00:02:43 mmorrow [n=link@c-98-193-60-208.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:22 -!- dthomp [n=dat@c-24-22-103-86.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:03:39 is there an evalbot in here? 00:03:42 -!- antgreen [n=green@24.156.140.114] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:03:59 mmorrow: no 00:04:19 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@h-188-232.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:04:33 well, at least there's no danger of it turning on us then 00:05:01 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 00:05:39 Praveen [n=chatzill@c-69-139-92-106.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:23 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@5.pool85-49-163.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:07:21 Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.2.115.158] has joined #lisp 00:09:06 -!- Jacob_H__ [n=jacob@92.1.170.100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:09:31 -!- Jacob_H_ is now known as Jacob_H 00:10:40 -!- masm [n=user@213.22.190.91] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:11:10 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:11:46 -!- sqvirt [n=sqvirt@c-24-16-244-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:11:48 who stole Xach? 00:12:28 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:12:44 his child maybe? :) 00:13:05 nonsense, he's supposed to be in #lisp at all times 00:13:16 attila_lendvai: but, when you're here 00:13:30 i have no children... :) 00:13:42 attila_lendvai: how much does cl-perec support twiddling with the schema it uses? 00:13:57 for purposes of having a known external representation, as well as eventual optimisation 00:14:10 slava is just fishing for something else to gloat about 00:14:18 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 00:14:21 (is factor in win64 done yet?) 00:14:37 nevermind that win64 is essentially useless :) 00:15:19 mathrick: if you ask if you can have much effect you can have on the generated sql schema, then not much. you have some control for optimizations, but using cl-perec on an existing schema was never a design goal, although its doable if someone puts the required effort in it. 00:16:13 -!- silenius [n=jl@e178014219.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:16:14 simonb [n=simon@ellen.simonb.se] has joined #lisp 00:17:56 attila_lendvai: okay, and do you have an idea of how to do it? I don't have an existing schema, but I do have a layout with a "known intended" mapping to the schema, and I'd like to be able to ensure that it looks (and performs) within the bounds of what I expect 00:18:17 hefner: careful not to be crushed by the juggernaut :D 00:18:27 hah 00:19:26 heh (let ((x somevalue)) 00:19:28 (if (cond) (i want to reassign the value of x)) 00:19:30 statements) 00:19:31 Is that possible ?? 00:19:34 <_deepfire> hefner, what is it about win64 uselessness? 00:21:39 Praveen: what makes you think it isn't possible? 00:22:06 mathrick: all i know is that there is a primitive layer of storage locations for each slot. when the schema is exported, the first step is to map the CLOS stuff into this layer. you would need to hack the code to be able to define the storage locations for yourself, but even then there would be several constraints on the id column... 00:22:26 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 00:22:31 mathrick: it's not impossible, but it requires nontrivial changes... 00:22:44 stassats: the impression that lisp is purely functional is my guess 00:23:01 fe[nl]ix: sorry, I still haven't gotten my head around how opening a socket requires a dozen external utility libraries, including lazy sequences 00:23:07 mathrick: i wasn't working much at all on cl-perec, i'm more like a power user of it than a developer 00:23:13 ah 00:23:46 hm, can someone share an elegant way to get '("a" 00:23:47 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:52 "b" "c") into a nice single string 00:23:58 of "a b c" 00:24:25 (apply 'concatenate 'string '("a" "b" "c")) 00:24:26 egn: (format nil "~{~A ~}" '("a" "b" "c"))? 00:24:31 hi guys, where can I find some usefull tips on using SBCL REPL (and are repl commands standard across different lisp implementations) like e.g. the error line number?? 00:24:38 stassats: should i just ue (let ((x new value))) ??? 00:24:49 stassats: that doesn't add spaces. 00:24:58 and mine adds too many 00:24:59 it's so annoying that lisp programmers always complain about external dependencies... code reuse should be considered a good thing. 00:25:04 sykopomp: oh, i missed that part 00:25:06 lemme look up the conditional format string 00:25:17 attila_lendvai: it's only code reuse if the dependencies do something useful 00:25:43 Praveen: in that case, you need SETF 00:25:55 mathrick: stassats: thank you 00:26:10 hefner: there aren't only sockets inside iolib 00:26:22 ohh .... k 00:27:02 and the only superfluous dep is series, which is quite handy 00:27:51 inetic: slime. 00:27:53 _deepfire: my argument is basically that 1) most windows machines can't run win64 apps, 2) most apps don't need multiple gigabytes of ram, and 3) (specifically regarding SBCL) application deployment on win32 is still lacking enough that it makes more sense to fix it first 00:28:02 fe[nl]ix: exactly! 00:28:48 hefner: what exactly ? 00:29:11 I'm really conflicted in this, as I think a powerful and ubiquitous IO multiplexing system would be a great step forward 00:29:16 pkhuong, arr, I was affraid that someone would say that, I'm gonna try it (the 32-th time), thanks 00:29:32 egn: (format nil "~{~A~^ ~}" '("a" "b" "c")) 00:29:43 hefner: alexandria is useful; trivial-garbage helps portability; osicat is factored out, but could be part of iolib (which would be silly); cffi helps portability; babel is a fast and portable lib for encodings; bordeaux-threads helps portability; ... the only questionable is series. i think that ratio not bad at all, even if series is considered avoidable... 00:29:49 trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-230-156.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:24 and I'm removing series usage right now, just give me 15 minutes ;) 00:30:53 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:31:17 I think if it were factored correctly, there'd be a useful layer that didn't deal with character encodings or threading. 00:31:36 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.131.136] has joined #lisp 00:32:02 I'm irrationally biased against alexandria (but hey, at least it isn't metabang-bind, though that no doubt gets pulled in transitively somewhere) 00:32:26 hefner: the license is copy/paste friendly. 00:32:37 I'm also skeptical of osicat :) 00:32:45 bah. i don't want an io lib that does caching without lockings, or does no caching at all (think dns), or an io lib that tells me to go wrap my streams using an external lib for encodings (think speed)... 00:32:45 against alexandria ??? why ? 00:32:59 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.127.185.191] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:33:53 fe[nl]ix: just make sure you keep your common sense before fulfilling other wishes from hefner! :) 00:33:59 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:17 *hefner* shrugs 00:34:41 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 00:34:44 hefner: what's wrong with alexandria? 00:34:59 what's right with it? it's a library of random utilities. it's kind of in poor taste. 00:34:59 hefner: come one now, you made me curious. what do you have against alexandria ? 00:35:54 hefner: umm? That's precisely to make it a single dep instead of requiring 15 random, trivial deps 00:35:58 I don't know if they're random, but I've found myself using a lot of them 00:36:07 so that you install alexandria once and not 15 times 00:36:37 I don't know how you could possibly deal with it besides chaning the reality to a more perfect one 00:36:45 oudeis [n=oudeis@77.127.185.191] has joined #lisp 00:36:46 hefner: most of CL is a library of random utilities, and if it's not enough, their names are much worse than that of the ones in alexandria... 00:37:23 *hefner* shrugs 00:37:52 jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:54 *attila_lendvai* realizes that this discussion is pointless and goes to sleep 00:38:00 gn 00:39:50 my feelings are simply that first and foremost there ought to be straightforward wrappers for things like posix and sockets syscalls, independent of any huge ambitious libraries with unbounded scope that want to build on top of them 00:40:28 which seems to follow logically from having a portable ffi 00:41:04 but instead, no one really bothers, and said infrastructure gets rolled into the bottom layer of iolib or the like, whether you want the rest or not 00:41:18 including the laundry list of random protocols it aspires to some day implement 00:41:51 yes, but the definition of "straightforward" can vary greatly 00:41:54 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:42:05 I think this big ball of mud is, for the sake of getting things done, the right way to approach an application, but not so desirable for a library 00:45:02 I'm not interested in exposing the bottom layer, because that's not why I made iolib 00:45:08 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.85.95] has joined #lisp 00:46:01 hefner: why don't you fork iolib and expose the bottom layer of it? 00:46:09 if you want just plain FFI bindings, you could roll your own in 10-15 minutes of work 00:46:30 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.85.95] has quit [Client Quit] 00:46:38 -!- ``Erik___ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:47:02 fe[nl]ix: Funny, it seems like it takes longer to me... 00:47:21 I don't want to fork iolib, that's counterproductive 00:47:23 Not necessarily for anything iolib does, but for the things I need... 00:47:28 hell, I don't even use it :) 00:47:40 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.85.95] has joined #lisp 00:48:41 Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has joined #lisp 00:48:54 I have decided to declare the current phase of SBCL/ARM implementation done on Thursday. 00:48:56 How can I generate a random number between -6.0 to 6.0 00:49:10 random function only gives positive number as an output 00:49:14 Goan: Take the output of RANDOM and scale it appropriately. 00:49:25 Feel free to subtract 6 or whatever it takes. 00:49:27 so use the awesomely powerful concept of subtraction. 00:49:34 try -3. it's pretty random. 00:49:57 slyrus__: "Generated by fair dice roll, guaranteed to be random." 00:50:06 slyrus__: otoh, there's no uninteresting number... 00:50:41 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:51:13 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 00:51:53 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:57 postamar [n=postamar@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:52:07 Aszarsha [n=Miranda@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:52:25 (- (random 12.0) 6.0) does the trick 00:52:27 thanks 00:52:43 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:54:50 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 00:54:58 I just typed C-c C-k into emacs to compile a buffer, got errors, tried to fix them pressed C-c C-k again and now all it does is printing out "compiling file /foo/bar.lisp ():" and nothing more happens. any Ideas? (emacs hates me :-) ) 00:55:24 inetic: did you exit the debugger? 00:55:45 pkhuong, probably not 00:56:41 pkhuong, and maybe yes, sorry, how do I tell? 00:56:42 Goan: +6.0 will be not included in the generated numbers 00:58:43 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.115.158] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:00:17 pkhuong, aha, you exit by pressing 0 when the error occures right? but if I forget to do that is the only way to continue working pressing: M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp? 01:03:02 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:03:48 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:10:50 -!- denatus [n=denatus@084202106139.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 01:11:49 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:14:11 and another thing if I may, when I get a backtrace in the debugger go to one of the lines where I see a name of one of my functions, I press "v" and SLIME replies with: # has no debug-block information. Am I doing something wrong? 01:15:30 inetic: no, as long as you've left the debugger. Assuming a single threaded lisp, SWANK can't really handle more input if it's still handling the debugger. 01:15:47 as for debug locations, if space or speed is too high or debug at 0, you might not get them. 01:16:08 `Aszarsha [n=Miranda@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:16:50 the backtrace seems to have "only" 31 lines 01:17:46 isnt there a command I should add to the buffer to tell the compiler to compile with debug information? 01:20:32 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:24:05 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-90-27.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:28:25 So, erm, what's the "standard" way to write lisp programs? 01:28:35 Quadrescence: you mean the usual way? 01:28:40 Yeah 01:28:41 jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 01:28:47 Emacs with SLIME 01:28:56 No, I mean generally. 01:29:00 REPL -> does it work? y-> add it to source, n-> fix 01:29:05 Something like that? 01:29:06 ._. 01:29:13 Oh. 01:29:39 Well, you write code into a file, load it into the repl, and then re-eval pieces of it as you go with the editor. 01:29:51 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@77.127.185.191] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:31:17 You wind up doing little informal unit tests as you go with the repl. 01:31:17 jfm3: So, should I be only editing/typing in a single buffer? 01:31:45 I usually have a few .lisp files in buffers, and another buffer with the interactive SLIME session. 01:32:18 And by "interactive SLIME session" I mean a useful skin over the usual SBCL REPL. 01:32:24 Hum. 01:32:25 Right. 01:33:08 C-x C-e on a defun in a lisp-mode buffer will redefun that defun through SLIME, for example. 01:33:30 Let's see. 01:34:17 -!- Aszarsha [n=Miranda@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:34:20 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:35:17 From time to time, you will make the running Lisp image so borked that it will be easier to restart it than to fix it manually. In this case you type ,quit at the slime repl, and reload your source. 01:35:51 jfm3: there is ,restart-inferior-lisp 01:36:09 stassats: I did not know that. Nice. 01:36:15 Quadrescence: are you working though PCL? 01:36:24 jfm3: No. 01:36:29 -!- trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-230-156.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:54 [1]wormil [n=wormil@c-76-110-250-160.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:36:56 -!- wormHome [n=wormil@c-76-110-250-160.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:37:06 jfm3: I went through http://mypage.iu.edu/~colallen/lp/lp.html entirely. Now I am reading PAIP. 01:37:16 Nice. 01:37:50 You might benefit from the PCL chapter on setting up Emacs and the rest of the usual development environment. 01:38:09 PAIP is on my list. 01:38:18 I'll take a look. I did also install emacs/slime, went through the tutorial and all. 01:38:32 (and I have it open, of course, as we speak) 01:39:33 There are other ways to do it, but most free Lispers use UNIX and Emacs. The other ways involve some vim or Eclipse stuff that I don't know a lot about, but I would imagine they document how they expect to be used pretty well. 01:40:59 Meh, I'll really try to get the hang of emacs. 01:41:14 People insist it will be worth it. 01:42:59 Quadrescence: it will, trust me 01:43:01 I would count myself among those people :) 01:43:26 Quadrescence: I was once all butterfingers with emacs and always opening new buffers I didn't want in fun new ways 01:43:57 Quadrescence: eventually I decided to put my frustration up front and center and use nothing but emacs for a bit until I GOT IT. 01:44:36 merlincorey: I went through your first stage. Hopefully I'm at your second stage. 01:44:55 Quadrescence: once gaining a bit of a baseline skill and knowledge with it there, it turned into a very productive tool for me. Then I started messing with slime. It totally spoiled me as far as a programming editor/environment - just like Lisp itself spoiled me as far as a programming language. 01:45:43 Quadrescence: the best part is at least with where I am at now, I am comfortable with the functionality I know, and I learn new thgs vfairly regularly that improve it even more! :) 01:45:46 [2]wormil [n=wormil@c-76-110-250-160.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:04 sorry was lagging a bit on that last bit of text :) 01:46:10 uchitoru [n=user@85.139.117.150] has joined #lisp 01:46:25 -!- edon [n=edon@82.114.94.18] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:46:26 GN all 01:46:34 -!- [1]wormil [n=wormil@c-76-110-250-160.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:47:02 goodnight 01:49:50 Emacs feels weird until your fingers learn a few keystrokes and you have had a few calm trips through the manual/s. emacswiki.org helps. 01:53:52 certain chords are very useful as well, such as C-h b 01:54:44 C-h in general is very helpful 01:55:05 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:55:42 araujo: I got a "reference card" on my other monitor open. 01:56:16 I want to disconnect my mouse for a week to get used to things. :S 01:57:18 Quadrescence: I read some good advice on a blog some time ago... you can't take IN an entire reference card at once, it just can't be done 01:57:31 Well of course. 01:57:34 Quadrescence: their suggestion was to have a post-it nearby with the 5-10 commands you are trying to learn RIGHT NOW 01:57:39 and just change that list as you learn them 01:58:09 merlincorey: That's what I sort of do mentally. 01:58:13 (I think its a decent technique, and I've been trying it, but with a digital post-it) 01:59:01 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:00:57 -!- elurin [n=user@88.224.44.54] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:01:30 Lisp is making me "wtf" every 10 seconds. 02:02:43 Does slime have any auto-indenting? 02:03:07 And, err, maybe "tack on all the parentheses you need"-ing? 02:03:34 autoindent is , IIRC. 02:03:44 DrForr: I kind found that out. Thanks. 02:04:19 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-34-186.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 02:04:28 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-93-140.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [No route to host] 02:04:41 minion: tell Quadrescence about paredit 02:04:41 Quadrescence: have a look at paredit: a set of Emacs commands, with a minor mode for convenient access to them, for editing balanced S-expressions and a number of higher-level operations on S-expressions, at ; see also the #paredit channel 02:04:57 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:05:16 cky [n=cky@203-211-111-251.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:06:24 -!- jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:08:22 Quadrescence: "structure editing" (like paredit approaches) is the only way to code. 02:08:48 sellout: What? >_> 02:09:14 Quadrescence: not having to think about parens. 02:09:28 sellout: Oh, I see. 02:10:22 I think it would be cool if the (forgets formal name) description of the buffer contained (parentheses open - par. closed) to the left of the cursor. 02:10:47 can you elaborate? 02:11:22 [1]wormil [n=wormil@c-76-110-240-129.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:12:31 -!- envi_office2 [i=envi@203.109.25.100] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:12:51 hefner: ((((( ))) would show "2" 02:13:10 Quadrescence: mode-line? 02:13:21 hefner: Let | denote the cursor position, then something like (defun power (x y)| (if (= y 0) 1 (* x (power x (1- y))))) would display 2-1 = +1 in the "buffer description", indicating there is one open parentheses to the left of the cursor. sellout mode-line, yes. 02:14:09 (defun power (x y) (if (= y 0) 1 (* x (power x |(1- y))))) would display 6-2 = +4 02:14:10 Quadrescence: Oh, you want to know the depth at point. 02:14:58 sellout: I'm just saying it would be interesting I guess. 02:15:23 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.131.136] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:16:30 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has joined #lisp 02:17:15 inetic pasted "can't get debug info" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70177 02:17:50 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:03 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:19:10 -!- [2]wormil [n=wormil@c-76-110-250-160.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:19:52 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-2-163.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 02:24:01 [2]wormil [n=wormil@c-76-110-240-129.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:25:38 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 02:26:14 Requesting a way to see what variables/functions are defined (in sbcl). 02:28:33 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:30:05 ep0ch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 02:30:54 Praveen_ [n=chatzill@c-69-253-237-19.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:32:16 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:32:17 Praveen__ [n=chatzill@c-69-139-92-106.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:31 Quadrescence: in slime: C-c I (find-package "CL-USER") RET and then "n present symbols." 02:33:49 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has joined #lisp 02:34:37 -!- ep0ch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Client Quit] 02:34:39 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:37:49 (defun x (a b) 02:37:57 (return a)) 02:38:02 don't post code here 02:38:14 post it to lisppaste 02:38:31 stassats: its just a sample 02:38:32 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:42 just 2 lines 02:38:46 Praveen__: that will not work as you expected 02:39:35 Praveen__: I just started, and I am going to guess (defun x (a b) a) is what you want that to do. 02:40:04 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 02:40:05 Praveen__: but that's not a first time you post code here 02:40:59 alright i won't post it ...... sorry 02:41:59 Praveen__: if you want to return from a function, use (return-from x a) 02:42:03 while using cond ..... can i just place a variable to return after a serious of statements inside the cond ? 