00:00:29 rsynnott: at my old workplace, x86 was not really considered when buying hw 00:01:45 p_l: what did they do? 00:01:50 lukego: what is this futuristic space-lisp? =p 00:01:58 very few people who can afford to ignore x86 at this point 00:02:36 rsynnott: Mobile Phone operator 00:03:15 x86 was rare (except for some integrated solutions, where you bought a complete box) 00:03:35 ah, sparcs, then? 00:03:43 rsynnott: Mostly 00:03:47 the telecoms people have always been very keen on sparcs 00:04:01 rsynnott: All thanks to Compaq having idiots on board 00:04:13 (or being paid by intel...) 00:04:34 Erlang video: "But this is no ordinary telephone exchange; it's connected to this Sun workstation!..." 00:04:59 (cue ten minutes of unintentionally absurd phone calls and messing around in emacs) 00:05:24 when I was working there, we were in progress of migration to new billing system, from one running on Tru64 to AIX 00:06:44 ugh 00:07:56 I think there were few Linux (mostly complete boxes like load balancers and SSL accelerators) and few FreeBSD (webservers) installations. The rest was either Solaris 10 or AIX 00:08:56 rsynnott: "Hello Joe" ..."And Hello Mike" 00:09:21 that one, yep 00:10:22 Anyway, I'd gladly go back to working there. 00:11:00 *kleppari* works for MS fanatics 00:11:24 kleppari: Right now I'd go for any IT job that isn't call center 00:11:52 how do you define call center? 00:11:55 p_l: what are you doing now? 00:11:57 Sometimes I have to answer the phone :P 00:12:21 *rsynnott* doesn't answer phones, but occasionally does answer the door 00:12:58 (generally shutting it again quickly; our office was a brothel a few years back, so we still get a steady stream of scary old men who saw it on the internet) 00:13:10 4hahahah 00:13:44 rsynnott: I am a CS student (1st year), who is theoretically employed as "Food&Beverage Assistant". Haven't seen a penny this way, though 00:17:11 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:18:20 kleppari: What do you mean by MS fanatics? 00:19:24 COM+ fetishists? 00:21:13 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 00:21:27 or simply MS platform fans? 00:21:47 not fans, fanatics :P 00:21:52 well, at least some of them 00:22:50 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-044-155.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:52 I'd like to see my university network either go for proper Unix-based network or Windows Server one, not that abomination that doesn't work anymore 00:23:23 This person, perhaps: "I love COM. COM is good. Like a fine pilsner or ale, COM never disappoints. In fact, the more I look at COM, the more I like it." 00:23:39 (from a reall MSDN article, via http://www.ddj.com/architect/184404757) 00:24:01 COM makes me feel sick 00:24:16 it could be worse... 00:24:29 sure, both of your legs could be broken instead of just the one.. 00:24:47 it doesn't make it OK :P 00:25:19 navision, dynamics crm, the lot 00:25:21 it's all crap 00:25:50 some of the server stuff has started to become better, though 00:26:28 -!- esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Get MacIrssi - http://www.sysctl.co.uk/projects/macirssi/"] 00:26:47 what is that dynamic nav thing? 00:26:56 accounting stuff 00:27:04 the website is surprisingly unhelpful on the topic; it seems to assume you know what it is already 00:27:05 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:27:08 ah :) 00:27:11 I only use it to bill customers, ~10 minutes per day 00:27:16 kleppari: Interesting thing is that both Windows 2003 and Windows 2008 are often proposed as replacements if you want really good installation of windows 00:27:34 p_l: replacements for what? 00:28:00 makes some sense; winp for AMD64 is actually win2003 00:28:04 *winxp 00:28:21 *rsynnott* is personally quite happy to go without on the windows front 00:28:28 (I do have it in a vm for testing stuff) 00:28:45 i've made my winxp workstation(?!?!) somewhat usable 00:28:50 cygwin and virtual desktops 00:28:50 kleppari: In the sense that "if you are going to use windows anyway, use this, it has less crap" 00:28:51 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:28:56 p_l: yeah 00:29:04 I actually like 2003 in some ways 00:29:21 and actually Windows 2008 is much faster than Vista, while having nearly all of the features (including the bling) 00:29:29 I haven't tried 2008 00:29:50 If i'm beta testing software, i'd like to be told beforehand 00:29:55 so I wait 2-3 years :) 00:31:15 From what I heard, the difference in code is nil - but some of the additional components are new (HyperVM) 00:31:40 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-69-234-67-43.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:31:43 i'd rather take xen or solaris zones.. 00:32:43 I'd take zones, I'm not sure if I want to play with Xen 00:33:17 well, it's quick 00:33:32 I don't care for the interface very much, and it has some quirks 00:33:47 like not working very well with vlans 00:33:51 that was a fun night 00:34:36 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 00:34:56 speaking of which, do you know if there are any serious obstacles to building a 64-bit sbcl on Solaris? 00:35:31 kleppari: Haven't tried it - I keep a Solaris install running on my old laptop, but it's only for few things 00:35:57 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-061-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:02 the moment I get rid of the project that requires it, I'm killing it and setting a new one with full SXCE install 00:37:33 kleppari: there is no code, especially assembly code. 00:38:00 pkhuong: ah, ok 00:38:48 pkhuong: Do you mean for SPARC or amd64? 00:39:08 p_l: oh, right I still think SPARC when I see Solaris. 00:39:08 I meant amd64, sorry if I wasn't clear 00:39:26 -!- sctb [n=sctb@mail.arcurve.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 00:41:01 "there is no code" - philosophy? metaphysics? 00:41:16 -!- _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:41:21 _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 00:44:58 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:46:03 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 00:46:18 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:07 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:50 yhara_ [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has joined #lisp 00:54:50 -!- yhara_ [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 00:55:12 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:57:27 I heard that Solaris is getting another arch somewhere along 11 or 12 00:58:14 bougyman [i=bougyman@bougyman.com] has joined #lisp 00:59:24 *Balooga* scratchs his head, trying to write a mudballs define-system. 01:01:41 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C339.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:03:38 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [No route to host] 01:06:58 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:08:12 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:09:08 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1CB09.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:18:33 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-57-222.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:21:24 -!- kli [n=kli@c-71-236-28-58.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:23:26 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:23:26 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:23:45 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 01:29:59 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 01:32:24 ok what's the batteries included equivalent in common lisp? 01:33:06 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:33:15 as in what libraries should you use? 01:33:32 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:33:52 at this point, probably either Edi Weitz's pack or clbuild 01:34:31 as in, how do i push a button and not have to worry about finding bindings for libreadline or opengl or $(other-standardish-package) 01:36:02 clbuild or asdf-install, probably 01:36:21 *rsynnott* hides, after naming the Forbidden Package 01:36:50 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-66-99.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:38:11 lol 01:38:27 why asdf-install should be 'Forbidden Package'? 01:39:10 single point of failure that fails every year. 01:40:42 regular as clockwork 01:41:27 someone should be nominated to pay it next time round, while it still clear in everyones' memories 01:41:42 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:41:42 I'll drive. 01:43:49 -!- phao_ [n=phao@201.58.179.178] has quit [Client Quit] 01:44:38 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:37 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:45:56 ths_ [n=ths@X46d5.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:46:03 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 01:48:36 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.62] has joined #lisp 01:49:17 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has joined #lisp 01:49:55 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.62] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:50:54 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.87.197] has joined #lisp 01:53:37 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 01:57:56 esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 01:58:13 -!- ths [n=ths@X4d9d.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:59:28 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.36] has joined #lisp 02:15:02 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:31 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:15:33 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 02:15:51 fooquux [n=fooquux@dhcp-128-171-68-114.moore.manoa.hawaii.edu] has joined #lisp 02:16:06 -!- fooquux [n=fooquux@dhcp-128-171-68-114.moore.manoa.hawaii.edu] has left #lisp 02:17:39 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 02:19:36 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:20:56 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:23:21 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-69-234-67-43.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [] 02:23:23 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:26:20 segv [n=mb@p4FC1E63C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:58 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has joined #lisp 02:33:05 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:37:09 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:37:29 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has joined #lisp 02:37:49 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:43:37 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:45:18 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:47:58 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a60723e581cdff18] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:48:58 -!- mbac_ [n=mbac@vc69.vc.panix.com] has quit ["leaving"] 02:52:35 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 02:53:16 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:58 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:57:09 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 02:57:27 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:57:40 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:59:29 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0D3DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:33 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:03:26 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:15 Are there any known web applications using weblocks "in anger", as they say? I'd like to see some bigger examples (and maybe some info on deployments)? Something that isn't a blog :) 03:10:55 there's probably a reddit clone 03:11:17 -!- EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.2 Shiny http://www.kvirc.net/"] 03:16:25 qbg [n=quickbas@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 03:17:31 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:17:38 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:24 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:31 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0FA21.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:27:07 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:31:47 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:19 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:15 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-229.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 03:35:37 p_l: i forked weblocks over a year ago and my startup's going to launch probably in jan. 03:35:59 persi: What kind of stuff you do on weblocks? 03:37:18 developed it into a much better framework, imho. added a constraint based layout engin and many more widgets. working on several applications. rss. email. calendar. etc. 03:37:23 games. 03:37:30 engin/engine 03:38:18 never heardh the phrase "in anger" though. asian? 03:38:29 persi: Nope, European 03:38:44 and the phrase seems to be mostly used in US 03:39:02 i'm in the US. 03:39:12 never heard of such a thing, either 03:39:38 it's taken from "using a weapon in anger", meaning the use of weaponry for real fight, instead of evaluation/practice 03:39:50 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has joined #lisp 03:39:52 Is there a place I can look to understand how this environment variable is used in various contexts? 03:40:04 ahh, i see. but your right, there are no public weblocks demos of any size. 03:40:39 persi: The only thing bigger than the demos on the site seems to be a simple blog application. 03:41:13 I don't have much against blog applications, they are what helped me get into Rails, but none of the apps I then did were similar to blogs :D 03:41:27 (well, the first was a data entry thing, so it could be considered similar) 03:43:01 i'm pretty far from that code now, in that every day is less and less weblocks. but it was a brilliant start to bootstrap from. 03:43:26 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 03:43:59 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.36] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:44:10 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-9-152.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:44:53 -!- george_ [n=george@189.107.203.157] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:45:01 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:45:03 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:21 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.38] has joined #lisp 03:45:28 persi: Is it going to be released? 03:45:52 -!- lukego_ [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:46:00 lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has joined #lisp 03:46:33 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.38] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:48:01 p_l: i don't think so. :( at least not in the beginning. tightly coupled with the graph database we developed and that will not be released. some of the rendering stuff could be folded back into weblocks, but it breaks most of the weblocks philosphy. 03:49:17 p_l: but it's going to be a developer platform and you could definity build applications on top, but in our universe. 03:50:43 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 03:50:45 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-60-38.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:53:25 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:54:47 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:55:08 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:55:09 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:55:45 interesting 03:56:01 by developer platform you mean kind of "web app to make web apps" ? 03:58:09 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:00:55 p_l: yes. 04:01:19 p_l: but with AWS behind it so that it will scale. 04:01:44 persi: Interesting - any links (can be even "where to watch for" before launch)? 04:02:26 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless34.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:03:33 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-57-222.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:04:07 p_l: kloudshare. 04:04:27 p_l: semi stealth at this point. 04:04:48 persi: thanks 04:05:38 though I guess I won't be a client ;-) (for financial reasons) 04:05:40 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 04:06:46 p_l: i'm hoping to allow anyone to develop free applications. 04:07:23 p_l: but maybe not free closed source applications. 04:08:57 persi: Interesting thought. However, I'm currently looking mostly for a way to make a living out of IT, so it doesn't really apply (it's hard to start with a budget of 0) 04:09:56 p_l: i'd hope that our ecosystem would allow for someone to make a killer app and profit without needing to have paid to develop. 04:12:24 persi: That's a good thing to go for. 04:14:16 p_l: thanks. 04:14:52 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:16:04 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:16:31 I have one project idea laying not used, but it would take some time to develop and make it work. Not to mention that it would be hard to get the market (a rather niche one) 04:18:52 and while targeted clients may have the money, it's hard to check if they would be willing to pay enough to keep it afloat (not to mention that depending on features, it could need a fairly heavy-duty system) 04:20:13 -!- qbg [n=quickbas@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 04:20:20 p_l: dunno. i'm trying to tighten the feedback loop so that I and friends are doing a small project a day or week. will see. 04:21:10 no big projects. lots of smaller ones that fill direct needs. 04:22:08 my idea for the application included 3D route planning :) 04:22:27 *_3b* needs to work on that 'small finishable project' skill :p 04:22:55 *p_l* too 04:23:59 *sykopomp* needs a 'small finishable project'. 04:24:15 <_3b> doesn't help that i keep picking things that require libs not available in CL yet 04:24:45 _3b: most libs are 'small finaishable projects'. 04:25:15 <_3b> persi: libs like 'lisp to flash bytecode compiler' or '3d engine'? :) 04:26:05 <_3b> or even just subcomponents like 'optimized 3d math lib' or 'type inference' 04:26:16 _3b: ha. i'm working on flash right now. why go lisp to bytecode. why not just lisp to actoinscript to bytecode (using compiler like mtasc). 04:26:22 like 'gigantic generic mud engine with web interface, custom object system, elephant integration, language parser'? 04:26:24 :< 04:27:02 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:27:04 _3b: could just be as easy as converting parenscript over to actionscript. 04:27:14 <_3b> persi: having to shell out to a separate process souns annoying, learning compiler stuff is main reason though :) 04:27:21 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 04:27:47 sykopomp: fun stuff. 04:27:47 ... my one is quite simple compared to those, then. I only need a six degrees of freedom A* which takes a lot of variables into consideration... 04:27:50 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-75-58.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 04:27:58 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-60-38.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:28:02 <_3b> also more control of generated bytecode, possibility of using the alchemy stuff without generating C as well, that sort of thing 04:28:35 <_3b> p_l: a* shouldn't care about DOF, as long as you can generate neighbors and cost estimates :) 04:29:15 <_3b> p_l: though now that i think about it, i think i have considered similar problems... never got around to actually trying it though 04:29:20 -!- beach``` is now known as beach 04:29:30 _3b: i'm for 'getting it done' not in reinventing or possibly primature optimization. much more fun to get that app shipped and possible do something in the world and not just my own head. 04:29:35 _3b: When you have to include the direction you apply forces as well, it starts to get hairy 04:29:37 Good morning. 04:29:58 mornin' beach 04:30:09 <_3b> p_l: yeah, need some smarts somewhere to avoid a huge search space 04:30:19 _3b: Though spending a few weeks on it should reduce it to sensible space 04:30:34 after all, we do it by hand now 04:30:48 <_3b> persi: yeah, if it wasn't for learning too, i'd probably be taking a saner approach :) 04:31:09 _3b: ;) 04:31:39 <_3b> seems like there is some demand for lisp->flash stuff though, so maybe i'll get lucky and get some patches out of it :) 04:31:57 beach: do you think we'll ever have opengl widgets and sound support with (mc)clim? :D 04:31:57 _3b: have you actually made progress? 04:32:56 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:33:00 <_3b> persi: yeah, it compiles, and runs my test apps... in the middle of trying to figure out a saner way of extracting function/class definitions from the flash player standard libs, once that it is done i'll probably start trying to use it seriously 04:33:19 <_3b> it doesn't generate very good code, but good enough for low performance stuff 04:33:59 _3b: nice! hope to see it blossom. 04:34:34 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:46 _3b: i'm not so keen on flash, but integrating sound into my websites kinda needed. 04:36:14 Is there a place I can look to understand how this environment variable is used in various contexts? 04:36:17 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:51 <_3b> notsonerdysunny: you might start with a context in which your question makes sense 04:37:12 gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6fcb08397ae28cf4] has joined #lisp 04:39:18 _3b: I am a newbie to lisp .. I am trying to learn it .. what I have realized is unless I know what a concept means... I don't find a need for it .. 04:39:23 On the Lispers know everything theory: is there anyone here who groks double entry accounting and is willing to chat privately with me for a moment? 04:40:04 <_3b> notsonerdysunny: so you are specifically asking about the concept 'environment variable' and not a specific environment variable? 04:40:27 _3b: yea 04:41:35 <_3b> notsonerdysunny: not really a lisp topic, wikipedia seems to have a reasonable summary though 04:42:21 <_3b> (if you mean some lisp specific concept, can you provide more context of where you are seeing the term?) 04:44:01 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:08 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:46:11 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-9-152.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:50:47 gigamonkey: on a somewhat unrelated matter, I was reading through the lisp gardeners stuff and wanted to send some kudos your way 04:51:07 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:46 evening 04:51:49 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:53:51 sykopomp: kudos would be more in order if the garden wasn't all brown and withered. 04:54:00 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 04:54:02 evening slyrus_ 04:54:17 hey gigamonkey. howzit? 04:54:59 Goodish. I'm trying to grok accounting. Those people are teh suck at explaining their topic. 04:55:57 heh. a lispy interface to my quickbooks data would be great :) 04:56:17 gigamonkey: the accountants that I've met seem to not be able to understand it themselves, either. 04:57:18 gigamonkey: re gardeners: doesn't look terribly brown from the mailing list, and there's certainly been a lot of neat stuff done with the project I'm using now (lispbuilder). 04:58:18 sykopomp: well, glad it's looking green from where you're sitting. 04:58:53 not quite green, but I think it's pretty neat. I should look for some time to help out as I can, since I like the concept, and what y'all are doing. 05:00:20 More help is always better. There are still a lot of people on the list. The right project could potentially spark some of them into contributing. 05:00:28 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-60-38.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:01:18 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 05:01:48 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.10] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:06:51 does CL have quasi-quote like scheme? 05:07:22 I am pretty sure it does but my google-fu is failing hard and I am finding like CL projects for quasiquotations 05:07:22 <_3b> it has ` reader macro, but no specified implementation 05:07:32 ach so, that clears it up 05:07:39 thanks, _3b 05:07:44 Though someone has implemented a portable quasi-quote reader I think. 05:08:24 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:08:24 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has joined #lisp 05:08:45 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-178-25-42.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:09:25 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has quit [Client Quit] 05:10:47 dto: Here is another roguelike that uses Lisp. Used to use an early version of lispbuilder-sdl well, it seems. But he developer has since written his own bindings. http://code.google.com/p/skirmish/ 05:11:08 wrong window, oops. 05:12:15 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.38] has joined #lisp 05:12:29 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has joined #lisp 05:12:47 Balooga: wait, query me some of those links too! 05:12:58 Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:15:03 fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:11 vaskaren [n=hask@h49n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 05:15:14 -!- vaskaren [n=hask@h49n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 05:15:15 ManateeL` [n=user@222.212.143.196] has joined #lisp 05:15:16 -!- fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has left #lisp 05:15:35 -!- ManateeL` [n=user@222.212.143.196] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:16:08 ManateeL` [n=user@222.212.143.196] has joined #lisp 05:16:26 -!- ManateeL` [n=user@222.212.143.196] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:17:28 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:17:58 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 05:19:07 ManateeL` [n=user@222.212.143.196] has joined #lisp 05:19:15 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:20:31 -!- ManateeL` [n=user@222.212.143.196] has quit [Client Quit] 05:20:32 mikezor [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:22:48 appletizer [i=a@82-46-31-101.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 05:25:02 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a69-160.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:25:47 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a69-160.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:30:19 sykopomp: I have no idea. 05:31:19 beach: it would be pretty great ;) 05:31:41 minion: logs 05:31:41 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 05:32:18 *_3b* will probably at least attempt to mix mcclim and cl-opengl (+ either sdl or glfw) at some point 05:32:42 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 05:32:58 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35:00 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44B5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:10 I really should play around with mcclim sometime soon, it sounds wonderful 05:35:19 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:37:22 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.38] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:38:09 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:40:06 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has joined #lisp 05:40:28 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.252.68] has joined #lisp 05:40:56 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:41:35 sykopomp: You might want to revive the OpenGL backend for McCLIM. 05:43:06 beach: I may, once I'm more familiar with cl-opengl (or opengl in general). Is the backend available somewhere on the webternets? 05:43:30 I think it's in the CVS repository. 05:43:55 for mcclim? 05:44:05 yeah 05:44:17 great :) 05:44:36 Backends/OpenGL 05:44:37 I'm kind of being beaten upside the head with java right now, but I'll look into it. That's definitely a must-have. 05:45:49 beach: this shows my general naivitee regarding clim backends, but I'm not sure I need a whole opengl backend, I just want an opengl window in an otherwise clx backend-ed process. is that doable? 05:46:20 <_3b> slyrus_: i'd want clim inside the gl window :) 05:46:24 slyrus_: I would think it is. And I think it has been done. 05:46:39 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.42] has joined #lisp 05:46:47 -!- dmiles [i=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 05:47:01 <_3b> windows created with clx supposedly work with cl-opengl 05:47:26 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:48:15 it really would be nice to build an actual lisp community :( 05:48:27 not enough hackers == not enough finished neat things 05:51:48 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E44F3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:54:52 but too many hackers == not enough low hanging fruit :) 05:55:36 sykopomp: /me is part of the lisp community!! 05:55:37 there's too much low hanging fruit right now that needs too much time to implement 05:55:41 *dto* beams 05:55:51 you guys should join me in OS hacking and we create a new community of total weirdos who can't interact with normal humans :) 05:55:57 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.249.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:56:01 there's just so much that could really use a little bit of help to get cleaned up a bit, or maintained a bit 05:56:03 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:56:06 lukego: uh, I think we have that already, thanks. 05:56:30 giga: bah, take what we have and square it! ;-) 05:56:39 sykopomp: is it you who subscribed to watch one of my github things 05:56:50 dto: are you the CLON guy? 05:56:55 if so, yes 05:57:06 the clon guy :) yes 05:57:24 your subscription puts interest in CLON at an all-time high. 05:57:25 dto: I was thinking of doing something similar, but possibly basing it on CLOS instead 05:57:30 hahaha 05:57:46 I may end up just fussing around with CLON. Is there a reason why you didn't just MOP stuff up? 05:58:27 well, several reasons 05:58:38 I'd like to know them :D 05:58:46 not the least of which, is that it is ported from Emacs Lisp, where there was no MOP to work with. 05:58:48 dto: interesting. I have recently pushed Io onto very-interesting-things list 05:59:44 lukego: i might have, but CL has been on the top of my stack for a long time 05:59:59 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has quit ["quit"] 06:00:02 sykopomp: also, i wasn't sure if MOP could really make CLOS not be class-oriented. 06:00:26 sykopomp: also, it is designed for large groups of objects that are supposed to be easily serializable and portable 06:00:53 sykopomp: my experiences with CLOS and serialization didn't bode well, so i decided to just port Eon into CL 06:01:00 Eon was the old elisp object system i made into CLON 06:01:14 ah 06:01:40 my experience is kind of the opposite. I've used several options for persistence/serialization of CLOS objects, and would really want to have that in a prototype system 06:01:57 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has joined #lisp 06:02:01 yeah i can't claim to have researched it thoroughly 06:02:14 but i'm quite happy with clon and its application in my game engine 06:02:29 it definitely serves its purpose, and also has a neat message-queueing thing 06:02:37 I don't believe you can have CLOS not be class-oriented, but what I'm hoping to try is to have a system backed by unique classes (probably gensymed), and the classes would (should) be as flexible as a regular prototype system. 06:03:43 hmm. 06:03:49 I mean, what I want for the object system is to make a really dynamic object system available user-side, sort of what you'd get with MOOs (and it should be able to host MOOs, for that matter) 06:03:56 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:04:00 but I have no idea how to make method-editing available 06:04:05 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:04:07 hmm. i should have resewarched moos 06:04:23 MOOs are like MUDs, except they tend to be heavily building-oriented. 06:04:32 so players make their own rooms, script their own items, etc. 06:05:27 a big issue is that I want to avoid the awful mess that is keeping everything in files, and have everything living in dynamic-land + an elephant database 06:09:48 sykopomp: It sounds like you need a system that implements universal persitence. 06:10:05 beach: universal? 06:10:12 vs. just game-objects? 06:10:14 No files. 06:10:36 No distinction between main memory and disk. 06:10:37 exactly, no. Right now, I have a class-based system which uses bknr's datastore for persistence. 06:11:21 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 06:11:31 I was starting the process of porting stuff over to elephant (turns out I can't fit everything into memory... go figure), when I started playing around with something built with LPC and realized I could really use a prototype-like system for objects. 06:15:37 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:17:06 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 06:18:56 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:47 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has joined #lisp 06:25:07 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:35 good 1:25AM (morning? night?) 06:25:54 oh goodness. I've been at this for a while :( 06:25:58 I was hoping to sleep tonight, too. 06:27:09 debugging? sykopomp 06:27:40 writing JUnit unit-tests for homework 06:27:44 >:( 06:28:11 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-19-17.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:26 hahaha 06:28:48 you will be up til fiveAM 06:28:58 don't remind me ;_; I love fiveAM 06:29:10 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:29:13 saying fiveAM is even loosely based on JUnit is an insult 06:30:36 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:30:47 i'm learning actionscript, flexbuilder, flexsdk and haxe at the same time 06:30:58 *p_l* just found that the possible market for his project is too close to zero to consider working on it. 06:31:27 p_l: what project? 06:31:30 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:31:41 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:31:58 sykopomp: online flight planner + various tools for GA pilots 06:32:07 woah 06:32:52 p_l: if you need quick cash, spend a week learning Asterisk and Vicidial; it's been a steady source of gigs for me when i had nothing else 06:32:58 sykopomp: including a complete route generation 06:33:07 fusss: Thanks for the tip 06:33:22 p_l: Too close to zero?.... 06:33:39 p_l: 1) it's gonna put you in touch with business people, 2) they will have other admin/programming jobs you can help them with 06:33:46 p_l: isn't that basically what ITA uses lisp for? :P 06:33:52 sykopomp: European market is too small. few thousand clients is not enough 06:33:58 sykopomp: They are targeting different market 06:34:11 I was planning to target GA 06:34:35 (clients as individuals who *might* use you app) 06:35:43 maybe if I got some airfields interested... 06:35:53 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:35:58 bohanlon` [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 06:36:38 p_l: do you know anything about the major route planning companies? there is one (Atlas?) that basically owns the international civilian and defense markets 06:37:19 they do sea travel routes as well (basically the Rand McNally of air and sea transportation) 06:37:41 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:37:41 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a69-160.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:37:41 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:37:41 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:37:41 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:37:41 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:37:41 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:37:42 -!- te [n=deph@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-507c598d16e01006] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:37:42 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:37:42 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:37:42 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:37:42 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:37:42 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:37:42 -!- sktrdie [n=sktrdie@adsl-75-32-37-220.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:37:42 -!- maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 06:37:56 fusss: All 'major' companies (in EU) seem to target commercial traffic. Basically few airlines will pay you more than the whole GA market 06:38:25 maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has joined #lisp 06:38:28 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 06:38:33 and competing in their field would be very hard 06:38:46 sktrdie [n=sktrdie@adsl-75-32-37-220.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:49 te [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-eb730cf33b7963f4] has joined #lisp 06:38:50 ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 06:38:56 do you have at least one client who needs this done? 06:39:00 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 06:39:13 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 06:39:47 fusss: No one specific, it was an idea cooked some time last year (I'm a glider pilot), so just for kick I did some market research 06:40:02 a knowledgeable customer with a need is well worth finding, even if you have to charge them retail (i would do it gratis even, for their full feedback/input) 06:40:36 minion: tell banisterfiend about gentle 06:40:36 banisterfiend: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 06:40:47 minion: gentle? 06:40:47 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 06:40:51 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.131.220] has joined #lisp 06:40:52 fusss: I agree 06:41:17 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 06:41:25 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-108-6.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:42:59 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:44:47 too many good hackers are ignoring important but "boring" problems that need solving, imo. 06:45:41 fusss: Boring? Which ones? 06:45:59 where do i start 06:45:59 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:46:11 fusss: start with the one that made you say that :P 06:46:26 A call center management solution that runs on Windows 06:46:28 I tend to think that just about anything is interesting to -someone- 06:46:53 that doesn't sound like a boring problem 06:46:54 AstGuiClient is SHIT; we all got paid to install it only because it is _hard_ 06:47:00 it doesn't have to be that way 06:47:16 It sounds like something that someone with experience and interest in that field could/should write up 06:47:43 how about collaboration software for *graphics artists*; all the tools are for software developers, how about version control for Photoshop PSDs and other graphic formats? 06:48:07 sure, why not? 06:48:24 do you know of ANY that do that? I'm all ears :-) 06:48:37 are you interested in that? :) 06:48:49 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 06:48:55 because if you are, you should do it. Those aren't 'boring tasks that no one feels like doing' 06:49:16 it's 'tasks that no one has gotten around to doing because people are doing other things' 06:49:16 i'm writing my own with Elephant and hunchentoot; using the file system for "version control", and when I'm done with i'm never gonna look at it again, sell it or give it to anyone. 06:49:40 hum 06:49:45 fusss: Version control? Isn't project management included by default in Creative Suite? 06:49:49 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:49:54 actually, my college has this collab system for animation students called Helga 06:49:57 it's really neat 06:50:17 online collab, storyboarding, uploading of animation files, versioning, etc. 06:50:22 p_l: maybe, but half of the artists i work with are not even using photoshop, more like primitive bitmap editors they wrote themselves 06:50:39 fusss: you work with space-alien graphic artists 06:50:43 from the moon 06:50:53 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a69-160.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:51:03 sykopomp: heh 06:51:13 sykopomp: You forgot "and from different universe" 06:51:20 p_l: different mooniverse. 06:52:00 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:52:10 I find it hard to spot an artist that would use a "primitive bitmap editor he/she wrote" 06:52:36 4 guys use 'graphic gale' 06:52:45 bizarre 06:53:01 fusss: That beats the most obscure stuff I heard of 06:53:15 these are bitmap editors for making 32x32 pixel sprites for mobile phones 06:53:18 i considered writing a bitmap editor in elisp for my 16x16 tiles 06:53:24 and made a working prototype 06:53:28 unfortunately :) 06:54:27 milanj [n=milan@77.46.187.66] has joined #lisp 06:54:40 fusss: Well, then I can understand. In terms of graphics I hang either around DTP, photo editing or some of the 'original content creation' stuff (who use stuff that tries to emulate real painting workshop) 06:54:57 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:55:25 fusss: Though the language the screenshot shows seems to explain more :D 06:56:12 i think more hackers should hang out with small business owners, they come up with weird "problems" :-) most of it due to vendor lock in, and their old stuff getting made obselete 06:56:31 hah, .jp 06:57:00 kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:00 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:05 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:14 fusss: .jp sort of explains all kinds of oddities. It seems to me they have much more active shareware/freeware development than outside... 06:57:30 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:57:50 especially in terms of making specialised tools where other shoehorn some 'standard' package 06:58:03 kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 06:58:39 anyway, any small business owner willing to think, listen & pay would have a loyal supplier out of me 06:59:09 had one of those back in poland - wonderful thing to do 07:00:05 woah, your whois still says .pl; proxy? 07:00:09 lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has joined #lisp 07:00:31 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@239.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:00:39 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-75-58.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:00:53 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.187.66] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:01:32 Raynes [i=kvirc@AC8CFC8F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 07:01:38 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:42 fusss: shell in poland 07:02:55 oh 07:02:56 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:03:32 gotta call it a night 07:03:36 cheers! 07:03:42 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 2.0.0.18/2008102918]"] 07:04:08 night 07:04:20 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.252.68] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:05:52 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:38 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-19-17.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:09:59 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:25 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.196.67] has joined #lisp 07:11:40 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has joined #lisp 07:12:05 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0D3DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:14:32 -!- Raynes [i=kvirc@AC8CFC8F.ipt.aol.com] has left #lisp 07:23:06 good morning 07:23:13 hello mvilleneuve 07:24:32 -!- beach` is now known as beach 07:26:24 morning 07:26:35 hello nikodemus 07:29:32 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 07:32:49 ABCL vs CLISP on CL-BENCHMARKs https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/attachment.php?list_name=armedbear-j-devel&message_id=CFAC93BD509C41908F6399FD3E51B0F4%40lotus&counter=1 07:33:11 also it includes the Mono/.NET times using IKVM 07:35:20 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:35:49 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D3DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:37 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 07:44:35 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:46:08 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:12 dynamic_space_size &= ~(PAGE_BYTES-1); 07:55:58 that's not good if PAGE_BYTES is a literal without explicit L suffix and dynamic_space_size is 64 bits wide, right? 07:58:25 -!- pwned [n=epitaph@78.176.99.185] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:58:31 pwned_ [n=epitaph@78.176.99.185] has joined #lisp 07:59:29 athos [n=philipp@p54B850D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:51 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a69-160.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:03:06 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 08:03:07 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 08:05:46 how do i skip to the last character on a line in emacs? (the opposite of M-m) 08:06:17 pervonisse [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has joined #lisp 08:07:30 banisterfiend: C-e might suffice 08:08:08 nah cos i have trailing white space :( 08:08:20 i need last printing character on the line (not incl white space) 08:08:28 banisterfiend: M-x whitespace-cleanup 08:08:30 then C-e 08:08:30 :) 08:09:29 i dont have a whitespace-cleanup 08:09:44 are you in emacs?... 08:09:50 M-x delete-trailing-whitespace 08:10:06 is this a version thing?... 08:10:15 or at least it didnt work 08:10:23 i mean it didnt work i have the command 08:10:27 thanks stassats ill try that 08:10:49 that worked! 08:10:52 thanks 08:10:58 weird why do you think whitespace-cleanup didn't work? 08:11:16 replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-159-212.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:11:17 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 08:12:00 banisterfiend: what version of emacs? 08:12:57 22.1.1 08:13:02 M-: (require 'whitespace) 08:14:56 jestocost [n=cmell@cad43e-021.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:16:38 should i upgrade my version of emacs? 08:18:19 Morning. 08:18:47 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-178-25-42.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:04 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:20:01 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 08:20:02 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:22:19 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:22:20 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 08:22:57 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:31 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:26:33 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:29:13 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D3DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:29:32 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-60-38.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:29:59 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 08:34:18 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D3DB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:41 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-15-186.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 08:36:41 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:40:32 jb-firefoxx [n=chatzill@80.87.94.124] has joined #lisp 08:40:37 -!- jb-firefoxx [n=chatzill@80.87.94.124] has left #lisp 08:41:45 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:45:38 *sykopomp* thinks it's pretty clear that climacs -needs- to be usable soon. 08:45:45 *sykopomp* puts climacs on his haxing list. 08:48:19 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 08:50:46 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:50:57 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 08:52:35 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-178-25-42.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:54:19 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:59:34 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:03:04 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:17 bah 09:03:59 nostoi [n=nostoi@197.Red-81-39-224.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:04:03 yet another night of flash induced insomnia 09:04:47 the Adobe variety? 09:04:52 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:05:47 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:05:51 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:05:52 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 09:06:46 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.196.67] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:07:57 pjb pasted "fore-to-indentation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71568 09:08:20 banisterfiend: have a look at fore-to-indentation... 09:08:41 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:28 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:13:51 vtl [n=user@nat/redhat/x-177853dcaa4e2a20] has joined #lisp 09:14:17 Anarki [n=tprg@granit.intersv.com] has joined #lisp 09:16:16 crod [n=cmell@cad43e-021.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:16:42 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cad43e-021.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:19:53 Good morning. 09:20:12 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:22:21 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-178-25-42.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:35 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:23:03 vsync [n=vsync@220-27.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:23:12 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.42] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:25:06 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:26:14 good morning, spiaggia. 09:27:34 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:47 tic: so what do you think of mudballs ? 09:27:52 tic: hello 09:27:56 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:29:12 -!- rread [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:29:14 mornin' beach 09:29:23 morning spiaggia 09:29:27 4:30am, still tickin'. Woo. 09:30:09 prxq [n=mommer@Ybf8f.y.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 09:30:27 sykopomp: heh :-P same TZ here. NJ? 09:30:38 fusss: WMass 09:30:42 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:30:50 noice. dc here. 09:33:16 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 09:33:26 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 09:35:05 l_a_m, hi. I don't know what to think, really. I really like the idea, and if people adapt it, the project might be on to something. 09:35:54 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.44] has joined #lisp 09:36:01 anyways. I learned a good lesson tonight. I am thus far completely incapable of debugging applications that aren't written in a side-effect-limiting, referentially-transparent style. 09:36:12 heavy state = /me turns into a useless potato 09:36:17 :( 09:37:09 sykopomp: can't you do the inverse monad transformation in your head? 09:37:40 no, I do not have magic-brains 09:37:45 only squishy-brains 09:38:16 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:38:31 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:41:03 -!- appletizer [i=a@82-46-31-101.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [] 09:44:01 sykopomp: Hacking on Climacs? 09:44:14 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:44:16 l_a_m: Could it be made to add simple support for ASDF as compilation system? i.e. have the whole management part handled by mudballs, but call asdf to load a system (after mudballs specifies all locations)? 09:44:46 tcr: god no. If only. I spent the past... uhhh.. 8 hours working on java code. 09:44:53 couldn't even fix a trivial bug :( 09:45:24 l_a_m, so you're the author? 09:45:37 i read a good think about mudballs : it accepts version specifiers for dependencies ... 09:45:41 tic: no 09:45:56 i just test i after Xach post 09:46:09 p_l, why, though? Isn't mudballs meant to replace ASDF? 09:46:34 tic: Some implementations have their own, specific extensions. Like ECL 09:46:39 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:47:28 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:48:02 for example, for building the system as a dynamic library (.DLL, .so, .whatever) 09:48:31 yeah, they'd have to be rewritten. or Mudballs upgraded to allow for easily adding extensions? 09:49:45 tic: A transition method could be to add a switch which would call apropriate asdf operations in sequence provided by mudballs 09:50:31 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:50:53 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:10 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 09:54:29 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:55:37 heeeeeyyyy this mudballs thing looks nead 09:55:38 ;) 09:57:56 sykopomp: focus! don't let me dangle my hypnotic pimp-chain before you, with a pendant that spells "CLASSPATH". 09:58:27 fusss: mention anything that remunds me of java and I pull out my paren-shank >:( 09:58:38 I can't even spell anymore. It's like the virus of stoopid. 09:59:18 haha 10:00:45 elurin [n=user@85.99.195.61] has joined #lisp 10:00:58 hey. Mudballs looks pretty sweet. 10:01:16 if it allows for VC pulling, I'm sold. 10:01:28 VC pulling, along with the regular versioning stuff, that is 10:01:45 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:04:14 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit [" The answer, my friends, is blowing out your brains."] 10:05:22 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@197.Red-81-39-224.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:07:49 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 10:08:09 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:11:35 mega1 [n=mega@pool-04765.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:12:59 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:13:14 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 10:14:00 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 10:14:37 eevar2 [n=jalla@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:14:55 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 10:15:32 nikodemus: re last commit, is there a reason for not supporting getting at the underlying vector of non-simple arrays not unlike with-array-data? 10:17:32 hurrah! my bug is fixed. 10:20:30 I wonder how long it would take for mudballs to take over asdf stuff. 10:22:00 uggh, premature celebration 10:22:20 if mudballs ends up actually turning out as good as it sounds, of course :) 10:22:25 I'm not even trying it yet :P 10:22:36 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:22:51 failed on sbcl-1.0.18/linux, supposedly fixed now 10:23:32 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:24:07 has anyone here worked on climacs, by the way? 10:24:39 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 10:25:15 sykopomp, schme IIRC. 10:28:02 <_8david> sykopomp: spiaggia, Athas, splittist, and others 10:28:27 mm 10:28:36 does sbcl support CLOS? 10:28:47 yes 10:28:50 banisterfiend: any comman lisp implementation has to support CLOS 10:28:55 cool 10:28:56 otherwise, it's not a CL implementation 10:29:01 what's oop like in CLOS ? 10:29:11 advanced or quite primitive? 10:29:16 minion: tell banisterfiend about pcl 10:29:17 banisterfiend: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 10:29:28 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a5b-219.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:29:30 banisterfiend: so advanced it'll turn your brain to happy mush 10:29:35 great 10:29:58 -!- crod [n=cmell@cad43e-021.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:30:10 banisterfiend: have a look at fore-to-indentation at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71568 10:30:25 banisterfiend: it's not really like most other object systems out there, though, so keep an open mind about it. It's quite a fancy little beast. 10:30:59 does it support adding methods to instances at runtime? 10:31:02 (a la ruby) 10:31:11 banisterfiend: read PCL 10:31:17 banisterfiend: ruby is a Matzacred Lisp. So what do you think? 10:31:30 matimago: Matzacred smalltalk. Haven't we been over this? 10:31:41 well i figured he got that OOP elements from smalltalk :) 10:31:54 banisterfiend: yes, but ruby's style of adding methods at runtime is not usually used with clos (i.e. you don't run into a "method-not-defined" error and then add a method) 10:31:57 sykopomp: out of the mouth of the horse: http://web.archive.org/web/20060522191515/http://ruby-talk.org/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/179642 10:32:05 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:32:19 -!- tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@unaffiliated/tc-rucho] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 10:32:23 *sykopomp* waits for the page to load... slowly 10:32:50 LE GASP 10:33:30 I was wondering why it felt so lispy... I attributed it to smalltalk. 10:33:50 That's why you can put parentheses all over ruby code... 10:34:00 you can?... 10:34:07 Yep. 10:34:15 I've only really been over a couple of basic ruby tutorials 10:34:18 :> 10:34:20 But you also have to insert newlines... 10:34:30 meh >:( 10:34:40 (class Example / (def ha(arg) / (arg + 2) / end) / end) 10:34:55 that's sort of hilarious 10:35:12 There's also some strange rules about commas and no space between the function name and the argument list.. 10:35:44 hey i get an error when i try to add that script to my .emacs 10:35:50 it says 'function definition void key' 10:36:23 banisterfiend: I tried it in emacs-version -> "22.2.1" 10:36:42 banisterfiend: do you have (require :cl) in your .emacs? :P 10:36:46 Ha, not the key. s/key/kbd/ 10:36:52 rread [n=rread@c-76-102-10-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:37:16 ah ok 10:37:19 cheers 10:37:41 banisterfiend: but in general you should avoid trailling spaces anyways. 10:37:47 Man. I should really sleep or something. 10:37:53 night 10:37:59 Good night! 10:39:06 night and thanks! 10:41:44 kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ad6a38afd1e829f7] has joined #lisp 10:41:50 hello lispers 10:42:08 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:42:23 Why does this make me think of the Beatles? ;-) 10:42:31 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.44] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:46:17 -!- pervonisse [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has quit [] 10:47:53 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-49.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:48:03 http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/m-expression/m-expression.lisp I'll just leave this here. *whistles and wanders away* 10:48:45 sykopomp: this is just a proof of concept to make people complaining about parentheses and prefix shut-up :-) 10:48:52 I know ;) 10:49:07 but it's interesting that it's there. I might play with it :P 10:49:27 It could help to try old code published in papers. 10:49:50 (the used to write m-expressions in papers, and to translate it to s-expressions on punched-cards) 10:49:55 s/the /they / 10:54:12 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:55:19 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 10:58:20 ths [n=ths@p549AF4E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:17 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X46d5.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:23 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:03:07 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 11:03:32 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:04:37 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 11:04:59 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:05:21 matimago: if you are interested in ruby you might be interested in this: http://github.com/banister/object2module/tree/master 11:05:22 (maybe) 11:07:35 never use a language you can't write a parser for in an afternoon 11:09:21 fusss: good advice! 11:09:53 banisterfiend: this looks quite technical. What use do you put it to? 11:10:38 banisterfiend: I mean, there's already instance methods for prototype OO in ruby, and you can always add method to any class (even Ruby predefined classes) or define a subclass... 11:12:32 matimago: something very technical :) if you have heard of mixico it can be used to mix an object/class into the binding of a block so that you can get all the advantages of instance_eval without the disadvantages (change of self etc) 11:13:13 matimago: but you cannot mixin an object or a class into another object/class dynamically 11:15:21 ok 11:15:32 bbl 11:15:49 banisterfield: if you want to read a bit CLOS and its background, see here: http://www.dreamsongs.com/CLOS.html 11:16:06 yum garlic 11:17:39 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:20:27 lispm: Nice, reading now 11:20:45 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:22:00 vasa [n=vasa@mm-53-91-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 11:23:09 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:31 hey sorry i dc 11:23:33 matimago: the explanation is quite complex i can give you a link 11:23:39 holdon 11:24:11 http://hackety.org/2008/10/06/mixingOurWayOutOfInstanceEval.html 11:24:19 banisterfiend: check out http://www.dreamsongs.com/CLOS.html for CLOS background 11:24:23 cool 11:24:25 thanks 11:24:41 my stupid wireless internet is really unstable at the moment 11:24:43 i keep being dc 11:25:24 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-178-25-42.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:27:01 matimago: the overall idea is that if we can dynamically mix an objects methods or a class's methods into the binding of a block then we can do some very clever things with mix_eval() (explained in that article). But the limitation of ruby is that it only lets you treat modules in this special dynamic way and so i convert the inheritance chain of a class (or singleton class of an object) to a module then mix it into the binding o 11:27:01 f the block and we get very nice behaviour for our mix_eval which is far superior to ordinary instance_eval and also (using my method) is threadsafe too 11:28:20 tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@190.191.162.100] has joined #lisp 11:30:01 cracki [n=cracki@44-226.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:31:37 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@dhcp-47251.stud.phys.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 11:32:01 hi folks... one question: is lisp case sensitive? I found some confusing info on the web. 11:32:17 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:32 yeah i want to know the answer to that too, i have a feeling it is not 11:32:41 Dynetrekk: it is for symbols 11:33:23 tc-rucho: could you elaborate a bit more? 11:34:49 Dynetrekk pasted "insensitivty" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71570 11:34:50 mornfall_ [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 11:34:53 looks like functions are the same: 11:34:56 tc-rucho: eh? I mean, the reader upcases all symbols (unless you give it something with | |) 11:35:21 Dynetrekk: the reader is case-translating 11:35:35 sykopomp: right 11:35:35 adeht: so... it doesn't care? 11:35:43 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:35:59 Dynetrekk: in general, you don't have to worry about case with Lisp, for symbols. 11:36:12 sykopomp: symbols = function names ++ ? 11:36:13 <_8david> Practical Common Lisp explains all this. I recommend reading it. 11:36:13 Dynetrekk: but it's worth noting that it *is* case-sensitive, to an extent 11:36:17 Dynetrekk: it does.. in your example, the current readtable's case is :upcase .. you can set it to, say, :invert, to get different behavior 11:36:20 sykopomp: confusing. 11:36:41 Dynetrekk: don't worry about it, it's a trivial matter 11:36:56 all right... I'll code "case sensitive" and see what shows up... 11:36:56 Dynetrekk: in general, you just won't have to deal with it. Just think of it as insensitive, but know that it's not quite that way ;p 11:37:20 aha 11:37:29 Dynetrekk: also, as a fun little note. You can define symbols with any character, as long as it's between | | 11:37:30 so just write lowercase with - and be done with it 11:37:35 aha 11:37:36 and -that- will be case-sensitive 11:37:48 such as |$%| = 5 ? 11:37:52 or whatever 11:38:01 (defun $% cock() () ) 11:38:09 (defun $%cock() () ) 11:38:09 between | | 11:38:12 right 11:38:25 (defun |$%cock| () ("hello world") ) 11:38:28 |2 + 2 = 5| is valid 11:38:47 Dynetrekk: actually, $ and % can be used even outside || 11:38:54 Dynetrekk: for example, (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :invert) (eq 'hello 'HELLO) ==> nil 11:38:59 okay, but IF they were... eh.. okay 11:39:08 I see 11:39:19 now 'hello and 'HELLO are symbols that are not equal 11:39:38 but if it is :upcase or whatever, they would e 11:39:39 be 11:39:40 yes, but only because of the way those expressions are now being read 11:40:09 an actual symbol always has a SYMBOL-NAME that's a partcular string, and it's always case-sensitivly compared (by INTERN and FIND-SYMBOL) 11:40:48 Dynetreek: if the readtable used by the reader has :upcase case, it will translate downcased characters into the corresponding upcased characters 11:41:04 -!- mornfall_ [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:41:06 mornfall1 [n=mornfall@anna.fi.muni.cz] has joined #lisp 11:41:28 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:41:28 Symbols are an important part of the 'code is data' idea 11:41:35 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:41:39 identifiers are read as symbols 11:42:45 (a a34 1+ foo FOO |FoO| |Foo Bar| *this-is-a-symbol*) is a list of symbols 11:43:01 all right.. I guess that kinda answers my question 11:43:01 -!- maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:43:12 *Dynetrekk* goes to study some more lisp to fully process 11:43:21 bon weekend etc 11:45:58 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181132005.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:48:54 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@dhcp-47251.stud.phys.ntnu.no] has quit [] 11:49:43 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:50:55 repnop [n=Mage@adsl-69-225-0-181.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 11:52:25 Eleanore [n=a@ip215131.lbinternet.se] has joined #lisp 11:53:29 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-64-33.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:54:31 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:55:05 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:55:15 i just found some code: (defun describe-path (path) 11:55:15 `(there is a ,(second path) going ,(first path) from here.)) 11:55:18 what does the , mean? 11:55:45 banisterfiend: Could you PLEASE read PCL? 11:55:51 or any other lisp book? 11:56:03 i am reading a lisp book but im also reading tutorials and other sites on the web 11:56:15 banisterfiend, so fast-forward to the section on macros and backquotes. 11:56:23 it's not so easy 11:56:29 fast-forwarding? 11:56:31 cos the book im reading doesn't have an index 11:56:34 or contents 11:56:41 "gentle lisp" 11:56:44 banisterfiend, so read Practical Common Lisp instead. 11:56:50 banisterfiend, http://gigamonkeys.com/book 11:57:17 k 11:57:22 banisterfiend: this looks like an example from the SPELS thing, too 11:57:27 yes it is 11:57:36 but the explanation wasn't very good there 11:57:42 cos it's racing through things so quickly 11:57:57 he's also trying to explain macros to someone who doesn't even understand how the language works yet. 11:58:04 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 11:58:16 well that's the way that particular tutorial is structured 11:58:25 banisterfiend: read the books first. Worry about macros later ;) 11:58:29 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:58:29 it goes very fast and doesn't i dont think even expect you to understand all of it 11:59:38 -!- replor_ [n=replor@EM114-48-159-212.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:59:44 read this and see if you think it explains enough to understand about commas: http://www.lisperati.com/looking.html 11:59:52 it just says it 'flops' back into code mode wtf that means 12:00:25 banisterfiend, that is what it does. 12:01:01 banisterfiend, quote returns its arguments unevaluated, and backquote does the same thing with a mechanism (,) for explicitly evaluating certain arguments. 12:01:18 banisterfiend, you should read PCL and the chapter on macros. 12:01:41 yeah, and a crime only exists if there's both 'mens rea' and 'actus rea' 12:01:46 ah 12:01:47 thanks 12:02:04 actus reus* 12:02:13 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181129218.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:02:37 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E44B5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:45 banisterfiend, I had no problems understanding it without prior knowledge of macros, first time I looked at it. Thanks to the pretty picture. 12:02:56 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:02:59 banisterfiend, but anyway.. PCL is where it's at. 12:03:29 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:03:31 ah i get it! 12:03:35 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:03:36 yeah i was being stupid 12:03:37 thanks 12:03:51 *sykopomp* could've told him that. 12:04:38 so ' in front of a list says 'this is all in data mode' and then the , in front of items in that list say 'excepting us' 12:04:48 banisterfiend, , only works for ` 12:04:56 what's the diff b/w ' and ` ? 12:05:00 i thought they were the same 12:05:06 banisterfiend, ` allows for , whereas ' does not. 12:05:11 ah 12:05:18 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 12:05:37 banisterfiend: ` is a macro for '(go read pcl chapter on macros) 12:06:01 banisterfiend, thing is, you'll probably get a much better explanation there with good examples, than us on IRC. 12:06:02 hehe 12:06:40 and a lot less repeating ourselves. 12:07:02 can you program C sykopomp? 12:07:28 banisterfiend: Haven't actually learned it properly yet, so I guess I should probably answer no. 12:07:36 banisterfiend, why? 12:08:32 hehe i was going to say something snarky but i thought better of it 12:09:20 because you can a chapter in a C book a thousand times about the relationship between pointers and arrays but chances are you're not going to properly understand it until someone takes the time to explain it to you 12:09:20 but nevermind 12:09:25 read* 12:09:41 That won't improve your karma in #lisp. It's considered good style around here to speak only when you have something to say, and trying to find answers to obvious questions yourself if sources have been pointed out. 12:09:59 pointers aren't straight forward? ;) 12:10:28 repnop: well, there's the whole thing with being a four-* C programmer and stuff 12:10:31 so 'maybe' 12:10:31 `(foo) == '(foo), but `(,bar) == (list bar) and `(quux ,zot,@feh) == (append (list 'quux zot) feh), etc 12:10:35 repnop, the basics of them are but they get pretty thorny when you examine them with relation to arrays 12:11:09 pointers are so simple that at least 50% of C bugs are pointer-related 12:11:11 esp. multi dimensional arrays 12:11:20 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181132005.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:12:03 for example: char array[10][20]; what is the type of array[0] 12:12:24 char * correct? 12:12:27 no 12:12:36 :) 12:12:41 (told you they're tricky) 12:13:09 <_8david> Let's discuss tricky Lisp details, not C details! 12:13:42 bah. there are no tricky lisp details :) 12:14:06 funny since array[0] give me the address to a char array in gcc :p 12:14:06 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-178-151-129.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:14:14 schme: unwind-protect vs. threads ;-) 12:14:15 doesn't matter 12:14:16 banisterfiend: good thing this isn't ##C, eh? 12:14:22 matimago: hush :) 12:14:25 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-178-151-129.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:14:27 repnop: i said type not value :) 12:14:29 schme: you still messing around with climacs? 12:14:36 phao [n=phao@189.13.96.180] has joined #lisp 12:14:48 hear hear. #c is --> over there. (C stuff is ok when it actually relates to a lisp project, of course) 12:14:50 schme: I finally got around to toying with it. Makes me wish I could replace emacs with it :) 12:14:52 sykopomp: Supposedly, yes. I am on a break now since my encounter with a dope fiend. 12:15:18 it's char * as far as the compiler cares..end of story 12:15:25 sykopomp: I have issues with climacs.. I would love to replace emacs with it for sure, but it doesn't seem to like my Meta. 12:15:28 mathrick [n=mathrick@87.54.43.37] has joined #lisp 12:15:33 but yeah not #c 12:15:44 sykopomp: only lacking thing is a McCLIM version of gnus :) 12:16:19 repnop: no it isn't 12:16:25 schme: it also croaks with an ESA error whenever I try to eval a lisp function, it has annoying tab-completion for minibuffer stuff, and it refuses to take input unless my pointer is over the window :( 12:16:27 I don't like how input focus works in McCLIM 12:16:38 Heh. 12:16:38 >:( 12:17:03 but it loads fast, and it's CL/McClim :D 12:17:14 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44B5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:17:16 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 12:17:37 repnop: char (*)[20] 12:18:00 yeah pointers don't care about the length...but again that isn't about lisp. 12:18:30 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:18:33 sykopomp: Oh I never got that far :) I just get too annoyed when it says M-x is not something at all. while Esc x works 12:18:48 tic: What are the input focus issues? 12:18:50 and i dont feel like getting banned :) 12:19:17 repnop: Xach seems to be MIA, so no out-of-the-blue banhammer for you :( 12:19:53 it's not a pointer to a char fullstop. it's a pointer to a char array of length 20, and the compiler does care. And it is exactly this relationship between pointers and arrays that is subtle, alot of ppl think they have conquered pointers/arrays when they say 'arrays are just pointers' but it's completely untrue. in some circumstances arrays behave like pointers but they are actually a distinct type and pointers to arrays exist a 12:19:54 nd though they may have the same value as a pointer to a char they are a distinct type. in fact without pointers to arrays, pointer arithmetic on multidimensional arrays wouldn't make sense 12:19:59 sorry 12:20:03 banisterfiend: please stop. 12:20:20 yes however you view C is fine, it doesn't change how the compiler works, or what people think. 12:20:25 lets move on already. 12:20:52 hehehe, 'how the compiler works'. if the compiler worked the way you're saying it does 75% of all C programs would crash 12:21:00 anyway let's move on 12:21:39 -!- tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@190.191.162.100] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 12:23:51 hmmm.. 12:24:02 I think I might have somewhat of the same input focus problem now that I think of it. 12:24:51 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-226.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:25:01 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [] 12:25:09 schme, mostly about having to hover the mouse over the field you want to type in. 12:25:36 tic: That does sound like complete shit. And I think I had the same issue :) 12:25:44 maybe related to focus follows mouse. 12:26:00 I guess I will find that more annoying when I add text input panes :) 12:27:09 the solution is obviously to ditch the keyboard. 12:27:33 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:28:41 Of course. 12:28:57 a bit tricky for a text editor I suppose :) 12:29:35 -!- mornfall1 is now known as mornfall 12:30:41 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 12:31:11 Good afternoon. 12:31:16 schme, don't be so conservative. 12:31:23 hi plage. in 'nam? 12:31:24 mornin' beach 12:31:39 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 12:31:47 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:07 tic: not yet, no. I am in a meeting. 12:32:08 tic: I have some pointing device input thing on my Z that works quite well... I just have a hard time imagining it for writing good :) 12:32:14 maybe one could make it spit out symbols. 12:32:15 hoh. 12:32:22 well there you go. 12:32:40 plage: haha. A meeting? 12:33:26 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 13 (Permission denied)] 12:33:37 sykopomp: yeah, most meetings consist of 95% wasted time. Might as well be on IRC. 12:33:51 tic: feel free to fix input focus. 12:34:18 plage: Why aren't all profs this awesome? 12:34:19 plage: meetings need to be done with high bandwidth telepathic networks, like in Futurama :-) 12:35:44 *plage* has never watched Futurama, and in fact had to Google for it in order to know what it is. 12:35:58 sykopomp: beats me! :) 12:36:55 Hi all 12:37:23 plage: my profs make snarky comments :( I mentioned liking dynamic languages, and also being interested in FP, and haskell. One of them literally snorted and told me to enjoy my buggy, type-error-filled app :( 12:37:48 I have sent a e-mail to cl-markdown-devel@common-lisp.net (I've subscribed to it before) and the mail got lost 12:38:13 I mean it does not appear in the list archives nor is it delivered back to me 12:38:22 sykopomp: your prof a java programmer? 12:38:49 is that list moderated or should I try sending e-mail again? 12:38:52 kli [n=kli@c-71-236-28-58.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:03 banisterfiend: There's two for this class. One most definitely comes off as a java programmer, the other one doesn't seem to be that much into java, but I really don't know what he -is- into. 12:39:14 probably c# hehe 12:39:24 definitely not functional languages, definitely not C++, and definitely not any dynamic lang 12:39:27 *sykopomp* shrugs 12:40:19 sykopomp: sorry to hear that I have such strange colleagues. 12:40:23 sykopomp: my advice is to totally ignore snarky profs. 12:40:40 sykopomp: if you let them influence you, you'll make bad career choices. 12:41:03 function programming making a very strong comeback it looks like 12:41:06 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:08 esp. in multi-core environments 12:41:11 sykopomp: what is your university again? 12:41:15 matimago: I mostly complain about them to make myself feel better because I can't be snarky at them. I also avoid mentioning lisp like the plague. 12:42:07 sykopomp: I agree. There is no point in mentioning it, because they wouldn't understand anyway. 12:42:23 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-64-33.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:42:29 oddly enough, the one who made the comment actually spoke to me about how neat CLOS' MOP is 12:42:43 and how he's glad Java has 'similar features' now. 12:43:15 oh no, it did appear. Sorry 12:44:33 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-64-33.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:52:34 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has quit [] 12:52:53 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:54:54 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:56:15 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 12:57:07 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-64-33.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:02:58 plage, I do not know what the intended behaviour is supposed to be. 13:03:02 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:05:14 nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs181129218.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:05:24 nunb [n=user@217.133.104.225] has joined #lisp 13:05:37 tic: For one thing, if the window manager says the CLIM app has the focus, then the CLIM app should receive event, which doesn't happen at the moment. 13:05:42 is there a build in help in slime, so i can look up the documenation of a lisp command? 13:06:11 plage, correct. I need to hover over the actual element to type into it. So that's known issue? 13:06:33 tic: I have noticed it, and it has annoyed me in the past, yes. 13:06:49 plage, any idea as to why it happens? 13:07:06 nope (or I would have fixed it) :) 13:07:51 banisterfiend: C-c C-d h on top of a symbol on COMMON-LISP package 13:08:02 Just checking. Sometimes you know about the problem but it's too complex to fix it. Not that I think you'd think anything would be too complex to fix, of course. ;) 13:08:06 thanks 13:08:10 so having to have your mouse over the window is a common problem? 13:08:18 yes 13:08:28 sykopomp, not just the window, but the actual pane you want to type in 13:08:36 or C-c C-d d on top of just about anything for DESCRIBE 13:08:43 yeah, I noticed that part upon closer inspection.. ugh 13:08:53 is it likely to be CLX's fault? 13:10:04 nikodemus_: have you seen my earlier question? 13:10:05 It could be, though it is more likely that the devlopers weren't sure how it works. 13:11:15 *nikodemus_* checks logs 13:13:39 replor [n=replor@EM114-48-64-33.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:13:46 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181129218.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:14:38 mega1: simplicity, i guess 13:15:12 *tic* takes the McCLIM manual out for a walk. 13:16:20 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:17:21 and dealing with offsets &co while having the same api support non-simple-vector -> data-vector and multidimensional-simple -> data-vector seemed like more trouble than it is worth 13:17:49 i'm not terribly religious about that, though 13:18:55 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:19:50 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 13:19:55 also, since array-displacement already gives access to the displacement stuff, people can already get at it 13:20:24 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:21:14 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:21:15 nikodemus_: true, that leaves only non-displaced, non-simple arrays unsupported? 13:21:35 right. non-displaced vectors with fill-pointers 13:21:38 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:21:46 or adjustable ones 13:21:54 oh, right 13:29:30 -!- esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 13:31:34 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:32:46 nikodemus pasted "array-storage-vector" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71573 13:33:07 mega1: would that seem better? 13:33:22 athos_ [n=philipp@p54B86511.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:45 (add an optimizer for extra points to get rid of the branches when we know they cannot be true based on type information) 13:34:49 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 13:35:11 'hello 13:35:30 *trebor_dki* is back from munich & awake ;) 13:35:42 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 13:37:51 funny thing, input focus in mcclim didn't used to do this nonsense 13:38:28 xof "fixed" it for some other purpose, and this started 13:39:23 nikodemus_: yes, better. On top of this and array-displacement it's actually possible write something like with-array-data. 13:39:25 you might be able to randomly twiddle options until it goes away, but I never happened on the right combination 13:41:55 So who is planning to go with this mudball thing? 13:41:57 jajcloz [n=jaj@209.6.216.149] has joined #lisp 13:42:29 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:41 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-53-91-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 13:43:20 oh no mcclim in it at the moment. 13:43:23 *schme* pops back to the clbuild. 13:43:47 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:45:00 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:17 topo [n=topo@53.pool85-58-128.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 13:46:43 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B850D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:47:26 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@p54B86511.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:52:45 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A14DC.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:57:32 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:57:37 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:59:12 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:24 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:45 athos [n=philipp@p54B86511.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:43 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181129218.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:06:55 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:07:05 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@87.54.43.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:29 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:14 -!- repnop [n=Mage@adsl-69-225-0-181.dsl.skt2ca.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:13:50 -!- nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs181129218.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:15:54 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 14:19:03 -!- specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc"] 14:19:03 -!- lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Want lisppaste in your channel? Email lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net."] 14:19:03 -!- minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Common Lisp IRC library - http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-irc"] 14:19:15 lisppaste [n=lisppast@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:20 minion [n=minion@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:25 specbot [n=specbot@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:35 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 14:20:23 hefner: keyboard focus used to be point-to-focus; I think I made it click-to-focus 14:21:39 benny [n=benny@i577A18D9.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:21:48 schme: I'm likely to use it in the future for the nonexisting projects I have running 14:22:09 would there be any interest in a contractual programming micro-framework for lisp? 14:22:27 Xof: That shouldn't be in McCLIM though. It should do whatever the window manager does. 14:23:02 um, no, within an individual "window" it needs to manage its own focus 14:23:25 "which of the 10 currently-exposed text input boxes does my keystroke get delivered to?" 14:23:34 Xof: ah, OK. 14:23:35 Xof: that might be, at least with respect to gadgets - I recall it being "whoever-requested-focus-to-focus" but with the gadgets not attempting to focus in a sane way (I think the text gadget did request focus on pointer enter or something) 14:23:54 ejs1 [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 14:24:03 Xof: what changed is that it used to be that you didn't need to have the mouse pointer in the application window for it to receive keyboard events - now you do, which is just bizarre 14:24:41 Xof: perhaps it would be more intuitive to follow the system the rest of the system uses (being non-McCLIM (don't know if there is an interface for that, it might be the dullest idea ever)) 14:24:54 Xof: I was referring to a problem where, when I start pretty much any application, the window is in foucus even though I use point to focus and the mouse is not inside the window of the newly started application, but this is not the case for McCLIM applications. 14:25:30 hefner: yes, that's what I was referring to as well. 14:26:08 I don't understand it at all, unless it's mcclim itself imposing this behavior (which would explain why my attempts to flip the focus policy settings around in every combination never produced any change) 14:26:27 it's completely not impossible that mcclim's initial focus behaviour is wrong 14:26:44 and there indeed we should do the same as everything else 14:26:46 whatever that is 14:27:31 for instance, it might be that the logic that I (probably) put in behaves badly on first mapping, or something 14:27:34 I apologise 14:27:34 Xof: If I create a shell on an otherwise empty desktop, and move the pointer out of the shell, it still receives keyboard events. Not so with McCLIM applications. 14:28:02 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:28:06 So I don't think it's just an initial behavior thing. 14:28:12 Xof: is there some standard that window managers use to inform others about their behavior? If not, then there is no clean way of implementing it... and thus there is no reason to apologize 14:28:48 *madnificent* can't express himself when talking about graphical things, shutting up now 14:28:59 madnificent: EWMH? 14:28:59 elurin` [n=user@85.99.195.61] has joined #lisp 14:29:05 spiaggia: that is interesting, indeed. I can't remember anything I did that would have that effect 14:29:18 p_l: win! 14:29:40 Xof: I am not suggesting that this was as a result of your changes, of course. Indeed, I have no idea when this started happening. 14:30:05 mind you, I can't remember anything I did, full stop 14:30:13 heh 14:30:50 -!- jkantz_ [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:31:04 Xof: The window manager thinks the McCLIM application has the focus, so colors the window appropriately, but the application only receives events when the pointer is inside its top-level sheet. 14:32:48 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.195.61] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:33:18 I never understood what was wrong with the it worked before, where we told x11 which window to deliver keyboard events to, and that's where they were delivered 14:33:28 jgracin [n=jgracin@93-141-31-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:33:39 or the window manager, however it works (x11 is weird) 14:33:42 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:22 It seems to me that normally key pressing goes to whatever has focus, not so with mcclim. 14:34:31 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb51a2.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:35:12 actually, I do remember there was an issue or two, but I was never satisfied that preserving the event timestamps correctly wouldn't fix it 14:36:56 one thing that was wrong was that the mouse pointer had to be within a text widget for that widget to receive keystrokes 14:37:16 Is that not the way it is right now though? 14:37:22 no 14:37:23 schme: no. 14:37:26 No? 14:37:38 I start up climacs, give it focus, put mouse pointer outside it.. and it gets no keystrokes. 14:37:39 Xof: yes, but I thought that was entirely the widget's fault. 14:37:48 which widget? 14:37:55 Xof: the text widget. 14:38:05 what if you have two widgets? 14:38:17 there was mechanism there for assigning focus in the clx backend already, it just wasn't being used effectively by the gadgets. 14:38:35 schme: there you're seeing the thing that we're currently discussing, which is if the mouse pointer is outside the whole top-level window 14:38:54 hefner: I am not going to stand in the way of someone fixing it properly, or the way it was always meant to be 14:38:55 oh ok. 14:39:01 (I think, I could be wrong. I never tested it thoroughly. My thought was "god, this point-to-focus is awful, but I guess that's how moore wants it, so I'll leave it alone) 14:39:11 I'm sorry that I can't automatically fix things the way that they were meant to be first time round 14:39:18 bad Xof :( 14:39:25 *hefner* shrugs 14:39:36 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.83.0.105] has joined #lisp 14:39:47 Xof: It's very nice you do some fixing anyway, that's more than I've ever done :) 14:39:50 anyway, I have no idea why this occurs or how to fix it. 14:40:00 -!- replor [n=replor@EM114-48-64-33.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:40:54 *schme* just runs the clim apps fullscreen ;) 14:44:32 -!- kli [n=kli@c-71-236-28-58.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:45:44 Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:47:04 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:47:56 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:25 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has joined #lisp 14:52:52 -!- elurin` [n=user@85.99.195.61] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:53:52 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:36 Xof, it also happens if the mouse is inside the top-level window, but outside of the text pane you want to type in. 14:54:44 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:37 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:57:11 -!- vsync [n=vsync@220-27.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:58:33 tic: really? Crud 14:58:42 maybe I didn't fix anything at any point, then 15:00:02 maybe tic never clicked the text field and expects psychic focus assignment :) 15:01:15 Xof: was the age of Drei upon us when you worked on this? maybe you can blame athas! 15:01:19 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has joined #lisp 15:02:00 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.83.0.105] has left #lisp 15:02:17 <_8david> if only drei panes are broken, the blame goes to athas by default anyway, right? 15:03:02 hefner, that might very well be the case, now that you mention it. I expect an text input to have focus, e.g. when I omit a parameter to a command. 15:03:19 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:03:46 s/expect/expected/ 15:03:49 vasa [n=vasa@mm-53-91-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 15:03:57 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has joined #lisp 15:04:56 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:05:15 tic: oh. the accepting values things? that's all insane, and I don't expect any of it to work right. 15:05:38 anyway, I just stuck a second text edit gadget in the gadget test, and the focus assignment between them seems to work fine. 15:05:46 alright. 15:06:14 hmm, maybe accepting values needs to be hacked to assign keyboard focus as you move through it. that's easy enough. 15:06:45 nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs181129218.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:06:48 I should it should grab keyboard focus as soon as it's displayed. It's not like you want to do anything else with your keyboard immediately after pressing enter 15:07:52 get on that, would you? 15:08:08 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:08:38 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:08:55 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has joined #lisp 15:11:15 lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has joined #lisp 15:12:44 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:14:42 -!- Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:15:09 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 15:16:08 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181129218.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:19:11 elurin [n=user@85.99.195.61] has joined #lisp 15:19:37 milanj [n=milan@77.46.187.89] has joined #lisp 15:20:26 -!- _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:20:36 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:20:39 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:46 esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 15:21:47 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:26 tomsw [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 15:23:08 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:23:47 BrianRice-mb_ [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:28 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B86511.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:26:34 pkhuong: RCX is an UNSIGNED-REG? why does that second WORD-MOVE get inserted, then? IR2 doesn't optimize away type checks 15:26:50 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:29:31 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:29:43 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 15:29:52 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 15:30:04 -!- bohanlon` is now known as bohanlon 15:30:17 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:30:48 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 15:36:16 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:37:20 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a5b-219.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:37:57 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:37 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:40:10 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:40:42 gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:56 deximer [n=deximer@64.119.142.198] has joined #lisp 15:48:46 lukego_ [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has joined #lisp 15:48:52 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:49:33 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a9b-136.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:49:51 -!- lukego_ [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has quit [Client Quit] 15:52:37 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:54:18 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@93-141-31-131.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:55:38 wizzo [n=harbl@unaffiliated/wizzomafizzo] has joined #lisp 15:55:52 -!- gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 15:56:36 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:56:38 What's the difference between ' and `? Both prevent evaluation right? 15:56:49 what's a good Common Lisp environment for Mac OSX if you don't want to burden yourself with emacs? Some akin to Allegro 15:57:18 benny: rlwrap sbcl 15:57:20 cYmen, see the chapter on Macros in Practical Common Lisp, specifically backqute 15:57:26 MCL was nice 15:57:43 yeah, allegro is exactly like sbcl, thanks jrockway 15:57:59 cYmen, from a couple of arns ago: "banisterfiend, quote returns its arguments unevaluated, and backquote does the same thing with a mechanism (,) for explicitly evaluating certain arguments." 15:58:10 benny: i think openmcl has some nice ide-stuff for the mac. never used it though 15:58:21 tic: What's an arn? :) 15:58:44 Hun: thanks! I'll check it out 15:58:48 cYmen, I think it's the equivalent of an hour, I'm not sure. 15:59:00 ^^ 15:59:13 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb51a2.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 15:59:25 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.196] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:59:48 benny: it's called clozure cl now. 16:00:13 -!- Eleanore [n=a@ip215131.lbinternet.se] has quit ["aoeu"] 16:00:27 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 16:03:35 <_8david> benny: LispWorks has an IDE and supports Mac OS X 16:03:39 -!- rread [n=rread@c-76-102-10-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:05:44 _8david: that was the one I was looking for! I think I remember that one from lispm's dsl screencast 16:06:45 ejs [n=eugen@78.26.128.252] has joined #lisp 16:06:49 yup, just confirmed it... it's in the one from the screencast 16:07:12 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181129218.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:07:51 rpg [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has joined #lisp 16:07:58 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@223.pool85-49-171.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 16:08:11 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-53-91-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 16:09:18 olejorgenb [i=bronner@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 16:11:58 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 16:16:09 -!- nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs181129218.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:16:51 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:16:52 I think an "arn" is how long you feel time has passed while watching the movie "Arn". So I'd estimate about a week. 16:17:35 That's a good guess, however the truth could not be further away, because in fact, it is the unit of time from the movie Farscape. 16:17:43 (I /liked/ Arn, dagnabbit!) 16:17:54 s/movie/series/ 16:18:31 willb [n=wibenton@wireless34.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:19:08 *dcrawford* has never heard of Arn <_< >_> 16:19:30 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:06 sykopomp|class [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 16:22:55 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 16:24:01 -!- sykopomp|class [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:24:17 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:24:30 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D902.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:00 dcrawford: http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0837106/ ; I'd guess... 16:28:24 -!- tomsw [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has left #lisp 16:29:37 correct. 16:29:42 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:30:34 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:30:51 sctb [n=sctb@mail.arcurve.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:09 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:33:41 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:34:41 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 16:35:37 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 16:36:06 some bavarian-p? 16:36:29 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:19 dfox_ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 16:38:06 <_theHAM> what's a common way (in CL) to generate lists of consecutive integers? like python's range/xrange or perl's .. operator. I wrote a little function but I can't help but feel that I've missed an easier way 16:38:55 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:38:58 (loop for i upto 20 collecting i) ? 16:39:20 (0..20, inclusive) 16:39:58 _theHAM: (let ((number 5) (start 3)) (com.informatimago.common-lisp.list:iota number start)) -> (3 4 5 6 7) 16:40:39 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:40:56 (series:scan-range :start 0 :upto 20) 16:41:24 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:41:46 <_theHAM> neat 16:41:55 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:56 <_8david> (alexandria:iota 20) 16:42:33 oh I'm schme_ again. 16:42:35 (list 0 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 18 19 20) 16:42:47 damnit! :) 16:42:47 my slime-indentation is acting funny (ie: not recognising &body statements of macro's, treating them as &vars) does anyone know what I should search for to solve this? 16:44:28 <_theHAM> tic: that one doesn't scale well ;P 16:44:30 madnificent: M-x slime-update-indentation might work 16:44:35 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:04 drewc: sadly, that didn't do the trick 16:45:53 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:03 I think it happened after I updated slime (perhaps some config changed?) 16:47:39 is slime connected to a running lisp, and have you evaluated the definitions? (just checking) 16:48:08 nikodemus`: yes 16:48:56 just fetched the latest cvs, but to no avail 16:50:29 have you bytecompiled your .emacs? 16:51:04 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:51:04 Fade: if it doesn't happen automatically: no 16:51:16 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 16:51:44 check for an elc; if one exists, nothing you do will get picked up. 16:51:48 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 16:52:19 I'm trying to get a site with drakma and only wanted to add post if there actually is something to post. I added (if post `(:method :post :parameters ,post) to the argument list but that doesn't seem to work. Do I need a macro or what? 16:53:39 Fade: no .elc file found 16:53:49 just a guess. ;) 16:54:52 Fade: I don't have the faintest idea what what it could be, so all hints are welcome :) 16:56:02 waaah, it suddenly works (and I have no idea why) 16:56:09 thanks for the hints! 16:56:17 _theHAM, for small values of 20! 16:56:20 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:56:40 -!- srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 16:56:42 tic: LoL 17:00:28 Any help with that parameter list thingy? Is the problem that the if at least returns nil? 17:01:47 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 17:03:07 has anyone tried to use Google's ProtocolBuffers with CL? There seem to be two implementations, but both unfinished. 17:03:38 Good evening. 17:03:54 -!- ejs [n=eugen@78.26.128.252] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:04:21 good evening beach 17:04:51 rread [n=rread@c-76-102-10-71.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:41 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:06:13 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:07:24 tic: did you and the McCLIM manual have a nice walk? 17:07:46 nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs181129218.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:08:23 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 17:09:10 ejs [n=eugen@78.26.128.252] has joined #lisp 17:10:03 -!- Ifur_ is now known as Ifur 17:11:20 cYmen: you could use apply and build the list yourself 17:11:27 if no post, just leave it out 17:11:55 Hun: Yeah, I just had that idea, too. 17:12:20 Just replacing the call to http-request with apply #'apply http-request and some reindenting worked... 17:12:27 Thanks, though! 17:12:39 double apply? that sounds like you're doing something wrong 17:12:59 I've seen it before 17:13:00 yeah...i'm mistyping ;) 17:13:18 or was that an apply/funcall mix 17:13:22 i haven't seen that outside of an eval-like construct 17:13:28 s/#'apply /#'/ 17:14:19 I like that apply is so flexible about parameters...a few parameters, a few lists, a nil here and there..and apply puts them all together nicely :) 17:14:58 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:15:08 http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/log/programming/lisp/applied-lisp 17:15:25 about apply apply 17:18:13 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181129218.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:16 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 17:21:28 -!- andrewy [i=andrewy@209.126.180.153] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:21:46 andrewy [i=andrewy@209.126.180.153] has joined #lisp 17:22:04 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:22:54 -!- wizzo [n=harbl@unaffiliated/wizzomafizzo] has left #lisp 17:23:39 *beach* vanishes to watch a rock video. 17:24:21 -!- vtl [n=user@nat/redhat/x-177853dcaa4e2a20] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:24:57 beach, yes we did! thanks for asking. was good to get some fresh air, and I'm confident the manual did too. 17:28:06 mulligan` [n=user@e177081237.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:28:24 -!- ejs [n=eugen@78.26.128.252] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:30:25 -!- mulligan [n=user@78.52.49.67] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:47 -!- deximer [n=deximer@64.119.142.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:30:59 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:32:01 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:32:43 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:36:01 -!- kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ad6a38afd1e829f7] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 17:38:04 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:41:17 is there an easy way to access nested alists, without doing (cdr (assoc 'foo (cdr (assoc 'bar alist)))) or (let* ((bar (cdr (assoc 'bar alist))) (foo (cdr (assoc 'foo bar)))) ...) all the time? 17:42:11 Use hashes? ;) 17:44:05 i was expecting an answer like that... :P but i get this data from a stream using read, and afaik there's no syntax for hashes like there is (sort of) for alists 17:44:24 you can initialize the hash from a list, and then use the hash. 17:44:28 (take make it easier to use) 17:44:38 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:45:12 that makes sense.. thanks 17:45:59 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:46:40 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:30 koning_r1bot: You could write some function for accessing the alist :) 17:49:15 koning_r1bot: As schme_ says, why not write a path-evaluation function for your nested alists? 17:49:29 koning_r1bot: easy tail-recursive definition... 17:49:40 ejs [n=eugen@78.26.128.252] has joined #lisp 17:51:05 yeah i know.. but i secretly want to do something more complex 17:51:30 koning_r1bot: destructuring-bind, maybe -- depends on how the data is structured 17:51:52 i tried writing a macro to do what i want, but i ended up scratching my head for a couple of days and now i'm trying to decide what i really want to do 17:52:05 d-b + &key is very nice if you have plists 17:52:34 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:52:53 froydnj: but at (safety 0), might not a cast be transformed into a move to a temporary (of different type, so another lvar or something)? 17:53:49 pkhuong: oh, hm, casts do cause problems. 17:54:24 but it's hard to reproduce the code he's getting in the first place 17:55:16 I get similar code, but with a different reg alloc. Might be a problem with the way he compiles the code, again. 18:00:07 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-04765.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:52 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:23 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:02:42 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:33 sykopomp|class [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:05:03 dto: I played around with CLON for a bit. It looks interesting. 18:05:11 josemanuel [n=josemanu@11.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:05:36 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-220-40.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:05:57 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-220-40.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:58 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:07:23 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 18:08:26 -!- mulligan` is now known as mulligan 18:09:47 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:11:03 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:16:00 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:31 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:20:29 Raynes [i=kvirc@AC82737F.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 18:21:40 sykopomp|class: cool. i'll be around a bit later if you want to pick my brain :) or give feedback 18:22:54 dto: alrighty. Honestly, it's interesting, and it's pretty cool to have a message-passing model for it, but something like CLON isn't what I need. I'm gonna keep playing with it and see what I can do with it, though. 18:23:34 dto: and... I finally managed to figure out a nice way to handle methods in the system I'd like. It should've been more obvious. 18:24:15 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:24:50 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:29:36 eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.43.55] has joined #lisp 18:32:09 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:32:21 -!- ejs [n=eugen@78.26.128.252] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:33:00 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:53 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:31 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:39:37 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:41:30 beach, so what's up with *members* in the CLIM example, instead of (members frame)? (in the spirit of keeping data in the frame) 18:41:35 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:42:08 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:43:24 optikalmouse [n=user@bas1-toronto10-1279398373.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:43:34 has anyone used #'ED in SBCL? 18:44:06 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit ["leaving"] 18:44:22 optikalmouse: why do you ask? 18:45:04 stassats: I'm not sure what to do with it :p 18:45:06 I have `ed' call `swank:ed-in-emacs' 18:45:18 I tried (ed) but that does nothing so far 18:45:28 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-138.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45:43 adeht: how did you set that up? 18:45:44 optikalmouse: read docstring for it 18:46:08 george [n=george@189.107.203.157] has joined #lisp 18:46:23 optikalmouse: hey! I see you >:( 18:46:24 (documentation 'ed 'function) 18:47:03 -!- BrianRice-mb_ is now known as BrianRice 18:47:46 sykopomp|class: get out of my emacs!! :p 18:48:22 optikalmouse: I figured out what to do about 'methods', with the stuff I'm planning. 18:48:24 stassats: sweet thanks. but it says that the editor is implementation-dependent 18:48:46 optikalmouse: to be fair, you asked what #'ED does in sbcl ;) 18:48:46 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:49:14 clhs ed 18:49:14 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_ed.htm 18:50:07 sykopomp|class: no, I asked if anyone has used it in SBCL 18:50:17 stassats: it sure looks like they spent weeks debating what to do. Committee sure was busy... 18:50:19 and then I asked how do I set it up so it uses emacs or nano or VIM :p 18:50:49 optikalmouse: and did you then read the docstring of ED in sbcl? 18:51:01 optikalmouse: forget about ED, just use slime 18:51:08 or rlwrap 18:51:22 ozy`: does rlwrap contain EDitor? 18:52:09 stassats: rlwrap gives you readline bindings for programs that don't have them. exactly what it says on the tin 18:52:29 I guess `rlwrap ed` would be pretty snappy 18:54:46 optikalmouse: anyways. I'm gonna go with a fully CLOS-style method... method. I think. Basically, Objects are just objects. They only contain data (as they should). In a separate part of the program are generic functions that can dispatch based on these prototypes, which can be edited separate from the objects, but are also dynamic (not much different from CLOS methods, but their prototype-oriented nature means they'll have to be more 18:54:46 dynamic than class-methods usually are) 18:54:50 but `rlwrap sbcl` plus a nearby gvim is more than enough for my sanity, personally 18:55:09 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:55:15 so I'll have to write some stuff to make inspection/editing/redefinition of existing methods much easier, from userland 18:55:53 jsnell: I didn't finish my coffee so my brain was dead. 18:56:10 jsnell: now that I read it, it goes through the *ED-FUNCTIONS* until it finds something non-nil 18:57:10 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:58:00 <_theHAM> what's the right way to add an item to the end of a list, i.e. like push just at the end? (setf *prog* (append *prog* com)) doesn't necessarily leave me with a list 18:58:06 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:58:21 vsync [n=vsync@220-27.202-68.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:58:43 (setf *prog* (append *prog* (list com))) 18:59:09 but lists aren't good for appending to the end 18:59:12 theHAM: the right way is likely not to use a simple list 18:59:55 <_theHAM> stassats: thanks, I figured that out shortly after I typed the question :( 19:00:14 <_theHAM> hm. I wonder what structure to use 19:00:26 arrays maybe? 19:00:29 append it to the beginning 19:01:03 theHAM: for example some queue-like structure, i.e. having fast access to the tail of the list 19:02:26 theHAM: of course, it depends on what you're trying to do :) 19:02:43 <_theHAM> I'm probably doing it wrong, right now I'm treating it mostly as a random access array (thus - I should use an array!), although I'm sure I could avoid that and just hold a current cons cell and move from there 19:03:00 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:03:22 tic: It is entirely possible that some of the CLIM examples were written before I realized that the best thing to do is to keep application data in the frame. 19:04:21 tic: It is also possible that someone other than me wrote parts of the manual. :) 19:05:28 is that the same usage of possible as with the tooth fairy is possible? 19:06:20 dcrawford: and she wrote parts of the manual? 19:06:35 well, it's possible 19:06:41 -!- eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.43.55] has quit [No route to host] 19:06:46 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:06:52 dcrawford: That's not how it was intended. I was more referring to my totally lousy memory, and that I am entirely capable of having written it, and then having changed my mind as to how things ought to be done. 19:08:39 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 19:08:44 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181129218.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:09:26 -!- sykopomp|class [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:12:18 user____ [n=user@p54925C39.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:12 -!- user____ [n=user@p54925C39.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:13:37 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 19:14:46 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-187-226.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:20 -!- nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs181129218.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:38 dcl [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 19:19:03 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:20:33 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-894d0549666a8189] has joined #lisp 19:20:51 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 19:21:13 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-226-97.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 19:25:04 <_theHAM> hm. ELT: index 0 for #() is out of range <-- I initialized my array with (make-array 10 :initial-element 0 :adjustable t :fill-pointer 0), does the adjustability not apply when accessing? 19:25:51 see push-vector-extend 19:26:52 <_theHAM> vector-push-extend? 19:27:12 err, yes. think/typo, sorry 19:27:17 -!- sctb [n=sctb@mail.arcurve.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:27:19 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:18 sctb [n=sctb@mail.arcurve.com] has joined #lisp 19:28:44 Kaz pasted "Slick dequeue from two Lisp lists." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71592 19:29:03 <_theHAM> it's confusing, with 10 elements why would the 0th be inaccessible? 19:29:25 why are you using the fill-pointer? 19:29:26 _theHAM: fill pointer is set to 0? 19:29:42 if you just want a 10 element vector, you shouldn't have that (and your 0th element will be accessable) 19:30:05 if you do want this space reserved to grow into, why are you surpised? 19:30:46 <_theHAM> what exactly is the point of fill-pointer? it's exclusive to vector-push-extend use? 19:31:38 "fill pointer n. (of a vector) an integer associated with a vector that represents the index above which no elements are active." 19:32:07 <_theHAM> k 19:32:32 (length (make-array 10 :fill-pointer 2)) => 2 19:32:34 beach, alright! was just checking. (it was a static list of members, so it /could/ go there as well without much trouble) 19:32:54 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-187-226.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:33:21 _theHAM: you don't want to touch fill pointer stuff if all you want is a vector or array of a certain length 19:34:16 as far as i understand, _theHAM wants to append stuff to the end 19:34:19 erm, I shouldn't have said array there (although you can make them with make-array) 19:34:41 as fill pointers only make sense for 1d arrays 19:34:50 i.e. vectors 19:35:45 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:35:55 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:36:03 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:36:30 stassats: that's fine. with a fill pointer, the end of the vector isn't the end of the storage 19:36:54 _theHAM: note that vector-push will move your fill pointer up until it runs out of usused elements 19:37:16 -!- Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:37:21 vector-push-extend works the same way, but it will call adjust-arry if it runs out of space 19:37:39 <_theHAM> but I can only use vector-push-extend if I have a fill-pointer 19:37:50 you can only use vector-push then too 19:37:53 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:19 but the behaviour is different if they run out of space (i.e. the fill pointer is = (array-dimension v 0) 19:39:11 but as nikodemus` pointed out, for other operations the vector behaves as if it had the the lenght of the active elements (the ones below the fill pointer) 19:40:04 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:40:33 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.79.42] has joined #lisp 19:40:46 Kaz annotated #71592 with "Examples" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71592#1 19:41:23 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 19:42:14 <_theHAM> that's cool. just takes a bit to learn what does what 19:42:36 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:43:51 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:46:29 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:46:51 Kaz: ooc: why are you pasting? 19:47:01 that, i mean. 19:48:34 Harag1 [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:51:44 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:53:13 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:35 Hi folks! 19:53:48 Any way to randomly select an element from a hash table? 19:54:10 Without collecting all the values first. 19:54:40 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:55:17 -!- phao [n=phao@189.13.96.180] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:55:48 <_3b> collect all the keys first instead? :p 19:56:15 Kaz annotated #71592 with "More sophisticated version" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71592#2 19:56:30 i suppose you could do this via with-hash-table-iterator and hash-table-count 19:56:32 <_3b> or more seriously, pick random # < size of hash, iterate over that many elements with maphash or loop 19:56:34 but you're still walking it 19:56:56 _3b's suggestion is a higher-level version of same 19:57:01 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:02 <_3b> still O(N) time, but would be O(1) space instead of O(N) at least 19:57:10 jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:57:13 right 19:57:35 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:58:01 thanks much. 19:58:03 <_3b> or maybe look for some implementation specific way to get at an underlying vector 19:58:15 yeah, but i doubt you'll do better portably 19:58:29 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:40 Kaz: you have an application where a dll is too heavy? 19:59:16 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-249-086.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:19 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:26 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:33 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs181129218.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:59:34 'hello 20:00:09 -!- Raynes [i=kvirc@AC82737F.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:00:24 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:00:25 _3b: went with the iterator. done and done. 20:01:36 another solution: don't use hash-table for that 20:01:53 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:04:20 stassats: yea, but the data is already there. Hash table of colors and was just needing a simple (random-color) for fun. 20:04:52 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:05:03 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-241-218.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 20:07:16 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:07:38 you'll have to cache the values. 20:07:41 eh, keys. 20:07:55 (or well, either.) 20:09:47 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:12:08 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 20:13:24 -!- eliasm [n=eliasm@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:13:37 eliasm [n=eliasm@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:19:41 ether0 [n=ether0@0.sub-75-203-12.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 20:20:15 sykopomp: there are examples of clon usage at http://github.com/dto/rlx 20:22:03 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:15 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit ["Eric Raymond can code in emacs using one finger."] 20:28:03 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:29:14 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:00 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:32:49 -!- ether0 [n=ether0@0.sub-75-203-12.myvzw.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:33:15 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:41:13 -!- bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:30 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:43:30 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-49.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:44:54 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-241-218.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:27 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a9b-136.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:52 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a9b-161.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:47:21 -!- rpg [n=rpg@75.146.46.193] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:48:22 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 20:51:35 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 20:53:18 pdenno [n=pdenno@129.6.72.17] has joined #lisp 20:54:45 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 20:55:35 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:55:56 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@114-198-13-51.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 20:56:04 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:59:09 a-s [n=user@92.80.72.93] has joined #lisp 20:59:10 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:59:38 /home/dto/e/logs/#rlx!dto@irc.freenode.net:6667.txt:24669: dto: i'm actually in a lotta ways all about realtime [14:11] 20:59:43 oops 20:59:46 wrong channel :( 21:01:39 bfein [n=bfein@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:57 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 21:02:48 ...how do I add something to an array? 21:03:28 I'm not sure what you mean by that question. 21:03:32 clhs vector-push-extend 21:03:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_vec_ps.htm 21:03:34 clhs adjust-array 21:03:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_adjust.htm 21:03:59 Those are two possible answers, but possibly you don't want an array at all. Some other languages call hash tables "arrays" (for no good reason). 21:05:04 didn't give it much thought, only used array because that's what dropped out of cl-ppcre:scan 21:05:19 chandler: only evil languages 21:05:25 (only one I can think of is php) 21:05:30 rsynnott, Perl? 21:06:02 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [] 21:06:25 rsynnott: I have seen at least one other equally poorly-designed 'scripting' language do this, but its name escapes me at the moment. 21:06:53 <_3b> does lua do that too? 21:07:07 tic, no 21:10:12 <_3b> hmm, languages that like doing the org.foo.bar naming convention should use a syntax that allows the same identifiers as DNS does :/ 21:12:03 (actually, php arrays/hashes aren't quite either one or the other; they will pretend to be arrays or hash tables depending on how you access them :) ) 21:12:20 _3b: Lua calls them all "tables" to indicate that arrays and hashes are interchangeable as far as it's concerned 21:12:24 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:12:25 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:12:52 (and in fact, depending on the current contents, a table might be represented by either an array or a hash 21:12:53 ) 21:13:26 ths_ [n=ths@X46d5.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 21:14:00 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 21:14:07 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF4E5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 21:14:08 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 21:15:23 phao [n=phao@201.58.156.248] has joined #lisp 21:15:44 Would it be redundant to make another lisp? 21:15:52 Quadrescence: not necessarily 21:16:04 clojure, for example, is a new lisp, but interesting nonetheless 21:16:06 <_3b> it would be redundant to make the same lisp 21:16:23 rpg- [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:16:26 however, Arc and newLisp are uninteresting and unimaginatively crap, respectively 21:16:41 there seems to be an extremely high failure rate when it ocmes to making new lisps :) 21:16:43 <_3b> better implementations, new targets, new features, etc are less redundant 21:17:27 Quadrescence: what do you want to do? 21:18:04 Quadrescence: if you make a new lisp, please use "def" instead of something longer. the latter would just be redundant. 21:18:04 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:18 chandler: adjust-array works only adjustable arrays? I know it sounds stupid...but does it? 21:18:23 ozy`: bad! 21:18:32 rsynnott: NO U 21:18:38 rsynnott: Make a smaller, very portable, and expressive lisp. 21:18:39 cYmen: yep, only on adjustable arrays 21:18:47 it will give you a nasty error, otherwise 21:19:05 ok...so what do I do on other arrays? make a new one? is there a fast and pretty solution? 21:19:07 Not that I don't like current lisps (Common Lisp), but it would be a fun learning experience too. 21:19:19 rsynnott: really? I got no error and no effect so maybe I did something wrong.. 21:19:27 cYmen: you could certainly make a new one with :initial-contents 21:19:36 but there may be a way to make it adjustable in-place 21:19:59 Quadrescence: expressive how exactly? monads up the wazoo? 21:20:05 lispm_ [n=joswig@e177123138.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:20:18 'Back to the Future: Lisp as a Base for a Statistical Computing System' 21:20:21 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.79.42] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:20:52 ozy`: Ahah, no. Expressive in terms of: easy to get ideas to code, and easy to (literally) type. 21:21:06 Quadrescence: you're not thinking of losing the brackets, are you? 21:21:09 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:21:26 http://books.google.com/books?id=8Cf16JkKz30C&pg=PA21 21:21:29 That sounds like a "wouldn't it be nice if" list, not a "these are specific things that could be addressed in a new, incompatible Lisp" list 21:21:45 excellent 'propaganda' for Common Lis 21:21:46 p 21:21:50 rsynnott: I was thinking about maybe using [] instead of () just for the sake of not hitting the shift key (because, most computers have that as a shift) 21:22:14 Quadrescence, bad assumption. 21:22:20 *dlowe* would like to see less talk, more code. 21:22:22 Quadrescence: That is easily solved with a reader hack. 21:22:23 Quadrescence: ironically, IIRC that's why they went from [ ] to ( ) in the first place 21:22:32 <_3b> Quadrescence: make a lisp that assumes an intelligent editor, so things like that can be user configurable instead of baked into the language :) 21:22:36 *rsynnott* suspects that if it is that much trouble to people, they will remap their keyboards rather than learn a new funny-looking language 21:23:09 pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:23:19 rsynnott: I'm fine with (). And one could easily change their keyboard or Lisp itself to use [] or whatnot 21:23:19 (also, a variety of weird text-entry devices don't HAVE [] or {} easily accessible, though this may or may not be a problem 21:23:23 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-226-97.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:23:25 Quadrescence, see xmodmap(1) 21:23:27 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:24:08 (I've been thinking about writing a lisp for more than 3 minutes, so you all know. I've been thinking for a while -- a few weeks maybe) 21:24:12 Wow, that's hilarious. 21:24:21 (article) 21:24:29 p_l: You there? 21:24:45 Quadrescence, so start hacking on it. best way to find out about any problems is to actually hit them. 21:25:08 What happened to the guy that worked on a Lisp that didn't use parens? Something about being paren-dyslectic or whatever? 21:25:21 tic: ISWIM? 21:25:31 tic: I agree. But it's nice to hear opinions of other lispers. 21:25:45 One of my tiny dreams is having much of R re-implemented as a lisp library. I should maybe organize the chunks of stats code that I have lying around and see what they make. 21:25:51 ozy`, no. it was a from a recent Lisp newbie just a few months ago. 21:25:57 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:26:02 tic: there've been quite a few of those 21:26:07 rsynnott, the latest then? 21:26:07 -!- pdenno [n=pdenno@129.6.72.17] has left #lisp 21:26:10 weren't later Dylans paren-free? 21:26:26 rsynnott: yeah, Dylan had an Algol syntax 21:26:31 Dylan uses an infix syntax in its current incarnation. 21:26:33 Like I said, a Lisp newbie a few month ago. But nevermind. 21:26:40 it's a shame that it never took off, really 21:26:43 Bed time. Ta ta. 21:26:44 There is a SRFI for an indentation-based syntax for Scheme, but it mostly exists to be mocked. 21:26:56 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177157113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:26:57 it seems a nicer language than most of the current dominant 'scripting' ones 21:26:59 Would you guys want a paren-less lisp? Almost like RPL? 21:27:11 *_3b* wouldn't 21:27:13 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:27:26 there's actually a frightening edit mode for emacs which replaces parens with indentation and highlighting, I think 21:27:37 http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-49/srfi-49.html 21:27:46 (And I am not writing it because anyone would want a new lisp -- I was more asking "would one prefer no parens in a lisp") 21:27:49 i rarely type parenthesis. 21:27:54 my editor handles that detail. 21:27:56 Quadrescence: I'd like to see a language that uses -slightly- less punctuation than Python, but that aside... Lisp isn't really Lisp without the parens 21:28:16 I can't imagine how writing macros would work without the parens 21:28:19 ozy`: Less punctuation than python? 21:28:26 the s-exp syntax is pretty fundamental to code-as-data, i think. 21:28:27 *_3b* wants a less user friendly but more regular syntax for files, and smart editor on top of that 21:28:38 rsynnott: There are multiple answers to that question. See Factor and Dylan. 21:28:39 Quadrescence: yep. too many colons and stuff all over the place 21:28:58 esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:29:13 ozy`: Ah. Yeah. My plan would to have the character set used be minimal and use characters most often not accessed by a meta key 21:29:22 i've not seen many with less puncuation than python. perhaps ruby, when written without-a-care for explicitness. 21:29:27 the used character-set* 21:29:33 in ruby most punctuation is optional. 21:29:40 but the tendency is to use it for clarity. 21:29:42 perl anyone? :D 21:30:10 <_theHAM> yay perl 21:30:34 Quadrescence: I think you are barking up the wrong tree. If you have significant new ideas for semantics, making syntactic changes at the same time might not be so bad (in the sense that people may overlook the syntactic difference to get the new semantics). If you are just futzing with syntax, I doubt many people will be excited by Yet Another Language. 21:30:54 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:31:41 <_3b> Quadrescence: j > perl :) 21:31:45 the code one sees in a linguage must be beautifull over time, not just at first sight (that last one is what ruby is) 21:31:49 yeah, do what the BitC people did... semantics first, and then play with syntax 21:31:56 chandler: I (hope) to implement new semantics too. I agree. Yet Another Language with different syntax is useless, and almost insulting to those who've worked hard on whatever you're mimicking semantically. 21:32:20 *cYmen* scratches his head.. 21:32:21 Quadrescence: What new semantics are you interested in implementing? 21:32:31 you can surely make most syntax changtes that you want to by messing aabout with reader macros 21:32:49 Quadrescence: so, once more. when you say "expressive"... you mean what exactly? REBOL? 21:32:52 so that's what happens when you know lisp well enough? you go search for yet another language? I was hoping that might stop. 21:32:58 Quadrescence: I confess that this appears to me to be the standard "ohmigosh, why are all these ugly bits here, let's clean this all up!" phase that many people who learn Common Lisp go through. 21:33:06 madnificent: you mean as opposed to, say a = (1..10).reject { true if (s = !s) .. (s = !s) } 21:33:14 Quadrescence: Usually those people either wind up in #scheme, or learn to live with Common Lisp (warts and all). 21:33:15 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:33:18 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-241-218.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 21:33:22 chandler: It's not that at all. I actually think lisp is rather beautiful (is this bad?) 21:33:36 funny, I never went through that phase, but then I went through the scheme phase first. 21:33:38 bougyman: what the heck does that mean? 21:33:41 bougyman: what the hell is that? 21:33:54 it results in [1, 4, 7, 10] 21:34:23 what language is it? 21:34:26 iterates through the set of 1-10 and the flip-flop range condition maintains state in a completely unintuitive manner. 21:34:27 bougyman: I meanth that I seem to like lisp syntax better over time. Even though I didn't at all like it when I started it 21:34:29 *rsynnott* wants to know so can avoid :) 21:34:33 rsynnott: haha. that's ruby :p 21:34:38 ah 21:34:45 never bothered to learn that one 21:35:08 yeah ruby seemed cooled at first dead slow though 21:35:09 that doesn't make sense in ruby, either 21:35:12 i learned ruby cause it was better-than-perl (mid-late 90s) for scripting. 21:35:36 dlowe: that's not a range, it's a flip-flop operator when used in a conditional. 21:35:39 Chrononaut: Common Lisp is very powerful, and probably any language can be "emulated" in lisp (someone better not say "any language can be emulated in any language") 21:35:45 err, chandler * 21:35:57 rsynnott: it's fairly nice.. it used to be my preferred language 21:35:58 bougyman: I've known ruby for a long time 21:36:06 well, certainly any language can be compiled into lisp 21:36:11 bougyman: what's a flipflop operator?? 21:36:17 tcr [n=tcr@p4FD3D28C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:17 but you could indeed say the same about most other languages 21:36:20 Quadrescence: I would say that, because there are constructs that are very difficult to "emulate" in Common Lisp (such as CALL-WITH-CURRENT-CONTINUATION & friends) 21:36:23 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 21:36:25 dlowe: as I seem to remember it, it isn't _that_ old 21:36:33 The flip-flop is turned on by the first expression?s truth and turned off by the second expression?s truth. 21:36:46 madnificent: it started in early 90s, but I learned it around 98 21:36:57 bougyman: xor? 21:37:01 chandler: well then you can emulate any language in Scheme :p 21:37:27 ozy`: scheme has no defined capabilities for threading like erlang does 21:37:29 dlowe: you beat me to it then :) 21:37:43 madnificent: was a step on my road to lisp :) 21:37:47 well then... then.... 21:37:50 dlowe: mine too! 21:37:53 dlowe: Erlang does not have defined capabilities for threading, either - though that is certainly one possible implementation of Erlang processes. 21:37:53 ozy`: it doesn't end. 21:37:58 a friend who shared my perl hate and also knew japanese got me a head start before ruby took off in the states. 21:37:58 *ozy`* explodes without warning, killing everyone in the channel 21:38:01 dlowe: the last step, even 21:38:16 dlowe: Erlang-like actors can certainly be written in Scheme. 21:38:18 madnificent: I went through scheme first. 21:38:21 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.79.42] has joined #lisp 21:38:50 chandler: no doubt. I would think that feather-weight processes are integral to the proper functioning of the Erlang, though 21:39:47 there seem to be a lot of STM options in lisp. any opinions wrt which is most production-ready? 21:39:47 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:58 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 21:40:04 dlowe: I don't think that Erlang processes are really more feather-weight than an actors implementation using call/cc. On the contrary, the Erlang implementation suffers because it must copy every message exchanged between processes. 21:40:27 dlowe: as you may have somewhat the same background-knowledge: Is it worth the hassle of learning yet another language? Or would it be better to just let it exist (and perhaps read something when I encounter scheme-code). If there are no new briliant concepts, I should probably focus on CL 21:41:21 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 21:41:46 madnificent: CL should have enough depth to occupy you for a few years, at least. 21:42:52 dlowe: erlang uses a sort of cooperative multiprocessing, so it should in principle be possible to implement in most things 21:43:48 Guest53748: Now I am. 21:43:55 (the current erlang VMs also create one system thread per logical processor, plus I think one or two to handle IO, but this is new (introduced effectively to show off erlang on Ultrasparc T1) and not essential to the language 21:43:59 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 21:44:00 chandler: there's always EtoS, with a shared heap and continuations. 21:46:32 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 21:46:52 pkhuong: Sure. But I rather like making fun of BEAM. 21:47:07 erc [n=user@c-e3e3e055.31-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:47:32 rsynnott: I don't think it gives an error if an array is not adjustable I think it just does nothing 21:48:58 bah...I'm reading the clhs chapters now >_< 21:49:44 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:50:16 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:21 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:51:36 chandler: (I needed someone to say this to so I don't monologue) Ultimately, I want to take some of the ideas from LISP, some from Common Lisp in particular, and also some Haskell-like constructs, and make it into a tiny, portable, and efficient language. Something easy to get going (err, like BASIC?), and small enough to "master" (unlike C++), and I completely lost my train of thought. 21:52:04 Quadrescence: that exists. is called clojure. 21:52:29 btw what's the current general opinion on clojure? still everybody thinking it's awesome? :) 21:52:49 Quadrescence: There are an awful lot of Scheme implementations out there. Are you sure that there isn't one which has at least some of what you're looking for already? 21:52:58 cYmen: I never thought it was in the first place. 21:53:22 i've been looking at clojore for it's concurrency model. 21:53:32 Hun: I'm not too fond of the JVM. 21:53:40 Hun: I dunno about clojure being small, as such 21:53:42 still trying to decide on Haskell STM vs clojure vs cl-stm vs erlang 21:53:58 ozy`: it's pretty small, when you don't look at the java bootstrap-stuff 21:53:59 cYmen: I still think it's rather impressive 21:54:19 chandler: I'm not unsatisfied with Common Lisp. Maybe it would just be something "fun" for me to do./ 21:54:19 and I quite like its concurrency model 21:54:24 And learn about. 21:54:25 Quadrescence: why? it runs fine on my small atmel. actually, i think clojure is the only lisp i can get to run there without a lot of hacking 21:54:28 bougyman: for what purpose? 21:54:44 rsynnott: a high-volume low-latency service. 21:54:54 specifically, and auto-dialer for call centers. 21:55:02 Hun: Atmel, as in, an 8-bit microcontroller? o_O? 21:55:03 er an auto-dialer. 21:55:24 bougyman: Erlang movie 21:55:25 cl-stm may not be great, as most cls have pretty hefty threads 21:55:32 Quadrescence: as in 32bit microcontroller 21:55:37 bougyman: erm, aren't those illegal just about everywhere? 21:55:39 jvm can run there out of the box 21:55:45 bougyman: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKfKtXYLG78 21:55:49 rsynnott: nossir, they are regulated. 21:56:11 rsynnott: our dialers are registered in all 50 states, puerto rico, and D.C. 21:56:22 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 21:56:30 Greetings! 21:56:31 problem is, commercial dialers suck, and cost an arm and a leg. 21:56:40 erlang has the advantage that it can scale remarkably easily over multiple machines 21:56:47 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:56:56 it's such a simple device, but they make them complex and all break down on the (incompetence) of the threading models used. 21:56:58 (though it looks like rhickey is looking into that for clojure) 21:57:07 the open source ones simply run a bunch of processes communicating via tcp. 21:57:09 bougyman: ah, maybe it's more a european thing 21:57:22 pretty sure all forms of autodialer are illegal in this country 21:57:56 bougyman: given that it presumably doesn't need to DO much, you could possibly use a single-threaded approach 21:58:03 rsynnott: in the clojure talks he says something about a traveling salesman program scaling across 600 CPUs 21:58:06 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 21:58:08 (with select/epoll/whatever) 21:58:15 rsynnott: too much concurrence for a strictly event-driven model. 21:58:19 with 7% total CPU usage going to GC 21:58:20 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:58:28 rsynnott: cannot afford any delay. 21:58:30 GC? 21:58:40 damn, sorry 21:58:41 madnificent: garbage collection 21:58:41 nvm 21:58:48 ozy`: yep; clojure doesn't have a well-defined intermachine comms model at the moment, though 21:59:00 (those 600 cpus are in one AZUL SMP machine) 22:00:00 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:25 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:01:47 In SBCL, (describe 'array) informs me that "There are 3 mehtods specialized for this class." How do I determine what those methods are? 22:02:16 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 22:02:23 -!- erc [n=user@c-e3e3e055.31-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has left #lisp 22:05:41 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 22:07:49 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:08:23 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:08:45 rm -f build/classes/org/armedbear/lisp/top-level.abcl 22:08:45 rm -f build/classes/org/armedbear/lisp/top-level*.cls 22:08:45 ikvmc -compressresources -recurse:build/classes/ -out:ABCL.Net.dll 22:08:45 ikvmc -r:ABCL.Net.dll -main:org.armedbear.lisp.Main -out:abcl.exe 22:09:09 I could use a little help...I get an array with found substrings from cl-ppcre and I would like to add an element. 22:09:17 I tried: (make-array 5 :initial-contents questdata :initial-element (/ (parse-integer (aref questdata 1)) (parse-integer (aref questdata 3)))) 22:09:25 shit sorry, i was going to paist a URL http://common-lisp.net and ask if it had websvn 22:09:41 But that doesn't work because :initial-contents need to be correct size and you can't specify together with initial-element 22:09:55 dmiles_afk: http://common-lisp.net/websvn 22:10:57 rsynnott, thanks :) 22:11:33 actually I think my mistake was a different one 22:11:44 I was looping over a list an changing elements with setf...does that even work? 22:12:09 ah, wherein you can see various phantom projects which never committed any code 22:12:15 like a css generator! 22:15:09 How do I change elements of a list in a loop? Do I have to collect them in a new list return it and setf that? 22:15:41 tell (map to return a new list. 22:16:30 <_3b> cYmen: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_f.htm 22:16:48 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:18:23 interesting 22:20:15 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:20:43 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:21:18 how does (setf list (map #'(lambdafoo) list)) sound? 22:22:32 (lambdafoo)? 22:22:44 setf? 22:22:54 map? :) 22:23:11 cYmen: mapcar exists for lists, and (lambda (x) ...) doesn't need #' 22:23:14 sound? 22:23:23 -!- fihi09` [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:23:34 cYmen: if you are looping with say, for el in (some list), el is a local variable so setf of that won't change the thing in your list. You can directly work with the conses though, no problem 22:23:49 however, unless you have a good reason not to cons up a new lists, see above mappings :) 22:24:04 <_3b> (map-into list #'... list) ? 22:24:43 so many possibilities :) 22:24:58 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:25:01 cYmen: let's not get started with how we can iterate through something in different ways ;) 22:25:56 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-241-218.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 22:26:39 sykopomp: lambda doesn't need #'? that's everywhere in pcl... 22:27:08 cYmen: nope, doesn't need it. No one's stopping you from using it, though. 22:27:34 why does gigamonkey use it then? :) 22:27:35 `lambda' is a macro that expands into `(function (lambda ...))' 22:27:37 doesn't #'(lambda ...) wind up better-optimized in most implementations? 22:27:37 consistency? 22:27:40 aha 22:28:15 ozy`: not that I know, no. 22:28:25 a pox upon sharpquote-lambda practitioners 22:28:32 <_3b> (lambda ...) and #'(lambda ...) expand to the same thing, just one in the reader, one at macroexpansion time 22:28:42 hefner: a pox on both their houses 22:29:00 ozy`: shouldn't, not 22:29:03 *no 22:29:29 anyway the whole lisp-2 thing bothers me in general but I'd rather be constantly reminded where I'm passing functions and where I'm passing not-functions 22:29:34 before CL was standardized it didn't have a `lambda' macro, so people used the explicit version 22:29:59 Norvig wrote in PAIP that if CL (at the time) had a `lambda' macro, he'd use it 22:30:17 What did he use instead? 22:30:21 #'lambda 22:30:36 -!- rpg- [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 22:30:37 wait. Wasn't PAIP written -after- the spec was out?.... 22:30:41 ozy`: lisp-2 is annoying, but less annoying than lisp-1 ;) 22:30:49 er, lisp-n, i guess, really 22:31:00 lisp-n? lisp-awesome! 22:31:10 scheme = lisp-not-enough 22:31:14 and scheme is more of a lisp-n-1 22:31:15 cl is what, lisp-7 22:31:17 sykopomp: in 1992.. CL was standardized in 1994 22:31:24 adeht: hah 22:31:24 salex: I agree that for any n, lisp-n is more annoying than all other lisps combined 22:31:41 lisp-omega 22:31:57 how is that not contractictory? 22:32:18 the combination of Lisps reduces the annoyance :) 22:32:23 hefner: it shaves everyone except itself 22:32:24 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.87.197] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:32:25 hefner, the amount of annoyance is not to be underestimated 22:32:48 thus a Common Lisp to rule them all! 22:33:31 and with that rule, the lisps were joined in Common 22:33:35 no jokes about binding, please 22:34:37 and let* them be cons 22:34:49 s/them/there/ 22:35:45 and with this cons I thee wed? 22:37:14 Lisp got pros and cons 22:37:25 s/I thee/I progn thee/ 22:38:06 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@11.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:45:40 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:47:49 -!- ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["absquatulating"] 22:48:11 Raynes [n=Raynes@AC82DE7D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:50:31 LivingCorpse [i=admin@dyn13-202.wireless.vcsu.edu] has joined #lisp 22:52:45 -!- Raynes [n=Raynes@AC82DE7D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Client Quit] 22:53:05 Raynes [i=kvirc@AC82DE7D.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:06 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:56:07 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.195.61] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:56:52 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:23 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 22:58:46 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:28 Lisp has many more cons than pros 23:02:47 lispm_: pros is undefined in sbcl -_- 23:02:55 (mapcar #'play '(drum drum cymbal)) 23:03:00 unbound, even 23:03:34 <_3b> (defun pros (x) (values (car x) (cdr x)) ? 23:04:04 _3b: just gave my lisp pros! 23:04:55 tsk 23:05:01 *sykopomp* adds that do .sbclrc 23:05:23 do? re! 23:05:32 s/do/to/ 23:05:34 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 23:07:13 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:08:27 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:10:53 -!- Harag1 [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:11:18 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 23:12:11 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.79.42] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:12:31 -!- sctb [n=sctb@mail.arcurve.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:14:56 barburgallery [n=barburga@93-172-94-117.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 23:16:04 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:16:17 -!- barburgallery [n=barburga@93-172-94-117.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Client Quit] 23:16:34 oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-94-117.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 23:16:35 ltbarcly_ [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:35 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:16:43 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:12 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-94-117.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Client Quit] 23:17:14 oudeis [n=oudeis@93-172-94-117.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 23:17:18 -!- Raynes [i=kvirc@AC82DE7D.ipt.aol.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:18:14 Raynes [i=kvirc@AC8276C9.ipt.aol.com] has joined #lisp 23:19:31 -!- ltbarcly_ is now known as ltbarcly 23:19:54 nikodemus: ping 23:22:39 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:26:38 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:43 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:58 tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.160.104] has joined #lisp 23:34:43 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:36:33 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:49 rpg [n=rpg@71-220-94-191.mpls.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:12 Are the proceedings of the last ILC on line anywhere? 23:39:19 -!- tripwyre [n=sathya@117.193.160.104] has quit [] 23:40:38 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:40:57 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:23 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:43:16 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:20 ozy` [n=vt920@pool-71-184-104-97.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:29 p_l: Well, if you're still around .... 23:45:10 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:45:45 -!- tcr [n=tcr@p4FD3D28C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:46:28 yes? 23:46:39 If you haven't seen it, there is a partial protobuf implementation on github: http://github.com/brown/protobuf/tree/master 23:47:42 rpg: buy here http://www.lispworks.com/products/ilc-goodies.html 23:48:05 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:08 Guest53748: Thanks 23:48:33 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:49:01 With luck it will see some more development .... 23:49:31 Well, I don't really need definition file parser 23:51:44 so this one might just fit 23:52:17 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:54:17 You can't get very far without code to create classes, unless you are just interested in the low level encoding details. 23:54:36 in the beginning I'm prepared to do it by myself 23:54:52 the thing is, that on the other side would be PHP 23:55:59 So long as both sides use the same encoding you should be fine. 23:56:11 why is the name of that filty language on this holy channel? 23:56:24 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:57:22 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:57:42 i have a macro that mentions one of its arguments more than once, so it gets evaluated more than once after expansion. how do i make sure it evaluates before the macro gets its hands on it? 23:57:45 PHilthy 23:58:12 wgl: thanks 23:58:37 madnificent: I'm trying to get a project where communication with PHP is very important 23:59:00 koning_r1bot: let-binding, I'll msg it, so I don't need to open a pastie 23:59:57 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-75ec70d5.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp