00:00:15 -!- milanj- [n=milan@77.46.187.22] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:02:05 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:02:35 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-78-129.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:02:45 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has joined #lisp 00:03:18 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:04:09 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 00:04:20 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:04:46 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:04:52 Has anyone seen Xach in while? 00:05:04 gigamonkey: What's a while? 00:05:10 I chatted with him this morning. 00:05:13 Ah. Good. 00:05:22 I haven't seen him in a week or so. 00:05:42 Yeah, he was on some spritual no-computer trip or something for a bit ;) 00:05:49 I think just away with the kids. 00:05:50 kngspook [n=King@unaffiliated/alpha] has joined #lisp 00:08:42 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has quit [] 00:12:22 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.203.205] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:12:47 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 00:13:55 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:14:48 Any recommendations for good common lisp interpreters/compilers? 00:15:07 sbcl ? 00:15:13 Kay, thanks. 00:15:39 np 00:18:54 chaos_compiler [n=chaos_co@p4FD8BB53.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 00:18:57 tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@unaffiliated/tc-rucho] has joined #lisp 00:19:38 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-010-175.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:20:28 Is there a != function for numbers? 00:20:31 /= 00:20:45 Thanks :) 00:21:02 np 00:23:12 -!- pjb [n=pjb@free.informatimago.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:23:44 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:26:10 what's the conventional file ending for a lisp file? 00:27:52 ...) followed by a new line 00:28:11 a new line, less confusingly 00:28:31 I typically end with ";;; EOF" on its own line. 00:28:34 kngspook: or .lisp, if that is what you were looking for 00:28:42 nyef: why? 00:28:51 madnificent: it was 00:29:01 but thank you all for your answers 00:29:05 kngspook: sometimes .l I have seen as well, but I think most people use .lisp 00:29:16 and of course .el for emacs lisp 00:29:20 housel: Among other things, it helps make sure that I have a trailing newline after the last close-paren. 00:29:34 I was just making a template for my text editor for while I learn. 00:29:41 nyef: don't force yourself to manage things your editor can! 00:29:47 .lisp works fine for me. 00:30:08 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:23 merlincorey: My editor, for some reason, doesn't. And I find it disconcerting not to see an EOF-footer in general. 00:30:32 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:48 While I'm at it, is there anything else you guys think I should put in my basic template that would help SBCL? 00:31:21 sbcl likes good code 00:31:45 stassats: it's definitely not going to be getting that today. :P I'm just starting out. 00:32:04 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-032-118.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:32:40 kngspook: if you're learning, I recommend the slime mode in emacs 00:32:54 madnificent: if he doesn't already know emacs, then he has two problems! 00:33:05 however, I also highly recommend slime mode in emacs for learning and using CL 00:33:11 and I don't, except maybe how to get out of it... >.> 00:33:12 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:22 Well, I'll install emacs as well. 00:33:38 I should probably learn it anyways, given how often I find myself in shells. 00:33:45 -!- chaos_compiler [n=chaos_co@p4FD8BB53.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 00:34:40 kngspook: what editor do you use now? 00:35:05 madnificent: TextMate, and nano mostly in the shell, occasionally vi. 00:35:58 vi or vim? if vim and you multi-buffer it is similar in keypresses to emacs so shouldnt be hard to learn 00:35:59 ... Now there's a horrible thought: Having to write 50,000 words of fiction, in November, using nano as your text editor. 00:36:15 vi has a lisp-mode too. Yet slime is more widespread, so I think it's wiser to use emacs+slime to start out. 00:36:34 is vi's lisp-mode as comprehensive as slime? 00:36:43 nyef: heh 00:36:51 I can't use nano, i'm always expecting C-k to work the emacs way, exiting to be C-x C-c, save to be C-x C-s... 00:37:23 njsg: imagine the terror I've had in the past days. Forced to use eclipse o_O 00:37:31 I hate the C-k in nano. The nice thing about learning emacs is readline on most shells and many programs behaves with the exact same keys 00:37:46 so you can C-k some text from the end and C-a to the beginning and C-y it to the front 00:37:50 all in a $ 00:37:59 the last week I opened eclipse to find if it had any sort of reachable cool tool to build up (argh) UML from (argh) java 00:38:16 it was the first and the last time I'll ever launch such an application 00:38:42 the interface was terrible 00:38:50 njsg: I had to do some UML last week. I was displeased...I had a lot of trouble finding a decent app to do it. 00:38:58 and of course i didn't even try to look further 00:38:59 njsg: we use visual paradigm... the best we could find, but my god, it is bad 00:39:04 njsg: I was hoping TeX had something for it 00:39:12 I ended up using dia, lack of time 00:39:23 and it was something we could do with pointing, writing the stuff 00:39:27 njsg: heh, same... 00:39:39 njsg: I just wished dia would export to PDF. 00:39:41 unfortunately, I've got to use a non-optical mouse with a slightly bad precision 00:39:51 with time I'd have looked at metauml 00:40:05 What're comments in lisp? 00:40:08 it's some uml stuff for metapost, should work with LaTeX 00:40:14 The problem I have with nano is that I keep hitting C-y to attempt to yank what I've just killed... 00:40:14 kngspook: anything after ; 00:40:14 njsg: Basing your opinion on glancing at something for 15 minutes, or perhaps half an hour is silly. 00:40:41 tcr: so you don't want to know for how long did I look at it 00:41:07 I don't know Eclipse much, but I think it's close to state-of-the-art in some respects 00:41:51 tcr: And I wouldn't be surprised to find that in other respects it's even closer than second-to-none. 00:41:56 eclipse is rather good, I just whish it was inside emacs... with all the nice keybindings etc 00:42:16 tcr: and anyway, of course I know it's silly 00:42:25 nyef: second-to-none? I'm not familiar with that expression. 00:42:43 tcr: nothing is better 00:42:48 maybe a day, when I feel like giving it a chance to run here (I wonder how slow will it be...) 00:42:53 Eclipse isn't bad...a bit large. But I found it to be one of the better alternative when I was stuck on Windows doing C++ stuff. 00:42:57 tcr: "Second to none" means that it's in first. Even closer than second-to-none would be none at all. 00:43:12 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:43:50 Ah ok I see 00:44:22 So it's a joke based on a somewhat common english idiomatic phrase. 00:44:29 well, got to go, and of course i'll look at eclipse someday to get a real opinion on it :P 00:44:49 change identifier is a nice feature of eclipse 00:45:20 Isn't there some emacs thing for making that sort of change to lisp code? 00:45:21 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["Made With Secret Alien Technology"] 00:46:18 kind of, C-a (go to toplevel form), C-SPC C-M-SPC (mark-sexp), M-x query-replace 00:47:03 There's no semantic understanding, but it's very handy nontheless 00:47:47 Agh. ECB and semantic bovinator flashbacks. 00:48:08 That is to rename a symbol locally, globally across multiple files is something I'm personally craving for, but haven't had to time either to look for it, or hack it up myself. 00:49:01 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 00:49:02 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:49:28 tcr: and correct me if I am wrong, but doesn't eclipse's change identifier feature do this globally across the entire project keeping in mind scope? 00:50:04 I'd be disappointed if it didn't do that! 00:50:35 jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.47.220] has joined #lisp 00:50:38 In order to do that with emacs, you'd need to give emacs the concept of a "project", wouldn't you? 00:51:26 merlincorey: Do you know the xref stuff in Slime? In particular slime-who-calls (C-c C-w c)? 00:51:30 nyef: it does, sort of; my friends and I use the sessions feature 00:51:49 tcr: no, but it seems like that could be a good place to start hacking a similarly aware feature 00:52:00 tcr: The door-to-door salesman feature? 00:52:29 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:52:53 The automagic is just a keyboard macro away ;) 00:53:48 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:03 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 00:54:26 l4ndfo_ [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:54:31 I wouldn't be surprised if the clozure people plan some kind of refactoring support for their IDE; it'd be a selling point against Slime. 00:54:54 Packaged releases would be a selling point against slime. 00:55:26 kngspook pasted "no output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70619 00:55:45 so I'm getting no output from that paste 00:55:48 I did plan releases for Slime, though not packaged. 00:55:53 clhs finish-output 00:55:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm 00:56:01 Or maybe... 00:56:04 clhs force-output 00:56:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_finish.htm 00:56:18 -!- mozzyb [n=mozzyb@196.80-203-61.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:56:21 I'm not sure if it matters, but I'm running via a shebang line and from my terminal. 00:56:41 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-3-248.dip.osnanet.de] has quit ["http://github.com/bakkdoor/rswing/"] 00:56:42 kngspook: One of those two should fix it, if placed immediately after the FORMAT call. 00:57:13 nyef: So, good news and bad news on the suspend/resume front. 00:57:24 chandler: It works better, but it's not quite usable? 00:57:28 The good news is that the nVidia blob does indeed re-enable the display. 00:57:36 The bad news is that it comes back up to a whole mess of EXT3 errors. 00:57:42 Oh, ouch. 00:57:55 mozzyb [n=mozzyb@196.80-203-61.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 00:58:12 I hope you didn't lose any data in that. 00:58:20 nyef: thanks, helped 00:58:40 Apparently, it didn't actually manage to write anything to the disk at all, so the system seems fine after a reboot. 00:59:02 heh 00:59:22 io buffers ftw 00:59:31 Also, X is acting a little funny now, but that may be Compiz's fault. 00:59:40 On my front, I mostly sorted out my XP box last night, so it only complains about a new firefox update instead of the virus scanner update and it can now suspend-to-disk and has all its RAM. And I have 2.6.28-rc5 ready to try on my linux box to see if that fixes my networking... 00:59:55 -!- l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:00:29 Also, #@$#% Gnome still hasn't put back the option to turn off cursor blink in gnome-terminal. 01:00:31 (And if it -does-, then I'll either convert immediately, or I'll hold off until 2.6.28 is released and then finally run with a non-rc kernel for the first time in ages.) 01:00:40 -!- l4ndfo_ [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:00:53 why does "let" have 2 parens for its first argument instead of 1? 01:01:02 (2 pairs) 01:01:04 kngspook: So you can bind more than one variable at once. 01:01:05 chandler: i bet they never add the option, but just eliminate it entirely. :) 01:01:13 ah, okay 01:01:16 kngspook: Well it doesn't necessarily :) 01:01:17 chandler: (since power-saving and thus having no timers is all the rage these days) 01:01:25 You can do it with just one? 01:01:41 (let (foo) foo) 01:01:46 foom: in the name of the HIG, they unified the options, so now to turn off blink in the terminal I need to turn it off globally 01:02:24 ah, well. I just use konsole. gnome-terminal is a really shitty terminal... 01:02:35 never mind any cursor blinking. :) 01:02:48 stassats: but (let (n 10) n) failed for me, with "The lambda variable 10 is not a symbol." 01:03:13 yes, it binds variables to NIL 01:03:15 kngspook: Right, that's the equivalent of (let ((n nil) (10 nil)) n). 01:03:24 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:03:41 Alright. 01:03:45 Thanks. 01:04:14 (let (n |10|) n) will "work" 01:04:17 foom: gnome-terminal is adequately fast on my 2.66GHz Core 2 Quad with 8GB of RAM and a 10K RPM hard drive, at least. 01:04:28 binds n, and |10| to nil 01:04:46 On lesser hardware, eh... :-) 01:05:07 *nyef* adds "terminal emulator" to his potential lisp projects list. 01:05:33 *stassats* uses rxvt-unicode and screen 01:05:39 chandler: that may be, but its terminal emulation is absolutely terrible...I don't think its authors ever read the specs. It works just well enough to run ncurses-using applications. 01:05:58 but if you try to do anything else, it's just blatantly wrong 01:06:47 foom: Oh. I never noticed anything else, because mostly I'm running screen. 01:06:58 rread [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:07:09 nyef: looks like old buggins: https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux-source-2.6.20/+bug/108593 01:07:15 well, yes, screen does make it rather irrelevant what gnome-console does. :) 01:08:08 -!- rread [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:08:16 l4ndfo [n=l4ndfo@catv-89-132-93-183.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 01:08:29 And mostly inside of that I'm running irssi. Most other stuff isn't sophisticated enough to cause a problem (gcc) or is actually running under Emacs 01:08:33 chandler: Yeah, suspend on HP hardware has been spotty at best for a while. 01:08:48 Let's try hibernate. 01:09:06 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:09:25 I've thought I had it working three or four times in the past, and there's always been some extra problem that showed up after a while that indicated that it never worked right... 01:10:49 Once it was that it only woke one core from suspend. Worked fine until two processes got scheduled to run at the same time. 01:10:55 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:11:09 -!- avodonosov [n=Miranda@212.98.174.94] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:11:27 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:36 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 01:11:43 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:11:44 Is there a way, with sbcl, that I can sit in the interactive mode, and have it read and execute a file, and then leave me at the top level? (My goal is to be able to write my function in a file, because it's easier, but then run it with test values interactively.) 01:12:00 Then there was the period where they found some problem with the aperature mapping when there was 4G or more of ram in the system... 01:12:02 kngspook: Have you considered using SLIME? 01:12:21 chandler: yeah, it was brought up earlier, but I don't know emacs, so I'm holding off on it for now... 01:12:27 nyef: I only have 3GB right now, actually, but I was considering getting another 2GB module. Will it break? 01:12:38 kngspook: Have a look at the LOAD function. But really, this all works better with proper editor integration. 01:12:55 chandler: Since fixed. Over the 2.6.26 or 2.6.27 cycle. 01:12:58 kngspook: Well, SLIME would be my suggested answer to that, as it really makes working with this a lot easier. You can just write your function in a file, and use C-M-x to re-evaluate the DEFUN whenever you change it. 01:13:04 nyef: OK. Good to hear. 01:13:13 Hibernate worked, actually. 01:13:25 chandler: maybe I should detour and spend some time learning emacs... 01:13:45 kngspook: It will not take much learning, since you can point-and-click until you are more familiar with the editor commands. 01:13:54 And if you're doing a custom kernel, and your kernel source is new enough, enable the HP_WMI driver. If your BIOS is similar to mine, that gets rfkill and similar stuff working. 01:14:17 I don't know what either HP_WMI or rfkill are. I have turned into a point-and-drool Linux user. 01:14:46 rfkill is support for the button on the computer that kills the wireless card. 01:14:46 radio frequency killer switch? 01:14:59 kngspook: the amount of 'emacs' one needs to know to use SLIME is minimal. 01:15:10 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:15:28 I'm looking at the emacs tutorial now 01:15:40 I hope clozure's promised development environment isn't ccl-specific. 01:15:44 nyef: Mine has a switch, and the b43 driver does seem to complain loudly if I try to use wifi with the switch off. 01:15:58 I think it will be, but I'd be interested in turning it into a SLIME host. 01:16:21 chandler: Yeah, for mine, it silently doesn't find any stations, but my current kernel doesn't have the WMI junk. 01:16:27 What's ccl? 01:16:34 clozure common lisp 01:16:39 kngspook: Clozure Common Lisp, formerly OpenMCL. 01:17:07 What's different about it from sbcl, for example? 01:17:41 Philosophy and heritage, for starters. 01:17:56 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-233-165-252.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:18:03 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:18:13 Which also affects things like the user interface, foreign function interface, garbage collector, what extensions it provides, etc. 01:18:24 however it borrows some code from cmucl too, iirc 01:18:56 Sure, but they have their own compiler, and don't use python, right? 01:19:06 emacs does not seem to be happy with me...option/alt-V makes a sqrt sign, instead of moving up a page 01:19:07 yes, seems so 01:19:34 nyef: Oh. Seems like a minor issue to me, compared to suspend. 01:19:36 esc V works everywhere 01:19:42 even on the most primitive of terminals 01:20:17 chandler: It is, in a way, but may as well make it happen if you're building a custom kernel anyway, right? 01:20:25 lucca: i doubt it will work for your fingers 01:20:43 lucca: it did, but it wasn't terribly convenient 01:21:00 I found an option in the Terminal to make alt into the meta key (who knows what it was before...) 01:21:03 kngspook: I suggest getting a GUI version of Emacs. If you are on OS X, try http://www.porkrind.org/emacs/ 01:21:12 nyef: Right. 01:21:26 *chandler* up and away! 01:21:27 Ugh. Recent discoveries: In the version of cygwin rxvt I have installed, I can't generate keystrokes with both C- and M-, I have to use ESC C- instead. 01:21:37 chandler: Best of luck. 01:22:23 I'm going to sign off for the night and shutdown and try my new kernel. 01:22:26 G'night all. 01:22:35 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-50-169.man.east.verizon.net] has quit ["I'll be back tomorrow."] 01:23:18 kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has joined #lisp 01:25:00 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:25:38 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 01:26:07 that sneaky nyef. I wanted to ask him what happened in April. I'd have guessed January. 01:26:21 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8a60-049.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:27:06 c|mell [n=cmell@cad4e7-059.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:33:41 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 01:33:41 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-44-225.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:33:41 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-179-44-225.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 01:34:16 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:34:38 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:34:56 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:00 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 01:42:34 How does scoping work on the quote operator(s)? 01:42:40 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user156-246.wireless.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 01:42:55 -!- mozzyb [n=mozzyb@196.80-203-61.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:42:57 everything inside quote is quoted. 01:43:40 And "(quote (2 3 4 5 6))" would be a list? 01:44:16 Or do I then need the list function as well? 01:44:32 that evaluates to the list (2 3 4 5 6) 01:46:00 and what about [ ' ] ? 01:46:22 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:46:27 '(2 3 4 5 6) ? 01:46:27 Does that just go to end of line, or just until the following parenthesis closes? 01:46:46 Let's say '(2 3 (5 6)) ? 01:46:52 'something == (quote something) 01:46:54 it quotes the entire form which follows 01:47:04 what stassats said. 01:47:43 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:47:49 Okay...then I really don't know where I'm going wrong here... 01:47:59 kngspook pasted "find-items hanging?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70622 01:48:24 It seems to hang on the third test. 01:48:31 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 01:48:41 But I think maybe I did the recursion wrong now. 01:49:12 clhs listp 01:49:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_listp.htm 01:50:59 kngspook: change listp to consp 01:51:41 and consider using cond instead of nested ifs 01:51:54 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:52:13 dramatic styling and bold indentation for the winter season 01:52:28 stassats: consp fixed it, but I don't understand why... 01:52:37 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:52:49 c.f. (consp nil) and (listp nil) 01:52:54 what's the difference between a cons and a list, besides that one is made with "cons" as opposed to "list"? 01:53:55 (listp nil) 01:53:56 Okay, I see they return differently... 01:54:08 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-117-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:35 -!- vorian is now known as heHATEme 01:56:18 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:56 -!- heHATEme is now known as vorian 01:58:21 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:03:37 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:07:43 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA077.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:07:51 -!- jlf` [n=user@unaffiliated/jlf] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:09:14 I think I like lisp. I expected the barrier to entry to be much higher. 02:10:41 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 02:17:08 kngspook: You can reach a rather good fun-zone if you ever read on lisp 02:20:26 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:23:45 mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:23:46 netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has joined #lisp 02:25:57 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:27:11 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user156-246.wireless.utoronto.ca] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:29:30 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:29:40 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:18 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.142.76] has joined #lisp 02:33:28 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:33:42 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:42 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-24-91-154-83.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:39:53 clhs prepend 02:39:53 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for prepend. 02:40:42 maybe do you need append? 02:41:16 s/do// 02:42:13 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 02:44:05 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-8d116f8207896fb8] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:44:45 Eh...maybe. 02:44:54 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-240-013.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:44:55 trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-247-056.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 02:45:01 I'm trying to make something that lists all possible combinations of the contents of a list. 02:45:31 But I think I need to think more about what would be the best way to do it (given what I know so far). 02:46:01 a permutation? 02:46:08 Yep. 02:46:40 well, except if I'm giving (1 2 3), I don't want (1 2). 02:47:42 easiest way is to simplify the task and then do it recursively 02:48:37 kngspook: interesting. I was talking to a friend last night who received that exercise as homework last night :) 02:49:31 stassats: yeah, I was thinking about that 02:50:01 sykopomp: Heh, in lisp? 02:50:32 kngspook: yes. He's apparently taking a programming languages class, and they're covering CL right now :) 02:52:11 sykopomp: I suppose I shouldn't be terribly surprised, it's a common exercise. 02:52:45 kngspook: in a less sneaky way, I was trying to ask: is this your homework? 02:53:09 sykopomp: nope 02:53:33 ah okay. 02:53:42 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-117-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 02:53:58 sykopomp: if it was, I'm sure I could just google up a solution...I can't imagine I'm the first to write this code... 02:54:25 sykopomp: so did you actually have a friend in a PL course, or did you just make that up to find out? :P 02:54:36 oh, that part is actually true :P 02:54:43 we really were talking last night about CL 02:55:17 what school? 02:55:33 uhhh, I don't remember. Starts with a W 02:55:45 and IIRC, it's in massachusetts 02:55:47 or something 02:56:15 it's not very helpful, as you can tell, and my memory is horrible. Years of google/wp-reliance can destroy your ability to remember things. 02:56:16 slyrus___ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:18 -!- slyrus___ is now known as slyrus_ 02:56:38 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:56:43 I actually worry about that. I used to memorize phone numbers, believe it or not. :P 02:57:25 I remember those days 02:57:48 although I can still remember phone numbers of people I call often, because their voice mail always tells me what it is 02:58:31 I don't, I usually just hang up as soon as the voicemail comes on for most of my friends, since they rarely, if ever, check it. 02:58:40 Usually the missed call is enough. 02:58:46 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@ip68-100-82-161.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [] 02:58:51 *stassats* vaguely recalls his own phone number 02:59:09 all the numbers I remember start with 555 03:00:11 i remember 867-5309 03:01:05 i remember number of symbols in CL: 987 03:01:50 Esmil [n=esmil@4704ds1-gjp.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 03:01:58 damn, 978 03:02:09 stassats remembers nothing 03:02:18 now i do! really 03:02:30 milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.99] has joined #lisp 03:03:27 DrForr_ [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has joined #lisp 03:03:58 Do someone know a good common lisp tutorial? 03:04:11 minion: tell Esmil about pcl 03:04:12 Esmil: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 03:04:15 minion: tell Esmil abput that-dead-xexy-book 03:04:16 benny` [n=benny@i577A0733.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 03:04:16 Esmil: watch out, you'll make krystof angry 03:04:27 man .. don't listen to me 03:04:33 stassats: Thank you :) 03:04:42 *drewc* cannot type today 03:04:44 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0733.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:04:47 minion: tell Esmil about that dead-sexy-book 03:04:48 Esmil: i don't know what you're referring to 03:04:57 bah. he doesn't like me either. 03:04:57 clhs dolist 03:04:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_dolist.htm 03:05:08 slyrus_: it's 'that-dead-sexy-book' 03:05:10 I wish the lispworks website had a website search =\ 03:05:16 heh 03:05:30 kngspook: what do you mean? 03:05:31 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.202.99] has quit [Client Quit] 03:05:43 minion: tell Esmil about that-dead-sexy-book 03:05:43 kngspook: slime can lookup symbols in clhs for you 03:05:44 Esmil: have a look at that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 03:05:44 kngspook: the hyperspec on the lispworks site is extremely searchable 03:05:57 minion: tell kngspook about google. 03:05:57 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``google''. 03:06:03 heh 03:06:06 heh 03:06:06 -!- jackdaw [n=chris@cpe-076-182-043-222.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:06:17 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:06:21 kngspook: apparently you and minion are the last to know! 03:06:46 drewc: Sorry, I can only think about one thing at a time. :P 03:06:46 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:07:24 kngspook: are you referring to the hyperspec, or are you looking for more specific lispworks information? 03:07:25 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:07:36 sykopomp: just hyperspec, I think 03:07:54 kngspook: play around with it for a while, it's incredibly easy to find what you need :) 03:07:56 -!- DrForr [n=drforr@eldwist.darkuncle.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:08:09 when all else fails, head for the symbols section, load all symbols in a page, and do an isearch 03:08:24 but it always better to access it from an editor 03:08:41 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:09:01 sykopomp: that's what (apropos "list" :cl) is for 03:09:05 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:11:20 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [No route to host] 03:12:10 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:44 Does the spec dictate that none of common-lisp package's symbols can be rebound locally, or is it a subset? 03:15:22 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:15:26 clhs 11.1.2.1 03:15:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_aba.htm 03:15:35 Modius: neither really. 03:15:39 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 03:15:40 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:15:41 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 03:15:52 That's it. I can never remember when to stop .1.2.1.2.1.2.1.2.1.2 03:16:54 artist [n=user@ool-44c51a97.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:59 hi 03:17:17 the rule as i understand it is 'bind away, but if you're doing something you know to be silly, it's non-conforming. 03:17:55 Also, hallelujah! The GNOMEfidels have decided to put back the option to disable GNOME terminal cursor blinking as a hidden preference. 03:18:02 -!- artist [n=user@ool-44c51a97.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 03:18:02 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:18:55 Good morning. 03:19:06 -!- kuwabara [n=Kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:19:24 Good evening beach. 03:20:47 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:22:41 what did I miss? 03:23:44 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:25:40 list-length will work with cons? 03:26:22 lists consist of conses 03:28:21 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@TUBERIUM.CLUB.CC.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 03:29:10 but don't use list-length, unless you expect your lists to be circular, use LENGTH 03:30:44 -!- trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-247-056.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 03:35:32 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:37:32 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:38:14 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:38:35 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:53 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:34 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 03:44:41 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp91-122-99-1.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 03:46:10 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:47:13 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:49:48 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:51:03 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 03:51:29 lelelele [n=le@62.212.202.113] has joined #lisp 03:51:34 hello there 03:51:47 srcerer_ [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 03:52:20 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:52:49 lelelele: hello 03:53:53 huangjs [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 03:53:56 lelelele: Are you new here? 03:54:04 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 03:54:49 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:55:03 -!- mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:55:39 beach: yes 03:55:42 total new. 03:55:57 where to begin? 03:55:59 lelelele: What brings you to #lisp? 03:56:09 learning languages history 03:56:09 ? 03:56:21 I am trying to understand how perl could be influenced of lisp. 03:56:57 Before I was learning this language history, I though PERL was smth amazing, cause people in #PERL seemed so hackers-like. 03:57:03 lelelele: pretty much everything was influenced by Lisp. 03:57:22 no 03:58:42 Lisp (or LISP) is a family of computer programming languages with a long history and a distinctive, fully parenthesized syntax. Originally specified in 1958, Lisp is the second-oldest high-level programming language in widespread use today; only Fortran is older. 03:59:17 But they forgot about ALGOL 04:00:30 wow, is it still in use? 04:00:53 sorry 04:00:57 yes it is in use 04:01:05 but it belongs to FORTRAN. 04:01:12 so you are right. 04:01:18 LISP and FORTRAN. 04:01:20 two stories. 04:01:35 you got perl/ruby/schema/common lisp etc 04:01:54 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 04:01:59 and they got many C, JAWA smth like that 04:02:30 also COBOL etc in their disposal. 04:02:35 ok, what do you want to say? 04:02:42 lelelele: OK, sticking to the topic of #lisp, do you have any questions? 04:02:43 I want to understand. 04:02:46 "their disposal"? 04:03:00 beach : yes, what language you use? 04:03:05 Common lisp? Schema? Perl? 04:03:12 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 04:03:21 So many lisp influenced, I don't understand what difference. 04:03:32 lelelele: #lisp is mostly about Common Lisp, so that's what pretty much everyone uses here. 04:03:38 ok 04:03:40 good! 04:03:47 This is old good lisp. 04:04:03 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 04:04:09 Does anyone knows why are there so many languageS? 04:04:13 languages*? 04:04:18 *know 04:04:21 why? 04:04:37 what is the difference? 04:04:42 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:04:54 simplicity ? 04:05:04 lelelele: Languages other than Lisp are off-topic here. 04:05:14 ok 04:05:15 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 04:06:06 photon2 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 04:12:26 lelelele: To me, Common Lisp is a brilliant example of a language being designed by people who knew perfectly well what they were doing. Thus, the were able to push the language to its limits, but the stopped before making a single decision that would make it hard to write a compiler that generates very efficient code. 04:13:23 snopi [n=snopi@sigmil.acm.uiuc.edu] has joined #lisp 04:14:05 lelelele: See for instance http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/features.text for the combination of features that makes it worth it. See also http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp for each feature elaborated. 04:14:50 beach: and how is different lisp and common lisp? 04:14:57 I mean oldest lisp and common lisp? 04:15:08 lelelele: When we say Lisp, we usually mean Common Lisp. 04:15:20 lelelele: They are very different languages indeed. 04:15:36 new lisp is written in Text, old lisp is done on an abicus. 04:15:50 how is in real? 04:15:55 I would like to learn Old LISP. 04:15:58 and FORTRAN. 04:16:02 lelelele: If you look at the features in that list, you will find that Common Lisp has the most sophisticated OO system around. 04:16:20 I want oldest languages just for logics,not for commerce. 04:16:46 ok what about old LISP? 04:16:46 lelelele: I don't think this channel will be able to help you then. Come back when you want to know something about Common Lisp. 04:16:51 Would LISP 1.5 be old enough? 04:17:06 I don't know. 04:17:16 Common Lisp could be good too. 04:17:22 if it is alike to old LISP. 04:17:28 or not less powerful. 04:17:36 I just told you that they are very different. 04:17:45 There was a page showing how a LISP 1.5 program runs on Common Lisp with very little changes 04:17:51 As much different as LISP and Perl? 04:17:59 much more 04:18:07 gosh..... 04:18:10 :( 04:18:15 so why you took LISP channel? 04:18:22 that is so selfish. 04:18:33 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:18:34 lelelele: you make no sense. 04:18:39 really? 04:18:49 if you not LISP, you are common lisp 04:18:52 #commonlisp 04:18:54 smth like that 04:19:04 Common Lisp is the industry-standard Lisp 04:19:08 lelelele: I think it is time for you to lurk harder. 04:19:12 where can I find people used old LISP now then? 04:19:21 lelelele: not here 04:19:29 ok sorry.. 04:19:41 but you helped me too, so thank you. 04:19:45 No problem. 04:21:27 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:21:32 -!- elurin [n=user@88.254.108.31] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:21:51 OK, I need to come up with (at least) one more student projects. I have already suggested Stamp (Email reader) and a specialized Common Lisp editor. Any ideas? 04:22:07 can lisp do kerberos authentication through a network protocol? 04:22:32 stassats: thanks, will do 04:23:14 snopi: That question makes no sense, because the langauge doesn't mention networking. 04:23:32 alright, so then can lisp be used with kerberos 04:23:37 snopi: I am sure every implementation has what it takes to talk over a network. 04:24:52 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 04:25:04 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:26:32 what i mean is, is there some implementation of kerberos in lisp? or maybe just a way for a program running by a user with kredentials to pass them on 04:26:59 beach: any demo programs made on clisp? 04:27:31 I mean how they run like .exe or like with Runtime ? 04:28:28 lelelele: Are you talking about dumping an executable image? 04:29:22 yes 04:29:39 most executables are using some sort of runtime, so your question doesn't make sense 04:29:52 I mean in Windows 04:29:59 lelelele: you would have to pack nearly the entire lisp system into that image 04:30:16 can you make executable files for windows XP without any Runtime installing? 04:30:33 ok 04:30:36 I see. 04:30:44 lelelele: so you would end up with a very large stand alone .exe 04:30:56 it can be done however, of course 04:31:01 So how you marketing your programs? 04:31:18 drwhen [n=d@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:19 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:31:28 e.g. if you made nice windows calculator 04:31:45 windows won't understand your code? 04:31:54 lelelele: think java vm here. though it can be done, most ppl don't bother. clisp definitely has those capabilities. but I don't remember the function 04:32:04 some cl implementations compile to C code which you could build with a C compiler, or you could use an implementation which supports executable dumping for your operating system 04:32:17 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:32:46 minion: tell lelelele about executables. 04:32:47 lelelele: please see executables: creating executables: Newcomers to Lisp often ask how to "create an executable" from their Lisp program. http://www.cliki.net/creating%20executables 04:32:49 so you are saying that with C code windows will "understand"? 04:32:51 another way is to include a licensed (or open source) lisp runtime with your application 04:33:13 lelelele: I recommend you quit using Windows anyway. 04:33:28 thanks mindCrime 04:33:30 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit [No route to host] 04:33:31 minion* 04:33:39 nothing? 04:33:49 minion: thanks! 04:33:49 no problem 04:33:54 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:55 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:34:00 gotta love tab completion... 04:34:08 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 04:34:12 beach: I cannot quit, and anyway my apps will be for windows users mostly. 04:34:18 so I just talk about them kk.. 04:34:25 and not open source for sure! 04:34:37 I need to eat too. 04:34:43 lelelele: if you target commercial environments you might want to look at some commercial lisp implementations such as allegro 04:34:48 lelelele: you making it sound like its a bad thing 04:34:54 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 04:35:01 lispworks 04:35:07 no its good thing for web, but I need something commercial too. 04:35:22 so clisp is open source only? 04:35:45 clisp is under gpl, but i bet you are referring to common lisp 04:35:49 open source was there before the web, was just not called open source 04:35:52 however, lisp has more advantages when using it in an open source setting, i.e. it is a self-documenting system where the interactive environment can dynamically extend and access code and documentation 04:35:59 yes common lisp . 04:36:50 I want to sell my program as exe for windows 04:36:57 without a change to see my code. 04:36:59 Is there a built-in list flattening function? I looked, and can't find one; but it seems like it would be an uncharacteristic omission... 04:37:17 lelelele: the applications will run on the user's system as standalone? no internet connections client/server stuff? 04:37:18 kngspook: no built-in, but there is one in alexandria 04:37:26 minion: tell kngspook about alexandria 04:37:27 kngspook: please look at alexandria: Shhh -- it's a secret! http://www.cliki.net/alexandria 04:38:22 stassats`: cool, thanks 04:38:27 minion: thank you too 04:38:27 np 04:38:32 lelelele: and how large will your application be? 04:38:47 small 04:39:00 just it will store data to database 04:39:06 :) 04:39:17 and probably will connect to internet website :) 04:39:26 and "communicate" with the website. 04:39:34 not from browser but from app:) 04:39:54 lelelele: cause, as the saying goes .exe that's "hello world" ~40MB image, .exe that's an excel ~45MB 04:40:07 strange 04:40:37 I used some nicely done programs in windows, small ones but they were like database programs. 04:40:42 I am refering to accordia 1.0 04:40:44 -!- snopi [n=snopi@sigmil.acm.uiuc.edu] has left #lisp 04:40:46 it was fantastic program. 04:40:53 who cares about another fifty megabytes 04:41:10 but from 2.0 they did shit, and so they left arena. But I still use first one, cause it is old but fantastic incredible programed. 04:41:15 dunno what they used maybe C? 04:41:27 for example, with ecl you can make smaller application 04:41:36 not at all if youi take into account that a lisp system brings much more to the user than just the progam itself. debugger, compiler (on the fly compilation), etc. 04:42:42 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:42:43 uxell: the user doesn't care. Let's not pretend that issue doesn't exist. 04:43:50 pkhuong: the user, sure. I was more thinking along the line of the app the user uses has more stuff at it's command 04:43:53 something like that 04:47:25 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 04:51:47 Discordian [n=clive@chills.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:54:04 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:54:41 nivya [n=nivya@207-181-206-240.hnc-bsr1.chi-hnc.il.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:57:57 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:24 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 05:00:27 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:00:37 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.82.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9b5/2008043010]"] 05:02:16 benny [n=benny@i577A0567.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:04:09 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has quit [] 05:04:32 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A0733.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:05:43 sudoer [n=jtoy@121.32.46.94] has joined #lisp 05:08:43 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:09:16 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 05:10:33 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:13:45 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.47.220] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:15:32 Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:18:38 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1CCCF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:00 dthomp [n=dat@c-24-22-103-86.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:04 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1DA39.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:03 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-17-36.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:20:20 Is there anyone here who is using elephant? 05:20:21 tomoyuki28jp, memo from stassats: the result of DELETE on vector can be without a fill-pointer (per spec), e.g., your code will not work in ecl and acl 05:20:38 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-65-119.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 05:21:38 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 05:22:40 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:16 -!- dthomp [n=dat@c-24-22-103-86.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:31:37 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:31:52 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0567.versanet.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:32:04 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:32:48 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 05:32:53 benny [n=benny@i577A0567.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:34:20 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:11 michaelw: did you ever manage to get access to my git repo? only the web interface should be timing out, and even that should be ok for the moment. 05:42:25 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@121.32.46.94] has quit [] 05:43:20 is there a way to create a variable in the current lexical scope instead of creating a new lexical scope with let? 05:46:27 nope. 05:47:55 Nate75Sanders [n=nate@cpe-76-88-157-74.hawaii.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:47:56 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:48:16 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@c-98-218-212-176.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:48:31 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:50:29 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:50:46 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 05:56:03 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-17-36.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has left #lisp 06:04:23 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 06:05:37 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 06:15:59 pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 06:19:24 Good morning. 06:27:46 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:31:23 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 06:40:39 -!- lelelele [n=le@62.212.202.113] has left #lisp 06:45:12 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-186.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:47:00 good morning 06:47:06 -!- kami-`` is now known as kami- 06:47:15 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:47:51 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:49:03 hello kami- 06:51:30 milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.81] has joined #lisp 06:54:17 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.204.81] has quit [Client Quit] 06:56:01 spiaggia: how is your portable FORMAT going? 06:58:48 spiaggia: mornin' o/ 06:59:08 spiaggia: I just spent a couple of hours teaching someone lisp in slime on a shared screen in an ssh session :) 06:59:37 it was an enlightening experience. I think I understand people's parens-fear now. 07:02:35 sykopomp: I find among programmers (mostly younger ones who grew up with IDEs) an irrational fear of white text on black background. So, even the ssh terminal scares some of them. Let alone the rest. 07:02:40 sysfault_ [i=exalted@c-68-45-34-224.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:03:18 kami-: actually, I think it's that people don't stress enough the importance of paren matching 07:03:37 it was amazing watching him fumble around with the structure, indenting it bizarrely, etc. 07:03:58 once he got going and got proper style with them, it was much nicer, but there were points in there where I had no idea where things should go. 07:04:53 sykopomp: as a newbie I find that very difficult, too 07:05:08 I'm just happy to have emacs. 07:06:05 yeah. The biggest thing that helped, I think, was having emacs' paren matching 07:06:24 and, of course, no one would be as excited about lisp if you didn't have a repl to mess around with, so C-c C-c got some big points 07:06:41 sysfault__ [i=exalted@c-68-45-34-224.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:08 -!- sysfault_ [i=exalted@c-68-45-34-224.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:07:21 sykopomp: paredit helps also a lot 07:07:33 kami-: I turned off paredit. 07:07:34 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:07:43 I use it myself, but it's really something you have to sit down and learn. 07:07:58 too much at a time, I was busy enough saving him from horrible emacs surprise-buffers 07:08:10 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 07:08:13 heh. 07:09:20 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:11:03 -!- sysfault__ [i=exalted@c-68-45-34-224.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:11:53 -!- Discordian [n=clive@chills.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:14:26 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 07:14:59 -!- Nate75Sanders [n=nate@cpe-76-88-157-74.hawaii.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:16:58 so I feel like I should definitely stress that anyone who wants to learn lisp get a proper environment for it 07:17:06 not having one seems like a guarantee that they'll hate it 07:17:07 :< 07:18:14 I started with clisp + vim, and I'm still here =p 07:18:32 clisp and vim is a good enough environment 07:18:56 this guy was originally writing lisp in an editor that did not do syntax highlighting, paren matching, or indenting. 07:19:06 ...eww 07:19:17 and ran lisp my compiling and loading the file in the command line, not even going into the repl for interactive testing 07:19:38 that's.. terrible 07:20:04 but it puts things into context. I'm sure not working inside emacs turns off quite a few people. 07:20:06 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:22:38 sykopomp: I think the cusp eclipse plugin can be a great attractor for a lot of people who come from the Java camp. 07:22:57 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 07:23:06 kami-: CUSP is fine, as far as I'm concerned. 07:23:17 honestly, any environment. SLIME might be amazing, and really the best, or whatever 07:23:30 but we can't just give people the impression that it's the emacs way or the highway 07:23:40 but that they really really do need some sort of environment 07:23:42 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 07:23:57 I tried CUSP at a very early stage. It looked very promising, but wasn't apar with slime. 07:24:32 I don't really expect anything to be on par with slime :P 07:24:36 <3 slime 07:24:36 :) 07:24:48 but I really hope stuff like Limp gets good 07:24:51 CUSP, too 07:24:59 A good equivalent of slime for vim would be nice 07:25:17 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 07:25:21 sykopomp: is Limp not a vim environment? 07:25:21 As I've had nothing but frustration for the vim options in emacs 07:25:26 kami-: it is 07:25:35 Tried limp, I should try it again, it had some frustrations with it 07:25:37 kami-: but I hear it's not quite up to par yet 07:25:45 sykopomp: correct 07:25:48 then again, not surprised. Anything vim does is probably not up to par with emacs 07:25:52 to be honest, you know? 07:25:57 it's a pity. Poor, misguided souls. 07:26:17 Being a fellow troll, I laugh at your attempt. 07:26:24 ;) 07:26:39 sykopomp: it's nice to know that on #lisp trolling pro emacs is highly regarded 07:26:49 kami-: hahaha 07:27:02 What can I say? I like being the underdog. 07:27:29 mega1 [n=mega@4d6f52e9.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:27:39 Draggor: last I checked, most people in the editor wars were actually vimmers 07:27:49 I saw statistics somewhere. Highly scientific. 07:28:02 76% of statistics are made up on the spot. 07:28:29 I like the whole slime thing of sending functions to compile, and doing spiffy lookups of things 07:28:47 but vim's dual modes of editing and commands are just aboslutely awesome 07:28:49 no punishing the pinkey 07:29:07 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:29:17 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:29:37 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:29:49 *mega1* looks for the pin key and finds none 07:29:54 *sykopomp* compares the pinky complaint to the "OMG PARENTHESES" complaint 07:30:06 then again, my pinky hurts a lot right now 07:30:07 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:30:08 :( 07:30:25 but like, I use screen, stumpwm, conkeror, and emacs 07:30:28 I find it easier to switch between modes than to add another keystroke 07:30:36 the ctrl key spends most of its time down :P 07:30:46 or bobbing up and down. 07:30:52 I do use screen 07:31:06 but those commands are always split between two hands for me 07:31:07 I also find that dvorak has a thing for punishing both pinkies. 07:31:12 so the stress is a lot less 07:31:18 ls -l is particularly evil 07:31:24 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 07:31:25 ls -la hurts if you've been emacsing a lot 07:31:45 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:33:57 a 'pinky' is a hand? 07:34:49 kami-: just join me in pitying the poor, misguided vim user. 07:35:30 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:04 mvilleneuve [n=mvillene@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 07:36:10 good morning 07:36:26 mvilleneuve: morning 07:49:22 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.163.101.131] has joined #lisp 07:52:19 drwhat was your problem?~ 07:52:27 gr 07:52:31 Draggor, what was your problem? 07:53:11 I think I did report a bug for it, but there were some bindings in insert mode I couldn't change that drove me nuts 07:53:21 Oh. 07:53:46 I should give it a shot again 07:53:47 Sorry about that. I really hope to find the time to work on it. But Limp in vimscript is a dead-end, I'm aiming for a rewrite in Common Lisp using the ECL-enabled Limp. 07:54:03 interesting 07:57:06 I don't have to use vim exactly 07:57:18 Just the basics, insert mode, command mode, vim style navigation 07:57:20 Draggor: of course not. You could use emacs :) 07:57:20 http://common-lisp.net/project/limp for the patch and two trivial tests. 07:57:36 sykopomp: shut it else you have something useful to contribute 07:57:50 Draggor: <3 07:58:10 Draggor, vimpulse is an emulation layer for emacs, but I did not really like it. Buffer management behaves just slightly different, and there were other things I did not like (forgot which ones now) 07:58:14 tic: no reason this shouldn't work on osx, yeah? 07:58:34 tic: I can deal with different behaviors, so long as it all works and doesn't crash 07:58:47 Draggor, might be a problem w/ booting your Lisp. Think that's fixed now. I have an OS X user. 07:59:11 crod [n=cmell@cb8a94-022.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:59:22 Draggor, so check out vimpulse for emacs. might suit your needs. however, SLIME will very likely still have a very Emacsy feeling. 07:59:48 I can live with ctrl-c-c and things like that, heh 08:00:02 Does it let me do vim tabs? 08:00:12 I can't. C-c is how I break out into normal mode. 08:00:18 Don't know 08:00:25 see if you can find the docs and have a look? 08:00:26 I'll poke at it, thanks for the pointer 08:00:32 you're welcome. 08:01:24 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cad4e7-059.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:01:31 -!- nivya [n=nivya@207-181-206-240.hnc-bsr1.chi-hnc.il.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:02:22 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 08:06:07 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 08:06:07 -!- jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:06:10 jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 08:11:28 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 08:11:59 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 08:13:20 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 08:15:17 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.142.76] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:18:39 Is there a sort of nullop in lisp? If I just want to return whatever I pass? 08:19:06 ...just return it? 08:19:36 kngspook: There's an `identity` function. 08:19:51 I realized it works if I just remove the parens around it. 08:20:00 nagi [n=nagi@195.248.67.249] has joined #lisp 08:23:16 ? 08:28:52 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:29:07 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 08:29:37 -!- dfox_ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:30:06 splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has joined #lisp 08:30:09 morning 08:30:15 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:30:32 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:31:58 hoh. 08:32:01 g'day 08:32:16 I'm never going to get used to all timezones at once. 08:34:50 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 08:34:52 good afternoon? 08:35:25 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 08:35:46 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:08 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:58 Well I dunno. 08:43:00 :) 08:43:04 god förmiddag ;) 08:43:54 tic: I hope you haven't sent any monies to datorbutiken.com :) 08:45:43 dfox_ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 08:47:27 bartiosz` [n=user@ejf118.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:47:44 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:49:30 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:51:04 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:53:24 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-56-108.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:55:58 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:56:38 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 08:58:15 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:58:57 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:59:18 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:00:33 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:17 -!- bartiosz` is now known as bartiosze` 09:04:48 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:05:49 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 09:05:59 is there a command in sbcl that I can put in my script which will force it to quit and give a stacktrace? 09:06:24 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA077.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:07:00 ? 09:07:09 Scripting with sbcl? :) 09:07:14 A bit overkill? 09:07:26 kngspook: (break) and the debugger? 09:07:39 *attila_lendvai* needs to reboot 09:07:42 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 09:07:42 thanks 09:09:31 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:11:19 schme_, nope! read about it yesterday. no wonder, they sucked. 09:12:10 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:16:17 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:53 Russel-Athletic [n=Russel@d174.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has joined #lisp 09:17:55 hiho 09:18:00 tic: Ya think? I always got excellent service from them. And with the last order I placed they were the only ones who had my CPU in stock. They even sent me candy that time. 09:18:14 tic: Now komplett.se .. They are a horror :) 09:18:36 i just want to know what the "standard" thing you should do if you want to programm a big project with lots of files 09:18:51 do you just load everything in the main file or is there a nicer way? 09:19:19 Russel-Athletic: asdf 09:19:31 minion: tell Russel-Athletic about asdf 09:19:32 Russel-Athletic: please look at asdf: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/asdf 09:19:36 minion: asdf? 09:19:58 ok thanks 09:20:07 Russel-Athletic: The debate is ongoing regarding if it is a nice way or not ;) 09:20:25 It is much better than nothing at all. 09:20:50 schme_, komplett.se I actually prefer nowadays. Used to be the other way around. 09:21:02 i am just asking because i do a very small student project but i want to know the real way anyhow :) 09:21:13 minion: xach-asdf 09:21:13 xach-asdf: Xach's article "Making a small Common Lisp project" can be found at http://xach.livejournal.com/130040.html 09:21:30 large programs are always tricky to write. you need architectural skills. and the best way is, unfortunately, practice. there are few hard and fast rules. 09:22:35 hanks lichtblau this seems like a nice start 09:22:42 tic: I placed an order with komplett.se some time back. various computer items (to put together to get a working machine). Then I get a mail "Hey we shipped your stuff!" and all they shipped is my RAM. I call 'em up and ask wtf? and "oh yes. we will ship the rest. but we don't have the CPU" 09:22:52 i then go now back to listen to the lecture :) 09:23:03 schme_, right, so maybe you checked the "allow split order" box? 09:23:10 tic: So well whatever I thought.. I can get a CPU somewhere else. Though dustin had none, no one had any. cept datorbutiken that actually had one. 09:23:11 tic: I did not, no. 09:23:25 tic: They just decided to not ship the rest 'cause they didn't have the CPU all of a sudden. 09:23:49 morning. 09:23:50 tic: SO that was all good. I go down to the pickup store. "yes hi. I have these two to pick up". And they're all "no you don't. You only have one" 09:24:22 so they had no RAM at the pickup store for me. and I had to order that too from datorbutiken. and I called the clowns at komplett.se up "oh ya. sorry. we made a mistake. it's all good now" 09:24:30 hello Xof 09:24:30 schme_, alright. that's bad. 09:24:32 and then they send me one of those "my god! you forgot to pay this!" 09:24:38 :] 09:24:43 and I had to keep calling 'em over and over. 09:24:45 bah! 09:25:09 Too bad 'cause I need to buy a new screen and now there's only komplett left :P 09:25:24 ok so Lisp, eh? 09:25:28 09:25:31 How would you test for an empty list? 09:25:40 (if list ...) 09:25:52 or rather, (unless list ...) 09:26:00 kngspook: you might like NULL :) 09:26:59 Hmm...kay, thanks. 09:27:44 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD38E5B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:27:47 kami- [n=user@p4FD38E5B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:22 Are we all polishing our submissions for ILC09? 09:28:40 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 09:28:51 *tic* would like to, but alas. 09:28:58 tic: Recent style advice suggests that the style you advocate should be used only for boolean values. 09:29:00 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 09:29:16 tic: and that (when (null list) ... ) would be better. 09:29:36 spiaggia, thanks for the tip! I'll do so in the future. 09:29:46 really? I'm not sure I like that style 09:29:56 (SBCL fans: that's one style-warning we won't be emitting ;-) 09:30:12 hello spiaggia 09:30:16 Xof: You are, of course, free to have your own opinion. 09:30:18 -!- uxell [n=u@dslb-084-056-132-039.pools.arcor-ip.net] has left #lisp 09:30:21 hello mvilleneuve 09:30:23 hello Xof 09:30:42 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CC58.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:30:53 danlei [n=user@pD9E2CC58.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:31:01 spiaggia, where can I find more style advice? 09:31:20 tic: in the slide show by Pitman and Norvig. 09:32:02 http://www.norvig.com/luv-slides.ps 09:32:05 Thanks! 09:32:44 I recognize it now. Guess I have to re-read it. 09:32:54 It's quite good actually. 09:34:33 jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-73-111.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:34:35 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 09:41:07 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:43:17 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:48:11 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.163.101.131] has quit ["Rebooting"] 09:48:31 any news on XCVB? 09:51:31 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:54:03 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:32 danlei` [n=user@pD9E2C435.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:55:19 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:55:39 It's been a good few years since I've read those slides. That's good stuff. 09:55:51 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 10:02:23 *mega1* thinks (endp list) is preferable to (null list) 10:03:25 xinming_ [n=hyy@218.73.133.216] has joined #lisp 10:04:05 *sykopomp* prefers a plain NIL, with no explicit predicate. 10:07:54 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-174-236.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:09:13 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2CC58.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:12:03 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-56-108.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:34 that's ok, too. But (null list) does not communicate the intention very well. 10:16:01 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.141] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:09 *cmm* doesn't even readily recognize ENDP 10:19:14 attila_lendvai_ [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:19:46 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:20:08 what's wrong with NULL? the NIL/() pun is rather fundamental to CL, after all 10:20:16 i like (when list ...) - i also like int i = 0; if (i) { ... }. i never found it bothersome to understand, but i fail to understand why people insist on putting syntactic markers. 10:23:39 -!- attila_lendvai_ is now known as attila_lendvai 10:24:12 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 10:25:11 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-174-236.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:27:17 [1]edon [n=edon@82.114.94.19] has joined #lisp 10:32:24 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-192.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:32:44 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 10:32:57 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:33:38 jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.46.94] has joined #lisp 10:34:22 -!- kngspook [n=King@unaffiliated/alpha] has left #lisp 10:34:46 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.46.94] has quit [Client Quit] 10:37:21 -!- dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:37:42 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:37:42 -!- [1]edon is now known as edon 10:39:49 -!- drwhen [n=d@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has quit ["\(^^) LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL! "\(^^)""] 10:43:48 Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:44:40 hi ppls 10:44:53 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-2791e355.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["t"] 10:45:15 -!- mega1 [n=mega@4d6f52e9.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:45:33 anybody here an sbcl expert 10:45:35 i got an error doing sh make.sh from the source i got yesterday 10:46:03 lisppaste: url 10:46:03 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 10:46:19 Harag: paste your error output and any relevant platform information there ^ 10:47:40 Harag pasted "Make error" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70633 10:47:53 there she is 10:47:58 mega1 [n=mega@3e44a843.adsl.enternet.hu] has joined #lisp 10:48:16 I use when and unless as well because I'm lazy. But if I want to (or forced to) be explicit I take care to communicate intention and use the most explicit way available. NOT is for boolean context, ENDP for proper lists, NULL for the rest. 10:48:18 you don't have sbcl on your machine. you need a working lisp compiler in order to compile sbcl. please see the instructions. 10:48:51 I have sbcl on my machine 10:48:56 mega1: i do not believe in type tagging code, in particular if it is done only at arbitary places and not enforced by the compiler. 10:49:01 i installed it with apt-get 10:49:06 Harag: make-host-1.sh: 31: sbcl: not found 10:49:13 Harag: make.sh can't find it. 10:49:27 <_3b> try without the sudo? 10:49:32 H4ns: it's a form of comment 10:49:36 so where is make looking for it ? 10:49:46 without sudo i get permission denied 10:49:48 ubuntu 10:50:03 Harag: why do you want to compile sbcl anyway? 10:50:15 mega1: yeah. but then, what exactly makes this comment clearer? 10:50:27 mega1: i also believe in putting as much intention in the code as feasible. sometimes i even put stages of the computation is well-named variables only to achieve that... 10:50:41 mega1: or, asked the other way round, are you really confused (let (foo) ... (when foo) ? 10:51:28 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 10:51:32 H4ns: The version in ubuntu itself is anchient 10:51:33 H4ns: no, as I said I use it. What I don't use is: (null list), (endp obj), (not list), (not obj) 10:51:40 Harag: the shell looks for sbcl in your $PATH. Just try typing `sbcl' in a shell yourself, you'll see whether it is installed properly or not. 10:51:56 and i wanted a way to stay up to date in repeatable manner 10:51:57 mega1: ah, sorry. i misread, propably i'm confused by all the parentheses :) 10:52:08 so i followed the instructions here http://parijatmishra.wordpress.com/2008/08/14/up-and-running-with-emacs-sbcl-and-slime/#comment-70 10:52:08 H4ns: the interesting point is exactly in the ... part: it may be harder to understand if it's less clear what foo is about due to nil/()/false mixing 10:52:34 There's no reason to compile things as root. Use 'chown -R yourusername clbuild' as root to fix things if you did the original checkout as root. Then don't work as root anymore from that point on. 10:52:48 attila_lendvai: so you would write (let ((foo '()) if you intend to use foo as a list? 10:53:20 thanx lichtblau 10:53:21 instead of (let ((foo nil)) ...)