00:01:03 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 00:01:14 jso [n=user@67.130.170.131] has joined #lisp 00:01:18 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 00:02:17 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-198-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:08:25 -!- _Thoth_ [n=thoth@217.217.133.45.dyn.user.ono.com] has left #lisp 00:11:37 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.95.8] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:14:05 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:14:08 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:19:57 locklace: Thanks. 00:24:05 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-24-10.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:30:23 dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:33:50 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:38:57 Tordek [n=tordek@host82.190-137-178.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 00:39:32 -!- koning_r1bot [n=aap@dhcp-077-250-042-077.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:24 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:41:10 how do I get the *SLIME Description* window to go away without unsplitting my window? 00:42:44 Maybe C-x 4 b ? 00:43:46 ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.65.44] has joined #lisp 00:43:49 no, that switches the other side of the window 00:44:17 Then... C-x b ? 00:45:15 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:46:48 yeah, that works. it would be nice if, say, "L" did the same. but i'm too lazy to figure out how to make that work. 00:46:51 thanks 00:47:42 No problem. 00:48:44 Laziness is never in short supply, is it? 00:49:01 Indeed not. 00:49:54 I'm actually torn right now between wanting to get some more hacking done and knowing that to do any more hacking today would be bad. 00:52:07 qbg [n=quickbas@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 00:54:49 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@ppp-70-225-204-80.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 00:54:51 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.220.126] has joined #lisp 00:55:04 But I'm also aware of a number of projects that I'm just not working on that could be really interesting... or really tedious... or really frustrating... or all three. 00:55:28 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:57:21 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:00:07 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.74.197] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:02:15 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177145097.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 01:04:40 -!- jso [n=user@67.130.170.131] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:04:52 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 01:06:25 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:10:46 -!- Mynch [i=Mynch@ns150a.studby.ntnu.no] has quit [] 01:15:15 -!- qbg [n=quickbas@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 01:17:43 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 01:22:15 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:26:29 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:28:35 -!- dabd [n=dabd@85.139.101.167] has quit [Client Quit] 01:30:20 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:30:33 -!- bartiosz` [n=user@ejf118.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:31:02 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 01:35:07 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:36:37 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:36:42 freelab [n=freelab@58.61.220.126] has joined #lisp 01:38:00 koning_robot [n=aap@dhcp-077-248-142-146.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 01:38:08 birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 01:38:21 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 01:39:07 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 01:41:54 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:42:34 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:05 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-88-26.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:49:30 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:51:37 -!- Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:56:13 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 01:57:00 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:57:06 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:05:45 tic [n=tic@c83-249-194-249.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 02:10:05 -!- pjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:12:32 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:12:33 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 02:20:54 c'est fait 02:21:00 argh, wrong window. 02:21:14 c'est na pas parle! 02:21:51 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:22:25 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 02:22:34 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:25:43 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 02:27:43 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:28:09 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 02:32:44 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-45e544a50374fbf3] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:37:41 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:37:42 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:37:47 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:11 -!- JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:40:55 crod [n=cmell@cb8a16-106.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:43:06 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a16-106.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:50 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has left #lisp 02:48:59 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:51:45 -!- _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 02:52:37 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:52:53 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:55:02 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 02:55:03 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:10 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 02:57:44 holycow [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:01:00 -!- trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-242-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:03:08 NoorDextor_ [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 03:04:50 -!- NoorDextor_ [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has left #lisp 03:05:46 -!- kuwabara [n=Kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:06:11 kuwabara [n=Kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has joined #lisp 03:08:15 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:08:48 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:26 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:13:54 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 03:17:31 -!- O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-125-215.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 03:19:36 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-125-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:19:58 mattrepl- [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:19 alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:45 when one inspects a long string in slime, it might be preferable to simply print it, rather than listing the characters by index like any vector 03:21:17 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:22:00 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 03:22:20 -!- alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 03:23:38 daedra [n=simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has joined #lisp 03:23:57 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 03:24:39 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 03:25:55 Zhivago: Around? 03:26:07 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 03:33:02 for generating simple html pages, what'd you guys recommend? 03:33:10 Hunchentoot has links to cl-who and html-template 03:33:11 cl-who 03:33:44 Hmm, seems I have it already 03:34:08 Good morning. 03:34:20 beach: greetings 03:36:16 mornin' 03:36:23 avast 03:39:52 So how's code? 03:40:03 moi? 03:40:13 I just woke up. 03:40:57 you don't code in your sleep? 03:41:24 hefner: Nope. when I was a student, I solved math problems in my sleep, but I haven't done that for a while. 03:42:06 Solved? All I ever did was dream about doing them (stressfully), but never solving them. :-( 03:42:36 *hefner* blames cmucl's multiprocessing for that 03:44:33 I've woken up with solutions to DiffEQ problems before.. 03:44:49 Hmm.. 03:44:52 -!- daedra [n=simon@unaffiliated/daedra] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 03:45:11 I believe I just dreamt of women and kicking people.. back when I was a student. 03:45:18 I guess Imissed out on something :) 03:45:40 doesn't sound like it to me. 03:46:06 (kicking because I did a bit of ring fighting, not random kicking people on the street :) ) 03:46:18 Aww, heh heh 03:46:33 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:46:55 After playing with hunchentoot, I'm definitely not as afraid of web programming 03:47:04 It also has reinforced my love of lisp 03:47:10 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-125-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:47:21 Draggor: Excellent! 03:47:26 the stink of the web hasn't sullied it? 03:47:34 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 03:48:06 Don't ask me to make a gui for something, but web backend stuff is still okay with me 03:48:31 <_deepfire> Don't worry, there's always Internet Explorer behind the corner... 03:48:49 ...and the first thing to jump to my mind was hurting _deepfire 03:48:56 What ever happened to meme.b9.com? 03:49:20 Or ircbrowse.com. I miss the nice irc logs. 03:49:47 The Who: Excellent coding music 03:50:07 <_deepfire> these things tend to be pretty individual 03:50:11 I think I'm getting old, I find myself turning music off now whenever I need to concentrate 03:50:14 while using cl-who? 03:50:40 frank zappa will be suitable for hunchentoot and drakma 03:50:52 -!- bogonflux [n=bogonflu@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:51:29 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 03:51:46 rtoym: there is still tunes.org 03:51:56 heffner: yes *could* mean you're getting old. But would Mozart be a problem? 03:52:11 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-125-215.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:52:13 -!- mattrepl- [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Success] 03:52:27 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:52:55 JuanDaugherty: hard to say. I fear the temptation to change it to something else might be distracting. 03:53:19 beach: You mean http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/? I'm using that now, but ircbrowse was soo much prettier. 03:53:43 Hmm. I seem to have broken something with the sse2 build.... 03:53:59 rtoym: I see you have fallen into the traps of pretty, but useless, web-interfaces. Just wget all the ones from tunes.org and use grep. 03:54:53 But ircbrowse had other capabilities, didn't it? It's been a long time since I used it. 03:54:58 I suspect most ircbrowse usage is oinly concerned with the last few hours of logs 03:55:36 The total amount of space taken up by the #lisp logs from day 1 is 261Mbytes. 03:56:05 beach: I count 358 MB 03:56:09 oh? 03:56:42 maybe a bit more than that, now. my logs start at 00.11.29 but are not up to date. 03:56:56 And I can do interesting statistics such as "what percentage of nicks that ever joined #lisp never came back a second time" by just using basic Unix tools. 03:57:39 So, I have cl-who, how do I make with-html-output appear in cl-user? 03:58:00 just to be clear: there is nothing currently like the old ircbrowse logs for this channel, right? 03:58:14 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:58:22 hefner: you must have gotten the logs from elsewhere then, because Tunes has no logs from 00.11.?? 03:58:22 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 03:58:40 beach: they do, but the really old logs are archived in tarballs on some other page 03:58:50 ah, OK. 03:59:31 Is there a function which make symbol like '+ to sharp-quoted symbol like #'+ ?? 03:59:54 tomoyuki28jp: you are confused 04:00:03 beach: oh really? 04:00:36 tomoyuki28jp: type '(function foo) at your repl 04:00:40 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-125-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:12 tomoyuki28jp: there are no "sharp-quoted symbols". #'stuff is reader shorthad for (function stuff) 04:01:18 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:01:46 tomoyuki28jp: but if what you really want is to get a function from a symbol, use fdefinition. 04:02:12 clhs fdefinition 04:02:12 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm 04:02:24 beach: hefner: thanks for the info. I am actually making a macro which needs to add a sharp on a symbol. 04:02:50 tomoyuki28jp: you want the # character to be part of the symbol name? 04:04:08 tomoyuki28jp: then that's a very different story. #'stuff doesnt "add a sharp" to the symbol stuff. 04:04:47 why would he want to do that? 04:05:09 hefner: People here seem to want to do the strangest things. 04:05:20 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:05:37 such as using ?FFIs and use Lisp for Web programming. 04:05:42 that's true, but I think he wants to do (function stuff) 04:05:49 beach: hefner: I am creating the scheme's cut macro, and if the parameters end with <...> I need to apply the first symbol function to the rest parameters. 04:06:01 http://srfi.schemers.org/srfi-26/srfi-26.html 04:06:38 (cut list 1 <> 3 <...>) is the same as (lambda (x2 . xs) (apply list 1 x2 3 xs)) 04:06:56 (lambda (x2 &rest xs) (apply #'list 1 x2 3 xs)) in cl. 04:06:59 looks strange 04:07:19 seems logical to me. I've implemented something like that, minus the reader magic. 04:07:50 I am looking for a way to make 'list to #'list to do it. Does this make sence? 04:07:50 phil_s [n=chatzill@69-196-162-148.dsl.yaknet.ca] has joined #lisp 04:08:22 i just saw a job posting for a lisp developer at $7.50 / hour 04:08:23 tomoyuki28jp: (apply 'list ...) will work 04:09:22 *sigh* 04:09:26 why don't you let the user pass the function form they want? 04:10:27 pkhuong: Are you saying that to me? cut is just a syntax sugar of lambda. 04:11:04 stassats: yes, it worked. I was probably miss-understanding on something. thanks. 04:11:06 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 04:11:08 tomoyuki28jp: what happens when you want to use cut with a function you hold in a variable? 04:12:23 hefner: You mean this? (let ((x 3)) (cut list 1 x 3)) 04:12:50 tomoyuki28jp: i'm no expert, but I wouldn't use that, and would code it even less 04:13:01 no, more like (let ((x 3) (fn (something-that-returned-a-function))) (cut fn 1 x 3)) 04:13:14 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 04:13:15 tomoyuki28jp: no, he means (defun f (fun) ... (cut fun 1 <> 2) ..) 04:13:39 this is the argument against wrapping in #' automatically 04:14:16 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 04:18:29 so I created something like this. http://paste.lisp.org/display/70281 What do you guys think? 04:18:49 Okay, I'm trying to set up a form that sends a post parameter called "name". How do I actually make that happen? 04:20:31 hefner: uhmm, the code you gave me didn't work. 04:20:46 I made this really quick though. 04:21:03 congratulations I guess. 04:26:52 tomoyuki28jp: instead of (cond ((eq i '<>) ..) ...) you can write (case i (<> ..) ..) 04:27:22 stassats: oh yeah, thanks! 04:30:05 *sykopomp* wants a function/macro named 'cute' 04:30:15 <3 <3 <3! 04:31:36 You already have me, is that not enough? :( 04:31:55 *schme* spreads the cuteness. 04:31:58 tomoyuki28jp: what if the caller uses a variable named REST. 04:32:03 Now off to work, have a good day ladies and gents :) 04:32:16 schme: so long. 04:32:31 beach: oh yes, I should use gensym, right? 04:32:36 yes 04:32:44 beach: thanks for letting me know. 04:32:51 No problem. 04:33:12 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-50-125-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:34:31 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-50-124-24.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:38 I still agree with hefner and pkhuong that you should let the user pass any form that evaluates to a function. 04:34:44 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey` 04:37:43 when I played with this idea, I made it so that you could wrap a form around the equivalent of cut's <>, and the value in that position would be processed through the containing form 04:38:17 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 04:39:05 someday, perhaps I'll wed the idea with my postfix macro 04:40:24 RPN 04:40:25 :D 04:46:10 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-125-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:48:06 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 04:48:59 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:50:43 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 04:50:52 Anyone here familiar enough with the internal of Macsyma to know if it still uses Top Down Operator Precedence parsing for anything? 04:51:53 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:56:11 gigamonkey`: The comments in the parser says it uses that. 04:57:30 *hefner* wishes he could find a parsable definition of the algorithm 04:57:51 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 04:58:17 hefner: Of tdop? 04:58:50 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:59:06 yeah 05:00:23 And by parsable you mean "human understandable"? 05:00:40 in 100 words or less 05:01:07 The maxima parser seems to be reasonably self-contained and somewhat understandable. 05:01:33 as opposed to the Douglas Crockford approach of rambling on for several dozen pages walking through an implementation, without ever summarizing the underlying idea 05:01:33 frosty00014 [n=Frostysn@c-76-115-11-91.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:03:10 Basically, if I understand TDOP properly, top-down is used for statements and operator-precedence is used for expressions. 05:03:46 (I wonder only because I threw together an expression parser in javascript which I might describe using those same words, so I'm curious if it's a similar technique, and if it so, if there's a solution to the problem I had with the negate and exponentiation operators) 05:04:30 gigamonkey`: Hmm. I guess the answer is yes, maxima uses tdop to parse the maxima language. 05:04:43 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:08:20 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 05:09:18 gigamonkey`: Why did you want to know? 05:09:54 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 05:10:31 I was just reading the Pratt paper about it. 05:11:42 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:12:18 chandler_ [n=chandler@new.unmutual.info] has joined #lisp 05:12:46 -!- chandler_ is now known as Guest41380 05:14:40 -!- chandler [n=chandler@opendarwin/developer/chandler] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:15:25 hefner: 100 words is pretty compressed. I'm trying, just for grins. Give me a minute. 05:15:47 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:16:41 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 05:17:30 coffeemug [n=coffeemu@ool-45721928.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:44 hello 05:18:56 hello coffeemug 05:19:33 good morning! (midnight for us) 05:19:53 *Draggor* bangs head on keyboard 05:20:00 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1D4E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:20:30 segv [n=mb@p4FC1D6AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:23:02 does anyone hear use FFI on SBCL (via CFFI or otherwise?) 05:23:05 here 05:23:19 many people do. 05:24:44 trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-255-007.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:47 I'm curious if the following setup is asking for trouble: call a C function foo via FFI (and pass a callback as argument). Now foo starts a thread inside the C library and returns immediately. Some time later that C thread calls the callback function (that was passed to foo earlier). 05:26:19 calling a lisp callback from a thread started by C? 05:26:35 yes. I would imagine this is very illegal, but I'd like to make sure 05:26:47 I'm reasonably sure that won't work, but I'm not the guy to ask. 05:27:15 I suppose SBCL could take some global lock every time a callback is invoked 05:27:49 I get random crashes when I do that with messages like "gc inconsistency detected" 05:28:20 just wanted to get some information from people here if any are around 05:29:01 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-156.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:29:08 I thought the problem was more that things in the thread had to be set up in the way lisp expects, and probably the thread needs to be registered with the runtime as well. Where are our glorious SBCL hackers? 05:31:13 yeah, I would think that if a callback is called at a totally random time and it has some code inside that manipulates global lisp structures in any way (which is essentially impossible to avoid) it will 'cause all kinds of chaos 05:31:27 ebzzry__ [n=rmm@124.217.85.116] has joined #lisp 05:31:58 I'll redo this so that the thread is started with SBCL and report if the errors disappear 05:33:42 -!- ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.65.44] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:36:11 gigamonkey pasted "100 words (per wc -w) on TDOP" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70282 05:37:01 hefner: if that's too compressed, stay tuned to Planet Lisp. 05:37:47 gigamonkey`: is that pratt? 05:38:18 *drewc* missed the context, but scrolling back, it is indeed 05:38:51 gigamonkey`: that is probably in my top 5 papers 05:38:56 TDOP FTW! 05:39:26 Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 05:39:46 *drewc* keeps scrolling back ... 05:40:09 seems i missed a lot .. but Pratt is still the man, and TDOP is the bestiest 05:40:56 *drewc* scrolls further back 05:41:03 i missed the fun part :( 05:41:13 i use erc-truncate-mode and only have 100 or so lines of scrollback ;) 05:41:30 i should probably increase that... 05:41:36 jrockway: infinite scrollback if i wanted. :) 05:41:49 yeah 05:41:58 FSVO infinite 05:42:16 something doesn't sit well with me when i go on vacation for a week and return to be at line 1000023 of #perl :) 05:43:15 jrockway: 100 lines of scrollback in the client ... made that mistake meself 05:43:25 yeah 05:43:38 btw, i meant to ask earlier... does anyone here have a favorite object database? 05:43:56 seems like allegrocache is "the standard", but is non-free AFAICT 05:43:59 jrockway: yeah .. postgres 05:44:48 ORMs are a hack :) 05:45:04 jrockway: i did not say postgresql 05:45:32 gigamonkey`: interesting, but I'll have to vault the acm wall tomorrow and read the paper 05:45:56 hefner: are we still talking about TDOP? 05:46:03 and be we i mean you 05:46:09 drewc: yeah, we is. 05:46:40 hefner: if you hapeen to d/l the paper, email me a copy cause i lost mine in the great hd crash of 2006 05:46:56 i promise i wont tell the ACM police 05:47:09 (i love that paper) 05:47:29 (wish i loved it enough to back it up) 05:47:33 I sorta kinda get it, but I'd have to read an example worked out. I was expecting something more like "recursively divide the input string, choosing the operator with highest precedence.." 05:48:09 Yeah, except that's not how it works. 05:48:10 hefner: you read crawfords javascript interpretation? 05:48:21 *drewc* scrolls back again 05:48:25 gigamonkey`: well, sure. 05:48:32 hefner badmothing Crockford was what got me going on the 100-word challenge. 05:50:05 it's a similar idea, except that as you walk along you invoke some 'leds', and a 'right binding power' descends from the heavens at some point 05:50:58 i'm considering setting up a complete development environment remotely .. sbcl+swank & nfs-over-ssh .. only thing needed on the client is emacs+slime .. anyone tried something like that? .. i did test it quickly a long time ago, but had some trouble with paths etc. (this might have been something else than nfs though); backtraces referred to invalid path-names so code-lookup (the `v' key) didn't work 05:51:13 gigamonkey`: it sounds more bottom-up to me :) 05:51:24 Basically the initial right binding power is 0. Then infix ops reinvoke the parser with their own left binding power as the right binding power to read their right subtree. 05:52:01 Execpt right associative ops which pass one less than their own left binding power. 05:53:11 Yeah, I don't know about the directionality of it. 05:54:08 lnostdal: I did it once (using Allegro rather than SBCL but that shouldn't matter.) 05:54:24 Well, I didn't use NFS--I used tramp. 05:54:41 Not the snappiest thing in the world but it worked. 05:55:26 ok, yeah .. my worry is really the path-thing .. i'm hoping NFS will solve that as it is integrated at a low or os-level so should be hidden from emacs/slime etc. .. i hope 05:56:03 As long as the paths your Emacs sees are the same as the ones Lisp sees you should be fine. 05:56:17 And if they're not, there are hooks into SLIME for doing translation between the two. 05:56:42 oh, yes .. hm .. mount point etc. gotta be the same .. i'm not thinking clearly here 05:56:48 ok 05:57:03 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-152.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:59:02 drewc: do you have the power to look in the /tmp directory on my VPS? 06:00:36 gigamonkey`: yes-ish. I _can_ .. but i don't trust linux enough 06:01:05 You mean you might knock over my VPS or something if you tried? 06:01:53 something like that yeah ... i traded the ability to do that for raw speed for you... 06:02:32 i can proabably read your FS without breakiing things 06:02:51 probably ..... 06:03:34 ohnoes .. my hidden porn collection might be revealed 06:04:47 lnostdal: you have great taste!\ 06:04:53 lol 06:05:24 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:06:39 lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:08:12 -!- lemonodor_ [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:08:57 *drewc* finds out that nhl.ca is _not_ the home page for the national hockey league 06:11:51 ... and then my team lost anyway..... 06:12:18 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:12:32 you own a team? 06:13:03 beach: ya, but the suck and i'm looking for a buyer! 06:13:14 -!- cbrannon [n=user@ip68-12-115-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:13:21 sorry, I'm not interested. 06:14:24 beach: i don't blame you, 06:15:00 FWIW our football (soccer) team is #1 06:15:34 *drewc* apologizes for the O/T 06:23:11 -!- nik11 [n=Wmadjge@193.253.141.74] has quit [] 06:23:57 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:24:03 drewc: did you get my msg 06:24:13 coffeemug, hey. 06:24:42 gigamonkey`: Your book is expensive. :< 06:24:44 coffeemug, doing work on weblocks? 06:24:51 And good morning everyone! 06:24:52 So are all books these days though. 06:24:59 gigamonkey`: i did, and responded. 06:25:01 Quadrescence, it's worth it! 06:25:07 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 06:25:09 tic: I'm not saying it's not. 06:25:16 It's a good book! (or online it is) 06:25:42 Quadrescence: gigamonkey's book is cheap! 06:26:11 drewc, good one. 06:26:13 Quadrescence: i would charge you the price of PCL in 1/2 hour to teach what he does 06:26:35 drewc: wut 06:26:45 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has left #lisp 06:27:02 I'm not saying the cost wasn't worth his effort, or the cost isn't worth the information inside the book. 06:28:18 Quadrescence: what i'm saying is that my value as a programmer is worth 2 PCL's an hour. 06:28:41 *drewc* spends 1/2 hour a day on the toilet. 06:29:27 Quadrescence: Best coding book I've ever baught 06:29:58 It changed my usual method of trial and error (and mostly error) 06:31:16 *drewc* bought a number of copies of PCL to give away 06:31:29 :o 06:31:34 *gigamonkey`* likes drewc a lot. 06:31:36 I think one was given away at the Chicago Lisp workshop this summer 06:31:58 What's the SLIME magic to get it to show me the methods defined on a GF? 06:32:13 gigamonkey`: inspect the GF 06:32:42 M-x slime-inspect RET #'gf RET 06:34:58 drewc, buying up a bunch of PCLs to give away is an excellent idea! 06:35:21 grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has joined #lisp 06:37:19 drewc: thanks. 06:37:22 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:37:22 gigamonkey`, also, typing #'the-function in the repl .. then right-clicking (mouse, yay - but there is a keyboard shortcut for this also) and selecting `Inspect' in the context menu also works 06:37:23 hefner: you still here 06:38:04 i mean; the repl will return a # .. those things are inspectable via the mouse/keyboard in slime 06:38:30 almost like i lisp-machine .. uh, not that i have tried one of the "real" ones 06:38:33 like a* 06:39:31 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 06:40:14 maybe i have some slime contribs loaded btw. .. is this part of vanilla slime? 06:41:47 ah, C-c C-v TAB is the default keyboard shortcut 06:44:16 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 06:44:48 "The Common Lisp standard even goes so far as to specify the principal values and branch cuts for irrational and transcendental functions on the complex domain." 06:44:52 Interesting! :o 06:45:15 That was me right. I wish I understood what that meant. 06:45:38 (that was you, if you were pseudo-asking) 06:46:28 gigamonkey`: man .. was that you? you said that? 06:47:03 End of the section "Numbers" in chap. 10 06:47:13 and here i am buying people copies of the book! 06:47:41 I might have actually understood it when I wrote it but it sure didn't stick. 06:47:50 :D 06:47:57 Or maybe I just figured the people who'd care would understand. 06:48:52 gigamonkey`: It's basically saying that any implementation of CL should, for example, have the same value for the cube root of 3 06:49:09 err 06:49:18 cube root of -3, or -anything, for that matter 06:50:06 gigamonkey pasted "TDOP in < 100 words of Lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70284 06:51:36 minion: memo for hefner: See also "TDOP in < 100 words of Lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70284 06:51:36 Remembered. I'll tell hefner when he/she/it next speaks. 06:54:24 I'm sicked by how easy it would be to write a fast Fourier transform in lisp. 06:54:48 beach, tyrkisk peber: I cannot remember last time I saw it. I _think_ it's called "Turkish pepper", if I remember the wording on the package I bought on the Poland boat correctly. 06:55:35 gigamonkey`: if it were;t for that great hd crash i'd paste my ANSI CL port of CGOL for you. 06:56:15 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 06:56:30 Speaking of which. Are the hard drives underneath our VPSes backed up? Or are we completely on our own for backups? 06:57:45 tic: I see. Well it's neither Turkish nor pepper actually :) 06:57:57 gigamonkey`: you're on your own... it is RAID though, We, as a rule, don't your data. 06:58:31 gigamonkey`: You should add an appendix of functions to your book. :D 06:58:41 (functions, macros, etc) 06:58:56 gigamonkey`: however, we can give you some backup space. 06:59:02 So it's possible someday I'll get an email saying, your VPS went down in a big disk crash, here's the password to your shiny new VPS? 07:00:05 hefner: you will find a tarball of the student project (editor for Common Lisp) here: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/cled-src.tar.gz 07:00:30 gigamonkey`: in theory, yes... in practice, it would take a lightening strike. 07:00:48 Good. I'll ignore that possibility at least until C@W is out of my hands. 07:00:51 hefner: I wasn't their advisor on it (only the "client") so I haven't looked at the code very closely. 07:01:57 cl-who is rather annoying to work with 07:02:11 gigamonkey`: i personally think ignoring the idea is safe. however, if there is data you really really care about, i can offer you some space to rsync it to a different machine on a different continent. 07:02:40 drewc: I don't think so. Mostly my stuff there really lives on my machines at home. 07:02:51 gigamonkey`: perfect! 07:02:55 After C@W I'll think harder about whether that's actually true. 07:03:51 good morning 07:03:58 hello mvilleneuve 07:04:46 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 07:04:56 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 07:05:00 gigamonkey`: well, FWIW, a 'hosted by tech.coop" link from the PCL front page would afford you a full backup ;) 07:05:28 -!- frosty00014 [n=Frostysn@c-76-115-11-91.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:05:33 drewc: I'll keep that in mind. 07:06:24 yangsx1 [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 07:07:30 Draggor pasted "cl-who" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70285 07:07:43 So, for that, why do I need the print statement there? 07:07:51 If it's not there, it won't take the names of the players 07:10:44 Draggor: i'm not sure how cl-who works .. but just a quick glance begs the question ...what do you expect to happen in that mapcar? 07:11:42 Ah crap, I should've posted the loop version 07:11:52 To be honest, I have no idea how it works 07:12:13 I know that inside of any function, you need to have any translations happen behind an (htm) call 07:12:55 what I pasted does what I want it to, I just don't get why 07:13:28 Draggor: well, you are asking all html output to fo to *standard-output* 07:13:36 s/fo/gp 07:13:42 so/gp/go 07:13:59 so, PRINT outputs there as well. 07:14:12 good point 07:14:29 I need to browse cl-who 07:14:39 I don't want it writing to a stream, I just want to collect a giant string and return that 07:15:12 do that before you even think about outputting html 07:15:31 Yeah. Sorry for the dumb questions >.< 07:15:52 Draggor: no worries, that's what we're here for at this time of night! 07:16:28 Draggor: however, the yurpeans will be waking soon.. and they are crankier :) 07:17:05 *drewc* is going to watch mythbusters 07:17:08 heh, it's late, and I'm in finals, brain is fried 07:17:24 Wednesday FTW! 07:21:49 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 07:22:06 Meh, I'm just going to use xmls and do it myself 07:22:21 jlilly [n=jlilly@cpe-098-025-176-046.sc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:22:34 gigamonkey annotated #70284 with "Slightly less trivial example (> 100 words)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70284#1 07:33:09 beach, indeed it is not! 07:33:45 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.220.126] has quit [] 07:36:02 evening 07:42:12 -!- grkz [n=qsvans@pdpc/supporter/active/grkz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 07:42:51 evening. 07:44:12 i do not see trees in the wood i suppose: i am sure there is a built-in function for this construct (defun c-op (l ll) (loop for c in l for cc in ll (collect (funcall op c cc)))), can someone give me a hint? 07:45:56 i'm not good in loop, but are you looking for (mapcar op l ll)? 07:46:27 hello 07:46:29 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:46:33 manuel_: hi! 07:46:41 hi h4ns 07:49:00 H4ns: surely, /me obviously lacks coffeine 07:49:21 thanks. 07:49:48 trebor_home: so do i, and it seems i need to go outside and fine a real coffee. the coffee powder provided by the hotel is a joke 07:49:55 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:49:56 trebor_home: you've got an extra paren before the collect. 07:50:16 Though MAPCAR is probably the way to go here. 07:56:23 gigamonkey`: you are right, it was a no-paste. there had been no paren there in the original. i really wonder if i was sleeping when reading mapcar-spec 07:58:56 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.128] has joined #lisp 08:07:21 trebor_home, if it helps, I distinctly remember going through exactly the same situation 08:07:24 -!- wormil [n=wormil@c-76-110-240-129.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:07:45 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:08:20 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 08:08:37 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 08:18:34 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:21:33 -!- coffeemug [n=coffeemu@ool-45721928.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:26:58 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:28:01 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:28:57 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.126] has joined #lisp 08:29:34 bartiosze [n=user@ejf118.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:31:57 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 08:41:07 coffeemug [n=coffeemu@ool-45721928.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 08:41:51 hefner: the conjecture was correct - it was the C thread causing the problem. Starting the thread within SBCL and calling the C function in that thread solved the problem 08:43:43 -!- knobo` [n=user@cartman.nextra.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:44:55 -!- birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:45:46 -!- jolby [n=joel@c-67-168-78-193.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:46:00 birdsbite [n=mark@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 08:52:45 -!- yangsx1 [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:53:52 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 08:54:59 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:56 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:57:08 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:57:10 good morning 08:58:19 bonjour 08:58:42 hello spiaggia 09:01:52 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@58.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 09:02:55 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:04:35 -!- coffeemug [n=coffeemu@ool-45721928.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:06:00 hello spiaggia 09:07:07 H4ns1 [n=hans@70.91.193.41] has joined #lisp 09:07:33 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:07:58 hello lispers 09:10:19 -!- gigamonkey` [n=user@adsl-99-50-124-24.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:11:00 athos [n=philipp@p54B859BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:29 is there a way to format lisp code inside a @lisp texinfo document ? 09:20:18 matimago: Are you here? 09:20:28 kiuma: What do you mean with format? 09:21:51 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 09:21:59 tcr: indent 09:22:18 tcr or I have to do it manually ? 09:22:43 hm. (let ((a 0) (b 0)) (setf (values a b) 0) (incf (values a b) 1)) -> setf works - is there a multiple-places-incf, too? 09:23:42 -!- H4ns [n=hans@70.91.193.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:24:12 kiuma: @lisp is like 
09:25:30  trebor_home: Nope, gotta use two INCFs.
09:25:38  trebor_home: does setf really does what you want it to?
09:25:55  Here it sets b to NIL.
09:26:13  ups. rethinking - thanks.
09:26:33  If I want to do some gui-programming with Common LISP, what´s recomended?
09:26:55  minion: tell simonb about mcclim
09:26:57  simonb: direct your attention towards mcclim: McCLIM is Mike McDonald's Free and portable implementation of CLIM, the Common Lisp ueber-Graphics Toolkit and a Common Lisp Library. http://www.cliki.net/mcclim
09:27:34  simonb: there's bindings for things like GTK as well, but I keep hearing really wonderful things about the way McClim does the GUI thang.
09:29:35  tcr: yes?
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09:35:39  minion: sykopomp: Thanks, I will have al look at it.
09:35:40  it: please stop playing with me... i am not a toy
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09:38:05  matimago: In your reader.lisp, the syntax of *cd-constituent-invalid* should probably be +cs-constituent+, and not +cs-whitespace+, shouldn't it?
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09:46:54  tcr pasted "PRINT-OBJECT method addition to pjb's reader.lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70293
09:47:18  matimago: Feel free to incorporate this, or something in that spirit.
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10:14:14  Hi! Can you help me with this please? One hunchentoot page handler appends data to a list. Another handler reads the data. Do I need to write a locking mechanism in case the read happens while the write is still ongoing?
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10:20:33  ccm1: there are no general guarantees with respect to thread safety of common lisp data structures, so if you want to be safe, use a lock.
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10:22:11  H4ns: Thanks for the info; lock the concept or lock the object?
10:23:02  ccm1: depends on your application.  if you have no particular performance requirements, use only one lock around all your shared data structures.  that will greatly reduce the number of problems you may encounter.
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10:25:18  tcr: Probably.  I'll check it this evening.  Thanks.
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10:25:36  H4ns: Great that'll do, performance is not a big issue right now. Can you point me to information on how to implement a lock please?
10:25:38  matimago: I'll send a patch via email.
10:25:43  Thanks.
10:25:55  minion: bordeaux-threads
10:25:56  bordeaux-threads: Portable shared-state concurrency for Common Lisp Bordeaux-Threads is a library to write multi-threaded applications in a portable way. http://www.cliki.net/bordeaux-threads
10:26:01  ccm1: use that ^
10:26:32  ccm1: not terribly feature rich, but contains a locking primitive and you'll not need much more i guess.
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10:29:26  ccm1: a good strategy for hunchentoot is making all your handlers return strings and hold on to the lock.  you need to make sure that your handlers return fast (e.g. not send emails synchronously), though.  that way, you'll never have to worry about handler concurrency.
10:29:27  H4ns, minion: Simple is good. Do you know if a bordeaux lock will play well with hunchentoot created threads?
10:29:36  ccm1: yes.
10:29:56  H4ns: Perfect.
10:31:40  matimago: Sent.
10:32:08  H4ns: The strategy sounds good. Why strings?
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10:32:48  ccm1: well, ub8 arrays are fine, too.  the point is: do not let your handlers write to the http response stream, as that might block.
10:33:50  H4ns: So for use with cl-who, I would write to a dummy stream and use with-html-output-to-string
10:34:16  ccm1: that is a good approach
10:34:41  H4ns: Do you have some code that does what you just said?
10:36:05  ccm1: not directly - in my framework, i use a similar architecture, but my lock is on the database transaction level (all mutations go through the transaction layer).  my http handlers run un-locked.
10:36:13  ccm1: (they return strings, though)
10:37:21  H4ns: sounds like the same strategy i used with aranieda+serve-event ... minus the locks :)
10:37:36  ccm1: no threads, no cry!
10:37:47  oops, i meant drewc: no threads, no cry :)
10:38:02  no threads no cry! :)
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10:38:51  "but we _need_ threads, even perl has them, otherwise there will be no performance!"
10:38:59  oh, no threads -> cry!
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10:40:15  gah, i guess nobody has a xml serialization library that works like cxml's unparse, but generates properly indented xml?
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10:42:55  H4ns, more or less
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10:43:23  kiuma: i want with-element, with-element*, with-attribute and text.
10:43:28  H4ns: Is yours a framework you use privately, or is it published as a project?
10:43:35  ccm1: http://bknr.net/
10:44:14  ccm1: something in between.  i'd love to architect and document everything properly, but economic constraints make it infeasible :)
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10:45:56  H4ns, I don't know if it can be of any help but claw-html can print well formed/indented xml
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10:46:16  H4ns, you can extract what you need http://common-lisp.net/websvn/filedetails.php?repname=claw&path=%2Ftrunk%2Fmain%2Fclaw-html%2Fsrc%2Ftags.lisp&rev=0&sc=0
10:46:17  kiuma: can you point me to the file i want to look at?
10:46:18  H4ns: Ah, already had a glance at it research persistence...
10:46:27  kiuma: ah, thanks.
10:46:31  *researching persistence
10:47:39  H4ns, with the browser search for 'indent' occurrences
10:48:04  kiuma: uh.  erm.  thank you, but i guess it'll be easier to just start from scratch than to extract what i require from that file.
10:49:22  H4ns, one day I can transform the page to a xml formatter, it should be relatively easy
10:49:45  kiuma: yeah.  consider that WHEN has an implicit PROGN for its body.
10:50:49  H4ns, thx for pointing it, there is some cleanup I have to do :)
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10:51:55  H4ns, anyway the page can format the code like the one you can see at www.wingstech.it/claw/demo (sorry for slow connection)
10:52:48  this is html but xhtml can be done too
10:53:01  kiuma: i believe that.  the issue is that i need a cxml compatible package, as my belief that one day cxml will be perfect, is undestructable!
10:53:53 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-2-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp
10:53:58  yes, I'm planning to use cxml too
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11:01:01  how is dojo working out for you btw. kiuma ? (i'm still just (mostly) using plain old html tags + dom-events etc. for my stuff)
11:01:43 *lichtblau* would implement his great indentation plan if he had time
11:01:57  lichtblau: :)
11:02:48  BTW, any Brussels-based lispers up for a beer next week?
11:03:15  lnostdal, very well
11:03:42  maybe the best web2 framework around
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11:04:04  lnostdal, it also have some part with functional programming
11:04:09  *has
11:04:48  i heard that jquery is the cool now
11:05:19  cool but not as much as dojo, that is more complete
11:05:22  i'm just interested in the "widget" stuff really .. i guess that part is called dijit
11:05:53  correct, thought you should give a look to dojox too
11:06:07  jquery lacks widgets .. the low-level stuff dealing with dom; html, attributes, events, css etc. is quite good -- but no widgets
11:06:34  i see.
11:06:45  not deferred thigs too
11:07:11  dang
11:07:25  there are lots of widgets for jquery afaik, they're just not part of the core library
11:07:41  lichtblau: writing a properly indenting xml serializer is not _that_ trivial, i must agree.
11:08:22  eevar, with dojo you can put widgets in your code without a line of js
11:08:27  eeva2, as plugins, yes -- but the stuff integrated with the "official" jquery core is lacking imho
11:08:36  H4ns, :)
11:08:37 *H4ns* ponders whether an indenter would be easier to write
11:09:04 <_deepfire> H4ns, what is the problem with it? it does not map well into pprint-logical-block?
11:09:18  If you are not in hurry, I could write one, getting from the previous code
11:09:51  _deepfire: i have not considered pprint-logical-block.  is that described somewhere?
11:10:01  kiuma: i am in a hurry :)
11:10:04 <_deepfire> H4ns, it's part of CL, yes
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11:10:35 <_deepfire> makes indented printing of nested structures a breeze
11:10:47  so I can't help, I'm doing a very boring (but paid) java project :S
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11:11:05  kiuma: no worries, i'm just thinking aloud.
11:11:17  _deepfire: hm.  the spec is relatively theoretic about it :)
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11:13:29 <_deepfire> H4ns, the idea is that pprint-newline/terpri/~% inside pp-l-b reset to the current context's column, not to the beginning of line
11:14:14  _deepfire: ah, ok - i'm not sure if that will help much because  needs to be considered, too.
11:14:47 *H4ns* decides that post processing unformatted xml is the easiest way to make progress now.
11:14:54 <_deepfire> H4ns, it doesn't consider semantics, it's just a tool.
11:15:23  lichtblau pasted "cxml/chtml indentation strategy (in german, sorry about that)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70296
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11:16:08  ^ excerpt from an old mail to H4ns, for any aspiring cxml hackers who happen to speak german and want to work on indentation
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11:16:54  lichtblau: the last paragraph seems to indicate that you think a post processor would be the way to go, too.
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11:19:17  currently it's [application] --SAX--> [sink] --write-sequence--> [stream]
11:19:26  indentation happens in the [sink]
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11:19:34  I'm contemplating doing it like this:
11:19:48  currently it's [application] --SAX--> [indentation-handler] --SAX--> [sink] --write-sequence--> [stream]
11:20:21  a tiny bit of indentation would happen in the [sink], but the hard work would be done by the indentation-handler
11:20:50  lichtblau: ok, understood.
11:21:34  not a final decision though, just a thought.  Getting the actual intentation modes right is more important than such architectural considerations are.
11:22:25 -!- luis changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language: , . common-lisp.net back in service, please email problems to admin@common-lisp.net. New: trivial-features 0.4, SBCL 1.0.22, CFFI 0.10.3, series 2.2.10, trivial-garbage 0.17, usocket 0.4.0, ABCL 0.0.11
11:22:33  lichtblau: yes - and if one looks at implementing what the standards say, it is a lot of work.  i guess i will settle for an external invocation of xmllint --format now and turn to working on the actual application :)
11:23:23  lichtblau: re Brussels, not me, but you should try to contact lieven and pvaneynd
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11:27:00  Hi people! I've read the first half of the PCL book. Now I'd like to write a ``useful'' program, to make sure I've grasped the language's philosophy. Any ideas?
11:28:09  "useful" is in the eye of the beholder, choose something that's meaningful to you
11:28:17  Beket: implement proper indentation in cmxl! :)
11:28:58  useful = something that makes me gain money
11:29:14  kiuma: and you are in #lisp?
11:29:40  hehe :)
11:29:47  maybe he graduated from #haskell
11:29:57  lol
11:30:22  H4ns, do you mind the difference from  and  ?
11:30:24  Beket: write me a fibonacci
11:30:34  kiuma: certainly.  i want 
11:30:40  It's mission-critical for me, but I haven't had the time.
11:31:04  kiuma: forget it, xmllint will do just fine for the moment.
11:31:11  ok
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11:34:15  H4ns, I'll do just for fun, between a deployment and another :)
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11:38:45  Beket: What domain would be interesting to you?  Graphics, Sound, Web, Compilers, Operating Systems, ...?
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11:40:57  spiaggia: I am a student of physics, so something related to science in general would be nice. Thanks for bothering. I am stumbling through lisp sites in the web to get some ideas.
11:41:54  Beket: you might want to talk to arbscht_ then.
11:42:18  Beket: he is also in Physics, and has some ideas on how to apply Lisp in this domain.
11:42:40  Thanks:)
11:42:52  Beket: an early lisp project that I found interested was a routine for numerical integration
11:43:28  Beket: how about a program to compute outputs of physical models from their inputs? depending on the models you choose, this can be either very simple or very involved
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11:45:30  locklace: thanks, I'll look into it
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11:51:32  I'm looking for CL benchmarks. What's out there besides cl-bench?
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12:28:22  luis: i guess there is http://www.cl-user.net/asp/libs/14669
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12:32:21  locklace: AFAICT, that uses cl-bench, right?
12:32:55  antifuchs: HTTP access to your git repos is broken, btw.
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12:33:45  luis: could be. doesn't seem like there's that much out there, somewhat surprisingly
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12:37:02  spiaggia: can I commission you to design a couple (well, 10) glyphs for gsharp?
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12:39:00  luis: you've probably seen this too, http://www.cons.org/cmucl/benchmarks/, not sure if it's just another edition of the same thing
12:39:24  Xof: Maybe so.
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12:39:41  Xof: How do I know what they are supposed to look like?
12:40:02  there will probably be an e-mail to gsharp-devel in a little while, but... one of my colleagues is working on a couple of gsharp features, one of which is time signatures
12:40:32  so we need the glyphs 0 to 9, with a height of two staff-steps
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12:40:59  Oh, OK.  That should be easy enough.
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12:42:43  locklace: yeah, that looks like cl-bench as well
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12:45:34  luis: i guess there is really just one prototypical lisp benchmark suite, and we're caught in an endless slow-motion loop of doomed recapitulation ;)
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12:47:56  luis: there's a draw-text benchmark in mcclim's demodemo
12:48:00  probably not what you're looking for
12:48:14  there might also be some mildly interesting clos benchmarks that aren't in cl-bench in a PCL distribution somewhere
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12:49:24  Xof: I'm looking for GC-intensive stuff, doing something with McCLIM might be interesting, not sure.
12:50:37 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes
12:50:57  the mcclim thing is probably only gc-intensive by accident
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12:51:15  it was really testing raw clx / RENDER / cairo
12:51:27  it is often recommended to always benchmark real applications.  Not sure what those would be for lisp.  Hunchentoot perhaps.
12:51:42  if you're lucky, those application are also gc-intensive "by accident"
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12:53:52  and I'm sure many here would have their own very biased opinion of which applications or libraries would be a good benchmark.
12:54:21  for example, there are XSLT benchmarks that you could run in xuriella :-).  I'm sure they'd cons like mad.
12:54:39  lichtblau: sounds good!
12:59:04  : david@radon:~/src/XSLTMark; time xsltproc identity.xsl db1000.xml >dummy
12:59:05  real    0m0.041s
12:59:19  : david@radon:~/src/XSLTMark; time clbuild run xuriella --output dummy identity.xsl db1000.xml
12:59:24  real    0m1.725s
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12:59:55  What I'm trying to say is: Yes, in all likelihood that does something CPU intensive with the lisp.... -:(
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13:01:43  probably a better bet than hunchentoot or clim, as in those cases you're also measuring stream /socket speed, which is probably not what you want
13:01:59  (it seems to vary a surprising amount between impls)
13:02:01  stream speed is interesting.
13:02:17  lichtblau: maybe interesting to (1) change the output to /dev/null and (2) measure the contribution of startup time?
13:03:05  rsynnott: well, if I just measure, say, GC pause times, then I don't really care how slow sockets are.
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13:04:10  locklace: ~ 300 ms startup overhead that could perhaps be optimized away, so still terrible.  And writing such a small file is just noise, whether to /dev/null or not.
13:05:31  pause times?
13:05:36  ok, wasn't sure how much i/o was involved
13:05:41  do modern GCs necessarily cause pauses at all?
13:06:05  rsynnott: sure.
13:06:08  micropauses, certainly. :)
13:06:27  rsynnott: i would be dancing in the streets if they didn't
13:11:09  lichtblau: it's proving quite hard to find XSLTMark, do you know where I can get it?
13:11:37 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit []
13:12:28  not sure, but I could make a tarball for you if you're really interested in trying this
13:12:43  Which Lisps are you trying to benchmark?
13:13:18  just SBCL
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13:14:57  locklace, I suppose real-time garbage collectors don't qualify as not causing distinct pauses, or else you'd be dancing already?
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13:15:02  lichtblau: yeah, if you could send me a tarball that'd be great.
13:15:29  ah, found it: svn co http://svn.gnome.org/svn/libxslt/trunk/tests/XSLTMark
13:15:39  ah, great. Thanks.
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13:22:42  they obviously still pause, just put an upper bound on the time. also show me an industrial-strength language with full support for realtime gc (sun's java tweaking doesn't count)
13:23:55  locklace: IBM's WebSphere JVM has one, I believe.
13:24:46  g'day
13:24:58  it uses "IBM's Ahead-of-Time (AOT) compilation and linking technology" as well. Gotta love those buzzwords!
13:24:58  Hmmm..
13:25:04  Why do they have to pause?
13:25:30  what, a step beyone JIT? :)
13:25:48  my roommates are sleeping and course registration opens in 5 minutes
13:25:58  wrong channel.
13:25:59  syamajala: So go register.
13:26:18  rsynnott: it lets you compile your code before you run it, impressive no?
13:26:38  ah, revolutionary!
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13:31:02  schme_: they pause because it's easier for the GC to do its job if the user program is not concurrently messing with memory.
13:31:40  luis: Well of course it's easier to write the code, ya.
13:34:01  is there a non-destructive #'replace?
13:34:49  (replace (copy-seq seq1) seq2)
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13:34:55  etate: There is the one where you wrap copy-seq and replace together :)
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13:35:25  schme_: lol, not exactly what i'm looking for :)
13:35:39  etate: Then you're out of luck.
13:35:42  schme_: looking for side effect free fn
13:35:54  schme_: really, theres no non-destructive replace?
13:35:58  clhs substitute
13:35:58  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sbs_s.htm
13:36:04  hoh
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13:36:51  it's not the same, though
13:36:56  it's not really the same though, so there's also an nsubstitute
13:36:56  locklace: it doesn't look the same
13:37:24  ye, nsubstitute is destructive though
13:37:37  i'm looking for an equivalent replace which is non-destructive
13:37:39  etate: why do you need a "built in" function?  i.e., why don't you just write something that combines copy-seq and replace in the way you require?
13:37:53  etate: (knowing that there is no "built in" function to do it)
13:37:53  H4ns: because i'm trying to write shortest LOC possible for this program
13:38:06  etate: So put it all on one line.
13:38:15  schme_: ahh but then its not elegant
13:38:29  Well...
13:38:52  etate, is (replace (copy-seq ...) ...) that much uglier than just (replace ...) if you don't want the extra two lines of the defun?
13:38:54  I'd make an argument for trying to write the shortest LOC not being elegant in the first place, but that will have to be some other time :)
13:39:08 *schme_* heads off.
13:39:51  tic: no, i didn't realise you could write it like that :)
13:40:00  (and get away with not having to write an extra line
13:40:01  )
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13:51:14  I just cant get the asdf-install to work, how do I install it properly? Cant find any good guide at all.
13:51:45  simonb: which lisp implementation?
13:52:12  rsynnott: yes, one step beyond, but they're all walking in circles.
13:52:13  Allegro Common Lisp.
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13:53:34  simonb: did you try loading and compiling the asd file?
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13:53:38  Like RISC (the first computers were) then they evolved into CISC when we could put the silicium, then they evolved RISC to better optimize them, and now RICS processors are as complex if not more than old CISCs.  Well, we did compilation before running, then compilation JIT, now compilation AOT, it's all the same circle.
13:53:45  simonb: did you see http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf-install/tutorial/ ?
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13:56:34  locklace: found http://common-lisp.net/project/asdf-install/tutorial/setup.html now, thanks.
13:56:54  etate: Compiling the asd file?
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13:57:41  simonb: yeah, i got it working on allegro by load-compiling the asd file afair, found in the asdf-install dir
13:58:06  simonb: there are additional dependencies though, so checkout the tutorial locklace pointed you to
13:58:29  simonb: it looks intimidating, but you can basically skim read it
13:58:58  matimago: in theory, there's a lot to be said for pre-run compilation of byte code to native code
13:59:05  (I assume that's what IBM are doing)
13:59:16  etate: OK, Im on it now. See if its working.
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14:15:37  rsynnott: that's something that Xenix and other tried to do in the late 80's beginning 90's, defining a virtual ABI for unix systems, and have the installer generate native code and do the link-edit.
14:16:07  it's more or less what IBM have been doing for a long time with some of their systems, too, I believe
14:16:31  if it became commonplace it could break the x86's hold on the market, which could only be a good thing
14:16:59  though I wonder what performance is like as compared to a direct native compiler
14:17:06  The thing is that nowadays that we have again opensource software, you can just compile it. There's not much need half-compiling it, delivering some vm code, and finally finish the compilation.  Unless you're dealing with migrating code, that is.
14:17:44  rsynnott: for most programming languages, performance might even be better, if you intrate the native code generation with the link phase.
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14:19:54  library function inlining?
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14:34:28  morning, #lisp.  anything new lately?
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14:39:46  kreuter: not benchmarks
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14:42:42  I'm wonder how people generally enable reader macros in their systems.  Like, where do you put the enable-reader-macro call?
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14:43:23  dlowe: i put them into every file that uses the reader macro
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14:44:40  H4ns: just in case the read table changed?  It has the advantage of being sure to work, I guess...
14:45:12  and keeps working if you change compile order, etc
14:45:20  dlowe: i like it both because it works and it documents that the file uses a reader macro.
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14:45:46  dlowe: no. it's to make sure that the changes to the read table are file-local
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14:47:26  dlowe: here's KMP's take on it: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/41e2a5dffa720f42
14:47:41  LOAD and COMPILE-FILE bind *READTABLE*, don't they?
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14:47:43  dlowe: IIRC, tcr has such a macro somewhere
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14:57:45  cmm: that's what the spec says
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14:58:44  wouldn't that mean, though, that you can't affect the "standard" readtable except via the repl?
14:58:52  it's sort of annoying if you want to set up a custom readtable for the repl ... yes
14:59:15  ok, I think I've got a grasp on it. Thanks.
14:59:44  well, you can modify it, but you can't replace it
14:59:55  you could construct a custom readtable in one file, and then assign *readtable* in the top of each file that you want to use that readtable.
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15:04:39  oh, that's what KMP says to do.
15:05:42  if you're going to put things at the top of the file, might as well make it explicit
15:06:41  what's the "it" in that sentence?
15:06:54  the putting
15:07:06  should have said "them" I guess
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15:33:34  Everytime I need some classical data structure I find it in cl-containers and it doesn't take long to figure out that it's still not ASDF-installable.
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15:37:37  Lisa >= NxBRE; we gotta hype more lisp stuff :-S
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15:39:02  vy: why isn't it?
15:39:41  (I mean, where does it fail?
15:39:44  )
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15:40:40  sellout: don't recognize component type DOCUDOWN-SOURCE
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15:42:30  OTOH, see the ASDF tarball of cl-containers. No doubt that Gary King is a Lisp wizard compared to me, but file hiearchy of the tarball just suckz.
15:42:59  vy: it's just a missing dependency
15:43:29  kreuter: I don't think DOCUDOWN-SOURCE is the only one.
15:43:38  dependency in a sense of the word different from a :depends-on ASDF clause
15:43:46  okay, it's just several missing dependencies.
15:44:13  it's an .asd file using a component class not defined in that asd file.  He'd have to call asdf:operate at the top of the .asd file to make that work
15:44:42  kreuter: We should be thankful that he doesn't make us to type LOAD for every single file.
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15:48:04  vy: you could look at this as an opportunity to figure out how to fix cl-containers
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15:49:23  Actually, I do. (See avl-tree, bk-tree, etc.)
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15:53:51  ok
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16:17:36  clhs fdefenition
16:17:36  Sorry, I couldn't find anything for fdefenition.
16:17:52  clhs fdefinition
16:17:52  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm
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16:25:34  How do you "prematurely return a value in a function?
16:25:40  "prematurely" *
16:25:44  Quadrescence: RETURN-FROM
16:25:45  return-from
16:25:47  clhs return-from
16:25:47  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/s_ret_fr.htm
16:25:57  Hum, I looked that up. better look again.
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16:26:28  Quadrescence: note that the body of a DEFUN bodies is implicitly surrounded in a block whose name is the function name.
16:26:30  Ah, yep, thanks.
16:26:41  s/bodies//
16:26:57  but most of the time you don't need it, even if you think you do
16:27:34  that's a matter of taste, I think.
16:27:53  less confusing if it's avoided, usually
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16:28:48  (defun foo (x) (unless (cromulentp x) (return-from foo)) ) has the virtue of not indenting  as much as it would be inside an IF or COND.
16:29:03  I don't want to use it. Maybe one of you has a better idea. I want to check if a list passed into a function of length N has the integers [0, N-1] in it. Return `T' if yes, `NIL' otherwise.
16:29:18  I was going to try to use a DOTIMES loop.
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16:29:38  that's a reasonable place to use RETURN, since you can exit as soon as something isn't right.
16:29:52  if you use loop, it'll let you escape early with while
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16:32:05  Quadrescence: something like (defun good-p (x n) (subsetp (loop for i to n (collect i)) x))
16:32:24  Quadrescence: (defun check (li) (let ((n (1- (length li)))) (every (lambda (x) (<= 0 x n)) li)))
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16:33:23  Oh, you mean each of them!
16:35:35  Quadrescence: as you can see, there are a few different ways to do it.
16:35:42  kreuter: Yeah. :o
16:35:56  Quadrescence: (defun check (li) (loop :with n = (1- (length li)) :with bits = (make-array (1+ n) :initial-element 0 :element-type 'bit) :for i :in li :do (setf (aref bits (if (<= 0 i n) i (return-from check nil))) 1) :finally (return (every (function plusp) bits))))
16:36:04  holy moley.
16:36:11  matimago: O_O
16:36:13  I suggest doing whatever seems reasonable.
16:36:27  O(n) in time and space.
16:36:31  haha
16:36:56  I'd probably do it a bit LOOPier.
16:37:00  You could do it in O(1) in space and O(n*log(n)) in time.
16:37:52  hi
16:37:53  matimago: or O(n) space and time.
16:37:57  If you had other constraints, you could do it in O(n) in time and O(1) in space.  For example if you know that there are no duplicates, and no negative numbers, then you sum them and check its n*(n-1)/2
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16:38:21  pkhuong: indeed, like for example, how I did it above.
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16:39:04  i have a mcclim problem: I want to define commands with gestures, that apply to only one pane. I can't see how this can be done... Any CLIM specialists around?
16:39:04  matimago: Umm... You can still get O(n) time and O(1) space even without the no-negative-numbers constraint.
16:39:23  Since you can validate that one in O(n) time anyway.
16:39:26  Well, yes, checking for positive numbers.
16:39:30  Yep.
16:39:33  matimago: sorting is probably actually lg n space ;)
16:39:44  pkhuong: there are in-place sorts.
16:39:46  if the list can contain arbitrary things, you should probably check that each element is an integer before using them as array indices, however.
16:39:56  matimago: activation records.
16:39:58  pkhuong: but right, we must take into account the stack.
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16:41:50  Hello!  I am trying to install a package, and I ran into the situation where it was written in a time before CFFI obsoleted the :translate-p key.  My offending line is:  (defctype :interpreter :pointer :translate-p nil)   I am sure half the fix here for me is to change that to (defctype :interpreter :pointer), but how do I honor the :translate-p nil part?  Online documentation has not helped (perldoc.org still thinks :translate-p is valid, but my versio
16:42:17  the saddest thing about lisp : I _must_ code something in java... sorting a list is like torture
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16:42:33  my eyes! bleeding eyes ;_;
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16:43:19  newlisper: can you find the old version of CFFI and doc? To see what translate-p meant.
16:43:21  java.util.Collections.sort.
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16:44:40  pkhuong: there is no clean way to pass it how the list should be sorted
16:45:45  http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.cffi.devel/1029 -- that has a clue, that it was there to be an optimization that is no longer necessary; I am not 100% convinced yet.  I will keep looking.  Thanks.
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16:47:30  madnificent: what do you mean, clean way how the list should be sorted?
16:47:33  sure, pass an anonymous inner Comparator. new Comparator () { public compare (T o1, T o2) { ...} }.
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16:47:44  but this is getting OT. Just read the spec or a good manual.
16:48:17  demmeln: no clim user around? :-/
16:49:20  pkhuong: it feels bloody ugly vs (sort contracts 'before :key 'date)
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16:49:32  pkhuong: yeah OT, my bad
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16:55:15  madnificent: well, I assume it uses a method of the objects in the array to compare them no?
16:55:38 -!- vorian is now known as stevie
16:56:38  madnificent: then you can define a wrapper class with its own compare method, map the original sequence to the wrapped objects, have them sorted, and unwrap the result.
16:56:54  of course it's a one-liner in lisp, but it may take more space in java.
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16:58:47  But once the wrapper written, the sort invocation may be quite clear and abstract.
17:00:03  matimago: it could at least be somewhat clearer.  I've created getContractsSortedByDate( company ) for now...  The internals are still dirty, but that's the best I can do for now I guess
17:00:30  Yes, just hide the uglyness under a rag.
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17:21:32  hey hefner
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17:23:30  the wizard book is probably not a suitable intro to lisp, is it?
17:23:56  it's meant as an introductory book, but more to programming in general than lisp or scheme.
17:24:12  Is that SICP?
17:24:12  o
17:24:20  gigamonkey`, yes
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17:25:46  Then, what pkhuong said.
17:26:23  There are, as it turns out, other books that are more directly intended to introduce the reader to Common Lisp.
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17:28:02  gigamonkey`, CLtL?
17:28:25 arwed [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp
17:28:30  practical common lisp
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17:31:39  stassats`'s suggestion was the one I was thinking of. ;-)
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17:31:53  Not Little Lisper? :>
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17:39:03  Evenin'
17:40:37  heya
17:40:39  Evening.
17:40:48  How's things, tic?
17:41:00  schme_, I'm trying to find old eyebrows.
17:41:00  and how's things, gigamonkey` ?
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17:41:11  old eyebrows... ?
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17:41:58  Found 'em.
17:42:01  schme_, and you?
17:43:16  Eating pills and trying to remember what I was doing with mah code :)
17:43:28  Less pills, more code!
17:43:45  Nah. They're good :)
17:43:51  Hrm.
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17:44:47  Oh yes. the refactoring of the database stuff :S
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17:45:22 -!- stevie is now known as vorian
17:45:25  tic: You wouldn't happen to have that there livsmedelsverket csv thingie converted to a sql thingie? :)
17:45:52  schme_, I know how to do it. Does that count? ;)
17:46:04  schme_: things are preetty good.
17:46:30  tic: That's good knowledge!
17:47:14  tic: My idea is to read it into postgresql, dump it, and read it into sqlite. I just don't *want* to do that. Last time I tried something like it I had to wait for 13 hrs for sqlite to get done.
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17:49:56  schme_, yes, that sounds like un-fun.  do you want a bunch of SQL INSERT statements?
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17:50:11  Well that's what I had last time.
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17:50:27  But ya, I can't think of any other way to get it into sqlite.
17:50:33  can't be too hard to create given a bunch of lines in a CVS file?
17:50:42  Oh, I see your problem.
17:50:51  can't you interface w/ sqlite directly through FFI?
17:51:11  How do you mean?
17:51:26  I have no problem interfacing with sqlite at all. I just want to have the data in a sqlite database.
17:51:35  Without having to wait for sqlite to read all the inserts ;)
17:51:58   stassats`'s suggestion was the one I was thinking of. ;-)
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17:52:10  gigamonkey`, you're the author? :>
17:52:12  so it's slow doing it with sqlite even when you call whatever function sqlite uses to stuff data to itself?
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17:52:48  VImtermute: yes.
17:52:56  did I see somebody say they were writing a CL interface for tokyo cabinet in here the other day?
17:53:02  That's why it comes readily to mind.
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17:53:21  gigamonkey`, :)
17:53:31  Fade: I saw someone suggesting to someone else that they should.
17:53:32  oops
17:53:38  ahh
17:53:42  *eat time
17:53:49  But maybe someone got inspired?
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17:54:01  kind of a weird project, tc
17:54:13  they have ruby and lua interfaces but none for python
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17:58:17  on sbcl  (stream-write-char *standard-output* #\Newline) wont work.. how to do it ?
17:58:51  How about (write-char #
17:58:53  bah
17:59:00  (write-char #\Newline *standard-output*)
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18:00:40  terpri?
18:02:26  im trying to explore that sbcl specific function.. cant event find where it is defined :(
18:02:59 esdentem [n=esden@91-67-156-166-dynip.superkabel.de] has joined #lisp
18:03:51  lhz: Are ya using slime?
18:04:04  schme: not a regular user, but yes
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18:04:27  lhz: Just hit M-. on it, it should give you where it is.
18:04:45 matley- [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp
18:05:06  are these two forms compatible: (declaim (ftype (function * *) stream-write-char)) (defgeneric stream-write-char ...) ?
18:05:40 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
18:05:52  ,q
18:06:07  .... grr
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18:08:14  lhz: Looks so to me :)
18:08:18  lhz: I imagine that the reason why stream-write-char doesn't work on your current *standard-output* is that *standard-output* is currently an internal stream type such as an fd-stream, and not a gray stream (as stream-write-char is defined as part of the gray streams extension).
18:08:27 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
18:09:13  (write-line ...) end up calling stream-write-char
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18:10:20  lhz: It seems to me that you find the generic function stream-write-char defined in gray-streams.lisp :)
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18:10:39  schme: i've found that to, but not any defmethods..
18:11:02  'hello
18:11:06  Oh I see.
18:11:20  lhz: I have some in my image right now here. some from mcclim, one from swank.
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18:14:18  ok.. I get it.. sbcl shouldn't be reaching for stream-write-char..
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18:53:46  Hi
18:53:58  Hello.
18:54:00  is there a way to convert a character into a bit-array ?
18:54:10  (in common lisp)
18:54:41  CHAR-CODE will get you to an integer.
18:54:58  Which you can then use as a kind of bit array. Or you could then convert it to an actual bit array.
18:55:33  Assuming that's the kind of bit array you mean. As opposed to a bit map of a glyph of the character.
18:55:34 antgreen [n=green@localhost.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp
18:55:48  and how can I convert the integer ?
18:56:56  logbitp, for example.
18:57:04  That I think you might have to roll yourself, with ash, etc.
18:57:09  ok
18:57:24  thanks
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19:03:34  in theory, an implementation could let you construct a displaced array with some unsigned-byte element-type and whose target array was a bit vector, and let you do nifty things with that, but I don't think any do.
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19:04:49  kreuter: well, if you're willing to go there, an implementation can be coerced into reinterpreting an array's bits as another specialised type :\
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19:05:14  gigamonkey pasted "integer->bits" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70317
19:06:00  pkhuong: sure, sure.
19:06:42 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp
19:07:09  I sorta like the idea of using strangely displaced arrays for that purpose, though, since that's a space that's already in the language.
19:07:37 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp
19:07:43  Okay, how about just using sap-ref-N (vector-data-sap ...) to set the bits in a bit-vector?
19:08:53  sure, that works too.
19:08:58  acieroid: the other thing to ask is, do you really need a bit vector? Depends what you're doing with it.
19:09:24  I'm doing XOR operations
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19:10:22  Which, typically, you'd do on an integer, rather than an actual bit-vector object.
19:10:31  you can xor integers together. But if they are bignums that might imply a fair bit of consing. With true bit vectors you can destructively put the result into an existing vector.
19:10:43  ok
19:11:01  If they're based on char-codes, though, they are unlikely to be bignums.
19:11:07  Good point.
19:11:29  hum, and how can I xor integers ?
19:11:40  clhs logxor
19:11:40  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_logand.htm
19:11:44  ok
19:11:47  hmm... what should arithmetical shifts do on bignums? are they the same as logical shifts there?
19:11:48 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp
19:12:14  Hun: What are these "logical" shifts of which you speak?
19:12:36  logical just look at the bits. arithmetical keep the msb to preserve sign
19:12:58  You realize that common lisp doesn't -have- any "logical" shift functions, then?
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19:13:19  nyef: %vector-raw-bits (:
19:13:31  i know. i just want to do arithmetical shifts in a 16bit signed space pretty fast (embedded vm)
19:13:52  pkhuong: Probably a couple different accessors, then, since I know I saw a vector-data-sap, or maybe %vector-data-sap around.
19:14:03  the fixnums are 16 bit, therefor the standard arithmetical shifts perform as logical shifts. which is a bit backwards :)
19:14:43  Hun: For virtual machine emulation, I find that SBCL's modular arithmetic is sufficient.
19:15:39  nyef: do you mean just using MOD or is there some fancy SBCL-specific modular arithmetic foo?
19:15:42  I just have a couple functions to sign-extend an integer...
19:16:22  gigamonkey: It's actually based around LOGAND with a constant consisting of a power-of-two minus one.
19:16:24  gigamonkey: SBCL recognizes some arithmetic operations under MOD and compiles it into fancy native (machine) modular arithmetic.
19:16:55  Has to be machine-native word size or smaller, though.
19:17:40  I have often wondered if it would make sense to have a WITH-MODULAR-ARITHMETIC macro that lets you say: (with-modular-arithmetic (:bits 32) ...) and have all the arithmetic operations in the body be done like C.
19:17:53  that would be very cool
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19:19:32  Something I've noticed is that some C compilers don't handle the limitations of their target machine with regards to shift counts very well.
19:19:53  (ran into problems with a shift count of 32 on an x86, for example.)
19:19:56  nyef: it's explicitly left undefined, so :\
19:20:23  pkhuong: I suppose I should be greatful that it didn't do stream I/O instead, then?
19:20:40  nyef: you mean the compiler generated code that tried to shift 32 positions on a machine that can't do that?
19:21:09  i'm not sure that can even be encoded immediate...
19:21:13  gigamonkey: x86 ignores the high bits in a variable shift count.
19:21:13  gigamonkey: Yeah. Or didn't generate code to check for that much of a shift when using a variable shift amount.
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19:21:38  So does 68k, but 68k aknowledges one more bit.
19:22:18 trebor_h_ [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-232-030.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp
19:22:18  (Yes, okay, it was a 32-bit variable. But in that case, the answer should have been zero, damnit!)
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19:26:12  Oh, cute. There's vestigial support for big-endian x86 systems in SBCL.
19:26:43 *tic* counts the number of BE x86 systems...
19:26:54  Yeah, exactly.
19:27:12 fruitbag [n=bluefish@89.241.24.15] has joined #lisp
19:27:14  Hey, guys
19:27:22  Any thoughts here on efficient spaghetti untanglement algorithms?
19:27:32 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
19:27:36  Would that even work? Thinking about ops working on xH/xL.
19:27:48  Twirl spaghetti on fork. Put in mouth. Chew. Digest.
19:27:57  Brute force but it works.
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19:28:05  Heh-heh
19:28:05  and result is certainly not tangles
19:28:09  tangled*
19:28:17  any thoughts on http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fruitbag ?
19:28:18  No, seriously, though... this is an interesting mathematical an algorithmic problem.
19:28:28  The simplest tangle would just be a knot.
19:28:30  Step one: Don't cook the spaghetti.
19:28:36  operates in  O(bites) + 3 +/- 1 hours
19:29:26  At this point, provided you aren't getting fresh-made spaghetti, it's more a game of pick-up-sticks than anything else.
19:30:18  Seriously, though, LOAD-TYPE in src/compiler/x86/macros.lisp has a dispatch on backend byte order.
19:31:00  cute
19:31:08  fruitbag, 1 knife
19:31:52  You guys are amusing, But it really isn't funny. I don't like my intelligence being insulted./
19:32:02  grrr. i'd forgotten how annoying wading throug a few 10s-100s of  thousands of lines of c++ could be
19:32:17  fruitbag: have you any lisp content in your query?
19:32:28  if not, it's off-topic and you can hardly be surprised to have it blown off
19:32:31  right?
19:32:37  Right.
19:32:59  (Mmm... pasta...)
19:33:24  like donuts, but thin
19:33:29  Heh
19:33:30  This is wierd
19:33:33  "I don't like my intelligence being insulted" - one of those things one should never ever say
19:33:39  anyone see jeng around recently?
19:33:45  IRC is working, but my browser isn't.
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19:36:33  hello, how could I get the modification time of a file? calling ls does not count :)
19:36:56  huh.  adobe's lightroom was largely implemented in lua it seems. neat.  now if only they'd embedded a lisp...
19:37:06  clhs file-write-date
19:37:06  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_file_w.htm
19:38:04  I still don't know how do you do to search the hyperspec and find exactly the apropiate function
19:38:21  tc-rucho: you can always pose a natural language query in #lisp
19:38:23  apropos
19:38:35  hmm
19:38:50  clhs file-size
19:38:51  There's also knowing ahead of time what the function you're looking for is called, and just needing to review the spec for it.
19:38:51  Sorry, I couldn't find anything for file-size.
19:38:58  clhs file-length
19:38:59  ......
19:38:59  http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_file_l.htm
19:39:02  oh
19:39:14  I would have called it file-size
19:39:31  tc-rucho: well, you could start for instance with
19:39:33  tc-rucho: for exploratory queries, using pubmsg to specbot is not the right thing to do.
19:39:33  No, because that would have to account for the depth of the file...
19:39:36  cltl2-section File System Interface
19:39:37  http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node202.html
19:39:40  tc-rucho: it also helps to somewhat internalize the chapter organization of the CLHS. Then you'll get to the point where you can probably guess which chapter is going to deal with what you want and you can look in the dictionary.
19:39:43  for that chapter.
19:39:44  "The variable <<<<<<< is unbound"
19:39:50  and then read through Renaming, Deleting, and Other File Operations
19:39:59  salex: looks like you've got an svn merge in there :)
19:40:04  salex, svn hada conflict
19:40:05 *salex* obviously wasn't paying attention when updating :)
19:40:09  or svn conflict, rather
19:40:10  yup!
19:40:39  it's a sure sign when you get symbols like |.R281| showing up
19:40:41  heh
19:40:41  In this case you'd might have to try two: first you'd look in the obvious Files chapter but then realize that that's really about file names and then you'd look in the Streams chapter and find it.
19:41:16  thanks a ton for the almost instant help :D  I'm gonna mess with the repl now.
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19:43:27  tc-rucho: mess with it in slime
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19:45:09  salex: sure, that's what I use to experiment. When I know what I have to use, and how, I just use a nicely tuned sbcl repl I have. It has a coloured "current package" prompt and rlwrap ;D
19:45:26  for little stuff mostly
19:45:33  otherwise I go stright with slime
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19:45:52 -!- ivansto is now known as ivanst
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19:49:44  is it just me, or does the PLOP (http://code.google.com/p/plop/) logo resemble hunchentoot's a lot?
19:50:23  it's a generic lisp logo
19:50:26  ivanst: it's a public domain image.
19:50:46  ah.
19:51:19  ("made with secret alien technology")
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20:00:31  anyone familiar with the newish --script stuff (sbcl)... is there a way to specify a different core in the script?
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20:06:30  Okay so, I'm not terribly clear on what I need for something like this. I think weblocks or uncommonweb would work, but I want to check: I have basically the 'model' for an app working, with a db and everything. I want to write a web interface for it (while still allowing other interfaces through other channels). The web interface would be an AJAX thing that interacts with the model backend.
20:06:54  salex: no - I think the intention is that you save an executable core for such use cases
20:06:56  But I'm getting mixed messages from what I read about whether you have to use these frameworks' object backends as well, for your objects.
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20:09:11  sykopomp: these frameworks are good if you want to control your application in a fine grained fashion from the server.  if the server is merely a data provider and you plan on writing the frontend in html and javascript, these frameworks do not buy you as much.
20:09:21  sykopomp: (ymmv etc)
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20:10:59  H4ns: I'd say the application control is somewhat split between client side/server side. The server still does a lot of work, and really isn't just for state. It takes care of sending certain messages to clients and parsing and interpreting a lot of their input.
20:12:39  sykopomp: as a general rule, i'd say you want some framework if you plan on generating html in a dynamic fashion. they will give you modules and cross-page state maintenance
20:12:53  the AJAX client would really only hopefully have access to a few server-side functions to facilitate a few things.
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20:13:37  hmmm
20:13:59  sykopomp: if the client executes abstract commands on the server, a web framework will not be that helpful.
20:14:45 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-152.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp
20:14:48  chandler: ah, ok. i'll have to remember how to do that then!
20:15:12 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.250.172] has joined #lisp
20:15:23  salex: save lisp and die, of course!
20:15:24  so, if I want some kind of client action to trigger a server-side lisp function, that's not quite what I want?
20:15:31 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp
20:15:41  salex: the keyword is :executable
20:15:52  sykopomp: no, i'd go for a simple restful service for that.
20:15:56  that's the part I couldn't remember  (as I don't tend to do this)
20:16:03  seems an obvious choice
20:16:07  Yes, indeed.
20:16:25  H4ns: ah, alright, thank you :)
20:16:51 rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp
20:16:53  are there any available libraries for lisp that do something like that that I could scaffold on top of, or is this something I should just roll myself?
20:17:04  sykopomp: i'm about to release a json library that might be helpful.
20:17:12  sykopomp: hunchentoot
20:18:00  excellent. I'll keep an eye out for the json lib as well
20:18:02 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp
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20:18:53  chandler: thanks, exactly what I needed (to send to someone for testing)
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20:19:43  H4ns: is there anything in particular that your lib does different from something like cl-json, by any chance?
20:20:45  sykopomp: it is simple, and it does not intern random symbols.  it also has a streaming generator mode, so you can easily generate exactly the json that you want to generate.
20:21:13  oooh
20:21:23 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-34-186.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp
20:21:48  sykopomp: well, and the distinguishing feature and the reason why i have not released it is that it will have documentation :)
20:22:15 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit []
20:22:49  hahaha
20:23:09  chandler: now hopefully he won't worry to much about why it's 30+ Mb ;)
20:23:10 pinterface2 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp
20:23:49  salex: well it's got this really nice startup sound encoded using FLAC, but for some reason it's not playing on your system...
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20:26:18  H4ns: careful, you're putting yourself way out on the fringes there
20:26:20  heh
20:26:32  next you'll be telling us you have a release model
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20:27:22  Germans tend to release their software
20:27:25  locklace: I'm more afraid of being told that maybe grabbing from darcs wouldn't be as nice as grabbing a release.
20:27:35 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp
20:28:08  sykopomp: yeah that would definitely have me checking the ambient temperature in hell
20:28:42  H4ns: http://www.cliki.net/HT-AJAX Found this, too! Exciting :)
20:29:00  this might be easier than I thought. Web programming has always had this mystery aura for me...
20:29:03 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp
20:29:18  i in particular like the documentation and tutorial site!
20:29:38  for HT-AJAX?
20:29:40  sykopomp: no, yason is only about json, nothing else.
20:29:51  sykopomp: yeah.  linked from the page that you just referred to
20:29:55  ah
20:30:13 -!- mbacarella [i=[Nflboxq@panix2.panix.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)]
20:30:27  and yes, I was only referring to something that seems like what I want (a JS->lisp-server-side-call lib)
20:32:00  sykopomp: i'd rather go with a straight restful service than rpc.
20:32:18  really? why so?
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20:32:45  safer?
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20:33:29  sykopomp: no, but remote requests in javascript are asynchronous, so rpc does not look like rpc on the javascript side anyway, unless you use some fancy cps library
20:33:43  sykopomp: but this may be a weak argument :)
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20:34:33  asynchronous stuff isn't a problem, any calls that HT-AJAX would handle are tossed into an event queue for processing.
20:35:04  sykopomp: i can't comment, as i don't comprehend the ht-ajax documentation site.
20:35:25  hm. Alright. Thanks a lot for the advice :)
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20:35:52  sykopomp: yw.  you might want to hijack ht-ajax and host it on common-lisp.net if you use it.
20:36:04  sykopomp: as of now, it seems to be basically inaccessible.
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20:36:19 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-34-186.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"]
20:36:20  H4ns: yeah, the site linked from the hunchentoot page seems down
20:36:23 pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp
20:36:40  ...and the download link is dead. ugh
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20:44:52  the who DCG concept (patmatch) in PAIP, has someone ever pushed the NL parser to the limit by adding a tons of parsing rules and made it more than just a toy?
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20:45:43 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "]
20:46:34  who/whole
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21:16:17  Uh, where's Xach?
21:16:19 pjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp
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21:16:29 -!- user____ [n=user@p54925973.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"]
21:17:44 *nyef* hopes he's just spending some non-emergency time with his family or something similar.
21:18:43  Maybe he mentioned something in the logs?
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21:21:31  Anyone in Munich in the first week of december?
21:21:33 pinterface2 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp
21:21:43  could be
21:22:00  i'm in augsburg, 70km west
21:22:03  Hun: http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/munich-lisp/2008-November/000308.html
21:22:28  is anybody aware of users of sb-grovel other than SBCL contribs?
21:23:12 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp
21:23:14  Heh. I don't even use sb-grovel when I'm doing stuff involving IOCTL constants and structures.
21:23:24  nyef: good man.
21:23:33 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp
21:23:51  tcr: i could arrange coming. no organizing though, got a lot of work to do at my university right now
21:24:06  kreuter: Are you sure about that?
21:24:07  tcr: He is signed in, but not in the channel. I don't know why.
21:24:18  nyef: nope.
21:24:28  Hun: As of now, the 3rd december is the most likely candidate for a date.
21:25:00  Hun: I'd suggest to subscribe to munich-lisp, and see if you can make it.
21:25:09  3rd is problematic for me... i have to manage a students club on wednesday
21:25:10  will do
21:25:17  kreuter: Would your reaction be the same if I said that I also hacked a VOP or two to inline my syscalls instead of going through a call_into_c?
21:25:28 O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-125-215.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp
21:25:28  (I didn't, but it's something that I could easily see myself doing.)
21:25:40  Hun: Wednesday is the day that me personally suits most. Couldn't you skip that club by any chance?
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21:25:56  that's possible :)
21:26:00  nyef: I don't think I have an opinion about that today.  maybe I could, some other day.
21:26:07  Fair enough.
21:26:31 *tic* has to revive the Gothenburg Lisp user group.
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21:32:07 *fusss* wishes he didn't have to take cheap PHP projects to pay the rent :-/
21:32:57  there's plenty of room under the bridge
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21:34:45  Is there a source repository for cl-pdf available?
21:35:04 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit []
21:35:07  yes
21:35:18  I just saw it on its cliki site
21:35:39 fusss_ [n=chatzill@pool-70-108-125-168.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp
21:35:45  we are building a bridge, people are welcome to find shelter here - although we don't know whether the parens will keep up under the weight... :)
21:37:24  bridge taken by Huddling Haskellers
21:37:55  pierce it with arrows!
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21:39:23  hum, any sbcl hacker around could give me an example of a "funcallable instance"? Seems to be really similar to a function in how it's mapped in memory, but I can't find any example
21:39:38 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.194.204] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)]
21:39:42  Can I ask what you're doing first?
21:39:44  interpreted-function, generic-function
21:40:30  chandler, abusing some code by lichtblau to see the memory usage of lisp objects
21:40:44  xan: any generic function.
21:40:55 -!- Jasko3 [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)]
21:41:03  jsnell, pkhuong ah, I see, that seems to work, thank you
21:42:04 elurin [n=user@85.99.194.204] has joined #lisp
21:43:06  xan: we have this half-done something if that helps: http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=cl-dwim-wui;a=headblob;f=/src/util/object-size.lisp
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21:43:17  xan: will you post your results somewhere?
21:44:48  attila_lendvai, sure, I don't claim to really know what I'm doing though. I'm already having a hard time figuring out the code I've found and sbcl internals. Thanks for the link though.
21:48:03  attila_lendvai, really nice, you should blog about that.
21:48:31  xan: heh, i should get my weekends back first... :)
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21:53:00  attila_lendvai, heh :)
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21:58:37  hi there
22:00:31  I've compiled torta with sbcl, but when I start torta, that's failed, see http://pastebin.com/d711cbb4c
22:00:49  any idea or any clue ?
22:01:08  I follow this how-to : http://wiki.freaks-unidos.net/torta#examples
22:01:36  CL-PDF:READ-PDF-FILE signals a PDF-PARSE-ERROR on some .pdf file of file. Can anyone comment on this? (Different pdf versions numbers,...?)
22:02:26  sputnick: you probably want to *load* torta in at some time.
22:02:34  sputnick: you need to (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :torta)
22:02:54 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection]
22:03:12  ah, you did that, in the debugger. Now it seems you're missing some sort of font data file.
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22:18:22  hi
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23:17:47  can you please check whether ftp://common-lisp.net/pub/project/lisppaste/lisppaste2.3.tar.gz works for you?
23:17:56  "you" meaning "anyone" :)
23:19:44  H4ns: it came down and it has files in it
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23:19:57  H4ns: wfm
23:20:20  thank you!
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23:20:52  H4ns: i've compiled a darcs binary, it's in ~alendvai/darcs/, it's 2.1.1rc2, so i think we should wait until the soonish next release...
23:21:15  attila_lendvai: whatever you prefer.  just let me know when you think it is time to make install
23:22:53  well, locally i'm using the HEAD of the stable branch, but this is a server, so...
23:23:44  attila_lendvai: we are the lisp dudes, we don't need no stinkin' releases
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23:24:19  H4ns: that's the spirit :)
23:26:16  H4ns: heh, well, if you feel adventurous, then     cp /usr/bin/darcs-bin some-safe-place      cp ~alendvai/darcs/darcs /usr/bin/darcs-bin
23:26:19 Praveen [n=chatzill@c-69-253-237-19.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has joined #lisp
23:26:37  how do i output to a file
23:26:38  ?
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23:27:27  minion: tell Praveen about PCL
23:27:28  Praveen: look at PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005).
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23:28:34  attila_lendvai: done.
23:28:46  attila_lendvai: previous darcs is darcs.old
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23:29:28  H4ns: woohoo, and it fixed darcsweb, too! :)
23:29:39  attila_lendvai: that is brill!
23:29:47 *H4ns* closes the ticket, if any
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23:30:55  minion: is there a way like in unix we use command >filename ...... ?
23:30:56  maybe
23:31:44  Praveen: wasn't it suspicious that i commanded someone to tell you something and *it* did it within a second? :)
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23:35:35  attila_lendvai: yea but the book talks about opening streams ...... what about directing the output stream to a file ?
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23:36:09  wow, you read it all?!
23:36:56  i've got no time to read, i've got a deadline to meet!
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23:39:02  attila_lendvai: are u asking me ??
23:39:12  Praveen: Maybe you can use 'open'.  http://clhs.lisp.se/Body/f_open.htm#open
23:39:25  god, i'm going to sleep...
23:39:29  gn
23:39:34  attila_lendvai: Sleep well.
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