00:01:00 that was a cheap shot, picking on the hash tables 00:03:03 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F80A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:04:43 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:06:41 photon2 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 00:11:56 -!- petere [n=peter@209-6-234-57.c3-0.sbo-ubr3.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 00:12:52 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:17:19 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:18:09 i had a mac for 48 hours, before it crashed and died (a cheap G3 I put tiger on; no wonder it cost $50) 00:18:33 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 00:18:37 dkcl` [n=dkcl@93.66.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 00:18:42 enjoyed it tremendously though 00:19:28 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:19:42 heh 00:19:55 I've had one for four years now; it remains non-explodey 00:23:09 -!- pjb [n=user@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:23:09 -!- matimago` [n=user@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:23:15 matimago` [n=user@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:09 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-1.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:24:19 photon3 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 00:27:17 -!- photon2 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:27:59 -!- photon3 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has left #lisp 00:28:12 photon3 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 00:29:00 -!- photon3 is now known as photon 00:33:18 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has left #lisp 00:33:45 hi how can i write an s-expression to a stream? 00:33:56 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:34:18 krumholt: PRINT is one possible way 00:34:36 clogged [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:34:59 i want sbcl+slime+hunchentoot for my newly installed ubuntu. how do i do it? 00:35:05 Xach, thanks format can only write strings? 00:35:29 krumholt: one of the control characters for format will do much the same as print 00:36:17 clogged: how new do you want SBCL to be? 00:36:20 krumholt: incorrect. 00:36:32 qbg: newest, why not? 00:36:50 ok i did sudo apt-get and sbcl is on its way 00:36:53 clogged: download sbcl, download slime, download hunchentoot and its dependencies, load hunchentoot, start hunchentoot. 00:37:08 clogged: The SBCL in the repository is a bit old 00:37:08 clogged: that'll probably get you a scary antique that doesn't work 00:37:15 (unless they've improved things) 00:37:20 1.0.11.debian isn't so bad 00:37:28 ah, okay, it's improved 00:37:47 last time I tried I got an ancient .8.x with threading that didn't work 00:37:58 You can get hunchentoot using ASDF-INSTALL 00:38:16 (it said it had threading, but crashed if you were rude enough to actually ask it to launch a thread or anything 00:42:28 ths_ [n=ths@X4426.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:44:48 clogged: try to stick to asdf-install. I installed hunchentoot at home (standlone server with no internet) and had to make several trips to get missing deps 00:46:11 get 1.0.11 and use it to bootstrap the bleeding edge sbcl 00:47:09 rsynnott: I have 0.8.5 (IIRC) running with threads 00:47:28 and another earlier 0.8.1 (IIRC) with no threads 00:47:35 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:47:38 -!- aack [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has left #lisp 00:48:15 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:51:01 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:53:11 -!- ExtreTux [n=Angel@157.Red-88-9-236.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has left #lisp 00:53:54 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.248] has joined #lisp 00:55:42 -!- ths [n=ths@X5dc7.x.pppool.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:55:43 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 00:55:44 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 01:01:51 eeek, it's an hour ago 01:01:57 oops, sorry, wrong channel 01:01:57 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 01:05:23 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16A07C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:06:08 defn [i=tao@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-802ea3466ad792ca] has joined #lisp 01:06:20 lisp is neat 01:06:28 :D 01:06:50 just finished working on some of the examples in slime -- still kind of unsure how all of it is working underneath the hood 01:07:01 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.96.127] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:07:01 but im finally able to mix some of my own brew 01:07:21 defn: Which examples? 01:07:30 i was just working through On Lisp 01:07:37 the mp3 database, etc. 01:07:46 err is that practial common lisp 01:07:52 the latter, i think 01:08:02 Sounds like PCL 01:08:08 *defn* nods 01:08:10 it is 01:08:23 disumu [n=disumu@p57A2618F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:08:33 i kind of like looking at existing little apps in lisp and trying them in different contexts for myself 01:08:51 do you know if there is anywhere in particular i could find a lot of example code outside of a book 01:09:06 prefereably projects of a size that would be approachable for a beginner 01:09:14 preferably* 01:10:07 -!- dkcl` is now known as dkcl 01:13:10 qbg: any suggesgtions? 01:13:13 suggestions* 01:13:17 If you are looking for a simple program to write, you could try writing a simple symbolic differentiation program 01:14:05 this is actualy -the- lisp program 01:14:29 I remember when I first saw how you do it, I was amazed... 01:17:09 defn: read sources to libraries, specially test-cases 01:17:30 everybody messes around with guis and stuff; just grab a toolkit and dig in 01:17:46 i wrote a side-scroller in ... CLX! 01:18:26 animated pixmap of airplane (3 different images), a cheap star-field and basic scrolling 01:22:31 I wrote a simple flash card program in lisp to help me study for my spanish class. 01:24:26 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@dsl081-166-030.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [] 01:25:55 vixey: could you exaplain? 01:26:08 explain* 01:26:35 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:28:43 defn: Symbolic computation (and by relation, AI) is the classic use of lisp. 01:32:05 qbg: ah 01:32:22 so maybei should write a calculator to complete the square or something simple like that 01:32:27 svcasvasv [n=photon@p54A9D077.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:32:40 -!- svcasvasv [n=photon@p54A9D077.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:33:17 i think a gui will have you confront the underlying OS API pretty quickly 01:33:52 and nothing motivates like seeing your Lisp respond to time/signal/events from GUI interaction, time, network input or signals 01:34:06 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 01:34:10 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:34:24 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 01:35:07 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:35:47 fusss: If you use something like McCLIM, I don't think you are going to confront the underlying OS API much 01:35:55 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:36:32 Stupid newbie question: Every example I've seen of mapcar has no argument other than the list you apply a function against. Not possible with a function that requires two arguments? 01:36:50 mapcar can take more lists 01:36:55 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 01:37:00 They become additional arguments 01:37:16 But if the other required argument is not a list? 01:37:20 Agu10 [n=Agu10@200.115.242.215] has joined #lisp 01:37:28 fuck lisp!!!!!!!!! 01:37:47 wol: ? 01:38:00 wol: then you could use sequence's map 01:38:22 wol: if you mean that argument is constant, you can make a circular list out of it, or write a closure as the argument to mapcar 01:38:29 fuck you 01:38:31 -!- matimago` [n=user@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:38:36 fuck your lisp language 01:38:41 fuck this old language 01:38:42 Agu10, 01:38:47 haha 01:38:47 Assume a list of objects and a string. You just want to ask whether any object has a slot containing an equivalent string. 01:38:48 e.g. (mapcar #'+ '(1 2 3) '#9=(1 . #9#)) yields (2 3 4) 01:38:48 u see 01:38:52 (mapcar #'cons '(1 2 3) (4 5 6)) => ((1 . 4) (2 . 5) (3 . 6)) 01:39:00 vixey, u are everywhere 01:39:01 Agu10, if you talk like that you will probably get banned from the network, so please stop for your own good 01:39:10 ok 01:39:10 wol: that sounds like FIND/POSITION/MEMBER with a :KEY 01:39:17 im bored 01:39:32 Agu10, come to oz then 01:40:09 Thanks. Just wanted to make sure that I wasn't missing something obvious with mapcar. 01:40:29 (position string list-of-objects :key #'slot-accessor) 01:41:01 or if you want the object and not its index (likely), use FIND with the same args 01:41:37 The later is actually true in this case. 01:43:37 I'm looking at a situation that suggested nested objects, similar to an org chart. Company has a list of departments. Each department may have subdepartments or just employees, etc. 01:44:08 Unliimted depth of potential subdepartments. 01:44:57 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:47:07 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:47:37 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:47:51 -!- clogged [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:48:13 elecan [n=tehjrw@p54A9D077.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:49:40 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:49:53 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:50:50 -!- elecan [n=tehjrw@p54A9D077.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 01:54:57 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:56:44 kpreid - In your circular list example, why 9? 01:57:30 wol: I chose it to be unrelated to the numbers appearing in the input and output 01:58:16 I there a canonical way to do the reverse of split-sequence? 01:58:38 persi: You mean concatenate two sequences? 01:58:49 format "~{~A~^separator~}" for strings 01:59:18 kpreid: ahhh. format. I should have figured that one. Thanks much. 02:00:47 Thanks. 02:01:04 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.193.254] has joined #lisp 02:06:45 zu22 [n=ubuntu@unaffiliated/zu22] has joined #lisp 02:11:23 -!- Nshag [i=user@99.a2c-250-158.astra2connect.com] has quit ["Quitte"] 02:17:18 what is ~%? 02:17:22 (in a format string 02:17:26 ) 02:17:29 New line 02:17:33 ah, thought so, thanks 02:17:45 how about ~a versus ~d 02:18:02 is that like in c? %d? 02:18:58 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_c.htm 02:19:36 Specifically http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_cda.htm 02:19:43 and http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/22_cbb.htm 02:23:59 cool website 02:24:11 *defn* clicks and absorbs rapidbly 02:24:37 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:25:31 The hyper spec is very useful 02:26:09 I wonder 02:26:13 clhs: ~d 02:26:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/22_cbb.htm 02:26:40 Yeah, just ask the specbot 02:26:59 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A2618F.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 02:27:40 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.248] has quit [] 02:28:58 -!- kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 02:31:01 r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has joined #lisp 02:32:03 clhs: macar 02:32:03 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for macar. 02:32:19 clhs: defmacro 02:32:19 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_defmac.htm 02:34:35 kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 02:34:41 binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.244.158] has joined #lisp 02:35:12 -!- dalton [n=id@201-68-160-68.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit ["EasyScript: [www.EasyScript.com.br]"] 02:39:20 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.193.254] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:45:21 hey 02:45:29 is there a lisp command in sbcl to get ones own ip address? 02:45:33 how could i implement bibones algorithm in lisp ??? 02:45:46 factorial + fibonacci = bibones 02:47:28 codeFiend [n=anton@c-71-198-85-191.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:49:46 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student166-32.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 02:51:52 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-44-197.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:53:46 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:54:01 (apply (port:compose #'factorial #'fibonnaci) args) 02:54:48 medic33 [n=phil@12-210-144-200.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 02:56:28 cgo [n=cgoellne@adsl-065-007-140-208.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 02:58:06 haiwei [n=haiwei@61.51.75.129] has joined #lisp 02:58:09 -!- cgo [n=cgoellne@adsl-065-007-140-208.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 02:58:54 -!- kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["bye"] 02:59:21 binarycodes__ [n=sujoy@59.93.255.238] has joined #lisp 03:02:23 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 03:08:16 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:10:14 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.196.52] has joined #lisp 03:10:31 dthomp [n=dat@71.237.217.129] has joined #lisp 03:11:25 disumu [n=disumu@p57A2618F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:11:45 -!- binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.244.158] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:19:31 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:25:54 clogged [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 03:26:34 code as data, is that true for all languages that lets you pass functions to other functions? or dos it mean having access to the abstract syntax tree? 03:26:59 both, if you like. 03:27:42 there's also "data as code" :) 03:29:34 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.196.52] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 03:31:06 -!- dthomp [n=dat@71.237.217.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:32:14 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:33:53 -!- binarycodes__ [n=sujoy@59.93.255.238] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:37:46 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-248-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 03:37:46 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit ["leaving"] 03:44:01 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:11 jso [n=jso@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 03:49:32 -!- jso [n=jso@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Client Quit] 03:49:52 jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 03:52:59 -!- clogged [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 03:53:26 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A2618F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 03:53:46 -!- Agu10 [n=Agu10@200.115.242.215] has quit ["Saliendo"] 03:58:08 hefner pasted "pseudo-factor experiment fun" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69223 04:00:09 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:00:53 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:07:58 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-248-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:09:59 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-50-169.man.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:10:03 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-50-169.man.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:12:46 dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 04:20:56 -!- jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [] 04:21:43 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:22:48 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.204.102] has joined #lisp 04:23:24 r2q2` [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:51 minion: chant 04:23:51 MORE VAGUEOSITY 04:26:32 -!- r2q2` [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:33:02 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:34:04 Are there any drakma users? I've noticed every http request results in a new session - is there a way to maintain the session between calls? Passsing in the same "cookie-jar" doesn't seem to do it. . . . 04:49:49 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:56:50 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:59:59 -!- wol [n=wol@c-98-207-129-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:01:45 -!- jso [n=user@host-9-143-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:06:06 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47E19.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 05:06:17 facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has joined #lisp 05:07:15 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47E19.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:09:21 -!- facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:09:44 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A05A7.versanet.de] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:10:03 facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has joined #lisp 05:14:46 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:17:31 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E470E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:17:52 -!- facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has quit ["Bye"] 05:27:00 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.166.54] has joined #lisp 05:28:32 thrain][ [n=dpn@69.169.148.47.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:39 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.166.54] has quit [Client Quit] 05:31:00 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:32 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:32:11 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:33:42 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E47E19.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:34:48 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:35:08 dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 05:35:25 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:36:36 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:33 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 05:41:25 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-33-193-228.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Connection timed out] 05:43:10 Would anyone mind answering a couple of questions/chatting with me about Lisp for a bit? 05:43:41 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:47:40 Jordan_: what do you need? 05:47:47 mornin' 05:48:09 Jordan_: This is a bit of an odd place to chat about lisp, but go ahead :) 05:48:36 :) 05:50:07 easily the best summary of CL: http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp 05:50:09 wow! 05:50:18 Well, I'm in a bit of a tricky position... I've asked similar questions before, and I think I came off offensive, because in answer I got reamed pretty hard 05:50:30 So now I'm a bit paranoid...! 05:51:26 dude, please! 05:52:28 just ask :-) 05:54:23 Alright. So I've gotten pretty interested in Lisp, because the syntax is so consistent and the macros seem new and awesome 05:56:03 But I'm a tad worried about things like function names 05:56:27 ? 05:57:05 I come from a Java/C# background, where everything is organized into classes, even if they don't need an instance to be invoked 05:57:27 me too (C++/COM) 05:57:38 organizationally, it seems to make sense in my head 05:57:48 (i.e. if I want to join 2 strings, String.Join() ) 05:58:05 alright 05:58:20 but Common Lisp has a nice, huge, standard library of functions 05:58:34 that all seem to be "at the same level," if that makes sense 05:58:36 it's not huge, it's tiny compared to Java and C# 05:58:51 Jordan_: Are you using SLIME? 05:58:56 yes 05:59:08 Jordan_: Then it's easy to lookup functions, so yer all set ;) 05:59:16 but what kinda confuses me is conventions 05:59:24 let me ask you a question. if you had a Sequence class, would you find it acceptable to join them as sequence1.join(sequence2);? 05:59:38 Yes 05:59:40 well 05:59:59 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:00:01 in lisp you have a join functions that takes different types of arguments 06:00:08 Jordan_: What conventions? 06:00:23 (join string1 string), (join sequence1 sequence2), etc. 06:00:40 it's a legitimate questions 06:01:08 like, sometimes the names are quite verbose: STRING-NOT-EQUAL for example 06:01:25 but sometimes they seem quite cryptic, like PROGN 06:01:53 sometimes they are very similar, but do different things: EQL, EQUAL 06:02:12 this is the result of having a long heritage. the short cryptic names are throw backs to early Lisps that had to count character-length in names. 06:02:39 alright, so the more cryptic ones have just been around awhile? 06:02:47 yes 06:03:26 would "best practices" for my own code be to err on the side of verbosity, then? 06:03:41 if the equality confuses you, you can greate a generic function, called, say equal-p (not to be confused with equalp) and it will take various types of arguments and compare them with respect to a comparison operator that makes sense 06:04:05 Would that not be "evil"? 06:04:12 no, you will stop seeing the "short" names if you approach with without prejudice 06:04:30 *pinterface* points to http://www.nhplace.com/kent/PS/EQUAL.html for why there are so many different equality functions. 06:05:10 who cares if it's evil. you're writing code to get things done, not win a popularity contest. 06:05:12 I don't want to cop-out and start aliasing all the function names I don't like, I know that's not correct 06:05:20 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.204.102] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 06:05:27 -!- kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:05:28 but I guess it does bug me :( 06:05:29 but you will soon discover why things are the way they are and you will stop obsessing over tiny details 06:05:58 equality testing is an overloaded operation, just think about it 06:06:08 is Foo equal to FOO? 06:06:16 is #\C equal to "C"? 06:06:54 you can stick to using EQUALP and you will get away with allot (just not case sensitivity in strings ;-) 06:07:12 btw, what does that P stand for? I see that a lot in names 06:07:19 Predicate 06:08:05 there is also the unpronouncable Foo? convention. EQUAL? 06:09:09 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.204.102] has joined #lisp 06:09:09 someone should write a short text on converting C++/Java classes to Lisp 06:09:15 pretty straightforward process 06:09:37 that would be an interesting read for me 06:09:58 I converted a layout-manager from Javascript (hah!) to Lisp and 3/4 of the member variables where just scratches and local useless storage 06:10:11 again, you're right, things like naming conventions are a small detail; it was just something that jumped out because I'm new 06:10:30 Is there a good reference of the library that's sorted into types? 06:10:44 Like "click here for functions that operate on strings" 06:10:54 minion: clhs? 06:10:55 clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS . 06:10:56 yes, the HyperSpec, the only free reference actually 06:11:27 http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Front/Contents.htm 06:11:49 Jordan_: Incidentally hitting C-c C-d h in SLIME is your friend with the hyperspec 06:12:18 great, let me try that out 06:16:11 Jordan_: I'm writing a one page explanation for ya, 5 mins. 06:16:15 hmm, sorry for being dumb... how do I find the function list for (for example) string in the hyperspec? I see it has a general sort of definition of the class, but I can't really find the "API" 06:16:50 clhs 16.2 06:16:50 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for 16.2. 06:18:36 thanks :) 06:19:51 lispdoc.com provides a fairly decent search of the hyperspec, though the hyperspec's symbol index is pretty nice, too 06:21:48 fusss pasted "CLOS elevator pitch" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69226 06:22:16 pinterface: thanks, this is neat 06:22:25 that short text has an example of converting a normal Lisp class to a PERSISTANT class, serialized to disk, by type JUST one extra letter! 06:22:33 unbelievable 06:23:19 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4405B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 06:23:26 fusss: checking it out now, thanks 06:24:24 there are about 10 defenitions in the C++-like version, and 5 in the Lisp for the exact number of features 06:24:26 anyone make a slime cheat sheet? 06:24:32 like a card i can print out and put on my desk 06:24:34 fusss there is also elephant 06:24:54 xristos: the example was for elephant :-) 06:25:00 a lisp reference card would also be cooL! 06:25:10 zu22: both are available 06:25:19 google it though 06:26:52 kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 06:27:05 for CL: http://www.inf.ufsc.br/~func/cl-quick-reference.pdf 06:27:10 there is a MUCH better version 06:27:48 SLIME cheat sheet available at C-h b 06:28:31 fusss: neat 06:28:34 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:29:27 Jordan_: yep, change defclass to defpclass and your instance will survive a power failure :-) just a small concession to make up for that bad names ;-) 06:29:52 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 06:30:39 is that "out of the box," or part of a library? 06:31:17 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.204.102] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 06:31:20 just know that with java classes to be converted to clos. remove all the member methods and keep the member variables. of the member variables, if any are constants, then they can become a slot of class allocation, everything else becomes instance allocation. you wont need half of what remains, as they're used as counters, temps, etc. 06:31:32 Elephant library 06:31:35 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.204.102] has joined #lisp 06:31:45 appletizer [i=user@82-33-193-228.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 06:32:10 might as well be, supports all major Lisps that you would use for servers 06:32:13 -!- appletizer is now known as Guest83903 06:33:09 -!- Guest83903 is now known as appletizer 06:34:19 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-9-197.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 06:35:09 off to bed, enough LCD tan for the nite 06:35:27 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.17/2008082909]"] 06:35:29 good night, thanks for your help 06:36:09 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:36:21 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E470E7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:41:26 Well time for some tea then. 06:41:37 Thank you, schme 06:42:10 Ok :) 06:42:28 Jordan_: You have found PCL, no? 06:42:42 yes, though I'm not quite finished with it yet 06:42:50 -!- Zhivago__ is now known as Zhivago 06:43:35 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 06:45:38 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 06:45:40 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus_ 06:50:48 benny [n=benny@i577A0237.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:54:16 Goodnight all 06:54:35 -!- Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 06:54:49 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-45bc8ce67b5b1e79] has joined #lisp 06:55:58 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:56:03 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.204.102] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:57:32 FZ [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/fz] has joined #lisp 06:59:23 oh ok 07:09:10 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-45bc8ce67b5b1e79] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:15:00 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-759d9dafae55286a] has joined #lisp 07:16:24 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 07:21:41 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 07:25:41 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 07:26:36 I'm intrigued by fusss' idea, however I don't know what to convert for it not to become a toy example. 07:28:57 Any ideas for a _small_ and usable C++ lib/idea that uses the object system extensibly? 07:33:15 Is this where we are supposed to make jokes about "usable" combined with "C++"? ;) 07:33:49 This is where Xach thwaps me with a large book and tells me not to repeat former mistakes. 07:33:57 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E43FE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:09 But that would also be a possible outcome, yes. 07:35:54 Hahaha 07:36:05 [Head|Rest] [n=macosx@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 07:36:10 schme, maybe the app should be useful, not necessarily the code itself. In fact, the unusability of the C++ version is what I want to show. 07:37:51 I'd love to be of help.. but I don't think I've seen any C++ code in years :) 07:38:15 I'm thinking the Visitor pattern, but that's almost too easy. 07:38:22 besides, I've already done that. 07:39:11 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:48:11 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 07:48:20 benny` [n=benny@i577A0237.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:49:05 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A0237.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:50:35 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4405B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:53:02 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-759d9dafae55286a] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 07:54:39 -!- Archangel_13 [n=kevin@216-197-159-94.estv.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 07:55:57 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.15.172] has joined #lisp 07:58:21 LEMONODO 08:05:47 Zhivago_ [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.17] has joined #lisp 08:08:22 Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:09:20 creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 08:14:22 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:16:26 robyonrails [n=robyonra@host58-201-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:18:37 -!- Zhivago [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.17] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:18:53 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@61.51.75.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:20:24 haiwei [n=haiwei@221.219.128.225] has joined #lisp 08:26:54 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:34:54 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:35:22 hello lispers 08:36:30 -!- robyonrails [n=robyonra@host58-201-dynamic.49-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:40:13 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:46:58 Iskr [n=i@host84-83-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:51:35 user_ [n=user@p5492438C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:52:14 holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:53:13 -!- Iskr [n=i@host84-83-dynamic.54-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 08:55:37 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:57:25 -!- thrain][ [n=dpn@69.169.148.47.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [] 08:59:08 -!- enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:59:46 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2F568.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:00:06 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a1517a96afa6aeb8] has joined #lisp 09:00:33 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 09:02:38 is it common to use a virtual setf that sets >1 slot at the same time? 09:02:49 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-17-88.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 09:03:06 e.g. (defun set-size (foo width height) (setf (width foo) width) (setf (height foo) height)) 09:03:44 probe-file func returns true for directories too. Is there one only for file? 09:07:01 directories are files ? 09:07:50 tic: why not (defun (setf size) (width height foo) ...) ? 09:07:54 schme: check if arg is a valid file, not a directory. 09:08:18 tomoyuki28jp: I'm confused though. directories are valid files. 09:08:30 #'cl-fad:directory-exists-p returns true only for directories. 09:08:43 Hmm.. 09:09:39 pinterface: thanks for the info. uhm, using external lib is only the way? 09:09:46 stassats, more specifically, I'd like to do something like (setf (size window) width height). SETF takes >1 value? 09:10:13 it will be (setf (size window width) height) 09:10:46 not very good, yeah 09:10:48 That's a bit ugly. 09:10:55 How is that usually solved? 09:11:14 (defmethod set-size ((frame window-frame) width height) (setf ...) (setf ...)) ? 09:11:30 tomoyuki28jp: It's the easiest way. 09:11:40 (defun (setf size) (size foo) (setf width (car size)) (setf height (cdr size))) 09:12:00 pinterface: thanks! 09:12:45 tic: i thought you want "(setf ..)" function 09:13:08 stassats, I want idiomatic Lisp. :) 09:13:30 it's either set-size w h or setf '(w h) 09:14:38 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:14:54 (... is my conclusion, but I'd like to know what the prettiest solutios is, of course.) 09:15:37 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 09:16:06 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 09:16:08 it seems for me to be a matter of style 09:17:22 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.214.191] has joined #lisp 09:18:04 (set-size frame (width foo) (height foo)) vs (setf (size frame) (list (width foo) (height foo))) 09:18:12 (did I get that right?) 09:18:48 i can't think of any other sane solution 09:19:10 Mhm. The former is shorter, even though it feels slighly less Lispish. But I think I'll go for that. 09:19:15 Thanks. 09:23:31 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-011-158.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:24:55 mr_ank [n=ank@220-244-42-72.static.tpgi.com.au] has joined #lisp 09:25:20 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-088-067-011-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:35 clim has the notion of both 09:25:53 set-size* frame width height and set-size frame coord-seq 09:26:51 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-36-67.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit ["reboot: ubuntu-8.04 ==> ubuntu-8.10 .. crash-and-burn? .. brb."] 09:27:27 alright. 09:29:23 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-36-67.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 09:29:38 how about abstracting size: (setf (size frame) (make-size ...)) 09:30:38 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 09:30:42 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 09:30:46 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-17-88.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:31:47 it's good, but i doubt that you will need to change representation from cons someday 09:32:39 *pinterface* muses that there are two lispy way to do things: the first is to become paralyzed trying to think of the lispiest way to do it; the second is to just do it already. 09:33:01 heh 09:33:57 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F324.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:34:10 Trying to convert the Strategy Pattern from Java to CLOS. Not quite sure how to map the repaint() callback. 09:35:01 ...do it and wait when some lisper will shout "you are doing it wrong" 09:36:16 etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 09:36:42 Definitely. a generic function repaint that takes a frame on which I could define an :after method, maybe. but I don't know how I'd define it to fit my needs. 09:37:59 chris2 [n=chris@p5B169569.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:38:07 the real gurus manage to get paralyzed without any need for thinking 09:38:30 tic: with clos you get "callbacks" for free 09:39:30 -!- neomage [n=anon@c-98-216-105-88.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:41:08 stassats, I decided on (defgeneric repaint (graphics-context frame)) and have the plot-strategy inherit a graphics-context. Don't know if I like mixing those. What do you mean with the "callbacks for free"? 09:41:34 tic: what you said, :after methods 09:42:19 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 09:44:44 stassats, how about having the generic PAINT do the blitting, and me defining a :before method to do whatever I want to do? 09:44:58 *hmm* 09:46:19 tic: i'm not very good at clos, so i'll abstain from advice 09:46:47 *tic* continues hacking. 09:47:08 -!- kij`` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:47:26 kij`` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 09:48:04 nevertheless, i don't think that mapping java patterns to lisp is a good idea 09:48:17 pjb [n=t@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:20 nicolas_ [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:49:39 stassats: You should instead not take advantage of the flexibility of lisp and redesign the entire program? 09:49:40 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@152.pool85-54-94.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:49:48 -!- nicolas_ is now known as lam_fbx 09:50:23 vixey: who said about redesigning the entire program? 09:50:34 I did 09:50:42 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.15.172] has quit [] 09:50:47 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:50:54 stassats, no, not at all. what I want to do is how you'd implement the same idea in Lisp. 09:52:04 vixey: so if you have a program in java, why do you need to rewrite (not redesign) it in lisp? 09:53:05 stassats: I have no idea honestly, I'm not the one doing that 09:53:12 -!- pjb [n=t@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:53:14 pjb [n=t@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:54:25 vixey: so, i mean if you have to write a program in lisp in the first place, write it in lisp style, and when you need to rewrite a java program, don't do it 09:54:30 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-36-67.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [] 09:54:38 binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.208.178] has joined #lisp 09:54:55 I don't know what "lisp style" is, is that where you never used setf ? 09:55:16 I think I can program with any paradaigm or style in lisp that I chose 09:56:25 maybe he meant pure functional 09:56:43 because lisp is far from pure function 09:56:44 al 09:56:54 call it "lisp tradition" 09:57:35 I seem to have confused you guys. :) 09:58:51 <_deepfire> (setf (window-dimension w) (make-dimension width height) 09:59:02 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 09:59:16 <_deepfire> (defun make-dimension (x y) (cons x y)), as a possibility 09:59:50 <_deepfire> if x is related to y, just recognize it, and create an overarching datatype 10:01:31 -!- kij`` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:02:02 kij`` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 10:05:11 timor101 [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:05:19 vixey: I think lisp style can be defined as practical, multi-paradigm, concise and abstract. Probably the best book to study to aquire most of it would be SICP. 10:06:00 pjb, sorry I am used to schemers telling me never to use set! 10:06:10 *vixey* testing the water here .. 10:06:42 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@152.pool85-54-94.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:06:50 Ugh. This is just getting uglier and uglier. It's impossible to map the Swing sanely, too many built-in design patterns. 10:07:03 vixey, scheme != Common Lisp. 10:07:23 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 10:08:02 Meh. I guess I'll have to find something else to convert. 10:08:09 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 10:08:47 vasa [n=vasa@mm-37-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 10:09:00 map swing ? 10:09:02 vixey: multi-paradigm allows use of setf, when it's called for. In any case, multi-paradigm covers meta-programming, so most of the time you can abstract away uses of setf in a higher level language. 10:09:28 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.214.191] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:11:27 xristos, Java Swing. 10:11:46 yes btu what are you trying to do 10:12:23 __name__ [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 10:12:32 see how code in object systems based on single dispatch implemented in languages with little higher-order functionality translates to CLOS. 10:13:11 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:13:18 -!- __name__ is now known as name 10:13:28 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:14:16 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 10:15:40 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:18:12 -!- binarycodes_ is now known as ghost 10:18:22 -!- ghost is now known as binarycodes 10:21:11 pjb: i tend to write things in functional style when possible, but may use mutation in the internals of a function to construct its result, not sure if that's what you meant by "abstract away uses of setf" 10:21:46 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 10:24:02 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:24:20 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:34:58 electronx [i=electron@unaffiliated/fatalerrorx] has joined #lisp 10:35:39 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 10:35:56 nostoi [n=nostoi@116.Red-88-23-57.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:59 is ABCL any good? 10:37:35 it seems that everything runs on jvm these days 10:38:08 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 10:40:02 -!- timor101 [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 10:40:09 josemanuel [n=josemanu@248.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 10:40:12 timor101 [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:41:08 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbba14c.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 10:42:16 -!- electronx is now known as narley 10:44:16 -!- narley is now known as electronx 10:47:14 minion: abcl 10:47:15 abcl: ABCL is either Armed Bear Lisp or a family of languages for distributed programming by Akinori Yonezawa. http://www.cliki.net/abcl 10:50:17 <[Head|Rest]> minion: sbcl 10:50:18 sbcl: Steel Bank Common Lisp is an open source / free software Common Lisp implementation. http://www.cliki.net/sbcl 10:55:12 electronx: try it 10:57:03 electronx: and report back whether it works for you... 10:58:41 lol 10:59:12 what's the laugh? You didn't say what you were going to do with it... 10:59:15 ehu does usocket support send/recv ? 10:59:27 xristos: not yet. 10:59:34 xristos: for tcp or udp? 10:59:43 tcp 10:59:45 (for udp, there's an experimental branch) 10:59:48 ok. 10:59:56 no. then the original answer is right. 11:00:42 is there an issue with these calls ? 11:00:52 it seems simple to wrap them with cffi 11:01:54 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:04:46 ]User[B][x3] [n=mIrAcLe_@85-18-136-87.fastres.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:51 <]User[B][x3]> !list 11:05:13 ]User[B][x3]: no !list here 11:05:21 haha 11:05:26 -!- ]User[B][x3] [n=mIrAcLe_@85-18-136-87.fastres.net] has quit [Client Quit] 11:05:54 we can forgive him for thinking this might be a good source of lists 11:06:02 xristos: matter of time. if it can be done without cffi, that's preferred. 11:06:26 well there is socket-send and socket-receive in sb-bsd-sockets 11:06:35 dont know about other lisps 11:07:03 ACL and CCL have something to operate on their sockets. 11:07:11 dunno about clisp 11:07:27 cmucl probably requires additional work 11:07:43 ECL follows sbcl api 11:08:04 leaves ABCL (which can do it, but needs work) 11:08:09 broblem with sbcl's socket-receive is it allocates buffer on every call 11:08:23 not matter if you pass in an allocated vector or not 11:08:30 it has to allocate foreign array on every call 11:08:41 then copy every element to vector you passed originally 11:08:56 which can be slow if you do a lot of receiving 11:09:50 right. but the same would be true for cffi on sbcl, right? 11:09:55 no 11:10:00 no? 11:10:12 isn't it built on top of sbcl ffi? 11:10:16 with cffi there is no reason to use sbcl's socket-receive 11:10:20 you can wrap recv directly 11:10:42 the problem is not in the ffi 11:10:45 but in socket-receive 11:11:02 but shouldn't we then just provide a patch for sb-bsd-sockets? 11:11:23 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:11:29 yes that would be good 11:12:07 We've worked hard to prevent dependencies on other packages. 11:12:52 for UDP, unfortunately, it's not possible on CLISP run without requirements; it will require -Kfull and rawsockets 11:15:08 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 11:19:25 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.208.178] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:19:44 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=macosx@213.234.18.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:23:21 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-248-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:36 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:28:21 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-184-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Client Quit] 11:29:35 schasi [n=schasi@p54A27916.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:30:01 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A27916.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:30:29 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086151.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 11:32:34 -!- lam_fbx [n=nicolas@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 11:34:02 mye [n=mye@dslb-088-070-023-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 11:34:47 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm89.sigma229.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 11:42:46 locklace: yes, it's an example of "abstract away uses of setf". Other paradigms, such as declarative could be implemented using 'setf'. After all, we have to run on Von Neumann computers. Give me a functional procesor, and I'll do without SETF. 11:48:11 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48] has joined #lisp 11:53:26 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:54:21 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 11:54:25 -!- electronx [i=electron@unaffiliated/fatalerrorx] has quit [] 11:55:24 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:56:15 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-147-56.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 11:57:05 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 11:58:47 yeah, i think it's a good compromise, and lisp makes it easy to switch levels as needed 11:59:05 tdwalsh_ [n=tdwalsh@CPE-121-210-224-9.qld.bigpond.net.au] has joined #lisp 11:59:28 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 12:02:27 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-248-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:06:54 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:11:05 yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:12:57 hmm, anyone have a preferred tool for generating nice html documentation from marked-up comments/docstrings? 12:16:38 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@116.Red-88-23-57.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 12:19:16 locklace: yes, but everyone prefers a different tool 12:19:32 -!- g000001 [n=g000001@pu78.opt2.point.ne.jp] has left #lisp 12:20:07 atdoc looks nice ;) 12:20:20 html-template is nice 12:20:38 eh documentation-template 12:25:34 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:26:20 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbc47f.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 12:30:53 ehu` [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b2e1107a7530069c] has joined #lisp 12:38:35 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:38:37 -!- tdwalsh_ [n=tdwalsh@CPE-121-210-224-9.qld.bigpond.net.au] has quit [] 12:40:52 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-36-67.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 12:41:07 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-184-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 12:41:40 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:43:20 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbba14c.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:45:00 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.196.118] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:48:08 pamir [n=pamir@88.241.176.250] has joined #lisp 12:48:53 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 12:53:44 hugopt [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 12:53:59 -!- hugopt is now known as hugo 13:02:08 kidd1 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 13:08:57 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:09:07 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 13:13:18 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 13:13:45 -!- user_ [n=user@p5492438C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:41 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:18:48 philed [n=philed@92-235-187-136.cable.ubr18.edin.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:19:13 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 13:19:48 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has left #lisp 13:20:59 -!- philed [n=philed@92-235-187-136.cable.ubr18.edin.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:21:55 exonnn [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 13:23:55 -!- pamir [n=pamir@88.241.176.250] has quit ["That's it for today"] 13:27:29 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086151.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:29:57 edon_ [n=edon@82.114.94.3] has joined #lisp 13:30:13 -!- pjb [n=t@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:30:41 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-37-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 13:31:09 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086151.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 13:31:27 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.245.107] has joined #lisp 13:31:32 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:31:40 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:32:19 philed [n=phil@92-235-187-136.cable.ubr18.edin.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 13:32:52 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:33:08 vasa [n=vasa@mm-37-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 13:33:13 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:33:18 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E38B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:33:22 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:33:31 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a1517a96afa6aeb8] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:33:57 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1FF76.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:09 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E43FE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 13:35:34 Two arc posts on reddit on the same day! Is this when the revolution begins!? 13:35:38 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:37:06 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E43FE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:30 :( 13:39:25 schme: there's not enough arc proletariat for a revolution 13:39:59 I think that is exactly what the two posts on reddit were saying ;) 13:40:10 *lol* 13:40:17 No proletariat, and the great leader seems to be gone missing. 13:40:23 haha 13:40:45 Egalité, fraternité, liberté. Vive le arc! 13:41:51 if somebody implemented scheme in common lisp, we could all benefit from the arc revolution 13:42:40 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:42:55 but only a little irony. maybe arc is going to be nice to program in after all 13:43:12 Someone implemented pseudoscheme in Common Lisp twenty years ago. 13:43:18 puchacz: I don't think so 13:44:09 (As of last year, it's ASDF-loadable, and was used in a project to invoke Java code through ABCL. It was pretty elaborate.) 13:45:11 I don't know much about arc. Is there separation of the variable and function namespaces as in CL? 13:45:27 philed: no, I think it is like in Scheme. 13:45:29 philed there is actually an implementation you can try out if you like 13:45:51 Do I still have to email Graham to get hold of it, or is it on the web? 13:45:59 it's on the web 13:46:06 Ah cool. I might give it a go. 13:47:28 vixey: something specific or just a gut feeling? personally I never tried to write anything reasonably sized and real life in scheme, and for a long time I have had a plan to google lisp/scheme newsgroups for reports like: "I know both CL and Scheme and I chose Scheme for my real life project". I would presume Arc is more like Scheme, so if Scheme is applicable, so maybe is Arc. 13:48:33 Riastradh: what's the name of this (pseudo)Scheme? 13:48:39 puchacz: i know both cl and scheme and i chose cl for my real life projects ;) 13:48:49 puchacz, it's called `Pseudoscheme'. 13:48:59 cheers 13:50:15 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@212.1.228.48] has joined #lisp 13:50:53 -!- edon_ [n=edon@82.114.94.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:53:36 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:01:34 lieven_ [n=lieven@ip-213-49-240-62.dsl.scarlet.be] has joined #lisp 14:05:17 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.128.115] has joined #lisp 14:05:21 haha 14:14:12 Nshag [i=user@99.a2c-250-158.astra2connect.com] has joined #lisp 14:16:20 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:17:37 -!- kij`` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:18:16 achim_p [n=achim@pD9EBE706.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:19:16 -!- achim_p [n=achim@pD9EBE706.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 14:20:27 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.124.63] has joined #lisp 14:23:28 a-s [n=user@92.80.114.119] has joined #lisp 14:24:28 -!- exonnn [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:24:40 yhara_ [n=yhara@241.198.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 14:24:50 puchacz: just use a proper lisp 14:25:08 if you MUST use a weird new one, clojure is nicer than arc 14:25:17 -!- yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:26:42 I think there's room for a few more weird new lisps in the world, yet. 14:27:07 I'm not sure arc is one of them, though 14:27:20 well, no. arc is retarded. 14:27:41 no worries, I am happily using common lisp, but simply I did not spend enough time on other proposals to have an informed opinion. 14:27:55 common lisp has slime, a few libraries, good implementations etc. 14:28:49 for example I don't have opinion whether lisp-2 is better than lisp-1 14:28:58 puchacz: not to mention a language standard that actually makes it possible to, you know, do things 14:29:40 or newLISP; it's entertainingly bad 14:30:14 *rsynnott* tends to think the whole lisp-1/lisp-2 thing is largely irrelevant 14:30:28 wol [n=wol@c-98-207-129-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:30:37 provides a use for '#'; that's about it 14:30:47 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 14:31:52 LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has joined #lisp 14:32:19 I find Lisp-2 syntax discouraging for functional programming. 14:32:48 good afternoon 14:33:28 unlike what PG wrote, Common Lisp is a popular language with all the positive sides of it, the things mentioned above and a sizeable crowd of knowledgeable people you can ask for advice, implementations and libraries with bugs shaken off already. You cannot say it about more esoteric or emerging lisps. 14:33:47 hi beach 14:33:52 CL certainly has the best implementations. 14:34:44 oh, he's just trying to be awkward and get on reddit 14:36:18 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:36:33 puchacz, see http://www.dreamsongs.com/Separation.html 14:37:00 puchacz, regarding Lisp-1 vs Lisp-Ns 14:37:21 Is that the Steele/Garbiel paper? 14:37:25 Yes. 14:37:27 cheers, tic 14:37:36 *Gabriel 14:37:47 Or is it Kent's? Slow loading.. 14:38:02 Yeah, it might be Kent's. 14:38:07 Gabriel/Pitman. Technical Issues of Separation in Function Cells and Value Cells. 14:38:34 puchacz, and if you haven't read it yet, check out the "generic equal function" paper. 14:39:04 I remember thinking it was all a bit bipartisan, but I found the arguments for Lisp-1 more convincing. That said, I use CL exclusively. 14:39:16 Yeah, that's cool, tic. 14:39:25 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 14:40:10 I can't say I use either :) And on the debate between Lisp-1 vs Lisp-2, I like having function parameters named "list". ;) 14:40:55 then again, "xs" or "integers" or whatnot isn't that bad. 14:40:56 Yeah, but "lst" is such a standard variable name now that it hardly matters. 14:41:08 In Scheme, yes. 14:41:31 it goes against the CL tradition of descriptive names. Hrm. Preaching to the choir... 14:41:32 And other functional languages I have used: Haskell, Ocaml 14:41:42 Haskell uses xs, ys, etc. 14:41:54 I'm sure I've seen both. 14:41:57 philed: what do you mean by "other" functional languages? 14:42:09 Using "list" as a variable name is not very descriptive either! 14:42:18 In this context, languages which use lists a lot. 14:42:20 philed, the xs convention is by far the most common in Haskell. 14:42:26 philed, so, lisps? ;) 14:42:44 Right, but everyone readily identifies "lst". 14:42:49 philed: so a functional langauge is one that uses lists? 14:42:50 chandler, list-of-integers? loop-variable? (Pascal flashbacks) 14:43:06 tic: lisps don't have a monopoly on excessive use of lists :) 14:43:12 erlang uses them for STRINGS! 14:43:28 (which works out to 16 bytes per character) 14:43:35 beach: No. I haven't come across a particularly good definition of the term, and so I was using it informally. Again, in this context, I'm just referring to languages which use lists a lot, which tend to be those often described as functional languages. 14:43:44 Semantic debates are dull. 14:44:08 Haskell uses lists for strings as well. 14:44:17 And doesn't arc? 14:44:43 You'll have to ask the arc hacker. 14:45:00 the namespace separation and case sensitivity debates have been de facto settled by Clojure. get on with the program! 14:45:42 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:45:43 schme: I just remember PG making a big deal of having strings as lists. 14:46:03 philed: Hasn't prolog been doing that since .. well ever? 14:46:51 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has left #lisp 14:46:57 schme: In Prolog, isn't everything which isn't an atom just a structured term? 14:47:03 PG's noble tendencies toward a uniform "sequence" abstraction have been apparently foiled by his own dislike of anything "object oriented" 14:47:10 whatever happened to eulisp? 14:47:28 philed: I'm not sure. What's a structured term? :) 14:48:21 user_ [n=user@p54924210.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:22 schme: A structured term is just a term built from a constructor and then subterms which you pattern-match over in your predicates. A list uses the cons constructor. I would guess that strings probably use it as well. 14:48:35 schme: There's not really any notion of types, as I recall. 14:49:31 philed: Oh ya. yes. 14:49:32 philed: Prolog terms are variables or functors (which are like an atom name with a vector of terms) 14:49:46 philed: most implementations have numeric types too which are disjoint, but uninteresting 14:49:49 cmm: I agree. It's a shame, because I think CLOS has some really important ideas that more people should be aware of. 14:50:13 philed, indeed. just look at gfs and multimehtods. 14:50:23 philed, ecmascript4 has gained that, though. 14:50:37 philed: But lisp lists are just made up of conses too, no? 14:50:57 vixey: Functors are what I meant by "constructors" 14:51:07 vixey: A structured term is a functor and a list of arguments. 14:51:23 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:51:23 philed: it hardly matters; arc is pretty much dead in the water anyway 14:51:28 tic: ecmascript4 has multimethods? 14:51:38 and I don't think people will ignore CLOS just because Graham says so 14:51:43 philed: It's essential to not think of it as a list 14:51:50 tic: ecmascript4 has gained what? 14:52:00 philed: and essential to not implement it as such! 14:52:06 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47DC9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:42 vixey: Oh okay. I didn't mean list in the sense of a Prolog list. 14:53:03 philed, mhm 14:53:22 http://www.ecmascript.org/es4/spec/evolutionary-programming-tutorial.pdf 14:53:49 schme: Lisp lists are conses, but that's a primitive data type in Lisp, rather than the more general idea of a structured term which you then match over. 14:54:16 milanj [n=milan@79.101.196.242] has joined #lisp 14:55:16 philed: oh you meant like that. 14:55:40 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.128.115] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:56:25 Anyway, what we really need is more code. 14:57:18 tic: Interesting. I'd like to have a go with that. I always get concerned though that these features end up being bolted-on, rather than being completely integrated with the existing class system and so forth, making them less easy to use. 14:57:52 tic: Before I read this entire paper, what exactly are you claiming has been added to ecmascript4? 14:58:57 tic: nvm, i think i found the section you are referring to 14:59:40 <_3b> hmm, does flash support that too? 14:59:46 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:00:17 joga [i=joga@rikki.fi] has joined #lisp 15:00:22 I thought all of ecmascript4 is up in the air right now. 15:00:48 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 15:02:22 _3b: no, Flash does not. 15:02:48 <_3b> ahaas: ah, that's no fun, was hoping for an example of how to implement it :) 15:03:40 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 15:03:50 I don't know what they've added to Flash 10, but I'd be shocked if they added generic functions. 15:04:21 <_3b> seemed like mostly library stuff from what little i read about it 15:04:40 _3b: That's all I've heard, too. 15:05:35 tic: Thanks for linking to that doc. That's very interesting. It's great to know that is under consideration. 15:05:42 ahaas, indeed. 15:06:01 malu__ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbc47f.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 15:06:02 philed, I don't know. 15:06:04 Anon735 [n=Anon735@5ac8159d.bb.sky.com] has joined #lisp 15:06:11 beach, any particular kind of code? 15:06:23 -!- Anon735 [n=Anon735@5ac8159d.bb.sky.com] has left #lisp 15:06:54 BTW, I had an impression that ES4 was going to take away some dynamic behavior with its classes etc., so it will be hard to use things like mozrepl to dynamically update code 15:07:07 tic: Espcecially applications! 15:07:11 *Especially 15:07:22 beach, fudge. I guess I'm in the wrong business then. 15:07:39 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:43 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E43FE2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:45 tic: darn! 15:08:36 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:12:14 Speaking of applications (and since the debate seems to be slowing down), I was in Angoulęme yesterday and presented Gsharp to students and musicians of the music conservatory there. The talk was very well received! 15:17:29 Hey, that's nice! 15:17:45 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 15:18:33 CLIM is intriguing, with the data/command notions. (reminds me of Jeff Raskin's ideas in The Humane Interface) 15:18:33 Invalid index 0: must be between 0 and -1. 15:18:41 tic: Yeah, it's usually the demo of keyboard macros that blows them away. 15:18:56 beach, in what way? 15:20:07 tic: I first type lots of Ľ notes, and then apply a rythmic change to turn it into the "humoresque" rythmic pattern. Then I apply the macro n times. This is *so* much faster to do than in other editors. 15:21:20 tic: What makes CLIM really good compared to other GUI libraries is the concept of presentations. This concept makes the code way much modular than would otherwise be possible. 15:21:27 beach, nice! Maybe I should've used G# instead, when I was transposing a song for the recorder the other month.. 15:21:34 facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has joined #lisp 15:22:11 tic: you would have had to add the code for transpositions :) (though I now know how to do that, and it should be easy to add). 15:22:40 beach, ah. well, now it's done. and I had to write it down anyway. (was on a bunch of scanned handwritten papers) 15:22:53 ah, OK. 15:23:02 beach, presentation is about displaying a piece of data in different ways depending on context, right? 15:23:07 -!- facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:23:44 facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has joined #lisp 15:23:52 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbc47f.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:10 tic: Not quite. It's about associating an area on the screen with both an uderlying object, and with a "presentation type", so that when objects of that presentation type are needed by some command, the corresponding screen areas become clickable. 15:24:19 beach, specifically, http://www.sagorochswing.com/media/noter_vals_pa_vingar.htm (the song: http://www.sagorochswing.com/media/Vals_pa_vingar_demo(1996).mp3 ) 15:25:01 beach, presentation: ah! reminds me of my adventures with OpenGenera. Either type in No or _click_ the alternative No. Amusing. 15:25:36 -!- facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has quit [Client Quit] 15:25:49 facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has joined #lisp 15:26:51 facetious_ [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has joined #lisp 15:27:03 -!- facetious_ [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:27:04 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 15:27:21 facetious_ [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has joined #lisp 15:27:37 -!- facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has quit [Client Quit] 15:27:37 -!- facetious_ [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:28:07 (lilypond version at http://mikael.jansson.be/static/2008/03/vals-pa-vingar.ly if anyone's interested in playing with it. it's a fine song.) 15:28:24 tic: Very Swedish! 15:28:48 beach, yeah, I guess so? I really like the melody. 15:28:49 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 15:29:58 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 15:31:42 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:50 -!- user_ [n=user@p54924210.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 15:32:06 -!- envi^office [i=envi@203.109.25.100] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:32:31 -!- Nshag [i=user@99.a2c-250-158.astra2connect.com] has quit ["Quitte"] 15:34:16 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-12.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 15:34:50 Given an fbound symbol passed to a defmacro, how do I get TRACE to work on it? 15:35:36 user_ [n=user@p54924210.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:36:05 tic: Who wrote the score? 15:36:12 what is the difference between remove and delete again? 15:36:26 delete might be destructive 15:38:30 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 15:39:21 i'm writting a short tutorial on sorting algorithms in 3 different languages, one of which is lisp, i start classically with bubble sort. I wrote it recursively. Do you think it would be better to present the "looping version"? 15:39:50 plutonas: It depends on your audience. 15:40:07 beach: should be everyday-programmers 15:40:20 probably most of them won't be very familiar with lisp 15:40:25 plutonas: then never use recusion on linear structures like lists. 15:40:34 Why bubble-sort? 15:40:42 Riastradh: have to start somewhere 15:41:09 beach: so looping... 15:41:14 beach: Why not? 15:41:19 Yes, but you could start with a useful sorting algorithm... 15:41:27 ahaas: not as efficient as iteration. 15:41:31 was thinking though that the loops will be seen clearly in the same example in python 15:41:51 Riastradh: the tutorial will be called 7 popular sorting algorithms in lisp, haskell and python 15:42:07 I hope bogosort is among them, then! 15:42:22 and might be a series of 7 posts... not the most interesting subject, but i'm doing it for a friend 15:42:27 Riastradh: bogosort? 15:42:42 -!- ehu` [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b2e1107a7530069c] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:43:03 Bogosort, runs in about O(n!) expected time. 15:43:14 plutonas: I think it is this one : compute all permutations and return the one that is ordered. 15:43:43 Step 1: Randomly permute the list. Step 2: Are the elements in order? If not, return to step 1. 15:43:45 beach: no, generate random permutations until it's sorted. 15:43:51 ooh alright, i'll skip that one... 15:44:11 beach: you still think i should do it iteratively? i mean it will be almost identical to the python code... 15:44:13 pkhuong: I was going to say, that one is even worse, because it might not terminate. 15:44:14 (There is, however, no upper bound on its running time.) 15:45:00 actually i could write both 15:45:03 plutonas: Again, it depends on what you want to illustrate. If you are doing it for programmers, you should definitely (in my opinion, of course) take efficiency into account. 15:45:32 If you're doing it for programmers, just skip the bubble sort. 15:46:02 it is for programmers but not necessary familiar with algorithms and stuff 15:46:20 for example algorithms that just use the sort function of their favorite language, without thinking further on it 15:46:21 plutonas: hmm, what kind of "programmers" are they? 15:46:33 beach, Sagor och Swing, aka Eric Malmberg. See http://www.sagorochswing.com. I wrote it down in Lilypond format and transcribed it to fit my recorder. 15:46:34 web programmers i don't know :P 15:46:49 oh, let me guess: the ones that industry likes to hire, with catastrophic results. 15:46:57 beach: kind of 15:47:07 tic: yeah, I googled it. 15:47:22 the recursive version would be more useful if you're trying to illustrate the characteristics of lisp, it might be worthwhile to put both the iterative and recursive versions in the tutorial and draw the parallels with the python version. 15:47:39 beach, in case you want to play it, the PDF's more readable than the scanned jaypegs -> http://mikael.jansson.be/static/2008/03/vals-pa-vingar.pdf 15:47:42 i think i'll put both 15:48:12 *nod* 15:48:15 Riastradh, I like bogosort! 15:48:27 I like bogo-sort much more than bubble-sort. 15:48:29 tic: nice! Can LilyPond generate MusicXML? 15:48:30 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 15:48:41 Fade: what characteristic? That you can misuse recursion to write a loop using gotos-with-arguments instead of structured looping constructs? 15:49:10 well, it seems to be the first error new people make once they get to terms with recursion. 15:49:18 tic: actually, I am surprised how bad the LilyPond output is compared to that of Gsharp. 15:49:37 beach, seems to only do musicxml to lily. 15:49:41 tic: the stem ends at the nothead are visible! 15:49:47 suddenly every problem looks like a nail, etc. 15:49:59 tic: it's off by one pixel. 15:50:24 tic: and the beams are jagged! 15:50:25 beach, ah, yes. 15:50:41 beach, apparently, it's "supposed" to be fuzzy. 15:50:59 beach, pixel is an odd thing to say about PDFs though. :) 15:51:15 tic: well, it is off by some amount. 15:51:53 beach, does http://lilypond.org/web/about/faq "what is wrong with computer printed scores" make it better? 15:52:34 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-248-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:06 -!- LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:53:24 tic: not really. What I pointed out are real errors of page layout, which I thought LilyPond was supposed to be very good at. 15:53:46 beach, right, thought maybe that was done by purpose 15:53:58 definitely not. 15:54:08 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086151.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:58:09 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B169569.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:58:39 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:01:33 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 16:01:59 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:04:03 alec [n=alec@pool-71-174-175-161.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:05:14 can i use delete to only delete the first occurence of the element? 16:05:46 plutonas: read the Common Lisp HyperSpec page. 16:05:48 clhs delete 16:05:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rm_rm.htm 16:06:12 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@221.219.128.225] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:06:28 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:04 -!- user_ [n=user@p54924210.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:08:38 enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:20 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:12:27 pjb [n=t@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:12:28 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 16:13:24 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:15:06 binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.215.108] has joined #lisp 16:15:07 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.245.107] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:17:29 -!- pjb [n=t@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:18:51 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:18:51 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 16:19:47 hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:20:02 -!- binarycodes_ [n=sujoy@59.93.215.108] has quit [Client Quit] 16:20:05 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.215.108] has joined #lisp 16:21:51 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.248] has joined #lisp 16:22:09 -!- yhara_ is now known as yhara_aw 16:22:33 -!- philed [n=phil@92-235-187-136.cable.ubr18.edin.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:22:55 -!- Wizard_ [n=wizard@94.50.0.244] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:24:02 -!- Modius__ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:26:00 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-248-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:26:16 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-248-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:27:37 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 16:30:30 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-248-115.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:31:50 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 16:32:47 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:33:02 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 16:33:08 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:33:14 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 16:35:27 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 16:35:34 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.196.118] has joined #lisp 16:36:19 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:37:03 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.248] has quit [] 16:42:18 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:42:30 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 16:42:42 -!- yhara_aw [n=yhara@241.198.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:43:06 Nets [n=asaned@pcsp201-20.dynamic.supercable.net.ve] has joined #lisp 16:43:22 disumu [n=disumu@p57A27D6D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:20 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:48:46 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:48:54 -!- younder [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 16:49:38 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.215.108] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:52:54 -!- Nets [n=asaned@pcsp201-20.dynamic.supercable.net.ve] has left #lisp 16:57:48 Tankado [n=baaa@bzq-79-178-230-149.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:20 any good site to start with lisp? 16:59:03 minion: tell Tankado about pcl 16:59:04 Tankado: direct your attention towards pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 16:59:29 thank you 17:02:39 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:02:50 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:01 Tankado, I'm a newbie Lisper, and that was the book that definitely got me going. 17:04:03 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-1-12.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:10 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:05:35 good to hear i am just going to read it 17:05:54 Great idea. You should also get a good Lisp editor, that's almost as important as a compiler. 17:06:46 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-196.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:07:29 any suggestions ? 17:08:20 there's Slime for Emacs, Cusp for Eclipse, Limp for Vim. 17:08:22 Tankado: most people in this group would recommend Emacs + SLIME. 17:08:58 There are also some standalone IDEs (particularly for Windows.) 17:08:59 s/group/channel/ 17:09:08 The commercial vendors come with their own IDEs, too. 17:12:34 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 17:12:35 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:12:47 What way would you recommend to daemonize a lisp script? I have read this thread already. http://objectmix.com/lisp/354861-run-common-lisp-progs-sbcl-linux-daemons.html 17:14:45 swank-daemon looks nice. 17:19:47 -!- enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:21:11 -!- kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:22:22 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 17:23:16 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:24:16 -!- medic33 [n=phil@12-210-144-200.client.mchsi.com] has left #lisp 17:24:22 tomoyuki28jp: attachtty is the normal way. 17:27:29 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:28:29 segv_: You mean lispers don't daemonize their program? 17:29:10 I run my Lisp servers under screen. 17:29:24 tomoyuki28jp: um, what's the difference? 17:29:26 In the event that something goes wrong, I can easily pull up the REPL and correct the problem. 17:29:33 what chandler said. 17:30:12 ditto 17:30:40 as long as you don't particularly expect your server(s) to crash much, it can work out okay 17:31:01 chandler: Can I do that on a remote server with ssh connection? 17:31:37 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 17:31:54 tomoyuki28jp: absolutely. Look at the manual page for 'screen', which is probably already installed on your server. 17:32:00 what do you press to locate a function in emacs ? 17:32:14 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.196.242] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:32:29 lhz: if you mean 'locate the source', M-. 17:32:36 chandler: I do use screen a lot. I will check the manual. Thanks! 17:32:39 -!- myrkraverk`` [n=johann@157-157-188-30.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:33:03 segv_: Thanks segv_ too! 17:34:07 chandler: do you know if there was a reason for removing the filler slot (thus guaranteeing misalignment without saving any space) in complex-double-float for sbcl/x86-64? 17:34:27 pkhuong: absolutely no clue, sorry 17:35:27 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:28 another newbie question: If I want to tell sbcl the element-type of a certain array is fixed, how would I do that? (what symbol should I lookup in clhs?) 17:36:33 milanj [n=milan@79.101.169.46] has joined #lisp 17:37:12 I'm looking for something like '(integer 0 8) 17:37:23 chandler: do I need to have open every sbcl source file ? 17:37:42 lhz: it works via slime and source locations. 17:38:05 madnificent: was that passed as the :element-type to make-array originally? 17:38:26 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.15.172] has joined #lisp 17:38:47 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.15.172] has quit [Client Quit] 17:38:48 medic33 [n=medic33@12-210-144-200.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 17:39:21 chandler: yes, however when sending that array into a function, that function is not sure of the element-type of that array... And I want to clear that :) 17:39:42 clhs array 17:39:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_array.htm 17:40:06 thank you 17:40:07 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 17:40:35 it is the compound type specifier syntax then? 17:40:51 where is %exp, %sqrt etc defined on non-x86 (sbcl)? 17:44:19 ok, emacs and slime installed, have a prompt, doing M-. and searching for %gethash3 cant find it in common-lisp-user, how do I search all packages ? 17:45:09 lhz: code/irrat.lisp 17:46:02 pkhuong: but there i only see (defun %exp (x) (%exp x)) 17:46:03 lhz: M-. works on symbols, not strings. 17:46:32 gethash3 in code/target-hash-table.lisp, rgrep revealed. :) 17:46:35 lhz: grep for '(def.*exp' 17:47:21 pkhuong, it only matches irrat.lisp using '(def.*%exp' 17:48:16 lhz: your grepping skills need some improvement. 17:48:44 *tic* kan never remember when ( needs escaping or not. 17:49:39 lhz, cd sbcl-1.0.20/src; grep -r '(def.*%exp' . 17:50:50 I wonder where that extra percent sign comes from. 17:50:57 tic: thanks.. no luck.. I see it as an defknown in float-tran, but doesnt that mean %exp should be an vop ? there is no such vop.. I'm little confused. 17:52:21 Oh my god, the detach and resume function of screen are so good. 17:52:45 kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 17:52:58 FWIW, I run my Lisp servers as completely ordinary deamons. Just fork away. 17:53:07 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.15.172] has joined #lisp 17:53:55 ... for which I'm using a small C program that looks for the Lisps and execs it. 17:54:42 screen stinks for servers, and I forget what exactly I disliked about detachtty, but I was too simple for my purposes. 17:55:23 I'm not sure why "screen stinks for servers" - can you explain that one? 17:56:55 chandler: Do you run your server on terminal or on emacs? 17:57:35 tomoyuki28jp: Just on the terminal. I use SB-ACLREPL to provide a slightly nicer REPL at the terminal for this, but generally I don't attach SLIME. 17:58:00 chandler: It's not a solution customers like. 17:58:22 lichtblau, what's wrong with screen? 17:58:35 why don't they like it? 17:58:44 chandler: thanks 17:58:46 not enterprise enough? 17:59:39 lichtblau: Heh. That seems like too specific a use case to generalize against. 18:04:49 I just read the book, practical common lisp, and surprised that lisp was used to control the space shuttle and ppl did debug it with repl from the earth. Now I got the sense. 18:05:07 tomoyuki28jp: In case you didn't already know, you can run swank on your remote machine and connect your local emacs+slime to it. 18:05:25 enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 18:06:51 ahaas: I knew swank, but I didn't know that. That sounds really cool. Thanks a lot for the info. 18:07:08 Limp is based on screen, ergo it must be good! 18:07:32 I run my server with swank under screen. If I have a remote shell on that machine, I can reattach screen and work at the repl. Otherwise, I connect via emacs+slime on my local machine. 18:08:32 oddlyzen [n=oddlyzen@151.202.125.227] has joined #lisp 18:09:16 ahaas: sounds really nice. I will try swank. thanks! 18:09:42 It's not difficult to set up. 18:10:00 tic: you're talking about Limp the lisp mode for vim? 18:10:07 enigmus, yes. 18:10:09 prip [n=_prip@host12-122-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:10:31 DrTilt [n=browning@adsl-76-243-208-202.dsl.bcvloh.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:44 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F324.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:11:56 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F324.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:47 Pupeno [n=pupeno@84-75-21-133.dclient.hispeed.ch] has joined #lisp 18:13:52 Hello. 18:14:13 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 18:14:40 allnmymi` [n=user@CPE0018f859bed2-CM00195edcdfbc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:15:44 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:15:49 Pupeno: hello! 18:16:17 tomoyuki28jp: Hi. 18:16:27 Pupeno: Hi :) 18:18:37 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:22:26 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:23:25 sellout: ping 18:23:33 pong 18:25:09 I added scl support to bordeaux-threads, courtesy of douglas crosher 18:25:10 so perhaps we should make a new release 18:25:30 *high-five* 18:25:35 will do 18:26:36 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:28:29 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 18:29:33 2/4 18:30:25 So... If I have a cute lil' (defsystem foo :depends-on (mcclim) ...) does that force me to put foo under the GPL? 18:30:35 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.2.124.63] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:31:21 xaron [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 18:31:36 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.48.15] has joined #lisp 18:31:46 no, why would it? mcclim isn't GPL. 18:32:04 Huh. 18:32:08 Then I misread the mcclim.asd 18:32:17 I just opened it up and read GNU ;) 18:32:24 you missed an 'L' 18:32:27 aha. 18:32:37 So what does that mean to me in practical terms? 18:32:55 *hefner* shrugs 18:32:57 not LLGPL even? 18:33:13 that didn't exist back then (: 18:33:19 I tried read the LGPL and I really don't understand shit of it. 18:33:33 covers dynamic linking, does it not? 18:33:35 I think all the *GPL licenses ought to banished, but it's too late to do anything about it with mcclim. 18:33:38 yes, it does 18:34:00 wonder what "dynamic linking" means in terms of image-based languages. 18:34:12 My issue is this here; I want to go with BSD license, but it's a mcclim app, so I dunno if that even works. 18:34:16 I think that's why llgpl exists; no-one was QUITE sure :) 18:34:22 if anybody who holds rights to mcclim tries to mak you publish your software as GPL we'll have him roughed up a bit (: 18:34:23 rsynnott, yeah. 18:34:30 does mcclim share an interface with clim? 18:34:38 rsynnott: it's an implementation of hte clim2 spec 18:34:45 I tried reading the llgpl too. Made a bit more sense, but not really. 18:34:47 heh. 18:34:48 like the vendor CLIMs are 18:34:51 if so, you could probably argue that your program works with both, so doesn't need to comply to the license 18:34:51 antifuchs: Excellent! 18:35:09 oh, clever. 18:35:15 Oh good one. 18:35:21 (if you could build your program with any old clim, surely it's unreasonable for it to inherit lgpl constraints from mcclim :) ) 18:35:22 so now somebody /is/ going to come up and send you dmca takedown notices and stuff (: 18:35:33 hahaha. 18:35:42 bwaha 18:35:50 One of these days someone will try to make a shitload of money that way. 18:35:52 make sure you don't have to work around any McCLIM bugs (-: 18:36:21 Well ok guys, thanks for the help. Off to bed here :) 18:36:29 (once wrote a program which worked either with one of the old unix [n]dbm things, and gdbm's compatibility interface 18:36:41 no need to fall under GPL unless you distribute linked binaries 18:36:57 rsynnott: Not true! 18:37:09 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 18:37:12 oh, defmacro def-math-rtn was symbolicating % + exp :) 18:37:15 Unliked binaries that the author may intend you to link to GPL'ed libraries also are derivative works. 18:37:17 That's the charm with worknig with sbcl though. It's a pain in the ass to distribute binaries :) 18:37:29 er, "Unlinked" :-) 18:37:36 Hah! 18:37:38 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A27D6D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 18:37:47 tic: You should have told me it's vintertid! 18:37:49 schme_: you could distribute fasls, but then nobody knows what that means in a lisp context with the llgpl involved 18:38:00 oh fun. 18:38:13 antifuchs: I think the *L*LGPL is fairly clear on that, but the regular ol' LGPL is not. 18:38:16 chandler: I think if they support being linked to anything that happens to have that interface, you're clear 18:38:19 I'll just write some code and hope no one bitches. 18:38:27 chandler: sure, but mcclim is under lgpl (: 18:38:32 even if one of those things happens to be [l]gpl 18:39:07 rsynnott: Read http://clisp.cvs.sourceforge.net/*checkout*/clisp/clisp/doc/Why-CLISP-is-under-GPL and tell me if you change your mind on that. 18:39:25 chandler: in that case the fake readline was created specifically to circumvent GPL 18:39:56 but if there are a number of existing libs with the same interface (as with the [g][n]dbm things) then I can't see it applying 18:40:02 Yes, and? There were two pieces - one which was not GPL, and the other which was. They shared a common interface. The one which was not still resulted in a working CLISP. 18:40:35 so if I happen to write a c app that uses ndbm, I must license it gpl because gdbm shares an interface? 18:40:38 I doubt it 18:41:13 I might never even have heard of gdbm, after all :) 18:41:48 or gdbm could have been developed after your app: nice way of forcing the gpl on existing software :) 18:42:02 anyway, it seems likely to me that the mcclim people licensed it lgpl in good faith 18:42:24 as opposed to trying to be deliberately tricky with an ambiguous license 18:42:33 so they're unlikely to object to llgpl-like usage 18:42:45 clisp is measurably less useful being under the GPL 18:42:58 oh, absolutely 18:43:23 especially that nasty little restriction where if your distribute an app which uses the FFI or CLOS, you must release source 18:43:42 AND license under GPL, I assume 18:44:57 the clos bit is particularly absurd, it being a de facto standard 18:45:14 is there something kicking around for embedding C code in lisp? 18:45:27 doesnt have to be gpl license, gpl compatible will suffice 18:45:35 not that it matters in practice 18:45:53 hefner: ecl or gcl might 18:46:02 with a real lisp, I mean. 18:46:18 I wouldn't be surprised if it had become the dominant free env if not for being GPL 18:47:08 i tend to avoid gpl libraries like the plague 18:48:20 but i dont think there are any issues with lgpl 18:49:52 hefner: ECL does a stunningly good impression of a "real lisp" these days. 18:50:37 chandler: it sounds interesting, OTOH I tried to compile CLX with it a month or two ago and it exploded 18:50:50 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Yay! I'm a Llama again!"] 18:51:05 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@76.214.15.172] has quit [] 18:53:43 xristos: for lisp libraries, or other environments which use a similar compilation/loading scheme, there may be, at least in principle 18:54:11 (though in practice the INTENT of the authors of lgpl libs is probably not to screw people in that circumstance) 18:54:22 but that's why llgpl exists; disambiguation 18:54:36 personally, I don't really see what people have against MIT/BSD et al 18:54:38 much simpler 18:55:03 maybe if they add a few dozen more *gpls everything will become crystal clear 18:55:28 i dont remember the wording exactly but i think its focused on C style shared libraries 18:55:53 -!- lieven_ [n=lieven@ip-213-49-240-62.dsl.scarlet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:55:55 so they may consider a lisp environment with lgpl library code + user programs as a derived work 18:56:01 I agree and go with mit/bsd for my own software 18:56:30 same here + aversion to gnu 18:58:33 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44EA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:00:26 the gpl software I use the most is gcc, gmake, emacs; and I find it acceptable in the context of a toolchain and development tools 19:00:39 but as soon as runtime is involved *gpl becomes a can of worms 19:01:26 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:01:33 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a9d5d93dd1a25349] has joined #lisp 19:02:03 schme_, :)) 19:02:31 schme_, what did you miss? 19:02:47 it might well be that being compelled the GPL is in fact in everyone's long term best interest, whether or not they realize it, but it's hard to analyze, and it's certainly irritating 19:02:57 tic: No nothing. I was heading off to bed, and I noticed I had another hour to go :) 19:03:24 schme_, at 21? that's early. 19:03:40 early bird, etc. 19:04:03 if I go to bed earlier than 22:30 I wake up at 1-2. very unpleasant; I envy you. 19:04:21 fookn' hell. 19:04:37 user_ [n=user@p5492566C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:05:04 something along those lines. 19:05:08 I think it's dinner time soon. 19:05:13 !! 19:05:21 Crazy :) 19:05:37 tell me about it. :( 19:08:53 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["reboot"] 19:11:01 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086151.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 19:11:31 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47DC9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:12:04 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit ["quit"] 19:16:04 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-db61331285ea6403] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:17:30 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-6fa42e9f66d7e1e0] has joined #lisp 19:17:50 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:19:25 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-68-238-164-124.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:22 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:20:48 hefner: I doubt it 19:21:10 it makes commercialisation, and thus commercial assistance in development (a la Clozure/ITA) very difficult 19:23:18 qbg [n=quickbas@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 19:23:48 rsynnott: I doubt having to release source to their customers would make ITA's life any harder 19:24:03 seeing as they have only the one (-; 19:24:31 ITA has 1 customer? 19:24:35 rsynnott: right, because clozure can't support gpled software like, oh I don't know, clozure common lisp 19:25:07 (oh, maybe it's lgpl) 19:25:23 ehu: let's say O(1) customers (-: 19:25:23 it's llgpl 19:25:43 if it were gpl it would suffer from clisp syndrome, presumably 19:26:02 antifuchs: heh. 19:26:23 rsynnott: what's clisp syndrome? 19:26:34 clisp syndrome being "the only free lisp to have made an entrepreneur money"? 19:26:52 http://clisp.cons.org/impnotes/faq.html#faq-licensing :) 19:26:58 heh 19:27:04 -!- allnmymi` [n=user@CPE0018f859bed2-CM00195edcdfbc.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Operation timed out] 19:27:08 (use the CLOS, and you must provide your source!) 19:27:16 rsynnott: That's not what it says. 19:27:20 haha 19:27:20 "internal symbols" 19:27:37 (anything using CLOS etc. is deemed an extension) 19:27:54 Are you ignoring me? 19:28:06 chandler: ISTR seeing a question about this on their list, the answer was that anything using CLOS etc was liabel 19:28:09 I may be wrong 19:28:14 finally, an explanation of why paul graham is not especially fond of CLOS :) 19:28:26 rsynnott: http://clisp.cvs.sourceforge.net/*checkout*/clisp/clisp/COPYRIGHT 19:30:45 schme_, nighty! 19:30:48 -!- Pupeno [n=pupeno@84-75-21-133.dclient.hispeed.ch] has left #lisp 19:30:50 hefner: ((-: 19:31:48 if your problem is sufficiently trivial that giving your source to a paying customer destroys the value you bring, maybe you're not bringing much value to the party... 19:31:49 phytovor [n=doxtor@cpe-92-37-16-200.dynamic.amis.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:47 Krystof: I think there is some reluctance to give customers the right to redistribute the source, and generally it is not kosher to restrict that right as it applies to derived works of GPL'ed programs. 19:33:53 sorry, implicit in what I said was "and allowing your customer to redistribute your source" 19:34:41 (obviously Franzware licencing isn't going to destroy your value) 19:34:46 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-79-91.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 19:35:47 how about if you use a licensed patent in that software, say?\ 19:35:52 things get tricky then 19:37:23 -!- kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:50 LiamH [n=nobody@138.88.126.7] has joined #lisp 19:38:17 kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 19:38:46 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 19:38:56 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 19:39:28 -!- edon is now known as Guest27052 19:40:03 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 19:43:51 -!- Guest27052 [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:44:51 Is all of arnesi in alexandria? 19:45:36 software patents shouldn't exist. The EU got that one right. 19:47:45 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 19:47:45 wol: far from it, but i've factored out most of the complex features of arnesi (cl-delico, cl-yalog, cl-walker) 19:47:50 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:49:52 I was pulling both into a test case and suddenly name conflicts galore. 19:52:44 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 19:54:20 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:59:16 V-ille, ehu: i think javaInstance() for primitive wrappers should use Integer.valueOf(value), Character.valueOf(value) 19:59:34 at least when possible 20:00:02 that's in Java.java? 20:00:07 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.48.15] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:00:22 LispCharacter,Fixnum,... 20:00:57 hmm. checking. 20:01:09 DoubleFloat,SingleFloat 20:01:38 ok. what's the difference? 20:02:00 it'll be able to return cached values? 20:02:06 the JVM can use its internal cache if/when it makes one especially for Integer 20:02:06 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:02:22 it can't with new ..()? 20:02:26 ope 20:02:32 does it actually create a cache? 20:02:46 I'll check it out. 20:03:03 nope, Integer.valueOf(0)==Integer.valueOf(0) is true but (new Integer(0))!=(new Integer(0)) 20:03:22 oh. wow. 20:05:42 -!- oddlyzen [n=oddlyzen@151.202.125.227] has quit [] 20:06:26 every JVM and version is a tad different .. Integer.valueOf(255)==Integer.valueOf(255) maybe Integer.valueOf(256)!=Integer.valueOf(256) sometimes not 20:07:03 but the idea is to let the JVM implementer get their whack at the primitive boxing 20:07:11 oddlyzen [n=oddlyzen@151.202.125.227] has joined #lisp 20:09:11 I get it. Working on it. (to see what difference it makes) 20:09:43 Character.valueOf(char c); is defiantely using their cache 20:09:49 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086151.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:11:47 dmiles_afk: what happens if I cast an int to a byte and the int is too big? I mean, I'm used to casting objects, not numbers. 20:13:21 *ehu* just tries 20:13:34 it will give the wrong answeer i've heard 20:14:10 no bounds checking? 20:14:50 right, but we should really check ourtselves and find out for sure 20:14:54 nope, high bits are ignored, just like C (not sure if there's some guarantee re endianness or complement) 20:18:47 pkhuong: thanks. I mean, the bounds are available as fields, so I guess there's nothing wrong with it. 20:19:22 dmiles_afk: I also did the same trick for SimpleString. 20:19:50 *ehu* builds now 20:21:10 right on 20:25:35 it looks like initialization time is down. 20:26:07 (I used to get ~0.7; now 0.53) 20:26:50 -!- mye [n=mye@dslb-088-070-023-201.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 20:30:14 -!- etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:30:29 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:30:56 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:31:45 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:32:44 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:35:15 well, it doesn't break anything... 20:35:35 what did you do with SimpleString? 20:35:48 a string cache on getStringValue() 20:36:26 simply used String.valueOf(char[] chars) 20:37:08 ah cool.. yeah that works out 20:37:32 but if you audit our code, you'll probably find much more places where new Double() is called... 20:37:35 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:37:43 (other than just in javaInstance()) 20:37:50 :) 20:38:23 -!- qbg [n=quickbas@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 20:38:27 I haven't found much speedup in the ansi tests, but I guess those are not targetted at this kind of testing anyway. 20:38:34 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@152.pool85-54-94.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:39:03 another trick we did was add a String string; field for a cache on first getStringValue() and then on all changed to "chars" we set to null, .. now this doesnt sound to great but... 20:39:24 what was good was when the SimpleString was construct using a existing String 20:39:57 because that was how most SimpleString got constructed 20:40:17 so a later String(s) never needed to get generated 20:41:49 we've done experments w/ and w/o it... geenrateyl it hasnt hart memory overhead, and hasnt added time 20:42:14 meaning it didnt add adverse effects 20:42:32 it always hard to test benefits but easy to test for perfloss 20:43:21 why would SimpleString not use a String internally? 20:43:28 i did an exprment not at String.intern(0 our String cache.. and now that cause a slowdown 20:44:08 it doenst use one now.. probly becasue they thought they'd save ram 20:44:35 i mena ABCL simple String doesnt use a Stirng internally becasue they wanted a mutable char array 20:45:24 SimpleString is muttated sometimes.. ComplexSring is for displaced strings 20:45:29 ah. because a lisp string isn't immutable. 20:45:36 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:45:50 right. 20:45:53 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:27 so on my constructor: SimpleString(String s) .. i save the value passed to me and reuse it in getStringValue() 20:52:13 but that doubles memory use, then. 20:52:22 (if most strings were called that way...)? 20:52:47 well if it was passed thru into the constructor then problem the memory is already used 20:53:23 that was the theory.. f it was a constant for the classpool then it doesnt use any memory 20:53:48 like some did new SimpleString("my thing"); 20:54:08 Ok, but my theory is that the memory can be released as soon as the constructor finishes, unless you hold on to it... 20:54:27 (maybe we shouldn't initialise char[] chars in that case? 20:54:40 yeah .. so a case someone does: SimpleString("my thing"+1); 20:54:56 yes. 20:55:28 hrrm .. i have personally wanted to get rid of chars[] so bnadly 20:55:41 soo badly.. but all attempts fail eventauly 20:56:08 since we actualyl use the chars[] version more often 20:56:19 new SimpleSTring((int)32) 20:56:25 new SimpleSTring((int)64) 20:56:29 for like the file readers 20:57:00 thats why FastBuffer was created... and the java code used the fastbuffer.. unformtuately the lisp code never uses it 20:58:12 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-36-5.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:18 so what i am saying is i'd love to ditch the chars[] but there is like a 10/3 pos/cons for keeping it 20:58:39 -!- alec [n=alec@pool-71-174-175-161.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:58:49 adding the String cache; there is about 3/3 pros/cons 20:59:53 l_a_m_ [n=l_a_m@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:28 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C7AB.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:31 pretty much the two most used methods of simple string are getStringValue() and setCharAt() 21:01:05 right. but some code is actually getting a (bit/lot) more complex with the string cache. 21:01:09 see .equal() 21:02:12 yeah equal()s is yet one of those pros for keeping chars[] 21:03:36 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-37-88-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:03:41 that's at least a change I'm not making/committing now. 21:03:46 Committing the other change. 21:04:07 yeah, the other suggestion.. i have to do some more testing anyways 21:04:15 ehu: So, what's the positive impact of this change? Just out of curiosity. 21:05:02 well, my cold boot time goes down; no idea otherwise, but it doesn't really hurt either. 21:05:04 -!- malu__ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbbc47f.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 21:05:12 fine enough 21:05:21 as I said, I'm not increasing the SimpleString complexity just yet. 21:05:43 i dont know if an extra field for saving the string used in the constructor is really that great an idea.. 21:05:56 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:05:57 did we ever get the promised string cleanup? I remember vaguely that someone was doing a cleanup job. 21:06:10 *V-ille* goes look 21:06:14 I didn't 21:06:20 -!- vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:06:21 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:06:34 And... 21:06:37 the change is in. 21:06:54 dmiles_afk: now we want a performance report, ofcourse :-) 21:07:32 we have a benchmark that we use in house that Sun also uses (Sun runs our app since its the biggest worse case scenerio they've seen) 21:08:22 so i going to comment out our caceh and see what it does 21:08:27 ehu: philip was doing some FastStringBuffer things. Not sure if those have gone forward. 21:08:44 I didn't commit his unit tests yet. 21:08:57 but if you have time to test and commit them, please. 21:09:13 my application is in state of flux and I need it to be stable tomorrow ... :-( 21:09:20 so more hacking on ABCL today. 21:09:36 Well, work week starts again, no idea how much time will be spent on abcl. 21:09:47 np. 21:10:12 -!- wol [n=wol@c-98-207-129-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:10:13 I'm just announcing I need to do something else now. Dunno how long it will take. 21:10:37 I can try kicking^Wchecking on philip's current status :) 21:11:44 I don't think committing the test is a precondition to his patches, whenever they are ready to go. 21:11:55 But we can commit it if it seems useful, sure. 21:12:08 it'd be usefull to me 21:12:43 it's a FastStringBuffer unit test 21:13:07 I'll see if I can find time to look at it. 21:13:07 oh.. well i probly still have to run ansi-tests anyways 21:13:53 now it's time to turn in. Later, people 21:14:07 dmiles_afk: so you're running your application (which *includes* cycorp AI engines) on the jvm? 21:14:13 V-ille: later. 21:14:19 night V-ille 21:14:46 ehu: yeah.. it has some infernce benchmarks that really work the JVM 21:15:20 wouldn't it be easier to run it outside the jvm? 21:15:21 its very simular to ABCL code.. sam class heirchy etc 21:15:48 oh this is the codebase specifically written in java 21:16:08 Strav [n=user@dsl-216-221-36-82.aei.ca] has joined #lisp 21:16:41 ah. 21:16:42 ok. 21:16:48 it has overlap (ABCL (CL ( ) ) CYC) 21:17:07 well, I'd sure be interested to know about your performance gain using my latest commit. 21:17:35 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0FB67.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:18 he. I'm currently reading onlisp by mr. Graham and there's this passage where he describes several, basic, utility functions that are most usefull when writing some prog. This is all good and fine but I can't believe there's not a standard lisp library that's including 99,99% of them, is there? 21:19:21 sadly not, the best we have is CLHS which only lists 100% 21:19:22 you mean a lisp in lisp? 21:19:48 oh oops i thought Strav was ehu ;P 21:19:54 Strav: for example? 21:20:01 minion: tell Strav about alexandria 21:20:02 Strav: please look at alexandria: Shhh -- it's a secret! http://www.cliki.net/alexandria 21:20:11 ehu: ok going to test 21:20:48 -!- user_ [n=user@p5492566C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:20:48 Strav: Don't know if that covers everything you're thinking of. 21:21:49 minion: bah, some recusive mapping function to apply a function on every leaf of a tree, some tree pruning utilities, etc. Very general stuff that you would first think that it would be implemented in the standard clisp. 21:21:50 what is ``it''? 21:22:24 Strav: "tree"? 21:22:43 Strav: actually forget that 21:22:58 Strav: You'll probably realize half this stuff is useless once you get a bit more experience 21:23:05 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 21:23:23 well, mostly everything in chapter 4. That is, utility function for mapping, basic list operations and so on 21:23:38 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:05 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 21:24:26 ehu: 11366 vs 11365 ? 21:24:49 Strav: BTW, "clisp" refers to a particular implementation. "CL" is a better abbreviation. 21:25:58 vixey: well the book puts a great emphasis in the use of these utility functs, and it's quite obvious that they might come handy in lots of cases but my point is: those kind of function must surely exists in some lib named: lisp utility functs, or so. 21:26:02 (CL or Lisp) 21:26:09 Strav: the book being On Lisp? 21:26:09 sellout: thanks for the precision :) 21:26:13 yes. 21:26:29 Strav: I'd suggest you burn that if you had a physical copy 21:26:57 *sellout* looks at vixey 21:27:17 vixey: What do you have against On Lisp? 21:29:28 Strav, for good CL style, you should read Peter Seibel's Practical Common Lisp. Available freely online. On Lisp is supposedly good for its macrology, but it's not very idiomatic Common Lisp code. Moreover, you get very little CLOS as I've understood it. 21:29:31 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:30:20 I'm trying to install weblocks but the darcs link doesn't seem to work, anyone know where I can find it? 21:30:30 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 21:30:33 _8david [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 21:30:35 -!- lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:30:36 kzar: Dev or stable? 21:31:03 tic: I'm reading it precisely because I wish to get a clear description and understanding on the use of macros. For pure lisp style, there's norvig's paradigms of ai that seems most praised (and a very good challenge too) 21:31:16 Strav, excellent! 21:31:20 (dev is actually pretty stable right this second, but that's not guaranteed to continue) 21:32:12 anyways, I'll take a look at this secretive hence appealing thing called alexandria. 21:32:13 rlpowell: I'm not sure, whatever clbuild was expecting (the link it's using is this http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-weblocks/darcs/cl-weblocks ) 21:34:10 I've never used clbuild, but http://www.bitbucket.org/skypher/weblocks-stable/ is the current stable, in git. 21:36:27 rlpowell: Tah, I'll try and get it to use that 21:36:46 'k. 21:37:13 That tree is usuable as is, fwiw. I can walk you through it, maybe; depends on your CL imp. 21:37:34 read the manifest. Totally agree. 21:38:13 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 21:40:20 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 21:41:46 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:42:30 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@248.0.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 21:43:30 minion: sublime 21:43:31 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``sublime''. 21:43:38 minion: slime 21:43:40 slime: SLIME is the Superior Lisp Interaction Mode for Emacs. http://www.cliki.net/slime 21:43:50 minion: lisp 21:43:50 lisp: "Lisp in Small Pieces". This book covers Lisp, Scheme and other related dialects, their interpretation, semantics and compilation. To sum it up in a few figures: 500 pages, 11 chapters, 11 interpreters and 2 compilers. 21:47:58 ehu` [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-07980205de9f6b11] has joined #lisp 21:48:40 Wizard_ [n=wizard@90.150.216.184] has joined #lisp 21:48:46 -!- ehu` changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language: , . common-lisp.net back in service, please email problems to admin@common-lisp.net. New: usocket 0.4.0, ABCL 0.0.11 21:51:34 LiSP also has a very good chapter on macros, at least on their meaning and implementation 21:52:06 cool 21:52:25 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 21:52:36 i need to stop thinking of macros in termms of how i've used them in C 21:52:46 and also on all the problems with implementing macros :-) 21:52:46 macros in lisp seem to be more like functions 21:52:59 ah 21:53:10 zu22: they are: functions of source code 21:53:15 yes, they are functions but behave differently 21:53:52 they transform code! 21:53:55 -!- housel [n=nnnnnnnn@mccarthy.opendylan.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53:58 (or well, they transform lists.) 21:54:00 i mean in one sense they are normal functions but the system uses them differently 21:54:31 as tic said thye are mainly used to generate code, which is then evaluated 21:55:03 ehu`: i see 21:55:35 a meta function! 21:55:57 it gets called at runtime. 21:56:33 i just type code into the listp implementation 21:56:38 i didn't think there was a "runtime" in lisp? 21:56:49 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.127.111] has joined #lisp 21:56:50 there is. 21:56:53 oh 21:57:04 zu22, maybe the section "Runtime vs Compile Time" at http://mikael.jansson.be/journal/2008/09/i-like-macros would help? 21:57:18 tic: oh thanks, going off to read it 21:57:48 zu22: there's also 'load time' 21:58:02 does anybody have an example of a print-object method using logical blocks to print a tree as indented logical blocks? 21:58:48 zu22, and if that page doesn't work, see my comment at http://www.reddit.com/r/lisp/comments/749sx/i_like_macros/ (I think it's the same code) 21:58:50 rvirding: I get "Cannot get remote repository information. Perhaps git-update-server-info needs to be run there?", so I tried doing git-update-server-info http://www.bitbucket.org/skypher/weblocks-stable but then that gives me "fatal: Not a git repository". Any ideas? 21:59:04 ehu`: oh 21:59:13 tic: ok 21:59:20 don't confuse poor zu22. one concept at a time. :) 21:59:38 kzar: you've lost me there completely, sorry 21:59:44 kzar: I think you mean to be talking to me. :) 21:59:54 I misled you; it's not git, it's mercurial. 21:59:59 The CLI command is "hg". 22:00:04 tic: do you have a copy of that page, it keeps trying to connect to /mikael. 22:00:10 heh whoops sorry rvirding 22:00:12 etc but cannot 22:00:16 Too ... many ... versoning ... systems!!! 22:00:19 cheers rlpowell, I will see if I can get that working 22:00:33 tic: I think of "compile-time|load-time|execution-time" all as the same concept: a separation in different times. 22:00:34 ok, good, thought i had missed something 22:00:37 *rlpowell* has "weblocks" on highlight. :D 22:01:00 zu22, it's up again. 22:01:15 zu22, you want "Macros vs Functions", then maybe the rest. 22:01:44 tic: ok 22:02:40 zu22: this may also help getting a bird's view: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/116654/best-non-c-language-for-generative-programming#120284 22:03:47 attila_lendvai: ok i will read that also, thx 22:04:12 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:04:58 -!- Tankado [n=baaa@bzq-79-178-230-149.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [] 22:06:09 H4ns: usocket 0.4.0 is finally out! 22:06:45 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-224-239.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 22:08:07 just a small random interrogation: is it possible, at runtime, to compile a macro expansion? 22:08:20 yes 22:08:24 r5rs COMPILE 22:08:24 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for COMPILE. 22:08:29 froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 22:08:29 good thing ;) 22:08:32 clhs COMPILE 22:08:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_cmp.htm 22:09:37 vixey: I still would like to know why, besides of the winter coming, you suggested me to burn On lisp? 22:10:04 Strav: I obviously can't be bothered explaining my opinion, just ignore it 22:10:11 because Graham is a very special person? 22:10:27 possibly not indicative of what you can do with Lisp? 22:10:40 *ehu`* needs to be off 22:10:51 night all. 22:13:47 -!- ehu` [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-07980205de9f6b11] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:14:04 Strav: Graham is often criticized for the reasons tic mentioned above, but usually in regards to his other book, Ansi Common Lisp. 22:14:07 vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 22:14:28 rlpowell: http://groups.google.com/group/weblocks/browse_thread/thread/9f32aaed835471d1/b8bc8df098bea5e1?lnk=raot explains how to use it with clbuild 22:15:10 vixey: thing is, I found On Lisp to be an intuitive continuation to the ideas presented in SICP (if you know this one) as: while building your application towards the language, build the language towards your application. This is something we all tend to do in every language but as lisp dialects make it more convenient to do, I felt it would be an interesting way to explore. Is it this very approach you despise or? 22:15:26 kzar: Oh, sorry. 22:15:29 Strav: no that's fine 22:16:25 rlpowell: You where right with the link you gave me, that extra link just shows you how to get clbuild to use mercurial 22:16:28 well, since this seems to be the main point of the book. I don't understand. 22:17:52 anyways. I've certainly read more poisonous pages than those. 22:17:53 Strav: i am going through Graham's ACL 22:19:35 zu22: the graphs are at http://xach.com/moviecharts/ 22:20:03 Strav: it's a great book. have fun with it! you'll learn a lot. 22:21:17 Xach: thanks, you have a good memory! 22:21:22 alec [n=alec@pool-71-174-175-161.bstnma.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:21:53 it uses ECC 22:22:04 Xach: my name is also Zach{ary} 22:22:13 minion: ecc 22:22:14 Sorry, I couldn't find anything in the database for ``ecc''. 22:22:23 clhs: ecc 22:22:23 Sorry, I couldn't find anything for ecc. 22:22:49 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:23:11 zu22: wow! there are two of us! 22:23:36 Xach: heh, btw i don't see any lisp code on that page, is it private? 22:23:47 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:24:04 blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:22 mjmcevoy [n=user@pool-71-115-116-167.sangtx.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:52 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:58 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Sockets-Overview.html#Sockets-Overview <- states that all conditions in the sb-bsd-sockets code inherit from sb-bsd-sockets:socket-condition. this seems wrong. there is socket-error which inherits from error 22:27:14 check the code. not all errors in sb-bsd-sockets inherit from socket-error 22:27:36 jso [n=user@host-154-148-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 22:28:02 -!- adeht is now known as _adeht 22:29:22 Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:39 sleven [n=user@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:32:01 i want sbcl+hunchentoot+slime on ubuntu, should i apt-get them or install manually? 22:32:16 sleven: try clbuild 22:33:40 sykopomp|out [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 22:34:00 minion: clbuild 22:34:01 clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 22:34:57 -!- Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has left #lisp 22:35:38 ehu: I just wanted to say that the documentation needs fixing :) 22:36:46 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:37:06 blitz_: ah. ok. 22:37:16 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:37:57 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-196.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:38:24 ehu: i am running the ansi tests against both SVn version getting the total time 22:38:41 -!- spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 22:38:46 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-196.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 22:38:48 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:53 dmiles_afk: right. still doing that? 22:38:59 or getting the results? 22:39:58 _Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 22:40:09 -!- sqvirt [n=sqvirt@c-24-16-244-102.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:40:13 well i just got 670.071 for 11365 , 700.xxx for 11366 so reruning 22:40:38 -!- l_a_m_ [n=l_a_m@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:40:39 i am rebooting the machine now though 22:40:59 since that probly not right 22:41:00 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:41:26 -!- FZ [n=chatzill@unaffiliated/fz] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.17/2008082909]"] 22:41:31 forgot to rm -rf *.abcl 22:41:36 in ansi-tests 22:43:12 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:43:51 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:44:59 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 22:46:10 Ahh this is a pain in the arse, I have been going through each dependancy for weblocks fixing the broken links. Now I'm stuck on cl-base64, I fixed the link with a tarball but for some reason ./clbuild update cl-base64 comes straight back with "error: update was interrupted." 22:48:58 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 22:49:06 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 22:49:39 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:51:30 zu22: the code is not public. it uses vecto though. 22:51:31 :( 22:51:55 ehu, basically this change really should not change any speed.. what it does is correct future bugs with java interop 22:53:09 the future bug it corrects is when lisp expects the same object to return the same object with multiple calls to javaInstance() 22:54:20 so valueOf(value) is our better attempt 22:54:41 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 22:54:50 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:56:47 Character.valueOf(c) == ((Character)c) but new Character(c) != ((Character)c) 22:57:14 AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has joined #lisp 22:57:58 dmiles_afk: well, I hope it brings speedup; because the assumption that the objects would be the same would just be bogus most of the time. 22:58:09 even with caches around. 22:58:25 right no assumptions should ever be made ;P 22:58:28 for example, only integers between -127 and +127 get cached. 22:58:40 and that can change moth to month 22:58:53 *ehu* quickly dipped into the Integer.java code. 22:58:57 right. 22:59:06 I need to be in bed now, though. 22:59:10 thanks for your testing. 22:59:30 if there's a benefit with your own application, I'd like to know. 22:59:30 ok , yeah i am rerunning tests 1400secs to go 22:59:37 good ight. 22:59:39 night 22:59:52 -!- zu22 [n=ubuntu@unaffiliated/zu22] has left #lisp 23:00:32 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:00:33 Vekter [i=what@24-158-147-124.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:39 FLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANGFLASHBANG 23:00:45 -!- Vekter [i=what@24-158-147-124.dhcp.jcsn.tn.charter.com] has left #lisp 23:02:25 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-a9d5d93dd1a25349] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 23:02:55 -!- holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:03:08 -!- kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:06:03 Right I have given up for tonight, can't get it to install 23:06:09 kleppari [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 23:06:24 -!- vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:06:38 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:33 I'm having some issues getting portable aserve to install: 23:10:52 http://paste.lisp.org/display/69269 23:14:52 *rvirding* must go, good night 23:14:53 -!- Strav [n=user@dsl-216-221-36-82.aei.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:19 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 23:15:42 That's on OSX, on my slack box, I get the error that sb-thread:current-thread-id doesn't exist 23:16:44 Looking at the sbcl manual, I see sb-thread:*current-thread* 23:18:00 Draggor: My guess is that it is targetting an older version of SBCL 23:18:44 <_Jordan_> quick dumb question: if I use an unbound variable in SLIME's REPL, it seems to react differently than other errors, and if I try aborting from the debugger, it puts me in a weird limbo state where I can't evaluate new statements 23:19:03 <_Jordan_> how do I get out of that? 23:22:10 Is there another simple and lightweight webserver to use? 23:22:46 Draggor: do you know about hunchentoot? 23:22:59 minion: tell draggor about hunchentoot 23:22:59 draggor: please see hunchentoot: Hunchentoot is a web server written in Common Lisp and at the same time a toolkit for building dynamic websites. http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 23:23:03 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:23:07 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:24:02 hunchentoot requires a LOT of libraries 23:24:05 jso` [n=user@host-154-148-107-208.midco.net] has joined #lisp 23:24:44 so? 23:24:59 Draggor: But they are good libraries :) 23:25:15 Not arguing that, but it seems a bit much when I don't need all of that for what I'm doing. 23:26:31 Draggor: I guess I don't really notice or care much about using a lot of libraries. I already have half of cl.net installed, so I usually don't have to fetch anything new :P 23:27:34 _Jordan_: unbound variable errors should behave like any other error 23:27:34 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:36 Draggor: Take a look at CFFI 23:27:47 I'm guessing there's no single .tar.gz I can get for hunchentoot that includes it all? 23:27:59 (It also sounds like portable aserve is.. dead?) 23:28:13 qbg: What about it? 23:28:33 Crazy amount of libraries are required 23:29:00 Draggor: actually... sort of... 23:29:06 minion: tell draggor about clbuild 23:29:07 draggor: direct your attention towards clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 23:29:16 clbuild will automagically install everything you desire :) 23:29:45 I shall give clbuild a shot 23:30:18 crud, darcs? 23:30:41 yes 23:31:04 are we bothered by installing version-control? 23:31:10 :P 23:31:19 <_Jordan_> rottcodd: hmm, I wonder if my install is borked? :( 23:31:29 No, it'll just be the 3rd one I add =p 23:31:52 :P 23:32:47 _Jordan_: try rebooting your lisp image: M-x slime-restart-inferior-lisp 23:33:14 -!- jso [n=user@host-154-148-107-208.midco.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:34:15 <_Jordan_> rottcodd: yeah, that is what I have to do. Was just wondering if there was a way to fix it without restarting, thanks! 23:35:35 i wonder why none of the otherwise picky lispers complain about a shell script needed to install lisp libs... :) 23:36:00 _Jordan_: probably not without digging into the internals of slime 23:36:32 anyways, time to sleep... gn 23:36:52 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 23:37:36 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:37:55 -!- mjmcevoy [n=user@pool-71-115-116-167.sangtx.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 23:38:14 Lambda3 [n=daniel@66-189-171-179.dhcp.trlk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:38:29 -!- Lambda3 [n=daniel@66-189-171-179.dhcp.trlk.ca.charter.com] has left #lisp 23:39:38 do I wat darcs 1.0.9 or 2? 23:39:45 want* 23:41:00 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:44:03 -!- slava [n=slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has left #lisp 23:44:04 I'm using 2.0.2 23:44:32 -!- sykopomp|out [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:49:07 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:51:05 draggor: 2 23:51:12 or git :) 23:51:32 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:51:43 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 23:52:24 *Draggor* grabs hunchentoot via clbuild 23:52:36 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-224-239.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 23:54:45 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2F568.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:55:54 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has joined #lisp 23:56:41 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.127.111] has quit [Client Quit] 23:58:06 Lambda3 [n=daniel@66-189-171-179.dhcp.trlk.ca.charter.com] has joined #lisp 23:58:19 -!- Lambda3 [n=daniel@66-189-171-179.dhcp.trlk.ca.charter.com] has left #lisp 23:59:42 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"]