00:00:07 sbt: you can write macros that expand into calls to higher-order generic functions 00:00:20 sbt: no matter what you'll have to dispatch at runtime. 00:00:32 I see 00:00:50 bye 00:00:51 didn't think of that, that should work. thanks 00:00:54 or at least emit code that does so in your macro and which might be optimised away later on. 00:01:17 and tbh I should (1) look at the postgres config too, as I haven't chaned it since the box got a 2x ram upgrade; (b) look at cl-postgres and see if I can stop it doing three roundtrips for each query 00:01:34 bind/prepare/execute or whatever it is 00:02:15 -!- FareWell [n=Fare@63.107.91.99] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:02:24 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:02:47 er, s/\(b\)/(2)/ 00:03:01 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 00:05:02 -!- ddsmith [n=ddsmith@12.6.239.179] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:05:42 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:07:49 -!- jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 00:09:21 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.4] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:12:42 dbalcer [n=dbalcer@host72-31-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 00:14:21 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-181.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 00:17:12 LiamH [n=nobody@138.88.126.7] has joined #lisp 00:17:14 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:22:30 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 00:26:50 -!- vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:34:48 jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:35:22 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:38:28 blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 00:40:15 -!- Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:40:31 ths_ [n=ths@X65f3.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:50:25 Zhivago [n=Zhivago@80.81.68.18] has joined #lisp 00:51:17 -!- dv____ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Gone"] 00:52:05 splittist [n=splittis@125.214.249.195] has joined #lisp 00:52:09 morning 00:53:12 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 00:55:57 -!- jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:56:24 -!- ths [n=ths@X75d0.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:56:46 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:57:12 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:03:52 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:05:34 Goan [n=Goan@dilip.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 01:05:39 -!- |Soulman| [n=kvirc@62.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:10:31 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 01:12:08 brickhazel_ [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 01:12:44 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:13:47 -!- bobrown`` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:14:06 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-12b9a3c0d48ff6f8] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:16:41 Is there an analog of LOGCOUNT for bitvectors? 01:17:18 count 01:17:33 jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.45.135] has joined #lisp 01:19:16 Okay yes! But that's not going to optimize into some gorgeous HACKMEMesque the way I so naively belive that LOGCOUNT does. 01:20:24 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:20:48 good evening all 01:22:31 feel free to believe that it doesn't get optimized by the compiler 01:27:51 sunwukong [n=salvi@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has joined #lisp 01:31:54 -!- ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:39:17 -!- brickhazel_ [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:39:23 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-5e2fcd36b5c448a9] has joined #lisp 01:40:06 brickhazel_ [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 01:40:59 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 01:41:12 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:43:40 trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-244-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 01:43:49 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:44:09 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:47:30 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 01:50:14 -!- Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:53:44 Goan [n=Goan@dilip.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 01:55:06 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-190-121.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 01:59:02 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-224-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:06:04 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 02:10:57 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:11:33 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:11:59 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 02:12:18 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:15:27 evening 02:15:31 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 02:16:00 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 02:17:24 -!- Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:20:35 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 02:21:15 evening slyrus 02:21:49 -!- jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:22:11 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:22:22 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:27:16 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:28:02 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@ool-4356ce50.dyn.optonline.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:30:41 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 02:38:25 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:43:21 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 02:43:33 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 02:43:51 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:44:06 -!- brickhazel_ [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 02:44:56 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 02:44:57 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus_ 02:48:43 sudoer [n=jtoy@74.85.13.15] has joined #lisp 02:49:27 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:51:25 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:52:57 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:56:12 -!- BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:56:24 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.45.135] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:56:27 brickhazel_ [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 02:57:11 good morning 02:57:17 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:57:24 mornin' beach 02:58:00 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 03:00:40 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@138.88.126.7] has quit ["Leaving."] 03:02:03 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:06:31 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:07:34 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:09:01 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-5e2fcd36b5c448a9] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:09:18 z` [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-48-200.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:09:47 -!- z` [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-48-200.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:10:57 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.136.77] has joined #lisp 03:12:32 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:13:13 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has quit [] 03:14:39 schme [n=marcus@c83-254-191-148.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 03:17:04 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.136.77] has left #lisp 03:18:10 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:19:28 beach, looked again at CLIM today and it does get bonus points forethought 03:19:36 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:09 for something design god knows when (1994?) the api is refreshingly current and extensible 03:20:16 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 03:20:19 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:45 but for one-off fast gui prototyping (in the absence of a GUI builder) it does feel overwhelming 03:21:16 (in the absence of a builder, any GUI for C++ or Java DOES feel overwhelming as well) 03:22:32 it's unfair to compare it to CAPI, which is just as complex, but being somewhat current, has a small starer-API. CAPI might have also benefited from looking at Tk and other gui scripting stuff. 03:22:52 fusss: I am glad you had a second look. I think you'll find that if you program with it, getting a very small application running is actually quite quick. 03:23:25 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-12419a2ea5526db2] has joined #lisp 03:23:29 fusss: CLIM also had the benefit of looking at other GUI toolkits, and then they did the right thing instead. 03:23:53 fusss: The command loop and presentations are a huge win. 03:23:59 the other stuff I was decrying as "complex" are downright futuristic; just its concept of streams is out of this world 03:24:14 -!- brickhazel_ [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:24:16 fusss: that's a wonderful feature. 03:24:17 brickhazel_ [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 03:25:00 fusss: It lets you use things like FORMAT to draw text, and it defines the temporal order between the graphics operations. You clearly need to learn more in order to appreciate all this. 03:25:41 yep. it's necessary to sit down with and take it as seriously as when I sat down to learn CLOS 03:26:09 fusss: McCLIM has a manual with some very small examples that you may want to look at some day. 03:27:08 fusss: But, again, the unbeatable advantage is that of presentations and presentation types. 03:27:11 setting up mcclim now, actually 03:27:27 fusss: That feature alone makes it very easy to write modular code. 03:28:24 I need as much lisp inspiration for a possible flash-based CL GUI toolkit 03:28:29 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 03:28:44 fusss: *fumes at flash* 03:29:00 I'm gonna see how it does signal/message/callback/event handling 03:29:33 sykopomp: convert already. it's the most powerful stack-based VM assembler code you will ever write ;-) 03:30:36 no tx 03:30:37 am I gonna need anything else for mcclim besides sbcl version of clx? 03:31:27 spatial-trees 03:33:09 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-12419a2ea5526db2] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:35:08 got it 03:35:10 jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.45.135] has joined #lisp 03:37:13 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:38:44 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@74.85.13.15] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:41:15 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:41:15 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:41:40 BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:42:58 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-48-200.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 03:45:51 -!- alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:46:33 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:47:30 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-48-200.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:47:38 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:51:15 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-37-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:53:18 -!- brickhazel_ [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 03:53:33 brickhazel_ [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 03:55:09 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:01:49 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 04:01:57 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-37-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:07:51 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 04:14:12 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 04:18:30 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:19:18 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:22:18 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:24:56 zu22 [n=ubuntu@unaffiliated/zu22] has joined #lisp 04:25:23 is there a lisp version of "Numerical Recipes in C"? 04:27:04 -!- brickhazel_ [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:27:52 zu22: (asdf-install:install 'patxi-2) :-) 04:28:49 zu22: I should hope not (as I recall that one was awful, with a lot of Fortran-isms directly translated to C). 04:29:27 I think I've seen a CL version once. OTOH, it wouldn't be hard to transliterate their C to CL. 04:29:29 zu22: Also, I think some of the things that one did at the time are no longer a good idea, such as looping log n times over an array to compute the FFT. 04:30:26 beach: Heh. Probably a translation of the one I got force-fed in Engineering school: "Numerical Methods" - it was all in Fortran. Which we found out during the first lecture "Oh, you'll need to learn Fortran to do the labs. There's probably a text in the bookstore." 04:32:38 aja: Actually, I think it was a "translation" of one that was called just "Numerical Recipes". 04:34:08 I hear their PRNG stuff isn't that hot, but that's probably true of anything from that period. 04:35:42 aja: patxi-2 is that a library i must install first? 04:35:58 beach: yeah and K&R syntax haha 04:37:09 beach: i keep looking for a book that will teach me how to compute optimization and time like O(n) time, N log N time but can't find anything! you know something that will teach me how to calculate what sort of time an algorithm will run in? 04:37:23 zu22: It's a library of numerical methods. There should be a cliki page. 04:38:00 aja: ok, i have this book on algorithms by sedgwick that i really like, not sure i'm ready to digest Knuth yet hehe 04:38:32 zu22: You'd want an algorithms text for that. Most will cover the rudenments in the first few chapters. If you want to go for the advanced stuff (Big-O, Omega, etc.) and theory, seek a good discrete mathematics text. 04:39:03 brickhazel_ [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 04:41:58 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4780A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:42:00 zu22: IIRC, TAOCP covers it pretty rigourously in the First Volume. But it's been a decade since I read that stuff, and years since I stopped pretending I understood it. 04:43:21 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-65-65.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:43:39 Knuth better bloody finish TAOCP before he dies. That guy takes digression right past "Art Form" and into some sort of metadigression. 04:45:26 aja: Vol 4, fascicle 2 has been available for a while. FWIW, I don't think anyone's really waiting for his volume on compilers (SSA conversion in MIX?). 04:46:56 pkhuong: I suppose, but I'll buy it to have a complete set. I'm on my second set of the first three already. I use them for settling arguments about algorithms the way I use the standard for languages. 04:49:36 sellout [n=greg@12.191.171.57] has joined #lisp 04:50:26 Lisp50 was pretty sweet. 04:50:33 aja: that's too bad. You're missing out on a lot of developments. I feel it's better used as an overview than the final word on anything. 04:52:16 -!- dbalcer [n=dbalcer@host72-31-dynamic.50-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has left #lisp 04:52:18 pkhuong: You're probably correct. However, most of our arguments are about stuff that's covered or touched on in the college curriculum, so it's hardly cutting-edge. You make a very good point, though. 04:58:21 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44028.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:59:01 sellout, so it's over now? 04:59:10 -!- scottj [i=foobar@209.181.138.162] has left #lisp 04:59:19 tic: Yep. 04:59:39 Back at my hotel room after the late dinner. 04:59:42 too bad McCarthy was ill. good phone interview though? 04:59:57 Lisp50 went from 8:30-23:30. 05:00:16 Busy day! 05:00:27 tic: Yeah ... Steele interviewed him ... Alan Kay was also ill :/ 05:00:29 who is blogging about lisp50? 05:00:37 sellout, meh! 05:00:49 fusss: I will be, but not until tomorrow. 05:01:50 aja, I think leaving TAOCP as an unfinished work will be the more likely outcome 05:02:02 Dinner was kind of surreal ... talking with JonL, Pascal Constanza, Rich Hickey, Kent Pitman, etc. 05:02:02 unless he is furiously typing away as we speak! 05:02:47 sohail: Yeah...well, that has it's romance, too. "Knuth was never wrong ... he just never got around to publishing it" 05:02:48 -!- sunwukong [n=salvi@ortros.den.rcast.u-tokyo.ac.jp] has quit ["bye"] 05:02:50 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:05:51 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:08:42 sellout, ohh, I envy you. 05:09:01 hogdog [i=RyanP@119.11.11.55] has joined #lisp 05:09:50 -!- sbt [n=sbt@rrcs-208-125-96-78.nys.biz.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:11:05 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.45.135] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:11:23 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 05:11:39 jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.45.135] has joined #lisp 05:11:40 Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has joined #lisp 05:13:00 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 05:14:50 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 05:17:34 benny [n=benny@i577A056E.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 05:18:15 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 05:18:32 -!- brickhazel_ [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [No route to host] 05:18:40 brickhazel__ [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 05:19:41 -!- bhall [n=bhall@unaffiliated/bhall] has quit ["leaving"] 05:22:28 zu22: what aja said! A good algorithms text book will do. 05:23:18 I never met any lisper :-S 05:23:26 maybe one schemer 05:23:45 fusss: Do you live in some remote area? 05:24:01 no, US capital, as a matter of fact 05:24:14 Like I said... 05:24:24 heh 05:24:39 I met a few, but they were kinda old 05:24:43 beach: how's the gtkairo backend for mcclim looking these days? 05:25:03 *fusss* listens intently 05:25:07 fusss: http://lisperati.com/fringedc.html 05:25:08 sykopomp: I am afraid I don't know. Last time I looked it worked. 