00:01:06 _3b: I mostly do it to learn lisp, but thanks for pointing that out 00:01:22 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless06.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:01:45 <_3b> inetic: yeah, learning is OK, just making sure you weren't duplicating effort unintentionally :) 00:02:05 :-) 00:02:12 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 00:02:37 *p_l* wanders if anyone ever tried to make a Lisp->PHP compiler 00:04:01 I'd ask why anyone would want to, but there are some perverse people out there. 00:05:22 nyef: Like for situations where you are forced to put the finished thing in PHP-only environment, and you really do not want to code PHP anymore 00:05:38 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:06:15 Last time I had to do any serious coding in PHP, I put together a simple wrapper and did the dirty work in perl instead. 00:06:22 And that was a couple years ago. 00:07:07 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:07:21 I'll leave aside the whole argument about being "forced" to do anything. 00:07:25 Quel238 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has joined #lisp 00:07:25 Umth507 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has joined #lisp 00:07:31 Iasi991 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has joined #lisp 00:07:51 -!- Iasi991 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:07:51 -!- Quel238 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:07:51 -!- Umth507 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:09:20 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:10:57 Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:11:08 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:11:09 willb [n=wibenton@wireless06.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 00:14:18 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:14:33 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 00:14:52 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 00:16:00 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 00:19:18 sbcl takes a good second to start up when running natively 00:19:38 I'd hate to see how slow it was if running in some sort of insane php vm :) 00:19:50 (also, PHP didn't have proper GC, last time I heard) 00:20:01 Angck736 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has joined #lisp 00:20:02 Eormo918 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has joined #lisp 00:20:06 p_l: surely php-only environments are dying out? :) 00:20:10 That's OK. If it provides arrays, that'll be good enough, rsynnott! 00:20:42 -!- Angck736 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:20:42 -!- Eormo918 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:20:57 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-039-222.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:21:00 Riastradh: no it DOESN'T :) 00:21:13 (they look like array, but they are secretly a form of mutant hash table 00:21:32 As long as they can behave like arrays, they'll still do. 00:21:42 maybe a very large string could be used as heap :) 00:22:07 rsynnott: time sbcl --noinform --eval "(quit)" says 0m0.058s realtime. Pull the other one. 00:22:32 hmm, yep, it seems to be faster these days 00:22:42 maybe it was merely that my old laptop was really, really slow 00:23:02 Or maybe it's my CPU being decently fast. 00:23:19 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:26:09 rsynnott: I was actually thinking of lisp DSL that would create a specialised PHP code 00:26:10 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:26:29 also PHP-only still seems to thrive 00:28:03 that seems saner than my idea :) 00:28:25 Drat354 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has joined #lisp 00:28:29 I was thinking of something like parenscript, except that it would generate PHP instead 00:29:21 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:29:43 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-de05c8c2b9549629] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:30:02 -!- Drat354 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:32:15 the whole thing originates from the idea of central repo/directory for a lisp package system - because the only environment I have access to at the moment is php-only 00:33:30 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-053-191.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:35:15 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 00:35:37 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:38:43 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["took the right pill, thanks morpheus! IHTFP"] 00:39:26 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:42:11 dv___ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:42:30 -!- dv___ is now known as dv_ 00:47:54 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["1st day on dvorak irc -> pain"] 00:48:50 bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:54:29 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless06.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:55:11 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:56:19 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 00:56:52 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.249.204] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:58:58 i'm already familiar with map and reduce and lexical scoping due to python ruby and ocaml 00:58:59 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:59:17 python?? =p 00:59:23 will i still experience that lisp eureka that i've heard so much about? 00:59:34 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:59:39 should i decide to take an honest stab at lisp? 00:59:50 No. You already know all you need to know. 01:00:13 It would be better for you not to experience something new. 01:00:51 clos, macros? 01:01:00 Pay no attention to those things. 01:01:25 ahahaha 01:01:50 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:02:09 i'm confused, how can i know everything already yet still have new things to learn? 01:02:13 have you considered arc? :) 01:02:19 (or is that just mean?) 01:02:32 Under no circumstances would I advise you to ask minion for pcl-book. 01:04:29 great, thanks for pointing me in the right direction. 01:04:53 (That would be "minion: pcl-book?", but I urge you not to do that.) 01:05:26 minion: please tell mbac about pcl 01:05:27 mbac: please see pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 01:05:51 thanks, but bem persuaded me not to 01:06:14 mbac: READ IT ;-) 01:06:38 *oudeis* started to look at python few days ago, and found its concept of lexical scope rather strange 01:06:50 if only for that rdbms with query DSL in <2k LOC IIRC 01:07:28 i can't live with anything but lexical scoping now that i'm used to ocaml 01:08:11 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483B827.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 01:08:13 mbac, here is an additional treat for you, dynamic scoping. you will find it useful as well 01:08:15 <_3b> don't most languages use lexical scoping? or do you mean closures? 01:08:41 doesn't proper lexical scoping imply closures? 01:09:12 <_3b> not if you don't have first class functions 01:09:51 oh, i forgot about such languages 01:10:16 <_3b> yeah, not an unreasonable thing to do :) 01:10:26 stassats`: c is pretty prominent in this regard :) 01:10:54 i'd like to be as smug as you guys 01:11:00 i think i'll print out a few chapters for the train 01:11:30 oudeis: well, it was designed to be as close to the metal as it could be without becoming assembler... 01:12:48 *p_l* notes that ECL is an example of the designed use of C 01:12:49 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 01:12:52 p_l: i don;t question c's design decisions 01:12:52 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 01:13:12 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:13:34 i was amused we live in such enlightened times someone can forget c exists 01:14:16 thanks to common lisp 01:14:18 oudeis: Unfortunately I think this is more because of C++, Java and .NET 01:14:22 mbac, beware: with smugness comes weeniness 01:15:31 I remember someone arguing that universities should get back to C & Lisp (or other *real* high level languages) instead of Java (or dumbed-down Java dialects) 01:16:19 So that with a low-level lang. students would learn how everything works, and with high-level how to write & design 01:16:54 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 01:17:06 p_l: At that point, they may as well teach assembler for a couple machines as well. 01:17:32 isn't assembler better? i programmed at universy in some virtual simple assembler 01:17:40 Real machines, too, not this namby-pamby just-in-time compiled bytecode junk. 01:17:48 as soon as universities will go back to being themselves and not technical prep schools for junior coders, that will happen 01:18:14 nyef: Alpha would be good enough. Coding without memory coherence and without reliable instruction pointer... Alpha is a harsh mistress :) 01:18:43 how about MMIX? 01:18:47 Heh. Make me wish I ever got my alpha box running before I disposed of it, why don't you? 01:19:05 stassats`: Too idealized? Or maybe too interpreted. 01:19:09 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:19:10 MMIX is also very nice - after all, it's got real design when it comes to ISA... 01:19:53 nyef: Not really that idealized - It's a pity no-one implemented it in hardware yet 01:19:54 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 01:19:55 Which is more likely to come in handy on the job, ARM assembler or MMIX assembler? 01:19:59 -!- tessier_ [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:20:30 on the job, ARM. 01:20:41 there is always the question "practical or general and educational" 01:20:42 (Yes, I realize that that's not entirely a good argument. But if you look at it as "which actually exists in silicon", you get the same result.) 01:21:02 Why can't it be all three? 01:21:06 nyef: From that pov, the best choice would be SPARC 01:21:23 nyef, a baseball bat to hit yourself in the face with? 01:21:26 as you can get the schematics 01:21:29 i mean, if those are the only two options 01:21:45 p_l: You could skip some of the cruft and use MIPS. 01:22:14 Also, without Googling I'd bet that there's a free implementation of one of the common 8-bits out there (probably the 80C51) 01:22:32 And working on an 8-bit harvard architecture might do these kids some good. 01:22:43 bem: SPARC is my response to "practical" and "in silicon" :) 01:22:44 sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:22:52 Z80 is available 100% 01:23:37 there is also a project with only one instruction in the whole cpu 01:23:52 Decrement and jump if negative? 01:24:04 I think that was it 01:24:05 Or is it just a VLIW system? 01:24:26 but education can't viewed the same for everyone, for someone it will be practical to use MMIX, and for someone educational to use ARM 01:24:42 I think the only real implementation of a OISC basically turned into a VLIW system by means of pseudo-instructions. 01:25:11 stassats`: If you are going to teach assembly, it ought to be on something that you can bang GPIO pins to make LEDs blink. 01:26:15 bem: yes, that would be intersting for me, but would it be intersting for the others? 01:26:35 bem: Funny, I don't even know where the GPIO ports -are- on the hardware I write ASM for. 01:27:37 stassats`: In my experience, most people get a kick out of making something that does something, even if it's just blinking a light. The people who are better motivated by more abstract concepts are probably self-starters anyway. 01:27:57 nyef: Were you taught, or did you just learn? 01:28:21 I was taught briefly, on an Apple ][... More than a decade ago. 01:28:29 Possibly even two decades ago. 01:28:59 (Good grief, it -was- about two decades ago.) 01:29:06 Since then, I've mostly learnt. 01:30:12 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:30:42 (You can learn a lot by disassembling code for old game consoles, for example. I remeber this one NES clone with a bit-banged PS/2 keyboard port...) 01:31:35 I learned assembly language reading a disassembly of Bill Gates' Basic interpreter in the TRS-80 Model I 01:31:37 I think teaching assembly using NES might be a great way to go 01:31:42 nice and small 01:32:19 two and three-quarters decades ago 01:32:30 The NES video is lousy, though, and the audio system? 01:32:33 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:32:45 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@d288be-152.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:32:47 crod [n=cmell@cad4e7-245.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:33:09 hm, famicom carts routed audio optionally through the cart, didn't they? 01:33:16 Yes, they did. 01:33:28 Hum... I have all my .system in foo/bar howver, (mk:oos :a-system :load) won't find them.. Did I forget to set a variable to point to foo/bar? (I guess yes, but don't know which) 01:33:41 And there were a number of different sound chips used for different games. 01:34:04 Add an analog VCO, VCF, VCA.. use the 2A03 as an envelope generator and away you go. 01:34:16 nevermind the cart would be far more expensive than the NES.... 01:34:30 i ran into someone on irc who worked at raven. i asked him how i could be as cool as him and he told me to buy mastering turbo assembler. 01:34:45 so begins and ends my affair with x86 assembly. 01:34:58 SNES might be more interesting, except for the whole multi-cpu bit... 01:35:16 spc-700 is a weird beast 01:35:23 It's not, actually. 01:35:33 Have a look, it's a mutant 6502. 01:35:40 hmmmm 01:35:48 Possibly the C18 variant. 01:36:03 Axioplase: MK:*CENTRAL-REGISTRY* 01:36:19 But when you break down the instruction encoding, it's a 6502 machine model. 01:36:40 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 01:36:41 bem: cheers. 01:36:50 They reordered the instruction subfields, and they changed up the indirect addressing modes, but it's still 6502 at heart. 01:37:27 (And completely redid the mnemonics, to help hide what they did.) 01:37:28 I managed to convince myself I should be working on more modern devices. 01:37:38 somehow that resulted nothing at all getting done though 01:37:43 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 01:37:45 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 01:38:18 heh, I don't like the default 6502 mnemonics anyway 01:38:21 Drat695 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has joined #lisp 01:38:22 Hrm... I might like to take another stab at a SNES emulator one of these days. 01:38:23 Oaro041 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has joined #lisp 01:38:25 -!- Oaro041 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:38:25 -!- Drat695 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:38:46 I certainly can't do -worse- than my last attempt at it. 01:39:03 I wasn't aware you'd tried.... 01:39:16 It was something like thirteen years ago. 01:39:17 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 01:39:33 in addition to the nes? 01:39:41 Before I tried the NES. 01:39:45 ahhh 01:39:56 you make a lot of emulators, heh. 01:40:13 I was deeply into it for a while. 01:41:00 I think my last "emulator" was that sandmachine from 2006 01:41:31 Heh. I did that one... in July. 01:41:34 The sixth. 01:41:45 nyef: would you being trying JIT compilation of either or both snes cpus? 01:41:57 rather the code running on them 01:42:24 -rw-r--r-- 1 nyef nyef 5279 Jul 6 22:48 icfp2006.lisp 01:42:47 I would probably start with a straight-up per-instruction emulation. 01:43:23 Eormo908 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has joined #lisp 01:43:23 Slat255 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has joined #lisp 01:43:26 computers being so fast and all.. 01:43:39 Umm... Knowing how finicky such systems get, I might even do something in terms of automatically building a state machine so I can step one cycle at a time. 01:43:57 yeah, I still want a good bus-level emulator of the NES 01:44:10 hefner: never fast enough 01:44:37 we need to model each electron bumbling down the traces on the motherboard and all the propagation delays...! 01:45:02 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:46:01 more fun than actually playing the games, at any rate. 01:46:16 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:18 It's really too bad that the x86 can't really do a fast planar->chunky conversion for sufficient bit-depth to implement that scanline-at-once NES PPU I tried once. 01:46:28 certainly, no NES emulator would be complete without accurate simulation of all the dust and grime on the cartridge connector 01:46:58 hefner: That's been a standing joke for years, you know. 01:47:03 has it? 01:47:07 Yeah. 01:47:54 You know how games can reset every second or so if the connector is dirty? 01:47:59 I believe one emulator could connect to the mic so you would have to blow on it 01:48:02 That's actually the security lockout chip. 01:48:17 for that "authentic experience" 01:48:20 and the blank-grey screen is the uninitialized state of the PPU 01:48:50 Hey, neat. Turns out I put my code for the icfp2006 machine at http://www.lisphacker.com/temp/icfp2006.lisp 01:49:17 how fast is it? 01:49:40 Don't know. Fast enough to use. 01:50:22 Feel free to benchmark it if you want. 01:50:33 Probably runs best in SBCL. 01:51:24 had two of them during the contest. A really slow lisp one, originally designed for debugging the .um's. And then a C one when I found that wasn't necessary. 01:51:26 -!- Eormo908 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:51:26 -!- Slat255 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:52:04 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:53:01 nyef: where's the specification? 01:53:23 http://www.boundvariable.org/um-spec.txt 01:53:29 can I give clim text drawn with draw-text a "background" color? 01:53:39 besides changing the background of the pane, of course 01:54:10 slyrus_: Yes, I think so. 01:54:21 any idea how? :) 01:54:30 Umm... Let me check my archives... 01:54:51 inetic pasted "something I'm missing about packages" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70807 01:55:19 -!- hd_ [n=hd_@253.176.233.220.exetel.com.au] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"] 01:56:18 minion: paste 5525? 01:56:18 Paste number 5525: "For nyef" by hefner in #lisp. http://paste.lisp.org/display/5525 01:56:34 inetic: if you don't provide an initial in-package form, it defaults to the value of *package* at the repl 01:56:38 slyrus_: I think this is it. 01:56:45 More or less. 01:56:59 whoa. thanks. 01:57:03 slyrus: you might also just be able to use surrounding-output-with-border 01:57:13 Athi686 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has joined #lisp 01:57:25 I never really documented how all the crazy keywords I added work, mostly because they make no sense 01:57:34 Yeah, this looks like what I have in cyclotron, modulo the (hef:debugf record) line. 01:58:52 dlowe: hmm, and is there any way to change a package localy? 01:59:12 inetic: with in-package? 01:59:26 slyrus: something like (surrounding-output-with-border (stream :shape :rectangle :background +blue+) ...) 02:00:14 dlowe, with anything, just to get rid of having to use foo before the goo 02:00:27 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:01:16 inetic: if you (:use :cl :foo) in your defpackage, it'll work like you want 02:01:38 I think. If I'm understanding your problem. 02:01:59 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 02:02:40 -!- Athi686 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:03:13 hefner: cool! thanks! 02:03:16 The last ICFP contest requiring testing using a livecd was a real turn-off for me. 02:03:45 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 02:04:23 Maybe one of these days I'll actually enter the ICFP contest. 02:04:48 dlowe: you are right, I havent even tried it cause some of the keys are named e.g. 'defmacro and I thought I would have clashes 02:05:43 inetic: (in-package :foo) in defmacro and progn do not what you expect them to do 02:07:03 Yot061 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has joined #lisp 02:07:34 inetic: yeah, in-package is interpreted by the reader so it can intern the symbols read into the right package. It's not done by the compiler 02:08:38 dlowe: Umm... That's not actually true... 02:08:42 nyef: it didn't end up being much trouble 02:08:54 stassats`, I am sorry, but I don't understand 02:09:03 lucca: I guess with modern virtualization it wouldn't be intolerable. 02:09:36 nyef: we didn't develop using the livecd... but we used it later (in virtualization) to test and submit 02:09:49 nyef: Unless you happen to get a cpu that's just one notch too low to have hw virt. :) 02:10:10 p_l: I did. Pissed me off when I realized. 02:10:29 So now it's just an XP box, used primarily for playing freecell and browsing the web. 02:10:38 dlowe, I see, thanks 02:10:45 nyef: me too. Unfortunately I didn't have much to say in terms of university-given laptops 02:11:31 Anyway, it's about time for me to disappear for the evening. 02:11:38 seeing a brand-new laptop work slower than a 2yo one is an interesting experience... 02:11:59 The Vista effect? 02:12:21 Oh well. G'night all. 02:12:23 inetic: ok, nyef called me out correctly. Everything in-package does is also done at compile time 02:12:26 nyef: No. T5550-not-having-VTx effect 02:12:41 *nyef* heads bedwards. 02:13:12 dlowe: if in-package is at toplevel 02:14:32 a friend of mine rescheduled his wedding so not to coincide with icfp2005 :-P 02:15:05 too bad, he is caml weenie 02:16:50 dlowe, stassats` : sorry, last question for today I promise :-), the decision wether goo belongs to foo or bar takes place during reading or during compilation 02:18:41 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:20:59 inetic: for a top level form, it takes place in both 02:21:38 inetic: I've never seen an in-package form not in the top-level, though 02:22:49 dlowe, thanks 02:23:34 jso [n=user@151.159.200.89] has joined #lisp 02:23:40 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:24:06 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 02:24:18 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 02:24:37 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:25:45 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:26:03 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:27:01 -!- fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:28:27 tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has joined #lisp 02:28:40 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 02:35:19 -!- bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:35:32 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:35:37 -!- cpape` [n=user@p5484C93A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 02:36:01 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:54 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:38:18 -!- pragma_ is now known as lalalala 02:38:33 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a6a-191.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:38:40 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:01 -!- crod [n=cmell@cad4e7-245.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:39:53 -!- sctb [n=sctb@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:41:15 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.138] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:41:27 hd_ [n=hd_@253.176.233.220.exetel.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:43:32 -!- lalalala is now known as pragma_ 02:49:51 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:22 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:57:21 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:00:35 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:02:19 fbred [i=bredeli@caracal.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 03:02:59 does it exist a lisp implementation that automatically is paralellized to run on several cores? 03:05:26 you can't automatically parallelize Lisp programs 03:05:57 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 03:05:58 unless many-worlds is true and you have a mechanism for destroying universes 03:06:55 but in that case you have made P=NP and can die a billionaire 03:07:24 so i solve P=NP first, then ask for this implementation? :p 03:07:33 no 03:07:59 (many-worlds + universe destroying machine) implies (P=NP) 03:08:02 ok, i thought it existed some implementation that could analyze the code and paralellize some parts etc, but okay 03:08:07 ah, okey 03:09:03 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:09:09 well, thanks anyway :o) 03:09:54 there is a reason you don't even see pure functional language implementations with such a feature 03:10:15 where theoretically lots of stuff is "trivially parallelizable" 03:11:14 erlang is such a language? 03:12:24 no 03:12:54 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-39-9.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:11 fbred: the problem with autoparallelising recursive programs is that you have too much control overhead/actual work. As for OMP-style annotations (or inference), it mostly takes care of trivial patterns like parallel reduce or parallel map, which are trivial to implement with actual higher order functions (instead of writing loops longhand all the time) 03:13:14 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:13:18 fbred: erlang includes explicit parallelization features, not automatic 03:13:38 thanks for typing the thing I didn't want to type pkhuong ;) 03:13:47 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-58-40.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:14:27 pkhuong, ah, i see 03:15:20 thanks for enlightening me :o) 03:15:42 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 03:18:47 -!- froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:20:50 froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 03:22:23 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 03:27:54 bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:31:12 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:32:36 -!- kpreid___ [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:34:33 -!- keram [n=oof@unaffiliated/keram] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:35:01 (not that it's impossible to parallelise functional programs, but it's more assisted than automatic) 03:37:40 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:38:55 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 03:41:51 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 03:42:11 OT: does anyone know if danb's site is down? "telent"? i wanted to look if he had some sbcl info lying around that i might benefit from reading. 03:48:25 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:25 -!- bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:25 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CF08.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:25 -!- Fade [i=fade@outrider.deepsky.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:25 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:25 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:25 -!- stragerLN [n=strager@c-98-210-158-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:25 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 03:48:25 -!- mbac [i=[TY1IyaH@panix2.panix.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net 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[n=quent@65.183.127.119] has joined #lisp 04:03:00 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:04:28 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:05:21 fusss_ [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:11 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:07:58 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:08:04 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 04:08:17 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:12:03 -!- qbomb [n=quent@65.183.127.119] has left #lisp 04:16:58 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:18:42 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:22:03 stassats [n=stassats@ppp91-122-78-155.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 04:24:39 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:28:01 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 04:28:08 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 04:28:09 clhs package-used-by-list 04:28:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_pkg__1.htm 04:29:26 photon2 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 04:29:28 i wonder if that list could of should be the actual list 04:30:09 that one could manipulate .. except i understand the behavour would need to still be undefined 04:32:07 -!- froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:33:58 froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 04:34:48 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:39:18 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:40:29 happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.216.53] has joined #lisp 04:44:20 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:45:17 -!- Yot061 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:50:31 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:51:37 chillywilly [n=danielb@rrcs-98-100-186-38.central.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:53:21 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:59:41 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:00:07 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.29] has joined #lisp 05:00:27 -!- happycodemonkey [n=carriear@147.226.216.53] has quit ["He who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster. And if you gaze for long into an abyss, the abys"] 05:06:04 cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 05:10:42 benny [n=benny@i577A00FC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:14:06 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:16:20 Bzek_ [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-185.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:16:20 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:00 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:10 Good morning. 05:20:06 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A0E03.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:07 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D203.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:30 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D950.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:25:39 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@138.80-202-254.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 05:26:53 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46139.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:38 tiento [n=user@190.161.45.134] has joined #lisp 05:27:49 -!- tiento [n=user@190.161.45.134] has left #lisp 05:30:15 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:30:39 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 05:33:44 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-185.kosnet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:33:50 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@46.pool85-49-166.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:36:32 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 05:38:24 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:39:54 -!- _Soulman_ [n=kvirc@147.80-202-237.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:40:08 anyone know of a telnet library for lisp? I mean the telnet protocol? 05:41:45 oh nm, I see there is a telnet demon. So no need to port my C++ code. :) 05:42:37 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.89] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:43:47 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47CDC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:44:11 how do I use 'save-lisp-and-die'? 05:44:33 I get an exe that is 24mb, and it won't run because it's too big to fit into memory :S 05:46:22 how much memory do you have? 05:47:02 oh, I see if I do ':executable t', it will at least run :P 05:47:19 hd_: So it wasn't too big. It was not an executable. 05:49:32 kami- [n=user@unaffiliated/kami-] has joined #lisp 05:49:44 good morning 05:49:55 hello kami- 05:53:47 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-87-66.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 06:04:22 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Client Quit] 06:05:02 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 06:08:39 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 06:09:45 -!- elurin [n=user@85.96.232.164] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:10:12 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 06:12:34 -!- kidd [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 06:22:40 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:24:07 hd_: how did you choose the "it won't run because it's too big to fit into memory" diagnosis? 06:24:40 because it said that when I ran it <_< 06:24:42 lol 06:25:53 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-160-51.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:26:00 I can upload the 24mb file if you really want ;) 06:29:20 appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-243.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:31:18 S1100100` [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 06:31:46 -!- S1100100` is now known as S11001001` 06:32:06 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:32:08 -!- S11001001` is now known as S11001001 06:32:59 hd_: what could this be if it wasn't even executable? 06:33:17 s/what/how/ 06:33:18 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:38:14 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:39:47 hd_: did you my any chance change the permissions on it? 06:39:54 phao [n=phao@201.58.133.33] has joined #lisp 06:40:20 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:40:27 on the file that was outputted? 06:40:38 yes 06:41:01 like chmod +x ? 06:41:11 nope 06:41:16 hmm 06:42:03 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 06:43:54 -!- phao [n=phao@201.58.133.33] has quit [Client Quit] 06:44:09 phao [n=phao@201.58.133.33] has joined #lisp 06:48:08 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 06:53:58 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 06:54:46 Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:55:10 -!- phao [n=phao@201.58.133.33] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:56:01 phao [n=phao@20158133033.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 06:57:34 Morning beach. 06:58:14 mornin' beach! 07:01:08 hi everybody! 07:01:26 looks like I'm back to considering writing some prototype-based mojo using the MOP. I need to get myself a copy of AMOP soon. 07:01:36 nullwork_ [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:02:06 sykopomp, indeed you should. Not only do you get the prettiest cover, it even has Lisp code inside! 07:02:17 *sykopomp* drools. 07:02:20 i -love- lisp code. 07:02:35 Haha, and yeah, it has the prettiest cover I've ever seen on a programming book. 07:02:48 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.72.241] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:03:55 athos [n=philipp@p54B87494.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:17 hello tic 07:05:08 hi beach. I left you a bunch of messages yesterday. maybe they're lost now, nothing important though. 07:05:12 *heads off to work, finally* 07:06:03 tic: I think they might be lost. :( 07:12:28 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-25.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 07:14:19 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46139.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:14:59 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46139.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:15:09 crod [n=cmell@cb8a6a-191.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:15:39 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a6a-191.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:17:03 Ogedei [n=user@78.52.231.172] has joined #lisp 07:17:10 brill [n=test@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 07:17:36 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 07:19:50 -!- phao [n=phao@20158133033.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:20:03 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has left #lisp 07:20:26 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-160-51.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:20:45 Aankhen`` [n=Aankhen@122.162.167.223] has joined #lisp 07:22:10 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 07:22:34 evening 07:22:47 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 07:24:21 phao [n=phao@20158133033.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 07:25:29 -!- hd_ [n=hd_@253.176.233.220.exetel.com.au] has quit ["Nettalk6 - www.ntalk.de"] 07:27:16 -!- phao [n=phao@20158133033.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Client Quit] 07:27:54 evening. 07:29:18 hello! 07:32:20 phao [n=phao@20158133033.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 07:35:13 is anyone using wxCL? .. are there any other straightforward (non-experimental) cross-platform GUI libraries? (i.e. not clim) 07:39:01 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 07:39:38 Ogedei: tried ltk? 07:41:09 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:41:16 Draggor: nope, thanks, taking a look 07:42:49 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:44:33 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:45:16 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 07:46:24 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:46:37 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 07:48:55 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 07:49:33 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 07:49:36 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:50:16 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 07:51:26 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 07:53:13 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:55:16 hd_ [n=hd_@253.176.233.220.exetel.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:01:29 good morning 08:03:00 morning 08:07:11 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit ["bla"] 08:07:56 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 08:11:05 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 08:13:34 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:14:23 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:17:27 -!- ivanst [i=ivans@93-141-69-53.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:21:55 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:23:21 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:25:42 Snenn232 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has joined #lisp 08:28:08 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:29:19 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:29:38 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:29:58 Good morning. 08:30:24 morning spiaggia 08:32:49 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:34:58 hello spiaggia 08:35:23 xinming [n=hyy@218.73.134.46] has joined #lisp 08:40:45 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 08:45:31 joga_ [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 08:49:49 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:51:20 avodonosov [n=Miranda@212.98.174.94] has joined #lisp 08:53:06 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.72.241] has joined #lisp 08:54:44 lichtblau [n=user@147.67.241.226] has joined #lisp 08:55:49 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:57:13 'hello 08:57:22 hello trebor_dki 08:58:25 -!- joga_ is now known as joga 09:00:15 lispm [n=joswig@e177121168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:00:39 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:02:56 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:03:01 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:03:05 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:03:36 hi spiaggia 09:03:42 (Greetings from Brussels.) 09:05:07 hi spiaggia 09:06:03 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Client Quit] 09:06:35 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:06:47 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 09:08:05 *spiaggia* vanishes to give his last lecture of the semester. 09:08:20 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:08:29 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 09:08:35 spiaggia, congrats! good luck. 09:08:51 thanks! 09:09:21 hello lichtblau 09:10:05 lichtblau: is there a source repository of atdoc or is the tgz at the site the version which one is supposed to use? 09:10:42 the tgz is ancient, I recommend the git version from http://www.lichteblau.com/git/ 09:10:51 lichtblau: thank you 09:11:09 but note that it also needs way more dependencies, so you'll also have to get cxml from git, xuriella, plexippus-xpath from darcs, etc 09:11:50 (even if you don't use clbuild, you might want to peek at http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/clbuild/wnpp-projects to find out where all those repositories are) 09:11:59 lichtblau: atdoc is a very nice tool 09:12:56 l_a_m: thanks. I think it would be even better as just one small part of a more modular design that doesn't force everyone to use actual atdoc syntax. 09:14:13 lichtblau: there is no atdoc's tag to comment that a method raise a condition ? 09:14:43 hmm, no there isn't, but it sounds like a very good idea 09:15:51 prowack- [n=ask@modemcable245.154-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 09:17:14 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:18:41 lichtblau: I think I should be using clbuild. there is nothing about xuriella and plexippus-xpath on the wnpp-projects page. 09:19:01 *kami-* wanted to try clbuild anyway 09:19:05 -!- BrianRice-mb is now known as BrianRice 09:19:52 oh, right. I already moved them from /wnpp-projects to /projects 09:20:53 lichtblau: thanks. 09:24:44 ivanst [i=ivans@93-141-69-53.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:26:14 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.240.167] has joined #lisp 09:30:26 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.72.241] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:30:48 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.72.241] has joined #lisp 09:31:32 tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:33:37 -!- prowack [n=ask@modemcable245.154-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:34:16 -!- Snenn232 [n=blabra@linky.hu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:34:38 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:34:39 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:37:05 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.134.46] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:40:10 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 09:41:56 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:44:58 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-75-75.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 09:46:03 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:46:54 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:48:14 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:50:12 prowack [n=ask@modemcable245.154-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 09:52:10 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 09:52:45 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:54:41 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C220.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:01:12 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.143.128] has joined #lisp 10:03:33 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 10:05:21 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 10:07:23 -!- prowack- [n=ask@modemcable245.154-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:09:45 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:10:30 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2D034.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:11:29 Is SBCL (or any other lisp compiler) an optimizing compiler? 10:11:44 yes 10:11:48 -!- segv_ is now known as segv 10:11:49 Quadrescence: SBCL does some optimizations 10:12:07 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:13:27 ilSignorCarlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:13:34 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.167] has joined #lisp 10:13:48 splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has joined #lisp 10:13:49 morning 10:14:34 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.240.167] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:17:22 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:18:18 Quadrescence: in Common Lisp, you can set the optimization levels with (declare (optimize (speed ?) (space ?) (debug ?) (safety ?))) ; all the implementations support this declaration. 10:18:34 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 10:18:45 ( ? may be a digit from 0 to 3 ) 10:19:10 matimago: So I presume that's in the CL spec? 10:19:35 Quadrescence: no presumption needed - you can look it up! 10:19:47 clhs optimize 10:19:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/d_optimi.htm 10:21:10 Quadrescence: there are also other declarations that help compiler make optimizations: type declarations, (the .. ..) forms, dynamic-extent declarations 10:21:27 HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 10:21:51 I bet lack of this, and poor code are what make people think lisp is slow. 10:22:48 People think Lisp is slow because they've mistaken interactive compiler with interpreter. 10:22:50 I bet it's other things. I think the people who think lisp is slow have never actually seen lisp code run. 10:23:24 tic: That's true too. 10:24:12 (functions entered at the repl are compiled by default in sbcl) 10:24:26 to machine code, nonetheless! 10:25:20 <_3b> also, some lisps are slow, and people don't realize there are other options 10:26:34 It is permissible to sing Scatman songs in here, right? :D 10:26:48 Quadrescence: No. 10:27:10 minion: Is singing allowed? 10:27:11 maybe 10:27:30 Wait for the Lisp Idol auditions 10:27:42 My god. That would be an awful show. 10:28:01 minion: more chant! 10:28:01 chant me harder 10:28:10 I'd get on stage and blind everyone with my good build and natural beauty, and you guys would be lost in the competition :( 10:28:24 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:28:59 I am dumb; I thought Scatman John had a lisp for a moment, when really he has a stutter. 10:29:27 l_a_m: I just pushed support for @see-condition 10:29:30 Hahaha. 10:32:56 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 10:33:06 *tic* wonder which artists have a Limp.... 10:33:23 Most rappers ? 10:33:40 schme: Hahah 10:35:26 lichtblau: great 10:35:28 schme, does it follow that I'm a rapper? 10:35:41 Less yapping, more coding. 10:37:32 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:37:52 msingh [n=user@203.171.123.8.dynamic.rev.aanet.com.au] has joined #lisp 10:38:14 is there a good library for writing a SOAP/XML client? 10:41:16 not as far as I know 10:41:36 cl-soap works for extremely simple queries but not for the ones I asked about a couple of months ago 10:41:48 oh damn. thanks. 10:42:08 lichtblau: Condition Types Signalled: .... 10:42:13 lichtblau: works nice ~ 10:42:18 lichtblau: thanks 10:42:25 what is the most elegant way to shut up SBCL about defconstants with string values? 10:42:29 msingh: we just emit some xml using cl-quasi-quote and use drakma to get it and cxml to parse it... works fine (for simple usecases, though) 10:43:10 Ogedei: cl-def's (def (constant :test 'string=) ...) or alexandria:define-constant 10:43:53 not using defconstant with string values 10:44:01 attila_lendvai: well, i'm just fixing someone else's code, and i'd rather not add dependencies 10:44:13 right, i can just change it to be a defvar instead 10:44:55 or define-symbol-macro 10:45:17 Time to try to make a maze generator in lisp. :D 10:45:24 (if there was some kind of performance reason for it being a constant in the first place) 10:46:52 mega1 [n=mega@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:46:53 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CF08.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:46:55 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 10:47:28 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CF08.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:51:13 l_a_m: keep the feature requests coming. I've got a lot of talks to ignore today, so I can get some hacking done while "listening" :-) 10:52:17 lichtblau, what are you not listening to? 10:53:02 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:55:41 -!- hd_ [n=hd_@253.176.233.220.exetel.com.au] has left #lisp 10:57:05 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.167] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:57:18 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.167] has joined #lisp 10:57:36 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:58:58 tic: AI guys basically talking about an expert system interchange format they standardized 10:59:06 s/they/we/ 10:59:32 "university". That's how I interchange my expertise 10:59:33 oh wait 10:59:52 Not entirely uninteresting, but we had a rehearsal for this meeting yesterday, so we already saw all the talks. 10:59:58 lichtblau, alright. 11:01:22 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 11:03:45 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 11:07:02 ths [n=ths@X759e.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 11:08:31 _8david [n=user@147.67.241.226] has joined #lisp 11:14:18 attila_lendvai: how do you make the requests.. what library do you use? 11:14:47 drakma 11:15:08 attila_lendvai: cool. my needs are very simple.. i just need to make a request and dont care for nor expect a response 11:15:49 although i would be more happy using something iolib based, because drakma uses usocket, which uses sb-bsd-sockets, which causes us headaches once in a while... 11:15:58 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 11:16:18 msingh: then get a lib that helps generating xml, fire up drakma, and you're done. 11:16:40 attila_lendvai: thanks! i'll give that a try :) 11:19:13 if your needs are that simple, then cl-soap might well work for you 11:19:30 Xof: noted 11:24:37 -!- lichtblau [n=user@147.67.241.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:29:40 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 11:29:51 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:31:39 -!- _8david [n=user@147.67.241.226] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:33:09 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 11:38:46 kiuma [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:38:57 hello lispers 11:39:27 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:41:22 -!- bpt [i=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:45:43 I'm dense today, why does #+#.(oddp 1) 1 complain about :ODDP not being a function? 11:46:12 tcr: you need to cl:oddp everything in #+ 11:46:45 ll 11:47:09 oh #+ invokes the recursive read operation with *package* bound to :keyword 11:47:17 ok makes sense 11:48:10 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:48:30 and, i think, *read-supress* bound to t 11:54:17 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 12:00:44 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 12:01:53 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-204-153-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 12:02:26 bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-174-7.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:02:36 derekv [n=derek@noogenesis.resnet.mtu.edu] has joined #lisp 12:04:09 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 12:07:28 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:07:41 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E4AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:22 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 12:09:30 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:10:10 hello 12:11:28 hello fe[nl]ix 12:11:57 hi spiaggia 12:12:47 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 12:14:03 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:16:15 yay snow. :) 12:16:27 It's so sad to sit inside with snow. Maybe one should go out with ze laptop :) 12:16:39 yeah, right. 12:16:56 <_3b> spiaggia: does sicl have a LOOP macro, or just pieces for building it? 12:17:03 how can I read a line and store the strings in a list where whitespace separates the strings? Like: (read) "hello world says I" => ("hello" "world" "says" "I") 12:17:17 _3b: I did the syntax analysis, but it doesn't generate code yet. 12:17:22 clhs read-line 12:17:22 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_lin.htm 12:17:37 bertskert: that, and cl-ppcre or cl-split (?) 12:17:46 <_3b> spiaggia: ok, just wanted to make sure i wasn't looking in the wrong place or something :) 12:18:00 bertskert: or whatever you want to use to split the string into words. 12:18:06 _3b: I understand. :) 12:18:49 (if it wasn't for all the water that would get in it :( 12:19:53 bertskert: look for SPLIT-SEQUENCE 12:20:15 bertskert: what tcr says instead of cl-split 12:21:19 okay 12:24:37 it doesn't work on allegro CL 8.1? isn't that for emacs with slime (i don't remember the name)? 12:25:01 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:25:40 What is "it"? 12:25:49 SPLIT-SEQUENCE 12:25:55 (split-sequence:SPLIT-SEQUENCE #\Space "A stitch in time saves nine.") 12:29:59 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:30:35 What does it return for you? 12:30:47 undefined function 12:31:23 Uh, well, did you load the split-sequence code? 12:31:48 how do I do that? 12:32:22 bertskert: allegro comes with a regular expression package that you could use 12:32:24 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:32:38 open the file split-sequence.lisp and then do whatever it takes in the allegro ide to load a file 12:32:55 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:32:58 alternatively use (load "/path/split-sequence") 12:34:06 okay, I got the file. but is there some other way to do this in standard allegro? (just curious) when there's no need to download any more packages? 12:34:19 bertskert: did you read what i wrote? 12:34:38 bertskert: consider looking into the allegro manual. it is extensive and well written in most areas. 12:35:53 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:36:27 ok, thx! 12:39:41 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.167] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:42:00 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:43:01 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 12:43:44 Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 12:44:23 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.167] has joined #lisp 12:44:42 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 12:46:37 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:57 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:49:49 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-32-123-243.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [] 12:51:00 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:09 H4ns2 [n=Hans@p57BB9A94.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:51:23 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9A21.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:51:27 -!- H4ns2 is now known as H4ns 12:53:22 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 12:56:17 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:18 tfeb [n=tfb@212.183.134.65] has joined #lisp 13:05:12 gko [n=gko@220-132-4-34.HINET-IP.hinet.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:32 plage [n=user@cleo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 13:09:42 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-1-5.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:10:17 Good afternoon. 13:10:26 -!- phao [n=phao@20158133033.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:11:13 Yay, a group of students at the engineering school chose a Lisp-based project (OpenMusic) suggested by Antoine Allombert. 13:11:22 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 13:11:32 I am waiting for them right now. 13:11:34 nice. 13:12:01 Oh, it's Mr. Beach. 13:12:06 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B87494.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:12:27 Of course! 13:13:09 Plaze in Polish, that's how I got it. (I don't know French) 13:13:17 (probably similar pronounciation?) 13:13:38 tic: but you know italian? 13:14:12 -!- yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:14:15 plage, I don't, however, I remember the meaning of that specific word. :) 13:14:34 -!- Bzek_ [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-185.kosnet.ru] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:15:38 yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has joined #lisp 13:15:40 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 13:16:36 plage, how does OM fit in with GS? 13:16:43 (or is that G# in short?) 13:17:38 tic: I call it Ab. 13:17:42 wormil [n=Miranda@adsl-070-155-056-058.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:17:44 luis, :)) 13:18:03 luis: you are assuming temperate tuning! 13:18:09 *tic* notices few songs use Ab, whereas Bb is used everywhere. 13:18:32 plage: I play the double bass. I assume no tuning. 13:18:42 -!- wormil [n=Miranda@adsl-070-155-056-058.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:18:55 luis: you don't tune your instrument? 13:19:11 luis: oh, but no frets, huh? 13:19:15 plage: right. 13:19:38 I _can't_ tune his instrument. bit of a loss. :/ 13:19:41 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:19:42 s/his/my. 13:21:36 tic: Bb is an easy tonality for a wide range of instruments, I think. Maybe? 13:22:39 Does SLIME work with C 13:22:43 er, CMUCL 13:22:50 19a on Sun servers? 13:22:58 phao [n=phao@20158133033.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 13:23:03 Or, alternatively, does SBCL run on Suns? 13:23:34 luis, I think it's part of some scale, but I'm not skilled enough to tell. I've noticed, however, that many real saxophones are tuned in Bb. (I have a Xaphoon in C) 13:23:41 slime was initially written mostly for cmucl, plage. 13:24:09 OK, so I'll recommend that the students install SLIME because they don't seem to know about it. 13:24:47 You have to make sure it's a recent cmucl version, though. There were problems for some version in the past (on x86 at least) 13:26:43 ejs_ [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 13:26:57 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:28:15 How recent is 19a? 13:28:36 plage: not at all 13:28:52 Ah, OK. 13:30:42 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello080109123012.9.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:33:42 nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:34:46 SBCL runs on Suns 13:34:55 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:36:35 Krystof: I was just checking that. I think I'll recommend the install SBCL insteac, because they claim CMUCL is very hard to install. 13:36:49 -!- Dawgmatix [n=Dawgmati@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has left #lisp 13:37:15 plage: cmucl is hard to compile. installation is easy. 13:37:34 what H4ns says 13:37:45 I see, OK. 13:38:01 I'll let them install both. It couldn't hurt. 13:40:22 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 13:41:37 H4ns: I'm thinking (well, hoping really) that calling sb-ext:run-program with :wait nil fixes my hunchentoot problems 13:42:56 slyrus: i hope so! keep us posted. 13:43:07 ok, will do. thanks. 13:48:29 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:30 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:49:43 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:50:47 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 13:53:12 -!- ejs_ [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:54:00 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:00:34 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.29] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:00:42 -!- brill [n=test@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [] 14:01:45 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-59-181.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 14:02:27 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:02:57 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:06:25 user__ [n=user@p549248DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:07:21 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@142.204.133.123] has joined #lisp 14:07:35 HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:08:39 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:08:57 <_3b> plage: i think sicl's TYPECASE has the same bug CASE did (using clauses where it should be clause) 14:09:58 *user__* was just curious if there is something as APPLY in perl 14:11:35 nagi [n=nagi@195.248.67.249] has joined #lisp 14:12:26 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:52 _3b: you are no doubt right :( 14:20:57 <_3b> COND, AND, OR, WHEN, UNLESS seem to work though :) 14:21:06 phew! 14:21:13 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209.6.216.149] has quit [] 14:21:23 neurogeek||m [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has joined #lisp 14:21:59 -!- neurogeek||m [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:22:48 <_3b> plage: does your FORMAT use CLOS at runtime or just for compilation? 14:23:13 -!- Cryovat [i=isis@akuma.no] has left #lisp 14:23:57 *tic* seems to remember it uses it at runtime too, the interpreter vs compile forms. but not sure. 14:26:25 FORMAT should use CLOS only at compile time, as far as I remember. 14:27:04 <_3b> ah, guess it needs compiler-macro support for that though 14:27:17 _3b: yes, it's in there. 14:27:51 <_3b> i mean the compiler needs compiler-macros :) 14:28:19 _3b: right, but that's in the standard, so I don't consider that a problem. 14:29:08 _3b: the FORMAT code should contain a compiler macro that checks whether the format-control is a string, and then calls the FORMAT compiler. 14:29:10 <_3b> right, just means I can't try it yet 14:29:18 ah, sorry :) 14:30:39 *_3b* looks for any easy to compile stuff in iteration.lisp 14:31:57 ivanst_ [i=ivans@78-1-144-216.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 14:32:51 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 14:33:38 _3b: if you don't have compiler macros, all you will see is a slowdown because you will do the compilation at runtime. 14:33:53 <_3b> plage: no CLOS at runtime 14:34:08 ouch! 14:34:20 <_3b> heh, i don't even have working return-from :p 14:35:04 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:36:11 <_3b> or multiple values, conditions, throw, setf, etc :) 14:37:54 _3b, what are you doing? 14:38:20 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 14:38:23 <_3b> trying to write a compiler from something resembling common lisp to avm2 (flash 9+) bytecode 14:39:36 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:40:40 -!- plage [n=user@cleo.labri.fr] has left #lisp 14:40:59 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 14:41:55 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:42:09 I can't inspect internal/external symbols in slime inspector. Is this specific to lisp implementation? ( I have emacs+sbcl+slime and following Marco Baringer's video :)) ) 14:43:14 <_3b> nagi: should work, are you using recent slime and sbcl? 14:43:14 -!- ivanst [i=ivans@93-141-69-53.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:44:06 _3b: slime is from CVS, sbcl is from port ( in BSD) 14:44:33 <_3b> nagi: (lisp-implementation-version) ? 14:44:59 <_3b> nagi: also, are you loading slime contribs? 14:45:10 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:45:13 *_3b* doesn't remember which features of slime are loaded by default 14:46:16 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:46:47 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:47:51 -!- HET2 [n=diman@chello084114129176.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:49:13 _3b: 1.0.17 14:49:23 nagi: make sure to use the slime-fancy contrib. 14:49:39 nagi: Place (slime-setup '(slime-fancy slime-asdf)) into your .emacs 14:50:10 tcr, _3b: ok, let me try it 14:50:12 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 14:51:56 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 14:52:47 -!- froog___ is now known as froog 14:53:28 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:02 _3b, tcr: tank you all, it works :) 14:54:33 Does anyone know whether there is a problem with the X server on MacOS 10.5 (leopard)? 14:54:55 spiaggia: a lot of problems, yes. 14:55:09 We can execute our CLIM Pacman application OK on Linux, and it seems that it worked on 10.3 (panther). 14:55:20 So this is perfectly, er, normal, then. 14:55:53 Is there a semi-easy fix? 14:56:06 spiaggia: In the X11.app Preferences I let it accept network connections, then I use export DISPLAY=:0.0 it's better than when it use its *launch* display. 14:56:28 matimago: apparently, that's already done. 14:56:33 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [Client Quit] 14:57:18 If I had time I would compile/port Xnest on MacOSX to have something usable... 14:57:45 I don't understand what's so hard; I'd be Apple does it on purpose to dissuade us to use X11. 14:57:50 s/be /bet/ 14:58:10 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:58:15 matimago: thanks! 14:58:34 spiaggia: what is or are the failure modes? 14:59:05 Xof: some menus are not visible, and the screen isn't updated as fast as we expected. 14:59:29 Xof: it seem to react very slowly or not at all to events. 14:59:40 -!- Ogedei [n=user@78.52.231.172] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:59:42 Perhaps you mean 'as soon as expected'? 14:59:57 matimago: could be yes. 15:00:13 spiaggia: OK, I have not encountered that one 15:00:57 Xof: OK, too bad. In addition, the application is not kill-able C-c C-c from SLIME so there seems to be some event overload going on. 15:02:00 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:04:02 spiaggia: perhaps an XFlush or XSync call is missing? 15:04:36 can I translate a symbol to a string in some way? 15:04:49 'hellothere => "hellothere" 15:04:56 bertskert: with string or symbol-name 15:05:07 matimago: OK, that's possible. 15:05:27 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:05:28 But when you read 'hellothere with the default settings, you get an expression that, when evaluated, returns the symbol named "HELLOTHERE", not "hellothere". 15:05:57 -!- sellout is now known as Guest40648 15:06:24 bertskert: so try '|hellothere|, or (SETF (READTABLE-CASE *READTABLE*) :PRESERVE) or STRING-DOWNCASE instead of STRING. 15:06:34 -!- Guest40648 is now known as sellout 15:06:39 \o/ 15:07:45 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-206-230.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:10:17 -!- user__ [n=user@p549248DA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:21:11 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:12 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:22:45 milanj [n=milan@79.101.149.216] has joined #lisp 15:25:22 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:25:53 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:26:04 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:33:08 [Head|Rest] [i=kvirc@217.149.187.55] has joined #lisp 15:33:31 does anyone here knows a book about abstractions? talking about the, explaining them, making them, etc? 15:34:03 phao: There's Goedel, Escher, Bach 15:34:37 dlowe, those are the authors? 15:34:45 phao: that's the name of the book 15:34:49 lol 15:35:00 haha 15:35:09 tmi [n=user@213.151.151.8] has joined #lisp 15:35:13 mindCrime [n=chatzill@216.27.62.2] has joined #lisp 15:35:27 http://www.amazon.com/Godel-Escher-Bach-Eternal-Golden/dp/0465026567 this one? 15:35:27 phao: You could also read Aristotle's "Categories" 15:35:33 phao: yep. that one 15:40:44 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:41:20 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:42:21 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46139.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 15:44:14 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go home"] 15:45:41 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46139.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:12 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.143.128] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:12 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46139.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:48:39 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E46139.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:33 -!- yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has quit ["  ."] 15:51:02 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:51:02 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-25.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:52:13 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska153183.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:53:21 kefka [n=user@ec2-67-202-38-234.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 15:54:49 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska153183.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:57:24 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 16:01:07 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:01:38 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:02:11 kidd [n=kidd@129.Red-88-17-163.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:32 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 16:03:08 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 16:09:21 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:09:21 minion: tell phao about sicp 16:09:22 phao: look at sicp: Structure and Interpretation of Computer Programs, a CS textbook using Scheme. Available gratis from (HTML), (texinfo) and (XHTML, PDF). Accompanying video lectures are available gratis at 16:09:33 phao: SICP is about abstractions. 16:10:21 ok. 16:13:32 -!- kefka is now known as kefka-the-great 16:15:59 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 16:16:41 willb [n=wibenton@wireless06.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:18:11 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0C5F1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:36 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 16:19:14 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.149.216] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:19:47 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:20:29 -!- phao [n=phao@20158133033.user.veloxzone.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:20:32 epoch [n=FAIL@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 16:20:39 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:23:02 H4ns: Are you satisfied with blogspot? 16:23:02 -!- tfeb [n=tfb@212.183.134.65] has quit [] 16:23:33 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:23:58 tcr: "satisfied" is a big word. the template i use is broken, but it is pretty easy to fix things. i should propably use a blogging client instead of using the html interface. 16:24:12 tcr: so yes, for my small blogging needs it does okay. 16:24:58 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177121168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:25:54 I'm looking for a means to swap out knowledge. Making it accessible for the general public seems to be plus. 16:26:01 -!- ilSignorCarlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:26:25 -!- bem is now known as chandler 16:27:10 stassats [n=stassats@ppp91-122-78-155.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 16:27:24 phao [n=phao@20158133033.user.veloxzone.com.br] has joined #lisp 16:28:54 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:31:54 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:33:29 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 16:35:40 dabd [n=dabd@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 16:35:56 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:36:07 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CF08.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:36:25 pilot1123 [i=pilot@bobo.ds5.agh.edu.pl] has joined #lisp 16:38:10 -!- nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:38:21 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:41:04 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:07 -!- splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 16:41:41 tcr: sure. it "works" well, but maybe some other blog host is less clumsy 16:42:14 mulligan [n=user@e178045029.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 16:42:44 -!- p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:42:51 tcr: like in "has templates that make look sane, 
 formatting that works for code, better ui that tells you that you can save your draft without annoyingly warning you with popups when you decide you want to post later etc."
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16:43:14  tcr: i guess many blogspot users just use some blogging client and never see all that garbage.
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16:58:27  where can i find a job that will pay me to write in lisp all day, at my own pace and leisure, without concern for "results" or "real-world applicability"
16:58:30  that's the job for me
16:59:17  mbac, streamtech.nl
16:59:23  I did an internship there over the summer
16:59:41  oh, but of course you have to write for a certain programme :)
17:00:11  you misunderstood
17:00:18  mbac: such jobs, similar to jobs as a masturbator, are very rare!
17:00:43  H4ns: there seems to be an Emacs client available, I'll check that out.
17:00:55  tcr: cool, please keep me posted!
17:01:26  i want a job that does noting useful for the organization AND nothing useful for society
17:01:34  not just the later
17:01:42  s/noting/nothing/
17:02:48 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp
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17:03:37  mbac, why don't you just grow your own food and then not have to work?
17:03:38  mbac, try applying for CEO somewhere
17:04:28  jpcooper, i'm too important to manage my own time
17:04:32  i prefer to have others plan my schedule
17:04:38 p8m [n=dmm@mattlimech.com] has joined #lisp
17:04:41  mbac, I demand that you grow your own food
17:04:47  now where's my money?
17:05:00  write a lisp program to write a lisp program to manage his time and grow his food
17:05:13  hey, that could be a lucrative programme
17:05:15  CEO's a fabulous idea
17:05:16 *jpcooper* patents it
17:05:18 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp
17:05:25  mbac: You should try finance if the "nothing useful for society" criterion has high value.
17:05:31 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"]
17:05:38  is anyone here in finance?
17:05:40  mbac: It pays quite well.
17:05:52  I'd be interested in doing a trading internship
17:05:52  I was in finance for 14 months.
17:05:53  i know some people who work in finance
17:05:56 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-128-145.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp
17:05:57  i'm in finance right now
17:05:58 dthomp [n=dat@12.157.240.2] has joined #lisp
17:05:58  all they talk about is how much money they make
17:06:00  kefka-the-great, did you do trading?
17:06:05  I was a quant trader.
17:06:07  mbac: i've been looking for exactly the same job
17:06:14  "why should i care about writing correct code when I make $200,000 a year", they say
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17:06:15 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"]
17:06:16  as soon as you get into real world programming, everything starts to suck
17:06:17  then i stop talking to them
17:06:19  kefka-the-great, are you in university?
17:06:26  At a hedge fund using Ocaml (this might out the fund).
17:06:31  I'm not.
17:06:36  aah, was this Jane St Capital?
17:06:39  Yes.
17:06:43  my job is utterly worthless to society but the principals demand results
17:06:55  mbac, I commend you
17:06:57  mbac: maybe you should demand results from them?
17:06:59  If you're interested in talking about it offline, you can send me an email.
17:07:06  kefka-the-great, thanks
17:07:14  magus.pwnsen@gmail.com
17:07:14  hahaha
17:07:50  Finance is an odd place.
17:08:10  Quants I have some respect for, and a lot of respect for the good ones.
17:08:10  odd in what way
17:08:34  On one hand, it appears to be overcompensated... but you also have really, really smart people doing boring things.
17:08:49  my job actually has negative impact on society
17:08:56  Then again, IBD/M&A douchebags actually are overcompensated.
17:08:58  it's true web 2.0: we steal data
17:08:58  koning_robot, lawyer?
17:09:23  heh
17:09:27  i used to work for doubleclick
17:09:33  koning_robot, stop showing off
17:09:47  some court banned us from collecting IP addresses, so we gave each client a cookie with a GUID instead
17:10:05  oh, that's nothing
17:10:13  (and put the GUID in the web log with the IP address, which was legal)
17:10:15  we resort to tor when our hammering scripts are blocked
17:10:30  excellent
17:10:48  that's not true web 2.0, though
17:11:04  if it were true web 2.0, users could give you their bandwidth
17:11:04  oh.. in that case, it's 3.0
17:11:08  I find finance strange because of the detachment between it and reality... yet it has the power to drive reality.
17:11:10  and they could add tags, and be served ads
17:11:16  also, rounded corners
17:11:17  haha yeah
17:11:20  do you have rounded corners?
17:11:27  umm... i think we do actually
17:11:49  no wait, we don't
17:12:02  you are so un-cool
17:12:07  Could we return to #lisp, please?
17:12:27  (define-something-uncool 'koning_robot)
17:12:28  the only job i had which was tightly attached to reality was developing a gay sex hookup site
17:12:31  hey tcr
17:12:47  looks like i can come to the munich meeting :)
17:13:12  you're the one from Augsburg?
17:13:34  users paid money (seriously) to enable a "sex on demand"/"boy du jour" lifestyle
17:13:45  mbac: Please stop talking about it.
17:13:50 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
17:13:54  it was the only time i felt rather proud of my work
17:14:09  tcr: yep
17:14:20  that's gruesome
17:14:29  Hun: Nice. Hope I'll be able to teach you something new
17:14:40  don't worry, since then i've become much more detached from reality
17:15:09  was it written in lisp?
17:15:10  i'm looking forward to it.
17:15:21  i'm not allowed to talk about it
17:15:35  anymore
17:17:36  clearly ahaas was referring to the lifestyle, not the implementation details of the app ;)
17:17:48  in that case, it was written in perl
17:17:52  sounds to me like mbac wants to go into research
17:17:54  I was referring to the off-topic discussion.
17:18:29  will they demand results in research?
17:19:20 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx08721.chantva.wayport.net] has joined #lisp
17:19:31  no, only papers
17:19:49  i can make papers
17:20:03  you can also apparently write papers about how you don't like certain ideas
17:20:19  like this month's CACM and "haha, STM sucks, use threads, LALALALALA"
17:20:28  Academia is so dead. I don't want to even think about that.
17:20:55  What happened to Wall Street in 2008 has been happening to the academic job market every year since 1980.
17:23:19  getting billions of dollars for doing nothing? man, you're harsh
17:23:31  what about europe?
17:24:02  Could you please discuss this elsewhere, #misc or something like that.
17:24:51  I think mbac is flame.
17:25:12  Then let's ignore him.
17:25:16  nevermind.
17:25:16  Anyway, I agree with the motion to end the non-Lisp discussion.
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17:27:40  Good evening.
17:28:04  Hello beach.
17:28:55  ahoy
17:30:07  I have this feeling that I need to replace cl-vectors by a faster rendering engine in order to have a fast enough framebuffer backend for McCLIM.
17:30:36  Or make cl-vectors faster?
17:30:46  tcr: possibly, yes.
17:30:50  Bah. Just put hardware accelleration hooks.
17:31:31  Even just rendering a triangle give like 25 different cases it seems.
17:31:59 ivanst [i=ivans@78-1-144-216.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp
17:32:10  ... How? If memory serves, the playstation has something like three triangle rasterization commands.
17:32:43  beach: this is what I was originally saying a couple weeks ago, about something efficient :)
17:33:05 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
17:33:06  nyef: I wasn't talking about the interface, but the implementation: 1) the triangle is entirely within a pixel, 2) the top of the triangle is within a pixel.  etc. etc.
17:33:23  ... Right.
17:33:52  The code is just horrible, but admittedly straightforward.
17:34:28  Then on top of that, one needs to triangulate convex polygons (which is not that hard, but equally messy).
17:35:00  Finally, one needs to divide non-convex polygons into convex parts that can be rendered separately, and that seems to be a hard problem in computational geometry.
17:35:02 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Connection timed out]
17:35:34  Though I am sure some approximate solution would work just fine for what I need.
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17:42:06  hefner: I forget what you said exactly, but that must have been what tipped me off.
17:43:20  But I was just blabbing really to make sure the discussion got back on topic.
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17:43:45  beach, McCLIM already has a cairo backend and the point of what you're doing is to do it in pure lisp right?
17:44:19  xan__: You are assuming there is a point with what I am doing, but that sounds about right.
17:44:42  xan__: as one colleague of mine put it, or job is to understand things, and that's mostly what I am doing.
17:45:10  xan__: It's great if that process generates something useful, but that's not a goal in itself.
17:45:37  beach, sounds like a good philosophy for life in general
17:46:07  I agree.  It's easy to forget it sometimes, though, and one has to force oneself to get back on the path.
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17:49:42  Like right now I am trying to understand why we use subpixel anti-aliasing (in the sense of the general filtering algorithm that makes everything fuzzy), whereas my experiments show that you can often use 1/3 pixel positioning without filtering with no visible color distortion.
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17:50:25  funny, it never occured to me to try that for anything other than text
17:51:15  hefner: it is mostly adapted to text though, because of the near-vertical lines in text fonts.
17:52:09  beach: I, for one, think it would be cool to have nice anti-aliased lines with the CLX backend
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17:52:56  slyrus_: Sure, I just don't know how to do it efficiently, but I might find a way one day.
17:53:28  slyrus_: Oh, you mean general (as opposed to sub-pixel) antialiasing?  That's much easier.
17:53:38  yeah
17:53:45  slyrus_: On the other hand, it's contrary to the X11 spec!
17:53:50  oh, really?
17:53:52  huh.
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17:54:22  I am pretty sure they mention exactly what pixels should be totally effected or not at all by the line-drawing primitive.
17:54:25  it would be fun to make my svg render go fast, though it would mean making a huge mess of vecto and cl-vectors such that no one would probably accept the result :)
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17:55:23  slyrus_: ... with the usual possibility that my memory is horrible so that I might be misremembering things.
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17:56:30  slyrus_: Now, CLIM doesn't have such restrictions, so we could use some strange twisted version of the CLX backend to accomplish what you want.
17:56:56  Dinner, I'll be back later!
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18:04:42  Just a quick question on the "best" way to do something trivial: aliasing a symbol from another package. Is there an aliasing :import-from?
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18:05:36  e.g. if I want to import a:b as 'c.
18:05:55  Ugh. The Vim ECL is giving me headaches.  Evaluating code in a selected range works, sourcing a file that does :ecl << EOF (foo) EOF seems not to be executed.
18:06:04  anyone using cl-muproc?
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18:07:29  kefka-the-great: you can't generally alias symbols
18:07:31  kefka-the-great: there is no such thing as aliasing a symbol
18:07:49  kefka-the-great: fsvo "alias", you can use (define-symbol-macro c 'a:b)
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18:11:37  kefka-the-great: If you want to have a function under a different name, you can use (setf (fdefinition 'c) (fdefinition 'a:b)). Depending on your implementation, you may want an explicit DEFUN form rather.
18:12:56  tcr: Thanks. Yeah, I'm importing functions with generic-ish names (e.g. connect) and don't want collisions in the future.
18:13:08  This is more of a "good form" question; I'm trying to do what's best.
18:13:22  Symbol-macros don't seem to work as desired for functions.
18:13:47  kefka-the-great: Perhaps you should not :USE the package at all, but rather access its symbol with an explicit package qualifier
18:14:18 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-101d36504565486d] has joined #lisp
18:14:20  E.g. (define-symbol-macro five 5) will lead to (+ 4 five) => 9, but (define-symbol-macro plus +) will not lead to (plus 4 5) => 9
18:14:29 *hefner* hates keith packard.
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18:15:12  I do wish he'd keep his links to the xrender spec up to date, or at least not link to a version 0.0.15 from 2000 saying "Here's the current version!"
18:16:06 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"]
18:16:07  lemoinem pasted "function called with 0 arguments... ?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70841
18:16:07  what the. "Component :CL not found, required by ..."?
18:16:14  kefka-the-great: What's the package in question?
18:16:21  lemoinem annotated #70841 with "compile warning" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70841#1
18:16:27  tic: you don't have to list that as a asdf dependency
18:16:28  clsql... but I think I've solved my problem
18:16:37  dlowe, alright.
18:16:46  tcr: one question, though... why are you SETFing fdefinition instead of symbol-function? Is there a difference?
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18:17:30  hi ! can anyone know why I get this reaction (lisppaste) from SBCL ? if a replace my "list &rest more-lists" by a "&rest lists" it seems to be working fine...
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18:18:24  kefka-the-great: There is a subtle one. Fdefinition takes a function name, while symbol-function takes a symbol only. See their respective clhs entries.
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18:19:07  tcr: Got it. Is one considered to be better form than the other?
18:19:21  dlowe, that did it.  :ecl (format t "Limp version ~A" limp:*version*) now happily instructs Vim to print "Limp version 42". :)
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18:19:41  ecl?
18:19:52  does limp use ecl as an embedded lisp?
18:19:57  (that'd be sort of cool)
18:20:02  it's looking like if SBCL was thinking that (cons ...) or (apply #'maprest ...) returns nil, hence (apply #'mapfirst rest) would result in a call with 0 arguments which is not the case... mapfirst and maprest are quite trivial (and tested anyway)
18:20:09  lemoinem: (loop for x ... and for y... ), the AND denotes parallel bindings (like LET)
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18:20:21  rsynnott, it will soon.
18:20:29  lemoinem: You want sequential binding so, just omit the AND.
18:20:49 *rsynnott* wonders how painful it would be to jam ecl into emacs in a sensible way
18:20:55  lemoinem: Notice that your definition of mapappend is cumbersome, though.
18:20:56  cl-slime!
18:21:06  ok, so rest is nil when it evals item = ...
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18:21:13  "cumbersome" ?
18:21:14  was there a solution to slime's habit of truncating error messages so you can't read them?
18:21:43  hefner: presumably you could just modify swank to make it not do that
18:21:45  hefner: Use C in the debugger to inspect the condition
18:21:45  rsynnott, Limp right now is a big ugly mess of line noise called "VimScript." I hope to rewrite it.
18:22:03  tcr: brilliant, thanks
18:22:49  kefka-the-great: You can regard SYMBOL-FUNCTION as an accessor into the symbol "structure" (i.e. something low level); FDEFINITION is the accessor to get at an function object from a name.
18:24:04  lemoinem: Look at Alexandria's MAPPEND, or into Norvig's PAIP.
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18:25:22  tcr: ok, I will look at those ones, thank for the advice !
18:25:34  hefner: I don't like the truncating in the debugger; I also don't like the truncating recently introduced into the inspector. I don't have time (nor the mood) to hack on slime at the moment, though.
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18:53:12  lemoinem: note that iterating until every list is empty is unusual. (map nil ...) can also be very useful to perform generic iteration over sequences.
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19:25:40  minion: memo for rpg: unified context diffs (-u), please!
19:25:40  Remembered. I'll tell rpg when he/she/it next speaks.
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19:33:37 *hefner* kicks xrender (yet again), gives up on trapezoids
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19:42:06  Good evening.
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19:42:39  beach: heyo
19:42:44  hefner: if gilberth shows up, that's something you might discuss with him, because he did some significant tests last time I saw him.
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19:44:52  hi
19:44:57 *weirdo* offtopic question
19:44:59  (not homework)
19:45:06 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@nmd.sbx08721.chantva.wayport.net] has quit []
19:45:56  given two numerical positional systems, radixes X and Y, how many times shorter is the same value expressed in X where radix X > Y?
19:46:20  for instance, X = 16 and Y = 2, equals four
19:46:31  but why?
19:47:24  log X / log Y
19:47:25  weirdo: log(X)/log(Y) times shorter
19:47:41  which log base? (excuse my ignorance)
19:47:48  any
19:47:50  well, that's just it
19:48:06  because log A in base B = log A / log B
19:48:22  think about determining how many digits a number might be in a radix, their ratio, and consider the change of base formula for logarithms
19:48:35  so the "/ log B"s cancel out and make the base of the log irrelevant
19:48:44  kefka-the-great, dmitry_vk: thank you
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19:50:32  hefner: i got only as far as 'expt 16 32 = expt 2 128'
19:51:13  heh. math must be fun
19:51:14  :-)
19:53:15  weirdo: fun, and very useful.
19:54:05  speaking of maths, it's hard to play reed instruments if you've taken a prolonged pause.
19:54:16 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.167] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)]
19:54:32  still, i asked many people and none wanted to tell me how to get to know math without formal education
19:54:50  tic: I gave up on playing instruments around a decade ago and took composition classes instead.  That stuff takes much longer to forget.
19:54:58  what they pass as math in high school at this part of the globe isn't math at al
19:55:19  weirdo: change the part of the globe you're at.
19:55:28  weirdo: or just do the reading yourself.
19:55:41  beach, it's not so much about forgetting as cramping mouth muscles. :)
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19:56:53  tic: I know.  What I meant was that unless you practice a couple of hours a day (whichis not possible if you have a daytime job) your skills as an instrumentalist are lost.  This is not the case for a composer.
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19:57:21  weirdo: russian math courses in schools are quite good.
19:57:41  beach, sounds reasonable.  maybe that's (another) thing to push onto my todo list, then?
19:58:25  beach: got any titles?
19:58:31  weirdo: I suggest you move to France, which still has good math teaching in high school.  In addition we have food and drink culture, and a decent climate.
19:58:42  weirdo: 'fraid not.
19:58:53  weirdo: I did the formal thing.
19:59:09  otoh, programming doesn't appear to require any formal education at all
19:59:30  tic: just don't make that list too long, or you'll suffer the other problem (too many things to do, not enough time).
19:59:38  weirdo: I disagree.
19:59:41  beach, .... too late
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19:59:48  tic: :(
20:00:08  beach: what else than cormen or knuth and some language/paradigm-specific books?
20:00:11 <_3b> i'd say it is more that there is more informal education available for programming
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20:00:17  weirdo: Pretty much all the programmers I have seen without formal training make a total mess.
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20:00:39  beach, but that's not such a bad thing, after-all. It'd be worse to /not/ have such a list.  (or maybe not?)
20:00:43  yeah, some of them even use lisp!
20:00:55  weirdo, looking for an escape from USian high school `math classes' into an introduction to real mathematics?
20:00:57  weirdo: software architecture, computer architecture, etc, etc,
20:01:03  beach, what would be your definition of formality?
20:01:10  tic: fair enough.
20:01:20  Riastradh: exactly. except it's poland, but the level is probably even worse
20:01:21  weirdo, oops, not `USian', but `as bad as USian'.
20:02:13  weirdo, if you don't have any more specific criteria than that, then I recommend a book by one Michael Spivak, simply titled _Calculus_.
20:02:29  tic: I don't have a very strict one.  It's just that most people without university education also seem incapable of reading a book on their own.  But the real definition would be just that: being able to and actually reading a good book on the subject you are working on.
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20:04:36  beach, agreed.  you'd be surprised (or well, maybe not given your position) how many students that are unable to do just so.  Don't know how they behave in general, but when it comes to programming -- which I find different from many other subjects in that you can pursue it yourself easier -- many /do/ fit your description of "informal education".  Maybe I'm just being stuck-up here, I don't know.
20:05:09  tic: sounds pretty accurate.
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20:07:47  beach, so, have you gotten your(?) OpenMusic students chained to Emacs yet?
20:08:15  I can't say I understand the snobbish condemnation of US schools for not teaching "real mathematics" (whatever that is). What do you want, teaching group theory to 12 year olds?
20:08:17  I seem to have to struggle to make my education more formal. (I'm a university student in CS)
20:08:26  Riastradh: thanks! i already found an online copy
20:08:28  tic: I think we did a pretty good job of justifying the choice of Lisp (which was one of the things they immediately questioned).
20:08:46  The classes aren't so bad, but I finished the only two theory courses and there's nothing that covers mathematical logic well enough, or lambda calculus.
20:09:06  tic: They learned Emacs a while ago, so they won't feel it the way you do :)
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20:09:31  hefner: yes, actually. I probably would've loved that.
20:09:55  I went to us schools and hated every second of math classes until I stumbled into my first CS theory class.
20:10:01  beach, is that justification jotted down somewhere?
20:11:45  tic: nope.  They just had a few seconds of doubt and I showed them the "features" list.
20:12:58  beach, is it the features.text file?
20:13:04  yeah
20:14:23  tic: The most efficient "weapon" is actually a coherent and convincing discourse.  Unfortunately my colleagues don't generally master that, probably because, unlike me, they have not spent time in the software industry at all, let alone in 4 different countries.
20:15:29  beach, alright, so what you need to do is to write that down somewhere. :)
20:16:29 <_3b> tic: probably less effective when written
20:16:33  tic: you tire me! :)  That's just part of the job of a teacher.  It's impossible to formalize and it's all about expert knowledge.
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20:17:03  beach, :))
20:17:21  Yeah, I'm just looking for the shiny projectile.
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20:18:46  (SB-INT:STREAM-ENCODING-ERROR
20:18:49   # tic: you can actually be the co-author of a book in 15-minute intervals.  Would you like to write one?
20:18:56  any hint what is that?
20:19:24  source and environment is UTF-8
20:19:26  tc-rucho: trying to read latin-1 characters while having a UTF-8-encoded stream, or vice-versa.
20:19:43  beach: any elegant way to solve it?
20:19:58  beach, what would that book be about?
20:20:06  hmm
20:20:40  tic: I think you were the one suggesting it.  I can write books on lots of things, but I need a co-author.
20:21:19  beach, now what did I suggest? *scratches head*
20:22:32 <_3b> tc-rucho: did you set up slime for utf-8?
20:22:45  tic: write down that the most efficient weapon is ...  I thought that was your suggestion.  No?
20:22:49  _3b: the problem is not with slime, it's with the shell
20:23:13  _3b: I had to change the default-external-encoding, it was being defaulted to ascii
20:23:39  but after fixing that I had to change sb-alien:default-c-string-external-encoding
20:23:46  now this error
20:23:54  and now I'm kinda lost
20:23:57 netaust1n [n=austinsm@65.217.157.122] has joined #lisp
20:24:04  S:
20:24:12  tc-rucho: maybe this error is the result of your fixes?
20:24:17 binghe [n=binghe@218.109.150.173] has joined #lisp
20:24:21 <_3b> if no slime is involved, setting a utf-8 locale should be enough (assuming you aren't changing standard output stream)
20:24:23  beach, oh, I meant more in terms of a bullet list.  I wouldn't know how to fill a whole book with that, nor do I really have the expertise required.
20:24:36  stassats: well, it wasn't working before I messed with the default-encodings
20:25:21  tic: Aim high!  I have written 3 books already so I know how to do that.  My problem is that I need someone to fix up the details.
20:25:24  _3b: yeah, locales... I have them right, it runs on the shell, but when being called as a cgi app it gets screwed up
20:25:48  sbcl as cgi app?
20:25:55  yeah
20:26:06 <_3b> tc-rucho: are you sure it still has the right locale in the cgi environment? (and why cgi?)
20:26:38  well, not very great idea, but anyway, are you sure that the parent of cgi has... what _3b said
20:26:42  now that you mention it, maybe the cgi locale has not been set at all
20:26:55 *tc-rucho* ischecking
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20:27:37  beach, good idea!  I'll place it in my TODO list somewhere between "associative information storage and retrieval", "study music composition", "build one-handed keyboard", "write swank front-end" and "finish thesis", then! .)
20:28:11 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp
20:28:14  thesis shmethis
20:28:33  tic: I fear that this list is going to be a burden on you as opposed to a list of opportunities.  That should not be the purpose.
20:29:21  dcrawford, my point exactly!  although, I've discussed it with the teacher, and at least the prototype will be written in Lisp.
20:30:41  beach, no, don't worry... I don't live by that list.  It's more like a "goals of life" thing, general rules to live by.
20:30:57 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp
20:31:04  Does anyone here know about CLSQL?
20:31:05 *tic* wishes Les Mondes Engloutis would come with non-French subtitles.
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20:33:07  tic: excellent!  That means that people like me kan move the items around on that list by fairly simple means. :)
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20:33:44  interesting typo.
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20:34:04  beach, I'm easily affected. *laughs*
20:34:18  tic: speaking of which: when are you going to finish the floating point printers? :)
20:34:49  beach, good point.
20:35:12  (not to put preasure on you or anything) :)
20:35:26 *tic* applies ACME 1TON on self.
20:36:13 *hefner* points out to no one in particular that Drei's overwrite mode seems not to work
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20:44:07  hefner: I had no idea Drei even had an overwrite mode.
20:44:20  me neither, I entered it by accident in the listener.
20:44:27  heh!
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20:52:48 *sykopomp* should try out a simple project with mcclim...
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20:55:54  omfg! A trapzoid!
20:56:45  hefner: you did it?
20:57:20  please tell me that's from (re)writing the X server ZOID extension, supported by clx
20:57:23  I used CL:FORMAT before I used SICL-FORMAT:FORMAT, and now my Lisp thinks FORMAT is CL:FORMAT, even though I'm in the SICL-FORMAT package. Can I easily fix this without rebooting my Lisp?
20:57:43  tic: yes, with shadow and unintern
20:57:58  Krystof, it's already shadowed by the defpackage.  so I need to unintern then.
20:58:39  That's no good either.  No format in that package now.  Bummer. I think I'll just reboot my Lisp.
20:59:10  beach: yeah. although so far it's a very jaggy one. turns out if you supply a mask-format arg, X does.. well, god knows what it does. but if you fix the bug in CLX that stopped you from supplying :none for that arg, you can get something to appear.
21:00:10  hefner: progress!  When you make it you need to write it down so that we can all take advantage.
21:00:24  underlying this might be that I still have no idea what I'm doing, and maybe it really works eithe way
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21:00:54  hefner: I'm still taking clx patches
21:00:55  hefner: that could be :)  But I am glad you are doing it rather than me.
21:01:48  (I am missing context, though(
21:02:01  Krystof: I'm playing with the xrender trapezoid request
21:03:03  Since you're talking about X and drawing again, I find my self curious: Is there any likely use for an implementation of the X rendering model divorced from event handling, protocol encoding, etc.?
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21:08:22  nyef: sure.  What made you doubt it?
21:08:51  Because I'm having a little difficulty coming up with one?
21:09:09  (unless I am misunderstanding "divorced from...")
21:10:16  Basically, I'm considering writing a rasterizer for CLXS, but don't really want to tie it too closely to CLXS itself.
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21:10:31 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp
21:10:41  fair enough
21:12:17  nyef: would it help if you consider the possibility that such a thing would be contained in a framebuffer backend of McCLIM in addition to being a part of CLXS?
21:13:09  With McCLIM handling the event-dispatch, window structure, etc.? Maybe.
21:13:29 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
21:13:42  good afternoon
21:13:44  Hm. I thought ~D wasn't supposed to be able to print floats, but it seems to default to ~A. Well then.
21:14:22  tic: Isn't ~D just ~A with *print-base* bound to #x0a?
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21:15:11  nyef, you're right.
21:15:33  (not that I knew it was /exactly/ the same.  that's actually useful.)
21:15:59  tic:  I am delighted that you are making progress on the printers!
21:16:02 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-50-152.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp
21:16:10  beach, someone messed with my todo list!
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21:17:31  tic: vicious!
21:18:22  how cool would an iphone repl be?
21:18:23  I just hope my todo list doesn't get wet. I don't usually load archival (waterproof, among other things) ink into my pens.
21:18:38  mbac: So cool that Apple would outright forbid it?
21:18:39  mbac, work's being done on an ARM SBCL.
21:18:57  nyef, so you have a physical todo list?
21:19:05  nyef, sounds plausible
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21:19:20  tic: Sortof. I occasionally write them down, and then mostly ignore them.
21:19:41  nyef, good enough. I find that you remember things better by writing them down, even if you never look at them again.
21:19:48  Exactly!
21:19:57  tic: deal with it!  His goals are pretty clear!
21:19:59  And for some reason it's not sufficient to type them, it has to be hand-written.
21:20:34  nyef, yeah, amazing isn't it?  Probably because takes sooo much more time to write things by hand compared to typing them.
21:20:51  That might be it.
21:21:21  Or because it involves different parts of your brain.
21:21:45  Since if you're just typing, you don't need to worry about the visual appearance of the letters.
21:22:08  (Those of you who have touch-typed stuff with your monitors off know exactly what I mean here.)
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21:23:12 *beach* can no longer write, and gets cramps after writing a post card :(
21:23:32  beach: Ooh. That doesn't sound fun.
21:23:32  nyef, involving more senses is a good theory.  (I have a Das Keyboard without keycaps, and on top of that I use a homebrewed Swedish dvorak keymap)
21:23:39  same here with the postcard. yuck.
21:24:22  nyef: yeah, the secretaries complain that my postcards from abroad are very short.
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21:28:36  FUN FACT: Niggers represent only 13% of the U.S. population, but are said to consume 45% of fried chicken from chicken fast food establishments (ie. KFC, Church's, Bojangles)
21:29:20  I'm not familiar with Church's. Tell me more about this establishment.
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21:30:19 -!- chandler [n=chandler@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has been kicked from #lisp
21:30:32  Heh.
21:30:38 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"]
21:30:41  What, no "FUN FACT: Trolls repersent only 13% of the IRC population" kick message?
21:31:01  We do?
21:31:02 -!- chandler has set mode -b *!n=ginkeq@*.ptd.net
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21:31:42  tic: 47% of all statistics are made up on the spot. :-P
21:34:24  I thought it was higher than that.
21:34:27  lisppaste, nooo
21:35:52  nyef, *laugh*
21:36:29  nyef: usually I see that with at least 4 digit accuracy.
21:36:55  What percent of the time is `usually', beach?
21:37:30  Okay, over the past half to three quarters of an hour, I made -some- progress on the project I'm trying to focus on. It no longer feels like a complete waste of a day.
21:37:47  Riastradh: I would say around 78.54%.
21:37:53  beach: Surely that'd be 4 digit precision, not accuracy?
21:38:15 *beach* forgets the difference
21:39:09  Pi is 3, to a single digit of precision.
21:39:19  As for accuracy, well...
21:39:23 *tic* adds 52 decimals.
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21:39:30  nyef: you win
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21:40:29  Pi is 1 with perfect accuracy and precision... in base Pi.
21:40:43  (Or is that 10? I forget...)
21:40:53  mmm pie
21:41:06  Apple or pumpkin?
21:41:26  Apple.  We don't do pumpkin here.
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21:41:43  tic: retarded kind of place.
21:41:57  nyef: 10 = pi^1 + pi^0, so yes, 10
21:42:27  stassats: Right... And pi^0 is 1 in any number base, right?
21:42:27  beach, I've been meaning to do pumpkin pie a few times, but I chickened out for some reason.
21:42:40  nyef: yes, i thought about it after hit the return
21:42:49  nyef, something tells me that proof won't hold.
21:42:57  (although, it depends on your definition of "+" and "10")
21:43:23  stassats, I think you meant 10 = 1 pi^1 + 0 pi^0.
21:43:37  tic: I was the one teaching the housewives of Baltimore to make pumpkin pie from scratch.
21:43:40  Of course, every numeral there means something different.
21:43:42  tic: stassats made a trivial error in his assertion, but finding the counterexample is an important step in finding the proof.
21:43:58  Riastradh: oh, yes
21:44:18  tic: they all did it from canned pumpkin, but it is actually easy to make it if you microwave the fresh pumpkin.
21:44:18  beach, impressive.  by the way, did I tell you my nickname on the last ski trip was "house bitch"? :)
21:44:38  beach, not the entire pie in the microwave I hope?
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21:45:04 *nyef* goes to see if there are any cans of pumpkin in the pantry.
21:45:20 *tic* wonders when the police comes knocking on the door and glue a +b to his behind.
21:45:24  tic: half of one usually.
21:45:28  how can you eat pumpkin? Its taste of abhorrent!
21:45:38  is*
21:45:46  beach, the pumpkin meat w/ sugar?
21:45:56  jpcooper: sugar, eggs, spices
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21:46:33  tic: you microwave the raw pumpkin, then put it in a food processor with the rest.
21:46:37 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp
21:47:24  Gosh!  How hard can it be to cook a damn pumpkin?
21:47:52 *tic* throws fermented herring at beach 
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21:48:45  oh, no! Not fermenet herring!
21:48:58  *fermented
21:49:12  (my typing is off tonight)
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21:50:05  I think it's at least partly a convenience factor. Canned pumpkin is easy to get... and has probably been sitting in the pantry for years.
21:50:12  tic, are you Dutch or something?
21:50:18  oh, Sweden
21:50:29  one of my colleagues in Holland tried to make me eat one
21:50:32  jpcooper: yeah, worse, he is Swedish.
21:51:04  it's the same language, just less fish bones in our throats.
21:51:08  jpcooper: this entire channel is infested by scandinavians in fact.
21:51:30 *jpcooper* will not make comments on Vikings, what with recent channel events
21:51:52  don't worry, I'm half non-Swede.
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21:52:03  oh
21:52:06  bloody Vikings
21:52:09 *beach* missed the Viking references but does not want to be reminded
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21:56:01  I managed again to build sbcl on linux x86 without threads. I think I cleaned up one of those 'target-features' files.
21:56:12  So, ~A can print -anything-, and the floating point directives just give you float-specific formatting. Right?
21:56:23  right
21:57:14  tic: go tic! go!
21:58:11  was it customize-target-features ?
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21:59:42  kami-: customize-target-features.lisp
22:00:21  stassats: thank you.
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22:01:28  beach, are you aware of any formatting inconsistencies (space vs tab probably) in, say, format.lisp?
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22:03:28  tic: no, I am unaware of anyting like that.
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22:06:39  beach, was my fault.  I didn't see any tabs, for some reason, and since I have a different tabstop setting...
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22:07:12  tic: phew!
22:08:19  OK, this is past my bedtime!  See you tomorrow!
22:08:23  Night, beach!
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22:46:56  minion, tell beach so what you had in mind was to simply copy the code in SB!IMPL that performs floating-point ops, specifically flonum-to-string and friends?
22:46:57  beach: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy
22:47:04 -!- OdinsGhost is now known as OdinsGhost_afk
22:47:57  Heh. So I'm trying to figure out how to bash gnome-terminal into using Meta instead of Alt for escape sequences, and lo and behold I run across a thread on comp.unix.solaris from rtoy asking about this very thing
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22:48:49  minion: memo for rtoy: thanks for fixing my gnome-terminal!
22:48:50  Remembered. I'll tell rtoy when he/she/it next speaks.
22:49:04  tic: ideally not. The point is also to have alternative implementations to compare their behaviours.
22:49:27  pkhuong, so only the algorithm? I'm a bit scared by the big warning text in the source.
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22:56:03  tic: and even then from the articles ;)
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23:01:44  pkhuong, I think I'll base it on SB!IMPL to begin with.
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23:06:24  haha, "; running out of letters here" in flonum-to-digits
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23:28:39  Steele and Gabriel: LtU meets cirque du soleil + taoism :-) http://blog.jaoo.dk/2008/11/21/art-and-code-obscure-or-beautiful-code/
23:28:42 *stassats* apparently has a bad luck and his messages don't seem to get through sourceforge's mail-system
23:28:52  are here sbcl maintainers, by any chance?
23:29:30  there are lots here, but chances are you won't catch them listening
23:29:59  sbcl-devel has been changed to subscriber-only posting in the last year or so
23:30:16  i am subscribed
23:30:32  then you might be luckier sending through gmane (:
23:31:01  maybe
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23:37:30  fusss: this video is unbearably ceremonial.
23:38:18  antifuchs: yeah, not as fun as HOPL-uncut.pdf :-P
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23:39:07  HOPL-uncut.pdf is really nice.
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