? sure 10:53:38 H4ns: not always, but i tend to (although i use "(list)" as opposed to "'()") 10:54:03 (because ' suggests immutability) 10:54:25 yeah, truth to tell I use (let ((foo ())) ...) 10:54:33 also, use "clbuild compile-implementation sbcl" rather than make.sh, because that will also run install.sh to install it into target/ where clbuild will find it. This isn't related to your error, but otherwise a step in the installation procedure would be missing. 10:54:48 i believe that these small things together help a lot when you get back to the code after a month... 10:55:20 mega1: attila_lendvai: i don't believe in this particular suggestion, but maybe you have a piece of code that demonstrates the difference? 10:55:39 When you do that, you don't have to change .sbclrc or .emacs. You use "clbuid lisp" or "clbuild slime" and the rest will work automatically. 10:55:54 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:56:03 And once you get it working, tell the author of that blog post that he's doing it the hard way. 10:56:08 ...and yes, long names, too, like: persistent-1-n-association-end-set-container 10:57:10 thanx lichtblau will try that now and pass on the info 10:57:11 H4ns: the difference is subtle, there's no way i can show you a few lines that changes your mind... it's just a fuzzy feeling that built up after some time. 10:57:28 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 10:59:19 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:59:36 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.73.4] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:59:57 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.73.4] has joined #lisp 11:02:58 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 11:14:41 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 11:14:44 Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-364911.home.otenet.gr] has joined #lisp 11:27:35 stragerLN` [n=strager@c-98-210-158-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:12 Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:30:32 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-192.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:31:46 lichtblau: thanx got everything working now...:)...now onto hunchentoot install...eish 11:34:22 -!- dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:35:42 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:40:21 -!- stragerLN [n=strager@c-98-210-158-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:45:29 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:51:49 lichtblau: do i need to do the ./clbuild dumpcore?? like mentioned in this post http://bc.tech.coop/blog/080116.html 11:54:53 no, it can make startup faster, but isn't what I'd recommend to try things out in the beginning 11:55:26 in fact, I wouldn't compile things using clbuild at all. Use clbuild to download (say, "clbuild install hunchentoot"), then ,load-system in slime to compile. 11:58:10 ok thanx 12:07:18 'hello 12:10:43 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-215.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:12:10 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 12:12:27 esdentem [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 12:15:01 jgracin_ [n=jgracin@93-138-9-119.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 12:16:34 what causes a page fault? it is the first time i see one. is this a hard-disk or a memory problem?] 12:18:18 (using sbcl under debian) 12:18:28 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:20:05 An attempt to read from or write to a virtual address within a page not in physical memory causes a page fault. Generally userland programs don't observe this, because the processor will trap to the kernel, which will read the page into RAM and return to userland to retry the read or write. 12:20:40 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 12:24:10 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:25:22 i now used the asdf stuff but now i get another problem: i have 2 vars defined in main.lisp which uses parser.lisp. if i now access a function in parser.lisp which uses this vars i get an error, that they are unbound 12:25:26 what is the problem here? 12:26:42 so how can i make something like a global variable? 12:30:49 -!- Beket [n=stathis@athedsl-364911.home.otenet.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:32:36 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 12:32:39 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@93-138-73-111.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:39:19 Russel-Athletic defparameter 12:41:05 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:46:17 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:47:02 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:58 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:48:16 Is there a way to build and call some-package::some-func from a package name and a function name? Making a symbol from a string like "SOME-PACKAGE::SOME-FUNK" becomes |SOME-PACKAGE::SOME-FUNK| because of "::". 12:49:23 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:49:57 tomoyuki28jp: you need to resolve the package and the symbol separately 12:50:11 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB9B7A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:50:12 (actually, you are probably solving a completely wrong problem) 12:51:18 cmm: oh really? could you give me an advice? (resource would be fine) 12:51:48 plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 12:51:51 tomoyuki28jp: you mean about the actual problem to solve? you tell us! 12:51:58 good afternoon 12:52:33 tomoyuki28jp: otherwise, read up on FIND-PACKAGE, FIND-SYMBOL and FUNCALL 12:52:43 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 12:53:17 cmm: Can I specify a package with funcall? 12:54:12 tomoyuki28jp: the package-to-symbol translation is usually done at read time. 12:54:37 tomoyuki28jp: by the time you use funcall, you should either have a function, or a symbol (which has a package already). 12:55:09 tomoyuki28jp: FIND-SYMBOL finds a symbol in a package given that symbol's name (which does not include the package name). FIND-PACKAGE finds a package by its name. FUNCALL calls the symbol's function 12:55:47 tomoyuki28jp: but as you can gather from plage's reply, you probably don't want to do that 12:56:36 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 12:57:42 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:57:43 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:59:22 cmm: plage: thanks for the info. let me explain what I am really trying to do. 13:00:41 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:00:58 tomoyuki28jp: 1. use the package name to find the package 2. use the symbol name to find the symbol in the package 3 funcall the symbol or 3a find the function with that name and 3b funcall the function. 13:01:44 dostoyevsky [i=sck@oemcomputer.oerks.de] has joined #lisp 13:02:26 I am creating a socket server, and I want to make the server to call some functions in other packages when the server gets request from a client. But the problem is the packages, the server want to use, are depending on the server package. uhm, I am feeling like I am doing wrong thing. 13:03:16 tomoyuki28jp: Fonctions are not in packages; symbols are. 13:03:28 plage: thank you for telling me the detail. 13:03:33 plage: oh, yes. 13:03:38 No problem. 13:04:38 tomoyuki28jp: you mean you server gets a string like "SOME-PACKAGE::SOME-FUNK" and needs to call the function named by it? 13:05:04 cmm: not really 13:06:22 cmm: ex: I am creating a web app in the package named "web-app" which is depending on the web-server package, but I want the web-server to call the slots function of the class in web-app package. 13:06:47 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BBA077.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07:58 tomoyuki28jp: there are no functions in the web-app package, only symbols. 13:08:18 tomoyuki28jp: I'm afraid you don't make much sense here. there's no notion of dependency between packages, and they don't contain web apps, or elephants, or whatever. packages are just symbol namespaces. 13:08:58 tomoyuki28jp: why don't you make the accessors in web-app use names imported symbols from the web-server package. 13:09:25 minion: chant 13:09:25 MORE ELEPHANTS 13:09:27 tomoyuki28jp: I see you here a lot lately. have you tried reading Practical Common Lisp? 13:09:52 cmm: yes, I did. and ANSI Common lisp and on lisp. 13:09:55 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 13:12:16 tomoyuki28jp: if you define your symbols in the web-server package, and either :use that package in your web-app or use explicit package prefixes, then your web server will automatically call the right functions. I think the problem arises when you don't realize that packages are about symbols and not about function. 13:12:37 tomoyuki28jp: oh. and how did On Lisp go, given that you seem profoundly confused about packages and symbols? 13:12:53 tomoyuki28jp: (don't take me wrong, I'm actually curious) 13:15:31 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.163.101.131] has joined #lisp 13:16:49 plage: thanks for your advice. let me try what you told me. brb 13:17:48 tomoyuki28jp: let me know how it turns out. 13:22:09 tomoyuki28jp: This is how things are often done. For instance CLIM has a package named CLIM, but no code is written with (in-package :clim). Instead there are other packages that :use the CLIM package and code is written with (in-package :other-package) on top of the file. 13:24:44 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 13:26:35 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:29:42 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:30:26 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-56-108.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:03 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:32:30 plage: I did make it work with find-symbol. thanks a lot for your help. (yes, I will modify it to solve in a better way) 13:33:09 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:33:22 tomoyuki28jp: OK, keep us posted. 13:33:37 plage: thank you. you are so kind :) 13:33:56 It's my job to help people. 13:34:07 :) 13:34:56 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 13:35:51 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:36:08 cmm: I love the book "On Lisp" a lot. It taught me the power of the lisp. Actually it's mostly about macros. (no much topic on packages) 13:36:39 true, that! 13:36:48 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:31 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:40:06 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 13:45:56 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:14 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:46:39 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 13:47:56 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:49:32 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:06 -!- maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:50:18 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:43 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:54:35 Zhivago_ [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.18] has joined #lisp 13:57:23 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 13:57:58 -!- tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@unaffiliated/tc-rucho] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:59:52 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 14:02:48 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has left #lisp 14:04:12 Zhivago__ [n=Zhivago@203.222.167.145] has joined #lisp 14:05:41 -!- Zhivago [n=Zhivago@203.222.167.145] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:06:26 jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.250.225] has joined #lisp 14:06:27 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:07:41 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 14:08:13 -!- plage [n=user@serveur5.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:15:03 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 14:15:52 ejs [n=eugen@153-207-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:21 -!- Zhivago_ [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.18] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:16:33 Aankh|Clone [n=pockled@122.163.101.131] has joined #lisp 14:17:34 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1176023269.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 14:18:21 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:18:28 -!- segv_ is now known as segv 14:18:28 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:18:49 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:19:14 -!- edon [n=edon@82.114.94.19] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:21:34 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.163.101.131] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:21:35 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:21:55 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:23:20 -!- esden [i=esdentem@atradig141.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:28:34 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 14:29:45 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:30:27 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:31:10 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 14:31:28 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 14:31:45 envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 14:33:19 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Client Quit] 14:34:02 jlilly [n=jlilly@rrcs-70-63-243-10.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 14:36:21 mchurch [n=user@ec2-67-202-38-234.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 14:36:45 -!- ejs [n=eugen@153-207-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:37:37 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 14:43:58 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 14:44:28 hello 14:44:59 -!- mchurch [n=user@ec2-67-202-38-234.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:46:23 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 14:49:41 tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@190.191.162.100] has joined #lisp 14:52:37 -!- Modred [n=modred@cpe-76-184-107-83.tx.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:55:10 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:59:55 jeromebaum [n=jerome@gtng-4db04257.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:00:08 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:00:26 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:04:58 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:05:28 milanj [n=milan@93.86.115.230] has joined #lisp 15:06:47 -!- tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@190.191.162.100] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:07:01 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:11:47 -!- jeromebaum [n=jerome@gtng-4db04257.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 15:13:41 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbfa09.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:15:52 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 15:17:20 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:17:25 -!- Aankh|Clone [n=pockled@122.163.101.131] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:31 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:18:44 jbaum [n=jerome@gtng-4db04257.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:19:04 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:19:10 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:19:11 tc-rucho [n=tc-rucho@190.191.162.100] has joined #lisp 15:19:13 -!- jbaum [n=jerome@gtng-4db04257.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Client Quit] 15:20:02 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:20:03 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 15:20:48 -!- suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:21:11 suzume [n=user@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:21:19 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-103-31.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:23:44 mindCrime [n=chatzill@216.27.62.2] has joined #lisp 15:24:14 kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has joined #lisp 15:24:34 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:24:49 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@68.237.103.31] has joined #lisp 15:28:50 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 15:30:33 curtosis [n=cmcurtis@208.176.107.226.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:15 envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:33:03 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Client Quit] 15:36:24 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.163.101.131] has joined #lisp 15:38:00 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 15:38:28 -!- jgracin_ [n=jgracin@93-138-9-119.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:40:30 -!- nagi [n=nagi@195.248.67.249] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:40:39 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.250.225] has quit [] 15:42:47 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has left #lisp 15:44:55 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:46:25 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-2791e355.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:46:57 -!- gaja [n=Gabriel@c-2791e355.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 15:47:40 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:54 gaja [n=Gabriel@c-2791e355.017-40-6c6b7013.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:50:14 envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:50:21 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:56:02 Lisp machines are just computers (from the 70s-80s) that were designed down to the hardware level to use lisp, correct? 15:56:32 Quadrescence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lisp_machine 15:56:42 H4ns: Reading now. 15:56:42 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-243-39.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:57:05 vasa [n=vasa@mm-25-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 15:57:45 Somewhat in the sense that the 'Ode to Joy' is just a bunch of noises (; 15:59:35 splittist: Hehe. The reason I ask is because most programming languages -- or, well, languages like C or BASIC are more-or-less close to the hardware on which the code is run. 15:59:54 BASIC is close to the hardware. 16:00:00 oh, man. 16:00:09 I'm writing a pretty basic HTML scraper in Lisp, bit stuck though.. I have got some packages working so I can download the page, parse it into a tree. I wrote a function to find a tag and return that part of the tree, but supposing I wanted to then say "Return the tag containing the tag I found", I'm not sure how I would go about it? By the point you have that tag returned you have lost the context of where it was.. 16:00:09 (Not done a lot of stuff using tree's before) 16:00:15 dlowe: Do you disagree? 16:00:35 Quadrescence: you obviously have... interesting hardware 16:00:37 Quadrescence: it's not worth wiping the disagreement off my foot with. 16:00:56 kzar: did you try closure first ? 16:01:14 fe[nl]ix: Nope, I'm using SBCL 16:01:26 minion: closure-html? 16:01:27 closure-html: Closure HTML [common-lisp.net] is an HTML parser written by Gilbert Baumann, now maintained by David Lichteblau. http://www.cliki.net/closure-html 16:01:28 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:02:01 I saw that but (wrongly?) assumed it only ran with Closure not SBCL or anything 16:02:10 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:02:18 clearly a ban on calling things closure, clojure, clozure, etc. is called for 16:02:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:02:51 oh noes, what am i going to my klosure thing now? 16:02:58 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has left #lisp 16:03:05 dlowe: rsynnott: I very well may be incorrect. But in BASIC, one still allocates/deallocates, pointers, etc...just, the common routines one might do in C. 16:03:17 kzar: Clozure? 16:03:27 (Then again, there are different BASICs, so, we may be thinking of different ones.) 16:03:34 What about my Common Lisp folk dancing package, Clogger. Is that okay? 16:04:22 gigamonkey: As long as you don't pronounce it Clgger. 16:04:32 gigamonkey: I randomly stumbled across your "Gigamonkey's Markup" yesterday. 16:05:20 what with the US election results, I'm surprised there isn't yet a cloture lisp package 16:05:52 elurin [n=user@88.254.108.31] has joined #lisp 16:06:02 Xof: we're waiting to see how those last three senate races turn out. 16:06:15 The Dems could still get a fillibuster proof majority. 16:06:40 the GC occasionally filibusters 16:06:58 I think we all need closure on this joke for today.. it's getting old 16:07:00 heh, yes. "my cloture defeats your trivial-garbage" 16:07:56 it's a generational thing 16:08:10 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 16:08:24 Quadrescence: cool, written any books with it yet? 16:08:28 haha, finally, a comp.lang.lisp post that makes me grin 16:08:32 closer-mop is MARGINAL 16:08:43 Xof: Link! 16:08:44 <996e3cc6-0149-4438-b1a5-4d3235ff2884@x16g2000prn.googlegroups.com> 16:09:01 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:09:16 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:09:18 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:09:49 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:10:04 funnily enough, google groups doesn't find that message 16:10:26 antifuchs: Yeah, weird 16:10:33 antifuchs: indeed "Your search - - did not match any documents." 16:10:37 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/c47fd1fc4330ce6c 16:10:39 stupid google 16:10:48 jsnell, can you fix google's usenet interface? 16:11:12 Or at least find the jokers responsible and make mean faces at them or something. 16:11:47 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:12:58 mean, but not evil, obviously 16:13:35 How about you just make them use it for a while. Obviously they never have. 16:13:55 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-117-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:13 drwhen [n=drwho@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:16 willb [n=wibenton@wireless06.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 16:15:42 replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:15:57 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:16:25 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:16:51 probably just hasn't been indexed yet, unless my timezones are off, that was posted 20 minutes ago? 16:17:09 Has anyone used (Open) Genera? 16:17:38 Hi, I'm trying to work on PCL, but emacs/slime doesn't seem to work as described 16:18:28 Well, for one thing I pasted the message ID in the message ID search box and then clicked the button right next to it and it tells me: "Your search - - did not match any documents." 16:18:28 Is there some common newbie mistake that i can correct to get all the commands working? 16:18:45 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-117-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 16:18:57 Jarvellis: some things have changed in SLIME since the book came out. 16:19:08 What, specifically, isn't working. 16:19:40 C-c C-c doesn't compile functions for a start 16:20:29 mas01dl [n=dlewis@78.145.81.59] has joined #lisp 16:20:31 and C-c C-q doesn't do paren balancing 16:21:02 Oh, and i can't use C-c C-z to get back to the REPL 16:21:58 spiaggia: I'm fiddling with gsharp time sigs at the moment (thanks to your glyphs) 16:22:04 Okay. C-c C-q doesn't seem to be bound to that any more but the other two should work. 16:22:25 Any suggestions for calculating glyph widths for centring multi-digit numbers? 16:22:29 Obviously i've done something stupid then 16:22:30 So are you editing a .lisp file? 16:22:43 yup hello.lisp 16:22:49 gigamonkey: searching for the message id of any of the references of that post works for me 16:23:04 And if so, does the mode line say something like "Lisp Slime" in it somewhere? 16:23:09 in ye olde days people would wait for days to have messages propagate to their server 16:23:25 donkey mail? 16:23:28 uphills, both ways, and they liked it 16:23:36 :)) 16:23:43 jsnell: I'm just curious why on the "no results" page it doesn't show me the thing it failed to find. Makes it seem like the form is busted. 16:24:19 well, it didn't show the thing because it didn't find it :-) 16:24:23 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EE0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:44 Yeah, it says "-uuu:---F1 hello.lisp All L1 (Lisp Slime)-------------" 16:24:46 google groups has been neglected a bit 16:24:52 I mean it doesn't show the search term. 16:25:15 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:25:21 Jarvellis: have you actually started a lisp, though? 16:25:26 (like blogger; Google has a nasty tendency of getting bored of some services and just leaving them) 16:25:37 the modeline should contain "Connected" 16:26:07 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:26:19 cmm: or maybe "CON"? I don't see "Connected" in mine. 16:26:26 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:26:39 cmm: i was using the REPL before i opened the file 16:27:04 gigamonkey: ah, right. seems to be recent 16:27:06 Someone should make a Greasemonkey script to grey out the background of various Google pages the older they get with no improvements. 16:27:55 -!- Khisanth [n=Khisanth@68.237.103.31] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:27:58 Sorry to bother you all, it works now 16:28:00 Khisanth [n=Khisanth@pool-68-237-103-31.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:28:39 gigamonkey pasted "The relevant bits of my slime setup" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70652 16:29:20 Jarvellis: do you know what made it work? So we can help the next person? 16:30:16 gigamonkey: not really, i restarted emacs and it just worked, but i'd tried that before 16:31:51 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:10 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [No route to host] 16:32:17 Xof: indeed, that's a funny post (: 16:33:21 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/c47fd1fc4330ce6c?pli=1 - heheh, caught out :) 16:34:24 as penance, tilton must write an emacs for his weird opengl gui :P 16:35:15 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:35:32 it'd probably only work on allegro 16:35:48 and have 0 documentation 16:36:22 awh, his website's down 16:36:39 I was looking for the picture of the luridly-coloured opengl-based inspector 16:36:52 "luridly-coloured" is just about right 16:37:17 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 16:37:41 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-25-90-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 16:38:35 wow, here's an interesting misfeature. loading trivial-features causes clx to fail to compile 16:39:04 Surely this can't be the first time Kenny has been called out -- is there some context I'm missing that makes this particularly amusing? 16:39:05 Xof: some reader modification or something? 16:39:12 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:40:04 adding :little-endian to *features* 16:40:33 actually I should fix this anyway, because all the clx users on mipsel have probably been wondering what's going on for ages now 16:40:58 it adds little-endian to features? 16:41:06 even on non-little-endian machines? 16:41:09 gigamonkey: it's probably less worth it if (a) you're not a mcclim developer and (b) you spent any kind of time actually looking up the message 16:41:11 rsynnott: no 16:41:17 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:41:28 but its presence even on little-endian machines causes different code to be executed 16:41:37 oh, okay 16:42:03 Xof: those uucp mipsel groups talk of little else 16:42:04 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:43:23 -!- curtosis [n=cmcurtis@208.176.107.226.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:44:07 curtosis [n=cmcurtis@208.176.107.226.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:15 i can only see *after-gc-hooks* in sbcl... is there some conceptual problem with before hooks besides being careful not to cons much? 16:44:34 jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has joined #lisp 16:44:41 -!- esdentem is now known as esden 16:45:30 there have been several extended discussions about gc hooks on sbcl-devel in the past 16:45:58 ok, i'll do my readings 16:46:21 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:51:12 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:55:22 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 16:56:03 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Success] 16:58:51 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 16:59:19 -!- srcerer_ is now known as srcerer 17:01:04 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 17:02:54 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:02:59 kiuma_ [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 17:06:51 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-66.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:09:29 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:09:56 antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 17:10:10 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 17:13:46 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EE0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:13:53 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EE0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:15:13 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:15:14 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:15:23 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 17:15:28 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-117-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:16:15 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["Rebels Unite!"] 17:16:45 jeromebaum [n=user@gtng-4db04257.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 17:18:06 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:18:12 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:19:40 netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has joined #lisp 17:20:18 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:20:36 neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has joined #lisp 17:21:44 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:22:19 -!- jeromebaum [n=user@gtng-4db04257.pool.einsundeins.de] has left #lisp 17:24:57 elurin` [n=user@88.254.108.31] has joined #lisp 17:25:22 -!- elurin [n=user@88.254.108.31] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:25:22 -!- elurin` [n=user@88.254.108.31] has quit [Client Quit] 17:25:44 elurin [n=user@88.254.108.31] has joined #lisp 17:26:13 -!- elurin [n=user@88.254.108.31] has left #lisp 17:26:20 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:26:23 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit ["bbl"] 17:26:33 elurin [n=user@88.254.108.31] has joined #lisp 17:26:38 Heh, Lisp is like English. The grammar is really simple, but there are so many words to learn.. 17:26:59 978 17:27:04 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:27:06 -!- antgreen [n=green@CPE0014bf0b631a-CM001e6b1858fa.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:27:19 Esmil: uh, I've got news for you. English grammar is a nightmare. 17:27:24 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 17:27:41 gigamonk`, shh! don't scare Esmil off! 17:27:55 gigamonk`: did you try hungarian? :) 17:28:03 or latin ? 17:28:15 and Lisp's grammar can be made as complex as you want it to be 17:28:25 adeht, the basics are rather easy though. 17:29:27 attila_lendvai: Now. Though I briefly had a crush on some Estonian girls and looked into learning Estonian which is, I think, distantly related. 17:29:38 s/Now/No/ 17:29:51 It is 17:30:29 The main feature I recall is it has 14 grammatical cases. 17:30:56 IIRC, Finnish (to which Estonian is most closely related) has 21. 17:31:11 Thank God I didn't meet any Finnish girls, then. 17:31:24 *tic* is struggling with the 7 cases of Polish. 17:32:22 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:33:36 Heh, I really like the "My program is just another chunk of data I can manipulate" idea though 17:34:14 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 17:35:48 gigamonk`: hungarian has about 1/6th (~100k) of the words than english (~600k), but we almost explicitly mark grammar by gluing stuff at the end of the words (sometimes 4+ different things), therefore sentences doesn't really have a word order, the alphabet has 44 sounds, but at least it's 99% phonetic, etc... /off 17:36:33 Esmil, gotten into macros yet? yum. 17:36:42 Yes :) 17:37:39 Godt. 17:38:40 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:40:04 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.163.101.131] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:42:07 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:42:26 heh, attila, hungarian is really strange (in serbia i 17:42:44 (in serbia i listening hungarian from time to time) 17:43:19 think it's close to some nordic languages ? 17:43:24 Finnish. 17:43:29 milanj: i'm considering a trans siberian backpacking trip, visiting tibet and to all the way to china... :) 17:44:05 yep, finnish, but mostly it's just the way it sounds 17:44:17 milanj, at least one can understand some parts of what you guys say, compared to russian. peh. 17:44:39 attila_lendvai, based on some mongolic tribe, right? 17:44:51 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 17:45:15 attila, serbia not siberia :) 17:45:31 tic: yep. but the offtopic police is going to catch us... :) 17:45:57 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:46:07 milanj: ehh, xchat is on the laptop screen and it's a bit far for my eyes at this time of the day... :) 17:46:08 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:46:14 attila_lendvai, I was _just_ thinking that I wrote the same line. I'll tend to the noise level by taking a walk now. :) 17:47:10 -!- neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:52:32 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 17:57:13 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 17:57:23 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 18:00:36 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 18:00:40 -!- ksergio [n=sergio@mail.nuecho.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:02:13 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 18:02:50 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 18:03:26 Ne razumem Srpski 18:05:20 -!- adeht is now known as _adeht 18:06:33 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 18:09:21 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10:22 Modius, should learn :) 18:10:42 brandonz [n=brandon@pool-96-238-45-78.prvdri.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:43 hochu recnik 18:11:16 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:11:39 daimi recnik 18:12:18 -!- kiuma_ [n=kiuma@85-18-55-37.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:13:56 we are off topic, i can learn you in #strange-balcan-languages 18:14:49 neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has joined #lisp 18:15:09 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:13 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 18:18:33 milanj: don't they discuss lisp all the time there? (: 18:19:23 (some time ago, people used to joke that to discuss lisp on freenode, you'd have to be in #linguistics, #skating (-:) 18:19:35 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Success] 18:19:44 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:45 mjmcevoy-away [n=user@pool-71-115-116-167.sangtx.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:46 -!- mjmcevoy-away is now known as mjmcevoy 18:25:53 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-117-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:27:00 Does anyone know if and how I can create a pair of streams that are connected, so that I can write to one and then read it back from the other and vice versa? It might be possible using some combination of echo/two-way streams and synonym streams, but even trying to draw it on paper makes my head hurt. And frankly, I can't believe this has to be so hard. I must be doing something wrong or misunderstanding streams. 18:28:31 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-117-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:40 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-117-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 18:30:29 koning_robot: Why do you need a pair of streams? Why not just one? 18:32:03 koning_robot: how about a file? 18:32:31 Because I want to be able to pass one "side" of the stream to a thread to do two-way communication, so yeah, one would be enough because I would be able to pair them with a two-way-stream... 18:33:04 koning_robot: what makes you think that is safe? 18:33:24 also, why would you pass unstructued string data between threads in the same program? 18:33:37 Just use a (thread safe) queue. 18:33:50 pkhuong: because "everything is a bag of bytes"? :) 18:33:56 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:34:09 I' 18:34:20 kreuter: is that quip on strings and obscuring data in minion's db? 18:34:36 dunno. probably should be. 18:34:56 m writing a multiplexer of sorts, it just passes things through to threads. 18:35:51 I don't see how it wouldn't be thread safe, by the way. 18:36:06 if you use character data for that, you're doing it wrong, unless every logical datum is a single character. 18:37:04 The multiplexer doesn't know what it's handling, it just passes strings through. 18:37:18 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 18:37:54 koning_robot: you should probably google for "coprocess" and "deadlock" together. 18:38:10 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 18:38:52 locklace- [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-971356d6ee859ebc] has joined #lisp 18:38:57 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-af1f49396aea7b6c] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:39:20 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:40:25 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Client Quit] 18:40:39 I am... "experienced" with deadlocks... 18:41:11 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9f6c36b4a0b64c07] has joined #lisp 18:41:39 -!- mas01dl [n=dlewis@78.145.81.59] has left #lisp 18:42:02 I'm pretty sure I'm trying to do the right thing... 18:44:47 Because there's nothing saner than transforming data into strings, passing strings around and transforming them back into data. All message passing OO should be based on that concept! There should be a single method: receive, which parses its unstructured homogenous input as it sees fit. That even makes method_missing unnecessary. 18:45:11 pkhuong: that's pretty much how most webservices work :) 18:45:23 jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has joined #lisp 18:45:26 I'm not transforming anything into string, I get strings and pass them on. 18:45:37 rsynnott: what could possibly go wrong! 18:45:59 pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 18:46:08 sykopomp|class [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 18:46:11 In the case of the web, a lot, evidently. 18:46:34 koning_robot: so pass strings around, not an undifferenciated stream of characters. 18:46:40 -!- splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 18:46:59 pkhuong: that's funny, you just summed up how it felt programming Perl, and that's without any fancyschmancy self-piping. 18:47:47 H4ns: so, I can't use bknr's datastore after all :( 18:48:22 Hmm, I think you're right. 18:48:44 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:48:56 H4ns: It's a bit depressing, but I can't possibly fit enough objects into memory sanely. It turns out each of my objects, when loaded up to about what the average will be, take up ~14kb of data 18:49:13 Howdy, and allegro fans here? 18:49:17 so I can't actually fit several million objects in there :( 18:49:24 sykopomp|class: why not? 18:49:39 sykopomp|class: buy more memory 18:50:15 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:50:31 pkhuong, stassats: 1,000,000 objects would take up 14GB of memory. 18:50:38 sykopomp|class: of address space. 18:50:55 I'm considering a purchase, but I'm concerned about not being able to find any reference to a modern stepper like LispWorks has and one can get on SLIME, etc. 18:51:04 pkhuong: 12GB of swap is a lot... 18:51:13 silenius [n=jl@e178028123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:51:39 and this is a webapp that I would expect people to be able to pay a sane amount to get hosted on a server. 18:52:13 somehow, telling people they should get 2GB dedicated and expect to load up 12GB of swap on top of that seems like a bit of a dealbreaker? Or am I missing something? 18:52:17 14 GB of DB data isn't cheap either. 18:52:37 jbjohns: This channel is primarily concerned with free Lisp implementations. 18:53:11 is there one that's more... open minded? :) I mean I don't mind being on free of course, I'm just stuck in a situation of having to develop on windows 18:53:15 At least, it wasn't 8 years ago (ouch). I guess it isn't that much on ec and all that. 18:53:20 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 18:53:46 jbjohns: I believe Allegro has a ML. 18:53:52 ML? 18:53:53 jbjohns: this network is dedicated to free software (: You don't have anything to lose by asking. 18:53:58 jbjohns: mailing list 18:54:00 sykopomp|class: sounds like a perfect match for scieener + solaris + amd64. 16gm of ram shouldnt be that expensive? 18:54:02 ah ok 18:54:40 hypno: why scieener? why solaris? 18:54:41 hypno: I consider 1,000,000 objects to be a bare minimum to support. I would like to support even 10,000,000, which would bump that up to 140GB :) 18:55:05 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@216.27.62.2] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:55:10 well, I wish SBCL would run on windows. I tried the last one that was a suitable color, but it didn't seem to run well. Plus I hate cygwin, etc. 18:55:10 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:55:11 -!- mjmcevoy is now known as mjmcevoy-away 18:55:25 jbjohns: SBCL/win32 doesn't use cygwin. 18:55:27 jbjohns: sbcl runs natively on windows. 18:55:28 I would be quite happy running in Slime 18:55:38 oh is it? Not minicygwin or anything? 18:55:44 jbjohns: No. It's native. 18:55:57 where do I have to go to get this? The repo? The web site shows a seemingly old version for windows 18:56:03 jbjohns: I believe the patches to make the windows version multi-threaded are already in, too. Correct me if I'm wrong. 18:56:12 jbjohns: you get the old version and use it to build a fresh source. 18:56:21 oh that's awesome 18:56:23 sykopomp|class: consider yourself corrected. 18:56:26 sykopomp|class: you are wrong. 18:56:31 okay >_> 18:56:49 I'm clearly unnecessary today. 18:57:12 kreuter: my shift will be over soon. 19:00:21 -!- _adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 19:00:22 stassats`: because it can cope with 256gb om ram out of the box, no questions asked? but why are you questioning this proposal? 19:00:40 _adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 19:00:50 hypno: because i don't like solaris and scieener? 19:01:00 hypno: I have SBCL/linux/amd64 with 16 GB RAM working fine here. 19:01:14 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:01:22 16gb ram is very cheap these days 19:01:53 I kinda wish bknr's datastore supported keeping persistent objects in-drive :( Elephant doesn't seem nearly as nice as far as general persistence goes (not having logging feels like a pretty low blow. Really what I'll miss the most...) 19:02:21 what do you mean in drive? 19:02:23 sykopomp|class: logging of what? 19:02:25 -!- locklace- is now known as locklace 19:02:33 rsynnott: transactions 19:02:49 manuel_: keeping objects in a hard drive, instead of keeping the objects in RAM 19:02:52 sykopomp|class: well, the backends used by elephant will generally have transaction logging, I think 19:03:11 sykopomp|class: that adds a lot of complexity :] 19:03:18 though even if you use elephant, if you have extremely random access patterns you may end up with a lot of io wait 19:03:23 (as I am discovering) 19:03:27 *rsynnott* needs more ram 19:03:30 rsynnott: oh? I haven't actually worked with berkeleydb/sql/etc before, so I'm probably more confused than anything. 19:03:31 oh, please. just because i proposed solaris and scieneer doesnt make it mutually exclusive to everything else. if you particular regligion is linux and sbcl, so stick with it and better yet propose it instead of bitching about alternatives. 19:03:49 hypno: no the question was why these in particular. 19:04:01 well, particularly why solaris 19:04:14 (sbcl CAN be a bit funny about huge heaps, can't it?) 19:05:08 rsynnott: what in particular do you mean by random access patterns? How big a database are you running into trouble with? Also, are you using postgres or berkeley? 19:05:46 rsynnott: major collections will be a pain, but from what SCL suggests, it seems it has similar problems (and solution: promote your data and make sure the oldest generations are never collected). 19:05:48 ~5million objects of varying sizes, postgres with postmodern 19:06:31 15 GB 19:06:31 sykopomp, fwiw, I'm using bknr for a web app, and if I ever need to move from it to sql I won't feel like I wasted my time. bknr is much nicer for the initial development. YMMV of course 19:06:38 pkhuong: well, because scieneer has proven to me to be rock-solid, has a very easy going and quick to respond (commerical) support, excellent smp, etc. as for solaris the same is pretty much true, and i think it stands as a reasonable choice on its own merits alone. 19:06:43 on a machine with a little under 2 GB available to be dedicated to postgres 19:06:52 (happily, the machine will soon have 8gb) 19:06:59 xan: I like bknr a lot. It's what I'm using right now :) 19:07:54 also with bknr you could write some offloading to harddisk kind of code if you need to store bigger amounts of data 19:07:58 like it does with blobs 19:08:05 and wrap the disk access and caching behind transactions 19:08:24 manuel_: my objects are actually filled up with lots of slots with strings and lists of strings. 19:08:51 mutable? 19:09:05 yup 19:10:08 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:10:13 is there going to be more than 1 GB of those? 19:10:38 manuel_: easily 10GB, possibly all the way up to 200GB 19:11:00 alright 19:11:01 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:11:19 you'll need to build an abstraction to offload that to disk then 19:11:59 200GB is A LOT, I believe you can fit a few wikipedias there? 19:12:27 (only the text) 19:12:49 -!- Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:13:32 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:15:08 sykopomp|class: 200GB in any sort of database is a biggish job 19:15:15 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:15:19 yeah, but that's really the upper end of what I would expect 19:15:30 upper average would be about 14-20GB 19:16:02 which is still too large for bknr, really :( 19:16:06 what does the app do? 19:16:18 rsynnott: it's a MUD engine :) 19:16:33 *sykopomp|class* watches interest levels drop like rocks. 19:16:35 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-0113f6e607a2d843] has joined #lisp 19:16:53 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-0113f6e607a2d843] has quit [Client Quit] 19:18:00 do you expect to host lots of MUDs or do your MUDs use insane amounts of memory for some reason? 19:18:28 a single one with a million objects would use about 14GB 19:18:56 sounds like a design issue 19:19:00 anyone currently using a cl framework to talk to facebook? 19:19:01 skyopomp: your expectation of a million objects is a bit out there. 19:19:26 skyopomp: a mud with a hundred thousand objects is impossibly large 19:19:55 isn't nethack the upper bound of what humans can cope with? 19:20:06 dlowe: I've snooped around and found several with 500,000-1,000,000 objects, some with auto-generated rooms that clock in at ~10,000,000 rooms 19:20:10 (ugh) 19:20:42 Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:20:45 anyways, class is over, I'll check messages when I get back home. But you're absolutely right, maybe I'm expecting to support way more than I would realistically have to. 19:20:49 -!- sykopomp|class [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:21:43 10 million rooms sounds insane. Shadow of the colossus has 16 monsters and it's one the best games ever IMHO, less is more. 19:24:00 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-02618bbef706cdf8] has joined #lisp 19:24:35 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 19:24:36 curtosis: I've done so 19:24:41 thing called cl-facebook 19:24:52 rsynnott: looking at it now (: 19:25:05 it works okay 19:25:25 knightblader [n=da465415@monroe.cs.ucf.edu] has joined #lisp 19:25:36 though it doesn't look like it's been updated much for a while 19:26:11 nope, that it hasn't 19:26:22 I think it lacks some of the newer api calls 19:26:32 (though it's all json, so pretty easy to add them in) 19:26:36 I haven't looked closely, but yeah, it probably isn't anywhere close to F8 19:26:48 facebook api docs aren't great, though 19:27:02 so true 19:27:14 mume has a lot of monsters and a lot of rooms, but 10 mil, no way 19:27:27 (in particular, they talk about cookies a lot. The 'cookies' are mostly actually post values from facebook which the php api client automatically inserts into the magic global cookies object 19:27:28 what web framework did you use? 19:27:32 worth looking out for 19:27:35 just hunchentoot 19:27:36 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-4-215.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:27:53 ah, thanks for the warning :) 19:28:17 Do most muds keep everything in memory? I thought they kept as much as they could on disk? 19:28:44 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 19:29:12 I really don't want to jump down the Rails rabbit hole. 19:29:31 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:29:40 especially not just to get a decent FB API 19:30:00 you could jump down the merb rabbit hole... but then hunchentoot is probably still a bit nicer when it comes to debugability (: 19:30:13 well, personally I use Seaside in Smalltalk 19:30:41 I'm investigating Lisp frameworks, but the closest one to what I wanted seemed to be weblocks 19:30:53 been curious about merb 19:31:03 and have heard nothing but rave reviews of seaside 19:31:15 and I'm not sure if that's going to run any faster then Seaside (well, maybe with real threads it will load up better) 19:32:04 the best thing about Seaside (and I guess you can do this with the Lisp frameworks as well) is being able to walk the objects in your framework while it's running to debug things, or data entry or whatever 19:33:45 one of the advantages talked about here: http://sixtyk.blogspot.com/2007/05/keeping-focus.html 19:34:13 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:34:20 very cool 19:34:53 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:35:04 huge productivity boost not having to switch gears to get some test data, etc. 19:35:29 -!- mjmcevoy-away is now known as mjmcevoy 19:35:35 -!- mjmcevoy [n=user@pool-71-115-116-167.sangtx.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.0.4 $Revision: 1.726.2.19 $ (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:35:40 I understand you can do the same in a SLIME environment, but I haven't been able to experience it yet 19:35:50 definitely... I've already seen that in our SLIME/ACL application 19:36:33 only problem with it is; it's hard to go back to the day job using languages where this sort of thing just isn't at all possible 19:36:48 tell me about it :) 19:36:52 :) 19:37:06 I'm on the job hunt myself now 19:37:20 not cut by this economic crisis I hope 19:37:21 -!- Harag [n=phil@wbs-196-2-98-168.wbs.co.za] has left #lisp 19:37:23 and I feel like "oh, Java EE ... how quaint" 19:37:26 sadly, yes 19:37:27 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 19:37:33 ack, what country? US? 19:37:48 US 19:37:48 Or England would be another likely guess 19:37:49 i'm using the slime inspector on viewports (browser tabs/windows) and widgets in running sessions in SymbolicWeb, jbjohns .. say user is working on filling out a form; i can inspect the form and it's values etc. 19:38:23 its* 19:38:24 that's very nice 19:38:43 curtosis: you're in finance? Or just whatever 19:38:46 -!- silenius [n=jl@e178028123.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:38:59 most recently healthcare 19:39:00 but whatever 19:39:10 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:39:17 healthcare got hit by this thing? I would expect healthcare to surge because of it 19:39:38 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Client Quit] 19:39:44 our customer base is (was) healthcare insurers = insurance companies = broke 19:39:59 i.e. people are scared about their money so they start eating the cheapest garbage they can find (e.g. McDonalds), and a month or so later they have to pay you a rather urgent visit 19:40:14 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-115-234.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:40:25 Good evening. 19:41:19 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 19:41:52 well, that's a shame. I'm in Europe, so it hasn't hit so bad here yet. Just fear in the air everywhere. Kind of like that beginning scene in "Saving Private Ryan" where the guys are waiting to put the door down on their boat 19:42:25 -!- pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:42:29 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:42:30 pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 19:42:41 heh... yeah. you lot are a bit better off... only at risk where your banking sector followed our banking sector's relentless drive towards deregulation (: 19:42:49 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:43:13 -!- knightblader [n=da465415@monroe.cs.ucf.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 19:43:14 anyway, I may have to look at merb and seaside for completeness sake 19:43:36 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-18-186.kosnet.ru] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:45:48 I can strongly recommend Seaside. The way you generate HTML is elegant, the continuations stuff is nice and "pay as you go", I find it convenient to just dump the image+exe on the server when I'm done 19:46:10 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has left #lisp 19:46:14 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-971356d6ee859ebc] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:47:11 Some of the Lisp ones looked good (especially weblocks) but I have no experience with them yet, so I can't make any kind of recommendation. I understand weblocks does some auto ajax stuff and automatically downgrades if it detects the browser can't handle it 19:47:16 probably have to write my own fb library 19:47:16 which isn't the worst thing in the world! 19:47:39 though I must say the weblocks demo I tried didn't feel all that snappy for some reason 19:47:41 fb? 19:47:45 facebook 19:47:48 oh right 19:47:57 can't make any money on that stuff now that you have pay, or? 19:48:03 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:48:10 have to pay for what? 19:48:14 jbjohns: this is how we generate html: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-quasi-quote/ 19:48:15 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-fb5b680b3cc79fe1] has joined #lisp 19:48:59 jbjohns: well, this one looks less convoluted: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-quasi-quote/present-class.html 19:49:43 yes, this one does look simpler. :) 19:49:54 But this seems to let you embed html directly in the code? 19:50:04 kinda 19:50:17 abchirk [n=rapunzel@cl-2502.ham-01.de.sixxs.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:39 woah, there is more than one way to generate HTML from CL 19:50:52 LML, LML2, CL-WHO, HTML-TEMPLATE, htout, etc. 19:50:56 hrm, well a lot of people probably like that. Personally that's exactly what I don't want. :) That's what I don't like about the HTML libraries I've seen in lisp so far: it seems to be just those same tags in sexps 19:50:59 I use LML, the old version 19:50:59 the interesting part besides the syntax is that it reduces and compiles the static parts to utf-8 encoded byte arrays at compile time 19:51:00 -!- abchirk [n=rapunzel@cl-2502.ham-01.de.sixxs.net] has left #lisp 19:51:27 ah, yea that's nice about lisp, the compile time stuff 19:52:02 -!- _adeht is now known as adeht 19:52:05 jbjohns: well, i *DO* want to have my lambda abstraction at hand when generating html, no question... :) 19:52:17 jbjohns: i recommend trying the lisp way for a while.. generating via sexps is a lot better than any other way. 19:52:27 oh I don't mean it like that. 19:52:49 I've been looking at the library in the gigamonkeys book. It also has the tags directly in the sexps but it has a special operator I've been thinking about (ab)using to make the commands a bit more how I want 19:53:06 jbjohns: personally, i recommend yaclml 19:53:17 e.g. I don't like remembering some cryptic tag like h2. In seaside you do: header level: 2 19:53:47 even though it's more wordy, it's more intention revealing, and if you override the the renderer to be.... PDF or something, the commands still make sense 19:53:56 jbjohns: html-template has basically "define your own damn syntax" thing :-) 19:54:11 jbjohns: that's another layer above these, but i don't miss it. when i need more abstractions i go to full-blown components directly 19:54:16 that seems a bit DWIMish to me. Eventually you'll be staring at the HTML to do your stylesheet (and debug why it isn't @$%$#% working in IE), so why pretend that it's not? 19:54:30 jbjohns: umm .. that is trivial to do, but it has to do HTML eventually.. 19:54:34 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-56-108.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:54:46 chandler: Not sure what you mean? 19:54:49 so why not generate the html using a sexp based syntax. 19:54:58 chandler: exactly! 19:55:02 drewc: It does have to do HTML, and I like sexps 19:55:32 but I prefer to be thinking about header levels and such rather then remembering, oh it's h2 for that, or 19:55:42 I would prefer to stick it in a library and use something higher level after that 19:55:45 jbjohns: so, instead of worrying that the html lib is not high-level enough for you .. why not use an html library to write your high level thing. 19:56:16 jbjohns: and if you have trouble remembering Hn for header levels, i think you've got bigger issues :) 19:56:19 drewc: I'm not complaining, I haven't had time to get experience in this stuff yet. Just explaining my experience so far 19:56:31 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.159.69] has joined #lisp 19:56:49 jbjohns: What I'm trying to say is that given the current state of the world, any higher-level abstraction layered on HTML is going to be leaking more than a post-Iceberg Titanic. 19:56:51 something highlevel can't / shouldn't replace something lowlevel .. heh 19:56:52 drewc: h2 no, but which attributes do what in some of the lesser used tags, absolutely 19:56:57 And I don't like leaky abstractions. 19:57:01 ..it should build on it 19:57:09 chandler: I don't think the one seaside has does 19:57:52 jbjohns: I disagree 100%, having used both seaside and UCW 19:57:53 But even with h2, that's ugly and cryptic. I don't like names like that in my code 19:58:06 josemanuel [n=josemanu@11.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:58:09 jbjohns: then don't write web pages? 19:58:13 So, the Web is crap. Do something else. 19:58:23 Well, for very limited scope like inside a lambda fine 19:58:39 Why skip writing web pages? I'll just use an API I like better. :) 19:58:52 jbjohns: you seem to be missing the point entirely 19:58:59 ok 19:59:06 what's the point then? :) 19:59:34 Say, if not the Web, how about the Semantic Web...? 19:59:53 for me the point is: I have some component. I want to declarative describe how that component looks. I don't want to be describing it with perl looking syntax. 19:59:55 I don't know about you, but I spend about 10% of my time actually putting together the output code, and 90% debugging stylesheets across four major rendering engines. I can't get away from the garbage, so trying to pretend it's not there in the least-painful part of the exercise is... futile. 19:59:56 jbjohns: again, if you need higher abstractions then use components to build up a gui description (like document, chapter, etc) and render it to html. the one you are missing is some kind of middle ground that i personally wouldn't do... 20:00:07 jbjohns: the point is that your higher-level leaky abstraction _has_ to generate html at one point. 20:00:37 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0E3EC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:46 you seem to want to add an extra level between your description and your output format that is close to your output format but with longer names. 20:00:47 just as our higher-level leaky abstraction programming languages have to generate machine code at some point... oh wait 20:00:51 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9B7A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 20:00:55 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 20:01:03 jbjohns: ok, you lose. 20:01:07 Any higher level abstraction has to be darned near perfect (and any problems need to be Somebody Else's Problem), or it's not worth bothering IMHO. 20:01:33 uh.... you can tell someone is good at discussion/debate when they come out with gems like that.... congrats 20:01:37 jbjohns: playing the turing card gets you ignored... yawn. 20:01:39 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB9B7A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 20:01:51 drewc: I don't think that's what he's saying. 20:01:52 playing the turing card, wtf are you talking about? 20:02:07 sooner or later, all languages can do everything 20:02:09 I'm pointing out the flaw in your non-logic 20:02:39 jbjohns: If I had a nice high-level compiler but no source-level debugger, I'd probably feel this way about the compiler too. 20:02:51 and that is: We are here because we count on Lisp or whatever higher level language to make us more productive. We don't see it as any kind of "leaky abstraction" when it saves us from dinking around in assembly 20:03:19 In practice, I don't have to know anything about assembly to write in Common Lisp or Smalltalk. But eventually any problems in how my web page renders need to be debugged at the HTML level. 20:03:24 But you think I must be insane for now wanting to dink around with "low level" html when I could have a higher abstraction of it 20:03:44 Well, the point is that it leaks a lot less. 20:03:55 jbjohns: i have needed DISASSEMBLE and was glad it was there.... is that a leak? i think so. 20:04:04 chandler: I think this problem can be solved, or at least I'm not willing to give up on it just because it has some challenges 20:04:05 -!- pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:04:07 yagur [n=yyaaa@211.109.158.113] has joined #lisp 20:04:25 drewc: So now you don't like high level languages either? 20:04:36 pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:46 what exactly is high level anyway? 20:04:49 jbjohns: you are so right .,.. great insight you have there. 20:05:04 jbjohns: I don't think you're insane. I just think you're way more optimistic than I am. The Web is a gigantic waste of time and energy and effort and bandwidth. I don't have any hope for making it any better any time soon, unless the "better" method is to write a plugin that completely replaces HTML with something sane. 20:05:32 I mean, I know the pain of CSS. I had planned to make a high level language for that as well that could hopefully generate output depending on the browser it rendered to. This seems to me a better solution then all these awful CSS hacks, etc. 20:06:06 but how would you start doing this, jbjohns ? 20:06:10 at the top? 20:06:11 but chandler, this is exactly when you want abstraction: when you have something nasty that you have no choice but to deal with and you hope it goes away some day. :) 20:06:14 jbjohns: I have such a language.. and you know what? it generates HTML and uses yaclml to do it. 20:06:53 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 20:07:02 drewc: If you already do something like this then why all the venom at my rather general comments? Someone told you CL people are assholes so you thought you needed to play the role? 20:07:13 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 20:07:40 Inostdal: What do you mean? The CSS part? 20:07:58 jbjohns, the "any" part 20:07:59 jbjohns: That works if you know the implementation of the abstraction inside out, just as I can debug a lot of things that go wrong with SBCL because I know about its internals. But as an ordinary user, I don't need to be thinking about VOPs and DEFTRANSFORMs to understand what happens when I get an error in my program. If I use your abstraction to design a page and it renders incorrectly, how do I debug it other than to hit "view source" a 20:08:03 jbjohns: you got it .. i'm just an asshole and not trying to help at all. 20:08:37 drewc, jbjohns: I think you are talking past each other at this point. Cool it. 20:08:51 drewc: You seem to have a lot of heat in most of your responses, like I pushed over your sacred cow or something. I'm here to just discuss things, not convert you to something 20:09:56 jbjohns: relax... all i did was try to give advice from experience. If it seemed heated it's only because i've been down the path. 20:10:18 chandler: Have you looked at seaside? They have a "halo" system where you can turn it on and put a box around all the currently rendering components in the web page, and in those you can "render" or you can "view source" which will put HTML, but just in that box 20:10:48 drewc: the path where you find out that coding for the web is needlessly painful/badly layered? 20:11:33 I suppose I would look toward something like that. But I think the big key here is trust. 20:11:44 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 20:11:54 mogunus: indeed.. that's the one. whay jbjohns doesn't know is that i maintain UCW, which is the Lisp version of seaside essentially.. so this advice comes from the heart. 20:11:58 jbjohns: I have not played with it extensively. I'm still trying to understand how that saves me from knowing the CSS box layout model inside out so I can debug whatever new and exiting form of noncompliance I run into when trying to make a basic web page. 20:12:46 chandler: Seaside doesn't. But I think if we switch from a "page" view to a "component" view, and style from that aspect I think it can be done 20:12:47 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 20:13:24 jbjohns: I'm still having trouble understanding how that solves the "browsers are crap" problem. 20:13:26 It would require a CSS abstraction of some kind to be made up that would keep track of all these little inconsistencies across browsers and so on. 20:13:39 drewc: I have this tiny dream where, instead of HTML, the web is a bunch of hyperlinked clim applications. 20:13:54 too bad you wake up 20:14:07 who each render some sort of html, mogunus ? 20:14:08 :) 20:14:17 lnostdal: lord no 20:14:19 That's the point 20:14:22 chandler: Right now how does it work? Each of us digs around the web looking for hacks to do what we want in CSS. But most of these things are known. If they could be in one place, a library of some kind, wouldn't that make it easier? 20:14:22 mogunus: hah .. i actually have a CLIM backend for lisp-on-lines that lets me write the same code for GUI or HTML... 20:14:33 FSVO "same code" anyway. 20:14:40 mogunus, i've noticed qt designer and the gtk+ thingy generates xml now .. just saying 20:14:47 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:14:51 mogunus, ..maybe it's a circle 20:15:08 If that abstraction works perfectly, there is no problem. The minute it breaks, I have two complicated things to understand: CSS *and* the abstraction. If there are enough users and maintainers that any bug I find is Someone Else's Problem, that's not an issue. But that's a steep hill to climb to get to that point. 20:15:09 glade it was .. the name 20:15:10 just send lisp programs over the wire and execute them in a sandboxed lisp image. 20:15:25 drewc: I think you win the crazy hat for the day. 20:15:26 the best solution would obviously be to model each web "component" as an Eclipse plugin with different aspects for each browser ... run the whole thing as headless Eclipse 20:15:38 sellout: :D 20:15:40 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:53 geekux [n=geekux@217.5.184.10] has joined #lisp 20:15:56 Paraselene_ [n=Not@79-68-228-157.dynamic.dsl.as9105.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:57 chandler: But what if you had this "halo" concept, where you can say "show css source" and your malfunctioning component is shown as html+css so you can debug it in the browser? 20:16:05 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:16:14 jbjohns, does IE have it? 20:16:20 have what? 20:16:25 This `halo' concept. 20:16:30 Riastradh: indeed .. it's part of seaside. 20:16:36 Then I still need to do the reverse mapping to understand how to fix it in my application. 20:16:43 no no, the thing that serves the pages does this, nothing to do with the browser 20:17:10 Riastradh: ucw simply calls it *inspect-components*, which is what it does really. 20:17:26 And if the abstraction is suitably high level, then chances are the misrendering I'm encountering is not my fault but the fault of the implementation of the abstraction itself. 20:18:21 chandler: Well, you have two possibilities: (a) you see code that doesn't make sense and realize you made a mistake when you declared the styling or (b) you see what looks like a render bug that you send to the maintainers 20:18:26 -!- Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:18:38 drewc: So UCW was based on seaside? 20:18:42 Obviously eliminating leakage of this sort in any system is impossible, but I'm arguing that given the current state of web browsers trying to put together this abstraction is almost certainly a losing battle, and we'd be better off just writing a Lisp or Smalltalk browser plugin with its own canvas. 20:19:16 Well, I wouldn't say it's a losing battle because we're doing it right now today, every day 20:19:32 reinventing the wheel? 20:19:34 .. and write such a plugin for clo?ure browser 20:19:37 Just at the "assembly" level. If it can be done there, I bet it can be done higher up 20:19:40 jbjohns: yes.. in essence. It's component based like seaside, and has call/cc 20:19:45 chandler: is anyone working on that? 20:20:04 Adrinael [i=adrinael@rid7.kyla.fi] has joined #lisp 20:20:27 mogunus: Not to the best of my knowledge. 20:20:31 and as for the plug in thing, it's hard to get people to install yet another plug in. The best thing I saw for this was Vista Smalltalk. Some guy in Canada had written a lisp compiler on top of Silverlight and Flash, and build a smalltalk system in lisp on that 20:20:48 Oh yes, I have seen Vista Smalltalk. 20:20:56 so you could write in Lisp/Smalltalk but run in existing plug ins. Unfortunately I think he died or something 20:21:03 all this search for "abstractions" that make "web programming" "easier" reminds me of the 4gl tools of the nineties, where you were promised that you could create applications without writing code. how shameful. face it, if you want to program web apps, you need to master html, css and javascript. the is no way around that. 20:21:05 hasn't updated his blog since he made some house move 20:21:26 H4ns: and very often, a database query language, as well (: 20:21:27 unless you are satisfied with clumsy stuff created from building blocks. congrats! 20:21:46 antifuchs: I still dispute that part. 20:22:00 antifuchs: i'm not sure if i have ever seen any sql in the client side of a web application. 20:22:06 At least, I haven't yet needed to understand relational databases. 20:22:09 H4ns: oh, client side 20:22:13 drewc: I knew about the call/cc. You use Paul Graham's call/cc right? 20:22:14 antifuchs: and you can always leave that part up to the lamp monkeys :) 20:22:23 H4ns: I thought you were talking about the whole application stack 20:22:26 antifuchs: sure. web applications are about the client side, mostly. 20:22:35 jbjohns: lol no.. never 20:22:36 ineiros_ [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 20:22:48 oh really? It's not like defun= and all that? 20:23:04 jbjohns: it's an interpreter. 20:23:04 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has quit [Success] 20:23:05 H4ns: on the UI side of things, yeah. in my experience, a lot of things happen on the server side, as well (: 20:23:25 (and thank god they do, otherwise I'd be short a job right now (-:) 20:23:35 jbjohns: We have in interpreter for a subset of CL that supports delimited continuations 20:23:39 drewc: Be warned. The next target of my ire towards leaky abstractions is "call/cc" in Common Lisp. 20:23:47 antifuchs: well, if you leave out the "create html from clumsy templates" part, it boils down to the stuff that can be very elegantly solved in, say, common lisp. 20:24:03 ltbarcly_ [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 20:24:05 chandler: one could argue that call/cc is scheme is leaky enough. 20:24:19 in scheme* 20:24:48 Ah, cool. Honestly I didn't get too far with UCW. A colleague used it and he complained about incredible macrology that he had to debug, and the howto I read (the top one on the list no less) was pretty negative on the framework 20:25:12 jbjohns: it used to be based on an even more magical codewalker. 20:25:25 jbjohns: ya, there used to be a codewalker from hell, ala weblocks 20:25:51 impossble to debug 20:25:59 ah. Well, I don't let second hand speech deter me from trying, but it does ring in your head when you start seeing other signs 20:26:58 chandler: continuations aren't necessarily that leaky; ``transparent'' ones, though :| 20:27:00 jbjohns: I'm working on a fresh new UCW release with docs and the like. 20:27:08 ah, glad to hear that 20:27:24 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 20:27:38 jbjohns: if you'd like to try it, i'd be more than willing to help you get started. 20:27:42 I think it's time to revisit a pure CPS language again. Continuations are clearly /it/ when it comes to doing web stuff, so I have no doubt that Cthulhure will soon be the most popular web programming language ever. 20:27:59 i'd like the opinion of someone with your ... opinions. 20:28:01 :) 20:28:03 mindCrime [n=chatzill@216.27.62.2] has joined #lisp 20:28:07 hehehe. Thanks 20:28:41 I try to be straight without being hateful. But having thick skin myself (usually!) it may not always come off as neutral as I intend 20:28:43 chandler: certain about that? CPS frameworks can make navigation pretty hellish. 20:28:47 drewc: I've been looking at ucw as well... it seems like tweaking some components to work with the FB api would be relatively painless 20:29:03 pkhuong: you certainly missed to see the invisible irony tags 20:29:10 curtosis: have you been using ucw-core, ucw_dev or ucw_ajax? 20:29:44 haven't used as yet... just started perusing the docs today (after a year+ absence) 20:30:04 How do you think UCW will stack up against weblocks speed wise? 20:30:12 pkhuong: My last attempt at a pure CPS language combined the conceptual simplicity of Haskell with the familiar programming model of Forth. I think my next one will add in Clojure-style parallelism to the mix. I can't see why it would be hellish at all. 20:30:21 jbjohns: it depends what you mean when you say 'weblocks' 20:30:37 weblocks is two things, a framework and a component library. 20:30:47 Well, I just mean the demo I tried felt really sluggish. That really concerned me 20:30:50 one could implement weblocks on top of UCW. 20:30:55 oh, faster then :) 20:30:59 :) 20:31:06 but ... 20:31:28 UCW itself no longer has any ajax magic, and very little magic magic. 20:31:45 I mean, in honesty that's pretty poor on my part not having tried the thing locally, but it's a bit of an investment to set all this up only to find out it's no faster then what I've already been doing in Smalltalk 20:32:28 but how much deep magic? 20:32:38 you don't do ajax in UCW now, or just not magically? 20:32:41 dcrawford: the deep magic remains. 20:33:33 chandler: Continuations seem pretty nice in Seaside, just because using the back button works exactly as you would expect. These ajax-only web sites drive me nuts, since I'm a heavy back button user 20:33:33 jbjohns: UCW does not contain any ajax components in the core distribution. It will be up to somebody else to port the ucw_ajax tree over to the new core. 20:33:57 ok, fair enough. Seaside does it mostly that way too, so no disappointments there 20:33:57 drewc: some of the UCW docs are a bit scary ... is there a recommended best place to start currently? 20:34:15 +1. I would do something about that top one. The guy scares you off before you even start 20:34:39 i was not aware there were any UCW docs. 20:35:13 tutorials linked from the web page 20:35:15 oh those right... 20:35:33 *drewc runs and hides* 20:35:40 jbjohns: Well, eventually you have to commit *something* and introduce a barrier that you can't go "back" across. This is just another artifact of using a document-retrieval model for what should have been an asynchronous messaging framework. 20:35:57 To the extent that you can make ordinary navigation work in your application by using continuations, it's fine. 20:36:04 http://www.cliki.net/ucw%20Tutorial 20:36:32 ya ... that guy was a bit of an oddball IIRC 20:36:57 chandler: In Seaside you can configure how far back that goes, it's usually timed base, but the whole thing is serializable. In theory you can have it as long as you wanted 20:37:27 How does it go back across a credit card payment, or the "fire death ray" button? :-) 20:37:28 drewc: I am happy to hear you cleaned up UCW, I never got courage for this. I love UCW's core, but I did not like its tightly coupled framework style add-ons, especially ajax. More often than not I like to generate links myself for example, and I write monsters like: (ucw::make-new-action (ucw::context.current-frame *context*) (lambda () (with-call/cc (da-logout (context.window-component *context*))))) 20:37:33 But there is a means of introducing barriors for the case you *want* them (e.g. don't let user accidentally get double charged) 20:38:07 fire death ray a second time :) 20:38:50 it fires on the signal edge change :P 20:39:20 I don't mind AJAX web apps so much, but the "don't ever hit back" rule is already pretty ingrained in me. I wouldn't mind if sites were allowed to locally disable navigation. And even in the document-retrieval context, the linear "back/forward" model always seemed obviously stupid to me. Why not a digraph? 20:39:25 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:39:27 the worst thing about the whole continuation approach is jokers like me leave their freaking browsers open for literally years on the same page, so how to not expire those but expire people who left after 10 seconds. I have some ideas for it though.... :) 20:39:37 dcrawford: I *knew* I forgot a flip-flop in that circuit.... 20:40:00 jbjohns: Simple. Just encrypt the continuation and send it to the client. You don't have to expire it then :-) 20:40:23 hrm, interesting idea, but it's going to be pretty large I think. :) 20:40:34 this is what i think about the back button (basically what chandler sais): http://www.lispforum.com/viewtopic.php?f=20&t=38#p348 20:41:10 My idea was a little ajax keep alive set just before the expiry time. This would let me set the timer way way down from what it is now 20:42:34 attila_lendvai: I disagree. If you'r site is mostly ajax then this happens, but if it is more server-side-oriented then the back button is effectively "undo" 20:42:34 The way the web is going, in ten years' time we will be running client-side applications written in C++ or Python or whatever on a VM which is being interpreted in JavaScript and communicating with the server in an emulation of SCTP that is layered over continually-open HTTP requests, and wondering why the bandwidth on our LTE network seems insufficient to handle Google Mail. The obvious answer will escape almost everyone. 20:43:24 chandler: (require :3270) 20:43:25 *mejja* wonders what the answer is... 20:43:25 Yes, the obvious answer being that Senator Stevens' tubes have been clogged by the internets people keep sending him with Google Mail! 20:43:29 I think all the same problems apply to "undo", but applications are allowed to disable undo past certain points (or not to insert undo events for certain actions). 20:43:42 jbjohns: there are things you can't (and sometimes shouldn't) undo. period. 20:43:52 fine. That's supportable 20:44:00 And some applications (Photoshop, for starters) even figured out that Undo was a digraph, too. 20:44:03 puchacz: I'm glad you feel that way! I use UCW as a backend for lisp-on-lines, so having a solid core that is easily extended was crucial. 20:44:05 attila_lendvai, pants aren't one of them :P 20:44:25 attila_lendvai: good lesson for life! 20:44:25 In seaside that's called "isolation". I guess this is a delimited continuation in other systems? 20:45:14 granted when you hit this isolation situation it does look funny, i.e. any action you make puts you to the page you were before hitting back 20:45:27 billstclair [n=billstcl@dcha-ab098.taconic.net] has joined #lisp 20:46:17 chandler: What do you mean exactly? Doesn't clicking undo just undo the last thing you did? 20:47:26 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EE0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:47:29 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:47:35 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EE0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:35 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:37 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:47:53 *rsynnott* strongly objects to sites where the bakc button doesn't work properly 20:47:58 jbjohns, yes, but sometimes it undoes the undo 20:48:24 or especially webapps which can only tolerate one open page 20:48:28 (surprisingly common) 20:48:54 ivanst_: but that's a situation where you "went past the end", no? I mean there are 10 undos allowed and you did the 11th? 20:49:16 hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:49:29 I agree with you rsynnott. I guess it depends on how one surfs 20:50:58 jbjohns: I skimmed some of the earlier conversation. I'd just point out that the HTML libs described in PCL have a macro facility. So you can define whatever higher-level constructs you want and still get efficient html generation. 20:51:19 gigamonk: Yes, that was what I had in mind to do 20:51:23 exactly that 20:52:51 Hrm, I'm confused about what was said earlier about SBCL. If all that needs to be done to get a nice native windows binary for SBCL is run the build under an older SBCL then why is the windows version yellow, even though it's the newest version? 20:53:07 Couldn't someone just do a build on windows under the last SBCL and be finished? 20:53:24 jbjohns: because it's still considered in beta. The colour has nothing to do with the version of the binary. 20:53:40 (gigamonk`, I still like how your nick goes from a fat religious guy to king kong :P ) 20:53:42 but it has to do with the confidence in it, no? 20:54:17 I mean, if I do the procedure will my binary be a "yellow"? :) 20:54:24 yes. 20:55:00 ah 20:55:03 jbjohns: it can still be somewhat unreliable (the windows one) 20:55:09 as in? 20:55:36 jbjohns: I mean that you can undo three actions, do two more actions, undo those, and then redo the first batch of three actions 20:55:38 dcrawford: yeah. If I was more IRC savy I'd probably figure out how to use ghost more effectively when I move from my notebook to my desktop machine. 20:55:39 Can I run something big and..... suitably complex like e.g. UCW in it? 20:55:59 chandler: oh, that's nice 20:56:15 so it's like a darcs inside the application. :) 20:56:19 disumu [n=disumu@p57A26A80.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:34 At least I think it was Photoshop that I saw do this. 20:56:57 chandler, gosh, does PhotoShop actually calculate the commutations of every operation? 20:58:03 (every pair of operations) 20:58:23 It is yellow because it has not yet been deemed "done". 20:58:40 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:57 A port isn't just a build... 20:59:03 Yes. 20:59:18 Yes. 20:59:20 *Riastradh* blinks. 20:59:42 gigamonk`: is markup-0.3 the latest and/or is there a version control somewhere? 20:59:56 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 21:00:00 Well, there's an hg repo on my machines. 21:00:02 Also, building on Windows can be a bit hairier than the other platforms, so just use the binary that's up there if you can. 21:00:51 chandler: ok, I was just going on what was said earlier. If all that's missing is threading I can live with that. My windows box is just for developing 21:00:59 Though it's a repo of all my stuff (Monkeylib) and I'd have to clean it up a bit before I could make it public. (It has some stuff specific to publishing my blog to my webserver on it. Hopefully no passwords are actually checked into the repo but the content is.) 21:01:13 gigamonk`: WRT IRC, we can put a proxy up for you if you like... you can connect from various clients to the same, always on, logged connection. 21:01:32 Wow! Technology. Is that what the cool kids do? 21:01:37 Riastradh: No. It's not an unlimited history. 21:01:45 gigamonk`: it most certainly is 21:01:51 drewc: I recommend miau (: 21:01:59 Dang. I've been missing out. 21:02:08 (if you aren't familiar with it already (:) 21:02:08 chandler, it'd be pretty cool if it actually did compute commutations. 21:02:08 gigamonk`: you bet... we used to smoke cigarettes.. now its IRC bouncers. 21:02:26 sounds overengineered compared to running an irc client in screen :) 21:02:31 Riastradh: Er, they're storing previous images. 21:02:31 antifuchs: i forget which one i'm using. 21:02:50 Anyway, don't take my word for this. 21:02:55 hefner: multiple clients can connect at the same time! 21:03:08 drewc: screen -x 21:03:14 gigamonkey pasted "Been a while--sorry kreuter. C@W snippet" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70671 21:03:32 Riastradh: try that from a windows machine at some internet cafe :) 21:03:52 What's a `windows machine'? Does it involve squeegies? 21:04:16 drewc: This is something I could run on (say) my VPS? 21:04:16 And an internet cafe? A place where internets are served on platters, rather than in tubes? 21:04:16 windows machines at internet cafes are usually pretty conducive to ssh 21:04:18 I'm with hefner. screen + irssi works fine. 21:04:26 Sorry, I'm done. 21:04:38 either via a web-ssh gateway or preferably downloading putty 21:04:42 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:04:42 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbfa09.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:04:42 gigamonk`: indeed, that's where i run mine. 21:04:49 gigamonk`: well, not on your VPS .. 21:04:56 but you get the idea. 21:05:09 Which one do you run? 21:05:23 'bip' i think is the name 21:06:45 bip+bitlbee and i'm connected everywhere all the time. 21:06:56 drewc: putty is easier to run than an IRC client. 21:07:19 chandler: meebo.com 21:08:27 NuMaStresa [i=1000@unaffiliated/numastresa] has joined #lisp 21:09:04 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:11:27 hkBst [n=hkBst@70pc222.sshunet.nl] has joined #lisp 21:13:37 fwiw, i have a VPS running slackware and when i was backpacking i was able to fire up putty off of a USB disk and get IRC, web, mail and just about anything else. 21:13:40 hi, why it's such a good ideea to put all the paranthesis one one line and to don't indent them like you do on c++ or java ? 21:13:48 on * 21:14:01 NuMaStresa: because of longstanding tradition. 21:14:02 NuMaStresa, because it becomes unreadable. 21:14:11 it wastes space on our precious terminals 21:14:20 and it's plain ugly 21:14:28 NuMaStresa, Lispers don't care about parens, they only look at indentation and press ) until the editor colors it red. :) 21:14:30 And Lispers users editors that let them balance parens and jump around them easily. 21:14:35 though Garnet does C style paren closing in Lisp :-) 21:14:49 fusss: burn them! 21:14:50 There are always heritics in our midst. 21:14:56 no wonder garnet died. 21:14:59 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:15:10 And apparently McCarthy still writes Lisp like he was using punchcards with no extra whitespace at all. 21:15:18 is there anything worth scavenging in garnet? 21:15:20 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit ["bye"] 21:17:34 hefner: Garnet is Self + GUI in CL 21:17:38 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:18:01 Garnet is closer to Flash than CL, thus, a good starting point for a CL flash API 21:18:28 all garnet research moved on to Amulet, which, clearly, was ripped off by flash (IMHO) 21:18:59 except Amulet did raster graphics and traditional GUIs and flash started with vector graphics and animation, only later adding GUI 21:19:08 *tic* keeps thinking the current PalmOS 21:19:15 I like raster graphics 21:19:27 pixel art rocks! 21:20:11 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.29] has joined #lisp 21:20:19 bew [n=chatzill@82-35-250-119.cable.ubr04.dals.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:22:05 right when we got enough memory and cpu to store high resolution bitmaps and scale and filter them nicely, everyone jumps onto vector graphics instead 21:22:12 beach: herep 21:22:14 just to keep things slow and complicated, I guess. 21:23:52 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:24:04 *fusss* think there isn't much literature on code optimization for stack machines 21:24:20 ah sweet, sbcl in emacs at last (on windows I mean). :) 21:24:26 hefner, it's like available floor area in your apartment, or your salary. self regulating. 21:24:47 jbjohns: congratulations 21:24:57 thanks. :) 21:26:03 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-243-39.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 21:26:13 bloody hell, JavaScript engine for emacs! 21:26:19 http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/11/ejacs-javascript-interpreter-for-emacs.html 21:26:36 now i know what i'm doing with the rest of my day :-P 21:26:49 now one just needs an emacs-clone running in javascript 21:26:57 Hun: Conkeror 21:26:58 inside emacs? 21:27:06 >_> 21:27:41 js in elisp 21:27:53 that shouldn't be so hard. In fact I could probably do in 20 minutes. :) 21:27:56 *gigamonk`* wonders if it's possible to do typographic text layout in a XULRunner app. 21:27:59 I mean emacs clone in js 21:28:27 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 21:28:34 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:20 When i was playing with "Top Down Operator Precedence" i wrote a JS compiler in CL ala Crockford 21:29:34 *gigamonk`* has been working on just such a thing recently. 21:29:52 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey 21:30:08 Well, I would plan to cheat. Dan Ingals wrote "Lively kernel" at Sun, which is a Smalltalk implementation in JS, and I know of an emacs package in smalltalk. :) 21:30:10 I knew it! 21:30:20 gigamonkey: load of fun non? 21:30:59 Yup. Actually the real point of my experiment, which is not yet complete, is to test his claim that it'd be easy to use TDOP to add a macro facility to a Javascripty language. 21:31:32 jbjohns: uh, I don't think Lively Kernel is Smalltalk. It's a Smalltalk like environment using Javascript as the language. 21:31:40 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@216.27.62.2] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.82.1-rdmsoft [XULRunner 1.9b5/2008043010]"] 21:31:48 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [] 21:31:53 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 21:32:02 is it? Maybe it's morphic then? 21:32:13 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Client Quit] 21:32:21 In that case, I'll need to ammend my initial projection a bit. :) 21:32:37 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 21:32:52 dnolen [n=dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:32:57 gigamonkey: You and i are of like minds :) 21:33:05 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:33:22 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-50-169.man.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:17 jbjohns, Lively kernel was coolish. 21:35:20 gigamonkey: I found in my experiments that once you expose the ability to add syntax you basically get the benefits of macros... but without a regular syntax it runs the risk of getting scary. 21:36:26 gigamonkey: however, i think something like TDOP done right in a language with excellent meta-facilities and you could convince me :) 21:37:39 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 21:38:04 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 21:38:07 ok, night all. 21:38:10 I think the trick is you need two things which are unified in Lisp: you need a way to express the destructuring grammar (which TDOP gives you at least a hand with) and then you need the target language, which I'm thinking is going to be some kind of CodeDOM. 21:38:23 And thanks for the insigt about SBCL being doable on windows. Now I have a new toy. :) 21:38:36 for my 3 hour daily train trip 21:38:59 What's this about SBCL on windows? 21:39:08 Another happy customer. ;-) 21:39:15 jbjohns: you could take clozure cl with you, too. 21:39:16 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:20 Ah. Wish it worked properly for me. :-/ 21:39:28 oh nothing, just this outsider didn't know SBCL+Slime was a reality on windows yet 21:39:44 since it's always that scary yellow color on the web site. :) 21:39:55 (One of these days, the amount of irony near me will build up to lethal levels.) 21:40:29 -!- esden [n=esden@lapradig77.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:40:36 -!- jbjohns [n=chatzill@52-45.3-213.fix.bluewin.ch] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.84 [Firefox 3.0.4/2008102920]"] 21:42:03 i run sbcl on Windows and it's sweet 21:42:05 I think I'm about to be annoyed. 21:42:38 Hrm... Okay, not in portage. I'm less annoyed than I could have been. 21:43:08 fusss: It's sweet when it works. I currently need a --dynamic-space-size of about 60 in order for it to even start, on a previously-working install. 21:43:25 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9f6c36b4a0b64c07] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:43:31 are you hacking on win32 sbcl? 21:43:38 nyef: when are you going to fix it? =D 21:44:09 hefner: I tried one approach yesterday, but it didn't work. 21:44:11 esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:44:12 fusss: Rarely. 21:44:15 gigamonkey: I'm confused about why you mention me in the paste title. then again, I confuse real easy. 21:44:33 nyef: oh, right. I'm surprised that didn't work. 21:44:47 I may have misremembered. But I think it was you you gave me a hard time about posting too many snippets a week or so ago. 21:45:30 -!- esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:45:30 oh. I think the last time I said anything about C@W it was something like "alright already, we're buying the book". 21:45:32 what do you mean dynamic space size of 60? 60 pages? megabytes? 21:45:43 esden [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp 21:46:00 hefner: Turns out, windows has a special memory mapping attribute for stuff loaded from an "image". It apparently is bounds-checked for the information in the section table, and doesn't allow for creating MEM_RESERVE regions. 21:46:02 Which I took as, alright already. Stop spamming the channel with off topic pastes. 21:46:14 fusss: Megs. Which is twice the size of the core file. 21:46:15 Which is totally fair. But sometimes I can't resist. 21:47:18 nyef: are you mapping the file as executable (DLL code?) or for RW? 21:47:20 So now I have this software which is a band-aid over one of the two or three remaining hardware issues I have with my linux box that won't be solved with a new kernel. And it's completely undocumented. 21:47:44 don't throw confusion hexes at gigamonkey. We need him unconfocuzed so he writes books ;) 21:48:04 fusss: I tried to add a segment into sbcl.exe that would set up the dynamic space mapping before any DLLs could claim the memory space. 21:48:48 (emacs hexl-mode is dead useful for this kind of thing, btw.) 21:49:35 does sbcl load to fixed loctions or something? 21:49:36 fusss: The core file itself is not directly mapped, because the semantics of MapViewOfFile() are horrifically incompatible with what SBCL needs. 21:49:52 Yeah, the heap isn't completely relocatable, and needs to be contiguous space. 21:49:56 -!- Russel-Athletic [n=Russel@d174.stw.stud.uni-saarland.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:23 Or, rather, three separate contiguous spaces, one or two of which are not relocatable because their addresses are assumed to be constant by a lot of the compiler and runtime. 21:51:22 two of the spaces are tiny and could be copied on top of a char static_memory[100000] or so in the runtime, though.. 21:51:30 boy, so you're ending up preallocating a huge chunk of memory, else you're forced to write your own page table algorithms (redirecting pointers on faults, etc.) ouch. 21:51:49 .. 21:52:21 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:28 foom: Yeah, I was thinking about that. We could easily manage that much, at least. Just have to set 'em up as bss segments or something. 21:53:00 I -think- we can even tweak their write bits as needed. 21:53:19 I think if you literally put some arrays as the first file linked into the executable it'll end up at a predictable address every time you link 21:53:20 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:29 then it's pseudo-portable as well. :) 21:53:41 I'd rather have reliable than pseudo-portable. 21:54:03 if you're going that route, why not put a char boom[1024*1024*512] in there and lock everything down =p 21:54:32 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 21:55:23 nyef: are you able to get the results you want with a simple C test app? it might be easier to demo stuff in a skeleton first then move to sbcl (stating the obvious here) 21:56:42 fusss: Oh, didn't bother with that. I looked at what I had lying around, and had a little something in Lisp to do a VirtualQuery() call and dump the results, so I just made a backup of my SBCL executable and broke out emacs hexl-mode to tweak the section table... 21:57:00 dirty :-P 21:57:02 Small wrapper script, and all I had to do was sbcl-new.exe --dynamic-space-size 60 --load my-test-script.lisp 21:57:04 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:57:39 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:58 do you think the sbcl-internals manual is accurate enough for newbs to start from? 21:58:03 I figure, if it works, I can add a quick little thing to the build process to open the executable as an (unsigned-byte 8) stream and fix up the section table as needed. 21:58:32 It's probably accurate as far as it goes, but it's almost certainly incomplete. 21:58:40 that reminds me, why don't you guys disable the obnoxious "kitten of death" message, or at least move it into lisp where you can disable it without a hex editor (or a recompile, which is more work) 21:58:49 alright 21:59:06 maybe we should start a pledge drive 21:59:22 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:26 methinks too 21:59:28 "for $20,000 we will remove the kitten of death message" "for $40,000, we'll keep it" 21:59:51 mwaha 22:00:06 Heh. How about making it go away with whatever option it was for suppressing the usual startup banner? 22:00:32 fancy that! 22:00:43 i'm in ur repl, touchin ur closures 22:02:35 fusss: nah, it'd *have* to be "mappin ur cars" ;) 22:03:25 fusss: you mean ? 22:03:46 HAHA! 22:04:02 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 22:04:03 jesus christ, that guy looks like a serial killer 22:05:02 and john mccarthy looks like colonel sanders 22:05:13 ehh, i'd be careful with that, and even more if you are serious about it... :) 22:05:37 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:05:37 :) 22:05:48 hefner: your grammar is ambiguous :) 22:05:59 colonel sanders looks like a serial killer if you're a chicken. 22:07:28 I've always fantasized that he really is, and that he carried out all manner of unspeakable perversions in his heyday 22:08:06 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 22:08:43 Hey! I don't think Krystof is past his heyday yet. 22:08:43 like being a "respected WWII veteran" depends on which side you were on :-P 22:08:53 gigamonkey: hah! 22:10:45 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 22:11:24 kami-` [n=user@p4FD38DB4.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:15:10 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:15:38 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:32 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.159.69] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:18:06 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:11 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.212.107] has joined #lisp 22:18:12 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Nick collision] 22:18:14 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:26 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:18:29 kib2_ [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 22:20:56 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:23:33 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 22:23:40 Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.0.58.101] has joined #lisp 22:27:37 nyef: are you using mingw/msvc or cygwin? 22:28:12 to compile sbcl that is 22:28:25 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD38E5B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:29:17 -!- jlilly [n=jlilly@rrcs-70-63-243-10.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [] 22:29:48 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:30:02 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 22:30:02 To get superclasses, I need to use the MOP? 22:30:40 mogunus: you mean to find out the super classes of a class? 22:30:47 gigamonkey: yes 22:30:59 Also, to return the slots of an object. 22:31:48 mogunus: you'll need the mop for that yeah. 22:31:48 I think that is correct. 22:32:38 Okay. I'll do that then. It's the sort of thing that I don't want to use without making sure I really need it :-\ 22:32:44 -!- mega1 [n=mega@3e44a843.adsl.enternet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:32:59 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-fb5b680b3cc79fe1] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 22:33:03 -!- pjb [n=t@free.informatimago.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:33:22 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:33:39 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 22:34:53 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-e3db7a715c75fc48] has joined #lisp 22:35:52 mogunus: What is your use case? Maybe there's another option. 22:36:08 mogunus: One alternative is to write your own DEFCLASS wrapper macro, and record the information you need. 22:36:58 chandler: use case is implementing "memory organization packages," as in roger schank's case-based reasoning research 22:37:54 I need to be able to traverse the class hierarchy and obtain lists of slots from the objects under consideration 22:38:05 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.212.107] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:38:29 mogunus: knowing nothing more about it than what you just said, chandler's suggestion might be appropriate here. 22:38:32 mogunus: chandler's approach has some merit. 22:38:42 *gigamonkey* wins! 22:39:15 Ah, the other MOP. I don't think I've ever heard of anyone tying that directly into the object system. It actually sounds a bit scary to be honest :-) 22:39:35 It seems like it would buy me a lot over there implementations 22:39:54 Which used hash tables and trees to keep track of stuff that the object system seems to keep track of just fine. 22:39:54 But when I was working with this, I had tens of thousands of cases, and was just using structures and lists for representation. 22:40:17 mogunus: if you know what the slots are at compile-time, you can record that information. somewhere. However, i think the logical place to record that is in the class itself, and since it's already there i'd use it. 22:40:46 mogunus: you might take a look at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-parsing-binary-files.html for an example of this kind of thing. 22:40:50 drewc: so keep a list of the slots of a class in the class itself? 22:41:09 Also, does anyone know why that particular line of research stalled? 22:41:12 mogunus: ignore the binary parsing part and look at the define-binary-* macros. 22:41:21 -!- stragerLN` is now known as stragerLN 22:41:30 mogunus: i was being a little funny ... MOP:CLASS-SLOTS already has such a list 22:41:33 Things that are known at compile time can often be fruitfully stored on symbols' property lists. 22:41:51 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-205.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:41:55 and i would use mop for this, but i love the mop. 22:42:13 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:43:00 The advantage of using your own defining macro is if there are things you want to record about these classes that isn't readily available from the mop, no worries, you just record it yourself. 22:43:08 This may sound hair-brained; but. . . . is there some way to intercept if a symbol-function is replaced? Either through defun or (setf (symbol-function (and acknowledging that reference comparison won't cut it as compile can replace that) 22:43:13 Hmm.. Okay. 22:43:14 i used to to the macro thing, until i realized i was kiczales-spunning half of AMOP. 22:43:27 I'll dig through what I need to do, and see if the mop takes care of all of it. 22:43:45 *gigamonkey* should try rewriting the binary parsing chapter to use the MOP. 22:43:53 Overloading the acronym "mop," btw, is *horrible* 22:44:06 gigamonkey: What kind of information are you thinking about? 22:44:13 Makes me want to kick myself 22:44:48 drewc: dunno. Stuff more tied to the domain of "memory organization packages" and less to the implementation of classes, methods, and generic functions. 22:45:26 I also think there was an issue with my binary parsing stuff where I needed to know the "binary superclasses" at macro expand time and couldn't count on the classes being defined. 22:45:30 -!- geekux [n=geekux@217.5.184.10] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:46:40 Like, in order to expand (define-binary-class bar (foo) ...) I need information about FOO whose define-binary-class was just expanded but whose class may not yet actually be defined. 22:47:03 I could be misremembering. I'm pretty sure I was also just avoiding the MOP because I didn't want to introduce it. 22:47:12 drewc: Right. Obviously this approach will only take you so far. But if you just want some additional meta-information and aren't trying to define your own object system, it can be a lot easier to think about. 22:47:44 but that is an accident of the approach .. if you were using DEFCLASS and then declaring methods in the mop, you might not have needed that information when you though you did. 22:48:00 mogunus: Perhaps you should follow the rest of the CBR crowd into Java-land so it's not overloaded anymore :-) 22:48:01 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:48:10 gigamonkey: there is that .. no need for MOP in an introductory text! :) 22:48:16 chandler: ...ew 22:48:21 :-P 22:48:22 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:48:30 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 22:48:57 chandler: Agreed, the MOP introduces a lot of concepts that are not quite related to the problem domain. 22:48:59 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:49:49 however once one is comfortable with those concepts, designing your abstractions on top of CLOS is an excellent choice IMO. 22:50:52 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:51:09 mogunus: My thoughts exactly, but it hasn't stopped people from going in that direction rapidly. 22:51:36 chandler: it seems like, especially for something like CBR, lisp would be ideal. 22:51:55 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 22:52:14 I might be an extremist though .. my finished applications end up being little more than DEFCLASS forms 22:53:50 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 22:54:06 and one has to be extremely careful if one needs composable meta-classes, let alone meta-meta classes ad inf. 22:55:19 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:55:21 mogunus: Yes, this is how I got into CL in the first place. 22:56:12 rtra_ [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 22:57:40 chandler: really? interesting... 22:58:00 -!- Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.0.58.101] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:58:08 drewc: do you have an example of that? 22:58:27 I'm trying to get a clos-based CBR system up and running to play with, because I want to experiment with automatically generating cases from natural language. 22:58:30 Draggor: of what exactly? 22:59:11 -!- ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-138-17-255.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:59:26 I'm an undergrad, though, so it's not like I have experience with anything other than stochastic NLP at this point. 23:00:06 ivanst_ [i=ivans@78-1-160-59.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 23:01:47 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:01:48 drewc: An example of a program that's nothing more than defclass forms. It seems like I'm at the opposite, I define some things, then I don't touch it after that. 23:02:24 Draggor: sure, let me post some example code. 23:02:26 drewc: is ucw_dev @ common-lisp.net darcs still the correct place to start? 23:03:18 mogunus: It occurs to me that a CLOS/MOP-based CBR system could have some interesting uses for automatic refactoring for abstraction of patterns or automated defect detection. 23:03:43 curtosis: nope. http://common-lisp.net/projects/ucw/repos/ucw-core/ is the right place. The demo is the only docs (though i have an emacs window open that is starting to look like a manual) 23:03:43 chandler: this is what I am hoping for 23:03:52 drewc: thanks! 23:04:13 excellent, thanks 23:04:36 the demo you speak of is in that checkout? 23:04:45 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483EE0F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:04:48 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 23:05:06 mogunus: This could be especially applicable to UML or SysML models, if you grounded the metamodel in CLOS. 23:05:37 drdo [n=psykon@77.54.111.167] has joined #lisp 23:06:35 curtosis: it is 23:06:47 super! 23:06:51 chandler: interesting. I know nothing about UML... I will see what I can do, once I get a barebones reasoner working. 23:06:56 fusss: I used to just cross-compile from a linux mingw, but after a while I moved to a cygwin environment (still with a mingw compiler installed, as the cygwin runtime environment is just not a good match for sbcl). 23:07:01 mogunus: What is the natural language input? Requirements? 23:07:06 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:07:19 chandler: stories. fairy tales, to be precise. 23:07:30 approx 3 million words worth 23:08:00 lisppaste: url? 23:08:00 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 23:08:39 I've previously worked on automatic binary relation extraction and event extraction, with stochastic methods. 23:09:23 I figure it would be hilarious to try and get the output of those modules, on a smallish corpus of stories, into a more conceptually sophisticated system. 23:09:50 -!- NuMaStresa [i=1000@unaffiliated/numastresa] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:11:14 mogunus: You know about ISAAC, right? 23:12:07 -!- rtra_ is now known as rtra 23:12:07 The story understander? Yeah 23:12:44 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdsl-92-252-31-161.dip.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:12:52 drewc pasted "defclase/define-description (which is defclass) " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70680 23:13:08 er .. defclass/* 23:13:40 Draggor: a significant percentage of my code consists or declarations such as in that paste 23:13:48 consists of. 23:14:06 OK :-) 23:14:06 *drewc* is losing it. 23:14:12 chandler: no, I seem to be thinking of IPP. what was it? 23:14:28 maskd [i=maskd@unaffiliated/maskd] has joined #lisp 23:15:01 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:15:27 The moorman thesis? 23:17:00 mogunus: ISAAC was a story understanderer (heh, there's gotta be a better term for that) for science fiction short stories. 23:17:05 I am digging for a reference now. 23:17:11 That name sounds right... 23:17:16 drewc: That's really cool. A bit over my head, but I get the base idea 23:17:28 Odin-MAC_ [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:17:53 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:18:01 -!- curtosis [n=cmcurtis@208.176.107.226.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [] 23:18:13 Draggor: the essence is 'to display an object one iterates through its 'attributes' and displays them' 23:19:09 and 'objects can have different attributes in different contexts, attributes can have different properties in different contexts, and the interaction between all that describes your application' 23:19:09 -!- milanj [n=milan@93.86.115.230] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:19:36 mogunus: Yes, that is it. 23:19:55 "Integrated Story Analysis And Creativity" 23:20:15 *mogunus* nods 23:20:18 interesting, thanks 23:20:54 I love these academic backronyms. My advisor came up with ASPARC for our agent-communication platform, which he thought was hilarious because it was running on a SPARC. 23:21:23 *mogunus* winces 23:21:28 Someday, I hope to be an academic. 23:22:46 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless06.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:22:52 -!- kib2_ [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:23:23 Someday, I hope to hope to be an academic. 23:23:57 drewc: I can now see the next level for my coding skill, heh 23:26:15 *hefner* hopes to hope, someday. 23:26:41 hefner: Audacious! 23:26:53 I'll stick to xmms, thanks. 23:27:20 OK, I didn't get that one. 23:27:31 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:27:38 heh 23:27:57 Google is coming up with a rather useless web site at http://audacious-media-player.org/ 23:28:18 "Audacious is a fork of Beep Media Player 0.9.7.1, which is a fork of XMMS." 23:28:30 you want Audacity? 23:29:03 never mind, chat when on the phone :-S 23:30:15 I'm beginning to suspect that I want an iTunes clone, or some other media management system that can cope with only-occasionally-present volumes... 23:30:26 But that's a project for another year. 23:31:19 I think my joke Obambed. 23:32:03 nyef: i have 8 year old win32 api code that loads executable segments from binary data 23:32:04 Aren't the popular audio players supposed to be iTunes clones these days? I've seen Rhythmbox and Banshee shipped by default on various distributions, and that's what they both looked like to me. 23:33:10 basically 90s technology about storing code in ADO databases, mostly to give the illusion of "active data" (DDE + OLE stuff) 23:33:40 will reread that and see if i can relearn something from it. but gotta go home first. 23:33:41 cheers! 23:33:44 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.18/2008102918]"] 23:37:37 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A26A80.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:37:40 So, I have printed copies of Keene, and AMOP, right? 23:37:54 AMOP never fails to amaze with how nicely it is typeset, bound, a printed. 23:38:16 keene is intensely cheap-feeling in these respects. 23:38:53 It always makes me a bit sad. Wish the CLOS book was also published very nicely. 23:41:10 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:42:31 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@11.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:43:35 http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/screenshot/svg-3.png <- gratuitious listener screenshot 23:44:16 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:44:22 hefner: Cool! Makes me want to play SMB3 again. 23:45:45 hefner: great. how soon it will be available in mcclim? 23:47:27 stassats`: never! 23:47:57 sigh 23:50:33 hi 23:51:10 i'm learning lisp and working through the code @ practical common lisp, but i seem to have a problem with the code from the book 23:51:55 bakkdoor: Paste the code using http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp, and also include the error message 23:52:44 and /or the page number 23:54:27 bakkdoor pasted "unit test @ chapter 9 [practical common lisp]" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70686 23:55:35 i pretty much copied that code...it worked before using combine-results 23:55:56 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:56:34 problem is in with-gensyms, clisp has its own with-gensyms macro 23:56:44 oh, so its different? 23:56:47 copy with-gensyms from 8 chapter 23:57:21 oh so he uses that one? i thought since clisp has one already, its the same as the one he defined 23:57:28 whats the difference? 23:58:10 bakkdoor: You're from Osnabrueck, right? 23:58:30 bakkdoor: http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes.html#with-gensyms 23:58:31 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:58:49 tcr: yes i am, why?