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02:07:19 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:07:38 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 02:08:30 Riastradh, just guessing: e-mail the mailing list without subscribing to it and ask to be cc'ed 02:09:39 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 02:09:52 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 02:10:08 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:16 rottcodd_ [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:13:19 -!- davazp [n=user@67.pool85-60-234.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:13:58 -!- allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:14:10 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 02:14:10 allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 02:15:08 b4|hraban: can't. Have to be subscribed to send. 02:15:54 Riastradh: You could always email someone else and have them forward it to -devel. 02:16:31 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:17:11 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 02:17:27 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 02:17:32 pkhuong, how about pestering someone on IRC? 02:18:03 The sb-posix contrib's test readlink.error.1 fails if it is run as root. I don't think there's any general way to fix it and to force readlink(2) to return EACCES. 02:19:53 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 02:21:11 st konqueror 02:24:52 does sbcl on os x support threads? 02:24:55 Riastradh: noted. 02:25:32 ah it looks like it does 02:25:51 Also, less noteworthily, the test utimes.1 fails if it is run a file system that does not record atimes. 02:25:52 syamajala: if you compile them in. OK for every day usage, probably not for a real webserver with a huge load. 02:26:04 its just for testing/dev 02:26:12 my server runs solaris 02:26:25 syamajala: and scl? (: 02:26:31 yeah 02:26:31 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:26:38 i just got a macbook pro today 02:27:15 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 02:27:19 its a nice upgrade from a 12in. powerbook 02:28:10 syamajala: do you find it absolutely enormous in comparison? :) 02:28:26 yeah, but you know what 02:28:30 i like it 02:29:19 hopefully there will be a lot less scrolling emacs. 02:29:59 I'd go with a larger monitor. More portable when you're not at your desk, much more screen esate when you are. 02:30:43 mib_w8v3835n [i=7bddcc68@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-55804b8a0d9fb47c] has joined #lisp 02:31:09 well i have a monitor/tv in my room at school, but i'm finding myself in my room less and less 02:31:17 *hefner* doesn't get why they don't make a more svelte model 02:35:47 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-30-215.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 02:41:35 i think the macbooks are just right for size 02:41:54 i have a 15 inch mbp and its too big/heavy to be carried around every day 02:43:12 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:45:13 yeah i had a hard time deciding between the mbp and the mb 02:46:13 but after getting the pro i'm glad i did 02:46:49 haiwei [n=haiwei@221.219.123.44] has joined #lisp 02:47:14 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:47:16 stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has joined #lisp 02:52:20 -!- tritchey 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3.0.3/2008092417]"] 03:37:36 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 03:37:39 -!- JHVH [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:38:00 -!- allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:12 -!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:56 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-96-173.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 03:42:35 -!- rottcodd_ [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:44:23 -!- emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:44:39 emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 03:46:55 rottcodd_ [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 03:47:00 beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-96-173.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 03:47:08 good morning 03:47:47 -!- hugo__ [n=hugo@89.181.124.208] has quit [Success] 03:47:57 mornin', beach. 03:48:18 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:50:26 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 03:51:27 -!- emma_ [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 03:51:39 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 03:52:58 dialtone_ [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-37-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:25 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:58:38 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 03:59:44 davo_ [n=davo@ip68-6-224-17.sd.sd.cox.net] has joined #lisp 04:01:30 -!- davo [n=davo@ip68-6-224-17.sd.sd.cox.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:02:46 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-37-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:05:02 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:05:14 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 04:05:33 rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-118-110.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:05:57 -!- alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:06:33 -!- beach [n=user@ABordeaux-158-1-96-173.w86-201.abo.wanadoo.fr] has left #lisp 04:07:21 alexsuraci [n=Alex@pool-71-188-133-67.aubnin.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 04:07:40 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:07:46 chsh /usr/bin/emacs 04:08:00 ....uhhh 04:11:59 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 04:12:12 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 04:12:38 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-104-118-110.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 04:12:49 -!- isomer`` [n=isomer@xplr-ts-t11-74-127-214-25.barrettxplore.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:15:15 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-084-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 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[n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 05:07:16 Is there a way to evaluate a certain parameter of macro before the macro is evaluated? Or evaluating the parameter inside of macro is only the way? 05:08:38 The latter. If you need to do that, you are probably doing something wrong. 05:09:09 beach: ic.. thanks! 05:10:04 tomoyuki28jp: I recommend Emacs abbrev-mode, so that you can have things like "ic" expanded automatically to "I see". 05:12:04 beach: thanks for your advice :) 05:12:13 anytime! 05:12:30 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:12:42 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 05:18:35 anekos [n=anekos@pl724.nas923.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 05:19:17 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:19:22 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 05:19:34 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 05:20:44 eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-168-121.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 05:21:28 -!- eno [n=eno@nslu2-linux/eno] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 05:22:35 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-30-215.kosnet.ru] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 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-!- kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:15:06 -!- emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:16:48 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-084-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:06 thom_logn [n=thom@pool-96-229-99-100.lsanca.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 07:22:47 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-30-215.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 07:25:31 kidd2 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 07:35:35 -!- Aankhen`` is now known as Aankh|dhoss 07:37:00 -!- pjb [n=pjb@81-66-48-185.rev.numericable.fr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:37:19 -!- Aankh|dhoss is now known as Aankhen`` 07:37:24 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c82f682626fc5d33] has joined #lisp 07:38:10 Facedown [n=HELLO@c-69-140-211-205.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:38:54 I noticed all ABCL files have the GNU License pointer at the top. However, some of these files contain old CMUCL code. Does the CMU license allow relicensing under GPL by ? 07:39:33 Or should I rather try to find out which files this concerns and mark them - after the fact - as 07:39:51 *ehu* thinks CMUCL is BSD/MIT licensed 07:39:52 as far as i know, cmucl is in the public domain 07:40:03 argh 07:40:37 not all jurisdictions recognise public domain 07:40:47 well, ok. thanks. 07:40:58 Vratha [n=grimw@ool-4356a22c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 07:41:01 -!- Vratha [n=grimw@ool-4356a22c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 07:41:46 and i don't think that all jurisdictions recognise gpl 07:42:41 that's a silly thing to say 07:43:17 db48x: while you are not in russia 07:43:42 db48x: he's actually correct. Not all jurisdictions allow transfer of copyright. 07:43:49 the public domain is something written into the law in the US, but not necessarily other places 07:44:06 the gpl doesn't transfer the copyright 07:44:21 yes. to the FSF, as far as I understand 07:44:29 no, it doesn't 07:45:00 the Gnu software stack is composed of GPLd programs where the copyrights have been transferred two the FSF, but those are separate actions 07:45:15 ah. ok. 07:45:18 merely licensing some code under the GPL doesn't transfer the copyright to anyone else 07:45:31 well, then there's no issue I think. 07:45:45 but the 'public domain' isn't defined in all jurisdictions. 07:45:50 that's correct 07:46:24 but in no jurisdictions is the GPL specifically banned or outlawed or anything rediculous like that 07:47:13 too bad. 07:47:34 maybe in some places the GPL is ineffective, or insufficient, or uncecessary 07:47:35 heh; sorry, that was about the "public domain" license on a lot of software. 07:48:24 yea, it is too bad that not every country has a public domain 07:49:41 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:50:43 preferrably even in agreement about its definition. 07:50:46 :-) 07:51:10 More interesting is of course that the general population of most places don't give a fuck about copyright. So the law can say whatever it wants, eh? ;) 07:53:33 in almost no jurisdictions has the GPL been tested in court, either 07:58:06 I thought the Netfilter people actually went to court in a few cases 07:58:23 (because of GPL violations) 07:58:37 Does that not only concern the USA though? 07:59:15 anyway, as the distributor of the abcl software, I can't afford not to care about copyright of components used. 07:59:30 'course :) 07:59:38 -!- ehu changed the topic of #lisp to: #lisp 07:59:46 oh. sorry. 07:59:50 :D 08:00:13 ehu: Just close source the bugger, and yer all set. 08:00:15 Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language: , . common-lisp.net back in service, please email problems to admin@common-lisp.net. New: ABCL 0.0.11 08:00:45 heh. an effective method. 08:01:02 -!- ehu changed the topic of #lisp to: Common Lisp, the #1=(programmable . #1#) programming language: , . common-lisp.net back in service, please email problems to admin@common-lisp.net. New: ABCL 0.0.11 08:01:14 *that's* what I meant. 08:01:42 etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 08:02:01 oh cool 08:02:13 ehu: yes you can 08:02:32 *dmiles* is still trying to merge ABCL with the closed src javalisp ;P 08:02:44 or at least, you can take the public-domaining of CMUCL as a declaration that you're unlikely to be sued for distributing CMUCL code, in whatever form 08:02:59 that seems to work for Douglas Crosher and for Clozure, if you want precedents 08:04:26 -!- Xeones1 [n=Xeones@cpe-66-108-46-57.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:04:46 i have a couple merges of ABCL that work, but each one has to call the other one with something like an inferior mode still in order to not break the compiler 08:05:10 nice; but do they claim copyright too? 08:05:42 dmiles: that's a bit too fragmented I'm affraid. 08:07:30 there were raids by russian authorities on the company and organizations in order to find pirated software, and if you have no document, you have pirated software 08:07:43 russian laws are weird 08:07:52 I hope man pages count. 08:08:11 oh document 08:08:15 not documentation 08:10:29 ehu, oh am am refering to the fact i have to "LispObject mySubLispObject.toABCLObject()" and "SubLObject myABCLObject.toSubLObject()" i my code to merge the two java lisps.. and make one cache the other. but for EVAL .. i was saying i have to make them call each otehr with (org...Environment))SubLEnvironment.cuurentEnvironmet().toABCLObject() 08:10:48 futuresoon [n=Xeones@cpe-66-108-46-57.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 08:10:51 phadthai_ [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has joined #lisp 08:11:01 i my code/in my code 08:11:04 -!- phadthai [i=mmondor@ginseng.pulsar-zone.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:12:22 ehu, i dunno .. i just wish LispObject was an interface 08:13:29 i guess what i have to do to make the two java lisps really work together is just add my javalisps code (all interface based) into the ABCL src 08:14:29 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:14:43 one day though i pray the company will opensrc it and all the benefits go to ABCL.. then we just use the ABCL JRTL 08:17:01 -!- proqesi [n=user@unaffiliated/proqesi] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:17:01 -!- etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 08:18:11 the java lisp i am ussing was designed to support a lisp webserver and a database system.. not to run full CL programs, so its missing alot of nice things that ABCL isnt missing 08:21:14 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 08:22:29 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAC974.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 08:24:29 stassats: yea, that sucks 08:27:07 stassats: what kind of documentation is required, in that case? 08:28:17 -!- phadthai_ is now known as phadthai 08:28:32 db48x: i don't know exact details 08:29:00 stassats: presumably if you purchased a commercial product that happened to be GPLd that would be ok, right? 08:29:12 db48x: i suppose so 08:30:05 so the real risk is using software that isn't sold 08:30:25 that would truely suck 08:31:47 dmiles: switch your current lisp with abcl then? 08:31:49 Maybe you just need a document saying you voted for Putin, and you're ok. 08:31:58 heh 08:32:36 Or whatever his puppet is named. 08:32:41 ehu, yeah ;P ... over the next couple of days i am going to try this out 08:34:05 ehu, our SubLObject interface has 250+ methods .. SubLSymbol add 20 more 08:36:19 some interface name conflicts like Cons.push(...) returns a Cons 08:36:22 some are making translations of gpl with notarial acknowledgement. but don't know whether it helps, haven't heard of any legal cases involving gpl 08:37:00 Jarvellis [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 08:37:32 allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 08:38:29 ehu, but doable nontheless... i dunno maybe there is a way i can turn to all .patch files.. then beg you both, Cycorp and ABCL 08:40:26 the .lisp 2 .java that they created emits .java that hits a library that contains allot of static calls.. simular to how they are in Lisp.java 08:40:29 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-249-086.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 08:42:44 example if the lisp programmer calls (nth 5 mySeq).. it goes to SequencesImpl.nth(LispObject nth0, LispObject seq) 08:44:36 rickardg [n=user@c-e51ae455.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 08:44:36 very very very prims actually get made.. ussual a java tramploline exists 08:45:41 and .lisp files all get converted into trponlines only using other tramplines.. etc.. ABCL same thing.. but from .class .. not to .java 08:45:44 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 08:52:44 dmiles: if you have design suggestions which improve ABCL's code (and as a side effect improve integratability of abcl in your app), I'm all ears 08:53:51 hi. 08:54:37 Hai. 08:56:17 i have a suggestion currently, I am not sure it constitures as an improvemtn at this point but later will: one of the first things i do with ABCL src, First with the IDE i use, i make all static calls (like to Lisp.java) explicitly called in the source code, then I make LispObject stop inheriting from Lisp 08:57:20 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 08:58:45 I think the original reasons for the way it was is threefold but not correct: 1) make genreation of bytecode easier, since we always know where the INVOKESTATIC goes... but turns out the verifier needs to hear org/armedbear/lisp/Lisp anyways 2) force class loading on any LispObject creation 3) maybe INVOKESTATICs to a superclass is faster 09:02:35 when you break appart the superclass .. immediately you find 3-4 possible bugs that were in the making.. one is that one method in Lisp that was meant to be static was left as an instance method 09:04:20 two is that the hashmap for object descritpion might not have always been intializaed at the right time 09:05:30 a third is a method ambiguity in Pathname 09:09:21 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@10.pool85-49-183.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 09:18:48 stassats` [n=stassats@ppp78-37-162-94.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 09:19:14 that's great to hear! I'd like to hear more details about that. Could you write a (summarizing) mail to armedbear-j-devel? 09:19:34 I have to leave now, you see. I'd hate for this to disappear unrecorded. 09:20:15 ok. i just checked out the new sources .. and am going thru what i was saying hear and will put this into an email 09:20:21 hear/here 09:23:40 dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-038-063.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:26:40 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #lisp 09:27:01 manuel_ [n=manuel@mnhm-590fbed9.pool.einsundeins.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:49 blAckEn3d [n=Alex@p54BA2120.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 09:28:53 hi 09:29:17 hello blAckEn3d 09:29:34 does a lisp environment (say sbcl) have both an interpreter and a compiler? 09:29:58 Yeah 09:30:05 and if so how are they intermingled? 09:30:11 i mean 09:30:18 if i type (if t 1 2) 09:30:27 <_3b> implementation defined 09:30:27 does this get compiled or interpreted? 09:30:38 oh 09:30:39 Yeah, that's up to the implementation 09:30:40 <_3b> sbcl will compile it unless you tell it not to 09:30:51 Not all runtimes can compile the code natively 09:31:26 when a function is compiled all the macros are expanded recursively, right? 09:31:47 <_3b> yeah, that is about the only requirement for compilation if i remember correctly 09:31:58 You can nest macros, if that's what you mean. 09:32:21 so if, say, i have a (format t "compile time~%") in a macro it will get printed at compile time 09:32:23 vasa [n=vasa@mm-50-185-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 09:32:44 <_3b> probably 09:32:50 thanks 09:35:52 -!- dash__ [n=dash@dslb-088-065-141-255.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:36:02 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:37:02 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 09:37:18 i want to learn how to program graphics in lisp. i just want to do simple things like pop up a window and draw some patterns in it on a white background. are there any tutorials that show how to do simple things like that? 09:38:14 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-181-250.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 09:38:40 minion: tell holymoo about clim 09:40:31 the bot isn't working but at least i know what to google for 09:40:33 danke 09:40:39 !clim 09:42:18 i read article about lisp and the guy said more lisp programmers should make use of ASDF, what the heck is that? 09:42:19 holymoo: direct your attention towards clim: The Common Lisp Interface Manager (CLIM) is a powerful Lisp-based programming interface that provides a layered set of portable facilities for constructing user interfaces. http://www.cliki.net/clim 09:42:35 danke 09:42:42 slash__ [n=Unknown@p4FEADCEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 09:42:45 wow minion is lagging 09:42:58 minion: tell zu22 about ASDF 09:42:59 zu22: look at ASDF: asdf is Another System Definition Facility. http://www.cliki.net/ASDF 09:43:04 hah 09:43:16 minion: tell zu22 about minion 09:43:16 zu22: look at minion: minion is an IRC robot (who prefers the term "electronically composed.") For online help, try /msg minion help Minion is hosted at common-lisp.net and is usually connected to the #lisp IRC channel. http://www.cliki.net/minion 09:43:28 I just found a gem of a 2-year-old library that does exactly what I was banging my head against things for: http://www.cliki.net/csp 09:44:13 mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-091-060.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:47:11 I've been wrapping rsm.queues in an object with a lock for synchronization and using them as message-passing channels in threaded programs. But I really wanted the ability to do something like select(2) on a set of these channels; it turns out that that's at least non-trivial. 09:47:30 is there a website that lists the homepages of #lisp regulars? 09:47:32 csp (the library) apparently does that. 09:47:41 Piranha__: wow sounds advanced 09:48:36 zu22: google.com can do that 09:49:39 stasssasts: ok 09:49:50 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 09:50:13 Is there anything Google can't do? 09:50:32 www.google.com/search?q=halts: 09:51:47 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:52:05 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:52:14 Piranha__: that's why i use yahoo 09:53:23 -!- futuresoon [n=Xeones@cpe-66-108-46-57.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:35 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEAC974.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:54:48 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-c82f682626fc5d33] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 09:58:26 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084215.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 09:59:36 kpreid: --script option 10:03:39 i wonder if google runs lisp for any of their services 10:05:40 zu22: I'm guessing no. 10:06:09 schme: ah why not? i heard yahoo or ebay used to run it 10:07:08 zu22: can you give urls/sources for that? 10:07:15 zu22: I base my guess on googles three official languages being C++, Java, and Python. 10:07:27 Unless that changed :) 10:07:34 <_3b> big companies tend to prefer standardization over the benefits of any specific language 10:08:08 <_3b> yahoo bought PGs company, which used lisp, so they used lisp for a while... eventually rewrote it though 10:08:59 javascript! 10:09:01 I wouldn't be surprised if they used it in some research stuff, but I'm pretty sure they don't use it for things they deploy. 10:09:01 I heard some anecdote to the effect of: an engineer approaches the CTO of Google to make a request. The CTO says, "if you want to do something in Smalltalk, the answer is no." 10:09:15 Piranha__: Lisp is also on the list 10:09:17 The engineer says that that's not what he wants. The CTO asks, "Lisp?" Well, you get it. 10:09:29 trebor: heard it on the street 10:09:40 ?? 10:09:43 schme: ah 10:09:54 In what bizarre neighbourhood do people talk about programming on the street? 10:10:08 lol 10:10:10 well, small sample point. But I've seen some odd-ass languages used by large tech companies who have no direct affiliation with the language. 10:10:29 Cool St. In Awesomeville, U.S.A. 10:10:34 not deployed on a wide scale or used in anything much but experimental systems 10:10:39 but they were used. 10:11:27 I have a feeling NORAD runs on Lisp :P 10:11:45 zu22: nah, probably Ada among others 10:11:48 clhs: #. 10:11:48 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhf.htm 10:11:54 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 10:12:24 including some really old stuff. I have a friend who worked for AF on related things, and they kept crap for a very long time as long as it worked. 10:13:26 other militaries take it to a even more ridiculous extreme. the Russians still have stockpiles of bolt-action rifles and such build in the 19th Century. 10:15:55 Piranha__: you could probably get a semi-random conversation about code going on the streets of several areas of Silly Valley, Cambridge MA, and a few other places if you targeted people more likely at a glance to be devs 10:18:32 jeez, did I kill the conversation 10:19:17 -!- slash__ [n=Unknown@p4FEADCEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 10:19:28 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEADCEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:20:30 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-28-80.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 10:20:39 I have been struggling to make this work. Can anybody give me an advice? http://paste.lisp.org/display/68800 10:22:55 if you need to evaluate parameters, then you are doing it wrong 10:23:44 which is pretty much what I said before. 10:25:06 stassats`: beach: Why is that so? > if you need to evaluate parameters, then you are doing it wrong. Could you explain that more to me? 10:25:07 tomoyuki28jp: Don't make it a macro if you want it to evaluate its parameters 10:26:14 tomoyuki28jp: You can't have it both ways. If you want the arguments to be evaluated (as in (car x) (cdr x)), you also would have to accept that p and pp would be evaluated (and thus considered variables). 10:26:31 -!- rickardg [n=user@c-e51ae455.027-77-6c756e10.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 10:27:17 beach: Let's say if I wrote a macro named "macro1" and I want to use the macro like 100 times, I have to write (macro1 ...) for 100 times? I thought it would be much shorter if I can use mapcar or something to do that. 10:28:11 No matter how much you want that, macros are not going to be able to guess when you want the arguments evaluated or not. 10:28:12 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 10:28:38 tomoyuki28jp: I told you the solution, if you want the arguments to be evaluated, then a macro is not what you want. Use a function instaed. 10:28:39 do you simply want to write 100 identical forms? 10:30:10 beach: stassats`: uhmmm, I see.. thanks for your advice! 10:30:53 tomoyuki28jp: Often it can be good to write a function to do what you want, and then write a wrapper macro for the case when you don't want to have to quote your arguments. 10:30:58 -!- allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 10:32:26 nitx [n=nitx@ws.20080527134254.clnt.kht.ru] has joined #lisp 10:33:20 beach: When I use a macro, I use that because it is not written in function. In that case, writing the identical form for number of times I needed is the only way, right? 10:33:59 I guess you could use eval. 10:34:01 <_3b> why not write a macro that expands to 100 calls? 10:34:54 tomoyuki28jp: But that begs the question, though: why *did* you write it as a macro if you wanted the arguments to be evaluated? 10:34:58 _3b: I thought I can do that, but I could not find the way to make it. 10:36:00 younder [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 10:36:03 beach: So that I don't have to type the same thing number of times. In the example, (abbrev ...). 10:36:40 tomoyuki28jp: It's the other way around. Since it *is* a macro, your mapping doesn't work. 10:36:56 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084215.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 10:36:58 tomoyuki28jp: http://paste.lisp.org/display/68800#1 10:37:06 tomoyuki28jp: If you wrote it as a function, (car x) and (cdr x) would be evaluated, and everything would work. 10:37:54 tomoyuki28jp: So again, why did you write it as a macro if you wanted the arguments to be evaluated? 10:38:16 -!- blAckEn3d [n=Alex@p54BA2120.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["leaving"] 10:38:34 stassats`: oh yeah, I can use macrolet! thanks a lot! 10:38:58 tomoyuki28jp: no, macrolet isn't the point 10:38:58 *_3b* doesn't see what macrolet changes 10:41:14 beach: Actually, the abbrev macro is just a example. Let me give you the *real* macro I have been struggling for. I made the macro because it cannot make it by a function. 10:41:28 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 10:41:48 tomoyuki28jp: how come you don't answer my qeustions? 10:43:21 beach: Because the macro I made does the things which function cannot do. > why did you write it as a macro if you wanted the arguments to be evaluated? 10:43:29 beach: Does this answer your question? 10:44:00 and then you want it to do what macros cannot do? 10:44:31 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2E7B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 10:45:29 kidd [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 10:45:51 futuresoon [n=Xeones@cpe-66-108-46-57.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 10:46:22 tomoyuki28jp: that's certainly not the case for the macro you showed us, though. 10:47:45 beach: What I have been struggling is this actually. http://paste.lisp.org/display/68801 10:48:24 s/(_deftag x)/(deftag x)/ 10:49:59 tomoyuki28jp: I can't see why deftag should be a macro. 10:50:34 tomoyuki28jp: just make it a function, and quote html and body when you pass them. 10:52:15 -!- spiderbyte is now known as mimies 10:52:22 tomoyuki28jp: If you don't expect html and body to be evaluated, how come you expect x to? 10:52:51 beach: (deftag html) doesn't have to work. 10:53:16 tomoyuki28jp: turn deftag into a fuction, then. 10:54:29 beach: If I rewrite it with function and write like this, (html/ (body/)) body tag will be evaluated faster than html tag, right? Can I convert this to "" with function? I could not control the timing of the endtag outputed. 10:54:48 <_3b> beach: does the CASE in sicl handle T / OTHERWISE correctly? 10:55:14 -!- manuel_ [n=manuel@mnhm-590fbed9.pool.einsundeins.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 10:55:19 hkBst [n=hkBst@221pc223.sshunet.nl] has joined #lisp 10:55:33 <_3b> beach: seems to just tack on an empty progn instead of handling that clause 10:56:06 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 10:59:27 <_3b> beach: ah, looks like `(progn ,@(cdr clauses)) should be `(progn ,@(cdr clause)) in conditionals.lisp line 272 or so 11:01:08 davazp [n=user@67.pool85-60-234.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 11:03:31 ejs [n=eugen@213-231-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has joined #lisp 11:03:46 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-191-95.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit ["Come alive!"] 11:06:52 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [] 11:06:59 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:07:00 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 11:07:13 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:07:33 hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has joined #lisp 11:08:15 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [Client Quit] 11:09:57 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #lisp 11:13:04 -!- nitx [n=nitx@ws.20080527134254.clnt.kht.ru] has quit [""] 11:14:13 beach: I could make it with this simple macro. http://paste.lisp.org/display/68801#1 Thanks a lot for your help. 11:14:53 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 11:16:10 schasi [n=schasi@p54A2744A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:20:25 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 11:20:46 -!- xbxbxb [n=xb@p54A9BDF3.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:21:50 xbxbxb [n=xb@p54A9C59B.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:24:23 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 11:25:40 Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C294.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 11:26:01 davazp` [n=user@67.pool85-60-234.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 11:26:29 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-50-185-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 11:26:33 -!- davazp [n=user@67.pool85-60-234.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 11:26:42 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 11:27:48 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 11:28:38 alper [n=alper@88.249.167.182] has joined #lisp 11:28:49 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 11:29:53 -!- davazp` is now known as davazp 11:30:24 _3b: You could very well be right. Thanks! 11:31:49 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-28-80.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 11:32:04 _3b: Fixed! I have to write the test suite for that one day. 11:32:28 <_3b> beach: hopefully i'll get to test a bit more of it soon, once i implement blocks and exceptions,conditions and such 11:33:02 alper_ [n=alper@88.249.167.182] has joined #lisp 11:33:27 _3b: Remind me what you are working on! 11:33:44 <_3b> compiling to flash bytecode 11:33:52 ah, nice! 11:33:56 -!- alper_ is now known as alpertekinalp 11:34:46 _3b: Pushed! 11:34:49 <_3b> haven't decided how close to CL it will be, but trying to lean towards CL where convenient 11:35:50 <_3b> so already implemented CL functions help witrh the 'convenient' bit :) 11:36:19 sacla loop? 11:37:41 minion: memo for tomoyuki28jp: I didn't suggest that the generated code should be a function, only deftag. 11:37:42 Remembered. I'll tell tomoyuki28jp when he/she/it next speaks. 11:37:46 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:38:18 *beach* vanishes again to make a phone call. 11:40:05 <_3b> beach: think that fix is on the wrong line, should be in the PROGN not the IF if i understand it correctly 11:40:20 _3b: darn! 11:40:44 <_3b> don't guarantee i do understand it though :) 11:41:03 -!- froog_ is now known as froog 11:41:27 no, you are right. This is what I get for 1) not having a test suite yet, and 2) trying to do things too hastily. 11:42:10 *_3b* only even had a T clause due to not being able to compile NIL yet :) 11:43:11 OK, try now. I still did it very hastily, so who knows. 11:43:48 <_3b> looks like my version now 11:45:20 <_3b> is it allowed to macrolet/flet functions from the CL package? 11:46:34 <_3b> though now that i think about it, that won't help anyway 11:47:59 -!- alper [n=alper@88.249.167.182] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:48:20 <_3b> beach: any opinion on making sicl distinguish between host and target defun/defmacro/etc? 11:48:49 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 11:49:05 _3b: the bootstrapping issues are not at all clear in my mind at the moment. 11:50:26 emma [n=emma@unaffiliated/emma] has joined #lisp 11:50:46 _3b: I am pretty sure you can't flet or macrolet CL functions. 11:53:00 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 11:53:31 -!- [1]Maghnus is now known as Maghnus 11:53:46 timor [n=icke@port-87-234-97-27.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 11:55:28 it seems to me that the correct use of custom method combinations allow for crazy savings in terms of often used program-flow contructs 11:55:34 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:55:50 s/contructs/constructs 11:59:42 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 12:04:04 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 12:04:50 macros are better for that 12:05:23 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:08:26 younder: even if it involves heavy use of type-checking and modification of running code? 12:10:11 myrkraverk [n=johann@unaffiliated/myrkraverk] has joined #lisp 12:12:29 i would also think of method combinations being rather macroish 12:13:13 with the difference that the macro is already written 12:14:32 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-176.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 12:15:02 define-compiler-macro allows for compile time code generation dispatched on type 12:15:10 -!- Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has left #lisp 12:15:20 tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has joined #lisp 12:16:39 The problem with custom method combination is mostly that it dosn't follow peoples expectations 12:17:07 people as in programmer-people or user-people? 12:17:34 Still there are times it is usefull like a progn combination for finalizers 12:18:05 timor: programmers obviously, I don't expect users to mess with the code 12:19:18 younder: the progn combination for finalizers, to ensure that a missing call-next-method doesnt mess up something? 12:20:53 To avoid the need for call-next all-together 12:20:59 ok 12:21:11 timor: don't feed younder 12:21:27 cmm: ? 12:22:48 timor: you'll see (or not, if he gets banned again) 12:24:38 :) 12:25:18 -!- myrkraverk` [n=johann@85-220-125-230.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:26:47 -!- arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:30:22 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:30:31 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:31:05 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.0] has joined #lisp 12:31:38 -!- davazp [n=user@67.pool85-60-234.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:32:15 hmm, whats the best way to get delta t in lisp? I've been using (get-internal-real-time) / internal-time units, and - from the last update but it gives me 0.0 most of the time 12:33:01 davazp [n=user@67.pool85-60-234.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 12:34:04 malune: try not converting before computing the difference 12:35:49 resolution isn't large enough, maybe you can use some OS-depended stuff with nanoseconds 12:36:56 timor: just gives me 0 or 1 12:37:27 stassats`: mm... so there are no functions which can get me the nanoseconds? 12:37:50 malune: no portable 12:38:01 -!- cracki_ [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 12:38:08 if your code allows you could average over more time-slices 12:38:28 ahh, it says in the spec that get-internal-real-time is based on the clock though 12:38:36 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 12:38:44 timor: thats a good idea 12:39:35 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-87-37.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["night"] 12:41:07 Does Linux have a nanosecond based time granularity at all? 12:41:18 yes 12:41:35 there is nanosleep, and it works 12:41:41 hmm interesting, CMUCLs internal-time-units per second is 100, whereas SBCLs is 1000 12:42:35 you can also count cycles: sbcl has sb-vm::with-cycle-counter but i don't think it's very precise 12:43:36 stassats`: what do you mean by its not very precise? 12:43:45 arbscht [n=arbscht@unaffiliated/arbscht] has joined #lisp 12:44:42 it's docstring has "EXPERIMENTAL" 12:46:42 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:46:53 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:06 well, i think it accurately reflects the cpu cycle counter. 12:48:12 but it's new. 12:50:56 there's also get-internal-run-time 12:51:32 Yeah, I think that calculates the time your program is processing stuff though 12:53:15 gettimeofday might be available in your lisp 12:54:10 Xach: SBCL, doesn't look like it 12:54:33 Xach: just repled #'get-time-of-day #'gettimeofday 12:55:08 but sbcl has ffi 12:55:39 stassats`: yea, I could go down that route, I just wanted to see if I could do it with in built functions/macros first. 12:56:12 but it looks like if i use sb-vm::with-cycle-counter my code will be non-portable 12:56:41 insert (sleep (random 123)) and you will get different values 12:56:41 malune: and you would have to get the cpu-speed for times, i guess 12:57:08 -!- ejs [n=eugen@213-231-124-91.pool.ukrtel.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:57:23 timor: ye, i think its easier to just get system time from a low level cal 12:57:26 call* 12:57:53 then imagine speedstep stepping in 12:58:26 or the kernel-hacky cycle-skip on p4 cpus 12:59:40 malune: and what for do you need that delta-t calculation? 13:00:17 malune: high resolution time is not a portable capability in general 13:00:47 malune: and you should use apropos, not FUNCTION, for peeking around. 13:00:54 malune: sbcl has sb-unix:unix-gettimeofday 13:01:12 besiria [n=user@ppp083212084108.dsl.uom.gr] has joined #lisp 13:01:27 Xach: what? 13:02:13 kpreid: --script! 13:02:21 veritius [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 13:02:38 Xach: what abou tit? 13:02:50 veritius pasted "potensmangd" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68806 13:02:56 kpreid: maybe you could blog about it 13:03:16 I don't have any such ideas 13:03:30 unfortunately, at the moment, it is something I feel should exist, but diin't have a particular use for 13:03:39 I'm not writing any little lisp apps 13:03:42 ok 13:03:47 I've got a problem on what strategy to apply to this problem.. http://paste.lisp.org/display/68806. I want a function which takes the left part and gives the right part.. nm the numbers or the title, it's just my notes. 13:04:39 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:04:46 veritius: googling for power set lisp might help 13:05:07 (your problem is finding the power set of a set) 13:05:59 ah, ofc=) thx 13:11:09 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.131.138] has joined #lisp 13:12:18 -!- mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:15:29 -!- dlisboa [n=diogo@bd21a663.virtua.com.br] has left #lisp 13:18:14 veritius: It's not very complicated if you do it recursively. The base case is the empty set for which you return (()). The induction hypotheses lets you compute the powerset of the set minus the first element, e. Call this power set S. Return the union of S and S with every element having e added to it. 13:19:28 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:19:36 mikezor_ [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 13:19:55 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 13:20:50 -!- mikezor [n=mikael@c-a388e253.04-404-7570701.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 13:24:06 *Xach* wonders what on earth geenstijl.nl is (they linked to roflbot and it has brought a lot of visitors) 13:24:56 *Xach* does not read dutch :( 13:26:20 Isn't there a translator site that will give you some idea of what it is about? 13:27:07 *Xach* will try that 13:27:25 geenstijl probably means "unstylish" or even "tasteless". 13:30:55 -!- davazp [n=user@67.pool85-60-234.dynamic.orange.es] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:37:55 beach: thanks! 13:41:00 no problem 13:43:50 br1| [n=br1_@97.100.197.175] has joined #lisp 13:45:07 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 13:45:53 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 13:54:30 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:56:07 isomer`` [n=isomer@xplr-ts-t11-74-127-214-25.barrettxplore.com] has joined #lisp 14:00:58 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@221.219.123.44] has quit ["Leaving."] 14:07:43 mgr [n=mgr@psychonaut.psychlotron.de] has joined #lisp 14:08:18 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit ["The funniest things in my life are truth and absurdity."] 14:09:22 -!- isomer`` [n=isomer@xplr-ts-t11-74-127-214-25.barrettxplore.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:10:04 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.131.138] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:12:50 allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 14:17:01 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #lisp 14:17:02 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A17E9.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 14:26:41 x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 14:29:16 benny [n=benny@i577A2838.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 14:35:54 DanielRM [n=daniel@cpc1-grim8-0-0-cust625.nott.cable.ntl.com] has joined #lisp 14:37:11 toto` [n=user@102.29.100-84.rev.gaoland.net] has joined #lisp 14:37:13 hi 14:37:18 -!- toto` is now known as fork 14:37:35 hello fork 14:37:37 -!- fork is now known as hiteki 14:38:03 hi beach 14:42:21 I am truly a newb at Lisp. :( 14:42:47 It's a temporary condition. 14:43:01 I hope so. 14:45:10 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:46:20 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A2744A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:46:53 vasa [n=vasa@mm-50-185-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 14:58:20 -!- x6j8x_ [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 14:59:49 dalton [n=id@201-68-170-254.dsl.telesp.net.br] has joined #lisp 15:01:39 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:02:11 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 15:02:49 reaver___ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 15:03:40 lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:03:47 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:04:54 How can I read comma-separated values from a file to plug in to this function I wrote to find the mean? http://lisp.pastebin.com/d60e793a8 15:06:08 DanielRM: Why do you accumulate the sum in a global variable? 15:06:25 tcr: because I might need it in a later function. 15:07:05 DanielRM: http://www.cliki.net/fare-csv 15:08:00 DanielRM: Also, your iteration variables are not called N 15:08:12 kpreid: I thought a full library might be a bit OTT. 15:08:45 DanielRM: And there's no point in iterating through all the numbers given twice 15:08:57 tcr: I know. 15:09:06 ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has joined #lisp 15:09:25 tcr: at the moment the style is bad. That's not my problem, however. 15:09:59 It is in so far as I'm concerned about it. 15:10:31 tcr: but I can clean up the style by myself. 15:10:37 whoa... abcl got updated 15:10:41 anyone know why 15:10:56 DanielRM: That is a big problem, in fact! If you want other people to read your code, you need to first respect the way they expect it to be written before you can expect any comments on what it is actually doing. 15:10:59 DanielRM: Do it, then show it again. 15:12:15 I am surprised that so many people think that style is a matter of personal preference. 15:12:20 beach: I don't. 15:12:47 sohail: I know why :) 15:12:56 V-ille, please enlighten me 15:12:58 DanielRM: Lisp gives you great flexibility, and dozens of ways to write something; in many cases, only two, or three of all these possible way is what could be called idiomatic. So learning Lisp means very much to learn idiomacy. 15:13:13 sohail: Well, we did some bug fixes, so there's a new release. 15:13:17 DanielRM: Then start by not using global variables, and returning a value instead. Also clean up things like (setf n (+ n 1)) and (setf *sum* (+ *sum* value)) 15:13:21 beach: but I am concerned that when the problem is simply a matter of how to read a list of numbers from a file and pass them to a function the response from one Lisper is to criticise the style. 15:13:27 The question is a bit odd IMHO 15:13:36 It's not like abcl was perfect before. 15:13:57 -!- dalton [n=id@201-68-170-254.dsl.telesp.net.br] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:14:05 DanielRM: That should come as no surprise to you, no matter what programming language it is. 15:14:09 V-ille, cool! I asked b/c I (obviously incorrectly) thought it was dead. What were the changes? Is the "performance" issue resolved by any chance? 15:14:28 sohail: If you mean the java 1.6 performance issue, that's solved 15:14:30 Use SUBSTITUTE to replace the commas wit spaces and then read te values in a loop. 15:14:35 CLOS is not yet in shape 15:14:38 V-ille, awesome! what was the cause? 15:14:46 beach: generally Lispers seem nicer than other programmers, so it is something of a surprise. 15:14:48 sohail: Something in the jdk itself 15:14:51 V-ille, is there a email thread about the perf fix? 15:14:51 sun fixed it 15:14:52 milanj [n=milan@79.101.250.193] has joined #lisp 15:14:52 DanielRM: At the moment, it seems like you can't even write a function that computes the mean of a list of numbers. I'm trying to help you get your basics right. 15:14:58 V-ille, no way. Nice work man! 15:14:58 V-ille, ah 15:15:08 tcr: except it does. It does so very inelegantly, but it works. 15:15:14 dmiles: this was essentially fixed with jdk1.6.0_10 15:15:19 DanielRM: it has absolutely nothing to do with being nice, but with respecting conventions out of politeness to the people that you expect to read your code. 15:15:25 DanielRM: No, it doesn't. 15:15:43 Before that release, the JVM had problems with a lot of little objects that ABCL creates. 15:16:19 eek 15:16:49 http://code.google.com/p/abcl-dynamic-install/wiki/Performance goes into it a bit. 15:16:50 right now i am creating a new Throwable() on all Obperators in abcl, i am trying to track there creations 15:16:52 e271, what kind of problems? A link would be more time saving for you 15:17:15 slyrus: blog down! 15:17:22 -!- alpertekinalp [n=alper@88.249.167.182] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:17:25 their creations, it seems even w/o gerneating .abcl/.cls files its still bytecode engieering 15:17:26 We are working on getting more documentation together. 15:17:59 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:18:29 so this stack traceinfo i creating sure slowing ABCL down ;P 15:18:53 tcr: this better? http://lisp.pastebin.com/dad380ee 15:19:10 thanks e271 15:19:20 tcr: the old version worked when I tried it. 15:19:51 DanielRM: No, it's still wrong. Unless NUMBER is in fact a global variable, too. 15:19:51 nasty 15:20:40 tcr: how can I correct it? 15:21:01 DanielRM: You can establish local variables by LET. 15:21:23 DanielRM: Do you read some book to learn Lisp from? 15:21:39 tcr: I've read a little of PCL but not in a while now. 15:21:51 gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-14-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:22:35 birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has joined #lisp 15:22:37 I'd suggest reading it from chapter 1 to its last chapter. Asking question wrt understanding of the material presented there if you have any. 15:22:59 DanielRM: To sum the elements of a list, try using REDUCE. 15:23:04 clhs reduce 15:23:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_reduce.htm 15:23:14 DanielRM: to compute the length of a list, use LENGTH 15:23:17 clhs length 15:23:17 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_length.htm 15:23:35 beach: thank you. 15:23:43 DanielRM: and start returning values from functions as opposed to using global variables for side effects. 15:23:55 DanielRM: You'll then have acquired enough basic knowledge so we can actually provide help. 15:24:43 sohail: btw, ehu did most of the work wrt the ansi-test conformance work that is part of the new abcl release 15:25:06 most as in all of it, practically :) 15:25:06 hmm, can anyone suggest a getopt-type thing for lisp? not necessarily a straight port, but something that does a similar thing in a lispy way? 15:25:07 tcr: What I find good about #lisp is that there is some consitency in the advice. I am currently having a period at work, where my colleagues are not saying the same things to my students that I do, and I find it very frustrating. 15:25:38 Xach, there are several such tools in Scheme; one of them is a SRFI whose number I forget, somewhere in the thirties. 15:25:47 e271 did some nice changes to our ant build 15:25:55 Riastradh: ok, thanks. 15:26:08 current abcl builds without an existing lisp environment if you have ant 15:26:16 Xach: I've come across such a library for CL. I can't remember details, though. 15:26:35 *Xach* might NIH-ily make an argv-bind type thing 15:26:55 Riastradh: 37 looks promising. i'll check i tout. 15:27:01 V-ille, i noticed when i build abcl with clisp it pretty much doesnt use any the the clips right? 15:27:11 Nihilist! 15:27:19 heh 15:27:27 dmiles: clips? 15:27:32 clips/clisp 15:27:44 -!- eno__ [n=eno@adsl-70-137-168-121.dsl.snfc21.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["leaving"] 15:27:45 V-ille, i mean for the longer part of the build of the .cls files.. its not using clisp right? 15:27:47 It doesn't need much from the host lisp, yeah 15:28:02 it just controls the build 15:28:09 dmiles: correct. The Host lisp is basically just used to invoke thatjavac and packaging utilities. 15:28:22 that's why it was not a big thing to make it almost self-hosting with ant 15:29:45 does both ant and the host-lisp build dump the .abcl files to the same place? 15:29:53 yes, I think so 15:30:02 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 15:30:03 you can choose the one you prefer 15:30:24 -!- araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has quit [Success] 15:30:29 V-ille, I'm sure it is a team effort. Great job by everyone! 15:30:38 Xach, hmm, SRFI 37 looks a bit inflexible to me. I think I'd rather an-NIH-ilate it myself. 15:31:06 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 15:31:15 i build from eclipse mayself.. replacating what the 'ant' does .. but noticed after abcl-comnpile.lisp i had .cls files int eh the src dir.. i dont mind that thoiugh 15:31:17 sohail: we also have a javax.scripting support coming together, so you can use abcl instead of javascript or other crappy languages for scripting java apps :) 15:31:25 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 15:31:27 that's not yet part of the release 15:31:36 V-ille, \o/ 15:31:48 dmiles: well, now you can use the ant build from eclipse 15:31:54 tcr, beach: is this stylistically better? http://lisp.pastebin.com/d19815ea 15:31:59 jlf` [n=user@adsl-99-165-90-112.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:07 V-ille, true enough 15:32:08 dmiles: or from Netbeans. 15:32:31 DanielRM: much better! Now remove the (zero-vars) and you are done. 15:32:40 beach: oh, yes. Forgot about that. 15:32:53 minion: tell DanielRM about lisppaste 15:32:54 To use the lisppaste bot, visit http://paste.lisp.org/new/lisp and enter your paste. 15:33:21 DanielRM: See, you have learned a lot of stuff here today! 15:33:26 i am working really hard at turning the LispObject to an interface, after the .cls/.abdcl files are built.. i run a class transformer to try to trn the invokevoirtuals to invokeinterface 15:33:35 DanielRM: Returning values from a function via global variable is particularly icky in Lisp because you can in fact return multiple values from one function in Common Lisp. 15:33:43 -!- zu22 [n=ubuntu@unaffiliated/zu22] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:33:46 DanielRM pasted "Function to find the mean of its arguments" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68809 15:34:10 DanielRM: Congratulations! 15:34:23 beach: heh. 15:34:25 on an the invokespecials redirecting to ALispObject.class 15:34:34 Xach, PLT's utility for command-line parsing looks somewhat more palatable to me: 15:34:37 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:34:51 mejja [n=user@c-7d2472d5.023-82-73746f38.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has joined #lisp 15:35:18 DanielRM: It's still buggy. You can call (mean) and it'll result in a division-by-zero error. 15:35:57 syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:35:59 silenius [n=jl@e178045168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 15:36:02 tcr: do you have a better definition for the average of zero numbers? 15:36:18 tcr: is there a more elegant way to solve that than simply specifying a default list of arguments? 15:36:40 DanielRM: I think your definition is right as it is. 15:37:08 beach: I'd agree, but there should probably be some error-handling code in there. 15:37:27 DanielRM: Failure to compute a result is not always a bug. In particular when there is no reasonable definition of what the result might be. 15:38:28 DanielRM: you might handle an error, depending on whether the function can be called directly by UI code or not, or you can just specify that calling it with zero arguments is not valid, in which case client code that does that would be at fault. 15:38:47 beach: I'm not sure. If an error was intended, I'd perhaps rather put an explicit ASSERT in there to make the reader aware that this issue has been deliberately taken into account. 15:39:29 tcr: that's always an option, yes. 15:40:43 So I should put in error-handling code? 15:41:33 only if you know how to handle the errors in question 15:41:47 DanielRM: "error handling" is a strong word. As tcr says, you might want to document that calling it with zero arguments will fail by putting (assert (plusp (length numbers))) or something similar in there. 15:41:51 otherwise you'd be doing your debugger a huge disservice 15:41:57 jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has joined #lisp 15:44:30 DanielRM: What cmm said! Failure to compute something is in itself is not a problem. Trying to patch it up and return something else might hide subtle bugs. 15:45:48 CL itself is full of cases where doing something against the rules results in "undefined consequences", not necessarily errors 15:45:48 OK. 15:46:24 *beach* thinks that DanielRM learned a lot more today than he expected. 15:46:37 beach: and got a massive headache in the process. :P 15:46:47 and no one told him any contradictory things, either. 15:46:59 Amazing! 15:47:07 some of those things (nay, most) are applicable not just to Lisp, so it's all good :) 15:47:19 Indeed! 15:47:32 DanielRM annotated #68809 with "Assertion added" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68809#1 15:48:11 DanielRM: Excellent! I couldn't have done it better myself! 15:48:24 beach: you did it yourself. :S 15:48:35 I wasn't going to mention that :) 15:48:39 beach: heh. 15:49:04 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@c-75-68-104-47.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 15:49:37 -!- xbxbxb [n=xb@p54A9C59B.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 15:49:40 "#lisp: come here on Sundays" 15:50:18 cmm: It could be better than what some people do on Sundays. 15:50:40 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 15:50:45 DanielRM: The nice thing about CL's assert is that you can specify the error message: (assert (plusp (length numbers)) (numbers) "You can't get the mean of an empty set") 15:51:05 tcr: ooh, nice. 15:51:15 tcr: much better for debugging than comments. 15:51:21 tcr: thanks. 15:51:21 *cmm* is still intimidated by CL:ASSERT's feature set 15:51:43 Yeah, I noticed how scary CL:ASSERT was recently. 15:51:53 As in, a couple weeks ago. 15:51:59 DanielRM: tcr is right, and so is cmm, but we'll tell you more about that some other time, or your headache will get *much* worse! 15:52:27 -!- futuresoon [n=Xeones@cpe-66-108-46-57.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 15:53:30 Also, why did I call it an empty set? 15:53:36 There's only one empty set. 15:54:06 I was just thinking about how .NET and the work on the DLR could undermine common lisp 15:54:20 DanielRM annotated #68809 with "Let's make this assert nicer" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68809#2 15:55:30 manic12: doesn't look like there's anything much to undermine. plus there's the thing about the most sincere form of flattery :) 15:55:32 DanielRM: Impressive! But more impressive, is that you now understand that "elegance is not optional". 15:56:00 manic12 how is that possible 15:56:12 beach: I only ever considered it optional during the initial development phase. But perhaps making it elegant from the start is a better method, yes. 15:56:38 it would be kinda a sucky version of what you can do with lisp, but more popular via microsoft 15:56:38 you have f# and the usual suspects there but they are far away from cl 15:56:39 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 15:56:40 beach: my usual development cycle consists of ugly broken code, ugly working code, make ugly code elegant. 15:57:25 DanielRM: While you *could* do that, you still want to respect conventions even in your first version, especially if you want to show it to someone else. 15:57:26 *manic12* googles f# 15:58:17 yes, because being tied to a single platform is TERRIBLY popular 15:58:29 Java's more of a risk, but really, does it matter? 15:58:37 borism_ [n=boris@195-50-205-146-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has joined #lisp 15:58:43 .NET is spreading beyond microsoft 15:58:52 nah 15:59:30 .net is pretty much tied with microsoft 15:59:44 DanielRM: Sure. And Lisp makes this way particularly convenient, because it doesn't enforce many restrictions. But your initial function wasn't merely inelegant, it was showing that you still lack even basic knowledge how to write Lisp. Hence my appeal to read through all of PCL. 16:00:05 especially a platforjm which is showing real signs of dying 16:00:12 xristos, yes, that means microsoft is beginning to invade linux 16:00:33 what do you mean 16:00:34 and .NET itself never really took off, did it? 16:00:42 outside the weird world of corporate webapps 16:00:44 are you kidding? 16:00:55 .net locks you into microsoft infrastructure 16:00:55 could we, like, try not going there? guys? 16:01:21 i'm comparing .net to common lisp 16:02:05 my company is looking at porting their CNC software to .NET 16:02:29 my condolences 16:02:39 :P 16:02:46 tcr: how do you define basic? 16:03:11 Be back soon. 16:03:31 thanks xach! 16:04:11 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Connection timed out] 16:04:19 xristos, what are you up to lately? 16:05:17 working on my phd 16:05:23 dont have much time 16:05:47 -!- gonzojive [n=red@c-24-5-14-234.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [] 16:05:47 what is the subject of your thesis? 16:05:50 -!- borism [n=boris@195-50-199-195-dsl.krw.estpak.ee] has quit [Read error: 145 (Connection timed out)] 16:06:36 DanielRM: That is hard to define. You will recognize it once you become more experienced. 16:07:11 manic12 end-user profiling using physiological signals 16:07:44 there was a an interesting post about the possibility of porting Allegro to .NET by a franz guy a few years back, but I can't find it now 16:08:24 what about porting .NET to allegro, wouldn't that be easier? 16:08:49 ah: http://groups.google.com/group/comp.lang.lisp/msg/2b11ecfdc4a15fb4 16:09:05 there is at least one .NET interface for CL 16:09:22 xristos, like heart rate, eye movement, er what? 16:10:15 yeah 16:10:28 skin resistance mainly 16:10:41 Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 16:10:52 hm. i do not see the tree in the forrest. i would like to do sth like (multiple-value-bind (x y z) (list 1 2 3)). the values for x y z are in a list and i would like to bind them to x y z. i am sure it is simple (till now i do it via (let ((x (first .....)))). could someone point me to a direction? 16:11:11 -!- Jarvellis [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:11:14 trebor_home: destructuring-bind 16:11:18 Jarvellis [n=Jarv@dsl-217-155-101-22.zen.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:11:33 Athas: hey, what's up? 16:11:36 xristos: and what is the goal of the profiling? (If you don't mind me asking) 16:12:12 generate compressed signatures (profiles) that characterize a persons experience 16:12:26 kpreid: thank you (reading it on hyperspec now) 16:12:48 for identification? 16:13:17 various applications 16:13:33 identification one of them? 16:13:48 could be but not in my plan 16:13:56 *sykopomp* gives manic12 a tinfoil hat 16:14:01 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 16:14:49 kpreid: works, thanks. 16:15:11 rsynnott: a lot of technology has changed since that post 16:15:28 (or been added to) 16:16:14 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:16:48 comawhite [n=Jeff@nickweinhold.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 16:17:55 I can't imagine anyone wasting the money to port to an unpopular platform which only really works on one operating system 16:18:07 JVM would be saner 16:18:22 mono runs on several platforms 16:18:53 please 16:18:53 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:18:55 stop saying mono 16:19:07 daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 16:19:11 jvm is a better idea. lots more money behind it 16:19:12 and (not defending microsoft) but by who's definition is it unpopular? 16:19:16 you lose a lot of benefits by orking with mono 16:19:34 (jvm vs mono, I mean) 16:19:35 compared to .net on windows 16:20:16 true, more money behind jvm than mono 16:20:19 .net seems pretty popular to me, with the windows dev crowd. I've seen listings all over the place for .net devs, specially C# 16:20:43 whot .. hm .. mono vs. .net == firefox vs. ie .. same "war" or "collaboration" .. as long as .net itself doesn't run on linux out-of-the-box, via ms, like jvm runs out-of-the-box , via sun .. it's the same thing - different wrapping imho 16:21:43 seems like i'm always having to install a jvm or .net framework 16:21:45 lnostdal mono is behind microsoft's implementation 16:22:07 also their ide is way inferio to visual studio 16:22:09 xristos, even if it was infront (like firefox is infront of ie) it wouldn't matter 16:22:22 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 16:22:33 I'm sorry, I was looking for #lisp. Can someone point me in the right direction? 16:22:38 :D 16:23:07 sellout: I think it's semi-relevant, since there was apparently talk of porting lisp to .net. Hence the discussion. 16:23:08 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:23:13 probably not relevant enough, thoug.h 16:23:33 sykopomp: Nah, I'm just teasing. 16:23:38 Let me join in ... 16:23:40 LLVM 16:24:13 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 16:24:18 beach: not much, just schoolwork. 16:24:56 i just can't think of anything to work on today that wouldn't take me weeks 16:25:01 .net seems popular in the weird little world of corporate in-house development 16:25:09 though not as popular as yava 16:25:18 sellout: ah, now there's an idea 16:25:35 Athas: Too bad! (the "just" part!) :) 16:25:37 rsynnott: yeah, that's where I see a lot of stuff about C# 16:25:40 but there seem to be few to no real-world apps 16:25:56 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:26:05 and, with respect, microsoft is dying. Slowly; it has a long way to fall, but it is in a bad way right now 16:26:10 I have seen some addins to applications in C# that were pretty impressive 16:26:19 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 16:26:39 rsynnott: .net may outlive microsoft 16:27:01 rme [n=rme@12.191.171.59] has joined #lisp 16:29:02 does anyone else have the problem of tab-completion freezing emacs for a few seconds on occasion? 16:29:44 schasi [n=schasi@p54A2744A.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:29:47 gonzojive: with a remote swank? 16:29:54 Back. 16:29:59 it has to ask swank what indentation to do for some stuff 16:30:02 so that might be it 16:30:38 dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:30:55 rsynnott: nope, a local swank. SBCL also sucks up a lot of CPU while it is frozen 16:31:04 single-thread sbcl? 16:31:21 in sbcl, *gc-pending* triggers interrupt, which calls back to lisp which calls find-interrupted-frame which calls gethash3 which uses without-gcing which triggers another interrupt.. and so on 16:31:28 (though, actually, even if it was, that wouldn't make THAT much sense) 16:32:04 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 16:33:00 Hexstream [n=hexstrea@modemcable240.109-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 16:33:25 What would you call the complement of macroexpansion? macrocontraction? 16:33:27 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:33:47 you could :) 16:33:51 macro writing? 16:33:56 Hexstream: you could call it that, but it is not an established term. 16:34:00 in what context do you wish to use such an odd term? 16:34:06 well 16:34:34 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:34:47 I'm making a configuration management library where you can write (non turing-complete) macro descriptions, and from that a macroexpansion function and macrocontraction function are generated 16:34:55 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:35:00 -!- comawhite [n=Jeff@nickweinhold.demon.co.uk] has left #lisp 16:35:29 macroexpansion is done pretty normally, and "macrocontraction" will work by pattern-matching 16:35:46 jeddhaberstro [n=jeddhabe@65-37-37-12.nrp4.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:02 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Client Quit] 16:36:06 Hexstream: why not! 16:36:08 ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has joined #lisp 16:36:20 So there's no established term for that? 16:36:21 kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 16:36:57 I musn't be the first one to think about contracting a macroexpansion back into its original form... 16:37:13 that's a weaker form of decompiling 16:37:17 which is `nontrivial' 16:37:46 Hexstream: what does a "configuration management library" do? 16:37:56 well 16:38:08 I guess I should write a file with my ideas 16:38:19 My vision is much bigger than my implementation for now. 16:39:01 Hexstream: Be sure to share it! 16:39:19 Will do! 16:42:32 -!- dagnachew [n=dagnache@modemcable207.114-201-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving"] 16:42:32 Leonidas [n=Leonidas@unaffiliated/leonidas] has joined #lisp 16:42:50 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 16:42:57 Dinner! I'll be back later. 16:49:47 -!- younder [i=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 16:50:42 -!- jlf` [n=user@adsl-99-165-90-112.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:50:53 -!- ignas [n=ignas@ctv-79-132-160-221.vinita.lt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:51:06 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 16:55:25 -!- kgn [n=kglovern@CPE001b11e68946-CM0014f8ca15f0.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 16:59:13 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-249-086.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:59:55 Hexstream: I know at least one person who worked on automatically introducing higher-order functions in an existing codebase that way. He didn't do macros because the goal was to reduce the size of object code, but I expect it'd be easier with macros (if one wants to abstract out similar constructs... macros can do much more complex stuff) 17:00:31 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:01:11 I'm doing something much, much easier ;P 17:01:58 -!- jeddhaberstro [n=jeddhabe@65-37-37-12.nrp4.roc.ny.frontiernet.net] has quit [] 17:05:02 nostoi [n=nostoi@78.Red-83-54-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 17:06:06 LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has joined #lisp 17:06:19 -!- Jarvellis is now known as Stateless 17:07:05 -!- reaver___ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit ["Trillian (http://www.ceruleanstudios.com"] 17:07:22 Hexstream pasted "Example of flexiconf macro declaration" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68817 17:07:39 seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45E38.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:10:26 -!- veritius [n=mor_och_@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has left #lisp 17:15:06 ikki [n=ikki@189.139.96.127] has joined #lisp 17:16:14 -!- br1| [n=br1_@97.100.197.175] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 17:16:57 -!- allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:17:07 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-50-185-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:17:19 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:17:55 vasa [n=vasa@mm-219-188-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has joined #lisp 17:20:04 chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-76-152.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has joined #lisp 17:20:12 -!- mib_w8v3835n [i=7bddcc68@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-55804b8a0d9fb47c] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 17:20:23 dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 17:21:38 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-30-215.kosnet.ru] has quit ["(_ 0 V 3"] 17:24:14 rme_ [n=rme@12.191.171.59] has joined #lisp 17:24:14 -!- rme [n=rme@12.191.171.59] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:32:15 -!- BrianRice [n=water@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 17:32:45 BrianRice [n=water@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 17:34:20 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 17:37:13 dragonlord222 [n=dragonlo@212-182-141-130.ip.telfort.nl] has joined #lisp 17:39:06 l_a_m_ [n=l_a_m@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:43:26 -!- dboswell [n=dave@208.177.146.111.ptr.us.xo.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 17:43:29 -!- dragonlord222 [n=dragonlo@212-182-141-130.ip.telfort.nl] has left #lisp 17:44:23 dboswell [n=dave@208.177.146.111.ptr.us.xo.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:09 Vratha [n=grimw@ool-4356a22c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:45:15 cmo-0 [n=user@auh-as31515.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #lisp 17:45:16 -!- Vratha [n=grimw@ool-4356a22c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Client Quit] 17:45:31 Vratha [n=grimw@ool-4356a22c.dyn.optonline.net] has joined #lisp 17:47:07 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 17:47:57 i have a problem "c-string decoding error (:external-format :UTF-8): the octet sequence 2 cannot be decoded." in clsql-sqlite3 using sbcl 1.0.20.17, i've tried to google but without luck. 17:48:35 any clues? i've also to remove all fasl files and load all systems again, without luck. 17:49:32 are you sure it's UTF8 data you're reading? 17:50:43 i only did (clsql-sys:query "SELECT * FROM EMPLOYEES LIMIT 3"). without specifing any encodings! 17:50:44 17:53:08 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46A59.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 17:54:34 but, there is another place where i'm specifing utf8, but that was in hunchentoot, not clsql 17:55:52 emarsden [n=user@mir31-3-82-234-52-44.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 17:59:15 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:59:26 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 17:59:50 emarsden: Long time no see! What's up? 18:00:09 la_mer [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 18:02:19 ianmcorvidae|alt [n=ianmcorv@student166-32.hampshire.edu] has joined #lisp 18:02:42 McCarthy is having severe health issues? :-/\ 18:02:56 luis: URL? 18:03:04 planet lisp 18:03:43 luis: thanks! 18:03:59 Is Xach here? 18:07:28 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45E38.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:08:09 I hadn't quite realized how much Lisp-related stuff had taken over OOPSLA. 18:08:16 oh, THAT mccarthy 18:08:22 I was thinking evil senator 18:08:46 rsynnott: you must not be a real Lisper! 18:09:18 or a communist 18:09:20 beach: would Xach mind me using some code that he pasted on the Pastebin if I gave attribution, do you think? 18:09:31 Cel [n=Cel@d54C53B58.access.telenet.be] has joined #lisp 18:09:35 -!- mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-091-060.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:09:43 DanielRM: probably not, no. 18:09:52 Hexstream pasted "Horrible half-explanation of what flexiconf is supposed to become." at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68819 18:10:05 beach: it seems perfectly suited to my problem of reading the data from the file. 18:10:09 DanielRM: but he's very active, so you can leave him a memo via minion and expect an answer in at most a couple hours. 18:10:12 I'm a group he targetted, though not a communist 18:10:17 but yep, silly brain 18:11:23 phadthai: thanks. I didn't know minion could do memos. 18:11:27 Gah. 18:11:43 s/phadthai/pkhuong 18:11:48 DanielRM: this is the way to do it: 18:12:07 beach: I just msged minion to tell me. 18:12:07 minion: memo for DanielRM: this is the way to do it. 18:12:08 Remembered. I'll tell DanielRM when he/she/it next speaks. 18:12:18 beach: but thanks anyway. :) 18:12:18 DanielRM, memo from beach: this is the way to do it. 18:12:27 DanielRM: no problem 18:12:34 It's a very sophisticated bot. :-/ 18:12:41 -!- silenius [n=jl@e178045168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:12:42 "Whilst not being asdf installable isnt a huge barrier to entry it suggests something (perhaps wrongly) about the quality of the solution. So I skipped it." 18:12:50 DanielRM: and very opinionated as well. 18:13:01 silenius [n=jl@e178045168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 18:13:12 i wonder if this is a common opinion among the lisp masses 18:13:28 drewc: possibly 18:13:35 minion: memo for Xach: I wonder whether you're bothered if I use code you've pasted on the pastebin before if I give you attribution? 18:13:35 Remembered. I'll tell Xach when he/she/it next speaks. 18:13:42 it's still one of the handier ways to grab libraries from sbcl or ccl 18:13:54 *rsynnott* hasn't tried clbuild yet, and I doubt I'm alone in that 18:14:03 *DanielRM* wonders how sophisticated the bot really is... 18:14:06 minion: thanks. 18:14:06 np 18:14:12 Argh! 18:14:12 heheh 18:14:22 Too clever! 18:14:44 minion: what are you written in? 18:14:45 i'm written in common lisp 18:14:50 I knew it! 18:14:50 minion: are you a bot? 18:14:50 i'm not a bot. i prefer the term ``electronically composed''. 18:15:02 minion: I love you. 18:15:02 Would you /please/ stop playing with me? 3 messages in 17 seconds is too many. 18:15:11 Heh, OK. 18:15:19 -!- ianmcorvidae [n=ianmcorv@fsf/member/ianmcorvidae] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:15:21 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:15:40 #ubuntu-uk's bot relies on other people bringing up its bot abuse factoid. 18:15:56 Which rather seems to defeat the point. XD 18:16:00 NoorDextor_ [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 18:17:21 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 18:18:10 rsynnott: i have not used asdf-install in years personally... i wonder if i'm out of touch with the common man! :) 18:18:20 -!- LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has quit [No route to host] 18:18:26 ^Luth_ [n=anircuse@host211-6-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has joined #lisp 18:18:33 -!- NoorDextor_ [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has left #lisp 18:18:54 rpg_laptop [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 18:19:21 -!- silenius [n=jl@e178045168.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:19:21 it's terribly handy for things with lots of dependencies, though 18:19:54 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-084-144.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 18:20:15 i wrote my own solution based on cl-librarian that i used for a couple years before moving on to clbuild + rsync 18:20:49 (i have one /lisp/libs tree that i replicate everywhere) 18:21:02 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 18:21:13 -!- ^Luth_ [n=anircuse@host211-6-dynamic.7-87-r.retail.telecomitalia.it] has quit [Client Quit] 18:23:03 fauzi [n=fauzi@244.227.48.60.cbj02-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 18:25:06 -!- fauzi [n=fauzi@244.227.48.60.cbj02-home.tm.net.my] has quit [] 18:30:10 ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-37948353e6db61b8] has joined #lisp 18:30:20 oops, loading slime with abcl is causing the jvm (1.6.0_07) to seg fault 18:30:21 -!- rme_ [n=rme@12.191.171.59] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:31:01 rme [n=rme@12.191.171.59] has joined #lisp 18:32:07 evening 18:33:43 blitz_ [n=blitz@89-186-143-184.dynamic.primacom.net] has joined #lisp 18:33:47 -!- Hexstream [n=hexstrea@modemcable240.109-202-24.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 18:35:48 sohail: iirc, it doesn't work too well with 1.6 18:36:16 rsynnott, yeah but as far as I know that was a performance issue no? 18:38:05 wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has joined #lisp 18:43:29 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 18:44:49 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 18:45:30 -!- wedgeV [n=wedge@cm56-238-229.liwest.at] has quit [] 18:47:26 -!- l_a_m_ [n=l_a_m@aqu33-5-82-245-96-5.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:47:45 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit [Client Quit] 18:47:52 -!- Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has quit ["You call this global warming? Wait until my fleet arrives..."] 18:50:38 -!- Vratha [n=grimw@ool-4356a22c.dyn.optonline.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:53:45 rme_ [n=rme@12.191.171.59] has joined #lisp 18:53:45 -!- rme [n=rme@12.191.171.59] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:54:50 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@auh-as31515.alshamil.net.ae] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:57:36 xbxb [n=xb@p54ABD6A9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:02:36 -!- rme_ [n=rme@12.191.171.59] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:02:49 rme [n=rme@12.191.171.59] has joined #lisp 19:02:56 younder [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 19:03:39 jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 19:04:12 -!- xbxb [n=xb@p54ABD6A9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:05:35 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has left #lisp 19:09:45 -!- Athas [n=athas@0x50a157d6.alb2nxx15.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:09:59 bavardage [n=bavardag@87.113.95.170.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:05 how do I find the dimensions of an array 19:10:14 -!- nostoi [n=nostoi@78.Red-83-54-12.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 19:10:24 nm got it 19:11:22 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has quit [] 19:11:29 fridim_ [n=fridim@val13-1-82-232-122-245.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:11:58 the OpenJDK 64-Bit Server VM (build 1.6.0_0-b12, mixed mode) much more stabler than the one 3 months ago 19:12:45 the one from 6 months ago crashed 5% of the time 3 months ago 40% of the time.. now 0% of the time 19:13:09 to sohail 19:14:14 dmiles, thank you 19:14:19 in the process of figuring out java-package 19:15:47 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 19:16:13 xbxb [n=xb@p54ABD6A9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:16:25 (define-opcode invokevirtual 182 3 nil)(define-opcode invokespecial 183 3 nil)(define-opcode invokestatic 184 3 nil)(define-opcode invokeinterface 185 5 nil) <- is that 5 correct? 19:17:37 -!- nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:18:13 nowhere_man [i=pierre@pthierry.pck.nerim.net] has joined #lisp 19:18:15 askedrlc [i=askedrlc@fury.csh.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 19:19:08 in T:\development\mirrors\ABCL-SVN\j\src\org\armedbear\lisp\opcodes.lisp 19:20:20 -!- askedrlc [i=askedrlc@fury.csh.rit.edu] has left #lisp 19:21:47 dmiles: It is correct, invokeinterface is 185 19:21:48 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 19:22:34 V-ille, but the 5 part.. that represents operands? 19:23:10 dmiles: I'm not sure, I'm not that familiar with abcl bytecode-generation. 19:23:17 ..or with jvm bytecode itself. 19:24:10 cmo-0 [n=user@auh-as31515.alshamil.net.ae] has joined #lisp 19:24:21 i am changing some parts to use invokeinterface instead of invokevirtual.. currently invokeinterface is never used 19:25:29 -!- rme [n=rme@12.191.171.59] has quit [] 19:27:34 now i'm a little closer to get my app running. the data in the sqlite3 store is not in utf8 encoding. thus when i tried to query the db, i got an error saying that it can not convert a certain letters. can any body help me to know how to switch the encoding for clsql? i've searched the pdf doc, without luck. (sbcl 1.0.20.17 on ubuntu 8.04) 19:27:57 wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 19:29:54 -!- xbxb [n=xb@p54ABD6A9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:31:00 netaust1n [n=austinsm@64.241.37.140] has joined #lisp 19:31:11 -!- Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:31:18 Patzy [n=somethin@coa29-1-88-174-11-170.fbx.proxad.net] has joined #lisp 19:32:23 -!- bavardage [n=bavardag@87.113.95.170.plusnet.pte-ag2.dyn.plus.net] has left #lisp 19:32:27 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:32:31 -!- besiria [n=user@ppp083212084108.dsl.uom.gr] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:33:39 V-ille, ok that 5 is correct, its the same as the others + count + 0 19:35:47 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:36:06 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E4549D.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 19:36:16 drewc: i saw that and arghed too 19:36:16 Xach, memo from DanielRM: I wonder whether you're bothered if I use code you've pasted on the pastebin before if I give you attribution? 19:36:23 DanielRM: which? 19:36:56 Xach: http://paste.lisp.org/display/5461#4 19:38:11 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:38:20 DanielRM: that's a thing i learned from rob warnock 19:39:34 isn't that KMP's stream-as-eof-marker trick? 19:39:38 Xach: rpw3? 19:40:26 isomer`` [n=isomer@xplr-ts-t11-74-127-214-25.barrettxplore.com] has joined #lisp 19:40:32 anyway, with series, it's (collect (scan-file file)), which is not easy to beat ;) 19:40:54 -!- ramus` [n=ramus@adsl-75-34-3-115.dsl.chcgil.sbcglobal.net] has left #lisp 19:41:34 michaelw: probably...i first saw it via rob warnock 19:44:36 Given all this could I be forgiven for assuming it's something which is basically public domain now, much the same as a hello world program would be? 19:45:07 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has quit ["Where is the glory in complying with demands?"] 19:46:01 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has quit [] 19:46:02 sorry, no...those older chumps forgot to patent it, like i did. 19:46:08 i can license it at reasonable terms though. 19:46:45 Heh. 19:46:50 Well, not really. It's an idea I think many people use when appropriate. 19:46:53 Only $999.99/s! 19:47:17 -!- la_mer [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 19:47:51 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has joined #lisp 19:48:32 Meh, I'll attribute "whoever first came up with the idea". 19:53:28 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46A59.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:53:56 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 19:54:59 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 19:55:58 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2E7B4.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 19:56:09 kuwabara1 [i=513969a4@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-556094d800dbd6d7] has joined #lisp 19:57:30 I've installed emacs+clisp+slime on windows. But my experience is of lower quality than what I see in marco's video. Is it because clisp doesn't have all the features ? 19:57:34 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 19:57:42 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.96.127] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:59:15 kuwabara1: some features are not up to par. what did you have in mind specifically? 19:59:33 for example, I can select a value as an object reference in the repl. another example: when a type "c-c c-d d" on defpackage, I get 24 line of nonsense instead of a nice description of its options. 19:59:39 i canT 19:59:47 *jao* misses M-. in slime/clisp sorely 19:59:49 dkcl [n=dan@99.67.218.87.dynamic.jazztel.es] has joined #lisp 19:59:59 kuwabara1: the presentation feature has moved into a contrib 20:00:45 Xach: oh, so I should install it separately ? 20:00:51 The output of c-d c-d d is implementation dependent. 20:01:26 -!- fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-1.dynamic.ngi.it] has quit ["Valete!"] 20:01:32 kuwabara1: it's a small change to your ~/.emacs lines 20:02:23 -!- dkcl [n=dan@unaffiliated/dkcl] has quit [Client Quit] 20:02:50 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEADCEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 20:02:51 -!- nyef [n=nyef@pool-70-20-50-169.man.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Shutting down for a bit."] 20:03:11 slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEADCEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:03:18 Xach: great, so I only have to specify that I want a nice output ? How do I do that ? [And why isn't it set by default...] 20:05:44 kuwabara1: "presentations" are the click-objects-in-the-repl feature 20:06:43 does anyone know why FIND-SOURCE-LOCATION is not implemented in swank-clisp? is it because clisp does not provide a way to access this information? 20:07:13 Xaxh: ok 20:07:18 Xach: ok 20:07:26 kuwabara1: put (slime-setup '(slime-presentations ...)) in .emacs 20:08:04 So I tried changing some stuff in clbuilds wpnn-projects cl-opengl get_svn => cl-opengl get_darcs http://www.common-lisp.net/project/cl-opengl/darcs/cl-opengl .. but there seems to be more to it? 20:09:39 -!- rpg_laptop [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:10:07 rpg_laptop [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 20:13:20 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 20:13:31 -!- schasi [n=schasi@p54A2744A.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Verlassend"] 20:13:55 hugo_ [n=hugo@89.181.119.183] has joined #lisp 20:14:15 -!- cmo-0 [n=user@auh-as31515.alshamil.net.ae] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:14:34 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:14:43 ___ [n=reed@adsl-1-207-31.bna.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 20:16:36 -!- isomer`` [n=isomer@xplr-ts-t11-74-127-214-25.barrettxplore.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 20:18:23 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:20:42 xbxb [n=xb@p54ABD6A9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:22:15 another thing that looked cool in the video: setting slime-complete-symbol-function to slime-fuzzy-complete-symbol. But now I get "symbol function definition is void". 20:22:27 kuwabara1: another contrib 20:22:50 ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-87-37.socal.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 20:22:56 hmmm... where can I get a list of those, so I don't have to ask ? 20:23:08 kuwabara1: in the slime source directory under contrib/ 20:24:10 slime-fancy loads most of them 20:26:02 pkhuong: perfect 20:26:22 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 20:26:29 O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-190-121.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 20:28:48 -!- xbxb [n=xb@p54ABD6A9.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 20:31:51 <___> I just set up a slime configuration, and the command slime-close-parens-at-point, supposedly bound to C-c C-q, is undefined. What might be wrong? 20:32:20 -!- hugo__ [n=hugo@89-180-248-92.net.novis.pt] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:32:38 -!- rpg_laptop [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 20:33:01 NoorDextor_ [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 20:33:24 -!- hkBst [n=hkBst@gentoo/developer/hkbst] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:33:42 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:33:45 I only see slime-close-all-parens-in-sexp (C-c C-]) 20:34:18 -!- NoorDextor_ [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit [Client Quit] 20:34:41 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 20:34:41 <___> yeah, that one works 20:35:27 <___> the slime-close-parens-at-point one is supposed to work in the middle though, instead of just at the end 20:35:30 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 20:36:05 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 20:36:14 <___> I was mainly wondering if I had done something dumb when installing it 20:36:28 maybe that got moved off into a contrib 20:36:46 anyway, I suggest not needing to use that particular feature 20:36:53 minion: tell ___ about paredit 20:36:54 ___: have a look at paredit: a set of Emacs commands, with a minor mode for convenient access to them, for editing balanced S-expressions and a number of higher-level operations on S-expressions, at ; see also the #paredit channel 20:37:05 chandler: IIRC, it got removed 20:38:49 -!- ecraven [n=nex@plc31-103.linzag.net] has quit ["bbl"] 20:42:35 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:43:25 eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:47:58 edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has joined #lisp 20:52:19 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@64.241.37.140] has quit [] 20:53:50 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:54:49 -!- ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has quit ["BitchX-1.1-final -- just do it."] 20:55:39 fe[nl]ix [n=algidus@88-149-210-1.dynamic.ngi.it] has joined #lisp 20:57:03 mozzyb [n=mozzyb@248.80-203-57.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 20:57:53 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:58:14 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:00:03 ``Erik [i=erik@c-68-54-174-162.hsd1.md.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:01:20 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0CB16.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:04:28 -!- lhz [n=shrekz@c-3143e455.021-158-73746f34.cust.bredbandsbolaget.se] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:06:12 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-190-121.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:06:12 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:06:13 -!- mimies is now known as spiderbyte 21:06:47 gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has joined #lisp 21:06:57 O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-190-121.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 21:08:19 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-2-176.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 21:11:04 araujo [n=araujo@gentoo/developer/araujo] has joined #lisp 21:11:18 rme [n=rme@12.191.171.94] has joined #lisp 21:14:03 billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 21:18:19 rme_ [n=rme@12.191.171.94] has joined #lisp 21:18:19 -!- rme [n=rme@12.191.171.94] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:18:53 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C064.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:21:08 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 21:26:59 Ash_ [i=aaron@facestab.org] has joined #lisp 21:27:39 -!- Ash [i=aaron@facestab.org] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:28:41 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:28:57 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:29:06 xbxb [n=xb@p54ABD6A9.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:32:30 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-190-121.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:33:27 O_4 [n=souchan@125-236-190-121.broadband-telecom.global-gateway.net.nz] has joined #lisp 21:38:51 -!- mozzyb [n=mozzyb@248.80-203-57.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:38:59 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["go Canada!"] 21:40:53 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 21:42:38 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-143-202.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:43:09 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:47:50 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:49:46 -!- jpcooper [n=justin@unaffiliated/jpcooper] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:51:19 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:51:58 rpg_laptop [n=rpg@216.243.156.16.real-time.com] has joined #lisp 21:53:29 rme [n=rme@12.191.171.94] has joined #lisp 21:53:29 -!- rme_ [n=rme@12.191.171.94] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:57:23 -!- fridim_ [n=fridim@val13-1-82-232-122-245.fbx.proxad.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:57:32 -!- rme [n=rme@12.191.171.94] has quit [Client Quit] 21:58:01 -!- ehu [i=52aa21ad@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-37948353e6db61b8] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 21:58:23 antoszka [n=antoszka@unaffiliated/antoszka] has joined #lisp 21:59:45 -!- ___ [n=reed@adsl-1-207-31.bna.bellsouth.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:01:52 twfxfnf [n=twfxfnf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has joined #lisp 22:02:04 somebody explain to me the difference between funcall and uh 22:02:10 calling a function :>O 22:03:01 > (funcall #'+ 3 4) 22:03:16 twfxfnf: if you have a function designator in a variable, you can call it with funcall 22:03:23 twfxfnf: you can't call it by putting it in the car of a form 22:03:47 car as in 22:03:50 first cell? 22:04:15 the first thing in a form 22:04:20 i'm going to have my "lispiphany" any day now 22:04:29 herhangibiri [n=herhangi@88.197.144.84] has joined #lisp 22:05:15 twfxfnf, (defun number-op (number op) (funcall op number)) (number-op 42 #'+) 22:05:48 twfxfnf, (defun number-op-broken (number op) (op number)) ; <-- won't work, as this will lookup the value cell instead of the function cell of the symbol "op" 22:06:22 "42," nice pick ;) 22:06:23 um 22:06:39 (add handwaving to what I said.) 22:06:45 tic: i know what you mean, but you have it slightly backwards 22:07:17 Xach, d'oh. I hope it didn't make permanent damage to twfxfnf. 22:07:45 *twfxfnf* is already damaged beyond belief 22:07:46 twfxfnf, an interesting article on the subject -> http://www.nhplace.com/kent/Papers/Technical-Issues.html 22:07:48 impulse32 [n=impulse@CPE001195396746-CM001ac3167610.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 22:08:31 kalvatn [i=kalvatn@gaupe.stud.ntnu.no] has joined #lisp 22:09:05 -!- Stateless is now known as Jarvellis 22:09:06 -!- spiderbyte is now known as break-mode 22:09:21 (what did tic mean to say) 22:12:37 Archangel_13 [n=kevin@216-197-159-94.estv.hsdb.sasknet.sk.ca] has joined #lisp 22:13:45 twfxfnf: in the latter case, the value of symbol "op" in the function namespace is used, when what you want to call is the value of the variable "op". 22:14:20 *twfxfnf* gets it!! 22:14:23 :O 22:15:05 what a cool language this is 22:15:09 how does it benchmark? ;) 22:15:21 "it depends" 22:15:40 well you can usually make generalizations like 22:15:44 "much, much faster than C#" 22:15:45 but you can expect around 2x the speed of C on average, from what I've gathered. The biggest win is, of course, programmer time rather than computer time. 22:16:08 (and programmer sanity, if that applies) 22:16:12 tic: 2x the speed? 22:16:28 C is defined in my head as "one level above ASM" 22:16:42 Xach, 0.5x. Forgive me, I'm tired. 22:16:46 so if that's true, i'm impresed ;) 22:16:59 twfxfnf, most Lisp compilers produce native machine code. 22:17:19 *tic* goes to bed instead, to avoid further mistakes. 22:17:32 not in terms of what the compiler produces 22:17:40 more like the level of abstraction necessary to implement the language 22:18:54 well, implementation ease over ease-of-use is a cornerstone of wrong-is-right 22:19:41 i come from the school of "write really fast programs that are ridiculously customizable, fuck how much time you spend doing it" 22:19:58 the Von Mises school 22:20:49 billstclai [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has joined #lisp 22:21:45 *hefner* was not aware that Ludwig von Mises wrote about software development 22:21:47 -!- billstclair [n=billstcl@unaffiliated/billstclair] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:22:03 *twfxfnf* wasn't aware hugh hefner hung out in #lisp 22:22:17 -!- billstclai is now known as billstclair 22:23:09 -!- emarsden [n=user@mir31-3-82-234-52-44.fbx.proxad.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:23:27 *hefner* does, and knows how to use funcall, too. 22:24:32 nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has joined #lisp 22:24:52 you can read into economics texts however you wish ;) 22:26:25 *twfxfnf* wasn't serious in the first place 22:27:25 etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 22:27:30 Odin- [n=sbkhh@s121-302.gardur.hi.is] has joined #lisp 22:27:30 -!- twfxfnf is now known as twfxfnxfnf 22:32:41 -!- vasa [n=vasa@mm-219-188-84-93.dynamic.pppoe.mgts.by] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 22:33:11 -!- nikodemus [n=nikodemu@cs181229041.pp.htv.fi] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 22:34:28 drewr [n=user@pdpc/supporter/active/drewr] has joined #lisp 22:34:50 Anybody else at OOPSLA? 22:35:18 i'm only 2000 miles away 22:35:43 want to come grab a beer later? 22:36:21 twfxfnxfnf: I'll zip on over. 22:36:31 -!- younder [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 22:36:40 ok 22:36:42 bring the beer 22:37:34 Actually, I'll be at a Clozure-sponsored gathering. 22:38:23 Was wondering if Jeremy or any of the others were around here. 22:38:29 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-250-152.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 22:38:39 -!- chris2 [n=chris@ppp-88-217-76-152.dynamic.mnet-online.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:38:53 mib_dhw0xe [i=80e37fc1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b3187a99b1298c2f] has joined #lisp 22:39:09 -!- rdd [n=rdd@c83-250-142-219.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 22:39:35 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@p4FEADCEA.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:39:50 I have a list of lists (containing numbers). I"m tring to convert this to a multi-dimensional array (the sublists all have the same length). What'd be the best way to go about that? The only thing i cna think of is processing each node in every sublist and adding it to the array 22:40:18 ((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9)) --> #2A((1 2 3) (4 5 6) (7 8 9)) 22:41:12 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:13 -!- Jarvellis is now known as Stateless 22:41:40 mib_dhw0xe: (make-array '(3 3) :initial-contents your-list) 22:43:09 mib_dhw0xe: easy as pie! 22:43:15 oooh 22:43:23 i thought :initial-contents was only for a default value 22:43:36 that's :initial-element 22:44:23 drewr: cool. 22:44:55 AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has joined #lisp 22:45:12 -!- herhangibiri [n=herhangi@88.197.144.84] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:46:05 from now on only primes may be used as the dimensions of an array. (The committee considered requiring the total size to also be prime, then decided that would be impractical.) 22:49:09 -!- bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:51:47 netaust1n [n=austinsm@24-151-18-072.dhcp.nwtn.ct.charter.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:46 nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 22:52:54 -!- nicknull [n=hask@h136n1c1o1097.bredband.skanova.com] has left #lisp 22:56:22 mozzyb [n=mozzyb@248.80-203-57.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 22:56:35 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:58:06 hi. 22:59:13 allnmymi` [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 22:59:59 -!- etfb [n=poet@ppp59-167-45-177.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has left #lisp 23:00:12 mib_vva2shmq [i=de958772@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-e0fa6c88687d4caf] has joined #lisp 23:01:44 hi trebor_home 23:03:53 S11001001: what? 23:04:07 tongue in cheek 23:04:14 -!- Yuuhi [i=benni@p5483C294.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 23:05:27 -!- xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 23:06:23 rvirding_ [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 23:06:59 mib_jqsttt2r [i=de958772@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ec5e8a9366982963] has joined #lisp 23:07:06 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit ["gone"] 23:07:11 -!- rvirding_ is now known as forget 23:08:36 -!- mib_jqsttt2r [i=de958772@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-ec5e8a9366982963] has quit [Client Quit] 23:10:07 -!- forget is now known as ghost 23:10:32 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 23:10:39 -!- ghost is now known as Guest29550 23:10:41 -!- Guest29550 is now known as rvirding 23:18:09 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:19:33 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-250-152.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:19:49 -!- mib_dhw0xe [i=80e37fc1@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-b3187a99b1298c2f] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 23:19:56 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-250-152.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:20:01 -!- Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has quit ["leaving"] 23:22:37 -!- mozzyb [n=mozzyb@248.80-203-57.nextgentel.com] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:24:08 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 23:29:44 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@202.176.4.21] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:32:18 *rvirding* says time to go, good night all 23:32:34 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 23:32:41 Aisling [i=ash@blk-137-73-33.eastlink.ca] has joined #lisp 23:32:41 -!- Stateless is now known as DeadJarv 23:35:36 -!- break-mode is now known as spiderbyte 23:48:44 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:49:07 -!- wasabi_ [n=wasabi@ntoska151203.oska.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving..."] 23:53:01 syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has joined #lisp 23:53:53 younder [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 23:54:59 -!- younder [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 23:56:02 what does (compose #'- fn) do? 23:56:03 -!- dv_ [n=dv@85-127-102-97.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit ["Gone"] 23:56:11 or specifically #'-, what is function - 23:56:41 :O 23:57:03 clhs - 23:57:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a__.htm 23:57:36 *twfxfnxfnf* smacks his head 23:57:37 -!- syamajala [n=syamajal@140.232.178.190] has quit [Client Quit] 23:58:34 why in gods name is the-smallest-random-tie a negation of the-biggest-random-tie 23:58:43 yeoh [n=chatzill@120.8.111.218.kmr03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 23:59:22 younder [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 23:59:37 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Remote closed the connection]