00:00:09 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:00:16 <_3b> _deepfire: don't rely on X? (and don't encourage other people to rely on it) 00:00:16 _deepfire: Let me guess, you can be efficient, but only if its useless 00:00:48 oh, X11, makjes more sense now 00:01:29 <_deepfire> no, not X11, my misreading CLHS again. 00:01:53 <_deepfire> er, not misreading. 00:04:52 <_deepfire> "An implementation may choose not to signal this error for performance reasons, but implementations are forbidden from defining the failure to signal an error as a useful behavior" in FUNCTION's specification. 00:06:21 blitz_ [n=blitz@pD95D5F87.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 00:08:29 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@pool-71-112-124-144.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:10:17 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@pD95D5F87.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:10:48 -!- pjb [n=chatzill@191.Red-83-45-221.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:11:29 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@pool-71-112-124-144.sttlwa.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:15:48 -!- Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit ["I'm big in Japan"] 00:16:40 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-36-67.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 00:18:46 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 00:20:37 clhs round 00:20:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_floorc.htm 00:20:48 _deepfire: ^^^ 00:21:07 specbot has so many specs .. you have to spec which spec 00:22:45 O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-247-205.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 00:23:04 -!- Nshag [i=user@99.a2c-250-158.astra2connect.com] has quit ["Quitte"] 00:28:49 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:32:15 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:32:54 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:37:53 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:38:08 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.220.208] has joined #lisp 00:42:51 ....the MOP is ridiculously amazing. 00:42:59 *sykopomp* is reading the MOP spec. 00:45:53 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-68-238-164-124.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 00:45:54 gerryxiao [i=HydraIRC@58.55.83.203] has joined #lisp 00:46:17 hello 00:46:17 ths [n=ths@X5dc7.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:46:34 which lisp is easy to learn for beginner? 00:49:04 -!- gerryxiao [i=HydraIRC@58.55.83.203] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- Po-ta-to, boil em, mash em, stick em in a stew."] 00:52:07 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 00:53:20 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:54:38 hmm I was going to suggest newLISP to gerryxiao but oh well 00:56:38 and eclipse 00:57:36 CUSP 00:57:37 :3 00:57:45 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X67e7.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:01:54 -!- jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:01:59 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:02:13 jao` [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 01:03:21 -!- Ifur [n=osm086@rasmus.uib.no] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 01:03:28 Ifur [n=osm086@rasmus.uib.no] has joined #lisp 01:03:29 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-00c86c13299afb34] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:03:31 -!- Ifur [n=osm086@rasmus.uib.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:04:07 S11001001: you wouldn't dare :) 01:04:44 sykopomp: the MOP is exactly that! :) 01:05:18 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:27 *drewc* responds to scrollback... it sure is quiet in here 01:06:16 drewc: I think my attempt at using the MOP may be misguided. 01:06:19 :( 01:06:50 sykopomp: what are you trying to do? 01:07:47 drewc: well, so I have this object system that handles the game objects. There's gonna be a time every now and then when I won't want all methods that act upon an instance to dispatch solely on that instance's class. 01:07:53 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 01:08:15 I might want, for example, a specific instance of the item class to do something special when called with a certain method, but only that instance 01:08:31 sykopomp: eql specializers 01:08:39 furthermore, but much less importantly, is the possibility of easily inheriting these methods 01:09:06 yeah, eql gets the first part, and I think the rest of it may just not be worth the bother, or that it might lead to some really ugly things. 01:09:37 <_deepfire> drewc, is it possible to eql-specialize on class instances? 01:09:39 (in essence, I was thinking that I might take some advantage out of a prototype-like system) 01:10:04 _deepfire: you mean (defmethod foo ((instance (eql *my-instance*))) ..) ? 01:10:47 <_deepfire> sykopomp, I see, yes.. 01:11:08 (you can do that. It's cool) 01:11:38 ya, exactly. 01:11:55 sykopomp: so, that's what eql specializers are for. 01:12:02 drewc: can I do something like (eql "green" (color *my-instance*)) and dispatch on that? 01:12:43 sykopomp: no .. what you do in that case is is, foo-using-colour 01:13:02 <_deepfire> sykopomp, I've just read Pascal Costanza's filtered dispatch paper aimed at exactly this kind of usage 01:13:02 hm? 01:13:05 Ifur [n=osm086@rasmus.uib.no] has joined #lisp 01:13:11 that was not clear at all .. my bad 01:13:15 <_deepfire> http://p-cos.net/documents/filtered-dispatch.pdf 01:13:17 _deepfire: link pls! 01:13:51 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2EE75.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:13:51 (thank you) 01:13:57 drewc: can you clarify? :P 01:14:00 sykopomp: assuming what you want is to dispatch a method based on the value of some slot... 01:14:31 yeah, that's what I'm looking at. 01:14:56 sykopomp: what you really want is to create another method called from your original method that includes the extra value as a parameter 01:15:23 sykopomp: ie SLOT-VALUE vs SLOT-VALUE-USING-CLASS 01:15:31 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 01:15:41 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:15:45 you want FOO and FOO-USING-COLOUR 01:16:03 without really following this conversation, I think this sort of thing is why I'm a little down on CLOS 01:16:32 time spent trying to adapt to frameworks rather than writing what you mean 01:16:34 hefner: because you cannot dispatch methods on the value of arbitrary slots in an instance? 01:16:48 -!- birdsbit` [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:16:55 no, because you feel compelled to try and use generic functions when they don't do what you want :) 01:17:01 <_deepfire> but, but, filtered-dispatch! 01:17:18 hefner: but they do.. it's either that or a COND. 01:17:31 hefner: the alternatives I can think of can make things look quite nasty. :< 01:17:34 hmm. that's the danger of not following the conversation. ;) 01:17:34 (like cond) 01:17:36 _deepfire: and yes, of course :) 01:17:55 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:17:59 drewc: I sort of get what you mean, but I don't entirely follow. 01:18:13 do you have a simple example of what methods for these might look like? 01:18:28 sykopomp: ok, you have a method FOO that takes an instance of BAR 01:18:29 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 01:18:33 yes. 01:19:13 you'd like to dispatch to a different FOO based on a slot of BAR-instance BAZ's value 01:19:53 so instead of a cond in the body of FOO, foo just calls FOO-USING-BAZ 01:20:29 ie: (defmethod foo (bar) (foo-using-baz bar (slot-value bar 'baz))) 01:20:46 <_deepfire> (defmethod handle-event ((event key-down-event)) (handle-keydown-event event (event-key event))) 01:21:20 -!- Zhivago [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.18] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:21:35 all the code goes into foo-using-baz for various foos with bazes, and bob's your uncle. 01:21:56 hmmmm 01:22:00 *drewc* admits that the fifth pint may have affected his ability to explain the trivial. 01:22:19 this is really quite simple! :) 01:22:38 it is. I don't know how pretty it would feel when implemented, though. 01:22:49 but certainly what I want, yeah. 01:22:56 Zhivago [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.18] has joined #lisp 01:23:07 sykopomp: it's wonderfully simple when implemented.. gives you faith in the MOP! 01:23:09 and looking at it, I think inheriting methods a-la-prototype systems might be a bit of a mess :< 01:23:28 so I may just go with this >_> 01:24:10 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:24:15 keep it simple.. CLOS can do 90% of what you need without hitting MOP ever, and macros can fake the rest. 01:24:34 but at 91%, the MOP reduces complexity 01:24:48 *drewc* is not even making sense to himself 01:25:42 drewc: I still want to help you, by the way. Last weekend got... complicated. :| 01:26:01 sykopomp: no worries, you know where to find me. 01:26:09 great :) 01:27:35 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:31:15 -!- manic12_ [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 01:32:47 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:33:41 Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 01:33:46 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:44:23 -!- jao` is now known as jao 01:45:55 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 01:52:42 -!- Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 02:00:43 Zhivago_ [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.18] has joined #lisp 02:01:12 -!- Zhivago [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.18] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:08:49 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:09:10 -!- jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:09:40 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:17 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:21:34 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:23:34 -!- Zhivago_ [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.18] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:26:26 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:32:50 Zhivago [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.18] has joined #lisp 02:34:28 medic33 [n=medic33@12-210-144-200.client.mchsi.com] has joined #lisp 02:35:07 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:35:43 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 02:38:50 -!- medic33 [n=medic33@12-210-144-200.client.mchsi.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 02:41:02 Aszarsha [n=Miranda@69.171.129.237] has joined #lisp 02:41:34 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@94.191.140.181.bredband.tre.se] has quit ["Miranda IM! 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lisp in ~200 lines of C 03:22:33 sctb [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:25:36 -!- Zhivago [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.18] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:26:52 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 03:28:42 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 03:31:45 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:32:03 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host243.190-137-180.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:35:26 codeFiend [n=anton@c-71-198-85-191.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:38:58 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:40:51 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:41:38 Zhivago [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.17] has joined #lisp 03:44:34 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:46:32 Why can't CL just have a way to seed the random generator with a number like everybody else?? 03:47:27 rlpowell: because any decent prng will have much more state than you're willing to type. 03:47:46 Having just run make-random-state to see what it prints out... yowza. 03:48:09 I studied crypto back in the day, but I never got into PRNGs; I had no idea. Thanks for enlightening me. 03:48:16 I take it CL's *is* fairly decent, then? 03:48:27 Most languages' built-in PRNGs are actively bad. 03:49:42 CL's PRNG is left undefined. 03:52:21 no rlpowell, bad rlpowell ;) 03:52:38 Huh. Given that there don't seem to be any PRNG libs on cliki, I'm surprised. 03:52:48 S11001001: :P 03:53:00 rlpowell: there's a portable implementation of MT19337 on cliki. 03:53:36 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:40 Ah, my apologies; I was thinking of something eles I think. 03:53:53 Oh, that's right; I was lookin for true-random (like /dev/random using) at the time. 03:54:04 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:55:05 random enough source devices will require access to os specifics (you can still open "/dev/random" if needed for instance and read from it) 03:55:49 *nod* 03:56:16 I was just a bit surprised that there wasn't a library to abstract away the OS specifics. I suppose I could get off my ass and write it, but my current project only needs Linux. :) 03:56:38 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:56:55 CL is weird like that: there are some *amazing* libraries, and most everything is covered, but every once in a while I find a hole where a library should be. Not a big deal, just curious. 03:57:09 (the situation is curious, I mean, in the sense of "strange") 03:57:34 froog____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 04:02:41 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:03:02 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:16 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 04:08:44 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:09:22 asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-71-178-249-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:10:33 hmm does openssl export a prng interface? If so, perhaps that cl-ssl also supports it, but I can't confirm 04:11:38 otherwise a possible problem is that most applications will require a specific type of rng so few are using language provided ones (in any language) 04:11:53 -!- asdf25 [n=jeff@pool-71-178-249-145.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 04:12:36 -!- froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:12:48 if you'd find an rc4 based prng I have an implementation linked at http://www.cliki.net/ARC4 04:12:58 s/prng/prng useful/ 04:13:33 (you'd still need to seed it with a reliable enough random source) 04:15:43 -!- cky [n=cky@202-74-219-83.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit ["Disconnecting from the Matrix"] 04:15:52 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.220.208] has quit [] 04:16:08 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:17:37 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:31:51 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4596B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:36:09 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:44:44 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 04:44:53 -!- george [n=george@189.107.151.93] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:47:41 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47A14.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:50:41 rlpowell: is there a good C library you would like to use? 04:59:58 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A10DC.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:00:05 I'm not aware of one; haven't looked, tohugh. 05:00:53 gnufs [n=ali@81.214.254.121] has joined #lisp 05:01:15 -!- gnufs [n=ali@81.214.254.121] has left #lisp 05:01:57 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-247-205.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit [] 05:03:34 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 05:05:50 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:06:56 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-171-115.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:08:18 -!- sctb [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 05:09:18 xolus [n=xolus@cpe-98-148-64-53.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 05:10:21 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-171-115.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:12:43 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-22-107.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 05:15:30 -!- ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:18:05 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:18:39 ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has joined #lisp 05:27:05 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:34:18 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:34:18 -!- azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:34:18 -!- sjbach [n=sbach@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:34:18 -!- Partyzant [n=Partyzan@rps312.ovh.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:34:18 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:34:18 -!- Wizard_ [n=wizard@90.150.123.45] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:34:18 -!- enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:34:18 -!- vcgomes[away] [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:34:18 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:34:18 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:34:18 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:34:18 -!- bougyman [i=bougyman@bougyman.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:34:18 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 05:34:38 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:38 Wizard_ [n=wizard@90.150.123.45] has joined #lisp 05:34:38 mikezor [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 05:34:38 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 05:34:38 Partyzant [n=Partyzan@rps312.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:38 sjbach [n=sbach@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 05:34:38 enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has joined #lisp 05:34:38 bougyman [i=bougyman@bougyman.com] has joined #lisp 05:34:38 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 05:34:38 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:38 azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 05:34:38 vcgomes[away] [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 05:34:38 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 05:39:40 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45DA2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:40:14 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-114-216.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 05:48:48 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.220.208] has joined #lisp 05:51:06 Zhivago_ [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.17] has joined #lisp 05:52:12 dto2 [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 05:58:04 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4596B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:02:35 -!- Zhivago [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.17] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:07:33 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 06:14:47 Archangel_13 [n=kevin@216-197-159-94.estv.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca] has joined #lisp 06:17:39 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 06:17:51 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-217-165.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:18:35 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.196.242] has joined #lisp 06:22:18 BubbaT [n=BubbaT@adsl-75-33-251-136.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:22:54 Hey are the abelson-sussman video lectures still available? I can seem to find them. 06:23:00 s/can/can't/ 06:23:29 creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 06:23:44 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 06:23:49 swiss.csail.mit.edu ? 06:24:24 http://swiss.csail.mit.edu/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures according to wget. 06:26:37 Hmm. This time I got redirected to http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/classes/6.001/abelson-sussman-lectures/ 06:26:52 Before I didn't get anything. 06:26:55 Thanks 06:31:12 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 06:33:12 -!- BubbaT [n=BubbaT@adsl-75-33-251-136.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 06:43:10 -!- xolus [n=xolus@cpe-98-148-64-53.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:45:52 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:48:00 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-36-217-165.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:49:24 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:49:50 -!- codeFiend [n=anton@c-71-198-85-191.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:01:50 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:05:49 -!- sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:08:33 perdalum [n=per@0x5552aaba.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 07:12:45 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 07:17:40 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:18:54 dsouth [n=dsouth@203-214-93-59.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:19:30 -!- Archangel_13 [n=kevin@216-197-159-94.estv.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca] has quit ["Beware of monkeys"] 07:22:07 -!- dsouth [n=dsouth@203-214-93-59.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:25:43 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c9b3047d8799f859] has joined #lisp 07:27:47 `Aszarsha [n=Miranda@69.171.129.237] has joined #lisp 07:27:54 creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 07:36:45 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:45:27 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:45:35 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 07:45:37 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:45:40 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:46:19 -!- perdalum [n=per@0x5552aaba.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [] 07:48:47 Is the procedure to get an account on cl.net still to write mail to admin@common-lisp.net? 07:48:47 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:49:49 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:50:20 as far as I know, it is 07:52:15 okay. We really need to get Albert commit access to clbuild. 07:57:11 agreed. he does good stuff. 08:06:50 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 08:11:19 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:12:41 anyone know of any other screencast series to watch? 08:12:42 morning 08:12:51 hi 08:12:57 albert would be someone posting to the mailing list I still haven't got set up to read, right? 08:17:47 benny [n=benny@i577A05A7.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 08:20:20 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 08:21:25 c|mell [n=cmell@v113243.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 08:23:14 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 08:23:17 jup; he set up his own clbuild repo where he collects patches 08:23:47 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:33:43 vasa [n=vasa@mm-96-186-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 08:35:21 schasi 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Everyone's asleep? Entertain me! :-) 10:46:22 :-P 10:47:07 making coffee now 10:47:28 tic: I suppose I could make an off-hand remark about Java being a much better language than Lisp for real-time robotics on the Commodore 64. The resulting flamewar is bound to be entertaining... 10:48:04 did any lisps run on the C-64? 10:48:36 locklace: I know the Commodore PET/CBM had at least one, so I wouldn't be surprised if it was ported by some insane lunatic. 10:49:12 Ah! http://lemonodor.com/archives/2007/11/microlisp.html 10:49:52 i probably would have gotten a lot further with a lisp available than with the equally unpalatable options of basic and assembly 10:50:03 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 10:50:59 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:51:05 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 10:51:27 locklace: I got quite a long way with Forth... 10:51:47 wow, forth would have been an improvement too 10:52:39 wait, does any java run on the C-64? 10:52:40 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 10:52:56 locklace: Absolutely. It was my third language (BASIC first, machine code second -- and yes, I mean machine code, entered in hexadecimal; no assembler for me!) 10:53:07 certainly not, that would be a crime against nature 10:53:13 hefner: Curses! You've found the flaw in my argument! 10:53:25 yeah, I'm totally awesome 10:53:43 hefner: And you have two teenage girlfriends! You da man! 10:54:11 what's the state of modern forth? any practical implementations with good libraries out there? i think i tried gforth once a few years ago 10:55:38 locklace, factor is popular 10:56:05 factor is pretty far from forth :) 10:56:57 locklace: It's still around, although I think the ANSI standardisation process kind of killed innovation (sound familiar?). It feels too primitive for my tastes nowadays, but for embedded stuff it still gets some love. 10:57:19 After all, a typical program in Forth takes up LESS space than the identical algorithm in assembler... 10:57:48 c|mell: that looks like fun 10:57:54 yeah that was about the same impression i left with last time i looked 10:58:05 -!- younder [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 10:58:22 *etfb* wonders if you could create a Lisp with Forth syntax somehow. The reverse would be trivially simple. 10:58:35 on the "ansi standard kills innovation" i can't help circling back to my thought that we really need an extra-standard library for CL :) 10:59:11 locklace: Ah, now THERE's a topic to give tic his requested entertainment... 10:59:18 etfb: istr some discussion on both those ideas on cll a while ago, maybe even some code posted 10:59:55 i'd love to see something for CL that's the equivalent of Boost for C++ 11:00:10 locklace: I tremble in fear at the concept of Forth and Lisp coming together to create some kind of ugly child with implicit stacks, macros and 11:00:23 "2+2" expressed in every combination of symbols... 11:01:02 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 11:01:22 hehe 11:01:45 pjb [n=chatzill@191.Red-83-45-221.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:01:51 Although I remember an old joke to the effect of (DEFMACRO FORTH (&REST FOO) (REVERSE FOO)) ... so (FORTH 2 2 +) executes (+ 2 2) and so on 11:02:17 :) 11:02:36 *hefner* just had a terrible idea 11:02:45 (FORTH "Hello, world~%" T FORMAT) 11:02:48 ... Naaah! 11:03:14 haha 11:04:00 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 11:04:18 (Oh gods... I wasn't sure of my syntax (I'm a LOT rusty) but sure enough, it worked... kill me now...) 11:04:38 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:04:52 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:06:38 w00p]wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-4db4eaef.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 11:06:42 hi there :) 11:07:25 -!- w00p]wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-4db4eaef.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Client Quit] 11:07:46 drive-by greeting 11:08:17 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.235.73] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:11:05 anyone familiar with Spirit for C++? hoping there's a lisp equivalent but striking out so far 11:11:26 http://svn.boost.org/svn/boost/trunk/libs/spirit/doc/html/index.html 11:12:08 topo [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has joined #lisp 11:12:13 w00p]wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-4db4eaef.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 11:12:20 hi again, ;) 11:12:22 hi? 11:12:22 can i ask something? 11:12:29 probably 11:12:36 hi 11:12:51 -!- ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:16:39 locklace: Cool! Like Lex and Yacc built into the language, is it? 11:16:55 I am currently exploring asdf, and I just wanted to ask how i would target a :depends-on on lisp-cgi-utils/lisp-cgi-utils.asd? 11:18:19 etfb: yeah, but so much nicer 11:18:22 my guess was :depends-on ("lisp-cgi-utils/lisp-cgi-utils") but that turned out to be wrong ;/ 11:19:05 etfb: it has a companion library called phoenix which is the coolest thing for C++ ever: http://spirit.sourceforge.net/dl_docs/phoenix-2/libs/spirit/phoenix/doc/html/index.html 11:19:27 appletizer [i=user@82-45-11-221.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:20:18 w00p]wakeup: Did you miss a quote there? 11:20:54 where? 11:21:36 w00p]wakeup: :depends-on '("lisp-cgi-utils/lisp-cgi-utils.asd") 11:21:58 etfb: well it could be but the howto I stuck to said otherwise 11:22:04 guess iw ill just try 11:22:31 w00p]wakeup: Weird. ASDF still uses Lisp syntax, so I'm surprised that it would allow that. Maybe it's a macro thing... 11:23:09 *w00p]wakeup* used http://common-lisp.net/~mmommer/asdf-howto.shtml 11:24:04 etfb: er, yes. defsystem is a macro 11:24:14 as are most def... 11:24:17 Fair enough then. 11:24:44 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:24:54 w00p]wakeup: generally you don't specify dependencies on .asd files, though 11:25:52 -!- etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 11:27:40 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:29:05 lnxz_ [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 11:29:21 -!- lnxz_ [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has quit [Client Quit] 11:33:15 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 11:34:37 peartizer [i=user@82-33-193-228.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:35:07 -!- peartizer is now known as Guest92508 11:35:34 -!- appletizer [i=user@82-45-11-221.cable.ubr04.hawk.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 11:35:48 -!- Guest92508 is now known as appletizer 11:36:01 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 11:36:24 can i ask something? 11:36:49 apparently not 11:37:17 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.235.73] has joined #lisp 11:37:19 im having a problem with lisp 11:37:25 its something simple 11:38:02 im trying to do an if else statement , but just the "then " part works , the else create wierd behaivors 11:38:23 im making this: 11:38:25 (if (< di 3) 11:38:26 (setf (sphero-r (nth j l)) 1 ) 11:38:26 (setf (sphero-r (nth j l)) 0 )) 11:38:36 any idea? 11:38:54 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:38:55 yeah 11:39:09 wait no 11:39:12 sry 11:39:14 no. but you lose points for copy&paste. 11:39:26 topo: there is nothung obviously wrong with that 11:39:27 and redundancy 11:39:27 : | 11:39:40 topo: you're sure that's really the code you're having trouble with? 11:39:42 its 3 lines, sorry, i thought i can paste until 3 lines 11:39:46 topo: if there's a problem, it comes from the rest of the program 11:39:55 hefner yes 11:40:01 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.160.97] has joined #lisp 11:40:11 because if i delete the "then" part the code works fine 11:40:27 kpreid: do I specify deps on lisp files directly then? 11:40:28 if i make this it works ok! 11:40:29 -!- Yuuhi` [i=benni@p5483F80A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 11:40:29 (if (< di 3) 11:40:29 (setf (sphero-r (nth j l)) 1 )) 11:40:36 *lichtblau* meant the redundancy, too 11:40:50 ummm 11:40:55 do you want to see my code? 11:41:04 lisppaste: url? 11:41:04 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 11:41:10 its just a list of spheres that collide 11:41:39 i want that , when they collide the color became red and when they not collide they return to the previous color 11:41:49 the problem is that the "then" statement doesnt work 11:42:15 topo: go to that url and put in your entire code 11:42:51 ok thanks 11:42:55 topo pasted "colliding balls" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69176 11:43:15 here it is 11:43:19 http://paste.lisp.org/display/69176 11:43:36 topo: aagh. please take out all that whitespace before closing parentheses. 11:43:38 the problem is in this line: (if (< di 3) 11:43:51 sorry im noobie 11:44:06 never put a closing paren on a separate line 11:44:35 ok, sorry im gonna fix it 11:45:07 di is the distance 11:45:25 when distance is less than 3 (collision] the ball change color 11:45:31 yes, I see 11:45:36 when its not it return to the previous color 11:45:51 the problem is when i add the "else" part it doesnt work 11:45:53 and when the second part of the if is enabled what goes wrong?g? 11:46:02 in what way does it not work? 11:46:10 it works but it doesnt work as is expected 11:46:15 be specific. 11:46:22 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@152.pool85-54-94.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:46:24 the code runs 11:46:31 the problem is that other balls change color 11:46:46 not the ones that are supposed to be 11:47:18 if i comment the else part it works fine 11:47:26 topo: use print: (setf (sphero-r (nth j l)) (if (< (print di) 3) 1 0)) 11:47:40 when they collide they change color , but they stay in that way , i want to return to the previous color when they not collide 11:47:41 Then you'll see if di ever comes below 3. 11:48:06 ok 11:48:06 topo: I can't see exactly where that comes in but there is a lot of stuff that you could do to make the program better and simpler 11:48:22 topo: I would suggest for now working on that and see if the bug becomes more clear 11:48:32 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 11:48:33 for one thing, stop using nth 11:48:47 why? 11:48:48 whats wrong with nth? 11:48:50 replace DOTIMES with DOLIST so your variables are the sphere objects, not indexes 11:49:00 because indexing in a list is expensive 11:49:07 work with the actual objects 11:49:07 NTH is O(index) 11:49:16 and don't write (* ... ...) but (expt ... 2) 11:49:42 Or better: (defun square (x) (expt x 2)) and use (square ...) 11:49:51 ok 11:49:58 topo: oh wait, I see a problem 11:50:04 :O 11:50:08 which one? 11:50:18 topo: you loop over i, and j within it 11:50:25 eys 11:50:28 yes 11:50:34 and set the jth sphere according to the distance... 11:50:36 is that bad? 11:50:39 does (* x x) not get optimized to generate the same code as (expt x 2)? 11:50:48 If there's a different sphere that's farther the color is reset. 11:50:49 so the color will be determined by the *LAST* sphere to be examined in the outer loop 11:50:58 yes 11:50:59 presumably you want to set the color if ANY sphere is near 11:51:00 locklace: leave optimization up to the compiler. Write clear code! 11:51:14 kpreid , just one ball change color when i put the else part 11:51:27 pjb: hence the question 11:51:41 (square x) is clearer. 11:51:54 yes 11:52:00 pjb: yes, but i think (* x x) in its definition is clearer than (expt x 2) 11:52:01 as a clisp user, pjb's opinions on optimization suspect :) 11:52:01 topo: I don't know, but this is definitely wrong 11:52:02 kpreid so how can i fix it? 11:52:07 is there documentation for the docstring syntax used by SBCL and texinfo-docstrings? 11:52:14 : < 11:52:28 why is wrong? 11:52:32 topo: one way would be to do one pass resetting the colors to 0, then do the compare everything and only set to 1 11:52:51 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 11:53:17 (setf (sphero-r sphere) (if (some (lambda (other) (and (not (eq sphere other)) (< (distance sphere other) 3))) spheres) 1 0)) 11:53:43 kpreid what do you mean with jth? 11:53:43 vy pasted "vecto path stroke" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69177 11:53:53 nth? 11:53:53 topo: the sphere (nth j l) 11:53:54 You'd do that outside of your loop of course. 11:54:18 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 11:54:23 topo: also, you have drawing and state-changing stuff mixed up together...it would be a good idea to separate all the state-changing stuff (x, y, r) into the animate function like it should be 11:54:31 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 11:54:54 Xach: Do you have any ideas about the above vecto problem? 11:55:56 yes i know kpreid 11:56:08 but first iwant to make it work , then im gonna fix the code 11:56:29 topo: if you modify the code to be clear and simple, it will be easier to find the problem 11:56:35 milanj [n=milan@79.101.196.242] has joined #lisp 11:56:46 and mixing state-changing and drawing makes it harder to think about what will be drawn. 11:56:55 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.196.242] has quit [Client Quit] 11:57:25 kpreid why do you say it just check the last element in the list? 11:57:33 i dont understand very well 11:57:35 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:57:48 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 11:57:56 topo: first let me say that this is an algorithm problem, not at all a lisp problem 11:58:02 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 11:58:27 think about this: when you have that if with both branches, it *always* overwrites sphero-r for that sphere 11:58:51 ummmm 11:58:51 now, you have 49*49 spheres 11:58:57 er 11:59:04 you have 49 spheres and 49*49 comparisons 11:59:11 so you can't possibly get the right colors that way 11:59:13 but im making an iteration and nested iteration 11:59:17 yes 11:59:24 so there are 49*49 tests 11:59:29 i still cant get it 11:59:33 AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has joined #lisp 11:59:34 ummmm 12:00:54 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:02:12 topo: each time you execute the if, it is setting the color of a sphere. you are executing it 49*49 times. there are only 49 spheres. so you are changing the color multiple times 12:03:34 you need a sort of logical-or. there are many possible pairings that will make any given sphere the marked-color; and so it should be that color if *any one* of them, not just the last one, is within the distaNCE 12:04:42 but why when i comment the else part it works fine? 12:04:50 oh i think i get it 12:05:02 but why does it work fine withouth the else part? 12:05:53 topo: when you have no else part, does a sphere ever *stop* being yellow? 12:06:26 no 12:06:34 that's what's happening. 12:07:27 when i dont have the else part all the sphere are yellow and when it collides they became green 12:07:37 but they still green even when they are not colliding 12:08:03 oh, got the colors backwards. anyway, 12:08:14 when you put in that else branch, you are resetting the spheres' color *too often* 12:08:29 ohhh i see 12:08:49 I'm reading the spec for file-position. Did anybody ever use that function? It looks rather useless, since it's allowed not-to-be-implemented (ie, always return nil) 12:09:31 thanks kpreid 12:09:42 im gonna try to fix it 12:12:18 froog_____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 12:12:26 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.160.97] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:13:03 ehu: the allowance is for streams such as pipes, where there's no file position even in the underlying system. 12:13:20 ehu: no sane CL implementation use this allowance to avoid implementing it correctly when it's possible. 12:14:08 -!- photon2 is now known as photon 12:19:10 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084126.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 12:22:15 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:23:00 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 12:23:38 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:23:43 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:24:14 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 12:26:26 heh :-) 12:27:01 I used google codesearch and could not find any packages actually using this call to set stream positions. 12:27:10 but, thanks for the heads up. 12:28:33 *tic* has just sent out an e-mail to the Vim-dev group on an ECL patch... 12:28:42 -!- froog____ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:28:53 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 12:29:14 maybe with a better editor you could keep your mailing lists straight. 12:29:47 tic: warning: you might have started a flame war 12:30:10 njsg, I think people are immune by now. 12:30:18 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 12:30:24 hefner, :-) 12:31:12 Ifur [n=osm086@rasmus.uib.no] has joined #lisp 12:31:44 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:31:54 perdalum [n=per@0x5552aaba.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 12:34:07 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 12:35:01 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:42:59 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 12:48:03 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:51:43 -!- froog_____ is now known as froog 12:52:51 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-17-159.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:53:23 Zhivago_ [n=Zhivago@203.222.167.145] has joined #lisp 12:54:16 another style question: suppose you've got a class and have some slots that will be used for internal things but not exposed as part of the interface. is it better to not define accessors for them and instead use slot-value to refer to them? 12:55:08 that's one style. another is to not export their accessor, and perhaps give it a scary name. 12:55:46 ok, by 'not export' you mean at the package level? 12:55:57 yes 12:57:08 yeah, i guess the question is really whether the accessors defined in class definitions are always considered part of the external interface, or not 12:57:20 and i guess the answer is, you can set it up either way 12:59:23 if there was a definition for 'external interface' it would most probably be similar to exported symbols from package 12:59:32 controlling the interface at package export level rather than at class definition level seems like a good general approach 12:59:37 yep 12:59:45 -!- cmeme [n=cmeme@boa.b9.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:59:52 i think using slot-value instead of accessors to enforce some kind of interface is stupid 13:00:58 Zhivago__ [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.17] has joined #lisp 13:01:14 it's not uncommon. if your package is very large, it's very tempting. 13:02:11 maybe but its convenience you are talking about 13:02:16 not about interfaces 13:03:00 that makes no sense at all 13:03:13 what doesnt make sense ? 13:03:15 locklace, there's always :: too. 13:03:35 there's no convenience in fussing around with interfaces, regardless of how you do it 13:03:52 there is convenience in not declaring 200 accessors 13:04:03 not if it means you type slot-value 1000 times instead 13:04:07 tic: um, for what? i have it in the "red flag" category 13:04:07 with DEF* you don't have to. ;) 13:04:16 locklace, for hiding stuff from your users. 13:04:43 DEFCLASS* even. 13:05:22 -!- Zhivago [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.17] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:05:49 In the libs I create, you should definitely worry if you're using :: ; those functions may disappear any time. 13:06:24 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-44-197.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 13:07:42 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483F80A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:01 medic33 [n=phil@69.85.194.62] has joined #lisp 13:09:56 -!- prip [n=_prip@host12-122-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:10:26 if i define a class in a package, what needs to be exported to be able to use the class and subclass it in another package? 13:10:54 all the accessors and slot-names too? 13:11:39 -!- jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [] 13:11:44 just the class itself i imagine 13:12:41 -!- Zhivago_ [n=Zhivago@203.222.167.145] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:13:50 it's always said that "alists are likely to be faster than hash tables for small data sets", but there's never any more detail. granted it'll be implementation-dependent to some extent, but has anyone attempted to quantify this at all? 13:14:09 -!- m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:14:32 probably, yes. you could, too. 13:14:40 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:14:50 bascule [n=bascule@static-ip-62-75-255-124.inaddr.intergenia.de] has joined #lisp 13:14:52 i could, i was just hoping for an easy reference ;) 13:15:32 i seldom bother with alists 13:15:35 ISTR someone around here mentioning the cutoff seemed to be around 30 items for them. I may remember incorrectly. 13:16:07 (and they might not have meant exactly alists, either) 13:16:17 ok, that's interesting 13:16:46 it depends what you're hashing, as you can imagine 13:16:59 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:17:05 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:17:18 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.235.73] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:17:39 yep, also wonder what the space difference is like 13:17:47 Nshag [i=user@99.a2c-250-158.astra2connect.com] has joined #lisp 13:17:57 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.235.73] has joined #lisp 13:19:08 kij` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 13:19:22 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c9b3047d8799f859] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:20:00 ah, http://www.faqs.org/faqs/lisp-faq/part2/section-2.html has some info 13:20:07 doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 13:25:11 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 13:25:57 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 13:26:35 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:27:13 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@72.228.150.44] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:28:32 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:29:01 photon2 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 13:29:23 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:29:33 -!- photon2 is now known as photon 13:31:40 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.196.118] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:32:55 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1F730.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:33:49 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1E38B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:48 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:36:16 younder [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 13:42:19 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 13:42:55 Last time I benchmarked it I got a cutoff of 5 for sbcl and 30 for clisp. 13:43:39 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Client Quit] 13:46:28 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:47:16 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.166.137] has joined #lisp 13:47:47 -!- m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:48:12 m4thrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 13:48:51 locklace, it's not only speed but also space and initialization time 13:49:03 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.141.235] has joined #lisp 13:49:18 yes, so i am wondering about those too 13:49:55 Soulman [n=kvirc@62.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 13:50:07 -!- mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-084-022.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:50:46 mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-084-022.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:51:47 perdalum_ [n=per@0x5552aaba.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 13:51:47 -!- perdalum [n=per@0x5552aaba.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:52:31 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 13:52:53 *rvirding* hello everyone 13:57:36 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 13:59:39 myrkraverk` [n=johann@85-220-125-230.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 14:00:52 locklace: then obviously, hash-tables will be more costly at initialization and overhead space than a-lists... 14:01:38 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 14:02:26 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.5] has joined #lisp 14:02:48 yes, the question is what the typical constant space footprint and init overhead is 14:03:29 For example, in clisp on my computer, make-hash-table takes 9.7µs more than NIL, to initialize the container... 14:03:47 So if you have to prepare a lot of containers, ... 14:03:54 Like trillions of them... 14:04:01 is there a way to see how much mem a thing is consuming? 14:04:13 Perhaps you'd be out of memory before time becomes a problem.\ 14:04:32 locklace: it's harder. Calling (ROOM) before and after can help. 14:04:35 this line of reasoning is not productive 14:04:38 How does one get a list of slots of a passed in struct? 14:05:04 herbieB: for struct, there's nothing in CL to do that. 14:05:30 herbieB: perhaps your implementation provide some implementation specific reflexive API for struct? 14:05:34 you read the struct definition, and start typing.. (list (struct-field-1 ..) (struct-field-2 ..) ..) 14:05:49 pjb: Thanks, it needs to be portable. 14:06:02 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 14:06:04 herbieB: otherwise, you could use a CLOS object, or define the structure with your own bookkeeping macro. 14:06:17 hefner: Yes, I was afraid that was the answer. 14:06:23 pjb: Yep. 14:06:30 of course, if you don't care what the names of the slots are.. 14:07:03 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:07:29 hefner: Unfortunately I do. 14:07:42 locklace: on sbcl, the time function will also report the number of "consed bytes" 14:08:18 herbieB: no (defstruct (mystruct (:type list)) ..slots..) then? 14:08:21 phadthai: guessing that won't help me see how much space a hash table is consuming 14:08:37 herbieB: see http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/8e06a7470724aa38?pli=1 and http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/f687db3424753775 14:08:53 I can't confirm but I believe its use of "consed" there is for historical reasons and that it includes bytes allocated for other objects than conses 14:08:59 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@152.pool85-54-94.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 14:09:29 it would be easy to test 14:09:31 phadthai: among Lispers "cons" is synonymous with "allocate" 14:09:36 right 14:10:59 Hrm. How does one allocate data, anyway? 14:11:00 (time (make-list 100)) says 0 bytes consed 14:11:42 hefner: No, more's the pity. 14:11:52 very small allocations, like very small durations, might not measure properly 14:12:47 pjb: Yep, I'm going to be writing something similar to that. Thanks :) 14:13:11 well, (time (make-hash-table :size 100)) also says 0 bytes consed so it doesn't seem very useful for telling how much memory a hash table is consuming... 14:13:54 hmm it reports 4,040 bytes consed. here 14:14:18 with i386 sbcl 1.0.16 that is 14:14:46 this is sbcl x86 1.0.21 14:15:08 Well, if you need 100 entries, a hash-table is definitely worth it, vs. an a-list. 14:15:28 (make-hash-table) takes 116 bytes in clisp. 14:15:42 That's 116 vs. 0 for a NIL a-list. 14:16:02 does Clisp lazily allocate the hash's storage? 14:16:07 remports 0 bytes consed on my sbcl, so I guess indeed you can't rely on "consed bytes" time reports 14:16:20 s/remports/reports/ 14:16:24 (room) before and after? 14:16:26 kreuter: not more than sbcl, you can always start with a small empty hash-table. 14:16:46 ttt-- [n=ubuntu@d515336D7.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 14:17:18 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 14:17:40 The question being comparizon with a-lists. Assume you have a lot of containers, mostly empty (or small). It's better to have a-list, initialized to NIL, with small time and space overhead for small containers, than pre-allocating a lot of hash-table with more overhead. 14:17:40 room reports here always vary even without additional instructions so I guess it's also of limited use 14:18:30 I usually do (time (loop repeat 10000 do ...)) 14:18:53 tic: doing (progn (room) (make-hash-table :size 100) (room)) results in a difference of 835k in "Dynamic space usage" :) 14:19:26 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:19:27 if i define a :before and an :after method, but no primary one, does the resulting method combination contain these methods? 14:19:59 timor: the effective method will signal an error. 14:20:47 kreuter: and if i define a more specialized method on a subclass, both of these methods are silently ignored? 14:21:09 no. 14:21:20 clhs 7.6.6.2 14:21:20 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/07_ffb.htm 14:21:29 "In standard method combination, if there is an applicable method but no 14:21:29 applicable primary method, an error is signaled." 14:21:40 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 14:22:30 it's fine to have auxiliaries that specialize on superclasses for which there's no primary method. 14:22:46 the auxiliaries will be applicable to instances of subclasses, and so will get run. 14:22:53 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.141.235] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:23:10 however, auxiliaries will only get run if there's an applicable primary. 14:23:38 (this is a way in which :AROUND methods differ from primary methods that call CALL-NEXT-METHOD.) 14:24:16 kreuter: thanks, that is the behaviour i want, but somehow the aux methods dont get called 14:24:36 maybe you are not doing what you think you are doing 14:24:54 hmm 14:25:06 its fairly simple thinking, so i think i am 14:25:33 well, what are the alternatives? That your computer is lying to you? 14:25:59 timor: can you paste your methods (at paste.lisp.org)? 14:26:13 i hoped nobody would ask 14:26:18 one way in which you might not be doing what you think you're doing is that your subclass might not in fact be a subclass 14:26:28 another way might be that your sources do not correspond to your running lisp 14:26:31 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:26:33 check these things, and similar things 14:26:35 -!- perdalum_ [n=per@0x5552aaba.adsl.cybercity.dk] has left #lisp 14:26:47 -!- younder [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:27:03 ok 14:27:33 I've had trouble with inconsistent running lisp relative to my source when working with clos also, so I also suggest trying a simple test on a fresh lisp runtime 14:31:54 kpreid 14:31:56 you there? 14:34:01 schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 14:34:20 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:35:00 *rvirding* goodbye for now 14:35:06 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 14:35:14 is it possible to have a generic function defined in one package that specializes on some class of that package, then you export the class, and in another package define a generic function which as incidentally the same name as the first generic function? 14:35:28 you export symbols 14:35:37 best of google leading to me: "lisp program to insert door" 14:35:44 so, if you were to rephrase your question in terms that weren't misleading or wrong, "yes" 14:36:08 somebody's cheerful today. 14:37:19 timor: if foo:fun and bar:fun are distinct symbols, they can name different functions. 14:37:26 topo: don't ask that question, ask your actual question. 14:37:40 kpreid i fixed 14:37:47 it was something stupid 14:38:08 can i paste here 3 lines of code? 14:38:42 check kpreid i make this and now it works 14:38:43 (if (< di 3) 14:38:43 (setf (sphero-r (nth j l)) 1 ) 14:38:43 (setf (sphero-r (nth i l)) 0 )) 14:38:57 i changed the second j with "i" 14:39:00 and worked 14:39:13 but i still cant understand why 14:39:43 it didn't work. only by chance you got some results looking like it worked. 14:40:36 mmmm 14:40:47 the results worked 14:40:51 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.141.235] has joined #lisp 14:41:03 why do you say it didnt work? 14:42:40 it doesn't work while you don't know why it works 14:42:48 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:43:09 ummm 14:44:45 imagine three spheres, 0 at position 0, 1 at position 1, 2 at position 20. you will test 0-1, 0-2, 1-0, 1-2, 2-0, 2-1 ; since 2 is father than 3 units from 0 and 1, you'll be setting spehro-r of spheres 0 and 1 to 0 after having set it to 1 because 0 and 1 are close. 14:45:08 not talking to topo would actually improve the quality of the channel tenfold 14:45:37 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 14:46:09 ummmm 14:47:06 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:47:30 younder [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 14:47:59 Cons means constructed 14:48:03 topo: also, you're doing all the work twice. 14:48:22 ummm 14:48:32 what does father means? 14:48:49 s/father/farther/ more far 14:48:57 a touple of two words 14:49:03 wow. 14:49:08 ah ok 14:49:38 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:49:48 lisp is hard to me 14:49:55 i used to program python and processing 14:50:21 younder: you said you would go away for three years. Please do so 14:50:46 topo: the problem you're having has nothing to do with lisp; it is a problem of designing the right algorithm for the problem 14:51:23 ok im gonna draw a driagram to try to understand better, thanks for the advices 14:51:26 topo: try (let ((spheres '(one two three four))) (loop :for remaining-spheres :on spheres :for a = (car remaining-spheres) :do (loop :for b :in (rest remaining-spheres) :do (print (list a b))))) 14:51:38 ok 14:51:47 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:51:58 s/car/first/ 14:52:26 minion: tell topo about gentle 14:52:26 topo: look at gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 14:52:35 pjb 14:52:43 i got this: 14:52:51 (ONE TWO) 14:52:51 (ONE THREE) 14:52:51 (ONE FOUR) 14:52:51 (TWO THREE) 14:52:51 (TWO FOUR) 14:52:52 (THREE FOUR) 14:52:53 topo: if you have difficulties adapting to lists, try CL: A Gentle Intro... 14:52:55 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:53:09 ok thanks 14:53:10 topo: we all knew that you'd get that... 14:53:23 but what does it means? 14:53:45 It prints all the unique couple of spheres. 14:54:01 why do you want me to print that? 14:54:43 The code you pasted before, using (dotimes (i 49) (dotimes (j 49) ...)) computes all the distances twice. 14:55:08 ummmm 14:55:13 oh i understand now 14:55:23 Good. 14:55:43 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-225b0a7595900270] has joined #lisp 14:55:45 it works ok , but the problem is that is computes all the distances twice so its not too effective 14:56:11 It doesn't compute the colors correctly. 14:56:26 pjb now its working fine 14:56:47 If you didn't change anything, it still depends on the order of your spheres. 14:56:59 i changed this: 14:57:00 (setf (sphero-r (nth i l)) 0 )) 14:57:14 in the else part of if 14:57:28 This is not correct. 14:57:28 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 14:57:29 before i had (setf (sphero-r (nth j l)) 0 )) 14:57:40 i changed j for i and it worked fine 14:57:44 The color should not depend on the order of the spheres. 14:58:01 why not? 14:58:05 But when you assign 0 or 1 like this inside the loop, the final value will depend on the order of the sphere. 14:58:23 Because I thought you wanted to set the color according to the distance. 14:58:36 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:57 ummmmm 14:59:16 How do you define the color? What color should it be, under what condition? 14:59:38 pjb wanna see the code? 14:59:42 -!- dnm_ [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:59:49 lisppaste! 14:59:54 ok 15:00:09 But I want you to explain it in English. 15:00:21 ok continue 15:00:55 topo pasted "asdsd" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69185 15:01:09 here it is 15:01:10 http://paste.lisp.org/display/69185 15:01:16 this is the code that is working ok 15:01:54 this it the condition 15:01:54 (if (< di 1.4) 15:01:56 To know if it is working ok, you have first to give the specifications. What color should the sphere be, under what condition? 15:01:57 di is distance 15:02:19 -!- medic33 [n=phil@69.85.194.62] has left #lisp 15:02:24 if distance is less than 1.4 then color is yellow 15:02:26 Then your code is incorrect. 15:02:41 (setf (sphero-r (nth j l)) 1 ) 15:03:24 would 1 be a direct value or boxed? (thinking of what the difference between using 1 and 'ON would be) 15:03:32 (or hey, T/NIL for that matter) 15:05:17 tic: in sane implementations, FIXNUMs are unboxed, and 1 is always a FIXNUM. But in this particular case the number is actually a number, not a silly-boolean. 15:05:33 kpreid, oh, I see. Sorry. 15:05:42 pjb what are specifications? 15:05:45 what do you mean? 15:05:51 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.155.52] has joined #lisp 15:06:02 topo, description of the problem you're trying to solve, in plain English, without any code. 15:06:46 actualy why not move topo to #cl-gardeners or somewhere 15:06:47 topo: notice that there is not a single distance. There are N*(N-1) distances. 15:06:56 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:11 whats N? 15:07:22 topo: each sphere is attached to N-1 distances. Some of them may be less, some of them may be more than 1.4. 15:07:30 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 15:07:31 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student166-32.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 15:07:46 N being the number of spheres. IT SHOULD NOT BE 49! 15:07:59 (but 42!) 15:08:07 here s how to http://paste.lisp.org/display/69187 15:08:15 so you are saying me that it is not calculating the same distance everysphere? 15:08:22 topo: so when you say the sphere is yellow when di<1.4, you've not said enough. 15:08:37 rtace all functions an a package 15:08:43 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.141.235] has left #lisp 15:08:47 topo: I'm saying that depending on the order in which you consider these distances, you won't get the same answer. 15:09:00 younder, pretty sure nobody cares 15:09:01 survice of me and peter O klingenberg 15:09:02 when the distance is less than 1.4 it means they collide , when they collide they change color to yellow 15:09:09 (the exoprt option) 15:09:24 pbj and whats wrong with that? 15:09:48 topo: assume three spheres. one a 0, one at 1, one at 20. Since 0 and 20 are at distance>1.4, they don't collide. 15:10:02 topo: so 0 shall not change to yellow. 15:10:06 medic33 [n=phil@69.85.194.62] has joined #lisp 15:10:17 pbj i think you dont understand 15:10:26 i have a lot of spheres moving randomly in the space 15:10:39 only if they collide they change color 15:10:45 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-96-186-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:10:50 topo: we all understand that 15:10:55 topo: Who collides? They dont all collide together!? 15:11:01 no 15:11:10 pjb wanna see a pic? 15:11:24 its not when all collide together 15:11:30 its when 2 spheres collide 15:11:34 younder: don't PM me 15:11:37 but i have a lot moving randomly 15:11:45 younder: (or reply to this message) 15:11:45 wanna see a pic? 15:11:52 So when you have three spheres, two collide, but the third is far away, depending on the order in which you consider them you will be resetting the color when you consider the sphere that's far away. 15:12:06 What message? 15:12:17 vasa [n=vasa@mm-99-186-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 15:12:30 ? 15:12:39 topo: you cannot just say (< di 1.4) because you don't have ONE di, you have N di. 15:12:48 old joke harass younder 15:12:53 Some of the di may be < 1.4, some >= 1.4. 15:12:55 ignore it 15:13:13 but (< di 1.4) is inside 2 nested iterations 15:13:14 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:13:43 topo: you need to make the sphere green if ANY of the applicable (< di 1.4) is true. 15:14:05 topo: You have several cases: all the di are <1.4 (all the spheres collide together); some di<1.4, and some di>=1.4 (collision with some spheres but not all); all di>=1.4 no collision with the other spheres. 15:14:10 topo: instead, you are considering EACH one and overwriting the previous decisions 15:14:37 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:47 so only the last has any visible effect 15:15:00 kpreid now is working fine 15:15:15 check 15:15:15 http://paste.lisp.org/display/69185 15:15:30 I think if you study it you will find that some spheres are not green when they should be 15:15:35 topo: only when the spheres are in a specific order. If you change the order of the spheres, you'll get a different result. 15:15:41 i changed the else from if distance to i 15:16:12 ummmm 15:17:03 i think it works fine 15:17:19 im watching the app and they behave as expected 15:17:45 pjb what do you mean with change the order of the spheres? 15:17:49 change the order where? 15:17:55 well then, you should concentrate on improving the structure of your code 15:18:09 like eliminating all the repetition in your distance competition, and use of nth 15:18:22 You need to cut it into shorter functions 15:18:24 ok 15:18:29 im gonna fix now 15:18:36 what should i use instead of nth? 15:19:36 replace dotimes with dolist, and just have a variable which IS your sphere struct, not the index of it 15:19:51 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:20:18 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 15:20:21 which is the diference between dotimes and dolist? 15:20:34 clhs dotimes 15:20:34 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_dotime.htm 15:20:38 clhs dolist 15:20:38 dotimes provides integers, dolist provides elements in a list 15:20:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_dolist.htm 15:20:53 so dolist gets what you need to do done more directly and far more efficiently 15:21:49 kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 15:22:16 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:22:51 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:23:13 ok 15:23:59 PCL, anyone? 15:26:06 im trying to do self organizing sysmtes 15:26:08 systems 15:26:52 topo, have you read the book Practical Common Lisp? 15:27:02 no 15:27:17 is it good? 15:27:25 minion, tell topo about pcl-book 15:27:26 topo: look at pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 15:27:46 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 15:27:54 topo, for me, it's The Lisp book. I found it extremely useful in the beginning. Perhaps it could be useful for you too? 15:28:19 (I noticed the discussion on dotimes/dolist/elt/nth) 15:28:20 ok im gonna check, looks interesting 15:28:21 thanks 15:28:31 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:29:51 pjb annotated #69185 with "it does not work" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69185#1 15:30:15 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-99-186-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:30:16 topo: try the simulation I annotated your paste with, and see how it doesn't work. 15:30:43 ok 15:30:45 -!- Wizard_ [n=wizard@90.150.123.45] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:26 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:31:26 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:31:26 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:31:26 -!- bascule [n=bascule@static-ip-62-75-255-124.inaddr.intergenia.de] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:31:26 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:31:26 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:31:26 -!- hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279440976.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:31:26 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:31:26 -!- enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:31:30 why you say it doesnt work? 15:31:39 bascule [n=bascule@static-ip-62-75-255-124.inaddr.intergenia.de] has joined #lisp 15:31:58 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 15:31:58 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 15:31:58 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 15:31:58 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:58 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 15:31:58 hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279440976.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:31:58 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 15:31:58 enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:10 -!- medic33 [n=phil@69.85.194.62] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:32:59 ? 15:33:15 Wizard_ [n=wizard@89.20.107.102] has joined #lisp 15:33:58 pjb annotated #69185 with "corrected simulation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69185#2 15:34:10 :O 15:34:29 pbj can you make it work my code? 15:34:39 do you have opengl? glut.lisp? 15:34:49 topo: sorry, made a typo. See the correction. The spheres 0 and 1 which are colliding are not both yellow. 15:34:55 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 15:35:13 topo: no, I don't have opengl. That's another problem with your code, it's monolithic. 15:35:14 whats a typo? 15:35:22 Typographical error. 15:35:28 whats monolithic? 15:35:49 Mono = one; lithic = stone ; monolithic = onestone. 15:35:56 of or pertaining to single stones 15:36:10 topo: aren't you a Spanish speaker? 15:36:12 the stone is the operating system? 15:36:21 topo: he's trying to say that your code is so broken it looks like someone smashed it with a giant rock 15:36:26 you mena that just works on macosx? 15:36:29 yes i speak spanish 15:36:43 oh 15:36:46 ok 15:36:53 Therefore you should understand monolithic without explaination, it's latin! 15:36:56 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:37:02 b4 [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:37:09 i understand monolitich 15:37:12 what monolithc means 15:37:20 it's also idiomatic 15:37:20 but i dont understand what you mean 15:37:32 monolithic in this sense means "all in one block" 15:37:41 rather than subdevided 15:37:41 your code is monolithic, never heard that expresion 15:37:51 ah ok , i get it 15:37:54 got it 15:38:01 And I mean that your code is one big block. Computing distances and computing states (like colors) should not be mixed with GUI specific stuff like opengl or gtk or whatever. 15:38:28 yes im a noobie, im gonna fix it 15:38:32 You should try to make it modular, small pieces that can work independently. 15:39:16 topo: that's why I extracted a "simulation", to deal only with the distances and color state, and show you that it doesn't compute the right color for some spheres. 15:39:41 With enough trace so you can see what's happening. 15:40:04 topo: now studly this second annotation, and come back with some better code, please. 15:40:11 s/studly/study/ 15:40:21 pjb 15:40:36 im trying the code you posted but it didnt work 15:40:49 Remove the prompts! 15:40:51 envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 15:41:12 Also, when copying from lisppaste, switch to the raw code view first. 15:41:42 what are the prompts? 15:42:08 A prompt is a string that is displayed by an interactive system to indicate that it expects you to enter something. 15:42:11 debugger invoked on a UNDEFINED-FUNCTION: The function DISTANCE is undefined. 15:42:12 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.166.137] has quit [] 15:42:24 ah ok 15:42:31 Oops I forgot to paste it. 15:42:49 i removed the prompt 15:42:55 but i need the distance function 15:43:39 nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 15:43:39 pjb annotated #69185 with "with distance" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69185#3 15:44:03 are there hash-tables n Scheme? 15:44:27 nicknull: yes SRFI-69 15:44:39 nicknull: best not ask scheme questions in #lisp though 15:44:58 -!- envi^laptop [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:44:59 (in future) 15:45:04 -!- nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 15:46:00 timor101 [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 15:46:35 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:46:46 matimago [n=user@193.153.40.42] has joined #lisp 15:46:48 roplo 15:47:12 -!- matimago is now known as matimago- 15:47:21 pjb 15:47:29 can you explain me what does you code does? 15:47:39 It does the same as your code. 15:47:47 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:48:07 nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 15:48:08 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 15:48:21 what does it means this sign ' ? 15:48:21 how can i get permission back to be in scheme? 15:48:31 i was kicked for using a bot 15:48:37 i wont again 15:48:48 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:49:25 You talk to the group operator. 15:49:38 -!- matimago- [n=user@193.153.40.42] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:49:39 nicknull: Don't talk about it here 15:49:44 nicknull: haha 15:49:56 topo: I suggest you read an introductory lisp book such as PCL for that information 15:50:06 ok 15:50:26 matimago- [n=user@126.Red-79-145-145.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:50:50 I suggest Structured Introduction to Computer Programming (SICP) available onine 15:50:55 im just trying to understand the pjbs code 15:51:10 -!- pjb [n=chatzill@191.Red-83-45-221.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:51:10 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 15:51:33 topo: ` is backquote, not to be confused with ' which is quote. 15:52:01 topo: backquote is like quote, but it allows insertion of non-literal values with comma. 15:52:23 ummm 15:52:34 (let ((x 42)) '(a x b)) --> (A X B) ; (let ((x 42)) `(a ,x b)) --> (A 42 B) 15:53:22 There's also ,@ to "splice" lists. (let ((xx (list 1 2 3))) `(a ,xx ,@xx b)) --> (A (1 2 3) 1 2 3 B) 15:53:28 what's the haskell influence 15:53:55 -!- matimago- is now known as pjb 15:54:12 Got a macrro (like -->) you would like to share? 15:54:22 oh 15:54:25 -!- Nshag [i=user@99.a2c-250-158.astra2connect.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:54:30 pnj 15:54:33 pbj 15:54:34 `Aszarsha [n=Miranda@69.171.128.176] has joined #lisp 15:54:45 can you explain me your code? 15:55:05 you are passing 1.1 and 20 as distance 15:55:06 ? 15:55:31 The distance function simulates computing the distance between spheres. 15:55:45 i know but which are the values? 15:55:51 It assumes that only spheres 0 and 1 are at 1.1 ; and all other spheres are at 20. 15:56:00 ah ok i got it 15:56:30 (which implies there's only 3 spheres, in 2D). 15:56:30 Nshag [i=user@99.a2c-250-158.astra2connect.com] has joined #lisp 15:56:38 yes 15:57:04 so whats wrong with the result? 15:57:25 Sphere 1 is green instead of yellow, but it is colliding with sphere 0. 15:58:42 XACH 15:58:55 This is because the distance between sphere 1 and sphere 2 is bigger than 1.4, andd sphere 2 is processed after sphere 0. 15:59:16 topo: as I said, the results depend on the order in which you process the spheres. 15:59:22 wol [n=wol@c-98-207-129-115.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:59:25 :( 15:59:27 mmmmmm 15:59:41 #lisp is better when people aren't talking to topo 16:00:17 vixey: times are slow. #lisp is better with topo than empty. 16:00:26 pjb: not true 16:00:30 well ok 16:00:33 : / 16:00:34 I will stay out of it 16:00:57 I didn't mean that as a crack on topo, but the idea that any chatter is better than no chatter. 16:01:35 I know, we should have moved to cl-gardener... 16:01:49 what does the gardener part mean? 16:01:50 or lispcafe I mean. 16:02:11 cl-garderner is a project trying to tend the CL garden. 16:02:20 Hm. 16:02:29 How about just answering the question and then shutting up. 16:02:31 the channel is rather quiet. 16:02:32 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:02:40 I just hate topo, and /ignore didn't work 16:02:52 : / 16:03:31 stupid newbies in general are not good but ones that go on about their drug abuse and insult channel regulars aren't much better 16:03:54 : / 16:04:04 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:04:07 No discussion is better than busy yet uninteresting discussion, as the former does not prevent the rise of interesting discussion. 16:04:25 anyone have preferences between fiveam and lift that they care to explain? 16:04:37 vixey im not using drugs anymore 16:05:34 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 16:05:52 i was in cuba making rehabilitation for 3 months 16:05:55 bbl 16:06:15 shut up 16:06:55 -!- kij` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:07:00 That's another good one: http://plan9.bell-labs.com/magic/man2html/1/emacs 16:07:23 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 16:08:25 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 16:08:59 Let me ask it a different way - anyone have any preferences on testing frameworks? 16:09:26 wol: There was some semi-recent survey regarding test suites. 16:09:54 wol: You could search for it. Personally, I often tend to use the simple rt, because it comes with sbcl. 16:10:16 yeah, http://aperiodic.net/phil/archives/Geekery/notes-on-lisp-testing-frameworks.html from early last year 16:10:19 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:10:35 dthomp [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has joined #lisp 16:11:52 I've used fiveam a little bit 16:13:25 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 16:13:44 The complaint in that survey about lift had been about memory usage and compile time. I was wondering, before I play it myself whether anyone else had seen the same problem. 16:16:05 -!- nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 16:16:39 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:19:18 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-68-238-164-124.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:38 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-91.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:21:39 wol: my preference is fiveam; if it becomes problematic, I use rt 16:22:48 topito annotated #69185 with "explanation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69185#4 16:26:46 -!- Wizard_ [n=wizard@89.20.107.102] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:28:48 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 16:28:51 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.96.127] has joined #lisp 16:29:17 Wizard_ [n=wizard@94.50.0.244] has joined #lisp 16:29:47 kij` [n=user@90.184.74.91] has joined #lisp 16:30:11 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-108.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 16:31:50 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-225b0a7595900270] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:32:46 kij`` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 16:36:11 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:37:53 -!- kij` [n=user@90.184.74.91] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:38:36 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 16:39:04 pbj you there? 16:39:11 pjb 16:39:27 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-074-029-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:41:32 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:41:58 clogged [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 16:42:26 which Lisp do you use? i tried Allegro but it had a licens ewhich expired 16:42:32 i want to use it with slime 16:42:37 i use sbcl 16:42:48 is sbcl free in both meanings of the word? 16:42:53 yes 16:43:37 Most of SBCL is in the public domain. Most of the rest is available under a derivative of the 3-clause BSD licence. 16:43:45 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:44:19 dthomp: i recommend stefil, but i'm biased. there's a blog about them here, though: http://aperiodic.net/phil/archives/Geekery/notes-on-lisp-testing-frameworks.html 16:44:27 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.96.127] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:44:27 -!- hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279440976.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:44:27 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:44:27 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:44:27 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:44:27 -!- enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:44:27 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:44:27 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 16:44:40 err, i mean that for wol 16:44:55 http://sbcl.sourceforge.net/platform-table.html 16:44:55 it says windows port is in progress 16:44:57 is it not working yet? 16:45:04 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.96.127] has joined #lisp 16:45:04 blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has joined #lisp 16:45:04 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 16:45:04 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:04 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 16:45:04 hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279440976.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:45:04 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:45:04 enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:45:25 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-074-029-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:46:17 clogged: it works, but not every feature works properly 16:47:56 -!- clogged [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:48:16 clogged [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 16:53:19 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-17-159.kosnet.ru] has quit ["."] 16:53:59 attila - there was a statement in the review "The only thing that could be clearer is the actual test that failed. You either have pore through the backtrace or wait for everything to finish and pore through the test result objects." I realize the review as over a year and half ago. Any comments from your side? 16:55:21 clogged, I used SBCL together with Cusp on Windows in May. 16:55:45 clogged, granted, it was for fairly simple things, so I probably didn't push it enough to notice. 16:56:16 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:56:39 attila: I also wouldn't mind hearing what you perceive as the strong points of stefil 16:57:03 wol: you can press 'v' in the debugger to jump to the source, or you can look at the restart (there are restarts for each test call) 16:58:20 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 16:58:43 -!- ehu` [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-027adfc6927ed91c] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:58:57 dthomp: maps directly to instrumented defun's so there's no need for learning some random abstractions. normal debugging, and repl evaluation with slime is seamless... 17:02:32 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8812f13adce7fd8d] has joined #lisp 17:03:52 -!- ttt-- [n=ubuntu@d515336D7.access.telenet.be] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:04:32 milos_ [n=mikici@92.36.150.62] has joined #lisp 17:08:49 urgh, how do i unbind a generic function 17:09:05 (unintern 'my-gen-fun) 17:09:18 or at least: (fmakunbound 'my-gen-fun) 17:09:59 oh, oops, i did try the latter but did it wrong 17:10:03 thanks :) 17:10:03 medic33 [n=phil@69.85.194.62] has joined #lisp 17:10:25 turbo24prg [n=turbo24p@mail.turbolent.com] has joined #lisp 17:12:06 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:12:26 -!- pjb [n=user@126.Red-79-145-145.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:12:45 pjb [n=user@126.Red-79-145-145.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:13 good nite 17:20:17 -!- topo [n=topo@200.37.161.41] has quit [] 17:20:54 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:22:10 dnolen [n=dnolen@70.107.147.221] has joined #lisp 17:28:20 Nathan_ [n=nathan@195.168.209.2] has joined #lisp 17:28:53 -!- dthomp [n=dat@nmd.sbx08736.mcminor.wayport.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:28:56 -!- Nathan_ [n=nathan@195.168.209.2] has left #lisp 17:29:52 matimago- [n=user@61.Red-81-39-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:10 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 17:32:44 im tyrong to download slime but i dont have cvs, i have git, darcs and svn though. can i download the repository with any of those? 17:33:16 -!- pjb [n=user@126.Red-79-145-145.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:34:08 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:17 doesn't viewcvs have a tarball option? 17:34:39 http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/root.tar.gz?root=slime&view=tar 17:36:39 -!- w00p]wakeup [n=wakeup@koln-4db4eaef.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Client Quit] 17:36:40 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 17:37:07 You don't have permission to access /cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/root.tar.gz on this server. 17:43:10 yep, viewcvs is dead 17:43:37 clogged: you could probably install a cvs client fairly easily 17:43:51 assuming, of course, that common-lisp.net's cvs server is up 17:45:58 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:47:21 hi, can someone tell me why (sb-thread:make-thread '(lambda () (format t "hello world"))) is not printing hello world? 17:47:36 krumholt: you're passing a list, not a function. 17:47:39 krumholt: are you trying in slime? 17:47:54 yes in slime 17:47:58 ah, didn't see that. that's a problem, too (: 17:48:13 the repl thread may not be inheriting *standard-output*. look in *inferior-lisp* 17:48:45 erm 17:48:58 the child thread may not be inheriting the repl as *standard-output*. 17:49:17 It generally does in SBCL, I find 17:49:20 ah ok it works in the inferior lisp buffer thx 17:50:05 ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has joined #lisp 17:50:08 it works elsewhere too, it's only the output that isn't redirected to the REPL 17:50:51 ah, and I spoke too soon; it doesn't get redirected on this machine 17:51:03 (I'm pretty certain it used to with an older sbcl/slime setup) 17:51:07 Archangel_13 [n=kevin@216-197-159-94.estv.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca] has joined #lisp 17:51:25 rsynnott: there's a slime variable to have swank globally redirect IO to the slime REPL. 17:51:36 i got that thanks. how can i tell my new thread to inherit *standard-ouput* ? 17:51:51 pkhuong: ah, what is it? 17:51:55 that sounds quite useful 17:52:18 mumble globally-redirect-io mumble 17:53:24 ah, swank::*globally-redirect-io* 17:53:31 good old fuzzy-completion 17:53:49 it might be too late by the time you have swank running. 17:53:49 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-074-029-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:53:51 something like (defvar *my-io* *standard-output*) and then (format *my-io* "hello world) would that do? 17:54:48 or (make-thread (let ((s-o *s-o*)) (lambda () (let ((*s-o* s-o)) ...)))) 17:54:52 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.3.235.73] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:55:31 ewh 17:56:19 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:59:02 Triqon [n=henri@hrk.yok.utu.fi] has joined #lisp 17:59:56 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@70.107.147.221] has quit [] 18:01:11 dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-147-221.ny325.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:01:33 -!- milos_ [n=mikici@92.36.150.62] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:11:43 matimago-- [n=user@57.Red-81-39-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:11:58 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:12:51 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["leaving"] 18:13:42 -!- clogged is now known as nicknull 18:13:54 -!- nicknull is now known as clogged 18:14:12 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084126.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:15:56 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-61.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:16:58 phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 18:18:11 what's the difference between deposit-field and dpb? 18:19:21 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:20:11 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 18:20:33 if i get : spwaning child-process, invalid argument. then what is the error? 18:20:39 my path to sbcl? 18:22:02 ah, I see, left vs. right justified 18:22:37 Steel Bank Common Lisp, can the spaces be a problem on windows? 18:22:58 is there a way to read a s-expression from a stream? 18:23:36 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-074-029-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:23:36 krumholt: READ 18:24:02 ah that is simple :) thanks 18:24:42 if i get : spwaning child-process, invalid argument. then what is the error? 18:24:50 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:26:47 clogged: you're trying to spawn child processes on windows? 18:27:02 not sure that windows sbcl supports that 18:27:44 im tryongn to use slime 18:27:56 -!- medic33 [n=phil@69.85.194.62] has left #lisp 18:28:11 oh, I see 18:28:24 spaces in your path might be an issue 18:28:47 so how do i do? i know program files doesn t always work so iwrite Progra~1 18:28:56 so Steel~1? 18:29:26 spaces might be an issue. for emacs, or for swank, or somewhere in between them 18:29:27 -!- matimago- [n=user@61.Red-81-39-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:29:34 clogged: use dir in cmd to see the 8.3 name 18:29:45 clogged: it might be best to install it in C:\sbcl or something 18:30:22 in general, using spaces in the path of something of unix descent in windows is asking for trouble 18:30:25 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 18:30:46 also, you may want to use slashes rather than back-slashes 18:31:00 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/tor/x-8dc1fe9aaa6fdde8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:31:28 -!- doxtor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:33:23 actually now whne i start sbcl.exe outside windows i get error cant find /usr/local/lib/sbcl//sbcl.core 18:33:29 how do i change that path? 18:34:44 *rsynnott* can't be doing with windows these days 18:34:48 far too much trouble :) 18:34:49 has windows environment variables? if so, try to set SBCL_HOME to the path where sbcl is installed 18:34:54 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-074-029-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:35:19 it does 18:35:44 hidden in the control panel thing somewhere 18:35:51 you can even build sbcl with an installer that'll do that itself, iirc 18:37:02 if you have the memory for it, running linux in vmware may be a more sensible approach 18:37:31 or on a bare metal 18:38:27 somehow, windows had ended up rather hostile to developers, IME 18:39:07 maybe it's sbcl's developers are hostile to windows? 18:39:41 yeah, that would make sense, if it weren't for the demonstrable effort that various people have put it 18:40:12 barring C++ and .NET, just about every language environment treats windows as a sort of second-class citizen 18:41:25 tell you what, stassats`: take the work of several people that already exists in the sbcl source code repository, and try to improve on it 18:41:47 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:41:55 rsynnott: Java's real achievement is in somehow making every platform seem like a second-class citizen equally! 18:42:02 indeed 18:42:10 if you find yourself unable to, perhaps you could apologise to those people who have spent a large amount of time making things work even as approximately as they currently do, for no visible reward 18:42:12 Krystof: it wasn't serious, i even have no windows 18:42:17 chandler: haha, no kidding 18:42:26 though even with java, once you get to using the FFI, it's far easier on un-windows than on windows 18:42:40 (these days, I'm much more hostile to Mac OS: it pretends to be a useful system, right up until the point that you try to use it) 18:42:57 having tried working on Windows myself, I think that this is more Windows' fault than the language environment developers) 18:43:10 Krystof: oh, it's not so bad 18:43:38 rsynnott: define "use" ? 18:44:13 rsynnott: i will change to linux eventually, everythign just seems much easier for programming. hw do i run lnux on vmware, i can run ubuntu or fedora on top of windows then? 18:44:16 schme [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:46:21 a nice and quite usable alternative to vmware would be coLinux 18:47:22 mjmcevoy [n=user@pool-71-115-116-167.sangtx.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:49:47 IME coLinux was rather slow. Maybe that changed by now. 18:50:48 clogged: You can just install the vm from a install CD(-image), the same way as you would install on real hardware. 18:51:08 it's quite slow at disk access, but OK in other respects 18:51:11 does sbcl work under colinux 18:51:13 ths: i have vmware 18:51:16 jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.196.118] has joined #lisp 18:51:19 rsynnott: yep 18:51:29 ths: or you can get a pre-made vmware image from ubuntu or ithers 18:51:32 *others 18:51:34 but should i downlaod an image from ubuntu? 18:51:48 http://isv-image.ubuntu.com/vmware/ 18:51:55 that's what I use at work 18:51:59 clogged: I talked about installing Linux into it. 18:52:14 though if colinux works it might be handier 18:52:57 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 18:52:58 rsynnott: that looks a bit moldy 18:53:15 which, the ubuntu images? 18:53:17 clogged: there is a large directory of prebuilt Linux operating systems for use with vmware player here: http://www.vmware.com/appliances/directory/cat/45 18:53:21 rsynnott: yeah. no Gutsy 18:53:40 yep; I really just need it to run sbcl 18:53:55 there's a third-party 8.x image around too 18:54:09 yeah, there's a bunch in the directory I linked to 18:54:57 at home I just use macos, where things are far easier :) 18:55:06 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-127-61.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has left #lisp 18:55:27 sbcl works acceptably, and ccl wonderfully 18:55:29 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:55:43 (though at the moment I'm a bit tied to sbcl's MOP impl.; must sort that out) 18:56:05 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 18:56:52 sorry to spam about vmware linux here but sinc eim tryin to install lisp :) 18:56:53 http://www.vmware.com/appliances/directory/1372 18:56:59 it says size 1MB, wtf? 18:57:32 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:57:49 http://www.vmware.com/appliances/directory/1362 18:59:07 clogged: try http://www.thoughtpolice.co.uk/vmware/#ubuntu8.04 18:59:10 this is one I've used in the past 18:59:56 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 19:00:21 chandler: ah, yep, ditto; it's quite good 19:00:30 I don't suppose there's a built-in ldb-like function for a bit-vector is there? 19:02:02 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:02:46 -!- matimago-- is now known as pjb 19:06:41 ericn [n=Babbel@adsl-240-137-55.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:06:57 -!- clogged [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:09:12 kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:09:55 jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:12:15 slyrus__: make a displaced array? :) 19:12:29 hey, that's not a bad idea 19:14:06 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [] 19:15:21 kzar pasted "Animal game" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69196 19:15:24 I've been writing this animal guessing game for something to do. The setf in the ask-question function isn't working as I want, the change it does is not saved to the *question* tree. Any ideas? 19:15:37 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.155.52] has quit ["Eric S. Raymond once killed a man using only his bare hands. And a gun, and three bullets."] 19:15:40 kzar: How many years have you been writing this one program? 19:16:25 vixey: you're not very nice, are you? 19:16:51 kpreid: no, make-array tells me the array types don't match 19:17:05 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:17:12 vixey: It's been a few now, almost there though 'eh 19:17:15 make them match! 19:17:41 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 19:18:06 slyrus__: you have to specify the element type to match 19:18:27 (kind of silly that it doesn't default to that... 19:18:29 ) 19:18:50 maybe in some implementation you can displace a ub11 array to a bit vector 19:19:06 kpreid: ah, but I wanted to treat the displaced array as another type (like ub8) 19:19:13 hah 19:19:31 slyrus__: oh. well, you should ask for that to be supported :) 19:19:41 slyrus__: (it's undefined behavior per clhs) 19:20:08 -!- ericn [n=Babbel@adsl-240-137-55.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Computer went to sleep"] 19:20:11 Xach: in the interest of reinventing wheels, I'm trying to roll my own lzw for retrospectiff 19:20:24 (but my understanding says that reinterpretation is probably entirely reasonable. otoh the displacement offset would be a bit interesting) 19:20:28 silenius_ [n=jl@dslb-088-074-029-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:20:49 slyrus__: ah 19:20:49 rsynnott: not sure, who is the one out of us two making snide remarks about other peoples personalities? (rhetorical question btw, I don't hear your reply) 19:21:41 Hmm think I have a candidate for /ignore 19:21:44 You kids stop arguing or so help me I will turn this channel around and go right back to #algol! 19:21:52 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-074-029-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:22:27 heheh 19:22:34 hehe 19:22:52 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:23:31 not many people in #algol 19:23:41 unsurprising, really 19:24:00 -!- mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-084-022.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 19:24:10 though I'd imagine #cobol and #fortran are far better populated 19:24:33 myrkraverk`` [n=johann@157-157-188-30.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 19:25:53 you'd imagine wrong, i'm the only one in #cobol 19:26:40 work [n=work@88.218.188.215] has joined #lisp 19:26:44 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:27:05 ah, odd 19:27:19 I was under the impression that therew were still millions of cobol programmers 19:27:27 maybe they don't know about the internet, of course :) 19:27:33 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 19:27:39 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@dsl081-166-030.sea1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:43 hi guys 19:30:48 hi 19:31:28 -!- work [n=work@88.218.188.215] has quit [] 19:32:04 -!- phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:42 kzar: you scared him :) 19:32:56 heh 19:33:36 kpreid: I've been looking at some sort of tree shaker (it's not so different than a wire protocol), and i'll have to work on sealing (without exploding, hah). The MOP seems to have an incredibly capacity to point to everything in the heap (: 19:33:41 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@85-220-125-230.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:43 So in my code there's a special variable declared with defvar, it's passed to a function which then passes part of the special variable to itself. I thought if I then set one of those parts to something else it would take effect in the special variable? 19:35:29 kzar, what structure is stored in the defvar? 19:36:06 jewel: It's a kind of tree made out of lists 19:36:09 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:36:20 pkhuong: for which environment? 19:36:20 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 19:36:53 rsynnott: sbcl. 19:37:09 kzar, if both variables point to the same thing, then the change will appear in both 19:37:18 ah, cool :) 19:37:26 that would be quite nice 19:37:32 phytovor [n=doxtor@unaffiliated/mitja] has joined #lisp 19:38:47 rsynnott: so far it looks like a bad hack that requires a not-quite-idiomatic programming style. 19:39:45 different from jsnell's? 19:40:29 Krystof: jsnell's style (not so different from the style used in Python) or jsnell's hack (link?)? 19:40:48 any source w/ jsnell's style? 19:40:51 (though in practice I generally find giant cores more an irritant than an actual problem) 19:41:16 uploading new cores from horrible old slow ADSL line can be irritating, though 19:41:46 jsnell's hack 19:42:03 http://jsnell.iki.fi/blog/archive/2005-07-06.html 19:42:30 thanks. 19:43:38 i am looking for a function to compare to symbols and i want the symbols to be equal if they have the same name but are not in the same package 19:43:43 yes, different. I'm using the primitive object definitions to basically write a copying gc (my use case is to send binary encoded data between processes). 19:43:51 Hm. 11Mb core. Not /very/ small. :) 19:43:53 krumholt: you could use symbol-name 19:44:08 pkhuong: that sounds fun 19:44:08 (they'll then be EQUAL) 19:44:18 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 19:44:35 rsynnott, so (equal (symbol-name a) (symbol-name b)) ? 19:44:46 yep 19:44:55 there may be a better way of doing it, though 19:44:56 clhs symbol-name 19:44:56 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_symb_2.htm 19:44:59 or string= 19:45:01 (why do you want to do it, anyway?) 19:45:22 krumholt: might want to quote the symbols? 19:45:23 krumholt: string= does exactly that 19:45:36 (what you asked for before, compare symbols by name only) 19:45:42 the joy of string designators (: 19:46:15 rsynnott, i am reading s-expression from a tcp stream and i want not all commands to be evaluatet just some 19:47:40 krumholt: sounds like a bad idea 19:47:48 why? 19:48:02 krumholt: Are you still using READ? 19:48:04 do you allow setf and symbol-function? (: 19:48:15 vixey, yes 19:48:19 antifuchs, no 19:48:33 krumholt: if someone sends an open paren but no close it can cause problems 19:49:50 vixey, i will solve those problems later for now i am considering that the sender is a nice person. i will have to get it working first 19:50:13 i know i cant get apples to apples with the question but really like to know, how long does it take to run ansi-tests on ABCL? 19:50:19 krumholt: So you're cutting corners in order to have something that looks like it's working? 19:50:26 krumholt: This is not programming 19:50:39 vixey, sure it is, iterative & explorative programming. 19:50:52 to V-ille, ehu or e271 19:50:58 vixey: plenty of RPC mechanisms assume at least some level of trust 19:51:15 vixey, it's not like i am building some commercial application. i am just trying to improve my lisp 19:51:28 (with facebook's thrift thing, for instance, you can trivially make the other side attempt to allocate a few hundred gigabytes) 19:51:30 dmiles_afk: On my computer, about 450 seconds 19:51:32 krumholt: Then write good software 19:51:49 oh, I forgot, she's ignoring me :) 19:52:11 V-ille, thanks i was getting 900seconds on my computer before and was annoying but now today i am getting i get "171.471 seconds real time" 19:52:23 (the effects on sbcl are particularly unpleasant; it just explodes) 19:52:39 V-ille, but its not anything tyo do with the code, its just my computer "today" somettimes it has good days 19:52:45 What's happened to comp.AI? Havent seen any communications since 23.09 19:52:51 dmiles_afk: different JVM or something? 19:53:11 Or higher load during the test run? 19:53:45 dmiles_afk: it depends a lot on the "energy savings" setting on my laptop 19:53:46 i can only guess higher bg load.. since ussually in another window i am running eclipse and also Sabma 19:54:00 erm Samba 19:54:20 only "high performance" gets me 400 seconds 19:54:42 ehu, allot of it is probly disk IO then for you? 19:55:13 ehu, good your laptop give you that much control though ;P 19:55:16 I don't actually think there's much disk io. 19:56:00 ah its probly the equivalent to Cool-n-Quite controller your CPU multiplier 19:56:06 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:56:21 laptops can be odd about that 19:56:28 Quite controller/Quiet controlling 19:56:38 especially laptops where the manufacturer was optimistic about the thermal envelope 19:57:00 I know this one runs at about 800MHz on battery vs. 2.5GHz when plugged in 19:57:16 and if I do anything which stresses the graphics card that can drop for heat reason 19:57:19 but at least i now know it should ussually be under 400 seconds 19:57:19 s 19:58:15 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:58:16 i getting 174 seconds due to this being an overclocked e8400 3.6ghz dual with 8gb ram 19:58:24 on linux 19:58:35 ericn [n=Babbel@adsl-240-137-55.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 19:58:45 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.248] has joined #lisp 19:59:39 the other day i was annoyed waiting 900-1500 seconds just to see what got broken.. i basicaiclly can do about 4 code changes between tests before i break it too badly 20:00:29 also, 32bit/64bit may well make a big difference for something like that 20:00:45 (fixnums can be bigger, and so on) 20:01:06 *ehu* is running T5200; 1Gb RAM low-budget laptop 20:01:20 oh. 1,6 Ghz 20:01:35 *rsynnott* is using a newish MBP 20:01:39 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 20:01:47 clean 1sec, rebuild classes (60 secs) ,(compile-system) 60sec, (load "doit.lsp") 900secs, SubLUnitTests, 10secs, start Cyc 60secs, hit a webpage 3 secs, 20:01:48 ridiculously expensive, but was worth it :) 20:02:03 my fixnum cache is 1GB ;P 20:02:38 -2^25 thru +2^25 20:03:02 one of the changes i am trying out to ABCL is some factories 20:03:37 making ABCL fixnums suclass SubLFixnums since CYC already maches ts own cache 20:03:44 makes 20:04:50 sctb [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:33 but now i am finding out might be able to run cyc from common lisp next week, wow i hope so, then i am much better off, and can use ABCL more as-is 20:06:14 actually, the only really annoying thing about ABCL is its eql (but not eq) numbers. 20:06:23 what's cyc? 20:06:38 (sorry for my ignorance) 20:06:44 well even if we factory some range in ABCL it'll never be high enough to == 20:06:53 how's ABCL's CLOS these days? 20:06:55 to totally trust == 20:07:25 dmiles_afk: well, maybe eq should be changed for numbers? 20:07:34 Cyc is one of the largest lisp programs .. a result of 30+ years of a webserver development to try to create AI 20:08:06 well 15 years on the webserver part ;P 20:08:22 at www.cyc.com 20:08:44 rsynnott: not much change yet. we're working out the kinks in the rest of the system. UNC support for pathname strings, fixes to numerous ANSI compliance tests 20:08:54 *ehu* checks cyc.com 20:09:14 right anyone using eq instead of eql will know the expected risks for eq instead of eql 20:09:44 generally they are going to use eql to be safe 20:09:48 well, with sbcl I was using get with numbers. 20:09:54 that was really working well. 20:10:00 until I came to ABCL. 20:10:09 no way to specify a different test... 20:10:28 I've got a little GUI app I want to write, and trying to decide on an impl 20:10:36 will probably go for ccl, in practice 20:10:51 yeah .. *max-fixnumn* or some variable will usually let a person know how safe/unsafe eq will be 20:11:38 (eq 1 1) could still be false, even with 1 < most-positive-fixnum. 20:12:02 on abcl, it is (false, that is) 20:12:25 what abcl announces the fixnum bit size might be how safe we declare eq should be ? 20:12:41 oh yeah that is pretty aukward 20:12:43 yes, use eq to comapre memory locations, qul for values 20:12:49 eql 20:13:04 -!- Jarvellis is now known as SarcasmJarv 20:13:41 younder: right. the only thing is that for many people a fixnum is something in-place, not located in a specific memory location. 20:14:00 i guess becasue what pkhuong says is why ansi-tests never can decide to test that kind of thing 20:14:02 hence to many, these should not have to be different 20:14:32 -!- SarcasmJarv is now known as Jarvellis 20:14:37 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 20:14:46 dmiles_afk: as far as I understand, the spec doesn't guarantee eq-ness of values, not even integers 20:14:53 (fixnums) 20:15:06 well you have eq, eql, equal and equalp 20:15:24 know the difference, they all have their use 20:15:51 i wonder what the right thing to do with get/put in ABCL 20:16:18 or anything suposedly unchagable 20:16:21 dmiles_afk: use symbols instead of numbers. one and the same symbol is guaranteed to be eq 20:16:53 ehu, i guess in sbcl you just was getting lucky for a bit 20:17:06 right. They are stored in the same memory location 20:18:17 Never compare numbers using eq even though it works for fixnum on some implementations. It is not portable 20:18:26 so .. one thing we gotta wonder is interning fixnumns in ABCL (using a factory) is going to improve performance or not .. for jvm to jvm the cost of a new Fixnum is cheap or not 20:18:48 younder: because of my learning CL on SBCL, I didn't know that until half a year ago. 20:20:29 I chose SBCL because it claimed the best compliance. What I didn't know then is that this kind of thing does not fall outside of 'compliance' 20:20:48 factory or not factory for fixnums ... i seen non factory fast wehn the newing is so fast and they only live thru one generation of GC.. if they ever live thru more than 3 then non factory gets slower 20:21:38 btw: that was years ago, right after 0.8, I think 20:21:52 slower becasue they are searched at least three time before going to tenure gen 20:22:21 BW^- [i=Miranda@94.191.155.171.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 20:22:33 dmiles_afk: do all jvms perform best when generating lots of garbage? 20:22:41 (short-lived data) 20:22:43 anyone has a basic example of how defmacro helps you develop better, for the unintroduced? 20:23:06 ehu, yeah i've seen cases that lots of small discarded objects is just as fast if not faster 20:23:52 BW^-: there's an introductory example at http://gigamonkeys.com/book/practical-a-simple-database.html 20:23:52 ehu, thats why no one can really complain or sell a factory 20:24:25 i meant something that's 6-7 lines long 20:24:43 ehu, but then again the factory caching them in a array on first use is still just as fast 20:24:47 dmiles_afk: ok. then the speed ofcourse also greatly depends on the instantiation of the objects themselves? 20:24:58 BW^-: you probably need a realistic-sized example to show macros actually being useful 20:25:09 BW^-: so the examples there are too simple for you? 20:25:24 um 20:25:26 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.104.164] has joined #lisp 20:25:40 ehu, yeah .. and then going over them again and again to decide if they are still ijn use 20:25:51 i just want a complete example of defmacro that shows how useful it is 20:25:59 like (defmacro (something a b) ... ) 20:26:08 (something something) - see how useful it is1 20:26:09 ! 20:26:17 BW^-: you didn't even look at that chapter did you? 20:26:26 ehu, but creation time is defiantely very important... so many jvms are super optimized to make them.. they just cant always optimise how GC will find and kill them 20:26:53 -!- blandest [n=blandest@softhouse.is.ew.ro] has quit ["Bye."] 20:26:59 dmiles_afk: would that apply to fixnums only, or to any object? 20:27:00 well right they are 3 lines in total but they benefit too much from lengthy explanation ;) 20:27:17 BW^-: no-one can explain usefullness of macros in 3 lines of code. 20:27:29 tvl [n=user@TSA-DESK.RES.CMU.EDU] has joined #lisp 20:27:31 but give it 7 lines of code and 10 lines of explanation? 20:27:37 -!- jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [] 20:27:41 ehu, to any objects.. every object has to go thru a slow tenuring phase 20:27:43 doubt it 20:27:58 dmiles_afk: right. creation is always optimized? 20:28:50 ehu, well i just am confident that most jvms do prety well at creating 20:29:32 but i am sure not all equal, and i bet creation is only as fast as it can be 20:29:37 wouldn't there be any very straightforward abstraction that benefits from defmacro.. 20:30:08 I like my smallish WITH-* macros, but I doubt they look very usefull to newcomers. 20:30:30 if the creation .. i.e. rnning the construtor code after alocating fields 20:30:53 again there is nothing in the CL spec that sais you have generational garbage collection. For instance GCL uses a Boem Weiser conservative garbage collector 20:30:56 kzar pasted "Why doesn't this work?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69204 20:31:14 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:31:18 no 'tenuring' 20:32:29 younder: right, but since I'm working on a lisp running inside the jvm, I get some things for free, but also some aspects get hidden from me. So, I'm now getting some details of those aspects from someone who studied behaviour of jvms more than I did. 20:32:54 this goes more to the performance of abcl itself than that of guarantees by the spec 20:34:23 ehu, somnething a friend of mine was explaining to me once.. (about even our factory storage of fixnums) is thay the arraybounds check in the jvm (to locate the cached fixnum) was probly the slowest part of the objects 20:34:29 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:34:56 which is funny, so the problem is .. too many pro-cons from either side 20:35:42 l pasted "simple macro example" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69207 20:35:44 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:06 the best case litterally is a getstatic to grab a cached fixnum 20:36:08 BW^-: there's a trivial example of one i wrote today 20:36:58 the best case litterally make a class that has a the maximum fieldsize and a big switchcase to grab the right static filed 20:37:02 locklace: aha? 20:37:29 BW^-: look at lisppaste 20:37:40 ehu: has a the maximum fieldsize and a big switchcase to grab the right static field, but make sure bytecode grabs the getstic the most smartly 20:38:44 like getInstance(int fxn) { switch (fxn) 0: return ONE; ... } 20:39:20 How good is the method's implementation in ABCL? 20:39:39 but making the bytecode i it can be smart and see a one or zero , ten etc,, and use getstatic 20:39:46 because I would so use methothod's rather than a typecase 20:41:09 younder: well i refering to what java code would be... and supsedly switch/case is pretty fast.. but good question if your fixnum is 1000 vs 1.. is it O(n) ? 20:42:30 That would be highly unusual 20:43:15 one thing i tried once in fixnums is to cache the prev and next.. for use of incr() and decr() on fixnums.. finds or creates the two fields Fixnum prev,next; 20:43:51 it was faster than new Fixnum(this.value+1); 20:43:52 Better to let the CPU cashe do that 20:45:01 but thats why my fixnum cache is 1GB 20:46:30 heh. ok. so, abcl better try to use unboxed int then. That doesn't require the creation of objects. 20:46:52 (and those *are* eq) 20:47:28 ehu, yeah if at all possible, its sorta the grail of most jvm implmented langauges 20:47:54 and others as well 20:48:03 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-212-27.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:48:08 even clojure missed it possibley.. i wonder 20:48:59 abcl has a bunch of primitive arg methods.. right now they box and call the boxed vberion ;P.. but technically it doesnt need to 20:50:23 like public void aset(int index, int n) throws ConditionThrowable { aset(index, new Fixnum(n)); } 20:50:44 -!- r0bby [n=wakawaka@guifications/user/r0bby] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:51:00 i think though alot of subclasses already overide this 20:51:42 oops i meant to paste on that boxes the index not the value 20:51:52 on/one 20:52:22 oh. the *index*; the value is certainly harder 20:53:41 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.248] has quit [] 20:53:42 just making the bytecode generator find the most proimitive signature possible is pretty hard to 20:55:13 would that be really hard? I mean it surely would only need to count the number of matching arguments without creating objects for them, right? 20:55:45 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:56:04 not that I completely grok the compiler yet, but I'm getting better. 20:56:06 right intially as an inchworm you might make a wrapper that presents all sorts of legal looking signatures. 20:56:32 -!- veritius [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 20:56:38 yeah it could be done.. its doable 20:56:42 kzar: foo has local scope in blah-test, and as such is not bah 20:58:10 but probly at first yo want to superclass LispObject with a buch of primitvie canditates and try to maker the compiler use those.. the superclass that you make of lisp objet.. just wraps them and does the right thing 20:58:48 kzar: if you pass a container instead of a direct variable, you could change it easily though (i.e. passing a cons, vector or list in which your value is set) 21:00:02 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0FB67.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:10 but yeah ehu, it seems like a good idea, probly at first just add print statements at the compiler that tells you when you would have wanted to avoid boxing 21:00:49 and maybe you can decide what could have been decidable 21:01:01 yes 21:01:12 *ehu* gets tired; sorry; need to leave 21:01:47 well cool, see you soon 21:01:59 seea 21:04:14 oh, groovy decided they could solve the problem post compiler with GJIT .. "groovy jit".. they rerun a bytecode transformer that detects and fixes avoidable (un)boxing 21:04:20 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.4] has joined #lisp 21:05:01 so they have a replacement table that sees certain things on bytecode and replaces it with better bytecode.. they get a 40% speedup on math 21:05:36 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4428F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:06:21 it looks for certain things they already know thye could fix in their compiler 21:06:46 (but would be too hard) 21:07:54 phadthai annotated #69204 with "foo is in blah-test scope" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69204#1 21:10:47 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 21:13:01 rockastop [n=user@r226169.res.Lehigh.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:14:11 phadthai: So the "dynamic-ness" is forgotton if the variable is just nil? 21:16:50 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:14 -!- rockastop [n=user@r226169.res.Lehigh.EDU] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:18:36 kzar: i.e. a reference to the cons is passed as value to your function rather than a nil value (which your function can change as it wants but then it of course only affects its local variable foo) 21:18:53 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C36E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:33 kzar: similarily you could (setf foo (cons t t)) and it also woudn't work 21:20:06 yet using that local reference to access the cons' car will work fine 21:20:32 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.96.127] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:20:38 if nil had been "" for an empty string, you also could have modified it via the reference using a vector destructive assignment of course 21:20:43 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47E7E.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:21:04 as a reference to said string would have been passed instead of nil 21:21:10 -!- ericn [n=Babbel@adsl-240-137-55.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Computer went to sleep"] 21:21:38 this wouldn't work with primitive values like an integer or nil 21:25:53 ericn [n=Babbel@adsl-240-137-55.msy.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 21:27:19 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:27:28 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 21:29:35 -!- silenius_ [n=jl@dslb-088-074-029-122.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:31:26 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 21:35:18 phadthai: I just tried changing nil for "" and eql for equal but it didn't help? 21:35:41 b 21:37:46 Sorry the b was a typo and there was no eql in that example. My real program is using a recursive function that goes through a tree. Eventually it might get to a nil in which case I want to set it to something. I could do the test to see if the next item is nil before the function calls itself but that would look a bit messy, guess that's the only way though? 21:38:20 It's wierd how if it's something like nil it doesn't work though, I still don't totaly understand that to be honest 21:38:36 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:39:16 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 21:46:12 rswarbrick [n=rupert@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust513.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 21:49:00 phadthai annotated #69204 with "Destructive op on string container" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69204#2 21:50:13 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-8812f13adce7fd8d] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:50:54 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.96.127] has joined #lisp 21:52:01 kzar: likewise with a tree/cons/list/vector reference you can destructively destroy/assign its contents 21:55:31 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@94.191.155.171.bredband.tre.se] has left #lisp 21:55:32 -!- Twilight777 is now known as gloaming 21:58:34 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 22:00:23 kwertii [n=kwertii@c-71-202-121-102.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:00:51 matimago- [n=user@101.Red-83-35-151.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:01:05 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:04:58 tayssir [n=user@xdsl-87-79-58-246.netcologne.de] has joined #lisp 22:06:26 -!- sctb [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:06:53 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Yay! I'm a Llama again!"] 22:17:02 Jordan_ [n=chatzill@69.169.139.178.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 22:17:39 -!- pjb [n=user@57.Red-81-39-22.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:18:02 matimago-- [n=user@43.Red-81-39-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:10 matimago` [n=user@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:24:27 -!- matimago-- [n=user@43.Red-81-39-234.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:28:45 jeez, why is there no (setf assoc)... 22:29:04 timor101: what would it do in the case of no match? 22:29:17 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@pool-70-107-147-221.ny325.east.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:29:23 timor101: because you probably want (setf (cdr assoc)) anyway. 22:29:48 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2EA71.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 22:29:48 pkhuong: i know, its just the extra typing :) 22:30:09 i always get it wrong on the first try 22:30:34 skv [n=sasha@sub26-151.member.dsl-only.net] has joined #lisp 22:30:38 -!- skv is now known as abend 22:30:39 (assoc ...) and (cdr (assoc ...)) definitely shouldn't be equivalent places. 22:31:39 timor101: you could also use rplacd 22:33:22 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.126.100] has joined #lisp 22:34:07 dnolen [n=dnolen@70.107.147.221] has joined #lisp 22:35:32 -!- matimago- [n=user@101.Red-83-35-151.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 22:36:51 -!- tvl [n=user@TSA-DESK.RES.CMU.EDU] has left #lisp 22:36:54 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@70.107.147.221] has quit [Client Quit] 22:38:50 photon2 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 22:38:54 dkcl` [n=dkcl@154.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 22:39:04 petere [n=peter@209-6-234-57.c3-0.sbo-ubr3.sbo.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 22:40:00 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-68-238-164-124.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has quit [] 22:40:03 -!- `Aszarsha [n=Miranda@69.171.128.176] has quit [] 22:43:28 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:45:27 hi, I've just decided to update slime after ignoring updates for a long, long time. Anyway, my brand-new CVS tree of slime doesn't contain a contribs directory, even though when I start slime it's trying to load contribs. Where does one find the contribs files nowdays? thanks 22:46:11 -!- abend_ [n=sasha@sub26-151.member.dsl-only.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:00 petere: my cvs slime has a directory called "contrib" which works fine 22:47:15 aack [n=user@s559195f7.adsl.wanadoo.nl] has joined #lisp 22:48:19 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:48:24 -!- photon2 is now known as photon 22:49:28 pjb [n=user@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 22:50:34 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 22:51:21 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:51:26 -!- dkcl` is now known as dkcl 22:52:34 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:53:55 -!- rswarbrick [n=rupert@cpc2-cove3-0-0-cust513.sol2.cable.ntl.com] has left #lisp 22:55:50 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.4] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 22:55:57 is it in the HyperSpec that Common Lisp implementations should have a compiler? 22:56:17 z0d: They don't have to have a compiler. 22:56:31 z0d: they only have to implement the minimal compilation. 22:56:48 z0d: that is, expand the macros. 22:56:53 it just says that there must be functions compile and compile-file and there's a few things that are specified about what that means 22:57:07 , thank you 22:57:47 *rvirding* must go, goodnight everyone 22:58:43 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 23:00:15 -!- kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 23:00:20 petere: did you update from a previous cvs checkout? did you forget the -dP options to cvs? 23:02:44 hefner: no, I deleted my slime source tree and re-checked it out. I just did that again and now I do see the contrib directory. Probably an indication that I need some sleep 23:05:13 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-75-55-213-1.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:05:15 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus_ 23:07:06 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:35 it's saturday night! let's see how fun flexichain is ^_^ 23:09:10 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.104.164] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:09:26 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47E19.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:10:37 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:10:40 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 23:10:44 xreyes [n=xreyes@175.84-48-162.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 23:12:51 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:13:24 hi, i'm fairly new to the world of lisp and was wondering if someone experienced has any opinions regarding opengl bindings on linux with sbcl they could share, there seem to be several options, also is it possible to get access to input devices such as a graphics tablet via clx? thank you 23:14:05 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student166-32.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 23:14:29 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:14:29 xreyes: you want to use cl-opengl, although you have several choices as to how you get a window to use it with (glut, sdl, etc) 23:14:48 -!- tayssir [n=user@xdsl-87-79-58-246.netcologne.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:15:39 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:16:13 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:17:31 glut is part of the cl-opengl package right, i don't need anything beyond that to experiment a bit and get my bearings with cl and graphics? 23:18:01 right 23:18:21 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:28 excellent, thank you very much 23:18:31 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:18:35 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 23:19:07 -!- gloaming [n=steve@c-76-113-7-71.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:19:35 as for a graphics tablet, I couldn't say. it's on my list of things to figure out - I'd expect that calling libXi through the ffi is the thing to do 23:21:33 ok, well i'll give that a go once i'm a bit more comfortable with cl, also getting a wii mote hooked up somehow would be fun 23:22:58 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:23:05 -!- mjmcevoy [n=user@pool-71-115-116-167.sangtx.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:23:15 kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 23:23:23 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4428F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:23:36 matimago- [n=user@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:25:19 and for FFIs I would recommend sticking to CFFI; simple, portable, Good(TM). 23:25:36 good enough, anyway. cffi wrappers are always kind gross. 23:25:47 compared to what? 23:26:21 some platonic ideal 23:26:25 also sbcl's native ffi 23:27:14 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 23:27:30 -!- pjb [n=user@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:27:30 -!- matimago- [n=user@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:28:19 guess how much data FORMAT (or just about anything that deals with streams) transitively points to in SBCL? Something like 24 MB :| 23:29:53 sbcl native ffi is nice, but I didn't miss much when I converted to CFFI, and also gained portability 23:30:42 awesome, portability. that means you get to debug pathnames on eight platforms, right? :) 23:31:21 what part of #P"C:/Progra~1/code" don't you understand? 23:31:28 dalton [n=id@201-68-160-68.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 23:31:33 :-P 23:31:54 pkhuong: i guess that explains the memory footprint of my minimal sbcl session 23:32:26 can i be a jerk and ask what clozure CL gives me over sbcl on Linux? 23:33:11 fasls with an extension that screws up your filename completion. it's awesome! 23:33:32 jauaor [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 23:33:57 I have the alpha win32 release right here. doesn't seem too fickle actually 23:34:28 ExtreTux [n=Angel@157.Red-88-9-236.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:35:54 *fusss* immensely enjoying Elephant. what a Good hack. 23:37:28 pjb [n=user@67.Red-81-37-36.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:58 selling england 23:38:02 by the pound 23:39:04 -!- timor101 [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:40:01 fusss: i just looked at clozure and now i have the same question, wonder if anyone's compared them anywhere 23:40:45 clozure seems like a mature mac app that's just coming out to play with the rest of the world 23:41:15 there is this, on the benchmark side: http://trac.clozure.com/openmcl/wiki/HowFastAreWe 23:42:45 there is this funny looking patch in the clozure darcs "#+ mac (click-p *mouse*) #- (values (click-p *mouse*))" hmmmm 23:43:03 #-mac that is 23:43:53 photon2 [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 23:44:51 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 23:45:36 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.126.100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:45:44 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:45:51 -!- photon2 is now known as photon 23:49:39 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:51:26 -!- photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:51:33 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:56:20 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:57:04 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:57:25 -!- ericn [n=Babbel@adsl-240-137-55.msy.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Computer went to sleep"] 23:57:35 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:59:53 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp