00:02:16 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:02:54 hefner: thanks for the help! My next question is how do I get all the mop stuff in sbcl? It seems to be already available in clisp 00:03:40 Draggor: the package for mop stuff isn't standardized, unfortunately. In SBCL, you can find them in SB-MOP. 00:03:40 it's better to use closer-mop 00:04:37 yeah, that too. closer-mop is a portability layer. although for simple introspection like this, you won't likely run into any problems other than the package names being different. 00:05:54 jcowan, 1) if `continuable' means `restartable', then yes: FIND-RESTART, COMPUTE-RESTARTS, &c. 00:05:59 jcowan, 2) with restarts. 00:06:17 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 00:06:56 jcowan: what Riastradh said 00:07:01 jcowan, 3) the condition handler is welcome to establish new restarts and signal the condition again; or it is welcome to defer the handling of the condition, in which case it cannot establish new restarts visible to the enclosing handler. 00:07:32 A condition handler also cannot defer handling of the condition and substitute a new condition. 00:08:17 To wit: If a condition handler returns, the condition system interprets that to mean that it has deferred handling of the condition to the nearest enclosing handler, and passes the condition on to that next handler. 00:09:04 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:09:37 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:10:42 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 00:10:56 Restarts are dynamically bound and some are associated with conditions (see WITH-CONDITION-RESTARTS). The term `non-continuable condition' is probably best interpreted as a condition without any explicitly associated restarts. 00:14:53 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:16:38 -!- BW^- [i=Miranda@79.138.211.123.bredband.tre.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:16:51 -!- sely [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 00:18:02 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 00:19:05 a-s [i=root@93.112.77.64] has joined #lisp 00:21:07 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:23:24 slyrus: I can reproduce and have fixed your (or a) problem. 00:23:31 thanks for playing! 00:24:00 apparently, athas only tested the jpeg code on square images :) 00:28:00 rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has joined #lisp 00:29:46 Riastradh, chandler: thanks. 00:29:54 jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:32:08 -!- jcowan [n=jcowan@72.14.228.89] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:32:52 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:34:03 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:34:10 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 00:36:03 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 00:39:27 O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-190-31.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 00:40:51 00:41:18 *jfm3* 00:41:36 -!- Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:35 jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.45.111] has joined #lisp 00:42:46 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@202-161-23-92.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:43:07 -!- blx [i=krille@port-87-193-235-133.static.qsc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:44:02 spacebat [n=akhasha@124-171-81-34.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 00:44:13 slyrus: d'oh. the fix is as simple as killing the assert. 00:44:21 slyrus: i'll take it out and push out a new release. 00:44:24 *Xach* face red 00:44:41 slyrus: do you have any other GIFs that fail? 00:46:00 ths_ [n=ths@X668e.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:49:14 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:50:37 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:51:37 hiroyuki_y [n=yamanaka@mfac.st.wakwak.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:52:38 -!- semanticpc [n=praveen@wifi-roaming-170-162.nss.udel.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:52:49 kreuter: i missed any more info on the locklace warning, if there was any. was there any? 00:52:58 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 00:57:02 -!- ths [n=ths@X4da4.x.pppool.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:57:03 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 00:58:12 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:58:19 Xach: nikodemus fixed it in 1.0.21.27 00:58:22 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 00:59:38 kreuter: ah, cool. 00:59:49 slyrus: bug fixed, new release released. 01:00:33 I only figured that out after being really damn confused that the code in CVS couldn't account for the behavior I was seeing in the 1.0.21 repl. 01:01:26 heh 01:04:11 nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:59 Wow how the hell did JAVA become so popular, it seems every flaw of this retarded language comes from the fact that soemone decided everyhing in this world is a fookin object 01:05:08 nicknull: wrong channel 01:05:10 class this, inheritance that, obfuscated to the max shit code 01:05:33 i want a hug 01:05:41 right channel then? 01:05:53 nicknull: go away 01:06:29 -!- nicknull is now known as smrtss 01:06:46 -!- smrtss [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 01:07:20 *hefner* has a bad feeling, as in the calm before the storm 01:08:14 -!- Maghnus [n=Maghnus@68-190-147-184.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [" HydraIRC -> http://www.hydrairc.com <- In tests, 0x09 out of 0x0A l33t h4x0rz prefer it :)"] 01:11:59 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:12:59 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:18:08 semanticpc [n=praveen@c-69-253-237-19.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:19:27 -!- jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:22:48 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 01:25:49 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:26:03 you know, i really don't like this convention I'm starting to see on other people's code with the whole putting multiple :keywords in a single line of a class definition 01:26:05 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.8] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:26:22 makes stuff look terrible, and a PITA to edit the slots properly 01:26:47 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 01:26:47 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:26:51 so what if the class uses more lines? :< 01:27:00 quek [i=3dc2735c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b85e750e8400c3c9] has joined #lisp 01:27:22 Meh. I like it that way. 01:28:25 I think widescreen monitors have artificially trained me to prefer long lines, though. 01:29:03 -!- quek [i=3dc2735c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b85e750e8400c3c9] has quit [Client Quit] 01:29:04 mogunus: I prefer long lines, too. I usually set my cap at 100 01:29:21 quek [i=3dc2735c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4d0706e1a046d4b6] has joined #lisp 01:30:03 -!- quek [i=3dc2735c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-4d0706e1a046d4b6] has quit [Client Quit] 01:30:18 mogunus: what bothers me is the following stuff: 1. it looks ugly to me, 2. it's harder to edit, or consume right away (stuff isn't aligned, usually). 3. If you want it aligned pretty, you need special facilities to do so, and it's still not as easy to edit. 01:30:35 sykopomp: redskank can align slot definitions 01:30:46 *redshank 01:30:53 There was a package I saw recently that cleaned up a lot of the obvious repetitive stuff in DEFCLASS forms. was it CL-DEF? 01:31:02 stassats: I know. I had to change that because it bothered me :P 01:32:10 that's what I meant by 'special facilities' 01:32:11 jfm3: most of the beginners tend to write their own defclass-macro 01:33:34 sykopomp: that's the same argument as "you need a special editor to count your parenthesis" 01:33:54 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 01:35:14 stassats: so I guess that only drops #3. Redshank doesn't let you quickly pick and comment individual slot options, like you can by just slapping a ; before the line. 01:36:21 *rvirding* must sleep now, goodnight everyone 01:36:31 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 01:37:33 that's not only in defclass. Don't you write each expression on separate lines in order to comment it easy? 01:38:32 not saying that i like or dislike aligned slot definitions 01:39:04 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 01:40:38 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:41:07 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:41:14 vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 01:44:49 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:47:28 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:49:15 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 01:50:01 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:22 Piranha__ [i=jabber-i@number-41.thoughtcrime.us] has joined #lisp 01:54:50 quek [i=3dc2735c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c7fe58b7b4a09158] has joined #lisp 01:56:21 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:57:06 -!- quek [i=3dc2735c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c7fe58b7b4a09158] has quit [Client Quit] 01:57:19 I can say after implementing a simple object system in 178 line that lisp is great to work with 01:58:16 -!- Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:58:17 -!- cky [n=cky@202-74-219-83.ue.woosh.co.nz] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:58:25 lisp is greater, since it already has an object system 01:58:52 A class-based one yes... 01:58:59 qbg: Did you have the enlightenment experience? 01:59:21 Maybe when it comes to the black magic behind object systems... 02:00:32 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 02:00:38 qbg: have you seen the book "Art of The Metaobject Protocol?" That's what comes to mind when you say "black magic behind object systems." 02:01:27 I should try to get our university library to get that book sometime 02:01:43 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:02:24 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:03:12 qbg: best way to get a book for a library is to buy it and donate it! ;) 02:03:32 *qbg* grumbles about being a cheap college student 02:03:52 hehe 02:04:00 there are things that have more value than the food you eat 02:04:08 good lisp books fall within this category. 02:06:57 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:00 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:07:08 Anyways, prototype-based object systems are interesting 02:08:47 they certainly sound interesting. Did you manage to implement a prototype-based system, then? 02:09:07 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:09:07 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 02:09:26 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:30 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:09:36 That is what I tried 02:09:55 Single dispatch, mostly single inheritance though 02:11:14 I blame it on reading this: http://steve-yegge.blogspot.com/2008/10/universal-design-pattern.html 02:13:15 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:13:17 slate (prototypes with multiple dispatch) originally was written in CL 02:13:22 Yegge... 02:13:30 (that would be my language) 02:16:31 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 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irc.freenode.net] 02:28:38 -!- johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:28:38 -!- eirik [i=eirikald@tvilling.pvv.ntnu.no] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:28:38 -!- bougyman [i=bougyman@bougyman.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:28:38 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-36-67.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:28:38 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:28:38 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 02:28:47 zu22 [n=ubuntu@unaffiliated/zu22] has joined #lisp 02:29:13 hey guys just curious why parameter names must be enclosed in *s? as in (defparameter *foo* 'bar)? 02:29:23 Wizard_ [n=wizard@90.150.114.22] has joined #lisp 02:29:23 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 02:29:23 Partyzant [n=Partyzan@rps312.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:23 sjbach [n=sbach@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 02:29:23 lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-36-67.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has joined #lisp 02:29:23 enn [i=eli@ahab.flyoverblues.com] has joined #lisp 02:29:23 bougyman [i=bougyman@bougyman.com] has joined #lisp 02:29:23 johs [n=johs@hawk.netfonds.no] has joined #lisp 02:29:23 slyrus [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:29:23 azuk [i=azure@s2.org] has joined #lisp 02:29:23 vcgomes[away] [n=vcgomes@li17-238.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 02:29:23 drewc [n=drewc@89.16.166.162] has joined #lisp 02:29:32 i was thinking maybe it is stylistic choice to make the variable stand out and get attention? 02:29:43 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 02:30:23 (defparameter foo 'bar) versus (defparameter *foo* 'bar) i think the first style is more natural 02:30:32 It is style 02:30:44 it serves an important purpose 02:30:52 Because the variables created by defvar/defparameter are special 02:31:00 zu22: do you know the difference between special variables and lexical variables? 02:31:12 -!- ggbbgg [n=russd@willers.employees.org] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:31:15 you need to know that they are or else it could cause some confusion 02:31:42 once a variable has been declared special, the compiler is required to bind the variable specially. 02:32:10 so if you say (defvar foo), a subsequent function definition (defun fun (foo) ...) is required to rebind foo when fun is called. 02:33:02 kreuter: not yet 02:33:20 qbg: oh 02:33:26 i guess that is why i'm confused heh 02:33:57 kreuter: ah 02:34:01 okay. in that case, just take the convention as one of those things you do without understanding why. eventually the reason will become clear to you. 02:34:09 *adeht* wonders why `sort' doesn't have start/end parameters 02:34:09 ok 02:34:24 You don't *need* the stars, they are merely just an insanely great idea. 02:35:49 adeht: what would they do? 02:36:20 ah. it's an efficiency thing. 02:37:12 `sort' would have to return a new sequence if they weren't the default (in most cases) 02:37:58 adeht: huh? it could just destructively reorder the subsequence between the bounding indices. 02:38:01 adeht: I'm not sure but I would guess you could sort displaced array 02:38:10 jfm3: that's what I did 02:38:29 kreuter: it has to return a sorted sequence 02:39:25 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:39:49 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 02:39:55 adeht: if we're talking about ways we want the thing to be different from what it is, I think it's implicit that the wording of the spec would have to change :) 02:40:34 e.g., "If the KEY consistently returns meaningful keys, and the PREDICATE does reflect some total ordering criterion on those keys, then the elements of the SORTED-SEQUENCE between START and END will be properly sorted according to that ordering." 02:40:48 freelab [n=freelab@121.32.45.111] has joined #lisp 02:41:12 and I also wonder why it took 0.7 seconds and consed 39mb to sort an array of 100,000 elements of type (unsigned-byte 32).. but that's somewhat ok 02:41:32 -!- freelab [n=freelab@121.32.45.111] has quit [Client Quit] 02:41:33 Is this in SBCL? 02:41:38 qbg: yes 02:41:55 are you really sorting a displaced vector? 02:42:30 kreuter: oh, I'm sorry. it's not displaced; just has a fill-pointer. 02:42:50 hm. probably almost the same. 02:43:13 can you time sorting a simple-vector with the same contents? 02:43:20 echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has joined #lisp 02:43:29 or rather, a vector that is a simple-array. 02:44:26 (I should also mention that :key is default and predicate is #'<) 02:45:21 I'm getting ~.396 seconds and no consing for an array created with (make-sequence '(vector (unsigned-byte 32)) 100000) and filled with random numbers 02:45:36 i went to barnes and nobles bookstore recently and saw like a million java books, tons of c++/c# books and even a good number of C books but not a single Lisp book :( also saw lots of php books. we need more lisp authors :) 02:45:46 kreuter: with a simple array it conses only 70kb or so, and takes about 0.5 secs 02:45:50 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 02:46:09 qbg: try it with a fill-pointer 02:46:36 adeht: how do you know how much memory it utilized you searching in 'top' or something? 02:46:59 clhs time 02:47:00 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_time.htm 02:47:15 qbg: Sorry for sounding stupid, but can you build a sort-of-prototype-based system by just wrapping standard defclass with a macro (and maybe gensym), and doing a little bit of MOP magic? 02:47:28 adeht: oh cool 02:48:34 adeht: .105 seconds and no consing here with a fill pointer 02:48:54 (last time was probably just and oddity with time spent) 02:49:31 sykopomp: I don't know MOP magic, so I couldn't tell you. 02:49:32 I'm using 1.0.21.9 btw 02:50:03 1.0.11.debian here 02:50:07 anyone else know enough about implementing prototype-based stuff with lisp? 02:50:14 qbg: that's _old_ 02:50:40 I know... 02:50:57 I have 1.0.20 on my home account on a university computer... 02:51:42 I/O is so slow on that computer though 02:52:15 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.252.109] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:52:28 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.252.109] has joined #lisp 02:52:33 sykopomp: For my prototype thing, I just used structs and many functions 02:52:37 and a few macros 02:52:41 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:54:11 qbg: I really don't quite understand the big deal with prototypes. It looks nifty, but I don't quite see what's so different from the way I would use regular CLOS, with a bit of dispatch mojo for methods. 02:54:34 adeht: On 1.0.20, I'm getting .050 seconds on the other computer and still zero bytes consed 02:54:41 For an array with a fill pointer 02:55:03 prototype systems map more directly onto object stores 02:55:35 jfm3: clarify? 02:57:14 AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has joined #lisp 02:57:20 sykopomp: well, a typical object store is a persistent associative memory where there are 'objects' each with an 'id'. each object has what amounts to a property list. Now if you want classes, you either do that all in the application logic that works the object store, or you use a prototype system to sneak something like classes orthogonally into the object store 02:57:51 jfm3: ah 02:58:06 sykopomp: Maybe "property-based modeling is fundamental to the way our brains work." to a lesser degree :p 02:58:11 see NewtonScript and/or LambdaMOO for examples. 02:58:56 qbg: you are speaking in buzz. I am looking for a solid idea :) 02:59:33 qbg: interesting. in a dummy test-case it does seem to cons only 70kb or so. 02:59:42 our brains do tend to work well on "objects that have properties and affordances" much to the pride of OO proponents everywhere. 03:00:44 But that's a separate issue from what makes prototype inheritance different/more/less/appropriate than class inheritance and instantiation systems. 03:00:48 I just don't see the big difference between a prototype system and the way I handle CLOS :-\ 03:01:30 CLOS doesn't seem too different on a first look; main difference being that that you need to declare a class before you use it 03:01:31 CLOS has classes. You dispatch methods based on class. 03:02:33 Assuming we're on the same page of jargon, prototype systems don't have classes, you just have a back pointer to a prototype object. somewhere back in that chain lives a pointer to a method. 03:02:35 I now have two vectors whose type is (vector (unsigned-byte 32) 100000), both with a fill-pointer.. one of them makes sort cons 40mb and the other 70kb. 03:03:45 yes, but you can, say, define types, and dispatch on those 03:03:47 adeht: Consistently? 03:03:51 qbg: yes 03:03:57 or, I think I saw an example of this somewhere, dispatch on a certain instance? 03:04:03 I saw some example code somewhere that dispatched a method only for '4' 03:04:29 sykopomp: You can do something with (eql 4) or something like that IIRC 03:04:31 sykopomp: I can't parse your question. 03:04:50 qbg: that's what I meant, yeah 03:05:09 which, I mean, is the basis of what you need to dispatch on 'prototypes', right? 03:05:35 (Yes, I know it's different, I'm trying to see how different, and how to take advantage of that, or what advantages is -actually- provides) 03:06:46 well, in a prototype system as I understand it, you call foo.bar(). If there's no .bar property on foo, it looks at the prototype for object foo. No classes involved. It may have to look at the prototype of the prototype of foo, and so on, to find .bar, and when it does it calls .bar() with what amounts to a 'this' or 'self' pointer set to foo. make sense? 03:07:14 The prototype for foo is just another object. No classes. 03:07:45 yeah, but what's a class? 03:08:05 objects are instances of classes 03:08:19 it's a definition for what an object is, a type to dispatch on, and what slots that class has, and then you make objects based on that blueprint 03:08:38 huh.. now `time' prints "..." rather than the cons statistic 03:08:39 In CLOS, you call (bar foo) and the generic function bar looks at foo and says "oh, this is a member of class corge" and calls the bar method for members of class corge. Or it might walk the inheritance tree of classes. But these are classes, not objects. 03:09:00 lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:18 No classes in a prototype system. Just a pointer to a prototype object (or nil or w/e) 03:09:32 oh, that's because I set *print-length* 03:09:39 jfm3: you -do- have to write what the prototype is at some point :P 03:09:45 Or maybe classes are just specific instances you clone 03:10:04 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@124-171-101-246.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 03:10:21 qbg: you might thing about it that way, too. The neat thing I'm thinking about here is that you can change an object's class in lisp 03:10:22 Wait, are you arguing with me or asking me to explain something? 03:11:07 jfm3: mostly trying to understand what the actual advantage of prototypes is, in the end, versus a flexible class system 03:11:39 Just another way to model a problem? 03:12:02 Just like many languages are turing-complete, but some are better at modeling certain problems 03:12:03 The advantage of prototypes is that you don't have to have a "schema" for your database. It's tables tables tables all the way down. 03:12:22 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:13:46 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:14:45 agep98712 [n=none@p54ABD7CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:16:32 these are not the prototypes you are looking for 03:16:43 we can go on our way 03:17:00 Jedi Mind Trick 03:17:12 Adamant: shhh 03:17:31 jfm3: not a fan of good music? 03:17:34 tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has joined #lisp 03:17:52 Adamant: I like good music. Is that the name of a good band? 03:18:10 not all that good, but OK 03:18:15 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jedi_Mind_Tricks 03:18:54 Are you actually Mr. Goddard? 03:19:57 qbg: I think I know what the problem is. 03:20:47 qbg: what was the range of the random numbers you tested it with? 03:22:29 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@124-171-81-34.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:24:00 10000000 IIRC 03:24:10 well that's a fixnum 03:24:15 it seems that because the element-type is known, `sort' conses lots of objects of type (unsigned-byte 32). 03:24:21 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:24:35 if I remove the element-type, it conses 70kb again. 03:24:44 look at 'most-positive-fixnum' 03:26:42 It is still fast for me and no consing if I make the range (ash 1 32) 03:26:44 I meant because (i) the element-type is known and (ii) the actual elements are not fixnums. 03:27:11 qbg: are you on a 32-bit system? 03:27:15 yes 03:27:39 hmm 03:27:40 sellout [n=greg@12.191.171.51] has joined #lisp 03:27:44 * most-positive-fixnum 03:27:44 536870911 03:28:33 adeht pasted "sort consing" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69039 03:28:38 try that 03:29:20 On 1.0.11.debian 03:29:40 -!- agep3489 [n=none@p54ABD897.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:30:24 First takes .522s and ~53.8 megs consed, second .527s and ~53.8 megs consed, third .283 megs and 0 bytes consed 03:31:02 similar results here (assuming you meant .283 s ;) 03:31:45 yes... 03:32:26 qbg: can you paste your test case with the 2^32 range 03:33:04 now compute in the logarithm and add the values 03:34:58 2^(32 -2 or 3) on a 32 bit machine since you have type info in there 03:35:20 qbg annotated #69039 with "My test" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69039#1 03:36:06 That was in a fresh session, BTW 03:36:19 Got .138 seconds and no consing 03:36:38 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:37:02 qbg: that's because your vector-push is a no-op 03:37:19 qbg: having fill-pointer t means that it's at the end of the vector 03:37:41 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 03:38:11 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 03:39:01 extesible :t makes for slower operation. Are you sure you need it? 03:39:30 Okay, now I'm *finally* getting consing after looking stupid 03:40:59 It won't cons if the range is within a fixnum though 03:41:44 (check-type p fixnum) 03:42:17 to be sure 03:42:24 qbg: yes, so my theory stands 03:44:39 Yep, it is a fixnum 03:46:41 if the element type is t, sort treats the elements as pointers and copies are cheap; if the element type is (unsigned-byte 32) sort treats the elements as integers and copies are cheap for fixnums and not so cheap for bignums. 03:47:04 ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has joined #lisp 03:48:05 That could be optimized 03:49:52 yes, if a nonempty subset of the objects is not cheap to copy, it better ignore the element type 03:50:48 Or you could just optimize for (unsigned-byte 32) 03:50:56 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:08 The compiler should be able to produce efficient code for that case with right declarations 03:52:04 right 03:52:13 It should be upgrading integers to t anyways 03:55:08 but we're not talking about integers 03:55:34 -!- schme [n=marcus@c83-254-191-148.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:56:44 bignums would be cheap though because they upgrade 03:57:48 yep 03:58:48 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:59:59 Interesting, (unsigned-byte 30) gets upgraded to (unsigned-byte 31)... 04:01:03 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:01:22 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 04:01:24 heh. welp, off to sleep now. 04:02:06 Looks like it takes 4 bytes still... 04:02:53 that's kinda obvious from runtime optimization pov 04:03:11 anyway, off ;) 04:19:30 good morning 04:19:49 morning 04:20:10 mornin' beach 04:22:52 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-37-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:08 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@12.191.171.81] has quit [] 04:23:38 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-37.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 04:28:13 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:31:11 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:35:05 -!- semanticpc [n=praveen@c-69-253-237-19.hsd1.de.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:35:42 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:36:48 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:37:00 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 04:40:07 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 04:40:48 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.8] has joined #lisp 04:47:46 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E476A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:48:37 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-68-238-4-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:49:04 -!- ineiros [n=ineiros@kosh.hut.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:49:36 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46DF7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:56:13 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:56:13 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:57:16 -!- yhara [n=yhara@raichu.netlab.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 05:08:42 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:09:49 freelab [n=freelab@121.32.45.111] has joined #lisp 05:10:55 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A11A6.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:11:59 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:12:06 -!- freelab [n=freelab@121.32.45.111] has quit [Client Quit] 05:13:20 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-213-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:15:31 -!- vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:17:53 spacebat [n=akhasha@124-171-95-228.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 05:19:29 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:21:38 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 05:22:56 kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has joined #lisp 05:23:01 hello lispers 05:25:00 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:27:44 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:27:55 hello kiuma 05:28:08 hefner, xach: thanks for the fixes. jpegs and gifs now display properly in the listener! 05:29:38 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:30:15 bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:30:36 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@124-171-101-246.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:33:13 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:16 i just read in lisp that variables do not have type, but objects (atoms, lists) have type, and all objects have the supertype t, and objects can have more than one type apply to them. i guess that implies casting is not needed. 05:34:41 you have "explicit" casting. 05:34:44 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-123-084.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:50 see e.g. http://l1sp.org/cl/code-char 05:35:00 tic: ah ok will check that out 05:35:15 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E476A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 05:37:30 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 05:37:42 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.171.120] has joined #lisp 05:37:46 milanj [n=milan@77.46.169.122] has joined #lisp 05:38:14 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E476A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:38:19 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:38:40 zu22, symbols themselves carry no information on the type of an object. that is correct. however, when you get at the referenced value, well, you have something with type. and you can't just (like in C) pretend it's suddenly another type. 05:38:56 zu22, you 05:39:45 zu22, moreover, most types in Lisp have supertypes; see the MOP function class-direct-superclasses. e.g. (sb-mop:class-direct-superclasses (find-class 'string)) ;==> (#), and so on. 05:41:22 -!- REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:41:29 *slyrus* is wishing I hadn't taken the easy way out and used FFI to libtiff, but rather bit the bullet had written a proper TIFF parser in lisp 05:41:46 slyrus, what's the problem? 05:42:19 tic: no problem really, just that one needs libtiff lying around to use it. 05:42:23 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:42:25 impulse32_ [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:42:57 whereas the jpeg and gif support in mcclim only require cl-jpeg and skippy 05:43:05 Ah. 05:44:01 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-213-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:44:50 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:45:03 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.171.120] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 05:45:56 binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.171.120] has joined #lisp 05:46:01 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:51:15 tic: interesting 05:52:11 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.169.122] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:53:44 slyrus: it's not too late. You can write that parser now. 05:53:58 well, it is too late for _tonight_. 05:54:33 sure 05:55:54 how unfashionable are interpreters these days? 05:56:09 lukego: highly 05:56:24 -!- larrytheliquid [n=larrythe@169.157.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com] has quit [] 05:56:28 I was just thinking that evaluation of an AST might make for a nice runtime-code-is-data abstraction 05:56:56 like being able to inspect a While object that may or may not currently be executing, insert a new function into its condition, etc 05:58:07 You've come to the right channel. 05:58:14 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E476A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:58:43 sarcasm? I always bring my most hopefully-thoughtful ideas to #lisp because of the smart people. hard to know where a directly appropriate forum would be 05:58:46 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E476A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:08 Well, you get that kind of ability to abstract over the syntax of the language itself in Lisp. 05:59:23 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:59:23 at compile-time but not at runtime. I mean, once you compile the code it's not a sexp anymore 05:59:50 If you run an interpreter (I belive CLISP has an interpreter) with the right hooks in it, I'm sure you can modify code on the fly as you describe. 06:00:40 If you can live with static analysis, compile-time as you say, Common Lisp has a whole cabinet of tools for you. 06:00:55 jfm3: clisp has an interpreter, but no compiler. SBCL has an optional interpreter to go along with the compiler. 06:01:16 slyrus: doesn't clisp compile to byte code? 06:01:29 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:01:30 How I can install ASDF-install on Fedora? 06:02:04 (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'asdf-install) works on Debian SBCL. 06:02:13 Give it a go. 06:02:24 H4ns1: yeah, I guess I was considering the byte-code to be interpreted, but perhaps it is more appropriate to call it a compiler. 06:03:01 slyrus: i think what jfm3 was suggesting is that a lisp interpreter might help with what lukego envisions 06:03:07 jfm3, How can I install Hoonchentoot? 06:03:08 swan [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 06:03:17 what do you think of clojure? 06:03:24 minion: tell Wizard_about hunchentoot 06:03:26 Wizard_about: look at hunchentoot: Hunchentoot is a web server written in Common Lisp and at the same time a toolkit for building dynamic websites. http://www.cliki.net/hunchentoot 06:03:27 jfm3, Is ASDF-install useful for it? 06:03:33 jfm3: no 06:03:39 oh, Wizard_ i mean 06:03:59 I have read this page. 06:04:14 lukego: I don't see that an interpreter is necessary. You could recompile the modifications 06:04:26 swan: i'm looking for a project that i can implement in clojure. it has several nice ideas built in. 06:04:40 This page telling that I should use ASDF-install for installing Hunchentoot. How can I do it? 06:05:02 tell Wizard_ about asdf-install 06:05:05 pkhoung: true. it's really the runtime-code-is-data concept that I mean 06:05:23 darn you, minion 06:05:27 Wizard_: I did (asdf-install:install 'hunchentoot) and followed the directions. 06:05:48 jfm3, Thnx a lot 06:06:01 Wizard_: you may have to load asdf-install first 06:06:06 -!- swan [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 06:06:58 Right. You may have to (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op 'asdf-install) to get the ASDF-INSTALL package set up. ASDF-INSTALL augments ASDF by downloading dependencies, checking GPG signatures, figuring out where to dump files, and so forth. 06:07:24 minion: tell Wizard_ about clbuild 06:07:25 Wizard_: have a look at clbuild: clbuild [common-lisp.net] is a shell script helping with the download, compilation, and invocation of Common Lisp applications. http://www.cliki.net/clbuild 06:07:38 clbuild is a pretty common alternative to having to asdf-install stuff. Some prefer it greatly. 06:08:14 Yeah, I have no particular opinions about ASDF-INSTALL it's just what's there for me right now. 06:08:23 clbuild doesn't present in fedora repos 06:09:02 Wizard_: read the page to figure out how to install clbuild :P 06:09:24 brill [i=c1030801@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-45d10644f5dfe141] has joined #lisp 06:09:31 I'm not sure there's anything Clojure can do that Common Lisp can't, aside from run on the JVM and call into Java methods. 06:09:54 (not sure about ABCL FFI) 06:10:04 is that a typo? Closure 06:10:06 -!- brill [i=c1030801@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-45d10644f5dfe141] has quit [Client Quit] 06:10:25 zu22: Clojure is the name of a new Lisp dialect that runs on the JVM. 06:10:33 jfm3: oh! 06:10:53 they should call it Lava hehe 06:10:59 jfm3: immutable data structures? 06:11:03 What is especially confusing is "Clozure" is the name of a Common Lisp implementation. 06:11:09 *aja* thinks it's a bit snake-oil at the moment. Will wait and see. 06:12:01 H4ns1: you can make a struct or an object with just a reader. I'm not sure how much the compiler will do with that information, but you can do it. 06:13:12 jfm3: the point is not that you _can_ make readonly data structures, it is that in clojure you can not change any existing structures. 06:13:18 hefner: is there any slime/readline-style history support in the listener? 06:13:53 ah, right M-p 06:13:58 i want to see more exposure to the concurrency features 06:14:05 yeah, although drei has some irritating quirks in that department 06:14:22 jfm3: that way, you can freely share between threads, never having to worry about locking or consistency. the number of situations where you can actually influence the world so that other threads can see it is limited and visible on the language (as opposed to the library) level 06:14:53 H4ns1 that is if you only use closure immutable datastructures 06:14:58 i fear that idiomatic clojure will be cluttered by access to java libraries 06:14:59 H4ns1: That's not exactly right, but I see where you're going. 06:15:04 if you go to java land too much i think that point is moot 06:15:12 and thats what i dont like 06:15:19 xristos: right. this is what i fear, too 06:15:55 but then, this is the price one has to pay to be able to access a huge infrastructure. i'm kind of sick writing or fixing infrastructure 06:15:56 *slyrus* wonders if clozure will ever implement closure on clojure 06:16:17 anyway, there is #clojure :) 06:16:34 With Common Lisp, there's always the assumption that you the programmer will grow the language design itself a little into what you need. If you want to use the fancy STM constructs and immutable data structures in your CL program, you can. The same is more or less true in Clojure, the issues are just more in your face. 06:16:44 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 06:17:01 H4ns1 so did you find clojure acceptable for your needs 06:17:35 do you think you can replace CL with it and if yes where ? 06:18:25 xristos: i found it easy to write something slightly useful in clojure, but i did not become easy friends with the java infrastructure. i want to use clojure instead of cl to solve problems that are inherently concurrent. 06:18:38 jfm3: how do you implement stm that works with conses? 06:18:41 If somebody offered me a pile of money to write some stuff that absolutely had to run on the JVM and live in a JAR file, I would strongly consider writing it in Clojure. 06:19:09 why not just provide an awesome set of libraries for any common lisp implementation? something akin to the Standard C Library or STL in C++. Java libraries are just methods, nothing magical there. 06:19:13 H4ns1: I'm really not attacking you. 06:19:18 h4ns1 i took a fairly superficial look at clojure myself too 06:19:26 but the problem for me is that i also know erlang 06:19:43 and erlang pretty much solves anything that has to do with concurrency for me 06:20:00 jfm3: i don't feel attacked. i feel that you defend common lisp :) 06:20:07 i fell in love with it and i don't quite like the clojure-concurrency-on-jvm way 06:20:29 so from this aspect i dont feel it has much to offer 06:20:37 and i don't really need access to java libraries 06:20:38 xristos: i wanted to look at erlang, but the syntax is ieh. so clojure seems to be a nicer environment to solve concurrent problems for lispers. 06:21:01 H4ns1: I have no particular agenda here. I am excited by Clojure too. I don't think it brings anything particularly new to the table. 06:21:12 well i also like prolog so the syntax was not problematic for me 06:21:23 please explain why create a whole new dialect of lisp if you can just solve the problem with a good standard library? or is the concurrency part necessitated a change at the language level? 06:22:26 There is CL-STM. I've only looked at it a little. You can build data structures with it that can be operated on with ACID, composeable transactions. 06:22:33 if the language has concurrency primitives integrated in such a way so that you have to use them you are forced to deal with the issue 06:22:55 good morning 06:23:17 also its quite different designing a language for concurrency 06:23:23 and bolting libraries on top of it 06:23:27 see erlang vs anything else 06:23:35 i am not claiming that i'll not use common lisp because there is clojure. i'm just saying that i'm sick of searching for libraries that dead with concurrency effectively in cl. 06:24:07 xristos: oh 06:24:10 xristos: from what i can judge, clojure and erlang are similiar in that they both have concurrency primitives at the languae level. 06:24:17 Wow. Sounds like you deal with a lot of parallel programming! 06:24:33 h4ns yes they are 06:24:40 jfm3: no. i'm not dealing with parallel programming, i am deadling with multiprocessing. 06:25:00 problem for clojure is that the concurrency part is not as well thought out as in erlang 06:25:02 I'm sorry I used the wrong word. This seems like a very sensitive subject for you! 06:25:08 jfm3: and threads, excuse me, are not the proper answer to write multiprocessing programs. 06:25:16 xristos: that is your claim. :) 06:25:18 you're tied to jvm threads instead of erlang lightweight processes 06:25:30 also you cant have processes on remote nodes 06:25:40 H4ns1: from what i've read so far one can extend lisp into their own dialect so you could just make your own concurrency flavored lisp hehe. 06:25:47 jfm3: indeed. i have very little needs to utilize multiple cpus, but i deal with concurrent activities a lot. 06:26:33 zu22: yes - but as that is not a language feature, the common lisp libraries will not play nice with your concurrent dialect unless you either ignore (replace) or fix them 06:26:33 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-103-129.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 06:26:34 I hope it is everything you ever dreamed of. 06:26:42 zu22: for example, think concurrent hash table access. 06:26:45 H4ns1: ah 06:26:57 concurrency makes my brain hurt :P 06:26:58 jfm3: it is not. my reference is genera :) 06:27:29 there is no true concurrency in genera 06:28:10 xristos: correct. i'm not interested in "true concurrency" as i just wrote. i'm interested in programming environments in which i can deal with concurrent activities. 06:28:35 I've never had the pleasure of using a Lisp Machine. I started programming just as UNIX workstations were crowding them out of Engineering buildings. 06:28:35 xristos: i'm not so much interested in knowing the number of cpus that are utilized. 06:29:21 clojure sounds like a good fit 06:35:15 -!- Drakeson [n=user@bas3-toronto02-1279545961.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:35:25 Drakeson [n=user@bas3-toronto02-1279545961.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 06:39:37 damn, I was ready for bed when I had an idea that could be Brilliant, but now it's going to take me into late in the night to discover that it was crap :) 06:40:23 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:40:31 lukego: tsk. btw, do you have an opinion on the plastic cell architecture? 06:40:41 what's that? 06:41:34 lukego: an architecture for dynamically reconfigurable hardware. i think you should at least glance over it, hold on. 06:42:00 I was just at a talk about "Liquid metal" along those lines but that was mostly vapour up to now 06:42:10 lukego: http://www.cis.nagasaki-u.ac.jp/labs/oguri/ 06:42:23 lukego: i find the "area management by pressure" most mind boggling. 06:42:46 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:43:06 thanks for the link! I'm pretty excited about all things fpga. but I'll wait until a daylight to read it :) 06:43:19 lucky you have daylight! 06:43:30 lukego: i'll bug you on your opninion in the future 06:43:41 opinion. i had a hell of a night. 06:50:32 so I'm actually writing a small program in common lisp at the momemt *gasp* 06:50:43 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 06:52:09 of course using FFI out to a fully-baked library for, say, tiff images has its advantages. cl-jpeg doesn't support reading progressive jpegs it seems. 06:54:07 I think I want a virtual machine that operates directly on sexps 06:54:24 I would poke a CONS into the instruction pointer for example 06:54:36 is there such a beast already? 06:54:51 lukego: secd pretty much does that 06:55:03 yeah I was thinking of your blog post on the subject. I'll read that tomorrow too 06:55:06 lukego: its memory is organized as cons cells. 06:55:22 can the program hack itself while it's running? 06:55:34 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 06:55:39 hugo__ [n=hugo@89.181.121.53] has joined #lisp 06:56:06 lukego: not in the sense that you propably think, as it is a purely functional machine 06:56:16 lukego: (no side effects) 06:56:56 lukego: but there are extended secd implementations that do all sorts of funky things. 06:57:25 I'm getting kind of excited at the idea of an secd-like machine executing a program that's mutable and can find a reference to itself (e.g. by looking in *program-counter*) 06:57:43 -!- a-s [i=root@93.112.77.64] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:58:29 lukego: yeah - my plan for the fpga based secd is to make it into a self-supporting system eventually 06:58:45 good plan 06:58:54 lukego: that will require destructive operations so that it can do i/o itself. 06:59:03 did you see that BEE3 link on LtU? 06:59:15 not much meat but still fun 06:59:21 i don't think so, let me look 07:00:02 ah, great! 07:00:43 -!- binarycodes [n=sujoy@59.93.171.120] has quit ["WeeChat 0.2.6"] 07:01:28 oh well, i need to spend more time with my fpga boards :/ 07:05:40 I've yet to actually do anything on an FPGA, was being stubborn about not installing a new OS to use the flashing tools but I'm over that now. I have a tiny little one in USB stick form factor 07:06:42 fpga board in usb stick form factor? 07:07:18 yes and it only cost about $50 or something 07:07:29 I'll try to find the link. it's the lowest-end xilinx 07:08:01 ah, ok - i always wanted a tarfessock1 for portable fpga hacking, but it seems to be dead :( 07:08:05 http://www.dlpdesign.com/fpga/fpga.shtml 07:08:10 (as in: never made it to the market) 07:08:59 $120 on octopart, sans printed manual 07:09:13 cute! 07:09:44 this is the one i would want: http://www.enterpoint.co.uk/moelbryn/tarfessock1.html 07:12:29 -!- hugo_ [n=hugo@89.181.126.61] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:14:35 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:16:04 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 07:17:34 mega1` [n=mega@pool-023d9.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:20:50 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.155.52] has joined #lisp 07:21:33 spacebat_ [n=akhasha@124-171-106-104.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 07:23:41 -!- enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:25:39 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:34:17 -!- spacebat [n=akhasha@124-171-95-228.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:39 columbin [i=kvirc@gateway/tor/x-33a61a367b3576ef] has joined #lisp 07:37:36 pjb [n=chatzill@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:36 Good morning. 07:41:48 benny [n=benny@i577A10DA.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 07:46:23 trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 07:46:44 hello. 07:47:12 hello trebor_win 07:51:32 kiuma_ [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 07:52:16 haiwei1 [n=haiwei@221.219.3.85] has joined #lisp 07:53:06 why hello there 07:53:56 -!- kiuma_ is now known as kiuma 07:54:17 'lo lspers 07:55:06 -!- Draggor is now known as NewDraggor 07:55:34 -!- NewDraggor is now known as Draggor 07:55:51 spacebat [n=akhasha@124-171-105-231.dyn.iinet.net.au] has joined #lisp 08:03:36 why not? 08:09:31 -!- spacebat_ [n=akhasha@124-171-106-104.dyn.iinet.net.au] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:10:26 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:13:35 -!- spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:16:16 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 08:17:08 spiaggia [n=user@armadillo.labri.fr] has joined #lisp 08:20:31 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 08:27:50 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 08:29:48 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:35:10 -!- zu22 [n=ubuntu@unaffiliated/zu22] has left #lisp 08:37:18 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined 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#lisp 10:23:54 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:24:06 Hello. 10:25:21 -!- brill_ [n=chatzill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Client Quit] 10:26:17 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:26:22 morning 10:27:14 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 10:28:49 athos [n=philipp@p54B867D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:33:48 -!- hiroyuki_y [n=yamanaka@mfac.st.wakwak.ne.jp] has quit [Client Quit] 10:34:49 jgracin [n=jgracin@78-0-90-7.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 10:37:55 morning 10:38:27 Morning. 10:38:40 It's mid day here though. 10:41:16 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:41:59 obviously i still miss basic parts of lisp-understanding: how can i write a function (not a macro) which changes its parameters (who are /not/ lists)? (defun change-to-10 (a) (setf a 10)) surely doesn't work. please give me an enlightment-url/keyword/chapter 10:42:46 (not an instance of a class / structure either) 10:45:23 i tried things like symbol, symbol-name ... but still i do not this easy task working. 10:46:09 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 10:46:14 if you really want that, a macro will make your task easy. 10:46:25 trebor_win: you can't. what made you think that this is possible? Are you translating Pascal source code to Lisp? 10:47:13 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:47:40 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-123.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 10:47:52 i (think i) need to write a function which computes a lot of different results and i wanted to avoid the (multiple-value-bind ...) thing. so i thought of being destructive. 10:49:00 trebor_win: ok, you don't want to use a macro for that, in general. 10:49:00 s/being/becoming 10:50:35 i wanted to avoid the (m-v-b ...) because te results need to be stored in different structures, too. but i think the (setf (values ...) ...) might save me. 10:52:43 trebor_win: put the state that this function mutates into an object and pass/return that. 10:53:07 trebor_win: or act on special variables if there is only one global state. 10:56:57 srk [n=kramacha@122.166.8.140] has joined #lisp 10:57:09 i had this ideas in mind, too - as a workoaroung for me being not able to write a destructive functions for non-list/struct/instance-parameters. so i am sort of relieved, that this not too easy. 10:57:44 thanks for your answers H4ns & lichtblau 11:01:55 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 11:02:34 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 11:11:12 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:12:00 pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has joined #lisp 11:12:21 morn|eri [i=mornfall@219.250.81.152] has joined #lisp 11:13:54 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:14:05 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-123-084.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 11:19:07 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 11:20:44 Hey Ivan. 11:21:16 I still haven't done that beta release I mentioned, but would like to do it "real soon now". 11:25:37 lichtblau: Hi. I have two serious deadlines in the middle of November, after which I hope to continue working on plexippus and Xuriella, but if you need some help with that beta now, please remind me what's holding it back (as beta, not final release). 11:26:53 oh, nothing special. I just wanted to touch up cxml documentation a little before making all those releases, and it turned out that writing docstrings for cxml was more work than I expected it to be. 11:29:14 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:32:32 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 11:32:50 something wrong with lisppaste? just added a patch for closure-common http://paste.lisp.org/display/69046 11:34:30 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has left #lisp 11:34:54 Hi guys. 11:35:33 lichtblau: the above patch fixes an indentation-breaking problem in ystream 11:39:08 -!- morn|eri [i=mornfall@219.250.81.152] has quit ["the old ways are lost"] 11:39:30 thanks, checked in. (Didn't test it, but it looks like an obvious fix.) 11:42:30 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 11:47:05 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:49:00 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:50:17 chandler pasted "something wrong with lisppaste?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69047 11:50:26 ivan4th: no, seems to work perfectly 11:50:59 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:52:02 chandler: I think it's easy to mistake the paste.lisp.org frontpage for a form that pastes for #lisp, simply because of the domain name. The channel topic links to .../new/lisp, but that's easy to overlook. 11:53:41 lichtblau: seems like I made exactly this mistake... 11:54:26 ok :-) just wanted to make sure the connection to the IRC server hadn't gone and died on me 11:54:36 chandler: sorry for false alarm 11:55:51 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:03:02 style question: would you usually prefix names of class accessors with the class name, or not? e.g. (defclass thing () ((name :accessor thing-name))) vs. (defclass thing () ((name :accessor name))) 12:05:08 -!- haiwei1 [n=haiwei@221.219.3.85] has quit ["Leaving."] 12:05:31 -!- echo-area [n=user@cmdev1.test.cnz.alimama.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:07:46 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 12:08:05 Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 12:08:58 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-13-180.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 12:09:28 locklace: i would not 12:10:14 H4ns2 [n=Hans@p57BB985D.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:10:28 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB965A.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:10:30 -!- H4ns2 is now known as H4ns 12:11:06 antgreen [n=green@bas2-toronto06-1242511347.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 12:11:08 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 12:11:34 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 12:11:58 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 12:12:57 -!- dabd [n=dabd@85.139.96.48] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:15:01 varjag: ok, i think that makes more sense too 12:16:10 -!- pjb [n=chatzill@60.Red-80-34-44.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:19:58 jajcloz [n=jaj@12.191.171.60] has joined #lisp 12:20:18 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:20:45 cipher [n=cipher@inertia.acm.cs.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 12:20:49 krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-20-224.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 12:21:58 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:22:47 locklace: contrary to varjag's answer, the typical style is class-slot 12:23:09 locklace: if you want to do something like the latter, I'd suggest antifuchs's preferred style, which is SLOT-OF 12:23:35 not my preferred style, although it makes a lot of sense a lot of the time (: 12:23:41 hi, i loaded some files with (asdf:operate 'asdf:load-op :drakma) there was an error and i choose to continue. now when i repeated the command i can't get the files to recompile. is there a way to do that? 12:23:59 krumholt: what happens? 12:24:22 how does slot-of work? 12:24:32 locklace: i prefer no prefix or suffix. 12:24:38 Xach, well there was some error about request not compiling and now there is no (drakma:http-request function 12:24:58 krumholt: can you be more specific about the error? paste.lisp.org might help. 12:25:14 chandler: i can't say either style is "typical", but i haven't been much into lisp community last few years 12:25:19 athos_ [n=philipp@p54B858F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:37 The function DRAKMA:HTTP-REQUEST is undefined. 12:25:54 krumholt: you got that after your asdf:oos call? 12:25:54 it seems to me that if i have a bunch of classes that all have a "name" slot, say, then it's shorter and easier to have one generic function "name" that returns the name for any such object, instead of lots of separate longer-named generic functions thing1-name, thing2-name, ... 12:26:11 locklace: yes, it helps to think of them as participating in the "name" protocol 12:26:18 Xach, no when i try to call http-request 12:26:28 though once again I still prefer the NAME-OF style 12:26:29 krumholt: you should back up and fix the previous problem. 12:26:32 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:26:50 locklace: if they all have a name slot, perhaps it would be better to have them all inherit from one common superclass which defines that slot, too 12:26:57 locklace: i don't tend to think about classes & slots first, usually, but protocols and how classes help implement them. 12:27:03 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 12:27:15 Xach, yes thats what i can't do. if i asdf:oos again it just works with no problem 12:27:27 dabd [n=dabd@85.139.96.48] has joined #lisp 12:27:36 krumholt: try deleting the fasls, then, and retrying. 12:28:12 locklace: if a class can participate in a protocol as simply as using a slot accessor, that's pretty convenient, but i don't feel bad if it doesn't work that way. 12:28:33 something might have a "name" that is computed from other slots and implemented via a method. 12:28:38 chandler: ok, but if i have a bunch of classes and the only thing they have in common is a "name", then it seems a little silly to have them all inherit from a class "named-thing" that just has a name slot :) 12:29:03 krumholt: that might help you troubleshoot the original problem 12:29:07 (is it related to ssl?) 12:29:35 chandler: can you explain the "slot-of" style? 12:29:55 locklace: who said anything about having to inherit? 12:30:05 Xach, thats what i want to do. My question is. is there a way to get asdf to ignore the old fasl files and create new ones? 12:30:20 locklace: it makes it a little more obvious that the function is an accessor, e.g. (name-of my-named-thing) instead of (name my-named-thing) 12:30:22 Xach: is there an overview of this protocol way of looking at things somewhere? 12:30:27 cmm: I suggested it 12:30:32 cmm: chandler did ;) 12:30:33 oh 12:30:36 sorry! 12:30:54 locklace: hmm, i'm not sure. one big example is the CLOS object creation and initialization protocol. 12:31:24 chandler: oh i see, that's not a bad idea 12:31:50 Didn't Krystof write a paper on protocols in CLOS? Or is my memory playing tricks on me again 12:32:21 It doesn't ring a bell. 12:32:25 Hm. 12:32:27 but then, he's written so much! 12:32:48 locklace: comp.lang.lisp has some articles about protocol style. 12:32:53 I can't find it either, so I'm inclined to believe I misremembered something he was talking about for something he wrote a paper about. 12:33:36 Xach: ok cool, i'll have a search. also if it can be summarised easily, feel free to do so ;) 12:33:41 locklace: the choice to use a mixin for named things versus putting the slot definition everywhere is just a stylistic one, and like writing in natural language there are no rules that can't be overriden by the context of the particular situation 12:34:39 chandler: yep, just looking for hints on what other folks tend to find useful 12:34:56 locklace: generally, I prefer using CLASSNAME-SLOTNAME style for my accessors, and putting common slots into mixins, so that it becomes clear which accessors should only work on an object of given type and which are generic. 12:35:03 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 12:35:15 locklace: well, it's a GF-centric way of thinking. it's about coming up with the operations you want to do, and then figuring out how they are implemented, which isn't always directly with classes and slots. 12:35:35 classes are very useful participants in implementing protocols, but not the main focus 12:35:45 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:35:55 If you're intending to access the name slot in multiple different types of objects, then I would put it in a common mixin, because it does indicate that something is common between the classes - namely, that they are all viewed generically as something posessing a name 12:36:03 chandler: problem i run into with that style is sometimes class names get long, and it's sort of tedious to have lots of my-really-really-really-long-class-name accesses all over the place :) 12:36:27 Well, I solve that problem by typing fast and using SLIME to expand abbreviations wherever possible :-) 12:36:48 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-37.kosnet.ru] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:36:50 hehe 12:37:10 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:37:31 locklace: M-/ is also useful. 12:38:06 So, even if you do name the accessor NAME-OF, I'd still put the slot definition in a NAMED-OBJECT-MIXIN just to indicate to the reader that this object will be viewed as participating in the conceptual named-object protocol. 12:38:16 Xach: ok, i think i have a handle on thinking of things in GF terms, CLOS prompts one strongly in that direction anyway ;) was just wondering whether the "protocol" idea involves something new 12:39:17 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:39:24 chandler: ok, i guess that's not too bad of an approach, and becomes more attractive as soon as things get more involved than "name" 12:40:13 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:40:24 I think chandler overstates "typical" in the classname-slotname style. 12:40:36 I don't think many people use it. 12:41:40 That's very possible! 12:42:00 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-37.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 12:42:15 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 12:42:16 I mean, even in proportion to the few people who use lisp... 12:44:10 spiaggia: yeah, emacs has all kinds of abbrev help, but typing is only part of the problem; having lots of really-really-really-really-long-names for simple operations is hard to read and makes formatting a pain 12:44:24 it has the weighty authority of being in the standard. Where is your -of suffix 12:45:40 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2FA5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:46:33 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 12:47:02 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:47:07 *Xach* scratches head 12:47:18 dlowe: class-of? 12:47:21 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B867D0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:51:17 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:51:52 capitancuernos [n=chatzill@ceduroam3.us.es] has joined #lisp 12:52:14 Xach: touché 12:52:20 ¿hola? ¿alguien sabe hablar en español? 12:52:49 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:52:58 capitancuernos: this is an english language channel 12:53:18 pues hello 12:53:36 capitancuernos: hablamos sólo Inglés aquí 12:53:48 ok 12:53:54 -!- dabd [n=dabd@85.139.96.48] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:54:50 darned linguistic imperialism! (hmm, deja vu) 12:55:28 Hey. How about danish? Taler noget dansk? 12:55:47 I stand corrected :p 12:55:51 vi inte snakker dansk 12:56:18 relaxen und vatch das blinkenlites 12:56:30 Xach: Great, we're the tower of Babel. 12:56:56 and the library of alexandria 12:57:15       12:57:24 now we really are the tower of Babel 12:57:41 do you know any reserved word "res" ? 12:57:54 Pala-Wan: Yeah. My client encoding is having serious problems. 12:58:03 Have you ever seen email signatures that are the output of an obfuscated code in perl/ruby/python/cl? Where can i find a script generator using one of these algorithms (i want to give in input the string required as output)? 12:58:17 hugopt [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 12:58:34 -!- hugopt is now known as hugo 12:58:44 dabd [n=dabd@85.139.96.48] has joined #lisp 12:59:22 brill: it's UTF-8, and if you're getting garbage even if using utf8, then you're font does not have the characters I've used 12:59:39 maybe he uses vim ;) 13:00:03 capitancuernos: that is not a standard symbol in common lisp 13:00:04 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 13:00:14 Pala-Wan: Yeah. My system font is really not up to the task. 13:00:51 thanks Xach 13:01:20 and do you know any very very very basic manual of lisp? mi a starter and got lost with that language 13:01:30 i'm* 13:01:40 practical common lisp 13:01:47 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-79-183-152-178.red.bezeqint.net] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 13:01:56 -!- dabd [n=dabd@85.139.96.48] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:02:00 minion: tell capitancuernos about pcl 13:02:19 brill: it was hiragana by the way, "watashi ha benkyou suru n da" 13:02:42 capitancuernos: if you need a more quick than deep info: successful lisp "how to understand and use common lisp" by d.b. lamkins (google for it). 13:04:01 minion? minion? 13:04:03 capitancuernos: please look at pcl: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 13:05:13 dabd [n=dabd@85.139.96.48] has joined #lisp 13:05:38 thanks 13:05:42 i will see it 13:05:44 Pala-Wan: I got a week of japanese language tutoring once. Before I gave up. It was like getting back into kindergarden. 13:05:49 bye 13:05:59 Pala-Wan: Lisp is easier. :-) 13:06:01 brill: lol 13:06:11 sure, I hate kanji 13:06:21 -!- capitancuernos [n=chatzill@ceduroam3.us.es] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092510]"] 13:06:33 hi i am trying to compile usocket. and i get the following error erred while invoking # on 13:06:33 # 13:06:33 [Condition of type ASDF:COMPILE-FAILED] is there a way to get a better error description? 13:06:36 -!- db48x [n=db48x@cl-12.dal-01.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:06:48 krumholt: it should be in the compliation output 13:07:01 krumholt: what implementation are you using? 13:07:13 Xach, Sbcl 13:07:14 Pala-Wan: Yeah. I got the kanji dictionary. 13:07:24 krumholt: it will be in the compilation output under WARNING: or ERROR: or similar 13:07:37 brill: hard copy? 13:07:50 Pala-Wan: Yes. Hard book. 13:08:20 brill: bet it's hell to find anything xD 13:08:31 Pala-Wan: The japanese embassey sells 'em. 13:08:41 hmm 13:08:48 Pala-Wan: And I can't really use it. 13:08:59 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:18 Pala-Wan: It's one of those things I would like to learn given ample time. 13:09:36 I just gave up kanji, hiragana is like the macroexpanded kanji 13:09:50 much more simple 13:10:03 Pala-Wan: that was an admirable effort to drag the discussion back on topic 13:10:17 Xach: :) 13:10:20 Pala-Wan: I like the way hiragana gets compressed into kanji. Kinda like lisp expressions getting debugged. 13:10:47 pjb [n=chatzill@212.145.149.100] has joined #lisp 13:10:47 Xach: How's that for getting back to lisp. 13:11:07 *Xach* claps quietly 13:11:48 brill: I really don't like kanji, it's like using perl 13:12:01 brill: it can get really hairy 13:12:08 *really* 13:12:26 writing it is a pain too 13:12:36 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 13:12:51 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:13:03 *Xach* wrote a very thin, incomplete vecto-to-pdf layer 13:13:07 Pala-Wan: I can imagine. I made watashi wa Pala-Wan des? 13:13:28 http://wigflip.com/signbot now generates both PNGs and printable pdfs with almost the same code. 13:13:35 oops 13:13:40 http://wigflip.com/easystreet rather 13:13:41 brill: just writing watashi in kanji takes like 10 seconds 13:13:56 Pala-Wan: lol 13:14:12 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.8] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:14:31 G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has joined #lisp 13:14:56 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 13:15:13 -!- G0SUB [n=ghoseb@ubuntu/member/gosub] has quit [Client Quit] 13:18:26 oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:34 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@bzq-84-108-12-78.cablep.bezeqint.net] has quit [Client Quit] 13:21:59 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 13:22:54 chandler: I did once give a talk about protocol-oriented programming. I don't think it was a very good talk 13:27:18 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:28:37 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:29:06 soverton [n=user@75.145.221.229] has joined #lisp 13:29:24 krumholt pasted "problem compiling usocket" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69051 13:29:51 krumholt: does it have that problem if you restart lisp and try again? 13:30:04 i try 13:30:46 neurogeek_ [n=neurogee@201.208.64.119] has joined #lisp 13:32:17 Xach, no the problem is gone when i restart lisp but why? 13:33:09 krumholt: a few things in sbcl are working together to foil you 13:36:28 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:37:13 -!- sellout [n=greg@12.191.171.51] has quit [] 13:39:16 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:41:15 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.4] has joined #lisp 13:43:37 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 13:44:47 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:52:00 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:52:51 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 13:56:27 krumholt: first, a warning will cause an asdf compilation failure 13:56:44 krumholt: second, a DEFPACKAGE that varies from the current known state of the package will cause a warning 13:57:10 the second situation can occur if the library modifies its package state via calls to EXPORT and similar things that aren't reflected in the DEFPACKAGE 13:59:11 Xach, not 100% understandig, but thats not a problem. i think i get the idea. thanks 14:01:50 -!- dabd [n=dabd@85.139.96.48] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 14:02:25 also, SBCL is pretty warning-happy. You wouldn't even gotten that warning with, say, allegro. 14:02:59 which can be a good thing and a bad thing (: 14:04:36 sbcl is free, allegro is not. i can;t afford an allegro license 14:05:17 overall, it's probably better that it (sbcl) does warn over this sort of thing 14:05:27 -!- dabr [n=dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:05:28 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:06:20 I prefer things that don't try to DWIM if presented with an explicitly undefined situation 14:06:20 i hope the style warning for unnecessary :: goes in 14:06:31 Xach: mmh (: 14:06:35 hee hee 14:06:53 luckily, no style warning for unnecessary (: yet 14:07:07 (keywords can be fbound, har har) 14:07:32 ah, Lisp humor. 14:10:02 -!- neurogeek_ [n=neurogee@201.208.64.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:10:07 *Xach* also wants a warning for ::foo 14:10:54 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 14:11:25 neurogeek_ [n=neurogee@201.208.73.206] has joined #lisp 14:11:25 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.128.59] has joined #lisp 14:12:43 enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:39 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:15:55 is there any implementation in which keywords are _not_ actually symbols "under the hood"? 14:17:32 *Xach* has trouble envisioning what that would really mean 14:17:52 cmm: keywords have symbol as a supertype (: 14:18:14 you probably could make objects that aren't symbols, but they'd have to behave like symbols anyway 14:18:31 well, since keywords don't have to be [f]bindable or have property lists, they can in theory be much lighter than regular symbols 14:18:45 they don't? 14:18:56 Xof: no idea, that's why I ask 14:19:13 you didn't ask, you said that they don't have to be fbindable or have property lists 14:19:24 bindable, no (become constant variables)... fbindable, most definitely. 14:19:44 not clear, actually: whether the restrictions in CLHS 11.1.2.1.2.1.2.1.2.1.2 apply 14:19:44 oh. you live, you learn 14:19:58 gz_ [n=gz@209-6-18-72.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 14:20:02 the bananananananana chapter 14:20:16 yeah. How's becoming a millionaire, antifuchs? 14:20:23 slow going 14:20:35 right now, thinking of feasting on a lawyer 14:20:49 (not splittist!) 14:20:57 eek 14:21:14 it would solve a few problems at once (: 14:21:19 sounds expensive 14:21:23 UnwashedMeme [n=nathan@216.155.97.1] has joined #lisp 14:21:29 Xach: is that a joke about style warnings for ::? 14:21:46 *rsynnott* hopes so 14:21:54 quite enough pointless style-warnings as its 14:21:57 *is 14:22:44 but! we've finally moved in, and there's tea and stuff. want to come over one of these days, Xof? 14:22:51 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:22:52 sure. Where are you? 14:23:00 rsynnott: krystof made a patch and i ran it for some time. 14:23:13 rsynnott: sadly, i think its chances for final commit are slim 14:23:40 Xof: next to Guy's Hospital; SE1 1YF 14:24:30 Xach: I can always push it through if you found it useful 14:24:48 er. how do I look things up in clhs by chapter number? 14:24:51 clhs 11.1.2.1.2 14:24:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/11_abab.htm 14:24:53 like that 14:24:56 cmm: http://l1sp.org/cl/11 14:25:02 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 14:25:12 or http://l1sp.org/cl/11.1.2.1.2 14:25:16 willb [n=wibenton@wireless96.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:25:16 ah, thank you 14:25:31 antifuchs: oh, cool. what are your hours like? 14:25:35 actually, this is more like the "Banan" chapter 14:25:50 Xof: flexible; evenings generally work well. 14:26:06 heh. Evenings are usually completely hopeless for me 14:26:07 say, after 17:00 (: 14:26:35 or early afternoons, I'm working all the time anyway (: 14:26:40 A definition of a macro has to be appear before using it, but this is not true for functions. Is this correct?? 14:27:08 (except when I'm not working, and it doesn't matter when that is) (: 14:27:20 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 14:28:02 tomoyuki28jp: that is true about functions. 14:28:15 tomoyuki28jp: well, sort of. 14:28:25 tomoyuki28jp: it depends on what you mean by "use" 14:28:37 tomoyuki28jp: you can't call a function you don't define! 14:28:40 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E476A1.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 14:29:00 you can put it in another function definition, though, and it won't be an error unless you try to call it. 14:29:07 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 14:29:35 catnap [n=terimpil@kosh.hut.fi] has joined #lisp 14:29:52 Xach: I mean the order like (defmacro mac ...) (mac ...) or (mac ...) (defmacro mac ...). 14:29:58 I'm looking for a Lisp IDE for windows xp 14:30:08 I had it before on my computer, but then I had to reinstall windows 14:30:25 it's just that I don't remember what the name of that IDE was 14:30:27 catnap: allegro cl and lispworks have windows IDEs. 14:30:43 I've tried them already - they don't look familiar 14:30:45 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:30:56 kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:31:06 the IDE had some kind of plot in the desktop icon 14:31:07 catnap: emacs and slime 14:31:15 catnap: i don't think corman lisp has an ide, but i coudl be wrong. 14:31:32 I tried to download corman, but the server failed 14:31:34 locklace: doesn't seem likely that someone would forget they were using emacs 14:31:55 Xach: Corman does have an IDE of sorts 14:31:59 Xach: I think I got a compile error because a definition of macro appear after using it (it was in the same file though), and as far as I remember, the book "On Lisp" says the things like that, but I wasn't sure. 14:32:03 maybe he had a sharp knock on the head :) 14:32:22 locklace is trying to be helpfull - I apreciate that 14:32:43 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.128.59] has quit [Excess Flood] 14:33:26 it seems weird that the IDE is so difficult to find 14:33:35 I don't remember makin any effor last time 14:33:36 catnap: well, there are not many choices. 14:33:45 catnap: you could also have a look at http://cliki.net/IDE 14:33:52 catnap: if it isn't one of those three, i think it might not be a Common Lisp IDE. 14:34:08 maybe it was something like newlisp. 14:34:08 catnap: If you can't remember which one it was, you can't be that invested in it, right? 14:34:10 Xach: I thought about that too 14:34:16 -!- agep98712 [n=none@p54ABD7CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:34:18 -!- lnostdal [n=lnostdal@149-36-67.oke2-bras5.adsl.tele2.no] has quit ["crap"] 14:34:35 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.128.59] has joined #lisp 14:34:37 ahaas: on the contrary - this lisp had a good manual 14:34:49 that doesn't narrow it down much. 14:34:51 and it was very easy to draw plots with it 14:35:21 catnap: CUSP, perhaps? 14:35:27 (that's just an IDE, not a lisp) 14:35:35 catnap: not autolisp? :) 14:35:36 I will try that one 14:35:37 autocad? 14:35:45 heh 14:36:56 cusp looks nice 14:37:10 I will give it a try altought I doubt it's the one that I had previously 14:38:17 eclipse is by far my favorite editor - it indetifies lines so smartly 14:38:36 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:38:43 I mean, if you make a new blok that contains some previous code, that previous code will be indentified 14:38:54 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 14:39:19 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@78-0-90-7.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:41:13 you mean indented, and emacs/slime can do that, too. (although it has "some" room for improvement... :) 14:42:05 some times when I try to put a space to the code, emacs don't let me do that 14:42:08 hmm. when i call slime-reindent-defun it fails with 'Symbol's value as variable is void: major" 14:42:17 it formats the code all by it self 14:42:17 locklace: that was fixed in very recent cvs, i think. 14:42:35 programer should also have some control over what the code looks like 14:42:52 Xach: ok thanks, will get latest 14:42:56 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 14:43:15 catnap: Everything with Emacs is customizable by the user. You can disable any autoformatting if you like. 14:43:33 indentation rules should really be mandated by language specifications. just think about the amount of pointless style discussions it would eliminate 14:43:42 eliminate? 14:43:49 it would shove them into the specification committee 14:44:05 *Xach* tries to remember the law of conservation of misery 14:44:38 Xach: standard bodies are slow enough for that to be fine by me 14:44:43 though it is closer to the thermodynamics law 14:45:15 catnap: emacs is simply doing what it thinks best :) 14:45:38 ... and it usually knows better than you :) 14:46:15 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:40 cusp has a slightly broken version of the same behaviour 14:47:56 I'm not saying that the feature is harmfull, but it just gives me a contained feeling 14:47:57 Xach: it's called the "Law of Limited Good" 14:48:06 other editors make me feel more free 14:48:49 dalton [n=id@200.204.237.188] has joined #lisp 14:49:00 That's the first time I've ever heard Emacs declared too restrictive. 14:49:13 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:49:22 *rsynnott* likes emacs's forceful handling of indentation 14:49:37 you should feel free to excercise your freedom as long as the readers of your code feel free to punch you if they don't like your indentation 14:49:50 it often points out where you've made a sexp mistake/thinko 14:49:56 that's freedom for adults! 14:50:10 milanj [n=milan@77.46.169.122] has joined #lisp 14:50:12 but suppose that you have already a couple of hunder lines of code 14:50:29 then emacs does not indent the code similarly 14:50:37 and that results in ugly code 14:50:42 you can configure it to :p 14:50:52 reformat file(s) 14:50:53 emacs won't reindent existing text, unless you explicitly tell it to 14:50:53 emacs will happily re-indent it for you, to the CORRECT way :) 14:51:15 ok - I just don't know all the features yet 14:51:23 (though I must say I find its python behaviour slightly annoying) 14:51:30 catnap: indentation style in Lisp is rather different from that in other languages: We really have only one style in Lisp we all agree on, so there's nothing to choose from. 14:51:31 emacs propably takes some learning to be effective 14:51:33 not sure anyone actually does know them all 14:52:01 rme [n=rme@pool-68-238-4-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 14:52:09 it's like someone knowing all the programs available for windows 14:52:36 catnap: Hence our recommendation to use it for Lisp. -- I don't think anyone would advocate Emacs for other languages here (because even if they'd like to, it'd be off topic). 14:53:06 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.12.222] has joined #lisp 14:53:25 *dcrawford* used emacs when writing c++ on solaris & linux 14:53:39 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C4B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:53:57 *Xach* casts out the offtopic dcrawford 14:55:05 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 14:56:11 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:15 -!- srk [n=kramacha@122.166.8.140] has quit [] 14:58:22 some people praise Python, but I like Lisp better 14:58:27 it has powerfull macros 14:58:38 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E43F1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:59:03 catnap: You are preaching to the choir. 15:02:12 some times people ask me, why I think Lisp is the number one language 15:02:34 after all, it's a functional language and not descriptive 15:02:45 I always answer that it's because of macros 15:03:06 Functional? Maybe imperatively functional 15:03:06 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:03:20 catnap: Lisp is a general-purpose multi-paradigm language. 15:03:24 qbg: yes - I ment imperative 15:03:30 It's time once again to play "Troll? Not good with English? Or BOTH?" 15:03:31 salex [n=user@ardbeg.math.uwaterloo.ca] has joined #lisp 15:03:34 sigh, people need to stop saying that lisp is Functional 15:03:47 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 15:03:48 better than saying it's dysfunctional ;) 15:03:50 it has functional aspects ;) 15:04:09 salex: that's what the preface to Higher Order Perl says 15:04:09 You can take my SETF from my cold, dead hands 15:04:25 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 15:05:02 qbg: SETF could be done functionally with situation calculus 15:05:44 given that things like tail recursion optimisation aren't even guaranteed, calling it functional is a serious stretch 15:06:08 grc [n=user@217.33.170.226] has joined #lisp 15:06:55 Well, it is not dysfunctional. 15:07:20 blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:47 dabd [n=dabd@85.139.96.48] has joined #lisp 15:07:53 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:09:32 rsynnott: I ment imperative, don't get me wrong on purpose - the idea was that Lisp is not like HTML, which is descriptive 15:09:44 I've been building xml in elisp using (format "%s" bar) where bar is a variable passed in to my function 15:10:17 -!- sykopomp [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:10:28 catnap: It is hard to understand you when you don't use established terminology. 15:10:28 sykopomp [n=sykopomp@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:10:31 I then decided that using elisp structs (foo bar) and converyting thenm to xml was a nicer idea 15:10:59 But I can't find a simple way of making the bar bit variable comepared with format and %s 15:11:04 any pointers? 15:11:16 grc: yes, my pointer is to #emacs 15:11:24 fair enough 15:11:32 this channel is mostly about Common Lisp 15:12:14 you may also find there a pointer or two to a library that may help you generate XML from elisp 15:12:18 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@p54B858F2.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:12:58 i am using format to write to a file it works for some files and then i get an error in FORMAT: no more arguments. what could cause this error? 15:13:32 -!- Wizard_ [n=wizard@94.50.184.107] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:13:39 krumholt: too few arguments for the control string 15:13:39 krumholt: probably that your control string says that more arguments are needed than what you supplied. 15:13:54 krumholt: as a simple example, (format stream "~A") 15:14:00 that's too simple, though, since sbcl will catch it at compile time 15:14:23 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 15:14:29 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E43F1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 15:14:36 Xach: it'll complain about it, but I think it'll compile it anyway 15:14:52 (or the format string could be produced at runtime 15:15:46 using FORMAT where WRITE-STRING was intended can cause that problem, too 15:15:46 -!- dalton [n=id@200.204.237.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:15:52 Xach, a i get it. thx i don't use a control string but the strings i am printing are from files. so if they have a ~A in them format will not like it. can i get format to ignore all format strings? 15:16:05 clhs WRITE-STRING 15:16:05 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_wr_stg.htm 15:16:21 chandler: wow, that is some psychic debugging right there. 15:16:34 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-103-129.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:16:36 krumholt: you *are* using a control string. 15:16:59 krumholt: chandler's suggestion is a good one. another option is (format stream "~A" line) instead of (format stream line) 15:17:19 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E43F1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:17:29 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E43F1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:17:30 Wizard_ [n=wizard@94.50.1.245] has joined #lisp 15:17:37 thx 15:19:35 I remember now 15:19:44 it was Lisp Stats 15:20:32 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E43F1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:21:52 -!- Drakeson [n=user@bas3-toronto02-1279545961.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:22:48 -!- jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:23:04 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:24:49 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 15:25:26 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:25:28 this is quite interesting: http://blo.udoidio.info/2008/10/out-of-memory-sad-case.html 15:25:36 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [No route to host] 15:25:37 especially in that there's an experimental sbcl fix 15:25:52 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:26:24 surely all planet lisp readers saw that hours ago 15:26:52 ah, oops, that's where I found it, I suppose :) 15:27:27 probably some people here aren't planet lisp readers, though. the spies and trolls, for example. 15:27:38 spies? :P 15:30:03 and other nefarious types, yes. 15:30:11 clearly 15:30:14 ;) 15:30:39 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-215.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:31:07 with lisp stat you can plot in no time 15:31:43 this is usefull, because I have a course where I need to draw plots, and the use of matlab is strictly forbiden 15:32:07 *rsynnott* somehow finds the strict matlab ban hilarious 15:32:22 (wow, xlisp) 15:32:44 catnap: use maxima. 15:32:48 what is wrong with xlisp 15:32:59 It's not common. 15:33:49 ah, and autolisp is apparently based on it :) 15:34:16 why does it always have to be common lisp? 15:35:03 catnap: elisp is a fine lisp, too. #emacs ftw 15:35:22 these plots seem to have a severe problem 15:35:47 they are only visible in screen, but it's not possible to save them as a picture 15:35:47 (though xlisp-stat seems to be generally well-regarded software) 15:35:53 *attila_lendvai* doesn't think that elisp is a fine lisp 15:36:11 catnap: I don't think you'll be able to get help with that here. 15:36:21 catnap: maxima uses gnuplot, so it's trivial to generate files. 15:36:44 yes. there is also, iirc `quail' but it's not free software i think 15:36:50 (for stats and plotting i mean) 15:37:06 attila_lendvai: erm. i guess you understand that my remark was a failed attempt to get the guy to move somewhere else. 15:38:20 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:39:58 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@12.191.171.60] has quit [] 15:40:34 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 15:44:13 It's not common. // such ambiguity. 15:44:15 *attila_lendvai* was too slow to get that 15:44:55 Just a pun ;-) 15:45:50 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:46:54 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:41 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:47:57 heh, oh, that was intentional? 15:48:22 -!- plage [n=user@laptop-147-210-128-154.labri.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:50:04 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-58.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:52:43 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-58.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 15:53:15 duck1123 [n=duck@zenjohost.com] has joined #lisp 15:55:37 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:56:32 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-58.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 15:57:27 -!- cipher [n=cipher@inertia.acm.cs.rpi.edu] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:57:27 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-123.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:57:27 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-131-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:57:27 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host243.190-137-180.telecom.net.ar] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:57:27 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:57:27 -!- xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:57:27 -!- agemo [n=jovdmeer@igwe16.vub.ac.be] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:57:27 -!- bedlam [i=bedlam@case.rit.edu] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:57:27 -!- thedonvaughn [i=jvaughn@unaffiliated/printk] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:57:27 -!- erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:57:27 -!- minion [n=minion@208.72.159.207] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:57:27 -!- joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:57:27 -!- manveru [n=manveru@p4158-ipbf1507marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:57:27 -!- Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-225-78.bos.east.verizon.net] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:57:27 -!- e271 [i=[1Xmizzn@panix3.panix.com] has quit [kornbluth.freenode.net irc.freenode.net] 15:57:51 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-50-169.man.east.verizon.net] has quit ["There are times I really hate Linux, and this is one of them."] 15:58:03 of course. 15:58:56 -!- wchogg_ [n=wchogg@h216-165-145-181.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:59:03 I tried that cusp also 15:59:28 there's a problem - this says Package HELLOLISP is not loaded 16:00:54 cipher [n=cipher@inertia.acm.cs.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 16:00:54 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-123.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 16:00:54 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-131-174.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:54 Tordek [n=tordek@host243.190-137-180.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 16:00:54 hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:54 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 16:00:54 agemo [n=jovdmeer@igwe16.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 16:00:54 bedlam [i=bedlam@case.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 16:00:54 thedonvaughn [i=jvaughn@unaffiliated/printk] has joined #lisp 16:00:54 erg [n=erg@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 16:00:54 minion [n=minion@208.72.159.207] has joined #lisp 16:00:54 joshe [n=aurum@opal.elsasser.org] has joined #lisp 16:00:54 Riastradh [n=rias@pool-141-154-225-78.bos.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 16:00:54 manveru [n=manveru@p4158-ipbf1507marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:00:54 e271 [i=[1Xmizzn@panix3.panix.com] has joined #lisp 16:03:18 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811120.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:03:24 what is the lisp command to import package? 16:03:33 -!- grc [n=user@217.33.170.226] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:04:32 catnap: "import" and "package" mean very specific things in common lisp. 16:05:03 ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has joined #lisp 16:05:23 oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:05:53 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.5.12.222] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:06:02 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Client Quit] 16:06:58 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 16:07:26 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:07:51 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 16:11:08 the problem is that my function definitions don't seem to be visible in repl-loop 16:11:17 hmm, is there a hacker's delightful way to clear the leftmost 1 bit in an integer? 16:11:22 *Xach* is drawing a blank 16:11:50 XOR with 100000...? 16:12:07 rsynnott: I think the problem is with the "..." 16:12:26 fill in zeros based on size of integer :) 16:12:35 will a log10 help? 16:12:46 rsynnott: I think Xach means the leftmost bit that happens to be on. 16:12:48 (logand x (lognot (ash -1 (integer-length x)))) 16:12:49 (.. or log2) 16:12:50 ah 16:13:16 (Fixing any lurking off-by-one errors is left as an exercise for the reader.) 16:14:20 the right most bit goes with (a&(a-1)), but that is a bit different 16:14:36 the rightmost bit is pretty easy to clear! 16:14:50 thanks 16:14:50 decf 16:14:55 *dcrawford* no 16:14:57 heh 16:15:14 oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-187-13.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:15:19 (logxor x (ash 1 (integer-length x))) would also work, of course. 16:15:23 jfm3 [n=user@165.230.132.126] has joined #lisp 16:15:43 (if fenceposts are leaving me alone today) 16:15:46 use msb to find the bit 16:15:56 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:16:05 and then 1< That's what INTEGER-LENGTH does, catnap. 16:17:06 good - c language does not have msb 16:17:17 if you want it, you need to use assembly 16:17:21 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:18:13 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-58.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has quit [] 16:18:20 -!- soverton [n=user@75.145.221.229] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:19:55 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:19:56 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:21:36 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 16:21:50 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-58.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 16:24:16 sely_ [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:25:06 -!- mega1` [n=mega@pool-023d9.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:25:26 does some one use cusp here? 16:25:40 Jasko uses cusp 16:26:34 Jasko: this says package is not loaded and shows error - the file doen't even compile - do you know what is wrong? 16:26:56 current package reads COMMON-LISP-USER 16:27:06 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:28:47 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 16:29:54 Fare [n=Fare@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 16:30:11 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 16:31:08 -!- duck1123 [n=duck@zenjohost.com] has left #lisp 16:31:42 xaav [n=none@p54ABD7CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:32:37 -!- ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:33:04 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 16:33:16 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-61-70.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 16:34:04 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:34:28 wchogg [n=wchogg@h69-130-55-79.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:46 -!- rread [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:36:25 ths__ [n=ths@p549AD53F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:37:00 mcspiff [n=user@DC106.WPA.Dal.Ca] has joined #lisp 16:37:53 If someone was learning CL, and was looking for some info on streams, where would be a good place to start? 16:38:17 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:39:31 mcspiff: what kind of stuff do you want to know? 16:40:05 well, ive just started using trivial-http for grabbing some stuff off the interwebs 16:40:21 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.8] has joined #lisp 16:40:32 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 16:40:34 There's some stuff in here: http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/files-and-file-io.html 16:40:53 -!- xaav [n=none@p54ABD7CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 16:41:32 mcspiff: and general stream basics in CLtL2, http://www.cs.cmu.edu/Groups/AI/html/cltl/clm/node182.html#SECTION002500000000000000000 16:41:34 that looks exactly like what i want 16:41:36 thanks 16:41:58 You may also want to look at the flexi-stream library. 16:42:29 Riastradh: off by one on the integer length ;) 16:43:50 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 16:44:35 mozzyb [n=mozzyb@248.80-203-57.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 16:45:47 -!- jfm3 [n=user@165.230.132.126] has left #lisp 16:46:47 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:47:18 pkhuong, see, I knew the fenceposts were after me. 16:48:14 -!- ushdf [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 16:48:42 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AE91D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:49:40 they always are. sneaky buggers. 16:52:21 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:52:34 -!- mcspiff [n=user@DC106.WPA.Dal.Ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:52:52 ta 16:52:55 sorry 16:53:10 -!- ths__ is now known as ths 16:53:23 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:54:40 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 16:55:31 oudeis_ [n=oudeis@CBL217-132-242-125.bb.netvision.net.il] has joined #lisp 16:56:36 -!- catnap [n=terimpil@kosh.hut.fi] has quit ["leaving"] 16:58:54 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 17:00:04 mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-081-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:00:13 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@62.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 17:03:14 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:04:25 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 17:04:40 -!- creddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:08 oudeis__ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has joined #lisp 17:05:16 younder [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 17:06:02 reaver___ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 17:07:49 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 17:09:11 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:09:29 -!- oudeis [n=oudeis@89-139-187-13.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:48 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2657d77cba15a209] has joined #lisp 17:12:54 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-37-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:13:36 -!- oudeis_ [n=oudeis@CBL217-132-242-125.bb.netvision.net.il] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:15:18 -!- neurogeek_ [n=neurogee@201.208.73.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:17:24 sykopomp|class [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:21:54 vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:23:37 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 17:26:47 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 17:28:05 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:29:22 could someone give me a hint/url/keyword-for-google to test whether a macro exists in actual package (like (find-macro ""))? 17:29:48 apropos? 17:30:05 also, I think you mean "current", not "actual" 17:30:21 yes. 17:30:31 silly cognates :) 17:30:33 you're killing me with simplicity ;) 17:30:43 (was apropos) 17:30:44 clhs macro-function 17:30:45 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_macro_.htm 17:31:54 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-61-70.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:32:52 lichtblau: thanks, that is it 17:33:50 josemanuel [n=josemanu@130.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 17:35:05 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:36:47 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:36:48 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:37:41 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:38:07 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:38:07 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 17:38:20 -!- wchogg [n=wchogg@h69-130-55-79.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has left #lisp 17:39:38 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:43 Hum. So starting with sbcl 1.0.21.24, I can save runtime options 17:40:53 but how do I bypass toplevel options? 17:41:01 Fare: use a different toplevel function 17:41:04 Fare: that option is pretty old 17:41:34 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.128.59] has left #lisp 17:41:37 *Fare* tries to wrap his mind around cl-launch again to add this feature 17:41:49 (together with a bugfix for MacOS X support) 17:42:08 which bug? 17:42:10 apparently /bin/sh in MacOS X doesn't support echo -n 17:42:22 at least in some versions of MacOS X 17:42:53 use printf 17:42:55 it's much more portable 17:42:59 yup, what I did 17:43:22 I'm surprised that none of the 8 shells I tried under Linux failed me 17:43:48 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:44:17 btw, printf has "interesting" behavior when you supply more arguments than format parameters... 17:45:14 Is printf a bash thing or a Bourne shell thing? 17:45:18 whoa, cl-launch is pure evil. 17:45:25 Fare: omg, I can't believe it does that 17:45:38 *dlowe* feels the horror. 17:45:45 foom: one can tell I was sitting next to you most of the time that I wrote it. 17:46:01 heh. 17:46:18 That's pretty funny. I wonder if that was intended as a "feature" 17:46:29 Fare: huh. 17:47:16 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 17:47:50 Heh, more transcriptionist fun: "had a reputation at BBN" comes out "had a reputation at Muy Bien" 17:47:55 what's currently annoying me about OS X is the way environments change when you run things from a shell or from /Applications or whatever 17:47:58 is there a way to detect the SBCL version with some magic #+ ? 17:48:04 Fare: what's it do? 17:48:18 like allegro has some #+(version> 5.5) or some such 17:48:18 re: printf. odd 17:48:24 Fare: you could possibly tell by features? 17:48:35 -!- dabd [n=dabd@85.139.96.48] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 17:48:39 is there a feature for :save-runtime-options ? 17:48:42 REPLeffect [n=REPLeffe@69.54.115.254] has joined #lisp 17:48:55 I suppose I can just let it fail if it doesn't have that keyword 17:49:52 posix printf 17:49:52 http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xsh/printf.html 17:50:06 hm 17:50:32 http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xcu/printf.html 17:50:40 too bad it doesn't print random garbage from memory if you provide too few options. 17:50:42 gigamonkey: printf(1) is standardized. 17:52:04 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 17:52:44 dabd [n=dabd@85.139.96.48] has joined #lisp 17:52:58 kreuter: But as part of what? A Posix compliant implementation of /bin/sh, I guess? 17:54:35 I don't see why printf would have to be a builtin. 17:54:37 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:38 gigamonkey: hardly anything is part of /bin/sh 17:54:42 hum. Now I have to either add a sbcl-version-testing conditional to cl-launch's self-test suite, or hardwire sbcl standalone-executable as supported... 17:54:47 gigamonkey: POSIX doesn't say where commands have to exist 17:54:55 kreuter: I guess it just happens to be on my box. 17:54:59 foom: that makes sense. 17:55:00 gigamonkey: just that they do exist. it's up to you whether you make them builtins or a program 17:55:03 foom: except for a few builtins like export, cd. 17:55:20 Fare: i vote for hardwire. 17:55:34 Fare: people who want the feature will be from the future anyway. 17:55:42 Xach: OK. Now I have to get a recent SBCL to test cl-launch with... 17:55:52 hm. I guess cd could chdir and then exec a new shell. 17:55:55 So on any POSIX compliant UNIX(tm) box (or wannabe) I can count on printf existing either as a standalone command or in my shell? 17:55:56 kreuter: i dunno, does it require that you implement those as builtins? what if your OS has a secret chdir_of_other_pid() syscall? you could implement it that way! 17:56:01 when is 1.0.22 to be released? 17:56:13 Fare: by the end of the month 17:56:23 kreuter: are you in charge of a release this month? 17:56:27 gigamonkey: I think so. 17:56:32 Xach: no, but I could be. 17:56:33 I suppose I can release cl-launch 2.08 then. 17:56:38 anything particularly exciting .21->.22 ? 17:56:44 *rsynnott* is impressed by regularity of sbcl releases these days 17:56:56 though I don't think I'll upgrade again for a bit 17:56:58 salex: --script and saving runtime options 17:57:02 foom: http://www.opengroup.org/onlinepubs/007908799/xcu/chap2.html#tag_001_014 17:57:05 *Fare* goes grab sbcl from git 17:57:16 Xach: ah, nice 17:57:25 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-37.kosnet.ru] has quit ["l Ov e"] 17:57:28 i have to roll out an update on clusters 17:57:36 but .21 will be fine for that, i think 17:57:49 bug fixes too. 17:58:06 also, a bigger number. 17:58:10 AnthonyG [n=AnthonyG@24.121.239.253] has joined #lisp 17:58:16 always, but I don't know of one in .21 that is biting me 17:58:23 so i won't hold off unless a good reason 17:58:26 is all 17:58:26 *AnthonyG* falls over 17:58:43 foom: in linux you can readlink /proc/$PID/cwd 17:59:59 Adrinael: Here! 18:00:13 Fare: yeah, but you can't 'ln -sf /proc/$PID/cwd' :) 18:00:32 huangjs [n=user@p4121-ipbf4108marunouchi.tokyo.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 18:00:35 -!- trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:00:50 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:01:14 o_O 18:01:18 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:02:31 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 18:02:34 anyone know what drakma does with cookies if i don't provide a cookie jar? 18:02:37 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-65-65.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 18:02:46 ... there seem to be some changes in FFI in current sbcl pre-1.0.22. Namely at least non-exported but widely used sb-alien::shared-object-file became sb-alien::shared-object-pathname (IIRC) and probably other cahges. This broke CFFI (which is already fixed) and CLG (which isn't) 18:03:16 ivan4th: that has been discussed on sbcl-devel 18:03:21 ivan4th: the cffi fix isn't 18:03:22 -!- AnthonyG [n=AnthonyG@24.121.239.253] has left #lisp 18:03:34 or perhaps doesn't 18:04:11 *ivan4th* spent last night trying to fix CLG but failed (reverted to older SBCL) 18:04:28 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:04:41 Xach: nah, isn't works better 18:04:42 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 18:05:03 ivan4th: the new thing is sb-alien:unload-shared-object 18:06:38 Xach: the nonexistent SBCL cabal has been queried re: the next release. 18:06:42 ok 18:07:09 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:07:50 milos_ [n=mikici@92.36.129.8] has joined #lisp 18:08:46 what would be a good way of taking a string and putting some special binary codes into it? 18:09:22 encode the special binary codes as characters and store them in the string? 18:09:32 *Xach* was thinking (setf char) 18:10:07 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:10:16 kreuter: how do you mean?(format "~a" (code-char code))? 18:10:21 Xach: how's that? 18:10:43 lukego [n=lukegorr@72.37.205.4] has joined #lisp 18:10:46 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@72.37.205.4] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:10:59 also, would that work for multi-byte codes? 18:11:08 sykopomp|class: your question is agonizingly vague. 18:11:15 sykopomp|class: what string are you taking? 18:11:21 sykopomp|class: I was thinking something more like uuencode or base64 18:11:40 BTW: I've sent a patch for sb-bsd-socket fixing an issue with non-blocking connect() (so that EINPROGRESS isn't treated as an error) in May. http://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=4d93c5bf0805090554o48b4e43ay69a4ca55237a20ab%40mail.gmail.com&forum_name=sbcl-devel Is there something wrong with it? 18:12:01 er... is there a way to specify the end-of-line convention in external-format in SBCL? 18:12:04 Xach: sorry. Here's more specific. I want to use my current interface and write some filter function that slaps codes into generated strings. The codes would be stuff like whatever special codes a custom client might use, or something such as formatting codes for telnet. 18:12:22 huangjs: no. (patches welcome!) 18:12:28 kreuter: i see... 18:13:03 huangjs: as a workaround, if the EOL format is CR/LF, since SBCL treats LF as #\Newline, you can "just" strip off the trailing #\Return. 18:13:19 if the EOL format is just CR, you're on your own. 18:13:46 sykopomp|class: i don't think in general it's a great idea to depend on the interpretation of a character as a particular integer value when some other system interprets the string. 18:13:56 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:14:26 sellout [n=greg@da001d0478.smr-ga.osd.concentric.net] has joined #lisp 18:14:53 kreuter: hmm.. since CR is before LF, what should I do if I want to write cr/lf as newline? 18:14:59 Xach: well, the entire string is always converted to unsigned-byte 8 char-codes before being sent out, so kreuter's approach might be good. 18:15:15 sykopomp|class: or just work with ub8 everywhere. 18:15:23 gotta run all of a sudden, but feel free to answer, sykopomp is watching 18:15:37 huangjs: (format stream "~A~C~%" string #\Return), maybe 18:15:42 sykopomp|class: i think i would be inclined to inject non-character control stuff in at that conversion phase. 18:16:09 sykopomp|class: I'm with Xach. 18:16:50 kreuter: ah, yes, i see. thanks. 18:17:53 sykopomp|class: it used to be that you could just assume an encoding like latin-1 and just stuff code-chars into a string and everything would just work (except when it didn't) 18:18:01 sykopomp|class: i don't think that's a good starting point today 18:18:29 Xach: huh? 18:18:33 -!- H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0D1EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 18:18:39 oh, I see, if you're doing real text processing. 18:19:49 kreuter: my impression is that sykopomp wants to put values in a string that, when interpreted by some other system, understands those values in a special non-character control capacity. 18:19:52 sykopomp|class: I think I answered a question different from the one you were asking earlier. you should ignore my answer, and heed Xach. 18:20:49 there's nothing stopping you from embedding some kind of escape scheme in your string and adding control codes during some conversion 18:21:12 (my-string-to-octets "Foo#{cr}#{lf}Bar#{255}") 18:21:21 (or whatever else is convenient) 18:22:09 ooh, ooh! there's an epigram relevant here! 18:22:10 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:22:29 "34. The string is a stark data structure and everywhere it is passed there is much duplication of process. It is a perfect vehicle for hiding information." 18:22:34 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:22:45 -!- milos_ [n=mikici@92.36.129.8] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:22:46 Xach: but then you have to escape some more stuff. It may be simpler to use structured data rather than faking it on top of strings. 18:23:02 pkhuong: Perlis beat you to it! 18:23:31 I bow to kreuter the copy pasta master (: 18:23:58 I wish I could copy pasta. I'd never need to buy food again. 18:24:27 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-123-084.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:24:28 Look the first 128 caracters of unicode are ASCII and the next 128 are iso-latin-1. Macs use CR ,linux/unix Lf and windows CR+LF. So Just search for those cases. The ASCII contol codes will work 18:26:26 younder: by itself, that doesn't help if he's supposed to be emitting character data in UTF-8 encoding, or something. 18:27:35 Modius [n=Modius@ppp-70-244-122-30.dsl.austtx.swbell.net] has joined #lisp 18:27:45 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:28:15 H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D1EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:17 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:28:25 the definition of character changes, yes. But that should not affect you at the user level 18:28:58 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:30:00 Really, it's best to not to play tricks: strings are vectors of characters. If you need to deal with objects that are not characters, use something else. 18:30:08 -!- sellout [n=greg@da001d0478.smr-ga.osd.concentric.net] has quit [] 18:30:14 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 18:30:15 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:30:46 Experience with C "strings" and the dubious tricks that can be played with them doesn't really translate to lisp strings, IMO. 18:33:13 -!- sykopomp|class [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:35:16 krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-202-76-94.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 18:39:25 -!- vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:39:32 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:39:51 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:40:21 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has left #lisp 18:41:09 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:41:57 Sorry about the moving about. Just tested an irc client in eclipse. 18:42:19 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E462C5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:42:22 I'll quit logging on and off now. Promise. 18:42:49 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 18:42:57 iaejg [n=none@p54ABD7CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:43:38 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 18:43:52 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-50-169.man.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 18:44:11 zu22 [n=ubuntu@unaffiliated/zu22] has joined #lisp 18:45:09 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 18:50:37 vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:50:52 -!- krumholt [n=krumholt@port-92-202-20-224.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:52:26 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:52:55 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:53:15 hey #lisp - whats the name for viewing an already defined function ? 18:53:46 misconception? 18:54:20 nyef: in theory, ED should be able to do it. in theory. 18:54:32 nyef: interspection? 18:54:34 Really? 18:54:35 are you familiar with etags? 18:54:36 -!- iaejg [n=none@p54ABD7CF.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:55:01 nyef: in theory! 18:55:08 belaf [i=5d90c737@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9a873608f494d39b] has joined #lisp 18:55:29 kij: i call it "M-." 18:55:44 -!- belaf [i=5d90c737@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9a873608f494d39b] has left #lisp 18:56:01 y'know, it would probably be easy trivial to implement ed(1) for ED. 18:56:07 s/trivial// 18:56:16 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 18:56:34 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E43F1F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:56:54 ED seems to be rather uselessly specified. 18:57:21 nyef: it's an implementation-independent specification for something that might not be provided! 18:57:23 I've seen some lispers use vi or vim but never ED certainly emacs rules 18:58:05 blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 18:58:09 i sometimes edit configs with ed, when i don't what to start emacs 18:58:26 s/what/want/ 18:58:47 Xach: so - i can see the documentation string with (describe ) but my actually code is hidden from me? 18:59:29 kij: usually, yes, unless you set up an environment to capture it. 18:59:35 kij: not just hidden, but encrypted into seekrit instructions that only your computer knows! 18:59:37 kij: that means writing functions into files. 18:59:54 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless96.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:00:03 or using pjb-lisp 19:00:14 (well, your computer and DISSASSEMBLE.) 19:00:29 Xach: thanks. My problem with embedding escape codes was that the function that converts a string to octets is very low-level -- the last step before something gets chucked out into a stream. I think the solution is probably to raise that function up a few levels and do the octet-code-related stuff there. 19:02:13 sounds like a job for flexi-streams to me.. 19:03:24 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.155.52] has quit ["Induhvidual Quote: “I'm thinking in my brain.”"] 19:03:42 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 19:06:58 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 19:10:44 damnit .. for some reason cl- net is sending data about at 8mpbs 19:10:54 *drewc* hunts 19:11:15 eek 19:11:39 -!- antgreen [n=green@bas2-toronto06-1242511347.dsl.bell.ca] has left #lisp 19:11:43 and then it's not ... STF 19:11:47 WTF even! 19:12:00 -!- oudeis__ [n=oudeis@p11811112.orange.net.il] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:12:01 who is to blame? 19:12:07 a haxor, perhaps. 19:12:57 -!- dabd [n=dabd@85.139.96.48] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:13:36 ftp.debian.org is to blame? WTFFF 19:13:55 someone downloading something huge? 19:15:19 drewc, H4ns: thanks for the Trac 19:20:08 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:44 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-3-123.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 19:23:34 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:24:50 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 19:26:09 ehu: sure! 19:28:50 H4ns: i think we're being DDOS'd or something ... there is no way this is legitmate traffic 19:29:29 drewc: \o/ my kind of fun for the evening 19:29:35 drewc: fyi, my smokepings to clnet show it starting around 5 hours ago 19:29:45 8:30am eastern 19:30:16 drewc: and it is trending down, in terms of latency 19:31:50 On what date did common-lisp.net switch to the new server? 19:31:54 we're only pulling 5mbps or so no! 19:32:00 noq 19:32:04 now 19:32:04 any chance it's debian doing some sort of rsync thing? 19:32:28 (I've no idea how debian operates, but there are lots of debian packages of lisp libs) 19:32:38 the clnet move got it over 100ms closer to my server 19:33:06 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:33:06 it's not just debian anymore, there are connections to the www server from .th each eating 55k or so 19:33:13 sorry .. 500k 19:33:28 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:33:42 from where??? 19:34:04 drewc: yikes! 19:34:38 this has got to be spoofed or something .. i just saw a shaw cable address pulling almost 1.5mbs 19:34:55 what kind of traffic? 19:35:42 -!- mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-081-049.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 19:35:50 *ehu* wondered that too 19:35:52 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 19:35:52 could it be every mirror in the world all seeing "everything's changed, update!" or just craziness 19:35:56 sounds like a DOS attack 19:36:47 can you contact your host isp to help? 19:37:27 llf520198.crawl.yahoo.net 5.35Mb <-- wow 19:37:31 is it ok to use "!" as a function name ? 19:37:31 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-65-65.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:38 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-213-196.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:37:40 kij: yes 19:38:01 drewc: you doing forward lookups of those names too to make sure the revdns isn't spoofed? 19:38:21 is this channel traffic logged somewhere? we lost our power this morning so i lost my log of the past 2 days :( 19:38:24 kij: and you can get quite perverse by putting any characters you like between | characters. 19:38:44 minion: logs 19:38:44 emacs may not like you very much after doing so, though. 19:38:45 logs: #lisp logs are available at http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/ ; older logs may be available at http://tunes.org/~nef/logs/lisp/ (down as of 2008/09/24) 19:38:56 kij: for example, (defun |:-)*-<| ...) 19:38:56 foom: how does one do a forward lookup? 19:39:09 fe[nl[ix: awesome thanks! 19:41:03 (defun  () 3d0) 19:41:20 (defun |{}| (set) ...) (: 19:41:29 that glyph is too blurry. what is it? 19:41:30 kreuter: interesting link...It's interesting that no existing shell complies with that w.r.t. builtin handling. 19:41:42 really? 19:41:55 see Command Search and Execution section 19:42:16 Xach: thanks - i just wanted a sane factorial name 19:42:22 -!- bobbysmith007 [n=russ@one.firewall.gnv.acceleration.net] has left #lisp 19:42:24 kij: like factorial? 19:42:26 if it has a builtin *not* in that list there, it can't use it unless it finds the system version of the program in the PATH search 19:42:33 pkhuong: {} doesn't need escaping. neither [], or <>; only |()| 19:42:40 Krystof: i see "(defun FOO () 3d0) where foo is a strange glyph: a black hexagon with a white ? in it. 19:42:52 the PI symbol 19:42:54 e.g. if ls is builtin, but you set PATH=/my/utils/ and ther's a /my/utils/ls, the shell must use your ls, not the builtin 19:43:05 see example at the end of that section 19:43:05 pjb: but || is the set cardinality operator. 19:43:05 zu22: get better fonts, and an utf-8 aware irc client. 19:43:09 xchat shows it fine 19:43:22 pjb: ah ok, using epic4 19:43:23 pkhuong: oh, right! :-) 19:44:00 kij pasted "factorial" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69064 19:44:20 -!- ivan4th [n=ivan4th@smtp.igrade.ru] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 19:44:32 next: Gamma. 19:44:50 first: make it faster 19:44:53 heh, typo on -j argument to make sure can bring a system to its knees 19:45:21 salex: ... on systems with sucky schedulers (*cough* linux) 19:45:23 http://paste.lisp.org/display/69064 19:45:30 pkhuong: especially! 19:46:49 kij: you have an optional argument incase the defintion of ! changes??? 19:46:53 it really pisses me off that, afaict, I have to nice my computational tasks or my box stops responding. 19:47:24 kij: oh, nm i see what your doing 19:47:34 salex: :) 19:48:05 kij: it's a bit odd though, what happens if you pass it 2 args? 19:48:42 makes for a wonky interface 19:48:53 pkhuong: sort of the point of nice, but yeah, i know what you mean 19:49:04 *drewc* breaths a sigh of relief. 19:49:10 salex: doesn 19:49:37 t happen on some other OSes which are able to schedule interactive/IO processes correctly ;) 19:49:43 it seems like some attack against viewcvs.cgi 19:49:45 salex: i have a (defun ! (n) factorial (n)) 19:49:55 *ups 19:50:12 (defun ! (n) ( mathlib:factorial n) ) 19:50:51 then why do you need an optional parameter? just do (defun ! (n) (mathlib:factorial n 1)) 19:50:59 Krystof: thinking of utf-8 code, your hmm code reminded about it when i was revisiting that chord stuff. So I remembered they have sharp/natural/flat signs. hand! 19:51:20 kij: why the optional? 19:51:30 nm, stassats beat me to it. 19:52:06 kij: you can avoid that sort of thing by using a labeled function inside your factorial, btw. 19:52:22 drewc: maybe set up a robots.txt against viewcvs, websvn, etc? 19:52:31 (current version allows webtraffic there. 19:52:33 ) 19:53:12 using labels may also result in more efficient code (although a standard compliant implementation could actually apply the same tricks without the labels). 19:53:23 right 19:53:23 salex: i count on the way up - does that make sense ? 19:53:27 i read you do not need to assign a function name in lisp if you use the #' thing (what is this called, operator?) 19:53:46 #' is a reader macros for function 19:53:52 ok 19:53:54 kij: i'm not talking about your algorithm, i'm talking about your implemntation 19:54:20 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-91.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 19:54:24 by making factorial itself a 2-arg to carry around the accumulated state, you open the question of what that arg means to a user 19:54:30 i.e. #'... == (function ...) 19:54:38 ah 19:54:44 best to hide it internally (and as pkhuong notes, it may help with code generation) 19:55:26 The point is that #' takes a _function_ _name_! 19:56:01 zu22: it'd be better to try anonymous functions: (lambda (x) (* 2 x)) 19:56:28 for example: (mapcar (lambda (x) (* 2 x)) '(1 2 3 4)) 19:56:47 salex: thanks 19:56:51 pjb: i read lambda is kept around for historical reasons because in common lisp a function is stored in memory as an object and not a list, but before a function was just a list that started with lambda 19:56:59 Otherwise you'd have to write: (defun double (x) (* 2 x)) (mapcar #'double '(1 2 3 4)) 19:57:01 pjb: careful, it's a very slippery slope from (lambda (x) (* 2 x)) to compose ;) 19:57:35 zu22: lambda is not historic, it's fundamental. 19:58:02 zu22, where did you read that? 19:58:13 pjb: oh i mean when common lisp was being agreed upon paul graham said they did not need to keep lambda but did for historical reasons because people were used to it 19:59:03 zu22: you want some way to denote anonymous functions. However you pronounce it, it would still be lambda. 19:59:13 Paul Graham is a (semi)hostile witness when referring to Common Lisp 19:59:23 dcrawford: "ANSI Common Lisp" page 26 19:59:29 Some people have strange ideas, and the fact that they've been rejected long ago by all sane persons, don't make these strange ideas "historic". Otherwise Xah would be as historic as Churchil... 19:59:31 dcrawford: ah 19:59:46 pkhuong: ok 20:00:23 zu22: he may have referred to using the term 'lambda' as opposed to some people's preferred 'fn' 20:00:49 graham crackers: http://www.cs.northwestern.edu/academics/courses/325/readings/graham/graham-notes.html 20:00:56 ehu: that's exactly what i did :) 20:01:57 sykopomp: `' is shorter 20:02:13 stassats, only w/ a keymap 20:02:18 stassats: \x is even more so :P 20:02:21 stassats: wow what did you type to produce that lambda symbol? 20:02:39 ehu: and it didn't work :( 20:02:39 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-91.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:02:46 zu22: M-x set-input-method RET greek RET l 20:02:57 that's very short! 20:03:17 drewc: websvn runs in /websvn, not /cgi-bin 20:03:56 ehu: yeah, but the attack is on viewcvs right now, and i was hoping it was simply a spidering gone mad. 20:04:13 chandler: that could be bound to a single key. 20:04:15 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 20:04:23 pjb: yes, I'm just being snarky. 20:04:30 then maybe write everything in greek: ( ( () (*  2)) ) 20:04:33 but no, nobody spiders from mexican DSL lines and wherever .th is 20:04:38 chandler: did you get my mail re lisppaste? 20:04:43 Good evening, #lisp! 20:04:48 oh yes. I owe you a channel, don't I. 20:04:54 hello Athas 20:04:56 sykopomp: see http://paste.lisp.org/display/69067 20:05:07 stassats: thanks 20:05:31 zu22: ah 20:05:32 stassats: if you would write  , then you wouldn't write . but L. 20:05:38 drewc: right. but would a spider request the robots.txt before every url, or just before getting the entire "hierarchy"? (I'd do the latter) 20:05:54 or, in lisp: (ell () (*  2)) 20:06:04 I wonder if I can still load SBCL, SLIME and McCLIM. It was hard enough to keep running day-to-day, but after taking a break for months? 20:06:09 Has anything new happened since the summer? 20:06:32 drewc: is the new clnet ever going to get rdns? 20:06:39 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:07:23 um. 20:07:28 "So, for instance, (SORT (REMOVE ...) ...) may not be safe." says http://yrk.nfshost.com/repos/slime-cl-pitfalls/slime-cl-pitfalls.el 20:07:56 chandler: it will, if you make sure that it is not forgotten. if you're kind, open a ticket. 20:08:06 oh. I thought REMOVE always returns a copy 20:08:08 antifuchs: because REMOVE's not guaranteed to return a fresh sequence. 20:08:10 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 20:08:14 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:08:15 pkhuong: I just saw. cool. 20:09:00 I think all the sequence frobbing functions are specified that way. I wonder whether any implementation actually exercises that freedom. 20:09:27 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:09:37 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:09:39 it would make sense for those that don't have a gc that reclaims new objects quickly (: 20:10:00 I had forgotten how "amusing" the threaded evaluation in the McCLIM Listener is. 20:10:15 chandler: it does : 208.72.159.207 resolved to common-lisp.net 20:10:34 billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 20:10:36 pkhuong: isn't the case where the sequence doesn't contain the element an obvious one where the implementation might as well return the original sequence? 20:10:49 drewc: Hm. freenode does not seem to know that. 20:10:57 I wonder if it was set up after the bots joined. 20:11:26 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.8] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 20:11:28 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:11:56 soverton [n=user@75.145.221.229] has joined #lisp 20:13:02 kreuter: mm.. with a non-tail-recursive implementation for lists, I guess. 20:13:05 pkhuong: at least clisp returns the same sequence if no element is removed 20:13:57 it can also return a subsequence 20:15:03 (which is shared with the supplied sequence) 20:16:27 is using with-input-from-string and read the best way to convert a string to a number? 20:16:39 hugo_ [n=hugo@89.181.125.158] has joined #lisp 20:16:43 locklace: parse-string 20:16:49 oops 20:16:50 minion: parse-number 20:16:51 locklace: parse-integer is a good way 20:16:51 parse-number: parse-number is a Library of functions which accept an arbitrary string and attempt to parse it into one of the standard Common Lisp number types, if possible, or else it signals an error of type invalid-number. http://www.cliki.net/parse-number 20:16:52 parse-integer 20:17:07 if it works 20:17:32 Did the talk about an ASDF replacement/successor result in any code being written? 20:17:55 no, everyone decided asdf has won and new ideas are a waste of time and effort. 20:18:14 Xach: ok, that's good for integers at least :) 20:18:27 The problem with that statement, in the context of the CL community, is that I cannot tell whether it is sarcasm or not. 20:18:42 pkhuong: that looks good, is it better to use a lib like that than with-input-from-string and read? 20:19:09 Athas: sorry. 20:19:13 locklace: probably, as this library has taken care of all of the details of rejecting things that READ would accept but aren't numbers 20:19:31 but for a quick hack where you control the inputs, it might not be worth it. 20:19:54 clhs read-from-string 20:19:54 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_fro.htm 20:20:10 great. thanks! 20:20:36 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:20:37 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 20:20:53 locklace: note that if the string can parse as an integer, parse-integer is already in the language. 20:21:06 -!- soverton [n=user@75.145.221.229] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:21:45 heh, the last example at http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/strings.html#number is a good warning about read-from-string 20:21:48 Athas, well xcvb has code online/published and has compiled at least one decent sized codebase, but is far from feature-complete 20:22:01 *chandler* mistypes a clhs request in his browser, and is slightly shocked to discover that 2.2. will be a standard symbol in IncreduLisp 20:22:07 Athas, developers welcome 20:22:31 More importantly: is xcvb a clever acronym? 20:23:03 XCVB Compiles Very Bizarrely? 20:23:14 Works for me! 20:23:28 XCVB Creates Venial Backronyms! 20:23:49 *kreuter* bows down before chandler's Backronymic Mastery. 20:25:21 is the cl cookbook still being actively developed? 20:25:26 locklace: i don't think so. 20:25:43 shame, taht 20:25:56 -!- sely_ [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:26:09 yeah, that is a shame, it's a really good idea 20:26:13 It officially calls itself: XCVB: an eXtensible Component Verifier and Builder. Is that not crazy enough for you people? ;p 20:26:18 hrm ... it seems that the very existance of http://common-lisp.net/cgi-bin/viewcvs.cgi/cl-irc/example/words?annotate=1.1&root=cl-irc somehow allows just about any internet connection to pull 1mbit through the pipe.. 20:26:22 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 20:26:46 drewc: Yikes. And it's my fault, too :-( 20:27:07 hah 20:27:08 time to add a url to robots.txt! 20:27:38 drewc: are people getting there via google or something? 20:27:59 maybe through a link in irc logs ;) 20:28:44 dictionaries seem like a likely landing spot for google searches for obscure word combinations 20:29:05 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@130.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 20:29:23 it's not that simple .. this has to be automated somehow. 20:29:29 drewc: and what was traffic after you just posted it here? 20:29:43 everyone on the channel :) 20:30:03 ya, and we're back up to 8mps 20:30:31 #lisp'ed 20:30:37 but before i posted the link, all the hits had had the same user-agent, though they came from different IPs 20:30:38 *dcrawford* sings "S M R T" 20:30:40 -!- hugo__ [n=hugo@89.181.121.53] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:30:48 drewc: ah. 20:31:14 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:33:33 *kreuter* wonders if it's worth the work to submit patches for the cl-cookbook. 20:33:52 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:33:53 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:34:02 *salex* wonders why it wasn't a wiki in the first place 20:34:30 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:34:35 salex: and let the unwashed touch it? my heavens! 20:34:52 logins. 20:35:25 doesn't help much 20:35:25 kreuter: fork the sbcl cookbook and work around CL/unix mismatches via sb-posix/unix. 20:35:35 stassats: it does if you're picky abou thtem 20:35:43 pkhuong: huh? 20:36:04 salex: approved logins? 20:36:09 *salex* nods 20:36:54 the cl-cookbook's license permits derivative works. would need a name. "cl-crookbook"? 20:37:26 cl-tour-d-argent ? 20:37:41 kreuter: it would depend on the kind of cookbook you'd want to write... 20:37:57 cl-mcdonalds 20:37:57 lol 20:38:21 kreuter: it seems to me scripting-type tasks are hobbled by the underspecified IO functions. 20:39:02 oh, I see. 20:39:30 Also, you seem to like ranting at pathnames. 20:39:35 :) 20:39:49 that's not all I like to rant about! 20:39:57 ASDF tends to get me going, f'rinstance. 20:40:28 I'm trying to be constructive here, though. 20:40:40 what's the main problem with basic io? 20:40:46 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-166-102.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:41:11 locklace: the problem is that you can't please everybody. 20:41:58 kreuter: McDonald's does! 20:42:08 ... 20:42:17 cmm: urk. 20:42:27 maybe i'm missing something but it seems to me like the basic cl io features are good enough for all the usual ascii/binary things at least 20:42:54 food is recurring theme in #lisp 20:42:57 they're pretty good. bivalent streams 'd be nice though 20:42:58 locklace: I think pkhuong was including more general file system interactions under the heading of "IO". 20:43:07 stassats: mcdonalds only barely qualifies 20:43:28 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:43:30 and pathnames, well, sometimes you're stuck with your history 20:43:32 I certainly wouldn't consider mcdonalds a good I/O model. 20:43:39 ok, it's true that i myself asked for a posix file system interface the other day ;) 20:44:00 but that should be solved be a single de-facto-standard posix interface layer 20:44:29 be->by 20:45:44 can anybody think of a good reason to encourage people to compare strings with EQUAL and EQUALP, rather than the STRING- functions? 20:46:05 i guess this project doesn't actually exist: http://www.cliki.net/Common-Lisp-POSIX 20:46:25 kreuter: it'll work when they want to compare strings in a hash table? 20:46:31 minion: osicat? 20:46:31 osicat: Operating system interface library mainly for Unix. http://www.cliki.net/osicat 20:46:40 kreuter: i'd rather use the latter if you know you're working with strings 20:47:38 chandler: yeah it looked like a good start to me 20:47:52 equal is shorter than string= 20:47:59 I guess somebody got nervous when (string= "NIL" NIL) returned true. 20:48:43 whoa 20:48:57 why does that happen? 20:48:59 but equal doesn't have keyword arguments 20:49:05 locklace: string designator 20:49:43 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 20:51:21 oh i see, so you also get (string= "a" #\a) 20:51:25 that isn't what i would have expected... 20:51:27 kreuter: on a unix filesystem, with *pathname* being a pathname for an existing regular file(not a symlink), would you expect that (string= (namestring *pathname*) (namestring (truename *pathname*))) be always T ? 20:51:33 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A10DA.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:52:07 locklace: but it is useful sometimes 20:53:17 i'm sure it is, but i'd rather that particular useful thing had a different name ;) 20:55:23 locklace: in that case, it's better to just have string-* which works only on strings and STRING which turns string designators into strings 20:56:13 right 20:56:50 ok, i'm a new fan of equal :) 20:57:11 dalton [n=id@200.204.237.188] has joined #lisp 20:57:13 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #lisp 20:57:46 but equal doesn't let you do (string= "begin" "begin with a ..." :end2 5) 20:57:56 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:57:57 locklace: Why? 20:58:25 locklace: it's better to use one when appropriate 20:59:09 fe[nl]ix: no. 20:59:09 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:26 fe[nl]ix: are you writing a pathnames implementation? 20:59:49 yeah, i just consider that a gotcha, obviously not an issue if eg you know the args are strings 21:00:24 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:00:42 kreuter: I'm playing with Scieneer's and it's like one WTF after another 21:00:48 oh 21:01:10 is there a nice library for working with trees and doing different kinds of tree traversals? 21:01:12 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0EA23.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:43 fe[nl]ix: I would expect truename to resolve any symlinks in the directory component. 21:03:10 locklace: maybe cl-containers 21:03:41 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:03:48 sellout [n=greg@12.189.224.3] has joined #lisp 21:03:49 fe[nl]ix: is that what you're seeing? 21:05:23 fe[nl]ix: thanks, i saw it before and it looks very nice, maybe it also has good traversal tools 21:05:46 kreuter: I don't like the fact that (namestring #p"/tmp/") is "/tmp/", while (namestring (truename #p"/tmp/")) is "file://localhost/tmp/" 21:07:10 bascule [n=noether@static-ip-62-75-255-124.inaddr.intergenia.de] has joined #lisp 21:07:35 oh so the URI host is the default? 21:07:39 (or something) 21:07:58 *stassats* recently had similar troubles with SCL pathnames 21:08:45 ended up with #-scl (user-homedir-pathname) #+scl "/home/stas/" 21:08:53 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:09:06 kreuter: pathnames as URIs is an interesting concept, but I don't like how dtc implemented it 21:09:18 jajcloz [n=jaj@12.189.224.2] has joined #lisp 21:10:09 oh, hm. 21:10:15 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 21:10:58 do you really want a rant? 21:11:02 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 21:12:08 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 21:12:12 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:12:18 kreuter: if you feel like ranting about pathnames, sure :) 21:12:50 yay, rant 21:13:08 but maybe it would be better to blog the rant, rather than do it here :D 21:13:16 um 21:13:57 well, I'd say that having those namestrings be different was not faithful to the intent of the spec, since namestring is supposed to return something canonical. 21:15:19 cky [n=cky@202-74-219-83.ue.woosh.co.nz] has joined #lisp 21:15:38 in fact, gwking expected that too, but scl breaks asdf-binary-locations 21:15:49 more generally, I think that you can make an argument that namestrings without explicit hosts shouldn't really be considered canonical. 21:16:12 yeah, my troubles was with a-b-l 21:16:13 I certainly wouldn't consider mcdonalds a good I/O model. ; Would that be because it makes your input work as output? 21:16:15 combining urls and paths is a bad idea 21:16:31 foom: why ? 21:16:33 pjb: sure, why not? 21:17:13 different semantics. E.g. /foo/bar/../baz is not the same meaning as /foo/baz, but file:///foo/bar/../baz *is* the same meaning as file:///foo/baz. 21:17:35 foom: hear, hear! 21:18:14 er, wait. the file URL specification says that ".." means :BACK? 21:18:21 fe[nl]ix pasted "pathname-prefix-p in asdf-binary-locations" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69072 21:18:27 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D1EE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:18:44 what if /foo/bar is a symlink to some random place other than /foo? 21:18:52 The URL specification says so, yes. 21:19:06 very well. I reiterate my "hear, hear". 21:19:12 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-2657d77cba15a209] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:19:19 Liempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has joined #lisp 21:19:30 fe[nl]ix annotated #69072 with "what about this ?" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69072#1 21:21:11 -!- vanLiempt [n=Bevinvan@unaffiliated/liempt] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:27 You'll notice that the browser interprets and removes the .. segments, and it does so textually. That's correct according to the spec. 21:22:32 does the file URL spec say anything about wildcard syntax? 21:22:45 fe[nl]ix annotated #69072 with "weird SCL behaviour" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69072#2 21:23:01 wildcard? why would it say anything about wildcards? 21:23:19 that's what I expected. 21:23:21 kreuter: #2 is another WTF I had with scl 21:23:25 wildcards aren't a part of any sane pathname spec 21:23:44 foom: I don't agree. they're unambiguous on most platforms other than Unix. 21:24:04 tell me how open("*") makes any sense whatsoever 21:24:17 it doesn't. 21:24:41 but using wildcards as a descriptor for directory listings isn't senseless. 21:25:41 perdalum [n=per@0x5552aaba.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 21:25:41 yes, so it should be part of a match spec for a directory function. 21:25:51 you could as well want to match regular expressions 21:26:02 wildcards are a totally different layer 21:26:44 that's reflected in unix: wildcards are a shell feature, they have nothing to do with filesystems 21:26:49 locklace: well, on Windows, for example, the OS's listdir actually takes wildcard. I'd assume it's probably the same on VMS. :) 21:27:14 but still, that's a special feature of a directory list function. 21:27:22 :( 21:27:29 locklace: yes, and countless people damned that 21:28:09 it's not actually a shell function, it's a POSIX function. man 3p glob. 21:28:10 foom: one last question, can file URLs represent relative names? 21:28:27 kreuter: sure, "foo/bar" is a relative URL. 21:28:30 kreuter: yes 21:28:46 anything without a scheme: on the front is relative 21:28:51 fe[nl]ix: in that case, I'd expect that that example #2 would count as a bug. 21:29:10 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AD53F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:29:29 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Client Quit] 21:29:33 foom: true, i just meant shell as the canonical example of an interface layer, glob supports such interfaces 21:31:05 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@12.189.224.2] has quit [] 21:31:06 kreuter: IIRC the spec says that the final user must canonicalise the URI before using it, the final user being the web server for instance, not the client 21:31:12 jajcloz [n=jaj@12.189.224.2] has joined #lisp 21:31:43 fundamentally wildcards are an example of a search interface to a data store, not a property of data store locations 21:33:10 locklace: that's not necessarily true. in abstract, wildcards might be constrained according to syntactic requirements of the data store as location names are. 21:33:30 ths [n=ths@X668e.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 21:34:16 i am willing to understand what you mean by that, but don't :) 21:34:23 um 21:34:37 kreuter: that is nonsensical 21:34:56 kreuter: wildcard syntax can vary widely with no impact on the data store 21:35:18 kreuter: take glob vs regexp syntax, both would be perfectly valid wildcarding syntaxes to look up filenames 21:35:48 I'm saying that you can have systems that impose constraints on wildcard syntax, not that every system does. 21:36:07 locklace was saying that wildcards have nothing to do with locations in some system. 21:36:21 yeah, i think regular expressions were mentioned, do you expect a database core say (excluding search features) to have built-in regex knowledge?! what if you add a few dozen other kinds of search pattern mechanisms? should it know about them all? 21:36:52 they are different layers 21:37:21 sure, your directory listing function could only have certain features...but that only impacts dir listing. 21:37:39 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:38:09 cadabra [n=cadabra@69.169.136.43.provo.static.broadweave.net] has joined #lisp 21:38:17 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:39:05 locklace: the relational databases I've used support multiple pattern matching notations. from the perspective of the user submitting the query, they're all equally "built in". 21:39:27 there's a lot to be said for supporting pattern matching in your lookup system 21:39:27 the internal layering is more or less irrelvant. 21:39:34 as an implementation concern 21:39:40 of course! but they are totally different sw layers 21:40:25 windows' API lets you list foo.* much faster than linux's API, if your filesystem stores names as a btree, for instance. 21:44:58 you can have a fully-functional database core with no fancy pattern-search interface and well-defined location specifiers. then you can add pattern-search features atop that if you want, but you wouldn't modify the core location spec to incorporate that, that would be dreadful design 21:51:58 hi is there an easy way to find a key in some sublist. for example i have a list like (assoc :2 '(((:2 a) b) (:1 c))) this will retunr nil but i want th result (:2 a) 21:52:16 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 21:53:12 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:53:19 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 21:56:43 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:56:56 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-91.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 21:57:32 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:58:34 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-208-91.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 22:00:13 cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 22:00:34 krumholt_: nope. 22:00:39 -!- segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1D48D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:01:46 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:03:01 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:03:46 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:04:47 daltonx [n=id@201-68-173-2.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 22:05:07 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:08:34 stassats pasted "find-pair-with-car" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/69079 22:09:20 weasel_______ [n=weasel@pD9566317.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:10:39 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:10:54 lisp sucks :-) 22:11:37 java roxx 22:11:40 -!- sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:11:49 weasel_______: go away 22:11:49 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@12.189.224.2] has quit [] 22:11:59 -!- weasel_______ is now known as weasel________ 22:12:05 -!- weasel________ is now known as weasel__________ 22:12:17 -!- sellout [n=greg@12.189.224.3] has quit [] 22:12:23 :-) 22:12:58 sabetts [n=sabetts@S0106000a95700fd8.gv.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:12:58 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:12:58 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:13:02 _mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 22:14:36 segv_ [n=mb@p4FC1EC61.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:15:49 -!- weasel__________ [n=weasel@pD9566317.dip.t-dialin.net] has left #lisp 22:16:29 my friend is from indonesia and she says they had java first 22:16:40 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:18:53 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-123-084.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:22:14 -!- ausente [n=id@200.204.237.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:26:40 -!- vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:29:39 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 22:34:58 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 22:38:06 -!- salex [n=user@ardbeg.math.uwaterloo.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:44:37 -!- gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-83-215.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:46:16 dnolen [n=dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has joined #lisp 22:46:43 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483C4B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:47:40 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 22:48:10 -!- daltonx is now known as dalton 22:48:26 -!- billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 22:50:40 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [] 22:52:11 -!- dnolen [n=dnolen@NYUFGA-WLESSAUTHCLIENTS-01.NATPOOL.NYU.EDU] has quit [] 22:52:24 hey #lisp, where can i find a permutor ? 22:52:55 a what? 22:53:44 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 22:55:17 -!- pjb [n=chatzill@212.145.149.100] has quit ["Chatzilla 0.9.75.1 [SeaMonkey 1.1.12/2008082917]"] 22:56:53 pkhuong: a permute function. 22:57:04 Jarv2 [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:57:31 kij: maybe have a look at http://darcs.informatimago.com/darcs/public/lisp/common-lisp/combination.lisp 22:57:56 if you want to map over all the permutations of a sequence, take a look at alexandria. 22:58:18 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 22:58:20 -!- cipher [n=cipher@inertia.acm.cs.rpi.edu] has quit ["leaving"] 22:58:52 -!- Jarvellis [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:59:01 -!- Jarv2 is now known as Jarvellis 23:01:42 locklace: thanks for the link. 23:02:24 pkhuong: http://common-lisp.net/project/alexandria/ ? 23:02:32 yes. 23:02:51 (otherwise identity is a perfectly fine permutation function) 23:04:07 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:07:13 gigamonkey [n=user@adsl-99-169-81-56.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 23:07:23 O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-191-101.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 23:07:26 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:07:42 pkhuong: not sure i understand 23:10:01 -!- _mathrick is now known as mathrick 23:10:43 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-58.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 23:12:04 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:12:54 cipher [n=user@inertia.acm.cs.rpi.edu] has joined #lisp 23:13:23 disumu [n=disumu@p57A25D3F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:13:55 -!- dalton is now known as ausente 23:14:37 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:15:03 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 23:22:33 Does anyone know of a blog aggregator that lists blogs that concern Lisp? 23:23:59 planet.lisp.org 23:24:06 http://planet.lisp.org/ 23:24:11 doh 23:25:10 sweet 23:25:35 i just made a blog, it isn't devoted to lisp but hopefully i can blog about lisp as i learn more and i'd like to link to other lisp blogs 23:29:26 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:29:33 -!- ausente [n=id@201-68-173-2.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [] 23:30:57 rread [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:31:15 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #lisp 23:31:24 bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has joined #lisp 23:33:53 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:36:39 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 23:37:43 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:38:35 slava [n=slava@li13-154.members.linode.com] has joined #lisp 23:39:54 how do I make asdf recompile a package? 23:40:41 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 23:41:56 (asdf:oos 'asdf:load-op :foo :force t) 23:42:29 thanks! 23:42:46 I needed to recompile some fasl after compiling sbcl with threads support 23:42:53 that is, compile and load 23:45:12 I'm trying to get beirc running but it's giving me error after error 23:46:39 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2FA5F.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 23:53:50 -!- krumholt_ [n=krumholt@port-92-202-76-94.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 23:53:59 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@208.42.136.59] has quit [] 23:58:35 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-68-238-4-78.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:59:13 installing cmucl it is going apecrazy with errors heh 23:59:20 complaining about the lisp core 23:59:27 core, that reminds me of mainframe systems :) 23:59:36 i better try clisp i guess 23:59:45 why not sbcl? 23:59:56 pala-wan: ok i'll try that, is one faster than the others?