00:00:10 locklace, you might also be interested in iolib 00:00:12 cmucl and SBCL are the fastest implementations 00:00:13 zu22: try reading the documentation 00:00:22 pkhuong: ok 00:00:33 zu22: what distro are you using? 00:00:41 Pala-Wan, are they? 00:00:47 depends what for 00:00:57 Fare: ? 00:00:58 clisp has a mighty bignum implementation, for instance 00:01:31 I don't think that's been faster than sbcl for some time. 00:01:39 sbcl's compiler is really slow, though 00:01:58 Xach: by the way, which one do you prefer? 00:02:07 Pala-Wan: sbcl 00:02:11 :D 00:02:15 Xach: only twice slower than CCL's 00:02:23 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-213-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:03:58 there's just one thing sbcl lacks, descent builtin shebang support (I know there are workarrounds, I actually use one to make my scripts, but apache cgi doesn't handle them) 00:04:01 that would be a good GSoC project. 00:04:02 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:04:19 Pala-Wan: it already has 00:04:23 Pala-Wan: it just got builtin shebang support. 00:04:26 omg, really? 00:04:36 what version? 00:04:41 which* 00:04:43 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:04:45 erh... *Fare: that would be a good GSoC project. 00:05:07 Pala-Wan: 1.0.21.17 00:05:09 pkhuong, what would be? 00:05:10 Pala-Wan: HEAD. But since it's almost that time of the month, you won't have to wait long. 00:05:19 hey, I got my GSoC T-shirt. Yay 00:05:21 Fare: improving compilation speed. 00:05:46 Fare: i think "clisp has the fastest bignums" is a historical statement like "clisp's clos is incomplete and buggy" 00:05:48 dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:05:49 pkhuong: could you rephrase that sentence please? it just didn't make much sense to me 00:05:58 Pala-Wan, I'm satisfied with cl-launch, for that kind of things. 00:06:10 zu22: How is cmucl going crazy? 00:06:20 Aloha, everyone. 00:06:22 Pala-Wan: SBCL has a monthly release cycle. 00:06:28 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:06:32 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A25D3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 00:06:32 Xach: it just tells you how long I haven't stressed SBCL's bignum support 00:06:33 dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:40 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Client Quit] 00:06:46 dnolen [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:06:50 Xach: Doesn't boinkmarks still show clisp is faster in some areas? 00:06:58 pkhuong: and making compiler thread safe would be also great 00:06:58 when I wrote that fibonacci article, a few years ago, clisp still beat down SBCL on bignums. 00:07:06 rtoym: i think so, yeah. 00:07:15 stassats: it is thread safe ;) 00:07:16 Fare: I don't use cl-launch, but a mighty shell scrpit enclosed by #| and |# but since apache tries to load the interpreter in a shebang there's no way it can work, not even with some scripting in the userinit 00:07:37 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:07:40 pkhuong, btw, didn't you write something for serializing sbcl closures? 00:07:48 pkhuong: then, making it work in parallel 00:08:10 Pala-Wan: you could not use cgi, like most people who do web development in CL. 00:08:30 pkhuong: hmm, you mean using mod_lisp? 00:08:38 Pala-Wan, I don't understand your problem. If you want permanent apache connection, try mod_lisp or some such 00:09:11 if you mean cgi, you can use cl-launch plus a saved image 00:09:46 or a web server embedded in the lisp application, and apache as a reverse proxy for dynamic content. 00:09:58 Fare: yeah, I did my own workarround to use cgi without messing with cl-launch, the only thing is that I have to rely on a bash loader 00:10:29 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 00:10:47 if sbcl (the version I'm using) had builtin shebang support, apache would load it right away 00:10:52 anyway 00:10:56 Fare: yes, but there's a better (no weird macroexpansion trick) way, assuming a single shared image. Also, the code did some things at macroexpansion time that should happen at load time. 00:11:16 Pala-Wan, ECL can dump standalone images -- and soon so will SBCL 00:11:34 nice 00:11:43 great actually 00:11:49 Fare: SBCL has been able to dump executable cores for a while. 00:11:57 cmucl can too, but I've never really tried it. 00:12:02 actually, SBCL already can, if you promise to not call it with --load or --eval... 00:12:48 what's the mighty command then? 00:12:54 (for sbcl) 00:13:42 actually, it's --core that's more problematic 00:13:51 save-lisp-and-die ? 00:14:01 was just going to try that 00:14:09 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:14:19 but just you use sbcl 10.0.21.24 or later... 00:14:37 22 gigabytes consed 00:14:38 ow 00:16:12 cons more! 00:16:32 My, I don't regret that 1MHz 64KB machine I used to program on... 00:17:41 though a full-memory GC was certainly faster then than on a multi-gigabyte machine of today... 00:17:51 and 2.4 trillion cycles :P 00:18:18 happily, there isn't a tax on CPU cycles (yet) 00:18:35 (almost all system; the machine in question is a vmware thing and using its network interface makes it sad) 00:18:43 Fare: do you need to pass closures around? 00:18:43 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 00:19:07 pkhuong, not yet. But I was wondering about doing it with erlang-in-lisp. 00:19:19 you programmed a garbage-collected language on a 64KB machine?! 00:19:33 rsynnott, I didn't, but others did. 00:20:02 rsynnott, actually, the first time I got interested about GC, it was in a machine with 2.5KB of RAM free... 00:20:14 (5Knybbles, really) 00:20:23 the HP48C 00:20:49 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:21:25 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:22:47 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 00:24:00 Fare: if you can guarantee that all the functions will have been defined before saving a shared core, then it's easy. Otherwise, I think you're stuck with something similar to what I hacked out previously. 00:24:23 ok. 00:24:41 rsynnott: BASIC was garbage collected. lots of people programmed BASIC on machines with less than 64 KB. :) 00:24:58 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit ["hardware upgrade downtime"] 00:25:00 I think I'll stick with something like arnesi's call/cc for shipping mobile code around machines. 00:25:52 (what a marvel those old implementations seem today) 00:26:04 BASIC was garbage collected?! 00:26:06 hefner, only strings were garbage collected 00:26:19 I had the idea that the older ones never freed memory at all 00:26:22 and they don't have pointers 00:26:33 hmm, fair enough. 00:26:49 so no reference chains, no cycles, trivial mark&sweep. 00:27:38 -!- cipher [n=user@inertia.acm.cs.rpi.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:27:54 failing that, I have some ancient implementation of lisp on a disk for the atari 800. shame nobody was around to teach me how to use it as a child. 00:29:47 Fare: on x86-64, shipping SBCL machine code around is easy. 00:30:06 hefner: a lisp orphan? 00:31:20 Xach: narrowly escaping garbage collection! 00:31:26 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 00:32:10 splittist [n=splittis@125.214.249.195] has joined #lisp 00:32:11 morning 00:34:20 sneaking out of the nursery 00:34:39 already becoming a member of the old generations 00:37:58 heh. a guy liked my movie charts. so he downloaded lisp for windows and has installed vecto. "i'm not a programmer so any help you can provide in making charts like yours would be most appreciated" 00:38:16 *Xach* is impressed by gumption, intimidated by sheer volume of ground to cover 00:38:26 hi hefner :) 00:39:01 btw, there WILL be a Boston Lisp Meeting this month, just a different room. 00:39:13 ..waiting to be saved and to die. 00:39:18 hello, slava. 00:39:18 and we ARE looking for more speakers the next few months/years... 00:39:28 Fare: i can give a talk about factor if i'm ever in boston :) 00:39:40 slava, please please do! 00:39:42 that would keep with the "nothing about common lisp" theme 00:39:58 Xach, you want common lisp stuff? Come give a talk! 00:40:02 i know, i know. 00:40:06 so how was lisp50? 00:40:08 i got just enough energy to whine 00:40:20 Xach: give a meta-talk about the lack of common lisp talks 00:40:21 Fare: i really do want to give a talk 00:40:35 i want it to be about something useful to people 00:40:35 I mean, many people ask for more CL speakers, but no CL speaker steps forward. 00:40:51 i have to wait for a while so the memory of rich hickey's talk quality fades 00:40:59 whoever speaks next is going to look like a dork in comparison 00:41:06 was his talk really that good? 00:41:12 ths_ [n=ths@X4755.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:41:20 did anyone record it? 00:41:28 -!- ths [n=ths@X668e.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:41:39 slava: he faced a crowd of lisp and scheme hackers ready to challenge him about all his choices 00:41:46 slava: at the end he got two ovations 00:41:50 nice 00:42:01 it was scheduled for 90 minutes, went almost 180 00:42:02 i'm giving a talk at google on onday 00:42:04 monday* 00:42:04 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:46 nice. 00:42:59 should have got pg 00:43:12 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:43:18 would be interesting to see audience response 00:43:18 slava: are you going to work in some of your trademarked jabs at java? 00:43:27 hefner: probably not 00:43:33 those are reserved for IRC 00:43:34 that would make the google people unhappy 00:44:24 i don't usually troll much when giving talks 00:44:31 it's a mutual, joint-stock world, in all meridians. we cannibals must help these christians. 00:44:36 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:44:37 the trolling is for after when everyone goes to get beers 00:44:43 Rick Hickey on Clojure talk about nil/false/eos/'() ... okay .. let's just do it. cracked me up 00:45:09 http://clojure.blip.tv/ 00:45:16 that's the one! 00:47:24 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:50:52 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:48 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:56:23 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:02:35 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:03:22 jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.45.111] has joined #lisp 01:03:50 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:08 -!- eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:06:03 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0EA23.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:09:02 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 01:09:11 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:13:49 ugh. I tried to comment on "killerstorm"'s blog, but when I submitted it the blogger captcha always appears empty. blogger is such an incredibly broken piece of crap. for years, every single time I've tried to comment on a blogger blog, it's been difficult or impossible. 01:14:53 phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 01:18:47 Fare: do you know what the font is used in that presenteation? I want it!! 01:20:27 identifont. 01:20:29 chrisdone: you might have some luck asking rhickey in #clojure 01:21:00 hefner: I tried commenting a few times, too, and couldn't get past the captcha. 01:21:09 both good ideas, thanks 01:21:15 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:21:58 identifont is powered by lisp 01:22:41 chrisdone: which font? titles, or code? 01:22:54 -!- gz_ [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 01:23:58 Xach: the code font 01:25:20 Where can I find a listing of the sb-mop functions? 01:25:21 ahaas: I think only other blogger users are allowed (or at least able) to comment :) 01:25:24 wow, identifont is cool! 01:25:33 lucida sans typewriter 01:25:54 i take that back. 01:26:04 lucida with typewriter? 01:26:34 hefner: I like your blog, btw. I think we share mutual interests (beyond Lisp). 01:26:53 chrisdone: monaco 01:27:02 ahaas: thanks. hopefully I can devote more time to cool stuff and less toward complaining about linux in the future :) 01:27:16 whaat? and remove one of the mutual interests? 01:27:17 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.110.28] has joined #lisp 01:27:37 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:27:42 heh. 01:28:55 Xach: thanks! :-) 01:29:51 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 01:35:35 Draggor you can use slime inspector on package sb-mop 01:35:51 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 01:36:59 what a great racket. I could put up a blog on some random domain, skinned like blogger, and stick this "Use your google account to comment!" business on there to collect the passwords. 01:38:33 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 01:41:15 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 01:41:18 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:08 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:43:23 -!- kg4qxk is now known as bohanlon 01:46:02 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-114-216.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:46:40 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:48:49 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 01:49:54 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 01:57:15 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:58:14 -!- cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:59:17 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 02:02:02 Xach: got a URL? 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c'est tres bon pour le vin :P 04:17:23 en effet, oui! 04:18:06 j'esperes visiter, un jour! 04:18:30 Yeah. I take it you missed ELS 2008? 04:18:33 -!- Pala-Wan [n=tc-rucho@190.191.161.86] has quit ["leaving"] 04:18:35 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:18:46 beach: ouias, je suis un noveau du lisp :D 04:18:56 pauvre moi 04:18:56 ) 04:19:28 You'll learn. 04:19:32 merci 04:19:58 apprendre le lisp c'est encroyable! 04:20:47 un nouveau monde :) 04:21:15 zu22: I think we have to continue in English, or we will both get kicked. 04:21:20 Ah ok. 04:21:39 *beach* also needs to prepare today's lecture. 04:22:02 beach: i just started working my way through Paul Graham's "Common Lisp" and i'm installing sbcl as my lisp implementation. 04:22:11 I know the basic keys in emacs but better learn more! 04:22:28 zu22: It sounds like you have a plan. That's good! 04:22:54 "I always love it when a plan comes together!" - Murdock, The A-Team :) 04:23:38 i had a funny idea for a TV progam, The Lisp Team, a group of elite lisp hackers solve programmer's urgent problems. Think we can sell it to a TV network? 04:24:06 zu22: Given the crap they broadcast now, there would be a good chance, yes. 04:24:10 heh 04:25:07 zu22: You have been around here for 4 years now. How come you are still a newbie? 04:25:45 04.11.14:00:40:42 * zu22 is a lisp newbie 04:27:03 beach: i got sidetracked sadly 04:27:10 beach: had some health issues 04:27:21 but i'm doing much better now 04:27:39 zu22: Oh, sorry to hear about the health issues, and I am glad you are better now. 04:27:45 beach: thanks 04:28:39 beach: do you have a lisp homepage btw? 04:29:23 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:29:34 zu22: Not really. There is a bit of Lisp stuff (some of which is outdated) on my regular home page http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh 04:31:30 beach: ok, i want to make a lisp homepage eventually so i am collecting links 04:32:02 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092414]"] 04:32:08 That's a good idea. That way I can replace all my stuff with a single link to yours. 04:34:04 beach: yeah 04:34:44 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0EA23.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:06 i just got a vps so i am gonna set up a homepage soon, it is up now but not much there: http://www.jesujuva.org i will set up a subdomain so it will be eventually http://lisp.jesujuva.org 04:35:25 h4ns: hi 04:35:27 r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:35:32 Is lispnyc down? 04:39:39 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 04:42:35 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:43:44 evening 04:43:54 hi slyrus_ 04:45:19 beach: what should i call the new all-common-lisp TIFF library? 04:49:05 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-3-31.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:49:25 slyrus_: Hmm, splittist is the one that comes up with good names. 04:49:48 yeah, but you encouraged me to write the damn thing. 04:50:04 slyrus_: True. OK, let me think. 04:50:26 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-191-101.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit [] 04:50:41 Let's start by excluding CL-TIFF and trivial-tiff, OK? 04:50:53 deal 04:51:08 well, I have to change the name from cl-tiff, but that was always the idea :) 04:51:25 There could be a variation on Cliff possible. 04:51:48 the homonymish clitive just doesn't look NSFW-enough 04:52:05 I mean is too nsfw-ish 04:52:09 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47A14.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:52:22 lol 04:52:49 ACL-TIFF? 04:54:52 Plain-TIFF? 04:55:34 Nah, I would need some more time to come up with something. Or just wait for splittist to show up. 04:55:57 macl-tiff (meta all common lisp tiff) 04:56:31 slyrus_: harmony 04:57:02 As in the opposite of a tiff (a fight) and suggests the all-CL-nature. 04:58:05 Sort of along the lines of Gordon, the flash file generator. 04:58:19 hrm... 05:00:33 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:01:38 festiff? 05:01:53 abortiff? 05:03:09 putatiff? 05:03:47 I like Putatiff! 05:04:47 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:54 That way, hispanophones can always read it Puta-TIFF. 05:04:56 do I have a second? 05:05:24 cloutiff (common lisp on uber tiff) 05:05:28 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-91.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 05:05:32 emphasizes it has clout 05:05:39 I like Putatiff better. 05:06:05 puta is an insulting word in spanish though heh 05:06:17 right, that's what I mean. 05:06:20 ah 05:06:27 *gigamonk`* worked for Mother Jones when our domain was mojones.com 05:06:30 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E462C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:06:50 what does this library provide? 05:06:54 We got periodic emails saying, "Do you know what that means in Spanish?" 05:07:13 arbscht: reading, and one day, writing TIFF files 05:07:20 gigamonk`: heh 05:07:28 suggestiff? 05:07:36 in the vein of generic names, 'graffiti'? 05:07:38 i got it! rat-iff (reads all tiff) 05:07:41 Caitiff (: 05:07:43 there's a reverse tiff there 05:07:45 and you can have a rat with lambba symbol on its belly :) 05:08:05 and 3-3 symmetry 05:08:28 mascots are cool! 05:10:42 Can anyone get to lispnyc? 05:12:41 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-20-99.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 05:13:07 No, you can't get there from here, r2q2. 05:14:05 I mean is the website down for everyone? 05:14:33 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-14-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:14:33 Eh nevermind. 05:16:25 ok, y'all have been very helpful. found a name. 05:18:45 which one is it? 05:20:12 Is there a way to obtain the list of slot names available in a given class? 05:20:44 minion: tell enigmus about MOP 05:20:45 enigmus: direct your attention towards MOP: Meta Object Protocol(MOP) is a protocol for describing CLOS itself as an extensible CLOS program. http://www.cliki.net/MOP 05:21:08 beach: thanks 05:21:29 no problem 05:25:00 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-14-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:25:14 beach: retrospectiff 05:25:19 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-14-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:25:24 thrain][ [n=dpn@69.169.148.47.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 05:28:25 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:28:44 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:29:44 the only other google hits for retrospectiff are for a transylvanian film festival 05:30:14 retro implies looking to the past 05:30:20 but your library is all new i thought? :) 05:30:43 yes, but TIFF is pretty retro 05:32:37 slyrus_: ah, not bad at all. 05:32:48 thanks 05:33:10 slyrus_: I approve of the test consisting of submitting it to Google. 05:37:19 ah yeah 05:37:37 beach: you mean code.google.com ? 05:38:20 zu22: not really. I just meant, if you type it to Google, and you get too many hits for existing stuff, potential users will never find it. 05:38:46 zu22: for instance, "Cliff" all by itself would be a catastrophe in that respect. 05:42:15 clift, slightly less so 05:42:20 -!- dnolen_ [n=dnolen@user-387hsp5.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [] 05:42:37 55M vs. 1.9M 05:45:58 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:49:02 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:54:32 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:55:09 cgo [n=cgoellne@adsl-065-007-140-208.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 05:58:25 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.169.122] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:59:26 -!- cgo [n=cgoellne@adsl-065-007-140-208.sip.asm.bellsouth.net] has left #lisp 06:01:34 -!- r2q2 [n=user@c-71-228-37-14.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:06:57 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has 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06:38:17 hugo__ [n=hugo@89-180-245-150.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 06:38:53 -!- khisanth_ is now known as Khisanth 06:41:39 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-103-193.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 06:45:49 -!- yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:46:17 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:46:51 ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has joined #lisp 06:47:19 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:50:12 yango [n=yango@unaffiliated/yango] has joined #lisp 06:50:57 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 06:51:24 benny [n=benny@i577A10DC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 06:51:27 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-120-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:51:36 -!- zu22 [n=ubuntu@unaffiliated/zu22] has quit ["ircII EPIC4-2.2 -- Are we there yet?"] 06:52:19 morning. 06:52:44 good morning 06:53:20 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.2] has joined #lisp 06:54:11 -!- hugo_ [n=hugo@89.181.125.158] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:07 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:10:16 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-56.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:16:21 Good morning. 07:20:29 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5a80684711caa983] has joined #lisp 07:21:00 hello 07:27:03 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5a80684711caa983] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 07:28:31 haiwei [n=haiwei@221.218.16.52] has joined #lisp 07:29:09 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 07:33:16 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:37:29 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:44:13 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:45:05 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:45:39 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 07:47:15 -!- haiwei2 [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:51:05 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:54:38 *tic* reads the MVC considered harmful 07:56:39 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 07:59:32 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 08:00:15 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 08:01:40 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:03:04 mega1` [n=mega@pool-01dca.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:03:45 pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 08:04:33 -!- pinterface1 [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 08:05:09 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 08:05:18 -!- pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has left #lisp 08:14:24 kreuter: what's about by reader patches? You ran off time, too? 08:17:42 -!- marcoecc [i=me@gateway/tor/x-c86e191e44317231] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:20:32 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:21:15 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-323408242112e91a] has joined #lisp 08:21:53 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X4755.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:23:01 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.164.228] has joined #lisp 08:35:13 ths [n=ths@p549AD53F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:36:15 trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:37:13 hello. 08:37:43 *trebor_win* is looking forward to another happy lisp hacking day ;) 08:44:29 woho 08:45:02 haiwei1 [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 08:47:06 -!- srk [n=kramacha@122.166.8.140] has left #lisp 08:48:35 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@58.62.9.176] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:49:12 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.223.227] has joined #lisp 08:52:31 ' '((+ 1 1) ,(+ 1 1) ,,(+ 1 1)) gives: `((+ 1 1) ,(+ 1 1) ,2). How do I get a single "2" as the result of (+ 1 1) inside a ` ` ? 08:53:09 hmmm... my quotes are being changed. read backquotes everywhere. 08:53:47 kuwabara: paste.lisp.org please :) 08:55:08 kuwabara: What were you expecting to get from that? 08:58:02 kuwabara pasted "of commas inside backquotes" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69094 08:58:34 kuwabara: ,', 08:58:40 -!- derekv [n=derek@noogenesis.resnet.mtu.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:59:02 tcr: great ! thanks a lot. 09:01:33 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 09:03:38 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@221.218.16.52] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:05:36 Xpen [i=Unknown@213.129.54.27] has joined #lisp 09:08:53 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 09:11:58 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 09:23:15 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-131-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:23:44 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:48 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:25:07 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-130-138.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:31 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:31:58 -!- bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:31:59 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 09:33:03 hello 09:34:06 hi 09:34:16 bob_f [n=bob_f@mail.phgroup.com] has joined #lisp 09:38:06 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:40:13 i think my mail isn't getting through to sbcl-devel, would someone be able to report http://paste.lisp.org/display/69008 there? 09:40:19 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 09:41:03 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 09:43:19 locklace: doesn't happen for me on 1.0.21.33 09:44:37 ok, guess it got fixed between 1.0.21 release and now 09:46:50 -!- Xpen [i=Unknown@213.129.54.27] has quit [] 09:47:49 in 1.0.21.27 09:47:53 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 09:48:20 froydnj [n=froydnj@gateway.codesourcery.com] has joined #lisp 09:50:24 timor [n=icke@w0089.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 09:50:58 huangjs` [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has joined #lisp 09:51:42 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.164.228] has quit [] 09:53:00 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-120-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 09:56:22 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C209.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:02:00 -!- b4|hraban|zZz [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:07:55 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 10:08:19 mikezor [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 10:09:32 -!- echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:10:25 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:10:28 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.61.223.227] has quit [] 10:13:42 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-94.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:16:01 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:31 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit ["I am not a leaf on the wind, so you can't watch me soar."] 10:17:38 ehu: you are the usocket maintainer, right? in sbcl.lisp/handle-condition the typecase should be for serious-condition's, not just errors. i have this change here locally, but i can't remember why... but i remember that it was a big headache until i've finally found it. 10:19:25 *attila_lendvai* wishes there was an iolib backend for usocket 10:21:02 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:21:34 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:22:18 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 10:22:29 -!- younder [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:23:26 -!- boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:23:37 boyscared [n=bm3719@c-69-143-195-98.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:28:33 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:29:12 vmCodes [n=vmCodes@92.41.23.16.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has joined #lisp 10:31:11 isnt serve-event enough ? 10:31:50 i had numerous problems coming from sbcl's socket code, while iolib did not have problems 10:32:42 on the production system we have cludges like a with-timeout around a close call in cl-postgres to keep it rolling 10:32:55 what kind of problems 10:33:08 i remember sbcl recv consing a lot 10:33:20 so i just called the native function directly 10:33:40 i've also seen nil's in some buffer slot rendering a worker thread useless until killed 10:34:38 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB985D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 10:35:00 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 10:35:01 i'd like to see cl-postgres and drakma using iolib, and the easiest way is to add an iolib backend to usocket 10:35:10 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 10:36:33 soon we'll have to send out SOAP requests regularly and having iolib in the background would make me less nervous 10:37:06 schme [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 10:38:49 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 10:39:35 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 10:44:43 vasa [n=vasa@93.84.248.218] has joined #lisp 10:45:23 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0EA23.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:45:23 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 10:46:24 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0EA23.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:50:57 haiwei [n=haiwei@221.218.16.52] has joined #lisp 10:51:05 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-73-237.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 10:53:06 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-254-190-108.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:54:23 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:55:38 -!- vmCodes [n=vmCodes@92.41.23.16.sub.mbb.three.co.uk] has left #lisp 10:57:43 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2EE75.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:04:31 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:05:05 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 11:05:28 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@72.228.150.44] has joined #lisp 11:06:39 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 11:07:56 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 11:08:12 O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-191-101.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 11:08:15 dlowe [n=dlowe@c-76-118-155-153.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:09:36 -!- haiwei1 [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:12:19 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-191-101.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 11:13:56 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 11:15:38 haiwei1 [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 11:17:07 O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-191-101.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 11:18:14 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@221.218.16.52] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:21:12 haiwei [n=haiwei@221.218.16.52] has joined #lisp 11:24:54 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-73-237.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:30:59 jgracin [n=jgracin@89-172-38-65.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 11:35:19 sely [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:39:38 -!- haiwei1 [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:41:25 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:45:05 -!- timor [n=icke@w0089.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:51:06 good afternoon 11:53:00 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:54:10 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 11:55:50 demmeln [i=demmeln@atradig111.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 11:57:04 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:57:14 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-191-101.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 11:57:30 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 11:57:52 hey - where can i find examples for saving format output in a string. i need a correct fill-pointer... i think 11:58:21 kij: you can use with-output-to-string 11:58:29 clhs with-output-to-string 11:58:29 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm 12:07:01 kij: or you could use nil as the stream argument? 12:07:34 segv_: Provided it's a single call to format. 12:07:50 right. 12:08:54 well - its multiple, but i guess i need to read more stuff. the clhs example fails on me. 12:08:58 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 12:09:36 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:52 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 12:10:21 H4ns2 [n=Hans@p57BB982B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:11:20 kij: (with-output-to-string (stream) (format stream "hello: ~a" 234) (format stream "there: ~a" 345)) 12:11:20 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@10.pool85-49-183.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:11:32 (untested) 12:11:34 kij pasted "HyperSpec/Body/m_w_out_.htm failure" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69104 12:11:45 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:12:24 kij: remove fstr 12:13:32 Does anyone know a good lisp benchmark library (package)? 12:13:57 tomoyuki28jp: for which lisp? (profiling is by nature implementation specific) 12:14:08 beach: nice thanks! its ok to put a loop inside with-output-to-string ? 12:14:17 kij: sure 12:14:20 segv_: I mainly use SBCL. 12:14:37 i like sb-sprof 12:14:39 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 12:14:50 http://www.sbcl.org/manual/Statistical-Profiler.html 12:14:59 segv_: that might not be what he is asking for, though. 12:16:54 beach: Oh really? What I need is I want to take benchmark of my scripts to see which way works fast or things like that. 12:17:04 beach: like what? i just assume benchmarking tools and profiling tools are the same, no? 12:17:16 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB985D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:17:18 -!- H4ns2 is now known as H4ns 12:17:40 segv_: I interpreted it as a test suite for comparing Lisp system, like the Gabriel benchmarks, for instance. 12:17:58 segv_: seems you were right, though. 12:18:08 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 12:18:22 ah, that's probably a better interpretation of the word 'benchmark' though. 12:20:01 segv_: beach: Thanks for the info! 12:20:19 tomoyuki28jp: ttp://sbcl.boinkor.net/bench/ ? 12:22:36 kij: I want take benchmark of my scripts. Thanks though. 12:24:53 maybe cl:time is all you need 12:25:19 pjb [n=chatzill@81.202.44.242.dyn.user.ono.com] has joined #lisp 12:25:20 athos_ [n=philipp@p54B86804.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:26:55 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 12:27:10 -!- vasa [n=vasa@93.84.248.218] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 12:28:30 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@10.pool85-49-183.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 12:28:47 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 12:30:07 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 12:32:06 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 12:33:35 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:34:13 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:35:45 segv_: Could you tell me a URL of cl:time? I could not find out one. 12:35:57 clhs time 12:35:57 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_time.htm 12:36:01 tomoyuki28jp: it's a standard common lisp function 12:36:06 what specbot said. 12:36:53 We could register the cl scheme cl:time would be an URI. 12:37:18 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:38:37 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:38:43 -!- hugo__ [n=hugo@89-180-245-150.net.novis.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:39:31 segv_: Oh, yeah. The time function is enough for my purpose. Thanks a lot! 12:39:54 I mean good enough. 12:41:08 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 12:43:57 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:43:59 -!- pjb [n=chatzill@81.202.44.242.dyn.user.ono.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:45:29 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:45:40 By the way, cl doesn't have a function to add another value in the end of a list, right? I think the ordinary way to do it is like (progn (push "add" lst) (reverse lst)). Is there a faster (or better way) to do it? 12:46:16 there is append 12:46:17 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 12:46:27 but usually you don't want to add items to the end of the list 12:46:59 queues are pretty common structures. :p 12:47:00 tomoyuki28jp: if you want to append to the end of a list, consider using a different data structure 12:47:15 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B858F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:47:23 that's the nature of lists, adding to the head is much cheaper 12:47:37 H4ns: like a hash table? 12:47:50 tomoyuki28jp: like anything that is more suitable to your application 12:47:51 tomoyuki28jp: or a list with a tail pointer. 12:47:52 depends on yourproblem 12:48:01 aka a queue 12:48:09 or an adjustable vector 12:48:23 or something from flexi-chain 12:48:41 or a set 12:49:24 it's possible this is why lisp is considered hard :p 12:49:50 dlowe: this problem exists in every language. why would it be a lisp problem? 12:49:56 I see. I think I got the idea. Thanks for your advice, everyone. 12:49:56 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:51:10 segv_: in the current popular languages you're given an adjustable array, a structure/class, and a hash, and no more 12:51:34 that's a good thing? 12:51:58 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@10.pool85-49-183.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:52:06 segv_: I'm not saying that's a good thing. I'm saying the expectation is interface simplicity, not freedom to make engineering tradeoffs 12:52:21 which can't really be understood that well without some CS backing 12:52:24 ah. too right. 12:53:34 heh, the "equal distance" advantage! 12:53:38 what lisp adds to that list? lists? 12:55:18 CL has non-adjustable arrays, hash tables with eql, equal, and equalp tests, lists, conses, plists, alists, structures AND CLOS classes, vectors, bitvectors 12:55:30 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 12:55:45 each with their own performance/utility profile 12:56:13 and tons of other things if you want to load cl-containers 12:56:27 working with them involves writing things that look like (because they are) function calls 12:56:47 an advantage of non-built-in data structures is that working with them also looks like function calls, so they don't seem too much like second-class citizens. 12:57:14 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 12:57:25 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:57:43 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:57:53 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@89-172-38-65.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:58:13 example of rigidity is python where you get a hash table along with basically everything, whether you need it or not 12:58:17 timor [n=icke@w0824.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 12:58:28 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 12:59:04 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@221.218.16.52] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:59:07 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:00:13 hi. i have a clim question. Is there an easy way to define a command with a gesture that only works in a certain pane, but not others? 13:00:49 The problem is, that my gesture is specialized on the presentation type "t" so it works for every presentation 13:01:52 you should be able to test the pane in the :tester of a presentation translator 13:02:30 (except they name the arg "window") 13:02:49 like (eql pane (find-frame-pane blub...)) 13:03:02 certainly 13:03:35 thanks 13:03:44 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:04:22 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.49.193] has joined #lisp 13:04:24 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:04:53 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:17 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 13:07:21 I fail to see how to do the equivalent of a gdb breakpoint from emacs/slime/sbcl. I want to be able to step from that point on. BREAK kills the current frame (event slime-step exits from that frame), ERROR goes even further (the unreachable code is deleted), INVOKE-DEBUGGER requires an obect (a CONDITION) I don't have. 13:10:26 kuwabara: I never figured out how to use the stepper in sbcl, so I don't use that to debug stuff. i use tracing, usually, and sometimes i break and inspect locals. 13:11:43 and then there's good old printing 13:12:12 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:12:15 ironic, considering that the first debugger with single-step was a lisp debugger 13:12:28 Xach: ok. Note, however, that the stepper works fine as soon as the frame containing the BREAK has exited: I can trace the code of the next frames 13:12:51 kuwabara: maybe there's a debug level that can be used to make it more useful 13:13:24 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 13:14:08 hefner: hm... so how to i make sure the pane is an argument to the tester? 13:14:09 how do you do tracing? 13:14:18 locklace: (trace function-name) 13:14:26 or C-c C-t on a symbol, iirc 13:14:37 cool 13:16:15 hefner: ah thats what you said. the arg is indeed window... complete list is: (object presentation context-type frame event window x y) 13:18:24 lol. I found it! In (progn (break)), BREAK kills the progn frame, and slime-step moves into the next frame, in the step mode. 13:20:33 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:54 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:22:33 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:22:46 hefner: is input context possibly a way to go? 13:24:10 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 13:26:05 besiria [n=user@ppp083212086160.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 13:26:28 -!- demmeln [i=demmeln@atradig111.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:27:12 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.49.193] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:28:13 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 13:30:39 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:32:22 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:33:22 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.52.228] has joined #lisp 13:33:48 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:34:10 http://forum.codecall.net/general-programming/11238-best-language-database-development.html is one of the weirder things i've found in my daily google lisp search. 13:34:57 mostly due to 1. only knows common lisp for database work, yet 2. vetoed by someone else because only a compiled language is suitable 13:34:59 Hah, yeah. 13:38:29 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 13:38:43 Xach: how do you find these things? 13:38:49 kreuter: google blog search 13:40:28 you may have too much time on your hands ;) 13:40:50 it's my version of reading the news in the morning. 13:41:07 yeah, fair enough 13:41:40 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 13:42:54 sigh. I'm getting reacquainted with the edit-compile-wait-wait-wait-test cycle :( 13:43:12 that waiting could be spent googling for lisp! 13:43:21 heh 13:43:37 compile+test is 3hoursish, i think 13:43:39 ./build-gogi2-sdk.sh --qa x86_401_323 # doze off for 15 minutes... 13:44:16 though i guess that depends how many libraries have been touched recently 13:45:41 -!- huangjs` [n=user@watchdog.msi.co.jp] has left #lisp 13:46:01 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 13:46:58 you could read my code and make sensible suggestions in that time 13:47:28 disumu [n=disumu@p57A2628B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 13:47:38 indeed! I'm actually hoping to carve out a couple hours for that this afternoon 13:47:51 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc60.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 13:48:06 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:48:29 btw, your hmm chord progession aside the other day was interesting. I'd been thinking more int terms of energy functions. 13:48:48 you said there was some interest in your group along those lines. Anything concrete? 13:49:09 neurogeek_ [n=neurogee@201.208.73.206] has joined #lisp 13:51:29 (well, `indeed' applies to reading, not necc. sensible suggestions) 13:51:30 madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has joined #lisp 13:52:18 can I define that a certain argument must be a list of integers? (declare (type foo list)) ; but what should foo be? 13:52:19 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:52:32 madnificent: not really. 13:53:09 you can assert it easily enough though, if that's what you actually want 13:53:12 Xach: is there something standard that lispers do to make the compiler understand it? Or is it generally seen as useless (since the list itself may be slow too) 13:53:17 I can't seem to find an elegant solution to the following macro problem: a mapcar of a macro inside a macro 13:53:40 like say you have a macro my-eval and inside it you want to have the effect of (mapcar #'my-eval args) 13:53:43 yvdriess: macros aren't funcallable (macro-functions are, but that's different). 13:53:47 you can't map a macro 13:53:50 I know 13:53:58 salex: no, it would only be for optimisation 13:53:59 yvdriess: just encase it in a lambda form 13:54:00 but all my solutions so far are ugly and elaborate 13:54:10 dlowe: the macro def is not known when I put it in a macro 13:54:18 why is my-eval a macro? EVAL is a regular function. 13:54:24 madnificent: what's your ultimate goal? speed things up? 13:54:34 so #'(lambda (arg) (my-eval arg)) will trigger an undefined my-eval function 13:54:35 madnificent: should be enough to declare it where you use it then 13:54:38 yvdriess: separate the macro into a function that generates the code, and a macro that calls the function 13:54:41 (i.e. (the integer ...) 13:54:48 yvdriess: then map with the function 13:54:48 kreuter: it's just an example of a name .. 13:54:54 ok 13:55:13 madnificent: if you're using fixnums, they'll be embedded in the car anyway. I'm not sure how you would speed that up 13:55:24 yeah, won't make any difference there 13:55:26 Xach: yes... I'm trying to do that part 'right', so I wanted to know :) If it ends up to be utterly slow at the end, I'll try to redo some other things 13:55:30 dlowe: yeah, so you have a large labels of the former macro body and at the end of the macro you call that labels function 13:55:32 dlowe: nice :) 13:55:36 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.52.228] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:55:39 (or flet) 13:55:44 madnificent: smells like premature opt. to me.... 13:55:44 salex: fair, thanks 13:56:17 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.129.196] has joined #lisp 13:56:18 salex: well, declaring types is not bad in any case. The code-base that is here now will probably stay 13:56:19 I'm trying to make an example for educational purpose, not practical :) 13:56:39 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:57:22 madnificent: declaring them or checking them. if your compiler is a declarations-are-asserstions sort, taht gets muddied 13:57:36 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@152.pool85-54-94.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 13:57:57 salex: sbcl/clisp, what would they do? 13:58:08 madnificent: fwiw, using check-type on sbcl will also pin the type for optimizations 13:58:34 which would make the intent clearer 13:59:19 dlowe: I read about that :) quite cool 14:01:12 blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 14:02:08 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.6] has joined #lisp 14:04:20 -!- madnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:05:24 siginfo_t 14:05:28 oops 14:07:15 blasphemer! 14:07:32 h? 14:07:40 *kreuter* fails at typing today. 14:07:41 next you'll accidentally type :wq 14:07:56 ! 14:08:34 dlowe: in my emacs, wq is bound to the string "Stop using vi!" 14:08:36 damn, I can't trace (macro-function foo) :P 14:09:39 *dlowe* has less and vi aliased to emacsclient in *shell* 14:09:44 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:10:39 yvdriess: all these difficulties may be telling you something 14:11:03 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:12:00 yvdriess: why aren't you using *macroexpand-hook* to trace macro expansion? 14:12:01 yvdriess: I don't know why there is no trace on macro-function. It seems to be exactly the same thing to me (redefine the function, print its input, call the function, print its output) 14:12:15 chandler: thanks that's what I wanted to know 14:12:40 salex: it's all very educational I assure you :) 14:12:54 "ooh what about this" 14:14:13 nurv101 [n=askmefor@cidhcp124.ist.utl.pt] has joined #lisp 14:14:53 milanj [n=milan@77.46.169.122] has joined #lisp 14:20:14 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:25:44 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 14:26:04 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212086160.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:26:16 Soulman__ [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 14:27:01 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-103-193.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:32:44 huyslogic [n=Huy@192.206.112.168] has joined #lisp 14:33:30 malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb9813.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 14:33:48 -!- neurogeek_ is now known as neurogeek|m 14:36:32 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 14:36:55 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:37:19 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:38:26 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc60.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 14:40:06 gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-179-46-156.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 14:41:01 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit ["time to go"] 14:41:42 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 14:42:40 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 14:42:43 kij [n=user@0910ds2-vbr.0.fullrate.dk] has joined #lisp 14:44:12 -!- Soulman [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:46:19 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:47:30 -!- huangjs [n=user@p4121-ipbf4108marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has left #lisp 14:48:36 Hi lispers, Do you know any active or recent small free software project written in Lisp 14:48:39 where help are welcome? 14:48:46 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@p54B86804.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:49:50 davazp: i welcome help! 14:50:07 kij` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 14:50:07 davazp: i would like to know what is required to support Amazon DevPay in ZS3 14:50:14 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:50:37 oh, i see you are already looking at my stuff 14:51:06 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:51:24 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:52:07 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 14:52:52 davazp: what kind of help were you thinking of providing? 14:54:21 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc60.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 14:55:36 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-56.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:56:21 Xach: I would like play with some small Lisp project in order to practice 14:56:36 also, i would like to add dynamic huffman compression to salza2 14:56:51 davazp: there are a lot of small lisp projects out there. 14:57:22 also it would be great if someone is playing with it :) 14:57:48 what kind of playing? 14:57:57 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:59:38 Xach: I'd like to use the lzw code from skippy for decoding compressed TIFFs 14:59:42 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:00:33 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 15:00:44 slyrus_: go for it! i hope it's not too specialized for gif's quirks for some value in re-use 15:01:22 tiff compression is a mess, iirc 15:01:47 Xach: developing for fun, hacking I mean.. sorry if I cannot explain it in english well 15:02:49 salex: lzw is dead simple to decode, though. 15:03:15 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:03:17 indeed. but a lot of tiffs don't use it 15:03:26 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.129.196] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:03:45 what else do they use for compression? 15:03:51 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:06 depends on the data type 15:04:19 lzw was only ever optional in the standard, iirc 15:04:25 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.161.202] has joined #lisp 15:04:28 (probably because of the patents) 15:04:55 there is a run length thing, and CCTIV or whatever for bitonal (tif was used for a lot of fax stuff) 15:05:17 ah yes. i actually wanted to do a fax processing thing for something-or-other once. 15:05:26 CTVCBC 15:05:56 so it has 3-4 variants for that stuff, and it's own `packbits' rle implementation 15:06:11 which means, iirc, you can't lzw grayscale tiffs conformantly 15:06:19 allso some huffman thing 15:06:35 and an embedded jpeg that was never specified very well and later dropped iirc 15:06:36 -!- kij [n=user@0910ds2-vbr.0.fullrate.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:06:48 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:49 old file formats live forever :) 15:08:06 tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.163.26] has joined #lisp 15:08:22 slyrus's recent GIF that poked a skippy flaw had an embedded ICC RGB profile 15:08:24 anyway, lzw is an extension only 15:08:29 who embeds a profile in a GIF?! 15:08:36 slyrus ;) 15:08:51 so if you already know you have lzw-based tiffs, that'll be easy enough 15:09:22 slyrus_: btw, somewhere I have a very general tiff tag reader, if you need such a thing 15:09:30 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 15:09:51 Xach: iirc, there are about 6 ways to do bilevel in tiff 15:10:24 ehu` [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-027adfc6927ed91c] has joined #lisp 15:10:31 salex: i was a little surprised to learn that the Exif standard is basically a little tiff embedded in a jpeg. 15:10:36 also, lzw was only added to tiff in version 5 i think, so loads of stuff won't touch it 15:10:51 salex: I wrote my own, but perhaps yours is cleaner. You can take a look at my stuff and see if yours is worth dropping in to replace it :) 15:10:53 Xach: yeah, lots of things use the tiff tag format, as it's pretty flexible 15:10:57 mostly re-using the tag structure 15:11:02 Xach: right 15:11:14 and including the endian choice 15:11:22 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 15:11:23 don't want to waste any cycles! 15:11:26 i wrote a pretty generic tag reader for that reason, so you could plug it into other stuff 15:11:39 if you needed an exif reader or whatever 15:11:49 like...http://xach.com/lisp/zpb-exif/ ? 15:11:52 *Xach* giggles 15:11:53 (I wrote it for a tiff-like file, not `proper' tiff) 15:12:01 yeah :) 15:12:19 i haven't looked at that code for a while 15:12:30 *Xach* hasn't actually used zpb-exif like he hoped he would 15:13:17 that is, at all. 15:13:22 how did you hope to use it? 15:13:55 salex: i used to pull pictures off my digital camera onto my linux box into big honking directories, and i thought i could manage them a little easier with some lisp programming. 15:14:04 then i just started using iphoto on the laptop all the time. 15:14:11 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [] 15:14:35 zpb-exif was going to help me rename and rotate images at least. 15:14:48 you could probably use it to rip off apple's event clustering idea 15:15:03 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-45-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:15:11 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 15:15:30 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 15:16:12 it wasn't a complete waste of time, i guess someone is using it in mac lispworks to demonstrate a filemaker plugin of some sort 15:16:29 -!- patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:17:11 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:17:23 I've used zpb-exif for that! 15:17:34 oh, so it was you? 15:17:49 you're the one user! it's nice to meet you! 15:17:55 not in mac lispworks, though 15:18:14 just for my own personal image gallery utility, like you described 15:18:51 I think I may have stopped using it, though, b/c a particular camera wasn't setting the exif data correctly. 15:18:56 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.4.161.202] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:19:08 sweet! 2 users 15:19:12 http://jensteich.de/exif-plugin/ is the other guy 15:19:20 ahaas: cameras are pretty bad that way, i think 15:19:45 there's a new standard that requires a full-blown XML parser to do useful things with it 15:19:56 now that i'm sold on cxml i might look at it. someday. 15:20:04 Yeah, I wanted to add comments to the pictures, too, so it just became easier to go ahead and add a rotation option. 15:20:12 that's not in the raw files though, iirc 15:20:25 so less interesting to me 15:20:27 I think I still use zpb-exif to get the dates. 15:20:58 managing large amounts of photos is a pita; i just use lightroom and gave up on home-rolled tools when I went all raw 15:21:02 or 99% raw 15:21:04 ahaas: i actually have 93% of an exif rewriter. the intent was to be able to update and re-save the exif file to reflect the new rotation. i didn't finish it, though. 15:21:16 That's neat. 15:21:51 salex: it is indeed a pita 15:22:08 i've been happy enough with iphoto to not care about hacking away on other stuff. 15:22:23 patmatch [n=wmbot@dsl093-216-036.aus1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 15:23:37 iphoto has some nasty habits too (duplication). I thought about writing something but it looked a huge effort before even getting into handling raw's sensibly. 15:23:58 and i've got a couple hundred Gb of photos to manage... 15:24:20 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-179-46-156.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:25:00 I'm hoping to work on a game using stop-motion/time-lapse someday, where photo automation would really apply. 15:25:39 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:25:43 nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 15:26:57 i think iphoto is pretty decent if you don't have those issues, and don't do much manipulation though 15:27:02 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:28:23 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 15:28:31 my workflow is: take a bunch of pictures, review them and pick out a couple to upload to flickr, rarely look at them again 15:28:42 chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B6C5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 15:28:44 *Xach* rarely postprocesses 15:29:02 yeah, iphoto is perfect for that 15:29:07 *Xach* can't figure a way to work lisp back into the conversation, or photo workflow 15:29:24 that's not a problem; one rule for others, another for you is fine 15:29:29 bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 15:30:15 slyrus_: so how about that skippy lzw stuff! 15:30:18 well, since aperture and lightroom are both moving towards plugin archs, I've been thinking about adding a lispy denoise/bayer interpolation if I can 15:30:46 Xof: I msg'd you earlier, then sent email btw. 15:31:02 salex: actually, i really want to toy with adding simple pixel-oriented stuff to vecto, or maybe to some other layer of fiddling. convolution kernels and the like. 15:31:07 Xach: yeah, I'm looking at it. What I want is something that takes a vector and automagically returns another vector of decompressed bytes. 15:31:10 Xach: so that would be lispy at least. I'm not sure I can get at the raw data easily in either case 15:31:34 *Xach* wants a gaussian blur in a web toy 15:32:02 Xach: convolutions are probably best done through a general tool using a 2d fft (lispy one, or link fftw) 15:32:18 *Xach* will look it up 15:32:34 marcoecc [i=me@gateway/tor/x-8dc1fe9aaa6fdde8] has joined #lisp 15:32:46 *Xach* wonders about bringing giant gaudy drop shadows back to text banner generators 15:32:48 i mean, they are best done that way in general, and probably best approach for your needs, too 15:32:53 heh 15:33:32 salex: ch-image does discrete-convolution 15:33:38 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:34:51 umm... that was supposed to be for Xach 15:35:08 slyrus_: i'll check it out 15:35:12 sounds like a coded message 15:35:18 -!- Wizard_ [n=wizard@94.50.1.245] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:35:29 slyrus_: i've not had a proper look at what you've done there 15:35:41 what sort of interpolation do you implement? 15:36:14 interpolation(s) 15:37:28 Wizard_ [n=wizard@90.150.123.45] has joined #lisp 15:38:42 salex: for transforming the matrix? bilinear, quadratic and nearest neighbor 15:39:21 *salex* nods. was wondering about splines 15:40:35 slyrus_: does ch-image understand colour profiles? 15:42:10 Xof: no. you can apply gamma curves, but I don't have explicit support for color (or colour) profiles 15:42:19 that's a bit of a bear 15:42:28 you might be interested in 15:42:32 i thought about throwing together an imaging package 15:42:54 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:43:16 of basics, but woudl need fiarly arbitrary pixel types (ie, floats, signed integers) 15:43:21 (I have been teaching my students about colour profiles, so I now know much more than I deed a couple of months ago about it) 15:43:24 a full ICC package 15:43:42 a good 2d fft 15:43:56 and pretty general i/o 15:43:56 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-499d87fe6126ac17] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:44:09 for starters was my list, so i got discouraged :) 15:44:16 salex: yes, one of the reasons that ch-image is somewhat complex (and requires clem) is that I have support for multiple pixel types 15:45:10 i would also want multispectral 15:45:18 I think I have signed and unsigned 8/16/32 bit pixels and floats (and bits, for masks) 15:45:26 so the fft needs to be though about a bit 15:45:35 and to be generally useful, probably tiling 15:45:39 but that wasn't on the first list 15:45:51 Xof: thanks for the link. that's interesting. 15:45:52 bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 15:45:58 -!- kij` [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:46:00 I'll check it out when I have more time (or less work) 15:46:24 slyrus_: you can also read my course slides :) at 15:46:36 salex: oh yeah, I have support for complexes as the pixel type, which is kinda nice :) 15:46:48 -!- trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:46:52 cool 15:46:58 -!- bombshel2er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:46:59 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:46:59 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:47:08 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 15:47:09 *Xach* is frequently worried about things being fast enough for interactive use 15:47:19 slyrus_: how are you doing your convolutions? 15:48:08 the old fashioned way. no fft. although I did rig up ffi to fftw and used that for proof-of-concept stuff at one point. 15:48:26 but I rigged up a bunch of macro hackery to make it all relatively performant. 15:48:49 slyrus_: that's ok but doesn't scale very well 15:49:04 i assume you can pass it an arbitrary kernel? 15:49:05 scale in what sense? 15:49:07 yeah 15:49:20 there's also support for morphological ops (dilate, erode) 15:49:42 scale to large images 15:49:48 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 15:49:59 your convolution is too costly, i mean 15:49:59 laplacian/gradmag/graddir and the one I used all the time, variance 15:50:25 yeah, fft wins there, but it was fast enough for my thesis work :) 15:50:29 slyrus_: sounds like you've got a pretty good basis there 15:51:03 heh. `good enough for what i'm doing now' describes most of my code 15:51:07 it's an interesting mix of a lot of work, some probably bad ideas, and a bunch of hacks to make the whole pipeline pretty fast 15:51:11 which is why i've not packaged it up :) 15:51:18 -!- perdalum [n=per@0x5552aaba.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [] 15:51:28 it's interesting to look back on the code and think about what I would do differently now :) 15:52:04 I suspect you really do needto add ICC stuff if you want that to be generally useful for bashing images around though 15:52:17 if you can't load them properly, you're kind of screwed 15:52:31 otoh, for web stuff it's not such a big deal (pace gimp) 15:52:31 _zenon_ [n=zenon@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 15:52:58 first, I'm adding non-ffi'ed TIFF support :) 15:53:15 I'm inspired after seeing images in the clim listener 15:53:22 :) 15:53:25 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:53:35 jpeg, gif, png and tiff in the clim listener would be nice to have 15:53:44 (jpeg and gif being there already, fsvo of there) 15:53:49 s/of// 15:53:53 i have part of a tiff reader/writer somewhere too 15:54:05 built on top of the tag reader i mentioned 15:54:17 but incomplete (tiff is a big standard) 15:54:49 i'll post mine later today, hopefully. right now it's time to go to work :) 15:55:40 jlpeters [n=james@77.sub-75-216-183.myvzw.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:55 I use show-paren-mode, but when the cursor is on a closing paren which follows another closing paren, it does not show the parens on which the cursor is but the previous one. Is there a way to change this to my needs ? 15:56:16 vasa [n=vasa@93.84.250.39] has joined #lisp 15:56:20 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit ["..."] 15:56:32 -!- _zenon_ [n=zenon@c83-254-68-50.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 15:59:03 like "it I write some code right now, in which sexp will it be?" 15:59:09 s/it/if/ 16:00:49 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-db61331285ea6403] has joined #lisp 16:01:29 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:01:41 -!- huyslogic [n=Huy@192.206.112.168] has left #lisp 16:02:37 huh -> [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR] [Condition of type SIMPLE-ERROR] 16:02:46 --> Not supported in unithread builds. 16:03:09 ah, probably some sbcl buildflag 16:03:35 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:04:42 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.138.33] has joined #lisp 16:04:58 hugod_ [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279440976.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 16:05:11 Xach: clearly someone needs to write a lightroomalike in CL 16:06:58 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 16:07:40 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:11:29 -!- jlpeters is now known as jlpeters|away 16:12:16 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 16:12:47 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:12:51 ..and given that half of lightroom is apparently written in Lua, this doesn't seem like a mad idea. 16:12:51 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:12:51 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit ["Download xchat-gnome: apt-get install xchat-gnome"] 16:13:27 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [No route to host] 16:14:10 it's not a mad idea, but it's a hell of a lot of work, especially if you want it useable on large images and/or large numbers of images 16:14:11 -!- Zephtar [n=srusek@d62-185.icpnet.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:14:22 the lightroom non-destructive approach is nice, though. 16:14:40 -!- jlpeters|away is now known as jlpeters 16:15:03 how large are large images these days? 16:15:10 ruepelor [n=ruepelor@trir-5d806296.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 16:15:54 from a photo camera or scanner, 40megapixel or so. 16:16:02 much bigger for some scientific applications 16:17:10 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279634158.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:18:00 typical SLR output will be say 12-20 megapixel raw, but handling raw images adds a fair bit of overhaed 16:21:42 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:56 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 16:22:09 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB982B.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:23:29 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 16:23:33 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-207.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:27:06 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 16:27:48 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:21 -!- ruepelor [n=ruepelor@trir-5d806296.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 16:31:09 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc60.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 16:33:42 salex: I hooked up ffi support for dcraw at one point 16:33:59 writing raw converters for every camera under the sun in lisp would be a lot of work 16:34:00 thank you :P 16:34:42 -!- timor [n=icke@w0824.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:36:34 -!- jlpeters [n=james@77.sub-75-216-183.myvzw.com] has quit [] 16:36:39 ths_ [n=ths@p549AE714.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:38:18 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:38:19 vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:38:41 I find dcraw doesn't do a great job versus my camera firmware anyway. There differences are interesting, though - for instance, pointing the camera into a sunrise, the firmware saturates across all the channels to white, whereas dcraw will give me bright yellow. 16:39:24 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 16:39:25 neat program, though. :) 16:40:40 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.138.33] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:41:03 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:43:14 pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has joined #lisp 16:44:44 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:46:17 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-323408242112e91a] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:47:59 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 16:49:51 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AD53F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:16 gz_ [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:52:15 malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb9813.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 16:53:32 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:56:40 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 16:57:27 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [] 16:58:08 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 17:01:15 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@152.pool85-54-94.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:01:21 hefner: i found the lightroom/lua slides pretty interesting. 17:01:35 likewise 17:02:32 dto [n=user@68-187-211-226.dhcp.oxfr.ma.charter.com] has joined #lisp 17:02:41 -!- tripwyre [n=tripwyre@117.193.163.26] has quit [] 17:03:14 particularly that it was developed in house, but with such a different approach 17:03:24 -!- malumalu [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb9813.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:52 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:03:54 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 17:03:59 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 17:04:20 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:11:17 -!- mega1` [n=mega@pool-01dca.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:11:44 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-94.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:11:51 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 17:12:14 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:13:11 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:14:50 http://www.levien.com/type/myfonts/inconsolata.html 17:14:55 oops 17:14:58 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 17:15:54 the 't' is funky. 17:18:22 hefner: I don't notice it at normal (~8pt) sizes. 17:18:56 I think you could, if you so chose. 17:19:17 maybe not, that's tiny. 17:21:36 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joined #lisp 17:43:59 gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:36 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-85.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 17:48:30 Boston Lisp Meeting next monday at 1800, MIT 32-124: Tim McNerney 17:49:40 That is a bit different from the previously announced thing, isn't it? 17:50:24 this one sounds interesting (I can't come, but it does sound interesting) =( 17:50:37 is anyone driving there from montreal on monday? :\ 17:50:37 hefner: can you ever? 17:50:59 Xach: if I wanted to sit on a train for six or seven hours, I guess. 17:51:55 hefner: that's what i do when i want to go. 17:52:03 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 17:52:41 Xach: that's the previous announced thing. 17:52:51 Fare: when do you need a count by? 17:53:27 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 17:54:06 kreuter: say, monday midday 17:54:15 ok. 17:54:27 kreuter, I'll probably order from kiraz cafe or some such 17:55:02 pkhuong, you live in montreal these days? 17:55:40 The announcements should include the RSVP info. 17:55:48 *Fare* 's cl-launch test-suite catches bugs in the new SBCL standalone-executable support. Long live automated test suites! 17:56:03 Fare: yay! what bugs? 17:56:13 Fare: have been for 5ish years. I missed OOPSLA because the girlfriend's around toronto. 17:56:13 cl-launch has such a combinatorial explosion of options that only automated testing can do the trick 17:56:19 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:53 Xach, well, I had now declared SBCL as dumping executable images, but had failed to make them actually executable when not dumping standalone binaries... 17:57:21 pkhuong, I'll be sure to contact you next time I come to Montreal, then. 17:57:32 veritius [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 17:57:39 Xach: bug in my attempt at cl-launch 2.08 17:57:42 ah, oh i see. 17:58:03 I want to declare a symbol called title, but that's already a used function name. Can I use the symbol title in any way? 17:58:15 the test suite exerts thousands of possible combos of flags 17:58:24 -!- nickga [n=nickga@pc022.cs.york.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:58:24 veritius: what do you mean by "declare"? 17:58:54 you can create a symbol in a different package, if you like. 17:58:58 kreuter: use.. like this (setq some-var '(title my-title)) 17:59:24 veritius, no problem with that 17:59:29 that's not declaring, but assigning. what sequence of steps preceded that? 17:59:55 none, it's a global variable 18:00:03 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 18:00:21 that's not the actual names but.. 18:00:23 at least one of us is confused. 18:00:27 has anyone got a license to lispwork under unix? 18:00:38 strike that: I'm confused, and I think you are, too. 18:00:39 and can try cl-launch with it? 18:00:47 (darn, I should have tried while I could) 18:00:57 verit pasted "title" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69123 18:01:17 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:33 veritius: okay, so that should assign *BOOKLIST* a value. 18:02:06 you should have used DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER to define the variable first, however. 18:02:18 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2EE75.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:02:33 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@152.pool85-54-94.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 18:02:39 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 18:03:25 it says: Free reference to undeclared variable *BOOKLIST* assumed special. but I have used setq before. but that's not the way to define global vars then? 18:03:35 no 18:03:42 use DEFVAR or DEFPARAMETER. 18:04:14 some lisps don't have assume setq to declare special. 18:04:35 i can't won't proofread my my sentences 18:04:38 so a special variable in lisp, is a global (in C) 18:04:43 no 18:04:48 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 18:05:01 not exactly -- it's more useful 18:05:14 because you can locally rebind it with let 18:05:16 all standard global variables are special, but not all specials are global. 18:05:38 veritius: Here's a good explanation: http://www.flownet.com/gat/specials.pdf 18:05:50 (it would be a conforming extension to have non-special globals, however.) 18:05:52 but that I can do in C as well, just changing the scope.. use the name in an inner block 18:06:02 different semantics. 18:06:07 okay 18:06:14 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 18:06:18 gcv: thx btw =) 18:06:19 rebinding a special variable is dynamic binding. 18:06:31 veritius: i recommend reading http://gigamonkeys.com/book/variables.html if you're trying to understand this, it's time to start learning to think in a new way 18:06:53 if you've used Perl, "local" variables are dynamically bound. 18:06:56 -!- ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:07:43 kreuter: But most perlers are just told "don't use 'local'" 18:08:25 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-69-255-1-168.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:08:29 *kreuter* used local, was shunned. 18:08:46 I wish setq in sbcl actually did just make a global. 18:08:52 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 18:09:06 it'd be much nicer for futzing around at the repl 18:09:12 I think nikodemus has a defglobal or something in the works 18:09:23 yea 18:09:26 I think Fare and foom mean different things by "global". 18:09:27 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 18:09:45 Revised rule of when to use my and when to use local: (Beginners and intermediate programmers.) Always use my; never use local unless you get an error when you try to use my. (Experts only.) Experts don't need me to tell them what the real rules are. 18:10:12 Good ol' mjd. 18:10:27 bhall [n=bhall@unaffiliated/bhall] has joined #lisp 18:10:28 mjd? 18:10:29 foom: anyhow, if toplevel setq did do that, SBCL might lose its reputation for being a pain in the ass. 18:11:19 Fade: Mark-Jason Dominus. Sort of a Perl thought-leader (although, I think he's not doing Perl much anymore. He wrote "Higher-Order Perl" which is as scary as you might think. 18:11:28 hum. sbcl won't accept --core on a executable image. 18:12:05 isn't the point of executable images that you don't have to supply a core file? 18:12:06 kreuter: yeah, damn, that'd suck! 18:12:07 mjd also said "lisp is somewhat functional but the community is dysfunctional" in the intro to higher order perl. 18:12:24 sellout: the title makes my brain convulse with the contradictory impulses to either laugh or cry hysterically 18:13:10 thought-leaders in the Perl community all seem to hate Lisp. 18:13:45 kreuter: i think he just hated the lisp community 18:13:54 Xach: was he all that wrong about it? 18:13:54 oh 18:14:14 He's only semi-informed about lisp. 18:14:18 Fare: sure! there is no lisp community. 18:14:34 not a bad answer. 18:14:34 sure there is! #lisp 18:14:45 this is a community? 18:14:50 but not very satisfying either. 18:15:00 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:15:04 Xach: then who the hell ate all that food at the last boston-lisp meeting? 18:15:11 I thought we were united by a shared disgust for all the alternatives. 18:15:17 kreuter: pixies 18:15:18 I actually saw him talk at OOPSLA yesterday, and (with Dan Weinreb in the front row) he says "if you guys think regular expressions are bad, you should see Lisp's FORMAT ... it has looping and conditionals and everything." 18:15:18 kreuter: closet clojurers 18:15:28 And Dan says "I wrote FORMAT" 18:15:33 foom: yeah, if someone writes how defglobal should behave in all the wierd cases I can't think of, coding it up in sbcl wouldn't be too hard. 18:15:35 haha 18:15:49 sellout: and? 18:15:54 is that the end of the story? 18:15:54 sellout: that was one of the most charming things about oopsla last year for me, and i only saw a tiny part of it. 18:15:55 I guess the question is: why hasn't cclan or any other similar attempt worked so far, and what can I (or anyone) do to help lower the cost of entry to lisp programming 18:16:22 Fare: I'm working on it. 18:16:30 what are you doing? 18:16:47 I'd have guessed "writing an idiot-friendly IDE with bundled libraries" 18:16:52 Fare, libraries & distribution? 18:16:53 sellout: i was at a panel where people were talking about weird stuff from the 60s and old geezers would stand up and say "oh yes, i wrote the compiler for that ancient computer" 18:17:09 kreuter: Well, _I_ thought that was funny enough. But MJD was a bit taken aback. 18:17:18 :) 18:17:33 Fare: trying to make something that makes it easy to get a consistent, working set of supportive libraries into your favorite lisp environment. 18:17:36 I missed FORMAT an awful lot when I worked in Perl. 18:17:54 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 18:18:02 Fare: and it seems like other people are taking a stab at it as well. 18:18:16 Xach, an officiel project yet? 18:18:43 tic: No. I haven't had the time to work on it lately. 18:19:37 milanj- [n=milan@79.101.196.242] has joined #lisp 18:19:44 attila_lendvai [n=ati@business-89-132-61-222.business.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 18:20:17 maybe the problem is that there are too many small stabs and no big shredding machine. 18:20:18 -!- sely [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:20:28 i point people at clbuild for now. 18:20:31 I would like to work on a big shredding machine. 18:21:25 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2EE75.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:34 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:21:46 Xach, any design papers or still just rough ideas in that maze of yours? 18:22:27 I think the combinatorics are stacked strongly against anything reasonable. 18:23:11 tic: Just rough ideas. 18:23:34 you can't put together a complement of libraries that does everything and that works on everything that some people consider to be Lisp implementations. 18:24:20 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-91.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:24:21 I think sometimes things fail to work simply because nobody ever tried. 18:24:46 It might be nice to easily find and fix those kinds of accidental incompatibilities. 18:25:15 well, I mean that the stuff you might want to do web development on Clisp is going to be different than what you'd want to do web development on SBCL, for example 18:25:18 make more mistakes faster! or else, you're not trying hard enough. 18:25:27 kreuter: sure. 18:25:46 i'm thinking more about things like #+(sbcl cmucl) when #+(sbcl cmucl ecl) would work fine, for example. 18:25:52 or other really simple issues. 18:26:03 hello 18:26:15 -!- sykopomp|out [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:26:39 poor SCL, always forgotten. 18:26:44 that's a good example 18:27:06 if it wasn't hard to test things on scl, i would do it much more often. 18:27:18 Xach: Don't forget nil. 18:27:28 nil's licensing is obnoxious. i'll never test it! 18:27:34 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.169.122] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:28:30 that's the thing: it requires a lot more altruism from people trying to build an infrastructure for CL than it might otherwise. 18:28:32 I'm still fond of the "write exclusively to SBCL" approach. seems to solve a lot of problems. 18:29:09 "Well, I could spend the weekend figuring out what works on GCL, or I could do something personally useful." 18:29:24 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 18:30:16 there's a lisp called nil? 18:30:16 ehu, memo from attila_lendvai: you are the usocket maintainer, right? in sbcl.lisp/handle-condition the typecase should be for serious-condition's, not just errors. i have this change here locally, but i can't remember why... but i remember that it was a big headache until i've finally found it. 18:30:32 i think there's already a lot of altruism involved in writing, documenting, and publishing a library for common lisp 18:30:48 attila_lendvai: thanks for the memo. 18:30:51 ehu: There'll be two if nyef gets his way ;) 18:30:57 maybe there's a way to reduce incremental additional altruism cost... 18:31:06 ehu: thanks for usocket :) 18:31:23 I'll check out the code some more. The same code is in other backends too. Would this apply everywhere? 18:31:24 Xach: but there's also some payoff to the author, in that he gets to use his library. 18:31:26 attila_lendvai: welcome 18:31:39 mib_fzsk8n [i=53e35f0f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fd46ccba23e93791] has joined #lisp 18:31:48 instead of trying to reduce that cost, try to increase the payoff 18:31:59 Hello #lisp. Are there any hopes of running McCLIM on the microsoft windows? 18:32:05 Fare: postcards from adoring gcl users? 18:32:16 mib_fzsk8n: you can run it, if you have an X server. I've done it. ;) 18:32:18 mib_fzsk8n: install x window? 18:32:23 I tried postcardware, once. Never got any postcard. 18:32:37 (lpr2) 18:32:39 younder [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 18:32:46 mib_fzsk8n: if you're more adventurous, you could try building gtkairo on windows. :) 18:32:47 I wrote some software like that too. 18:32:59 I'm not trying to be negative, just reporting on my recollections from a couple years ago of trying to construct a library bundle for several implementations. 18:33:00 ehu: i thik yes. the contract of serious-condition is that it requires user interaction, and although one is free to signal a condition using 'error that is not a serious-condition (or vica versa) i think the proper way is to check for s-c not for errors 18:33:19 Hmm.. Well not too bad news then. 18:33:28 not great news.. 18:33:34 stassats: How do I do that on the microsoft windows though? 18:33:37 kreuter: i think the situation is pretty negative in general. i'm curious about which parts are difficult accidentally and which are difficult in more fundamental ways... 18:34:11 mib_fzsk8n: there was some thing called 'xming' iirc 18:34:20 well, I remember spending several weeks on it, and eventually just saying "screw this; I don't ever /use/ these lisps." 18:34:25 heh 18:34:26 *mib_fzsk8n* googles. 18:34:40 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:35:05 kreuter, yeah, got this impression wrt cl-launch. 18:35:21 "why am I trying to make it work with GCL?" 18:35:43 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 18:35:50 but I suppose for something meant to be a compatibility layer, it makes sense to try the exotic. 18:36:05 Fare: that seems like an area of guaranteed deep implementation-specific mucking around 18:36:09 well, you're clearly a better man than I am. 18:36:41 kreuter: maybe not...how many times have you ascended? 18:36:56 *kreuter* is confused. 18:37:01 ok, then it's clear. 18:37:24 nah. I just believe that since there is a lot of standardization already happened in the OS, part of the solution to making portable lisp code is: revealing those OS-level interfaces, and building on top of them rather than on top of non-standard non-portable Lisp interfaces (like say logical pathnames) 18:37:43 Xach: on a public server? once. 18:37:54 -!- pixel5 [n=pixel@copei.de] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:38:01 That xming looks very interesting, thanks stassats. If I understand it correctly I could have sbcl + mcclim running on a linux machine and have it forward it to the windows with the xming. So all should be well. 18:38:08 Fare: Nah, we just need to build a Lisp OS that supports logical pathnames! 18:39:23 mib_fzsk8n: that should work 18:39:32 iolib is a good example of that (revealing the os interfaces) 18:40:35 pkhuong: if you can't think of them, then who cares how it behaves in those cases! ;0 18:41:00 attila_lendvai: modulo the "portable" part :) 18:41:09 -!- gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has left #lisp 18:41:19 gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 18:41:54 kreuter: that's just the question of a volunteer for most part. but noone cares about windoze... :) 18:42:24 Woho. Life is saved. Thanks #lisp, you're the best. 18:42:44 -!- chris2 [n=chris@p5B16B6C5.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:42:46 yay! 18:42:52 *rsynnott* loves the lovely elephant 18:43:16 (I've just finished replacing a crap homemade object database with it) 18:43:56 I'm having trouble with cl-ppcre, maybe because I never used Perl... How do I make it treat newline characters as any other character? 18:44:13 I was looking at the elephant website the other day, and I was wondering just how much space does a saved object take up anyway? 18:44:17 disk space I mean 18:44:42 42 bytes! 18:45:01 zwo inches and a cookie 18:45:14 Athas: use the multiline option 18:45:17 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:45:55 Actually... it seeems like :single-line-mode t is what I want. 18:45:59 How... obvious? 18:46:04 mib_fzsk8n: the serialisation seems rather efficient 18:46:07 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 18:46:24 I can't get it to make sense, but whatever, it works. Thanks anyway. 18:46:30 my database (a few 100K largeish objects) uses more space for indexes than objects 18:46:40 mib_fzsk8n: also, it depends on the backend 18:47:07 the BDB and postmodern ones store serialized objects as binary blobs, the CLSQL one stores them as base64 encoded 18:47:40 but it very much depends on how many slots your object has and what's in those slots 18:47:47 (and also how many of them are indexed) 18:47:47 Hmm.. I think I'll try it out :) 18:48:05 eut [n=keram@Macaw.cens.UCLA.EDU] has joined #lisp 18:48:08 hello 18:48:18 more spaces for indices than objects? 18:48:24 that should really never happen 18:48:27 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:48:38 more space* 18:48:49 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 18:48:50 I was a little surprised myself 18:48:59 I've got a few indexes that I could reasonably get rid of 18:49:00 is there a built in function that takes as parameters lists and constructs a new list with the elements of the parameters? 18:49:14 anybody know of a quick reference for c99's fancyschmancy integer and pointer types? 18:49:27 and I think the actual storage of indexes in the postmodern backend isn't terribly space-efficient 18:49:34 like (foo '(a b c) '(d e f)) ==>> (a b c d e f) 18:49:35 eut: example? 18:49:42 :) 18:49:44 eut: append does that. 18:49:59 (b-trees, implemented on postgresql tables, which are in turn implemented on other b-trees :) ) 18:50:09 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 18:51:04 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:51:07 -!- TDT [n=TDT@dhcp80ff86ef.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:51:14 Xach, great. thanks :] 18:54:57 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:56:18 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 18:56:58 jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:57:30 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:57:34 soverton [n=user@75.145.221.229] has joined #lisp 18:58:26 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:59:40 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 19:02:53 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A2628B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 19:05:43 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:05:56 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 19:05:56 -!- bombshel1er13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 19:06:02 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 19:06:46 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.155.52] has quit ["I know my own mind... and it's around here somewhere!"] 19:08:09 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-114-216.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:54 perdalum [n=per@0x5552aaba.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 19:12:52 codeFiend [n=anton@66-7-254-75.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 19:13:54 sublem [n=none@p54A9C0EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:14:43 -!- gcv [n=gcv@ool-4572f4ca.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [] 19:14:56 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:16:23 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:16:27 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.3] has joined #lisp 19:17:06 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:17:46 -!- sublem [n=none@p54A9C0EA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 19:17:59 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 19:20:31 anybody know good lexer generator for CL? 19:20:50 -!- perdalum [n=per@0x5552aaba.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [] 19:20:55 minion: tell vasa about lispbuilder-lexer 19:20:56 vasa: direct your attention towards lispbuilder-lexer: Stub added for asdf-install see Lispbuilder site for more details. http://www.cliki.net/lispbuilder-lexer 19:21:25 thx 19:21:27 =) 19:21:47 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:21:52 perdalum [n=per@0x5552aaba.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 19:23:46 i used dso-lex for a small compiler. was usable, though not really fast 19:25:06 Does anyone know of a Lisp library to turn plural nouns into singular nouns? 19:25:09 one of the cl-yacc things also has a lexer 19:26:26 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:26:26 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-45-245.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:27:38 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-47-61.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 19:28:02 Athas: sort of an anti-~P? 19:28:09 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 19:28:24 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 19:28:26 Xach: yeah. Ideally it'd have a built-in dictionary for the nonregular cases. 19:28:32 -!- bedlam [i=bedlam@case.rit.edu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:29:55 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 19:30:08 -!- mogunus [n=user@173.9.7.10] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:31:44 -!- Thas1 is now known as Thas 19:32:12 bedlam [i=bedlam@case.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 19:32:15 it would be amusing if ~P knew about irregular nouns. 19:32:42 it would be neat if someone went through the basic-english-grammar package and added plurality where appropriate 19:32:43 in ALL languages 19:33:21 oddlyzen [n=oddlyzen@151.202.125.227] has joined #lisp 19:33:56 drat. colon and atsign are both used up. 19:34:37 an FFI call to an appropriate C lib, perhaps? 19:34:55 it's also amusing that you can supply floating point arguments to ~P. 19:35:01 (or java; it really is a shame that rhickey's Java FFI thing never escaped from lispworks dependencies) 19:35:08 kreuter: erm, what does it do?! 19:35:44 um, plural for any number not EQL to 1. 19:35:57 "one point five ponies" 19:36:12 -!- Aszarsha [n=Miranda@67.204.46.124] has quit [] 19:36:12 ah :) 19:36:17 that makes sense 19:37:11 I guess. I think for values between zero and one I'd probably use the singular. 19:37:15 "half a pony" 19:37:17 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:39:01 kreuter: 0.2 _____? 19:39:20 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-110-113.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:39:41 sellout: 'ponies', hopefully 19:39:52 if you haven't got a halfpony then god bless you. 19:39:54 rsynnott: Agreed. 19:40:05 yeah, I guess 19:40:10 *rsynnott* actually lols :P 19:40:26 kreuter: I think the word "half" is a special case. "0.5" would use the plural. 19:40:27 also: one-fifth of a pony 19:40:43 I thought ponys were atoms. :( 19:40:47 yeah, the 'a' is referring to the singualr. 19:41:02 *tcr* wants a format control which is responsible for voice output 19:41:09 Although "0.1 ponies" sounds weird to me. 19:41:11 sellout: I think maybe it's got to do with fractions versus decimal. 19:41:16 (format *standard-voice* ...) 19:41:24 Probably just the juxtaposition of "one" and "ponies" 19:41:27 eg: 0.1 dollars 19:41:31 Is "pony" something different than the animal w/ four legs? 19:41:39 Hun: epic hack. whip up a gray stream interface to festival. =p 19:41:39 nope :) 19:41:41 I want a pony! 19:41:48 You can't handle a pony! 19:41:50 "three quarters of a pony" seems more likely than "three quarters of ponies" 19:41:54 Fare: Well, I can contribute 2/5ths. 19:41:57 hefner: that would count as trivial, right? 19:42:00 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:42:03 is the name trivial-voice taken yet? 19:42:11 kreuter: I think they refer to two different things ;) 19:42:14 2 hoofs doesn't make a whole pony 19:42:33 tic: I used the word "pony" because *everybody* finds them amusing. 19:42:37 One is most of a pony, the other is three pieces that might all be the same section of different ponies. 19:42:42 right 19:43:01 kreuter, that is true! 19:43:03 three quarters of all ponies chew sugarless gum. 19:43:19 kreuter: Now _that_is an odd image. 19:43:27 mommy mommy, they're doing pony arithmetics again. - come fast in, before they start doing calculus 19:43:27 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:43:39 *sellout* wonders how the non-mouth-having quarters chew anything. 19:43:39 vs.. three quarters of a pony chew sugarless gum. 19:44:25 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 19:44:30 enough horsing around, I guess. 19:44:40 *groan* 19:48:07 meh, I want to hack, but my brain is covered in fog. 19:48:59 Mine is covered in bone. 19:49:14 so, between the bone and the tissue there's fog. 19:49:39 -!- mib_fzsk8n [i=53e35f0f@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fd46ccba23e93791] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 19:49:40 who cares what's there? just get hackin 19:49:45 <_deepfire> Hmm, it might be interesting to have instance slot values have dynamic scope 19:49:48 Hun, can't focus. 19:50:00 _deepfire, what for? 19:50:03 that's why it's hackin and not programming 19:50:04 ;) 19:50:11 _deepfire: threads. 19:50:23 _deepfire: you might like to google for LETF 19:50:42 <_deepfire> thanks! 19:50:45 erm, and Lisp. 19:51:13 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 19:51:18 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:51:35 and Pascal Costanza has done research into "dynamically scoped slots" 19:52:25 <_deepfire> aha, I half-expected his work to be somewhat relevant.. 19:52:38 well whole-expect it now! 19:52:45 <_deepfire> :-) 19:52:56 (defmacro wholespect ...) 19:53:09 -!- perdalum [n=per@0x5552aaba.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [] 19:53:30 whaddya know... Elisp's cl module has a letf. 19:57:57 You can't handle a pony! <-- hahaha 19:58:24 _deepfire: it's pretty trivial to achieve... you just set the slot value to a gensym, and then use the symbol value of the gensym as the slot value via slot-value-using-class 19:58:57 I enjoyed reading P. Constanza's paper about ContextL. 19:58:59 you leave a way to access the symbol itself of course, and then it's a simple matter of PROGV to bind the symbols 19:59:10 ahaas: the presentation at the montreal scheme/lisp user group was also nice 19:59:20 Xach: Is it online? 19:59:25 *drewc* has been working with contextl since the day it was released. 19:59:36 ahaas: the recording failed, i think 19:59:47 the recording worked fine for the earlier scheme presentation :~( 19:59:52 too bad 20:00:04 I saw that he has some reason papers about it, too. 20:00:10 s/reason/recent/ 20:00:34 drewc: also, you watch sbcl die after using a couple thousand such objects ;) 20:00:36 drewc: Really? Do you still use it frequently? 20:00:46 drewc: is there anything documenting/describing high-level what it does? 20:01:21 ehu: He has papers about it here: http://p-cos.net/ 20:01:37 dnolen [n=dnolen@70.107.147.221] has joined #lisp 20:02:01 ahaas: daily .. its in integral part of my web application framework. 20:02:19 drewc: That's great! Good to know. 20:02:42 ahaas: thanks. I've been interested for some time, just didn't see much about it. 20:02:58 ehu: the papers are good reading.. the first one especially. 20:03:05 hrm. I _should_ be moving the Limp repos to git at c-l.net, I'm just so damn tired. 20:03:15 when i read it i had greenspunned p about 2/3 of it and it was getting ooogly. 20:03:20 By the way, where do you guys usually place the Git repos of a project? /project/foo/foo.git ? 20:03:26 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:04:46 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 20:05:53 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:07:45 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 20:10:33 perdalum [n=per@0x5552aaba.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 20:11:23 tic: until there's gitweb and git-daemon support, it really doesn't matter 20:11:29 is there a faster way of doing (truncate (log x 2)) ? 20:12:09 tic: But I was told to go to the cl.net bugtracker with such question and couldn't be bothered because repo.or.cz works better for me anyway. If you wan to use git on cl.net, because you'd like to file those tickets and get the real answers. 20:12:27 slyrus__: (1- (integer-length x))? 20:12:29 slyrus__: is it an integer? Well, assuming it's not a denorm, and you're on x86, etc ;) 20:12:43 yeah, it's an integer 20:12:44 lichtblau, *nod* so file a ticket for cgit, gotcha. 20:13:07 integer-length is what I was looking for. thanks xach! 20:14:04 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 20:14:07 (oh wait, no need to assume anything for floats either, just decode-float it) 20:14:34 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:14:49 I need to do reasonably simple serialization of CLOS objects. Surely there must be dozens of libraries for this, but I can't find any! 20:14:59 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:15:33 -!- malumalu_ [n=malu@hnvr-4dbb9813.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 20:15:45 <_deepfire> Athas, cl-store is what I use. 20:15:56 ouch. writing a C library. What's the GCC equivalent of (declare (ignore foo)) to not get a warning about some unused argument? 20:16:17 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@62.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 20:16:23 Cl-store looks exactly like what I envisioned, thanks! 20:16:58 Fare: you should join ##c and ask the exact same question. It would only be fair. 20:17:23 *Xach* waits for today's scheduled discussion of what pointers really mean in Lisp 20:17:30 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:17:44 Fare, turning off warning flags :) 20:17:44 o_0 20:17:51 let's not have that discussion. kthx. 20:18:43 Cl-store is apparently EXACTLY what I need. Excellent library! 20:19:58 *tic* feels bad about asking it last time (in disguise) 20:20:18 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 20:20:19 Fade, #pragma unused? 20:20:27 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:21:06 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 20:21:37 it's actually (void)x; 20:22:37 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:23:17 silenius [n=jl@e178037035.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:23:41 That... makes sense in a horrible way. 20:28:26 sbt_ [i=80fd9c4d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-378dd190a4f0610c] has joined #lisp 20:29:22 I used to program mostly in C before I found lisp .. 20:29:34 this is a huge waste of time 20:29:52 languages are protocols 20:29:59 all types of languages 20:30:15 the skilled programmer can code the same thing in any turing-complete language 20:30:25 *ushdf* throws up 20:30:40 Im really sorry that I said something that evoked mention of 'turing complete' 20:30:55 the question is how many hoops you have to jump through to get results. 20:30:58 hi, this question may be too vague to answer, but I'm running the usual SBCL+SLIME setup and usually after about 15-30 minutes of coding emacs starts to get really slow. It's like swank is called every time I move the cursor. Does anyone know what could cause this? 20:30:59 vixey: 20 lashes with a wet noodle for you. 20:31:36 sbt_: what platform are you on? 20:31:41 ubuntu 20:32:00 emacs22? 20:32:20 23.0.60.1 20:32:41 you built it yourself? 20:32:47 no 20:32:56 it came with feisty 20:33:12 no sorry, gutsy 20:33:19 no sorry, heron 20:33:35 :) 20:33:56 i'm using an intrepid ibis machine on x86_64 with the system packaged emacs, and it's v22.2.1 20:34:11 and cvs slime. 20:34:59 the combination is both fast and stable. are you loading any emacs lisp modules that do a lot of network IO? 20:35:00 so I will switch to intrepid next week, so you think this problem is likely to be platform specific? 20:35:06 no, none 20:35:16 no, i was just wondering what revisions of the software you were using. 20:35:32 are you using the packaged slime, or did you download and build it yourself? 20:35:37 packaged 20:35:49 try the cvs code 20:35:57 the packaged versions are deeply lagged. 20:36:15 sbt_: packaged lisp stuff is usually pretty unusable 20:36:30 ok, will do a full format to intrepid next week and get it from cvs. until then I'll just reboot emacs once in a while :) 20:36:37 i generally use the packaged sbcl to bootstrap a clbuild instance of everything. 20:37:01 ok 20:37:12 try this: http://common-lisp.net/project/clbuild/ 20:37:18 -!- soverton [n=user@75.145.221.229] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:37:28 -!- chrisdone [n=user@unaffiliated/chrisdone] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:37:40 chrisdone [n=user@82-33-137-16.cable.ubr02.wiga.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:37:48 nice 20:38:30 it beats manually tracking everything, for sure, and it sidesteps the packaging lag. 20:39:01 -!- perdalum [n=per@0x5552aaba.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [] 20:41:06 hm. reserving a percentage of pages and doing a full GC where we normally lose seems to let SBCL survive the (loop (make-array)) test. 20:41:35 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 20:41:39 kreuter: are you talking about the killerstorm article? 20:42:15 maybe, dunno. 20:42:16 that wasn't an entirely fair test with a conservative gc, given it was collecting them in a list, not just allocating in a loop 20:42:44 hefner: just allocating in a loop is sufficient to kill SBCL, often enough. 20:42:49 O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-191-101.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 20:42:54 conversely, I used to run out of heap in cmucl 19a all the time and recovered 20:45:49 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-76-124-114-5.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:45:50 meh. there's bigger fish to fry than just dying, actually. 20:46:12 dying? that's nice. gets rid of a lot of problems. 20:47:53 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:29 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 20:49:18 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:49:41 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:54:10 photon [n=photon@unaffiliated/photon] has joined #lisp 20:59:46 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C36E.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:51 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:02:17 hm. conservatism in the collector sucks. 21:02:56 i wrote a poem about that once 21:03:30 *_deepfire* just finished reading Pascal Costanza's "MAKE-METHOD-LAMBDA considered harmful" 21:04:04 link 21:04:17 http://p-cos.net/documents/make-method-lambda.pdf 21:04:34 conservative GC considered harmful? 21:04:38 -!- mattrepl [n=mattrepl@c-69-255-1-168.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:04:45 clisp considered harmful 21:05:07 TGIF :) 21:05:38 :O 21:05:43 :::__---OOOOOO 21:05:48 -------------_________-p-fpd-fph-dpf-hpdf-hpd-fphd-fhp-dfph 21:05:52 ok stop 21:05:53 *ushdf* (SPLAT) 21:05:59 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-00c86c13299afb34] has joined #lisp 21:06:45 i don't have the energy for this "topical conversation" nonsense anymore 21:06:45 when I interrupt (loop (make-array ...)) do a full GC, room reports 460MB usage. if I abort from that, do a full GC at the REPL, room reports 42MB usage. 21:07:16 I'm allocating 50MB arrays. 21:07:19 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-168-248-118.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:07:27 <_deepfire> ushdf, what do you mean? 21:07:45 it's time to indulge purely in infornography 21:07:52 I can imagine that two of them could be pointed to from the stack at any time, but 8? 21:07:57 the constant barrage of consciousness with subliminal messages 21:08:12 ushdf: go away 21:08:21 ok, fine, i'll stay on topic 21:08:48 er, 6 21:09:00 -!- bhall [n=bhall@unaffiliated/bhall] has left #lisp 21:10:47 codeFiend_ [n=anton@66-7-254-75.static-ip.telepacific.net] has joined #lisp 21:11:42 -!- codeFiend [n=anton@66-7-254-75.static-ip.telepacific.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:14:26 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:14:28 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 21:15:07 pinterface [n=pixel@knvl-static-09-0024.dsl.iowatelecom.net] has joined #lisp 21:15:44 anybody use lispbuilder-lexer? 21:15:51 not me 21:16:03 i have warning "undefined variable: %0" 21:16:12 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 21:16:14 anything that does lexing is probably just turning one problem into two 21:16:36 but expanded deflexer statement have symbol-macrolet for %0 21:16:49 it's a magic ! ( 21:18:06 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0EA23.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:31 My impression of lexer generators has always been that it takes more time to figure out the tool than it takes to write the lexer by hand. 21:21:36 kreuter: how did you get the number 6 ? 21:22:56 pjb [n=chatzill@191.Red-83-45-221.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:39 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:28:33 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-85.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:29:12 -!- keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:29:28 gloaming [n=steve@c-76-113-7-71.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:30:40 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [] 21:31:55 So how do lispers organize code bases with several files? For my C code, I generally have one src directory and another lib one, and compile .c files into .o files in lib, and then link the .o files together to make the executable. Doing all this in a makefile. Can something similar be done in lisp using the REQUIRE keyword? or maybe ASDF? 21:32:27 Nshag [i=user@99.a2c-250-158.astra2connect.com] has joined #lisp 21:32:33 gloaming: use asdf 21:32:35 gloaming: yes, this can be done with asdf. 21:33:21 gloaming: but for my simple project, I just write a simple loader.lisp file containing something like (dolist (f '("f1.lisp" "f2.lisp" ...)) (load (compile-file f))) 21:33:22 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 21:33:40 keithr [n=keithr@ip68-13-249-183.ok.ok.cox.net] has joined #lisp 21:34:11 So I am using clisp, and going through the asdf manual, can I make it store the lib/fas files in a directory seperate from the .lisp files ? 21:34:36 yes. notably with the asdf-binary-location system. 21:34:39 yes, using asdf-binary-locations 21:35:28 icefox [n=ben@c-98-217-205-76.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:36:08 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:36:18 anyone going to the lisp meeting on Monday in Boston? 21:38:33 Am I missing it, or do gray streams not provide the ability to ask a stream about its length? 21:38:58 icefox: Yeah, I'll be there. 21:39:00 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-96-186-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:39:42 sellout: would it be best to park and take the T in or is there parking around? 21:39:53 cool. Thanks stassats and pjb the asdf-binary-location system seems to be exactly what I was looking for. 21:40:04 icefox: Hmm ... I'm not sure about parking. I always take the T. 21:40:26 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:40:29 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-179-47-61.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:40:32 sounds like a good idea 21:40:45 -!- ivarref_ is now known as ivarref 21:41:12 froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 21:42:14 -!- _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:42:28 _CitizenKane_ [n=quassel@edit57.daily.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 21:43:13 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-254-207.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 21:48:52 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9d8c1bf821996962] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:49:45 -!- kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:49:54 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:50:14 V-ille, ping 21:50:44 sohail: Yes? 21:51:23 V-ille, sorry for pinging you but I'm trying to figure out how one extends a Java interface in ABCL 21:51:38 Ho humm.. I've never tried to do that. 21:51:45 What's the most efficient way to do a lot of random accesses on a single file from multiple threads? Can file streams be cloned? 21:51:52 doh. thanks anyway :-) 21:52:01 sohail: So, you have lisp code and you want to extend a Java interface on lisp side? 21:52:14 I have my doubts about that. 21:52:31 I mean, I have my doubts about the facilities abcl is going to give you for that. 21:52:45 V-ille, yep that's it 21:52:48 sohail: use JAVA:JINTERFACE-IMPLEMENTATION 21:53:14 That's in java.lisp in the source code. 21:53:21 gonzojive pasted "random access common lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69150 21:53:23 e271, thanks! 21:53:53 I *think* it works ok. But I haven't tried it out in a while. 21:54:07 k 21:54:25 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 21:54:29 Report a bug back to us with a test case if you run into problems, ok? 21:54:32 -!- froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:55:00 will do 21:55:43 -!- chrisdone [n=user@82-33-137-16.cable.ubr02.wiga.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:54 chrisdone [n=user@82-33-137-16.cable.ubr02.wiga.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 21:57:02 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 21:58:08 e271: apparently it should still work, it's just a little bit unfit for jsr-223, for example. Alessio had some problems with it. You can probably still return such an implementation through eval. 21:58:42 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 21:58:57 V-ille: ACK. 21:59:13 That's actually something that we need to look at sometime. 21:59:28 Did Alessio detail the problems? 21:59:31 Aka, how to pass such an implementation of an interface to the java side. 21:59:53 He said that at least the jsr-223 interface getter cannot really be implemented with it. 21:59:59 Wait, I'll dig a reference. 22:00:46 Ifur [n=osm086@rasmus.uib.no] has joined #lisp 22:01:13 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 22:01:54 e271: This one: http://java.sun.com/javase/6/docs/api/javax/script/Invocable.html#getInterface(java.lang.Object,%20java.lang.Class) 22:02:14 Alessio said that the object is not passed to the interface-implementing methods. Any ideas? 22:02:23 mattrepl [n=mattrepl@pool-68-238-164-124.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:02:28 Aka the thiz doesn't travel. 22:04:11 e271: Alessio also said that he couldn't pass non-primitive values to java functions from lisp side. 22:04:13 Hmmm. Thats using generics, which might be the problem 22:04:33 ABCL's notion of Java bytecode is still pre Java5 22:04:49 Which works because Java6 erases generics at compile time. 22:04:51 Should a this reference be in the parameter lists of the defuns given in interface-implementation, then? 22:04:59 so the jproxy is not implementing? 22:05:24 could it be a classloader mismatch? 22:06:22 Not really sure. I would have to spend some time thinking about this. 22:06:57 Is it possible to somehow unquote a list? specifically, what I want to do is have (fun '(arg1 arg2)) become (fun arg1 arg2). 22:07:44 pedro_ [n=chatzill@c-2e81e055.144-1-64736c15.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:07:49 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:09 i.e. I would have to go over how generics get compiled into bytecode mentally. 22:08:44 If you have 'jad' in your path, you can use DISASSEMBLE to look at the code corresponding to a method. 22:08:49 Which is where I would start. 22:09:09 sbt_: if fun is a function, then (apply #'fun '(arg1 arg2)) is the same as (fun arg1 arg2) 22:09:17 not sure if that is what you were after or not. 22:09:32 -!- pedro_ [n=chatzill@c-2e81e055.144-1-64736c15.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Client Quit] 22:09:59 that's exactly what I was after. thank you! 22:10:51 e271: any idea if the object reference is usually part of the param list of a lisp method given to interface-implementation? 22:11:28 I don't think generics are the problem. But that's just me. 22:11:34 (apply #'fun '(arg1 arg2)) is the same as (fun (quote arg1) (quote arg2)) 22:11:48 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:11:52 dmiles_afk: do you have any insight about this? You've been playing with this stuff quite a bit, after all. 22:11:54 It was just a WAG. I am on thin, non-defensible ice here. 22:12:21 e271: Well, there's something that you can contribute on, then :D 22:13:00 V-ille, i am adding if (iface.isInstance(proxy)) { System.out.println("worked"); } 22:13:09 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:13:18 dmiles_afk: where? 22:13:25 to JProxy to see. but one issue its it returns a wrapped java object.. not the proxy 22:13:35 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1EC61.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:13:47 this is why i always been advocating making LispObject an interface 22:13:53 dmiles_afk: Yes, but I'm wondering if the lisp side of things has an object pointer or not 22:14:12 aka a this pointer 22:14:18 pjb: really? I am not sure I quite understand the difference. (apply #'+ '(2 3)) gives the expected result, 5. 22:14:20 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1F730.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:49 gloaming: with numbers the difference is not obvious because numbers are self evaluating: (eq '5 5) 22:14:52 -!- oddlyzen [n=oddlyzen@151.202.125.227] has quit [] 22:14:52 V-ille, it will yes, an invokeinterface uses a this 22:15:19 dmiles_afk: ok, but how will that parameter be conveyed to a lisp defun given to interface-implementation? 22:15:23 gloaming: but for symbols such as arg1, there's a big difference: (let ((arg1 42)) (print (list arg1 (quote arg1))) (eq 'arg1 arg1)) 22:15:26 pjb: ah. thanks for bringing that up. 22:16:01 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:16:11 gloaming: try (apply #'+ '((+ 1 1) 3)), which is not the same as (+ (+ 1 1) 3) 22:16:19 V-ille, oh right .. checking 22:16:33 -!- icefox [n=ben@c-98-217-205-76.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 22:16:34 '(arg1 arg2) which is (quote (arg1 arg2)) is quite different from (list arg1 arg2). 22:16:51 V-ille, checking to see if the dummy-method is going to expect that jobject 22:17:14 Even if '(3 4) which is (quote (3 4)) gives the same result, when evaluated, as (list '3 '4) or (list 3 4). 22:18:43 Right. Sorry for the confusion. so would it be correct to say that (apply #'fun (list arg1 arg2)) is the same as (fun arg1 arg2) ? 22:18:46 V-ille, looks like it only thinks about the interfaces arglist.. and doesnt adda self/thiz 22:19:06 dmiles_afk: somehow that doesn't seem very correct to me 22:19:23 gloaming: yes 22:19:24 And that's my take of it too.. 22:19:33 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-214-23-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:19:38 I see nothing even remotely resembling a this reference 22:20:16 V-ille, well it probly going to expect the JProxy to do the real work from the java code 22:20:55 right now it makes like a singleton 22:21:14 dmiles_afk: well, wouldn't that require that I make a custom jproxy, and then I need a different version of implement-interface? 22:21:24 ..that takes a parameter that is the proxy to use. 22:21:40 Oh, meant interface-implementation 22:22:18 yes.. a new LispHandler for each proxy needs to be made 22:22:33 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-191-101.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit [] 22:22:55 actually .. hrrm .. lookking at something here 22:23:44 ok yeah if LispHandler wasnt a static class then things would make sense there 22:24:23 The primitive only creates LispHandlers, no derivation, no custom objects, nothing. So that definitely needs to be changed. 22:24:31 jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has joined #lisp 22:24:50 We thought that this is somehow something special required by jsr-223, but I think it's a clear deficiency in abcl. 22:24:57 Twilight777 [n=steve@c-76-113-7-71.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:25:44 I think we need to enable CLOS methods to be used, and also normal functions that take structs/vectors/lists/whatever as "the object to use" 22:26:14 We'll probably have interesting times with GC when we do that 22:26:35 java will make the GC makes sense though 22:26:57 oh yes, _hopefully_ there are no problems with that, but I'm not 100% sure 22:27:24 JProxy.table.put(proxy, new Entry(iface, lispDefinedMethods)); 22:27:41 actually ok there is a 1-to-1 right there 22:27:43 Yes? That's effectively a singleton. 22:27:54 each proxy geneed gets a map 22:28:35 Yes, that's probably fine in the gc sense, but the interface implementation is not fine. 22:28:59 The jproxy is what it is, I don't see how it can be customized with the current implementation? 22:29:41 adding one line... 22:29:49 -!- milanj- [n=milan@79.101.196.242] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:30:42 change.. SubLObject lispArgs = Lisp.NIL; to SubLObject lispArgs = new Cons(proxy,Lisp.NIL); 22:31:10 oops or push it the very last to get it onto the front 22:31:17 -!- silenius [n=jl@e178037035.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:31:26 I think you just quoted non-abcl code :) 22:31:38 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-214-23-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 22:31:53 Even so, the object parameter needs to be conveyed to interface-implementation, and then to the proxy 22:32:04 Then it can work AFAICS 22:32:11 right after the for loop of lispArgs = lispArgs.push(new JavaObject(args[i])); 22:32:19 right 22:32:36 oops, yeah i use SubLobject instead of LispObject ;P 22:33:23 yup V-ille, you got it 22:33:41 dmiles_afk: Thanks for helping with this, I need to find a victim^Wvolunteer to implement this 22:34:02 (pushing ther proxy right before the evalCall) 22:34:19 -!- UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:34:38 dmiles_afk: I wouldn't necessarily push the proxy, I was thinking of pushing a LispObject that's given to the Proxy. 22:35:16 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:35:21 oh right yeah.. . would not want to keep rewrapping .. perhaps save it with the handler 22:35:23 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 22:35:39 dmiles_afk: yes, and that also allows the "object" to be anything 22:35:49 aka a non-object, if need be 22:36:12 index to a global vector/hash.. 22:36:14 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:14 42.. 22:36:16 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:36:17 anything.. 22:37:13 in my java lisp copied various parts of abcl.. i hadnt ran into this deficient.. but in my JavaObject i save the class in the case of wrapping an "int" i save the Integer and the int.class 22:38:17 it also allows me to implment stub methods that are static 22:38:32 yes, well, having an object parameter allows it to be an actual instance of a class at the lisp side, thus enabling object-specific things instead of the current singleton-ish behaviour. 22:38:38 -!- gloaming [n=steve@c-76-113-7-71.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:39:07 I'd think that allows us to 1) more closely map java concepts, especially when implementing interfaces 2) more easily implement jsr-223 22:39:10 yeah 22:45:48 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:46:44 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:47:57 xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:49:37 dmiles pasted "jproxy" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69153 22:50:14 V-ille, anyhow is what i do now 22:54:07 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:54:22 allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:57:05 -!- neurogeek|m [n=neurogee@201.208.73.206] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:57:07 dmiles_afk: I just thought that if we add the possibility to give the "object" to an interface implementation, it could help with your work too 22:57:10 Modius_ [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:32 Especially if this will ultimately allow you to pass things defined on the java side to such an interface implementation 22:57:51 Then you can pass your company-things to abcl for interface implementations 22:58:00 BW^- [i=Miranda@94.191.140.181.bredband.tre.se] has joined #lisp 22:58:01 definately! 22:58:05 Way cool. 22:58:06 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 22:58:08 do you know any quotes on Lisp by Guido van Rossum? 22:58:14 anything like, it's halfway to lisp 22:58:21 so LispObject becomes like an interface? 22:58:26 Kind of. 22:58:36 birdsbit` [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 22:58:42 You can pass your own objects as this-objects to interface implementations defined in lisp code. 22:58:42 BW^-: that sounds more like the guy steele quote wrt java 22:58:45 you can still leave a ALispObjkect arround for everything 22:59:02 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 22:59:07 I'd think that allows you to bridge your own stuff to abcl. 22:59:35 ..as a bonus, without modifying LispObject to be an interface at all. 22:59:39 yeah actually it would meaning there was a special LispObject that wraps my stuff to llook/fell like ABCL 23:00:13 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2EE75.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- Wizard_ [n=wizard@90.150.123.45] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- sjbach [n=sbach@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- Partyzant [n=Partyzan@rps312.ovh.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:13 -!- bougyman [i=bougyman@bougyman.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 23:00:15 wraps my SubLobject to play like a LispObject 23:00:22 Yes. 23:00:30 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2EE75.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 Wizard_ [n=wizard@90.150.123.45] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 mikezor [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 Partyzant [n=Partyzan@rps312.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 sjbach [n=sbach@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 bougyman [i=bougyman@bougyman.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 vcgomes [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:00:30 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 23:00:33 hefner: m 23:00:40 There's some things that need to be looked at, mainly downcasts an reflection stuff. 23:00:49 If we can get those working too, we're golden. 23:00:56 i kinda do that right now.. its just awkward when i produce a SubLFixnum 23:01:08 or a SubLString 23:01:13 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 23:01:38 and then ABCL does liek a ((Fixnum)var).value 23:01:38 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:02:36 so what i been doing is making ABCL Fixnum implement my SubLFixnum interface 23:02:42 With proper bridging, we could actually end up with a situation where you provide a bridge object defined at the java side, and it'll be an abcl LispObject _and_ implement any interface you like. 23:03:07 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:03:29 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:03:33 Or, you could do the bridging on the lisp side. Sounds very nice to me. 23:03:34 oh right.. yes .. just making a proxy actually sbclass LispObject 23:03:50 -!- Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 23:03:59 BCEL shows how to make a proxy that subclasses anything 23:04:03 No, by making the object given to the proxy subclass LispObject and implement the interface you desire. 23:04:09 BCEL? 23:04:28 bytecode engineering library .. getting you link 23:04:29 Ah, found it. 23:04:56 I'm thinking that the proxy doesn't need to do that, if it's given an actual object to work with. 23:05:13 We might be on to something here. .:) 23:06:30 yeah thats another thing the JavaObject thingy could actualyl also be a proxy of the object 23:07:12 Exactly. Give a JavaObject, or even your own object as a "this" object to the proxy. It doesn't necessarily need to be a LispObject, if I'm correct. 23:07:21 froog___ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 23:07:53 it does.. because LispObject is a concrete class.. unless you do a BCEL prxygen 23:08:12 You could use a properly defined Function or Closure for that and give the LispObject/your_object as a parameter. Or give it the JProxy an interface instead of an object. 23:08:18 bcel is just a wrapper arround ASM.. you dont realyl need BCEL at all 23:08:49 So, I think you could give your_object (or an interface of it) to the JProxy. 23:09:28 Could be that that requires also the ability to customize the JProxy created. Or the InvocationHandler. 23:09:52 InvocationHandler should actually be sufficient. 23:10:00 the invoaction hanler could just be implmented in Lisp ;P 23:10:24 Oh yeah, but if you want to implement it in Java, it could be made possible, I suppose. 23:10:30 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 23:10:45 If both are possible, it will be incredibly nice thing to have. 23:11:00 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:11:05 indeed 23:13:35 -!- bascule [n=noether@static-ip-62-75-255-124.inaddr.intergenia.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:13:45 -!- Twilight777 [n=steve@c-76-113-7-71.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:13:59 something i am going to want .. i did this a while ago.. is i made it possible to subclass java.util.AbstractMap from script interpreter 23:14:20 Twilight777 [n=steve@c-76-113-7-71.hsd1.nm.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:14:23 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:15:02 if someone hit an unimplemented method it threw a NoSuchMethodError.. but it presented a full Map interface.. allowing th eprogrammer to only have to implment a couple methods 23:15:03 -!- daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:16:26 any class that wasnt final could be subclassed.. and let you add interfaces.. in our case we subclass object 23:16:32 dmiles_afk: So you actually want some sort of AbstractMapAdapter? 23:16:46 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:18:10 it was (jimplement-subclass "java.lang.AbstractCollection" ) and it hits the same code as (jimplment-interface "Collection") .. except it just hits the abstract methods" 23:19:00 -!- sbt_ [i=80fd9c4d@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-378dd190a4f0610c] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 23:19:06 Yes, but AbstractMap itself does not provide the throwing of NoSuchMethodError, so we would do an adapter behind the scenes and derive your own implementation from that. 23:19:27 Then you need to only override what you need, the adapter throws NoSuchMethodError for the rest. 23:19:39 actually i think iot throws a AbstracTMethodError or something 23:19:44 yeah 23:20:13 So it's like (jimplement-interface-with-stubs) 23:21:11 (jimplement-interface-with-superclass "java.util.Map" "java.util.AbstractMap") 23:21:17 We could even provide a way to define a custom stub, with a sensible default. 23:21:49 or just (jimplement-subclass "java.util.AbstractMap") 23:22:19 -!- froog__ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 23:22:25 yeah thats a good idea.. where we genrated sensable stubs 23:22:31 Well, I think the stubbing should not be the default. I see a need for a jimplement-subclass and jimplement-subclass-with-stubs. 23:22:51 Now that's going to revamp java programming. :) 23:23:03 right .. i am off in more a feature addition.. your sorta staying on topic :) 23:23:23 If you could use our stuff for that with classes defined on the Java side, you'd have a generic adapter-generator for java. 23:23:53 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:24:10 i see that 23:24:23 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C209.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:24:44 dmiles_afk: Interestingly, it would also allow you to do multiple inheritance in java. :D 23:25:04 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:25:08 yes a Mixin 23:25:20 ths_ [n=ths@X67e7.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 23:25:28 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AE714.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:25:33 oh its not BCEL i used it was called CGLIB.. http://cglib.sourceforge.net/apidocs/net/sf/cglib/proxy/Mixin.Generator.html 23:25:39 Yes, a mixin on the lisp side, but it could have access to multiple base class objects. 23:25:39 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:25:51 So in effect, it would be real multiple inheritance. 23:26:04 Because the multiple base objects can be concrete. 23:26:37 yes 23:26:45 Now we're getting into a territory that some Java purists are going to hate. :D 23:28:02 It's even possible to define method combination in java code. 23:28:27 i'd like to be able to define a java.util.Collection by only implmemnting a Iterator in lisp 23:28:46 So the order of function lookup could be customized. This is starting to sound "evil". Or maybe it's just "providing lisp facilities to Java". 23:29:43 dmiles_afk: So in that case, there would be a Colletion generated that uses the Iterator you provide? 23:30:01 yeah eventally be able to let lisp CLOS/MOP etc./. play into java programss 23:30:14 Wicked. :) 23:30:53 yeah.. you only imp[lment size() and iterator() from Lisp and subclass AbstractCollection 23:31:12 Maybe really soon now someone's going to tell us that we're just talking about implementing a MOP/AMOP for java. 23:31:35 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 23:31:57 when i was playing with BeanShell .. i saw how to do it 23:32:17 (the way the beanshell scripts lets you subclass existing java classes) 23:32:38 Well, with reflection it's possible. Almost anything is. 23:33:18 With a slightly more advanced implementation, you could subclass not-yet-existing java classes, by implementing a custom dispatcher. 23:33:38 But that's practically just reflection. 23:33:46 beanshell had to generate bytecode for it, they store an instance of the LispObject to call into the addaptioer no mater what method is called 23:34:04 htey called LispObject a JThis 23:34:13 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A10DC.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:34:21 I assumed this is not exactly new. 23:34:30 Few things are. 23:34:53 The interesting thing is that there are practical possibilities to implement that kinda stuff in abcl. 23:34:58 yeah the custom dispatcher is probly the sanest way .. since it provides no limits 23:35:35 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:11 yeah . the main thing is how easy this is w/o bringing in a 3rd party generation lib 23:36:46 like we could do this using nothing but abcl as shipped + cglib.jar and one lisp file 23:37:26 jproxy of course still be fixed just becasue it was wrong 23:38:30 cglib is not needed, you can interpret the generating-phase. 23:38:31 so enumerate the changes to ABCL your thinking? 23:38:50 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@70.107.147.221] has quit [] 23:38:59 well, the first thing is providing the "object" parameter to JProxy. That's the mandatory step without which none of this is possible. 23:39:20 I mean of course the abcl JProxy. 23:39:43 -!- Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:39:54 After we get that, we can start of thinking the more complex things that are possible. 23:40:11 benny [n=benny@i577A10DC.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 23:40:31 yeah that works for right now 23:41:07 I could probably write some sort of roadmap for this. I asked the guy who did the first incarnation of jsr-223 for abcl to look at this. 23:41:15 I'll let you know when there's progress. 23:41:47 the jproxy handler can hold the arg ... in fact i see what your saying .. a person could pass a existing object but announce that the object implments something .. and that object can have been made from lisp 23:41:57 Exactly. 23:42:01 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:42:35 ok thats pretty smart.. right now .. we are doing JavaObject.. but it could have been anyhin 23:42:38 There's two possibilities, either the object itself can implement something, or a custom InvocationHandler can make it behave as if it implements something. 23:42:54 Should be generic enough, I suppose. 23:44:04 i might have a prexisting JavaObject java.util.Date object that i want to implmment java.util.CharSequence.. i could do that with this 23:44:23 or make a Cons implment java.util.Set etc 23:45:05 forget the Cons.. but prbly a defstruct 23:46:14 i guess the main goal is getting peoples structure objects they make in lisp to work in java 23:46:49 Exactly. 23:47:09 Structure objects, or CLOS instances. Later others too. 23:47:30 wife is tugging on arm now 23:49:27 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:54:01 Is there a function for nearest int given a float? 23:55:32 <_deepfire> specbot, round 23:56:08 _deepfire: thx 23:58:17 <_deepfire> What are the technical implications of "may do X for performance reasons, but forbidden to define it as useful behavior"? 23:59:32 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["<1900> puuuuuuf! puuuuuuf!"]