00:00:26 stassats`: Well, to do that particular thing, it's, of course, more suitable. 00:01:03 But the meaning of the code above is more interesting to me than what it actually does. It reminds me of Haskell pattern-matching. :) 00:01:38 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:03:01 "So when I say that this book is about how to do things that are impossible in other languages, I don’t mean 'impossible' in the mathematical sense, but in the sense that matters for programming languages. That is, if you had to write some of the programs in this book in C, you might as well do it by writing a Lisp compiler in C first." 00:03:03 -!- Kickaha [n=user@117.62.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:03:10 I like that line. 00:03:41 Kickaha [n=jadawin@117.62.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:04:05 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:06:21 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.66.158] has joined #lisp 00:06:24 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:50 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:07:50 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:08:09 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:18 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:11:41 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 00:12:04 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 00:13:02 -!- rullie [n=rullie@129-97-68-142.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:14:51 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@131.31ec54.tvnetwork.hu] has quit ["..."] 00:15:29 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:18:02 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:18:32 msingh [n=user@203.171.123.8.dynamic.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 00:18:56 -!- wormilwork [n=Miranda@adsl-070-155-056-058.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:19:43 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:50 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:40 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-000-023.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:02 luis: I already can tell On Lisp is my new favorite book. 00:22:57 you said you wanted code that did real stuff though. 00:24:08 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@3E331EC4.dslaccess.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:25:21 Is there a way to search lisppaste for strings of text? 00:25:33 mogunus: google? 00:26:25 bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has joined #lisp 00:26:33 luis: how about the prolog he implements in the end of the book? 00:26:56 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47224.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:27:55 Quadrescence: if you want something to laugh at 00:27:56 http://paste.lisp.org/display/67650 00:28:59 mogunus: out of curiosity, what kind of speed-up did you get with that OPTIMIZE declaration? 00:29:22 luis: I honestly don't know what that's doing there. 00:29:33 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:30:03 (this is because I am a bad programmer) 00:30:07 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:30:37 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:49 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless57.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:34:30 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-026-117.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:06 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a61-110.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:12 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a18-048.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:35:12 mogunus: why the pessimism? 00:35:19 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:36:35 luis: because I've been working in lisp for a couple years now, and seem to have stopped improving. 00:37:08 luis: I think I'm going to have to do something drastic, like lock myself in a room with lisp in small pieces. 00:37:56 mogunus: probably not the best book for your goals. 00:38:48 luis: Can you recommend one that isn't On Lisp, PAIP, PCL, amop, successful lisp, or sicp? 00:39:13 mogunus: also, a daily routine might work better than trying to (or hoping to) improve your skills overnight. 00:39:33 mogunus: hmm, have you read all of those? 00:39:36 what are your goals? 00:39:43 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:39:45 luis: Yeah, once or twice each. 00:39:51 cltl2 is so far very nice, i think. 00:39:56 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@3E331EC4.dslaccess.aol.com] has left #lisp 00:40:33 mogunus: Maybe writing lisp isn't your "problem". 00:41:06 mogunus: did you try out the code in those books? 00:42:15 luis: yes 00:43:19 mogunus: Learn more about algorithms and data structures. :) 00:43:40 mogunus: ok, so, what do you think that sucks about that code you posted? 00:44:01 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp145.studby.uio.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:41 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:45:10 luis: I think it's a misguided way to parse files line-by-line. 00:45:34 mogunus: I guess you should write more code now. Solve problems. Read what you wrote some days later. Rewrite the parts you don't like. Read other people's code, etc. 00:45:57 -!- NNshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-154.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:46:26 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:46:31 rullie [n=rullie@129-97-68-142.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 00:46:41 luis: fair enough. I've been thinking of starting a "code blog." 00:46:55 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 00:47:45 mogunus: whatever motivates you, yeah. 00:50:12 what's a code blog? 00:50:41 A blog related only to programs that I produce? My personal life is horribly boring. 00:50:59 heh 00:51:08 hefner: take the blog concept and s/rant/code 00:51:20 I don't think I'd be very good at that. 00:51:45 -!- Mynch [i=Mynch@ns150a.studby.ntnu.no] has quit [] 00:51:57 hefner: how about code tweetering? 00:52:01 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 00:52:26 lucca: that's tricky. you can't fit much in a tweet/ 00:52:32 banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has joined #lisp 00:52:40 is it true the people on this channel are a bunch of meanies 00:52:55 Only to idiots. 00:52:58 hehehe 00:53:16 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 00:53:18 well i've cut my teeth in #c 00:53:25 and i doubt you can be as nasty as those guys 00:53:55 banisterfiend: are you trolling? 00:54:07 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:54:10 I bet zhivago can. 00:54:20 it's zhivago i was talking about 00:54:29 he's the guy from #c 00:54:34 is he in #lisp too? 00:55:01 banisterfiend: Do you have anything related to Lisp to discuss (other than the merits of #lisp)? 00:55:01 *kzar* makes use of /ignore 00:55:43 luis: no im not i just wanted to learn lisp but saw on reddit that the ppl in #lisp are hostile to new comers and it's part of the reason lisp is dying due to teh hostility to new comers, but you all seem cute so far 00:56:06 banisterfiend: we're dead sexy, actually. 00:56:08 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslco024.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:56:12 hehe 00:56:17 anyway i wont but you guys anymore 00:56:25 just wanted to see what's the dilly 00:56:29 minion: tell banisterfiend about PCL 00:56:29 banisterfiend: please look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 00:57:19 mbtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@3E331EC4.dslaccess.aol.com] has joined #lisp 00:57:29 thanks 00:58:02 duck[lappy] [n=nick@unaffiliated/rockermono] has joined #lisp 00:58:08 is there anything like a lisp equivalent of http://learnyouahaskell.com/ a tutorial of a similar tone ? 00:58:16 -!- Kickaha [n=jadawin@117.62.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has left #lisp 00:58:40 -!- duck[lappy] [n=nick@unaffiliated/rockermono] has left #lisp 00:58:45 http://www.lisperati.com/casting.html 00:59:23 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:34 awesome! 00:59:35 thanks 01:00:11 bjorkBSD [n=bjork@ip72-204-40-138.fv.ks.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:00:21 gah. 01:00:23 -!- bjorkBSD [n=bjork@ip72-204-40-138.fv.ks.cox.net] has left #lisp 01:00:52 banisterfiend: The people in this channel are unbelievably helpful to sincere newcomers who show effort and maturity. Everyone else, not so much. 01:01:17 http://learnyouahaskell.com/listmonster.png 01:02:53 heh, much of computer science could be better explained using a coloring book. 01:03:10 that is so insufferably Cute! 01:03:51 lucca: I've got this book, written like for 7 year olds, which teaches enough about computing to actually build a simple, transistor based computer. 01:03:52 does anyone know where i can find documentation for closer-mop? 01:04:12 lucca: Well, with the help of an electronics book :) 01:04:26 p_l: nice. Best digital-logic program I've seen for children was Rocky's Boots 01:04:30 circa... 82 or so? 01:04:53 Some context: banisterfiend is testing the hypothesis, which he relayed to #erlang from reddit, that `the #lisp crew a bunch of hostile and sanctimonious assholes'. Others from #erlang may be observing his experiment. 01:05:10 lucca: This one is from '80s germany, if not earlier - it uses punched tape (otoh, it's easier to implement) 01:05:20 -!- gloaming [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:05:31 turns out that hypothesis was wrong though 01:05:36 i got alot of help and alot of good links :) 01:05:38 gloaming [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:58 beach: the framebuffer stuff looks interesting. I'm not sold on the merits of only displaying when you cycle through the command loop, although it must happen sometime. medium-[force/finish]-output seems like a logical time too. 01:06:09 -!- mbtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@3E331EC4.dslaccess.aol.com] has quit [] 01:10:01 lucca: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Little_man_computer | http://phrogram.com/ | http://littlewizard.sourceforge.net/screenshots.html 01:11:33 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:12:04 -!- Axioplas1 is now known as Axioplase 01:12:19 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:12:56 hmmmm 01:14:16 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:14:17 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:14:38 Riastradh: Nice.. 01:14:49 it's a pity CS is not taught properly to children 01:15:32 p_l: I think it should be a part of a "core curriculum". Encourages logical thinking and problem solving and whatnot. 01:15:48 -!- durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has quit [] 01:15:57 a stronger math program for children would eliminate the need entirely. 01:16:13 lucca: meh, I disagree. 01:17:51 -!- ferada [n=ferada@f054012075.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["gn8"] 01:18:13 Quadrescence: well if they focussed on algorithms in mathematics that's pretty much utilizing the same mental faculties as programming 01:18:26 well... a Much stronger math program. 01:18:26 lucca: Not really - we need to differentiate of course between mathematical side and "utility" side 01:18:40 and of course we need a strong math program 01:19:00 that goes without even taking CS into account 01:19:23 Hmm I'm not sure how to improve it but I feel my education was fairly crap 01:19:26 thestarslookdown [n=thestars@208.65.190.99] has joined #lisp 01:20:02 heh, the best part of my CS education happened in elementary school with unsupervised access to LOGO 01:20:24 it's a pity CS is not taught properly to adults.. 01:20:42 well, is anything? 01:20:43 well, mine wasn't as bad. Though I'd certainly reverse the current trend of dumbing down maths (thanks to it I didn't learn calculus fully) 01:20:49 Most of the skills that earn me money now are things that interest me that I learnt in my own time, Computing lessons where pretty shit for me. I mean I had some fun messing around on the systems and making silly programs but the classes where taught by Geography teachers after one IT course. 01:20:59 -!- tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@190.191.162.100] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 01:21:16 and Logo is actually quite good for teaching - if only we stop teaching children only about simple movements of the turtle 01:21:46 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a18-048.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:22:27 in my last HS year we were supposed to do Linux stuff - I asked my teacher (who was pretty well versed, his second job being his own IT company) if I should write him a book about the subject. This way, the whole year was free :D 01:22:32 (for me) 01:22:48 p_l: turtle motion is fine, but the imperative model is the bottleneck there 01:23:53 -!- gloaming [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:09 lucca: true - but we have to show them that they can do more than turtle motion - I had a lot of fun making the buzzer play notes, for example 01:24:16 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:24:30 gloaming [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:24:50 in fact we started working on a simple music player that would read in notes from a string 01:25:02 Any of you guys ever play ZZT? that kind of thing is good for teaching programming IMO 01:25:45 ZZT? haven't heard about it 01:25:53 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:26:30 p_l: It's a great game that lets you make your own games. It's pretty old but it was a pretty fun way to learn about programing. 01:26:51 kzar: secondlife is pretty good for learning about programming too 01:27:56 another interesting example was Colobot - not the best, but interesting. It didn't force you to write programs, but writing them certainly helped 01:28:27 p_l: Hmm looks pretty cool 01:29:20 p_l: I think the interesting thing is, when people where playing ZZT that most people really weren't interested in coding even though it was accessible. I think games like that are a good way to learn but I think you have to want to learn. I guess programming basically bores most people 01:29:47 p_l: Duno why but it always fascinated me 01:30:07 kzar: A lot of what bores people is the repetitivity of many tasks and lack of response - imagine how many people would go for programming through scripting? 01:30:17 There is big business in using games for training. 01:30:47 It's usually called 'Serious Games.' The military is really into it. 01:31:28 erm, but I guess that's not the same as training people for programming. 01:31:30 military simulations sometimes require quite a bit different stuff in some places 01:31:45 basically the biggest difference is in AI 01:32:26 I think a lot of the current work in the military games is working as a unit and following protocol. 01:32:53 Hmm I better go to bed, was an interesting conversation though. Cya later 01:33:08 ahaas: That could be done without that. But there's a lot of AI stuff, especially since newer hardware introduces it's own AI engines 01:33:23 Also physics for simulation of close combat 01:33:33 basically, maximum realism 01:33:49 the fact that it requires protocol and teamwork stems from that, too :) 01:33:56 p_l: Do you know of any examples? 01:34:02 i feel like i should read pcl again 01:34:30 or at least a few chapters 01:34:33 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a18-210.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:34:41 like all the stuff about cons cells 01:34:57 ahaas: Well, Harpoon was designed as a board game to be played by live opponents, but starting from that model, advanced AI engines are used to simulate various actions 01:35:01 and destructive functions 01:36:03 ahaas: Also, America's Army is kind of "mind training" for new recruits - it tries to show you how hard war is, and because of that you have to play as a team 01:36:51 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:37:08 also I heard that if you are an US citizen and got high enough, they sometimes offer positions in military :) 01:37:37 plus there's a lot of stuff that is relatively hidden, simply because not many people ask about it 01:38:01 Just to bring it back on-topic, I think that passive learning through games is very powerful, and I'd love to hear more about using that to teach programming. 01:38:31 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has quit [] 01:38:32 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:33 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:49 -!- bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:39:03 bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:40:06 hmmm.... Anyone played with Kanamit? (a web framework) 01:40:27 quoting their website: "We got it running on several flavors of Lisp on Linux, FreeBSD, Solaris, Mac OS X and we are currently porting it to our faithful Symbolics 3600. We even got it running inside Emacs 22." 01:40:49 p_l: I didn't mean to cut you off. That was interesting. I just hadn't heard of the military using games to simulate close combat w/ physics, etc. 01:41:07 ahaas: Basically they don't call them games, but military simulators 01:41:40 so you get different priorities, for example in cpu budget (less graphics, more for AI and realism) 01:42:39 also, quite often the interface is completely different (take combat flight simulators, which can also be used to train various support people, without launching a plane) 01:43:12 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:44:29 anyway, anyone heard or maybe used this? http://www.upabrasil.com.br/ 01:46:24 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 01:47:10 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:53:49 hmm.. their website is not really working, unfortunately 01:56:26 Hopefully it wasn't built with kanamit. lol 02:01:54 It's a cookbook! 02:02:34 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:04:05 -!- thestarslookdown [n=thestars@208.65.190.99] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:04:14 -!- ilSignorCarlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 02:06:30 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:06:42 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:07:28 -!- gloaming [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:08:01 crod [n=cmell@cb8a69-183.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:09:00 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:10:12 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a18-210.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:13:49 i don't understand whats wrong with this 02:14:02 (ldiff '(a b c) '(b)) 02:14:10 shouldn't that only return (a b)? 02:14:38 syamajala: what's LDIFF? 02:15:34 pcl says Returns a copy of a list up to a given cons cell. 02:15:44 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslco024.osnanet.de] has quit [] 02:15:46 let me check the hyperspec 02:16:34 syamajala: but not including 02:16:49 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 02:16:53 also ... 02:17:27 but it doesn't seem to work at all, because it just returns '(a b c) when i do (ldiff '(a b c) '(b)) 02:17:47 it has to match the tail, so you need to use '(c) or '(b c) 02:21:19 tailp needs to return t in order for it to match right? 02:21:34 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:21:36 because (tailp '(c) '(a b c)) returns nil 02:22:16 it looks like it should return t according to that table in the hyperspec 02:23:27 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:23:42 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:01 i don't understand why it doesn't return t for the line above 02:24:36 ohhh 02:25:18 i understand whats going on now 02:25:31 durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has joined #lisp 02:25:52 eql on lists? 02:26:41 actually i'm confused now 02:27:15 -!- durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has quit [Client Quit] 02:27:21 it says (tailp '(c) '(a b c)) can return t or nil i guess 02:27:42 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:28:27 and (ldiff '(a b c) '(c)) can return (a b c) or (a b) 02:29:12 if i am reading it correctly 02:30:30 durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has joined #lisp 02:32:35 elurin [n=user@85.99.168.94] has joined #lisp 02:32:42 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:34:51 never mind 02:34:56 i wasn't reading it correctly 02:35:05 and i get how it works 02:37:29 sellout: it was eql on lists ;-) 02:41:33 good mornin'! And what a wonderful day to do some lisp! 02:42:57 schme_: what's the diff b/w lisp and scheme 02:43:24 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:08 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:44:58 banisterfiend: lisp is a family of languages, scheme is a part of the family :) 02:45:17 ah thanks :) 02:45:29 so when you say 'a wonderful day to do some lisp!' you could very well be programming in scheme? 02:46:05 banisterfiend: But seeing how there's tons of schemes, one could may say.. hmm... lisp is a family, scheme is a "sub-family". 02:46:08 except that he said it in a channel devoted to Common Lisp 02:46:36 banisterfiend: when people say "lisp" here, they'll mean CL. 02:46:41 banisterfiend: Yes, yes. You are quite correct. But ahaas is also correct and I was referring to Common Lisp. It's the whole context thing :) 02:47:05 ok thanks 02:47:21 banisterfiend is test-driving the specificity thing we prize here so much 02:48:37 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 02:48:59 :) 02:49:20 banisterfiend: Also if I had said "It's a wonderful day to write some code", I'd most likely also be talking about CL :) 02:49:47 but with a nickname like schme_ i would have thought if you had just said "some code" you'd probably be talking about scheme 02:50:07 since you obstensibly like scheme so much you named yourself after it! 02:50:30 ah. 02:50:38 That's an accident. 02:51:05 I was stabbing random keys on the keyboard and it ended up like this, also I am too lazy to register a new nick. 02:51:09 -!- schme_ is now known as schme 02:51:16 ah ok 02:51:43 Not that I hate the lil' lisp, but I tend to not use it :) 02:54:48 Buganini_ [n=buganini@59-125-180-141.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:55 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@cnmc12.hs.ntnu.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:57:39 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:06 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:00:50 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:01:27 ...instanciating a struct manually to be able to close a loop without the type checks getting in the way (so as to have typed circular references). Probably the ugliest hack so far :| 03:02:12 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-46b13fff2b6bcee7] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:02:16 I don't know what that means, but it sounds impressive. 03:02:23 fsk141 [i=89a44f0b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-de0ca406a651c95d] has joined #lisp 03:02:33 hey, what's the best environment for scheme 03:02:35 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-e461618e7f1c8a9c] has joined #lisp 03:02:50 I've tried a bunch and they dont allow me to hit up to view my previous commands 03:03:02 hefner: i have something like (defstruct foo (bar (error) :type foo). Sort of hard to make the first instance of that struct :| 03:03:06 fsk141: ask #scheme 03:03:12 -!- fsk141 [i=89a44f0b@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-de0ca406a651c95d] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 03:03:44 hmm, yes. 03:03:48 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:03:51 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:09 what's the typical lispers opinion of haskell? 03:04:13 or erlang? 03:04:24 I wanna learn 'em 03:04:49 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:04:53 *p_l* wants to master all three: Lisp, Haskell and Erlang 03:05:16 just those three p_1 ? 03:05:17 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:05:23 what about Ocaml etc 03:05:46 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:05:51 banisterfiend: You asked about haskell and erlang :> 03:06:01 gp :) 03:06:05 and we are in #lisp :) 03:06:49 yeah im just trying to figure out about the lisper zeitgeist :) 03:07:00 Ocaml doesn't differ that much from Haskell, at least from the ideological pov. At least this is what I can see from my very brief encounter with it 03:07:31 p_1: what about the scripting languages ruby/python/perl which one do lispers typically gravitate to out of those 3? 03:07:34 However, Ocaml got a very good implementation, and now there's a F# 03:07:49 Being purely functional seems like a pretty big ideological difference to me... 03:08:09 banisterfiend: I do not consider myself enough of a lisper to judge - I do however know and use Ruby and Python 03:09:04 sctb: Well, most opinions I got from people working in Ocaml were about keeping to pure functional style, using mutation mostly for IO or when it's *really* useful 03:09:36 Also, I don't really want to learn Ocaml to write non-FP code. 03:09:54 There's also type classes vs. modules 03:10:06 verdammelt [n=user@c-71-232-14-151.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:10:22 sctb: I stand corrected - haven't delved too much into Ocaml (yet) 03:11:05 banisterfiend: My opinion of haskell and erlang is that I like them both very much. Especially the erlang. Nice syntax, and many good ideas in the language in general. 03:11:30 Erlang has nice syntax? 03:11:33 Yes. 03:11:58 sctb: Quite nice one. Certainly better than some "enterprise" stuff I had seen 03:12:18 (like VB... brrrr) 03:12:37 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 03:12:44 and it is very nice to work with in general. And hot code loading is always a plus. Nothing new for lispers, of course, but it is a nice thing none the less. :) 03:12:56 I haven't heard Erlang (or Prolog for that matter) being praised for syntax before 03:12:58 hot swapping they call it even. 03:13:07 sctb: Well.. I like prolog ;) 03:13:15 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 03:13:17 I guessed as much :) 03:13:22 sctb: One of these days you'll even hear lisp being praised for its syntax. 03:13:25 sctb: Well, Erlang has come long way from it's prolog-like syntax 03:13:38 and prolog *is* an interesting language 03:14:36 though interesting also in the "may you live in interesting times" way 03:15:06 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:15:38 Also I hear that erlang has some niceties for rewriting parse trees of files, and other odd metaprogramming ideas. 03:15:45 All in all I enjoy it. 03:15:51 :) 03:16:08 Now I'll end my OT rant for this time. 03:16:16 I know I had some McCLIM question. 03:16:50 oh ya. Where would I look at to add a new input device to it? 03:17:01 (3d mouse) 03:17:08 (but really magellan events) 03:17:47 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has quit ["Leaving..."] 03:18:18 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 03:21:11 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:21:37 how do you receive events from it? if as some kind of x11 event, look at the code in Backends/CLX/port.lisp to hack in a new event translation. 03:22:05 otherwise, synthesize the events yourself whenever and insert them into the frame event queue. 03:23:00 hefner: What one does is the X app needs to register some X atoms, to recieve 4 different events from the magellan software. 03:23:27 Which reminds me that I couldn't seem to figure out how to do that with CLX anyway. 03:23:30 hmm 03:23:53 hefner: I'll browser around there. Thanks :) 03:24:11 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:24:44 ok 03:24:52 intern atoms is the terminology, not register. 03:24:55 same thing :) 03:26:09 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 03:27:32 does lisp allow operator overloading? 03:28:04 banisterfiend: Lisp doesn't have operators, if you mean infix operators 03:28:32 Right. I remember looking for this in CLX. I need to do the CLX equivalent of foo = XInternAtom(display,"MotionEvent",TRUE); but I can't seem to find any x-intern-atom or some such in CLX. Any has done this? 03:28:43 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:28:47 banisterfiend: You can make generic functions dispatch on class. 03:28:58 banisterfiend: But you can certainly `overload' (and more) generic functions 03:29:17 banisterfiend: (foo (make-instance 'banana)) (foo (make-instance 'cat)) could be it. 03:29:32 nice 03:29:45 clx 11.1 03:29:45 i think if i learn lisp ill never look at () the same way again 03:29:53 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 03:30:00 *hefner* kicks specbot 03:30:02 tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has joined #lisp 03:30:09 *schme* looks at the 11.1 03:30:21 my god. 03:30:41 I have no idea why the auto-completion and grepping did not find that intern. 03:30:48 banisterfiend: If you learn Lisp you should also learn to use Emacs and Paredit for editing 03:31:02 banisterfiend: Or use some lisp without using emacs. 03:31:29 Do we advise our friends to stop calling and use smoke signals? 03:31:51 Well there are lisps with nice IDEs without emacs. 03:32:05 Such as? 03:32:12 lispworks. 03:32:21 Emacs (Hemlock). 03:32:44 I sure didn't see any emacs in my lispworks. 03:33:06 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 03:33:12 Lispworks uses Hemlock, which (I believe) is based on ZWEI (Zwei Was Emacs Initially) 03:33:59 I'm pretty sure Hemlock was written from scratch 03:34:04 Right. But you don't quite have to learn more emacs than how to type text. ;) 03:34:53 I do mean based on in a conceptual way, rather than derived from 03:34:59 Hmm.. I remember there was some other issue here. 03:35:20 *schme* looks for the magellan code. 03:36:30 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 03:37:55 How safe is it to use unexported symbols in the CLX anyway? 03:38:17 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 03:39:22 Is there any plan for them to change? 03:42:45 specifically xlib::lookup-window 03:45:12 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:45:24 stassats [n=stassats@ppp91-122-60-232.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 03:47:47 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.142.209] has joined #lisp 03:48:36 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 03:50:03 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 03:52:47 pretty safe, but do you really need them? 03:54:30 It seems so, yes. 03:54:53 I'd paste a snippet for some feedback on how to avoid it, but I just did "rm * ~" 03:54:59 -!- durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has quit [] 03:55:03 which was not so bright, it turns out. 03:55:15 hah. happy unix! 03:55:28 :) 03:56:10 Not a big loss, still enough to make me postpone it all 'til later on today. 03:56:17 My condolences, schme! 03:57:05 ech.. *atleast* 20 LOC ;) 03:59:01 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 03:59:25 *(Window *)pr; And C people say lisp code is ugly to look at? 03:59:43 *schme* pops out to drown his sorrows in nicotine. 04:01:43 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:02:33 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:39 _3b: i think generating code at this stage was a premature optimization. i still think it's better to have a very transparent avm2 VM with tons of inspection, tracing and logging facility 04:03:49 -!- verdammelt [n=user@c-71-232-14-151.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:04:52 adding language features one by one is a bit of adhoc, imo, better to have something that's proven correct but slow. it's always possible to roll out bytecode generation, optimization and other processing phases later. 04:06:50 from what i read, the VM is unusual in that it never operates on a byte code stream. instead, it processes methods successively, each calling the other, and each method context has its *own* traditional VM with registers, stack, two kinds of scope and other familiar stuff. 04:07:39 i.e. you can't just type opcodes into an assembler and expect it to work :-) the entry point has to be a method call, and that only returns to another method call. VERY continuationy. 04:08:54 being a semantics weenie, i would probably start with the operation semantics of some tractable Lisp dialect and see how i would extend that to a full CL, or a major subset (say, something like T but with N>1 namespaces) 04:10:15 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:11:55 durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has joined #lisp 04:13:28 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 04:15:21 mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:16:03 banisterfiend: haskell in lisp syntax, never tried it myself http://liskell.org/ 04:23:07 thanks 04:23:08 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:25:00 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:13 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:30:48 guys .. if you're doing web-apps .. _do_ remember to seed *random-state* with something .... :/ 04:31:09 *lnostdal* heads for a beer 04:32:40 lnostdal: found that out the hard way, yup 04:33:05 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 04:33:09 maybe even that isn't enough .. maybe i should use /dev/urandom for something here 04:35:23 just shipped one, not too proud of it 04:35:30 and not CL :-| 04:38:20 lnostdal: I hope that's not for something that should be hard to break. 04:43:28 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 04:43:30 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.142.209] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:43:54 lnostdal: what kind of beer you drinking 04:44:33 nothing fancy; "Tuborg" it says here, banisterfiend 04:44:41 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:44:49 that's pretty fancy where im from 04:44:56 well, it's a good beer anyway 04:46:07 pkhuong, it should be reasonable hard to break .. i'm generating random strings from it .. maybe it would be a better idea to get random numbers from the os instead? .. (not pseudo, i think) 04:47:50 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 04:48:26 lnostdal: some sort of crypto thingy would probably be better. I don't think MT19337 is particularly solid in that regard. 04:48:41 kreuter: ping 04:48:48 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:49:30 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 04:50:36 Mannerisky [n=manneris@24-117-137-23.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:31 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:53:47 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A15BE.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:53:47 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:54:25 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:54:47 benny [n=benny@i577A064B.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:56:09 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:01:03 pkhuong, maybe http://burtleburtle.net/bob/rand/isaac.lisp is a good idea 05:05:52 The document suggests using MT + a crypto hash as an alternative. You could go with froydnj's ironclad for the latter half. 05:07:23 also, that code lies to the compiler, for no good reason that I can see. 05:12:18 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:16:11 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:16:25 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:19:24 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1F175.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:22:00 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D682.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:04 kidd2 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:25 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:26:44 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:10 I have a question that I will ask with some scheme code, as it really relates to the core theory and terminology that some here may know: (let ((x 5)) (call-with-current-continuation (lambda (k) (set! a k))) (set! x (+ x 1)) x) - successive (a) calls, in scheme, will return 6, 7, 8, . . .. let's call this type X. Imagine if successive calls to (a) would run with the original value of x - let's call this type Y. Is there strict terminology for one typ 05:30:10 e of stack save/continuation vs the other? A continuation that represents a precise state save vs merely a capture of an existing mutable variable? 05:31:11 this channel is for common lisp, try #scheme for scheme 05:32:03 Nobody on there - but the example would be legible to people an this channel, and the terminology, if it exists, would be universal. 05:32:14 And it's so I can research the topic for my CL codewalker play. 05:33:23 common lisp has no continuations 05:34:18 No, it has no call/cc - a continuation is something else. 05:35:05 So, (let ((x 5)) (defun a () (incf x))) vs. (defun a() (let ((x 5)) x)? That's probably too simple-minded; I don't really understand what you're asking. 05:35:38 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:50 Modius: call/cc is related to continuations 05:36:21 My codewalker provides call/cc across compliant functions. Call/cc is but one way to generate one 05:37:13 Of interest is (loop for i from 1 to 10 do (call/cc something) (print i)) <-- Upon reentry i increments in the standard case. 05:37:52 Hmm - bad example - going off the track 05:42:08 me-so-stupid [i=proxy@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 05:46:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:47:51 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host65.190-137-178.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 05:48:55 -!- HelicopterBen [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:49:53 phao [n=phao@20158133097.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 05:50:20 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:52:03 -!- epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 05:55:18 Good morning. 05:55:19 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:56:22 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 05:56:27 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:58:37 Morning beach. 05:59:26 beach: Are you the main Climacs developer? Or am I confused? 05:59:45 gigamonkey: I was, initially. 05:59:56 -!- Mannerisky [n=manneris@24-117-137-23.cpe.cableone.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:00:15 Mannerisky [n=manneris@24-117-137-23.cpe.cableone.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:29 why do you ask? 06:00:33 Did you start the project? 06:00:40 Yes, I did. 06:01:19 So the web site says its pretty fair from being ready to replace Emacs but is it a reasonable platform on which to develop an Emacs like app? 06:01:37 I.e. if I don't care about compatibility with the reams of Elisp that exist in the world. 06:01:47 s/pretty fair/pretty far/ 06:02:06 gigamonkey: It is much closer these days, and we yanked out a library called ESA that can be used to develop Emacs-Style Applications. 06:02:47 How about as a base for my WYSIWYWLA text editor? 06:02:50 good morning 06:02:56 gigamonkey: If you don't care about major subsystems such as Gnus or VM, then Climacs is a viable alternative to Emacs these days. 06:03:12 Hmmm. I'll have to take a look post-book. 06:03:55 gigamonkey: It is not only a base for one, it is one. 06:04:30 I just wrote a somewhat involved bit of elisp to help me edit transcripts for my book. It was great that it was possible but if I could have done it in CL rather than elisp, life would have been nicer. 06:04:48 beach: It can't totally be one yet or that project you were proposing would already be done. 06:05:38 gigamonkey: The word processor. I consider that different from a text editor. 06:05:52 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:06:21 Sorry, I meant "text" broadly speaking. The main difference between elisp and my WYSIWYWLA dream is that the latter supports nice typography. 06:06:43 gigamonkey: Ah, OK, Climacs doesn't do that yet. 06:07:05 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 06:07:06 -!- chillywilly [n=danielb@rrcs-98-100-186-38.central.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:07:08 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Client Quit] 06:07:10 For one thing, A word processor doesn't have lines of text that are created by the user, but by a layout engine. 06:07:11 chillywilly [n=danielb@rrcs-98-100-186-38.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:07:33 Basically I want something like an Emacs buffer that has primitives for displaying styled text in nice fonts (ideally with ligatures and a good linebreaking algorithm) and the ability to bind Lisp code to key chords. 06:07:59 gigamonkey: You would have to wait a few months for that. 06:08:04 Yes. Well, I use emacs with longlines-mode which is a very dumb layout engine. So arguably it's a word processor. 06:08:10 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:16 evening 06:08:36 gigamonkey: But I am making progress: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/stuff.png 06:08:44 hello slyrus_ 06:09:00 howdy beach. looks good! 06:09:23 Thanks. Independently of how it looks, it is now a McCLIM application. 06:09:59 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 06:10:50 Okay. Perhaps my third book will be written in Climacs. 06:10:58 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:11:24 CLIM is just fantastic! The specification allows you to add stuff like this and you don't have to touch much of the implementation at all. 06:13:37 mvillene1ve [n=mvillene@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 06:13:53 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 06:14:31 -!- Buganini_ is now known as Buganini 06:16:47 -!- Axioplase [n=pierard@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:16:49 gigamonkey: I'll call the word processor something other than Climacs, but I don't know what yet. 06:16:51 Axioplase [n=pierard@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 06:18:00 On the new version of the screenshot at http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/stuff.png you can see that it is doing pixel compositing. 06:18:24 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 06:18:38 -!- bartiosze [n=user@ejf118.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:19:17 -!- Axioplase [n=pierard@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 06:21:12 gigamonkey: I am hoping that the word processor will be good enough pretty soon (as in the end of the academic year if a group of students takes the project) to be used as a documentation browser in (say) the CLIM desktop. 06:24:17 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-167-55.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:25:13 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:36:31 beach: Well, I'm in no big rush. I've got to finish this book before I have time to do any major explorations. 06:38:17 _Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 06:41:13 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 06:42:43 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:45:28 re 06:45:30 nimo [n=user@116.224.219.168] has joined #lisp 06:47:44 beach: Oh, the other thing I want (besides a pony) is good primitives for attaching properties to spans of text with control over how those properties adhere to new text added nearby. I'd assume that'd be built into any word processor with reasonable support for style sheets but there should be a good general API for it and efficient data structures under the covers. 06:57:06 gigamonkey: Sounds very reasonable tome. 06:57:11 *to me 06:58:30 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:59:18 gigamonkey: would it be OK if such spans were required to be properly nested? 06:59:47 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:00:02 Well, it'd be cooler if not. Though I, of course, see the appeal of that limitation. 07:00:25 The trick is you might use different properties for different reasons which may or may not nest. 07:00:40 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:00:42 Sure. 07:00:52 I sort of like the Emacs solution of at least maintaining the illusion that every character has its own set of properties. 07:01:00 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:01:14 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:01:14 Then there's no issue of nesting. Instead they provide a way to search for the next place a given property changes value. 07:01:33 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:02:04 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 07:02:07 good morning 07:02:42 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:02:42 I forget how the OS X text stuff worked but it was okay--I at least got it to do more or less what I wanted, on that front, before being stymied in other areas. 07:02:51 morning kami- 07:03:00 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:03:31 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:04:50 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 07:06:19 Q: How many prolog programmers does it take to change a lightbulb? 07:06:19 A: Yes. 07:06:30 we're going back to the regularly scheduled programme now 07:08:18 ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:13:23 hahahah 07:13:27 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:13:41 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:14:12 _Jordan__ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 07:14:36 -!- _Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:14:41 -!- _Jordan__ is now known as _Jordan_ 07:18:38 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 07:20:36 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 07:22:40 good morning 07:22:47 -!- mvillene1ve is now known as mvilleneuve 07:24:33 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:24:48 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:27:38 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-17-133.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:32:23 beach: oh, ultimately I would also like to be able to easily use fonts not developed with your new Metafont-alike thingy. 07:35:26 idurand [n=idurand@chataigne.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 07:35:56 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:35:57 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.168.94] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:37:17 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-167-55.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [] 07:37:25 gigamonkey, emacs only has the illusion of character properties? 07:38:27 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.66.158] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:38:48 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.66.158] has joined #lisp 07:39:31 tic: No, they're real enough. The illusion is that there's actually some data attached to every character. 07:39:51 Maybe that's how it's actually done or maybe they keep track of spans. 07:40:06 But the API is in terms of what properties are attached to a character at a given position. 07:40:55 Ah, I see. Given position sounds interetsing. From my BeOS days, IIRC, there were text runs that was a string + props, that you'd insert to your view. 07:41:14 when I load my asdf package, I'm being warned for redefinition of all constants. do I need (eval-when ...) around defconstant? 07:41:54 no, your constants must be eql 07:42:08 and strings are not 07:42:24 thanks 07:42:44 if it isn't the same string, of course 07:44:44 but I have only one (defconstant +a+ "test") in all the files of the asdf package. 07:44:58 why is it evaluated twice? 07:45:21 at the compile time, and at the execute time? 07:45:36 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:45:43 so, eval-when is the solution? 07:45:46 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:35 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-168-33.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 07:46:46 no, it isn't 07:46:53 look at http://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/darcs/alexandria/definitions.lisp 07:47:22 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:47:29 thank you 07:48:50 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-167-55.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:54:40 -!- banisterfiend [n=john@203-97-217-154.cable.telstraclear.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:56:25 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@bb116-15-164-210.singnet.com.sg] has joined #lisp 07:56:37 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:57:44 gigamonkey: so you *want* fuzzy fonts? 07:58:58 *beach* leaves for work 07:59:03 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-59.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 08:01:49 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:08:42 rudi [n=rudi@z118l194.static.ctm.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:00 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:09:05 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 08:10:37 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:15:34 wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has joined #lisp 08:17:19 jgracin [n=jgracin@78-1-191-177.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 08:20:24 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 08:20:56 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 08:21:34 hello 08:21:38 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 08:21:57 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-168-33.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:23:20 schasi [n=schasi@p54A26E0B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:33 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A26E0B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:25:13 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:25:58 hello fe[nl]ix 08:26:06 hi kami- 08:30:08 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has joined #lisp 08:31:01 How come my slime conveniently ignores (require 'onlisp) when I type Ctrl-C Ctrl-K to compile and load the current buffer? 08:31:32 and outputs a list of related errors.. 08:32:02 If I first execute (require 'onlisp) with Ctrl-X e .. it works fine 08:32:27 that's because require is evaluated at load time, not at compile time 08:33:39 when you're compiling your file, code is generated to execute (require 'onlisp) once you load the fasl file 08:33:40 hmm... 08:34:38 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["CANada > AmeriCANTs"] 08:34:40 thanks rudi 08:34:43 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:34:55 (i.e. when you start your lisp outside of slime and evaluate (compile-file "myfile") you'll get the same error) 08:35:12 Oh, this reminds me a problem I have whenever I run a new slime session: I have to go through all the files I need, in the correct order, and load them. But my main file already has the correct load statements, and dependancies are ok. How can I rely on them instead of doing everything manually each time ? 08:35:27 you want to use asdf 08:36:09 more specifically, you want to read http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 08:36:25 rudi: do I ? I feel it's quite a big thing to learn compared to the (load) simplicity. 08:36:55 rudi: ok. reading. 08:37:04 kuwabara: well, what you're doing doesn't seem to work, so the simplicity is misleading ;) 08:37:36 kuwabara: redshank can generate a basic asdf:defsystem template from your source tree 08:38:16 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@bb116-15-164-210.singnet.com.sg] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:38:18 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-42-2.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:38:43 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-42-2.dip.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 08:38:47 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 08:40:29 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:26 manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 08:42:39 bin giorno 08:42:43 bon even 08:42:56 buon even 08:43:01 uh 08:43:12 "guten morgen" stick to what you know a little. 08:43:51 buon giorno H4ns :) 08:47:04 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 08:49:43 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-13.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 08:53:06 nostoi [n=nostoi@133.Red-83-34-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:11 Good morning. 08:54:23 scrote [n=russel@24.115.3.218.res-cmts.flt.ptd.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:24 hi 08:54:52 hi spiaggia 08:55:09 you guys down with poetry? http://rafb.net/p/CPG8HI17.html 08:55:31 scrote: this channel is about Lisp. 08:55:35 lol 08:55:47 nigga speak witha lisp 08:55:48 -!- scrote [n=russel@24.115.3.218.res-cmts.flt.ptd.net] has left #lisp 08:55:58 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 08:58:42 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:17 splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has joined #lisp 09:00:18 morning 09:02:34 hello splittist 09:02:55 hello spiaggia 09:03:11 hey mvilleneuve 09:03:32 splittist: did you see http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/stuff.png ? 09:04:11 spiaggia: oooh! Nice! 09:04:27 -!- rullie [n=rullie@129-97-68-142.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:05:28 spiaggia: I wonder if there is a graphic design course at labri that would like to set their students a typography project? 09:05:45 (I hasten to say that I mean no criticism of your typography!) 09:05:59 splittist: I'm afraid there is no such thing. 09:06:35 splittist: but the main point of the screenshot is not the quality of the font, but the fact that I now have an embryonic per-sheet framebuffer backend for McCLIM. 09:06:38 You'd have to find a graphics school. 09:07:28 Yeah, that would be nice. 09:07:44 For example http://www.infographie.org/ 09:08:36 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:08:46 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [] 09:08:53 (click on the 3d models on the bottom for more information) 09:08:57 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:09:28 matimago: yeah, that's very close to hear as well. 09:10:09 *here 09:10:54 graphic design is my big knowledge gap - I would have found it very useful in industry, even working as "just" a programmer 09:11:18 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 09:14:48 I wonder what the copyright laws say about fonts. 09:15:00 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:15:20 Actually, it doesn't matter since many TrueType fonts are in the public domain. 09:16:19 spiaggia: i once got an email from linotype because i accidentially checked in one of their fonts to my public svn repository. i can't tell about the law, but the companies certainly are after unauthorized redistribution. 09:16:19 jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.187.231] has joined #lisp 09:16:44 spiaggia: i removed the font from svn and linotype was happy with that, no money involved. 09:17:14 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@133.Red-83-34-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:17:59 H4ns: But this was some computer-representation of it right? I know that would be protected. I am wondering about the design itself, as in if you would look at a letter, and create a Metafont-like program for it. 09:19:31 ths [n=ths@X4f82.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 09:19:56 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a69-183.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:21:53 -!- _Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 09:22:23 spiaggia: yes, it was the actual ttf file that they complained about. 09:22:24 manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 09:22:29 BabyBee [n=huanglia@61.181.247.146] has joined #lisp 09:23:07 tiesje`` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 09:23:33 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:24:52 spiaggia: http://www.ms-studio.com/articles.html has some clues on the topic. 09:26:11 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.187.231] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:26:20 I think it depends on the country, but the safe* course would be to treat font designs as subject to copyright. Which means sufficiently old stuff would have no protection. 09:26:34 (* safe, not accurate) 09:27:13 you could always just settle for bistream or another 'open' font 09:28:54 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 09:32:00 mega1` [n=mega@3e70ca0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 09:32:28 H4ns: great article! 09:32:54 spiaggia: not exactly legalese :) 09:33:05 sure, but nice anyway. 09:33:08 -!- rudi [n=rudi@z118l194.static.ctm.net] has quit ["Client exciting"] 09:33:46 splittist: I would think it would be hard to find usable stuff that old. 09:35:35 spiaggia: it depends on whether you're talking 'programs' or 'designs'. Pick your favourite 18th century first edition, encode the font, and you're away laughing (; 09:35:36 I mean, if a designer made a font when he/she was 30 years old, and lived to be 70, then you would have to wait 110 years to be able to use it freely. 09:36:05 splittist: yes, but those fonts are very elaborate and not very good on low-resolution devices. 09:37:52 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA28A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:38:06 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA65B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:38:22 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 09:39:05 spiaggia: lcds are about 120 dpi nowadays. Is it still low-res? 09:39:28 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:40:16 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:41:19 tiesje``` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 09:42:47 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.62.102] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:42:55 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.207.3] has joined #lisp 09:43:12 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska153183.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:44:21 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:45:27 matimago: I would consider anything below 300 dpi to be low-res, but it's getting there. 09:50:50 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-156-65.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:32 Kickaha [n=user@8.153.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 09:51:57 -!- Kickaha [n=user@8.153.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 09:56:39 Hi! What solutions do you use for pulling in the latest version of a library? Do you manually download for each library or use wrappers like clbuild? 09:57:20 hehe 09:57:31 ebzzry: darcs, or git pull 09:57:57 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:58:02 morning. 09:58:05 tcr: So if you have 20 libraries that you depend on, do you use those commands manually? 09:58:18 ebzzry: i have a subversion repository that i update from whatever version control system the upstream source uses (or tarballs if there is no vcs). for deployment, i then pull the stuff out of my svn. deployment is fast that way. 09:58:29 tcr: 20 times, or use a somewhat (semi-)automated mechanism 09:58:34 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:58:40 ebzzry: it is probably fair to say that for every downloading solution imaginable, someone here is using it 09:58:46 H4ns: OK 09:58:55 you, too, can make your own choice 09:59:03 lichtblau: OK 09:59:15 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-167-55.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:02:44 -!- tiesje`` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:04:16 nostoi [n=nostoi@133.Red-83-34-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:04:57 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:05:37 hello lispers 10:07:05 Hi! 10:16:50 setf [i=8f5d37dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a38a809fe076cef9] has joined #lisp 10:17:40 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:18:52 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:19:56 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:20:38 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:23:53 bartiosze [n=user@ejf118.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:25:19 setf1 [i=8f5d37dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ab526e2f23a168f0] has joined #lisp 10:26:10 -!- bartiosze [n=user@ejf118.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:26:34 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [] 10:27:00 -!- setf [i=8f5d37dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a38a809fe076cef9] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 10:27:46 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:35:28 manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 10:37:55 appletizer [i=a@82-32-123-243.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:39:59 aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:42:01 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:51:04 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.227.26] has joined #lisp 10:52:25 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 10:56:41 -!- tiesje``` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:57:07 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 10:57:08 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 10:57:42 holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:04 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:00:50 lichtblau: If I wanted to parse an xml file would you recommend DOM or list representation? 11:03:19 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:03:59 well, whenever I tried using list representations for XML I didn't find them very convenient, so I prefer object models 11:04:38 thanks :) 11:04:39 Edi has a reasonable lisp list builder in cl-webdav though, so if you're going that route, I recommend using his model 11:05:36 Most importantly, he gets namespaces right (which is tha part most naive xml-as-list models get wrong, making them pretty useless in practise). 11:06:13 Note that Plexippus XPath currently works best with cxml-STP, in case you need/want XPath. 11:07:43 lichtblau: so far my needs are very basic but thanks for the hints! 11:12:10 Kickaha [n=user@bl4-158-55.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 11:14:02 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a60-062.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:15:57 is there any validating xml parser? 11:16:18 -!- BabyBee [n=huanglia@61.181.247.146] has quit [] 11:16:39 setf1: there is a relaxng validator for cxml. 11:17:29 setf1: cxml is a validating parser if used with :VALIDATE T 11:17:38 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 11:17:52 but I can use cxml only with closure? 11:18:14 setf1: closure (the web browser) != clozure (the cl implementation) 11:18:31 -!- scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:18:31 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-13.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:18:31 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:18:31 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:18:31 -!- simonb [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:18:31 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:18:31 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:18:31 -!- azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:18:31 -!- pwned [n=epitaph@78.176.99.185] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:18:31 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:18:31 -!- yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-24-19-6-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:18:31 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:18:31 -!- e271 [i=[9EPvP7H@panix3.panix.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 11:18:52 I'm currently using xmls and xml-psychiatrist, but its pretty slow 11:19:02 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 11:19:02 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-13.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:19:02 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 11:19:02 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:02 simonb [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has joined #lisp 11:19:02 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 11:19:02 nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 11:19:02 azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 11:19:02 pwned [n=epitaph@78.176.99.185] has joined #lisp 11:19:02 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:02 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-24-19-6-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:02 DrForr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has joined #lisp 11:19:02 e271 [i=[9EPvP7H@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 11:19:15 ohjear, clozure (there is also clojure, the lisp dialect :)) 11:23:43 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:23:51 well, any remaining speed advantages cxml might or might not have would be due to gilbert's original work, not mine. I've focused more on features and correctness than optimization. 11:24:25 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.66.158] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:24:45 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.66.158] has joined #lisp 11:27:47 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:31:18 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 11:31:31 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [] 11:38:01 mulligan [n=user@e178010250.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:38:08 mulligan` [n=user@e178010250.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 11:40:09 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@133.Red-83-34-155.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 11:42:02 -!- nimo [n=user@116.224.219.168] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:44:27 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:45:40 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 11:46:55 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 11:46:56 -!- setf1 [i=8f5d37dc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ab526e2f23a168f0] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 11:47:58 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 11:48:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 11:49:05 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:49:11 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:51:13 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 11:57:22 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:57:50 mib_bl7ad8 [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-aa84fd64ae326feb] has joined #lisp 11:58:38 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:58:49 mechine [n=mutable@dsl-220-253-70-173.NSW.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:58:49 -!- mib_bl7ad8 is now known as kiuma 12:08:39 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.18] has joined #lisp 12:10:49 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:15:27 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-138-22.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:00 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:16:36 setf [i=8f5df9d8@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f2db0a939e21f596] has joined #lisp 12:16:59 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.18] has quit ["Valete!"] 12:18:46 -!- me-so-stupid [i=proxy@77.236.84.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:19:03 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:20:40 ejs_ [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 12:20:43 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:26:16 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:30:42 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 12:33:29 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:36:11 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:37:59 -!- netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-156-65.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:39:26 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:40:10 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 12:41:37 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-176-28.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 12:42:28 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 12:45:13 how many of you lisp coders are hunting for jobs 12:45:23 got one? :) 12:45:38 I'd guess you do. 12:45:43 nope. 12:45:56 just interested to know 12:47:55 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 12:50:22 etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-55-91.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:54 NoorDextor: in general, lispers can find jobs using other programming languages. 12:52:13 NoorDextor: a better question would be: how many of you lisp coders are happy with your day job? 12:52:38 yes, good point 12:52:56 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:55:25 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 12:59:07 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.66.158] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:59:29 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.66.158] has joined #lisp 12:59:50 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-e461618e7f1c8a9c] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:00:35 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 13:01:42 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-317664e4b82ed66a] has joined #lisp 13:03:42 -!- etfb [n=etfb@ppp59-167-55-91.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["KVIrc 3.2.4 Anomalies http://www.kvirc.net/"] 13:04:53 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 13:05:41 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:06:00 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:06:00 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-138-22.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:06:16 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 13:06:22 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 13:07:06 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:11:31 netaust1n [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-147-93.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:35 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 13:18:52 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:19:31 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:19:43 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 13:20:01 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086155.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 13:22:41 -!- netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@adsl-70-130-176-28.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:23:35 mogunus: If you ever write that blog, tell me! I like to read decent code. If you don't like it, signal it in your blog-post. The comments could be a great read for people warming themselves in lisp 13:23:49 me not! 13:24:01 being on crappy java code 13:24:26 kiuma: I'm a student, about 85% of the obligatory code I write is Java too 13:25:38 mindCrime [n=chatzill@216.27.62.2] has joined #lisp 13:25:50 If I find time between the obligatory social time and school projects, I like to /(learn about)|(code in)/ lisp. 13:26:38 madnificent: for me one point of unhappiness is java the other is crappy code 13:27:02 crappy code more 13:27:50 good java code is better than crappy common lisp code 13:28:14 not that i have seen or worked with bad code in any of these ;) 13:28:32 minion: chant 13:28:32 MORE ON FEATURES 13:29:30 !? 13:31:11 it'd have to be pretty crappy common lisp code to be worse than good java code, given that good java code likely still translates to crappy common lisp code 13:31:40 ignas: sadly, I'm not really impressed by the quality of Java-code I may see... Somehow it seems to me, that people that only know Java, tend to create horrible abstractions (if any) 13:31:42 although maybe that isn't a fair way to compare things 13:31:43 mozzyb [n=mozzyb@196.80-203-61.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:32:52 Hi, does anyone know of a site with lots of lisp programs I could look at? 13:33:00 common-lisp.net ? 13:33:17 http://weitz.de/ 13:33:40 Thanks. I'll have a look. 13:34:06 http://www.xach.com/ 13:34:34 first one has a lot of code, the other two are examples of very good code 13:34:38 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:34:40 IMHO 13:34:54 mozzyb: if you want to look straight at the code, you can start here: http://bknr.net/trac/browser/trunk/thirdparty/ 13:36:46 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 13:37:47 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.66.158] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:38:00 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 13:38:02 by the way - is the quality of common-lisp code so good in general, or is it just me not knowing the language well enough to spot the deficiencies? 13:38:08 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.66.158] has joined #lisp 13:38:21 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 13:38:23 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 13:39:19 ignas: it takes quite some experience to start with common lisp, so there is less code created by absolute beginners. but all in all, i have seen some pretty bad common lisp code, too. bad code is not language specific i'd say. 13:40:48 One thing about Common Lisp is to try to avoid baggage from other languages. 13:41:12 yeah, took me a few months to stop doing that 13:41:33 ignas: what H4ns might want to say: Sometimes absolute beginners get here (like I did) and they post their first steps into lisp... At that moment in time, you get to see bad lisp code (for the record, I never got flamed over it). 13:41:55 madnificent: :) well - i am talking about released code, like libraries and applications 13:42:36 ignas: i cannot say that the common lisp library base is generally of higher quality than other open source library bases for languages. some of the libraries that are available are pretty bad. 13:42:52 ignas: (in terms of architecture, internal structure, documentation, whatever) 13:43:32 ignas: IMHO most code has a decent level. Perhaps it is because inexperienced lispers gain a lot of experience whilst writing lisp-code. By the time they've created their library, they realize that it should be rewritten, instead of released. (Just a feeling I have) 13:44:52 H4ns: yeah, though - there are a lot of libraries like ediware, or Xach written stuff that are actually good 13:45:24 H4ns: and sometimes i find difficult pointing people at really good examples of python code, even though I love the language 13:47:07 I have to make a text menu in one of my programs (for school), does anyone know of any good examples? 13:50:03 mozzyb: I have written a very very very basic thing to handle text-menus (about 30 loc, I guess)... It might _help_ you 13:50:10 mozzyb: what is your project about? 14:01:43 bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-174-7.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:01:55 willb [n=wibenton@wireless57.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:02:05 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:02:52 What method would you use to count the appearances of each symbol in a list? the length of the list and the number of different symbols are ofc arbitrary. 14:03:29 bertskert: i'd use a hash table 14:03:29 associative list? and just increment and add along the way? 14:03:36 kami-` [n=user@p4FD388EF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:03:38 bertskert: right. 14:03:41 ok 14:04:37 clhs count 14:04:37 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_countc.htm 14:05:12 locklace: i think he wants 'uniq -c' 14:07:38 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 14:07:40 -!- esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit ["Computer has gone to sleep"] 14:12:24 What is the best way to "run" a .lisp file with SBCL? (I am open for pointing to me to where I can find the answer or a direct answer) 14:12:43 Because, I don't know, the way I am doing things surely isn't right. 14:13:16 Quadrescence: LOAD? 14:13:32 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 14:13:36 Good afternoon 14:13:48 plage sounds French 14:13:51 and I see .fr 14:13:52 :o 14:14:12 Quadrescence: but if you're in SLIME, C-c C-k in the file's buffer. 14:14:30 Quadrescence: sbcl --load foo.lisp should work. Check man sbcl for more info. You could preload through a dumped core. 14:14:35 Quadrescence: I use `beach', `spiaggia' and 'Ufer' as well 14:14:54 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:14:55 plage: Oh, beach! 14:14:56 :) 14:15:23 Quadrescence: `beach' at home, `spiaggia' in my office, and `plage' on my laptop. 14:15:29 Quadrescence: --load seems to work too (and is probably better, since it will probably compile your application) 14:15:30 madnificent: sellout: Thank you. I'll have to look at the slime PDF more carefully. 14:15:58 What is the difference between compiling+loading as opposed to just compiling? 14:15:59 hi plage 14:16:05 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:11 I think it's C-c C-k and C-c M-k respectfully in slime 14:16:16 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:17:58 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:18:08 Did I miss a Lisp meeting yesterday? 14:19:29 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:20:48 Quadrescence: hmm. what do you mean? if you have some stuff in foo.cl you can compile it, but you have to load it to make the stuff in it part of your cl environment. 14:21:19 hi hypno! 14:21:40 tic: yo. :) 14:22:05 hypno, three Lispers in Gothenburg should be enough for LUGG meeting. 14:22:10 (some day) 14:22:13 tic: heh 14:24:37 hypno: That was another thing I was going to ask -- how to "restart" the cl environment (to rid all bindings and what have you). 14:24:48 I've been closing and reopening emacs. :( 14:25:12 -!- ``Erik_ is now known as ``Erik 14:25:26 Quadrescence: i think the answer is to make a package and do your fiddling in that and then delete-package to "restart". 14:25:51 Am I the only one having problems reaching the annotatable CLIM spec? 14:26:18 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 14:26:25 Good morning! 14:26:28 plage: works for me 14:26:32 hello auclairb 14:26:32 moin auclairb 14:27:03 Quadrescence: ,restart-inferior-lisp in slime 14:27:22 Just passing by to say a big THANK YOU to everyone on the channel, your support is very much appreciated! 14:27:24 pierre_thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has joined #lisp 14:27:25 stassats: thanks! 14:27:33 -!- durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has quit [] 14:27:40 Was anyone working on an annotated Hyperspec, or were there copyright issues? 14:28:07 people get scared by the copyright issues 14:28:17 I don't know if anyone has actually sought legal advice, mind you 14:28:41 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:28:59 what is an "annotated" hyperspec as opposed to just a hyperspec? 14:29:00 Mhm, it tends to die out in a "don't want to risk anything, legal advice is to expensive". Which I understand. 14:29:14 hypno, one containing useful annotations - examples, perhaps. 14:29:30 I'd have thought that a good annotated hyperspec would self-fund through targeted adverts 14:29:50 (minus the cost of actually producing the annotations, but that tends to be counted as given) 14:29:51 Would work if it could be promoted as The One True URL 14:31:02 -!- ejs_ [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:31:20 ejs_ [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 14:31:33 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 14:31:43 stassats: ,restart-... worked like a charm. Thanks! 14:32:24 the copyright issue can be avoided I think 14:33:19 OdinsGhost [n=Miranda@ip-90-186-210-124.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 14:34:04 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:34:28 p_l: how? http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/Help.htm#Legal doesn't hold out a whole bunch of hope on its face. 14:34:35 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:35:03 I'm trying to get Lichteblau's SBCL fork () to try his relocation stuff but git branch doesn't show me the relocation branch. Anyone know what I'm doing wrong? 14:35:15 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 14:35:39 git branch -r # shows remote branches 14:35:43 luis, git branch -r 14:35:53 git checkout -b relocation origin/relocation # makes a tracking branch 14:36:27 (also, not a bad idea to read a quick git tutorial :)) 14:36:31 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Client Quit] 14:36:46 xan: I'm spoiled by darcs I guess. :-) 14:37:33 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:38:54 xan, lichtblau: thanks, that worked. 14:41:23 luis: I am learning git very slowly at the moment 14:41:29 we can be clueless newbs together 14:42:07 splittist: It seems that would require either simply asking lispworks, or writing it a new (using CLHS as a source is possible in this case) 14:42:14 ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-141-92-135.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:42:20 Xof: did you actually have to read anything to use darcs? I don't remember reading much. 14:42:42 Xof: the more i dive into the git docs the more clueless i am about the git hype... 14:42:44 Is CLOCC of any practical use nowadays? 14:43:22 my mistake was reading about git before trying to use it 14:43:24 luis: I don't remember. I will say that git at the moment is making some things very convenient 14:43:26 ebzzry: this is two questions in one. 14:43:29 also, what lichtblau says 14:43:38 matimago: OK, continue. 14:43:39 ebzzry: are there are useful libraries or program that use clocc? 14:43:50 ebzzry: do you find any useful code in clocc for your projects? 14:43:51 at the moment, I have about three git commands working (+ git-svn + git-cvs, because that's what's making it compelling right now) 14:44:17 pkhuong: aroundp 14:44:22 p_l: Lispworks is just claiming (c) in the markup. The important stuff is (c) ANSI. 14:44:33 matimago: Is it still practical to use CLOCC nowadays? Are any code in CLOCC present outside CLOCC which are more actively maintained. 14:44:58 splittist: Use of standard text as source still applies 14:45:01 well, i did try using git before i went to the docs, as i usually do with everything. and with this attitude, i'm a happy darcs user... 14:45:06 -!- ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-141-92-135.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Client Quit] 14:45:10 ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-141-92-135.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:45:37 attila_lendvai: that is such a helpful way of putting it! Thank you so much! 14:45:39 p_l: Sorry, I don't follow. 14:45:46 splittist: In case of CLHS they actually used the documents verbatim, according to what I had read on the legal page 14:46:44 You guys link it all the time, and I apologize for asking again, but, where is the information on making a stand-alone executable (with SBCL)? Is there more info than the SAVE-LISP-AND-DIE command? I am just looking to make a simple helloworld executable, just to see how the process works. 14:46:54 -!- ivansto [i=ivans@93-138-22-68.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:47:06 splittist: no copyright (well, maybe in US, but US copyright law is about something completely different from copyright) is infringed if you write an equivalent of CLHS using the text as source (i.e. no copy-paste, rewrite!) 14:47:14 *attila_lendvai* goes to the dictionary to translate what he said... :) 14:47:20 Quadrescence, have a peek at the SBCL manual, or my website. I wrote a short blurb there 14:47:31 tic: Link to your site please? 14:47:33 Sec. 14:47:37 Alright. 14:47:39 http://mikael.jansson.be/journal/2008/03/freezing-lisp-in-time 14:47:51 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:48:02 tic: gracias 14:48:04 ebzzry: perhaps you could make an inventory of the features implemented in clocc, and see if there's a more modern equivalent elsewhere? For example, defsystem lives in clocc, but nowadays most new (and old) libraries use asdf. 14:48:06 p_l: you mean a deriviative work? Rewrite the standard to use different words with the same meaning? 14:48:50 matimago: OK. 14:48:55 splittist: no, actually typing it in afresh should do. 14:49:05 so we need a fast typist? 14:49:06 splittist: Write it with your own words, using standard as "research source", possibly using various implementations as sources too 14:49:16 hmm, handle-repaint doesn't seem to call repaint-sheet. I wonder why. 14:49:35 splittist: a few years ago, a german company paid a few hundred chinese touch typists to type in all the german phone books because the copyright owner did not want to share the data. no joke. 14:49:37 Actually, it might be a good way to introduce new things (like standard networking interface!) 14:50:19 *p_l* would love a plan9-style network paths 14:50:27 ddsmith [n=ddsmith@12.6.239.179] has joined #lisp 14:50:34 p_l, don't you have network paths already in CL? 14:50:42 tic: Only for files 14:50:53 p_l, you want arbitrary resources? 14:50:55 it's based on built-in file interchange of some OS 14:51:04 tic: I want network paths for network connections 14:51:12 ebzzry: also, once you've got an equivalence list, it would be interesting to gather a list of programs or libraries using clocc, and update them to use the new libraries instead. 14:51:16 like "tcp!www.google.com!80" 14:51:27 ebzzry: (there may be not many of them actually). 14:51:51 esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 14:51:55 H4ns: If you created a new markup of the ANSI text you would not be in breach of LispWorks (c), no. But you would be of ANSI's. Or am I misunderstanding you? 14:52:26 splittist: If you host it outside US? won't cause a problem 14:52:29 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:52:36 splittist: i'm not a lawyer - i was just reporting that copyright actually allowed that company to sell the data that the chinese typists typed in. 14:52:37 does anybody have an idea whether redefining a structure type via deftype has defined consequences? 14:52:58 (in particular, what do you do about subclasses?) 14:53:28 tic: Imagine an interface like this: (dial "tcp!www.google.com!80") => a stream-like object for connection 14:53:40 H4ns: I suspec the legal issues were slightly different in that case. 14:53:55 splittist: quite possible. 14:53:57 Structures don't behave well under redefinition... 14:54:06 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 14:54:12 p_l: (c) is pretty global. 14:54:17 splittist: I suspect american copyright law is not really international :) 14:54:26 ... unlike Classes per se. 14:54:43 p_l, what's stopping you from doing that now? ;) 14:54:59 ddsmith: sure, but that's not the question I asked. 14:55:21 tic: i think in order for such a project to be a success, the legal issues must be resolved first. 14:55:27 tic: Just came into my mind. But that's my proposition as a future standard CL network interface 14:55:33 p_l: True. But why would you doubt that ANSI really does have a valid copyright in the standard? 14:55:40 Sry then, diregard my non-answer. 14:55:43 p_l: what's the point of that interface? 14:55:50 tic: Based on Plan9 implementation 14:56:19 locklace: Lack of being bound to particular network system - when you want to switch from tcp to sctp, you only change the path 14:56:28 p_l: "everything is a " is bunk. 14:56:53 kreuter: Better still than BSD sockets :) 14:57:04 H4ns, yup. that question keeps surfacing. 14:57:04 um 14:57:07 14:57:15 p_l: i mean what's the point? what are you trying to achieve? a file is not the same as a tcp stream is not the same as a udp datagram 14:57:32 splittist: I'm not questioning copyright. I'm questioning whether it's copyright would forbid such work 14:57:52 locklace: a uniform interface, like there is for file pathnames 14:57:57 p_l: why go with textual markup/identifiers instead of keywords? the underlying protocol seems to me to be irrelevant w.r.t. the path. 14:58:24 p_l: a uniform interface to what? 14:58:30 p_l: isn't the unification thing what pathnames fail at? 14:58:30 hypno: That is okay too - the pathname way simply known to me already 14:59:14 H4ns: I haven't seen pathname they could represent, especially since no one dared to make a more complicated system than what they met when they designed CL pathnames 14:59:51 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 14:59:59 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-195-62.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:01 afk - time to change rooms, lecture has ended 15:00:31 p_l: i think the cl pathname system is pretty daring, but it fails for two reasons: it tries to unify different file systems that no longer exist now except for one, and the one model that exists now is not properly covered. 15:02:10 than again, when NTFS and EXT5 get built-in versioning, CL will be ready! 15:02:35 cmm-: we'll see. i'm not all that confident. 15:03:11 Let's all switch to VMS. 15:03:11 withanx [n=xstegner@208.72.99.2] has joined #lisp 15:03:15 -!- withanx [n=xstegner@208.72.99.2] has left #lisp 15:03:21 tic: count me in! 15:03:51 it's called WNT now, they say 15:03:56 Heh. 15:04:17 at least it's clear what pathnames are an interface to. i don't follow what p_l wants to interface to at all 15:05:27 x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@tmo-096-35.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:01 /dev/null is interface to what? 15:06:17 the garbage collector 15:07:00 -!- OdinsGhost [n=Miranda@ip-90-186-210-124.web.vodafone.de] has quit [] 15:07:53 actually something like /dev/random is much more problematic 15:09:31 so, pathnames are interface to some data 15:10:25 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 15:11:26 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4f1f.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:11:32 cmm-: doesn't Microsoft's highly-imaginary vista-related file system have versioning? 15:12:01 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 15:12:32 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-34.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:12:33 rsynnott: no idea! I think it was supposed to be database-like instead, but who can tell with vapor 15:12:38 elurin [n=user@85.99.168.94] has joined #lisp 15:12:44 hmm. i've always considered it the lisp way of organizing meta-data. extending MAKE-PATHNAME seems quite doable and very elegant too. not sure what the problems really are? 15:13:01 p_l: while American copyright law is not international, most countries are signatories to a series of treaties promising to respect each others' copyright, within reason 15:13:36 (even if they weren't, copyright for the ANSI standard would by default lie with ANSI as a legal entity; you don't have to register copyright) 15:13:38 hypno: i love them, too. they are just not portable if you try handling directories as files (hah!) or if you insist on processing symbolic links with them. 15:14:24 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:14:47 so you'll have to write your own hyperspec, probably ;) 15:15:01 scl has urls as pathnames 15:15:45 (though it would be entirely legal to say have an emacs extension which permitted users to overlay shared annotation data on their own copies of the spec) 15:15:49 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:15:53 -!- appletizer [i=a@82-32-123-243.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [] 15:15:59 stassats: is that allowed? 15:16:14 rsynnott: i have no idea 15:16:29 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-59.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:33 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has left #lisp 15:16:39 sounds like one of those abstractions which rapidly becomes more trouble than it's worth 15:16:44 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 15:16:46 rsynnott: i think what the "Legal" message says is: we don't want you to do anything (anything really) with this. 15:17:26 H4ns: that's all very well, but in very few countries is such a requirement actually entirely valid 15:17:33 H4ns: hmm. is this due to the vagueness in the spec or are there inherent problems with CL to deal with this? symlinks is perhaps an issue on UNIX, and "/" and "\", etc but all of that crap should be possible to hide deep down in the (quite possibly extended) pathname implementation, dont you think? 15:17:40 rsynnott: so even if it may be "legal" to use an emacs extension or to overlay the web site with some smart javascript stuff that does the annotation, it is still against the expressed will in that paragraph. 15:18:14 (so for instance it is NOT a breach of a blogger's copyright to use adblocking stuff on their site, or even to use some firefox extension which allows users to share annotations on the site - such things exist) 15:18:23 hypno: the spec just does not cover some things, leaving interpretation up to the implementors. 15:18:27 H4ns: yep, probably; legal, but not very nice 15:18:51 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:18:56 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:19:19 hypno: the problem with that is that there are multiple approaches to, say, abstracting over symlinks 15:20:47 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 15:20:48 matimago: OK. 15:20:54 rsynnott: well, yes. though i think the SBCL folks have enough creds to actually create a de-facto standard. 15:20:55 hypno: also, consider this.certainly.legal.file.name which has no "type" or maybe .emacs. unix has killed the concept of a file name extension as reflecting the "type" of a file. 15:21:46 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has quit ["A way a lone a last a loved a long the..."] 15:21:51 and macs sometimes have separate type information attached to a file 15:22:04 or /bin/ls 15:22:23 (this isn't really used that much these days, but is still actually valid in MacOS X) 15:22:24 re future versioning filesystems: ZFS has versioning already (well, snapshots), and as far as I understand them, PATHNAME-VERSION doesn't provide any benefit there 15:24:54 lichtblau: You mean that it doesn't in current implementations, or it fundamentally can't? 15:25:25 lichtblau: I don't really know anything about ZFS snapshots. 15:25:35 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:25:38 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 15:25:44 -!- wedgeV [n=wedgeV@85.31.0.85] has quit [] 15:26:08 PATHNAME-VERSION probably has the clearest meaning on NTFS with shadow copies. 15:26:57 it could actually be vaguely useful if you had a version control system available as a 'filesystem' 15:26:58 sellout: IIUC, pathname-version is about a simple, integer-indexed, per-file versioning system, while zfs does copy-on-write, full-filesystem snapshotting 15:28:47 are there functions I can use to read file creation/access datetime? 15:28:53 clhs file-write-date 15:28:53 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_file_w.htm 15:28:58 in openvms, when you open a file for writing, you'll normally not overwrite any existing file with the same name, but create a new version. version numbers increase per file, and a path name can include an explicit version number. 15:29:01 thanks! 15:29:19 Cel: I don't know about access time. Generally it's a bad concept anyway. 15:29:25 the openvms model is reflected well in the pathname system. 15:30:20 'access' time can mean just about anything depending on FS, platform and phase of moon 15:30:52 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 15:31:23 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:55 ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:32 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:33:45 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs3.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:37:27 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsly149.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:38:01 implementations are permitted to use any kind of value in any component of any pathname, and also to add new pathname component fields. 15:38:13 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:40:15 Probably another common question: what are ways to decrease executable size? I hear the keyword "tree shaking" 15:40:26 luis: is there a way in babel to enforce utf-16 endinanness? i can't seem to find anything about this... 15:41:02 rsynnott: What I suggested about copyright was that it's quite possible that under other copyright systems, such a work would be accepted, while not breaching original copyright 15:42:31 <_3b> Quadrescence: switching implementations is an easy strategy (clisp executables for example are much smaller than sbcl), some implementations have options to reduce executable size as well, tree shakers being a common one 15:42:48 milanj [n=milan@93.86.186.238] has joined #lisp 15:43:05 <_3b> not sure how many if any of the free lisps have tree shakers though 15:43:10 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:22 _3b: Ah. I really have no problem with the executable sizes, but it is just something I wonder. 15:43:37 I actually think executables are a lot more powerful with lisp. :) 15:43:42 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@78-1-191-177.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:44:41 minion: chant 15:44:41 MORE POWERFUL 15:45:15 kreuter: Also, while I agree with the general statement that "everything is a " is bunk, could you point to any certain problems with "everything is a filesystem tree"? (I don't want a flamewar, though) 15:47:18 p_l: I don't think any modern copyright regeime allows derivative works without permission, except for academic, free speech, news and satire protections 15:47:54 p_l, the behaviour of the returned objects, maybe? 15:48:27 i.e., you get heterogenous objects back. 15:48:29 p_l: I don't think I agree with that. 15:48:45 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:15 p_l: in particular, "filesystem tree" isn't well defined, really. 15:49:48 rsynnott: depends on definition of "derivative work". In polish copyright law (I had to read the damned thing...) it's not considered derivative work if it doesn't contain significant portion of the original 15:49:50 for example, some historical file systems have used different namespaces for directories than for files. 15:49:55 p_l: sounds like you just want to reinvent urls 15:50:22 so that you could have a file "foo" and a directory "foo" rooted at the same place. 15:50:52 (I forget, don't LDAP directories let you do this?) 15:51:18 locklace: Well, the exact syntax doesn't really matter from my point of view, as long as the result is an interface that doesn't have BSD sockets' problems with different types of networks 15:53:06 locklace: So that if all I want is a stream-oriented connection, all I need to do to change for example from TCP to, for example, direct ATM connection is the connection string 15:53:38 locklace: Or if I wanted to switch from IPv4 to IPv6, to issue a more recent problem 15:53:57 p_l: what's the point of using a string there, rather than a data structure (at least in a real language)? 15:54:51 p_l: sounds like you just want to use a string to encode all your socket information 15:55:06 kreuter: "convenience" "easy parseability" 15:55:54 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:56:27 you will basically end up with urls 15:56:49 locklace: urls describe resources, not network connection parameters. 15:57:23 locklace: kind of, but the URL scheme doesn't map well to connections 15:58:00 H4ns: maybe, but at the expense of "easy to screw up manipulation routines", and "needing to parse them all over the place". 15:58:03 Soulman__ [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 15:58:16 what's a connection? is specifying a remote udp port a connection? 15:58:38 p_l: the possible number of different parameters needed to establish a connection makes a simple, string-based representation blow up rather sooner than later. 15:58:40 kreuter: Parse them only when you create a "socket" object 15:58:43 kreuter: i agree. 15:59:23 p_l: in the old days, you used a configuration tool to configure connection, and then used a symbolic name in your program to access that configuration. configuration of connections was the job of the o/s, and application code was not concerned with it. 15:59:28 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:59:49 locklace: I guess I used the wrong word ("connection" isn't really a good choice in the case of udp ^^;) 16:00:01 I have the impression that this discussion boils down to "if all you want from networking are named streams, then your network API ought to traffic in names and streams". 16:00:03 H4ns: any idea why we don't have that anymore? 16:00:11 i'm not saying that this is a very convenient approach, but it does not suffer from the limited scalability of "cram everything into a string" approach. 16:00:42 p_l: yeah, i just don't get the exact thing you want to represent 16:00:43 madnificent: at some point, system programmers and operators where fired and we programmers were supposed to do such stuff ourselves. 16:00:52 there are plenty of higher level network apis out there than bsd sockets 16:01:18 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has joined #lisp 16:01:45 locklace: Well, let's say that I had seen it work as the basic API for networking, and it created a rather future-proof situation. That's what gave me the idea :) 16:02:04 H4ns: how does that work if you don't know what you need to talk to until runtime? 16:02:20 locklace: what do you mean by "that"? 16:02:57 this whole 'reperesent everything with a URL' thing doesn't tend to work that well 16:03:05 look at JDBC connection specifiers, say 16:03:24 confusing URL-lookalikes with behaviour specified by the driver 16:03:26 rsynnott: it's pretty good at solving the problem "represent everything as a URL", though :) 16:03:54 H4ns: the idea of having "the system" configure your "connections" in advance 16:04:13 H4ns: which is pure idiocracy, right? I mean, it's a manager's choice, so it doesn't necessarily contain much good for us... 16:04:26 locklace: not "in advance", but outside of applications 16:04:51 there are still some systems which sort of do that 16:05:00 (ODBC and openssh can, for instance) 16:05:22 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go"] 16:06:43 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:08:13 H4ns: so, same question 16:08:33 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 16:08:36 p_l: so you basically want a string representation for all the stuff encoded in sockaddr structures? 16:08:43 Well, I think I'll play with the concept some time later. 16:09:09 locklace: Or a lisp-specific one, though one that will make it easy to switch underlying protocol etc. 16:10:01 i don't think having such a syntax will make it easy to switch underlying protocols 16:10:04 i.e. if all you need is a stream-oriented connection, you don't need to know anything more except the "url" (or whatever it ends up being) 16:10:13 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086155.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:10:23 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086155.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 16:10:27 if you want that, you're really looking for a higher-level network api that abstracts different kinds of communication 16:10:38 p_l: until the abstraction breaks down somewhere 16:10:44 perhaps a string-representation could be used for "simple cases". Strings are generally easier to work with, so for quickly trying something, it could be handy. 16:11:04 (I'm reminded of the tendency in python to use fake file handles for everything) 16:11:13 works well enough in most cases, occasionally breaks horribly 16:12:11 you can generally, if a library insists on doing its IO through such a fake file, use an equivalent of with-output-to-string/with-input-from-string to get your data in a buffer 16:12:21 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska153183.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:12:30 except when the library quietly does something actually file related with the file handle, and everything breaks 16:12:33 locklace: You could say that spending too much time reading 9fans mailing list seeds you full of similar ideas (plan9 mounts network stack as a filesystem) 16:13:24 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13:54 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:15:04 p_l: let it go! it's dead! 16:15:16 *rsynnott* used to have a plan9 installation 16:15:24 quite nice, but sadly it really is dead 16:15:31 was it ever alive? 16:15:47 rsynnott: Except for BG/L and some storage systems :P 16:16:02 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:16:09 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 16:16:53 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 16:17:03 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a60-062.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:17:07 rsynnott: I wouldn't use Plan9 as my main system, but they've got a lot of things right. Unfortunately lately the discussion on 9fans is composed more of flaming, but sometimes interesting and valuable stuff can be seen 16:17:19 stassats: not as such 16:17:25 but even Bell has given up on it now 16:17:36 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 16:17:36 c|mell [n=cmell@d28851-156.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:17:50 *stassats* lost interest in plan9 after encountering lisp 16:17:51 (Bell Labs always puzzled me a bit; they seem to spend most of their effort on massive projects which don't go anywhere) 16:18:06 stassats: one's an OS, the other's a language :S 16:18:44 (I do think it's a shame that we seem to be stuck with effectively the descendents of SysV and WINNT; no-one's done anything terribly innovative in operating systems for qutie a while) 16:18:58 rsynnott: no, it's ideology 16:19:49 rsynnott: Bell Labs dissolved most of it's software research facilities long ago, but Plan9 is still developed, mostly by the community (there's still some people at bell labs working with it/on it, as well as in IBM and Coraid. Plus Inferno is used in various embedded projects) 16:19:53 Didn't IBM just adopt plan9 some lil' time back? 16:20:11 bell still does a fair bit of software work, I think 16:20:28 schme: BG/L is getting Plan9 as new cluster OS 16:20:33 the bit in Dublin does compilers research (albeit largely for hardware applications) 16:20:39 Right. 16:20:56 Cymew [n=user@U2.N59.QueensU.CA] has joined #lisp 16:21:15 schme: They are currently looking forward for the first boot with all cores running (that will be >200k cpus) 16:21:40 it already works on around 1024 nodes IIRC 16:21:48 Anyone tried to compile clx with sbcl lately? I get odd messages I don't understand. 16:21:49 That's very nice. 16:22:07 I hope it runs on solar power. 16:22:08 Cymew: where did you get clx? 16:22:52 http://ftp.linux.org.uk/pub/lisp/sbcl/clx_0.7.3.tar.gz 16:23:02 try http://common-lisp.net/~crhodes/clx 16:23:06 as from the cliki link 16:23:08 schme: There's also some work on getting a Linux-based development environment so that all the people used to writing their code in Fortran 90 using IBM compilers could target plan9 BG/L 16:23:09 it's darcs 16:23:39 Do I have to install and learn darcs then? 16:23:45 I heard something amusing about bell labs on the radio the other day. Apperently they're part of Satans big conspiracy to ruin the land of God. 16:23:53 install, yes, learn, no 16:23:55 schme: running a large computer on solar panel probably verges on physically impossible 16:24:22 you don't even need to install darcs. darcs repositories can be pulled down with wget. 16:24:31 given that solar cells produce an immense amount of waste heat and most of the energy cost of running a large computer is cooling 16:24:44 ok? wget http://foo? 16:24:55 rsynnott: Well they could clock it down ;) 16:25:00 schme: what, bell labs? Is it because they're owned by the french now? 16:25:22 er, something like that. you may want to write a custom fetcher, as wget -R tends to be stupid. 16:25:22 what 16:25:27 were you listening to your local psychiatric hospital's radio station by any chance? :) 16:26:02 installing darcs is faster, than trying to figure out wget options 16:26:07 -!- splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 16:26:17 wget just complains so I guess I have to install darcs 16:26:47 okay. I've never needed to install darcs to fetch stuff. 16:26:50 schme: define land of God :P 16:26:57 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 16:27:04 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:27:08 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:27:11 *Sigh* dependecies... 16:27:17 rsynnott: Well.. it was some bizarre christian sect sending a program on a local radio channel. Some guy going on about how Satan was spreading through the banks, and through computers. He pointed out thinks like there were companies named Lucid Technologies, and Alcatel-Lucent. And with "Lucent" and "Lucid" in the name, how could it not be Satan's work? And one of these owned the company bell-labs who made operating systems and therefor Satan controlled 16:27:36 Cymew, darcs get or something. should be easy. 16:27:36 besiria` [n=user@ppp083212086155.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 16:27:42 schme: USA I guess? 16:27:44 p_l: I have no idea. 16:27:47 Nope. Sweden. 16:27:52 When I have darcs installed, yes.... 16:28:07 I laughed anyway. 16:28:09 schme: interesting. 16:28:24 Uhm.. yes.. ;) 16:28:47 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:28:54 f*ck. Darcs depend on something that's unmaintained. 16:29:00 p_l, are you located in Poland? 16:29:25 tic: Kind of obvious ^^; 16:29:38 Well, right now I'm in UK 16:29:41 kreuter: Do you have a wget in your command history that can grab a darcs respository? 16:30:19 uh 16:30:21 one moment 16:30:37 Cymew, depends on what that's unmaintained? 16:30:38 Cymew: darcs get 16:30:46 -!- Modius [n=Modius@99.179.100.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:30:49 p_l, dobra. tylko troche ciekawy. 16:31:07 Modius [n=Modius@99.179.100.156] has joined #lisp 16:31:28 tic: No coz, studia zagraniczne ;-) 16:32:13 p_l, computer science? 16:32:17 Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.96.159] has joined #lisp 16:32:36 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:32:48 p_l, or how did you get into Lisp? 16:32:51 tic: CS & Artificial Intelligence 16:32:58 Riastradh: apparently darcs is written in haskell, and it's not maintained at the moment in FreeBSD ports. Frankly I am a bit tired of having to install a make replacement or a new compiler to build a tool to be used to get something that I use for... you get the picture. Sometimes I which people could just use C or CL. 16:33:13 tic: been reading *old* programming books since I was small 16:33:37 Cymew, uh, why is CL any different from Haskell in this respect? 16:33:42 fe[nl]ix: I haven't gotten darcs installed yet. Thanks for the syntax help, though. 16:33:45 p_l, Polish books on Lisp? 16:34:02 tic: A scheme one, from 1990. 16:34:09 Riastradh: Eh? It is a different language? 16:34:12 tic: Plus AutoLISP 16:34:13 -!- setf [i=8f5df9d8@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f2db0a939e21f596] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:34:21 -!- x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@tmo-096-35.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:34:29 Cymew, anyway, I believe there are binary distributions of Darcs. 16:34:41 (for FreeBSD) 16:34:56 Maybe I should look at that then 16:35:03 tic: After that I found Paul Graham's essays and PCL :) 16:35:19 wget seems to be pulling down all of common-lisp.net now... 16:35:33 p_l, I haven't read his OnLisp yet despite having it at home for the longest time. Supposedly has some good macrology 16:36:05 vasa [n=vasa@mm-15-95-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 16:36:13 Why can't people just use cvs? Well. End of that. Thanks for the clx link. We'll see how I manage to get the source. 16:36:37 Cymew: I'm always wondering why people can't just use tla 16:36:46 Cymew: http://wiki.darcs.net/DarcsWiki/Binaries#head-c44889436a2c11941198a910e218c16b7831cf87 linked from the main page... 16:36:48 schme, because it's deprecated? 16:36:55 tic: Says who? 16:37:08 -!- ejs_ [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:37:28 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086155.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:37:29 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:37:29 schme: hopefully they don't notice Lispworks :) 16:37:39 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.187.231] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:37:42 (I wish we had crazy people on the radio like that; sounds great) 16:37:44 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086155.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 16:37:55 Ya it was a hillarious show. 16:38:46 tic: I haven't started with OnLisp yet, currently trying to get myself good enough to write anything serious in CL. 16:38:52 H4ns: so far so good on my hunchentoot fix! it's been well over a week with no zombie threads :) 16:39:22 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:39:29 slyrus_: very good! 16:39:39 oh wait, close to a week anyway, but, still, long enough to have seen some of those threads in the past 16:39:44 ejs_ [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 16:40:41 good timing too, considering that xach hasn't been around to tell me that my blog is down 16:40:46 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has quit [Client Quit] 16:40:46 -!- bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has quit [Client Quit] 16:40:59 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has quit [Client Quit] 16:41:09 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsly149.osnanet.de] has quit [] 16:41:35 slyrus: He told me that yesterday :P 16:41:56 Cymew: I can't find any commands. I think something like "wget -r -np " is a start. 16:42:00 slyrus_: is that how you normally find out? :) 16:42:08 yeah :) 16:42:12 me too 16:42:21 would it be a bad choice to place a (labels) inside a (dolist)? will this remake the function for every element in the list and thus make the code inefficient? 16:42:35 slyrus: Is your blog in CL? 16:43:18 *rsynnott* generally finds out when Google posts a rather unapologetic note mentioning that half of blogger has been more-or-less broken for the past week 16:44:01 sellout: of course 16:44:04 slyrus: got a WP migration script? ;) 16:44:11 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:44:21 hrm... no, I guess that would be nice though 16:44:41 sellout: nuclblog, and the git repo should hopefully stay up long enough for you to clone it :) 16:45:08 kreuter: That's the one. Thanks. 16:45:29 Seems like the errors I was getting is still around. :( 16:45:35 Is there something (I was thinking something like declare ignore) that will remove warnings about unused variables but that wont print warnings if i actually use the variables? 16:45:37 rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:45:43 auclairb: ignorable 16:46:09 kreuter: thanks 16:46:27 Time to take lunch and think this over. 16:46:28 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:48:11 slyrus_: got it, danke. 16:48:42 lemoinem [n=swoog@x-132-204-255-199.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:49:55 -!- Modius [n=Modius@99.179.100.156] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:51:16 bertskert: it would depend on the compiler, I'd guess. 16:52:20 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086155.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:52:20 -!- besiria` [n=user@ppp083212086155.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:52:43 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086155.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 16:52:45 bertskert: if the compiler can extract constants from loops, it would be ok. On the other hand, if your function is a closure it may be purposeful: (let ((r '())) (dotimes (i 10 r) (let ((i i)) (flet ((f (x) (+ x i))) (push (function f) r))))) 16:53:13 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:54:12 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:56:21 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 16:57:14 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 16:57:14 Ifur [n=ifur@ti0004a340-1134.bb.online.no] has joined #lisp 16:57:29 -!- Ifur [n=ifur@ti0004a340-1134.bb.online.no] has quit [Client Quit] 16:58:45 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 16:59:02 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:12 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [] 17:02:35 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:23 anyone know library that provides let-macro as (let (s v) ...)? 17:04:24 um, what? 17:04:33 how would that with multiple bindings 17:04:36 work 17:04:38 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 17:05:30 as if-let from alexandria 17:05:38 or when-let 17:05:39 how do I return multiple values from a function? 17:05:45 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 17:05:46 Use the VALUES function. 17:05:47 clhs values 17:05:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_values.htm 17:05:48 (values v1 ....) 17:05:52 i dont know alexandria 17:06:55 xristos=> (let ((s1 v1) (s2 v2) ...) ...) 17:07:54 that shouldn't be too hard to write 17:07:56 vasa: (let (s v) ...) already has a valid and unambiguous interpretation in ANSI CL. Trying to do something else with that syntax will just confuse people. 17:08:06 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 17:08:11 (let (s v) ...) -> (let ((s nil) (v nil)) ...) 17:09:51 chandler=> another name for that let 17:10:05 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:10:33 koning_robot=> yes, but best way to get libarry 17:10:35 -!- kiuma [i=4d5de922@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-aa84fd64ae326feb] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 17:10:36 *library 17:11:06 vasa: are you asking for a suggestion for a name for this magical function? 17:11:17 (defmacro let (&rest args) `(cl:if ,@args)) (defmacro if (&rest args) `(cl:let ,@args)) (if (less b) (let (f x) (print f))) is that clear? 17:11:24 hmmm i am asking for libarary 17:11:46 (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :novlang) 17:11:47 *library 17:11:52 Have you considered learning Common Lisp instead of inventing a different language? 17:11:53 hmm ok, thx 17:11:59 vasa: what's the point of COMMON-lisp ? 17:12:05 chandler: i thought that was what you call learning common lisp 17:12:35 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:12:37 matimago: erm, why on earth would you want to do that? 17:12:44 rsynnott: to confuse newbies? 17:12:54 to confuse EVERYONE, I would think 17:13:35 rsynnott: I don't want to do that, I want to show how silly it is to do that. Same as changing the semantics of (let (a b) ...) 17:14:12 (defun let+ (let) 17:14:12 (let ((let let)) 17:14:12 let)) 17:14:27 ewh 17:14:41 i think i'll call it identity-2 17:14:57 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:06 good aftermorn' 17:15:56 -!- ejs_ [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:16:27 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:17:39 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:18:43 strange, why this gives me a compile error on sbcl: (defmacro let+ (symbols &body body) `(let ,@(mapcar 'cons symbols) ,@body)) 17:19:07 ** and yes, I know the cons is an error 17:19:24 madnificent: cons takes two arguments, in addition to not being what you want. 17:20:34 pkhuong: yes yes, I've changed it ... but it surprised me that the compilation of that macro gave me an error 17:21:11 it works for me 17:21:33 sbcl 1.0.22 17:21:53 1.0.18 17:21:54 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:22:05 it only breaks on expansion here 17:22:17 Hun: that, is correct behavior ^_^ 17:22:48 true. 17:23:13 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE0012178905a3-CM000a735f8e51.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:23:25 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.66.158] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:24:19 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 17:25:46 yeah, that's a bug. 17:27:09 pkhuong: a known bug? 17:27:35 Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 17:28:01 pkhuong: I wonder if (and how) I should report it somewhere other than in this channel 17:29:10 You reduce your test case (in this case, to something like (lambda (x) (mapcar 'cons x))) and post it to sbcl-devel (you need to be subscribed for that part to wor) 17:29:12 Abraham [n=Abraham@243-186-112-217.dyn.adsl.belcenter.be] has joined #lisp 17:29:22 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-196-128.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:21 setf [i=54a661eb@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c59fe52140a1f0ea] has joined #lisp 17:33:54 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:35:45 pkhuong: should I add the error message I received to it? I'll send a message later today. Can you confirm that it happened to you too, and the system you work on (or doesn't that matter?) 17:35:45 -!- Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.115.207.3] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:36:24 Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-15-158.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:22 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-196-128.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:38:46 -!- ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-141-92-135.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:40:32 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.114.189.217] has joined #lisp 17:41:39 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:42:39 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-70-240-15-158.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:43:09 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@99.179.96.159] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:43:48 madnificent: yes, it happened on HEAD too. 17:43:51 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:52 -!- Abraham [n=Abraham@243-186-112-217.dyn.adsl.belcenter.be] has left #lisp 17:44:13 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-120-243.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:44:29 -!- nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:33 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:45:37 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:45:54 qbg [n=qbg@discovery.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 17:47:09 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@x-132-204-255-199.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:47:12 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086155.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:48:24 does let copy the values? (let ((x (first l))) ...) will x be a different memory area than (first l)? 17:48:29 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 17:48:51 Let just introduces bindings 17:49:30 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:49:34 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 17:49:38 bertskert: No, it does not copy. 17:49:39 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.168.94] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:50:15 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:50:17 -!- nullwork_ [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:50:22 woah. 17:51:36 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:51:55 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:54:20 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-4-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 17:54:59 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:55:02 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:35 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:57:24 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-17-133.kosnet.ru] has quit ["."] 17:57:38 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:58:13 -!- mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:58:17 mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:45 pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:00:25 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:00:50 -!- Kickaha [n=user@bl4-158-55.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:59 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0ED8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:42 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-69-154-10-183.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:57 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-120-243.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:03:44 Modius__ [n=Modius@99.179.100.239] has joined #lisp 18:06:24 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e178010250.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:06:35 rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-53-189.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:06:50 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178010250.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:06:51 -!- mega1` [n=mega@3e70ca0e.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:07:04 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:07:27 josemanuel [n=josemanu@24.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:10:10 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:35 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:39 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-13.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 18:10:41 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:11:26 lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 18:11:48 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:14:00 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 18:14:04 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:15:11 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 18:15:42 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:16:39 athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has joined #lisp 18:16:45 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@d28851-156.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:17:07 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a6f-095.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:17:57 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 18:17:59 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:19:12 ooh, weird 18:19:38 a control stack exhausted error made it through all my custom error handling stuff, but still managed to get caught by hunchentoot's 18:20:37 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:25:36 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-69-154-10-183.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Success] 18:26:17 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:26:25 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0ED8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 18:27:07 vixey [n=vicky@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:27:32 What is the time complexity of list reversal? 18:28:08 Quadrescence: guess 18:28:09 order n, I'd assume 18:28:10 Is it O(n) for length n? 18:28:13 linear 18:28:38 doesn't it depend on how much memory you're willing to use? 18:29:03 ltbarcly: stop causing trouble! 18:29:23 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:29:27 durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has joined #lisp 18:29:27 just saying 18:29:50 ltbarcly: How would one use more memory to make it speedier? 18:30:48 wouldn't you have to copy the list to reverse it? 18:31:02 oh! 18:31:05 -!- dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has left #lisp 18:31:15 dcrawford [n=dcrawfor@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:31:17 I mean, create a reversed copy 18:31:25 I don't know of an in place way to do it, but I'm not very smart 18:31:30 Ya I got it. 18:31:33 -!- ddsmith [n=ddsmith@12.6.239.179] has quit [] 18:32:09 ltbarcly: I'm not accusing you of being smart, don't worry ;) 18:32:13 ltbarcly: can you read? 18:32:19 if you were willing to traverse the list N times you could do it in place 18:32:34 clhs reverse 18:32:36 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_revers.htm 18:32:40 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 18:33:41 kreuter: yea, there is a builtin function to do it, but that doesn't say anything about how it is done 18:34:08 nreverse also works on vectors 18:34:09 ltbarcly: it's a reasonable bet that it is done in the obvious way 18:34:18 there it is trivial to do a destructive reverse 18:34:58 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o chandler 18:34:59 if you can tell me how to reverse a linked list while only traversing it once without making a copy, I'd be interested (it may be algorithms 101, I have no idea) 18:35:02 -!- chandler has set mode -b %vixey!*@* 18:35:11 -!- chandler has set mode -o chandler 18:35:18 *singly-linked-list 18:35:28 ltbarcly: you can reverse the pointers in-place to reverse a list. see the source for NREVERSE in your local CL implementation. 18:35:30 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:34 Quadrescence, O(n^2) naive O(n) revappend 18:35:42 ak70 [n=user@195.158.102.15] has joined #lisp 18:35:42 rme: reverse the pointers in place? 18:35:46 oh, I see what you mean 18:35:58 good point 18:36:18 vixey: Whoa, you're a lisper? 18:36:33 Quadrescence, This surprises you? 18:36:49 vixey: Well, I just remember you in #haskell. 18:36:50 Quadrescence: I thought it was common knowledge that vixey is just about anything cool :) 18:36:51 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:37:04 -!- qbg [n=qbg@discovery.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:37:10 schme_, heh. 18:37:11 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:37:19 vixey: You were the most helpful one to start me off in that channel, by the way. 18:37:35 So, without you, I actually wouldn't be lisping now. ;) 18:39:37 Quadrescence, (defun (naive list) (cond ((endp list) list) (t (append (naive (cdr list)) (list (car list)))))) vs (defun (revappend list acc) (cond ((endp list) acc) (t (revappend (cdr list) (cons (car list) acc))))) with (reverse list) = (revappend list nil) 18:39:50 append being O(n) you have the complexities I said above 18:40:21 the consequences of this in SBCL are cute: (compile nil '(lambda () (funcall 'cons 1))) 18:41:00 vixey: Much appreciated. 18:41:34 kreuter: the 'bug in sbcl itself' one? 18:41:46 yep 18:42:00 I think it's a bug in the hardware ;) 18:42:22 schme_: you're right. it would be easier to compile if CONS were implemented in hardware. 18:42:38 what would be a good way of splitting a string into groups of length N, please? 18:42:52 kreuter: How would one implement CONS at the hardware level? 18:43:03 ReiniUrban [n=chatzill@212-183-63-245.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has joined #lisp 18:43:05 Quadrescence: carefully? 18:43:06 Quadrescence, large enough register. 18:43:14 The whole "lisp at the hardware level" (or optimized at the hardware level) has interested me. 18:43:16 Quadrescence, SICP covrs this 18:43:27 Quadrescence, video lectures online if you want 18:43:27 vixey: Alright. 18:43:29 I was only joking. 18:43:32 Quadrescence: You might be interested in that paper on a scheme CPU. 18:43:42 schme_: I would be, yes. 18:43:51 *schme_* looks around. 18:43:53 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@24.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 18:43:58 Quadrescence, HOPL-Uncut.pdf is also interesting. Not too many details, but some overview. ("The Evolution of Lisp") 18:43:59 grkz: several calls to subseq, I think. 18:44:02 the scheme CPU mentioned in SICP? 18:44:20 kreuter: thanks 18:45:06 I was thinking about ftp://publications.ai.mit.edu/ai-publications/pdf/AIM-514.pdf 18:45:15 "Design of LISP-Based Processors or, SCHEME: A Dielectric LISP or, Finite Memories Considered Harmful or, LAMBDA: The Ultimate Opcode" 18:46:27 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 18:46:36 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:51:11 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-168-33.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:51:15 cpfr [n=cf@cpe-76-171-165-212.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:52:58 kreuter: it's not too hard to add the error checking to ir2-convert-fixed-allocations; do we expose the allocators defined via define-primitive-object for anything but cons? 18:53:32 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslab240.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:55:01 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:55:47 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@99.179.100.239] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:56:23 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-201-133.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:26 I don't believe so. 18:57:51 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslab240.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 18:58:39 clhs progn 18:58:39 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_progn.htm 18:58:44 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslab240.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:59:17 cpape`` [n=user@p5484DB7A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:08 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:13 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslab240.osnanet.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:00:26 -!- rurban [n=chatzill@212-183-53-189.adsl.highway.telekom.at] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:27 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:01:34 antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:53 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:01:57 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-69-234-118-147.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:01 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-129-201-133.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:03:49 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:30 -!- antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:05:11 er, maybe make-weak-pointer. 19:05:39 yeah, same deal. 19:06:21 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-15-95-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:07:23 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:08:46 -!- kidd [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:11:10 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.227.26] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:11:56 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:13:28 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 19:13:42 Good evening. 19:14:34 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:14:48 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:36 Ok. Glx is still acting up. I got the source from http://common-lisp.net/~crhodes/clx/ and it wont compile. It says "Compilation failed: 0 errors 1 warning " How do I even list the offending warning? 19:15:41 -!- cpape` [n=user@p5484CFA2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:16:12 you have to eyeball the transcript, basically. 19:16:47 *sigh* 19:17:08 sorry. 19:17:15 Not your fault! :) 19:17:31 it was an empathetic "sorry". 19:18:03 :) 19:19:05 "CTOR conflicts with derived type" seems to be the closest I got to a description. I wonder what that means? 19:19:18 hm 19:19:22 what version of SBCL are you using? 19:19:52 some change around 2 months ago exposed a bug there. 19:20:08 IIRC, it was fixed in early October. 19:20:10 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:20:17 1.0.21 19:20:32 *kreuter* does some arithmetic. 19:20:36 I don't know how new that is 19:20:39 yeah, that was the release with the bug. 19:20:44 with the bug exposed. 19:20:48 Is it my lucky day 19:21:05 er, yeah. 19:21:10 upgrade to 1.0.22? 19:21:21 Well, there is a newer release, so I *am* lucky! 19:21:53 erg, how do you abort a computation in the repl? >:( 19:22:03 >_< ram fillinggggg 19:22:24 C-c C-c? 19:22:28 Recursive function? ;) 19:22:46 Quadrescence: yank the power cord 19:22:52 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-220-40.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 19:23:13 *Quadrescence* sighs in half relief. 19:23:31 The RAM stopped filling, but, it's still running, and C-c C-c doesn't stop it. :< 19:23:42 kill -9 19:24:05 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:24:08 Faster pussycat, kill! kill! kill! 19:24:22 http://www.monzy.com/intro/killdashnine_lyrics.html ;) 19:24:27 vasa [n=vasa@mm-74-85-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 19:26:32 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 19:27:21 I had to kill the poor repl/slimey emacs 19:28:06 -!- durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has quit [] 19:29:18 *dcrawford* plays taps 19:30:16 -!- mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has quit [] 19:32:59 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:37:52 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-69-234-118-147.dsl.irvnca.pacbell.net] has quit [] 19:38:24 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:39:01 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 19:39:12 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:40:21 antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:41:46 antgreen2 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:42:00 -!- antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 19:42:27 -!- athos [n=philipp@92.250.204.223] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:42:51 antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:42:57 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-13.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:43:55 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:30 durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has joined #lisp 19:44:37 arquebus [n=opera@201.148.59.247] has joined #lisp 19:49:56 dfox__ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 19:49:56 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:50:06 Latest news on the clx front. sbcl 1.0.22 doesn't fix the problem. But, the error message is funnier. "Compilation failed: 0 errors 1 warning 359 notes [78.81 secs]" 19:50:27 -!- arquebus [n=opera@201.148.59.247] has left #lisp 19:50:28 Sorry wrong one 19:50:42 froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 19:50:42 Latest news on the clx front. sbcl 1.0.22 doesn't fix the problem. But, the error message is funnier. "Compilation failed: 0 errors 0 warning 306 notes [78.81 secs]" 19:50:53 zero problem, let's fail. 19:51:13 Cymew: : You can use ,load to load an asdf system and get the *SLIME Compilation-Notes* popped up which contains a listing that is browsable more conveniently 19:51:14 I think you're imagining all this. 19:51:45 you are sleeping Cymew 19:51:47 wake up! 19:52:04 No *SLIME Compilation-Notes* buffer found. 19:52:23 I guess I could upgrade slime while I'm at it... 19:53:21 I beginning to feel like the twilight zone 19:53:37 -!- dfox_ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 19:53:56 I kind of expected the compilation notes, and was surprised when none showed. 19:54:13 -!- durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has quit [] 19:54:20 -!- idurand [n=idurand@chataigne.labri.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:07 Cymew: yeah I hate that particular detail of `compile-file''s behavior 19:55:24 Mynch [i=Mynch@ns150a.studby.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 19:55:38 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:57 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:56:17 josemanuel [n=josemanu@180.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:56:49 a-s [n=user@92.80.98.132] has joined #lisp 19:57:05 clsql-postgresql has a bad type in blob code (which I never use), cffi incompatibility I guess, meaning it breaks to debugger after compiling 19:57:35 esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 19:57:54 now swank and slime are complaining about date differences. Well, maybe it will compile clx now 19:58:36 it did! 19:58:53 of course, FIND-PACKAGE can't find "CLX" but what the heck... 19:59:23 *sigh* 19:59:28 -!- antgreen2 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:00:04 I've even forgotten why I wanted to use clx at this point 20:00:09 -!- antgreen1 [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:00:52 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-772668fe7c47bcf2] has joined #lisp 20:00:52 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.240.46] has joined #lisp 20:00:57 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:01:04 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 20:01:09 Cymew: http://xkcd.com/349/ sprang to life a bit earlier :) 20:01:46 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:01:56 It's so true it's not even funny 20:02:20 -!- Wombat1 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:02:27 Wombat1 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 20:02:55 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:11 Maybe I should just cmucl with its crusty old clx. It usually work. Frankly, sbcl have a weird tendency to break randomly. I wish I was more competent so I could volunteer to fix it... :( 20:04:20 you don't want to do that. xof's clx gets all the goodies. 20:05:00 ...but if it don't work... 20:05:08 rullie [n=rullie@129-97-68-114.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 20:05:13 Maybe I should rebuild stumpwm with xof's clx, doesn't work w/ my keymap here. 20:05:40 I haven't managed to make it work at all, using clisp on that one. 20:05:40 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:05:43 works for me. I'm even compiling sbcl 1.0.22.painful to prove it 20:06:27 although I'm generally adverse to upgrading sbcl, since the changes are seldom of interest unless you batch six months of them together 20:06:40 -!- rullie [n=rullie@129-97-68-114.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 20:07:10 -!- cpfr [n=cf@cpe-76-171-165-212.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:07:15 I usually don't upgrade of my own, I usually do it when someone here tells me to! ;) 20:08:12 rullie [n=rullie@129-97-68-114.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 20:08:46 cpfr [n=cf@dynamic-134-098.usc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:10:03 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit ["Leaving..."] 20:11:46 durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has joined #lisp 20:16:07 hefner: what version do you currently use? 20:17:03 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-168-33.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 20:17:11 hefner: ah, but then things stand a better chance of breaking in interesting ways when you DO update! 20:17:31 I'm using 1.0.17.39, apparently. I swore it said 1.0.19.? just a minute ago. 20:17:37 (on my last update, from .12 to .20, I discovered that symlink handling had changed a bit, horribly breaking my webapp) 20:17:44 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:17:54 ah, well, that's what you get for using pathnames. 20:18:12 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:18:28 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:18:35 indeed 20:19:54 I can't believe my clx was this out of date. I think darcs just shat all over it with random conflicts to add a few minutes entertainment to the afternoon. 20:19:55 hefner: wasn't that kreuter's punch line ? 20:20:58 fe[nl]ix: I couldn't say. 20:21:20 am I stealing material, or rehashing my own? 20:21:58 rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has joined #lisp 20:21:59 -!- Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:46 *hefner* does not understand why darcs decided to regurgitate little bits of code at every place he's ever submitted a clx patch, inserting random conflicts in its quirky notation 20:27:06 *rsynnott* fears darcs 20:27:15 weird bloody thing 20:27:46 I don't trust any of these new fangled version control systems 20:27:52 hefner: unaware amending at either side can lead to that 20:28:21 probably because you sent me actual diffs and I merged them 20:28:38 or something silly like that 20:28:39 ah, can see how that could go wrong :) 20:28:51 sorry 20:28:59 think of it as your reward for contributing 20:29:14 okay, but I'm certain I've pulled before, at least once between each patch, but I'm seeing really old stuff in here. 20:29:26 hefner: I know I updated recently my sbcl to get some improved compile-time arg checking goodies 20:29:28 *hefner* gives up, rm -rf's 20:29:47 -!- Wombat1 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:30:58 and at THIS point, you will find there was a local change you hadn't sent anyone :) 20:31:10 funny, clx doesn't create any package but there are suddenly symbols called Xlib:FOO on my *other* computer when I load the clx I managed to compile there... 20:31:58 Krystof: should I send darcs patches in the future? 20:33:34 Wombat1 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:07 f 20:35:09 oops 20:35:16 Hm? Running stuff from my other computer it seems like I can get clx to work. Why on earth do the demo intern e.g. "just-say-lisp" in the XLIB package? Why not CLX-DEMO!??! 20:35:29 *kreuter* needs a focus-follows-pupil wm. 20:37:13 Something is broken with the way clx does packages. 20:37:21 Cymew: not really. 20:37:29 hefner: I think so 20:37:45 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@180.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 20:38:00 oh, cool, my shiny new sbcl died in ldb at make-target-2.sh (no doubt my own fault). 20:38:52 *hefner* remembers fondly the days of the occasional test of mcclim on sbcl, building new versions of everything, fighting with paths and asdf, cursing profusely for two hours 20:38:56 sblom [n=sblom@67.51.64.18] has joined #lisp 20:39:25 hefner: eh? 20:39:32 kreuter: it's very anti-intuitive. Every other library I've experienced create a package with the same name as the FOO.asd file and a FOO-DEMO for demos. It pollutes the package name space to include demos in the main package. (and a package name that has nothing to do with the naming scheme used for the source) I would say it is if not broken at least very odd. 20:40:29 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.98.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:40:57 okay. build yourself a time machine, go back to 1986, and tell the folks at MIT that one day people will be mad that they called the CL X library's package XLIB. 20:41:10 hefner: been there, done that. Oddly enough mcclim compiled fine last time I tried it! ;) 20:41:19 <_3b> looks like defining a class might be the best way to do conses in avm2 20:41:42 But what has MIT to do with it? 20:41:56 MIT didn't write the clx code, did they? 20:42:02 the XLIB package has been called XLIB since forever. 20:42:17 <_3b> guess i should try writing some tests in AS3 and see how much accurate type info matters 20:42:56 ok, I can agree the continuity with the C xlib makes sense, but having the demo in the same package is that also inherited from MIT? 20:44:00 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 20:44:12 there are vastly less insignificant things to get worked up about than whether a handful of demos have their names interned in the wrong package. 20:44:39 I'm not worked up. Believe me: ) 20:45:15 I'm just analyzing why it startled me and if that was because it could be done differently 20:45:40 it could be done differently, but it isn't. 20:46:35 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:46:36 Are you the maintainer? Would you care for a patch that rearranged stuff? I know very little of asdf, but I could try to make it make sense. 20:46:44 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:46:45 I'm not. 20:46:49 ok 20:47:19 You just disagree if it's weird. Fair enough. 20:47:29 arey there many real world apps using clim or clx? 20:48:00 -!- durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has quit [] 20:48:07 everything that uses X must use clx, don't they? I don't know how common that is, though. 20:48:10 rsynnott: what's the real world? I used to babysit a web 0.9 clim application. 20:48:23 -!- ak70 [n=user@195.158.102.15] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:38 it had something to do with biochemical pathways. 20:48:57 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 20:49:18 lol @ web 0.9 <--- any definition? :) 20:49:33 <_3b> Cymew: you can use X through FFI in addition to the all lisp CLX lib 20:50:04 p_l: google for "cwest". 20:52:11 kreuter: nice thing 20:52:18 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:58:15 _3b: true, but that would still mean that everything that uses X for a GUI would need CLX functionality someway or other. 20:58:25 Right? 20:58:35 nope 20:59:00 some programs talk to widget sets (e.g. LTK) and don't deal directly with X. 20:59:29 jajcloz [n=jaj@209.6.216.149] has joined #lisp 20:59:39 defeatist kludges 20:59:53 <_3b> SDL, glfw, glut, etc apps also tend to not talk to X directly 21:00:20 hefner: what was it that got you into ldb? 21:00:24 <_3b> and if it wasn't clear, i mean you could use FFI instead of CLX 21:00:29 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4f1f.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:00:50 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:32 kreuter: no, it was probably my attempt at acting on some random trivial todo in the source, then accidentally deleting part of it while flushing out modified files with other stupidities that i knew would conflict when I updated 21:05:49 oh 21:06:53 I'm pretty sure the lisp of the future will make a better effort to bring calls to undefined functions to the programmer's attention 21:09:46 and then users will ask about how to have it not do that on Tuesdays, Thursdays, and alternate Fridays. 21:10:03 they'll always be asking something anyway 21:10:11 _3b: got that 21:10:14 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:12:49 -!- jgracin 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[n=wasabi@ntoska144121.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:26:16 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:30:43 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 21:36:26 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:38:25 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:39:02 xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:40:40 . 21:42:17 <_3b> hmm, now i'm confused... tried porting my cons benchmark to as3, and it is slower :/ 21:43:59 *hefner* resents every time he's forced to update slime as a consequence of updating sbcl 21:44:08 <_3b> similar relative timings for class vs 2element array vs anonymous class though 21:46:06 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:32 -!- bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-174-7.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 21:47:30 -!- xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.11/0000000000]"] 21:47:59 xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:48:25 mimmomik [n=privesta@83.225.180.18] has joined #lisp 21:48:26 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-19-206.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:48:30 Kickaha [n=user@122.11.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 21:48:33 hello 21:49:03 mimmomik, I stubbed my toe 21:49:23 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless57.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:51:20 -!- mimmomik [n=privesta@83.225.180.18] has quit ["—I-n-v-i-s-i-o-n— 2.0 Build 3515"] 21:51:21 -!- xvc [n=chatzill@82-69-45-88.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 21:51:41 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:54:30 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:45 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 21:58:04 -!- setf [i=54a661eb@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c59fe52140a1f0ea] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:59:04 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:00:39 willb [n=wibenton@wireless57.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 22:00:50 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:02:40 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:24 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:25 gloaming [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:58 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-1-13.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:06:31 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 22:06:53 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:08:44 lispm [n=joswig@e177123057.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:08:55 elurin [n=user@85.99.168.94] has joined #lisp 22:09:20 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 22:12:23 -!- kefka-the-great [n=user@ec2-67-202-38-234.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:29 -!- Kickaha [n=user@122.11.108.93.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:17:48 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:18:26 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:26:00 what happens when a thread calls condition-notify on a waitqueue that no other thread is condition-waiting on yet? is the notification dropped, or remembered until a thread calls condition-wait? (using sbcl by the way) 22:26:12 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 22:28:12 mtrimpe [n=mtrimpe@d107110.upc-d.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 22:30:08 -!- phao [n=phao@20158133097.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:31:33 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:33:52 -!- gloaming [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:35:44 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-74-85-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:37:26 kidd [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:39:05 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 22:43:33 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 22:43:37 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:44:11 Abraham [n=Abraham@243-186-112-217.dyn.adsl.belcenter.be] has joined #lisp 22:47:32 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a6f-095.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:47:36 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:51:52 -!- msingh [n=user@203.171.123.8.dynamic.rev.aanet.com.au] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:53:09 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:53:11 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:53:21 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:59:26 -!- Abraham [n=Abraham@243-186-112-217.dyn.adsl.belcenter.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:00:04 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a6f-095.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:04:59 <_3b> what does (time (let ((x nil)) (dotimes (a 10000000 nil) (push 1 x)))) do to SBCL's GC that makes it take longer every run? 23:05:12 <_3b> (or is there some obvious borkenness in it i missed) 23:06:16 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.240.46] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:07:37 how long is x? 23:08:17 lispm: you're reading it wrong 23:08:20 <_3b> starts as NIL unless i missed a paren somewhere 23:08:30 and later? 23:08:56 <_3b> should be 10000000 when it finishes 23:09:00 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 23:09:01 _3b: SBCL's GC degrades under very heavy allocation. 23:09:07 -!- rpg [n=rpg@fw.henn.dunn.pcspeed.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:09:30 <_3b> kreuter: why does it stay degraded between runs though? 23:09:45 tcr: i was not sure what he was really doing 23:10:03 _3b: I can hazard a couple guesses 23:10:17 <_3b> lispm: goal is just benchmarking CONS speed/space usage 23:10:19 if any cons in that long chain gets preserved conservatively, all the remaining ones will too 23:10:20 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:10:50 hmpf 23:10:58 <_3b> jsnell: ah, that could be it 23:11:10 -!- lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:11:32 <_3b> heh, guess i won't worry about my flash stuff... took 351sec to run on clisp :/ 23:11:34 there can also be page table fragmentation issues over time. 23:12:46 I think you should find that the times level off asymptotically. 23:14:10 you might also find heap exhaustion due to bogosity in the allocator. 23:14:24 what is the chance that one of the conses gets preserved? 23:14:34 anyone knows of a trick for user-space swapping in any of the CL implementations? I'm looking for a way to use that in CMUCL, SBCL or ECL (or maybe CLISP, if it will work fast enough) 23:16:29 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:16:51 I can think of a way to somehow make it work on ECL by modifying Boehm GC, but what about others? 23:16:58 lispm: if any of those conses get tenured up to some high generation during one run, the tail of the list starting at that cons will be kept around until that generation gets GC'd again. 23:17:08 and now I'm late. 23:17:11 so long, #lisp. 23:17:52 If next time come people asking about A*, that's likely homework. (judging from the most recent c.l.l. posting, and remembering quite some "homework" people comming from .pt lately.) 23:18:11 if in next time people come asking ... 23:19:11 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:22:31 mib_zww10yse [i=cda9c342@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-23ab7346a156b59e] has joined #lisp 23:23:33 -!- mib_zww10yse [i=cda9c342@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-23ab7346a156b59e] has left #lisp 23:27:32 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-772668fe7c47bcf2] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 23:28:40 ferada [n=ferada@f054012207.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:33:08 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:35:04 userspace swapping would be interesting in order to run CL-based websites on systems with low memory constraints (80 MB is usually consider hard to fit in for example with ruby) 23:37:04 ivanst [i=ivans@93-138-57-231.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:37:16 that almost makes me want to set up a web server on a lispm with 16 or 24 MB of memory 23:37:26 -!- kidd [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 23:37:58 macivory 2 is really too slow, though. 23:40:40 kami-`` [n=user@p4FD38A61.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:40:46 use a 3640 23:40:47 kami-```` [n=user@p4FD38A61.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:41:01 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 23:41:13 I'd like to have one of those (or a 3650) around. I like the form factor. 23:41:24 Kickaha [n=jadawin@66.105.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:41:37 ever seen one? 23:41:41 -!- Kickaha [n=jadawin@66.105.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Client Quit] 23:42:04 yeah, bunches, in dave schmidt's garage. never seen one running though. 23:42:24 Kickaha [n=jadawin@66.105.103.87.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 23:42:35 kind of large, loud and draws massive amounts of electricity 23:42:55 sounds like fun! 23:43:00 the next generation was a bit smaller 23:43:25 hefner, if that is fun, then you need a 3670 ;-) 23:43:44 you can live in there 23:44:18 they had a 3670 along with a 3670 up at the retrocomputing society of rhode island. they were retired from thinking machines, the 3670 had a connection machine interface board in it. the 3670 still ran and booted into genera; I forget why we couldn't get the 3650 going. 23:44:38 yonatan [n=yonatan@89.139.26.111] has joined #lisp 23:44:45 a 3650 and a 3670, rather 23:44:47 I think I once loaded the cl-http web server into the 3640, took some time 23:44:57 but works 23:45:17 I'd like to get the connection machine 23:46:47 *_3b* wants to pretend a graphics card is a connection machine 23:46:50 that would be wild. the two most awesome computers ever, reunited. 23:47:49 hmmm... making a L4 style message passing kernel that would run Lisp on BG/L? 23:48:10 there are two other combinations that are similar wild 23:48:20 lispm: what are those? 23:48:30 symbolics + pixar image processor 23:48:42 phao [n=phao@20158133097.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 23:48:49 once sold by symbolics 23:48:59 the other one 23:49:02 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless57.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:49:11 is a xl1200 with the FrameThrower board 23:49:33 ah, yes. a machine which needs some graphics demos written on it. 23:50:46 I read that there was also code to use the Framethrower as a 3d card 23:50:55 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:59 similar to the SGI boards 23:51:07 -!- NoorDextor is now known as JewDextor 23:51:19 -!- rullie [n=rullie@129-97-68-114.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:53:44 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 23:55:13 as for my question: It's easier and easier to find a cheap hosting capable of running your own software, provided you keep yourself into for example 80 MB of RAM 23:56:09 -!- phao [n=phao@20158133097.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:56:24 that's pretty damn small for today's memory prices methinks 23:56:39 tcr: for $5.5 per month? ;P 23:56:44 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:57:10 -!- kami-` [n=user@p4FD388EF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:57:11 -!- durka [n=durka@130.58.197.83] has quit [] 23:58:26 the thing is, it can be used "small" at the beginning, so you can build up some web-app or other thing slowly and when it starts generating revenue, you pay for more (automatically added without any restarts or anything) 23:59:08 -!- JewDextor is now known as NoorDextor 23:59:41 p_l sometimes its not so clearcut 23:59:52 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."]