00:00:37 smithzv: (format nil "~,,,,,,'eE" 42.13) 00:00:59 Oh, single quote on... 00:01:10 I was going crazy... 00:01:25 thank you very much 00:01:31 It would take some effort to make this interface less intuitive :-) 00:01:44 yep 00:06:20 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 00:07:35 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.248] has joined #lisp 00:07:50 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:07:55 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.248] has joined #lisp 00:16:42 Somewhat offtopic. but is there a good book on databases that is lispy? 00:17:24 Failing that, does anyone know of a very formal/rigorous text? 00:18:55 Jarv2 [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 00:19:51 -!- Jarvellis [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:19:53 -!- Jarv2 is now known as Jarvellis 00:23:50 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:25:53 -!- topo is now known as topito-away 00:27:42 Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.1.81.218] has joined #lisp 00:29:22 -!- envi_office2 [i=envi@203.109.25.100] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:30:47 mogunus: you could begin with codd's paper and books. I believe the ACM released one of his books on relational algebra for free. 00:31:06 You should be able to get it through your U. 00:31:08 -!- topito-away [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has left #lisp 00:31:13 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:33:00 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@duan145-125-dhcp.colorado.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:34:16 pkhuong: awesome, thanks. All the database courses in my uni seem... stupid, is why I ask. light on theory and heavy on applications with java. 00:34:33 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084213.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:35:00 Jacob_H__ [n=jacob@92.1.70.26] has joined #lisp 00:35:01 mogunus: you could try Database Systems: The Complete Book 00:35:12 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:36:16 00:36:35 gonzojive: that looks pretty good, thanks. 00:36:42 echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has joined #lisp 00:37:04 that books and codd's 1990 book should be more than enough to keep me busy for an independant study. 00:37:39 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@p4148-ipbf3203marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Instain to the do way"] 00:37:41 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.248] has quit [] 00:38:51 -!- alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Bye!"] 00:39:10 alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:43:23 -!- Jacob_H__ [n=jacob@92.1.70.26] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:43:28 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-07601ae947c5fb96] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:46:20 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.173.0] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:46:41 i'm sure stonebraker likes himself enough to make some of his stuff free. 00:48:27 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:49:00 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.241.149] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:49:49 -!- Jacob_H_ [n=jacob@92.1.81.218] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:50:16 elurin [n=user@81.213.203.109] has joined #lisp 00:58:28 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-2-35.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:59:02 -!- rpg is now known as rpg|away 01:00:45 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:04 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.222.104] has joined #lisp 01:06:42 hi 01:07:16 nobody here but us chickens 01:07:17 -!- ciscbrain [n=eugen@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:08:10 -!- tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2FA1D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:22:43 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:23:40 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-0.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:06 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:35 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.15.172] has joined #lisp 01:34:39 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 01:36:20 marti_nl [n=user@c-76-120-244-152.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:37:42 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-195.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:39:23 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:42:26 ccl-logbot [n=ccl-logb@master.clozure.com] has joined #lisp 01:42:26 01:42:26 -!- names: ccl-logbot kpreid marti_nl pstickne lemonodor sellout gigamonk` jtoy impulse32 elurin alexsuraci echo-area Jarvellis b4|hraban disumu radetsky yangsx isomer`` abeaumont madnificent Adamant birdsbite O_4 mr_ank olicz proq dmiles_afk pinterface appletizer fe[nl]ix timor101 abend gonzojive rpg|away a-s BrianRice _deepfire puddingpimp eirik joga_ defn_ hugod djinni` jollygood_______ herbieB pok guenther__ l4ndfo tarbo p8m kmkaplan thijso specbot 01:42:26 -!- names: mornfall Bucciarati lucca jrockway sbok Cel Tristam esden Maghnus Patzy mgr sabetts djkthx brandelune jajcloz wchogg cracki dialtone replor Soulman Guest53748 nowhere_man kidd1 froog_ ghost77 H4ns1 Jasko kleppari Krystof jao ths chrisdone bpt JuanDaugherty xjrn stassats lispm x6j8x ug nenorbot hugo S11001001 vixey spiderbyte tritchey aking NoorDextor rme Fare kidd2 V-ille jmbr_ wgl sohail mathrick ia merlincorey tessier daniel madsj xreyes_ 01:42:26 -!- names: Xof spiaggia segv_ knobo vanLiempt enigmus photon cky xinming DrTilt t schme dash_ pchrist huangjs benny ``Erik ivanst_ seelenquell_ Modius__ thedonvaughn fisxoj mogunus bedlam matthew` felipe araujo Partyzant ineiros gloaming rlpowell kreuter olejorgenb hypno hsaliak brickhazel mcxx slash_ lnostdal ushdf cmm eno nullwork_ nullwork myrkraverk blx creddy intrados rdd Khisanth Zhivago jsimonss enn sykopomp lemoinem locklace fihi09 billstclair 01:42:26 -!- names: vcgomes[away] _8david prip hefner borism boyscared nyef ianmcorvidae r0bby arbscht jeremiah turbo24prg bascule m4thrick Ifur phadthai drewc azuk slyrus johs bougyman sjbach mikezor tltstc yango dboswell DrForr nasloc__ luis kuwabara yahooooo wlr authentic xristos agemo erg minion joshe Riastradh e271 Thas Draggor xan retupmoca _CitizenKane_ keithr dto patmatch Soulman__ froydnj bob_f eevar srcerer rread spacebat bdowning ivarref delYsid Paraselene_ 01:42:26 -!- names: gz antifuchs Aisling sad0ur pkhuong rey_ Buganini qebab Ash emma cods rsynnott jmcphers plutonas _adeht l_a_m chii Fractal Fade dostoyevsky jamesjb rumbleca dublpaws Xach andrerav maskd esden_ _3b mtd fnordus albino zbigniew lisppaste ahaas maxote Eno_ mqt bohanlon esden`away bunz mvilleneuve z0d tic faheem larstobi clog Chrononaut dcrawford foom bfein Adrinael SUNWjoejaxx andrewy jkantz jsnell michaelw xian pragma_ technik jolby chandler 01:42:26 -!- names: dfox Balooga 01:42:38 -!- DrTilt [n=browning@adsl-76-243-208-202.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:43:16 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.15.172] has quit [] 01:44:38 -!- marti_nl [n=user@c-76-120-244-152.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #lisp 01:45:16 ths_ [n=ths@X769c.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 01:45:59 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:39 sudoer [n=jtoy@58.61.221.101] has joined #lisp 01:49:32 wow abcl ran the ansi tests faster than sbcl 141secs vs 151secs 01:50:24 sbcl passed 20 more tests than abcl though 01:50:44 erm 17 more 01:51:32 abcl 48 out of 21702 , sbcl 37 out of 21709 failed 01:52:21 so that might been the time breaker that sbcl actually fullfiled the tests 01:54:03 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:54:17 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:54:47 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:55:18 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:56:11 jso [n=user@151.159.200.15] has joined #lisp 01:57:17 -!- ths [n=ths@X55d9.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:00:11 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.222.104] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:00:59 -!- ug [n=merlin@67.159.169.138] has quit ["leaving"] 02:01:12 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:05:10 -!- eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:05:27 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:05:56 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0FF56.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:05:56 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:06:30 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:55 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has joined #lisp 02:09:38 m7d [n=lriley@99.129.164.69] has joined #lisp 02:09:45 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 02:11:05 -!- tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:11:24 tarbo [n=me@unaffiliated/tarbo] has joined #lisp 02:12:21 -!- vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:16:36 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 02:16:42 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 02:19:02 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 02:20:37 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A26311.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 02:23:55 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 02:34:44 -!- olicz [i=1000@r3r149.net.upc.cz] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:40:22 -!- rpg|away is now known as rpg 02:41:11 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 02:41:30 -!- timor101 [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:42:07 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 02:43:58 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:48:04 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:48:04 jso` [n=user@151.159.200.15] has joined #lisp 02:50:01 -!- jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:50:03 dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 02:50:13 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.15] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:50:40 -!- jso` is now known as jso 02:50:45 Cryovat [i=isis@akuma.no] has joined #lisp 02:50:56 Hi, I'm failing at elementary stuff again :/ 02:51:14 I'm trying to load a file c:\Lisp\stuff.lsp, but it's giving me a file not found 02:51:26 -!- Jarvellis [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:51:45 I'm doing (load "c:\Lisp\stuff.lsp") 02:52:28 Try (load "c:\\Lisp\\stuff.lsp") 02:52:30 Lisp reads that as equivalent to "c:Lispstuff.lsp". 02:52:47 or (load "c:/Lisp/stuff.lsp") 02:53:14 Thanks 02:53:27 Is there some way to tell Lisp to escape every backslash automagically? 02:54:10 Cryovat: backslash *is* the escape character. 02:54:22 I know 02:54:57 I meant more to the effect that every backslash isn't an escape character 02:55:23 Some strings won't be able to be printed readably then 02:55:43 Cryovat: short answer: you don't want to. 02:55:50 Hehe, ok 02:55:52 Thanks 02:56:01 Cryovat: Just use the pathname facility :p 02:56:50 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 02:58:07 -!- lucca [n=lucca@kuu.accela.net] has quit ["."] 02:58:44 lucca [n=lucca@kuu.accela.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:21 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.203.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:00:21 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:00:43 -!- enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 03:01:05 elurin [n=user@81.213.203.109] has joined #lisp 03:01:49 *Fare* is in ecl builder hell 03:02:59 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:06:51 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:06:56 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-141-189.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:21:58 icylisper [n=icylispe@202.88.189.5] has joined #lisp 03:24:02 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:24:31 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:33:46 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 03:37:27 morn' 03:40:12 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:40:57 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-141-189.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:48:29 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-63-218.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:48:35 good morning 03:56:13 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.203.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:57:55 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-0.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:59:15 -!- jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:02:06 So where does one start digging around to port sbcl to the ARM? 04:05:43 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:08:12 schme: You want SBCL to generate native code for the ARM? 04:08:48 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-145-181.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:09:06 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-145-181.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:28 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:15:11 minion: memo for hans: I've been away these last few days .. thanks for fighting the fires of cl-net! 04:15:11 Remembered. I'll tell hans when he/she/it next speaks. 04:15:29 minion: memo for h4ns: I've been away these last few days .. thanks for fighting the fires of cl-net! 04:15:29 Remembered. I'll tell h4ns when he/she/it next speaks. 04:15:56 beach: Well I want SBCL to actually run on ARM, so I assume that implies generating native code for it. 04:16:07 schme: Then you have lots of stuff to think about, such as calling conventions, data rapresentation, garbage collector. 04:16:29 Indeed! 04:16:37 I'm getting fed up with CLISP though ;) 04:17:00 Why is that? 04:17:12 schme: what ARM platform would you target? 04:17:36 To be honest I just woke up an hour ago and my brain is not on straight yet. I distinctly remember something happening yesterday that pissed me off. 04:17:41 (in relation to CLISP) 04:17:59 rme: I'll see.. 04:18:38 pxa270 04:19:18 schme: The best starting point is AFAICS the SBCL powerpc port, the ARM EABI Document from CodeSourcery, a working knowledge of ARM assembler, and a lot of time. 04:19:32 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 04:19:53 Ok. I have two of those atleast. 04:20:11 schme: What device is that chip in? 04:20:15 I'll just have to figure out how to decode ppc assembly I suppose ;) 04:20:24 rme: The zaurii 04:20:38 atleast the last 4 models. 04:20:38 schme: How much RAM does it have? 04:20:57 several megabytes ;) 04:21:12 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit ["rm -rf /home/$USER"] 04:21:28 You will need ~50M for SBCL bootstrapping. 04:21:47 Well worst case scenario I can set up a gigabyte or so swapspace. 04:22:03 Probably a bit less with gengc. 04:23:17 Actually I think it's 64MB RAM. 04:23:31 I'd love to flash that there sbcl-os into it though. 04:23:32 heh 04:24:18 Well great. I'll look into stuff. 04:24:25 *schme* heads off to work. Have a good day #lisp 04:24:36 schme: g'day to ya, schme 04:24:45 and good luck with the port. Sounds exciting :) 04:24:54 rme: specifically it's this device: http://www.mobiletechreview.com/Sharp-Zaurus-C3200.htm 04:24:59 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:25:08 Yes! Sounds like fun :D 04:25:12 we'd like to have a ccl arm port, too. 04:25:41 Hmm.. 04:25:55 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 04:26:04 I remember looking at ccl but there was no x86-32 for me. 04:26:11 Oh well. Time to run away :) 04:32:15 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:34:01 it would probably be possible to base a port on almost all C calls 04:42:59 *slyrus_* is reminded of the old computer science joke about the professor who leaves lecture after a student calls him on the claim that something is trivial and comes back two days later and declare "I was right, it was trivial". 04:43:08 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-63-218.w90-16.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:43:27 jmcphers [n=jmcphers@218.185.108.156] has joined #lisp 04:43:42 -!- joga_ is now known as joga 04:44:45 That's my favorite dodge! "...And the rest is trivial." 04:44:47 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:45:23 I actually think there's a lot of truth in that joke. 04:46:14 Anything that takes less than a week or so of effort to prove is probably trivial. 04:47:31 s/takes/takes me 04:48:42 mogunus: I'm in trouble. 04:48:48 mogunus: ...I don't understand my own code. 04:48:49 D: 04:49:01 sykopomp: That's probably a bad sign. 04:49:09 Lemme see if I can understand your code. 04:49:12 mogunus: http://paste.lisp.org/display/69389 04:49:36 resolve-objects calls resolve-possessives in a tail call, and resolve-possessives calls both resolve-objects (first), followed by resolve-possessives. 04:49:54 oh 04:50:07 and the double-recursion thing is called in a loop 04:50:08 :P 04:50:09 well, it turns out lzw decoding is trivial. getting the details right takes a bit of time though. 04:50:28 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 04:50:58 thrain][ [n=dpn@69.169.148.47.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 04:51:00 sykopomp: what does resolve-objects do? 04:51:55 mogunus: http://paste.lisp.org/display/69389#1 04:52:17 filter-objects just looks at adjectives and determines whether something is worth keeping or not 04:52:37 and get-objects-by-name fetches all objects of a name, within a scope 04:53:46 Why are you querying people's posessions based on NP's? 04:54:11 And what does the owns predicate do? 04:54:23 the noun-phrase objects are the ones that contain an OWNS slot, which the parser determines is something that a possessive referred to 04:54:51 so... mogunus' nose --> noun = "mogunus", owns = "nose" 04:55:03 okay 04:55:07 or rather... owns = noun-phrase, where noun = nose 04:55:09 so, yeah, I understand this. 04:55:33 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0EC4.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:55:35 it works, too, so I can't be completely insane 04:56:03 but I just went back to it after running away for a while, and saw the loop with double recursive calls and kinda glazed over :< 04:56:36 you're combining the owner and the objects 04:56:44 you *seem* to be taking the powerset 04:56:52 no, i'm wrong and stupid 04:56:58 >_> 04:57:02 you're doing owners x objects 04:57:17 I don't see how that's it, either. 04:58:28 what if I say 04:58:36 "mogunus' nose and hair" 04:58:51 the parser will identify hair as a separate object 04:59:04 it splits conjunctions off into new objects 04:59:05 noun = "mogunus" owns = '("nose" "hair") 04:59:33 ? 04:59:42 it's an ambiguity in language, so I chose to make stuff after a conjunction a new noun-phrase 05:00:03 ohhhh 05:00:05 so it would be more noun = "mogunus" owns = "nose", noun = "hair" 05:00:20 oh lord 05:00:32 I need to add pronouns, but once I do you can say 'mogunus' nose and his hair' 05:00:42 sure 05:00:45 binding pronouns is... sickening 05:00:50 but that's definately one noun phrase 05:00:59 you're making it so much harder on yourself splitting them like this 05:01:13 you think so? 05:01:18 it can go either way in natural language 05:01:23 Yes. Very much so. 05:01:26 and I can't tell the difference unless I have context 05:01:34 Yeah. Welcome to hell. 05:01:39 Morning, fellow Lispers. 05:01:48 not just context, semantic knowledge of the concept of what is currently going on 05:02:25 schme, what are you doing with Lisp on that embedded platform? 05:03:05 sykopomp: okay, essentially, what you're doing is transforming the NP 05:03:16 into "mogunus owns his nose and his hair" 05:04:10 notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has joined #lisp 05:04:12 which could be represented as a simple list of the things that mogunus owns instead of having to deal with the syntax tree yet again when you're querying for that he owns 05:04:25 you can deal with this all in syntax. hang on, lemme grab my syntax textbook 05:05:09 mogunus: *points to /q* 05:05:39 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47B8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:56 -!- thrain][ [n=dpn@69.169.148.47.provo.static.broadweave.net] has left #lisp 05:07:52 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:28 notsonerdysunny pasted "defmacro with &rest and &key" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69391 05:09:42 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.209.67] has joined #lisp 05:10:25 Hello Can you please look at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69391 and tell me why the macro with both &rest and &key is not working for the sample call I have there? 05:10:53 *tic* tries macroexpanding. 05:11:56 odd number of elements in keyword/value list. 05:12:10 yes I got that 05:12:29 I have not specified any key for it to read the keys.. 05:12:32 (you could annotate your paste with the error massege and expected output, by the way -- helps debugging) 05:13:41 notsonerdysunny annotated #69391 with "defmacro with &rest and &key-errormessage" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69391#1 05:13:58 Hi tic, 05:14:10 right.. 05:14:34 I would expect the two macros to behave the same way except .. I can decide the type of the sequence in one of them via a parameter 05:14:54 Mhm. I wonder just how &rest interacts with &key. 05:15:11 the only example in the spec is w/ &whole. 05:15:25 hmm.. 05:15:46 I wonder if that's possible. How to distinguish &rest from whatever comes next? 05:15:58 I get your point .. 05:15:59 clhs 3.4.1.4 05:15:59 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_dad.htm 05:16:13 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 05:16:20 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:16:20 "... if &key is specified, there must remain an even number of arguments" 05:16:27 but how would you do what I want to do without using the &rest and &key 05:17:13 don't use a macro, and make the type argument requisite. 05:17:42 pkhuong .. 05:17:45 I didn't get you 05:17:47 .. 05:17:53 I am a newbie to lisp 05:17:54 Yeah, a function would do? 05:18:15 could you help me write one? 05:18:20 Hold. 05:18:29 -!- ths [n=ths@X769c.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:19:35 (defun mytest (seqs &key (ret-type 'list)) (apply #'map ret-type #'+ seqs)) ; maybe? (untested) 05:20:16 notsonerdysunny, you got macros wrong, I think. It seems like you're trying to use them as an aliasing/inlining facility. 05:20:20 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4717B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:17 just make ret-type a required argument. 05:21:59 hmm.. inorder to use the function you wrote .. I would have to do something like .. (mytest (list mylista mylistb mylistc)) but I want to call it like (mytest mylista mylistb mylistc) 05:22:48 -!- Soulman [n=kvirc@62.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:22:53 notsonerdysunny, oh? Then I must've misunderstood the definition of APPLY. I read "args+" as rest. Hm. 05:22:54 yea true .. .. but can I have a default value for a required argument? 05:24:19 Err. Try removing the apply from my definition. Sorry for not testing the code first, I'm a bit sloppy. 05:25:53 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:16 tic that does not help either ... 05:27:29 ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has joined #lisp 05:28:50 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:30:23 OK, let's see 05:30:31 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-117-139.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 05:31:40 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 05:33:50 -!- aja [n=aja@unaffiliated/aja] has quit [""I am going to a commune in Vermont and will deal with no unit of time shorter than a season.""] 05:40:51 notsonerdysunny, sorry, I fail. :/ 05:43:30 Maybe someone else can help out? 05:43:38 (mixing &rest with &key) 05:43:42 notsonerdysunny annotated #69391 with "correct code" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69391#2 05:44:07 Ah, that was the trick. Cool. 05:44:44 Hi tic .. I figured this much adding &allow-other-keys helps .. but there is a constraint that the macro can take only even number of arguments 05:46:14 yah. 05:46:17 binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.163.61] has joined #lisp 05:46:22 tic I think you did help .. thanks for the help ... 05:46:23 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.209.67] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:46:58 notsonerdysunny, no problem. I still wonder if you have to make that a macro. (or is the only way to pass a variable amount of arguments? DEFUN takes a &rest, too) 05:47:42 -!- binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.163.61] has quit [Client Quit] 05:48:45 notsonerdysunny: &rest doesn't work the way you seem to think it does. From 3.4.1.4: "It is permitted to specify both &rest and &key. In this case the remaining arguments are used for both purposes; that is, all remaining arguments are made into a list for the rest parameter, and are also processed for the &key parameters." 05:49:11 so that's why &allow-other-keys works.. But then it'll not /really/ work. 05:50:02 So if you have, say, (mytest 1 2 3 4 :ret-type 'foo), your &rest parameter will be (list 1 2 3 4 'foo). 05:50:07 -!- icylisper [n=icylispe@202.88.189.5] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:52:02 Erm... actually, it'll be (list 1 2 3 4 :ret-type 'foo). 05:52:31 notsonerdysunny: you'll have to parse the rest args manually 05:52:52 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.210.206] has joined #lisp 05:53:51 but I'd recommend using a required arg (defun mytest (ret-type &rest seqs) (apply #'map ret-type #'+ seqs)) 05:54:32 -!- ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-138-56-198.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:54:32 *pinterface* concurs with rottcodd. 05:54:56 ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-138-67-93.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 05:58:35 Thanks rottcodd and pinterface .. 05:58:42 that clarifies things for me .. 06:01:58 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.15] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:03:36 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:04:01 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 06:05:30 -!- notsonerdysunny [n=chatzill@121.243.167.99] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092510]"] 06:06:25 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.210.206] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 06:11:59 c|mell [n=cmell@v113243.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 06:18:43 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["leaving"] 06:20:34 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 06:22:09 milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.251] has joined #lisp 06:24:23 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0FF56.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:24:28 -!- m7d [n=lriley@99.129.164.69] has quit [] 06:28:26 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:33:49 jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 06:34:14 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-15-177.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 06:43:08 benny [n=benny@i577A0ADD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:53:47 -!- milanj [n=milan@212.200.194.251] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 07:01:59 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:03:15 mr_ank_ [n=ank@220-244-42-72.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:04:04 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-61.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 07:06:03 -!- ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has left #lisp 07:08:16 good morning 07:13:18 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 07:16:13 -!- mr_ank [n=ank@220-244-42-72.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:16:21 q/last #abcl 07:19:27 -!- e271 is now known as easye 07:20:40 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:20:45 -!- easye is now known as e271 07:22:33 -!- madsj [n=s062126@hald.gbar.dtu.dk] has quit ["leaving"] 07:34:13 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:38:54 good morning 07:38:57 *yawn* 07:39:25 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 07:44:28 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-30-162.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:45:05 -!- e271 is now known as MrE 07:45:30 -!- MrE is now known as e271 07:45:38 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0FF56.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 07:47:10 -!- e271 [i=[1Xmizzn@panix3.panix.com] has left #lisp 07:51:43 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 07:55:10 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:01:37 brill [n=brill@193.3.8.1] has joined #lisp 08:02:40 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:04:03 vy [n=user@88.224.71.1] has joined #lisp 08:04:46 MisterE [i=[1Xmizzn@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 08:05:43 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:08:54 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 08:09:12 -!- ivarref [n=ivarref@padme.ifi.uio.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:11:26 ivarref [n=ivarref@padme.ifi.uio.no] has joined #lisp 08:12:40 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45E06.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:16:16 hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-170-199.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:21 Spune [n=Spune@c-69-137-224-211.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:26:21 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@v113243.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:27:45 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.211.141] has joined #lisp 08:27:49 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 08:28:05 -!- jmbr_ [n=jmbr@87.223.196.118] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:29:02 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47B8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:30:03 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has joined #lisp 08:31:35 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:32:28 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["sleep"] 08:33:20 -!- mr_ank_ [n=ank@220-244-42-72.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit ["leaving"] 08:33:55 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["go Canada!"] 08:39:24 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:39:26 splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has joined #lisp 08:39:28 morning 08:39:39 tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:40:10 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:42:19 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-15-177.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 08:42:56 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:43:07 c|mell [n=cmell@v113243.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 08:43:51 Soulman [n=kvirc@153.84-49-150.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:47:36 -!- hadronzoo [n=hadronzo@ppp-70-247-170-199.dsl.rcsntx.swbell.net] has quit [] 08:48:02 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 08:48:24 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 08:51:40 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.211.141] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 08:52:12 Good morning. 08:56:45 hello spiaggia 08:57:31 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-239.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 08:58:50 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0ADD.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:59:35 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@58.61.221.101] has quit [] 08:59:40 benny [n=benny@i577A0ADD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:59:46 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.239.72] has joined #lisp 09:00:21 araujo [n=araujo@190.37.174.213] has joined #lisp 09:01:14 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 09:01:28 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-15-177.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 09:01:39 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:01:55 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 09:11:05 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:13:10 dshep [n=user@c-24-7-88-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:55 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.139.1] has joined #lisp 09:16:33 -!- dshep [n=user@c-24-7-88-34.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has left #lisp 09:16:43 -!- MisterE is now known as e271 09:17:43 kiuma_ [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 09:17:43 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 09:25:02 -!- radetsky [n=dan@adsl-76-212-8-201.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:25:48 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-131-066.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:33 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:29:43 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 09:29:44 -!- brill [n=brill@193.3.8.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:33:05 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 09:36:58 -!- tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:39:48 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-137-205.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:40:00 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-15-177.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 09:40:23 trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:53:12 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.6.239.72] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:53:37 -!- echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:55:20 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:57:59 -!- lispm [n=joswig@f054053160.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 09:59:17 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 09:59:24 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:02:58 tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2BE24.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:05:08 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:06:17 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:12:34 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.139.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:13:32 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:15:51 *yawn* 10:22:43 -!- c|mell [n=cmell@v113243.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:23:25 c|mell [n=cmell@v113243.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 10:24:01 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 10:24:17 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 10:24:51 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-096-17.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 10:31:05 Tankado [n=baaa@bzq-79-178-230-149.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 10:39:55 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:41:06 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.196.118] has joined #lisp 10:43:42 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 10:44:06 jesusito [n=jesusito@232.pool85-49-227.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:45:31 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-15-177.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 10:46:14 *lnostdal* is wondering what darcs is up to .. .. stuck at 99% cpu usage for what i thought was a simple pull .. :} 10:48:38 patch resolve bug? 10:51:43 dunno .. rm blah -rf && darcs get http://blah => win 10:51:48 :) 10:52:09 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:52:23 or, (apply #'brute-force :to *any* problem) => win .. heh .. .. ok, back to work 10:54:16 -!- vy [n=user@88.224.71.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:55:54 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:57:00 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:57:23 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:57:42 -!- larstobi [n=larstobi@195.139.173.50] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:57:57 larstobi [n=larstobi@195.139.173.50] has joined #lisp 11:01:44 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:01 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.202.37] has joined #lisp 11:07:03 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:07:42 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 11:10:21 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 11:16:46 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:17:27 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.196.118] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:31:31 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:33:17 Xach: you are a markov-chain-guru, right? 11:33:33 (i mean, do i remember right?) 11:34:11 topo [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has joined #lisp 11:34:23 hello 11:34:29 -!- topo is now known as topito 11:34:44 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:35:01 timor101 [n=icke@w0403.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 11:36:03 trebor_win: possibly you are thinking of me 11:36:40 MHOOO [n=nah@u-4-147.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:36:55 Xof: surely (sorry Xach) ;) 11:37:23 Anyone knows where I can get the excl package? (required by utils-kt, which is in turn required by cells) 11:37:40 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9D35.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 11:37:51 MHOOO: that is a package provided by allegro CL, and by acl-compat for other implementations 11:37:52 Xof: do you have an url/book-title/.. at hand for /easy/ examples/applications of mc/mcmc? 11:38:10 I have no idea if acl-compat is still compatible to these impls, though (: 11:39:13 trebor_win: I would suggest reading Mackay's book on Pattern Recognition, Information Theory and the other one 11:39:35 http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/mackay/itprnn/book.html 11:41:06 Xof: thanks for the link - reading. 11:41:59 antifichs: Hmm. How come cells uses the package when running from CLISP? I though cells worked on CLISP :O 11:42:21 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:44:57 cracki [n=cracki@43-016.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 11:46:30 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 11:46:32 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:46:48 -!- Tankado [n=baaa@bzq-79-178-230-149.red.bezeqint.net] has left #lisp 11:49:32 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:50:53 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 11:54:18 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:56:39 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:56:54 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:57:19 Xof: Thanks for the reference for the book. Now I wonder why I didn't find that book myself (and what else I'm missing). 11:58:04 what do you want to know? :-) 11:58:54 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 11:59:01 Eliza: Why do you think you need to know what you are missing?) 11:59:12 MHOOO: this is exactly why you need the acl-compat package: to give you compatibility to acl on clisp (: 11:59:36 Ahh. Thanks alot. 11:59:42 I'm working on natural language and the probability theory in this book looks like it's part of a larger picture. 12:01:31 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 12:03:31 -!- kiuma_ is now known as kiuma 12:04:05 nikodemus: if this affinity exists in other os-es, then i'd put it in sb-thread with a null impl until people come and fill in the holes 12:05:22 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:05:55 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:10:06 trebor_win: Eliza: What do you think? :-) 12:11:03 Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has joined #lisp 12:11:53 vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 12:12:36 Eliza: Whate else are you missing? 12:13:28 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB9A6D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:13:56 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9D35.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:14:02 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 12:14:32 brill: what are you doing on natural language? do you (or are you allowed to) use lisp at you job? 12:17:17 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 12:17:42 trebor_win: Nope. This is a hobby project of mine. And yes it's done in Lisp. My story is like many others here. We know there is something better than [fill in arbitrary language], but we're not allowed to use it. I'm using java at work. 12:18:12 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@u-4-147.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:19:32 besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 12:20:14 brill: i was able to convince my boss to use lisp. But i have to admit that i am not a computer-scientist just a physicist who writes his own simulation/analyzing-software. 12:20:43 brill: i'm using Clojure for Java :) 12:21:23 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 12:22:49 trebor_win: I suspect that many of us are doing programming in something else, but that we're peddling Lisp every change we get. I would like to see particular languages getting used for particular tasks. Use the tool that is best for solving the task. 12:23:21 jdz: I'm also looking into Clojure. What is your experiences with it? 12:23:30 very good so far. 12:23:50 works as advertised. have not started using the concurrency stuff though. 12:24:43 jdz: I'm fascinated by the fact that Clojure can do concurrency much better than Java while running on jvm. 12:24:58 lunch! 12:25:29 brill: immutable data structures are essential for that. 12:25:50 nikodemus`: Have a nice one. 12:26:01 <_8david> oh look, ILC 2009 12:26:32 Would there be a case where it is an advantage to use the short form of defsetf rather than a function named (setf ...)? 12:27:13 jdz: Yeah, but still it would seem that it's all about syntax. Clujure is sort of proof of that. Java has gotten itself into a syntax trap. Too much history. :-) 12:27:19 spiaggia: http://random-state.net/log/3395558471.html 12:28:10 nikodemus`: Thanks! 12:28:27 brill: the best thing about Clojure is that it allows me to cooperate with Java while not writing a line in Java. 12:29:25 well, not the best. 12:29:34 jdz: Yeah. The end-result is the same. But the syntax is better. 12:29:47 jdz: What is the best thing then? 12:30:18 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:57 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:31:38 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.202.37] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:32:02 well, i'd say that the fact that it is a new lisp with very good underlying concepts is one of the best. (the definition of "best" depends on the speaker, anyway). 12:33:09 so the immutability of data structures is very core to it, and i'm not sure it can be retrofitted into common lisp. 12:33:38 although i had an idea of tinkering with it someday. now i'm not sure i'll do it because there is Clojure. 12:35:06 trebor_win: Why is it necessary for a physicist to write own simulation software. And why do it in Lisp. Good OpenGL bindings? 12:36:27 jdz: I looked at common lisp first. But I'm definitely going to look at clojure as well. The only thing to dislike is that Clojure has many (3?) basic data-structures - and not just lists. 12:37:01 brill: any non-trivial program needs more than just lists, and common lisp caters for that, too. 12:37:02 H4ns, memo from drewc: I've been away these last few days .. thanks for fighting the fires of cl-net! 12:37:11 brill: common lisp has hash tables and arrays too. 12:37:17 brill: what's there to dislike? 12:37:58 -!- Ijeroj__ [n=nah@u-4-147.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:38:02 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:38:17 Yeah. But it all boils down to lists as I understand it. Clojure does not. I like the simplicity of that. Build more advanced data-structure on top of simple ones and what can go wrong? :-) 12:38:24 brill: You don't understand it. 12:38:57 Xach: Elaborate. 12:39:04 brill: It does not all boil down to lists. 12:39:11 That's an incorrect notion. 12:39:24 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@u-4-147.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:39:27 brill: different basic data structures have different fundamental trade-offs. there is no "one size fits all" here. 12:39:36 If you're making a decision based on that understanding, you might need to revisit it. 12:40:27 brill: it is the surface syntax of common lisp that only supports lists (although reader macros provide for extensibility). clojure supports more data structures in its surface syntax, which is kind of a superficial, but often debated topic in particular among newcomers 12:40:47 brill: i do not use opengl (now). lisp gives me the possibility to code the way i am thinking (bottom up and top down) and gives me maximum flexibility (to change algorithms/structures) 12:41:39 Xach: What H4ns said. :-) 12:42:25 <_8david> common lisp has built-in syntax for at least: simple-vectors, strings, and structures 12:42:33 brill: rich hickeys comment in these debates is "please use clojure for a while, then reconsider if you like or dislike the extended surface syntax) 12:43:10 _8david: not even common lisp is clean!!elf 12:43:28 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:43:36 H4ns: you are reading too much heise.de ;) 12:44:03 trebor_win: definitely not. any reading of the heise.de forum is too much, and i don't 12:44:41 Ah. But lispers do have the feeling of simplicily at the bottom. It's that I'm afraid I'll be missing in Clojure. 12:44:49 -!- timor101 [n=icke@w0403.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:44:57 H4ns: using !!elf ... only is topped () by !!einself ;) 12:45:13 brill: are you a lisper? how do you know what lispers feel at the bottom? 12:45:24 jdz: thank you for asking! :) 12:45:38 -!- jesusito [n=jesusito@232.pool85-49-227.dynamic.orange.es] has left #lisp 12:45:52 how tied is clojure to the jvm backend? 12:45:56 trebor_win: in an international channel like this one, !1eleven is the proper spelling anyway. 12:46:04 locklace: #clojure is ===> that way 12:46:07 jdz: Read H4ns again. The notion of clean is the same. 12:46:15 H4ns: "!" is the correct spelling (: 12:46:44 brill: i think i am more in line with jdz than you. maybe you need to re-read what i wrote. 12:47:14 ...in any channel (-: 12:48:16 brill: the best way to learn about stuff is to use it. no amount of theorizing will give you better insight. 12:48:47 but theorizing is the fun and easy part! 12:49:05 !!1e1even ;) (thanks to antifuchs for the opening paren ;) 12:49:22 cmm: yeah, i think that there is a #religion channel ;) 12:51:49 ok, looks like no #religion, so this must be the best place for therocycrafting ;) 12:52:20 Let me ask a different question then. How often do you use lists at all? 12:52:30 brill: all the time 12:52:51 all of my programs are lists! 12:53:17 chandler: shh, you'll give away the secret 12:53:54 Yeah. This is like Zen. I'll be putting my shoes on my head next. 12:54:05 "?" 12:55:10 my programs are trees 12:57:12 nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:57:46 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:59:40 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.139.1] has joined #lisp 13:01:41 <_8david> nikodemus_: Windows has a cpu affinity thing, too, so this doesn't need to be Linux-specific, I think. 13:01:59 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 13:02:27 yes, also a native OS X API: http://developer.apple.com/releasenotes/Performance/RN-AffinityAPI/ 13:03:23 hello 13:03:41 good *time-of-day* 13:04:00 drat 13:05:10 whatabout solaris and freebsd? 13:05:40 there's a Solaris API, and I'd be really surprised if there wasn't one for FreeBSD 13:06:27 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07:08 http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/816-0212/6m6nd4ncm?a=view 13:07:45 then again, maybe I am surprised 13:08:12 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 13:10:29 darwin 10.5 has an affinity api, but it is quite different 13:10:57 you specify which threads want share the L2 cache, and then they get run on the same processor 13:12:05 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 13:13:36 at a glance it not clear to me that the solaris api and linux api benefit from an identical lisp-level api 13:14:46 what is it that we want from the affinity API? the Darwin thinking seems to be "you don't care which physical processors things will run on, only that the right threads run on the same CPUs" 13:15:53 which I guess is a "say what you want and let the OS take care of it" API, but may not deliver what you want when you've got four multithreaded programs on your 16-core CPU and you're trying to get them all to stop stepping on each others' toes 13:17:10 nikodemus_: it might be good to try to come up with a unified Lisp-level API, if only so that people who want to use these things don't need to #+/#- all over the place. 13:17:30 given that on linux you get to say which threads may run on which processors -- and nothing else, i don't see how we can provide anything else in the linux api 13:17:40 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 13:18:22 of course, we could have a more declarative API, where you tell all sorts of preferences to the system, which then get implemented depending on the capabilities of the platform 13:19:34 but i have no idea what that API should look like 13:20:45 -!- xreyes_ [n=xreyes@175.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:20:46 also, introspection is important: "i'm not seeing the parallelism i would expect. what processors are available? what if i force each thread to a separate processor?", etc 13:21:51 I'm happy to write some of my software explicitly to useful linux-only interfaces. 13:21:52 I'm sort of imagining a virtual CPU scheme, where there are an infinite number of processors numbered from 0, and all threads running on the same virtual processor run on the same real processor 13:22:10 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-105-4-59.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 13:22:22 On systems where it's possible to bind to a physical CPU, the assigned physical CPU is just the virtual CPU mod number of CPUs 13:22:36 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1DBA7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:23:07 On Darwin, virtual CPUs would become affinity tags 13:23:26 go-go gadged chandler! :) 13:24:49 of course, your "only odd-numbered CPUs in mask" example doesn't really map to that scheme 13:26:11 i think i like SB-LINUX as an idea, portable affinity API in SB-THREAD notwhitstanding 13:26:13 A quick show of hands. How many believe that feelings towards a language has been important in selecting it in the first place? 13:26:33 brill: absolutely 13:26:39 brill: No idea what that means. 13:26:46 what an odd question. how can you have feelings without knowing it? 13:26:54 neurogeek_ [n=neurogee@201.208.73.206] has joined #lisp 13:26:54 s/it/the language/ 13:27:04 Selecting a programming language is mostly personal preference. 13:27:11 nikodemus_: Yeah, that's probably a good idea too. 13:27:19 and that's rarely objective 13:27:50 speaking of such things, does anyone have a good idea of the history behind FAST-SELECT being different from SB-UNIX:SELECT? 13:27:55 nikodemus_: why can't random things go into sb-posix? sb-posix is already somewhat platform-specific. 13:27:57 brill: you could start the road to relative clarity by defining "selecting" and "feelings" 13:27:59 z0d: no 13:28:11 i would prefer not to make it more so 13:28:33 sb-posix should do what it says on the tin, imho 13:28:41 not if something is clearly unportale, at least 13:28:59 putting platform-specific things into platform-specific contribs/packages seems sensible to me 13:29:01 chandler: the sb-posix README tin, or the name "sb-posix"? 13:29:04 if something depends on differently broken versions of ostensibly standard things... 13:29:14 Xach: the name :-) 13:29:24 then someone can concoct a trivial- thingie on top of those if he wants 13:29:29 chandler: yeah, me too. the README is in conflict with it somewhat though. 13:29:44 *kreuter* sees he's on the wrong side of history, stops caring. 13:30:12 Another quick showing of hands. Does anyone here have a favorite language they have strong feelings for? 13:30:31 "feelings for"? 13:30:56 brill: the Lisp-family 13:31:00 *_8david* has strong feelings regarding stupid polls 13:31:02 I have lots of feelings for C++, but it's not my favourite language 13:31:22 i love *working* in lisp. i have very few feelings towards the language as an abstract entity -- at least not while sober 13:31:59 brill: by "string feelings" you mean positive feelings, right? 13:32:17 Thanks all. 13:33:42 I just had to confirm that someone here actually cares about lisp as in like working in lisp. Also when sober. 13:33:46 :-) 13:33:48 elurin [n=user@81.213.203.109] has joined #lisp 13:34:14 why would you think that we don't, given that we're all talking about programming in Lisp? 13:34:46 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E474.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:35:08 ...does it matter? 13:37:43 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 13:38:10 I wouldn't trust a language that no people actually like using 13:38:11 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 13:38:22 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 13:38:24 as opposed to admiring it's purity, or whatever 13:39:13 jsnell: And yet programmers work with a language all day that they dislike. They even talk about it. But you're right on. 13:40:35 I use mostly Python nowadays. It's OK. I'd like to pass around code by nicer means than strings, but it works. 13:43:33 And let's look at the facts: How many languages have a song? 13:44:09 brill: how many languages have raving lunatic users? 13:44:16 jikanter [n=jordan@dsl093-114-131.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 13:44:27 brill: are you convinced yet that you want to be a lisp programmer, too? 13:44:54 brill: i mean, what does it have to do with the programming language at hand? 13:45:18 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:45:51 H4ns: I am a Lisp programmer. Contrary to common belief. :-) 13:47:08 jdz: Nothin'. I'm just making a point. And maybe you need to drink less coffee. 13:47:24 brill: what was the point? 13:49:53 tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:50:00 has Clozure's interest in beefing up their IDE already been discussed here? 13:50:48 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 13:51:05 kreuter: i've not seen that. what i'm interested in is learning whether the ide will be macos only, cross-platform or multi-platform. 13:51:11 That we have two groups of people here. A group that works with Lisp for a living. And a group of people who sincerely like the language and it's ability to make thoughts and ideas possible. 13:51:41 H4ns: I'm wondering why they're interested in it at all. 13:51:53 -!- chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:52:14 kreuter: i guess it is because they love lisp? (only half-way kidding here) 13:52:49 H4ns: Satori for H4ns. 13:53:29 brill: I'd guess that the former camp is very small 13:53:44 brill: i think you have failed to make that point. at least for me. i might have drunk too little (too much?) coffee. 13:53:46 er, sure. I just mean that while I can believe they could produce something nice, it probably won't be as versatile as Emacs & SLIME, at least for a long time. 13:54:23 kreuter: that is true, but i think it would be really (really) nice to have an open source common lisp ide. 13:54:42 jdz: I have to work on that then. 13:54:45 yeah, that's true. 13:54:47 kreuter: using gnu emacs and elisp works, but it is really not as hackable as i would like it to be. 13:55:01 Bozza1 [n=bozza@82.132.136.212] has joined #lisp 13:55:16 H4ns: What's wrong with Eclipse and Emacs? 13:55:32 -!- nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:55:33 why would it be more hackable if it was written in CL? 13:55:42 brill: there is nothing wrong, but being a lisp programmer, i would like to hack and extend my ide in common lisp, not in something else. 13:55:52 vixey: no need to learn a new language. 13:55:56 ok 13:56:02 H4ns: try hemlock 13:56:09 jikanter: can't live without undo 13:56:13 the cost of implementing a new IDE seems actually ... bigger to me 13:56:24 hello 13:56:29 can anybody help me please? 13:56:31 vixey: that is why they try to raise money so that they can do it. 13:56:35 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-46-30-39.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [] 13:56:35 topito: we don't know. 13:56:39 topito: try #cl-gardeners 13:56:41 -!- cracki [n=cracki@43-016.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:56:47 ok thanks 13:56:57 I guess I read into their announcement that their IDE would be CCL-specific. 13:56:57 Try M-x check-parens first. 13:57:15 *g* 13:57:30 kreuter: yes - and i am not sure if it would be cross platform or macos specific 13:57:35 cl-gardeners is a channel for common lisp noobies? 13:57:43 H4ns i think its mac specific for now 13:57:49 you can see their list of priorities 13:57:59 -!- Bozza1 is now known as Bozza 13:58:04 they want to provide an alternative for mcl is my guess 13:58:07 xristos: ok, i failed to read that from the email. i'm not interested in that. 13:58:14 and fred-like editor ranks high on their todo 13:59:25 i have a list with spheres, in my list i have 3 type of spheres, yellow, green and pale blue. 13:59:58 i want that when they collide they change color to black , and when they not collide they get back to the original color, so i made 3 lists each one per color. and when they collide its suppose to change 14:00:12 before i made other example withouth list i was changing directly the color and it worked fine. 14:01:24 kreuter: where did you read this announcement? 14:01:40 Fade: planet lisp and other places 14:02:00 ah, cool. I'll get to it in the natural course of things, then. 14:02:19 topito pasted "spheres with lists" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69399 14:02:42 paste.lisp.org ist tot 14:03:02 ach, nein! 14:03:02 here is the code 14:03:03 http://paste.lisp.org/display/69399 14:03:17 topito: no need to repeat what lisppaste said already. 14:03:21 do anybody have any idea of what i am doing wrong? 14:03:22 ok sorry 14:03:43 what is the equivalent of the kill shell command in osicat? 14:04:36 theres something wrong with lisp paste 14:04:42 i get proxy error 14:05:07 topito: So do I. 14:05:31 And I didn't break it. :-) 14:06:18 im gonna paste in other web 14:07:25 attila_lendvai: where is osicat maintained nowadays? 14:07:41 damm other paste web sites doenst have common lisp sintax 14:07:52 and does it have any documentation? 14:08:34 kreuter: i'm pulling from http://common-lisp.net/project/osicat/git/osicat.git - i think at least fe[nl]ix and nikodemus have commit rights to it 14:09:34 hm, the website still seems to advertise cvs... 14:09:41 ah. that's nonobvious from google. 14:09:51 topito: pastebin.ca can highlight lisp, somewhat 14:10:19 ok thanks 14:10:39 I'm confused. has osicat evolved into another sb-posix-alike? 14:11:30 kreuter: osicat is a portable posix interface and uses cffi-grovel 14:11:43 okay. it didn't used to be 14:11:59 here it is: 14:12:00 http://pastebin.ca/1239629 14:12:26 that's a pity. sb-posix is a bad API. 14:12:50 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:13:32 attila_lendvai: I added kill(2). usage: (nix:kill nix:sigkill), etc... 14:14:00 fe[nl]ix: heh, i owe you one more beer... :) 14:14:08 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:14:31 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 14:15:35 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 14:16:49 -!- jikanter [n=jordan@dsl093-114-131.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:17:38 attila_lendvai: tokaji would be better :) 14:17:48 dthomp [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 14:20:26 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E9B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:23:31 MHOOO [n=nah@u-7-024.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:23:54 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@u-7-024.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has left #lisp 14:23:55 MHOOO [n=nah@u-7-024.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:24:05 why is sb-posix a bad API? 14:25:04 returning raw file descriptors, process ids, directory handles, and so on doesn't combine well with non-local transfers. 14:25:16 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 14:25:29 it's too low-level 14:25:41 konr [n=user@201.82.228.185] has joined #lisp 14:25:45 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [] 14:25:47 Is anybody using CLM? 14:27:56 swulf-- [n=cmason@c-71-57-170-226.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:27:56 non-local transfer of what? 14:27:59 konr: Which one is that again? 14:28:03 konr: I gave it a test-drive over a year ago, but I haven't used it extensively, nor am I using it now. 14:28:12 Xof: control transfers, I mean. 14:28:24 kreuter: in fact osicat has room for higher abstractions (e.g. directory walking already there), but it also provides a thin layer to posix 14:28:25 Looking to embed lisp in an application i'm working on, and wondering which implementation has a good api, is lightweight, and not GPL :P 14:28:26 I don't accept "too low-level"; all that means is that no-one has built a suitable high-level interface 14:28:44 if you want to demonstrate that it's impossible to build a higher-level interface on top of it, then we should talk 14:28:57 spiaggia: The one that has sound synthesizing 14:29:04 swulf--: http://l1sp.org/lisp/survey has an overview of available common lisps 14:29:06 attila_lendvai: is that layer at all interrupt-safe? 14:29:08 kreuter: ok, so I don't understand the point 14:29:15 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:29:15 thanks 14:29:21 konr: and that generates C code or something like that, right? 14:29:23 ahaas: How did you install it? Was it included in CM? 14:29:37 Xof: (let ((fd (sb-posix:open ...))) ) <-- leaks. 14:29:48 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 14:29:51 spiaggia: I think it generates the actual soundfile 14:29:54 kreuter: i lost you there (i'm not too experienced in the posix field) 14:30:00 spiaggia: but I'm not sure, I'm trying it out now 14:30:00 konr: I did not install CM. I installed CLM from source, independently. 14:30:55 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 14:31:11 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 14:31:13 <_8david> kreuter: (let ((stream (open ...))) ) <-- leaks, too 14:31:23 yeah, sorry, I fail to get the point 14:31:36 right, but the implementation can attach a finalizer to the stream. 14:31:51 at some point, you are going to have to call open(2) and do something with the result 14:31:56 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:31:57 <_8david> sb-posix:with-open-descriptor would be nice. 14:32:12 if you're saying that sb-posix is too low-level, fine: build something high-level on top of it 14:32:27 or aside it if even touching sb-posix is repugnant to you, I don't care 14:33:18 I didn't say it was too low level. I think something that had basically the same interface but that didn't deal in raw integers and pointers would be somewhat better, though. 14:33:23 spiaggia: CLM is a Music V type package. You can create generators and various modules and output directly to wave files. 14:33:51 in short, I think you need a without-interrupts around every call to sb-posix:open, sb-posix:fork, etc., to use it safely. 14:34:05 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.139.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:34:19 ... and you need to wrap up fds, pids, and so on. 14:34:44 I think relying on stream finalizers for non-leakiness is a strategy doomed to failure, and I would rather see an interface that didn't rely on finalizers. I would claim that such an interface will be easier to build on sb-posix than on an sb-posix that wraps up all return values in interesting ways 14:36:06 -!- Bozza [n=bozza@82.132.136.212] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:36:12 kreuter: you need a without-interrupts around every call to sb-posix:open in the same way as you need a sigblock() around every call to open(2), right? 14:37:12 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:37:14 in a program that's supposed to be able to keep running after async interrupts, maybe, yeah. 14:37:25 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.139.1] has joined #lisp 14:38:33 -!- swulf-- [n=cmason@c-71-57-170-226.hsd1.fl.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:39:06 I think sb-posix meets its design goal fairly well, which is to be an interface that is basically usable by just looking at man pages, and to be straightforwardly usable to build a notionally os-independent "nice" os interface. Shame no-one's done the second bit yet. 14:39:53 I don't see how wrapping descriptors and pids and so forth in Lisp objects would harm that, but I guess you're saying that doing so wouldn't be of any use, either. 14:39:55 <_8david> kreuter: in what kind of scenario does sbcl have to do that? I thought that things like INTERRUPT-THREAD are inherently unsafe anyway, while SBCL-internal signals (stop for gc, ...) would have to restart the open(2) system call transparently. 14:40:10 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.203.109] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 14:40:21 blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.6.162] has joined #lisp 14:41:58 _8david: what about C-c at the REPL? 14:41:59 filcab42 [n=filcab@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 14:42:52 timor [n=icke@w0456.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 14:45:08 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 14:45:48 <_8david> hmm, also "inherently unsafe"? :-) 14:46:03 fair 'nuff. 14:46:08 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:47:37 right, I didn't state everything clearly. if you have raw descriptors, asynchronous interrupts, and non-local control transfers from async interrupt handlers, I think you're prone to leaking. I think finalizers can help; but I could be wrong there. 14:48:06 finalizers can act as a safety net, but they won't stop you from falling off the tightrope 14:48:33 I'm not sure I follow. could you elaborate? 14:49:10 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@u-7-024.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:49:17 if you're relying on a finalizer to manage a non-memory resource, then you are vulnerable to not gcing enough to recover garbage-but-unfreed instances of that resource 14:49:44 example: interrupt sb-kreuter-posix:open 1024 times -- you probably won't have allocated enough to trigger a garbage collection, so no finalizer will run 14:50:08 yet you'll still be out of fds 14:50:15 alright. 14:50:38 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0ADD.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:50:44 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:50:52 Does the CLHS say anything about having both a (setf ...) named function and a setf expander define by define-setf-expander for the same accessor function? 14:51:08 *defined by 14:51:10 Think of the GC as a unicyle, and the fds as the balls you're juggling while riding on the tightrope... Or not. 14:51:15 benny [n=benny@i577A0ADD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:52:20 ... above the mouth of Hell 14:52:54 -!- konr [n=user@201.82.228.185] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:54:40 something like that 14:54:55 I agree that a high-level OS interface probably doesn't let the user leak fds 14:55:36 elurin [n=user@81.213.203.109] has joined #lisp 14:55:58 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:56:04 C-c c-c at the REPL _is_ INTERRUPT-THREAD if threads are available 14:56:50 Lau_of_DK [n=Lau@90.185.128.112] has joined #lisp 14:56:55 -!- besiria [n=user@webspirs.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:57:03 Xof: I suppose I'm saying that what sb-posix exposes ought to be something else's internals, and not for direct use. 14:57:07 Gents, can someone here enlighten me on the differences between inferior-lisp and superior-lisp ? 14:57:20 which is, I think, what you're saying. 14:57:25 probably :-) 14:57:52 and is also what i meant by "too low-level" ;) 14:58:06 Lau_of_DK: Inferior foo is Emacs speak and means that foo is run in a child process, communicating with Emacs. 14:59:03 tcr, so how do you explain it when superior-lisp is running a slime-repl ? 14:59:07 Lau_of_DK: The Superior Lisp Mode for Emacs (SLIME) is a pun on a previous emacs mode which was called ilisp (for inferior lisp) 14:59:07 tic: Doing? Just hacking code in general when I don't have access to my desktop computer. 14:59:44 Lau_of_DK: It's just a pun, meaning that Slime is superior to ilisp. 14:59:54 tcr, okay. I ask because Im currently coding in Clojure, where I can get an interactive repl either through Inferior/Swank or Superior/Slime, but what are the major differences between the two ? 15:00:20 Lau_of_DK: I can't comment on that choice of naming. 15:00:30 Lau_of_DK: Swank is the Lisp backend, Slime is the Emacs frontend. 15:00:31 hehe 15:00:58 Lau_of_DK: Swank is a server that communicates with the slime frontend via a sexp-based RPC scheme. 15:01:06 back 15:01:10 sorry! 15:01:17 new irc client... 15:01:59 tcr, oh... If thats the case, then I cant possibly have an interactive repl without slime being involved? 15:02:06 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 15:02:27 Lau_of_DK: if you're using clojure, ask the clojure channel. 15:02:51 Xach, Im getting better answers here 15:03:21 Lau_of_DK: There are other frontends than Slime that use the Swank server; for example Climacs (and Emacs like editor written in CL), or Cusp (a plugin for Eclipse) 15:03:47 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:03:53 tic: I would hope to get McCLIM running on it though, so I can use it for some more stuff. I suppose that won't be any problem at all anyway. So that's what I'm doing. :) 15:04:07 You seem to be confused about what Slime is, what it provides, and how it works. 15:04:28 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:05:49 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E479EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:06:00 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-117-139.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:06:02 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has quit ["bbl"] 15:06:05 tcr, thats right, but its become more clear now 15:06:28 zickzackv [n=zickzack@e178173160.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:07:55 Lau_of_DK: Slime is modularized; the clojure community can send a clojure-specific backend upstreams which may then be incorporated as a contrib. 15:08:44 there is clojure-swank 15:08:47 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:12 It's not yet part of the official Slime distribution, though, I think. 15:09:18 ManateeLazyCat, then it works almost perfectly - only hitch is that it splits the window 50/50, instead of a preferred 70/30 split, where the Repl only takes 30% space 15:09:25 (wrong channel) 15:10:00 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:11:11 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64.252.13.228] has joined #lisp 15:12:10 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:12:47 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E479EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:12:50 schme, doing what about what? 15:12:53 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44155.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:12:58 schme, ah, OK. What kind of system is it? 15:13:10 -!- seelenquell__ is now known as seelenquell 15:13:21 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:13:55 konr [n=user@201.82.228.185] has joined #lisp 15:14:56 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:17:29 tic: It's a zaurus c3200 15:17:45 Right now I run clisp on it. 15:18:21 Which works, of course. But the fun of porting sbcl is ... what on says.. upphetsande. 15:19:22 I doubt that system has enough memory to run SBCL comfortably 15:19:36 if you're interested in doing an ARM port, there are probably systems out there which would make much better targets 15:19:43 What's the problem if I set up a 512MB or 1GB swap on it though? 15:19:49 slooooooooooow..... 15:19:58 That's ok. 15:20:06 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45E06.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:20:10 And I don't have any other arm system ;) 15:20:24 What other interesting ones are there? 15:22:05 there are some small NAS boxes that run an Intel IOP platform that have a DDR SDRAM slot 15:22:16 also, there are some ATX motherboards out there 15:22:21 those would probably be good porting machines 15:22:29 Indeed! 15:22:47 schme, exciting? 15:23:03 I'd still love it on my Z though. I doubt it will be much slower than what I already have ;) 15:23:23 tic: That works :) 15:23:56 I want something portable for this clim app I have going. So it's the best bet it seems to me. 15:24:12 what's it do? 15:24:18 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-0-116.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:24:36 keeps track of my eating and workouting 15:24:43 and calculates stuff and draws purty charts. 15:24:51 Or it will anyway, it's not quite finished ;) 15:26:17 Trying to figure out postmodern at the moment. But that seems to be working like I want now. 15:26:20 So horray. 15:26:32 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.139.1] has left #lisp 15:27:21 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 15:29:45 -!- zickzackv [n=zickzack@e178173160.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 15:29:49 mcclim on a handheld device, well okay. but postgresql? 15:30:17 jesusito [n=jesusito@232.pool85-49-227.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 15:31:16 -!- jesusito [n=jesusito@232.pool85-49-227.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Client Quit] 15:32:46 next you'll be running a web browser and mp3 player on the thing! madness! 15:33:13 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-145-181.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has left #lisp 15:33:41 Xach: web browser or an mp3 player are really something different from a multiuser client/server database, no? 15:34:01 Xach: I already have a web browser and an mp3 player running on it. 15:34:59 H4ns: pgsql works just fine on it .) 15:35:14 H4ns: don't web browsers these days typically include an excitingly general database system? 15:35:24 I'd love to go with that there sqlite but I couldn't figure out how to convert the database. 15:35:24 schme: i'm not doubting that. 15:35:35 I seem to recall people talking about scary database performance issues in Firefox N 15:35:36 H4ns: in the context of "things you would not expect to work on a handheld device", they differ only in their points on a timeline... 15:35:40 Xof: yes, something like sqlite 15:36:17 I found some guide on converting the database to sqlite but it didn't quite work. 15:36:20 So oh well :) 15:36:20 well anyway, run whatever mainframe client/server software you want on your handheld. *shrug* 15:36:37 Hehehe. 15:36:41 Thanks ;) 15:37:28 and yes, why not swap to flash memory if it works. sure! 15:37:30 *boggle* 15:37:54 Well it's a harddrive really. 15:38:03 So that's faster than flash memory me thinks. 15:38:22 except for the high latency, which is what really kills you when swapping 15:38:42 LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has joined #lisp 15:38:43 Ya well it works. 15:39:12 I have SXE and clisp swapping all the time... especially with X running. It's slower than my desktop system, but I'm not in a hurry. 15:39:13 milanj [n=milan@93.86.112.88] has joined #lisp 15:39:15 Doesn't Zaurus use flash based SSD? 15:39:23 schme, you say you work out. Have you tried playing squash? 15:39:28 I just need to input stuff, then get back to working out. 15:39:32 it's much more fun than lifting weights or running on a treadmill all day 15:39:33 jpcooper: Nope. Is it any good? 15:39:39 it's bloody excellent 15:39:49 apparently in forty minutes, one can burn up to 900 calories 15:39:52 ahaas: Nope. There's a SD slot though. 15:39:54 Ok. 15:40:07 I'm not so much into burning ;) 15:40:09 and it's much more fun, along with being a great all-round workout 15:40:16 well it has your cardio as well 15:40:22 it's an extremely active sport 15:40:24 I very much doubt it's more fun than lifting weights. 15:40:29 HAH 15:40:35 Well that's cool. I'll try it if I can find somewhere to do it. 15:40:47 Thanks for the suggestion! 15:40:58 no problem 15:41:32 Which reminds me I need to head down to the post office to collect my delivery of protein powder ;) 15:41:41 pfft 15:41:44 eat meat. 15:41:56 meat is expensive 15:42:09 protein powder is a lot cheaper, ya. 15:42:10 not necesarily. 15:42:13 jpcooper: Next time you want to give out workout advice, please use a private message. 15:42:15 And I eat meat too. 15:42:22 Xach, will do 15:42:24 *g* 15:42:26 tic: cheapest way to get protein, for sure :) 15:42:26 schme: are you going to make that application available when you get it cooked? 15:42:27 *tic* goes home 15:42:35 Fade: of course! 15:42:43 cool, I'd like to see it. 15:42:47 Fade: I'm just not sure where one hosts stuff. 15:43:16 Way to slow upstream here at home to host it here :) 15:43:44 schme: Sorry, it's a microdrive. I think it connects through a compact flash slot. 15:43:53 schme: Amazon S3 is pretty cheap. There are other services too. 15:44:02 I was inspired by the share lisp or it dies post on the planet lisp the ther day, so ofcourse I'll dump it somewhere :) 15:44:13 Xach: Oh cools. I'll take a look. 15:44:28 ahaas: Oh ok. 15:44:51 and supposedly, those are slower than some compact flash cards 15:44:52 I wish there was something like github for tla ;) 15:44:58 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 15:45:00 ahaas: Oh great :) 15:45:10 Good thing I'm not too worried about the speed ;) 15:46:14 schme: I have a C3000, but I stopped using it after I realized I spent more time configuring it than anything else. 15:46:29 But, I was happy with emacs, slime, and clisp on it. 15:47:33 -!- rpg is now known as rpg|away 15:48:08 -!- rpg|away is now known as rpg 15:48:46 -!- rpg is now known as rpg|away 15:50:22 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.202.37] has joined #lisp 15:51:20 *_8david* pushes vast amounts of untested clbuild patches written by other people 15:51:29 <_8david> (please test!) 15:51:33 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 15:52:27 it's a beautiful thing, open source 15:52:54 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [] 15:53:51 antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-a32118878e5e0054] has joined #lisp 15:55:22 <_8david> also, I've moved exotic command to --long-help again. Apparently newbies invariably try operations that are bound to be a disappointment, like "clbuild build --all-projects" or so, so I think those need to be deemphasized in our documentation. 15:57:14 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.245.28] has joined #lisp 16:01:34 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 16:01:43 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 16:02:07 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:03:51 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.5] has joined #lisp 16:04:06 vasa [n=vasa@mm-132-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 16:04:19 ahaas: Why spend so much time configuring it? I mosty use it to hack code on. 16:05:43 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 16:07:50 pitui [n=pitui@doh.research.att.com] has joined #lisp 16:08:56 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Success] 16:10:07 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 16:10:38 Tordek [n=tordek@host235.190-227-42.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:11:11 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-096-17.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:14:18 minion: gentle 16:14:18 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 16:18:16 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483C5AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:19:21 -!- filcab42 [n=filcab@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:21:57 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483E9B2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:23:01 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483C5AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:23:04 -!- LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:23:17 Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483C5AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:13 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:26:48 nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp124.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 16:26:59 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:27:16 house1 [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has joined #lisp 16:28:39 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 16:28:55 -!- house1 is now known as housel 16:29:48 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:30:25 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 16:31:00 *Xach* is rescued by hacker's delight 16:31:07 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:32:12 _8david: did you try the reproducible-fasls thing I sent you 16:32:13 ? 16:32:24 schme: Just trying out the various kernels, keymaps, etc. 16:33:36 The various kernels? 16:33:39 Hmm.. 16:34:12 I just installed a basic one and LFS'd it. 16:34:14 :) 16:34:17 but! 16:34:20 Back to lisp ;) 16:38:12 my Syntax teacher had a lisp... it was an amazing irony 16:39:07 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- Lau_of_DK [n=Lau@90.185.128.112] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- puddingpimp [n=puddingp@gateway.quickcircuit.co.nz] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:660:3003:8:0:0:4:68] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-0-116.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- Maghnus [n=Maghnus@68-190-147-184.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- Bucciarati [n=buccia@host105-129-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- sbok [n=kobs@unaffiliated/kobs] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- specbot [n=specbot@208.72.159.207] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- esden [i=esdentem@atradig141.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-154-66.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:39:07 -!- brandelune [n=JC@pl157.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [clarke.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:41:01 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-0-116.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 Lau_of_DK [n=Lau@90.185.128.112] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 _deepfire [n=deepfire@80.92.100.69] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 puddingpimp [n=puddingp@gateway.quickcircuit.co.nz] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 brandelune [n=JC@pl157.nas934.takamatsu.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 Maghnus [n=Maghnus@68-190-147-184.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 esden [i=esdentem@atradig141.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-154-66.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 sbok [n=kobs@unaffiliated/kobs] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 jrockway [n=jrockway@stonepath.jrock.us] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 kmkaplan [n=kmkaplan@2001:660:3003:8:0:0:4:68] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 thijso [n=thijs@83.98.233.115] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 specbot [n=specbot@208.72.159.207] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 mornfall [n=mornfall@kde/developer/mornfall] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 Bucciarati [n=buccia@host105-129-dynamic.11-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 16:41:13 scode [n=scode@hyperion.scode.org] has joined #lisp 16:43:39 <_8david> Xof: yes, thank you, I did. Haven't had real success yet, but will try again once I have time for it. 16:44:05 <_8david> first I'll need to figure out why the cold -core- isn't reproducible, which is apparently a different issue 16:44:43 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:46:01 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@30.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:46:41 filcab42 [n=filcab@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 16:46:41 hm, really? Doesn't it follow from the fasls not being reproducible? 16:46:58 (my patch doesn't make all fasls deterministic by any means, just some of them :) 16:47:32 wchogg_ [n=wchogg@h216-165-145-181.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:34 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 16:48:02 topito pasted "sphere with lists" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69400 16:48:33 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:12 note to self: don't leave a bunch of SBCL on for too long. my computer wouldn't wake up when I hit the keyboard, had to ssh in and kill all sbcl processes. 16:50:11 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Client Quit] 16:51:03 <_8david> Xof: well, I haven't really started investigating it... But your patch didn't seem to affect the cold core differences much. 16:51:06 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 16:51:22 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:23 okay 16:51:53 I'm willing to look at this, because the day I can get rid of whiny people saying "but but clisp-2.18x.pre18 doesn't compile sbcl properly, please fix it" is a happy day 16:51:54 <_8david> And the cold core differences between two consecutive builds are pretty small either way. I'll just have to take a hexeditor and a copy of objdef.lisp and take a peek at what objects those are. 16:51:57 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:52:49 one of them might be a timestamp 16:53:58 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 16:54:18 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:54:24 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@30.pool85-49-182.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 16:55:18 Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 16:57:34 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 17:00:28 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:00:32 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 17:02:04 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-61.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:04:58 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.245.28] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 17:05:53 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 17:06:07 minion: tell nikodemus FreeBSD 7.1 will have an affinity API, which needless to say is different from every other system: http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=cpuset&sektion=2&apropos=0&manpath=FreeBSD+8-current 17:06:08 nikodemus: i agree - freebsd 7 1 will have an affinity api which needless to say is different from every other system httpwww freebsd orgcgiman cgi query=cpuset&sektion=2&apropos=0&manpath=freebsd+8 current 17:06:12 doh 17:06:41 minion: memo for nikodemus: FreeBSD 7.1 will have an affinity API, which needless to say is different from every other system: http://www.FreeBSD.org/cgi/man.cgi?query=cpuset&sektion=2&apropos=0&manpath=FreeBSD+8-current 17:06:42 Remembered. I'll tell nikodemus when he/she/it next speaks. 17:06:52 -!- tayssir [n=user@streamtech.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:07:56 hi when i make an executable with sbcl. is there a way to get the command line arguments? 17:08:25 krumholt: sb-ext:*posix-argv* 17:08:37 Xach, thx 17:09:05 -!- dthomp [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:09:33 Xach, will this be a string? 17:09:39 krumholt: it is a list of strings. 17:10:25 Xach, thanks again :) 17:11:21 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9A6D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:12:58 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:19:22 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 17:19:58 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:20:46 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:20:46 -!- l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:22:08 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:26:37 vy [n=user@88.224.71.1] has joined #lisp 17:29:18 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:30:00 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:33:20 josemanuel [n=josemanu@3.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:34:42 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:35:05 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:35:56 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-3b775b5bf39dd083] has joined #lisp 17:36:21 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:42:00 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #lisp 17:43:18 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:02 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:23 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 17:45:46 yakman_ [n=user@93-97-94-194.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:45:54 -!- yakman_ [n=user@93-97-94-194.zone5.bethere.co.uk] has left #lisp 17:47:28 -!- _adeht is now known as adeht 17:49:54 -!- vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:50:18 -!- antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-a32118878e5e0054] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:50:42 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 17:50:50 vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:51:56 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 17:58:38 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.7] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:55 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.187.136] has joined #lisp 18:03:51 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 18:04:01 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:05:43 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:19 antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-b5418c98ef8562bc] has joined #lisp 18:08:14 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.202.37] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:08:40 -!- timor [n=icke@w0456.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:09:11 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.138.211] has joined #lisp 18:09:35 -!- ramkrsna [n=ramkrsna@unaffiliated/ramkrsna] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:10:01 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:13:33 pjb [n=t@intergruas.easynet.es] has joined #lisp 18:14:45 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:16:37 MHOOO [n=nah@0-076.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:17:45 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:22 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 18:18:39 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0ADD.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:19:41 matimago- [n=t@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:20:12 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:20:37 benny [n=benny@i577A0ADD.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 18:21:29 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 18:22:11 -!- trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has left #lisp 18:23:38 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [Client Quit] 18:24:17 schasi [n=schasi@p54A261EF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:34 -!- jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:25:25 mdxi [n=mdxi@li11-97.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 18:26:39 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@0-076.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:26:39 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@u-4-101.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:26:46 -!- Ijeroj__ is now known as MHOOO 18:27:50 back 18:28:46 -!- splittist [n=splittis@213.235.9.122] has quit ["byeee"] 18:32:14 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 18:32:21 -!- filcab42 [n=filcab@wifi.ist.utl.pt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:33:51 ciscbrain [n=eugen@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 18:37:03 -!- pjb [n=t@intergruas.easynet.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:39:36 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-20.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:39:55 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.205.46] has joined #lisp 18:39:56 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:40:09 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 18:43:37 -!- topito is now known as topito-away 18:46:10 binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.192.230] has joined #lisp 18:50:26 jso [n=user@151.159.200.15] has joined #lisp 18:50:53 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 18:52:47 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5221a22f40f5cf22] has joined #lisp 18:57:52 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.205.46] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:57:59 -!- binarycodes_ is now known as binarycodes 18:59:23 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@3-008.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:00:56 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-73-156.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 19:01:03 Good evening. 19:02:49 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-135-49.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 19:02:50 hi there beach 19:04:12 What's cookin'? 19:04:18 cmeme [n=cmeme@boa.b9.com] has joined #lisp 19:04:36 -!- cmeme [n=cmeme@boa.b9.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:04:36 optimal length-limited huffman codes are cooking 19:05:11 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 19:05:14 neat. I used tertiary huffman coding for a 3-key keyboard layout once. 19:05:24 cmeme [n=cmeme@boa.b9.com] has joined #lisp 19:05:28 what are you going to use your soup for? 19:05:30 hi is there a UTF-8 string in lisp? i want to save webpages to my harddrive with drakma, but some chars like ä will be unreadable in the file 19:05:33 tic: Here? Late meeting with a work group for improving the contents of our administrative-computing program, so late dinner, etc. 19:05:43 I just fell in love with the mcclim tab-layout :) 19:05:55 krumholt: UTF-8 is a way to encode numbers (representing characters) into sequences of 8-bit bytes 19:06:03 beach, dinner is cooking, then! "meeting...work group...administrative" sounds like less fun, though? 19:06:15 tic: indeed :( 19:06:16 krumholt: the CL standard doesn't talk about encoding like that, but many implementations provide a way to do it. 19:06:29 tic: Dynamic huffman trees in salza2, hopefully. 19:06:44 thanks 19:06:47 tic: I was surprised to see that, as far as I can tell, zlib doesn't support doign that at all. (maybe it's not worth it) 19:06:48 krumholt: So, the question is, which impl are you using? 19:06:57 sbcl 19:06:58 tic: but its part of the sentence^H^H^H^H^H^H^Happointment as head of (teaching) department. 19:07:01 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 19:07:28 schme: I am glad you like McCLIM. 19:07:29 Xach, oh? so does it use a fixed table or what? 19:07:50 beach, the higher up you get, the less you get done, it seems. :) 19:07:51 tic: from what i can tell. i could be wrong, but searching through the API documentation didn't show anything that looked like dynamic huffman tables. 19:08:27 krumholt: see babel or flexi-streams to convert a string to a vector of bytes using utf-8. 19:08:44 Xach, that's for zlib though. pondered burrow-wheeler? 19:08:49 beach: Oh I loved it from the first time I started playing with it. Just now discovered the tab layout :) 19:08:56 tic: I haven't. Never heard of it. 19:09:06 Xach, uh, s/burrow-wheeler/bzip2/. I was just trying to show off. :( 19:09:16 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@u-4-101.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:34 tic: We have a very interesting organization here that I am very pround of, and that my brother (who works for Sony-Ericsson in Lund) made me aware of. It's that there is a clear distinction between individuals and roles. 19:09:35 beach: I've been trying to learn some of the GTK and other GUI toolkits, but they seem so complicated. CLIM seems an easier way to do things :) 19:10:08 beach, separation of concern is good, programming taught us that. 19:10:15 tic: Nope, but I'd like to sometime. It's not quite relevant, though, because some file formats use zlib internally and you can't swap in something else just because it's better. 19:10:22 tic: The VP of education is clearly my boss when I am in charge of the department, but I am his superior when he is in charge of a course. 19:10:54 Xach, yeah, of course. :-) was thinking in terms of a generic compression lib. you could invent your own PNG standard, though! 19:11:04 if you were to represent that in a single s-expression, you would need some #n#s 19:11:16 schme: Excellent! I hope you speak up when McCLIM is attacked (which happens oh so often, usually by people who know nothing about it). 19:11:25 tic: I'd like to see if I can, say, get smaller file sizes than pngcrush, which uses zlib to do its work. 19:11:37 *Xach* would be proud of using Algorithms to produce Real Results 19:11:49 zlib-the-library, that is 19:11:49 beach: If I ever see something of the sort I'll be sure to :) 19:11:54 Xach, that'd be cool. I guess a naive PNG writer would generate large files, no? 19:12:12 beach: Honestly I've only seen someone bitch about it once though. along the lines of "it's overengineered!" 19:12:25 tic: Sure. Few naive things can do good work on interesting problems. 19:12:30 Well apart from the "it's slow and broken" 19:12:32 I don't really see the connection, though. 19:12:35 schme: You would be surprised. 19:12:51 beach, [organization] interesting! Makes sense, when you say it. 19:13:28 schme: There is Kenny on c.l.l. I think I caught fusss here early, but he was well on the way. H4ns is not that positive, etc. 19:13:41 CellsGTK? 19:13:42 beach: My main problem with it is the general confusion I have with getting into it. But playing around and browsing around the specs works just fine :) Probably better in the long run than just googling up a gtk tutorial anyway. 19:14:00 Ah. 19:14:03 Maybe one should start reading c.l.l. 19:14:03 tic: it does, and I now I am surprised that not every organization is able to work that way. It is quite nice actually. 19:14:04 heh. 19:15:13 McCLIM is in a relatively enviable position right now, as far as "getting it to run at all" is concerned 19:15:13 beach, a good start is to accept that people have different skills, even when they're at different level in the organization. E.g. my manager could be taking programming advice from me. Don't know how that is usually done, as I've only had one larger programmeng employment thus far. 19:15:27 I was turned off when I tried climacs at first though. It seems unusable for my keymap. 19:15:42 schme, standard Swedish? 19:16:01 schme: Congratulations! I keep repeating that the people who reject CLIM are the same kind of people who reject Lisp for silly reasons. 19:16:05 the only other free lisp gui toolkit that is easy to get running is LTk, but it's not positioned to "compete" against McCLIM 19:16:07 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:16:18 ug [n=merlin@64.47.164.86] has joined #lisp 19:16:41 tic: Well svorak really. But I switched around caps lock and ctrl, and it seems to not work so well. 19:16:43 except with Lisp, you can point to more than zero people who made a product with Lisp. 19:16:44 schme: at this point, I can't recommend you start reading c.l.l 19:16:56 jao [n=user@186.Red-81-32-186.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:17:00 beach: that's good. saves me the problem of finding a free newsserver :) 19:17:00 so every time Kenny or anybody else says "CellsGTK", just ask them for guaranteed-working installation instructions 19:17:19 schme, A, O, E, U, I love you! :P 19:17:42 :) 19:18:05 schme: Since Athas seems to be abandoning us, perhaps you want to take over Climacs? 19:18:08 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.6.162] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:18:18 (I use a modified svorak where altgr-ÅÄÖ is ?() -- good for Lisp, and altgr-AOEU is {[]} which is good for day-to-day Python hacking) 19:18:19 Hahaha! 19:18:52 beach: I'd love to. But I hardly know shit about mcclim at the moment, and I can't really use climacs 'cause I can't hit ctrl in it :) 19:19:27 tic: I agree, but it seems to be very hard in industry with such strong connections between roles and individuals. In French universities, we are all colleagues but assume different simultaneous roles, which makes things more natural. 19:19:32 tic: alt-gr e = ( u = ) etc. :) 19:20:13 -!- antgreen [n=green@nat/redhat/x-b5418c98ef8562bc] has left #lisp 19:20:15 tic: I had () on alt-gr and jk (qwerty) before and that was really really bad. Messed up my hand something terrible :) 19:20:16 blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.49.58] has joined #lisp 19:20:34 schme, does xmodmap -pk | grep Control, and xmodmap -pm | grep Control give you any useful info? 19:20:41 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:20:55 <_8david> I recommend switching to gtkairo. That way, it will consistently not work well with any keymap. 19:21:03 Anyone can tell me a still maintained GUI package for (c)lisp? 19:21:10 tic: Useful for what though? :) 19:21:19 schme, to see if your Control is mapped wrong. 19:21:40 cmm: the problem is that Kenny is a (very good) native speaker of American English, and there is no way a nonnative speaker will beat him when it comes to appropriate use of colloquialisms and such. Such superior mastery of the language gives an impression of expertese that is hard to attack. 19:21:42 tic: Nah it's map correct. It just seems that climacs thinks my caps lock also is shift so stuff gets odd. 19:21:45 schme, I would actually like to put another key in front of space to map as Hyper, but I can't seem to find any decent switches to connect to the computer. 19:21:49 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [] 19:21:58 schme, right, so you have to clear those flags first. 19:22:08 They are cleared :) 19:22:13 it works fine in sxemacs etc. 19:22:13 schme: take your time. Learn at your pace, and then just do it. :) 19:22:19 Ijeroj__: LTK? 19:22:36 beach: Ya. I put "take over climacs" on my someday/maybe list ;) 19:22:37 pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:38 Uhm. Has McCLIM hardcoded the position of that damned key? 19:22:45 hypno: I'll try it out, thanks. 19:22:57 hypno, hi, neighbour! :) 19:23:01 tic: I do not know. I seem to remember someone talking about it was clx that was a bit broken on the issue. 19:23:09 schme, ah. 19:23:12 tic: But don't take my word for it :) 19:23:18 tic: yo. :) 19:23:32 tic: And also what you need is foot switches :) 19:24:11 schme, I've considered that, but I'm not sure I like that. my left thumb is almost never used (use right for space), so I figure placing hyper for the left thumb would be a good idea. 19:24:22 schme, I rarely have my feet on the floor. 19:24:50 aaah. a split space. 19:24:54 That'd be neat. 19:25:09 No no, in -front- of the space. A split space would generate the same key on both sides. 19:25:18 tic: perhaps you too should get involved in Climacs development so that you can get your favorite key sequences to do what you want. 19:25:27 Not if one had it working as two seperate keys :) 19:25:30 beach, I'm afraid that'll pull me into Emacs. 19:25:45 Hahaha. 19:25:55 clivim 19:25:58 schme, true. I doubt it's setup like that. Moreover, I can't imagine living without my Das Keyboard III now that I'm used to it. 19:26:16 tic: that's nothing to be afraid of per se, though I strongly doubt that will happen given what I know about you now. :) 19:26:38 *schme* googles das keyboard 19:26:43 beach, extremely categorical and stubborn? You got me all figured out! 19:27:08 -!- kidd1 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 19:27:14 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@141.76.49.58] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:27:24 schme, mechanical switches. 100E from Germany for the euro version. 19:27:40 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.138.211] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:27:40 I see. 19:27:41 tic: I suspect you will mellow as you spend more time on #lisp. 19:27:44 It's a normal keyboard ? 19:28:13 schme, yes, but with mechanical switches instead of the rubber membranes that dry up on you. 19:28:20 Ok.. 19:28:23 schme: Athas didn't ask permission to take over Climacs. He just did. You can do the same. 19:28:27 schme, lasts longer, and the feeling you get. Oh my. 19:28:39 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.15] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:28:44 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.8.113] has joined #lisp 19:28:46 schme, getdigital.de anyways. eura layout, ultimate version. 19:28:57 haha. 19:28:58 Ok. 19:29:02 I'll check it out. 19:29:10 -!- topito-away [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:29:24 I thought the argument for Model M-style keyboards was stupid ("they're noisy!"), but it's kinda like s-exps. 19:29:48 I have my eyes set on the kinesis though :) 19:30:20 beach: Well it's on my list. So someday/maybe :) 19:31:09 Anyone can tell me a still maintained GUI package for (c)lisp? Except: cells-gtk, LTK (since those don't work for me). 19:31:33 Ijeroj__: lgtk doesn't work for you? 19:32:02 Ijeroj__: Many people also use McCLIM 19:32:10 lgtk = ltk? 19:32:27 Hmm, I'll try that one out. Thanks for the info. 19:33:09 hm. I wouldn't call it still maintained though 19:33:41 Well, its cool enough if there's actually still people using it. 19:33:42 schme: I recommend the kinesis. It solves some of the emacs pinky issues and puts the parens closer to the home row. 19:33:57 The CLiki entry kind of seems to have a few that are like... dead. 19:33:58 ahaas: Well I already have the parens on the home row ;) 19:34:08 ahaas: But ya. I hear good good things about it. 19:34:27 schme, I've actually mapped äö to () in Vim for the Lisp filetype. I never write those characters in Lisp code anyway. 19:34:39 Ijeroj__: when you say (c)lisp, what do you mean? 19:35:22 A GUI toolkit for lisp - in particular the clisp implementation. 19:35:42 ltk is good (not lgtk). TK bindings for lisp 19:35:54 Ijeroj__: what are your reasons for being attached to CLISP? 19:35:55 Ijeroj__: well, for what platform? LTK is about as easy as it gets. it is all uphill from there. 19:35:57 LTK doesn't work though :( 19:35:58 tic: That's not a bad idea! 19:36:09 oh 19:36:19 beach: I am not. It is however the only one working on Windows. 19:36:24 hypno: Windows. 19:36:32 on windows, CAPI for LispWorks is pretty good. 19:37:04 Ijeroj__: Fair enough. Thought I am always surprised to know there are still people using Windows. 19:37:45 schme, Yes! embrace the light! C-x C-c vim 19:37:49 beach: Only one computer, and I am tired of booting into linux whenever I want to code :) 19:38:02 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:38:11 Speaking of the devil... 19:38:18 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:40 Xach: Hmm, isn't LispWorks non-free? 19:39:24 it is a commercial implementation yes, but there is the excellent Personal Edition which is free to use for noncommercial use. 19:40:32 This may be a silly question, but... Since Allegro uses a fixed heap layout, why not find out what layout it uses and build SBCL with that layout? If it works for them, it should work for us. 19:40:34 Hmm, I'll give it a try. 19:40:49 Now how do I get rid of the vertical scrollbar in my application panes? 19:41:11 Personal doesn't give you clim2.0 though 19:41:17 Ijeroj__: Yeah. It's also a pretty good Lisp implementation with a mature GUI system that's been used to develop commercial products. 19:41:21 tic: :) 19:41:53 I need to buy a new CPU. Are there any specs that are particularly relevant with regards to running SBCL? 19:42:15 all mainstream CPUs these days are 64-bit, so I guess no. 19:42:17 ahaas: I'm not sure what might be faster, but a core 2 duo is really really fast. 19:42:18 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 19:42:23 Xach: why isn't your lzw stuff isn't in salza2? 19:42:24 Xach: I just hope it can cope with slime. 19:42:48 Ijeroj__: it can. it also comes with its own development environment that in some ways is superior to slime. 19:43:04 tayssir [n=user@ip503c4d9b.speed.planet.nl] has joined #lisp 19:43:06 slyrus_: there is no reason to include it. 19:43:13 slyrus_: can you suggest one? 19:43:17 Xach: Sounds like fun. Thanks for the info. 19:43:22 tic,Xach: Thanks. 19:44:20 Xach: it would seem to make sense to include it there so folks (like me) could reuse it without, say, grabbing it from skippy 19:44:20 Wombat1 [n=willy@216-31-242-4.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:46 but I'm almost done with my own implementation, so it won't save me this time. 19:45:09 slyrus_: salza2 isn't a generic repo for compression algorithms, it's just for the zlib/deflate/gzip family. 19:45:19 ok 19:45:32 which is really just one core data format and two minor wrappers for it. 19:45:57 an ironclad-for-compression might be neat, but salza2 isn't meant to be that 19:47:37 -!- luis changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language: , . common-lisp.net back in service, please email problems to admin@common-lisp.net. New: CFFI 0.10.3, series 2.2.10, trivial-garbage 0.17, usocket 0.4.0, ABCL 0.0.11 19:47:49 cffiiii! 19:48:34 aha 19:48:50 when was series 2.2.10 released? 19:48:56 Browsing source 1 - #lisp 0 19:51:48 Xach: that new release.sh script makes it too easy. :-) 19:57:37 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.187.136] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:59:12 -!- gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:59:45 gonzojive [n=red@fun.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:00:11 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:00:13 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.218] has joined #lisp 20:00:19 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@adsl-69-208-68-4.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 20:00:21 -!- vy [n=user@88.224.71.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:01:01 -!- adeht is now known as _adeht 20:07:08 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:08:28 ths_ [n=ths@X769c.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 20:11:33 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 20:11:37 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:11:47 Evening. 20:12:40 hello brill 20:14:11 eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:15:33 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 20:15:57 xMilesTegx [n=Spune@c-69-137-224-211.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:17:19 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.182.218] has quit [] 20:20:31 stupid question: but is it really considered good style to use a KEYWORD-type as a parameter? 20:21:38 hypno: i don't understand the question. 20:21:44 as, say, in: (foo "blah blah" :output :stream), here :output is a &KEY argument, and :stream is the argument. 20:21:49 hypno: no. 20:21:52 it is not bad style. 20:22:11 i find it quite uggly for some reason. 20:22:24 you have a few options in that case. 20:22:29 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 20:22:31 1. like it 2. lump it 20:22:59 hypno: what might you consider as a less-ugly alternative? 20:23:01 well, it can be a little visually confusing when trying to differentiate between keywords and arguments 20:23:03 OPEN-FILE uses that style, so it's option 1 20:23:06 but it does seem to be the preferred style 20:23:36 I sometimes quote the value-keyword for visual disambiguation 20:23:44 hypno: Sometimes it makes sense to use ':foo to make it explicitly that you're using the keyword in a symbol context, and not as a designator for something. 20:23:49 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:51 cmm: i've seen that in a few places, but not often. 20:24:24 Xach: well, (foo "blah" :output 'stream) would seems better? 20:24:25 Hrm. Now why does Vim reset *PACKAGE* when executing a Lisp script? 20:24:30 i'm not quite clear why :foo is preferred over 'foo for symbol parameters / keyword argument values 20:24:46 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:24:56 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:24:57 Xach: I think I outgrew that convention together with the tendency to use keywords in LOOP :) 20:24:59 hypno: that adds the additional cost of comparing symbol-names, or of exporting all the options. 20:25:52 locklace: Any symbol can be used in fact. &key allows that. 20:25:53 Xach: hmm. KEYWORD lookup is made more cheaply somehow? what do you mean by exporting all the options? 20:25:53 locklace, symbols are interned in their respective packages. if you test for a symbol in a function, you have to use exactly that symbol when passing it from outside the package. something like foo:thesymbol 20:26:29 *tic* got bitten by that thanks to a too-strict hash-table :TEST in cl-ldap. 20:26:37 ah, good point 20:27:03 hypno: do you have a good understanding about how the reader works and what interning is for? 20:27:09 depending on what you use it for, symbols could work. say indices to a hash-table with :test 'equalp 20:27:09 hypno: Let's get specific, what is FOO in your case, what are keywords in question? 20:27:15 topo [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has joined #lisp 20:27:26 back 20:27:56 cmm: no. i'm a noob. 20:28:07 hypno, you should read The Idiot's Guide to Packages. 20:28:42 hypno, alternatively, try using CL-LDAP. You'll get it directly. :) ("hey, why doesn't this work? I send in the right symbols! Oh... wrong package.") 20:28:49 tcr: (sys:run-shell-command "/bin/ls" :output :stream), in lw for example. 20:28:59 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.4] has joined #lisp 20:29:16 tic: heh 20:29:24 hypno: well, the immediately relevant point is that after the code is read by the reader, it doesn't contain symbol names anymore. and no keyword names either. 20:30:17 -!- matimago- [n=t@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:30:20 hypno: so when you use :OUTPUT in your source, it doesn't need to be "looked up" after it has been read 20:31:10 hypno: It's not bad style. You should probably just accept that. 20:31:21 cmm: hmm. ok. it was :STREAM that was the source to my irritation tho. 20:31:24 hypno: if you could use any symbol named "OUTPUT" instead, the function would have to check that the name matches each time it's called, instead of basically one pointer comparison 20:31:26 hypno, here ya go http://www.flownet.com/gat/packages.pdf 20:31:32 -!- Spune [n=Spune@c-69-137-224-211.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:31:35 cmm, unless he uses modern mode! 20:32:04 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 20:32:24 tic: wasn't that the guide erik trashed to peaces on cll? :D 20:32:47 hypno, no idea. I like it. 20:32:47 hypno: tic: 20:32:54 ^--- whoa 20:33:13 Yes, Sir? 20:34:26 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-0.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:36:10 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:36:34 cmalune [n=cmalune@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:38:22 radetsky [n=dan@adsl-76-212-8-201.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:38:26 -!- ciscbrain [n=eugen@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:38:37 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["leaving"] 20:39:41 cmm: ok i think i understand you, albeit i think the "issue" i had was a bit different. using :OUTPUT as a keyword to the function (which is defined to take a keyword) is of course just fine. however, the function then takes another keyword, :STREAM as the parameter for :OUTPUT, hence we have two keywords after eachother. the "inconsistency" i find is that :OUTPUT is an aid in calling the function with proper arguments, but :STREAM beeing the argument br 20:40:09 You were cut off at ":STREAM beeing the argument br" 20:40:33 but :STREAM beeing the argument breaks the distinction and thus the aid. 20:40:54 Neat, I just got 4 copies of a personal message from someone on gmail. And it looks like it was duplicated within google (between 10.150.206.11 and mail-gx0-f18.google.com). Maybe nikodemus' issues aren't between google and sourceforge at all, but just google being stupid. 20:41:25 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:41:33 hypno: I understand where you are coming from, but the current conventional usage has solid technical reasons going for it. just quote the value-keyword until this stops bothering you :) 20:41:50 lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has joined #lisp 20:41:51 hypno, it's just so you don't have to bother w/ packages. 20:41:51 Can anyone explain why when I create a pathname with make-pathname in SBCL, it supplies a default :host, instead of leaving it empty? 20:42:14 hey guys, is there a mail transfer agent (for smtp/pop3/imap) written in lisp somewhere? or helpful libraries for send/receiving mail on a server setup as a mailserver? 20:42:16 urnick [n=uruser@197.144-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has joined #lisp 20:42:19 hypno: What would you use instead of :stream? 20:42:24 minion: tell cmalune about mel-base 20:42:25 cmalune: please see mel-base: mel-base is a Networking Library for handling E-Mails (Author: Jochen Schmidt). http://www.cliki.net/mel-base 20:42:27 rpg|away, because SBCL tries very hard to be CLHS-compliant 20:43:04 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@209.74.44.225] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:43:06 Fare: I can see that, but I'm having a lot of trouble figuring out how to merge-pathnames with a logical pathname default /without/ losing the host... 20:43:07 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:28 rpg|away, are you SURE you want to understand CL pathnames? It will cost you 2d6 in SAN. 20:43:29 -!- urnick [n=uruser@197.144-64-87.adsl-dyn.isp.belgacom.be] has quit [Client Quit] 20:43:30 BTW, I'm sorry about this dumb nick -- while I was away, someone else (Gabriel? ;-)) grabbed up my old nick... 20:44:05 Fare: It's worse than that --- I'm trying to make my asd-finder function portable over SBCL and ACL, which treat these very differently... 20:44:09 rpg|away, also, whatever your problem is, logical pathnames are probably the wrong answer. 20:44:37 especially if "portable" is in the same sentence. 20:44:39 Fare: that's just what happened to me! 20:44:44 Fare: My problem is trying to get home:lisp;foo to work on both linux (/home/rpg) and MacOS (/Users/rpg/) 20:44:49 unfortunately, I rolled boxcars. 20:45:00 rpg|away: you can't use LPNs portably across implementations. 20:45:18 rpg: abandon all hope, ye who enter here 20:45:27 tcr: a somewhat made up example would be: (foo :x :23 :y :45) vs (foo :x 23 :y 45). i think 'STREAM would seem nicer considering symbols carry meaning in CL (afaik) and is thus symbolic for something and doesnt break the aid when you have multiple arguments as in (foo :foo :bar :zoo :doo :boo :koo) 20:45:32 ep0ch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 20:45:51 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E44155.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:46:16 http://bash.org/?767138 20:46:18 cmm: i see. i will swallow the convention and smile at the camera then. :) 20:47:00 dthomp [n=dat@c-24-21-28-103.hsd1.or.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:18 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47FE4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:48:41 chandler: thanks 20:48:53 hypno: did you get the point about packages and what's special about keyword symbols? 20:49:11 I'm simply trying to figure out what to supply as the :host argument to make-pathname to get something that will cause merge-pathnames to pick up the host from the default-pathname, rather than from the *default-pathname-defaults*... 20:49:39 I suppose what I could do for my degenerate case is simply translate the logical pathname at the top of my function and then wash my hands of it.... 20:49:48 vy [n=user@88.224.71.1] has joined #lisp 20:50:16 rpg|away, truename is your friend (kind of). 20:50:24 rpg|away: to answer your question about MAKE-PATHNAME, the host is supposed to default to the host in the DEFAULTS argument, and DEFAULTS defaults to a pathname whose host is the host in *DEFAULT-PATHNAME-DEFAULTS*. 20:51:04 rpg|away: (make-pathname :host (pathname-host some-pathname)) should work. 20:51:15 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:52:09 er 20:52:11 strike that 20:53:00 nothing requires an implementation to produce a pathname with NIL for the host, which is what you'd need for MERGE-PATHNAMES to fill the host using the host in the second argument. 20:53:12 locklace: probably not - i have yet to read the idiots guide. 20:53:28 *Fare* has a new convoluted patch for ecl and cl-launch that may just work! (works in at least one case) 20:53:39 hypno: Your problem seems to be that your mental picture of the parsing of &key parameters is somehow based on keywords; it isn't. 20:53:40 -!- ep0ch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [] 20:53:45 Fare, "quick! it compiles! ship it!" 20:54:19 hypno: (And :23 and :42 are token which are not meaningfully defined by the standard) 20:54:26 tokens 20:54:29 kreuter: You mean, even if I call (make-pathname :host nil ...) the implementation is licensed to override that nil/ 20:54:45 *rpg|away* is having trouble with his typing... 20:54:58 *Fare* starts running the full test-suite 20:55:10 tic, if you want an unofficial release, you have my email :) 20:55:48 chandler: it seems this lib is for a pop3 server, are there any available for a SMTP server, as in are there any lisp programs resembling exim ? 20:55:58 cmalune: no idea, sorry 20:56:02 (new to the whole mail transfer thing) 20:56:13 Fare, in a twisted way, I should probably do that as I've squeezed in ECL into Vim, but on the other hand I'm still struggling to make Vim accept its new overlord. 20:56:35 tcr: um, hang on. (defun foo (&key x) x) cant accept something else than (foo :x 23) or (foo 23), or what do you mean? 20:56:39 rpg|away: I believe that's conforming, yes. in particular, "Whenever a pathname is constructed the components may be canonicalized if appropriate." 20:56:46 cmalune: there's cl-smtp 20:56:54 cmalune: Yes, there is. Look on H4ns blog, I think he blogged once about how to send mails from within CL. I think there's also cl-smtp.) 20:57:15 tcr: but those are smtp client functions right? 20:57:29 tcr: i'm looking for smtp server functionality 20:57:45 or am i just confused 20:57:47 cmalune: Oh, I'm sorry, I didn't read carefully. 20:59:02 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:59:05 cmalune: not sure, but i think franz has some smtp-stuff on their site (an - incomplete - server implementation)... 20:59:15 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:45 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 21:00:45 kreuter, Fare: Thanks to both of you. I think in this case I can duck the problem by simply translating the logical pathname at the top of my function, so that I never merge logical pathnames. 21:01:08 -!- rpg|away is now known as rg 21:01:25 *rg* at least now has a normal nick.../ 21:01:31 rg: register it. 21:01:50 pkhuong: I registered rpg, but it seems to get poached anyway. 21:02:01 or just use a longer nick... :) 21:02:17 rg: If you registered it, and you remember your password, you can reclaim the nick. 21:02:32 -!- rg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:02:32 rg: you can ghost the thief away 21:03:20 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:03:55 rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:04:33 hypno, right i'll check it out 21:04:38 Now I need only figure out how to bridge between ACL and SBCL's interpretations of DIRECTORY... 21:06:08 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 21:06:56 rpg_: cl-fad? 21:09:13 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:09:28 -!- elurin [n=user@81.213.203.109] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:09:29 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:10:44 stassats`: Thanks, but actually it's simpler than that --- when I get a directory, I simply need to follow the more-restrictive SBCL notion of supplying a :name :wild... 21:10:47 PissedNumlock [i=resteven@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 21:12:58 OK, *that* was gruesome, but it is done now... 21:13:11 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:13:56 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:15:10 rpg_: /quote ns ghost rpg 21:15:38 -!- rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:15:44 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:16:36 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:03 rpg_ [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:17:36 chandler: that was exciting --- for some reason my attempt to do that killed my connection... 21:17:50 that shouldn't happen! 21:18:16 hello can anybody help me please? 21:18:51 rpg_: maybe you ghosted yourself (rpg_), not rpg. 21:19:11 topo: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html 21:19:27 ok thanks 21:19:32 jso [n=user@151.159.200.15] has joined #lisp 21:19:35 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [] 21:20:31 -!- vy [n=user@88.224.71.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:21:46 chandler, pkhuong: thanks for helping me get that nick thing handled... 21:21:58 it doesn't look handled yet... 21:22:03 elurin [n=user@81.213.203.109] has joined #lisp 21:22:10 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-0c-f6-20-8c-57.k102.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 21:22:41 chandler: ha-ha, no it doesn't. Ghost command and identify seemed to work fine, but there's still something missing... 21:23:03 he's still got your nick, for starters 21:24:03 -!- rpg_ is now known as rpg 21:24:32 wow. that was ... time consuming... 21:25:00 not sure why 21:25:19 chandler: Probably my clumsiness. Anyway, now will turn off renaming as I go away... 21:25:28 thanks for the help. 21:26:03 I've found ghosting to be more effort than its worth.... unless I'm on a channel that requires that you be authenticated. 21:26:19 *chandler* actually turned on enforcement 21:27:08 Here? 21:27:11 kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 21:27:13 no, for my nickname 21:27:17 Ah. 21:27:25 That's the funny +e, yes? 21:27:31 it's a nickserv setting 21:27:53 /msg NickServ SET ENFORCE ON 21:28:00 or something like that 21:28:07 Yep. Yeah, luckily ERC takes care of that nonsense for me. Hrm... I should see about getting auto ghosting taken done at login. 21:28:34 enforce is auto ghosting. I'm not sure what you're referring to 21:29:04 Yeah, until that last message I was a bit confused. I'm looking into it now. 21:29:30 -!- Ijeroj__ is now known as MHOOO 21:29:41 anyway, this is wanderingly into dangerously offtopic territory 21:29:47 gjvc [n=gjvc@chardonnay.extremis.net] has joined #lisp 21:29:50 offtopic! 21:30:10 :P 21:32:13 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:34:55 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #lisp 21:35:01 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:39:35 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 21:42:06 -!- jso [n=user@151.159.200.15] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:11 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@66.89.113.194.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 21:42:18 jso [n=user@151.159.200.15] has joined #lisp 21:42:29 pjb [n=t@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:43:55 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@66.89.113.194.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:44:19 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.8.113] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:45:20 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.42.77] has joined #lisp 21:47:05 jikanter [n=jordan@dsl093-114-131.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:24 what does "cannot change-class objects into class metaobjects" in sbcl mean? 21:51:35 -!- jikanter [n=jordan@dsl093-114-131.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 21:51:45 it means that you can't take a STANDARD-OBJECT and change its class to turn it into a CLASS. 21:51:48 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 21:52:23 pkhuong: too sad... just a bit too late :/ 21:55:21 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-132-92-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:55:37 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-0-116.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:59 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-253-20.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 22:03:35 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-229-68.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 22:03:56 fogjog [n=chatzill@adsl-69-106-178-74.dsl.frs2ca.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:14 billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:33 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.7] has joined #lisp 22:05:43 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:07:10 -!- billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:07:41 billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:07:53 -!- billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 22:09:07 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 22:09:10 billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:18 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit ["leaving"] 22:09:33 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:09:41 -!- wchogg_ is now known as wchogg 22:09:52 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-145-181.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has left #lisp 22:11:53 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:12:01 rottcodd_ [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:27 -!- billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:16:11 billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:16:23 -!- billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 22:17:01 -!- topo [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:32 -!- neurogeek_ [n=neurogee@201.208.73.206] has quit [Client Quit] 22:18:32 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)"] 22:18:42 -!- epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has quit [] 22:21:26 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:56 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:30:34 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@3.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:31:38 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:32:11 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:32:21 zickzackv [n=zickzack@e178151220.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 22:39:18 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:40:04 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:00 S11001001 [n=sirian@74-137-146-187.dhcp.insightbb.com] has joined #lisp 22:41:03 -!- Lau_of_DK [n=Lau@90.185.128.112] has quit ["May I recommend to you: Arch!"] 22:49:09 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 22:49:19 -!- tst___ [n=Tim@p4FD2BE24.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:51:45 JohnnyL [i=JohnnyL@ool-182ddad4.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 22:53:07 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5221a22f40f5cf22] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:55:46 ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has joined #lisp 22:56:34 -!- housel [n=housel@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:56:45 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:58:41 -!- fogjog [n=chatzill@adsl-69-106-178-74.dsl.frs2ca.pacbell.net] has left #lisp 22:58:42 -!- zickzackv [n=zickzack@e178151220.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 22:59:35 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 23:00:51 -!- dboswell [n=dave@208.177.146.111.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:02 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:01:55 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483C5AC.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:07:55 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:10:54 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:14:47 -!- rpg [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 23:23:31 disumu [n=disumu@p57A24DDD.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:23:51 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:26:16 -!- pjb [n=t@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:26:40 -!- chandler is now known as randomluls 23:26:48 -!- randomluls is now known as chandler 23:34:15 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@3-008.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:40:56 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-105-4-59.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 23:43:23 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 23:46:27 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 23:46:54 epoch [n=K-I-S-S@p3m/member/epoch] has joined #lisp 23:47:33 sctb [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:48:41 -!- kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 23:50:21 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:54:02 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:54:16 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A24DDD.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 23:55:19 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.42.77] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:55:45 -!- hypno [n=hypno@impulse2.gothiaso.com] has quit ["leaving"] 23:56:47 adicarlo [i=adam@66-234-56-82.nyc.cable.nyct.net] has joined #lisp 23:57:04 hi all 23:57:53 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:58:08 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 23:59:01 adicarlo pasted "add-direct-subclass" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69425 23:59:18 can anyone explain what I'm doing wrong in that paste?