05:25:30 but they say there are places where it is still used 05:26:06 BrianRice: I sorta know of them 05:26:35 fusss: Actually, you might also be able to find some Lispers in B-more. 05:26:48 spiaggia: you're beach? 05:26:57 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.249.21] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:27:05 sykopomp: Of course! Same nick, two langauges! 05:27:10 *ua 05:27:16 *three ;) 05:27:30 I occasionally use Ufer as well. 05:27:39 oh. I was confused >_> 05:28:04 i just get bored with the "industry" talk around programming. i used to hangout with some DARPA grand-challenge people, but it quickly dissolved to business talk. 05:29:21 -!- Drake1 [n=Gloria@216-67-63-236-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has left #lisp 05:29:34 yeah they're always talking about VB.NET this and VB.NET that ... 05:30:45 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 05:32:34 hogdog: java* 05:33:06 oh my 05:36:05 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 05:38:51 i'm off to find out what this 'java' thing is 05:38:53 -!- hogdog [i=RyanP@119.11.11.55] has left #lisp 05:39:31 ugh, can't believe GS made it 05:41:18 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-110-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 05:41:28 GS? 05:44:56 minion: what does GS stand for? 05:44:56 Grapery Stenocephaly 05:45:36 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 05:47:13 minion: I don't think that's a real term. 05:47:14 yes, yes it is 05:47:42 spiaggia: minion is really creepy. 05:51:13 I agree! 05:53:06 aja: thanks 05:54:04 pkhuong: if only knuth had used Lisp instead of that Mix langauge he made up! haha 05:54:54 sellout: your blog URL? 05:55:11 sellout was with the big lisp dogs! oh yeah 05:55:31 spiaggia: ok 05:55:37 -!- trebor_h` [n=user@dslb-084-058-244-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:56:32 fusss: businesss totally bores me, no wonder i'm poor! 05:57:00 sykopomp: Guy Steele 05:57:29 ....he didn't make Java 05:58:03 Sun did, and they made NIS and NIS+ 05:58:08 fusss: he actually just jumped over to Sun and helped write documentation for the specification 05:58:17 you kidding me? 05:58:25 awww, it was Gosling 05:58:28 my bad 05:58:59 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:59:17 zu22: the point of (M)MIX is so that you can see your algorithm, as bits that is 06:00:01 gotta go, a night of Win32 hackery awaits (configuring buncha expees as X terms :-) 06:00:15 Xming is awesome ^_^ 06:00:23 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.17/2008082909]"] 06:00:31 (except for the licensing fiasco and the "free downloads") 06:07:20 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-102-65.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 06:08:18 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:12:49 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:13:43 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-244-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:19:02 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 06:19:24 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 06:20:36 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-d73b561e144bcc5b] has joined #lisp 06:22:26 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-244-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:23:55 fusss: oh 06:26:05 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5ce30a3fe05c76ef] has joined #lisp 06:34:55 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.249.21] has joined #lisp 06:35:59 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.155.52] has joined #lisp 06:43:25 electronx [i=electron@unaffiliated/fatalerrorx] has joined #lisp 06:45:53 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.4] has joined #lisp 06:46:42 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:50:53 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has joined #lisp 06:51:05 -!- ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:53:10 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 06:53:24 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 06:59:30 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 07:04:15 RukuBites [n=user@c122-108-15-18.eburwd9.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:04:36 Where do I make a bug report that the latest slime is broken in alisp? 07:04:53 slime-devel@common-lisp.net 07:05:09 Do I have to be on the list? 07:05:28 don't know 07:05:59 -!- electronx [i=electron@unaffiliated/fatalerrorx] has quit [] 07:06:08 If it is convenient for anyone, try in *slime-scratch* evaluating (+ 1 'foo) with C-x C-e. The swank-debugger fails to come up. 07:06:19 It works fine in SBCL and Clojure. 07:07:52 Also, does anyone know what happened to the little "eval..." message in the emacs status bar? 07:08:11 works in slime from 2008-08-18 with acl express 07:08:21 Hmmm. 07:08:33 anekos [n=anekos@pl305.nas925.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 07:09:34 and doesn't work with cvs HEAD 07:09:38 must be broken 07:10:20 Well I can dig with diffs with that information, thanks. :) 07:11:21 there was a lot of changes since august 07:11:22 One thing that the past year has taught me is how to hack other people's buggy lisp code. :D 07:12:55 -!- hugo__ [n=hugo@89-180-246-213.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:13:04 hugo__ [n=hugo@89.181.118.155] has joined #lisp 07:14:43 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:19:08 manuel_ [n=manuel@e178086241.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:19:28 mega1` [n=mega@pool-04f39.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 07:21:20 Author: Helmut Eller 07:21:20 Date: Fri Sep 19 11:20:15 2008 +0000 07:21:20 07:21:23 That commit works 07:22:29 -!- Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:24:40 pkhuong_ [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:27:30 I think I will just do my standard slime behaviour, get a stable version that works and use it for as long as I can. 07:29:03 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 07:34:42 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-87-37.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 07:36:00 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:01 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:41:58 Hrm. I read a blurb on doubly linked lists in Lisp and that you rarely need them. What's up with DL lists in Lisp in general? 07:42:29 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@e178086241.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:42:52 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 07:43:03 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 07:43:18 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 07:46:19 tic: i dunno. seems like if you need one, you need one. 07:46:30 *Xach* has not yet needed one for any of his projects, though. 07:47:54 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 07:48:00 manuel_ [n=manuel@e178086241.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:48:11 tic: go and implement a deque with O(1) operations to get a feel for what's up with DL lists. Just don't expect the situation in Lisp to be different from the situation in, say, C. 07:53:34 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 07:55:01 -!- Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has left #lisp 07:58:35 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 07:58:38 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 07:59:12 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-37-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 08:00:41 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:03:02 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 08:03:26 Thanks. It's the thing about symbols and objects that I'm a bit uncertain of, specifically the part about having back and forward "pointers" plus a reference to the object on each node. No pointers, so what is a reference? 08:03:50 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:04:30 -!- spiderbyte is now known as away-mode 08:06:35 everything. 08:07:23 In computer science, references are datatypes which refer to an object elsewhere in memory and are used to construct a wide variety of data structures, such as linked lists. Most programming languages support some form of reference. 08:07:33 08:08:14 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 08:08:18 tic: a cons is a data structure with two things in it. works great for singly linked lists. if you want doubly linked, you can make something of your own with three things in it. 08:08:32 like a struct, or a clos class, or a vector. 08:10:55 alexott [n=alexott@pdbfw01.securecomputing.com] has joined #lisp 08:10:58 re all 08:11:57 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-d73b561e144bcc5b] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:15:59 trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 08:17:35 hello. 08:17:42 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-8d7428ffc708d320] has joined #lisp 08:21:23 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 08:25:25 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 08:26:04 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-8d7428ffc708d320] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:26:25 hello lispers 08:27:03 kiuma welcome to the lispdom of plenty 08:28:02 :) 08:28:37 just some small bugfix and I'll put the CLAW demo online :D 08:33:02 Xach, I know how a cons works. But you can't eg. pass around a name as a reference, because it is always evaluated before passed onto a function. Hrm. I guess I'll have to try first. 08:33:20 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 08:34:11 a name as a reference doesn't come into play 08:34:26 you can think of the cons as holding two references. 08:35:23 [data][pointer], the pointer refers to a location in memory (an address) 08:36:14 but okay, say you have (defvar *foo* 42) and want *bar* to point to it. Would you do something like (defvar *bar* '*foo*) ? 08:36:32 tic: it doesn't work that way. 08:37:02 Xach, exactly. hence my original confusion. 08:37:25 anyway, some experimentation will probably enlighten me. 08:37:27 tic: you say "exactly" like it has any bearing on implementing a doubly-linked list. 08:37:35 tic: consider (defvar *foo* '(1 2 3)) (defvar *bar* *foo*) (setf (car *bar*) 2) 08:37:45 H4ns, *hm* true. 08:38:11 Xach, point is how I should approach "pointers". H4ns cleared it up for me though. 08:38:23 tic: what text are you quoting from anyway? 08:38:27 We don't talk about pointers in Lisp. 08:38:57 lichtblau, quoting? text? none. and I know, hence "pointers". Lisp lingo is symbols and values, right? 08:39:15 alexott: are you the same alexott that was here briefly some 4 years ago? 08:39:20 Anyway, don't mind me. I'll work it out myself. 08:39:28 (and thanks) 08:40:11 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:40:16 How should I store 10GB of text, for essentially random access? Text with a lot of metadata associated with it. 08:40:17 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-168-121.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 08:40:29 mogunus: i would store it in a file. 08:40:39 spiaggia: may be ;-) i use this nick for a long time 08:41:18 tic: which symbols and values are involved in a cons? 08:41:36 tic: You were asking what a "reference" means in your definition of doubly-linked lists. That's a reasonable question when quoting someone else, and a pretty weird question if you made that word up yourself. 08:42:08 Xach: does a database not make sense? 08:42:17 lichtblau, yes, again, I'm sorry for taking up the channel's time. Don't mind me, I'm too tired and should really be experimenting at the REPL instead of asking you. Thanks though. 08:42:42 I recommend reading the wikipedia article on doubly-linked lists. 08:42:52 For example, it uses "reference" correctly for the previous/next references, and doesn't include the misconception that the data item is necessarily a reference, which is implicit in your original question. 08:43:07 tic: might enjoy reading this too ;) http://web.onetel.net.uk/~hibou/Doubly%20Linked%20Lists.html 08:43:42 mogunus: i suppose it depends on what operations you want to perform on the text. 08:43:49 mogunus: fast, that is. 08:44:05 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:44:12 alexott: So what brings you to #lisp? 08:44:19 lichtblau, if the data item lives elsewhere. But then again, it wouldn't matter if it were a mutable piece of data, such as a list. Again, too tired. :/ 08:44:25 locklace, read that one, actually. 08:44:26 Xach: query it quickly by particular bits of metadata 08:44:44 Xach: I'm not really familiar with the performance characteristics of databases, though. 08:45:11 spiaggia: i use it occasionaly, for my own projects 08:45:42 mogunus: what kind of answers would you get from a query? 08:46:24 locklace: well, I just read that and I didn't enjoy it. 08:46:35 spiaggia: & just remember, that i have erc installed in my emacs ;-) 08:46:47 Xach: a few thousand research papers, "these match your query, here is the text for them" 08:47:59 (And I can't blame tic for being confused if he read that.) 08:48:12 mogunus: oh. sounds like something you could do in many ways. there are a lot of ways to make indexes of search terms. 08:50:25 mogunus: some databases have add-ons for that. montezuma/lucene is kind of for that. 08:50:50 mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-089-023.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:51:16 Xach: okay, I'll look into those. thanks. 08:52:15 i think the book "managing gigabytes" might have some ideas too, but i'm not sure. 08:53:37 anyone know offhand how small of a memory footprint mysql can take? i am looking to move to a new vps but will have only 128mb ram 08:53:54 and i will run lighthttpd instead of apache to conserve memory 08:54:04 That would be awesome. Because all I want to do is avoid the sorts of mistakes that will kill my database-like thing with large loads. 08:54:05 zu22: uh, wrong channel? 08:54:18 lichtblau: sorry 08:54:32 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 08:54:37 Wow it has been a while since I lurked #lisp 08:55:43 spiaggia: why are you so interested? ;-) 08:56:02 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 08:56:35 lichtblau, (I definitely know my way around linked list and pointers in low-level languages, so it's not about those in general) 08:56:41 The other issue is that there are multiple datasets with different sets of metadata, so I need a general solution which isn't hard to configure for new sets of metadata. 08:57:03 Is there a canonical "real" use of doubly-linked lists? 08:57:31 -!- tmi [n=tmi@213.151.151.13] has quit ["."] 08:57:43 djkthx_ [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has joined #lisp 08:57:54 space efficient arrays w/ searches in two directions? but that's more the definition rather than a canonical real use case. 09:05:28 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 09:06:28 -!- zu22 [n=ubuntu@unaffiliated/zu22] has quit ["ircII EPIC4-2.2 -- Are we there yet?"] 09:07:03 -!- RukuBites [n=user@c122-108-15-18.eburwd9.vic.optusnet.com.au] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:07:59 UtopiahGHML [i=utopiah@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-116db162363033c3] has joined #lisp 09:08:45 hi #lisp , I was checking wikimatrix.org and didn't see Cliki in it 09:08:55 -!- djkthx [n=yacin@glug.id.iit.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:09:45 and no Lisp based wiki appear in the wizard so ... I guess it could fill a need maybe :) 09:10:05 perhaps that's because only two or three people in the world would dare running it 09:10:10 i don't think it's good marketing to cite cliki as an example of lisp software. 09:10:18 UtopiahGHML: i think cliki is not really a contender to any real, deployable wiki engine. 09:10:33 well it's a running wiki in Lisp, isn't it? 09:10:40 UtopiahGHML: so? 09:10:47 the yugo is a car from yugoslavia 09:10:56 forget it, have a nice day 09:11:06 kiwi, on the other hand, once its sources are available... :-) 09:11:07 *H4ns* will 09:11:32 lichtblau, I love the poem from the future. :) 09:12:08 unwritten software has no bugs and executes at speed of mouth 09:13:55 *Xach* has lots of wonderful unwritten software 09:14:34 *H4ns* also has tons of admirable unbuilt hardware! 09:14:46 tic, you've probably found example implementations to study too, but if not, here's the basic idea: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/4f1e87ee316077ec?dmode=source 09:15:33 -!- UtopiahGHML [i=utopiah@gateway/shell/blinkenshell.org/x-116db162363033c3] has left #lisp 09:17:28 locklace, right. 09:17:35 *tic* wishes rydis was still around. :/ 09:18:53 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-159-199.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 09:19:38 tic: Did they find out who killed him? 09:19:53 -!- alexott [n=alexott@pdbfw01.securecomputing.com] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 09:20:29 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:21:31 Jabberwockey: http://xach.livejournal.com/115013.html?thread=202821#t202821 09:22:31 Xach: Thanks. 09:23:07 Jabberwockey, summary at http://mikael.jansson.be/rydis/what - alas only in Swedish. 09:23:28 "no sign of crime, everything points at an accident". most likely he tripped and fell into the water. 09:23:36 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:24:12 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:24:42 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:24:49 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-135-197.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:24:55 -!- cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:25:08 cmm [n=cmm@bzq-79-182-117-83.red.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:23 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@e178086241.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [No route to host] 09:25:33 tic: Mpf. 09:25:56 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:10 Jabberwockey, Mpf? 09:26:54 tic: German expression of helplessness, especially in finding something appropriate to say. 09:29:02 Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:29:38 is it possible in general to access other package-symbols by :: - without exporting or (:use )? 