00:01:03 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:01:19 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:03:47 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:08:23 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 00:11:42 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:19:43 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.149.216] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:21:01 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-061-065.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:36 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:22:24 vick [n=abc@217.54.234.50] has joined #lisp 00:22:27 Why can't an algorithm be a simple table look-up procedure ? 00:23:04 holymoly [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:18 it can, but in most cases you need a very huge table 00:23:35 the_unmaker [n=Administ@cpe-76-174-30-243.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:24:08 vick: you view a function as a mapping from input to output (domain and range), and if both are limited enough, you can define the entire function in a tabular fashion. 00:24:44 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:25:17 assuming that function is not affected by side effects 00:25:25 I am talking about the formal discription of an algorithm tho. 00:25:42 theory that is. 00:27:19 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 00:27:56 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:27:59 if function is defined on all integers, it's not very convenient to use tables 00:28:09 stassats: if you go out of your way to define a "function" in that manner, then it better be a function and not a procedure :-) 00:28:42 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:29:14 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:24 y = 2x IS a function defined on all integers, and there, it fits in a table 00:29:26 -!- chawls [n=nix@bzq-219-145-16.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:29:39 chawls [n=nix@bzq-219-145-16.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:50 what's the difference between functions and procedures? 00:29:53 No, not a "function, rather an "algorithm" 00:30:20 procedures are impure functions? 00:30:22 stassats: mathematical functions don't have side effects because they have no concept of state/memory 00:30:39 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 00:31:33 anyone using lisp for website? 00:31:38 vick: that's a good question and it makes for an excellent research paper :-P 00:31:43 the_unmaker: yes 00:32:03 Wait, wait... Isn't the_unmaker a known troll? 00:32:28 I definately remember making the obvious Alvin Miller joke. 00:33:02 (Alvin Miller / Alvin Smith / Alvin Maker.) 00:33:51 -!- Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:34:24 fusss: The reason i was asking is that i found it in one of the lectures i am studying. 00:35:16 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-039-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:19 nyef: maybe, but we wont know for sure til he trolls again. 00:36:21 vick: you could, in theory. but be prepared for a fruitless exercise in spreadsheet manipulation. 00:36:21 stassats: what if your function operates on an input stream of unknown length? 00:36:25 is there any tools, like for spam, for trolling detection? 00:36:40 your algorithm, rather. 00:36:54 the cordic algorithms for calculating trig functions are tight and table driven 00:37:41 divinebovine [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has joined #lisp 00:37:43 hefner: isn't that like operating on arbitrary integers? 00:37:54 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:38:02 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:38:48 -!- holymoly [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:38:53 vick: your lectures are probably describing "dynamic programming"; it's not "programming" in the coding sense. just table driven numerical calculations. 00:39:15 stassats: probably, yeah 00:39:55 stassats: It might be an interesting experiment to build such tools, as trolls can be placed on a subtlety spectrum, with the more subtle taking longer to figure out... 00:41:02 the origin of the name "dynamic programming" is actually VERY interesting, look the paper up on wikipedia 00:41:27 that is interesting, because ignorant of the history, I always thought it was a dumb name 00:41:59 hothoofs [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 00:42:27 no, it was called the way because the defense minister at the time, who was funding the project who was employing Bellman at the time, was pretty much anti-intellectual and anti-theory 00:42:41 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:42:48 you wouldn't get a grant if you were working on abstract math. you had to churn out engineering and pragmatic "stuff" 00:42:55 wait 00:43:04 http://www.wu-wien.ac.at/usr/h99c/h9951826/bellman_dynprog.pdf 00:43:38 fusss: Yes it is. 00:46:23 -!- nasloc__ [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:49:57 it's programming in the mathemtical programming (*cough*) sense; coming with a program, a plan. 00:50:28 -!- photon2 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:51:18 haskellers talk a lot about math 00:54:09 good for them 00:54:27 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 00:54:53 a program i'd like to see : given a natural language text, rate how biased it is based on diverse criteria. 00:56:29 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:56:36 -!- divinebovine [n=new@burnaby.axiomnetworking.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:01:37 defined biased 01:01:52 -!- ineiros_ [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:02:22 *hefner* doesn't like self-intersecting polygons 01:07:23 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:10:11 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:16 -!- avodonosov [n=Miranda@212.98.174.94] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:17 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 01:12:34 hefner: now you're starting to sound like a heskeller 01:13:23 I'm more of a heckler 01:13:59 Is there a CL D-Bus interface that isn't a set of bindings to libdbus? 01:14:26 cl-shortbus 01:14:51 Xach: herep 01:15:07 *hefner* wonders if xach is reading logs 01:15:39 He's emailed me a couple times in response to my queries. 01:15:52 Is he trying to break his IRC addiction? 01:16:10 An admirable endeavour, undoubtedly doomed to failure! 01:16:46 hefner: I'm not seeing any such project, either via google or cliki. 01:17:04 nyef: I made it up. 01:17:19 Fair enough. I'll keep it in mind as a possible project name, then. 01:17:21 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:18:20 disumu [n=disumu@p57A27FC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:54 great name for a visual basic FFI library 01:20:52 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:21:02 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.72.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:21:12 Umm... What? 01:21:39 Any library for calling VB code from CL would be a generic COM automation client library. 01:22:08 Unless you're talking vb .net, in which case it would probably be called "rdnzl" or something equally unpronouncable. 01:23:57 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.72.241] has joined #lisp 01:25:17 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E4AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:26:41 heh 01:27:06 gotta leave the bloody office, off to home 01:27:09 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.18/2008102918]"] 01:32:32 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@77.64.176.217] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:33:19 -!- the_unmaker [n=Administ@cpe-76-174-30-243.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:36:50 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:38:42 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:38:51 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 01:39:16 I never noticed before how the letter 'p' looks kind of like a question mark 01:39:41 That's being awful kind, really. 01:39:43 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:44:56 the only thing I really dislike about loop is wondering how to indent 'do' clauses every time I write one, and fighting with emacs about it 01:46:03 ths_ [n=ths@X5e0c.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:47:12 *stassats* has (setq lisp-simple-loop-indentation 1 lisp-loop-keyword-indentation 6 lisp-loop-forms-indentation 6) 01:47:55 kidd1 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:26 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 01:50:54 _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 01:55:08 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A27FC3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 02:00:23 -!- ths [n=ths@X759e.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:05:50 mhoelzl [n=tc@dslb-088-066-126-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:36 <_deepfire> gah 02:10:55 <_deepfire> cl-fad conflicts with alexandria over copy-file. 02:12:13 Ugh. Xfce requires that panel plugins be written using the GtkPlug interface. 02:15:49 cl-fad must be the trendiest library of them all 02:18:18 <_deepfire> nyef, What are you up to, wrt xfce? Some neat integration with CL? 02:18:42 <_deepfire> nyef, If so, did you look at E17? 02:19:27 _deepfire: I want a couple of panel plugins for things like better battery status display than the stock monitor, networkmanager integration, etc. 02:19:29 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:19:57 doesn't networkmanager have a panel plugin already? 02:20:08 clhs use-package 02:20:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_use_pk.htm 02:20:36 When last I checked, admittedly a while ago, the plugin I found claimed not to support encrypted networks and didn't work with xfce 4.4. 02:20:58 *_deepfire* ponders sending an email to both Edi and alexandria-devel, about copy-file.. 02:20:58 I may just have to do another full round of updates or something to see if the situation has improved. 02:22:08 Although neat integration with CL would be nice. 02:22:17 _deepfire: and what you expect them to do? rename it to copy-file-1 and copy-file-2? 02:22:41 How about renaming them to cl-fad:copy-file and alexandria:copy-file ? 02:22:45 <_deepfire> stassats, the status quo is simply abysmal. 02:24:31 <_deepfire> nyef, this is one step on the way of making :use useless. 02:25:55 <_deepfire> nyef, imagine the sheer shock of somebody who had used both of them for an extended amount of time, and now having to qualify all uses. 02:26:22 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-154-66.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit ["Some days you are the pigeon, other days the statue."] 02:26:54 <_deepfire> I mean, if alexandria starts to introduce gratuitious clashes like that.. 02:26:55 I'm having trouble with the concept of somebody using either of them. :-P 02:27:25 _deepfire: you mean, we don't need no packages? 02:28:24 sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.4.55.38] has joined #lisp 02:28:50 _deepfire: Are you sure this isn't an argument in favor of using :import-from in defpackage? 02:30:50 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:31:00 <_deepfire> nyef, indeed it is. It would work because cl-fad doesn't have many symbols. If it did, though, it would still classify as pain.. 02:31:56 <_deepfire> It still has the taste of a short-term solution. 02:33:35 <_deepfire> nyef, But, I forgot about :import-from. Thank you :-) 02:35:26 clhs package-internal-symbols 02:35:26 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for package-internal-symbols. 02:35:39 how many lisp smight not have package-internal-symbols ? 02:36:01 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:36:22 in ABCL it comes from :SYSTEM .. but there is no regular place huh? 02:37:10 So, there are... seven gtk bindings listed on cliki. Once you eliminate those involving talking-over-pipes and those using the LGPL or LLGPL license, you are left with one, lgtk, which seems to have been most recently updated on december 6th, 2003 and august 2nd, 2004 and makes no claims of being complete or usable. 02:37:31 dmiles_afk: What are you actually trying to do? 02:38:51 nyef: what's the point of eliminating lgpl when gtk itself is under lgpl? 02:39:02 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:39:28 stassats: The whole "dynamic linking of lisp code" argument. 02:39:50 nyef, i am in CYC allowing from CYC package people to use as muych common lisp as possible, so i created a function called (import-package ..) so the user can (import-package :CL-USER) so they will shadowing import of all symbols internal 02:39:54 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:40:12 dmiles_afk: Have a look at do-symbols. 02:40:48 i could use DO-SYMBOLS but for opencyc users they will get a unimplemented method exception 02:41:00 i was tying that before you replied ;P 02:41:39 stassats: Basically, gtk is safe to use as it is typically installed as a shared library using whatever platform conventions apply. But most lisp systems don't support the same kind of relinking of a deployed core quite so easily. 02:42:20 typing.. but at least i got it to work .. but i was thinking about trying to see what the CYC package was missing at the end of my function.. since i wanted to check thing out by myself calling the #'package-internal-symbols 02:43:18 neyf: and noticed it wasnt there .. sorta a red herring to my question .. the missing function want the cause it was more of internested the #'package-internal-symbols was still missing 02:43:29 want/wasnt 02:44:39 so hrrm i am just trying to decide if i should also (import-package :SYS) for the cyc users 02:45:03 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 02:46:23 Ah! clg's page is misleading. Apparently it was changed to MIT license three years ago... 02:46:48 if i did that they could call package-internal-symbol .. but not knowing if every lisp expects to have that function.. or if it belongs unaccessable from most users packages.. and if i or anyone wanted to call it in the future .. whta package would it normally be interned in 02:47:30 I get the distinct impression that it is, at best, an extension, and more likely an internal interface. 02:47:51 dmiles_afk: implementation dependent, there are no standardised packages, except :cl, :cl-user and :keyword 02:49:07 ok, so pretty much i can get away with only those standard packages 02:49:33 Essentially, do-symbols is the exported method to obtain information about the symbols (internal or otherwise) in a package. 02:50:42 and there is also DO-EXTERNAL-SYMBOLS 02:51:11 with-package-iterator feels neglected 02:51:20 ah, but you wanted INternal 02:51:36 hefner: emacs indents do clauses fine. twice. differently each time :) 02:52:00 sometimes I'm not even sure where I want to place the DO 02:52:18 chls DO-ALL-SYMOLS 02:52:37 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:50 *dmiles_afk* scoots closer to keyboard 02:53:43 *nyef* puts clg on his "to review" list. 02:53:50 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.72.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:54:19 I was well on my way to adding antialiased lines to mcclim, but my brain seems to have shut down several hours ago. 02:55:34 -!- fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:58:12 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:59:11 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 03:03:46 Ooh. Linux 2.6.28-rc6. Maybe I'll have a properly working machine for christmas at this rate. ^_^ 03:03:50 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:04:37 And, on that happy note, I'm gone for the evening. 03:04:39 G'night all. 03:06:50 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:45 so... can one us multiple mcclim backends at the same time, e.g. in different panes? 03:08:39 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 03:08:55 in theory, yes. I doubt anyone has tried it. 03:09:12 (I wouldn't know how to try it) 03:09:27 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-59-181.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:12:35 ok, thanks 03:19:27 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 03:19:32 Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:06 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 03:26:14 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 03:27:15 -!- sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.4.55.38] has quit [] 03:32:33 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:38:06 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.197.215] has joined #lisp 03:41:08 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.197.215] has quit [Client Quit] 03:41:18 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:42:13 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.197.215] has joined #lisp 03:43:04 phao [n=phao@20158130203.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 03:43:54 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.197.215] has quit [Client Quit] 03:44:05 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.197.215] has joined #lisp 03:44:15 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 03:44:28 -!- kidd [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:44:43 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.197.215] has quit [Client Quit] 03:44:49 <_deepfire> hmm, I wonder, what was the rationale for dropping IF-LET* from alexandria.. 03:45:14 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.197.215] has joined #lisp 03:46:05 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 03:46:25 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp89-110-51-186.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 03:50:10 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:50:23 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:50:55 kidd [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:56 -!- xan__ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:52:32 <_deepfire> Aha, when-let* was rewritten to be step-by-step binding, and if-let* was dropped because in this model the then branch is more ambiguous. 03:52:54 are there many companies employing people to work using common lisp? 03:54:51 phao: There are at least a few. 04:01:09 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:02:16 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 04:02:33 -!- vick [n=abc@217.54.234.50] has quit [] 04:04:04 ok 04:04:32 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:06:47 dthomp [n=dat@c-24-22-103-86.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:15 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:13:12 -!- drwhen [n=drwho@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:14:57 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:15:36 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:56 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:24:42 I don't know how anyone can read this chapter and not think that lisp is flippin powerful -> http://gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html 04:24:45 hi gigamonkey 04:24:49 yo 04:24:52 *stassats`* is going to write mcclim subrip subtitles editor 04:26:45 -!- dthomp [n=dat@c-24-22-103-86.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:28:50 cads_ [n=cadsmack@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:00 actually, i use very similar to pcl's database for tracking what music i listened, almost everyday 04:29:12 so it's really practical 04:30:51 can you guys suggest a lisp dialect to start out with? 04:30:57 common lisp 04:31:23 minion: please tell cads_ about pcl 04:31:24 cads_: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 04:33:06 I've read some old papers where a very clean and minimal form of lisp was used.. I liked the almost complete lack of syntax compared to other languages 04:33:35 and for some reason I have the impression that common lisp is more complex than that, though I haven't used it for anything 04:34:03 common lisp is pretty easy to understand and learn; some might argue that scheme might be a better dialect to take on as a beginner 04:34:32 cads_, I don't know nothing of CL, but it seems that the essense of CL is small, what is big is the "library" it has. 04:34:54 cads_: you can use a small subset of common lisp, which is clean (by your definition) 04:35:58 that should be good, then 04:36:00 scheme too contains some tough concepts, like continuations, but you are not obliged to use them 04:37:07 CL doesn't have continuations? 04:37:24 no, it doesn't 04:37:47 but it does have kickass closures, right? 04:37:55 sure 04:41:18 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 04:41:18 04:41:18 -!- names: ccl-logbot aja cads_ gigamonkey BrianRice b4|hraban kidd sellout stassats` xan_ binarycodes gonzojive phao amnesiac froog_ Eno_ rottcodd drdo mhoelzl _CitizenKane_ srcerer kidd1 ths_ oudeis hothoofs chawls willb dash__ dlisboa elurin ``Erik_ kpreid kami-` lyte borism cpc26 ivarref dlowe _Grub_ Jasko xinming lemoinem_ manuel_ hsaliak dv_ pkhuong binghe fe[nl]ix ace4016 dto tns Krystof H4ns1 x6j8x jfrancis sabetts mrsolo rdd ivanst p8m eno 04:41:18 -!- names: seelenquell_ replor H4ns pchrist kefka-the-great tmi cracki matimago bombshelter13 existentialmonk inetic jeremiah mathrick msingh ia danlei prowack tayssir joga sohail mishok13 crod nullwork_ grkz pchrist|univ |Soulman| segv Modius benny cky chillywilly eirik puddingpimp PissedNumlock Wombat1 bdowning spacebat mbac z0d kmkaplan stragerLN wgl johs Fade mgr CrazyEddy Aisling @chandler specbot minion lisppaste l4ndfo dnm a-s Jarvellis Draggor 04:41:18 -!- names: Khisanth nullwork tarbo lucca JuanDaugherty cmm- akhilleus adeht maskd andrewy Eleanore prip kleppari rotty neighb0rs gaja pwned arbscht rsynnott isomer Tordek felipe myrkraverk Axioplase Cel bohanlon fihi09 Harag1 mcxx lnostdal m4thrick orwxell araujo xristos agemo beach yango kuwabara yahooooo schme pierre__thierry ianmcorvidae p_l rlpowell locklace nyef hefner ltbarcly_ Adrinael Paraselene_ wlr brickhazel spiaggia l_a_m hypno tc-rucho 04:41:18 -!- names: Zhivago dostoyevsky phadthai dfox_ slyrus jmcphers mvilleneuve Quadrescence DrForr drewc cods bob_f sad0ur Buganini dwave Patzy mogunus Soulman eevar_ mr_uggla rumbleca tltstc bobrown`` dmiles_afk V-ille erg e271 cYmen mikezor pragma_ luis tessier jsnell r0bby delYsid michaelw guenther__ merlincorey kreuter mtd vcgomes Partyzan1 larstobi boyscared tic koning_robot andrerav albino bunz froydnj abend_ zbigniew maxote sjbach jkantz_ herbieB 04:41:18 -!- names: _deepfire Riastradh sykopomp kuhzoo simonb dublpaws authentic technik pok Thas djinni` emma olejorgenb mqt sbok mdxi slava bougyman thijso meingbg dcrawford housel ahaas Chrononaut Bucciarati mornfall jrockway djkthx jollygood_______ Guest53748 aking Xof turbo24prg retupmoca keithr gz @antifuchs rey_ qebab chii _3b clog foom bfein 04:41:19 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:41:30 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 04:41:37 you mean, lisp-1 and lisp-2? 04:41:45 ... 04:41:50 aye 04:42:10 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 04:42:47 this difference between cl and scheme is not the most important 04:43:02 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:43:05 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 04:44:31 one of them uses the same namespace for variables is it does for functions? 04:45:14 yes, in scheme variables and functions are in the same namespace 04:46:04 wouldn't that promote the idea of functions as first class objects 04:46:23 no 04:46:23 which may be passed as arguments to other functions, for example 04:46:37 it just slightly simplify syntax 04:47:01 cads_: It's only syntaxtical. You can still use functions as arguments, you just have to mention that they're functions. 04:47:11 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@69.143.195.98] has quit ["leaving"] 04:48:10 while i still miss funcall and function-designators in scheme 04:48:42 cads_: However, when you have only a single namespace, then you sometimes have to do some gymnastics to avoid selecting variable names that might conflict with function names. 04:49:04 cads_: you may want to read more about lisp-1 vs. lisp-2: http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 04:49:14 cads_: I've always seen the difference as a taste/philosophy thing, not something that can be described as objectively better or worse. 04:49:28 stassats, I was just looking at that 04:49:30 aja, I agree 04:49:59 it doesn't seem like a very important distinction 04:51:05 hmm, the paper mentions differences in statement evaluation between CL and scheme 04:51:16 that area holds a lot more interest to me 04:51:50 do either CL or scheme allow you to play around with statement reduction strategies? 04:53:09 I can imagine that they could bring you a lot closer to it than another language which was not so close to the lambda calculus 04:54:25 i believe, there are language which are more closer to lambda calculus than lisp 04:55:55 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 04:56:05 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:58:01 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:03:30 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:07:22 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:08:02 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:08:27 -!- hothoofs [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:08:28 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:08:43 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:31 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 05:10:06 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:14 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:14:56 lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:11 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1F8E4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:12 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A00FC.versanet.de] has quit [Success] 05:19:48 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D203.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:39 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 05:31:10 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.203.169] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:39:45 drwhen [n=drwho@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:21 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:44:12 Good morning. 05:44:12 beach, memo from tic: so what you had in mind was to simply copy the code in SB!IMPL that performs floating-point ops, specifically flonum-to-string and friends? 05:44:27 good morning, beach 05:44:34 -!- kami-` is now known as kami- 05:45:16 skrit [n=skrit@cpe-76-88-49-7.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:45:30 minion: memo for tic: I think we discussed this already. Krystof says the implementation of the algorithm from the paper is probably right, but the code in the printers that uses it might not be, so don't copy it. 05:45:31 Remembered. I'll tell tic when he/she/it next speaks. 05:45:43 mornin' beach 05:49:07 -!- dlisboa [n=diogo@bd219b49.virtua.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:52:54 oh dear, that time already? 05:53:21 hefner: indeed, and it's later than usual. 05:53:22 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:54:03 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 05:55:59 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.72.241] has joined #lisp 05:59:38 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E43A49.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:09 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.72.241] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:00:25 Guest16360 [n=patrick@74.167.137.69] has joined #lisp 06:04:40 yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has joined #lisp 06:16:27 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44A0D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:17:09 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.197.215] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 06:17:39 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:32:13 drewc: herep 06:32:25 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:37:31 is there a preffered lisp IDE? 06:37:39 emacs + slime 06:37:46 (+ sbcl) 06:39:38 anything more integrated and windows friendly? 06:39:51 "integrated"? 06:39:51 holycow [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 06:39:59 cads_: LispWorks 06:40:06 cads_: try CUSP 06:40:28 sykopomp: is it more "integrated"? 06:40:38 stassats`: no, but it's probably what he wants. 06:40:50 hehe 06:41:21 honestly by integrated I meant "lazy man appropriate" 06:41:30 cads_: emacs + slime 06:42:01 i am lazy and use slime 06:42:06 once my linux laptop gets back from the shop 06:42:16 I'll dive into emacs 06:42:26 isn't emacs working on windows? 06:42:37 *beach* is still amazed that there are still people using Windows. 06:42:55 for now I'm on windows and don't want to set up emacs and environment variables and all that trash 06:43:08 beach: yeah, by inertia 06:43:13 beach, it's terrible 06:43:15 cads_: then buy LispWorks. 06:43:47 *yawn* 06:43:47 tic, memo from beach: I think we discussed this already. Krystof says the implementation of the algorithm from the paper is probably right, but the code in the printers that uses it might not be, so don't copy it. 06:44:17 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:45:13 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 06:47:06 -!- lemoinem_ is now known as lemoinem 06:49:39 Krystof, aroundp 06:57:59 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:57 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:00:06 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 07:00:23 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:57 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:01:07 *tic* is reminded how badly Limp is in need of a good backrub. :( 07:04:20 bulllp [n=user@159.226.43.59] has joined #lisp 07:04:36 Alright, the abbreviation CSR makes much more sense now. Heh. 07:06:12 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:06:51 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:06:57 been benchmarking Flash all night. the bloody thing has a feature that kills any applet that tries to allocate large amounts of memory 07:07:21 any way to work around it? 07:07:31 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:07:51 tic: me? yeah, you need to load large data separately, as "movie clips" 07:09:03 i think 640k is somewhat of an acceptable range for a tinyish but useful lisp runtime. but hard to allocate that statically. 07:09:13 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 07:09:36 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:10:10 adobe has tools that let you convert your flash stuff to a win32 executable; that would make for a sweet was to distribute lisp apps 07:10:48 fusss, how close to CL is it? 07:11:12 tic: i haven't even started it. i must be making allot of noise eh? 07:11:40 how close do i want it to be? well 07:11:50 Yeah, that's probably what I meant to ask for. 07:11:59 so, will it be a lisp-1 or a lisp-n? 07:12:07 lisp2 07:12:25 isn't it supposed to be lisp-5 vs lisp-6? 07:12:33 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 07:12:37 flex has a bucketload of packages and it would be a mess to flatten them to one namespace 07:12:45 I can never remember how many namespaces there are. dreamsongs.com knows, and that's good enough for me. 07:13:29 fnordus [n=dnall@70.71.225.48] has joined #lisp 07:14:14 tic: i think it was kent, "technical issues in separating function cells and value cells" 07:15:29 fusss, yeah, but the shortest way to that article is through dreamsongs.com. :) 07:16:01 -!- Guest16360 [n=patrick@74.167.137.69] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:16:04 oh 07:16:09 Because Gabriel was co-author. 07:17:58 -!- bulllp [n=user@159.226.43.59] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:20:06 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 07:20:14 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:21:12 bulllp [n=user@159.226.43.59] has joined #lisp 07:21:49 i have a feeling i might break defmethod in a non-standard way, but i'm not sure 07:23:32 AS3 method take an implicit "this" argument. converting those "methods" to clos methods somehow promotes the cretins to the same level of multimethods, which is not right. AS methods are one shot functions and specialize on one parameter, which is already implicit 07:24:32 making them to a function that expect an explicit argument could get tedious pretty quick, but competent people can always write WITH-INSTANCE, which bind s.. never mind :-P 07:25:38 Yeah, isn't that OK? 07:25:57 just write a metaclass that automatically exposes this! 07:30:22 -!- binghe [n=binghe@218.109.150.173] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:30:22 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:35:56 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:36:29 -!- skrit [n=skrit@cpe-76-88-49-7.san.res.rr.com] has quit [] 07:40:37 -!- Harag1 [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:49:23 skrit [n=skrit@cpe-76-88-49-7.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:50:32 -!- lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:50:43 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:57:05 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp 07:57:47 ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 08:01:29 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 08:02:14 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:09 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:05:50 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:07:48 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:08 Now featuring a `v' and a `w': http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/fonts.png 08:16:24 beach: state-of-the-art! Wow! 08:16:26 >_> 08:17:01 actually, the font rendering looks pretty nice, even though the 'a' looks a bit funny 08:17:41 beach: what is this? truetype rasterizer in CL? 08:18:54 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:19:01 Hrm. Getting work done was more difficult than I believed it to be. greping for function definitions gets old rather quick. :| 08:22:34 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:24:22 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has quit ["x"] 08:24:57 ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 08:25:19 (m-v-l (flonum-to-digits 31.415)) ; => (2 "31415"). Excellent. 08:39:46 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:41:03 sykopomp: I agree with both things 08:41:38 slava: Nope, Metafont-like rendering with a subset of Metafont implemented as an embedded language. 08:42:26 I think the a looks friendly. Not how I'd write an a, but it fits in. 08:42:38 slava: so much more precise than Truetype will ever be on Linux because of patent problems. 08:43:07 tic: I can live with it. 08:43:58 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 08:44:08 beach: you don't use patented technologies or aren't afraid of patents? 08:44:16 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit ["Rebooting :-P"] 08:44:35 beach: do you plan on addressing multilingual fonts? 08:44:51 stassats`: For this particular rendering code, I don't think I am using patented technology. 08:45:33 slava: I would like to, but I would have to read up on the issues first. 08:45:54 slava: I am certainly planning to put some non-latin glyphs in there. 08:46:44 i vote for cyrillic 08:46:47 slava: I personally need Vietnamese characters, for instance, but they are not too different from latin ones. 08:47:33 stassats`: I think I'll finish ASCII first, and then work on Latin-1. 08:50:16 What's the function that just returns what's passed to it? 08:50:26 identity 08:50:36 stassats`: thanks! 08:51:23 *beach* vanishes to work on the `x'. 08:56:47 beach, what's your take on (internal) utility functionality in SICL? specifically, with-gensyms? 09:00:26 elderK [n=k@218-101-117-16.dialup.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 09:01:46 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:03:36 ejs [n=eugen@93-176-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:12 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:12:50 tic: you mean where to put it? 09:13:25 tic: I would try to make each module as independent as possible, so I would avoid a mandatory "utilities" module. 09:13:47 tic: this is so that implementations can pick and choose what to install. 09:15:19 beach, where to put it, if at all. I'm yanking some SBCL code and it's got some utilities attached to it, such as with-gensyms. I'll put it close to the call site. 09:17:07 g'day 09:19:44 heya 09:20:41 hello schme 09:20:44 hello elderK 09:21:27 elderK: new here? 09:22:04 in SBCL, am I right to assume #!+ is for features only present in the internal *features*-equivalent? 09:22:38 tic: http://sbcl-internals.cliki.net/Basics 09:22:51 stassats`, thanks. 09:23:09 Now featuring an `x' and an improved `a': http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/fonts.png 09:23:15 Sure am :) 09:23:15 Just in the process of building GCL 2.6.7 09:23:19 Not having a tremendous amount of luck. 09:23:38 elderK: Any particular reason for that choice of implementation? 09:23:59 sykopomp: does that `a' look better? 09:24:16 Not really, just that it was GNU. 09:24:36 elderK: what OS are you on? 09:25:16 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAF1D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:46 Linux 09:25:56 elderK: Then you are probably better off with SBCL. 09:26:08 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:26:12 minion: tell elderK about SBCL. 09:26:12 elderK: please look at SBCL: Steel Bank Common Lisp is an open source / free software Common Lisp implementation. http://www.cliki.net/SBCL 09:28:07 GCL seems kind of busted up. 09:29:51 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 09:32:25 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 09:32:26 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:35:00 is the cl.net cvs repo the authoritative place to get cl-smtp? 09:37:43 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:38:16 Man, Lisp looks really quite cool. 09:38:28 I can just seem to relate to it a lot easier than I can with Forth. 09:41:19 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:41:25 elderK: what made you want to learn Lisp? 09:41:59 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:42:39 Well, for a long time I was using a window manager called Ratpoison. 09:42:48 And, the author of that WM created another, called StumpWM. 09:42:51 Which is written using CL. 09:43:01 That, and Ive been investigating alternative languages lately :) 09:43:08 So, I thought Id take a peek at Lisp. 09:43:37 :) 09:43:53 Mainly because I want programming to be fun again, I'm just so terribly bored of C. 09:46:36 elderK: you seem to be saying all the right things! :) 09:46:59 Well, you see, just last week I was hired for a job. 09:47:09 The job is mostly driver development, assembly and C. 09:47:15 And, Ive been working strictly in C for years now. 09:47:23 Just, getting tired of being a Zealot. 09:47:33 And, having less and less time to play with things. 09:47:42 So, I want to accomplish more in my free time :) 09:48:19 Java is ugly, and I simply dislike it. C++ feels so damn bolted together. C is nice and all, but, just want a break from it. 09:48:27 elderK, have you looked at Practical Common Lisp? 09:48:43 So, Forth and Lisp are candidates. The guys at work are starting a for-fun-competition to learn Forth. 09:49:02 And Forth does have uses for work (OpenFirmware on the SPARC machines we use). 09:49:04 And I am :D 09:49:07 Im reading through it now. 09:49:12 Excellent. 09:49:12 PCL, that is. 09:49:20 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-157.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:49:23 Just trying to grok Keyword paramters now :) 09:49:46 I think later on I might try and implement a Binary search tree or something in CL. 09:49:49 Just for fun. 09:50:07 See, ADTs were always one of my favourite things to play with when I started programming. 09:50:15 So, every time I learn a new language, I start it with writing ADTs. 09:50:15 :) 09:50:23 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:50:35 sabetts, that'd be StumpWM author, I do believe. 09:50:35 :) 09:51:15 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:51:21 wb, sabetts. 09:51:52 elderK: anytime 09:53:07 Yus, just clicked to how the keyword parameter works :D 09:53:07 Yay. 09:53:38 See, I tend to do a lot of low-level tinkering. Drivers, Kernel code and the like. 09:53:41 Mostly for embedded chips. 09:53:50 it's surprising, I mean, why isn't CL that much used? 09:53:51 But sometimes for bigger systems, too. 09:54:02 So, itd be really neat to write a Runtime dynamic linker in Lisp! 09:54:03 :D 09:54:31 phao: why is that surprising to you? 09:54:39 Man, Im definitely coming back to this channel :) 09:54:51 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2DEC5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:56 phao: Its strange - a lot of the time, the most elegant and clean technologies are the most overlooked. 09:55:18 beach, It's kinda imposing my opinion (but I know it's not just mine's), but CL is way superior than most languages out there. 09:55:31 phao: There is no reason to believe that the "market" will start using things just because they are good. 09:55:38 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C220.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:55:43 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 09:55:49 not to do everything, but to do what those other languages are doing. 09:56:18 phao: I am telling you, the world is not organized in a way that good thing automatically become widespread. 09:56:31 in fact, worse is better. 09:56:48 phao: So you could regret that Lisp is not more popular, but it shouldn't come as a surprise to you. 09:59:07 phao: That kind of wrong reasoning is itself part of why Lisp is not more popular. It goes like this: since good things eventually become widespread, and Lisp is not widespread, there must be something wrong with it, so I won't use it. 10:00:28 o_O Holy crap. 10:00:32 This is crazy. 10:00:38 What is? 10:00:40 o_O Its like a magical feeling of understandingness. 10:00:47 phao: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/Essays/wrong.text 10:00:56 Why did I not look at this language earlier :D 10:00:58 Lisp is as good as it is because it is has not been corrupted by popularity :) 10:01:02 *elderK* dances in excitement 10:01:35 bah, can't type today 10:02:08 elderK: Where in TLOFLWC are you located? 10:02:20 er, TLOFTLWC 10:03:07 no,TLOTLWC, you get it, The Land Of The Long White Cloud. 10:03:08 cmm-: No cookies for you. 10:03:21 Dunedin, New Zealand. 10:03:23 South Island :) 10:03:37 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.142.141] has joined #lisp 10:03:49 elderK: Yeah, I know. I watched the penguns there and toured the central Otago wine district. 10:04:17 How did you like it? 10:04:20 And wherefore are you? 10:04:30 Whois says you are in france? 10:04:36 I am 10:05:22 I liked it very much. I spent the year mostly in Auckland, but occasionally went elsewhere like Wellington, Dunedin, Otago, etc. 10:06:07 :) 10:06:13 My family is here visiting from the United States atm. 10:06:15 They seem mostly bored. 10:06:30 I think they are into big city lights and whatnot more than quiet ruralish life. 10:06:35 But hey, each to their own :) 10:06:42 And Im glad you enjoyed your time down here. 10:07:17 I would like a quiet ruralish life. :} 10:08:36 What is stopping you? 10:09:20 Sometimes I think I'd be much happier without tehcnology, too. 10:09:37 That's crazy. 10:09:54 No stress. 10:10:12 Technology isn't stressful though. 10:10:16 I've contemplated putting my computer away and replacing it with my calculator, a pad of paper, and a pencil. 10:10:18 (only problem is that I'd probably end up building a turing machine in the end) 10:10:38 Quadrescence, I tried that awhile ago :) 10:10:51 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.167] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:10:53 Thats when I learned that I programmed more effectively, away from computers :D 10:10:54 Quadrescence, programming, at least for me, is mostly about that, actually. Ideally, you spend more time in your head than in your editor. 10:11:07 tic: I agree. 10:11:09 Exactly tic! 10:11:29 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.167] has joined #lisp 10:11:38 As far as I see, design is the important part. You tinker on the design and when thats done, programming is just implementing the blueprint in your head :) 10:11:40 I have a pad of paper next to my bed, in which I write pseudo-lisp before bed. :) 10:11:45 :D 10:13:35 dude, lisp macros sound /sweet/ 10:13:38 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.167] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:13:45 Oh and hey, could anyone help me understand "MAPCAR"? 10:13:50 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.167] has joined #lisp 10:13:53 It just says that it 'maps' to a list. 10:13:55 it's like map in Python. 10:14:02 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084222.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 10:14:06 Ive not used python - C-er here. 10:14:20 (mapcar (lambda (n) (* n 2)) '(1 2 3)) ;=> (2 4 6) 10:14:47 it maps a function on each successive CAR (first element) of the list. 10:14:53 elderK: pseudolisp: (mapcar sin(x) (1 2 3)) => (sin(1) sin(2) sin(3)) 10:15:09 so, basically, its C++ foreach() 10:15:20 No idea what foreach() is though. 10:15:35 calls a function on successive elements. 10:15:40 elderK: I guess. 10:15:44 shrug :) 10:15:46 right. the operation is generally referred to as "map" in CS. 10:15:47 Thanks for clearing that up :) 10:15:49 I click now :) 10:15:49 What is the return value of foreach() ? 10:16:05 depends on T, doesn't it? 10:16:11 Aye. 10:16:15 What on earth is T ? 10:16:17 and hey, if CAR is the first element of the list. 10:16:19 Type? 10:16:19 templates is a sorry excuse for Lisp macros. 10:16:23 schme: the type I guess 10:16:23 can you use map on more than the first element? 10:16:31 C++ seems very confusing. 10:16:39 elderK: It applies to all elements 10:16:53 schme: it is very confusing :) 10:17:06 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:17:26 '(1 2 3) = a list of 3 rows, each with one column. 10:17:29 Atleast, as I see it in my brain. 10:17:32 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 10:17:33 elderK: (1 2 3) ==> (1 . (2 . (3 . NIL))). mapcar applies a function to the furst element of each sublist 10:17:38 could you not have something like, 10:17:55 '('(1 2 3) '(2 3 1) '(3 1 2)) 10:17:57 elderK: 3 rows one column? I just see it as a list. 10:17:59 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:18:13 elderK, no, (list 1 2 3) is short for (cons 1 (cons 2 (cons 3 nil))) 10:18:32 cons means allocate a cell and cram it with 1, 2, or 3? 10:18:34 elderK: You can have '((1 2 3) (2 3 1) (3 1 2)) ? 10:18:35 elderK, '((1 2 3) (2 3 1) (3 1 2)) is a list of three lists. sure. What do you want it for? 10:18:38 and then you terminate the list with nil ? 10:18:47 Yes. It's called a "proper list" 10:18:52 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:18:54 but this is probably better explained in PCL.a 10:19:01 elderK: It's best not to think of "allocation" and "arrays" and such, honestly. 10:19:15 Aye :) 10:19:17 Unless you're, of course, using arrays. 10:19:22 Old habits are hard to unlearn. 10:19:23 schme: Well yeah 10:19:31 Thats what I like about Lisp and Forth - they require you to change mental gears, as it were. 10:19:43 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.240.167] has joined #lisp 10:19:48 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.167] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:20:21 elderK: I think I'd say just the same for C++. 10:20:34 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:20:41 :) 10:20:43 schme: C++ doesn't make you think differently. :( 10:20:57 (Unless you're doing template metaprogramming, then maybe) 10:20:57 Hmm.. I thought it was different. 10:21:39 That sounds odd though. I know C makes me think different, so I imagined C++ would twist it somehow more :) 10:22:02 schme: Well it's definitely different than C. 10:22:10 That's great! 10:22:13 schme, other than "oh I wish I had multimethods and gf's"? 10:22:24 tic: I have no idea. 10:22:39 schme, rethorical question. ;) 10:22:44 Oh ok. 10:23:01 I seldom miss multimethods and gf's when I poke around other languages than CL though. 10:23:06 So I dunno. 10:23:11 maybe I'll try that C++ when I get old. 10:23:24 So how about that lisp, huh? 10:23:36 nomnomnom /me eats a lisp compiler. 10:23:38 modern c++ is about four different languages and at least two of them are much, much different from c 10:23:46 That's cool. 10:24:01 schme: It's actually not all that cool. ._. 10:24:07 schme, cool? 10:24:15 Ya I like variety. 10:24:17 C++ is a giant toolbox of languages. 10:24:22 you use the one that fits your needs. 10:24:23 hehe, IMO that is not acceptable for a standarized language 10:24:24 right, locklace ? 10:24:30 C++ is a giant toolbox of messy code. 10:24:35 I mean, for any language 10:24:47 yep, because too many people to not understand how all the tools relate :P it seems, at least. 10:25:14 elderK, C++ is just not "done" yet, they didn't get it at first 10:25:21 so they're trying to "fix" the language 10:25:28 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.167] has joined #lisp 10:25:29 Isn't that normal though? 10:25:29 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.240.167] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 10:25:36 and it made it enourmous, but no ones follows it strictly 10:25:39 CL is supposedly not done yet either. 10:25:42 schme, no 10:25:52 Seems like natural progress to me. 10:25:53 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4b35.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 10:26:04 schme: It's a little different than progress in C++'s case. 10:26:23 You can't even initialize a vector with values, which they are adding into the next standard. 10:26:30 Actually I seem to see the fixering and progress everywhere. 10:26:31 if you think c++ is a lot like c, look at (to pick one example): http://svn.boost.org/svn/boost/trunk/libs/spirit/phoenix/doc/html/index.html 10:26:33 well schme I don't know about CL, I can't say 10:26:35 Quadrescence: Well that's fixering. 10:26:57 phao: ok. So take python, or haskell, or whatnot. 10:27:00 -!- ejs [n=eugen@93-176-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 10:27:16 Python added "with" in 2.5. You don't have to wait for a new release of Lisp to do that. 10:27:19 or scheme for that matter. 10:27:31 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 10:27:33 schme, well, I know C and ShellScript, those are simple programming languages, but both are standarized 10:27:37 tic: That's not my point. My point is that it is normal that the standard changes and evolves. 10:27:42 and every implementation of those I've ssen you can use the standard. 10:27:52 is 'collecting' a keyword to say not nil? 10:27:55 ie: 10:27:59 Yet there are new standards of C every now and then? 10:28:03 (loop while fields collecting (some_fun)) 10:28:11 schme, I think that is "be done". 10:28:21 schme, I'm talking about ANSI C 10:28:34 which one of them? 10:28:39 there are, yes, new standards 10:28:41 elderK: Collecting is just as it sounds. :> 10:28:44 but there is one everyone follows 10:28:47 Whats wrong with ANSI C? :P 10:28:50 "everyone" 10:28:59 C89 C99 ? 10:29:02 When I code in C, im strict C89. 10:29:21 ermm.... nope. it's hard to come across a real-life example of C-code that doesn't use any compiler/stdlib extensions 10:29:24 schme, c89 10:29:39 So yet a lot of people use C99 things like inlining etc. 10:29:53 but that is their choise 10:30:04 choice* 10:30:04 you can write a C that "is done" 10:30:05 Well of course. It is their choice which python standard they use too. 10:30:13 -!- skrit [n=skrit@cpe-76-88-49-7.san.res.rr.com] has quit [] 10:30:14 or which scheme standard, or c++ standard. 10:30:15 you can't do that in C++, afaik 10:30:37 Sure you can. Just stick to whatever standard you want. 10:30:40 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:30:52 worst case scenario you can't find a compiler for your standard of choice, but you can write that. 10:30:57 Hun: I think it depends highly on teh programs needs. 10:31:08 You can easily write C89 compliant code, with zero use of extensions. 10:31:14 of course 10:31:15 But, if you need to do force packing and suchlike, 10:31:24 it's just that you don't see a lot of it. 10:31:25 schme, 10:31:25 then you are kind of screwed unless you are clever :P 10:31:35 And like, align your members smart. 10:31:38 And hun, aye, you are right 10:31:42 there are, almost sure, 2 c++ standards, or 1 standards and 1 revision of it 10:31:50 phao: That's great. 10:31:52 and ,@ is cool :D 10:31:59 schme, in C 10:31:59 phao: There's atleast 6 scheme standards 10:32:09 phao: So C++ seems to be lagging behind. 10:32:11 you have the standard called c89 10:32:17 you can expect most implementations following it 10:32:22 and it's easy with C. try finding real portable c++ (including all that template-stuff. and without using a lot of cpp to define around compiler bugs ;) 10:32:22 schme: C++ is very, very, very big. 10:32:36 you can't expect most implementation following C++ standards fully 10:32:38 phao: Sure. 10:32:58 so you may pickup c89 and pickup an implementation and write strict c89 code, theen change implementaiton 10:33:03 your code will be compatible 10:33:09 in C++ you probably can't do that. 10:33:11 phao: So take scheme. you have one standard, a few revisions. You can't really expect any compiler to actually support the latest revision. Seems the same to me. 10:33:24 schme, Quadrescence said it 10:33:29 So. 10:33:32 What you are saying is. 10:33:37 Aye, C++ /is/ //really// big. 10:33:42 scheme is minimalist 10:33:46 if you write c++ following the standard, and you have a compiler supporting the standard, then it is no problem. 10:33:47 C++ is not 10:33:51 I fail to see the difference from. 10:33:57 if you write c following the standard, and you have a compiler supporting the standard, then it is no problem. 10:34:04 I'd not compare both 10:34:28 schme, there is no compiler of C++ following the standard fully 10:34:38 Well. You can't really blame C++ for that. 10:34:55 everything that makes it possible to write C++ standard code is a standard C++ implementation, there are 0 of those 10:35:08 Sure. 10:35:14 schme, I don't know if it's fare or not, but it'd blame it yes. 10:35:21 schme: Also, somewhat irrelevant, but it's said that C++ is impossible to "master". C is a small language, and can be mastered and whatnot. 10:35:23 s/fare/fair 10:35:35 and because C++ compiler implementors obviously are lazy ass people who can't get around to implementing a proper compiler that supports the official standard.. one should stop developing the language? 10:35:40 for certain values of mastering. 10:35:41 Also, the C++ standard also has a lot of "let the compiler vendor choose this" 10:35:43 hehehe 10:35:49 Well.. 10:35:53 So does the CL standard ;) 10:35:54 -!- mhoelzl [n=tc@dslb-088-066-126-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 10:36:12 schme: I know the CL standard has them. 10:36:26 But still. 10:36:37 schme, well man 10:36:43 C++ had its creation 10:36:44 My point is that I think that languages change and develope over time is a good and normal thing. 10:36:51 long ago 10:36:58 and some implementations came up, those are still up. 10:37:10 C++ people keep adding things to the standards 10:37:17 Ok. 10:37:22 that is not something good to implementation coders 10:37:35 show me a single one that does not. 10:37:38 I have no idea how the ratification of the standard works, but if a lot of things gets added a lot of the time.. seems good in my book. 10:37:44 in ANY standardized language 10:38:29 Hun, not in the amount that C++ did 10:38:36 Maybe they just need to change the ratification process. 10:38:39 that's more or less the point of abstraction. you can't include everything into the standard (though CL had a good try) 10:38:40 when C was standarized, things just got organized 10:38:46 a FEW (very few) was added 10:39:08 so for implementation coders, it was easy to make something agreeing to that. 10:39:10 and even this is not implemented in all compilers, given 9 years 10:40:16 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 10:40:16 Lazy ass people I tells ya :) 10:40:24 if i need something besides the standard (and i need that stuff all the time), i'm very happy that my implementor helped me before i even told him about my problem 10:40:37 by extending the compiler or including extra libs 10:40:46 so... what was the original problem? 10:40:50 Well. 10:40:55 C++ people keep changing the language, some vendors, to fill gaps the stardard might have (or had), ship some implementation-specific features, etc 10:41:05 It seems that Quadrescence and phao think it is a problem that languages evolve. 10:41:05 all hail DEFMACRO 10:41:13 While I think it's quite normal. 10:41:15 there are some things that "Helped" the mess around C++ 10:41:18 schme: They are adding more than revising. 10:41:29 Quadrescence: ok. 10:41:38 Evolution of languages is fine, but, IMHO, C++ is not at all organized, nor is it very clean. 10:41:46 the standard, the implementation people, its way of "fixing things", etc. 10:41:48 Well I have no idea about that. 10:42:19 *stassats`* checks, whether he is in #lisp 10:42:19 what's the matter with being clean? that stuff doesn't work that well outside of academia 10:42:27 I see SBCL doing a lot of things to fill the gaps in the CL standard. Threads and the MOP I like :) 10:42:27 schme, imagine, what is better 10:42:46 getting a disease and then curing it, or not getting it at all? 10:42:53 C++ is trying to cure 10:42:59 phao: What disease? 10:43:08 it like started wrong, so it's hard to get it right now 10:43:11 it's easy. find an omniscient being, let him predict all possible problems and spec your language not to run into any of them. implement and call it final then 10:43:12 phao: I have no idea how we got into all this. 10:43:16 schme, a very bad one :) 10:43:21 Hun: A standard should be organized and clean I think. Leave it to the implementors to make things messier. 10:43:31 schme, nor do I 10:43:38 -!- xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:43:43 phao: The discussion, as far as I understand, is you and Quadrescence advocating that one should design a language, implement it, and then never change anything. While I'm for evolution over time. 10:43:59 schme: That was not what I advocated. 10:44:01 i view standards as a way of documenting what everybody is doing (which is likely wrong, but a neat idea) 10:44:01 Now I need a laundry run. 10:44:15 nor me. 10:44:15 Quadrescence: Well it sure looked to it when I read the text scrolling by. 10:44:32 I'm just talking about why no implementation really follows C++'s standard 10:44:40 Huh. 10:44:43 Hun: I think a standard is a way to organize things so everyone is on the "same page" 10:44:45 That's not at all what I was talking about. 10:44:53 changes are good, but if you get to the point 10:45:00 I have no idea about C++. 10:45:02 now laundry :) 10:45:06 which never works as people tend to flip pages all the time 10:45:12 that C++ got, I doubt something good is happening there. 10:45:25 Hun: I think C did quite well. 10:45:26 because they're busy getting things done. syncing the standard takes a long long time 10:45:48 C has pretty limited scope, so that worked quite well 10:46:16 not that it is limited, but 10:46:20 c is "worse is better" 10:46:21 nice little language with ugly syntax, but easy to compil. 10:46:21 you have to write much to say just a few 10:46:26 s/say/mean 10:46:42 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:46:43 don't get me started about turing. that's besides the point 10:46:53 Hun: Hahaha 10:47:00 but anyway, why are you guys discussing all those strange languages here? 10:47:11 stassats`: you can implement them as macros :) 10:47:20 having a DSL for bit-fiddling can be useful 10:47:26 stassats`: To eventually come about saying that CL is the best choice. :D 10:47:42 it is not. not always at least ;) 10:47:42 Quadrescence: i knew that in advance 10:47:46 Hey guys, out of curiosity, 10:47:50 what kind of runtime does CL need? 10:47:57 depends. 10:48:03 would it be possible to build a CL program - compile it down, and have it freestanding? 10:48:11 -!- neighb0rs [n=miles@c-76-102-28-20.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:48:13 If so, I might start using this as one of my primary languages. 10:48:13 :) 10:48:16 You've sold me. 10:48:17 :P:) 10:48:33 *elderK* buys coffee for all; the universal hacker gesture of 'thanks' 10:48:33 :) 10:48:49 about every implementation can compile stuff to a single (more or less big) binary that can be run standalone 10:48:53 Hun: There are some places where CL isn't appropriate -- like 'systems programming" or very low-level stuff. At least in my opinion. 10:48:56 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:49:12 elderK: I know nothing about compiling and lisp has sold me. 10:49:16 elderK, for SBCL: http://mikael.jansson.be/journal/2008/03/freezing-lisp-in-time 10:49:18 define very low level stuff 10:49:26 Quadrescence, don't know about CL, but I've heard of something called lisp machines, and there people wrote OSes using lisp 10:49:33 when i have to do that, i usually write directly in assembler 10:49:46 Memory allocations, etc. 10:49:51 IO 10:49:54 elderK, also, SBCL always compiles down to machine code. What you meant was probably "bundle the runtime with the Lisp image" 10:49:55 it seems that those "lisp machines" were pretty decent 10:49:56 Anything that requires OS support. 10:49:56 mhoelzl [n=tc@dslb-088-066-126-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:00 phao: Yep. Genera 10:50:03 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 10:50:08 minion: tell elderK about executables 10:50:09 elderK: look at executables: creating executables: Newcomers to Lisp often ask how to "create an executable" from their Lisp program. http://www.cliki.net/creating%20executables 10:50:17 Well, aye, it directly understand the runtime itself and seperate it, if possible. 10:50:19 elderK: what's the problem? shove some pointer to the registers and do an int 80 10:50:20 I have Open Genera somewhere on my machine. :D 10:50:22 Quadrescence, do you know if it's possible to write an OS in CL? 10:50:25 CL ---> compilation ---> native assembly. 10:50:31 why shouldn't cl be able to do that? 10:50:38 phao: "Genera" is an OS. :) 10:50:55 writen in CL? 10:50:55 (load-reg eax 1) (load-reg ebx 0) (int #x80) 10:50:57 phao: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Genera_(operating_system) 10:50:58 thanks minion 10:50:59 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 10:51:19 Is minion a bot or a real person? :P 10:51:19 which is an raw exit(0) on x86-linux 10:51:22 bot 10:51:27 :) 10:51:34 Hun, I don't know hun, I don't know CL 10:51:55 minion: what does ELDERK stand for? 10:51:55 Exophagous Levigable Dumetose Enwallow Recommender Kenareh 10:51:57 minion: are you a bot? 10:51:59 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 10:52:06 that line above is clearly pure lisp, though not included in the standard. you can easily build that as a library 10:52:23 and do everything I would call low-level programming. 10:52:44 minion: you're a machine! 10:52:44 what's up? 10:52:59 Hun, so I can write both low and high level in CL? 10:53:03 of course. 10:53:13 phao: http://rafb.net/p/qqDK9356.html 10:53:18 for certain values of `you', at least 10:53:41 there's usually an implementation defined way for including raw assembly 10:54:28 I should try installing open genera on this system. :D 10:54:53 Except I don't think I can. :> 10:55:27 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:05 Quadrescence, what is that paste about? 10:57:00 phao: Hah, I pasted the ls -R og my open genera directory. 10:57:17 Well, say... freestanding binary. 10:57:25 you would not want /any/ runtime unless you provided it yourself. 10:57:35 which means, youd use only the functionality of lisp that could be compiled down. 10:57:39 elderK, you need a runtime for Lisp. Memory allocation and such. 10:57:49 why not provide the allocators yourslef, in lisp? :P 10:58:02 it is very inconvenient to rewrite libc. 10:58:05 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:58:10 minion: tell elderK about movitz 10:58:10 the gain is too small. 10:58:11 elderK: direct your attention towards movitz: Movitz is a Common Lisp implementation that targets the x86 PC architecture "on-the-metal". http://www.cliki.net/movitz 10:58:14 I mean, if the lisp is compiled down to native code, why would you even require allocation? 10:58:23 this language is kinda surprising me :) 10:58:25 elderK, because you need to interact with the operating system. 10:58:34 yes, the OS. 10:58:47 unless of course, you are writing /freestanding/ code, which is meant to be completely independent of any host. 10:58:48 How do you allocate memory? 10:58:58 Yes. That is called an operating system, see Movitz. 10:59:02 You wouldnt until your allocator was initialized and operating. 10:59:10 Aye. 10:59:50 runtime is not equivalent to virtual machine. 10:59:53 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.167] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:01:00 xan_ [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:06:54 in my understanding, a runtime is what adds support to the compiled code, so that it can function. 11:06:54 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:07:13 if that compiled code, has been written in such a way where none of the runtime itself is used. 11:07:18 then you are freestanding. 11:07:19 is CPU a runtime? 11:07:31 ie, C without using any allocation, io, unless you provide all of that yourself. 11:07:59 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 11:07:59 then you're writing an OS. 11:08:20 but anyway, what are you /really/ asking here? 11:09:00 dabd [n=dabd@213.22.160.244] has joined #lisp 11:10:52 Is it possible to write an OS, in Lisp. 11:11:02 :P 11:11:42 elderK: Yes. 11:11:54 elderK, see the link on Movitz. 11:13:15 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 11:30:44 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAF1D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:32:25 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp145.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 11:37:24 Soulman__ [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 11:38:42 -!- Soulman [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:39:41 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 11:41:32 elderK: why wouldn't you need allocation in native code? 11:41:53 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 11:42:18 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:42:43 Hun: Its simply that Id rather write the allocator myself. 11:42:50 as opposed to using the one given by the CL runtime. 11:43:01 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:44:43 Now featuring all lower-case ASCII characters, and better kerning for small sizes: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/fonts.png 11:45:02 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p7217-ipbfp03wakayama.wakayama.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 11:48:29 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 11:49:54 tomask [n=user@c-d7e3e055.31-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 11:55:48 cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 11:59:45 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:05:48 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:06:27 ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:06:29 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:08:49 vasa [n=vasa@mm-200-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 12:09:21 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 12:09:57 vasa pasted "error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70876 12:10:14 anybody know why this error happens? 12:10:36 i use sbcl from svn and cl-dot for output generating 12:10:45 because there is no such file? 12:11:02 it try to open temporary file 12:11:18 but i have /tmp and can touch file in this directory] 12:13:49 -!- cads_ [n=cadsmack@c-71-56-62-166.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:14:46 it tries to do (sb-unix:sb-mkstemp "/tmp/.run-program-XXXXXX" #o0600) 12:15:21 Hey guys, its been really neat chatting with you all. 12:15:25 But, tis time for me to sleep. 12:15:29 :) Thank sfor your help :D 12:15:53 -!- elderK [n=k@218-101-117-16.dialup.clear.net.nz] has left #lisp 12:16:44 (sb-unix:sb-mkstemp "/tmp/.run-program-XXXXXX" #o0600) 12:16:44 NIL 12:16:44 2 12:16:52 stassats`=> its ok 12:17:03 vasa: no it isn't 12:17:29 stassats`=> why? 12:17:41 (SB-EXT:RUN-PROGRAM "/usr/bin/dot" '("-Tpng" "-o" "sample.png")) 12:17:41 # 12:18:01 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:57 vasa: sb-unix:sb-mkstemp should return as first value file descriptor, and filename as second 12:19:52 ok, i try to upgrade my sbcl 12:19:59 *update 12:20:06 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 12:21:20 what OS are you running? 12:22:14 gentoo 12:22:20 linux 12:31:44 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:37:32 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:40:49 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-127-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:41:49 tomask` [n=user@c-d7e3e055.31-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 12:42:49 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:43:19 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:45:17 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:47:11 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 12:47:12 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:47:51 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p7217-ipbfp03wakayama.wakayama.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:48:02 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p7217-ipbfp03wakayama.wakayama.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:48:45 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf77d.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 12:48:55 -!- tomask [n=user@c-d7e3e055.31-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:49:06 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:49:30 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C256.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:41 H4ns2 [n=Hans@p57BBA625.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:53:28 -!- tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:53:54 tayssir [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has joined #lisp 12:54:13 tayssir` [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:54:20 -!- tomask` is now known as tomask 12:55:16 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb4b35.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:55:52 doxtor [i=mitja@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 12:56:33 -!- H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB9A94.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:58:27 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-19-242.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 13:10:08 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:11:41 adeht: Are you there? 13:14:43 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 13:15:55 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p7217-ipbfp03wakayama.wakayama.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:18:16 *attila_lendvai* wonders why :sb-executable exports a copy-stream 13:21:17 mulligan [n=user@e178008056.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 13:21:21 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:22:05 attila_lendvai: I assume it would neither be a problem for you to depend on cl-fad? 13:25:40 *attila_lendvai* answers the mail 13:26:56 -!- tomask [n=user@c-d7e3e055.31-4-64736c11.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:31:14 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:32:52 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:38:17 Jeff Shrager's responses to The Road to Lisp Survey: "I would leave computing before I would leave Lisp." 13:38:43 ok 13:38:52 Leaving computing for a year or three every now and then is quite nice though. 13:39:21 Hehe, "for a year or three" 13:39:28 Yes. 13:40:05 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:40:41 Like most other things, no? 13:40:48 Maybe. 13:41:42 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 13:42:22 Think of all the time you could use for other things ;) 13:42:28 tcr: mail sent. my preference is to keep it, but i wouldn't mind too much if it moved... i'm too used to a duplicates.lisp file per project for occasions when there's some headache with something... :) 13:42:37 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:45:21 schme_: Like what? (besides sex) 13:46:05 Quadrescence: Collecting money for starving children, going for a bike ride through India, climbing some mountains, building a house. 13:46:15 Quadrescence: I think the list there pretty much goes on forever. 13:46:24 schme_: But you can just do that in lisp. 13:46:32 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084222.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:46:36 -!- tayssir [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:46:41 Ah no, you can't. 13:46:46 But good try ;) 13:54:25 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:55:07 I think I'll take break. I have done 8 characters today. Now with a few capital letters: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/fonts.png 13:58:21 beach: Looking good. 13:58:38 Quadrescence: Thanks! 13:59:06 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:00:23 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 14:00:32 That font could look so sexy italicized (and I am not being sarcastic). 14:02:01 my life goals would align so much nicer if lisp helped me collect money for starving children... 14:02:15 i won't make a joke about "garbage collection" 14:02:18 that would be mean 14:03:09 Quadrescence: would just slanted be OK? 14:03:55 'cause that should not be hard to do. 14:04:15 beach: No. I think it should be stylized 14:04:33 definitely a lot more work, but it also makes the font a whole lot better. 14:04:54 I believe you. 14:06:36 You have a "curvy" theme going on with it, and so, for example 14:06:43 compare the italif 'f' here: http://www.bitstream.com/font_rendering/images/tv_pack/zurich_italic.gif 14:06:55 with the one here: http://www.bitstream.com/font_rendering/images/tv_pack/lettergothic_italic.gif 14:07:05 minion: chant to Quadrescence 14:07:05 Quadrescence: MORE WORK 14:07:35 *Quadrescence* huggles locklace. 14:07:48 Quadrescence: yeah, I see what you mean. 14:08:04 -!- phao [n=phao@20158130203.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:08:14 beach: The second one would be more appropriate for your font. It can be "curvy" and whatever, I guess. 14:08:30 right. 14:11:44 beach: Your font reminds me a lot of Calibri: http://pc-help-guide.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/calibri.jpg 14:11:55 They (MS) did a good job with the italics. 14:12:57 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:13:17 tayssir [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has joined #lisp 14:17:06 Quadrescence: yeah, the lower-case characters are very similar. 14:17:29 malu__ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf77d.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:18:38 Theirs have a more pronounced bend on the f, t, and j than mine. 14:18:46 Yeah. 14:19:08 Your font's 'y' is far superior. 14:19:30 I agree. 14:19:35 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:20:08 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:54 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:21:03 Just one problem with those fonts. They're not monospace :) 14:21:09 But good work there, beach ! 14:21:39 schme_: Thanks! I'll work on a monospace font at some point. 14:21:52 Horray! 14:21:59 *schme_* goes to smoke to celebrate. 14:27:30 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084222.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 14:27:52 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-67cb0652dca4e89b] has joined #lisp 14:27:53 Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:45 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf77d.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:58 ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-138-9-9.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:34:52 phao [n=phao@20158130203.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 14:37:13 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.142.141] has quit ["Bye guys, good night!"] 14:42:10 attila_lendvai: Did you send a copy to edi? 14:43:20 tcr: yes, i reply-all'd 14:44:22 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 14:48:12 -!- ivanst [i=ivans@78-1-144-216.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:49:06 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:28 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 14:50:06 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAF1D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:54:28 ^Chechen^ [i=_Chechen@chechen.kraslan.ru] has joined #lisp 14:54:33 -!- ^Chechen^ [i=_Chechen@chechen.kraslan.ru] has left #lisp 14:58:29 -!- ajhager [n=ajhager@cpe-66-61-162-243.indy.res.rr.com] has quit ["A way a lone a last a loved a long the..."] 15:08:25 -!- prip [n=_prip@host245-134-dynamic.42-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:09:57 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:16:37 -!- bulllp [n=user@159.226.43.59] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:18:29 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 15:23:39 pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 15:24:41 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:33:25 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:18 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:00 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:36:05 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:06 -!- ivarref [n=ivarref@77.17.144.80.tmi.telenormobil.no] has quit [] 15:42:57 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx08721.chantva.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:15 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has joined #lisp 15:48:20 -!- pwned [n=epitaph@78.176.120.56] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:48:27 pwned_ [n=epitaph@78.176.101.9] has joined #lisp 15:49:22 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has left #lisp 15:49:30 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 15:57:10 -!- gaja is now known as hto 15:58:09 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp145.studby.uio.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:58:12 nurv101 [n=askmefor@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 15:58:12 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 15:58:20 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:16 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:00:33 Good afternoon. 16:00:40 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 16:02:49 good morning 16:03:00 aloha 16:03:01 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 16:03:47 afternoon. 16:03:54 -!- hto is now known as gaja 16:04:27 beach: what about proposing xcvb as a student project? 16:06:44 Fare: I would have to read up on the design to see what it is about. 16:07:10 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-6084e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["leaving"] 16:07:24 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-6084e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:07:39 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-6084e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 16:09:06 note that the basics of xcvb are there. missing pieces are: (1) fixing the sorting algorithm (use toposort), (2) better user interface, (3) better support for generated files, and in general a better rule language, (4) dependency-building based on crypto checksum, (5) support for distributed compilation (ccache/distcc like) 16:09:40 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-6084e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:10:06 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-6084e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 16:10:31 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-6084e555.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:10:36 -!- a-s [n=user@92.80.109.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:11:55 I thought you had a internee working on it? 16:12:20 Fare: isn't (4) theoretically fragile, or have the world relaxed about it after seeing that git works ok? 16:12:56 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:13:18 cmm-: (a) you can use a better checksum algorithm if you think that SHA1 is broken (which it is) 16:13:20 *tic* trusts git. 16:13:42 kidd1 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:49 (b) with a good enough checksum algorithm, you may rather start worrying about cosmic rays changing bits in your computer 16:14:08 point 16:14:10 if so, install ECC memory. :) 16:14:11 Fare: It looks like an interesting programming project, but I don't think I would be a good client for it. Do you want to suggest it yourself? 16:14:41 beach: can u-bordeaux accept remotely-managed student projects??? 16:15:10 Fare: I don't know. We can try it and see what the person in charge says. 16:15:39 isn't that, like, you? :) 16:16:12 Me? No. I am one of the many teachers, but I am not in charge. That's a person named Philippe Narbel. 16:16:30 beach: I'll update my project proposal page 16:16:38 with something regarding xcvb (in english) 16:17:03 Fare: there is a form you should fill in, and then send the URL to Narbel. I'll put a copy of the form on my web page. Hold on... 16:17:24 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0F5C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:33 wol [n=wol@c-98-207-129-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:45 Fare: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/pdp.html 16:21:04 Send URL to narbel [at] labri.fr 16:21:53 you I put your names or mine, for contact? 16:22:36 Put both. 16:22:43 ok 16:23:08 I'll send the result to you. 16:23:38 Fare: you could, but in particular, you should make it available on some website and send the URL to Narbel. 16:24:15 beach: pjb's reader is quite ok. The biggest obstacle is that it's currently licensed as GPL. 16:24:45 tcr: That's one thing, but it also doesn't use a good algorithm for reading floating point. 16:25:40 That can be changed. :) I think it's written very readable. 16:26:59 tcr: there is an article by William Clinger called "How to read floating point numbers accurately". 16:28:01 Your read.lisp stub is fascinating (using CHANGE-CLASS to do a state transition is mind-boggling), but I don't think that OOP is the appropriate tool to use. 16:28:17 tcr: You are probably right. 16:28:51 tcr: It was an attempt to make it extensible, but I am not particularly proud of the result. 16:33:17 Sometimes making something extensible can be very difficult. In such a case, I think there's a weaker goal to strive for: export enough stuff to make it possible for a user to implement his own stuff. 16:34:11 The Common Lisp standard lacks GET-CHARACTER-SYNTAX; if something like that was there, writing READ in portable code would be very easy. 16:34:48 READ is just a state machine around character syntaxes. 16:34:59 Sounds right. 16:35:58 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C5F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:53 tcr: as long as you're providing non-std features, you might as well abandon READ 16:42:04 and use extensible grammars 16:42:11 a la PLT 16:42:26 or a la vpri 16:44:26 elurin [n=user@81.213.203.169] has joined #lisp 16:44:32 Fare: are you aware of a discussion of those two approaches wrt READ i could look at? 16:45:26 I wouldn't mind a more declarative approach. CL's reader is a very mechanical, stream-related process. 16:46:53 I don't think anyone has discussed READ in the last 20 years - it's obsolete technology 16:47:33 also, READ is not modular (but CL doesn't have a module system anyway) 16:47:53 I don't know what you mean with "discussed", but I agree. 16:47:54 Fare: I think providing a standard reader with some extra features that client code can ignore has its advantages. But extensible parserers are nice too. I wonder whether they could be made to work together, i.e., whether one could make an extensible parser framework have an interface that looks like that of the reader. 16:48:38 I think that READ was good for its time, and I appreciate the extensibility -- it's just a very bad starting point for further hacking. 16:48:56 beach: I would expect slava's Factor to have such a framework. 16:49:13 tcr: URL? 16:49:38 if you really want to provide some extensible parsing system, by definition it won't be standard, and there's no gain whatsoever trying to reuse the READ api for it. 16:49:50 beach: search video.google.com for factor, he gave a good talk about it. 16:50:20 beach: what do you think of OMeta? 16:50:29 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:40 tcr: have a look at OMeta, too 16:50:43 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 16:50:51 Fare: I don't think I know about it. 16:51:18 beach: I could have wording nitpicks on your essay on usefulness of CS education 16:51:40 and I would also add a course on management of large projects... 16:52:00 Fare: Do I have such an essay? 16:52:09 YOU have one 16:52:26 http://dept-info.labri.u-bordeaux.fr/~strandh/Essays/utilite.html 16:52:37 Hey, nice! 16:52:45 ??? 16:52:46 josemanuel [n=josemanu@156.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:53:06 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:53:42 Wrote it recently too! Gee, my memory is getting worse and worse. 16:53:46 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@156.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 16:54:46 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:55:04 benny [n=benny@i577A09A8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 16:55:39 Fare: I see spelling errors as well, but please send me your remarks. 16:56:52 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 17:00:42 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx08721.chantva.wayport.net] has quit [] 17:01:04 beach, in what way do you plan princ-to-string and format to overlap? 17:01:36 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-127-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:01:59 tic: in general, the format directive would call the function. 17:02:14 beach, except for some cases where it doesn't, right? ;) 17:02:38 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-127-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:02 *tic* has a look at what p-t-s specializes on 17:03:15 tic: yeah, either because of oversight on my part, or because no corresponding low-level function exists. 17:03:53 beach, the latter most likely. 17:05:29 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:05:54 How -is- princ-to-string implemented anyway? a typecase on all defined types? 17:06:34 a shame princ-to-string has floating-point printing support, but no way to control it. It seems like the definition itself has some strange overlapping. Or am I confused here? 17:06:41 s/definition/spec/ 17:06:50 tic: don't you think it calls print-object? 17:07:25 beach, hrm. yes, that is obviously more likely. 17:08:36 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.29] has joined #lisp 17:08:55 and now for some MOP wizardry: how do I get a list of methods specialized on a gf? 17:09:35 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178008056.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:10:32 ah, here we go. generic-function-methods. 17:12:41 tic: what do you need it for? 17:13:25 beach, to find out if your theory is correct: if princ-to-string uses print-object internally, and thus print-object would be specialized on all types. 17:14:19 MrTree [n=marc@ip-62-143-190-93.unitymediagroup.de] has joined #lisp 17:14:35 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:14:37 p-o is specialized on t, so maybe it has some internal dispatching, because I can't find float. Or, p-t-s might special-case things. 17:15:47 oh well. at least now I know how to get at the methods of a gf. yay. 17:17:01 -!- MrTree [n=marc@ip-62-143-190-93.unitymediagroup.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:21:14 pwned [n=epitaph@78.176.99.185] has joined #lisp 17:21:18 -!- pwned_ [n=epitaph@78.176.101.9] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:23:21 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:23:35 how can I get a gf? 17:23:51 Fare, you go to pubs, usually. 17:25:33 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 17:25:52 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-57-125.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 17:26:08 good aftermorn 17:26:25 hello fusss 17:27:57 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:32:05 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-157.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:33:23 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-67cb0652dca4e89b] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 17:33:29 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:35:29 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.181.95] has joined #lisp 17:36:11 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-56-127.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 17:36:28 Eelis [i=eelis@figo.xzibition.com] has joined #lisp 17:37:21 -!- tayssir [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:37:30 the common lisp error handling scheme looks like continuations to me 17:37:56 i'm not well-versed in lisp, but i was looking at the wikipedia page for treesort, and it looks to me like the lisp implementation it gives removes duplicate elements. can anyone confirm? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Treesort 17:38:30 Eelis, (that's scheme) I'll have a look. 17:38:37 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.202.64] has joined #lisp 17:39:09 mbac: you can think of it in terms of continuations, but they are use-once LIFO continuations 17:39:48 (that can cause great grief if you try to cheat) 17:40:13 hmm 17:40:25 it's going to take me some cycles to figure out what that means 17:40:30 i'll get back to you in a few days ;) 17:40:53 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 17:40:55 it just means that most CLs just use a control stack like most other languages. 17:40:56 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:41:37 that CL doesn't mandate more than that, and so far as I know, no CL offers full continuations. 17:41:57 Now, if you layer arnesi or screamer on top of CL... 17:41:59 full continuations can't be stack-based? 17:42:27 mbac: no. See your usual Scheme tricks with continuations 17:42:32 Eelis: It's (weirdly written) scheme, but yes, looks like it. I'm fairly certain the naive listify messes with the complexity too. 17:42:43 or read Andrew Appel's Compiling with Continuations 17:42:57 here be dragons! 17:43:00 pkhuong: ok. would you agree that a sorting function would normally be expected to produce a permutation of the input, and that the implementation given is therefore faulty? 17:43:17 Eelis: for sure. 17:43:17 Eelis: it's a wiki... you can fix it! 17:43:29 Fare: i could fix it, but then i'd write it in Haskell :) 17:43:38 well, then do! 17:43:45 Eelis: as long as you make it clearer than the current version. 17:43:48 and you'd write it entirely in the type system, too 17:44:03 i figured it'd be polite to give some lisp people a chance to fix it first :) but ok, i'll fix it later tonight, in Haskell. 17:44:04 -!- mhoelzl [n=tc@dslb-088-066-126-119.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:04 do full continuations demand some kind of directed acyclic graph? 17:44:33 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.202.64] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:44:34 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:44:35 mbac: why acyclic? 17:44:56 mbac: they demand some kind of ``trick'' on top of some LIFO stack. 17:44:59 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.202.64] has joined #lisp 17:45:31 I mean, if it's first-class continuations, then the heap is your graph, and it's only acyclic if you've got neither side-effects nor futures. 17:45:57 (where futures subsumes lazy evaluation) 17:46:13 i don't think programs can be directed non-acyclic graphs? 17:46:16 mhoelzl [n=tc@dslb-088-065-032-075.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:39 gimme lazy evaluation, I'll make a few... 17:46:44 :( 17:46:52 mbac: think away (non-recursively). 17:47:15 see i thought you'd say "why directed?" 17:47:16 mbac: see lazy Y combinators... 17:47:41 haha, so, like i said, i'll get back to you in a few days 17:47:47 mbac: the old lisp (1.6?) had an error signal mechanism which allowed code to throw an error which was caught by a catch up the call chain (non local exit) then the programmers "abused" the mechanism to implement their own control mechanism, and the current condition system was born :-) 17:47:47 mbac: continuations have indefinite extent, just like closures, they might be invoked anytime, and as such, they can't be kept in an stack that might unwind upon function returns. so they're stored in the heap 17:48:21 tayssir [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has joined #lisp 17:49:28 right, ok 17:50:48 mbac: do you understand closures? and why they usually can't be kept on a stack? 17:51:10 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:51:19 yes 17:51:22 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 17:51:40 well, continuations are closures that capture the state of your call graph 17:51:50 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:52:02 any state in your call graph becomes subject to heapification. 17:52:30 some scheme implementations try to heapify said state lazily 17:52:36 but that has a cost 17:53:05 if you had a good uniqueness type system, you could statically do it 17:53:29 or by keeping a one-bit reference count, you can do the same dynamically 17:53:53 (the one-bit refcount is a dynamic uniqueness type system) 17:54:33 heapificability is a hard constraint on your stack 17:54:42 see how squeak does it, for instance 17:55:13 (or the K-machine) 17:55:35 -!- mhoelzl [n=tc@dslb-088-065-032-075.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:55:44 this should keep me busy for at least the weekend, thank you! 17:56:23 i was in danger of spending it studying for a math exam 17:56:42 fixed frame size like Squeak or the K-machine do makes some things simpler (stack walking), other more complex (using lots of args and/or local variables) 17:56:58 mbac: we're champs here for helping you fail at math 17:57:18 call us anytime. 17:57:23 hahaha 17:57:56 about one-bit refcounts and much more, see the hbaker papers (notably CONS should not CONS) 17:58:16 there your whole next week goes away 17:59:50 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:04:22 mhoelzl [n=tc@dslb-088-065-032-075.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:33 -!- mhoelzl [n=tc@dslb-088-065-032-075.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 18:04:54 mhoelzl [n=tc@dslb-088-065-032-075.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:08 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:07:31 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2DEC5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:07:52 skrit [n=skrit@cpe-76-88-49-7.san.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:09:05 -!- yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10:14 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has quit [] 18:10:45 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 18:12:13 bobrown [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:02 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has joined #lisp 18:14:42 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:14:47 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has joined #lisp 18:17:01 danlei [n=user@pD9E2DEC5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:46 -!- puddingpimp [n=puddingp@gateway.quickcircuit.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:23:49 hey 18:23:58 what does define a programming language to be a functional one? 18:24:39 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.202.64] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 18:24:40 a language that encourages program organisation free of side effects is usually described that way. 18:24:41 I tend to think "not store state" which leads to "referential transparancy", but that's not the correct definition. 18:24:46 phao: depends who you ask. the bare minimum is being able to pass functions as arguments to other functions. 18:25:31 you can program functionally in CL, for instance, but it couldn't sensibly be called functional 18:25:47 some people, particularly the haskell-ish crowd, tend to roll in their well-defined static type system as part of functional programming. 18:26:04 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-132-156.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:10 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-56-127.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:26:23 Doc-Saintly [n=darkness@ip68-2-184-184.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:32 mrsolo_ [n=mrsolo@adsl-68-126-213-34.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:36 Morning/Afternoon all 18:26:40 mogunus: that's their own prejudice, though 18:26:47 rsynnott: oh, yeah. 18:26:59 that's just silly. that would disqualify the untyped lambda calculus. 18:27:08 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-56-127.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 18:27:14 never said I agreed with it :-) 18:28:05 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-101d36504565486d] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:28:08 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 18:28:28 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:29:01 hello Doc-Saintly 18:29:24 Doc-Saintly: new here? 18:29:41 new to here yes, but not really to lisp 18:29:51 Doc-Saintly: So what brings you to #lisp? 18:30:04 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:30:06 Mostly to see if its more active here than the last irc network i used to sit on ;) 18:30:09 -!- Eelis [i=eelis@figo.xzibition.com] has left #lisp 18:30:32 #lisp is rather large these days. I don't have any stats, but it seems to be growing as opposed to shrinking. 18:30:32 minion: chant to Doc-Saintly 18:30:32 Doc-Saintly: MORE ACTIVE 18:30:41 Doc-Saintly: #lisp is pretty active, even though there can be long periods when nobody feels like saying anything. 18:30:54 locklace, does minion pick out sentence parts? 18:31:02 it is also incredibly helpful. 18:31:07 tic: it looks for "more xxx". 18:31:16 (at least, such is my experience) 18:31:45 the discussions about SBCL internals do seem to have waned a bit lately, but perhaps that's just me projecting since I've been busy with other things 18:33:03 slyrus_: the channel has become somewhat less lbcl-centric 18:33:06 *sbcl 18:33:15 what with renewed popularity of openmcl and such 18:33:19 gzip4 [n=xxx@78.108.73.250] has joined #lisp 18:33:26 well i do a lot of AutoLISP, a variant of clisp 18:34:06 rsynnott: but also less focused on compiler details and more focused on userland stuff, IYAM. 18:34:06 Doc-Saintly: That's a strange description of AutoLISP. 18:34:20 Doc-Saintly: and CLISP is an implementation of Common Lisp. 18:34:20 hehe, well it has enough in common to be called LISP ;) 18:34:26 Doc-Saintly, usually, one refers to clisp as the implementation (cons.org) of the Common Lisp standard. 18:34:28 well i was being lazy and abbreviating 18:34:47 use "cl" it's even shorter 18:34:47 slyrus_: yep, probably 18:34:48 Doc-Saintly: we abbreviate Common Lisp as CL. 18:34:50 CL would be the proper abbrevation if you want to avoid confusion in the future. :) 18:35:47 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 18:35:48 autolisp isn't a cl variant, I don't think 18:35:56 (doesn't it predate cl?) 18:35:58 Doc-Saintly: it was also a strange description in that AutoLISP (or so I hear) is very far from Common Lisp. 18:36:30 (setq string (strcat "This " "is " " a" " string")) 18:36:42 I saw some code a while back; looked more similar to emacs lisp 18:36:51 clhs strcat 18:36:51 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for strcat. 18:36:58 See? 18:37:07 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 18:37:07 meow! 18:37:08 clhs concatenate 18:37:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_concat.htm 18:37:13 indeed, but. (cons a "123") -> ( a . "123") 18:37:16 *rsynnott* makes a strcat LispCat :P 18:37:29 er rather (cons 1 "123") -> (1 . "123") 18:37:36 rsynnott: is that like a CueCat, but less useless? 18:37:39 Doc-Saintly: nope, that would usually generate an "unbound variable" message. 18:37:50 no, more useless 18:38:21 i'm not saying they're the exact same, but what errors do you think i would get if i plugged that into a C++ compiler ;) 18:38:27 Doc-Saintly: Does AutoLISP have CLOS? 18:38:42 probably named as a diff command :\ dunno what it is though 18:38:44 Doc-Saintly, they both share s-exps as their main notation of syntax, but that doesn't really mean much. 18:38:56 the_unmaker [n=Administ@cpe-76-174-30-243.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 18:38:56 i've tried to stay away from CL because i think it will ruin AL for me 18:39:09 whats al? 18:39:13 Doc-Saintly: I think you may be right about that. 18:39:19 the_unmaker: AutoLisp I am guessing 18:39:28 Doc-Saintly: isn't that good? 18:39:28 Doc-Saintly: well you can implement a CL compatibility layer in AL. 18:39:29 i didn't want to say alisp ;) 18:39:31 Doc-Saintly: Common Lisp is standardized by ANSI. AutoLISP neither conforms to that standard, nor to a subset of it. 18:39:35 who knows if that is another distro :) 18:39:37 Doc-Saintly: Also, CL allows for subsets. 18:40:00 tcr, that may be, but when a language tries hard to look like a language, calls itself a version of it, i am kind enough to say it is a variant of it ;) 18:40:07 with usocket lib can one build client server apps in common lisp? 18:40:10 Doc-Saintly: does AutoLISP use static or dynamic scoping? 18:40:19 dynamic 18:40:20 pjb, it could conform to a subset, and then extending it? But I suppose there's a minimum definitoin of that subset, though? 18:40:26 Doc-Saintly: indeed, alisp is the name of one of the executables of Allegro CL. 18:40:28 Doc-Saintly: Hmm. 18:40:29 Doc-Saintly: not exactly, but executable in allegro common lisp is named "alisp" 18:40:36 tic: no minimum. 18:40:46 well i'm saying last time i tried to be lazy and abbreviate i got scolded ;) 18:40:49 tic: so you can write in emacs lisp, say, programs that are CL conformants. 18:40:49 pjb, so, as they both share CONS... ;) 18:40:56 Right. 18:40:59 Doc-Saintly: That's just silly. Syntax is not a very discriminating property of programming languages. 18:41:23 "Look, curly brackets! It's C!" 18:41:34 tcr so you're saying that its silly to say that because CL SOMEWHAT understands AL, and a C++ or any other compiler wouldn't know it at all, i am wrong in saying they're somewhat similar? 18:41:47 if the compiler recognizes it enough to say "thats kinda lisp, but not quite" then i say its alright to say its close to lisp 18:41:49 You didn't say they're somewhat similiar. 18:42:15 realy, a variation isn't something thats slightly different or "somewhat similar" to another object? 18:42:15 I guess the idea of using a subset of CL, is to be able to develop and debug a program with a Common Lisp implementation, and have it run in another environment. 18:42:21 Doc-Saintly: probably your best bet is to say that CL and AutoLISP are lexically similar. 18:42:39 well i think people here were bored and are choosing to pick apart a simple comment 18:42:52 Doc-Saintly: I think you meant to say that AutoLisp is a Lisp dialect. :) 18:42:57 pjb, wouldn't you end up with a CL compatibility layer in the end anyway? 18:43:11 *slyrus_* waits for somebody to write clim-cad 18:43:24 well if you know what i "meant" to say, why argue ;) 18:43:33 lemoinem_ [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:43:45 pkhuong_ [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:43:47 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:48 Even for languages syntactically and semantically different, it may be worthwhile to write an "emulator" in CL, and to develop a program with a CL implementation. Eventually, you translate the CL subset you used to the strange syntax and you get a working debugged program. 18:44:18 Doc-Saintly, we don't know, we guess! And, if you didn't mean that, we would have enlightened you, and another person would know more about Lisp. Either way, everybody wins! 18:44:32 tic: yes, it is better if you can write a CL compatibility layer rather. 18:45:19 ok, 2 days and a new macports tree later, I've got clim-gtkairo running-ish on the lappy 18:45:24 slyrus_: hasn't something along those lines actually been done? 18:45:25 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:45:29 -!- pkhuong_ is now known as pkhuong 18:45:29 pjb, re translating the CL subset: that's essentially how I'll be writing a C app I have in the queue. Turns out (orly?) that C is a bad choice for describing algorithms in. 18:45:35 pretty sure there was a major ZetaLisp CAD thing, anyway 18:46:36 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.121] has quit [] 18:48:15 i think a certain game and a certain cad platform have ruined me forever, i now look for all my applications to have an easily accessible programming interface >.< 18:48:30 Abuse? 18:48:42 Doc-Saintly: CL and emacs are for you. 18:49:08 well not all apps support them though :\ 18:49:19 Anyone knows why they chose Lisp to extend AutoCAD? 18:49:32 it's just 1 of 3 18:49:36 and probably because its easy ;) 18:50:00 they got AutoLisp, VBA, and what's the third? 18:50:01 it has AutoLISP, VB, and C++ extensions 18:50:16 meingbg: originally, it was lisp. 18:50:19 meingbg: at the time, they probably didn't have much choice 18:50:22 c++, really? through dynamic libs? 18:50:24 autocad's pretty old 18:50:32 the other languages came later, since some users are reticent to lisp. 18:50:43 mmm i dunno off the top of my head meingbg , i haven't done it much, but it's not like it's massive work arounds 18:50:54 the only problem is that the power has shifted from lisp to other languages... 18:50:59 they made some STUPID mistakes with lisp -.- 18:52:27 like what? I've been playing around with it a bit, but when I found somthing I though was stupid, I'd just assume it was cos I didn't understand how they were thinking... 18:53:06 well when you deal with an entity it has DXF codes, ( 0 . "INSERT" ) is dxf code 0 18:53:11 and it usually tells you the type of the object 18:53:35 well certain objects have multiple codes of the same number within a list, i.e. (40 . 1) (40 .2) etc. etc. and there is no command to remove / replace nth item in a list. 18:54:01 so you have to parse the entire list, remove the one you don't want or replace it, and put it into a new list, and replace the old list with the new one 18:54:02 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-e3db7a715c75fc48] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:21 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:54:36 Doc-Saintly: that's a good thing, funtionnal-programming-wise. 18:54:41 oh, that. Yeah, it looked weird at first, but I figured that since it's Lisp, you could shape it up yourself... 18:55:05 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 18:55:33 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:55:38 -!- lemoinem_ is now known as lemoinem 18:55:38 i suppose i don't understand how that could be a "good" thing. at least they provide a workaround, yes, but it needlessly complicates simple tasks 18:55:58 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-5fdcff7c320ec479] has joined #lisp 18:56:22 I wouldn't doubt it if it was faster to look at the DXF codes and write your own functions to manage the whole thing, than to, for example, learn an object system if they had made their own for AutoCAD. 18:56:32 this is for things which are actually drawn on the screen? 18:56:44 yes rsynnott 18:57:06 I can imagine it would make sense to use immutable structures in that case; that way they're re-drawn in one step when you replace the old list 18:57:14 well i think the dxf codes are great, but when they stack multiple's on the same number without a way to manage it 18:57:42 rsynnott: so you learn that the starting point for a line happens to be code 41 or whatever. no names. 18:57:45 back in the days of the early autocad, C++ just didn't exist 18:57:52 (or was not ready for primetime) 18:58:31 machines were smaller, and a lisp interpreter could fit in memory the way that a C++ compiler couldn't 18:58:36 Doc-Saintly: or can I programmatically get the DXF code for a certain property name? 18:58:54 they have the dxf codes listed out per item for each version of autocad 18:59:02 they'll say, ok for pline 0 means this, 1 means this, 2 means this etc. etc. 18:59:16 a lot of them are the same, i.e. 0 for object type, i think 10 for layer / color (i forget which) 18:59:24 -!- malu__ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf77d.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 18:59:33 Doc-Saintly: listed out, like... in their manual, or in some function i can call? 18:59:39 was released in 1982 18:59:46 so C++ didn't really exist at all 18:59:57 it's not in the manual but its a sepaarate resource 18:59:57 (or at least it was still wa weird Bell Labs internal thing) 19:00:15 so short of Smalltalk they probably didn't have much choice 19:01:02 i take it back. clim-gtkairo isn't working :) 19:01:39 I "upgraded" to the new XCode and XQuartz and something seems to have broken clim-gtkairo scroll boxes. the fonts work, however, which was my original problem. 19:02:50 what are you using gtk for? 19:04:41 -!- mhoelzl [n=tc@dslb-088-065-032-075.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:05:27 Does anyone here use UTF-8/Unicode for Lisp programming? Like writing an actual  instead of lambda? 19:06:27 meingbg: I use utf-8 for my sources. I don't use  instead of lambda, but I configure emacs to display  when I have lambda in the file. 19:06:48 (and similarly for the other greek letters). 19:07:47 so is CL best compared to something like Python or PERL that has quick development time with the exception that lisp is slightly lower level? 19:08:02 Doc-Saintly, CL is both higher and lower level at the same time. 19:08:09 Doc-Saintly: lisp is much more higher level than these languages. 19:08:15 yea, by "lower" i mean close to the ASM 19:08:18 closer* 19:08:33 Doc-Saintly: nobody writes lisp code close to assembler. 19:08:34 i think "higher" and "lower" should be changed when referring to programming languages, too many different meanings 19:08:57 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:00 pjb: So you can write lambda but look at it as ? 19:09:18 Soulsbane [n=Soulsban@dial-69-55-136-74.sofnet.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:19 meingbg: what does your name mean? My...? 19:09:23 meingbg: yes. 19:09:40 elderK [n=k@218-101-117-58.dialup.clear.net.nz] has joined #lisp 19:09:43 Mornin' folks. 19:10:15 Doc-Saintly: gbg is short of Gothenburg, my home town. Understand the prefix as you want. 19:10:29 ah hehe ;) 19:10:32 Doc-Saintly, Common Lisp compilers often produce native (i.e. machine) code as opposed to bytecode executing in a virtual machine. That makes it low-level. The high-level part is that it allows for programmability of the language itself through the use of e.g. macros. 19:11:06 yes, thats what i mean, high /low can refer to distance from ASM and also the features 19:11:33 pjb: I think some people do :) 19:11:40 the_unmaker: clim-gtkairo looks nicer than the clx backend 19:11:44 IMO 19:11:46 Kommen Sie aus Deutschland meingbg? 19:11:47 there's a lot of talk of second-guessing the compiler on this channel, sometimes 19:14:07 pjb: sometimes. 19:15:37 Doc-Saintly: Ich komme nicht aus Deutschland. I habe den Deutsche Sprache gestudiert nur zwei Jahren, aber jetzt kann Ich [nothing] erinnern. Gothenburg ist in West-Schweden. 19:16:09 #lisp-de or whatever. 19:16:56 Ah, aber Sie koennen mehr als mich daran erinnern. und Ich habe Deutsch view Jahren an der Schule gelernt. (nicts bedeutet nothing) 19:17:00 pkhuong: Where are you from? Native english speaker? 19:17:22 vier* 19:19:07 Youhou [n=jwr@bk-gw.rychter.com] has joined #lisp 19:20:06 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:20:12 Doc-Saintly: Ah, so. Falls so, woher kommen Sie? 19:20:45 Arizona ;) 19:23:13 Doc-Saintly: ;) OK, Ich habe ein Freund als Arizona... aber Ich kann nicht seine Geburtsstadt erinnern. 19:23:16 slyrus_: more non-lisp dependdencies tho 19:23:19 (excuse the poor typing; my flatmate is downloading something large and causing silly latency) 19:24:20 Spitze :) Tuhen sie viel mit AutoCAD? 19:25:14 Sie* 19:27:22 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A09A8.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:27:24 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:27:58 benny [n=benny@i577A09A8.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 19:29:37 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084222.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:30:18 -!- tayssir [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:30:38 pjb: i sometimes write asm-y lisp code. though that stuff is usually for some kind of simulator, so i think it's justified :) 19:32:09 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-157.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:32:26 Hun: I mean that most of the time that kind of code is slept under the rug, hidden in higher level macros, or in code generators. 19:33:19 Doc-Saintly: Ich habe getuhen ein bisschen mit MechanicalDesktop/AutoCAD wenn Ich war ins Gymnasium, aber Ich verließ vor vier Jahren. Jetzt bin ich in die Universität, und hier Wir arbeiten nur mit Matlab, Matematica und so weiter. 19:34:45 someone has to write the macros and code generators :) 19:34:48 meingbg: Also, Ich arbeite mit AutoCAD jeden Tag. Deshalb, Ich habe AutoLISP SEHR gern. 19:35:07 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:35:23 English, please? 19:35:41 or swedish 19:35:53 pjb: Why did you choose to view the  etc but not store in source? I'm working on a smaller key-mapping program, so it would be good to know of any pros/cons. 19:36:07 schme_: You from Sweden? 19:36:12 we all are! 19:36:13 meingbg: Yes. 19:36:20 meingbg: But the good part of Sweden. :) 19:36:21 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:37:11 schme_: I would've guessed so. What's the good part of Sweden? ;) 19:37:17 meingbg: it's nice to read greek letters, but it's more portable and exchangeable to leave ascii in the files. My files are utf-8, but I try to reserve non ascii characters to comments and strings, and only use them minimally, since I code in English most of the time anyways. 19:37:18 The south part! 19:38:15 schme_: från Skjuene? 19:38:22 Exactly. 19:38:29 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-127-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:38:32 With emacs, switching from one keyboard to the other is as easy as in Mac, so this wouldn't be the problem. More difficult would it be to try to use the whole unicode set, mathematical symbols and so on. I guess I'm waiting being able to buy an Optimus Keyboard before doing that. 19:39:18 /join #dvorak 19:39:25 whoops, sorry 19:39:45 pjb: If you had an Optimus Keyboard at every terminal you used, would you still prefer to leave the source files in ascii? 19:39:45 join AOEU? :) 19:40:15 aoeu! 19:40:18 tic: What's AOEU? 19:40:20 pjb, do you write code at all in non-English? 19:40:26 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:40:28 meingbg, the left-hand homerow of dvorak keymaps. 19:40:31 meingbg: the 4 left-hand homekeys 19:40:52 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 19:40:55 you two use dvorak i take it? 19:40:59 yes 19:41:00 We all do. 19:41:07 no, we all dont <.< 19:41:07 heh 19:41:11 I wish I did 19:41:13 you mean YOU don't? 19:41:16 i think my brain would explode if i tried to use dvorak 19:41:18 schme_: do you swap out () and <>, too? 19:41:24 -!- Fare [n=Fare@c-71-232-6-92.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has left #lisp 19:41:58 sykopomp, I have {[]} mapped on altgr-aoeu and ?() on altgr-QWE-equivalent. 19:42:02 sykopomp: I have 'em on the left hand home row at the moment. Well not <>, but () 19:42:05 I'm going to give it a try, but first i'm going to eat 19:42:27 *tic* switched around '98, happy ever since 19:42:28 meingbg: it's more a question of interchange with other systems and users. Remember ASCII is America Standard Code for Information Interchange. Unicode could serve the same purpose, but it would have to be 100% generalized. I guess today it's only 87% 19:42:36 Jarvellis: it's going to take a little more than an afternoon.... 19:42:54 sykopomp: how much to you think i'm eating? 19:42:58 tic: I started switching about 4 years ago 19:43:00 Anyway it's evening now 19:43:01 pjb, UTF-32 everywhere? 19:43:14 Jarvellis: it will take a few months. At least. 19:43:19 -!- Soulsbane [n=Soulsban@dial-69-55-136-74.sofnet.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:43:22 to actually type well with it. 19:43:45 -!- cracki_ is now known as cracki 19:43:52 tic: I have to work on some code bases not 100% in English. It's hard to read, switching languages between keywords and variable names... 19:43:54 I'm hesitant to switch to dvorak... anyone ready to tell me I'm mistaken about the downsides of switching? 19:44:08 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-19-242.kosnet.ru] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:44:13 meingbg: if your purpose is typing speed, there are faster keyboards. 19:44:16 meingbg: there are no downsides. I can type qwerty just as well. 19:44:17 Do you have a specific reason to switch to Dvorak, meingbg? 19:44:22 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 19:44:26 meingbg: namely, specifically generated keyboards. 19:44:49 "i can't fix your computer, i need dvorak keyboard layout" 19:44:57 meingbg, http://mikael.jansson.be/static/config/Xmodmap 19:45:04 H4ns1, I can type with qwerty, but it hurts my wrists. 19:45:05 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:45:12 H4ns1: thats kind of like what i say when i go to help someone with their computer and they still have win 95 or 98 installed 19:45:22 I have no real reason to switch, except typing speed. As for now I type english faster than my native tounge, kinda weird if you ask me. 19:45:25 *rsynnott* has never been convinced about dvorak 19:45:37 is there actually that much of a boost to typing speed? 19:45:41 tic: it's not like the keyboard changes shapes, maybe certain words hurt les 19:45:41 meingbg, comfort, perhaps? so much nicer for your hands. 19:45:50 rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:45:54 rsynnott: I find it more comfortable to type in. I don't actually type faster with it. 19:45:58 Doc-Saintly, make a frequency analysis of English text. 19:46:01 meingbg: same here, but that's because there are much less accented letters in English, and smaller words. 19:46:17 tic: is it really? maybe that would be good in the long run. 19:46:19 tic: make a frequency analysis of the C++ language, html, php, lisp, german, and english 19:46:22 and then we'll talk 19:46:24 hrr4 [n=hrr4@80.78.22.172] has joined #lisp 19:46:28 For German, the NEO keyboad layout is said to be faster than Dvorak. 19:46:30 (mind you, people are funny about keyboards. A colleague has a crazy one with the keys arranged in indentations, and also a silly mouse. I had to make him attach a real keyboard and mouse as well just so I can help him with stuff) 19:46:37 -!- _Grub_ [i=kvirc@217.149.187.55] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:47:00 pjb: On a swedish keyboard there's individual keys for all accented letters, so i think it gotta be the setup itself that's made for english, or something. 19:47:04 Doc-Saintly, sure. I did that for all text I typed during four months. I got the dvorak home row. 19:47:10 meingbg: http://www.glokal.eu/node/46 19:47:19 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:46 so you use the left keys on the home row the most? 19:47:46 Doc-Saintly, (C++, Python, PHP, HTML, plain-English, plain-Swedish) 19:47:57 EAHTNS were at the top. 19:48:06 IIRC. I don't have the file anymore. 19:48:11 what if someone is left/right handed, opposite of what you are 19:48:14 but you should be able to get hold of the information. 19:48:33 I suspect it's a serious case of premature or marginal optimisation 19:48:34 Doc-Saintly, that does not matter much. The key is to have the most commonly used characters on the home row, regardless of your left-/righthandedness. 19:48:53 i can tell you that all the keys next to my left hand would be #1 on my list. 19:49:07 because when i program shortkeys in autocad, i make them typable with only the left hand so the right hand doesn't leave the mouse 19:49:12 if someone were left handed, this would be the opposite 19:49:14 moreover, because of the placement of wovels and consonants, you tend to use each hand equally. 19:49:19 one thing cannot be "better" for everyone ;) 19:49:20 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:49:40 Doc-Saintly: why not? 19:49:54 because better is a relative term 19:50:13 Doc-Saintly: That makes perfect sense. dvorak is really made for two hand typists, not people who use mouse/keyboard at the same time. 19:50:18 i.e., instead of typing whole words with just one hand, you often do half with the left hand and half with the right hand. moreover, you often make a "drumming" motion, where you go from the pinky to the index finger when typing. 19:50:20 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:50:27 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0vxzIamlzoA society is gone 19:50:31 Doc-Saintly: I don't see your point. 19:50:32 Doc-Saintly: And I'm with you there with the autocad. Having to leave the mouse just to hit stuff seems horrible :) 19:50:47 hehe the only point i'm arguing is people insisting one is better than the other 19:50:51 it's all relative to the person using it, 19:50:52 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 19:51:15 schme_: yea thats why all my commands have goofy abbreviations that have nothing to do with what they do ;) 19:51:23 :) 19:51:38 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:48 Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:51:52 Doc-Saintly, speaking of that, why not move the mouse to the left hand instead? I did that. Shorter distance from the keyboard (unless you have a happy hacking keyboard). 19:52:07 shorter distance from the keyboard ... ? 19:52:09 It is sometimes possible to show that A is always better than B, in every case. Insisting that everything can be good or bad depending on circumstances leads to relativism and mediocrity. 19:52:16 tic its the same distance from the keyboard 19:52:21 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:52:26 are you trying to say its a shorter distance from the keys i want to hit? ;) 19:52:33 and at that point, why not just program all my commands to be number combinations 19:52:41 OK, let me rephrase that: shorter distance to /move your hand/ to get at the mouse. 19:52:56 tic: Working with autocad one generally do not want to release the mouse at all ;) 19:52:57 hehe my goal is to not have to move it at all 19:53:08 and i can often do this just by changing the name of the command 19:53:19 (defun c:car ... def, feg, reg, ref etc. etc. 19:53:44 Doc-Saintly: #arc is waiting for you. 19:53:51 hehe what is arc? 19:54:04 arc is yet another lisp. 19:54:16 a lisp-1 CL-type thing without any of the useful stuff 19:54:26 It's a Scheme, really. 19:54:27 dmiles_afk [i=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:31 (or language for the next hundred years, depending on who you ask) 19:54:34 But, I'm much with Doc-Saintly on this. renaming things make perfect sense with autolisp. 19:54:47 Paul Graham has rather ambitious life-span expectations 19:54:47 anything that makes life easier to do with just the one hand on the keyboard is the best. 19:55:06 A dialect optimised to minimise typing, for those who'd rather deal with huffman-encoded code than use a decent editor. 19:55:24 PG's Vim heritage shows. ;) 19:55:29 i use notepad++ and have been pretty happy with it (waits for attacks) 19:55:50 The case here is not so much to minimise typing, it's to minimise time one spends without having one hand on the mouse ;) 19:56:02 also his dislike of CLOS 19:56:19 and as for its wacky if statement, well, I'm not sure what THAT shows 19:56:53 tic: and example is, if i want to rotate in vanilla autocad, i type "rotate" hit enter / space / right click (any one of these) 19:57:10 if i shorten it to r (because thats the command that starts with r that I use the most ;) ) i hit r and start drawing with my mouse hand right away 19:57:16 -!- Youhou [n=jwr@bk-gw.rychter.com] has quit [] 19:57:30 instead of moving back and forth to type the command, i get tripped up sometimes when AutoCAD lags on the command because i'm already clicking what i want to do 19:58:04 Doc-Saintly: It's a bit of a culture problem here. People in this channel use common lisp, and just use both hands to write code :) Very different from the autocad workflow :) 19:58:13 indeed 19:58:26 hehe schme_ another thing i've done to improve autocad is remapped the ` key as a modifier 19:58:40 so i can hit `+d for a decimal, and `+1 for a 0, the two most common keys i have to move my mouse hand for 19:58:45 Hmm.. I'm not sure we have ` in the same place. It's heck for me to hit :) 19:58:51 probably ;) 19:58:52 Doc-Saintly: as a matter of interest, what do you do? 19:59:01 for me its to the left of 1 :) 19:59:07 That's a good idea though. I'll make a note of that. 19:59:09 rsynnott: what do i like to do? or what pays the bills? ;) 19:59:14 are you an autocad user who uses autolisp, or someone who writes autolisp apps for autocad users? 19:59:29 schme_, my ` key is undead and sits to the left of backspace 19:59:42 schme_: i type 1/8 a lot which in decimal is .125, so with the modifier i can do `d125 ;) 19:59:47 tic: Ya just try hitting that smoothly with your left hand :) 19:59:50 rsynnott: both :) 20:00:02 schme_, right hand, but well. 20:00:06 Doc-Saintly: very nice. 20:00:17 tic: Yes. But right hand is on the mouse. So it's a pain to hit it. 20:00:18 *rsynnott* was always puzzled as t who exactly used autolisp 20:00:26 schme_, no no, left hand on the mouse! 20:00:34 rsynnott: hehe, so 90% of the people using autocad don't actually use lisp ;) 20:00:37 autolisp* 20:00:40 tic: I'm right handed, so I use the right hand on the mouse. 20:00:45 me being of programming nature, i couldn't live without it 20:00:58 i have 1500 lines of code that load up when i start a drawing to give me all my goodies i've programmed 20:01:09 if i do something more than 4-5 times i write a routine for it to make it one step ;) 20:01:17 Yay :) 20:01:39 schme_, so am I. 20:01:42 and then i share it around the office for those who care. 20:01:56 Doc-Saintly: Just last month some idiot at my work decided to do some "system upgrade" and thought random wiping off stuff was a good idea. Including all my specialised autolisp :) 20:02:00 there's some i would have been wise to do at home, sell it for $20, and then sell licenses to my company lol 20:02:08 adeht: there? 20:02:22 schme_: thats why i keep mine on a thumbdrive and load it onto the computer upon logon, and have a multitude of backups 20:02:27 tic: Well me atleast have more control of the right hand than the left hand, so I use that for the mouse. 20:02:34 if i lost my file i would probably curl up in a ball and eat a tub of ice cream 20:02:45 yeeess.. 20:02:57 It did ruin my day anyway :) 20:03:00 hey schme_ 20:03:06 Hello elderK 20:03:13 :) Can I bug you for some help? 20:03:14 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:03:20 me? with what? 20:03:20 Trying to get ahold of do. 20:03:29 trying to recreate this C construct 20:03:36 Ok.. 20:03:43 It sounds like a bad idea. ;) 20:03:55 for (int a = 0, b = (a * 2); a != 10; a++) print a 20:04:12 What's the point of the b there? 20:04:18 simply to be what it is. 20:04:23 right. 20:04:27 It is always double the current value of a. 20:04:39 :) Just playing here, to get a hand of how to use Do 20:04:43 Oh I see. So what have you gotten with do ? 20:04:45 (loop for a from 0 below 10 do (print a)) 20:05:37 mattrepl- [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:39 (dotimes (a 10) (print a)) 20:05:50 :) Just playing here, to get a hand of how to use Do. 20:05:55 You're both missing the b there. 20:05:56 Sorry, double post. 20:06:07 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 20:06:17 elderK: So how do you think the do construct would look? 20:06:25 schme_: don't worry, if it wasn't we, it would be CL compilers. 20:06:33 pjb: :) 20:06:58 elderK: You must use DO* rather than DO. 20:06:58 (do ((a 0 (1+ a)) (b (* 2 a))) ((= a 10)) a (print b)) 20:06:59 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 20:07:05 my god I hate DO. 20:07:07 :D 20:07:15 hoh. 20:07:20 print b? 20:07:24 elderK: DO binds in parallel, DO* sequentially. 20:07:37 The problem that SBCL gives me, is that b references a, which doesnt exist? 20:07:47 In parralel? 20:07:50 er, parallel? 20:07:54 Ya. you need DO* :) 20:07:58 elderK: Yes, DO binds like LET, and DO like LET* 20:08:01 So, what would b be in this case? 20:08:17 (b (* 2 a) (* 2 a)) or some such. 20:08:26 We all use ITERATE ;) 20:08:26 Thats why it screams at me, it says "a is unbound". 20:08:34 :P Iterate? :P 20:08:39 Yes. you must use DO*, not DO 20:08:56 schme_: So, using DO* binds the variables sequentially :) 20:09:00 matley [n=matley@83.224.139.109] has joined #lisp 20:09:01 elderK: (let ((a 42) (b (* a 2)) b), A is not bound in the initform of B 20:09:18 elderK: Do you have tcr on ignore? 20:09:25 a = 0, then b = 2a. rather than : a = whaaaA?, b = a? 20:09:29 No, I dont. 20:09:33 Ok. Just checking. 20:09:41 Im just trying to reword what he said, so I can click to it :) 20:09:47 Aaah 20:09:50 Ok. 20:10:00 tcr, sorry if It seems like im ignoring you :) im not :) 20:10:04 elderK: Read the relevant chapters in PCL that introduce LET and LET* 20:10:33 :) Thanks, man, I want to get PCL in hardcopy. 20:10:45 It's definitely worth it. 20:10:48 is DO as hard as it looks? :( 20:10:58 sykopomp: It's not hard, just ugly :) 20:11:32 sykopomp: No, you just need to write two, or three DO forms yourself. 20:12:45 So, are you guys having a good day? :) 20:12:51 no 20:12:54 no :\ i'm at work 20:12:55 :) 20:13:00 why sy? 20:13:00 I'm having an excellent day. All days. 20:13:09 :P Heh, Doc-Saintly What do you do? 20:13:14 ^_^ I just got a job last week :D 20:13:21 elderK: Congrats. 20:13:30 I started on Friday, unofficial. Monday is my 'real' start. 20:13:34 Thanks, schme_ :) 20:13:52 my official title is designer elderK ;) 20:15:30 :) Nice, doc? 20:15:44 I'm on a 'trial' employee thing. Im kind of like an intern. 20:15:55 20 hours a week, writing drivers and suhc. 20:15:59 s/hc/ch 20:16:02 :) 20:16:21 heh that's a subject thats on my "to learn" list ;) 20:16:27 I make 100k as unix admin but fantsize about building software and getting rich using lisp 20:16:44 heh, unmaker. 20:17:08 Doc-Saintly: My hobby during college was kernel dev, which is why yesterday I was interested in native Lisp :) 20:17:31 I spent years playing with creating a specialized embedded kernel, that seemed to interest my employers - so, intern. 20:17:32 :) 20:17:41 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-200-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 20:17:49 elderK: You should get hacking on that there sbclOS then. 20:17:53 vasa [n=vasa@mm-200-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 20:17:58 -!- phao [n=phao@20158130203.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:18:25 elderK: my problem is i'm too ambitious ;) so i never get REALLY good at any one thing. 20:18:30 I tell you though, im freaking nervous. Ill be writing drivers for Linux. I mean, Ive looked at the Linux source to learn some things, but I havent written any drivers for it - just my own kernels. And, sure, thats harder since I had to do all the PCI stuff myself - but it was easier, because I knew the APIs like the back of my hand... 20:18:46 Doc-Saintly: Jack of all trades, master of none? 20:18:49 indeed 20:18:53 Beta as some might say ;) 20:19:08 elderK: There are books available on the linux kernel though. :) 20:19:22 Doc-Saintly: Yeah, but I figure as a designer that would make you invaluable - since, you would understand what it would take for your programmers to implement some idea, like, the timescale ? 20:19:34 :D Exactly schme_, most of them I have bit torrented :D :P 20:19:41 hehe i'm not a designer in programming elderK ;) 20:19:44 *elderK* tries to look inconspicous 20:19:54 although i would understand that about a lot of areas it's not what i design 20:19:58 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:20:04 i design something that supports something about half of you use most likely ;) 20:20:28 Windows? :P 20:20:34 *elderK* ponders 20:20:35 even lower :) 20:20:39 lower level* 20:20:49 huh? bsd? 20:20:51 intel processors? 20:20:52 How do you mean by support? 20:20:54 hardware of some sort? 20:20:57 floors ;) 20:21:01 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-200-94-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Client Quit] 20:21:02 hehe 20:21:17 you could be designing the firmware, that allows the host OS to interface with the hardware :) 20:21:25 or you could design the hardware that supports the firmware :P 20:21:27 Doc-Saintly, I scrolled the buffer a bit and noticed a conversation about autolisp. do you know if there is some other CAD software besides autocad that can be programmed with lisp? 20:21:30 *meingbg* wakes up 20:21:37 mornin' meingbg 20:21:38 :) 20:21:48 joga: there is a autocad ripoff thats a lot cheaper that supports autolisp 20:21:48 elderK: morning, what day is it? 20:21:56 google cadopia 20:22:11 its a couple hundred instead of a couple thousand, its about equivalent to R14 or so i've heard 20:22:23 but with the ability to program your own tools there isn't a need for much more unless you do 3d 20:22:31 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Success] 20:22:46 elderK: i said i design something that supports the thing 50% of you use ;) intel processors 20:22:58 Doc-Saintly, thanks for the info 20:23:01 Question to all Dvorakists: What do you do with all Ctrl-codes in emacs? Do you mix them around they way dvorak is mixed up from a qwerty perspective? 20:23:13 Tis Sunday, meingbg . 20:23:13 meingbg: Nope. 20:23:17 Doc-Saintly: i'm running on avr32 :) 20:23:22 probably far more than 50% of us use intel processors somewhere :) 20:23:25 Woah, you are a designer of processors :O Hardcore! 20:23:33 meingbg: I leave 'em where I like 'em. usually not changing anything. 20:23:36 elderK: What country are you in? 20:23:41 New Zealand. 20:23:41 :) 20:23:43 lol no not the processors :P 20:23:51 the sysstems that support the machines doing it 20:23:51 Doc-Saintly: what, was autodesk not a bit annoyed at them cloning their langauge? 20:24:07 my cpu is about to work. i think i just need 3 or 4 more days til it'll run on the fpga 20:24:09 Ohhhhh I get you now! 20:24:10 i'm sure they were, but i'm assuming autodesk lost that battle or else they wouldn't have a "copy" of it 20:24:13 then it's time for the fpu 20:24:13 ah, I do seem to remember hearing that intel had to make a lot of its own equipment... 20:24:26 Hun: what sort of CPU is it? 20:24:26 well they modify a lot of it 20:24:33 what're you making it with? 20:24:38 Damn, thats awesome Doc-Saintly. You must get paid a mint! 20:24:38 rsynnott: academical project. tiny risc cpu 20:24:42 :) 20:24:43 cool 20:24:43 heh i wish ;) 20:24:50 vhdl, with ghdl and the xilinx tools 20:24:51 will your FPU be pipelined? 20:24:57 intel pays their contractors even worse than their employees 20:25:14 i don't think so. we thought about pipelining the main cpu, but postponed it til later 20:25:31 I would have thought it'd be painful to implement after the fact 20:25:50 schme_: Do you have to actively do something to leave them where they are? Like, if you Move the Q button, would you have to "move back" the C-Q? 20:25:52 (pipelining FPUs isn't that difficult as such, but you end up with something quite huge) 20:25:52 my fpu design is rather simple. 8*32bit register stack with ieee logic 20:25:55 :) 20:26:08 true. i'll have a look at how much space i need 20:26:15 meingbg: I'm not following you there. How do you mean? 20:26:20 right now the whole cpu runs at about 5% of the fpga 20:26:40 meingbg: C-Q is C-Q wherever Q happens to be located. 20:27:09 and the tools tell me it might run with up to 109 MHz. as the crystal can only supply 25, i think we did a pretty fine job :) 20:27:16 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 20:27:16 meingbg: I don't remap anything. All keybindings are the same, they're just on other keys than they would be on qwerty. 20:27:23 ah, th eluxury of big modern fpgas :) 20:27:32 true. those thingies are huge 20:27:49 i'm using CL to generate randomized testbenches. works fine :) 20:27:52 in second year in uni one of our projects was a pipelined FP multiplier; damn thing took up most of the tiny FPGAs we had by itself 20:28:07 ah, that's a nice use of CL 20:28:12 those things are painful to make manually 20:28:16 you don't have that thing lying around anymore, do you? 20:28:18 true 20:28:26 we have manual testcases for the edge cases 20:28:31 yep, should still be on my college disk share 20:28:41 schme_: OK, I see. Was it a problem to learn "new" key bindings? 20:28:52 if it understands ieee-single, i might have a use for it 20:29:24 bbs guys, dishes are growing stuff - slightly frightening ... 20:29:26 :P 20:29:32 meingbg: No, not at all. It was more of a problem to learn typing dvorak in the first place. After that teaching my hands the new things to hit in sxe was no problem :) 20:29:40 pkhuong: Are you there? 20:29:41 *elderK* finds hazmat suit, etc 20:29:45 *elderK* is back 20:29:49 *elderK* is back 20:29:56 rsynnott: the point that annoys me most in the cpu is that there's no default way to get the address of the pc/ip. that makes doing anything dynamic really hard 20:30:36 schme_: really, so you wouldn't have preferred to have they same keys for C- commands but still move letters around to get dvorak while typing? 20:31:18 meingbg: Nope. I see no benefit from it.. just a lot of work to remap all the bindings in whatever modes I plug in :) 20:31:40 Which, granted, could be automated.. Still I see no win :) 20:31:41 meingbg: i switched to dvorak a year ago. didn't change any of my emacs bindings, so everything moved around. i was amazed that it took nearly no time to retrain the bindings 20:31:46 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 20:32:36 Hun: how long did it take you to learn to type dvorak? 20:32:47 Hmmm... no idea here. 20:32:51 about 4 weeks til it started to work 20:32:56 3 months te be comfortable 20:33:16 i'm still not on my original speed with qwerty before, but i make a LOT less typing mistakes 20:33:54 meingbg: I found this helpful http://www.gigliwood.com/abcd/ 20:33:59 <.< i'm sorry but i find that funny Hun 20:34:06 meingbg: Not quite perfect for svorak though .) 20:34:23 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 20:34:23 i'm being purely comical here, but the dvorak may have helped typing mistakes but it didn't help with the grammer ;) 20:34:44 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:35:10 i'm no native english speaker and i had 4 beers... bear with me :) 20:35:39 hehe alright then :) 20:36:13 schme_: thx 20:37:19 Hun: I see. A few months ago I moved switched Ctrl and Caps, and mapped up,right,left,down to AltGr+K,L,M,comma. I now feel handicapped every time I'm at a windows box w/o my layout... 20:37:44 -!- Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has quit ["The trouble with a kitten is that, when it grows up, it is always a cat"] 20:38:17 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:38:19 hmmm <.< that just gave me a cool idea ;) 20:38:39 Doc-Saintly: What? 20:38:50 <.< Dunno, could be worth money ;) 20:40:03 meingbg: I hear you. In my case it would be a switched caps lock function to control button function, though 20:40:27 well for people on windows AutoHotKey can do marvelous things for key remapping 20:40:42 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:06 Doc-Saintly: Of course, any idea could... well, perhaps. If you think the arrow key map was cool, it's nothing compared to the idea I'm about to implement. 20:41:25 hm i doub't we're on the same page but i'm listening if you're sharing :) 20:41:38 clojure looks pretty cool 20:42:04 i finally got a chance to watch the boston lisp talk on clojure 20:42:31 tcr: pong 20:42:48 syamajala: Yeah, that was great fun to watch. 20:42:51 pkhuong: Are you familiar with sb-dissam? 20:43:04 (sb-disassem) 20:43:07 tcr: sb-disassem, surely? 20:43:15 Doc-Saintly: I was just checking if we were on the same page :) I will share when I have a working prototype. Now, I'll go shopping, so... later! 20:43:48 hehe k 20:44:02 I'd like if code portions comming from inlined functions are marked so 20:44:08 i wonder how much use i would be able to get out of it though considering i don't know java 20:44:42 tcr: that's not always doable, and would probably require more work in sb-c than sb-disassem ;) 20:45:34 Something I've been wondering about for the past couple days is how much work would be involved to make Python generate DWARF debugging tables for compile lisp functions. 20:45:40 pkhuong: The total pwnage would be a slime-contrib that colors same code portion in the disassemble output and and the lisp code 20:46:21 Wait, wait... Isn't that just a matter of using the source-location info from the higher debug levels? 20:46:32 nyef: yeah, what I'm thinking. 20:47:09 oh wait, from the higher *debug* levels? Does that always handle inlined functions correctly? 20:49:18 pkhuong: The question I actually wanted to ask you if there's some way to get at inferred type information? 20:49:45 pkhuong: That I don't know. I do know that trace files get confusing in the presence of inlined functions. 20:49:57 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:50:12 i'm assuming you guys have all seen the lisp comic from xkcd? 20:50:32 Doc-Saintly: If memory serves, ther was more than one. 20:50:42 s/ther/there/ 20:50:43 tcr: yes, there's a pseudo function that you can use to print the result of constraint prop for a value at each pass (I don't remember the name, though). You can also abuse %simple-fun-type. 20:51:02 indeed 20:51:05 http://xkcd.com/224/ 20:51:29 224... That'd be the one where the last panel had "ostensibly, yes" in it, right? 20:51:31 http://xkcd.com/297/ 20:51:33 indeed 20:51:39 i'm still not finding the one i want hehe 20:52:06 Re-reading the xkcd archives isn't entirely a waste of time, though. 20:52:28 http://xkcd.com/312/ <- Thats the one :) 20:52:31 pkhuong: (defun foo (x) (when (< x sb-int:base-char-code-limit) (let ((ch (code-char x))) (typep ch 'base-char)))) 20:52:49 pkhuong: I wonder whether sbcl is smart enough to infer that CH must be a BASE-CHAR. 20:52:54 no, but it could. 20:53:10 What's the hindrance at the moment? 20:53:14 oh wait, character-set. Maybe. 20:53:41 Hmm, guys - If all structures in Lisp ,are Lists. 20:53:49 Im confused as to how we could implement a tree? 20:53:50 elderK: They're not. Get a clue. 20:53:56 :) Okay! 20:53:59 *elderK* reads more 20:54:33 I bet it was easier to make that inference before :sb-unicode. 20:54:37 pkhuong: The (typep...) is actually a test form in some conditional that gets introduced by the call to an inlined function 20:54:39 tcr: yeah, it can... it'll even enumerate all the possible characters as a MEMBER type. 20:55:16 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:28 and I wonder if SBCL is smart enough to get rid of the branching 20:55:45 what is SBCL? i have to know because i have a commaand shortnamed that hehe 20:55:55 Hence my pledge for inlined code portion markers in the output of DISASSEMBLE. 20:56:04 tcr: weirdly enough, no. the typep transform seems to fail. 20:56:35 pkhuong: What did you do to find that out? 20:56:43 gigo [n=gigo@unaffiliated/gigo] has joined #lisp 20:57:51 which LISP interpreter/compiler should I download? 20:58:09 is LISP good for solving math questions like those of projecteuler? 20:58:10 I looked at the sb-kernel:%simple-fun-type of (lambda (x) (declare (base-char x)) (typep x 'base-char)) :| code-char DTRT (it might even be a bit too precise). 20:58:34 Doc-Saintly: sbcl is a popular cl compiler 20:58:37 gigo: SBCL, or CCL are good choices. Combined with Slime, an Emacs mode. 20:58:48 thanks rsynnott 21:00:43 pkhuong: What can you defer from the type?! 21:00:44 Doc-Saintly, there are more Lisp comics at www.lisperati.com 21:01:07 tcr: if the branch was inferred away, the type would be (MEMBER T) or NULL. 21:01:59 tic: i almost cried laughing when i saw the one about a kid's name being a table drop hack for SQL 21:02:12 http://xkcd.com/327/ 21:03:37 meingbg, about 4-5 months until original speed, then surpassing. 550 chars per minute or so. Not record-breaking, but very comfortable. 21:04:00 oudeis [n=oudeis@DSL217-132-192-221.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:09:16 pkhuong: Thank you very much. I raised both issues at the mailing list. 21:09:24 Man, Lists as Trees o_O 21:09:31 tcr: I think I see what's going on. 21:09:46 Doc-Saintly: What about "Help, I'm trapped in drivers license factory!" 21:10:01 pkhuong: I'm looking forward to your reply then. :-) 21:10:51 We just need a derive-type for char-code, like we have for code-char. 21:10:54 p_l: don't recall that one 21:11:37 Doc-Saintly: That's the name of the daughter of that crazy hacker mother :) 21:12:06 elderK, what about it? a Lisp list is what's usually referred to as linked list. You can obviously make any structure you want to. 21:12:09 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 21:12:49 not necessarily. expressing graphs as lists is pretty nonintuitive 21:12:50 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:13:08 Hun, graphs yes, trees - why? 21:13:17 trees are easy 21:13:18 tcr pasted "for pkhuong, this resembles my actual case" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70900 21:13:20 Hun: adjacency lists. 21:13:47 Graphs can be represented / can represent so many forms... 21:13:53 tcr: yeah, I think we can fix that issue. 21:13:57 true 21:14:53 pkhuong: I'd also like a slime-contrib that could give me inferred type information about the variable at point. 21:15:35 pkhuong: Alternatively, something like macroexpand-all that also insert inferred types via explicit LOCALLYs and DECLAREs. 21:15:38 tcr: you could send some annotated source to the compiler and have it print inference information during propagation? 21:15:54 -!- Eleanore [n=a@c-d470e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 21:16:12 Eleanore [n=a@c-d470e155.185-1-64736c10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 21:17:59 *tcr* envies pkhuong for his sbcl wizardry knowledge 21:18:01 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:18:09 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:18:30 kngspook [n=King@unaffiliated/alpha] has joined #lisp 21:18:33 pkhuong: you have sbcl commit bit, right? 21:18:57 tcr: waste a lot of time with M-. 21:19:08 -!- kngspook [n=King@unaffiliated/alpha] has left #lisp 21:19:48 stassats`: Recently got it, now that I have very little free time. 21:20:18 *tcr* afk. 21:21:00 pkhuong: could you please look at my "patch", it's very trivial and obvious, but i have troubles with sf mailsystem? 21:21:06 here it is http://stassats.dyndns.org/files/format-arguments.patch.txt 21:21:50 tic: hehe i was just thinking of something i noticed while working, do you use a special mouse? 21:22:05 Doc-Saintly, no, a regular two-and-a-wheel mouse. 21:22:22 tic: *tsk tsk* ;) hehe, thats where i get a lot of my functionality. 21:22:28 but I try to use it as little as possible. I use a tiling window manager (StumpWM) with good keyboard shortcuts. 21:22:38 tic: a logitech 10-12 button mouse, certain buttons mapped to modifiers 21:22:47 ctrl, alt, shift, ctrl +alt, ctrl+shift, etc. 21:22:57 so one finger on the mouse, and one button on the keyboard instead of multiple on either hand 21:23:37 what do you use a mouse for? i usually need it only for surfing the web, where i don't need the keyboard very often 21:24:03 well i'm not as CLI oriented as the rest of you guys in here i'm sure ;) 21:24:11 i'm CLI oriented? 21:24:24 stassats`: it got through. It might just be that no one has the time for now. 21:24:30 well, if you don't use the mouse much i would think so 21:24:31 does Lisp have big integer arithmetic? or are large integers shown as float as in C? 21:24:39 gigo: bignums. 21:24:53 Doc-Saintly: emacs user. kill all the rats ;) 21:25:12 hehe well thats why i say cli ;) i like my N++ 21:25:22 pkhuong: ah, then it's ok, i just don't see in gmane, strange... 21:25:36 emacs ain't CLI. 21:26:03 emacs is rather the opposite of the unix mindset. 21:26:32 ehm, while it may not be 100% CLI, its certainly closer to it than most other editors 21:26:59 try learning it before making claims ;) 21:27:10 try to be a bit more open minded 21:27:24 http://notepad-plus.sourceforge.net/commun/screenshots/scrsh_multiView.gif vs http://www.gnu.org/software/emacs/tour/images/splash.png 21:27:25 emacs is about being able to do what you want/have to 21:27:27 you tell me which uses the keyboard more 21:27:54 the one who has to type more code 21:28:08 which might be either caused by stupidity or a more complex project 21:28:19 the amount of keyboarding for navigation is neglible 21:28:36 hun you're missing the point though 21:28:51 i'm saying in emacs you can / do use the keyboard to navigate, which to me pushes it more towards CLI than GUI 21:28:53 can you enter text with all those mouse buttons? 21:29:00 hefner: yes 21:29:01 Doc-Saintly, CLI != keyboard-friendly user interface. 21:29:28 or that is to say, keyboard-friendly user interfaces aren't subsets of CLIs 21:29:29 you can have a GUI without having a mouselike device at all 21:29:29 tic: keyboard-friendly user interface != Keyboard ONLY user interface 21:29:41 minion: chant 21:29:41 MORE MODERATION 21:29:42 Doc-Saintly, nor is Emacs or Vim. It has proper mouse support. 21:29:46 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf77d.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 21:29:54 an interface can use the keyboard just as well as a GUI 21:30:01 *hefner* wishes people would consider what their terminology means, and not automatically equate text or a keyboard with a "command line" 21:30:05 Indeed, when I have to use a CLI, I start by using emacs, and then copy-and-paste from emacs to the CLi, or just launch a script edited in emacs from the CLI. 21:30:18 if you want an editor with a CLI, use 'ed' 21:30:23 or teco 21:30:23 hefner: i wish people would look at the entire phrase than aim at certain phrases used. 21:30:33 what do you use in a CLI? a KEYBOARD, not a mouse 21:30:42 of course you use a mouse 21:30:47 The CLI is so bad, than in bash, nowadays, you have a specific command: set editmode=emacs to make it more like emacs. 21:30:48 Doc-Saintly: Do you have anything relevent to Lisp to discuss? 21:30:56 for some time i had a cheatsheet open with the most important commandos 21:31:16 i could log into some servers and move stuff around via ssh just by c'n'p with the mouse 21:31:49 ahaas: he was talking about exotic AutoLisp earlier :) 21:32:09 heh, well it seems i'm talking to a very clear cut definition minded people though :\ 21:32:19 Isn't Autolisp off-topic here, too, though? 21:32:21 things don't fall so nicely into categories like programming tries to make it 21:32:24 Doc-Saintly: no, you just don't know what the hell you're talking about 21:32:30 hefner: and neither do you 21:32:35 you have clear categories in programming? 21:32:51 Hun: again not what i said, please re-read and THEN comment 21:33:01 tis be irc ;) 21:33:13 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Krystof 21:33:14 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@DSL217-132-192-221.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:33:26 here comes the cavalry 21:34:13 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has been kicked from #lisp 21:34:28 Doc-Saintly [n=darkness@ip68-2-184-184.ph.ph.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:34 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:34:36 yeah, stupid finite-sized channel ban list 21:34:56 Alright, i'm leaving, but next time you could be nice and ASK someone to go on topic instead of kicking just one person participating in the off topic discussion 21:35:00 -!- Doc-Saintly [n=darkness@ip68-2-184-184.ph.ph.cox.net] has left #lisp 21:35:23 -!- Krystof has set mode -b *!*gschuett@4.* 21:35:53 what's autolisp? 21:36:03 embedded lisp for scripting autocad 21:36:09 oh 21:36:15 usually written with ugly c-style closing parens 21:36:32 Hun: The curly parens, you mean? 21:36:38 nope 21:36:46 on extra line 21:36:51 I figured. 21:37:17 Like old Lisp code. (DEFINEQ (FOO (( and such. 21:37:41 (if HOPL-Uncut.pdf is correct) 21:38:18 Hoh. 21:38:37 -!- gigo [n=gigo@unaffiliated/gigo] has left #lisp 21:38:52 Yawn. 21:39:04 Very interesting indentation. I'm not quite sure how they were reasoning. 21:39:08 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:54 bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 21:40:25 oudeis [n=oudeis@DSL217-132-192-221.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:42:01 tic: they wrote code on paper, and when they copied it on punched cards, they just did it on the run, without minding the layour (or just trying to minize the number of cards). Pretty printers would print the sources nicely if that was needed. 21:42:30 pjb, that looked like code that /was/ typed in on a computer, actually. 21:42:49 pjb, but you're probably right. nobody in their right mind would format code like that. :) 21:42:51 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:44:35 clim with-look-and-feel-realization 21:44:57 *nyef* pokes specbot. 21:44:57 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/29-2.html#_1590 21:46:08 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-45-85.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:24 Is there a better way to do random numbers than just using the random function? 21:48:29 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 21:48:31 depends. 21:48:42 what random numbers do you need? 21:48:59 Randomly pairing people, shuffling a deck, etc. So relatively small integers 21:49:14 then random should be good enough 21:49:25 -!- Krystof has set mode -o Krystof 21:49:27 Well, I keep seeing the same order every time I load up my program 21:49:27 you likely don't need a specific distribution there 21:49:53 that's weird. which implementation? and do you pregenerate the randoms? 21:49:55 Draggor: I'd be scared if a program wasn't consistent. 21:50:08 Maybe you just need to use a new random-state? 21:50:10 if that's not what you want, then you should seed the random state with some invokation-specific information 21:50:35 Oooh, okay 21:51:21 I'm reading make-random-state now, thanks 21:52:38 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 21:52:57 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:52:57 If there were a school... let's just skip to the punchline: "random-state university". 21:53:12 haha 21:53:16 Hehe 21:53:27 That's almost as bad as a math joke 21:55:25 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:56:13 FareWell [n=grml@c-65-96-168-158.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:58:26 ... Umm... Is it just me, or does CLIM *default-frame-manager* imply the non-use of CLX in favor of C xlib bindings? 22:02:01 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@DSL217-132-192-221.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:02:17 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 22:03:05 -!- elderK [n=k@218-101-117-58.dialup.clear.net.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:04:02 Ugh. Nevermind, the spec is extra special confused about frame managers and ports. 22:04:51 milanj [n=milan@79.101.181.240] has joined #lisp 22:07:51 -!- bombshelter13_ [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:08:34 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 22:09:37 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 22:18:51 -!- arbscht is now known as arb 22:19:44 nyef: not sure how you mean 22:20:38 well, okay, I guess the example does. 22:21:16 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 22:21:41 disumu [n=disumu@p57A27D49.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:22:00 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.181.95] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:27:04 -!- FareWell [n=grml@c-65-96-168-158.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:27:28 -!- arb is now known as arbscht 22:27:40 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:45 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:29:55 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:33:50 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:34:00 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:58 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.52.23] has joined #lisp 22:40:40 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:43:10 duaneb [i=45cd3b57@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-3a95a7beaf804c99] has joined #lisp 22:43:18 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 22:43:26 ok, people 22:43:33 I use sbcl (though I'd rather use ccl) 22:43:41 how the hell do I install libraries? :P 22:43:47 Aside from asdf 22:44:36 you are on windows ? 22:44:43 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:45:57 no 22:46:00 I am on a mac 22:46:11 so what's problem with asdf then ? 22:46:15 Windows is for gaming, my mac and linux box is for working :P 22:46:26 It's painful to use 22:46:33 how is that ? 22:46:39 (require 'asdf-install) 22:46:43 there is no option 22:46:48 (asdf-install:install 'lib) 22:47:02 Well, can't I copy the files into a library path somewhere? 22:47:18 yep 22:47:20 you can 22:47:29 duaneb: sure you can, download it, link to asdf's central registry 22:47:35 link .asd file 22:47:37 why asdf?!? 22:47:39 jesus 22:47:43 if you'd rather use ccl, why don't you? :) 22:47:52 because asdf is even MORE broken there 22:47:55 duaneb: because there is no other option 22:48:00 duaneb: because there needs to be some way to describe a system 22:48:06 what a clusterfuck :P 22:48:14 excuse my french :P 22:48:27 duaneb: that was not my impression (that asdf was exxtra-broken on ccl) 22:48:27 and what is reasonn to hate asdf ? 22:48:30 i mean .. there is 22:48:37 duaneb: what problems do you have with asdf? 22:49:04 It's a hack that's clumsy 22:49:09 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAF1D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:49:15 and you are just installing/load libs 22:49:18 and hate asdf ? 22:49:25 duaneb: it's not a hack 22:49:26 wtf ? 22:49:27 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:49:40 I mean, seriously? 22:49:46 why doesn't `require` work? 22:49:47 hmm, what would a better solution be? 22:49:51 I dunno 22:50:01 have a directory of lisp files, then just require those lisp files? 22:50:07 rsynnott: xcvb! 22:50:08 then, to install, you just download and copy! 22:50:12 amazing! 22:50:15 but they'll have to be loaded in a special oder 22:50:31 duaneb: some lisp implementations check for ASDF systems when you use require 22:50:36 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.52.23] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:50:37 asd files ddictate tht order, and declare dependencies on other things 22:50:43 (including sbcl) 22:50:48 and ccl can be made to 22:51:10 stassats`: bah, vapourware :) 22:51:15 I know. 22:51:17 what a hack 22:51:22 why is there an order? :P 22:51:31 duaneb: stop whining, please 22:51:33 o boy :) 22:51:35 seems... clunky. 22:51:47 Hey, I'm not whining, I'm trying to figure out how to use the damn system 22:51:56 i told you 22:52:06 And if it's broken, then I have every right to enquire why 22:52:07 erm, in what langauge can you load random source files in any order you please and expect it not to break? 22:52:16 duaneb: you have the right to fix it. 22:52:27 I can't think of any other language so clumsy to require another package just to load packages 22:52:36 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 22:52:42 ruby ? 22:52:42 make, scons, cmake, cabal? 22:52:43 the results of doing stuff in the wrong order in vhdl are pretty weird 22:52:44 rsynnott: Oh, I don't know: c, ruby, python, scheme 22:52:45 duaneb: Basically every language out there? 22:52:47 java 22:52:58 p_l: like....? 22:53:13 stassats`: those are build systems 22:53:16 it usually manages to build something. i tried for half an hour today to understand what the generated code does 22:53:33 duaneb: BlaClass.java defines Bla, SuperBlaClass.java defines SuperBla which inherits from Bla 22:53:40 duaneb: I think the only language that doesn't require anything like that work thanks to quite different stuff 22:53:42 you must, I belive, load BlaClass first 22:53:49 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:53:55 or at least compile it firrst 22:53:57 duaneb: as well as asdf is 22:54:10 asdf is just a build system 22:54:10 rsynnott: ok, what does that have to do with the order of compilation? 22:54:20 Ok 22:54:29 My question is: how can I compile these libraries without asdf? 22:54:43 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:54:47 duaneb: load them in the order specified by *.asd files? 22:55:08 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:55:09 are you compiling other libraries in other languages by hand too? 22:55:09 and then use whatever is the local way of dumping it all into a binary/image file/any other deployment you want 22:55:14 Yes, but is there a load path or anything? 22:55:21 duaneb: how would you compile GTK without make? :) 22:55:53 rsynnott: that's not an acceptable comparison 22:56:07 why not ? 22:56:08 duaneb: can you explain why you cannot use asdf again? 22:56:16 it's like saying that in c you need to use an external library to include a header file 22:56:17 duaneb: system definition files should be in "root" directory of the package 22:56:29 h4ns: because I can't install anything. 22:56:36 that's a completely different thing 22:56:40 duaneb: perhaps you should use a language other than Lisp. 22:56:48 duaneb: asdf-binary-locations ? 22:56:56 duaneb: you do not need to "install" asdf. you can just (load "/path/to/asdf.lisp") and be done with the "installation" 22:57:14 beach: I've been using lisp for fifteen years. 22:57:14 duaneb, add the directory where the relevant asd file resides to asdf's path 22:57:15 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:57:20 it even comes with some implementations 22:57:22 and, as if by magic, it will work 22:57:24 such as sbcl, ccl 22:57:34 (or symlink your asds to one central directory 22:57:36 duaneb: and you have never had to load things in a particular order? 22:57:37 h4ns: no, you misunderstand 22:57:41 asdf-install does not work 22:57:43 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:52 1) Yes it does 22:57:55 duaneb: forget about asdf-install. 22:57:57 duaneb: you must have written 15 years worth of "hello world" programs. 22:58:03 beach: of course I have. But it's never been so bad that I've had to outsource the work to another library 22:58:11 2) you can load asdf systems without asdf-install 22:58:16 asdf has no connection with asdf-install 22:58:28 beach: no, in fact, I spent 15 years writing ai and graphics; it was, however, a lisp of my own design 22:58:29 duaneb: what, you had a big file of (compile "bla") (load "bla")... 22:58:31 ? 22:58:44 kngspook [n=King@unaffiliated/alpha] has joined #lisp 22:58:58 this had better not be NewLisp :P 22:59:00 rsynnott: Look; asdf-install may 'work' for you, but it is BROKEN out of the box! 22:59:04 duaneb: Well, I never claimed anything about asdf-install. I use clbuild for the time being, but I'm thinking of writing something for package management (when I stop being in such a financial pinch) 22:59:11 duaneb: ignore it. 22:59:13 duaneb: if you have that kind of DIY aesthetic, you ought to take trifling inconveniences like this in stride 22:59:28 duaneb: see 2 :) 22:59:32 Download a fresh install of sbcl, and type (require 'asdf) (require 'asdf-install) (asdf-install:install :cffi), I can guarantee you that it will not work 22:59:47 don't use asdf-install 22:59:52 funny, I do that rather a lot, and it works :) 22:59:57 duaneb: IIRC sbcl didn't include asdf-install... 23:00:05 it does. 23:00:07 p_l: it does 23:00:10 p_l: nope, it actually does, and has for some time 23:00:15 duaneb: with 15 years of lisp experience, you should be able to download a few tarballs and read some simple instructions on how to use asdf 23:00:17 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbf77d.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 23:00:22 it did for at least the last two years 23:00:33 (ccl does too, but it is hidden in a contrib directory somewhere) 23:00:37 h4ns: guess what I've been doing for eight hours? 23:00:46 hmm... well, I barely remember. I switched to clbuild quite fast 23:00:47 duaneb: you tried asdf-install. 23:00:54 duaneb: would it kill you to be vaguely nice to people? 23:00:54 I finally got it working, after an edit and recompile of sbcl 23:00:55 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:00:57 I don't want to do that again 23:01:21 duaneb: and you've propably spoiled your mind with 15 years of diy lisp. it will take more than 8 hours to adopt to what the rest of the lisp hackers have done in the mean time. 23:01:24 rsynnott: iirc, I just wanted to know how to `require` things without asdf 23:01:53 h4ns: sadly, yes :P 23:01:54 with `require' 23:01:59 ... 23:02:19 duaneb: Could please decide whether you are arguing about asdf or asdf-install? asdf doesn't take the problem of downloading and installing stuff, only of making sure you can load everything with one call 23:02:26 duaneb: forgetting asdf-install for a moment, asdf is very easy to use 23:02:31 and will even do the require thing :) 23:02:38 p_l: my apologies, I just assumed they were one and the same) 23:03:21 duaneb: They are not. I've been using ASDF without ASDF-install, most of the time (I gave up on ASDF-install due to various reasons) 23:03:27 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A27D49.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Success] 23:03:44 ok 23:03:45 btw, I'm a lisp newbie, so take everything with a grain of salt ^^; 23:04:03 but still, why all the pain and fuss for a very simple issue? 23:04:28 duaneb: I've lost track. What's the simple issue? 23:04:29 duaneb: it is not a "simple issue" really 23:04:30 just have 'require' search for the appropriately named .lisp file, then recursively include 23:04:55 duaneb: Well, somehow no one had gone this way with lisp 23:04:59 include? 23:05:10 rsynnott: include, import, require, whatever 23:05:10 rsynnott: Ruby style 23:05:13 duaneb: the answer, and you'll probably not like it, is that in ye olden days, Lisp ran on so many different kinds of platforms that that was not something that could be easily standardized. 23:05:44 These days ASDF mostly just works and some impls (such as SBCL) wire it up to the intentionally underspecified REQUIRE. 23:05:52 gigamonk`: Yes, I understand that. I am simply lamenting the fact common lisp chose complexity over simplicity 23:06:21 duaneb: In this case it's rather simplicity - "If you can't do something right, better don't do it at all" 23:06:47 I'm not convinced that this other approach you advocate would be better than asdf anyway 23:06:51 too bad they didn't follow that motto when they designed the pathname system 23:06:55 rsynnott: why not? 23:07:09 hefner: This way we wouldn't have any IO 23:07:14 It's worked well enough for python, ruby, c, c++, java, scheme, haskell, and scheme 23:07:22 The pathname system is fine! (If you totally ignore logical pathnames.) 23:07:32 duaneb: how did it work "well" in C++? 23:07:32 because any time you moved a macro definition, say, you'd have to go around modifying lots of requires 23:07:33 err, the last scheme was supposed to be ocaml :P 23:07:42 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 23:07:44 anyway, the status quo is asdf 23:07:48 best accept it 23:07:55 fusss: well, fine. It worked, and it was simple enough to hack it easily 23:07:55 duaneb: C doesn't use such system. Neither does C++. Java does not too IIRC 23:07:59 -!- rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:08:19 I think the problem here is that common lisp people view lisp as an environment, whereas I view it as a language 23:08:20 duaneb: oh well, tell me then why so many c libraries are using make? 23:08:27 gigamonk`: it is not. it's hopeless. even once you wade through all the random portability snafus and kludge around the missing operators, you'll just get screwed in the end when your lisp decides to utf8-decode all your filenames or something. 23:08:29 C and C++ only give you the ability to include a file 23:08:30 p_l: i know, but he mentioned c and C++;and java requires me to name files after the classes they contain :-/ 23:08:45 stassats`: again, I am comparing asdf to include, not to a compilation tool. 23:08:52 hefner: well, I'm not sure the utf8 thing can be laid at the feet of the pathname system. 23:09:08 At least insofar as you'd have the same problem in languages that just use strings to represent filenames. 23:09:15 duaneb: start with youreself. at the bottom of every lisp file you write, put '(load "next-file")' :-) 23:09:15 then you compare apples and suns 23:09:19 ok, whatever. I think i've discovered how asdf works 23:09:23 duaneb: well, you shouldn't be 23:09:25 Anyway, I find the pathname system quite nice for the things I've tried to use it for. 23:09:25 duaneb: Then I suggest comparing a hole to a F-111 for their abilities in curing cancer 23:09:26 it's a build tool 23:09:27 *duaneb* trashes asdf-install 23:09:39 Though I did, of course, feel the need to write a portability library. 23:10:10 p_l: ironically, chemotherapy was discovered when some form of warplane blew up a mustard gas storage facility in Italy 23:10:55 I found the pathname system to be damned good thing to have. Not everything uses as simple path system as Unix or Windows (btw, windows' drive names are only for DOS/Win9x compatibility. They don't exist internally) 23:11:08 rsynnott: Everything int this world is ironic 23:11:18 *in 23:11:25 a function that returns a row from an array? 23:11:32 Look: I want to include the functionality of another file. I don't care how it is done rather than the fact that it should get done. The intuitive thing to do is to use `require`; instead, I find myself loading the file through what appears to be a library. It is just weird and goes against every other *lisp* I have ever seen. 23:12:00 rullie [n=rullie@CPE00222d13276c-CM00222d132768.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:05 duaneb: You can, as someone said, just say (load "file.lisp") 23:12:16 If that's what you really want. 23:12:39 it will make anyone who has to modify your code want to muder you, but you CAN do it :) 23:12:45 duaneb: (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :system) is an equivalent of import in most langs 23:13:04 (also, at that point you introduce confusion over whether the file is compiled or not) 23:13:07 p_l: It's not that windows drive letters don't exist internally, it's that they're sortof-symlinks. 23:13:26 nyef: Yes, but internally, all paths start with \ 23:13:39 rsynnott: yeah. Well, you could easily write a slightly more clever version built on LOAD and COMPILE-FILE. 23:13:47 Heck, shadow REQUIRE and call it that. ;-) 23:14:20 what would clojure do? 23:14:23 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 23:14:44 But why is asdf *better*? 23:14:44 is there a function that returns a row on a rank 2 ARRAY? 23:15:00 Or don't shadow REQUIRE if your host environment has *module-provider-hooks* or whatever it's called. 23:15:01 duaneb: Better than what? LOAD? 23:15:07 minion: chant to duaneb 23:15:08 duaneb: MORE CLEVER 23:15:20 better than hypothetical module loading mechanism? 23:15:22 duaneb: Cause it's an equivalent of make + pkg-config + loader? 23:15:26 Because it handles dependencies for you. 23:15:34 drdo: make-array might be able to do it, but that gets into nastiness. 23:16:00 hefner: 'load', I think (sssh) 23:16:10 clearly, someone needs to write clojure-asdf :) 23:16:27 Also, on some implementations you get some additional asdf operations. Quite important ones, too 23:16:35 nyef: how could i do it then? 23:16:45 nah, it clojure runs on the jvm. to keep in the spirit of its surroundings, it ought to use some xml-driven monstrosity. 23:17:08 drdo: Make a new array, the size of a row, displaced to the apropriate spot in the original array. 23:17:30 :S 23:18:09 I think I may have used displaced arrays once. 23:18:20 AFAIK, clojure does NOT currently have a mechanism to produce compiled files independent of Java's class things 23:18:42 slyrus: herep 23:18:49 rsynnott: on most days, I consider that a feature. 23:18:50 Or I may have done the smart thing and just split things up into separate arrays and had another explicit layer of indirection... 23:19:14 Anyone used cl-typesetting to produce very large documents? 23:20:26 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:20:51 ok, one last question 23:20:57 (this is rather sbcl or ccl specific) 23:21:09 is there any way to access the internal assemblers of said lisps? 23:21:50 duaneb: Look through sbcl-internals wiki, and check the source. I'm pretty sure there's access, but nothing was really done to make it easy to use outside their own compilers AFAIK 23:21:57 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:01 p_l: thanks 23:22:02 though I remember someone talking about it somewhere 23:22:25 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-132-156.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 23:22:35 There are a few ways to get access to sb-assem, depending on what you're trying to accomplish. 23:22:56 Basically, I want to feed it assembly and get a function back 23:23:14 A full-on FUNCTION object? 23:23:18 sounds rather risky 23:23:49 It's... doable. I can think of two methods, myself. 23:24:40 duaneb: I guess you'd need to create a function that would make all required parts at the beginning and at the end as well as mappings of registers, with your assembly in between 23:25:09 Actually, I think I may have an angle for a third method... 23:25:27 It's rare to want such things, though. What exactly are you trying to accomplish? 23:25:34 and of course it'd sort of tie you to one platform 23:25:48 with, probably, a decent chance of breaking on new vsns of your compiler 23:26:46 SBCL's been surprisingly stable about things like this, though. 23:26:58 duaneb: With ECL you can access underlying C compilers assembly support, + you might simply link in some assembly and call it from a prepared function 23:27:00 Probably due to the difficulty of changing the calling conventions. 23:27:34 duaneb: ccl has defx86lapfunction/defppclapfunction, you may want to look at those. 23:28:48 h4ns: thanks 23:28:55 p_l: thanks 23:29:26 nyef: system programming :D 23:29:34 essentially 23:29:40 What -sort- of system programming? 23:29:43 or, in another project, fast math :P 23:30:23 nyef: virtual 8086 mode 23:30:30 whats up lispers 23:30:43 users of what alan kay called the single msot important language 23:30:45 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-157.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:31:22 Wait, vm86 mode basically just requires calling vm86(2), setting up your memory maps and whatnot right and hooking the various signal handlers properly. 23:31:53 Hardly calls for much assembly hacking, particularly not anything which would follow lisp calling conventions. 23:32:10 why did people invent haskell if lisp was alraedy heere? 23:32:37 so they could chat more about math over their tea 23:32:38 the_unmaker: haskell is rather.. different 23:32:47 seangrove [n=sgrove@adsl-76-238-251-5.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:32:54 the_unmaker: haskell has quite different paradigm in many places 23:32:58 the_unmaker: haskell is strictly typed, purely functional. common lisp is multiparadigm. 23:33:05 hey all, if I'm looking to get lisp setup on osx, is clojure a good place to start? 23:33:11 is lisp more fun? 23:33:18 -!- matley [n=matley@83.224.139.109] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:33:25 the_unmaker: I consider both good fun 23:33:38 the_unmaker: Haskell is closer to "executable math" though 23:33:41 seangrove: depends - if you want to read a few books, too, choose common lisp. 23:33:56 seangrove: we are talking here mostly about common lisp, #clojure is for clojure 23:33:59 seangrove: if you have a ppc or amd64, yep 23:34:05 oh, sorry, read that as clozure 23:34:13 nevermind :) 23:34:17 heh, sounds good 23:34:24 is there a simple enough way to get common lisp setup? 23:34:32 rsynnott: did you try 32bit x86 clozure? anything about it makes you not recommend it? 23:34:32 Since that's what the book I have says on the front :D 23:34:58 seangrove: Does it also say something about practicality? 23:35:08 H4ns: it's pretty new, considered beta, and you have to compile it yourself 23:35:12 seangrove: you may want to look into lispbox, but getting the stuff to run from pieces is also not so very hard. 23:35:22 the last in particular might make it not-so-great for a new person 23:35:26 rsynnott: no, you have not 23:35:30 rsynnott: i don't think that you have to compile it yourself. 23:35:36 oh, there's a build now? 23:35:37 cool 23:37:30 dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 23:37:55 svn co http://svn.clozure.com/publicsvn/openmcl/trunk/darwinx86 will get you a runnable x86 installation of ccl (both 32- and 64-bit). (Note that it is the trunk, and not a release.) 23:38:35 ah, right, didn't know about that :) 23:38:51 (or linuxx86 or freebsdx86) 23:38:53 If I've got a 'live' object in my SLIME REPL, how do I inspect it? 23:39:15 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.181.240] has joined #lisp 23:39:28 mouse-3 -> inspect? 23:39:39 rme: do I remember correctly that CCL on win32 is immune from the address space constraints that makes sbcl/win32 so fragile? 23:39:40 Uh, what's that on a Mac? 23:39:58 gigamonkey: plug in a mouse :) 23:40:04 hefner: What address space constraints? 23:40:08 rsynnott: thanks. ;-) 23:40:11 (think there MIGHT be a key combination for it) 23:40:28 (swank:inspect-in-emacs *) also works. 23:40:53 or C-c I * 23:41:01 M-x slime-inspect-presentation-at-point 23:41:27 hefner: the win32 port hasn't been used all that much, but we haven't run into those problems. 23:41:33 -!- Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:41:40 A.k.a. C-c C-v i 23:42:11 kami-` [n=user@p4FD38ACE.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 23:42:17 if anyone wants to try out ccl/win32, we'd love bug reports... 23:42:18 p_l: the one where SBCL depends on certain address ranges being available for it with no way to enforce that no one else use them, causing it to not work if windows happens to have decided to map some DLL there 23:42:53 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 23:42:53 hefner: I though it was possible to force relocation... 23:42:59 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:43:01 (of said DLL) 23:43:06 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 23:43:29 not once it's already loaded! =p 23:43:35 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.181.240] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:44:15 hefner: Also, there's this stuff with randomised images (but that requires NT6) 23:44:55 http://trac.clozure.com/openmcl/wiki/WindowsNotes for any interested parties 23:45:10 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 23:45:55 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:07 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:47:19 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:47:29 hmm, yep, annoyingly enough, there doesn't seem to be a standard way to middle-clcik on a mac laptop 23:48:32 rsynnott: tried multi-finger taps? 23:49:19 they can do right-click, but seemingly not middle-click 23:50:53 computers should have knobs and switches 23:50:55 ferada [n=ferada@f054012017.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 23:51:33 well, they used to :) 23:51:41 can't get a decent front panel these days :P 23:51:51 They still have. Virtual knobs and switches drawn in GUIs. 23:51:52 (beboxes had allegedly meaningful led displays) 23:52:24 rsynnott: They could be controlled from software, and usually showed up cpu usage 23:54:18 Try to imagine a word processor with a control panel. You'd enter your letters by switching keys in binary... 23:54:34 and pushing a bing "ENTER" button. 23:54:38 conceivably someone can write a program for a powerbook/macbook pro to morse through keyboard backlight 23:54:41 s/bing/big/ 23:54:52 I can't reconcile my feeling that CPU usage meters are mostly useless with my frequent desire to run top and make sure nothing is running that shouldn't be. Maybe the solution is to adapt Xach's moviecharts code into a process monitor. :) 23:55:34 I'd quite like a big led panel which could remotely show server CPU and IO activity :) 23:55:37 *rsynnott* patents 23:55:59 *p_l* rejects on prior art 23:56:29 (I already use an iphone to view system graphs at parties; I'm getting quite paranoid these days) 23:57:18 *p_l* simply installed ssh on his phone 23:57:25 yep, that too 23:57:27 rsynnott: if I'm going the big panel route, I'd like prefer something that look like it came out of a U-boat, with backlit gauges and some big valve wheels 23:57:56 next time they're decomissioning a 50s nuclear power plant in the UK, I'll see if they're selling off parts 23:57:58 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD382C8.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:58:03 those things had GREAT control rooms 23:58:18 *hefner* really must learn to read his sentences before hitting enter, or stop performing mid-sentence edits 23:58:32 (modern ones have control panels which look disappointingly like startrek ones) 23:59:01 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-241-16-81.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:59:05 the iphone is very startrek 23:59:06 star trek ones are so unusable that they were joked about even in the series... 23:59:18 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.181.240] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:59:18 well, the next generation, anyway 23:59:29 what is lispbox?