00:00:18 <_3b> fusss: nope, returns the result of the test if there are no other forms in the clause 00:00:39 that's just obscure and ugly :-P 00:00:51 <_3b> that might be true :) 00:01:13 zrak: CL also has it's own MEMBER, are you safely shaddowing that? 00:01:23 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:02:01 i don't think you can redefine it willy nilly 00:02:46 but i don't want to use member from CL 00:02:55 i wan't to understand how it works 00:03:31 zrak: aha! well, let's just sit down with Erran Gat's "Common Lisp Packages for Idiots" and ponder what we have to do 00:03:36 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:03:42 *_3b* wishes flash's reflection support was a bit nicer :( 00:03:48 zrak: you will have to call it something else then, just not "member" 00:04:03 i know about that 00:04:15 i changed that to be more readable on this channel 00:04:15 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:04:21 on my computer i use other name 00:04:28 ok 00:04:47 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:05:41 <_3b> describeType shows me 2 of about 20 methods for String 00:06:35 <_3b> oops, 0 of 20... those were properties, not methods :( 00:06:50 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:06:58 zrak: you just needed a T cond clause and one closing parenthesis 00:06:58 <_3b> wonder if they are in some odd namespace or something 00:07:11 fusss annotated #71458 with "zrak, mira aqui" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71458#1 00:07:18 ok 00:07:35 Is there a way (using SBCL on the command line) to get just the output of the program without all the header stuff that SBCL prints? 00:07:57 fusss: but why is that t 00:08:00 something like sbcl --eval '(print "hello world")' 00:08:05 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:08:10 sgware: --noinform 00:08:12 what's the function of the true in the recursive call 00:08:20 Thanks! 00:08:25 i mean the role 00:09:04 zrak: it could have been any other true value. In CL, NIL is the only "false" member of the boolean type, all others are positive. but it's canonical to use T as a general symbol of truth 00:09:09 <_3b> zrak: each clause in the COND contains a test, and code to execute when the test is true... T is just a test that is always true 00:09:26 in this case T means "otherwise" 00:09:44 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:11:55 Err... sorry for all the newbie questions, but is it possible to execute multiple lines? sbcl --eval '(print "hello")' works fine, but sbcl --eval '(print "hello") (quit)' gives an error. 00:12:29 sgware: it is not a question of multiple lines, but multiple forms 00:12:39 sgware: what about --eval '(progn ((print "hello") (quit)))'? 00:12:41 so write it as one form, or specify two --eval 00:12:45 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:28 -!- zrak [n=bobo@77.28.5.173] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:14:47 Ahh, thank you again 00:14:59 p_l: That did not work, but thank you anyway. 00:15:28 -!- matley [n=matley@83.224.161.218] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:17:53 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:18:20 p_l: try --eval '(progn (print "hello") (quit))' 00:18:40 sgware: that was meant for you. 00:18:50 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 00:19:27 sgware: or --eval '(print "hello")' --eval '(quit)' 00:21:25 Hmm... what do I do when there is a double quote and a single quote in the code that need to be eval'd? For example, --eval '(print (format t "~A~%" (plan 'gripper2)))' dies because of the single quote. I've tried escaping it with a backslash, but no luck 00:21:54 (This is on linux command line) 00:22:17 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 00:22:20 sgware: at that point I would start questioning my motivation to do that ;) 00:22:41 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-061-035.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:43 Yeah, I suppose I should just put this into a file. 00:25:09 sgware: I guess you can use --eval "(format t \"~A~%\" 'foo)" though 00:26:18 Will the backslash work for double quotes? It doesn't seem to work for single quotes 00:27:05 sgware: I suppose that's the main difference between double and single quotes in bash. 00:27:15 Ahh ok 00:29:23 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-92-213.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 00:30:24 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@170.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 00:32:09 -!- sgware [n=sgware@adsl-074-167-254-190.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [] 00:34:21 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-043-182.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:22 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:14 <3 pascal costanza 00:37:19 the man needs to be sent cookies 00:38:39 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit ["moving to new stumpwm"] 00:39:05 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 00:39:32 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 00:40:17 why? 00:40:41 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:41:08 closer-mop must be THAT good 00:41:32 I like reading his papers :) 00:41:46 found one on static vs dynamic typing that's pretty interesting 00:41:52 here I thought you'd solved your object system woes by signing on as context-l's first user 00:42:02 first user? 00:42:05 -!- nunb [n=user@94.160.5.209] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:07 drewc already uses it for lisp on lines 00:42:26 I did read the context-l paper, though. Once I understand the concepts more, I might start using it, as well. 00:42:53 indeed, i've been a user since the day it was released. 00:44:00 how does it feel to be an early adopter of cutting-edge language design stuff? 00:44:12 waldofll [n=waldofll@c-75-74-217-138.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:44:13 well, more bleeding edge probably 00:48:24 fy__ [n=chatzill@mail.lakehaven.org] has joined #lisp 00:48:25 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:48:31 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-43-112.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:48:42 fine, second user then. 00:48:59 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:30 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:51:33 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:54:12 hefner: plus attila and his crew 00:54:31 well, they use everything. 00:54:40 I was joking, to start with. 00:55:14 very brave of them, though. nice to hear it actually works in production. 00:55:39 esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 00:55:47 durka [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has joined #lisp 00:56:59 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 00:57:17 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 00:59:16 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:59:25 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:25 who's going to the lispnyc holiday party?? 01:01:29 -!- Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:03:17 <_3b> yay, figured out how to get to the profiler stuff in flash, wonder if it will provide more useful reflection stuff 01:03:33 ebzzry [n=rmm@115.147.99.198] has joined #lisp 01:05:38 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 01:06:48 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:52 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 01:07:16 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:47 <_3b> hmm, guess not :( 01:10:22 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:11:01 -!- mattrepl- [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:11:12 tic: are you there? 01:14:56 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 01:15:22 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-97.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 01:16:46 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:40 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.143.39] has joined #lisp 01:19:17 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:21:54 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:22:41 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:22:56 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 01:28:13 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:28:36 Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 01:28:45 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:29:34 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:30:19 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:31:18 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:43 tc-rucho1 [n=tc-rucho@190.191.162.100] has joined #lisp 01:32:45 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a94-094.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:32:52 crod [n=cmell@cb8a94-094.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:33:41 hello, sorry for asking this without doing an intensive web search first, but my wm just got screwed up, it's running, and I want to get a backtrace of the running threads. I'm currently in a virtual terminal (those you access with C-M-Fx) trying to get some info using links, and it's a pain in the a$$. Could please anyone tell me how to get descent backtraces of running threads? 01:33:56 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:35:37 I have a swank connection to the wm 01:35:59 tc-rucho1: you're talking about stumpwm? 01:36:06 yes 01:36:14 did you try asking in #stumpwm? 01:36:23 the channel is quiet as hell 01:36:30 they're really helpful there (might be a little bit before you get a reply) 01:36:45 I don't think getting thrads backtraces is a stumpwm specific topic 01:36:51 I never imagined hell as quiet. If it is, I'll be quite disappointed. 01:37:14 hefner: who knows, there are some people that can't live without noise arround 01:37:24 hefner: total silence would kill 'em 01:37:29 particularly on IRC. 01:37:36 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:38 sykopomp: do you know how could I get a descent backtrace of a thread? 01:38:02 tc-rucho1: no, I don't :-\ Last I checked, stumpwm wasn't supposed to be threaded. 01:38:58 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 01:39:16 sykopomp: I don't know if it's always the case with swank, but when I connect with SLIME to SBCL I get at least 4 threads with only REPL running... 01:39:18 in stumpwm prefix key is not responding, mouse on apps isn't working either, stumpwm is not freezed, it responds, I have a working swank connection, if I do (progn (sleep 5) (message "test")) then switch to X it shows the message after a couple of seconds, so it's not freezed, it's a bug, and I need a backtrace 01:39:39 p_l: that's slime. 01:40:18 sykopomp: ok 01:40:27 tc-rucho1: you really are better off asking sabetts about this. 01:40:43 *p_l* will have to add it manually then to his bot 01:40:44 yeah, but sabetts it's away 01:40:58 (dolist (thread (list-all-threads)) (interrupt-thread thread (lambda () (backtrace))) 01:41:07 (assuming sbcl) 01:41:32 possibly with some sb-thread: and sb-debug: added to strategic places 01:41:40 jsnell: handy, that 01:42:08 sykopomp: the problem is that I don't want to kill X and screw what I've been doing without saving, this was not supposed to happen. So I'm trying to figure out how the fuck did this happen and how to fix it, need a backtrace for sabetts, and well, I'll keep messing till I get pissed and end up killing X or solve this 01:42:20 the first posibility more likely to happen 01:42:20 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:42:43 X is sort of unstable. I don't like keeping anything important in X 01:42:59 I keep my emacs in a screen session, and emacsclient -c to it when in X 01:43:18 sykopomp: the thing is that this is not an X problem, I've been using this build for a year now, never had a problem using fluxbox 01:43:43 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0DA9E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:43:53 this is either a clx bug or a stumpwm bug 01:44:02 it's most likely a clx thing, in my experience 01:44:15 are you using a clx release, or clx from VC? 01:44:16 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.143.39] has left #lisp 01:44:17 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:44:33 I stopped having problems with stump after I started using clx and stump from VC 01:44:34 :P 01:44:42 VC? 01:44:49 *tc-rucho1* wonders what VC is 01:44:58 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:44:58 version control 01:45:02 ah 01:45:03 svn/cvs/git/darcs 01:45:07 you could have said cvs or git 01:45:11 anyway 01:45:33 I'm using sbcl 1.0.22 and stumpwm 0.9.5 01:45:47 these aren't old pieces of junk afaik 01:45:56 anyway 01:46:10 ths_ [n=ths@X4d9d.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:46:14 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:48:05 tc-rucho1: I believe stumpwm 0.9.5 is actually pretty old and outdated 01:48:05 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 01:48:06 iirc 01:48:19 it's usually recommended you get stump from git, at least 01:48:25 and I would recommend the same for clx 01:48:37 I thought this was the _stable_ version 01:48:50 feels pretty stable to me 01:48:56 hasn't crashed on me. Ever. 01:48:57 -!- Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:49:02 at least not since I started using it from VC :P 01:49:10 crashed regularly when I was using the releases 01:49:13 yeah, I will try git stumpwm but now, I need to fix this 01:49:23 hmm 01:49:58 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:49:59 sykopomp: 0.9.5 is just one month old 01:50:21 fe[nl]ix: oh. I didn't know they'd actually *released* something 01:50:37 it might be clx, then 01:51:17 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [] 01:51:21 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 01:51:36 btw fe[nl]ix, the stumpwm ebuild needs some check, it didn't put the stumpwm binary in any path locations and did not add stumpish script either 01:51:44 I had to do it manually 01:52:32 ok 01:54:38 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:55:07 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 01:57:30 -!- ths [n=ths@X6277.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:39 -!- pervonisse [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:58:12 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 01:58:23 mmorrow [n=link@c-98-193-60-208.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:59:22 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.181.237] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:05:55 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a94-094.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:08:40 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:10:01 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:10:19 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:11:11 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:23 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-13d7d4ebe8a1ba3d] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:16:10 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-20-126.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 02:16:10 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:16:46 lillin [n=lillin@211.201.172.41] has joined #lisp 02:17:09 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:18:23 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:22 crod [n=cmell@cb8a5b-250.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:21:47 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 02:21:47 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:25:41 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:44 -!- tc-rucho1 [n=tc-rucho@190.191.162.100] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 02:29:21 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:31:25 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:34:27 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:34:27 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:36:01 jsnell: Still awake? 02:37:09 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:37:28 unfortunately yes 02:37:52 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:00 tcr pasted "for jsnell, trying to figure out stepping with slime" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71470 02:40:00 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:40:16 jsnell: I'm trying to figure out how stepping works. I evaluated (foo 10) at the REPL, what now? 02:40:31 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:40:49 after years of recalcitrance, clem and ch-image should work with openmcl, clisp and possibly even ecl. 02:40:50 what's foo? 02:40:56 jsnell: See the paste 02:41:19 oops, /me blind 02:41:34 you need (debug 3) 02:42:03 oh 02:42:04 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:43:20 so `s' is STEP-CONTINUE, `o' is STEP-OUT, `n' is STEP-NEXT, but is `p' (slime-up) really STEP-INTO? 02:44:05 's' shouldn't be continue, I think it should be step-into 02:44:22 (sldb-up got nothing to do with stepping) 02:45:53 Ok, I seem to get it 02:46:27 Not that hard, once you know that you need (debug 3) :) 02:46:53 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:47:28 slyrus_: did your software work on the x8632 port of ccl? 02:47:41 rme, indeed! 02:47:50 ok, good. 02:47:53 thanks again! 02:49:35 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:49:51 I sometimes wonder if anyone uses it except for me. 02:50:19 no worries, world domination is on the horizon 02:50:22 benny [n=benny@i577A20CE.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:50:34 We'd love to use it -- actually we got our software running (for some definition of `running') on darwinx8664 today 02:51:13 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:51:20 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:43 EC2 is affordable on linuxx8632, which is a big factor 02:55:16 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:55:31 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:56 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 02:57:36 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has joined #lisp 02:57:47 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:59:42 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0FA21.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:19 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:22 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:04:43 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has left #lisp 03:05:02 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:06:32 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:04 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:10:43 -!- pkhuong_ is now known as pkhuong 03:11:15 juturnas [n=juturnas@76-14-113-53.rk.wavecable.com] has joined #lisp 03:14:35 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:15 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 03:22:59 hey. How would you guys deal with a massive amount of memory (way more than ram+swap), in an app that would preferably load parts of that data into memory selectively? 03:24:28 sykopomp: it depends how you're storing the data 03:24:44 sykopomp: if it's a big old tree, you could selectively load chunks of it into memory. 03:25:48 mogunus: oh? How would the tree be chucked into the hard drive? Just something like cl-store? 03:25:48 -!- eliasm [n=eliasm@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:25:59 eliasm [n=eliasm@CPE001e9002348e-CM001225d8ab30.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:26:12 not sure how the tree would be removed from main memory like that :-\ 03:27:30 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a6f-184.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:27:41 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a5b-250.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:27:52 -!- Riastrad1 is now known as Riastradh 03:28:01 delete the references to it? 03:28:13 I think this would be ab elaboration of the mmap-d vector trick 03:28:35 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:29:03 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 03:32:36 -!- durka [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:33:09 durka [n=durka@d126.mertza.swarthmore.edu] has joined #lisp 03:33:33 if the data isn't lisp objects, you're completely free to manage it manually 03:33:55 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-71-138-131-4.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:06 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:36:27 hefner: you mean simply by loading files, and then deleting references to them? 03:37:02 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska182223.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:37:51 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:42:02 pervonisse [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has joined #lisp 03:45:15 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:46:05 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska182223.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:47:38 It's amazing how much more beatiful scheme is, compared to common lisp 03:48:03 pervonisse: Are you trolling? 03:48:11 no doubt. 03:48:20 nope, although I'm a lisp newbie 03:49:08 for example, which is more beatiful? (empty? l) or (endp l) 03:49:13 sykopomp: no, as that puts you at the mercy of the garbage collector, which will no doubt explode in your face sooner or later 03:49:48 hefner: how do you manage loading blobs into memory selectively, then? 03:50:06 sykopomp: but depending on what you're doing, either a pool of lisp objects (done with the objects? release them to the pool), or just dealing with binary data directly (done with the data? overwrite it in place with new data) 03:50:07 sykopomp: manually, just as in C (aka the real world). 03:50:32 where the latter case is an (unsigned-byte 32) array or such 03:51:21 pervonisse: (null list), or even just list. Since cl uses nil/anything-else as false/true, you don't need stuff like (empty? l). Also, since we have multiple workspaces, you can go ahead and use 'list' instead of 'l' 03:51:42 workspaces? 03:52:14 sykopomp: so, are you imagining your mud-thing is going to need tens of gigabytes of state? :) 03:52:17 hefner: I guess I don't really understand how the garbage collector is supposed to work. Setting a slot in an array to something else automatically removes whatever memory was in that place beforehand?... 03:52:37 sykopomp: no, not at all. 03:52:41 hefner: nah, I'm playing around with graphical stuff, and wondering how really really large objects might be dealt with. 03:53:25 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:56:06 I long for a real application that gives me an excuse to deal with such problems. Hell, I long for a real CL application at all. 03:56:16 jjong [n=chatzill@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 03:57:51 pkhuong: I honestly didn't know you -could- manage CL's memory manually :-\ I mean, considering SBCL does it, it makes sense, but I've never run into any code that does it. 03:57:56 -!- bpt_ is now known as bpt 04:02:08 -!- jjong [n=chatzill@203.246.179.177] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 04:02:40 jjong [n=chatzill@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 04:05:11 sykopomp: I think you still have the wrong end of the stick, unless you count things like dynamic-extent 04:05:35 oh noes... cl-jpeg doesn't build on clisp. 04:05:36 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:12 sykopomp: why not make your mud server serve up something like secondlife? 04:07:27 dmiles: >:( 04:07:46 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:57 hefner: I guess I really have no idea how to manually manage memory in lisp. 04:08:11 we are working on a Lisp bot that runs in secondlife: http://opencog.org/wiki/OpenSim_for_OpenCog 04:08:45 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:08:51 sykopomp, right now i am working on porting ABCL to .NEt so we can replace DotLisp with ABCL 04:09:08 since secondlife is all in C# 04:09:12 dmiles: my mud-thing is really really not meant to do anything graphical, by design and purpose. 04:10:19 ah yeah, by design and purpose in this.. a person needs to log into the server with a secondlife client if they care about graphics.. its all networking stff 04:10:56 dmiles: I already have a simple tcp server that handles binary data ;-\ 04:11:04 so for exmaple when you run our bot.. nothings graphical.. secondlife server is not greaphical eigther 04:11:09 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 04:11:45 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:12:01 hm 04:12:22 I mean, I guess you could still use sykosomatic for some kind of graphical thing, provided I ever have a proper object system. 04:12:56 *hefner* wonders if there was ever a machine that customarily interpreted pointers in memory as relative offsets from wherever the pointer was stored 04:12:58 *dmiles* vistining http://sykosomatic.org/ now 04:13:19 dmiles: there's really nothing useful right now. There won't be for a while :P 04:13:22 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:13:48 sykopomp: In case of ECL, if you tweak the boehm gc, you might make it swap in userspace 04:13:52 really, the project is something for me to learn lisp (and general programming stuff) with. It's served its purpose quite well, but it feels more and more like vaporware the more I work on it :) 04:14:03 hefner: corewar ;) 04:14:33 sykopomp, well at least theres a bit of code in sykosomatic 04:15:30 wow. clisp has a rather small most-positive-fixnum. 04:15:37 pkhuong: makes sense. I was just thinking it'd be handy for loading/mapping structured data into memory, in the same way that pc-relative addressing is handy for code. 04:15:44 sykopomp, parse-string is pretty cool 04:15:48 -!- jjong [n=chatzill@203.246.179.177] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 04:15:52 dmiles: about 2500 SLOC. It has a server, a class-based object hierarchy, a parser for the pseudo-language players use, and a binder and command generator for it. Also has a pretty nice event system for dispatching immediate or delayed stuff. 04:16:23 all of it is pretty hackish right now, although I've rewritten most of it at least once 04:16:48 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:17:06 hefner: better data density for pointerful objects in the common case too. 04:17:37 oh, true. 04:17:37 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 04:17:44 hefner: You could do that manually 04:17:50 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:18:03 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 04:18:06 though on some archs you really don't want to do that, even if you can 04:18:11 hefner: i believe some JVM (Jalapeno?) was modified to do that. 04:18:13 sykopomp: for the object system you could just start out with loading [.mud/.obj/.roo] files? 04:18:18 p_l: you could, but where's the fun in that? I can do anything manually, if I'm willing to do things manually. 04:18:43 sykopomp, at least bootstap worlds from external formats 04:18:57 dmiles: I'm this | | close to having the system be file-based, but it's so ugly :( 04:19:10 it's much nicer and faster and stable to have objects work with a database 04:19:35 but I'm trying as best I can to not use the usual file-based model (which I think is awful) 04:19:38 p_l: although I'm curious what you mean about certain architectures.. 04:19:54 Well, manually in the sense that instead of using special instructions, you would do something like: load r0 ; load r1 ; add r0 r1 r0; 04:20:26 -!- mmorrow [n=link@c-98-193-60-208.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:20:46 hefner: Some stuff really doesn't like to use unaligned data... to the point of not being able to read memory in smaller quantities than it's full word 04:21:50 as an extreme example, take Alpha. 04:22:26 p_l: manually unpacking might still be worth it for the improved density. 04:22:29 pkhuong: you said earlier that I would have to do manual management, as in C. How can I do this? :-\ 04:22:48 without BWX extensions, it will _not_ load anything shorter than 64-bit 04:22:54 sykopomp: allocate buffers, reuse them, or malloc/free. 04:23:09 pkhuong: in lisp?... 04:23:24 p_l: sure, sure. I initially imagined aligned data and normal machine pointers, such that you could pass it to any old dumb machine code with no knowledge of your scheme, but pkhoung reminds me that pointer compression could be fun too. 04:23:26 sykopomp: why not? Use an object pool, or what not. 04:23:33 kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:49 pkhuong: I have no idea what an object pool is, or how I would allocate buffers or use malloc/free... 04:24:24 pkhuong: If you have zero-added-cost for part-of-word loading, it's not a problem. But when you find something that really cares about memory alignment and data length.... performance tends to drop. like a rock 04:24:31 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:24:51 you usually allocate buffers with make-array. An object pool is simply a pool of object from which you draw resources instead of allocating them, and to which you manually move objects instead of letting them die. As for malloc/free, you tend to use the FFI for that. 04:26:10 p_l: depends on how much the savings in space wastage is worth VS the additional complexity of extracting subwords manually. 04:27:25 -!- beach` is now known as beach 04:27:40 Good morning. 04:27:43 pkhuong: Well, it depends on how good you (or your memory manager) is at data alignment. It tends to hit you much harder than simply having to extract subwords 04:27:47 mornin', beach! 04:27:55 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:28:04 p_l: alignment is completely orthogonal to the issue. 04:30:15 pkhuong: But it tends to bite in that situation (like, someone forgot that unless you put a padding or keep some data in first 7 bytes, using only one byte as pointer offset won't help you that much) 04:30:37 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 04:31:37 p_l: as soon as you have more than 1 pointer, it works. Also, you'd likely go for something like 32 bit offsets on a 64b arch. 04:31:44 though I guess part of my fixation on that is effect of reading Alpha arch. manuals once... 04:32:36 4 GB ought to be enough for anyone. 04:35:34 hefner: Maybe as an offset ;-) 04:36:15 just a few weeks before I was advising my father on new computer... one of the main requirements set by him was the capability to address >4G of memory in one app :) 04:38:14 hm. What about dereferencing the blob, and forcing a GC?... 04:39:16 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 04:39:17 well, it's slow, but clisp works too for me now. 04:39:18 sykopomp: if you really have a *lot* of (pointerful) data, a tracing GC isn't really your friend. 04:39:31 p_l: I'm sure we could live just fine with 32-bit pointers (or offsets, howeer you want to do it) for normal objects, and large arrays off elsewhere. 04:40:46 morning beach 04:41:02 hefner: Well, this one app had to kind of work on >4G arrays. HPC like big amounts of memory. 04:41:19 p_l: HPC usually doesn't need a lot of pointers, though. 04:41:32 p_l: that's fine, so long as you don't need 8 GB of linked lists 04:42:11 pkhuong: True. Though I don't know how it specified connections between objects in the array 04:42:16 pkhuong: I'm probably talking more about, I would guess, 200-500mb at a time, maybe up to 2GB in some cases. 04:43:30 p_l: pointer compression is often considered for pointerful regular object-oriented programs, not number crunching in Fortran. 04:45:09 sykopomp: skip a couple beers, buy a stick of ram. 04:45:39 pkhuong: I guess giant graphs are rather adverse to pointer compression, yes 04:46:15 also, s/a couple beers/month's food supply/ <--- feels more like it, sometimes.... 04:46:38 pkhuong: I'm guessing more in terms of how you would write a massive application such as a major game or something, that requires live loading/unloading of pretty bulky graphical blobs. 04:47:20 p_l: adverse? That's exactly when you'd expect the technique to pay off. 04:47:45 sykopomp: you store them in an array.. 04:48:13 hefner: yeah, that seems to be the way to do it. I was just giving context on my somewhat random question :-\ 04:48:51 pkhuong: I guess it's something that needs a real, heavy duty benchmark. The thing is, the faster it runs, the better. The graph represents a geometry with physical forces. 04:49:07 -!- jrockway_ is now known as jrockway 04:49:33 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:51:59 and yeah, a lot of that code is probably written in FORTRAN... 04:52:30 -!- ebil [n=ebil@ip70-174-136-104.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:52:52 p_l: it also probably doesn't use any pointer. 04:53:06 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:53:37 #!+#.(cl:if (cl:= sb!vm::n-machine-word-bits 64) '(and) '(or)) <-- cute 04:53:41 pkhuong: possible - I don't think I'd like to know the insides of it. probably rather hairy 04:54:06 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:24 hefner: I think that might be the only way I've ever seen #+#. used. 04:55:38 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:17 lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has joined #lisp 04:56:48 -!- jsoftw [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:58:35 sykopomp: FWIW, Naughty Dog said that one of the biggest advantages they got from using Lisp was being able to stream in data while the game was running, so that they could create a large world without load times. 05:00:00 ahaas: I would love to know how they did that. 05:00:24 sykopomp: me too 05:00:50 maybe i should e-mail the Gavin guy and beg him for pointers 05:02:41 sykopomp: http://www.franz.com/success/customer_apps/animation_graphics/naughtydog.lhtml 05:03:30 dmiles: Yes, I've heard about and read about GOAL. I even found a little snippet of code for it. 05:03:54 and the PS2 only had 32MB of memory?! 05:04:17 what I'm trying to figure out is -how- they managed 3D objects. 05:05:07 sykopomp: it has nothing to do with lisp, and maybe even little to do with your question (I forget), but that article on dungeon keep xach linked a while back is a good read 05:05:13 *keeper 05:05:19 sykopomp: ALISTS? 05:05:24 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:06:40 dmiles: how would alists help you efficiently manage a large amount of memory getting swapped in and out? 05:08:30 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:08:38 sykopomp: oh in the case of that they can proly only load ALISTS of object that fit /in a visiblity scope or an active running script method on them.. the 3D rendering system .. requests agaist a blackboard of objects.. they only load whatever objects they have to and only when its time to load it 05:08:41 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 05:09:20 sykopomp: the inovation of lisp is that no prelinking or c classes need to be loaded.. all their proprientary reflection comes for free 05:10:06 it seems like it'd be handy - in a trivial, perhaps relevant only at safety 0 sort of way - if lowtags were arranged such that you could speculatively add as fixnums without danger of tag bits in the case of a non-fixnum number carrying and disappearing 05:10:51 sykopomp: if i understand correctly, most of these games would go thru a boostlike process on their map of a runtime state 05:11:01 OnEdge1 [n=OnEdge@adsl-75-16-231-205.dsl.kntpin.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:11:07 hefner: masking the tag bits away (assuming fixnum have 0 for tags) isn't particularly expensive. 05:11:22 sykopomp: the boostlike process for the c/c++ version.. lisp wouldnt need this premature optimization 05:12:15 pkhuong: I'm pondering ways you can do an addition and then test overflow (sort of) and type at the same time (which makes less sense, the more I think about it) 05:12:46 sykopomp: the pre-mature optimization that they think all game objects need to be some c++ object . MoverType, ShaderEffectObject, SkinThing etc 05:13:23 -!- OnEdge1 [n=OnEdge@adsl-75-16-231-205.dsl.kntpin.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 05:13:37 hefner: i think you need a `hole' in your tag patterns for that to be possible. 05:14:18 hrm... ecl doesn't like clem. perhaps a new ecl build from the trunk/head will. 05:15:30 sykopomp: in my experiece with such a system (Doom3) .. i left the C/C++ versions of the objects present.. but then had to do a d3-from-lisp and a d3-to-lisp.. so many times once can delete away property lists out of these objects and replace the get/sets of all these to wrap a call to lisp instead 05:16:02 dmiles: wait, doom3? What? 05:16:33 sykopomp: i made an API in and out of doom 05:16:53 Tordek_ [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 05:17:09 pkhuong: yeah, but if you're willing to only do it when safety is less important, you can fill that hole so long as it can never encode a number. but this is moot, because my bogus ideas for combining the test (test tmp, #x80000FFF or the like) won't work. 05:17:25 dmiles: I see. So you figured out a way to do the loading/unloading of resources, with lisp? I'm sort of confused by what you're talking about, I'm not entirely following 05:18:16 sykopomp: well what i did was make some generic preigned objects.. that were bulding blocks .. collections of objects with behaviours 05:18:28 hefner: yeah, cmovcc / test / jcc doesn't seem as sexy. 05:18:54 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1CB09.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:16 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1C572.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:19:18 sykopomp: made generic things like walls and floors and doors hat can open close 05:19:40 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:20:00 sykopomp: then i made the lisp program arrange those things according to a new type of map creation system all in lisp 05:21:09 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:44 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:26:28 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-3-97.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:26:38 man. Why does emacs' lisp-mode completely freak out when it runs into #| |# comments? 05:26:41 it's pretty annoying 05:29:29 sykopomp: if i would have kept working on it and going more and more of the c/c++ code would have been replaced by a lisp counterpart 05:29:53 sykopomp: but the idea was to have something playable on day one 05:29:59 heh 05:30:27 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 05:31:09 sykopomp: it got to a point a lisp programmer could make doom into whatever they wanted it to be 05:32:06 sykopomp: my goal was to make it not a 1st person shooter anymore.. but just a game engine 05:33:16 -!- kejsaren_ [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:33:43 sykopomp: but the final goal was to make Cyc (AI process) design the world based on preopostional Logic rules 05:34:26 hmm... any ecls experts around? 05:34:47 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:56 -!- waldofll [n=waldofll@c-75-74-217-138.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit ["The computer fell asleep"] 05:35:12 sykopomp: but for sanity test i went back to text.. since i better be able to make it at least design a text world that made sense 05:37:08 sykopomp: sanity: i mean to figure out what i meant in wanting something to make sense.. then of course hit performance walls in predicate calclulus.. trying to fix those.. then one day back to a game engine design to display the logic world again 05:37:31 but i havent made it that far yet 05:37:50 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:46 so what happens when one has an engine that can do whatever they want? what do they want it to do? 05:38:55 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44F3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:20 something approaching warp 10 05:39:22 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 05:39:33 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 05:40:21 i want a propositinal resolution - expert system - theorem prover that can go warp 10.. then i want to attach a game engine to it 05:40:57 i want it to deduce all the object properties 05:42:44 I see 05:43:33 I don't. 05:44:07 but i bet even all the UIish stuff of the NaugthyDog engine is inplemented in the C/C++ and all the methods are called by lisp 05:44:24 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:44:36 and all the objects the game engine loads are wrappers arround Conses 05:44:47 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:44:53 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.2"] 05:44:55 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 05:44:58 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-92-213.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:45:00 dmiles: NaughtyDog doesn't use GOAL anymore. 05:45:24 sykopomp: what did they replace with? 05:45:58 C++ 05:46:31 they were bought out by sony, and story goes sony freaked out when they found out they used lisp. So everything is done in C++ now, so they can share their code 05:46:38 plus, the maintainer of GOAL left the company 05:46:46 sykopomp: as far as the toplevel control constructs i dont see why they dont have it all defined in lisp 05:47:13 or in a schemelike impl 05:47:57 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:48:02 Sony wanted code sharing. Nuff said. 05:48:16 C++ is god in the AAA-game industry. Not gonna change for a while. 05:48:21 ah, well now they can share their lisp with us? 05:49:24 that would be nice, but I don't think they will. Maybe someone should ask them. 05:54:54 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45BA6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:56:31 arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 05:56:45 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:01:10 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:01:58 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@239.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:02:03 i think they went back and forth with it, sykopomp .. when they got bought by sony they went c++ for a while, then back to goal/something-lispy again 06:02:16 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@239.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 06:02:31 ..maybe they've gone back to c++ yet again now though.. i don't know 06:03:10 *lnostdal* is struggeling with shared libraries and save-lisp-and-die 06:03:35 heh. It would be nice if they made GOAL public. Not like their competitors would drool over it, after all. 06:04:01 findinglisp [n=user@c-24-6-200-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:20 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:11:03 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 06:12:25 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:14:24 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:14:47 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:17:25 i do not know where or how i am to debug this stuff .. hm .. using iolib in a custom sbcl core dump i get "debugger invoked on a OSICAT-POSIX:EFAULT in thread #: #" .. but i do not seem to end up in the debugger 06:20:29 oh, thread ... never mind me :/ 06:21:37 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 06:23:50 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.249.228] has joined #lisp 06:24:02 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 06:33:17 S1100100` [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 06:33:17 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 06:34:33 can anybody explain what FORMATTER is good for? 06:34:59 i have read the clhs page for it, and I understand what it does, but I have no idea why I'd want to do it 06:35:22 -!- beach` is now known as beach 06:35:37 <_3b> compiling format strings so it doesn't have to parse them at runtime? 06:36:04 okay, i'll buy that. so it only does the compilation once? 06:36:14 sorta like compiling a regex? 06:37:51 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:38:25 <_3b> probably 06:39:20 <_3b> also i guess you could use it to pass to other functions like map, instead of making a lambda 06:40:06 <_3b> looks like it doesn't evaluate the string, so that makes it less useful for the first idea 06:40:24 yea, that's the sort of thing i kept thinking of, too, but it seemed like a real stretch and not much value given that lambda is so simple. doesn't justify having a special macro in clhs if that's all it's good for, imo 06:41:43 <_3b> possibly more useful if you can't rely on compiler macros to do it for you 06:42:03 ?? not sure i understand 06:42:35 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.249.228] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:42:47 <_3b> most modern lisps probably compile the format string for you when you pass a constant format string to FORMAT 06:43:14 <_3b> if it didn't do that, you might want to do (format t (formatter "...") ...) 06:44:43 yea, maybe. still seems like a stretch. there's probably a long-lost story about it somewhere. ;-) 06:45:04 mmorrow [n=link@c-98-193-60-208.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:08 just found it tonight when reading up on format for something else and wondered what the story was 06:45:14 <_3b> yeah, probably not too common these days 06:49:27 fooquux_ [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:04 -!- fooquux_ [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:52:38 fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has joined #lisp 06:52:56 -!- pervonisse [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:56:18 -!- fooquux [n=fooquux@udp265832uds.hawaiiantel.net] has left #lisp 07:00:29 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 07:00:40 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 07:01:07 -!- lemoinem_ is now known as lemoinem 07:09:07 athos [n=philipp@p54B8662D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:06 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:13:34 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 07:16:15 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit [Client Quit] 07:20:25 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 07:22:17 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:24:21 good morning 07:24:22 Harag pasted "Sequence of evaluation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71480 07:24:31 morning ppl 07:26:23 Harag, use with-html-out... in test-further also 07:26:50 then (:div (str (test-further)) ..the return-value from it is a string 07:27:34 lnostdal: I tried that ...but let me try again I tried so many things I got myself confused 07:28:51 (who (:div (str (funcall (lambda () (who (:b "test-further"))))))) => "
test-further
" 07:28:58 ..kinda like that 07:29:03 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 07:30:02 ..who is just a shortcut to with-html-output-to-string btw. 07:32:36 -!- findinglisp [n=user@c-24-6-200-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 07:34:47 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:04 -!- yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has quit ["  ."] 07:38:48 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-078-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:01 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 07:40:36 Harag annotated #71480 with "eish" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71480#1 07:41:52 lnostdal: If I add "who" to the test-further I dont get any more errors but I dont get the output from test-further either 07:44:54 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 07:45:14 I have this vague suspiscion that that "test me thrice" is written to *standard-out* before anything else and it just gets ignored by the browser...thus my question about sequence of evaluation 07:45:15 Harag: (str (test-further)) and no (str ..) in (str "test me twice") is needed 07:45:44 findinglisp [n=user@c-24-6-200-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:42 eish...many thanx 07:46:48 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:46:49 that was a stupid error on my side 07:46:53 _3b: yup, just found the original paper by Waters about pretty printing. The FORMATTER macro was designed to pre-compile constant strings so they don't have to be interpeted at runtime 07:48:17 it's here if you're interested: http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/527352.html 07:50:28 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:50:39 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:10 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:55:02 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:05 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 07:55:17 stassats: doing it that way makes everything in test-further a string...if i change the str in test further to a :div for instance it still works...I am I right to say that test-further is evaluated first and because it is a valid html string the page works? 07:55:36 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 07:56:10 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.10] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:57:50 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 07:59:56 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.10] has joined #lisp 08:00:06 Harag: i don't fully understand your question, your function returns string, and (str (function)) inserts it 08:02:26 in CL-BENCH i am not finding a way to set minimum runs one all tests.. some tests are running only once.. i want them all to run at least 10 times 08:03:05 does it try to predict the number of runs you'll need? 08:03:28 stassats: yes I understand that the test-further function returns a string and that str then just parses it in 08:03:55 dmiles: no, the run numbers are hardcoded for values that were sensible for ancient hardware 08:04:36 jsnell, ah i guess i have to turn them all up by hand 08:04:37 what I have an issue with is that I am creating a "html" (result of test further) string and then inserting it with str 08:04:40 good morning ... did someone try mudballs ? 08:05:44 I would have expected that test further is evaluated inline with the rest of the body code 08:06:03 Harag annotated #71480 with "...more" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71480#2 08:06:56 if you look at that last paste I would have thought that ( could drop the str around the (test-further) in test-page 08:07:30 -!- findinglisp [n=user@c-24-6-200-166.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 08:07:34 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:08:02 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 08:09:36 Guest68920 [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:48 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:10:30 Harag: str doesn't parse it, it inserts it as it is, you cannot drop str, otherwise (test-further) wouldn't be evaluated 08:11:10 ok then it is my understanding of str that is lacking 08:14:04 -!- Guest68920 [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:14:53 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:15:04 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:15:50 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:17 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:18:10 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:19:32 stassats: I was thiking of str as used to create a "string" (something like a span) but it is actually the same as write-string which is used internaly to cludge the html together.. 08:20:06 thanx for the help everybody 08:20:52 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:11 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:23:31 is there some kind of return call that can break me out of an inner loop and all the way out of whatever the main function is? 08:24:37 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:25:01 sykopomp: return-from 08:25:23 stassats: that doesn't work if I'm in an inner function though, it seems... 08:25:44 recursive function? 08:26:29 no, I have one function with a loop, and within that loop, a second function can get called, with its own loop. I'd like to break out of that second loop in a way that brings me all the way out of whatever the main function is 08:27:28 throw/catch? 08:27:55 oooh. That may work. 08:27:56 thanks 08:30:47 good morning/evening. 08:30:55 tic: good niht 08:30:57 night* 08:31:11 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 08:33:46 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 08:34:02 eevar2 [n=jalla@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:06 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 08:34:13 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:34:27 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:34:59 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:35:36 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:35:49 -!- S1100100` is now known as S11001001 08:36:29 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-29-1.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 08:36:41 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 08:36:57 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:39:22 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:39:34 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:41:32 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 08:41:42 srcerer_ [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 08:42:30 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 08:45:21 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:49 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:27 hi kejsaren. new here to #lisp? 08:53:47 bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:07 #w 08:54:45 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 08:54:46 -!- bdowning_ [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:56:12 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 08:56:58 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 08:57:46 schme, my friend! have you checked out mudballs? 08:57:50 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:58:00 tic: What on earth is mudballs? 08:58:04 tic: is it good? 08:58:09 schme, get on with the program! 08:58:12 schme: planetlisp talked about it. 08:58:14 tic: and hello to you too. 08:58:30 tic: i m testing it ... 08:58:31 splittist [n=splittis@129-28.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 08:58:32 matimago, I can't really say I'm qualified to say anything about it. Easy enough to download and use. 08:58:33 morning 08:58:35 YooHoo, YooHoo/2U2 08:58:38 tic: works fine for me 08:58:39 anyone remember that? 08:58:39 matimago: Oh I have not checked planet lisp, I have been busy at the hospital :) 08:58:44 *schme* looks at planet lisp 08:58:55 l_a_m, I hit a condition on sbcl. 08:59:00 schme, hospital, what's up? 08:59:36 tic: which ? 08:59:38 matimago, the search function is nice, too. What I haven't understood yet is how the search function works -- if you have to download all systems you want to use, or if it looks on the intarweb. (I haven't read the source) 08:59:47 l_a_m, can't remember, and alas it's not left in my backlog. maybe I can try again. 09:00:00 tic: Some doped up guy hit me across the face with a bottle and landed a few kicks to my head. So I'm a bit stitched up, and supposedly he'll have to pay some money for all this too. 09:00:32 "lisp is like a ball of mud" haha :) 09:00:33 schme, ! :( I'm glad you're up on IRC again. That could've have ended badly. 09:00:47 Does the "big ball of mud" paper discuss Lisp? 09:00:59 tic: i think the search function works with file mudballs.lisp, which defined all available mudballs 09:01:15 l_a_m, which is regenerated based on mb:upgrade, then? 09:01:21 i think 09:01:28 tic: don't read this part 09:01:49 tic: Yes. It could have ended very badly. I was riding my bike home from work and out of nowhere BAM! But luckily someone was out walking a dog and interruptode the whole thing. 09:01:51 schme: we geeks aren't to go outside! 09:01:58 madnificent: hahaha :) 09:02:25 tic pasted "booting mudballs." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71481 09:02:40 The police caught him though. He had been going around being fucked in the head for hours. 09:02:41 schme, crazy! 09:02:48 I don't get this mudballs. What is it good for? 09:02:51 schme, so he was really on some substance? 09:02:54 madnificent: well, at least not beyond wifi coverage. 09:03:01 schme, better than asdf is the plan. 09:03:07 schme, see http://mudballs.com 09:03:09 -!- kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:03:54 tic: The police said he claimed he was drunk. But after I fell off my bike and had backed away a bit, I looked him straight in the eye yelling "what do you want? what do you want?". And he sure seemed more than drunk to me. 09:03:55 tic: strange i haven't got any error with booting .... 09:03:59 oh ok. 09:04:01 Now I get it. How nice :) 09:04:05 l_a_m, sbcl-1.0.18. maybe that's hwy. 09:04:12 matimago: :P 09:04:34 schme, *nod* weird. 09:04:38 tic: He answered "money" after some time. Which is great 'cause now he is going down both for "grov misshandel" and "försök till rån". 09:04:55 schme, quite excellent! (if you can say that :( ) 09:05:07 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 09:05:35 Yeah.. The police even said this was a good case, usually they don't catch the guy. 09:05:43 schme: and maybe sad, for the chances of him owning something got desperately low 09:05:59 He had tripped some old lady too. running around yelling all night. 09:06:15 Well yes, I feel bad for the guy. He has fucked up his life now. 09:06:52 I need to try this mudball out :) 09:07:01 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:01 oh ya, sorry about the OT :) 09:07:39 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:07:50 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:08:36 there, Mudballs on reddit. 09:08:55 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 09:09:52 is there an easy way to set a breakpoint in slime? Or must I throw an error before I can inspect stuff? 09:11:00 brill [n=brill@0x57386060.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:11:40 clhs break 09:11:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_break.htm 09:13:31 bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:13:35 Weird, I can't find the definition of 'upgrade' in mudballs 09:13:52 thank you stassats 09:13:57 -!- bdowning_ [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:16:51 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:02 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Operation timed out] 09:19:33 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:19:43 bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:30 Good morning. 09:23:41 morning spiaggia 09:24:35 moin spiaggia 09:25:02 *tic* tries to figure out the mudball upgrade mechanism 09:25:59 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:26:02 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-078-160.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:26:10 spiaggia, had a chance to look at Mudballs yet? 09:26:20 morning, spiaggia 09:27:01 would you happen to have copies of your papers about the gsharp line-break algorithm and the stealth mixins? 09:29:46 another stupid question: when I run (let ((foo "foo!")) (cerror "debug hook" 'simple-error)) , what must I enter in the debugger to print the variable foo? I tried i (to operate on 0) and entered (print foo), but that doesn't work. 09:31:19 mudball will become the new asdf? 09:31:24 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 09:31:51 Xof: The stealth-mixin paper is on John Hamer's web site. 09:32:50 and in the ASWEC proceedings, I presume. 09:34:00 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:34:01 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:19 Tordek_ [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 09:35:03 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:38:14 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:40:24 Xof: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/linebreak.ps 09:40:50 thanks! 09:41:44 Xof: did you find the other one? 09:42:08 tic: I have absolutely no memory of Mudballs. Have we discussed it in the past? 09:42:29 spiaggia, I doubt it, as it is something new and fresh. See Planet Lisp or http://mudballs.com 09:42:47 spiaggia, it was regarding your earlier thought on collecting a bunch of Lisp systems. That seems to have happened... 09:43:27 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-226-243.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:43:49 zach beane? 09:45:11 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 09:47:01 spiaggia: no 09:47:12 hmm, now I can't find it either. 09:51:15 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:51:55 tic: Ah, nice! I'll have to look into that. (I also need to remember to read planet.lisp). 09:52:58 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 09:56:32 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C339.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:24 -!- bdowning_ [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:01:33 bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:46 -!- ths [n=ths@X4d9d.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:03:21 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 10:04:52 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-226-243.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:05:56 jgracin [n=jgracin@93-141-100-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 10:07:38 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:08:36 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:08:49 Beket [n=Beket@87.203.221.200] has joined #lisp 10:09:12 Hi people! Does clisp play well with parallel programming? 10:10:31 Beket: does clisp have threads? 10:10:49 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2EBCF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:10:50 Beket: I assume you know that CLISP is an implementation of the Common Lisp language, and that `CL' is the preferred abbreviation for Common Lisp, right? 10:11:22 madnificent: I don't know. spiaggia: I didn't. Thanks for the hint. 10:12:03 Beket: so was your question about the implementation or the language? 10:13:08 spiaggia: I guess both. For example C doesn't specify anything related to parallel programming in its standard. Yet, there are libraries that provide such functionality. Is there something similar in cl ? 10:13:12 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-135-51.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:13:27 Beket: Same situation exactly. 10:13:43 Beket: Most implementations have threads. 10:14:03 spiaggia: Thanks. You have been informative. 10:14:59 Beket: no problem. 10:15:25 madnificent: thank you too. 10:16:32 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:17:00 Beket: np, I didn't really help dough ;) 10:18:00 ths [n=ths@p549AF46F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:35 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:22:15 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 10:22:31 aespn [n=ae@209.250.241.195] has joined #lisp 10:22:36 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:22:51 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:23:38 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:23:43 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:23:43 Srini [n=chatzill@203.145.183.210] has joined #lisp 10:24:39 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:25:01 -!- Srini [n=chatzill@203.145.183.210] has left #lisp 10:25:07 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:25:07 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 10:26:59 I would like to call a function with a timer but including arguments. Do I have to create lambda function or is there another way? 10:28:46 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 10:32:13 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-3-97.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:34:32 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:35:25 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 10:38:53 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:42:27 -!- lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:43:20 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:01 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 10:44:28 minion: tell me about creating executables 10:44:30 cYmen_: direct your attention towards creating executables: Newcomers to Lisp often ask how to "create an executable" from their Lisp program. http://www.cliki.net/creating%20executables 10:45:14 minion: thanks, you rock! 10:45:14 you're welcome 10:49:22 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 10:52:21 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:53:40 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 10:54:47 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:54:56 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit [Client Quit] 10:57:53 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 10:58:36 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 10:59:29 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 11:00:39 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:00:39 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:01:12 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 11:07:43 -!- esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 11:08:38 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:56 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-155-195-240.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:56 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-155-194-39.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:17:19 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:17:33 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit ["rebooting"] 11:17:54 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:22:12 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 11:23:31 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:25:07 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 11:25:44 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:28:40 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 11:29:23 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:43 cpc26 [n=ccarr@66.162.199.9] has joined #lisp 11:29:55 jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 11:30:10 -!- cpc26 [n=ccarr@66.162.199.9] has left #lisp 11:30:42 cpc26 [n=ccarr@66.162.199.9] has joined #lisp 11:31:06 -!- cpc26 [n=ccarr@66.162.199.9] has left #lisp 11:34:54 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has quit [] 11:35:30 cracki [n=cracki@44-226.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:38:25 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 11:44:33 *sigh* 11:45:17 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:45:31 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-54-88.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:45:36 #@#!*%#^$#$& administration! 11:47:24 -!- Beket [n=Beket@87.203.221.200] has quit [] 11:48:50 spoken like a true prisoner of academia 11:50:30 Thing is, I can't really complain, given the advantages. 11:50:49 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-86-236.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:54:03 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 11:55:51 kli [n=kli@c-71-236-28-58.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:23 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:03:40 -!- Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:03:54 Chrononaut [n=bjorn@obvcode.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:02 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 12:08:08 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 12:08:14 -!- splittist [n=splittis@129-28.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:09:57 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-135-51.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:12:00 pervonisse [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has joined #lisp 12:13:05 spiaggia: What's up? 12:17:55 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:18:02 hey 12:18:04 anyone herE? 12:18:04 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:18:11 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:33 why doesn't this return the last item ina list? (defun my-last (x) (if (equal nil (cdr x)) x (my-last x))) 12:19:03 what does it return? 12:19:15 infinite loop i think 12:19:17 you're calling my-last again with the exact same arguments, so you have a tail-recursive infinite loop 12:19:25 ah!! 12:19:26 banisterfiend: a, suprise. why? 12:19:34 (my-last (cdr x)) 12:19:38 H4ns: sorry 12:20:01 *banisterfiend* noob at work 12:20:02 depending on whether you really want the last element, or want to emulate CL:LAST, you might want to return (car x) instead of x in the true case 12:21:04 yeah man! 12:21:44 wow this is fun 12:21:44 thanks 12:24:29 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:26:01 banisterfiend: you could use TRACE : (trace my-last) (my-last '(1 2 3)) and see what happens (with the wrong definition). 12:26:28 clhs trace 12:26:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tracec.htm 12:26:39 thanks 12:27:41 ok 12:27:47 how do i stop the infinite loop in slime? 12:27:51 what do i press to stop it looping? 12:28:24 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:28:47 C-c C-c 12:28:58 It breaks into the debugger. Then q to get out of it. 12:29:20 thanks 12:29:22 great 12:29:23 cheers 12:29:56 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:31:16 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:32:50 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:35:37 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-178-25-42.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:36:24 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:41:54 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-103-13.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:43:18 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E44F3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:43:52 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:44:12 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 12:46:26 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:49:18 AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has joined #lisp 12:51:09 beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-64-211.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:51:19 jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has joined #lisp 12:59:44 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44F3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:59:54 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:01:43 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-86-236.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:02:04 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 13:02:36 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 13:03:59 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:08:23 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:11:13 -!- beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-103-13.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:12:19 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 13:12:28 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 13:17:12 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:17:51 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:17:58 -!- durka [n=durka@d126.mertza.swarthmore.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:19:01 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:19:14 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Client Quit] 13:20:40 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:23:35 ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:24:24 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@93-141-100-42.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:25:01 -!- george [n=george@189.107.203.157] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:10 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 13:29:02 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:29:56 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 13:30:00 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 13:30:06 Good afternoon. 13:31:42 cYmen_: Thanks for asking. Nothing special is up. Just one of those days when crapwork seems to appear more quickly than I can handle it. 13:31:55 tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@unaffiliated/tc-rucho] has joined #lisp 13:35:06 athos_ [n=philipp@p54B850D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:54 there, x-ray done. 13:37:19 got the result? 13:38:03 Neh. They wouldn't give it to me, but I'm free to ask when it's written in my journal.. Heh. 13:38:59 Would you say a CLIM frame is the same as a window in "ordinary" GUIs? 13:39:22 No, a CLIM pane would be like a window. 13:39:25 -!- wormilwork [n=Miranda@adsl-070-155-056-058.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 13:39:25 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:39:49 The frame represents an entire application, including the `model' data. 13:41:31 plage: many application windows have panes 13:41:53 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:42:33 lispm: I don't understand. What's an application window? And how does it *have* a pane. 13:43:04 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:43:18 In CLIM, a window (as I recall) is the same as a CLIM stream pane or something like that. 13:43:22 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:43:32 take for example the main iTunes window of Apple's music player, the window has several 'panes' 13:43:59 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:44:09 a hierarchical view of the library, a top pane, a listing pane, a bottom pane 13:44:12 lispm: You must be using non-CLIM terminology here, right? 13:44:30 I'm using CLIM terminology 13:45:00 hmm, CLIM does not have the concept of main window nor do windows "have" panes. 13:45:19 esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:45:20 if you look at a lot of Apple's newer apps, they look similar to what a clim application looks like: an application window with several panes 13:45:42 *dlowe* liked their older apps better. 13:46:06 lispm: I don't recall "application window" being CLIM terminology. Do you have a reference? 13:47:42 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B8662D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:49:22 layout panes may have child panes, but windows (= clim stream panes) don't. 13:50:11 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:20 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A20CE.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:28 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:50:47 Alright, so layout panes are different from stream panes then. 13:50:50 One of the panes very glose to the graft (the top-level sheet of an application frame) is usually a layout pane (such as a vbox or a hrack or something like that) that can have child panes, some of which are windows. 13:50:57 tic: yes 13:51:04 I was just wondering, because there's a command pane, a thingy-pane, inside the frame. 13:51:12 so frame equals application, more or less, then? 13:51:17 yes 13:51:29 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:51:30 'windows' are an old concept that is only for compatibility in CLIM 2 13:51:32 that makes me feel better about stuffing data inside the frame. 13:52:00 tic: that's where it belongs. 13:52:29 plage, frame to me implies GUI. And mixing application data with GUI code makes me feel uneasy. 13:52:34 tic: doing so also makes it possible to have several instances of an application in a single Lisp image. 13:53:20 plage, as opposed to having a global variable in a package? I guess that makes sense. 13:53:35 tic: well, typically you would have a single slot that contains your model object, or a list of models managed by the frame. 13:53:55 tic: yes, it's better to stick them directly or indirectly in the frame. 13:54:44 tic: Think of the frame as being part of the controller in MVC terms. 13:55:27 plage, yeah. 13:55:45 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 13:57:30 dthomp [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:32 'CLIM panesarestreampanessimilartothegadgetsorwidgetsofothertoolkits 13:58:01 CLIM panes are stream panes similar to the gadgets or widgets of other toolkits' 13:58:07 hahaha. 13:58:12 copying from the clim UG 13:58:12 broken spacebar :) 13:58:18 a PDF 13:58:51 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:59:23 tic: So, if your application is very simple (a single model and a single view), you could store model data directly in the frame. If not, the frame will contain references to model objects and view objects, and you will have commands to create and destroy model objects and view objects. 14:00:06 Right. 14:00:35 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:01:11 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:18 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:22 lispm: that much I agree with. 14:02:55 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:02:58 tic: CLIM distinguishes between the application-frame and the top-level-sheet. I think they simply got that wrong, and CAPI gets it right, where there's only a single class (called INTERFACE there). 14:03:24 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:03:53 lichtblau, interesting. I guess I have to grab LW at some point. 14:03:54 lichtblau: I strongly disagree. An applicatoin-frame is much more than just a top-level-sheet. 14:05:39 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a6f-184.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:07:03 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:49 oh, I bet they both got it wrong 14:07:59 heh! 14:08:33 decaf [n=deadc0ff@c-66e3e055.31-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 14:08:59 vtl [n=user@nat/redhat/x-4c9713bd64a10ae6] has joined #lisp 14:09:41 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf885.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:11:02 i'm not sure i follow this conversation. does clim define the meaning of "window" differently from everyday computerese? 14:11:30 nikodemus: Yes, a CLIM window is the same as a CLIM stream pane. 14:11:48 in the CLIM api there is a relict from an older CLIM version, called a window 14:12:01 nikodemus: A CLIM `sheet' is closer to an ordinary window. 14:12:11 ok. now this makes much more sense 14:12:39 I think the 'sheet' stuff was added by Xerox with their Silica in CLIM 0.9 and then moved to CLIM 2 14:13:07 lispm: That's possible, but that *is* the terminology in the spec. 14:13:53 'window' is for compatibility with older CLIM code 14:14:07 mostly 14:14:34 lispm: I mostly don't use the word `window' when speaking about CLIM applications because of the risk of confusion. 14:15:33 well, I would just avoid the CLIM window concept and use 'window' for what the OS window system displays on the screen 14:15:55 lispm: that would be *very* confusing 14:16:10 I consider it deprecated 14:16:11 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 14:17:14 lispm: which is why I wondered whether you were using CLIM terminolog, of course. 14:18:44 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:19:29 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a69-160.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:21:02 depends what were are talking about the API or in general the CLIM literatur 14:21:12 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:21:33 I thought a 'pane' was more like an ordinary window, but I can't remember what 'sheet' really means. 14:21:42 the CLIM spec for example talks about 'window facilities' in chapter 6 and these are not the 'window's from the api 14:22:08 'The fundamental window abstraction defined by CLIM is called a sheet.' 14:22:33 -!- decaf [n=deadc0ff@c-66e3e055.31-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:22:57 tic: look what you have done! 14:23:12 tic: it's all your fault! 14:23:49 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D453.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:10 plage, :( 14:24:34 *tic* puts down the CLIM manual and goes off to tune his new instrument. 14:25:09 clearly clim 3.0 needs to redefine all the terms 14:25:28 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:25:49 durka_ [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has joined #lisp 14:25:59 nikodemus: that would be fun 14:26:03 hefner: yeah, but you're assuming X11 concepts in your use of "window" there, right? Not sure the rest of the participants in this discussion also meant that. 14:26:38 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:26:59 lichtblau: is "window" in everyday computerese considerably different than how you'd define it under X11? 14:27:16 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:26 my recollection of a win32 window, for instance, is very similar to an x11 window 14:27:44 x11 has nested windows, iirc 14:28:09 so does windows 14:28:22 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:28:30 a window can be a subwindow to another window more than one level 14:28:55 hefner: Joe Random User most certainly means "top level window" when saying "window" 14:29:05 on the Mac I would not think of windows having subwindows 14:30:03 *hefner* can't find anyone to contradict, leaves 14:30:04 these differing capabilities were the reason for the Xerox guys to create these sheet abstractions. 14:30:09 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:19 (And so would I, with my "gtkairo hacker hat" on.) 14:30:28 mega1 [n=mega@3e70d9d5.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 14:33:52 is it a nice hat? 14:35:51 it looked nice and shiny (albeit a little immature) when it was new, but these days it's just broken 14:36:55 <_theHAM> yo momma 14:38:37 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/mcclim/cairo/mcclim-cairo-listener-200305-2207.png 14:38:49 uh!!! 14:39:12 lispm: that's clim-cairo though, not clim-gtkairo 14:39:41 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-226.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:40:31 http://www.lichteblau.com/blubba/gsharp-w32.png 14:41:01 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 14:41:50 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:51 yes, that's gtkairo. I wonder why the scroll bars look so ugly. I think those might already have been GTK+ scroll bars (in contrast to some older gtkairo screenshots in that directory), but their size is off. 14:43:18 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:43:36 it0646 [n=it0646@195.251.209.11] has joined #lisp 14:45:09 what's the fate of cairo in gtk? is it still part of it? 14:48:18 wedgeV_ [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 14:50:18 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 14:53:21 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:54:50 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 14:58:10 lispm: Cairo is used as the drawing system for GTK 14:59:39 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 15:00:04 doesn't seem like it will go away 15:01:29 anyone familiar with cl-ppcre's hexadecimal character codes (\x)? 15:01:34 benny [n=benny@i577A14DC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:01:40 (cl-ppcre:scan "^[^\\x0F8-\\x2FF]+$" "abc") 15:01:59 "Invalid range from #\8 to #\/ in char-class." 15:03:02 even if there's a \\xF8-\\x2FF or \\x00F8-\\x02FF 15:03:19 jsnell_ [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 15:03:28 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:03:48 which results in "from #\8 to #\Stx" 15:04:01 is this a bug or is my setup broken? 15:06:35 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-178-25-42.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:14 karpar [n=zhili@2001:da8:8000:d010:0:5efe:7dd9:f6d9] has joined #lisp 15:10:41 -!- jjong [n=user@203.246.179.177] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:11:21 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:14:46 turbo24prg: as i understand, \x can be followed only by two digits, there is \x{243a} but isn't supported by cl-ppcre 15:15:53 CL-INTERPOL might be useful. 15:17:27 milanj [n=milan@77.46.187.188] has joined #lisp 15:19:32 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 15:19:51 ah, ic. thanks! 15:20:06 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:20:13 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 15:21:39 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 15:21:50 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp459.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 15:21:58 -!- gdmfsob [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit ["Stopping IRC chat... [OK]"] 15:22:36 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:19 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:23:20 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:23:59 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 15:24:31 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:25 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:28:13 -!- it0646 [n=it0646@195.251.209.11] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:28:37 another stupid question: i was looking at the Wikipedia page of Common Lisp, there is an information box with a 'Influenced' field 15:29:03 would it be correct to say that 'Ruby' is influenced by Common Lisp? 15:29:14 lispm: No. 15:29:23 Why not? 15:29:34 lispm: See: http://web.archive.org/web/20060522191515/http://ruby-talk.org/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/179642 15:30:15 right, I saw that - that speaks against 'Common Lisp' as an influence 15:30:17 Well, we could say that Common Lisp influenced Ruby in the measure that Ruby makes all the efforts it can to AVOID implementing any good feature from CL... 15:30:22 Poplog is a major CL implementation? 15:30:26 hm 15:30:35 matimago: I thought that was Python. 15:30:43 in some other place somebody has asked Matz on influences, and Matz' answer was 'Common Lisp and Smalltalk' 15:30:52 I seem to remember hearing the Ruby inventor is a big fan of Common Lisp. 15:31:43 sellout: try to move a magnetic north pole closer to another magnetic north pole. It goes in any direction it can to avoid it. Some go to Java, some to Ruby, some to Python, some to Perl, whatever to avoid CL. 15:32:01 one could say that several Scheme dialects are influenced by Common Lisp, especially those that use some CLOS-like object system 15:32:47 Haskell took some numerics from Common Lisp, but I don't know if Haskell should be added 15:34:11 works, great 15:34:33 stassats, pkhuong: thanks 15:35:45 *tic* decides the keyboard is more friendly to his fingertips than the guitar was. 15:36:13 -!- jsnell_ is now known as jsnell 15:36:25 tic: try emacs! 15:37:06 hmm, is Emacs Lisp influenced by CL? 15:37:17 tic: solution to fingertip problem with guitar: play lots! 15:37:30 lispm: you should get some sense of history. 15:37:34 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:37:40 lispm: when was GNU emacs development started? 15:37:45 lispm: when was Common Lisp designed? 15:37:59 1984-1994 15:38:10 or 1983-1994 15:38:26 can `cl' compatibility package be considered as part of emacs lisp? 15:38:35 would the CL package and the CLOS package for Emacs count? 15:38:39 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-243.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:39:08 tic: What guitar is it? 15:39:21 Emacs, initial release 1976 15:39:24 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:39:43 lispm: given than emacs developers don't like to have emacs packages (distributed with emacs) depend on cl, no, we can't consider it part of emacs lisp... 15:39:43 but Emacs LIsp? 15:39:57 Few to none of the major features of Common Lisp have influenced Emacs Lisp, so I would say "no". 15:40:10 matimago: I guess you are right 15:40:25 chandler: thanks 15:40:33 lispm: have a look at wikipedia GNU_Emacs, it summaries its history well. 15:41:16 okay, Emacs Lisp would be from 1984 15:41:23 elisp and cl are described in different manuals 15:41:35 http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/manual/ 15:41:41 jajcloz [n=jaj@c-24-62-47-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:41:57 salex, that, and hope that my body stops removing skin from my palms and finger tips. I start bleeding off my fingertips nowadays because of the lack of skin :/ (I can't do anything about it, either) 15:42:09 stassats, that could be friendly to my fingertips, but on the other hand kill my wrists. ;) 15:42:43 schme, "husets gitarr" at Gitarren.se with gig bag, tuning device + song book. Just picked it up today. 15:42:46 Hmm, XLISP could be mentioned 15:42:49 I would say that Scheme has been a much stronger influence on Common Lisp than the other way around, honestly. About the only major influence of Common Lisp on Scheme that I can think of is the decision to require a full numeric tower in R6RS. 15:43:35 chandler: I would only think of some scheme dialects which took things like the condition system or clos 15:43:48 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@p54B850D5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:43:49 tic: urk. that sounds no fun 15:44:06 Well, the CLOS packages are not Scheme qua Scheme, and not every implementation provides those. The condition system is a better example, yes. 15:44:07 i wonder how that will affect callus development 15:44:18 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska182223.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:44:18 I hadn't thought of that, actually. 15:44:50 salex, indeed. think raisin fingers, but 24/7 and one layer skin less. :-) (otherwise, yeah, playing more sounds like a good solution -- that has always worked before, and it's fun!) 15:45:06 tic: just be patient and have breaks if you're practicing. after a few weeks, your skin will adapt. take care of your sinew, if that starts to hurt, have a break. take a teacher. 15:45:42 danlei`: I think his point was a skin condition, not just undeveloped calluses 15:45:47 lispm: actually, your question is valid, they were developed about at the same time. So they could have had common ancestors. But since several good features of CL are missing in emacs lisp, and RMS is known for disliking them, we can assume there's was no or little influence. 15:46:11 But of course, this is lisp, so good features from other programming languages can be implemented as libraries. 15:46:16 chandler: stklos 15:46:23 http://www.stklos.org/ 15:46:52 that would be a Scheme with 'CLOS' integrated 15:46:58 *tic* disappears elsewhere 15:47:05 matimago: I agree 15:47:08 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:47:20 lispm: Yes. Others have it too. But Scheme is defined by RNRS, not one particular implementation. 15:47:34 lispm: It is a bit like saying that Common Lisp has extensible sequences because SBCL does. 15:47:43 as for 'not liking dependency on cl package in emacs' - AFAIK it's more about the fact that cl.el changes some stuff, so you are kindly asked to load it only during compilation (and compile your code before loading) 15:48:11 in this case SBCL provides an extended dialect of Common Lisp ;-) 15:48:58 lispm: yes, this is allowed by CL. 15:49:10 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:49:21 so SBCL is influenced by CL ;-) 15:50:23 Indeed. It has "CL" in its name. 15:50:24 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska182223.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:45 is tcl influenced by cl? 15:51:06 No, it has "cl" in its name, not "CL". Remember, CL is cases sensitive, and uppercasing by default. 15:51:17 oh 15:51:22 lol 15:51:33 how about Clojure? 15:51:45 It's mixed. 15:51:49 I seem to recall Matz saying that Ruby's keywords were influenced by Common Lisp. 15:51:53 "Cl" ;-) 15:52:14 Clojure would be good to list. 15:52:33 oddly enough /me spent a good chunk of last week hacking with tcl, something I'd previously avoided somehow 15:52:45 chandler: what did Clojure get from CL? 15:53:20 C++ was influenced by CL in that it did NOT get restartable conditions ;-) 15:53:38 salex: somebody ought to make a FFI to expect's functions... 15:54:24 lispm: Multiple dispatch (generic functions), and other syntactic bits here and there. 15:54:27 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:54:54 matimago: prolly. this was embedded in a large system with a ton of TCL wrappers though. If I have to do much more of it, i'll look at SWIG or embedding ecl or something, I suspect 15:55:42 isn't it easier to ask what clojure didn't get from CL ? 15:55:55 *mejja* can't resist mentioning http://groups.google.com/group/gnu.misc.discuss/msg/20df38928f5390dc 15:55:58 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:56:14 "It should be a real programming 15:56:16 language, designed for writing and maintaining substantial programs." 15:56:25 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:36 Ah, that explains the substantial facilities in Elisp for writing and maintaining substantial programs. 15:56:49 Give me a minute, and I'll think of them. 15:56:50 mejja: I can't argue with him 15:56:52 so, you guys agree if I add Clojure to the influenced languages on the Common Lisp page? 15:57:04 yeah, the elisp libraries are known as emacs 15:57:06 :) 15:57:07 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:57:19 lispm: Yes. 15:58:15 hey, on above note, has anyone here used the SWIG generated CL wrappers in anger? How workable is it on a large system? 15:58:18 -!- karpar [n=zhili@2001:da8:8000:d010:0:5efe:7dd9:f6d9] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:58:38 lispm: absolutely 15:59:41 -!- beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-64-211.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:59:53 beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-120-219.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:00:40 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-43.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:01:49 lispm: ISTR a c.l.l. post by KMP saying that both Elisp and CL were influenced mostly by Maclisp, but while RMS was basically fine with Maclisp and only added a few minor improvements CL also adopted many features from other dialects and from scheme 16:05:23 Sather would be a candidate, but probably nobody cares about that anymore 16:05:54 lispm 16:06:09 yes? 16:06:10 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:06:12 Is that the language that was developed at that institute near berkeley? 16:06:32 yes 16:06:41 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:41 *rpg* is still grappling with the undocumented completion interface... 16:07:12 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 16:07:19 -!- durka_ [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has quit [] 16:09:24 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 16:13:59 a-s [n=user@92.80.72.93] has joined #lisp 16:14:01 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:14:17 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:14:17 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:14:17 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska182223.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:14:17 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:14:17 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quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:19:52 Harag: what? 16:20:53 -!- bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has left #lisp 16:21:06 -!- beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-120-219.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:08 beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-85-200.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:21:15 deximer [n=deximer@pool-151-199-43-152.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:19 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:22:05 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@114-198-13-51.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 16:22:35 (with-html (:html (:head (:script :type "text/javascript" :src "/dojo/dojo/dojo.js") 16:22:42 something like that 16:23:07 I found one or two examples but I get a :script not defined 16:23:50 Harag: I use it, but I have (:script :language "javascript" 16:23:52 you can use any keyword you want 16:24:06 Harag, that should work 16:24:51 The function :SCRIPT is undefined. 16:24:52 [Condition of type UNDEFINED-FUNCTION] 16:25:03 Harag: nevermind, I also have :type "text/javascript" elsewhere 16:25:22 Harag: then are using cl-who wrong 16:25:44 lol that is possible but I dont think so in this case 16:25:56 i will paste the full macro 16:26:03 anyone here have anecdotes about using mudballs? 16:26:23 i don't think either, i just know that, yes, paste will help 16:27:08 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 16:27:51 Harag pasted ":script" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71512 16:28:24 I had the script at the end of the :head as well just in case but it should not matter 16:28:46 Harag: works fine for me 16:31:10 why is at a macro? and are you sure that you are calling not the old expansion of it? 16:31:26 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:31:51 never mind guys 16:31:52 sorry 16:32:12 -!- dthomp [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 16:32:14 I had a cut and paste problem else where in the package 16:32:20 still getting use to emacs 16:33:46 -!- brill [n=brill@0x57386060.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:36:35 -!- ThomasIl [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:37:50 -!- aespn [n=ae@209.250.241.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:41:50 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:20 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181132005.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:43:10 -!- topo [n=topo@53.pool85-58-128.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 16:43:38 -!- beach```` is now known as beach 16:44:01 durka [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has joined #lisp 16:47:22 hmm, this ( http://blog.wolfram.com/2008/12/01/the-incredible-convenience-of-mathematica-image-processing/ ) would fit well into the McCLIM listener 16:47:22 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-155-195-240.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:48:15 yeah, I had that thought too. that sort of thing is what I always imagined the potential of a graphical repl to be, honestly. 16:48:43 jajcloz_ [n=jaj@c-24-62-40-124.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:50 although I'm not sure I still feel that way, and I think I've given up on such advanced technology, at least unless someone more competent than myself implements it. 16:50:30 hefner! 16:50:56 lispm, hefner: I was thinking similarly when I saw that. pieces of that should be relatively trivial to do 16:51:19 the wolfram article strikes me as a little disingenuous, as the repl-ness doesn't really contribute anything of value, it just makes for cool screenshots 16:51:39 lots of marketing blurbs 16:52:49 "marketing is the key to growth, baaabbbbyyyy!" 16:53:02 (sorry, inside joke, but I couldn't resist) 16:53:09 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-98-133-128.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:21 though, there is some truth to it ;-) 16:53:23 anyways, it's a features that already existed for a long time in other environments, one of the youngest of them being DrScheme... 16:54:41 Quick question about McCLIM re the above --- does it now handle accepting values for a multiple-argument command? The last time I used it that worked pretty poorly.... 16:54:58 josemanuel [n=josemanu@223.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:54:59 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 16:55:19 re pretty screenshots. anyone know enough about xul to say if using libxul for a lisp gui would be "nice", "interesting", or "stupid"? 16:55:37 -!- durka [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has quit [] 16:56:27 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:57:01 nikodemus: perhaps as a McCLIM backend? 16:57:16 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:57:17 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-41-21.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:58:02 no more mcclim backends, please :) 16:58:15 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-71-138-131-4.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:58:25 -!- deximer [n=deximer@pool-151-199-43-152.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:58:44 I was about to say, no more GUI please. Isn't there already enough GUI usable from lisp? 16:59:02 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@c-24-62-47-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:10 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@223.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 16:59:53 minion: chant to matimago 16:59:54 matimago: MORE GUI 17:00:26 ;-) 17:00:44 yeah, the sheer mass of gui applications written in common lisp is truly overwhelming. i can't stand any more of them. 17:00:54 willb [n=wibenton@wireless34.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 17:01:04 s/more// 17:01:05 H4ns: rapported to the number of GUI libraries or FFI, yes. 17:01:35 There might even be more lisp GUI libraries than lisp GUI applications... 17:01:39 aren't GUI apps out of fashion ? (ducks) 17:01:42 -!- vtl [n=user@nat/redhat/x-4c9713bd64a10ae6] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:02:14 lispm: there's some heavy graphic processing stuff that cannot be done easily thru the net. eg. OsiriX 17:02:27 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 17:02:50 it's the end of history! 17:03:52 so no-one knows about xul? :) 17:03:57 a sign of the end of times 17:04:20 mozilla xml ui stuff + javascript? 17:04:29 I only know that mozilla/firefox uses it 17:04:44 durka [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has joined #lisp 17:05:29 lispm: somewhat, but there's a bit of demand for them still :) 17:05:44 nikodemus: it could be a first step to embed a lisp inside Firefox ;-) 17:05:50 matimago: there's currently nothing free which works nicely on the big three 17:05:54 (OSs) 17:06:11 X11 ? 17:06:22 note 'nicely' :) 17:06:33 nikodemus: *interesting* 17:06:36 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 17:07:27 the big three - that's linux, freebsd, and solaris, right? 17:07:35 gtk is probably the closest I guess 17:08:29 xul is very cool to make gui applications 17:08:35 s/freebsd/bsd/ :) 17:08:45 Linux, Darwin, and VMS^W WNT 17:09:07 TOPS-20 not to forget 17:09:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:09:36 the hurd! it must run on the hurd, too! 17:09:58 I can't reconcile Apple's touting their intelligent design with naming the kernel Darwin. 17:10:03 it would still just be gnuos so userland shouldn't change much with the hurd :) 17:10:05 -!- mmorrow [n=link@c-98-193-60-208.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:10:17 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:10:19 shouldn't change much from debian linux at least 17:10:51 -!- durka [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has quit [] 17:10:52 phadthai: GUi stuff probably not. But stop expecting POSIX filesystem semantics... 17:11:14 it'll surely support it for compatibility? 17:12:23 phadthai: in GNU Hurd, no one knows what the fuck that pathname ends with... 17:12:25 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:12:28 ;-) 17:12:31 heh 17:13:11 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 17:13:11 at least I remember a function which was supposed to give you info about whether what you just got as a file isn't really a server that services a different set of operations than normal file 17:13:28 yes I also remember something similar 17:13:41 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:13:58 afaik it's quite possible to end with a file that won't support read/write, but will happily answer to send/recv. 17:14:03 phadthai: yep, except there's no acceptable GTK implementation for normal use on MacOS 17:14:14 My verdict is that they simply should kill Hurd with Fire 17:14:15 (and the windows one is marginal, though it's improving) 17:14:40 rsynnott: He? I haven't had problems with GTK on windows for a long time 17:15:05 I thought someone did gtk patches for cocoa but maybe it wasn't complete 17:16:02 phadthai: yep, they're there, but not really production-quality right now 17:16:11 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-85-200.w81-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:16:20 there's QT, but it's got a horrible licensing situation 17:16:32 osx users who want to use free software still don't agree to cope with x11 applications as a compromise? 17:16:41 GPL? 17:16:58 QT requires a license for commercial use I think 17:17:31 if you're doing closed source QT, yeah. But GPL is GPL, you can still sell it. 17:17:51 gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:23 phadthai: it's a pretty bad compromise for many users 17:18:24 Hi 17:18:36 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:09 Draggor: GPL, or a commercial license which they don't tell you the price of 17:19:18 (and which is generally royalty-based, I hear) 17:19:21 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has joined #lisp 17:19:29 so it's only acceptable if you wish to produce GPL software 17:20:56 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 17:21:09 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 17:22:39 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 17:24:38 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [Client Quit] 17:26:17 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska182223.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 17:26:31 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska182223.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:29:58 phadthai osx users generally dont cope with anything but cocoa 17:33:11 or carbon, at a push :) 17:33:17 hmm if so, they're more likely to pay for commercial software for cocoa, and so we can use GTK for POSIX and not care? :) 17:33:24 or something on top of them (wxWidgets, QT) 17:33:53 does wxwidgets use cocoa, or also gtk on osx? 17:34:00 QT does not force GPL, it can be used with a number of open-source licenses, including BSD: http://doc.trolltech.com/4.3/license-gpl-exceptions.html 17:34:08 phadthai: carbon, at the moment 17:34:13 And their commercial licensing is, IMHO, reasonable for what you get. 17:34:21 well, isn't it more that osx users are used to at least the idea of pursuing common interface conventions, and it's pretty hard to make an X11 program match up. 17:34:23 -!- beach` is now known as beach 17:34:27 But no, you can't develop closed-source commercial software with GPL'd QT. 17:34:40 Good evening. 17:34:43 they're apparently migrating to cocoa, though; Apple is slowly killing off carbon 17:34:49 bdowning: at least not the interface part.... fair enough 17:34:50 salex: although they also agree to pay for that (i.e. apple+osx) 17:34:51 hi beach 17:35:02 latest QT4 seems to use Cocoa bindings 17:35:16 phadthai: right. they're also as a group much more likely to pay for share/donateware 17:35:33 is the GTK-cocoa project sponsored? 17:35:42 if not it would be a good thing to think about true 17:36:29 mulligan [n=user@78.52.49.67] has joined #lisp 17:36:47 salex: and these days, much more likely to use client-side software in general, it seems 17:36:49 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:37:53 it was fun to see Steve Jobs trying to sell web-based user interfaces for the iPhone, and then see the local apps for the iPhone take off 17:38:38 it'd be more fun to see useful local apps allowed for the iPhone. 17:38:48 there are a few 17:39:20 they're constrained by agreements with operators; some operators like to have control over what goes on devices on their networks 17:39:27 no they're not 17:39:32 c.f. windows mobile devices 17:39:36 which have no restrictions 17:39:51 palm devices, also no restrictions 17:40:25 I believe the operator can impose restrictions on those, can't it? 17:40:26 the g1 is pretty nice because of android I find, hopefully more phones will use the platform 17:40:39 it's a wierd trade off. Apple is very controlling about what can end up on their devices, on the other hand at a platform level they're the first to have done this close to right afaics 17:40:47 rsynnott: Speaking as a former employee of a mobile operator: The one to control iPhone is Apple - you don't like it, you don't get iPhones in your network 17:40:47 rsynnott: if they can, I don't know of any who do. 17:40:49 certainly, the operator can lock down most java phones to only run stuff signed by them 17:41:09 i'm ignorant of how well android is put togeter as a target though 17:41:37 but all the previous incarnations and the `smart phones' suck pretty badly wrt interface and to write for 17:41:45 dkcl [n=dkcl@181.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:42:05 yeah, I'm using a used iPhone 2G (on t-mobile). It's a great device, but I can't wait for someone else to come out with a phone that I don't have to hack to make it useful. 17:42:29 Depending on apple will just make me sad when they finally figure out how to make a secure device. 17:42:31 also, iPhone is probably one of the worst smart phones around (unless you hack it). Also, someone change that OSD keyboard. 17:42:34 foom: same here, plus I can't afford the mad plans for 3G around here. 17:42:53 p_l: that's 'cause it really isn't a `smart phone' 17:43:09 oh, 3G has been generally cheaper than GPRS here 17:43:10 but making the target a flavor of osx was exactly the right direction 17:43:30 (most operators never had semi-unlimited GPRS, and only introduced it when the original iphone turned up) 17:43:48 salex: Oops, sorry. PDA-phone? It doesn't fight well against those too. I'd take a HTC-made, Windows Mobile-based phone over iPhone anytime 17:43:49 ok, so *why* do our assembly routines use full-call style instead of :raw? 17:43:53 -!- fy__ [n=chatzill@mail.lakehaven.org] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.1/2008070208]"] 17:44:19 yeah, $30/month extra plus the voice plan cost is rather insane. 17:44:21 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:44:25 the iphone also has the benefit of a relatively nice API and programming language, comparted to WinCE 17:44:26 nikodemus: backtrace/gc friendliness? 17:44:39 yep, iphone in the US seems shockingly expensive 17:44:59 p_l: fwiw, I don't personally want either of them. But I understand both the popularity of them with users, and the things they've done right as a target 17:45:14 rsynnott: the whole industry sucks here 17:45:16 I've had emacs with slime open for three days now and by now it has three processes which together eat up 75% of my 2G memory...so...WTF? :) 17:45:29 hm 17:45:35 doesn't wash, i think 17:45:42 I still wonder what impression Steve Jobs got from the Xerox demos he got on the Smalltalk system, that still they develop in C (derivatives) 17:46:01 cYmen_: sure they're actually using that memory, and don't just have big reserved virtual memory pools? 17:46:03 obj c is a pretty nice system for what it is 17:46:24 i don't know what the exact trade offs were at that point 17:46:43 lispm: obj c was originally an attempt at a fast language with a decent object system 17:46:47 i don't see how it would matter for GC, and for backtraces the two-arg-foo case is a tail-call anyways 17:46:47 salex: I'll say that the only thing iPhone got right is the sensitivity of the screen and API. However, Apple doesn't know how to make a phone work 17:46:53 cYmen_: are you certain? 17:47:25 p_l: I'm far happier with it than with any previous phone 17:47:30 nikodemus: doesn't cheneygc do weird stuff with backtraces to fix return addresses up? 17:47:54 p_l: not only that. making it essentially os-x based was really smart 17:47:56 rsynnott: I tried it. Got too angry at UI to think of getting it :) 17:48:11 the only thing that I don't like about iphone is that it doesn't annoy you while it runs out of battery well enough 17:48:20 really? I always found the S60/WinCE UIs very off-putting 17:48:23 the alternatives (* perhaps not android, i don't know) universally suck 17:48:34 android is supposedly quite good 17:48:39 as targets 17:48:39 maybe. i'm not too familiar with details of cheney -- but i'm thinking about x86[-64] assembler routines 17:48:50 er, shouldn't say "only thing I don't like". "the only thing that *seriously* ticks me off" i mean. 17:48:50 rsynnott: yeah, i don't know anythign about it 17:49:00 also, there are certain hw problems with iPhones (they repaired some of it 3g, but the old one was LOL) 17:49:05 they mostly suck as UI's too 17:49:05 *nikodemus* tries what happens with :return-style :none for generic-eql 17:49:27 it alsoo occasionally gets itself into a nasty state and needs to be rebooted to work properly again 17:49:37 As I said, I don't have or want one or its alternatives 17:49:38 (haven't seen this happen since update before last, though) 17:49:48 but I do think it was the kick in the ass the industry needed 17:49:57 (now hopefully they'll follow through) 17:49:58 from my pov, iPhone doesn't fix any of my problems with Windows Mobile UI (WinCE allows for nicer) 17:50:02 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:50:13 nikodemus: copy/paste issues (: 17:50:16 and introduced more problems. 17:50:31 p_l: it tends to be far, far cheaper than such devices, though 17:50:32 rsynnott: I only checked the output of htop (which is just a pimped top) 17:50:42 did you see las3r, the clojure on flash that's on reddit atm? 17:51:01 Also, S60 is designed for phones without touch screen, and for that it works nicely (not to mention more usable than iPhone without a lot of hacks) 17:51:05 cYmen_: in real top, is it the VIRT or RES column which shows the huge memory usage? 17:51:10 can the people nattering about phones please shut up? 17:51:46 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 17:51:55 sorry; yeah, people are actually trying to actually have on-topic conversations here. :) 17:52:02 rsynnott: Well virt is 500M and res is 300M for every one of those 5 processes :) 17:52:11 what are the three processes called? 17:52:56 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 17:53:02 cYmen_: are you sure you're not misinterpreting the way htop shows threads? 17:53:19 pkhuong: No, I'm not sure I might very well be. 17:54:26 <_theHAM> I'm new to lisp. I want to lookup an entry in a hashtable based on a parsed string ("item"), instead of a hardcoded symbol ('item), and I don't know the syntax 17:54:49 _theHAM: are your keys strings or symbols? 17:55:04 rsynnott: 27361 simon 25 5 546m 312m 5368 S 0 15.5 0:27.49 sbcl ...I think there's only that process and pkhuong is right the others are just threads... 17:55:07 <_theHAM> rsynnott: symbols, although I could go either way 17:55:30 whee, :none works -- and is 25% faster on my benchmark! 17:56:21 (on x86 with CMOV enabled -- probably even better without CMOV) 17:56:23 nikodemus: can you put the code for those ubenchmarks up somewhere? 17:56:35 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 17:56:47 two pics of a tablet/pen computer UI based on Genera / Dynamic Windows: 17:56:49 http://lispm.dyndns.org/lisp/pics/companion1.png 17:56:53 http://lispm.dyndns.org/lisp/pics/companion2.png 17:57:34 ca. 1990 17:59:23 hahaa, and a better (more GENERIC-EQL intensive) benchmark shows 37% speedup! 17:59:26 (pasting) 18:00:15 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:01:15 cYmen_: if they are threads, then the largest of the resident sizes is PROBABLY what you should be looking at 18:01:50 lispm: that's an actual UI? 18:02:03 not sure 18:02:15 Tarlok [n=user@0-16-d4-5c-87-f3.sm.esol.dur.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 18:02:42 looks like a mockup, at least partially 18:02:48 george_ [n=george@189.107.203.157] has joined #lisp 18:02:50 yes looks hand drawn 18:02:56 other than the fonts 18:03:29 nikodemus pasted "generic-eql benchmark" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71525 18:03:30 nikodemus: eql might be better with xor/jcc/test/jcc than cmp/jcc/test/jcc/test/jcc. XOR gives us the zero flag *and* lets us check if the lowtags are identical. 18:03:37 it says mock-up, but I don't know how much experimenting was done for it 18:03:57 <_theHAM> rsynnott: strings for keys doesn't seem to work for me either, e.g. (gethash "item" *myhash*) 18:04:41 _theHAM: it's not a question of syntax, but of test. The default test for hash tables tests for pointer equality for strings. 18:04:55 <_theHAM> oh 18:04:59 <_theHAM> right 18:05:04 (make-hash-table :test #'equal) 18:05:09 nikodemus annotated #71525 with "more microbenchmarks" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71525#1 18:05:15 josemanuel [n=josemanu@63.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:05:49 <_theHAM> thanks 18:06:17 -!- jajcloz_ [n=jaj@c-24-62-40-124.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:06:18 phao [n=phao@189.13.121.236] has joined #lisp 18:06:56 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has quit ["Leaving..."] 18:08:08 pkhuong: right. and we could determine not-eql for more cases in the generic-eql routine as well -- only other-pointer-lowtags with widetag < code-header-lowtag need the numeric magic 18:09:02 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:09:13 although... are we supposed to handle degenerate tiny bignums correctly? 18:09:26 no, it should be impossible to create them 18:09:50 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:54 jajcloz [n=jaj@c-24-62-47-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:09:55 or at least sb-bignum doesn't use eql? 18:10:58 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.39] has joined #lisp 18:11:28 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 18:11:30 currently calling (defun foo (x y) (eql x y)) is noticeably slower than a full call to EQL because the first uses GENERIC-EQL :/ 18:11:37 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.39] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:11:44 phao_ [n=phao@201.58.179.178] has joined #lisp 18:12:04 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:12:54 durka [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has joined #lisp 18:14:36 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.39] has joined #lisp 18:14:44 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 18:15:17 whoops, the winnage of :none is not quite as good as i thought: i compared against a version with an old version of generic-eql 18:15:48 -!- durka [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has quit [Client Quit] 18:16:06 -!- gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.0.990.1"] 18:16:20 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 18:17:10 tcr [n=tcr@e138.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 18:17:14 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.39] has quit [Client Quit] 18:18:03 Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has joined #lisp 18:18:26 the real win is neglible with cmov, but is does save a bit of space in the core 18:18:52 lispm_ [n=joswig@f054053035.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:22:28 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224122092.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:22:56 nikodemus: so, apart from other-pointer-lowtags, is there anything we can't treat as with EQ? 18:23:13 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 18:23:50 i don't think so -- and a good many other-pointer-lowtags (like symbols!) are good for EQ as well 18:24:56 hi guys! I know close to nothing about lisp. all I wanted to ask, was this: why should I learn lisp? (or why not..) 18:25:01 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 18:25:06 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:26:02 Dynetrekk, don't. It takes too long. 18:26:14 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:26:22 lispm_: :P I see. so why did you learn it? 18:26:33 I had that time. 18:27:01 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:27:05 'Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years 'Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years 'Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years' 18:27:08 lispm_: aha... I tried to learn haskell but I never managed to find libraries for what I wanted to do 18:27:13 http://norvig.com/21-days.html 18:27:16 haha 18:27:33 sgware [n=sgware@adsl-074-167-254-190.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:35 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:27:46 copy/paste is not my strength today 18:27:48 Teach Yourself Programming in Ten Years 18:28:13 no, I can see that... maybe you used too much emacs, or too litte 18:28:15 little 18:28:29 both 18:28:31 Dynetrekk: Lisp is a great language to learn. It doesn't take long to get started. 18:28:48 Dynetrekk: well, why not? :) 18:28:49 Dynetrekk, Lisp is good because it changes the way you think about programming. And I think it stays out of your way as much as possible. 18:28:54 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-66-99.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:29:03 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 18:29:03 minutes to learn, a lifetime to master 18:29:19 minion: tell Dynetrekk about that-dead-sexy-book 18:29:20 Dynetrekk: please look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:29:20 rsynnott: well, takes time. I learn python, but I can use it while I learn. 18:29:46 You don't have to wait ten years... 18:30:05 dcrawford: I've seen the book, but it doesn't instantly give a reason _why_ 18:30:13 I'm having a problem running a lisp program in SBCL from a batch file or shell script. I have made a shell script that runs a lisp program and pipes the output to a file. It works fine when I run the shell script directly... however, if I run that shell script from another program, it doesn't work and SBCL complains about "READ failure in COMPILE-FILE at character 3621: end of file" 18:30:20 lisp is good because it provides syntactic abstraction, and mostly stays out of your way 18:30:35 nikodemus: syntactic abstraction? 18:30:49 Dynetrekk, you have used a screwdriver all those years, why do you want to use a hammer? 18:31:05 it's a different tool for a different task 18:31:05 Dynetrekk, go read paul graham's essays for a while (his books might not be the best books to have as a first book, but the essays are useful for learning why) 18:31:15 right 18:31:19 Dynetrekk: If you want Lisp evangelism, read Paul Graham. 18:31:24 hehe 18:31:35 I don't want evangelism right now 18:31:42 I'd like to learn some programming instead 18:31:44 well, slightly dubious evangelism is some case 18:31:56 and he may try to railroad you into using Arc. Don't do that. 18:32:02 minion: tell Dynetrekk about pcl-book # he explains things well 18:32:03 Dynetrekk: you speak nonsense 18:32:17 minion: I didn't say nothing 18:32:18 watch out, you'll make krystof angry 18:32:23 minion: tell Dynetrekk about pcl-book 18:32:23 Dynetrekk: please look at pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:32:41 bah, minion clearly needs to learn about # 18:32:50 or maybe rather ; 18:33:03 your minion is not working properly? 18:33:15 nikodemus: been using Ruby too much? ;) 18:33:15 minion is drunk 18:33:19 deximer [n=deximer@131.239.45.198] has joined #lisp 18:33:20 ssh. Don't criticise it 18:33:21 Dynetrekk: go look at the link minion gave you 18:33:23 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70d9d5.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:33:23 it will REMEMBER. 18:33:34 minion: chant 18:33:34 MORE CASES 18:33:42 nikodemus: I am on it 18:33:56 general question: ; is the comment character in lisp? 18:34:00 yes 18:34:03 syntactic abstraction means being able to write what you mean, have it actually mean what you want 18:34:14 Dynetrekk: well, erm... why not? 18:34:37 -!- tcr [n=tcr@e138.tum.vpn.lrz-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:00 (in practice, it's likely because computers back in the day had fewer characters in their standard set, so no room for luxuries like # or ; or %) 18:35:11 (substitute / for ; there :) 18:35:17 let's say you are writing something that involves a lot of boilerplate (like almost *anything* in most languages). syntactic abstraction lets you get rid of the boilerplace, by abstracting it away 18:35:18 -!- phao [n=phao@189.13.121.236] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:23 rsynnott: why not what? 18:35:37 -!- pervonisse [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:46 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska182223.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:35:58 nikodemus: depends also alot on how clever you are 18:36:06 oh, sorry, I thought you asked WHY ; was the comment character :) 18:36:10 but yeah, I don't like boilerplate. I did java swing. 18:36:28 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.39] has joined #lisp 18:36:32 rsynnott: hehe, okay. sure, why not. I'd like it if all comments were the same, of course, otherwise I don't care. 18:36:47 instead of (defun foo-bar (...many arguments most of which are common to all "foo-" function...) ...more boilerplace common to foo- functions... (actually-code)) 18:36:57 #| this is a comment, too |# 18:36:58 ah, but differing comments make polyglot programs so much more possible :P 18:37:07 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 18:37:27 you can define something like DEFINE-FOO, and use it like (define-foo (...interesting arguments...) (actually-interesting-code)) 18:38:00 no boilerplace all over the place, instead is has been relegated to a single location -- the definition of DEFINE-FOO 18:38:14 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska182223.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:38:54 nikodemus: I see, sort of... reminds me of something in haskell; you can write add5 x = (+) 5 x and don't have to write the 5 all over (very simple example, I agree) 18:39:15 no, that is functional abstraction 18:39:31 generally Common Lisp allows you to write high-level, descriptive, declarative code 18:39:56 cool 18:40:00 it allows you to automate code generation and supports the incremental, interactive creation of software 18:40:02 that's a lot of words 18:40:31 syntactic abstractions FTW! 18:40:50 I also like the REPL. 18:40:57 allright... now, I'm going to ask you something else. how is this SLIME thing so great? 18:41:10 ahaas: me too (from python & haskell experience) 18:41:22 because it supports the incremental, interactive creation of software 18:41:26 Dynetrekk: let me ask you .. how isn't it so great?!?! 18:41:55 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:41:59 drewc: okay, let me rephrase: what buttons do you push to make it a) work b) do somethin useful.... HOW is it great, if you like 18:42:34 Dynetrekk: Do you have slime up and running? 18:42:49 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:42:49 weeell..l think so. just a sec. 18:43:04 do you have a paste-webpage? 18:43:12 outputs shitloads of mumbojumbo 18:43:25 minion: lisppaste 18:43:25 (I press M-x slime and stuff shows up) 18:43:26 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 18:43:45 do you end up with something like "CL-USER>" 18:44:20 Dynetrekk pasted "shitloads of stuff I don't understand" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71526 18:44:24 Dynetrekk: I only ask because simply using SLIME for a day or so would answer all your questions about how great it is. Then start adding the contribs in to make it even better. 18:44:41 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.39] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:44:58 drewc: okay, I see. but the learning curve is a unit step function, except the derivative doesn't disappear 18:45:09 sctb [n=sctb@mail.arcurve.com] has joined #lisp 18:45:15 what does the output mean? if you get it.. 18:45:36 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 18:45:53 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a60723e581cdff18] has joined #lisp 18:45:54 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:55 it means that slime didn't load properly 18:46:05 and your slime is slightly old 18:46:06 Dynetrekk: it means your slime is broken somehow. 18:46:14 drewc: I never even used it! darn. 18:46:15 presumably due to using incompatible versions of slime and clisp 18:46:38 Dynetrekk: get slime from cvs 18:46:56 Dynetrekk: get a modern slime and a modern clisp and you should be ok. 18:47:00 stassats: okay... I use aquamacs. how do you update it with slime from CVS? 18:47:06 SBCL or CCL would be even better choices IMO 18:47:17 is this an out-of-fashion slime, and _how_ is that the problem? 18:47:51 Dynetrekk: have you tried running DOOM on windowsXP? 18:48:12 drewc: no, but I've tried running monkey island 1 18:48:15 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-41-21.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:48:16 does that count? 18:48:20 Dynetrekk: how did it go? 18:48:31 the word "shitfuck" comes to mind 18:48:31 drewc: i tried, and it worked fine 18:48:44 I had to do some "hacking" 18:49:14 Dynetrekk: well, you are trying to run an ancient slime. It will require hacking. 18:49:29 drewc: I see... but it came with the emacs. funny it doesn't work. 18:49:36 so just give in and get a new one 18:49:41 -!- sgware [n=sgware@adsl-074-167-254-190.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [] 18:49:50 Dynetrekk: but not with clisp 18:50:12 stassats: good point. anyway, I kinda get it to works by choosing one of those options 18:50:27 Dynetrekk: i don't care where you got your broken software.. it doesn't work, so either make it work or give up. 18:50:30 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 18:50:53 drewc: good point... well, how does one go about to get non-ancient doom-style slime? 18:51:11 make a cvs checkout 18:51:16 shockingly, google knows: http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/#downloading 18:51:23 I am shocked 18:51:30 (get the cvs snapshot or a checkout) 18:51:48 better do a checkout 18:51:56 absolutely do not under any circumstances try to download the 'release' it's just there to catch the unwary 18:51:56 okay, then what do I do with it? I am a complete retard when it comes to emacs. 18:52:09 rsynnott: hehe, gotcha 18:52:11 oh, actually the link to the release is gone now 18:52:42 http://common-lisp.net/project/slime/doc/html/Installation.html#Installation 18:52:45 Dynetrekk: have you tried, say, the slime manual? 18:53:08 drewc: I'll try a bit and report back... 18:55:04 uh... can I ask you where a reasonable place to put slime would be? make a directory for emacs additions? 18:55:04 Ragnaroek [i=54a65f94@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b1856aad3edf6079] has joined #lisp 18:55:13 *dlowe* has a .emacs.d 18:55:13 I really barely touched emacs before 18:55:21 dlowe: I see 18:56:18 Dynetrekk: wherever you put it, you're probably still going to have to tell emacs where to find it 18:56:44 ahaas: found the installation instructions I think thanks to stassats' link 18:57:39 it says "connected. may the source be with you" 18:57:40 CL-USER> 18:57:46 woohoo! 18:57:49 wow, you won 18:57:50 I'd say so 18:58:01 man 1, machine 1000 18:58:10 (it's got a pretty big lead by now) 18:58:14 now you can write the next great killer app 18:58:25 I'd say that is a good sign, you made the first chamber of the shaolin 18:58:48 allright. now I'm a freema-son of a bitch 18:59:03 now how do you people actually use this when you work? 18:59:13 Dynetrekk: most of use read the manual .... 18:59:21 I see 18:59:21 then use the features it outlines 18:59:22 hahahahahaha! 18:59:29 there are also other lisp editors :) 18:59:31 sorry 18:59:43 -!- Tarlok [n=user@0-16-d4-5c-87-f3.sm.esol.dur.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:54 Dynetrekk: you can now type to Lisp 18:59:55 Dynetrekk: usually we write programs to make writing programs easier 18:59:59 Ragnaroek: I use textmate for everything else, and there's lisp in there.. but I wanted to see if it was any useful 19:00:05 (* 2 3) 19:00:14 Dynetrekk: we use slime to write, compile, profile, examine and otherwise play with common lisp code. 19:00:18 (* 8498092834098230482039840293848230 298340298340820398402834098203984) 19:00:52 drewc: impressive. a command line for the lisp-savvy? 19:00:59 (defun square (x) (* x x)) 19:01:03 19:01:10 Dynetrekk: I like Lisp for webservers, because you can work with the REPL while it's running live. 19:01:16 Dynetrekk: no, not particularly (textmate lisp editing mode) 19:01:17 (square 1/3) 19:01:34 Dynetrekk: what text are you using to learn lisp? 19:01:49 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:01:50 lispm_: I was trying to do the factorial... how do you create a list in lisp? and then foldl something something I guess 19:01:50 good question 19:02:00 get a book now 19:02:04 drewc: pcl 19:02:06 I got one 19:02:10 Dynetrekk: then read it! 19:02:13 well, thhen, read it:) 19:02:22 yeah, sure, but I got stuck in error messages in my emacs :) 19:02:34 the book said "get slime" and it took some getting to get it 19:02:40 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/index.html 19:02:44 (I was here a couple of days ago) 19:02:47 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska182223.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:02:53 Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation 19:03:08 both books should keep you busy for some time 19:03:14 -!- beach` is now known as beach 19:03:35 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:42 Dynetrekk: lispm's recommendation is a good one, especially if you have questions like "how do you create a list in lisp?" :) 19:03:54 hehe, good good 19:05:55 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:27 to what extent is lisp really a functional language? 19:06:50 to the extent you want. 19:06:54 it isn't. it's a multiparadigm language 19:06:58 the extent that it works :P 19:07:01 aha 19:07:12 as opposed to all the others that make you work 19:07:41 it supports functional *style* well, but has many non-functional features, and no features that depend on the whole language being functional 19:08:19 setf makes a 'functional' language cry 19:08:24 functions are first class objects, and it is very common to write almost purely functional code -- but side-effects are a normal part of life 19:08:39 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:18 Adamant [n=Adamant@AASU-196-61.Armstrong.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:09:30 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:09:43 often "good lisp" style is light on side effects, but doesn't go out of it's way to avoid them, especially when the pure solution has a performance hit 19:09:50 right. I tried to learn haskell, and kinda liked it, but it was a pain not being able to print anything... possibly because I didn't know it well enough 19:10:01 I see 19:10:10 Dynetrekk: To do anything in haskell you need to use its non-functional parts. 19:10:20 schme: yeah, eventually 19:10:30 Dynetrekk: lisp would be the same there. 19:10:51 We just don't pretend we're pure ;) 19:10:54 pure evil maybe 19:11:05 -!- wedgeV_ [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 19:11:09 ah, hence the minion 19:11:13 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181132005.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:11:23 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:11:39 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:12:19 ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 19:12:38 adopting some wise saying: 19:12:48 Haskeller: "Buddha is small, clean, and serious." 19:12:48 Lispnik: "Buddha is big, has hairy armpits, and laughs." 19:13:41 glad I'm not a buddhist 19:13:44 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.39] has joined #lisp 19:14:12 lispm_: the original had a schemer for the former 19:14:28 ;-) 19:14:44 dlowe: scheme is the "other" lisp? 19:15:15 Dynetrekk: it's the second most popular language in the lisp family. There are a lot of other lisps. 19:15:19 well, Haskell seems to aim for being executable math. Monads do allow for functional IO, but that math is hairy (for someone who didn't go to far) 19:15:43 p_l: sounds good to me... math > programming 19:16:30 ... ask me sometime why I don't use haskell for math research ;) 19:16:43 salex: Why don't you use haskell for math research? 19:16:45 there's something oddly quantum mechanic about monads 19:16:48 salex: why not? 19:17:35 because however appealing that mapping may sound, in practice getting things done, particularly if you requre numerical performance, can be a different issue 19:17:55 that, and common lisp has some nice features 19:18:08 salex: I can believe that... but then, I use python for numerics 19:18:12 see http://www-fourier.ujf-grenoble.fr/~sergerar/Papers/Ezcaray.pdf 19:18:37 python is terrible for numerics, which is why you have to use or write something in c or whatever to do it 19:18:39 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:18:51 so that's great if it exists, but not so much if it doesn't 19:19:10 common lisp has the advantage of working well at both the high and low levels, in that sense 19:19:17 salex: it's not terrible,if you find nice libraries 19:19:28 did you read what I said? 19:19:32 *wrote 19:19:47 salex: yeah, sorry, I read it 2 sec too late 19:19:48 it's fine if the library exists. why a library? because native python isn't up for it 19:19:56 ah, ok 19:20:16 salex: granted. but native python is nice for the plumbing - reading files etc 19:20:43 so's common lisp. nicer as a language, maybe not in terms of library/package availability 19:20:44 only if you do anything outside lisp. 19:20:59 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska182223.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:21:24 salex: I see. anyway, I'm a bit curious, so I think I'll try to learn a bit and see what I think. 19:21:27 honestly, i'm not knocking the numpy/scipy approach... particularly as a matlab replacement for things you don't want to write yourself 19:21:49 otoh, for something actually new (see `research') the cost/benefit analysis is different 19:22:34 I gave up writing research code in c++ (for the performance) in favor of lisp. Didn't cost much performance, and vastly better suited to it 19:22:56 Yeah, pseudocode in low-level languages is horror. 19:23:08 fast code in haskell is also a horror 19:23:33 salex: I see. numpy/scipy does what I want to do right now very well, so I'll stick to that. but, always nice to have some extra tricks up the proverbial sleeve for later... 19:23:51 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:23:58 well, there aren't any libraries for what I do, much of the time 19:24:24 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.39] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:24:33 numpy was only starting when i switched. I could see it making more sense for a lot of researchers these days, particularly if your systems are fairly simple 19:24:39 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.39] has joined #lisp 19:24:40 (e.g. matlab replacement) 19:25:15 salex: matlab I'd rather not learn, even if a lot of people use it 19:25:29 learning matlab is on my short term agenda 19:25:35 salex: I basically need to evaluate a lot of spherical harmonics and solve linear eqn systems right now 19:25:36 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 19:25:38 scipy is great for that 19:25:59 hefner: try scipy-python. if you're a programmer in any sense of the word it will be vastly more appealing. 19:26:16 nah, I hate python 19:26:34 matlab is very, very good at a few things (none better, reawlly) 19:26:50 and ranges from acceptable to really sucks at everything else 19:26:55 Dynetrekk, you can also use math tools written in Lisp like Maxima or Axiom 19:27:20 salex: such as reading a file with text comments not in matlab... 19:27:22 right, for more symbolic needs 19:27:45 and if you want to write a function, it needs a separate file. it's gross. 19:28:00 salex: tsk. You should be using fortran. That's what mathematicians use :) 19:28:12 rsynnott: 19:28:26 nah. truly, most mathematicians don't use anything 19:28:34 followed by mathematica/maple 19:28:44 matlab has some terribly clever libraries which you don't really see anywhere else, in particular 19:28:57 and the hard-core numerical PDE types are split between fortran and c++ these days 19:29:08 there are a few lisp and APL holdouts 19:29:14 (and a few new ones, like me) 19:29:47 Dynetrekk_ [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has joined #lisp 19:29:57 real programmers can write fortran in any language 19:30:02 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:30:16 for some reason, all chemistry students in my university were taught fortran, and just about nothing else, for programming 19:30:32 -!- Dynetrekk [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:31:14 -!- juturnas [n=juturnas@76-14-113-53.rk.wavecable.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:31:26 rsynnott, maybe because of LAPACK? 19:31:29 yeah 19:31:30 my phd supervisor is a fortran addict. don't know why 19:31:38 Dynetrekk_: what area? 19:31:39 tic: lapack you get in python 19:31:50 salex: physics. applied optics-ish. 19:31:59 salex: recently started it 19:32:04 yeah, lapack is portable, but there are a metric ton of fortran libs that aren't 19:32:11 hefner_, [haskell] would you say it'd look less messy in efficient Lisp w/ type declarations thrown in everywhere? (curious) 19:32:14 it's still a pretty good numerical language 19:32:16 mahop [n=potats@cpe-066-057-051-107.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:32:24 hefner_, (as opposed to just sequencing certain operations in Haskell) 19:32:32 if all you want to do is read data from a file, crunch it, write it back out, fortran is pretty reasonable 19:32:36 salex: probably. it does have some nice properties for numerics I guess 19:32:48 salex: sure. but anything else must be painful-ish? 19:32:48 and there are very good, very solid, libraries with decades of testing 19:33:02 salex: yeah, I call them from python :D 19:33:10 Dynetrekk_: painfulish... less so now that fortran77 (no dynamic memory) 19:33:11 minion: f2cl? 19:33:12 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``f2cl''. 19:33:17 hrm. 19:33:31 there isn't, is there? 19:33:38 but seriously, for much research code you really don't need anything much more 19:33:42 oh, that's just sick 19:33:43 salex: you mean "now than fortran" ? 19:33:46 (f2cl) 19:33:47 salex: I know 19:33:59 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:34:00 C didn't used to have a local variable stack either. :) 19:34:02 and most researchers in many of these areas will never be great programmers, and it would be a waste of type 19:34:04 time 19:34:05 rsynnott: indeed, f2cl is cool! 19:34:09 salex: actually, for much stuff python is good enough too. depends what you work on 19:34:13 of course 19:34:21 but that's a recent development 19:34:32 fortran has the openmp going for it. 19:34:33 and nobody trusts this stuff as much ast the stuff on GAMS say 19:34:41 yet 19:34:50 netlib etc. 19:34:55 yeah, but it saves tons of hours of programming not having to compile a fortran program 19:35:00 Dynetrekk_, I think the thing about Lisp is the one of syntactic abstraction and not really locking you into any specific way of writing applications, be it procedural, object-oriented, etc. Think Python, but without having to fudge with the compiler/parser/runtime to add syntax. 19:35:01 yeah, lapack etc 19:35:21 really, matlab is an effort to do exactly that 19:35:25 tic: right 19:35:37 ages ago, it provided a wrapper on blas/lapack/etc 19:35:42 salex: yeah. but I don't like it much in particular 19:35:46 -!- mahop [n=potats@cpe-066-057-051-107.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:35:51 with nice dynamic properties and good linalg syntax 19:35:52 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:35:59 I have a question for the various people in this chat who keep linking interesting articles about Lisp: is there some central repository of these I can go poke around in, by chance? 19:36:00 salex: I'll give'm that 19:36:08 so essentially doing the fortran coding without compiling fortran 19:36:10 tic: yes. 19:36:11 basically nearly every place you write very similar code in other languages is a place where "You're doing it wrong" 19:36:21 .... but it has it's own problems of course. 19:36:34 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.39] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:36:49 salex: so what do you use? (lisp I guess) and what do you do research on? 19:36:53 Dynetrekk_, so while you can write an infrastructure in any language (in fact, you always do that with your applications) in which you write your applications, Lisp allows you to add that infrastructure more-or-less transparent to the actual _language_ so it doesn't feel as bolted on. 19:37:29 tic: because it is a programmable programming language? :) 19:37:38 Dynetrekk_, what I've come to realize is that Sugar (mostly) Does Not Matter. (it's bad for your teeth, anyway) 19:37:46 Dynetrekk_, indeed. sounds weird, but that's what it is. 19:37:50 Dynetrekk_: I'm an applied mathematician. I write lisp code by choice, others (including matlab) when I have to primarily for signal processing (medical, these days) and related areas 19:38:07 ianmcorvidae: cl-user, in theory 19:38:11 btw, I heard that in scientific HPC programming they mostly use f95 now, which is quite different (though mostly backwards-compatible) to f77 ? 19:38:11 in practice, not so much 19:38:21 heh 19:38:22 p_l: many do, yes 19:38:30 many use c++ too 19:38:37 ianmcorvidae: xach's blog has a surprisingly large number of links to interesting things 19:38:43 as does the bc.tech.coop guy 19:38:44 sgware [n=sgware@adsl-074-167-254-190.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:45 salex: why can't lisp do signal processing? you don't have FFTs etc in lisp? 19:38:55 ??? 19:39:01 where did you get that idea? 19:39:04 Oh this will be fun. 19:39:09 ianmcorvidae, look on planet.lisp.org and also follow the links of subscribers there 19:39:10 ah, of course! /me will investigate the blogosphere :) 19:39:24 salex: I guess I misunderstood what you meant 19:39:27 salex: was that you with the 4000-fold speedup on DSP stuff, on the Lispworks mailing list? 19:39:31 that's basically our frontpage 19:40:00 Dynetrekk_: ah, sometimes I don't write lisp, but that's mostly political/practical reasons, not technical ones 19:40:01 *rsynnott* is confused that the idea of a language which doesn't allow ffts 19:40:17 salex: such as working with the guy in the next office or so? 19:40:34 rsynnott: the point was; you don't want to write the stuff yourself 19:40:35 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.39] has joined #lisp 19:40:56 grad students & collaborators typically. many math grad students can't code their way out of a wet paper bag at first 19:41:04 so if it something for others to use.... 19:41:33 salex: yeah, I know. I'm a physics student, but they're the same, often. 19:41:35 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 19:41:41 if they can't code at all, might as well teach them lisp :) 19:41:44 QUESTION ABOUT SBCL LISP (I think): I have written a shell script 'script.sh' that runs a lisp program 'prog_1.lisp'. The lisp program loads a file via (load file) called 'input.lisp'. Everything works fine when I run the shell script directly from a console. However, when I run the shell script from within a Ruby program, prog_1.lisp only reads in part of input.lisp. In Windows, it only reads in the first 3833 characters, and 19:42:13 (all caps BAD) 19:42:21 sorry 19:42:22 That's a bit perverse calling lisp from inside ruby :) 19:42:23 dcrawford: I am, where I can. Otoh, they're not all mine to steer 19:42:31 I know... haha 19:42:48 ruby calling shell calling lisp 19:42:48 Trying to get lisp and ruby to play with each other is proving quite difficult 19:42:50 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.39] has left #lisp 19:42:51 It does seem odd that it only reads part of the file. 19:42:58 sgware: are there any funny characters in the source fole? 19:43:03 Nope. 19:43:15 And the number of characters it reads seems totally arbitrary. 19:43:25 is there a difference if it's run from linux? 19:43:32 Possibly detirmined by the OS? I only have windows and linux available to test it on 19:43:35 salex: in case I need it: where do I find good stuff for numerics in lisp? 19:43:48 I guess you would know :) 19:43:49 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.39] has joined #lisp 19:43:50 *schme* is curious if it runs ok when called from some other language. 19:43:51 is the answer don't run on windows :P ? 19:43:57 say like lisp or something. 19:44:00 In linux it reads in the first 3621 characters of input.lisp, whereas in windows it reads in 3833 19:44:16 salex, about not being able to code your way out of a wet paper bag.. is that a trend that seems to be rising even in computer science undergrad programs? (I sometimes get that feeling.) 19:44:26 adn your script just does 'sbcl --load bla.lisp' or similar? 19:44:31 is input.lisp a generated or preexisting file? 19:44:31 It just cuts off the file mid-line... and I have no idea why 19:44:39 yes 19:44:50 tic: it could be this simple: more people get an education these days. it must inevitably "lower the level". 19:44:51 tic: That seems to very much be the case. 19:44:55 sgware, that was an either or 19:44:56 Dynetrekk_: not a bad start for general stuff available: http://www.cliki.net/index 19:45:07 sbcl --noinform --noprint --disable-debugger --load "input.lisp" 19:45:11 tic: probably more in CS than elsewhere; a lot of 'CS' courses have shifted towards business-oriented stuff rather than actual cs 19:45:15 salex: great 19:45:16 tic: wouldn't that be terrible? complete a computer science degree, and not only have not learned any math or anything useful, but still can't code your way out of a wet paper bag? 19:45:18 one thing I can say for sure is that it also holds true for pol. sci. students. 19:45:37 for numerical stuff I use a) a bunch I've written (stochastic process stuff, things that don't turn up in libraries much, etc.) b) stuff from the old cmu repostiory (should be a pointer at cliki) 19:45:44 (so the products can probably use BrandName web framework, but are less likely to know how a cache works, say) 19:45:54 dcrawford: Hmm? Sorry, I didn't understand the question. 19:46:08 c) some c/fortran/whatever libraries (you can do this from lisp, it's not as seamless as python but not bad, typically 19:46:21 d) bits and bobs picked up who knows where 19:46:34 I was in the last year at college to be exposed to scary things like languages other than C++ and Java 19:46:38 salex: I see... and for running lisp? CLISP? some compiler? 19:46:42 does the ruby or something write the input.lisp file (basically is it possibly a multithreading issue (file not done being created/written to disk before being read) 19:46:52 tic: I'm only in first year, but many people here had problem with our first assignment... 19:47:02 since then, they've also dropped compiler design as a mandatory course, and dropped most logic design stuff almost entirely 19:47:20 tic: Which was basically written for you, you only needed to transform it into code 19:47:32 some of this is going to depnd on how much performance you need. the hand tuned stuff and thinks like ATLAS or FFTW (autotuned) will beat good native implementations in pretty much any language 19:47:32 rsynnott: no worries, if it happens that compiler design was mostly about parsing =p 19:47:35 Nope. The file finishes writing before running the script. I can cat the file and it's all there... also, it always reads in the same arbitrary number of characters. 19:47:37 so if you actually need that, link it 19:47:41 otherwise, there is stuff around 19:47:46 hefner_: the mandatory third year version was 19:47:58 the optional fourth year version wasn't 19:48:17 now, of course, the optional fourth year version is, due to absense of any sort of compiler design in third year 19:48:18 hefner_, it would indeed be terrible. (Were you being sarcastic?) 19:48:28 tic: I'm not sure. 19:48:29 salex: I see. that's why I like the scipy stuff; it has all these libraries, they're fast, and so on... 19:48:46 I think computer science is stupid, and people ought to be warned away from it. 19:48:50 (they replaced it with a strange thing that can't decide if it's a business class or a psychology class, mandatory, naturally) 19:49:12 Dynetrekk_, more people - lower level: I don't know if I'm actually seeing more people, rather the opposite actually. More people seek into softer IT educations, where you (as schme noted) don't do much "hardcore" things. 19:49:15 Dynetrekk_: yeah, that's fine if what you need is in the standar libs 19:49:18 rsynnott: how about an ethics class? =p 19:49:26 hefner_, on what accounts do you find CS stupid? 19:49:40 Dynetrekk_, uhm, as rsynnott noted. 19:49:42 Dynetrekk_: so again, it depends what you're doing 19:49:43 salex: exactly... 19:50:08 CS should be hard, not a 'learn to code in Java' course 19:50:39 p_l: arguable; there's room for vocational education 19:50:40 tic: more people than in the 70s at any rate. and people don't like hard work and hard stuff any more. 19:50:55 it's be unusual to teach plumbers fluid dynamics, for instance 19:51:03 p_l, for some people it takes time for things to click. I remember learning doubly-indirected pointers when I was 12 or so. Took me ages. I suppose it's the same but at university but with a lot of stress. Also, it might be that some people aren't supposed to learn (or aren't very motivated to learn) 19:51:09 Dynetrekk_: that's a myth, closely related to the 'good old days' one 19:51:33 rsynnott, there's much inflation in education. Nowadays, it seems to be a requirement to understand fluid dynamics to play Mario. 19:52:00 tic: oddly, a lot of people seem to be incabable of figuring out pointers at all 19:52:01 rsynnott: it is? I'm not saying that the old days were good. 19:52:02 ever 19:52:29 rsynnott, perhaps the pointers are hooked up to boring things, like integers and characters? 19:52:29 rsynnott: It would be nice if we got pointer arithmetic :) 19:52:41 rsynnott: you have to use it enough. I didn't understand it in my java course. when I fiddled enough around with C, I had no problems understanding the concept, at least. 19:52:59 tic: you want something like: nakedwoman* n; 19:53:03 tic: When it takes a long time for you to crank a set of code that follows pseudocode written for you in the assignment.... 19:53:58 p_l, it's that magic threshold before you "get" loops, conditionals, assignment and similar basic programming language constructs that does it, I guess. Some people probably never cross that barrier. 19:54:33 tic: The fun thing, this assignment didn't need loops nor conditionals at all 19:54:34 *tic* feels like he's talking out of his rear. 19:54:34 yes, we are the illuminated ones, set apart from others by our MASSIVE brains 19:54:37 and once you get why lisp macros are the 'true magic' then lisp is obvious :P 19:54:55 dlowe, yeah, I was starting to feel silly. 19:54:58 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 19:55:32 anyway, the use of such assignment was stupid IMHO - we need to teach how to think, not how to write some stuff in Java with a lot of hand-waving 19:58:10 the odd bit is that a lot of colleges now seem to be teaching people to do things that they could learn for themselves very, very easily 19:58:29 rsynnott, API juggling? 19:58:33 ksp11 [n=paul@f053039078.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:58:40 tic: rather than veer off into an unproductive rant, I'll just note my impression that virtually anything I could've studied other than computer science would have been a more productive use of my time, even if I never used any of it (math, physics, ee, ce, me, anything) 19:58:41 rsynnott: That's my point. 19:59:08 tic: indeed 19:59:38 hefner_: that's likely 19:59:43 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.10] has joined #lisp 19:59:51 I really regret not doing maths at this point 20:00:34 maths is invaluable in my opinion 20:00:40 other stuff, you can learn 20:01:10 hefner_, *nod* thanks for sharing. 20:02:04 also, 'games development' courses; grr :P 20:02:10 heh 20:02:28 (impressively pointless in practice, but becoming very popular) 20:02:49 rsynnott: do you know what these courses actually teach? I'm just curious 20:03:05 *rsynnott* used to work for a games development company (a bit of Activision); shockingly, everyone had maths or CS degrees and not weird games development ones 20:03:58 Dynetrekk_: most of them seem to be a games oriented equivalent of the vocational computer programming ones 20:04:19 so, stitch a big pile of APIs together and you get a game, rather than a CMS 20:04:33 rsynnott, games development courses = math courses, in practice. the amount of matrix juggling required to get useful things done in graphics, phew. 20:04:36 rsynnott: "vocational computer programming" being some course where you learn just enough to program? 20:04:50 -!- ksp11 [n=paul@f053039078.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 20:04:56 games are great programming exercises, so long as you write them from scratch. you get to use all kinds of fun stuff. 20:05:16 Dynetrekk_: these things which teach people how to write business software of a certain type 20:05:24 by filling in the blanks 20:05:37 rsynnott: I see... web "developers" 20:05:41 or sumptin 20:05:58 or, ten years ago, those people who wrote frightening in-house VB apps 20:06:08 the more things change, the more they stay the same :) 20:06:18 rsynnott: they probably were better off than modern web developers. at least VB *works* 20:06:57 Modern web developer equals PHP developer? 20:07:17 tic: or some fucker playing around with flash... my god. 20:07:19 or .NET 20:07:54 well, anyone who takes a web framework thing and then makes the application work through trial and error, and liberal application of CTRL-V 20:08:09 there are, funnily enough, good PHP programmers 20:08:20 rsynnott: next-page? What? 20:08:36 I mean, scroll-up* 20:09:25 I would like to search for the last occurrence of something in a string using regex. Should I just search for it and use the last listitem or is there a more clever way? 20:10:22 cYmen_: you could try using a more clever regexp, maybe involving .*? 20:11:12 hm...so a .*? at the end to get the shortest string from the end? 20:11:16 sounds like a good idea :) 20:11:32 cYmen_: you could reverse the string and search for a reversed pattern 20:11:49 hrhr 20:12:17 this is hilarious. a colleague of mine (physicist) was so sick and tired of all the books trying to teach you to "make a database of your CDs", as this is not what he is interested in. this was yesterday. now, in pcl: In this chapter you'll write a simple database for keeping track of CDs. 20:12:53 it's a tradition like "Hello, World" 20:13:05 it's THE LAW 20:13:25 I thought pcl did a database of mp3 data? 20:13:27 (similarly, all web framework tutorials may implement either a blog or a reddit clone) 20:13:27 keeping track of cd's is pretty 1990s 20:13:29 ....and we physicists don't like it 20:13:32 C...Ds? 20:13:37 dcrawford: who cares 20:13:42 I copy pasted, by the way 20:13:48 sellout, be-eer. 20:14:02 (that's why there is no decent open-source blog software; everyone is far too sick of that example) :) 20:14:04 what is a 'cd'? 20:14:13 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 20:14:20 lispm_: think of it as a frisbee 20:14:28 you know he has a link to the full source of the code on the book page iirc 20:14:32 lispm_, you put it under glasses. 20:16:15 ah, you mean the shiny thing with the clock 20:16:55 rsynnott: maybe that's why us web developers keep building frameworks to build better blogs and then using that as the example .... :P 20:17:10 minion: tell Dynetrekk_ about paip 20:17:10 Dynetrekk_: have a look at paip: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/paip 20:17:19 then you can blog about it 20:17:23 lispm_, :D 20:17:31 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:17:38 lispm knows no "cd", only *default-pathname-defaults* 20:17:50 ha! 20:17:51 groan 20:18:14 you mean cds haven't gone down the drain with the rest of the financial markets? 20:18:20 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 20:18:30 dcrawford, no, CD sales are blooming. 20:18:46 tell that to tower music :P 20:19:03 the one down the street from home is all closed up 20:19:06 oddly, entertainment tends to survive major recessions surprisingly well 20:19:29 *rsynnott* hopes that this trend continues this time 'round :S 20:19:36 *hefner_* doesn't 20:20:01 hmm write a program that makes the longest chain of puns .. and complete the loop 20:20:06 *rsynnott* works in games industry so is biased 20:20:24 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:20:30 dcrawford: fish. It'll have to be fish. You can work a fish name into almost any sentence 20:20:49 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:20:58 (I'm pretty certain such programs are why prolog exists) 20:21:01 stassats: I have the "modern approach to AI" book on the table here :P 20:21:18 stassats: which seems to be the successor.. 20:21:25 Dynetrekk_: don't make the mistake of thinking PAIP is a book about AI. 20:21:38 dcrawford: making puns is hard. Especially in Java ;-) (sorry for inside joke) 20:21:41 -+ 20:21:49 drewc: ah. but I can't get it on the web...? doesn't seem downloadable 20:22:18 Dynetrekk_: no, it's the old fashioned kind of paper book. 20:22:20 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit ["Induhvidual Quote: “I don't mean to take the steam out of your sails, but...”"] 20:22:29 *drewc* hugs his copy of paip. 20:22:33 lemoinem [n=swoog@x-132-204-241-112.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 20:22:45 *p_l* couldn't help making fun of 'making puns' programs 20:23:01 drewc: I have a lot of those, but not the one mentioned 20:23:14 drewc: due to my love for trees, I'll stick to pcl for now 20:23:30 Dynetrekk_: Use a library 20:23:55 p_l: I'll see what I can dig up 20:24:10 Dynetrekk_: well, i have a paper copy of PCL as well ... i have a love for the planet and it has a smaller carbon footprint than my laptop. :) 20:24:37 Dynetrekk_: but PAIP and PCL are different books really. 20:24:38 drewc: I need the laptop anyway 20:24:43 opposites actually. 20:25:04 drewc: I don't doubt it... I just don't want to buy all the books people recommend at the same time :P I don't have time to read them all anyway 20:25:11 fair enough :) 20:25:11 drewc: depends very much where you live, then :) 20:25:38 PAIP is good for the exercises involving lists. 20:25:45 rsynnott: we have lot of trees here. 20:25:49 whereas PCL is good for showing you that you can do practical things with Lisp. 20:26:13 (if you live beside a nuclear power plant, your laptop is clean and space age, but if you live near a coal power plant, your laptop is evil, planet destroying, and probably covered with a fine layer of soot) :) 20:26:47 it's actually really hard to know what is environmentally friendly 20:26:55 the only thing I'm sure of is that cars are not 20:27:03 rsynnott: actually, i live on a boat an generate a not insignificant amount of my own power :) 20:27:19 drewc: how? 20:27:28 from all the hot air coming our your ears? 20:28:11 Dynetrekk_: solar/generator and sadly still shore power :( 20:28:30 and if you live near a wind power plant, of course, your laptop is clean but only works half the time, and tends to shred seagulls :) 20:28:35 PAIP is an exposition of eye-candy Lisp code. 20:29:01 rsynnott: sounds like linux 20:29:45 *rsynnott* quite likes the idea of transferring the sins of the generator to the actual appliance 20:30:11 'every time you recompile that project, a bird explodes in a cloud of feathers' etc 20:30:15 drewc, how about a water generator thingy? 20:30:22 -!- deximer [n=deximer@131.239.45.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:30:43 tic: not yet, nor have i a wind vane, but such things are coming on the big boat when it's done. 20:30:57 drewc, so you're on the small boat now, then? 20:31:13 tic: yeah .. my little plastic cave :) 20:34:54 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 20:35:50 jajcloz_ [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:02 rsynnott: i have to recompile a project now.. poor birds.... 20:36:11 drewc: solar power? are you giving back to the grid when not using it? 20:36:53 Dynetrekk_: no, we don't generate enough really. It's a boat after all, not a lot of surface area for panels. 20:37:08 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:37:11 drewc: but you use it all then? 20:37:19 'every time you build sbcl, an innocent politician has to make a tortured pause due to a question about nuclear power' etc 20:37:31 though this is changing .. eventually we'll have fabric-type cells everywhere 20:37:45 do those exist at sensible prices, at the moment? 20:37:54 drewc: a solar.. sail? 20:38:02 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:38:09 the energy cost of producing a solar panel is not insignificant, so it's not exactly given that buying one is environmentally friendly 20:38:57 rsynnott: prices are coming down to reasonable levels. 20:39:04 same problem applies to wind, particularly for home generation things 20:39:14 Dynetrekk_: you would not believe how expensice it is to get mains power in the middle of the ocean! 20:39:15 -!- cYmen_ is now known as cYmen 20:39:17 rsynnott: same problem applies to industrial wind 20:39:22 expensive 20:39:28 drewc: I don't know, near an oil platform it could be OK 20:39:28 -!- jajcloz_ [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:41:05 -!- Dynetrekk_ [n=Dynetrek@193.216.225.9] has quit [] 20:41:20 _theHAM pasted "advice wanted: calc program" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71536 20:41:21 deximer [n=deximer@131.239.45.198] has joined #lisp 20:42:22 drewc: you could always install a rowing machine with a dynamo :) 20:42:24 location-appropriate! 20:43:22 rsynnott: actually, we've considered a bicycle hooked up to the flywheel.. both to turn the prop and generate juice. 20:43:38 yeah, put the wife and kids to work 20:43:49 *rsynnott* just gets electricity from the grid 20:43:59 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:44:24 the generation company helpfully details the fuel mix for the month for my region on the back, to let me know just how guilty I should feel THIS week :) 20:44:56 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 20:45:12 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:45:27 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:48:23 just have written a Pascal hello world program with Zmacs 20:48:35 <_theHAM> no-one feels like checking out http://paste.lisp.org/display/71536 and fixing my bad habits while they still can? :p 20:48:42 looks like Zmacs has a fancy template feature 20:48:52 jajcloz_ [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:02 is anybody using something like yasnippet with Emacs and CL? 20:51:35 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:51:53 but does your compiler target some symbolics machine? 20:51:55 :) 20:52:11 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 20:52:27 it does 20:52:49 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@c-24-62-47-57.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:56 m-x compile and execute pascal program 20:53:22 I did not know there was a lispm pascal compiler 20:53:31 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 20:53:47 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:53:48 -!- sgware [n=sgware@adsl-074-167-254-190.sip.rmo.bellsouth.net] has quit [] 20:53:48 quite fancy, with syntax sensitive Zmacs 20:54:22 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:30 good afternoon 20:56:24 when I type for in Zmacs, it inserts a template for a for loop, c-sh-n walks over the template elements 20:57:29 redshank also has some template stuff for Emacs, I need to ask michaelw about it 20:57:38 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:59:14 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.39] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:18 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-43.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 20:59:29 ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.39] has joined #lisp 21:00:26 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-229.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 21:01:49 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 21:02:05 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:02:23 does anyone have any feelings on why they might decline to use frodef's binary-types library? 21:02:35 lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has joined #lisp 21:02:44 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 21:03:00 oh, that's handy. 21:03:02 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has joined #lisp 21:03:03 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf885.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:03:16 lukego: is there any particular reason you stopped using binary-types going from slitch to netkit? :) 21:03:26 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 21:03:49 hefner_ i prefer the one in PCL 21:04:06 the other one seemed overcomplicated 21:04:07 xristos: for what reason? 21:05:43 hefner: just didn't feel there was enough advantage over 'straight code' to justify having an additional framework in the program. possibly some bits (variable size ip options, checksums, ...) were slightly awkward, don't remember 21:06:58 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 21:06:59 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:08:41 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:09:20 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:10:27 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:10:56 durka [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has joined #lisp 21:14:33 hefner_: what are you thinking of using binary-types for 21:16:12 well, I was hacking something together to dig through pcap logs, and I got an adaptation of lukego's netkit code running on sbcl to handle parsing the packet headers (having misplaced my own code for doing so, and foolishly thinking that I could save time by using someone else's) 21:16:51 -!- jollygood [n=jollygoo@129.71.215.161] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:17:02 check out my pcap bindings if you want to capture ;p 21:17:12 "why are there no lisp libraries mommy?" Because we know better! 21:18:28 ..but it's really slow, and the design isn't to my taste, and bitfieldly things are just tedious enough to write the code for by hand that I always turn toward binary-types (before losing interesting without figuring out how to use it and writing it by hand anyway) 21:18:50 hefner_ i extended pcl code for bitfields 21:19:00 and i use it for my own protocol demux 21:19:10 its fast enough and not much hard to gras 21:19:11 xristos: I'm using your plokami library for reading the pcap file 21:19:55 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:20:17 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=user@222.212.143.39] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:20:44 cool 21:22:00 Will (defun blabla (x) (setf x 10) work or not? 21:22:35 cYmen: what do you want it to do (i.e. define "work") :-D 21:22:49 dcrawford: there's something to that. 21:23:04 it will set the lexical variable "x" to 10 and return immediately, where that variable wont be seen again 21:23:12 lispm [n=joswig@e177157113.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:23:29 it won't work due to the missing close paren 21:26:26 -!- lispm_ [n=joswig@f054053035.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:27:34 cYmen, you need to define a setf-function. 21:27:52 cYmen, and then you can only use it through setf. so the only solution in your case would be to define a macro. 21:28:03 I don't really want it to set x where it was I just wanted to make sure it wouldn't work ;) 21:28:21 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:28:59 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a65f94@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b1856aad3edf6079] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:29:35 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:31:39 -!- durka is now known as durkafk 21:32:20 -!- durkafk [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has quit [] 21:32:50 http://web.media.mit.edu/~eslick/langutils/ Anyone ever played with this? 21:32:55 I can't believe I didn't find it before. 21:33:32 ian eslick probably did. He's active on the elephant mailing list. 21:34:29 pkhuong: I meant here, of course. Was trying to get impressions :) 21:34:37 oh, neat. 21:34:38 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 21:35:02 this looks exactly like what I was trying to write myself (except mine is much more limited...) 21:40:40 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:40:40 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:42:36 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:44:21 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:25 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:44:57 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:45:17 Ifur_ [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 21:45:18 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:45:56 -!- Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:46:25 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 21:48:33 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:50:12 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:52:59 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:53:12 AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has joined #lisp 21:55:43 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:56:25 -!- UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:57:37 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:57:48 -!- buccia is now known as Bucciarati 21:58:12 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@63.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 21:58:13 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@239.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:36 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 21:58:50 Ashy [n=User@220.157.86.160] has joined #lisp 21:58:53 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@239.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 22:00:30 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@x-132-204-241-112.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 22:07:21 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:05 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-243.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 22:10:20 lemoinem [n=swoog@x-132-204-241-112.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 22:12:04 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:13:19 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:33 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:53 goldbuick [n=dave@c-98-228-30-254.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:09 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@220.157.86.160] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:16:36 I am looking for dankna ? 22:16:50 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:16:58 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:17:04 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:42 arquebus [i=sdf@201.148.62.228] has joined #lisp 22:18:05 -!- goldbuick [n=dave@c-98-228-30-254.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has left #lisp 22:18:13 anyone know who the common lisp 'gang of five' are? 22:18:25 I know steele is one 22:20:18 arquebus: read "HOPL2-uncut.pdf" and you will find out about the gang of 5000 22:21:46 the prolific community pundits are Steele, Gabriele, Pitman, Norvig, and Graham 22:22:17 and none of them are still quite lispers anymore :( 22:22:33 well, at least 3 of them aren't ;_; 22:23:00 steele went to novell to work on java iirc, norvig's been converted to python, and graham has his own little lisp now. 22:23:03 fusss, thanks, and would you know where I can find HOPL2-uncut? 22:23:33 sykopomp: Wasn't Steele working on Java at Sun? :) 22:24:22 "We weren't after Lisp programmers. We were after C and C++ programmers. We managed to drag them halfway to Lisp." <-- that was a nice quote 22:24:28 heh, yeah 22:24:32 lol at sun*** 22:24:33 arquebus: first hit in google. warning though, it will change you from a lisp programmer to a rabid partisan comrade of the Pioneering Revolutionaries :-D http://www.dreamsongs.org/NewFiles/HOPL2-Uncut.pdf 22:24:34 sorry ;) 22:24:41 sykopomp: Isn't Graham still very much a Lisper with Arc? 22:24:48 yes, steele works at sun, but I think he does a lot of stuff besides Java, there is only so much you can do with Lisp, I wouldnt say Graham has left common lisp, just researching solutions 22:25:11 antoszka: We're talking Common Lispers here when we say 'Lisper' 22:25:42 Mhm. He's actually implementing arc in mzscheme currently FWIR. 22:26:10 fusss-thanks, Im definately not a conformer to commonly accepted programming language standards 22:26:34 arquebus: lisp is for rebels! 22:27:36 sykopomp: yep!! to bad Turing and vonNeumann didnt live long enough to see lisp 22:28:48 arquebus: they wouldn't have needed it, they were not Software Developers. for them a consistent formalism would be just fine. 22:29:34 I would be more curious as to what Ada Lovelace would've done with any given modern language 22:30:10 she would've decried her job as a "computer" was being outsourced to dumb automatons 22:30:40 haha 22:30:52 Ada Lovelace: first programmer? or first computer? 22:30:54 fusss: I think back then she didn't work as a "computer" 22:31:19 anyawy, stupid tape reader destroyed source to her program 22:31:27 *anyway 22:31:34 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:35 fusss- there was a fuzzy line between hardware and software in those days, its too bad that line has been made uncrossable nowadays 22:31:53 arquebus: FPGA 22:32:04 arquebus: wetware 22:32:41 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:32:52 ever find a solution while working around? bam! at that moment, your program has already changed, and you have yet to write a line. when you sit down to type it, you're modifying source code to conform to a mental model. 22:33:00 s/working/walking/ 22:33:13 p_l: Im having a hard time looking up FPGA, what is that? 22:33:24 arquebus: Field-Programmable Gate Arrays 22:33:36 arquebus: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fpga 22:33:41 arquebus: even more important than programming skills are searching skills 22:34:05 the magic of first-hit-results on WP 22:34:41 fusss- yes, did you know that Turing was working on neural network computers? yes that is a good example of something people ignore now 22:34:53 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:48 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 22:36:00 yeah? 22:36:09 -!- Ashy [n=User@220.157.86.160] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:37:05 yes, FPGA looks like a good first step to testing ways to get out of the vonNeumann machine 64 bit highway and use the rest of the 95% of the CPU chip that isnt doing anything but store memory 22:39:11 arquebus: You would fall in love with Cray's calcution-performing RAM modules 22:40:39 p_l- you know what I wish they still made are the old lisp computers, the ones they made at MIT in the 80s, now those had some outragous ammount of registers to work with, in many ways more advanced than todays CPUs 22:40:52 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:40:58 I forget the name of the company that made those computers 22:41:21 p_l: methinks he is better off with 6.004 Computation Structures, on the MIT Open CourseWare sit. 22:41:28 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 22:41:45 arquebus: They were called clusters, methinks ;-) 22:42:02 I'll look it up 22:42:32 at least that's what I remember as "the super advanced computer from MIT in 80's" 22:43:13 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine 22:43:28 p_l: the only "lisp computers" made in MIT in the 80s are the Lisp Machines. Ummm 22:44:04 fusss: what about "The Connection Machine"? Basically a message-passing massively-parallel closely coupled cluster, programmed in special-purpose Lisp dialect 22:44:30 as far as I know it was designed at MIT, then made into commercial product, and failed 22:44:33 -!- deximer [n=deximer@131.239.45.198] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:44:48 Lisp Machines were built afaik since 70s 22:44:58 p_l: alright. but it's not like Humanity deteriorated and clusters fell out of favor. 22:45:05 <_3b> connection machines weren't clusters were they? more big pile of small chips with special interconnects 22:45:30 <_3b> (and a workstation tacked onto the front) 22:45:31 fusss- I recommend the book 'The Essential Turing', the author did extensive investigation into all of Turings research 22:45:32 p_l: they didn't fail, Symbolics was a WILD success actually. 22:45:46 well... 22:45:51 fusss: I am writing about Connection Machine 22:45:55 oh 22:46:33 _3b: It was a the level where closely-coupled cluster and single computer are no longer different 22:47:04 <_3b> i mean more that the individual CPUs didn't really count as computers 22:47:04 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:47:43 _3b: But I'm pretty sure the whole node would count 22:48:06 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:48:14 <_3b> dunno, not really relevant either way :) 22:48:25 -!- jajcloz_ [n=jaj@pool-98-118-118-197.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:48:43 i usually think of Lisp machines in terms of "very personable personal computers", not as high performance speeds demons 22:49:14 it's more of a terminology problem. Do you call Cray T3E a SSI cluster or a single computer? Does a multi-socket amd64 machine count as a shared-memory cluster or single computer? 22:49:32 <_3b> right, that's what i mean 22:49:56 <_3b> deciding if a CM is or isn't a cluster doesn't say anything useful 22:50:02 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 22:50:21 *_3b* still needs a newer GPU though, to try to pretend it is a connection machine :) 22:50:50 anyway, I'm not really sure if a Lisp Machine cpu counts as "more advanced than today's CPU" :) 22:51:07 yeah, or has "much more registers" 22:51:10 well, more advanced than x86 family, it might be.... 22:51:15 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:51:31 everything but the 68x is more advanced than the x86 22:51:33 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:51:48 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:52:08 I think "much more registers" title is owned by IA-64 and MMIX (of non-vector cpus) 22:52:42 <_3b> wonder how much rendering the light panels from a CM would slow down GPU calc 22:53:10 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:53:57 -!- persi [n=user@ec2-72-44-44-74.z-2.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 22:54:20 _3b: Depends how much you are willing to use for that, I think... 22:54:25 p_l: I see IA-64, I remember MIPS and I could weep. 22:54:26 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 22:54:42 also, for CM-class calculations, buy a FireGL or Quadro 22:55:12 fusss: I would happily switch if someone gave me an Alpha designed with current technology level.... 22:55:36 it would be a bitch to deal with all problems it might cause to some apps, but I'd be much happier :) 22:55:43 persi [n=user@ec2-72-44-44-74.z-2.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 22:55:49 <_3b> dunno, i figure anything newer than an 8800 should be competitive with a real CM (though obviously one of the 4GB tesla would be better) (or a CM sized rack of teslas for extra fun :) 22:55:58 MMIX in hw would be fine too 22:56:27 SSA in hardware :-P~ 22:56:31 _3b: Don't use normal GeForce or Radeons as equivalents of CM 22:56:33 <_3b> if i remember right, the original 8800s were missing a feature to mimic CM easily 22:56:41 <_3b> p_l: why not? 22:56:47 brb 22:57:01 <_3b> it would limit it to 1Gb or less, but that is about it 22:57:10 <_3b> 1GB or less i mean 22:57:37 _3b: They 1) can't do anything other than single precision 2) they round calculations and cut corners, giving you inexact results (even for integer I think), traded for speed 22:57:42 cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:58:19 <_3b> nah, FP precision is same as far as i know, and none of them do double precision quickly anyway 22:58:31 <_3b> (on NV at least, haven't used ATI in a while) 22:58:57 While a current Quadro (or Tesla) have hw 128bit floats, and actually implement OGL correctly (which has some important meanings for computation) 22:59:10 <_3b> i'd use CUDA for computation anyway 22:59:18 _3b: Doesn't matter 22:59:24 it's a hw thing 22:59:33 <_3b> hmm, any references? 23:00:04 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@x-132-204-241-112.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 23:00:15 <_3b> (not that i have any serious use that needs accuracy anyway though :) 23:00:33 The thing is, OGL requires that results have to be exact. consumer-grade cards cut corners, since your eye won't recognize anything. However, since you are doing calculations using the same pathways, it affects it 23:00:39 <_3b> more interested in just learning the tech currently, so consumer cards would be fine for that 23:01:38 well, my father got a gf 260 for the moment. Maybe if we will get enough money we will simply get either nVidia or ATi special computation card 23:02:03 _3b: You might be also interested in OpenCL 23:02:18 <_3b> yeah, aren't any details about it yet though, are there? 23:02:30 hefner: apologies for slow pcap code, written at the peak of my still-ongoing crusade to produce inefficient programs :) 23:02:44 _3b: The most important detail seems that MS is unwilling to help :P 23:02:46 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:02:53 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF46F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:02:55 <_3b> yep :( 23:03:57 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:03:58 Though I think we will see support for it anyway. 23:04:25 I'm pretty sure producers of ANSYS, MATLAB etc. would rather use one API 23:04:52 hefner: the cutest impl I've seen recently is this one: http://piumarta.com/svn2/idst/trunk/function/examples2/tcp/structure.k which converts from ascii-art diagrams like this: http://piumarta.com/svn2/idst/trunk/function/examples2/tcp/ to structure-parsing implementation 23:04:59 <_3b> yeah, nv and ati would probably benefit more from more apps than lockin too 23:05:46 ths [n=ths@X4d9d.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 23:06:05 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 2.0.0.18/2008102918]"] 23:06:41 I know that at the moment MATLAB uses CUDA, but it would be better to support one API, especially if someone ports OpenCL to use Cell 23:06:43 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 23:09:46 LivingCorpse [i=admin@dyn13-202.wireless.vcsu.edu] has joined #lisp 23:11:55 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 23:12:24 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D453.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:20:49 -!- arquebus [i=sdf@201.148.62.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:24:48 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:27:28 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.222.9] has joined #lisp 23:28:36 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:28:53 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:12 p_l: my understanding was that the difference between a Geforce Bla and the equivalent quattro was not a hardware accuracy thing but a certification and drivers issue 23:31:34 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.187.188] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:31:37 (safer drivers, in particular; see Raymond Chen for why graphics cards drivers are a bit dodgy) 23:31:37 rsynnott: maybe before GPGPU 23:31:40 could be wrong, though 23:32:07 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.72.93] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:32:16 nowadays the main difference is that Quadro doesn't cut corners in computation of anything, as well as has 128bit floats 23:32:17 <_3b> drivers are tuned for different features/usage too 23:32:33 (if nothing else, I'd be quite surprised if they were actually making completely different chips for the professional market; the cost of doing so would be considerable 23:32:53 rsynnott: That's why GeForce sales are sponsoring Quadro 23:33:03 cause around GeForce 4 they stopped being the same chip 23:33:06 _3b: well, the quadro drivers are probably less likely to either crash the computer or do silly things with data 23:33:08 <_3b> quadro/tesla also have much more ram available 23:33:36 the only situation where Quadro and GeForce mean the same are probably the lowest-end onboard Quadro NVX stuff 23:33:37 graphics card companies at least used to cut considerable corners in the drivers for the sake of doing well in benchmarks 23:33:44 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 23:33:47 rsynnott: They moved that to hw 23:33:57 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 23:34:12 anyway, current Quadro and GeForce are completely different chips 23:34:43 -!- ehu` [n=chatzill@82-170-33-173.ip.telfort.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:34:50 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 23:34:54 ah, it appears that they have different firmware and possibly microcode 23:35:06 rsynnott: hardware too 23:35:21 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:35:26 also, GPUs are not microcoded 23:35:59 even intel's Larrabee uses a P54, which was afaik non-microcoded core 23:36:23 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:55 (I think for intel it was P6 when they introduced microcode, and K5 for AMD) 23:39:50 early IA32 chips were certainly microcoded 23:40:34 they have have taken a holiday from it at some point (in fact that could be one of the ways that the p5 was made faster) but 386 and 486 used microcode 23:40:46 though I don't think it was user-modifiable, as in current chips 23:41:03 EtFb [n=etfb@mail.hatrix.com] has joined #lisp 23:41:40 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:10 -!- pauleeallen52 [n=greg@70-59-118-134.mpls.qwest.net] has left #lisp 23:44:47 rsynnott: I think 386 and 486 were microcoded only for few instructions, while P6 used microcode for everything except few simplest instructions 23:44:48 -!- LivingCorpse [i=admin@dyn13-202.wireless.vcsu.edu] has quit [] 23:47:17 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:38 esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 23:49:46 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska182223.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:49:48 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@115.147.99.198] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:51:57 rsynnott: there's still microcode around for slow instructions that are only around for hysterical raisins. 23:52:08 ... AMD Swift might be a _very_ interesting arch to code for... :) 23:52:12 pkhuong: oh, yes, I know 23:52:42 the PPC970 has ridiculous numbers of microcoded instructions 23:52:50 (for compatibility with the POWER4) 23:53:13 (I believe the POWER6 lies somewhere in between, with a lot of the old POWER baggage now microcoded) 23:53:33 rsynnott: That's because POWER and PPC are far from RISC :) 23:53:48 well, PPC was much closer to "reduced instruction set" than POWER 23:54:10 IBM seems to have effectively merged them at this point 23:54:13 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:54:18 (as far as their own PPCs go) 23:54:34 rsynnott: 970 is fully compatible AFAIK with both POWER and PPC variants 23:54:45 slower POWER6s occupy niches traditionally associated with PPCs 23:54:59 p_l: not entirely, with either, I don't think 23:55:16 didn't they only support big-endian operation? 23:55:22 rsynnott: as opposed to the >5 GHz POWER6s? (: 23:55:22 (PPC supports both) 23:55:34 pkhuong: indeed; they're REALLY expensive 23:55:52 but you can get blade servers with 3-4GHZ ones for quite un-IBMlike proces 23:55:55 *prices 23:56:01 rsynnott: i imagine they're also pretty bad on the power/thermal budget. 23:56:16 (roughly similar to the old PPC970/G5 blades) 23:56:19 pkhuong: Ever imagined what it feels like to drop a p570 server module? I was close to... 23:56:36 pkhuong: ah, well, not horrendous, surely 23:56:37 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.222.9] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:56:56 -!- lillin [n=lillin@211.201.172.41] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:57:08 rsynnott: They are bad enough that when you feel cold in datacenter, you go to stand behind an IBM rack 23:57:13 they should beat netburst on performace-per-watt, anyway... 23:57:40 with NetBurst, we would be cooking in the datacenter, I think... :D 23:59:21 they occupy a weird little niche, actually; absolutely the fastest single cores you can get, if you care about that 23:59:43 but otherwise, don't make sense for anything much unless you're absolutely dependent on IBM hardware