00:03:56 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:04:24 jaoswald [n=user@74.73.49.134] has joined #lisp 00:05:17 -!- Athas`` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:05:20 Athas`` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 00:07:46 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:08:01 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-85.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:08:45 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 00:09:00 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-168-233.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:09:06 evenin' 00:09:58 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-133-122.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:11:06 evenin' fusss 00:13:17 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["All these memories will be lost, like tears in rain."] 00:14:36 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F87F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:14:58 -!- bobo__ [n=bobo@77.28.30.197] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:16:07 bobo__ [n=bobo@77.28.2.185] has joined #lisp 00:16:35 -!- bobo__ is now known as zrak 00:16:58 how to execute a .fas file with clisp? 00:17:06 fe[nl]ix, weirdo: nice bug :| 00:17:39 zrak, simply LOAD the file, fasls take precedence 00:17:39 weirdo, memo from attila_lendvai: thanks for the bisecting! 00:17:39 weirdo, memo from attila_lendvai: pull our postmodern branch and cl-rdbms. i've added the deadlock stuff... cl-rdbms:deadlock-detected-error 00:18:04 minion, help 00:18:05 There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms". 00:18:09 minion, help memos 00:18:10 To send a memo, say something like ``minion: memo for nick: the memo''. I'll remember the memo for any nick which is the same as the given nick, +/- differences in punctuation, and any nick which is an alias for it, and give it to them when they next speak. 00:18:22 Draggor1 [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:27 oops. sorry for flooding the channel 00:18:52 method_body_info.param_type[x]; the bane of my existance :-P it means type inference in any lisp trying to target flash. static type inference with compiler hints, or Self93 style type-feedback system based on instrumented code, which is stripped before delivery. hmmmm 00:18:56 -!- Draggor [n=weblair@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 00:19:28 _3b: are you handling parameter types? 00:19:59 <_3b> fusss: no typing at all currently, just casting everything to * 00:20:42 fusss pasted "method expansion crap" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71281 00:20:48 -!- Draggor1 is now known as Draggor 00:20:57 -!- perv [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:40 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit ["HULK ANGRY! HULK DISCONNECT!"] 00:22:07 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 00:22:07 i think i'm gonna need a heavily decorated intermediate representation; flash demands a good type inference for generated code. 00:22:27 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-013-248.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:29 <_3b> yeah, that's why i just use * for now 00:22:30 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-169.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 00:22:51 <_3b> eventually i'll add some type inference, but that is just a speed optimization, so features come first :) 00:23:35 <_3b> wouldn't those be (get-local p1) or something like that? 00:23:48 yes 00:24:14 i'm trying to target a lisp friendly "vm", like VOPs, which ten get translated to a final avm2 assembly 00:24:49 def-method == define-vop 00:25:42 <_3b> cool, haven't decide what i want to do for smarter IR yet 00:26:50 me neither 00:27:27 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:27:53 clisp has a proven and well documented set of bytecode instructions. is it safe to copy them? 00:28:10 <_3b> no idea 00:28:15 -!- Jarvellis is now known as ChiefElitist 00:28:32 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:28:41 <_3b> no idea if they would even be useful 00:30:02 the opcodes sorta mirror the ones Quinnec has in LiSP. but bytecode generation might be premature. 00:30:44 if you just want something that's easy to emit and interpret, you can probably do much better than clisp, which does try to go for performance too. 00:30:48 i think we can get away with decorated AST with heavy type annotations and keep rewriting that to a simple core that maps in the native bytecode. 00:30:58 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.193.135] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:31:05 <_3b> yeah, that sounds more like what i was thinking 00:32:17 <_3b> possibly with a 3-address version of the avm2 bytecode as the final IR for some optimization pass 00:32:48 *_3b* wonders what the flash VM would think of getting code in SSA form 00:33:00 have you looked at the code optimization literature for stack machines? it's scarce! compared to register machines 00:33:11 <_3b> avm isn't really a stack machine though 00:33:43 fusss: it's also somewhat simpler, within the realms of what isn't universally intractable. 00:33:51 _3b: SSA will not buy you anything on flash. i think you're better of with forth or some such. SSA is RISC in its purest form. 00:34:00 <_3b> and most of the optimizations i'd probably want to do are pretty generic, moving tests to end of loop, removing dead code, that sort of thing 00:34:30 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-006-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:50 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:35:03 <_3b> SSA would simplify typing, for example if a lisp level var gets used with multiple types, you have to be careful not to trip the verifier in the VM... if registers only get assigned once though, you don't have that problem 00:35:10 pkhuong: what is simpler? code generation for stack machines? yeah, it's straight post order walk of the ast, but more could be done 00:35:18 <_3b> and there are effectively infinite registers available :) 00:35:55 fusss: i mean doing it well, not just enough to work. 00:36:12 pkhuong: oh, ok 00:36:38 _3b: what is your current development environment? AS compiler, decompiler, assembler, etc. if any? 00:37:39 <_3b> i use an as compiler and disassembler from some open source adobe thing (flex maybe?) don't remember exactly what it was though 00:38:17 _3b: they have a disassembler therein? i have the OS flex sdk, which binary is the disassember? 00:38:27 <_3b> swfdump 00:38:48 <_3b> ./swfdump -asm -abc foo.swf > foo.txt is what i use 00:38:59 fusss: alternatively one could also say that it's harder to express some trickery on stack machines ;) 00:41:15 _3b: cool! thanks 00:41:29 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-151-204-133-122.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:17 <_3b> unfortunately, swfdump and flas player don't always agree on what is invalid in a .swf file though :( 00:42:47 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:43:02 _3b: maybe swfdump groks AS2 and avm+ and not the new AS3 and AVM2? 00:43:26 <_3b> no, it mostly works 00:43:41 <_3b> just sometimes it doesn't complain about things flash player does, or the other way around 00:46:36 ok 00:47:02 -!- Athas`` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:47:53 my my my. with swftools you can actually generate clips and embed them in gordon. this is good stuff, too bad gordon is behind the times :-P 00:52:34 -!- naiv` [n=user@ARennes-356-1-8-121.w86-214.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:53:34 luis: i'll try and commit your patch later tonight 00:54:12 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:56:06 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 00:57:30 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@204.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 00:57:52 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 00:58:00 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:44 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:59:04 persi [n=user@adsl-4-102-202.cae.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 01:01:15 -!- ChiefElitist is now known as Jarvellis 01:02:58 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.23.128] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:05:03 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.181.237] has joined #lisp 01:09:34 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:17:46 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:19:22 -!- delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:24:50 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-169.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 01:25:02 -!- zrak [n=bobo@77.28.2.185] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:25:04 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:26:00 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-169.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 01:26:33 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.181.237] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:31:59 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 01:33:29 jjong [n=jjong@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 01:35:20 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.181.237] has joined #lisp 01:38:47 crod [n=cmell@cb8a16-024.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:39:04 <_deepfire> minion, memo for foom: the "mips64" buildbot is up once again and waiting to be re-enrolled in the waterfall. 01:39:04 Remembered. I'll tell foom when he/she/it next speaks. 01:40:03 -!- yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has quit ["  ."] 01:40:59 bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:41:04 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a94-194.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:41:13 ths_ [n=ths@X669a.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:44:44 *sigh* xach has more useful code in /tmp than i do at ~/work :-D 01:46:11 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 01:48:58 -!- ths [n=ths@X46cf.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:53:35 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.84.242] has joined #lisp 01:54:10 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:54:55 kidd1 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:12 something [n=afeng@173-18-223-46.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:55:58 electricfeel [n=electric@unaffiliated/electricfeel] has joined #lisp 01:56:13 is there a function that upper cases a string? I looked in hyperspec I didn't find anything.. maybe in some 3rd party lib? 01:56:50 something like string-upcase? 01:57:16 -!- ebzzry__ [n=rmm@124.217.73.25] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:57:27 hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:57:40 know of any papers describing nested quasiquotation? 01:58:33 alan bawden wrote about that 01:58:51 pkhuong: yes.. I didn't see that in hyperspec.. 01:58:52 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:59:07 pkhuong: I must missed it... thanks 01:59:37 weirdo: covers the topic a bit 01:59:47 I found a very neat implementation of it by an André van tonder 02:00:08 can't remember where though 02:00:09 pkhuong, thank you 02:00:46 i'm not so much for writing one as for understanging why to write ,',foo instead of ,,foo 02:01:07 te [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-2c5af274aebae4e5] has joined #lisp 02:01:10 aha, ok 02:01:20 I have an array, in which i am trying to fill with values until a certain condition is met, and i am trying to use backtracking... but am running into an issue when the current recursive call unwinds... will paste 02:01:25 im a beginner here -- is SBCL okay to use? 02:01:33 have a suggestion? 02:01:42 weirdo: but this one was beautiful, as a scheme define-syntax :-) 02:01:43 te: sbcl is okay 02:01:44 sbcl is great. 02:01:46 3 02:01:47 <3 02:01:50 thanks :) 02:02:18 sbcl doesn't boast its native compiler nearly enough :) 02:02:27 when i first ran lisp, i thought it was interpreted 02:02:50 A lot of people still think lisp runs interpreted, exclusively 02:02:58 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 02:04:08 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:05:28 i nearly kicked my duron box in anger when i saw cmucl was "implemented" in python :-D 02:05:59 there's no separate compilation stage so it's natural to think it's interpreted 02:06:10 fusss: you still have a duron running? :D 02:06:18 this was 2002 02:06:42 that's python the browser 02:06:44 I mean compiler 02:06:48 not python the language 02:07:08 i found that quickly 02:07:11 ahh 02:07:20 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["CANada > AmeriCANTs"] 02:07:37 it is an unfortunate collision of names 02:08:26 of course, I think it's silly to give such a cutesy name to the compiler anyway 02:08:29 python the compiler was named earlier than guido's scripting language 02:10:19 why can't we call the compiler something like "Spice"? sounds exotic! 02:10:43 -!- something [n=afeng@173-18-223-46.client.mchsi.com] has quit [] 02:10:55 how about sandworm? that's at least the same shape as a python. 02:12:28 heh 02:14:36 not a very positive sounding name though 02:14:44 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:15:06 <_deepfire> rvirding, have you read Dune series? 02:15:30 yes, well the first 4 or so anyway 02:15:39 /usr/bin/spice-must-flow (interpreter), /usr/bin/process-spice (compiler), /usr/bin/fear-is-the-mind-killer (debugger) 02:16:14 <_deepfire> What's with spatial trees, btw? Can't find any live repositories.. 02:16:25 but think of all who haven't read them and get negative feeling 02:16:47 _deepfire: http://ftp.linux.org.uk/pub/lisp/cclan/spatial-trees-0.2.tar.gz seems like to me 02:17:06 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:17:12 *live 02:17:23 <_deepfire> hefner, I'd vastly prefer a vcs repository.. 02:17:29 ah. 02:18:50 hah. I'm using version 0.1, installed via asdf-install over a year ago. I wonder what wondrous improvements versoin 0.2 offers me. 02:19:07 <_deepfire> I didn't have implemented tarball->git import path yet. 02:20:30 <_deepfire> In fact I'm not sure I want to. 02:22:25 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:24:58 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 02:26:33 is checking an objects type considered bad form in lisp? 02:27:57 i have a function that returns NIL and array's. i only want to perform an action on the return value if it's an array 02:28:11 returns nil or an array 02:28:24 i guess i could just check to see if it's nil.. 02:29:16 you could use etypecase, which also doubles as minimal documentation. 02:30:23 the simplest way would be simply test if it's nil, right? 02:30:32 because there are only 2 options, nil, or simple-array 02:30:45 not nil, rather 02:32:13 you can do it however you like. (let ((thing (returns-nil-or-array ..))) (when thing ...)) 02:32:50 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 02:33:09 any work being done for smaller sbcl standalone executables? 02:33:45 hefner: that's exactly what i ended up doing 02:34:00 weirdo: I believe it's on nyef's queue, and probably even farther down mine. 02:34:49 will the ruby troll ever go away? 02:35:09 wouldn't it be more fun to convert him? 02:36:00 Maybe if the Ruby troll suffers a programming accident, he will go away 02:37:14 -!- alpheus` [n=user@c-98-213-176-16.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:40:13 trace is awesome 02:43:54 what the...? some guy wrote that conses no longer match in hash tables with :test #'eq when changed on copying gc's 02:43:56 is that true? 02:44:04 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 02:44:13 that is absurd. 02:44:23 He's wrong 02:44:28 He got confused about sxhash 02:44:45 sxhash' 02:44:52 sxhash's for #'equal, right? 02:45:01 IIRC, yes 02:48:12 Here is, I fear, a FAQ: In ASDF how do I specify a component that is to be loaded *only* in order to perform a test-op, and NOT to perform a load-op? 02:48:13 rpg, memo from chandler: unified context diffs (-u), please! 02:50:53 what's a nice little intro program to write for a beginner? 02:51:37 te: Simple symbolic differentiation is easy and revealing IMO 02:52:30 i dont know what that looks like 02:54:22 te: It is basically just one function that takes in an expression (in lisp form), a COND, some recursion, and some backquoting 02:54:44 do you have one example? 02:55:23 te: I believe there's a discussion of this process in Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs... 02:55:50 thanks rpg 02:57:24 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 02:58:17 te, maybe write a naive context-free grammar parser 02:58:51 qbg pasted "Small example for te" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71293 02:59:01 thanks qbg 02:59:01 weirdo: You mean a recursive-descent parser? 02:59:04 I recommend a disassembler for your favorite antiquated CPU 02:59:10 ^^ haha 03:00:12 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:20 WARNING: LOOP: After THE a plural loop keyword is required, not HASH-KEY 03:00:33 huh? 03:00:39 mbac: paste the code 03:00:42 loop isn't standard? 03:00:54 rpg, yeah 03:00:58 mbac: yes. It does not mean in any way that your code is. 03:01:39 (loop for key being the hash-key of stuff-to-do using (hash-value value) 03:01:57 I think you want hash-keys 03:03:27 huh. i guess i do. 03:04:37 (define (square x) (* x x)) 03:04:43 How does this look when using defun? 03:04:49 (defun square (x) (* x x)) 03:04:50 (defun square (x) (* x x)) 03:04:56 thanks 03:04:58 *hefner* wins 03:05:13 *qbg* was ninja'd 03:05:22 PwN3d 03:06:07 I do really like the scheme syntax here. It reads like a rewrite rule to me. 03:08:15 -!- electricfeel [n=electric@unaffiliated/electricfeel] has quit [] 03:09:21 is there a way to poke at functions in lisp to find out how they're constructed 03:09:36 Do you mean view source? 03:09:48 hm, i was thinking within the interpreter 03:10:02 but i was thinking kind of like in the object oriented sense where you can view ancestors of an object 03:10:10 is there a way to view functions used within a function? 03:10:26 DISASSEMBLE :p 03:10:38 like i created a function 'f', that includes 'sum-of-squares' that includes 'square' 03:12:29 *hefner* is reminded to investigate the state of the xref facility, which sounded really cool in 2003 when cmucl gained one 03:12:36 isn't there a library that lets you inline C/assembly code? I thought I'd seen one on cliki sometime 03:13:36 sykopomp: cinline doesn't do inline c as much as let you define C functions that you can call through the FFI inline. 03:14:25 I wonder how I didn't find that when I searched a couple weeks ago.. 03:15:44 hefner: the author's college-provided website has disappeared. 03:15:48 te: what lisp are you using? Often if you are using interpreted lisp (instead of compiled), you can examine the definition.... 03:15:56 rpg: sbcl 03:16:03 gosh how i hate exim. looks like writing an MTA in lisp is the only option 03:16:33 CLISP is a bit nicer than SBCL in saving the source 03:16:51 qbg: saving source location is more useful. 03:17:18 True, but that doesn't work for functions defined at the REPL 03:17:35 structure and interpretation of computer programs is a fantastic book 03:17:42 it looks like the lecture i was just watching by sussman 03:17:48 pkhuong: unfortunate. I was curious about something like this recently, idly wondering if it would make a workable way to interface to C++ or anything else where you just need little bits of glue callable as C. 03:17:49 it's probably from the same site... 03:17:57 -!- jaoswald [n=user@74.73.49.134] has quit ["ERC Version 5.1.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:18:02 weirdo: happy postfix user here 03:18:14 postfix is even worse 03:18:18 hefner: mixed with tcc for added awesomeness? (: 03:18:56 te, in sbcl on default optimization settings, DESCRIBE shows the function's source 03:19:04 weirdo: thanks man 03:19:10 pkhuong: I guess.. doesn't seem like it'd help you compile C++ code 03:19:25 (SB-INT:NAMED-LAMBDA SQUARE (X) (BLOCK SQUARE (* X X))) 03:19:58 weirdo: did you do that by using (describe (square))? 03:20:07 (describe 'square) 03:20:19 ah-ha, thanks 03:20:39 the 'quote means... (/me studies) 03:20:46 hefner: right... Name mangling is almost doable, but all the vtable stuff seems like a lost cause. 03:21:34 te, read practical common lisp 03:21:41 weirdo: working on it 03:22:40 ah i see 03:22:57 Wait a second, if SBCL is now saving the source of functions, why doesn't it return it from FUNCTION-LAMBDA-EXPRESSION? 03:23:41 so instead of lisp saying "oh look we're describing square, where square is a part of our tree with several pieces to it" 03:23:55 it says "we're just looking at 'square', as such" 03:24:16 is that a good way of putting it? 03:24:28 (describe (square)) would describe the return value of (square) 03:24:51 Which would generate an error because square isn't getting enough arguments 03:24:56 qbg: it's not relaying exactly the same information that f-l-e should return. 03:25:24 qbg: but is it absolutely ignoring that square in fact has a return value when you quote it? 03:25:44 te: 'square evaluates to the symbol SQUARE 03:26:05 te: try reading a bit more, it should be clearer after that than you can expect it to be if you try to only learn via IRC. 03:26:15 yeah i was just wondering if there was any voodoo going on in the background 03:26:52 te, PCL will help you a lot if only you programmed in another language 03:30:22 kreuter: unfair, sourceforge's cvs doesn't want to work for me 03:31:27 tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has joined #lisp 03:35:16 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:04 what's the most productive way to do webapps by now? 03:41:33 weirdo: Something that isn't a preprocessor? 03:41:40 *te* giggles 03:42:30 good languages help too 03:42:35 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:48 p_l, new stuff confuses me. there's widgets and call/cc, i usually store state in sessions or cookies 03:42:55 perhaps it's time to change 03:42:59 fortran is the only way to write webapps 03:43:08 weirdo: storing them in sessions is good too 03:43:22 te: I'd take Fortran over PHP, I think 03:43:33 haha 03:43:34 i'm thinking about writing a scheme in javascript and retrieving objects through RPC 03:43:38 PHP does indeed blow 03:43:52 te: Assuming It won't be 'FORTRAN Hypertext Preprocessor 03:43:52 by now they teach php in state universities 03:43:57 they really do 03:44:10 that's true up to a point 03:44:13 weirdo: Thankfully not at mine, even if most of our IT infrastructure blows worse than PHP 03:44:26 it seems that the webapps course changed to Rails. 03:44:41 some of the web related stuff might be done in PHP, though 03:44:49 they teach PHP in departments of state universities where non-programmers need to learn programming 03:44:59 ive never heard of PHP being offered in a CompSci dept. 03:45:04 Can't have much faith in my CS degree when they teach me Java 03:45:34 Even my advisor agreed with me that it blows :P 03:45:45 If you're in this channel, you can have faith in your skills as a CS major. 03:45:53 in general.... 03:46:15 There are plenty of CS majors who don't do a damn bit of their own investigation. 03:46:26 UCLA has ocaml and scheme 03:46:31 ! 03:46:39 MIT has lisp still 03:46:41 no? 03:46:50 java... 03:46:55 are you joking me? 03:47:05 heard they switched to java over scheme 03:47:12 no. fucking. way. 03:47:20 that is sad 03:47:22 can anyone confirm? 03:47:27 not true 03:47:35 in later courses, yes, they use Java 03:47:43 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.181.237] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:47:57 I'm porting some code to sbcl from cmucl. Does with-slots on structures still work? 03:47:57 weirdo: python at first, mostly. 03:47:58 but 6.001 still kicks everyone in vital points using Scheme & SICP 03:48:14 p_l: not everyone, not anymore. 03:48:15 at the UW-Madison, they offer a course that amounts to "teach yourself a programming language", and you submit your own work to your instructor 03:48:18 hefner, slot-value on slots works, yes 03:48:25 uh, on structure slots 03:48:32 class-slots works too :) 03:48:47 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:48:47 pkhuong: AFAIK if you do it the old way, i.e. with 6.001, you still go SICP route? 03:49:06 is 6.001 a version number or a course number from MIT? 03:49:17 te: course number for introduction to programming 03:49:18 p_l: I don't know. 03:49:24 p_l: ah 03:49:45 6 means either EECS or CS, I don't remember, 001 I think you can guess 03:50:05 6 is EECS 03:50:47 well, I didn't make it to MIT anyway, if not for SICP I'd probably forget those numbers :) 03:50:51 it looks like python is the majority of 6.0001 03:50:54 6.001* 03:51:16 happened yet again. debugging "non working" code just to realize i have been evaluating in the *scratch* buffer which defaults to elisp :-P 03:51:30 ... what? The last time I checked, it was not there... 03:51:45 *p_l* had his hopes crushed. 03:51:48 http://ocw.mit.edu/OcwWeb/Electrical-Engineering-and-Computer-Science/6-844Spring2003/CourseHome/index.htm 03:53:08 well, my course requires me to use not only Java, but BlueJ to as environment... 03:53:20 gross. 03:55:57 does cells-gtk work with sockets? 03:56:34 multiple threads aren't feasible, since then cells would fire in different threads bringing in all sorts of locking problems 03:56:35 lichtblau: did you see gbyers response to my post on openmcl-devel? 03:58:31 weirdo: Why not confine gui (presentation layer?) into one thread, and have it communicate in other ways with the rest of the program? 03:58:42 without sockets 03:58:44 ramus` [n=ramus@75.33.252.18] has joined #lisp 03:58:54 1/part 03:58:59 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@75.33.252.18] has left #lisp 03:59:48 and evening everyone 04:00:00 wow. lukego drew a great ascii art tcp state diagram in slitch. 04:00:50 p_l, cells-gtk has a main loop which can receive events and fire cells 04:01:53 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:03:03 weirdo: Well, my idea would be to put that loop in one thread, with a more presentation-specific datastructure as state, and communicate with other threads through queues or other _internal_ IPC 04:06:31 p_l: that's sound, but what if he wants the gui to be reactive? have the cells issue gui manipulation commands and let the gui thread read from a queue? sounds too much work 04:08:37 thought cells-gtk already has something like that 04:08:49 appears that the main loop does nothing but receive gtk events 04:09:06 qw_ [i=bono@118-160-174-42.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:27 ack! the last mailman day of 2008 is upon us. 04:11:03 I don't know about cells-gtk (or gtk in general), but in both Qt and McCLIM I've successfully used the approach of doing some kind of IO in a separate thread which posts instances of a custom event class to the GUI's event queue, to be handled in the GUI thread 04:13:26 huh. I wonder if I could use my R bridge to use R's java bridge to call java code from lisp. 04:14:12 imagine the fun you could have if you added a java to lisp bridge and joined in a circle 04:14:52 heh 04:15:44 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 04:16:08 -!- gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-94fd62b146c6c2ac] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 04:17:33 -!- topo [n=topo@210.pool85-58-26.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 04:24:14 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:27:04 slyrus_: There is a Lisp-Java bridge, though I don't know how much of it works these days 04:27:19 p_l: yeah, I was sort of making a lame joke. 04:27:25 what does genera do upon OOM conditions? 04:27:41 perv [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has joined #lisp 04:28:14 hmmm... I never pushed it to OOM... it killed itself a lot without me trying to do anything most of the time 04:28:27 ha! 04:28:50 weirdo: Don't run OpenGenera with a tiling WM 04:28:51 no fair running it on some cobbled together emulator 04:29:35 too bad it's obsolete 04:29:46 hefner: I think the bigger issue was that it wasn't really prepared to be unable to specify size of it's window 04:29:55 and writing a lisp-based os on stock hardware would be too much of a hassle 04:30:26 the emulator itself isn't really an emulator 04:30:34 weirdo: why is that? 04:30:45 though I'd like to see the code that did the conversion 04:31:43 pkhuong, undocumented hardware, then having to write a network stack, a compiler, allocator, a file system etc 04:32:05 people from openbsd struggle a lot with lack of hardware documentation 04:32:12 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:32:54 weirdo: The only really undocumented hw that you can see in "stock" hw is graphics and wireless 04:33:03 and USB gizmos, of course 04:33:22 and even then, for graphics, you have a documented common baseline. 04:33:45 still, writing an OS is much work 04:33:57 and that completely ignores the issue of htf does having non-standard hardware help with writing infrastructure? 04:34:01 unless one is a genius like matt dillon 04:34:14 -!- jjong [n=jjong@203.246.179.177] has left #lisp 04:34:25 as for what would be needed... L4, a thin, basic runtime, a GC supporting code sharing on a large scale + maybe a limited dialect of Lisp to use in some sections of code that need to play directly with HW 04:35:00 -!- dpb9 [i=dboswell@166-70-103-139.ip.xmission.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:35:06 durka [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has joined #lisp 04:35:15 with that setup, you can use Linux for IO until you get your own drivers 04:35:15 there's movitz, but it doesn't have any multitasking 04:35:20 the real problem with a lisp OS is a wanting a suitably industrial strength lisp to run 04:35:45 for all its strengths, a single instance of something like sbcl would make an incredibly crappy operating system 04:36:12 (hmm, good thing nyef isn't around to hear that) 04:36:15 is allegro/lispworks all that better? 04:37:16 I wouldn't know. 04:37:31 hefner: the code sharing I mentioned would be to share parts of image between different tasks. L4 would run scheduler, MMU and interrupts, processes would share parts of code from runtime. 04:38:38 -!- isomer [n=isomer@001310E6CB31.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 04:38:46 rather doable, but I'm not interested :) 04:38:56 mop slot-definition-readers 04:39:16 I must be on specbot's blacklist. 04:39:50 afk 04:40:54 hefner: mop isn't in specbot's DB, according to the doc (!?) 04:41:16 I could have sworn it was. 04:41:29 same here. 04:41:58 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 04:45:22 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:49:41 _3b: here is a chapter on type checking from EoPL that's available online :-) ftp://ftp.cs.indiana.edu/pub/eopl/ch13.ps 04:49:55 funny thing. I've been here happily chugging through this code of lukego's, converting structs to classes and expunging his mop-driven autoexport hack, and only now when I'm done do I read the code and decide I don't really like it :) 04:50:41 code for what? 04:51:23 his file from netkit full of packet parsers for ip and friends 04:51:28 people who want a "lispOS" should try stumpwm first. feels like performing open heart surgery in a farmer's market. sometimes you /really/ don't want that much access to the internals of your system. 04:52:21 But stumpwm is awesome 04:52:41 hefner: maybe you could retarget VPRI's stuff to output CL instead of Pepsi; that would probably make lukego happy too ;) 04:53:35 he just gets to have all the fun. 04:53:55 <_3b> fusss: cool, will have to read that at some point 04:54:09 np 04:54:18 it's tiling :/ 04:55:21 once i ran it and it crashed. the horror, the horror 04:55:38 How long ago? 04:55:44 several months ago 04:55:54 Try a more recent one then I guess 04:56:10 It catches a lot of errors as of recent versions 04:56:10 fusss: <3 stumpwm 04:56:18 btw, does mcclim work with serve-event? 04:56:53 *qbg* is running stumpwm at this moment 04:56:55 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.171.19] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:57:02 *sykopomp* is also stumping atm. 04:57:12 got any cool scripts for stumpwm? 04:57:24 weirdo: it doesn't inhibit it. there's no integration, though. 04:57:29 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:57:34 *qbg* just did my first hack on stumpwm 04:57:38 not particularly. I've only really had to write stuff for my own convenience, and then only very little. 04:57:57 I just have a command that pushes the current window to the next available frame. 04:58:17 and a bunch of rebindings :P 04:58:28 All I have is an improved eval command that also returns the text outputted to *terminal-io* 04:58:28 http://jlr.freeshell.org/data/mcclim/screenshots/2007-03-27-listener-light-4.png 04:58:30 wow 04:58:59 might be some point in writing a file manager with mcclim, since all unix ones suck 04:59:55 I can't say that gtk theme agrees with the listener 05:00:33 Good morning. 05:00:56 morning, beach. 05:01:47 *hefner* likes his little file icons 05:01:59 mornin' beach 05:02:00 mbdreads [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-34b2271f40f6688e] has joined #lisp 05:03:28 morning beach 05:04:29 hey beach 05:04:42 what did I miss? 05:05:07 sounds like I missed your wine and cheese mixer :) 05:06:15 slyrus_: You did. Next one is the last Friday of January. 05:06:20 almost forgot our wine & cheese; thanks slyrus (: 05:07:50 *slyrus_* is skipping the cheese but enjoying a nice vacqueyras 05:09:03 beach: why do all of your font screenshots have rather ... umm ... lumpy transitions between font sizes/weights? It seems like things generally move smoothly but there are some bumps, if you will. 05:09:32 slyrus_: that's when the stroke size goes from 1 to 2 pixels 05:09:45 slyrus_: the alternative is to have everything fuzzy 05:09:51 ah. hrm... ok. 05:10:48 -!- neurogeek||m [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:11:06 slyrus_: I might experiment with more fuzziness and see whether it still looks OK. 05:11:53 ok. also, for the 2 pixel stroke size, the lowercase t looks weird until near the bottom. 05:11:57 slyrus_: I also experimented with sub-pixel solutions, but with disappointing result. Otherwise I could have increased the horizontal resolution by a factor 3 (but only for black on white) 05:11:58 also the t is too tall, IMO. 05:12:16 slyrus_: OK, I'll look into that. 05:12:46 I see you fixed lowercase e 05:13:18 slyrus_: but like I said, the font itself should be considered a hack so that a group of students (or someone else) can get started on the word processor. The font itself can be improved or replaced later. 05:13:29 yeah, yeah... :) 05:14:45 it would be cool to design sets of fonts for specific applications, rather than for specific "styles", e.g. the music notation-related font, the architecture font, the math font, the chemical equation font. 05:15:22 beach: why only for black on white with sub-pixel solutions? 05:17:34 hefner: the colors are used up by the sub-pixel mechanism itself, so it can't work together with colors other than shades of gray. 05:18:28 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:18:53 The Travelling Salesperson Problem (TSP) 05:18:56 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:19:11 beach: i've gotten my chemistry representation/SMILES (a quick-and-dirty-ish representation for chemical structure)-parsing stuff to the point where the remaining problems are actually rather difficult (sterochemistry, aromaticity detection) 05:19:23 i'm a bit surprised by political correctness creeping *there* 05:19:48 oh, and I've cleaned up the API to epigraph a bit further. it's starting to look like the graph library I wanted when I got started 05:20:30 and I've been trying to get all of my various bits of software to run on ccl, with marginal success. 05:21:11 beach: I think the model xrender uses is fine, you can still have an arbitrary source color, but the glyph is composited as though each color component has a separate alpha channel 05:21:21 slyrus_: remind me what ccl is. 05:21:33 the lisp impl formerly known as openmcl 05:21:36 you can see this in most of my recentish listener screenshots, anyway. I think it looks okay. 05:21:41 now known as clozure common lisp 05:21:53 because there weren't enough thinks known as closure/clozure/clojure around 05:22:32 hefner: I think you are right, but sub-pixel anti-aliasing won't work anyway (in case your last remark was related to it). 05:22:42 slyrus_: oh right, yes. 05:24:42 hefner: are you saying that the listener is using xrender for the text? 05:25:06 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:26:44 beach: any time you're using mcclim-truetype (or freetype), the drawing is done through xrender (albeit with a conventional 8 bit alpha mask for the glyphs), but this machine has the experimental subpixel aa hack using xrender's component alpha feature) 05:26:54 (ironically this machine has a CRT attached, so the effect is wasted) 05:27:13 heh 05:27:35 hefner: Right, forgot about McCLIM-truetype. 05:28:24 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:29:05 the way it's factored, you could easily plug your fonts in and use them through the CLX backend. I think all you need to do is implement one function that gets called to produce an array of pixel values for a character in the requested style and size, 05:29:56 dnolen [n=dnolen@70.107.129.110] has joined #lisp 05:30:07 hefner: Yeah, that's good. 05:31:34 hefner: I could also change from using cl-vectors to turning the Bézier curves into triangles or trapezoids acceptable to xrender. 05:34:44 or hack cl-vector's sweep process to do the same thing 05:34:59 i would love a giant ven diagram of research papers that are "related"; i.e. use the same theories/models to describe things. citation doesn't always work, since people cite others they disagree with or criticize 05:35:28 fusss: there's a problem with venn diagrams: they don't scale. 05:35:49 google maps then 05:36:07 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-24-241.w90-55.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:36:22 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-62-240.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 05:36:25 -!- beach` is now known as beach 05:36:35 some kind of mental graphic that says "yeah, all these people worked at such and such lab together; all these stuff came from that project" 05:38:36 hefner: Yeah, that would work as well, though since cl-vectors wasn't designed to be fast, I would rather see a library for computational geometry stuff that turns bézier curves into polygons, that can turn arbitrary polygons into a set of convex ones, and that can turn polygons into triangles. 05:39:55 beach: why wouldn't you use something that's known to work decently well, like cairo? 05:40:32 *_3b* would have guessed triangulating would be counterproductive at the scale of normal text 05:40:34 pkhuong: using *FFI? 05:40:45 beach: yes. 05:41:10 pkhuong: Because part of the plan is to do everything in Lisp. It is easy to lose track of that goal, though, I admit. 05:43:25 beach: sure, that sounds reasonable. I'd imagined you could take the cl-vectors code and tranform it into something more efficient. 05:44:07 certainly, if you care about efficiency, letting the user provide a per-pixel callback is insane 05:44:08 hefner: Sure, though the cl-vectors API is not great either. 05:44:37 hmm, that may be. I've not really used it, except indirectly. 05:44:59 hefner: I haven't measured the time that takes, but to be fair, it does provide a per-run callback as well. 05:45:44 hefner: for instance, points are represented as conses, so you usually can't specialize on them, and there are no arbitrary affine transformations. 05:47:57 vecto has a nice api, though I'd prefer more direct control over compositing for the sake clipping masks and such, and only outputting image files is a bit silly 05:48:37 cl-vectors is intentionally low level, I suppose. 05:49:47 hefner: As I understand, it was written as a demo to understand the underlying rendering algorithm. 05:55:14 _3b: what would you do instead? 05:57:53 hefner: I wonder how much it costs to use a per-pixel callback though. I mean, there is a fair amount of work to be done for each pixel: get it from the array, divide it up into color components, multiply alpha and (- 1 alpha) values for each component, compose the pixel back, store it. 06:01:43 beach: http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=379234 06:02:04 fusss: what's it about? 06:02:25 it's madness. granted, I think you have to build the alpha mask and composite it in separate steps. 06:02:34 lilypond, "music notation software in lisp" .. GSharp anyone? 06:04:14 booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-75-20-201-254.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:24 fusss: I know about LilyPond, yes. It is very different from Gsharp. 06:04:47 -!- booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-75-20-201-254.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 06:05:42 i wouldn't know, my music skills consist entire of one song by Sir Mixalot 06:05:53 s/entire/entirely/ 06:06:30 fusss: That's fine. Music engraving has nothing to do with music anyway, much like typography has nothing to do with writing novels. 06:06:52 oh 06:07:29 just feel guilty about not knowing much, specially is my SO is a singer :-( 06:07:29 <_3b> beach: curve->line segments->spans probably, haven't done graphics at that level in a while though 06:07:30 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@70.107.129.110] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:07:40 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-129-110.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:22 _3b: What if you have non-convex and/or self-overlapping polygons? 06:08:30 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 06:09:55 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 06:10:51 nite folks 06:10:53 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-168-233.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 2.0.0.18/2008102918]"] 06:11:23 _3b: Since the rendering is only done once for each glyph, it doesn't matter how long it takes really. The performance problem is rather for other graphics that needs to be done essentially each time the window is drawn. 06:11:57 beach: you can move one of those multiplies outside the loop, if you premultiply your source color. plus the compositing could be done is just a few instructions, if lisp gave you some way to use the mmx instructions 06:12:29 hefner: fair enough. 06:12:42 <_3b> counting edges covers the non-convex/overlapping cases i think 06:12:45 hefner: I still don't think the function call will be a problem, though. 06:13:01 _3b: OK. 06:13:11 anyway, inlining the per-pixel and per-span portions would be the first step on the path of fixing the types and perhaps eliminating some temporary data structures 06:13:57 hefner: yeah, the per-span thing is going to help a lot I think. 06:13:59 hefner: how long does a function call take these days? 06:14:45 beach: enough to screw with the pipeline. 06:18:57 pkhuong: So I think most rendering is going to be for text. And text is rendered once to an alpha mask. We are left with graphics. How many pixels are modified per interaction? I would guess very few, given things like incremental redisplay, etc. 06:19:15 ..and yet a little less than some of sbcl's generic operations, interestingly 06:20:07 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 06:20:43 beach: I wouldn't be able to tell; I've only looked at microscopic portions of cairo. 06:21:09 Now an interesting technique would be to turn each glyph into a specialized program that would do things like avoid the multiplication by the alpha mask if alpha turns out to be 1 or 0. 06:21:16 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:21:17 the whole sheet (not just the viewport region) is cached in a pixmap? what happens if my sheet gets very large? 06:21:48 hefner: no, your entire sheet is not backed up by an image. 06:22:05 that's what I meant, yeah 06:22:57 compiling images into code sounds hard on the instruction cache 06:23:51 <_3b> heh, haven't seen images as code in a while :) 06:24:17 hefner: how does that compare to sticking a test in there for 1 or 0? 06:24:18 (how hard? I'd love to know. I imagine some nice mmx assembly would work much better, though) 06:24:38 beach: sorry, I'm lost. what do you mean? 06:25:04 oh, branching in the loop, versus doing the multiply unconditionally? 06:25:25 hefner: between giving the instruction cache a hard time if compiling to code, and testing explicitly whether alpha is 1 or 0 and avoiding most operations in that case. 06:25:34 beach: it's probably simpler to switch to optimised blitting routines instead of generating specialised code and branching to it. 06:25:54 pkhuong: "simpler"? 06:26:42 less code to write and less complexity for the CPU to handle 06:26:52 beach: I'm suggesting that the cost of the test and branch to avoid the operation is greater than always doing the operation 06:27:43 hefner: OK, so how does that compare to generating a specilized program that does the test at compile time and doesn't even get executed for white pixels. 06:28:12 (notice that most pixels are white in a typical glyph) 06:28:25 (and some others are totally opaque) 06:30:47 pkhuong: Though, as a researcher, I need to consider the efficiency of the result as well, even if that means a solution that is a lot less "simple" in terms of my time. 06:31:15 <_3b> could alo try storing spans, possibly handling opaque and alpha separately 06:31:16 which leaves us with the behavior of the processor for each case. 06:31:23 beach: simple code usually results in more efficient execution. 06:31:40 only in the strange world of the lisper does this sound simpler than a well written loop 06:31:52 pkhuong: unless that simple code is executed much more often than the complex one. 06:31:58 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:32:55 _3b: that would certainly be a possible solution. 06:33:06 I'll leave you guys to fight this out. 06:33:39 I remain convinced that it is not going to matter though, because there will likely be few operations necessary per interaction. 06:34:17 I think a friend of mine when with something like what _3b suggests, pre-optimising a set of spans and then doing all the pixels in each span in a very dumb and simple way 06:37:41 Hey, I haven't seen a discussion this interesting on #lisp for a while (which doesn't mean there hasn't been any of course). 06:38:16 <_3b> alternately, just store it in some form OpenGL would like and let it handle the pixel stuff :) 06:38:24 <_3b> harder to do that 100% lisp though 06:39:01 modern cpu like data driven approaches... so interpreters for conditional-free languages ;) 06:39:51 jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has joined #lisp 06:40:44 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@217.194.205.196] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:41:04 hefner: what font is used for the file names in the listener? 06:41:16 oudeis [n=oudeis@89.139.91.197] has joined #lisp 06:41:29 holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:38 hefner: I am asking because the rendering is quite good. 06:57:06 Heh, Lilypond is written in the UnCommon Lisp, so it does not count. :-) (I looked into extending it, but it was somewhat awkward at the time - thought about making it do things for me that I couldn't find in the docs) 07:02:32 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:10:27 tic: Also: It is not interactive. And last time I looked at a page, it had typographical problems. 07:10:59 beach, yes, the batch processing isn't very fun. 07:12:02 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89.139.91.197] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:13:12 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-129-110.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:16:55 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:59 what does ` mean 07:17:02 to 'quote' something ? 07:17:04 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 07:17:06 backquote. 07:17:16 banisterfiend, see the chapter on macros in PCL for a good explanation. 07:17:16 what does it mean? i dont quite get the explanation in the book... 07:17:47 -!- perv [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has quit [] 07:17:48 beach, it means you can escape the quoting. Say `(format t "hello ~A" ,name) which will output the s-exp (format ...) but with the /actual/ value of name 07:17:53 oops, banisterfiend of course. 07:18:44 ok... 07:19:01 how can i pass format variables to use in the function i want to call to get the result i want to print? 07:20:06 like (format (x y z) t "~5D" ,function1(x y z)) 07:20:15 where function1 returns a decimal value i want to print 07:20:33 (format t "~5D" (function x y z)) ? 07:21:30 (defun hello-world (name age) (format t "Hello, ~A! You are ~D years old.~%" name age)) 07:21:56 hm okay 07:22:06 i suck at lisp 07:22:15 minion, tell te about pcl-book 07:22:15 te: please see pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 07:22:33 is this the equivalent of RTFM? 07:22:42 te, you probably want to read up on the basics in that book. 07:22:58 tic: yeah I've been reading it, but I'm trying to piece together what I've read on my own now 07:23:10 so struggling instead of hitting the reference is kind of my plan right now 07:23:46 i wrote this little function to take 3 variables, and perform some calculations and add them together 07:23:51 im just trying to get format into the mix now 07:24:07 te, alright. now that you know the answer to your question, maybe you'll get it on your own without the reference. I agree toying around is funnier, however I believe you need to better understand the evaluation and function application rules. 07:24:25 You're probably right 07:25:00 -!- rtra_ is now known as rtra 07:26:14 te, (defun distance (a b) (let ((distance (sqrt (+ (* a a) (* b b))))) (format t "Distance between A and B is ~F" distance))) ; beware of missing parens. and the duplicate 'distance' is valid Lisp, separate function and value cells. 07:30:20 dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 07:33:52 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:34:14 hoy 07:35:13 good morning 07:37:20 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 07:37:24 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-128-107.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 07:39:52 hello nikodemus 07:39:54 hello mvilleneuve 07:41:29 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 07:43:12 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-128-107.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:23 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:47:24 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:56:31 -!- bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:00:17 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:03:19 elurin [n=user@85.99.89.214] has joined #lisp 08:09:35 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:38 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 08:18:47 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:36 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 08:26:11 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:27:54 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 08:33:40 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-169.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:42:29 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:43:25 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 08:44:25 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:53:17 Good morning. 08:53:26 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:55:51 benny` [n=benny@i577A1D0F.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:58:35 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:02:49 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 09:10:02 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-24-19-6-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:10:24 phao [n=phao@20158145055.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 09:10:33 nostoi [n=nostoi@213.Red-81-38-52.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:12:36 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:16:41 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:19:27 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 09:19:30 nikodemus: what happened to sbcl-1.0.x+1? 09:20:28 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 09:20:59 *sykopomp* wonders what happened to Xach. 09:21:01 -!- johnjoy [i=529b1171@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2fab606b6c758dbd] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:21:02 -!- mbdreads [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-34b2271f40f6688e] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:23:33 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 09:31:19 sykopomp: apparently he got a life! 09:31:34 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:32:37 we always lose our best people to that nasty thing :( 09:35:06 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:07 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 09:37:01 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:37:12 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:41:04 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:44:00 -!- rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:44:49 rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:45:02 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:48:48 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:52:14 -!- te [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-2c5af274aebae4e5] has quit ["leaving"] 09:52:38 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:54:47 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:54:59 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:54:59 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:55:01 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:56:09 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C04A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:42 eevar2 [n=jalla@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:57:07 tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@190.191.162.100] has joined #lisp 09:57:47 Xof: i don't follow 09:58:29 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit [Client Quit] 09:59:25 hello, I'm kind of lost with arrays, seems I need to specify an array of type (array * (* *)) but tried #(item (item1 item2)) but seems that's not the right thing 09:59:27 any hint? 10:00:13 why would anyone use arrays anyway 10:00:38 you need a literal array? then you surely know the exact dimensions 10:01:49 nikodemus: I'm trying to use an external function, one of the main args is of type array, and when the repl errors it asks for an array with a format (array * (* *)) 10:02:09 nikodemus: but what I tried didn't work, actually, haven't found much about arrays so far 10:02:56 #2A(() ()) 10:03:31 (array * (* *)) means the array can have any element type, but must be two dimensional 10:03:51 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CA48.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:12 so anything (make-array (list an-integer another-integer)) returns fits that description 10:05:04 nikodemus: Could you also add an explicit test for nuking deftype's lambda-list to kreuter's test case introduced in 1.0.22.20? 10:05:04 I see 10:06:24 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 10:08:42 tcr: i must be blid, because i don't see how that is applicable. his test case is defstruct followed by deftype 10:08:59 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 10:09:31 hello 10:09:32 and the defclass test-case covers the relevant part of the defstruct codepath as well -- but i can add more cases there once we clear the freeze 10:09:35 what's something cool i can write in lisp to cement my learning? 10:09:43 sup fe[nl]ix 10:09:51 something you would like to write? 10:09:55 hi tc-rucho 10:10:30 yeah but i can't think of anything particularly lispy, what's lisp esp. good for that that would be a good application something that i couldn't easily write in ruby or so 10:10:44 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2E218.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:12:03 banisterfiend: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Lisp-projects/ 10:12:11 banisterfiend: there are plenty of ideas there. 10:12:27 thanks bb i was also wondering is lisp very suitable for game development? 10:12:34 i find writing a game is a good way to learn a language 10:12:46 are there some nice graphics libraries or game development libraries for lisp too? 10:13:03 banisterfiend: I've been playing around with lispbuilder 10:13:34 you can also just use cl-opengl with glu/glut. the cl-opengl bindings seem pretty great :) 10:13:36 what's lispbuilder? 10:14:48 banisterfiend: http://www.cliki.net/lispbuilder-sdl 10:15:14 nikodemus: ooh, indeed. Then what I meant to write is to add a test case that tests the nuking when redefining deftype via defstruct. :) 10:15:19 it's a bit weird to deal with at first, I feel, but it's growing on me as I play with it more. 10:15:31 lispbuilder-sdl provides bindings for SDL 10:15:44 including 2D stuff, the mixer, fonts, etc 10:15:51 very cool 10:15:53 you can also use cl-opengl with it to do 3d 10:16:05 sykopomp: what other langs do you program in besides lisp? 10:16:21 nikodemus: In one of my deftype related posts, there was a patch introducing deftype-lambda-list to sb-introspection; just to make sure that one gets in after the freeze, did you unflag that post? 10:16:37 no, still in queue 10:16:48 Thanks! 10:17:02 banisterfiend: I know python and java. I do most of my coding in lisp, though. 10:17:14 nikodemus: I replied to your slime-devel post; basically set slime-use-autodoc-mode to nil 10:17:27 sykopomp: nice...tell me...what do you like about lisp that you cant easily do or get from python? 10:17:49 banisterfiend: freedom, flexibility, CLOS, just to mention three. 10:17:49 im just finding lisp a bit of a steep learning curve and wondering what's going to be at the end of teh tunnel if i make the effort to learn it 10:17:54 topo [n=topo@210.pool85-58-26.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:18:03 If I cared that much about efficiency, I'd say efficiency as well, since sbcl generates fantastic code. 10:18:15 minion: tell banisterfiend about gentle 10:18:16 banisterfiend: direct your attention towards gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 10:18:57 banisterfiend: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/features.text is a list of features that I like about Common Lisp. Some of them are unique. 10:19:21 thanks 10:19:26 banisterfiend: I recommend you start taking pleasure in learning. That takes care of the problem. 10:19:52 I might try write a lisp program to do my taxes :) 10:19:59 As a way of learning 10:20:28 another one http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 10:20:29 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:20:30 spiaggia: what was the first program you wrote that helped you learn it 10:20:35 banisterfiend: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp expands on that list of features. 10:21:02 banisterfiend: I can't remember, partly because my memory is bad, and partly because that was some 30 years ago. 10:21:16 geek.nz! :D 10:21:20 lnostdal: oops, didn't see you posted that. Sorry. 10:21:56 banisterfiend: I started writing a text adventure this summer, to learn lisp well. Turned out to be a great project. I've covered a good chunk of lisp, as well as a lot of CS-y stuff. I'm content :) 10:22:08 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F746.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:22:23 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:22:29 granted, my little text adventure kind of kept growing, into a MUD engine, and now a MUD engine with a custom object system (probably, if I write it) 10:22:45 ok nice 10:23:35 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:25:34 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:26:38 what are you unhappy about wrt. Python, banisterfiend ? .. or are you just browsing around with a feeling of "there must be something better out there", in general ? 10:26:54 nah im actually a Ruby programmer 10:27:03 oh, ruby then, yeah 10:27:09 and im not unhappy with ruby 10:27:10 haha 10:27:29 there's alot of anti-ruby sentiment, gets grating after a while :) 10:27:44 Ruby is a Matzacred lisp. 10:27:44 but the reason i want to learn lisp is not because im unhappy with ruby but because of this quote: (one sec) 10:27:48 -!- qw_ is now known as uva 10:28:00 matimago: Ruby is a Matzacred smalltalk* 10:28:25 sykopomp: http://web.archive.org/web/20060522191515/http://ruby-talk.org/cgi-bin/scat.rb/ruby/ruby-talk/179642 10:28:25 bunch of quotes here: http://lispers.org/ 10:28:35 and the second quote from the top is the one that made me want to learn lisp 10:28:39 i'd just ignore people if i was happy with whatever i was using and sure of it; it goes both ways .. people question why we bother with lisp too :} 10:29:05 i dont really want to be a proficient lisp programmer i just want to understand what it's about 10:29:17 with the hope it'll improve my programming in general 10:29:28 banisterfiend: http://www.cliki.net/Favorite%20Lisp%20books 10:29:28 ok .. more here btw. http://wiki.alu.org/RtL_Highlight_Film http://wiki.alu.org/Kenny's_RtLS_Top-Ten 10:29:40 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 10:29:43 banisterfiend: you should read one of Graham's essays. That would leave quite an impression on you. 10:29:49 banisterfiend: basically, sicp + paip should give you the gist of it. 10:30:50 that quote is not a good reason to learn lisp 10:31:07 nikodemus: shhht! 10:31:07 it will just leave you unsatisfied, or with the wrong impression 10:31:11 banisterfiend: That's a pretty strange thing to say. Why would you not want to be proficient? 10:31:12 lisp is a pretty good reason to learn lisp 10:31:44 banisterfiend: you won't really 'get' lisp until you use it enough to be proficient, and maybe even master it. 10:31:53 and you cannot "get" any language properly without becoming at least somewhat proficient 10:32:09 ok ok 10:32:16 banisterfiend: But if that is truly teh case, be warned that when you start understanding it, you might not want to program in any other language again. 10:32:18 you may *think* you get it, but... 10:32:38 well one thing i read that was quite trippy is that 'lists' in lisp are actually an illusion 10:32:42 that was pretty weird 10:32:48 peaked my curiosity 10:32:55 banisterfiend: what beach said. It's a bit depressing that I can't stand using most other languages :( 10:33:01 not any more of an illusion than a linked list in any language 10:33:07 hmm ok 10:33:14 holdon ill find the quote 10:33:39 banisterfiend: once you understand lisp, your notion of other languages (and their limitations) will become much clearer soon. 10:33:51 banisterfiend: what kind of programming do you usually do? 10:34:12 this is from "practical common lisp": The key to understanding lists is to understand that they're largely an illusion built on top of objects that are instances of a more primitive data type. Those simpler objects are pairs of values called cons cells, after the function CONS used to create them. 10:34:13 madnificent: yeah, and then you can't for your life figure out why those other languages are thus limited. 10:34:25 lisp has it's own limitations too, to be sure. /me suffers from perpetual erlang-envy 10:34:30 banisterfiend: well all you can see in anything is but an illusion. 10:34:42 banisterfiend: right 10:35:01 nikodemus: mostly C and ruby 10:35:12 spacebat: and still you must use them ;_; 10:35:27 that quote is right, but it applies to linked lists in general, imo 10:35:48 banisterfiend: what do you use them for? 10:35:52 banisterfiend: ruby made me understand lisp better (and vice-versa). At least that made me work with procs (and with functions being rather important in lisp) 10:37:00 Java made me understand lisp better. It made me realize how much work I actually save by using CLOS, and how much of a violation of the very idea of OOP Java really is. 10:37:43 sykopomp: excellent! 10:38:12 spiaggia: Well, I wish I could be nicer to java sometimes. I've been taking a course this semester that's basically about design patterns and refactoring. 10:38:34 and it seems like every time they make us implement a design pattern, I could just write code that does the same trivially in lisp :( 10:38:50 nikodemus: well im actually a law student so im more of a hobbyist programmer but at the moment im building a lightweight alternative to imagemagick in C for ruby and a few other C extensions for ruby to enhance the language. I dig away at the ruby source code and learn how it fits together then add features that i think other programmers would like; but like i said im more of a hobbyist at this point 10:39:49 I learned how quick lisp was whilst following a course that boasted how good code-generation was. 10:39:55 banisterfiend: I graduated this May as a film student. I took an intro course last fall, and didn't really start coding heavily until this past summer. While python is technically the first language i learned, Lisp is really the first one I *know* 10:39:55 anyway by the way that matz and co were going on about lisp it really made me think it's something that would enhance my programming if i learned it 10:40:11 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-76-104-183-185.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:49 banisterfiend: and you're not on #rubyforce ;_; I do advise lisp more than ruby though 10:41:04 sykopomp: hehehe that's a heck of a first language; seems to me it has one of the steepest learning curves of any language i've learned (aside from assembly) 10:41:20 banisterfiend: ok. then working thru Practical Common Lisp is probably the best start 10:41:21 banisterfiend: to be completely honest, I don't even remotely understand people's 'lisp is hard' claims. 10:41:42 banisterfiend: try "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation", it's really easy. 10:41:48 I've found the opposite to be true. I had a harder time getting started with Java than with lisp. Lisp is simple and straightforward. 10:41:51 <_deepfire> Does anybody know what's up with the sbcl buildbot? 10:41:58 sykopomp: i think it's because you started fresh you weren't corrupted by other languages. i come at lisp from a very heavy C background so for me it's a bit of a headf*ck 10:42:33 banisterfiend: my first impressions of programming had been from C, C++, and python 10:42:44 but you're right, I hadn't been pushed into that mindset :) 10:42:46 one you're done with that, you should have a reasonable idea of what the language it about - and then you can pick something that tickles your fancy and implement it 10:43:05 ok thanks ill start with 'gentle lisp' 10:43:10 bbl 10:43:25 but I think if you sit down and learn lisp for what it is, as opposed to trying to create false expectations of it (thinking that it's anything even remotely close to ALGOL), you'll be quite happy. 10:45:49 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 10:46:42 eevar2 [n=jalla@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:46:46 -!- esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:46:53 esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 10:47:03 sykopomp: I learned Java in a week, learned Lisp a bit slower... A) Lisp simply has more concepts, you want to know them. B) Once you get to know lisp, you're allready stuck in the algol-like-language-view 10:48:14 Learning Lisp, I find, is more like learning a natural language in that you have a rich vocabulary. 10:48:17 madnificent: Having seen all available syntactic constructs is not tantamount to having learned a language 10:48:29 What the vim equiv of slime? 10:48:39 jsoft: there is none 10:48:49 :( 10:49:07 jsoft: Limp may at one point get there. 10:50:03 jsoft, it's rather handicapped, but it beats copy-and-paste. 10:50:16 Tis a shame :( 10:50:26 tic: any modern 'production' language is going to have a sizeable library to learn. This includes C++, Java, Python, Ruby, etc etc. If the standard library isn't so big (as in C), you still have plenty of other libraries to deal with, unless you want to reinvent the wheel 1000 times over. 10:50:49 jsoft, see http://mikael.jansson.be/hacking/limp for the project page, and http://common-lisp.net/project/limp for an ECL-enabled Vim w/ some small test apps. You're welcome to join in on development, alas I don't have the time to work on it right now. :/ 10:51:36 sykopomp, indeed. still, with a small base language you won't have to think about which verbs are most important to learn. Compare the number of keywords in C vs. the HyperSpec master index... 10:51:39 tic: I'm a strong believer of the Church of Emacs, but I really hope Limp pulls ahead and becomes as productive an environment as SLIME :) 10:51:44 jsoft: Learning Emacs makes you appreciate Lisp more. It's a profound enlightenment experience. 10:51:46 sykopomp, thank you. 10:53:46 my experience with lisp, I have to say, has been a series of moments of enlightenment. Points in time when I've realized that I'm doing something that almost no other language provides, or doesn't provide as nicely. 10:53:56 tcr: yes, I didn't say I personally dislike(d) learning lisp. Far from it even. It is by far the most logical language I've ever got to know. But I do think that those are the reasons why many programmers find lisp unattractive. 10:54:59 madnificent: My comment was directed at your "I learned java in a week"; but read http://norvig.com/21-days.html 10:55:06 jsoft: I don't regret learning emacs for slime btw. I know it is a bit of a hassle, but slime is really nice 10:55:29 I remember that day when I was running a server and changed a function that swapped out the client loop while I still had clients connected :D 10:55:30 madnificent: yeah slime is nice, but i dont really like emacs. 10:55:45 madnificent: I find vim a lot faster to do actual editing 10:56:32 jsoft: as long as you use qwerty, yes :) 10:57:00 hehe. using dvorak pretty much stopped any thoughts of learning vim right in their tracks, for me. 10:57:02 as for "I learned Java in a week" - When you know a bunch of similar imperative languages, picking up something like Java is not a trouble - I always ignore all Java lectures, never read anything, yet I can program in it.... 10:57:03 jsoft: no pun intended! I'm really just pointing that out. I've been very happy with vim for a couple of years 10:57:15 sktrdie: yes 10:57:55 madnificent: so do you use emacs _and_ vim on a common basis? 10:58:01 regular basis even 10:58:05 granted, 'learning java' is, in fact, much more than just knowing how to write a program in it 10:58:19 one could argue you know nothing about java until you're intimately familiar with the Monoculture surrounding it 10:58:21 p_l: Being able to write compilable programs in a language does not mean you learned a language 10:58:38 and hove the various java bibles surrounding you (particularly the GoF book) 10:59:00 tcr: for some reason, the knowledge to be gained (besides more api constructs) was actually nil. For the record, back then generics were inexistant. 10:59:12 jsoft: _used_ 10:59:41 madnificent: so do you edit just as fast in emacs as you did in vim? 10:59:51 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:00:14 tcr: thing is that java really doesn't allow programmers to extend the language. Thus the knowing of it is far more limited 11:00:17 ths [n=ths@p549AF6E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:28 jsoft: I find myself editing lisp code pretty darn fast, with paredit+redshank+familiarity with emacs editing 11:00:56 jsoft: For regular file-editing, I found vim to be quicker actually. Somehow, I learned it quicker than emacs. 11:01:05 sykopomp: Well, depends on how much do you want to know about a language - I won't say I'm uber-proficient, but the similarities are big enough that it's like learning a new library... 11:01:09 brb 11:01:38 hmm. 11:01:49 I supposed I could try learning emacs again. 11:01:53 For slime even 11:02:03 i dont use emacs for anything else except slime 11:02:06 my editor of choice is geany 11:02:15 geany eh... 11:02:42 (in linux) 11:03:17 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X669a.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:03:35 Yeah. 11:03:41 I only really use unix based os 11:03:46 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@213.Red-81-38-52.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 11:03:55 banisterfiend: looks more like an IDE than an editor. 11:04:10 Bugger it, I might try learning emacs again. Thing is I need to learn one or the other, because I find I get the commnands ingrained 11:04:32 sykopomp: you wouldn't call emacs an ide? 11:04:55 banisterfiend: I would call emacs a virtual machine. 11:06:02 hehe ok 11:06:13 banisterfiend: emacs is an environment that has some nice editing features that I like, and a common interface into a lot of applications. 11:06:17 jsoft: It takes time to appreciate Emacs fully. Hacking on Slime made me realize how cool it is. Emacs is to other applications basically what Lisp is to other programming languages. 11:06:43 tcr, how do you feel about climacs? 11:06:44 so I actually like using it for a lot of different applications. I'm using it for IRC right now, for example. I also use Conkeror, since I found w3m within emacs to be... lacking. 11:07:20 sykopomp: do you run emacs in the console or emacs in its own window (xemacs?) 11:07:37 Xemacs is a fork of emacs 11:07:48 I run emacs in graphical mode. It looks much nicer :) 11:07:52 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 11:08:55 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:08:58 tic: There's not much to feel about it. I'm not familiar to Clim, and I'm not convinced that investing time in learning it is worth it. 11:09:26 climacs is pretty unusable as a main editor :( 11:09:30 yeah that's one thing that bugs me about emacs it's just so ugly 11:09:35 but I'd love to switch to it once it's ready and stable :) 11:09:39 why doesn't someone write a pretty GUI for it? it would only take a short time i thik 11:10:07 How is it ugly? 11:10:25 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 11:10:29 <_3b> looks fine to me, no annoying scroll bars, or menus or whatever :p 11:10:30 banisterfiend: I'm pretty content with the way my emacs looks. It's more customizable than you seem to think :) 11:10:38 So ok, which emacs do you guys reccomend? 11:10:43 kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bb2e0de7f8c69eed] has joined #lisp 11:10:46 the cli one should be just fine, right 11:10:47 ? 11:10:48 gnu emacs 23.x 11:10:52 morning 11:11:02 hello kiuma 11:11:06 *_3b* uses gnu emacs 22, in gui mode with extra guis stuff turned off 11:11:15 banisterfiend: in what way do you find Emacs ugly? 11:11:30 maybe fonts 11:11:48 *sykopomp* uses a custom pastel-colored dark theme, with scroll bar and menus and tool bars turned off 11:11:56 i find emacs much prettier than geany (or basically any other ide) 11:12:04 gtk emacs? 11:12:22 kiuma: fonts are really nice for me. I use bitstream vera sans, anti-aliased :) 11:12:41 terminus ftw ;) 11:12:47 spiaggia: very primitive windowing toolkit it's using, ugly menus, ugly looking icons, etc 11:12:48 meh, ugly 11:13:11 banisterfiend: Holy *shit*! You are using menus and icons? 11:13:14 icons? menus? 11:13:15 hahahaha 11:13:22 spiaggia: you're awesome 11:13:24 banisterfiend, what would you want a GUI for? 11:13:26 banisterfiend: they take up valuable pixels and slow you down. 11:13:30 and i wouldnt call gtk primitive 11:13:37 +1 on what spiaggia said. 11:13:40 kill the rat! 11:14:52 spiaggia: ok but come on man, ask the man on the street which they find more aesthetically pleasing: textmate or emacs 11:14:58 (im not talking about functionality here) 11:15:09 Why on earth would I do that? 11:15:25 hehe ok 11:15:41 banisterfiend: honestly, I have a pretty strong opinion about people who would judge how useful an application is by how pretty its default gui is ;) 11:16:18 *spiaggia* too 11:16:34 i dont judge how useful it is, it's just i guess im used to pretty looking guis and it's taking a while to adjust to the brutalism of emacs 11:16:37 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:17:04 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has left #lisp 11:17:04 changing the font and color theme shouldnt take too long.. 11:17:11 banisterfiend: I suggest you start looking at GUIs wrt how efficient they make you instead. 11:17:58 banisterfiend: I can show you screenies, if you're looking for something along those lines 11:18:02 I recommend "The Humane Interface" by Jef Raskin (author of the original Apple UI, and some things at Xerox IIRC) 11:18:08 sykopomp: sure 11:18:54 I think it would be great if there were more people with graphical design skills involved with free software. 11:18:59 tic: I read it recently. Very interesting! I don't agree with everything he writes, but it's generally very good. 11:19:45 lichtblau: KDE has nice graphics. 11:20:15 daniel_: Then we need to lure some KDE designers into this channel, so that CLIM can be pretty, too! 11:20:19 spiaggia, I'm particularly fond of Data vs Commands. My impression of CLIM is that it's similar to that. Would that be a correct assumption? 11:20:49 lichtblau: I agree. Not for myself, but to make peple like banisterfiend attracted to it. 11:20:54 lichtblau: That'd ruin the elite flair of Lisp programs, though :) 11:21:03 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 11:21:22 tic: CLIM actually uses the verb then noun, noun, ... order. 11:21:49 tic: Most of what Raskin and others say depends on single dispatch. 11:21:56 *spiaggia* goes to a meeting. 11:21:59 http://privatepaste.com/b2bwANUyzS 11:22:05 spiaggia: nooo! look at my screenie first! <3 11:22:18 alright, 1 minute 11:23:06 sykopomp: Looks like Emacs, but with slightly too many colors for me. 11:23:08 sykopomp: stumpwm? 11:23:11 banisterfiend: that's stumpwm, by the way, which is a lisp-based tiling window manager ;) 11:23:15 madnificent: yeah 11:23:19 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 11:23:23 thanks sykopomp 11:23:31 nice setup 11:23:50 I like making my emacs really colorful, which isn't quite up to everyone's taste... 11:25:21 banisterfiend: point being, emacs can look pretty much however you want. It's just a matter of tweaking stuff, which you inevitably will if you start using it a lot 11:25:48 can you send me your .emacs file 11:25:50 my .emacs is all the way up to 302 lines, and I have a separate config file for a couple of the apps I run (mew, erc) 11:25:59 nah nevermind 11:26:02 hahaha 11:26:06 do you know a site that has a bunch of .emacs profiles? 11:26:13 that i can choose? kinda like 'emacs skins' i guess 11:26:39 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Operation timed out] 11:27:01 banisterfiend: There's the collection of colour themes 11:27:04 banisterfiend: I don't know, no. I know there's a lot of google results if you search around for people's .emacs 11:27:11 check for color-theme on emacs wiki 11:27:53 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:28:26 sykopomp: fonts are nice for me too, but I use the 23 one, I don't remember how the 22 looks like 11:28:28 spiaggia, alright. I guess I have to read up more on CLIM. Sounds interesting. 11:28:40 kiuma: I use emacs from git. 11:29:55 I thought it was from svn, good to know 11:29:59 hehe. It's 6:30am, I think I might head to bed for a little while. 11:30:09 lol 11:30:10 I think they have mirrors on pretty much everything, actually 11:30:12 sykopomp: good night 11:30:19 they have, or had, an arc mirror as well 11:30:20 good night 11:30:38 I use the gentoo distro 11:30:57 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:31:04 kiuma: nice to hear people that use that :) (on bsd now, but I liked gentoo) 11:31:13 madnificent: which bsd? :) 11:31:26 I'm very happy to have migrated away from gentoo. 11:31:49 freebsd on this desktop, netbsd on the little server at home, openbsd on the other one, dragonfly on the old laptop :) 11:31:57 emacs & CL are great on gentoo thenks to ppl like fe[nl]ix 11:32:11 *thanks 11:32:55 sykopomp: what don't you like about gentoo ? 11:32:56 I've been meaning to try out fbsd. I'm waiting until I get a new box to do it, though. 11:33:27 -!- esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 11:34:03 jsoft: what do you use? 11:34:33 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 11:34:44 g'day 11:34:52 hello plage 11:34:53 hello plage 11:36:37 tic: that would be great! 11:36:48 madnificent: openbsd and freebsd 11:37:05 I particuarly like openbsd. 11:37:22 plage: that you again, beach? 11:37:44 ok 11:37:53 sykopomp: yes. 11:37:55 kiuma: looking back, I realized dealing with gentoo was actually a pretty stressful experience for me. 11:38:04 plage: ah. well, g'day then. 11:38:08 I go sleep now for realz, yo 11:38:14 the example im reading in gentle lisp is using symbols in the lists it's doing this: (list AARDVARK BEETLE) etc 11:38:19 yet when i type that into slime i get an error, why? 11:39:11 banisterfiend: those will be assumed to be variables that have to be bound for that expression to work. 11:39:36 ok... 11:41:02 banisterfiend: or you can quote them if you want those particular symbols. 11:41:11 what do you mean quote them? 11:41:25 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 11:41:34 put a quote symbol (') in front of each one. 11:41:41 banisterfiend: (list 'aardvark 'beetle) 11:41:44 whta does that mean exactlly? 11:41:51 banisterfiend: suppresses evaluation 11:42:06 weird 11:42:08 banisterfiend: it means that you'll talk about the symbol aardvark, instead of the contents of the variable 11:42:15 banisterfiend: sort of like the difference beween bill (the person) and "bill" a string. 11:44:06 banisterfiend: the difference between foo and :foo in ruby 11:44:52 (not really, but close enough when speaking about symbols) 11:44:58 hehe 11:45:00 thanks 11:45:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 11:47:50 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 11:48:49 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084246.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 11:48:55 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.89.214] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:51:32 Massena [n=pavle@bl9-249-164.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:52:53 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:53:58 haha all that car/cdr and combinations of teh two is weird weird weird 11:54:04 caddr hehehe 11:54:21 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 11:54:30 banisterfiend: looks perfectly normal to me. 11:55:07 you're drunk on the kool-aid that's why :D 11:55:29 Is that so? 11:56:08 plz dont hit me 11:56:44 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:56:48 banisterfiend: OK, but it's getting a bit old that you consider everything in Lisp that is different as "weird". 11:56:51 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 11:58:22 banisterfiend: try substituting "marvellous" for a while. 11:58:49 lulz ill get there soon 11:59:58 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:02:49 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 12:03:19 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 12:06:25 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 12:07:22 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:27 argh :| 12:10:40 s pasted "s" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71306 12:10:41 *jsoft* is struggling to recall basic navigation commands in emacs 12:11:38 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 12:12:20 Who is "s"? 12:13:04 someone who thinks it is cool to use three different looping idioms in three adjacent functions. 12:13:12 i'm not on his side. 12:13:34 H4ns: it is also someone who needs to learn to indent his/her code. 12:13:55 H4ns: is the source code for yason's docstring-to-xml extractor available? 12:14:31 lichtblau: sure, it is stolen from documentation-template and available at svn://bknr.net/svn/trunk/libraries/clixdoc 12:16:49 can anyone point me to a declarative object-oriented language? 12:17:13 ecraven: OO is almost by definition imperative. 12:17:41 H4ns: thanks 12:18:21 plage: so noone has tried anything like that? 12:18:44 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 12:18:48 ecraven: hard to say, given that I am not sure what the main characteristics would be. 12:19:07 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:20:02 supports "objects" in some sense, is declarative ;) 12:20:16 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084246.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:20:31 i'm in the dark as for what i'm looking for too, so this thing might not even exist 12:21:02 plage, do you have suggestions on what to read up on with regard to clim? tutorial or similar? 12:21:25 ecraven: here's a special-purpose one: http://www.doc.ic.ac.uk/research/technicalreports/2000/#1 12:21:35 tic: you can start with the "getting started" part of the McCLIM manual. 12:21:45 locklace: thanks! 12:22:17 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:22:42 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084246.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 12:22:46 what's the diff b/w rest and cdr? 12:23:00 banisterfiend: none 12:23:01 plage, http://mcclim.cliki.net/GettingStarted is focused on the installation. I'm more interested in a high-level description, if available. 12:23:12 tic: no, the manual. 12:23:20 banisterfiend, cdr suggests it's a cons, whereas rest suggests a list. 12:23:32 banisterfiend, also, you can do crazy things like caddadr, but you shouldn't 12:23:42 what's the diff bw cons and a list then? 12:24:12 not all conses are lists. 12:24:18 (...proper lists) 12:24:29 banisterfiend: A text book is better for that, but (list a b) is the same as (cons a (cons b nil)) 12:24:46 banisterfiend: But I am sure you are going to say that that is "weird". 12:25:04 marvellous :) 12:25:08 *tic* must find a proper printer for the manual. 12:25:12 ah, much better! 12:25:35 Anyway, off to see the shrink. .-) 12:25:44 tic: see you later. 12:26:01 tic: and good luck! 12:27:40 i'm not sure why plage said "OO is almost by definition imperative", that doesn't seem true to me (or maybe he's using a narrower definition of OO) 12:27:55 locklace: very likely. 12:29:51 ecraven: the problem ponder tries to address is itself pretty interesting and important 12:30:22 http://paste.lisp.org/display/71307 .. some weirdness going on, i think .. with sb-ext:string-to-octets 12:31:32 locklace: i'll read the paper, and be back with questions ;) 12:31:56 babel does something; http://paste.lisp.org/display/71307#1 12:33:08 oudeis [n=oudeis@89.139.91.197] has joined #lisp 12:33:21 lnostdal: works for me on 1.0.28.18 12:33:38 "1.0.22.19" here 12:34:10 setf [i=8f5df958@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-53667a4ff59a25d3] has joined #lisp 12:34:20 H4ns is off in the future again 12:34:50 erm, that's what you get for typing stuff instead of cutting and pasting. 1.0.21.18 here 12:36:54 Last touch to src/code/octets.lisp appears to be 12 months ago. 12:37:52 anyone else seeing this? .. just to make sure it isn't just here 12:38:04 i'm trying with sbcl --no-userinit now .. same thing 12:38:10 lnostdal: it's a bug 12:38:18 ok 12:38:41 lnostdal: Same results in here. 12:38:53 reported by luis along with a patch last night 12:39:14 nikodemus: is the source code for your SBCL-style docstring extractor for HTML generation available? 12:39:19 open source; it works! :) 12:39:42 lichtblau: not yet, but i can send you my hacked docstrings.lisp 12:40:21 haven't worked on it for a couple of weeks 12:41:57 "using just car and cdr is it possible to write a function that returns just the *last* element of a list no matter how long the list is?" 12:42:15 banisterfiend: you need a conditional check, too. 12:42:34 can you show me the func? im stumped on that q 12:42:44 nikodemus: that would be great. I'm only researching things right now, so that file would probably be all I need. 12:42:49 in email 12:42:55 oh, there it :-). Thanks. 12:42:58 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4529.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 12:43:03 banisterfiend: can you please read gigamonkeys.com/book/ and return afterwards? thank you. 12:43:24 ok but im actually reading a book now and that's an end of chapter question 12:43:27 that i cant answer 12:43:28 banisterfiend: It's an elementary recursive program. It looks just like a proof by induction. 12:43:59 oh, and it already includes the CLOSy approach we talked about. Cool. 12:44:25 lichtblau: iirc my next planned step was to add a simple html template functionality 12:44:37 mathrick [n=mathrick@87.54.43.37] has joined #lisp 12:44:43 and generation of .html includes 12:44:44 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb49f7.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 12:45:04 banisterfiend: base case: the list has one element, return it. Otherwise, it has n > 1 elements, assume by induction hypothesis that you know how to do it for at most n-1 element, and call recursively with the rest of the list (having n-1 elements). 12:45:31 thanks 12:45:56 banisterfiend: but I agree with H4ns; it is time to go read a book. 12:46:16 im reading 'gentle ruby' it's an end of chapter Q, thanks 12:46:20 thanks for your solution 12:46:38 banisterfiend: usually, if you are not able to solve one of the questions at the en of the chapter, it is an indication that you should re-read parts of the chapter. 12:46:50 so that you can do something like (document-packages "foo.html" '(:foo :foo-user) :template "foo.tmpl") which should also tell you which exported and documented symbols were not included in the documentation 12:46:55 banisterfiend: also, note that this channel is not called "we teach you lisp while you read a ruby book". 12:46:58 nikodemus: I'm more interested in splitting things up, so that docstring->CLOS is one library, and CLOS->whatever can be done separately 12:47:59 i'm fine with that, i think. though i want all the parts needed by SBCL docs to in contribs 12:49:18 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 12:50:52 So there could be contrib/sb-docstring-parser as well as contrib/sb-{texinfo|html}-documentation? 12:51:19 lichtblau: +1 12:51:22 *lichtblau* should stop talking vapourware and start coding 12:53:19 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89.139.91.197] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:54:22 lichtblau: i'm not sure if splitting things to separate contribs i necessary as long as the API gives you access to the parsing layer directly. i'm not totally opposed to separate contribs either - the aesthetic tradeoff is just non-obvious to me 12:55:55 for the record; luis's patch on sbcl-devel solves the problem over here .. :) 12:58:38 /join #newspeak 12:58:40 whoops, sorry 12:59:33 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:00:33 Any CFFI Swig users around? 13:00:50 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:01:36 hi folks 13:01:51 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4529.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:01:55 who wants to see my lisp game screencast 13:02:03 http://dto.mamalala.org/rlx-explod.ogv 13:02:12 this is written in CL and is approaching a playable alpha 13:02:21 and i'm so very proud :) 13:02:48 I watched it when you linked from #stumpwm, it's looking good 13:03:04 Any screenshots for the at-work crowd? 13:03:17 aerique: give me a moment. 13:03:31 Jarvellis: thank you :) 13:03:33 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:01 dto: not at all, thank /you/ :-), let us know when it's playable please 13:04:16 dto: slow server? or must I check my local connection? 13:04:21 hmm 13:04:24 beach: dejavu sans 13:04:24 dto: that server is very slow... 13:04:24 chandler, memo from rpg: I'm sorry --- it's been a long weekend --- what 13:04:25 chandler, memo from rpg: I'm sorry --- it's been a long weekend --- what was the context? 13:04:27 probably slow 13:04:28 dto: and I am _very_ interested in game+lisp 13:04:43 my sources are linked from http://dto.mamalala.org/notebook/rlx.html 13:05:20 minion: memo for rpg: context: your docstrings patch on sbcl-devel should have been a unified context diff 13:05:20 Remembered. I'll tell rpg when he/she/it next speaks. 13:06:51 dto: cool stuff 13:08:02 aerique: http://dto.mamalala.org/images/rlx.png 13:09:16 madnificent: what types of things are you interested in doing 13:09:33 i've tried to make it very lispy and very OO 13:09:47 i implemented a custom object system and message passing/queueing for the game 13:10:36 would anyone like to try it? 13:10:43 I would 13:10:49 it sort of plays, kind of 13:11:11 http://github.com/dto/rlx/tree/master/INSTALL 13:11:32 dto: mainly, a friend of mine wants to design games. I've been searching for better ways to communicate with him for the design of the game. So I'm not looking to actively participate (unless he wants to build upon your game of-course). 13:11:35 cant' i just give you root access and let you install it? 13:11:36 actually it may work with the asdf-installable lispbuilder-sdl stuff now, not requiring svn as INSTALL file says 13:12:01 madnificent: this library is designed as a general purpose tile game engine 13:12:08 madnificent: so he could use it , if desired 13:12:20 dto: I'll have little time in the near future anyway, but I'll probably check it out sometime soon (and perhaps add something :)) 13:12:20 Jarvellis: :) 13:12:38 dto: how general? 13:12:55 dto: meaning: everything with tiles in it? or just walking over tiles? 13:13:13 can you be more specific 13:15:29 dto: I was hoping for you to be more specific actually. One of the things that has been laying around here, was a mini-game in which you could build/expand a little city (very very basic). It was written in rails, but I'd prefer to have it in lisp for quicker development and better communication with him. In that game every place where some building can stand is a tile (which has some extra properties). Perhaps the visualization 13:15:30 (perhaps even more) of what you created can be used for that. 13:16:49 my objects are called "cells" and can have whatever properties (i.e. "field" values) you want. one of them is called :tile, it's a string used to look up the image 13:16:56 how about this. 13:17:03 let me give you something short to read that will give you an idea of the api 13:17:18 dto: thanks! and it could be superb! :D 13:17:51 http://github.com/dto/rlx/raw/master/cells.lisp 13:17:52 dto: looks like it could be a perfect match for the mini-game :) 13:18:07 -!- durka [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has quit [] 13:18:13 this is one way of using the library, it's not *required* to base your game on these cells 13:18:24 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:18:31 now, you might define them differently for a sim game 13:18:55 durka [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has joined #lisp 13:18:59 http://github.com/dto/rlx/raw/master/vm0/vm0.lisp 13:19:18 -!- durka [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has quit [Client Quit] 13:19:28 -!- holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:19:43 topo_ [n=topo@53.pool85-58-128.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 13:20:18 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:58 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:21:55 The (require :rlx) doesn't work :-( 13:21:56 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:23:07 what happens 13:23:20 it's probably a pain to install at this point but someone got it working on freebsd 13:23:37 dto: cells.lisp made me feel like it was geared for dungeon-games. But it might be a feeling. Looks promising. I hope it'll work out :D 13:24:13 madnificent: well it does have some basic rpg concepts built in, but they are sort of optional 13:24:30 even pac man has hit points. 13:24:36 just one :) 13:24:54 Jarvellis pasted "rlx fail" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71310 13:24:54 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 13:24:56 -!- topo [n=topo@210.pool85-58-26.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:24 Jarvellis: are you on debian? 13:25:31 apt-get install cl-cffi or something 13:25:35 ok 13:25:38 thanks 13:25:45 yeah 13:25:49 let me knwo if that works 13:25:53 you might have to install one or two others 13:26:16 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 13:26:35 Jarvellis: what platform are you on 13:26:52 x86 13:27:01 *Jarvellis* hopes that was the question 13:28:17 locklace: since OO is based on the concept of Object = data + program encapsulated within something with identity, the natural way of using it is indeed imperative: you have methods to modify the state of the object, which allows you to keep its identity. You could use OO in a functional way, if you restrict yourself to constructors to set members, and have only reader and functional accessors. But then you lose identity, because 13:28:17 everytime your window moves over the screen, you have to actually allocate a new one with the different coordinates. 13:28:55 Jarvellis: ah yes. but other specifics, debian version, which lisp? 13:29:00 it's only been tried in sbcl i think 13:29:05 i would love someone to test it on clisp 13:29:17 (k)Ubuntu, sbcl 13:29:19 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 13:29:40 cool 13:29:46 matimago: on the other hand, it is often quite practical to use OO in just that functional way, and i do 13:30:46 Well it opens a window 13:31:23 locklace: but often OO languages lack other supporting features so this functional style is not practical. eg. no GC in C++ implies you cannot chain function calls returning new dynamically allocated objects. 13:33:26 matimago: that has nothing to do with OO, just limited languages. i don't have that problem in lisp. ;) 13:33:32 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 13:33:36 -!- Massena [n=pavle@bl9-249-164.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:34:36 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:34:41 Jarvellis: no graphics? do you get errors 13:34:55 you have to put a ~/.rlxrc file in 13:35:09 dto: i put that file in, and no graphics 13:35:16 any error messages from sbcl? 13:35:22 what does your file sayu 13:35:53 Same as yours but s/dto/jarvellis 13:36:09 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:36:20 When i do the (require :rlx) it gives me warnings 13:36:35 can you lisppaste what happens 13:36:42 sorry if this is boring :( but it will help me improve 13:36:51 you can annotate the paste 13:38:00 Jarvellis annotated #71310 with "More fail" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71310#1 13:38:22 Sorry i was doing it, but i'm slow 13:38:49 no that's fine, thanks so much for doing this 13:39:17 those aren't rlx problems, they seem to be issues related to building lispbuilder-sdl. which lisp0builder-sdl did you use? 13:39:18 It's nothing, i'm happy to help and i have no skills, so this makes me feel useful 13:39:26 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:39:44 svn co https://lispbuilder.svn.sourceforge.net/svnroot/lispbuilder/trunk lispbuilder 13:39:47 from your site 13:39:48 ok 13:39:50 hold on 13:39:55 let me do that and see if it still works. 13:39:59 ok, thanks 13:40:54 erm, i get an error about DRAW-STRING-SOLID-* 13:40:55 hold on 13:43:15 wormilwork [n=Miranda@adsl-070-155-056-058.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:28 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:43:45 splittist [n=splittis@98-26.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 13:43:48 morning 13:44:34 hi 13:46:16 ah, the day of mailing list reminders 13:46:54 Jarvellis: so it just makes a black screen? 13:47:08 dto: yeah 13:47:28 can you lisppaste all tthe standard output 13:47:35 it should emit many messages even when behaving normally 13:48:52 From the (require :rlx) or the (rlx:play "vm0")? 13:49:05 (rlx:play "vm0") 13:49:12 ok, one sec 13:52:26 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A1D0F.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:52:47 Jarvellis annotated #71310 with "Output as requested" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71310#2 13:53:42 dto: is that what you need? 13:55:14 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 13:55:44 dto: sorry, i'm not good at lisp and the messages don't all mean much to me 13:56:40 hey folks, why would this appear during loading of lispbuilder-sdl? The name "TRIVIAL-FEATURES-TESTS" does not designate any package. 13:56:40 [Condition of type SB-KERNEL:SIMPLE-PACKAGE-ERROR] 13:56:40 13:56:40 13:57:17 ok i was having the same error with svn. 13:57:27 Jarvellis: i mean the same error as in your paste. yes, thank you , 13:57:35 Jarvellis: i will try to fix this and will keep you poste 13:57:36 posted 13:57:39 :-) 13:57:41 Jarvellis: the best way to get news is join #rlx 13:57:54 jgracin [n=jgracin@93-141-26-96.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 13:58:02 Any minute now freenode's going to stop me joining channels 13:58:06 have you installed something called trivial-features? 13:58:18 it appears to contain trivial-features-tests 13:58:37 (I don't really know anything about lispbuilder-sdl, I'm afraid) 13:58:49 rsynnott: hmm, ok installed it now. didn't seem to get caught by the dependencies. i will tell luke about it 13:59:30 rsynnott: thanks, that helped 14:00:03 noid [n=Beket@athedsl-4528379.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 14:00:19 -!- noid is now known as Beket 14:01:10 athos [n=philipp@p54B84461.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:12 mega1 [n=mega@53d83491.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 14:03:43 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:58 jajcloz [n=jaj@209.6.216.149] has joined #lisp 14:04:24 elurin [n=user@85.96.232.233] has joined #lisp 14:04:32 hmm, what sort of thing do people actually do with CL SDL bindings? 14:04:53 Make rogue style games apparently 14:05:08 Although i'm wondering if it could be apropriated for a eAthena client 14:05:36 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209.6.216.149] has quit [Client Quit] 14:06:19 oudeis [n=oudeis@89.139.91.197] has joined #lisp 14:06:20 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 14:06:32 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:06:40 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1D0F.versanet.de] has quit [No route to host] 14:07:18 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:08:08 jajcloz [n=jaj@209.6.216.149] has joined #lisp 14:08:49 oh, cool, world of goo is done with sdl :) 14:08:57 esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:08:58 (fun little game I was playing the other day) 14:09:05 wasn't aware many real games used it 14:11:57 benny [n=benny@i577A2309.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:13:08 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89.139.91.197] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:14:00 SpawN [i=ASd3@cl178-162.parabole.lt] has joined #lisp 14:14:20 fooo1234 [n=noz@p2179-ipbf4107marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:14:31 http://www.sexyemilie.com/?id=217840 14:14:31 http://www.sexyemilie.com/?id=217840 14:14:33 http://www.sexyemilie.com/?id=217840 14:15:16 -!- fooo1234 [n=noz@p2179-ipbf4107marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 14:15:54 -!- SpawN [i=ASd3@cl178-162.parabole.lt] has left #lisp 14:16:24 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:16:33 -!- elurin [n=user@85.96.232.233] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:16:46 elurin [n=user@85.96.232.233] has joined #lisp 14:18:34 i thought SDL was quite popular outside the Windows-only world -- but i don't have anything to back that up, so... 14:19:26 -!- topo_ [n=topo@53.pool85-58-128.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 14:24:49 I do know it was used for porting stuff to linux before WINE was mature 14:24:50 IIRC a lot of stuff uses SDL behind the scenes 14:25:06 rsynnott: SDL and Wine do completely different stuff 14:25:17 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084246.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:26:39 although some of the games got ported using it, simply because it can serve a similar purpose to DirectX 14:28:29 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 14:29:31 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 14:29:47 ok folks. can anyone help me host a mailing list for my CL game project that we were just mentioning? i host the code on github, but perhaps the cliki people or someone might offer mailing list assistance? 14:29:57 it'll probably be very low volume 14:31:41 github doesn't do mailing lists? 14:31:53 not that i'm aware of 14:32:01 dto: common-lisp.net 14:32:05 Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 14:33:17 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 14:33:25 Massena [n=pavle@bl6-205-108.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:34:51 Good afternoon. 14:35:03 good afternoon beach 14:36:55 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:48 dthomp [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:13 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:39:56 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:16 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:40:38 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-9-150.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 14:41:30 -!- Massena [n=pavle@bl6-205-108.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:45:47 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:45:53 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:46:22 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:22 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:37 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:51:44 Massena [n=pavle@bl9-79-99.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 14:52:03 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:20 durka [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has joined #lisp 14:54:40 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 14:58:12 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:02:15 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 15:03:03 Massena_ [n=pavle@bl6-203-42.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:04:00 disumu [n=disumu@p57A270C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:28 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:05:35 SBCL 1.0.23 is tagged. 15:06:10 *nikodemus* goes into commit frenzy 15:06:17 :) 15:09:22 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-187.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:10:55 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 15:11:09 esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 15:11:48 milanj [n=milan@77.46.251.39] has joined #lisp 15:14:19 Krystof [i=8a25215e@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c8ae02fcfcd92491] has joined #lisp 15:16:55 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 15:17:55 -!- Massena [n=pavle@bl9-79-99.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:18:33 what are the settings for customizable *features* that we use for linux-ppc? 15:18:50 most importantly, do we enable gencgc? 15:22:29 I think so, unless it causes your build to break 15:23:22 well, running room with a non-nil argument reliably crashes SBCL under gencgc. 15:24:35 on powerpc-linux, I mean. 15:25:03 hawthor [i=dboswell@166-70-103-139.ip.xmission.com] has joined #lisp 15:25:08 I guess I'll upload it with gencgc. 15:25:55 -!- jsoft [n=Administ@unaffiliated/jsoft] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:26:10 running room in general seems to be asking for trouble, actaully 15:26:28 kreuter: are there any news to read about sbcl 1.0.23 and where ' 15:26:29 ? 15:26:32 i've seen it crash the linux/x86 sbcl 15:26:37 kiuma: working on it. 15:26:39 (~1.0.15) 15:26:45 oki 15:27:08 -!- hawthor [i=dboswell@166-70-103-139.ip.xmission.com] has left #lisp 15:31:04 kiuma: https://sourceforge.net/project/shownotes.php?release_id=644121&group_id=1373 15:31:09 erm 15:31:36 thanks 15:31:38 yeah, that oughtta work. 15:31:45 and now, sbcl-page. 15:32:14 I've some spare time, the prj I'm working on is nearly finished 15:32:29 CLAWS? 15:32:53 -!- fade is now known as Fade 15:33:31 Fade: CLAW is nearly finished, I'm writing the manual 15:34:12 I've splitted it into 6 projects 15:34:19 claw-as claw-demo claw-html claw-html.dojo claw.i18n connectors 15:34:41 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:47 the manual will contain full case list and there will be an online api 15:35:52 I'm also thinking abouot version 2 where there will be a new http connector that will be a mix of a threaded one and newio 15:37:07 interesting 15:37:29 v3rt [n=mor_och_@c83-252-174-7.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:38:23 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:28 mornin' 15:38:35 hello fusss 15:38:42 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:50 heatseeker [i=dboswell@166-70-103-139.ip.xmission.com] has joined #lisp 15:39:06 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a16-024.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:39:07 (defun f (a1 a2) (setf (car a2) (cons a1 a2))) will this change the value I send to a2, or does it only work locally? 15:39:23 should've been sleep 8 hours, just pulled of another all nighter 15:39:51 v3rt: it will modify the list that you passed to f 15:40:01 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:40:50 _3b: "Type Inference of Self", Agasen, et al. _good_ stuff :-) 15:41:03 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 15:41:19 v3rt: Lisp is call-by-value, but the values are references to objects, and those objects are not copied when passed as arguments or assigned. 15:41:59 v3rt: which is exactly like C... 15:42:01 v3rt: Now, had you written (setf a2 ...) then that would only have modified the value of the variable a2, local to f. 15:42:24 if the value were an integer, for instance, though, it wouldn't be modifie within the function, would it? 15:42:42 v3rt: As matimago said, this is the way it works in most languages. 15:42:53 rsynnott: ? 15:42:58 rsynnott: you can't do rplca on integers 15:43:02 Actually, it's C that happens to do it exactly like in lisp :-) 15:43:18 well, similar, anyway 15:43:32 rsynnott: what you said made no sense. 15:43:51 v3rt pasted "bindings" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71316 15:44:02 (defun bla (a) (setf a (+ a 1)) (let ((a 10)) (bla a) (princ a)) 15:44:07 will print 10, not 11 15:44:47 rsynnott: but that has nothing to do with the type of value it is. 15:45:26 no, yep, sorry, misread original question 15:45:29 curtosis [n=cmcurtis@208.176.107.226.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:00 hwo come the variable lista doesn't change inmy exmaple? 15:46:05 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:13 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@93-141-26-96.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:46:54 v3rt: because variables are not passed as parameter. Only values are passed! 15:47:02 That's what "call by value" means. 15:47:23 -!- Krystof [i=8a25215e@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c8ae02fcfcd92491] has left #lisp 15:47:33 matimago: but there is also no code for modifying the local variable in this example. 15:47:34 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 15:48:12 Indeed. 15:48:13 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 15:48:19 v3rt: You are confused. In the paste, you talk about what the return should be. But then you talk about wanting the varible lista to be modified. 15:48:44 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 15:48:47 v3rt: plus, you don't give us the initial value of lista. 15:49:10 No I get it now. I was thinking that all parameters where pointers to values, not like C. 15:49:18 crod [n=cmell@cb8a54-174.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:49:20 yes I forgot that, it's '() 15:49:35 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:49:42 I think modifying '() is undefined, isn't it? 15:49:51 v3rt: there is no way that adding 'b and 6 to it would give ((A . 5)) 15:50:06 v3rt: did you manually modify that example? 15:50:14 rsynnott: (rplaca 'car nil) doesn't work indeed. 15:51:12 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 15:51:27 (let ((a '())) (push 5 a)) 15:51:38 works on sbcl, for instance, but I don't think it is guaranteed 15:51:44 it modifies place 15:52:09 rsynnott: push modifies the binding, not the value the binding points to. 15:52:09 rsynnott: of course it is guaranteed. What do you mean? 15:52:14 v3rt pasted "bindings2" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71319 15:52:50 v3rt: That's more like it. 15:53:06 unless you've tried it before, do (set nil t) just for giggles 15:53:12 Can I use setf to change bindings here? 15:53:35 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 15:53:37 v3rt: Sure. (setf bindings (add-binding! ...)) 15:54:02 v3rt: But I think you will be surprised wrt the result. 15:54:32 but not inside add-bindings! ? so that (add-binding! 'a 1 bindings) will make (equal bindings '((A . 1))) ? 15:55:05 v3rt: that right, yes. 15:55:17 ah 15:55:18 come on guys, when are you gonna break out the Plotkin references? 15:55:48 v3rt: But in addition, if you *don't* pass the empty list to your function, you are going to end up modifying the car of it, which is very likely not what you want. 15:56:35 v3rt annotated #71319 with "alt function" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71319#1 15:57:16 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-241-126.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:57:17 is there any difference between these then? since setf doesn't change the list sent to the function.. 15:57:36 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:57:40 are you not just rebidining the symbol? 15:57:57 in which case, you won't have the same binding outside of the scope of the function. 15:58:14 v3rt: if you always pass the empty list as the last argument, then they will be the same, yes. 15:58:43 v3rt: and if you don't, you'll be very surprised about the result, I think. 15:58:49 I don't get it, what difference does setf do in this case then? 15:59:12 v3rt: it is never exeuted, because the endp is always true 15:59:25 rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:24 -!- setf [i=8f5df958@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-53667a4ff59a25d3] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:01:01 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B84461.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:09 and if I would send a list? '((A . 5) (B . 6)) for example 16:01:16 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A270C0.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 16:01:56 nikodemus: re string to octets, the simple-base-string case does the same thing as ub8-bash-copy, except hopefully slower. 16:06:42 segv [n=mb@p4FC1CF6C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:12 -!- kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bb2e0de7f8c69eed] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:08:44 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 16:08:46 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 16:12:39 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:49 right 16:17:02 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:38 jjong [n=jjong@203.246.179.177] has joined #lisp 16:19:48 iirc the whole thing is shamefully slow in all sorts of ways. a custom vop or two would go a long way there, i think 16:21:09 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:23:45 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:26:52 v3rt: I think I told you, you would be surprised. 16:27:01 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:27:12 (aside from the fact that you are not allowed to modify constants like that. 16:28:15 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 16:29:12 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:09 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 16:30:16 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:30:22 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit [Client Quit] 16:31:41 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:45 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@87.54.43.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:34:08 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 16:34:51 is there something like "second" for multiple-values? 16:35:09 hefner_ [n=hefner@scatterbrain.cbp.pitt.edu] has joined #lisp 16:35:26 (second (multiple-value-list (values 1 2))) => 2 16:35:27 cYmen: it is not possible. 16:35:35 cYmen: nth-value 16:35:58 oh, i forgot about nth-value 16:36:01 lnostdal: this is not like SECOND. SECOND is a function. NTH-VALUE and MULTIPLE-VALUE-LIST are macros. 16:36:05 ah pretty 16:36:17 matimago: well as they correctly assumed I don't care about that ;) 16:36:27 Good then. :-) 16:37:00 (I assumed that you already knew nth-value). 16:37:01 ok, yeah, matimago .. AND has surprised me a couple of times :) 16:37:02 wow...it's (nth-value 1 ...) for the second 16:37:03 yuck 16:37:26 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:37:32 cYmen: so wrap it in a function if 0-based indexing offends you 16:37:35 nah, 0 based indexing is the right thing imho 16:38:15 -!- dthomp [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:38:34 I don't know...I'm used to it with arrays of course 16:38:36 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:48 but how does "give me zeroeth entry of the list" sound? 16:39:03 whatever ^^ 16:39:05 cYmen: inefficient in the general case 16:39:32 i think it makes sense that indexing for lists and arrays and multiple-values match 16:39:35 using nth anything on a list is a bad smell 16:40:39 dlowe: it is? 16:40:39 Adamant__ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:40:44 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:40:58 Depends on how many times you use it. 16:40:58 rread [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:09 ? 16:42:15 cYmen: any time you want to access the nth member of the list, the list must be traversed N times 16:42:27 cYmen: that can add up quickly 16:42:42 Oh, I see...well yeah 16:42:44 Adamant___ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:42:47 If you used it O(1) it's ok. If you use it O(n) times, the resulting complexity will be O(n˛). 16:43:00 kreuter: ping 16:43:01 So a list is represented as a linked list in memory ? 16:43:07 Beket: yes. 16:43:08 chandler: hey 16:43:16 kreuter: No problems with the sbcl-page update? 16:43:27 matimago: it _can_ be ok. Many times you should be using another data structure entirely, depending on what part you want to be slow 16:43:30 -!- Adamant___ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:43:34 -!- Adamant__ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 16:43:42 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 16:43:44 *chandler* starts kicking off builds 16:43:45 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:54 chandler: not really. I updated the makefile slightly, to let the user say 'make ... SBCL=/some/random/sbcl'. 16:44:09 kreuter: Ah, that's not a bad idea. I always just use what's in $PATH. 16:44:11 I believe it will default to just "sbcl". 16:44:35 I'll try it out in a minute when I start uploading binaries 16:45:03 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:55 Adamant__ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:23 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46070.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:29 I think I asked this before, but don't recall the answer: does anybody like how sb-grovel's generated files signal style-warnings about constants that weren't found at grovel-time? 16:46:37 ejs1 [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 16:47:01 -!- Adamant__ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 16:47:04 Adamant__ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:47 -!- Adamant__ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 16:49:19 -!- ejs1 [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit [Client Quit] 16:49:28 manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 16:50:13 i don't really either like or mislike it either way 16:50:24 "sb-grovel just is" :) 16:50:41 so you won't miss the warnings if they go away? 16:50:49 i don't think so 16:51:09 Adamant__ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:21 (I mostly see them and think "it's not at all interesting that some other platform has this constant.") 16:53:59 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:54:49 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:55:28 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:55 -!- v3rt [n=mor_och_@c83-252-174-7.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 16:56:15 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:57:29 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:58:45 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:59:39 willb [n=wibenton@wireless34.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 17:00:15 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:00:17 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [No route to host] 17:01:06 -!- elurin [n=user@85.96.232.233] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:32 Adamant___ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:57 -!- Adamant___ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:04:19 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 17:04:27 Adamant_ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:34 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 17:08:29 josemanuel [n=josemanu@78.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:08:33 -!- Adamant__ [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 17:11:30 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:05 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 17:12:19 -!- luis changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language: , . common-lisp.net back in service, please email problems to admin@common-lisp.net. New: SBCL 1.0.23, cl-net-snmp 5.19, yason-0.1, trivial-features 0.4, CFFI 0.10.3, series 2.2.10, trivial-garbage 0.17, usocket 0.4.0 17:13:57 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:22 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Success] 17:14:51 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:16 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:15:50 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:15 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:16:48 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C3F3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:14 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:17:43 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:18:06 -!- Adamant_ [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 17:18:08 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 17:19:33 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:21 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 17:21:48 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d83491.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:21:57 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 17:25:35 j_king [n=jking@mortar.walled.net] has joined #lisp 17:26:06 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:26:56 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:12 Quadresc_ [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:14 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:28:54 -!- durka [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has quit [] 17:30:13 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:32:49 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:45 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:34:17 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:21 -!- Quadresc_ [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:35:59 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 17:37:17 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:20 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.249.228] has joined #lisp 17:37:22 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:38:27 topo [n=topo@53.pool85-58-128.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:39:10 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:21 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:41:05 mulligan [n=user@78.52.51.37] has joined #lisp 17:41:33 It seems that I am allowed to use reserved keywords as arguments in functions, eg (defun get-last-item(list) ...) 17:42:05 it's not a keyword 17:42:42 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:43:09 it is just a symbol, and yes, you can use symbols, which already name another function 17:43:59 I see. Thanks stassats. 17:44:09 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:44:21 but heed 11.1.2.1.2. 17:44:52 I'm curious, what's the opinion of grad school here? 17:45:12 for phd? 17:45:13 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 17:45:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 17:45:50 I complete my undergrad this month, and while I know I'll be working in the immediate future, unsure on the masters/phd side of things. 17:46:31 considering what's happening world wide economically, it's probably good time to enter the ivory tower. 17:46:32 well, if you can get a funded phd which interests you, that's always nice :) 17:46:59 I was never convinced about the utility of masters (particularly taught masters) for most subject areas 17:47:00 *Draggor* is feeling the burnout of school currently, wants to work for a year or two. 17:47:08 Ahh 17:47:14 Fade, What is the ivory tower? 17:47:19 academia 17:48:01 I see. Back to my thesis, then. 17:48:23 Draggor: are phds generally funded in your country 17:48:25 ? 17:48:36 I have no idea, never really looked into it before 17:49:13 Is it ok to comment inside the body of a function or is it considered a distraction among lispers? 17:49:20 -!- splittist [n=splittis@98-26.1-85.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 17:49:22 -!- topo [n=topo@53.pool85-58-128.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 17:49:43 Beket, that's okay. if it's very important, you might want to have it as a doc string. 17:50:09 Cool. Thanks tic. 17:50:26 there are different styles for different comments 17:51:08 Beket: probably best to do it as a docstring if you're just describing what the function does 17:51:21 don't remember whether http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps covers comments, but it's a good paper anyway 17:51:22 if something weird is done within the function, might make sense to comment that there 17:52:21 stassats: i've downloaded an hour ago. It is very good, although kind of advanced for my level. 17:52:39 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["Go Canada!"] 17:52:56 topo [n=topo@53.pool85-58-128.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:55:16 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 17:56:11 nikodemus: trailing whitespace in tests/array.pure.lisp commit in 1.0.23.4. 17:57:45 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-f9135284716122b4] has joined #lisp 17:57:46 damn 17:58:15 I'm gonna do another commit today, so I'll deal with it, if you don't first. 17:58:26 go ahead 17:58:40 i'm tidying up the code page stuff for committage 17:58:59 (slicing it into a few separate installments) 17:59:05 I have yet to figure out why I care about trailing whitespace, but I do. *sigh* 17:59:31 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 17:59:34 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:59:44 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:00:47 luis: in the SBCL case, the build process strips trailing whitespace, and so you end up with local changes when a file in the repo has trailing space. 18:00:59 *nikodemus* sets show-trailing-whitespace to t 18:01:20 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:01:29 If my documentation string is too long that violates the 80 columns per line rule, is there a way to break it ? In C I could that with '\' symbol, if anyone is familiar with it. 18:01:36 kreuter: Could you also add an addition test case to deftype.impure.test which tests for nuking the deftype lambda-list when redefining a deftype via defstruct, and perhaps also define-condition? 18:01:44 maybe we should make the build compain about trailing whitespace and tabs instead of frobbing them 18:01:55 manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 18:01:55 Beket: just press return 18:01:58 tcr: ok. 18:02:06 kreuter: sure, but why do people care about trailing spaces at all? 18:02:13 Beket: In emacs, you can use M-q to autoformat text paragraphs. 18:02:28 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 18:03:08 Thanks guys! 18:03:31 luis: I bet you could find some sequence of emacs commands that does the wrong thing only if there's trailing whitespace. can't think of one off the top of my head, though. 18:04:13 kreuter: you might try to justify it like that, but that's not the real reason why we care. 18:04:38 luis: hogwash! this neurosis is perfectly rational! 18:04:44 *if* everybody canonizes whitespace properly, we don't get whitespace in diffs 18:04:56 which isn't working quite perfectly, obviously 18:05:10 ejs [n=eugen@92-49-228-199.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has joined #lisp 18:05:27 it's also irritating to hit C-e and end up ----> there 18:05:31 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:08:09 Ragnaroek [i=54a67da4@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9d289c831e15e285] has joined #lisp 18:11:11 Adamant [n=Adamant@130.254.102.158] has joined #lisp 18:12:54 -!- Ragnaroek [i=54a67da4@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9d289c831e15e285] has quit [Client Quit] 18:15:43 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 18:19:39 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:20:20 curtosis_ [n=cmcurtis@208.176.107.235.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:31 sebell [n=sebell@mail.arcurve.com] has joined #lisp 18:22:44 -!- curtosis [n=cmcurtis@208.176.107.226.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:27:50 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 18:28:41 luis: Whitespace changes are a constant source of irritation (merge conflicts etc.), and they make diffs harder to read. 18:29:08 luis: IME, the bigger the project the likelier is it to have a whitespace policy. 18:29:39 oh, yes, trailing whitespace can be terribly irritating 18:29:49 tends to bring on svn's dreaded 'C' 18:30:05 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:14 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 18:32:06 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 18:33:36 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 18:34:39 hrm... ccl doesn't seem to like (declare (type (simple-array double-float *) ...)) but rather expects (simple-array double-float (*)) 18:34:53 any language lawyers in the house? 18:36:36 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:36:42 slyrus_: they don't mean the same thing at all. The former declares a simple-array of arbitrary rank and the latter one of rank 1. 18:37:06 oh, right. I knew that :) 18:37:12 it's been a while :) 18:37:35 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:39:24 slyrus_: (simple-array foo 1024) instead of (simple-array foo (1024)) is worse, if only for the way SBCL expands the first type (: 18:40:37 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:41:57 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 18:45:34 -!- phao [n=phao@20158145055.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:45:52 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:36 elurin [n=user@85.96.232.233] has joined #lisp 18:49:45 phao [n=phao@20158145055.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 18:50:37 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:11 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:12 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:54:24 Tordek_ [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 18:57:39 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:59:47 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:57 masm [n=user@213.22.190.91] has joined #lisp 19:02:06 cl-ppcre:regex-replace-all can take a function as the replacement argument, how cool. 19:03:15 Where's xach? I need to know how I can get a list of actives timers. I think I started a few. :) 19:03:53 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 19:04:35 (sb-ext:list-all-timers) ;; ? 19:05:04 te [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-199971964d731738] has joined #lisp 19:06:12 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:06:24 luis: Worth a blog posting? 19:06:54 tcr: nah, I think implementations in other languages do the same. 19:07:50 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 19:09:02 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 19:09:04 dthomp [n=dat@c-24-22-103-86.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:47 it's nice to know it's there, though 19:09:52 is it a new thing? 19:09:57 lnostdal: hm...so sbcl has it's own timers? maybe there's interference with the package 19:10:11 because the example doesn't seem to work for me :/ 19:10:47 cYmen, yup; http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Timers.html 19:10:48 cYmen: i think most of the API Xach developed was merged in some time ago. 19:10:50 -!- ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:11:10 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:51 Good evening. 19:11:56 -!- masm [n=user@213.22.190.91] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:12:20 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:12:34 booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:39 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-19-17.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:03 -!- _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:14:34 masm [n=user@213.22.190.91] has joined #lisp 19:14:45 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 19:14:56 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-19-17.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:16:29 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-19-17.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:56 but it doesn't work with other lisps then? or is it compatible to loading his timers on another lisp? 19:17:19 dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:12 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:18:26 _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 19:19:43 for the most part 19:20:03 http://common-lisp.net/project/trivial-timeout/ i guess timeout isn't the same as a timer, i dunno -- maybe there should be a trivial-timer? :} 19:20:44 i hope not -- asynch signals are evil, and the more hoops people have to jump thru to use them the better! 19:20:50 (almost serious...) 19:21:47 rtra_ [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 19:22:24 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host36.190-138-154.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:22:54 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:23:00 Wow..I'm being an idiot again...How do I unschedule a timer if don't have any references to it? 19:23:46 list-all-timers returns all timers .. they have names 19:23:56 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 19:24:06 .. sb-ext:make-timer has a :name keyarg 19:25:24 lnostdal: I didn't use that. Also sb-ext:unschedule-timer seems to want a timer not a name, right? 19:25:39 what are you using? 19:25:47 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:26:06 I'm just experimenting...What am I using for what? 19:26:10 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.205.27] has joined #lisp 19:26:36 Tordek [n=tordek@192-1-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 19:26:43 cYmen: what are you using timers for? 19:26:43 (mapcar #'unschedule-time (list-all-timers)) 19:27:00 s/time/timer/ 19:27:02 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 19:27:10 cYmen pasted "timer magic" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71338 19:27:42 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [] 19:28:08 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:28:21 -!- masm [n=user@213.22.190.91] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:29:01 http://paste.lisp.org/display/71339 19:29:08 oh .. yeah, i pasted too :) 19:29:25 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 19:29:50 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-155-98.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:58 nikodemus: Isn't there a default timer? Will I get in trouble if i stop them all? There are two here and I only created one so...? 19:31:42 .. of course .. you must check the return value of FIND .. it'll return if the timer has already executed or has been unscheduled before or something 19:31:57 -!- dthomp [n=dat@c-24-22-103-86.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:31:59 return NIL* 19:33:20 I wonder how much cruft could be removed from SBCL if it only had CL sans IO? 19:33:21 *tic* reads mcclim.pdf 19:33:28 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:33:36 pkhuong, that bad? 19:34:06 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/session] has joined #lisp 19:34:07 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/session] has quit [Nick collision from Idoru.] 19:34:17 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5bc12568ea0034f1] has joined #lisp 19:34:47 tic: well, there's serve-event, all the transcoding stuff, stream, ... 19:35:14 pkhuong, how little IO do you think could be left of CL and still have a somewhat useful Lisp? 19:35:23 s/left of/left in/ 19:35:35 not, there are normally no defailt tomers 19:35:40 default, even 19:36:00 pkhuong: file compiler :) 19:36:11 only COMPILE needed then :P 19:36:14 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.216] has joined #lisp 19:36:39 nikodemus: if we could have a slimmed down deployment environment ;) 19:36:46 -!- dnm_ is now known as dnm 19:37:08 tree shaker? 19:37:20 an ax! 19:37:24 I think I asked this before, but would it be possible to compile fasls from a full SBCL and load them into a minimal sbcl image for deployment? 19:37:40 why shake it if you can cut it down... 19:38:01 why cut it down when you can burn it? 19:38:38 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:06 hefner_: IIRC, if you want much of CLOS, you pretty much need the whole shebang. (modulo the I/O stuff). 19:39:31 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:39:34 tic: you can do workable (and with non-sucky performance too) IO via the FFI. 19:40:26 hefner: dependecies in the fasls are one thing -- but i'm not sure what you mean with full vs. minimal? 19:40:26 just default vs monster.core? 19:40:28 pkhuong, ah! 19:40:30 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:40:57 if so, should not be a problem -- aside from the deps, of course 19:41:04 nikodemus: I thought hefner_ was talking about something like CMUCL's "small" cores. 19:41:12 nikodemus: well, a hypothetical minimal core, whatever that entails. I don't have any idea how the space breaks down, to suggest what you might take out. 19:41:29 other than, perhaps, the entire compiler :) 19:42:12 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:42:50 *pkhuong* wonders if he can find a sponsor for a tree shaker (: 19:44:03 Juho wrote one once. he said it didn't do much, if you wanted much of anything in the shaken image. 19:45:13 Did he remove the entire compiler? 19:45:14 kreuter: yup. But since I'm writing my own GC, I get to fix things up as I like: replace gfs with regular functions, remove all but the bare essential from type information, etc. 19:45:44 luke [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 19:45:44 chandler: I think he said you can't do that if you want any CLOS. 19:45:50 also, assume symbol-function isn't needed. 19:46:11 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:46:31 pkhuong: what is this you are talking about GC? 19:46:40 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:43 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [No route to host] 19:47:02 -!- luke [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has quit [Client Quit] 19:47:05 luke_ [n=luke@208.87.19.36] has joined #lisp 19:47:29 -!- luke_ is now known as Balooga 19:48:00 nikodemus: Lisp-side copying GC. I'm working on distributed computations again. 19:48:49 weitz.de down? 19:49:07 ehu: yes. will be back up later this week 19:49:22 I'm having trouble downloading flexi-streams 19:49:25 ok 19:49:39 ehu: svn://bknr.net/svn/trunk/thirdparty/flexi-streams 19:49:44 ehu: not even via ediware? 19:49:48 -!- mulligan [n=user@78.52.51.37] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:50:06 dto: 'trivial-features' dependency in lispbuilder-sdl? 19:50:35 pkhuong: ! as a replacement for gencgc? 19:50:50 michaelw: where is that? 19:51:01 H4ns: good idea 19:51:17 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 19:51:34 Balooga: yes 19:51:45 Balooga: i had to install it explicitly. 19:51:48 Balooga: new ranged combat video: http://dto.mamalala.org/rlx-ranged.ogv 19:52:05 nikodemus: no, just to be able to send portions of the heap across a socket, or in a file. Doing the real GC in CL sounds like hell; generating C would make sense, though. 19:52:09 dto: I'm looking at the video now :) 19:52:21 -!- elurin [n=user@85.96.232.233] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:52:31 pkhuong: oh, cool 19:52:34 Balooga: you shouuld join #rlx and our mailing list source code thing project site 19:52:42 dto: I think it's a CFFI dependency. 19:53:01 hmm 19:53:15 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 19:53:16 nikodemus: that's how I learned just how much space FORMAT or using streams consumes (: 19:55:02 dto: Oh.... new svn for lispbuilder-sdl. 19:55:19 dto: http://code.google.com/p/lispbuilder/ 19:55:25 ah cool 19:55:30 got to change that 19:55:33 in my INSTALL file 19:55:45 but for now i recommend people install the ASDF ones, i'm testing against that 19:56:04 dto: that's the new project homepage. the SVN instructions are there too. 19:56:23 dto: the asdf ones are up to date as of last night. 19:57:23 dto: Yes, CFFI now depends on BABEL, ALENANDRIA and TRIVIAL-FEATURES. 19:57:38 what do you think of my cool bullets :) 19:59:21 I think the video is awsome :) 19:59:40 vasa [n=vasa@mm-155-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 19:59:53 Balooga: i am finding i have to do (require :trivial-features-tests) every time i start sbcl 19:59:57 Balooga: thanks :) 20:00:38 dto: I would ask about that on the CFFI mailing list. 20:01:12 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:02:48 Balooga: i want this to be a fast-paced rogue-like shoot em up 20:04:21 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:06:13 dto: it looks good. 20:06:21 CptPicard [n=picard@a91-152-246-51.elisa-laajakaista.fi] has joined #lisp 20:06:35 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:07:48 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 20:08:48 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:08:55 cmo-0 [n=user@auh-as20461.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #lisp 20:10:06 elurin [n=user@85.96.232.233] has joined #lisp 20:11:16 -!- rtra_ [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:11:20 Balooga: i'm planning lots of crazy behaviours 20:12:17 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 20:12:23 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-169.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:12:28 and grenades, I hope 20:12:43 i've pulled sbcl source using git, which compiled and ran the tests with apparent success (1.23.4). now when i'm trying to load clx i get the error about dependent.lisp file while trying to load it 20:13:17 "works for me" 20:14:08 dto: are you using any of the other packages, or only -sdl? 20:14:11 dto: rogue-like? 20:14:22 Balooga: one of my own packages called CLON. 20:14:25 Balooga: but it's small 20:14:43 i'm using just lispbuilder sdl and also lisspbuildersdl-image 20:14:48 i plan to use gfx and mixer 20:15:06 i want to implement atmospheric music that changes with the moment, with the MOD music facility 20:15:17 where you can trigger specific patterns to play 20:15:24 ahaas: like Nethack or Angband 20:15:55 ok, I was confused b/c you said "fast-paced shoot em up" 20:15:58 cmo-0: what was your previous SBCL version? 20:15:59 yes :) 20:16:03 i want to combine the two 20:16:23 (you many need to update CLX as well) 20:16:28 dto: Where is the video? 20:16:32 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:16:40 ahaas: : http://dto.mamalala.org/rlx-ranged.ogv 20:16:48 try to make it fullscreen 20:17:31 brb 20:17:39 dto: Oh, I remember this! Cool! 20:18:23 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 20:19:14 thanks, i did a new asdf-install:install, and it worked. thanks again 20:20:49 does anyone have any opinions as to what the interface for a GUI library in lisp should be like? 20:21:10 I'm doing a wxwidgets one, but so far I'm more or less just exposing ugly wxc calls 20:21:47 rsynnott: it should expose the gui library's object model as clos objects. 20:24:21 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:24:25 it should probably resemble the gadget layer of clim, which is fairly well designed 20:25:31 any updated clue and clio libraries? 20:25:47 wxc (the C interface to wxWidgets) rips out a lot of wxWidgets' object model, unfortunately 20:26:57 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:28:06 rsynnott: then it makes sense to use a custom object model - maybe you can go with hefner's suggestion. 20:30:25 i don't know anyone who uses or supports clue or clio -- they are AFAIK pretty dead 20:31:51 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:32:56 but to use cl with clx is a kind of overdowing, i've started doing classes and gf ontop of clx. so i thought if it is already done? and how to build on that instead! 20:33:13 durka [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has joined #lisp 20:33:18 s/overdowing/overdoing 20:34:25 *hefner_* ought to write something interesting using just clx for the experience 20:35:28 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:35:42 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:35:46 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [] 20:35:47 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:35:58 -!- Massena_ [n=pavle@bl6-203-42.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [] 20:36:33 I wonder what all that nikodemuspatchery was about today 20:36:55 hefner: I have done a little of this, and it really amounts to writing C code in CL. 20:36:55 rpg, memo from chandler: context: your docstrings patch on sbcl-devel should have been a unified context diff 20:37:06 the cl-clue package with debian or ubuntu (which includes clue, clio and pictures) has a date stamp of 20050523 20:38:01 chandler: Ah, got it. That was so long ago... Sorry, I usually generate my lisp diffs as: "cvs diff --ignore-space-change -u -F '^(def' " 20:38:09 a snippet from #lisp long ago... 20:38:23 rpg: that sounds sad. I'd like to imagine I can somehow shed the crushing complexity of clim and do fancy things. 20:38:41 hefner_ 20:38:52 *rpg* is having trouble with his new client's completion... 20:39:03 cYmen_ [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 20:39:03 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:39:15 No, you can shed the crushing complexity of CLIM and do pettifogging little tiny things. 20:39:42 *hefner_* learns a new word! 20:40:00 Actually, this ties to rsynott's question --- my experience was that I found CLX less helpful than I might like, because I had to read all the C-oriented X documentation. 20:40:24 That's not really fair to CLX, which did a fair amount to make it more CL-like, I suppose. 20:41:08 But it does tie back to a pervasive problem with exporting UI libraries through CL --- all too often one simply ends up with a library that can only be used if one understands how to write the corresponding C or C++ code. 20:41:45 pettifog! that is a great word. 20:44:34 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 20:48:32 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit ["Induhvidual Quote: “Is it hot in me or what?”"] 20:48:48 I actually don't know that there is a verb like that, or any form other than "pettifoggery" in modern English (well, sorta modern). 20:49:06 rpg: there is 20:51:17 -!- rcy [n=rcy@shop.freegeekvancouver.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:52:47 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a54-174.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:54:26 Adamant [n=Adamant@AASU-196-61.Armstrong.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:01:44 my current plan is to put a nice interface over stuff as I use it 21:02:11 rather than covering the whole of wxWidgets in one shot (it's rather big, and includes a lot of stuff one would probably never want to use from lisp) 21:02:24 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF6E3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:02:54 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@78.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 21:03:37 It seems to me likely that part of the popularity of Tk might be, paradoxically, the impoverished scripting language from which it was intended to be used... 21:04:03 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 21:04:12 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:04:43 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.216] has quit [] 21:05:36 All tcl offered was very simple slot-setters, so we didn't get a complicated API that was hard to port to other programming languages. 21:06:09 Not to mention that we aren't expected to use glade, eclipse, or some KDE thing to make our uis. 21:06:10 crod [n=cmell@cad43e-086.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:06:51 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:19 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 21:07:28 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:08:07 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-079-090.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:38 rpg: in the case of glade, nobody forces you to use it 21:09:48 but it spares you a lot of code 21:10:01 Is there CLIM for Windows? 21:10:10 Right. I'm sure you can write all that swing boilerplate in emacs, too, but everyone uses eclipse... 21:11:12 What I'm saying is that they all have these complex networks of objects instead of the very simple tk style layout, so they are hard to port. 21:11:58 ths [n=ths@X669a.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 21:12:04 yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has joined #lisp 21:12:37 -!- Beket [n=Beket@athedsl-4528379.home.otenet.gr] has quit [] 21:14:54 swing's basic layout stuff is okay, IIRC 21:15:24 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb49f7.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:15:42 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:45 rpg: yet ports (at least of gtk) do exist 21:15:57 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-155-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:21:39 fe[nl]ix: Sure, but the question is how helpful they are. Actually, gtk seems somewhat OK. But compare the KDE libraries, which seem to be essentially unusable outside C++. 21:22:52 rsynnott: it's ok, but the minute you want to tailor something, you're in this horrible mess where everything's an object, and you have to create zillions of them, and wade far too deep into the hierarchy. 21:22:59 rpg: yes, and that's a problem caused by C++ 21:23:04 just ignore KDE and you're fine 21:23:28 Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.6.205.27] has joined #lisp 21:23:49 fe[nl]ix: Probably --- I know it always struck me as funny that Mandriva, the Linux distro I used to use, was heavily KDE, but when they wanted to write their own config tools, they used perl + gtk. 21:24:15 fe[nl]ix: Although KDE is more attractive, at least until recently you couldn't even plausibly script it from perl. 21:24:28 Given the relative popularity of HTML + CSS, I wonder if a sensible approach to user interfaces (particularly for cross-platform applications) would be to embed a WebKit view and provide Lisp access to the DOM. 21:24:55 You won't want to write a game using this, of course. 21:25:23 TDT [n=TDT@dhcp80ff8685.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 21:26:23 chandler: i'd like that! 21:27:24 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:27:51 chandler, have you seen HOP? 21:27:58 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:28:07 Fare: I don't recognize the name. 21:28:26 -!- crod [n=cmell@cad43e-086.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:28:46 bdowning_ [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:09 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:29:18 crod [n=cmell@cad4e7-246.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 21:29:31 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:29:35 hop.inria.fr 21:29:47 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:22 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:30:23 that, or shriram's web language. 21:30:30 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:42 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@auh-as20461.alshamil.net.ae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:31:04 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:31:10 Fare: as far as i understand, the discussion is targeted towards the question how one could write contemporary guis in common lisp. 21:31:56 well, the answer is that the scheme guys do it easily, and not all of them using continuations 21:32:19 Fare: eh? 21:33:04 Fare: i'm not quite sure how i can create a gui knowing that "the scheme guys do it easily, and not all of them using continuations" 21:33:20 by looking at the scheme code they wrote? 21:33:20 Fare: (in common lisp, that is) 21:33:37 then porting it / getting inspiration from it. 21:33:55 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:34:09 Fare: ah, now i get it. 21:34:11 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 21:35:04 unless you believe CL is so inferior to scheme that you cannot possibly reproduce the techniques used in these systems -- in which case you probably shouldn't be coding in CL. 21:35:55 Fare: well, one could look at any old other gui library for inspiration. the question really is how one can come to something that is useable in common lisp using limited resources. 21:36:19 once again, Scheme is reasonably similar to CL. 21:36:24 esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:36:37 so even if you have no imagination, you can "just" port the code. 21:36:39 Fare: making a webkit dom accessible from cl seems to be a useful idea, as it does not require much design work and leverages (hu) html and css knowledge. 21:37:21 producing webpages that can be viewed with an existing browser works, too, and is simpler 21:37:29 and easier to deploy 21:37:40 and you don't have to maintain the browser 21:37:58 just produce the javascript that will modify the DOM for you. 21:38:31 so consider that the DOM is already interfaced to CL -- only the API is to send JS instructions. 21:38:48 Fare: i don't believe in generating javascript so much. to make that a good approach, it must work perfectly as otherwise you'll be in hell when developing applications and your automatic js generator fails. 21:39:16 use an existing js library to abstract over the browser-specific crap 21:39:40 don't try to generate mad fu js -- just enough to access your DOM. 21:40:12 H4ns: Generating Javascript can be an enormous benefit 21:40:17 or do try to generate it -- but detect old/broken browsers and degrade behaviour 21:40:44 do as you all like. i'd like to either use javascript or cl, but not both at the same time. 21:41:06 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:41:17 then use an existing cl library for js, and don't go out of bounds with it. 21:41:33 Fare: yeah. like "don't stumble over any of our bugs" 21:42:03 if you think you can have fewer bugs by interfacing CL to webkit... just do it. 21:42:11 -!- booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:42:28 Fare: i have no intention doing it, but if it existed, i'd like to use it. 21:42:38 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 21:44:36 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:46:04 generating js doesn't play well with the tools and kind of breaks the workflow 21:46:21 the one part where i really liked it was when writing openlaszlo applications 21:46:42 cause you had to interleave xml with javascript anyway so lisp took a bit of the pain away 21:46:47 manuel_, what tools? 21:46:54 debugger for example 21:47:03 -!- ejs [n=eugen@92-49-228-199.dynamic.peoplenet.ua] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:47:07 Fare: note: this year is 2008 a.d. 21:47:15 Fare: every browser has a debugger today. 21:47:16 H4ns, yes, still in the dark ages 21:47:34 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:48:21 manuel_: How would generating Javascript be any worse than hand writing it? 21:48:27 -!- crod [n=cmell@cad4e7-246.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:48:33 writing interactive UIs in HTML+CSS+Javascript is a pain you should only wish on your enemies 21:48:34 (or generating calls to C++) 21:48:43 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:48:58 how is it worse than generating calls to a C++ library? 21:48:58 sohail: i enjoy writing HTML+CSS+Javascript these days 21:49:14 so what do people think of my plan to revolutionize FOSS gaming with Lisp? 21:49:15 H4ns: what framework (or at least lang) 21:49:25 dto: more lisp! 21:49:28 sebell: well the syntax is pretty ok as i'm used to C 21:49:29 H4ns: clojure? ;) 21:49:35 If you are going to make webapps, first make it work with pure HTML, no JS, please... 21:49:43 p_l: no. 21:49:48 dto: how will it revolutionize it? 21:49:51 sellout: unfortunately not. 21:49:54 H4ns, eek.. Maybe I am alone in this thinking then 21:49:57 madnificent: i'm not using a framework. 21:50:05 the cool thing about javascript is that you can hide a lot of the http request and form handling pain 21:50:22 sohail: maybe you've got prejudices that stem from the old days of navigator. 21:50:23 which is what hurts me most when writing webapps 21:50:26 H4ns: Why not? (Unless you have a guarantee of support, like with most 'intranet' apps) 21:50:34 p_l: Don't be rediculous, HTML is for web _pages_, not applications 21:50:37 with firebug the whole process is quite enjoyable really 21:50:38 Fare: i think the pervasive object orientedness and cross platformess and all the cool math i'm trying to put in will create a cool game 21:50:43 H4ns: I just bought the Programming Clojure PDF from PragProg, since they had a 25% off sale. 21:50:48 H4ns, no I've got prejudices from using and writing those kind of apps 21:50:49 Fare: by revolutionize, well that's a bit exaggerated 21:50:50 cool maths? 21:50:53 -!- durka [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has quit [] 21:51:01 Fare: procedural content generation 21:51:08 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:51:12 Fare: maybe i can give a presentation at one of the lisp meetings about it :) 21:51:13 ooness + xplatformness => java didn't revolutionize games. 21:51:15 for 10 minutes 21:51:16 sebell: I prefer the interface to be accessible (even if in limited, but usable, form) with JS disabled. I know, I am weird. 21:51:23 I believe you'd need to have a MVvC system (Model View subView Controller) system to decently make webapps. By adding an extra layer of views, you can use MVC the way it was intended to work outside of webapps. 21:51:57 p_l: That's fair enough, but some types of UIs don't have a mapping to such a degenerate case 21:51:58 Fare: maybe it will not revolutionize gaming but i think it might change peoples concept of roguelikes 21:52:18 p_l, enhance UCW or weblocks to have graceful degradation in face of absent JS support 21:52:35 sebell: Well, I had seen many types of GUIs that don't really work for me ;-) 21:52:42 UCW has kind of the same drawbacks as using parenscript in a webapp context 21:52:46 when something goes wrong it's a pain 21:52:55 p_l: i write applications, not pages. it's really two different things. one can do both, but demanding pages first is kind of silly. 21:53:03 is there a possible way to make wrong things not a pain? 21:53:25 i think, good debugger and tools support, which is what makes lisp pretty comfortable for me 21:53:26 sellout: i liked reading the first beta, but i'm looking forward for the paper version. 21:53:33 *p_l* currently develops webapps mostly using Ruby with 0 JS where possible. Writing in Lisp is in works. 21:53:41 H4ns, try DrScheme. 21:54:08 p_l: i write js applications, not web apps. if you don't have js, you can't use them. it is that simple. 21:54:13 p_l: I feel sad when using ruby... rails is fairly nice though 21:54:15 Fare: to do exactly what? 21:54:40 what exactly are you trying to do? 21:54:48 madnificent: Merb IMHO is a lot nicer. Doesn't force you to include everything and the kitchen sink. 21:55:08 divinebovine [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 21:55:47 Fare: i have applauded chandler's idea that cl bindings for webkit would be cool. 21:55:51 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 21:56:05 p_l: never checked it out, and probably never will. I believe the language is an important factor of the framework, since it is used to extend the framework. Hence I see more future for myself in lisp:) 21:56:10 Fare: i'm not sure if i was "trying", and i am also not sure if my applause helped any. 21:56:40 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 21:57:13 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:59:58 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:00:21 manuel_: i disagree with your description of that UCW problem.. it's usually quite easy to find out where the error is since the move to the intrepreter .. M-. even works a lot of the time now! :) 22:00:35 err, rather 'v' on a stack frame works 22:00:44 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:01:54 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 22:02:00 -!- sebell [n=sebell@mail.arcurve.com] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.3.1"] 22:03:12 crod [n=cmell@d288be-132.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:03:21 Fare: Weblocks already has graceful degredation in absence of JS 22:04:14 -!- curtosis_ [n=cmcurtis@208.176.107.235.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 22:06:19 rlpowell, yay for weblocks. 22:06:53 drewc, "move to the interpreter"? what moved? 22:07:19 the cps transformer 22:07:28 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 22:07:44 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:08:14 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:08:16 fusss [n=kumi@209.9.227.200] has joined #lisp 22:08:38 before, it was a screamer-style compiler? 22:08:57 evenin 22:09:40 I wish I had time to implement my first-class source-locations idea; it would make debugging such things easier. 22:09:53 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:10:22 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:10:26 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:10:52 tcr: what's that idea? 22:10:52 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:11:14 first-class source-locations :-P 22:11:42 use where? as opposed to? 22:12:21 For Slime's M-. 22:12:49 *fusss* vaguely read about Deuce, Dylan's ZWEI/Emacs clone which had "first class" everything, with respect to text 22:13:08 That's not an editor issue, but an implementation issue 22:13:15 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:31 Tarlok [n=user@0-16-d4-5c-87-f3.sm.esol.dur.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:14:09 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-2-23.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:17 not trivial to capture text location stuff in lisp 22:14:57 Fare: http://common-lisp.net/websvn/filedetails.php?repname=editor-hints&path=%2Ftrunk%2Feditor-hints%2FTODO&rev=0&sc=0 22:15:22 durka [n=durka@130.58.196.238] has joined #lisp 22:15:24 fusss: Source-locations are not really based on text locations 22:15:31 macros are expanded in places they werent defined. which line to capture? the defenition or call location? 22:16:05 sorta like the scope issues 22:16:33 mib_fubatmmb [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-55acf43301973e31] has joined #lisp 22:16:47 tcr: OK. See also the source tracking done in PLT 22:17:05 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:17:49 Fare: It's easier in Scheme than in Lisp, as Lisp source is specified to be read into actual lists etc 22:17:49 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Operation timed out] 22:19:31 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:19:51 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:23:55 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:25:59 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 22:28:27 -!- crod [n=cmell@d288be-132.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:28:31 crod [n=cmell@d28851-112.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:28:57 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 22:31:12 sctb [n=sctb@mail.arcurve.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:33 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-19-17.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 22:33:08 kejsaren [n=kejsaren@111.25.95.91.static.ras.siw.siwnet.net] has joined #lisp 22:33:24 -!- fusss [n=kumi@209.9.227.200] has quit ["Hey! 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