00:00:09 do you think anything needs to be added? it is just a small utility 00:04:05 -!- appletizer [i=a@82-46-31-101.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:04:12 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.204.38] has joined #lisp 00:07:35 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 00:12:02 does sbcl.exe pass all the ansi-tests? 00:13:42 -!- sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:13:42 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:13:45 -!- akhilleus [n=joe@206.81.49.171] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:13:54 madnificent: Your s/ function looks a little odd to me... the overlap of A and B is indeed (A - (A - B)), but do you then subtract the rest? 00:14:27 akhilleus [n=joe@206.81.49.171] has joined #lisp 00:14:35 meingbg: thanks 00:14:57 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.204.38] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:15:15 I've built sequencify (for lists) and flatten (to speed up the generation process of lists for complicated sequences) 00:15:32 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 00:15:36 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:16:43 meingbg: does that mean that the code is actually understandable? 00:17:20 I'm certain it can be done much sweeter... yet I don't see how 00:18:28 sjbach [n=sjbach__@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:49 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.38] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:19:04 madnificent: It is very understandable. Only thing I stumbled on was that seq returned a function, and that was just because I didn't read it from top. 00:19:21 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:17 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5ad6b9b4.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 00:23:35 Jasko2, is CUSP working on recent abcls? 00:23:54 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-004-145.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:31 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:24:52 -!- tcr [n=tcr@p4FD3D183.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:25:32 phao [n=phao@189.13.131.116] has joined #lisp 00:29:38 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-213-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:30 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:34:46 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-054-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:59 <_3b> madnificent: i'd probably use CLOS for that instead of closures, then you could dispatch on 2 args and optimize cases like (s+ seq1 subset-of-seq1) -> seq1, instead of keeping both in the result, etc 00:37:11 dmiles_afk, I don't know. Haven't tried, but there's a good chance since it all goes through slime 00:38:23 _3b: it used to be in clos... but I experienced it as dirty (I pasted that earlier, I believe) 00:38:45 _3b: optimisations are in place now, examples are coming :) 00:38:59 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 00:39:15 <_3b> madnificent: ah, missed that :) 00:39:18 madnificent: I'd have used defstruct. :) 00:39:24 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 00:39:43 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska182223.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:42 <_3b> madnificent: (and (<= start x) (>= end x)) -> (<= start x end) ? 00:41:10 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:13 _3b: cute! 00:42:30 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska182223.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:43:15 madnificent annotated #71646 with "(incorporate-advise-from-lispers *simple-sequence*)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71646#3 00:43:55 _3b: missed the and, removing it too 00:45:38 <_3b> oh yeah, you use 'list sometimes, and 'listify sometimes 00:45:55 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska182223.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:46:50 _3b: which do you prefer.. I intended to use 'listify, but if I made many mistakes, it must be a hint 00:47:45 <_3b> don't think it matters too much, as long as it is consistent 00:48:07 <_3b> wouldn't want to add another option and have half of the old code suddenly stop working :) 00:49:11 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:49:13 yeah, thanks for getting the mistakes out :) 00:49:25 <_3b> i might try to avoid using it anywhere except the LISTIFY function anyway, and just call that instead of storing the closure and funcalling that directly 00:51:23 I have thought about it, but the way it is now, a smart compiler could take advantage of it. Although that will probably never happen. 00:52:57 I'm still trying to find the last occurrence of a substring with cl-ppcre .*? doesn't seem to work. Any ideas? 00:53:15 The string has multiple lines (may be important). 00:54:01 -!- rread [n=rread@c-76-102-10-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:17 cYmen: something like (car (last (cl-ppcre:scan-to-strings "your-regexp"))) 00:55:45 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 00:56:22 madnificent: It seems to return the first result only.. 00:56:33 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a1c68ed8904fcb6a] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:59:47 cYmen: sorry, all-matches-as-strings :) the rest stays the same 00:59:55 wasabi___ [n=wasabi@ntoska213089.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:02:06 shmho [n=user@58.142.35.171] has joined #lisp 01:02:53 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:58 last one, what is a safe license to use for a utility (safe being: something other people will accept AND I will not get sued over it) 01:03:23 mit-style 01:03:44 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska182223.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:03:46 madnificent: but all-matches-as-strings doesn't seem to support registers :) 01:04:23 cYmen: that's as far as my knowledge about it goes. 01:05:42 :) 01:05:45 thanks anyway 01:05:49 rread [n=rread@c-76-102-10-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:27 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska182223.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:10:44 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:55 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:15:36 meingbg, hefner, _3b: can I use these names in my initial commit message? or do you whish to stay unknown (or known by another name). 01:15:44 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 01:16:49 *_3b* has no objection 01:18:38 fine by me 01:20:50 dto: I'm gonna try and model my object system as closely to CLOS as possible, complete with separately-defined generic functions... 01:21:58 dto: and I think that some tweaking on the backend will plug a lot of the leaks involved with basing it on classes <_< 01:24:00 sykopomp is drunk with power 01:24:15 hefner: *cackles madly* 01:24:44 hefner: it's totally not gonna work, either, which is sad :( 01:25:05 the next step will be implementing a new language on top of CL, to address some shortcomings with respect to concurrency and persistence of your actors state 01:25:23 and then a month later you'll decide you need to do a native compiler if you ever hope to scale to thousands of users 01:25:36 but I already have a native compiler :( 01:25:55 a more native compiler 01:26:23 fooquux [n=fooquux@dhcp-128-171-68-114.moore.manoa.hawaii.edu] has joined #lisp 01:26:23 it doesn't get much more native than assembly 01:26:31 CL is not assembly :) 01:26:37 <_3b> then you need custom hardware 01:26:41 but sbcl compiles to assembly :) 01:26:44 oh, right. what _3b said. 01:26:54 oh, that's a good point 01:27:09 hefner: anyways, the object system isn't based to be instead-of CLOS 01:27:16 you'll have the world's first fpga-based mud engine. 01:27:25 imagine the power! 01:27:27 it's as-well-as CLOS, for a specific problem that CLOS isn't quite what I want. 01:27:46 and honestly, I care more about writing useful code than ever finishing the damn engine :P 01:27:55 <_3b> wizards who can rewire the CPU would be fun 01:28:14 _3b: we'll have them casting their SPELs in no time 01:28:48 eventually he'll burn out and take up LARPing 01:29:02 I did larping back in college, but don't tell anyone :D 01:29:18 hefner: why the hate? Where's the love for fun metaprogramming? :( 01:29:21 <_3b> ooh, and a robot body for the FPGA mud so it can play too? 01:29:31 sykopomp: oh, I'm just teasing. 01:29:35 ;_; 01:29:51 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E452C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:04 that's fine :P I don't actually know much of what I'm talking about. I'm just writing down pages of notes on what I want :-\ 01:31:36 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 01:31:51 -!- wasabi___ [n=wasabi@ntoska213089.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:32:12 -!- sbok [n=kobs@unaffiliated/kobs] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:32:22 in theory I'm a great advocate of the "just f***ing do it" philosophy of software development 01:32:45 -!- mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:32:48 -!- dublpaws [n=none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:32:56 but if that were true, and I could follow my own advice, I'd have been writing software real people use in C instead of screwing around with tools in CL for years 01:33:19 hefner: As soon as AMOP gets here, actually, but I have some time on my hands, so I'm planning stuff and reading about similar systems, figuring out what it is I might want. 01:33:43 but I can't effing do it until I have -some- ability to do so :P 01:34:08 sounds like fun. it's past time for a post-CLOS renaissance 01:34:14 sbok [n=kobs@you.cant.haxit.org] has joined #lisp 01:34:44 mqt [n=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:49 eh? I like CLOS, and I don't even remotely expect for whatever I write to be actually usable for anything but the simple thing I'm writing it for... 01:35:00 oh, I'm quite fond of CLOS. 01:35:43 I admit, though, I like seeing CL extended. Major extensions are neat, and I'm not terribly fond of keeping really really close to the standerd. 01:35:45 standard* 01:36:07 CL got to what it is because of variety, and while it's (mostly) a nice core, it could use more messing around. 01:36:44 yeah, but CL is ultimately a language for applications. 01:37:10 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:39:25 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-213-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:27 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:39:32 Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:40:30 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:40:50 ths_ [n=ths@X5b61.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:41:42 dublpaws [n=none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:43 *hefner* returns to fiddling with toolkit code with no envisioned application, furthering the hypocrisy 01:44:35 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E452C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:49:25 -!- ths [n=ths@X4607.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:49:28 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:46 how do I make minion say something when someone get's back in #lisp 01:50:10 -!- Kopophex [n=kopophex@dtp-1.dyn.cs.washington.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:50:16 minion, memo for hefner_: you've been made redundant 01:50:17 Remembered. I'll tell hefner_ when he/she/it next speaks. 01:50:17 hefner, memo from hefner: you've been made redundant 01:51:14 -!- phao [n=phao@189.13.131.116] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:51:53 minion, memo for vasa: The sequence utility has changed and is published now, check http://github.com/madnificent/cl-simple-sequence 01:51:53 Remembered. I'll tell vasa when he/she/it next speaks. 01:54:42 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 02:00:23 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-213-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 02:01:00 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:01:19 -!- mqt [n=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:01:28 me heads to bed, good luck all! 02:01:37 mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:29 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203.97.217.154] has quit ["shadowy in red silk"] 02:09:02 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:11:41 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:15:02 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:16:03 gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:37 sykopomp: cool :) 02:23:16 dto: I mean, in essence, I'm shooting myself in the foot :P 02:23:22 what do you mean 02:23:56 I don't know if it's possible, and I will probably have to snoop quite deep into the MOP to even start scratching the surface 02:24:13 and it also involves messing around with method dispatch, and there's a lot of questions about how to implement this stuff :-\ 02:26:29 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:10 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:27:52 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:30:17 i am a junkie 02:30:52 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:31:30 i ordered more RAM 02:33:28 -!- gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 02:33:37 gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:24 -!- gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:37:07 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-38-248.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:43:06 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1CF8A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:17 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1CBF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:36 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:43:54 trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-243-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:04 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:48:09 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.35.171] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:48:09 O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-38-248.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:55:44 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-38-248.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:59:03 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0DD1A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:08 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-213-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:59:31 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:59:38 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:00:06 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:00:21 jsoft [n=Administ@118-92-187-124.dsl.dyn.ihug.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:05:02 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:07:22 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p6108-ipbfp205kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:07:43 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:11 32 bit sbcl runs on vista 64 (it was not working under xp x64 last time i tried it) 03:08:33 SimonAdameit [n=simon@dialbs-088-079-103-130.static.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 03:08:47 Hi 03:11:13 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:11:28 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-212.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 03:11:30 Good morning. 03:11:39 it's like the andromeda strain hit here 03:12:09 manic12 did anything with that opengl code 03:12:14 crod [n=cmell@cad43e-206.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:12:17 -!- fooquux [n=fooquux@dhcp-128-171-68-114.moore.manoa.hawaii.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:12:33 did i do anything with that opengl code? 03:12:39 yep 03:12:55 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit ["leaving"] 03:12:59 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cad439-068.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:13:07 no :| 03:13:12 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:13:44 i just wrote the allegro version of an opengl listener 03:14:08 (a better version than the one i sent you) 03:14:34 -!- trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-243-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:14:39 ok 03:15:14 i'm feeling the need to buy a really nice video card now though 03:15:44 i'm poking larry malone to compile a mirai for windows x64 03:16:18 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 03:16:44 then i can plug in the listener right into the ui and not have thread-switching problems with opengl caused by running a listener in emacs 03:16:53 I have a problem using clbuild in slime 03:17:07 SimonAdameit pasted "slime-lisp-implementations" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71670 03:18:13 manic12 mirai is written in common lisp ? 03:18:20 yes 03:18:21 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C48F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:18:23 CLOS 03:18:34 and why arent they doing anything about it 03:18:37 executing the command from the shell fires up sbcl fine 03:18:39 last time i checked they werent even selling it 03:18:55 <_3b> SimonAdameit: does it work better if you break the string in slime-lisp-implementations into separate strings for each chunk? 03:19:08 it's a huge system and as far as i can tell, it's just larry developing it 03:19:36 <_3b> SimonAdameit: ("/home...clbuild" "--implementation" "sbcl" "lisp") 03:19:48 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 03:20:20 he hasn't answered my last email :( which was months ago 03:20:50 _3b: I did try some combinations of breaking but not that one 03:22:54 _3b: and that is the one that works, thanks! 03:25:18 xristos, you are a mac user, correct? 03:27:21 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:46 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:33:03 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:35:16 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:39:13 coffeemug [n=coffeemu@ool-45721918.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:49 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:43:40 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:43:54 skrit [n=skrit@cpe-76-88-49-7.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:44:20 coffeemug_ [n=coffeemu@ool-45721918.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:43 -!- coffeemug [n=coffeemu@ool-45721918.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:48:51 -!- coffeemug_ [n=coffeemu@ool-45721918.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:52:31 If I have a server that uses usocket, but want, say, a c++ program to talk to it, how do I hvae to format the output so usocket will be able to read it? 03:52:42 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 03:53:22 kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:07 Draggor: usocket just reads stuff out of the pipe 03:58:18 you can send binary data down the pipe 03:58:43 sykopomp: Well, I'm trying to just read strings at this point, and haven't quite figured that out 03:59:06 My first netcode ever was with usocket and using readlines 03:59:28 Draggor: if it's binary, you want to read octets as opposed to characters or strings. 03:59:42 if your stream is a string stream, you should be able to just read out of the stream once data is ready 03:59:47 I'm trying to send strings too I should add 03:59:53 otherwise, like beach says, you have to translate to/from octets 04:00:01 I suppose this is an issue of me not sending the data right 04:00:23 Draggor: do you want an example, or do you want to figure it out yourself? 04:00:29 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:03:36 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:04:03 Draggor: if you make your server socket with (usocket:socket-listen *address* *port* :element-type '(unsigned-byte 8)), you'll have a binary stream, and then it's just a matter of converting octets as you get them. 04:04:07 which is a lot easier than it sounds. 04:07:43 -!- patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:07:53 manic12 yes 04:09:47 Draggor if you want to send 'objects' down the wire, find a way to encode/decode them 04:12:24 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 04:14:43 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:59 -!- lexclose [n=wmarvel@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:00 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 04:17:25 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-317664e4b82ed66a] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:17:52 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:18:21 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:19:39 xristos: you can do that with some regular serialization thing, right? Like cl-store? 04:20:39 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p6108-ipbfp205kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 04:21:02 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:24:52 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-19df6602044406fc] has joined #lisp 04:24:59 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:25:11 I'm just trying to send strings back and forth in the easiest way possible, heh 04:26:53 Draggor: do you want an example of a server that uses usocket? :P 04:27:35 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:51 Sure, heh, probably will show me what I'm doing not so well now 04:28:14 http://github.com/sykopomp/sykosomatic/tree/master/src/network/server.lisp /client.lisp 04:28:22 you're probably doing fine 04:28:55 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 04:29:13 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:18 Oh you're using classes, I'm not even doing that, heh 04:29:38 the classes are only there to store the data 04:29:52 you could just as well slap that into a *listener-socket* variable 04:30:11 and have a list of clients 04:33:01 patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:09 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:35:19 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p6108-ipbfp205kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:44:15 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 04:55:07 -!- patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:56:48 patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:57 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 04:57:04 hm, is there no built in function for moving files? 04:57:20 rename-file doesn't work across filesystems, do I need to cook my own? 04:58:49 kleppari: the standard file frobbing functions are woefully underspecified, so you're probably better off using something else anyway 04:59:13 -!- SimonAdameit [n=simon@dialbs-088-079-103-130.static.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 05:01:53 It is not clear to me that a language specification should require the OS that runs it to have files at all. 05:02:38 lexclose [n=wmarvel@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:43 the effects of C being married to Unix, I guess? 05:02:55 Possibly, yes. 05:03:11 Though, Pascal had files as well. 05:03:19 beach is an optimist; the rest of us assume we're doomed to use unix and cpm derivatives for the rest of eternity 05:03:44 ..punishment for sins as yet undetermined. 05:05:17 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E43DA2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:51 hefner: Your gloomy predictions might indeed come true, but I don't like to assume they will. 05:07:21 hefner, CP/M? I thought VMS was the latest fashion? 05:07:25 (good morning) 05:07:30 hey tic 05:08:12 tic: Win is as VMS as CP/M can get. ;) 05:08:57 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 05:11:12 hefner: how is work on event-driven CLIM-fig going? 05:11:12 pkhuong: thanks. 05:11:15 -!- eliasm [n=eliasm@99.246.65.73] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:11:45 eliasm [n=eliasm@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:13:10 So, for command that expects an integer and displays an input asking for it, should it or should it not be focused by default? 05:14:19 beach: well, first I decided I'd start from a clean slate a make a toy editor for illustrating shapes with cubic splines. then I remembered vecto is too slow for interactive use, so if I wanted to see the drawing filled, I'd have to do a lot of raw clx/xrender stuff, and maybe I'd be better off not using CLIM at all. 05:14:50 beach: then I remembered I had some perfectly good pieces of something I could build an opengl gui on top of, and decided I'd put some work into that instead. 05:15:19 which is to say that I've already forgotten about it and progressed off on a tangent. 05:15:22 tic: commands shouldn't do that directly, but instead do an accept, preferably by just having typed parameters. 05:15:56 hefner: fair enough 05:16:20 beach, I think I don't express myself clearly enough. When I've pressed enter without having given the command an input, a small text box opens up. I'd like to be able to type in it directly, without having to click in it. 05:17:06 (and I wouldn't mind my Enter key defaulting to OK, but that's something else) 05:17:10 tic: Ah, OK. What application is that? 05:17:20 beach, the test CLIM example, the one with Parity and Quit. 05:17:25 fihi09` [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:32 -!- fihi09` [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 05:17:55 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:00 i.e. a very minimal one with a vertical layout consisting of an output pane and an input pane. 05:18:05 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has left #lisp 05:18:15 (I'm not really being fair to vecto or cl-vectors, and they are fast enough for very light interactive use, but not for repainting a complex drawing at >10 Hz) 05:19:27 I'm probably still not being fair to them with even that statement, but neither xach nor cods are around to protest :) 05:19:38 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E452C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:37 hefner: as I recall, cods confirmed that cl-vectors was never meant to be fast. 05:20:53 evening 05:20:57 tic: I don't know the answer to your question. I just can't imagine all possible cases. 05:21:02 hello slyrus_ 05:21:15 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:34 <_3b> all this talk about slow drawing code makes me want to try to optimize it :p 05:21:46 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:22:07 _3b: I don't tink it's hard, just tedious, to code. 05:22:08 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:29 beach, I'll try again: I type in the name of a command that expects a parameter, an integer, and press the enter key. A new input field is shown where I can type in the parameter and then click the OK button. However, in order to type anything into that input box, I need to _click_ inside it first. 05:22:31 <_3b> well, thats what metaprogramming is for 05:22:47 <_3b> (transforming things from tedious to hard that is) 05:22:48 _3b, Lisp: So meta you don't actually have to code? 05:23:03 <_3b> tic: not quite unfortunately :( 05:23:25 transforming from tedious to hard does not sound like an improvement 05:23:31 tic: I understand what you are saying, and I don't think it is reasonable to be required to click there first. 05:23:50 beach, so it is behaviour as intended, then? 05:23:53 *_3b* wonders how much of the vpri drawing code generation stuff would translate to lisp 05:23:54 god, tic, you're going on about that again? I thought we covered this yesterday. 05:24:07 tic: I didn't mean to say that. 05:24:17 hefner, the mind reading? I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic. 05:24:23 <_3b> hefner: if the total time is comparable, i'd rather have an interesting challenge than mindless typing :) 05:24:29 -!- crod [n=cmell@cad43e-206.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:24:53 banisterfiend [n=john@203.97.217.154] has joined #lisp 05:24:57 *tic* accepts the current state 05:25:24 _3b: I wrote the code to render a single scan line of a single triangle. It has a very large number of cases. 05:27:09 _3b: would you like me to paste the code? 05:27:28 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:35 <_3b> beach: if you like 05:28:10 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:28:16 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:28:29 *_3b* could use a break from tedious format translation code :p 05:28:34 beach pasted "Rendering a triangle" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71674 05:29:43 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203.97.217.154] has quit ["shadowy in red silk"] 05:30:43 banisterfiend [n=john@203.97.217.154] has joined #lisp 05:31:46 beach: that's quite a lot of stuff just to render a triangle :( 05:32:32 rasterization is tedious. 05:32:41 and then you add shading... 05:33:08 <_3b> then you let someone else add hardware, and it gets easier :p 05:33:49 <_3b> beach: is that doing partial coverage for AA? 05:35:00 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:15 howdy 05:35:30 hi fusss 05:35:43 hey tic 05:37:39 crod [n=cmell@cb8a94-005.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:39:46 there should be a plaque that reads "don't look stupid after publishing your benchmarks; make sure you compare apples with apples, or possibly another fruit or even any other edible object" 05:40:02 <_3b> fusss: yeah, that can be useful :) 05:40:39 someone posted ruby-on-javascript-vm benchmark that was "faster" than C 05:40:49 http://macournoyer.wordpress.com/2008/09/02/ruby-on-v8/ 05:40:54 fusss: strcat? that's pretty old. 05:41:04 hahaha, yeah 05:44:54 _3b: what do you think is the use of the "script" array in avm? script_info structs? I cann't for the life of me see how that's used 05:45:32 there is abc_file, which is the object that represents the input file, but it has an array of "scripts" 05:46:26 does that correspond with separate compilation units? I know it's not namespaces. say, a movie consists of various files, does each get a script info? hmmm 05:47:12 <_3b> i know at least the init is important, that is used to initialize the metaclasses defined in that file (or something like that) 05:48:22 <_3b> probbaly could put top-level code there too if you wanted 05:49:29 Riastrad1 [n=rias@pool-151-203-245-231.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:50:23 <_3b> can't quite pick out what if anything i'm putting into the script_info traits currently 05:50:52 upon load, the avm runs through the script array, ignoring all entries except that last. it reads the last entry, of type script_info, which has an initialization method for the program entry point. it says, all other initialization methods for other scripts read "on demand" 05:51:28 i think this might be used for run-time loaded "movies" 05:51:49 <_3b> could be, haven't experimented with it beyond hard coding enough to compile and run simple stuff 05:51:56 Flash has this neat dynamic-linking feature. you can load any remote resource with URLRequest; this might be for that. 05:52:23 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:52:24 <_3b> flash also has lots of neat 'doesn't do what the spec says' features too :p 05:52:35 haha 05:52:58 <_3b> though at least i found out how to get more info out of it when the verifier dies 05:53:36 you managed to kill the verifier? heh 05:53:59 <_3b> i mean when it rejects the file, not crashes (though flash crashes often enough anyway) 05:54:26 <_3b> it doesn't seem to like reloading a file if i changed .swf version # in the file since last time i loaded it 05:54:49 _3b: yes 05:55:24 hey beach 05:55:50 hello fusss 05:57:01 _3b: do you know what the vector looking thing is in method signatures in swfdump? method [package]::String [package]::displayObjectToString= () [4 6 3 4 0] <--this last part 05:58:19 flex itself has allot of cruft. really yucky object "embedding" syntax and semantics 05:58:35 -!- Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:01:27 <_3b> fusss: dunno, can't find anything like that in my dumps 06:01:35 you can do something to the effect of (progn (load-image "foo.png") (defclass MyFoto (standard-object) ..) ... see how the load operation and the class definition are unrelated? well, flex is context sensitive, (type-of (make-instance 'myfoto)) => Bitmap! 06:01:54 bizarre stuff 06:02:05 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-151-203-198-69.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:02:31 my 1TB harddrive is the exact same dimensions as my 60gb hd.. but it does feel at least 10 times heaver 06:02:52 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47BF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:36 grr. why, in 2008, is the text editor drawing a white background underneath its characters, obscuring the (non-white) background? 06:04:35 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:04:35 underneath or behind? 06:04:56 what's the difference? 06:05:07 underneath == x-axis, behind == z :-) 06:05:32 underneath your feet, behind your back, etc. 06:06:14 by that logic, underneath would be the y-axis. 06:06:35 and yet I suspect you know exactly what I meant. 06:06:37 dmiles_afk, more platters. 06:06:43 Hi I am confused. I have a vector of lists, and when I (map 'vector #'reverse *my-vector*), I just get an empty vector of the length of *my-vector* 06:07:18 define ``empty vector''. 06:07:21 from clhs, it seems like I should get a vector of each reversed list. 06:07:37 hefner: i really didn't. if an editor is drawing a white line underneath your text, that's a nice shadow, or a weird underline. if it's drawing a white plane behind your text, well, that's just stupid of the editor. 06:07:56 a simple-vector, dimensions 0, element type t, adjustable nil, fill pointer nil. 06:08:50 my vector is element type t, dimensions 5, adjustable t, fill pointer 0. 06:08:53 since you said it's the same length as *my-vector*, I don't see the problem; *my-vector* is just a simple-vector of 0 elements too. 06:09:04 fusss: I'll assume this is part of its high optimized screen repainting procedure, nevermind my holy war to replace every "erase" operation in mcclim (consisting of a filled rectangle in the background color) with a proper repaint 06:09:32 pkhuong: I was wrong about it being the same length as my-vector. in my-vector, the first two slots are two-element lists. 06:09:41 no big deal, just limits my options as far as making the accept-values dialogs less hideous goes 06:09:42 anyway, try posting some code and what you observe. 06:10:20 tic, wasnt meant for #lisp. but indeed it really is amazingly heavy.. i wonder if they really did fit in as many platters as could fit into the encosure - where they are getting close to being solid 06:10:49 dmiles_afk, something like that, seems to have hit a limit on the data density of those things, even with perpendicular storage. 06:10:57 hefner: good luck mate, sorry, pedantry can't help mcclim, or me for that matter, look better ;-) 06:11:09 _my_ pedantery 06:11:46 mogunus pasted "confused" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71678 06:12:17 That, in a nutshell, is what is going wrong. 06:12:58 mogunus: fill-pointer 0. 06:13:19 That vector's length is currently 0. 06:14:28 pkhuong: ahh, thanks. 06:19:12 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E43DA2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:25:55 I've said it before, but all this code generation in mcclim/command.lisp is just awful 06:28:16 Is it an implementation thing or is it required by the spec? 06:28:27 aside from being a hassle to modify, I wonder how much code bloat this sort of code generation contributes taken across the whole system 06:34:07 beach: no, it requires an argument parser be defined, but not the specifics. it'd be better to have the generated functions all call some helper which can interpret the arguments, rather than generating code, if anyone ever feels like reworking it. 06:34:39 Yes, I see. 06:35:18 I complain about this once every two or three years, when I want to modify the command processor. :) 06:38:07 -!- doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:38:53 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 06:40:36 *hefner* wonders if the spec requires the default text family to be :fixed 06:49:48 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:54:12 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:52 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:58:22 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:59:19 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 06:59:29 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:16 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 07:02:26 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 07:02:28 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 07:10:19 bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 07:10:30 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 07:10:30 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:12:00 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:52 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 07:14:53 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 07:15:38 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:18:05 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 07:18:25 so, the immediate downside of selecting the first field of the accepting values dialog when it appears is that it becomes impossible to cancel the thing :) 07:19:53 nozddd [n=nozddd@p4239-ipbf1008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:24:21 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:24:24 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 07:24:29 what does CLOS use for classes' slots? a regular list? 07:24:43 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 07:25:00 sykopomp: I would think a vector by default. 07:26:18 sykopomp: It depends on the CLOS implementation of course. 07:26:31 I wonder what sbcl uses, then. Hrm. 07:26:41 but thank you :) 07:26:53 sykopomp: why do you ask? 07:27:30 mostly curiosity. It occurs to me that classes aren't object magic, so they have to store the list of slots somehow. 07:27:43 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:27:57 Oh, do you mean in the class meta object, or in the instance? 07:28:33 there's a difference? 07:29:01 does the metaobject uses lists for simplicity? 07:29:34 sykopomp: the class metaobject has a representation of compile-time aspects of the slots such as the name, the type, etc. The instance object contains the runtime value. 07:29:45 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 07:30:48 sykopomp: I suggest you read the AMOP (and I did and now I can't remember), but if I were to do it, I would use something simple like a list for the slots in the class metaobject and a vector in each instance for speed. 07:31:08 beach: anxiously waiting for it to arrive, actually. Should be here sometime next week, I hope. 07:33:07 *tic* tries out compute-slots 07:33:41 iirc, closette uses lists 07:33:52 dunno about pcl 07:34:43 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a94-005.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:35:03 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a94-005.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:35:14 make-array for allocate-slot-storage, and find/position is used to find a particular slot. (skimming through the AMOP) 07:36:48 sykopomp: good luck with amop. chapters 5 and 6 are the metaobject protocol specs. earlier chapters show the internals of clos mop; the index is very handy. 07:36:57 hrr4 [n=user@217.194.139.3] has joined #lisp 07:38:15 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:38:16 i found a problem-oriented approach towards AMOP is the most profitable; ask a question and then find out the answer. reading it front to back is not exactly a breeze. 07:38:37 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:39:10 UnwashedMeme1 [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:01 I recommend reading Sonya's book (or be very comfortable with CLOS) before reading AMOP. 07:41:05 I'm kind-of reading it front-to-back to get a better understanding, but in some cases I skip the details. The advantage in reading the book is that you can find exciting problems to solve simply by knowing what is possible. :-) 07:41:09 I tend to agree. I had problems the first time I attempted reading the AMOP, probably because of lack of knowledge about CLOS. The second time was much better. 07:41:37 (of course, you should assume everything /is/ possible... but it's just so much easier when you have /some/ constraints to work in) 07:42:18 incidently, that's how I felt about Lisp at a start. A vocabulary about as large as a dictionary. :) 07:43:21 *tic* makes a fool out of himself once again.... 07:43:25 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 07:44:10 -!- bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:44:40 ro0tSlinky [n=Chip_Wid@29.245.100.97.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:45:21 milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.25] has joined #lisp 07:45:52 beach, pardon my lazyness, but does gsharp have some sort of midi connectivity? 07:47:30 tic: Yeah, M-x play segment (you need to have Timidity installed) 07:48:10 beach, cool. 07:49:34 it's really encouraging to see artists who are not afraid to use non-mainstream software, and sometimes making their own tools 07:50:23 Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:50:38 That is exceptional though. Most of the ones I know pay a fortune for a ripoff called Protools. 07:50:51 when you say 'should be familiar with CLOS', do you mean 'know how to use it in a regular app, and a few things about how all the class and method stuff works'? 07:50:58 or significantly more than that? 07:51:17 sykopomp, I think that's enough. 07:51:48 lisp is a scary beast. Sometimes I wonder if I'll ever actually know all of it. 07:51:54 :( 07:51:58 It takes a minute to learn, but a life time to master. 07:52:37 beach: gsharp is supposed to do what protools does? huh? 07:53:00 sykopomp: No, not at all. 07:53:10 oh, I was confused 07:53:38 sykopomp: I am just thinking that if I were a Protools user, I would probably gang up with a dozen or so composers and pay someone to write a free clone. It would be much cheaper. 07:53:41 sykopomp: it helps if you know you slot and class options thoroughly, know what :allocation, :default-initargs and :metaclass are, in addition to the other options you frequently use 07:54:27 beach: every few months, an experimental DJ shows up with an Amiga on stage 07:55:06 fusss: Impressive. 07:56:16 beach: or this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SuperCollider#Notable_users 07:56:23 I wonder if a model where a group of 5-8 programmers go around hacking up various custom apps for people would work. 07:56:25 hmmmm 07:56:30 -!- UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:58:03 fusss: nice. 07:59:01 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 07:59:50 sykopomp: pair programming, don't want 08:00:14 tcr [n=tcr@p4FD3F814.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:15 fusss: I'm thinking more like "here, you write this huge module, I'll take care of the rest of it" 08:00:16 -!- ro0tSlinky [n=Chip_Wid@29.245.100.97.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:00:31 fusss: also, I see a pattern. Every single CS class I've taken has tried to get me to pair program. 08:00:35 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 08:00:38 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 08:00:49 it's a growing pattern. They've all talked about XP and made it sound like the greatest-thing-ever, too. 08:02:00 they did that with me in chemistry class, "here, share this microscope" 08:03:14 too bad, everyone i paired with had a different vision than i, and we wasted zooming in and out after one of us looked at the organism in the petri dish 08:03:28 waste ^time 08:04:21 you need a team to do anything substantial, but you don't need tobe "going around". on person talks to the client and relays the spec to the group. 08:04:32 -!- pwned [n=epitaph@88.251.69.159] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:04:40 pwned_ [n=epitaph@88.251.69.159] has joined #lisp 08:04:55 pair programming can be nice. 08:05:10 I agree with tic. I've seen some cases where it's actually nice. 08:05:10 I think it is wrong to make a knee-jerk reaction about it. 08:05:44 I'm annoyed because putting two equally-skilled, inexperienced people at the keyboard and telling them to hack something up is, imo, terrible. 08:05:58 it's really not a knee jerk. it depends on the two halves of the pair and how well they match 08:06:06 it turns into a stressful experience, because at that stage it takes a long time to get through trivial problems, and this echo loop of frustration forms. 08:06:39 fusss, well yes. I find it helpful when dealing with hard problems. Routine coding is better checked by the compiler than the partner. 08:07:03 at work we get into ad-hoc pair programming sessions once in a while. 08:07:56 fusss: anyways, what I was mostly wondering about is whether it would be possible to form a small gang of roaming internet CL hackers that can go around finding people who want small-to-medium-size apps 08:07:58 tiento [n=user@190.161.24.77] has joined #lisp 08:08:14 sykopomp, it's called "consulting" ;) 08:08:16 and then hacking together a BSD/GPLd version (if client agrees), which would in turn benefit cliki/cl.net/etc 08:08:25 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p6108-ipbfp205kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:08:33 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.25] has quit [No route to host] 08:08:54 tic: well, yes, but it would be more for the purpose of gathering small bits and pieces of useful code that could then help strengthen the selection of useful lisp apps 08:08:57 sykopomp: that's actually a good idea, and you _should_ have a team, of your own selection. 08:08:59 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 08:09:10 sykopomp, yah. 08:09:22 and this would probably be more internet-oriented than my current image of consulting (small local group) 08:09:26 sykopomp: atilla and his crew are like that :-) 08:09:36 that sounds great :D 08:09:50 how is it working out for them? 08:09:53 bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 08:10:18 i know it's working out great for me 08:10:27 sykopomp: how much do you think that would cost? 08:11:04 -!- tiento [n=user@190.161.24.77] has left #lisp 08:11:06 i was in a meeting today and called up tech coop. Drew set me up a host. I contacted him few days earlier and we discussed a possible future work together :-) 08:11:06 Jarvellis: what would cost? Organizing a couple of already-known internet chumps and having each one trying to find business in their areas, then pooling teh work and spitting out useful apps? 08:11:22 tiento [n=user@190.161.24.77] has joined #lisp 08:11:22 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45C1B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:57 drewc's pretty great. I need to get cracking on LoL as soon as I finish AMOP (and this semester... two mork weeks (thank god(s))) 08:12:12 s/mork/more/ 08:12:30 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has left #lisp 08:13:11 sykopomp: nevermind sorry, silly question 08:14:12 sykopomp: look at startuply, lotsa projects that are very lisp friendly. great many of them actually ask for lisp experience. 08:15:55 *sykopomp* needs to get some real experience. Has only a miserly BA in film, and about a year's worth of hacking time. 08:15:56 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:16:05 McDonald's it is for now >_> 08:16:22 that was my first job :-) 08:16:51 it's depressing to not really be able to find decent employment after 4 years of torture :P 08:16:53 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 08:17:51 you're looking at it wrong, hermano 08:18:08 but that conversation would be too offtopic for #lisp :-P 08:18:55 -!- nozddd [n=nozddd@p4239-ipbf1008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:20:00 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p6108-ipbfp205kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:20:14 elurin [n=user@78.166.101.138] has joined #lisp 08:20:16 -!- tiento [n=user@190.161.24.77] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:21:03 g'day 08:21:13 g'day schme 08:21:18 good afternoon, schme. 08:21:19 Why hello there fusss 08:21:28 and hello tic. afternoon? 08:21:48 schme, you've been up for over five hours, so... 08:22:37 Actually no. I just woke up. My incident last tuesday has fucked up my sleeping schedule. 08:23:58 I still would not call anything before 12:00 afternoon :P 08:24:11 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p6108-ipbfp205kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:24:25 schme, I'm sorry. Hope you get well soon. 08:24:29 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47BF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:24:54 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 08:25:21 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:25:45 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:30 tic: Thanks, mate! But it's no problem really. I had a bad aching of the head for two days that's all, but it whacked all my sleeping plans right out the window. All that is left now is that my lip hurts when I smile :) 08:26:44 schme, no smileys for you! 08:26:55 But it is all good. plus three days off of work, which I assume the dope fiend will have to refund me for. 08:27:05 ach. I smile all the time. I laugh in my sleep too. 08:27:06 hehehe. 08:27:17 It has totally disturbed my motivation to hack code though. 08:27:22 3 totally wasted days. 08:27:49 Ugh. Life without code is like eggs without salt. 08:28:23 :) 08:28:30 So you mean quite good then? 08:28:39 (salt is disgusting) 08:28:47 I actually prefer my eggs without salt :P 08:28:53 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has left #lisp 08:28:55 Me too, and raw. 08:29:09 Hopefully I'll fire up the old SLIME today and get some work done. 08:29:33 Maybe with pepper on. 08:31:20 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:31:37 *beach* is invited to "christmas lunch" today by the Swedish and Danish consulate. 08:31:47 Uh oh. 08:31:50 Run away. 08:31:51 -!- bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:31:54 well, "invited" was an exaggeration. It conts money. 08:32:04 "julbord" ? 08:32:13 schme: don't think so, no. 08:32:23 phew. 08:32:41 It's a Danish caterer who has a shop here in Bx. 08:32:59 Oh nice. 08:33:09 What do you guys do when you lose all motivation to write code for a few days? 08:33:41 schme: Not much to do. And to me it can be a matter of months sometimes. 08:33:51 ouch. 08:34:53 One thing I am trying to do is to work on a thing that takes relatively little time, like creating a glyph, or documenting a function. Sometimes that makes motivation come back. 08:35:21 There's an idea. 08:37:49 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has joined #lisp 08:38:00 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 08:42:01 Thas1 [n=weechat@97-113-38-116.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:42 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 08:45:02 nostoi [n=nostoi@193.152.186.141] has joined #lisp 08:47:22 ksp11 [n=paul@BAA4899.baa.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 08:49:14 -!- tcr [n=tcr@p4FD3F814.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:52:33 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 08:55:06 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 08:55:39 -!- Thas [n=weechat@97-113-38-116.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:04:05 nite folks 09:04:08 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 09:04:09 nite :) 09:04:22 schme: too slow! zing! 09:04:29 Hoh? 09:04:44 I am? :( 09:04:49 yes 09:04:54 Darned. 09:07:45 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:40 dabd [n=dabd@213.22.161.42] has joined #lisp 09:16:46 schme, I play instruments or dancing games when I lack motivation to code. 09:16:58 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.251.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:17:15 dancing games? 09:17:53 We tried playing spore yesterday. What a shitty game! 09:18:02 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:18:33 schme, InTheGroove2. Similar to DanceDanceRevolution (but better). 09:19:21 never heard of any of those. 09:19:39 But I will google 09:20:01 itg is an inferior ddr 09:20:46 when you don't have 3rd-rate crappy mix cd jpop and britney spears covers, it just isn't quite as entertaining. 09:20:51 That looks crazy. 09:21:01 Great exercise. 09:21:33 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:01 schme, e.g. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5O0u_bbNHME 09:22:57 oh yes, the classic ITG bar-rape. trademark of the ITGer 09:23:05 *sykopomp* goes to bed. 09:23:06 *tic* does _not_ use the bar! 09:23:34 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:23:57 tic: That is not what I would consider great exercise, but thanks :) 09:24:05 It reminds me of those horrible wii sports! 09:24:07 my god! 09:24:10 -!- kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["bye"] 09:24:13 the boxing game drove me crazy! 09:24:22 aah. clisp build failed :( 09:25:03 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.237.31] has joined #lisp 09:25:08 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@193.152.186.141] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:30:40 -!- elurin [n=user@78.166.101.138] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:33:01 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 09:37:27 mulligan [n=user@e178059093.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:46:38 lichtblau [n=user@pD95406E0.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:53:45 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:53:56 Balooga_ [n=luke@65.111.175.229] has joined #lisp 09:55:16 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.237.31] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:55:17 besiria [n=user@ppp083212085113.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 09:55:22 ejs [n=eugen@92.49.237.31] has joined #lisp 10:04:19 -!- ksp11 [n=paul@BAA4899.baa.pppool.de] has quit [] 10:04:22 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:05:53 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:09:03 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 10:13:17 user__ [n=user@p54926DDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:14:35 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212085113.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:17:55 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:17:59 hello 10:18:04 user pasted "how can you set the sb-ext:process-output stream format of sb-ext:run-program?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71684 10:19:05 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:19:14 i would like to retry with latin-1 10:21:33 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:21:47 chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has joined #lisp 10:24:09 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:25:10 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:27:08 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 10:27:49 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:28:31 sinistral_ [n=mnd@dsl-245-130-205.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:29:36 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:30:42 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:30:43 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:31:10 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 10:31:54 -!- sinistral_ [n=mnd@dsl-245-130-205.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 10:32:04 user__: can't you just open it with latin-1 in the first place? 10:32:40 user__: if not, you can use flexistreams that allow you to change the encoding on the fly. 10:33:23 beach: "in the first place"? sorry, i dont understand 10:33:44 user__: when you open the stream, you can use :external-format :latin-1 or something like that. 10:34:40 beach: oh yes, i tried external-format, but its illegal with the sb-ext:run-program all (unknown) 10:34:50 s/all/call/ 10:35:04 I see. 10:36:10 beach: i go learning flexistreams, thank you 10:36:12 user__: run-program says you can either give it a pathname or a stream. Could you not open the file first, and give it the open stream with the right external-format? 10:38:32 beach: i seem to have some sort of blockade right know, i put it down and rethink later 10:40:13 Not a problem for me. 10:48:08 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:18 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203.97.217.154] has quit ["shadowy in red silk"] 11:04:52 -!- user__ [n=user@p54926DDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:06:32 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:06:53 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:08:00 -!- pwned_ [n=epitaph@88.251.69.159] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:09:11 sinistral-daemon [n=mnd@dsl-245-130-205.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:16:09 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-19-17.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:16:20 replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-131-214.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:16:24 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A6C3.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:21:32 filcab42 [n=filcab@bl10-159-31.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:21:50 -!- filcab42 [n=filcab@bl10-159-31.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 11:23:15 banisterfiend [n=john@203.97.217.154] has joined #lisp 11:23:46 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 11:24:44 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:25:15 prxq [n=mommer@BAI3cd9.bai.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 11:26:17 greetings all ... i've been working through the cffi tutorial chapter and i've hit a problem. 'cl-gardeners' is pretty quiet, so i hope there's no objection to me asking in here for an assist... 11:26:35 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3132.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 11:27:29 elurin [n=user@78.166.101.138] has joined #lisp 11:27:32 -!- elurin [n=user@78.166.101.138] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:28:15 elurin [n=user@78.166.101.138] has joined #lisp 11:28:34 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:28:35 prxq pasted "strange error with sbcl and slime" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71686 11:28:53 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 11:30:15 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 11:30:43 i'm on MacOS X, using SBCL ... i've followed all the steps in the manual to load and define a foreign library (libcurl), but the 'defcfun' of 'curl_global_init' raises an 'undefined alien' warning from SBCL. 11:31:37 this happens erratically. I have a long running, number crunching app that does not do any input processing, and found this after looking for progress many hours after starting it. 11:31:43 any ideas? 11:33:07 -!- hrr4 [n=user@217.194.139.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:33:37 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:33:43 Tordek_ [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 11:33:47 i've followed all the steps to access 'strlen' in 'stdlib', and that all works fine ... so i'm not sure what the problem is with libcurl. 11:35:06 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 11:35:33 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92.49.237.31] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:36:04 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@ti0026a340-0013.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 11:36:19 prxq: I don't have an idea about the error -- assuming background process is still running but there is a problem with SLIME -- but you should be to reconnect the running lisp instance. 11:38:20 how big is a cons cell in, say, SBCL? 11:38:23 vy: This morning the app process was not running. I did hit '0' in the error buffer and it continued. A few hours later I had the same error, but the app process kept running. You think it is a slime problem? 11:38:26 (I mean size in bytes now) 11:38:38 mathrick: depends on the platform iirc 11:38:57 prxq: well, x86 / x86_64? 11:39:49 prxq: I'm having similar problems for long running SLIME sessions and I generally fix the problem by reconnecting through M-x slime. 11:41:20 vy: aha... so you just ignore the error and do M-x slime? 11:42:12 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:43:44 prxq: If pressing `0' doesn't work, yep. 11:44:04 I see. 11:44:16 -!- te [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-9347f02f758352cf] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:44:23 good to know that that works. thanks. 11:44:52 prxq: The problem is that I couldn't produce a reproduciable case to submit a bug report. But if you can, do so. 11:45:39 I will slim down the code and see if it reproduces the problem. 11:46:31 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:50:42 -!- Thas1 is now known as Thas 11:51:50 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:53:21 Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has joined #lisp 11:59:57 sinistral-daemon pasted "cffi error: libcurl, sbcl, macosx; repl trace" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71688 12:02:15 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 12:05:23 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:06:40 -!- replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-131-214.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:08:27 if I have a special variable, how can I find out if someone has bound a value to it? 12:12:32 clhs boundp 12:12:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_boundp.htm 12:12:39 ty 12:13:23 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:14:22 thibault [n=thibault@81.130.206.167] has joined #lisp 12:14:40 -!- thibault [n=thibault@81.130.206.167] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:21:39 -!- elurin [n=user@78.166.101.138] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:21:41 hi guys. how do I enable (textmate-style) automatic parens closing in emacs? 12:22:17 purpose: lisp hacking, of course. 12:22:47 maybe paredit or redshank is what you want? 12:23:03 Dynetrekk: IIRC, paredit does what you want. 12:23:27 vy: uhm... I'm an emacs newbie. how do I use it? 12:24:07 Dynetrekk: See the very first lines of comments in http://mumble.net/~campbell/emacs/paredit.el 12:24:16 thanks 12:24:56 Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:41 vy: it is running. Let's see what happens. 12:26:10 prxq: Do you use SBCL? 12:26:22 vy: I was sure I saw some config option simpler than that in emacs? just hit C-c C-f M-xyz do-something-awsome or something similar 12:26:38 vy: yes. 12:26:58 version 1.0.22 on x86, to be exact 12:27:15 prxq: Actually, I suspect it to be some sort of SBCL gotcha related with ignoring some sort of signal triggered by the system. 12:29:04 Dynetrekk: Not one I know of. BTW, IMHO using C-M-f, C-M-b, C-a, and C-e in a practical manner gives the same efficiency as some other tool would give. 12:29:52 vy: yeah, sure. I just wanted emacs to insert a closing paren when I write the starting one, 'cause I'm used to that. 12:32:34 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:35:23 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.137.227] has left #lisp 12:35:29 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 12:41:46 vasa [n=vasa@mm-58-91-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 12:44:06 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.166.206] has joined #lisp 12:44:19 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:44:48 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5edd.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 12:45:50 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 12:53:39 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:00:51 mib_qocf7k [i=dd127373@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e118386390481c76] has joined #lisp 13:01:07 mib_sl0r3t [i=d2fdcab6@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4f1c6eca0cade727] has joined #lisp 13:01:16 aka-aka [i=dba322f1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bc80f99a40333415] has joined #lisp 13:01:17 Does anybody have an idea why this: (funcall (create-scanner "log\\[\\d*\\]\\[1\\] = \\\"([^\\\"]*)\\\";" :multi-line-mode t) *stuff*) yields a SB-KERNEL:NIL-ARRAY-ACCESSED-ERROR? 13:02:41 trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-243-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:03 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 13:04:29 -!- trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-243-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:04:50 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:04:56 g000001 [n=g000001@ha162.opt2.point.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:06:36 sinistral-daemon annotated #71688 with "resolved" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71688#1 13:07:59 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3132.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:08:29 -!- mib_qocf7k [i=dd127373@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e118386390481c76] has left #lisp 13:09:18 mib_qocf7k [i=dd127373@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e118386390481c76] has joined #lisp 13:09:38 -!- mib_qocf7k [i=dd127373@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e118386390481c76] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:12:27 slom [n=slom@pD9EB60F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:34 anyone tell me how to make a list of integers? like haskell's [2..7] or python's range(2,7) 13:14:26 (loop for i from 2 upto 7 collecting i) 13:14:34 or something with series. 13:14:40 or IOTA 13:14:49 if the lib has IOTA 13:16:49 -!- sinistral-daemon [n=mnd@dsl-245-130-205.telkomadsl.co.za] has left #lisp 13:16:55 phao [n=phao@189.13.109.91] has joined #lisp 13:16:55 tic: that hard?.... *disappointed* 13:17:10 alexandria:iota 13:17:34 Dynetrekk, write a function, done, next 13:17:44 lispm: clever 13:18:33 (defun range (start end) (loop for i from start to end collecting i)) ; .... 13:19:01 tic: I was trying just that... fails to compile, I'll have to think a bit 13:19:08 (I'm a newbie, I admit) 13:19:12 what's in the language (+ its standard library) out-of-the-box ain't that interesting, Dynetrekk 13:19:27 Dynetrekk, that exact definition works fine for me. 13:19:33 lnostdal: ah.. more like C in that sense 13:19:36 (note that 20 is inclusive) 13:19:42 tic: I'd just like to write it myself and understand etc 13:19:51 tic: I'm not doubting your functions functionality :) 13:19:57 Dynetrekk, are you reading Practical Common Lisp? 13:19:59 Dynetrekk, not exactly .. C is hard to extend language-wise .. 13:20:28 lnostdal: granted tic: yeah, but it doesn't always describe what I want to do, and I get tired of all the bloody CD collection examples 13:20:29 Dynetrekk, try adding a FOR keyword to a C that misses it 13:20:48 lnostdal: # define something I guess, but I don't like C much 13:20:49 Dynetrekk, then try the same thing in CL 13:20:59 lnostdal: yeah, I read that stuff in pcl :) 13:21:05 Dynetrekk, what about my definition of RANGE did you find hard to understand? Maybe I can help you. 13:21:55 tic: thanks man! well, I don't understand lisp's "loop language". as I said, I just read about it in pcl, but it mostly lists stuff that's too easy (dotimes, e.g.) 13:22:24 Dynetrekk, that's because LOOP is magic. Case in point, the chapter "LOOP for black belts" in PCL... 13:22:36 (i said it wrong at the start .. what's in a language's _standard library_ is what's not that interesting; the "programmability" of CL is part of the language itself, so yeah .. anyway .. :)) 13:22:38 tic: I see... hehe 13:22:38 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:22:53 Dynetrekk: i suggest that if you want to work a lot with ranges that you use series. in python the range stuff is generator-based so you're not actually constructing lists most of the time, you're using iterators. series is the CL equivalent and is very powerful. 13:22:54 lnostdal, like the new WITH keyword in Python. 13:22:58 lnostdal: with a programmable programming language, it's kinda hard to be precise... hehe 13:23:16 Dynetrekk: (series:scan-range :from 2 :upto 7) ; => #Z(2 3 4 5 6 7) 13:23:52 locklace: so, I want to write the bloody factorial function, divided by a smaller factorial.. i .e. n * (n-1)*... * (k+1) * k 13:24:10 is it possible to bind a place to a variable so that (when (test-something (place)) (setf (place) something-else)) isn't so annoying, repetitive and inefficient? 13:24:26 Dynetrekk: what does that have to do with ranges? 13:24:45 locklace: I could loop over the bloody thing, like in python: for i in xrange(10): 13:24:48 koning_r1bot, when-let in Alexandria is quite close i think 13:25:35 hm .. or maybe not quite 13:25:47 write a macro! 13:26:01 yeah i suppose i should 13:26:51 Dynetrekk: you could but it's silly 13:26:53 i wonder if the interpreter would optimize such things away though 13:27:05 locklace: in python it's not :) 13:27:13 Dynetrekk: (defun factorial (n) (labels ((f (n a) (if (zerop n) a (f (1- n) (* n a))))) (f n 1))) 13:27:17 locklace: as previously stated, I'm an unlisped person 13:27:40 locklace: oh fuck. in such a powerful language, you need all that for a factorial? 13:27:43 Dynetrekk, there are some nice books for beginners 13:28:00 baal5084 [n=baal@softbank218129175013.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:07 "all that" ? 13:28:15 Dynetrekk there are a lot of ways to write a factorial 13:28:15 lispm: yeah, pcl. but I don't want to read it all, so I ask some things that I don't readily find 13:28:20 lispm: sure 13:28:27 koning_r1bot: why do you call it repetitive ? you can't make it much shorter than that 13:28:34 lispm: just might as well calculate euler's gamma function 13:28:47 tomsw [n=user@85.138.148.124] has joined #lisp 13:29:48 Dynetrekk, it's not that Common Lisp is the shortest for small functions (unless you use some tricks) 13:30:10 You could invent a reader macro for ranges. 13:30:25 lispm: I'm sure there is a shorter way in lisp as well. a range func and a fold sounds like all I need to me 13:30:25 Common Lisp has long identifiers and some basic machinery that is not character count optimized 13:30:36 lispm: I see 13:30:50 how about (let-place ((place (cadadadr (etc)))) (when (test-something place) (setf place something-else))) 13:31:01 Common LIsp is stays 'short' for medium sized functionality 13:31:15 lispm: I see 13:31:32 plus Common Lisp gets radically short for larger things, due to code compression via macros 13:32:02 lispm: yeah, so I heard 13:32:39 lispm: but what is lisp's major advantage over a similar language? haskell has some nice properties, for example 13:32:40 imagine all that that boilerplate in Java (xml and the like) can be replaced by Lisp code 13:32:59 Dynetrekk, Haskell and Lisp are not very similar at all. 13:33:03 Haskell is nice, but very different 13:33:23 tic: well, functions are treated with decency in both, compared to a lot of languages 13:33:49 Tordek__ [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 13:33:49 Dynetrekk, so also in C with function pointers. 13:34:08 tic: those seem like a lot of work.. 13:34:41 Dynetrekk, not at all. just slightly cumbersome syntax when accepting a function as a parameter. 13:34:44 haskell has functions as "primitives" 13:34:56 okay, I might have to look at it at some point then 13:34:57 Chronona1t [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:27 Dynetrekk: Haskell's object system is quite different from CL's. and Haskell seems shit if you don't want to do functional programming, while CL lets you do that just fine. 13:35:41 Dynetrekk: And it's an odd comparision anyway :) 13:35:50 schme_, Haskell's object system? Talking about O'Haskell now? 13:35:51 schme_: I take your word for it ;) 13:35:55 Haskell is all about lazy functional programming and is optimized for that 13:36:02 tic: No. the normal class system in normal haskell. 13:36:07 tic: you still have lists etc... 13:36:19 schme_, that's not about objects, but types. 13:36:28 tic: Yes, I use the wrong terminology, of course. 13:36:32 schme_, ugh. nevermind. :) 13:36:40 (but my english is not very good anyway, so that is common) :) 13:36:42 Dynetrekk, sure. but your arguments were wrong. :-) 13:37:12 tic: allright, I give up :P wait a few years and I'll learn some more and then I'll argue you into your socks 13:37:20 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:37:26 What for? 13:37:33 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:37:34 Dynetrekk, doesn't take that long. and no need to argue! hack and learn. 13:37:43 Dynetrekk, don't wait, read some Lisp books 13:37:45 I don't think many people are here to argue the benefits over X vs. Y. 13:37:47 indeed... hehe 13:37:59 schme_: just to argue, then? 13:38:12 Argue over what though? 13:38:12 in particular, #lisp is very little about C, Haskell, etc, and a lot more about Common Lisp. 13:38:24 tic: sure 13:38:29 Haskell is great for writing haskell. 13:38:32 we don't have lazy evaluation in lisp, we argue before we try! 13:38:52 madnificent: IIRC, you can do lazy in lisp, or so I heard. but I have no idea why. 13:38:56 Haskell doesn't have copyright on thunks. :-) 13:39:24 doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 13:39:38 Dynetrekk: have patience, it may be added to simple-sequence over time... and as for why: because it makes some code easier to understand 13:40:02 -!- Chronona1t [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:40:17 madnificent: okay 13:40:26 Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:31 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:43 madnificent: we have series 13:44:48 locklace: oh well, no one seemed to know that library in the last few days, so I went ahead and created something. 13:45:35 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:45:41 cltl2-section Series 13:45:41 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node347.html 13:46:02 CL has a ton of these old hidden libraries around .. some of them are maintained (still, after manymany years) even :) 13:46:15 tic: (loop for i from n to limit (print i)) <- why does it fail? 13:46:45 Is CAS (Compare-And-Swap) implemented in other CL implementations, except SBCL? 13:47:23 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:47:43 Dynetrekk, do (print i) 13:47:49 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-250.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:48:26 lnostdal: doesn't quite do it... I'll paste it. 13:48:46 (loop for i from 0 to 10 do (print i)) 13:48:52 -!- slom [n=slom@pD9EB60F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:48:57 Dynetrekk pasted "funny func" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71690 13:49:07 (iterate (for i from 0 to 10) (print i)) ;) 13:49:33 (funny :n 0) works fine 13:49:42 schme_: ugh, more funny stuff 13:49:52 lnostdal: fuck. so it can't count backwards?? 13:50:17 ? 13:50:19 my god the complicatedness. 13:50:34 locklace: the system that was asked here, was actually to iterate over indiches (eg: (seq -2 10)), series seems to be geared more towards infinite series. I could probably map the interface I give to series though. 13:50:40 You need to read up on how LOOP works. 13:50:48 schme_: I guess 13:50:51 it counts backwards if you want it to, Dynetrekk 13:51:00 "it" 13:51:03 lnostdal: okay, just not the way I did it 13:51:19 the magic black box .. "it" 13:51:24 anyway .. i'm gone .. *poff* 13:51:35 madnificent: series works equally well for finite and infinite data 13:53:37 -!- mib_sl0r3t [i=d2fdcab6@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4f1c6eca0cade727] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:54:05 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:59:03 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 13:59:26 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:59:29 ok... symbol-macrolet seems to be what i was looking for... a let that doesn't eval the init-forms 14:00:18 -!- Bucciarati [n=buccia@host36-160-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:00:28 shmho [n=user@58.142.35.171] has joined #lisp 14:00:40 tomas` [n=user@c-52e3e055.31-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:01:18 locklace: what is the definition in series (if you would know it) to have a sequence from -10 to 10, and to remove numbers 5 to 8 from it? (IF you would know it out of the top of your head) 14:02:27 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 14:04:55 benny [n=benny@i577A0BDA.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:05:08 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:10 -!- doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:05:43 -!- tomas` [n=user@c-52e3e055.31-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:06:02 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 14:06:15 hrr4 [n=user@217.194.139.3] has joined #lisp 14:08:29 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A15EE.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:09:08 madnificent: (series:choose-if (lambda (n) (not (<= 5 n 8))) (series:scan-range :from -10 :upto 10)) 14:09:28 locklace: and that was the whole point of simple-sequence... 14:09:48 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-58-91-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 14:10:07 (s- (seq -10 10) (seq 5 8)) (I never intended it to be powerfull, just short 14:10:09 nefo [n=yxd@58.207.136.169] has joined #lisp 14:10:38 locklace: but clearly, series offers fancier constructs and it probably is way more efficient 14:11:57 hi, guys, i wanna learn lisp. would you please recommend some books? 14:12:09 minion: tell nefo about pcl 14:12:10 nefo: have a look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 14:12:29 *madnificent* agrees with locklace 14:12:38 -!- hrr4 [n=user@217.194.139.3] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:13:31 phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 14:13:34 Grilinctus [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 14:13:39 thanks a lot, and what's the difference between common lisp and emacs lisp? 14:13:41 nefo: #cl-gardeners may be handy (though somewhat dead from time to time). What OS are you running? 14:14:11 ubuntu 14:14:12 nefo: it is a different language :) 14:14:49 nefo: they are so different that it's easier to ask how they're similar 14:15:02 :-) 14:15:07 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054052065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:15:14 locklace: why? 14:15:16 nefo: then I advise you to use sbcl (altough some might disagree here). It is probably best to combine learning emacs basics together with lisp, for the arguably best lisp ide is slime (which works inside emacs) 14:16:03 nefo: it is a bit like java and javascript... the syntax looks somewhat the same... but that's about it (might be exaggerated) 14:16:04 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:16:09 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:14 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 14:16:49 madnificent: i see 14:17:23 nefo: in addition to pcl, keep this around as a readable reference: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node1.html and for a formal and up-to-date standard reference, http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/ 14:17:55 -!- Tordek__ [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:21:25 -!- O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-38-248.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 14:22:02 -!- baal5084 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[n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:02 keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:02 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has joined #lisp 14:47:02 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 14:47:02 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 14:47:02 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 14:47:02 spacebat [n=akhasha@124-171-110-89.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:47:02 PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:47:02 eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 14:47:42 is there a common sane way to do something like (when (find-package :some-package) (defun blah () (some-package::do-stuff))) ..? 14:49:51 I do the conditional then obtain symbols in the package using read-from-string. No idea if that's sane or not. 14:50:35 i guess, at least it moves the "time of lookup" to the right point 14:51:44 lnostdal: another (maybe saner) way is to (funcall (intern "DO-STUFF" "SOME-PACKAGE")) 14:52:25 read-from-string can fail based on what you did with your readtable 14:53:02 s/read-from-string/find-symbol/ 14:53:05 (find-symbol "PRESENT-REPL-RESULTS" :swank) ;; would do also i guess 14:53:13 oh 14:54:08 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:54:30 davazp` [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:10 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 14:55:54 the evil way: (when (find-package :some-package) (eval (read-from-string "(defun blah () (some-package::do-stuff))"))) 14:56:23 i'm ok with evil in general, but maybe it isn't needed in this case :) 14:57:37 maybe (when (find-package :some-package) (pushnew :some-package-feature *features*)) #+some-package-feature ... 14:58:46 yeah, i think all libraries should push to *features* .. it's the only way to deal with things at read-time it seems 14:59:23 ..not sure if it works here though.. can try 14:59:46 adeht: that's a little different, though. the use case I imagined was where something may be defined later, but the package probably isn't loaded yet (e.g. a perform :after method on an asdf system which runs some initialization) 15:01:13 -!- davazp` [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:01:20 hoh. 15:01:21 *hefner* stops to wonder if it's really necessary to put the initialization there in the code he's thinking of 15:01:31 hefner: What is this I read with changing the default text style in mcclim? :) 15:01:43 *schme_* luvs the fixed 15:01:52 -!- phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:02:03 adeht, seems to works great here .. just have to make sure the check and push happens at the right time .. thanks :) 15:02:17 schme_: well, I'd like to change it, if no one has any objections. no one has made any "default-courier-ugly" jokes in a year or two, which in the past has pissed me off enough to leave it set to default-courier-ugly. 15:02:32 hefner: yep, but given the first piece of code lnostdal showed that may not be the case 15:02:38 phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 15:03:41 hefner: I think I'm a minority on things like this. I loved fixed, but I can understand that most people do not. So a change seems not so bad.. Not so much work for me to set all my stuff to fixed anyway:) 15:03:44 adeht: okay, given he put it in a defun, sure. otoh, who calls that defun? how do they know whether it's available or not? 15:04:21 Bucciarati [n=buccia@212.45.155.126] has joined #lisp 15:04:21 hefner: good questions 15:04:57 in my case the function in question is used by me while debugging, and i always have swank available when debugging 15:05:57 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 15:06:55 fe[nl]ix pasted "the pedantic way" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71693 15:07:03 lnostdal: or that ^^ 15:07:32 lnostdal: maybe putting code in ~/.swank.lisp is what you really want 15:08:56 -!- prip [n=_prip@host245-134-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:09:24 adeht, mh, yeah .. true 15:09:24 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:10:04 but i might not want it when swank is loaded in _all_ cases .. only when debugging and with some-debugging-library-loaded 15:10:13 schme_: I like fixed for code and the listener prompt, but don't want to see it anywhere else 15:10:15 ..but yeah, ~/.swank would make sense in my case 15:11:13 lnostdal: at least adding to *features* could be done there 15:11:43 yes 15:12:41 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:13:22 tic: I fixed the argument prompting so that the first field is selected by default. 15:14:38 -!- doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:14:49 rdd` [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:15:05 those dialogs are still awful, but that's one less thing to complain about. 15:17:36 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:10 -!- rdd` [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:23:01 rdd` [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:23:20 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:23:40 -!- rdd` is now known as rdd 15:25:19 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 15:25:50 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:29:03 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:28 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@ti0026a340-0013.bb.online.no] has quit [] 15:37:23 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 15:38:43 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-128-94.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:39:44 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Client Quit] 15:41:01 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:42:20 has anyone used lisp with gtk already? which other ways are there to make a gui without too much hassle? 15:42:42 ltk 15:43:46 i'll look into that, thanks 15:45:53 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:47:44 ltk really is on the lower end of the hassle scale. 15:48:09 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:49:55 there seem to be several gtk binding, i have looked on all the websites referred in cliki, has anyone tried any of these bindings before? 15:51:53 timor: clg is the best 15:53:12 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:57:57 schme: quote found on usenet: "A mouse is a device used to focus xterms." 15:58:04 :) 15:59:17 i usually concur, but some tasks are actually easier to complete with a mouse 15:59:52 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:00:22 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-128-94.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:00:31 oh yes. 16:00:34 lets not go there again ;) 16:00:47 yep 16:00:52 I'm working on this CL thing for the 3dconnexion mice, so that will be nice ;) 16:02:59 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@ti0026a340-0013.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:03:43 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 16:04:08 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 16:05:04 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:09:56 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:17:00 lowlev [i=frid@server1.bshellz.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:53 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:34 Dynetrekk pasted "compilation error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71697 16:20:58 there's something weird; I wrote a similar function that works nicely... don't see the problem here. 16:21:14 *schme* looks 16:22:24 ok I just need to refocus my eyes after the pain of that indentation. 16:22:48 schme: sorry, noone told me how to indent lisp... I actually looked for a "code style" doc on the web 16:22:59 oh good luck with the code style hunting :) 16:23:06 btw, it's what emacs does :s 16:23:17 lemme guess: there is none 16:23:19 Dynetrekk: Do you have elisp indent or CL ? 16:23:25 there might be, I haven't found any :) 16:23:26 uh, who knows 16:23:43 it says, for example, slime-repl clisp in one spot here 16:23:57 I'm definitely using clisp as interpreter 16:24:30 hoh. 16:24:41 Well I can't test that function. I lack the BINOMIAL-PROB 16:24:48 just a sec 16:25:07 Where the problem seems to be anyway. 16:25:09 Dynetrekk annotated #71697 with "full code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71697#1 16:25:28 but, it's not the problem. I already tested that function. it works... it seems at least 16:26:24 ok so how does one run this anyway? 16:26:50 oh 16:27:09 Dynetrekk: I get odd number of key arguments here. which is caused by you not passing a :p to binomial-prob 16:27:20 aha 16:27:24 fuck... you're right 16:27:51 I think the compiler complains in a funny way... why doesn't it give the line number, for example? 16:27:58 schme: thanks man! 16:28:29 lines is not the natural thing in CL.. but maybe you need to bug the clisp people about it :) 16:28:45 -!- tomsw [n=user@85.138.148.124] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:29:03 One learns to decode the backtrace ;) 16:29:06 hehe, good point. but it doesn't even state which function, "from lines 5 to 7", for example 16:29:20 one does? good. how can I become One with the Backtrace? 16:29:30 No.. but how would that work if the stuff is not actually in a file anywhere? 16:29:32 anyway, it failed at runtime - stupid 16:29:47 Dynetrekk: you can move the cursor on the debugger frame to the line you are interested in and press 'v' 16:29:50 how can it not be... hm... well, it doesn't state the function name 16:30:09 sometimes it jumps you exactly to where the error was. 16:30:12 Dynetrekk: Well like that paste you just gave us. I copied, and pasted at the repl. 16:30:26 Dynetrekk: So it is just evaluated in the lisp image, not in any source file anywhere. 16:31:40 schme: good point. but, how do you know *which* function failed? I mean, here it's obvious that cumulative-binomial-prob failed at giving correct arguments to binomial-prob 16:32:52 Dynetrekk: Right.. I get odd number of &KEY arguments [Condition of type SB-INT:SIMPLE-PROGRAM-ERROR] followed by a backtrace where the top thing is 0: (BINOMIAL-PROB 5 0 3) followed by 1: (CUMULATIVE-BINOMIAL-PROB 5 7 :P 3) 16:33:10 Dynetrekk: and seeing how I now know that BINOMIAL-PROB needs a :p there.. well etc. etc. 16:33:22 life with clisp I do not know though :) 16:33:45 okay, let me try... 16:34:09 te_ [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-3d130b00de7ede6f] has joined #lisp 16:34:47 In addition to what has been said already, my sbcl also gives a warning about the odd number of keyword args when compiling cumulative-binomial-prob. 16:35:06 Dynetrekk annotated #71697 with "my error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71697#2 16:35:18 200 lines long... 16:35:31 sellout [n=greg@nmd.sbx07502.somerma.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:02 woha. 16:36:04 maybe I'm just not 1337 enough to read this stuff yet, but 200 lines sounds like much for a factorial function, a fraction, and a sum.... :S what happens in a BIG project? 16:36:14 clisp output seems a shit to delouse :) 16:36:27 seems like it :S 16:36:34 this is via SLIME etc, but still 16:36:47 I only get 27 frames ;) 16:37:14 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:37:17 only 27 frames... oh god 16:37:22 even java rarely gives 10 16:37:34 Dynetrekk annotated #71697 with "nicer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71697#3 16:37:42 well most are not very interesting 16:37:47 sellout- [n=greg@nmd.sbx07502.somerma.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:47 tiento [n=user@190.161.24.77] has joined #lisp 16:37:47 it was nicer when run directly in terminal, not via SLIME 16:37:56 -!- tiento [n=user@190.161.24.77] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:38:01 yeah, but it's still 200 lines to ... well... read somehow 16:38:18 That's not the same you get there. no backtrace. 16:38:33 I guess that is why no one uses clisp :) 16:38:37 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:07 haha 16:39:08 okay 16:39:13 I thought CLISP was decent 16:39:24 iirc, it is rather decent. 16:39:34 Usually I'm only interested in the top ones. The rest tend to be totally not interested. 16:39:45 But the clisp bt seems very odd for me to read anyway. 16:39:50 has unlimited precission floats. that's rather exotic, I admit, but interesting notetheless. 16:40:07 prxq: then there must be some disagrement around 16:40:13 I hear that clisp backtraces are more useful on non-compiled code 16:40:24 prxq: other languages have too? 16:40:25 kpreid: That makes sense :) 16:40:48 kpreid: is it compiled when I push C-c C-c in my emacs/slime? 16:40:50 Dynetrekk: it is very rare. 16:40:59 prxq: java? mathematica? 16:41:18 prxq: I don't know a ton of languages 16:41:29 prxq: not unlimited, arbitrary. 16:41:59 schme annotated #71697 with "sbcl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71697#4 16:42:00 Dynetrekk: I have no idea java has it built in. Mathematica etc perhaps, I don't know. 16:42:18 pkhuong: right :-) unlimited would be a bit much... 16:42:22 few, arbitrary... my world was collapsing with that unlimited float precision o_O 16:42:28 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:42:33 Dynetrekk: I find *that* easy to read. 16:43:07 schme: the top two lines make perfect sense 16:43:12 the rest I don't know 16:43:24 well the rest is not so important ;) 16:43:24 madnificent: some ``real Reals'' library provide that. You pump more precision as you need it. 16:44:15 Dynetrekk: It's pretty much the standard stuff that always pops up. all swankery one can avoid reading. 16:44:27 prxq: java.math.BigDecimal. Mathematica for sure, just try N[Pi, 500]. 16:44:48 schme: I guess my debugging skills will grow in time :P 16:45:19 pkhuong: but it still is limited to memory constraints... Somehow my brain was tricked into believing that 'unlimited' was existant, so it was totally away in designing ways to exploit that :) 16:45:21 Dynetrekk: Probably. But maybe as kpreid said you can get the clisp backtraces to actually make sense. 16:45:43 Dynetrekk: and seriously. How much sense does haskell error messages make the first time you get that 15 lines of text explaining you mistyped ;) 16:45:45 pkhuong: it is rather cool to have (automatic) arbitrary precision :) 16:45:50 schme: I think there is something useful before the backtrace 16:46:13 schme: none? only languages I tried that instantly makes sense is java and python 16:46:18 heheh. 16:46:21 java is Really Nice in terms of error messages 16:46:30 skrit_ [n=skrit@cpe-76-88-49-7.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp