00:00:26 so they added a fake ppp adapter 00:00:27 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:00:35 Soulman__ [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 00:00:38 Where can I find a simple example of overriding slot read/write methods (perhaps using MOP)? I want the effect "on read to an slot, read the value and run it through this function before giving it out" and the same for write. 00:01:30 (defmethod foo ((bar bar)) (modify-the-foo (slot-value bar 'foo))) ; Like that? 00:01:32 meingbg: define your own reader? 00:01:50 meingbg: Google code search for "slot-value-using-class"? 00:01:51 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@30.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:01:55 rpg: as long as the class you're specializing on inherits from CL:STREAM, I think you're in compliance with the standard 00:01:59 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 00:01:59 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 00:02:40 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@30.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 00:02:52 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:02:57 Riastradh: well yeah, except I kind of want it for every slot in a number of classes, just thought there was a way to do it in 5 lines instead of 20 if you have 20 slots... 00:03:46 meingbg: http://www.bitbucket.org/S11001001/weblocks-dev/src/tip/src/widgets/widget/widget-mop.lisp 00:03:58 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-088-067-001-056.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:04:03 (defun wrap (generic slot wrapper) (defmethod generic ((instance class)) (funcall wrapper (slot-value instance slot)))) 00:04:29 meingbg: and widget.lisp in same dir 00:04:33 nyef: not all uuid's are created with access to native MAC info 00:04:34 ...well, that doesn't quite work. 00:04:34 meingbg: lotsa ways, learn about effective initargs, effective initform, around methods for accessor methods, around methods for initializers, etc. 00:05:03 (You'll need a macro in Common Lisp to use DEFMETHOD that way.) 00:05:51 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:06:02 *xjrn* was stuck in a scrollback didn't see the later comment about M$ 00:06:05 fusss: are 'around' methods defined on a per-slot basis? 00:07:31 uuid's still are probably the most practical means of msgid's and unqiue tagging for a number of reasons. the strain on address space comes when you create multiple uuid's per second or concurrently since they are partly a time-encoding with MAC info 00:07:35 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-94-251.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:07:53 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:08:02 (defclass foo () ((slot1 :accessor slot1-value)) ... (defmethod slot1-value :around ((obj foo)) (frob (slot-value 'slot1 objt)) (call-next-method)))? 00:08:13 fe[nl]ix: Thank you very much for all the help. I must go off now, but I will probably finish tonight. Thanks to you and the others. 00:12:53 yep, confirmed 00:13:47 How can I search for a commit in gitweb if I know the date of the commit? 00:15:42 fusss pasted "meingbg" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69665 00:16:13 then all the classes whose slot you wanna change inherit from that mixin 00:17:04 tcr: I don't think you can 00:17:25 tcr: git log can do revs like "master@{2008-08-10 10:00}", but I don't think gitweb can 00:18:21 can anybody tell me what's the least painful way to convert the headers of large C library to CFFI? 00:18:34 i just can't get what "grovel" does 00:18:36 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p3209-ipbf1802marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 00:18:48 antifuchs: I get bad object for that one 00:19:15 -!- ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has left #lisp 00:19:38 nyef: slot-value-using-class looks like something, now I got reading to do. 00:19:42 thx alot, all! 00:19:45 tcr: odd 00:19:59 tcr: probalby depends on your git version. I'm on 1.5.6 here, IIRC 00:21:00 antifuchs: Could you paste me the commit log for 2002-05-14? (It should affect src/code/reader.lisp) 00:21:10 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:22:27 envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.100] has joined #lisp 00:23:06 antifuchs pasted "for tcr: commit log (master@ that time didn't work for me either)" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69666 00:24:47 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 00:25:19 erflynn [n=e@65-183-142-159-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net] has joined #lisp 00:26:23 clhs: 00:26:24 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for . 00:26:30 clhs: pass by reference 00:26:46 fusss: thanks for the paste, it helped. 00:27:47 erflynn: Check wikipedia for evaluation strategy 00:28:02 antifuchs: thanks 00:28:03 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:28:17 tcr: welcome (: 00:28:34 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:28:43 tcr: i see... 00:28:58 np meingbg 00:30:25 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:30:31 tcr: ok i want to pass in a global variable to a defun and have it change the value. is this even possible? 00:30:51 photon [n=MinusZer@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 00:31:34 erflynn: No. 00:31:36 erflynn: no, not like that. 00:31:46 -!- md3 [n=user@85-135-174-17.adsl.slovanet.sk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:32:19 what would you do 00:32:27 erflynn: There are a few options. If it is a global variable, you can pass the name of the variable and use (setf (symbol-variable variable-name) ...) 00:33:17 You can make the global variable always have a value which can be mutated, and just mutate its value. 00:33:29 erflynn: my guess is that you don't really need to do that to achieve your goal, but the patterns of your past experience want you to do that 00:33:38 Or, you can express what you're trying to do in a different fashion. 00:33:53 For instance, you could have the function accept the old value and return the new value. 00:34:05 attila_lendvai: sounds vaguely mystical 00:34:51 in the broader context, what i want to do is create a counting semaphore. there is an integer, and "wait" and "signal" operations. the wait simply decrements the semaphore, the signal op increments it. if i can figure out how to do this in the LISP-way, then i take it further. 00:35:05 "All of this has happened before. All of this will happen again." 00:35:09 shorter? don't use global variables! :) 00:35:13 rsynnott: Only insofar as abstract concepts having desire, I think. 00:35:30 I was thinking I can use a closure... 00:35:43 chandler: Information Society, Seek 200? 00:35:55 (Or was it 300? I forget...) 00:35:59 Hm? 00:36:13 *attila_lendvai* goes to bed 00:36:15 It's BSG. 00:36:30 chandler: what do you think of this? 00:36:31 Probably sampled by Information Society, then. 00:36:39 Probably. 00:36:54 erflynn: Global variables are special, aka dynamic, which means they aren't captured by closures. 00:38:03 chandler: ok, right. 00:38:11 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279403734.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:38:16 chandler: so what you would you recommend for implementing a semaphore? 00:38:26 i am a lisp newbie 00:41:14 erflynn: about a thousand different things. explore the language and you could answer that question yourself the second way 00:41:33 erflynn: by semaphore, you mean "recursive mutex"? I would recommend using what your Lisp implementation provides, or a portability wrapper if you need it. 00:41:55 -!- photon [n=MinusZer@unaffiliated/photon] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:42:04 a clean way might be to close over the accessors of your semaphore with LET and binding a lexical variable that way 00:42:54 chandler: assume we're not dealing with any OS issues, it's just a simulation 00:43:20 konr [n=user@201.82.228.185] has joined #lisp 00:43:25 erflynn: I would make it a structure or class and mutate it. 00:43:43 what is a type-safe operation? 00:43:52 -!- bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 00:44:21 konr: That question is rather vague. 00:44:29 Is there a specific context you're asking it in? 00:44:55 chandler: ok. by structure do you mean list, or is there a way to define a "structure"? 00:45:05 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 00:45:32 -!- jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:45:47 erflynn: defstruct 00:45:47 clhs defstruct 00:45:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defstr.htm 00:45:50 jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 00:46:39 Am I missing something? Does (setf (foo quux) (push x (foo quux)) something different than a simple (push x (foo quux)) ? 00:46:54 chandler: I'm checking the K-machine documentation. It says its user operations are fully type-safe... I wonder what that means 00:47:42 static typesystem? like in haskell? 00:48:38 -!- booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:48:42 <_3b> random google hit says it means you can't turn off safety 00:49:22 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 00:50:44 mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:50:57 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.90.61] has joined #lisp 00:51:16 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 00:52:18 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Client Quit] 00:52:38 lisp data is tagged in memory (means first n bits of a datum will indicate what it is), so if user will try to perform an unappropriate operation on the datum it will be detected in runtime 00:53:56 When you are reading someone else's code, how do you determine the types of a function's arguments? 00:54:31 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 00:54:51 by performing dataflow analysis in memory :) 00:55:25 oudeis: does standard require tagged memory? 00:55:40 oudeis: That's what I figured. Thanks for confirming. 00:55:49 tcr: nope, people keep confusing push for nconc. i know i did. 00:56:38 stassats`: i don't know about the standard, but it is a standard implementation technique, all lisp systems use it 00:57:06 paul graham says in onlisp to not trust destructive operations to actually be destructive. they might be side-effecting a fresh copy. 00:57:11 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:57:34 -!- Hun [n=Hun@p50993726.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:57:47 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:57:48 fusss: push isn't destructive 00:58:11 UnwashedMeme1 [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 00:58:21 stassats`: That depends on what you consider destructive. 00:58:31 stassats`: it's equivalent to using setf. 00:58:45 fusss_ [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:58:54 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:58:58 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 00:59:02 from clhs: The effect of (push item place) is equivalent to (setf place (cons item place)) 00:59:02 00:59:08 yes, and it doesn't modify arguments 00:59:08 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:59:15 it does. 00:59:53 modifies place 01:00:20 sykopomp: i know, i used to mistake nconc for push(new) 01:01:02 push is destructive 01:01:31 per clhs's definition 01:02:13 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279403734.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:02:24 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279403734.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:05:03 -!- erflynn [n=e@65-183-142-159-dhcp.burlingtontelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:05:52 i was answer tcr who was wondering if anybody confused the two form. i did. not anymore though :-) 01:07:34 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-63-18.netcologne.de] has quit [] 01:07:35 excuse the bad grammar, been up 40 hours .. again 01:07:39 zzZZ time! 01:07:41 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.17/2008082909]"] 01:07:49 erflynn [n=e@ip093002.uvm.edu] has joined #lisp 01:09:37 -!- xreyes_ [n=xreyes@8.84-48-175.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:10:51 ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 01:13:07 -!- UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:13:07 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:13:31 Soulman [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 01:13:51 ryepup1 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 01:14:23 tcr: (setf (foo x) (push y (foo x))) may double-evaluate the place-form for (foo x) where the simple push would only do so once 01:14:43 -!- ryepup_away [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:14:54 clhs get-setf-expansion 01:14:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get_se.htm 01:15:13 stassats`: The standard mentions neither tagged memory nor garbage collection. However, a number of standard operations would be rather difficult to implement without tagged data of some sort, and similar logic applies to storage management techniques such as automatic garbage collection. 01:15:47 Soulman__ [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 01:15:47 Don't forget DEFINE-MODIFY-MACRO! 01:15:55 -!- Soulman [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:17:31 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:25:34 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:26:10 dbalcer [n=dbalcer@host72-31-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 01:27:13 sctb [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 01:27:35 ryepup2 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 01:30:26 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 01:30:52 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279442362.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 01:33:38 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:36:07 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48] has left #lisp 01:37:42 ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:14 ths_ [n=ths@X7e30.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:41:45 -!- trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:43:19 -!- ryepup1 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:45:09 K-machine is sexy <3 01:45:58 Balooga: hey 01:46:10 -!- dbalcer [n=dbalcer@host72-31-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 01:47:13 dbalcer [n=dbalcer@host72-31-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 01:47:17 At one point I briefly considered writing a K-machine emulator, but... I'm not sure there's a real point. 01:47:33 not without something to run on it, at any rate 01:48:07 Yeah. If they'd finished up the full software environment, or even most of it, it'd be a different story. 01:48:58 *hefner* wonders if the 3600 emulator made any progress 01:49:11 ... VLEE? 01:49:30 ISTR someone else working on one, but don't remember hearing much about it. 01:49:34 I'm surprised there isn't more interest in the CADR emulator. That actually works reasonably well. 01:49:59 hmm, what is the simplest way to iterate odd integers from 1 to n? 01:50:17 myrkraverk: (loop for i from 1 below n by 2 ...) ? 01:50:29 nyef, maybe ;) 01:50:36 Or maybe to n instead of below n? Something like that. 01:50:38 below or to? 01:50:42 yeah. 01:51:09 stopping at or below n is not too important right now 01:51:31 For extra credit, prove that all integers are odd. 01:51:40 -!- jlf` [n=user@209.204.171.109] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:52:22 nyef: I can disprove that very easily by deriving a contradiction. You see, Alexander the Great had an infinite number of arms... 01:53:25 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:55:19 -!- ryepup2 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:22 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:56:55 I have made (defmethod slot-value-using-class...) for a particular class, but it's not called when I access slots. I read somewhere I'm supposed to set :optimize-slot-access nil when doing defclass, however clisp gives me "invalid option". Where am I failing? 01:57:07 -!- weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:57:08 -!- sctb [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 01:57:59 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 01:58:30 -!- ths [n=ths@X4d78.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:58:48 Isn't :optimize-slot-access nil a lispworks thing, not clisp? 01:59:47 pinterface: ouch, you might be right. 01:59:52 erm, wasn't there a way to make a bot refer to hyperdocs? 01:59:56 I'd like to look at format 02:00:07 clhs format 02:00:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_format.htm 02:00:38 http://l1sp.org/cl/format also! 02:01:06 pinterface: Do you know if slot-value-using-class is supposed to work under clisp 02:01:23 ? 02:01:35 thanks 02:02:39 ryepup1 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 02:02:43 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 02:02:55 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 02:03:29 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:03:35 meingbg: According to the docs, yes. http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/mop-slot-access.html#slot-value-UC 02:04:13 (Though the last argument is a slot metaobject, not the slot name.) 02:04:36 pinterface: OK, thanks 02:05:32 You might want to look at closer-to-mop for more portable mop usage. http://common-lisp.net/project/closer/closer-mop.html 02:06:15 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:06:18 ryepup2 [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has joined #lisp 02:06:24 drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 02:06:58 -!- drdo [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:07:09 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 02:10:35 c|mell [n=cmell@61.121.210.70] has joined #lisp 02:11:31 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Close enough. I'm going to bed. 02:40:25 G'night all. 02:40:42 hm? 02:40:44 bpt [n=bpt@rrcs-70-63-155-2.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:42:30 dalton [n=id@201-1-112-251.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 02:42:41 -!- timchen1` is now known as nasloc__ 02:45:07 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-020b8c5e8c2cfbcc] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:49:14 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:19 tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has joined #lisp 02:52:14 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:54:29 dbalcer [n=dbalcer@host72-31-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 02:54:44 Spune [n=Spune@c-69-137-224-211.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:49 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:59:59 consolers [i=citation@59.92.92.167] has joined #lisp 03:00:04 -!- consolers [i=citation@59.92.92.167] has left #lisp 03:04:20 -!- dbalcer [n=dbalcer@host72-31-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 03:06:59 pjm [n=Patrick@ool-435665cf.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 03:07:28 -!- pjm is now known as Guest40911 03:07:43 -!- Guest40911 is now known as kassidy 03:18:18 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-105-4-98.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 03:19:37 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 03:20:28 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 03:22:02 -!- kassidy [n=Patrick@ool-435665cf.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 03:23:37 dbalcer [n=dbalcer@host72-31-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 03:24:46 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:24:55 doh, just missed nyef. 03:24:56 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 03:25:14 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:25:51 -!- mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:25:58 mqt [i=tran@monaco.nirv.net] has joined #lisp 03:26:49 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@217.194.205.196] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 03:29:25 -!- dbalcer [n=dbalcer@host72-31-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 03:29:48 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 03:35:27 Good morning. 03:35:55 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:40:27 -!- erflynn [n=e@ip093002.uvm.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:40:54 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:41:07 duck1123 [i=duck@adsl-75-46-46-243.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:44:26 drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 03:44:54 -!- drdo` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:46:05 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:47:14 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:47:21 cky [n=cky@203-211-93-118.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:47:24 -!- dublpaws [n=none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:47:31 dublpaws [n=none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 03:48:33 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:50:36 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 03:51:33 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-b9e5b3e900a55c88] has joined #lisp 03:54:33 bighous1 [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 03:58:55 tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 03:59:20 i have the following problem : i need a structure without repetition (a map or a set) holding unordered pairs... any idea how i might achieve this ? 03:59:44 -!- tiesje` [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Client Quit] 03:59:50 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:00:44 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:00:52 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:00:53 bighous1: That's not enough information to give a precise answer, because it will depend on frequency of use, access patterns etc. 04:00:59 Drakej [n=fred@216-67-85-176-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:02 bighous1: That said, you can just use a list. 04:01:24 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 04:02:11 Or a hash table, perhaps? 04:02:12 drake1 [n=drakej@208.79.15.100] has joined #lisp 04:02:33 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-18-217.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:02:40 -!- dublpaws [n=none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:02:41 cbrannon: Like I said, it depends... A hash table becomes interesting for large sets, yes. 04:02:43 dublpaws [n=none@209-20-72-61.slicehost.net] has joined #lisp 04:03:05 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:03:23 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:03:43 cbrannon: But it is restricted to things that can be compared with one of the four equality tests, and we weren't told the form of the pairs. 04:04:26 in searching for '(x y), i'd like some improvement over testing for every '(y x). i thought some sort of nifty hash function over pairs might help 04:06:17 bighous1: write a test function that returns true for both cases. 04:06:47 bighous1: It's just an OR. 04:07:22 jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:28 beach: of course i thought of that, i just wondered if there was a better way. ty anyways for your time 04:07:39 ywlcm 04:08:01 *yawn* 04:08:29 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:08:39 -!- bighous1 is now known as bighouse 04:08:39 hi, beach. 04:08:47 hello tic 04:10:06 -!- sbok [n=kobs@unaffiliated/kobs] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:10:17 sbok [n=kobs@you.cant.haxit.org] has joined #lisp 04:11:59 -!- drake1 [n=drakej@208.79.15.100] has quit [Client Quit] 04:18:25 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:20:49 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 04:21:23 jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has joined #lisp 04:21:36 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:22:10 keram [n=oof@cpe-76-87-179-96.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:22:10 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@30.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:22:35 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092414]"] 04:22:43 -!- cbrannon [n=user@ip68-12-115-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:23:11 -!- Drakej [n=fred@216-67-85-176-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:24:39 What's new? 04:25:03 Me? Lecture at 8, need to leave before 7, haven't finished preparations. 04:25:46 Also, I was inspired by what hefner said yesterday, so I am looking into the possibility of using CL-Vectors to create a frame-buffer backend for McCLIM. 04:26:50 lecture: congrats ;) mcclim: doesn't have a fb backend? how does it draw right now? clx? 04:27:10 tic: CLX, or GTKairo 04:27:12 dangerpl [n=dangerpl@adsl-75-34-40-232.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:27:42 beach, I smell a window system! 04:27:43 tic: There was an OpenGL backend, but I think it is not working. 04:27:50 tic: how so? 04:28:07 Drakej [n=fred@216-67-85-176-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:09 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:28:16 beach, if you make it possible to draw on a framebuffer, you make it easier to use McCLIM X-less 04:28:46 (eventually leading to Lisp all the way down. or was that perhaps not the intention?) 04:28:48 _Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:32 tic: Sort of. One plan would be to take the framebuffer code and move it to CLXS one day. 04:30:15 tic: either way, it is interesting to be able to choose where to divide the chores between McCLIM and the display server. 04:30:17 beach, map X drawing primitives onto CL-Vector? 04:30:23 beach, indeed. 04:30:41 tic: no, map McCLIM drawing primitives to CL-Vectors. 04:31:41 beach, I meant for the moving of the framebuffer code to CLXS, i.e. X draw line -> cl-vector draw line -> framebuffer, instead of the other way around. Or maybe I misunderstand how CL-Vectors work? 04:32:20 tic: yes, something like that. 04:32:42 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:33:21 tic: Another possibility would be to implement the render extension as CL-Vectors operations. 04:33:40 tic: Ultimately, I would like to have all these possibilities. 04:34:41 beach, *nod* directfb has accel. drawing primitives, too. 04:35:26 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:00 Regardless: interesting, indeed! 04:36:39 beach, probably a bit too early, but what do you think -- if at all -- on the eventual SICL backend? 04:37:08 Not sure what you are asking, sorry? 04:37:44 beach, the underlying operating system for sicl. If you're indeed aspiring to make a LispOS of it in the end. Maybe I'm mistaken? 04:38:13 -!- dangerpl [n=dangerpl@adsl-75-34-40-232.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 04:38:19 tic: No, you are right. But what would be a "SICL backend"? 04:39:18 tic: SICL would probably have something like Movitz at the bottom. 04:39:25 beach, the operating system. :) I see SICL as the "frontend" (i.e. user space), and the OS as whatever support structures required to get the Lisp running. That's the mental image I have. 04:39:28 Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 04:39:37 beach, right, so have you looked at other projects than Movitz? 04:39:45 -!- replor_ [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:40:18 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@30.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 04:40:31 tic: Yes, EROS, but only for persistence. I am now convinced that they are solving the wrong problem. 04:41:45 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 04:42:05 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:43:07 Doesn't seem to have been updated for a while. 04:44:04 tic: Right, they ran out of money, so they had to move into a different area, namely formal verification of OSes. 04:44:54 beach, sounds tricky. even formal verification of very small apps is tedious. 04:45:25 chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:39 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 04:45:39 tic: but you can get funding for it. 04:45:46 beach, :) 04:50:52 beach: they were trying to do that from the beginning IIRC 04:51:15 now they're doing CoyotOS 04:52:04 Adamant: Right. 04:55:29 Anyway, I said they are solving the wrong problem (and they are not alone). For persistance, a battery is the best solution. 04:55:49 *tic* still believes in caching stuff to disk. 04:55:59 Sometimes "crash-proof" is cited as the goal, but then, what does "crash" mean? 04:56:28 tic: why would you need that if you have a battery? 04:57:00 beach, the best solution might not be the possible solution. 04:57:02 tic: if it is because the application might have a bug in it, then so might the file manager. 04:57:18 beach, so make sure to debug the file manager harder. 04:57:32 tic: exactly, and your application too, so you don't have to save to disk. 04:58:24 Now, another problem is checkpointing, but for different reasons, namely for things like "undo", and not for persistence or crash-proof-ness. 04:58:26 beach, it's more likely that your app crashes when developing it, and if you have no means of saving your data temporarily while debugging it. Say you work on an image, but your image app might not work very well. But you have save functionality, so you can always go back to the known state of the image. Of course, that assumes a split-up between application, data store and operating system. 04:58:58 ... that you might not be assuming. 04:59:18 tic: and I advocate an in-core "database" mechanism that would be part of the OS. 05:00:02 beach, right. 05:00:20 beach, but that part could have a unified view on memory and occasionally cache things to disk? 05:00:24 *tic* wants the disk! 05:01:02 It would all just look like memory. 05:01:05 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:01:19 *nod* 05:01:59 but not like linear memory with the possibility of writing an assembly program to poke anywhere. More like the Lisp heap. 05:02:16 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:02:40 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:02:43 Yeah. 05:04:36 Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-192-29.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:45 sqvirt [n=sqvirt@c-24-16-244-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:20:34 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:21:26 I have a bunch of functions that work on 2D arrays. Some of these functions also need to be able to handle the special case where one of the two dimensions has a size of 1. I have other functions that need to call the 2D array functions, many of which would call them with arrays with a single index. I could change those to call the functions with 1xN arrays or I could change the 2D array functions such that they munge vectors into a 05:21:26 1xN array, (meaning accesses are with two indices, one of which would always be 0). Is there a sexier way to do this in Lisp? Aside form row-major type accesses, which are not optimal for code readability in this case, is there a way to have a vector look like a 1xN array? Is the internal storage different between a vector and a 1xN array? 05:22:30 displaced arrays. 05:22:42 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@adsl-69-149-119-195.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:23:42 pkhuong: OK. Is that the best way? (In your opinion?) 05:25:26 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:12 -!- Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:28:12 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47371.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:20 -!- jsimonss [n=jesse@urda-140.teknologforeningen.fi] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:28:40 depends. If it's for performance, it might be simpler to pass around your own dimension descriptor + simple-array around, fortran-style. Otherwise, it works well enough. 05:29:06 pkhuong: OK, cool. Thanks! 05:31:07 jsimonss [n=jesse@urda-140.teknologforeningen.fi] has joined #lisp 05:31:10 Adrinael [n=adrinael@barrel.rolli.org] has joined #lisp 05:37:35 *beach* leaves for work 05:39:03 ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.70.49] has joined #lisp 05:40:17 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:02 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:41:14 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.85.39] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:41:16 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:49 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has quit ["Leaving."] 05:43:27 ebzzry__ [n=rmm@124.217.66.240] has joined #lisp 05:44:25 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46863.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:45:46 bpt_ [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:45:51 -!- bpt [n=bpt@rrcs-70-63-155-2.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:47:37 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@61.121.210.70] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 05:54:31 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:57:36 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:58:28 -!- ebzzry_ [n=rmm@124.217.70.49] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:59:37 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 05:59:47 -!- jlf [n=user@netblock-68-183-235-19.dslextreme.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:02:00 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:05:21 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@nat/redhat-in/x-6b5cdfb9967c5176] has joined #lisp 06:06:45 -!- topo_ [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:21:02 Good morning. 06:21:38 morning beach 06:23:21 The more I think about it, the more I am convinced that, given CL-Vectors, it won't be terribly hard to write a frame-buffer backend for McCLIM. 06:23:59 And I would love to generalize my Metafont-like embedded-language from Gsharp to a high-quality font-rendering system for McCLIM. 06:39:31 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.100] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:40:32 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 06:41:42 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 06:42:49 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has joined #lisp 06:43:01 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:00 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Excess Flood] 06:45:39 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:09 haiwei1 [n=haiwei@61.149.143.12] has joined #lisp 06:48:58 is there a function similar to nthcdr but instead gives the nthcar? 06:49:07 clhs nth 06:49:07 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_nth.htm 06:50:14 well i know that nth gives the nth element, but what about the first N elements? 06:50:30 clhs subseq 06:50:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_subseq.htm 06:50:58 *spiaggia* vanishes to go give his lecture. 06:51:04 err 06:51:10 drdo``` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 06:51:13 except the input is a list :P 06:51:15 not string 06:52:02 so? 06:52:38 gdmfsob [n=gdmfsob@92.112.107.168] has joined #lisp 06:54:20 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:55:09 :] 06:55:11 thanks 06:58:19 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:58:52 beaumonta [n=abeaumon@40.pool85-49-172.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 06:59:08 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-63-18.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 07:01:25 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:01:50 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@30.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:04:24 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:06:04 -!- tessier is now known as semanticman 07:06:13 -!- drdo`` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:07:04 -!- semanticman is now known as tessier 07:08:02 good morning 07:12:26 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 07:18:04 -!- haiwei1 [n=haiwei@61.149.143.12] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:18:14 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:19:48 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:23:17 -!- ausente [n=id@201-1-112-251.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [] 07:23:24 -!- gdmfsob [n=gdmfsob@92.112.107.168] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:25:23 drdo```` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 07:26:42 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 07:29:37 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has joined #lisp 07:30:03 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 07:32:50 Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:33:05 Why do I get the idea that lisp seems more powerful than anything else? 07:33:53 drdo````` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has joined #lisp 07:35:41 dthomp [n=dat@pool-71-111-55-176.ptldor.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:36:12 Quadrescence: Embrace the smug. 07:36:14 because someone's hyped it to you? 07:36:19 Quadrescence: it may be you have arrived at the idea yourself, writing something and getting an epepiphany; can also be you read too much Paul Graham and have become infludenced by authority. 07:36:52 s/infludenced/influenced 07:37:04 morning cmm 07:37:09 lispers are self-conciously, self-effacingly smug! how cool is that? 07:37:13 hi oudeis! 07:37:38 I have arrived to the idea from just thinking about it, and seeing the "problems" I have in other languages. 07:37:56 mczepiel [n=mczepiel@c-24-7-120-106.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:06 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:12 -!- drdo``` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:42:48 nostoi [n=nostoi@224.Red-83-45-251.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:50 *tic* back at work. 07:47:48 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:48:01 -!- gigamonk` is now known as gigamonkey` 07:48:59 -!- drdo```` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:49:08 _9david [n=user@wallstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has joined #lisp 07:51:06 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:53:55 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-227.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 07:54:24 -!- dthomp [n=dat@pool-71-111-55-176.ptldor.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:56:00 -!- drdo````` [n=psykon@167.111.54.77.rev.vodafone.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:59:16 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 08:03:42 -!- mogunus [n=marco@173.9.7.10] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 08:04:51 pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 08:05:03 -!- Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has left #lisp 08:05:25 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.252.245] has joined #lisp 08:06:31 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 08:07:25 trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:09:11 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C101.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 08:09:49 -!- sunwukong [n=salvi@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has quit ["bye"] 08:11:20 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 08:13:15 -!- xinming [n=hyy@218.73.135.227] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:16:10 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:16:42 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-65-113.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 08:17:31 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-65-113.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:18:40 argh, now that i've updated sbcl they are dying due to running out of memory. did something with the gc change? 08:20:26 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:21:35 -!- knobo [n=user@cartman.nextra.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:23:00 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 08:23:33 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 08:24:08 good morning ;) 08:27:21 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 08:29:37 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-63-18.netcologne.de] has quit [] 08:30:44 ,asdf 08:31:02 !asdf 08:31:28 (+ 1 2 3) 08:32:03 minion? 08:32:25 minion: tell trebor_win about asdf 08:32:26 trebor_win: direct your attention towards asdf: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/asdf 08:32:57 thank you arbscht. 08:33:00 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 08:33:17 Can you access news.gmane.org? 08:33:24 splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has joined #lisp 08:33:24 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:33:26 morning 08:33:28 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 08:33:53 segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1E0FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:59 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E0FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:34:02 NNTP on news.gmane.org was down an hour ago 08:35:01 minion: tell trebor_win about minion 08:35:01 trebor_win: direct your attention towards minion: minion is an IRC robot (who prefers the term "electronically composed.") For online help, try /msg minion help Minion is hosted at common-lisp.net and is usually connected to the #lisp IRC channel. http://www.cliki.net/minion 08:35:02 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-65-113.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 08:36:23 minion: tell me about lisp 08:36:24 Quadrescence: please look at lisp: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 08:39:01 And still news.gmane.org is unreachable from my New York host, with a traceroute disappearing inside a Phoenix Global Crossing host. 08:41:36 kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has joined #lisp 08:42:36 gdmfsob [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 08:42:49 hello lispers 08:43:06 hello kiuma 08:43:38 trebor-win pasted "asdf under windows ... " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69684 08:44:04 can someone give me a hint what i am doing wrong - using asdf under windows? 08:45:32 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:47:12 trebor_win: is your bmp-io.asd file in one of the locations mentioned in asdf:*cetral-registry*? 08:47:18 or whatever it was called 08:47:45 jdz: it is in the current directory. 08:48:04 trebor_win: so is your current directory in asdf:*central-registry*? 08:48:32 *trebor_win* does not know anything about asdf:*central-registry* 08:48:49 -!- mczepiel [n=mczepiel@c-24-7-120-106.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 08:48:55 s/does not know/reads 08:50:36 _zenon_ [n=x@dhcp-199-35.nomad.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 08:51:05 that sounds very bad (asdf under windows) - one needs admin-rights to do that (user-homedir-pathname) points to a partition which is only writeable with admin rights (here). 08:51:56 trebor_win: huh? 08:52:10 trebor_win: did you read any documentation? which one? 08:52:17 http://www.cliki.net/asdf#clispWindows 08:53:08 jsnell: you are probably following sbcl's gc patches closely... do you remember any interesting changes to it in the last year that could affect memory usage? i've updated to head and now my servers are running out of memory... does it ring any bells? 08:53:20 i can not write on c:/ 08:53:35 trebor_win: how about http://constantly.at/lisp/asdf/ 08:53:36 ? 08:55:00 trebor_win: especially http://constantly.at/lisp/asdf/Using-asdf-to-load-systems.html#Using%20asdf%20to%20load%20systems 08:57:06 thanks jdz, that looks a lot better 08:57:27 *trebor_win* obviously lacks coffee 08:57:44 i just don't get it why people prefer ramblings of random people on the internet to the manuals... 08:58:02 -!- `nipra [n=nipra@202.87.51.241] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:59:08 hosiawak [n=user@host81-137-9-70.in-addr.btopenworld.com] has joined #lisp 08:59:53 rebra [n=rebra@85.112.137.146] has joined #lisp 09:00:13 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@224.Red-83-45-251.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:01:30 sorry, i admit i tried to avoid reading all the internals (manual) and just jump to the how-to-use-it part (tutorial). 09:02:28 trebor_win: well, you know the drill: when everything else fails try reading the manual. 09:02:40 and only then go asking other people. 09:03:26 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-197-248.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:04:39 tic [n=tic@83.218.67.122] has joined #lisp 09:05:24 minion, logs 09:05:25 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 09:08:56 g'day 09:09:01 hi schme_. 09:09:10 Hello tic! 09:09:18 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:10:04 schme_, I too got up at 04:30 today. For me, unlike you, it's a wee bit early. 09:10:11 :) 09:10:14 What for? 09:10:57 Woke up and couldn't sleep more? I'd really prefer to get up at 07.30 today, but alas. Had to waste 3h doing nothing. :) 09:11:10 Welll... 09:11:16 you could have gone down to the gym, or hack code ;) 09:11:29 (too tired to hack) 09:12:23 :( 09:15:08 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:19:23 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:21:01 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-31-225.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 09:21:41 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has joined #lisp 09:24:22 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:28:04 -!- _zenon_ [n=x@dhcp-199-35.nomad.chalmers.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:29:39 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 09:30:01 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:31:28 mikesch [n=axel@static-87-79-66-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 09:32:05 -!- jao [n=user@79.155.244.72] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:33:50 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-64-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 09:34:59 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 09:35:42 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:38:28 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:38:28 Right so now I'm looking for a neat thing to calculate how many characters will fit on a horizontal line in a pane. 09:38:59 Is there some size of pane thing and size of font thing perhaps? 09:40:10 schme_: Both, I believe, and both are indeed necessary. 09:40:57 Horray :) 09:40:59 because of kerning, you need to give to figure out width-of-string 09:41:05 *schme_* kicks up the specs. 09:41:54 schme_: A pane doesn't have a width, but a pane is a sheet, and a sheet has a region, and a region has a bounding rectangle that you can ask for. 09:41:55 I guess I could put a "Don't run this thing on less than 1920x1280" 09:42:15 aaah yes. 09:42:18 Thanks. 09:42:55 for the text, use text-style-width 09:42:59 clim text-style-width 09:42:59 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/11-1.html#_585 09:43:05 clim sheet-region 09:43:05 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/7-3.html#_273 09:43:06 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 09:43:11 clim bounding-rectangle* 09:43:11 http://bauhh.dyndns.org:8000/clim-spec/4-1.html#_157 09:43:38 That'll keep you busy for a while :) 09:44:32 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Client Quit] 09:45:10 Aah thanks mate! 09:51:53 schme_: you might have to pay attention to the coordinate system in which the verious things are given. The sheet-region is in the coordinate system of its parent for instance (I think). Sometimes it could be better to use sheet-device-region or sheet-native-region. 09:51:56 tic: What's kerning anyway? 09:52:26 schme_: moving two adjacent characters closer or further appart to give a better visual impression. 09:52:27 spiaggia: I see. I'll remember that when stuff gets very odd :) 09:52:33 Oh. 09:53:16 schme_: for instance x and o should move closer to avoid a seemingly larger-than-normal distance between them due to the shape of the x. 09:53:23 I know nothing of these fancy things. I just use mono fonts everywhere. 09:53:34 That sounds yucky :) 09:53:42 atleast on a screen :) 09:53:49 schme_: it's messy, but it's part of the art of typography. 09:53:53 -!- rebra [n=rebra@85.112.137.146] has quit [] 09:54:11 Ya.. Thank the great atheisimo for tex :) 09:54:37 *spiaggia* disappears to a meeting. 09:54:43 have fun. 09:54:53 yeah, right! 09:55:11 o/~ always look on the bright side of life o/~ 09:55:16 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 09:55:48 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-18-217.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:58:46 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:00:08 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:00:17 weirdo [i=sthalik@c144-107.icpnet.pl] has joined #lisp 10:06:15 Ya baby. (text-size pane "foo") seems to work. Not quite sure just what "96" means, but it seems to be something :D 10:06:37 oh device units 10:13:12 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-65-113.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 10:21:54 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-b9e5b3e900a55c88] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:21:58 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:24:11 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #lisp 10:28:09 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-134-21.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 10:30:16 Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:30:27 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-65-113.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 10:34:44 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:35:21 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:35:25 afternoon 10:36:04 hi nikodemus. 10:37:47 hello nikodemus 10:38:20 i'm struggling with memory overflow now. not sure if it's due to the sbcl upgrade or the extreme load... 10:38:36 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:40:01 i've reverted the servers to the old sbcl now. when one falls, i start the old image there 10:45:30 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.90.61] has quit [] 10:53:50 dabd [n=dabd@85.139.98.72] has joined #lisp 10:54:46 the only thing in NEWS since 1.0.12 that looks like it could have a hand is changes to type check weakening, and more conservative folding of satisfies types 10:55:29 Hmm.. what unit is the return value of BOUNDING-RECTANGLE-WIDTH ? it does not seem to be the same as TEXT-SIZE returns ? 10:55:47 oh wait. 10:55:51 Well nevermind. 10:55:52 :) 10:56:11 attila_lendvai: this could actually have a bearing on your invalid-layout problem: 10:56:28 * bug fix: the CTOR optimization for MAKE-INSTANCE should no longer create obsolete instances in the case of redefinition or obsoletion of a superclass. (thanks to Andy Hefner) 10:56:39 in 1.0.14 10:57:47 nikodemus: it's too hectic now, but i think i've seen the AVER even on the new sbcl's. what caused most of the deaths is a 100% cpu in gc when memory reached about half the size of the available heap (copying gc) 10:57:48 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:58:01 ouch 10:58:44 most of the nodes are running with old sbcl now (as they died out... :| 10:59:18 and they seem to be more stable re memory, but it's 12:00... people went to eat... 11:01:29 are you able to get mem/gc stats from the old/new versions and compare? 11:02:34 i'm reluctant to even connect with slime... because i suspect some correlation with nodes dying and connecting. although it may be due to that i connect where i see trouble coming... :) 11:02:58 ksp11 [n=paul@p54BFF714.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:09 (room) and friends were definitely killers in certain states, so i avoid them 11:03:34 ugh, that's bad 11:03:53 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9CBA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:12:50 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 11:13:21 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-134-21.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:14:30 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-134-21.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 11:15:33 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit [Client Quit] 11:17:19 Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 11:19:50 -!- z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has quit ["leaving"] 11:19:57 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 11:20:07 Ashy [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #lisp 11:24:06 yeah, ROOM is not nice at all 11:24:47 is sb-sprof in :alloc mode stable for you? 11:25:28 actually, ROOM in C would be great, because then you could run it from ldb to make a post-mortem 11:26:01 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:27:23 we were debugging these problems using a path-to-root that we implemented using map-allocated-objects. after a few patches it was not automatically lethal, so when things were close to death we looked around for references holding back stuff from gc. 11:27:43 p-t-r is sent to sbcl-devel, waiting on my TODO to add it to sb-introspect 11:29:05 map-allocated-objects? That sounds very useful. 11:29:33 I imagine you'd have to be very careful not to cons at all while iterating. 11:29:34 we didn't try sb-sprof in :alloc yet. our problem is mostly having stale references and retaining object from gc, not mere consing... :) 11:29:42 -!- ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:29:47 ``Erik_ [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:26 yes, requires a certain amount of heap space before starting. but iirc p-t-r is smart enough to detect and skip its own allocation... 11:37:15 benny [n=benny@i577A0FFC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:39:23 once i'll have some time for the infrastructure again, i'll set up a stress test with our new codebase that simulates real-world usage... 11:41:14 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-123.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 11:44:36 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB9CBA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:44:42 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9CBA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:44:48 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 11:46:24 Yay! 15 minutes until the next meeting. That's plenty of time for lunch. 11:49:23 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:49:46 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-209-64.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 11:50:09 -!- duck1123 [i=duck@adsl-75-46-46-243.dsl.sfldmi.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 11:50:36 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 11:53:43 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X7e30.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:35 yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has joined #lisp 11:55:45 rsynnott_ [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has joined #lisp 11:57:19 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 11:59:48 cbrannon [n=user@ip68-12-115-220.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 12:01:19 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:01:24 -!- rsynnott [i=rsynnott@spoon.netsoc.tcd.ie] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:04:15 draven [n=draven@shm67-2-82-227-190-152.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 12:06:06 Good way to cut the last character off of a string? 12:07:49 subseq 12:07:54 (subseq string 0 (1- (length string))) 12:08:23 Better: Find a better way to solve your problem. What problem are you trying to solve by chopping the last character off of a string? 12:08:49 dwave [n=ask@pat-tdc.opera.com] has joined #lisp 12:10:32 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 12:11:40 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:14:52 ths [n=ths@p549AEEB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:16:00 Riastradh: I have a string of some length and I'm displaying it in a CLIM pane, and sometimes the strings are too long and I need to shorten 'em. 12:16:12 Riastradh: So I compare TEXT-SIZE to the size of the region. 12:16:50 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB9816.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:17:03 I'm all ears for a better solution, of course. I'm not looking forward to repeatedly doing subseq, length, compare. :) 12:17:12 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9CBA.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:17:15 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 12:17:44 For example I have "Vegetables and Vegetable Products" which is too long. 12:18:05 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:18:26 text-size takes START and END arguments if I'm not mistaken 12:18:41 Hmm... 12:18:46 oh ya it does. 12:19:00 That will be neater for sure :) 12:19:20 ... not that I'd expect the overhead of SUBSEQ to be large compared to the overall time you'd spend doing TEXT-SIZE calls 12:19:26 Not that performance is much of an issue here, but insane ugliness is ;) 12:19:36 Me neither. 12:19:40 But the ugly! 12:21:09 I guess the proper way is to store it away somewhere after it has been checked once. 12:21:28 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:22:41 text-size ought to be quite fast, at least through mcclim-truetype or mcclim-freetype 12:22:59 (I don't know about the vanilla CLX text path, because I didn't spend time optimizing that) 12:24:03 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:24:21 but yeah, it isn't ideal. ideally you could iterate through and compute the size yourself, instead of repeating for various subsequences. 12:24:24 mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has joined #lisp 12:24:30 the stream output code does the same thing, it's kind of stupid. 12:25:22 How do you mean compute the size myself? 12:26:47 disumu [n=disumu@p57A24C75.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:27:09 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:27:10 like looping through the string summing the width of individual characters and breaking out when it exceeds a threshold, so you can do your line wrapping / abbreviation / whatever 12:27:29 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:27:51 my point is there's no interface to do that short of calling text-size on single character strings (and doing it that would fail to account for kerning, in the fantasy world where any of the text output paths used kerning) 12:28:19 well, maybe some do using kerning. mcclim-[true/free]type doesn't. :) 12:28:44 That is what I was thinking of.. the kerning. Just summing the individual characters maybe would make stuff odd. 12:29:06 Oh well time for work. I'll sort something out. HAve a good one guys and gals :) 12:30:27 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:30:50 -!- yoshinori [n=read_eva@router1.gpy1.ms246.net] has left #lisp 12:31:37 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:33:53 I just tried to build SBCL on Solaris/SPARC, and it failed trying to link the objects of the hand-written assembly files sparc-assem.S &c. Oh well -- no time to look into this now. 12:34:15 chandler, let me know if you'd like to see a script of the build process. 12:35:31 I think clim-gtkairo does kerning in cases where the entire string is handed off to pango (and the effect would be reflected in text-size results), but doesn't offer the exact pango functions to do what scheme_ needs. 12:35:44 Riastradh: Yes, I would 12:36:08 -!- Ashy [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:36:14 I'm guessing that you could render the entire string as a multiline text using pango, letting it wrap it at the desired pane width. 12:37:07 gcc on Sparc/solaris can operate in two modes, using gnu as or using sun as 12:37:19 Yes, that's what I was about to ask 12:37:24 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:37:31 the syntax of sparc-assem.S is written for one (I think GNU); I never found a way of writing for both simultaneously 12:37:36 also, I completely failed to set up a Solaris/x86 build host yesterday 12:38:12 Excuse me a minute while I struggle with AFS. 12:39:20 http://www.lichteblau.com/blubba/oops.png was an amusing example of the difference where the power of pango was used unintentionally 12:41:13 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:43:03 Apparently my error in setting up an OpenSolaris build machine yesterday was in hitting the "refresh" button in the package manager. 12:43:35 It did let me find a GNU screen package, but that package depended on an upgraded version of the C library that managed to break the system ld. 12:43:57 ...hahaha. 12:45:19 Does anyone here by any chance know how to make a directory unlistable by anyone but its owner, yet a subdirectory listable, in AFS? 12:45:43 ...hmm, this is a lot of trouble to go through to avoid copying the build log to another machine. 12:46:47 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has joined #lisp 12:46:57 chandler, here's the log: 12:48:17 Xof: I had thought that it was supposed to build with either GNU or Sun as these daays - there's certainly logic in sparc-fundef.sh for this. 12:48:26 Riastradh: 403 12:49:20 Aaargh! It's contagious, the access control list bogosity! 12:49:27 mumble.net doesn't even use AFS! 12:49:45 Try now. 12:50:14 Thanks. 12:50:16 Works now. 12:51:29 chandler: heh, shows how out of date I am 12:52:44 -!- gdmfsob is now known as mishok13 12:52:54 -!- ksp11 [n=paul@p54BFF714.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 12:54:02 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:54:09 Xof: It's been so long since I built on SPARC/Solaris that I didn't remember much either. 12:55:40 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-134-21.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 12:56:16 stassats [n=stassats@ppp91-122-109-68.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 12:58:22 Riastradh: I'm afraid I'm not going to be able to debug that one telepathically. 12:59:05 so many WARNINGz 12:59:22 you has warningz? 12:59:26 You could try sprinkling some ".align 8" pixie dust around, or maybe seeing if the last version on the web site builds successfully, and bisecting from there. 12:59:33 -!- dabd [n=dabd@85.139.98.72] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:00:52 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 13:01:29 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 13:01:50 chandler, OK, that'll have to wait until the weekend. 13:05:14 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 13:10:08 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:13:45 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 13:14:34 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 13:17:55 -!- StasNev [n=wizard@94.50.175.122] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:02 StasNev [n=wizard@94.50.168.203] has joined #lisp 13:22:20 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:23:03 -!- ryepup2 is now known as ryepup 13:25:39 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A24C75.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 13:27:36 nyef: 13:27:46 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:28:37 -!- draven [n=draven@shm67-2-82-227-190-152.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["leaving"] 13:29:32 Can we make jokes about the term "sexp" here? :D 13:31:59 that reminds me -- i wanted to check that we align stuff x86-assem.S reasonably (at 16 bytes, that is) 13:32:22 oops, we don't 13:32:28 *nikodemus* twiddles 13:34:10 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:35:23 -!- segv__ [n=mb@p4FC1E0FC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:35:27 segv [n=mb@p4FC1F04E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:31 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 13:39:53 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 13:40:05 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:41:35 kenny [n=kentilto@ool-18bb7ae5.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:07 tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2C016.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:43:40 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-100-227.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:45:23 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 13:47:52 -!- brandelune [n=JC@pl044.nas933.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has left #lisp 13:50:12 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-091-089-250-148.hsi2.kabel-badenwuerttemberg.de] has joined #lisp 13:50:49 kib2_ [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 13:50:51 why are "provide" and "require" deprecated? 13:51:22 -!- mindCrime [n=chatzill@cpe-075-177-141-190.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 13:51:39 -!- Quadrescence [n=quad@c-24-118-118-178.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has left #lisp 13:55:06 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:55:06 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:55:53 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:56:24 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 13:57:02 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:57:30 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 13:57:53 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:57:54 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:00:28 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:43 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-18-217.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 14:03:09 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:06:51 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p2084-ipbf1006osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:08:37 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:11:52 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska176142.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:12:18 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279442362.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 14:12:54 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 14:15:12 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:15:22 What was the name of function which checks type of args and invoke error if the type does not matches? I forgot. 14:15:26 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 14:15:48 check-type 14:15:49 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 14:15:52 very obscure name! 14:16:02 :) 14:16:16 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 14:16:38 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 14:16:39 Xach: Thanks! 14:16:59 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 14:17:21 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:18:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:18:37 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has left #lisp 14:22:31 -!- wasabi__ [n=wasabi@ntoska176142.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:33 haiwei [n=haiwei@61.51.77.240] has joined #lisp 14:25:04 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 14:25:38 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 14:25:42 'morning 14:31:09 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p2084-ipbf1006osakakita.osaka.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:33:54 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:34:49 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:36:12 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48] has joined #lisp 14:37:01 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 14:37:10 -!- kenny [n=kentilto@ool-18bb7ae5.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 14:41:38 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:43:37 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:43:59 So I am trying to use the code from PCL chapter 31. I have put the chapter-31.asd in the proper path, and did a "require chapter-31" in my test program. It works, but not without prefixing stuff (such as the html macro) with com.gigamonkeys.html:. Is there a way around this? 14:45:40 wgl: one option is to "use" all exported symbols by defining a package that does (:use #:com.gigamonkeys.html) in the defpackage 14:45:58 wgl: you can also import individual symbols with the (:import-from ...) and (:shadowing-import-from ...) clauses of defpackage 14:46:28 another possibility is to use ADD-PACKAGE-NICKNAME so that the package is accessible as, say, "HTML" 14:48:11 who gives you ADD-PACKAGE-NICKNAME? 14:49:03 See ADD-NICKNAME in http://darcs.informatimago.com/lisp/common-lisp/package.lisp 14:49:13 er. brain fart, indeed 14:49:23 bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:49:28 z0d [n=z0d@unaffiliated/z0d] has joined #lisp 14:49:55 (define add-package-nickname (p n) (com.informatimago.common-lisp.package:add-nickname p n)) 14:49:59 s/define/defun/ 14:50:36 (defmacro define ... 14:51:06 the fact that it's pretty easy to define got mis-cached as "available in the base language" 14:51:23 nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:51:28 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.103] has quit ["bbl"] 14:52:58 might just use RENAME-PACKAGE directly 14:53:49 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:55:15 xach: the use #:com.gigamonkeys.html gives me a "com.gigamonkeys.html" not found required by (my package) 14:55:46 wgl: does using package prefixes work? 14:55:57 wgl: Are you using some non-standard reader? 14:56:07 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 14:56:17 rdd` [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:57:15 haiwei1 [n=haiwei@221.219.133.119] has joined #lisp 14:57:27 xach: Yes, using the package prefix with one colon (com.gigamonkeys.html:html) works. 14:57:41 pkhoung: No, just regular sbcl 14:57:57 wgl: that seems a little odd. could you paste what you tried? 14:58:13 and the error message, verbatim. 14:58:34 lieven_ [n=lieven@ip-213-49-240-62.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #lisp 14:58:39 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:00:00 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:00:49 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@61.51.77.240] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:02:06 -!- technik_ is now known as technik 15:02:56 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb856c.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:02:57 bert pasted "intervals" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69697 15:03:49 I have a problem with something. Here's a description: http://paste.lisp.org/display/69697 15:04:03 It's really difficult.. =P 15:04:29 is it a homework? 15:04:33 xach:Pasted at http://paste.lisp.org/69698, not suer why it is showing up automatically. 15:05:38 wgl you mistranscribed that link, it needs /display/ 15:05:50 stassats, yes it is. but I can't get anywhere, really nowhere. I have no Idea on how to even start doing that... 15:06:11 -!- wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:06:17 bertskert: read some lisp book 15:06:20 wgl: if your .asd file is named chapter-31.asd, the :depends-on thing must be chapter-31, not com.gigamonkeys.html 15:07:30 stassats, no help? not even a small and tiny clue? (gazing with biig angel eyes) 15:08:20 wgl [n=wgl@216.145.227.9] has joined #lisp 15:08:21 I have read, and I've studied everything we've had, but I just don't know how to solve it 15:08:30 xach: lost my client there for a minute. the paste is at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69698 15:08:31 bertskert: i doubt anyone here want to read and understand your problem 15:08:43 bertskert: this is not a good channel for people who want to learn just enough lisp to do an assignment, but a decent place if you want to get good at lisp. 15:08:48 wgl: if your .asd file is named chapter-31.asd, the :depends-on thing must be chapter-31, not com.gigamonkeys.html 15:09:16 wgl: package management and system management are a bit separate 15:09:18 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:11:53 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-172.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:20 -!- beaumonta is now known as abeaumont 15:12:21 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 15:12:24 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:12:27 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:13:14 -!- gigamonkey` [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:13:57 *fusss* thoroughly impressed with DUIM API 15:15:35 xach: Thanks. I had confused system/package and now it works with chapter-31 in my .asd file, and #:com.gigamonkeys.html in the :use clause. 15:15:57 fusss: what in particular impresses you? 15:16:16 wgl: yay 15:16:35 xach, ok, thanks anyways! 15:16:46 splittist: even though it's as abstract as our clim, it doesn't feel that way. just how conscious the spec is of the underlying system 15:17:07 it knows its place and just tries to wrap what's there 15:18:08 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has joined #lisp 15:18:25 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 15:18:26 clhs ~[ 15:18:26 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cgb.htm 15:18:31 fusss: well, it was created by the CLIM spec writer, so it ought to read as a bit of a tidy up. (Omitting the things that were never implemented for CLIM, for example.) 15:18:45 yep 15:19:08 and the fact that they looked at "MFC,Tk, Fresco, Java and CAPI" 15:19:20 in 1996! 15:19:21 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:20:03 gah, sub-serve-event again... it gets stuck, probably when the remote side closes the connection in a certain moment 15:20:47 fusss: So it was right at the beginning of the defeatist era in GUIs (: 15:20:49 i wish iolib was inside sb-bsd-sockets, or we moved to the new codebase finally... :| 15:21:55 splittist: they really deserved to win. i can live with subservient GUI API. hate smalltalk for taking over my desktop and trying to be everything for me. 15:22:09 xach: what is the trick to get lisppaste to notify the channel? 15:22:17 wgl: use the link in the topic 15:22:21 G'morning all. 15:22:34 morning nyef 15:22:39 morn' nyef 15:23:45 Morning. 15:24:04 attila_lendvai: why would you want iolib in sb-bsd-sockets? 15:24:15 morn' 15:25:02 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:26:13 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:26:35 tic: i upgraded http://l1sp.org/search slightly 15:26:42 -!- haiwei1 [n=haiwei@221.219.133.119] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:27:26 fusss: because i have numerous issues with sbcl's sockets, while iolib seems to be much more stable (although i've never exposed it to 500 users as i did with sbcl's) 15:28:10 doesn't iolib just wrap sb-bsd-sockets? 15:28:23 fusss: hehh, not at all :) 15:28:36 live and learn :-P 15:28:56 iolib goes directly to the system calls through cffi(-grovel) 15:29:01 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-184-207-175.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:29:20 so i'm the only one who can't use cffi-grovel 15:29:37 is there a manual for that thing? 15:29:40 fusss: the iolib repo is a good place for examples 15:31:00 morning 15:32:40 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslr056.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:32:51 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-211-179-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:33:02 bpt__ [n=bpt@rrcs-70-63-155-2.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:33:23 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslr056.osnanet.de] has left #lisp 15:33:43 -!- bpt_ [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:02 Cymew [n=user@U2.N59.QueensU.CA] has joined #lisp 15:35:14 dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has joined #lisp 15:35:53 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 15:36:10 hello 15:36:12 -!- jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:36:24 Xach, search box, nice. 15:36:35 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:37:07 ths_ [n=ths@p549AD0D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:09 Xach, for cases when there's only one result, e.g. a-r-m-i, pondered making an instant redirect? (think I've asked earlier) 15:37:28 tic: i don't think so, mostly because you might not go where you expected to go. 15:38:42 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-64-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:38:44 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.66.240] has joined #lisp 15:38:47 *Xach* is not feeling lucky 15:39:19 -!- ebzzry__ [n=rmm@124.217.66.240] has quit [Killed by ballard.freenode.net (Nick collision)] 15:39:20 photon [n=photon@84.171.231.38] has joined #lisp 15:39:31 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:39:33 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslr056.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 15:39:50 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 15:40:13 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslr056.osnanet.de] has left #lisp 15:40:31 -!- Cymew [n=user@U2.N59.QueensU.CA] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 15:41:58 *nyef* ponders "Lisp: Good News, Bad News, How to Win Big". 15:43:24 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:43:39 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 15:43:40 *H4ns* prints to re-read 15:44:28 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AEEB3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 15:45:26 fusss_ [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:00 -!- splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:46:00 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:46:05 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB9816.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:46:09 -!- fusss_ is now known as fusss 15:46:15 splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has joined #lisp 15:46:21 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9816.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 15:46:30 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 15:46:32 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:46:53 antgreen [n=green@localhost.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 15:47:57 My main takeaways are that the delivery, integration, and development environment situations are even worse now than they were then, that the "reorganizer" from the lucid delivery kit sounds pretty cool, that some of the arguments in favor of using a treeshaker instead of explicit linking-in of required libraries are specious. 15:49:25 Aiee. Runaway link on Planet Lisp. 15:50:10 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:50:18 ryepup1 [n=ryepup@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 15:50:46 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 15:51:14 *Xach* fixes 15:51:22 nyef: end-user delivery? that has never standardized in ANY language. integration .. ummmm, i don't understand. Development environment, for me, personally, the only reason i don't even bother firing up commercial lisps i have trials for is their lack of good SLIME support. 15:51:23 nyef: We're fast approaching the era in which just shipping the whole compiler with your application is only a marginal amount of extra overhead. Perhaps no delivery scheme is really necessary after all. 15:51:51 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 15:52:03 chandler: agreed. CL + Lispbuilder = 4 megs. 15:52:53 when stuff like Git is 158 megs, and 40+ binaries .. damn, 15:53:03 anyone around who understand ir2-lvar-kind :delayed? 15:53:19 adeht [n=death@212.150.201.41] has joined #lisp 15:53:28 milanj [n=milan@77.46.187.132] has joined #lisp 15:54:39 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 15:55:00 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 15:55:01 how do lisp use (or ...), if the first is true, the the other arguments skipped then, like in C? 15:55:09 clhs or 15:55:09 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_or.htm 15:55:10 yes 15:55:11 yep 15:55:22 thx =) 15:55:27 that's why they're macros 15:55:47 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:55:57 bertskert: better yet, think of a way to find out for yourself 15:56:14 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:56:18 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:56:18 if you're given a Lisp that does short-circuit OR and one that doesn't, how would you tell the difference? 15:56:55 have the last argument do a (format ? 15:57:11 chandler: I don't buy it, and the reason I don't buy it is embedded systems development. 15:57:54 nyef: The definition of "embedded" is being wildly stretched these days too :-) 15:57:57 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 15:58:27 nyef: depends on the kind of "embedded". In my new gsm phone, that's half the volume of the previous one, there's a 4GB chip. It could contain the whole sources for the phone firmware along with the development tools. 15:58:40 True, but over the past couple days we were discussing platforms on which we are unlikely to be able to run a full SBCL core. 15:58:54 On the other hand, the microcontroller I'm working on has only 64k of RAM. Good luck squeezing any of SBCL on that. 15:59:08 What microcontroller? 15:59:11 But there were full fleshed lisps in 64KB processors. 15:59:17 nyef: It's a NXP LPC2k 15:59:30 matimago: yes, see http://armpit.sourceforge.net/ 15:59:38 (terrible project name!) 15:59:42 :-) 15:59:48 I was very impressed to see that it does full call/cc, and not just escape continuations. 15:59:57 that challenges lisp for bad names 16:00:02 Hrm... Not familiar with that microcontroller... 16:00:11 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:00:11 nyef: Very small ARMs. 16:00:42 Ah. 16:00:46 chandler: gilberth mentioned that the ACL runtime needed only ~5mb whereas SBCL seems to need ~25mb; any idea the reason for this big difference? 16:00:52 I think that just makes my point. 16:01:19 locklace: I'm not sure which number he's quoting there. ACL does allow you to remove the compiler for distribution. 16:01:42 Also, ACL aggressively uses autoloading from FASLs for many features, where SBCL puts a lot into the default core. 16:01:59 chandler: which seems like a feature franz would want, but not necessarily one the developer or the customer would want 16:02:05 (removing the compiler that is) 16:02:23 ACL's fasl loading is really fast, so it's not as painful to push things into fasls as on SBCL. 16:02:25 dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:02:31 -!- bpt__ [n=bpt@rrcs-70-63-155-2.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:03:07 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279403734.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:03:13 ok, both of those strategies are wins when targeting systems with constrained resources 16:03:24 You know, something could probably be done to improve SBCL's fasloading speed. 16:03:34 No doubt. 16:03:39 you mean, actually make them fasls instead of slols? 16:03:42 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.171.97] has quit [Success] 16:04:23 I mean, really, a symbol lookup per relocation to determine the relocation type is a bit much. 16:05:17 but i think pkhuong mentioned that in sbcl format alone touches ~24mb of code 16:06:17 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp435.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 16:06:22 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp435.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 16:07:01 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 16:07:26 nyef: The problem is that if I keep going down my "wouldn't it be nice if" list, I wind up at the point of writing a new compiler for something that's not CL. 16:07:44 Cloxhure 16:08:05 Cthulhure 16:08:10 *dlowe* has a side project called snarc 16:09:02 chandler: Is that such a loss? 16:09:27 No, but I don't have the time to do such a thing myself. 16:09:36 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:11:21 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:13:10 Well, since they target wearable computers, armpit is a fit name, I'd say. :-) 16:13:14 mikesch_ [n=axel@static-87-79-66-80.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 16:15:08 hoerup [n=hoerup@62.61.134.78.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk] has joined #lisp 16:16:25 -!- ryepup [n=ryepup@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:17:45 -!- _9david [n=user@wallstrasse.knowledgetools.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:18:03 Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:18:31 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 16:20:22 a reminder to the awake SBCL developers: I am still looking for a victim to try http://paste.lisp.org/display/69649 16:22:17 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:07 -!- hoerup [n=hoerup@62.61.134.78.generic-hostname.arrownet.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:25:55 is it safe to nickname package foo-sys :sys? 16:25:59 (but, I'm leaving right now, so probably not a good time to try it) 16:26:28 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:26:31 fusss: It doesn't seem like a good idea to me. 16:26:32 there are way too many *-sys packages and i don't know if the nicknames will collide 16:26:50 fusss: for one, CLISP has its own SYS package. 16:26:59 I'd guess at least one other implementation does too. 16:27:26 yep; sys, ext, custom, and user are bad nicknames 16:28:02 do you know if there is a project with acronym "atk"? 16:28:17 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:29:15 -!- mikesch [n=axel@static-87-79-66-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:29:40 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 16:29:58 -!- mikesch_ [n=axel@static-87-79-66-80.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:30:31 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 16:32:16 atk is part of gnome. 16:32:26 atk is an accesibility library for gtk 16:33:14 ATK is a special purpose framework, targeted at business applications 16:33:15 hmmm 16:33:41 (also, a leading provider of advanced space systems) 16:34:17 it's not my intention to create lisp wrappers for advanced space systems :-| 16:34:32 Tordek [n=tordek@host79.190-137-181.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:34:36 how did i inhibit optimizations w/o recompiling everything? 16:34:39 sbcl 16:34:45 -!- dakeyras [n=dakeyras@pool-98-117-125-63.sttlwa.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 16:34:50 did or do? 16:35:07 do 16:35:25 there was some special variable 16:35:29 erm 16:36:35 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.252.13] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:36:45 "inhibit optimizations w/o recompiling everything?" 16:37:20 if you do that, what effect do you expect it to have on compiled code? 16:37:21 fusss: SYSTEM and SYS are reserved package names, for the implementation. FOO-SYS is ok, but you shouldn't nickname it SYS. 16:37:44 nikodemus_, braino, sorry. recompile everything but don't change every place in the code 16:37:49 restrict-compiler-policy 16:37:50 which you don't want to recompile, presumably 16:37:56 that's it 16:38:37 Xof: I did come up with a semi-solution to my floating point math problem. 16:38:44 envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 16:38:46 matimago: is that reservation described in the standard? 16:39:11 UnwashedMeme1, thx 16:39:13 gigamonk`: I'm interested 16:39:36 -!- envi_home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Client Quit] 16:40:44 Well, it's pretty app specific. But since the basic problem was that I was computing the combined probability of 51 probs (50 states + DC) and then computing scenarios involving pegging one of the states at 1.0 or 0.0 I (duh) figured out I could compute the combination of all the states except the ones involved in special scenarios and then copy that array and fold in the interesting states for each scenario. 16:41:09 Since the whole point of the fold-in back-out foo was to reduce the total amount of computation, this is a reasonable solution. 16:41:11 wgl pasted "Test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69701 16:41:20 gigamonk`: did you ever take a screenshot? i'd like to see it. 16:41:50 Anyone know offhand how to take a screen shot on OS X? 16:42:19 there's a utility to do it. has a scissor on the icon, iirc. 16:42:26 i mean, a built-in utility. 16:42:38 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm89.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Success] 16:42:43 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279403734.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:42:47 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9816.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:42:53 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279403734.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:42:54 Question about sbcl's --script option. How can I make a shebang script AND have the site-initialization from /etc/sbclrc? 16:42:56 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm89.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 16:42:57 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:43:11 gigamonk`: Command-Shift-3 16:43:14 Xach: yeah. I just can never remember the magic key code. I'm tracking it down though. 16:43:16 Ah. 16:43:23 -!- trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:43:29 dmitry_vk: (load "/etc/sbclrc") as the first line of the script. 16:44:42 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:45:08 Xach: I've done that already. But I don't like it: the same code can't be in a script and as a regular code. 16:45:35 nullwork_ [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:37 that's already the case. 16:46:26 Xach: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/election/election-2008-screenshot.png 16:46:56 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:47:40 gigamonk`: also Command-Shift-4 will allow you to select a region of the screen; and if you press space at that moment, you can also get a snapshot of a single window. 16:48:03 gigamonk: where will you be getting the data for that? 16:48:17 e271: intrade 16:48:17 jdz: yeah, that's the one I actually used. I had to turn them all back on though. 16:48:22 Ah, intrade. 16:48:28 yup. 16:50:15 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 16:50:16 Xach: IIRC, yes. 16:50:24 -!- ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:51:55 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 16:52:13 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 16:52:17 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.4] has joined #lisp 16:52:57 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:53:23 matimago: hmm, i don't see it in the package concepts section. it's an interesting claim and i don't think i've heard it before. 16:53:46 Well, they didn't make it it it seems. I find only reference of SYSTEM in a cleanup issue: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Issues/iss252_w.htm 16:54:35 gigamonk`: thanks for the screenshot, looks neat. 16:55:54 matimago: ok, thanks 16:56:04 -!- bougyman [i=bougyman@bougyman.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:56:16 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.164.68] has joined #lisp 16:57:30 any preferences for naming system wide generic equality operators? foo-equal implies to me an exhaustive element by element comparison, and foo= feels like the opaque datatype might be numeric, and cheap after all 16:57:57 how does string= make you feel? 16:58:06 good point! 16:58:14 also, = coerces, so i don't know if it's especially cheap. 16:58:16 it's the -= that we use, char= 16:59:26 well, for someone like meself who dables in IEEE (short|single)-float, i don't worry about = :-) 17:00:04 inetic [n=inetic@chello082119124030.chello.sk] has joined #lisp 17:00:12 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 17:00:28 -!- nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:01:36 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 17:02:13 -!- adeht [n=death@212.150.201.41] has quit ["changing servers"] 17:02:27 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 17:02:46 Xach: have a look at: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/27_ag.htm 17:02:56 hi guys, I'm trying to use slime but can't get my head around it very well :-\, the lisp file contains a (defpackage ...) line, now when I do C-c C-k it compiles it but when I change that line by adding stuff to the (:use ...) expression and try to compile it again slime responds with "; compiling file /.../my-file.lisp" and does nothing else 17:04:04 ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has joined #lisp 17:05:38 I guess REPL got frozen or something like that, maybe I need to restart it somehow? 17:06:06 inetic: i can't say i often have a problem like that, and i use slime a lot. 17:06:28 inetic: does C-c C-u or C-c C-c get you unstuck? 17:07:39 Xach, [search] alright. well, the search box is neat anyway! 17:07:40 -!- tic [n=tic@83.218.67.122] has quit ["leaving"] 17:07:57 locklace, no, it doesn't seem to :-\ 17:08:05 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Yay! I'm a Llama again!"] 17:08:43 nikodemus pasted "hairy nested stack allocation workingness!" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69702 17:08:46 inetic: when neither of those work, the only way out i've found is M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp 17:09:41 locklace: thanks, I was trying those C-c C-u command right now and CPU started to work on 100% 17:10:08 is anyone familiar with a data structure that would allow efficient storage and searching of intervals together with repeitions? 17:10:12 ie. I have intervals like "from 2008-11-04 11:00-12:00, repeated every tuesday until 2008-12-04", and now want to do queries such as "what intervals are active on 2008-11-11?" 17:10:28 tic [n=tic@c83-249-197-248.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:11:04 locklace, that restart seems to have worked (and the temperature CPU temeprature goes down). thanks ! 17:11:22 mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-58-104.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 17:11:54 inetic: well, it's not really an ideal solution ;) if you can duplicate the problem you should probably report it to the slime folks 17:12:21 it helps if you are using the latest slime and a recent or most recent version of your implementation. 17:12:38 disumu [n=disumu@f053001070.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:13:18 how can i make sure a generic function is called with only objects of a certain class? 17:13:38 Xach, I read that I should use the latest CVS version, so I checked out a fresh copy today, cheers 17:13:46 wait, i think the arguments are type names? 17:14:39 fusss: what does "make sure" mean? 17:14:52 fusss: what do you want to happen if it doesn't? 17:15:16 fusss: are you doing something different from (defgeneric my-generic-function ((foo type-of-foo) (bar type-of-bar)) ...) ? 17:15:46 oh crap, never mind. "generic function" is just an api spec template. if you don't have a method that accepts type then nothing gets done 17:16:11 well, NO-APPLICABLE-METHOD gets called. 17:16:20 yeah 17:16:22 oops, that should have read "defmethod" ;) 17:16:26 and it's more about classes than types... 17:16:35 my bad. 17:17:01 *fusss* smacks' Keene's book on his forehead, nothing happens, book too think to affect necessary change in forehead 17:17:08 s/think/thin/ 17:17:26 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 17:17:27 *effect 17:17:45 it is one of those rare occasions when you should, in fact, use "effect" 17:18:14 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:18:43 bougyman [i=bougyman@bougyman.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:53 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:19:52 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.164.68] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:30 yah 17:22:21 -!- ejs [n=eugen@nat.ironport.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:24:33 -!- adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has quit ["changing servers"] 17:24:58 adeht [n=death@nessers.org] has joined #lisp 17:27:36 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:29:09 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:31:27 kmkaplan_ [n=kmkaplan@2001:660:3003:8:0:0:4:68] has joined #lisp 17:31:53 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:32:34 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:660:3003:8:0:0:4:68] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:33:28 bpt__ [n=bpt@rrcs-70-63-155-2.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:33:43 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.164.174] has joined #lisp 17:34:06 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 17:34:13 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net1.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 17:34:29 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@wireless.its.sdu.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:36:40 -!- _Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 17:37:12 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 17:39:54 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:55 -!- sqvirt [n=sqvirt@c-24-16-244-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:40:25 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-212-000.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:41:20 hello 17:42:42 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:43:14 -!- ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.66.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:44:08 ebzzry [n=rmm@124.217.66.240] has joined #lisp 17:44:30 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:45:32 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 17:45:34 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:48:05 uncle_dan [n=hi@ip254-66-132.cust.bit.net.au] has joined #lisp 17:48:13 -!- uncle_dan [n=hi@ip254-66-132.cust.bit.net.au] has left #lisp 17:53:59 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-2-148-172.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:54:23 yowtza trebor_home 17:55:49 rme [n=rme@pool-70-106-128-43.chi01.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:55:49 kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has joined #lisp 17:57:40 -!- disumu [n=disumu@f053001070.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["..."] 17:58:30 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:59:53 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 18:03:55 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 18:07:28 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:07:35 -!- splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has quit ["A new day dawns. Somewhere, I'm sure."] 18:07:43 i REALLY need OBJECT= generic equality test, using my project's initals, ATK=, just looks ambigious 18:07:58 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:08:57 josemanuel [n=josemanu@197.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:09:34 -!- mikesch [n=axel@xdsl-87-79-58-104.netcologne.de] has quit [] 18:10:31 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 18:10:42 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.149.199] has joined #lisp 18:11:44 -!- bpt__ [n=bpt@rrcs-70-63-155-2.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:12:08 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:12:17 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 18:12:30 dcl [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 18:14:35 -!- gilberth [n=gilbert@d124035.adsl.hansenet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:14:52 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.187.132] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:15:05 fusss: there's always mw-equiv 18:15:18 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.164.174] has quit [] 18:15:20 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:15:29 from what package? 18:15:47 oh 18:15:48 http://www.cliki.net/MW-EQUIV has some info 18:16:20 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:17:02 you know something is good when you discover it independently 18:17:10 or just needed :-P 18:18:26 another fine tool for me to poop^H^H^H^Hbuild on! 18:19:39 *fusss* ewww (defmethod foo-p ((f foo)) (typep f 'foo)) DUH 18:19:50 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279403734.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 18:20:00 matley [n=matley@83.224.218.224] has joined #lisp 18:20:13 -!- antgreen [n=green@localhost.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:21:35 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:21:49 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a707ac34bed7581b] has joined #lisp 18:22:32 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:24:00 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 18:24:23 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:53 antgreen [n=green@localhost.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:17 nikodemus`: fyi, it seems like sbcl head was more fragile than my 1.0.12.2. there's something fishy with the gc, head was dying at about 1.4 gigs of dynamic heap, while i've seen bigger heap sizes with the old sbcl and they could bear much more sessions. i *think* i've not seen AVER's on head though. i didn't have much nerve/energy/time to investigate this, so take it all with a piece of salt... 18:26:46 we'll see tomorrow how the old version will keep up. we'll have at least as much load as today... 18:27:11 nasty, that 18:27:15 FZ [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/fz] has joined #lisp 18:27:33 some new lessons of today: don't call eval without sb-ext:*evaluator-mode* :interpret due to that "Big Compiler Lock" 18:28:23 i would have expected just the opposite due to reduced conservativism 18:28:33 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-176-18-217.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 18:28:58 another headache was a regular (about 3-4 times today) deadlock due to partly a thinko in our codebase, but it's triggered by sug-serve-event hanging on a socket (which is probably broken, or closed by the client) 18:30:01 when head stalled, it was 100% on cpu (which means 1 thread), and once i've quickly gdb-d such a process and i've seen some gc something on the c stack 18:30:22 hm 18:30:26 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 18:31:15 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:31:16 s-s-e was called from a write-sequence call, it was a file serving or a generated pdf serving action 18:31:17 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.4] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:31:27 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:30 actually, one thing that comes to mind is that if you have things which *should* be pinned, it might be that they were accidentally pinned earlier due to insanely large allocation regions 18:31:54 where "you" could an SBCL internal bit as well, of course 18:32:39 that means ffi code, right? i don't think we use any ffi ourselves through libs. (no ssl, no graphviz, no iolib, no zlib...) 18:32:46 and now if they are not, and get moved by the GC and subsequently a foreign call stomps on heap -> badness 18:32:49 yes, ffi. ok 18:32:56 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:33:32 after the first deaths, i've added an (sb-ext:gc :full t) to be called every 2 minutes, but that didn't help much 18:33:54 you used to run 1.0.12, right? 18:34:00 yes 18:34:21 the released version, or .something? 18:34:48 ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has joined #lisp 18:35:06 and after the 12:00 food-break, i was soon starting the old image, and it stayed alive mostly. i think the load wasn't much lower... 18:35:07 "1.0.12.2" 18:35:35 what kind of compiler policy do you use? 18:35:36 i mean as nodes died after twelve 18:35:50 nothing, default 18:36:06 maybe i should try a (safety 2) tomorrow? 18:36:32 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:36:54 but i need the speed too, because when people get annoyed and start clicking like crazy all around then we have loads of 6 sometimes (on 4 cores) 18:37:13 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:37:42 i think unless thinking hard produces a good potential cause for the regression even a partial bisection would be good 18:37:57 (10 months is a lot of commits to stare at...) 18:38:41 unfortunately i need the biggest safety these days, which seems to be 1.0.12.2 with one-or-two daily restarts 18:39:23 but i'll definitely set up a test that is mimicing the read-world usage as soon as i have some breadth 18:39:49 expect nasty bug-reports in the following months... ;) 18:40:00 and maybe (hopefully) even some patches 18:40:03 i'll let you know if i come up with potential culprits that might be easy to eliminate as causes 18:41:20 just checking: you have the exact same features on both new and old? 18:41:25 if i had at least a non-useless proxy instead of the apache2 balancer, i could quickly isolate a dead node for inspection. but currently this crap is redirecting all the new users to the dead nodes because there's no traffic on them... bah 18:41:37 yes, :sb-thread only 18:41:50 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 18:42:39 do you use stack allocation? 18:43:20 tic_ [n=tic@c83-249-198-47.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:43:33 we use a zillion of libs, and our libs have one or two (declare (dynamic-extent ...)) here and there 18:43:56 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-31-225.kosnet.ru] has quit ["Love."] 18:43:58 silenius [n=jl@e178051166.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:44:11 the most stressed code comes from cl-pdf, cl-typesetting, ucw, yaclml, contextl 18:44:16 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 18:44:32 ...postmodern, cl-rdbms, cl-perec 18:45:02 and we stress PCL also, with custom metaclasses and svuc and a lot of generics 18:45:26 did you or your libs use sb-c::stack-allocate-... declarations? i'm particularly thinking about stack-allocate-vector and stack-allocate-value-cells 18:46:29 ok, i have a theory that could blow up the amount you cons by a large factor 18:46:29 anyways, i'm just trying to provide some background for later consideration when a bug comes up. i'm not hoping to solve this in the next days... 18:46:31 *attila_lendvai* looks 18:47:15 since 1.0.16.29 value cells are not stack allocated for user code, unless user code dips into internals and says loudly "i know what i am doing" 18:47:53 and since 1.0.19.7 the manner in which you *can* get stack allocated value cells has changed 18:47:59 no match for "sb-c.*stack-allocate" in .lisp files in our entire workspace 18:48:41 -!- matley [n=matley@83.224.218.224] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:48:43 -!- tic [n=tic@c83-249-197-248.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:49:29 a quick hack would be to replace all DYNAMIC-EXTENT declarations with TRULY-DYNAMIC-EXTENT, which gets the same kind of happy-go-lucky behaviour as 1.0.12 had by default for value cells 18:49:51 that is, SB-INT:TRULY-DYNAMIC-EXTENT 18:49:52 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 18:50:05 re 18:50:13 derekv [n=derek@noogenesis.resnet.mtu.edu] has joined #lisp 18:50:14 nikodemus`: hmm, what is the rationale for the 1.0.16.29 change? 18:50:27 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AD0D9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:50:29 workaround for a bug in dx value cells 18:50:31 there are numerous dynamic-extent allocations 18:50:41 s/allocations/declarations/ 18:51:22 right -- which i why i figured doing search & replace gloablly might be faster than eyeballing them to see if they want stack allocated value cells 18:52:11 locklace: see bug 419 18:52:33 hah, which has a typo 18:52:38 -!- bougyman [i=bougyman@bougyman.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:52:42 "Note: as of SBCL 1.0.26.29 this bug no longer affects user code, as" 18:52:48 back to the future, indeed 18:53:20 nikodemus`: but this should only rise the heap traffic and also make things safer, right? i think the problem wasn't too much allocation, because i remember to see larger dynamic-space-sizes with old sbcl (or, hm, maybe the lack of dynamic-extent puts more stress on the copying gc?) 18:54:24 yes: if something used to get DX value cells and now doesn't, that means more heap traffic and more work for the GC 18:54:49 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:54:52 but i take your point re. heap-sizes 18:56:53 could be that due to lack of DX the generations are more mixed up, which requires more extra linux process heap space for the copying gc, which kills the node even with smaller lisp heaps. but just wild guessing here... 18:57:49 wow, 30 people working at 8pm. remember, this is for the government... :) 18:58:52 mejja [n=user@c-6bbae555.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:59:02 luckily the 9 nodes, with 4 cores each, can serve them... :D 18:59:25 -!- antgreen [n=green@localhost.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:59:28 *attila_lendvai* probably needs some rest... 18:59:37 -!- tic_ is now known as tic 19:03:17 antgreen [n=green@74.210.24.192] has joined #lisp 19:03:42 -!- lieven_ [n=lieven@ip-213-49-240-62.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:04:45 -!- derekv [n=derek@noogenesis.resnet.mtu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:05:15 attila_lendvai: here's a simple thing that should help figuring out what is going on. grab TIME output around requests for both old and new SBCL to see if amount of consing is growing, or if it just GC time that is going thru the roof (or what) 19:07:04 attila_lendvai: good lord, you need 36 cores to serve 30 people? 19:07:17 time to go home -> 19:07:29 oh, that's a good idea. the only problem is that with this old ucw based codebase it's not trivial to add a time call anywhere. but i'll keep that in mind, thanks! 19:07:54 ths [n=ths@X7e30.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 19:09:03 hefner: there are 500+ of them at daylight. and remember, this is lisp and the codebase went in production in 3 month after the first meeting... :) 19:09:20 attila_lendvai: well, you can grab the info directly if you dig a bit deeper (get-bytes-consed) 19:09:37 attila_lendvai: I look forward to reading your SBCL success story, then. 19:09:41 *hefner* goes off to vote 19:09:47 bougyman [n=bougyman@bougyman.com] has joined #lisp 19:09:49 Vote yellow! 19:10:15 the number is global, though -- so multiple threads confuse the issue, but some sort of trends should be visible 19:10:18 *attila_lendvai* needs to write a few data extracts 19:10:30 there is also *gc-run-time* 19:10:34 i can run these tests locally 19:10:39 *nikodemus`* goes home, really this time :) 19:10:45 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:11:54 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:12:22 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 19:19:34 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:20:16 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 19:20:54 bpt__ [n=bpt@rrcs-70-63-155-2.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:22:24 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 19:25:47 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 19:25:54 -!- egn [n=egn@c-76-25-206-124.hsd1.co.comcast.net] has quit ["rebooting"] 19:28:39 *fusss* hopes his house doesn't get raided after the voting is over 19:28:45 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:29:37 how may I retreieve multiple return values from a function? I've heard something about multiple-bind? 19:29:41 my neighbors are on the brink of physical violence over politics 19:29:58 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:30:01 bertskert: multiple-value-bind 19:30:13 bertskert: (multiple-value-bind (value-1 value-2 ...) (f ...) ) 19:30:28 or you can do multiple-value-list, if you just want a single list result 19:31:46 the /cl/ stuff at http://l1sp.org/search/value has some hints 19:31:57 *Xach* should add a way to show only a certain prefix 19:32:11 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["  "] 19:32:30 so (multiple-value-bind (value-1 value-2 ...) (f ...) ) will load return values in value-1 etc. ? 19:32:52 Xach: like ../cl/search/value ? 19:33:32 something like that 19:33:50 fusss: ##politics 19:34:34 bertskert: Yes. You can use them inside the multiple-value-bind. 19:34:39 *hefner* didn't realize multiple-value-list was so controversial 19:34:45 :-P 19:35:30 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 19:35:32 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 19:36:46 -!- ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has quit [Client Quit] 19:36:55 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-123.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 19:38:52 Xach: probably you also need some limits, because search results for "e" are huge 19:39:29 laterz 19:39:31 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.17/2008082909]"] 19:39:59 stassats: probably 19:40:08 -!- dmitry_vk [n=dvk@91.144.141.2] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:46:59 Could someone give me a clue at how to define slot-value-using-class methods correctly? My definitions compile just fine, but I can't get them invoked via (slot-value...) 19:47:53 davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:50:17 Would (defmethod slot-value-using-class (class (object pcl) slot) be called for every (slot-value pcl-instance 'slotname)? 19:52:09 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47FA4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:52:38 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@220.253-199-221.VIC.netspace.net.au] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:53:13 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:53:50 Uh-oh. 19:56:29 Uh-oh? 19:56:40 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47FA4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:57:02 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47FA4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:57:05 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47FA4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:57:30 Yeah, trying a short test program on my slug. 19:57:43 gilberth [n=gilbert@d060208.adsl.hansenet.de] has joined #lisp 19:57:55 You know, int main(void) { asm("bkpt #0"); return 0; } 19:57:58 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47FA4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:05 And guess what it doesn't do. 19:58:27 It doesn't do anything! No crash, no clean exit, just sits there! 19:58:53 For more fun, the same happens when running under gdb! 19:59:07 I do a stepi, and it just sits there. 19:59:16 that's lame 19:59:27 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.249.250] has joined #lisp 20:01:37 Now, I know that I don't really need trap-causing instructions to make SBCL work, even for INTERNAL-ERROR stuff, but still. 20:01:39 It's lame. 20:03:10 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp435.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 20:07:35 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:07:54 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47371.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:11:22 nyef: magic sigsegv? 20:12:32 Maybe, but I still contend that SBCL uses these traps as function calls with special calling conventions. 20:13:32 'sides, magic sigsegv would take two instructions and require a free register. 20:15:09 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:15:22 nyef: isn't there an clean break instruction instead ? 20:15:41 lhz: You mean like the BKPT breakpoint instruction? 20:16:15 A quick look at libc.so.6 in gdb shows that SWI is being used for syscalls, which is what I expected... 20:16:30 -!- joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has quit ["leaving"] 20:17:08 how is abort() implemented in libc? 20:17:18 Oh, and gdb can establish its own breakpoints... 20:18:04 -!- silenius [n=jl@e178051166.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:18:06 Looks like calls to sigaction, sigprocmask and raise, among other junk. 20:18:10 nyef: by the way, there are much beefier ARM-based NAS systems out there that might make better development machines 20:18:56 chandler: Yes, but this one only cost about $100 about a year ago, and I happen to have it sitting here... 20:19:05 Fair enough. 20:19:29 -!- tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2C016.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:19:59 topo [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has joined #lisp 20:25:56 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:27:42 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:29:20 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:28 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:35:43 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 20:38:06 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:38:17 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:39:27 At least sigsegv appears to be "normal". 20:40:54 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:42:32 will indirecting through r0 get you a SIGSEGV? 20:42:58 nyef: thread pointer + constant? 20:43:23 pkhuong: Assuming threads, maybe. 20:43:34 housel: No, r0 is a GPR, not wired-zero. 20:45:01 wouldn't an illegal instruction suffice ? 20:45:04 there's always the darwin hack with illegal instructions. 20:45:36 Not according to the architecture manual. 20:48:21 Essentially, any illegal instruction is explicitly either UNPREDICTABLE or UNDEFINED, and any given implementation can define such instructions. 20:48:21 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 20:48:28 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:48:30 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 20:52:26 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #lisp 20:52:51 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:29 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:55:36 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:59:24 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 21:01:56 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:21 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-123.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 21:09:31 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb856c.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:10:53 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9c11d2c6dfe1d21d] has joined #lisp 21:12:40 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.249.250] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:14:31 lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:50 if I call a multiple-value-bind within another one, will the outer ones variables be available inside the inner ones body-form? 21:15:05 obviously, yes 21:15:11 it's a lexical variable, after all 21:15:19 lexical? 21:15:19 unless they are shadowed, of course 21:15:36 bertskert, have you read PCL yet? 21:15:42 bertskert, mvb is just like any other binding form in that respect 21:15:43 no, not completely 21:15:49 okay 21:16:50 m-v-b === (multiple-value-call (lambda (x y z) (list x y z)) 21:16:50 (values-list '(foo bar baz))) 21:17:16 weirdo: not quite. &optional arguments. 21:17:25 yeah 21:17:41 and an ignored &rest argument 21:20:24 would it be bad formating to place an if-structure inside a parameter in a function call? or should I build a structure and call the function "many times"? 21:20:46 bertskert: No, it is not bad style at all. 21:20:53 okay =) 21:23:39 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:23:43 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:25:27 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-251-185-93.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:26:26 syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:26:29 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:29:13 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:29:21 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:33:04 -!- Modius [n=Modius@adsl-68-91-192-29.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 21:33:27 ferada [n=ferada@e179235015.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 21:36:45 does by any chance someone know clim good enough to tell me why some of the commands in this http://pastebin.com/d644855ba are inactive? it's from a walkthrough on cliki 21:37:07 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #lisp 21:39:05 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 21:40:21 without running it, I'm going to say because not all of the commands are in the correct command table 21:41:54 or probably that menubar command table has to explicitly inherit menu-command-table (just linking the menus together isn't sufficient) 21:41:57 something like that. 21:43:04 look at how it's done in mcclim/Apps/Listener/listener.lisp, it's slightly different. 21:43:20 ah thanks, i'll look there 21:45:02 if I want to send two parameters in a function call and I want to use an if-structure on them, how do I return them so that they are passed as two parameters? can I use (value ...) ? 21:45:35 ex. (f (if (...) (value a b) (value b a))) 21:45:47 *values ofc 21:46:05 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:46:10 you can use (multiple-value-call #'f (if (...) (values a b) (values b a))), yes 21:46:31 i've used stuff like that, but rarely. it gets a bit ugly. 21:47:18 more often, particularly if there are more than those parameters, I've flet the the thing so that it only took those two parameters, but you're still back to (if (...) (f a b) (f b a)) 21:47:24 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:47:25 you think I should set up two different calls then? I have an if--structure already on another argument though 21:47:39 or multiple value bind them outside the call 21:48:05 bertskert: whatever looks better. 21:48:25 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-65-113.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:49:46 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:50:42 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:00 or I could build them up with let and then call the function using new variables?.. 21:51:04 syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 21:51:27 paste the code and maybe we can offer style suggestions 21:51:46 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:51:47 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:51:50 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 21:51:59 amnesiac_ [n=amnesiac@charanda.shochu.sandino.net] has joined #lisp 21:52:10 bert pasted "fg" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69716 21:52:20 here:http://paste.lisp.org/display/69716 21:52:23 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:52:44 sorry names and comments are in swedish.. 21:53:08 horrible language 21:53:17 hah, why is that? 21:53:18 nämen 21:53:21 yeah 21:54:07 Ah! Heh. The exception handling ABI doesn't define any specific exceptions... Which means that mapping things like sigsegv to exceptions is purely a language-runtime or application thing. 21:54:22 bertskert: a total kludge made up of scandinavian, germanic, french, and modern English. 21:54:40 so, what's English? :-) 21:54:45 haha 21:54:48 nyef, mapping signals to exceptions looks like a bad thing. 21:55:05 exceptions are meant for synchronous processing. 21:55:21 xach, what do you think of my styling? 21:55:39 chandler: same kludge but a different result. 21:55:53 (now, indeed some signals are used in synchronous situations... just hope nobody kills you) 21:55:59 bertskert: not good 21:56:03 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslch035.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 21:56:15 shoudl I restructure it all? 21:56:44 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslch035.osnanet.de] has left #lisp 21:56:44 Fare: Using signals for synchronous events looks like a bad thing from my perspective. 21:57:01 bertskert: the swedish makes it somewhat hard for me to read. in lisp, descriptive names are often used and improve clarity. the language barrier makes that a problem for me. also, your formatting and indentation are off, so even if you used english words, it would be a little hard to read. 21:57:02 nyef, blame UNIX 21:57:12 I do. Quite freely, I assure you. 21:57:44 I'm not sure where to place the blame for the behavior of the only software breakpoint instruction available on this machine, though. 21:57:49 I use the same indention as allegro does I think.. but should I make it more C like? but still keeping all ))) at one row? 21:58:17 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:58:17 bertskert: i don't think you are. your indentation for multiple-value-bind is inconsistent, and "if" is also indented unusually 21:58:17 nyef: did you check the kernel sources? 21:58:29 housel: Was just thinking about looking for them. 21:59:04 bertskert: how long have you been using CL? the code is not bad, although the IFs are indented elisp rather than CL style and the ; comments should be ;; 21:59:05 xach, could you please paste some code you've written, preferable some bigger function? then I could see better what they mean with formating.. 21:59:11 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@68-116-203-246.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has quit [] 21:59:34 hefner, about 1 month.. ok I'll change it =) 21:59:44 bertskert: If you are using Emacs with SLIME, the indentation would look right 21:59:47 minion: tell bertskert about SLIME 21:59:47 bertskert: have a look at SLIME: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/SLIME 21:59:48 and I don't understand (if (före-klockslag)) at all :) 22:00:11 Emacs is baad.. I really dislike it =) 22:00:14 minion: tell bertskert about paredit 22:00:15 bertskert: direct your attention towards paredit: a set of Emacs commands, with a minor mode for convenient access to them, for editing balanced S-expressions and a number of higher-level operations on S-expressions, at ; see also the #paredit channel 22:00:18 bertskert: Get over it. 22:00:42 bertskert: I have to go now, sorry. Maybe a swede can help more. 22:00:57 xach, can't you just paste code? 22:01:20 or could anyone paste some well-formated code with big structures? 22:01:23 Not me! I'm practially off to bed. 22:01:29 okay =) 22:01:43 hefner: http://tinyurl.com/5nbmnf 22:02:11 haha 22:02:20 I'm impressed. 22:02:37 now everyone can read it! ;) 22:02:56 bertskert: just look through here, there are plenty of examples: http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node1.html 22:04:43 bertskert: The sensible indentation is the one which Emacs produces with SLIME. Really, it is the best tool out there for working with Lisp code, so I really strongly suggest you put preconceptions or prior experience aside and try it anew. 22:04:51 I'll amend my "code is not bad" to exclude the insane and nonsensical bits, like the illegal IF and the odd mass of stuff inside of a call to "same-free-periods" 22:05:32 chandler, ok, you've convinced me 22:06:02 _Rui_ [n=lulz@a213-22-54-167.cpe.netcabo.pt] has joined #lisp 22:06:22 -!- _Rui_ [n=lulz@a213-22-54-167.cpe.netcabo.pt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:09:19 Good night! 22:10:26 Good night beach! 22:12:12 -!- FZ [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/fz] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.17/2008082909]"] 22:12:39 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 22:18:33 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 22:18:56 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 22:21:11 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-212-000.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the 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quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:33:19 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:34:34 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-a707ac34bed7581b] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:48:00 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:48:21 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:49:59 -!- ferada [n=ferada@e179235015.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["leaving"] 22:51:18 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl9-101-111.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 22:51:52 -!- dcl is now known as spiderbyte 22:55:30 disumu [n=disumu@p57A27924.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:23 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:57:38 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 23:02:17 -!- lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:03:47 -!- kib2_ [n=chatzill@bd137-1-82-228-159-28.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 23:04:12 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 23:04:43 lambda-avenger [n=roman@adsl-63-197-150-112.dsl.snfc21.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:27 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:06:37 -!- davazp [n=user@72.Red-88-6-205.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:06:37 -!- Hun [n=Hun@pd956be5d.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:08:10 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:08:17 burngreg [n=greg@203-109-192-34.static.ihug.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:53 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 23:13:37 bertskert: i have a lot of code at http://xach.com/lisp/ 23:13:43 well, some code anyway. 23:13:51 http://weitz.de/ has a lot of code that is much better 23:13:53 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9c11d2c6dfe1d21d] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 23:14:21 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A27924.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:14:28 -!- bpt__ [n=bpt@rrcs-70-63-155-2.midsouth.biz.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:16 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp435.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 23:15:54 disumu [n=disumu@p57A27924.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:16:53 -!- burngreg [n=greg@203-109-192-34.static.ihug.net] has quit ["Download Gaim: http://gaim.sourceforge.net/"] 23:17:31 bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslch035.osnanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:18:01 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-212-000.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:04 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:18:11 burngreg [n=greg@203-109-192-34.static.ihug.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:12 -!- bakkdoor [n=bakkdoor@xdslch035.osnanet.de] has left #lisp 23:18:20 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-212-000.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:02 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:19:50 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:19:52 Got it! SWI #0x9f0001 is what the system expects for breakpoint goodness. 23:20:07 Kindof defeats the point of having a BKPT instruction, though. 23:20:44 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:21:08 (Well, not entirely, but BKPT should also cause SIGTRAP, not just sit there.) 23:25:40 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:27:57 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:30:04 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-65-113.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:30:20 ausente [n=id@201-92-76-157.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:30:44 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:31:49 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 23:32:57 There we go, port-log.txt updated. 23:33:20 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 23:34:34 -!- bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 23:34:42 twopoint718 [n=chris@adsl-76-208-67-150.dsl.mdsnwi.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:34:48 bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:34:52 -!- bertskert [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 23:35:47 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-212-000.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 23:36:13 yCrazyEdd [n=CrazyEdd@220-253-146-77.VIC.netspace.net.au] has joined #lisp 23:38:46 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-212-000.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:34 jao [n=user@72.Red-79-155-244.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:40 _sledge_ [n=chris@CPE001c109fb260-CM001ac319195a.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:46:12 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 23:46:43 -!- _sledge_ is now known as sledge 23:48:22 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:50:35 rajesh [n=rajesh@nylug/member/rajesh] has joined #lisp 23:50:50 cky_ [n=cky@202-74-211-194.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 23:51:02 -!- yCrazyEdd is now known as CrazyEddy 23:52:09 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:53:08 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:53:50 -!- nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl9-101-111.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:54:12 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska176142.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 23:57:22 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 23:57:47 nurv101 [n=askmefor@bl9-101-111.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 23:58:07 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-123.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 23:58:56 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:59:49 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-212-123.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp