00:00:08 duaneb: http://vintage-digital.com/wtf/lisp-in-a-box.jpg 00:00:15 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:01:10 hahaah 00:01:27 finally, it gets a laugh. now I can die in peace. 00:02:09 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 00:02:51 wait, is allegro common lisp free? 00:03:03 nope 00:03:08 there's a limited free version though 00:03:23 limited? 00:03:54 how is it limited? 00:04:21 unusable for serious work 00:04:50 haha 00:04:55 they limited the heap?! 00:04:56 small heap max 00:05:04 and probably various other things 00:05:51 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:06:03 I wonder how they enforced this, though 00:06:42 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 00:06:59 does the free version allow calls to other code? 00:07:03 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-56-127.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:07:30 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:09:17 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:09:59 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 00:11:31 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 00:19:52 gloaming [n=steve@c-68-35-128-231.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:06 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-001-107.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:22:29 rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:14 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-061-065.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:24:15 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:27:21 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-204-153-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 00:28:06 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:29:15 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 00:29:35 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:31:36 flavioc [n=flaviocr@217.129.160.175] has joined #lisp 00:31:37 allegro cl is nice. if you think you will have the money to spend on it in the future, it's better to start learning it now. 00:32:56 fusss: what about it makes it nicer than, say, sbcl? 00:33:00 (i've never used it) 00:33:04 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C256.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:33:07 I did quite like the lispworks trial 00:33:24 (even vaguely considered getting it during its half-price perios) 00:33:46 i have it and rarely use it because it takes me time to get a feel for the compiler messages to get into the "zone" with a new environment 00:34:28 rsynnott: i'm a freelancer, and clients always tell me to give them something they can find paid support for. Franz has been around long enough for me to count on them being around another 5- 7 years. 00:34:55 so has harlequin, surely? 00:35:50 Golden Hill still supports their CL, even if it no longer maintains and updates it. So vendor longevity is not exactly easy to predict. 00:35:54 Well, in case of deployment, lispworks and allegro do have certain advantages over most other lisps, at least so I hear 00:36:31 what is 'vop' 00:36:36 lispworks also has that nice capi thing 00:36:37 in regards to sbcl 00:36:38 isn't even Genera still supported? 00:36:45 (common GUI stiff for the three big platforms) 00:36:52 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:36:53 duaneb: where is it saying 'vop'? 00:36:56 duaneb: some abstraction over assembly? 00:37:08 http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/VOP 00:37:18 yep, just found that :P 00:38:38 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:05 Common GUI stuff for the three platforms <-- Franz and LW both have CLIM :-P 00:40:56 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:41:16 fusss: I'm not a fan :) 00:41:42 *p_l* neither 00:42:15 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 00:42:24 Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:42:44 are you allowed to say that aloud? i converted an old texas oil well to an "expression pot", into which i speak my opinions of CLIM, late at night. 00:43:02 I kindof remember that pkhuong implemented a pattern-maching library/macro a while ago... is this the library you would recommend or is there anything more convinient ? 00:43:50 crap, what was that alternative and customizable reader? 00:44:37 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 00:46:15 Ginei_Morioka [i=irssi_lo@78.112.62.102] has joined #lisp 00:47:56 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:41 fusss: You mentioned that you are working as a freelancer. How do you get your clients so you can sell stuff based on lisp, not on anything else? <-- I know it's a stupid question, but I'm kind of interested 00:51:37 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:51:47 p_l: you can ask me in a private msg :-) 00:51:59 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 00:52:11 *p_l* forgot too much about IRC ^^; 01:00:53 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 01:03:14 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 01:07:32 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:07:44 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 01:11:47 -!- mattrepl- [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 01:12:46 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:12:54 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:13:54 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 01:14:23 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:15:54 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 01:17:24 is there an #sbcl channel somewhere, or might as well be it here? 01:17:48 duaneb: this is pretty much #sbcl 01:22:43 ok 01:22:51 how recent is http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/Garbage%20Collection ? 01:23:00 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 01:23:01 or even better, how relevant is it? 01:23:55 -!- pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:25:47 -!- drwhen [n=drwho@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has quit ["”\(^?^)” LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL! "\(^?^)""] 01:27:40 Kopophex [n=kopophex@dtp-1.dyn.cs.washington.edu] has joined #lisp 01:28:04 enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has joined #lisp 01:30:38 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:30:50 b4 [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:34:12 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-45-85.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:35:57 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36:13 -!- Zhivago [n=Zhivago@203.222.167.145] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:30 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36:40 duaneb: are you trying to hack the sbcl sources? 01:36:53 fusss: I'm considering it 01:37:22 then you need to join the sbcl developer's mailing list, found on gmane, and, of course, read the archives 01:38:21 ok 01:40:12 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:46:15 ths_ [n=ths@X50e0.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:46:34 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["system is switching to runlevel --away--..."] 01:48:15 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:48:42 mav [n=mav@pool-68-162-129-29.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:03 implement lisp in forth 01:49:05 lol 01:50:47 -!- duaneb [i=45cd3b57@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3a95a7beaf804c99] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 01:53:49 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:17 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:54:43 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:54:54 -!- flavioc [n=flaviocr@217.129.160.175] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:54:55 the_unmaker: why would that be funny? Tamarin uses forth for IR 01:55:03 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 01:55:49 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:55:53 ir? 01:56:03 forth and lisp intrigue me 01:56:19 Id love for people to post some examples where ruby n python get thier butts kicked 01:56:23 perl too 01:56:33 their buts kicked how? 01:57:47 -!- ths [n=ths@X5e0c.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:00:07 *fusss* hopes bloggers would stop "teaching" algorithms. just refer to the literature please! 02:00:09 -!- Modius_ is now known as Modius 02:00:12 the_unmaker: interesting. I did that with Haskell against my friend :) 02:00:22 with fibonacci sequence 02:06:45 wow, I would never had guessed what "ahead of time compiler". People must have been in th java/.net cocoon far too long to come up with those names. 02:08:06 Id liek to see some web performance thing using haskell beat perl 02:08:09 n stuff 02:09:09 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 02:10:35 -!- hrr4 [n=hrr4@80.78.22.172] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:10:49 too bad pcl uses propietry lisp in his book like allegro server 02:10:58 that kinda smells bad to me 02:11:06 I liek bsd licensed software 02:12:30 allegro server is not proprietary 02:13:41 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 02:13:47 it's pretty funny how you can work on an almost done program, trash 300 lines of code and replace them with 200 lines that are better written and more robust, then the day after, trash those 200 and their interface to another part of the code and replace... and so on 02:14:06 I think I need to plan better 02:14:44 stassats`: i don't think the_unmaker means any of what he says. 02:14:59 qebab: no, I think that's good. 02:15:03 fusss: yes, he looks like a troll 02:15:14 sellout: how so? 02:15:41 it would be pretty cool to just get things right from the start for a change :) 02:15:45 rewriting is a part of planning, just not on paper 02:15:54 well, that's true 02:16:00 qebab: it's not the program that's changing, it's the programmer. you're understanding the problem better, or getting better with the language, or both. 02:16:24 doesn't sound so bad when you put it that way 02:17:09 quick question by the way, how often do you guys use CLOS in your programs? 02:17:27 qebab: pretty much always. 02:17:42 (just speaking for myself) 02:18:22 I find that I use it in pretty many programs, but I mostly just use it as glorified containers and I feel I might be missing out 02:19:26 oh well, it has been a long day with many happy hours of hacking :) good night 02:20:23 forget everything you know about "CLOS" and just use Lisp's classes, generic functions, conditions, printing system, etc. 02:21:32 I think the best thing is generic methods. The funny thing is that I started to understand CLOS after spending some time with haskell 02:21:40 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:23:38 which part of haskell resembles clos? 02:26:55 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:28:26 the fun parts! 02:31:10 qebab: even if I don't use classes, I use generics for pretty much everything. 02:31:27 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:32:16 stassats`: multiple dispatch 02:32:57 Since I met it, I never want to go back to single-dispatch. Unfortunately, my assignments are in Java 02:35:07 haskell has multiple dispatch? 02:35:41 pkhuong: That's basically the only way to program in it 02:36:03 As all basic functions are built upon it 02:36:07 p_l: you're confused. Pattern matching is *not* multiple dispatch, since multiple dispatch implies late binding. 02:36:39 the fancier versions of haskell type classes could perhaps be compared to CLOS 02:37:01 You might want to read on the Expression Problem to see how one can contrast pattern matching, multiple dispatch and single dispatch. 02:37:08 pkhuong: Well, in haskell's case it's similar enough. And I don't know the exact implementation details, but there's some work on late binding 02:38:05 From writing side, it's similar enough to help one in the switch from Modula (Or was it Simula?) style OOP 02:38:41 I have to say, I'm utterly amazed that there's not a prototype-based CLOS library. I know I've mentioned it here before, but I can't help but wonder if there's some horrible reason why it hasn't been done. 02:39:36 or heck... I didn't have a good enough idea of why I wanted prototypes instead of the standard class stuff before, but it's pretty clear now, I think. 02:40:30 hjpark [n=user@221.138.197.236] has joined #lisp 02:41:40 there's two things that I would really like to have that the class-based system doesn't: 1. dynamic adding/removing of class slots, 2. inheritance of slot *values* down the object tree (with optional overriding by descendants) 02:42:34 sykopomp: the first one is doable in at least some of the languages (Python and Ruby from the "popular" side) 02:42:59 p_l: I know I can add/remove slots in ruby, yes. 02:43:03 I don't know enough of CL to know if it's even possible 02:43:10 but I guess it is... 02:43:17 there's the MOP, yes. 02:43:30 sykopomp: Well, in Python, objects are essentially dicts 02:43:30 hash tables for everyone! 02:43:42 with few pre-defined slot names 02:43:52 hefner: that's definitely an option, yes. 02:44:17 I've never used prototypes. I'm curious what the appeal is. 02:44:49 I mean, I could easily define a slot in a regular class that holds a hash table, but I couldn't inherit individual things in that hash table down the tree 02:45:26 hefner: well, my case is pretty specific, but I can't foresee doing it any other way: Dynamically defining and building a bunch of game objects where flexibility is extremely important. 02:46:05 and being able to add a property to a parent object and having it cascade all the way down to the children (without actually giving it to the children) 02:46:33 just chain them together and search through them 02:46:52 I could implement this outside of CLOS, yes. 02:47:07 sykopomp: about (1): just redefine the class, and write a method on update-instances-for-redefined-class to update your instances 02:48:10 oudeis: hmmm... that might also help solve (2), I'm not sure. 02:48:29 I haven't really done any metaprogramming stuff before :-\ 02:48:39 sykopomp: games are interesting since they try to model and simulate real(-ish) world things, but can you give a concrete example of a property your objects would have that you need this for? 02:49:12 hefner: let's say I have a parent object: generic-human, and a bunch of children (and some of those might have their own children) 02:49:51 now, ideally, generic-human is the go-to guy for knowing what the things in common are, even if the children might be able to add slots, override slots, etc. You have a certain set of things you can expect. 02:50:16 so let's say I want to... add a tentacle to every single human's head, with a full description, and some methods attached to the new 'feature' 02:51:13 with the class-based system, I would have to redefine the parent class, which adds the slot, and then add the data to each child, one by one. 02:51:46 although it's possible that oudeis' u-i-f-r-c solution might make that point moot. Hm. 02:51:52 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 02:51:54 you redefine the class and a tentacle suddenly springs out of the head of every human instance? 02:52:04 that's what I would hope to have, yes. 02:52:19 since they would all refer to the parent object 02:52:25 sykopomp: update-instance-for-different-class 02:52:38 well, htere's another thing. 02:53:13 what if I don't want to redefine the class, but want to change what the value for that parent slot is, and have -that- be available as the value for the new slot? 02:53:41 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a6a-191.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:53:47 i.e.-the tentacle is now 'a purple tentacle', and I want all children to have 'a purple tentacle' in the :tentacle slot, instead of 'a plain tentacle' 02:54:11 crod [n=cmell@cb8a9b-080.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:55:27 just loop over your objects and setf the slot 02:56:03 that's a possibility, yes, but I don't find that as clean as having one value that the children can just look to 02:56:57 if _all_ the objects will hold the same value in that slot, there is no point in keeping it in a slot in the first place 02:57:14 couldn't you make the tentacle slot in generic-human be :allocation :class? 02:58:09 oudeis: just humans, in this particular chain of objects 02:58:35 what's a 'chain' of objects? 02:59:01 a list, typically :) 02:59:15 oudeis: I mean a tree. I'm just talking about the generic-human sub-tree. There can be another sub-tree that defines items, etc. 02:59:44 sub-tree in a class hierarchy? 02:59:44 -!- seangrove [n=sgrove@adsl-76-238-251-5.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:00:06 I mean, I would also like to not have to write one class per object, since that's what it would take for me to be able to add/remove slots from children 03:00:12 oudeis: yes. 03:00:29 sykopomp: are you mostly interested in the slot inheritance aspect of prototypes, or also behaviour? 03:00:50 pkhuong: you mean methods, or something else? 03:01:03 if everyone has a green tentacle, and I cut my tentacle off, then you redefine everyone to have a purple tentacle, do I now have a purple tentacle, or no tentacle at all? 03:01:53 methods (or maybe you only need single dispatch for prototypeful objects?). 03:02:36 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:03:00 I think double dispatch is still useful for prototypes 03:03:25 you can have different cases and still want the method to dispatch differently on the -other- arguments. 03:04:15 hefner: I think, right now, that I would prefer to prevent removal at the child-level of slots. Definitely setting them to some default value (nil), but they should stay there if they are defined by the parent object. 03:04:33 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 03:04:53 sykopomp: then you're in for a long ride. Multiple dispatch and prototypes is complex, especially if you're interested in performance (and not just speed, not hanging on to dead prototypes is also an issue) 03:05:03 so, you wouldn't so much cut off your tentacle, as you would simply reset you tentacle slot to hold nothing, which would be considered an override, and thus not be affected by the redefinition 03:05:39 pkhuong: it sure sounds like it, but I don't think I could do without them, to be honest. 03:06:03 pkhuong: do you think this is a matter of mop magic, or should I scrap CLOS altogether and build the system up from scratch? 03:06:16 I have no idea. 03:06:36 hm 03:07:01 tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has joined #lisp 03:09:50 sykopomp: it seems to me like this defaulting behavior can be implemented as part of the slot readers in various ways (like an :around method that checks whether the slot is bound, returning the value if so, or calling the next method, and primary methods which supply the inherited default value) 03:10:48 then you don't need to do any clos magic to make it work, so long as you don't mind setting this up yourself for each slot accessor 03:11:21 hmmmmm 03:11:29 hmm, though. there's a potential issue with identity there, though (every human in the world ends up sharing the same tentacle?). 03:12:01 oh 03:12:03 hah 03:12:28 hefner: re identity, that's what prototypes would do anyway. Still, sykopomp was also interested in prototype inheritance of methods. 03:13:05 you're right, actually, this defaulting behavior is probably best implemented by updating slots during redefinition 03:13:48 I mean, I've looked into it a wee bit 03:13:52 http://www.foldr.org/~michaelw/lisp/amop-programmatic-class.lisp I ran into stuff like this 03:14:58 I don't know, I like my way, if you change the default value to create a new tentacle and memoize it per-owner. My old default green tentacle would stick around and never get GCed without using a weak reference, but that's no big deal. 03:15:47 pkhuong: I think if I have a class-backed prototype system, I might be able to fudge my way into being able to use CLOS' method dispatch with few changes if any. 03:16:08 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:16:09 pkhuong: I have no idea about the methods questions, so I stick to the simpler one 03:16:13 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 03:16:27 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:16:30 hefner: I only understand enough to steer clear ;) 03:17:41 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 03:19:24 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 03:19:39 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:05 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:21:31 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:42 -!- ferada [n=ferada@f054012017.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["leaving"] 03:23:32 rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:25:47 something [n=afeng@c-68-46-48-132.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:16 -!- tmi [n=user@213.151.151.8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:28:47 is there an easy way to convert a list of items into individual arguments into a function? for example if I have (defun (x y z) ...), and I have a list (1 2 3). I want 1 -> x, 2 -> y, 3 -> z. almost like pattern matching by position. 03:29:31 clhs apply 03:29:31 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 03:29:45 also, sometimes, destructuring-bind 03:30:04 cool, thanks guys 03:31:58 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:32:06 phao [n=phao@20158141180.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 03:35:46 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:35:47 -!- b4 [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:35:47 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:36:59 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 03:37:00 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:22 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 03:49:52 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:51:24 Does anyone have a good mnemonic for remembering the difference between FORCE-OUTPUT and FINISH-OUTPUT? 03:52:23 -!- dabd [n=dabd@213.22.160.244] has quit [Client Quit] 03:56:49 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:49 yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has joined #lisp 03:59:13 -!- hjpark [n=user@221.138.197.236] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:00:21 stassats [n=stassats@ppp91-122-109-96.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 04:05:46 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.72.241] has joined #lisp 04:06:31 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.234.145] has joined #lisp 04:06:31 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:07:07 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:08:01 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:35 drwhen [n=who@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 04:11:15 -!- pwned [n=epitaph@78.176.99.185] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:11:22 pwned_ [n=epitaph@78.176.99.185] has joined #lisp 04:12:06 -!- pwned_ is now known as pwned 04:12:31 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 04:18:01 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:18:21 -!- Kopophex [n=kopophex@dtp-1.dyn.cs.washington.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:19:41 froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 04:27:26 photon2 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 04:27:48 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:28:36 froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 04:30:34 -!- froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:31:04 froog____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 04:34:39 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.254.97] has joined #lisp 04:35:00 force-out evicts data, finish-output evicts data and drive them to their FINAL destination (gotta get that MFA art school owes me!) 04:35:51 -!- froog____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:37:38 *fusss* realize he has been disconnected for about 40 mins and whatever he was responding to is by now a faint memory 04:37:57 froog____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 04:38:12 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:38:20 there was no activity between the question and your answer :) 04:38:23 afk 04:41:47 oh 04:42:30 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:45:00 *sykopomp* didn't discover POSITION until now 04:45:54 -!- froog____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:46:34 -!- froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:47:54 froog____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 04:49:11 -!- froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:51:40 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:54:08 finish 04:54:12 er, sorry. 04:54:37 fusss: nice. I might actually be able to remember that. 04:59:46 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:00:50 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.29] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:04:56 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A09A8.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:05:49 benny [n=benny@i577A072A.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:06:53 -!- something [n=afeng@c-68-46-48-132.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:09:50 Good morning. 05:10:18 morning beach 05:11:35 mornin' beach! 05:11:40 (it's a ritual by now) 05:11:56 heh, yes, I suppose so. 05:12:51 bah! I was supposed to be reading the Orbit paper, not Rabbit :-S grrrr 05:13:16 That's a very good paper (The Orbit paper). 05:14:20 rabbit, the scheme compiler? 05:14:24 yeah 05:14:49 I'm skimming AMOP on google. Wow. 05:14:54 i made a note saying "read orbit paper", but i have been churning through rabbit's instead (brain barf) 05:15:07 and what is the orbit paper? 05:15:23 The successor of Rabbit, sort of. 05:15:44 Morning beach. 05:15:59 ok, found it 05:16:04 "three implementations of scheme", now THAT was a classic 05:17:33 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:18:45 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1F8E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:19:41 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1F739.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:22 uchitoru [n=user@85.139.117.150] has joined #lisp 05:29:24 bulllp [n=user@159.226.43.59] has joined #lisp 05:29:48 -!- bulllp [n=user@159.226.43.59] has left #lisp 05:34:13 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:36 *sykopomp* orders an actual copy of AMOP. 05:39:57 -!- happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.234.145] has quit ["He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the aby] 05:46:12 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["leaving"] 05:46:25  g'day 05:46:27 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:46:34 good day schme_ 05:46:40 Hello there fusss 05:46:52 do any of the common lisp use CPS as IR? 05:47:01 any of the common lisps rather 05:47:08 IR? 05:47:08 IR ? 05:47:16 SBCL/CMUCL use a continuation-oriented IR1. 05:47:54 Intermediate Representation 05:48:21 (which still features ~jumps and call/return) 05:48:26 explicit code and data flow graph with some interesting theoritical properties 05:48:50 pkhuong: good too know, thanks 05:49:42 even just local CPS has some interesting properties re easy normalisation & analyses. OTOH, so does SSA, and it's probably even better studied. 05:50:08 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [No route to host] 05:51:01 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 05:51:06 the results of CPS and SSA are equivalent, right? 05:51:26 yes, SSA == CPS 05:51:47 stassats: there are interesting theoretical results showing how to move from one representation to the other, or how to translate analyses from one rep to the other. 05:51:59 see Appel's "SSA is functional" paper 05:53:10 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:58:13 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46F41.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:15 pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 05:59:28 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:02:52 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:25 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-122.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:12:16 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a9b-080.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:14:20 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a9b-080.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:14:44 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E43A49.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:15:39 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:16:42 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:19:13 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 06:25:09 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:34:02 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:34:06 uchi [n=user@85.139.117.150] has joined #lisp 06:34:09 -!- uchi [n=user@85.139.117.150] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:37:02 -!- mav [n=mav@pool-68-162-129-29.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:37:09 mav [n=mav@pool-68-162-129-29.pitbpa.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 06:38:48 hrr4 [n=hrr4@80.78.22.172] has joined #lisp 06:41:47 in the future, people people will excavate our USB disks and marvel at the complex software we have built just to be able to use a computer 06:42:47 will they be able to understand them? 06:42:48 Java's interpretation of "OOP" ranks high up there with building the pyramids to appease the sun god, or some such fruitless but marvelous effort. 06:45:06 they will, in the same way we understand how the pyramids are made. they will synthesize our massive architectures to a few self-evident theorems taught to school children in algebra classes. 06:45:55 -!- uchitoru [n=user@85.139.117.150] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:50:36 don't remember where, but i saw a java gui book who had code for drawing a button on the screen. white labeled button super imposed on a black size only slightly larger. guess why? :-P 06:50:57 s/who/which/ 06:51:16 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:51:56 grammar failure. white *rectangle* on a black one only a few pixels large .. for the border effect. 06:53:56 LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has joined #lisp 06:58:37 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.203.169] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 06:59:21 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:06:30 -!- enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:11:13 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 07:16:40 prowack- [n=ask@modemcable245.154-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:18:56 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 07:21:30 -!- froog____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:22:55 crod [n=cmell@cb8a9b-080.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:23:01 froog____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 07:24:40 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a9b-080.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:25:13 -!- LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:34:15 -!- prowack [n=ask@modemcable245.154-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:34:54 Archangel_13 [n=kevin@216-197-159-94.estv.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca] has joined #lisp 07:44:23 ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:48:46 -!- kami-` [n=user@p4FD38ACE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:56:47 nicolas [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:40 I read somehow that lisp is better than oo 08:02:52 Better than oo ? 08:03:11 oo - some bizarre programming language, or oo - object orientation? 08:03:40 if it's the second it sounds like you've been reading graham ;) 08:04:08 the_unmaker, I hope you're aware of CLOS! It's simpler than C++ and at the same time more powerful. 08:04:12 lisp is better than OOP in the same way arms are better than fingers 08:04:53 the_unmaker, fortunately for us, Lisp is a multi-paradigm language that supports object-oriented programming (CLOS), domain-specific languages (macros), side-effect-free programming, and much more. 08:04:56 Wht a good comparision. 08:05:30 fusss: I will celebrate your excellent comparision there by making 3 cups of coffee. 08:05:35 the_unmaker, see http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp#Generic_Functions 08:05:40 *schme_* is cutting down ;) 08:06:05 schme_, you need to do like Dilbert. One mug, but large enough. :) 08:06:12 Who is that? 08:06:22 LOL 08:06:23 It is one mug. It takes 4 cups. 08:06:47 lol 08:07:02 I like 2 or 3 of those for breakfast normally. But I am cutting down. 08:07:04 whats a higher order function? 08:07:33 the_unmaker: a function that can take another function as an argument or return one 08:07:39 the_unmaker: Anyway. Certain people feel that functional programming is better than object oriented programming, and certain people also feel that lisp should not be OO but be functional. 08:09:05 lukego [n=lukegorr@58.173.217.78] has joined #lisp 08:09:10 hm 08:09:44 do you still enjoy common lisp over say haskell? what did graham mean when he said strongly types languages discourage exploratory programming? 08:10:05 I much enjoy common lisp over haskell. 08:10:07 i still don't believe the_unmaker is a troll. Nope! not him. 08:10:43 If I had to go somewhere else I'd go erlang. It's haskelly but without the typesystem. ;) 08:11:07 the_unmaker: I have no idea what graham meant. You could probably mail him. 08:11:17 yes i saw it has a cool webserver named yaws 08:11:23 hm 08:11:53 I wonder how convincingly could write a bot that collected statements from blogs, and issued them to the channel as questions 08:11:53 Well my main point there was that I'd go there just because it did not have the insane strong typing ;) 08:11:55 http://paulgraham.com/lispfaq1.html toward bottom 08:11:57 the_unmaker, I prefer Common Lisp over Haskell. Partially because of the typing, but partially because you can implement Haskell as a DSL in Lisp. The opposite is not possible (as easily). 08:12:00 ML and its deriatives 08:12:15 seangrove [n=sgrove@adsl-76-238-251-5.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:32 tic: I have heard that lisp can create the features of other lanuages 08:12:33 hefner: That's evil :) 08:12:38 just add that feature to lisp 08:12:42 tic: when did embedding Haskell in Lisp become easy? 08:12:47 Yes. It's magic. 08:12:51 Just like all other languages. 08:13:05 pkhuong, compared to the other way around. I exaggerated. 08:13:28 pkhuong: when Church came up with that annoying thesis of his :-) 08:13:41 pkhuong, my point was that it's often easier to add certain programming styles to Lisp compared to other languages. 08:13:45 possible rather, not easy 08:13:51 I'm sure we can all agree that writing a lisp interpreter in lisp is less work than writing one in haskell. 08:13:59 I saw some really cool things coming out for web stuff of lisp, such as coreserver and hmm what was that other one... 08:14:12 fusss, well, it's always possible. See Turing. ;) Relatively easier, then? 08:14:29 hefner: not a bot, but maybe giovani, what was his name? 08:14:32 schme_, is it really? for -any- Lisp? 08:14:40 schme_: not that much, no. 08:15:02 I'll rephrase that. 08:15:13 I'm sure we can all agree that writing a foo-lisp interpreter in foo-lisp is less work than writing one in haskell. 08:15:13 schme_, unless you're saying trivial (read)? 08:15:19 tic: of course I am! 08:15:27 schme_: again, not that much so. 08:15:29 schme_, meh :) 08:15:30 schme_: a metacircular interpreter :-) 08:15:45 ok. 08:15:53 #lisp has no humor at lunch time :) 08:16:05 -!- nicolas [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:16:28 http://www.fractalconcept.com/asp/F18/sdataQvEsRqv7ZexkDM==/5sdataQonrZFvXCs3qnNcICX== fractal 08:16:31 the_unmaker: It says here in the link you gave "The inability to have lists of mixed types is a particularly crippling restriction. It gets in the way of exploratory programming" 08:16:34 pkhuong, would you care to share your opinion on the matter of the ease of teaching programming langauges new tricks, specifically from a Lisp perspective? I'm curious as you have more experience with Lisp than I have. 08:16:35 althought not much on this site 08:16:40 the_unmaker: So that's probably why he feels that way. 08:16:45 -!- Archangel_13 [n=kevin@216-197-159-94.estv.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:17:05 yah 08:18:04 sthalik [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:18:21 darn, no attila 08:18:54 If i read pcl will I be able to pick up lisp web frameworks? 08:19:04 anyone here knows perec internals? 08:19:06 no guarantees. but if you know Lisp, it'll probably make it easier. 08:19:40 -!- sthalik is now known as weirdo 08:20:13 I should proably get to know emacs and learn to type as well 08:20:19 tic: i think macros are fun and easy to work with, but far from essential. Moreover, there is a tendency to abuse macros when an SSC would be able to do as good a job, if not better. So, in a counting angels on a pinhead (or program specialisation) sort of way, macros are overrated. e.g., most of the complexity in the MOP comes from an engineering (but very defendable) decision to not rely on a mythically smart compiler. 08:20:19 SIGH so much to learn 08:20:41 ssc? 08:20:46 what is an ssc? 08:20:53 the_unmaker: Why the sighing? Much to learn == much fun. 08:21:26 I never learned to type 08:21:30 kinda scared 08:21:38 feel dumb when I try 08:21:55 I'm no expert on any of these matters with teaching dogs new tricks, but from my experience it is as easy to teach, say prolog, new tricks as with lisps. 08:22:04 So I'd assume it was common practice for most languages. 08:22:14 the_unmaker: You can't type? 08:22:20 well 08:22:25 sort fo self taught 08:22:27 of 08:22:33 ~40wpm 08:22:42 look at keys.. 08:22:53 pkhuong, I see your point, but I feel SSC (unless you mean DWIM-mode, heh) is orthogonal to _my_ view of macros, i.e. DSLs. If you have the energy/time, could you shed some light on that part? 08:23:00 I'm happy it was not some sort of bad haskell vs. lisp joke. 08:23:41 the_unmaker: What you should do is get some typing tutor software. And make sure you use the strictness of having your hands in the correct position. 08:23:53 the_unmaker: Besides.. most people are self taught, no? :) 08:23:56 I switched to dvorak so I could learn to touch-type properly. 08:24:13 I think that is why a lot of people feel they type faster on dvorak. 08:24:27 Emacspeak! 08:24:35 schme_, it's a funny phrase. "No, I'm not being -forced- to learn something, so my education isn't as much worth as yours" 08:24:49 Hehehehe. 08:25:06 schme_, could be, could be. I know it hurts my wrists less. That, and avoiding chords. ;) 08:25:22 tic: I don't see how lisp makes writing DSLs easier; you can use syntactically cheap lambdas for binders, and construct ASTs with function/constructor calls. 08:25:24 I'm sure you could hack vim up to allow you to do some chords ;) 08:25:55 schme_, :( 08:26:03 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:26:06 That's the funny with lisp. It's not magic at all ;) 08:26:07 dvorak? 08:26:15 did you get stickers for your keyboard? 08:26:18 No. 08:26:23 the_unmaker: No stickers. 08:26:38 Hmm.. what was that url again. 08:26:44 but doesnt dvorak have keys in certain palces not same as standard keyboard? 08:26:45 we touch type. I have a blank keyboard nowadays (Das Keyboard). Mechanical switches are incredibly nice. 08:26:56 pkhuong: don't know about DSL, but for blown compilers I would say SML has the best infrastructure. several backend generators and such. 08:26:59 the_unmaker, that's configurable through a keymap. The physical keyboard is the same. 08:27:27 the_unmaker: It's basically just that letters go on different keys than on the qwerty. But if one does not look at the keys it does not matter. 08:27:34 [Head|Rest] [i=kvirc@217.149.187.4] has joined #lisp 08:29:03 the_unmaker: I used this meself: http://www.gigliwood.com/abcd/abcd.html 08:29:05 aah 08:29:16 Maybe I should get paid to market that. 08:29:22 hm 08:29:47 pkhuong, and that's where I feel we're homing in on the Turing tarpit. While 100% DSLs could certainly be implemented in, say, C++ rather easily, how about integration of the DSL with the rest of the language? I'm not saying I'm right and you're wrong, obviously, but I can't really argue for my case either. :) 08:30:15 schme_, me too! 08:30:22 so under xwindows I can redo the keyboard mappings anytime? 08:30:26 hm 08:30:32 wonder where i set that 08:30:53 is dvorak like the fastest way to type? 08:31:06 the_unmaker: You can use xmodmap to redo the keyboard mappings. 08:31:15 tic: I don't see the turing tarpit issue. I specifically focused on how syntax could remain lightweight. Writing an interpreter in any decent language will be similarly easy. 08:31:28 the_unmaker, I think you'll be able to find answers to your questions on Google, really. 08:31:46 Bah. 08:31:48 tic: it's heaps easier to do DSLs in Lisp than most other mainstream languages. you don't have to prove it, neither do i, just look at how many DSLs were prototyped with Lisp ... 08:32:07 fusss: look at how many DSLs were prototypes in ocaml or haskell. 08:32:17 fusss: Doesn't than only prove that prototyping is easier though? :) 08:32:29 pkhuong, the DSL itself, sure, but how about the support mechanisms? Say specifically C++. But maybe that wasn't what you were thinking of? 08:32:44 Hmm.. 08:32:58 If C++ is anything like C, it seems like a bad choice :) 08:32:59 (I have written a compiler in Haskell. It was quite easy thanks to the pattern matching. So I'm not saying it's cumbersome at all, I just want to be enlightened.) 08:33:05 schme_, you can have functors. 08:33:11 Thanks! 08:33:13 C++ is not at all what I was thinking of. 08:33:29 OK. 08:33:42 the_unmaker: have a look at http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/09/programmings-dirtiest-little-secret.html 08:34:07 pkhuong: i cann't think of ONE that was prototyped with Haskell. I know HaXe has an Ocaml compiler. but I already agreed they had better *compiler* tools, Lisp has interpretation cornered i believe. 08:34:29 What is in the interpretation corner? 08:34:32 how do i revert to an earlier file version in darcs? 08:34:42 weirdo, see #darcs or google? 08:35:21 right 08:35:33 I thought prolog was about even on lisp for interpretation of stuff, so maybe I misunderstood the term interpretation. This is why I ask :) 08:35:38 TomA [n=foobarba@121.214.190.80] has joined #lisp 08:35:38 pjb: yegge >_> 08:36:02 fusss: conal elliot developed several image/scene manipulation optimising DSLs in Haskell. 08:36:25 schme_: prolog makes grammar specification trivial, but Lisp more straightforward control structures 08:36:36 Hmm... 08:36:40 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:36:44 I'm not sure I'm following you there, but ok. 08:36:54 If I'm using sb-profile and calling an alien function that calls malloc and/or use alloca internally is it possible that sb-profile would count that function as having consed some bytes 08:36:59 What sort of control structures? 08:37:02 TomA: no. 08:37:05 *uses* 08:37:17 Not from the malloc/alloca itself, that is. 08:38:04 pkhuong: Thanks 08:38:21 Ah sweet sweet coffee taking the headache away. 08:38:52 schme_: prolog is, well, one of those languages that are extremely attractive when they're used to solve their domain problems. but as soon as you want to control the inference engine, with cuts, you enter a world of pain 08:39:13 fusss: Hmm.. I never quite experienced it like that. 08:39:23 attila_lendvai: !!! 08:39:28 are you here? :-) 08:40:05 fusss: And I'd go with it's quite easy making it do whatever you want really. 08:40:07 But ok :) 08:40:22 weirdo: hey 08:40:29 that reminds me, I need to read more in my Prolog book so I can solve problems that require backtracking. :) 08:40:29 Now lisp then. 08:40:36 schme_: a safe distance is a prolog in Lisp. or maybe you want a forward chaining tool, like Lisa. 08:40:51 fusss: Lisa is sleeping ;) 08:41:04 a safe distance though? I'm not following here. 08:41:08 (at all really) 08:41:10 weirdo pasted "execute-query recent breakage" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70911 08:41:20 lol 08:41:30 gnu typing tutor 08:41:37 takes deep breath 08:41:52 I have at some time looked at a prolog in lisp, and it was horror. 08:41:59 attila_lendvai: uh, here 'instance' is unbound but in the code it is 08:41:59 schme_, the PAIP one? 08:42:00 schme_: keep in mind i have been awake for the last 32 hours :-P i have been in love with prolog singing its praises, and then .. hit the prolog wall 08:42:20 fusss: Oh I'm not in love with it. I'm just curious about this wall. 08:42:40 tic: Hmm.. I'm not sure. it was some time ago. 08:42:42 attila_lendvai: apparently something broke with dynamic typep 08:43:16 Actually I'm a dumbass, the function I was asking about earlier calls back into lisp, and the amount of consing I'm seeing is perfectly reasonable for that callback 08:43:33 schme_, maybe the Prolog provided with one of the commercial Lisps? (can't remember which one) 08:43:38 fusss: And seriously you should get some sleep! 32hrs without sleep will do bad things for you muscle build :) 08:43:56 tic: I seem to remember allegro having one. 08:44:04 tic: Either way it was horror :) 08:44:27 schme_, if you sometime remember why, feel free to share. 08:44:40 schme_: i would say it's probably a personal/aesthetic matter. i found myself working hard to emulate non-logic related aspects of the application in prolog's primitive procedural features. just wished there was a way to use prolog as an external tool to act on data and return results. not as main language. 08:45:11 I have this book by winston and horn and it mentions forward and abckward chaining 08:45:27 weirdo: i'll record it as a failing test. the others will fix it in hte following days... 08:45:53 fusss: Oh ok. Ya that makes total sense :) 08:46:10 attila_lendvai: any idea what broke it? 08:46:21 tic: Lets just say I can't ever imagine someone implementing erlang in a "in-lisp" prolog :) 08:46:48 tic: It seemed to lack certain things.. like the code == data. I mean it's part of lisp, but you didn't get the prolog bit of it. 08:46:52 tic: and it was butt-ugly :) 08:47:23 weirdo: you don't need to use equal oid-of... just use eq without oid-of, the compiler will know what you mean 08:47:39 schme_, okay. didn't you have any use at all of the prolog bits? 08:47:42 attila_lendvai: thanks 08:47:48 schme_, maybe you were just trying to solve the wrong problem in it? :) 08:48:18 tic: It was some problem not suited for the "in-lisp" prolog I was using, for sure. 08:48:39 tic: But it's no surprise really.. I wouldn't expect the "in-prolog" lisps to be very neat either :) 08:48:41 schme_, well obviously. :) 08:50:38 -!- [Head|Rest] [i=kvirc@217.149.187.4] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:50:43 attila_lendvai: hmm, testing for equality in conjunction with dynamic typep is what breaks it 08:50:55 whether it's oid-of or plain eq 08:51:19 i don't mean to rush, but the regression broke my whole codebase 08:51:33 fusss: There is a C++ interface thing for swipl, I'm sure one could make it work with CFFI or some such. 08:53:20 yeah, but i wont be needing that anymore 08:53:33 :) 08:54:30 how about lisp dns or email or something 08:54:46 What about it? 08:55:33 the_unmaker, cliki.net/Library or common-lisp.net maybe. 08:55:48 I had this article to a lisp dns by a franz guy 08:55:57 and someone literally took the page off the next day 08:56:00 I was like wtf 08:56:15 guy did it to demonstrate how little code could implement standard in 08:56:23 and to learn the standard 08:56:31 sounds like a lispm screencast! 08:56:37 cool eh 08:57:02 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:58:29 A guy named Franz advocating lisp!? 08:58:31 I think there should be a programming olympics 08:58:32 That's crazy. 08:58:45 I thought there was some annual programming competition. 08:58:57 that's the problem with running alpha code :/ 08:58:58 so functional programmers can come out and flatten perl n friends in plain view 08:59:12 Java often wins, Team Smartass (Google) 09:00:03 no kidding? 09:00:11 java I thought was evil incarnate 09:00:19 the code equiv to the point haired mgr 09:03:50 Why? 09:03:50 That'd be visual basic 09:04:07 It's the backbone of the world wide web. So I guess that could count as evil. 09:11:43 VityokOrgUa [n=user@91.193.174.4] has joined #lisp 09:12:05 weirdo: just unpull some patches from perec... i'v pushed the failing testcase 09:13:36 weirdo: and thanks for the report! 09:14:38 -!- TomA [n=foobarba@121.214.190.80] has quit [] 09:14:42 attila_lendvai: would bisect help? 09:22:22 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:23:53 _sohail_ [n=Sohail@d207-81-121-15.bchsia.telus.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:42 weirdo: when did you pull last time? 09:24:58 weirdo: i mean before the pull that brought the breakage 09:25:03 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:25:38 attila_lendvai: sep 10 09:26:06 for now, sep 26 works 09:27:07 weirdo: then i'd just use that and wait until that regression is fixed in the following days... 09:27:29 nostoi [n=nostoi@217.Red-83-54-13.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:30 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a6f-160.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:29:23 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a9b-080.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:33:31 -!- _sohail_ is now known as sohail 09:34:28 -!- kngspook [n=King@unaffiliated/alpha] has quit [] 09:34:56 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB8051.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:38:07 emarsden [n=user@mir31-3-82-234-52-44.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:14 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.72.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:42:41 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.72.241] has joined #lisp 09:51:33 -!- H4ns2 [n=Hans@p57BBA625.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:52:24 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf77d.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 09:53:08 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@d207-81-121-15.bchsia.telus.net] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 09:54:05 java seems qite slow to me 09:54:57 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2E94A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:09 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:55:40 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2DEC5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:55:46 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 09:56:39 the_unmaker: java has no speed 09:56:55 attila_lendvai: i now know why oid-of is used explicitly, plain equal fails even for the old version 09:58:52 weirdo: hmm... i'll extend the test case 10:00:02 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:00:25 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 10:02:34 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:04:06 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm89.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:05:17 what's the best way to shadow sb-impl::package-at-variance badness for asdf? 10:06:42 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084222.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 10:08:26 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-157.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:08:48 weirdo: add the missing symbols/used packages? 10:12:53 michaelw: that's my code and i don't care, i just don't want to get dropped to the debugger with a non-descriptive error format 10:13:19 uh 10:13:24 s/my code/not &/ 10:16:39 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:17:15 besiria` [n=user@ppp083212084222.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 10:18:26 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:19:21 huh, cliki is down? 10:19:22 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:20:33 <_3b> seems to have expired domain 10:21:26 weirdo: well, you can probably muffle the warning 10:24:08 danb owns "cliki.net" IIRC, and his two other domains are dead. anyone know if he is OK? 10:24:26 Cliki works for me, btw 10:25:16 IP 80.68.85.134 10:26:14 hm one can put a lot of time into refactoring between classes with class-based OO and not seem to accomplish anything 10:26:32 lukego: heh, yes 10:26:57 well, cliki just died on me as well 10:28:15 whois suggests cliki.net just expired 10:29:03 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084222.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:33:05 is some spammer gonna grab this? 10:33:25 or does name registration have some sort of grace period? 10:34:21 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:34:37 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-9-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 10:34:46 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:35:54 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@92.41.35.140.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:36:31 just tried to reserve it but it's on client hold by joker.com, a german domain reseller? 10:36:55 <_3b> looked like you could renew it at joker if you wanted 10:37:34 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@217.Red-83-54-13.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:37:37 I mailed the listed admin contacts 10:38:48 lemme try that 10:39:10 wait, is this gonna shoot up the price? if many of us look it up? 10:39:44 so what kinda of programs are you guys writing lately? 10:41:04 _3b: nope. it's grayed out. this could be really embarassing/expensive 10:42:32 <_3b> grayed out where? 10:42:51 it has a red square button. 10:44:39 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:44:59 <_3b> going through https://joker.com/index.joker?mode=menu_renewal you mean? 10:45:31 anyone here try cl-embed for the web? 10:45:38 supposed to be kinda php -ish 10:46:10 joker itself owns the domain and they could be waiting out for interested parties to pour in before they jackup the price 10:46:16 yeah 10:46:39 no, not renewal, just buying it anew 10:46:56 better to have something memorable than something perfectly what you like 10:47:04 lambdabomb.com 10:47:11 would be great name for lisp site 10:47:44 that link actually works 10:48:06 <_3b> looks like joker gives 30 days to renew it 10:48:33 Sorry, we couldn't find lambdabomb.com not for me 10:48:42 ahhh, that's nice of them 10:48:50 <_3b> possibly another 30 days after that too 10:49:19 <_3b> more expensive during the 2nd 30 days though 10:51:05 joker.com doesn't look to good in google ?q=joker.com+AND+fraud :-| 10:51:29 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@92.41.35.140.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has left #lisp 10:52:48 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has quit ["A way a lone a last a loved a long the..."] 10:52:57 ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:56:09 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 10:56:15 ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:57:17 <_3b> heh, thought the cliki problem sounded familiar : http://xach.livejournal.com/145603.html?thread=272323 10:57:48 [Head|Rest] [i=kvirc@217.149.187.128] has joined #lisp 11:00:18 HAHA 11:01:06 *fusss* google xach's phone # 11:04:37 I think of web a simply a collection of files 11:04:50 be ncie for me to build a file rewirting lisp program 11:04:54 and call it an appserver 11:05:10 -!- the_unmaker [n=Administ@cpe-76-174-30-243.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:14:41 is it enough to wrap asdf:operate with handler-bind some-warning muffle-warnings to get rid of the interruption? 11:15:11 aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 11:15:31 ejs [n=eugen@94.178.16.137] has joined #lisp 11:16:49 -!- besiria` [n=user@ppp083212084222.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:17:17 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:18:01 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084222.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 11:22:22 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.18/2008102918]"] 11:27:35 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084222.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:27:47 besiria 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[n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:54:34 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 12:55:15 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 13:00:53 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:56 -!- photon is now known as photon2 13:01:41 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf77d.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:02:17 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@91.193.174.4] has quit ["time to go"] 13:02:53 -!- photon2 is now known as photon 13:05:41 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084222.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 13:06:52 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 13:07:15 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.134.151] has joined #lisp 13:13:06 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:13:08 dthomp [n=dat@c-24-22-103-86.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:09 doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 13:15:32 Good afternoon. 13:15:42 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:09 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:18:24 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 13:19:09 hai beach 13:24:33 -!- dthomp [n=dat@c-24-22-103-86.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:26:52 -!- something [n=afeng@c-68-46-48-132.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:32:27 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:32:35 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 13:32:46 -!- holycow [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:35:43 good afternoon, beach 13:37:01 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483D03F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:41:14 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:42:45 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:13 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:49:36 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:49:48 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 13:51:06 phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 13:51:11 -!- phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:51:44 phytovor [i=mitja@cpe-92-37-27-8.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:34 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:54:12 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0E79C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:54:28 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0F5C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 13:54:35 -!- H4ns2 is now known as H4ns 13:54:56 hi, beach. happy glyphing? 13:55:22 ajhager_ [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:29 -!- ajhager_ [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:59:29 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D03F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:02 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 14:01:08 hello 14:01:37 any atdoc users here? 14:03:39 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:32 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:06:54 sthalik [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 14:07:13 so sbcl interpreter mode interprets the ir2 directly? 14:07:32 how much compilation time is saved by using interpreter mode? 14:07:38 -!- sthalik is now known as weirdo 14:10:41 -!- phytovor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:11:10 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 14:12:55 -!- doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:15:55 weirdo: all of it, of course 14:19:01 tic: yeah, it's going pretty well if I may say so myself. 14:19:05 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:19:14 doesn't really feel that fast, these: 14:19:15 ; compiling (DEFMETHOD (SETF SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS) ...) 14:19:24 don't scroll much faster than usual 14:19:26 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:22:19 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:23:57 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:00 I am thinging of making an intermediate step towards a frame-buffer backend for McCLIM, namely a medium that uses an X11 image and my own drawing primitives instead of the ones from the X11 core protocol. 14:25:02 weirdo: no, only CMUCL has a bytecode interpreter on top of IR2. SBCL's interpreter interprets sexps directly. 14:25:30 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 14:25:56 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:00 beach, good to hear! 14:27:22 weirdo: also, when you ask for a compilation, the compiler tends to get involved, regardless of whether the evaluator is an interpreter or not. 14:29:31 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:30:12 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:30:23 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:30:28 nvteighen [n=nvteighe@195.Red-81-35-183.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:32:38 is there a less clumsy way of saying (unless (setf *foo* (find-foo)) (setf *foo* (create-foo))) ? 14:33:11 <_3b> (setf *foo* (or (find-foo) (create-foo)) ? 14:33:47 _3b: thank you. 14:34:02 mib_8g9z3pfl [i=59bd9aa3@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-42ff739f3eaf7989] has joined #lisp 14:34:23 <_3b> or write a find-or-create-foo function 14:34:39 -!- nvteighen [n=nvteighe@195.Red-81-35-183.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 14:34:59 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:35:51 _3b: I am inside the find-or-create function. :) 14:36:22 _3b: I was just thinking in Java :) 14:37:02 by convention, call that ensure-foo 14:37:16 ivansto [i=ivans@93-138-60-54.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:37:22 hefner: will do. thank you. 14:37:59 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:29 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 14:42:00 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:32 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:01 -!- froog____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:43:34 -!- hrr4 [n=hrr4@80.78.22.172] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:44:21 -!- mib_8g9z3pfl [i=59bd9aa3@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-42ff739f3eaf7989] has left #lisp 14:44:55 froog____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 14:47:04 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.134.151] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:47:30 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 14:48:06 binghe [n=chatzill@60.12.227.4] has joined #lisp 14:48:38 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 14:48:41 -!- ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-138-9-9.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:49:16 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084222.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:49:54 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:53:57 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:53:59 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0E79C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:10 is there a memo bot? 14:56:39 weirdo: minion can do memos 14:56:45 minion: help 14:56:46 There are multiple help modules. Try ``/msg minion help kind'', where kind is one of: "lookups", "helping others", "adding terms", "aliasing terms", "forgetting", "memos", "avoiding memos", "nicknames", "goodies", "eliza", "advice", "apropos", "acronyms". 14:56:54 minion: memo for weirdo: this is how to do it. 14:56:54 Remembered. I'll tell weirdo when he/she/it next speaks. 14:57:23 thank you 14:57:53 minion: memo for attila_lendvai: the patch that broke it according to dissecting is Oct 10 17:49:52 CEST 2008 tomi.borbely@gmail.com * basic subselect support in queries 14:57:53 Remembered. I'll tell attila_lendvai when he/she/it next speaks. 14:57:53 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:58:04 minion: did you discard the memo for weirdo? 14:58:05 weirdo: no, i didn't discard the memo 14:58:17 i'm left without email atm 14:59:27 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 15:00:24 hmm, minion never delivered that memo. 15:00:31 i'm fighting sbcl's debugger... list-locals doesn't show all local variables (though it might have optimized some of them away), but the one it does show i can't access 15:01:02 i declared (optimize (debug 3)) by the way 15:01:16 speed 0 15:01:56 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03:33 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084222.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 15:03:40 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:06:01 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-62-216-215-117.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:13 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:18 stassats [n=stassats@ppp91-122-109-96.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 15:09:58 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-57-125.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 15:10:30 hmm.. i was doing it wrong, it wanted me to use (sb-debug:var 'blah).. i suppose that makes sense 15:10:30 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0E79C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:14:12 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.125.70] has joined #lisp 15:19:18 sellout [n=greg@nmd.sbx07502.somerma.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:46 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:21:41 lasts [n=lasts@77.207.25.109] has joined #lisp 15:22:58 hi 15:23:05 (defun fuu args (length args)) 15:23:19 what's the problem, please? how can I do that? :) 15:24:59 (I'm using sbcl, if that's important) 15:25:31 lasts: That syntax is not supported by DEFUN, and looks like a schemeism. 15:25:59 yeah, I would like to do something like (define (fuu . args) (length args)) 15:26:16 but hm 15:26:27 lasts: Read through the functions chapter of the book Practical Common Lisp. 15:26:27 I would like to do it in cl, so? :) 15:26:35 ok 15:26:46 lasts: It's a good book. Better read through all of it. 15:27:17 lasts: (defun fuu (&rest args) (length args)) 15:27:55 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 15:28:31 ooh thanks :) 15:28:46 You're still supposed to read through the relevant chapter in PCL. 15:29:41 lasts: How come you only chant to me? :( 15:29:52 err 15:29:54 locklace: * 15:30:05 yeah, I'm going to read it tcr :) 15:30:35 I was thanking both of you :} 15:30:44 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:39 lasts: also you could have checked 15:32:45 clhs 3.4.1 15:32:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_da.htm 15:34:04 Mynch [i=Mynch@ns150a.studby.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 15:35:31 sellout- [n=greg@nmd.sbx07502.somerma.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:14 froog_____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 15:37:22 -!- sellout [n=greg@nmd.sbx07502.somerma.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:38:18 Im trying to convert a list to a symbol (i guess), I want to convert something like this '(1 2 E) into 12E. Anyone have any tips on how I may go about doing that? 15:38:59 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:39:21 that's an odd thing to want to do 15:39:27 that it is 15:39:41 clhs intern 15:39:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_intern.htm 15:39:48 I guess it is :) 15:39:54 (make-symbol (format nil "~{~a~}" '(1 2 E)) 15:39:58 Mynch: look how mean I am: (intern (format nil "~{~A~}" list)) 15:40:20 s/I am/we are/ 15:40:22 *dlowe* considerately doesn't intern 15:40:35 thanks, i'll try that 15:41:35 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:44:29 froog______ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 15:44:55 -!- froog______ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:46:52 froog______ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 15:47:59 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:48:28 hefner_ [n=user@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:43 -!- froog_____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:49:43 -!- froog______ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:49:58 it worked, awesome! Thanks alot! 15:50:59 froog______ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 15:51:02 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 15:52:30 -!- froog____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:53:18 -!- H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0E79C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:53:19 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:52 froog_______ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 15:56:27 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:56:49 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:58:02 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:58:13 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:30 froog________ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 16:00:13 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:02:36 -!- froog________ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:07:03 -!- froog_______ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:07:31 froog_________ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 16:09:12 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:09:21 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:09:49 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:10:09 -!- froog______ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:10:34 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:12:44 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:13:36 froog__________ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 16:17:49 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:17:49 -!- binghe [n=chatzill@60.12.227.4] has left #lisp 16:19:08 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:25:29 elurin [n=user@81.213.203.169] has joined #lisp 16:26:48 froog___________ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 16:27:22 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:39 -!- froog_________ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:33:30 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46F41.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 16:34:42 How far away are the sbcl threads on netbsd? 16:34:58 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-155-194-215.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:21 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46F41.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:31 -!- froog__________ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:37:53 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:43:38 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:24 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:48:34 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 16:49:42 -!- froog___________ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:50:30 froog___________ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 16:55:29 sellout [n=greg@nmd.sbx07502.somerma.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:41 -!- sellout- [n=greg@nmd.sbx07502.somerma.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:57:17 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.203.169] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:00:17 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:01:29 pkhuong: Are you there? 17:02:13 yes 17:02:24 nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:30 pkhuong: I evaluated your defoptimizer for char-code in sb-c, but I don't get a different disassemble output for the test case. 17:03:43 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:04:10 tcr: the one you pasted or something else? 17:04:24 the one in the mail 17:05:00 Good evening. 17:05:02 pkhuong: Sorry, I had a typo. 17:05:09 tcr: ok. 17:05:28 pkhuong: It works. [I had (declare (type base-char)) instead of (declare (type base-char ch))] 17:07:11 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 17:09:49 sellout- [n=greg@nmd.sbx07502.somerma.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:30 -!- sellout [n=greg@nmd.sbx07502.somerma.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:09 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:21:20 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:33 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:24:15 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-241-16-81.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:26:52 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084222.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:27:49 elurin [n=user@81.213.203.169] has joined #lisp 17:32:37 -!- phao [n=phao@20158141180.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:33:04 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:03 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:37:49 eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:53 -!- eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:38:56 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:29 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:41:14 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 17:44:30 cpape [n=user@p5484EC8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:51 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.125.70] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:49:26 tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:49:53 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-155-194-215.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:50:16 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:55:09 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:55:24 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:55:29 prip [n=_prip@host245-134-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 17:56:57 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 17:57:11 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:57:16 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.203.169] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:57:17 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 17:57:52 -!- pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has left #lisp 18:02:13 zoba2 [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:02:15 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:02:25 -!- zoba2 is now known as Zoba 18:02:25 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit ["“But how are you going to do that?” “I plan to enter her sickroom disguised as a thermometer.”"] 18:08:32 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:09:05 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 18:13:05 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:21 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-122.kosnet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:13:58 disumu [n=disumu@p57A24464.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:27 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:14:46 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 18:15:53 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 18:17:31 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [Client Quit] 18:18:00 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 18:18:24 beach: I've put an example of using xrender trapezoids up at http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/mcclim/render-lines-1.lisp (as proof of concept antialiased version of medium-draw-line*) 18:19:20 it also makes my old svg path test image (and its approximated curves) much prettier - http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/mcclim/mcclim-aa-lines.png 18:20:43 -!- sellout- [n=greg@nmd.sbx07502.somerma.wayport.net] has quit [] 18:24:00 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:29:17 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:33:21 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 18:34:22 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 18:36:37 attila_lendvai [n=ati@131.31ec54.tvnetwork.hu] has joined #lisp 18:37:01 uchitoru [n=user@85.139.117.150] has joined #lisp 18:37:05 -!- uchitoru [n=user@85.139.117.150] has left #lisp 18:37:08 uchitoru [n=user@85.139.117.150] has joined #lisp 18:39:41 hi all. I just ran into a problem with a project. It takes to much time with complex problems. I've profiled the operation in lispworks and i've tracked the problem to an insert that is used lots of times 18:40:18 that insert is not destructive with setfs on let variables. Is it faster if it was destructive? 18:41:22 what i mean is. is it better (in matter of timing) to loop and collect non desctructively or just setf the "(nth y (nth x matrix))" ? 18:41:27 thnks 18:41:40 nth is pretty bad for you there 18:41:59 why are you using lists? 18:42:06 looping and collecting might be more predictable for you. each nth is another O(n) lookup 18:43:20 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-76-254-18-189.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:47 but im looping and collecting the intire matrix (and collect a diferent value in x y). this didn't sound rigth but when i started to setf the matrix even with a let i encontered too much variable modification problems. shall i stick to the loops then? 18:45:34 the problem is given all in lists. i guess processing into vector and at the end to list again was not worth it 18:45:55 (but im a noob. and listening) 18:47:28 uchitoru: why not? If you can't easily avoid random access on lists, converting to a real array and back would be faster than iterating over x and y while doing random access on lists. 18:47:53 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:49:01 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:41 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:50:04 you are using lists for a matrix? sounds like a bad idea. try doing it with a 2d array 18:50:30 mulligan [n=user@e178028009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:52:16 mulligan` [n=user@e178028009.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:52:40 thnks pkhuong an Hun. i guess i have 480 lines to look at and change:P lol. The thing is that the give structure is top 10x10 and given in lists. i never even though about using a diferent internal type. thnks 18:53:27 it depends on what you're doing. if you need random lookup, lists might be a bad idea (except if they're small... you get the idea) 18:54:04 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47190.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:54:38 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 18:56:19 uchi pasted "Insert" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70924 18:56:40 i mo sorry but my english sucks. i dont realy follow whats a random lookup. i just make lots of inserts like that http://paste.lisp.org/display/70924 18:57:06 that seems to take lots of time (as the profiler tell) 18:57:31 a random lookup into a data structure is when you don't need the elements just in order, but need access to a specific one via an index 18:57:33 like nth 18:57:52 oh ok 18:58:04 -!- ejs [n=eugen@94.178.16.137] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:58:16 lists are bad for these problems. use another structure then 18:59:33 cpape` [n=user@p5484F860.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:33 do u think im gona gain some significant time with this change. in a normal problem that insert is being called aprox. 40k times! 18:59:38 ? 18:59:57 <_3b> checking (x = xi) in the outer loop should speed up that function, using arrays would help more though 19:02:24 that would be just a (setf (aref board x y) val) with arrays 19:02:43 yes, i get it:) thnks a lot all. im not falling in the same mistake again. 19:03:16 <_3b> yeah, as it is, it is O(N*M), moving the (= x xi) would be O(N + M), aref would be O(1) 19:03:28 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:03:31 waw 19:03:35 O(1) and O(log n) are your friends. 19:03:51 lolol and n^n my enemy 19:04:09 n^n is particularly nasty. 19:04:10 n*m is not so bad. but beware of O(expt). that way lies insanity 19:04:24 Does SBCL have treads on MacOS with Intel processor? 19:04:42 =) 19:04:53 yes, and it works great for advancing on enemy positions 19:05:03 hmm... is there an algorithm with O(ackermann)? 19:05:51 hefner: was that a reply to me? 19:06:04 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@dpc6745208046.direcpc.com] has joined #lisp 19:06:07 beach: of a sort, yes 19:06:16 Hun: wouldn't that just reduce to an exponential? 19:06:16 hefner: hmm. 19:06:17 Jarv2 [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:06:34 hefner: thanks (I guess). 19:06:39 elurin [n=user@81.213.203.169] has joined #lisp 19:06:46 sykopomp: nope. ackermann is only exponential with first argument = 3 19:06:55 argh. it has treads! 19:07:01 hm 19:07:04 (or the second if i switched them again) 19:07:36 -!- yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:08:00 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46F41.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:08:15 for a(4) it's exponential exponential 19:08:22 and so on. it's pretty evil 19:13:07 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:13:24 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@dpc6745208046.direcpc.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:14:50 -!- uchitoru [n=user@85.139.117.150] has quit ["reboot needed"] 19:15:22 -!- cpape [n=user@p5484EC8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:20:27 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:21:11 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:21:57 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 19:24:12 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:25:25 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.125.70] has joined #lisp 19:26:38 -!- seangrove [n=sgrove@adsl-76-238-251-5.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:27:00 Hun: computing ackermann, for one. 19:27:20 ... 19:27:56 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:40:13 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:41:37 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:42:27 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:42:34 -!- aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:46:29 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:46:50 aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:41 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 19:52:02 -!- delYsid [n=user@debian/developer/mlang] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:52:35 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:55:51 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [] 20:00:03 -!- flavioc [n=flaviocr@217.129.160.175] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:00:26 flavioc [n=flaviocr@217.129.160.175] has joined #lisp 20:03:23 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 20:07:29 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.203.169] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:10:36 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 20:11:34 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:11:36 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:11:47 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:59 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-228-143.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 20:12:26 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has left #lisp 20:12:32 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 20:13:18 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 20:13:20 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 20:13:52 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:13:52 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:13:55 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 20:14:46 Hm. What's new? 20:16:41 can I create a special variable programmatically? 20:16:52 kami-, (declare (special foo)) ? 20:17:35 not declare 20:17:35 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has quit ["A way a lone a last a loved a long the..."] 20:17:47 kami-: (proclaim `(special ,my-symbol)) 20:18:36 I have a bunch of defvars: (defvar *foo* "http://some/uri/foo") 20:19:07 and I'd like to save typing, but I don't seem to get there with a macro 20:19:52 *tic_* checks up declare 20:20:06 foo -> (defvar *foo* ... ".../foo"), bar -> (defvar *bar* "..../bar") etc. 20:20:28 <_3b> how does the macro fail? 20:21:04 stassats, what would be the meaning of (declare (special foo))? Did I misunderstand the spec? 20:21:31 tic_: it is lexical, not programmatical 20:21:34 stassats, alright, so I meant within a specific scope. Gotcha. 20:21:54 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 20:22:18 _3b: I tried so many things... wait ... 20:24:56 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:25:12 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:25:58 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:26:13 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 20:26:17 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:29:44 (defmacro defvarone (arg) `(defvar ,(intern (format nil "*~A*" (symbol-name arg))) ,(format nil "http://blah/~A" (symbol-name arg)))) 20:30:02 that seems to come close, though i'm sure it's quite ugly 20:31:14 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:31:15 koning_robot: I think I tried sth like that and it interned the symbol in the common-lisp package. 20:31:16 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:31:26 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:31:33 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 20:31:50 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:32:06 <_3b> kami-: you can specify the package when you call INTERN 20:32:16 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:32:34 _3b: will try that. 20:32:58 syamajal_ [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 20:33:22 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 20:33:26 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:34:06 koning_robot: no, your version is correct. it interns in the current package. thank you. 20:34:45 <_3b> or for slightly more typing, just pass it *foo* directly, and use string-trim to remove the #\* 20:35:13 syamajala pasted "mop-utils problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70932 20:35:44 why is it trying to load :sb-mop when i run that on ccl? 20:35:59 _3b: I think koning_robot's version is OK for me. I now have to make the macro accept a list instead of a single symbol. 20:36:09 -!- syamajal_ is now known as syamajala 20:36:50 syamajala: the error message makes me think you have the wrong form. 20:37:52 do you mean the shadowing-import-from part? 20:38:32 <_3b> syamajala: i'd have guessed it isn't in the defpackage from the error 20:39:24 `position 2370, within "mop:standa"' doesn't seem to refer to the defpackage, unless it's stuck in the middle of the file. 20:39:37 ah! 20:39:38 <_3b> reader error would be when parsing a symbol, not executing a form, wouldn't it? 20:40:42 yeah that was it 20:40:53 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 20:40:56 it wasn't from the defpackage form 20:41:15 seangrove [n=sgrove@adsl-76-238-251-5.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:41:23 there was a macro that needed to be fixed 20:44:11 -!- tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:45:16 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 20:47:33 -!- Jarv2 is now known as Jarvellis 20:50:43 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-053-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:19 gigamonkey: hey 20:52:57 kami- pasted "this gives me a list" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70935 20:52:59 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-51c76764b0c13a5d] has joined #lisp 20:53:19 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:53:24 how can I splice the list? 20:53:30 to get out the defvars ? 20:54:06 put it into progn and do ,@? 20:54:19 ahh! thank you stassats 20:55:27 uchitoru [n=user@85.139.117.150] has joined #lisp 20:56:51 stassats: are the vars then still proclaimed special? 20:57:58 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:58:00 *kami-* can also just try instead of asking dumb questions 20:58:30 they should be, as far as i understand 20:59:17 also, see "Notes:" at the end of clhs entry for proclaim 21:00:16 ah, you don't use proclaim 21:00:26 hefner: nice lines! I think I'd like something like that (as opposed as to, say, gtkairo) for my chemical structure drawing stuff. 21:00:59 stassats: no, just defvar as koning_robot suggested 21:01:35 should I be using proclaim, if the defvars are wrapped in a progn? 21:02:38 no 21:05:02 Soulman [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:05:34 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:06:11 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl4-39-139.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:07:21 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:10:30 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb5249.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:12:41 hrr4 [n=hrr4@80.78.22.172] has joined #lisp 21:17:16 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:21:19 -!- Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:21:35 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-157.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:30:14 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-51c76764b0c13a5d] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:30:31 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl4-39-139.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:31:09 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:33:28 thanks everybody. good night. 21:33:37 -!- kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has left #lisp 21:34:46 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6668cf8fc263a59f] has joined #lisp 21:39:20 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:11 pinkey [n=chris@adsl-065-005-223-219.sip.chs.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:15 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2E94A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:43:31 is there a standard function to get the current time and date? 21:43:47 josemanuel [n=josemanu@11.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 21:44:02 clhs get-universal-time 21:44:02 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_un.htm 21:44:35 clhs 25.1.4 21:44:35 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/25_ad.htm 21:44:40 better 21:45:36 thanks stassats. :) 21:49:13 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-142-220.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:11 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:20 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 21:53:01 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:55:48 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:56:31 if anybody wants to renew the cliki domain with a personal credit card please msg me and i will pay my contribution via paypal 21:56:52 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.72.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:49 jensli [n=jens@m042d.studby.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 22:02:31 -!- Axioplase [n=pierard@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:03:38 Hi all! CLOS serialization question: 22:03:48 I want to serialize a CLOS object. Is there some way (with the standard library) to iterate over the slots of an object so i can store them in a list or something? 22:04:03 yes, with the mop. 22:04:12 mop class-direct-slots 22:04:28 hmm... 22:04:31 for industrial strength serialization use Elaphant, our dead-sexy object store :-) 22:04:37 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:13 oh, industrial strength is definetly overkill... 22:05:45 ill google mop class-direct-slots, thanks for that. 22:10:46 ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:24 jensli: for an in-between solution see cl-store :) 22:11:49 bloody Xach; must EVERYTHING be dead-sexy? :D 22:12:29 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has left #lisp 22:13:19 :-P 22:13:34 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:09 there was a recent blog post about a perl guy who wanted to demonstrate their new object store. he decided to do the examples in CL and Elephant, because it "looked" better! HAHA 22:14:38 I wonder. Has anyone had experience serializing altered classes with elephant? 22:15:03 I wonder if elephant's mop stuff can conflict with other mop stuff, or if it's mostly inspection. 22:15:30 here: http://blog.jrock.us/articles/Marriage%20and%20Object%20Databases.pod :-P 22:17:03 jensli: see cl-serializer (flexibility, performance) or cl-store (stability of features) 22:17:04 attila_lendvai, memo from weirdo: the patch that broke it according to dissecting is Oct 10 17:49:52 CEST 2008 tomi.borbely@gmail.com * basic subselect support in queries 22:22:29 phf [n=phf@c-69-140-35-170.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:38 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:51 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:25:07 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:26:27 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@131.31ec54.tvnetwork.hu] has quit ["..."] 22:31:26 -!- aja_ [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:36:30 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-199-4-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 22:36:59 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6668cf8fc263a59f] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:37:17 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:39:27 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:17 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:41:10 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Client Quit] 22:41:14 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:42:05 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-200-9-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 22:43:37 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:44:16 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:47:55 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 22:47:56 Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 22:50:27 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-053-029.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:55 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A24464.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 22:52:51 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:31 <_3b> hmm, i should have written a benchmark for my flash stuff, so i could tell how much of a hit running with everything cast to * is 22:55:16 <_3b> oh well, at least more code passes the VM's consistency checks now 22:55:22 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:55:27 -!- jensli [n=jens@m042d.studby.ntnu.no] has left #lisp 22:55:28 *_3b* should do a 0.001 release or something 22:55:48 what vcs would you recommend? 22:55:49 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.125.70] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:56:01 *_3b* uses git 22:56:05 kleppari: git 22:56:23 *stassats* uses git too 22:56:39 +1 22:58:11 darcs! 22:58:19 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:58:42 manuel__ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 22:58:43 <_3b> darcs seemed nice at first, but their hypothesis of patches didn't seem to be supported by actual use :( 22:58:44 I use darcs, but have been thinking about trying to figure out git. 22:58:45 hi 22:59:03 i get lots of "CLOSED" sockets with hunchentoot (behind apache frontend) 22:59:07 nyef, if you know Subversion, the Git for SVN users is a good crash course. 22:59:17 thanks :) 22:59:21 [mnl@mein ~]$ lsof -c sbcl | grep CLOSED | wc -l 22:59:22 tic: I've actively avoided knowing subversion. 22:59:22 3522 22:59:28 anybody have an idea where that comes from? 22:59:50 I want simple time/date arithmetic and parsing. Is local-time my best bet? 22:59:50 manuel__: I think I saw some discussions on this on the tbnl-devel mailing list 22:59:50 hang on 23:00:05 kleppari: cool gonna check 23:00:08 manuel__: That's an impressive number of file descriptors... More than I'd expect the default ulimit to be. 23:00:38 it's weird yes 23:01:11 aack [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 23:01:15 also i get the same kind of stuff with drakma:http-request 23:01:16 [mnl@mein ~]$ lsof -c sbcl | grep SYN_SENT | wc -l 23:01:17 1492 23:02:54 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:03:06 hm.. from a brief look at the docs, it doesn't seem like it support some kind of %H:%M parising though 23:03:23 strange how time/date seems to be hard to get right 23:03:28 vlAm [i=lala@82.75.179.174] has joined #lisp 23:03:42 Connect now to http://www.xradio.nl:8000/listen.pls nonstop music 128kb! 23:03:45 -!- vlAm [i=lala@82.75.179.174] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:05:01 olejorgenb: there's also net-telent-date, FWIW 23:05:03 nyef, fair enough. either way, should be easy to pick up git. it seems to have a lot of momentum these days. 23:05:35 _3b: are you using any of the undocumented flash vm opcodes? 23:05:57 <_3b> fusss: not sure, which are undocumented? 23:06:15 <_3b> fusss: my assembler knows about all the ones i could find from 2 or 3 sources 23:06:17 30 of them at least. 23:06:36 olejorgenb: i don't see how you can infer that local-time doesn't `get it right' because it doesn't do things as you're used to. 23:06:49 avm2intro is woefully inadequate; it's best to get what you need from the Tamarin sources on mozdev 23:07:12 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:07:32 <_3b> not sure i looked there, think i was looking at some haxe docs or something for a bunch of em 23:07:47 manuel__: I think you may be having network problems and be leaking FDs 23:07:58 pkhuong: I wasn't really refering to local-time, just date/time stuff in general. (I can't really critique date-time yet) 23:08:21 fe[nl]ix: yeah but where do they come from? :] 23:08:22 fusss pasted "complete AVM2 opcodes, from Tamarin sources." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70938 23:08:54 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:09:07 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483D03F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:09:29 <_3b> fusss: looks like my asm knows about 151 opcodes 23:09:40 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 23:09:46 you're probably missing the breakpoint stuff 23:10:03 <_3b> (:breakpoint () #x01 0 0) ; 23:10:11 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:10:38 <_3b> and some debugging stuff around #xf0 23:10:55 <_3b> debug, debug-line, debug-file 23:11:42 manuel__: drakma perhaps or anything else in your image that starts outbound connections 23:12:07 yeah, hunchentoot, it's directly related to hunchentoot, i just wanted to ask if somebody knew abut a similar problem 23:12:44 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:12:56 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:03 elurin [n=user@81.213.203.169] has joined #lisp 23:13:03 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:13:46 callinterface, concat, deletepropertylate, getouterscope, newactivation, etc. all absent from the spec. 23:13:56 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:14:15 <_3b> newactivation is there 23:14:29 aright, i wasn't missing much then 23:14:43 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 23:15:20 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:44 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:17:29 <_3b> pushconstant callsuperid callinterface applytype getouterscope setpropertylate deletepropertylate concat add_d bkptline from that list 23:17:34 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 23:18:54 <_3b> and have check-filter = #x78, and timestamp = #xf3 that aren't on the list 23:19:12 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:19:31 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@11.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:20:55 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-142-220.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:25:12 benchambers [n=benchamb@static-68-236-124-253.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:48 -!- benchambers [n=benchamb@static-68-236-124-253.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:26:55 benchambers [n=benchamb@static-68-236-124-253.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:28:33 Rigdern [n=Rigdern@pidgeotto-30.dynamic.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 23:29:02 O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:29:47 -!- benchambers [n=benchamb@static-68-236-124-253.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 23:32:20 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 23:34:59 all these look pretty useful for a lisp runtime. damn. 23:35:43 the HaXe people either have a guy in adobe or they're disassembling flash player :-P 23:36:14 <_3b> or looking at mxml stuff 23:36:17 do you have the signature for check-filter and timestamp? 23:36:28 O_4__ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:37:00 do you know of a decent as3 decompiler? I have flash and it barfs at most stuff 23:38:03 <_3b> nope, haven't done much with as3 beyond compiling/disassembling some simple tests to see how mcmlc compiles them 23:38:13 <_3b> *mxmlc 23:38:56 <_3b> check-filter appears to be 1 arg on stack, 1 result, 0/0 for timestamp, no immediate args for either 23:39:09 <_3b> no guarantee those are correct though, and no idea what they do :) 23:40:47 <_3b> uploading my stuff as soon as i figure out how to do the git stuff... 23:41:36 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:40 <_3b> guess i should write a readme or something for it too 23:42:09 syamajal_ [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has joined #lisp 23:42:32 teilzeitstudent [n=teilzeit@p5B17C35E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:48 -!- aack [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:51:50 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:52:40 -!- O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:53:38 -!- O_4__ is now known as O_4 23:57:35 VS is for weenie, real men lisppaste their stuff and let the world annotate it :-P 23:58:20 i'm not interested in vm itself; just wanna figure out a way to maintain large heap arrays and roll out my own lisp on top 23:58:43 <_3b> that sounds complicated :) 23:58:58 i know 23:59:35 just can't stomach the idea of implementing cons cells as an object with 2 properties: obj.car and obj.cdr 23:59:56 any trivial list will have a massive heirarchy and big overhead