00:00:05 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-18-217.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 00:03:46 -!- ccm1 [n=carlo@91-66-159-129-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:03:47 -!- dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:38 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-110.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:04:42 ccm1 [n=carlo@77.23.145.239] has joined #lisp 00:05:19 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has joined #lisp 00:06:33 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 00:06:36 Thanks for the info everyone, and have a great evening 00:06:41 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl5-65-180.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 00:06:46 -!- ccm1 [n=carlo@77.23.145.239] has left #lisp 00:07:14 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has quit [Client Quit] 00:09:35 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:46 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:13:57 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 00:17:08 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:17:22 Guest16557 [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:37 -!- Guest16557 [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:17:42 sellout- [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:23:23 -!- rama_su [n=blood@static-72-64-71-11.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:23:39 -!- sellout- is now known as sellout 00:27:27 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:28:06 disumu [n=disumu@p57A277F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:29:05 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:29:36 rama_su [n=blood@static-72-64-71-11.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:30:16 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:30:31 Is there an easy or common way in lisp to write out, say, mathematical expressions in infix notation? 00:30:44 minion: infix? 00:30:45 tic [n=tic@c83-249-198-47.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:30:45 infix: Infix reader-macro by Mark Kantrowitz. http://www.cliki.net/infix 00:31:03 grmbl. 00:31:28 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:32:52 Erm, okay, I'll forget about the whole idea of using infix. But, I appreciate the trigger to the link, kp--he left. 00:34:37 -!- tcr [n=tcr@a022.reverse.yawsp.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:35:03 -!- yahooooo3 [n=yahooooo@c-24-19-6-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:36:01 Quadrescence, infix for maths? 00:36:07 tic: Yeah 00:36:08 yahooooo [n=yahooooo@c-24-19-6-19.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:37:56 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:48 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:39:28 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 00:39:35 -!- Thas [n=weechat@97-113-42-108.tukw.qwest.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:40:12 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.86.155] has joined #lisp 00:40:27 -!- Athas` [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:41:55 -!- Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:46 Sinden [n=Sinden@nickweinhold.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:42:49 -!- rama_su [n=blood@static-72-64-71-11.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 00:43:19 Thas [n=weechat@97-113-38-116.tukw.qwest.net] has joined #lisp 00:48:50 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:51:31 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-82-124.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:56:25 -!- Sinden [n=Sinden@nickweinhold.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:57:18 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:58:18 cbrannon [n=user@ip68-12-115-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:20 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:58:56 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:00:21 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 01:02:11 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@58.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 01:06:24 How can I have a string span more than one line in my source code, without using concatenate and without having a newline character? 01:06:53 just type it in? 01:07:16 dlisboa [n=diogo@bd214ad3.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 01:07:32 tic: sorry, and respecting a less than 80 characters wide rule... 01:08:02 enigmus_, I fail to see your problem. start with ", write your text, including possible newlines, and finish with an ending " 01:08:16 then it wraps on the right of my editor window 01:09:04 I would like to avoid that, like you can do in C by just putting them next to each others: "will " "append" 01:10:12 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-42422301e1827463] has joined #lisp 01:11:33 *tic* does not know, sorry. 01:12:55 It's possible with some reader hacking, but that leads to its own problems. 01:13:41 nyef: ok. Thanks. It's annoying for long error messages or format strings... 01:16:54 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-18-217.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 01:17:46 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@7.84-48-88.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:20:15 enigmus_: for format strings you have ~[whitespace] 01:26:27 beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-90-183.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:29:26 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 01:31:51 hrm... no built-in hash-table copying function, I see. 01:32:00 slyrus_: alexandria (: 01:32:12 yeah, somehow I knew you were going to say that :) 01:32:37 slyrus_: I don't even use the thing. 01:33:12 but I think you had a similar answer the last time I had a similar gripe 01:33:45 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:35:21 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 01:43:59 beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-72-80.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:44:00 -!- beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-133-49.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:45:15 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:46:06 beach```` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-59-254.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 01:51:19 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 01:52:11 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.86.155] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 01:54:13 -!- dlisboa [n=diogo@bd214ad3.virtua.com.br] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:54:14 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.214.180] has joined #lisp 01:56:12 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 01:56:29 With loop macro, is there a way to skip the next loop? 01:57:13 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:57:43 -!- pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:00:27 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:00:57 tomoyuki28jp: explain. There's various ways to control loops. 02:01:26 -!- beach`` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-90-183.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:01:32 sykopomp: oh really. let me give you a example. wait a min plz. 02:02:00 tomoyuki28jp: if you want to skip a loop based on a condition, you can use when or unless 02:02:15 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has joined #lisp 02:02:18 tomoyuki28jp: or you can do a regular indexed loop, and do stuff based on that index 02:02:53 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 02:03:36 Soulman__ [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 02:05:10 -!- wol [n=wol@c-98-207-129-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:05:45 -!- beach``` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-72-80.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:09:03 sykopomp: Here is the example. http://paste.lisp.org/display/70055 When the current value i is keyword, how can I collect keyword and the next value and skip the next loop and keep continue the loop? 02:09:06 pok [i=pok@tarrant.klingenberg.no] has joined #lisp 02:11:07 tomoyuki28jp: I'm not entirely sure what you're trying to achieve here, or why you're doing it this way. For one. 02:15:20 sykopomp: uhm, my example wasn't good. sorry. What I am looking for is i++ in "for (i=0; i tomoyuki28jp: the most obvious translation of that is (loop for i upto (length list) do ... ) 02:17:17 or something 02:17:22 I don't really use loop a lot :| 02:17:48 sykopomp: that's not guaranteed to work. 02:18:09 pkhuong: yeah. I shouldn't be trying to help here. This is a strange example, and my loop-fu is weak. 02:18:23 Could you explain how I can do this? > or you can do a regular indexed loop, and do stuff based on that index 02:23:37 tomoyuki28jp: (do ((i 0 (1+ i) (max (length list))) ((>= i length)) do your stuff and (incf i)) 02:23:47 +parens in the right place 02:24:33 pkhuong: Thank you! 02:27:33 you can also try and find a better structured way to express your intent. 02:28:27 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 02:28:28 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 02:32:01 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A277F9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 02:36:21 -!- Soulmann [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:37:23 Eh, (typecase 'a (symbol 'yes)) => nil. Am I missing/forgetting something--I'd expect that to be T. 02:37:56 Bah, never mind. I had shadowed SYMBOL. 02:37:57 Duh. 02:41:29 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:00 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has left #lisp 02:48:48 timchen119 [i=tim@kalug.ks.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 02:48:50 -!- timchen119 is now known as nasloc__ 02:49:32 g'day #lisp 02:54:35 hello schme_ 02:56:23 Sort of ignorant/almost inappropriate question, but is there a "best" Common Lisp compiler? Or at least a most commonly used one? 02:57:18 -!- elurin [n=user@88.224.44.54] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:57:56 SBCL is the one I most commonly use 02:59:02 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:59:54 I use Allegro, but my professor who has been using lisp since 1983 uses SBCL 03:00:26 (I use Allegro because my old professor, who has been using lisp since the mid/early 70s suggested that one) 03:04:04 -!- dabd [n=dabd@85.139.97.50] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 03:08:32 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-213-184.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:13:56 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:14:39 Quadrescence: It depends on your use case. I am partial to SBCL; Clozure CL is also a good general-purpose choice, if it's available on your platform of choice. 03:14:47 -!- kenny [n=kentilto@ool-18bb7ae5.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 03:15:30 chandler: Would you mind sort of explaining different cases, if you wouldn't mind? Or is there a reference/comparison I should read? 03:15:38 I am searching for a comparison right now. 03:17:49 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:18:18 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 03:18:48 <_3b> Quadrescence: well, platform is most important issue, if it doesn't run, it isn't 'best' :) 03:18:51 http://common-lisp.net/~dlw/LispSurvey.html might be a starting point, don't know how up-to-date it is. 03:19:25 <_3b> Quadrescence: and some implementations vary features between platforms they do support, like SBCL doesn't support threads everywhere it runs 03:19:52 I am running Linux on an x86 proc 03:19:56 Heh. Apparently, the only implementations that target ARM are GCL and clisp. 03:20:12 Definately going to have to fix that. 03:20:23 nyef: That was what I noticed too. 03:20:33 <_3b> cool, last time i tried, neither would compile on my arm as far as i could tell 03:20:47 nyef: When you have that fixed you will be my hero. 03:21:02 _3b: clisp compiles on arm just fine for me. 03:21:25 <_3b> schme_: yeah, looked like a transient problem, hadn't tried again yet though 03:21:40 Oh ok :) 03:21:59 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:08 schme_: If I start putting stuff in public source control, are you willing and able to join in? 03:23:43 (Or, perhaps more to the point, at what point are you willing and able to join in?) 03:23:57 nyef: If there was anything I could contribute, ya. But my knowledge of anything about implementing these kinds of things is just about 0 :) I suppose I'd learn. 03:24:16 You any good at ARM ASM? 03:24:19 I did actually start browsing the sbcl internals though. 03:25:14 For some value of good. :) I have been hacking around in it at intervals, but I wouldn't call me terribly good. 03:25:21 (atleast extremely rusty) 03:26:28 Yeah, well, I was blindsided today by the existance of LDRSH and friends, so I'm not really up to speed on it myself. 03:26:51 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:28:04 I have some book on it here so I could probably unrust myself quite fast though. Still not what I personally would call good :) 03:28:31 But if I can contribute anything I'm willing and somewhat able (these darned 24hr days are too short!) 03:28:53 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:13 That's odd. someone at the door at 4 am. 03:29:14 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:29:42 Fair enough. I'm still not at the point where I can really accept help yet, but I might be in a week or two. 03:30:52 sudoer [n=jtoy@58.62.8.227] has joined #lisp 03:31:16 -!- eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:32:15 anyone use lispworks? :O 03:32:50 I'm sure a few people do, and maybe even one or two #lisp regulars. 03:35:57 Right, I'm off to bed. 03:35:59 G'night all. 03:42:24 would it be considered normal for RANDOM with a float argument to cons? 03:43:20 weird. 03:43:28 hugod_: I don't understand the question :( 03:44:37 schme_: calling random to generate float numbers conses memory. That surprised me 03:45:43 OH! 03:45:43 -!- shiki9 [n=kenroy@76.76.163.130] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:45:55 hugod_: Sorry there, it makes perfect sense now. But I just woke up here :) 03:47:22 schme_: It's only 32 bytes per call, but it adds up. Not sure if it is a real problem or not. 03:47:49 hugod_: What lisp are you on? 03:48:03 sbcl 03:48:09 on mac and windows 03:48:20 Hmm.. it doesn't seem to cons at all for me. 03:48:39 1.0.17 and 1.0.19 03:49:25 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 03:49:34 seems to be in make-double-float 03:49:43 I tried (time (dotimes (i 10000000)) (random 10000.0)). It claims 0 bytes were consed. 03:50:18 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.214.180] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:50:49 schme_: on x86-64, single floats are immediate. 03:51:21 strange, same here. sb-profile was saying otherwise 03:51:45 pkhuong: I'm on x86-32 here. 03:53:18 *schme_* looks at profile. 03:53:19 yikse how does one use this baby? 03:53:31 -!- Zoba [n=Zoba@wva4418rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:54:40 Cool. The float is created in place, so no consing needed, unless you store it in a closed over binding/undeclared variable or return it. 03:54:47 hugod_ pasted "random" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70060 03:55:55 pkhuong: aah :) 03:58:20 hugod_: I think it's the summing that is consing. 03:58:46 right, you didn't declare the type of the accumulator. 04:00:19 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-76-104-2-182.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:00:59 shiki9 [n=kenroy@76.76.162.184] has joined #lisp 04:01:13 -!- beach```` is now known as beach 04:01:29 Good morning. 04:01:49 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:02:48 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:58 mornin' beach 04:03:11 schme_: Up early? 04:03:31 pkhuong, schme_: I'll get the hang of the optimiser eventually. Thanks for looking. 04:03:35 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:03:56 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.62.6.102] has joined #lisp 04:04:27 If you instead (loop repeat num-trials summing (random 1d0) of-type double-float), the loop doesn't cons. Otherwise it conses one boxed double-float (16 bytes, 8 for header+filler on non 64-bit and 8 for the double) to pass to GENERIC-+, and another for the addition's return value. 04:04:53 Anyone know of an available .deb for the latest sbcl? 04:05:20 Quadrescence: Install it from the tarball at Sourceforge. 04:05:29 beach: Alriiiiiiight. 04:06:10 beach: 3:30 . So 3 hrs of sleep. And then BAM! Something is making lotsa noise like there is a burglar in the house or something. Turns out it was one of the cats trying to open a door. 04:06:28 pkhuong: thanks, now I just need to work out what is amiss in my original code 04:06:31 schme_: That cat might be getting too smart. 04:07:36 hugod_: if it's not too large, you can paste it. I don't think there's any magic trick to understanding how to get Python to do what you want, except experience and trial & example/error. 04:07:46 beach: It used to be real good at open doors in the last flat we lived in. Those doors were easier to open though. He jumps up and hangs on the handle with his front paws - pulling that down - and kicks the wall next to the door with one of his hind legs. 04:08:07 beach: cute, but not a nice way to wake up :) 04:09:22 Huh. 04:09:32 I've reread that 4 times now. Python? :) 04:09:40 schme_: Python-the-compiler. 04:09:41 pkhuong: thanks for the offer. I'll try and work it out first - I'll learn better that way. 04:09:45 Oh! 04:09:58 Well I learn something every day it seems. 04:13:12 That's a good thing. The day when I no longer learn something will be very sad indeed. 04:13:24 For people who don't like Emacs, anybody interested in making a "better" REPL based on Swank? It would also work with various Lisp implementations. 04:13:53 enigmus_: get hacking, reach a critical mass of users, win. 04:14:18 pkhuong: how, I don't want to win. Just make my own life easier. It's a very personal thing. 04:14:28 My god. I google python +common lisp +compiler, to find what this is all about. 04:14:41 And I find CLPython, Python implemented in Common Lisp :) 04:15:00 schme_: did you find python.com? 04:15:07 No. 04:15:39 Not on the first page anyway 04:15:53 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@58.62.8.227] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:16:30 Right. time for work. Have a good one gals and guys :) 04:16:41 schme_: sorry.. 04:24:17 -!- mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:26:35 schme_: Python is the name of the compiler that was created for CMUCL and that was inherited by SBCL. 04:26:43 time to rename it in my opinion. 04:27:52 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:27:53 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:35:09 etfb [n=kvirc@ppp59-167-55-91.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:26 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 04:37:26 -!- etfb [n=kvirc@ppp59-167-55-91.lns1.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:53:28 Is it true CMUCL outperforms C and Fortran? 04:53:34 (In numerics) 04:54:10 Quadrescence: it is probably true that it can for certain algorithms 04:54:31 Quadrescence: I suggest you read the papers by Didier Verna. 04:55:48 beach: Ah, thanks. 04:56:29 Fateman has some papers about numerics in CL too, IIRC. 04:57:12 Try http://www.google.com/search?q=fateman+lisp+numerics and take the first hit. 04:57:18 there are a couple numeric programs in the shootout, fwiw. 05:09:37 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D9E8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:10:48 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1E833.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:17:11 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A01AD.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:24:06 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:36 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.62.6.102] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 05:29:18 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:30:29 jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.45.224] has joined #lisp 05:31:20 kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:28 -!- kg4qxk [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:34:36 hiroyuki_y [n=yamanaka@mfac.st.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:34:41 Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 05:38:35 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:40:02 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has left #lisp 05:47:17 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 05:51:57 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:52:00 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 05:59:01 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:59:35 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:59:54 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:00:33 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:01:53 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:03:52 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 06:05:53 sudoer [n=jtoy@121.32.169.178] has joined #lisp 06:07:27 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:16:27 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:17:36 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 06:18:40 Why are 'car' and 'cdr' called what they are? 06:18:59 Quadrescence: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CAR_and_CDR 06:19:11 Hah 06:19:43 For those who are bored: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/CLIM-3 is a GIT repository containing a single file clim3.tex with my latest thinking on how to build CLIM 3. It is nowere near complete. I have to think about things like layout managers and when they are executed, for instance. 06:20:24 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has left #lisp 06:20:29 Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has joined #lisp 06:21:07 In the past, someone (hefner I think) objected that rectangular regions were too restrictive. I now don't think so (not at the lowest level, because they are essentially just bounding boxes), and in fact I further restricted them to have integer positions and sizes. 06:21:35 oops, hold on, I should update the tex file. 06:21:51 Could someone explain why this isn't a recursive definition?: (setq a '(a b c)) 06:22:14 Quadrescence: why do you think it might be? 06:22:45 sykopomp: Because we are setting `a' to (a b c), which also has `a' I guess. 06:25:37 Then again, '(a b c) is unevaluated. 06:26:11 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.45.224] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:28:40 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user154-78.wireless.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 06:30:09 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@121.32.169.178] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:32:12 OK, I thought I knew how to update the checked-out files in a GIT repository that has been pushed to from elsewhere, but I can't seem to be able to do it anymore. 06:32:37 beach: git push origin branchname? 06:32:43 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 06:34:17 sykopomp: on which machine? On my home machine, I modified, committed and pushed to the repository above. I can clone that repository, and it works fine. Is what you suggest something I should type in the dept-info repository? 06:34:58 beach: if you're on the new machine, I think git push origin branchname will push your local changes to the remote repo 06:35:45 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-73-53.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 06:36:09 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-59-254.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:36:12 -!- beach` is now known as beach 06:36:24 I admit. I don't know git that well. Just enough to get by. Have to google like a madman if something doesn't work 06:38:10 sykopomp: I have managed to push my changes to the remote machine (proof: when I clone the repository on the remote machine, I get the recent changes). What I have not managed to do is to check out the files in the remote repository. I still get an old version of it. 06:38:57 jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.168.33] has joined #lisp 06:39:05 ohhh 06:39:11 I see now. Yeah 06:39:16 git pull origin master 06:39:16 :) 06:39:27 I think I know what you mean now :P 06:39:32 sykopomp: I thought it was a simple qustion of git checkout , and I think I managed to do that in the past, but it no longer works. 06:39:47 checkout changes branches in git 06:39:55 pull is the command to grab stuff from the repo 06:40:21 I can't pull because my local machine is not accessible from the outside. 06:41:12 (unless I can pull from the very repository I am currently in). 06:41:35 if you didn't pull the changes, you don't have them >_> 06:41:51 I do have them, because I pushed them from my local macine. 06:41:54 *machine 06:42:03 eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:42:07 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:44:52 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@77.64.176.244] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:44:57 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 06:45:58 clhs substitute 06:45:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_sbs_s.htm 06:46:47 sykopomp: tell you what, I just deleted the .tex file so that people would have to clone the repository to get it, and cloning the repository seems to work. 06:47:18 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-146-77.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 06:47:46 *beach* needs to read up on GIT 06:49:27 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Client Quit] 06:50:26 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 07:00:00 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:00:13 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:00:31 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:00:47 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-096-169.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 07:00:58 sykopomp: [reading the GIT doc] Apparently, I should have created a `bare' GIT repository for public use. 07:01:42 git is so confusing sometimes... 07:01:42 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-146.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:01:49 sykopomp: and one is not supposed to push into an ordinary (non-bare) repository. 07:02:04 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:02:15 sykopomp: It is probably just a matter of reading the docs. 07:02:37 beach, it is confusing.. so basically you make a public bare repo that your about to push into'? 07:03:03 when you init it you use --bare --shared etc? 07:03:35 dmiles_afk: git clone --bare ... to create a public repo out of an existing one. 07:03:53 kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:28 oh cool.. clone 07:06:13 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user154-78.wireless.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:06:41 next though after i get the GIT one all hapgy i have to learn to make it present itself as a SVN repo to make people at work happier 07:07:14 i have all my moths of of work maintained from git 07:08:07 OK, the new (bare) repo is in http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/CLIM-3.git 07:08:52 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 07:09:04 ttp://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/CLIM-3.git/info/refs not found: did you run git update-server-info on the server? 07:09:14 your not pushing stuff there yet are you? 07:10:04 i am just being a guinea pig consumer 07:10:17 sqvirt [n=sqvirt@c-24-16-244-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:10:27 I did not run that, no. 07:11:10 If I have a package that contains some classes, do I have to export the symbols that refer to all the accessors of the slots of those classes explicitly, or is there a shortcut? 07:11:12 git fetch http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/CLIM-3.git 07:11:29 hold on... 07:11:29 is what i am doing.. just to get an intial handshake to the empty one 07:12:27 zbigniew: ping? 07:12:50 dmiles_afk: try now. 07:13:08 now it works 07:13:24 phew! 07:13:26 Thanks for helping me debug that. 07:13:48 n/p :) 07:14:14 Well, I learned something new already today, so I am happy. 07:14:38 (and it is only 8 o'clock in the morning, yay!) 07:19:35 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:24:04 sudoer [n=jtoy@58.62.26.145] has joined #lisp 07:24:40 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 07:28:03 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.168.33] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:30:17 -!- egn [n=egn@c-76-25-206-124.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:34:09 beach: did you activate hooks/post-update to make git update-server-info happen after every push? 07:35:24 slyrus: I wanted to look at retrospectiff, but your gitweb is either extremely slow or not working 07:41:51 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:43:53 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:49:08 schasi [n=schasi@p54A26D9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:23 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 07:54:39 michaelw: I didn't do that. 07:56:36 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:58:21 good morning 07:58:27 michaelw: but it was already in there. In hooks/post-update I have a call to update-server-info 07:58:30 hello mvilleneuve 08:00:33 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 08:01:05 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 08:01:13 morning. 08:01:21 hello tic 08:02:18 beach: is hooks/post-update also chmod a+x ? 08:03:21 michaelw: now it is :) 08:03:24 michaelw: thanks! 08:03:47 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:03:58 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:42 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@58.62.26.145] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:06:45 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 08:08:24 -!- kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["bye"] 08:09:16 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has joined #lisp 08:09:56 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.85.95] has joined #lisp 08:11:01 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 08:11:15 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:12:18 beach, solved your git issues? 08:12:42 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:13:00 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 08:13:47 H4ns [n=hans@70.91.193.41] has joined #lisp 08:15:06 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 08:17:26 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 08:19:40 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:20:43 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:20:55 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:21:20 hola 08:21:46 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 08:23:34 hola 08:23:36 :o 08:24:16 kiuma: what exactly is the image format that one ought to use for animated images if one wants cross-browser support for it? 08:24:22 Hej 08:24:37 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 08:25:03 H4ns, png 256 indexed. here the connection is very slow 08:25:28 kiuma: png supports animations? 08:25:29 lyte_ [n=lyte@220-244-221-67-nsw-pppoe.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 08:25:36 no 08:25:41 do in js 08:25:52 -!- lyte_ [n=lyte@220-244-221-67-nsw-pppoe.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:25:57 kiuma: why do you think that animated gifs are improper? 08:26:19 (yell at me and i'll stop the o/t discussion :) ) 08:27:03 echo-are` [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-de1e7b114b2e48dc] has joined #lisp 08:28:17 lol. it's a very old format, animated png are usually havy load 08:29:02 you can get more control and keep size small with css+a small amount of js 08:29:17 kiuma: ok - i thought i was missing something. "it is bad because it is old" is not a good reason, in particular if no new format supports the same thing 08:30:26 as a future daddy of a daughter, I'll take two minute to write my solution, for solidarity towards other daddies 08:30:46 kiuma: the real reason not to use gif was that you had to have a license to do so. but that reason does not exist anymore. 08:30:54 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 08:31:12 H4ns, IRRC gifs are now open 08:31:56 mrSpec, tja 08:32:04 nostoi [n=nostoi@158.Red-83-37-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:32:10 kiuma: correct. so there really is no reason to not use animated gifs whenever one thinks it is appropriate. more often than not, they are inappropriate anyways, but that inappropriateness holds true for js based animations as well 08:32:12 H4ns, how about SVG? 08:32:14 GIFs = best 08:32:14 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-42422301e1827463] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:32:15 :D 08:32:30 kiuma: you don't need to convince me that one can excessively blink in js 08:32:39 and H4ns they're heavy load 08:32:50 not a good practice 08:32:59 kiuma: what is "heavy load"? 08:33:01 *sykopomp* misses the little animated spinning logos on old websites. 08:33:09 tic: svg is a vector formal 08:33:28 sykopomp: i miss the little letters that went into letter boxes! so beautiful 08:33:32 tic: formaT 08:34:25 tic, you should use things like dojo to have portability among browsers (no plugin need) 08:34:28 H4ns, yes. you didn't specify bitmaps, so depending on your use case.. MNG or GIF is the only other ones I can think of. Possibly flash. 08:35:10 http://phil.ipal.org/tc217.gif 08:36:20 tic: the use case was a hunchentoot logo with a blinking eye. which is a good case for an animated gif, i'd say 08:36:33 kiuma: what about the "heavy load" you mentioned? 08:37:05 H4ns, again, depends on if the original image is in vector format... but yeah, a GIF is more portable, at the moment. 08:39:33 H4ns, suppose that gif in question is big, then to animate you have to n-plicate it to get an image, instead of (in this case) only have a 4x4px image appearing and disappearing 08:40:09 in different positions of course 08:40:33 kiuma: in the context of the original discussion (the hunchentoot logo), your argument is moot. 08:40:50 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:41:21 questionable 08:41:29 kiuma: not at all. 08:41:44 a logo should be static then 08:42:22 mm bikesheds... 08:42:28 kiuma: yeah. but then, js is not the proper "solution" to the "problem" either. i was just a little confused by your remark that one should "avoid gif". 08:43:03 H4ns, what if I want to make hunchentoot walk then? do I have to create all the sprites ? 08:43:11 tic: nope, this is about kiuma proposing a rube goldberg solution to a simple task 08:43:30 kiuma: ? 08:44:28 horizontally walking, making it do funny things (such eating html tags) 08:44:48 michaelw, what's wrong with sledgehammers? 08:44:59 kiuma: i'd not recommend using an animated gif for that, at least not exclusively. 08:45:48 kiuma: i might recommend using gifs for animating subsequences, though, as they are often more precise in terms of timing, in particular with older browsers. 08:46:14 michaelw, sounds like a cool guy! 08:48:14 and then the loading of the page would be sloooow 08:48:27 kiuma: ok, thank you. 08:48:40 ok ok end of OT 08:48:41 :) 08:53:30 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:55:52 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.128] has joined #lisp 08:57:05 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:58:37 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 08:58:53 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 09:01:40 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:02:40 ``Erik___ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:03:23 -!- ``Erik__ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:07:58 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:13:35 rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has joined #lisp 09:14:03 -!- mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:19:26 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-15-185.w90-50.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:19:58 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 09:20:07 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-73-53.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:20:09 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:20:12 -!- beach` is now known as beach 09:20:34 kib2_ [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:22:33 stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has joined #lisp 09:23:30 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 09:23:33 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A26D9A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:25:30 -!- eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:27:55 -!- ivanst_ is now known as ivanst 09:29:09 lispm [n=joswig@e177125002.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:29:51 -!- stipet [n=user@ua.blixtvik.net] has left #lisp 09:31:34 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 09:31:57 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 09:33:03 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 09:39:23 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:40:08 mrSpec [n=NoOne@82.177.125.6] has joined #lisp 09:40:37 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 09:44:54 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 09:46:21 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@158.Red-83-37-0.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:48:14 -!- ``Erik___ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:50:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 09:51:15 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-18-217.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:12 nurv101` [n=askmefor@cidhcp124.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 09:56:17 -!- jao [n=user@47.Red-79-155-155.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:57:25 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:01:30 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:01:38 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 10:04:40 drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 10:05:48 is there an analog of sum for the product in LOOP ? 10:06:00 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:06:15 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.85.95] has quit [] 10:06:15 no 10:06:23 -!- echo-are` [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-de1e7b114b2e48dc] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:08:17 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:38 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:18:51 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cad439-199.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:19:05 -!- hiroyuki_y [n=yamanaka@mfac.st.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 10:22:49 drdo: (exp (loop :for x :in list :sum (log x))) 10:23:44 drdo: or (loop :for x :in list :for prod = x :then (* prod x) :finally (return prod)) 10:24:19 jestocost [n=cmell@cad4e7-041.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:24:42 matimago: don't think the last one is legal 10:26:06 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:27:10 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 10:28:47 michaelw: why? 10:29:29 meh, i've been convinced to learn emacs 10:30:06 iterate:multiply FTW 10:30:56 Quadrescence: ? 10:31:10 Quadrescence, when there's Vim and Limp? Why?! :) 10:31:18 :O 10:31:21 Quadrescence, I thought this was a different channel and had an insane deja-vu... 10:31:43 but, yeah, same here :P 10:31:49 Did I just break the universe? 10:31:50 Quadrescence: look, you destabilised everyone here 10:31:51 learning emacs for the rest of the life 10:32:06 -!- enigmus_ [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 10:32:28 is there a vim equivalent of slime..??? 10:32:28 gawd I don't want to learn emacs 10:32:44 I just want to program. ;_; 10:32:51 ejs_ [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 10:32:59 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:33:03 b4|hraban, Limp. 10:33:10 niiiice!!! 10:33:15 b4|hraban, http://mikael.jansson.be/hacking/limp and #limp on this network. 10:33:19 thanks :) 10:33:33 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 10:39:59 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:42:42 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:46:26 -!- holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:46:41 Quadrescence: then just launch clisp and program. 10:47:33 Quadrescence: but since you will want to keep the sources of your programs around, and copying-and-pasting them will grow old soon, then you could implement some tools. You've got a choice between an integrated editor, or something like IBCL. 10:47:50 http://www.informatimago.com/develop/lisp/small-cl-pgms/ibcl/ 10:47:52 -!- jestocost [n=cmell@cad4e7-041.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:48:12 I advise clisp because it already integrates readline. Not all lisp implementations are GPL ;-) 10:48:31 SBCL is more free than GPL 10:48:32 :D 10:48:46 -!- mrSpec is now known as SpecAfk 10:48:48 err, more free than clisp 10:49:14 Yes. But the GPL is more capitalist than BSD. 10:49:27 You mean viral? 10:49:31 :o 10:49:56 http://www.brouhaha.com/~eric/editorials/gpl_capitalist.html 10:50:35 9 years old 10:50:41 not acceptable. 10:51:09 Many nouns are capitalized inappropriately.\ 10:51:11 -\ 10:51:12 Earth: 4e9 years old, Quadrescence: 8 years old. Quadrescence, you're inacceptable. 10:52:15 rounding would usually give 5e9 years old 10:53:39 matimago: Give me a break will ya? It's 4:53 AM. :( 10:53:55 Quadrescence: C-h t, get cracking. less irc, more emacs 10:54:04 Otherwise, as an editor, instead of writting a text editor, you could write a s-exp editor. It's easier and probably more useful to edit lisp sources. 10:54:08 minion: chant to Quadrescence 10:54:09 Quadrescence: MORE USEFUL 10:54:33 Are sexp jokes acceptable? :D 10:54:48 only if they're completely new 10:54:53 dumb 10:54:54 minion: compiles to locklace 10:54:55 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``compiles''. 10:54:59 Sorry, that was meant to tset... 10:55:33 If only that bot had the ##C++ triggers in it 10:55:35 tset: unknown terminal type emacs / Terminal type? 10:56:01 c|mell [n=cmell@cb8ac8-168.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:56:08 emacs isn't a terminal (emulator), silly goose. 10:56:20 M-x term 10:56:37 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:57:45 M-x term would be good enough, but I rather use M-x shell. 10:59:16 is there an emacs porn command? 10:59:19 :< 10:59:19 Quadrescence: have a look at plisp: ftp://ftp.informatimago.com/pub/lisp-misc/plisp-20080619.tar.gz ; it's an old Apple][ lisp, containing a s-exp editor. Before summer, I made it work a little over Common Lisp. 10:59:25 Quadrescence: M-x woman ? 11:00:16 matimago: I have an Apple //e less than 3 meters away. 11:00:18 Notice how small editor.plisp is. You could write something similar in CL, and then you could work from withing clisp without needing to get out to edit your lisp sources. 11:00:18 (from me) 11:00:35 s/withing/within/ 11:03:09 Quadrescence: and be sure to read: The Craft of Text Editing http://www.finseth.com/craft/ 11:04:09 'Twas brillig, and the slithy toves 11:04:15 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:05:51 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.157.186] has joined #lisp 11:05:53 Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.0.157.186] has joined #lisp 11:08:07 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 11:08:54 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-32-174.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 11:09:47 Quadrescence: M-x psychoanalyze-pinhead 11:14:18 THE BEST PAAARRT OF WAKING UPPPPPPP, IS FOLGERS IN YOUR CUP! 11:18:31 matimago: Ithink I'll read that thesis too 11:19:34 Perhaps if more programmers read it, less of them would bear inferior editors. :-) 11:19:48 needs more MS Word 11:20:16 matimago: if they would all be educated, who would debug all that nasty java-code? 11:20:34 Nobody, there wouldn't be any nasty java-code :-) 11:21:00 matimago: but we have that code already! 11:21:29 We'd write automatic debugging programs. 11:21:54 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 11:22:09 touche 11:23:18 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@host147.190-137-185.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:23:47 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177125002.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 11:23:52 bbl 11:24:32 Tordek [n=tordek@host213.190-226-115.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 11:26:45 FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has joined #lisp 11:28:37 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:29:32 nickga [n=nickg@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:32:36 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@cb8ac8-168.dynamic.tiki.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:34:47 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host213.190-226-115.telecom.net.ar] has quit ["leaving"] 11:39:16 Tordek [n=tordek@host213.190-226-115.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 11:42:37 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:45:01 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:47:35 Did anybody look at gilberth's replacement for the current output-recording code in McCLIM? 11:50:10 H4ns, have you seen the ml ? 11:50:48 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 11:50:48 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has joined #lisp 11:54:54 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 11:57:07 kiuma: yeah, have you seen my reply? :p 11:57:44 no reply yet :( 11:58:46 kiuma: http://vaxbusters.org/hunchentoot.gif 12:00:47 Can someone show me some lisp code that will WOW me? 12:01:05 I mean that somewhat seriously... 12:01:16 (I am interested in seeing some neat lispy code) 12:01:23 shiki9_ [n=kenroy@76.76.161.72] has joined #lisp 12:02:03 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 12:02:22 H4ns, this only because the image is simple and slow, but it's 1.5 kb , more then mine :p 12:02:31 minion: tell Quadrescence about PAIP 12:02:32 Quadrescence: please look at PAIP: Paradigms of Artificial Intelligence Programming: Case Studies in Common Lisp by Peter Norvig. http://www.cliki.net/PAIP 12:02:45 s/slow/litle/ 12:02:56 -!- ejs_ [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 12:03:30 minion: tell Quadrescence about on lisp 12:03:30 Quadrescence: have a look at on lisp: by Paul Graham An advanced textbook on Common Lisp, with special focus on macros. http://www.cliki.net/on%20lisp 12:03:33 Someone send me this book pl0x 12:03:55 Quadrescence: The code from PAIP is available online. 12:04:12 Quadrescence: But I highly recommend you buy the book and read it as well. 12:04:38 beach: Well, I would buy it if I could. 12:04:40 Quadrescence: OnLisp, on the other hand, is available as a PDF online. 12:04:40 :< 12:05:01 This book seems to have great things looking at the ToC (PAIP) 12:05:49 Quadrescence: your local library might have a copy, or they might get it through inter-library loans. 12:06:15 I've never been to a library. 12:06:31 :( 12:06:52 H4ns, I like it! 12:07:04 Quadrescence: what, you are a semi-geek! 12:07:19 madnificent: wat. Is this good or bad? 12:07:26 I have usually purchased all of my books. 12:07:30 Quadrescence: are you a student? if so, your school's library can probably get it for you 12:07:37 madnificent: No I am not. 12:07:47 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 12:07:55 Quadrescence: I don't know actually 12:08:20 I would be a student if colleges accepted me. ._. 12:08:51 -!- shiki9 [n=kenroy@76.76.162.184] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:08:58 -!- dys [n=andreas@p5B3155EB.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 12:09:15 Quadrescence: where do you live? 12:09:22 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:09:36 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 12:10:39 beach: North of St. Paul, Minnesota, USA 12:11:22 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 12:12:25 ejs_ [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 12:12:34 -!- ivarref [n=ivarref@padme.ifi.uio.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:15:02 benny [n=benny@i577A0DAA.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 12:16:58 Quadrescence: when I typed "St Paul Minnesota community college" I got 10 colleges from Google Maps. Are you sure you have applied to some of these? 12:17:08 jdz: , 6.1.1 12:18:22 tic: thanks :) 12:18:27 Quadrescence: http://www.communitycollegereview.com/community_college/stateid/MN is a list of community colleges in Minnesota. 12:18:54 beach: There's a subtle problem. 12:19:23 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-064-037.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:19:27 I've exhausted all mathematics courses, Spanish and French courses, and have other stuff too. 12:19:44 So I guess I could take courses that are random and not interesting, but, yeah, not very motivated. 12:19:56 H4ns, what's the base animal? 12:20:01 Quadrescence: That's different. 12:20:02 beach: I've read some of it 12:20:16 tic: i dunno. it is just the logo off the hunchentoot site 12:20:32 Oh 12:20:48 A crab, perhaps. 12:21:07 hefner: I just glanced over it. Gilberth was a bit cryptic about it, saying he hadn't committed it because it might "break everything else", but then also said that he has a commercial application that depends on it. 12:21:17 -!- intrados [n=intrados@rdrt-164-107-204-170.resnet.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:21:34 beach: it would certainly break everything, yes. 12:21:56 iesahin [n=user@81.214.248.165] has joined #lisp 12:21:58 Ouch! 12:22:11 beach: the functions operate in relative rather than stream coordinates 12:22:18 -!- iesahin [n=user@81.214.248.165] has left #lisp 12:22:30 replay-output-record, bounding-rectangle*, map-over-... 12:22:51 Is there any function in Lisp for throwing an exception? 12:23:01 Exception/error/etc 12:23:30 eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.43.94] has joined #lisp 12:23:31 Cryovat: We call then conditions, and yes, we have error, cerror, assert, signal, etc. 12:23:49 Cryovat, see http://gigamonkeys.com/book/beyond-exception-handling-conditions-and-restarts.html 12:24:05 Cryovat: and we say "signal" a condition" rather than "throwing" because "throw" means something else in Common Lisp. 12:24:06 cltl2-section Conditions 12:24:06 http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node312.html 12:24:18 Thanks :) 12:24:33 Cryovat: why do yo ask? 12:25:03 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 12:26:22 Coding style 12:26:25 -!- eni4ever [n=admin@79.114.43.94] has quit [Client Quit] 12:26:55 My background is with C#, and I'm used to do pretty rigid input validation in methods 12:28:24 you want ensure-type. 12:28:40 uhm. 12:29:09 *tic* retracts 12:29:25 Cryovat: My question was not why you think using conditions is useful, but what it is that you are doing with Lisp, as in writing some applications, writing a compiler, taking a course at the university, etc. 12:29:34 Ah 12:29:38 University course 12:29:50 Where? 12:29:57 NTNU, Norway 12:30:22 Tordek_ [n=tordek@91-0-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has joined #lisp 12:30:33 Tell Anne Elster hello from me. 12:31:19 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:31:41 Hehe 12:31:44 Afraid I don't know her 12:31:55 She is a professor there. 12:32:06 jtoy [n=jtoy@74.85.13.15] has joined #lisp 12:32:09 at least two from ntnu here, then. 12:32:20 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has left #lisp 12:33:08 Cryovat: http://www.idi.ntnu.no/people/person.php?id=29 12:33:20 sudoer [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has joined #lisp 12:35:05 Jacob_H__ [n=jacob@92.0.157.186] has joined #lisp 12:35:49 beach: their index is nice http://www.idi.ntnu.no/people/ ; They've got one iconoclast wearing green! :-) 12:36:42 Her fields are a bit outside mine 12:36:49 matimago: shocking. 12:37:06 Cryovat: Come on! You can still go into her office and tell her hello from me. 12:38:17 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:38:29 Hehe 12:38:30 Cryovat: It doesn't matter, though. Don't worry about it. 12:38:40 And in knowledge, there's no barriers separating the fields. 12:38:48 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:40:06 True that 12:40:34 Zoba [n=Zoba@wva4418rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 12:40:41 I'll say hello from you next time I pass her office beach 12:41:07 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [] 12:41:41 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:41:58 will she recognise "beach from #lisp"? 12:42:54 I would think so. Otherwise, she will certainly recognize "Robert Strandh". 12:43:17 My name is Robert Smith 12:43:18 :o 12:43:31 Not a very Norwegian name that. 12:44:06 :} 12:44:33 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host213.190-226-115.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:44:40 -!- H4ns [n=hans@70.91.193.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:45:02 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 12:45:52 H4ns [n=hans@c-71-232-4-167.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:36 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:50:22 Good morning all. 12:51:20 nick21 [n=user21@119-46-21-130.static.asianet.co.th] has joined #lisp 12:52:38 hiya chandler 12:52:58 I see you have been enjoying the cltl2 index! 12:53:21 absolutely 12:53:33 is anyone working on or interested in grass-roots api standarisation? 12:53:36 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@74.85.13.15] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:53:58 API for what? 12:54:04 jdz: You can't reference variables introduced by FOR in FINALLY. 12:54:09 minion: CDR? 12:54:09 CDR: The Common Lisp Document Repository is hosted at http://cdr.eurolisp.org. http://www.cliki.net/CDR 12:54:20 jdz: That's the point where DO comes in. 12:55:10 chandler: ah hah, that looks like what i was getting at. what is the status of cdr? 12:55:34 locklace: What do you mean with status? 12:56:15 intrados [n=intrados@rdrt-164-107-204-170.resnet.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 12:56:24 i mean is it active and are implementations implementing things? from the blog it looks like it is somewhat active at least 12:56:29 bobbysmith0071 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 12:57:37 locklace: People submit things from time to time, so I would say it's active. 12:58:28 locklace: You're responsible for hacking it into your implementation of choice. 12:58:45 locklace: Implementations are not human beings, they won't do stuff for you. 12:59:10 they compile code for me 12:59:31 locklace: If you are looking for common APIs for things which are widely implemented in the various Lisps, people have tended to focus on compatibility libraries like USOCKET rather than standardizing APIs. 13:00:16 locklace: There was a lot more pull for the SRFI process because R5RS does not in and of itself provide the necessary hooks to define API compatibility packages across implementations. 13:00:17 chandler: are you dealing with the openmcl build stuff, or should I commit what I have? 13:00:38 stassats: Technically, Slime's heuristic can be made aware of in-package forms that are within strings. 13:00:41 Xof: It's still on my list, but I didn't get a chance this weekend. Your patch did not make it build for me, so I'd say you should hold off. 13:01:09 ok 13:01:36 I am hoping to look at that and tcr's reader cleanup patches today or tomorrow. 13:01:56 tcr: i guess so, but if it is too complex, i don't insist, i have only one such file so far 13:02:10 -!- Tordek_ [n=tordek@91-0-17-190.fibertel.com.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:03:45 chandler: ok, that's interesting. what i am interested in is a one-stop shop for extra-standard interfaces/libraries; so that for instance when people show up who are used to things like python and its standard library, you can point them to exactly two places: the ANSI standard, and the extra-standard 13:04:39 locklace: There is no one stop shop yet, though there are several compatibility packages. You could put together your own bundle of the compatibility packages, and call it BATTERIES-INCLUDED. 13:04:57 locklace: Are you saying you are interested in designing such APIs? That's a pretty difficult task. 13:05:45 beach: i know it is difficult, but it is something i consider important (perhaps i am alone in this) 13:05:58 -!- nick21 [n=user21@119-46-21-130.static.asianet.co.th] has left #lisp 13:06:08 It's _very_ difficult. It's pretty difficult already for simple stuff like a readtable iteration form (speaking from experience.) 13:06:09 locklace: you are not alone wanting that, but you may be the most optimistic one :) 13:06:26 locklace: You are not alone in thinking that, but most people don't have the combination of experience, skill, and time to do it. 13:06:31 i was sort of envisioning something along the lines of the boost process 13:07:19 locklace: what process is that? 13:07:22 *stassats* already updated emacs for that code, old emacs couldn't deal with code inside 13:07:29 double quotes 13:09:03 manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 13:09:21 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:09:22 beach: i don't have excessive amounts of free time, but that goal is sufficiently important to the future of lisp that i'd be willing to help out with it any way i could, i have a certain amount of experience but not that much lisp skill ;) 13:10:08 beach: check out http://boost.org, Boost is basically an extra-standard system for C++; a lot of the participants are involved in C++ standardisation and many things appear first in Boost and then go on to become C++ standards 13:10:32 locklace: Of course, the problem with the analogy to Python is that there is one "real" Python implementation, and the others must follow its lead. The different Common Lisp implementations can't even agree on the interpretation of the ANSI specification at times, let alone how (and what) to implement beyond the standard. 13:10:37 beach: overall the Boost libraries seem to have achieved a very high quality level so they appear to be doing something right 13:11:19 locklace: contrary to common lisp, c++ has a very large commercial backing. 13:11:37 chandler: yes indeed, it is certainly a lot harder. but on the other hand, if something *can* be agreed on then it has a lot more power than something in the python world, because it spans CL implementations 13:11:44 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:11:44 locklace: One problem you will run into is that there are a lot fewer people available to participate in something like that for Lisp, so you would have to do a large part of it yourself. 13:11:56 H4ns: yes, the commercial backing certainly does help 13:12:08 and I suspect many of them would be openly hostile to the idea :) 13:12:22 locklace: it does not "help", it is crucial :) 13:12:28 locklace: I think I can already predict that, if you were to start such a thing thinking that you will get lots of people helping out, and you can merely watch it happen, you will fail miserably. 13:12:40 *chandler* would still like to get the rest of the world to agree that 3.2.5 forbids issuing WARNINGs other than STYLE-WARNINGs when compiling conformant code. 13:12:47 locklace: in common lisp, you'll find a lot of people with very strong opinions, and the common subset is smaller than you would think. 13:13:06 H4ns: well i wouldn't go that far, most of the Boost work is still done like any other open-source software 13:13:11 H4ns: that animated gif is great 13:13:22 love the multi-eye blinking action 13:13:23 locklace: so, following beach's suggestion and creating a lisp distribution with batteries included is much more realistic. 13:13:40 antifuchs: it is heavy weight, and uses an old format!11 13:13:49 H4ns: I suggested that? 13:13:57 reminds me of Knight Rider (: 13:13:59 I think I suggested that one. 13:14:07 antifuchs, H4ns: link? 13:14:14 beach: apologies, chandler: apologies! :) 13:14:31 http://vaxbusters.org/hunchentoot.gif 13:14:35 chandler: http://common-lisp.net/pipermail/tbnl-devel/attachments/20081110/0eb11965/attachment.gif 13:14:47 locklace: A much better approach (in my opinion of course) is to take one such API, do as much as you can yourself and ask for help when you get stuck, but still fully expect to do most of it yourself. Then, when you are done with that, move on to the next one. 13:14:59 beach: i'm well aware of that, which is why i asked whether something like it is already in progress and what the status/feeling is amongst lisp developers 13:15:24 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:16:00 the problem is to make _the_ extra-standard. 13:16:11 beach: that's pretty much how any such effort works 13:16:42 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:16:58 locklace: I think you will find that quite a number of people (many of them come here) have done this and continue doing it. 13:17:15 H4ns: is it intentional that it doesn't blink from the beginning and i need to wait? 13:17:25 they don't have an organization to bash people over the head into using their library, though 13:17:34 stassats: it blinks infrequently, i think every 9 or so seconds. 13:17:37 hefner: indeed. 13:18:05 beach: ok, but under what umbrella? is there any overall scheme or effort that someone can go to to find all of these nice APIs people have de-facto standardised? that's the key 13:18:40 H4ns, very subtle! 13:18:40 locklace: I think I am trying to say that I don't think that's the key right now. 13:18:57 locklace: And instead I think the key is to get more code written. 13:19:00 locklace, I think more code needs to be written. 13:19:08 heh 13:19:10 gmta? 13:19:12 minion, chant 13:19:12 MORE CODE 13:19:35 locklace: a standard is either "formal" or "de-facto". there is no room for formal standardization of lisp libraries, and the only way to reach something like de-facto standardization is predominant usage. 13:20:14 locklace: the only library that is predominant at the moment is cl-ppcre, i'd say. 13:20:43 H4ns: really? 13:21:01 beach: i'm just guessing. any others you'd suggest? 13:21:06 CLX 13:21:08 H4ns: I think CFFI has reached that point. 13:21:12 beach: i'm not using it. 13:21:20 chandler: that is true. 13:21:27 H4ns: I am not using cl-ppcre 13:21:37 beach: well, saying "more code needs to be written" is a truism. i think there's value in organising the effort for a variety of reasons, but from the sound of it i am virtually alone in this view ;) 13:21:38 beach: ah :) that's what i meant to say :) 13:22:10 i don't think that "more code needs to be written". i'd rather say "more libraries need to be fixed and documented". and it is obvious, that writing more code is more fun. 13:22:46 beach: does that mean that you don't use regexps or you use some other regexp library? 13:22:50 I think we need to throw all the libraries into an arena with some spears and see which ones come out standing 13:22:55 usocket versus iolib! 13:23:01 H4ns, the "documentation" part is silent ;) 13:23:03 H4ns: exactly, this is a big problem in my view, there are plenty of lisp hackers off writing code in a corner; it's all the other organisational stuff that isn't (seemingly) there 13:23:05 Sure, fixing and documenting existing libraries would be a very nice thing to do. 13:23:23 stassats: I am not using regexps in any of my software. 13:23:45 locklace: I don't think that attempts to impose that organization on the lisp hackers will go very far, either. 13:23:57 I didn't expect much from CDR, and it has met my expectations so far. 13:24:22 beach: i think both clx and cl-ppcre would qualify as predominant, as in "if you want to do X, there is no real alternative to using library Y" 13:24:28 I don't like how CDRs become finalized before anyone bothers to read them 13:24:43 H4ns: Unless you are on Allegro, and you can use the built-in regexps... 13:24:50 chandler: far be it from me to attempt or expect such imposition. ;) that's why i said "grass-roots" originally; the motivation clearly has to come from lisp hackers themselves if it's going to happen at all 13:24:52 H4ns: didn't someone write a spiffy new regexp librari recently? 13:24:52 H4ns: yes, I agree, and that's why I nominated CLX. 13:25:00 and in lispworks and clisp, iirc 13:25:01 chandler: clisp has internal regular expressions, too. 13:25:04 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 13:25:24 H4ns: it was just an example :-) 13:25:34 hefner: irregular expressions or something like that. 13:25:49 hefner: yes. something fast and radically less useful than real regular expressions. but very very fast!1 13:26:15 I like fast and not terribly useful. 13:26:29 beach: hm. I have seen a Scheme project with that name, but not a CL project. 13:26:50 (especially when looking toward C++ for inspiration) 13:27:18 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 13:27:20 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has quit ["bbl"] 13:27:22 locklace: As many people have pointed out, the problem is that there is not a uniform set of "lisp hackers" out there. 13:27:47 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:28:00 locklace: I am not trying to discourage you. I am just warning you against too high expectations. 13:29:00 locklace: I think the best place to start would be in making incremental contributions to the various existing compatibility libraries. 13:29:19 beach: there isn't a uniform set of c++ hackers out there either, but there is a strong subset who have found enough value in the idea of something like Boost to make it happen. my original question was essentially "does such a subset exist in the lisp world?" 13:29:21 or start by murdering everyone who disagrees with you 13:29:35 locklace: In fact, I am hosting a dinner with the local Lispers on Friday, and I was going to suggest that we create a site with a collection of useful libraries and such. But my goals would be very modest, namely, avoid that our students have to use CVS, SVN, darcs, and git from an uncountable number of places in order to just set up a system to do their homework. 13:29:49 locklace: I think it would be nice to add support to CFFI for callbacks created at runtime, for instance. This could be done by using implementation-specific functionality where available and calling out to libffi when not. 13:30:18 locklace: It exists, and you will find that there are roughly as many subsets as Lisp hackers. And they don't aggree on anything. 13:30:21 locklace, there's an important difference between Lispers and C++ programmers, in that Lispers don't have to wait for Big Language Changes(tm) if they want something changed. 13:30:28 locklace: There is a lot of room to extend USOCKET, too. 13:31:50 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 13:32:06 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 13:32:55 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:33:14 chandler: sure, sounds like the right step forward on the coding side. i was looking more at / asking about the non-coding aspects since to me these are often just as important, and are what seem to receive very little attention in the lisp world 13:33:31 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 13:34:26 hefner: Yeah, I don't like that either (finalized before being read) 13:34:32 locklace: Finding a way to make these compatibility libraries easier to install would be significantly beneficial. I have seen a number of complaints about ASDF-INSTALL, particularly for non-SBCL users. There are others who are interested in working on a replacement system. 13:35:01 beach: ok, so maybe the lisp people lack the ability of (say) the c++ people in coming together and forging a consensus 13:35:03 locklace: Being able to easily and reliably install the required compatibility libraries on any implementation of choice is about equivalent to having a "standard" compatibility API. 13:35:44 chandler: yes indeed, there have been many discussions here about packaging system problems in recent weeks ;) 13:36:13 locklace: Could be, but I have no evidence either way. 13:36:48 ease of installation can easily surpass library code quality in terms of importance when it comes to making things the "de-facto standard". see libwww-perl, for example. it is a horrid mess, yet everybody uses it because it has been easily installable using cpan since decades. 13:36:55 locklace: There's a lack of financial and time ressources. 13:37:15 thus, common lisps "library problem" is not that there exist no libraries, it is that existing libraries are relatively hard to find and install. 13:37:48 and have no documentation, and no release management 13:37:59 H4ns: absolutely. i didn't bring that up only because i've already brought it up repeatedly and now have a good idea of where people stand on the issue ;) 13:38:44 user___ [n=user@p549237AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:39:08 beach: except that there's no Boost for common lisp ;) just reinforces your point that lisp hackers seemingly find it hard or not worthwhile to agree 13:39:32 nothing to agree on. 13:39:58 but it's pretty academic if you don't say what part of Boost you'd like to put in CL. 13:40:03 (or equivalent parts of boost) 13:40:06 locklace: I think it might be worse than that. Some Lisp people take great pride in disagreeing with others, and in talking about it very lound and clear. 13:40:48 ecraven [i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has joined #lisp 13:40:59 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 13:41:02 trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 13:41:06 tic: Given that Boost is 87% (by volume, not weight) "look what neat thing I can do with expression templates", I think the CL equivalent would be a library of gee-whiz macros that almost never get used in real programs, plus a few actually useful things. :-) 13:41:52 I didn't read the whole of the discussion, but as someone that is still findin his way in common lisp, I would appreciate a batteries-included library-pack. 13:41:57 beach: i don't think anyone's suggesting that there should be no debate or disagreement. but there has also to be an overarching feeling that consensus in some form is worth achieving 13:42:08 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:48 locklace: I would say "go ahead and try it". For all I know it might work. 13:42:55 chandler, exactly the point I was trying to make! so it's a mix of "not relevant" and "don't need to change the compiler to do that", I think. What's your take? 13:43:19 chandler: hehe. there is a bit of that in boost, but that's largely because c++ needs all the help it can get in that department because it's so restricted without it. but it also has "hard" libraries like asio for networking, graphs, etc. 13:43:22 when new, it isn't exactly clear that cl-ppcre is the way for regexpes etc. A batteries included pack wouldn't be exhaustive, but it would give starting users the libraries to get something done (and perhaps later, they will find libraries that suite their own ideas) 13:43:38 tic: I have nothing of value to say about Boost or C++0x, to be honest. 13:44:15 H4ns: hunchentooth.gif is quite cool 13:44:28 madnificent: thanks :) 13:45:00 i bring boost up mainly as an example of a process that seems to work well wrt producing, validating, and presenting high-quality interfaces/libraries 13:45:29 madnificent: i found clbuild and cliki.net quite helpful during the first steps 13:45:36 it's not the only such, obviously 13:46:08 locklace: It's not the process, it's people doing something. 13:46:23 Please realize that. 13:46:56 locklace: I understand the point. I do think that a better means of installing libraries would make more people happy than a batteries-included library. 13:46:57 tcr: i realise that's how you feel. ;) 13:47:18 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:47:30 chandler: yep, a huge part of it is having a good package management system 13:47:58 I should also add "and updating" there, too. 13:48:09 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 13:48:51 locklace: It's a feeling backed up by actual experience. 13:49:06 but as H4ns mentioned you also need decent release/documentation processes for those libraries 13:49:21 locklace: i did not say "decent" 13:49:32 user___: I use them (well, not clbuild), but I still remember the very first searches (and I get flashbacks when I search for new libraries (like network-io)). 13:49:50 -!- Zoba [n=Zoba@wva4418rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:49:54 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 13:50:00 tcr: ok, i have actual experience that says different. ymmv 13:50:44 tcr: I think talking about the substance of your experience would be more helpful than asserting that you have it. 13:51:01 locklace: You should ask tcr about his experience, since it is worth listening to. 13:51:08 I'm in a hurry unfortunately, gotta catch a bus. :) I hoped someone of you would chime in. 13:51:16 beach: perhaps you could advise your student to install gentoo. Then installing ALL the CL libraries is a mere: (cd /usr/portage ; for f in dev-lisp/* ; do emerge $f || true ; done) 13:51:38 matimago: Aiee. 13:51:48 Are they still packaging unreleased code? 13:52:06 *tcr* bbl. 13:52:09 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:52:10 Are they still using c-l-c, which makes it impossible to get upstream support? 13:52:35 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:53:26 Well, you just skip c-l-c, and enable asdf-binary-locations and you're all set. It works well. 13:53:56 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-18-217.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:54:00 At least, it solves the problem of searching the sources in various repositories. 13:54:09 matimago: personally had the analogous debian experience. in comparison to clbuild it was a bit of a waste of time 13:54:48 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:55:34 chandler: i believe c-l-c is now an optional overlay. 13:56:30 wrt boost, here, we use it mostly for its templates, since that means that we won't have to add run-time libraries in our memory starved products, and that means that the only things we use of them are really things that youo find natively in CL: lambdas and closures. So in CL, something like boost would be totally useless. 13:56:42 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.5] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:57:02 matimago: nobody suggested that cl needs something like boos. 13:57:04 boost 13:57:18 H4ns: your real feels are showing :D 13:57:22 feelings :p 13:57:28 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb8a46.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 13:57:30 *dlowe* will shut up now. 13:57:45 Ok. If you want to imitate the process, you will have to imitate the resources too. 13:58:22 Once upon a time, I had a nice personal library of classes, that I collected and ported from one programming language to the other. When I switched to Lisp, it all went poof. Was useless or already present in CL. 14:01:11 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 14:01:12 pkhuong: Well, that is a start. Maybe they've stopped taking random unreleased code from people's SVN repositories and packaging it up, too. 14:01:32 chandler: that I doubt. 14:02:29 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 14:04:53 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 14:05:37 dacoda [n=user@dkicomp.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 14:06:59 matimago: I think that would be a hard sell (installing Gentoo). 14:07:13 -!- Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.0.157.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:09:22 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:11:12 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:38 manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has joined #lisp 14:17:48 -!- dacoda [n=user@dkicomp.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.0.2 $Revision: 1.726.2.11 $ (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:18:05 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:18:34 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:19:06 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:22:02 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:26:37 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:13 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:30 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:33:05 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:38:01 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:40 spacebat [n=akhasha@124-171-110-89.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 14:38:46 elurin [n=user@88.224.44.54] has joined #lisp 14:39:59 -!- xreyes__ [n=xreyes@8.84-48-175.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:42:20 beach: only because it's a distribution programmed in python. Perhaps we should make a Linux distribution programmed in Lisp. You would have to install perl, python or ruby as add-ons, but you'd get all the CL libraries installed in the base distribution :-) 14:43:02 please just don't call it "closure" 14:44:15 isnt emacs some sort of distro? ;-) 14:45:53 locklace: yeah, the whole clo?ure thing is getting old, i'd suggest klosure. 14:46:11 :( 14:49:37 drwhen [n=drwho@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 14:50:01 hello 14:51:02 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@202-161-17-89.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:53:25 appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-39.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 14:53:36 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:53:56 I was wondering if anyone knew if there is SCTP socket support for the current version of Common Lisp 14:53:59 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@14.pool85-49-189.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 14:54:17 common lisp does not know anything about sockets 14:54:24 most implementations do, though. 14:54:26 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@202.23.191.41] has joined #lisp 14:54:55 yes CL implemnetations 14:55:29 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:55:48 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:56:02 i'm not aware of sctp libraries for common lisp, but maybe iolib knows something about it. 14:57:27 lolib? 14:58:06 -!- nurv101` [n=askmefor@cidhcp124.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:58:09 minion: iolib? 14:58:11 iolib: I/O(mainly networking) library containing: a BSD sockets library, a DNS resolver and an I/O multiplexer that supports select(2), epoll(4) and kqueue(2). http://www.cliki.net/iolib 14:58:26 oh 14:58:28 thanks 14:59:28 <_deepfire> It'd be nice to be able to define exhasutive subclass partitions. 15:00:37 <_deepfire> erm, exhaustive. 15:03:10 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 15:04:00 -!- ejs_ [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:04:00 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:47 ejs_ [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 15:09:13 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 15:09:52 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:58 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:13:07 -!- rtra [n=rtra@unaffiliated/rtra] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:13:17 -!- ecraven [i=nex@eutyche.swe.uni-linz.ac.at] has quit ["bbl"] 15:14:58 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@14.pool85-49-189.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:14:58 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@14.pool85-49-189.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 15:16:41 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:18:08 oudeis [n=oudeis@DSL217-132-36-190.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 15:18:48 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:24:34 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@DSL217-132-36-190.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:24:41 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:24:43 -!- cods [n=cods@rsbac/developer/cods] has quit ["crash"] 15:26:41 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 15:26:52 -!- user___ [n=user@p549237AE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:28:49 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-2-150-65.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:21 _deepfire: (define-exhaustive-subclass-partition superclass (subclass1 subclass2 ...)) 15:29:41 Then use MOP to prevent defining any new subclass. 15:31:08 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@adsl-dyn223.91-127-180.t-com.sk] has joined #lisp 15:32:27 <_deepfire> matimago, true that, of course, but I rather hoped that somebody would say "Oh, but foo does that already!" 15:33:59 _deepfire: note that it often good enough to write: (defclass c () () (:documentation "the subclasses sc1 sc2 sc3 ... scN form an exhaustive partition of the class c")) 15:35:27 <_deepfire> matimago, I do something close to that (off the docstring, in the comments), but the compiler's hand-grabbing-and-telling-not-to-do-the-wrong-thing would be nice. 15:36:47 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:36:56 drwhen: i think Iolib uses usocket, which is just sockets :-) 15:37:01 disumu [n=disumu@p57A250F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:08 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:37:52 fusss: not true. 15:37:58 fusss: iolib uses cffi 15:38:25 oh, alright. but usocket is still awesome :-) 15:38:46 *fusss* is wondering which sqlite interface to convert to cffi 15:39:07 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-39.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:40:16 cods [n=cods@tuxee.net] has joined #lisp 15:43:35 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:45:19 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 15:46:03 and then there is clsql .. 15:46:07 fusss: http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi?r=cl-rdbms-cl-rdbms;a=tree;f=/sqlite 15:46:23 generated by verrazano 15:48:12 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:26 woah 15:49:37 library overload .. clsql uses uffi, hmmm 15:50:00 ``Erik___ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:05 fusss: yeah, it predates CFFI 15:50:28 but elephant uses clsql .. 15:50:52 minion: verrazano 15:50:53 verrazano: You said Verrazano? Well sorry, the actual name is fetter. http://www.cliki.net/verrazano 15:52:01 i have gave up on using sb-grovel (actually, never learned how ;-) to generate ffis for win32 from the headers 15:52:25 instead went with lambda-gtk, which does so much on it's own actually 15:53:32 -!- nickga [n=nickg@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:56:51 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 15:57:54 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:58:08 _deepfire: the point is that at any time you can add elements. Eg. in maths, we may consider N and its exhaustive (if infinite) list of cardinals. And suddenly for some demonstration, you may introduce an element  and extend the operations such as + and * in N{}. So any exhaustive partitions you may had in N are not exhaustive anymore in N{}. 15:58:52 All right, it may be a situation where you may want to insert a new superclass instead. It's rather fuzzy, and again a question of dynamic vs. static. 15:59:20 *sellout* gives matimago a UTF-8 high five 16:00:01 kngspook [n=King@155.47.109.51] has joined #lisp 16:00:30 -!- kngspook [n=King@unaffiliated/alpha] has quit [Client Quit] 16:00:35 denatus [n=denatus@084202106139.customer.alfanett.no] has joined #lisp 16:01:39 <_deepfire> matimago, I'd mostly want this for debugging. 16:01:57 <_deepfire> I think.. 16:03:12 <_deepfire> Well, no, not just for debugging. 16:03:25 sellout: Well I missed  :-) 16:04:37 Oh for crying out loud, CL:VARIABLE is a symbol because of CL:DOCUMENTATION. Seems like they could have gone with keywords there 16:04:42 <_deepfire> I didn't see that unicode char btw. 16:04:43 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:52 It's #\DOUBLE-STRUCK_CAPITAL_N 16:06:04 char-code 8469 16:06:50 gigamonkey: aren't there plenty of other just as generic symbols in the cl package? 16:07:31 locklace: Sure. That one a) suprised me and b) seems like it could have just as well been a keyword. 16:07:46 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.128] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 16:08:01 is it possible to make the common-lisp internals (like +) work for objects of your own classes? (and how?) 16:08:14 madnificent: no. 16:08:37 <_deepfire> madnificient, why would you want that? 16:08:42 You could, however, define a package which shadows CL:+ and define YOUROWN:+ which is the name of a generic function. 16:08:48 _deepfire: cleaner abstraction 16:08:53 madnificent: only works for generic functions, and + and friends are not generic 16:08:59 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 16:09:00 heh! cl-rdbms requires cl-syntax-sugar which requires asdf-system-connections which requires metabang :-P all this for sqlite bindings? 16:09:06 gigamonkey: yes, I've thought of that... it felt ugly 16:09:59 fusss: if you need the bindings, then copy the bindings. if you need an sql lib, then it has some dependencies. i'm sorry that the cl library infrastructure sucks, though... :) 16:10:28 -!- FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:10:38 <_deepfire> madnificient, what would overriding #'cl:+ gain you over #'foo:+? (besides the impossible -- it will not make existing code using #'cl:+ "just work" with extended object set) 16:10:40 FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has joined #lisp 16:10:40 attila_lendvai: since i refuse to use bits and pieces, it only fits that i maintain a private cliki mirror :-P 16:10:50 madnificent: it is not ugly when you use it. 16:11:18 madnificent: instead of (in-package :CL-USER) you would work (in-package :YOUR-OWN-CL-USER) 16:11:38 (defpackage :your-own-cl-user (:use :your-own-cl)) ; notice no :cl 16:11:39 fusss: make sure to use the repos wherever you can... that'll simplify your life a bit 16:12:05 _deepfire: that was good enough... but if it were in the language, I'd be a fool to work around that infrastructure, no? 16:12:13 attila_lendvai: repos? mean darcs? i don't use asdf-install, but i have darcs and a well groomed site-systems library. 16:12:14 madnificent: just use Dylan 16:12:35 fusss: yes 16:13:40 *fusss* notices sbcl.exe maintains a repl history between sessions. neat. 16:13:42 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:13:51 lichtblau: or I could code in Java (didn't at all like your comment) 16:14:02 just use dylan, and be prepare to install visual studio :-P 16:14:08 madnificent: dylan is good 16:14:29 oudeis [n=oudeis@DSL217-132-36-190.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:15:01 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 16:15:06 i'm trying to reimplement DUIM in CL 16:17:00 -!- FZ [n=user@unaffiliated/fz] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:17:16 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:17:23 <_deepfire> fuss, I always thought that cmd.exe does that, not sbcl. 16:17:57 <_deepfire> fusss, oh, you have a site-systems library too? 16:17:58 "ASDF:missing-dependency, component :local-time" <-- how do I sanely google "local-time"? 16:18:40 <_deepfire> heh, there are many of them in cooking, these days, it seems :-) 16:18:43 _deepfire: i have a CL repo and have 5 lisps share the libraries :-) exported over NFS to two other Oses :-P 16:18:47 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:18:54 -!- ejs_ [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:18:57 fusss: common-lisp.net 16:18:58 enigmus_ [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:00 <_deepfire> ah, the set, not the management code 16:19:30 yeah, i am better off writing stupid database front ends for Windows :-P in sbcl, of course 16:20:20 fusss: it's the first match for local-time lisp 16:20:34 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A250F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:20:35 Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has joined #lisp 16:20:47 minion: tell fusss about local-time 16:20:48 fusss: please look at local-time: local-time is a development library for manipulating date and time information in a semi-standard manner. http://www.cliki.net/local-time 16:20:55 *cough* 16:21:06 ahem 16:21:11 ^_^ 16:22:35 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C41D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:22:57 googling local-time common lisp makes it the first hit :p 16:23:08 (to repeat attila) 16:23:19 alright, the horse has been dead since the last draught 16:24:30 I guess I can use CFFI si impliment another languages SCTP socket library 16:24:36 to* 16:25:01 unless there is a way to define my own package 16:25:03 *fusss* hopes this looks windowsy enough http://img384.imageshack.us/my.php?image=basicguido4.png 16:25:39 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@DSL217-132-36-190.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:25:41 fusss: Gimp and Pidgin seem to include a style engine that looks more Windowsy than that. 16:26:11 Not that this screenshot is bad at all! 16:26:27 chandler: yeah, it's builtin into lambda-gtk (you can call (gtk:parse-rc "win32.gtkrc")) but this is as good as it gets 16:27:21 Oh, I thought that was the default Windows style engine. 16:27:28 er, default GTK+ engine 16:27:29 drwhen: i don't really get what you mean, but make sure you look at iolib before that 16:28:10 attila_lendvai: I was looking into sockets for lisp and I came accross this: http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/sockets.html#server 16:28:22 chandler: this IS the default. i think the pidgin/gimp stuff is a little more advanced than the default win32 "theme" (it just does colors, doesn't control how to lower or raise buttons) 16:28:22 antifuchs: does asdf-dependency-grovel handle dependencies on deftypes? (it doesn't seem to work for me) 16:28:28 it describes how to program lisp for TCP sockets 16:28:30 attila_lendvai: Does iolib do SCTP? 16:28:35 and I amd looking into SCTP 16:29:35 I am trying to design a lisp message server using my own protocol which will have the messages sent and recieved over the SCTP protocol 16:29:35 drwhen: I don't think there is anything out there for SCTP. Maybe adding it to iolib would be the right approach. 16:29:40 minion: tell drwhen about iolib 16:29:41 drwhen: direct your attention towards iolib: I/O(mainly networking) library containing: a BSD sockets library, a DNS resolver and an I/O multiplexer that supports select(2), epoll(4) and kqueue(2). http://www.cliki.net/iolib 16:30:42 chandler: I'll look into adding it then 16:30:55 actually, a-d-g doesn't seem to be doing what i expect at all. 16:31:35 ejs_ [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 16:31:51 drwhen: talk to fe[nl]ix for some pre-planning. he's the maintainer... 16:32:13 drwhen: Or, if you are interested in doing implementation-specific work, I think it would be a valuable addition to SBCL's sb-bsd-sockets. 16:32:13 I'm still kinda new at this language though 16:32:16 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 16:32:20 still trying to figure out syntax and all that 16:32:47 after I practice a bit I wouldn't mind contacting them 16:33:16 -!- Xach [n=xach@unnamed.xach.com] has left #lisp 16:33:20 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:33:53 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:34:17 eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:34:53 -!- ``Erik___ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:35:11 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:25 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:38:27 Has anyone heard of any Lisps (speaking generically, not CL's) that support prototypical inheritance a la Self/NewtonScript/Javascript? 16:38:48 gigamonkey: KR does it. 16:39:11 G'morning all. 16:39:13 gigamonkey: T is probably the best example. 16:39:16 gigamonkey: there's an article on /. today that describes such a language. 16:39:31 loke, i think 16:39:34 Fade: Ioke? 16:39:36 beat me. 16:39:55 chandler: really. Need to look back at that, then. 16:40:00 gigamonkey: kr is part of garnet, but IIRC somebody also extracted it to make an independant package. 16:40:26 http://www.cliki.net/KR 16:42:03 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:42:44 chandler: what did they call it in T. I don't see anything in the table of contents of the T manual that look likely. 16:43:50 It's called JOIN. 16:43:59 It's not quite prototypical inheritance. 16:44:28 gigamonkey, that was addressed to you, by the way. 16:44:50 gigamonkey: JOIN and OBJECT. Maybe lumping it into prototypical inheritance is not quite the right category for it, but I'm not sure where else to put it. 16:45:14 Okay, I'll check it out thanks. 16:45:52 Hmmm. Too bad the T Manual PDF is scanned--can't search. 16:45:59 Huh? 16:46:03 Hold on, I have a nicer copy somewhere. 16:46:22 16:46:35 Ah, Riastradh wins. 16:47:15 oudeis [n=oudeis@DSL217-132-36-190.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:47:43 minion: cl-yalog 16:47:44 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``cl-yalog''. 16:47:48 Nicer *and* smaller! 16:48:36 fusss: http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/darcsweb/darcsweb.cgi 16:49:22 -!- trebor_dki [n=user@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:49:24 uchitoru [n=user@85.139.117.150] has joined #lisp 16:49:42 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 16:50:40 nice work there attila! 16:51:35 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 16:51:42 Hmmmm. I'm not seeing a lot about JOIN in there. One example in passing in section 15.7 (page 107) and section 7.3 is allegedly about "Joined objects" but doesn't contain the word JOIN. 16:52:23 Try the first line of the section. 16:52:50 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-248.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:52:58 Of 7.3? 16:53:02 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-096-169.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:25 Um...I think that the PDF in that location is screwed up. My local copy looks very different. 16:54:43 That looks better. Try now. 16:56:55 Uh, exactly the same file. 16:57:10 gigamonkey: Not for me. Try a shift-refresh or something like that. 16:57:37 liiiiiiisp 16:57:42 hello gigamonkey, is this related to the new book on CLOS? 16:57:56 Quadrescence: Please add something of value when you say something. 16:58:05 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 16:58:08 Quadrescence: please try to make your utterings contain some information. 16:58:30 Uh. 16:58:44 There's still a problem in the new file...hmmm... 16:59:18 I can't find the copy I produced. I suspect it evaporated with my cs.indiana.edu account. 16:59:28 Well, I got a new file. (Though I couldn't figure out how to get Firefox to shift-reload on a PDF file so I had to ssh to a box with wget and get it that way--bah, computers.) 16:59:38 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:59:46 beach: CLOS? No. Languages in general, maybe. 16:59:50 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 16:59:58 gigamonkey: ah, that one. Of course! 17:00:09 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 17:00:20 -!- ejs_ [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:00:23 gigamonkey: Heh. I wonder if I'm not the only one who would be very happy if the Firefox developers decided to include a built-in PDF reader. 17:00:47 bah, we'll write one for Closure 17:00:48 Yeah, it's sort of surprising that they haven't, now that you mention it. 17:01:07 beach: ... in Clojure, running in Cloak on Clozure? 17:01:44 lichtblau: Make this happen please. (Clojure on Cloak on Clozure) 17:01:53 chandler: :( But I could be obnoxious earlier. :{ 17:02:08 Quadrescence: If you were, then I'll have to chastise you for that too. 17:02:30 Well, gosh, the error is in the source. 17:03:00 At least, the TeX source. Probably a mistaken transcription from Scribe. 17:03:04 chandler: seriously, I am so tired of Firefox crashing my X server (or am I tired by my X server being crashed by a simple application?). 17:03:26 gigamonkey: You don't by any chance have an idea if "The ANSI Common Lisp Reference" is finally cancelled? 17:03:55 Yep, mistaken transcription from Scribe. 17:04:00 gigamonkey, just a moment while I fix the bug! 17:04:11 beach: I don't think I've seen that kind of lossage for some time. Perhaps your Xorg needs to be updated? 17:04:35 chandler: Chastise me honey. 17:04:35 chandler: I thought the nice Ubuntu people took care of that for me. 17:04:51 Well, I've seen that kind of lossage, but only when running something that's clearly not meant to run on a network display protocol from the 80s (aka Compiz). 17:04:51 Quadrescence: that's enough, OK! 17:05:16 I haven't seen X.org's server crash from Firefox, but I've seen Firefox grind it to a sluggish...slug. 17:06:07 chandler: No, this is just Firefox on a relatively recent Ubuntu. But it might have to do with a plugin like for Flash. 17:06:09 I'm sure you'll envy its speed when we are using the McCLIM-based desktop! 17:06:40 beach: Oh. I don't use the Adobe plugin, but it seems a likely cause of failure. 17:07:17 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 17:07:19 chandler: I don't even know which plugin I use, but I should uninstall it. 17:07:36 I'm tired of my X server's dismal device support. I upgraded to 7.3 to get hotplug support, and it only hotplugs devices I don't have. 17:07:37 chandler: I'm pretty sure it's in serious limbo. I suspect if anyone else wanted to take it over that could be arranged. Or if folks wanted, I bet we could convince Apress to put it up as a Wiki. 17:07:44 gigamonkey, try now. 17:08:05 nyef: time to revive CLXS! 17:08:12 beach: Maybe so! 17:08:41 Or maybe for the linuxwacom people to figure out the whole hotplug thing. 17:08:46 nyef: CL-Vectors seems to be a good start for the drawing stuff. 17:08:55 gigamonkey: I'm mostly just curious. Regarding putting something up as a wiki, I am half tempted to email GLS and ask him if it would be possible to get permission to import the CLtL2 content into a wiki. Maybe the work that was done on the reference book would be a better starting point, depending on how complete it is. 17:09:23 Riastradh: got the November 10, 2008 Pre Beta Draft. Has some stuff about JOIN at any rate. Thanks. 17:09:53 beach: Of course, the problem then is that I have an nvidia display device, so I'm reliant on proprietary drivers for half-decent device support, and on nouveau for future decent device support. 17:09:58 bobrown` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:04 chandler: Would you be interested in a joint attempt to take over the thing? 17:10:23 nyef: I see the problem. 17:10:34 beach: Interested? Definitely. Have time for? I'd have to do some thinking about that one. 17:10:43 Everything else is at least a tractable problem. Do I mean tractable? 17:11:03 Yes, I mean tractable. 17:11:05 chandler: let me know the result of your thinking. 17:11:12 You guys should do it! Split the royalities and you might be able to take each other out to lunch! ;-) (Not that that's the point, obviously.) 17:11:38 If you're interested, let me know and I'll introduce you to the folks at Apress. 17:11:55 nyef: I trust you. I really have no idea how hard the problem with proprietary drivers is. 17:12:15 gigamonkey: not so quick! 17:12:19 cltl2 as a wiki would be awesome. it could record variances between lisp implementations as annotations. 17:12:44 gigamonkey: I have written a few books, so that's not the problem, but this one has some particularly nasty aspects. 17:12:46 cltl2 as a wiki would be awesome. We'd have people putting viagra spam on the integer-length page. 17:12:48 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 17:13:00 *Fade* laughs 17:13:22 gigamonkey: like how much of the Common Lisp HyperSpec can be legally included, and the rights to use the result. 17:14:46 beach: hey, that's a great idea. If you publish large portions of it in book form, and nobody sues you, that makes it higly probable that nobody would sue anyone else for making modified versions available online. :) 17:14:48 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.4] has joined #lisp 17:15:36 beach: I don't know. My basic understanding is that Franz published Common Lisp the Reference pre-ANSI. They own the rights to that and were going to update it and republish. 17:15:38 I would not stick my finger in ANSI or INCITS' eye. 17:16:00 It may or may not be based on some pre-ANSI draft spec. 17:16:02 I'm not sure what the legal situation is for the draft preview, which is essentially equivalent to ANSI. 17:16:34 I have a copy of CLtR but I haven't really looked at it. If I get a chance later, I'll take a peek and see if it's obvious what it's based on. 17:16:40 http://wiki.alu.org/Project_FreeSpec 17:16:59 -!- bobrown [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:16 Bother, there are still more mistakes in the manual. 17:17:39 I also like the idea of updating CLTL2. Perhaps wikiize it but keep enough control over contributors (i.e. make them sign over copyright) so when it's in good shape Apress can publish CLTL3. 17:17:42 chandler: but is the eye looking out of dpANS3 ANSI's eye? 17:17:44 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 17:17:45 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:17:51 beach: One thing that would make it easier is when something known as "kernel modesetting" becomes available. Essentially, there'd be an exposed API to change the video mode on the framebuffer, which would allow for acceptable baseline functionality. 17:18:27 gio123 [n=gio123@91.151.140.4] has joined #lisp 17:18:34 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:18:34 does somebody has the paper:L. Kari, On language equations with invertible operations, Theoret. Comput. Sci. 132 (1994), 129-150. 17:18:36 *gigamonkey* wonders idly how many copies a CLTL3 would sell. More or less than PCL. 17:18:40 ? 17:18:51 gigamonkey: I think there are forms of the creative commons attribution which would allow a book to be published, if Apress isn't interested in preventing others from also publishing the material. 17:19:12 does somebody has the paper:L. Kari, On language equations with invertible operations, Theoret. Comput. Sci. 132 (1994), 129-150. 17:19:14 Then again, I don't know how much value there is in printing it at all. 17:19:22 foom: yeah, well, it might be slightly more complicated than that. 17:19:30 chandler, a good book is worth printing. 17:19:33 Well, they'd probably be interested in exactly that. They're not going to go to all the bother to pay a printer to print copies if someone else can start printing their own if it sells well. 17:19:50 gigamonkey: depending on which version it is, you could be giving people license to make profit off the book 17:19:51 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:01 gigamonkey: Why do I doubt that it will sell well? I want to believe... 17:20:17 gigamonkey: I would just hate to see myself spending lots of time on this for essentially a good lunch as you said, and then have to rewrite it again just to be able to use it myself. 17:20:18 chandler: I doubt it too. 17:20:21 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 17:20:27 gio123: This is #lisp, not #snarf-papers-for-me. 17:20:27 there was a big fuss about an australian company, perfectly legally, using someone's CC-licensed family photos in an ad a while back 17:20:28 well, there are probably a hundred or so copies guaranteed out of this channel alone! 17:20:40 nyef: I would love to learn about all those things some day. 17:20:55 Riastradh: Well, it would be possible to make a print-on-demand version. 17:20:57 beach: So would I. Maybe next year. 17:21:05 *rsynnott* always thought a social network-y thing for exchanging academic papers would be useful 17:21:06 beach: well, I'm sure you could do a deal with Apress similar to mine (and other Apress offers) that guarantees the right to keep it on the web. 17:21:14 chandler: dont be rude 17:21:29 I don't know if they'd agree to allowing just anyone to make arbitrary electronic derivative works. 17:21:31 I do think print-on-demand is a good idea for technical works with limited draw. 17:21:31 just don't get mathworld'd. :( 17:21:32 But they might. 17:21:52 chandler: print-on-demand is very expensive, though, generally 17:21:52 I don't have any personal experience with Apress's books, but I don't print my own books if I can buy them printed on good paper wtih a good binding. 17:21:59 With, even. 17:22:00 compared to conventional books, certainly 17:22:04 gio123: I am not being rude. I am setting a boundaries for the channel. 17:22:12 s/a boundaries/boundaries/ 17:22:22 gio123: chandler wasn't rude, and you asked twice, even though everyone saw it the first time. 17:22:39 chandler: yeah. Perhaps the way to go would be to 1) get Steele to agree to wikiizing CLTL2 2) Let folks work on it to turn it into CLTL3. 3) When it's in good shape, turn it into a nicely typeset PDF and sell on Lulu.com or Amazon's PoD service. 17:22:48 -!- sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:22:51 rsynnott: My copy of CLtL2 was not cheap, either. :-) 17:22:54 (But then perhaps I care more about well-typeset, well-printed, and well-bound books than most. On the other hand, perhaps those who don't care are less keen in reading on dead trees anyway.) 17:22:58 gigamonkey: I am not sure that would be enough for me to invest that much time in it. 17:23:30 beach: what do you want--an electronic reference you can use for on-line documentation in Closure? 17:23:32 well, i guess there's be an outpouring of new lispy TeX utilities. 17:23:43 gigamonkey: close to that, yes. 17:23:46 gigamonkey: This is also a possible back-door to clean up some of the errors and clarification-needed sections in ANSI CL, too. 17:24:08 Fade: Feel free to start on cliTeXmacs. :-P 17:24:22 hah 17:24:26 Anyway, I must vanish now! 17:24:39 sounds like it would spend most of its time GC-ing 17:24:40 gigamonkey, I've fixed the more egregious errors in the manual. 17:24:40 :) 17:24:44 At least, in that section. 17:24:46 *Riastradh* vanishes. 17:24:47 If you start with CLtL2 under some license that doesn't allow printing books, and only accepting new submissions under a license that lets anyone do anything would achieve your objective, if you can pull off being the only one to get a license to reprint CLtL2. :) 17:24:47 who is doing the work on climacs these days? 17:24:50 chandler: yeah. For that CLTL3 would be great. Because it could be a non-normative but highly authoritative statement of 'the spec says this but in this case it is wrong and all implementors do it this way.' 17:24:57 gigamonkey: I liked the idea of doing CLtL3 as a wiki because it would allow some of the history sections to be foldable annotations to the document. 17:25:03 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 17:25:06 Fade: if anyone is, it's Athas. 17:25:30 Fade: you can always mail your suggestions to the mailing list. 17:25:40 Fade: though perhaps you feel like taking over? 17:25:45 That history is valuable, but doesn't need to be immediately visible to the reader. 17:25:51 i wish I had that kind of free time. :/ 17:26:02 Fade: don't we all? 17:26:07 I wonder if Digital Press is still around in any legal sense? 17:26:08 indeed 17:27:30 ooh, berkeley db is non-gratis :-P 17:27:38 Fade: I don't think the work would be great, provided you know something about what the code is doing. It is basically working, and so just needs fixes due to changes in the "environment". 17:28:05 fusss: If you are looking for a key-value store, I would suggest looking at Tokyo Cabinet. There isn't a Lisp interface yet, but I'd love to see one! 17:28:10 chandler: although some of those sections actually correct/update parts of the main text... 17:28:12 gigamonkey: I have no idea. 17:28:43 locklace: Right. So the challenge would be to fold them in so that it reads like a complete document when the history is hidden. 17:28:54 chandler: if it's in C, i'm dying to write a useful cffi (that isn't overly complex that is, my win32-cffi has been shelved for posterity ;-) 17:29:04 chandler: yep, that would be ideal 17:29:37 gigamonkey: Also, CLTL3 could very well be normative if it defines a feature :cltl3 that must be present on an implementation that follows the CLTL3 clarifications. 17:29:47 chandler: i wasn't something that can be a good/gratis Elephant backend 17:29:49 fusss: Yes, it is, though there is also a socket interface to it. 17:30:02 fusss: See http://tokyocabinet.sourceforge.net/index.html 17:30:02 fusss: you can use BDB in a server for free, I believe 17:30:17 I have a very high opinion of the TC implementation. 17:30:33 chandler: well, there's that. 17:30:41 and postgres has liberal licensing, though it may or may not fit with your usage pattern 17:30:54 in 2000 i used a C library, also named "Elephant", written by none other than Kaz :-) 17:30:54 fusss: See http://tokyocabinet.sourceforge.net/benchmark.pdf for the reason why. 17:31:09 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-145-185.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 17:31:33 woah! 17:32:18 hmm, it's LGPL; does that have implications for the license of a lisp interface to it? 17:32:41 rsynnott: I wouldn't think so. 17:32:44 gigamonkey: I am also interested because I would like to create a wiki where edits happen on a separate "trunk" copy of the page and are pushed to the front page after a review by an editor. 17:32:45 chandler: wow, assuming it's an honest benchmark, that's very impressive 17:32:47 ffi keeps the lgpl code at a safe distance, imo 17:33:15 fusss: I don't think that's true. 17:33:16 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:33:36 LGPL being an unsuitable license for actual lisp code 17:33:42 rama_su [n=blood@static-72-64-71-11.dllstx.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:33:53 rsynnott: I should be more specific. You would have to make it possible to use a new version of the library. 17:34:08 rsynnott: why do you think so? 17:34:27 if all i'm doing is loading a shared library at runtime? how should that be different than calling it from C? 17:34:32 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:34:38 rsynnott: I don't think it would contaminate the Lisp code at all. The Lisp code plus the implementation would simply be a work which uses the library, and provided the library is loaded dynamically and can be replaced by the user, there should be no issues. 17:34:50 fusss: The restrictions apply in C as well. 17:35:02 rsynnott: why is lgpl unsuitable for lisp code? 17:35:15 rsynnott: chandler expressed it very well. 17:35:42 chandler: yep, I believe that's probably correct 17:35:53 Fade: due to ambiguities addressed in the LLGPL 17:36:35 If you really want to keep it at arm's length, use the socket interface, though you'll sacrifice speed to do so. 17:36:47 rsynnott: you would have to be more explicit than that to convince me. 17:36:55 But, I don't see any reason to do so. 17:36:59 (the LGPL defines cases where the library is linked statically or dynamically; a statically linked library is considered a derivative work) 17:37:15 hrmn 17:37:21 beach: The worrying part of the LGPL for me was the reference to a macro of more than ten lines, or something like that. 17:37:30 should a loaded FASL, say, be considered statically or dynamically linked? :) 17:37:48 (the LGPL doesn't really address other circumstances) 17:37:52 rsynnott: can you point me to the passage you are referring to? 17:37:56 i haven't released any projects in CL yet. is there a problem releasing code under the GPL that is hosted by sbcl? 17:38:12 Fade: yes, nobody will ever use it. 17:38:13 hosted by? 17:38:17 LGPL section five 17:38:26 as in built upon 17:38:27 Fade: I believe all the licenses in SBCL would be compatible with the GPL, but I'd urge you not to do that anyway. 17:38:45 here's Franz's clarifier: http://opensource.franz.com/preamble.html 17:38:53 in general, i like the gpl, at least v2. i haven't looked at v3. 17:39:27 Fade: I agree, and I think most people exaggerate the problems. 17:39:44 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:39:56 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 17:40:22 it's a nightmare 17:40:30 -!- azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:40:32 I personally used to drink the GPL kool-aid. Now i have the righteousness of the reformed. 17:40:32 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.157.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:40:40 Fade: I think the GPL is being disingenuous when it affects the licensing of code that related in any way except dynamic linking. 17:40:54 Argh. "that is not related" 17:41:24 drewc: and that is? 17:41:24 especially since that wording doesn't work that well in many circumstances 17:41:40 (also rather unfair on people running IRIX :) ) 17:41:48 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C41D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:41:53 (it still doesn't have standard dynamic linking, I think) 17:41:58 god, i'm up to my neck in an IRIX snafu this week. :P 17:42:06 okay, that was off topic. 17:42:08 and it keeps getting worse 17:42:29 <_deepfire> locklace, what are you talking about? 17:42:47 It presents it as a matter of preserving freedom, but I don't think that I ought to tell other people how to license their code when its only relation to mine is that it references symbols defined in mine. I don't have problems with licenses that do affect programs that are truly derived from mine. 17:42:59 _deepfire: gpl 17:43:25 chandler: but you are free not to use it. 17:43:42 chandler: I think your reading is incorrect, especially given the wide distribution of display drivers as binary wedges for the linux kernel. 17:43:57 chandler: it's hard to make that distinction, given that any given binary could be viewed as a collection of symbols 17:43:59 ianal 17:44:02 Is this channel more irritable and intolerant during this time of day? 17:44:07 I think the whole thing is uncertain enough that people may well steer away from [L]GPL just to avoid the legal ambiguity 17:44:15 Fade: Linus has specifically allowed that. 17:44:16 Quadrescence: have you stopped beating your wife yet? 17:44:23 :) 17:44:32 beach: I think what eventually turned me off was the redefining of 'freedom' to mean 'restricted use', and the C-centric language. 17:44:33 Fade: Yes I have. :o 17:44:35 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:44:35 Quadrescence: you have already been told to please add some information in your utterances. 17:44:37 rsynnott: that is exactly it, it is a poorly-defined legal nightmare 17:45:02 Quadrescence: you are certainly trying to make it so. 17:45:04 beach: :( Fine. I'll wait till night when the friendly people come on. 17:45:06 dlowe: Then I would make that distinction conservatively. 17:45:09 drewc: those are just words, and I can see how that happened, but that doesn't change the facts. 17:45:19 I know I'd be a lot more paranoid if I was actually distributing a products 17:45:21 Quadrescence: what did you want? 17:45:22 -s 17:45:26 Fade: Please read http://clisp.cvs.sourceforge.net/*checkout*/clisp/clisp/doc/Why-CLISP-is-under-GPL and then tell me that my reading is incorrect. 17:45:31 parpet [n=parpet@adsl-89-134-7-253.monradsl.monornet.hu] has joined #lisp 17:45:33 fortunately, I'm doing webapps, which seem rather safer 17:45:40 (the AGPL never took off) 17:46:36 rsynnott: I'm actually using the AGPL >_> 17:46:40 Fade: Nothing really. Just learning lisp I guess, while failing at my attempt to come off as ...[I don't know how to complete this sentence]. 17:47:07 chandler: I suspect that things have eased up a bit since then; I know of non-GPL things which use readline 17:47:23 mandrake [n=mandrake@0x573a5cb9.ngnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 17:47:28 beach: agreed, but i think the words and rhetoric are the main reason for the popularity of GPL, and the the 'facts' as it were. 17:47:39 Quadrescence: have you got slime working yet? 17:48:00 rsynnott: I don't know about that. The reasoning in that exchange is so difficult for me to figure out that my only conclusion is to stay far, far away from GPL'ed libraries. 17:48:11 I don't see how more liberal licenses (BSD et al) are materially worse than it, and they will tend to lead to more people using, and thus hopefully contributing 17:48:16 can I use non_blockingpipelines with lisp? 17:48:23 drewc: I'm not much for arguing over licenses, but I disagree. :-\ 17:48:36 Quadrescence: check out Practical Common Lisp 17:48:37 beach: sorry 'and not the facts'. 17:48:41 (I am, possibly foolishly, assuming that Franz know what they're talking about with the LLGPL, and it's safe) 17:48:59 locklace: Unfortunately not. I was playing in emacs earlier (I didn't sleep last night/since we last talked). And I downloaded slime I think. But haven't tinkered with it. Right now, I am just using notepad++ under wine as a temporary thing. 17:49:15 Quadrescence: you should really try slime 17:49:17 I always figured the difference was If you want to share your code *only* with people who also want to share use GPL. If you want to share with everyone, use BSD. 17:49:21 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@adsl-dyn223.91-127-180.t-com.sk] has left #lisp 17:49:52 notepad? 17:50:02 notepad++ 17:50:04 suddenly I feel like i've been punked. 17:50:10 heh 17:50:23 <_deepfire> gigamonkey, why this perception becomes twisted in recent times, I fail to understand. 17:50:36 Quadrescence: ok, first thing, assuming you have your lisp working (sbcl?) is pull a copy of latest slime from cvs, put it in a reasonable place, and add (require 'slim) and (slime-setup '(slime-fancy)) to your .emacs 17:50:37 I think both of those are reasonable positions, depending on your goals. For Lisp I prefer the latter because I'm more interested in people using Lisp than in helping create the Free Software Utopia. 17:50:44 Fade: notepad++ is an editor which is based on the Scintilla editing library. There are other editors which run natively under Linux which use that widget, too. 17:51:10 ah 17:51:21 gigamonkey: well, there's certain cases where you'd want to use the GPL, and those tend to involve forceful community building around an application 17:51:38 sykopomp: Don't you mean "freedomful"? 17:51:41 utowhat 17:52:06 chandler: I'm not really trying to be cheeky right now :) 17:52:21 s/require 'slim)/require 'slime)/ 17:52:37 drewc: Maybe so. Personally, I have read both the GPL and the LGPL in detail, and I consider them to be my guarantee that nobody will steal my work, while still allowing me to make it available to others. I don't see any other license doing that, and I reserve the rights to release my stuff according to either the GPL or the LGPL as I see fit. 17:52:42 yes. I think that falls under the category of "only share with people who also want to share". 17:52:50 The reason I AGPLd my project is because I want a community to build around it, and have everyone's code grow together, and promote code sharing amongst derivative projects much more than a BSD license would. 17:52:59 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 17:53:27 awesome, a licencing debate 17:53:49 Krystof: we're warming up for Lisp-1/Lisp-2. 17:53:51 i think there's a pretty strong argument that the bsd license contributed to the general obscurity of bsd, while linux which got a later start flourished and generated a public name. 17:53:56 hello Krystof, sorry you came in at this time. 17:54:02 beach: I question whether your definition of "stealing" really meshes with that of the ordinary person. I personally view (load-shared-object "/usr/lib/libreadline.so") as not being stealing, but perhaps you side with the publishers who would like to forbid others from publishing books that even reference Harry Potter. 17:54:03 plus, there's a separation between content and code, and it's pretty clear, so people are free to license their content under something proprietary, while giving me access to their patches ;) 17:54:18 by the way, i thought of using lisp for generating a symbol stream represinting music to go to my binary sequencer, is this possible? 17:54:21 lots of people used the bsd codebase and never contributed or attributed it. Juniper's supervisor code comes directly to mind. 17:54:26 beach: yep, if you want to avoid people using it commerciall, [L]GPL is the way to go 17:54:43 (except that people can still use that in webservers and such) 17:54:47 Fade: I think it's a bit late to be making that argument, given that the most widespread UNIX-clone is BSD these days. 17:54:47 rsynnott: was that a deliberate distortion of what I said? 17:54:52 rsynnott: not necessarily! 17:55:07 but people may be more likely to contribute if they can use it commercially; it's a trade-off 17:55:13 beach: nope; sorry :S 17:55:21 chandler: via what, OS X? :) 17:55:21 Krystof: Yes, it's the biannual licensing debate. Feel free to start trolling. 17:55:24 Fade: Yes. 17:55:47 OS X is more GNU than bsd at this point. 17:55:56 chandler: I agree that that's not stealing. 17:55:59 Fade: say what. 17:56:11 chandler: that harry potter thing is a rather more extreme case, and is probably not actually legal in most countries 17:56:20 well, the microkernel was never bsd, so there were bsd components in the userland. 17:56:29 'course, I guess this is all way off topic. 17:56:38 rsynnott: I think the FSF's interpretation of the GPL is no less absurd. 17:56:45 antgreen [n=green@24.156.140.114] has joined #lisp 17:56:52 beach: 'Theft' in that case needs to be defined... the GPL deals with distribution, not use, so someone can 'steal' all they want. I was part of a company that sold a body of mostly GPL'd code for $350+ million... lots of patches and we rarely gave anything back under GPL.. 17:56:53 Fade: We could equally argue that CLISP has suffered in popularity due to its license, too. 17:57:04 personally I only share my own sources with interested people requesting by email 17:57:13 i think clisp suffered because sbcl is a better lisp. 17:57:17 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:57:18 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:57:25 beach: we did, however, contribute a lot of BSD code, because our lawyers were not afraid of it :) 17:57:25 drewc: I am well aware of what the (L)GPL licenses say. 17:57:33 In fact, I think there's an argument to be made that Common Lisp would be more popular today if CLISP had been licensed under a permissive license. 17:57:38 chandler: i think it's suffered because it doesn't have as cool an endorsement phrase as sbcl 17:57:39 Fade: it's possible that people would have used and worked on clisp more if they could actually use it for anything, though 17:57:41 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 17:57:55 locklace: What's SBCL's endorsement phrase? 17:57:57 drewc: I am not in such a situation. 17:58:00 no kitten of death, either :) 17:58:01 beach: i didn't mean to imply otherwise :) 17:58:15 chandler: save-lisp-and-die? 17:58:19 chandler: "I Would Gladly Take It Up The Ass From SBCL" 17:58:25 It's possible people would have worked on CLISP more if it wasn't a twisty maze of .d files. 17:58:26 Krystof: Oh. That always seems like a threat to me. 17:58:34 I'm with gigamonkey 17:58:46 gigamonkey: Shh, you're ruining my point. 17:58:49 The German comments probably didn't help much either. 17:58:56 the barrier to hacking entry for dilettantes (read, me 10 years ago) is way higher in D than in CL itself 17:58:57 rsynnott, not even kittens of extraordinary size? 17:59:35 I always assumed that the interaction between the lisp environment and the application that runs on top of it was generally comparable to the relationship between gcc and code compiled with it. lots of commercial applications are built on the gcc toolchain. 17:59:51 I actually did a fair bit of work long ago, with blessings from the maintainers, to convert the source to actual C but was stymied by the lack of a Microsoft C99 compiler. 17:59:51 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 18:00:04 Fade: That would be nice, but that's not what the CLISP authors believe, nor the GNU Smalltalk authors. 18:00:17 Fade: you can't spell assume without.... 18:00:22 Fade: clisp people claim otherwise: http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/faq.html#faq-licensing 18:00:34 (under certain circumstances) 18:00:35 Fade: that's not true, given that you can change your Lisp system "your tripped the package lock! Do it anyway?". 18:01:09 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 18:01:12 i started in cl with sbcl, so I don't have much experience with the clisp system. 18:01:23 also, not a lawyer. 18:01:26 :P 18:01:43 beach: FWIW, i like GPL for applications.. just not for libraries or system-level code. 18:01:50 Fade: that should be a clear indication that your assumptions might be wrong. 18:02:01 drewc: is that because you program applications, not libraries or system-level code? 18:02:06 gilberth [n=gilbert@d015090.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 18:02:09 your system-level code is my application 18:02:16 well, it hasn't been an issue to date, but may be in the future, which is why I asked the question originally. 18:02:31 drewc: that's interesting but irrelevant really. I think anyone who read the conditions and made a decision should be respected for it. 18:02:34 drewc: your application is my platform, eventually 18:02:38 if a stranger on irc tells you he's a lawer, should you believe that? 18:02:39 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-207-062.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:48 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl5-65-180.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:02:54 cmm: if he's called "John Q Splittist", then yes 18:03:01 beach: oh, absolutely 18:03:06 gilberth: hey! 18:03:13 Anyway, having egged on this licensing debate, I will now leave. Sorry! 18:03:27 people are entirely free to license their stuff however they wish 18:03:40 beach: hi there. 18:03:47 I just write in my own name 18:03:57 user___ [n=user@p5492519F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:04:06 gilberth: so you really think (or know) that your output-recording replacement will break everything? 18:04:18 Krystof: nope, it's because i use GPL apps without much trouble, but i can't use GPL libraries without the whole 'taint' issue coming up. 18:04:40 erm, I think that's my point 18:04:42 this clisp interpretation of the GPL is pretty radical. 18:04:58 it does seem slightly over-the-top 18:05:06 Fade: you mean the interpretation forced on clisp by RMS ? 18:05:12 possibly because they had a similarly-radical version forced on them by RMS 18:05:12 hi all. is it the best way to get the algarisms of a number into a list, recursevily append (truncate (/ number 10.0)) ? thnks 18:05:16 gilberth: Also (while you are here), I have continued thinking about CLIM-3: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/CLIM-3.git 18:05:30 Quadrescence: pong? 18:05:38 gilberth: (In case you happen to have GIT installed) 18:05:46 zbigniew: :D You have a very high ping. 18:05:52 uchitoru: that question is hard to parse. 18:06:02 beach: I believe so. At the very least the relative coordinates will break things. But I never actually attempted to give it a try. 18:06:02 Fade: I don't see why it's over the top. For it to apply, you need to be distributing _binaries_ of your work, produced by CLISP and containing CLISP code 18:06:12 gilberth: Ah, too bad. 18:06:18 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 18:07:06 and I don't think the interpretation of the GPL was "forced" on CLISP by RMS; Bruno Haible was already in agreement with the FSF's general aims and sympathetic to producing a GPLed lisp in any case 18:07:50 wasn't it that clisp was tainted by libreadline and he then decided gpl would be a good idea anyway? 18:07:56 zbigniew: Your last name doesn't start with a Z does it? 18:08:06 gpl virality at work. 18:08:10 can lisp programs be compiled to a binary executable? 18:08:26 minion: tell mandrake about executables 18:08:28 mandrake: look at executables: creating executables: Newcomers to Lisp often ask how to "create an executable" from their Lisp program. http://www.cliki.net/creating%20executables 18:08:42 thanks 18:08:51 Krystof: I am not saying it was. I merely use it to illustrate how a program can be tainted by merely making reference to another program, at least according to RMS's interpretation of the GPL. 18:08:57 mandrake: No problem. 18:09:16 I wasn't responding to you, chandler, but to drewc 18:09:20 Oh, OK. 18:09:27 (and to Fade) 18:09:30 im only a bit confused whether lisp can keep up with my translator 18:09:46 Quadrescence: did you ping me for a treatise on alphanumerics, or did you have a relevant question? 18:09:50 *chandler* will now skedaddle 18:10:07 mandrake: for us to help you with that, you would have to explain what the problem might be. 18:10:22 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:10:28 *zbigniew* reviews the logs ... never mind 18:10:39 mandrake: but for starters, I think you are confusing compilation to native code with generating executables. 18:10:42 gigamonkey lol, i want to get into a list the algarisms in a number. like 123 would be (1 2 3). i figured out i can do that by recursevely append the integer part of number with (truncate (/ number 10.0)). but i guess thats has a lot of manipulation since i have to reverse the list (i guess.. im a newbie...). My question is there some other way of doing this 18:10:46 beach: that the output might be slower than the input of my sequencer / sound translator 18:10:53 zbigniew: I thought maybe you were someone with the initials Z.Z., and if that is the case, it would me by pleasure to meet you. 18:11:00 mandrake: as I suspected... 18:11:12 beach: yea it's for realtime buffers 18:11:31 Quadrescence: can you carry on that discussion by private messages please? 18:11:31 mandrake: generation of native code is usually done on-the-fly in Lisp, without the need for executable files. 18:11:35 Krystof: It's been a while since i read the email exchange, but i seem to recall that GPL was not something that clisp initially wanted, and Bruno tries to outline numerous methods of distribution in an attempt to avoid the GPL, all of which RMS denied. 18:11:43 H4ns: No. I'm going to bed now. 18:11:48 beach: nice 18:11:57 Quadrescence: ok. do that tomorrow then. 18:11:58 mandrake: you are confusing batch with compilation and interactivity with interpretation. 18:12:06 yeah 18:12:11 beach: im just concerned with the io speeds 18:12:21 Krystof: both my memory and interpretation could be off, and i have never spoken with either party about it directly, so i'll just shut up :) 18:12:26 mandrake: that's a completely different issue altogether. 18:12:32 beach: yes 18:12:40 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@vpnwwwext.rz.uni-karlsruhe.de] has quit [] 18:13:20 mandrake: I/O is usually orders of magnitude slower than the buffer manipulation anyway. 18:13:21 I don't know where the "algarism" neologism comes from, but it's surprisingly prevalent 18:13:22 beach: but I can just use more general symbols for less traffic heh 18:13:26 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 18:13:47 drewc: my reading of the exchange is that Bruno was playing devil's advocate 18:14:05 uchitoru: if you loop and PUSH the digits from least significant to most significant, at the end the list will be in the order you want. 18:14:17 Also "algarism" is not a word I'm familiar with. 18:14:30 sorry man. bad english 18:14:37 uchitoru: indeed. 18:14:38 digit* 18:14:43 -!- elurin [n=user@88.224.44.54] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:14:43 gigamonkey: perl's Text::Roman appears to use that word 18:14:56 my woodware dictionary, however, does not believe in it 18:15:28 since Text::Roman's documentation is "Converts roman algarism in integer numbers", I blame non-native English speakers 18:15:29 *beach* vanishes to spend time with his (admittedly small) family. 18:15:39 <_deepfire> as far as a brief google shows, "algarism" comes from arabic languages 18:16:09 uchitoru: what's your native language? 18:16:21 is there any good tutorials for writing an ouput chain in lisp? 18:16:36 Portuguese 18:16:42 mandrake: you mean like iptables? 18:16:45 and yours? 18:16:48 English. 18:16:52 =) 18:16:57 dlowe: just an output stream 18:16:58 Is "algarism" close to some Portuguese word? 18:17:03 algarism is not arabic, i assure you :-) 18:17:08 i find the language quite a barrier on computer programing 18:17:13 Krystof: That could indeed be the case, or that he was trying to justify the GPL conversion to his users. I'm going to have to concede the point.. 'forced' is not the word to use. 18:17:19 yep. Algarismo 18:17:36 algorithm? 18:17:41 Meaning the digits '1', '2', '3' in '123'? 18:18:05 something like while :;do echo test;done 18:18:06 digits in arabic are "arqam" 18:18:08 *housel* avoids Al Gore-ism 18:18:14 LOL 18:18:17 haha 18:19:04 lazy way: (map 'list #'digit-char-p (princ-to-string "123")) 18:19:15 s/"123"/123/ 18:19:34 how do I run lisp one-liners? 18:19:42 One line at a time. 18:19:53 i cant imagine my felow friends that work with computers here in Port. sure know less english then me. they couldn't possibly post a question here. thats for sure. 18:19:58 mandrake: typically you'll live in your Lisp REPL> 18:19:58 using some specific interpreter? 18:20:00 i guess i can't 2 lol 18:20:20 ok 18:20:31 uchitoru: hey, you're doing a lot better than I would in any non-English language. My hat's off to you. 18:20:48 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:17 i spell my own native language worse than english lol 18:21:30 -!- hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279776357.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 18:21:40 *fusss* is a professional translator 18:21:50 was 18:21:52 there's but one step from GPL to lol 18:22:45 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 18:22:46 *fusss* now he is a profesional waiter .. waiting or lambda-gtk to recompile that is 18:23:47 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-207-062.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:27:09 giga: so I need a lisp shell of some sort? 18:27:36 mandrake: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/lather-rinse-repeat-a-tour-of-the-repl.html 18:27:38 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 18:27:43 mandrake, the lisp compiler/etc is the shell .. 18:27:54 minion: tell mandrake about that-dead-sexy-book 18:27:55 mandrake: direct your attention towards that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 18:27:58 ok great 18:27:59 go read that 18:28:06 thank you very much 18:28:15 minion: tell mandrake about slime 18:28:16 mandrake: have a look at slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 18:28:18 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@DSL217-132-36-190.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:28:19 ;) well im off to cook. see you when im more on it 18:28:33 there's your "IDE" 18:28:43 -!- mandrake [n=mandrake@0x573a5cb9.ngnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 18:29:28 <_deepfire> god, save me from NFS... and give linux another root-capable filesystem. 18:29:47 <_deepfire> network filesystem, that is. 18:31:56 oudeis [n=oudeis@DSL217-132-36-190.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:33:07 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-207-062.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:57 rme [n=rme@pool-70-106-128-43.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:39:45 thnks a lot back there guys. problem solved! 18:40:22 _deepfire: that's a pain i can sympathize with. 18:41:43 ah, yes, lovely, isn't it? 18:42:04 particularly when you lose connection to the file server, and your application just sits there, unkillable 18:42:30 50k lines in my slime buffer just compiling lambda-gtk ONCE! 18:42:47 really, what's wrong with NFS? 18:43:02 gigamonkey one more thing about Portugal and English language. I've noticed that in here we dont have any diversity in language teaching. Its strictly English for everyone and French for some priveliged students. 18:43:10 whether or not apps are unkillable is an option, btw. 18:43:59 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 18:44:13 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-146.kosnet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:13 fusss: ah, sbcl likes a good complain 18:44:32 wow I was looking at the sicp header files for the api in C and seeing how to add that to the CL I/O Lib 18:44:37 I am going to go rest.. 18:44:41 its kinda wierd cause there's lots of spanish emigrants an portugueses imigrants there. spanish is not taugth here or portuguese in spain 18:44:55 -!- drwhen is now known as drwhen|sleep 18:45:09 by sicp I mean SCTP 18:45:13 sorry tired 18:45:41 uchitoru: though you could probably learn Spanish pretty easily if you wanted, no? 18:45:56 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 18:46:34 drwhen|sleep: are you trying to generate FFIs automatically? 18:46:58 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.161.208] has joined #lisp 18:47:06 fusss: I've done that, too. 18:47:13 For C++. But the project died in an early stage ;) 18:47:44 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:48:45 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.161.208] has quit [Client Quit] 18:49:46 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:51:20 sure. but its not that linear. for a spanish guy is kinda hard to learn portuguese for instace. or some regions of portugal. where the "dialet" is diferent 18:52:01 uchitoru: I've found it quite easy to understand brazilian portuguese. I've had short conversations with a speaker of it. 18:52:06 and its almost has hard has speaking italian... 18:52:09 me in spanish, him in portuguese 18:52:19 sykopomp where r u from? 18:52:27 oh 18:53:52 sure its a good tool to understand but its no so easy in a Spanish - Portuguese convesation for the spanish to understand as the portuguese understands spanish 18:53:53 -!- wormil [n=Miranda@adsl-070-155-056-058.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:53:55 Puerto Rico.. which is funny, since the Puerto Rican dialect is probably one of the.. uhh.. messier Spanish dialects. 18:54:06 yup thats it 18:54:36 (I say that from my experiences with people from various other countries, who have a terribly hard time understanding me) 18:54:41 that fact is 900 years old. 18:55:00 sykopomp: wait, what are you saying? 18:55:27 gigamonkey: Puerto Rican spanish is apparently really hard to understand for anyone except puerto ricans. 18:55:44 sykopomp: that was a little joke there. ;-) 18:55:52 ...bah 18:56:00 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 18:56:09 uchitoru: voce brasileiro? 18:56:13 could be worse, could be worse; no-one even SPEAKS our official first language :) 18:56:22 fusss: não. 18:56:42 .pt :-) 18:56:50 .pt=) 18:56:55 rsynnott: what language is that? 18:57:16 -!- kib2_ [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:57:29 (which eventually turned out vaguely useful; the Irish version of the constitution, which takes preference, differs from the English one on an important point, and so it may be possible to legalise gay marriage without a horrible referendum) 18:57:33 gigamonkey: Irish 18:58:02 Is Irish a synonym for Gaelic? 18:58:05 s/gay marriage/equal marriage rights/g 18:58:13 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-106-128-43.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 18:58:28 or universal suffarge :-P 18:58:30 well, for what's called Gaeilge in Irish 18:58:42 (Gaelic can mean a number of different languages) 18:59:13 but Irish people generally call it Irish, just as French people who are speaking English generally call French French 18:59:46 rsynnott: I see. Speaking of Gaelige, I need to dig up my Kila CDs 18:59:51 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 19:00:00 about 1% of Irish people actually speak it fluently 19:00:02 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 19:01:12 esperanto, ftw! 19:01:37 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 19:01:37 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 19:01:50 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 19:01:51 fusss: we're perhaps unusual in having always had universal sufferage 19:01:58 (since independence) 19:02:34 i was using "universal sufferage" as a hackish pun for "universal suffering" .. i.e. marriage for all ;-) 19:02:46 ah :) 19:03:39 here that raises scandals on control of votes by political parties (in the assembly) 19:04:09 shall the law be hacked... 19:04:27 wiki.constitution.gov! 19:04:46 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:12 -!- gio123 [n=gio123@91.151.140.4] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:05:32 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 19:05:54 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 19:07:12 the downside is that it's an AMAZINGLY good way of fillibustering; if a politician gives a speech in Irish, most of the rest won't be able to understand him, and there'll be a wait for translation 19:07:34 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:18 <_deepfire> I never really understood the point of allowing filibuster. 19:09:46 <_deepfire> It is a disgusting hack. 19:10:51 -!- bobbysmith0071 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:11:22 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #lisp 19:12:07 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-32-174.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 19:13:14 -!- drwhen|sleep [n=drwho@209-112-181-104.static.acsalaska.net] has quit ["”\(^?^)” LET THE GOOD TIMES ROLL! "\(^?^)""] 19:13:52 disallowing it might be a more disgusting one 19:14:35 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.243.162] has joined #lisp 19:14:47 it's a DoS, but I wonder how to avoid it without affecting the democratic side of the process 19:15:01 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:15:18 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 19:16:54 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 19:18:36 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 19:21:55 -!- H4ns [n=hans@c-71-232-4-167.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:22:25 hmm, my Windows Emacs seems to be slightly broken 19:22:45 does slime have terribly recent emacs requirements? 19:23:03 is fine on mac and linux, but the same version behaves weirdly on the NT onwe 19:24:05 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:24:10 rsynnott: it seems like RMS' response to any issues with the windows version of emacs tends to be 'screw them and their anti-freedom' >_> 19:24:22 so I wouldn't put much hope into it working too well... 19:25:34 ah :S 19:25:35 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:26:13 ah, though there is a newer version than the one I have; I should probably try that 19:26:29 (it's useful to have for connecting to remote images) 19:26:46 -!- xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.251.9] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:27:03 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 19:28:25 kib2_ [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:44 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 19:29:00 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:33:01 H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 19:33:34 Good evening. 19:34:13 Hello beach. 19:36:21 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has left #lisp 19:36:38 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 19:36:41 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-713600bffc6fd766] has joined #lisp 19:37:55 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:42:24 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:42:45 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:42:55 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:43:00 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:44:26 -!- parpet [n=parpet@adsl-89-134-7-253.monradsl.monornet.hu] has left #lisp 19:47:54 elurin [n=user@88.224.44.54] has joined #lisp 19:49:27 hi, has anybody written a wrapper around ming library for creating flash animations? 19:50:13 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:51:41 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-195.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 19:53:45 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-161.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 19:55:14 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 19:55:16 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 19:55:31 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:55:32 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 19:55:57 ``Erik___ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:55:59 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-161.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Client Quit] 19:56:33 -!- shiki9_ [n=kenroy@76.76.161.72] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:56:58 shiki9_ [n=kenroy@209.59.101.106] has joined #lisp 19:58:36 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:02:30 -!- kib2_ [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:02:31 bashyal [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has joined #lisp 20:02:55 -!- ebzzry__ is now known as ebzzry 20:05:29 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:05:34 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 20:05:45 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:05:49 NuMaStresa [n=orion@unaffiliated/numastresa] has joined #lisp 20:07:15 mejja [n=user@c-4db6e555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 20:09:09 milanj [n=milan@212.200.193.182] has joined #lisp 20:10:53 puchacz: I don't know about that but I have this idea that there are some CL native libraries for creating Flash foo. 20:13:29 -!- _schulte_ [n=Eric@c-98-203-235-80.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:14:38 hi, does anybody know about the cl-fann library (http://code.google.com/p/cl-fann/), or its author? 20:16:10 -!- jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:16:26 jsnell [n=jsnell@vasara.proghammer.com] has joined #lisp 20:17:58 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4ca806d3d60f16d1] has joined #lisp 20:20:01 hrm ... the code i had budgeted the entire day to code is done and appears to be bug free and functional... and it's just past noon. 20:20:13 ... that can't be right. 20:20:19 agreed. 20:20:24 agreed, too 20:20:27 it's not noon here 20:20:36 wait, did you write it in Ruby on Rails? Because I hear it's an extremely productive environment... 20:20:53 it's in fact 21:20 here, so if you've taken the entire day to hack that up, it's rather a 12h session! 20:21:10 tic: that sound more reasonable! 20:21:21 _Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 20:21:28 if that's the case .. i must be hungry! 20:21:34 *drewc* goes for supper. 20:22:16 kidd [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:23:41 -!- intrados [n=intrados@rdrt-164-107-204-170.resnet.ohio-state.edu] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 20:24:21 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:25:16 nullwork_ [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:26:33 -!- antgreen [n=green@24.156.140.114] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:26:56 bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 20:29:26 drewc: happens sometimes. i budgeted the day to implement tons of dialog-boxes and other guis. spent it fighting with my gui toolkit :-/ 20:30:41 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:31:19 mandrake [n=mandrake@0x573a5cb9.ngnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:32:05 can anyone help me with a link for the sbcl source code? 20:32:30 so, heh. the code that I had budgeted a week for, I did in two sessions today... either I vastly overestimated it, or I'd already done most of the heavy thinking weeks ago (-: 20:32:33 can't remember now (: 20:33:03 gigamonkey: are you talking about Flash Gordon? is it usable? or something else? 20:33:06 sourceforge gives me a link which is blocking my connection 20:33:25 sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 20:33:33 mandrake: you should be able to choose another mirror... 20:33:45 antifuchs: it is blocking me instead 20:34:10 mandrake: alternatively, you can get a tar.gz snapshot of the last release tag from my git mirror: http://git.boinkor.net/gitweb/sbcl.git?a=snapshot;h=8ece99407b3f316f5d86eff841baad769b455fa0;sf=tgz 20:34:26 should be the same as what you can download from sf.net 20:34:46 ok 20:35:31 (I love this feature in gitweb) (: 20:35:41 at least your link is not blocking the download 20:36:09 well, good to hear (: 20:36:11 good luck with it 20:36:32 thnx ;) 20:38:06 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@DSL217-132-36-190.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:38:07 ehu: you are now our expert on the cl-net svn service :). 20:38:07 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:41:22 dabd [n=dabd@85.139.104.31] has joined #lisp 20:41:47 puchacz: I think that was one. There's also a cl-flash. I don't know really anything about those except that they exist in some form. 20:42:31 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-136.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:42:58 gigamonkey: cheers 20:43:44 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 20:47:24 [1]edon [n=edon@82.114.94.16] has joined #lisp 20:47:28 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:47:40 -!- [1]edon is now known as edon 20:51:56 -!- SpecAfk is now known as mrSpec 20:56:01 -!- elurin [n=user@88.224.44.54] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:56:12 elurin [n=user@88.224.44.54] has joined #lisp 20:56:48 who is asking about Gordon? yeah it works, but you have to know what you're doing 20:57:10 it has allot of unadvertised features too 20:57:29 puchacz: was asking. 20:57:32 but it's not a flash generator, more like marshaller 20:57:34 er puchacz, was asking. 20:57:41 bah, "puchaz was asking" 20:57:47 heh 20:58:19 was-askingp is undefined :( 20:58:23 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 20:58:27 wow I need to go back to SGML school 20:59:08 fusss: I am back. I don't know Flash yet, I know I need to learn it soon. 20:59:13 is the correct form for self-closing tags 20:59:33 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:53 fusss: so maybe I would choose something more user friendly and documented, and resort to CL to prepare its input files 20:59:58 that would be a mistake 21:00:22 adobe does a fine job of shrouding the generated flash format in mystic secrecy 21:00:38 it has been successful with me :-( 21:00:48 flash-maker, or whatever their tool is called, makes flash feel like a "complete solution development mathinggie" 21:01:02 it's much easier to read the file format and see what it really is for yourself :-) 21:01:41 flash is like a glorified tar archive with indices, which each file knows its "inode" number and can "go to" other files 21:02:05 fusss: actually fusss: cool. so, generate the Flash source (e.g. using CL), together with bitmaps and mp3, and swf it using something? 21:02:34 fusss: Why do you need to know what the byte-code looks like? 21:02:58 brill: because then "Flash" wont seem like a magic platform 21:03:17 I'm using Flex Builder every day - and you'll do fine just using that. 21:03:19 you will see it's just passing pointer to bit-blobs around and you can change those at run time 21:03:46 brill: flash platform is useless without flex builder 21:04:01 adobe put the meat of the platform in its tools that generate flash :-) 21:04:23 what (preferably open source) tools do I need? I heard Flash is Javascript + XML + binary resources, can I use Parenscript for it? 21:04:31 fusss: Yeah. But it's like learning Lisp and starting with assembler. 21:05:06 puchacz: if you want to make flash GUIs, you have no choice but adobe's tools 21:05:09 Adobe got an sdk you can download for free. 21:05:28 jso [n=user@67.130.170.131] has joined #lisp 21:05:35 puchacz: gordon supports flash 7, and doesn't do embedded clips 21:05:35 vasa [n=vasa@mm-152-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 21:05:58 You can compile to the flash player without using a cent. But it's a lot quicker to use a tool for development. 21:06:02 -!- user___ [n=user@p5492519F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:06:16 puchacz: if you want to do flash right, and you suck at drawing and artwork (like me :-) then your best choice is HaXe 21:06:19 I will start with a podcast (few screenshot, some sprites and narrated mp3). Then I have few more things to do, like an applet that is invocable from Javascript and gives access to sound io and system clipboard 21:07:11 my webapp-to-be is in Lisp and uses parenscript, can I reuse something here? 21:07:24 *fusss* will never go back to batch-compiled languages :-) no repl? no thanks! 21:07:27 Haxe lost traction some time ago. And gordon is out of the question if you're doing serious development. 21:08:04 i wouldn't recommend gordon, unless you're the original author, in which case i would ask you to improve it and change the license :-P 21:08:50 repl is nice, even for my parenscript/javascript, I have go-to-source and who-calls even for client-side parenscript functions using slime 21:09:10 I would love to see some serious Lisp tool for flex. I mean if clojure can be a java tool why can't we have a serious tool for flash bytecode? :-) 21:09:25 sure, just make a bunch of macros. 21:09:31 I was talkign about generating flash source (whatever it looks like) mainly because I haven't seen a single line of flash yet. 21:09:32 and/or a custom walker. 21:09:44 brill: welcome to the club 21:10:01 puchacz: gordon generates a flash binary. kazaaam! 21:10:13 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:10:23 fusss: Do you think that where would be an audience for a Gordon version 2? 21:10:33 "flash" is actually the binary format. the language most used to generate flash is actionscript. 21:10:45 Yeah Actionscript 3. 21:10:54 brill: at least 4 of us are writing their own flash generation tools :-) 21:11:07 fusss: is haXe like javascript/actionscript? 21:11:08 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 21:11:14 yes, I suck at drawing 21:11:29 fusss: Lisp to actionscript - or all the way to bytecode? 21:11:54 I want Lisp to actionscript and then a tool to generate the binaries 21:11:55 puchacz: HaXe is it's own programming language. it feels allot like a "real" language. it generates flash, php, or Neko bytecode 21:12:13 brill: CL straight to bytecode 21:12:14 what tool do I need to convert from actionscript to binary? 21:12:34 puchacz: mxlmc - the compiler from Adobe. 21:12:38 oudeis [n=oudeis@DSL217-132-36-190.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 21:12:38 more like a fasl loader in flash, so we can connect to it through an swank socket 21:12:40 CL to bytecode would be nice, but I would like to start today/tomorrow 21:12:57 gordon = cl -> flash compiler 21:13:45 fusss: was there a particular reason why you mentioned haXe? it sounds like I couldn't easily match it to CL 21:14:45 puchacz: just for the fact that it exists, and it's authors are FOSS friendly. you couldn't map it easily to CL and there isn't much interest in it here 21:15:16 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 21:15:21 drewc: great :-) 21:15:24 the people who made HaXe wrote a good flash compiler, and it was the only Free actionscript compiler for a long time 21:15:43 ok, closing haXe website. I am tempted to use parenscript and mxlmc 21:16:01 fusss: Yeah. Then actioscript 3 came along. 21:16:32 "Note: If you precompile a Flex SWF file, you can deploy it only on a server that is running a licensed copy of Flex." what? cannot I generate just a standalone swf applet like thingy? 21:16:42 drewc: though I still don't know where the 'connection refused' is coming from. 21:17:00 puchacz: Yes you can. No problem. 21:17:06 ok 21:17:08 drewc: does c-l.net have a firewall which does some attack detection and mitigation? 21:17:14 puchacz: let me be the first to tell you how actionscrip3 differs from flash. it requires type specifiers (they're optional in ecmascript) and parenscript will have to be hacked heavily. 21:17:27 *ehu* can't see the iptables rules 21:17:54 fusss: boo. then I am stuck 21:18:39 No, just farther from your goal than you want to be. You can always make forward progress. 21:18:44 puchacz: play with gordon, and feel free to ask me privately if you get stuck. 21:19:00 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb8a46.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:19:10 it's surprisingly functional, for useless stuff 21:19:16 puchacz: Just lean actionscript 3, mxml and use mxmlc. You can always use whatever tool you like. 21:19:39 at least it has good "button" support. you can make clickable things, and hot areas or whatever. 21:20:16 you can EASILY extend gordon to call ANY AS3 function or method :-) 21:20:41 fusss: Are you extending Gordon? 21:21:03 my heavily hacked version let's me instantiate any as class on the stack and fire up its member functions/methods 21:21:08 brill, fusss: ok, thanks :-) I am looking into these things now 21:21:35 brill: i was. but other people said they have something in store and their something wasn't under GPL. 21:21:50 fusss: Sounds like you're nearly there. 21:21:54 i was writing a Lisp GUI toolkit that targeted flash 21:22:06 fusss: What people are we talking about? 21:22:07 now i'm retargeting it for GTK 21:22:41 fusss: A flash gui for lisp would be seriously cool. 21:22:46 i wouldn't be the one to put Xach and ahaas under the spot, no sir, no me. 21:23:18 brill: there are many things to be answered tho. specially the numeric constants you send to flash. 21:23:57 fusss: You sound like there's an open source project going on here. Where can I sign in? :-) 21:24:11 I only have some rough code to decompile and recompile swf files. I don't have anything to convert Lisp code to Actionscript or byte-compiled SWF code. 21:24:14 you serious? 21:24:17 wanna fork gordon? 21:24:31 ahaas: gordon does that for us already 21:25:50 Look at it this way. A lisp to flash bytecode would have much of the rationale of clojure. 21:26:40 Lisp to a platform that is nearly everywhere today. 21:26:43 this is where it gets tricky. where do you want the "lisp" to be, on the browser in a flash applet? or on your development environment? 21:27:05 in the flash applet sounds scary, quite frankly 21:27:08 But does the Flash runtime have all the capabilities that the JVM has? 21:27:09 fusss: In the development environment. 21:27:10 Heh. Hosting languages on top of the JVM creates too many leaky abstractions as it is. Putting something on top of the ActionScript VM would be like driving your convertable into a car wash with the top down. 21:27:33 for a lot of apps a better solution might be serverside lisp, clientside flash with actionscript generated with parenscript or similar 21:27:33 chandler: Nice metaphor! 21:27:42 assuming you want flash in the first place, of course 21:27:43 so, a good thing? (It stops at least one convertible from destroying the planet) 21:28:09 Krystof: Assume for the sake of argument that it's a Tesla Roadster. 21:28:18 (I try to avoid it; flash UIs are at best a bit weird, and you can do most useful stuff with client-side javascript for the time being) 21:28:23 I don't even know what that means :-) 21:28:29 brill: nofusss@gmail.com; i'm gonna send you what i have after i clean it up. stay in touch. 21:28:39 *Krystof* does not drive and his family does not own a car 21:28:46 Krystof: It's essentially an electrified Lotus Elise. 21:28:46 fusss: Will do. 21:28:47 Krystof: all electric sports car. 21:28:53 chandler: ironically, if you count full production energy usage, those are probably worse than petrol cars 21:29:00 Krystof: electric car 21:29:11 such a small run, and such very big batteries 21:29:11 rsynnott: well, how much energy does vaporware use? :-) 21:29:23 rsynnott: unless you put enough PV on your home roof to charge it. 21:29:24 oh, thought they were available by now 21:29:29 aha 21:29:32 in any case, the irritating blog posts alone... 21:29:34 brill: feel free to drop me a line first, so i can get your e-mail as well :-) 21:29:51 gigamonkey: even then, energy costs for an effectively custom-made big lump of metal are very high 21:30:07 and you'd need a rather large roof :) 21:30:08 True enough. 21:30:49 it's more a demo than a bona fide attempt at planet-saving :) 21:30:55 rsynnott: yeah. I mention that because I heard a thing on the radio the other day about a solar panel salesman who got a call from a guy here in Silicon Valley saying, I have a solar system but I need another one installed. 21:30:57 fusss: Done. 21:31:03 (which is, sadly, pretty much the status quo for the moment) 21:31:16 The 2nd was for charging his soon-to-arrive Tesla. 21:31:28 ahaha 21:32:07 isn't silicon valley the sort of place you can manage on foot/public transport if you actually care that much, anyway? 21:32:17 puchacz: here is the canonical gordon example http://wiki.freaks-unidos.net/torta 21:32:28 rsynnott: Tesla is having a significant amount of trouble actually making them, but is boldly moving ahead with plans for two more models! That trips my vaporware detector right away. 21:32:29 rsynnott: hardly. 21:32:52 It's all sprawled out. 21:33:12 *gigamonkey* doesn't actually live down south so may not know what he's talking about. 21:33:28 yup, I saw it today. 21:33:34 looks good 21:33:36 gigamonkey: but, but, BART 21:33:56 *rsynnott* has possibly unrealistic utopian views of silicon valley 21:33:58 chandler: BART doesn't go very far south and doesn't help you get around when you're down there. 21:34:16 (lack of dependence on cars is important in utopian views for me; never gotten around to learning to drive :) ) 21:34:48 <_3b> i could put my not-very-useful-yet lisp->flash bytecode compiler somewhere, if there are other people who migh want to hack on it 21:35:10 _3b: I'd like to see it. 21:35:20 _3b: do it. will hack it. 21:35:22 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@DSL217-132-36-190.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:35:46 <_3b> ok, i'll try to get it back to a working state and put it up soon (probably at least a day or so though) 21:35:59 _3b: link to it from click.net/flash 21:35:59 fusss: I mailed you too, I really interested what you do with Flash. 21:36:24 puchacz: what WE do :-) your code and my beta-testing will take us a long way. 21:36:36 <_3b> fusss: not useful enough for publicity yet (and the code is too ugly anyway :) 21:36:54 alright then 21:36:55 fusss: if I produce something useful, why not ;-) 21:37:08 my example of "extended gordon" sent everyone covering their noses 21:37:34 brb, cigarette 21:39:31 what in god's name is an "extended gordon?" 21:39:52 we are dying to see, ivanst :-) 21:41:20 _3b: yes, please do so 21:42:07 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-61-213.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 21:42:13 -!- kidd [n=kidd@167.Red-79-147-12.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:43:20 finally: (write-line "TFYQA" (open "cspz" :direction :output :if-exists :supersede)) lets me write to a fifo hehe 21:45:01 mandrake: You might want to use WITH-OPEN-FILE instead, because you're opening files and never closing them now. 21:45:26 chandler: ok 21:46:01 chandler, but Lisp is garbage collected! 21:46:17 tic: It also has UNWIND-PROTECT for a reason! 21:46:48 Files aren't garbage; they're detritus. 21:47:25 But flies are. 21:47:37 A very small Hamming distance! 21:48:02 files are good for mapping large objects 21:48:40 (TIME FLIES) 21:48:41 Rather sucky, I think. Persistance is probably the most common problem they solve. 21:48:59 chandler, *drum-tsch* 21:49:39 (when (having fun) (time flies)) 21:50:08 flies is very quick - it's just reading a variable! 21:50:33 flies(time) :- fun. 21:50:34 or a symbol-macro 21:50:36 Fare: it may be a symbol macro 21:50:44 tic: necessary, though 21:51:06 rsynnott, flies(ant) :- bitey. ? :) 21:51:21 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:51:29 *tic* is making even less sense than usual. 21:51:31 Bed time, night guys! 21:52:16 flies(fruit) :- banana 21:52:27 antgreen [n=green@24.156.140.114] has joined #lisp 21:52:45 (like (time flies) 21:52:47 '->) 21:52:48 :/ 21:53:02 -!- jso [n=user@67.130.170.131] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:53:49  21:53:51 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:54:20 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:54:24 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@14.pool85-49-189.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 21:54:30 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has joined #lisp 21:54:50 fusss pasted "extended gordon example (calling "time" method)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70094 21:55:23 fusss, that is screaming for a domain-specific language. 21:55:27 jso [n=user@67.130.170.131] has joined #lisp 21:55:51 minion: chant 21:55:51 MORE PERHAPS 21:55:52 chandler: we will get there. just testing the function invocation trick. 21:56:30 gordon is effectively a stack VM for flash-bytecode written in Lisp 21:56:46 you push arguments on the stack, push the count, and call ANY flash built-in function 21:57:08 -!- antgreen [n=green@24.156.140.114] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:57:24 but very quickly you will learn that Adobe kept the GUI stuff in it's "maker" tools. so we will need to reimplement the entire GUI stuff in Lisp 21:58:23 Do their maker tools generate code that could be decompiled? 21:58:39 <_3b> whats does the button stuff do in that example? 21:58:41 I.e. do they draw GUI stuff with underlying graphical primitives? 21:58:54 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:59:14 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:59:23 gigamonkey: yes, they used the builtin vector primitives to draw 22:00:05 _3b: in that example, the 'button' is just good for changing the pointer into a finger. gives the false illusion of it actually doing something :-P 22:00:19 <_3b> ah, ok :) 22:00:25 fusss: What GUI stuff are you talking about? 22:00:39 ahaas: the flash guis you see in webpages, flex stuff 22:00:53 The Flex stuff is all external Actionscript libraries. 22:01:38 fusss pasted "flash builin functions, up to version 9" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70095 22:02:01 ahaas: yes, that's what i said. it's NOT in flashplayer 22:02:29 You said that it's all in "maker tools." 22:02:58 ahaas: it's in the Flex SDK 22:02:59 fusss: it seems the question is are they libraries that you could potentially call or are they just bits of code generated by Adobe proprietary tools? 22:03:04 <_3b> seems like the flash player libs have a lot more than that 22:04:02 _3b: this is action-script core. the function call-method is where magic happens. you can instantiate action script classes on the stack and invoke their methods. 22:04:40 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:04:43 the AVM2 API rather (it's assembly instructions) 22:04:58 gordon knows a handful of those, and it's straightforward to add the rest 22:05:21 <_3b> not sure that lists maps 1-1 to opcodes either, probably closer to that though 22:05:41 drewc: would it be possible to see some reason in the logs for a rejection by c-l.net on the svnserve hosting port (3690)? 22:05:55 i wrote this "tutorial" but never bothered to publish it 22:06:30 fusss pasted "my own documentation for hacking on gordon" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/70096 22:06:38 fusss: Any tutorial would be nice. 22:07:32 thanks a lot guys, I am calling it a day for now, but this conversation encouraged me enough to look into the stuff. Flash does not look that alien now for me :-) 22:08:27 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 22:09:07 good luck puchacz. will update you when i have something. right now my gtk stuff takes priority :-P 22:09:18 I would love to do my Flash work by coding in Lisp, but I don't think that will ever happen. 22:09:51 ehu: yeah... i can have a look. what am i looking for? 22:10:38 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@14.pool85-49-189.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:10:45 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:11:09 the same server requesting opening connections time and time again. I don't think you'll be able to see which repository it's asking for. Possibly this server has the ohloh domain ohloh.com 22:11:31 how i can test eof of stream? 22:12:05 vasa: read-line takes other arguments, one which is the result to return when stream is eof 22:13:03 thx 22:14:30 drewc: I think the tcpd daemon may be logging requests to the syslog facility 22:14:48 drewc: but I can't see if it's denying any incoming requests. 22:15:12 ehu: in the daemon.log there are no rejected requests 22:15:32 hmm. I assume c-l.net has a firewall? 22:15:38 ehu: svnserve[17406]: connect from 207.115.86.114 22:15:50 (over and over again ... i assume that's you) 22:16:13 ehu: I'm not sure that we have any relevant firewall rules. 22:16:48 drewc: no, I'm 82.170.33.173 22:18:01 ehu: hrm 22:18:08 drewc: that IP is botswana.ohloh.net 22:18:15 holymoly [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:18 Name: botswana.ohloh.net 22:18:40 yup. did this just start, or has it been going on for days? 22:23:20 fusss: Doesn't FlexBuilder just output xml files? You wouldn't need to reimplement that in Lisp, right? 22:24:14 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:24:15 ahaas: not xml, no 22:24:46 to be honest, i shelved my flash hacking til i can prototype my gui api in something less primitive 22:25:12 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 22:25:24 i have a good chunk of DUIM in lisp, and i need to finish the first backend, gtk, then start retargetting to other stuff 22:25:35 gtk/capi/flash/clim, etc. 22:26:09 fusss: I'm sure it outputs a swf, too, to include the library files, but I thought the whole point of the builder was a WYSIWYG to create the xml config file that Flex uses. 22:26:31 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:26:40 *ahaas* has never used FlexBuilder, but uses the Flex compiler daily. 22:27:06 glade spits out xml too, but all that is combined with the C library to create standalone. flex flash applets are statically compiled with the gui stuff. 22:27:08 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:45 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:27:51 clim as a backend for duim? odd. 22:29:56 gilberth: no, duim will have a clim backend :-P 22:30:29 why duim? and did you port the existing dylan code? 22:30:52 fusss: Ah, I was thinking about how the flex compiler can take an xml config file to build the swf, but I guess FlexBuilder can skip that step. 22:31:10 haven't touched any existing code, gilberth. clean rewrite i guess. 22:31:39 lol, i never use flash 22:31:49 why duim? dunno, it's the lispiest of the easy-to-reimplement guis 22:32:15 ehu: at least a couple days now 22:32:38 weird. 22:32:59 because it's only started to correctly sync just after my email of today. 22:33:07 only for commercials, but see you some other time 22:33:12 -!- mandrake [n=mandrake@0x573a5cb9.ngnqu1.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 22:33:45 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:33:58 fusss: Easy perhaps, because all the interesting parts are left out. I still prefer the "full" CLIM. 22:34:26 What parts in particular? 22:34:33 gilberth: i'm sure clim is much better, but i couldn't learn the bloody thing. 22:34:51 Is #lisp still grumpy? 22:35:15 would you like it to be grumpier instead? 22:35:21 No. 22:35:39 ivanst_ [i=ivans@78-1-169-137.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 22:35:47 those are your choices :P 22:36:05 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-152-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:36:45 tcr: Output recording to start with, and all the nice stuff build upon that. 22:37:20 #lisp is the grumpy guru. 22:37:23 I don't know Clim; what's output recording again? 22:37:33 the guru of grump 22:37:40 lol 22:37:46 gilberth: Are presentations build upon that? 22:38:11 tcr: Output recoding is _not_ writing repaint handlers; the system remembers the graphics you painted and cares for repaint. 22:38:50 How does it do that? 22:39:59 tcr: yes. It's basically that you can tell the system "Hey, I am gonna to draw a FROB, will you remember, please." Then for instance there can be commands defined on FROBs, when you mouse over said output, it'll become active and the system offers you to invoke one of those commands on the FROB. A bit like hyperlinks only way more diverse. 22:40:02 Well, there's only two possibilities: Either it records the drawing operations so that it can re-do them, or it records the code performing the drawing operations in a lambda and reinvokes it as needed. 22:40:34 Actually it does both at times. 22:40:47 That's rather what I thought. 22:41:24 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:41:41 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.177.225] has quit [] 22:41:58 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 22:42:02 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:42:25 My experience with McCLIM has been mixed. I think I like it in abstract, but not as implemented. 22:42:54 nyef: agreed 22:43:13 and the api could've been a little simpler 22:44:22 fusss: Well I consider DUIM a subset of CLIM, so stear clear of the fancy and you should fine. ;) 22:44:59 gilberth: yeah, DUIM had me at "Scott McKay" :-) 22:45:32 have you seen the draf for the DUIM standard? reads like a love-letter to any wanna be gui developer 22:46:06 fusss: DUIM focuses on gadgets and layout panes, something on which mcclim is very strong. So it's a kind of duplicate effort. 22:46:15 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-177-125.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:46:33 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-32-174.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 22:47:07 not a duplicate effort. i don't intend to draw a single sheet/gadget myself. just call out to the OS 22:47:34 fusss: Which is fine and something clim surely is meant to do. 22:47:45 my replicate the class heirarchy in CLOS, ultimately, methods will call out to FFI 22:48:15 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:48:23 all you will ever need in a gui, really 22:48:48 fusss: I miss streams in there. 22:49:07 Yeah, stream panes are awesome when they fit what needs doing. 22:49:30 Examples? 22:49:32 as an ignoramus who has never used stream panes, enlighten me 22:49:50 -!- ivanst [i=ivans@93-138-93-112.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:50:25 tcr: The main pane in pretzil is a stream pane. 22:50:29 I think they're awesome to the programmer for debugging purposes 22:50:38 Ah, and the status bar pane. 22:51:12 i have mcclim at home, but, maybe there is a better backend for it than clx? 22:51:34 Here is a real world example: We have an application, which we ship to our customers, that essentially receives and records messages from elevator emergency phones. You handle different kind of objects like an object [that is called that way, it's a single installation site], individual elevator cars, different messages and so. When a call comes in all the messages and the object number are presented on a stream. ... 22:51:44 -!- Jacob_H__ [n=jacob@92.0.157.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:52:43 why does that have to be part of my gui toolkit? a message queue? 22:52:52 The object number, that represents an installation site for instance is a presentation, you can click on it an perform a couple of operations on that, like call back, or see the log of previous messages, edit the data associated with that (like address, customer and so on). It's pretty convienient to just say (define-foo-command (com-foo :name t :menu t) ((x 'objekt)) ...) and have it available. 22:52:57 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-200-2-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 22:53:16 I guess so. 22:53:44 That is what is output on the stream isn't just pixels, but the system just knowns what kind of entities are there and what operations are useful. 22:54:13 In a traditional GUI you have to write all the code by yourself. 22:54:17 -!- NuMaStresa [n=orion@unaffiliated/numastresa] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:54:46 -!- jso [n=user@67.130.170.131] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:54:49 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 22:55:29 Does the Smalltalk world have presentations? In my head, I see them as a kind of sending gui-related messages to objects. 22:55:50 let's do the firefox test. will i be able to replicate the GUI of a web browser in clim? text entry for address, menu bar, tool bar, toolbar buttons with colored icons and labels, tabs, etc.? 22:56:08 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:56:09 minion: clozure 22:56:10 clozure: Clozure is the new name for OpenMCL. http://www.cliki.net/clozure 22:56:14 minion: closure 22:56:15 closure: Closure is a free Web browser written completely in Common Lisp. http://www.cliki.net/closure 22:56:19 fusss: sure, why not? 22:56:19 dah 22:56:26 AIUI, the Smalltalk world traditionally had something called "MVC" which was like presentations, only screwier. 22:56:30 closure is a bad example of the kind of gui fusss wants. 22:56:30 i really walked into that one 22:57:03 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.157.186] has joined #lisp 22:57:04 borism [n=boris@195-50-200-2-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 22:57:23 But yeah, it's possible. Just lose the interactor pane that so many apps seem to have. 22:57:33 nyef: I have absolutely no experience in gui whatsoever (hence my questions were all asked out of naive curiosity); I never grokked MVC. 22:57:57 Yeah, I never understood the point of splitting the view from the controller myself. 22:58:10 For the sake of it: http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/cruft/hmm-7.png 22:58:52 And no, its not mozilla, but mcclim. There are other hmm-$N.png images, it was playing with the look of things. 22:58:57 gilberth: is that last one clim? 22:59:02 http://mcclim.cliki.net/Screenshot 22:59:31 fusss: It's all clim, I just cloned a familar dialog to be able to play with different looks, while i was implementing the gadgets. 22:59:57 i'm surprised 23:00:24 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:01:39 hmmm 23:01:49 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:01:57 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 23:02:10 i wonder my the two commercial lisps have their own gui toolkits in addition to clim then? 23:02:23 i played with capi and found it enjoyable 23:02:28 to lock in customers? 23:02:51 the DUIM draft spec says the developers looked at "Java, CAPI, MFC and Fresco" 23:03:01 or perhaps to provide something (much) easier to use ? 23:03:27 i liked the fact that DUIM came as a result of a study of gui that exist today. 23:03:41 well, if you want the duim in clim, it is just as easy to use. 23:04:08 gilberth: yeah, but i have the audacity to dream of a DUIM targeting flash :-) 23:04:33 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:04:41 well, i could always implement a duim backend for mcclim ;-) 23:05:20 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:32 haha 23:06:14 btw, if clojure had a better clos, i would considering writing a java (swing it these days, right?) backend of mcclim and port closure to clojure. 23:07:32 gilberth: does it have _any_ CLOS? 23:07:39 *fusss* is considering uninstalling the jvm plugin 23:07:42 sellout: closette 23:08:00 from the book? 23:08:20 fusss: look that way to me, as i glanced over it. 23:08:22 gilberth: abcl has that too, but it's considered 'not much of a clos, not enough mop' 23:08:49 *gilberth* wonders how hard it would be to port PCL over to those implementations. 23:08:52 ehu: yup, corman has it too. the rest of the lisps i looked at were PCL 23:09:03 hey gilberh, long time no see 23:09:23 manuel_: hi there! 23:09:31 how's it going? 23:09:34 still in hamburg? 23:09:38 gilberth: I understand the version of PCL in SBCL is (now) very much tied in with SBCL internals 23:09:40 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:10:15 manuel_: I have a company to run, remember? Where are you these days? 23:10:32 ehu: There was once a version of PCL included CLISP that worked reasable well. 23:10:58 Apparently the original PCL was supposed to be reasonably portable, with just a few implementation-dependent hacks such as direct manipulation of closures. 23:11:56 hmm. sounds nice. however, where to find this ancient PCL? 23:13:02 sysfault [i=exalted@p3m/member/sysfault] has joined #lisp 23:13:07 manuel_: anyhow, wann bist du in HH? 23:13:18 EWINDOW :) 23:13:49 manuel_: Naja, rational war es fuer uns auch das beste; Nur muss das Herz das erstmal kappieren. 23:14:00 fenster gilberth, fenster 23:14:06 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@40.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 23:14:12 oh. 23:14:14 shit. 23:14:17 :} 23:15:12 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.193.182] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:18:24 ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has joined #lisp 23:19:41 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279776357.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:19:52 -!- a-s` [n=user@92.80.103.234] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:52 nyef: actually, I think even the closure hacking was parameterised through LAP. 23:20:42 ehu: old PCL is here ftp://ftp.parc.xerox.com/pub/pcl/old/ 23:22:11 up the directory also you can find TinyCLOS and Closette :-) 23:22:37 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has quit [] 23:23:22 -!- ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has left #lisp 23:25:42 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:28:37 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has left #lisp 23:29:14 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:56 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:31:42 nik11 [n=Wmadjge@193.253.141.89] has joined #lisp 23:31:52 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:32:03 VityokOr` [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 23:34:59 eaumontab [n=abeaumon@5.pool85-49-163.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 23:35:01 basilisk [n=anuj@210.212.55.3] has joined #lisp 23:35:01 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:35:59 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:36:14 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:40:11 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.157.186] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:43:29 -!- H4ns [n=hans@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:44:37 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4ca806d3d60f16d1] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 23:45:45 -!- denatus [n=denatus@084202106139.customer.alfanett.no] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:46:17 -!- beaumonta [n=abeaumon@14.pool85-49-189.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:48:21 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:48:43 Rugxulo [n=chatzill@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:38 Rugxulo_ [n=chatzill@adsl-065-013-115-246.sip.mob.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 23:52:48 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 23:54:50 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:59:36 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"]