09:30:14 trebor_win: yes. 09:30:22 (isn't that the entire point of :: ?) 09:30:39 trebor_win: the package must exist at read time, though. 09:31:45 if i (:use ) i can not access though? 09:32:09 if it is unexported 09:32:16 trebor_win: you need to export the symbols from for unqualified access 09:32:17 i only can access exported one. 09:32:28 (i am too slow in typing ;) 09:32:29 trebor_win: that is the point. 09:34:36 exported ones are those in (defpackage ... (:export ...) ) plus the ones i do (export (find ...) '), right? 09:34:54 trebor_win: correct 09:35:02 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-140-098.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:35:19 you also can import symbols 09:36:32 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:36:40 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 09:37:15 good idea, thanks. i am not confused, but not comfortable either. 09:39:03 do you create an extra-source file if you have to use symbols/defuns/classes from 2 packages (to keep each of them "clean")? 09:40:33 packages don't deal with classes, functions, whatever, except symbols 09:41:18 trebor_win: i don't quite understand, but why i do is group my functionality into packages that export their api, then use these symbols with explicit qualification. i create all my packages early in the compilation in a package.lisp so that i can use all packages in all files. 09:44:46 -!- agemo [n=jovdmeer@igwe16.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:44:57 agemo [n=jovdmeer@igwe16.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 09:45:56 avida [n=amani@c-71-198-246-95.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:19 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 09:48:24 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-110-137.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:49:08 i only have 3 (working) packages so far (novice you know) and now new functionality needs 2 packages for the first time. however - whatever i will do now to put it together, in some weeks it will show up that it was the wrong way to do it ;) 09:50:26 trebor_win: you can always refactor later. not importing symbol with :use will make it easier, though. 09:53:47 i wanted to avoid the errors i made in all my previous languages (evolution in style and organisation) - but you are right i just put it together somehow (::) first ;) thanks 09:53:58 trebor_win: do not use :: 09:54:56 i thought first use :: than after finishing refactor using im/export, no? 09:55:15 mulligan [n=user@75-81.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has joined #lisp 09:55:23 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:55:59 trebor_win: do as you like, but when you are using packages, why not put those symbols that you want to export into their export lists? 09:57:10 h4ns: I plan to change the UNSUPPORTED macro in usocket-0.4 from a SIGNAL to a CERROR because the latter will be visible to REPL users. 09:57:24 do you need to adjust hunchentoot for that? 09:57:47 ehu: i don't think so, no. i can always hack hunchentoot to make this work, so go ahead. 09:58:11 ok. 09:59:08 i like it bottom-top (somehow). i do new things in scratch-.lisp. if they work, i tidy them up and put them into . so my idea was to use :: till finishing and then when i know what symbols i need i will put them into the export-list (or an export-function) automatically. 09:59:30 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 09:59:43 trebor_win: good. 10:00:22 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:00:34 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:02:07 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:03:05 h4ns: I suddenly thought that we could make deadline be partially supported on most implementations: an error can be raised by WAIT-FOR-INPUT. 10:03:14 (even if no other functions raise it) 10:03:58 ehu: certainly - in fact, my first deadline implementation for ccl worked like that, but gary byers did not like it because of the extra system call involved :) 10:06:45 heh. ok. I need to research the error required for mapping because of deadlines. I don't have a mapping installed currently. Is CCL the only implementation to support deadline for now? 10:06:56 eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has joined #lisp 10:07:01 ehu: yes. 10:07:11 ok. 10:07:14 *ehu* notes that. 10:09:44 -!- bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:11:07 bdowning [n=bdowning@c-98-212-138-194.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:18 manic12_ [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:12:46 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 10:13:14 -!- avida [n=amani@beigetower/jaene] has quit [] 10:14:36 avida [n=amani@c-71-198-246-95.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:16:22 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 10:17:46 dabr [n=dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #lisp 10:18:17 is there a with-* like macro to change temporarily the value of a dynamic variable ? (like *standard-output*) 10:18:45 kuwabara: LET 10:19:28 jdz: hmmm... from sbcl, LET generates a warning about the variable being treated as a lexical variable. 10:20:01 maybe it was another problem with my code. I'll try again. 10:20:03 kuwabara: then it means that your dynamic variable is not dynamic at all. 10:20:22 kuwabara: do you have a DEFPARAMETER or DEFVAR for that variable? 10:20:33 -!- dabr [n=dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit [Client Quit] 10:20:47 dabr [n=dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has joined #lisp 10:23:27 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-168-121.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:24:10 alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:24:42 -!- mulligan [n=user@75-81.wlan.rz.uni-potsdam.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:26:01 jdz: yes, but probably the defvar form was not evaluated yet. now it works 10:26:48 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:30:29 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:33:43 -!- avida [n=amani@beigetower/jaene] has quit [] 10:34:52 ths [n=ths@p549AF1CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:36:26 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:38:21 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.45.135] has quit [] 10:40:39 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X65f3.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:48:28 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:49:20 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:49:57 do most compilers do anything significant with :type information provided in a class slot definition? 10:50:27 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 10:52:18 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 10:53:07 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 10:55:52 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 10:57:16 locklace: not really 10:57:26 some do runtime type checks 10:58:24 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:59:44 -!- away-mode is now known as mimies 11:03:18 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.136.77] has joined #lisp 11:06:40 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 11:06:48 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-31-53.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 11:09:48 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit [Client Quit] 11:11:28 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:11:32 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.136.77] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:11:35 lispm_: I actually think SBCL uses it for optimization 11:12:13 or is that considered non-significant? 11:13:09 think or it actually uses it? 11:13:11 sbcl uses them only for type checks in safe code 11:13:42 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 11:13:43 using them for optimization would be hard due to possibility of class redefinition 11:15:19 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:15:25 -!- splittist [n=splittis@125.214.249.195] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 11:16:09 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.136.77] has joined #lisp 11:16:45 ah. sure. I hadn't considered that. 11:17:05 jsnell: how it deals with ftype declared functions? 11:18:25 Bzek_ [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-37.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 11:19:23 <_deepfire> http://random-state.net/log/3396166128.html is somewhat relevant 11:19:41 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 11:22:29 the difference is that class redefinition with an incompatible :type for some slots must be allowed, while the consequences of resetting a ftype declaration are unspecified 11:26:15 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 11:26:45 xinitrc [n=martin@theorie-dyn-29-166.Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE] has joined #lisp 11:27:02 envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has joined #lisp 11:29:59 sad0ur_ [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has joined #lisp 11:30:49 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-31-53.kosnet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:35:15 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 11:38:05 _deepfire: that looks interesting 11:39:34 -!- sad0ur [n=sad0ur@psi.cz] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:41:08 -!- PriceChild [i=pricechi@freenode/staff/ubuntu.member.pricechild] has quit ["leaving"] 11:41:39 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:42:51 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:45:48 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:49:02 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.6] has joined #lisp 11:52:14 -!- dmiles [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:55:44 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 11:56:01 Happy Birthday, Lisp, btw. 11:56:32 may you see another interesting 50 years! 11:57:07 +1 11:57:21 long live lisp! 11:58:28 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@howells.doc.gold.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:58:48 In hunchentoot, Edi use a variable named *server*, but it is actually a local (lexical) variable, neither global nor special variable. Is that right way to use a start mark?? http://www.cliki.net/Naming%20conventions 11:58:49 tomoyuki28jp, memo from beach: I didn't suggest that the generated code should be a function, only deftag. 12:00:11 *foo* is only used for special variables - local or global, but not for lexical - that's the convention 12:00:48 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:00:59 mozzyb [n=mozzyb@248.80-203-57.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 12:02:06 lispm_: local var is neither global nor special var, right? 12:03:03 lispm_: My understanding is we should use a star mark for special or global var, but not for local or lexical. Is that correct? If this is correct, Edi is wrong to put a start mark in this case? 12:03:40 you can have local special vars 12:04:51 (let ((foo 3)) (declare (special foo)) foo) 12:05:28 so you might write that: (let ((*foo* 3)) (declare (special *foo*)) *foo*) 12:06:39 global vars in Common Lisp introduced by DEFPARAMETER or DEFVAR are always declared to be special, so it is quite important to use the *FOO* convention there 12:07:34 lispm_: What is the benefit to declare the local var as special var? 12:08:02 you get dynamic binding 12:08:17 lispm_: I see. 12:08:57 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB97D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:08:57 lispm_: Edi just does (let ((*server* server) ...) and he does not declare the var as a special. In this case, he should not put a star mark? 12:09:07 avida [n=amani@c-71-198-246-95.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:09:42 tomoyuki28jp: the point is that the variable is declared as special somewhere else 12:10:13 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9525.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:10:14 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 12:10:16 tomoyuki28jp: that's why you need to put asterisks around it - so people looking at the code see that the binding is dinamic 12:10:28 dynamic even 12:10:39 there is no (DEFVAR *server* ...) or (DEFPARAMETER *server* ...) in the sources? 12:10:48 jdz: I couldn't find the place he declared it as a special. Does he really do? 12:10:50 see specials.lisp 12:11:11 -!- mozzyb [n=mozzyb@248.80-203-57.nextgentel.com] has quit ["leaving"] 12:11:25 use your editor to find the source of it :) 12:11:36 if it is a global variable m-. will look it up 12:12:34 oh, he does... In macro form... 12:12:43 Thanks, guys.. 12:16:44 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:17:30 is there a specific day of lisp's 50 ann.? 12:17:50 athos [n=philipp@p54B85DF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:18:03 trebor_win: yesterday? 12:20:44 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:21:22 is there a an url/specific site about 50 years of lisp (which i can send to some friends/colleques)? 12:21:55 http://www.lisp50.org/ 12:25:15 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:29:30 athos_ [n=philipp@p54B85415.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:56 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B85DF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 12:30:59 -!- athos_ is now known as athos 12:31:13 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-153.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:32:04 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:32:43 -!- avida [n=amani@beigetower/jaene] has quit [] 12:33:23 Re Bob Hutchison on sbcl-devel/openmcl-devel: is there any section of ANSI or the MOP which defines the consequences when a method is added to a standardized generic function (in this case, MAKE-INSTANCE) which does not implement what that generic function is expected to do (in this case, allocate and initialize a new instance of the given class)? 12:36:37 timor [n=icke@w0160.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 12:42:02 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:43:32 haiwei [n=haiwei@221.219.123.44] has joined #lisp 12:57:16 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit ["Am I missing an eyebrow?"] 12:58:37 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 13:00:49 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.212.27] has joined #lisp 13:01:58 willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 13:09:04 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:10:33 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:13:44 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:14:25 sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.4.30.92] has joined #lisp 13:14:36 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl305.nas925.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving.."] 13:15:37 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:18:22 timor1 [n=martin@w0160.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 13:18:26 -!- timor1 [n=martin@w0160.dip.tu-dresden.de] has left #lisp 13:21:37 <_deepfire> It's sad that format's logical block prefixes/suffixes must be constant. 13:21:49 Pala-Wan [n=tc-rucho@190.191.161.86] has joined #lisp 13:21:55 hi 13:25:06 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:25:47 -!- kreuter [n=kreuter@pool-96-252-14-107.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:26:16 hello Pala-Wan 13:26:53 krtr [i=3f6b5b63@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f4e4da87c1ca0990] has joined #lisp 13:26:54 hello spiaggia, could you lend me a hand with file interaction in Common Lisp? 13:27:14 I need to send strings and read the response on a serial device 13:27:24 Pala-Wan: Ask your question to everyone. 13:27:35 ok, here it goes 13:28:48 if you want to paste code, use lisppaste! 13:28:54 minion: tell Pala-Wan about lisppaste 13:28:55 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 13:28:56 I have a serial device located in /dev/ttyACM0, I need to send strings to it and read the response. The problem is that there is no EOF, and haven't found a way to read it from common lisp. The repl keeps busy no matter what and does not seem to be doing anything. 13:29:15 I've managed to get what I wanted with perl, but I want to do it with Common Lisp 13:29:25 I'll paste the perl code in lisppaste, just a second 13:29:31 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 13:29:47 Pala-Wan: how about pasting the lisp code too? 13:29:55 Pala-Wan: i'm curious which functions you tried and what didn't work 13:30:15 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:30:22 http://rafb.net/p/HIkAz257.html 13:30:52 Xach: I have no working read function for it 13:31:06 Pala-Wan: i'd like to see what you tried, even if it did not work 13:31:11 ok 13:31:14 -!- krtr [i=3f6b5b63@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-f4e4da87c1ca0990] has left #lisp 13:31:16 <_deepfire> spiaggia, good day 13:31:17 Pala-Wan: it will help guide suggestions for new things to try 13:31:36 hey _deepfire, what's up? 13:31:51 <_deepfire> spiaggia, may I talk to you in private? 13:31:52 Xach: Maybe this looks familiar to you ^_^ http://paste.lisp.org/display/5461 Annotation nº 4 13:32:11 _deepfire: sure 13:32:20 Xach: I tried that and some stuff I thought about but nothing worked 13:32:56 Good morning. 13:33:04 Pala-Wan: the read function doesn't read a line, you know 13:33:06 Xach: I've even tried executing the cat command from the repl (which succeed in executing it but kept the repl busy) 13:33:16 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.212.27] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:33:44 Pala-Wan: that paste is very different from what you want to do. 13:33:49 hmm 13:34:00 Pala-Wan: you need to open the stream in read-write mode and use read-line on it. 13:34:05 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.204.85] has joined #lisp 13:34:07 and write-line 13:34:22 you can check for patterns in the lines that are returned, just like you did in the perl script. 13:35:28 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-231.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:35:52 checking.. 13:35:56 Yesterday was 15 hours of awesome. 13:36:21 sellout: nice. 13:36:24 videos or i didn't happen 13:36:25 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-231.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 13:36:30 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-231.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:37:16 antifuchs: It was recorded ... hopefully it'll be posted somewhere. 13:37:33 excellent 13:37:43 lisp or gtfo 13:37:55 sellout: sounds like an exhausting day 13:38:39 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5ce30a3fe05c76ef] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:38:46 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 13:38:57 Xach: It was. The last hour and a half of the conference I was having a bit of trouble. Then dinner added another 2.5 hours after that. 13:39:31 Rich Hickey got an amazing reception. 13:39:47 H4ns, for hunchentoot ssl, can I use server.crt and server.key as :ssl-certificate-file and :ssl-privatekey-file that require no password ? I'm having Can't load RSA private key file /etc/apache/ssl/server.key thought I've changed permissinos 13:40:10 lukego stood up and announced that it was the best talk he's ever heard at any lisp conference, and it makes him want to come back to lisp. 13:40:27 kiuma: yes, password keys should just work. can't try myself atm, though. 13:40:49 mmm... 13:40:51 sellout: was it related to the boston lisp talk? 13:40:52 Xach: I've tried this on a garbage file and worked, but it just does not work with the serial device, any hint? (with-open-file (stream file :direction :io :if-exists :append) (read-line stream nil stream)) 13:41:10 Pala-Wan: in what way does it not work? 13:41:10 sweet. now I really want videos (: 13:41:11 Xach: It was like a 45 minute version of the same content. 13:41:31 sellout: i wonder if when luke says that he means "come back to clojure" 13:42:00 Xach: "clojure is a lisp" 13:42:03 I was concerned it wasn't coming across well. I kept thinking "oh, he's leaving X out and Y out ..." but apparently it still worked :) 13:42:11 Xach: what hans said :) 13:42:16 Xach: in that it keeps the repl busy and shows nothing. I have to abort the command. I even send input from another shell to the serial device so the repl get's some data back but nothing 13:42:19 neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has joined #lisp 13:42:29 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 13:42:43 I wish I had gotten to talk to Will Clinger, though. He seemed to disappear right after the panel. 13:43:10 At least he's physically local. 13:43:19 Pala-Wan: if i were you, i would try translating your perl script and do the same things it does. 13:43:24 Pala-Wan: instead of doing half of what it does 13:43:28 or one tenth 13:43:52 H4ns: sure, but luke coming back to lisp in the form of clojure has fewer immediate benefits for me personally. 13:43:56 H4ns, sorry for fud, just wrong path 13:44:00 i'm jealous of whatever community he joins! 13:44:09 Xach: :) 13:44:11 /topic #lisp: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language. Oh, and also clojure, that new thing Luke likes. 13:44:19 haha 13:45:16 hmm, is there an arglist processing function or library floating around? i find myself wanting to generate an ignore declaration for all variables in an arbitrary argument list. 13:45:37 (any other suggestions welcome too) 13:45:56 Xach: sure, but I had to make sure the reading bit worked. I'm getting something right now, seems that the serial device output was being captured by some other process, need to make sure though 13:47:26 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 13:48:52 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 13:49:20 *Xach* withdraws his want 13:49:24 dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:49:45 Xach: if it doesn't exist yet, it would seem like a library tcr ought to write 13:50:07 lichtblau: i'm strongly in favor of that notion 13:50:27 the CL ansi-tests.. do they seem to detect when lisp is being too permisive about not throwing type errors? 13:50:42 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 13:51:38 clhs zerop 13:51:38 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_zerop.htm 13:52:27 ZEROP must or Should signal an error of type type-error if number is not a number? 13:53:35 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 13:53:53 -!- Buganini [n=buganini@cnmc12.hs.ntnu.edu.tw] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:53:54 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 13:53:58 Buganini [n=buganini@cnmc12.hs.ntnu.edu.tw] has joined #lisp 13:54:34 dmiles_afk: think of this as a chance to learn to read the spec carefully 13:55:03 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 13:59:41 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:00:50 rme [n=rme@12.191.171.47] has joined #lisp 14:00:56 antgreen [n=green@bas2-toronto06-1242511347.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:03:51 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 14:06:00 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:06:00 -!- rme [n=rme@12.191.171.47] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:07:49 -!- pkhuong_ is now known as pkhuong 14:08:31 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 14:10:11 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4783C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:13:50 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B85415.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:14:12 athos [n=philipp@p54B85415.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:14:23 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 14:15:36 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2C448.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:43 Xach: I've been checking the hyperspec about read-line, checked some stuff I've found googling, but still haven't found a way to read beyond the first line... any hint? 14:17:05 Pala-Wan: same as in perl: loop! 14:20:07 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has quit ["bbl"] 14:21:33 oh, by the way, I have an end-of-file exception at eof, despite my ":eof-error-p nil". any idea ? 14:21:46 kuwabara: for what function? 14:21:56 Xach: read 14:22:06 READ does not use keyword arguments. 14:22:13 I'm somewhat lost... read-line only takes as arguments stream eof-error-p eof-value and recursive-p. Loop would only make it read the same line again and again, am I wrong?.. :S 14:22:29 Pala-Wan: yes, you're wrong. a stream has state. reading from it advances through it. 14:22:37 kuwabara: how did you call READ? 14:22:48 Xach: oooooooh it explain everything (including that strange display of the eof-error-p value) 14:22:56 Xach: thanks 14:23:33 no problem 14:25:44 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4780A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:28:03 Pala-Wan: here's an untested translation of your working perl script... 14:28:24 Xach pasted "dialer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68939 14:28:43 oops, missed the write-line "ERROR" bit. 14:29:01 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:31:04 let inside loop, Xach? 14:31:26 salex: it's the sequel to let over lambda. 14:31:30 For more info on the pretty printer system check out http://dspace.mit.edu/handle/1721.1/6503 in paricular ceck our pretty printing control variables and the functions they affect. (About the same as regular print) 14:31:56 salex: my simple loops look like that rather a lot. 14:32:09 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:32:21 -!- willb [n=wibenton@h69-129-204-3.mdsnwi.broadband.dynamic.tds.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:32:51 huh. I guess I find (loop for line = ... ) more idiomatic for something like that, particularly with the tests 14:33:10 Xach is actually an iterate fan, he just doesn't know it yet. 14:33:12 i don't really like using the conditionals in LOOP for more than a single case. 14:34:19 Yeah, I get that, and I tend to avoid them if they get complicated. But I would avoid the let also, cause it always makes me wonder why it was done 14:34:52 fwiw, i didn't see the perl version 14:35:08 even in the absence of the perl version, i would write it approximately like that. 14:35:21 if it was only for internal consumption by me, i would probably use my zpb:for-each-line 14:35:33 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B85415.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 14:35:39 yeah, i get that (just don't know how direct a translation it was) 14:35:45 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.204.85] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:35:50 i'm just curious about the avoiding for/while in there 14:35:51 http://rafb.net/p/HIkAz257.html is the perl version 14:35:58 not the (when ..) vs when 14:36:09 delYsid [n=user@chello084115136207.3.graz.surfer.at] has joined #lisp 14:36:50 salex: when i think a loop will be mostly body and a little stepping, i often start out with a simple loop. 14:37:05 if it gets trickier (but still within loop sanity) i sometimes switch over 14:37:27 i don't tend to write a lot of (loop for do ) 14:37:35 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 14:37:39 Xach: ok, after messing with the repl for a while, I got it working. But still, why does the same read-line command with same parameters work different when called inside a loop? that's driving me nuts 14:37:48 The greatest weakness of loop is that variables declared in one loop aren't visible in a nested toop. 14:37:55 Pala-Wan: state 14:38:11 Pala-Wan: the stream keeps track of a position and advances it for every read-line 14:38:15 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-102-65.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:38:24 Pala-Wan: this is quite common in many languages 14:38:34 Pala-Wan: your perl does the same thing: <> returns new stuff each time. 14:39:03 -!- timor [n=icke@w0160.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:39:27 Xach: as far as I knew, the <> thing was a way to "capture" the output in a single var, so as long as it was non nil it would do something with it 14:39:36 seems that concept was wrong 14:39:48 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.196.43] has joined #lisp 14:39:50 Pala-Wan: now you know better. it's a kind of "read one line from the current stream" operator. 14:40:08 scary 14:40:08 there's more magic to it, but that's the gist 14:40:56 don't be frightened! it's quite handy. 14:41:26 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 14:43:20 Xach: iow something like 14:43:21 salex annotated #68939 with "also untested: what I was talking about" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68939#1 14:43:39 as it doesn't mix up the line reading logic with the searching 14:43:43 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:43:43 anyway, i was just curious 14:44:01 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB97D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 14:44:07 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB97D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 14:44:13 salex: if i were gonna read like that, i'd use (read-line stream nil) while line do ... 14:44:38 and i always find it a little ugly to mix non-loop conditionals with "normal" conditionals at the toplevel. 14:44:55 i guess that's the trade off 14:45:01 that is, things like (loop ... do (when ...)) instead of (loop ... when ...) 14:45:26 and i can never get (loop ... if ... else ...) right, so i avoid it entirely 14:45:32 ah, right 14:45:50 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:46:11 well, i was trying to avoid too many conditionals. this ones simple enough in practice i'd probably do it with loop tests anyway 14:46:22 but that can get ugly, agreed 14:46:51 i also have trouble getting different emacses to be consistent about indentation 14:46:59 for LOOP, that is 14:47:27 right. 14:48:36 that is a pain 14:48:52 so use iterate.. 14:49:08 milanj [n=milan@79.101.250.193] has joined #lisp 14:49:21 iterate is ok. some times you don't want to force the dependency 14:49:35 and7229 [n=Miranda@studbud.com.ua] has joined #lisp 14:50:12 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:53:22 to run sbcl with a custom rc file is it sufficient to call `sbcl cusom.lisp` ? 14:53:23 *custom 14:53:36 kreuter [i=3f6b5b63@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bd76719b385703d1] has joined #lisp 14:54:06 kiuma: no. see the sbcl manual for how to do it. 14:54:10 that is, "man sbcl" 14:54:17 k thx 14:54:25 kiuma: one way is with --userinit custom.lisp 14:54:59 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:55:16 mega1`: thanks for the fix! 14:57:49 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:58:09 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:58:37 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:58:53 Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has joined #lisp 15:00:04 BrianRice [n=briantri@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:00:52 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 15:02:28 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@221.219.123.44] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:03:18 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 15:05:16 incidentally, I just wrote a short article comparing LOOP and ITERATE: http://items.sjbach.com/211/comparing-loop-and-iterate 15:05:47 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:06:35 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:06:58 Hi. I am having trouble printing a local variable' value during recursion. When tracing the function, while evaluation, I can see that the variables depth and nodes-expanded have legal values but when I try to print them, they are printed as nil. 15:07:05 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.196.43] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:07:43 sykopomp|class [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 15:07:49 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 15:07:51 do you know what's this issue with permissinos ? debugger invoked on a SB-BSD-SOCKETS:SOCKET-ERROR in thread #:Socket error in "bind": 13 (Permission denied) 15:07:54 Goan pasted "recursion problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68941 15:07:54 morning, gentlemen 15:08:06 I tried hunchentoot on 4343 15:08:10 S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has joined #lisp 15:08:25 kiuma: is there already somebody serving on 4343? 15:08:31 varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 15:08:39 kreuter: if there is, at least on sbcl, it will say that 15:08:44 no I don't think , let me check 15:08:46 kiuma: which OS? 15:08:53 gentoo linux 15:09:01 I think windows may reserve a different port range for privileged users 15:09:11 ah, okay, it should generally only reserve up to 1024 then 15:09:23 no selinux or anything of that sort? 15:09:29 unless you have some interesting security restrictions 15:10:07 Goan: i mean, it is obvious that you don't read books, but can't you at least look at some other source code to learn some basic patterns? 15:10:13 kiuma: if you try to listen with, say, netcat on the same port with the same user, what happens? 15:10:15 Goan: what you pasted is just gibberish. 15:10:23 if something is already listening, you will get EADDRINUSE, not EPERM. 15:10:36 rsynnott, thx I try 15:10:39 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit ["leaving"] 15:10:41 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 15:11:06 -!- neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:11:10 -!- sellout [n=greg@12.191.171.57] has quit [] 15:11:14 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:14:16 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.136.77] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:15:04 -!- sebaseba [n=carnieri@189.4.30.92] has quit [] 15:15:37 tmh [n=thomas@pdpc/supporter/sustaining/tmh] has joined #lisp 15:15:43 Greetings! 15:16:30 hello 15:17:03 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 15:17:10 Ah, I was going to ask a question, but now I'm looking at my code and deciding that maybe I'll just lurk. 15:18:33 BrianRice` [n=water@c-98-225-51-174.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:20:15 sellout [n=greg@12.191.171.57] has joined #lisp 15:21:34 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 15:22:46 pjb [n=chatzill@212.145.149.100] has joined #lisp 15:23:58 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:24:20 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:26:51 -!- sellout [n=greg@12.191.171.57] has quit [] 15:29:35 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 15:30:50 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:31:55 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5a70b2faec4a6ed1] has joined #lisp 15:31:56 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.192.181] has joined #lisp 15:33:40 sebaseba [n=carnieri@201.86.7.227.adsl.gvt.net.br] has joined #lisp 15:35:34 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:42:11 -!- fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:42:28 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 15:42:55 Good evening. 15:43:10 fihi09 [n=user@pool-96-224-164-180.nycmny.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:45 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:49:14 me-so-stupid [n=semka@homeuser198-8.ccl.perm.ru] has joined #lisp 15:50:51 -!- BrianRice is now known as BrianRice-mb 15:51:01 -!- BrianRice` is now known as BrianRice 15:52:20 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 15:53:22 -!- ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:55:20 tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:57:24 Good evening! 15:57:35 hey pjb, what's up? 15:57:52 I'm on holidays in Spain :-) 15:58:20 Last time you were there was for work, right? 15:58:40 -!- proq [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:58:57 Well now I consider it to be my "home", and I'm in France only for work. 15:59:08 Barcelona was it? 15:59:30 <3 Barcelon 15:59:31 More southward! La Manga del Mar Menor, near Cartagena, Murcia. 15:59:32 nice city 15:59:56 erm, Barcelona I mean, I've not been to La Manga del Mar Menor 16:00:03 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:00:08 pjb: Sorry, misremembered. 16:00:13 salex: idem! 16:01:33 No problem ;-) http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/La_Manga 16:02:15 It's amazing how much I understand in that article. 16:02:30 And of course: http://pjb.ogamita.org/lamanga/index.html 16:02:53 beach: it's unsurprising how little I do :( 16:03:04 actaull, htat's not true. context helps a lot 16:03:07 Yes, Both Spanish and French are 80% latin, so 64% in common. 16:03:29 pjb: er, I contest your calculations. 16:03:51 78.2% of all statistics are pulled out of butts. 16:03:58 All statistics are invented, but you cannot contest that 0.8 * 0.8 = 0.64 16:04:09 I'll grant you that. 16:04:10 pjb: you assume that they are the same subset 16:04:21 that doesn't make it a sensible computation, pjb 16:04:41 -!- dabr [n=dabr@62-2-164-173.static.cablecom.ch] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:04:45 If they were the same subset, that'd make 80% in common. I'm assuming a random selection. 16:04:56 which is unlikely 16:05:02 But you're right that there are more probability for a higher correlation. 16:05:09 pjb: I mean the same number of words, for instance. 16:05:40 same parts of latin being droped, and not taking into account further cross-polinization. 16:05:54 right. 16:06:46 considering i speak neither language, really, i can make out a fair bit of it. 16:06:55 Which is funny, in that case, because you can see (or hear) when words crossed the border oraly or written. 16:08:29 If I werent a CS professor I would probably study etymology or linguistics. 16:08:38 wandering around spain I found I hadn't really realized how much I was getting from written spanish until I ran into written basque 16:08:55 ethymology? 16:09:55 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4594B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:10:00 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:10:18 vasa [n=vasa@mm-219-188-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 16:11:37 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4783C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:12:04 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 16:12:29 trebor_w_ [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 16:14:09 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:14:51 Dinner, I'll be back later. 16:15:39 bon appetite 16:15:52 -!- tritchey_ [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:16:09 *younder* relects on the term idiot 16:18:16 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [No route to host] 16:18:17 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 16:21:25 soverton [n=user@75.145.221.229] has joined #lisp 16:23:25 Can someone please point me towards a comprehensive clim/mcclim tutorial or source code which demonstrates the loading of bitmap files? 16:24:27 -!- varjag [n=eugene@122.62-97-226.bkkb.no] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:25:15 mcclim/Examples/image-viewer.lisp perhaps? 16:25:24 -!- xan [n=xan@cs78225040.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:26:36 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 16:26:37 lichtblau: I can't seem to get that code to work. I mean, it runs, but it won't load jpeg, gif, or xpm as advertised. 16:26:40 lichtblau: image viewing didn't work for me the last time I tried it. perhaps it's time to try again. 16:26:44 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 16:26:56 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-59-156.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 16:27:01 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 16:29:03 I change my answer to "no". 16:29:20 lichtblau: lol 16:29:32 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.152.124] has joined #lisp 16:29:44 -!- trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:29:55 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 16:30:19 the closure web browser ostensibly displays bitmaps, so it should be possible. I suppose I could pore over that code. 16:31:12 have you tried the cl-imagemagic frontend? It is quite powerfull 16:31:51 -!- sykopomp|class [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has left #lisp 16:31:56 -!- trebor_w_ [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:33:32 younder: no, I have not. Does it integrate with clim? 16:33:44 Haven't tried 16:34:11 context is rarely a concern for younder. 16:34:57 well it might help, in that if you can get the image viewing stuff to work with a randomly initialized array, the imagemagic frontend woudl give you I/O 16:35:10 Well it's a image, I can't see why not. 16:35:24 ths_ [n=ths@p549AE8E0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:35:39 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:36:22 Okay, I just tried it, and the image-viewer worked for me. 16:36:34 timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 16:36:38 lichtblau: what version of mcclim are you using? 16:36:41 fog of chat.. 16:36:54 -!- timor1 [n=martin@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has left #lisp 16:37:13 a recentish CVS checkout 16:38:27 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-5a70b2faec4a6ed1] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:38:30 lichtblau: ah. I should perhaps get that instead of using the asdf-install version. I'm using mcclim ver. 0.9.6. 16:38:31 More precisely, I tried a .gif and that works, but now I also tried a .jpg and that didn't draw. 16:38:45 -!- dan_b [n=dan@82-68-20-86.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:38:48 jfincher [n=jfincher@cpe-72-135-16-126.kc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 16:39:03 lichtblau: did it give you a message like "Format JPEG not supported"? 16:39:42 Ah, no. Try loading the asdf systems MCCLIM-GIF-BITMAPS and MCCLIM-JPEG-BITMAPS in addition to MCCLIM and CLIM-EXAMPLES. 16:40:09 ok, I'd like to gather some statistics about CLOS, but I don't have even remotely the level of knowledge necessary to do so. Anyone mind assisting? I want to look at all the generic functions in the system and tally which ones have method specializations on one argument, which have method specializations on two arguments, etc. 16:40:46 lichtblau: I knew I was leaving out a step. I'll try that. Thanks 16:41:33 jfincher: list-all-packages -> do-symbols -> fboundp -> typep 'generic-function -> mop:generic-function-methods, etc 16:41:44 yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc60.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 16:43:09 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:43:28 Soulman [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 16:43:38 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 16:44:37 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:45:30 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.192.181] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:47:11 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF1CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:49:23 -!- Bzek_ [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-37.kosnet.ru] has quit [Client Quit] 16:49:47 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:07 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:50:43 jtsigma [n=jtsigma@69.106.102.97] has joined #lisp 16:51:13 -!- jtsigma [n=jtsigma@69.106.102.97] has left #lisp 16:52:05 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 16:52:38 -!- Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:52:51 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 16:52:53 dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has joined #lisp 16:54:13 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-72-232.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 16:55:26 lichtblau: Okay, now I'm getting the same results as you. GIF works, JPEG doesn't draw. At least that's something. :) 16:55:36 -!- dkcl [n=dkcl@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:56:39 is GIF skippy-powered? 16:56:53 *beach* thinks McCLIM needs some loving care. 16:56:56 lichtblau: where can I look up the meaning of those symbols so I can write the code using them? 16:57:30 http://l1sp.org/cl/list-all-packages # and so on 16:57:31 beach: last i checked, it was borked on os x too. didn't look into it much thouhg 16:57:51 *sigh* 16:57:56 lichtblau: thanks 16:57:56 (i mean mcclim in general, not the image viewer) someone else was having troubles 16:58:04 dunno if it was clx related, might be 16:58:20 salex: that's another library that needs care. 16:58:34 it was certainly a display problme. it would build & run, but no display 16:58:37 so might be clx 16:59:12 http://l1sp.org/mop/generic-function-methods # and I expected that to work, but it didn't. I'm probably missing something 16:59:21 -!- mega1` [n=mega@pool-04f39.externet.hu] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:00:07 Xach: yes. 17:00:10 In fact, I got a skippy error on my very first test image. :-) 17:00:17 aiee 17:00:24 i will work on zjpeg some day. 17:01:30 lichtblau: ah, the mop docs for generic-function-methods are unusually configured. my html-scraping script failed on it and several others. 17:01:31 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-37-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:02:15 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:02:23 err, sorry for the false bug report. Turns out my test.gif was actually a BMP. 17:02:43 boo 17:02:47 blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:05 what error did it give? 17:03:37 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 17:04:59 a SIGNATURE-MISMATCH, which should probably have told me something :-) 17:05:12 *lichtblau* doesn't think twice before dismissing annoying sldb buffers 17:05:29 wow, i even exported and documented it 17:08:03 lichtblau: any reason I can't use do-all-symbols instead of using list-all-packages and do-symbols? 17:09:10 does cltl-2 say anything about alists or does it simply tell you to fuck off and use properties 17:09:21 ? 17:09:46 I can't find any functions to help me with alists in clhs :/ 17:09:51 It provides functions for both 17:09:58 ah! 17:10:46 yvdriess: assoc, rassoc, and acons are three that spring to mind 17:10:48 (cdr (assoc ... 17:11:11 oh right CL has assoc 17:11:21 I was aproposing with alist etc :/ 17:11:23 clhs assoc 17:11:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_assocc.htm 17:11:59 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:12:35 lichtblau: still around? After finding the symbols bound to functions, how do I get the value they're bound to so I can check if they're a generic function (using the typep you mentioned above)? 17:12:53 jfincher: You can use swank::classify-symbol 17:13:17 tcr: I'm just doing a one-off stats gather here, and I'm not really a common lisp programmer 17:13:24 so I doubt I have the swank package at all 17:13:25 jfincher: fdefinition is one way 17:13:55 jfincher: You do have it if you use Slime. 17:13:58 Xach: I don't want to redefine anything 17:14:19 jfincher: you probably want to read the docs when you're given pointers, though. 17:14:20 tcr: I don't have Slime. I'm not a lisp programmer. This is probably the only Lisp I've written in the past four years and it'll probably be another four years before I write any more :) 17:14:32 pkhuong: I did, which is why I said, "I don't want to redefine anything" 17:14:41 jfincher: Your loss. 17:15:43 perhaps, but the debate over what programming language I should use is almost certainly uninteresting 17:16:03 jfincher: I don't see the connection between what I said and what you said, sorry. 17:16:26 Xach: http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_fdefin.htm indicates that fdefinition is used to rebind or redefine globally bound functions 17:16:27 jfincher: While fdefinition is an accessor, you need not use it to redefine anything. 17:16:46 jfincher: That's one use. Another use is to get the function definition for a function name. 17:17:04 Xach: I don't see where I can specify the package the name is looked up in, though 17:17:19 jfincher: symbols know their packages. 17:17:27 Xach: oh, didn't know that. 17:18:18 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 17:18:25 jfincher: you need a package to map strings (names) to symbols. After that, symbols are directly used as identifiers. 17:18:25 how do you deal with frustration when coding? 17:18:59 depends on the nature of the frustration. 17:19:02 Pala-Wan: cursing, pulling shirt over head. 17:19:13 haha 17:19:33 this is oh so damn frustrating 17:19:41 I'm starting to hate this serial dev 17:19:47 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483E155.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:00 xinitrc_ [n=martin@p4FCCC934.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:20:12 trying to get the complete output of a command leads to an infinite loop of printing empty lines 17:20:21 -!- yvdriess [n=yvdriess@progmc60.vub.ac.be] has quit [] 17:20:33 -!- kreuter [i=3f6b5b63@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bd76719b385703d1] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 17:20:41 maybe I should grab some C code from minicom and load it with cffi 17:20:46 lichtblau: ok, the last key to this puzzle is mop:generic-function-methods 17:20:50 at least minicom handles it ok 17:21:17 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:21:48 jfincher: http://www.lisp.org/mop/dictionary.html#gf-mo-readers has documentation for that. 17:21:58 Xach: thanks 17:22:06 jfincher: the name of the mop package will differ from implementation to implementation. the closer-mop utility library normalizes things. 17:22:29 vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:22:38 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:23:36 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:23:45 Dodek [i=dodek@87-205-244-205.adsl.inetia.pl] has joined #lisp 17:24:17 Xach: what's the name of the mop package in sbcl? 17:24:29 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:24:38 jfincher: sb-mop I think. 17:25:10 -!- xinitrc [n=martin@theorie-dyn-29-166.Informatik.Uni-Oldenburg.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:25:27 beach: indeed, thanks 17:25:30 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 17:25:32 I should've looked in list-all-packages first. 17:25:48 (apropos "generic-function-methods") is another way to find it 17:26:07 billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:28 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [No route to host] 17:29:22 hideously dumb question: how do I print a newline? 17:29:25 4% :( 17:29:36 jfincher: terpri 17:29:37 sorry, wrong # 17:29:43 clhs terpri 17:29:43 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_terpri.htm 17:30:01 <``Erik> or in a format, ~% 17:31:50 how do I see a list of the specializers on a method? 17:32:18 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-72-232.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Operation timed out] 17:32:25 jfincher: MOP might have a way to do that 17:32:36 jfincher: check that mop doc i linked a moment ago. 17:32:45 vixey: I saw method-qualifiers in my copy of ANSI CL, but not method-specializers or anything similar 17:32:50 search in the page for "specalizer" 17:32:50 (apropos "specializer" nil t) 17:32:53 jfincher: _MOP_ 17:32:56 jfincher: not ANSI CL 17:33:23 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 17:33:31 jfincher: you can print a newline like this: (terpri) or (format "yourstuff here ~%") 17:33:39 jfincher: are you really interested in information about a single method? 17:33:41 Pala-Wan: thanks, I used terpri 17:33:50 rpg|away: no, I'm gathering a bit of stats about all defined methods 17:34:22 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 17:35:03 -!- lispm_ [n=joswig@g224121032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:35:09 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:35:39 -!- and7229 [n=Miranda@studbud.com.ua] has quit ["Miranda IM! Smaller, Faster, Easier. http://miranda-im.org"] 17:36:15 avida [n=amani@c-71-198-246-95.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:39:08 LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has joined #lisp 17:41:03 voice14 [n=voice14@94.178.115.19] has joined #lisp 17:42:17 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 17:43:50 huyslogic [n=Huy@192.206.112.168] has joined #lisp 17:45:02 nostoi [n=nostoi@121.Red-83-35-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:07 bashyal [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has joined #lisp 17:45:52 -!- Dodek [i=dodek@87-205-244-205.adsl.inetia.pl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:45:53 rey_ [i=pdewacht@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has joined #lisp 17:45:55 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:47:06 froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 17:51:21 schasi [n=schasi@p54A26B1A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:52:56 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-244-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:56:27 zzk [n=zzk@foton-gw.xdsl.easynet.be] has joined #lisp 17:57:42 binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.210.206] has joined #lisp 18:00:16 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:01:06 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@homeuser198-8.ccl.perm.ru] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:01:23 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 18:03:37 TDT [n=TDT@dhcp80ff86ef.dynamic.uiowa.edu] has joined #lisp 18:05:51 TDT pasted "PCL - Chapter 8 question" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68948 18:06:34 Hey all, with the link above, I typed it from the PCL book, but I'm gettng an error sayingunreachable code, along with some other stuff, I'll paste the error I'm getting in SBCL 18:07:29 TDT annotated #68948 with "Error Output" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68948#1 18:08:19 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:08:25 well, nm, I guess it executes, but that warning/error, what does that mean? 18:08:40 it's note not error 18:09:12 TDT: I think it's a glitch in SBCL's heuristics for propagating deleting-unreachable-code messages up to original user code. 18:09:27 TDT: i don't get it if i use something other than "number" for the variable name. 18:09:43 Ah, ok. 18:09:59 ok, so the lists returned from method-specializers have classes/types in them, very frequently # -- if I want to filter out the objects whose representation is #, how would I do that? 18:10:01 TDT: normally SBCL hides unreachable code notes that come from macroexpansions, since macros might expand into all kinds of things. 18:10:10 that is, what predicate would I use (not "how can I use filter") 18:10:23 Is there a good reference available - for a few months now I haven't really found a good one, to look up CL-basic operations (e.g. never and zerop -- I don't understand what those are) 18:10:40 TDT: there is an authoritative reference at http://l1sp.org/cl 18:10:41 Xach: Ah, I see..I'll try changing the variable and see what it says. 18:10:59 TDT: it has the definition of every standard function, macro, variable, special operator, etc. 18:11:15 TDT: there's a shorter reference at http://clqr.berlios.de/ 18:11:35 TDT: and practical common lisp is a nice book...some more books are linked from http://l1sp.org/lisp/books 18:12:01 Xach: Thanks for hte help, the lispworks site looks like it'll be exactly what I need...and, I have PCL, that's where the code came from that drew me into here hehe. Awesome awesome book, I gotta admit 18:12:30 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-f61f843cfc2440a7] has joined #lisp 18:12:36 Yep, you're right..number, the variable is definitely the issue 18:12:42 Renamed it to "n" and it worked 18:12:51 (without notes anyways) 18:12:55 it worked before, just gave a spurious note. right. 18:13:07 -!- huyslogic [n=Huy@192.206.112.168] has left #lisp 18:13:12 -!- LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:13:45 Another mcclim question I've been wondering about: I'm using sbcl on a 1.6Ghz Intel Celeron with 2GB ram. Is it normal for mcclim to take 28 seconds to load? 18:14:30 it sounds normal for sbcl 18:15:16 sad to say 18:15:20 So for deployment, I guess the best think to do is use save-lisp-and-die to generate an executable? 18:15:23 josemanuel [n=josemanu@230.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 18:15:29 soverton: yes 18:16:22 stassats: That's fine, I just like to make sure I'm not doing something wrong. Thanks. 18:16:54 I wish I understood macros better, even with PCL's explanations from chapter 7-10, the whole idea of macros is incredibly fuzzy yet. 18:17:11 disumu [n=disumu@p57A272D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:17:53 TDT: there's not a lot to it once it clicks. in my experience, it's not something you have to constantly fight with and refresh on. 18:19:11 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.250.193] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:19:51 TDT: the main thing to realize is that the lisp languages aren't composed of characters and tokens, but of actual data structures 18:20:40 Yeah, trying to not think of it as I think of other languages such as Python, is tough 18:21:22 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E43F7B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:21:43 Xach: looking at the macroexpansion of primemp, I can't figure out the unreachable code note either 18:21:53 TDT this is alwyas a problem learning new languages, not projecting some other language ontoit 18:22:05 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.80.152.124] has left #lisp 18:22:35 -!- seelenquell__ is now known as seelenquell 18:22:38 I am just hacking on run-program: given a pid and 2 file descriptors, is there a way to wait simultaneously on activity on all three of them without using signals? 18:22:41 Yeah, I look forward to when this just 'clicks', I have a feeling it'll be a bit yet. I think I just need to find a good application of it, or find myself writing stuff in it. 18:23:57 dlowe annotated #68948 with "Complete macroexpansion of primemp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68948#2 18:24:06 well the other thing is, don't force it. A lot of newbies overuse macros and use them where a funciton is more appropriate .... 18:24:30 -!- H4ns2 is now known as H4ns1 18:24:47 salex: Yeah, just finding out where a macro is helpful over a function is tough. 18:25:09 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB97D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 18:25:20 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 18:25:35 TDT not really, they have fundamentally different roles 18:25:40 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB97D6.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 18:25:57 but it's a bit confusing at first, for most. 18:26:38 Yeah, going to give it time for it to click..right now I haven't used macros in anything small I wrote, just haven't seen a need yet, but I'm sure I will later. 18:26:54 TDT: Imagine if you were using a language that doesn't have $yourfavoritelanguageconstruct, so for loops or pattern matching or anything like that - this is the sort of tthing you might use a macro to add to the language 18:30:05 sellout [n=greg@da001d0478.smr-ga.osd.concentric.net] has joined #lisp 18:30:39 milanj [n=milan@77.46.169.122] has joined #lisp 18:31:14 Yeah, how does this differ from just a recusive function..say if we were creating a loop construct 18:31:18 TDT: developing intuition about when to use a tool you've never used before can take some time. 18:31:23 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:31:24 TDT: I use macros often when I have several similar functions to define, I just put the unique parts in a list and write a macro that loops through the list, defining each function. It saves a lot of repetitive typing and errors. 18:31:31 TDT: let me show you one of my favorite macro stories... 18:32:01 *adeht* suspects a Will Hartung one 18:32:09 hah. http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/86cf454beb8a42f9 18:32:45 TDT: It's not obvious? You're typing (for ...) instead of writing out a recursive function 18:32:55 TDT, I have a practical example of using macros that I think is quite readable. http://mikael.jansson.be/journal/2008/09/i-like-macros 18:33:36 TDT: one way to appreciate macros in Lisp is to try and write Lisp without using them 18:34:10 TDT: there are a lot of situations where macros could be replaced with higher-order functions. sometimes macros have a big enough advantage in convenience and brevity and directness that they make life a lot easier. 18:34:25 adeht, really? I don't stop to think if an operator is implemented as a macro or not. maybe you meant "without writing them"? 18:34:40 tic: no, I meant without using them. 18:35:08 i think it's hard to miss something you didn't have before. 18:35:12 tic: i.e. just using the special operators + standard functions.. then you realize that in other languages you do just that, but that they have more special operators. 18:35:15 weitz's http://www.weitz.de/macros.lisp help me to figure out macros 18:35:36 adeht, OK, true. 18:37:05 -!- billc [n=user@S0106001b63f442be.vn.shawcable.net] has left #lisp 18:37:08 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4594B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:37:47 <``Erik> huh, tic's journal entry is almost exactly the pattern I was trying to implement last night O.o 18:37:48 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:38:08 -!- sellout [n=greg@da001d0478.smr-ga.osd.concentric.net] has quit [] 18:38:50 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 18:39:28 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@121.Red-83-35-215.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 18:40:29 hmm...interesting story, sounds like the story "a story of mac" from PLC, heh 18:40:33 err PCL 18:42:08 -!- mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:43:24 neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has joined #lisp 18:44:08 -!- xinitrc_ [n=martin@p4FCCC934.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [] 18:44:23 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:44:30 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.94.98] has joined #lisp 18:45:34 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-244-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:46:37 -!- voice14 [n=voice14@94.178.115.19] has left #lisp 18:47:19 http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/2ff89986ee77f639 is another macro example i like 18:48:18 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 18:50:54 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.5] has joined #lisp 18:51:13 awesome, thanks...can't read all of these now, but saved them to my ebook reader - that's my ride home read 18:54:16 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:54:58 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-219-188-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 18:56:25 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 18:58:22 -!- avida [n=amani@beigetower/jaene] has quit [] 18:59:08 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:59:21 -!- NormalJarv is now known as Jarvellis 18:59:49 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:02:23 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:06:06 I keep seeing this idiom in some source code... defining class slots with names beginning with a percent sign. This is just to help differentiate the symbol from an accessor function? 19:07:13 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 19:08:00 soverton: it's a custom that means something like "this is meant for internal consumption" 19:08:14 it's not part of the next-layer-higher user interface 19:08:22 but might be used to implement that interface 19:08:23 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:09:05 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@92.112.94.98] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:50 Xach: like marking the slot "private"? 19:11:01 soverton: sort of. 19:11:40 Is that just for slots, or would it be for functions, classes, etc. too? 19:12:08 anything with a name, really, though i've mostly seen it for functions. 19:12:29 mathrick [n=mathrick@users177.kollegienet.dk] has joined #lisp 19:12:35 http://www.cliki.net/Naming%20conventions has some more info 19:12:40 lichtblau, Xach, et alii: thanks for the help, I got the code I needed written 19:13:21 what, no pretty pictures with results? 19:13:50 the excel spreadsheet is in the mail 19:14:23 http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/784yd/why_ruby_is_not_my_favorite_language/c05yma8 <-- that's the code 19:14:28 it sucks, stylistically 19:14:48 but wasn't in the mood to make it stylistically nice for a one-off like this 19:14:53 Xach: perfect! Thanks :) 19:15:02 nor did I want to switch gears in my brain and then have trouble when I switched back to my work language :) 19:15:11 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:16:01 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:16:32 awesome, glad I could help you shit on clos. 19:16:38 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 19:16:48 hehe 19:17:11 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.249.21] has quit ["leaving"] 19:17:15 in summary, < 10% of the methods defined in my default sbcl load-out specialize on more than one argument 19:17:36 so that's a reason for multiple dispatch being pointless? 19:17:39 yes, but do they all specialize on the *same* argument? 19:17:55 jfincher: I'm not sure I understood your stats 19:18:04 chandler: true, that's potentially an issue 19:18:07 also, looking at the set of methods in a vanilla SBCL is wildly misleading 19:18:07 this was just a one-off 19:18:14 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44978.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:16 -!- binarycodes [n=Arch@59.93.210.206] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:18:19 feel free to provide something more useful 19:18:21 I'm missing context, but... surely a single one proves that multiple dispatch is necessary 19:18:26 I reached about the extent of my patience with CL :) 19:18:31 since most of what's there is either PCL internals or left open for the user 19:18:39 Krystof: specializing on only one argument is equivalent to single dispatch 19:19:26 yes, and the fact that there are more than zero arguments with multiple specializers proves that multiple dispatch is useful 19:19:29 QED 19:19:49 Krystof: no, not really 19:20:29 Krystof: if a generic function takes 3 arguments, and all methods specialized on that function specialize on the same, single argument, it's equivalent to a message send to the argument that's specialized 19:20:59 you're not at all arguing against the point I made 19:21:07 you might be arguing against a point you might wish I had made 19:21:41 that's because your point is worthless 19:21:53 excellent, then you've won the argument and you can shut up now! 19:22:03 it's tautological. 19:22:09 "Multiple dispatch exists, so multiple dispatch is useful." 19:22:15 gz_ [n=gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:22:23 that's also not what he said 19:22:26 jfincher, what do you propose instead? 19:22:30 every language that doesn't do multiple dispatch ends up doing it anyways, via some hack or other 19:22:30 multiple dispatch is used, therefore multiple dispatch is useful 19:22:32 would you like to try restating his point accurately, or not? 19:22:34 jfincher, single dispatch w/ the visitor design pattern? 19:22:42 Krystof: I'm not arguing that multiple dispatch isn't useful. 19:22:49 I'm just saying that it's not *often* useful. 19:22:54 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 19:22:54 the cases where it's useful are pretty darn rare 19:23:02 anyway, I'm not here to argue 19:23:11 jfincher: then don't 19:23:15 -!- jfincher [n=jfincher@cpe-72-135-16-126.kc.res.rr.com] has left #lisp 19:23:26 and now he's not here at all! 19:24:10 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.249.21] has joined #lisp 19:25:09 sweat dreams 19:27:19 The moth's s here! looking at ways to inprove polymorphism, by tequniques learned by cl-ppcre. closures galore. 19:27:56 oh wait... I'm the... Let's forget it 19:28:39 younder: Make sense, please. 19:29:35 ok you can use closures to at runtime do type disperence 19:29:49 as an alternative to methods 19:30:40 Guess I'll shut up. See you in another 3 years 19:33:47 anyone here have experience with abcl and touching lots of Java code that they'd like to share? Specifically, how do you deal iwth APIs that require you to do foo.factory().getManager().getFactoryManager().killMePlease("something") 19:34:09 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 19:34:14 -!- sebaseba [n=carnieri@201.86.7.227.adsl.gvt.net.br] has left #lisp 19:34:27 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E43F7B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:34:40 This is purely a subjective question I suppose, but kinda curious - what other language does everyone like in general, besides lisp. e.g. Are many into Python, Ruby, Java, etc, etc. 19:35:06 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:35:28 sohail, you mean lisp code that does alots of jcall? 19:35:36 not python ruby or java 19:35:41 dmiles_afk, yeah 19:35:47 TDT: I suspect the answers are a bit more esoteric than that. 19:35:58 TDT: I like python fairly well for small things, but I'm married to common lisp for now. 19:36:11 *tic* uses bash, python, c, c++ and pike at work. 19:36:13 TDT ruby for anything common-lisp doesn't do well. 19:36:18 I like Python and C++ 19:37:05 I like and use Common Lisp and Scheme. I like, but don't use frequently, Smalltalk, Factor, and Forth. 19:37:13 pkhuong_ [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:37:14 chandler: You're absolutely right, the answers are kinda going to gravitate toward lisp since that's where we are at. I just know a number of languages, and there's more than one favorite for me, but yeah, hehe. 19:37:19 dmiles_afk, I suppose I could just write a defun that wraps it but it is getting really annoying 19:37:26 Oh, and I forgot Dylan. 19:37:53 visual basic 19:37:55 jk 19:38:03 sohail, i understand... it is painfull ;P but at least its still protable between lisps and stuff 19:38:04 *TDT* feels very similar to tic and sohail in what they are mentioning in liking Python/C++ 19:38:42 sohail, did you see http://openbotlist.googlecode.com/svn/trunk/botclient/botnetclient/lisp/ui/swing/swing_example_lisp.html ? 19:38:43 Ruby is something I'm still working with...I do a full time job in PHP/Ruby, and in off hours Python mostly (for work), so yeah.. 19:38:45 TDT, I don't -like- C++. I absolutely hate it. But I /use/ it. 19:38:52 dmiles_afk, no I didn't 19:38:56 yeah I'm with tic actually 19:39:01 heh 19:39:04 C and JavaScript (to some degree) is nice 19:39:05 I like C++ if I /have/ to use it... but otherwise I'd prefer something else 19:39:18 i wonder if i'm the only lisper who liked visual basic. 19:39:25 lemonodor: you're not! 19:39:27 Scheme, C, Ruby, Javascript, Python 19:40:05 Now for the other question...how many of you get to do a full time job in something that you love to code in ;)? heh 19:40:19 lemonodor: I can't judge VB, really. I just had to hack together something for an Excel spreadsheet at work and didn't like it. 19:40:29 sohail, also more examples: http://code.google.com/p/jvmnotebook/source/browse/trunk/abcl/swing/misc/java_example_helpers.lisp?r=59 19:40:34 dmiles_afk, it seems to me that one should be able to atleast wrap classes using reflection 19:40:36 am I wrong? 19:41:27 dmiles_afk, thanks a lot for the links 19:41:30 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:41:36 and this link http://code.google.com/p/jvmnotebook/source/browse/trunk/abcl/?r=59 19:41:48 sohail, yeah you could make an auto defstruct 19:42:05 do you know how much work that would be? :-) 19:42:12 sohail, arround third party java classes 19:42:18 I don't know anything about java reflection 19:42:27 sohail, well i did that in java to make new types of lisp structs 19:42:33 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 19:42:38 dmiles_afk, link/example? 19:43:08 well its for the closed source java lisp i work on ;( 19:43:28 -!- locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-7dd5935786cbb41d] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:43:38 but i am merging it with ABCL src, so pretty soon there will be public consuambles i hope 19:44:07 you work on a closed source java lisp? 19:44:15 that's interesting... 19:44:27 yeah http://www.cyc.com/cycdoc/ref/subl-reference.html 19:44:50 its for a large scale application CYC.. we arnt fully CL yet 19:45:04 lemonodor: I enjoyed the vb4 work i did, but have been forever scarred from doing work on other peoples access9x VBA code 19:45:17 dmiles_afk, pretty cool! 19:45:27 sohail, the bootstapping cyc in java lisp is lesw then 30 seconds.. the C version is 30 minutes 19:45:42 drewc: those don't even sound like the "let me tell you how i got this one" kind of fun scarring either. 19:45:51 drewc: i just know that in the late 90s/early 00's, i wouldn't have wanted to write a windows app in any other way 19:45:53 erll soory maybe not 30 minutes but at least 10 minutes 19:46:17 dmiles_afk, nice :-) 19:46:23 "Unlike Common Lisp, SubL is not a purely functional language." ???? 19:46:29 sohail, but i am not sure on basic benchmarks if it'd still be much faster than the C 19:47:02 neun [n=chatzill@dslb-084-057-171-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 19:47:17 Xach: those memories bring on PTS syndrome. *shudder* 19:47:17 fe[nl]ix, McCarthy desinged that lisp specific for the product.. that documntation.. i dunnoo ;P 19:48:19 fe[nl]ix, the main differnce is that no functions have a implied return .. it has to be thrown 19:48:34 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 19:48:48 lemoine1 [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:48:51 fe[nl]ix, well its not really a throw.. but a #'RET 19:48:56 lemonodor: in 1994-7, i did a lot of VB, and it really was the only way to do it. 19:49:18 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:49:36 SubL was designed to be translated out of lisp to a C, Pascal or something 19:50:15 -!- pkhuong [n=pkhuong@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:50:19 ECL isn't good enough? 19:50:35 SubL shares alot with EcoLisp 19:50:42 *sohail* is looking at embedding ECL in a project 19:51:32 well SubL is implmented to be highly multithreaded and large platforms 19:51:39 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4747A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:51:45 like all that stuff that clojure advertises 19:51:49 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-502b8168081f584a] has joined #lisp 19:52:11 clojure has really nice integration with the JVM 19:52:49 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:52:50 the java lisp i work on is afraid to be too much close with the JVM since there are RTL arround many non JVM languages 19:53:07 dmiles_afk: what does that mean? 19:53:13 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 19:53:30 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:53:32 do most people tend to put mixins before or after the concrete/direct parent class in the class precedence list? 19:53:35 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host53.190-227-47.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:53:38 but the jfield,jmethod,jcall etc, are all just fine since that what lisp programmers have to expect for interaction with JVM 19:53:40 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-28.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 19:53:57 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 19:54:07 Xach, no special abilities implied due to the fact its JVM based 19:54:13 Xach, has to work like the C version 19:54:54 dmiles_afk: What's "RTL" in that context? 19:54:57 oh but the MT.. large Scale etc? mainly that so far it does really good running on 6gb ram with 64 thread 19:55:21 Xach, well there are Java RTLs, AllegroLisp RTLs, Java RTLs 19:55:23 oops 19:55:40 dmiles_afk: What does RTL stand for? 19:55:55 alllegro-store 19:55:56 Xach, well there are Java RTLs, AllegroLisp RTLs, C RTLs - Run Time Library 19:56:13 dmiles_afk: ah, ok. 19:56:30 since you ask so nicely, 4 times fater than the Java equivalent 19:57:09 s/fater/faster 19:57:12 so the JVM created lots of cool opertunites, sometimes it seems like one could take better advantage of, clojure tries to leverage as much JVM as possible 19:57:33 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 19:57:49 dmiles_afk: it reminds me a little of the early linux embrace of 386-only. 19:57:54 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2C448.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:58:09 younder, allegro-store much faster than like JESS or JENA? 19:58:25 yes 19:58:27 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.155.52] has quit ["Induhvidual Quote: “Oh, that will be a cake in the woods.”"] 19:58:54 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:59:36 Look a dynamic object system is better at handeling dynamic objects 19:59:47 -!- lemoine1 is now known as lemoinem 20:00:33 younder, how is allegro-cache implemented? initially in lisp then compiled? 20:00:57 Java has a looser object syetem that makes objects out of everything also things that aren't bojects. But that totally defeats real time object creation with the sematic web 20:01:34 younder, i agree, the JVM really really needs tagged types 20:01:55 rico [i=5a22d2fc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-323bd64653b6f782] has joined #lisp 20:02:03 hi all 20:02:16 dmiles_afk: find out for yourself. the website is online. tak a test drive. 20:02:33 what is the equivalent of "break" instruction in lisp ? 20:02:35 younder, every time i start.. i end up letting my thingy expire ;( 20:02:37 (to break a dolist) 20:03:00 dolist establishes a block named nil 20:03:11 you can return from blocks named nil with the "return" operator 20:03:25 -!- mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-089-023.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 20:03:33 it also has a tagbody, so you can do exciting variations of control flow too. 20:03:39 younder, oh well i wasnt disputing allegro-cache, indeed i'd love to use it, and can in our Allegro-RTL 20:04:01 right 20:04:13 younder, but then is it portable to the java RTL ? :( 20:04:22 *xjrn* hears jvm tagged types, stirs, and rolls back over to sleep another 6 months 20:04:43 Then you know it out performs the current java system 20:04:47 dmiles_afk, Most languages for the JVM suck. Take out the huge API, and you have crap. clojure seems to be attempting to make that statement false (though I'm still not sure how you'd use it for large projects) 20:05:02 yes, it runs as a servlet 20:05:53 Krystof: thx =) by chance, have you a good documentation of common lisp ? 20:05:59 sohail: I don't think any one language can make that statement false ;) 20:06:04 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44978.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:06:08 younder, if both ends (allegro-cache and the Java Lisp) have to know the exact same KB, i gues it comes down to what the cache is going t be used for exacly 20:06:12 minion: tell rico about hyperspec 20:06:12 rico: direct your attention towards hyperspec: The Common Lisp HyperSpec can be found at http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/ - or go to the contents at http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Front/Contents.htm 20:06:15 rico: no, but the entire standard is online 20:06:57 I think I'll shut up now! 20:07:27 minion: tell rico about clqr 20:07:27 rico: look at clqr: The Common Lisp Quick Reference is as free booklet with short descriptions of the symbols defined in the ANSI standard: http://clqr.berlios.de/ 20:07:54 adeht, why do you think so? 20:08:02 sohail, nod (i agree) 20:09:20 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:09:55 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 20:11:52 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 20:12:41 sohail: you wrote "Most languages for the JVM suck". yes, one language can "make" that statement false, given that exactly half of the languages suck, which is excessively optimistic ;) 20:13:05 basically nobody has designed a better language than java 20:14:15 oh I see. I should have said all languages suck :-) 20:14:18 lispm [n=joswig@e177125214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:14:45 thx a lot chandler, i've taken a look to the clqr , but i can't find how to break a "dolist" loop :( 20:14:59 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A26B1A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 20:15:40 vixey, ABCL is fine except the integration with Java code is very raw 20:15:49 atleast from my few days of using it 20:15:50 rico: what are you trying to do in your loop? If you're doing anything but iterating through the list, it's probably the wrong tool 20:16:34 rico: well, an authoritative reference like the HyperSpec has the information, but not laid out in an accessible fashion 20:16:48 (accessible for those new to the language, that is) 20:17:34 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.243.178] has joined #lisp 20:17:44 rico: Krystof's method should work fine. Did it give you trouble? 20:20:04 -!- ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:20:48 ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:15 -!- gz_ [n=gz@c-66-31-201-117.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:23:37 Xach: i've a function with two imbricated dolist, and i would like to break in the second dolist to go in the next loop of the first dolist :' 20:23:55 bashyal_ [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has joined #lisp 20:23:56 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 20:24:13 hugo_ [n=hugo@89-180-242-47.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 20:25:06 heh. I did not know the word "imbricated" until now. I'm guessing that came out of a dictionary :-) 20:25:13 -!- hugo__ [n=hugo@89.181.118.155] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:25:26 rico: in the body of the second dolist, simply (return) 20:26:12 booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:00 silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-113-033.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:28:04 Sorry promo for the millitary 20:28:08 -!- sely [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:29:24 younder: you appear to be talking to people who aren't here 20:29:52 bashyal__ [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has joined #lisp 20:29:54 Not any more, Good night 20:30:07 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6e1e7ac3293daead] has joined #lisp 20:30:35 (dmiles-afk) 20:32:21 dmiles pasted "jimport-class " at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68955 20:32:55 that was for sohail 20:33:09 thanks younder 20:33:12 chandler: indeed, it works, thx 20:33:14 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-231.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 20:33:32 rico: don't thank me! it was Krystof's suggestion 20:34:03 I am glad to have chandler as my high priest 20:34:09 smite the infidel, chandler 20:34:15 sohail: you're using abcl? 20:35:46 i sorta decided to use ABCL since things like (register-exception... ) and stuff is pretty hard.. and ABCL does common lisp very well 20:36:24 dmiles_afk: isn't it great? :-) 20:37:37 yeah ;) .. i just really wish LispObject was an interface 20:38:02 ehu, using is too strong.. more like investigating how to avoid Java 20:39:05 while still retaining portability of Java? 20:39:33 it always baffles me why people don't just program in java 20:39:42 it's not exactly hard.. 20:40:02 -!- |jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:40:39 ehu, more like portability of JVM 20:40:40 it hurts real bad 20:41:27 vixey, yes it's funny 20:42:16 dmiles_afk, I was expecting code but that's pretty cool 20:42:20 :-) 20:42:24 To break the monotony: 20:43:00 it always baffles me why people claim to care about portability of Java for things people actually use it for 20:43:09 (web server programs) 20:43:42 (and (fbound b) (not (nad (macro-funtion b) (special operator b)) is a symbolb for a function 20:43:45 sohail: well its an example. how it walks the java refelct API and it can defines things.. i still gotta get that working in ABCL though 20:44:09 -!- soverton [n=user@75.145.221.229] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 20:44:31 ussefull in finding all the functionsin a package 20:44:35 younder: When will you make good on your threats to leave? 20:44:40 vixey: java doesn't give you an evaluator/compiler for free while the program is running. 20:44:54 oka 20:45:00 now! 20:45:03 ehu: fsvo "Java" :-) I have seen hacks... 20:45:03 -!- younder [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 20:45:19 ehu: it sure does give you that! 20:45:26 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:46:04 Even back when I last actually wrote java code (1.1-ish) that was perfectly doable. :) 20:46:09 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:46:10 foom, I'm not using it for a web server 20:46:39 sohail: really! what else is it useful for? :/ 20:47:32 You can write a desktop application that doesn't look or act like a native application on any windowing system! 20:48:03 chandler: hey now, you can write native-*looking* apps for OSX. 20:48:09 younder [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 20:48:13 O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-35.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 20:48:32 just so long as you don't let the user interact with it 20:48:47 or i can use a commercial lisp that looks and act like windows 3.1 20:48:48 a small price to pay. 20:49:24 -!- bashyal_ [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:50:01 GUI modes are there only to disqualify perfectly good software and replace it by masquerades. 20:50:50 pjb, and the other way round to 20:50:52 Yeah I don't really know why anyone would want to use CLIM, either. :) 20:53:01 foom: seems to me like there's a lot of reasons to want to use CLIM. It has some features I keep seeing people gush about. :) 20:53:55 but that's my lame, barely-informed defense of (Mc)CLIM 20:54:05 what is the difference between #'(lambda()...) and (lambda()...) 20:54:13 devinus [n=devin@65.90.212.30] has joined #lisp 20:54:13 timor: they're the same 20:54:18 timor: you typed two extra characters for one 20:54:25 timor: the latter is a macro that expands to the former 20:54:46 bashyal [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has joined #lisp 20:55:09 jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:18 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 20:55:26 is one considered better style? 20:55:48 so its just a matter of style, to emphasize that its a function? 20:55:51 I've been told (lambda () ..) is the preferred style. 20:56:14 but *I* still generally write it #'(lambda ..) 20:56:34 i do too, out of habit, because the book i learned lisp with did it 20:56:38 are there any elephant users in #lisp? just curious about how popular it is 20:56:44 timor: LAMBDA already emphasizes it 20:56:48 gonzojive: i am about to :) 20:56:52 there is actually an implementatino of elephant? 20:56:55 stassats: thats what i thought, too 20:56:57 vixey: what? 20:57:15 vixey: oh, I don't think you're referring to the same thing 20:57:15 minion: tell vixey about elephant 20:57:15 vixey: please see elephant: Elephant is a LLGPLed portable object database based on Sleepycat (Berkeley DB) or relational databases. http://www.cliki.net/elephant 20:57:18 oh.. 20:57:23 gonzojive: elephant was quite highly recommended to me, and I'm working with someone who's actually using it in his code. 20:57:23 that sounds pretty boring 20:57:28 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 20:57:44 timor: and you can't use #'(lambda ..) in a place of a function name 20:57:56 the examples of elephant looked dead sexy simple to me 20:58:03 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.243.178] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:58:16 stassats: can you give an example? 20:58:24 ((lambda (x) x) 2) 20:58:31 vixey: did you mean mccarthy's elephant? http://www-formal.stanford.edu/jmc/elephant/elephant.html 20:58:31 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 20:58:43 that's what I thought you were talking about 20:58:52 -!- rico [i=5a22d2fc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-323bd64653b6f782] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 20:58:54 sykopomp: yeah I recommend it, too. But watch out for BDB pitfalls 20:59:30 gonzojive: oh, you were talking about elephant the language >_> 21:00:07 stassats: why is that valid code? while the first thing inside the parentheses must be a function name, why does (lambda()...) return a function name? 21:00:37 timor: because standard specifies that this is a valid code 21:00:47 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 21:01:04 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0E702.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:30 clhs 3.1.2.1.2.4 21:01:30 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/03_ababd.htm 21:01:40 ahh thanks, gonna read 21:02:11 Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.243.178] has joined #lisp 21:02:21 foom, putting a desktop UI on a Java server app (that has a proprietary communications layer) 21:03:30 stassats: interesting, i thought these kind of constructs were scheme territory 21:04:10 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:04:10 timor: lambda is the only such construct 21:04:29 davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:47 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:05:06 funny exception 21:05:36 i think that's for the compatibility with some ancient lisp 21:05:40 sykopomp: no, i meant the persistent store :) 21:06:05 oh okay :P 21:06:22 gonzojive: I ended up opting for bknr's datastore, since my database should always fit in RAM 21:06:25 timor: you will rarely see it in a real code 21:06:42 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:08:36 has anyone ever used SKILL before? they actually c'-ified the reader so it accepts func(arg1 arg2)-style calls, which makes (defun func(arg)) throw an error, because the missing whitespace after 'func' 21:10:48 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:04 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Client Quit] 21:16:35 elurin [n=user@85.99.132.20] has joined #lisp 21:16:50 rico [i=5a22d2fc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0d3d088ede4c826a] has joined #lisp 21:17:11 timor: notice that an important point is that when you _evaluate_ #'(lambda ...) and (lambda ...) you get the same result, but when you don't, they're not the same thing at all. #'(lambda ...) is a list of two elements,the first being the symbol FUNCTION and the other the list (lambda ...). 21:17:33 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0D5B7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:17:52 -!- bashyal__ [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:18:26 pjb: yeah. its just a reader macro for (function ...), right? 21:18:37 Yes. 21:20:53 -!- brickhazel__ [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:22:36 -!- silenius [n=jl@dslb-088-073-113-033.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:22:56 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:23:17 -!- mimies is now known as spiderbyte 21:23:38 -!- pkhuong_ is now known as pkhuong 21:24:46 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:25:48 -!- spiderbyte is now known as away-mode 21:26:54 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 21:27:02 -!- away-mode is now known as break-mode 21:27:36 i've a function with a variable defined with the let operator, how can i change its value ? 21:27:45 setf 21:27:46 -!- jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 21:28:05 -!- break-mode is now known as spiderbyte 21:29:01 -!- rlpowell [n=rlpowell@chain.digitalkingdom.org] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:33:58 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 21:33:59 -!- bashyal [n=bashyal@v-209-98-139-195.mn.visi.com] has quit [] 21:35:16 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:36:43 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 21:38:22 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 21:39:19 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:39:32 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:41:00 -!- rico [i=5a22d2fc@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-0d3d088ede4c826a] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:44:25 -!- antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has quit ["+++ killed by SIGSEGV +++"] 21:45:53 jeremiah [n=jeremiah@31.Red-213-98-123.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:40 -!- ice_man` [n=user@CPE000d6074b550-CM001a66704e52.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:49:22 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177125214.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving..."] 21:50:12 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:51:02 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:53:16 -!- robot_jesus [n=csanders@hoovers-241.hoovers.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:55:50 bart192 [n=none@p54ABD0F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:57:22 -!- kleppari_ [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:57:45 -!- bart192 [n=none@p54ABD0F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:00:33 -!- devinus [n=devin@65.90.212.30] has quit [] 22:03:43 larrytheliquid [n=larrythe@169.157.33.65.cfl.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:04:27 Jasko2 [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:04:40 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:05:01 brat239 [n=none@p54ABD0F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:05:42 -!- brat239 [n=none@p54ABD0F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:05:45 brat239 [n=none@p54ABD0F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:06:07 -!- brat239 [n=none@p54ABD0F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:07:43 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:08:46 brat239 [n=none@p54ABD0F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:28 -!- brat239 [n=none@p54ABD0F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:10:59 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:11:47 -!- josemanuel [n=josemanu@230.1.222.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has quit ["Saliendo"] 22:12:24 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-244-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:13:27 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1FE39.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:13:49 -!- neun [n=chatzill@dslb-084-057-171-180.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:13:55 segv [n=mb@p4FC1CAB1.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:10 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:14:13 anekos [n=anekos@pl305.nas925.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:15:56 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 22:16:57 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:18 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:17:28 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 22:18:36 pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has joined #lisp 22:19:48 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:27:43 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:31:03 -!- hefner [n=hefner@c-68-50-101-139.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:32:03 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 22:32:34 anekos_ [n=anekos@pl087.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:33:06 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-244-099.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:34:09 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6e1e7ac3293daead] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:34:53 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:34:55 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-238-249-35.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit [] 22:35:00 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:35:03 -!- neurogeek [n=neurogee@gentoo/developer/neurogeek] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:35:06 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:36:57 *rvirding* good evening everyone 22:37:07 -!- davazp [n=user@77.Red-83-54-164.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:37:58 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:41:59 sellout [n=greg@12.191.171.2] has joined #lisp 22:42:17 nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-50-169.man.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 22:42:23 Hello all. 22:42:58 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-153.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 22:44:02 hi nyef 22:44:42 hey nyef! 22:45:22 I noticed something recently that I find endlessly amusing. 22:45:43 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A272D7.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["zzz"] 22:45:49 Allegro CL appears to use a fixed-size statically-allocated lisp heap space. 22:46:00 why is that amusing? 22:46:14 Because that's one of the problems that we have with SBCL/Win32. 22:46:55 maybe they're better at choosing an address. Also, they let users change the location when saving a core. 22:47:19 Yes, those are basically the only two options. 22:47:49 anekos__ [n=anekos@pl087.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 22:48:28 But merely allowing the user to change the core location doesn't help if you can't start a core in the first place. 22:48:44 persi [n=user@ec2-72-44-44-74.z-2.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has joined #lisp 22:48:55 If you don't have a running system, you can't bootstrap an environment with a blown mapping. 22:49:08 That's true, but it does help if you can *usually* start it but can't after doing . 22:49:21 I'm going to go with "they chose a better address" as my first choice though. :) 22:49:34 Sure, no question. 22:49:42 nyef: mega's patch gives us backtraces across alien calls, and I have a self-compiling (but obviously broken) system with safe points. Where's my more accurate GC? ;) 22:50:13 pkhuong: Dunno? I've been badly off my game for a while. 22:51:44 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl305.nas925.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [No route to host] 22:51:51 Reading the Allegro documentation for deployment and image building has certainly been interesting, though. 22:52:20 I had thought it was a little more... impressive than it turned out to be. 22:52:45 -!- lyte [n=lyte@unaffiliated/neerolyte] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:52:50 I've found some articles about "newLisp". I would like to hear your oppinion about it 22:53:01 I hate it 22:53:08 Really, it's mostly a customizable make-target-2 cycle. 22:53:29 vixey: anything special you hate? 22:53:43 newLisp 22:53:48 lol 22:53:58 its funny 'cause it's true. 22:54:13 missed a ' :( 22:54:15 I meant about newLisp 22:54:20 Pala-Wan: It's new... for the '60s. It conveniently ignores most-to-all of the research, development, practical experience, etc. since then. 22:54:36 I see 22:54:45 then I shoul just ignore it 22:55:22 Pala-Wan: as an example of what not to do in a modern lisp, it's worth lookig at. 22:55:55 60's is a *little* harsh, it would have been ok for the early 70's 22:56:41 I was just curious about what was it about. Actually I love my SBCL repl with rlwrap 22:56:45 :D 22:57:38 Hrm... Win32 Clozure CL. Has anyone pointed out to gbyers that window procedure callbacks are special cased in win32 to be implementable as cdecl as well as stdcall? 22:57:40 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 22:57:48 jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:58:26 Should take all of a few hours at most to get a working GUI example running, even if it's a port of my old "hello lisp world" test. 22:58:39 -!- Jacob_H [n=jacob@92.0.243.178] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:00:12 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:02:23 -!- Facedown [n=HELLO@c-69-140-211-205.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [No route to host] 23:03:43 xristos [n=x@dns.suspicious.org] has joined #lisp 23:05:40 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:05:54 -!- anekos_ [n=anekos@pl087.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:07:21 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483E155.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:07:51 brat239 [n=none@p54ABD0F0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 23:09:18 semanticpc [n=praveen@wifi-roaming-170-31.nss.udel.edu] has joined #lisp 23:09:59 -!- rpg|away [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [] 23:10:10 how do i maintain two separate state spaces in lisp?? 23:10:32 semanticpc: How do you mean "state spaces"? 23:11:05 i have two trees which i am building 23:11:58 so when both the trees have same nodes then the computation goes wrong 23:12:15 ... Why would you share nodes? 23:12:18 i use the (setf (get 'a 'parent) parent) 23:12:38 i am doing bi directional search 23:12:42 -!- db48x [n=db48x@cl-12.dal-01.us.sixxs.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:13:07 clhs get 23:13:08 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_get.htm 23:13:23 Let's see what we've got... 23:13:50 Ah, I was afraid of that. 23:14:17 Using symbol plists for anything is usually a bad idea. 23:15:20 nyef: why is that? 23:15:49 timor: It's the near edge of a slippery slope. 23:15:54 I am failing to understand this conversation. You're building a tree using plists to hold references to child nodes? 23:16:26 I mean, I'm asking, not saying that's necessarily a bad thing. 23:16:51 Or I guess parent nodes? 23:17:10 It's not necessarily a bad thing, but with two separate trees using the same nodes and same plist indicators? 23:17:27 my telepathic skills are saying that copy-list is the answer to the OP... 23:17:59 I unconditionally and unquesioningly go with drewc's obvious telepathic skills. 23:18:13 but wow.. symbol plists. i can think of 10 better ways to do that! 23:18:22 i guess i got it .... u can assign more than one property like fparent and bparent 23:18:30 drewc: Yeah. Hell, a -hash-table- comes to mind. 23:18:41 -!- Jasko2 is now known as Jasko 23:18:44 is that right ? nyef 23:18:53 hash tables would have been what I had reached for as well 23:19:06 or maybe a struct or a class 23:19:26 semanticpc: For reverse lookup from the data for a node to its actual node or parent node? Yes, it's what I'd reach for. 23:19:30 i thought we were building doubly-linked-lists, and would have gone with structs or conses 23:19:58 k thank u 23:20:14 drewc: No, it appears to be a pair of tree stuctures with symbols as the nodes... 23:20:24 oic .. 23:20:34 But it really depends on the use case and what data is available at which points. 23:20:46 the symbols are the nodes ... that's interesting! 23:21:03 -!- pchrist|univ [n=spirit@gateway.hpc.cs.teiath.gr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:21:20 *drewc* runs off to play with such a wonderfully warped use of symbols 23:21:40 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Read error: 101 (Network is unreachable)] 23:21:53 Well, either the symbols are the nodes and they need a parent link, or the symbols are the data in the nodes, and the use case is to find the enclosing node structure or parent node thereof. Something like that. 23:22:57 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:23:15 -!- elurin [n=user@85.99.132.20] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:23:34 On another subject, at some point soon I'm likely to need a better working project name for "windows deployment lisp", because it's abbreviated "WDL", which will be pronounced by some as "widdle", which, if you'll pardon the pun, is a piss-poor name. 23:24:18 I think the most aptly named Lisp thing ever is "Hunchentoot". You should strive for that level of quality. 23:25:00 jfm3: Edi took _all_ the good names. 23:25:10 Lisp project naming is the mother of invention? 23:25:55 sellout: No, he just has the good taste to develop his sense of naming style from Frank Zappa. 23:26:25 nyef: groan. 23:26:28 anyway "CL-WDL" is *right* *out* 23:26:48 (Oh, good. Someone got it.) 23:27:25 I think we should form a comittee to investigate colors for this bikeshed^W^W^W^Wnames for your project. 23:27:41 how about deployment lisp (for) windows, then you can act like weinreb endorses it and profit! 23:27:41 -!- pjb [n=chatzill@212.145.149.100] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:27:51 I don't -think- I want to call it "nyef's implementation of lisp", at least not during development... 23:28:05 lol! 23:28:08 nyef: On the shoulders of JonL? 23:28:26 sellout: More like to piss off everybody who uses #+nil. 23:28:31 drewc: No, you already took that name. 23:28:31 nyef: i think you should! 23:28:53 sellout: heh 23:28:54 nyef: Yeah, I'd like to have a better argument when I tell people not to do that ;) 23:29:33 -!- milanj [n=milan@77.46.169.122] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 23:30:11 You know, I don't think there's a rule in CLHS preventing CL:NIL from being keywordp T. 23:30:23 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:31:51 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 23:32:25 Oh! And I thought of another one recently. You know how SBCL uses the random number generator for CLOS hashes and such? It seems to me that a conforming implementation (per CLHS) of a hash code generator would be a bit-reversed positive fixnum. So, on a hypothetical 3-bit fixnum system, the hash codes allocated would be, in order, 0, 4, 2, 6, 1, 5, etc. 23:33:16 It's got good distribution across the space of positive fixnums, which is requirement 4 of SXHASH. 23:33:27 Why would (KEYWORDP CL:NIL) be T? 23:34:12 jfm3: If CL:NIL had a symbol-package of the keyword package. I don't recally a requirement for symbols in package COMMON-LISP to have it as their home-package. 23:34:13 nyef: customisable m-t-2 sounds like your previous idea for distribution, no? 23:34:32 jfm3: To show those durned kids they can't just toss #+nil around. 23:34:48 pkhuong: Sortof. Unless it was customizable genesis. 23:35:43 pkhuong: Really, the whole "deployable application" thing only has so many angles of attack. 23:36:00 And this is still far too early in gestation stage to guarantee anything. 23:36:20 Doesn't the SYMBOL-PACKAGE of FOO:BAR always have to be FOO? I'm so not getting it and will shut up and go back to being the emperor of ice cream now. Cats. 23:36:49 jfm3: No, because you can re-export an imported symbol. 23:37:42 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:55 -!- enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:04 -!- vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 23:38:18 -!- semanticpc [n=praveen@wifi-roaming-170-31.nss.udel.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:38:27 so you're suggesting that NIL *might in some conforming common lisp implementation* have keyword as it's home package, and then be exported into the COMMON-LISP package? 23:38:52 it's/its 23:39:11 enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:39:35 Yes, that's what I'm suggesting. 23:39:51 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:40:04 I had never though to import anything from KEYWORD before. Why might I ever want to do this for real? 23:40:36 Can't imagine why you might want to. 23:41:05 myrkraverk` [n=johann@85-220-125-230.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 23:41:13 In fact I think if I ever did import anything from KEYWORD that I should be sternly chastised. 23:41:55 jfm3: Again, it's just to teach those #+nil people a lesson. 23:42:37 So the argument here goes that #+NIL shouldn't be used to comment out code because NIL could be exported from the KEYWORD package? 23:42:38 -!- myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:43:01 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:43:02 jfm3: Well, if :nil is ever in *features* 23:43:26 Which is independent of it being cl:nil or not. 23:43:32 Like for JonL's New Implementation of Lisp, and nyef's potential lisp impl. 23:44:35 nyef: 'struth. Don't know why I was thinking otherwise. I guess I just worry about #+nil too much. 23:44:49 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:44:54 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 23:45:44 I can do (PUSH :NIL *FEATURES*). I'd imagine all kinds of crazy crap will break now. It that the problem? How is that related to exporting CL:NIL from KEYWORDS? 23:46:05 jfm3: It's not related. Just amusing. 23:47:06 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:47:18 So if you're not into #+nil, do you do #| |#, or just use M-x comment-region? None of those really seem right to me. 23:47:35 jfm3: or #+(or) 23:47:52 Oh nice. Hadn't seen that one. 23:48:02 Still doesn't seem right. 23:48:21 jfm3: no? 23:48:24 #-(and), then? 23:48:43 :) 23:48:54 Problem is, emacs refuses to indent them right, it keeps wanting a space before the open-paren. 23:49:31 nyef: I believe that's a paredit issue. 23:50:02 Sure, except that I still don't use paredit. 23:51:08 oh, weird. 23:51:17 So, wait, when does the space get inserted? 23:51:33 With paredit it's right when you type the ( after #+ 23:53:01 It's right when I hit M-(, of course. 23:54:19 Ah :) 23:54:33 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 23:54:41 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:55:09 shouldn't be too hard to fix paredit 23:57:05 jfm3: I'm not sure how it's implemented, really, but I think paredit just doesn't currently maintain enough context for it. Riastradh mentioned that it's either "#+ (" or "(+(" for the time being, and the latter is more important to get right. 23:59:01 I would look at it but I don't use paredit either. For some reason I don't really go faster with it.