00:00:12 :red :blue :green 00:00:16 mbac: if your list looks like ((carone many properties in list) (cartwo properties )) you will be able to use assoc, member, remove and a lot of other functions to manipulate it. 00:00:43 meingbg: so you're writing a proxy ? 00:01:21 fusss, you mean doing (list :name "Nissan Maxima" :red T) ? 00:01:24 fe[nl]ix: Yes, with information manipulating in one direction only. 00:01:38 *fusss* any sufficiently complicated unix socket programming project can be simplified with a clever use of netcat :-P 00:01:44 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-195-62.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:28 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@171-215.126-70.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:02:47 *meingbg* wrote the proxy initially in C and used stdin/out with netcat, before realizing that the information control would be much nicer to do in lisp... 00:03:13 mbac: (defun make-car (name color) (list :name name :color color)) (defun car-name (car) (when (consp car) (second car)) (defun car-color ...) like i said, use classes or structs. lists are doable but not ideal 00:03:28 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:03:51 ok, sounds very high-level .. if i understand this, i am still working on a level or a couple of levels below this // from the (very) little I have seen that is at least one difference with weblocks, then 00:04:09 weblocks has this "create edit form of widget automatically" functionality. 00:04:18 hmmm 00:04:19 meingbg: perhaps you need TWO netcats :-P cheers! 00:04:26 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:46 b4|hraban, ok 00:04:50 meingbg: I don't think that current usocket is able to do what you want, but you should ask ehu` 00:05:30 fusss: That's what I had! 00:06:23 mbac: compare that to (defstruct vehicle name color). you can do (car-color (make-car :name "Desire" :color :burgundy)) => :burgundy. 00:07:22 interesting! 00:07:33 -!- topo [n=topo@210.pool85-58-26.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 00:07:44 mbac: ie, automatic accessor generation. they call that "scaffolding" in RESTful Web 2.0 rich applications :-P 00:08:08 mbac is getting less anti objects... 00:08:30 <_3b> hmm, guess compiling to avm2 may need and optimization pass :( 00:08:47 _3b: hah! 00:08:53 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [No route to host] 00:09:12 <_3b> checking loop termination at end of a simple loop seems tobe worth about 4x speedup 00:09:45 _3b: i have been reading like crazy about closure and environment representation 00:10:19 <_3b> cool, feel free to suggest nice ways to do things :) 00:10:58 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:11:02 avm2 already gives environemnts for free, both for lexically scoped variables and dynamic ones 00:11:33 *_3b* can allocate a 10000000 cons list in ~10 sec, and sum the CARs in about 2-2.5 sec now 00:12:31 closure representation? hmmm. we can keep the code part of the closure as it is, since avm2 has method-body-info, which has a code slot. but modeling scope (i.e. pointing to the closure of the inner most enclosing scope) might be a little trick 00:12:41 _3b: bloody hell, that's good 00:12:46 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@70.130.147.93] has quit [] 00:13:21 <_3b> avm2 has closures, so those shouldn't be too hard :p 00:13:42 hmmm 00:13:55 i think my sticking point is actually action script, and not the avm. 00:14:04 -!- phao [n=phao@20158145171.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:14:09 you reckon i should learn it properly? 00:14:19 -!- phf [n=phf@c-69-140-35-170.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 00:14:24 <_3b> conses are a bit large though, that list takes up about 300MB or so, vs ~70MB in sbcl 00:14:40 <_3b> learn which? as3 has closures too 00:15:08 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.253.166] has joined #lisp 00:15:10 all the as3 code i have ever written fits nicely in a page and a half 00:15:30 <_3b> heh, the non copy-pasted bits of my as3 code are probably about that :p 00:15:43 I think my current AS3 project is about 25,000 LOC. 00:15:54 heh! 00:15:57 Take that! 00:16:07 <_3b> and about half my total was trying out 5 or 6 different representations for conses 00:16:43 _3b: we're the believers my friend 00:16:44 Of course, it could probably be written in 1000 lines of Lisp. 00:17:28 <_3b> a fully typed singly linked list is about 10x faster than untyped cons list though 00:17:55 <_3b> (iterating over it that is, still takes about 10sec to allocate 10M of them) 00:17:57 http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.25.238 00:18:24 i have been reading all i could find on "Direct Style" compilation 00:19:15 rcy [n=rcy@shop.freegeekvancouver.org] has joined #lisp 00:20:11 i think i should play with AS3 closures first, and see how fit they're to modeling lisp closures. Does it really have an explicit pointer to its parent lexical environment? or are free variables flattened as extra arguments? 00:20:14 <_3b> inlining seems useful for small functions too, saved a few seconds on that benchmark that way 00:20:19 -!- Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:20:55 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:20:58 <_3b> at the avm2 level, you have to create an activation record thing for the closed over vars 00:22:03 <_3b> and the function needs to have a flag set that says it needs one of those 00:22:10 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-061-050.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:22 fusss pasted "avm2 spec in lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71199 00:23:08 _3b: yes, 6.3 00:23:21 but how about free variables? 00:23:36 <_3b> those are what goes in the activation 00:24:27 so if a block is enclosed by two other blocks, and it references variables defines in those nested blocks, all the free variables are flattened to one record? 00:24:46 so it has flat closures 00:25:07 Flash does not have block local variables. 00:25:09 what if we want to have side effects on shared variables? 00:25:44 <_3b> hmm, returning a closure from a local function might be messy 00:25:51 You can share variables between closures. 00:26:18 <_3b> would have to see how as3 compiles that case 00:26:56 _3b: it shouldn't be. closures will have to be reified to first class objects. just a record with two boxed pointers; one points to the code, i.e. the method array of the constant pool, and pointing to its environemnt. it's the second one that's tricky. 00:27:04 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 00:27:38 <_3b> fusss: i mean purely using the avm2 closure stuff, not implementing them by hand 00:27:46 ah 00:27:57 fusss: Wait, are you saying that you want to share something like an int variable between two closures? I'm not sure if you can modify it. 00:28:12 i'm was never one for using builtin avm2 stuff :-P i told you, i want to a large array i can simulate RAM 00:28:28 <_3b> fusss: with the alchemy stuff, looks like you actually have that now 00:29:01 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:29:12 ahaas: that's the whole point of using closure to simulate OOP-type objects in Lisp. You have accessor "methods" with a shared object. if your Lisp closures on AVM2 can't do that you probably are not using a lisp/ 00:29:51 <_3b> i'm trying to run directly on the vm as much as possible though, to avoid impedence mismatch when calling flash libs... maybe add a low level alchemy style version for number crunching if it gets that far though 00:30:20 (let ((lock 0)) (defun get-lock () (incf lock)) (defun put-lock () (decf lock))) is the canonical example 00:30:21 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 00:30:28 Well, you can share a higher level object, like an array. But, if it's something like an int, each closure might have it's own copy. 00:30:40 I'll test... 00:30:55 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-69-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 00:31:19 ahaas: if they're doing that then they're flattening the closure environment and shared mutable objects are out of the window. 00:31:25 <_3b> cool, you can probably test it faster than me :) 00:31:34 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.129.212] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:39 You can definitely share arrays. I do it all the time. 00:32:20 <_3b> i'd expect the shared int to work, just not sure how to compile a closure that closes over things from multiple nested levels of functions 00:32:25 then rewrite your locks as (let ((lock (make-array #xFF :initial-element "Key"))) hahahahaha 00:32:52 brb, cigarette 00:33:58 <_3b> i guess worst case, we could just box things by hand to work around any deficiencies in av,2's sharing stuff 00:34:06 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-039-026.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:35:21 lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 00:35:53 Ifur [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 00:36:35 Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:10 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-206-42-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:55 ryrunfrnf [n=hask@h49n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:38:04 anyone have paul grahams on lisp? 00:38:16 I think it's freely available online. 00:38:20 im looking at the raytracer example and the first-hit method. it is quite ugly 00:38:28 anyone can explain it to me? 00:38:55 if you do (let (surface hit dist)...) do you set surface to a list of 2 atoms? 00:39:09 <_3b> you set all 3 to nil 00:39:30 -!- yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has quit ["  ."] 00:39:40 <_3b> or bind them rather 00:39:55 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:39:56 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483E23E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:41:29 ryrunfrnf: no, you're creating 3 bindings, initializing them all to NIL 00:44:15 _3b: Ok, it does look like the reference to an int is actually shared between closures (in Flash). 00:44:31 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:44:39 ryrunfrnf: i think it's PG's "ANSI Common Lisp" that has the ray tracer, not On Lisp. but the code for that is on his website 00:45:07 I think I was confused because I often build closures with a higher order functions, and any low level vars I pass to that are passed by value. 00:45:46 _3b: avm2 "pointers" are actually just u30 indices into the constant pool. boxing that will certainly be inefficient, in the classic sense of "boxing", but a second level of indirection, through another array might do it. 00:47:15 ryrunfrnf: (let ((surface (list hit dis))) ..) is what you want 00:47:37 <_3b> fusss: yeah, i meant an array or object 00:50:17 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:51:20 *_3b* needs to handle ignoring the values of forms more intelligently 00:52:46 what forms? 00:53:05 <_3b> for example the foo in (progn foo bar) 00:53:20 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 00:53:55 <_3b> for simple cases the peephole pase can get rid of stuff like (:push-null) (:pop), but the NIL branch in WHEN or UNLESS is harder to get rid of 00:54:31 <_3b> (and getting rid of it reduces the sum 10M CARs test from ~2.6sec to ~2.0 sec) 00:55:40 <_3b> hmm, wonder if that branch is consistent enough to remove in the peephole pass... 00:57:58 hmmm 00:59:30 in a real compiler you would have a sequencing form like progn create a new stack frame. each subform there in would create another frame, and upon return, the stack frame would be destroyed. when the progn exits, its stack is in turn destroyed. 00:59:40 no need to "ignore" anything 00:59:57 in multiple-value-bind for example 01:00:21 <_3b> destroying the stack frame is more or less what i mean 01:01:14 common lisp is quite ugly i must say 01:01:27 scheme is a lot more elegant. a ot more functional 01:01:32 <_3b> the foo form would compile to something like (:get-local 1), then the progn adds a (:pop) to get rid of it 01:01:47 ryrunfrnf: Don't troll. 01:01:52 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm231.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:01:54 ryrunfrnf: "that's just your opinion, man" 01:02:14 <_3b> ryrunfrnf: was that a request for those of us who were still helping you to stop? 01:02:22 nibbles [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/nibbless] has joined #lisp 01:02:36 _3b: for stack discipline it might be easier for the enclosing block to do that stack allocation and deallocation 01:03:09 <_3b> fusss: not sure what you mean, i thought that is what i was doing? 01:04:18 _3b: in your example, depending on what "foo" is. if foo is a function and the compile knows it returns a result. your compiler can emit something like (:call "Foo") (:pop) 01:04:27 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 01:04:37 <_3b> right, that is what happens now 01:04:49 are you worried about multiple values then? 01:04:58 <_3b> problems is when foo is (if blah (do something) nil) 01:05:04 if i have a defstruct named world it is no problem passin argument snamed world right? 01:05:11 <_3b> (multiple values is a problem for another day) 01:05:38 <_3b> if i don't care what the IF evaluates to, i can get rid of the entire else branch 01:06:15 <_3b> but then IF needs to know whether the return value matters or not 01:07:26 -!- nibbles [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/nibbless] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 01:07:30 in this case you will have a generic type called "VALUE" or something, which can represent any lisp value 01:07:32 <_3b> though i guess it would still be limited, since it would probably have to special case the situations where it could drop the branch 01:08:09 *_3b* is using * as the generic 'boxed value' type currently 01:08:14 whichever leg of IF we execute, the result is always one size, a record of type VALUE. 01:08:47 <_3b> are you talking about the multiple-value case, or the get rid of unused NIL branch case? 01:09:11 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:09:19 <_3b> (currently everything is always cast to * to avoid type errors) 01:09:50 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-71-125-67-150.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 01:10:12 wouldn't it be nicer to create an AVM2 object heirarchy to represent lisp types? more work, but Right ultimately 01:10:59 <_3b> probably, but as3's * seems like a reasonable counterpart to lisp's T (at least for now) 01:11:13 i think of avm2 * as a C void* 01:11:21 <_3b> or at a lower level, it is more or less a boxed pointer 01:11:23 but you're probably right 01:12:45 with respect to m-v-b; it's just explicit stack allocation. (mvb (a b c) (values 1 2 3) (list a b c)) would compile to something like .. 01:13:37 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:13:51 <_3b> nope, values is ugly, since you don't control the stack across function calls 01:13:56 <_3b> and only get 1 return value 01:14:25 example? 01:14:35 i thought i had mutliple values figured out 01:15:14 -!- Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:15:16 <_3b> or do you mean use a special values object for every function call? 01:15:34 there is a scheme compiler that does that 01:15:57 <_3b> which would require allocating an object, then extracting the primary value on every call 01:16:10 <_3b> allocating on the heap that is 01:16:24 can i put this in terms of algol compilers? 01:16:32 <_3b> no idea :p 01:17:00 algol == pascal | c | oberon, no the real algol :-P 01:17:29 if i were to add MVs to an algol, instead of returning a single result on the stack or in a register 01:17:30 -!- ryrunfrnf [n=hask@h49n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:17:38 -!- mbtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:18:10 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 01:18:25 manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:25 you would dictate that any call to VALUES to puts the result in the caller's activation record 01:18:49 but .. i'm confused 01:18:59 <_3b> so basically return them on the stack? 01:19:40 you have two parts of the stack, your own local stack area, where your automatic variables are allocated, and other stuff like spilled registers are saved 01:19:49 and your caller's stack, where your arguments are 01:20:35 <_3b> right, in flash you can't see the caller's stack though 01:20:35 i think you should be able to dictate a stack discipline such that, say, all words above the argument area are treated as result area of MVs 01:20:59 <_3b> effectively, caller and callee have independent stacks 01:21:05 yeah 01:21:19 gaah 01:21:34 <_3b> caller pushes N args, and has 1 return value on stack after call finishes, calee sees args as botton N elements on stack 01:21:58 <_3b> i guess you could pass a modifiable values arg or something 01:22:29 but functions that return multiple values should be told of where to save the results somehow 01:22:46 we can't just pass around vectors .. or can we :-) 01:23:12 <_3b> main question, is what is cheapest... 01:23:22 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:23:28 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:28 the old heap vs stack question 01:23:48 or registers, ffs 01:23:58 mdb [n=philip@U353a.u.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:24:23 _3b: let me get back to my primitive stages of lisp hacking. you're way ahead of me right now :-P 01:24:25 <_3b> options i can think of: return all values in an object, call a method to collapse to single value in all situations that don't propagate multiple values. cons: allocate object on heap and call method for almost every function call 01:24:46 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:25:35 <_3b> return primary value normally, set flag and store extras in a global... cons: have to reset flag on every normal function return (or call to avoid problems with ffi to flash functions) 01:25:35 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:26:02 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 01:26:32 <_3b> pass an object in which to store extra values... cons: need to pass an extra arg to every function call, except FFI functions, unless you can be sure they don't return multiple values 01:27:32 <_3b> probably lots of others too, like always returning everything in a global, etc 01:27:39 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:27:44 <_3b> for now, i'm just ignoring the whole issue as long as possible :) 01:28:00 MVs don't belong in a global, that's not very client 01:28:33 clean 01:28:51 <_3b> why not? how is it differnt from storing them on the stack, aside from having a name? 01:29:01 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 01:29:04 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:29:21 ummm, any intervening form might be able to see it 01:30:13 lisp_newbie [n=Richard_@c-76-24-50-7.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:15 you don't want to be circumventing the semantics of the language in the future, because you're too lazy to refactor your code to support some fancy new computational model 01:30:28 :-D 01:30:45 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16ADE2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:30:54 <_3b> well, trying to hack MV into a single value calling convention is going to be ugly however it works 01:32:14 <_3b> question is if it can be done without adding too much cost to code that doesn't use it 01:33:07 Felleissen has a paper on efficient MVs in scheme, wait .. 01:33:15 -!- mdb [n=philip@U353a.u.pppool.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 01:33:26 <_3b> resetting a flag on call/return might be the cheapest solution, doesn't add too much to normal code, assuming the flag can be accessed easily 01:33:27 Where can I find API documentation for IOlib? 01:33:33 Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:37 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:33:37 Dybvig/Ashley rather 01:34:03 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 01:34:07 http://citeseer.ist.psu.edu/27481.html 01:34:26 I have a quick question about the arity of the primitive defvar in elisp. I'm trying to construct a working memory/database (linked list) of properties and have a variable name point to this list via defvar. Would I say (defvar pointer (list)) ? 01:35:07 Where list would be replaced with a cons. 01:35:21 <_3b> lisp_newbie: sounds reasonable (except use *pointer*) in CL, #emacs knows more about elisp though 01:35:55 _3b, thank you kindly for your response. Does the asterisk have any significance in evaluation (common lisp)? 01:36:28 lisp_newbie: only in the multiplication function 01:36:35 <_3b> they are just for coder convenience, they signify the variable is special (has dynamic scope) 01:37:06 Ah, makes sense. Thanks again fusss and _3b for the help -- I appreciate it. 01:37:25 meingbg: http://common-lisp.net/project/iolib/manual/html_node/index.html 01:38:19 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.119.77] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:38:21 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:39:29 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 01:40:42 ths_ [n=ths@X71b5.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:41:10 isomer`` [n=isomer@001310E6CB31.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:46:17 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 01:46:28 <_3b> fusss: looks like that requires being able to return more than 1 elementon the stack 01:47:44 yes, sadly. again, we don't have the luxury of an explicit stack. 01:48:09 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:17 i thought they discussed other implementation approaches in the intro 01:48:28 <_3b> i'll just continue ignoring it for now, got plenty of more useful features to worry about :) 01:48:36 ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.83.228] has joined #lisp 01:49:21 -!- isomer [n=isomer@74.210.117.27] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:49:29 <_3b> (only annoying bit is that i can't directly reuse the setf stuff from SICL without VALUES) 01:50:04 <_3b> probably work just as well if i replace it with LIST there though 01:50:15 ahhhh, good ole Quinnec. LiSP, page 103. Let me read it first. 01:50:34 *_3b* really needs to get a copy of that one of these days :/ 01:50:39 bah, it's CPS based :-/ 01:51:02 *fusss* need to learn to continuation-passing style crap 01:51:15 george [n=george@189.107.186.23] has joined #lisp 01:51:42 _3b: you can find it on the net as well 01:51:54 legally ! :-) 01:52:03 <_3b> rvirding: LiSP? 01:52:04 kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-30-249.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 01:52:13 yup 01:53:11 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.64.114] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:53:36 fe[nl]ix: thx 01:54:28 <_3b> rvirding: hmm, hadn't found it anywhere 01:54:55 no can't remember where i got it from, and can't find it 01:55:11 woah! 01:55:14 -!- happycodemonkey [n=carriear@c-98-223-43-42.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:55:40 should be on Quinnec's page, if it's available legally. maybe the publisher? 01:55:40 george_ [n=george@189.107.138.138] has joined #lisp 01:56:19 -!- ths [n=ths@X603a.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:37 from my experience, the book served as nothing but distraction to other fields of compiler research. couldn't go through a page without having to devote a month to some specialized field and returning when that made sense 01:56:46 depth-first reading :-/ 01:59:13 i want from studying denotational semantics, not understanding it, then studying everything semantics, foundational math, lambda calculus, combinators, equational logic, term rewriting, category theory, universal algebra, model theory .. GAAAH! 01:59:19 well it's on piratebay but that is not where i found it 01:59:30 i have now bought it though 02:01:31 this site has a download link http://www.ebookee.com.cn/Lisp-in-Small-Pieces_133734.html and claims to be legal 02:01:41 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 02:01:47 it's in dejavue format 02:01:49 yeah, I'm /sure/ 02:01:53 .cn, right 02:02:24 link goes to http://rs236.rapidshare.com/files/62510907/0521562473.rar 02:02:52 <_3b> yeah, not sure i'd trust legality claims from .cn or .ru to apply to me in .us :) 02:03:22 rvirding: please stop 02:03:30 .info is where i get all my legit legal wares 02:03:49 *_3b* will just wait and buy it at some point 02:04:04 ok ok 02:04:34 <_3b> don't really like reading book-formatted stuff on computers anyway 02:05:12 _3b: google desktop, and you can search your entire library :-) 02:05:27 <_3b> fusss: doesn't fix the 100dpi display though :/ 02:05:36 yeah 02:05:54 <_3b> which don't combine well with print + layout designes for a few times that resolution 02:06:49 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:07:15 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 02:07:20 <_3b> though i'd still dislike .pdfs anyway, since they tend to have much less useful UI than html (or at least the readers do) 02:09:41 *_3b* goes back to playing with the peephole optimizer. 02:09:55 _3b: chookas mate! 02:10:44 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.186.23] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:12:45 <_3b> hmm, actually, i guess that is too complicated :( 02:13:06 <_3b> i'd have to practically write a decompiler to not break nested ifs 02:13:10 i found lisp in small pieces really hard to read 02:13:26 maybe because it was written in french originally ? 02:13:39 but something felt wrong 02:14:23 xristos: and by the time you reached the prerequisite level of "maturity", it felt tautological and repetitive 02:14:46 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 02:15:28 fusss i had to re-read a lot of things before they started making sense 02:15:32 -!- george [n=george@189.107.186.23] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:15:39 compared to paip, which i found expertly written 02:16:35 probably one of the best written programming books i've read 02:16:35 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:16:36 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:16:48 <_3b> oh well, i guess i'll just use the low-level single branch when for now :) 02:16:55 different use of language makes it read strange 02:17:03 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 02:23:39 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:24:18 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178008230.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:27:06 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:27:43 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:28:10 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 02:28:27 shmho [n=user@58.142.35.171] has joined #lisp 02:29:21 -!- cpape [n=user@p5484DABA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:30:34 -!- lisp_newbie [n=Richard_@c-76-24-50-7.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:36:53 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 02:37:58 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:38:15 <_3b> bah, it wasn't the if branches after all, forgot i had moved a LET out of the loop on one of the tests :/ 02:38:22 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 02:40:04 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:42:57 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@c-98-223-43-42.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:17 -!- happycodemonkey [n=carriear@c-98-223-43-42.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:46:23 <_3b> the extra IF branches seem to matter too, but not much more than the measurement noise 02:48:08 -!- george_ [n=george@189.107.138.138] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:48:18 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:48:47 -!- shmho [n=user@58.142.35.171] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:52:23 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:57:52 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:58:50 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host61.190-137-180.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:59:23 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:03:21 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-168-233.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:03:49 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:11:20 -!- anuj [n=anuj@210.212.55.3] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:14:21 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:14:22 qbg [n=qbg@170-215-40-227.dsl1.mond.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 03:15:32 -!- pkhuong_ is now known as pkhuong 03:17:32 lisp_newbie [n=Richard_@c-76-24-50-7.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:17:46 anuj [n=anuj@210.212.55.3] has joined #lisp 03:20:34 Hello again. How would one go about performing multiple defvars in one statement? For example: (if (ENDP list) (List (list) ((defvar *item-one* (car list)) (defvar *item-two* ()))) 03:20:51 It that valid, having two defvar inline like that? 03:21:14 <_3b> (progn (defvar ...) (defvar ...)) 03:21:17 Missed a pharen there, though... SHould have been (List list) 03:21:29 Ah, progn. Thanks _3b. 03:21:43 i don't think defvar does what you think it does. 03:21:51 Oh? 03:21:59 <_3b> yeah, that code is a bit odd 03:22:12 lisp_newbie: defvar is for globals 03:22:33 kpreid: Yes, I realized. I need it later -- otherwise I would have used lexical bindings with let. 03:22:59 you should use defvar to declare variables and setf to assign them 03:23:16 kpreid: This is also known to me. 03:23:34 I am very new to LISP and wanted to try implementing a natural language processing angent that would take a sentence and parse out the parts of speech... 03:24:22 The first thing I was doing is checking if the sentence is null: (if (ENDP list) (List list) (... 03:25:16 you probably want progn 03:25:19 If the list is empty, return the empty list... Otherwise prune the list for the subject and define a variable subject via defvar... And then call a function to prune the predicate and likewise assign the predicate to a var. 03:25:25 (progn (do-this) (do-that)) 03:25:27 <_3b> why (list list) instead of NIL there? or UNLESS instead of IF if you don't care what it returns 03:25:52 There was no reason -- I am uneducated, that is the only justification I can offer. 03:26:02 But I shall now look up those alternatives. :o) 03:26:08 Thank you to both of you. 03:27:02 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 03:27:07 <_3b> is that inside a function? 03:28:02 Yes. 03:28:39 <_3b> redefining (or rather failing to redefine since you use defvar) the variables every time you call the function seems a bit odd 03:29:32 Should I use letf instead? 03:30:02 And avoid state in general. 03:31:04 <_3b> i'd probably just return the parsed data from the function in a list or CLOS object or something 03:31:28 <_3b> defining globals and setting them with SETf would be OK for a simple program though 03:32:05 So just use defvar before the function call to create globals for subject and predicate and then assign them within the function via setf? 03:32:13 <_3b> right 03:32:29 I see what you mean, I'll do that instead -- thanks. 03:33:10 kpreid: I think that's kind of what you were getting at too -- sorry if I didn't catch the hint. 03:33:38 -!- sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has quit [] 03:34:19 Do I still use asterisks in my setf? (if I used defvar *varname*) 03:34:33 <_3b> yeah, *varname* is the name of the variable 03:34:43 That's what I thought, danke. 03:35:01 I'm off for a bit to do some more learning. I don't want to waste anymore of your time :o) Thanks again. 03:36:04 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:37:55 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 03:43:31 sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has joined #lisp 03:43:45 -!- qbg [n=qbg@170-215-40-227.dsl1.mond.mn.frontiernet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:44:13 holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:39 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:09 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 03:49:35 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:50:11 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:55:32 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:32 syamajala [n=syamajal@pool-96-228-252-32.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:06 Can progn only take two arguments? 04:10:50 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:12:44 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:13:05 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 04:13:40 lisp_newbie: progn takes &rest 04:13:57 Excellent, thank you danlei. 04:17:07 sdfsf [n=hask@h49n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 04:17:22 t do you think of paul grahams lisp-style? 04:18:06 im translating his raytracer from ansi cl and it isnt very functional 04:18:07 haskellian, why are you changing nicks every time? 04:19:05 i consider it pretty bad style to use global variables 04:19:05 cuz me connection keeps oging n and off and mirc is retarded 04:19:05 who cares? 04:19:12 george [n=george@189.107.138.138] has joined #lisp 04:19:29 Oh nos, mirc. 04:19:44 sdfsf: because i think you are trolling again 04:21:05 If I wanted a function to take a series of strings as arguments, how would I perform the function call? Would I do something like (fun ("str1" "str2" ... "strn")) ? 04:21:33 (fun "str1" "str2" ... "strn") 04:21:34 ? 04:21:55 fun being the arbitrary name of a stated lambda expression. (defun fun let 04:22:02 Let's say* sorry. 04:23:00 ((lambda (&rest list-of-strings) list-of-strings) "str1" "str2" "str3") ? 04:23:02 I have a function: (defun parse-sentence (sentence) (...)) and I'm note sure how to call the function with a list of arguments of type string... If that makes any sense 04:23:25 -!- sdfsf [n=hask@h49n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 04:23:47 Ah, I think I see what you're doing (sorry, I'm a bit new to the language). 04:24:00 or ((lambda (sentence) sentence) (list "str1" "str2" "str3")) 04:24:25 Ah, that makes a lot more sense -- perfect! Thanks so much for the suggetion stassats. 04:24:37 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A25946.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 04:27:00 Man, Lisp is fun. 04:27:51 note, that function list can be defined as (defun list (&rest args) args) so two above functions are similar 04:30:18 The second args doesn't have to be in parens? 04:30:27 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.168.94] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:30:48 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:31:40 lisp_newbie: what do you mean? 04:32:14 Is: (defun list (&rest args) (args)) == (defun list (&rest args) args) ? 04:32:22 No. 04:32:45 Oh... In what way do they differ: Riastradh? 04:33:10 if args is not a macro, which expands to args, then no 04:33:11 Try them, with a name other than LIST so that you don't trip over package locks. 04:33:33 Alright, will do. 04:33:57 lisp_newbie: are you reading some lisp book? 04:34:01 -!- sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has quit [] 04:34:51 stassats: I was reading the gigamonkies book (CL) for a little bit. 04:35:17 it's a good book, read it 04:35:52 So I've heard. I shall do just that. 04:36:17 r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:38:04 Hmm. (mylist 1 2 3) would not evaluate where mylist was defined as (defun mylist (&rest args) (args)) -- as expected based on your comments. 04:38:20 Though due to the lack of evalutation I'm not quite sure what it expects differently. 04:38:58 Would (args) just being saying a list of 1 component which is a list? 04:39:23 Since (&rest args) specifies that args must be a list (0 or more arguments)? 04:39:55 it has nothing to do with (&rest args), (args) is a function call 04:40:04 The expression (ARGS) means an application of the operator named ARGS to zero arguments. Most likely, you have defined no operators, such as macros or functions, named ARGS. 04:40:35 Ah, of course >. You guys are excellent at explaining things, by the way. I'll try not to take advantage of your generosity but I do very much appreciate your help. 04:42:07 So thanks again :o) 04:43:51 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:44:30 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:48:30 sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has joined #lisp 04:48:44 -!- sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has quit [Client Quit] 04:48:44 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@pool-96-228-252-32.tampfl.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 04:49:18 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:25 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 04:59:12 sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has joined #lisp 05:00:42 -!- sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has quit [Client Quit] 05:05:47 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:53 eevar_ [n=snuffpup@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 05:09:07 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:12:38 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:14:07 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 05:17:39 ebzzry__ [n=rmm@124.217.93.172] has joined #lisp 05:19:12 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:19:55 -!- ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.83.228] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:23:46 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:25:15 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:27:16 -!- eevar [n=snuffpup@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:35:22 Good morning. 05:35:51 Good morning. 05:38:58 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 05:39:17 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:10 noid [n=Beket@athedsl-17160.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 05:43:41 kidd [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:37 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 05:47:04 -!- Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:49:56 eevar__ [n=snuffpup@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 05:53:29 Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 06:01:05 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [] 06:02:20 -!- lisp_newbie [n=Richard_@c-76-24-50-7.hsd1.nh.comcast.net] has left #lisp 06:03:05 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:27 -!- eevar_ [n=snuffpup@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:11:03 -!- manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:22:44 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:51 Wow! The new CLiki layout looks nice. 06:29:33 -!- ebzzry__ is now known as ebzzry 06:30:07 ebzzry_ [n=ebzzry@124.217.93.172] has joined #lisp 06:30:25 -!- ebzzry_ [n=ebzzry@124.217.93.172] has left #lisp 06:32:38 Still no news from Xach? 06:33:26 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 06:35:35 My bad. I thought it was global. 06:38:25 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:32 beach: i think he's just fine. 06:45:31 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 06:46:06 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit ["multiple-boxen upgrade"] 06:46:50 H4ns: Good to know! 06:47:26 where is the new cliki layout? 06:48:28 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 06:52:21 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 06:57:21 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 06:58:27 g'day 06:59:15 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:59:34 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:00:05 lnostdal: Sorry, I thought it was a new layout. Only to find out it was project independent. 07:00:29 ohok :) 07:09:06 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["roquefort is a sheep milk cheese..."] 07:11:31 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-217-253.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:12:15 doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 07:12:32 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-32.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:12:42 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus_ 07:16:10 Any other portable common lisp implementations (compiler or interpreter) besides ECL, GCL, and CLISP? Reason I ask is because I can't get any of them to compile with gcc on an arm processor. 07:16:51 Quadrescence: to my knowledge, there is no common lisp that runs on arm 07:17:15 Quadrescence: you may want to look at isllisp, it is more portable. 07:17:27 huh. 07:17:32 I run clisp just fine on ARM. 07:17:47 Quadrescence: i stand corrected 07:17:56 schme: help that guy and educate me! :) 07:17:59 Quadrescence: What is your problem with building it? 07:18:47 schme: I'm attempting another build now without libsigsegv (unfortunately). We'll see. 07:18:54 Oh yes. 07:19:24 Quadrescence: The libsigsegv thing is a pain in the behind. I don't believe I got that working, on any platform really. 07:20:04 Quadrescence: It should work just fine without it. My only issue was crosscompiling was a bit tricky, qemu did not do so much perfect emulation, so some parts had to be done on the actual ARM thing. 07:20:09 schme: I'm actually trying to get this to compile on my iphone, which makes things harder, really. 07:20:22 Quadrescence: It should build just fine without libsigsegv. 07:20:25 *schme* googles iphone. 07:21:40 shit what a crazy phone. :) How do you build things on it? 07:22:44 schme: Well, you "jailbreak" it to get access to the root partition, which I did. And some other people have ported GCC to it, and other things. 07:23:05 I ssh into it and do stuff that way. 07:23:12 No way I could do stuff directly on the phone. 07:23:21 Ok. 07:23:27 See what I did is basically this. 07:23:52 I set up scratchbox on my x86-machine here. 'cause building on the actual ARM device was not so hot, slow etc. 07:24:40 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 07:24:40 and that works for the C part of the build, but it then tries to use qemu for loading up clisp to compile all the lisp bits. 07:25:00 Which fails horribly, so you should set it up for remote execution so it runs that bit on the device. 07:25:21 and if you can ssh in to it, that should be no problem. I seem to remember you only really need to get NFS working too. 07:25:26 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:28:35 Maybe using scratchbox would be better. 07:30:19 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 07:30:43 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:31:47 Quadrescence: Well maybe. I'm just saying that is what I did. But if the building of the C stuff isn't taking forever, and crashing 'cause you run out of RAM... Not much gain from it :) 07:32:18 Quadrescence: Anyway it should build just fine without the sigsegv :) 07:32:41 I think the phone just froze. %_% 07:32:59 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:33:33 Ouch. 07:34:54 What OS are you running on it anyway? 07:35:06 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-223-2.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:35:13 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-217-253.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:35:17 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus_ 07:35:25 iPhoneOS, which is supposedly a derivative of OS X, which is a derivative of BSD 07:36:09 I see.. 07:36:32 No idea if clisp runs on that. 07:36:40 I imagined you were running linux. 07:36:45 I wish I was. 07:37:18 Can't ya? 07:37:37 Quadrescence: as long as it supports NFS and you can get sbrsh on it, then scratchbox should be no problem. 07:38:07 schme: I don't know if there is a working linux on it yet. Supposedly it's being developed. 07:38:15 hmm.. ok. 07:39:29 Quadrescence: clisp is very portable though, so I'd assume it would just build no problem :) 07:40:03 schme: It is. I think if I had linux and whatnot on it, it'd be easier. 07:40:49 jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 07:41:12 Where is it breaking? 07:41:43 http://rafb.net/p/pgJG2018.html 07:42:02 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:42:11 hello all. Anyone know of a project manager for SBCL+Slime? Since it seems to be pretty standard now how to do the package.lisp and project.asd it seems like this could be managed via emacs. Like if I want to export a function I could just go to the function and do M-+ or something 07:42:16 That is where the it "froze", which makes me think it's a RAM problem 07:42:58 jbjohns: M-x slime-export-symbol-at-point 07:43:10 Quadrescence: Ya that does not look so bad really. That was, btw, one of my main issues. I ran out of RAM while building :) 07:43:28 Quadrescence: That is why I crosscompiled it. 07:43:33 stassats: Cool, I'll look into that 07:43:48 which must have a key, wait 07:44:02 schme: Yeah. I think I'll try getting scratchbox and everything working, and try that. 07:44:21 (probably not now, I actually woke up because I had a stroke of inspiration) 07:44:53 jbjohns: C-c x 07:45:48 and it seems to be broken in my slime 07:46:54 Quadrescence: Best of luck. 07:46:57 -!- anuj [n=anuj@210.212.55.3] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:47:01 Thanks. :) 07:50:59 C-c x? 07:51:45 Hrm, doesn't seem to work in my slime 07:52:19 cond: ecase failed: excursion, (nil window frame) 07:52:21 (defun name args &body body) 07:52:29 jbjohns: same here 07:53:04 Also, is there anything for system def? Ideally, when I make a new file I would like it to be added to my system def, and have a way to add dependancies to it 07:54:07 there is some interaction with asdf in redshank, don't know whether it does what you want 07:54:14 minion: redshank? 07:54:15 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``redshank''. 07:54:43 http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/emacs/redshank/ 08:01:33 ah cool. Looks like it has some refactoring stuff as well 08:01:46 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:29 -!- tns [n=mehdi@put92-6-88-165-36-162.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 08:05:58 tns [n=user@put92-6-88-165-36-162.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:07:17 bah, I need a cheat sheet for emacs lisp. Don't remember the sequence to instrament a function 08:07:30 er, set it to break into the lisp debugger on next call 08:07:55 milanj [n=milan@93.86.187.111] has joined #lisp 08:08:12 ah, found it 08:09:12 *stassats* found what causes slime-export-symbol-at-point to fail 08:13:40 so did I 08:14:00 bug in either slime-goto-package-source-definition or slime-pop-to-location 08:15:17 yes, but when i change that, it still doesn't work 08:15:17 my guess is the second? Seems like the 3 defined cases show the buffer, but in this case you probably don't want to show it? 08:15:38 i mailed that to slime-devel@ 08:16:56 hm, i tried with 'frame and 'window, but forgot about nil, it seems to work now 08:17:02 ok cool. Now I just need to find out when a restart happens my slime repl doesn't respond anymore 08:31:22 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:33:25 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:35:46 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-11-231.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 08:36:37 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:37:24 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 08:44:12 lamfbx [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:27 morning 08:44:32 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:53:01 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@adsl-75-46-79-168.dsl.ipltin.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["A way a lone a last a loved a long the..."] 08:53:32 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 08:53:43 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:53:45 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 08:54:13 phao [n=phao@20158137141.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 08:54:43 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 08:55:15 -!- tns [n=user@put92-6-88-165-36-162.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 08:55:47 Morning. 08:55:56 mornin' beach 08:55:58 oh wait 08:56:03 s/beach/tic/ 08:56:03 tns [n=mehdi@put92-6-88-165-36-162.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:58:06 hi sykopomp. 08:58:11 *tic* is flattered 08:58:28 tic: it's the 3am ritual for me, at this point. 08:58:47 a bit late, I guess. 08:59:19 sykopomp, to say hi to either of me or beach? :) 08:59:45 yeah, hehe. 09:00:11 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212085084.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:00:22 besiria [n=user@ppp083212085084.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 09:01:42 sykopomp, so how's the mud coming along? 09:01:53 tic: I'm flattered that you ask. 09:02:26 sykopomp, you think too much of me, heh. you had a problem with the number of objects, as I remember it, right? 09:02:42 ah, not anymore. Bigger troubles heading my way. 09:03:04 Such as? 09:03:06 I'm hoping to write a prototype-like object system with the MOP for it, and then try and get -that- working with elephant 09:04:21 and I want to try and package some of the stuff I wrote and put it up on cliki, in case it's useful for someone. It's a lot of fairly modular stuff, and a couple of nice utilities. 09:05:16 don't forget the documentation. even if you're 90% with the package, you still have 90% left with the polishing. 09:05:33 sykopomp, how come a prototype-based object system? (javascript-style, I presume?) 09:06:02 I don't know the JS version of it too well, but there's a few specific things that I think would be really useful 09:06:06 sykopomp: dto has written one, if you want to peek at one 09:06:22 michaelw: oh? Is there a link so i could check it out? 09:06:44 There's only a couple of things I'm really looking for, but i consider them fairly important. 09:07:23 Value-inheritance (not just slots), so I can set a value that will be common to all children in a parent, and dynamic editing of object slots. 09:07:54 hopefully mixing those nice things with CLOS' multiple inheritance and multimethods. 09:08:59 sykopomp, I think The AMOP talks about just such a thing. Should be quite easy to do, anyway. 09:09:34 tic: I ordered AMOP last week, in order to see what I can do. Searching around, I managed to find something from AMOP called programmatic classes. 09:09:40 sykopomp: http://github.com/dto/clon/tree/master 09:09:53 if you redefine a class, will all objects change automatically? 09:10:21 yes 09:10:25 tic: the idea is to not have classes, but assuming each object is simply a unique class... 09:10:39 sykopomp, yeah. should be easy w/ anonymous classes. 09:10:40 michaelw: thank you! I'll take a peek. At the very least, I might be able to fork and get what I want from it :) 09:10:57 *tic* feels intrigued to invent prototypes just for fun. 09:10:57 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 09:11:09 or should I say, re-invent. good mop practice. 09:11:12 tic: does lisp have something like anonymous classes, or do you just use (gensym) on the classname? 09:13:00 sykopomp, it does have anonymous classes. I can't find it in the book now, though. 09:13:14 sykopomp, basically, you create an instance of standard-object. 09:13:40 interesting 09:13:53 I'm really looking forward to reading AMOP. It seems to be one of those life-changing experiences. :) 09:15:47 okay, maybe you do want to gensym the name. not sure here. shouldn't matter, the main point is that you can programatically create new classes. I suggest basing it on the previous object, simply. 09:15:51 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:19:15 nostoi [n=nostoi@106.Red-83-34-57.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:20 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212085084.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:27:57 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 09:29:53 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 09:36:00 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:36:35 ejs [n=eugen@4-182-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:35 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:38:46 hello 09:40:06 hi 09:42:20 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177122158.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:42:49 phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 09:46:08 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 09:47:09 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@239.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:50:28 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 09:50:32 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:54:35 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:54:49 -!- noid [n=Beket@athedsl-17160.home.otenet.gr] has quit [] 09:55:31 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C08B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:57:32 sykopomp: If you are doing prototyping then the normal idea of "inheritance" doesn't work, right? 09:57:59 you'd still have an ISA relationship. 09:58:09 -!- doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:58:11 not in pure prototype. 09:58:27 Hm. 09:58:31 I don't know how JS does it, but Self had "parent slots", which you could have any number of. If the method wasn't found in the reciever the parent slots were checked. And parent slots could be changed at runtime 09:58:48 it's almost like inverse inheritance 09:59:00 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:00:01 jbjohns, aren't parent slots checked in the same sense in plain inheritance? if you change a parent's slots at runtime, won't that effectively change all child classes? 10:00:14 no, there are no child classes 10:00:17 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 10:00:27 there are no classes period, just objects 10:00:38 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@239.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:00:38 often used objects are registered in what's called "the lobby" 10:01:05 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 10:01:14 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 10:01:15 so if you want a copy of one you "clone" it. But any changes made in the original have nothing to do with the copies. If you want method sharing then you make a blank object and point a parent slot at the object you want to "inherit" from 10:01:20 in a sense though, an object is a class in that it's used for creating new objects? 10:01:27 alright. 10:01:46 it's closer to composition then inheritance 10:01:53 *nod* 10:02:45 it's an interesting way to think. From what I've seen, it seems to lead to an even more interactive programming style then even Smalltalk or Lisp 10:03:44 In that, even though in Smalltalk and Lisp compilation is (or in Lisp's case, can be via slime, etc.) on a method/function basis, so there is no "write, compile, run" cycle to break concentration, there still is this switching back and forth between "add to class, test in object" 10:03:57 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0C72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:48 jbjohns, have you done any experimenting with that in Lisp, then? 10:05:05 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@106.Red-83-34-57.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:05:14 no not yet. I suspect it would be quite easy to do such a thing given what I've read in AMOP 10:05:31 I think so. 10:05:32 I mean, being able to switch class, parent class and so on 10:05:54 slot and method lookup based on class could be based on a list in the class that stores those parent classe. 10:05:57 classes. 10:06:13 yep 10:06:34 (At least that's how far I've gotten into AMOP) 10:08:59 Isn't that what dto is doing with CLON anyway? cloning objects, prototypes all around, no classes? 10:09:20 Can you change the method lookup schemantics? (haven't gotten that far). Instead of (defmethod display ((object TextBoxClass)) ...) it would need to behave more like (defmethod display (object (eq TexBoxObject)) ...) 10:09:38 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CCEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:09:51 You mean specialize method dispatch on individual objects ? 10:10:30 Someone has a paper on that, no? 10:10:39 jbjohns, you mean text-box-object, right? ;) 10:10:47 sorry. *blush* 10:11:13 Why would you need MOP to specialize on instances though? 10:11:18 yea. In the prototype system the methods are part of the object itself (kind of like how meta-classes work in Smalltalk), so when you clone an object you get your own copy of the methods. Changing the method in the original has no effect on objects cloned from it 10:12:06 jbjohns: Right. So you can just specialise on specific instances of classes. 10:12:20 or store callbacks in slots in the objects I suppose. 10:12:20 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D664.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:13:00 CLOS is not really made for prototyped based OO, so it might not be your best option :) 10:13:16 It seems hard to get away from the classes, I mean :) 10:14:35 schme: Yes, you can specialize on the instance, but it kind of breaks the abstraction if defining methods is always done with: (defmethod something ((object (eql ..... 10:14:42 hmm in the case of prototype-based languages (at least JS) an object has a "prototype" object to which methods (which are just properties) are stored, and child object inherit that prototype 10:14:52 Also, anytime I clone an object I would want that done for me, not to have to do it myself 10:15:05 so that changing the method of the parent prototype affects future children 10:15:25 s/inherit/inherit and share/ 10:15:27 jbjohns: I would like to at least have the option of cascading methods and values down the object chain. 10:15:52 What do you mean? Set a value in one object and all get it? 10:15:58 exactly 10:15:58 so the methods are not copied per say in each object, the prototype object is just shared 10:16:05 does class slots not work for you? 10:16:37 no, because they should be overridden simply by a single child -object- setting a value to it 10:16:53 and the value would be changed from the default in that single specific instance 10:17:01 -!- danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C08B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:17:08 all other siblings that have not overridden the default value should copy whatever the parent sets. 10:17:22 ah, so you want the behavior of class side slots, until someone changes it 10:17:33 Have you looked at Cells? 10:17:36 danlei [n=user@pD9E2C08B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:38 no, I have not. 10:18:07 That's not all, though. I want to be able to dynamically add and remove slots from individual objects (not remove slots that parents have defined, though) 10:18:17 I don't know how it relates to what you want, but it makes slots behave sort of like cells in a spreadsheet. You can make one slot depend on some other slot, slots be computed, etc. 10:18:34 so the 'prototype' part of it is really that I want to add properties individually to all instances, and base objects on other objects 10:18:37 ok, that requirement sounds like prototype 10:18:51 -!- ejs [n=eugen@4-182-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:18:53 yes, but it's a different kind from what you were describing. 10:19:09 the objective is to be able to manage a lot of objects, while still being able to tweak individuals to taste 10:19:16 phadthai: Then I don't understand how that's different from normal class based OO? 10:19:34 and, preferably, to have an easy way to give access to this client-side, as opposed to having users manipulate class definitions. 10:19:47 every object can become the base/prototype of future objects 10:19:57 well, yes 10:20:11 when classes are more static (or less dynamic) 10:20:11 phadthai: Ah, so objects participate in inheritance 10:20:17 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 10:20:17 yes 10:20:27 -!- H4ns is now known as h4ns 10:21:04 I think basing a prototype system on CLOS would be pretty nice 10:21:09 wason [n=huangcha@i59F7800A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:21:12 I'm not sure what to call that. :) It's not what Self did. I don't think they invented prototyped OO, but I think they were the first implementation of it 10:21:17 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:21:28 not only do you get a familiar interface for it, but stuff like multiple inheritance and multimethods in a prototype system would be fascinating, imo 10:21:32 and incredibly useful 10:21:43 -!- h4ns is now known as H4ns 10:22:02 sykopomp: Well, the fear I would have is that you have to simulate this by generating classes at runtime. You would end up with a leaky abstraction mess like Morphic is in Squeak Smalltalk 10:22:04 jbjohns: honestly, I'm kind of going on what I've seen in a sort-of LPC-like system, and then adding and taking out the things I like/hate 10:22:13 although I don't know LPC very well at all 10:22:27 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:22:33 Well Ruby has both. It's based on Smalltalk but you can add methods/slots to an object instance 10:22:44 -!- wason [n=huangcha@i59F7800A.versanet.de] has left #lisp 10:23:13 jbjohns: I mean, I don't think it would be too hard to write some dynamic class that can have slots added/removed, and using that as a backend to a prototype system by just generating a bunch of 'anonymous' classes. 10:23:35 since in a prototype based language like JS properties are just dynamic hash tables, optimization is probably harder also 10:23:50 __prototype__ is also just another dynamic property of the object 10:24:25 err rather, properties are just entries in an object/hash table 10:24:42 yeah. I'm somewhat afraid that I may have to just reimplement it based on plists or hash tables, or even arrays, for the sake of efficiency. 10:24:48 sykopomp: By "anonymous" you mean that a (defclass (gensym) ....) type thing is happening behind the scenes right? This is what they do with Morphic in Squeak, since Morphic came from prototyped Self, and they tried to bolt it onto class-based Squeak 10:24:52 then again, screw premature optimization. Easy way first ;p 10:25:35 Of course it wouldn't be as bad in Lisp since you work in the files, with Slime etc. In Smalltalk it's awful because you work inside the image so all these ugly "anonymous" classes start showing up in your class list 10:25:43 jbjohns: basically, yes. It sounds ugly, but I think some MOP juju and some macros and custom conditions might plug leaks... 10:26:46 jbjohns: I mean, you can have a :class value with an object-id, and use that whenever you're displaying classes. I can foresee working within the image regardless. 10:26:56 I would also change any functions that list all classes to skip these anonymous ones, so it preserves the abstraction better. Those classes showing up in the browser in Squeak is enough for me to not like the implementation. :) 10:26:56 heck. I might never have to teach the classes themselves. 10:27:23 I've never really used any of those functions. I don't foresee myself needing them... 10:28:05 right, but other things do. What if in Slime I check for all senders of a method and I see a bunch of text-box-0x4452345 type stuff. Not nice. :) 10:28:26 oh, then I hope you have fun ;p 10:28:40 might be a bit of a long list heehee >_> 10:28:45 so for instance a property lookup on an object is as follows: check in object hash table for local, if unfound check in object's prototype object's, going up prototypes until the ultimate parent 10:28:53 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 10:29:01 I don't really know how such a dynamic system could be optimized 10:29:25 I'm hoping to get more ideas once I read through AMOP 10:29:31 it could be with per-case code analysis on what is and isn't modified surely (with tracing or such?) 10:29:31 phadthai: the object's prototype object? 10:30:34 In Self, even though the methods actually belonged to the object, not a "class", the common case is that you do the copy and don't touch the methods, which loans itself well to a "copy-on-write" style of storage and therefor optimization 10:30:57 i.e. defining an object, on which has methods, and using that object as prototype to children (this saves all the heavy method property copying when instanciating), but every object can override the shared prototype properties 10:31:09 and also become prototype of any future objects 10:32:20 this design is also part of why closures are also generally low-performance in JS I think 10:32:49 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:33:09 oh goodness. There's other awfulness that could come from basing it on classes. 10:33:12 So how about CLON ? 10:33:18 phadthai: Are you sure there is some "prototype" object that is being inherited from instead of the methods simply being copied to any object that clones the original? How do you instantiate an object? With "new" or "clone"? 10:33:22 I'm looking at CLON, too, actually. 10:33:43 I need to look into getting some caffeine. 10:34:13 in JS, with new... however I didn't use any other language which was prototype-OO based than JS so my view is strictly ECMAScript's 10:34:50 some new ECMAScript edition introduces more easily compilable traditional classes as well 10:36:00 maybe it's better, for the sake of excusing myself from abstraction, to not call it a prototype system :P 10:36:17 but I can think of some terrifying consequences. 10:36:31 well, (hate to say this but) you might look into Ruby 10:36:58 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A19ED.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:37:08 It might be the system closest to what you're talking about. That is, you define classes, methods and slots as normal, but methods and slots can be overriden on a specific instance if desired 10:37:11 like, copying an instance of this 'singleton' class, and then trying to figure out what the heck happened when you cloned that object, instead of the 'true' one... 10:37:14 yeck 10:37:39 I've seen Ruby's system. I have no interest in writing this with Ruby (which still doesn't provide the value inheritance I'm looking for) 10:37:44 or does it? 10:38:13 I don't mean write it in Ruby. Good grief man! :) I mean for inspiration, i.e. what to copy. :) 10:38:37 hahaha ;p 10:40:01 Seems a mess to base it on CLOS though. 10:40:15 but CLOS is so nice :( 10:40:20 benny [n=benny@i577A19ED.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 10:40:27 Yeees.. 10:40:29 It is :) 10:40:34 and that brings the potential of writing in compatibility with elephant, which I could really use. 10:41:02 and you sort of get some things for free, like further extension/manipulation through the MOP, multiple inheritance, and multimethods 10:41:25 Very true :) 10:41:39 You're in for a fun adventure doing it though :) 10:42:08 I can see myself slowly sinking into madness once I start, though. 10:42:26 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.117.21] has joined #lisp 10:42:41 well, let's see. You like normal CLOS, you just want to be able to override an *instance* of some class and then have further *instances* derived from that instance, instead of a class. So almost like promoting an instance to a class? 10:42:42 Also I seem to remember elephant only working for standard classes, so if you intend to use new metaclasses for this (which I assume one would), then it seems elephant is not your friend anymore. 10:42:46 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:54 hmm if you actually used hash tables and built a custom minilanguage around them with macros, could elephant still save the state (it can save those hash tables?) 10:43:55 jbjohns: I mean, I'm afraid I'm slowly crawling back into implementation land, when the most important part here is what I need. 10:45:03 elephant (and a few other similar systems) are still on my to-try list 10:45:14 I need an object system that supports adding and removing of slots. Slots should be inherited by all children, as well as the values. Changes to the parent's slots and values should reflect on all children immediately, unless the children define the same slot themselves. 10:45:16 phadthai: That could be done, I'm sure. You just don't get the ease and beauty of using it like one does for classes :) 10:45:45 the system would then *preferably* support at least multiple inheritance, but the above is the core stuff that I really want/need 10:46:10 sykopomp: adding and removing slots you can do with MOP, no problem. As for inheriting you would need to keep track of children / parents. and maybe some :before :after bollocks on the adding of slots :) 10:46:17 I'm just trying to understand what your requirements are that need this functionality. For example if you want a specific object to change its behavior based on something it encounters, that can be done with composition (which is kind of what Self does anyway) 10:46:19 sykopomp: and changing of course. 10:46:37 schme: yup. 10:46:39 like a %children slot or what not. 10:46:52 delicious maintenance 10:46:53 ;_; 10:47:03 I -love- maintaining circular references. 10:47:15 sykopomp: That can all be done with the MOP and CLOS. But ya, keeping track of the childrens will be a bunch o' fun ;) 10:47:23 oh laundry run. 10:47:42 yay. Heck. Lisp should convert conses to super-conses (doubly-linked data structure) 10:47:45 oodles of fun. 10:48:22 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-216-10.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 10:49:05 in JS objects keep track of their parent via the __prototype__ property rather than of their children and there's only single-inheritence, but I guess that there could be an array __prototype__ instead of single object reference 10:49:26 but then, what happens if multiple prototypes have common properties? 10:49:42 phadthai: easy. First object in the list overrides. 10:49:53 (which can also happen with CLOS multiple-inheritence but MOP allows to specify wanted behavior then) 10:49:56 and there could be mechanisms for manipulating inheritance, as well (like there is in CLOS) 10:50:12 as long as the policy fits your needs 10:50:19 but I think the 'first-object-goes-first' behavior is really straightforward for most cases. 10:50:44 ok 10:52:08 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-223-2.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:52:18 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus_ 10:54:54 hmm I'm now just thinking that a single "pobject" class would also allow to define a clean interface for internal work actually using hash tables (if that's what you decide to eventually resort to) instead of using a custom minilanguage 10:54:56 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169F2C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:55:26 I've considered that too, yes. 10:55:32 i.e. in JS getter/setter method/properties can also be set on an object so this could also be part of the definition for such a hypothetical POBJECT 10:56:39 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 10:57:16 bbl, good luck with your interesting project :) 10:57:26 I have to get a few hours of sleep 10:57:33 sleep would be nice 10:57:45 if it works out, I really want to at least release it so it's useful for others :P 10:58:22 I might find it useful for non-performance critical cases where flexibility matters most 10:58:52 it's really about flexibility 10:59:16 sykopomp: Conses are used very often in Lisp, adding an additional pointer to them would result in quite some memory footprint 10:59:19 it's sacrificing the consistency and speed of a class-based system for the flexibility (and perceived ease-of-use) of prototypes. 10:59:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 11:00:08 I expect my objects to be huge, too. They're already about 14kb (for a very barebones, simple one) 11:00:25 and that's just the class-based version 11:00:26 *shudder* 11:00:59 ejs [n=eugen@78.24.72.162] has joined #lisp 11:05:22 oh hmm just before I leave, another idea which also fits with the dynamic nature of such a system... 11:05:43 mozilla spidermonkey supports lazy lookup of properties for an object with a custom lookup function 11:06:18 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:06:19 which for instance can be used to dynamically return and "set" properties on request 11:08:58 so for instance if an object's properties is supposed to map to a database table, custom lookup/getter/setter removes the need for the object to hold all properties in memory 11:09:31 bbl 11:11:21 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DD5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:14:18 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 11:15:56 -!- lamfbx [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 11:16:43 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:13 nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:34 mulligan [n=user@e178011025.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:22:26 -!- ejs [n=eugen@78.24.72.162] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:23:57 mulligan` [n=user@e178011025.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:26:05 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 11:28:10 doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 11:32:32 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:45 -!- holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 11:36:18 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:37:28 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 11:42:14 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:42:54 -!- phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:43:38 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:46:04 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:50:41 xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:00:08 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 12:01:21 mega1 [n=mega@53d838a5.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:01:40 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has left #lisp 12:06:17 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:07:37 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:11:33 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a61-250.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:12:44 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:15:31 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:18:46 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:22:27 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:24:24 phytovor [i=mitja@cpe-92-37-9-228.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:13 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 12:33:06 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:34:56 binghe [n=chatzill@60.12.227.4] has joined #lisp 12:35:44 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 12:36:38 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:39:11 -!- doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:42:53 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:44:17 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:51:35 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:54:09 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:55:17 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 12:58:34 matley [n=matley@83.225.195.255] has joined #lisp 12:59:32 -!- xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.11/0000000000]"] 12:59:56 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp459.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 13:06:38 any recommendations for libs helpful in parsing medium-complexity text formats like config files? 13:06:42 other than regex or lalr 13:10:28 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm231.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 13:18:16 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.117.21] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:24:45 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:28:58 http://www.cliki.net/parser 13:30:13 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:31:18 asdasd [n=asd@189.106.210.199] has joined #lisp 13:31:52 anybody here knows mogunus ??? 13:32:01 I need help with CYK algorithm ! in Python! 13:32:38 Can anyone help me? 13:32:45 http://paste.lisp.org/display/48290 13:32:46 no, it's channel about lisp 13:32:50 i know ! 13:32:58 but take a look on this paste code that i found at google 13:33:05 its in python right? 13:33:40 nope 13:33:44 nope? 13:33:50 yep 13:33:58 compare with this code 13:33:58 http://www.cs.umass.edu/~mccallum/courses/inlp2007/code/cfg.py 13:33:59 asdasd: right, what it has to do with lisp? 13:34:16 i need to implement this work ! http://www.cs.umass.edu/~mccallum/courses/inlp2007/code/cfg.py 13:34:23 but it's done at http://paste.lisp.org/display/48290 13:34:26 it's the same code ! 13:34:41 check pls 13:34:42 great, but this channel is about lisp 13:34:49 lets talk pvt 13:34:56 good luck stassats` 13:36:47 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:36:54 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0C72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:36:55 anyone happen to know of a FFT library for lisp? ive tried googling but can only find 2 decade old results 13:38:07 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0C72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 13:38:11 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0C72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:38:30 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C72D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:38:35 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 13:39:11 dkcl [n=dkcl@250.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:40:21 msingh: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-gsl/ 13:40:28 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:41:10 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 13:41:12 hey guys 13:41:30 im a serious lisp noob, can someone give me help getting slime working in emacs so i can start learning lisp? 13:41:36 (im an emacs noob too) 13:41:52 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 13:42:15 banisterfiend: what OS? 13:42:35 msingh: linux 13:42:43 distro? 13:42:47 and i already apt-getted the package 13:42:50 debian-based 13:43:10 what is the best way to check whether sth is bound to a string? 13:43:12 ok, you just need to add a coupla lines to your .emacs -- the slime webpage should sort you out 13:43:37 kami-: stringp? 13:44:13 danlei: *blush*. I was fiddling with type-of. thank you. 13:45:16 kami-: np, (typep foo 'string) would work, too 13:45:20 kami-: the general thing is (typep thing 'string) <- works for any type 13:45:44 thanks 13:46:29 you could also do (subtypep (type-of thing) 'string), but that would be going from "general" to "silly" 13:46:49 :) 13:49:33 banisterfiend: http://functionalrants.wordpress.com/ 13:50:24 banisterfiend: I wrote what you need to set everything up under Debian. 13:50:52 that's awesome 13:50:55 thanks alot man 13:50:57 :) 13:51:01 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A19ED.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:51:03 No worries. 13:51:43 dkcl: but that page seems to be about StumpVM ? 13:51:55 nm i found the link 13:51:59 'walkthrough' :) 13:52:10 -!- mega1 [n=mega@53d838a5.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:52:38 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a61-250.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:52:45 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8ac8-130.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:53:20 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:54 wow thanks dkcl 13:58:05 that was so straight forward that im actually up and running right now :D 13:58:12 i even wrote my "hello world" :P 13:58:55 * "Hello World" ; or? ;) 13:59:07 (defun hello-world () (format t "hello, world")) 13:59:10 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:59:12 (hello-world) 13:59:17 Yeah, was just joking. 13:59:36 ah ok the tute im reading said just ytping "hello world" was cheating so i didnt include that hehe 14:00:23 are macros in lisp similar to macros in C?\ 14:00:36 no 14:00:41 much more powerful. have you read the chapter on Macros in Practical Common Lisp? 14:00:41 cos macros in C are seen as a bit of a 'hack' 14:00:52 are macros seen as a 'hack' in lisp too? 14:00:58 not yet 14:00:59 not at all. 14:01:05 no, they are very consistent 14:01:25 interesting 14:01:27 thanks 14:04:07 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:07:08 what does 'cdr' stand for? 14:07:35 Contents of Decrement Register 14:08:43 banisterfiend: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAR_and_CDR#Origin_of_the_names_car_and_cdr 14:08:48 minion: what does CDR stand for? 14:08:49 Coregonoid Depeter Rheumatalgia 14:09:28 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:09:52 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-28.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 14:10:17 banisterfiend: Here's a CL macro for ya (defmacro backwards (expr) (reverse expr)) now you can rewrite your hello-world as (defun hello-world () (backwards ("hello, world!" t format))) I dare you to do that with a C macro ;) 14:11:20 cool 14:11:50 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.117.21] has joined #lisp 14:11:51 banisterfiend: Or maybe you like (backwards ((format t "hello, world!") () hello-world defun)) ;) 14:12:35 what about rot13-macro? 14:12:49 ugh! 14:13:17 surely there is an example almost concise which does something useful 14:13:23 Do we rot13 on symbols, or on characters? ;) 14:13:43 Pfft. 14:13:54 Nothing useful is ever done :) 14:16:05 benny [n=benny@i577A0A42.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:16:06 ... 14:16:07 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.250.151] has joined #lisp 14:16:44 H4ns: actually your yason may turn out to be the most convenient thing to use for config file type things 14:17:35 banisterfiend, if you know about Python and the new "with" keyword. In Lisp, that's just another macro. If it wasn't already in Lisp since thirty+ years ago, it'd be trivial to add. 14:17:40 locklace: glad to hear that it is useful. 14:17:48 i currently know ruby, and the creator of ruby said he loves lisp and was inspired by it but he thinks it gives you too much freedom and power so he created ruby as a more restricted alternative, how does that sound? like b.s, or not too bad a thing to say? 14:18:04 locklace: There's a cl library to parse curly-braces based config files 14:18:32 H4ns: it's helpful that it's lightweight and dependency-free. what does it do when there's a parse error? 14:18:42 tcr: yes, seen that one too 14:18:47 banisterfiend, I personally think that's a perfectly fine opinion. The problem with that statement, however is the assumption that your users are dumb. 14:19:05 locklace: bad news: it depends on alexandria now, and it is not handling parse errors gracefully. :) 14:19:25 banisterfiend: I don't know ruby, but e.g. Common Lisp is in some ways more restricted than python, making it possible to be compiled efficiently 14:19:31 H4ns: heh, damn 14:19:32 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 14:20:25 locklace: it is relatively easy to generate helpful parsing error messages using a line/column counting gray stream and a signal handler. but it is not built in. 14:20:36 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-30-249.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 14:21:04 ===================== 14:21:04 Guys what does it means this in LISP: table[i][k].keys() 14:21:05 ===================== 14:21:07 tic: well personally i cant wait to get my head around lisp, just because everyone seems to be raving about it, but im not sure i'll actually use it for real development projects...im more looking for a kind of insight you're supposed to get when you finally 'grok' lisp. let me show you a quote 14:21:13 asdasd: Buffer off. 14:21:20 asdasd: Bugger off 14:21:25 pvt pls 14:21:26 asdasd: please don't ever again use "=====" markers. 14:21:27 Lisp is worth learning for the profound enlightenment experience you will have when you finally get it; that experience will make you a better programmer for the rest of your days, even if you never actually use Lisp itself a lot. 14:21:49 Wow. 14:21:54 I have never seen that quote before ;) 14:22:07 Guys what does it means this in LISP: table[i][k].keys() ????????????????????? 14:22:16 by a guy called Eric Raymond, here's a website full of them: http://lispers.org/ 14:22:19 asdasd: Shut up already. You're annoying. 14:22:28 banisterfiend, that's probably true. on the other hand, it tends to mess with your head so programming other languages feels like a straitjacket. 14:22:38 banisterfiend: Lisps tend to be quite nice, yes. But they're not "magic" :) 14:22:48 banisterfiend: The book SICP, while not about Lisp per se, can have a profound impact on its reader. 14:23:13 what's sicp? 14:23:25 banisterfiend: Something you can google for. 14:23:26 minion: sicp? 14:23:26 sicp: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available gratis from (HTML), (texinfo) and (XHTML, PDF). Accompanying video lectures are available gratis at 14:23:30 Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs 14:23:36 ok thanks 14:23:40 ill stop bugging you guys now 14:23:52 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.253.166] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:24:15 banisterfiend: You're not bugging anyone :) 14:24:55 hehe well maybe ill come back and ask more questions when i actually start to write some code instead of just reading what ppl say about it on the net :) 14:25:38 banisterfiend, armed with PCL, you'll start writing code in notime. 14:29:55 when is sbcl 1.0.23 set to come out? 14:30:41 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 14:30:44 today 14:32:46 -!- asdasd [n=asd@189.106.210.199] has left #lisp 14:41:42 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:48:52 netfrog [n=NetFrog@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has joined #lisp 14:49:12 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 14:49:45 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:25 -!- rcy [n=rcy@shop.freegeekvancouver.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:54:12 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp459.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 14:59:34 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 15:01:02 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 15:01:10 -!- drwhen [n=who@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:05:20 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:53 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:11:23 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.135.148] has joined #lisp 15:12:53 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5d4f.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:13:07 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 15:13:18 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 15:13:40 Good afternoon. 15:13:47 good morning 15:15:20 Massena [n=pavle@bl6-195-126.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:16:35 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 15:18:15 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:21:37 beach, you timezone-ist 15:22:07 jpcooper: how so? 15:23:24 Hey gents! Could anyone help me with the installation of SBCL? I couldn't find any other place where to put my questions 15:23:52 Massena: what seems to be the problem? 15:24:10 apt-get install sbcl 15:24:11 A bus error when I try to run it 15:24:19 on os x 15:24:28 netfrog: Last time I looked that was not the right answer. 15:24:43 Massena: did you install it from sourceforge? 15:24:52 beach: worked fine for me :) 15:24:56 Massena: Did you install from source or from a binary? 15:25:03 from source 15:25:16 Massena: just get the binary from sourceforge. 15:26:07 oh, that's what I did 15:26:12 Massena: which osx version? ISTR, there was a 10.4 vs. 10.5 issue 15:26:17 I ran install.sh 15:26:21 10.4 15:26:35 I just followed http://www.sbcl.org/getting.html 15:27:20 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:27:23 usr/local/bin is in my path 15:27:27 yeah, if I remember correctly the binaries only work on 10.5. 15:27:28 and sbcl is in it 15:27:33 oh 15:27:35 that must be it 15:27:36 chandler: are you there? 15:28:36 minion: memo for chandler: do the current sbcl binaries for OSX work on 10.4? 15:28:36 Remembered. I'll tell chandler when he/she/it next speaks. 15:28:49 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:29:00 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 15:29:09 unfortunately, I can't test it. I am running Leopard. 15:29:18 Do older builds work? 15:29:36 Massena: You could compile it from the sources 15:29:58 Massena: You need an existing CL implementation for that though. 15:29:59 should; in principle you could download an older build and compile a recent one by yourself 15:30:28 vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has joined #lisp 15:30:52 ok, I'll try later 15:31:00 thanks 15:31:02 beach: How was the Swiss wine? 15:31:17 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.195.255] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:31:41 ahaas: Some of it was very good indeed. Apparently very hard to get outside Switzerland. 15:31:59 That's interesting. 15:32:00 -!- netfrog [n=NetFrog@line106-24.adsl.actcom.co.il] has left #lisp 15:34:42 njsg_ [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 15:34:43 What's difference between "x = y" and "memcpy(...)" in http://rafb.net/p/wlTTlR31.html 15:34:56 vy: wrong channel? 15:35:08 Oops! 15:35:55 *vy* is getting messed up of debugging buggy lecture codes. 15:36:22 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:36:45 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ca97caf6499e0ae3] has joined #lisp 15:37:27 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:56 njsg__ [n=njsg@bl10-87-80.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 15:38:49 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:40:37 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 15:40:52 -!- njsg is now known as Guest66185 15:42:14 -!- njsg__ is now known as njsg- 15:42:27 kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-72-68-48-17.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:37 -!- njsg- [n=njsg@bl10-87-80.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 15:43:34 nunojsilva [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 15:43:48 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 15:44:24 -!- njsg_ [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:44:29 -!- nunojsilva is now known as njsg 15:46:55 I'm compiling SBCL 1.0.2{1,2} but I get an "bad register name %rbp" error. Is this a FAQ? 15:49:00 -!- Guest66185 [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:49:08 ehu: ...wrong arch? trying to build sb-thread on an unsupported platform? (iirc) 15:49:27 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 15:50:41 i386? 15:51:12 hmm. x86_64 15:51:24 doesn't that do threads? 15:53:06 yes 15:54:11 (you know what would be nice? if the platform table had a *SMALL* annotation in each cell on whether threads, executable images, etc are supported, and are on-in-this-binary, for each cell) 15:54:19 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.186] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:56:30 kpreid: too crowded. cell could be linked to a list of those features. Perhaps additionally some on-hover tooltip which shows the same information 15:56:41 that's why I said "small" 15:56:55 like a 25-pixel icon 15:57:13 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.135.148] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:57:21 how about a string of the letters of each feature, such as T for threads, E for executable images, etc. 15:57:40 or would that also be too crowded? 15:57:57 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:58:23 I would not recommend either of those, for various UI reasons. then again, I am also not the target audience, so mu. 15:59:21 *ehu* would like that too 15:59:23 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.117.21] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:59:31 yes as in "indeed, no threads"? 16:00:08 is it possible to bind an object to a dynamic variable named by a string? 16:00:10 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.1.58] has joined #lisp 16:00:29 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8ac8-130.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:00:30 mbac: no, names of variables are symbols. 16:00:49 (names of symbols are strings though) 16:00:53 i can't create a new symbol from a string and somehow get a reference to it? 16:01:02 mbac: you can. 16:01:04 mbac, maybe INTERN? 16:01:11 (set (intern "string") 10) ? 16:01:29 tic: find-symbol? 16:01:33 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.22] has joined #lisp 16:01:36 mbac: the usual question people get when they want to do that is "why do you want to do that?" 16:01:56 (and the usual answer has something to do with web probramming) 16:02:14 (intern (format nil "foo-~A" (symbol-name "bar"))) 16:02:29 That was wrong, sorry. 16:03:02 beach, tab-completion 16:03:06 (move symbol-name outside of format but keep "bar" as an argument) 16:03:23 mbac: can you elaborate on that? 16:03:29 *sigh* it is probably a sign of me being too long around that I could predict how this conversation would unfold... 16:03:33 i'm relating some records and the records are keyed by string 16:03:57 michaelw, "you're doing it completely wrong"? 16:04:23 and it would be even more convenient if i could have the environment (emacs) help me tab-complete the names 16:04:24 mbac: OK, so why do you want symbols then? 16:04:49 oh, hmm, emacs won't know about the symbols that were interned 16:05:19 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 16:05:20 mbac: are you talking Emacs Lisp here? 16:05:25 no ;) 16:05:36 tic: YOU are doing it wrong (and stassats), and ehu tried to fix the bad suggestions with a better one, thereby still muddling the picture :/ 16:06:39 michaelw, OK, so what I meant was: is mbac asking the wrong question? 16:06:43 kpreid: so I need to disable threads? 16:06:44 beach was spot-on with his answer, and it was clear that he would guide mbac to the point of realizing that his request was somewhat odd, and likely not what he really wanted 16:06:47 hmm. too bad 16:07:21 ehu: I don't know 16:07:32 it was also something i wanted to know in case i did need it for a more appropriate situation some day 16:07:36 ehu: is it linux-x86-64? works fine with threads for me 16:07:43 mr. cynical internet user 16:07:59 stassats`: yes it is. 16:08:28 stassats`: both 1.0.22 and 1.0.21 fail 16:08:37 ehu: what distro? maybe something wrong with binutils 16:08:41 drewc: did you compile either on a VPS like mine? 16:08:52 stassats`: Debian on a tech.coop VPS 16:10:07 stassats`: it's backtrace.c failing. 16:10:31 in make-1 16:10:32 ehu: sorry, i'm not familiar with sbcl's guts 16:10:55 i have debian too, but unstable 16:12:31 c|mell [n=cmell@cad4e7-243.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:12:33 hmm 16:12:36 ok 16:14:40 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:15:13 i conjecture, that gcc/gas thinks that it compiles 32-bit code, hence it doesn't know about %rbp 16:17:39 ehu: what gcc -v and as --version are saying about target? 16:18:42 Almost done with all the letters: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/fonts.png 16:18:55 Quadrescence: I redesigned the capital letters. 16:18:59 will 1.0.22.19 be tagged as 1.0.23 ? or any last commits ? 16:19:21 stassats`: i486-linux-gnu 16:19:35 ehu: so, i was right 16:19:36 and gcc 4.2.1 16:19:39 oh. 16:19:42 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.250.151] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:19:47 gcc 4.1.2 16:19:49 it need to be x86_64-linux-gnu for x86_64 16:19:50 ah. 16:19:58 right. 16:20:03 thanks. 16:21:35 disumu [n=disumu@p57A254E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:07 cpape [n=user@p5484BA38.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:16 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:26:16 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 16:30:06 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:13 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-62-240.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:35:33 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:37 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-62-240.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:37:55 stassats`: actually, that knowledge didn't help me to fix the issue... 16:38:51 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 16:41:31 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 16:41:51 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 16:42:15 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:42:56 cmo-0 [n=user@auh-as20461.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #lisp 16:45:01 ehu: maybe be you have 32-bit gcc installed? 16:45:50 -!- esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["leaving"] 16:49:18 dwave_ [n=ask@212251241088.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 16:54:42 -!- drdo` is now known as drdo 16:57:49 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:59:02 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 17:01:18 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:01:43 why people say that lisp isn't much used? I've just read an article that says that it is one of the most used language in the free software world and it's somekind of used in universitary/research environment. 17:01:53 any special reason why people say lisp isn't that much used? 17:02:04 because, according to that article, lisp IS much used. 17:02:11 phao: php, perl, python, java, c++, c are "used much" 17:02:24 neurogeek||m [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has joined #lisp 17:02:25 phao: it's not used as much as other languages. And in Academia, i 17:02:33 *it seems Java still holds strongly 17:02:48 ok 17:03:18 and the thing about free software is about the biggest chunk of free software lisp code, I think. Known as EMACS 17:05:57 phao: That article basically counted elisp, and Emacs is pretty ubiquitous. 17:06:03 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit ["leaving"] 17:06:29 phao: In reality, Common Lisp is not used much, but it is used. 17:06:31 ubiquitous in academia 17:06:39 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 17:07:11 The funny thing about Emacs, is that it's often the MAth depts that have it pre-installed. CS sees stuff like Eclipse and BlueJ ;_; 17:09:15 Common Lisp ubiquitous in academia? 17:09:41 ehehe p_l :) 17:09:57 tic: emacs. 17:11:46 there are people who like to use languages just because there are other people using them 17:11:55 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.1.58] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:11:55 an example being the java fever 17:12:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-72-68-48-17.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 17:12:20 tic: at least somewhat in at least one place :) 17:14:27 phao: People who feel unsafe and have to make sure others use *their* prefered langauge and not some other one, will do anything to spread rumors about the others, including ridiculing the users of those other languages. 17:14:37 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.187.111] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:15:25 i presume 'lisp is interpretated' falls into that category 17:15:43 njsg: indeed yes. 17:15:55 p_l: every computer in the CS dept when I was in college had emacs 17:16:02 phao: such people are called "performance oriented" and you can read about them here: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/psychology.html 17:16:03 one or two labs had eclispe 17:16:11 I don't know what BlueJ is :S 17:16:18 *njsg* is taking a course in which teachers use the taught implementation of R5RS as an example of interpretated language 17:16:19 njsg: No, Lisp is interpreciated. ;-) 17:16:49 -!- Massena [n=pavle@bl6-195-126.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [] 17:17:22 njsg: (It is interpreted, not interpretated.) 17:17:52 interpretificationalized 17:18:03 beach, perfection-orientedness can be a handicap, too. 17:18:18 tic: you're telling me? :) 17:18:42 rsynnott: After scouting the whole uiversity system for the common apps (i.e. not on certain workstations), I found only a mostly non-working links to emacs 17:18:49 ths: oh, sorry (I should have born in an english-speaking country, it'd be easier that way) 17:18:58 beach, *laugh* 17:19:40 it was PLT scheme, and I have the idea it's compiled, but even if it isn't, it's bad enough to use an implementation as the definition of the language 17:20:13 njsg: PLT is afaik both interpreted (maybe bytecode compiled?) and compiled to native 17:21:59 beach, got actual experience with the performance-oriented, specifically the "defend" and "bad-mouth" aspect? (seems like a very uncommon personality trait) 17:22:18 tic: I do, yes. 17:23:37 tic: People no longer attack me personally in those ways, but that may be a function of my position. 17:24:06 -!- binghe [n=chatzill@60.12.227.4] has left #lisp 17:25:21 *tic* firmly places himself in the performance-oriented box when it comes to editors. ;) 17:25:35 *H4ns* yawns 17:26:50 "i can't use emacs because it is too slow" 17:27:09 part that, part my wrists killing me. 17:27:27 (I don't want to start a holy war) 17:27:51 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:54 tic: Tried remapping keyboard? (Ctrl swapped with CapsLock does wonders, not only for emacs) 17:28:06 emarsden [n=user@mir31-3-82-234-52-44.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:28:17 you must not be a vim user then 17:28:19 p_l, customized Swedish/Polish variation of Dvorak and remapped CTRL, yup. 17:28:32 it is a good change, indeed. ctrl is much more used than caps lock 17:29:14 njsg: There is a reason they have their position swapped on workstation keyboards... <-- wants a LK43x 17:29:42 p_l, I can dearly recommend the Das Keyboard III. 17:29:45 H4ns: usually when people say that i find that they're trying to start a new emacs every time they want to edit something 17:29:53 doesn't olpc xo have ctrl in the 'home row'? 17:29:53 josemanuel [n=josemanu@180.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:30:41 tic: nah, it doesn't have the keys LK4xx had :) 17:30:54 -!- george [n=george@189.107.138.138] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:31:02 there are really some strange things on pc keyboards, but the great deal here is the way 'internationalization' was approached (or if you like 'nationalization') 17:31:14 p_l, probably not.. more of a comfort thing. mechanical switches is as close to honey you get without getting sticky. 17:31:37 njsg, I thought there were mainly two flavours of PC keyboards, 103 and 105 keys. 17:31:54 tic: unreasonably noisy, though 17:31:55 tic: those are old keyboards - mechanical switches is much more often there :) 17:32:20 *rsynnott* has an IBM Model M, but can't actually use it much due to flatmates protesting 17:32:24 tic: 101,102,103,104,105,109, and I think 112 17:32:24 rsynnott, it's a mixed blessing. you get both audial and tactical feedback. I think the end-result is good. (I thought I'd get annoyed at it, but...) 17:32:43 *p_l* had the same problem as rsynnott 17:33:02 now I find the keyboard in my Thinkpad "just right" when it comes to feedback 17:33:27 benny99 [n=bebenny@p5486D9CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:58 tic: just compare pictures/representations of us and pt 17:34:18 njsg, the US being 102/103, and the PT being 104/105 right? 17:37:14 something around that 17:38:01 this has 102 17:38:07 but misses two supers and a 'menu key' 17:38:35 maybe that was not interesting for 80486 17:40:14 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:42:24 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 17:42:50 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 17:44:12 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 17:44:41 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 17:45:02 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:45:12 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 17:50:01 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@212251241088.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:51:41 {L,R}{meta, super, hyper, 2*control}+ help ;-) 17:53:07 Though If I got lisp machine layout into my computer, people would lose last hopes of borrowing the access... 17:54:07 it would be secure 17:54:25 stassats`: They already freak out seein XMonad and Vimperator 17:54:31 *seeing 17:55:47 nostoi [n=nostoi@147.Red-83-61-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:26 -!- replor is now known as hoho 17:57:58 jaoswald [n=user@user-12lcm58.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 17:59:58 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:01:18 pnorton [n=pnorton@99.164.27.22] has joined #lisp 18:05:52 esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 18:08:08 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@auh-as20461.alshamil.net.ae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:14:46 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 18:17:21 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 18:21:24 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-117-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:27 beach: why the big difference in weight between the letters on lines 9 and 10? 18:27:10 -!- phao [n=phao@20158137141.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:28:41 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:32 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:34:12 ahaas: around? 18:34:51 drewc: yes 18:35:00 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:36:07 ahaas: did you happen to be one of the people who compiled sbcl on our 64 bit machines with a 32 bit userspace? 18:37:00 -!- keram [n=oof@unaffiliated/keram] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:37:31 drewc: I think I did compile SBCL with clbuild, but I don't remember doing anything special. 18:39:52 drewc: I think I bootstrapped that with an SBCL binary, but I'm running the clbuild version now. 18:40:12 ahaas: ok, i must be remembering someone else. 18:40:19 phao [n=phao@20158137141.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 18:40:24 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:40:29 lnostdal: was it you? 18:42:23 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:18 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-117-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:45:00 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-117-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:47:08 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ca97caf6499e0ae3] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 18:47:18 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5d4f.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 18:47:38 dwave_ [n=ask@212251241088.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:49:35 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:59:48 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@147.Red-83-61-171.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:06:25 drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 19:07:31 -!- drdo`` is now known as drdo 19:13:45 nibbles [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/nibbless] has joined #lisp 19:14:14 i have a 10,000 line long sexp in a file, is (load "data.lisp") the best way to import the data? 19:14:21 -!- phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [] 19:14:27 phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 19:14:59 load will execute it 19:15:25 those mean the same thing to me 19:15:47 (the sexp is just data) 19:16:19 You could just read the data. With read, instead of load. 19:16:23 mbac: if your data is (defun .....) then you would maybe like to execute it.. if it is ((white bunnies) (green kangaroos) ...) maybe you do not want to execute it. 19:16:46 (let (*read-eval*) (w-o-f (stream file) (read file))) 19:16:57 (read stream) 19:17:03 i'm not sure. what i'm doing now is wrapping the whole thing in (defparameter *data* ...10,000 lines...) 19:17:25 so after calling load i access it through *data* 19:18:27 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 19:20:22 what i'd prefer though is something like this (map 'list #'massage (load-data "data.lisp")) 19:21:02 since the data needs some minor transformations but i don't want to keep these transformations on disk 19:21:29 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:23:59 mbac: Like stassats` indicated, open the file, then use LOOP + READ to get at its content. 19:28:48 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 19:29:31 bono [i=bono@118-168-235-130.dynamic.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:40 friend 19:29:58 my big brother told me yesterday 19:30:06 lisp was dead 19:30:12 bono: go away 19:30:20 im currently learn emacs 19:30:42 ahaas:fuck u , im asking opinion 19:30:54 minion, tell bono about pcl-book 19:30:54 bono: direct your attention towards pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 19:31:53 bono: You should perhaps try to learn orthography first. 19:32:34 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:32:38 fuether opinion 19:32:39 ? 19:32:43 further 19:33:56 i would like to know why he should think lisp was dead 19:34:04 ay 19:34:08 282 ppl here 19:34:11 bono: ask him that, don't pollute here 19:34:23 no 19:34:50 bono: do some googling... personal opinions rarely help (applies to your brother, too) 19:35:08 ppl have me to go away just show that maybe it's reaaly dead? 19:35:41 attila:i love hearing from peple 19:36:34 bono: we are running webapps for the government written in lisp. what do you think, would you be surprised by my answer? 19:36:43 i care lisp's live not some normal common learning way,thats' borning 19:37:34 why should i? 19:37:37 bono: If you could write in coherent sentences and didn't sound like an obvious troll, people might be interested in answering your queries. 19:37:47 I've seen bots that could better communicate than you do. 19:37:53 well 19:38:13 coherent sentencse? less like perl? 19:39:25 bono: how old are you, just out of curiosity... 19:39:35 32 19:39:38 oh lisp is dead again. 19:40:08 programming languages die hard 19:40:27 karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has joined #lisp 19:40:36 bono: you don't sound like that, but who am i to question... 19:43:17 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169F2C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:44:39 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 19:45:28 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 19:46:14 oh weblocks on freshmeat. How nice :) 19:47:47 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:47:48 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:48:40 Fade [n=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 19:52:11 rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-98-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:52:19 drewc, nope, not me 19:53:29 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 19:54:42 yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has joined #lisp 19:56:29 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:06 -!- Fade [n=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:57:52 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:58:41 -!- karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:00:31 -!- phao [n=phao@20158137141.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:05:18 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:05:53 (w-o-f (stream "foo.lisp") (read stream)) is so cool 20:06:00 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:43 drewc, hm .. but i recall compiling SBCL had some problems, yeah .. if this is what this is about .. i just dump images here locally and rsync now 20:08:15 -!- benny99 [n=bebenny@p5486D9CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:10:16 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:10:43 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 20:12:50 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 20:13:58 lnostdal: yeah, ehu was having issue compiling sbcl on our 64 bit Xen with a 32 bit userland. I think it was just a matter of SBCL_ARCH=x86, as make.sh pull that value from uname -a. 20:16:00 bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 20:16:28 "Well, there's your problem." 20:17:44 TelvistaMX [i=c9aaaf23@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0a72bbc78bf51ba9] has joined #lisp 20:17:52 Tired of black people and their monkeyshines? Join us at Chimpout! http://www.chimpout.com All human races are welcome to join, be it Whites, non Negroid Jews and Hispanics, Native Americans, and Asians! This is not white supremacist, but anti-niigggger. Humans vs NIIIGGGERS Join us today at Chimpout. 20:18:03 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:18:25 drewc: JFTR, a more reliable way is to use linux32 which switches the personality to 32 bit. 20:18:40 Fieldy [n=heh@gentoo/contributor/Fieldy] has joined #lisp 20:19:10 drewc: I have yet to see linux32 help in anything on current distros. 20:19:20 Tired of black people and their monkeyshines? Join us at Chimpout! http://www.chimpout.com All human races are welcome to join, be it Whites, non Negroid Jews and Hispanics, Native Americans, and Asians! This is not white supremacist, but anti-niigggger. Humans vs NIIIGGGERS Join us today at Chimpout. 20:19:21 skenmy [i=skenmy@freenode/staff/wikimedia.skenmy] has joined #lisp 20:19:26 hrm 20:19:32 Dutchangel [n=POCT@143-137-ftth.onsnetnuenen.nl] has joined #lisp 20:19:39 someone please. 20:19:47 for GCC, usually you only need to set proper platform string (and library set, of course) 20:19:50 -!- Dutchangel [n=POCT@143-137-ftth.onsnetnuenen.nl] has left #lisp 20:20:30 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 20:20:42 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o drewc 20:20:45 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 20:21:08 -!- drewc has set mode +b *!i=c9aaaf23@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0a72bbc78bf51ba9 20:21:08 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has been kicked from #lisp 20:21:32 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-73.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:39 thanks drewc 20:21:56 -!- ChanServ has set mode -o drewc 20:22:03 -!- Fieldy [n=heh@gentoo/contributor/Fieldy] has left #lisp 20:22:07 why is this channel so damn helpful? 20:22:08 is this a cult? 20:22:35 #lisp helps those that helps themselves. 20:22:38 -!- skenmy [i=skenmy@freenode/staff/wikimedia.skenmy] has left #lisp 20:22:47 mbac: Yes, It's the Order of the Paren 20:22:56 heh 20:23:03 Parental Knights? :) 20:23:40 Paren Knights! Users of parens, elegant weapons for a more civilized age! :P 20:23:42 at 33rd degree you become the parens 20:23:50 it's Knights of the Lambda Calculus, fwiw. 20:24:04 So it's parenthetical, not parental. 20:24:37 drewc: Oh right, forgot this one. But AFAIK the membership in this one was restricted to survivors of a certain university's course, wasn't it? ;P 20:25:15 bombshel3er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 20:25:31 bombshel4er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 20:26:07 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 20:28:24 *p_l* didn't made it for 6.001 20:29:23 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit ["The world is coming to an end. Please log-off."] 20:32:33 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:33:39 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:00 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fb9c67cfc907383c] has joined #lisp 20:34:28 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 20:35:51 -!- nibbles [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/nibbless] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:36:19 -!- dwave_ [n=ask@212251241088.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:39:13 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:43:45 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:45 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:44:17 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:58 qbg [n=qbg@170-215-40-227.dsl1.mond.mn.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:43 fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has joined #lisp 20:49:38 madnificent [n=user@83.101.2.52] has joined #lisp 20:49:53 mbac: these might help you: http://www.cl-user.net/asp/html-docs/process-file-snippset 20:50:09 stassats`: linux32 did the trick. 20:51:14 mbac: and with the SERIES library, reading a file of sexps can be done with (collect (scan-file "foo")) 20:51:36 *rsynnott* was unaware of code snippets on cl-user 20:51:57 cl-user would actually be a very nice resource if it wasn't so terribly weird from a ui perspective 20:52:28 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 20:52:36 rsynnott: also, searching with the cl-user search didn't find this page 20:53:50 who maintains it? 20:53:57 Marc, I guess 20:54:36 it seems like a combination with cliki could work well in theory 20:55:08 right now there's redudant info, and cl-user can do clever things that cliki can't (dependency charts etc) ut cliki is far more usable 20:55:37 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:22 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:57:20 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:57:49 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:02:44 Marc does, from server and code perspective. Others have content-maintenance duties. 21:04:14 rsynnott: I don't think cl-user has an API to retrieve download links for asdf; cliki has. it would be nice if cl-user would have that too. 21:05:30 definately 21:05:36 more mirrors cant hurt 21:06:32 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:06:50 bono: You'll have to excuse my more ... abrupt fellow channel goers here. People have been saying lisp is dead for, literally, probably 30 years. It gets old. 21:07:01 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:07:34 I thought 2008 was the year of lisp on the desktop, and now I am told it is dead!? 21:08:28 year of lisp on the desktop? who said that? 21:08:33 Yeah. It's really really not. Doesn't mean people need to be jerks about it, though. 21:08:54 hefner: I have weird dreams at night :) 21:09:22 Abraham [n=Abraham@189-177-112-217.dyn.adsl.belcenter.be] has joined #lisp 21:10:00 "to keep a reasonable signal-to-noise ratio on this channel, noise emitters who show no interest in signal will be shown the door. 21:10:02 have a nice day." 21:11:30 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:23 Krystof: Oh. I guess there are channel rules I don't know about? URL? 21:12:55 -!- Abraham [n=Abraham@189-177-112-217.dyn.adsl.belcenter.be] has left #lisp 21:13:07 sorry, that's _not_ a completely obvious rule? 21:13:50 you really want that written up on a webpage somewhere, rather than just be an accepted part of civilized discourse? 21:14:37 well, it is RIC... 21:14:45 rlpowell: it's been the way #lisp works for years. I appreciate it. If you want to discuss lisp coding, except for homework, you're most welcome 21:15:18 Krystof: I really would like to see that rule enforced... 21:16:05 was there some other channel where at least a subset of you guys hang out and the range of topics is more diverse? ;) 21:16:23 try #lispcafe 21:16:29 ah..that 21:16:39 when there were fewer people here, and everyone knew each other at least virtually, it was easier to have (managed) off-topicness here 21:16:39 oh, forgot about that 21:16:57 with a large population, off-topic actively inhibits actual topic 21:16:59 though IIRC, it's largely made up of people who get kicked out of this channel for being too unpleasant 21:17:09 ah, gone are the years of discussions about bicycles... 21:17:35 and skating. Somehow, the MUDs remain... 21:17:49 Krystof: I try to be nice to people by default, so no. I generally go through a few rounds of attempting to share clue before I show people the door. It seems to me that the very first response to "my brother said Lisp was dead" should *not* be "go away". Signal is good, but education is good too. 21:18:21 anyone who, in their 30s, accepts the word of siblings on such things, has issues 21:18:33 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.2.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:19:01 rsynnott: Depends what kind of siblings one have... 21:19:12 Like trust? 21:19:40 Exactly. If my siblings *didn't* take my word on the state of programming languages, they'd be morons, because I use computers for a living and they don't. 21:19:42 rlpowell: He could neither spell nor articulate clearly, that made him appear like a waste of time. 21:20:31 *rsynnott* may perhaps be more distrusting than average due to having largely insane extended family members 21:23:10 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 21:23:31 llo7f [n=llo@c-98-202-137-109.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:24:33 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:24:43 pkhuong pasted "Fix for (funcall 'cons x) in SBCL" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71238 21:26:05 pkhuong: I think so, because types declarations apply to names not to objects 21:26:35 Krystof: good; it made sense to me too, but I preferred a double check. 21:27:09 I assume for the sake of argument that variable names &c are meaningful rather than old-style-cmucl traps :-) 21:28:08 hang on. Does :declared actually mean :proclaimed? 21:28:31 pkhuong: That's a hell of a bug there. Nice. 21:28:40 manic12_ [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:43 (I know nothing about SBCL internals, so I can't actually help, I'm afraid) 21:29:30 otherwise, what about (defun foo (x) x) (defun bar (y) (flet ((foo (z) ...)) (declare (ftype (function ...) foo)) (funcall 'foo ...))) 21:30:28 madnificent [n=user@83.101.2.52] has joined #lisp 21:31:24 (the funcall in that case should definitely not inherit the ftype declaration) 21:33:00 I don't think it exists, but is there a common lisp (or something resembling it) implementation for javascript? I'm searching for possibilities to integrate webapps 21:33:11 mehrheit, how's the AI project coming along? 21:34:50 madnificent: this isn't a very practical suggestion, but: the initial javascript implementation for netscape(? mozilla?) was written in MCL 21:35:18 hm, wait, is that the way round you want? A CL implementation of Javascript or a Javascript implementation of a useful-enough Lisp? 21:35:30 Krystof: might not be practical, but it is nice to know too :P 21:35:37 Krystof: the second one 21:36:01 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:36:09 madnificent: javascript is basically a lisp already .. why not just use parenscript and be done with it? 21:36:20 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:36:26 drewc, indeed, es4 has generic functions even! 21:37:06 Krystof: wow. That's really interesting! 21:37:14 drewc: for one, because I don't know it :P... secondly I'm actually just looking for the sweetest integration (which again means you might have given me a very good answer) 21:37:33 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:49 madnificent: i could not recommend developing and in-browser implementation of a lisp just to use lisp in the browser... paranscript basically just compiles a lisp syntax to javascript, and since it's written in common lisp you can use it with your regular tools. 21:39:02 http://mxr.mozilla.org/mozilla/source/js2/semantics/ 21:39:22 -!- llo7f [n=llo@c-98-202-137-109.hsd1.ut.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:40:00 Is there a way to find out the number of commits made to a cvs repository? 21:40:14 perhaps you could use parenscript to communicate with a Javascript VM through an FFI vaguely nicely 21:40:17 tcr, emulating SVN are we? 21:40:37 tcr: by running cvs2svn you may get an estimate 21:40:39 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-73.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:42:03 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-73.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:16 drewc: parenscript looks very nice 21:42:50 drewc: I was thinking of running a client and a server. The client being a limited version of lisp in javascript... This integrates nicer, I guess. 21:43:06 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:17 -!- qbg [n=qbg@170-215-40-227.dsl1.mond.mn.frontiernet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:54 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-2-124.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:44:19 rsynnott: yes, I'm going to try something like that one day. If the communication-hassles could be abstracted, CL could form a very quick web '2.0' development environment 21:45:55 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:46:07 ehu: I do not have access to the repository's file location 21:50:58 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:46 madnificent: as a javascript generator? 21:54:29 doxtor [i=mitja@cpe-92-37-11-74.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:56 unfortuantely, while Google and Apple now have very fast javascript VMs, and mozilla is catching up, the status quo is the very slow IE6/7 ones, and will continue to be for some time 21:56:10 rsynnott: not really. You could write a javascript-communication library in parenscript (if it isn't overobvious or done already) and make the communication with the lisp-backend somewhat easier. That AJAX-library can then use external libraries (or whatnot) to give that look that companies seem to ask for over and over again 21:56:15 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@180.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 21:56:26 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-117-031.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:56:46 ah, I see what you mean, yes 21:56:51 ** which means: one reason less for me to have to code in rails ;) 21:57:01 particularly interesting if you had it doing 'comet' communications 21:57:47 comet? 21:58:55 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 21:59:14 effectively faked push communications over HTTP 21:59:26 (used by things like the google talk web client) 21:59:53 push to an iframe? 22:00:04 that's one method used 22:00:37 can't you push to any html element? like a div? 22:00:38 another is opening an asynchronous connection to a site which doesn't return any data until the server wants to send a message to the client 22:00:48 there are a few variants 22:00:51 oh, yes... that *must* be possible. I really like REST, so I'd like to try to get as much as possbible through that (and that requires POST through JS) 22:01:00 Krystof: it means proclaimed (using the infodb for lexical declarations would be ugly, although not inconceivable :) 22:01:07 (some work better in some browsers, some in others) 22:01:27 sykopomp, the entire point of pushing is to do it to a page, i.e an iframe. you can't push to a div as such. 22:01:44 the 'long poll' method (wait on open connection until it returns some data, then establish new connection) is most compatible and works through most proxies, but is wasteful 22:01:48 rsynnott: in any case, it's not something that 'll be finished soon. But this library brought web-development a whole lot closer 22:01:49 hum 22:02:25 vasa [n=vasa@mm-186-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 22:08:40 -!- phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:09:40 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:21:48 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:23:51 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 22:24:22 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-73.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 22:26:24 tmi` [n=user@213.151.151.8] has joined #lisp 22:26:56 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:32:21 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fb9c67cfc907383c] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:33:48 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:33:51 `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.2.52] has joined #lisp 22:34:05 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:37:48 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-14-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:29 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.2.52] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:41:32 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:45:32 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-186-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:51:03 -!- rootzlevel [n=hpd@91-66-191-98-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["leaving"] 22:51:10 Abelian [n=adam@host-137-205-75-209.res.warwick.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 22:51:30 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:52:07 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 22:52:12 -!- Abelian [n=adam@host-137-205-75-209.res.warwick.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:12 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.49.175] has joined #lisp 22:55:56 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:57:24 Massena [n=pavle@bl6-195-126.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:00:11 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 23:00:23 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["CANada > AmeriCANTs"] 23:01:03 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:32 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:03:40 -!- msingh [n=user@203.171.123.8.dynamic.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:06:24 jeho [n=user@53-186.adsl.zetnet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 23:11:23 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483DD5A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:12:01 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.49.175] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:12:24 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:26 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 23:17:26 Good evening. 23:18:16 evenin' beach 23:20:54 Yay, someone complimented me in a comment on a public blog. Happyness. :) 23:20:56 sykopomp: do you ever sleep? 23:21:10 tic: do you ever sleep? 23:21:20 tic: congratulations! 23:21:26 tic: what over? 23:21:40 beach, I do -- in fact, I slept between 19 and 20 because I couldn't keep my eyes open. 23:22:02 I see. 23:22:21 rsynnott, on always having great answers to all kinds of questions related to the human metabolism and related things. 23:22:31 beach: Sometimes I sleep. It's unreliable, really, but I rarely if ever sleep early. 23:22:52 beach, why do you ask? 23:23:14 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:38 ah :) 23:23:42 biochemist? 23:23:55 tic: because you wake up early, so I wouldn't expect you to be awake when I am (exceptionally) awake late myself. 23:24:51 rsynnott, nope. (mad) computer scientist. I just tend to get extremely focused on things. 23:25:17 beach, I can see how you get that impression. Key here is to get up early, but have a nap around 10. ;) 23:26:13 tic: fine! I do that during the weekend (which it admittedly is), and I did have a nap myself today. 23:26:13 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:26:24 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 23:26:52 beach, except I do that almost every day, heh. Damn fatigue. :) 23:26:55 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 23:27:31 tic: I would if I could. Combined with a sauna, it would be great! 23:27:56 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:59 *tic* laughs and hopes the police doesn't see him 23:28:54 tic: my sauna is bigger than that of the city of Pessac nearby. 23:29:14 tic: which I take advantage of at least 3 days a week in the winter. 23:29:40 beach, you have a bigger sauna than the city of Pessac? That is indeed a large sauna! Share, will ya? :) 23:29:54 tic: sure, no problem. 23:30:45 *tic* takes the morning tram to Bx. 23:30:50 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:31:00 beach, got any new glyphs? 23:31:49 tic: only the ones I posted a couple hours ago. Up to capital R. 23:32:28 beach, it feels ... French. 23:32:58 Which is not a good thing. I like the font. Are you planning on making a monospaced one, eventually? 23:33:22 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Disconnecting from stoned server."] 23:33:27 tic: eventually, yes. Give me time! 23:33:32 bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:01 tic: you confuse me: The font feels French, which is not a good thing, but you like it. 23:34:21 beach, skip the not. Freudian slip. 23:34:32 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:57 beach, and you need the monospaced font done by Monday morning. (take your time, was just probing to see if it was in the queue) 23:35:50 tic: I need the monospaced font whenever I want to. Monday morning is out of the question. 23:36:46 beach, nor shall thou have it done by Tuesday? Wednesday is right out. 23:36:50 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 23:37:05 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl9-120-205.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:37:29 beach, so, monospaced font for mcclim's command line? 23:37:55 tic: I am in the wonderfully priviledged situation where I get paid no matter when it gets done. 23:38:48 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:38:49 beach, I was paraphrasing Monty Pyhton's The Holy Grail 23:39:14 tic: missed that. Sorry. 23:39:18 But this is *way* past my bedtime (despite the nap), so I'll see y'all in the morning. 23:39:24 Night! 23:40:52 -!- Jasko2 is now known as Jasko 23:41:35 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-28.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:43:06 V-ille, sent you an email 23:45:23 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.23.128] has joined #lisp 23:46:23 hm. I don't quite understand why climacs refuses to accept input unless my pointer is within the bounds of the window :( 23:47:14 xterm or aterm had the same bug (or behaviour), but there you could disable it via some X-resource setting... but it's annoying. 23:47:50 tic: Ah, the Book of Armaments. 23:48:02 p_l, yes! 23:48:06 drwhen [n=who@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:47 persi [n=user@adsl-4-108-237.cae.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:41 I personally prefer the scene with questions at the bridge :D 23:52:46 -!- emarsden [n=user@mir31-3-82-234-52-44.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:53:27 I don't. No wait, I do! 23:53:34 *tic* falls off the bridge and into bed. 23:53:37 BTW, presumably the biggest body of lisp code in use is Emacs & AutoLisp 23:55:18 but not common lisp code 23:55:55 *p_l* probably will have some work (unpaid ;_;) with AutoLisp 23:56:12 I strongly suspect that honour belongs to ita these days 23:56:57 sykopomp: that's a behavioural thing common of old xwindows stuff 23:57:41 That's simply the X11 typical behaviour 23:58:17 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl9-120-205.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:58:33 *the typical behaviour under X11 23:58:44 athos_ [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp