00:00:24 no, it negates the problem set 00:00:26 trick question 00:00:28 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has joined #lisp 00:01:33 /msg specbot chls compose 00:02:10 `compose' is not defined in the standard 00:05:23 ok 00:06:19 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-180-44.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:06:29 -!- timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:07:43 -!- yeoh [n=chatzill@120.8.111.218.kmr03-home.tm.net.my] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 00:13:06 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:13:30 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 00:16:47 facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has joined #lisp 00:17:12 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:19:58 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit ["[IRSSI]"] 00:20:17 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-180-44.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:22:48 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-180-44.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Client Quit] 00:22:51 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-180-44.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 00:24:19 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 00:24:30 -!- ianmcorvidae|alt is now known as ianmcorvidae 00:28:09 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 00:28:31 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 00:32:34 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 00:38:50 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.250.193] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 00:45:33 ths_ [n=ths@X434b.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:46:01 -!- mib_vva2shmq [i=de958772@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e0fa6c88687d4caf] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 00:46:36 jtoy [n=jtoy@219.136.203.186] has joined #lisp 00:49:18 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 00:49:22 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 00:53:17 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:58:05 LiamH [n=nobody@138.88.126.7] has joined #lisp 00:58:51 -!- allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:59:17 allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 00:59:45 -!- ths [n=ths@X53ad.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:59:53 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:03:35 disumu [n=disumu@p57A254AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 01:05:20 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-250-152.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:06:41 wasabi__ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 01:10:58 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #lisp 01:22:20 -!- DanielRM [n=daniel@cpc1-grim8-0-0-cust625.nott.cable.ntl.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 01:22:21 fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 01:23:24 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@p4132-ipbfp04kyoto.kyoto.ocn.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:32 -!- envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:24:54 -!- twfxfnxfnf [n=twfxfnf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has left #lisp 01:26:41 splittist [n=splittis@125.214.249.195] has joined #lisp 01:26:44 morning 01:26:47 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has joined #lisp 01:27:11 hello there splittist 01:28:03 -!- eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:28:54 hmmpf 01:29:13 I need to remove items from a bag in random, one at a time, to exhaustion 01:29:23 it works, until the last element 01:29:38 (random (length bag) returns 0 or 1 01:29:59 i just read about john mccarthy 01:30:19 but if I say (random (1- (length bag))) I will be getting a range of indices less than the total elements 01:30:21 anymore news on how he's doing? 01:30:31 HOW IS JOHN? 01:30:40 fusss: (random (length bag)) should be appropriate 01:30:46 fusss: (random (length bag)) will always return an index into the bag. 01:30:56 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [] 01:31:03 if it is not empty. 01:31:07 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:31:28 but when length is zero, random gives an error 01:31:34 so check for that. 01:31:39 I think I need to wrap a function around it 01:31:42 that's when you're done. 01:31:45 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:31:46 fusss: when length is zero, the bag is empty. How can you take an element out? 01:31:58 sorry, this feels like that "doctor, it hurts when I do this" question. 01:32:18 yeah 01:33:32 *fusss* a random list of elements is just a sorted list of elements accessed with random indices .. 01:33:48 found out the hard way :-P 01:34:01 envi^office [n=envi@203.109.25.100] has joined #lisp 01:34:31 fusss: indexing in a list is also lossy. 01:35:05 how would you best simulate a shuffled deck of cards, with items removed from the top? 01:35:31 -!- allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:35:34 fusss: i'd shuffle a vector of cards. 01:36:39 pkhuong: look up that game, Go Fish 01:36:53 it has some very interesting data-structure problems in it 01:37:08 for small values of "interesting" 01:37:57 fusss: is this going somewhere? 01:38:07 yeah 01:38:17 i thought I couldn't remove items from a vector 01:38:32 isn't POP on a list cheaper than array readjusting? 01:38:47 clhs vector-pop 01:38:47 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_vec_po.htm 01:39:02 WTF? 01:39:15 hahahaha, thanks pkhuong. that EXISTED? 01:39:18 fusss: once it's shuffled you can coerce the vector back to a list, or you can use vector pop or simply increment an index. 01:39:41 vector-pop might not be that good if your vector doesn't have a fill pointer. 01:40:11 -!- intrados [n=intrados@rdrt-164-107-204-170.resnet.ohio-state.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 01:40:35 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 01:41:12 nope, fixed size at creation time and only shrinks 01:41:47 i think it's safe to cons away and prototype stuff with lists 01:41:56 you can still use a fill-pointer.. no need to make it adjustable 01:42:40 fusss: it makes sense when they're a good fit for the operations you want to do. 01:43:20 yeah, it's easier for me to see a list as a deck (deque!) with one operation, POP. 01:43:25 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-48-200.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:43:41 a list is not a deque 01:43:47 at least not a good one ;) 01:44:35 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 01:45:10 lists are simple linked lists... One usualy wants deque access to be O(1) at both ends... 01:46:10 Well this is odd. I'm trying to stress-test the CSP library by pummeling a thread with messages over two channels. The machine has two CPUs. Instead of getting 200% CPU usage (indicating both CPUs being utilized), or 100% CPU usage (indicating contention between the two threads), SBCL shows only about 5-10% CPU usage. 01:46:14 fusss pasted "MOST-DUPLICATES" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68837 01:46:18 While a kernel thread called "kipmi0" goes nuts. 01:46:45 that looks suspiciously fugly to me 01:47:10 the paste that is. feedback welcome 01:47:50 Google isn't revealing a connection between kimpi0 and mutual exclusion locks or threads. IPMI is some weird hardware device management thing. 01:48:00 fusss: just use a hash table to count duplicates and keep a running maximum count/value. 01:48:41 I be damned 01:48:51 this makes everything simple 01:48:55 hand == hash table 01:48:58 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-48-200.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:49:17 print-hand uses maphash or with-hashtable-iterator 01:49:49 also learn about mapc vs. mapcar, sort's :key parameter, cdar... 01:51:42 noted. i think i know more about CLOS than I know about cons cells. 01:51:47 -!- rread [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 01:52:15 twfxfnxfnf [n=twfxfnf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has joined #lisp 01:52:34 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 01:53:16 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-184-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 01:56:59 *hefner* uploads http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/misc/mvcopt.jpg and terminates IR1 graphviz amusements 01:57:09 jpg? 01:57:41 I was going to say "it's a little smaller than the png", but I get your point 01:58:42 weird 01:58:51 *hefner* tries again: http://vintage-digital.com/hefner/misc/mvcopt.svg 01:59:03 of course, the text size comes out all wrong in that on my other computer 01:59:26 but it's svg, so I'm not shocked if it works as poorly as any other "web technology" 01:59:39 renders fine here, but without extra JS magic, scrolling/zooming isn't. 01:59:57 -!- borism_ [n=boris@195-50-205-146-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 02:00:11 I have no such magic to offer. 02:00:24 hefner: very nice 02:00:29 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:00:40 anyway, that's from jsnell's hack in cl-dot, but with some pains taken to label things and elminate CTRANs and LVARs 02:01:11 what does it all mean? 02:01:38 dunno 02:01:52 that I've wasted the last couple hours, I think 02:02:45 no 02:02:49 Xach: I tried to make an image macro on wigflip last night, but the remote img URL functionality broken. 02:03:23 fusss: Depends on the URL. It's excessively cautious. 02:03:44 oh, photobucket, IIRC 02:04:16 hefner: I don't know how I feel about the direction of the arrows, but then that's true in python too ;) 02:06:28 -!- mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["*bork bork*"] 02:10:32 Karpar [i=karpar@2001:da8:8000:d010:0:5efe:7dd9:f6d9] has joined #lisp 02:10:53 *twfxfnxfnf* collapses 02:10:54 IPmonger [n=ipmonger@c-68-36-20-248.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:10:58 yeah, it's a little odd how the dataflow edges are (usually) backward 02:11:33 -!- IPmonger [n=ipmonger@c-68-36-20-248.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 02:12:52 I originally wrote cl-dot so that I could make a graph like that 02:13:16 and then found that I didn't understand the graphs any better than the compiler trace file dump :-( 02:15:45 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@219.136.203.186] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:16:47 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:18:14 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-224-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 02:19:28 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has quit [] 02:20:03 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Client Quit] 02:20:48 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:23:12 zu22 [n=ubuntu@unaffiliated/zu22] has joined #lisp 02:24:03 can lisp handle really big numbers? i wanted to write a physics program that handles values like 10^100 02:25:55 facetious_ [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has joined #lisp 02:26:37 zu22: such an integer would fit in memory, but numerical computations usually stick to floating point values. 02:27:50 pkhuong: ok, thanks 02:30:10 somebody please help :( 02:30:12 http://pastebin.com/d5157e43f 02:30:58 dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.83.7.189] has joined #lisp 02:30:59 i'm really c lose, i know i am 02:32:07 you seem to have extra parentheses there 02:32:16 where at 02:32:29 lol 02:32:40 the error should indicate where 02:32:51 twfxfnxfnf: paste.lisp.org is nicer than regular pastebin for lisp code. 02:33:18 twfxfnxfnf: what is it supposed to do? 02:33:28 i don't even know how to explain 02:33:34 this program is like 02:33:47 some random thing i'm supposed to be changing 02:33:53 there are like 35 layers of abstraction 02:34:38 *twfxfnxfnf* sighs loudly 02:35:29 this function in itself is supposed to find the node 2 nodes away, if available, 1 if not, that will have the lowest cost, where the cost is the cumulative cost of the two steps to that node 02:36:12 there's a band named "sea of deprivation" that wrote songs about code like this, if you replace "deprivation" with "parentheses" 02:37:14 oh I see it! 02:37:40 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [No route to host] 02:37:41 twfxfnxfnf: you have an extra paren 02:37:48 after biggest? 02:37:55 (dolist (bab-node successors) ... 02:38:00 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@138.88.126.7] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:38:04 it's ((let right now, should be (let 02:38:14 *twfxfnxfnf* smacks head 02:38:16 use a paren matching editor 02:38:27 i'm using vim 02:38:41 good lord! 02:38:42 dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has joined #lisp 02:38:53 :O 02:39:39 don't use parens for making blocks 02:39:57 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 02:40:20 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit [Client Quit] 02:40:25 Use PROGs, but most likely, whatever form you need for a body would probably have an implicit PROGN 02:40:31 ths [n=ths@X75d0.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 02:40:41 i thought loop was an implicit PROGN 02:41:18 -!- ths_ [n=ths@X434b.x.pppool.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:41:42 was implicitly a PROGN 02:41:57 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:42:29 yes it has 02:42:42 jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.45.135] has joined #lisp 02:42:54 try to forget "SETQ", and stick to setf 02:42:57 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-224-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:43:18 -!- facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:43:39 facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has joined #lisp 02:43:48 also, don't use massive LETs to compute the value of an assignment 02:43:53 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 02:43:58 *** - SYSTEM::%EXPAND-FORM: #'NODE-H-COST should be a lambda expression 02:44:19 (setf foo (let ...................)) should fit on a single line, if not, restructure your code. perhaps factor out the left to a function. 02:44:25 do i do (lambda (#'node-h-cost))? 02:44:32 no 02:44:50 #' is not syntactically valid 02:45:01 the lambda parameters are symbols, which are bound later 02:45:12 ok 02:45:58 (funcall (compose #'- (#'node-h-cost)) ..) should probably be 02:46:15 (funcall (compose #'- #'node-h-cost) ...) 02:46:43 compose, well, COMPOSES two functions into a pipe 02:47:46 brb 02:47:50 the code below that finds a continually higher value 02:48:03 the composure is to negate the function, to take the smallest value 02:48:21 your cond is broken two 02:48:22 too 02:49:06 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:49:14 you can sequence expressions if there is no PROGN or similar construct 02:49:30 (setq best-val val) 02:49:31 (setq biggest (list x))) 02:50:01 you want these to execute right after the other, but COND expects only one expression. since you want them for side-effect, do something like: 02:50:12 (progn (setq best-val val) (setq biggest (list x)))) 02:50:41 just, replacing the cond? 02:51:08 's third argument 02:51:19 setq and setf can do multiple assignments in a single form. 02:51:19 fusss: huh 02:51:25 look at the form of COND i nthe hyperspec 02:51:37 this is dizzying 02:51:48 fusss: I think _you_ should look at the syntax 02:51:58 look at lines 21 and 22. 02:52:19 ahhhhhhhh 02:52:22 you're right 02:53:09 fusss pasted "slightly better" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68841 02:53:24 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.83.7.189] has left #lisp 02:54:14 look at that, brb 02:54:20 what's the point of funcalling in that code 02:54:45 why not just (- (node-h-cost ...)) 02:54:51 -!- xristos [n=xristos@dns.suspicious.org] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:55:02 let me make sure that works 02:55:14 -!- facetious_ [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:55:18 yes 02:55:37 who wrote it? 02:55:55 i did 02:56:05 some of it 02:56:47 as in, 80% of this function 02:56:50 make friends with slime, helps allot 03:02:25 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit ["Leaving"] 03:16:20 -!- dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has left #lisp 03:16:43 -!- spiderbyte is now known as away-mode 03:17:29 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:17:42 xbxbxb [n=xb@p54ABD5FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:20:08 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:20:22 tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has joined #lisp 03:22:05 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 03:26:29 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:29:32 i read that quote operator will cause anything after it to not be evaluated yet in example i saw: (list 'my (+ 2 1) "Sons") results in => MY 3 Sons. if quote is used inside list does it only apply to the argument directly after it until a space is encountered? do the double quotes protect something from being evaluated in a list? why was my printed as MY after it was evaulated (why the capitalization?) since it was protected by '? 03:30:03 there is a space between 'my and (+ 2 1) 03:30:15 -!- facetious [n=facetiou@66.92.130.200] has quit ["Bye"] 03:30:20 quote only quotes one expression 03:30:32 my is an atom, one expression 03:30:41 (+ 2 1) is a list, another expression 03:31:06 if you wanna quote both, well, you quote both (list 'my '(+ 2 1)) 03:31:49 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A254AA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:32:27 you can quote the entire composite expression, end to end, by putting a quote before "(list ..) 03:32:46 as in '(list my (+ 2 1)) <--- see "my" isn't quoted on its own 03:32:49 good morning 03:32:58 morn beach 03:33:58 ah 03:34:13 i see 03:35:01 zu22: by default the Lisp reader converts the characters making up the symbol to uppercase 03:35:03 "Sons" is not protected by ' and it is an atom so why isn't it evaluated? 03:35:06 -!- xbxb [n=xb@p54ABD6A9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:35:20 zu22: (as long as they're unescaped, of course) 03:35:23 zu22: some atoms are evaluated, like symbols 03:35:33 sons IS evaluated, it evaluates to itself, a constant string 03:35:48 "Sons" I mean 03:36:01 type "SOns" at the lisp prompt and see what comes back 03:36:02 fusss: so ' and " are equivalent? my book only mentions ' 03:36:08 fusss: ok 03:36:12 they're NOT equivalent 03:36:25 ' is for quoting any valid lisp expression 03:36:30 " is STRING delimeter 03:36:52 -!- malune [n=malune@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 03:37:04 ah 03:37:28 if you put anything between double quotes,they will be taken as printable constant strings 03:37:39 zu22: There are three kinds of expressions: self evaluating expressions (everything except conses and symbols), symbols (that are considered to be variables, and composit expressions (that are things like function calls or macro calls). 03:38:12 sorry if these questions are really dumb i'm just trying to get this all straight, i think i understand now 03:38:19 beach: ok 03:38:30 nothing is dumb about it. it's a valid question. 03:38:32 some symbols evaluate to themselves, too 03:38:35 k 03:39:14 to drive the point home, if you don't QUOTE (with ') any expression, it will be evaluated. If you don't quote (with ") a string, it will probably be a syntax error :-) 03:39:49 http://pastebin.com/d731e3f79 03:39:54 adeht: That's for a different reason. It's because they happen to have themselves as values. 03:39:56 i'm really close, i think 03:39:58 :O 03:40:03 any more charity in you 03:40:24 fusss: ah 03:40:26 beach: right 03:40:28 twfxfnxfnf: you're getting errors? 03:40:28 i think it's just one mismatched parentheses but my mind snaps figuring out the scopes 03:40:39 parenthesis 03:40:39 yes 03:40:49 twfxfnxfnf: could you possibly split that monster up into smaller functions? 03:40:51 twfxfnxfnf: you will CERTAINLY need to learn emacs 03:40:53 that would be quite nice 03:41:13 not without creating like 03:41:17 5-parameter functions 03:41:28 lies 03:41:28 with lazer eyezzzzzz 03:41:32 split off the dolists 03:41:53 when i make an error (syntax) in lisp compiler/interpreter (lisp environment?) it will produce these *very* verbose errors and diagnostic messages. it's like compiling C with '-Wall -strict' heh. getting used to that. 03:41:58 that's what parameters are for. And even then, there's nothing wrong with 5ary functions. 03:41:59 twfxfnxfnf: that code is pretty bad. 03:42:10 this is first-day lisp 03:42:12 twfxfnxfnf: you're missing ONE closing paren at the end 03:42:13 i know it's bad 03:42:23 my xterm only saves 80 lines of text so if i have a huge lisp expressions i am typing and it scrolls past the buffer size is it lost forever or it can be recovered? 03:42:25 literally at the end? 03:42:29 twfxfnxfnf: then we should work on improving it. 03:42:30 yep 03:42:39 you've got to be kidding me. Doesn't vim at least have paren matching? 03:42:39 or should i keep habit of pasting it in a file and saving it as i work? 03:42:43 or are you just terrible at using vim? 03:42:53 zu22: you should use slime. 03:42:53 i'm really tired 03:43:15 zu22: typically you work within a rich environment, say Emacs with Slime 03:43:27 it's almost "graphical", and works for SSH 03:43:28 ok i better stop using nano :D 03:43:33 HAHAHA 03:43:35 lol 03:43:50 fusss: there's plenty of lispers, some pretty great, that do not use emacs and slime 03:43:56 see the slime videos online, will make you feel jelous 03:44:27 sykopomp: look, there are also people who broke world records in hopping who can out run me on one foot 03:44:41 i still haven't quite wrapped my mind around the whole "data-as-code / code-as-data" paradigm yet but i'm working on it 03:44:41 ) 03:44:51 i'm used to notepad++ 03:44:53 which kind of doesn't suck 03:45:06 zu22: it's more of a pun than a philosophy 03:45:12 I wrote my first lisp code on CLISP with Notepad, no ++ there 03:45:16 twfxfnxfnf: If it doesn't indent your code correctly, then I would say it does suck. 03:45:28 hefner: would you say it is a truism? 03:46:00 *twfxfnxfnf* patiently watches tex download and then fail to install 03:46:03 OPTred1 [n=Norman@208.138.33.26] has joined #lisp 03:46:23 with emacs, you can evaluate your code the instant you type it. I have a habit of pressing C-M-x over C code and be surprised when nothing happens 03:47:08 zu22: some of us lispers are pretty dumb people. I never needed code as data, just code as code. 03:47:34 fusss: there are some C ``repl'' hacks (even an unmaintained interpreter). You could hack something up. 03:48:11 fusss: hehe 03:48:25 i am using book "ANSI Common Lisp" by Paul Graham 03:48:30 fusss: you never wrote a macro? 03:48:34 is that a good book for total lisp beginner like me? 03:48:35 good book 03:48:55 zu22: Its style is a bit strange, but it's OK. 03:49:04 adeht: yeah I do, of course. but it doesn't feel as glamorous as the blog posts by non-lispers praising lisp make it seem to be 03:49:06 zu22: ACL doesn't really follow along with a lot of conventions, and there's not a terribly big amount of love for it here. 03:49:08 beach: oh 03:49:12 maybe i take it for granted to work that way 03:49:49 so there is a canonical lisp style or many styles? i felt the latter. even in C i see at least 4 styles when looking at code that seem to dominate. and some FOSS projects have their own preferred coding guidelines. 03:49:52 zu22: It's a great book 03:50:08 sykopomp: oh 03:50:10 zu22: in Lisp, it is pretty uniform. 03:50:12 fusss: k 03:50:24 Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has joined #lisp 03:50:36 it's fairly uniform, even though it gives you a lot of freedom. As with everything, there's small variations in style. 03:51:02 how do i undo undo in vim 03:51:04 where u is undo 03:51:06 best way to find out is paste here and wait for the jeers ;-) 03:51:12 zu22: This is a good document: http://norvig.com/luv-slides.ps 03:51:42 sykopomp: you can have a huge lisp program on a single line with no line breaks i guess. but that would be atrocious style. 03:51:46 Paul Graham's style, though, is particularly different from most other styles out there. 03:51:59 fusss: ok :) 03:52:07 beach: downloading that, thx 03:52:14 twfxfnxfnf: ctrl-R 03:52:47 zu22: it's beyond that. Paul Graham uses a lot of sort of Scheme-ish idioms, and he rejects a couple of things that others use a lot, like COND and LOOP 03:53:08 and CLOS 03:53:10 sheesh 03:53:13 oh yes, and CLOS 03:53:22 functional purism 03:53:43 sykopomp: I don't find that it's so very different (in ACL/OL at least). mostly just the naming and some ugly explicit progns.. 03:53:57 in a multiparadigm language. It's like sawing the front hinds off of a trick-pony so he can only walk in two. 03:54:02 sure, it walks, but .. 03:54:06 oh yeah, he also uses funky schemeish naming conventions (lst instead of list) 03:54:27 sykopomp: ah, so maybe i should just download that gigamonkey lisp book and use this book just for reference? i don't want to pick up bad style at the beginning will be harder to un-learn. 03:54:50 zu22: nothing that can't be undone 03:55:00 the only other actual lisp book i have is "Common Lisp" by Guy Steele, Jr. (c) 1984 Digital Equipment Corp! 03:55:04 zu22: PCL is pretty well-aligned with the styles you'll find in this channel, possibly in c.l.l. as well 03:55:19 and PCL is a fantastic book to learn from 03:55:53 cool 03:56:17 fusss: C++ is also multiparadigm but I definitely try to avoid some of those paradigms.. 03:56:31 i am kinda broke now but i do plan to purchase a copy of PCL and my Indian printing of K&R is brittle and falling apart so i need a fresh copy but the price is insane for such a short book lol! 03:56:32 fusss: and keep in mind, before you judge Graham's style too much. It worked for him. Heck. It worked quite well. 03:56:49 sykopomp: no contest here 03:57:29 zu22: read it off his site 03:57:31 but CLOS is just one of those things that makes a newcomer to Lisp just go "WTF? why don't we have this elsewhere?" 03:57:45 and the K&R Answers book is like 60 USD (no joke!) 03:57:55 zu22: every lisp book is online somewhere. learn to search. 03:58:00 -!- away-mode is now known as spiderbyte 03:58:23 fusss: I should hope not. 03:58:32 sukopomp: i tend to learn better when i have a physical book i can read wherever, i try to limit how long i read on computer since it makes my eyes hurt (i wear glasses). 03:58:37 and i have no printer atm. 03:58:42 CLtL, PCL, OnLisp 03:59:01 fusss: ok 03:59:01 zu22: ANSI Common Lisp is a fine book to begin with. just make sure it's not the only one. 03:59:03 geez, there is like 10 "Common Lisp" titles 03:59:12 fusss: but not LiSP, ANSI Common Lisp, etc. 03:59:17 adeht: ok i will keep working through this then 04:00:21 the Quinnec book comes way late in the game, it can wait IMO 04:00:33 On Lisp has some particularly nice things 04:00:45 particularly how it teaches macros 04:00:49 fusss: sure, but the point is that it is not online and it is a Lisp book. 04:00:53 or so it seems, dunno what others think 04:01:07 sykopomp: It is amazing, yes. 04:01:17 sykopomp: I used to teach a course from it. 04:01:30 beach: I should've qualified my statement and said "begginer's" .. backpeddling here 04:01:33 beach: I want to send you chocolate just for teaching a course on lisp. 04:01:39 beach: I wish my profs were that awesome. :( 04:01:43 zu22: for style "Practical Common Lisp" and "Paradigms of AI Programming" are the usual standards 04:02:10 sykopomp: Thanks! We now have two Lisp-based courses at the university for a total of 9 ECTS credits. 04:02:29 I didn't learn Lisp until I stopped writing "scripts" in perl, shell and whatever else that was around 04:02:45 world domination plans well underway 04:02:50 *sykopomp* cackles madly 04:03:05 sykopomp: The one I taught at the engineering school got canceled, but I have proposed a new one named "Programming (with) a Programmable Programming Language". 04:03:31 mouthful :-) 04:04:06 I wish more people would read Richard Fateman's papers and news posts on numerical computing in Lisp 04:04:19 1 mandatory course with some lisp or haskell here, and we're pretty much forced to use scheme for compilers. 04:04:46 ... which reminds me. I need to come up with some Lisp softare to use as illustration in the programming-project course next semester. 04:04:53 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:04:59 IME, Fateman's code is incredibly painful to read. I guess he's used to the contortions one has to go through to get decent code out of GCL. 04:05:00 Last year, I wrote a small word processor that they had to improve. 04:05:10 adeht: ah 04:05:14 *sykopomp* wonders if a MUD is a nice thing to teach with. 04:05:33 sykopomp: that is one of the things I am considering. 04:05:44 :3 04:06:14 This "Common Lisp" by Guy Steele, Jr. from 1984 can it still help me or is it out-dated? 04:06:46 I'm writing one to learn the ropes, if you want to check it out :) 04:06:57 zu22: it has been obseleted by second edition, which is online, and a final ANSI standard, also online 04:07:03 *sykopomp* 04:07:34 zu22: CLtL2 is fine, but contains some differences with what finally made it into the standard. 04:07:46 ok will keep that in mind 04:08:35 -!- Karpar [i=karpar@2001:da8:8000:d010:0:5efe:7dd9:f6d9] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:09:22 not so long ago I stumbed across an article by Jonathan Amsterdam (ITERATE fame) describing a somewhat prologish language for writing text adventures 04:09:32 sykopomp: Is it working? 04:09:40 (in Lisp) 04:09:57 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:09:57 beach: most of the core is. I'm just working on the commands system now before I release 1.0 04:10:13 sykopomp: Does it have a GUI? 04:10:41 beach: nope, telnet/netcat right now. I'm gonna write a GUI for it at some point in the future. 04:11:01 sykopomp: Hmm, OK. 04:11:04 please, not mcclim 04:11:10 or any other clim 04:11:12 (hahaha) 04:11:22 fusss: what is your problem? 04:11:34 fusss: mcclim does nice things. Beach can tell you all about it. :) 04:12:09 I try to learn it 3 years ago; it had me at panes, sheets, presentations and rectangles. 04:12:18 so? 04:12:30 it's HARD 04:12:33 fusss: Then don't use it, but please don't tell others what they should or should not use. 04:12:46 fusss: you sound like Kenny! 04:12:54 TAKE THAT BACK! 04:12:56 lol :-P 04:13:31 maybe a nice cheap layer over clim 04:13:50 fusss: it is fine as it is thank you very much. 04:14:08 beach: oh, I dunno. I tend to think anything could use improvement :) 04:14:21 sykopomp: but not in the form of a cheap layer. 04:14:28 good point 04:14:50 I really didn't need a cheat sheet to write something CAPI 04:14:59 fusss: I am very surprised to see remarks like that from Lisp people. Those are the kinds of remarks we get from people who do not want to learn Lisp "Too hard". 04:15:15 let me pause here 04:15:36 I lost 3 months worth of code in a disk crash trying to port CLX to Corman JUST to run McClim 04:15:49 fusss: that is hardly the fault of McCLIM. 04:16:01 no it's not. just telling you where I'm coming from. 04:16:14 simple APIs are a Good Thing 04:16:29 fusss: then you should abandon Lisp right away. 04:16:43 didn't you write bordeaux-threads? THAT is a good thing. Took me 30 minutes to move from sb-threads. 04:16:46 for simple tasks, simple APIs. For big, complex tasks, a worthy API is always needed. 04:16:59 fusss: No, I did not write Bordeaux-Threads 04:17:24 your name shows up as bordeaux, but a good library nevertheles 04:17:32 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:17:40 fusss: As with many other things, sometimes the investment is worth it. Just because you don't think so doesn't mean that others should share your opinion. 04:17:52 fusss: Bordeaux is a city. 04:18:00 fusss: and keep in mind, bordeaux-threads isn't much simpler than a lot of threading APIs out there. Portable libraries like that -have- to be greatest-common-denominater. 04:18:16 I wrote "CLOS" code knowing the syntax for just defclass, defmethod and make-instance. 04:18:40 fusss: I would think multiple dispatch would be way too hard for you to learn. 04:18:51 with CAPI, you just make an instance of a GUI element and you CONTAIN it. 04:19:30 believe it or not, I slurped Keene's book in a weekend of frantic hacking/reading 04:19:46 "don't make me think", and such 04:19:52 this looks really cool: http://common-lisp.net/project/cl-opengl/ i hope they finish it and have a complete Open GL implementation 04:20:05 zu22: it's not an implementation. 04:20:11 http://www.cs.ubc.ca/local/reading/proceedings/ddj/2000_06/articles/1988/8804/8804toc.htm "Creating an Adventurous Language" for those who want a reference. 04:20:11 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:20:27 pkhuong: oh should i have said library? 04:21:14 zu22: it's probably complete for most of your casual needs. just start playing with it :-) 04:21:49 fusss: cool 04:22:28 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:23:21 but GL makes you think hard. Careful there. 04:24:34 We wouldn't want that now would we? 04:24:37 -!- OPTred1 [n=Norman@208.138.33.26] has left #lisp 04:26:02 and here's me thinking that lisp making you think more than code was a feature, not a bug. 04:26:09 maybe I'm just dense. 04:26:41 Count me in, then. 04:27:37 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:28:57 intrados [n=intrados@rdrt-164-107-204-170.resnet.ohio-state.edu] has joined #lisp 04:30:15 froog_ [n=david@87.192.28.247] has joined #lisp 04:30:41 beach: simple http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=dialerxb1.png 04:30:51 anybody still willing to help me on this 04:31:43 only if you are willing to help yourself. 04:31:45 anekos [n=anekos@pl305.nas925.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 04:32:17 twfxfnxfnf: debugging is an activity best done alone ^_^ 04:32:39 done share the joy with the ungrateful Other 04:33:28 *twfxfnxfnf* is going to collapse 04:33:38 fusss: some of that code doesn't look right 04:34:38 yeah, the code is in Emacs/CLISP but the demo is running under LW personal 04:35:02 fusss: no, I mean the code itself, like that first setf in hangup-callback 04:35:37 I just haven't figured out how to use the LW browser to lookup classes and their initargs 04:35:41 quick hack there 04:36:21 I just reverse engineer stuff with apropos and describe, instead of reading manuals (aha! and this is the guy who wants to critique clim? pfffft) 04:36:26 why do some of your parens look like | ? 04:36:54 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.51.72.181] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:36:56 have you slept lately, sykopomp ? :-P they don't. 04:37:18 =-o 04:37:20 i think it worked! 04:37:30 fusss: in the picture, they look like it. 04:37:58 Courier New, Regular, 10. Default Emacs font on expee 04:38:38 brb, cigarette 04:39:06 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 04:40:11 This all reminds me of Harrop who wants to prove that F# is better than Lisp by showing toy programs. 04:42:11 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-1.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 04:43:12 *** - NTH: # is not a list 04:43:24 >:ioooo 04:43:50 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47926.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:11 http://paste.lisp.org/display/68845#1 04:45:16 -!- froog [n=david@87.192.28.247] has quit [Connection timed out] 04:45:21 it's in one of the dolists or 04:45:33 from the "first grandchildren," maybe 04:45:44 i really don't know 04:46:52 anyone? 04:46:55 split your function to smaller ones that can be easily tested in the REPL 04:47:11 twfxfnxfnf: When someone hands me code that is not correctly indented, I quit reading it, because otherwise I would have to count parentheses. 04:47:26 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 04:47:31 are there scripts to indent it automatically 04:47:35 online 04:47:44 twfxfnxfnf: Emacs does that just fine. 04:48:02 paste.lisp.org does the parenthesis highlighting 04:48:36 twfxfnxfnf: You don't get it, do you? Lisp programmers count on indentation to understand the code. 04:48:54 we also tend to prefer properly-balanced parentheses 04:48:58 usually 04:48:58 twfxfnxfnf: also, what is the setf following a return supposed to do? 04:49:24 the return should only happen 04:49:28 when that condition is satisfied, no? 04:49:35 otherwise the loop continues 04:50:37 twfxfnxfnf: your indentation suggests that the setf always follows the return because they are aligned. 04:50:53 put your mouse over the parentheses 04:51:01 I will not, no. 04:51:48 twfxfnxfnf: You see, you are the one wanting help. We are trying to tell you the conditions under which we are willing to help, but you don't seem to get it. 04:51:52 nite folks 04:51:53 -!- fusss [n=chatzill@pool-72-66-40-106.washdc.east.verizon.net] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 2.0.0.17/2008082909]"] 04:51:56 no, see 04:51:59 i'm a human being 04:52:04 asking you to execute an act of empathy 04:52:15 this is my first day coding lisp 04:52:20 i'm going to make mistakes in indentation 04:52:35 this is not your first day coding lisp 04:52:40 you are a sack of lies. 04:52:49 this is my first day writing more than two lines of code 04:52:52 twfxfnxfnf: I don't agree. If this is your first day of Lisp, you should start by indenting your code, because otherwise you will never make any progress. 04:53:35 you can most definitely start writing code properly from the very beginning. Thinking that proper coding practices are 'a nice extra' is a slippery slope that will deal to awful code. In any language. 04:54:10 s/deal/lead/ 04:54:18 i'm trying to get the feel of like 80 different functions at the same time 04:54:19 ok? 04:54:26 this is not an easy language 04:54:31 twfxfnxfnf: there's no need to argue; just fix the indentation 04:55:46 fine 04:55:48 http://paste.lisp.org/display/68845#2 04:55:56 there's that one line of indentation fixed 04:56:34 what about the other lines 04:56:58 there are all sorts of tabs and shit 04:57:00 i was using vim 04:57:46 I think there are some Vim... thingies... to help you write Lisp 04:58:04 "Limp" or something 04:58:45 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:01:26 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4549D.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:03:28 -!- holymoo [n=biteme@S01060016b6b53675.vf.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:03:55 If I want to pass an element (not a list) to a function, but the function gets in a form of a list, is there a method to take out the elements out of the list? For e.g. (setf var 'a). I want to pass just 'a but what the function is actually getting is '(a). 05:04:51 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 05:05:19 Goan: you make no sense, but perhaps you need APPLY. 05:05:22 clhs apply 05:05:23 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_apply.htm 05:08:50 okay, I have defined a class person. I want to pass an instance of a person (let's say his name is John) i.e. (defparameter *John* (make-node ....) to a function where I am getting its name as (name argument).. 05:09:19 but if I get the argument enclosed within ().. I can't do (name (argument)) 05:10:02 Goan: if you just call the function with the instance of the person, then the person won't be in a list. 05:10:36 -!- hiteki [n=user@102.29.100-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:11:05 beach, the problem is before passing the argument .. i am doing other operations .. and by the end of those operations what I am left to pass as an argument is a list. :-( 05:11:22 Goan: what is in the list? 05:11:38 just a person 05:11:44 (f (car list)) 05:12:00 hiteki [n=user@102.29.100-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 05:12:14 what's f for .. first? 05:12:19 your function 05:12:23 ahh 05:12:38 you haven't told us it's name, so I used a generic name. 05:12:45 I'm having some problems with randomness; every time I run my code, (random ...) seems to generate the same results. I'm not passing a random state. Is there a library that does decent /dev/random stuff or something? 05:12:46 Goan: same as (f (first list)) 05:12:51 I was managing with car until now.. when the code has started looking ugly. so I thought of using something standard 05:13:39 that means i'll have to work out my way with car only 05:13:48 Goan: if you have a list and that list contains an element that you need to pass to a function, you have to take the list apart somehow. Using CAR (or FIRST) is what you need to do. 05:14:11 yea.. I thought perhaps there could be a magical way out 05:14:13 :-) 05:14:39 thanks 05:14:42 Goan: Not even Lisp can guess whether you want to pass a list or the first element of a list to your function, so it just does what you tell it to do. 05:14:59 i can understand. 05:17:11 How about there are more than one elements, and I want to take all of them out 05:17:29 Goan: but your function only takes one element, right? 05:17:43 This is other function now. 05:18:05 set-difference operates on list 05:18:08 lists 05:18:08 Goan: OK, if you have N elements in a list, and a function that takes N arguments, use APPLY. 05:18:32 but what i am giving is (set-difference ((list1)) (list2)) 05:18:47 so i want to take out (list1) 05:18:50 Goan: do you know how many elements there are in the difference? 05:19:10 increasingly could reach upto 130 05:19:29 wait a sec, could reach upto 2300 05:19:47 Goan: you have to tell us what you want to do with those elements in order for us to be able to answer that question. 05:20:00 set-difference 05:20:23 Goan: well, um, call set-difference then. 05:20:34 *** - NTH: # is not a list 05:20:40 is it only trying to access the state part? 05:20:49 twfxfnxfnf: that's true, a node is not a list. 05:21:06 what's the donode equivalent of dolist 05:21:19 :D 05:22:14 twfxfnxfnf: if your tree is represented as a list, you could flatten the list and use dolist on it 05:22:17 beach, I want to use set-difference as (set-difference '(4 5 6 7) '(1 3 4)).... not (set-difference '('(4 5 6 7)) '(1 3 4)) 05:22:43 there is a function that is generating 4 5 67 05:23:22 Goan: (except for too many quotes) Your list still contains a single element, which is a list of four elements, so you still use CAR. 05:23:23 and because there's more than one element .. I can only return all of them within a list from that function 05:23:37 ah, right! 05:23:46 ya ya 05:23:52 ja ja 05:24:28 mek||malloc [n=mek@c-24-63-142-41.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:24:44 Hey all. 05:25:45 hello mek||malloc 05:25:54 Has anyone here ever used CLIPS? And if so would they be able to discuss how they feel it compares to LISP with respect to Intelligent System design? 05:26:18 My professor is having us learn CLIPS -- which I know little about. And it just seems like LISP is so much better suited for the job. 05:26:49 Unfortunately there is no CLIPS channel (so sorry if I am trolling). 05:26:54 do you mean.. CLISP? 05:26:58 the implementation?... 05:27:01 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-110.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:27:11 no, he means CLIPS. 05:27:13 sykopomp: Nope. 05:27:19 beach: Yessir. 05:27:38 I have a bit of LISP experience and it just seems really strange that it would be suggested that I learn a language with very little support. 05:27:51 I thought expert systems went away? 05:27:56 I was just curious if anyone has used LISP & CLIPS 05:28:07 ooh. Bizarre. 05:28:19 sykopomp: Indeed. :o) 05:28:29 I had never heard of the language before this class, personally. 05:28:42 mek||malloc: is it an overview class? 05:28:50 Semi. 05:28:54 mogunus: I heard you got whacked by a random apotheosized sarah palin? 05:29:00 or something? 05:29:01 We spent all of two weeks on Prolog and now we're moving to CLIPS. 05:29:07 I would have rather just taken a full course on LISP. 05:29:08 sykopomp: Yes, yes I did. 05:30:30 :o) Well thank you kindly anyways for listening to my inquirey. 05:30:40 I'll see if there's an article anywhere on the bennefits of CLIPS. 05:30:51 Hope you all have a wonderful morning. 05:31:04 -!- mek||malloc [n=mek@c-24-63-142-41.hsd1.vt.comcast.net] has left #lisp 05:31:33 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 05:31:52 beach, if I am writing my code sequentially line after line.. like (setf 'mother (compute-mother *John*)) (compute-aunt 'mother) .... or feeding the output of one into another function like.. (compute-aunt (setf 'mother (aompute-mother *John*))) .... which one is more readable? 05:33:14 if you'll say the latter one, then how much levels of output feeding is generally tolerated? 05:35:29 milanj [n=milan@79.101.250.193] has joined #lisp 05:36:51 Goan: mixing destructive operations like setf with function application is not generally very readable 05:37:32 Goan: so if you actually need to bind the objects that you create to named variables, do not do it inside function applications. 05:38:06 Goan: What H4ns said. 05:38:11 Goan: note that setf can be used to set any number of variables, not just one - (setf a 1 b 2) - that can be used to reduce clutter 05:38:29 Goan: If you don't really need the names, then nest function applications. 05:38:55 Goan: what beach says 05:39:07 Goan: If you have to many nested applications, use (let* ((mother (compute-mother ..)) (aunt (compute-aunt mother))) ...) 05:39:18 or you can use linebreaks. 05:39:45 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit ["Leaving..."] 05:42:08 setf was just an example, they're actually functions I have created that need the output of one another. So should I go on nesting them as I am doing now (function1 (function2 ....)) 05:42:46 like this.. there are about 5 of them but the argument increase and decrease when going up from the innermost function..outwards 05:42:59 no. of arguments* 05:44:25 it was looking weird, and for the same reason I asked on the channel 05:44:26 Goan: i'd suggest that you write it down and then try to read it. if you're confused, try to think of ways how to express yourself clearer. 05:45:01 I would better have it sequential way.. for others to be comfortable with what I have writtem 05:45:47 Goan: i find it harder to follow imperative code than functional code, but that is just me. 05:46:39 hmm. 05:54:49 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.250.193] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 05:57:35 eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:06:50 Goan pasted "iterative-push" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68847 06:07:37 I am trying to write an iterative-push function, which will simply return the list1, if the list2 were empty 06:08:22 I am not sure how to return list1 for the if-clause 06:08:54 <_3b> (if (null list2) list1 (dolist...)) ? 06:09:21 ooo 06:09:31 tks 06:09:34 <_3b> not sure that would return what you want for the other case though 06:10:04 <_3b> or maybe it does, think i misread 06:10:11 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 06:10:42 -!- DeadJarv is now known as Stateless 06:12:00 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 06:12:16 <_3b> return-from might also be interesting, but not really needed in that case 06:20:14 return worked beautifully. :) 06:20:38 -!- amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has quit ["Leaving"] 06:20:52 H4ns: aroundp 06:22:55 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 06:28:20 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-103-1.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 06:29:07 H4ns: (not (aroundp 'drewc)) =>t :) i'll get you a 256 64 bit VPS first thing in the morning (PST). 06:29:54 *drewc* has a rule about root after 10pm 06:29:57 clhs: #. 06:29:58 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm 06:30:02 drewc, :)) 06:31:18 tic: it's really a rule about root after 10 _drinks_ .. but i wouldn't say that on a logged channel! :P 06:31:51 drewc, uhm, uhm... ;) But yeah, the chances of screwing up when doing irreversible things late at night is probably higher. 06:32:41 tic: i;'ve been doing this long enough to know the power of a drunko (like a typo .. only worse) 06:33:07 drewc, mhm. let's invent a system-wide undo! 06:33:29 tic: if only! unix is no friend to 'oops!' 06:33:43 drewc, piece of cake, just add /dev/undo! 06:33:59 "oh oh .. that seemed fast' ... -< famous last words 06:34:01 drewc, by the way, are you handling the project requests at c-l.net? 06:34:07 hehe 06:34:22 tic: ya ... i have no problem doing that now .. what do you need? :) 06:35:00 drewc, I requested a project, Limp, but haven't heard back. Do you hate me because I use Lisp? ;) 06:35:03 eh, Vim 06:35:18 tic: ya.. we don't like your kind 06:36:05 drewc, aha! 06:36:05 tic: honestly though .. i don't see the request.. subject line? 06:37:18 drewc, to: admin@c-l.net, subject: Project request: Limp 06:38:40 tic: odd... i don't see it at all (and searching for 'limp' in my spam folder .. well ...). resend and cc drewc@tech.coop 06:38:49 drewc, alright! 06:39:11 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 06:39:34 tic: and if you need some v1@gra or c1@lis ... well... i can help it seems :) 06:40:18 drewc, oh! we have a ad series running in the news papers here in Sweden, crimemedicine.com, by the Swedish national drugstore-dept-thingy. :) 06:43:14 Goan pasted "iterative-push" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68851 06:43:15 (advertising viagra and such.) 06:43:16 e-mail sent. 06:43:38 _3b, it is still not working 06:43:49 Goan: what is it you are trying to achieve? 06:43:58 pushing one list into another 06:44:14 Won't do it. Return list2. 06:44:51 <_3b> oh yeah, dolist is what returns the wrong thing... i knew there was something wrong with that :) 06:45:01 Goan: you know what the return value of dolist is? 06:45:32 and what about (append (nreverse list1) list2) 06:45:44 <_3b> Goan: also, keep in mind that you have different behavior depending on whether list2 is null 06:46:00 duh, dolist always return nil! 06:46:08 Goan: bing! :) 06:46:17 (and no, not always) 06:46:32 clhs dolist 06:46:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_dolist.htm 06:46:48 olist (var list-form [result-form]) declaration* {tag | statement}* 06:47:04 ^d 06:47:14 <_3b> Goan: if list2 is empty, you don't reverse the elements of list1, and you don't make a copy, so modifying the results modifies list1 06:47:52 <_3b> Goan: (which might be the intent, just pointing it out in case you hadn't thought about it) 06:48:00 Goan: and what _3b said .. what is it you really want to do and why? 06:48:41 I want to combine the results of one function output, with other inputs that I already have for a second function 06:48:53 and then send all of them to the second function 06:49:05 Goan: reversing list1 is part of the spec? 06:49:09 nopes 06:49:22 you know how push works? 06:49:36 puts the element in the front 06:49:43 he's looking for a setf expander? 06:49:43 and we don't need to setf it 06:50:05 Goan: macroexpand push.. it's still setf'd 06:50:08 he= she 06:50:26 oh, I didn't know that 06:50:32 and 'in-front' .. so backwards 06:50:45 I want it that way only. 06:51:07 Goan: what's wrong with APPEND? 06:51:49 *drewc* might be confused 06:51:57 but i blame the spec 06:52:05 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 06:52:21 drewc: yea, it works well 06:52:26 just checked 06:52:48 (append '(1 3) '(2 3)) => ( 1 3 2 3) 06:52:50 nice 06:53:00 Goan: is APPEND (or NCONC) what you really wanted? 06:53:07 no need for a dolist thing 06:53:10 yes 06:53:13 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:53:32 ok sweet .. my work here is done! 06:54:02 tks :-) 06:54:17 Goan: NP, that's what i do :) 06:54:34 *drewc* 's telepathic debugging skills have improved 06:54:49 i owe it all to Xach 06:57:43 -!- hugo_ [n=hugo@89.181.119.183] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:57:54 hugo_ [n=hugo@89-180-254-163.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 06:59:41 -!- S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:01:30 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has joined #lisp 07:01:47 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 07:04:52 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has joined #lisp 07:05:18 tic: what is your cl-net username? 07:05:52 tic: or do you not have one yet... that'd make sense 07:06:49 tic: and i'll take this time to say.. llgpl .. you sure? 07:07:25 -!- cmatei [n=cmatei@85.186.180.45] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:09:15 -!- hiteki [n=user@102.29.100-84.rev.gaoland.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:10:27 drewc, me sure? dunno. 07:10:30 drewc, what'd you suggest? 07:11:08 tic: anything but GPL-related. Modified BSD, MIT, or even WTF. 07:11:32 drewc, hm. how about https://svn.jansson.be/public/LICENSE ? 07:11:39 tic: the GPL and LGPL, and even the LLGPL are somewhat .. hostile to lisp users. 07:12:16 tic: that's a nice one... modified BSD AFAICT.. perfect 07:12:39 tic: i use the same text myself. 07:12:46 drewc, yeah, BSD-based, fourth clause added, specifically. 07:12:50 drewc, then I'll use that. : ) 07:12:58 well ... i change your name to mine ... but same thing :) 07:13:14 oh .. fourth clause .. 07:13:21 traditional BSD 07:13:29 RukuBites [n=user@c122-108-15-18.eburwd9.vic.optusnet.com.au] has joined #lisp 07:13:35 -!- RukuBites [n=user@c122-108-15-18.eburwd9.vic.optusnet.com.au] has left #lisp 07:14:07 drewc, m'kay. I have generally not really put much thought into licensing. Figured I just wanted some credit in case someone uses my stuff 07:14:24 that fourth clause seems a bit hostile to me... 07:14:32 tic: if i take your software, and develop, say, and application for the US government that is used to count prisoners in gitmo using LIMP.... 07:14:33 that may be just me, though 07:14:43 drewc, heh. 07:14:58 tic: do you really want to see your name on that? 07:15:01 jdz, in the case of an IDE, it's not really bad. 07:15:21 drewc, meh. "encouraged to" as opposed to "must"? 07:16:12 tic: wanting credit is understandable... but do you really care? 07:16:52 drewc, I'm an attention whore. ;) So replace "use" with "code based on"? Would that be better? 07:17:15 wanting credit is ok; focing people to credit you will only make them hostile (unless the piece of software is really really really good) 07:17:22 tic: negative attention is attention non-the-less? 07:17:48 *drewc* was a GPL nazi til he started lisping 07:17:55 drewc, heh. I just want to say that if you base your code on Limp, please give credit. So yeah #4 could be a bit hostile 07:18:18 tic: it's your code, and i don't want to presume to know what's best for it 07:18:39 but i would never use any code that came with that clause.... 07:18:46 aight. 07:18:50 imagine if reiserFS came with that clause? 07:19:01 tic: you should only care about credit from people who will credit your work without that clause. 07:19:46 jdz: -> picture me making that charades gesture where one touches ones nose 07:20:05 *drewc* touches his nose and points towards jdz 07:20:09 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 07:20:36 drewc, aight, you're right. skip #4. 07:20:47 hello 07:20:51 could you imagine redhat had to put hans riesers name on every CD they sold! 07:20:55 *drewc* lol's 07:21:20 right, Use is wrong. it's derivate work I mean. didn't think about what it really said. 07:21:30 but still, skip #4. 07:22:06 tic: do you have a cl-net account already? 07:22:11 *drewc* cannot find it 07:22:13 drewc, I have not. 07:22:22 drewc, should I request one somewhere? 07:22:23 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 07:22:40 my attitude towards giving my work away is that somebody somewhere will find it useful; and then the sense that I have given something back to the community which works I use. 07:22:41 tic: just send your full GPG key as well 07:23:23 jdz: 'whose works i use' .. but yes, my snetiments exactly 07:23:43 and feel free to correct my spelling :) 07:27:18 drewc: i made up my mind - make it 32 bits please 07:27:29 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-224-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:27:36 drewc: (that way, i can go back to cmucl once i've tested enough) 07:30:05 H4ns: you sure? you can run a 32 it chroot on the 64 bit box (and actually vice-versa in the english datacentre). 07:32:09 H4ns: would nana prefer the server to be in the US or the UK? 07:32:33 (hard to decide which country has the more draconian thing going right now) 07:34:21 Are there any URL based traffic statistics of cliki.net, common-list.net? 07:34:32 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 07:34:35 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:34:49 vy: no 07:37:15 Do they produce any logs semi-compatible with apache log file format? 07:38:00 vy: cl-net is all apache. cliki OTOH does not log anything really. 07:38:08 vy: why? 07:38:19 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:38:32 drewc: One can extract traffic statistics from logs. 07:38:55 vy: indeed.. astute observation! :) 07:39:16 vy: you care though.. for some reason? why? :) 07:39:47 vy: we had MRTG graphs for cl-net at one point .. but i don't thing we bothered to install them again. 07:40:05 tic: check your email. 07:40:38 (SLIME? LIMP? and we want people to use our flaccid and slippery software?) 07:40:57 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 07:41:27 drewc: I just wondered the popularity between available packages. Also, you know, graphs & comparisons interest people. 07:42:00 drewc: run awstats on all your old apache log files, it has a mode to process all the old ones and combine them into one stats report 07:42:42 zu22: i know, i run a webhosting company ;) 07:43:55 vy: you're probably right .. i should keep this data and post it somewhere.. so the kids on reddit can say 'oh look, 50k hits to common-lisp.net' 07:45:02 drewc, no e-mail for me! 07:45:25 tic: Emailing user @ mikael@lisp.se. 07:45:35 that's the right address? 07:45:59 drewc, yeah, should work. you could try mail at mikael.jansson.be directly, for which the former is an alias. 07:46:29 tic: too late .. it was sent and should be there.. check spam folders, and remember the mail is encrypted. 07:46:35 drewc, *nod* 07:46:58 drewc: ah :) 07:47:01 tic: if it's not there, the internet is broken .. not my fault! 07:47:57 rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 07:48:37 drewc, lots of spam in french, nothing from you though 07:48:53 *drewc* cannot possibly be responsible for the whole internet... only the lisp parts 07:49:07 tic: it should come from root@common-lisp.net 07:49:13 did you send anything about a good-sized pecker? 07:49:14 ( i think) 07:49:26 tic: you did say you were LIMP ... 07:49:38 *drum-tsch* 07:49:46 instantrimshot.com 07:49:52 It'll arrive later I geuss. 07:49:53 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:50:04 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 07:50:15 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-224-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:50:26 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BBA6D2.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:50:31 tic: lets hope so! 07:50:38 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CB16.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:50:43 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 07:51:09 tic: if you don't see it shortly, bug H4ns .. it's his shift now :) 07:51:21 drewc, I'm afraid of him. 07:51:32 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CB16.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:51:43 drewc: oh, uhm, i don't know anything about creating projects and users and all that. :P 07:51:56 tic: he's a scary guy! with all his irc names and stuff 07:51:56 tic: rightfully so! 07:54:03 how do I load a text file containing some characters in a form of a MxN dimensional grid and load it for my program, in the form of a sublist for every row ... also the characters have to be double quoted individually. So for e.g. 3 4 5 6 next line 4 5 6 7.. should be read into program as ((3 4 5 6)(4 5 6 7)) 07:54:27 drewc, I only have a ticket #107, unsigned/unencrypted. 07:54:33 sorry, (("3" "4" "5" "6")("4" "5" "6" "7")) 07:55:12 google mail, why do you hate me? 07:55:12 Goan: you do it by reading a text book about lisp and thus learning how to write programs in it 07:55:13 Goan: are you looking for pointers in lisp, or looking to learn how to program in general.... 07:55:16 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 07:55:28 pointers 07:55:34 drewc: call me prince charming 07:55:40 there's a dead-sexy book you should read, Goan. 07:55:45 minion: tell Goan about PCL 07:55:46 Goan: direct your attention towards PCL: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 07:55:48 Goan: dead .... what he said. 07:56:12 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-209.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 07:56:15 alright thanks. 07:57:03 Goan: i only ask because your question shows a general lack of knowledge about programming itself,,, and is not lisp-specific... 07:57:27 PCL is great for programmers, but there are better texts for non-programmers. 07:57:51 (i'm thinking touretzky[sp?]) 07:57:59 minion: gentle 07:57:59 gentle: "Common Lisp: A Gentle Introduction to Symbolic Computation" is a smoother introduction to lisp programming. http://www.cs.cmu.edu/~dst/LispBook/ 07:58:05 lisp in small pieces? 07:58:10 tic: right 07:58:30 Goan: with-open-file, read, and parse-int will likely be of interest. 07:58:45 aja: note he wants strings 07:58:54 -!- impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["leaving"] 07:59:07 Goan: s/parse-int/format 07:59:07 aja: and question why! :) 07:59:32 drewc: it's part of his course assignment maybe? 07:59:38 H4ns: do you need quickhoney VPS tonight? 07:59:58 drewc: "need" is not the right word. i would like to migrate this week, though. 08:00:18 H4ns: ok .. first thing in the AM i'll do it. 08:00:24 drewc: Yes. I do question why. Just wanted to give him some hopefully useful index search terms. 08:00:24 AM PST == PM you 08:00:27 drewc: no worries. 08:01:17 Goan: does you nick have anything to do with the 'Smee' joke? 08:01:56 http://www.anxietyculture.com/jokes.htm <---- WTF drewc is talking about 08:02:04 tks aja, i have found a useful article on read-line and parse-int 08:03:43 Goan: If your data file contains s-expressions, you can likely get by with read. 08:04:14 Goan: CAUTION! READ-LINE is READ which, with *read-eval*, is dangerous if you do not control the input. 08:04:39 prip_ [n=_prip@host12-122-dynamic.32-79-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 08:04:42 -!- prip [n=_prip@host193-177-dynamic.61-82-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:05:45 drewc: READ-LINE is READ? 08:05:51 drewc: please elaborate. 08:05:57 drewc: READ-LINE does *not* use READ 08:06:20 drewc, no e-mail yet. 08:06:22 *H4ns* knew that READ-LINE is CONS, which is not funny when one tries to process large data sets :) 08:06:35 oh wait .. READ-LINE 08:06:46 *drewc* uses the half in the bag excuse 08:07:06 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:07:27 i don't even know what i was thinking of FFS... 08:07:32 no more advice from me! 08:07:45 drewc: Possibly read-from-string ? 08:07:47 drewc: you thought read-from-string! 08:08:02 thanks guys .. you are too kind. 08:08:10 well anyway, are there any more gory details that we can discuss to scare goan more? 08:08:39 H4ns: there is the pathname system .. his is opening a file after all. 08:08:51 drewc: great! :D 08:09:05 lispm [n=joswig@g224123177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 08:09:29 lispm, I tried watching dsl-in-lisp.mov yesterday, but my laptop was too slow :/ 08:09:47 really? 08:09:56 nostoi [n=nostoi@137.Red-83-35-123.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 08:10:08 drewc: Interestingly, even with *read-eval* set to T, it doesn't seem to eval on my system: 08:10:20 CL-USER> (values (read-from-string "*read-eval*")) 08:10:22 *READ-EVAL* 08:10:28 tic: you have a slow laptop? 08:10:30 CL-USER> (eval (values (read-from-string "*read-eval*"))) 08:10:31 T 08:10:35 aja: #. 08:10:40 aja: try, say, #.(foo) 08:10:48 Ah. 08:10:51 tic: you could convert it to another video format and watch then 08:11:22 lispm: the resolution on that video is 'unique' as well, IIRC 08:11:24 lispm, yeah, 1,6 GHz Via C3. HP2133, subnotebook. Weird. Voice lags behind. 08:11:36 No, video lags. 08:11:40 drewc: Thanks. Hadn't though of that little thing. 08:11:51 drewc: the resolution is something like 1600x1024 08:12:02 oh, no wonder. 08:12:03 lispm: unique! :) 08:12:10 drewc: most video players let you scale it down 08:12:36 lispm: just low enough to make the text unreadable actually. 08:12:40 Hmmm. ANd then it throws on a #. Nice. Gonna want a safe-read macro, one thinks ... 08:12:58 aja: function.. safe-read function 08:13:12 drewc: just listen to it and watch the shape of the Lisp functions... 08:13:13 drewc: Yeah, I suppose you're right. 08:13:23 lispm: great video though! 08:13:37 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 08:13:38 drewc: thanks :-) 08:14:04 lispm: i remember the entire cicumstance.. it was fowler or something right? 08:14:07 drewc, are you *really* sure the e-mail was sent? 08:14:16 (you sure showed him!) 08:14:24 drewc: fowler, dsls and such 08:14:35 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 08:14:36 fowler is into DSLs. I made a Lisp version of his lights switch minilanguage. 08:14:41 tic: ya, 100% sure. gmail has been know to have issues with the encrypted messages. 08:15:13 drewc, ... weird, I do all my communication w/ a friend, encrypted, and there are no problems there. 08:15:17 drewc: did you check the exim log file? 08:15:21 tic: odd indeed. 08:15:23 I bet he never has written a line of Lisp, but he often mentions Lisp 08:15:26 H4ns: will look now. 08:15:38 lispm, yeah, no actual Lisp in that article of his? 08:15:38 atleast as an example for an 'internal dsl' 08:15:46 drewc: i can take over if chasing down mail is what is required. 08:16:07 no,there was a paragraph about how Lisp is used 08:16:23 but the code was C#, Java, XML what have you 08:16:32 lispm, macro-asm? ;) 08:16:41 oh shizer ... "451-208.72.159.207 is not yet authorized to deliver mail from\n451- to . Please try\n451 later." 08:16:56 macro-asm would at least be funny 08:18:33 the next video will have iPhone resolution ;-) 08:18:55 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 08:18:57 H4ns: i'm pretty close to sleeping and logs are not making sense to me anymore .. so if you don't mind.. :) 08:19:03 sure 08:19:30 sysadmining at 1am is not my strong point! 08:19:49 drewc: whos is? 08:19:52 ( i could probably write some mean lisp though!) 08:20:17 sysadmining at 1am is verboten! 08:21:14 lispm: try telling that to the people who need to use the syss i admin! :) 08:21:54 having clients all over the world is certainly a mixed blessing... 08:22:14 -!- Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:22:52 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-87-37.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 08:24:45 mega1` [n=mega@pool-0594f.externet.hu] has joined #lisp 08:24:56 actually i lied .. my lisp is suffering too. Must be bedtime. 08:26:04 *drewc* just spent a while trying to figure out why (cond a nil) didn't make a list of length=1. 08:26:46 -!- jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:27:49 drewc, so does gmail require explicit whitelisting? 08:28:15 tic: can you please reply to my pm so that i can help you? 08:28:43 Oh, sorry! 08:30:06 z` [n=tltstc@vpn-scm.mscsoftware.com] has joined #lisp 08:32:53 *drewc* is going to watch the simpsons and then sleep for 10 hours 08:33:01 gnight #lisp 08:34:53 -!- tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-48-200.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:34:53 night 08:35:25 -!- eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:24 -!- alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:43:06 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 08:52:57 -!- Soulman [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:53:00 -!- zu22 [n=ubuntu@unaffiliated/zu22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:56:17 is the dirname command available on sbcl's target platforms? 08:56:37 -!- pdewacht [n=pdewacht@igwe19.vub.ac.be] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:56:50 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:01:35 ~clhs substring 09:03:32 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-184-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 09:03:38 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 09:07:03 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:07:18 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@137.Red-83-35-123.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 09:07:26 manuel_ [n=manuel@e178123187.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 09:08:46 -!- antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:09:02 hi 09:09:10 manuel_: hi, in berlin? 09:09:13 yap 09:09:16 when do you have time ? :] 09:09:25 manuel_: ha! :) 09:09:40 you're a busy man 09:10:02 manuel_: today or tomorrow in the evening? 09:10:12 i have something planned this evening 09:10:15 but nothing else yet 09:10:32 manuel_: or lunchtime 09:10:41 tomorrow lunchtime sounds cool 09:11:05 manuel_: fine. see you then. we'll talk about lisp, so this is totally on topic! 09:12:12 silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has joined #lisp 09:14:43 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:20:21 Athas [n=athas@shop3.distlab.diku.dk] has joined #lisp 09:21:57 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 09:22:06 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:23:25 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@e178123187.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 09:24:00 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-038-063.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:24:47 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-140-098.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:37:23 -!- stassats` [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:38:07 ths_ [n=ths@p549AF207.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:38:25 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:39:01 -!- ths [n=ths@X75d0.x.pppool.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 09:39:04 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 09:41:37 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #lisp 09:41:44 -!- kalvatn [i=kalvatn@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has left #lisp 09:43:08 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 09:54:42 beach` [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-134-56.w90-60.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:54:48 kreuter: ping 09:55:03 LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has joined #lisp 09:55:52 it's ridiculously early in america 09:56:24 from sldb, when I type 'v', I get "frame-source-location" not implemented. Is this the correct way to jump to the source ? What I really want, is to jump at the correct line in the window already containing the source. 09:56:42 "frame-source-location not implemented" 09:57:13 Xach: it didn't hurt to try 09:59:24 asdf-binary-locations is totally hosed under scl because of pathname handling 10:00:07 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-96-173.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 10:00:12 -!- beach` is now known as beach 10:05:45 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 10:08:04 kuwabara: what implementation? 10:10:08 -!- abeaumont [n=abeaumon@10.pool85-49-183.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 10:10:08 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 10:10:38 antifuchs [n=asf@baker.boinkor.net] has joined #lisp 10:11:09 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 10:11:13 umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has joined #lisp 10:17:46 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-190-121.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 10:18:01 athos [n=philipp@p54B8744A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:30 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 10:20:45 -!- mikezor_ is now known as mikezor 10:25:33 -!- LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:26:55 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 10:28:15 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@10.pool85-49-183.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 10:28:45 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-184-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 10:29:57 -!- xbxbxb [n=xb@p54ABD5FE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 10:30:28 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-101-211.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 10:31:24 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.7] has joined #lisp 10:33:32 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@121.32.45.135] has quit [] 10:33:34 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-167-134.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 10:34:31 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2838.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:36:42 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-bec3d1a9e5491814] has joined #lisp 10:39:18 alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 10:43:15 g000001_ [n=chibamas@pu78.opt2.point.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:51:41 kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has joined #lisp 10:52:13 -!- Archangel_13 [n=kevin@216-197-159-94.estv.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 10:52:20 hello lispers 10:53:39 hi. 10:58:01 -!- authentic [n=authenti@unaffiliated/authentic] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:58:36 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 10:59:24 benny [n=benny@i577A2838.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 11:02:47 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 11:03:00 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 11:03:28 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by 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trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 12:51:11 Odin-MAC [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:52:57 hello. can i export special variables from a package at runtime? 12:53:14 export deals only with symbols 12:53:18 and you can export symbols at runtime 12:53:31 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 12:54:24 i mean symbols which i forgot to put into (defpackage ... (:export ...)) - how? 12:54:59 manuel__ [n=manuel@p4FC121FD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 12:55:12 Goan [n=Goan@dilip.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 12:55:19 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 12:55:42 clhs export 12:55:42 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_export.htm 12:55:57 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 111 (Connection refused)] 12:56:05 you can also re-evaluate your changed defpackage form. 12:57:38 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 12:58:31 i read about export-examples, but somehow i do not get it: (export (find-symbol "TEMP-SYM" 'temp) 'temp) => T 12:59:04 (find-symbol "my-symb" 'my-package) -> nil, nil 12:59:09 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-180-44.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 12:59:45 you are aware that symbols are case sensitive? 13:00:00 in any event, i'd just update the defpackage form and re-evaluate it. 13:00:57 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:01:46 H4ns: i was not caring about case-sensitivity, you are right. 13:02:02 -!- aquateen_ [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:03:08 manuel__: are you still in Berlin? 13:03:19 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 13:03:29 hey 13:03:40 damn i'm too late 13:04:40 lichtblau: yep 13:05:57 *lichtblau* reads logs 13:06:14 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@p4FC12263.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:06:30 ... and I see you're meeting with H4ns. Still got time for me, too? 13:07:27 not that I have too much time either, but I'm back in Berlin, so something lunch-ish might be an option 13:07:37 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:07:48 we could just combine that 13:07:53 (if time is tight) 13:08:37 -!- sellout [n=greg@12.191.171.19] has quit [] 13:09:05 ah. where are you two meeting? 13:09:11 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9525.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 13:09:18 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9525.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:09:26 *H4ns* wants focus follows eyes 13:09:37 i guess i missed something important. please fill me in 13:09:39 H4ns: ditto. 13:10:11 "where are you two meeting?" is what you might have missed 13:10:15 ditto. 13:10:30 lichtblau: something like near u-bahn senefelder platz 13:10:49 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:11:21 H4ns, http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/opengazer/ 13:11:23 also, focus-follows-eyes can't be that hard for an soldering iron buff like you 13:12:48 lichtblau: you mean, i could, uhm, solder, uhm, a mouse to my eyes? (?) 13:13:40 a mouse ball and an eye ball are of similar shapes 13:14:05 omg 13:15:09 more like, put a weird hat on with fancy home-made electronics in it 13:15:27 opengazer! 13:15:38 at jugend forscht 199x some guys had a very cool demonstration, but /me doesn't know how they did it 13:15:49 tic: make it a product, i'll propably buy it. 13:16:02 H4ns, check out Tobi, Swedish company doing just that. 13:16:06 Does anyone know of a web host > 30GB that allows one to just store files? 13:16:19 Or just some cheap online file storing solution? 13:16:26 nntp:misc.misc 13:17:20 we are the lisp dudes, we know everything! 13:17:54 tic: it is tobii - checking it out, thanks. 13:18:04 That's what I thought! "Who masters lambda calculus, masters the world" (Aristotheles) 13:18:43 H4ns, it's probably too expensive though. :/ I'd like to upgrade opengazer so it works with later versions of V4L, just don't have the energy. 13:18:53 -!- mimies is now known as spiderbyte 13:19:03 tic: i'm keeping it on my "want" list 13:19:08 Common Lisp is melange, certainly 13:19:47 Trystam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-154-66.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 13:20:03 *_3b* suspects focus-follow-eye would have the same problem of click-to-focus, in that i often want to type somewhere other than where i want to look :) 13:20:34 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 13:21:24 you could probably fix that with heuristics or special commands. like, close one eye to disable temporarily. =) 13:21:29 manuel_ [n=manuel@p4FC120BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 13:21:43 Nah, you just institute a delay after typing. 13:22:06 x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@tmo-099-65.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 13:22:07 <_3b> don't think delay would work in general 13:22:17 me neither. 13:22:23 i often switch between apps w/ input. 13:23:42 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-154-66.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:23:55 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-255-181.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 13:24:17 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@p4FC120BF.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:28:06 hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 13:28:31 -!- manuel__ [n=manuel@p4FC121FD.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:28:34 -!- kuwabara1 [i=513969a4@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-556094d800dbd6d7] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 13:28:40 Xach, H4ns thanks for you help, it works perfectly. sorry for not reading the spec carefully enough - i was under heavy pressure (project-meeting), but now i have very nice pictures/animations ;) 13:29:01 esden___ [i=esdentem@atradig141.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has joined #lisp 13:29:06 trebor_win: you're welcome 13:29:10 -!- esden___ [i=esdentem@atradig141.informatik.tu-muenchen.de] has quit [Client Quit] 13:29:15 i want to see some pictures and animations 13:29:17 -!- spiderbyte is now known as mimies 13:29:52 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:30:57 i will upload them to my ftp-server after the meeting is over (2 hours from now). 13:31:15 now i will do some presentation-generation. 13:31:23 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has quit ["“Life is hard. After all, it kills you.” — Katharine Hepburn"] 13:31:48 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:34:37 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has quit ["bbl"] 13:36:30 meingbg: dl.free.fr allows you as many files as you want (max 10Gb per file); they are kept until not used during 30 consecutive days. 13:37:08 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-103-1.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:39:15 timor [n=icke@w0964.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 13:39:57 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 13:40:02 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.155.52] has joined #lisp 13:40:07 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 13:42:30 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 13:43:05 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 13:44:40 -!- Trystam is now known as Tristam 13:45:40 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 13:51:39 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has joined #lisp 13:52:16 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:58:10 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 14:00:56 S11001001 [n=sirian@pdpc/supporter/active/S11001001] has joined #lisp 14:01:27 blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 14:01:43 -!- Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:03:46 is there a mailing list for portable-clx? 14:04:09 jeng [n=user@75.110.231.66] has joined #lisp 14:04:54 nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:05:02 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c3e887ac4edcdbe1] has joined #lisp 14:06:15 Portable-clx@lists.metacircles.com 14:07:13 thanks 14:07:22 no problem 14:07:23 Goan [n=Goan@129.21.43.65] has joined #lisp 14:07:49 "This domain may be for sale" ? 14:08:18 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:08:26 hmm 14:09:15 nullwork_ [n=nullwork@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:12:52 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 14:16:09 -!- athos_ [n=philipp@p54B85DF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:21:57 pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has joined #lisp 14:22:43 lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has joined #lisp 14:23:12 antgreen [n=green@localhost.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:24:17 -!- g000001_ [n=chibamas@pu78.opt2.point.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:24:44 -!- pmatos [n=pmatos@pocm06r.ecs.soton.ac.uk] has quit [Client Quit] 14:26:53 attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has joined #lisp 14:34:06 KingNato_ [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has joined #lisp 14:35:23 -!- antgreen [n=green@localhost.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:35:46 antgreen [n=green@localhost.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:12 -!- qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:38:35 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:40:51 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A2838.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:42:24 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:44:05 rread [n=rread@c-76-21-116-77.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:28 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:46:37 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-147-7.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 14:48:09 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:48:24 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 14:51:10 -!- x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@tmo-099-65.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:51:28 -!- KingNato [n=KingNato@fw.polopoly.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 14:52:27 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@89.202.147.22] has quit ["Valete!"] 14:52:52 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 14:54:09 Xach: becoming the unofficial news source, I see 14:54:23 why's everything so quiet, anyway? is it a holiday somewhere? 14:54:28 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:55:00 it's lisp50 day! 14:55:02 the netherlands has holidays (partially) but I wouldn't expect that to matter for #lisp 14:55:05 ah 14:55:07 ah. 14:55:38 Xach: have you actually tried ccl for win32? Is it vaguely usable? 14:55:58 rsynnott: I have not, but there's a lengthy thread about it. gbyers reports slime works. 14:56:13 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:56:14 *Xach* doesn't have a strong interest in lisp on windows in general 14:56:32 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:57:51 -!- ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has quit ["Bye Bye!"] 14:58:17 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 14:58:23 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 14:58:42 nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 15:00:04 be interesting to see where that goes 15:00:20 "could compile itself successfully 3 times out of 4 and crashed the 4th time" makes it about as good as SBCL/win32 already 15:00:29 I'll just be glad when the 32bit Darwin one is stable; distributable macos apps! 15:00:58 (well, you can make distributable GUI macos apps now, but only for PPC and AMD64, leaving a weird hole in the middle for the early intel laptops) 15:01:34 I made a little testing app that did something silly; my flatmate was most annoyed it wouldn't run on his 1st gen macbook :) ) 15:02:21 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has joined #lisp 15:02:40 in america we call people like that "chumps" 15:03:52 bobrown` [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:11 also, it was 20mb compressed; 64bitness leads to particularly vast redistributables 15:04:17 lichtblau: heh, but tbh I've never seen SBCL/win32 crash when compiling itself 15:04:40 (it would theoretically be possible to make a macos package with PPC, IA32 and AMD64 versions of random CCL app, but it would be HUGE) 15:04:44 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:04:50 rsynnott: don't forget ppc64! 15:05:47 I doubt anyone bothereed porting ccl to that 15:06:10 oh! they did! 15:06:16 Yes! 15:06:25 goodness 15:06:49 *rsynnott* has never even SEEN a g5; they were'nt that common 15:07:16 *rsynnott* loves making silly little gui apps with ccl; such fun! 15:07:17 Are you sure? iMac G5s look just like early Intel iMacs 15:07:39 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:07:40 allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 15:07:54 oh, forgot there was an imac version 15:07:54 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:08:01 I was thinking of the big super-expensive towers 15:08:01 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:03 G5's were very common where I've worked. 15:08:28 ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@student166-32.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 15:09:23 I have one of those towers, and it's a big lump of metal most of the time now because I'm usually unwilling to turn on something that produces so much heat and noise when my MBP is faster. 15:09:35 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:09:41 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:47 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 15:10:13 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:11:24 soverton [n=user@75.145.221.229] has joined #lisp 15:12:54 -!- bobrown [n=user@dsl081-198-234.nyc2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:15:28 *Xach* chuckles at http://www.flickr.com/photos/xach/2958721978/ 15:15:45 s_p [n=s_p___@77.241.163.216] has joined #lisp 15:15:48 Xach: was that yours? 15:15:55 or did someone else make it? 15:16:02 (I've got one on office wall :P ) 15:16:02 i made it. 15:17:03 *Xach* has one too 15:17:06 printed, that is 15:18:28 urgh, elephant gives one the lovely choice of being stuck on a single machine, or high latency :( 15:19:04 a magical RPC thing that handles methods would be lovely about now :D 15:19:19 (...) 15:19:21 :D 15:21:44 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 15:24:50 tomsw [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has joined #lisp 15:24:52 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 15:26:14 eek, someone is complaining on the CCL list that it is slow to iterate through a hash table with 100,000,000 entries :) 15:26:43 find returns the first item in a sequence for which a test is non-nil: is there a similar function that returns the non-nil result of the test, instead of the item? 15:27:16 you could use loop with a terminating condition 15:28:37 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 15:28:38 eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:28:49 clhs some 15:28:50 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_everyc.htm 15:29:10 ikki [n=ikki@201.155.75.146] has joined #lisp 15:29:21 lichtblau: ta, that's just what I was after 15:29:34 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has quit [] 15:29:36 rsynnott: isn't that weeks ago? 15:29:53 oh, was totatally unaware of that function; handy 15:30:04 ehu: yep; was just looking over it (I'm not subscribed) 15:30:52 right. the solution was to resolved, I think: the locks (which were implemented) were not required anymore. They seem to have lockless hash tables now. 15:31:58 Goan pasted "return problem" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68871 15:32:46 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:32:47 I want to return neighbors list, at the end of the function new-person 15:32:59 ieh 15:33:16 Goan: can you please read a tutorial on lisp programming? 15:33:43 H4ns, I am reading it side by side 15:34:00 Goan: yes. what i mean is: can you please finish reading it? 15:34:07 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 15:34:08 Goan: you probably want to make uour list before the conditionals 15:34:17 though the function as a whole does not look useful 15:35:10 cracki [n=cracki@44-170.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:35:15 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F5C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:40 has anyone here used the pdf parser in cl-pdf successfully? 15:35:55 got that H4ns, (return-from new-person neighbor) 15:36:03 H4ns: i have 15:36:32 Xach: does it "just work" or did you have to tweak it? it seems to behave strangely, but i may be doing something wrong. 15:36:52 sjbach [n=sbach@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:36:56 Xach: like The variable PDF::*NAME-COUNTER* is unbound. 15:36:57 H4ns: hmm, well, it worked on the PDFs I had. most of the functionality is unexported and low-level, so i wound up writing a lot of utilities for it. 15:37:04 -!- cracki [n=cracki@44-170.eduroam.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 15:37:19 H4ns: it was a few years ago, i'm afraid i don't remember the details, but i was able to complete a useful project with it 15:37:21 Xach: hm, ok. i'll play with it some more, thanks. 15:37:35 -!- Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:38:31 *H4ns* hopes that goan completes his course assignment tonight and never look at lisp again in his career 15:38:31 a few months ago an excellent quick reference pdf for LOOP was posted to programming.reddit.com and I can no longer find it 15:38:46 does anyone know what I'm talking about, and if so, where I might locate it now? 15:38:51 H4ns: that's probably a little unfair 15:38:55 sjbach: hmm, i don't know about just LOOP, but clqr.berlios.de is a full lisp quick reference 15:39:10 rsynnott: no. 15:39:21 Xach: it might have bee more than just LOOP -- I just remember that part being surprisingly clear 15:39:24 *been 15:39:30 "just use iterate" 15:40:45 Xach, yep this is what I was looking for 15:40:53 thank you much 15:40:56 great, no problem 15:42:15 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 15:42:50 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224123177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit ["Leaving..."] 15:43:42 H4ns: is drakma under unofficial official svn control at the moment? if so, where does it live? 15:43:47 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:44:39 Xach: i'm working off http://bknr.net/svn/trunk/thirdparty/drakma/, but i think that the release is good, too. 15:44:57 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2C477.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:44:57 -!- prip_ is now known as prip 15:45:00 jdz [n=jdz@87.110.168.120] has joined #lisp 15:45:00 Xach: the local drakma version propably requires the dependencies from my repository, too. 15:45:26 travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has joined #lisp 15:45:57 ok, thanks. the svn does not differ for my purposes from the release. 15:46:24 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:15 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E47926.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:47:18 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:47:24 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44EB0.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:47:41 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@adsl-68-121-172-169.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:55:30 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 15:59:31 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 16:00:40 HaspEmulator 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#lisp 16:36:07 vasa [n=vasa@mm-219-188-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 16:36:25 -!- allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Success] 16:40:48 qebab [n=finnrobi@eros.orakel.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 16:41:56 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF207.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:41:57 -!- ths__ is now known as ths 16:42:12 -!- Goan [n=Goan@unaffiliated/goan] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:43:40 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-184-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 16:44:18 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 16:44:41 Good evening. 16:44:49 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [No route to host] 16:45:06 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-65-65.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 16:47:36 -!- srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 16:49:16 Greetings, comrade. 16:49:44 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:51:49 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E43C20.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:51:54 algowuz: New here I take it? 16:53:08 alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has joined #lisp 16:53:24 -!- ChanServ has set mode +o Xach 16:53:25 -!- Xach has set mode -b *!*@gateway/tor/* 16:53:37 -!- timor [n=icke@w0964.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:53:45 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9525.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:53:47 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 16:53:50 locklace [i=locklace@gateway/tor/x-7dd5935786cbb41d] has joined #lisp 16:54:21 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB9525.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 16:57:28 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:39 -!- antgreen [n=green@localhost.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 16:58:59 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c3e887ac4edcdbe1] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 16:59:06 antgreen [n=green@74.210.106.222] has joined #lisp 16:59:09 nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:00:21 beach: you know it. My teacher recommended LISP after some looking thru some recursive as in "all-in-one" C code i wrote 17:00:38 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 17:00:50 vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:01:07 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 17:01:12 Wise teacher! 17:01:44 algowuz: Though we have written the name of the language "Lisp" rather than "LISP" for the past couple of decades. 17:02:17 Now i've been sitting here for days just planning.. the program. 17:02:46 why not call it LISP? 17:03:03 vixey: ? 17:03:43 i tend to call it LISP when discussing historical stuff 17:05:28 is there a later version of The Evolution of Lisp than the draft floating around on the 'net? 17:05:29 is there a de facto standard library for (a) working with posix filesystems and (b) posix in general? for (a) i found Osicat... 17:06:00 sb-posix for sbcl 17:06:21 locklace: cl-fad is not quite that, but it's pretty useful anyway. 17:06:33 tic: yeah, was hoping for something that wasn't implementation-specific 17:06:52 sb-posix is more "whatever someone felt like writing" than an attempt at thorough coverage. 17:06:58 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44EB0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:07:10 maybe http://www.cliki.net/compatibility%20layers can be of help? 17:07:15 (thorough coverage would be a lot of work and require a lot of judgement calls) 17:07:24 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:07:28 locklace, have you looked at CL-FAD? It's based on the code in PCL. 17:07:28 Goan [n=Goan@dilip.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:07:51 Drake1 [n=Gloria@216-67-63-236-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 17:07:51 locklace: you may find iolib useful. there's also #iolib 17:08:43 -!- nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:09:06 *algowuz* initiates lurker mode 17:10:06 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:12:49 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 17:13:59 mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-064-069.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:14:04 Xach: thanks, i think Osicat is a little more in the right direction as it can deal with permissions, ownership and such 17:14:04 tic: thanks, that looks like a good summary of the state of the world 17:14:13 nine` [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-48-200.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:14:20 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 17:14:31 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 17:15:13 -!- z` [n=tltstc@vpn-scm.mscsoftware.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:15:20 tic: just looked at it when Xach suggested it :) 17:15:50 hello 17:15:54 if someone asked you "what are the advantages of recursion?" what would you answer ? 17:16:10 hugo_: "it fits some problems quite naturally" 17:16:11 attila_lendvai: the thing that i found puzzling about iolib was that there is no documentation on its homepage 17:16:30 hugo_: it tends to fail spectacularly rather than subtly 17:16:38 dlowe, :) 17:16:55 dlowe: pop goes the heap :< 17:17:22 :D 17:17:27 hugo_: I find recursion more expressive for certain tasks, and I tend to avoid loops, in general. 17:17:37 hmm, i see 17:17:46 do most CL compilers perform tail call optimisation? 17:17:47 -!- nine` [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-48-200.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [Client Quit] 17:17:49 hugo: it lets you see not only where you came from (function arguments), but where you are going next 17:17:52 locklace: at certain settings. 17:18:02 as readability matters, do you think recursive calling makes code more readable ? 17:18:04 tltstc [n=tltstc@cpe-76-90-48-200.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 17:18:13 hugo_: depends on the task 17:18:15 hugo_: when it fits the problem. 17:18:23 lispm [n=joswig@g224123177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:18:40 Xach: as in (declare (optimize ...)) ? 17:18:45 hugo_: for example, try crawling a tree with loops. 17:18:55 locklace: there's no portable way to ask for tail-call elimination. 17:18:56 yes, i know its pain :) 17:19:13 locklace: but yes, with something like that. 17:19:17 thank you for your opinions 17:20:07 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-37-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:20:20 recursion is a bit nicer to work with when TCO allows you to avoid blowing the stack 17:21:31 sometimes you don't have to worry about operational behavior of programs 17:22:25 hmm, im more interested in readability 17:22:26 This is really a "design pattern" question. Iteration-by-recursion is a pattern, and programmers in many languages are using it all the time. Common Lisp programmers typically don't. 17:22:27 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 17:23:08 are many folks using iterate instead of loop? 17:23:30 locklace: yes! 17:23:44 locklace: okay, perhaps not many. But I switched recently. :-) 17:24:14 lichtblau: heh. :) i haven't studied it in detail, but it seems like a nice thing, was curious whether there is a 'movement' toward it 17:24:56 hmm 17:26:12 don't know. I think it helps that it's available for installation as an working, up-to-date library from cl.net (thanks to antifuchs, I think). 17:26:21 And it should also help iterate's acceptance that all those fancy new CL libraries come with a couple of dependencies anyway, so that (n+1)th dependency doesn't make much of a difference. 17:26:32 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 17:27:47 yes, there are a lot of nice asdf-installable libs now, i wonder if anyone has thought of trying to put a core subset together into an "extended standard library" 17:28:01 silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has joined #lisp 17:28:13 it's called alexandria 17:28:15 something equivalent to Boost for C++ would be really neat and helpful i think 17:28:24 adeht: no, that's not it (: 17:28:51 antifuchs: oh? 17:29:15 lichtblau: how well would sb-heapdump work if it was only meant to work as a fancy diff against a base image? 17:29:17 (and you're welcome re. iterate; I just did a bit of initial work; the people who really are to thank are joerg hoehle and all the awesome folks who are keeping it alive after I abandoned my maintainer's post) (: 17:29:54 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-224-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 17:30:09 adeht: alexandria doesn't collect stuff from other libraries, and is more about conservative gathering of useful functionality (: 17:30:43 pkhuong: ILTWYS"only" 17:30:47 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-184-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 17:30:47 lichtblau (: 17:31:04 antifuchs: which reminds me: I should forward you a conservative and simple string-case. 17:31:25 pkhuong: can you elaborate on that idea, so that I won't try to answer the wrong question? 17:32:43 antifuchs: of course it does collect stuff from other libraries.. that is part of what makes its stuff conservative: with-gensyms existed in many libraries before alexandria 17:32:57 *lichtblau* is using string-case 17:34:02 The &KEY DEFAULT thing in string-case felt surprising compared to CL:CASE. (string-case "foo" ("bar" x) (t y)) is what I expected. Plus a STRING-ECASE perhaps. 17:34:06 bhall [n=bhall@unaffiliated/bhall] has joined #lisp 17:34:21 i was looking for a nice simple-but-powerful parser combinator like Spirit for C++, anything similar for CL out there? 17:34:44 lichtblau: I'm thinking of the i-wish-sbcl-had-a-treeshaker crowd. It seems to me we could use some hack similar to sb-heapdump to do a tracing copy from a given root object and stop when we hit something that ``should'' be in the base image? 17:35:39 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:35:59 (for the interested, Spirit is described here: http://svn.boost.org/svn/boost/trunk/libs/spirit/doc/html/index.html) 17:36:57 pkhuong: how do you keep track of object identity in that scheme, if copying gc is being used? ("did a reference to another object actually chance, on did the object just move?") 17:36:57 -!- tomsw [n=user@mail2.siscog.pt] has left #lisp 17:37:39 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 17:38:25 lichtblau: does it matter if we don't support loading more than one copy in a base image? 17:38:42 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 17:40:26 Goan pasted "lambda expression" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68877 17:40:50 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:40:55 This function is giving this error ---- "EVAL: variable CROSS has no value" 17:41:06 but I have already defined cross in let* 17:41:16 ack! building SBCL head gives me the following very early in make-target-2: internal error #26 SC: 14, Offset: 4 $1= 0x1124149f: other pointer fatal error encountered in SBCL pid 11650(tid 2689322912): 17:41:34 Goan: yes. but the term using cross is outside of the let form 17:41:45 Goan: did you finish reading the textbook on lisp already? 17:41:48 Goan: your parens are mssed up 17:42:02 dan_b [n=dan@82-68-20-86.dsl.in-addr.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:42:06 slyrus_: is that on ppc, or do you want to s/list/lisa/ again? (: 17:42:07 -!- twfxfnxfnf [n=twfxfnf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:42:10 hmm, we'd basically be diffing a.core and b.core, right? if objects can have moved randomly, I have no idea how to do that. 17:42:27 pkhuong: x86 17:42:36 slyrus pasted "make-target-2 build failure" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68879 17:42:46 Perhaps with non-copying GC you could just take two core files and distribute a bsdiff patch, without any special knowledge on heap layout at all. 17:43:13 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:38 (I'm assuming that you're aware of the way steeldump tries to collect newly loaded packages from a core file. It's pretty ad hoc and special-cased.) 17:43:48 -!- lnxz [n=joachim@bjo1-1x-dhcp208.studby.uio.no] has quit ["leaving"] 17:43:49 *dan_b* thinks he's found a race in fd-streams closing files, does anyone have a moment to tell me I'm talking rubbish? 17:43:58 lichtblau: right, I was thinking we could sidestep the problem somewhat by doing it from inside the image. 17:44:07 H4ns, do you always finish the entire book and then start programming/ 17:44:17 Goan: yes 17:44:45 Goan: I'd read a book before annoying an entire channel. 17:44:50 dan_b: I have a minute. 17:45:03 look at release-fd-stream-resources and consider what happens if unix-close isa called then another thread reuses the fd and triggers a gc that collects the fd-stream object, before the original thread has a chance to remove the finaliser 17:45:39 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fbe860f528e05147] has joined #lisp 17:45:42 without interrupts doesn't disable gc does it? 17:45:43 lichtblau: take a user-provided root (typically, a function), trace and serialise everything it transitively points to, stopping at data that ``should'' be in the base image. 17:46:17 yes, the "should" part is what makes steeldump so extremely fragile 17:46:36 dan_b: I don't think it does. 17:46:58 lispm_ [n=joswig@g224121032.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 17:47:01 (disable gc) 17:47:43 locklace: i'm from that part of the crowd who does not believe in documentation. unfortunately iolib does not have an extended testsuite either, but it didn't stop me from using it... 17:48:06 would it be as bad if we can assume two dumps will never be loaded in the same image? That takes care of object identity problems. 17:48:32 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:48:36 dan_b: I think you're right. 17:50:28 documentation is highly overrated 17:50:29 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-12b9a3c0d48ff6f8] has joined #lisp 17:50:36 -!- lispm [n=joswig@g224123177.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:50:53 attila_lendvai: ok. i believe very strongly in documentation ;) 17:50:55 Yes, I think that makes various ideas easier to implement. 17:50:59 ths__ [n=ths@X75d0.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 17:51:10 But note that "only one diff file is ever loaded into an image" actually needs to be the stronger condition "the base image isn't modified at all before loading that diff file". 17:51:17 Just calling READ once before loading the diff file could change package objects in a way that the diff won't apply cleanly. 17:51:24 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AF1CE.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:51:26 -!- ths__ is now known as ths 17:51:51 lichtblau: sure. 17:52:58 locklace: imho, if you know the problem domain and the code is reasonably written, than the documentation is just an out-of-sync time-waster... at least that's what i think after 15+ years of programming... and that's why i prefer opensource.... 17:53:11 ... and at that point it would seem to me that the bsdiff idea is as good as any "internal" mechanism could be. 17:53:41 Just promote the entire base image into an old generation before loading the new objects to take care of the GC problem. 17:54:05 true. I should try that out first. 17:54:07 an extensive and easy to run testsuite is worth much more for me than any documentation (except for very complex problem domains) 17:54:15 documentation for whom? I could make a very strong case for documentation that tells the proespective user what the code does and what purposes the authors had in mind when they wrote it 17:54:26 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 17:54:59 "what the code does" in quite general terms, that is 17:55:24 dan_b: for iolib that's a dozen of words. which is most probably available on the homepage... 17:55:28 oh dear, it's attila ./. documentation again :-p 17:55:32 nobody should have to read the code for xmms to find out it's not the same as mpg123 17:55:52 "nobody should have to read the code for xmms" ok I could have finished that sentence there 17:57:09 lichtblau: yeah, because it's disappointing to see someone ignoring a brilliant lib because "there's no documentation". but yeah, why should i care... :) 17:57:29 attila_lendvai: interesting view. ;) mine is that having to wade through pages of source code, however well written, just to get basic information about what a system is and does and how to use it is mind-bendingly suboptimal in all but the most trivial of cases 17:57:46 tsuru [n=user@da001d0478.smr-ga.osd.concentric.net] has joined #lisp 17:58:05 slyrus_: now i get it too 17:58:21 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:59:05 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 17:59:10 -!- tsuru [n=user@da001d0478.smr-ga.osd.concentric.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:00:06 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:00:55 locklace: mine is that having to wade through pages of documentation, however well written, just to get basic information about what a system is and does and how to use it is mind-bendingly suboptimal in all but the most trivial of cases... :) this is subjective, but there was a time when i was reading docs, and i'm not reading them anymore. it's not just my laziness and the lack of docs for my libs. after some time i found mysel 18:00:55 f not even looking for docs when trying out a new lib. 18:01:21 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 18:01:35 -!- jeng [n=user@75.110.231.66] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:01:51 Xach: the animation was not very good (screen-shots) so i did live-performance ;). after all it impressing to my boss (i fear not for you ;) and it was a successful milestone #2 in this lisp-project .) 18:01:54 attila: with well-written documentation you don't have to wade through so many pages in order to get basic information about what a system is and does and how to use it 18:02:20 i will upload it tomorrow (promise). 18:02:33 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [SendQ exceeded] 18:03:20 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 18:03:49 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@ip-126-26.sn1.eutelia.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 18:03:58 attila: of course, I agree that bad documentation can be worse than no documentation at all 18:04:34 and that good documentation may be hard to write 18:04:35 i'd say abstracting information intelligently and presenting it concisely for human consumption is of fundamental importance 18:04:53 -!- cipher [n=cipher@torque.acm.cs.rpi.edu] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 18:05:03 adeht: i guess it would be boring to also rephrase you sentence with s/doc/code/... but that's what i would say. but anyways, that's just an opinion, there's no need for an agreement here... 18:05:16 Writing documentation helps you polishing up the interface; it's a very time-consuming task, though. 18:06:07 and again, we are talking about sockets and posix! you can get a ton of material on them... 18:06:20 lichtblau: i believe that's a victory: 42K for hello world 18:06:21 attila: code contains an abundance of details that are irrelevant to the information we're talking about 18:06:29 oh. did I mention interfaces are highly overrated too? just look into any moderate- to large-size corporate computing system (in-house, preferably) 18:06:55 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:07:01 tcr: writing an extensive testsuite helps more with that, imho. and real code using the lib. 18:07:29 The only problem is that applying the patch takes 2 seconds. 18:09:12 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [Connection timed out] 18:10:28 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:10:51 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 18:16:30 attila: a test-suite does not specify the context for the design of the system, e.g., the rationale for design and implementation (comments are also a form of documentation) choices, assumptions and limitations of the system, extra-code policies and conventions.. 18:19:36 pkhuong: that makes me feel better :) 18:22:30 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-1.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 18:23:23 allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 18:23:48 attila: documentation is supposed to specify all that, and at least psychologically makes the system more stable, i.e. harder to change. stability to that extent is not always an aim, and that is why such documentation is not always appropriate. 18:24:31 -!- Ash_ is now known as Ash 18:25:41 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Yay! I'm a Llama again!"] 18:27:50 kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has joined #lisp 18:28:34 hmm. I withdraw my remark, I think 18:28:52 the finaliser cannot run until the fd-stream object has no references 18:29:58 and there's no way to get to that point without having called cancel-finalization 18:30:03 srcerer [n=chatzill@dns2.klsairexpress.com] has joined #lisp 18:30:31 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:30:53 whatever's closing my file descriptors while i still use them, it's not that 18:36:41 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-16-110.kosnet.ru] has quit [Success] 18:38:35 dan_b: is your sbcl new enough to have :dont-save finalizers? 18:38:56 -!- alley_cat [i=AlleyCat@sourcemage/elder/alleycat] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 18:39:38 if not, finalizers from before save-lisp-and-die would be my guess 18:41:07 alper [n=alper@88.249.167.182] has joined #lisp 18:41:17 -!- alper is now known as alpertekinalp 18:41:37 it is 18:41:48 hm. socket finalizers don't use :dont-save though they should, but unless you open sockets before saving a core... 18:42:06 at least, hmm. the source code I'm looking at is, I wonder if it corresponds to the lisp I'm running 18:42:11 borism [n=boris@195-50-199-184-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 18:42:48 whatever, I don't believe that the default core file would have a finalizer for fd 46 in it 18:42:52 -!- replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit [No route to host] 18:43:22 yeah, doesn't sound too likely 18:43:39 don-save went in 1.0.8.19 18:43:58 1.0.19 or so here, but I am cvs updating now 18:44:12 is your issue easy to reproduce? 18:44:33 for me, yes. ab -c10 -n100 will do it 18:44:49 untangling it from the rest of the application code, potentially rather harder 18:45:59 -!- dbalcer [i=dbalcer@151.83.27.151] has left #lisp 18:46:21 jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:51 have you considered instrumenting SB-UNIX:UNIX-CLOSE, SOCKINT::CLOSE, and SB-POSIX:CLOSE? 18:47:23 that's the next step if staring hard at it doesn't work 18:47:58 though I think they will need to log in some way that doesn't involve fd-streams to avoid affecting the problem 18:48:00 have you ruled out foreign code calling close()? 18:48:35 novaburst [i=novaburs@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has joined #lisp 18:49:36 I haven't ruled it out, but offhand I can't think of any foreign code that should be getting called at the times I'm testing 18:51:28 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 18:59:40 nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:00:10 vy [n=user@88.224.71.1] has joined #lisp 19:01:07 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:01:28 Xach: I'm trying to draw plain text of variable length into a fixed size canvas. Do you have any suggestions to proportionally adjust the font size according to canvas width/height? 19:01:40 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 19:02:16 Xach: I should have mentioned that I'm using vecto. 19:09:03 -!- nikodemus` [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:09:45 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45C8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:09:51 -!- soverton [n=user@75.145.221.229] has left #lisp 19:11:04 is Series still the best package for working with generators / lazy sequences? 19:11:52 yes 19:13:05 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.250.193] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:13:17 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2C477.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:13:51 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 19:15:33 -!- allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:22:00 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:25:42 -!- nikodemus_ [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:26:20 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E43C20.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:26:48 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 19:27:43 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 19:30:02 *H4ns* feels all the fun it is being a programmer faced with a documentationless library that requires staring at example code to find out how it is supposed to work 19:32:07 milanj [n=milan@79.101.250.193] has joined #lisp 19:36:13 h4ns: speaking of staring: I've been staring at usocket/sbcl-0.4 for several times now and I must say I really don't see the issue in the wait-for-input-internal routine. does hunchentoot call that function from a single thread? 19:36:31 *ehu* hates his release is still blocking 19:36:58 -!- travisjeffery [n=eatsleep@user64-159.vicres.utoronto.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:37:50 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@12.191.171.35] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 19:37:53 ehu: yes, i think i tested it with hunchentoot in single-threaded mode 19:38:09 hrm 19:38:30 -!- rdd [n=user@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:38:34 ehu: didn't i send you code to reproduce the problem? i think i did. 19:38:37 rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 19:38:37 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:38:53 the problem is that the fd-set structure is newly created on every invocation *and* fd-zero is called on it every time. 19:39:06 *ehu* looks in his archives 19:40:25 jajcloz [n=jaj@12.191.171.34] has joined #lisp 19:40:37 tmi [n=tmi@213.151.151.13] has joined #lisp 19:40:40 I'm not finding it (I searched the usocket list) 19:40:48 (for hunchentoot) 19:40:52 is that right? 19:41:05 dont know. let me look 19:41:40 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 19:42:00 ehu: to you personally, on 11-aug 19:42:03 -!- vy [n=user@88.224.71.1] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:42:16 ah. ok. I think I found it. 19:42:30 it's a description how to reproduce using hunchentoot 19:44:03 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 19:44:12 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs27013130.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 19:47:17 -!- alpertekinalp [n=alper@88.249.167.182] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:47:24 h4ns: one thing that might be it: I've learned that in some cases it might be required to listen on the third argument as well as the first. Even if only interested in read-sockets: it might be used to pass errors. Could you modify the code to do that? Or I can give you a patch. The problem is that the system which I used to develop that backend has net connectivity problems right now. 19:48:09 ehu: i can't currently put time into this, but i can give you access to a machne with ccl 19:48:31 ccl? this was with sbcl, right? 19:48:55 ehu of abcl? 19:49:17 dmiles: yes 19:49:47 10 of 58 tests fail for java-tests.lisp .. i really should have ran it for baseline before i started breaking thrings.. 19:49:51 is that normal? 19:50:16 ehu: erm, well anyway, sbcl is installed on that machine, too 19:50:25 REGISTER-JAVA-EXCEPTION.1, REGISTER-JAVA-EXCEPTION.1A ... thru 10 19:50:27 -!- Stateless is now known as Jarvellis 19:50:36 dmiles: no idea. I've never run them myself. 19:50:48 dmiles: but we should look at that, ofcourse. 19:51:16 For now, I'll assume it's normal. I'll need to check out an old version, build it and run the tests. 19:51:43 ehu, i still finishing that email soon 19:51:57 h4ns: that'd be great, then. Does it have hunchentoot? 19:52:06 ehu: sure 19:52:08 (is it the originally failing sbcl system?) 19:52:24 ehu: no, but it is very similar 19:52:41 ehu: send me your ssh key and i'll send you the account info back 19:53:04 ok. 19:53:49 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:54:17 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 19:54:41 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 19:55:17 h4ns: mail sent 19:55:45 dmiles: we're expecting your mail, but better be thorough than quick! 19:56:04 -!- mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-064-069.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:57:35 so what is the method for testing ABCL for when i break it? ussually (compile-system) is my unit tests.. but is there a goodf throughou way? 19:57:47 pkhuong: .31 builds ok here. must be mega's .32 changes. 19:57:49 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 19:59:08 dmiles: I use the ANSI CL compliance tests: over 21000 tests to assert correctness. 19:59:31 dmiles: the current level is 47 failures. 19:59:50 is there a readme to see how to set up and run them? 20:01:19 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 20:01:28 dacoda [n=user@fb04305.mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 20:02:17 dmiles: it's really simple (but no): check out the repository at svn://common-lisp.net/project/ansi-test/svn/trunk/ansi-tests 20:03:38 then go to that directory, run abcl 20:03:47 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.250.193] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:03:50 checkout out now.. ok in directory 20:03:55 then evaluate the form "(load "doit.lsp")" 20:05:39 Error loading /development/mirrors/ABCL-SVN/j/ansi-tests/lambda.lsp at line 302 (offset 6561) ? 20:06:50 ((lambda (#1=#:foo) #1#) 17) 20:07:31 oh sorry .. perhaps thats one that it fail.. maybe i need to turn off debugging? 20:08:23 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-044-007.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:08:26 I don't get any load errors. 20:08:38 milanj [n=milan@79.101.250.193] has joined #lisp 20:08:52 I do get failures, but I don't think any LAMBDA ones. 20:09:29 slyrus_: stack alignment again? 20:09:33 blitz_ [n=blitz@n15-60.dsl.vianetworks.de] has joined #lisp 20:10:21 strange i broke that.. gotta get clean ABCL and test.. also i am runing from jlisp 20:10:31 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.227.4] has joined #lisp 20:12:51 pkhuong: possible, but I don't see it yet 20:12:56 ouch. even when saving a custom executable core, it's pretty slow to start up because of mmapping. 20:14:13 dmiles: jlisp? 20:15:18 Xach: "it" == SBCL's core? 20:15:44 (I'm probably missing vast amounts of context.) 20:15:49 ehu, running from Editor.main.. then "run embedded lisp" 20:16:14 ah. sorry. I'm running from the command line. 20:16:21 lichtblau: yes. 20:16:52 ok from the cmdline clean.. seems to work fine.. going to try mine from cmdline now 20:16:59 mmapping of the core or of .so files used by the application? 20:17:14 lichtblau: mmapping of the core takes about 0.04 seconds on my system. 20:17:18 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:17:47 that's not especially slow by itself, but about 10x slower than, say, a perl hello world. 20:18:15 manuel_ [n=manuel@f053042179.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 20:18:24 maybe Lisp is more suited for other tasks than printing "hello world" 20:18:28 lichtblau: Well, I think it's the mmapping of the core. Maybe it's mmapping something else. 20:18:31 wait, just the one mmap syscall itself takes longer than perl hello world? 20:18:32 hugo__ [n=hugo@89-180-246-213.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 20:18:35 (and maybe perl is especially suited for that) 20:18:42 ehu, hrrm yeah ity just when i ran it from J 20:18:46 foom: 10x longer. 20:19:01 wow 20:19:39 silas428 [n=ryanpayt@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:19:56 big memmap, small string 20:20:04 erm, medium memmap i guess 20:20:06 ehu: Maybe. I expected an embedded-core executable program to be faster than other stuff, so the result surprised me 20:20:06 how are you measuring? 20:20:16 foom: strace -r 20:20:31 did you try -T? 20:20:47 Xach: not really. It's the usual format, except that it mmaps itself. 20:20:51 no, i'll give that a whirl. 20:21:03 pkhuong: Not really what? 20:21:06 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:22:05 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:17 not really expectable (given enough info) that an embedded core would load faster. 20:23:01 pkhuong: I had never measured startup time before, but the new embedded core options prompted me to compare to other things. 20:23:30 hmm. I don't appear to have an SBCL without incremental allocation on my system. :-) 20:23:40 I didn't know the "normal" way was slow...I didn't expect embedded-core to be faster than normal, just "fast". 20:23:59 foom: what does this tell me vs. -r? i/o? 20:24:06 -T is actual time spent in the syscall 20:24:13 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.2] has joined #lisp 20:24:19 vs time spent between one syscall and the next 20:24:21 in this case, the time spent in the syscall is very small 20:24:27 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has joined #lisp 20:24:36 so it's userlevel code between the mmap and the next thing that's slow 20:24:41 ok, thanks. 20:24:47 Xach: did the --script support for fasls make it into nikodemus's patch? I wonder if fasls-as-script-files are much slower than an embedded core. 20:25:31 pkhuong: i don't think that made it in 20:26:20 e.g., SBCL runs over the page table on startup itself. Don't know whether for which syscalls that time would appear with -r. 20:27:05 would the kernel need more time to add the pages than SBCL would need to fill its page table, or vice versa? (dumb question perhaps, but it's late and I have no clue about the kernel) 20:27:30 the kernel is fast at contiguous regions 20:27:50 -!- silenius [n=jl@fuckup.club.berlin.ccc.de] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:27:51 it's slower, but not unreasonable at what SBCL does to itself over time 20:28:10 until you want to fork the process, then it's pretty damn slow to copy over the fragmented page tables sbcl creates 20:28:35 Well, I'm looking forward to a study of SBCL startup time on xach.livejournal.com. 20:29:01 I'm pants at measuring the right thing, apparently. 20:29:09 *Xach* has no idea where to look from here 20:29:22 Xach: btw i don't see what you're saying 20:29:26 Also, I don't especially care, but I was a little surprised. 20:29:27 I'd stick lots of fprintf into the runtime/*.c personally. 20:29:52 sbcl --eval "(quit)" 0.01s user 0.01s system 90% cpu 0.022 total 20:29:53 We want pretty pictures showing where those 4 ms end up! 20:30:00 foom: a trivial program baked into the core is not especially fast compared to a trivial program in a scripting language, on this system. 20:30:14 foom: on my system it's about 10x slower. 20:30:20 interesting 20:30:23 err, 40 20:30:29 python -c pass 0.01s user 0.00s system 140% cpu 0.007 total 20:30:40 perl -e '' 0.00s user 0.00s system 0% cpu 0.036 total 20:30:46 wow! infinity times faster! 20:31:01 foom, did you make >1 run? :) 20:31:48 sorry, steady state after repeating a few times: 20:31:50 sbcl --eval "(quit)" 0.00s user 0.00s system 0% cpu 0.014 total 20:32:00 perl -e '' 0.00s user 0.01s system 738% cpu 0.001 total 20:32:03 heh, sbcl real 2.3s here; first run is always terribly terribly slow because of the size of the core 20:32:10 python -c pass 0.00s user 0.00s system 0% cpu 0.007 total 20:32:47 foom: shouldn't (user + system ~= total) on a system that's otherwise idle? 20:32:57 lichtblau: not for numbers that small 20:33:06 i'd ignore everything but realtime. 20:33:19 total is realtime, others are cpu time, which isn't reported as precisely 20:33:28 foom: on my system, real time is consistently 0.05s 20:33:32 Yeah, Python's ~20x faster than SBCL. (0.012 vs 0.22), for trivial apps. 20:33:59 -!- hugo_ [n=hugo@89-180-254-163.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:34:03 I get basically 4 ms system + 20 ms user, 22 ms real for python. 20:34:07 i can almost count the angels dancing in the startup time. 20:34:23 I make coffee while SBCL boots up. 20:34:27 And 10 ms real for SBCL (sometimes in system, sometimes in user according to time). 20:36:24 sbcl is a lot slower to startup from cold caches than others 20:36:49 echo 1 > /proc/sys/vm/drop_caches 20:36:56 then sbcl takes 1.528 total 20:37:10 suggests that it's touching way too much of the corefile upon startup. 20:37:20 good point 20:37:52 -!- silas428 [n=ryanpayt@c-67-182-172-128.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 20:39:33 run sync first to get a better idea 20:39:43 idea? 20:39:51 of the cache impact 20:39:57 -!- umis [n=umis@prudent-gloryer.volia.net] has quit [] 20:40:11 run it a few times in a row tells you that 20:40:55 after running it without being cached, the number of pages in cache is: 51.1 % 9303 pages 4752 resident 20:40:57 foom: if there are dirty cache pages, they won't be freed when you drop them 20:41:14 dlowe: yeah but they aren't. 20:41:32 (did verify that the number was 0 before running sbcl just then, btw) 20:42:14 so sbcl touches half of its 37M core file upon do-nothing startup. 20:44:16 ISTR> (defun sb-ext:finalize (o f &key dont-save) (declare (ignore o f dont-save)) nil) 20:44:19 ;; and still they come 20:44:51 at this rate I'll have to stop guessing at straws and start approaching the task methodically 20:45:56 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-73-114.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 20:48:32 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:48:59 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 20:49:15 -!- Jarvellis is now known as AnarchoJarv 20:53:35 lui1 [n=luis@bl5-52-106.dsl.telepac.pt] has joined #lisp 20:53:41 -!- lui1 [n=luis@bl5-52-106.dsl.telepac.pt] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:55:43 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 20:56:05 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:57:42 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 20:58:31 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 20:58:49 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:59:50 -!- dacoda [n=user@fb04305.mathematik.tu-darmstadt.de] has left #lisp 21:00:05 kngspook [n=King@unaffiliated/alpha] has joined #lisp 21:00:08 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0D5B7.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:48 dan_b: I hate it when that happens 21:01:16 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:01:24 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:03:11 did making purify a no-op increase or decrease startup time? 21:03:49 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:04:04 Saving the page tables instead of scanning every object in the core decreased it a lot. 21:05:01 someone on sbcl-devel mentioned that sb-ext:run-program has lots of race conditions. can someone comment on that? i.e. what in particular is racy? 21:05:17 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:05:25 it's fast enough these days that it doesn't bother me, at least. :) it seems to touch approx the same number of pages for a giant core and the basic sbcl core. 21:05:36 -!- kngspook [n=King@unaffiliated/alpha] has left #lisp 21:05:54 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-224-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:08:19 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 21:10:37 -!- s_p [n=s_p___@77.241.163.216] has quit [No route to host] 21:16:37 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-105-3-209.w193-250.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:17:12 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-219-188-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 21:17:32 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0CB16.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:17:38 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 21:17:56 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:19:55 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:26:56 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@f053042179.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [] 21:27:35 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has quit [] 21:32:57 dthomp [n=dat@71.237.217.129] has joined #lisp 21:33:04 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 21:34:34 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E44028.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:37:02 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45C8C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:37:39 is "Organize into suites" section (http://cl-cookbook.sourceforge.net/testing.html#writesuite) humorous or does RT have facilities for organizing tests into groups? 21:40:08 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:40:38 RT is a simplistic framework that seems to do the job (or gets forked when it doesn't). There are other heavier testing frameworks around. I believe there's a list on cliki. 21:41:33 pkhuong: thanks - I checked out the list - I was just curious about the cl-cookbook entry... if there was any point to it... 21:42:25 -!- sely [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 21:42:47 If I have a list of the form ((1 2 3) (3 4 5)), how to print every sub-list on a new line? 21:43:15 Goan: Using FORMANT 21:43:19 Goan: Using FORMAT 21:43:52 i'll read about format 21:47:01 Goan: another way, (mapc #'print '((1 2 3) (3 4 5))) 21:47:32 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 21:48:31 sely [n=rps@c-24-7-206-73.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:11 locklace: oh why didn't I think of that, that's so much better than using FORMAT 21:49:48 Goan: but format is fun, (format t "~{~A~&~}" '((1 2 3) (3 4 5))) 21:50:11 yeah no use learning to read documentation 21:54:12 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@n15-60.dsl.vianetworks.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:54:19 and how to giving an extra line feed after this format 21:54:47 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:54:50 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.250.193] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 21:54:50 O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-190-121.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 21:55:40 Goan: add a ~% at the end of the format string or call (terpri) afterward 21:55:43 -!- mimies is now known as spiderbyte 21:55:44 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483F5C9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:56:00 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:58:47 dv____ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 22:01:41 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:01:44 segv [n=mb@p4FC1FE39.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 22:03:53 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:04:55 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:06:04 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 22:06:14 isn't there supposed to be a slime-complete-form or something to add all the closing parens to the current form? i have the latest slime but there doesn't seem to be anything like this 22:07:40 slime-close-all-parens-in-sexp? 22:08:00 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:08:03 i don't seem to have any functions starting with slime-close 22:08:39 because you didn't load slime-editing-commands contrib? 22:08:44 that's in the slime-editing-commands contrib 22:09:00 oh, let me see if i have that 22:09:03 there's a rare instance of Xach being beat to the draw ;) 22:09:07 it is part of slime 22:09:21 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 22:09:29 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-224-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:09:41 ah, there's all kinds of crazy stuff in there, thanks 22:11:31 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslc-082-082-044-007.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 22:11:31 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 22:12:39 -!- antgreen [n=green@74.210.106.222] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:12:42 blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 22:14:31 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 22:16:05 -!- AnarchoJarv is now known as NormalJarv 22:18:23 quite a flowery requiem for the Fred editor on info-mcl this morning. 22:18:27 -!- Partyzant [n=Partyzan@rps312.ovh.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:18:30 Partyzant [n=Partyzan@rps312.ovh.net] has joined #lisp 22:18:47 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:19:05 *rvirding* good evening everybody 22:19:38 http://thread.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.mcl.general/2808 22:19:49 was just firing up google (: 22:20:04 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 22:20:54 -!- dthomp [n=dat@71.237.217.129] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:21:08 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 22:21:19 dthomp [n=dat@71.237.217.129] has joined #lisp 22:21:44 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:22:30 lemonodor: leaping analogies, batman! 22:23:17 miltonian it is (: 22:23:44 locklace, I have applied the same format recursively on top of the existing (format t "~{~{~A~&~}~}" solution "~%~").. but it does not give the new line feed on the top level 22:25:07 Goan: You should read up on Format. 22:25:16 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:25:29 Goan: what exactly are you trying to achieve? 22:26:01 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:26:14 Goan: 1% 22:27:10 locklace, after I apply the above format I get my list in this format.. I get the output in this format 22:27:12 http://pastebin.ca/1232273 22:28:25 Goan, you're still just trying to print an extra newline after printing each element? 22:28:39 I did that for the first level 22:28:46 this is the next level 22:28:49 Self Total Cumul 22:28:50 Nr Count % Count % Count % Calls Function 22:28:50 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ 22:28:50 1 94 7.6 97 7.8 94 7.6 - SB-IMPL::RUN-EXPIRED-TIMERS 22:29:02 this is real, or an artifact of sb-sprof overhead? 22:29:11 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:29:47 -!- dthomp [n=dat@71.237.217.129] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:29:52 Goan: well, add a ~% in the right place in your format string and you'll get an extra newline 22:30:03 I am trying the same :-) 22:30:25 I guess from the with-interrupts form that it's getting a bunch of sigprofs landing here that should more correctly be assigned to the caller, whoever that is 22:30:29 anybody with an interest in usocket, please check out the 0.4.x branch and test it. (h4ns: I already did your tests, which seem fine) 22:30:50 Goan: Why did you put "~%~" as an argument? 22:31:07 any results (success and failure) can be reported to usocket-devel@c-l.net 22:31:14 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-87-37.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 22:31:28 *ehu* leaves to sleep now. 22:32:06 dan_b: right... wrap r-e-timers in an inline function that does the with-interrupts stuff (and rebuild :|) 22:32:26 ? 22:32:54 -!- blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:33:03 thre only caller that grep finds is sigalrm-handler, which I guess answers that question 22:34:35 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-fbe860f528e05147] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 22:35:20 FareWell [n=Fare@63.107.91.99] has joined #lisp 22:36:00 hjpark` [n=user@61.109.28.117] has joined #lisp 22:36:25 is it possible that funcall with string of function name? 22:36:44 -!- ffx` [n=tits@60-241-74-240.static.tpgi.com.au] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:37:02 (funcall (find-symbol "+") 1 2)2 22:37:11 ahaas, that was a typo 22:37:12 s/)2/)/ 22:37:58 stassats: the result should be 3 22:38:18 stassats: find-symbol work. thx :) 22:38:53 that's highly dependent on *package*. Also, before you ask, you'll probably want to upcase the string. 22:39:25 hmm.. 22:40:01 tickleme_eddie [n=kurumin@189.24.191.198] has joined #lisp 22:40:23 why do you want to do this anyway? 22:40:57 i just pass some code of string to lisp program 22:41:12 i have to pass the function name with string "func-name" 22:41:53 -!- tickleme_eddie [n=kurumin@189.24.191.198] has left #lisp 22:44:55 xb 22:52:21 sctb [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 22:56:15 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:56:27 nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:18 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:57:48 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:58:11 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit ["Have to update my .emacs"] 22:58:14 'string 23:01:14 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:02:06 -!- schme [n=marcus@sxemacs/devel/schme] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:04:20 -!- attila_lendvai [n=ati@catv-89-133-170-239.catv.broadband.hu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:06:14 rpg- [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 23:07:30 -!- rpg_laptop [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:07:55 -!- hjpark` [n=user@61.109.28.117] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:10:00 bert2 [n=po@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 23:11:13 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:11:38 -!- novaburst [i=novaburs@sourcemage/mage/novaburst] has left #lisp 23:11:41 can I use pointers in lisp anyhow? 23:11:58 what's a pointer 23:11:59 yes, but then you're on your own 23:12:07 bert: what do you really want to do? 23:12:34 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [] 23:13:40 FareWell: implement the A*-algorithm in lisp, in C I just made a linked list.. but I'm thinking about adding the paths I'm working on as a list of lists of positions and send it recursively.. any ideas? 23:14:03 bert2: You can actually make a linked list in lisp using CONS 23:14:22 a* (search-tree) is in PAIP chapter 6 i suppose. 23:14:27 bert2: they can be passed around by reference and the references mutated just like in C 23:15:21 ah, so I just make a global variable, a tree of positions which I work on? 23:15:23 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:15:50 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-73-114.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 131 (Connection reset by peer)] 23:16:22 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 23:16:22 (i meant search-graph) 23:16:59 yeah, I think I get what to do now =) 23:17:01 thx 23:17:10 no 23:17:12 there is absolutely no reason why you would use a global variable for this 23:17:58 why not? 23:18:05 bert2: pointers are the last thing you want for that 23:18:47 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:18:55 bert2: just use linked list in lisp. I presume you mean doubly-linked. 23:19:29 I don't remember if those in fare-utils are working or not. They probably are. 23:20:22 bert2: 1st rule of global variables: don't use them 23:20:30 =) 23:20:32 I'll have to go, sorry. I'll be posting later 23:20:41 bert2: exceptions are for the time when you are better at programming 23:21:00 alright =) 23:21:11 -!- bert2 [n=po@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 23:22:26 I have to read a file containing a combination of 1/3/d/f/b/./* in the format as in http://pastebin.ca/1232312 .. and convert each of the characters individually to string and then put them into list of lists form. How do I approach this problem. 23:23:18 I am reading about read-line function, is there any other function useful for this problem 23:27:52 the problem seems trivial enough that read-line and split-sequence are all you need 23:28:06 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 23:28:16 ok, pointless uoptimization question: should I expect princ-to-string to be a reasonably efficient way to format numbers in general, given that I want to handle rationals/integers/reals etc 23:28:28 FareWell: hi! 23:28:29 hello FareWell 23:28:38 if there are hidden difficulties, then try using some parser-making library 23:28:39 hi 23:28:44 FareWell: sbcl recently got a feature where a saved core can completely control its argv 23:28:55 yup, I saw your messages on sbcl-devel 23:28:57 or does it introduce vast amounts of unneeded generality? I can't imagine there's many kinds of thing to print that are slower than numbers 23:29:01 I'll have to update cl-launch 23:30:03 Xach: how do I detect if the feature's there? 23:30:17 Xach: where is it documented? 23:30:25 it's not in debian's sbcl yet, is it? 23:30:31 fe[nl]ix, hi. 23:30:33 FareWell: it's not in a released sbcl yet 23:30:47 fe[nl]ix, do you have sigfd / kevent(signal) support in iolib yet? 23:31:05 nope 23:31:07 Farewell, thanks I'll also look at split-sequence 23:31:08 FareWell: it's a new keyword argument to save-lisp-and-die...not exactly sure how you might detect it. 23:31:39 FareWell: what do you want to do with signals ? 23:32:49 fe[nl]ix, integrate the watching of processes (children or not) within the event loop 23:33:24 Goan: split-sequence is a library, not built into CL (but easy to implement, too). 23:33:40 FareWell: for erlang-in-lisp ? 23:33:46 fe[nl]ix, yes, and clsh 23:34:28 I'm asking rommel to work on clsh next thing after we're done with the current server hacks. 23:35:34 apart from split-sequence, is there any other function built into CL that I can use with read-line 23:35:35 FareWell: what's up with xcvb? 23:35:39 scottj [i=foobar@209.181.138.162] has joined #lisp 23:36:22 -!- thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:36:39 -!- rpg- is now known as rpg|away 23:37:30 bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:46 ok, what is problem? 23:37:53 whoops, wc 23:37:57 Is it normal for slime to insist that the last row of it's output be displayed at the very bottom of the window if the content of the buffer is already the height of the window? When I have a lot of content I'll press C-l to get the last line displayed above the bottom of the window, but the second I press return it will go back to the bottom of the window 23:38:00 rvirding, hi! 23:38:10 jsnell, it's sleeping at present. 23:38:25 jsnell, current git repo has something that actually works 23:38:37 but no one is working on productizing it at present. 23:39:34 FareWell: still working @ITA ? 23:39:35 actually works = you can convert an ASDF system to XCVB, produce a Makefile to compile it in parallel with separate compilation, and on a 4-core machine with SBCL and your CFASL patch, it's faster than using ASDF. 23:39:38 fe[nl]ix, still 23:41:43 cool. but by "nobody working on productizing" you mean that it's not used inside ITA either? or just not fit for outside consumption? 23:41:53 jsnell, where the conversion can be automated on large systems thanks to asdf-dependencies-grovel 23:42:25 the intern who was working on it at ITA has left and not been replaced, and I'm scheduled to do other more urgent tasks first. 23:43:50 so it's fit for consumption, just not actively used. 23:44:27 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-224-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:44:37 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-224-058.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:44:40 a bit poor in features at the time being, and the API is probably not stable. 23:44:43 but it works 23:45:05 ok, good to hear that the basic approach was valid 23:45:57 Drakeson [n=user@bas3-toronto02-1279545961.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 23:46:24 Unix system call select() failed: Resource temporarily unavailable 23:46:26 hmm 23:46:57 is (format t "~a~a" x y) the best (fastest) way to concatenate two characters to obtain a string? 23:47:27 it's the wrong answer no matter how fast it is 23:47:32 I think you mean format nil not t 23:47:42 dan_b: heh. sure :) 23:49:06 Drakeson, probably not what you want. 23:49:14 I would expect that some combination of make-string and (setf elt) would be faster, but the only way to find out is to test it 23:50:42 *rvirding* good night everyone 23:50:56 -!- sctb [n=sebell@S01060016cbc2d41a.cg.shawcable.net] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 22.2.1"] 23:51:16 dan_b: hmm, will try. thanks. 23:52:11 I am assuming you have already identified this as a time-critical part of your application 23:52:25 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 23:52:31 dan_b: yes 23:53:06 *dan_b* just spent an evening optimising some very old html generation code and got it to cons 60% less- the difference in actual run time turns out to be unmeasurable 23:53:58 dan_b, is html generation the bottleneck? 23:54:01 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 23:54:15 apparently not ;-) 23:54:31 sb-sprof output shows no obvious bottleneck anywhere 23:55:17 is lisp the bottleneck? 23:55:28 Farewell: is the read-line is giving me .1.dfb. I am planning to convert it into string, and then doing substring and pushing those individual strings into the corresponding sublists. 23:55:31 I think the *actual* bottleneck is users doing weirdass things that would not occur to me to try 23:55:39 sounds feasible? 23:55:48 and I should dome up with some kind of application-domain fuzz test 23:55:51 come 23:56:17 dan_b, have you captured actual traffic to look at what users are doing? 23:56:24 jfrancis_ [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 23:56:27 Goan: try it; something like that will work. 23:56:29 are they complaining about speed? 23:56:34 can you cache stuff? 23:56:44 alright, Aisling 23:56:50 yes, but I can't capture actual traffic at peak periods because that's when the system is on the limit anyway 23:57:09 dan_b, maybe a frontend can capture it for you? 23:57:10 the problem is that when it gets to capacity it spirals downwards in a way that makes it difficult to tell what brok efirst 23:57:22 is it sheer memory pressure? 23:57:31 aka swapping 23:57:41 no, it's barely touching swap 23:58:04 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:58:24 sbt [n=sbt@rrcs-208-125-96-78.nys.biz.rr.com] has joined #lisp 23:58:31 hopefully having fixed the evil bug where it was closing the same unix fd twice will have some kind of nice effect 23:58:41 is there contention on some other resource such as locks, fds, etc? 23:59:06 double closing can be bad-- especially when the fd has been reopened in the meantime 23:59:11 yes, exactly that 23:59:19 (we had a bug like that here some time ago) 23:59:25 hi, I'm trying to write a foreach macro that would work for both lists hand hash-tables. in other words, I'm looking for something like defmethod, only for macros. does CL have this? 23:59:42 *list and hash-tables