00:00:06 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:01:48 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:02:10 jso [n=user@151.159.200.89] has joined #lisp 00:02:39 -!- jso is now known as Guest84036 00:03:11 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:03:22 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:05:27 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-124-223.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:06:59 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:12:42 -!- Guest84036 [n=user@151.159.200.89] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:17:31 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:17:45 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 00:18:38 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:18:38 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:20:09 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:22:00 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-050-220.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:42 Lillin^ [n=lillin@211.201.172.41] has joined #lisp 00:30:55 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:07 kpreid__ [n=kpreid@pool-71-125-72-225.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:14 S11001001: You just have to set the syntax of [ to that of ( 00:32:43 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-27-126.dip.osnanet.de] has quit ["http://github.com/bakkdoor/rswing/"] 00:34:09 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:35:01 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-058-169.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:18 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:36:43 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 00:37:21 -!- appletizer [i=a@82-46-31-101.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:38:31 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-252.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:39:29 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:54 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:11 but the syntax is CLSQL 00:45:09 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:45:22 -!- bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:46:31 bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:47:26 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-71-251-38-191.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:49:34 S11001001: If cl-indents works correctly, setting the syntax-entry of ?\[ to be "(" should make it work 00:50:08 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 00:51:27 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:33 oh, you don't mean the readtable ;) 00:52:30 accidentally, not 00:57:45 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 00:58:40 -!- crod [n=cmell@d288be-026.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 00:58:53 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:37 exit 01:00:40 -!- mozzyb [n=mozzyb@196.80-203-61.nextgentel.com] has quit ["leaving"] 01:00:58 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:01:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-71-125-74-235.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:44 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:02:45 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:02:54 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.168.94] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:05:50 Sort of an unclear question, but does anyone have an example of lisp doing low-level stuff? 01:08:11 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 01:09:31 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:09:38 Quadrescence: Movitz? some of Genera code might also come in handy. 01:10:34 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-32.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:56 asddsa 01:11:03 sorry, bad wifi 01:11:42 evening 01:14:03 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-16-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:40 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-50-105.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.13/2008103105]"] 01:16:19 p_l: I'll take a look. I'm just interested in seeing what it looks like. I'd especially interested to see C more-or-less "emulated" in lisp. 01:17:13 Quadrescence: search for sbcl-os, I think you should be able to find some lisp code of it 01:17:24 madnificent: Thanks. 01:17:36 -!- kpreid__ [n=kpreid@pool-71-125-72-225.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:18:11 Quadrescence: that 'think' is to be taken literally. I have seen some source of it, so it must exist 01:19:38 Quadrescence: allso, there is GOAL (Game Object Assembly Lisp). That clearly isn't Common Lisp, but it might suit the (unknown) problem at hand 01:19:59 madnificent: There's no problem. Just purely curiosity. 01:20:51 Is GOAL accessible? 01:21:09 And don't you need a PS2 to run it? 01:21:20 *_3b* has never seen more than short pieces of example code for it (if even that) 01:22:02 <_3b> and wouldn't it be a ps2 dev kit (or at least the test version)? 01:22:47 I thought so, but I'm not at all sure 01:25:39 apparantly it is PS2 only (which surprises me, it shouldn't be that hard to port it) 01:25:48 port to what? 01:26:26 *_3b* would expect it to be hard to port (the ps2 part at least) 01:26:28 -!- cpape [n=user@p5484DAC2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:26:41 <_3b> presumably the host side would be reasonably easy 01:27:03 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 01:27:45 ahaas: x86. Yet again, I haven't read much about it, the machine-code used should be very small. 01:28:47 I'm only aware of GOAL as a Lisp that could be run on PS2 and make use of that custom architecture. What would be the benefit of running it on x86? 01:28:49 jackdaw pasted "loop" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71109 01:29:08 I haven't heard anything about the language that wasn't specific to the hardware. 01:29:10 noob question, why isn't the cons part in the if actually doing anything? 01:29:43 if i put the print in, then i get the right numbers 01:30:30 ahaas: memory management is closer to the user (making it faster) and it was generally built for a more imperative coding style (altough this has more to do with the coding style, than the language at hand) 01:30:58 madnificent: Do you know where I can read more about it? 01:31:34 <_3b> jackdaw: it is, but you discard what it does 01:31:39 ahaas: I found some minor info on wikipedia. I've read about it before, but I can't find any sources about it any more -_- (I'm searching btw) 01:31:44 I've only seen it mentioned a couple of times and not with any detail about the language, only superficial stuff. 01:31:52 _3b oh, should i be using append instead? 01:32:02 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:33:23 <_3b> jackdaw: push would be faster, and reverse it before you return it if order matters 01:33:30 you can push to lists? cool 01:33:42 <_3b> jackdaw: or use the COLLECT keyword to LOOP 01:34:00 _3b, thanks so much 01:34:12 I like how SBCL actively makes benchmarking graphs. It seems they care about performance a lot. :> 01:34:13 <_3b> jackdaw: PUSH adds it to the beginning, APPEND adds to the end, which means it has to iterate over the entire list each time you add it, which would be slow 01:34:16 _3b, i was searching for something like push for aages, i i even used push in some other thing 01:34:32 _3b right you don't want to search for the end of the list all the time, bonza. thanks for the help :) 01:35:38 what's the macro to benchmark a funcion? 01:35:40 function 01:35:41 even 01:35:46 <_3b> TIME ? 01:36:02 <_3b> sbcl has a few profilers if you need more detail also 01:36:03 thanks, i guess my questions are pretty dumb, i just started today 01:36:11 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.137.244] has joined #lisp 01:36:24 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 01:37:55 whatever, everyone's all about the (setf (cdr tail) (setf tail (list newobj))) 01:38:08 <_3b> dumb questions are OK, as long as you learn from the answers :) 01:38:10 ahaas: can't find much about goal anymore. I rember reading that they wanted to open it up, after they had to use different technologies (meaning: no lisp) from Sony... Now I wonder where I got that whole mess in my head 01:38:22 <_3b> S11001001: easier to just use LOOP COLLECT :p 01:38:35 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:38:48 <_3b> madnificent: seems like there would be lots of dev kit NDA in the way :( 01:39:01 madnificent: Let me know if you ever come across anything. I was going to say that I'd be surprised if it was ever released. 01:39:01 <_3b> though seem to remember sony opening up PS2 dev stuff recently 01:39:29 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:39:38 madnificent: But, I'd love to see code snippets or more exposition on the features. 01:39:46 _3b: that is why I assumed it to be ported to another system 01:39:59 _3b: Do you work in games? 01:40:10 <_3b> ahaas: depends on how you define 'work' :) 01:40:27 madnificent: I believe Naughty Dog is still using Lisp, but not GOAL, and not for the main architecture. 01:40:38 _3b: lucky guess: internet company that makes web-games? 01:40:54 *_3b* got annoyed with the industry a while back, so hasn't been employed by a game dev in a while... still want to do indie stuff though 01:41:11 ahaas: nope, they were moving from that. The developer of GOAL doesn't work there any more. 01:41:57 madnificent: They gave a presentation last year about using Lisp for their object system in their games. (I thought it was Naughty Dog). 01:42:48 _3b: if you're looking for games te be made, I know someone (not me) that's willing to spend time to create them. I have been discussing the use of a high-level (lisp) language for the communication about the workings of the game with him. At first hand, something like that seems possible (and it may speed up the development process) 01:44:04 <_3b> madnificent: not sure i'd use lisp at the engine level, but that is mainly due to not wanting to write a whole engine if i can avoid it :) 01:44:23 <_3b> (unless someone wants to fund a lisp game engine) 01:44:41 *sykopomp* has been having a lot of fun writing a game engine 01:44:48 *sykopomp* is obviously a masochist 01:45:13 <_3b> sykopomp: my objection is time/budget more than technical :) 01:45:35 ths_ [n=ths@X4d53.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:45:45 _3b: the only lisp I get to write is in my spare time 01:46:17 oh, Naughty Dog's new stuff is in Scheme 01:46:40 but, it's a system for data objects, not engine 01:46:53 _3b: my masochist comment is also about time/budget : 01:46:55 ahaas: source? 01:47:00 :-\ I wish I could make a living out of this. 01:47:12 madnificent: http://www.naughtydog.com/corporate/press/GDC%202008/AdventuresInDataCompilation.pdf 01:49:56 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:50:10 ahaas: interesting 01:50:35 sykopomp: if there would be better libraries for game development in lisp, it could be possible 01:50:45 *_3b* needs to go to gdc more often... haven't gone to one in years :( 01:50:50 madnificent: I went to that conference, but did not see that session. However, in the next session I overheard two guys talking about it... 01:51:03 ahaas: so sad! 01:51:15 you couldn't have been closer to miss it :P 01:51:27 One guy was telling the other how great the presentation was, but how ridiculous it was that they are using Lisp... 01:51:32 <_3b> heh 01:51:33 sykopomp: my guess is that these libraries will arise. I don't believe a language like lisp will not rise in times like these 01:51:46 he said, "Why would use a markup language for an object system?!" 01:51:53 ahaas: LoL 01:52:00 hahaha what 01:52:25 I mean, apart from the idea that a markup language is great as an object system... 01:52:26 <_< 01:52:35 I didn't think it was worth saying anything. 01:52:43 you did the right thing. 01:53:00 madnificent: I love writing libraries. I just don't think people would like them. 01:53:04 I had no idea that session was going on or was about Lisp. I must've been focused on something else. 01:53:23 madnificent: but there's already a library that links up with SDL, which I figure I'll look into at some point. 01:54:06 I wish there was something like Pygame for Lisp, but lispbuilder-sdl seems pretty good. Pygame is just an extra layer on SDL for Python, btw. 01:54:24 pygame sounds familiar 01:54:26 another one like that: I'm building a raytracer in lisp for a school project. The questions I had were mind-bogging. (as in: but do you have objects in CL? or can you have a loop in lisp? But it is an interpreted language...) 01:54:41 I remember a lib for python that let you write a tetris clone in 10 lines. 01:55:06 tetris isn't a high bar 01:55:08 madnificent: Gotta love that. How's your raytracer going? 01:55:14 <_3b> yeah, python seems to have some nice quick to use game libs 01:55:16 I whish we had rails in lisp. That'd make my life funnier 01:55:27 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 01:55:31 madnificent: Lisp on Lines >_> 01:55:36 (although 10 lines is neat) 01:55:42 I mean, it's being worked on. 01:55:48 TDT [n=dthole@57.sub-75-192-0.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 01:56:16 <_3b> lisp seems more focused on the high end of the curve, which can be kind of annoying when you want to work on the other end :) 01:56:31 clarify? 01:57:05 <_3b> lisp has lots of features that help with simplifying the super complicated, but stuff that is already simple tends to be harder than it should be 01:57:10 sykopomp: due to a major time-shortage (which is this fault), it will only have minor features. On top of that, it is much slower than the Java version. But due to some mechanical optimizations in a limited set of functions, I can reach a speed of about 70% of what they get in Java. 01:57:34 -!- ths [n=ths@X6b7e.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:36 sykopomp: interesting 01:57:55 <_3b> madnificent: feel free to lisppaste the hotspots, at least a few of us like optimizing things :) 01:58:05 _3b: strange. I've never gotten that impression. Maybe if you gave me an example I'd see that. 01:59:07 _3b: If I have some time for new optimizations, I will do that :D 01:59:25 oh no, sorry... that is not allowed by the professor 01:59:36 madnificent: that sounds pretty good. I'm sure you'd get some attention if you posted the work somewhere (once you can, if you want to) and asking for comments :) 01:59:43 <_3b> sykopomp: can't think of anything at the moment 02:00:09 madnificent: will you still have to keep it closed off when you're done with the assignment? Obviously, it makes no sense to get other people working on your homework. 02:00:44 TDT_ [n=dthole@85.sub-75-211-96.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 02:00:50 <_3b> madnificent: oh well, not like i don't have enough projects i should be working on instead anyway :) 02:01:02 a-s [n=user@92.80.98.132] has joined #lisp 02:01:10 *_3b* checks in some more features to the flash compiler thing. 02:01:30 _3b: you know, writing a simple graphical engine might be fun. 02:01:38 _3b: I've been following your discussion about that. It sounds neat. I work in Flash every day. 02:01:46 sykopomp: no, I may do with it whatever I want then. The code resembles spaghetti though, so I think I won't just open it with my name on it. 02:01:47 <_3b> sykopomp: yeah, gfx engines are fun :) 02:02:00 one step at a time, I'd say. I'm sure something like pygame could be thrown together in a sane amount of time (specially if it piggybacks on lispbuilder-sdl or similar) 02:02:05 It deserves a rewrite, when time lets me do it 02:02:06 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:02:13 <_3b> ahaas: yeah, i should let you look at my as3 test stuff and see if you can figure out any ways to improve it 02:02:16 hey, I had another quick question about the use of the (concatenate) method. I read more about this function, and it returns a sequence. The problem I'm seeing is that if there's no fill pointer, I can't use vector-pop and push. Is there another option for concatenate to keep an array (through make-array with a fill pointer) that will allow push/pop/etc? 02:02:41 _3b: I've actually never worked with gfx stuff. My engine is strictly text-based, and does a lot of networking >_> 02:02:57 and now it's going to be a bit of a bigger pain, because I'm thinking of writing a prototype system for it. Heh. 02:03:12 <_3b> sykopomp: ah, that part is probably fun too, i've tended towards the graphics side mostly 02:03:17 so working with gfx seems a little appealing. It might be easier, to an extent :| 02:03:17 _3b: Ok. Ping me if you ever want another pair of eyes. 02:03:17 okay, way past bedtime and I'm having a (Java, ugh) project to defend in the morning 02:03:22 good luck all! 02:03:31 may the braces be with you 02:03:31 night madnificent 02:04:28 or at least a different level of abstraction is needed. I think there's like 1 or 2 places where numbers are used. 02:05:08 _3b: I think my short term goal with Lisp + Flash would just be to use Lisp as a preprocessor. I'm currently using CPP and feel like I'm wasting my time. 02:05:21 -!- eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:05:23 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:30 <_3b> yeah, that sounds annoying 02:05:55 <_3b> metaprogramming C++/lua was what got me into lisp originally 02:06:55 lua sounds neat 02:07:08 <_3b> got annoyed duplicating definitions between the 2, and had started generating stuff from lua code before i decided it was getting too silly and started looking for a better solution :) 02:07:18 TDT__ [n=dthole@74.sub-75-211-18.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 02:07:30 <_3b> yeah, but no neater than lisp, and with lisp i don't need the C/C++ side nearly as much 02:07:51 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C5D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:07:55 I heard Spore is largely written in a variant of Lua 02:08:09 Dang this net connection, disconnected me a bit there. 02:08:14 <_3b> probably, lua seems pretty popular with game devs 02:08:31 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:08:41 Is there something I'm missing with the option for (concatenate) as I was talking about before? 02:08:47 If someone answered it already, I apologize for that 02:08:50 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:03 TDT__: there were no answers yet I think 02:09:11 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:16 phadthai: ah ok 02:09:18 TDT__: I guess that you could write a concatenate replacement as well 02:09:26 <_3b> TDT__: need more info about what you are trying to do 02:09:30 phadthai: Yeah, I was contempating that, could just write a macro. 02:10:02 I started trying to make games in Lisp with lispbuilder-sdl, but I've been stuck on some very basic design decisions. I'm not sure of the Lispy way to do a lot of things I am accustomed to. 02:10:49 TDT___ [n=dthole@14.sub-75-193-125.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 02:11:15 ahaas: oh? 02:11:21 <_3b> yeah, i keep changing my mind about how to organize stuff in my sdl/glfw code :) 02:11:22 _3b: Well, I'm just mostly curious about how (concatenate) works. For example say I do (make-array 5 :fill-pointer 0) and do a few vector-pushes and all that, then to do a concatenate with another vector and make it so that it has a fill-pointer so I can keep doing more vector-pushes. 02:11:38 and dang net again, I'm really sorry for the constant disconnects and connects. My net here is horribly bad right now 02:12:20 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.174.243] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:12:27 Yeah, I haven't had much trouble with other non-game Lisp stuff, but I've been making games in Flash for almost 10 years, so it's hard to step outside what I'm used to. 02:12:34 I probably could wirte a macro yet, but figured if I could do a (concatenate 'some-special-vector a b) have it effectively work. 02:12:36 beekle [n=ted@c-98-227-158-124.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:01 I'm used to a more constrained OOP system. 02:13:02 ahaas: I've never actually written a game. I keep seeing tetris/breakout as suggestions. Is that really a nice place to start? 02:13:29 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:13:58 <_3b> TDT: maybe just expand the first vector, and use setf subseq? 02:13:59 sykopomp: I rekon hangman is a good one to start on 02:14:01 sykopomp: did you see the thing that came across reddit a week or two ago that provided a whole sequence of games to write 02:14:02 sykopomp: Sure, those are good beginnings. The important thing is to do something that you can actually get done. 02:14:16 gigamonkey: I don't read reddit, but I'd love a link... 02:14:48 ahaas: I would love to do something I could get done. I started this summer with wanting to write a small text adventure as a first app, and I'm still not done with it :( 02:15:23 gigamonkey: which reddit? 02:15:28 My philosophy on game development is that you cannot possibly start work on a game that is /too/ small. 02:15:59 sykopomp: http://web.archive.org/web/20051104034215/www.lupinegames.com/articles/path_to_dev.html 02:16:03 ahaas: Yea defo, lots of people make the mistake of trying to make "the next quake" as their first game 02:16:11 gigamonkey: thank you 02:16:24 rvirding: programming, I think. 02:16:29 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 02:16:48 ok, thank you, will check there 02:17:46 <_3b> cool, maybe i'll try some of those to test my flash stuff at some point :) 02:17:55 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:20:16 rvirding: or you could just look at the link I gave to sykopomp ;-) 02:21:27 yes, I checked that and saw it had a lot of tips in int. 02:22:13 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:22:32 it's good to hear there's other people here interested in game dev. I'm always afraid of ending up like what I perceive as a bunch of annoying little twerps that only started coding because they liked games. >_> My classes are full of 'em, and they tend to write pretty awful stuff. Meh. 02:23:07 Tordek [n=tordek@host61.190-137-180.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 02:23:29 <_3b> heh, whole gme industry is full of em :p 02:23:47 yeaaahhh 02:24:09 I think I might end up being a low-level sysadmin for a living and keeping my code sacred with fun 02:24:21 sykopomp: the games industry is surprisingly full of people who don't like games :) 02:24:26 (I was/am one of them) 02:24:28 -!- TDT___ [n=dthole@14.sub-75-193-125.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:24:44 -!- beekur [n=ted@h-67-102-38-185.chcgilgm.covad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:24:46 hmm, I have a library which takes a c string of wchar_t as a parameter 02:24:58 <_3b> yeah, that's the other problem :p 02:25:00 anyone know how I would give it one with CFFI? 02:25:11 <_3b> babel might help 02:27:05 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-73.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:24 -!- TDT [n=dthole@57.sub-75-192-0.myvzw.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:29:12 -!- TDT_ [n=dthole@85.sub-75-211-96.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:30:46 -!- TDT__ [n=dthole@74.sub-75-211-18.myvzw.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:31:00 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:31:29 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:31:52 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 02:34:42 rsynnott: you've got grovel and babel if you're running cffi; I would grovel the size, map 2byte to UTF16 and 4byte to UCS4, and stick that type as the :encoding type option to string everywhere 02:35:39 Why is lisp compiling my function the first time every time? D: I am not used to having working code. 02:38:01 nolbat [n=hask@h63n7c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 02:38:15 define-compiler-macro, whats that for? some optimization? 02:39:53 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:40:06 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:42:07 -!- nolbat [n=hask@h63n7c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:43:02 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:44:54 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:55 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:53 nolbat: yes. 02:47:18 You get to define a code generator that can replace a function call with some other code. 02:48:30 benny` [n=benny@i577A0D49.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 02:49:02 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A0D49.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:49:18 -!- froog is now known as froog_ 02:51:19 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.71.111] has joined #lisp 02:55:13 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-071-076-000-061.sc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:05:37 <_3b> whats a good name for a version of &rest that gives an array instead of a list? 03:06:01 nolbat [n=hask@h63n7c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 03:06:10 define-compiler-macro, is that for speedups? 03:06:22 _3b: &arrest 03:06:35 <_3b> nolbat: usually 03:06:59 <_3b> nolbat: i don't think the spec requires them to be expanded, so actually changing the semantics with a compiler macro would be a bad idea 03:08:29 <_3b> stassats: that might work, so far i'd thought of %rest, &rest*, and &arest 03:09:14 % and * aren't very mnemonic 03:10:07 <_3b> they sort of are, both are commonly used to mark variants 03:10:46 im trnaslating a raytracer from common lisp to clojure. what is minusp? 03:10:53 negative? 03:11:18 froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 03:11:40 <_3b> yeah, less than 0 03:12:35 <_3b> (well, not exactly negative, (minusp -0.0) is false) 03:13:33 <_3b> i suppose i could just be verbose and use &array-rest 03:14:07 <_3b> though that would probably be annoying to type 03:15:08 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:17:14 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 03:17:30 (defun tracer (p &key (res 1)) 03:17:50 what does that mean? it takes a p and an optional key? that is 1 by default? 03:19:05 <_3b> yeah, call it with (tracer value-for-p), or (tracer value-for-p :res value-for-res) 03:19:07 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:19:27 nolbat: haven't you yet read practical common lisp? 03:19:32 no 03:19:36 im learning clojure 03:19:47 not cl, just converting a program from cl to clojure 03:20:17 and what does (/ res) mean ? (/ 1 res)? 03:20:39 yes it seems 03:21:08 you'd better go read it, instead of asking hear 03:21:34 g'day 03:21:35 <_3b> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/X_Symbol.htm might also be useful 03:26:20 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:26:20 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.98.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:30:53 -!- holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:32:23 _3b: callet &arrest to confuse your future users. 03:33:01 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:33:08 <_3b> gigamonkey: heh, i'm my primary user at the moment, so cufising would be annoying :p 03:33:19 <_3b> *confusing 03:33:36 ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.70.205] has joined #lisp 03:33:53 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.71.111] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 03:33:58 -!- ebzzry_ is now known as ebzzry 03:34:31 <_3b> i suppose i could just use &rest from some other package than CL: 03:35:49 array:&rest ? 03:36:19 Aside from clbuild, what other apps/libs out there that does a similar job? 03:36:45 <_3b> 03:37:13 <_3b> stassats: was thinking more just a different package for stuff that is sort of but not quite CL 03:39:12 <_3b> then one could :use CL to get CL style, or :use NOT-CL and get the native flash behavior 03:39:38 nolbat: have you seen the thing where someone has translated some of (all?) the code from PCL into Clojure? 03:39:45 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host61.190-137-180.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:42:05 yes 03:42:26 practical common lisp is an oxymoron though 03:42:40 clojure is a practical lisp, cl not so much 03:44:09 <_3b> nolbat: trolling isn't a good way to get help :/ 03:44:41 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-71-125-74-235.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:44:59 nolbat: are you here to troll and say stupid things, or are you here asking for help? 03:45:19 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:47:05 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp89-110-51-223.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 03:48:29 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:49:21 That's a new one. 03:49:22 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:35 -!- keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:50:03 ebzzry: I don't think there are any other. 03:51:04 So is there a SLIME equivalent for Clojure yet? 03:51:20 <_3b> doesn't slime work with it? 03:51:56 _3b: could be. I have barely looked at Clojure and not at the internals of SLIME in quite some time. 03:52:39 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-16-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:52:56 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-16-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:29 gigamonkey: I thought SLIME worked with Clojure? I'm probably confusing it with something else. 03:53:36 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:53:37 It does. 03:54:15 Out of the box? Or do I need to get something beyond stock Clojure and stock SLIME? 03:54:56 keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:54:57 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0D49.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:55:22 gigamonkey: http://bc.tech.coop/blog/081023.html 03:55:34 clojure-mode and swank-clojure seems to be the key. 03:57:21 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:57:32 -!- bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:57:42 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:58:25 benny [n=benny@i577A0CE4.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:58:56 clojure-box is prepackaged slime+swank+clojure 03:59:16 very nice, also ships with contributed libs(but you have to installt he java-jars youtself) 03:59:26 Only problem is that it requires java. 03:59:31 (if s 10 20) 03:59:39 schme_: OK. :-) 03:59:40 what evalues to false there? 04:00:17 ebzzry: asdf-install does somewhat the same I suppose. 04:00:28 <_3b> NIL is interpreted as false if that is what you mean 04:00:42 <_3b> the whole form evaluates to 20 if s is nil 04:01:33 schme_: Yes, only that asdf-install most (if not all) of the time, fetches release versions or the version as specified by the cliki page. 04:02:02 nolbat: how can you translate from language while you don't know its basics? 04:02:21 ebzzry: Yes.. while clbuild fetches the latest version, and I don't seem to remember asdf-install being good on the dependencies :) 04:02:54 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:03:20 nolbat: Go read up on the basics of lisp. Good to know you don't even know how a conditional works :) 04:03:52 I finally figured out the j in Clojure 04:03:53 hah! 04:04:30 yay! I can now produce a dialog box on almost any platform from lisp 04:04:44 rsynnott: How you do that? 04:04:48 now all I need is to provide functionality other than dialog boxes 04:05:02 writing a wxwidgets binding 04:05:28 (the old one was unmaintained and more or less unusable these days) 04:05:48 oh cools. 04:05:50 schme_: OK. I was looking for something that would get the latest version, or if something is better than clbuild in that regard. 04:05:55 with unicode, and everything :P http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_H0m-YylXpxc/SS4XlHUm5UI/AAAAAAAAAko/R5CKKMIUBCY/s400/Picture+38.png 04:06:29 rsynnott: Nice work! 04:07:27 MVC with "filter-feature" (or proxy? .. i'm running out of ideas wrt. naming..) added: http://sw2.nostdal.org/mvc-container-app source-code: http://common-lisp.net/~lnostdal/programming/lisp/symbolicweb/examples/mvc-container.lisp .. still messy and needs more work, but shows the basic idea (i think ...) 04:07:49 rsynnott: I remember looking at wxcl. It seemed very non-documented, and yes.. a bit unmaintained. I coulnd't figure out how to do anything. Nice to see GUI stuff happening :) 04:08:28 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 04:08:32 yep, it had no docs, hadn't changed since 2005, didn't do unicode, and doesn't support recent wxWidgets 04:09:03 (which is a problem, as older versions of wxWidgets don't support MacOS Leopard, for instance) 04:09:09 ouch. 04:09:41 So by next week you have the wx backend for McCLIM ready? 04:10:10 fortunately, wxHaskell had a much better branch of wxc (the C interface they both use to talk to wxWidgets, which is C++) 04:10:22 oh :) 04:10:23 so I stole that and am now writing bindings for it 04:10:27 Excellent. 04:10:34 stealing at its best. 04:10:37 nah, someone else can do that; I don't like CLIM very much 04:10:46 Tordek [n=tordek@host61.190-137-180.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 04:10:49 :( 04:10:54 /ignore rsynnott 04:11:00 heheh 04:11:08 I really can't say. It's the only thing I've used. 04:11:36 I looked at wxcl, couldn't get anything done for lack of information. Poked around some CL GTK things. much the same. CLIM won by default. 04:11:37 same here, i haven't used any other gui toolkit 04:11:37 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:38 (the major annoying bit was that the unicode version ONLY supports unicode, as w_char cstrings 04:11:54 this wasn't made entirely obvious 04:12:05 Ouch :) 04:12:22 well right. time for work. Have a good one. 04:13:33 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:20:15 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:22:15 keram [n=oof@cpe-76-87-179-96.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:22:17 kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-52-183.client.stsn.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:47 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 04:43:14 froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 04:43:36 [Head|Rest] [i=kvirc@217.149.187.88] has joined #lisp 04:50:33 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has joined #lisp 04:51:46 Hello .. how would one trace functions which have been defined with labels or flet macro? a general function can be traced with the the following "(trace func-name)" 04:52:00 notsonerdysunny: implementation dependant. 04:52:16 how would I do it in sbcl? 04:54:41 -!- stragerLN [n=strager@c-98-210-158-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:55:09 I believe (trace :encapsulate nil :function #'foo) (inside the scope of the local functions but before calling them) might work. 04:57:22 thanks pkhoung .. I will try it.. 04:58:03 it definitely doesn't work on darwin, but I think it's supposed to work on linux. 04:58:24 -!- froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:58:31 oh .. 04:59:12 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:00:25 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:02:32 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has joined #lisp 05:02:45 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:04:53 I have a sexp evaluating in the slime-sbcl-repl 05:05:12 How would I interrupt it .. ctrl-c ctrl-b isn't working.. 05:06:41 I usually use C-c C-c 05:07:17 That does not seem to be working either .. 05:07:42 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 05:07:43 I am using xemacs if that makes a difference.. 05:11:16 Good morning. 05:11:20 morning beach. 05:11:47 -!- nolbat [n=hask@h63n7c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [] 05:15:35 phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has joined #lisp 05:16:27 Good morning beach 05:16:40 morning all .. 05:18:47 quit 05:18:53 argh. darn x-mouse 05:19:28 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:20:43 gah! -2°C outside. 05:20:53 Lovely. Snow? 05:24:45 tic: No, when it is cold, it is clear (or vice-versa) so no snow. 05:26:36 is it customary to ACK messages in #lisp? It seems that it only wastes precious screen space. :) 05:27:37 what kind of messages are you talking about? 05:28:09 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 05:28:32 beach, like me saying "OK" to what you said about cold and snow. 05:28:59 OK :) 05:31:39 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:45 beach, as I've understood it, you gave your last lecture a while ago. So what now? Lisp hacking en masse? 05:33:25 tic: some admin stuff must be done, a few internship presentations, meetings to prepare next semester, talk in Paris, then in 4 weeks it is off to Vietnam for a month. 05:34:12 beach, is the Paris talk Lisp-related? 05:35:10 tic: yeah, a bit strange thoug. 05:35:12 nimo [n=user@116.225.242.92] has joined #lisp 05:36:22 beach, yes? :) 05:36:49 gonzojive [n=red@ip98-169-24-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:49 tic: it's a math conference about relations. I don't really fit it, but I think the organizer likes me :) 05:37:22 beach, oh, I see. Well, sounds good regardless! 05:38:28 to foreigners, it sounds a bit glamorous to go to Paris, but we do that quite often so it just becomes another job, with the additional pain to take the train to Paris. 05:39:01 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 05:41:18 I guess I should also work on my 972 accumulated email messages :( 05:41:58 You should switch to LysKOM. 05:42:28 what is that? 05:43:31 It's a mix between IM, E-mail, IRC and a BBS. Based on KOM, invented in Linköping by Lysator. 05:43:51 (and to stay slightly on topic, the main client everyone use is written in elisp) 05:43:53 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:44:18 anyway, it's next to impossible to keep track of messages in a sane way, so those not dealt with immediately are basically lost. :) 05:44:24 Sounds very good. Is it going to read and answer my emails for me? 05:44:33 maybe, if you connect eliza to it. 05:44:47 -!- phax [n=phax@unaffiliated/phax] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:45:33 -!- jackdaw [n=chris@cpe-098-122-166-119.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:48:20 *tic* heads off to work 05:52:10 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:53:33 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 05:58:23 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:59:39 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 06:03:24 nad1m [n=nad1m@S0106001ff3f75136.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:04:07 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:12:52 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 06:13:38 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:18:07 elurin [n=user@85.99.168.94] has joined #lisp 06:30:10 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:51 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:38:08 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 06:38:16 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:25 -!- nad1m [n=nad1m@S0106001ff3f75136.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [] 07:01:04 nad1m [n=nad1m@S0106001ff3f75136.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 07:01:11 -!- nad1m [n=nad1m@S0106001ff3f75136.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 07:03:39 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C5D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:11:43 good morning 07:18:06 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:20:23 buon giorno (!) 07:20:54 hello H4ns 07:22:58 hello #lisp'ers 07:28:04 hi cmm 07:29:39 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit ["brb"] 07:29:58 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student166-32.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 07:33:11 Good morning everyone. 07:33:24 rehi 07:33:37 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:39:40 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-189-40.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:24 mega1 [n=mega@3e70ca0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:40:43 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:44:10 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:45:39 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 07:47:38 eevar [n=snuffpup@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:50:30 hello spiaggia 08:00:13 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-189-40.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:02:35 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 08:06:31 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:06:57 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.137.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection 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[n=phao@20158132063.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 08:38:40 -!- andrewy [i=andrewy@209.126.180.153] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:39:20 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 08:40:54 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-31-186.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 08:41:19 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:41:37 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:44:14 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:49:46 kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-05d495cb33d7d2d0] has joined #lisp 08:49:53 hello lispers 08:51:32 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 08:51:43 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:51:48 -!- rlpowell_ is now known as rlpowell 08:54:31 -!- olejorgenb [i=bronner@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:55:33 mathrick [n=mathrick@87.54.43.37] has joined 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specifiers (DECLAIM) sbcl supports and where are they explained in further detail? 09:48:54 aren't those the same as in the hyperspec? 09:49:39 clhs 3.3 09:49:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_c.htm 09:52:48 thanks, some of them are linked via PROCLAIM, but none of them by DECLAIM, sorry for the noise 09:55:35 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 10:00:41 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:02:25 user___: (sb-cltl2:declaration-information 'optimize) 10:02:50 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0FF0E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:03:22 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C5D8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:03:29 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 10:08:02 user___: in addition to clhs, you will find sbcl specific declarations in the sbcl manual. 10:08:11 except for the undocumented ones :-) 10:08:21 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined 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10:32:08 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:33:48 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 10:33:53 g'day 10:35:23 -!- abend_ [n=sasha@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:39:52 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:42 hello, plage. 10:42:44 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 10:46:33 are the data structures in lisp? 10:46:46 LCO: ? 10:47:03 i mean, is possible to implement them 10:47:09 ? 10:47:15 what kind of data structures are you talking about? 10:47:41 dictionary, tree... 10:48:27 there are many ways 10:48:27 LCO: Of course! They either exist, have been separately implemented in independent libraries, or can be implmented using existing ones. 10:48:58 LCO: did you have reasons to believe otherwise? 10:49:26 i'm just curious, i never wrote sth in lisp (: 10:49:34 minion: tell LCO about cl-containers 10:49:35 LCO: please look at cl-containers: CL-containers adds binary search trees, red-black trees, sparse arrays, and other useful containers. http://www.cliki.net/cl-containers 10:49:48 minion: please tell LCO about PCL 10:49:49 LCO: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 10:50:08 LCO: are you planning to learn? 10:50:23 maybe... 10:50:36 LCO: have a look at 10:50:40 cltl2-section Data Types 10:50:41 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node15.html 10:50:47 for an overview 10:50:50 i have to do a dictionary, and i'm choosing the right prog. language 10:51:36 is hashtable suitable for your dictionary? 10:51:37 LCO, (make-hash-table) ? 10:51:42 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_mk_has.htm 10:51:50 yes 10:52:05 hash table and AVL and sth. else 10:52:06 -!- vedm_ [n=vedm@79-100-115-9.btc-net.bg] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:53:34 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:54:49 How fast are operations compared to other languages? 10:55:19 it depends on implementation 10:56:14 Yes, depents on many things,... 10:56:28 Maybe it's better if i ask google about that (: 10:56:58 i don't think google knows 10:57:22 you have to test it yourself for your problem 10:58:21 LCO, faster than Python, slower than C. 10:58:41 where to download a interpreter, compiler? 10:58:48 www.sbcl.org 10:59:06 depending on your platform, though. Many on Linux use SBCL. 10:59:37 -!- netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 10:59:49 what about win 11:00:07 beeka [n=ted@c-98-227-158-124.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:08 oh, yes, i found it on that page 11:00:11 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:00:35 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 11:01:13 thanks 4 all, havo to go to university now... bye 11:01:35 LCO: Verna doesn't agree, SBCL generates faster code than gcc. 11:01:41 LCO: http://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/research/verna.06.imecs.pdf 11:02:43 great than! 11:02:56 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X4d53.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:03:20 matimago, the "JIT"? 11:03:33 The pixel manipulation code. 11:04:03 ah, that one. 11:04:12 I was thinking of the paper "when lisp is faster than C" (or so) 11:04:19 vedm [n=vedm@77-85-120-17.btc-net.bg] has joined #lisp 11:04:59 -!- LCO [n=LCO@89-212-135-13.dynamic.dsl.t-2.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:06:36 minion: tell tic about speed 11:06:36 tic: please look at speed: "How to make Lisp go faster than C" is at http://www.lrde.epita.fr/~didier/research/verna.06.imecs.pdf 11:10:38 ths [n=ths@p549AF509.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:11:40 -!- vedm [n=vedm@77-85-120-17.btc-net.bg] has quit [] 11:12:08 -!- beekle [n=ted@c-98-227-158-124.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:12:18 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:14:23 beekle [n=ted@c-98-227-158-124.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:20 setf [i=54a66eb1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7f5ebd973cc3f95a] has joined #lisp 11:17:10 |Grub| [i=kvirc@217.149.187.88] has joined #lisp 11:17:18 tic: here's the other one: http://www.cs.bham.ac.uk/~wbl/biblio/gecco2006/docs/p957.pdf 11:17:39 Is that a new version of the paper? I thought I had seen one from 1996? which used CMUCL I think 11:17:54 -!- beeka [n=ted@c-98-227-158-124.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:21:12 those papers are pretty recent, interesting. 11:21:43 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:22:01 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:23:24 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:25:40 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 11:26:58 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 11:30:23 p_l: can you dig up a pointer for the old one? 11:31:30 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:32:00 michaelw: I had it on the hdd of my other computer (can't access it now), but I'll check 11:32:38 it might be also that I misremember the date 11:32:50 (it also used a pixel manipulation code, IIRC) 11:33:16 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:34:06 amusingly, my reverse-complement write-up is first google hit for "lisp as fast as c" :) 11:34:14 Krystof [i=csr21@138.37.63.164] has joined #lisp 11:35:54 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:36:34 ok, looks like I remembered the date wrong, it was the one matimago gave 11:36:48 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["CANada > AmeriCANTs"] 11:37:19 *p_l* is bad with dates - a decade forward or backward is nothing ;-) 11:40:32 -!- [Head|Rest] [i=kvirc@217.149.187.88] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:43:55 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:46:32 -!- beekle is now known as beekur 11:47:57 yango_ [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 11:47:58 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:50:31 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:50:50 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 11:50:59 hello 11:51:38 -!- nimo [n=user@116.225.242.92] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:54:50 -!- yango_ is now known as yango 12:01:17 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:01:38 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 12:02:15 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:03:20 michaelw, thanks 12:04:24 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 12:06:24 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 12:07:38 -!- setf [i=54a66eb1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-7f5ebd973cc3f95a] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 12:09:52 abend_ [n=sasha@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 12:20:41 yango_ [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 12:21:41 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [No route to host] 12:24:30 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:24:47 setf [i=54a66eb1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2aa603e56b939472] has joined #lisp 12:26:31 -!- skv [n=sasha@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:30:40 fbred [i=bredeli@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 12:31:23 hey! sbcl-question: is it possible to see what line in a file a run-time error occured? i find it hard to decide just from a stack trace 12:31:29 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:31:49 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:33:06 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.137.244] has joined #lisp 12:33:48 brill [n=brill@0x57386060.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:33:55 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 12:34:57 -!- _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit ["ircII EPIC4-2.6 -- Are we there yet?"] 12:35:42 fbred: in the stack frame, hit "v" (assuming you're using slime) 12:37:28 fbred: I don't now if sbcl keeps track of the line numbers. 12:37:28 fbred: but in general, in lisp it's hard to do that, because lisp sources are NOT text files. 12:37:28 fbred: lisp sources are sexps. 12:37:28 fbred: and sexps can be of course generated from text files, but more often, they're generated dynamically by macros. 12:37:50 Krystof, i'm just using the sbcl shell 12:38:14 matimago, but at least i should get the name of the parent macro or something 12:38:30 fbred: not even, because the macro has been expanded before compiling the code. 12:39:03 fbred: you could try to disable the compiler and run on the interpreter. What I do is just to use clisp and avoid compiling the code I'm debugging. 12:39:07 isn't it possible to use some kind of debugging-symbols? 12:39:48 there is a command called "source" in sbcl, but I don't know how to compile with debugging symbols 12:39:51 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:40:07 fbred: also, did you compile with (declaim (optimize (debug 3) (speed 0) (safety 3) (space 0))) ? 12:40:22 nope 12:40:33 the interpreter in sbcl is noticeably worse than the compiler at helping to debug 12:40:36 If you want to debug, it'd be nice to tell the compiler so. 12:40:49 Ok, so no interpreter in sbcl. 12:40:54 however, compiling with the default compiler policy is enough to tell you which file particular functions are in 12:41:10 the real answer is not to use the raw sbcl shell unless you know what you're doing 12:41:12 -!- yango_ is now known as yango 12:41:20 matimago, ah, i just put that in the top of my file? will try 12:42:01 fbred: I put it in ~/.sbclrc 12:42:37 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:43:13 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 12:44:01 Krystof, hm, clisp is better? I've heard that sbcl had more verbose warnings and errors, so I just started using that 12:44:47 fbred: slime is what you want. 12:45:03 fbred: debugging lisp on the command line is not a productive approach. 12:45:10 yeah, but i'm a vim-user 12:45:19 fbred: *shrug* 12:45:20 thats probably true 12:45:30 evolve or die 12:45:37 fbred: no emacs -> no slime -> no lisp. 12:46:26 not to mention cookies 12:46:28 i see.. 12:47:49 i'll check it out 12:47:50 fbred: Or write SLIMV 12:47:56 _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 12:47:58 *p_l* ducks before he gets shot 12:48:31 yeah, there's some attempts to create something like slime for vim, but they're all abandoned afaik 12:48:59 minion: limp? 12:49:00 limp: Limp, a Lisp IDE for vim. http://www.cliki.net/limp 12:50:01 nibbles [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/nibbless] has joined #lisp 12:50:51 stassats, is it stable enough to be productive? 12:51:20 fbred: ask tic, the author 12:51:35 (let ((stuff (should-be-constant))) 12:51:37 (setf (third stuff) 'bizarre)) 12:51:38 why after the let expression do I need to open two parenthesis ? 12:52:11 nibbles (let (foo) foo) => nil 12:52:14 because it has such syntax 12:52:34 nibbles: (let (foo bar) (list foo bar)) => (nil nil) 12:53:16 but if I do something like (let foo 5) => 5 .. no error 12:53:35 ok, thanks for the help guys 12:53:48 nibbles: depends on your compiler. mine complains that the syntax is invalid. 12:54:02 if your implementation doesn't throw error, it doesn't mean that it is standard 12:54:11 hmm right.. thanks then 12:56:11 *stassats* recalls that Arc has some weird let 12:56:57 ilSignorCarlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:57:34 nibbles: you don't _need_ to open two parentheses. If you only want to declare three variables, x, y and z, you can write: (let (x y z) ...) 12:57:35 nibbles: but if in addition to declaring them you want to bind them to some default value, then you have to group the variables with their default values: (let ((x val1) (y val2) (z val3)) ...) 12:58:20 -!- drwhen is now known as BPS 12:58:21 nibbles: if you could write (let x ...) then you would have to write (let x (let y (let z ...))) ; (let (x y z) ...) is shorter, clearer, and has less parentheses. 12:58:25 -!- BPS is now known as drwhen 12:58:58 nibbles: the Experienced Old Ones Who Invented Lisp knew that usually you have to declare more than one variable. 12:59:27 ilSignor1arlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:59:38 arc has (let x 1 (+ x 1)) and (with (x 1 y 2) (+ x y) 13:00:20 matimago: oh well.. I see.. that's a much better explanation, thank you. 13:00:35 <_deepfire> I wonder how the thousand year language author feels about Clojure. 13:01:22 _deepfire: most comments from old-time lispers i heard were positive 13:01:40 Guys, I coded something in lisp last night that I couldn't correctly code over several weeks in about 3 other langs. 13:01:50 :o 13:01:51 Quadrescence, cool. got source? 13:02:25 fbred, meep? (also, see #limp) 13:02:36 tic: I'm not really done with it, but yeah, I got source. :o I'll post it when it's more polished. Seeing that I'll actually get something done with lisp, I'll be able to post it. 13:02:45 And I'd want to post it to get tips too. 13:05:24 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:05:33 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:06:00 Why wouldn't (defun mutate-me (x) (setf x (1+ x))) actually permanently change x? 13:06:23 (well, by x, of course I mean whatever argument you pass) 13:06:29 Quadrescence, you need to define a setf function. 13:06:33 <_deepfire> H4ns, I mean, I'd like to know why Graham didn't do something like a declaration of Arc's obsoletion, or something along these lines. 13:06:34 Quadrescence, or well, a macro. 13:07:05 Quadrescence: it changes binding, not to what it pointing 13:07:42 stassats: And the binding is only changed within that scope, no? 13:07:52 i.e., within the function 13:07:54 lexical binding, yes 13:08:01 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0CE4.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:08:11 there are mutable objects, you can change them 13:08:28 (this would explain some unexpected behavior) 13:08:29 like lists, you can change list passed to function 13:09:35 stassats: How would do the function above then (for numbers)? 13:09:41 s/do/write/ 13:10:16 what tic said, you can use macro 13:10:37 Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has joined #lisp 13:10:38 or put your number inside a mutable object 13:10:59 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:11:08 or, and that is propably the best way, return the new value of the object and reassign the variable in the caller, if required 13:11:28 H4ns: That's how I've been beginning to go about things. 13:11:38 But it gets a little tedious. 13:11:40 you rarely want to setf things anyway. 13:11:47 Right, right. 13:12:17 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:13:10 Quadrescence: writing in functional style is a good default practice 13:14:24 locklace: Yes. I can see why mutation would be appropriate to avoid doing a lot of garbage collecting or using a lot of memory (depending on what's being done). 13:15:08 functional style good when it's good 13:15:15 Quadrescence: correct, beautiful, fast. in that order. 13:15:31 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@138.37.63.164] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:15:33 H4ns: Indeed. :) 13:15:34 Quadrescence: you can break the practice if you have a good specific reason and know exactly what trade-off you're making 13:16:32 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [] 13:17:33 Thing is, instead of storing intermediate results of computations, you can often just use them directly. Thus eliminating the need for setfs 13:18:42 (at least that's my impression) 13:19:02 Quadrescence: have a look at: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/d141c5636559ba3b 13:19:13 Quadrescence: and: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/1799d5db9267c523 13:19:25 matimago: Alright 13:21:24 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:22:43 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-134.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:22:47 matimago: Interesting, thanks. :) 13:25:27 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:26:57 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:01 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 13:36:12 cracki [n=cracki@44-082.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:36:29 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:37:52 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 13:38:59 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 13:39:35 -!- _mathrick [n=mathrick@87.54.43.37] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:39:58 -!- Athas [n=athas@192.38.109.188] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:41:15 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:41:26 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:43:41 tayssir [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has joined #lisp 13:45:34 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 13:45:35 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 13:45:40 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 13:46:09 mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has joined #lisp 13:46:55 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-082.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 13:47:47 -!- setf [i=54a66eb1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2aa603e56b939472] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:48:24 -!- nibbles [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/nibbless] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:48:46 nibbles [n=chatzill@143.106.242.196] has joined #lisp 13:52:01 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 13:52:26 _mathrick [n=mathrick@87.54.43.37] has joined #lisp 13:52:29 -!- nibbles [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/nibbless] has quit [Client Quit] 13:54:03 prxq [n=mommer@BAI3ec1.bai.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 13:54:07 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-16-216.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:57:28 vasa [n=vasa@mm-74-85-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 13:57:39 hi all 13:57:56 Hi! 13:57:59 does lisp have function for parsing double and float values from strings? 13:58:11 vasa: (read-from-string "1.2d3") 13:58:30 minion: parse-number 13:58:31 parse-number: parse-number is a Library of functions which accept an arbitrary string and attempt to parse it into one of the standard Common Lisp number types, if possible, or else it signals an error of type invalid-number. http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 13:58:47 thx 13:58:53 æ-) 14:02:29 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 14:04:40 beekle [n=ted@c-98-227-158-124.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:13 *H4ns* learned: PRINC can be very slow 14:07:58 vasa: you can also use the standard function read-from-string which may be adequate for your needs 14:08:03 clhs read-from-string 14:08:03 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_fro.htm 14:08:10 -!- froog___ is now known as froog 14:08:28 but you get the whole Lisp reader with it, so you need to be careful 14:08:52 locklace=> yes... i need only parsing of real values 14:09:31 "being careful" means that if the strings are coming from untrusted sources, they should be inspected to make sure that they only contain characters that constitute a number 14:09:50 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:10:09 vasa: (values (read-from-string "3.1415")) => 3.1415 14:10:47 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:23 vasa: (let ((object (let ((*read-eval* nil) (*readtable* (copy-readtable nil))) (read-from-string untrusted-string)))) (etypecase object (number (coerce object 'double-float)))) 14:13:26 O_o 14:13:28 thanks 14:13:32 good code for me 14:16:24 -!- _mathrick [n=mathrick@87.54.43.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:19:15 _mathrick [n=mathrick@87.54.43.37] has joined #lisp 14:19:19 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:58 -!- beekur [n=ted@c-98-227-158-124.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:21:29 Krystof [i=csr21@138.37.63.164] has joined #lisp 14:21:34 fluke777 [n=tomas@80.188.50.122] has joined #lisp 14:21:39 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:22:46 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb419a.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:23:31 Hi everybody, can someone suggest any literature on interpret compiler construction in Lisp. I am aware, that a number of books are available on this topic, but majority of them uses C/C++ languages which I am not very fond of. Thanks in advance 14:24:15 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:24:20 minion: LiSP? 14:24:20 LiSP: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 14:24:31 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:25:44 fluke777: notice that the latest edition of the Dragon Book covers garbage collection and dynamic languages in a couple of chapters. 14:26:27 fluke777: but I highly recommand LiSP above cited, and also SICP covers the matters in part. 14:26:28 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 14:26:36 minion: tell fluke777 about sicp 14:26:36 fluke777: direct your attention towards sicp: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available gratis from (HTML), (texinfo) and (XHTML, PDF). Accompanying video lectures are available gratis at 14:26:46 stassats: Thanks I know about this book, but it is good enough. I mean I am quite new to this topic, so I need something gentle and instructive, if that is possible. 14:27:07 danlei [n=user@pD9E2EF37.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:22 stassats: In my last comment I am reffering to LISP 14:27:27 fluke777: LiSP is quite gentle and instructive, since it starts with a very simple interpreter, and chapter by chapter it improves it, transforms it in a compiler, etc. 14:28:09 fluke777: what would you find a steep curve in LiSP? 14:28:18 matimago: Great, I have SICP and have watched the lecture, but I got an opinion, that it just scrateches the surface. I will take a look on LISP 14:28:49 LiSP << notice the small 'i' ;-) 14:29:02 matimago: aha :-) 14:29:49 Thanks to you all and have a fine day 14:31:04 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 14:32:23 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-42-153.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:32:43 matimago: what is the implementation language in the book? does it cover memory management (your own vm), cpu architecture, assembly construction, etc? 14:33:00 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:34:24 hypno: The dragon book doesn't use any implementation language. Algorithms are written in English/pseudo-code. 14:34:45 matimago: i ment LiSP tho. 14:34:52 LiSP uses scheme. 14:35:17 With a little incursion in lambda-calculus to show how to denote the semantics of a language. 14:35:33 (which it translates immediately to scheme, to get an implementation :-)) 14:35:40 hypno: The language used in LiSP is scheme. It does however implement a wide variety of lisp interpreters. No memory management, all is built "on top" of a scheme. It does cover C generating though. 14:35:40 oh. can you really deal with pointers and low-level cpu related hackery in scheme? 14:35:52 No pointers and low-leveling. 14:35:59 a:(( 14:36:09 But a very nice read. 14:36:20 There's a new better edition too. 14:36:36 Well, low level stuff for a lisp implementation are not the same as low level stuff for a C implementation... 14:36:51 when you translate your lisp code into some IR, you can apply to it general algorithms, right? so dragon book is still useful 14:37:03 It deals with the important low level things, such as environments, "stack" frames, etc. 14:37:13 http://paracamplus.com/?CGIRunMode=book&urn=Cours/LiSP/4 the new edition, much recommended. 14:37:29 Yes, if you want to write a good lisp compiler, both books are a must (and more of course). 14:37:48 *matimago* had more than ten compiler books once upon a time... 14:40:16 Which ones? 14:40:18 http://paracamplus.com/Books/Cours/LiSP/4/premiereCouverture.png 14:40:20 makes so much sense 14:40:21 :O 14:40:26 matimago: Gries? 14:40:38 matimago: the white one (what's it called again)? 14:40:57 matimago: writing interactive compilers and interpreters (forget the author)? 14:41:05 two dragon books? 14:41:08 Quadrescence: Well as much sense as the cover of a book normally does. 14:41:18 matimago: Muchnick? 14:41:51 Quadrescence: http://paracamplus.com/Books/Cours/LiSP/4/extrait.pdf 14:43:12 All the book I could find on the subject in the 1980's. Unfortunately, most of them were lost in a flood. 14:43:23 schme_ those Principes d'implementation .... is the nw edition of LiSP? I guess it is not available in english is it? 14:43:33 fluke777: Exactly. 14:43:46 fluke777: not yet, but there's not a lot of changes. The ToC is identical. 14:44:00 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:44:00 schme_: You said previously, it is much better 14:44:21 I believe I said "better", not "much better" ;) 14:44:41 -!- Guest81121 is now known as pkhuong 14:44:48 For one thing it's not in english, that's a definitive gain. 14:44:58 (english is a pain to read, write and talk) 14:45:08 schme_: seems like it is maybe time to dust my very rusty french :-) 14:45:23 and some other niceties that I don't quite remember, but it was better nonetheless. 14:45:34 fluke777: Or just buy/steal the previous edition. 14:45:54 schme_: Je voudrais une copie de ce livre. :[ 14:46:36 Well go order one :) 14:46:49 I love the easy solutions. :) 14:47:38 schme_: watch what you are saying. 14:48:06 schme_: it is well known that the translation is better than the original. 14:48:25 spiaggia: ? 14:48:36 *rsynnott* is slightly surprised that utf-32 is still in use 14:48:43 schme_: are you saying you don't agree? 14:49:04 spiaggia: What translation? 14:49:10 of LiSP 14:49:18 spiaggia: There is no translation of the latest edition. 14:49:29 right, I was talking about the first edition 14:49:37 Ok. 14:49:46 And I'm saying the latest edition is a better read. 14:49:54 Ah, that might be possible 14:50:14 For one thing it saves me from reading english ;) 14:50:22 schme_: requires you to be able to read french quite well, though 14:50:30 Sure. 14:50:34 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:40 *rsynnott* can just about read a newspaper in french, but probably not a technical text 14:50:43 "the code is english" ;) 14:53:56 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:54:34 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:32 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:56:14 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:35 matimago: hmm. ok, so at least some "semi-low level things" then. the "stack frame" concept has been somewhat mysterious to me. 15:00:09 and writing a lisp-like low level language has always seemed easier to me anyway: couldnt you effectively just wrap opcodes and asm instructions around in standard CL, binary formats, etc just to get a lispy version of C? 15:00:14 -!- kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-05d495cb33d7d2d0] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:05:54 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:06:04 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.137.244] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:06:13 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:09:41 -!- brill [n=brill@0x57386060.hrnqu2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 15:14:36 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:15:01 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:16:38 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 15:18:41 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:24:41 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:59 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-73.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 15:26:11 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:26:57 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [No route to host] 15:29:53 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 15:30:42 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:31:35 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:33:27 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [] 15:33:29 -!- mechine [n=mutable@dsl-220-253-70-173.NSW.netspace.net.au] has quit ["reboot D:<"] 15:34:19 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 15:35:53 hypno: guess so. In the worst case, you can use a macro that calls the asm from C (and puts the C in a temporary file). Then compile and use CFFI to call the asm... 15:39:47 deafmacro [n=user@59.92.141.57] has joined #lisp 15:41:21 hypno: I don't quite understand what you're asking. But there's another course that introduces really easily to compiler writting, using scheme too, but generating x86 code right away. http://slesinsky.org/brian/code/test_first_compiler.html 15:45:57 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:50:19 V-ille [n=ville@dsl-olubrasgw1-febddf00-91.dhcp.inet.fi] has joined #lisp 15:52:12 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@72-255-52-183.client.stsn.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:55:16 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@36.80-203-45.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:55:31 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:57:00 madnificent: yuk 16:04:30 hypno: OpenMCL has a good LAP setup. You could layer on top of that to start. 16:04:39 s/OpenMCL/Clozure CL/ 16:05:00 -!- _mathrick [n=mathrick@87.54.43.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:05:14 rsynnott: that'd be correct 16:09:42 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@151.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:10:04 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@151.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 16:10:18 matimago: ah, that looks like exactly what i'm looking for. 16:10:49 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:13:12 <_3b> hypno: see also http://www.cs.indiana.edu/~aghuloum/compilers-tutorial-2006-09-16.pdf by the same author 16:15:05 _3b: ah, nice. thanks. :) 16:17:00 jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-76-191.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 16:18:12 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E4616D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:15 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.168.94] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:18:28 elurin [n=user@85.99.168.94] has joined #lisp 16:19:35 xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:20:48 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-76-191.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Client Quit] 16:21:24 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 16:26:04 -!- beekle [n=ted@c-98-227-158-124.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:27:09 kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-72-68-51-48.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:02 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:30:32 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 16:30:54 buccia [n=buccia@host36-160-dynamic.21-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:31:19 durka [n=durka@pool-68-163-213-183.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:59 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:32:05 -!- prxq [n=mommer@BAI3ec1.bai.pppool.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:32:30 -!- phao [n=phao@20158132063.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:37:21 phao [n=phao@20158132063.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 16:38:14 lnostdal [i=lnostdal@149-191-122.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 16:44:50 -!- Bucciarati [n=buccia@host105-129-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:21 yango_ [n=yango@133.60.216.87.static.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:46:09 morning turkeys 16:46:41 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@138.37.63.164] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:47:17 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:59 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209.6.216.149] has quit [] 16:50:34 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CD76.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:37 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:51:27 josemanuel [n=josemanu@202.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:54:54 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 16:55:35 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 16:57:09 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:02:36 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:05:37 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:08:19 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 17:08:43 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 17:10:56 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:11:19 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E4616D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:18 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:13:40 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 17:14:21 Hello. I would like to hard-code a bunch of text into a hunchentoot web-page. 17:18:33 mogunus: What's the problem? 17:18:41 I'm unsure how to do that. 17:18:51 Should I just generate a bunch of html with the :p tag? 17:19:25 mogunus: I'm not sure I understand. The page is dynamic, but you have a large body of static text? 17:19:51 mogunus: Hunchentoot handlers just return strings, so you can compose that string however you like. 17:19:51 ahaas: Yes, five or six paragraphs worth. 17:20:24 sohail [n=Sohail@d207-81-121-15.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 17:22:30 mogunus: I think it might be an idea to use something like cl-who which generates the HTML 17:22:45 mogunus: But it's up to you really 17:23:54 -!- fluke777 [n=tomas@80.188.50.122] has quit [] 17:23:57 mogunus: Are you using cl-who for the output? 17:24:11 I'm using the parenscript HTML generator 17:24:17 is cl-who much better? 17:25:13 mogunus: I'm not familiar with the parenscript HTML generator, but it sounds like your problem is unrelated to Hunchentoot. 17:27:03 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 17:27:07 Ah. I'm just unsure how to decomepose the problem, in terms of my hunchentoot dispatch functions. I have some boilerplate header and footer, and a menue for each page. 17:27:31 Greetings! Happy Turkey Day to those in the U-S-A! 17:28:13 Also, how do I properly escape quotation characters? 17:28:29 -!- deafmacro [n=user@59.92.141.57] has left #lisp 17:28:32 mogunus: It sounds like your problem is how to build the string using your html generation package. 17:29:08 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 17:29:17 If you were using CL-WHO, I would tell you that you could wrap the text in a (str yourtext) for example. 17:29:30 mogunus: http://kzar.co.uk/lisp-install/server.lisp 17:29:32 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:29:46 mogunus: That might help, it's probably done in a crappy way but it works alright 17:30:00 ahaas: rather (esc yourtext) 17:30:08 lilac [n=tla@kde/lilachaze] has joined #lisp 17:32:19 Style question: Is it confusing if I define accessors to a geometric vector object as one-origin since standard vectors and arrays are zero-origin? 17:32:48 The motivation to have it one-origin is simply to correspond to references. 17:32:57 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:34:56 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:32 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:35:41 stassats: I was explaining about embedding a string in a cl-who macro, not escaping it. 17:36:22 but I don't even know if that's necessary if the string is a literal 17:36:47 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:48 ahaas: but mogunus asked about escaping, and yes, you don't need (str ..) for literals 17:38:26 stassats: I was addressing his original question. 17:41:05 mbac_ [n=mbac@vc69.vc.panix.com] has joined #lisp 17:41:59 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:45:01 <_3b> are there any better ways to implement special vars than just saving the old value, and restoring it in an unwind-protect? 17:45:05 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@202.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 17:46:32 the hyperspec says (eql "Foo" "Foo") -> true but clisp says nil 17:47:11 <_3b> mbac_: it says (eql "Foo" "Foo") 17:47:12 <_3b> (eql "Foo" "Foo") 17:47:15 <_3b> oops 17:47:17 <_3b> (eql "Foo" "Foo") 17:47:23 <_3b> bah, stupid paste 17:47:30 mbac_: then both strings are reffering to different objects 17:47:57 <_3b> "(eql "Foo" "Foo") => true OR=> false" is what it says 17:48:12 oh, you're right 17:49:09 <_3b> you usually want string= or equal for strings (or string-equal or equalp) 17:51:06 stassats, implementation detail? 17:51:39 are strings mutable by default? 17:51:45 <_3b> mbac_: it would be tru on implementations that combine identical literal strings 17:51:54 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 17:52:10 right, why wouldn't they... unless strings are mutable? 17:52:20 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 17:52:23 <_3b> literals are not supposed to be modified 17:52:39 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:52:49 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e70ca0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:53:37 <_3b> http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/03_ga.htm 17:53:40 it's awkward that (eql 1 1) is true but (eql "a" "a") is nil 17:54:12 terribly awkward 17:54:30 <_3b> mbac_: (eql #\a #\a) is true though 17:54:30 actually, the second can be true 17:55:02 it implies two different types of literal 17:55:19 no, it doesn't 17:55:32 hasn't someone already told you that (eql "a" "a") can be true? 17:55:45 yeah, someone did 17:55:51 <_3b> eql compares more atomic things (in the indivisible sense, not the ATOM sense) 17:56:26 <_3b> equal looks into the contents of composite things, like the characters in a string 17:56:31 eql does with strings what eq does with them 17:57:07 why do some implementations make all references to 1 the same but not all references to "foo" the same? 17:57:27 actually, that's not what i'm asking 17:57:28 because they don't have to? 17:57:30 i'm asking why is it allowed? 17:57:45 <_3b> numbers are handled specially in eql, (eq 1 1) is allowed to be false 17:58:14 mbac_: More freedom for the compiler writer? 17:58:39 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-136-88.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:22 topo [n=topo@210.pool85-58-26.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 17:59:55 s/compiler writer/implementer 17:59:59 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 18:00:24 mbac_: An implementation may even exhibit different behaviours depending on whether your code is compiled or not. 18:00:30 language wart! 18:01:57 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 18:03:48 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:23 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:04:51 mbac: umm .. no. 18:04:54 No, it makes perfect sense. 18:05:46 if it does you haven't given me a convincing reason 18:06:47 koning_r1bot [n=aap@dhcp-077-248-142-146.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 18:07:05 mbac_: are you trying to argue that the semantics of lisps various equality operators don't meet your expectations, and that is somehow the fault of CL and not you? 18:07:27 yes. 18:07:37 you haven't given me a convincing reason 18:07:47 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-136-88.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:07:59 it foils my expectations. that's a fault. 18:08:03 in my opinion, anyway. 18:08:04 you fault 18:08:11 your fault. 18:08:25 whatever you say, at least i exist. ;) 18:08:44 <_3b> mbac_: well, there are 3 useful comparisons of strings, and EQ is more or less an implementation level thing, so it makes sense for them to be EQL, EQUAL and EQUALP instead of EQ, EQL, and EQUAL 18:08:51 mbac_: EQ compares by object identity (with the explicit exception of numbers and characters---this exception has some historical reasons, mostly), EQL is EQ + works on numbers+chars, so really compares by object identity) 18:09:24 do you expect everything new you learn to conform to the expectation you already have? Seem like you would be a poor learner. that is no fault of a programming language. 18:09:42 mbac_: (eq "FOO" "FOO"), the literal may be evaluated twice, and hence result in the allocation of different strings, i.e. of two distinct objects 18:10:09 mbac_: A compiler is allowed to coalesce both occurences of the literal which is reason why (eql "foo" "foo") may also return T. 18:10:27 interning all strings would require a lot of memory, and you could never GC them, so infinite memory as well. 18:11:14 mbac_: (EQL, and EQ, can be used interchangeably on strings) 18:11:23 <_3b> mbac_: would you expect (eql "foo" (copy-seq "foo")) to be true? 18:11:24 what thwarts my expectations is not so much that eql compares references as identical but different literals 18:11:36 _3b, no 18:11:55 well, maybe, i'm not sure what copy-seq does 18:12:21 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 18:12:32 <_3b> copy-seq copies a sequence, (copy-seq "foo") = "foo" 18:12:35 mbac, "Foo" may just be syntax for (make-array 3 :element-type 'character :initial-contents '(#\F #\o #\o)) 18:12:50 mbac_: why not just expect it to do something, and if iyou're wrong blame the language :P 18:13:17 *drewc* is just waking up, so a little grumpy 18:13:52 drewc, my first answer /was/ no ;) 18:14:23 well.. i expected using strings for keys in alists and hashes to just work... and it didn't, and it took my a while to figure it out 18:14:36 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:14:43 they do just work 18:14:45 mbac_: It might help to distinguish between (a) things that have reader syntax, and (b) things that the evaluator finds in a quoted/self-evaluating position 18:14:49 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@dhcp-077-248-142-146.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:15:12 for some definition of just 18:15:26 koning_r1bot: it's your fault you forgot to know about and say :test #'string= 18:15:42 koning_r1bot: I agree with that. :) 18:16:02 well i don't care whose fault it is, it just sucked 18:16:04 :P 18:16:16 <_3b> you could meaningfully use the actual string as a key too though, so having both is nice 18:16:25 kpreid: i don't quite understand you 18:16:26 -!- xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.11/0000000000]"] 18:16:28 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-09bf74871e061003] has joined #lisp 18:17:12 you know, this is all because i got burned by the ocaml compare 18:17:15 yes, you could actually mean 'hash on _this_ string' and not "hash on an equality predicate that compares the characters of a string' 18:17:52 it took me a few days to figure out my program was broken because 0L = 0 was evaluating to false 18:18:06 and now i'm taking it out on lisp too 18:18:33 er, because 0L = 0L was evaluating false 18:18:36 the reason lisp has so many equality operators is that the programmer might actually mean something and like to express it, rather than have the compiler guess or enforce its own meaning. 18:19:16 drewc, totally fine by me, i simply expect compare to compare values most of the time 18:19:44 mbac_: and i expect programmers to understand the language they are programming in. 18:19:57 mbac_: well, (= 0 0) is really true. 18:20:10 the only problem is that (eq 0 0) may not be true 18:20:16 drewc, understanding is hard when the rules are fuzzy 18:20:28 mbac_: the rules are not fuzzy. 18:20:31 clhs eq 18:20:32 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_eq.htm 18:20:35 clhs eql 18:20:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_eql.htm 18:20:37 they're very clear about how they're fuzzy! 18:20:40 clhs equal 18:20:40 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_equal.htm 18:20:59 there is no fuzziness! 18:22:14 *ehu* agrees with drewc 18:22:19 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:22:31 if you want to compare values, you use the value comparison operator. 18:22:51 ok, but, assoc, for instance, internally uses eql by default 18:22:55 don't expect the pointer comparison operator to compare values .. it's not like we named them all '=' or something. 18:23:07 mbac_: yes, it does. 18:23:10 clhs assoc 18:23:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_assocc.htm 18:23:19 mbac_: string=, char= ... all very clear to me. 18:23:59 mbac_ if you want it more specific or explicit: use :test 18:24:36 i know that. now. 18:25:05 well, there's a learning curve to every language 18:25:13 mbac_: are you complaining that you were not born knowing common lisp? 18:25:24 heh 18:25:56 luckily I was born knowing lisp. 18:26:02 *drewc* had to read the documentation, a bunch of books, and read/write a lot of code before he 'knew' common lisp 18:26:03 my complaint is (eql "foo" "foo") -> nil feels WRONG 18:26:19 that's the long and short of it. 18:26:39 you just need to adjust your feelings 18:26:42 mbac_ well, then your intuition hasn't developed long enough 18:26:50 mbac_: what does the "" mean? 18:26:58 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:27:06 mbac_: We've all had to go through the process of learning it (right?). If you feel bad about something, get over it for now, most of it will become clear to you whilst learing it. Most of it, you will want in other languages later. 18:27:08 my intuition is /finely/ developed 18:27:08 *lichtblau* finds it a little weird that people defend odd peculiarities of a language so vigorously, when those details most likely are just historical accidents which happened between a maclisp hacker's midnight coding session and an x3j13 meeting 18:27:10 do you understand how lisp constructs objects? 18:27:30 I don't understand what feelings have to do with programming languages 18:27:41 >>> id("foo"),id("foo") 18:27:41 (-1211834144, -1211834144) 18:27:56 that's how python treats it 18:28:02 lichtblau: much of them are useable ^_^ The source does not matter, the use dous 18:28:05 s/dous/does 18:28:33 drewc, i guess i don't, how does it construct objects? 18:28:47 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:29:46 mbac_: well, the python code you just pasted shows you understand something... are you just complaining now that eql is the default operator in most of cl's standard library? 18:29:52 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:30:04 drewc, kind of, but not really 18:30:15 because (equal "foo" "foo") looks good to me 18:30:30 what thwarts my expectations is not so much that eql compares references as identical but different literals 18:30:53 different liiterals? what does that mean exactly? 18:31:01 ok this makes sense to me 18:31:02 >>> id("foo"),id('f'+'o'+'o') 18:31:02 (-1212198720, -1212198816) 18:31:22 I think he wants the implementation to guarantee that all string literals that look the same are the same object. 18:31:24 as does the previous example where id("foo"),id("foo") were equal 18:31:56 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 18:32:33 but in common lisp, the literals "foo" and "foo" _may_ reference two different objects 18:32:53 exactly 18:33:02 and some implementations, seemingly, do guarantee it? 18:33:04 mbac_: yes .. so assume they are different objects and move on 18:33:07 1.0d0 and 1.0d0 may too 18:33:14 drewc, NO 18:33:18 it's WRONG 18:33:31 it's not wrong. 18:33:31 oh, wait 18:33:34 i changed my mind. you're right. 18:34:29 the only way to have all literals be equal is by having huge tables to make them so. 18:34:34 <_3b> i expect relying on string comparisons by object identity would be annoying anyway... the hash works fine until you try to assemble a key at runtime, that sort of thing 18:34:46 mbac_: common lisp is a standard.. it allows implementations to do things and expects the programmer to know what the standard says is portable, not what any one implementation might do. 18:35:22 mbac_: but you don't have that problem with python; it's defined by its reference implementation ... 18:35:42 splittist [n=splittis@34.12.3.213.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:35:46 morning 18:35:48 now that i remember that lisp has a compile-time evaluation phase as well as a run-time evaluation phase, it doesn't seem so wrong 18:35:52 intuitively 18:35:57 the implementation _can_ collapse literals as an efficiency hack, but is not required to. 18:36:11 mbac_: it was your expectations that were wrong? 18:36:27 maybe, or it might have something to do with the turkey being done. 18:36:57 thanks for sharing. :D 18:38:05 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:38:20 nibbles [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/nibbless] has joined #lisp 18:38:45 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-67-161-89-244.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:39:31 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has left #lisp 18:42:07 -!- orwxell is now known as diophantine 18:43:28 -!- netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 18:48:23 why cant a (print) be inside of a loop ? 18:48:41 <_3b> it can't? 18:48:51 (loop for i from 1 to 10 (print "hi")) 18:49:01 wrong syntax maybe ? 18:49:09 you forgot the `do' 18:49:09 <_3b> yeah, add a DO before (print) 18:49:47 oh thanks.. i'm new at lisp and the example of the for didnt have the do.. hehe thanks 18:50:04 <_3b> FOR and DO are independent 18:50:30 nibbles: this is how LOOP works - regular forms to be executed go under a DO clause 18:51:16 and how do I know when I need a DO clause ? 18:51:35 <_3b> whenever you want to DO something :) 18:51:45 it makes sense :) 18:52:16 nibbles: whenever what you want to put in the loop isnt a LOOP clause such as FOR or WITH (or DO itself) or COLLECT, but *is* a regular CL form like (print "hi") 18:52:45 josemanuel [n=josemanu@113.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:53:11 well thats a good answer! thanks 18:56:53 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:56:59 pr0teus [n=chatzill@189.24.197.39] has joined #lisp 18:58:32 -!- yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has quit ["  ."] 18:59:18 nibbles: and don't forget that a DO (in a LOOP) is an implicit PROGN (although you might then need an END to make it clear to the compiler - or yourself- when your DO ends). 19:03:13 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:05:00 <_3b> isn't END for the conditionals, not DO? 19:05:01 rushfan_home [n=greg@adsl-76-241-107-135.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:30 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:05:32 I'm going to try to install ECL (and maybe GCL and CLISP) on my iphone. If anyone is interested in how it goes, give me a holler. 19:06:26 hey guys i need some little help here... 19:06:37 i`m using read-line 19:06:58 and then i`m trying to compare if is a string in this read line but isnt work 19:07:19 Fare [n=Fare@cpe-72-224-62-193.nycap.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:07:42 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:53 _3b: Yes. You are correct, and I am peddling misleading advice. Please ignore me, everyone! 19:07:54 Lispbox says to me the readline isnt a value 19:08:12 any idea ? 19:08:43 <_3b> lisppaste: url 19:08:43 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 19:08:51 <_3b> pr0teus: paste your code there ^^ 19:09:00 _3b: http://rafb.net/p/2VmrT165.html 19:09:40 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:10:09 <_3b> pr0teus: you should use an editor that knows how to indent lisp code nicely :) 19:10:30 <_3b> and don't put ) by themselves 19:10:37 pr0teus: yes, or do it by hand 19:10:54 uhmm sorry guys 19:11:11 i`m noob in lisp 19:11:15 also, (assert (stringp string) ...) is better written (check-type string string) 19:11:54 <_3b> (equal x 0) -> (zerop x) 19:13:32 -!- |Grub| [i=kvirc@217.149.187.88] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:14:05 -!- yango_ [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:14:45 Ok, I have to write a function that produces all possible binary trees of height n. Im not asking anyone to do the assignment for me, but if anyone could give me a pointer to get me started (I can produce a complete binary tree of height n). Im using lists as my binary tree, so (cons (cons empty 'leaf empty) empty empty) is an example of a tree 19:14:48 <_3b> pr0teus: the real-line in djow is teh problem? 19:15:10 sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has joined #lisp 19:15:25 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 19:16:03 yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has joined #lisp 19:16:05 _3b yeas cause i use the read-line and then i want to compare if in there is an especif word.. 19:16:15 <_3b> pr0teus: what do you do to test it, what do you expect to happen, and what does happen? 19:16:57 _3b when i pass this value for the Opniao function Lisp returns me Busca-Lista has no values.. 19:17:16 and shoud be the N 19:17:36 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:18:34 <_3b> what is seach? 19:19:11 _3B should be Searc i must be edited when i paste to the site 19:19:12 sorry 19:19:37 <_3b> where is it defined? 19:19:58 search ? i think is basic function it inst ? 19:19:58 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 19:20:09 <_3b> oh, right 19:20:45 if is use ( search "ok" "some prhase with ok") 19:20:52 retuns me a number.. thats right 19:21:36 but i want to use this with ( search "ok" N ) where N is the typed phrase in (djow) 19:22:16 <_3b> you only call that when N is "tchau" or "adeus" though, is that what you mean? 19:22:17 and is returning variable has no Value 19:22:45 _3b, perhaps i`m not making myself clear 19:23:02 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-72-75-101-81.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:23:03 <_3b> actually, maybe the COND in opniao is wrong? 19:23:49 <_3b> are you trying to print (strtolist n)) when busca-list returns true? 19:23:57 yeah 19:24:06 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 19:24:13 exactly! 19:24:15 <_3b> if so it should be (cond ((busca-list ...) (print ...)) 19:24:26 you know what is kind of hard this language 19:24:58 <_3b> as it is, you try to return N when the variable busca-list is true, which causes the error you saw, since you don't have that as a variable 19:25:29 mogunus pasted "encoding issues" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71132 19:25:32 Hello all. I'm having trouble with character encoding. 19:25:34 ok thank you very much _3b i`ll try code a little bit more here 19:25:49 <_3b> having an editor that does indentation for you helps with that sort of thing, since you would have noticed (print ...) lining up with (cond ...) instead of being indented farther 19:26:23 Trying to generate spanish for the web using the parenscript html generator. I included the meta charset=utf-8 tag, which I thought would fix things. 19:27:09 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has left #lisp 19:28:15 Should I be using character entities, or is there a way to get my utf-8 strings directly into the web page? 19:28:24 -!- rushfan_home [n=greg@adsl-76-241-107-135.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 19:28:34 <_3b> mogunus: maybe change http://www.weitz.de/hunchentoot/#*hunchentoot-default-external-format* ? (assuming you use hunchentoot) 19:32:48 _3b: I am, but that didn't work. 19:32:51 -!- splittist [n=splittis@34.12.3.213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 19:33:27 <_3b> did you set it before starting the server? 19:33:53 No, I set it with the server running 19:34:02 I should restart it? 19:34:07 <_3b> might want to set *default-content-type* to match as well 19:34:23 <_3b> not sure if you need to, might as well try though :) 19:34:52 *_3b* sets both of those before starting server, and it works... don't know anything beyond that 19:35:23 okay, trying that now.. 19:37:54 That's weird. I clearly have other problems, it's giving me a 500 internal server error on the page I want. 19:38:18 hmmm. thanks for the help, I'll come back if I have more questions. 19:38:20 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["leaving"] 19:39:12 ehu` [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-194587f692bb8443] has joined #lisp 19:39:27 -!- Fare [n=Fare@cpe-72-224-62-193.nycap.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:40:54 _3b: Is your Flash stuff just for kicks, or do you have some other goal? 19:42:14 <_3b> ahaas: i'd like to be able to make flash apps with it at some point 19:42:48 _3b: Any specific kind of app? 19:43:17 <_3b> the specific one i'm using as an excuse to work on the compiler currently, is a flashcard app for learning japanese 19:43:37 <_3b> i'd like to do some games or prototypes with it longer term though 19:43:38 _3b: Cool! I'm interested in that as well. 19:44:54 (the learning Japanese flashcard app, that is) 19:45:35 I think I downloaded some Emacs package for that before, but I never got it set up. 19:45:36 <_3b> it might actually be to the point where i could start using it (for non-performance critical stuff at least), but i probably should clean up the ffi stuff before i start using it much 19:45:59 <_3b> (the compiler that is, haven't started the flash version of the flashcard app yet) 19:47:13 segv [n=mb@207-172-92-9.c3-0.129-ubr3.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 19:47:27 -!- segv [n=mb@207-172-92-9.c3-0.129-ubr3.lnh-129.md.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:47:28 eno [n=eno@adsl-70-137-136-221.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:59 -!- sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has quit [] 19:49:24 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:24 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net 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[n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:24 -!- p_l [n=plasek@pp82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:24 -!- cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:24 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:24 -!- luis [n=luis@r42.eu] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:24 -!- dfox__ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 19:49:29 <_3b> my test app at least looks mostly like lisp now, aside from lots of functions named by keywords :) 19:50:42 cYmen [n=cymen@squint.a-oben.org] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 pragma_ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 luis [n=luis@r42.eu] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 ltbarcly_ [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 p_l [n=plasek@pp82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 akhilleus [n=joe@206.81.49.171] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 mikezor [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 ahaas [n=ahaas@c-76-17-41-185.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.64.114] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 dfox__ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:51:52 <_3b> (the keyword function name stuff being the main problem i need to clean up with the ffi stuff, along with incomplete coverage of the flash player libs) 19:53:58 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:59 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb419a.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:56:42 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit ["Induhvidual Quote: “I don't mean to throw a wrench, I mean a monkey, into the tools.”"] 19:56:43 keithmantell [n=keithman@host81-146-19-76.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net] has joined #lisp 19:59:04 <_3b> oh yeah, i should probably look at setting up some sort of interactive dev stuff before i start anything serious too :) 19:59:16 <_3b> edit-compile-test is annoying :) 19:59:29 That would be great. 20:00:00 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 20:01:02 <_3b> yeah, haven't really looked into it enough to tell how much i'll be able to do with it though 20:01:19 BrianRice-mb_ [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:34 -!- dfox__ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [No route to host] 20:02:08 <_3b> can one .swf load another, and call functions from it? 20:02:41 -!- nibbles [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/nibbless] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:02:53 nibbles [n=chatzill@189-95-170-194.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 20:03:45 Yes, though I haven't done anything like that since several version ago. 20:04:07 frito [n=user@host81-146-19-76.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net] has joined #lisp 20:04:35 dkcl` [n=dkcl@30.66.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 20:04:37 <_3b> cool, hopefully that will be enough 20:04:40 I believe you can also create most any type of Flash object at runtime from a ByteArray, including swfs. 20:04:55 <_3b> yeah, that would be the other option 20:06:25 <_3b> current idea is to have a sort of monitor level .swf loaded, that connects to the host lisp, and either send commands to load .swf, or just send the new code directly as bytearrays, or whatever 20:06:41 BrianRice-mb__ [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:07:09 <_3b> then it is just a question of how it responds to trying to redefine functions, and whether the new code can be isolated enough to not kill the monitor app 20:07:16 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:07:49 BrianRice-mb___ [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:23 -!- pr0teus [n=chatzill@189.24.197.39] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:08:24 *_3b* has to go visit family for the holiday now though 20:08:38 _3b: enjoy 20:09:07 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@151.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:10:20 V-ille, ehu`, much lower impact than i thought for IKVM look like i have it done tonight, only 5 files changed 20:10:30 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-162.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:10:53 dmiles_afk: That's exactly the kind of impact I was assuming, nothing like "let's rewrite everything". 20:11:03 but i am failing ABS.* ENSURE-DIRRECTORIES-EXIT* 20:11:21 That's because you haven't removed the dir that's created during the tests.. 20:11:42 setf [i=54a66eb1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-073b51622f55beb5] has joined #lisp 20:11:45 About ABS.* I'm not sure. 20:12:17 hrrm i hadent failed those before but .. oh and MISC.512 crashes it 20:12:18 I do suggest that you just post the patch, if there's something wrong, we can talk about that later. 20:12:23 -!- dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:12:43 yeah i think i make a patch for this.. then we can work on it 20:13:00 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:15:54 dmiles_afk: Good idea. I'm 100% sure that ehu wants to review the patch before it's even close to getting committed. 20:16:20 -!- keithmantell [n=keithman@host81-146-19-76.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net] has left #lisp 20:16:28 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:16:33 -!- frito [n=user@host81-146-19-76.btremoteinternet-dsl.bt.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:16:52 And in order not to blame other people for the "process", *I* want to review it, too. :) 20:19:49 sent 20:19:58 dfox [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 20:20:59 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:19 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:22:40 BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.178.231.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 20:22:44 Message body is too big: 56567 bytes with a limit of 40 KB 20:23:00 there was a beautiful summary made by QPX I read on the web on how their use of Lisp backs their business. 20:23:10 like, "using new technology we can make amazing booking stuff". 20:23:29 V-ille, its so big becasue i piseted the TEXT and attached both 20:23:55 dmiles_afk: I should be receiving a moderation request now then. 20:23:58 *ehu`* looks 20:23:58 V-ille, both the .patch atteached andf put the patch in the message 20:24:04 -!- BrianRice-mb_ [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:24:11 eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.43.55] has joined #lisp 20:24:14 -!- eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.43.55] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:24:17 not yet 20:24:35 i also sent you a personal copy to 20:24:48 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:25:02 lessee: https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/confirm/armedbear-j-devel/be39cf7b576a33ac2f27b1e69f8e398a18de6081 20:25:14 thats my version of the URL 20:26:58 nope. nothing yet. 20:27:20 neither moderation nor private. I think it'll come. 20:27:46 you peeked at the URL above ehu`? 20:27:52 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@pool-72-68-51-48.nwrknj.east.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:27:56 -!- BrianRice-mb__ [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:28:14 I got the mail. 20:28:27 blitz__ [n=blitz@77.64.176.217] has joined #lisp 20:28:37 It doesn't look bad, but I want the ikvmfile functions gone from Load.java, and put to a separate file. 20:28:43 no, I didn't peek. 20:29:12 V-ille, yeah.. i can also put the stuff to Site.java as well 20:29:14 -!- BrianRice-mb___ [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:29:31 i mean remove the Site.java additions to a differnt file 20:29:39 fluke777 [n=tomas@220.231.broadband.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 20:30:09 xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:30:14 dmiles_afk: That would be good. Wherever possible, maybe we should consolidate the ikvm-specific stuff into, well, Ikvm.java. :) 20:31:58 is there a way in SBCL to get an (unsigned-byte 8) vector from foreign memory without copying every single array element? 20:32:20 ok, yeah goign to do that and fix the CL_PACKAGE thing in Nil.. since its actualy null there 20:34:16 i'm still trying to figure out the extent of the needs for ikvmFileSafe(...) basically it allows searching of the DLL and then unpacks it to a temp file.. the right thing is to return the filestream 20:34:57 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:23 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:39:13 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:40:20 ehu, resent one of nomral size 20:40:50 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:09 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:18 how from within a function, cycle across it's parameters? 20:41:54 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:45:43 -!- setf [i=54a66eb1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-073b51622f55beb5] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:46:20 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["leaving"] 20:46:58 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-139-18.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:51:22 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:51:37 JohnnyL: What do you mean? 20:52:16 BrianRice-mb_ [n=briantri@c-67-161-89-244.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:19 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 20:52:25 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.178.231.bredband.tre.se] has left #lisp 20:52:25 -!- rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["leaving"] 20:52:54 rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 20:53:06 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@151.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 20:53:13 -!- rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Client Quit] 20:53:41 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@113.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 20:53:46 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:53:48 http://rafb.net/p/q6hjwb39.html 20:53:56 whats wrong with the syntax ? 20:54:40 kidd1 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:14 rotty [n=rotty@chello084114192192.1.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 20:57:32 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:58:24 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-24-16-45-235.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:00:58 nibbles: You'll probably get more help if you paste to lisppaste and use the accepted Lisp formatting style. 21:01:18 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:46 sorry, just a minute 21:02:27 nibbles: Don't you want to compare 'big' to something in that comparison expression? 21:02:47 nibbles pasted "bigger" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71134 21:02:55 phf [n=phf@c-69-140-35-170.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:03:24 ahaas: already did that.. look the new paste 21:03:39 nibbles: You should use 'let' instead of setf for that first setf. 21:04:07 that as my first try.. :/ 21:04:16 nibbles: And you need a 'do' before that 'if' 21:05:40 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:06:09 dakeyras_ [n=dakeyras@76-204-254-96.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:12 -!- dakeyras_ [n=dakeyras@76-204-254-96.lightspeed.cicril.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:07:09 nibbles annotated #71134 with "bigger" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71134#1 21:07:23 it compiles.. but is not working 21:07:38 i think im using LET the worng way 21:08:02 nibbles: yes. you might try a more lisp friendly editor that helps you get indenting right 21:08:11 nibbles: "let ((big 0))" 21:08:40 ths_ [n=ths@X4d53.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 21:08:42 nibbles: (let ((big 0)) use-big-here) 21:08:53 And the outer parens for the let should wrap all the other expressions where you want that binding to be visible. 21:09:07 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF509.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:09:52 ok wait.. 21:10:01 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 21:10:24 nibbles: Finally, you'll need to add "big" as the last expression if you want it to return that value. 21:10:37 And that "if" should be a "when". 21:11:39 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@151.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:12:06 i still need to return the 'big' value 21:12:12 isnt (return big) ? 21:12:22 see my 2nd to last comment 21:12:25 inside of the LET 21:12:32 oh sorry 21:13:10 -!- durka [n=durka@pool-68-163-213-183.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:14:05 durka [n=durka@pool-68-163-213-183.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:11 omg. it's aliiive ! ;o 21:14:13 hanks 21:14:17 thanks 21:16:00 -!- phao [n=phao@20158132063.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:16:55 -!- BrianRice-mb_ [n=briantri@c-67-161-89-244.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:17:05 nibbles annotated #71134 with "working" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71134#2 21:19:14 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:19:49 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:22:05 minion: tell nibbles about PCL 21:22:05 nibbles: have a look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 21:23:06 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 21:23:41 -!- durka [n=durka@pool-68-163-213-183.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 21:24:02 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 21:24:10 nice 21:29:38 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:35:11 jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:13 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit ["leaving"] 21:39:28 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 21:40:03 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:34 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@151.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:42:17 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 21:45:17 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@151.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:46:09 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-74-85-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:46:19 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:48 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-09bf74871e061003] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:01:16 -!- fluke777 [n=tomas@220.231.broadband.iol.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:01:26 fluke777 [n=tomas@220.231.broadband.iol.cz] has joined #lisp 22:02:51 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:03:45 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslaf232.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:03:53 hi 22:05:33 -!- diophantine [n=n-1@79.99.2.65] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:06:51 hi bakkdoor 22:07:43 i'm having a little trouble with sbcl 22:08:04 i used clisp before and it worked fine, but when i want to compile the code with sbcl i get an error 22:08:41 What is the error? If it's long paste it to lisppaste. 22:09:57 well it gives me several weird errors 22:10:07 let me see, maybe i can find out what exactly it is 22:10:45 btw, is there a way to have a multiline comment? 22:11:25 ok it works now...seems like the defpackage caused the problem 22:11:31 is it different to clisp? 22:12:25 only if they allow different deviations from the standard... 22:12:28 yes. 22:12:34 it is? 22:12:43 ehu`: he probably got bit by and empty :use list 22:12:47 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@151.pool85-49-167.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 22:12:51 an empty* 22:12:52 yeah something about :use 22:12:53 ah. hehe 22:13:03 bakkdoor: yes, clisp is not sbcl.. 22:13:08 "the function :use is undefined" 22:13:09 that's why they have different names 22:13:13 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 22:13:21 yeah but i thought that was part of the standard 22:13:32 bakkdoor: well you thought wrong. 22:13:34 :) 22:13:38 ok :) 22:13:42 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:44 clhs defpackage 22:13:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defpkg.htm 22:14:03 If :use is not supplied, it defaults to the same implementation-dependent value as the :use argument to make-package. 22:14:21 "implementation-dependent" being the operative words here. 22:14:28 bakkdoor pasted "defpackage in sbcl" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71137 22:14:35 how should i do it then? 22:15:01 bakkdoor: include the common-lisp package in your :use list if you'd like to use symbols from that package. 22:15:15 i have it in there 22:15:48 without looking, you have and in-package in the same file as your defpacakge? 22:15:54 yeah 22:16:00 wrong? 22:16:06 and you've tried to evaluate the defpackage form... 22:16:09 most of the time 22:16:13 with the empty use list 22:16:27 and created a package without :using common lisp 22:16:31 drewc: my use list isnt empty 22:16:37 it was 22:16:41 right? 22:16:44 no 22:16:53 its like how i pasted it 22:17:23 did it always look that way? 22:17:29 yes 22:17:41 but i have it in the same file as my in-package 22:17:41 and what is the issue? 22:17:57 it tells me "the function :use is undefined" 22:18:19 right .,. and what is *package* ? 22:18:39 cl-user 22:19:05 uyou are pasting this form at the repl? 22:19:12 no its in a file 22:19:21 but i have the in-package there as well, maybe thats why? 22:19:23 and you are trying to compile this file? 22:19:34 first i have the defpackage then the in-package then the code 22:19:37 yes 22:19:55 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 22:20:03 and what does (find-package :my-lists) return? 22:20:37 # 22:20:52 how is that possible if you are not able to evaluate your defpackage form. 22:21:01 no idea 22:21:02 lol 22:21:06 did you evaluate a diferent defpackage form at some point? 22:21:09 (yes, you did) 22:21:50 and you did not include common-lisp in that packages :use list 22:22:10 -!- fluke777 [n=tomas@220.231.broadband.iol.cz] has quit [] 22:22:23 and now you are attempting to evaluate cl:defpackage in that package via slime, 22:22:24 drewc: does sbcl ignore repeated defpackage? 22:22:40 ah 22:22:45 ehu`: no, but the new defpackage is not cl:defpackage :) 22:23:05 hm no i dont have an extra defpackage 22:23:08 yah, I started to understand 22:23:16 bakkdoor: you _did_ damnit 22:23:32 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178043115.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [No route to host] 22:23:32 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e178043115.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:23:37 somehow you have created a my-lists pacakge 22:23:58 'restart your lisp' is the easy answer, but that doesn't teach you anything 22:24:34 i use another package in there which also has a defpackage with a :use but that one also has :common-lisp in its use list 22:24:49 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 22:24:58 let me put it to you simply... cl does not create packages called :my-list by default .. so you have somehow created that package. if you don't want to listen, i'm not going to give you any further help! 22:25:45 drewc: i do want to listen, and i do believe that you're right with what you're saying but i dont know exactly what you mean 22:26:11 drewc: didnt want to upset you, sorry. 22:26:37 bakkdoor: i'm not upset, just frustrated. 22:26:53 alright, i'll try to figure it out on my own 22:27:18 you might start by scrolling back and trying to understand the very good directions i just gave you 22:29:14 anyone here had played with writing an IRC bot using cl-irc? 22:29:24 minion: are you a bot? 22:29:25 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 22:29:41 and lisppaste and specbot 22:29:45 seems like i never get the mail i send to armedbear-j-devel 22:29:51 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 22:30:14 dmiles_afk: are you subscribed? :) 22:30:34 drewc: I'm looking at minion's, lisppaste and specbot too, but I can't figure few things (aka cl-irc could use a better doc.) 22:30:50 well the annoying thing about using a sourceforge email as your return box.. you cant send from it 22:31:08 -!- nibbles [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/nibbless] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 22:31:29 dmiles_afk: you can subscribe from the web interface 22:31:35 nibbles [n=chatzill@189-95-170-194.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:31:55 drewc, i think i am going to resubscribed 22:31:59 p_l: i've used cl-irc with in the paste . .what exactly are you having troubles with? 22:32:03 -!- xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.11/0000000000]"] 22:32:06 in the past* 22:32:25 if i use another self-written package in my package how can i tell the compiler where to find it? 22:33:08 drewc: Upon connection to rizon, I get an exception about response code 439 22:33:24 bakkdoor: it doesn't really work that way. packages are stored in files, and you load the files./ 22:33:34 and as soon as welcome finishes, it gets killed 22:33:39 (i.e. banned) 22:33:48 minion: tell bakkdoor about asdf 22:33:48 bakkdoor: please see asdf: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/asdf 22:34:09 bakkdoor: you use asdf to organize and load your lisp files. 22:34:29 drewc: alright thanks i'll have a look 22:34:32 p_l: what is code 439? 22:34:39 is that an IRC error code? 22:34:47 drewc: IRC response code 22:35:03 the client part of IRC RFCs don't specify this one 22:35:17 bakkdoor: I typically put all my defpackage forms in a single file called packagee.lisp 22:35:27 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.235.245] has joined #lisp 22:35:29 rottcodd: ok thanks 22:35:43 drewc, i guess it dont send you a copy if you send it 22:35:58 dmiles_afk: gmail? 22:36:12 drewc, yes 22:36:24 dmiles_afk: i think that's a 'feature' of gmail. 22:36:30 but i access my gmail via outlok express .. you think a spam filter? 22:37:21 dmiles_afk: hrm .. i'm not sure. 22:38:12 anyway ehu` and V-ille the check is in the mail 22:38:25 p_l: 438 does not appear to be in the rfc 22:38:32 439 sorry 22:39:05 p_l: is there a message that comes along with it? 22:39:33 UNKNOWN-REPLY: irc.zipd.de * "Please wait while we process your connection." 22:40:01 "most clients ignore a 439 on connect()." 22:40:20 from: http://www.deaded.com/forum/viewtopic.php?forum=5&showtopic=16 22:40:31 Does cl-irc sends automatic replies to messages (as per RFC?) or do I have to register a handler? I haven't seen anything for that in specbot.lisp and others 22:40:58 i suspect you have to register a handler. 22:41:25 automatic anything does not sound like a feature of cl-irc IIRC. 22:41:26 you have to register a handler 22:41:36 it auto-pongs 22:41:39 the examples from cl-irc registered only a handler for privmsg 22:41:39 on pings 22:42:04 it auto-responds on CTCP VERSION requests 22:42:24 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 22:42:26 p_l: I have a bot (alexis) built on top of cl-irc 22:42:34 p_l: it defines more handlers 22:43:07 p_l: see http://hix.nu/svn-public/alexis/trunk/alexis/hooks.lisp 22:43:13 ehu`: thx 22:43:50 hmm. server looks down. hold on. 22:45:49 p_l: fixed. see the methods with the name "monitor-hook" 22:46:58 ehu`: thanks 22:50:51 sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has joined #lisp 22:51:34 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:53:00 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:53:33 -!- dkcl` [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:56:19 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:45 good evening 22:57:01 evening, fusss 22:57:48 hey, LW just sent me a full version of LW pro to try. i guess one has to just ask :-) 22:58:13 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.64.114] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:58:36 evening fusss 22:58:57 hey drew :-) 22:59:18 fusss: "to try" ... does that mean it's time-limited, or did you just get a free license? 22:59:26 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-32.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:59:45 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 23:00:31 sellout: the sales person decripled the personal edition so I can try win32 DDE functions; i wanna bind widgets to a data source and have the DB drive the application, updating the view as it goes. 23:01:30 i'm still on trial license that expires, but the gesture of good will is hard to ignore 23:03:35 cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:06:56 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 23:07:25 -!- phf [n=phf@c-69-140-35-170.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:09:01 mogunus annotated #71132 with "next revision, same problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/71132#1 23:09:13 Hi all. Still having trouble with language encoding. 23:09:26 -!- blitz__ [n=blitz@77.64.176.217] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:09:36 durka [n=durka@pool-68-163-213-183.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:41 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.235.245] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:10:19 I switched to cl-who 23:11:25 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:13:26 mogunus: do you think edi's cl-unicode would be of help? I know it's outdated, just something to look at 23:13:52 mogunus: Does it work if you evaluate the cl-who stuff w/o going through Hunchentoot? 23:14:15 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:14:32 ahaas: nope 23:14:37 I think I just figured it out though 23:14:45 cl-who has an escape-string function 23:15:01 Which I just found. Trying to figure out how to use it now. 23:15:40 -!- sellout [n=greg@96.227.247.162] has quit [] 23:16:00 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:16:13 mogunus: the hunchentoot example has various pages that show of unicode and even display Kuhn's test cases 23:16:59 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslaf232.osnanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:17:55 fusss: oh, okay. I'll check the docs for how to set up the example, then. thanks. 23:19:43 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 23:23:46 fusss: okay, the example works fine 23:26:58 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:27:56 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 23:28:14 benny [n=benny@i577A1E5B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:29:12 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-189-40.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:30:38 mbtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 23:30:40 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:31:15 -!- durka [n=durka@pool-68-163-213-183.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:33:13 kickaha [n=jadawin@1.99.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:34:33 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:34:41 -!- kickaha [n=jadawin@1.99.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 23:35:01 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483CD76.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:35:11 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslaf232.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:35:12 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:38:22 facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has joined #lisp 23:40:27 whats (lambda) for ? I'm not understanding it o_O 23:41:06 the compiler always complains about the lambda expression missing.. but I'm not understanding what for 23:41:41 -!- ehu` [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-194587f692bb8443] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 23:42:10 nibbles: How are you learning Lisp? 23:43:13 with a bunch of websites and some tutorials/books, why ? 23:43:40 Because you seemed to be doing it by trial and error. 23:45:09 -!- p_l [n=plasek@pp82.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:45:26 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 23:45:27 that too :) 23:45:45 -!- mbtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [] 23:46:01 That book I linked to before has a lot of info about lambda. 23:47:40 i'm reading it.. anonymous function.. 23:47:53 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:48:44 -!- netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has left #lisp 23:49:17 nibbles: this might be an easier intro http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/index.html 23:50:14 what other programming language do you know? 23:51:04 nibbles_ [n=chatzill@189-95-170-194.3g.claro.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:51:27 -!- nibbles [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/nibbless] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:52:02 -!- nibbles_ is now known as nibbles 23:52:55 http://paste.lisp.org/display/71139 23:53:14 look, i don't see the reason to use lambda 23:53:48 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:57:12 Are you saying that you don't understand why you are getting errors regarding lambda from the code you pasted? 23:58:34 yes. and WITH the lambda i can compile but the code dont work 23:58:45 The problem with your code is the "((" before (first. 23:59:01 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-189-40.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:59:32 And you don't need to use a let to create matriz, just so you can return it. 23:59:45 i want to return a exact list of 3 lists.. is it possible? or ill have to use cons ? 23:59:58 use list