates a spacing box of some form by reading the font, and then using that spacing box throughout? 20:26:11 Perhaps inventing tab stops? 20:26:13 tic: sure. 20:26:17 or am I speaking silly things? 20:26:45 tic: it is probably better to just remember the x position of the form under which the next one should be aligned. 20:26:47 sykopomp: hard to say. 20:27:33 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:27:41 yakov [n=yakov__@95-28-51-200.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 20:27:53 -!- peter_12_ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:29:54 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [No route to host] 20:30:09 hefner: I have another fix for the inspector: extending the list of exported symbols in a package does not work ... 20:30:15 hefner: http://paste.lisp.org/display/71711#1 20:30:46 hefner: not sure if I shoudl use a weak table ... but that would not be portable 20:31:46 -!- peter_12__ [n=peter@pool-71-105-154-91.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 20:33:05 -!- slom_ [n=slom@pD9EB5AAC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:33:32 beach, even better. if you can attach such properties to text. which I suppose you can since you already have coloring in place, and, well the text position itself. 20:34:34 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 20:34:49 tic: It's not done that way (if I undertand you correctly). The output is produced from a syntax object that changes color to reflect the syntactic element that it sees. 20:35:18 beach, so a form is an object? 20:35:24 slom_ [n=slom@pD9EB5AAC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:43 s/an/each/ 20:35:56 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 20:37:15 tic: The text is till there, but the incremental parser determines the forms and their positions in the text (as offsets from the start of the buffer). The text is actually drawn from the syntax object. 20:37:53 lexclose [n=wmarvel@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:39:23 hefner: is the character spacing off in that screenshot? 20:39:54 severely. 20:40:47 is that a mcclim-truetype problem? 20:41:10 beach: I think we need a custom beach-designed climacs font as the default font :) 20:41:11 beach, I see. 20:41:23 it's aggravated in my local copy with the subpixel hacks, for some reason. glyphs are randomly pushed one pixel to the right. rounding problem, I guess. 20:42:32 slyrus_: I'm working on it. 20:42:39 awesome! 20:42:57 (though not right now, because the end of the year is going to be tough) 20:42:58 anyone using cl-perec besides the authors' government-y site? 20:43:26 it would be neat if there were test fonts where the glyph shapes were chosen to make clear whether or not your display engine handled spacing and kerning correctly 20:44:08 hefner: what would that look like? 20:44:23 hefner: I'm sure there are such things 20:44:45 -!- twxnf is now known as ushdf 20:45:19 beach: I imagine a number of glyphs with markers at the edges that should align, and you'd perhaps print every pair of glyphs to make sure they align correctly. 20:45:23 rsynnott: i know about two guys playing with it, but no live systems besides ours 20:45:32 ah 20:45:53 I've an elephant-based system at the moment, and am wondering if cl-perec would work better 20:46:33 may play around with it 20:46:48 -!- besiria` [n=user@ppp083212085113.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:46:54 (in particular, it would probably suit better from an indexing point of view) 20:47:25 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:47:27 attila_lendvai: am I correct in thinking that when you change a persistent class definition, cl-perec actually adds/deletes columns from the table? 20:47:48 rsynnott: yes 20:48:05 does that generally take a long time? 20:48:11 rsynnott: it looks nice :) 20:48:20 (for systems with maybe a million or so objects of the same class? 20:48:27 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable216.30-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:48:39 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:48:45 rsynnott: no, but it shouldn't matter because it should not happen at runtime of the live system 20:49:18 hmm, so if you want to change a class definition on your live system, you do it during downtime? 20:50:00 also, does each field being represented by a column impose any practical limits on the numbers of fields you can have per object? 20:50:14 (I'm not really sure what pgsl's limits onthis sort of thing are) 20:50:28 rsynnott: sure. we build a core file with the new definitions, shut down the old version, start a repl with the new core, accept the conditions warning about schema change, and only then start the new core 20:51:03 ah, right 20:51:21 rsynnott: postgres doesn't seem to have such random limits, but we haven't met any of those 20:51:28 s/but/and/ 20:51:29 *rsynnott* tries to avoid downtime more or less entirely 20:51:46 which isn't always practical, but can generally add slots without downtime 20:51:49 heh, sbcl dies on us quite regularly... :) 20:52:02 really? What of? 20:52:07 wol [n=wol@c-98-207-131-163.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:12 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 20:52:24 we did demo that: adding slots at runtime by CC-ing a class and refreshing the browser 20:52:57 random stuff, mostly due to threading. sbcl-devel has all our experience. they are slowly fixed one-by-one, though... 20:54:20 it doesn't generally die on me except when I made a silly cl-ppcre mistake which allocated far too much memory 20:54:55 but then I'm only handling a max of 10-20 dynamic page requests per second 20:55:19 do you cache objects? 20:55:39 matley- [n=matley@83.225.157.174] has joined #lisp 20:56:03 (for instance, if you retrieve object a, then do (slot-vvalue a 'slot1) (slot-value a 'slot2)... does it have to pull the row each time?) 20:56:13 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:15 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.157.174] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:56:22 howdy'all 20:57:14 Howdy fusss. 20:57:42 lisp-newbie: did you figure out that statement splitting function? 20:58:09 Sure did. 20:58:22 Thanks for asking :o) 20:58:23 90% of your problem solves itself when you have a clear and well defined data model 20:58:37 Ain't that the truth. 20:59:20 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:00:02 if I remember correctly, you had an "statement" as input that was of the form (foo "variable" bar), where you want to break that statement in to a head, that was "foo", and a tail that was everything after "variable" 21:01:03 Kind of. I was taking a list and breaking into into two separate lists. 21:01:20 And thinking of a conventional way to take those two lists and supply them as input to another function. 21:01:25 if you have situations like those, instead of descending down the input list and inspecting each element therein, start by writing accessors (input-foo input) => "foo", and (input-bar input) == (nthcdr 2 input) => "bar" 21:01:42 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-204-196-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit ["leaving"] 21:02:22 Hmm. 21:03:07 old lispers used lists to model every imaginable datatype; we don't have to do that. you can write your own tokenizer that takes a statement as a list and returns a structure of the form (defstruct statement np vp), then you can use accessors like (statement-np input) ==> 21:03:24 borism [n=boris@195-50-204-196-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 21:03:43 what is an example of a char that is not a 'standard-char ? 21:04:20 # I suppose? 21:04:24 as soon as you abstract away from lists and use structures and classes, you get pretty-printing for free! that's when you feel what it means to be hacking in lisp. manual manipulation of CARs and CDRs is no different than *ptr++ 21:04:39 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:05:04 lisp-newbie: (standard-char-p #\#) -> T 21:05:21 Aw. 21:05:59 dmiles: sbcl tells me that some random japanese char I pasted in is NOT a standard-char 21:06:03 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-69-102.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [] 21:06:12 dmiles_afk: anything unicode 21:06:13 fusss: Yeah, I love the list encapsulation mentality. 21:06:15 (it has a type of extended-char; standard-char-p gives nil) 21:06:22 ü is also not a standard-char, in LispWorks 21:06:25 -!- slom_ [n=slom@pD9EB5AAC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:06:32 though I'm not sure how standeard al this stuff is 21:06:32 Really manipulating higher level functions. 21:06:41 i thought it was divided between base-chars and extended-shars 21:06:42 standard char = 95 printing ASCII characters and return. 21:07:01 dmiles_afk: standard chars give you a set of characters that any implementation must be able to represent. 21:07:01 Just difficult to, as you said before, define a clear data model. 21:07:02 dmiles_afk: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/t_std_ch.htm#standard-char 21:08:13 lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 21:08:27 lisp-newbie: it think it was Hoare who said he could rewrite any program into one statement: Output = Program(Input); at any given point, your code should read like intuitive pseudo code. once you have the low level utilities written, the app loop becomes almost a one-liner. 21:08:29 rsynnott: no, there's caching for reading, but writing mostly ends up in an update, except in the dimensional voodoo, where setting the same value is optimized away 21:08:50 ah.. right on so #\Null is not standard 21:09:02 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4eac.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:09:05 attila_lendvai: ah, but slot reads are cached? 21:09:42 rsynnott: yes 21:09:46 ah, cool 21:09:48 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-38-248.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:09:56 I think I'll play about with it anyway 21:10:31 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 21:10:32 elephant is nice, but has some undesireable performance characteristics from my point of view 21:10:40 we should update the executable core on the site... 21:11:18 (in particular, if I'm looking at an object, it is generally very useful for all of the slots in the object to be pulled from disk at the same time where it isn't already in the db machine's cache 21:11:50 but elephant repesents slots as entries in a btree represented by rows in a big table, so that generally doesn't happen 21:13:14 rsynnott: cl-perec has controls for prefetching. normally always a whole row is fetched, but even the queries can be it can be controlled, even for queries 21:13:51 ah, good 21:13:56 rsynnott: there's a 32 linux binary that you can try without much hassle... http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-perec/ 21:14:46 (in any case, my understanding of how most relational databases work would be that the columns of a db row would generally end up in the same block, unless the table is particularly wide 21:15:15 ah, I shall have to resort to vmware :) 21:15:15 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:16:16 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:16 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-076-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:18:38 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:19:07 attila_lendvai: you use your own webserver, as well? 21:20:01 attila_lendvai: what kind of site do you run on it? 21:20:39 rsynnott: we were ucw based, but me and drewc wanted to bring it in two different directions, so we agreed that i fork it on a different name. but after hours of struggling cleanup attempts, i ended up darcs initialize'ing a new repo (wui, no project page yet) 21:21:27 heh, all you need are some docs and you can rival edi weitz for number of libraries :)] 21:21:31 madnificent: a webapp for the hungarian gov. to help planning/managing the part of the budget that goes to the local communes 21:21:51 attila_lendvai: you fucking rock! 21:21:53 rsynnott: sorry, we won't have docs... :) 21:22:08 I noticed :) 21:22:41 who is behind bknr? _those_ guys need docs for sure 21:22:43 (though cl-perec feels rather like other persistency systems, so shouldn't be too hard to get thw hang of) 21:23:01 speding time on docs is much better spent on the code... our "users" are all programmers after all! learn to use your tools and docs are just slowing you down. 21:23:14 I'm just waiting for my linux vm to finish a large update I foolishly allowed it to do a while back, then I'll try playing about with it 21:23:43 rsynnott: our libs have a _huge_ number of complex tests, applies to perec, too 21:23:45 -!- matley- [n=matley@83.225.157.174] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:23:50 does anyone know if weblocks plays nice with apache? i have a few virtual hosts running under apache 21:25:18 fusss: you could presumably use apache as a reverse proxy 21:25:43 Yeah, no reason why not. 21:25:51 though for high-traffic sites a dedicated proxy/load balancer may make more sense; less overhead 21:26:10 -!- aka-aka [i=dba322f1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c8fe5202d24ead1b] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:26:20 *rsynnott* uses pound, which is ridiculously simple to set up and very fast, but fairly feature-free 21:26:29 it's on my todo to write a full lisp reverse proxy for wui. the load balancer in apache was mixing up sessions for us, exchanging logged in users (!) 21:26:52 attila_lendvai: ah, your system requires people to be bound to a specific server? 21:26:53 not high traffic in terms of number of users, just few users each doing something computationally expensive 21:26:59 attila_lendvai: scary 21:27:10 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 21:27:29 -!- yakov [n=yakov__@95-28-51-200.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:27:44 *rsynnott* just uses a centralised session storage system, so that it doesn't matter which app server the user happens to hit 21:27:46 manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-69-102.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:27:48 rsynnott: this app is complex, sessions use a lot of memory... no point in serializing it at every request 21:28:04 yep, if I had big sessions this wouldn't be practical 21:28:45 rsynnott: which framework do you use? 21:29:08 hunchentoot as a server, elephant for oodb, own framework 21:29:16 So, I don't expect anyone to actually do this, but could someone try and get to my lisp web site? 21:29:26 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@port-92-205-69-102.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:29:27 mogunus: where is it? 21:29:50 173.9.7.10:8080/home 21:29:57 *luis* had bad luck with elephant. cl-perec was a much nicer experience. 21:30:10 mogunus: no go 21:30:30 luis: yep, to an extent that's why I'm asking about it 21:30:48 sykopomp: ugh. 21:30:48 elephant has been good to me. what was your problem with it? 21:30:59 (elephant is nice, but there are aspects of its behaviour performance-wise which don't suit me 21:31:20 also, I must use the pgsql interface, because I have more than one app server 21:31:32 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177155062.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 21:31:36 mogunus: make sure your server is not listening on 127.0.0.1 21:32:38 yep, it doesn't appear to be possible to connect to that port 21:33:06 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:33:09 (I'm fine for the moment, but as user numbers grow it may become more of a problem) 21:33:21 That's unfortunate. Ugh. I forwarded it to my box... 21:33:34 I didn't specify an address when I used start-server (hunchentoot) 21:33:48 IME it will listen everywher eby default 21:33:53 *mogunus* nods 21:33:57 that's what the docs tell me 21:34:03 rsynnott, fusss: I can't recommend haproxy enough for this purpose. http://haproxy.1wt.eu/ 21:34:03 mogunus: are you sure that you've opened 8080 on your firewall? 21:34:37 and that your ISP allows you to allow people to connect to that port 21:34:51 (some crappier ISPs do tend to block 80, 8080, 110 and friends) 21:34:52 rsynnott: I'm staring at my router's "port forwarding" page, with 8080 opened, forwared to my box, and "enable" checked. 21:35:04 And I have a buisness internet account with all ports open 21:35:26 otoh, I *don't* trust my crappy router (it is from comcast) 21:35:54 (ludicrously, a DATAA CENTER I once used blocked non-common ports by default) 21:36:08 rlpowell: thanks for writing about your experience with weblocks; massively good text :-) 21:36:10 they'd change it if you asked, but that they did it in the first place was weird 21:36:51 fusss: \o/ 21:36:52 Thanks! 21:38:30 rsynnott: one in belgium blocks everything below 10000 21:38:45 mogunus: If you are using Linux, netstat can tell you which address:port Hunchentoot is listening on. 21:38:46 rsynnott: in fact, I believe it is the biggest one 21:39:34 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a5b-227.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:41 crod [n=cmell@cb8a16-206.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:40:16 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:31 the worst my ISP does is throttles bit-torrent at some times of day, I think 21:40:40 (I'm actually quite grateful they do this) 21:41:15 rsynnott: comcast cut of my connection and required me to sign a "i will never do it again" page. 21:41:47 all that for downloading a camcorder version of the stupid Zohan movie 21:42:02 I sort of wonder why I've never run into that. I didn't think rtorrent's encryption actually helped (maybe it does?) 21:42:57 sykopomp: are you in the US? 21:43:07 rsynnott: yup. With Comcast, too. 21:43:13 I haven't heard of providers taking action anywhere else 21:43:13 ah 21:43:52 our local euivalent of the RIAA did attempt to sue people at one point, but the incumbent telecom monopoly was so unhelpful they gave up 21:43:53 that's cause the US passed a law saying they could/should 21:44:21 ah, hadn't realised that 21:44:32 ISPs here don't usually help a lot. Most of the time they just give you a slap on the wrist and tell you to stop. 21:44:39 Mainly, the RIAA is actually suing college students. 21:44:48 but hopefully that'll end soon. 21:46:17 maybe no; I'm sure they'll want to hold onto any proffits they can in the recession 21:46:30 -!- waterh [n=waterh@114.143.32.183] has quit ["later"] 21:47:04 rsynnott: a lot of prominent law schools, including Harvard, is sending students into the courts to defend people 21:47:12 s/is/are/ 21:48:35 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:48:36 ah, good, that's socially responsible of them 21:49:17 *rsynnott* considers selective enforcement of laws to be worse than no enforcement at all 21:49:48 *sykopomp* would rather not have enforcement of copyright laws against individuals at all. 21:51:25 *fusss* thinks people should be sued for voluntarily watching Zohan 21:51:35 hey! :( 21:51:39 -!- Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:52:22 heheh 21:52:30 This is very odd. 21:52:38 I can't find my hunchentoot port with netstat localhost 21:52:57 netstat -nltp 21:52:59 it'll show up 21:53:35 Oh, there it is. Thanks. 0.0.0.0:8080 21:53:42 that's... a bizarre-looking film 21:55:23 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:55:28 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:03 yakov [n=yakov__@95-28-8-199.broadband.corbina.ru] has joined #lisp 21:56:06 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-108-6.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:20 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:06 anryx [n=anryx@213.210.175.188.adsl.nextra.cz] has joined #lisp 22:06:11 So would that mean that hunchentoot is listening on all my affresses? 22:07:18 mogunus: yes 22:07:50 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 22:07:56 you can test yourself by doing telnet 8080 22:08:08 if that works, then it is probably some propblem with your port forwarding 22:09:29 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:10:13 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 22:18:35 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:35 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:19:47 Well. 22:20:14 Apparently there's something drastically wrong with my port forwarding. Though my router has a "port forwarding" interface, it doesn't actually work. 22:21:16 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:30 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 22:22:02 At all. It's just there for show. If I want to forward ports to something besides my server, I'd need to buy another static IP from comcast and assign that to a router that can actually do port forwarding. 22:22:03 -!- LordK [n=elderK@218-101-117-154.dialup.clear.net.nz] has quit [] 22:23:06 can you not just use a proper router? 22:23:13 or do they insist you use theirs? 22:23:19 Nope! They insist I use theirs. 22:23:25 (such a demand is illegal here, thankfully) 22:23:26 The modem is *in* the router. 22:23:38 eircom tried it, but the regulator forced them not to 22:23:39 So I can't even swap it out on the sly. 22:23:44 mogunus: I have my comcast router go to another computer which does the routing. 22:23:46 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@92.49.239.221] has left #lisp 22:23:53 can you reconfigure it to just act as a gateway, and use another router? 22:24:38 ahaas: how do you configure the IP of that computer? 22:24:39 honest question; which one is better suited for a high-bandwidth but small traffic site? ucw or weblocks? I need all the ajaxy eye-candy crap i can get with some flash throw in. the main functionality of the site is (upload video, backend rips the video to flash with ffmpeg, some magic is applied to frob the swf tags and insert metadata, the video is played back with statistical data super... 22:24:41 ...imposed on the video. IOW, very high computation) 22:25:06 fusss: doesn't sound like you really need a web framework as such 22:25:14 in that the web logic sounds very simple 22:25:17 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:25:40 mogunus: I have a local server, which is what the cable modem connects to. It gets an IP from Comcast's dhcp server. All of my other machines go through that local server. 22:26:29 Hmm, I wonder if there's an apache mod for Lisp. 22:26:38 A bit off topic, I shall check with apache. 22:26:46 To satisfy my own curiosity. 22:26:48 lisp-newbie, mod_proxy 22:26:58 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.87.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:26:59 rsynnott: it's a financial industry website. there is tons of static data, pdfs, xlses, etc. content developers upload the video, but site users just view it. think of it as a lecture delivery platform, with side-by-side views of lecturer and powerpoint presentation (a la omnesio) but with metadata and "popup" statistical data super imposed on some flash "tracks" 22:27:01 lisp-newbie: There is mod-lisp, but it's not necessary. 22:27:15 ahaas: I see, thanks for the knowledge. 22:27:15 there's a thing called mod_lisp, which is effectively just a custom fast-cgi-like thing 22:27:17 is mod_lisp even useful? 22:27:17 :o) 22:27:20 ..there's a mod_proxy for lighttpd also .. i think a reverse proxy like that is what's used almost exclusively by lispers these days 22:27:22 and possibly best avoided these days 22:27:33 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a16-206.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:27:34 tic: if for some reason you really wanted to use clisp, maybe 22:27:42 that's what id' think, lighttpd or nginx in front of hunchentoot 22:27:50 (though I think hunchentoot might work on clisp in single-threaded mode these days) 22:28:00 nginx is a little tidier, lighttpd has the nice lua scripting interface for request mangling 22:28:27 lnostdal: your best bet is to use hunchentoot or something, and use a reverse proxy in front of it 22:28:39 (apache mod_proxy, nginx, pound etc.) 22:32:49 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.23.128] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:38:36 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:01 fusss: Everything just clicked in that program I was writing. 22:39:04 And it feels wonderful. 22:39:14 lisp-newbie: congrats! 22:39:26 I wish I could think as elegantly as the language I was using looked. 22:39:28 Ha. 22:41:13 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 22:41:54 crod [n=cmell@d28851-016.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:42:30 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:24 Does anyone know of a good piece of literature which described propper coding techniques/styles? When to indent parentisis, etc? 22:44:03 lisp-newbie: http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps 22:44:04 lisp-newbie: slime/emacs will do correct indentation for you 22:44:35 and what ahaas said 22:44:39 rsynnott: I haven't setup slime yet. I should do that. 22:44:44 And thank you kindly ahaas. 22:44:50 lisp-newbie: Gentle Introduction covers proper indentation 22:45:03 lisp-newbie: you certainly should :) 22:45:10 it's extremely helpful 22:45:16 sykopomp: I still have that open, I shall look into that, too. 22:45:35 rsynnott: So I have seen. There are a lot of things I have been neglecting to do properly. 22:46:05 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:46:08 lisp-newbie: the third section of this is a decent usage guide: http://common-lisp.net/%7Etrittweiler/slime-talk-2008.pdf 22:46:31 why can't two packages be interdependent? (meaning: foo:foofunc uses bar:bar, and bar:barfunc uses foo:foo) 22:46:48 Thank you kindly, rsynnott, I appreciate it. 22:46:49 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:47:12 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:47:17 madnificent: mixin package maybe? 22:47:26 madnificent: since packages only manage symbols, I usually break the cycle with an empty package that both foo and bar use. 22:47:55 fusss: mixin package? 22:48:14 pkhuong: heh, that's a cool solution :) 22:48:33 like pkhuong said. you abstract away shared functionality into a third package, like you would with class mixins 22:48:45 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-8.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:48:53 just defpackage and :export the symbols you need, you don't have to do anything else. 22:49:12 not a bad idea 22:49:39 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.211.114] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:50:02 however, if the packages are defined in different files, how do you load it (this is probably a stupid question) 22:50:37 nvm, define first, in-package later 22:53:36 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 22:59:58 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-076-112.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:42 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:07:15 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-8.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 23:08:10 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:08:49 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 23:10:42 Thas1 [n=weechat@97-113-47-139.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:55 -!- Thas [n=weechat@97-113-38-116.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:13:00 -!- Thas1 is now known as Thas 23:13:04 -!- anryx [n=anryx@213.210.175.188.adsl.nextra.cz] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:18:53 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-138-158-30.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:20:29 is no-one else but me having problems with `q' in slime? .. i've been stuck with messed up windows after M-. 'ing my way to the core of some problem for weeks now 23:20:43 -!- repnop [n=Mage@adsl-69-225-0-181.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:22:01 ..doing M-. over a generic function and selecting a method in the list that pops up for instance .. the window-layout is a mess afterwards 23:22:40 maybe it's me using emacs 23.0.60.1 .. too new? 23:22:58 So I have a macro that needs to use one of my defined functions 23:23:14 mogunus: eval-when. 23:23:24 clhs eval-when 23:23:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_eval_w.htm 23:23:37 pkhuong: thanks 23:23:51 Unless the functions would be more logically placed in another file... 23:24:31 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:33 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-38-248.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 23:25:47 I don't think it would, no. 23:26:08 hm, i guess opening a new-frame before examining things works .. that doesn't mess up the old frame 23:27:57 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:28:48 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:31:22 -!- yakov [n=yakov__@95-28-8-199.broadband.corbina.ru] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:33:27 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.23.128] has joined #lisp 23:35:56 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:38:00 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:04 How do I make sure that the *standard-output* stream in sbcl is UTF-8? 23:38:22 When I start sbcl without slime, all my utf-8 stuff comes out mangled. 23:40:37 mogunus, i thin you should first ensure you have correct locale 23:40:56 I have echo $LC_CTYPE 23:40:57 en_US.UTF-8 23:42:51 My firefox encoding is set to UTF-8 23:43:42 slime-net-coding system must affect something? 23:44:40 wait, your sbcl is serving pages through hunchentoot or something? 23:44:44 Yes. 23:45:03 ok, so first have a look at the http headers 23:45:44 How do I do that? 23:45:45 and also, what you serve in headers, you can use livehhtpheaders firefox addon, or just telnet 23:46:17 23:46:39 or .http-twiddle emacs mode 23:47:29 Wasn't someone asking this very same thing recently? 23:47:29 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:47:30 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-38-248.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:47:44 Probably me. 23:47:52 The differtence was, I got it working fine after a while. 23:48:00 But only when I start things from slime. 23:48:16 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:30 that's strange. 23:48:37 Yeah, it really is. 23:48:47 Which is why I'd like to get to the bottom of things :\ 23:49:25 so you should grep swank.lisp and see if it does something with *s-o* 23:52:26 there is also hunchentoot:*default-content-type* and hunchentoot:*hunchentoot-default-external-format* 23:53:08 (setf hunchentoot:*default-content-type* "text/html; charset=utf-8" hunchentoot:*hunchentoot-default-external-format* (flexi-streams:make-external-format :utf8 :eol-style :lf)) 23:53:14 ..works for me 23:53:32 i think, hm 23:54:16 justin` [n=user@cpc3-broo2-0-0-cust711.renf.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:29 Yeah, I use those. 23:54:32 -!- justin` [n=user@cpc3-broo2-0-0-cust711.renf.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:54:32 Set them to the same thing. 23:54:58 In my liveheaders, it's giving me Content-Type text/html; charset=utf-8 23:55:10 jpcooper [n=user@cpc3-broo2-0-0-cust711.renf.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 23:55:17 -!- jpcooper [n=user@cpc3-broo2-0-0-cust711.renf.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:55:42 Hi, I am playing around with Weblocks to make web apps and am having trouble debugging a problem I am having. The Weblocks app runs in a separate thread (it uses hunchentoot) and one of my actions is causing something somewhere to hang, so I was wondering - do you guys have any suggestions for debugging something like this? Is there some way I could cause the program to break when it hangs and then step through the code (since I am not ab 23:56:34 phao_ [n=phao@20158174168.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:57:03 I grepped swank for *s-o*, and nothing turns up involving slime-net-coding 23:57:48 saikat, i've used this to "send" a break to a hung background thread; (sb-thread:interrupt-thread (thread-of *some-server*) (lambda () (break))) .. there might be better ways to do this though 23:59:20 -!- nurv101` [n=askmefor@81.193.35.139] has quit [Remote closed the connection]