00:00:25 schme_: at least use a cursor instead of loading everything in a single response (: 00:01:00 pkhuong: I'm sorry, you've lost me there. 00:01:30 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:02:06 Okay, I'm gone for the evening. I'll be back tomorrow. 00:02:09 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-173-48-82-212.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["G'night all."] 00:02:22 I guess it's back to the pgsql 00:03:50 schme_: if you exhaust the heap with a query, it seems to me the obvious fix is to load the response in incrementally. 00:04:18 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:04:23 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:04:37 pkhuong: I have no idea how to do that. Where would I look for information on that? 00:05:36 dunno. sqlite can do it. I'd try the docs for the interface library you're using. 00:06:00 Ya.. clsql has nothing on it :) 00:07:04 Twey_ [n=Twey@unaffiliated/twey] has joined #lisp 00:07:12 -!- Twey [n=Twey@unaffiliated/twey] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:07:16 -!- Twey_ is now known as Twey 00:12:11 ok. Seems LIKE is works for me. 00:13:18 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 00:13:27 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:18:33 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-048-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:24 pjb- [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 00:21:16 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-053-207.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:24:12 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:13 silas428 [n=ryanpayt@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:56 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-34-186.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:54 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.215.213] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:31:53 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:32:38 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 00:33:04 michaelw: that's my issue with cl-graph too (not allowing me to fit a graph on top of my existing objects) 00:34:41 or even multiple graphs upon the same objects - every generic function should take an explicit graph argument 00:36:02 -!- pjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:36:57 schme_: your table / text descender thing is definitely a bug (and an unexpected one!). Which text output path are you using (basic clx, mcclim-freetype, mcclim-truetype)? 00:37:49 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 00:38:28 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 00:39:07 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:39:29 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:42:39 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 00:45:26 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:47:15 -!- silas428 [n=ryanpayt@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:50:12 -!- bearlanding [n=svspire@w-albuq-9-12.7cities.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:54:42 endusr [n=endusr@unaffiliated/endusr] has joined #lisp 00:56:00 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:20 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:59:09 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAC62E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:59:16 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@70.107.142.24] has quit [] 01:00:17 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:00:34 hefner: that's an interesting idea. the only reason I have an explicit node class is because the nodes have "names". I suppose i could maintain those elsewhere and just add objects to the graphs. 01:03:23 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 01:03:37 prxq__ [n=mommer@Ybd63.y.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:06:09 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 01:06:13 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 01:06:50 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:07:09 slyrus_: actually, I was looking at the design for a graph library when I (re)started work on cl-dot 01:07:53 I made all the functions dependent on a graph argument some time ago already 01:08:48 -!- prxq_ [n=mommer@X88c8.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:10:09 dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 01:11:12 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 01:11:20 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 01:16:20 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:18:07 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:18:47 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:19:03 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 01:20:53 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:21:07 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 01:21:31 ATM it uses node instances to construct a graph, but only under the hood; users only talk in their own objects 01:24:17 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:27:24 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 01:31:54 my graph interface provided two pairs of functions for querying neighbors, one pair with explicit edges and the other returning neighbors directly, implemented circularly 01:32:15 great fun if you forget to implement that for you graph and it blows your stack out. I wonder what a good way of grounding circularly defined protocols like that might be. 01:32:38 do you have something to peek at? 01:32:49 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 01:33:12 sorry, no. it's part of a certain morass of code which will probably never get open sourced. 01:35:07 hefner: a mixin to hint at which part of the protocol is explicitly defined? 01:35:25 that violates the rule that it shouldn't impose on the types of your objects 01:35:59 a mixin on the graph, I think 01:36:28 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 01:36:28 right, on the graph would work. 01:36:39 ah, right. 01:37:17 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:37:30 or maybe mixins to specify which should be defaulted is more defensive. 01:37:32 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:38:26 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:38:46 I wonder if you could make a case for not imposing on the type of the graph, either. 01:39:05 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 01:39:14 it's certain weaker than that for the nodes or edges. 01:41:27 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A276E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 01:41:37 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:42:14 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A6FA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:42:43 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:43:17 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:53:44 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:35 hefner 01:56:01 : which "morass of code", btw? 01:59:25 prxq_ [n=mommer@Ze652.z.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 02:00:23 not a familiar one 02:07:21 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:08:25 -!- prxq__ [n=mommer@Ybd63.y.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:13:21 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:14:04 rtra_ [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 02:14:45 schme: I'm not sure how to reproduce your text/table bug, but I'd be willing to look in it. My tests seem to work. 02:15:29 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:50 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 02:18:50 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0AD0.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:19:31 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:23:08 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:37 nuntius [n=nuntius@c-71-232-15-233.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:28:07 Q: what's the best way to condition method parameter specializers? e.g. clean up (defmethod x (#+clisp x #-clisp (x fixnum)) ...) 02:30:45 nuntius: don't do that, fixnum isn't (necessarily) a class. 02:31:07 I know. 02:31:11 and why do you need to do that at all? 02:31:12 Fixing someone else's code. 02:31:33 If the code works without the specialization, I'd just take it out. 02:31:46 I would like to keep the type info for lisps that can optimize on it; drop the specialization for those that can't. 02:32:03 Use type declarations, then. 02:32:03 use declarations for that. 02:32:51 murphy- [n=murphy@85.139.196.130] has joined #lisp 02:32:58 k. thanks. 02:33:08 -!- rtra_ is now known as rtra 02:34:01 Is there any known issue with compiling Hunchentoot in SBCL 1.0.19 in OSX/PPC? 02:35:30 Hmmm, it seems like maybe a warning got turned into an error somewhere (maybe in ASDF). 02:36:03 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [] 02:38:31 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 02:39:22 asdf enjoys doing that occasionally 02:47:28 -!- DanielRM [n=danielrm@cpc1-grim8-0-0-cust625.nott.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:49:22 Hmmm. SBCL is complaining about the number of arguments being passed to a method. It looks right to me but in the SLIME debugger stack it shows one of the arguments as #. Is that likely to be related? 02:49:23 harabel [n=harabel@c-68-39-236-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:32 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@c-98-234-70-67.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:51:46 Bah. Never mind. I think it may be something else. 02:51:52 # generally means it was optimized out 02:53:41 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 02:55:26 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 02:58:22 Ah. It helps when you update other people's librarys, if you remember to reapply your local patches. 03:00:42 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@5.pool85-49-163.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 03:00:48 er, libraries. 03:02:12 sirbalmung [n=Steven@c-24-7-162-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:02:52 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@5.pool85-49-163.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:03:19 i cant figure out how to define a function that takes a function as a parameter, is there anything you need to add to the defun line in order to do this? thanks for any help 03:03:21 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:04:05 sirbalmung: (defun f (fun) (funcall fun)) 03:04:30 alright thank you ill go try that out 03:05:17 -!- doxtor [i=phytovor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:07:00 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:08:47 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 03:11:09 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:18:33 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:21:16 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:21:30 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-152.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 03:23:32 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-152.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 03:23:50 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:29:23 -!- elurin [n=user@88.254.98.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:31:17 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-29-77.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:34:01 dialtone [n=dialtone@c-98-234-70-67.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:35:27 michaelw, hefner: yes, after looking at it some more, I don't see why there needs to be an explicit node class in epigraph. thanks. 03:37:00 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 03:38:47 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:54:52 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 03:56:10 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 03:56:24 Twey_ [n=Twey@unaffiliated/twey] has joined #lisp 04:01:00 -!- sirbalmung [n=Steven@c-24-7-162-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:08:19 -!- Twey [n=Twey@unaffiliated/twey] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 04:08:20 -!- Twey_ is now known as Twey 04:10:07 benny [n=benny@i577A0AD0.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:12:33 phao [n=phao@189.13.212.116] has joined #lisp 04:12:42 -!- phao [n=phao@189.13.212.116] has left #lisp 04:14:58 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 04:19:24 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:20:21 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:22:39 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:24:37 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 04:26:00 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@207-237-217-78.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 04:32:22 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:32:56 Good morning. 04:35:13 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 04:36:35 Morning beach. 04:45:00 -!- endusr [n=endusr@unaffiliated/endusr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:52:53 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-60-29-77.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:53:09 Discordian [n=clive@chills.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 04:54:33 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-229-91-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:08 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:57:05 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:58:22 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 04:59:22 *tic* shakes his head at the current state of the software industry. 05:01:03 morning beach 05:01:58 I only just realised how detecting deadlocks = GC. 05:02:37 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 05:02:38 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@207-237-217-78.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:02:50 pkhuong, garbage collection? 05:03:34 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:06:28 tic: You're looking for threads that are waiting but can't be woken up by some live thread. 05:06:53 pkhuong, yeah, but how would you detect that? 05:07:20 pkhuong, check if live threads are likely to execute the code to set a condition? 05:07:46 -!- cbrannon [n=user@ip68-12-115-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:07:50 yay. epigraph now no longer has an explicit node class so any object can be an node in a graph. 05:10:11 tic: keep track of which threads are waiting on each lock, and all the locks threads own. Any thread waiting on a lock that is owned by a live thread (or transitively) might be live. Any deadlocked thread will eventually not be reachable by any live thread. If you only have mutexes, things are simpler; with reader/writer locks, we're pretty much back to an arbitrary graph. 05:14:24 pkhuong, ah, of course! thanks for the explanation. 05:14:32 Yeah, many problems can be reduced to other problems, it seems. 05:14:48 tic: GC is pretty well studied. 05:15:06 -!- harabel [n=harabel@c-68-39-236-251.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [] 05:15:22 slyrus_: I think that's a really nice and simple example of multiple dispatch being really useful. 05:15:26 pkhuong, and yet most GC implementations still suck. 05:15:36 pkhuong: how so? 05:16:30 slyrus_: you can dispatch on both the graph object and the node to, e.g., determine adjacencies. 05:16:44 sirbalmung1 [n=Steven@c-24-7-162-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:16:45 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0AD0.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:17:34 pkhuong: I guess so, but the point of this was that everything goes through the graph no, so we don't need an explicit node class. 05:17:55 if you wanted to be able to treat node objects differently according to context, you'd have to basically use a visitor. 05:18:11 but, yeah, I agree, once you start thinking in terms of multiple dispatch, it's hard to imagine having lived in a world where you don't have multiple dispatch 05:18:21 Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@207-237-217-78.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 05:18:40 I have l=(1 2) and a=(1 2), when i try to check if they are equal using (eq l a) its nil, why is this, do i need another method for comparing lists? Thank you for any help 05:19:41 at some point I should release my SMILES parser so folks can see a real-world-ish example of where epigraph is highly useful :) 05:19:53 slyrus_: bah, the point is more that it's a nice example that doesn't need tons of context to understand and is clearly useful. 05:20:00 heh 05:20:04 bearlanding [n=svspire@w-albuq-9-12.7cities.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:25 sirbalmung1: lisp has many comparison operators. Try equal 05:20:30 sirbalmung1: EQ in this situation is basically doing an identity test on your references - you need equal - look at the spec for the distinctions between equal, eql and eq 05:20:51 pkhuong: OTOH, real world examples are nice if they happen to be the kind of examples one is interested in :) 05:21:00 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:21:28 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D4D3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:41 segv [n=mb@p4FC1E5F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:58 i don't imagine there are any chemists lurking here, however... 05:22:16 slyrus_: it (graphs) actually is real world around here. 05:22:50 thanks a lot guys 05:23:19 pkhuong: but presumably you're modeling _something_ with the graphs, no? 05:24:20 slyrus_: well, it doesn't always matter *what* is being modeled for our code. 05:25:04 right, my point being that ultimately someone who cares about your code probably has an interest in *what* is being modeled though 05:26:38 slyrus_: ``network flows'' (etc) is just another way of saying nearly anything if you squint just so ;) 05:28:07 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:28:15 benny [n=benny@i577A0733.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:28:44 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:35:58 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has joined #lisp 05:36:31 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@softbank221086162038.bbtec.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:36:35 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:36:39 bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 05:39:45 *tic* wonders if he'd understand his assignment on Network Flow better today. 05:43:22 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 05:47:23 Good grief. cl-typesetting conses over 12M to render an 8k input file into a 60k output file. 05:47:35 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-7ec0a2307b6a715b] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:47:59 gigamonkey: meh, why is that a problem? 05:48:17 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-5745f5abf7e7b62d] has joined #lisp 05:48:32 Well, the whole thing is pretty slow. It also seems to do everything twice. 05:48:40 The consing per se is not a problem. 05:56:16 -!- mib_opwy65m9 [i=470aa6e2@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-63a410b90e968756] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 05:57:24 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 06:01:27 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 06:06:07 yeoh [n=chatzill@109.165.48.60.kmr03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 06:06:37 -!- yeoh [n=chatzill@109.165.48.60.kmr03-home.tm.net.my] has quit [Client Quit] 06:07:01 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:07:19 -!- bearlanding [n=svspire@w-albuq-9-12.7cities.net] has quit [] 06:07:42 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 06:09:01 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 06:09:34 g'day 06:11:18 gigamonkey: ouch 06:12:38 -!- murphy- [n=murphy@85.139.196.130] has quit ["leaving"] 06:14:01 -!- travisjeffery 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#lisp 10:10:56 -!- kib2_ [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:13:50 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:18:16 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.95.221] has joined #lisp 10:28:12 What is the keyword to tell about a function? It is not DOCUMENTATION. 10:28:36 huh? 10:28:55 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:57 Like, it tells the function's inputs, their types (if any) 10:29:01 the doc string 10:29:30 Quadrescence: the sentence you wrote makes no sense. 10:29:45 (documentation 'car 'function) 10:29:45 'keyword to tell about a function' <-- what do you mean? 10:30:02 sykopomp: Maybe function to tell about a function. 10:30:22 Quadrescence: still making no sense. Tell what? 10:30:42 The function's possible inputs, their types (if any), its doc string. 10:30:52 functions have no documentation associated with them anyway, only symbols do 10:31:06 Maybe I am saying it incorrectly then. 10:31:47 Quadrescence: are you using slime? 10:31:52 sykopomp: Yes. 10:31:55 -!- ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-130-125.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:32:02 Quadrescence: do M-. 10:32:06 on the function name 10:32:25 There's a way to do it in the REPL. :( 10:32:47 (describe 'foo) 10:33:01 tic: Yes, yes yes, thank you. 10:33:07 oh. You wanted describe. 10:33:09 *sykopomp* mutters 10:33:15 *sykopomp* crawls back in his hole. 10:33:18 -!- bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:37:41 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:46 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbb71a.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 10:43:03 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086115.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 10:43:04 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has quit [] 10:43:24 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 10:44:00 -!- O_4__ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-98-175.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 10:55:40 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:00:54 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:01:31 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 11:05:03 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:08:24 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:11:09 clisp's directory function is so perfect and well documented when compared to sbcl's... The ansi standard does not define any key argument for the directory function, so every implementation is free to add whatever is usefull yet remaining ansi compliant but sbcl guys did not care about it, it's not even documented... 11:13:10 milanj [n=milan@77.46.249.75] has joined #lisp 11:13:34 then use clisp? 11:13:49 no, editing sbcl's source 11:13:51 maybe CL-FAD can be of interest? 11:13:56 it's a pan in the ass though 11:14:19 ouch 11:14:25 tic: packages from here and there are not the right thing to do for me. This is a _basic_ functionality the implementation should have 11:14:46 s/pan/pain 11:15:00 tc-rucho: there already are a couple libraries that offer exactly what you're looking for. Why are you trying to fit unportable not-quite-standard functionality in? 11:15:24 pkhuong: because in my oppinion, it should be there 11:15:34 I don't want any uffi dependant stuff 11:15:41 tc-rucho, how about people trying to use your code in non-clisp and non-sbcl Lisps? 11:15:42 tc-rucho: sb-posix, then. 11:16:20 pkhuong: I've been lost in the non documented sbcl's code for a whole day now 11:16:33 but seems I forgot to check that section now 11:16:39 I've been messing in sb-impl 11:16:42 and sb-unix 11:16:52 it's hell down there 11:16:54 lol 11:17:55 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 11:18:18 hmm 11:18:35 sb-unix and sb-posix are quite the same thing, bet they're aliased packages 11:19:17 sb-unix is more complete 11:19:17 tc-rucho: right. For example, one has readdir, and the other doesn't. 11:19:30 hmm 11:22:21 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:25:39 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 11:28:45 tc-rucho: sb-unix is really "stuff that sbcl needs to run" and is internals-ish whereas sb-posix is the shiny new thing 11:29:20 If you need to access something in posix, the Right Thing would be to add it to sb-posix, in the style of sb-posix... 11:35:23 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:37:27 dima13 [n=dima@paduch.telenet.ru] has joined #lisp 11:37:50 is it ok to shuffle *common-static-symbols* or any hacks wanting a fixed order ? 11:38:45 -!- dima13 [n=dima@paduch.telenet.ru] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 11:39:51 ltbarcly [n=jvanwink@nc-76-0-128-24.dhcp.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 11:47:37 -!- bertskert [n=Marcus@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:48:02 -!- kami-` is now known as kami 11:48:06 -!- kami is now known as kami- 11:48:16 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:49:47 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086115.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:50:28 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086115.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 11:51:19 dima` [n=user@paduch.telenet.ru] has joined #lisp 11:56:00 -!- dima` [n=user@paduch.telenet.ru] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:58:25 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.241.141] has joined #lisp 11:59:19 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:04:24 -!- danlei` is now known as danlei 12:05:54 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086115.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:10:12 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [] 12:14:40 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 12:15:39 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 12:16:08 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:17:33 AshyIsMe [n=User@118.107.36.126] has joined #lisp 12:17:53 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 12:22:23 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.137.21] has joined #lisp 12:24:26 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:49 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:26:55 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 12:27:53 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 12:28:14 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 12:28:18 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 12:29:15 -!- ejs [n=eugen@137-155-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:33:11 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.249.75] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:36:48 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a69-218.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:38:30 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-73-194.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:38:49 -!- crod [n=cmell@cad43e-216.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:39:56 hi, i am using sbcl with emacs and emacs gives me an error connection unexpectedly closed. it seems to happen when i have a huge output in the repl like 1000 of lines. is there something i can do about that? 12:41:16 krumholt: Does the *inferior-lisp* buffer tell you anything? 12:42:35 ;; Connection to Emacs lost. [ 12:42:35 ;; condition: Unable to display error condition: # is closed. 12:42:35 ;; type: SB-INT:STREAM-ENCODING-ERROR 12:44:05 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:44:13 morn 12:44:23 krumholt: Well I have no idea there :) 12:44:45 krumholt: Does the same happen when you run sbcl without the swankery and slimery? 12:45:03 schme, i'll try a second pls 12:45:32 hi 12:45:39 Hello davazp 12:46:26 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:46:49 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-93-132-132.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:06 krumholt: I've seen this kind of behaviour when there is a mismatch between SBCL's coding system and Emacs'. 12:47:07 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C6FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:47:23 it works in sbcl 12:47:36 just in emacs the connection closes 12:47:57 Oh that could be something. Coding system issues. 12:48:05 Does anyone know if I can use declarations to specify arguments in &rest were a specified type? thanks in advance 12:48:25 it seems to happen when the list is very long could that be the problem? 12:51:58 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a69-218.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:53:36 I don't know how specify this. I have take a look to cltl2, but nothing 12:53:44 krumholt: you have several things to check here. first is the slime/sbcl version correspondence (they should ideally be from the same time, give or take a week), text encoding (try forcing utf-8 everywhere), use of dedicated swank output stream or lack thereof, slime<->swank communication style (the default should be fine, though) 12:54:42 cmm, thanks i'll check that 12:55:10 the encoding thing seems the most promising, fwiw 12:56:36 davazp: something like (defun foo (bar &baz) (declare (type bar something)) ...)? 12:56:54 (type baz something) rather 12:57:08 (bar &rest baz) too early for code 12:57:55 the &rest argument is always a list 12:58:38 well, let me ask his question then :-P 12:59:04 couldn't he mix &key and &optional and declare the type of specific key arguments? 12:59:12 you could try (declare (type (cons foo (cons bar (cons baz null))) rest)) or something, but that begs a question 12:59:55 (defun foo (bar &optional &key baz) (declare (type baz something)) ..) 13:00:24 "&optional &key"? 13:00:51 cmm: did i mess up the order or is &key always optional? 13:02:05 I don't think you can do that at all (or expect any kind of well-defined semantics, anyway) 13:02:22 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-152.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:02:29 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:02:31 but I'm fuzzy on lambda lists :( 13:02:52 well, we have thank Muddle for them :-) 13:03:01 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.95.221] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:03:32 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.95.221] has joined #lisp 13:04:01 davazp: type declarations are just compiler hints for performance, and if you're after performance you can probably find a better way around variable argument functions 13:05:37 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a6a-080.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:06:50 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:07:33 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:07:35 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:09:05 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:19 josemanuel [n=josemanu@121.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 13:11:12 ahhh, now i know where gtk came from, InterViews! 13:12:23 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:13:03 vasa [n=vasa@mm-224-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 13:14:29 elurin [n=user@88.254.98.183] has joined #lisp 13:16:30 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-152.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 13:17:03 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@118.107.36.126] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:17:43 mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has joined #lisp 13:19:01 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.95.221] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:31:23 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(Connection reset by peer)] 14:24:15 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:26:10 Twey [n=Twey@unaffiliated/twey] has joined #lisp 14:26:59 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has joined #lisp 14:33:11 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-152-68.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 14:34:45 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:35:33 hmmm, Garnet seems Self-like and possibly a better flash-based Lisp GUI than other class based GUIs (like CLIM and DUIM.) but Adobe has been moving Flash away from pure ECMAscript prototype system and ActionScript 3 started to look Java-like. 14:35:43 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.12] has joined #lisp 14:36:10 there is also Amulet, the Garnet successor that is even a better GUI toolkit 14:36:29 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.129.240] has joined #lisp 14:37:27 AS3 requires type specifiers for values 14:43:48 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:48:56 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:49:41 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 14:51:51 what is a "flash-based Lisp GUI" ? 14:55:00 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:55:29 ths [n=ths@122.169.94.10] has joined #lisp 14:56:35 -!- Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:52 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:59:04 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:38 -!- prxq_ [n=mommer@Ze652.z.pppool.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:02:34 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:04:38 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.129.240] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:04:57 tc-rucho pasted "Listing dir countents with sb-posix" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70492 15:06:49 forget it, just found a way with unix-stat 15:07:37 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-221-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:49 tc-rucho: there is a portable way 15:09:39 (directory "/*") 15:09:44 fusss: if you think about osicat or cl-fad forget it, I want to do this without any external package (because I think this is one of the most basic filesystem operations and should be possible with the builtin stuff) 15:10:06 fusss: (directory ..) follows symlinks and lists the real file path 15:10:11 fusss: therefore it's useless for me 15:10:16 oh 15:10:36 wouldn't that be implementation dependant? following the symlinks that is 15:10:54 i'm on windows and works "perfectly" for me :-) 15:11:32 fusss: actually, directory follows symlink, and there is an asi function to "get the real path" (follow the pointed symlink). That pisses me off since one could get the raw listing and (mapcar #'truename (directory ..)) and have an easy way to do both things 15:11:55 alright 15:12:05 s/asi/ansi 15:12:15 does CL-FAD have what you want? 15:12:20 ... 15:12:46 (quote "if you think about osicat or cl-fad forget it, I want to do this without any external package (because I think this is one of the most basic filesystem operations and should be possible with the builtin stuff)") 15:13:04 no, osicat does have exactly what I want 15:13:06 gaah, sorry 15:13:08 but it deppends on uffi 15:13:15 I don't want any uffi stuff 15:13:21 not cause it's bad or anything 15:13:32 it's just that I don't want to deppend on any other package 15:13:41 (at least not for _this_ task) 15:14:13 clisp, on the other hand, has some nice key arguments for the directory function (still not good enough but nice try) 15:14:24 sbcl doesn't have any key arg 15:15:01 it just has the &key on the function parameters (nothing defined, maybe sbcl guys forgot to add key args?) 15:15:08 anyway, I'm back to the repl 15:18:24 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 15:19:16 fusss: by the common interpretation of the clhs, DIRECTORY is required to return truenames 15:19:33 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has quit [] 15:20:07 tc-rucho: directory has &key because it is specified to have &key, see the note at the end 15:20:10 clhs directory 15:20:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_dir.htm 15:20:10 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.95.221] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:20:15 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-229-91-139.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:20:43 having looked at the spec, I wonder what "a fresh list of pathnames corresponding to the truenames" really means, particularly "corresponding to" 15:22:44 kpreid: yes, but it's just requiring it to have &key and no args is meant to let every implementation chose their way to change it's functionality through key args since only the default functionality is defined in the standard. But I find it stupid to leave it with the &key and no args 15:23:48 kpreid: I also find pretty stupid that the directory function seems to be the only ansi defined function for directory listing available, and even though there's a specific function for converting a path to truename, directory is required to output the truenames by default 15:24:22 tc-rucho: it seems to me that the solution to the problem is to add an option to sbcl's DIRECTORY 15:24:34 it actually pisses me off. If directory just listed things without truenames, and one wanted truenames, a simple (mapcar #'truename (directory ..)) would be enough 15:24:52 kpreid: that's what I've been trying to do yesterday and today's morning 15:25:20 but it's hell down there in the non documented sbcl's sources 15:25:36 and I've been suggested to use sb-posix to do my stuff 15:25:38 that sounds like whining 15:25:55 tc-rucho: do you need implementation-independand solution? 15:25:58 I suspect that the specification writers felt that the lack of truenames would have permitted too-useless interpretations of DIRECTORY 15:26:51 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-73-194.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:26:57 stassats: ok, then what do you say about that? wouldn't be easier to have a directory function that didn't follow symlinks and use thruename to follow symlinks than to have everything following symlinks? 15:27:27 stassats: I'm not whining, I'm doing it with sb-posix, I just openly express my disagreement 15:27:44 tc-rucho: the specification is what it is. it is essentially impossible to change. 15:28:18 dkcl [n=dkcl@2.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 15:28:23 kpreid: yeah, but a :truenames key in the directory function would be hella nice 15:28:27 XD 15:28:37 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:29:10 and it would still be ansi compliant 15:29:18 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:29:46 tc-rucho: may I suggest instead of complaining about how DIRECTORY is specified, or that SBCL doesn't have the option, or that SBCL's sources are bad, asking for any help you need in adding it to sbcl? 15:30:32 kpreid: I was trying to do it by myself, but I thought that if I do that and submint a patch, it could not be accepted and it would be useless 15:30:45 so chose to try to do it with sb-posix 15:31:04 tc-rucho: I think it would be a good thing to have, at least. 15:31:23 but if I were sure I'm not gonna be told "we don't want the patch" I would go with the edited directory function right off 15:31:35 you could ask! 15:31:40 WHO? 15:31:44 sbcl-devel 15:31:44 sbcl-devel@ 15:31:58 mail list? 15:32:01 yes 15:32:09 *tc-rucho* suscribes 15:32:13 "If I were to add a keyword to CL:DIRECTORY to not follow symlinks, and therefore return non-truenames, would the patch be accepted?" 15:32:16 something like that. 15:32:23 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm89.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:32:39 ok, I'll suscribe first 15:32:40 or if you can't do that, ask to do that, it must be trivial for sbcl developers 15:34:20 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 15:34:51 bertskert1 [n=Marcus@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:35:13 yeah, but I would like to do it since I'm the one complaining about the lack of functionality. Also I wouldn't like to bother the devels so they do something that is not gonna be widely used, they have better stuff to do 15:35:33 If I can do it, I'll submint the patch, if they refuse to add it, well, fuck em 15:36:03 but at least I won't bother them if I cope with it on my own 15:36:10 besides 15:36:24 tc-rucho: I think your attitude is off-putting. you're planning for people not caring about your problem 15:36:27 it will be a nice oportunity to learn 15:36:32 which leads to people not caring :) 15:36:42 I was just going to say "how wude" 15:37:28 tc-rucho: it's fine to consider that, but don't *say it* 15:37:30 kpreid: what does off-putting exacly mean? 15:37:36 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm89.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 15:37:49 kpreid: don't say "fuck em"? 15:38:03 tc-rucho: it makes people not want to help you 15:38:19 tc-rucho: yes! don't say that until they *HAVE* failed to help you after you asked nicely. 15:38:41 I'm just saying what I think about this stuff, and that I'll try to fix what in my oppinion is not good enough without bothering the devels asking them to do it 15:38:46 most of the people, including me, are entirely unpaid and doing it as labor-of-love. don't irritate them 15:39:06 tc-rucho: yes but a little distinction: 15:39:38 I apologise if I irritated anyone, it was not my intention 15:39:45 =/ 15:39:46 your initial statements were complaints with no intent to do something about it 15:39:54 "sbcl's DIRECTORY is bad" 15:40:01 kpreid: well, it is 15:40:23 yes, but saying so by itself is just complaining 15:40:26 and you don't know what is better for sbcl developers: to do that functionality by themselves or accept your patch 15:40:34 it is not going to make anyone want to help you much 15:40:36 kpreid: but later said I would like to fix it if I were sure it's not going to be just disregarded 15:40:53 tc-rucho: yes, say that *first*, not afterward. that's my point. 15:41:11 stassats: bet if I submint a patch, and it's not good enough for them, at least it will be better that telling them to do this or that 15:41:24 "sbcl's directory is junk" <- bad. good -> "sbcl's directory is not useful to me. would you add this feature if I wrote it?" 15:41:27 see the difference? 15:41:38 clear as water 15:42:20 and on getting help with implementing it, a good place to put some initial effort in is writing the *documentation* for this additional option 15:42:38 since this is an extension, it hasn't got a spec already, so stating exactly what it does is good 15:42:38 tc-rucho: and notice, there are already many sbcl developers in this channel, so be careful 15:42:43 kpreid: the documentation would be damn easy to write 15:42:52 tc-rucho: it should be precise 15:43:02 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:43:26 if I were in your position, I would write to sbcl-devel and include these three things: 15:43:37 1. your use case: what you will be doing with the extension 15:43:45 2. the documentation for the extension 15:44:09 3. some questions about how to implement it that you have after looking at the source code 15:44:13 maybe write CDR? 15:44:20 stassats: overkill :) 15:44:24 stassats: what do you mean? 15:44:40 or rather, too much mechanism for this small problem from a newcomer 15:44:44 tc-rucho: cdr.eurolisp.org 15:44:47 minion: what does cdr stand for? 15:44:47 Comicalness Dissipated Romanceless 15:44:52 wtf? 15:44:57 minion: cdr? 15:44:58 tc-rucho, Common Lisp Document Repository. 15:44:58 cdr: The Common Lisp Document Repository is hosted at http://cdr.eurolisp.org. http://www.cliki.net/cdr 15:45:05 lol 15:45:16 What's so funny? 15:45:29 nothing 15:45:54 just the off topic acronym minion just output 15:46:31 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:46:42 even better, add back the keyword which DIRECTORY took in CMUCL =p 15:47:03 less is more! 15:47:24 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 15:48:10 hefner: so in cmucl there are keywords that handle this usage scenario? 15:48:41 http://common-lisp.net/project/cmucl/doc/cmu-user/extensions.html#@funs67 15:49:27 that's exacly what sbcl's directory lacks 15:49:37 a :follow-symlinks key 15:50:20 tc-rucho: so a good place to start in implementation might be to compare CMUCL's DIRECTORY to SBCL's, since SBCL was derived from CMUCL 15:50:31 I'd just bite the bullet and use sb-posix 15:50:40 kpreid: that's what I am doing, fetching cmucl's sources 15:50:41 interaction with the outside world shouldn't be done with cl pathnames 15:51:00 that way lies madness 15:51:01 (IMO) 15:51:19 I disagree. 15:51:22 (...but it's equally-but-differently mad in the other direction...) 15:51:37 hefner: check my lisppaste.... 15:52:30 -!- bertskert [n=Marcus@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:53:29 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B168E20.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:53:56 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Success] 15:54:30 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:38 How do I specify a relative pathname in an asdf system? That is, suppose all the components are in a subdirectory of the directory where the asd file is, and I want to specify that as an argument (I presume with :pathname) to the defsystem. 15:57:11 LiamH: the easiest way to do that is to use a module 15:57:31 put all your components in a module whose pathname is that dir, in the system 16:00:09 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 16:00:50 kpried: I know, but I thought stylistically that left something to be desired, and that there might be a way to specify the subdir at the top level. 16:01:21 kpreid: but if that's the best way to do it, that's what I'll do. 16:03:14 LiamH: http://repo.or.cz/w/iolib.git?a=blob_plain;f=net.sockets.asd;hb=HEAD <- :pathname argument of defsystem 16:04:36 fe[nl]ix: nice, that's what I've been looking for 16:04:52 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:09:25 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:10:11 disumu [n=disumu@p57A246FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:30 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 16:12:19 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:13:06 -!- hrr4 [n=hrr4@81.90.21.226] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:14:45 *kpreid* takes note 16:15:45 morning 16:16:01 kpreid: I don't seem to find the definition of the "names" function in cmucl. I'm emerging it in order to check what does it do, but, do you know it by any chance? 16:17:24 tc-rucho: no, I have no particular knowledge about cmucl. but are you sure what you're seeing is a function call? 16:17:24 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:18:09 not sure 16:18:22 I'll know about that once I get cmucl compiled 16:18:39 fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:05 somehow, I seem to find cmucl code clearer than sbcl's 16:20:17 -!- photon2 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [] 16:22:17 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@ip70-187-234-43.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Client Quit] 16:22:37 -!- arbscht_ [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:26:13 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["leaving"] 16:26:42 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:29:57 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:30:21 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 16:33:32 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-251-005.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:34:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 16:35:39 binghe [n=chatzill@218.109.144.37] has joined #lisp 16:35:42 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 16:36:22 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 16:37:21 [ann] cl-net-snmp 5.16 (who can set the topic?) 16:38:01 binghe: you 16:38:01 It's not 5.16, it's 5.19 ... (sorry) 16:38:20 -!- binghe changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language: , . common-lisp.net back in service, please email problems to admin@common-lisp.net. New: yason-0.1, trivial-features 0.4, SBCL 1.0.22, CFFI 0.10.3, series 2.2.10, trivial-garbage 0.17, usocket 0.4.0, cl-net-snmp 5.19 16:38:41 fe[nl]ix: thanks 16:38:55 binghe: put it in the front of the list 16:39:26 -!- binghe changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language: , . common-lisp.net back in service, please email problems to admin@common-lisp.net. New: cl-net-snmp 5.19, yason-0.1, trivial-features 0.4, SBCL 1.0.22, CFFI 0.10.3, series 2.2.10, trivial-garbage 0.17, usocket 0.4.0 16:40:55 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-149.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:48:09 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has left #lisp 16:48:11 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 16:48:40 -!- binghe [n=chatzill@218.109.144.37] has left #lisp 16:49:21 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 16:49:32 binghe [n=chatzill@218.109.144.37] has joined #lisp 16:49:44 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:50:42 I'm trying to give cl-html-diff a go but when I (require :cl-html-diff) I get an error: "error opening #P"/usr/src/clbuild/source/cl-html-diff_0.1/html-diff.fasl":" because it doesn't exist. How do I create it? 16:50:45 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:08 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["leaving"] 16:52:09 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-224-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 16:53:20 kzar: generally speaking, you need to compile html-diff.lisp. 16:53:54 Normally I'd expect that you'd have used ASDF to do that but I don't know how clbuild interacts with/replaces/supplements regular ASDF. 16:55:16 (asdf:operate 'asdf:compile-op :cl-html-diff) gives the same error, how would I compile it? 16:56:14 Hmmm. Have you checked that the file in fact doesn't exist. Sometimes if the file does exist but was compiled by an older version of the same Lisp it will be unable to load it. 16:56:30 I.e. the error message might not be exactly accurate. 16:56:40 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:56:53 gigamonkey: Yea the file doesn't exist, but the .lisp does. 16:57:19 gigamonkey: So I guess a .fasl is a somehow compiled .lisp and I need to figure out to compile it? 16:57:20 You could always compile that one file with COMPILE-FILE but that would really just be addressing the symptom. Something is messed up in your configuration or in html-diff. 16:57:35 kzar: that is indeed what a .fasl is. 16:58:19 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:58:37 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:58:47 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:58:53 gigamonkey: Yea I don't know, it's getting a big mess to be honest. Just getting all these various packages installed through clbuild took me ages. I set up some packages for the various apps but now stuff like (quit) is broken as well. (I tried (cl-user:quit) .. no luck. I'm finding it quite hard to get a clean setup 17:00:23 welcome to package hell 17:01:30 Good evening. 17:02:05 kzar: FWIW, I just downloaded cl-html-diff (and cl-difflib on which it depends) added them to my asdf:*central-registry* and loaded the system. 17:02:05 kzar: have you tried forgetting clbuild and just using asdf-install to get what you need? 17:02:15 I don't know anything about clbuild. 17:02:28 Or forget asdf-install and just download the tars yourself. 17:02:30 *gigamonkey* is a luddite. 17:02:45 I mean I have basically got it working was a bit of a mission I don't really want to change now 17:03:02 Have you successfull loaded any other systems? 17:03:08 I.e. other libraries? 17:03:35 morning beach. 17:03:42 gigamonkey: Yea, I got Hunchentoot (and recently Weblocks!) and everything working kind of OK. Made my own little package for my website 17:04:20 gigamonkey: I think I compiled that fasl now, appears permissions weren't lax enough to allow it to write there 17:04:35 That would explain it. 17:05:17 Hmm lets see if I can get my little app working now 'eh 17:05:36 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.95.221] has joined #lisp 17:06:37 gigamonkey: Cheers for the help by the way 17:06:44 kzar: no problem. 17:07:46 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [] 17:08:00 cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has joined #lisp 17:08:41 I think I just need to understand lisp packages, ASDF packages, clbuild, lisp images and how they all hang together a bit better 17:08:54 It's quite a lot to learn I guess 17:09:07 For starters you should refer to ASDF *systems* 17:09:18 If you want to be precise, anyway. 17:09:41 Exactly because "packages" already refers to Lisp packages. 17:10:37 gigamonkey: Right that makes sense, guess that really proves I need to read some more. It's crazy though, as much as I learn with Emacs and Lisp and everything it just seems there's craploads more to learn every time 17:11:13 matley [n=matley@83.225.230.14] has joined #lisp 17:11:28 gigamonkey: I need to learn how to use StumpWM properly, I still haven't really mastered org-mode, still getting gnus working, still need to master Emacs killring, that lisp stuff I mentioned earlier, etc etc heh 17:11:52 It never ends, but better than hitting a limit with your tools I guess, better the limit is you 17:12:20 <``Erik> if you're not learning, you're stagnant. If what you're learning isn't difficult, you're underachieving. :) 17:14:02 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A246FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 17:14:14 <``Erik> giga: how's the interview book coming? :) 17:14:32 Heh yea, I mean I love adding little features and keys and everything, very handy. Just got remember mode working yesterday. Still need to read up on Weblocks to give that a proper try as well. 17:14:56 I'm really loving Tramp though and Emacs is starting to save me a lot of time with some of the stuff I do 17:15:07 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 17:16:27 <``Erik> I've been a vim guy for over a decade, so emacs is rough on me :( weblocks has nice docs, I've been toying with that, bknr and ucw... my gut feeling is that ucw is the big win, but a complete lack of newb availability distances it 17:17:11 ``Erik: Never heard of ucw, what's that? 17:17:20 minion: ucw? 17:17:21 ucw: UnCommon Web is a Common Lisp web application development framework. http://www.cliki.net/ucw 17:17:22 <``Erik> UnCommon Web, continuation based 17:18:17 <``Erik> ther'es a #ucw, drewc seems to be accepting the role of abusee, as marco has moved on to commercial endeavors 17:18:55 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:19:31 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:20:06 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:21:05 ``Erik: Hmm seems interesting, much different from Weblocks? 17:21:23 <``Erik> still trying to figure that out :) 17:22:56 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:49 <``Erik> I feel like the victem of gross hypocrisy, so I've many fights to battle... my standing environment, for example, is fbsd server, mac dev platform... obscenely common, but we don't advertise the stance. The greater lisp community says "well, choose the right os! get linux!" on one hand, then "we're popular even though we don't brag, don't believe the hype!" on the other... the infamous 'reddit' story is not terribly uncommon, I believe... I 17:25:18 -!- elurin [n=user@88.254.98.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:25:46 ``Erik: I use a mac for development and deploy on freebsd as well 17:26:19 ``Erik: I use good ol' Debian for server and Desktop :D . I think if I could afford a Mac I would buy one though 17:26:43 <``Erik> I used to like debian, it was the least bad of the linux distros, but I did too much kernel work back in the 90's 17:28:17 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:28:50 <``Erik> ingo's scheduler is damn nifty, but I still would feel awfully uncomfortable staking my livelyhood on that kernel 17:29:46 <``Erik> also; *pets his brand new macbook, less than a week old* :D 17:30:18 <``Erik> kzar: if you can come up with a 2 sentence comparison of weblocks vs ucw, I'd love to hear it 17:32:20 <``Erik> my idea involves a web interface, a set of very lisp/scheme/function friendly recursive algorithms, a reasonably simple graph of data that needs to be disk synced, but is not sql friendly, ... :) 17:32:21 -!- ths [n=ths@122.169.94.10] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:33:52 -!- matley [n=matley@83.225.230.14] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:34:02 *tcr* wonders where he saved his CDRs' texinfo source files... 17:36:01 ``Erik, one has documentation and one doesn't 17:37:16 I spent half my summer porting a large web application from UCW to Hunchentoot because it's functionality was for too complicated than needed 17:37:56 its* 17:41:27 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.32] has joined #lisp 17:41:48 -!- binghe [n=chatzill@218.109.144.37] has left #lisp 17:42:59 <``Erik> yeh, lack of doc == newb unavailability. I've been doing simple hunchentoot stuff to try to get my head around lisp vernacular 17:43:05 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a6a-080.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:43:16 jestocost [n=cmell@cad439-224.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 17:43:34 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["leaving"] 17:43:35 <``Erik> like the ruby on rails argument, you can go from 0 to something almost instantly, but you can't go past something 17:45:01 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:45:53 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 17:48:42 <``Erik> out of curiousity, when I compile something using sbcl, I see an error roll by and inside of an asd system, there's a let form... and I see the thing defined inside of that let viewed as package::thing... given that let creates a new subenvironment, wtf is the package name mixed in? 17:49:41 you reported by the error? 17:49:45 you mean 17:51:25 <``Erik> uhm, this was a month or two ago, and I'm a little inebriated at the moment... I tried compiling an asdf package I wrote, there was an error in one of my functions in, say, the quux package, which followed the (defun blah () (let ((foo ...)) xxx)))) form, somewhere in xxx was a mistake, and the error message referred to quux::foo 17:51:54 Erik: so? 17:52:08 <``Erik> it seemed weird that the let would know the package to me :) 17:52:24 Erik: it has nothing to do with the form being `let' 17:52:39 <``Erik> it's a state thing? 17:53:15 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-251-005.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:53:48 <``Erik> I'm a scheme weenie, and when I was confused by this, my local lisp weenie wasn't able to provide an answer, he recommended I ask here... took some liquid to work up the courage, given the reputation O:-) 17:53:56 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-251-005.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:04 Erik: it's likely that the current package wasn't quux, and the printer is being helpful by qualifying the symbol name with the package it belongs to 17:54:07 ``Erik: No, it's the printer that prints fully qualified symbols so you can know what the name actually refers to 17:54:38 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:55:36 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:56:38 -!- jewel [n=jewel@41.247.196.192] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:02:43 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:27 -!- drwhen [n=drwho@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:06:59 drwhen [n=d@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:50 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:11:56 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@121.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 18:11:58 tcr: but then i had to decide about callf, which i deliberately left to the others... :) 18:13:02 attila_lendvai: I don't think a need for ensure-functionf arises often. 18:13:43 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:14:45 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:16:06 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:43 tcr: the typical use-case is functions with args like &key (key 'identity) (test 'eq) that should also run fast, so they look up the functions before e.g. looping 18:26:22 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:29:15 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["leaving"] 18:33:33 mr_uggla [i=mzsillan@melkinpaasi.cs.helsinki.fi] has joined #lisp 18:33:48 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.176.12] has quit [] 18:35:10 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:38:07 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 18:40:17 Right here we go. Poking around with the McCLIM here, and I have this command in a menu. and that works just fine, I just want to make sure that the tab layout is displaying the interactor tab-page.. So I figured I'd have com-search-database-wrapper switching the page, and that calling com-search-database .. But that just gives me the "My god! You need one argument here!". This with ((query 'string :prompt "Search string: ")) in the com-sea 18:40:24 Is there any neat way around this= 18:40:26 ? 18:40:49 hmm. 18:41:15 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:06 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:44:55 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 18:45:53 Kind of a stupid question but how do I write a string to a file without putting extra quotes around it? I'm guessing (print string out) is the problem with how I'm doing it 18:46:41 use `write-string' 18:46:42 -!- jao [n=user@47.Red-79-155-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:46:42 write-string 18:47:19 or princ 18:47:50 I guess I need to figure out how to make the prompt asking for stuff meself :) 18:48:19 schme: I don't understand the question (which also was truncated at "in the com-se" 18:48:34 jao [n=user@241.Red-83-36-220.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:10 hefner: Oh ok. 18:49:24 hefner: I have this app, which has a tab-layout. and a command up in the menu. 18:49:35 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-50-169.man.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:39 Hello all. 18:49:54 hefner: selecting that command from the menu fires up com-search-database . Which has args ((query 'string :prompt "Search string: ")) . So that works nice. 18:50:20 hefner: 'cept the interactor pane is in a tablayout, and I want to add a (switch-to-page ...) when I click the menu item. 18:50:38 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:50:50 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:50:50 hefner: So I did a wrapper . com-search-db-wrapper which switches. and then tried calling the other command. Which says "argument missing" 18:51:11 hefner: and putting the switching in the first command makes the waiting prompt pop up before anything else :) 18:51:41 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:53:17 just out of curiosity, what happens if it tries to prompt you for the argument when the interactor tab is not visible? 18:53:43 hefner: Well it pops up the prompt on the interactor pane. 18:53:51 but you can't see it? 18:53:54 hefner: and I have to click that tab to see it. 18:54:07 well, that's better than erroring, anyway. 18:54:15 Oh yes, totally :) 18:54:50 ah got it. 18:55:00 (accept 'string) seems to be abuseable :) 18:55:27 Excellent. 18:57:06 I was going to suggest hanging code to select the interactor off some :before method, so that you don't need the wrapper command and can use mcclim's standard command arg parsing, but haven't found a good place to do it 18:57:51 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 18:58:24 I was macroexpanding the define-foo-frame-command and it seems to results in a bunch of defuns. 18:58:25 I've never understood why so much code is generated in macros for commands, rather than having some universal function to handle parsing arguments and such. It isn't as if it's performance critical. 18:58:34 right, exactly. 18:58:43 The wrapper is gone now though :) 18:58:59 cpape` [n=user@p5484E9EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:59:48 *hefner* remembers he doesn't like CLIM, wanders off 19:00:06 Hehehe. 19:00:52 hefner: So what -do- you recommend using for writing GUI applications in Lisp? 19:01:09 nyef: I don't. =/ 19:01:19 Ah. Fair enough. 19:01:55 ...maybe that's why he doesn't do 'em? (I for sure wouldn't know what to use) 19:03:43 I don't even know where I start, because there's a couple approaches you could take (sometime conservative upon CLX, binding to a foreign toolkit, or something else ambitious and pretty that won't work reliably anywhere), but whenever I think about it too long, I just conclude that writing software is futile. :) 19:04:13 I need a real application to work on, I guess. 19:05:51 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 19:06:16 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 19:07:45 *rsynnott* would be terribly inclined to stick to clozure's obj-c bridge if writing a gui app 19:08:06 topo [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has joined #lisp 19:08:10 rsynnott: mac user? 19:08:33 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:08:55 I'm not sure whether it's to OS X's credit or not that using the native facilities seems like the only reasonable option. 19:09:43 hefner: yep 19:10:06 ltk is actually okay, too, but results in REALLY ugly interfaces 19:10:37 It increases the cost of porting existing programs to OS X (or -from- OS X), to the benefit of having all applications in the system tend to look like they belong there, more or less. 19:11:15 (Let's see... I can write on Linux and target Linux and Windows, or I can write on OS X and target OS X... I wonder which I'll do?) 19:11:20 nyef: well, people have the option of using things like wxwindows or QT 19:11:23 on macos 19:11:28 duaneb [i=45cd3b57@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a6f72a972f6cef52] has joined #lisp 19:11:31 nyef: that's a tough decision! 19:11:31 at the cost of the apps looking a bit out of place 19:11:47 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host82.190-137-178.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:11:57 fortuntely, I'm currently doing webapps, where all I have to worry about is IE6 doing things weirdly 19:11:59 rsynnott: Yeah, exactly. And if it's commercial software, that'll kill sales. 19:12:12 hefner: Not really, I don't have an OS X system. 19:13:01 Tordek [n=tordek@host198.190-226-114.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 19:13:12 though particularly as of Vista, macos is probably about the only OS with a consistent GUI now anyway 19:13:12 speaking about mcclim: can i use draw-pattern* inside dragging-output? 19:13:59 Oh, god. I had to help someone set up a Vista machine over the past couple days. So -slow-. And trying to burn the recovery disks was painful. 19:14:25 they've abandoned any pretense of UI standardistation at this point 19:14:48 the only way you get at a lot of the new UI features is through the scary old Win32 API, and even then it's convoluted 19:15:15 stassats: I'd say yes, but I think double buffering is used by the dragging code, and there's a bug where double buffering will screw up pattern drawing. 19:15:20 (Really, how much would it have cost to put the recovery disks in with the computer? Now, how much time does it take to burn the disks instead. And finally, how much is my time worth? Who loses here?) 19:15:22 -!- cpape [n=user@p5484FE8E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:15:35 nyef: yep, you need a VERY fast computer to run it vaguely sensibly 19:15:57 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:16:01 I had it at old-job for a while, on a quad-core intel thing with 2GB ram; it was unreasonably slow 19:16:02 rsynnott: Right, and while this machine outpowered my XP machine by a healthy margin, my XP machine is still faster. 19:16:15 hefner: yeah, the result doesn't seem good 19:16:19 Wiping the default install and just putting plain Vista on my laptop helped significantly. 19:16:33 fortunately, I was able to convince them to buy me an XP license when it turned out that (at the time) there was no supported version of Visual Studio for Vista :) 19:16:38 Of course I lost some of the included software (the only thing I cared about being the CD copy tool), but a small price to pay. 19:17:27 If you care at all about running 64-bit stuff, Vista x64 is much less of a pain than XP x64, which is really Server 2003 pretending to be XP 19:17:40 -!- duaneb [i=45cd3b57@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a6f72a972f6cef52] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 19:18:06 very little need for desktop 64bit stuff for the moment though 19:19:00 So, what's the half-life on the installed base of 32-bit windows machines? 19:19:19 For some reason that I don't understand, 32-bit XP and Vista can't see 4GB of memory in a system, which is probably the biggest reason to care right now. 19:19:50 chandler: video cards and things need to have their memory mapped, which eats into the 4GB memory space 19:20:10 Mmm... What with more and more computers these days having 4GB or more. 19:20:15 (in extreme cases, some computers-for-mad-gamers can end up with about 2GB addressable) 19:20:22 rsynnott: this "just works" with a 32-bit Linux kernel, so I don't buy that 19:21:07 chandler: oh, okay, that's weird then 19:21:14 it's usually the video card thing 19:21:16 rsynnott: could you elaborate on that? 19:21:21 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physical_Address_Extension 19:21:27 *nyef* sighs. 19:21:35 Clearly, I'm not getting anything done today. 19:21:48 nyef: what did you wanted to do? :) 19:21:52 tcr: if you have two video cards with 512MB ram each, say, then all that ram has to be memory mapped by the host machine 19:22:08 so you're masking a GB, if you have 4GB ram 19:22:27 chandler: ah, yep, linux apps are somewhat more likely to able able to take advantage of that 19:22:28 It seems to be a driver issue in Windows (typical). 19:22:29 Oha, I didn't know that 19:22:30 tcr: I was planning to do some design work on the content pipeline for my website. 19:23:01 nyef: when can we expect the debut of the trendy lisper? 19:23:05 (various other things like high-end raid controllers can also take a bit, but video cards are usually the main culprit) 19:23:17 hefner: You know, I'm not sure. I had actually forgotten that I had the domain. 19:23:49 And have just over a year left on the registration. Hunh. 19:24:02 I may have to factor that into my planning. 19:24:21 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:24:23 rlpowell_ [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 19:25:08 -!- rlpowell_ is now known as rlpowell 19:30:37 when i bought one of these new vista-only laptops, i've spent half a day to hunt for drivers, extract the windoze xp install, force in the new drivers, repackage the iso, burn it and install it... /off 19:32:01 see, this is why I'm glad I just went for an outrageously expensive mac :P 19:32:02 *stassats* just installed ubuntu on it 19:33:15 yeah, and since then i almost exclusively used ubuntu... although i had a lot of fun with witcher, so it wasn't a totally wasted effort... 19:33:44 I'm still hoping that I'll get my vista-only laptop working properly in linux one of these days. 19:33:55 Heh. Unfortunately, I haven't yet found a version of Linux that will run on my Vista laptop (where "run" includes a reasonable amount of the hardware working) 19:33:58 -!- jsimonss [n=jesse@urda-140.teknologforeningen.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:52 ACPI suspend seems to be the big sticking point now. Hardy would actually manage to corrupt the Linux partition and confuse the heck out of grub when it tried to suspend. Intrepid just doesn't come back to life. 19:34:54 fisxoj_ [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 19:35:35 do people generally keep production stuff up to date with the latest sbcl? 19:35:45 I'm wondering if it's worth the trouble to upgrade 19:35:53 I don't. I can't supply a "general" answer. 19:36:50 i'd go with the rule "if it's working, don't update" 19:36:58 matley [n=matley@83.224.178.50] has joined #lisp 19:37:44 chandler: Last I checked, I had the choice of working suspend-to-ram, or working networking at home. 19:38:14 buy a thinkpad! 19:38:16 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.32] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:19 I don't care about the modem, and everything else is user-mode damage. 19:39:21 Surprisingly, the bcm* reverse-engineered WiFi drivers seem to work these days, and even sound seems to be working. 19:39:34 However, I don't like the idea of a laptop that I can't put to sleep when the power is running low. 19:39:52 chandler: What hardware do you have, btw? 19:40:23 It's a HP dv2221us, which has a 1.8GHz Turion 64 x2 and an nVidia chipset of some sort 19:41:15 Interesting. I have an HP tx1305us. The latest kernel releases seem to work for suspend. 19:41:43 *rsynnott* considers nvidia chipsets to be ptrouble in general 19:41:51 Oh, that's the same chipset. 19:42:05 Are you using Ubuntu? 19:42:10 (To test, try an echo "mem" > /sys/power/state from an initrd so you can't corrupt your filesystems. If the keyboard works when the system comes back, you're good, and just need to suspend from X with the nvidia blob riunning. 19:42:16 I'm using gentoo. 19:42:33 I didn't load the nVidia blob. Maybe that's my problem. 19:42:33 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 19:42:42 You're using the open-source drivers? 19:42:52 (had great fun with a server which randomly died entirely every few days a while back; it turned out the reason was that the kernel people had decided, in their infinite wisdom, to support a dubious new nvidia disk controller feature intended for the mad-gamer set) 19:42:58 it, of course, didn't work properly 19:43:25 this support was enabled by default, of course; once it was switched off, no more problems 19:43:25 derekv [n=derek@noogenesis.resnet.mtu.edu] has joined #lisp 19:43:27 Yes. I always grumble when I have to install the nVidia blob, not out of principle but just because I'm always afraid that some random system update wil break it. 19:44:02 The nv driver doesn't support card re-init *at all*, nouveau is apparently starting to work with the older cards (NV04, say). 19:44:02 I'd prefer of course to be using the Intel open-source drivers, but when I bought the system I wanted 64-bit and the Core 2 Duos were new and incredibly expensive. 19:44:11 Ah. 19:44:34 So I could go all open-source linux... on my XP machine. 19:44:44 So, at the moment I have a 64-bit Linux running inside VMware Player, which works well enough in that I can just go to full screen and run Emacs. 19:44:51 I think the lesson of both chandler and rsynnott here is to never upgrade 19:45:40 hefner: I'm beginning to learn that one after I hit the "update" button in OpenSolaris and wound up breaking the system ld. 19:45:47 can sbcl optimize for architecture, for example, generate SSI instructions 19:45:48 Attractive nuisance, that. 19:46:08 derekv: I'm assuming you mean "SSE" there, and that seems to be two different questions in one. 19:46:33 Stragegic Simulations Incorporated? 19:46:34 derekv: The answer to the general question is "no", and SBCL doesn't use SIMD either. 19:46:35 chandler: yes I meant SSE (it felt like something was off when I typed that.) :P 19:47:19 As I recall, 32-bit SBCL doesn't naturally align memory tight enough for SSE to work anyway... 19:47:25 I think the floating point instruction set that is used on AMD64 is technically SSE, but it's not using it for SIMD purposes. 19:47:26 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 19:47:30 nyef: it'd just be slower. 19:47:38 pkhuong: Fair enough. 19:47:52 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 19:48:09 And I'm sure we all remember that someone (Xof?) did some proof-of-concept work. 19:48:55 http://common-lisp.net/project/sb-simd/ ? 19:49:42 slyrus___ [n=slyrus@adsl-76-229-91-235.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:49:44 -!- slyrus___ is now known as slyrus_ 19:49:55 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9a6c9559a5ff1e5b] has joined #lisp 19:50:21 lower precison is about all you're likely to get out of it if you're not using it explicitly 19:50:22 nyef: Anyway, now I'm tempted to go try Ubuntu again on the HP. 19:50:46 chandler: Best of luck if you do. But it really does need the latest kernel. 19:50:47 (and on the newest intel chips, the SIMD fp ops are apparently somewhat faster than the x87 ones) 19:51:22 nyef: by "latest" do you mean 2.6.27, or something newer and more exciting yet? 19:51:25 Only reason I'm not running it is, as I said, one of the changes broke networking for when I'm at home. 19:51:35 Yeah, 2.6.27. 19:51:41 Networking meaning WiFi or Ethernet? 19:52:03 Networking meaning anything being handled by NAT through my DSL gateway. 19:52:16 (A Westell VersaLink 327W.) 19:52:17 Wow. That's impressive breakage. 19:52:20 that's bizarre 19:52:30 I tracked down the patch, too. 19:52:37 anything weird in the output of route or anything? 19:53:12 vy [n=user@88.230.57.113] has joined #lisp 19:53:23 -!- prowack [n=ask@modemcable245.154-56-74.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["( www.nnscript.de :: NoNameScript 4.1 :: www.regroup-esports.com )"] 19:53:42 defn_ [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-d538788da08d3ba1] has joined #lisp 19:53:46 vy pasted "CUSTOM-FIND-CLASS" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70512 19:54:00 # bad: [33ad798c924b4a1afad3593f2796d465040aadd5] tcp: options clean up 19:54:09 This is what killed it. 19:54:16 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:54:17 Hi! How can I make above CUSTOM-FIND-CLASS to return LIB::LIB-CLASS? 19:54:24 I still haven't reported it to lkml. 19:54:31 vy: You need to pass a package argument to INTERN. Otherwise it is just interning in the current package. 19:55:09 chandler: Is there a way to realize LIB package in function definition, instead of hard-typing it? 19:55:22 If you want it to intern in the package where CUSTOM-FIND-CLASS is defined, use #.*package* as the argument. 19:55:31 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 19:55:45 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [No route to host] 19:56:05 Also, I'd suggest using FIND-SYMBOL for this purpose as it will not intern the symbol if it doesn't yet exist, and if it doesn't yet exist it obviously can't name a class. 19:56:08 chandler: Thanks! That solved the problem. 19:56:13 mulligan [n=user@e177080095.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:56:16 clhs find-symbol 19:56:16 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_find_s.htm 19:56:23 Much better! 19:56:40 -!- Twey [n=Twey@unaffiliated/twey] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:57:41 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:02 -!- defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-05d5ce34a08c1dad] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:59:18 nyef: Out of curiosity, why are you trying to put Linux on that? I've actually been incredibly impressed with the Windows handwriting recognizer, and have even on occasion been tempted to buy a tablet just for that. 19:59:57 Because I wanted a linux box? 20:00:07 Oh. Fair enough. 20:00:08 chandler: do you not find programming on windows rather... frustrating? 20:01:03 (using anything other than microsoft's own dev tools, it always seems to be a case of guessing which deformed version of unix path specifiers you should use, which port of gcc for libraries, etc) 20:01:04 rsynnott: In Common Lisp, at least. I think I'll avoid saying something positive about .NET lest I be lynched. 20:01:05 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-56-112.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 20:01:17 duaneb [i=45cd3b57@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fe5080725ec1daaf] has joined #lisp 20:01:19 .NET is fine on windows 20:01:22 so 20:01:27 in either ccl or sbcl 20:01:33 -!- cpc26 [n=cpc26@72.170.156.242] has quit [] 20:01:33 is there any way to extend it with c? 20:01:34 as is C++ if you confine yourself to Visual Studio 20:01:39 anything else is a bit painful 20:01:41 minion: tell duaneb about CFFI 20:01:42 duaneb: look at CFFI: CFFI, the Common Foreign Function Interface, purports to be a portable foreign function interface for Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/CFFI 20:01:45 avoiding the hideous ffi, please :) 20:01:45 duaneb: you can use C libs 20:01:50 oh 20:01:58 is that the only option? 20:01:59 visual studio is fairly painful regardless. 20:01:59 CFFI is an abstraction over the hideous ffi :) 20:02:09 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-221-63.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:02:12 Hmm. Looks like 2.6.28 might work. I'll have to check -rc5. 20:02:26 yea, but its still ffi 20:02:32 What are you expecting? 20:02:34 (without going for one of the commercial impls, actually, common lisp on windows is pretty mcuh impossible) 20:02:50 rsynnott: what, you don't like kittens? 20:02:51 duaneb: compared to Certain Other ffis I could name, it's really quite nice :) 20:03:14 not doom-kittens, no 20:03:16 duaneb: FFI is the only game in town. I'm not quite sure what you're expecting. 20:03:34 I dunno 20:03:39 chandler: I don't know about rsynnott, but I'm apparently allergic to kittens... and my XP machine stopped liking them as well. 20:03:39 something like python, perhaps 20:03:41 -!- fisxoj_ [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit [No route to host] 20:03:42 where you can load modules 20:03:51 where someone else does the ffi for you? 20:03:55 duaneb: I find python's approach more painful than CFFI 20:03:59 really? 20:04:04 I've found ffi to be horrific 20:04:10 at least with CFFI you can do most of the integration work in lisp 20:04:12 nyef: Something loaded in startup interfering with the SBCL memory map? 20:04:24 at the sake of speed and readability, though 20:04:27 with python's one you have to write a lot of C, using those weird python interaction things 20:04:47 chandler: Something like that. It was all working, and then it stopped, and the only change I really remember is a memory upgrade. 20:04:50 (in particular, IME you are far less likely to leak memory with CFFI) 20:04:54 duaneb: CCL and SBCL are native compilers with their own object layouts, garbage collection algorithms, etc. that are not designed to expose Lisp to C. 20:05:08 Python was designed to expose Python objects to C. Hence the difference. 20:05:25 If you'd like to broaden your query beyond CCL and SBCL, I can give you another answer. 20:05:40 nyef: Hmph. 20:05:48 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E43EB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:06:06 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E43EB8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:06:18 Anyway, my current SBCL-on-Windows strategy involves a VM running something sane, so I don't really worry about this too much. 20:06:53 My current SBCL-on-Windows strategy is to close the lid of my windows box and place my linux box on top... 20:06:53 yep, VMWare can be handy for that 20:07:06 I would love to see something like SBCL-on-Vx32: http://pdos.csail.mit.edu/~baford/vm/ 20:07:50 minion: tell duaneb about ECL 20:07:51 duaneb: please see ECL: Embeddable Common Lisp, a member of the KCL Family, is a Common Lisp implementation initially developed by Giuseppe Attardi and currently maintained by Juan Jose Garcia-Ripoll. http://www.cliki.net/ECL 20:08:37 chandler: thanks :/ 20:09:05 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 20:09:18 chandler: c is close enough to the underlying architecture that most things exposed to the processor with intent to run on a processor should be able to interact with c fairly easily 20:09:34 I have no idea what that statement means. 20:09:36 and, of course, vice versa 20:10:02 think of it this way: sbcl, for example, compiles to native code. This native code, however, uses labels and data just the same as c. 20:10:04 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Client Quit] 20:10:13 C is not "close enough" if you are coming from a compiler with a different stack layout and calling convention with different alignments for packed structures 20:10:23 Your last statement is false. 20:10:28 Therefore, if you expose to c a method to use sbcl's garbage collection, there should be no problem in allowing the two to interact 20:10:30 no, it's true 20:10:41 Well, find 20:10:43 fine* 20:10:53 calling conventions are easy to circumvent :P 20:10:57 not trying is inexcusable 20:11:01 shame we don't have a C compiler that uses SBCL's calling convention, right? =p 20:11:03 ffi is kind of a cop out 20:11:09 I don't think you should be lecturing me about SBCL unless you know what you're talking about. 20:11:15 I do :) 20:11:31 I really, seriously doubt it. There is no magic bullet here. 20:11:42 whatever 20:11:47 it's still stupid 20:11:59 SBCL's garbage collector is not like Python's garbage collector. There is a world of difference here. 20:12:18 I never mentioned python.... 20:12:41 You mentioned it as an example of what you want. Perhaps you should clarify what you're looking for, then. 20:12:44 And in any case, there's nothing inherent to c that stops it from using sbcl's garbage coillection 20:12:58 I want sbcl to allow c code to run, using its own heap 20:12:59 *Cough*. Yes, there is. SBCL moves objects. C doesn't tend to like that. 20:13:15 c is fine with it 20:13:21 it's the programmer that needs to be flexible 20:13:25 duaneb: be interesting to see what happened first time that C code called 'free' 20:13:33 ... 20:13:38 I never mentioned free 20:13:47 duaneb: and what exactly do you want C to allocate on the Lisp heap, anyway? 20:13:50 Again, expose it to sbcl's garbage collection routines 20:13:57 Oh, just some code I'm fiddling around with 20:14:02 It requires SBCL to expose an API to registering locations in C code where Lisp objects may be stored. 20:14:08 duaneb: can you articulate exactly what sort of C<->CL interface you'd consider non-horrific? 20:14:39 That is, an API for registering locations allocated by C code where Lisp objects may be stored. 20:14:59 Basically: I want to run c code by compiling it into a library, rather than hacking through ffi interfaces 20:14:59 Riastradh: I think he wants to allocate C objects on the Lisp heap, actually. 20:15:08 erm 20:15:09 You want magic? 20:15:14 That's about all you're describing right now. 20:15:17 hurgh 20:15:31 Mostly at the moment (though not in general), I just want to access llvm 20:15:32 No, no... I think I see how to do that. 20:15:36 duaneb: at one point you're going to have to write interface code. 20:15:37 duaneb's technology must be sufficiently advanced 20:15:49 pkhuong: much easier to do in c, as it happens 20:15:50 I think someone oversold you on the amount of AI present in SBCL. 20:16:03 duaneb: really? What makes you think that? 20:16:03 LLVM will be a different story altogether, duaneb, unless they've dropped C++ since I last checked. 20:16:03 (AI?) 20:16:05 I can't possibly imagine how to access LLVM from C sanely. It's a C++ API. 20:16:08 It requires some serious RTTI on the part of C, and of course custom malloc(), but... 20:16:11 "Artificial Intelligence" 20:16:16 pkhuong: because UFFI/CFFI in lisp is painful 20:16:17 oh, right 20:16:43 Look: if you just rewrite a malloc and free, c should be able to access the heap without worry! 20:16:44 Riastradh: these's a seemingly decent C interface (enough so to compile GVM code to llvm). 20:16:47 You keep saying that it is painful, but the only alternative you've put forth is "magic!!!" 20:16:48 And it relies on nobody lying to the compiler... 20:17:05 I honestly don't think it's that bad 20:17:13 hrr4 [n=hrr4@81.90.21.226] has joined #lisp 20:17:15 duaneb, what access to the (Lisp?) heap do you want? 20:17:19 And I dare say that the only concrete alternative to Lisp-style FFI that I've seen that would work for something like SBCL is JNI, which is far, far, far more painful than you could ever imagine. 20:17:34 you take your c lib and produce an overlay library which talks to it 20:17:36 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:39 duaneb: do you have any idea how objects and pointers are represented in SBCL? 20:17:41 then you forget about the c lib :) 20:17:46 Riastradh: I don't remember, actually :P 20:17:57 RIght now, I just want to load a damn static library and I'm venting 20:18:06 make it dynamic and load it. 20:18:10 pkhuong: a very vague idea 20:18:13 Has it occurred to you that you are doing the wrong thing and then complaining that it is hard? 20:18:19 pkhuong: It's not working very well 20:18:22 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:18:23 Um, no. gcc -shared libfoo.a -o libfoo.so 20:18:31 chandler: no, and you have no idea what you're talking about, so... shush, please :) 20:18:31 duaneb, what's the more general problem you're trying to solve? 20:18:40 duaneb, please be civil. 20:18:46 chandler: well, duh. A) not using linux, B) it doesn't work 20:18:59 duaneb, adding `:)' after an ad hominem attack makes it no less an ad hominem attack. 20:19:17 duaneb: So, platforms that support SBCL that don't use GCC... Win32? 20:19:21 duaneb: what are you using? 20:19:26 nyef: I'm guessing OS X at this point. 20:19:39 most other platforms, of course, allow creation of dynamic libs 20:19:44 and if I had to guess, the issue would lie in two-level-namespace land. 20:19:45 Ah, right. .dylib instead of .so. 20:19:48 (except IRIX, still, for some reason) 20:19:51 -dynamic_lib instead of -shared, too 20:20:38 I think you mean `-dynamiclib', although I vaguely recall that `-bundle' is preferable for dynamic loading (as opposed to dynamic linking). 20:20:55 or, if you're using windows, sacrifice the appropriate goat 20:20:56 These days there's no real difference. 20:21:03 And it is -dynamic_lib. 20:21:24 Not in my gcc(1) man page on Leopard. 20:21:50 "Beware of the Leopard." 20:21:51 Mm. Either works, actually. I wonder where I picked up -dynamic_lib from. 20:22:00 -bundles can be unloaded 20:22:02 Huh. OK. 20:22:03 I still don't understand how being able to malloc in the CL heap would avoid the need for an FFI, fwiw. 20:22:06 and loaded multiple times 20:22:17 Dynamic libs can be unloaded in Leopard, too. 20:22:29 yes, but i'm on tiger 20:22:32 duaneb, anyway, what problem are you trying to solve that you believe an alternative to FFIs to be a subproblem of? 20:22:36 OK. Well, make a bundle then. 20:22:39 duaneb: something similar, then 20:22:41 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:47 But I suspect that most of your problem is due to Mach-O brain damage at this point. 20:22:51 *rsynnott* used to use cffi-loaded stuff quite happily on tiger 20:23:17 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 20:23:38 rsynnott: Loading has never been a problem. 20:25:42 -!- vy [n=user@88.230.57.113] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:26:07 Ooh! I just found the patch to fix hibernate on my XP system. 20:28:09 *hefner* writes floating point number parser, forgets about negative numbers entirely 20:29:00 hefner: Ouch. 20:29:17 What every computre scientist should know about floating point numbers: they have negatives too! 20:29:37 fusss: I thought it was "they have negative zero"? 20:30:19 they also have that value that lies betwen negative and positive zero (NAZ?) 20:30:30 NaZ even 20:32:04 I should probably read that paper some day. 20:32:24 bloody floating points :P 20:32:36 don't forget "Reading Floating Points Accurately" ;-) 20:32:50 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:32:54 *rsynnott* had to design a floating point multiplier unit in college at some point; ridiculously big things 20:32:55 "What are those things floating around in there?" "Points." 20:33:04 duaneb: If you really feel there is something wrong with FFIs, I'd like to see an example of the alternative - preferably a working example so I know it isn't an open research problem. 20:33:06 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.163.101.131] has quit ["Annoy a psychic broadcaster: think for your self"] 20:33:19 Interestingly, DEFCLASS had :READER-PREFIX, and :ACCESSOR-PREFIX options which were later dropped 20:33:27 duaneb: Otherwise, this just seems like a rant with no constructive end. 20:33:48 Which were similiar to DEFSTRUCT's :CONC-NAME 20:34:03 chandler, I'm still waiting to figure out what he wanted to *do* with a C library, or even what C library it was. 20:34:09 rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has joined #lisp 20:34:14 Riastradh: i believe it was llvm. 20:34:21 Oh, right. 20:34:29 Sorry, I managed to forget that detail already. 20:34:44 Riastradh: ITYM "repress". 20:34:51 duaneb: For what it's worth, I solved my LLVM problem by generating bitcode. I wasn't loading LLVM-produced code though - and I can't think of a good reason to do that anyway. 20:35:07 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-68.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 20:35:22 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@adsl-68-79-133-165.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:37 chandler: Yea, but the c functions in llvm are right there... 20:35:56 duaneb: so call them already. 20:36:12 pkhuong: I can't 20:36:18 llvm can't build shared libraries 20:36:22 They're not "right there". C is a PITA. A pointer argument to a function can denote a dozen different things and there's no good way of telling short of reading the source. 20:36:29 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:36:49 chandler: ok, so I'll read the source.... 20:37:09 right, and being able to malloc from C would fix that issue. 20:37:11 duaneb, then you have to convey that information to Lisp if you want Lisp to interact with the library. 20:37:43 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 20:37:51 Not to mention that it won't be the best Lisp representation of the IR, anyway. What I chose to do for my prototype was to define nice CLOS classes representing the IR and then write serialization functions. 20:38:14 It worked well enough for me. YMMV, of course. 20:39:43 *nyef* waits for the inevitable "port SBCL to LLVM" suggestion. 20:40:02 Riastradh: Yea, know 20:40:07 nyef: ridiculous idea! but what about parrot? 20:40:13 So, have people looked into porting sbcl to llvm? 20:40:19 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:40:29 nyef: see what you've done? 20:40:30 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 20:40:45 duaneb: there were a few people who expressed interest in having an llvm port 20:40:45 what's parrot? 20:40:50 duaneb: We did. And then we laughed at the idea, and proceeded to ridicule it every time it came up since. 20:40:58 hehe 20:41:03 I wasn't actually seriously asking 20:41:04 duaneb: there's far fewer people (0) who expressed interest in /making/ one 20:41:05 duaneb, it's an often colourful creature of the bird variety. 20:41:25 It is a VM that is intended to host something that might someday become Perl 6. 20:41:27 It has no useful function for computers. 20:41:33 antifuchs: for the perl6-on-cl project, of course. 20:41:40 It is hoped that eventually people will use it to do something useful. 20:41:45 Note that a single parrot is apparently some sort of board game. 20:41:56 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:41:58 (The referent of the pronoun `it' in my last sentence was intentionally ambiguous.) 20:43:20 antifuchs: I have vaguely considered doing some kind of SBCL-for-generic-bytecode, but it then occurred to me that the (relatively) clean endian-independent instruction set was already defined for me, and lo and behold SBCL already does run on it. 20:43:34 So, now all we need is a MIPS interpreter. :-) 20:43:40 haha 20:43:44 *nyef* has a partial MIPS interpreter lying around. 20:44:17 the conversation has just taken an unexpected turn 20:44:20 or a sparc interpreter, surely? :) 20:44:27 rsynnott: Aiee. 20:44:40 also note the "endian-independent" part of that. 20:44:45 it has that nice register windowing! :) 20:44:47 well, yes 20:45:06 I'm sure I could find some abuse for that branch delay slot in an interpreter, though... 20:45:52 *nyef* shudders. 20:45:59 why, with an llvm backend, targetting the itanium might be practical! 20:46:10 Which would make the three IA64 users very happy 20:46:15 *hefner* should read about pipelining interpreters 20:46:27 relaxed shared memory parallel lisp 20:47:03 I seem to recall reading -somewhere- about putting a jump instruction in a branch delay slot, either to simulate single-stepping or to implement an interrupt/exception return in case it was an instruction in a branch delay slot that was interrupted. 20:47:32 The SPARC leaves the semantics of branches in delay slots undefined. The HP-PA defines the semantics, though. 20:47:38 teiresias [n=user@ip68-12-115-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:15 And the Raven used some special options to a jump instruction in a branch delay slot to perform reads and writes from microcode memory. 20:48:55 *rsynnott* is reminded of the golden age of making very cheap consoles out of slow processors 20:49:18 (a lot of early games consoles were dependent on design flaws in the 6502) 20:49:57 Design flaws? 20:50:02 rsynnott: so these were actually design features (: 20:50:13 OT question: Where's a good place to register domain names? 20:50:15 probably not documented or intended ones... (: 20:50:19 well, unintentional side-effects of doing undefined things 20:50:23 Draggor: any half-decent registrar 20:50:24 Ah, right. 20:50:27 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cad439-224.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:50:37 Draggor: Not network solutions. (expensive bastards) 20:50:38 Draggor: there are price-comparison sites, and this channel isn't one (: 20:50:42 jestocost [n=cmell@d288be-077.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 20:51:05 Draggor: I sent you a suggestion in /msg. 20:51:19 chandler: thanks! 20:51:27 nyef, antifuchs: think about it. SBCL-on-softMIPS could be the solution for all the users who want the flexibility of Lisp with the speed of Ruby. 20:51:45 so why do people use lisp? 20:51:47 out of interest? 20:52:05 chandler: sadly, with modern fancy processor emulation, it might end up faster than ruby 20:52:08 duaneb: because it gets the job done (the quickest)? 20:52:12 chandler: Oh, we'd write a JIT compiler for it. In Lisp, of course! 20:52:12 duaneb: there's really no alternative. 20:52:28 duaneb: why do you? 20:52:30 duaneb: If you're asking that question, I'm guessing that your rant about FFI was really a rant about being forced to use Lisp. 20:52:31 heh 20:52:44 chandler: actually, no 20:52:46 elurin [n=user@88.254.98.183] has joined #lisp 20:52:49 I'm just interested 20:52:55 Howdy ehu. I was going to ask you something about ABCL the other day, but now I've forgotten. Darn. 20:53:28 does anyone have references on rerolling unrolled loops? 20:53:28 pkhuong: because it allows *me* to mix high and low level 20:53:30 no problem. next time drop me a mail; it'll wait in my queue without you forgetting :-) 20:53:50 pkhuong: why would you want to do that? 20:53:58 chandler: looking at using it? 20:54:14 rsynnott: better L1I usage. 20:54:15 High level stuff а la dynamism and garbage collection 20:54:22 low level is... low level 20:54:24 rsynnott: It's an optimization, of course. Unrolled loops avoid branch overhead at the cost of code space. 20:54:29 inline assembly, optional memory management 20:54:56 That's a different sort of low-level than I expected for Lisp. 20:54:59 seems saner to stop them unrolling in the first place... 20:55:18 nyef: it's my own lisp ;) 20:55:37 Fair enough. With SBCL I get into low level things like USB device drivers. 20:55:55 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-56-112.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:56:12 sirbalmung [n=Steven@c-24-7-162-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:56:26 speaking of which, does sbcl allow inline assembly? 20:56:34 duaneb: not inline. 20:56:39 hrm :/ 20:56:55 No, it doesn't, but it's easy enough to tell it how to open-code a particular operation. 20:57:18 instead it has a relatively flexible system in which you can inject more data. 20:57:26 And I can't help but think that there's -some- way to manage it, but haven't figured out what it is yet. 20:57:45 rsynnott: not always. Unrolling potentially expose many optimisation opportunities. This is for a special purpose (vectors of floats and ints, arithmetic & selection, I guess you see where this is going) language in a term project. 20:58:02 ah 20:58:10 anyone on darwin ppc, btw? 20:58:19 so compiler unrolls, then sometimes rerolls? 20:58:20 sbcl crashed with a bus error; I've been using ccl since then 20:58:31 duaneb: how old ws the sbcl? 20:58:40 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:58:40 nyef: Inline assembly? Well, (defun/inline-assembly foo (args) ... (inline-assembly ...)) -> (define-vop #:G11423 ...) (defun foo (args) ...) 20:58:51 (though ccl may be a better choice on ppc macs, anyway) 20:58:55 duaneb: The latest binary does not work on 10.4; it's a known issue. 20:59:13 duaneb: You can build from source yourself until I figure out how to get a 10.5 system to build binaries that will run on 10.4 20:59:17 chandler: couldn't there be a magic info slot? 20:59:21 chandler: ahh, ohk, thanks 20:59:48 I am reading a variable in from a list and I want to assign this variable to a value but every way I have tried it says its not a symbol, is there a function to do this? Thank you for any help. 20:59:53 syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 20:59:53 pkhuong: That's more work, but it seems plausible. 21:00:24 I think most of the work would be in syntactic sugar for the assembler anyway. 21:00:51 right. eval (: 21:00:55 So with the McCLIM, what's the proper way to force a redisplay-frame-panes just after everything is set up? 21:00:56 chandler: Preferably without having to generate a new VOP per compilation of an inline assembly site. 21:01:22 sirbalmung: What is your use case? This seems like the wrong thing to do, to be honest. 21:01:26 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.95.221] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:01:33 sirbalmung: Generally, (setf (symbol-value foo) value) 21:02:35 antifuchs: no wait, I got it. Use gcc-llvm to compile the SBCL runtime and write a MIPS JIT using LLVM. 21:02:58 i am trying to allow the user to define the variables they want so they can eval them after 21:02:59 I'm sure *someone* will pay cash money to fund the development of this fantastic idea. 21:03:26 I get the distinct feeling that the LLVM model is sufficiently ill a fit to SBCL that an FFI would -still- be necessary. 21:03:30 rsynnott: well, the main appeal is that the user generates fully unrolled code, and denotes when ordering doesn't matter for a bunch of statements. The compiler does its mojo, including reordering statements to get good access patterns. Inserting a loop rolling pass here would make for cleaner code, and probably better perf in many cases. 21:03:44 it's the rupe goldburg machine of VMs! 21:04:13 nyef: Oh, of course. 21:04:17 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:06:00 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Success] 21:06:01 pkhuong: This is ringing a bell with me, actually, though it might just have been a particularly advanced loop fusion transformation that I'm remembering. 21:06:24 pkhuong: But sorry, no references come to mind. 21:06:59 chandler: thanks a lot! worked for me 21:07:32 *chandler* must now disembark the internets 21:07:50 cky [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:08:05 pkhuong: maybe you could adapt a common subexpression elimination algorithm so it allows one(?) operand to have changed during the recognition 21:09:25 remind me if there's a better way to detect the end of my string input stream than waiting for my (peek-char nil in nil) to return nil? 21:09:59 it's a pretty common transformation; I don't know how extensive implementations usually are, and I can't seem to find any good description of how it's done. 21:10:18 i can't find anything in the books or papers i have around 21:10:57 the morgan-kaufman book about compilers for parallel architectures would probably have something 21:11:18 seems like something the apl people might have figured out, too. there's that tim budd book about compiling apl. 21:12:05 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 21:13:51 oh well. I'm all about worse is better. Maybe I can get interesting results already without rerolling. 21:14:59 If worse is better, can we all go back to SBCL 0.8.x now? 21:15:26 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:16:08 -!- defn_ [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-d538788da08d3ba1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:03 nyef: well, I, in the context of that project. I'm trying to use brute force and laziness (unroll & pray) instead of being smart ;) 21:17:13 pkhuong: this is the book of which i'm thinking: http://www.amazon.com/Optimizing-Compilers-Modern-Architectures-Dependence-based/dp/1558602860/ 21:17:21 -!- duaneb [i=45cd3b57@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fe5080725ec1daaf] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:17:57 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["leaving"] 21:19:32 tokenrove: its index has 23 mentions of "roll", most of which in unroll-and-jam. 21:20:55 maybe you get to pioneer a whole NEW compiler optimisation :) 21:20:59 yeah, it just seems to me that maybe some loop jamming algorithm could be adapted to do rerolling 21:21:04 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 21:23:26 rsynnott: I found one reference on comp.compilers. It must be one of those things that are considered too obvious to explain. 21:23:36 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbb71a.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:24:06 Ugh. I hate those things. Mostly because if you're not part of the "in crowd" it's completely undocumented. :-/ 21:24:21 *rsynnott* occasionally regrets not getting more into compiler design 21:24:46 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 21:25:05 I had an internship offer for a research thing designing optimising compilers for vhdl for Bell Labs, but no, I just HAD to go into games instead 21:26:23 -!- sirbalmung [n=Steven@c-24-7-162-230.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 21:26:52 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:27:12 nyef, hmm, I still have SBCL 0.8.15 or so installed on one of my machines... 21:27:26 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:34 bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:27:40 Oops, no, I must have deleted it. 21:28:35 rsynnott: I don't think the job market is particularly interesting for compiler people. 21:29:20 -!- bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 21:29:57 pkhuong: i also find United States Patent 7367026 when looking for loop rerolling 21:33:19 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.95.221] has joined #lisp 21:33:35 pkhuong: possibly not 21:33:37 Re: Re-rolling unrolled loops. Please look into decompilation research. Cifuentes' thesis in particular. 21:33:42 quite interesting stuff, though 21:34:07 DCC did re-roll unrolled loops, IIRC. 21:37:21 it seems like rerolling is part of some loop vectorization techniques. 21:39:09 "Note that non- trivial compilation techniques like loop unrolling will need more agressive techniques to undo. Cifuentes and her group have worked on many issues around this topic" -- http://www.cl.cam.ac.uk/teaching/2000/OptComp/local/notes00a.ps.gz 21:40:58 -!- bertskert1 [n=Marcus@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:42:27 bingo! http://citeseerx.ist.psu.edu/viewdoc/summary?doi=10.1.1.59.9046 :-) 21:44:26 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 21:48:16 specbot: Help? 21:48:16 To use the specbot bot, say something like "database term", where database is one of ("clhs", "r5rs", "cocoa", "elisp", "clim", "ieee754", "ppc", "posix", "man", "cltl2", "cltl2-section") and term is the desired lookup. The available databases are: 21:48:16 "clhs", The Common Lisp HyperSpec; "r5rs", The Revised 5th Ed. Report on the Algorithmic Language Scheme; "cocoa", Classes in the Cocoa Foundation and Application kits; "elisp", GNU Emacs Lisp Reference Manual 21:48:16 "clim", Common Lisp Interface Manager II Specification; "ieee754", Section numbers of IEEE 754; "ppc", PowerPC assembly mnemonics; "posix", Single UNIX Specification 21:48:33 Eek. That's too much. 21:48:47 Still missing a line, too 21:49:08 Hm. 21:49:11 Could it be broken up so that simple "help" lists the database names, and you can ask for details on what each name referrs to? 21:49:24 Yes, if I'm inclined to hack on this at all. 21:49:34 Hrm... No CPU databases other than ppc? 21:50:11 Nope. Send alist of key (as string) to URL to lisppaste-requests AT common-lisp.net 21:51:49 Or just hack it in myself? 21:52:01 (Assuming I still have that much access, that is.) 21:52:20 Feel free. 21:52:27 Oh well, I have pdf manuals, I was just hoping for a shortcut to figuring this out. 21:52:53 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:47 stragerLN [n=strager@c-98-210-158-114.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:51 disumu [n=disumu@p57B9F4B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:33 -!- matley [n=matley@83.224.178.50] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:00:32 is there a suitable reference on the web to use for x86 or x86-64? 22:02:33 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-03.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:02:59 strager pasted "Number in beginner problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70525 22:03:01 getoo [n=user@c-67-183-23-48.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:19 Yeah ... 22:03:21 I did. 22:03:33 I'm a beginner and can't understand the error messages I'm given. 22:03:43 kpreid: are you arround? 22:03:51 lets get them to include lisp in topcoder 22:04:39 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:41 Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:05:02 stragerLN: set doesn't work that way, must be (set 'tmplist ...) 22:05:17 but don't use set, use let and setf 22:05:44 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:05:45 I see 22:05:45 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-126-155.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:05:52 setf is set but the ' is done for yuo ? 22:05:53 *you 22:06:10 I know about let; I got rid of it because that's what I thought the problem was, but it wasn't 22:06:28 yes, setf is working like setq in that case, and setq stands for `set qoute' 22:06:41 or qouted 22:06:47 So what's the f in setf mean ? 22:07:17 place! (the f is silent) 22:07:19 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [] 22:07:22 nobody knows for sure, but f means that setf uses places 22:07:23 (field, probably) 22:09:28 kami-` [n=user@p4FD387F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:09:32 strager annotated #70525 with "numin2: New and improved" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70525#1 22:09:43 Still doesn't work; same error 22:09:55 I really don't understand the whole do structure 22:09:56 -!- FZ [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/fz] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.18/2008102918]"] 22:10:00 just pretend sset and setq don't exist, and you'll be fine 22:10:15 stragerLN: now your let is wrong 22:10:16 pretending 'do' doesn't exist is also an option :) 22:10:20 I'm used to C, and it seems like 'do' is a 'for' with things moved around 22:10:32 stassats: oh? 22:10:52 pjb [n=pjb@free.informatimago.com] has joined #lisp 22:11:37 stragerLN: wait, i'll annotate 22:11:40 -!- kami-` [n=user@p4FD387F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:11:41 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 22:11:43 kami-` [n=user@p4FD387F1.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 22:13:45 stassats annotated #70525 with "improved" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70525#2 22:14:31 damn, my wi-fi connection is weak 22:15:04 stragerLN: now i'm unsure that your do is correct 22:15:26 fisxoj_ [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.32] has joined #lisp 22:15:49 stassats: hmm, I thought when you modify 'list' you're modifying the data and not a copy 22:15:55 Like references in C++ 22:16:03 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:16:05 Maybe I misunderstood this book? 22:16:15 stragerLN: no, with let you're still making reference 22:16:16 mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has joined #lisp 22:16:27 Hello all. 22:16:33 Oh ... well I don't want to modify the list, just count. 22:16:37 Does anyone know why "Conceptual Dependency" died? 22:16:38 but you don't modify data here, just references, so it's ok 22:16:51 The theory that roger shank of stanford and then yale was involved in? 22:17:02 btw. it's not clever to modify argument ? 22:18:21 stassats annotated #70525 with "and finally working" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70525#3 22:18:40 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0733.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:18:59 Ah; I just realized I could use dolist to iterate the list 22:19:42 stassats: Eek; terms I don't know! =S 22:19:44 tokenrove annotated #70525 with "why not just write this?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70525#4 22:20:04 It seems like no work was done in that framework past the 80's, but even in light of modern NLP methods it seems to have been much more effective for certain tasks. 22:20:10 benny [n=benny@i577A0733.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:20:16 tokenrove: I am learning Lisp, and only have a few functions I know about 22:20:36 stragerLN: right, so i'm introducing you to a new one ;-) 22:20:42 /o\ 22:20:56 Looks like keywords. Lisp uses keywords like that ?? 22:21:00 Or is that conceptual? 22:21:11 which, as hated as loop is, is very handy for quick things like this. i prefer series, but since loop is always available... 22:21:18 ok, why don' just write (count 'a '(a b c a d)) ? 22:21:24 who hates loop? 22:21:44 hefner: i dunno, i keep hearing it, though. maybe paul graham? 22:22:08 he doesn't count. 22:22:50 stassats: I'm recreating that function as an excersize 22:22:59 i see 22:23:01 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9a6c9559a5ff1e5b] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:24:41 stassats: yes, i forgot about count. 22:25:21 Is there a way to count the number of atoms in a list, or maybe a way to flatten one? 22:26:04 -!- mehrheit [n=user@lan-84-240-55-160.vln.skynet.lt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:26:06 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD39263.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:24 clhs count-if 22:26:25 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_countc.htm 22:26:54 (count-if 'atom list) ; -> number of atoms in a sequence 22:27:30 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57B9F4B0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 22:27:31 antifuchs: Thanks. Just what I need. :> 22:27:51 with flatten mentioned, i assume that's about tree? 22:28:18 stassats: I suppose. I just want to "remove all parentheses" in an expression. 22:28:23 syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:28:46 -!- getoo [n=user@c-67-183-23-48.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:28:47 oh, that was two different questions? look for flatten in alexandria 22:29:11 Oh my; 'let' creates a context? 22:29:13 Or something? 22:29:45 stragerLN: yup. 22:29:57 yup to the "or something" (: 22:30:41 stragerLN: what book are you using? practical common lisp has a good chapter about variables, let, etc. 22:31:53 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:32:00 http://lib.store.yahoo.net/lib/paulgraham/acl2.txt 22:32:08 I just came across it and started reading. 22:32:21 Always been curious as to what makes Lisp "strange" 22:32:39 (All them ()()()()()(((((((())))()))))))))) rumours and such) 22:32:43 -!- Cowmoo [n=Cowmoo@207-237-217-78.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:32:44 Ah. 22:32:49 haha. rumours of movements in the east 22:33:20 anyway, it's best not to expect too much weirdness. good things await you, but it's not mind-bendingly odd 22:33:39 I enter Lisp with an open mind. 22:33:52 That's good. 22:34:03 It's mind-bendingly good! 22:34:39 tell stragerLN about pcl 22:34:42 oops 22:34:46 minion: tell stragerLN about pcl 22:34:47 stragerLN: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 22:35:02 K, thanks. 22:36:52 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:36:54 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.1.95.221] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:36:57 -!- jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:37:51 FareWell [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 22:42:17 -!- FareWell is now known as Fare 22:42:36 -!- Fare is now known as FareTower 22:43:14 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:43:26 hi FareTower 22:43:35 -!- FareTower is now known as Fare 22:43:44 hi 22:44:07 sorry, just playing around with nickserv 22:44:16 (someone else is trying to claim Fare) 22:44:25 how wude 22:47:52 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-68.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:48:33 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:05 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:50:07 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.137.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:52:18 froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 22:52:24 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:52:36 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:53:43 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:55:39 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-56-112.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 22:57:16 tic: it's un-fare 22:59:07 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:02:24 anyone has idea how to name mcclim chess interface? i lack fantasy 23:02:41 Fare, thanks for the laugh. I needed that. 23:03:55 maybe after some lispy or mcclimy grandmaster's name 23:04:42 stassats: will the game play that well? 23:04:56 anyone ever mess with this PVS ( http://pvs.csl.sri.com/ ) 23:05:05 "mcclimical turk" 23:05:15 Fare: it's just interface, without engine 23:06:31 cliche 23:07:55 not very google-friendly 23:09:32 frosty00014 [n=Frostysn@c-98-246-45-132.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:50 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:10:40 EtFb [n=etfb@203.22.236.8] has joined #lisp 23:10:59 freethink1 [n=berdote@adsl-211-121-144.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:11:20 gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 23:12:11 "mcclimical" has only 4 entries in google so far 23:12:26 fusss: thanks. It's on the stack. 23:12:35 *hefner* wonders why his M-DEL is bound to backward-delete-word 23:14:16 Fare: i refered to cliche, i wrote turk into candidates list 23:15:31 pkhuong: cheers! (dabbled in decompilation, probably more than a hobbyist should) 23:17:50 -!- danlei [n=user@pD9E2C513.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:33 rottcodd [n=jan@ppp59-167-56-108.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:56 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 23:20:19 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [] 23:20:28 tic: arghh! The darned livsmedelsverket stuff got messed up by my sqlite3 import. Seems sqlite3 does not like the едц :) 23:20:36 schme, eep! 23:20:47 danlei [n=user@pD9E2C513.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:22:45 stassats can you plug engines ? 23:22:46 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 23:22:50 like crafty 23:23:13 xristos: not yet, but that's in the plan 23:23:25 i started only yesterday 23:25:47 stassats, clipboard ? 23:26:26 climboard? 23:26:40 -!- cpape` [n=user@p5484E9EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:26:51 Are you going to support other board games besides those which take place on an 8x8 grid of black and white squares? 23:27:43 i haven't planned this 23:28:38 Then I have two recommendations: Don't pick anything too generic. And if you can't think of anything clever, there's always "clim-chess". 23:28:56 jso [n=user@151.159.200.89] has joined #lisp 23:29:23 clim-chess is the current working title 23:30:08 As a name, it's got everything but brandability. 23:30:26 tic: I think it's some thing with the saved file being ISO-8859 and not utf-8 23:32:20 Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 23:32:49 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:33:01 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 23:33:21 -!- EtFb [n=etfb@203.22.236.8] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 23:33:39 schme, yup, most likely. can you see any 0xC3 anywhere? If not, it's most definitely latin1 23:34:41 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:35:29 -!- froog__ is now known as froog 23:38:59 cl-pwned 23:41:47 -!- freethink1 [n=berdote@adsl-211-121-144.asm.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:41:47 -!- derekv [n=derek@noogenesis.resnet.mtu.edu] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:43:00 Twey [n=Twey@unaffiliated/twey] has joined #lisp 23:44:34 latin1 is newspeak 23:45:23 disumu [n=disumu@p57A261FD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:49 eevar_ [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:43 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:47:56 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C6FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:48:16 tic: god bless iconv :) 23:49:18 how about climate? not very google-friendly too 23:49:22 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:49:57 holycow [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:47 -!- eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:54:09 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 23:55:28 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:57:05 syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:57:59 dabd [n=dabd@85.139.104.119] has joined #lisp 23:58:23 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAC3E1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp