00:00:01 yeah.. i erased the LET a few seconds ago hehe 00:01:37 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 00:01:44 lol i feel stupid 00:01:46 You really need to read a book on Lisp, though. You have some fundamental misgivings that would be cleared up in the first chapter or two of a book. 00:01:52 it worked just fine now. thanks 00:02:06 i will. :) 00:03:16 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:04:21 a-s [n=user@92.80.98.132] has joined #lisp 00:04:42 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:05:40 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 00:06:12 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:07:21 p_l [n=pl@62.6.163.133] has joined #lisp 00:08:47 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:12:39 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:20:09 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-050-220.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:22:04 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-039-026.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:55 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:25:49 Fare [n=Fare@cpe-72-224-62-193.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:32:52 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 00:38:49 gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-19-75.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:17 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslaf232.osnanet.de] has quit [] 00:39:32 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:54 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-73.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:04 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 00:41:20 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:42:28 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 00:44:43 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 00:47:11 http://paste.lisp.org/display/71139#1 00:48:38 what is those (quote quote quote) (nil nil nil) ? 00:50:56 nibbles: Are you familiar with the hyperspec? 00:51:07 clhs quote 00:51:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_quote.htm 00:51:10 no. 00:51:26 If you don't know what a symbol means, you can look it up there. 00:51:32 nibbles: use only one quote when you are creating the matrices 00:53:00 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 00:53:02 p_l: ._. it worked 00:53:08 thanks 00:53:51 nibbles: keep hyperspec handy 00:57:15 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:58:04 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:42 nibbles: Is this homework? 00:59:46 george__ [n=george@189.107.172.127] has joined #lisp 01:00:06 ahaas: the homework is a tic tac toe 01:00:21 That's what I thought. 01:00:41 nibbles: Are you interested in learning Lisp? 01:00:48 i'm not asking for you to do my homework, am i ? 01:01:00 yes. im loving it lol 01:01:06 Well that's good. 01:01:10 so fucking powerful 01:01:21 but im not used with the syntax yet 01:01:45 cool ... we can say "fucking" without getting banned 01:01:59 lol sorry :S 01:02:04 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:02:16 lol ... i just commenting 01:02:27 I think being annoying is generally more of a sin than naughty words 01:02:51 some channels they get mad when you type "wtf" 01:03:32 they don't have too many parentheses as we do ! 01:03:34 lol 01:03:46 ehehe 01:05:26 TDT [n=TDT@12-216-53-104.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:07:34 How do I tell lisp that an inlined string is utf-8? 01:09:46 mogunus: you use cffi 01:10:14 or cl-unicode, or something 01:11:20 mogunus annotated #71132 with "this string" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71132#2 01:11:39 Fare: I might be using the word inlined wrong, it's just a string directly in a lisp program. 01:12:01 a string literal 01:12:43 mogunus: Which implementation are you using? 01:13:28 ahaas: SBCL 01:13:28 mogunus, oh, well then you make sure your lisp is aware of the utf8 encoding 01:13:41 usually, setting the locale variables will do 01:14:45 Fare: do I find that setting in CLHS or the SBCL manual? 01:15:28 CLHS doesn't know about utf8 01:15:34 SBCL manual will tell you 01:15:44 some variable in SBCL can override that 01:16:03 initialized from environment locale, I think 01:16:27 clisp has a command-line override, too 01:19:29 mogunus: I tried your string in my SBCL + Hunchentoot + CL-WHO setup and it didn't work either. 01:19:50 Just FYI. I don't usually work with other locales, though. 01:20:11 ahaas: thanks 01:20:14 I thought I had everything setup for UTF-8. 01:20:19 So I have :sb-unicode in my *features* 01:20:33 Are you sure that's utf-8? 01:20:45 ahaas: not entirely. How do I check? 01:20:52 -!- Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:21:06 I assumed that it was because when I tried to encode it using cl-who's encode-string, I just got more garbage. 01:22:01 I don't know, but there's gotta be a way. 01:22:12 mogunus: where's the string coming from? 01:22:22 oh, a string literal? 01:22:25 works for me 01:22:36 (http://myblog.rsynnott.com/2008/11/fun-with-cffi-and-wxwindowswxwidgets.html :) ) 01:22:44 are you using an old version? 01:23:04 *ahaas* has finally finished working for the day and goes to enjoy the last few hours of the holiday 01:23:12 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:23:13 actually, is it failing to display on the repl, or through hunchentoot? 01:23:21 where's it a holiday? 01:23:31 Thanksgiving in the U.S. 01:23:40 rsynnott: of sbcl? 1.0.19 01:23:40 oh, yep, of course :) 01:23:46 rsynnott: both 01:23:48 good night 01:24:01 ahaas: goodnight! thanks for the help 01:24:01 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:24:27 hmm, by default you;d exect it to fail in hunchentoot unless you've set both hunchentoot's external format and Content-type header thing correctly 01:24:33 should work in repl, though 01:24:43 using it through slime? 01:24:47 rsynnott: yes 01:24:59 weird 01:25:04 sure your input is utf8? 01:25:11 not entirely, no. 01:25:14 how do I check that? 01:25:22 editors on some platforms, especially windows, will sometimes default to utf-16 or ucs-2 01:25:32 or else use a code page 01:25:39 mogunus: hmm, using emacs? 01:25:50 rsynnott: yes. it displays properly in emacs 01:26:10 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:12 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:26:15 rsynnott: (there's a text file with a HUGE collection of these blurbs, I need to delianiate them and stick them up on the web automatically) 01:27:20 it's just a text file that came from a random place? 01:27:33 rsynnott: pretty much, yeah. 01:27:35 you could possibly at least have a guess using a hex editor 01:27:44 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:28:27 (if you see pattern 00 XX 00 XX 00 XX for the ascii segments where XX is something other than 00, probably utf16 01:28:58 and if non-ascii bits are consistently over 128, then not UTF-8, probably some code-page weirdness 01:29:06 there must be a simpler way, though, I assume 01:29:15 rsynnott: that's a pretty screenshot 01:29:44 fusss: unfortunately, the current backend is carbon, so more complex stuff won't be as pretty 01:30:11 (though they're allegedly shifting to cocoa; Apple is widely expected to kill carbon intheir next release) 01:30:17 do you have experience with wxcl on non-mac platforms? 01:30:49 not beyond using interfaces made with it :) 01:31:07 (oh, and I think I wrote something very simple with it in C++ when I was in high school) 01:31:12 (on linux) 01:31:51 there are useable things made with wx bindings for CL? what? 01:31:51 though I'm going to attempt to make sure things work on windows and linux as I work on the library 01:32:08 oh, sorry, read that as wxwidgets 01:32:13 fusss: nope, I don't think so 01:32:19 no, no worries 01:32:21 wxcl is not itself in a terribly usable state 01:32:32 (that's why I'm trying to write my own one) 01:32:38 i know, because i tested nearly every CL gui toolkit out there 01:32:56 your own wx bindings? or your own gui toolkit? 01:33:03 my own wx bindings 01:33:09 I'm not that ambitious ;) 01:33:19 no problemo :-) 01:33:32 (based on wxc, the C bindings for wxWidgets which are used by wxcl and wxhaskell) 01:33:41 froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 01:33:44 someone is writing an smalltalk gui and he trashed wx widgets and the "bindigs" approach to libraries 01:33:56 wxcl uses an ancient fork of them which doesn't work with modern wx 01:34:05 fusss: did he suggest a practical alternative? 01:34:18 fusss: Is this Newspeak? 01:34:29 sctb: yes, Brazil 01:35:19 i myself have my own infant gui toolkit, which i wont have time to work on 01:35:27 i'm using lambda-gtk as a backend 01:35:47 is lambda-gtk usable? 01:35:55 here it's http://blog.3plus4.org/2008/11/13/how-to-design-a-smalltalk-ui-framework/ 01:36:09 lambda-gtk caught me by surprise; for something with little fanfare, it's actually AMAZING 01:36:26 Brazil? 01:36:44 not many things work with CLISP, and not many things work with Win32 CLISP. Lambda-gtk does, and every other lisp i tried with it, both linux and windows. 01:36:48 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:37:02 Ah. NM. 01:37:10 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:37:57 only problem with lambda-gtk is that the author used an scheme FFI generation tool which disappeared off of the interweb 01:38:04 hmm, I would have expected most things to work with clisp 01:38:16 it's supported by cffi, right? 01:38:30 the tool is called FFIgen, and alternatively spelled as gen-ffi, ffi-gen and genFFI. hard to google :-P 01:39:18 gtk looks/feels shitty on osx though 01:39:29 and i'd say the same for windows last time i checked 01:39:42 xristos: i was able to theme the hell out of it to native win32 look. don't have os x, sadly. 01:39:51 fusss: I can't say I agree with the Brazil guy 01:40:23 MacOS's preferred UI stuff isn't acessible through C, and linux doesn't have just one 01:40:37 so things like wx seem a reasonable approach 01:40:49 ths [n=ths@X603a.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:40:49 fusss: currently, macos gtk support is not good 01:40:56 but his circumstances might be different, smalltalk still hasn't made up its mind on whether it wants to be a language or an OS 01:41:36 (there's a cocoa-based port, but it's buggy, so the practical option is to use X11, which looks and feels very wrong) 01:41:53 and requires the user to have X11 01:42:20 TDT_ [n=TDT@12-216-53-104.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 01:42:41 what does Clozure CL use? 01:43:00 it has a special objective C ffi 01:43:00 cocoa 01:43:11 which is very nice, but nothing else has it 01:43:12 i wouldnt call it special 01:43:20 (think LW may have something vaguely similar) 01:43:20 it just happens to be the only one that works 01:44:26 i think mcclim would be a good solutin 01:44:30 if it had an opengl backend 01:44:30 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:45:08 if slava can do it with factor i dont see why its not possible with lisp 01:45:12 thhat would look quite alien on any platform, though 01:45:19 no, it would look like Blender and tools that use self-drawn OpenGL GUIs: wrong. 01:45:26 no it wouldnt 01:45:35 factor ide doesnt look 'wrong' 01:45:53 Hmm. Emacs tells me that the text is indeed utf-8 01:45:53 it just wouldnt look native 01:45:59 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:46:43 fusss imo mcclim already looks worse than wrong on win32 and osx 01:47:01 when it works that is 01:47:18 The Factor Workspace doesn't look great, but it wouldn't take much to make it nice 01:47:27 mogunus: if you do (char-code (aref mystring x)), where x is a non-ascii char, what does it give you? 01:47:29 here is a possibly useful opengl gui toolkit. no screenshots anywhere though http://www.clutter-project.org/ 01:47:29 xristos: i don't think mcclim runs on win32 01:47:31 mogunus: don't trust emacs to do unicode right. it routinely fuzzes my arabic files. try with a simple native editor. 01:47:56 -!- TDT [n=TDT@12-216-53-104.client.mchsi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:47:58 on windows i use Unipad, and katoob on llinux 01:48:10 sctb that brings in a mirriad of libraries 01:48:58 xristos: I'm not advocating native widgets for Factor, but it could look better with just OpenGL 01:49:41 *rsynnott* thinks wxWidgets is probably a decent compromise 01:49:45 it looks and feels great afaik 01:49:47 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 01:49:56 if only mcclim could approach this 01:50:05 in that it looks broadly native everywhere, and doesn't require any direct messing with nasty things like win32 01:51:53 rsynnott: it gives me 241 01:52:37 rsynnott: for the tilde over the n 01:53:53 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:54:20 hmm, that SEEMS to be right 01:55:45 Something very odd is going on 01:56:06 but slime is failing to display it correctly? 01:56:15 WHen I use the REPL directly, and just give a string literal to my page macro, the HTML generated is correct 01:56:30 correct characters slime displays right and everything 01:56:38 I'm *copying * this text out of my source file 01:56:52 however, when I invoke a function from inside the file, again from the repl, the output is mangled. 01:57:03 and that char-code was from something defined in the source file? 01:57:04 oh, weird 01:57:07 Yeah 01:57:42 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X4d53.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:46 (standard-page (:title "mouse") (:p "...el Seņor de la Luz.")) 01:57:51 Totally correct output 01:58:18 but if I invoke the function with that string literal in it, (all that function does is call standard-page with some more :p tags) incorrect, mangled output. 01:58:50 rsynnott any news on those lisp web games you are working on ? 01:58:53 both times, on the repl. 01:59:11 xristos: game has launched :) 01:59:25 url ? 01:59:38 not sure how much I'm strictly allowed say... 02:04:48 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:06:59 will i be a hacker after sicp ? 02:07:00 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:12:47 -!- nibbles [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/nibbless] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 02:13:13 mogunus pasted "summary" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71146 02:13:34 I just pasted a little repl log that sums up my situation. 02:15:20 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 02:16:51 that's very odd 02:16:58 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:17:05 I've never had issues (on sbcl) using utf-8 in source 02:17:43 unless emacs is lying about the source file being utf-8 02:20:25 mogunus: the output is fine when you evaluate in the repl but mangled when you do so in the file? 02:20:39 fusss: yes 02:20:55 and I'm almost sure that it's utf-8 now (the text) because I looked up the utf-8 character codes 02:21:06 george_ [n=george@189.107.132.25] has joined #lisp 02:21:07 and it matches the tilde n in my file 02:21:26 `UTF-8 character codes' doesn't make sense. 02:22:19 what happens if you save the file into a file with a unicode aware non emacs editor, then load that file into a lisp that isn't running under emacs? 02:22:26 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 02:22:31 mogunus, where are you getting the text of the REPL interaction from? 02:22:44 Riastradh: I'm using http://www.utf8-chartable.de/ the hexl-mode hext code matches the UTF-8 (hex) colums there. 02:22:57 Riastradh: from my slime buffer 02:23:16 In both cases? 02:23:24 Yes, in both cases 02:23:40 When your Lisp system (SBCL?) loads a file, how does it interpret the octets it finds there? 02:24:04 I think utf-8, how do I check? 02:24:23 hmm, I wonder does SBCL honour that OS encoding ENV setting 02:24:38 (can't think of the name of it) 02:24:53 LOCALE and LC_*, rsynnott? 02:25:15 fusss: what is a unicode aware non-emacs editor? 02:25:31 on windows at least, Unipad 02:25:33 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 02:25:45 on Linux kate should work 02:25:50 fusss: okay, thanks... 02:26:09 Riastradh: those are the ones 02:26:17 mogunus, write a simple test case. Create a file with, say, (DEFPARAMETER *FOO* ""), and try writing it out in UTF-8 and ISO-8859-1 separately; then compare the value of *FOO* for the two files. 02:26:18 mogunus: or, surprisingly, notepad! 02:26:30 (Anything on OS X is likely to be Unicode-aware!) 02:26:53 gko [n=gko@59-120-11-28.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:26:55 rsynnott: notepad screws up arabic rendering, big time 02:27:03 anything is pushing it, but certainly anything cocoa-based is likely to be 02:27:08 and anything that is NT-native *has* to be Unicode-aware (the problem is, most apps aren't) 02:27:16 (Anything well-behaved on OS X, anyway.) 02:27:34 (and anything written with the built-in Cocoa text widgets) 02:27:42 weird old app-kit->carbon things are less likely to be 02:28:44 -!- gko [n=gko@59-120-11-28.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:28:44 mogunus: actually, if you open the file in firefox and look at properties, it should tell you the encoding 02:29:30 -!- jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:30:56 rsynnott: ugh, okay, initially when I open the file in firefox it displays gibberish 02:31:06 rsynnott: then I switch to UTF-8 and all is as it should be 02:31:19 ok, that indicates that the file actually is utf-8 02:31:19 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:31:22 probably :) 02:32:36 Riastradh: Okay, I started trying to do the test case. I loaded a file that I created in kate defining a variable with tilde-n in it. 02:32:52 Riastradh: when I just enter the name of the variable, it prints correctly. what should I do now? 02:33:01 Riastradh: this is an SBCL session in a terminal, not slime 02:33:44 (aren't encodings FUN?) 02:34:10 (somewhere, I'm sure someone would enjoy this situation) 02:34:20 I discovered last night that wxwidgets expects utf-32, of all things :) 02:34:33 (all I know is that I need to stick a bunch of utf-8(?) spanish up on the internet, as fast as possible) 02:34:35 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.172.127] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:35:51 rsynnott: just like Python on most installs (aka UCS4) 02:36:03 It just doesn't make any sense to me. The exact same call, from the REPL, works fine. Inside the source file, it gets mangled. 02:36:15 -!- gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-19-75.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:36:47 gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-19-75.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:55 AHA 02:39:07 -!- gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-19-75.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:39:13 (stream-external-format *standard-output*) => :LATIN-1 02:39:14 mogunus: my gues would be that sbcl is deciding to read the source file as something other than utf-8 02:39:17 ah :) 02:39:34 This is obscured in slime, because my slime-net-coding is set to utf-8 02:39:41 gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-19-75.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:43 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:39:49 Adrinael [n=adrinael@2001:14b8:1fe:0:0:0:0:1] has joined #lisp 02:41:15 In a slime session, I can't use that function, it tells me # is not of type SB-KERNEL:ANSI-STREAM. 02:41:38 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@2001:14b8:1fe:0:0:0:0:1] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:41:53 So how do I enforce that *standard-output* be utf-8? From inside sbcl? 02:42:38 mogunus: couldn't you bind it in your i/o calls? 02:42:59 (let ((*standard-output* :utf8)) ) or some such? 02:43:24 there should be a compile time option for sbcl as well 02:47:06 -!- yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has quit ["  ."] 02:50:00 *fusss* wonders if there is even a small, bug ridden, operational semantics description of half of common lisp 02:50:58 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 02:51:48 gonzojive_ [n=red@ip98-169-19-75.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:38 -!- gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-19-75.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:53:57 durka [n=durka@pool-68-163-213-183.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:37 -!- Fare [n=Fare@cpe-72-224-62-193.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:55:24 On second thought that still doesn't make sense. 03:02:32 In both cases what matters is the string returned from my standard-page macro, which is mangled if called from a function, and fine if called from the repl. 03:08:38 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:08:46 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:44 Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 03:12:19 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.64.114] has joined #lisp 03:14:17 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:40 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:14:44 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 03:16:39 Okay. According to http://coding.derkeiler.com/Archive/Lisp/comp.lang.lisp/2007-06/msg00919.html that thread, I changed LC_CTYPE and the SBCL that I start from the command line now correctly reads and writes UTF-8 encoded octets. 03:16:50 yay! 03:16:52 How do I get my normal slime sbcl to pick up on that setting? 03:17:02 you should blog about it for the next person :) 03:17:37 Ugh. I don't have a blog. But honestly I might make one about this so nobody else has to deal. 03:17:44 mogunus: check /q 03:18:35 Oh, hell yeah 03:18:57 Wrong channel. So. Slime picking up on environment vars? 03:19:22 kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-5-52.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:52 slime doesn't pick environment vars, sbcl picks it 03:20:34 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 03:20:35 mogunus: http://svn.bknr.net/svn/trunk/thirdparty/slime/NEWS makes it look like you can specify env variables for sbcl in your .emacs 03:21:04 That's wonderful. 03:21:08 THankyou so much. 03:22:19 though it looks to be a pretty recent addition 03:22:25 tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has joined #lisp 03:22:34 alternatively, you could probably specify the env variable whereever you're starting emacs 03:23:27 or use setenv within emacs 03:23:59 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.64.114] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:26:25 stassats: can I use that from elisp? 03:26:46 yes 03:27:05 see C-h f setenv RET 03:28:08 manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:57 -!- TDT_ [n=TDT@12-216-53-104.client.mchsi.com] has quit ["leaving"] 03:29:40 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:30:49 AH FINALLY 03:30:53 Thankyou so much. 03:31:46 Now I just need to get it to tell firefox to use utf-8 automatically 03:31:57 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.98.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:32:20 type theory is not necessary to grok lisp, right? since lisp is basically untyped lambda calculus. but an optimizing compiler could make use of type inference for performance purposes, right? 03:33:21 Good? 03:34:10 george__ [n=george@189.107.134.63] has joined #lisp 03:34:50 mogunus: it's probably better to set LANG in your init scripts, so firefox, sbcl, etc., will pick it up 03:35:33 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:36:21 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:36:34 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 03:37:39 stassats: problem being that my LANG is english, I don't even speak spanish. 03:38:37 -!- george_ [n=george@189.107.132.25] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:40:05 hah! 03:40:05 spanish can be spoken in utf-8 too 03:41:38 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.134.63] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:43:23 I speak spanish! o/ 03:43:28 at least I like to think I do. 03:43:45 Dude you grew up in PR. 03:43:49 george__ [n=george@189.107.133.197] has joined #lisp 03:44:15 :3333 03:45:28 i'm routinely mistaken for a puerto rican :-) no sir, east african :-D 03:46:07 do east africans share the sheer love of plantains of west africans? 03:46:38 can I say happy thanksgiving to everyone anyway? 03:47:04 I don't mind. 03:47:12 sykopomp: it's only our largest crop/cash cow. second only to high-seas piracy :-) 03:47:16 happy thanksgiving! 03:47:24 Nor do I. I'm actually in new england just finishing thanksgiving. 03:47:34 fusss: plaintains and Arrrr. Best mix ever. 03:47:55 banana rum, a la carribeans. yum! 03:50:49 V-ille, 5 issues as per that email i just sent.. working on those.. the failed tests.. the ensure dirrectories exist is another thing 03:50:57 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:51:12 V-ille, another thing other than pre-existing dirs 03:52:43 cmatei [n=cmatei@85.186.180.45] has joined #lisp 03:52:58 And now firefox automatically displays with the proper encoding 03:53:05 -!- durka [n=durka@pool-68-163-213-183.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:53:07 And all is right with the world. 03:53:37 Ugh, what a thanksgiving day experience... #lisp has been pretty amazing today, I think I've bothered two time zones worth of people with this stupid thing,. 03:54:05 mogunus: felicidades! 03:54:32 -!- topo [n=topo@210.pool85-58-26.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 03:55:05 now test with other browsers: http://browsershots.org/ 03:55:40 Oh, wow, that's really cool. 03:55:52 Once I get it out of the internal network that'll be very useful. 03:56:07 ABCL on IKVM/Mono does the ANSI-TESTS in 5033.553 seconds real time vs 140.745 on JVM .. about to test on win32 now 03:56:55 but i think the win32 will be 200 seconds just from the poor perfomrance of Mono 03:57:21 can't wait to see IE6 play with my standards-compliant CSS and XHTML. 03:57:47 good nite folks! time for beer and tivo :-P 03:57:47 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 2.0.0.18/2008102918]"] 04:09:33 sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has joined #lisp 04:09:42 durka [n=durka@pool-68-163-213-183.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:00 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-134.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 04:13:13 rudi_ [n=rudi@z118l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 04:13:46 dmiles [i=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:14:06 -!- rudi_ is now known as rudi 04:16:32 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:16:44 -!- dmiles is now known as dmiles_afk 04:17:17 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:35:10 Good morning. 04:37:53 mornin' beach 04:38:37 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:02 segv [n=mb@207-172-92-9.c3-0.129-ubr3.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:41:14 -!- manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:41:32 JNelson [n=JNelson@c-76-127-209-26.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:46 is it easy to learn lisp 04:42:26 It roughly the same as learning pretty much anything else. 04:42:29 JNelson: yes 04:43:11 easy as learn as avcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz 04:43:18 JNelson: Are you thinking of trying? 04:43:26 yeah 04:43:39 minion: please tell JNelson about pcl 04:43:40 JNelson: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 04:44:00 -!- durka [n=durka@pool-68-163-213-183.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:45:09 -!- segv [n=mb@207-172-92-9.c3-0.129-ubr3.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 04:45:25 JNelson: What made you consider learning Lisp? 04:46:27 idk randomally i guess 04:46:55 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 04:48:16 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:48:51 JNelson: Lisp is in many ways easier than most languages because both its syntax and its semantics are simpler, and there are fewer arbitrary restrictions than in other languages. It can be hard though for people who already know some lesser languages and who are so used to those restrictions that they can no longer think outside the box. 04:49:15 ok thanks 04:50:58 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 04:51:34 rcy` [n=rcy@shop.freegeekvancouver.org] has joined #lisp 04:52:21 -!- sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has quit [] 04:52:35 sktrdie [n=sktrdie@adsl-75-32-37-220.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:59 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:57:46 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:52 -!- sktrdie [n=sktrdie@adsl-75-32-37-220.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 04:59:05 gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-1d7c297917003129] has joined #lisp 04:59:20 halo 04:59:41 need some help on ucw 04:59:59 ask away 05:00:20 (not that I know anything about it) 05:00:40 i have download ucw-boxset that marco baringer has put together 05:01:13 trying to load it following his instrution sbc --load start.lisp 05:01:19 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:01:21 and i am getting an erro 05:01:26 sori error 05:02:16 0: [RETRY ] Retry performing # on #. 1: [ACCEPT ] Continue, treating # on # as having been successful. 2: [CONTINUE] Ignore and continue with next --eval option. 3: [ABORT ] Skip rest of --eval options. 4: Skip to toplevel RE 05:02:42 gtasso: that's that the error message, but a list of restarts at your disposal. 05:04:24 yes i know just hoping any happen to loading the ucw-boxset and run into similar prob 05:04:42 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-32.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:54 gtasso: it would be easier for them if you gave the error message instead of the list of restarts. 05:05:35 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 05:08:24 -!- holycow is now known as divinebovine 05:08:48 -!- divinebovine is now known as holycow 05:09:31 k here is an error message i get when attempting run the examples "The function IT.BESE.UCW::MAKE-STANDARD-ENVIRONMENT is undefined. 05:10:15 that's much better (I still know nothing about it personally, though). 05:10:31 that helpful :) 05:11:08 dlonki [n=hask@h49n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 05:11:26 what does (if n (...)) mean in common lisp? 05:11:38 like for what is n true and for what is it false? 05:11:43 gtasso: If I found such a message, I would first grep for that function name in the files to see that I really have it. If not, I have an incompatible version. If I do have it, I would verify that the file gets loaded. 05:11:45 evening beach 05:11:51 i dont have access to cl now, im translating to clojure 05:11:56 helly slyrus_ 05:12:14 dlonki: nil is false, anything else is true. 05:12:39 that probably sound right 05:12:54 incompatible version 05:13:56 breach/ 05:14:57 lichtblau: got time for a plexxipus question? 05:15:30 gtasso: i just tried to start the ucw-boxset: it seems it tries to load an old .fasl. ".../.slime/fasl/2007-09-14/sbcl-1.0.22.19-linux-x86/swank-sbcl.fasl" that date is bogus (for me) 05:17:46 k 05:17:58 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@239.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 05:19:06 -!- gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-1d7c297917003129] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 05:22:22 gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7b76a2fc2f2c1e5c] has joined #lisp 05:23:18 hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:29:35 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-195-62.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:30:38 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-195-62.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:52 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@151.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:36:39 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-195-62.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:37:24 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:42:36 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-195-62.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:18 sktrdie [n=sktrdie@adsl-75-32-37-220.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:43:49 -!- JNelson [n=JNelson@c-76-127-209-26.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:44:14 oy. it's been a while. what 05:44:33 's the standard-ish thing to do when has a float they want to parse a la parse-integer? 05:45:43 slyrus_: I think there is a parse-number out there somewhere. Otherwise, read-from-string I guess. 05:45:48 ah, right. parse-number. 05:46:29 that seems like a good candidate for adding to CL3.0, IYAM. 05:46:52 indeed 05:46:55 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:46:57 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 05:48:48 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.129.183] has joined #lisp 05:52:25 of course nobody asked me, but hey... 05:56:03 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.133.159] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:59:22 -!- dlonki [n=hask@h49n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 06:01:36 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-73.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 06:02:39 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1E5B.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:03:11 benny [n=benny@i577A1E5B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:03:27 -!- tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 06:03:53 froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 06:04:13 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:05:22 epoch [n=FAIL@adsl-69-208-73-12.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:06 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 06:18:33 Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 06:19:23 -!- froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:22:19 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-195-62.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 06:34:47 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 06:37:40 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:20 froog____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 06:41:48 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:47:46 -!- gtasso [i=ca502eba@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7b76a2fc2f2c1e5c] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 06:50:58 -!- rudi [n=rudi@z118l194.static.ctm.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:52:55 rudi [n=rudi@z118l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 06:53:54 Can someone point me at a good CSS reference? 06:54:27 -!- froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:54:39 dmiles [i=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:55:18 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:55:38 -!- dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:55:40 -!- dmiles is now known as dmiles_afk 06:56:39 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.168.94] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:02:00 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:04:21 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:06:36 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:07:32 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.243.143] has joined #lisp 07:12:32 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.129.183] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:13:09 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 07:13:45 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-195-62.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:13:52 seb- [n=seb@li30-51.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 07:14:01 How test if a var NOT defined? 07:14:06 (if my_var ???) 07:14:18 boundp 07:15:03 stassats: (if (boundp my_var) etc. ) ? 07:15:10 stassats: thanks if yes 07:15:10 though, special variable can be defined, but nod bound 07:15:15 seb-: yes 07:15:20 stassats: yay! 07:16:32 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:19:43 -!- V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:21:03 -!- gonzojive_ [n=red@ip98-169-19-75.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:21:57 gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-24-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:12 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:24:06 seb-: rather (boundp 'my_var) 07:25:40 -!- rudi [n=rudi@z118l194.static.ctm.net] has quit ["Client exciting"] 07:26:15 -!- facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has quit ["Bye"] 07:30:21 fluke777 [n=tomas@80.188.50.122] has joined #lisp 07:30:44 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 07:30:48 good morning 07:31:18 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:31:18 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 07:33:53 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:35:25 -!- fluke777 [n=tomas@80.188.50.122] has left #lisp 07:36:43 Another meeting to waste my time :( 07:37:31 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-84.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:39:56 -!- m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Excess Flood] 07:40:16 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:43:59 hi 07:44:01 noob here 07:44:30 just out of curiosity, in lisp, can you step through a program and check the logic as the software is running kinda? 07:45:22 -!- tayssir [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:47:42 holycow - it will be implementation dependant but there there is the break command which will through you into the debugger where you can inspect varialbes. Debugging in Lisp is very good 07:48:06 aha 07:48:10 so in common lisp then? 07:48:26 i'll take it from there 07:48:31 good enough thanks! :) 07:54:14 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:58:26 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 08:00:56 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:10:36 there's step, too 08:10:41 clhs step 08:10:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_step.htm 08:10:49 danke, reading 08:10:58 depending on your implementation and compilation options, it may help 08:11:59 cool, googling more 08:14:00 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 08:16:14 http://google-opensource.blogspot.com/2008/11/c-standards-meeting-finalizes-feature.html Perhaps one day someone will gather enough coin to upgrade the lisp standard, or all the nice things we'd like will be simply added in library form and community-standardized... 08:16:39 *sykopomp* hopes no one takes this as trolling. 08:19:55 the great thing about evolving standards is that eventually you've glued on so much crap that you've got an unworkable mess and want to start over 08:19:57 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 08:20:10 http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/chapter16.html 08:20:10 SLIME is now hardly ever displaying hints in the minibuffer after entering the names of functions or macros. anybody know how to fix this bug? 08:20:17 awesome thanks for the heads up on break and step 08:20:20 (that C++ was already at this point is apparently lost on the c++0x group) 08:24:04 lol oh i had no idea: 08:24:09 Oh, and one more thing: It's not quite true that no mass market product uses Lisp. Microsoft's "Bob" environment for naive computer users was developed (and delivered) in Lisp. 08:24:12 really? 08:24:31 can't be, tell me it's not true! 08:25:07 unclean... 08:25:15 http://www.psg.com/~dlamkins/sl/chapter01.html 08:26:09 by the way, can someone explain to me why I keep reading complaints about concurrent programming in CL? Between bordeaux-threads and something like cl-stm, I don't know what else people would want besides automatic threading... 08:27:00 sykopomp: do you have any references to all those complaints? 08:27:10 plage: let me find a couple :) 08:28:34 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:28:43 my theory is that people who talk too much about concurrency are full of crap, and should be ignored 08:28:54 that's possibly true 08:29:20 so in their world, not being erlang is probably grounds for complaining 08:29:22 plage: no links for you, so I guess please ignore what I said. I'll probably come back to it if I come across a link with it and am still bothered. 08:29:45 OK. 08:30:40 eevar2 [n=jalla@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:34:56 sykopomp: i find programmers the most puzzling creatures 08:35:14 so much intelligence and deep brilliance wrapped in a wad of stupid 08:35:16 holycow: I think most of them are insane freaks. Myself included. 08:35:37 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-8-14.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 08:36:09 insane freaks is probably a better term 08:36:46 mostly i don't get programmer complaints. i think they are roughly equivalent to how a child responds to food ... it usually falls in the 'i lked it / i hate it / splat on the wall' categories 08:37:34 never trust a picky eater 08:37:42 lol picky eaters 08:37:43 there we go 08:37:50 haha that sums it up nicely! 08:37:51 hehe 08:38:52 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:40:25 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-32.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:40:33 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@94.157.157.201] has joined #lisp 08:42:27 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.64.114] has joined #lisp 08:43:21 mbtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@94.157.154.95] has joined #lisp 08:43:33 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:44:05 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:44:07 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:44:30 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-32.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:45:01 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 08:49:34 -!- gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-24-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 08:49:51 so does list have as an extensive a library as say python? 08:50:01 set of libraries i mean 08:50:25 holycow: no (assuming you mean Lisp). So what? 08:50:46 nothing, just curious, i'm trying to wrap my tiny brain around this large topic 08:51:29 -!- mbtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@94.157.154.95] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:51:42 mbtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@91.141.218.109] has joined #lisp 08:51:44 topic being lisp i mean 08:52:46 holycow: even basic stuff like sockets and base64 encoding typically requires that you hunt around for a library and its dependencies on the 'net 08:53:09 huh 08:53:55 holycow: hte libraries he's talking about are mostly simplification librarien (usocket, for example), that also happen to let you write cross-implementation code. 08:54:29 i'm not worried or complaining, i will never be a good enough programmer for that to matter 08:54:47 holycow: you're already a better programmer because you admit you suck :P 08:54:59 holycow: anyways. SBCL, for example, has its own implementation of threads and sockets. 08:55:07 just curious from an language evolution perspective. python and perl communities have gobs of these extra resources so i'm curious how come the lisp community doesn't 08:55:23 holycow: because of fragmentation, there isn't one single lisp for a community to rally around 08:55:29 yes right i recognize the partitioning of resources among dialects *nod* 08:55:46 so you see implementation A offer feature X and Y, and implementation B offer feature Y and Z, so if you need X, Y, and Z in one application you're screwed 08:55:46 no one seems to like my solution of exterminating all the non-sbcl implementations 08:55:50 which is fine if you don't mind only being able to run your code on sbcl. But if, say, you want to write a portable application, libraries like bordeaux-threads and usocket let you write your code portably (since they take care of portability) 08:56:13 they also tend to have a nicer, cleaner API, but are obviously less flexible, since they can only support a least-common-denominator 08:56:18 eg: free, native code compiler, runs on windows: pick 2 out of 3 08:56:35 slava: it's mostly clbuild list|egrep 'socket|base64' nowadays 08:56:35 hefner: I'm amazed at that, too. I figure they'll die anyways, or sbcl will be superceded by something better (unlikely, it seems) 08:56:51 lol @ hefner 08:56:52 sbcl has architectural issues, i hope it doesn't end up 'killing' the other impls 08:57:06 clozure cl is pretty cool 08:57:26 ccl is probably the best hope for actually being able to deploy apps without paying for lispworks 08:57:40 well the lowest common denominator thing also seems to come down to fracture in the resources 08:58:04 python having one benevolent dictator seems to have pretty much everything available on all platforms to a comforteable degree 08:58:45 python isn't that interesting, so I don't know why it keeps coming up 08:58:52 well as a noob ( do mostly sys admin so i bash script at most so i'm really not educated in any way on programming ideas ) 08:58:59 hum. I haven't heard much as far as sbcl vs ccl goes 08:59:04 common lisp has captured my mind share 08:59:25 so from that perspective its a bit ahead of the others despite the constant 'i hate cl use something else' posts i see out there 08:59:49 factor would be an interesting alternative if it weren't by and for masochists 08:59:49 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-32.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:00:08 or if it had some kind of programming environment that enabled productivity competitive with, say, C 09:00:11 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 09:00:16 are the different dialects trully THAT different? if one were to become the defacto standar, would it trully matter outside of the specialissts like that company that writes the airline software? 09:01:03 holycow: they're not dialects. They're implementations. They follow the CL standard. Variations happen for undefined behavior, and things that just weren't put in the standard. 09:01:04 hefner: use factor as a Lisp runtime, that should sort out the deployment and IDE issue ;-P 09:01:13 a list of things which happens to be growing :) 09:01:21 i predict that common lisp will be dead in 10 years 09:01:34 there's not enough momentum to move things forward 09:01:36 sykopomp: aha okay 09:01:50 the implementations are stagnant and not enough effort is put into a cohesive, high-quality set of libraries 09:01:50 well momentum is perception 09:01:51 slava: Isn't that what people say every 5 years? 09:01:52 ivansto [i=ivans@93-138-65-241.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:01:54 perception is marketing 09:01:54 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:01:56 one can change that around 09:02:00 slava: I bet that's what somebody said 10 years ago 09:02:18 michaelw: and compared to 10 years ago, CL is less relevant and has lost much of its edge 09:02:18 actually, haven't people been saying that about lisp for the past 50 years? 09:02:32 michaelw: i'm not saying lisp is dying, only CL 09:02:56 I mean, I figure CL will probably be overtaken eventually by a very similar lisp. 09:03:00 slava: I hope that CLOS ideas are carried over into whatever is mainstream then 09:03:12 I just hope CL-like lisp-2s don't die off :( 09:03:17 that would be a sad day. 09:03:43 so why arent people writing libraries for cl for example? that was my original curiosity? 09:03:45 benny` [n=benny@i577A1E5B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 09:03:54 holycow: and the answer is that they are. 09:03:56 simply not enough people hacking away? a numbers game? 09:03:59 holycow: take a look at cliki.net 09:04:02 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A1E5B.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:04:03 holycow: social problems 09:04:09 sharing libraries is not seen as a priority 09:04:17 oh 09:04:20 personally, anything I've needed that isn't in the standard, I've found a pretty nice library for. 09:04:22 i know a few communities like that 09:04:32 everyone who uses CL today went through the two-month process of setting up emacs and hunting down 30 dependencies to get basic stuff like an http client going 09:04:38 and they don't want to make it any easier to new people who come along 09:04:44 unit tests, persistence (several choices, all pretty nice), threading, easy sockets, etc. 09:04:57 slava: lol well as a know nothin, i totally get that 09:05:03 slava: you speak nonsense. 09:05:08 sykopomp: *nod* i get it, adjust my expectations 09:05:17 sykopomp: see if you can refute any of my claims instead of just being a smug lisp weenie(tm) 09:05:31 who admins cliki.net? what framework runs that site? 09:05:33 slava: why do you keep ignoring clbuild? 09:05:46 holycow: drewc, araneida 09:05:56 slava: as michaelw points out, you're ignoring any refutations, and actually starting to become insulting. 09:06:06 well, slava is here selling something 09:06:08 oh, i've never heard of those, googling 09:06:18 slava: You say lisp is dying, I say it's still quite useful, and there's plenty of libraries for it (for anything I've needed, actually) 09:06:20 errr araneida 09:06:22 because clbuild is just a downloader for a dozen or so hard-coded libraries 09:06:39 slava: there you go, ignoring things. 09:06:48 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@94.157.157.201] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:06:49 lispm [n=joswig@e177157248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:07:15 slava: emacs took me all of 5 minutes to install and configure to integrate with slime. Any libraries I need, I either asdf-install, or clbuild them. 09:07:18 oh i see 09:07:32 araneida is a web server. cool. is cliki themable? 09:07:38 slava: Exactly how is someone supposed to "refute" a statement that is vague and only supported by anecdotal opinion? Perhaps you should advance what you think is a "proof" of your thesis, and then maybe someone will bother to try to refute it. 09:07:40 these are all pretty trivial processes, yet you keep blathering on. 09:07:52 i used to be a graphic designer, i wouldn't mind someday taking a shot at a design update without much of a change in formatting 09:07:59 rudi [n=rudi@z118l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:07 holycow: do you know how CSS works?.... 09:08:15 holycow: I request stars, hearts, and rainbows 09:08:16 sykopomp: indeedy 09:08:29 sykopomp: its a lot more difficult than doing the same with java, perl, or python 09:08:32 hefner: lol 09:08:32 holycow: web frameworks usually generate heavily-tagged html, which graphic designers are then expected to write style sheets for. 09:08:44 *holycow* puts down *pony* on the todo list 09:09:02 sykopomp: yeah i know, i'm in #openacs tangentially 09:09:05 slava: I don't see how that works. I've set up eclipse in the past, and I can assure you that was most certainly not my experience with java 09:09:13 sykopomp: there are too many distinct packages one has to download and install to get a usable development environment 09:09:27 slava: no. There are not. 09:09:31 sykopomp: eclipse is lightyears ahead of emacs/slime for editing capability 09:09:42 slava: now you're just trolling. 09:09:42 so guys, would something like cpan from perl help in giving access to programmers to cl libraries? 09:10:06 sykopomp: trolling? look at eclipse's refactoring and code navigation support one day 09:10:10 slava: you download an implementation, you download slime, you download emacs, you write 3 lines into .emacs, you start up emacs and fire up slime 09:10:25 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 09:10:26 slava: I have. It's really cute that it lets you move methods up. Expert refactoring! 09:10:32 hello 09:11:01 sykopomp: you forgot about downloading cl-build, and that's already 4 packages to download, and a config file to edit 09:11:05 so any comments on setting up something like cpan form cl? would anyone be interested in something like that? 09:11:13 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:19 slava: it's a competence test 09:11:26 slava: admitedy though, that can be automated 09:11:30 lispm: see? that's the smug lisp weenie(tm) attitude 09:11:50 holycow: it would be definitely helpful for beginners 09:11:51 instead of admitting our software sucks, let's pretend to be elitist 09:11:52 slava: oh good lord. Can you IMAGINE downloading 4 things to set up a full-fledged IDE? 09:11:58 we just finished doing something similar for openacs on debian to make it a two command deployment 09:12:06 sykopomp: no I can't; eclipse and netbeans are a single download and you can start writing web apps in 5 mins 09:12:07 -!- mbtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@91.141.218.109] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:12:13 slava: that's the social problem of yours mostly 09:12:26 yes but you could automate that 09:12:28 slava...if you have at least 2GB of ram heh 09:12:29 all I see that LOTS of people like SLIME 09:12:29 slava: oh, I didn't know eclipse carried around its own virtual machine. 09:12:37 clojure supports it 09:12:47 there is even an ocaml version of SLIME 09:12:51 called SOLID 09:12:56 slava: and eclipse is a joke as an environment, when compared to SLIME, to be completely honest :) 09:12:56 Perhaps we could collectively decide that the troll has had enough of a meal for tonight? 09:13:08 then again. Java is a joke as a language, compared to lisp. 09:13:17 just because its not automated doesn't really make that an insurmountable objection. its inconveninet for dumbasses like me, gluing it together with a metapackage taht does it for you if you want solves the problem for all that want that though 09:13:42 sykopomp: Java and Lisp are very different 09:13:45 sykopomp: i'm not defending java the language, just saying they have their act together as far as making it easy to get started 09:14:00 and lisp needs that to remain competitive 09:14:15 slava: talk and little action of yours 09:14:19 -!- ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-141-18-97.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:14:21 slava: Lisp doesn't have Sun funding it, but it does have a lot of pretty dedicated, clever individuals. 09:14:25 commune lisp! 09:14:31 slava: i can't say i agree because i don't really know as a noob, but that sort of thing is "good marketing" yes 09:14:39 slava: what were your contributions lately, besides talking bad about Lisp? 09:14:54 lispm: I have no vested interest in lisp's success, you do 09:15:11 slava solves this problem in factorland by rolling everything everyone ever wrote into the factor git repo 09:15:35 slava: I see 09:15:48 holycow: anyways. Setting up an environment is fairly easy. Depending on your platform, there's other stuff that makes it nicer, like lisp-in-a-box. 09:15:59 hefner: you'll notice python and java also ship with a decent standard library 09:16:01 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:16:02 slava: that makes me a smug Lisp weenie 09:16:11 hefner: even plt scheme 09:16:23 personally, I really enjoy the horrible, pain-inducing, torturous process of writing a single line into my package manager and writing 3 lines into my .emacs. 09:16:28 slava: then use plt scheme 09:16:34 sykopomp: is there a document that organizes the diferent environment components into vertical stacks so i can visualize it? 09:16:36 slava: do you use plt scheme? 09:16:40 lispm: no 09:16:45 slava: ah 09:16:45 holycow: haha what 09:17:05 slava: I have written commercial software in Scheme 09:17:05 well i'm looking at my debian/ubuntu repositories, and there is lisp up the ying yang in there 09:17:12 holycow: you need the language implementation, emacs, and slime, which is a plugin for emacs 09:17:37 holycow: clbuild has pretty easy set-up and usage instructions on its site. It's trivial to set up. 09:17:39 as a noob i don't know whats what, not really an issue, just curious if there is a summary doc that kinda goes, here are your compiles for these implementations, and here are some permutations to choose from 09:17:50 sykopomp: re usocket, see iolib for non least-common-denominator approach\ 09:17:58 I feel I've stepped into a parallel universe here. #lisp already has this "what to do about libraries" argument every other day 09:18:10 luis: oh yes, there's iolib. I was just using usocket as an example. 09:18:14 oh sorry, didn't mean to start that 09:18:17 i was just curious 09:18:23 hefner: so clearly its something people care about 09:18:24 no, I don't think you did, but slave meant to 09:18:25 I wonder why 09:18:27 thanks for all the info by the way, very much appreciated 09:18:31 "slave"? "slava" 09:18:50 I was using ASDF lately for McCLIM and though I don't like it that much, I have to say it worked for my purpose 09:18:53 sykopomp: clbuild eh? 09:18:58 *hmmm* k googling 09:19:01 lispm: asdf or mcclim? =p 09:19:08 hefner: both 09:19:45 holycow: first hit on google. All the setup is explained there. 09:20:30 k. good enough, thank you. 09:20:33 hefner: I like McCLIM more than ASDF, if that was the question 09:20:42 kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6e48e2d63df2bcef] has joined #lisp 09:20:43 holycow: good luck. I'm gonna crash :) 09:20:51 happy snow lispers 09:21:28 kiuma: noooo! Snooow :( 09:21:39 kiuma: it was so nice out lately. You just had to ruin it. 09:21:57 nite, thx 09:23:11 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:25:01 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 09:25:52 -!- ivansto [i=ivans@93-138-65-241.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:28:35 rsynnott: http://myblog.rsynnott.com/2008/11/fun-with-cffi-and-wxwindowswxwidgets.html 09:28:38 rsynnott: cool 09:29:06 sykopomp: in Italy at least (Milan) 09:30:08 as an aside: http://flickr.com/photos/ianhampton/67566207/sizes/o/ 09:30:10 that makes a fantastic wallpaper 09:32:04 *holycow* wonders about making a screensaver app in lisp now 09:32:05 lol 09:32:42 *luis* points housel at cl-opengl 09:32:46 ahrg 09:33:07 minion: tell holycow about cl-opengl 09:33:08 holycow: please look at cl-opengl: cl-opengl is a set of CFFI bindings to the OpenGL, GLU and GLUT APIs. http://www.cliki.net/cl-opengl 09:33:33 oh interesting 09:33:34 danke 09:33:58 holycow: you can use clbuild install cl-opengl 09:34:19 -!- rudi [n=rudi@z118l194.static.ctm.net] has left #lisp 09:34:21 oh so clbuild does more than just the basics? 09:34:24 okay thats cool actually 09:34:33 holycow: but if you anyone asks, tell them it was really hard and that you had to hunt dependencies down 09:34:45 heh 09:34:46 we like to keep it l33t 09:35:33 *hefner* thinks of i0l1b 09:40:41 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:41:35 I know CL is doomed, because it took me at least 180 seconds to install the dependencies for iolib. 09:42:26 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:42:27 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:46:38 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:53:01 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:53:52 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177157248.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:54:27 lispm [n=joswig@e177122158.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:54:30 flowingboy [n=chatzill@nat/yahoo/x-20f77564610c6ad6] has joined #lisp 09:54:32 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:55:51 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2D664.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:56:33 the Eclipse IDE indeed is quite ahead of SLIME when it comes to refactoring and code browsing. some of the infrastructure for that is harder to port from Java to Lisp. the reader somewhat ruins the day. 09:58:09 slava: also, there are boxed lisp environments which are ready to run after download: ReadyLisp and Cusp come to mind. There's also LispBox, but I've never used it myself. 09:59:06 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E4607B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:45 brill [n=brill@0x57386060.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:04:32 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CCEE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:44 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:05:01 mgr_ [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 10:05:12 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:05:16 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["leaving"] 10:05:26 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:06:05 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 10:06:11 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 10:08:35 p_l_ [n=plasek@pp82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:08:47 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 10:09:18 -!- flowingboy [n=chatzill@nat/yahoo/x-20f77564610c6ad6] has left #lisp 10:09:34 hello 10:10:00 hello fe[nl]ix 10:10:07 hi spiaggia :) 10:10:41 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2EF37.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:12:05 -!- Lillin^ [n=lillin@211.201.172.41] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:14:17 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:14:54 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 10:14:56 michealw: eclipse works mostly with dead static artifacts 10:15:05 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:15:25 code browsing can be made better, true 10:16:00 but the value of refactoring is especially there for languages with lots of environments where you need to move things in and out of scope 10:16:32 plus in Lisp code generation is much easier, which lessens the need for refactoring 10:17:18 Java code looks like object spaghetti 10:17:39 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E4607B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:17:46 why is a java source file a 'dead static artifact'? 10:17:48 lispm: the minimal refactoring support in redshank is already a pain because it is frobbing source code on a per-char basis :( (there is no Emacs infrastructure in place to do that on an higher-level) 10:17:57 its no different from a lisp source file being edited in slime 10:18:02 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:18:08 slava: REPL 10:18:15 eclipse has a java repl 10:18:39 but in practice it does not work 10:18:42 common lisp's repl is not very good anyway, for two reasons 10:18:53 slava: Common Lisp is a language 10:18:57 if you redefine a function, there is no garantee that callers are updated (depending on optimization settings) 10:19:17 and if you load a source file, remove a function or method from it, and load it again, the function or method remains in your image 10:19:22 the system doesn't detect that its gone from the file 10:19:25 so don't tell the compiler to inline your functions? 10:19:37 slava: undefine a function 10:19:40 tic: even if you redefine an inline function there's no technical reason a compiler cannot update callers 10:19:58 slava: I use redefintion of functions all the time 10:20:00 ditto with undefining functions that disappear from source files 10:20:06 slava: I don't see why a CL implementation cannot provide this 10:20:15 michaelw: I don't either, but the fact is they don't provide it 10:20:25 slava: Lisp is not about static source files 10:20:25 maybe because it's a non-issue in practice? 10:20:40 slava: Lisp is about development with a live application 10:20:43 slava: but then it's not a language issue, but an implementation issue 10:20:57 michaelw: what good is a language without an implementation? 10:21:10 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:21:14 lispm: you can stop regurgitating dynamic language fanboy blogs right about now 10:21:17 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has quit ["leaving"] 10:21:21 slava: math is quite useful, even without an implementation :) 10:21:36 slava: you are trolling 10:21:44 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 10:21:57 lispm: the lack of an audit trail and lack of reproduciblity with image-based systems is a major problem in practice 10:22:29 slava: sure, on the opposite it also can be a major opportunity for incremental development 10:22:35 it has both sides 10:22:35 lispm: let's take a concrete example: pulling out a couple of expressions into a top-level function. I find this quite useful, in particular if the new function's free variables are analyzed and put as it's arguments. how would you approach an implementation? 10:22:39 you don't have to give up incremental development 10:22:58 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 10:23:01 in fact if redefinition worked 100% of the time you'd have better interactive development 10:23:04 but you'll get the edit-compile-test cycle instead. 10:23:07 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0FF0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:23:26 the problem is even more acute with macros 10:23:33 if you redefine a macro you have to reload every source file that calls it 10:23:36 the beauty of image-based development is that you can mold it incrementally with less ... threshold(?) (can't find the word) 10:23:42 at least in every CL implementation I know of 10:24:05 -!- kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6e48e2d63df2bcef] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:24:17 tic: factor supports what slava describes, and still you get interactive development 10:24:20 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 10:24:34 michaelw, nice. 10:25:02 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 10:25:09 slava: this can also be an advantage, because if your new macro is buggy it could pull the rug from under your feet 10:26:35 michealw: if I create a function from expressions, I most of the time restructing the stuff in so many ways that name replacement is not that useful for me 10:26:56 maybe you can parse the sentence 10:26:58 :-( 10:28:19 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 10:29:06 kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has joined #lisp 10:30:28 lispm: nevermind the usefulness (it is for me), I want to get at the problems to solve to support such things 10:31:13 but that is tough with a language like Common Lisp 10:31:47 it is also tough with normal text editors, where you can have source code that is incomplete or wrong 10:32:21 Eclipse can do these things 10:32:30 with Common Lisp? 10:32:37 with Java 10:32:44 Java is not Common Lisp 10:32:55 Java has no macros, no readmacros, .. 10:33:45 michealw: do you have some feedback from users of your editor extensions? 10:33:46 so? I still want this type of support for Lisp 10:33:59 michealw: I want my car to fly 10:34:11 lispm: yes, so far it's quite positive 10:34:22 I got a feature request just this morning 10:34:22 michaelw, for Eclipse? 10:34:43 no, I mean what are they using? what kind of features do they like and want? 10:35:46 I don't doubt that you got positive response ;-) 10:38:38 lispm: oh, they are mostly not telling unfortunately; things I remember are redshank-eval-whenify-form, redshank-condify-form, and most of the skeletons 10:39:34 michealw: why not ask users and make a paper for the next ILC ? ;-) 10:40:25 spiaggia, vim mode for climacs starts to sound tempting. 10:40:54 ths_ [n=ths@p549AF576.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:42:57 -!- ths [n=ths@X603a.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:43:21 tic: go right ahead! 10:45:28 splittist [n=splittis@26-85.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 10:45:32 morning 10:45:43 hello splittist 10:46:11 splittist: I heard something about Switzerland and the Shengen yesterday. When is that going to be effective? 10:47:55 spiaggia: No idea. (Indeed, only a fuzzy idea what you're talking about.) 10:48:27 spiaggia, now, I'd say 10:48:28 Oh, sorry. It's off-topic anyway. Doesn't matter. 10:48:36 lispm: thanks! 10:49:05 -!- p_l [n=pl@62.6.163.133] has quit ["leaving"] 10:49:16 12. december no controls 10:49:32 -!- p_l_ is now known as p_l 10:49:44 end of march: no controls in flight traffic 10:50:18 lispm: so, was your point that you don't need any refactoring support for CL beyond the standard s-expression movement/editing commands? 10:50:21 -!- anuj [n=anuj@210.212.55.3] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:51:59 clhs defpackage 10:51:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm 10:52:08 michealw: a) I don't need them too much personally b) I think to it is a tough problem c) i want a user friendly user interface d) i'm willing to try out any progress made 10:52:10 cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:52:59 for example if I port a DW app to CLIM, I'd use the refactoring tool in Zmacs 10:54:26 hmm, that would mean that I used tools that do a one time larger code transformation 10:55:02 an example 10:55:29 I have a CLOS method with several parameters, and I change for two parameters the classes 10:55:38 now I want the code to adapt 10:55:51 the body of the code should change 10:56:12 WITH-ACCESSORS, WITH-SLOTS, SLOT-VALUE, accessors, ... 10:56:32 MAKE-INSTANCE, etc. 10:57:35 michealw: you are thinking of these kinds of refactorings, right? 10:58:07 that's also part of it, yes. 10:59:32 my problem with that is that I think that it is really hard in Common Lisp to get that working in a useful way 11:00:29 I would try to use that and see if it works for me, no doubt 11:01:05 if you look at InterLisp-D, they were on that side of editing: structure editor and DWIM 11:01:46 but it got also some remarks about how useful DWIM really was and was really a distraction 11:01:50 iirc, I looked at ZMACS code; it is not pretty... 11:02:10 you wrote some code and DWIM did spell checking on it 11:02:33 lispm: that's perhaps an UI issue 11:02:52 well, the UI is important 11:04:02 on an unrelated note, Polzer has taken over Weblocks? 11:04:03 michealw: there was lots of hacking with Zmacs in these directions 11:05:07 lispm: for example, Zmacs GRINDing features ruthlessly delete comments, etc., I'd rather have them preserved as much as possible 11:05:16 right 11:06:55 InterLisp-D didn't have that problem, most of the time 11:07:34 which Lisp editor does grinding nowadays? 11:08:06 Perhaps the incremental parser of Climacs could be a basis for a better refactoring tool for CL. 11:08:12 topo [n=topo@210.pool85-58-26.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 11:08:13 'grinding' is the relayout of whole Lisp code 11:09:41 spiaggia: get michealw to work on CLIMACS! 11:10:01 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:10:08 *cough* spamd on common-lisp.net was hung, no mail was delivered. if you've enjoyed the silence, it is over now. 11:10:43 michealw: did you alread look at climacs? 11:12:47 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 11:18:53 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [No route to host] 11:18:54 -!- _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:23:05 lispm: yes, I am not yet ready to replace emacs with it, and I'd rather hack on something which makes my life better 11:23:33 -!- mgr_ [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit ["leaving"] 11:24:16 vasa [n=vasa@mm-186-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 11:28:09 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:29:14 which library is the best for matrix manipulation? 11:35:02 vasa: there's clem, but I haven't used it 11:35:04 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:35:12 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:35:18 http://cyrusharmon.org/projects?project=clem 11:36:02 for fast math, you could also try to get the BLAS/LAPACK/ATLAS ffi code from matlisp 11:39:08 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 11:39:33 kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a02cfbea01cba7a1] has joined #lisp 11:39:38 re 11:42:06 lispm: It looks like I shall have to find someone else. 11:42:15 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E4607B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:35 user___ [n=user@p5492634F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:44:54 hello, in clsql one can write statements such as (select [first-name :from [employee] etc. after you did ENABLE-SQL-READER-SYNTAX. It works fine for me on the REPL, but not when asdf-loading a file. 11:45:01 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4607B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:45:18 user pasted " " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71155 11:45:30 user___: do you have (enable-sql-reader-syntax) at the top of your source file that uses the syntax? 11:46:01 blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.6.223] has joined #lisp 11:46:55 H4ns: yes 11:47:31 spiaggia: don't give up ;-) 11:47:36 user___: it works only if you C-c C-k, or inside asdf 11:47:46 lispm: of course I won't. 11:48:23 user___: but consider to use the normal syntax 11:50:35 user___: http://common-lisp.net/websvn/filedetails.php?repname=claw&path=%2Ftrunk%2Fmain%2Fclaw-demo%2Fsrc%2Fbackend%2Fdao.lisp&rev=0&sc=0 for a samlpe (look that I've extended clsql) 11:50:46 -!- topo [n=topo@210.pool85-58-26.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 11:51:45 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4607B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:54:41 Eleanore [n=a@ip21293.lbinternet.se] has joined #lisp 11:55:24 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-193.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:57:03 what would be the best way to go about doing some audio processing with lisp on linux. i want to read from the mic and filter the sound a bit before outputing it to the soundcard 11:57:49 msingh: (with-open-file (audio "/dev/dsp" :direction :input :external-format '(unsigned-byte 16)) (process-audio-stream audio)) 11:57:59 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 11:58:00 matimago: i'll start with that :) 11:58:13 Or some other /dev device depending on your drivers. 11:58:23 ok 11:58:23 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:58:42 matimago: why (unsigned-byte 16) instead of (unsigned-byte 8) ? 11:59:05 dsp usually works with 16-bit samples. But some other audio device indeed use 8-bit bytes. 11:59:49 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 12:00:35 does CL support (unsigned-byte 13) or so? 12:00:41 thanks 12:00:44 Well, I'm wrong here, it seems /dev/dsp is 8 bit unsigned, 8kHz; there would be a /dev/dspW 16 bit signed little endian, 8kHz, and /dev/audio is mu-Law, 8kHz. 12:00:49 ecraven: yes. 12:00:59 ecraven: but it won't be portable across CL implementations. 12:01:14 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E4607B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:01:44 -!- lilac [n=tla@kde/lilachaze] has left #lisp 12:03:59 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 12:05:35 singh: see Common Lisp Music for some inspiration: 'Common Lisp Music is a music synthesis and signal processing package' 12:06:00 lispm: thanks! 12:06:31 also see Audacity, which is an app scriptable in a Lisp dialect 12:07:33 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.129.212] has joined #lisp 12:08:15 lispm: I think refactoring support is very well possible, it's just work. In the Slime talk I'll give at Wednesday, I'll also present areas of improvements, so I can perhaps create some incentive for funding from people comming using Lisp in industry. 12:08:32 for more inspiration see the work by David McClain: http://xach.livejournal.com/199225.html 12:09:37 tcr: I'm all for it, make sure you have slides you can post ;-) 12:09:58 lispm: that looks useful, cheers mate :) 12:11:14 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 12:11:30 David had demonstrated his Siglab and I can remember that there is some code floating around for LispWorks 12:13:45 see also gmane.lisp.ccrma.general for a newsgroup/mailing list for lots of people using Lisp for music and sound 12:15:05 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.243.143] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:16:11 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:12 Beeet [n=stathis@wifi139-50.pubaccess.auth.gr] has joined #lisp 12:17:34 If you were attending my talk about Slime on Wednesday, what stuff would you like to be covered? 12:18:05 msingh: for even more inspiration, see http://www.cliki.net/Music 12:18:07 I'd like to collect actual problem cases; stuff that you discovered on accident, and wished you knew before 12:18:27 tcr: who-calls and friends is very nice 12:19:13 blitz_: Indeed. Did you know that you can use C-c C-k in an Xref buffer to recompile all the stuff that's presented there? So you can use who-macroexpands, then use C-c C-k in the Xref buffer to recompile (hopefully) all the locations that the macro you just changed is used. 12:19:24 tcr: is it an introductory thing? 12:19:39 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 12:19:51 or for people who already use slime but may or may not know all the tricks 12:20:04 (I didn't know the trick you just mentioned, fir instance :) ) 12:21:52 rsynnott: It's a kitchen sink thing. 12:22:36 phao [n=phao@20158145171.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 12:22:52 is it scheme lisp? 12:23:05 is it gavino? 12:23:41 mega1 [n=mega@pool-04a89.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 12:25:29 phao: what are you trying to ask? 12:26:01 phao: if your question is "Is Scheme a kind of Lisp", I'll answer it for you when you tell me what you mean by "Scheme" and "Lisp". 12:26:06 minion: chant to phao 12:26:07 phao: MORE INSPIRATION 12:26:56 heheh 12:27:22 I've read that lisp is a family of programming languages, I tried to ask if scheme is part of that family. 12:27:50 phao: If you tell me what you think characterizes that family, I'll tell you whether Scheme is part of it. 12:27:55 Depending on context, yes and no. 12:28:48 I've read that on wikipedia, there it says: "Lisp (or LISP) is a family of computer programming languages with a long history and a distinctive, fully parenthesized syntax." 12:29:20 phao: Scheme has parenthesis as well, so if that's what Lisp is known for, then Scheme is part of it. 12:29:21 phao: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/Lambda.html 12:29:40 phao: perhaps it would be easier if you tell us *why* you are asking this question. 12:31:06 phao: I personally think the question is meaningless because we don't have an official, nor even a well-agreed-upon definition of "Lisp". 12:31:13 hmm 12:31:20 so you're right spiaggia, it's meaningless 12:31:22 -!- user___ [n=user@p5492634F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:31:28 phao: plus, I don't see what I would do with an answer to the question, be it "yes" or "no". 12:31:37 That is the best answer I could have, I think 12:31:44 *phao* stops worrying about the wrong thing 12:36:02 the LISP one is from before the invention of lower case letters 12:36:03 :) 12:36:42 tcr: hey, I didn't know that C-c C-k xref trick at all 12:37:38 tcr: do you need help creating a blog? :) 12:38:53 something is wrong with my keyboard, if I look at the keys, they are all uppercase, pressing them displays lower case letters 12:39:35 lispm: press caps lock 12:39:47 tcr: an article or blog post with that sort of thing in it would be very useful, yep 12:40:09 lispm: some very early typewriters had separate keys for the lower case letters :) 12:42:15 -!- froog____ is now known as froog 12:42:28 luis: It's in the makes, http://trittweiler.blogspot.com. 12:43:40 *luis* looks forward to that 12:43:41 I wouldn't mind some stylish design! 12:45:19 tcr: I have a plan for you then: (1) make it about Ruby (2) wait for the designers (3) pick (4) start blogging about Lisp 12:45:38 -!- Beeet [n=stathis@wifi139-50.pubaccess.auth.gr] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:45:53 huh? 12:46:00 ruby bloggers get free design work? 12:46:05 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 12:46:18 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 12:46:20 *rsynnott* tends to read blogs more for the content than the stunning visuals, anyway 12:46:27 Hamburg again. 12:46:31 rsynnott: maybe, have you looked at any Ruby project page? 12:46:32 durka [n=durka@pool-68-163-213-183.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:52 Xof: There's more. You can also use C-c C-c in sldb to recompile the function belonging to a frame. In particular, if a frame does not have enough information, you can use C-u C-c C-c to recompile it with maximum debug, then restarting the computation (either from a frame that's restartable, or from the retry restart that Slime provides.) 12:47:15 _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 12:47:16 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 12:47:29 luis: since they have an ugly language, they must have something beautiful 12:47:34 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:47:43 Restartable frames have their own face, in my setup restartable frames are shown in some greenish color. 12:47:51 tcr: almost seems time for a Slime cookbook. 12:48:50 I haven't come around updating the Slime manual with many stuff that I hacked in. The talk I give is supposed to make me remember all my hacks. 12:48:57 someone definitely needs to document this stuff 12:49:10 stassats`: how do you explain the COBOL programmers, then? 12:49:13 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:49:27 you don't see too many pretty cobol websites 12:49:27 rsynnott: it's unexplainable 12:49:38 tcr: a blog with posts about emacs and common lisp... bookmarked it 12:49:59 rsynnott: COBOL programmers don't make websites about COBOL 12:50:15 they are too busy making that emulated card puncher work 12:50:34 (though, terrifyingly, Fujitsu markets its COBOL for .NET as being suitable for making websites with ASP.NET) 12:51:16 phao: re your question about scheme, one way to see it is whether there is some non empty subset common to two languages such as R5RS scheme and Common Lisp. For example, if you type (+ 1 2) at the REPL of a scheme implementation and at that of a CL one, you get about the same result ("3" is printed, amongst other things). 12:51:38 *p_l* has got a COBOL licence for Alpha, but not enough memory to bother with getting disksets 12:51:42 phao: but the problem with this question is that you can have programs that are valid input for very different programming languages. 12:52:27 they both have somewhat common origin, is the most you can really say about them 12:53:06 pjb pasted "happy" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71161 12:53:17 (though wasn't lexical scoping largely a scheme thing pre CL?) 12:53:30 phao: for example, this "happy" program can be run/compiled with C, sh, csh, and Fortran. 12:53:54 phao: would that mean that C, sh, csh are some kind of Fortran? 12:53:56 there was a polyglot program which compiled on a lot of things, as well as it's source being a DOS x86 executable 12:54:08 michaelw: Are you there? 12:54:13 matimago: I wouldn't run random snippets from you. :) 12:54:16 matimago, since spiaggia told me that there wasn't any official thing saying what is lisp, I saw how meaningless my question was. 12:54:36 phao: the meaningless of the question is more fundamental. 12:54:49 s/meaningless/meaninglessness/ 12:54:54 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:54:59 matimago: urgh 12:55:07 ;-) 12:55:21 heheeh 12:55:22 (though it's not VALID C, even if most compilers will accept it 12:55:37 It compiles and runs ok. 12:56:02 no return type on main, though, as is, I'm pretty sure, required by ANSI C 12:56:11 jgracin [n=jgracin@78-1-134-59.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:56:36 warnings: happy-c.c:2: warning: incompatible implicit declaration of built-in function 'printf'; output: (C) Happy New Year! 12:56:37 rsynnott: K&R C 12:57:16 matimago: that's lack on the appropriate include 12:57:20 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:37 (and C being frighteningly liberal about types :) ) 12:58:32 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 12:58:48 Well, it's hard to type an assembler... 13:00:37 *rsynnott* was recently using C for the first time since I finished college; I'd forgotten how annoying it could be 13:02:03 mainly it's just extremely tedious 13:02:22 it's worth using c++ if only to get basic things like lists and vectors 13:02:37 locklace, haha, no, it doesn't worth using C++ 13:03:14 masm [n=masm@213.22.190.91] has joined #lisp 13:03:15 phao: yeah, it is, because it takes less work to implement subsets of lisp with it 13:03:17 GDB seemed like a great luxury when I started using GCC in the late 90s, but now it's incredibly frustrating 13:04:52 in the plan 9 operating system there is a great debugger 13:05:02 called acid, IMO it's way better than GDB 13:05:16 Solaris mdb seems interesting too 13:06:05 but acid gets a lot of power from it's scripting 13:07:27 You gotta have a look at symbolic's C programming environment. 13:07:30 there is a video of a guy talking about it in a plan 9 workshop 13:07:55 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 13:08:09 Another meeting... 13:08:11 tcr: I think I still got the files, but I never got it work reliably 13:08:28 Not to mention that Genera didn't like meeting a tiling WM 13:09:11 p_l: I haven't ever run it myself, I just read their documentation about it. (I don't want to promote this, but it's findable in the intertubes.) 13:10:53 tcr: Yes, it is findable, but you need Linux/x86-64, remember how to setup NFS (v2 IIRC) and make sure nothing will try to resize Genera's window 13:11:03 basically, lot of work 13:11:20 p_l: about an hour if you follow my how-to 13:11:43 H4ns: the last part was tricky 13:11:54 I mean, the one about making sure nothing resizes the window 13:12:04 I ended up running it inside Xnest 13:12:18 p_l: I meant the documentation 13:12:26 p_l: ah, ok. 13:12:29 *cmm* contemplates firing up his Open Genera VM for the first time in half a year... 13:13:23 *H4ns* installed ubuntu and genera on an unused box on tuesday and made it boot directly into genera. kind of cute. 13:13:27 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:13:29 setf [i=8f5d3597@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d7ec34e28a143e86] has joined #lisp 13:13:55 H4ns: is this how-to on your blog? 13:14:06 well, it's sort-of multiuser. and does networking 13:14:08 Why load ubuntu on it? it's overkill 13:14:22 p_l: disk space is cheap 13:14:24 stassats`: i've updated it and will post next week. 13:14:46 H4ns: ok. 13:14:52 cmm: That's not an excuse to waste cycles for *non-productive* code 13:15:03 cpu is cheap as well 13:15:03 p_l: i am not interested in linux at all, so i wanted something that i can install without any hassles. ubuntu is fine for that. 13:15:18 p_l: it is an excuse. i don't want to waste any of my own time on linux. 13:15:29 H4ns: Well, in this case, yes. 13:15:35 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 13:16:21 p_l: what cycles? 13:16:51 H4ns: are you doing something on that genera box? 13:16:52 then again, I may not know what I'm talking about here, my VM is a rather bare Debian 13:17:02 cmm: If I wanted to make a standalone PC into a LispM using OpenGenera and Linux, I'd not waste my time on all those blings that are in Ubuntu 13:17:06 stassats`: if "play" counts as "do", thenyes. 13:17:30 p_l: what else would he use? 13:17:40 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:17:51 p_l: the blings come with the desktop environment. I just run the Genera as the only window in the X session (no window manager at all) 13:17:59 H4ns: ok, i meant "beside playing" 13:18:06 presumably that would work in Ubuntu too 13:18:12 I saw that there is an Alpha emulator for Windows machines 13:18:25 rsynnott: HAL, *Kit and various other apps that run for nothing 13:18:31 emulates the Alpha processor on Windows /x86 13:18:48 lispm: There was a commercial one and there is a new, open source one that emulates ES40 13:18:52 p_l: linux OS overhead is presumably marginal 13:19:18 is distribution of opengenera by random people allowed? 13:19:24 if so, a VMWare image would be cool 13:19:51 I think the commercial one now has a 'personal edition' 13:19:52 rsynnott: Linux's overhead yes. Not the overhead of ubantoshit running on it. You don't really need HAL, ConsoleKit and god knows what else just to run X11 and OpenGenera 13:20:07 lispm: The personal edition was afaik very limited 13:20:19 it is true that ubuntu loads rather much services. If you'd run the server install, it would be fair 13:20:39 http://www.emulatorsinternational.com/en/personalalpha.htm 13:20:49 p_l: you don't need to care about it if it's just running 13:20:51 in all honousty, if you only need a bare system, a gentoo system might be one of the cleanest options 13:20:52 lismp: I've got a real alpha, but I don't have enough memory in it to run OG. Plus I have VMS on it 13:21:04 arg ;-) 13:21:09 s/oust/est/ 13:21:23 those services won't actually be doing anything, most of the time 13:21:29 *H4ns* would really like to get his hands on vax lisp some time. 13:21:30 if Open Genera would be open sourced (full or partly), which license should it have? 13:21:38 H4ns: i think i have a tape somewhere 13:21:40 lispm: mit 13:21:48 GPL? 13:21:51 manuel_: uh, please share 13:21:53 H4ns: but where is the big question 13:22:00 lispm: see clisp controversy 13:22:02 lispm: not gpl, please. 13:22:07 why not? 13:22:08 H4ns: the next question is that i have given all my vaxes with DLT away 13:22:17 learn a healthy distrust and fear of GPL :) 13:22:22 ccl is lgpl 13:22:24 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.190.91] has left #lisp 13:22:35 H4ns: oh no actually bertram had vaxlisp :/ 13:22:37 lispm: because i do not write software that is gpl'ed and i will not do so in the future. 13:22:41 lgpl is all right, IMHO 13:22:42 manuel_: *seufz* 13:22:45 lgpl? 13:22:56 GPL is very good a license, to promote more free software. 13:23:15 good afternoon 13:23:24 Thanks to GPL, programmers can sue companies who distribute their software without providing the sources. 13:23:26 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has joined #lisp 13:23:28 Try that with BSD! 13:23:29 matimago: I consider GPL to be less "free as in freedom" than most licenses 13:23:31 H4ns: out of pure interest: what is your major concern about it? 13:23:34 GPL is very confusing when trying to apply it to lisp libraries. 13:23:41 matimago: great! now we can sue, this is surely progress! 13:23:50 p_l: it is really not much to ask to give the sources of what you take! 13:23:52 H4ns: LMAO 13:24:09 matimago: But not to force everyone to release their stuff 13:24:20 That's why I'm okay with LGPL, but not as much with GPL 13:24:35 p_l: we don't force anybody to use GPL software either! 13:24:43 lispm: GPL would mean that its code can't be used in most existing contemporary Lisp code. 13:24:50 I haven't fought it out in my head just yet. I think I prefer the BSD-style license. Yet I'd really like to see where my software would be going to be used (if ever), before I release it for that reason (as in: I'd like to evaluate the situation a bit more thoroughly) 13:24:53 madnificent: i do not believe in the concept of copyright. 13:25:06 H4ns: now that's a nice one 13:25:16 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (devel) (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:25:21 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:25:32 LGPL makes sure that changes to *your* code are released back and that you can plug a changed library back into released software - but you don't force anyone to change *his* licence 13:26:04 H4ns: I tend to agree. If you can replicate something after having seen it work five minutes, there's not anything original or non-obvious in it anyways. 13:26:07 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has left #lisp 13:26:12 H4ns: The concept of copyright usually is completely different from what is enforced by copyright law, especially in US 13:26:28 H4ns: Copyleft appears to be useful, though. Admittedly less so for dynamic systems like Lisp. 13:26:41 p_l: lgpl is harder to work with lisp. There's a LLGPL for lisp programs... 13:26:48 sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has joined #lisp 13:26:55 That's why I tend to stay with GPL for lisp programs. 13:26:59 matimago: I'm thinking in general 13:27:06 ok. 13:27:14 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 13:27:15 and I stay away from GPLv3 13:27:19 v2 is fine 13:27:20 p_l: whatever. i don't care. i write software because i'm paid for it, and i like sharing my work because i think it is helpful to look at code. 13:27:28 is llgpl compatible with H4ns? 13:27:38 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:28:03 lispm: i use llgpl software, but i do not like or advocate the license. 13:28:06 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:28:18 kreuter: Are you there? 13:28:22 *p_l* has similar view on it as H4ns 13:28:55 lispm: because in the core, it is still gpl. if i contribute to the core, i must use the gpl. i don't like that. 13:30:04 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 13:30:44 <_deepfire> matimago, the argument to "to force everyone to release their stuff" shouldn't be "we don't force anybody to use GPL software", but "we don't force anybody to release binaries of modified GPL software" 13:31:30 <_deepfire> You must share only if you redistribute derived work, period. 13:31:40 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:31:49 <_deepfire> people often misunderstand this, apparently. 13:32:11 if anybody has thoughts on this topic, feel free to send me mail to explain your position 13:32:23 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.133.197] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:32:42 I'm currently thinking about the topic in a low-priority thread 13:32:50 george__ [n=george@189.107.133.197] has joined #lisp 13:33:39 <_deepfire> the only "freedom" GPL takes away from you, in the end, is the freedom to redistribute binaries without disclosing the modifications. 13:33:41 lispm: if one wants to hope that a commercial entity picks up genera and invests in it, gpl is not the license that could promote that. 13:33:58 -!- splittist [n=splittis@26-85.203-62.cust.bluewin.ch] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:34:00 <_deepfire> I'm not sure what problem H4ns has with that, although I'd like to know. 13:34:20 H4ns, what about two licenses, a commercial one and a GPL-like - like in MySQL? 13:34:23 I suspect that people are more likely to contribute to libraries if they are actually able to use them for something 13:34:23 H4ns: do you know about counterexamples, don't you? 13:35:16 <_deepfire> rsynnott, so you want to sell other's people work? 13:35:19 _deepfire: i personally get paid for writing software, and my customers don't like the gpl. 13:35:47 _deepfire: erm, I think most commercial developers these days use at least some open source stuff 13:36:23 stassats`: i know about some companies that use gpl to promote their commercial software. 13:36:28 I'm writing a library (wxWidgets binding) at the moment. If I were to license it as GPL, I'm pretty certain no-one would use it 13:37:01 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:37:08 if I licensed it as LLGPL (plain LGPL may be unsuitable for Lisp use), people might use it, but might be unwilling to change the library itself 13:37:39 if I license it BSD or similar, people might use it, they might make modifications, and they might even contribute those back! 13:37:46 gpl is a license with strings attached, no matter how often proponents use the word "freedom". 13:38:08 *stassats`* likes public domain 13:38:15 so given that I have no inherent issue with people making money from my work (if I did, I wouldn't share it), a liberal license looks like the best option 13:38:42 stassats`: public domain is legally invalid in many places, so a license which grants effectively the same rights is a decent solution 13:38:52 you can make money with gpl too 13:38:57 H4ns: it enforces the freedom of the freedom of the software itself, not that of those that will work with it 13:38:58 rsynnott: Where public domain is invalid? 13:39:01 rsynnott: i know, but i still like it 13:39:11 madnificent: yes. "enforces" is the word here. 13:39:14 (well, strictly speaking public domain works everywhere, but in some countries you have to kill yourself and wait a few decades to make your work public domain) 13:39:24 rsynnott: That sounds like USA 13:39:30 p_l: I'm pretty sure it is in Germany 13:39:55 p_l: nope, 'public domain' as a software non-license originates in the US and is essentially based on US copyright law 13:40:00 rsynnott: AFAIK the only thing you need in most european countries is to disown all *commercial* rights 13:40:07 stassats`: much more difficult, though 13:40:08 rsynnott: And public domain is older than USA 13:40:10 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16ADE2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:40:18 masm [n=masm@213.22.190.91] has joined #lisp 13:40:23 H4ns: yes, that's the problematic part... on top of that, I wonder why we would let the software be free, instead of those that use it... 13:40:24 -!- masm [n=masm@213.22.190.91] has quit [Client Quit] 13:40:50 p_l: public domain is, but in some countries it is not possible to take a piece of work by oneself and say 'this is public domain now' 13:40:50 rsynnott: i'd write something "if you can't use PD, use MIT (or BSD)" 13:41:18 copyright applying automatically to any copyrightable work you produce whether you want it to or not 13:41:25 madnificent: this is why i chose to avoid the gpl if i can. i do not support "enforcing freedom". 13:41:41 I can't see any great benefit in licensing anything I produce as GPL, in particular 13:41:45 rsynnott: In poland you have a distinction between copyright of the work itself and material rights to it 13:41:54 it'll just make people avoid it 13:42:22 p_l: you can grant anyone an unlimited license to use, modify and redistribute a work, but that's not the same as PD 13:42:40 You cannot disown a work, ever. It's deeply tied to the "authorship" parts, and only the "material rights" can be removed 13:43:10 p_l: sounds similar to russian law 13:43:29 ah, those are so-called 'moral rights' here 13:43:51 though I think it's possible to give them up deliberately in some juristictions; it is rare, though 13:44:00 though, i don't think with mit, bsd, or gpl, you will have less legal troubles in russia 13:44:07 lispm you have a say in opengenera licensing ? 13:44:59 not really, but I would collect some ideas to provide input when necessary 13:45:26 I know that my input will be listened to, though 13:46:26 since holidays are coming, it is a good time to write down some thoughts about it 13:46:36 dear santa, ... 13:46:39 lispm: I think people would at least play with it if it was legal to obtain it 13:46:51 (freely, for educational/personal use) 13:47:22 the problem is not allowing that 13:47:34 rsynnott: many people gladly ignore legal issues for educational/personal use. i think the important part is what commercial use is allowed. 13:47:39 the problem is to get improvements and let people contribute 13:47:54 H4ns how would you use genera commercially ? 13:48:21 H4ns: I doubt anyone is likely to use genera commercially 13:48:22 xristos: hey, it is the best software development environment available! :) 13:48:28 it's probably more of historical interest 13:48:30 take some code from it and sell it 13:48:37 (and might be interesting for a compilers course) 13:49:10 but seriously: if genera would run stable on modern hardware, it might be an interesting platform for special purpose applications. 13:50:42 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:53:49 kind of like Inferno is used? 13:55:10 did Genera ever get CL? 13:55:17 or still just ZetaLisp? 13:56:08 symbolics common lisp 13:57:22 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:57:39 -!- sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has quit [] 13:58:40 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.143.97] has joined #lisp 14:00:44 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:42 Afaik most code still used FLAVOR 14:05:10 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A1E5B.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:05:33 VANILLA! 14:07:50 ... 14:08:54 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:09:18 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:09:50 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:10:36 segv [n=mb@207-172-92-9.c3-0.129-ubr3.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:13:06 -!- Eleanore [n=a@ip21293.lbinternet.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:15:42 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 14:21:08 sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has joined #lisp 14:24:09 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:51 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:44 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.133.197] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:27:03 george__ [n=george@189.107.133.197] has joined #lisp 14:27:11 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.143.97] has left #lisp 14:27:21 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 14:29:44 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483E23E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:57 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbfed7.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:34:05 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:35:47 perverted-coder [n=yakov@79.136.60.147] has joined #lisp 14:35:56 hey 14:36:12 -!- perverted-coder is now known as perv 14:39:22 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.133.197] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:39:35 george__ [n=george@189.107.133.197] has joined #lisp 14:41:18 -!- durka [n=durka@pool-68-163-213-183.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 14:42:02 hola 14:42:07 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:42:20 hi kiuma 14:45:20 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.6.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:45:57 yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has joined #lisp 14:48:12 hi fe[nl]ix 14:55:00 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 14:59:34 i <3 progn method combination. certainly, non-standard method combinations are not useful often, but in some cases they are just great. 15:00:50 -!- brill [n=brill@0x57386060.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 15:02:36 H4ns, what's your particular use case? 15:03:53 tic: i am encoding objects as json, and with progn method combination, i can implement encoding the attributes for every (mixin) class separately and have clos combine all applicable methods. 15:05:15 tic: attributes == slots here, but you propably figured that. 15:06:24 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 15:15:01 H4ns, clever. could you also have used the LIST or APPEND combination? 15:15:19 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 15:15:55 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has left #lisp 15:16:04 clhs defgeneric 15:16:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defgen.htm 15:16:06 mulligan [n=user@e178008230.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:16:10 tic: propably, but i'm calling the function for side effects anyway, so progn seems proper. i'm serializing to a stream. 15:17:59 yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:18:02 tic: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/07_ffd.htm 15:18:04 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:18:06 H4ns, yup! was just checking if I understood correctly. and you're right, no point in storing the data if you're going to output it soon anyway. 15:18:42 fe[nl]ix, yeah, I know. Hence me asking. :) 15:19:10 (maybe the proper question to ask was: "do you have side effects") 15:19:23 (or? nevermind.) 15:19:33 tic: progn kind of implies side effects 15:19:34 mulligan` [n=user@e178008230.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:21:25 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:23:35 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-5-52.client.stsn.net] has quit [] 15:24:17 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 15:25:02 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go"] 15:25:43 H4ns, yeah, as I said, nevermind. Thanks for the explanation. It sounds like the perfect fit for another method combination, indeed. 15:27:47 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has left #lisp 15:31:16 milanj [n=milan@91.150.119.77] has joined #lisp 15:31:39 Weekend soon. Yay! 15:32:29 slyrus: Tonight, we go to wine-and-cheese tasting. Theme this time: wine and cheese from Switzerland. 15:32:36 -!- _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:33:04 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 15:33:47 Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:35:01 spiaggia: Ticino ? 15:35:46 kiuma: Is that a wine? I know nothing (yet) about Swiss wines. 15:35:57 :) 15:36:09 kiuma: I'll let you know tomorrow. :) 15:36:10 I worked two years there 15:38:14 ahahah wine is not an emulator 15:38:55 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@78-1-134-59.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:39:05 lol 15:39:39 george__: you have solved the big dispute 15:39:44 :P 15:40:00 kiuma: what dispute ? 15:40:18 -!- segv [n=mb@207-172-92-9.c3-0.129-ubr3.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 15:40:27 wine is not an emulator 15:40:50 kiuma: ok 15:41:45 spiaggia: argh, I'm missing another wine & cheese tasting... :( 15:43:15 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:45:23 -!- kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a02cfbea01cba7a1] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:45:28 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:45:30 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:50:55 topo_ [n=topo@210.pool85-58-26.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 15:51:07 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:51:16 mvilleneuve: darn! 15:51:45 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:52:54 -!- sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has quit [] 15:55:08 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 15:55:46 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 15:55:47 cheese web cam booth ? 15:58:21 hmm, did anyone ever use eulisp for anything? 15:58:37 -!- free_tinker [n=willijar@eas-nw709pc01.aston.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:59:18 H4ns: have you another idea for my memory problem ? 16:00:04 l_a_m: did you rule out that cl-ppcre is your problem? 16:01:22 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 16:02:46 H4ns: the last launch of the unit tests suite kills the pc :( 16:03:11 l_a_m: which unit tests suite? which pc? 16:05:09 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:06:20 strange ... 16:06:31 all unit tests passed correcly now ... 16:07:12 l_a_m: you know, it is kind of rude asking for support and then not respond. 16:07:19 l_a_m: so no, i don't have any ideas 16:07:37 H4ns: it s my unit tests suite and my pc 16:08:44 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.119.77] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:09:09 how to set emacs as a irc client ? 16:09:36 http://paste.lisp.org/display/71175 <-- it s the last failed 16:10:33 george__: http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/?action=browse;oldid=EmacsIRCClient;id=ERC 16:11:25 I wonder if anyone has written more about a lisp-based processor. I have that paper by Steele, but that's it (I think) 16:11:30 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.193.149] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 16:11:43 ah, it's actually happening on create-scanner 16:12:37 Quadrescence: http://vaxbusters.org/workshop/secd.xml - see "classic designs" at the end for some references 16:13:17 ``Erik [n=erik@66-111-42-110.static.sagonet.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:36 -!- ``Erik [n=erik@66-111-42-110.static.sagonet.net] has left #lisp 16:14:26 ``Erik [n=erik@66-111-42-110.static.sagonet.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:48 H4ns: Thanks a lot. 16:14:49 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:16:16 kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-71-251-38-253.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:16:21 Lisp is beginning to interest me more and more from a "how it works" perspective. 16:17:25 l_a_m: did you try the cl-ppcre changes people suggested? 16:19:58 -!- setf [i=8f5d3597@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-d7ec34e28a143e86] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:20:58 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:23:31 segv [n=mb@pool-71-252-19-148.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:00 rsynnott: i try (setf cl-ppcre:*regex-char-code-limit* 256) before launch the unit tests 16:26:47 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.133.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:27:04 george__ [n=george@189.107.133.197] has joined #lisp 16:27:43 Quadrescence: more info on a lisp processor can be found here: http://www.asl.dsl.pipex.com/symbolics/index.html 16:29:11 Quadrescence: and at: http://www.sts.tu-harburg.de/~r.f.moeller/symbolics-info/symbolics.html 16:29:23 matimago: Thanks. Do you have any good references and whatnot to Lisp? Not to learning the language (or, well, CL), but, lisp at a more fundamental level? 16:29:57 What about the OpenGenera style? RISC cpu (with little overhead) and microcode on it? 16:30:07 minion: tell Quadrescence about lisp 16:30:07 Quadrescence: direct your attention towards lisp: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 16:30:11 Quadrescence: SICP, PAIP, LiSP, etc. 16:30:34 H4ns: nomnomnom 16:30:35 -!- topo_ [n=topo@210.pool85-58-26.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 16:30:49 Quadrescence: You'll find a lot to read about lisp also on: http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/ 16:31:20 george [n=george@189.107.177.94] has joined #lisp 16:31:21 Thank you all. 16:31:33 Quadrescence: see the section listing the papers about lisp and its history. 16:32:28 Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:33:41 -!- fbred [i=bredeli@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has left #lisp 16:34:00 *matimago* is going home :-) 16:34:07 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.133.197] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:35:25 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:36:13 milanj [n=milan@91.150.119.77] has joined #lisp 16:38:09 Lisp on RISC, see the SPUR project 16:39:15 karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has joined #lisp 16:39:51 'SPUR Lisp: Design and Implementation', Benjamin Zorn, ..., University of California, 1987 16:40:16 http://www.eecs.berkeley.edu/Pubs/TechRpts/1987/5811.html 16:41:31 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:41:50 drdo [n=psykon@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 16:43:06 Hi everyone. I'm having an issue with Lisp sockets. I'm using read-line to read the response from a socket, but it is quitting too early and not getting the whole response. I've pasted my code here http://paste.lisp.org/display/71172 with the first annotation being what I actually get, and the second being along the lines of what I should get 16:44:13 Also good: TI Lisp Machine Virtual Architecture, TI, 1985 16:44:16 http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/ti/explorer/LispMachineVirtArch_3-6-85.pdf 16:44:29 Zoba: is that Allegro ? 16:44:32 Yes 16:44:46 I hear Franz has excellent tech support 16:46:35 mogunus pasted "storage" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71177 16:46:39 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 16:46:47 Hi all. 16:47:04 I just pasted a human-readable format for magazine issue storage that I want to implement 16:47:16 you missed off the open paren 16:47:41 Xof: ? 16:47:57 Oh, so I did. 16:48:05 You're welcome 16:48:32 Oops, sorry. Thanks. Anyway... I don't really know how to go about making that work? 16:49:04 I'd like to be able to (load) a file with a bunch of those definitions and fill a hash-table with clos objects. 16:49:25 Would issue need to be a macro? 16:49:28 clhs make-load-form-saving-slots 16:49:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_l_1.htm 16:49:43 mogunus: ^ may help you. 16:49:56 mogunus: (if you are not bound to the specific format) 16:51:08 mogunus: did you sort out your encoding problem in the end? 16:51:36 H4ns: Not really, no. It needs to be human-readable is all... 16:51:40 rsynnott: yes! 16:51:44 either issue needs to be a macro or else section, article all need to be functions 16:51:46 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:52:07 e.g. (defun article (&rest args &key foo bar baz) (apply #'make-instance 'article args)) 16:52:08 Apparently, it was passing through a :latin-1 stream on the way out of hunchentoot 16:52:22 besiria [n=user@ppp083212085084.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 16:52:47 (defun section (name &rest articles) (make-instance 'section :name name :articles articles)) 16:52:49 how much time does it takes to read sicp ? 16:52:55 Xof: I wanted them all to be functions, but was unsure how to manage it properly... 16:52:56 (defun issue (name &rest sections) ...) 16:53:23 Xof: ie, I'm confused about what would go in section. 16:53:30 mogunus: ah, cool :) 16:53:30 s/section/issue 16:53:42 -!- karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:53:52 (defun issue (name &rest sections) (make-instance 'issue :name name :sections sections)) 16:54:45 Xof: and the code represented by the "sections" variable just gets evaluated? 16:54:59 rsynnott: but in the RELP, it was going through my utf-8 slime stream, so it was fine. 16:55:07 mogunus: sure, with the function definition I gave above 16:56:07 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 16:56:38 Xof: I guess I should've inferred that. I've never thought to use &rest arguments like that with functions. Thanks. 16:57:50 How does that deal with more than one section, though? 16:58:19 Wouldn't only the last one go into the sections slot? 16:58:22 no 16:58:55 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:59:34 Ugh. I'm confused then. What should I read to understand how that works? 17:00:09 I'm not sure. What do you think (defun foo (&rest numbers) numbers) (foo 1 2 3 4 5) returns? 17:01:05 disumu [n=disumu@p57A25215.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:28 for your use case, you might need something like (defun issue (name &rest sections) (let ((instance (make-instance 'issue :sections sections))) (setf (gethash name *issue-table*) instance))) 17:01:29 or something 17:03:02 Ohh, I get it now 17:03:16 &rest is also used in section 17:05:21 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-92-154.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:05:41 But there's more than one section, so it's (foo 1 2 3) (foo 2 3 4) => result of (foo 2 3 4)? 17:06:37 I wonder if I could get my hands on a lisp machine. :o 17:07:42 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:08:58 -!- mega1 [n=mega@pool-04a89.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:58 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:11:24 Is there a function or something that takes every form in a body of code, save it's return value, and returns that as a list? 17:12:12 mogunus: yes, it's called LIST 17:12:22 Quadrescence: you can by one from symbolics.com 17:12:39 H4ns: Seriously? :O 17:12:47 Quadrescence: sure 17:13:53 mogunus: If you also want to collect multiple values, you can do that with (multiple-value-call #'list form1 ... formN) 17:13:55 Is there a (standard) function for ripping out the variables bound in a function lambda expression? E.g. from (a &optional (b c d)) would return a b and d 17:14:13 Modius: Nope. 17:14:14 -!- drdo [n=psykon@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:14:16 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 17:14:28 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 17:14:52 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 17:16:11 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:16:32 alexandria:parse-lambda-list ? 17:17:14 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-32.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:17:48 kpreid: It's parse-ordinary-lambda-list, and that will return (b c d) for the &optional 17:17:51 morning 17:17:53 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 17:18:01 hello slyrus_ 17:18:02 oh 17:18:27 Well, Modius did say *function* lambda list...but his example did not fit 17:18:37 wait, yes it does 17:18:38 and I don't think that function will persist in alexandria for too long 17:18:42 that's the supplied-p variable 17:18:54 that's a shame, it ought to exist 17:19:08 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:19:12 there ought to exist a standalone lambda list frobbing library 17:20:30 cpape [n=user@p5484DABA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:31 Great, I got it working... thanks for the help all. I think I was getting confused by moving around code in a function instead of a macro, but now I get it. 17:20:53 borism [n=boris@195-50-206-42-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 17:21:37 benny [n=benny@i577A19ED.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 17:21:40 athos_ [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 17:22:47 -!- ltbarcly_ [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 17:22:56 What I don't understand is why I don't need :section (list sections) in the issue function. 17:25:03 the &rest parameter is bound to a list containing the remaining arguments 17:25:33 THat I realize 17:25:43 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-200-3-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:25:57 But isn't the return value of (foo 1) (foo 2) (foo 3) just (foo 3)? 17:26:00 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:26:01 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:26:19 Or 17:26:31 mogunus: what part of "a list containing the remaining arguments" do you not understand? 17:26:36 Okay, it's a list, so inside the list, the calls to section get evaluated? 17:26:48 george__ [n=george@189.107.164.145] has joined #lisp 17:26:58 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 17:27:00 mogunus: each argument to a function gets evaluated before the function is called. 17:27:33 mogunus: the caller doesn't check whether the callee has a &rest parameter before evaluating the arguments. 17:27:50 beach: ohhh, okay. thankyou. 17:29:19 I was screwing up the evaluation model in my head. I think I've been confusing myself with macros. I'm just going to go read all of pcl again. 17:30:23 manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:25 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:34 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:30:37 hello 17:30:38 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:00 hello manic12_ 17:31:09 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 17:32:43 -!- george [n=george@189.107.177.94] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:33:10 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:05 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:34:15 it would be cool to build a forth system for x86-64 to target vmware drivers and then write a vlm in that 17:35:03 i have no time to do such things of course 17:35:03 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 17:38:00 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-136.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:38:08 Has anyone written a CL bot? 17:38:36 (i.e., an IRC REPL) 17:39:06 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-136.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 17:40:07 drdo [n=psykon@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 17:40:18 there are IRC bots written in CL, but I don't know if they speak CL. 17:41:12 -!- yhara [n=yhara@7.193.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:41:55 _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 17:42:36 nostoi [n=nostoi@205.Red-83-54-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:54 esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 17:44:24 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:45:02 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A25215.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:46:40 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 17:49:12 topo_ [n=topo@210.pool85-58-26.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:50:55 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-136.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:51:15 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["leaving"] 17:51:47 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:51:53 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212085084.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:52:18 besiria [n=user@ppp083212085084.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 18:02:39 Quadrescence: what would you like for such a bot to be able to do? 18:04:01 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@205.Red-83-54-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 18:04:47 -!- segv [n=mb@pool-71-252-19-148.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:05:08 beach: Be a simple interpreter I guess. Most programming channels have one -- C++, Haskell, etc 18:05:23 such that you can test/show things, I suppose. 18:05:31 Quadrescence: I meant, what part of the Common Lisp standard would you like it to support? 18:05:39 Quadrescence, we don't like noise in this channel, though. 18:06:09 tic: I'm aware. I'm not saying it should replace everyone's repl, but it's neat to show things, I guess. 18:06:14 beach: I'm not sure. :/ 18:06:35 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:06:57 Quadrescence, doubt it. typos and wrong algorithms are better fixed locally than on IRC. My opinion, anyway. 18:07:05 Quadrescence: I suggest you give that some thought. 18:07:13 tic: Right, I agree completely. 18:07:25 Quadrescence, (I too have asked that exact question...) 18:07:32 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:07:34 tic: The purpose is more for teaching rather than asking. 18:07:54 beach, teaching minion how to do describe could perhaps be useful. 18:08:33 _theHAM [n=hammy@perlmonk.org] has joined #lisp 18:08:38 tic: I am still interested in knowing whether someone thinks there is a useful subset of Common Lisp that could be supported without too much risk. 18:09:15 beach, I'm sure you are. ;) What I said about describe was unrelated. 18:09:23 ah, OK. 18:09:47 tic: what would you tell minion to describe for you? 18:09:52 something like: minion, do (mapcar #'(lambda (x) (* x x)) '(1 2 3 4)) 18:10:15 Quadrescence: or minion, do (delete-file "...")? 18:10:18 beach, sorry, CL:DESCRIBE. i.e. the lambda list and documentation. 18:10:36 tic: how would you communicate to minion what object to describe? 18:10:49 beach: Well, yeah, things like that could be taken out. 18:11:03 And if someone did an infinite loop, it could be terminated. 18:11:05 Quadrescence: I am interested in what you mean by "like that". 18:11:20 Quadrescence: eval? 18:11:25 Quadrescence: compile? 18:11:30 josemanuel [n=josemanu@124.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:11:31 clim commands 18:11:31 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for commands. 18:11:41 :show users #lisp 18:12:09 beach, by name, so it would be useful mostly for the things it already knows how to look up. That would be a complement or replacement to the current "here's your URL, sir!" functionality. Sometimes that's enough, it doesn't add more noise than the URL, and could perhaps be learning to others. 18:12:18 what's the channel policy on submitting 6 lines of code for judgment? 18:12:25 mbac, paste.lisp.org/new/paste 18:13:16 xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:13:30 beach: I'm not sure really. I'm sure malicious things could be written, but other people are here too, and commands could only be sent in this channel (and maybe a minion channel for testing things) 18:13:31 madnificent [n=user@83.101.2.52] has joined #lisp 18:13:35 thanks! 18:13:50 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-32.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 18:14:14 Quadrescence: I think it'd be very difficult to devise a system that would do more good than harm. 18:14:29 ... and still be useful. 18:14:40 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:14:41 beach: I don't know. I've never seen problems with geordi (C++ bot) or mbot/lambdabot (haskell bot). 18:14:58 I've seen them being used more advantageously than negatively. 18:15:18 Yeah, occasionally someone tries to pop in and do some infinite loop thing, but they have a timeout on them. 18:15:20 Quadrescence: perhaps you should try submitting system("rm -rf /") to it. 18:15:56 beach, most likely sandboxed/chrooted. 18:16:10 most such bots solved the sandbox problem long ago 18:16:29 did they? are you certain? 18:16:46 I guess I am not making myself clear. I realize theat they are sandboxed. I would like to know what a safe but still useful sandbox for Common Lisp would look like. 18:17:29 locklace: what do they do about the buffer-overflow problem? 18:17:50 I don't think I'd want to watch people giving hands on demonstrations in #lisp. Maybe in another channel, though. 18:18:27 beach: http://www.haskell.org/haskellwiki/Safely_running_untrusted_Haskell_code 18:18:38 ahaas: the question is still interesting though: is there a useful but still safe subset of Common Lisp, and if so, what does it look like? 18:18:57 Quadrescence: er, this channel is not about Haskell. 18:19:03 beach: Oh, I totally agree. I want a sandboxed Lisp that's safe to use in a browser. 18:19:04 -!- topo_ [n=topo@210.pool85-58-26.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19:04 beach: I know it's not... 18:19:22 beach: I just linked to that because it might have useful information in answering that question... 18:19:29 it probably wouldn't include eval 18:19:39 topo_ [n=topo@210.pool85-58-26.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 18:19:57 schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has joined #lisp 18:20:25 Quadrescence: My guess would be "no" so I won't try no matter how many URLs you show me. But I would like for you to do it and show me what you came up with. 18:20:58 beach: Perhaps I will, then. 18:21:58 koning_r1bot: so in fact, it wouldn't do anything, because it can't evaluate the expressions you submit to it. 18:22:22 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:56 <_3b> beach: presumably the host could use eval without exposing it to the sandbox 18:23:07 "presumably". 18:23:34 <_3b> ok, if you want concrete, teh custom reader would filter out CL:EVAL :) 18:23:37 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #lisp 18:23:49 oh i thought you were going to check the submitted expressions for safety and then eval them, in which case eval and things like it would be holes 18:23:51 _3b: we still have intern 18:23:56 <``Erik> or grab one based on java and wrap it in an applet O.o 18:24:12 (funcall (intern "EVAL") '(....)) 18:24:26 <_3b> hmm, i guess custom evaluator then 18:24:27 but I guess we don't have INTERN either then. 18:24:33 beach: Do you really think it would try to be exploited though? 18:25:01 err, people would try to exploit it* 18:25:04 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:25:11 why not start a lisp in a vm that mounts all file systems read only and provide for an easy reset switch? 18:25:12 i wonder how useful it is to have a lisp that doesn't allow metaprogramming 18:25:14 Quadrescence: Like I said, I think you would end up with something that can do side-effect-free arithmetic expressions and very little more. 18:25:22 <_3b> Quadrescence: would you really want to run it on your hardware if you weren't sure it couldn't be exploited? :) 18:25:24 i can't imagine much damage that could be done in such an environment. 18:25:29 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:25:34 _3b: With a VM, I wouldn't mind at all. 18:26:04 I set up a windows VM a day ago -- wouldn't mind running it on that. Or on the computer next to me. 18:26:28 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 18:26:31 <_3b> well, that is a way to be sure it can't be exploited i guess 18:26:32 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 18:26:43 <_3b> (assuming it has no network connection at least) 18:27:08 <_3b> koning_r1bot: metaprogramming is the reason i use lisp 18:27:19 that's what i mean 18:29:16 if you don't allow it to use any form of networking/file IO, and you limit the processor time and memory the process may use, would there be any danger left?\ 18:29:34 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@92.41.201.247.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:29:50 <_3b> (loop (format t "annoy the channel!")) ? 18:30:01 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 18:30:42 _3b: so allow the vm to be turned off by admins? on top of that, I'd put it in a separate channel 18:30:59 _3b: allso, the haskell-bot is rarely ever overused 18:31:41 maybe this is because the whole thing is so useless? 18:31:55 I brought it up as just an idea. 18:32:17 <_3b> i'd probably just limit amount of output to channel directly, maybe allow printing more to a web page/pastebin or something 18:32:17 I've seen the concept used very well elsewhere, which is just the reason I've said it. 18:32:32 I believe it is a good idea... you know who commanded the bot to do something... so you know who you'll kick if he outputs too much (etc) 18:32:57 *_3b* finds it easier to just assume everyone has a REPL handy :) 18:33:29 _3b: it's a bad assumption... installing lisp is not always as easy (apparantly) 18:33:41 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:33:47 ** that is for windows kids, I never noticed much trouble 18:33:55 madnificent: if installing a lisp is too hard for a person, programming lisp is a hopeless endeavour. 18:33:55 s/noticed/had 18:34:04 <_3b> madnificent: yeah, but usually people having that problem want to know how to install it, more than see examples 18:34:10 H4ns, it's good for checking up types. teaching minion how to do CL:DESCRIBE would fill a similar gap, I think. 18:34:14 H4ns: that is just unfair... it are two completely separate things 18:34:20 H4ns: I must disagree with you 18:35:06 aha? 18:35:06 there's such a thing as a threshold. not everyone masters Vim from day 1. 18:35:52 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@92.41.201.247.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has left #lisp 18:35:57 i'm kind of puzzled that you seem to believe that installing an irc client and conceptionalizing an online communication channel through words is acceptable, but installing a lisp is not, for an aspiring programmer. 18:36:11 H4ns: Installing lisp can sometimes be a mad endeavor, running circles around technicalities, while programming lisp could be seen as a mathematical exploration. 18:36:14 but then, i don't care. go ahead and create a repl channel somewhere. 18:36:46 meingbg: aha? mad endeavour? like "apt-get install clisp" or double clicking a windows installer package? 18:37:06 H4ns: I can do with apt-get. 18:37:19 Is there a (portable) way to request the numerical address associated with a reference? (It's for a print-obj, to add a nice visual cue for identity purposes) 18:37:35 clhs print-unreadable-object 18:37:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_pr_unr.htm 18:37:37 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 18:37:38 H4ns: And if you say that potential trouble installing is just a threshold, I'm not gonna argue. 18:37:52 Modius: see the identity keyword argument in particular. 18:38:21 How is having a repl-bot going to help people who can't install an implementation? 18:38:29 silas428 [n=ryanpayt@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:36 meingbg: well, you know, people who install netbsd on an ancient alpha just to be different and then have trouble to get going with sbcl really don't need a repl-bot to be saved as lisp programmers. 18:39:08 The point of a repl-bot is just for conveniently evaluating expressions in channel. 18:39:31 Quadrescence: go ahead, create a new channel, create a repl-bot, have fun. please don't do it here. 18:39:58 w H4ns 18:40:09 H4ns: You sound cold about it. I originally just asked if it has been made. 18:40:10 almost 18:40:15 H4ns: ah, perhaps you've got a point. On the other hand, if you look at it, simply trying to be a lisp programmer is kind of "different" to some ppl. 18:40:57 meingbg, some argue you need to be clever to write Lisp code. Maybe the Lisp compiler installation (sudo aptitude install sbcl) is an intelligence test? ;) 18:41:34 <_3b> so does using the usually ancient stuff in apt repos count as passing or failing? :p 18:41:54 it's a start! 18:41:56 having a repl bot is fun, just look at #haskell ... it's used well and helps alot. But the argument that it's helping aspiring lisp programmer is so farfetched it's ridiculous ;-) 18:41:57 tic: I can accept the threshold idea ;) 18:42:44 ahaas: it is an intermediary thing... sometimes things don't work the first time you try them... people get demotivated very quickly when trying something new. With the bot, they would be able to entertain themselves a bit before trying again. 18:43:03 madnificent: Yeah, but I don't want to have to see it. 18:43:06 ahaas: allso, it is nice to demonstrate things to people if you're not on your own computer. 18:43:24 ahaas: /ignore it, or put it in another channel 18:43:33 benny: Maybe one part of the problem is that haskell code often is shorter than lisp code when it's a topic of discussion. 18:43:37 -!- drdo [n=psykon@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:43:48 I totally support the endeavor, though, especially along the thought experiment that beach presented. 18:43:54 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-32.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:02 ahaas: if needed, it is possible to grant some people to use it from this channel to give an example (even though I'm not sure I support that idea) 18:44:31 meingbg: are you saying we are not superior !?!?!?! ;) 18:44:39 maybe someone can come up with a repl that automatically lisppastes, that would make more sense then putting stuff into the channel. 18:44:50 meingbg: sure, I've also seen luabots and rubybots... argueable they are used for more trivial things like table lookups and whatnot... but the describe thing that tic mentioned earlier is also nice. see #emacs 18:45:05 -!- xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.11/0000000000]"] 18:45:44 \ 18:45:55 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:45:59 H4ns: s/the/a/ and the combination of a separate channel and a pastie could be bliss. On top of that, we wouldn't even need to have a bot for it, if it were a package that you could load in your own environment 18:46:18 madnificent: heh, I was waiting for that comment! I wasn't saying haskell code doing the same thing is shorter, just that haskell ppl more often discuss smaller pieces of code... 18:47:00 -!- silas428 [n=ryanpayt@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:47:11 or you could private chat with it and it would be just like an actual lisp interpreter 18:47:37 meingbg: yeah, I just couldn't resist :P (but actually, haskell-problems are generally easy to split 18:47:57 Maybe someone could lisppaste a mocked up dialogue of how this repl-bot would be useful in #lisp. 18:48:29 I find the high bot usage in #haskell annoying. I don't want to see something like that here. 18:48:34 koning_r1bot: yes, the idea of combining a separate channel and an automatic lisppaste from your own repl does seem rather powerfull for explaining things 18:49:24 tcr: please, not *in this* channel, but *in a separate* channel... I don't think anyone here truely wants an evaluating bot outputting to this channel 18:49:52 you could start by creating this channel and discussing there. this will avoid confusion :D 18:50:05 LoL 18:50:36 evening 18:50:41 -!- manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:50:54 michaelw: What asdf frobbing capabilities does redshank have? 18:51:03 manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:51:06 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:51:32 tcr: generate an asdf:defsystem skeleton, nothing else 18:51:47 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 18:55:48 -!- chillywilly [n=danielb@rrcs-98-100-186-38.central.biz.rr.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 18:57:35 segv [n=mb@207-172-92-9.c3-0.129-ubr3.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:58:02 -!- segv [n=mb@207-172-92-9.c3-0.129-ubr3.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:59:39 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:59:49 Does sbcl have threads? 18:59:57 it does. 19:00:05 meingbg: In some places. 19:00:14 `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.2.52] has joined #lisp 19:01:13 What do you mean "In some places."? 19:01:23 on some platforms 19:02:42 okay... meaning Linux/X86 is okay, but Windows not? 19:03:24 meingbg: I think linux x86-64 and freebsd is ok too. 19:04:03 threads work pretty well on x86/darwin as well 19:04:19 meingbg: http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Threading.html#Threading 19:05:17 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 19:06:12 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:49 thx 19:09:12 *schme* goes back to the WM hunt. 19:09:46 george_ [n=george@189.107.186.23] has joined #lisp 19:10:24 <``Erik> fbsd lists sbcl threading as "experimental", but I haven't had issue with them on ia32 and amd64 so far 19:10:32 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:11:08 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e178008230.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:11:28 nibbles [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/nibbless] has joined #lisp 19:13:53 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 19:14:03 elurin [n=user@85.99.168.94] has joined #lisp 19:14:11 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@239.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:14:51 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.2.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:15:07 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:16:41 sdfsf [n=hask@h49n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:54 is there no way to comment out a section in slime? 19:17:10 sdfsf: You mean M-; ? 19:17:38 sdfsf: M-x comment-region 19:18:03 and hhow do i uncomment? 19:18:17 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@239.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 19:18:36 M-x uncomment-region 19:18:37 sdfsf: afaik in lisp mode M-; worked both ways (adding/subtracting two ';') 19:19:36 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:20:50 filcab42 [n=filcab@a83-132-100-247.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 19:20:53 -!- `m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.2.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:21:24 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:01 -!- filcab42 [n=filcab@a83-132-100-247.cpe.netcabo.pt] has left #lisp 19:22:39 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 19:26:07 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@239.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:27:20 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 19:27:38 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.164.145] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:30:41 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:13 pkhuong_ [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:31:42 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:31:43 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-189-40.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:31:47 lemoinem_ [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:32:45 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 19:33:34 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 19:33:39 -!- lemoinem_ is now known as lemoinem 19:33:58 -!- manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:31 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:37:56 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-189-40.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:38:14 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-189-40.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:38:21 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:39:12 -!- sdfsf [n=hask@h49n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 19:41:53 george__ [n=george@189.107.186.23] has joined #lisp 19:42:03 netaust1n [n=austinsm@70.130.147.93] has joined #lisp 19:42:33 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:43:30 -!- george_ [n=george@189.107.186.23] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:43:47 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:43:56 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@239.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 19:43:57 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@c-98-223-43-42.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:46:03 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 19:47:03 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:48:43 -!- netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-189-40.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:53:56 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:55:49 -!- george__ [n=george@189.107.186.23] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:58:19 karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has joined #lisp 20:04:52 doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 20:06:19 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 20:06:49 george_ [n=george@189.107.186.23] has joined #lisp 20:08:09 i'm trying to use lisp files as cgi scripts using sbcl, which sort of works. only it keeps printing its stupid banner instead of executing my program. the shebang line looks like this: #!/usr/bin/sbcl --noprint --noinform --load 20:08:26 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 20:08:50 ryrunfrnf [n=hask@h49n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:09:26 when doing (let ((inc (/ res))), what does that mean? im translating pg ansi cl to clojure and i dont get some of the code. inc is +1 no? 20:09:32 koning_r1bot: --noinform 20:09:37 but here he is using it as a variable? 20:11:02 but i'm passing --noinform, when i run the shebang line from the shell it works, but when i rely on the shebang it doesn't 20:11:04 <_3b> ryrunfrnf: inc is not +1, and CL wouldn't care anyway 20:11:21 <_3b> ryrunfrnf: why not translate from a language you know instead of CL? 20:12:07 -!- ilSignorCarlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:12:07 -!- ilSignor1arlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:12:12 koning_r1bot: use it as first argument 20:12:15 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:12:55 doesn't make a difference 20:14:21 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-186-89-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 20:15:05 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:15:16 koning_r1bot: sbcl --noinform --eval '(print :hi)' --eval '(quit)' 20:15:36 koning_r1bot: if you have a recent sbcl, you can do #!/usr/bin/sbcl --script 20:15:42 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has left #lisp 20:15:55 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:15:56 it works on the command line, just not from a shebang line 20:16:07 i don't have a recent sbcl, unfortunately. maybe i should change that 20:16:28 sbcl --version will show version 20:16:48 george__ [n=george@189.107.186.23] has joined #lisp 20:16:48 -!- george_ [n=george@189.107.186.23] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:17:11 1.0.18.debian :P 20:17:12 bah, i misread 20:17:21 phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 20:17:50 koning_r1bot: --script was introduced in .22 20:20:24 heh, I was completely off the mark. sorry, koning_r1bot 20:22:20 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:22:36 well the problem is, i just can't understand how the shebang situation is any different from the running the command manually 20:23:06 -!- ryrunfrnf [n=hask@h49n2c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 20:23:55 wish i could macroexpand the shebang 20:25:25 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:31 sbcl had no shebang out of the box prior to .22, there was some trick from the manual 20:26:22 peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:29 no but isn't that done by sh? doesn't it just append the filename to the shebang and run that? 20:27:24 koning_r1bot: The application after shebang must understand the shebang too 20:27:34 otherwise it might try to read it as code to execute 20:27:36 I'm curious about how Lisp folks (and functional folks, in general) like to handle the same part of the application that a OOP ORM would handle. 20:27:47 I don't like how an ORM like Rails' Active Record goes about doing its job, for example. 20:28:24 lisp folks aren't functional folks in general 20:28:26 peter_12: Don't take ActiveRecord as a good example... there are many better, even in Ruby world (AR fucking sucks for anything bigger) 20:28:43 p_1: hence the question :-) 20:29:05 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit ["If at first you don't succeed, quit; don't be a nut about success."] 20:29:37 I wonder how a functional style could accomplish the same task as an ORM 20:29:45 peter_12: Sequel has a little functional-like interface as for ruby-based stuff - for example you define relations by creating a method which return a dataset 20:29:45 surely folks have done this sort of thing 20:30:23 I'm not particularly interested in Ruby stuff. Active Record is just an example of what I don't like :-) 20:31:16 <_3b> peter_12: which part of ORM are you interested in? 20:31:56 _3b: Right now, I'm thinking about application-level validation before attempting to persist data to the database 20:31:59 -!- doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:15 <_3b> so actually having a rdbms is a requirement? 20:32:24 should some function, return an errors object or throw an errors object with information about all the invalid data? 20:32:41 peter_12: Use function composition and passing around data objects/whole "changesets" and then send them as one transaction? 20:32:42 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:32:55 _3b: I do have a rdbms but I'm more interested in the interface between the rest of hte application and the model layer 20:32:59 in CL, use CL's condition system 20:33:33 p_l: I'll have to look into that 20:33:39 don't know anything about it 20:34:32 cltl2-section Conditions 20:34:32 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node312.html 20:34:33 <_3b> just storing objects in memory and serializing them for persistance seems the trendy CL solution lately 20:34:57 <_3b> but as mentioned earlier, CL doesn't have much to do with functional style 20:34:57 peter_12: A functional interface IMHO would probably simply pass around the data object that is going to end up in dbms, and then the lower-level logic would transform that into a "changeset" that would be applied as a transaction to dbms 20:35:25 _3b: Doesn't stop you from writing functional apps though... 20:35:58 p_l: that is roughly what I was thinking of doing 20:36:10 _3b: serializing them as s-expressions? 20:36:14 <_3b> p_l: right, but i wouldn't expect CL programmers to put any effort into doing things in functional style if the mapping wasn't trivially obvious :) 20:36:30 <_3b> peter_12: in whatever format the library author liked :) 20:37:09 _3b: the reason I mention a functional style is that the more energy I put into finding functional-style solutions the better the code gets. After the hard work of thinking or researching the solutions seem trival 20:37:22 peter_12: Consider it in terms of pipeline: ((input(s) -> validation functions of the inputs) -> internal datastructure -> changeset -> db action) 20:37:48 <_3b> peter_12: not suggesting looking for functional style solutions is a bad idea, just that this isn't the best place for it 20:38:08 <_3b> scheme, clojure, haskell, etc channels would be more likely to have thought about the problem 20:38:14 peter_12: For pure functional approaches, you can always pester haskell guys :) 20:38:33 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:38:37 <_3b> and more usefully, to have tried using the solutions they came up with 20:38:39 p_l: I'll probably ask the haskell folks 20:39:22 *p_l* currently tries writing a simple AI tool using mostly functional programming 20:39:39 neural networks? 20:40:15 peter_12: not only 20:40:53 *p_l* doesn't get it why the first thing people ask/think about when they hear AI is "neural networks" 20:42:58 -!- phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:43:34 because they are neat 20:44:17 peter_12: ... I want to smack you in the head with my AI course handbook 20:44:35 (hint: neat vs scruffy) 20:45:24 I'd say that neural networks had Apple-class marketing 20:46:30 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:46:40 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-84.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:47:22 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@124.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 20:47:33 anyway, I want to play with various approaches, combined together 20:47:46 "society of mind" style 20:48:00 -!- ``Erik [n=erik@66-111-42-110.static.sagonet.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:48:06 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 20:49:03 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:56:31 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 20:59:08 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 20:59:47 koning_r1bot: the reason the shebang doesn't work is that you're using an OS which does not split multiple arguments there 21:00:05 so sbcl gets one argument which is "--noinform --eval '(print ..." 21:00:18 naturally it ignores this as that's not one of its options 21:01:44 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 21:03:21 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:08:37 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 21:13:49 sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has joined #lisp 21:14:16 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:18:17 froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 21:18:18 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:18:50 How do I get an external packet to work with sbcl? Haven't read up enough on asdf yet, I guess. 21:19:58 -!- nibbles [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/nibbless] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:20:29 I've tried pushing the directory to asdf:*central-registry* and then (require 'mypacket) with no luck. 21:20:38 meingbg: I think you mean 'package' 21:21:02 ahaas: That's what I meant, sorry. 21:21:21 meingbg: please paste the code 21:22:47 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-252-136.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 21:23:30 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:24:50 -!- mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-195-62.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:25:08 user___ [n=user@p549248C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:48 froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 21:26:06 meingbg: do asdf:*central-registry* in the REPL. Is the correct directory in that list? 21:28:02 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 21:28:05 elderK [n=zeiit@218-101-117-153.dialup.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 21:28:51 meingbg pasted "sbcl/asdf setup" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71191 21:29:38 sykopomp: No, but I've pushed the correct directory there. 21:30:11 meingbg: if it's not in that list, you didn't push it... 21:30:48 oh hm 21:30:54 It's there after pushing. Sorry for being unclear. 21:31:04 meingbg: is the .asd inside that directory? 21:32:06 sykopomp: Hah, no. Guess that explains a lot? 21:32:37 manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:52 meingbg: that explains everything. You need the directory to point to the .asd file 21:34:11 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:35:14 sykopomp: I see. Well, I downloaded those files one by one since the package itself wasn't there anymore. 21:35:15 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:37:37 meingbg: how come you're trying to use PORT ? 21:38:46 Just some TCP sockets, thought it was a good idea to learn to use port instead of having to alter code between lisp implementations. Is that a good idea? 21:39:19 meingbg: there's iolib and usocket, too 21:39:24 I haven't heard of port 21:39:34 port is rather obsolete nowadays 21:40:00 meingbg: as sykopomp said, there are better alternatives 21:40:55 -!- froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:41:09 okay... Well, I usually try to stick to what's most widely used. Are iolib and usocket portable? 21:41:13 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:02 yes 21:43:05 meingbg: they work in many CL implementations 21:43:13 usocket is particularly simple, if you just want tcp sockets 21:43:20 check their sites for details 21:43:21 I haven't actually tried iolib 21:44:16 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:47:02 -!- peter_12 [n=peter@S010600119506b129.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [] 21:49:36 sykopomp: fe[nl]ix: Have you used usocket for servers? Their site says "work in progress". 21:50:12 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:41 meingbg: the universe is a work in progress! 21:50:49 meingbg: hunchentoot uses usocket 21:51:05 meingbg: I use usocket for a server I wrote 21:51:19 -!- phao [n=phao@20158145171.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:51:25 meingbg: I have applications in production that use a usocket-based httpd. 21:51:41 phao [n=phao@20158145171.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 21:51:51 meingbg: one might say that only abandoned projects are not "work in progress" 21:51:57 like PORT 21:52:22 Allright, so I guess usocket will work for a simple piping server. 21:54:11 -!- elderK [n=zeiit@218-101-117-153.dialup.clear.net.nz] has quit [] 21:54:24 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:32 is defparameter the right way to declare a global, read-only table of data? 21:55:45 mbac: yes. 21:55:51 mbac: if it's readonly, you might want to define a constant 21:56:16 Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 21:56:26 mbac: I think defconstant ought to be suitable for that, but sbcl interprets the spec in a manner making that impractical. 21:56:42 kpreid: huh? 21:56:55 sykopomp: if it's read only, and is actually a constant value, otherwise SBCL is not happy 21:57:01 ok followup question regarding this table 21:57:16 sykopomp: try it! write (defconstant *foo* '(1 2 3)) in a file, then compile and load that file 21:58:30 actually, no i don't, i'm good 21:58:35 this is conformant behavior, it's just rather useless 21:58:54 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:59:15 kpreid: wait, what? 21:59:21 that's pretty annoying 21:59:30 IMO the spec should have said that *which value you see on reading* is undefined; instead it says that *the consequences of redefinition are undefined* 21:59:45 kpreid: what would an useful behaviour be ? 21:59:47 ugh... 21:59:58 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:00:46 fe[nl]ix: not rejecting the redefinition, but either accepting or ignoring it 22:01:05 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 22:01:10 both are consistent with the above hypothetical spec change 22:02:22 Hi. In the site I'm building with hunchentoot/cl-who, there is a multi-page index of stuff. Does it make sense to have a get-parameter that specifys which page the client wants? Instead of having multiple functions? 22:02:55 Is there a better way to do that? 22:03:15 mogunus: You could have multiple handlers that all use the same auxillary function, which takes an argument. 22:03:59 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 22:04:09 mogunus: That is, assuming that the pages have some common body. 22:04:37 mogunus: It really depends on the content and the URLs you want to expose. 22:04:55 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [No route to host] 22:05:02 ahaas: the body would be generated with the exact same functions, from different data 22:06:25 If the returned pages are all static, I wouldn't use GET just to specify which one. 22:06:40 Hrmm. Okay, that makes sense. 22:07:14 Oh. Issue being, I don't know exactly how many pages there are going to be. 22:08:03 mogunus: So, the URLs would return sections of an index? 22:09:02 syamajala [n=syamajal@171-215.126-70.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:09:26 ahaas: yes. 22:09:33 Personally, I don't use GET or POST unless there is a very strong reason to do so. 22:10:27 aha, it's a nice machine but i haven't managed to get mac osx on it yet, will try freebsd instead 22:10:39 whoops wrong chat 22:11:33 I'm trying to avoid using them, yes. I guess I could dynamically generate the handler functions? 22:11:45 mogunus: Is the same URL always going to return the exact same result? 22:12:04 mogunus: You can have a handler that uses a prefix, then parse the rest of URL inside that handler. 22:12:22 ahaas: how do I get at the rest of the URL? 22:13:06 mogunus: The URL is available in the request object. I think there are some functions to help parse it, but you can always write your own. 22:13:12 I must've missed it in the docs, I'm just learning hunchentoot... 22:13:20 Hunchentoot is great. 22:13:45 -!- manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:06 Oh, yeah 22:14:09 it's fantastic 22:14:35 I use this: (first (last (ppcre:split "/" (script-name) 22:14:42 -!- user___ [n=user@p549248C6.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:14:49 (missing a few parens at the end there) 22:15:18 esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 22:15:19 ahaas, how about ] for "however many end-parens needed"? 22:15:35 (I think that was in one of the elderly Lisps. Interlisp, was it?) 22:15:56 tic: interesting 22:16:36 ahaas, not very useful except for on IRC, I think. 22:18:11 topo [n=topo@210.pool85-58-26.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 22:18:17 i can't use hyphens in defparameter names? 22:18:35 -!- topo_ [n=topo@210.pool85-58-26.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:18:47 mbac: why do you say that? 22:19:04 i get a "style warning -- variable s is not used" 22:19:26 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:20:00 maybe i'm confused 22:20:07 mogunus: That code snippet was borrowed from Edi's cl-webdav, btw. It was used for the same purpose, and Hunchentoot already depends-on cl-ppcre. 22:21:11 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:18 mbac, code please. 22:22:55 this works: (map 'list #'(lambda (s) '(:display_name s :slug s)) *foo*) 22:22:59 ahaas: thanks, that's ideal 22:23:06 this does not: (defparameter *foo-slugs* (map 'list #'(lambda (s) '(:display_name s :slug s)) *foo*)) 22:23:54 (taking out the hypen doesn't help, i was wrong) 22:24:13 mbac: the warning is correct, s is not used 22:24:42 oh, my 22:25:28 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-193.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:25:41 it appears i wanted (list :display_name s :slug s) instead 22:26:34 thank you 22:26:51 anuj [n=anuj@210.212.55.3] has joined #lisp 22:27:19 manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:23 kpreid___ [n=kpreid@pool-71-125-66-93.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:34 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 22:29:17 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-71-251-38-253.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:29:20 -!- kpreid___ is now known as kpreid 22:30:38 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@171-215.126-70.tampabay.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:02 -!- sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has quit [] 22:35:48 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF576.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:36:37 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:37:09 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@pool-71-125-66-156.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:43 syamajala [n=syamajal@171-215.126-70.tampabay.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:54 is there an equivalent to python re.sub? 22:43:07 minion: tell mbac about cl-ppcre 22:43:08 what does re.sub do? 22:43:08 mbac: please look at cl-ppcre: CL-PPCRE is a portable, Perl-compatible regular expression library by Edi Weitz. http://www.cliki.net/cl-ppcre 22:43:15 oh, regexes 22:43:16 haha 22:43:34 sweet! 22:45:18 are regular expressions the answer? 22:45:27 i have a chance to break the cycle here 22:45:34 that depends on your problem. 22:46:03 mbac: Well, re.sub *is* regular expression-based 22:46:06 mbac: if i'm not totally wrong, re.sub performs regular expression replacements in python. it is certainly possible that i am wrong. 22:46:15 it does 22:46:17 H4ns: bingo 22:46:36 right, just wondering if i have alternatives 22:46:37 but pretty often, regexes are the problem and not the solution 22:46:55 Hun: "aha" 22:46:57 i want to do s/[^a-z]//g to a string 22:47:13 is there a filter_map? 22:47:48 remove-if-not should be sufficient 22:48:14 excellent! 22:49:34 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:52:13 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-71-125-66-93.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:54:08 phf [n=phf@c-69-140-35-170.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:37 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 22:59:46 borzoil [n=vtzankov@router2-border.mreja.net] has joined #lisp 23:01:17 -!- karvus [n=thomas@193.213.35.168] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:02:31 ths [n=ths@X603a.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 23:03:43 sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has joined #lisp 23:03:53 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-168-233.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:59 evenin' 23:04:09 yello 23:05:00 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 23:06:38 -!- lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:44 usocket issue: to Check whether the other end has closed, I'm supposed to read and perhaps get an error, to check whether reading from a socket stream will block I'm supposed to do (listen stream). How do I do both? I wanna know if it's closed, but I don't want to wait forever if it's open without data. 23:08:00 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 23:09:13 -!- phao [n=phao@20158145171.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:09:31 -!- borzoil [n=vtzankov@router2-border.mreja.net] has left #lisp 23:10:18 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbfed7.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:12:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-71-125-67-150.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:47 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:13:32 Hi, I installed weblocks through clbuild a while ago, but ever since, when I retry, it does not work 23:13:43 all dependencies are available but the weblocks repository itself seems offline 23:14:06 It does? 23:14:11 1.8 just came out, so that seems odd. 23:14:22 I've never used clbuild, so I can't help with that part, but just a sec... 23:14:26 Erm, 0.8 23:14:34 back when I did it for the first time I already got a reply from the weblocks mailing list that clbuild was not the advised way to install weblocks, since apparently it is "a stale branch via clbuild" 23:14:59 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 23:14:59 cat: weblocks/_darcs/prefs/defaultrepo: No such file or directory\n\nerror: update was interrupted.\nUse "clbuild update --resume" to retry. (See also "clbuild skip PROJECT"). 23:15:56 and as it seems, clbuild uses darcs, whereas the repository advertised in the weblocks manual is actually a mercurial one 23:16:00 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/browse_thread/thread/a743c2462ebd9e1f 23:16:04 http://trac.common-lisp.net/cl-weblocks/wiki/ObtainingAndInstalling <- 23:16:31 Yeah, there have been a *lot* of discussions about that issue on the mailing list; you should be able to get to them through that link. 23:17:42 http://groups.google.com/group/weblocks/browse_thread/thread/b5d8722f392513f/4308eae561bcdb4c?lnk=gst 23:17:46 that was the original thread 23:17:55 I wrote down everything I did to install weblocks back then 23:18:11 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:20 but it stopped working, so now I want to fix that :) 23:18:48 *nod* 23:21:44 how did you find weblocks? i stopped trying after i fell into dependency hell getting the required packages, might try it again. 23:22:15 I completely adore it. :) 23:22:27 phao [n=phao@20158145171.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:22:36 b4|hraban: try deleting weblocks folder in clbuild/source. latest clbuild uses mercurial repo, so your install might be trying to update existing darcs folder 23:22:39 I had never previously worked in a decent continuations-based web framework, which may be relevant. 23:22:49 But I really haven't found anything to dislike about it. 23:23:14 A steep learning curve, though; hence http://teddyb.org/rlp/tiki-index.php?page=Learning+About+Weblocks 23:23:21 fusss, well, I have not been able to play around with lisp a lot lately, but so far it looks like fun 23:23:34 installing it was easy as pie when clbuild still worked :) 23:23:38 even with that broken dependency 23:23:45 I use asdf-install, even though it's a horrible security hole. 23:24:28 i use Microsoft Windows XP, even though it's a horrible security hole, thus cann't use asdf-install or clbuild :-P 23:24:36 but I should mention that I was/am using weblocks as a way to learn lisp, not as a way to build a web application (I mean, not primarily) 23:24:47 fusss, no cygwin? 23:25:03 i try to avoid that monster. just basic mingw. 23:25:25 clbuild doesn't work on mingw? 23:26:14 it didn't when i tried it, but i have a delicate site-systems code base, because i have several lisp sharing the same repo 23:26:29 clisp, sbcl, and now lw 23:26:42 afaik clbuild never leaves its directory 23:26:43 <_3b> could always run lisp on a linux in virtualbox or something :) 23:26:49 I have everything in ~/clbuild/ 23:28:23 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@pool-71-125-66-156.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Success] 23:28:54 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 23:29:12 i have a throbbing slackware server at home, but i'm rarely at home :-P 23:29:57 ssh? 23:30:31 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:31:14 oh hey, I just had to update my clbuild install 23:31:28 totally overlooked doing that 23:32:34 fusss: I actually *am* using Weblocks to build a webapp, fwiw, although I'm not very far into it. 23:32:44 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SymbolicWeb also looks interesting, fwiw. 23:34:30 wow, i remember lars mentioning it on cll, didn't realize it came that far. thanks for the ref 23:35:02 i should update that page a bit, rlpowell .. i don't think they'd like me doing it though :} .. i've added some more features; simple MVC support 23:35:33 lnostdal: Update which page? 23:35:50 wikipedia 23:35:57 *nod* 23:36:09 Are you one of the SymbolicWeb devs, or is this a fork? 23:36:33 i'm the dev .. i don't think there are any others 23:36:52 had a couple of patches from others, but not much 23:37:31 http://sw2.nostdal.org/mvc-container-app 23:37:53 If we are at the topic of web support - is there any comparison of all of the different web "frameworks" for CL, gathered in one place? 23:38:00 Who better to update the WP page, then? 23:38:03 http://common-lisp.net/~lnostdal/programming/lisp/symbolicweb/examples/mvc-container.lisp .. still needs more work .. but it's ok for now 23:38:23 p_l: Not aware of one. Wolud sure be nice. Let us know when you're done. :D 23:39:01 rlpowell: nah, won't pay my bills. Actually making a webpage for some client in CL might... 23:39:26 but right now, I think I'll keep to (slightly modified) Rails and Merb 23:39:43 lnostdal: how hard would it be to hack SW with elephant, instead of postgres? 23:40:06 *p_l* adds another thing to his "projects to-do when I have free time and stable income" 23:40:40 fusss: Any certain dbms you want to support? 23:40:53 bdb 23:41:19 that certainly is a worthy target. <<--- was scared to hear "MySQL" 23:41:21 fusss, it's not using postgres or anything .. it's just a "wui" library (like Qt or GTK+) .. but adding support for different backend-models (via the new MVC stuff) should be possible, i hope -- that is the idea at least :) 23:42:14 p_l: if i were being truthful i might have said "tokyocabinet", but i'm too tired to mess with another FFI for another month at least :-D 23:42:32 fusss: Ah, I heard of that one. Nice too 23:42:36 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 23:42:50 otoh, I'd prefer to avoid MySQL as far as I can 23:43:03 lnostdal: have you seen some of the "rails type" web frameworks? scaffold generation cuts time like nothing 23:43:58 scaffold? I don't think I used scaffolding in a long time... 23:44:02 i've heard the term "scaffolding" mentioned in context of mvc .. what is it? 23:44:25 lnostdal: Basically, you take the schema from db and generate automatic CRUD interface for it 23:44:43 and by scaffold i mean the ability of the web framework to auto generate the apporpriate "views" of each database record. say, you have a column named "id", it would display that as a number. a date column is displayed as html calendar, etc. 23:44:50 Sometimes it's worth it, sometimes it's not 23:45:20 for a lot of record-oriented applications, it's certainly a good thing 23:45:56 the web framework generates app/index, app/add, app/edit/, app/delete for each model "app", and the URLs work as expected. ZERO manual labor. 23:46:28 fusss: Still, depends on what you are trying to achieve 23:46:54 each application has an associated database spec file; you can remove the app directory to anywhere in the system, and you will still be able to run it and access it as example.com/app :-) 23:47:12 fusss: Have you used Merb? Or only Rails? 23:48:04 p_l: i will answer that question if everybody promises not to laugh 23:48:10 CakePHP :-( 23:48:13 I'm personally looking for something like Merb for CL - Rails has way to heavy design model (and AR sucks. Truly) 23:48:13 -!- manic12_ [i=user@c-98-222-75-188.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:48:31 fusss: Did you *had* to or simply didn't bother with anything else? 23:48:40 (i.e. outside PHP) 23:48:48 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:49:05 ok, sounds very high-level .. if i understand this, i am still working on a level or a couple of levels below this 23:49:11 isomer [n=isomer@74.210.117.27] has joined #lisp 23:49:14 With usocket, how do you tell if a connection is closed? 23:49:19 how do i express a disjoint union in common lisp? 23:49:41 had to my friend. my project got scraped the last minute because they said the wanted something "supported". since then i had a chat with Tech.Coop and drew said i could put their name on my finished projects as a "support" company. 23:50:32 fusss: Then I am not going to laugh. 23:50:32 (or variant records) 23:50:32 disumu [n=disumu@p57A25946.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:51:09 mbac: everything you wanted about sets is in FSet. very clean library. 23:52:08 meingbg: you read from it until you get an end-of-file signal 23:52:29 mbac: http://common-lisp.net/project/fset/ 23:53:14 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 23:53:16 -!- froog___ is now known as froog 23:53:17 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:19 i guess i mean something closer to an enum 23:53:57 but not quite. i want to say this thing called node and this thing called leaf are collectively called tree 23:54:06 fusss: I never got to evaluate my capabilities with Rails/Merb commercially because: a) no client I could find would be broad minded enough b) I couldn't find affordable hosting to get around (a) 23:54:07 fe[nl]ix: That's what they said on their web page as well. But if I don't want to wait for a read, I need to use listen, which will tell me there's no data to be read although the connectio is closed. 23:55:24 mbac: did you try modeling that with CLOS? (defclass tree () ()) (defclass node (tree) ((value :initarg :value :accessor node-value))) (defclass leaf (tree) ..) .. 23:55:41 i'm rather anti objects 23:55:49 ;) 23:55:54 meingbg: do you want nonblocking sockets ? 23:55:54 structs? 23:55:58 hmm 23:56:03 afk 23:56:41 lists? says with a :node :leaf car, and you have your tree-p prediatecate test as (member (car input) (list :node :tree)) or some such? 23:56:46 mbtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 23:57:57 fe[nl]ix: I'm not sure weather I want nonblocking sockets, or just threads. My application is supposd to listen to a port, and pipe any inbound data to a port on another machine, while manipulating the information on the way. However, it also needs to pipe the data in the back direction, and fast - probably like 10mbit or so. 23:57:58 -!- rcy` [n=rcy@shop.freegeekvancouver.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:58:04 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:58:18 ok, so, for instance, i want to say this is a list of cars, and for each list element there is a list of car properties, such as the car make, model, and color 23:58:50 s/car/vehicle/ 23:59:23 i don't want to use strings to represent colors if the language could enforce a set of valid colors 23:59:40 mbac: can't you use keywords :-) 23:59:53 "keywords" ?