02:42:11 -!- [1]wormil [n=wormil@c-76-110-240-129.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:18 -!- crod [n=cmell@cad43e-104.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:43:19 cky_ [n=cky@203-211-87-20.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:44:10 stassats: k got it 02:45:08 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-2-163.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 02:45:31 sellout: C-RET in the slime repl was what I was talking about for "closing all open parentheses" 02:45:31 :o 02:45:51 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:46:45 Quadrescence: oh, I didn't realize you wanted it in the repl, I was thinking in an editing buffer. 02:46:59 sellout: Well, I did want it in the editing buffer. 02:47:07 :> So, really, nevermind. 02:47:24 Quadrescence: well, then you _really_ want paredit instead :) 02:47:46 sellout: Maybe when emacs, slime, and lisp are more in my brain. 02:47:49 -!- uchitoru [n=user@85.139.117.150] has quit [] 02:48:04 Then I'll add more things to bork things. 02:48:37 -!- Praveen [n=chatzill@c-69-139-92-106.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:48:52 paredit will help to get more lisp into your brain sooner 02:49:56 stassats: I did not use paredit for a long time. It was nice to just write it out for a while. 02:50:28 -!- Praveen_ [n=chatzill@c-69-253-237-19.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:51:00 sykopomp: some here even use vim 02:51:21 I'm with stassats ... I put off paredit for a while, then when I started using it I was like "damn, I should have had this from the start." 02:51:32 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 02:52:49 stassats: I know. Poor souls. Tsk tsk. 02:53:14 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-983be4be9ef50ef5] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:54:05 shh, we shall not tempt them 02:54:45 sellout: But if I don't even know emacs, slime, or lisp well, then. 02:54:46 yeah. 02:56:06 -!- postamar [n=postamar@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 02:57:04 crod [n=cmell@cb8a6a-202.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 02:57:34 paredit is pretty simple, just a bunch of key-bindings 02:57:59 emacs is a bunch of keybindings, and so is slime 02:58:00 D: 02:58:35 i wouldn't say so 02:58:43 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:01:19 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 03:01:23 -!- cky [n=cky@203-211-111-251.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:01:24 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:05:17 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:46 Praveen___ [n=chatzill@c-69-139-92-106.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:05:48 -!- Praveen___ is now known as Praveen 03:07:10 freelab [n=freelab@58.63.85.95] has joined #lisp 03:11:56 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 03:13:56 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.85.95] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:14:32 -!- drwhen|work is now known as drwhen 03:18:05 elurin [n=user@85.99.194.204] has joined #lisp 03:18:55 pitui [n=pitui@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:02 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a94-227.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:22:46 jso [n=user@151.159.200.89] has joined #lisp 03:22:52 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:23:24 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a6a-202.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:23:47 -!- Praveen__ [n=chatzill@c-69-139-92-106.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:24:27 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 03:26:05 -!- cky_ is now known as cky 03:28:55 -!- Praveen [n=chatzill@c-69-139-92-106.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:36:06 -!- `Aszarsha [n=Miranda@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:36:07 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:36:13 Would someone care to tell me any warnings about the LOOP macro? 03:38:17 what do you mean? 03:38:21 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:39:02 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:39:12 Quadrescence: WARNING don't proceed without checking out ye old PCL 03:39:14 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:39:26 merlincorey: :o 03:39:37 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:39:49 WARNING: LOOP may make you more productive and a better lisper. 03:39:54 Quadrescence: also: http://common-lisp.net/project/iterate/ 03:40:02 Quadrescence: but follow that link AFTER reading PCL 03:40:12 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-174.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:12 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has left #lisp 03:40:23 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 03:43:25 -!- drwhen is now known as drwhen|away 03:50:03 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:50:42 drewc: if you guys didn't get paid by me this month, let me know. checkout2go or whatever it's called is flaking out again. 03:51:13 Last time it eventually cleared itelf up so I'm hoping that'll work again. 03:51:45 gigamonkey: don't worry about it .. we've got a new merchant account on the way... 2co _is_ teh suck. 03:51:57 gigamonkey: we've never done any business of any kind, but you should make sure and pay me too! :P 03:52:08 *merlincorey* brings is nose out of it - joke was bad anyway 03:52:29 drewc: good news. 03:52:46 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-174.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:05 gigamonkey: Did you write PCL? 03:56:48 Quadrescence: I di. 03:57:04 did. 03:57:07 gigamonkey: Am I allowed to troll you and say it blows? :D 03:57:17 You can try. But I'll ignore you. 03:57:24 jtoy [n=jtoy@74.85.13.61] has joined #lisp 03:57:30 Of course I wouldn't mean it. 03:57:35 The work is much appreciated. 03:57:47 Cool. Welcome to Lisp. 04:00:20 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.194.204] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:01:32 gigamonkey: Hehe, thanks. 04:02:18 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:03:20 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-174.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:04:32 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:07:03 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:49 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 04:10:53 gigamonkey: Is the book essentially "frozen"? 04:11:06 Quadrescence: worse than that. It's been printed. 04:11:12 Is there anyone here who is using weblocks? 04:11:15 What's the function/format sequence to print a number in its word form? 04:11:19 tomoyuki28jp: Me. 04:11:33 If you go buy a few tens of thousands of copies, Apress will probably ask me to do a 2nd edition and it could get unfrozen. 04:11:40 ~r 04:11:45 Draggor: that was for you. 04:11:53 I gotcha gigamonkey :) Thanks! 04:12:08 rlpowell: Do you know where the function named "curry" is defined? I have been looking for it for long. 04:12:09 gigamonkey: I've contemplated it. :> Well, 1 copy, not tens of thousands. 04:12:11 gigamonkey: Love the book. :D 04:12:21 I do, in theory, fix errata on the web site ahead of new printings of the book. 04:12:29 tomoyuki28jp: it's not defined anywhere but in the source of the code you're reading. 04:12:37 ah, in weblocks. 04:12:38 *gigamonkey* should really get aroutd to being more systematic about his errata. 04:12:42 pkhuong: I think it's actually in a lib. 04:12:48 rlpowell: thanks. 04:12:56 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:56 gigamonkey: Was it typeset in (La)TeX? 04:13:10 Nah. 04:13:14 :( 04:13:18 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:13:27 I used cl-typesetting and my own homebrew markup while working on it. 04:13:40 Okay, that's sexy enough. 04:13:41 For the actual printed book, Apress did it in Quark or whatever. 04:13:59 tomoyuki28jp: It's part of metatilities; http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-graph/documentation/metabang.utilities-package/index.html 04:14:04 As long as it's not...Word. 04:14:15 If someone would add Knuth's line-breaking algorithm to cl-typesetting I'd think about trying to convince Apress to let me typeset my new book with Lisp. 04:14:23 rlpowell: Thanks a lot!! 04:14:25 Quadrescence: Word was actually involved. 04:14:35 Not voluntarily on my part though. 04:14:45 gigamonkey: Well, word isn't so bad. But there's better for books. 04:15:03 I held them off until the last possible moment and then taught my markup system to generate RTF with all their house styles applied properly. 04:15:21 Apparently it was one of the most cleanly formatted set of Word docs they'd ever got. 04:16:01 tomoyuki28jp: More usefully: http://www.cliki.net/metatilities 04:16:26 rlpowell: thanks :) 04:16:33 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:16:45 *Word*??? 04:16:58 That's how Apress does the copy editing phase. 04:17:22 You send them Word files. They mark them up with the revision tracking thingy on and you trade back and forth for a while. 04:18:13 Though there was some weird bit where you never "accepted" the changes or however it works in Word because they wan't the record of the back and forth readily apparent. 04:18:39 so... I'm playing with lists, and I'm trying to take the sum of (sqrt (* x y)) for x = (0 1 2 3 4) and y = (0 1 2 3 4)... I can't seem to do it right 04:18:43 I don't actually know what a better tool for that would have been, as much as I hated even opening Word. 04:18:46 I've heard Word's changeset stuff is actually pretty good. 04:19:00 i.e. that there isn't anything wysiwig better for that purpose. 04:19:05 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 04:19:17 fisxoj: Sounds like a QUOTE problem. But I'm the opposite of an expert 04:19:32 fisxoj: what have you tried? 04:19:53 Use http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp if needed. 04:19:57 rlpowell: it's really very good. You have to be careful in *how* you perform the edits though :\ 04:20:56 pkhuong: Yeah. I thought about it some at the time and I couldn't think of any particularly better ways to do it. 04:21:05 gigamonkey: http://pastebin.ca/1254013 04:21:12 those are two expressions I've tried 04:21:22 fisxoj: That looks very non-lispy 04:21:36 Quadrescence: I'm not very good at lisp :P 04:21:50 fisxoj: lookup REDUCE and MAPCAR 04:21:58 fisxoj: Neither am I. I just started like a day ago. :o 04:22:02 oo... mapcar... I know that one 04:22:15 I just try and do math homework with it to learn 04:22:19 You could also do it with LOOP but it'll be just one LOOP since you, I assume, want to step through the arrays in parallel. 04:22:38 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 04:22:42 gigamonkey: I need to do it for each combination 04:22:58 The cartesian product you mean? 04:23:12 gigamonkey: Your publisher didn't kill you for putting the book online? 04:23:34 Quadrescence: I arranged it with them. Got ripped off basically because I gave up part of my royalties. 04:23:41 Even though it probably boosted sales. 04:24:04 Good you arranged it. Do you know about Mathworld and the CRC Press thing? 04:24:07 I know I bought the book because of the site. 04:24:18 Quadrescence: vaguely. 04:24:55 fisxoj: is the answer 37.77657? 04:25:37 gigamonkey: I don't think so 04:25:44 gigamonkey: http://mathworld.wolfram.com/about/erics_commentary.html 04:26:45 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:18 But you basically want (+ (sqrt (* 0 0)) (sqrt (* 0 1)) ... (sqrt (* 4 4))) 04:29:07 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:29:11 gigamonkey: yes 04:29:25 fisxoj: Actually I think your first attempt would work if you changed the LET* in the inside of the LOOP to a SETF. 04:29:39 what's the difference between setf and setq? 04:29:50 SETF is more general and should be prefered. 04:30:01 fisxoj: we don't tend to use setq much at all... 04:30:15 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:31:14 -!- pitui [n=pitui@c-76-98-192-104.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:31:47 The way you have it your creating a new binding for K each time through the loop rather than setting the binding you created outside the loop. 04:32:16 gigamonkey: good answer before, and thanks, it's working now 04:32:32 Now that you've got it, I'll paste how I'd do it. 04:32:51 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:33:13 http://pastebin.ca/1254024 04:34:16 Goan pasted "Compute BlackJack Score" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70183 04:34:28 This is cool, for the first time, one of my lisp programs is being used fully by other people, and it's being depended upon. 04:35:22 gigamonkey: that 'summing' thing is awesome. 04:35:43 I am trying to sum up the values in the list of cards (A, 5, A, 6, A) - as we do in blackjack 04:35:53 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has left #lisp 04:36:13 The rule is simple - create a tempsum variable, set it to 0 then look at each of the cards in the list .. to sum up into tempsum 04:36:27 if its an ACE, and the tempsum is less than (or equal) to 10 - then add 11 to tempsum 04:36:36 otherwise add 1 to the tempsum 04:36:48 and for all other cards use the value-of-cards function 04:36:53 but the function is not returning correct output 04:37:31 Goan: I think you want DOLIST not DOTIMES 04:38:13 Goan: You're testing the entire list itself 04:38:19 not each element of the list 04:38:20 ah! 04:39:26 Goan: no, Quadrescence is confused. 04:39:38 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:39:39 You're basically summing 1, 2, 3 ... 04:39:43 I know 04:40:01 I am changing it to (dolist (temp list-of-cards)) 04:40:17 gigamonkey: Isn't he passing `card` into `value-of-a-card`, and testing if `card` (which is a list, no?) is an integer? 04:40:47 No, he's passing in i. 04:40:51 tks, it works now :) 04:42:11 Goan: though I think your algorithm is busted. (Mild pun intended.) 04:42:32 What if the cards are (5 5 A A)? 04:42:37 in terms of clarity and lines of code, I have to agree 04:42:39 gigamonkey: let me get on the bandwagon and agree that you did a great job on teh book. Im currently going through it again, even. You said something about a NEW book? Or was that hypothetical/conjecture? 04:42:54 gigamonkey: Yeah, I just pointed that out in #emacs 04:42:57 gigamonkey, it is 22 04:43:07 The function is just summing up the values 04:43:09 merlincorey: http://www.codersatwork.com/ 04:43:21 gigamonkey: You can hit me in the head for not thinking. :> 04:43:22 Goan: but shouldn't you sum to 12 rather than bust. 04:43:30 it is not checking if the total sum has exceeded 21 04:43:35 *gigamonkey* taps Quadrescence lightly on the head. 04:43:39 :3 04:44:39 gigamonkey: interesting; looks fun! I notice 15 names listed but it says sixteen people... is the last a surprise? 04:45:09 gigamonkey: also, please tell me your interview with Armstrong opened with "Hello, Joe!" 04:45:16 merlincorey: no. I'm still shuffling the last few people. In fact one name on that list has sort of gone dark and may be dropped. 04:45:19 gigamonkey: I don't see Stroustrup! :o 04:45:30 Quadrescence: the greatest troll in programming? 04:45:37 merlincorey: :D 04:45:51 It would be cool to see Larry Wall too. :> 04:46:05 Where does he live? 04:46:09 Wall already talks enough. 04:46:17 gigamonkey: Somewhere in the US. 04:46:19 sellout: also a good point. 04:46:22 I think. >_> 04:46:23 gigamonkey: understandable, understandable. If you end up getting forced to talk to Guido, please take him to task for hating on reduce :P 04:46:47 I did a big world tour; now I'm inclined to interview people I can drive to. Luckily that's a lot of people. 04:50:39 gigamonkey: I think I am a fine candidate for interview. 04:51:52 Quadrescence: that's nice of you 04:52:13 :> 04:53:56 I'm going to let you get a little more Lisp under your belt. 04:55:40 jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 04:56:22 gigamonkey: How much lisp under my belt are we talking? 04:56:53 Couple notches at least. 04:57:14 I have a couple! :D 04:58:41 Let's talk when you have so much Lisp under your belt you need to wear suspenders. 04:58:45 I have at least a couple notches .. and i'm driving distance! 04:59:00 i might be non-interesting though.... 04:59:03 gigamonkey: Oh no. 04:59:13 drewc: that's a pretty long drive. 04:59:21 Not that you wouldn't be worth it. 04:59:25 :D 05:00:20 -!- vorian is now known as heHATEme 05:02:12 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:03:40 Does anyone know the difference between 'lp' and 'lpr'? 05:05:26 One is a POSIX utility and the other is useful? 05:05:33 Which one is useful? 05:05:43 Sorry, `useful' was an overstatement. 05:06:06 lp(1) is in POSIX, according to NetBSD's lp(1) man page. 05:06:10 Based on the man pages they both seem to be part of CUPS. 05:06:29 In the past it seemed one of them would freeze my printer and one wouldn't. But I can never remember which was wich. 05:06:43 It will vary from system to system, I'm sure. 05:06:52 I can never keep them straight these days. 05:07:12 There was a time long ago when I managed to use them (on lucky days). 05:09:05 crod [n=cmell@cb8a94-227.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:09:07 Well, lp seemed to have worked this time. 05:09:16 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a94-227.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:09:37 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:09:43 In other mysteries: why is it that my Ubuntu box can print double-sided output to my printer which is shared via an Apple Airport 05:09:46 ... 05:09:51 Express thingy but my OS X box cannot. 05:09:58 #@$%@#$% Computers. 05:10:32 Did you check the double-sided option in the printing dialogue box on OS X? 05:11:13 It's greyed out. 05:11:28 It used to work when this printer was shared via an actual computer. 05:11:51 I see. 05:11:58 In other news, printing is still rocket science. 05:12:01 But somehow the AirPort express doesn't advertise it as being duplex capable even though it is. 05:12:17 Or something. 05:15:16 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.15] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 05:20:24 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:15 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1DA09.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:38 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 05:22:11 segv [n=mb@p4FC1D4E9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:22:22 sudoer [n=jtoy@64.55.144.103] has joined #lisp 05:23:44 Good morning. 05:24:03 Morning beach. 05:24:04 morning beach 05:26:53 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 05:27:32 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@74.85.13.61] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:29:07 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.85.95] has joined #lisp 05:32:29 -!- Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:32:45 Goan [n=Goan@it-roam28-215.it.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 05:34:30 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178012138.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [No route to host] 05:35:38 (SAY-HELLO-TO 'BEACH) 05:36:16 jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:46:52 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@64.55.144.103] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:47:26 *sykopomp* jumps on the bandwagon. 05:47:29 Morning, beach 05:49:18 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:53:44 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:01:15 -!- dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-174.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:01:18 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-174.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:05:51 Where's a good lisp "quick reference" to its functions? :D 06:06:45 Quadrescence: Do you want to look up function documentation, or do you want an index of concepts and the functions related to them? 06:07:06 Either way you might start at lispdoc.com. 06:07:19 A map between functions to their meaning. 06:08:10 jfm3: Lookin' good. 06:08:30 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a6f-133.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:08:47 Sure. Have a look at http://jfm3-repl.blogspot.com/2007/12/defun-lispdoc.html if you want a way to make emacs look stuff up for you when you move the cursor over it and type 'C-h l'. 06:10:34 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a94-227.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:11:02 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 06:11:55 After reading about all of this lisp and seeing lisp, I wonder what haskell brings to the table. :| 06:12:34 (I've programmed in Haskell, so, I'm not saying this in a way that is incompetent.) 06:13:08 Right. Comparing languages is a dangerous sport around here. 06:13:33 Haskell started out as a Lisp package, if I'm not mistaken. 06:13:57 I don't/didn't intend to sound "flaming". 06:14:05 But, nonetheless, I do wonder. 06:14:08 You didn't. 06:14:28 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 06:15:27 I haven't written any Haskell programs. It seems like the language designers see a lot of value in side-effect free functions and (relatively complex) type systems that allow compilers to reason more about their input. 06:16:11 jfm3: That's essentially true. 06:16:29 The type system makes things clear, I guess. 06:16:43 Common Lisp seems far more general in the programming paradigms it can be used in. If you don't want side-effects, you can (maybe?) write a code walker that detects them, for example. 06:17:20 jfm3: (defun foo () (bar)) <- is that pure? 06:17:21 If you want the CL compiler to not emit type checks, you're expected to get it right yourself, or suffer the horrible consequences. 06:17:23 Haskell is strictly (but maybe it's better to say "lazily") functional. 06:17:41 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-2-163.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 06:18:04 pkhuong: I want to say "iff bar is pure", but I'm not sure what you're driving at. 06:19:10 jfm3: there's no way to know what the definition of bar will be when foo is called. 06:19:38 CL loves late binding. 06:19:46 Right. 06:20:13 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 06:21:44 timchen1` [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 06:21:44 -!- nasloc__ [n=vzloct_2@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:23:02 I want to say that the idea is by putting restrictions on what programs you can write (for example, ephemeral garbage rather than mutation) you can then write a slicker compiler. I don't get the sense that functional languages (in the sense Haskell is functional) are trying to be easier for humans. 06:23:06 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.89] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:23:10 But I could be way off. 06:23:55 Now with a better `j' and an `r' as well: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/fonts.png 06:26:58 Lisp has definite design features for allowing humans to write programs that have intangible qualities such as elegance and clarity. 06:27:42 But really, lisp and every other language is pretty bad compared to Erlang. --> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uKfKtXYLG78 06:28:44 I've seen this before. That movie is pretty awful. 06:29:40 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:30:11 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a6f-133.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:30:11 It doesn't really do justice to Erlang. IMO popularity is correlated with non-fugly eyewear, but not with the actual worthiness of a language. 06:30:31 jestocost [n=cmell@d28851-033.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 06:30:56 *Quadrescence* giggles. 06:30:56 :D 06:33:55 koning_r1bot [n=aap@dhcp-077-250-042-077.chello.nl] has joined #lisp 06:34:17 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 06:34:49 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:35:19 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:47:07 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 06:48:49 trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-242-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:50:02 -!- koning_robot [n=aap@dhcp-077-250-042-077.chello.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:50:20 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:50:53 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 06:53:48 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:31 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-19-233.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 06:58:32 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 07:02:05 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 07:04:43 athos [n=philipp@p54B87199.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:07:52 Coontact [i=Coontact@ip72-207-20-159.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 07:08:12 -!- Coontact [i=Coontact@ip72-207-20-159.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [K-lined] 07:08:52 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-174.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["leaving"] 07:23:19 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 07:23:49 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has left #lisp 07:24:41 -!- trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-242-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:24:57 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:25:31 This is how it looks if I use no anti-aliasing: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/alias.png 07:27:56 ... which tells me that the same font can be used both on backends that support anti-aliasing and on backends that don't. 07:31:07 If I have 0.00567435, how do I round it to 3 decimal places? 07:31:35 Goan: multiply it by 1000, round it to an integer, divide by 1000. 07:31:56 clhs round 07:31:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_floorc.htm 07:32:22 you can probably specify 0.001 as a divisor for round as well. 07:32:52 good morning 07:33:03 hello mvilleneuve 07:33:40 ah, tks beach - I'll try that now 07:35:23 oh boy oh boy, I wrote a factorial function in lisp. 07:35:49 Goan: Though, I assume you understand that in order for your result to be represented exactly, it would have to be a rational number. 07:38:35 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:38:50 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 07:39:46 How do you take something defun'd in an open buffer and throw it into the slime REPL? 07:40:15 C-c C-c 07:40:17 Quadrescence: I usually use C-c C-c. That way it gets compiled as well. 07:40:34 (defun return-random-Weight() 07:40:34 (setf weight (- (random 12.0) 6.0))) 07:40:36 -!- m4thrick_ [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:40:36 I thought I heard C-c C-e :O 07:40:52 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:41:05 beach, I want to have a random value (upto 2 decimal places) between -6 to 6 range 07:41:38 and this function right now is giving me 7 digit precision 07:41:56 Goan: numbers are not represented as decimals in Lisp. 07:42:57 Goan: Find a random value between -600 and 600 maybe. ;) 07:43:13 (/ result 100.0) if you are sexy enough to do that 07:43:46 But never trust floats. 07:44:23 okay the qn is then, how do I make float operations work for lisp 07:44:43 Goan they work just fine out of the box. 07:46:17 It is going floating point undeflow 07:46:39 Goan: you must be doing something wrong, then. 07:46:59 I am doing (1 / (1 + e ^ (- float))) 07:47:06 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:47:49 Goan: err 07:47:51 1 / 07:48:12 Goan: then the result would depend on the value of float. 07:48:30 exactly 07:49:06 Goan: Is float positive? 07:49:17 mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 07:49:26 OdinsGhost_ [n=Miranda@ip-90-186-45-65.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 07:51:23 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:51:27 Lisp is making me unnaturally happy. 07:51:35 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 07:55:15 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.85.95] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:55:19 -!- freelab [n=freelab@58.63.85.95] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:55:36 hrr4 [n=hrr4@80.78.22.172] has joined #lisp 07:56:41 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.128] has joined #lisp 07:57:15 -!- enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:00:03 freelab [n=freelab@58.61.220.126] has joined #lisp 08:00:34 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 08:02:15 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 08:04:08 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.220.126] has joined #lisp 08:05:57 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:08:39 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.128] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 08:09:10 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.128] has joined #lisp 08:09:21 bartiosze [n=user@ejf118.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 08:10:15 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 08:13:41 mulligan [n=user@75-65.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 08:15:51 splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has joined #lisp 08:15:53 morning 08:16:38 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-17-55.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 08:17:06 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:17:23 Would you guys mind if I posted a function I wrote in Fortran, and have someone write it how they would in lisp? (if you know any imperative lang, it's not hard to understand) 08:17:58 Quadrescence: you have a better chance of a reply if you also post how YOU wrote it in lisp. 08:18:39 splittist: Well, that's probably true. However, since I'm learning, I don't want to get into bad habits, etc etc. 08:19:31 Afterall, that's all I'm doing right now -- learning. Not homework nor any kind of assignment. 08:19:36 Quadrescence: quite. The bad habit to avoid here is not trying first. 08:20:29 I really don't want to argue this. If I try, I'm sure someone will correct what I've written. Yet I won't get a "correct" implementation, still. 08:20:58 Quadrescence, are you saying Lisp is not an imperative language? 08:21:04 hello splittist 08:21:20 tic: I'm not saying anything about lisp. But lisp is a lot more than an imperative language. 08:21:21 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.220.126] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:22:03 -!- hrr4 [n=hrr4@80.78.22.172] has quit ["leaving"] 08:22:03 jtoy [n=jtoy@64.55.144.112] has joined #lisp 08:22:13 Well, if someone doesn't mind, here it is: http://pastebin.com/d199306a4 08:23:25 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:23:34 At first when I was writing it in lisp, I was almost mirroring the implementation in that link. 08:27:27 sudoer [n=jtoy@58.61.220.126] has joined #lisp 08:29:04 i'd write it as: (/ (! n) (* (! k) (! (- n k)))) 08:30:45 enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:30:57 hrr4 [n=hrr4@80.78.22.172] has joined #lisp 08:31:43 *tic* does an mirror for fun's sake. 08:33:45 stassats`: That doesn't take advantage of the optimizing there. :/ 08:34:25 Quadrescence: who said it must be most efficient? 08:35:02 stassats`: Well, no one. I do appreciate the response, but, ah forget it. :) Thanks. 08:35:16 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@64.55.144.112] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:35:25 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:37:08 tic pasted "binomial?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70189 08:37:18 Quadrescence, something like that? 08:37:46 tic: that won't work 08:38:35 tic: you would have to replace the WHENs by a COND or something like that, or put explicity returns in there. 08:38:46 oh, d'oh. 08:40:13 tic: also instead of (if (setf kk ) (setf kk )) it is preferable to do (setf kk (if )) 08:40:25 beach, thanks for the style notices! 08:40:36 tic: it's my job :) 08:40:38 *tic* did a too-much translation without thinking. 08:40:40 beach/tic: These are helpful comments. :> 08:40:52 or even (let* ((kk ....) (result ....)) ... 08:40:53 Quadrescence, so in summary, forget about my paste. 08:41:20 tic: and I would put the initialization of kk in the LET. 08:41:21 tic: No. :) 08:41:35 tic: and that of result as well. 08:42:04 (let* ((kk (if ...)) (result (1+ ..))) ...) 08:42:13 good idea. 08:42:27 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 08:42:37 It's a general rule in programmin: initialize your local variables as soon as possible. 08:42:45 *tic* thought of doing that but decided against for some reason. 08:42:49 beach, yup! 08:42:50 -!- jlf` [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:43:38 anyway, doing direct translations is rather pointless: you don't want to write FORTRAN in Lisp. 08:43:48 *tic* goes back to lurking/hacking mode. 08:45:08 tic: That was my point for asking. :> 08:46:26 Oh, I even missed that. Excellent. Further proves I need to think twice when coding in the morning. 08:48:39 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-125-215.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:49:31 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-29.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 08:50:48 mulligan` [n=user@75-30.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 08:51:24 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:32 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@d28851-033.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:52:33 -!- pjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:52:41 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a54-226.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:57:36 -!- mulligan [n=user@75-65.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:01:21 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:01:44 hello #lisp 09:06:38 Ugh, dumb mistake, I tried to call my BINOMIAL func by (binomial (n k)) and not (binomial n k) 09:07:05 s/tried/kept trying/ 09:07:30 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-125-215.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 09:08:07 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:09:36 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:13:43 knobo [n=user@cartman.nextra.no] has joined #lisp 09:16:52 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:19:11 -!- mulligan` [n=user@75-30.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:22:44 can I use find-method to get the generic-method? Or is it some other function? 09:23:27 "get the generic-method"? 09:23:28 what do you mean with generic-method? 09:23:29 what is "generic-method"? 09:23:46 the method specializing on T only? 09:24:00 generic-function 09:24:29 the first argument to find-method _is_ the generic-function 09:25:20 aha.. 09:25:42 Now, I see. 09:25:51 I had some misunderstandings here... 09:25:56 It is cleard. 09:25:59 :) 09:26:40 How do you return true from a function? 09:26:51 (defun blah () t) 09:26:56 tks 09:27:21 "implicit progn" 09:27:54 Goan: also: (defun f (x) (+ 3 (if (minusp x) (return 0) (* 2 x)))) 09:28:20 Goan: also: (defun f (x) (+ 3 (if (minusp x) (return-from f 0) (* 2 x)))) ; I mean. 09:30:28 more smoke grenades, anyone? 09:31:07 some fine points, links to disputed sections in the spec? 09:31:33 minion: chant 09:31:34 MORE SMOKE 09:33:18 I am using a a function that basically pauses at one point, no errors - but just waits 09:33:31 H4ns: I surmon 5.2, and Issue 152. 09:33:42 -!- freelab [n=freelab@58.61.220.126] has quit [Client Quit] 09:35:40 what errors should I be looking for 09:36:06 Goan: your problem description is not clear 09:36:07 Goan: look for infinity loops 09:36:19 Goan: It could be an infinite loop; you can press C-c C-c, which interrupts your Lisps, and then look at the backtrace. 09:36:23 or (sleep 86400) 09:36:25 break into the debugger, and examine the back... what tcr says 09:37:44 I have interrupted it using C-c 09:40:02 tcr, it is not an infinite loop as I have print statements for debugging - and they are not executed as well 09:40:36 Goan: are you maybe using READ? did you try C-c C-c and look at the backtrace? 09:41:48 H4ns, I am not using Read either 09:42:23 Goan: did you look at the backtrace? 09:42:26 Goan: You could post your code 09:43:06 lyte_ [n=lyte@220-244-221-67-nsw-pppoe.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:44:08 Yes, it is an infinite loop 09:45:35 Quadrescence, have you read Practical Common Lisp? 09:45:54 tic: not entirely. 09:46:19 Quadrescence, you're reading it, then. good. 09:46:40 tic: I'm actually reading more from Paradigms in Artificial Intelligence 09:46:49 Quadrescence, good choice too. :) 09:47:46 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:47:55 -!- lyte_ is now known as lyte 09:48:19 Now featuring an `s' as well: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/fonts.png (let me know if you are getting tired of this) 09:50:29 kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 09:50:50 so there is cl-json, which does not do what i need and can't easily be fixed, and i've written a new json encoder/decoder. any suggestions for a name? 09:50:55 Draggor1 [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 09:51:39 cl-jason? 09:51:41 cl-json2 .. ... :} 09:52:03 booh! 09:52:12 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:52:29 cl-xml 09:52:34 amidoinitrite? 09:52:43 beach: hm? 09:52:53 beach, looks a bit, how shall I put it, overweight? the upper part looks larger than the lower. 09:53:28 tic: yeah, they are in fact the same size, but the lower should be larger than the upper for it to look right. 09:53:49 H4ns: what did I say? 09:53:57 Goan pasted "Game Over" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70196 09:54:07 beach: "booh!" 09:54:28 H4ns: yes, for "cl-json2". 09:54:32 I am trying to make a function that checks for the game over condition in blackjack game.. 09:54:38 beach: it's a pain. 09:54:52 Goan: look at defstruct 09:54:58 the first condition I am checking is if both the players have stayed - then the game is over 09:55:21 the second condition is either of the players have scores greater than or equal to 21 09:55:33 otherwise the function should return false 09:55:44 but it is returning true every time 09:56:09 don't know about you, but I'd personally drop the cl- prefix, and try to find something based on "jason" theme that is rare enough to be googleable 09:56:38 lichtblau: i totally agree, but i'm not the creative type 09:57:06 clark-jason? 09:57:18 for example, wikipedia says that greek mythological figure "jason" is called "yason" in the laz language. With the help of common-lisp.net's google rank, I think there's a good chance a "yason" project would end up on the first google page. 09:57:27 gah. "i'm feeling lucky" leads to "jason voorhees", a mass murderer character. 09:57:44 lichtblau: thank you! 09:58:18 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:58:31 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-125-215.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:58:55 OdinsGhost [n=Miranda@ip-77-24-251-127.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 09:59:43 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:59:45 can someone please look at the function and suggest why it is returning true every single time 09:59:47 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:00:01 -!- OdinsGhost [n=Miranda@ip-77-24-251-127.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Client Quit] 10:00:19 Goan: maybe you can rewrite it so that you can read and debug it. 10:00:38 tic: now the `s' is 20% narrower on the top half. Better? 10:00:40 Goan: for example, by not storing your data in a list, but in a struct. 10:00:40 -!- OdinsGhost_ [n=Miranda@ip-90-186-45-65.web.vodafone.de] has quit [Operation timed out] 10:02:17 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:02:17 (: hello to all of you :) 10:02:22 Goan: Please don't use CamelCase symbols. 10:02:32 hello trebor_dki 10:02:34 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 10:02:43 Goan: Don't use EQ to compare numbers 10:02:50 H4ns, the domain is currently owned by a scammer: droa.com :/ 10:03:16 kiuma: i'm not a domain expert! (haha) 10:03:23 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:03:24 Goan: and align forms either vertically or horizontally, but don't mix, like you do with the `t's that are in the COND clauses. 10:03:36 you lought, I cry ;p 10:06:27 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@58.61.220.126] has quit [] 10:06:34 Draggor2 [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:06:55 beach, I like it better. I'm not authorative on the subject, though. :) 10:07:30 beach: not tired. It would be more fun if you displayed both before and after images, to see the progress ;-) 10:08:20 -!- kuhzoo1 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:08:58 All lisp is good for is AI 10:09:04 otherwise it's old and deprecated 10:09:21 Quadrescence, what are you trying to say/achieve? 10:09:39 Quadrescence: you know, if you don't have anything to say, you can as well not say anything rather than babble to the channel. 10:09:40 tic: responses from people with something to prove 10:09:45 tic: Echoing what others say. Otherwise absolutely nothing. I'm just thirsty. 10:09:49 H4ns: Ugh. 10:09:58 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o antifuchs 10:10:20 antifuchs, I was -just- about to say something! Bummer. That makes me the one with low self esteem. :) 10:10:31 tee hee 10:10:53 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:10:55 Quadrescence, trivia: Common Lisp was the first object-oriented language to be ANSI-standardized. 10:11:04 tic: please. 10:11:12 tic: apparently, standardized at all <_< 10:11:17 or so they say 10:12:00 Goan: Here, it gives an error: EVAL: undefined function SUM-THE-CARDS-FOR-PLAYER 10:12:05 -!- Draggor1 [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:14:18 not de-facto standardized, I suppose (: 10:15:05 -!- enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:17:04 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a54-226.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:17:45 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8ac8-168.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:17:47 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:18:31 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:19:16 lispm [n=joswig@e177147251.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 10:19:31 good morning 10:19:44 I have successfully compiled McCLIM with CMUCL on my Mac 10:19:59 I can also start McCLIM apps 10:20:10 but CMUCL then uses 100% cpu time 10:20:21 any idea how to reduce that? 10:20:57 start the idle and toplevel loops, probably 10:21:06 that's what http://mcclim.cliki.net/CMUCL%20And%20McCLIM suggests anyway 10:21:09 -!- larstobi [n=larstobi@195.139.173.50] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:21:27 larstobi [n=larstobi@195.139.173.50] has joined #lisp 10:23:21 tanks, I'll try 10:23:25 thanks 10:23:56 -!- ineiros_ is now known as ineiros 10:25:11 OdinsGhost_ [n=Miranda@ip-77-24-251-127.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 10:26:11 beach: I'm still not convinced by that S, but, unhelpfully, I can't articulate why. 10:26:31 -!- Draggor2 [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:26:51 Draggor2 [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 10:27:09 matimago: I am not sure I would be willing to put in the effort. 10:27:30 splittist: OK, let me know if you think about something. 10:27:57 starting the loops in CMUCL helps 10:28:18 but then there is a lag in the UI with the response on mouse clicks 10:28:42 I can suggest two things: "don't use cmucl" and "don't use a Mac" 10:29:01 I don't know if either of those will solve the problem, but they will increase my likelihood of caring :-) 10:29:03 \o/ 10:29:12 !!! 10:29:17 (incf Xof) 10:29:32 For those who followed the discussion the other day, the `s' is a good example of what would be hard to do with hinting. Let h be the hight of the character and s the thickness of the stroke. If h and s are either both even or both odd, there is no problem. If one is even and the other is odd, the middle horizontal stroke on the `s' would fall in the middle of a pixel, wich ugliness as a result. 10:29:38 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:43 Xof: thanks for letting me know 10:29:50 So when that's the case, I move the middle horizontal stroke up half a pixel. 10:29:51 Xof: not that I care what you say 10:30:06 following recommendation #1 will actually help, you know (: 10:30:19 the not using a mac part is optional (I can live very well with one) (: 10:30:31 You can argue that a hinter, in order to do the same, would have to contain the information that it is an `s' and that and `s' should be bigger on the lower half. 10:31:16 if I wanted additional snarkiness, I'd say that Mac users should be used to laggy UIs 10:31:34 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:31:34 Xof: bla bla 10:31:44 beautifully bouncy and shiny laggy UIs. (I concede that McCLIM is not beautiful, bouncy or shiny :) 10:32:01 Xof: more bla bla 10:32:01 no? 10:32:05 beach: ah, now I understand the interest of your screenshots :) 10:32:24 bla bla as opposed to MORE CODE? 10:32:34 (I'm told that mcclim is taking patches.) 10:32:35 mvilleneuve: good! :) 10:32:44 so is clx (-; 10:32:48 lichtblau: thanks for reminding me 10:32:50 not 10:32:51 beach: would you be able to demonstrate some things related to text rendering on friday night? 10:33:03 mvilleneuve: I could. 10:33:09 -!- OdinsGhost_ [n=Miranda@ip-77-24-251-127.web.vodafone.de] has quit ["I never saw... cu @ http://www.lastfm.de/user/OdinsGhost/"] 10:33:16 lispm: I'm afraid nothing can be won by continuing this conversation 10:33:24 I find the hostility really unpleasent 10:33:25 beach: I think that would be very interesting to some of the guests (well, at least me, I guess) 10:33:32 everybody who contributed to it has lost )-: 10:33:35 mvilleneuve: sure, no problem. 10:34:15 antifuchs: the last I need is someone telling me what computer I should use 10:34:24 bartiosz` [n=user@ejf118.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:34:34 lispm: I agree, and the last thing this channel needs is another of these discussions 10:34:45 really, both you and xof should know better 10:35:38 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 10:35:40 beach pasted "code for the `s' character" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70197 10:35:44 I apologise for letting my natural sarcasm running away with me 10:35:57 (: 10:36:02 Xof: thanks 10:36:52 the threading model of cmucl is perhaps not optimally used by mcclim, or the reverse, which leads to lag 10:36:55 It is clear to me that cmucl is not the preferred platform for McCLIM 10:37:03 I suggest either fixing cmucl, fixing mcclim, or not using one or the other 10:37:18 -!- kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:37:25 kuhzoo2 [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has joined #lisp 10:37:25 (Xof is really suggesting the third option) 10:37:29 I had this McCLIM talk with a simple example and a loading script 10:37:39 I used that script with SCL 10:37:45 Quadrescence: actually not. 10:37:52 I was then trying to expand that script to CMUCL 10:38:00 and then to my SBCL 10:38:42 well, I admire your persistence in the face of compiler refusals 10:38:47 (I still read cmucl-imp) 10:38:54 Xof: right 10:39:13 the compiler had problems for my optimization set up 10:39:15 has 10:39:20 actually 10:39:29 it is a shame that no-one is maintaining mcclim on cmucl, but unless you're willing to be that someone (in which case welcome), it will remain unmaintained 10:40:09 still I think it would be a good idea that McCLIM loads nicely on some platforms and I would include CMUCL 10:40:27 I was under the impression that there is still some life in CMUCL 10:41:01 actually CMUCL compiles most of McCLIM quite nicely including CLIMACS and Gsharp 10:41:25 That's because they are *so* portable! 10:41:39 well, I find that quite impressive 10:41:57 lispm: I think that's part of the reason I am using Common Lisp. 10:42:23 my goal is to show that stuff at the next Lisp meeting here in Hamburg and the guys to install it 10:42:49 Excellent! 10:42:54 but that means that I will need to find the traps what works and what not 10:43:20 since there are some LispWorks users, I would also want to get it to load in LispWorks 10:43:45 oo, that's an interesting challenge 10:43:52 actually, I think it has worked in the past 10:44:22 I'll see if I get it working 10:44:55 the ideas is to get the users on their current Lisp and see if they would be interested in using McCLIM 10:44:57 *Xof* makes a mental note to try not to break everything in the next month 10:45:48 is there a 'main menu' for McCLIM? 10:46:16 something where applications get registered and the user can start them from the GUI? 10:46:17 lispm: what do you mean? 10:46:34 don't think so, no. 10:46:44 that would be good 10:47:10 LispWorks has a podium window and the Lisp Machine has the 'system menu' 10:47:22 application frames can be registered on the system menu 10:47:28 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 10:48:10 so if the user brings the 'mcclim main window' on the screen, he/she could start the various application frames from there 10:48:23 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:48:34 That's a good idea, at least for the purpose of showing demos. 10:49:10 Maybe that should be added as a menu the the McCLIM listener? 10:50:03 there was a thingy that did that 10:50:16 I think we even distributed it as a binary at some poitn 10:50:17 there is the demo-demo 10:50:24 on the Lisp Machine, there is also a command called 'select activity' 10:50:29 I think I'm thinking of clim-desktop 10:51:04 select activity takes an application name and various options (like screen, display, host, ...) and starts those 10:51:12 *beach* can't remember shat the clim-desktop was :( 10:51:31 http://www.cliki.net/clim-desktop 10:52:02 Oh, right. 10:52:27 I wonder if I can find the script that I used to use 10:52:32 probably not :-/ 10:53:09 I can add the stuff the CLIM Listener myself, no problem 10:53:13 -!- bartiosze [n=user@ejf118.internetdsl.tpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:55:12 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 10:55:17 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:55:31 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:55:37 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:58:23 the size of the scroll thumb in CLIMACS seems to depend on the size of the current screens content 10:58:29 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 10:58:49 the vertical thumb is full-size, thought the file is larger than what is visible 10:59:46 kami- [n=user@p4FD38913.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:59:54 hello 11:01:27 even with the small lag I find McCLIM usable with CMUCL, the rest of the UI is doing fine 11:01:51 beach: What's again the name of your Lisp project, Sicle? 11:02:16 tcr: yeah. 11:02:28 Can't find it via google, care to provide its url? 11:02:52 *mathrick* throws rocks at packages that do (intern (format nil "FOO-~A" 'bar)) 11:03:06 tcr: Hold on... They are about to cut the power at the university (which is why I am working at home)... 11:03:18 there should be some immediate feedback in the form of electrical shocks when you do that 11:03:45 beach: Does it include a reader already? 11:03:46 tcr: they did cut the power :( 11:03:49 mathrick: aha, how's that? 11:03:49 mathrick, why so? 11:04:05 mathrick uses :invert 11:04:15 tic: (setf (readtable-case *readtable*) :downcase) and try that 11:04:16 how very modern. 11:04:19 tcr: No, that might be next, depending on how usable that of matimago is. 11:04:27 mathrick, yeah. 11:04:38 err 11:04:40 *print-case* 11:05:19 mathrick: maybe an electric shock should be applied if you try to mess with readtable-case instead. 11:06:40 H4ns: why? I like my symbols printed in lowercase, and the code that does that is *wrong* 11:06:48 beach: Ah, ok. I just found that sbcl's reader is not implemented strictly according to the algorithm provided in the standard. (Its behaviour is indistinguishable from the one in the spec, but adding a particular extension could reveal the differences.) 11:06:53 -!- Draggor2 [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:06:53 what you want is (symbol-name 'foo) 11:06:54 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:07:26 tcr: There is a document, in http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/sicl.pdf and a GIT repository in http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/SICL/sicl.git, but you'll have to wait a few hours for them to have power again. 11:08:10 Draggor2 [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:08:32 mathrick: just because the standard allows you to mess with readtable-case does not neccessarily make it a good idea. i agree that it is better to write correct code, yet i'm not quite sure that one should try to write code that copes with every modification to the global environment that the standard allows 11:08:40 mathrick: Perhaps I'm slow today, but why does print-case play a role? 11:08:51 tcr: for the reader, I would like to implement the algorithm by William Clinger for reading floating point numbers. 11:09:45 H4ns: so? The code in question isn't interested in an aesthetic representation of the symbol, it wants the symbol name. Therefore it should say SYMBOL-NAME and not ~A 11:09:58 it's telling lies and then breaks 11:10:06 mathrick: yeah. fix the code that fails, then submit patches. 11:10:07 beach: I'm talking about the basic outline of the reader process (2.2) 11:10:23 mathrick: once you got tired, stop messing with readtable-case and be productive again. 11:10:23 tcr: Yes, I understand. 11:10:25 tcr: ~A is a human-readable representation. SYMBOL-NAME is, well, symbol name 11:10:31 they're not necessarily equivalent 11:10:40 more fine points! 11:10:51 H4ns: I'm just tired of people doing the same idiotic mistake all over again 11:10:51 tcr: I was just blabbing as usual, for the "benefit" of everyone else :) 11:11:08 mathrick: Ah, right. ~A takes print-case into account. 11:11:15 I agree, it's a bug. 11:11:20 mathrick: it is just a mistake for you, not for the majoritz of the common lisp programmer population 11:11:44 mathrick: but yeah, screw up and then demand that everyone who does not caters for that is punished. nice strategy. 11:12:17 H4ns: right. Because relying on incidentally similar representation, instead of the behaviour mandated by the standard is the mark of good code 11:12:44 mathrick: send patches. 11:12:53 notice that I'm not setting the readtable-case to :downcase (despite what I said above, it was a typo) 11:13:15 H4ns: I do. But people need to learn that it's a buggy way of constructing symbol names 11:13:45 electrical shock has the nice property of interacting directly with the primitive centers of conditioned behaviour 11:13:52 mathrick: yeah. people have to learn a lot. it is good to make them learn the important things first and not make their lives harder. 11:13:56 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:14:15 H4ns: it is important. It's a very nasty portability bug 11:14:22 It's not a bug. 11:14:25 yes it is 11:14:26 Most people using format with ~A in that situation know exactly what they are doing. 11:14:35 no they don't 11:14:45 great! another fruitful discussion! 11:14:48 because you don't want ~A of a symbol. You want ~A of symbol name 11:15:19 I've used mlisp myself for a long time and had to fight these issues. The mistake was trying to use mlisp together with software not written for it, not that said software expected a normal lisp. 11:15:33 lichtblau: I'm not using mlisp 11:15:52 * (symbol-name 'foo) 11:15:52 "FOO" 11:16:04 right, but the broken behaviour of mlisp is very similar to the broken behaviour of a lisp where someone changed *print-foo* globally. 11:16:06 mlisp is wrong because it's lying about the readtable case 11:16:24 mine isn't 11:16:29 Some people on lisp want everyone to use ~D instead of ~A because someone could have changed *print-base*. 11:16:44 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.74.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:17:13 err, on comp.lang.lisp 11:17:13 the real mistake is that the reader and the printer have too many knobs. 11:17:25 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.74.197] has joined #lisp 11:18:21 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.74.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:19:07 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.38.216] has joined #lisp 11:19:23 -!- Draggor2 [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:21:08 or too few :-) 11:21:32 tcr: no, it's okay, you can do most things you'd ever want and then some 11:21:42 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.74.197] has joined #lisp 11:22:00 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-125-215.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 11:22:26 there should be a MAKE-SYMBOL-NAME function which'd take care of the details 11:22:34 SiDi [i=a226dace@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e3a36c5c34aa3420] has joined #lisp 11:22:34 Draggor2 [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:22:40 Hello 11:22:50 hello SiDi 11:25:29 -!- SiDi [i=a226dace@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e3a36c5c34aa3420] has quit [Client Quit] 11:26:45 The loaded code expects an incompatible layout for class sb-pretty:pretty-stream. 11:26:45 [Condition of type simple-error] 11:27:02 I get that when loading SLIME 11:27:25 it helps when I remove all fasls, but then restarting lisp causes it again 11:27:26 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177147251.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:27:29 it's driving me nuts 11:27:32 any idea why? 11:28:27 -!- Draggor2 [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:11 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:29:21 Draggor2 [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 11:33:00 ramkrsna_ [n=ramkrsna@nat/redhat-in/x-8b5b83b15d7f5d38] has joined #lisp 11:36:26 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:45:58 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:51:56 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 11:53:31 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:54:25 mathrick: Don't use the slime-presentation-streams contrib, it's broken 11:55:28 tcr: yeah, I think it's that, but I suspect it's _actually_ because slime knows better and subverts common-lisp-controller 11:55:47 causing two incompatible versions of fasl to be created 11:56:03 it happens when you load SWANK via asdf 11:56:05 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:56:12 slime-presentation-streams tries to redefine sbcl's pretty-stream structure 11:56:26 or something evil on that line 11:58:04 -!- H4ns [n=hans@70.91.193.41] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:58:36 tcr: yes, but it'd work if slime didn't bypass normal fasl writing locations 12:01:54 There's no "normal" fasl writing location. I agree that swank's .asd file could be improved. (I don't know ASDF, though.) 12:02:03 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:02:12 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:02:59 how do you debug/backtrace the execution using clisp 12:04:04 lispm [n=joswig@e177147251.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:04:10 Goan: Clisp comes with comprehensive implementation notes; presumably, they cover how to use clisp's debugger. 12:04:48 tcr: but it does something special to force its own layout and thus breaks common-lisp-controller. Because it writes fasls under ~/.slime// 12:14:39 kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:41d0:1:cc00:1c:c0ff:fe14:8543] has joined #lisp 12:16:32 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-34-186.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:19:19 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:20:28 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 12:21:19 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:23:10 -!- drwhen|away is now known as drwhen 12:23:25 H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:25:30 is it platform/os portable to use cl-uri to access a filesystem ? 12:28:19 I need to compute (/ '1 (+ '1 (exp (* -1 (/ y 10))) 12:28:38 and it is giving me floating point underflow 12:29:12 Goan: not that it helps, but you do not need to quote numbers. 12:29:30 sure H4ns, removed quotes 12:30:23 it is giving 8.421716E-5 12:31:10 attila_lendvai: compiling cl-syntax-sugar hangs SBCL 12:34:43 Goan: I don't know what Y is there. 12:34:49 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.128] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 12:34:50 is there a lovely parsing tool for lisp (so I can parse another language in lisp using some simple rules) ? 12:35:12 [1]wormil [n=wormil@c-76-110-240-129.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:35:15 -!- [2]wormil [n=wormil@c-76-110-240-129.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:35:37 PissedNumlock: http://www.cliki.net/parser 12:35:45 y is -41.331955 12:36:09 oh thanks 12:36:10 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 12:36:10 :) 12:36:12 keeps on changing to random values - and I scale it down by dividing it by 10 12:36:38 Goan: try -41.331955d0 12:37:08 you mean try hardcoding the y value? 12:37:32 Goan: no. i mean using a double. that will give you more range for valid values of y 12:37:44 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has joined #lisp 12:37:47 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 12:38:01 ah so while I am computing y how do i ensure that I am using double 12:38:23 y = (* (+ 1 ......)) 12:38:27 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:39:01 use 1.0d0 as constant? someone may be able to give you more precise advice. 12:39:06 (someone else) 12:40:03 *hefner* wonders if it's possible to fix that mcclim issue in cmucl 12:40:14 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:40:49 having never considered it, I've long thought that cmucl multiprocessing should just be declared hopeless, and treat it as a single threaded lisp by mcclim 12:41:52 did lispm say he runs cmucl on a mac? does cmucl on macos even support multiprocessing? 12:41:55 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 12:42:05 it does 12:42:15 lispm: uh, is that x86? 12:42:18 yes 12:42:22 very nice! 12:42:29 that would replace bug reports about lag with bug reports about demodemo hanging when a demo is selected and IIRC also context menus being broken 12:42:58 but perhaps those are more fixable than cmucl mp's context switching 12:43:30 generally it isn't that bad 12:43:41 multiprocessing works reasonably fine 12:43:49 i don't think that it is bad at all 12:43:52 Goan: see 12:43:52 cltl2-section Precision, Contagion, and Coercion 12:43:53 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node122.html 12:43:55 and 12:43:55 clhs coerce 12:43:59 (quite to the contrary) 12:43:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_coerce.htm 12:44:27 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:46:05 an advantage for the Mac is that the usual CMUCL version supports MP, where for SBCL it has to be recompiled and I read that MP is not really recommended with SBCL and Mac OS X 12:46:28 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:47:05 I've installed SBCL in the 64bit version 12:47:30 *hefner* did not know CMUCL supported OS X 12:47:49 I didn't see much performance improvements, is my impression wrong? 12:48:11 lispm: why should 64bit be "improving performance"? 12:48:23 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.74.197] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:48:28 <_deepfire> btw, why isn't SBCL defaulting to :sb-thread on adequately supported platforms? 12:48:46 _deepfire: because threads are considered an experimental feature. 12:48:52 because the 64bit version of the x86 architecture has more registers, more FP units, better SSE, etc. 12:48:53 kib2 [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:58 -!- kib2 [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Client Quit] 12:49:29 <_deepfire> H4ns, do you know why it is so? 12:49:30 lispm: ok, but it also needs to move twice as much data for pointers. 12:50:04 lispm: that mostly pays off for numerics. 12:50:05 _deepfire: certainly - it is not known whether the sbcl runtime is completely thread safe, and there have been bugs which showed that certain points are not. 12:50:15 otoh 64bit does cons less for 32bit values 12:50:23 _deepfire: I asked whether it's time to revise this policy on sbcl-devel recently, and I am not sure there was any consensus. 12:50:29 mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 12:50:37 kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:12 the 32bit x86 usually is thought to have too few general purpose registers by Lisp implementors,IIRC 12:51:14 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.74.197] has joined #lisp 12:52:16 Jarvellis [n=jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:52:45 <_deepfire> There might be that Linux-like policy of enabling it (as soon as bugs become hard to find), in hopes that the wider user-base will report the rest of bugs. 12:53:21 _deepfire: a good first step would probably be to understand the bugs on darwin. 12:53:25 make sure not to confuse ease of implementation (partitioned register set for tagged vs. untagged data) with run-time speed (more registers to avoid spilling to the stack) 12:53:30 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 12:54:57 (although a medium-sized register set might still make it hard to allocate many registers when partioning them naively) 12:55:19 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:56:06 -!- heHATEme is now known as vorian 12:58:39 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 12:59:59 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 13:01:05 Goan pasted "turn problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70202 13:01:47 I am trying to play a blackjack game, using two players 13:02:00 mathrick: which version? a fresh one here works fine... stale fasls, etc? 13:02:31 this function was giving correct current-states with turn field being alternated to 0 and 1 13:02:41 but now it is only giving 0 13:02:49 Goan: return-current-state/return-current-stateS 13:03:16 Goan: the variable is not useful anyway, just remove it altogether. a function always returns the last expression evaluated. 13:03:51 okay H4ns 13:03:53 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:08 Goan: while you are at it, remove the quotes from numbers as well. 13:04:13 sure 13:04:42 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:05:04 -!- Modius [n=Modius@99.179.97.138] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 13:05:27 okay removed the return-list and the quotes 13:06:29 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:07:46 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:07:49 Goan: your cond clause bodies only contain one expression and only a true/false case. use IF in such cases 13:08:41 Goan: and: i would make the function call make-instance and perform the conditional operations in the argument list. you are duplicating a lot of code the way you do it, which is hard to read and maintain 13:09:21 locklace: Is there a particular reason why you reference cltl2? 13:09:54 Goan: And it seems the situation would be symmetric, right, so that if you had an object representing each player, you could just swap the objects and eleminate half the cases. 13:09:56 locklace: Cltl2 deviates from the standard. 13:10:32 beach, I need to consider all four cases when each of the player could decide to Hit/Stay 13:11:00 hmm 13:11:13 not decide per say, but output value generated by activation function 13:11:18 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:11:28 *attila_lendvai* heads to the logs 13:11:50 H4ns, do you think I am not executing clauses in Cond form here? 13:12:14 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:12:32 correctly executing* 13:12:49 Goan: i am not that deeply following what you do. i am just commenting in general, and in general, (if pred (foo) (bar)) is prefered to (cond (pred (foo)) (t (bar))) 13:13:30 Goan: the code, as it is, is too hard for me to read and understand, and i am suggesting that you first refactor it into a more readable state. 13:14:08 oh 13:14:43 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 13:14:54 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp124.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:15:33 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:24:03 Goan: why does the :turn initarg take a list? 13:25:45 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:27:58 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 13:29:40 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 13:32:30 -!- wormil [n=Miranda@adsl-070-155-056-058.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:32:30 -!- [1]wormil is now known as wormil 13:32:56 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 13:33:16 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 13:33:35 -!- Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:33:44 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:37:24 Goan [n=Goan@dilip.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 13:38:26 attila_lendvai: it's very odd. I killed all the fasls multiple times, but it always dies. If not on cl-def, it dies on compiling cl-perec, right after it finishes compiling exports.lisp 13:38:29 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:39:04 it's 1.0.21 13:40:25 mathrick: i'm using 1.0.22.17, but i've never seen such thing happen in the past and i've used various older versions of sbcl... 13:40:54 attila_lendvai: yeah, given that SBCL dies in a particularly nasty way, it seems like a bug in SBCL 13:41:24 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:42:01 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 13:42:31 attila_lendvai: also, why are all of your libs so damn hard to install :( 13:43:01 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.38.216] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:43:08 that, and I'll drop patches to fix cl-syntactic-sugar's sensitivity to *print-case* on you later 13:44:43 mathrick: the only "hardness" i know about is that you need to darcs get everything and make sure you pull all in sync. but i'm interested in anything else than that! 13:46:05 attila_lendvai: yeah, and it breaks in interesting ways if you don't pull everything in sync 13:46:41 and cl-syntactic-sugar doesn't fail outright when you have non-standard *print-case*, instead everything that depends on it fails in interesting and non-obvious ways 13:47:04 attila_lendvai: and why are you using things like #t and #f? 13:47:12 that's just silly 13:48:20 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:48:53 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:49:40 mathrick: readability. using nil as false and the empty list (and whatever else pops to mind) hides the intention of the code 13:49:43 as silly as it is to use a non-standard *print-case* :) 13:50:20 and *print-case* is just a bug. i've never changed that, so expect breakage all around our codebase... :) 13:50:32 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:52:01 athos_ [n=philipp@p54B859BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:53:14 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 13:53:29 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 13:53:59 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 14:00:12 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:01:46 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 14:02:14 crod [n=cmell@cb8a18-221.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:02:22 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cb8ac8-168.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:02:34 Now with a `t' as well: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/fonts.png 14:03:17 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-29.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:03:20 The `j', the `f', and the `t' use the same code for the hook now. 14:03:37 Nice #\t. I just noticed the distance between r and s looks a bit off. 14:03:56 yeah, I thought I fixed that. 14:04:28 I think I did fix it, and this is just an old-ish screen shot. 14:04:58 Alright. 14:05:07 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B87199.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:05:48 tic: check it now. 14:06:14 tic: I could probably move the tf combination closer together as well. 14:06:51 beach, was just going to nag you about that. 14:07:01 Yes, much better. 14:08:45 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:08:57 It's nice how relatively readable the 6pt rendering is (the second from the top). 14:10:04 Yeah. Only "ko" is slightly problematic, but legible. 14:10:28 jfm3` [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:48 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:10:49 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 14:11:03 I agree, yes. I could have been a little bit too zealous in moving the k and the o closer together. 14:11:35 beach: a friend of mine recently told me about a forum for type designers 14:11:52 beach: I think there is a lot of constructive criticism to be had there 14:12:01 And this is Metafont-powered-by-Common-Lisp so I could make a different decision for different sizes. 14:12:05 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 14:12:06 if you want, I can send you the link when I next meet him 14:12:17 antifuchs: sure, that would be nice. 14:12:46 antifuchs: (though I am not sure I qualify as a `type designer', even though that's kind of what I am doing here) 14:12:49 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 14:13:11 beach: well, you're making a tool for them; they may be interested in how their work looks when processed with it (: 14:13:26 antifuchs: good point! 14:19:41 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:22:00 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:25:08 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.216] has joined #lisp 14:25:36 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 14:25:38 -!- jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:25:54 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26:09 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:27:16 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:29:03 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:29:06 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a18-221.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:29:34 crod [n=cmell@cb8a69-136.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:29:37 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 14:33:08 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 14:34:50 antgreen [n=green@localhost.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:26 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F647.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:52 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 14:40:02 dthomp [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 14:42:06 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 14:44:47 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 14:45:16 OdinsGhost_ [n=Miranda@ip-90-187-12-228.web.vodafone.de] has joined #lisp 14:46:07 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 14:46:20 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:48:50 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:50:42 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 14:51:37 -!- OdinsGhost_ [n=Miranda@ip-90-187-12-228.web.vodafone.de] has quit ["I never saw... cu @ http://www.lastfm.de/user/OdinsGhost/"] 14:55:42 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:58:16 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:58:31 Is this a bug of cl-cont? http://paste.lisp.org/display/70211 14:58:38 beach: readability is based on the recognition of the first and last letter, and of the general pattern of the word. 14:59:08 -!- hrr4 [n=hrr4@80.78.22.172] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:59:43 matimago: Well, then, for testing the legibility of a font, one had better not use words. 15:00:40 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:49 Perhaps, yes. 15:00:50 tomoyuki28jp: RTFM. cl-cont implements delimited continuations, which are actual functions that return values. 15:01:16 But keep the same digraph or trigraph ratios to avoid optimizing irrelevant letter combinations. 15:03:10 pkhuong: Thanks for the info. Where can I read the manual? I could not find out one. 15:04:34 pkhuong: Do you think cl-cont is the best implementation of continuations in cl or would you recommend any others? 15:05:49 it is the only implementation of delimited continuations that is packaged as a CL library, AFAIK 15:06:00 I would personally recommend just writing your program in CPS, rather than relying on an incomplete and semantically-leaky code-walking transformer. 15:06:26 yeah, what chandler says. LESS MAGIC 15:06:39 cmm: chandler: Thanks for your advice. 15:06:41 minion: chant 15:06:42 MORE READABLE 15:06:48 MORE HANDWAVING 15:07:33 toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 15:08:44 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 15:09:18 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 15:10:29 Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:10:35 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:10:58 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:15 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:12:02 Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 15:12:16 SYSTEM::%EXPAND-FORM: (EQ (TURN CURRENT-STATE) '0) should be a lambda expression - Current-State is a defclass and turn is one of the attributes 15:13:03 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:13:35 Goan: that way, we can't help. paste some context to lisppaste, the source and the whole error message 15:13:46 sure H4ns 15:14:44 Goan: How come you don't answer questions? 15:15:21 beach, qns from other people you mean? 15:15:27 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 15:15:27 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has quit [] 15:15:36 -!- ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:15:47 hkBst_ [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 15:15:56 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 15:18:48 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 15:19:53 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:19:55 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.112.216] has quit [] 15:20:13 -!- hkBst_ is now known as hkBst 15:22:34 cmm: there's cl-delico too 15:23:43 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 15:24:06 Zoba pasted "Variable in String" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70213 15:25:06 chandler,cmm: re CPS and code-walking -- how would you write the moral equivalent of Screamer without that behind-the-scenes MAGIC? 15:25:41 I'm using OpenCyc with Lisp, and a sending it messages through sockets. I've pasted a simplified version of my problem. Basically I want to send a function a name, and then that function send a command to Cyc, however I can't get the quotes correct so that the name is correctly placed into the conneciton to cyc 15:26:45 Zoba: you could use (concatenate 'string "(fi-create \"" name "\")") 15:26:46 CPS by hand? well... i'd rather fix a lib or write a new one than doing all the cps by hand that we use... 15:27:01 Zoba: or (format nil "(fi-create ~S)" name) 15:27:35 tomoyuki28jp: cl-delico only has interpreted continuations for now 15:27:40 thanks H4ns, I'll go try those now 15:27:53 cyc will return you a #$NameUsed .. make sure you createda hash-dollar reader for the return result 15:29:42 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.88.5] has joined #lisp 15:30:40 or do a (concatenate 'string "(constant-name (find-or-create-constant \"" name "\")"))) 15:30:46 oudeis [n=oudeis@DSL217-132-172-174.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:30:47 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 15:31:01 -!- mtd [n=martin@ops-13.xades.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:33 hrr4 [n=hrr4@80.78.22.172] has joined #lisp 15:32:55 Goan: No, from me. I asked you why the :turn initarg takes a list. 15:33:01 wlr: depends on the degree of desired moral equivalence :) 15:33:06 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 15:33:33 I'm kind of leary of Screamers because it code-walks, for instance 15:33:41 *Screamer 15:33:58 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:34:17 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users172.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:34:31 iter also code walks, and it's broken at that... fails to update the environment with its own bindings 15:34:48 woo! Thanks H4ns, I got it working with the format one 15:36:07 cl-walker is very useful for us, though. it's on the very end of my todo to create an iter clone that uses cl-walker and is easier to extend 15:37:08 jlf` [n=user@nmd.sbx05975.petalca.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 15:38:17 beach, I found out the problem eventually =) 15:38:29 my beginner mistake 15:39:29 Goan: still, it is polite to answer questions from others, especially, since you yourself want answers, and since the question was in order to help you. 15:40:10 cmm: what is it about code-walking that causes you to be leery? can it be phrased in terms soundness and completeness, perhaps? 15:41:12 beach: is that a font you designed from scratch or an existing metafont font (or whatever they're called)? 15:41:45 Modius [n=Modius@99.179.97.138] has joined #lisp 15:43:57 slyrus_: I designed it. Existing fonts are not meant for low-resolution devices (there might be some, but I am unaware of any), and besides, I only implement a subset of Metafont, so considerable translation would be required. 15:44:08 slyrus_: Why do you ask? 15:45:10 just curious. it looks nice! there are clearly some things to fix, but it looks good. 15:45:36 Thanks! I am fairly pleased with the result, but, like you said, it needs tuning. 15:45:37 in the interest of turtles all the way down, it would be nice to use mcclim with a designed-in-lisp font :) 15:46:05 slyrus_: Yes, that's part of the reason to see what's possible. 15:46:18 beach, ah - I'll surely try to answer questions from now on 15:46:34 with whatever little knowledge I have 15:47:09 Goan: in the case I was referring to, it was a question about the code you pasted. Surely, you must have som knowledge about that, or you wouldn't have posted it. 15:47:16 :-) 15:47:39 -!- jfm3` [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:48:05 -!- athos_ is now known as athos 15:48:17 -!- kuhzoo2 is now known as kuhzoo 15:48:51 I do have to agree with that 15:50:38 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 15:50:46 envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:53:50 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp435.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 15:56:17 -!- hrr4 [n=hrr4@80.78.22.172] has quit ["Reconnecting"] 15:56:29 hrr4 [n=hrr4@80.78.22.172] has joined #lisp 15:57:02 Spec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 15:57:06 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:58:19 -!- Spec is now known as mrSpec 15:58:20 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:58:23 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has left #lisp 16:00:51 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:09 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:03:28 nostoi [n=nostoi@177.Red-83-37-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:38 -!- jlf` [n=user@nmd.sbx05975.petalca.wayport.net] has quit [No route to host] 16:04:52 ``Erik___ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:55 enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:36 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:49 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:07:54 -!- splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 16:10:58 jestocost [n=cmell@cb8a16-106.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:11:39 -!- crod [n=cmell@cb8a69-136.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:58 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:15:08 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 16:19:09 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B859BC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:19:36 jfm3 [n=user@165.230.132.126] has joined #lisp 16:20:17 I am a little worried about the speed of CL-Vectors, though. It would be nice if someone would look into that at some point. 16:21:03 -!- H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:22:01 For fonts, it's not a problem; they would be rendered once and cached, but a hypothetic McCLIM backend using CL-Vectors would also need to render lines, polygons, ellipses, etc fairly fast. 16:23:02 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47FF2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:24:31 Can someone tell me about having type safety, and function overloading in lisp? 16:24:52 The problem is that it's messy. Rendering a simple triangle by scanline generates a dozen special cases. Convex polygons would have to be triangulated which can be done, but other polygons would have to be divided up into convex polygons (which can be done, but efficient algorithms are complicated). 16:25:19 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177147251.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:25:26 Quadrescence: you may not find in Lisp the kind of overloading you're used to 16:25:28 Quadrescence: Lisp is type safe, unless you explicitly declare that you don't want that. 16:25:43 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47FF2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:25:56 Quadrescence: what is your definition of "function overloading"? 16:26:37 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 16:26:44 beach: cl-vectors was never meant for speed :/ I tried various alternative, but found nothing interesting. But speeding cl-vectors would be great for sure. 16:26:58 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:27:01 Quadrescence: Lisp has generic functions which dispatch on type and form one of the basic building blocks of it's object system CLOS. 16:27:04 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:27:06 beach: A set of functions under the same "alias" with the ability to take in arguments of different types 16:27:21 -!- matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:27:45 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:27:49 (I was just curious about this while showering) 16:27:55 Quadrescence: Functions that you define with DEFUN do not dispatch on type. 16:28:01 H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:28:30 Quadrescence: though you can define multiple METHODS with different argument types 16:28:37 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:28:41 Quadrescence: check CLOS 16:28:47 pierre__thierry: Alright. 16:29:07 http://gigamonkeys.com/book/object-reorientation-generic-functions.html 16:29:21 Quadrescence: those are called "generic functions" in Lisp. 16:29:25 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Excess Flood] 16:29:55 cods: How do you know it was not meant for speed? :) 16:30:16 beach: wouldn't you want to that drawing stuff in hardware (driven by lisp code, of course :) ) 16:30:22 s/to/to do/ 16:30:26 beach: because he wrote it? 16:30:40 pierre__thierry: that's why I was asking. 16:30:45 matimago [n=user@cac94-10-88-170-236-224.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:31:00 cods: ah, you're him! I didn't realize you came here. 16:31:04 beach: It was really just an attempt to understand the algorithm of antigrain. But I was not planning to make it useful for other :) 16:31:06 josemanuel [n=josemanu@81.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 16:31:21 -!- ``Erik___ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:31:44 cods: OK, this is all very good to know. 16:32:38 beach: well, the 'path' part was added later to make it useful, but the low level part is not optimized at all. (As usual, sorry for poor english.) 16:32:41 slyrus_: Maybe I would. I just don't know how to do that. 16:32:53 -!- enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:32:58 cods: You are French, right? 16:33:03 beach: yes 16:33:13 cods: and where do you live? 16:33:31 I tried searching on the Web, but you are hard to locate. 16:33:32 beach: 30km north-west from Paris (near Pontoise) 16:34:02 cods: I'll invite you to Bordeaux some time and have you give a talk if you like. 16:34:31 lnxz_ [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp435.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 16:34:33 -!- lnxz_ [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp435.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 16:34:44 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp435.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 16:35:11 beach: that nice, but I don't think I'm the kind of guy to travel or even to give a talk :) 16:35:47 cods: Ah, OK. Are you planning to maintain and/or further develop CL-Vectors? 16:37:29 beach: I've not used CL for a while, and thus I'm not maintainig cl-vectors currently. 16:37:30 -!- envi_home is now known as envi^home 16:37:48 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 16:38:15 cods: I guess we'll have to ask if someone else would be interested in doing that. 16:38:17 beach: anyone wanting to maintain it is welcome :) 16:38:18 cods: You are involved in some Linux organization here in France right? 16:38:34 beach: nope 16:38:52 Hmm, I thought I saw that on some web site. OK, sorry. 16:39:02 Quadrescence: suggest reading through this also: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/clos-tutorial/ 16:39:15 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:39:28 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:40:16 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:42:38 hum, the '%' prefix is meant to mean 'private' more or less? or it just depends and there's really no good practice about that 16:43:14 xan it's a long tradition, and it means "dangerous". 16:43:20 xan: usually, yes. Something like "this is low level and you better know what you're doing". 16:43:49 ok, that makes sense, thanks 16:44:11 beach: Haha 16:45:03 Quadrescence: Did I say something funny? I don't remember. 16:45:07 -!- toddoon [n=guillaum@mar92-11-82-245-210-60.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:14 xan it's a long tradition, and it means "dangerous". 16:45:26 Quadrescence is still not banned? it must be an experiment how to annoy #lisp the most without getting banned... 16:45:27 Quadrescence: I was perfectly serious! 16:45:38 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:45:47 vasa [n=vasa@mm-152-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 16:45:54 attila_lendvai: I don't mean to annoy you or any other folks in #lisp. 16:46:01 attila_lendvai: Quadrescence is not that bad. I have seen much worse. 16:46:18 it's just a simple logorrhea, nothing serious 16:46:48 Xach gave a link to a bunch of code to print memory usage in sbcl. I'm trying to figure it out and it's full of %foo, sb-kernel:foo and eve long comments in german (!). My brain is hurting quite a bit, guess it means I must be learning something. 16:47:31 German comments in SBCL? Hmm. 16:47:44 if that is actually the code you're referring to, be warned that the output is pretty, but the code isn't 16:48:05 beach, it's not in SBCL, it's meant to be used with SBCL 16:48:10 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:48:13 it's basically copy&paste from something else and doesn't aspire to be the cleanest possible implementation of the idea 16:48:20 xan: Ah, OK. 16:48:22 lichtblau, oh, you are the author :) 16:49:46 Quadrescence: Less talking, more reading please. 16:49:51 there are some code paths that can't work I think, but I guess you are aware of that 16:49:56 chandler: I am reading PCL now. :> 16:50:13 Quadrescence: To put it another way, lurk harder. 16:50:23 -!- dthomp [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:51:23 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 16:51:25 OK, so is there anyone here who would like to take over CL-Vectors? 16:54:04 It's one of those interesting things where you would have to go read a dozen or so research articles in computational geometry, and then implement what they talk about. 16:54:25 My experience is that such an activity can generate publishable contributions. 16:55:04 enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:43 beach: If I knew more lisp, I'd be interested, since that's the kind of stuff I like. D: 16:55:50 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:55:59 Quadrescence: that problem is fixable. 16:57:11 beach: Where does one find the research articles on computational geometry though? 16:57:29 isn't that the g-thing? 16:57:59 Quadrescence: What a great way to learn lisp though. You get a already working code base to look and play with, and you get to hack in stuff you are interested in. 16:58:26 schme: arXiv has lots of pre-prints to papers that will go into journals. Here's CG: http://arxiv.org/list/cs.CG/recent 16:58:27 Last time I searched for anything in google (the g-thing?) I didn't find anything remotely interesting :) 16:58:37 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 16:59:07 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 16:59:08 Quadrescence: Ah cools. I'll look that up right now. 17:00:25 Hey this looks like interesting stuff :) 17:00:26 jso [n=user@67.130.170.131] has joined #lisp 17:01:00 schme: It gets more interesting if you look at all the categories. 17:01:38 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@177.Red-83-37-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 17:01:56 -!- eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:02:06 schme: last time i needed to find the smallest rectangle enclosing a set of points, i got pretty good results. 17:02:14 schme: ymmv, though 17:02:33 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 17:02:46 schme: my memory is pretty bad, so I can't give you the details from memory, but I did some extensive searching a few months ago. 17:03:36 schme: It helps that Subhash Suri, one of the world experts in the domain is a friend of mine. :) 17:03:49 schme: A guy named Perelman wrote three papers covering a proof of the Poincare conjecture (a very difficult math problem worth 1 million dollars and got him a fields medal, which he rejected) and posted it on arXiv 17:04:35 (he posted it on the arXiv just to...well, post it. He wasn't trying to get them in any journal) :D 17:04:57 schme: "triangulation" is another key word that gives a lot of results; most of them are for convex polygons though. 17:05:03 Too bad there's no nutrition and workout section there. 17:05:13 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:05:34 Quadrescence: there isn't much math hitting it though, it's still physics ortiented mostly 17:05:37 wish it weren't 17:05:40 beach: About enclosing points? Maybe the phrase "convex hull" 17:05:49 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:57 salex: ehhh, I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. 17:06:01 Quadrescence: the convex hull isn't relevant here. 17:06:05 beach: Okay. 17:06:34 Quadrescence: the problem is breaking up a nonconvex (possibly self-overlapping) polygon into convex parts for ultimate triangulation. 17:06:37 You guys must have much better search skills than me :) 17:06:49 All I ever find is stores selling stuff :) 17:07:03 paip works fine in CLISP right? 17:07:18 Quadrescence: erm how so? most mathematicians don't use it. Nearly all physicists do (at least in many subdisciplines) 17:07:51 i forget.. but if someone has already did the small alterations already, have a download url? 17:07:57 beach: /me is messing about with the triangulation problem as we speak :( 17:08:06 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 17:08:13 salex: That is probably true. I meant that the papers weren't written to solve physics problems. I know what you mean though. I think you know what I mean. 17:08:16 salex: sorry to hear that :) 17:08:36 beach: yeah, it's ugly 17:08:39 salex: I did read a few articles. What seems to be your problem? 17:09:43 beach: the usual worst case one. I have scattered, non-uniform points in 3D that are measured on closed hyper-surfaces, and need to estimate the surface 17:10:25 horribly non-convex. It's an old problme, but I'm not having much luck finding software to handle it nicely, and really don't want to write from scratch (big job) 17:10:31 salex: that sounds a lot messier than the problems that the articles I read tried to solve, and I am afraid I would be of no help here. 17:10:58 yes, it's the worst possible case, so people avoid it. very underdetermined. 17:11:26 salex: bah, see it as an opportunity to publish, become famous, and then rich! 17:11:29 anyway, i'll bash together som NURB based thing if needed. I'm sure the software is written somewhere, but I've not found it so far 17:11:40 beach: the problem is, it's not new 17:11:44 beach: Let me know how that plan works out for you, please. :-) 17:11:45 just difficult to implement 17:11:58 chandler: I am rich enough already! 17:12:04 salex: Is all you're given is a set of points? 17:12:28 chandler: I need more time, not more money! 17:12:36 Quadrescence: yes. so it's underdetermined. but we can make reasonable assumptions about surface smoothness etc. 17:13:01 Quadrescence: this stuff is well known though, what I want is code for any of a few reasonable methods 17:13:20 *tic* heads home 17:13:32 GAMS isn't being entirely helpful 17:13:42 wlr: [sorry, had to work] code walking worries me from two angles. the first is that it cannot possibly be semantically complete, at least in the cases where the expansion has radically different control flow compared to the surface syntax (so dynamic bindings cannot possibly work right, etc); the second angle is the (admittedly theoretical) fact that code walking is not composable 17:13:47 schme: btw, citeseer is a good place to look for stuff like that 17:13:50 also 17:15:35 eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:15:40 *cmm* runs home now 17:15:49 -!- Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:16:20 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:16:24 hmmm, i might be able to use interpolation plus CGAL routines plus refinement. hmm. 17:16:32 rather have nurbs though :( 17:16:44 *beach* likes NURBs 17:18:15 salex: Hoh. Stuff like what? 17:18:26 chandler: speaking of rich :), if you happen to be in Bx on May 17 2009, you should definitely pop into our spring party. I think antifuchs can testify that it's worth it. 17:18:58 schme: comp geom, most computer science papers too. it's a particularly good resource if you don't have access to a uni library with journal search... 17:19:15 it's got other stuff as well, but CS is covered better than most 17:19:26 often with links to preprints 17:19:46 if you do have access to such a library, try mathscinet 17:19:59 and ieeee xplore for practical stuff 17:20:18 (i.e. implementation/engg oriented 17:20:33 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 17:23:05 lispm [n=joswig@e177145097.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:23:34 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:25:08 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 17:25:50 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-149-0.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:29:42 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-156.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:30:22 salex: oh Ok. I'll take a look there. 17:32:23 -!- Modius [n=Modius@99.179.97.138] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:32:53 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:33:17 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:33:39 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 17:33:49 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 17:33:50 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:34:16 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:35:41 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:35:54 cods: this is the mess I came up with for a single triangle: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/triangle.lisp 17:36:03 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 17:36:16 stassats [n=stassats@ppp91-122-106-16.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 17:36:22 BrianRice` [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:37 -!- knobo [n=user@cartman.nextra.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:36:44 knobo [n=user@cartman.nextra.no] has joined #lisp 17:40:29 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-192-191.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:46:03 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 17:47:17 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:27 gigamonkey: I am tempted to rewrite your book verbatim in TeX just in order to learn. 17:49:03 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-81-131.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:49:23 -!- Draggor2 is now known as Draggor 17:51:43 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:52:35 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-68-92-149-0.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:10 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-223-15.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:23 -!- Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 17:54:34 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:55:51 dabd [n=dabd@85.139.101.167] has joined #lisp 17:56:02 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 17:57:21 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has left #lisp 17:57:38 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:57:56 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-223-15.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:58:18 Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-223-15.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:37 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 17:59:19 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:00:21 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 18:01:08 Quadrescence: hmmm, to learn TeX or Lisp? 18:01:17 Lisp. 18:01:19 I can think of more efficient ways to do both. But to each his own. 18:02:01 I tend to make references or guides when learning something new. It is just an idea of mine. 18:02:02 I saw a port of SICP to texinfo once. All the diagrams were drawn in full detail as ASCII art. 18:02:08 Quadrescence, I recommend the book _Programming Challenges_. 18:03:04 Quadrescence: There's always room for more CL tutorials on the web. 18:03:13 jfm3: using aa lib or whatever, i'd hope :) 18:03:23 aalib is cheating! 18:03:25 schme: I cannot tell if that is sarcastic or not. 18:03:26 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-83-188-217.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:35 And might as well embrace others' hard work! :D 18:04:27 salex: I'm quite sure they didn't use aalib. 18:05:21 Quadrescence: It's not sarcastic. I welcome more CL tutorials, and more CL websites in general. And if you learn well by writing guides... just excellent :) 18:05:48 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@adsl-67-67-223-15.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Operation timed out] 18:05:55 Well, perhaps I'll make a "language reference" sheet. 18:06:03 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-192-191.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Success] 18:06:17 I think someone already made a good one :( 18:06:25 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 18:06:57 schme: Maybe so. 18:07:11 *fusss* just evaluated the new Dell subnotebook with Ubuntu for emacs-worthiness. Sucked! 18:07:37 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 18:08:06 fusss: What's the sucky part? 18:08:23 schme: over-loaded key modifiers 18:08:55 most non-alphanumericp keys are accessed with a modifier 18:09:53 Heya 18:10:12 -!- jso [n=user@67.130.170.131] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:10:17 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-243-81-131.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:10:25 zenbalrog [n=johnnyc@adsl-70-253-174-144.dsl.stlsmo.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:04 (fixable) they use thick window manager decorations so much so that 1/6th of the screen is just the firefox toolbar + menubar 18:11:36 fusss: Hmm. You mean it's not a "normal" keyboard? 18:11:57 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 18:12:08 Second is easy too. Just don't boot X :) 18:12:14 didn't feel that way at least 18:12:23 stumpwm ftw! 18:12:42 Well or xmonad. 18:12:42 fusss: Needs moar xfce. (I use that on my eeepc) 18:13:07 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:13:14 Just thinking if it's a normal keyboard you can just pull in your favorite keymap :) 18:15:19 it would be really hard for me to get used to that keyboard anyway. i strike the space bar with my thumb, and on this thing i kept hitting three keys at once 18:16:20 Why is (let ((x 2)) x) valid, and (let '((x 10)) x) is not? (I don't know the best way to ask that question) 18:16:26 -!- gilberth [n=gilbert@d024112.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:44 err, I meant ((x 2)) in the second one. 18:16:57 Quadrescence: Why would (let (quote ((x 2))) x) be valid? 18:17:30 nyef: I ask because ((x 2)) isn't a "lisp form", if that's the correct way to say it. 18:17:47 Quadrescence: it isn't? 18:17:59 sellout: Maybe I am not understanding something. 18:18:10 sellout: Since the (x 2) is a variable name, it's certainly not -evaluated-... 18:18:29 Quadrescence: Indeed, it is not a Lisp form. LET does not evaluate its first argument. 18:18:32 Quadrescence: You're confused about the ' reader-macro, LET itself, or the combination of the two. 18:18:34 Quadrescence: let can be seen as a macro. it transforms (let ((x 2)) ...) into ((lambda (x) ...) 2) 18:18:51 there is no evaluation there, it's a source to source transformation. 18:19:03 tcr: segv: Mmmm, that makes sense. 18:19:17 so (let '((x 2)) ..) is actually (let (quote ((x 2))) ...) which the let 'transformer' doesn't know howto deal with. 18:19:24 (let is not actually a macro of course) 18:20:22 -!- dabd [n=dabd@85.139.101.167] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:20:22 Right. I hope it is understood why I thought QUOTE might be valid. 18:20:28 did I hear correctly here that current sbcl is broken and if so which is the greatest of the latest? 18:20:32 fruitbag [n=bluefish@78.147.206.131] has joined #lisp 18:20:34 Hey 18:21:06 Quadrescence: it's not. but if i was you i'd not worry abotu it at this point. 18:21:07 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:21:15 Any interesting ideas here on integer prime factorization algorithms? 18:21:18 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:21:50 fruitbag: How big of numbers? 18:22:03 (let '(x 2) x) will have correct syntax 18:22:07 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 18:22:28 stassats: That was actually moreso what I was thinking. 18:22:46 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:23:01 fruitbag: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Integer_factorization 18:23:12 Does lead to wondering if it interferes with the package-lock rules, though. 18:23:15 stassats: it will attempt to evaluate the expression (x 2) 18:23:33 dlowe: why? 18:23:45 stassats: never mind. that was silly of me 18:23:51 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 18:24:30 dabd [n=dabd@85.139.101.167] has joined #lisp 18:24:48 cmm: [i, too, had to divert attention] thanks for your reasoning. but, i'd quickly be in over my head if we continued with more detailed discussions. best if i left it there. 18:25:00 dlowe: no, it'll attempt to bind the value nil to the name (x 2) 18:25:11 ignore that. 18:25:31 Quadrescence, did you look at the Common Lisp HyperSpec already? 18:25:32 nil to QUOTE, 2 to X 18:25:49 lispm: No I didn't. 18:25:52 and you get to save one character and confuse the crap out of everyone 18:25:52 does anyone if any of the Lisp machines had CLOS? used it in their GUI perhaps? 18:26:41 Quadrescence: check it out, it shows the syntax of the various Lisp constructs 18:26:46 fusss: genera has clos, but the windowing system is not based on it. 18:26:57 fusss: the various Lisp Machines have CLOS 18:26:59 Quadrescence, you might want to read more in Practical Common Lisp. I -think- it's explained there. 18:27:06 fusss: Yes, LispMs had CLOS. I don't know that the windowing system was based on it for any LispM, though. 18:27:07 I think it was based on flavors, its predecessors, but lispm knows for sure 18:27:18 (Since they also had an earlier system called "flavors".) 18:27:31 Flavors was used for the window system TV 18:27:40 where was LOOPS used? 18:27:47 Right, and TV was the one on the Explorers. 18:27:52 LOOPS was on Xerox machines 18:28:04 Symbolics then changed Flavors into New Flavors 18:28:13 with generic functions, etc. 18:28:29 Then Symbolics added CLOS 18:28:33 Gabriele and Steele write that, and I paraphrase "the wide availability of S-1 Lisp was essential to the wide acceptance of CLOS" (I might be confusing S-1 and SPICE Lisp) but from what I understand, the Lisp Machines, at least LML and Symbolics were Maclisps? 18:28:43 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-117-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:45 CLIM on the Symbolics was implemented using CLOS 18:29:09 the Lisp Machines used Lisp Machine Lisp 18:29:32 -!- nurv101` [n=askmefor@bl5-67-32.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:29:34 a maclisp dialect, no? 18:29:48 Lisp Machine Lisp is definately -not- MacLisp. It was originally cross-compiled from a MacLisp environment, though. 18:29:48 well, if Common Lisp is a MacLIsp dialect, then yes 18:29:50 i just read Greenblatt was an MITer 18:30:04 Lisp is a marvel of a programming language. 18:30:05 but otherwise, no 18:30:09 oh, they were THAT different 18:30:18 Where could I get McCarthy's original specification? 18:30:23 (If you manage to get your paws on an old LispM source distro, you'll find some really wierd things in the build process.) 18:30:23 Quadrescence: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/s_let_l.htm 18:30:24 ok, they just shared the hardware then, the CADR 18:30:47 fruitbag: ISTR there being a copy in the LISP 1.5 manual. 18:30:54 Quadrescence: the syntax for LET, let ({var | (var [init-form])}*) declaration* form* => result* 18:31:02 fusss: Umm... No. The CADR never ran MacLisp. 18:31:27 MacLisp was more a PDP-10 thing. 18:31:51 CADR was used by LML and Symbolics, both from MIT. LML was in, well, LM Lisp, and Symbolics used ZetaLisp, right? 18:31:52 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:32:00 the MIT derived Lisp Machines were running Lisp Machine Lisp 18:32:15 Symbolics named their version of Lisp Machine Lisp 'ZetaLisp' 18:32:30 nyef: yes, Maclisp, the hackish file-oriented powerful Lisp from MIT (that also used digits for user and file names :-) 18:32:41 lispm: AIUI, the Explorers also ran ZetaLisp, so it might have been named that before it escaped the lab. 18:32:42 lispm: It's not the syntactical nature I was unsure of. 18:32:43 awww 18:33:09 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:33:14 the Explorer from Xerox? 18:33:16 fusss: the other MIT-based machines were from LMI (Lisp Machines Inc.) and TI 18:33:22 -!- bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:33:24 the Explorer is from TI 18:33:26 TI, sorry 18:33:31 ok 18:33:40 Xerox had the D-Machines instead. 18:34:02 -!- fruitbag [n=bluefish@78.147.206.131] has left #lisp 18:34:53 i think I learned Interlisp before Common Lisp, and that was in 2002! 18:34:59 confused the heck out of me 18:35:07 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 18:35:31 nyef: Zetalisp (R) is a Trademark of Symbolics 18:35:42 Really? Hunh. 18:35:56 it's just the name 18:36:05 the Lisp was basically the same 18:36:16 A Zetalisp by any other name would hack as well? 18:37:04 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-45e544a50374fbf3] has joined #lisp 18:37:27 Peter Paine told me that a European company did a reimplementation of ZetaLisp for a Minicomputer, btw. 18:37:54 so there was even an second implementation of it 18:38:40 would i be right to think that Spice Lisp later became CMUCL? 18:38:47 yes 18:40:04 lispm: do you know of this site? http://www.softwarepreservation.org/projects/LISP/ 18:40:34 sadly, the title "preservation" could a "heritage" prefix 18:40:40 could use 18:41:31 bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 18:41:51 jajcloz [n=jaj@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:53 yes, I know that site 18:43:57 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:48:17 benny [n=benny@i577A060D.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:51:23 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:36 I just realized how much easier it would be to make a sort of computer-algebra system in lisp than in C or another language. :o 18:52:48 No wonder why maxima was written in lisp. :D 18:52:50 inetic annotated #70177 with "can't get debug information" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70177#1 18:53:32 -!- ramkrsna_ [n=ramkrsna@nat/redhat-in/x-8b5b83b15d7f5d38] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:53:41 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@static-72-85-235-154.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 18:54:03 nyef: the TI documentation also talks of Zetalisp 18:54:30 lispm: Which would be where I picked it up from. Well, that and Zeta-C. 18:56:29 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:35 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@129.174.88.5] has quit [] 18:58:09 kenzo [n=kentilto@ool-18bb7ae5.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:25 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:00:36 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 19:02:54 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 19:03:27 inetic: Try to place a (declaim (optimize (debug 2))) in the file, and recompile using C-c C-k 19:03:48 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:05:44 Is cl-pdf for generating pdfs only? I need something to analyze, and frob existing .pdf files. 19:07:03 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 19:07:14 tcr, hmm, now it doesn't complain about any error 19:08:33 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:08:40 The repl will accept #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X08087770) but not (lambda () #.(SB-SYS:INT-SAP #X08087770)), how come ? 19:08:42 tcr, restarted slime and now it complains again with the same results as before 19:09:27 auclairb: which version of sbcl are you using? 19:09:50 tcr, could it be a sbcl bug (that it doesn't generate debug information on 64bit systems)? or that it hasn't been compiled with proper flags? 19:09:55 pkhuong: what is the command ? 19:10:17 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:10:45 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-173-52-6-164.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:12 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 19:11:33 pkhuong: 1.0.11.debian 19:12:16 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 19:12:59 Suvir [i=Suvir@121.245.89.187] has joined #lisp 19:13:08 inetic: the debug information hasn't been initialized before the file finishes loading 19:14:06 does the same happen if you remove the call to (foo) from your file, compile + load normally, and then call (foo) from the repl 19:14:28 auclairb: Try upgrading to > 1.0.19. 19:14:31 jsnell, let me try 19:14:34 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-19-233.kosnet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:14:41 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 19:14:43 pkhuong: thanks, i'll try that 19:14:52 There was a fix that might be related. 19:15:07 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4048fc2e8f0ab283] has joined #lisp 19:15:23 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:16:13 Hi people, Actually I just recently got started with CL and I was thinking abt starting with a relatively easy project...any suggestions appreciated :) 19:16:32 it seems synaptic isnt aware of a newer version 19:16:43 jsnell, that seems to be it! 19:17:46 jsnell, many thanks, I was scratching my head around this since yesterday and google wasnt too much of a help 19:17:50 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:18:18 auclairb: you are on stable/etch - get a backport or move to testing/lenny 19:19:15 merlincorey: ok, i have no idea what you just said, i'll ask google about those topics 19:19:18 Suvir, when I started I did a whole bunch of utility functions for factorization and primes. Factor a number, prime factorization, prime test, prime discovery. They weren't fast, but they built on eachother which was rewarding 19:19:45 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:19:59 Suvir, Zoba: Project-Euler? 19:20:04 hmm...interesting... 19:20:18 whts Euler? 19:20:25 the mathematician? 19:20:30 Suvir: http://www.project-euler.net 19:20:38 aight 19:21:27 That looks pretty neat, I wish I had known about it. I just kind of Wikipedia hopped from one page that described something to another topic listed on that page that looked interesting 19:21:36 Suvir, a few geek challenges of osix.net could be interesting, if not, a sudoku solver is also an option 19:21:55 auclairb: sudoku solver already been done by Norvig, in python :P 19:22:10 Now we r talking... 19:22:18 http://www.norvig.com/sudoku.html 19:23:10 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:23:15 merlincorey: already been done doesn't mean not simple interesting project 19:24:35 bighouse [n=bighouse@x-132-204-241-245.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 19:24:58 auclairb: it is less interesting to me, in this one case. Ever since Sudoku started becoming popular here I was apathetic and confused why everyone was so into it. Norvig feels similarly and he solved every sudoku problem so you don't have to! (read the writeup) 19:25:53 merlincorey: The point is to learn, not to have Yet Another Sudoku Solver (tm) 19:25:53 As a beginner...Whts really the advantage of developing under linux with emacs, Compared to something like AllegroCL under windows? 19:26:18 Suvir: Cost. 19:26:31 Quadrescence: Constraint Programming 19:26:56 -!- nik11 [n=Wmadjge@193.253.141.89] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:02 merlincorey: a sudoku solver has been done by a zillion people 19:27:30 a brute force/constraint/pruned search sort of approach is very simple 19:27:56 what's more interesting: solvers for the general class of problem 19:28:03 or: solvers that work like humans do 19:28:23 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-200-2-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 19:28:56 salex, how do humans work, anyway? pattern matching and backtracking w/ only a few variables. 19:29:08 personnally i do not work. 19:29:23 Yeah, I'm kinda broken. 19:29:51 Suvir: I plan on making a general puzzle solver in lisp. :D 19:30:13 Quadrescence: fwiw, i blogged about that stuff last year (it was really about optimization, not sudoku per se) 19:30:17 A "general" puzzle solver? 19:30:19 in gory (boring) detail 19:30:32 isnt that a BIT vague? 19:30:40 Suvir: Yes, cost. ACL or LW is cheaper. 19:30:50 tic: depends. `random' person, or person who does a lot of them 19:31:07 but with a little practice, particularly kinds of constraints i expect 19:31:11 Suvir: Maybe slightly vague. It's really a general "twisty puzzle" solver. 19:31:20 salex, I'm thinking one who does a lot of them. Judging by how humans work in general, I'd think a lot of pattern matching is involved. 19:31:34 you need to work that out if you want to score them reasonably (puzzles, i mean) 19:31:36 salex, but again, the human doesn't map very well to non-quantum computers. 19:31:47 -!- kenzo [n=kentilto@ool-18bb7ae5.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 19:32:04 tic: you can always talk to people to see how they do it, and implement that 19:32:11 it's a simple enough problme domain for that 19:32:13 salex, oh, good idea. :) 19:32:41 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-117-95.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 19:32:56 salex, thing is, when I've talked to people on their strategies I get something along the lines of "take a good square, look at the numbers... and then a miracle occurs!" 19:33:26 I once walked into a store and asked for a cheap guitar. The store owner was violently angry that I would presume he sold anything that was cheap. 19:33:29 Quadrescence, salex: I didn't properly emphasise my actual point, which was that I concur with Norvig that no one needs to waste their lives solving Sudoku when it can so easlily be done in 100 lines of python :P 19:33:42 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-58.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 19:33:56 merlincorey: I disagree. But, you know, whatev. :> 19:34:08 I'm not suggesting ignoring the problem simply because it has been solved before, just suggesting that sudoku is distasteful :P 19:34:13 merlincorey: iirc, mine was about 25 lines of lisp 19:34:20 but that wasn't the point there, either 19:34:26 by "didn't emphasize the point" you mean "didn't make the point"? 19:34:36 jsnell: I did make the point 19:34:57 jsnell: 11:26 on my clock 19:35:06 jfm3, the moment you take a look at the price tag of a guitar and exclaim "that's a cheap one!" the price immediately goes up to the next-least expensive? a store where all guitars cost the same! 19:35:15 I was about to ask if #'sort was stable, when I discovered #'stable-sort. I feel stupid. :) 19:35:28 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 19:35:51 merlincorey: but that point is pretty silly. loads of people like doing them, so what you think about it is irrelevant 19:36:09 fwiw i don't like them either, as puzzles (boring) 19:36:20 (me neither) 19:36:22 -!- _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:36:25 yes they are boring puzzles, to me. 19:36:26 merlincorey: as far as I can tell you were arguing against writing a solver since you were aware of one person havening written one before 19:36:28 tic: I think "cheap" is an adjective some people only ever associate with prostitution. In that cultural context, I was calling his guitars sex workers, and he was insulted. 19:36:40 jsnell: then you didn't read the last two sentences very well 19:36:47 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@x-132-204-241-245.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 19:36:50 All that to say, some Lisp implementations are, indeed, cheaper than others. 19:36:58 jsnell: norvig missed the boat by years there, too... 19:37:08 Guys how 'bout we just all switch to Java? 19:37:19 Quadrescence: YES! ANONYMOUS CLASSES! 19:37:31 Quadrescence, watch it...some may have a weak heart 19:37:33 jfm3, for good reasons! I wouldn't want fine guitars go to waste as sex toys. ;) Tells you something about the store owner, I guess.. 19:37:34 (which can't access variables in their enclosing scope) 19:37:45 joga: I'm well aware. Hah. 19:37:58 merlincorey, anonymous classes are cool. 19:38:29 tic: I agree, though I sound sarcastic. Anonymous classes ARE cool. To me, Java is not ;) 19:38:48 merlincorey, well then, good thing you're in #lisp, where we discuss how cool Lisp and CLOS is! 19:38:48 tic: I have an image of a female using a guitar as a sex toy, or more accurately, as as object to at least partially insert into her human-factory. But I'm sure this is irrelevant to lisp. 19:38:54 Actually, I don't think I mind Java that much... it's the braindead Java only programmers taht I don't like 19:39:13 -!- drwhen is now known as drwhen|work 19:39:23 tic: YES! That's actually somewhat why I am here... I will be venturing into CLOS soon for the first time :) 19:39:26 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:40:15 Quadrescence: I have that picture, too 19:40:46 merlincorey: Not the one I have. 19:41:06 Quadrescence: probably not, the one I have she is using a guitar hero guitar 19:41:30 Good evening. 19:41:33 merlincorey, I recommend Keene's book on CLOS. It's a bit old, but gives a good explanation on CLOS. Practical Common Lisp also deals with CLOS, but not at the same level of detail. 19:41:34 The one I have, she is using some electric guitar 19:41:54 tic: thanks, I shall check out Keene's book 19:42:03 merlincorey, if you haven't read PCL yet, it's freely available online. 19:42:19 minion: tell merlincorey about keene 19:42:20 merlincorey: please see keene: "Object-Oriented Programming in Common Lisp: A Programmer's Guide to CLOS" by Sonya E Keene. http://www.cliki.net/keene 19:42:28 merlincorey, also, you'll probably want to look into The Art of the Metaobject Protocol when you're done with Keene. Tres cool. 19:42:34 stassats [n=stassats@ppp91-122-106-16.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 19:42:50 minion: tell merlincorey about amop 19:42:50 merlincorey: direct your attention towards amop: The Art of the Metaobject Protocol, an essential book for understanding the implementation of CLOS and advanced OO. See the sepcification of MOP at http://www.lisp.org/mop/ 19:42:52 yes I am going through PCL so I will have that as well. Thanks for the great links! :) 19:43:36 merlincorey: While everyone's at it, get Paradigms in Artificial Intelligence 19:43:37 :D 19:43:45 Quadrescence: I have it too lol 19:43:46 minion: thanks! You are great! 19:43:47 np 19:43:51 minion: botsnack! 19:43:52 thanks! 19:44:38 minion: FORTRAN 19:44:39 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``FORTRAN''. 19:48:09 tic: when "Tyrkisk peber" is sold outside Scania, is it called the same thing? 19:48:19 minion: FORTRAN is as FORTRAN does. 19:48:20 i agree - fortran is as fortran does 19:48:31 minion: What is FORTRAN? 19:48:32 what would a bot like me know about fortran ? 19:48:37 *jfm3* cries. 19:48:47 minion: FORTRAN is older than you. 19:48:48 Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 28 seconds is too many. 19:49:06 -!- Suvir [i=Suvir@121.245.89.187] has left #lisp 19:49:51 oooooooh, incf and decf 19:49:53 nifty! 19:50:18 setf is next 19:51:15 nom nom 19:52:44 So, I guess [some-name]f usually implies that the arguments it takes might be mutated? 19:55:10 Actually, it implies that one or more of the arguments it takes is a "place". 19:55:31 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:55:50 mmmm 19:59:11 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 19:59:21 minion: advice 19:59:21 #12000: Looking for a compiler bug is the second-to-last resort. The last resort is blaming bad RAM. It's never the correct hypothesis. 19:59:49 *almost* never the correct hypothesis 20:00:07 I think the F in SETF stands for FORM? 20:00:34 field 20:00:53 maybe not 20:01:27 Yeah, I've had bad RAM a time or two... And, for that matter, as a compiler hacker, looking for a compiler bug tends to be a good bet. 20:02:17 I uninstalled sbcl 1.0.11, installed 1.0.22, sbcl starts fine but when starting slime it says package "CLC" not found. Is this common? 20:02:49 auclairb: you're using debian's bizarro-packages 20:03:41 auclairb: http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/ 20:04:14 -!- kami- [n=user@p4FD38913.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:04:18 pkhuong: to be honest i dont really know what im using, i just followed http://sbcl.sourceforge.net/getting.html 20:07:13 -!- egn [n=egn@c-76-25-206-124.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:07:39 clbuild makes lisp life wonderful 20:10:34 jajcloz [n=jaj@209.6.216.149] has joined #lisp 20:11:32 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:33 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@81.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 20:12:06 auclairb, be sure to uninstall things like common-lisp-controller too 20:12:42 Quadrescence: Lurk harder. 20:13:52 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-211-152.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:18:13 Is it possible to get sbcl 1.0.22 through synaptic ? 20:22:20 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-125-215.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:23:06 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.95.8] has joined #lisp 20:23:27 auclairb: That sounds like something to ask the debian or ubuntu package maintainers, not the SBCL maintainers. 20:24:35 nyef: thanks, i'm still figuring out who takes care of what 20:25:19 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:26:50 chandler: :S 20:30:36 gigamonkey: I really like how keywords are bolded and capitalized within text. 20:30:59 Quadrescence: *LISP* _style_? 20:31:18 (note: using IRSSI that is bolded and underlined) 20:31:25 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:31:38 merlincorey: I don't know. :) 20:32:36 jpcooper [n=justin@cpc3-broo2-0-0-cust711.renf.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 20:35:26 O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-125-215.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 20:37:19 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 20:37:20 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:37:40 hi 20:38:10 -!- tessier [n=treed@kernel-panic/sex-machines] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:38:32 Right, arm port log updated, I'm going to take a break. 20:38:44 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 20:39:22 png! png! 20:39:32 it doesn't count until you have an ldb> prompt on your phone 20:40:47 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:42:29 fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-88-217-20-48.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 20:43:10 Is there any list "construction" macro, like this pseudolisp (make-list i 0 10 (* i i)), which would make a list of squares from 0 to 10? 20:44:15 (loop for i to 10 collect (* i i)) 20:44:59 locklace: Interestingly enough, I happened to JUST read that, right when you said it. 20:45:04 Nonetheless, thank you. :) 20:46:04 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-125-215.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:09 nurv101` [n=askmefor@bl5-67-32.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:47:55 the download link for ht-ajax on cliki is dead. Is ht-ajax available from somewhere else ? 20:48:11 trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-242-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:50:38 -!- _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has quit [Excess Flood] 20:50:49 nik11 [n=Wmadjge@193.253.141.74] has joined #lisp 20:51:21 'hello 20:51:32 'hi 20:51:47 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 20:52:49 fjs, asdf-install works iirc 20:54:53 auclairb pasted "What does this mean?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70240 20:55:12 it means you're using an old version of SBCL. 20:55:34 pkhuong: are you 100% sure? 20:55:40 fjs, http://pen.two-bytes.com/misc/ht-ajax.tar.gz 20:56:06 (that's where asdf-install points to) 20:56:29 xan: where would asdf-install get it from ? Would like to download it manually (I'm on windows and can't use asdf-install 20:56:31 yes, I'm 100% sure that you're using an old version of SBCL, and your bug is extremely similar in its symptoms to one that was fixed before the 1.0.20 release. 20:57:05 fjs, I just pasted the url 20:57:36 pkhuong: so it was a bug, it's not me doing something i'm not supposed to ? 20:58:03 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:58:12 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:58:17 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:18 xan, this link offers hybrid cars to me, does it work for you ? 20:59:19 fjs, oh, uhm, you are right 20:59:28 fjs, I can send you the tarball to an email account if you want 21:01:36 (also, I guess I have nowhere to send my jquery processor for ht-ajax now :)) 21:01:58 xan: would be great. franks-muc@web.de . Thanks 21:02:42 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-1a46304f1a04b901] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:03:16 fjs, sent 21:04:51 jules__ [n=jules@cust-03-55bf2084.adsl.scarlet.nl] has joined #lisp 21:06:10 xan: received, thanks 21:06:18 np 21:06:26 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 21:08:22 how well maintained is the win32 port of sbcl? i know it works surprisingly well for something that comes with such big warning banner. 21:08:26 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:44 fusss: what version is it? 21:08:48 i mean, was it a one time port-and-forget thing? 21:08:53 phadthai [n=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 21:09:10 1.0.19 21:09:50 takes allot of abuse from me (30+ user packages) 21:09:55 I think it's indicative for the level of quality the sbcl maintainers strive for 21:09:56 mib_g5j6on [i=d8cde040@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-26be84ad4ba6ffb0] has joined #lisp 21:09:56 -!- phadthai [n=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:10:22 but the number of packages may not be the key quality descriptor. 21:10:29 how long does it run without probelms? 21:10:34 months? 21:10:39 fusss: then it probably is rebuilt every few versions which doesn't mean it is NOT well maintained, just that it does not keep up with bleeding edge. 21:10:55 ehu: I think we know the answer to that, and we can likely blame the OS rather than SBCL :P 21:11:19 ok. weeks then? 21:11:47 phadthai [n=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:04 ehu: i have some tricky GUI library with nasty FFIs. i have to restar inferior lisp several times a day, unless i buggy code with ignore-errors 21:12:41 i have methods specialized to SAP pointers! 21:12:56 nice :-) 21:13:38 speaking of bloody methods, i gotta paste what's been troubling me 21:13:43 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:13:53 -!- jfm3 [n=user@165.230.132.126] has left #lisp 21:15:47 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:16:06 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-4e599aa0f3def2d2] has joined #lisp 21:18:29 fusss pasted "specialize on make-instance?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70243 21:19:47 what is the difference between :symbol and ::symbol? 21:19:51 does make-instance have only one parameter? 21:20:12 trebor_home: with :: you can access unexported symbols, and with : only exported 21:21:01 stassats: only one *required* parameter 21:21:07 stassats: i know what you mean, no, they're arg compatible 21:21:32 (defmethod make-instance :after ((class application-frame) &rest args)) ...) 21:21:33 thanks - i didn't see it, because all symbols i was dealing with are exported ... 21:22:37 Quadrescence: btw, C-c C-] (slime-close-all-parens-in-sexp) closes all open parens when you're in a lisp file buffer 21:22:48 trebor_home: a good way to learn about a new package when using slime is type the package name followed by a colon then hit TAB, it will give you suggestions and you can see what is exported :-) 21:24:12 elurin [n=user@85.99.194.204] has joined #lisp 21:25:06 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:25:38 No, a good way is to inspect the package. 21:26:13 kg4qxk` [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:15 stassats: wrong specializer: use (eql application-frame) instead of application-frame 21:26:30 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:26:45 H4ns1 [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:57 fe[nl]ix: that's not for me, but i was just going to say that, however it will not work with (make-instance (find-class foo)) 21:27:01 fe[nl]ix: that was me 21:27:14 -!- trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-242-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:27:14 -!- S11001001 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-!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-225-78.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:27:19 -!- e271 [i=[1Xmizzn@panix3.panix.com] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:27:19 -!- dfox_ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has quit [calvino.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 21:27:19 -!- phadthai [n=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:27:19 ``Erik_ [n=erik@ftp.brlcad.org] has joined #lisp 21:27:21 Mynch [i=Mynch@ns150a.studby.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 21:27:27 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-225-78.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:30 i have seen make-instance with side-effects before, just don't know where :-S 21:27:31 _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 21:28:19 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:28:32 herbieB [n=herbie@u15287329.onlinehome-server.com] has joined #lisp 21:30:03 njsg [n=njsg@bl10-152-49.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 21:30:10 maybe (defmethod initialize-instance :before ((class application-frame) &key) (print class)) 21:31:38 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4048fc2e8f0ab283] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:32:42 jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 21:32:43 -!- H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:34:43 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 21:34:44 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 21:35:25 fusss: I wasn't really paying attention, but is there a reason you're adding methods to MAKE-INSTANCE instead of INITIALIZE-INSTANCE or something? 21:35:26 fe[nl]ix: Defining a method on MAKE-INSTANCE specialized on (eql some-class-name) is not allowed, per bullet point 19 21:35:58 gigamonkey: yes, i didn't know enough about initialize-instance :-P 21:36:08 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:36:14 fe[nl]ix: The only situation under which it would be allowed is if you have defined a custom metaclass and are specializing on the class being an instance of that metaclass. 21:36:31 i have AMOP and, truth be told, my eyes skim over the black ink when i open that book 21:37:12 that's how I read too. by looking at black spots on paper. 21:38:01 i think #19 in 11.1.2.1.2 applies to what i'm trying to here 21:39:01 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A060D.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:40:07 -!- kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:40:07 -!- pragma_ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has quit [Success] 21:40:22 jkantz_ [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:26 -!- jkantz [n=jkantz@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:40:31 sbach_ [n=sbach@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:40:45 -!- sjbach [n=sbach@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:40:53 -!- ``Erik [n=erik@ftp.brlcad.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:41:22 What *are* you trying to do? 21:42:19 gigamonkey: write a quick gui prototyping API 21:42:33 I already have CONTAIN/VERTICALLY/HORIZONTALLY 21:43:00 but there is allot of re-parenting kludge when any of them nest 21:43:04 kuwabara [n=Kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.eu] has joined #lisp 21:43:34 Eno_ [n=anon@fl-67-76-215-49.sta.embarqhsd.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:40 i want to be able to have gui elements just "float", and get parented to the inner-most parent dynamically 21:43:44 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 21:44:06 there is also some incompatibility between GTK and DUIM 21:44:16 And what does that have to do with MAKE-INSTANCE? 21:44:28 in one, a gadget knows of its parent, in the other a gadget knows of its children 21:45:40 chandler: what's the reason of restriction #19 ? 21:45:49 make-instance would create two different things. create an instance of the gadget class, and then update the widget heirarchy tree, attaching the instance to the inner most parent if it's a simple widget, or setting the inner most parent to itself if it's a container widget 21:45:59 nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.74.197] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 trebor_home [n=trebor@dslb-084-058-242-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 O_4_ [n=souchan@ip-118-90-125-215.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 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ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 maxote [n=maxote@84.79.67.254] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 zbigniew [n=zb@3e8.org] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 abend_ [n=sasha@076-076-146-016.pdx.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 lucca [n=lucca@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 bunz [n=bunz@unaffiliated/bunz] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 esden`away [n=esden@repl.esden.net] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 albino [n=albino@69.12.222.214] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 andrerav [i=andrerav@tvilling2.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 21:45:59 rumbleca [n=rumble@S01060014bf54b5eb.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:46:03 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.95.8] has joined #lisp 21:46:09 Whoa! 21:46:12 yikes 21:46:19 dfox_ [n=dfox@r5cv134.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 21:46:19 fe[nl]ix: I don't understand what you're asking about. 21:46:21 *fusss* hangs head in shame 21:46:46 fusss: As a matter of style, I don't think asking MAKE-INSTANCE to do that sort of thing is the right solution. 21:46:46 -!- elurin is now known as Guest57487 21:47:19 (reparent-widget (make-instance 'push-button))? i thought it was too verbose 21:47:34 fe[nl]ix: If you're asking why the restriction is there, it's so that the compiler can optimize calls to standard generic functions when it knows that all the arguments are instances of standard classes. 21:47:38 i prefer to write GUI declaratively, like HTML 21:47:46 fusss: No, make a new generic function which does both. 21:47:53 trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-242-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 21:47:53 pragma_ [n=pragma@blackshell.com] has joined #lisp 21:47:53 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-80-232.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:47:53 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 21:47:53 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:47:53 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined 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generic MAKE 21:48:23 brb 21:50:15 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:50 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 21:53:27 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:54:40 -!- inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:58:42 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:02:51 -!- Jarvellis is now known as ChickenPriest 22:02:54 josemanuel [n=josemanu@156.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:05:01 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:38 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@156.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit [Client Quit] 22:07:54 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:08:14 milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.71] has joined #lisp 22:09:52 pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:57 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:11:24 -!- ChickenPriest is now known as Jarvellis 22:13:45 -!- pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:13:57 -!- trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-242-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:13:59 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:55 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:17:30 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:18:13 tmh [n=root@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 22:18:40 Greetings! 22:19:03 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:19:28 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:19:29 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:19:35 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:20:49 rebort [n=robert@178-42-60-212-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has joined #lisp 22:20:52 -!- nurv101` [n=askmefor@bl5-67-32.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:20:58 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-125-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:38 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-50-125-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:38 so do people have a favourite lib for dealing with xml files (mrml in particular) 22:22:17 cxml 22:22:18 -!- rebort [n=robert@178-42-60-212-pool.cable.fcom.ch] has left #lisp 22:22:26 chris2_ [n=chris@ppp-88-217-88-26.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 22:22:35 salex: cxml and cxml-stp 22:22:44 -!- mib_g5j6on [i=d8cde040@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-26be84ad4ba6ffb0] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:23:16 thanks 22:24:21 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-173-52-6-164.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:25:04 pjb [n=pjb@81-66-196-92.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 22:26:08 -!- chris2_ is now known as chris2 22:29:55 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:31:03 hrm, looks like these files don't parse nicely. sigh. 22:32:01 Namespace problems, or worse? 22:32:08 How do lispers on Linux manage their implementations? For example, system package manager, binary download or source download? I have to switch to Red Hat Enterprise Linux from FreeBSD. I always managed my lisp implementations using FreeBSD's ports system. Red Hat doesn't maintain RPM's for SBCL, for example. 22:32:27 worse I think. I haven't looked properly yet. it may be thse are xml-ish, rather than proper xml 22:32:52 minion: tell tmh about clbuild 22:32:53 tmh: have a look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 22:34:59 dcrawford: thanks, I'll look over it. 22:35:53 tmh: I just keep track of my implementation and the small handful of critical libraries I need by hand in my home directory. It basically boils down to SBCL, CLX, SLIME, and maybe one or two other things. 22:37:38 nyef: Okay, that was an option I was considering. I don't to want to miss something that might be easier, though. 22:38:07 salex: Maybe it's actually SGML? 22:39:26 tmh: i maintain my own small cliki mirror. tens of libraries. update when something new break the old something. 22:39:28 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-152-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:40:10 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:10 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:40:39 chandler: worse luck. looks like they're `transitioning' to XML 22:40:54 fusss: thanks, another vote for by hand, although clbuild looks like a thin facade over the by hand method. 22:40:55 not clear that the program is outputting correctly either. 22:42:14 or rather, that the program is using the provisional standard. MRML standar itself seems to have DTD and schema anyway 22:42:29 -!- ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-141-74-106.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:42:31 ivansto [i=ivans@93-136-109-138.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:42:40 salex: What is the provisional standard, if it does not parse as XML? 22:43:37 i'm reading on the standard sight now. this may be an implementation snafu. 22:43:48 heh. statndard has broken link to schema 22:44:37 *fusss* hmmmm, the only linux blackberry tethering tool is a friken motif app! how long does it take to learn gtk or qt anyway? 22:45:06 assumes you want to 22:45:44 you don't want crucial mainstream software in motif (http://sourceforge.net/dbimage.php?id=67943) 22:46:07 heh. 22:46:08 small standalong CLI tools are just fine 22:46:12 if you're going to cater to the fashionable, you'd better write both gtk and qt versions 22:46:47 or just write libblackberry and let people write better GUIs 22:46:51 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:46:59 hjpark [n=user@166.104.224.148] has joined #lisp 22:48:28 we await your CLIM version 22:48:29 ;) 22:48:35 -!- mmorrow [n=link@c-98-193-60-208.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:49:49 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:51:06 good lord. I've never write something in CLIM that I intended to use. :) 22:51:19 chandler: looks like a program bug. dump from another version parses (not validates) anyway 22:51:37 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:51:46 salex: Ah, good. 22:52:07 Though if your produced XML does not parse in a namespace-aware parser, you are Doing It Wrong. 22:52:08 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:53:42 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:54:43 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 22:56:15 ``Erik___ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:25 indeed. but I'm not doing it... just trying to read the output 22:56:57 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 22:57:15 they're doing other craziness... encoding a list of points inside the xml as a text string and parsing taht 22:57:24 separately. not sure why. 22:57:26 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 22:58:01 but since I want to transform those points ..... yuck. 22:58:48 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 22:58:59 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F647.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:59:22 salex: They needed to add a minimum quota of ambiguity to their specification, no doubt. 22:59:54 tmh: off-topic, but why are you moving away from freebsd? 23:00:00 it's pretty annoying, but without reading more I don't know who to look daggers at 23:00:35 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:00:49 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 23:00:56 anyway, dinner 23:00:57 bbl 23:00:58 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:01:16 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 23:02:04 madnificent: I have commercial software that I need to use for my job that only have Linux versions. I need to use the 64bit versions and the linuxulator is only 32bit 23:02:15 -!- ``Erik___ is now known as ``Erik 23:02:44 I've been running the 32bit versions of the software using the linuxulator quite successfully, but now I absolutely need the 64bit version. 23:03:25 kib2_ [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 23:03:44 tmh: perhaps running it in qemu is less work than swapping your whole config? (anyway's it's a damned good reason) 23:03:52 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:04:15 -!- kib2 [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Success] 23:04:36 madnificent: I'm running WinXP in qemu and the performance is intolerable. Actually, I'm using Win4BSD, but it relies on the kqemu port. 23:04:55 -!- knobo [n=user@cartman.nextra.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:04:58 knobo` [n=user@cartman.nextra.no] has joined #lisp 23:05:16 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 23:06:17 madnificent: Believe me, I'd rather use FreeBSD any day of the week, but I've been fighting the commercial support problem for years and I'm ready just to do my job. I'll switch back down the road when the linuxulator goes 64bit. It looks like there might be an initial 64bit version in 8.0. 23:06:21 tmh: didn't know it was that bad. good luck with the move 23:06:54 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:07:39 madnificent: Well, I tried everything not to make this switch, but it's just not doable at this point. 23:08:30 H4ns [n=hans@70.91.193.41] has joined #lisp 23:09:55 I thought the kernel's linux emulation included 64 bit stuff (which is why I wondered about the move) 23:10:31 madnificent: I've seem some traffic on the mailing list about some initial stuff in current, but nothing production. 23:10:46 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@DSL217-132-172-174.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:10:47 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:11:56 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has quit ["leaving"] 23:13:20 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:13:27 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 23:14:33 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:14:55 -!- tmh [n=root@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has left #lisp 23:16:38 -!- hjpark [n=user@166.104.224.148] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:16:55 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:17:56 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 23:20:17 -!- fjs [n=chatzill@ppp-88-217-20-48.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.82 [Firefox 2.0.0.14/2008040413]"] 23:20:26 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:20:36 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-50-125-200.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:20:51 -!- jules__ [n=jules@cust-03-55bf2084.adsl.scarlet.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:21:22 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:32 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 23:21:58 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:25:05 -!- milanj [n=milan@91.150.101.71] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:27:13 -!- antgreen [n=green@localhost.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has left #lisp 23:27:13 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:27:31 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has quit ["leaving"] 23:28:40 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 23:29:11 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:29:39 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 23:30:25 mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has joined #lisp 23:30:25 Dawgmatix [n=deep@207-237-30-94.c3-0.avec-ubr11.nyr-avec.ny.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 23:31:16 _ace4016_ [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:32:32 -!- mjf [n=mjf@r9fk49.net.upc.cz] has quit [Client Quit] 23:35:20 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-34-186.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:27 -!- hrr4 [n=hrr4@80.78.22.172] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:11 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:38:31 -!- kib2_ [n=kib@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:38:55 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-24-10.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:39:26 Is there a way to know which block/function I am currently in? 23:41:22 Yes. 23:41:55 Typically, by looking at the source. 23:42:02 (defvar *current-function*) (defun foo () (let ((*current-function* 'foo)) ...)) ? 23:43:28 that will only work for single threaded code 23:44:07 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:45:03 nyef: I want to know that from a script. 23:45:27 why do you want to know? 23:46:42 There are only two real uses for the information: RETURN-FROM and debugging information. 23:46:43 _Thoth_ [n=thoth@217.217.133.45.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 23:47:15 For RETURN-FROM, it's lexical anyway, so even your script shouldn't need the information if it doesn't already have it. 23:47:37 And for debugging information, well... There are usually other ways, possibly even just calling BACKTRACE. 23:48:01 stassats: I am writing a program in cps style. I want to do thing like this: function1 calls function2, and I want to (return-from function1) inside of the function2. I know I can do it by passing (lambda () (return-from function1), but I was wondering if there is a better way. 23:51:17 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:51:29 tomoyuki28jp: can you actually do it by passing (lambda () (return-from function1))? 23:51:43 stassats: yes, I can. 23:51:57 stassats: Yes, that much is obvious, so long as function1 is still live on the call stack. 23:52:26 (Trivial example: (defun foo () (funcall (lambda () (return-from foo))))) 23:52:58 i was thinking about (defun foo (x) (funcall x) 10) (foo (lambda () (return-from foo))) 23:53:42 No, that wouldn't work, because exit scope is lexical. 23:53:59 yeah, that's why i asked 23:54:34 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:54:39 there's always catch/throw if you want dynamic scope 23:55:01 Heh. 23:55:06 *nyef* remembers DFS return path. 23:55:48 yeah. you're a bad man. Back to compiler hacking... in scheme 23:56:00 In scheme? Eek! 23:56:01 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:56:42 nyef: Feeley would rather that I be annoyed by scheme than him by CL ;) 23:56:58 Fair enough, I guess. 23:59:11 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:59:17 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has left #lisp