00:00:05 lispm_: Thanks. Alas, I won't be able to get the 2007 proceedings in time to get guidance about how to prepare a good application paper for 2009. :-( 00:00:44 not much time left 00:00:53 will your submit a paper? 00:00:57 you 00:02:21 lispm_: Hoping to. There are political issues with getting it submitted more than anything --- I have to get the funder's approval. 00:02:45 lispm_: thanks for the help. I must dash now , but will be back on later. 00:02:57 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:19 -!- rpg [n=rpg@71-220-94-191.mpls.qwest.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:04:09 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-94-117.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:04:35 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:07:57 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:10:07 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:11:23 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 00:12:23 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless34.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:16:25 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:16:27 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:17:31 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:20:00 whoa whoa whoa 00:20:13 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 00:20:14 the #' in #'(lambda (x) (+ x 1)) is optional?? 00:20:18 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has joined #lisp 00:20:33 mbac: yes 00:21:07 lispm_: Sorry about that --- got your answer at a bad time. 00:21:18 was it always optional? 00:21:23 no problem 00:21:35 mbac: it is optional in CL 00:21:45 afaik 00:21:50 mbac: the LAMBDA macro has been added after CLtL1 00:22:01 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:22:47 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:22:52 (lambda (x) (sin x)) expands to (function (lambda (x) (sin x))) 00:22:59 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:23:07 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:23:18 lispm_: I have the 2005 proceedings in dead tree form, but was hoping for the 2007 ones. I will probably order them anyway, but would have been nice to see a sample "use of CL paper" to compare with my MSS. 00:23:39 is function the same as #' ? 00:23:41 kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:53 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-054-011.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:01 #' is a readmacro that expands into (function ...) 00:24:23 rpg: isn't there anything in the 2005 proceedings? 00:24:40 rgp: what kind of information are you looking for? 00:25:48 lispm_: Two things: (1) a sense of how the community views applications papers as of 2007 (if it's changed) and (2) whether there's been any work reported on computer security applications @ ILC. 00:26:15 I can look, I should have the 2007 proceedings 00:27:00 the 2007 proceedings are much slimmer 00:27:15 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 00:27:33 there is a paper about network management 00:27:53 about routing 00:28:07 what kind of computer security applications? 00:29:22 there is another paper about a network traffic inspector 00:29:57 but nothing that looks like a 'security application' 00:32:07 -!- CptPicard [n=picard@a91-152-246-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:32:12 most papers in the 2007 proceedings are about libraries, tools and techniques 00:32:43 hefner: I've been working on a cl system for fusing reports from multiple intrusion detection systems. 00:33:00 Locust_Laptop [i=admin@dyn11-118.res-hall.vcsu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:33:22 rpg: what is the CL part of it? 00:33:23 Makes heavy use of CLOS for representing the situation and interesting events. 00:33:32 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:37 it is about event detection? 00:33:40 lispm_: All except some very low-level plumbing. 00:34:02 lispm_: No, not really. there are lots of event detectors around (IDSes); it's more about filtering the results of those. 00:34:15 In practice, IDSes are so prone to false positives that most users just ignore them. 00:34:36 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:39 so the beef is in the filtering process? 00:35:10 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:37:03 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-249-086.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 00:37:15 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-044-155.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:17 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:37:22 lispm_: Yes. Specifically the ability to have enough context represented so that the system can remove *systematic* false positives. 00:37:46 lispm_: and the use of an abstracted probability calculus to weigh alternative explanations. 00:38:01 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:38:06 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:38:41 There's a great deal of symbolic computation and complex class-based reasoning that CL makes much easier to do than might otherwise be the case. 00:38:54 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 00:39:13 I think there were one or two papers on intrusion detection in an earlier ILC 00:42:18 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:42:25 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:43 rpg so what kind of systems do you support 00:42:56 intrusion detection systems 00:43:29 xristos: In the past, Dragon, snort, and a couple of others I've forgotten. 00:44:52 -!- LivingCorpse [i=admin@dyn13-202.wireless.vcsu.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:45:22 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:45:30 If you can't get beyond two orders of magnitude filtering, it's very hard to handle an IDS on a reasonably large network. 00:45:53 this depends on a lot of factors 00:46:20 there was some press around Sandia: http://archives.neohapsis.com/archives/snort/2000-11/0146.html 00:46:45 an article in Scientific American... 00:46:48 snort false positives depend on the rules 00:47:03 you can configure it tailored for cutting them down 00:47:09 if thats what you want 00:48:45 xristos: Yes, but there are places where the combination of multiple events helps you tell a false positive from a real event --- so you don't want to just turn down the gain on individual sensors, you want to fuse them. 00:48:51 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 00:48:58 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D902.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:49:29 sure 00:49:34 rpg: did you look at the ILC 2009 page? 00:49:37 I must go and feed children now... 00:49:44 lispm_: yes, why? 00:50:03 looks like papers about applications are up to 4 pages 00:50:20 technical papers about 'original results' up to 15 pages 00:51:08 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:14 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:51:16 lispm_: The four pagers were to introduce demonstrations, I thought. I didn't think that "technical papers" precluded papers about applications. 00:51:34 rpg: that would be useful to find out 00:52:21 lispm_: Indeed it would! 00:53:51 E.g., opening my 2005 proceedings at random, I see "Using delayed streams to discern changing conditions in complex environments: Monitors in Apex 3.0," which is an application paper, but which seems to be a first class citizen. 00:54:03 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 00:54:57 kgn [n=kglovern@129-97-112-155.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 00:55:23 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@129-97-112-155.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 00:55:35 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:55:36 the 2007 proceedings also has longer application papers 00:55:40 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:55:52 lispm_: OK, sent a paper to the organizing committee. Now must run. Thanks for the info about 2007. cheers! 00:56:00 bye! 00:56:04 kgn [n=kglovern@129-97-112-155.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 00:56:16 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:57:18 kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:58 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:02:02 -!- phao [n=phao@201.58.156.248] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:13 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:04:48 phao [n=phao@201.58.156.248] has joined #lisp 01:06:24 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 01:09:09 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:13:05 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:16:21 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 01:18:52 george__ [n=george@189.107.155.1] has joined #lisp 01:22:37 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:27:25 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:28:03 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.155.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:28:10 ebzzry [n=rmm@120.28.143.73] has joined #lisp 01:28:18 george__ [n=george@189.107.155.1] has joined #lisp 01:28:28 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 01:30:11 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.187.89] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:36:33 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@129-97-112-155.uwaterloo.ca] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:37:52 -!- Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:38:23 -!- george [n=george@189.107.203.157] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:40:12 ferada [n=ferada@f054015199.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 01:40:32 ths_ [n=ths@X75ae.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:41:12 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@120.28.143.73] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:41:40 ebzzry [n=rmm@120.28.143.73] has joined #lisp 01:41:44 mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-187-226.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:25 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:45:08 -!- phao [n=phao@201.58.156.248] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:45:44 phao [n=phao@20158156248.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 01:48:17 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-894d0549666a8189] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:48:40 -!- phao [n=phao@20158156248.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Client Quit] 01:49:38 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:33 -!- prxq [n=mommer@Ybf8f.y.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:52:35 prxq [n=mommer@Yb4a4.y.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:54:06 ebzzry_ [n=rmm@120.28.153.193] has joined #lisp 01:57:22 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:42 -!- ths [n=ths@X46d5.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:59:39 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 01:59:59 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:00:52 kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:08 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 02:03:40 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:49 clsmith [n=cls@82-46-12-86.cable.ubr07.aztw.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:06:22 -!- mrsolo__ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-187-226.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:06:44 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:07:13 Hey. I just started learning Lisp today, and I was wondering if someone could help me with something. http://pastebin.com/d34a864bb The cond, in the "main program loop", doesn't print anything when it comes across a "+". Could anyone see why? 02:07:29 kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:23 <_3b> '+ is a symbol, not a character 02:08:27 Maybe because chr is a character, not '+ 02:08:27 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@120.28.143.73] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:37 <_3b> #\+ would be a character 02:08:48 clsmith: I would tell you, but I type too slow 02:09:08 Oh. I was under the impression that '+ would make it a string... But thank you. :) Only been learning a few hours, heheh. 02:09:09 -!- ferada [n=ferada@f054015199.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["gn8"] 02:09:21 <_3b> also, use whole words for names, ram hasn't been expensive enough to justify hard-to-read abbreviations for a long time :p 02:09:31 Yes, that works. Thanks, _3b. 02:09:33 <_3b> "+" would be a string, which still wouldn't be a character 02:09:39 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:09:48 minion: tell clsmith about that-dead-sexy-book 02:09:48 _3b: Oh right. I had that same problem when I learnt C... 02:09:49 clsmith: look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 02:09:49 <_3b> also, don't use EQ on characters 02:10:03 clhs char-eql 02:10:03 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for char-eql. 02:10:05 err 02:10:15 clhs char-equal 02:10:15 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_chareq.htm 02:10:16 char= ? 02:10:17 :) 02:10:20 or char= 02:10:37 Thanks. :) 02:10:54 is char= a function, i forget 02:11:08 yes, it is 02:11:09 manic12: Yes, it seems to be. 02:11:10 <_3b> use defparameter or defvar to create globals, don't just SETf them without a definition 02:11:14 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:11:17 = is case-sensitive, equal is insensitive 02:11:20 (clo) 02:11:22 (clod) 02:11:51 _3b: Is that the case with '() and 0 (but not '(0))? 02:12:20 <_3b> clsmith: using defparameter you mean? 02:12:42 _3b: Or defvar? Is there a difference? 02:12:50 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 02:13:19 <_3b> i mean for *bf*, *mem*, *ip*, *mp*... the value doesn't matter 02:13:35 clsmith: You should really read PCL or similar 02:13:38 <_3b> the difference between defparameter and defvar is that defvar doesn't reset the value if the variable already exists 02:13:53 sykopomp: Sadly, I'm 18, and rather short on money. 02:14:24 _3b: Okay, thanks. 02:14:45 clsmith: PCL is available online for zero dollars. 02:14:48 <_3b> using SETF without defining the var first is unfortunately common in example code, but is technically undefined in the spec, so avoid picking up that habit :) 02:15:03 ahaas: Oh? I'll go look. 02:15:05 clsmith: zero dollah! 02:15:18 free as in beer, although you're too young for beer anyways. 02:15:20 hohoho 02:15:35 sykopomp: Not in the UK. :) 02:16:14 <_3b> also, i prefer putting loop keywrds that start a clause (FOR, UNTIL, and DO in your code) at the beginnings of a line 02:16:46 haha 02:16:54 It's pretty great that arguably the best intro to Lisp book is online for free. 02:17:04 <_3b> oh yeah, and never put ) by themselves 02:17:31 _3b: How come? I've tended to do that with C-like languages. Frowned upon in Lisp? 02:17:53 yeah, we stack ))) in the end 02:18:06 it's considered pretty bad style to do cascading parens 02:18:26 sykopomp: But it's more obvious how many there are. >_> 02:18:29 clsmith: Most people read lisp by how it's indented, not the parens. 02:18:44 therefore, putting them on their own line is just annoying 02:18:50 clsmith: an editor with paren-matching is all you need to figure that out, really 02:19:03 and yes, it's read by indentation, not by paren-counting 02:19:11 Okay, fair enough. 02:19:44 anyways, it looks like you're having fun :) 02:19:50 how do you like stuff so far? 02:19:54 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:20:39 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:20:53 sykopomp: It's quite fun. I've developed a tradition in having my first program in any language being an esoteric language interpreter. So that's what I'm doing now. Heh. Finding it hard to stop doing things like "cond()" though. 02:21:57 I've noticed that with some friends I helped get started. Random funcall() stuff all over the place. 02:22:08 a tip about cond by the way 02:22:22 cond is used when you have what you would need an 'else if..' for 02:22:29 so, if you have 3 different conditions, or more 02:22:36 sykopomp: Yeah, I plan to have about 7 in that list. 02:22:41 if you have two conditions, if is usually used 02:22:42 aaaand 02:22:51 there's these very neat functions called 'when' and 'unless' 02:23:09 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:23:15 you can probably figure out what they do, but it looks from your code like you'd be better off using when 02:23:26 <_3b> also, LOOP has constructs for building and iterating lists, so you could simplify those loops a bit 02:23:35 oh yes, that's also true 02:23:57 sykopomp: Another case where you prefer COND is where there's more than one statement in the if and the else case. So you avoid the (if x (progn ....) (progn ...)) by using COND. 02:23:57 <_3b> (setf *bf* (loop for chr ... until ... collect chr)) 02:24:07 the true power lies in its expressiveness, really, and being able to compress complex things into very readable constructs. 02:24:10 sykopomp: Well, where I'm using cond in that code, I plan to have 7 statements. 02:24:10 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:24:39 clsmith: then make sure you always have a (t ... check with cond 02:24:40 _3b: Would that be usable when *ip* may jump about a bit? 02:24:42 even if it's nil 02:24:48 <_3b> and the 2nd loop would be (loop for char in *ip do (princ...) (cond ...))) 02:25:20 kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:36 <_3b> ah, if you are changing *ip*, the way you are doing the 2nd list is better (though use an array instead of a list) 02:25:45 <_3b> 1st loop doesn't depend on *ip* though 02:26:04 I would discourage the use of global variables like that. Try writing stuff with defun and passing values around 02:27:12 *_3b* got the 2nd loop wrong anyway, should have been *bf* not *ip 02:27:50 def_aaa [n=2052E653@125.34.128.254] has joined #lisp 02:28:22 anyways, silly question. In SLIME: Inspecting a method gives you tons of info. Including the source where the generic function, or maybe the methods? is/are defined.... 02:28:40 what does it use to know where things are defined? Heck, how does SLIME do that in general? Just SWANK? 02:29:10 <_3b> sykopomp: swank has platform specific code to get at that info 02:30:17 is it accessible to user apps, by any chance? 02:30:43 <_3b> well, swank is theoretically a user app :) 02:30:46 -!- def_aaa [n=2052E653@125.34.128.254] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:31:01 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 02:31:10 I guess, but it would be nice to integrate it with my own stuff ;D 02:31:13 <_3b> how stable the APIs in question are is up to the implementations though 02:31:40 I mean, I imagine Linux/SBCL might be as stable as you can get, swank-wise, right? 02:31:46 I only really care to run it on that platform 02:32:24 <_3b> no idea... and i mean more stable against changes than stable vs crashes 02:32:47 I understood that 02:32:49 you can use swank 02:32:57 i did it for an opengl repl 02:33:10 opengl repl? :-o 02:33:26 yeah 02:33:27 <_3b> yeah, swank if probably more stable API, since it abstracts over multiple implementations 02:33:35 I'm trying to have method definitions accessible and editable from userspace. At least, I'm trying to think of ways to make this possible. 02:33:54 editable from within the application, which I guess is a pretty tall order 02:34:17 they always are 02:34:39 wait, did I miss something? 02:34:53 sykopomp: repl... 02:35:06 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:10 is there a way to inspect a method *definition* from within an in-application REPL and edit it, then redefine it there? 02:35:11 evening folks 02:35:21 sykopomp: You could just look at your copy of swank.lisp and find the stuff that references the source code finding api. 02:35:30 isnt that what defun and defmethod do 02:35:46 sykopomp: not really, but you could make a macro for method definition and store the definition as a list for later editing... 02:35:51 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:36:00 xristos: yes, but I want to see what the contents of defmethod are, and edit that, not simply send a new defmethod and clobber things blindly 02:36:01 _theHAM: just saw the logs. are you Kaz, our Kaz from CLL? 02:36:11 madnificent: that's a really good idea 02:36:20 sykopomp there is function-lambda-expression 02:37:01 but needs tailoring i think 02:37:07 or custom macros 02:37:13 -!- eliasm [n=eliasm@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:37:33 eliasm [n=eliasm@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:37:39 <_3b> fusss: found another interesting .swf disassembler: http://www.libspark.org/svn/as3/ByteCodeDisassembler/ 02:38:05 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:38:16 <_3b> fusss: takes some work to set up though, since it outputs to trace(), and i think you would have to edit the code to make it disassemble too 02:38:17 _3b: dude, i have to write AS for a living now :-( learning on the job, ROFLMAO 02:38:25 bedtime, have fun 02:38:33 nite madnificent 02:38:37 -!- eliasm [n=eliasm@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:38:43 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:38:49 _3b: takes time to setup in Flex Builder? 02:39:00 fusss: sweet. now you have more motivation to get your lisp->avm2 compiler working. 02:39:02 eliasm [n=eliasm@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:39:13 ahaas: that's not funny 02:39:23 <_3b> fusss: dunno, don't use flex builder 02:39:26 ahaas: And fix that actionscript-mode 02:39:27 kzar` [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:39:33 oops, i meant fusss 02:39:47 <_3b> yeah, working actionscript mode would be nice 02:39:54 ahaas: as the junior actionscripter, i defer that to _3b 02:40:06 <_3b> found one that seemed to work, but broke lisp modes when i load it :( 02:40:31 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:40:34 _3b: shhhhh, ahaas wrote that one. it didn't break slime for me, but it broke my (eye)balls 02:40:58 <_3b> nah, this was a modified version of ahaas' code i think 02:40:59 no way mine broke lisp modes 02:41:18 <_3b> ahaas: yours doesn't work on emacs 22 right? 02:41:19 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a9b-161.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:41:30 I have one that does, but it doesn't do indenting. 02:41:48 <_3b> yeah, indenting is one of the more important bits :) 02:41:55 I agree. 02:42:01 jestocost [n=cmell@d288be-171.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:42:06 It's very difficult. 02:42:14 <_3b> i try to avoid working in .as though, so i don't worry about it too much 02:42:15 _3b: js2-mode is sweet. 02:42:21 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 02:42:29 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1E63C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:42:50 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has joined #lisp 02:42:54 _3b: i think you should put that lisp compiler on hold and start hacking in straight AS. you will get a good feel for what needs to be done. or i can tell you about it :-P 02:43:19 segv [n=mb@p4FC1CBF9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:23 <_3b> nah, compiler is almost to a useable state 02:43:36 <_3b> nowhere near 'finished', but enough for simple use 02:43:47 This is the one I am currently using: http://austin.slippypeople.com/actionscript-mode.el 02:44:23 <_3b> just need to finish cleaning up the ffi for the player libs 02:45:14 _3b: did you want me to get involved in anyway? would love to help, but i have way too many opinions about compilers to sit down and hack one out straight 02:45:42 <_3b> you are welcome to help however you like, if you want to 02:46:03 are you iffy about formalisms? 02:46:10 <_3b> what do you mean? 02:46:23 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:46:26 *sigh* 02:46:50 pointy-haired operational semantics, or some other verifiable model of compiler/vm 02:47:50 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:47:57 <_3b> at this point i'm still morstly concerned with figuring out how things work 02:48:15 <_3b> (both at the vm level, and at the 'write a compiler' level) 02:48:30 -!- ebzzry_ [n=rmm@120.28.153.193] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:48:44 i would love to have a few pages of spelled-out lisp semantics, a well though out VM (possibly *generatable*), and flexible IR and type system (as much of it as we need to generate efficient AVM2 code) 02:49:01 s/though/thought/ 02:49:15 <_3b> yeah, i'd like to add more of that sort of thing as well 02:49:24 i can do that 02:49:39 How can I modify one given item in a list? 02:49:39 <_3b> cool 02:50:19 <_3b> (setf (nth x list) value)? 02:50:19 clsmith: (setf (get-element-of-list list) new-value) 02:50:27 then write get-element-of-list :-) 02:50:30 -!- kzar` [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:50:52 Ah, easy. Heheh. Thanks. 02:51:04 <_3b> clsmith: array might be better if you are doing random access though 02:51:06 _3b: then profiling shows him he was better off with a vector, now he has to change N nths to aref 02:51:18 yeah 02:51:51 <_3b> fusss: true, elt might be better than nth there 02:51:54 _3b: Ah. How would I use an array instead? Meh, I haven't found a good tutorial yet. I'll look at that one you all recommended... 02:52:07 clsmith: I recommend keeping the hyperspec open. It's easy to answer those question by browsing the "dictionary" for the item under consideration. 02:53:19 <_3b> clsmith: MAKE-ARRAY (or VECTOR) and AREF would be useful 02:53:40 <_3b> possibly COERCE if you are starting with data in a list 02:54:06 Tordek_ [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 02:56:34 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:25 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:59:04 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 02:59:29 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0C48F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:18 How do I declare an array? I can't find it anywhere. =/ 03:00:28 clsmith: Check the hyperspec! 03:00:35 clhs array 03:00:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_array.htm 03:01:06 ahaas: I am. I don't quite understand what the syntax is telling me... 03:01:47 -!- mulligan [n=user@e177081237.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:01:49 are you looking at make-array? It has examples. 03:02:18 clsmith: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_ar.htm#make-array 03:02:24 Ah, so it does. Thanks. 03:02:27 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:35 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 03:05:18 _3b: Sun just released JavaFX. All the more reasons for a retargetability :-) 03:05:44 Argh, JAVA! :( 03:06:02 >:( 03:06:20 I tried to build this 'runs anywhere' thing this week, its a real pain in the ass. 03:06:31 Good morning. 03:06:33 Just to get the jdk installed. 03:07:24 clsmith: Did you really mean `declare', or did you just want to create an array? 03:08:18 <_3b> fusss: heh, retargetability is a very low priority for me currently :) 03:08:37 <_3b> fusss: i'd probably just use abcl for something java based 03:08:53 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:11:24 beach: Urm. I want to create an array named *mem*. 03:12:30 clsmith: (setf *mem* (make-array _3b: hacker! and i say that as an insult. i'm off to find a good paper by Milner, or maybe Plotkin, or Strachey, and i will find a formalism to evaluate UNCOL instructions in my head. also do sprite animation. 03:13:07 portably (of course, my head only runs on one platform) 03:13:18 sykopomp: *** - EVAL: too few arguments given to SYSTEM::SET-SYMBOL-VALUE: (SET) 03:13:21 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 03:13:42 huh? 03:13:45 oh 03:13:47 uhhh... 03:13:48 <_3b> fusss: nah, i just don't need retargetability, nothing 'hacker' involved in that decision... 03:14:11 if *mem* doesn't exist, you should do (defparameter *mem* (make-array number)) 03:14:17 jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 03:14:18 <_3b> fusss: won't argue the 'hacker' bit on the rest of the design though :) 03:14:20 clsmith: what lisp are you using? 03:14:32 sykopomp: clisp 03:14:41 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:14:56 (defvar *mem* nil) first 03:14:59 it would work without defparameter 03:15:26 did he type SET instead of SETF maybe? 03:15:40 _3b: i know, just teasing. gotta go for now. bbl. 03:15:42 (defvar *mem* nil) 03:15:43 (setf *mem* (make-array 1)) ; doesn't work 03:15:43 he probably typed set, yes. but I figured it'd be better to recommend defparameter anyway 03:16:11 <_3b> fusss: nah, the current code deserves insults :) 03:16:12 clsmith: there's no reason I can think of why that wouldn't work 03:16:17 clsmith: version of clisp? works here fine 03:16:35 except pebkac :-\ 03:16:39 Wait. Oh that's irritating. I had ASCII debris elsewhere which wasn't meant to be there. My fault. 03:16:46 hehe 03:17:32 _3b: i was going mostly after the coder. they call that ad hominem-evaluation, or call by names, or lambda the ultimate jerk 03:17:54 <_3b> fusss: oh yeah, were you the one thinking about flash gui stuff? if so, seen www.aswing.org ? 03:18:51 yeah, saw it right after 03:19:08 *stassats* shall not trying to figure out why something isn't working on clisp 3 minutes after wake-up 03:19:47 -!- Locust_Laptop [i=admin@dyn11-118.res-hall.vcsu.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:20:01 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D3DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:20:54 clsmith: I realize you are a Lisp beginner, but we should work on your terminology: When you create objects in Lisp, you dont say you `declare' them, because declarations are entirely different things. And objects don't have names in Lisp, but they can be the values of variables. 03:21:26 clsmith: some objects, like symbols, do have names, and symbols are used as variables. 03:22:20 beach: Haha, okay. That's a bit confusing, but I'll work on it. 03:22:48 beach: Are you currently teaching a course? 03:23:08 ahaas: not right now, no. Why? 03:23:19 I was just curious. 03:23:38 ahaas: but I have to prepare the Lisp-based project course for next semester. 03:23:56 I see. What is the name of the course? 03:23:59 ahaas: I am going to have them work on an information system that I am going to write in CLIM. 03:24:12 ahaas: "programming project 3" :( 03:24:38 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:24:55 At what point do the students begin learning Lisp? 03:25:17 third-year in the undergraduate program. 03:25:40 How many students do you expect to have? 03:25:55 ahaas: 120 or so as I recall. 03:25:58 wow! 03:26:16 ahaas: it's a mandatory course. 03:26:24 wow. awesome! 03:28:09 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:28:10 They have just finished a 6 credit (ECTS) Lisp-based course, and the project course is 3 credits. 03:28:29 For those who don't know ECTS there are 60 credits per academic year. 03:29:05 So a 6 credit course is reasonable, but a 3 credit course is pretty small. 03:29:30 oh 03:29:38 Are most students enrolled for four years? 03:30:07 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:30:25 huh. Has anyone here played around with Qi? 03:30:28 ahaas: In the Bologna system, the undergraduate program is 3 year. Then there are another 2 years to get a masters degree. 03:30:34 appletizer [i=a@82-46-31-101.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 03:31:29 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:33:52 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 03:36:49 -!- eliasm [n=eliasm@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:37:02 eliasm [n=eliasm@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:52 EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has joined #lisp 03:41:00 ahaas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bologna_process in case you are interested. Some 50 countries have signed up. 03:41:04 -!- clsmith [n=cls@82-46-12-86.cable.ubr07.aztw.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:42:36 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:42:45 beach: thanks 03:43:03 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:43:36 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:28 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:45:12 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 03:47:54 S11001001 pasted "nonsensical type error with code in fresh SBCL 1.0.23 Linux/x86" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71615 03:49:04 <_3b> S11001001: which part is nonsense? 03:49:44 1. that the derived type of owner-name would be null, and 2. that it doesn't happen on 1.0.23 Linux/amd64 03:49:52 even confirmation appreciated as I can't reproduce on the latter platform 03:50:28 this is a stripped down version of cl-ppcre:register-groups-bind output 03:51:06 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:51:07 S11001001: i have the same warning 03:51:11 <_3b> it doesn't know data is always an array with element 0 = t, so owner-name could be "T" or nil, which conflicts with the declare 03:51:20 *hefner* stares at clim-fig 03:51:44 _3b: check out the warning without the declare, which incidentally is a compile-failing level warning 03:51:45 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 03:51:52 hefner: what about it? 03:52:02 anyway, that wouldn't justify deriving a type of null 03:52:09 S11001001: post .23 sbcl, linux-x86_64 03:53:31 <_3b> S11001001: without the declare, you get an warning because NIL isn't a valid package designator, which sbcl knows is required for find-package 03:54:01 _3b: I don't get the warning without the declare on 64 03:54:04 have anybody tried to assimilate haskell feactures with lisp macros ? 03:54:19 beach: it's fascinating in that it's only ~400 lines of code, and the sort of thing that would be impossible if every bad claim I make about CLIM were really true 03:54:41 <_3b> S11001001: not getting it on some platforms sounds odd, don't know what causes that 03:54:45 S11001001: and i get 03:55:10 hefner: yeah, it's quite impressive in that respect. 03:55:11 S11001001: what's your debug settings? 03:56:01 ah, I see, I get it on 64 with standard settings 03:56:21 for curious I run on (declaim (optimize (speed 0) (compilation-speed 0) (space 2) (safety 2) (debug 2))) 03:56:26 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:56:29 beach: if I wrote this, interaction with the main canvas would've been entirely event-driven 03:56:49 I wonder what that would look like. 03:56:51 -!- EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net/"] 03:57:10 crod [n=cmell@cb8a5b-016.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:57:13 hefner: you shall have to write it to find out. 03:57:21 regardless I don't see why this should be a compile-breaking warning, because it's not that SBCL can tell the code will *always* have bad types, just that it might sometimes 03:57:33 which is the case for a great deal of Lisp code in general 03:57:57 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@d288be-171.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:58:30 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 03:58:34 <_3b> sure it isn't ASDF doing the compilation breaking? 03:59:41 ASDF assumes the compile failed if compile-file returns NIL, which SBCL does after certain warnings 04:00:56 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 04:03:09 <_3b> you could replace the declare with (check-type owner-name string) if it isn't convenient to avoid the nil 04:04:50 Tordek_ [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 04:05:05 that is a nice workaround, dropped in and #+sbcled, thanks _3b 04:07:13 <_3b> or i guess (when owner-name (find-symbol ...)) if you'd rather return nil instead of erroring 04:08:28 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:09:15 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:09:42 I could, but logically, owner-name will never be nil 04:10:41 the aref is actually looking in a list of register binding locations, in code that is only executed when the regex matches, and the group is not optional 04:11:13 specifically, cl-ppcre:register-groups-bind (owner-name) (#?/^(.+)-ID$/ (symbol-name slot-name)) 04:11:19 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 04:11:57 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-220-40.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 04:15:12 S11001001: then why there is IF, if it never will be nil? 04:15:33 <_3b> stassats: generic macro that doesn't know that 04:19:37 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X75ae.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:22:22 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 04:25:37 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 04:26:02 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.87.197] has joined #lisp 04:27:27 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:29:37 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@bb219-75-45-240.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 04:30:23 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:30:32 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:33:29 -!- appletizer [i=a@82-46-31-101.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [] 04:37:59 ths [n=ths@X4607.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 04:41:42 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:44:15 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:46:19 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:48:09 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:49:54 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:51:01 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.72.93] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:51:16 a-s [n=user@92.80.72.93] has joined #lisp 04:53:36 -!- sktrdie [n=sktrdie@adsl-75-32-37-220.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 04:59:07 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:00:29 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-144-123.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:00:49 *hefner* wishes defstruct would/could make the boa constructor automatically (without having to type the arglist) 05:03:59 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:04:56 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:10:11 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:12:39 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:33 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:16:32 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:35 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:18:08 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:19:32 LivingCorpse [i=admin@dyn11-118.res-hall.vcsu.edu] has joined #lisp 05:20:01 Locust_Laptop [i=admin@dyn11-118.res-hall.vcsu.edu] has joined #lisp 05:23:46 should I feel ashamed for my occasional naming the variable in a defmethod specializer as "this" to make it read cute and avoid typing the same name twice? 05:24:12 yes, because the pure soul calls it "self" instead 05:25:12 yeah, but that's stupid. 05:25:18 it isn't even proper english. 05:25:30 *_3b* wonders if one would name the 2nd var THAT when doing multiple dispatch 05:27:50 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:28:50 apparently I've done that twice. 05:32:20 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:33:18 <_3b> google code search says SELF is more common than THIS 05:33:26 <_3b> THIS seems pretty common in elisp though 05:34:34 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45717.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:43 -!- LivingCorpse [i=admin@dyn11-118.res-hall.vcsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:37:26 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E44B5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:42:47 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 05:44:32 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 05:45:32 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:45:35 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 05:47:34 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-144-123.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:50:51 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:59 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 05:57:01 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 05:58:50 H4ns1: well, my hunchentoot instance finally give up the ghost, but after much longer than before with a different failure mode. 06:00:56 "Argh! corrupted error depth, halting" 06:01:05 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:01:13 that could just as easily be an SBCL bug, as opposed to, say, hunchentoot doing something silly. 06:01:19 and evening folks 06:01:43 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:03:49 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:08:42 -!- dcl is now known as spiderbyte 06:09:58 -!- Locust_Laptop [i=admin@dyn11-118.res-hall.vcsu.edu] has quit [] 06:15:03 -!- gz [n=gz@209.6.18.72] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:15:15 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:17:03 nunb` [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has joined #lisp 06:17:08 -!- nunb [n=user@217.133.104.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:24:56 -!- BrianRice-mb is now known as BrianRice 06:30:39 baddog [n=Liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has joined #lisp 06:33:34 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 06:34:47 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:36:05 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has left #lisp 06:37:21 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:40:07 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:10 -!- nunb` [n=user@static-217-133-104-225.clienti.tiscali.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:46:01 slyrus_: uh - i have seen infrequent crashes of my sbcl based servers, too. 06:46:12 slyrus_: i tend to attribute them to threading. 06:46:15 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 06:48:11 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:09 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:51:35 -!- kejsaren is now known as kejsaren_ 06:51:46 -!- kejsaren_ is now known as kejsaren 06:52:20 milanj [n=milan@93.86.187.152] has joined #lisp 06:58:29 prxq_ [n=mommer@BABeae3.bab.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 06:58:35 -!- prxq [n=mommer@Yb4a4.y.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:00:36 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.187.152] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:05:59 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 07:11:51 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:13:37 Good morning. 07:14:05 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 07:14:15 hefner, is it considered good style to have the same name of the variable as of the type, otherwise? 07:14:21 fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:04 hello tic 07:16:19 tic: that is definitely acceptable style. 07:16:45 hi beach. and thanks. I've seen it elsewhere, just curious. 07:16:47 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 07:17:19 oh, now I remember. slightly off-topic, but still somewhat related: what's the best format to keep master documentation in, for use in print, web and possibly other formatrs? 07:17:33 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 07:17:51 Texinfo would be my suggestion. 07:17:52 (I currently use ReStructuredText, but it's slightly crippled) 07:18:03 It is not perfect, but everything else is worse. 07:19:19 Yeah, heh. 07:22:01 -!- esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 07:23:29 good morning 07:23:34 hello mvilleneuve 07:24:47 OK, I think I am done preparing my Lisp-talk in Paris on december 15th. 07:25:04 excellent. mind sharing? 07:27:34 I't pretty silly, really. It's a conference about relations, and I am supposed to talk about how to program relations in Lisp. 07:27:58 I think the organizer expected Lisp to be a functional programming langauge, but I am going to use CLOS instead. 07:28:01 I like silly. 07:28:45 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 07:28:57 so I am going to do mixines for symmetric, reflexive, and transitive (finite) relations and :around methods on those mixins. 07:29:05 er, *mixins 07:29:08 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 07:30:01 I guess the entire thing will give me a free meal, and perhaps some positive effects wrt info about Lisp. 07:30:14 A win-win situation. 07:30:20 -!- baddog [n=Liam@unaffiliated/baddog144] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:30:40 tic: except that it will take two days of my time, which I have very little of at the end of the year. 07:30:59 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:03 These days when I give talks, I just type expressions in real time as opposed to using a slide show, and that is somewhat impressive to people who see it for the first time. 07:31:14 Ah, cool. 07:31:35 well.. good luck, then? 07:31:39 *tic* has breakfast 07:32:04 Thanks! 07:32:28 *beach* prepares to go to work. 07:32:59 good morning 07:36:28 -!- eliasm [n=eliasm@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:41 eliasm [n=eliasm@99.246.65.73] has joined #lisp 07:39:38 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:06 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 07:43:08 -!- UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:43:27 -!- Raynes [i=kvirc@AC8276C9.ipt.aol.com] has left #lisp 07:44:41 -!- fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:44:42 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:47:19 -!- thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:47:27 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:47:36 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:47:38 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 07:47:50 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 07:48:04 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 07:48:17 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 07:48:49 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:49:36 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 07:49:55 nostoi [n=nostoi@250.Red-81-39-229.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:53:51 Tordek_ [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 07:55:17 gz [n=gz@209.6.18.72] has joined #lisp 07:57:38 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:04:51 -!- gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6fcb08397ae28cf4] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:08:22 -!- Tordek_ is now known as Tordek 08:11:45 Good morning. 08:12:44 elurin [n=user@78.166.101.138] has joined #lisp 08:16:35 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:21:45 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 08:23:06 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:30:13 elderK [n=elderK@203-167-171-17.dialup.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 08:30:41 Lo' folks! 08:32:26 appletizer [i=a@82-46-31-101.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:33:03 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:15 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:36:00 /exit 08:36:01 -!- optikalmouse [n=user@bas1-toronto10-1279398373.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 08:36:36 -!- prxq_ [n=mommer@BABeae3.bab.pppool.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:36:39 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp91-122-99-104.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 08:38:41 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:57 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:42:43 'morning 08:42:53 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:43:40 spiaggia: good morning 08:43:51 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 08:44:07 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:45:39 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:46:47 vtl [n=user@nat/redhat/x-2104f5ef89e1c11a] has joined #lisp 08:47:23 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:17 Hey guys, I have a simple question about arrays in CL. 08:50:33 In C, we could have a 4 byte array (uint8_t array[4];) 08:50:41 and we could cast it to an integer, via integer pointer. 08:50:48 Is it possible to do that in CL? 08:50:51 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:50:57 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 08:51:23 I read something along the lines of, a symbol has no type - but the variable itself does. 08:51:26 Or something similar to that? 08:51:38 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@250.Red-81-39-229.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:52:30 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 08:52:33 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:55:57 Sorry folks, have to run. 08:56:01 Have fun! 08:56:03 -!- elderK [n=elderK@203-167-171-17.dialup.clear.net.nz] has quit [] 08:59:16 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:59:51 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 08:59:59 mega1 [n=mega@3e70d9d5.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:04:24 tcr [n=tcr@p4FD3D183.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:16 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:14:12 Zephtar [n=srusek@d62-185.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:14:21 minion: memo for elderK: No, it's not possible, in standard Common Lisp, to interpret an array of four bytes as an integer. To begin with, in Lisp, integers don't take only four bytes, they are only limited by the available memory. Then lisp tries very hard to isolate you from low level considerations, such as how integers are represented, so you can spend more time thinking how to implement strong AI, or other such hard problems. 09:14:21 Remembered. I'll tell elderK when he/she/it next speaks. 09:14:46 eevar2 [n=jalla@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:17:00 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:21:53 pjb pasted "bytes <-> integer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71630 09:21:59 matimago: I asked myself a similar question, and your answer doesn't address this problem: when you have a binary stream, and you *know* that those specific bytes are a big-endian-4-bytes-integer, isn't there a bette way than doing shifts and arithmetic ? 09:22:37 kuwabara: that's the point! When you have a specific stream, how do *you* know what bytesex is used? 09:22:38 AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has joined #lisp 09:23:18 phao [n=phao@20158159067.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 09:23:19 matimago: I agree 09:23:27 kuwabara: for example, you may be programming on a Intel processor that's little endian an Internet application where binary data is transmited in big endian. 09:23:54 So you have to convert byte sequences to integers explicitely in one way or another. 09:25:12 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:25:14 kuwabara: another example is that clisp uses little endian for unsigned-bytes streams whatever the bytesex of the underlying processor, to make the files it generates portable across all systems where clisp runs. 09:25:38 matimago: oh, that's a nice feature, I like it 09:25:38 -!- elurin [n=user@78.166.101.138] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:25:57 kuwabara: but you lose "compatibility" with other programs running on the same processor, when it's big endian. 09:26:11 kuwabara: so again, you have to convert explicitely your byte sequences. 09:28:44 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 09:31:12 er... does anybody know how to compile all slime source files in AllegroCL? some files are not compiled by asdf. 09:31:13 -!- Zephtar [n=srusek@d62-185.icpnet.pl] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 09:31:32 Zephtar [n=srusek@d62-185.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:32:26 huangjs: I don't know, but there may be some files that are implementation specific, and not needed with AllegroCL. What files are not compiled? 09:34:45 matimago: ok, it turn out that i didn't initialize slime properly. it's ok now. 09:36:38 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-156-75.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:40 etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-44-109.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:52 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:39:42 -!- Zephtar [n=srusek@d62-185.icpnet.pl] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 09:40:42 Zephtar [n=s@d62-185.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 09:44:35 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:46:26 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:48:58 Grilinctus [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 09:49:55 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:50:18 -!- cmm- [n=cmm@bzq-79-181-9-239.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:11 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:55:36 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 09:55:43 jestocost [n=cmell@cad43e-243.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:56:00 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a5b-016.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:56:49 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:13 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 09:59:50 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:03:56 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:07:57 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:08:21 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:09:58 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:17:17 -!- holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:17:42 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:45 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:21:14 -!- etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-44-109.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.4 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 10:23:04 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 10:24:00 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:25:06 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:08 fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:16 kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5a1bb6b6b0925f12] has joined #lisp 10:32:21 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:33:49 hello lispers 10:34:27 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:38:13 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:39:59 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:45:13 -!- phao [n=phao@20158159067.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:46:19 ths_ [n=ths@p549AF392.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:07 phao [n=phao@20158159067.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 10:48:28 good afternoon 10:50:16 hi nikodemus. You can demark all my reader related patches I originally sent to the mailing list. I'll send updated ones peu a peu 10:51:22 -!- ths [n=ths@X4607.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:52:59 -!- fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit ["Quit"] 10:57:00 tcr: answer to your original mail, that way the marks remain valid on the thread 10:57:01 attila_lendvai, memo from weirdo: i suppose (equal o some-instance) is now OK to use in conjunction with dynamic TYPEP? 11:01:03 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:07:50 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:08:24 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 11:08:47 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:13:32 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 11:15:01 clsmith [n=cls@82-46-12-86.cable.ubr07.aztw.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:17:13 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@bb219-75-45-240.singnet.com.sg] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:17:22 Hey. Could someone please tell me what's wrong with line 25? (append *mem* '(0)) is meant to add 0 onto the end of the the list, but instead it seems to duplicate the last item of the list, so (25 5) becomes (25 5 5). http://pastebin.com/d7c383632 11:17:29 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:18:41 clsmith: your code is not very readable, as it is indented all wrong 11:18:50 H4ns: Meh. How so? 11:18:54 jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-20-163.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 11:19:06 clsmith: i guess that you are not using an editor that indents correctly for you 11:19:12 *clsmith* only started Lisp yesterday, for the record. 11:19:14 clsmith: is *mem* a list ? 11:19:18 <_3b> was there more wrong with the indentation than just having a huge tab stop? 11:19:23 And no, I'm using gedit. It doesn't even have syntax highlighting... 11:19:34 kiuma: It is. 11:19:50 clsmith: sbcl ? 11:19:51 clsmith: not about your error, but you can use case, instead of cond and char= 11:20:23 clsmith: what book are you using to learn lisp? 11:20:39 H4ns: I'm not. I'm using various internet guides and such. 11:20:53 minion: tell clsmith about pcl 11:20:54 clsmith: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 11:21:00 minion: tell clsmith about gentle 11:21:00 clsmith: please see gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 11:21:44 clsmith: There's no function EXIT in the Common Lisp standard; use (error "Fatal Error: ...") instead of the (block ...) stuff 11:21:48 clsmith: also, consider using emacs as editor for lisp source. it indents correctly. 11:22:14 tcr: Ah, thanks. Yeah, that bit of code hadn't run yet. 11:22:20 <_3b> clsmith: are you sure it isn't line 28 breaking things? 11:22:38 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 11:22:38 clsmith: Appending an item to a list is an O(n) operation. Also NTH indicates that're probably using the wrong data structures. (Lisp does have arrays) 11:22:53 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 11:23:23 clsmith: I suggest reading through PCL, then try to write that piece of code again. 11:23:29 tcr: Yeah, I tried to set up an array but it failed and everything went crazy. So I backstepped. 11:23:38 <_8david> clsmith: I don't see any code in your paste that would cause this, but note that '(0) is a literal that you might have changed accidentally. If you used a destructive function somewhere to change the 0 in that list to a 5, the behaviour you're describing could be possible. But it wouldn't be APPEND's fault as such. 11:25:11 With the first append, it goes (10) -> (10 0), and that works fine. With the second and later ones, I print the append on its own, and it prints (10 7 0). But when I setf, the value becomes (10 7 7). 11:25:40 clsmith: s/block/progn/ && s/exit/return/ 11:25:57 <_8david> clsmith: my bet is on lines 31 and 33 11:26:12 <_3b> clsmith: does replacing '(0) with (list 0) change anything? 11:26:59 _3b: It does! That works perfectly. 11:27:01 <_8david> (Apologies for my unusual approach of trying answering the original question :-)) 11:27:39 _3b: I thought I tried that. But obviously not. Thanks. 11:27:40 <_3b> clsmith: _8david figured it out, i just explained it in an easier to test form :) 11:27:57 _3b: why ? (append '(1) '(0)) works 11:28:35 tcr: if you can, it's best if you send new patches as replies to their predecessors -- but no biggie 11:28:48 <_3b> kiuma: '(0) is a literal, so if append adds that list without copying it, and the implementation cares about modifying literals, and you modify the result of append, you have a problem :) 11:29:34 _3b: thx 11:29:36 <_3b> (actually, remove one of those ifs... append is specified to not copy the final list) 11:30:11 <_3b> clsmith: (setf *ip* (+ *ip* dir)) -> (incf *ip* dir) 11:30:42 <_3b> clsmith: (if condition (do-something)) -> (when condition (do-something)) 11:30:43 _3b: Ah, I didn't realise you could do that. 11:30:44 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 11:31:08 _3b: I thought it was always just 1. I guess with a 2nd parameter that makes more sense. 11:31:33 <_3b> clsmith: (= foo 0) -> (zerop foo) 11:31:36 guys, can you move fundamental lisp teaching to some other place? thank you. 11:31:50 -!- bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:31:54 <_3b> H4ns: sorry 11:32:25 H4ns: we need every newbie we can get ;-) 11:33:14 lispm_: yes, agreed. but we need them to learn lisp properly. did you look at the paste? it looks shitty, put honestly. 11:33:59 H4ns: I only started yesterday. Being mortal, I am bound to output shit for a while. :) 11:34:03 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45717.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:16 bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 11:34:56 H4ns: you are BRUTAL! 11:35:32 *sigh* 11:35:34 clsmith: Being mortal, you're bound to output shit for your entire life. But that discussion probably belongs to the #physiology channel :) 11:35:47 clsmith: please continue 11:35:52 lispm_: have fun! :) 11:36:00 haha 11:36:41 wasn't there a newbie Lisp channel? 11:36:47 some garden guys? 11:36:58 #cl-gardeners iirc 11:37:32 that and #lispcafe 11:37:54 what is lispcafe for? 11:38:28 <_3b> lispcafe is for stuff that annoys #lisp 11:38:51 <_8david> Hey, one or two newbie questions are fine. So far I didn't find this one nearly as bad as, say, banisterfiend's unwillingness to look up backquote it a book yesterday. At least the question was interesting to figure out. :-) 11:38:56 ah! sounds good 11:39:58 _8david: i agree as long as it is about answering questions, and not about discussing shitty programs that should be written in a completely different manner in the first place :) 11:40:04 the pointers the books by H4ns were very useful, clsmith check them out! 11:42:39 <_8david> Right. I just hope that one of our ops steps up and does the useful newbie-taming work Xach used to do, because it'd be a pity if promising new arrivals in this channel would be greated with disdain only because we failed to deal with someone else a day before. 11:44:11 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:44:57 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.87.197] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:45:23 I think there is a 'lisp critic' - some code that looks at other Lisp code. 11:45:37 Maybe that should be connected to paste.lisp.org 11:45:49 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.87.197] has joined #lisp 11:45:55 "criticize this paste" 11:46:23 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:46:57 it is here: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/exercises/critic.html#critic 11:47:20 well, one pastes code and it gets rejected, until one does clean up the code 11:47:55 elurin [n=user@193.140.230.89] has joined #lisp 11:48:05 lispm_: hrr, yeah! i can see how a lot of positive feedback about that feature will end up in this channel :) 11:48:29 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45717.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:48:53 A critic for Lisp: 11:48:55 http://www.cs.colorado.edu/department/publications/reports/docs/CU-CS-365-87.pdf 11:54:41 <_8david> Style is very subjective and needs careful judgement. Unsurprisingly, the code in that paper is about toy examples only. 12:00:24 _8david: i think it basically tries to address homework programs 12:01:34 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 12:04:58 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:07:26 Basic rule: if a function has more than fifty variables with * in their names, then barf. 12:07:58 *_3b* thinks the names don't matter if you have 50 vars in 1 function 12:08:44 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:28 lispm_: AFAIK, the "Lisp critic" was written in LeLisp, and criticized LeLisp code. We should write one for CL. 12:09:39 aerique_ [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:10:04 -!- aerique_ [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit [Client Quit] 12:12:39 see H4ns pointer, that should be for CL 12:13:11 fifty? I'm sure you meant five 12:15:00 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 12:15:15 mulligan [n=user@75-59.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 12:15:15 lispm_: Ah! right. I was thinking of Wertz's Phenarete. http://portal.acm.org/citation.cfm?id=802950 12:15:49 the link I posted looks like Interlisp / Franzlisp 12:16:14 Genera has a function compiler:check-style-form 12:16:40 the user can define own style checks 12:17:25 at least it knows about the famous READ-FROM-STRING bug 12:17:59 (read-from-string "foo" :end 2) 12:18:01 the lisp-critic by H4ns's link uses rules too 12:18:20 right! 12:18:28 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:19:52 applied to the code by clsmith, it can be taught to warn about cond & char= (by default it knows only eql) 12:22:03 -!- mulligan [n=user@75-59.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:22:32 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 12:23:31 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:26:18 lispm_: what's the bug there?... 12:27:12 sykopomp: it takes optional arguments 12:27:29 clhs read-from-string 12:27:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_fro.htm 12:28:11 oh. That's annoying... 12:28:23 it takes BOTH optional and keyword arguments. 12:28:28 it is ! 12:28:47 build to fail! 12:29:09 and two optionals, one optional would signal an error 12:29:09 Just remember to give all optional arguments before the keywords. 12:30:27 and the compiler can't really complain, since (read-from-string "foo" :end 2) is valid 12:31:36 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:34:03 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@114-198-50-132.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 12:34:45 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:35:44 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:35:46 well, style warning is always allowed 12:36:34 which i might just tack on, since i spent an hour looking for a non-existent stream bug last week having done just that 12:40:06 -!- clsmith [n=cls@82-46-12-86.cable.ubr07.aztw.blueyonder.co.uk] has left #lisp 12:40:29 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-165-14.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:42:12 -!- topo [n=topo@53.pool85-58-128.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 12:44:04 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:45:30 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 12:46:07 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:46:48 cracki [n=cracki@45-150.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:48:41 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@ti0026a340-0013.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 12:50:30 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:53:27 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:07 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:56:24 hmm, so the optionals are non-optionals if you want to use keywords, then 12:56:26 lovely :) 12:57:15 there's this great clim function with 10 optionals, followed by one keyword argument 12:57:35 has anyone EVER used the keyword argument? 12:58:15 (I'm reminded of item 2 here: http://www.ddj.com/architect/184405745) 12:58:33 rsynnott: :start and :end are quite practicaly to parse big texts. 12:59:12 matimago: no, I meant on the clim function 12:59:22 I think I've used :start and :end on read-from-string 13:00:04 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:00:05 ok 13:00:52 jsnell: what does the offending function do? 13:02:53 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:56 clim note-output-record-child-changed 13:02:57 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/21-3.html#_1039 13:03:14 (I think that's the one I was thinking of, I have no idea of what it does) 13:03:47 *rsynnott* shudders 13:03:59 looks like a typical GUI library function :) 13:04:20 note the companion function propagate-output-record-changes that takes the same optionals, except the key from the first function is now also an optional 13:04:49 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:04:49 jsnell: wouldn't it be more efficient to use only mandatory arguments? 13:05:09 though, apparently 'check-overlapping is as for compute-difference-set' so possibly it is not meant to be used by humans 13:05:38 matimago: just try that with this function and see how far you get: http://www.weitz.de/drakma/#http-request 13:05:42 :) 13:05:42 but is there any point in having one key parameter? 13:05:57 readability? 13:06:14 not particularly, especially if it's after about five optionals :) 13:07:55 I tend to use keywords instead of optionals. No optional, one keyword would be ok. 13:08:31 it makes more sense if there's any prospect of you adding more in the future 13:08:54 is there an extra runtime cost for keyword params as compared to optionals? 13:09:42 Well, at least pushing the keywords. 13:09:50 that must be the thought process they went through. look! we've already added 5 optionals, and are adding a 6th. surely a 7th and 8th are about to be added at any time, so we should upgrade to keywords 13:09:54 and scanning them, since keyword can go in any order. 13:10:09 keyword args are going to be a lot slower in general 13:10:16 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:10:32 But my point is that for external functions, keywords are more readable, and for internal functions you'd use only mandatory parameters. 13:10:55 inlined entry function that parse keywords and call an underlying function with required's only FTW! 13:11:07 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:11:12 couldn't the compiler at least resolve them into optionals, in principle? 13:11:29 ? 13:11:29 only if you recompile all call sites if the function is changed 13:11:38 ah, I suppose so 13:12:02 might be a nice optimisation for releases, though 13:12:18 <_3b> doesn't work well with non-constant keywords either (those are ugly though) 13:12:43 (apply function alist)? 13:13:11 plist 13:14:10 (I suppose if you really wanted to you could do it yourself...) 13:18:28 arghs, stupid me 13:18:42 I sent a mail that was supposed to go to sbcl-devel to slime-devel 13:19:14 that'll confuse people 13:19:18 -!- arbscht_ is now known as arbscht 13:19:25 Quick! Hack an AI worm that will got to slime-devel host and redirect your mail to sbcl-devel 13:19:45 s/got/go/ 13:20:13 is sbcl-devel still on that horrible sourceforge mailing list thing? 13:20:23 yes 13:20:40 Let it up to your AI worm to find out ;-) 13:23:21 -!- huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has left #lisp 13:24:22 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 13:24:29 -!- cracki [n=cracki@45-150.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 13:27:58 i miss good old days when majordomo was popular 13:28:00 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 13:28:29 blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.6.197] has joined #lisp 13:28:52 *matimago* misses LISTSERV... 13:30:00 unlike mailman, you could request historical emails to be resent 13:30:06 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 13:30:07 personal archives FTW! 13:30:19 I've just had experience with phplist, a newfangled replacement which doesn't work properly 13:30:49 (despite its popularity, it doesn't have an API. Current solution is to log in and submit a form with drakma to add a user) 13:33:19 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 13:34:28 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:35:50 nikodemus: I forgot to say so explicitly in my mail, but the patches do not introduce a regression in sbcl test suite, neither in ansi-tests. 13:35:51 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:36:44 tcr: why the inlining of a-n-s-rt? 13:39:39 I mistakenly thought it was used in READ itself, but that's of course wrong. 13:40:52 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 13:42:34 generally speaking inlining should be restricted to placed where it allows the compiler to do a better job, or where the body of the function ends up containing no full calls 13:42:52 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16AD65.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:42:54 (or where there a measurable benefits, of course) 13:43:14 not that sbcl code base as a whole follows that... 13:44:05 I'd make get-cat-entry inline again. 13:45:02 in my readtable-iterator it's used in a (< char base-char-code-limit) branch 13:45:25 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:45:35 but I'll add the inline declaims myself in that patch. (It's not ready anyway) 13:46:04 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:07 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:46:12 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70d9d5.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:46:45 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:13 next patches in my queue are (once the current set got applied), splitting up some reader-errors into more specific conditions (I need that for an application), and then moving the reader in its own sb-reader package. 13:51:26 i'm still not sold on the sb-reader package. i think part of it belong in sb-int, and parts in sb-ext (but i don't claim to have thought about it properly) 13:51:44 and iirc some of the other committers liked it 13:51:53 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:52:19 benny` [n=benny@i577A15EE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 13:55:59 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BD63.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:58:09 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:02:11 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 14:04:53 -!- jsoft_ [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:06:56 cracki [n=cracki@45-150.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:06:58 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A18D9.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:27 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:08:45 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 14:09:18 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Operation timed out] 14:09:31 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 14:15:11 esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:16:43 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 14:19:37 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cad43e-243.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:22:34 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:23:39 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-212.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:23:40 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 14:23:58 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 14:26:01 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 14:30:03 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:34:09 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8aa0-015.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:36:40 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.131.220] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:36:53 metasyntax [n=taylor@75.149.208.122] has joined #lisp 14:38:58 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:40 -!- elurin [n=user@193.140.230.89] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:41:07 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-61.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 14:42:38 -!- m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:42:49 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:44:16 -!- dfox_ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:50:26 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:51:23 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:51:28 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:51:33 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 14:57:08 -!- metasyntax [n=taylor@75.149.208.122] has quit ["leaving"] 15:00:28 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:01:23 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:18 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has joined #lisp 15:04:22 tcr: fwiw, i wouldn't abbreviate CHAR-ATTR-TABLE 15:10:17 ejs1 [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 15:10:17 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:11:50 -!- UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has left #lisp 15:13:20 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:13:49 chr-atr-tbl 15:13:50 demmeln [i=demmeln@atradig111.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 15:15:39 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-20-163.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:15:47 *tic* hands lispm_ a bunch of wovels. 15:15:51 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 15:16:37 lispm_: careful, or you'll turn into paul graham 15:16:59 oh oh! 15:17:55 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.244.0] has joined #lisp 15:19:43 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:19:44 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:20:22 tcr: Hi. Aren't you the slime developer from the munich lisp meeting on Wednesday? 15:20:54 he probably is, how was it? 15:20:58 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:21:12 esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 15:21:30 -!- _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:21:37 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:21:48 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 15:22:01 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:22:21 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:14 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.244.0] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:23:16 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:24:52 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:06 waldofll [n=waldofll@12.150.195.83] has joined #lisp 15:31:41 tic: are you there? 15:32:35 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3132.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:34:04 waldofll, yeah. 15:34:14 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 15:34:32 nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp124.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 15:36:03 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:59 -!- cracki [n=cracki@45-150.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:37:34 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska182223.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:38:36 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:46 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.251.140] has joined #lisp 15:39:12 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-61.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 15:39:26 milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.38] has joined #lisp 15:41:41 disumu [n=disumu@p57A25BA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:56 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:43:22 tic: I was reading the logs and noticed that a few days ago you were chatting with luis (he was working on some HL7 messages project). You mentioned you had done some work on that in the past to parse HL7 messages 15:43:56 ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:58 waldofll, oh, not really. you got the wrong impression, I'm afraid. I was merely doing HL7 message verification by hand at Siemens Medical Solutions. 15:44:23 -!- Grilinctus is now known as Aankhen`` 15:44:25 tic: Ah. I see. I guess I did get the wrong impression :) 15:44:31 waldofll, sorry. 15:44:31 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:44:46 evenin' 15:44:47 by hand? eek 15:44:56 tic: I'm new to Lisp and am trying to develop an ANSI X12 message parser 15:45:09 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 15:45:14 waldofll, have a look at the RFC-something-or-the-other parser screencast at lispm.dyndns.org 15:45:37 divinebovine [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 15:45:40 tic: thanks, will do 15:45:48 rsynnott, hey, who needs unit testing, right? 15:46:17 nunb [n=user@217.133.104.225] has joined #lisp 15:46:22 looking at the source of a corba implementation might also be useful? 15:46:53 -!- nunb [n=user@217.133.104.225] has quit [Client Quit] 15:47:13 nunb [n=user@217.133.104.225] has joined #lisp 15:49:45 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.82.27.111] has joined #lisp 15:50:20 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:51:22 kidd1 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:36 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 15:51:39 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:53:16 -!- phao [n=phao@20158159067.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:54:27 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E452C1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:40 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:58:52 willb [n=wibenton@wireless34.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:59:44 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 15:59:49 it is the worst code ever, but still. I'm happy with having shadows and shading :) In a strange form of misplaced proudness: I can has raytracer \o/ http://img68.imageshack.us/img68/8354/renderfz6.png 16:00:06 *tic* hopes it's a cat 16:00:32 maybe if I squint just so. 16:00:41 tic: built out of primitives?! 16:00:48 madnificent, sure. 16:00:48 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:01:06 two spheres and a set of circular planes. 16:01:26 or just a bunch of balls, depending on how anatomically correct you want to be. :) 16:01:29 Looks like a cat to me. 16:01:37 tic: I'll write a lisp-format to define stuff later, now I had to parse xml, which doesn't make that easy... but with a minor effort, defining scenes with lisp would be 10e10 times more efficient 16:01:40 a bit abstract maybe, but you can tell it is a cat. 16:01:49 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:01:50 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:01:52 madnificent, have you measured? (the 10e10 number) 16:02:02 I think you have a rounding error there. 16:02:50 tic: aaah damn! I haven't enabled the alien technology for that 10e10 -_- 16:04:54 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["leaving"] 16:05:06 esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:06:36 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:08:08 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45717.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:08:27 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:10:21 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has left #lisp 16:11:23 pwned [n=epitaph@88.251.69.159] has joined #lisp 16:13:50 Hey guys, I'm new to Lisp and have been using SBCL on OSX. However I keep coming across different libraries which some support some versions of Lisp and not others, etc. "Assuming" license fees are not an obstacle, which are the two most recommended Lisps you guys could recommend using? 16:13:50 Of concern are: most compatibility with third party libraries as well as compatibility between OSX and Linux environments (OSX for development, Linux for production) 16:14:10 sorry, I lost connection so I'll repost just in case 16:14:18 Hey guys, I'm new to Lisp and have been using SBCL on OSX. However I keep coming across different libraries which some support some versions of Lisp and not others, etc. "Assuming" license fees are not an obstacle, which are the two most recommended Lisps you guys could recommend using? 16:14:20 SBCL is popular. 16:14:22 Of concern are: most compatibility with third party libraries as well as compatibility between OSX and Linux environments (OSX for development, Linux for production) 16:14:37 But also the commercial Lisps, such as LispWorks. 16:15:16 Those are the ones I come across the most (SBCL and LispWorks) but wanted to get other people's opinions 16:15:26 -!- ejs2 [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:18:00 waldofll: clozure has very good integration with OSX 16:18:03 including cocoa 16:18:34 is there a standard cl lib for making console/terminal applications? 16:18:41 something _not_ ncurses. 16:18:49 but SBCL is probably your best bet for compatibility. I think lispworks is up there, too. 16:19:24 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 16:19:25 thanks sykopomp, tic 16:20:15 LispWorks has a cross-platform IDE 16:20:23 works fine on OSX 16:20:29 so does emacs >_> 16:20:39 emacs is an editor 16:20:50 waldofll: What kind of applications? If it was something server-side only (or where GUI doesn't matter), I would go for SBCL (but I wouldn't mind buying Lispworks if I had enough money) 16:21:06 lispm_: It's an interesting OS with lousy editor :P 16:21:20 minion: tell bougyman about cl-screen 16:21:21 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cl-screen''. 16:21:23 doh 16:21:36 chandler: googling, thanks. 16:21:38 bougyman: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-screen/ 16:21:43 emacs is a lousy OS with a so-so editor with lots of interesting extensions 16:21:44 minion: cl-screen? 16:21:45 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cl-screen''. 16:21:57 lispm_: emacs + SLIME + redshank + paredit is the best damn IDE I've ever had the pleasure of using. 16:22:06 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.160.4] has joined #lisp 16:22:18 sykopomp, really? 16:22:39 lispm_: you sound like you've never used slime + paredit 16:22:48 p_l: good point. mainly backend server-side applications (no GUI other than a web browser) 16:22:57 bougyman: fwiw, I wrote a system of about 30 lines that handles building menus... it is probably highly inferior (it is to be extended when needed), but imho it worked rather fine (and easy to understand). 16:23:02 GNU emacs is 316,561 lines of C code waiting to be translated into 30,000 lines of Common Lisp... 16:23:02 is there a sparc solaris sbcl binary newer than 0.9.11? 16:23:08 emacs is the best damn IDE I've ever had the pleasure of using, even without SLIME.. 16:23:12 sykopomp: I have here Aquamacs, SLIME, redshank and paredit 16:23:26 Did not sabetts already make a CL implementation of emacs? 16:23:34 I used paredit, but I could never get it to be nice (After I redefine few keys, then maybe...) 16:23:43 schme: he did? 16:23:45 schme: Really? Where could one find it? 16:23:55 sykopomp: but I much prefer the LispWorks IDE, Closure CL could be useful some time 16:23:56 sellout: I seem to remember so. or maybe it was only for movitz. 16:24:02 V-ille: Well. I'm not so sure :) 16:24:03 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:24:07 ah, yeah ... right. 16:24:10 lispm_: What do you prefer about the lispworks IDE? 16:24:28 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:35 schme: that would be FRED. 16:24:45 http://www.cl-user.net/asp/dwS7/sdataQkIjWocECuUvDQdk9y8X8yBX8yBXnMq=/sdataQu3F$sSHnB== 16:24:47 sykopomp: it does not use text buffers for everything 16:24:49 LiCE, yes. 16:24:53 matimago: FRED? 16:25:06 lispm_: that's my favorite part about emacs :) 16:25:12 http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/CommonLispEmacs 16:25:16 says it runs on sbcl too. 16:25:35 sykopomp: I find the basic interaction cycle flawed with SLIME 16:25:38 lispm_: I'm pretty comfortable with emacs bindings (well, heavily customized, as they should be), and I'm pretty quick with buffer management, so it turns into an extremely integrated environment for doing everything. 16:25:46 matimago: That's not the one I was thinking of. I was thinking of LiCE 16:25:55 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:26:02 -!- pwned_ [n=epitaph@78.176.99.185] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:26:13 lispm_: I don't know what the flaw is, but I certainly don't do the annoying C-c C-z to switch to repl thing. 16:26:15 I've been using Emacs+paredit+SLIME+SBCL so far and seems good. I just don't have any other IDE to compare it against 16:26:29 sykopomp: I hate getting lost in buffers after some time, the tend to pop up everywhere, and are hard to get rid of, the buffers of hell! ;-) 16:26:40 lispm_: iswitchb? 16:26:52 lispm_: funny. I don't have that experience at all. I'm really used to it. And yes, iswitchb is your friend. 16:27:03 what's that? 16:27:04 schme: right, FRED is AN emacs. 16:27:17 I also have an iresize thing now, thanks to stassats, which has made it even nicer. 16:27:25 FRED resembles emacs deliberatively 16:27:29 lispm_: iswitchb is a much nicer buffer switcher. 16:27:47 but rms doesn't like it, so it's not default :P 16:27:48 ido can help too 16:27:52 wow I just tried iswitchb and it's pretty nice 16:27:54 a buffer switcher? haha ;-) 16:28:22 *kzar* add's it to his .emacs 16:28:33 kzar: the only thing you should know is that C-s cycles through available buffers. That's the only gotcha I ever ran into :P 16:28:51 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:28:53 sykopomp: heh ok 16:29:00 -!- kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5a1bb6b6b0925f12] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:29:30 banisterfiend [n=john@203.97.217.154] has joined #lisp 16:29:57 lispm_: buffers are your friend. I have a few dozen open at any given time ;) 16:30:10 sykopomp, me too 16:30:30 sykopomp, but also in LispWorks 16:30:48 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:49 LispWorks's editor is a derivative of Hemlock 16:30:54 Emacs written in CL 16:31:06 that sounds pretty nice 16:31:13 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.160.4] has quit [] 16:31:18 I really hope climacs becomes a usable environment at some point 16:31:20 chandler: sb-screen looks like poo. 16:31:40 sykopomp: climacs, etc. has a lot of potential, very nice stuff 16:31:55 -!- vtl [n=user@nat/redhat/x-2104f5ef89e1c11a] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:32:19 hothoofs [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:21 lispm_: I would gladly switch to climacs if it didn't crash constantly and had a bit more support for a few basics 16:32:38 I mean, I would totally start porting .el scripts over to it, too 16:32:44 right, needs more hacking, but the direction is right and the code looks hackable 16:32:56 but I can't even type in it right now unless I have my mouse -over- the widget I'm typing into 16:33:20 oh, so the architecture is good? I was worried that poor architecture may have been part of the problem (I haven't looked at the code yet, though) 16:33:31 simple things I like, in Zmacs the buffer list comes as a typeout window 16:33:36 trying to stay away from it, because I know I'll get sucked into it, hehe. 16:33:46 typeout? 16:34:15 yeah, a window that scrolls down from the top as long as you need it and then disappeards 16:34:33 that's pretty nice. 16:35:01 for example in Zmacs you can press suspend and get a REPL in a typeout window and everything in the window underneath is mousable 16:35:08 what I'm not sure I like about climacs is that I won't be able to run it in terminal :( 16:35:18 press suspend, gone away 16:36:16 then again, climacs seems to be more of an editor than emacs is :) 16:36:26 which is nice 16:37:02 sykopomp: make a curses backend ;) 16:37:24 the best thing is to have an editor that concentrates on editing and editor widgets that one can place in windows, where needed 16:37:27 sellout: :P 16:37:49 What .el stuff would be interesting to port to climacs though? 16:37:50 lispm_: as long as it doesn't make me touch the rat, ever, I'm happy with it. 16:37:52 paredit I guess. 16:37:57 hmm.. 16:38:04 lispm_: the rat is an unacceptable excuse for an input device 16:38:21 sykopomp: You don't like mice? 16:38:34 cracki [n=cracki@45-150.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:38:44 sykopomp: well, I found that mouseing on the Lisp Machine is quite useful 16:38:45 I don't touch my mouse unless i'm forced to, which tends to be a small number of particularly annoying websites. 16:38:52 I see. 16:39:00 I find mice a very very good input device. 16:39:03 I'd like an emacs written in CL with elisp->CL compiler, with no dependency on a certain window system (i.e. one session could shared between terminal and windowing system) and with multithreading... :) 16:39:05 I prefer trackball though :) 16:39:14 I find it to be a slow, clunky input device. And yes, I have a trackball too. 16:39:19 hmm.. 16:39:22 at least slow and clunky for most tasks 16:39:28 and *specially* for text editing of any sort 16:39:31 I can't imagine using anything but for most tasks. 16:39:38 sykopomp: think everything on the screen is some Lisp objects and responds to the mouse some way 16:39:55 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:39:55 Only things I don't like it for is well.. writing code, and irc ;) 16:40:10 A mouse+chording keyboard in one (with vertical hand placement) would be very good device (I need to make one, one of these days) 16:40:23 *schme* tries to imagining CAD work with just keyboard. 16:40:25 schme: I use a tiling window manager, and conkeror as my browser. I find I work much much faster when I only use my keyboard. 16:40:25 yuck. 16:40:33 well, yes, there's some tasks that need a mouse. 16:40:41 graphics-related stuff and games, for example 16:40:44 sykopomp: I use xmonad meself.. But most tasks I use computers for definitely work better with mouse. 16:40:49 Hmm.. 16:40:57 Dunno about games, zangband works great without a mouse. 16:40:58 schme: erm... My father uses AutoCAD a lot, and there's lot of keyboard usage 16:41:15 CAD is exceptional among graphics stuff, in that 16:41:15 schme: I'm thinking stuff like FPS, RTS, etc. 16:41:23 p_l: Yes, of course. I work with AutoCAD daily. I'm just saying to *avoid* using anything but the keyboard seems fucking dumb. 16:41:51 sykopomp: Well... I dunno. Ijust play bg anyway :) 16:41:53 with the mouse ;) 16:41:55 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:42:00 schme: Much faster for most tasks, when you have the right tools. 16:42:07 schme: The most proficient is I think chording keyboard in one hand, mouse in the other 16:42:25 or maybe two integrated mouse+keyboard things 16:42:29 p_l: I see.. Ilike my spacepilot in one hand, and mouse in other. 16:42:32 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 16:42:40 but, like, I use a terminal as my main file manager/OS interface, emacs for a bunch of things, conkeror as a browser. Really, most tasks I spend my time on are much better with the keyboard. 16:42:44 oudeis [n=oudeis@87.70.247.109] has joined #lisp 16:42:45 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:42:50 I try to avoid the keyboard best I can.. which is neat with all the programmable buttons on the spacepilot :) 16:43:13 sykopomp: I very much agree with you that for text editing keyboard is the best :) 16:43:16 schme: That's the kind of stuff I want to make - except that chording keyboard would allow me to write text with it :) 16:43:25 p_l: I see. 16:43:36 Also, my main reason to avoid mouse is because I work on a laptop 16:43:43 schme: one can use the mouse for some editing tasks just fine 16:43:56 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:43:56 p_l: Didn't they have one of those somewhat handshaped keyboards.. one for each hand. maybe put a mouse wheel under it. 16:43:59 lispm_: too slow 16:44:07 checkout the mouse copy stuff in redshank 16:44:17 lispm_: Of course one can. I have composed whole letters just using a mouse input device. 16:44:29 Well 'cept the part where redshank is broken I'd check it out ;) 16:44:33 C-SPC C-w 16:44:33 schme: I'm thinking of sacrificing some cheap optical mouse and making a chording keyboard with inbuilt mouse + trackpoint 16:44:33 see 'mouse copy' 16:44:34 ;) 16:44:42 p_l: It sounds way cool. 16:44:44 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:45:06 dkcl [n=dkcl@203.66.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:45:15 p_l: I was thinking of these http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9f/DataHand_Professional_II_Keyboard-Right.jpg but with a mouse wheel underneath. 16:45:39 whoa what 16:45:48 schme: The best thing would be to make the mouse part capable of wireles communication with keyboard-trackpoint combo, so in presentation you could leave it on desk and simply walk around, showing what you want :) 16:46:42 oooh. 16:46:50 -!- divinebovine [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:46:51 that looks brutally efficient... if only I wouldn't have to learn how to type yet another time 16:46:52 Also, sometimes I have a feeling that one of my favorite sci-fi authors had seen someone using a computer the way schme does :D 16:47:05 It's so interesting to see what is good for presentation is so different from what is good for [input whatever] 16:47:21 (making this the way to control spaceships) 16:47:45 ho hum. 16:47:51 3d spacepilot seems good for that though :D 16:47:55 drdo [n=psykon@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 16:47:57 schme: what do they cost? 16:47:59 maybe with a mouse to controll the cannons. 16:48:10 madnificent: I haven't got a clue :) The company website is not working so well for me. 16:48:12 vasa [n=vasa@mm-58-91-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 16:48:21 madnificent: (if you meant the datahand) 16:48:26 hi all 16:48:30 sctb [n=sctb@mail.arcurve.com] has joined #lisp 16:48:30 madnificent: I want to make this into a kind of combo between normal chording keyboard and a keyer, so that I would have one device for both desktop and wearable computing :) 16:48:36 schme: yes 16:48:37 oh 16:48:43 "DATAHAND SYSTEMS, INC. ANNOUNCES IT IS NO LONGER MARKETING AND SELLING THE DATAHAND ERGONOMIC KEYBOARD" 16:48:46 2007 16:48:48 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 16:49:07 I guess one is out of luck there. 16:49:21 schme: so, it'll weigh in at 3000 euros (the price for that home-fap-thing) 16:49:24 anyone know library for working with intervals (like intersection of [0;1]U[5;10] and [7;10])? 16:49:32 ksergio [n=sgarcia@mail.nuecho.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:54 hehhe. 16:50:08 *schme* ends the OT. back to lisp :) 16:50:44 anyways, a keyboard like that could really speed up typing AND give less errors AND induce less rsi AND use less space... why the hell do I have this inferior model m?! (first time I have the feeling it is inferior to something) 16:51:03 I like the Das Keyboard III, because it so similar to Model M. Interesting. 16:51:17 -!- demmeln [i=demmeln@atradig111.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has left #lisp 16:51:33 I have the Das Keyboard II, the keys are a bit different than my Model M. I prefer it. 16:51:39 I have a Model M mounted on my wall ... but a Kinesis at my desk. 16:51:40 vasa: I don't know, there was a talk about it yesterday too... it might as well be that there is nothing like that. But you can build it rather easily I guess 16:51:41 bougyman: thanks for your constructive evaluation! I'll be sure to incorporate that feedback in future versions 16:52:05 sellout: that's cool! 16:52:08 madnificent=> yes, but not so easily ) 16:52:45 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483BD63.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:53:06 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:53:45 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 16:54:05 Tordek_ [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 16:54:08 What would be nice is something like stenotyping for CL. 16:54:09 yum. 16:54:11 *schme* pops off 16:56:07 chandler: FYI, generating the SBCL web pages fails for me. For some reason, it uses :EXTERNAL-FORMAT :ASCII when generating all-news.html, and then fails with: the character with code 195 cannot be encoded. 16:56:23 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:45 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:58:13 sctb: thanks to H4ns you can use a LispM keyboard on machines with USB port 16:59:05 Fancy! 16:59:10 chandler: sorry, specifically, i've got ^[[J* (+ 1 2) 16:59:14 ^[[J(^[[J+^[[J ^[[J1^[[J ^[[J2^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^[[J* ^[[1m(^[[m+ 1 2^[[1m)^[[m^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^H^[[J* (+ 1 2) 16:59:19 ^M3 16:59:23 crap 16:59:26 i meant http://rubyists.com/cl-screen.png 17:00:12 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:18 chandler: my terminal looks like that with repl.lisp both in X and on the regular console. 17:02:01 -!- cracki [n=cracki@45-150.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 17:02:40 cracki [n=cracki@45-150.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:02:52 -!- cracki [n=cracki@45-150.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:03:00 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.82.27.111] has left #lisp 17:03:12 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:03:39 bougyman: I see strange characters 17:03:54 are you an alien? 17:03:58 nossir. 17:04:00 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has left #lisp 17:04:07 but this repl looks like it may have been written for one. 17:04:13 bougyman: No idea. It sounds like s-lang isn't finding your termcap. 17:04:40 chandler: that's what I expected, but happens on the std console, too. 17:04:48 i tried other slang ui apps and they don't do this. 17:05:00 bougyman: No clue, sorry. 17:05:13 *bougyman* resigns himself to ncurses 17:05:24 Have you considered just using ANSI escapes? 17:05:33 what do you mean, in that output? 17:05:37 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:05:41 that's the repl.lisp that comes with cl-screen. 17:05:54 No, that's not what I meant. Have you considered just writing ANSI escapes as an alternative to FFI bindings? 17:06:16 http://www.termsys.demon.co.uk/vtansi.htm 17:06:23 oh, yes. but I didn't want to invent the wheel, that's the kinda library I was looking for. 17:06:46 i bet 30 years ago there were tons of libraries for text UI applications. 17:06:51 there aren't so many these days. 17:08:34 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has joined #lisp 17:11:42 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has quit [Client Quit] 17:11:46 there's also terminfo.lisp 17:12:08 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has joined #lisp 17:19:12 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-75-17-56-28.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:52 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:20:08 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:20:28 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.6.197] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:23:13 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:25:59 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:26:03 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:26:35 vasa: still here? 17:27:14 madnificent=> yes, i am here 17:28:08 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:39 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:28:57 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.72.93] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:29:10 kidd1 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:38 madnificent pasted "start of sequence support for vaza" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71646 17:30:06 vasa: ^ now extend it with whatever you need 17:31:15 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:31:22 thx 17:31:26 ** it could be written much sweeter... lambda's could have compiled logic in them, but I mainly wanted something 17:31:52 vasa: np, you'll need to extend it if you want it to do more useful things... feel free to publish it afterwards :) 17:32:19 okay ;-) 17:33:43 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:20 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 17:34:37 willb1 [n=wibenton@wireless34.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 17:35:21 -!- drdo [n=psykon@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:35:44 willb2 [n=wibenton@wireless34.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 17:36:04 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:37:55 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:38:57 -!- willb1 [n=wibenton@wireless34.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:39:51 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has left #lisp 17:40:06 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 17:41:09 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:41:31 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:43:33 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 17:44:29 besiria [n=user@ppp083212085113.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 17:45:52 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:46:55 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb3132.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:24 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:47:57 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@87.70.247.109] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:48:20 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212085113.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:48:20 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:48:22 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 17:49:42 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless34.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:52:34 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:52:47 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 17:53:58 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 17:53:59 -!- froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:13 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:41 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 17:55:55 besiria [n=user@ppp083212085113.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 17:56:18 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8aa0-015.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:56:33 jestocost [n=cmell@cad439-068.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:57:41 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 18:04:19 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:04:57 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:08:09 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:01 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:09:30 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:09:35 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit ["“Screw the mobs/npcs - I'd like to see them use that kind of AI in the other players.”"] 18:09:48 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 18:10:38 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has quit [Client Quit] 18:11:01 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 18:11:38 minion: memo for demmeln: Yes, I am. 18:11:38 Remembered. I'll tell demmeln when he/she/it next speaks. 18:11:52 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:13:08 -!- nunb [n=user@217.133.104.225] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:13:27 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-149-177.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:59 hey tcr. great talk :) why did you leave so fast? :) 18:14:03 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 18:14:58 Hun: I'm sorry, but my girlfriend was waiting for me, and the day after the presentations I went to my parents for a week. 18:15:09 ah, ok 18:15:17 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:15:29 I'll publish the presentation later today, I think. 18:15:51 Hun: Where did you sit? 18:15:54 what was the talk? 18:16:15 i was the long haired guy on the left. the one with the cpu simulator 18:16:38 i told you about transient-mark-mode 18:16:52 Ah ok 18:17:09 josemanuel [n=josemanu@182.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:17:11 You're quite young, too. :) 18:17:22 hi ho Hun ^^ 18:17:30 hehe :) it's hard to guess the age when you read only irc lines 18:17:33 hey esden 18:17:48 Hun: so you are back in Augsburg? 18:17:52 ^^ 18:17:53 yep 18:18:04 trying out some of the xref stuff right now 18:18:12 it is nice to attatch faces to nicknames *EG* 18:18:50 phao [n=phao@189.13.131.116] has joined #lisp 18:18:59 *esden* asking himself how to test functions defined by labels with slime ^^ 18:19:20 i usually cheat and make them a defun until i'm sure they work... but that's hackish 18:19:34 ltbarcly_ [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 18:19:41 is there a way to trace a local function? 18:20:07 i saw that clisp defines something like outerfun-innerfun, but that's not portable 18:20:24 mehh ... well that is what tcr said ... you can not run repl in frames ... that would be useful here ... just break in the right place of the function containing the labels functions and test away ^^ 18:20:44 right tcr? 18:21:01 i'm not sure local functions are available at that time 18:21:47 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has joined #lisp 18:21:59 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:22:36 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 18:22:46 te_ [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-d23db6229359a2df] has joined #lisp 18:24:25 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has quit [Client Quit] 18:24:30 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:06 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:28:13 -!- te [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-eb730cf33b7963f4] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:29:11 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has joined #lisp 18:29:40 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 18:30:30 I wonder if that worked in cmucl (I like to imagine everything worked in cmucl, which is purely fantasy) 18:30:40 baetis-fly [n=baetis-f@pool-96-245-219-99.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:51 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["leaving"] 18:31:22 hefner: still using it? 18:31:30 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.135.122] has quit [Client Quit] 18:31:51 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-149-177.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:33:27 no, I think I'm done with it. 18:34:11 I used it as recently as 2006 or 2007, for no particular reason except that I let ubuntu installed it and was sufficiently impressed that it and ilisp worked usably out of the box. 18:34:21 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:24 someone clearly is; development continues 18:34:31 you were still using ilisp? 18:34:43 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 18:35:16 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 18:35:18 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 18:35:19 yeah, didn't bother me a bit. it's more predictable and reliable, and I seldom need slime's fancy features. 18:36:21 mind you, I used sbcl with slime at the same time in other places, but that worked well enough that I had no motivation to spend any time screwing with the environment. 18:36:37 *attila_lendvai* couldn't live without the fuzzy completion 18:37:15 well, i could, but i were a lot slower 18:37:25 How should I go about hosting more than one hunchentoot website on the same computer? 18:37:48 you could run multiple servers 18:37:55 using multiple dispatch tables, etc.. 18:38:10 The sites all need to be on port 80 18:38:18 mogunus: an easy way is to use a webserver/proxy as a frontend which knows about multiple domains per IP address 18:38:31 virtual domains, apache calls it 18:38:53 *mogunus* nods 18:38:55 yeah, I'd do it like that. Using mod_proxy and ProxyPassReverse.. 18:39:35 Raynes [i=kvirc@ACA3A7DB.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:39:57 Is there anything lighter-weight that can do that? I was hoping not to have to use apache. 18:40:21 mogunus: I use lighttpd. It's simple and lightweight. 18:40:23 -!- Raynes [i=kvirc@ACA3A7DB.ipt.aol.com] has left #lisp 18:40:37 I think Xach uses nginx, but I'm not sure. 18:40:47 I use pound 18:41:02 though may be switching to nginx; pound is pretty limited 18:41:05 I run apache with virtual hosts in the front and mod_lisp in the back 18:41:15 this works very good 18:41:42 Hun: I don't think SBCL supports tracing local functions. 18:42:22 So my setup would be, 1. start n sbcl servers on ports whatever+n 2. set up somethiong to forward domain requests to the appropriate port? 18:42:26 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@ti0026a340-0013.bb.online.no] has left #lisp 18:42:50 mogunus: I think you can run more than one hunchentoot servers from within the same SBCL. 18:42:51 mogunus: basicly, yes 18:43:53 ahaas: actually, I was thinking that I would use multiple SBCL images, in case one went down the others would stay up. 18:44:05 Or maybe that's far too unlikely a situation to bother using multiple sbcl for. 18:44:10 mogunus: That's counter to your concern about being lightweight. 18:44:14 ahaas: you can 18:44:44 *rsynnott* can't remember exactly how, which is embarassing as I submitted the patch to make it easy in the first place :) 18:45:22 tcr: i thought so... how much work would it be to add my current approach (defun instead of flet/labels) to slime? 18:45:24 rsynnott: Yeah, it's been a while since I set mine up, but now I recall that I have it set up where I specify the port and it either starts a new server listening on that port, or it uses the dispatch handler to branch off of an existing one. 18:45:48 something to do with *meta-dispatcher* :) 18:46:05 ahaas: Can you point me at the documentation for that...? 18:46:22 mogunus: What I just described is something I added myself. 18:46:30 Ah. 18:47:00 mogunus: But "start-server" takes a port. 18:47:11 mogunus: And you don't need mod-lisp. 18:47:32 mogunus: just checked; you can pass a dispatcher to start-server 18:47:41 Hun: That's a kludge around SBCL's shortcomings. Fix the real culprit. 18:47:55 rsynnott: oh, that's great. 18:48:12 mogunus: My lighttpd config checks the requested URL and forwards to the correct port for Hunchentoot. 18:49:33 Excellent. I now have a totally clear idea as to how I'm going to do this. 18:49:45 Thanks everyone. Man, I'm glad that I never bothered to learn php or anything... 18:49:49 I have one site on port 3000 and another on 3001 18:50:05 tcr: SBCL can trace local functions on some platforms. 18:50:27 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:50:59 pkhuong: x86-32? 18:51:44 -!- ksergio [n=sgarcia@mail.nuecho.com] has left #lisp 18:51:50 ksergio [n=sgarcia@mail.nuecho.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:34 well in my case the question is if allegro swank backend can do it ^^ 18:52:41 so you start multiple servers on one sbcl, with different dispatch tables 18:52:44 but I think not 18:52:56 esden: can allegro's own IDE do it? 18:53:00 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:02 esden: Allegro supports all kind of tracing. 18:53:15 tcr: so it is theoretically possible 18:53:23 rsynnott: never used the IDE 18:53:45 tcr: on linux, for example. Probably non-darwin x86oids at least. (trace :function #'local-function :encapsulate nil) 18:54:03 up untill I came here all they were using was repl on the console ... that was it 18:54:07 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A25BA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 18:54:33 esden: use C-u C-c C-t on the (flet ((foo ...)) 18:55:13 pkhuong: Is there some way to test for that support programmatically? 18:55:35 tcr: not sure. 18:57:43 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:41 kidd [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:52 Good evening. 18:59:56 evenin' 19:00:22 tcr: nope "'create-bottle' is not fbound" :( 19:01:15 esden: where is here? 19:01:21 that sounds fairly horrific 19:01:25 (only repl on console) 19:02:14 esden: There's definitively code for tracing local functions in acl's swank backend. Sure you used the prefix-arg, i.e. C-u ? 19:02:24 rsynnott: at the chair i am working for ... the people did not know of slime ... and were using jedit 19:03:02 -!- Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:03:53 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:04:03 errm ... i have no such binding as it seems ... I tried to use M-x slime-toggle-trace-fdefinition 19:04:12 but it seems that it is the wrong one ^^ 19:04:27 wedgeV_ [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 19:04:37 Update your checkout 19:04:43 ay 19:05:03 elurin [n=user@78.166.101.138] has joined #lisp 19:05:08 ohh apropos ... where is the git clone of the repository? 19:05:24 cesco_ [n=tfb@81-64-212-95.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 19:06:49 Bah, sbcl-1.0.23 still doesn't compile with sun as ! 19:07:37 cesco_: i don't think it ever did. Why is that a problem? 19:08:51 Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:09:02 Hun` [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:09:23 Lisp food: http://ntccrt.sourceforge.net/ 19:09:38 It has in the past. It's just annoying because all the gccs on my clean machine at work use Sun's as. 19:10:37 Fairly certain it used gas back on the old sparc. 19:12:30 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:13:52 -!- sctb [n=sctb@mail.arcurve.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:14:53 I'm pretty certain I built 0.7.something or an early 0.8 on a gcc+Sun toolchain 19:15:28 cesco_: sure, it uses sun ld. 19:15:56 Hiya cesco_. 19:16:04 lispm_, more of that -> http://picasaweb.google.com/jenni.helmersson/LispKalas#5076262748434672834 19:16:13 Anyhow, it just means I need to compile a new gcc or wait on my Solaris 9 container to be ready :-P 19:16:18 Hi chandler 19:16:25 sctb [n=sctb@mail.arcurve.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:43 tasty! 19:16:57 pkhuong: I used to be able to compile SBCL with either gas or Sun as, provided that your gcc was consistent with that. 19:17:08 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 19:17:09 lispm_, I think it was, she's a good cook. :-) 19:17:11 pkhuong: But I don't have a Solaris SPARC build host at all anymore. 19:17:34 cruel, I get hungry! 19:17:41 cesco_: I think we switched the sparc box to fbsd when we got fed up with building gcc (the binary package emitted *wrong* FP code :|) 19:17:47 *tic* dcc some cheese over to lispm. 19:19:35 pkhuong: I pretty much only use gcc for compiling SBCL; otherwise I use Forte. 19:19:49 pkhuong: but for FP code, I use SBCL ;-) 19:20:09 lexclose [n=wmarvel@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:12 tcr: ok ... it works! thanks 19:20:25 -!- willb2 [n=wibenton@wireless34.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:20:50 -!- ltbarcly_ is now known as ltbarcly 19:20:55 -!- te_ [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-d23db6229359a2df] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:13 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:21:30 chandler: The upshot is most likely we'll have 1.0.24 binaries for Solaris 9/10 19:21:42 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has joined #lisp 19:21:53 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-212.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 19:21:58 cesco_: Great! 19:22:10 I have been too busy to kick off my 1.0.23 builds - hopefully this weekend I will start that. 19:22:38 tcr: is there a way to use presentations in the traces? ^^ 19:22:52 Yeah, feel you -- I launched mine at 8pm tonight 19:23:37 te_ [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-a8524d455c277e50] has joined #lisp 19:26:08 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:26:28 esden: how do you mean? 19:27:05 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:18 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["brb"] 19:27:46 I had C-t mapped to C-x ... (just removed it again) ... but I tried C-u M-x slime-toggle-trace-fdefinition and I could trace the local function 19:27:52 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.5] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:28:31 still learning .. did not know about the C-u prefix ^^ 19:28:33 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 19:29:05 I only use emacs since I started using lisp ... so it is not such a long time ... (feels ashamed somehow) 19:31:24 esden: To use presentations in the trace output, you have to look up whether you can customize the printing in allegro's trace 19:32:17 Are there any 3D graphics (OpenGL or whatever competing thing microsoft surely has) libraries for CL? I don't think so, but just curious... 19:32:40 minion: cl-opengl 19:32:41 cl-opengl: cl-opengl is a set of CFFI bindings to the OpenGL, GLU and GLUT APIs. http://www.cliki.net/cl-opengl 19:32:49 there's been a succession of them, in fact. 19:33:26 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a1c68ed8904fcb6a] has joined #lisp 19:33:37 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-149-177.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:39 there are also SDL things 19:33:48 which provide some sort of opengl interface, I think 19:34:08 (and if you were masochistic, you could no doubt use directx through FFI on windows :) ) 19:34:24 or even through .NET via edi weitz's .NET thingy 19:34:53 cl-sdl has its own (perfectly good) opengl bindings, but cl-sdl is deprecated in favor of lispbuilder-sdl, with which you would just use cl-opengl 19:35:07 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-58-91-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 19:38:43 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:42:35 hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has joined #lisp 19:42:47 OT: I need to take a pdf, and remove these 2inch margins on the pdf. I'm using pdfcrop, it's slow as heck. What channel shoudl I be asking in? What man page should I be reading? (this is remotely on topic since i'm running this on pg's onlisp.pdf) 19:43:14 -!- Hun` [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 19:44:02 schme: fred is horrible. 19:44:23 sabetts: you should be promoting your editor 19:44:30 how's wilma :P 19:44:46 FRED's a Retarded Emacs Degenerate 19:45:01 hefner: it's resting right now 19:46:03 hefner: i have plans to ressurrect it at some point but I just have too much stuff on my plate and an emacs is a HUGE undertaking 19:46:08 cool, thanks 19:46:19 (re OpenGL) 19:46:23 -!- cesco_ [n=tfb@81-64-212-95.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [] 19:46:29 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:47:21 I think there's room in the world for a simple editor substrate that can edit lisp code without too many higher ambitions 19:47:46 because there is no higher ambition? 19:47:50 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212085113.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:47:57 hehe 19:48:18 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:48:21 no, so that it will actually work. 19:48:49 Hmm - is having a bot sit on #lisp and do nothing verboten at the moment? 19:49:11 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.88.5] has joined #lisp 19:49:11 (versus climacs, which is the mozilla 0.7 of text editors) 19:49:30 lexclose: What's its point? 19:49:54 if you just want logs, aren't the logs kept up to date? 19:50:13 catching bugs, actually 19:50:28 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF392.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:50:32 I don't care about logs, I just needed traffic. :) 19:50:43 play in the road, then 19:50:58 frogger, the big edition 19:51:01 I've been running a wmbot in here for something like 4 years, I think the rules changed on me because chandler banned it last month ;) 19:51:06 maybe five years 19:52:54 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:54:01 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 19:56:19 it was all hunky-dory when I first set it up - so I apologize if I did anything wrong here - it was completely unintentional (and it was actually banned for *not* talking - it's never done more than ping timeout) 19:57:40 it need to be taught pong! 19:58:12 Kopophex [n=kopophex@dtp-1.dyn.cs.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 20:01:30 jstracke [n=jstracke@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:37 it knows pong, or it would die roughly every 5 minutes :) 20:02:50 -!- hml [n=x@unaffiliated/hml] has quit ["leaving"] 20:03:43 ths [n=ths@X4607.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 20:03:44 it would generally ping timeout when someone did something in here that hit a weird corner case - and I'd come home to a lisp sitting in the debugger. 20:04:03 Ah. 20:04:14 -!- sctb [n=sctb@mail.arcurve.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:04:26 which is really the entire reason I had it /join here 20:04:32 sabetts: Yes. I saw your comment on emacswiki about fred :) 20:04:41 sounds like characteristically robust lisp software. 20:04:56 (oh no, a funny character! I'll throw an error!) 20:05:39 it was a stream decoding thing - I had it running in a not-nice character set. 20:05:46 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@182.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 20:06:03 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:06:22 basically, I went latin-1 and it never happened again :) 20:07:19 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.88.5] has quit [] 20:08:37 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 20:09:41 schme: heh, i left a comment? 20:10:20 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-182-149-177.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:11:10 sabetts: "Having used MCL and FRED I have to say FRED really stands for FRED Requires Extensive Debugging. The keybindings are also garbage and its attempt to be compatible with mac bindings just makes things worse. --sabetts" 20:11:14 ;) 20:11:25 schme: ya i just read that. 20:11:47 What a waste of paste :( 20:12:04 the tooth variety? 20:12:14 those bits are gone forever. just move on. 20:12:27 schme: nonsense, for you have entertained us all 20:13:23 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o chandler 20:13:31 sykopomp pasted "undo doesn't work?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71653 20:13:40 *sykopomp* shrugs 20:13:40 -!- chandler has set mode -b *!n=wmbot@* 20:13:46 -!- chandler has set mode -o chandler 20:14:04 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:09 any ideas? I got it working as a single-variable thing, but I'm trying to get the closure-undo to work with a stack... 20:14:16 good afternoon 20:14:41 tcr: Ok I will check if I can customize the trace output. Again thanks 20:15:22 esden: You can on SBCL. You can then use the ~/swank::p/ stuff I showed in my presentation. 20:15:33 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.88.5] has joined #lisp 20:15:47 esden: I'll go out having dinner now, I'll try to publish the presentation before I go to bed later tonight. 20:15:49 <_3b> fusss: doubled speed of my list traversal benchmark again :) 20:16:01 woah 20:16:21 tcr: good ... so I wait for the presentation to check on the ~/swank::p/ stuff 20:16:41 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.87.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:00 what did you change? _3b 20:17:20 esden: http://paste.lisp.org/display/67533 20:17:22 <_3b> fusss: specifying the type before accessing the car/cdr slots 20:17:40 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 20:18:38 _3b: specifiying the type in the lisp source? 20:18:53 tcr: ahh ok 20:19:40 <_3b> fusss: adding a :coerce op, they are implemented partially in asm currently 20:20:57 yeah, that is good. you will end up implementing a more thorough type inference at some point 20:20:59 sabetts: I've been thinking about bringing Fred back to Clozure CL. I guess I won't send you an invitation to the "Return of Fred" party. ;-) 20:21:19 <_3b> fusss: yeah, should be able to get that automatically eventually 20:21:36 sctb [n=sctb@mail.arcurve.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:49 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.88.5] has quit [] 20:21:49 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.152.111] has joined #lisp 20:22:15 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 20:22:28 if you don't want run-time type checks, you can cheat like in Self 20:23:11 rme: heh. maybe it would be awesome if people used it and fixed it. I'm spoiled by gnu emacs so I found fred severely lacking. 20:23:11 basically you build the binary with profiling information that gathers the most frequent types of a variable use 20:23:21 so, can anyone spot why that closure isn't working? 20:23:44 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:46 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:02 rme: like only having 1 level of undo and M-g bound to previous input. gah! that bit me *every* time I used fred. 20:24:09 after "sufficient" testing, you generate a delivery version of the binary with the profiling stripped, only this time, each variable has its most frequent type as the first case (default) 20:24:53 <_3b> fusss: not sure if that would help, since the vm is going to do type checks anyway 20:24:55 but you still need to think out a full fledged IR format that can accomodate a type checker, a profiler, and a code optimizer. lotsa data gathering. 20:25:34 it's not for the "primitive" machines types, more like CLOS classes, structs and other lisp types 20:25:55 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:25:55 <_3b> true, might help with method dispatch 20:26:23 *_3b* is curious how well throw/catch would handle multimethod dispatch 20:26:34 there are some profound thoughts on Lisp design in the Dylan rationales 20:27:14 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/others/dylan/doc/design/ 20:27:46 <_3b> added to my reading list 20:27:50 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has joined #lisp 20:27:52 sykopomp: it's working fine. Problem is that you put (incf x) before (push x...), so the value you popped was the same 4. 20:27:54 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:28:00 right 20:28:14 I was about to write that, too 20:29:27 jstracke: doh! 20:29:34 jstracke: thanks for pointing that out :) 20:30:03 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:30:34 _3b: i wouldn't put past Adobe to release an SDK for desktop application development, complete with a native compiler 20:30:49 so you might want to start thinking ahead 20:31:21 *_3b* would use a real lisp for native compilation 20:31:36 <_3b> (unless they targetted arm, but don't expect that any time soon) 20:31:43 sykopomp: usually DEFUN is not used inside LETs 20:32:00 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-212.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:32:05 it does not create local functions, like DEFINE in Scheme 20:32:17 patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:19 no, i would say it will be flash still, but for standalone app development, and the only way to use the flash libraries is via flash FFI. 20:32:32 lispm_: Yeah, but I'm used to throwing defuns inside LETs. I should just lambda it. :) 20:33:44 see that DEFUN often expands into some code with EVAL-WHEN 20:34:01 EVAL-WHEN won't run when not at top-level 20:34:10 -!- waldofll [n=waldofll@12.150.195.83] has quit [] 20:34:20 _3b: the way monopolies work in software is that you control the "platform"; they will make sure the platform remains AVM2, even if you have a Quad Zeotheon III 10GHz processor underneath. Sun baited the world with easy creation of applets and then created a platform. Adobe wants to do the same, i think. 20:35:06 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.88.5] has joined #lisp 20:35:12 doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 20:35:50 -!- rread [n=rread@c-76-102-10-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:35:54 even if they don't want. business and scientific communities are already "misusing" flash for real development. adobe would have no choice but to play catch up and improve the damn thing. moving away from portable vector graphics to "platform" :-) 20:36:00 rread [n=rread@c-76-102-10-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:59 does anyone know where are the archives of the CL standardization process? 20:39:20 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 20:40:39 doesn't cltl2 cover that? 20:40:45 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs.cmu.edu/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/doc/standard/ansi/ 20:40:46 or part of it? 20:40:46 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:42:42 thanks lispm_. as always :-) 20:44:20 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:44:20 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:44:22 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-213-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:54 willb [n=wibenton@wireless34.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:51:46 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 20:52:55 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 20:53:18 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 20:53:38 -!- elurin [n=user@78.166.101.138] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:55:21 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:57:30 tomas` [n=user@c-5ce3e055.31-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:58:25 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.88.5] has quit [] 20:59:40 -!- baetis-fly [n=baetis-f@pool-96-245-219-99.phlapa.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["leaving"] 21:00:12 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 21:00:48 cool 21:01:21 i got my software to build to a binary with ecl :) 2.2MB 21:01:41 completely standalone, or separate ecl shared library? 21:02:48 i gave it a :monolithic t which as far as i understand it links statically 21:03:09 it only reports loading of sockets.fas from the ecl-distribution 21:03:29 Hun: heh! i'm just going through "Wade Common Lisp" paper. an sparc shared-library implementation of CL :-) 21:03:38 cool :) 21:03:58 and slime bugs badly with ecl. i'll see if i can look at it later this weekend 21:04:43 after doing a asdf:load-op, it breaks on just about every communication into an error: WITH-UNIQUE-NAMES is not of type CONS. 21:04:58 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 21:05:00 sometimes that happens in a loop which makes me kill emacs. i'll look at that later 21:05:14 gotta go 21:05:18 I don't really see how, but if foo would be a function that returns multiple values, then would there be a way to define the function bar, so it fetches the multiple values when used as (bar (foo)), or would I have to use a macro for that? 21:05:49 m-v-b / m-v-c? 21:06:54 tic: may bar do something like (defun bar (arg) (multiple-value-bind (a b) arg)) 21:07:21 madnificent: no, by the time you receive a value, it is *a* value. 21:07:38 pkhuong: yes, that was what I thought. So a macro is nessary, right? 21:07:53 PanGoat [n=PanGoat@node2.sensoryresearch.net] has joined #lisp 21:08:00 yes, or you can make it explicit, with a m-v-call. 21:08:21 pkhuong: due to the way I want to be able to use it, that is not an option, but thanks :) 21:10:35 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-165-14.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:10:58 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:12:13 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:12:27 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:10 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:15:15 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:49 elderK [n=elderK@203-167-171-44.dialup.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 21:18:13 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:18:19 ronen [n=ronen@87.69.67.210] has joined #lisp 21:18:42 -!- ronen [n=ronen@87.69.67.210] has quit [Client Quit] 21:18:44 -!- wedgeV_ [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 21:20:03 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-165-14.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 21:20:17 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:21:20 lispm [n=joswig@f054052065.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:21:47 typespecifier (and symbolp (satisfies fboundp)) , are the parts checked from left to right? 21:22:04 any order, or all? 21:22:15 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 21:22:30 lispm: any order. 21:23:10 really? arghhhh! do you have a pointer to the spec? 21:23:50 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203.97.217.154] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:24:34 banisterfiend [n=john@203.97.217.154] has joined #lisp 21:25:28 -!- elderK [n=elderK@203-167-171-44.dialup.clear.net.nz] has quit [] 21:25:37 in CltL2 it says 'When typep processes an and type specifier, it always tests each of the component types in order from left to right...' 21:25:50 haven't found the equivalent in ANSI CL 21:26:48 lispm: yeah, I was thinking of another situation. Not sure, actually, and I can't find anything supporting either interpretation. 21:27:30 OTOH, since the predicates are supposed to be pure (or at least not used for side-effects), relying on evaluation order seems questionable. 21:27:31 if there is nothing like that in ANSI CL, then your interpretation would right 21:27:44 -!- lispm_ [n=joswig@e177123138.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:27:51 but CLtL2 talks about 'filtering' 21:28:22 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:28:38 'is to allow a satisfies type specifier to depend on filtering by previous type specifiers' 21:33:37 esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:33:51 I think the order related behaviour has been removed in ANSI CL 21:34:15 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203.97.217.154] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:34:46 banisterfiend [n=john@203.97.217.154] has joined #lisp 21:34:52 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:35:56 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:16 -!- ksergio [n=sgarcia@mail.nuecho.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:41:20 _3b: here is a neat bit of history i just found 21:41:22 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/oop/non_clos/corbit/0.html 21:42:04 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16AD65.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:44:40 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:47:13 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:47:37 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:34 -!- hothoofs [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:52:41 there are lots of 'class-less' object systems for Lisp 21:53:05 I have used for example Object Lisp, which was running in an early version of MCL 21:53:12 that was quite nice 21:53:39 Object Lisp came from LMI, afaik 21:54:53 p://www.mactech.com:16080/articles/mactech/Vol.06/06.08/PearlLisp/index.html 21:54:58 http://www.mactech.com:16080/articles/mactech/Vol.06/06.08/PearlLisp/index.html 21:56:32 lispm: that's good to know. just looking for ways to efficiently implement clos on top of a prototype based system. 21:56:50 nozzzz [n=nozzzzzz@p4239-ipbf1008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:57:18 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:58:54 of course, then the example in CLHS doesn't work so well: (and integer (satisfies evenp)) 21:59:08 foom, ah 21:59:15 fusss: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/afs/cs/project/ai-repository/ai/lang/lisp/oop/clos/kee/0.html 21:59:38 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-213-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:51 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-213-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:16 not to say that an example means the spec requires ordering 22:00:25 but still, one might expect that to work. :) 22:00:36 foom, where is the example? 22:00:43 http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/t_satisf.htm 22:01:21 -!- nozzzz [n=nozzzzzz@p4239-ipbf1008marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:01:28 -!- te_ [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-a8524d455c277e50] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:01:37 ah, thanks! 22:03:03 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:04:49 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-213-203.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:06:13 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:06:27 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:10 te [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-9347f02f758352cf] has joined #lisp 22:08:31 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:08:41 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:08:56 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 22:12:36 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:14:42 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:14:53 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:49 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:17:32 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:18:02 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:18:06 pragma_ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 22:21:25 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:37 luis__ [n=luis@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 22:23:05 -!- luis [n=luis@r42.eu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:23:49 besides the unification, the substraction and the overlap, what else would be needed to work with sequences? 22:24:04 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:26:30 I've updated the code, so it doesn't use CLOS anymore, but I want to see if I'm missing anything ^_^ 22:27:55 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has left #lisp 22:28:59 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:30:16 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:30:30 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:31:35 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:34:48 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:36:03 H4ns: are you here? 22:37:28 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 22:39:33 -!- tomas` [n=user@c-5ce3e055.31-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:55 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 22:42:51 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 22:43:03 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:11 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-19-17.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:31 tcr: barely 22:45:31 H4ns: Can you upload files to a blog at blogspot.com? 22:48:09 tcr: never tried that, sorry 22:48:16 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 22:49:35 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:53:30 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:54:58 I have the following symbols for the sequence-system: seq (to make new sequences), s+ (union), s- (substraction), s/ (overlap). Are they understandable? or does s/ shout negation too much (which would make it unuseable for the overlap)? 22:57:32 Hun: If you wanna come to munich doing some hack session, I'd be interested. And I think esden, too. 22:57:46 FULL ACK! :) 22:58:24 *slyrus_* transposed the last two letters of each of those words for some reason 23:00:01 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.152.111] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:00:44 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:00:58 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@5ad6b9b4.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 23:07:11 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 23:14:07 My SLIME presentation can be found at: http://trittweiler.blogspot.com/ 23:14:31 perfect thanks tcr!!! 23:14:32 ro0tslinky [i=HydraIRC@29.245.100.97.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:15:03 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:22 thanks tcr! 23:20:13 -!- ro0tslinky [i=HydraIRC@29.245.100.97.cfl.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 23:20:13 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:51 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209.6.216.149] has quit [] 23:21:53 ro0tslinky [i=HydraIRC@97.100.245.29] has joined #lisp 23:22:47 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:23:42 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:35 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:27:13 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 23:27:34 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:31:25 tcr: I wish I could have come but I had an exam today... :) 23:32:37 It's pretty much all included in the presentation 23:32:54 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless34.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:33:10 I look forward to reading that ^^ 23:33:42 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:34:42 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:34:54 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:19 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:37:45 -!- ro0tslinky [i=HydraIRC@97.100.245.29] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Po-ta-to, boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew."] 23:38:22 what is madnificent hacking on? 23:38:42 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:40:17 -!- phao [n=phao@189.13.131.116] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:41:07 tcr: read it, interesting! 23:42:01 hefner: I was building a little sequence-library. In two days, two people asked, and one claimed it to be hard to write (which it was clearly not), so I went on and wrote one 23:42:21 what's a sequence-library do? 23:42:25 but I'm not sure if the names I gave it are meaningfull enough :) 23:42:41 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 23:43:14 hefner: nothing usefull, some languages have a syntax like [1..10] to specify sequences 23:43:49 hefner: I've built (seq -5 5) (etc), and some standard combinations that might be handy 23:44:06 it's not something many people will use, I guess 23:44:08 do they construct a list/vector, or implement an (extensible) sequence? 23:44:18 (or do something else, like series) 23:44:20 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:44:47 hefner: sec, I'll paste the code. It weighs in at 70 lines 23:45:18 and it remembers the rules in closures now, calculates when requested. 23:46:21 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-165-14.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:46:26 madnificent annotated #71646 with "CL Simple Sequence" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71646#1 23:47:44 hefner: useage: (listify (s/ (s+ (seq -10 10) (seq 100 200)) (s+ (seq 1 5) (seq 195 2000)))) 23:48:00 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:48:09 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:48:41 C-c C-k really ought to work in slime-scratch. Maybe I'm missing something. 23:51:23 the code, as pasted, doesn't work :) 23:51:48 hefner: what doesn't it do? 23:52:05 woops 23:52:59 Is there something like subseq that lets you look at part of a number? 23:53:38 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:53:38 There is no standard way to break a number into parts. 23:53:41 hefner: there's no file to compile-file. There would have to be a special wrapper for *slime-scratch*. 23:53:50 kzar: ldb? 23:53:53 You could do it by bits, or bigits, or prime factors. 23:54:38 Hmm OK thanks, that gives me somewhere to start from 23:54:49 madnificent annotated #71646 with "woops" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71646#2 23:55:23 pkhuong: surely it is within the glorious power of emacs to bind the key to something which gives the desired effect in that buffer, if nothing else 23:55:49 hefner: i'm just a user. 23:55:55 hey, me too. 23:56:43 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 23:56:51 madnificent: instead of listify, would it not make more sense to either "enumerate" or a function to create an iterator over the sequence? 23:56:52 ggbbgg [n=russd@willers.employees.org] has joined #lisp 23:57:01 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has left #lisp 23:57:03 then you could build listify as a utility 23:57:42 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:58:26 hefner: I could do that, but the equivalent of listify is used internally too (to combine sequences) 23:58:32 -!- sctb [n=sctb@mail.arcurve.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:59:01 oh, so it is. 23:59:08 since lists are so common, I assumed users to like prefer that (but now I think that was a bad idea) 23:59:13 that's good, you could fix that in the process. :) 23:59:31 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.155.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:59:46 george__ [n=george@189.107.155.1] has joined #lisp