00:00:43 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [Client Quit] 00:03:09 -!- spiderbyte is now known as away-mode 00:03:10 Stupid question: has anyone gotten a computer to prove the incompleteness theorem? 00:03:55 I know there are theorem-proving programs. And I suspect that it might be impossible to get one to prove the incompleteness theorem but I'm unsure why. 00:04:24 has anyone proved that incompleteness is improvable? 00:05:00 mine is still running :/ 00:07:34 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-34-206.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 00:07:59 Huh. Apparently you can, but you need good heuristics. 00:08:06 http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=4860370 00:08:16 "declaration function" is only the way to declare the type of parameters for defining function with defun? I thought it would be nice if I can declare the type like (param string) as defmethod do. 00:08:25 mogunus: it's `just' a diagonalisation. 00:08:53 tomoyuki28jp: some people have written defun wrappers that do that. 00:09:09 pkhuong: yeah, it makes sense that if diagonalization is available to your automatic theorem prover, it would work. 00:09:20 Xach: Oh, really. That's what I wanted to know. Thanks! 00:09:23 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A26133.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 00:09:44 tomoyuki28jp: i don't use anything like that, though. in a defun, declaring types makes things harder to change later. 00:11:21 -!- away-mode is now known as spiderbyte 00:12:56 Xach: Uhmmm, you use CLOS, right? I think it is same thing with the generic function because it checks the type of parameters. 00:13:33 -!- felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has quit [Client Quit] 00:13:35 it checks classes of arguments 00:14:51 Hi everyone. I'm new to the channel and just wanted to introduce myself. I'm an undergrad (in a year I'll be a graduate student) studying artificial intelligence... I've worked with Lisp for about five months fairly heavily and saw Xach's quote on PCL so I figured I'd check out the channel. 00:15:18 Zoba: what sort of AI? 00:15:24 Zoba: welcome! 00:15:26 Luckily I don't have any questions or need any one to do my assignments :) 00:15:34 skynet or something 00:15:51 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A128C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:16:12 S11001001: I thought it must be R2D2. 00:16:23 mogunus, right now I'm working on metareasoning, similar to what Jon Doyle did in his thesis 00:16:28 welcome Zoba 00:16:36 welcome Zoba! 00:16:37 Zoba: welcome o7 00:16:42 nah, no one wants to work on a franchise that's descended into eternal lameness 00:16:45 schme [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:17:10 *terminal 00:17:18 benny [n=benny@i577A128C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 00:17:19 Zoba: oh, cool. welcome to #lisp :-) 00:18:32 LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 00:19:31 mogunus, et al: thanks for the welcome... hopefully I'll be of some help if people ask simple questions 00:25:22 Do lispers call nil as false?? "integerp: Returns true if object is of type integer; otherwise, returns false. " http://www.lispworks.com/documentation/HyperSpec/Body/f_inte_1.htm 00:25:31 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:25:48 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [] 00:26:04 nil is false. everything else is true. 00:26:13 clhs boolean 00:26:13 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/t_ban.htm 00:26:40 tomoyuki28jp: the link to "generalized boolean" explains 00:27:10 tomoyuki28jp: the link to "true" also leads to an explanation 00:28:17 -!- schme_ [n=marcus@c83-249-231-47.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:28:33 hefner: Xach: Thanks! I understood it. 00:28:52 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:29:08 -!- Xach has set mode -o Xach 00:29:42 Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:29:47 yeoh [n=chatzill@64.49.48.60.kmr03-home.tm.net.my] has joined #lisp 00:32:21 bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 00:32:32 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Connection timed out] 00:32:41 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 00:32:56 *rvirding* says good night all 00:33:03 -!- slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:33:07 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 00:34:36 Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 00:37:29 -!- allnmymind [n=user@bas3-ottawa10-1279680047.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:39:29 robert` [n=user@dslb-084-058-201-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:43 jlpeters [n=james@c-76-104-146-72.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 00:39:52 hello. someone using debian/sidux here? can i install slime via apt-get? 00:39:52 -!- robert` is now known as Guest12957 00:40:18 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@EM119-72-34-206.pool.e-mobile.ne.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 00:40:31 on debian, certainly 00:40:52 you can, but it's not a best way 00:41:02 robert`: but they recommed you using cvs version 00:41:17 ths_ [n=ths@X6aaa.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 00:41:43 the version of slime in debian stable (etch) is pretty old 00:42:07 Guest12957: slime doesn't do normal releases very often, and the old stuff doesn't always work with more recent lisps 00:42:43 in debian testing it's a cvs from february 00:42:47 apt-cache policy says 1:20080223-2. is this recent enough 00:42:51 ? 00:42:56 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@199.237.80.119] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:42:59 s/testing/unstable/ 00:43:25 -!- spiderbyte is now known as away-mode 00:43:49 I've always just used the version in cvs, not sure how well the etch version would work 00:43:58 robert, what lisp are you trying to use it with 00:44:11 i installed sidux on this machine, because emacs/slime/sbcl all from cvs did not work on this machine 00:44:19 under debian. 00:44:25 -!- lukego [n=lukegorr@cpe-76-87-84-57.socal.res.rr.com] has quit [] 00:44:26 Guest12957: that's pretty old. 00:44:35 Guest12957: probably would work ok though. 00:45:20 Guest12957: it's odd that emacs and slime and sbcl from cvs wouldn't work somewhere, though. 00:45:33 -!- persi [n=user@ec2-72-44-44-74.z-2.compute-1.amazonaws.com] has left #lisp 00:45:46 isomer`` [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 00:45:59 i was trebor_home .... (i do not have my pw now that i cleaned the whole hd ;) 00:46:16 Guest12957 is much more distinctive. 00:47:04 i got broken connections all the time, nobody could help me, so i decided to do a new-start (the debian was not working too well at all). so you say slime-cvs. 00:47:22 the sbcl is not cruical i suppose. 00:47:43 au contraire! new sbcl has --script support and will soon have runtime options saved in the core! 00:47:57 *Xach* is going to use that for nefarious purposes soon 00:49:02 apt-cache policy sbcl says 1.0.18.0-1 so this should be ok, right? 00:49:04 -!- ths [n=ths@X46bf.x.pppool.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 00:49:06 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 00:49:29 Guest12957: "ok", yes. but cvs sbcl is grrrrreat! 00:49:37 -!- rwbarton [n=rwbarton@pool-96-237-243-95.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 00:50:19 5 month difference between sbcl and slime, can be ok, and can be not 00:50:21 you know, i really got crazy, that emacs/slime/sbcl was working on 5 other machines, but not on my personal laptop. so the only thing i really want is a working coding environment. 00:50:44 Have you tried clbuild/ 00:51:05 what would be the cvs-commands to get the last stables from slime & sbcl? 00:51:06 Guest12957: your debian packaged sbcl is cursed 00:51:44 Guest12957: i use the "upstream" set of scripts from nikodemus, very handy. then i type "sfnet sbcl" and "clnet slime" 00:51:52 and "savannah emacs" 00:52:04 -!- yeoh [n=chatzill@64.49.48.60.kmr03-home.tm.net.my] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 00:52:16 http://random-state.net/files/upstream-1.1.tar.gz is the program 00:52:18 and cross your fingers 00:53:57 -!- isomer [n=isomer@CPE001310e6cb31-CM0011aec5e684.cpe.net.cable.rogers.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 00:55:02 veritius [n=po@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has joined #lisp 00:55:08 Xach: do i have to configure them? 00:56:11 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 00:56:28 Guest12957: sort of. i usually configure sbcl to have thread support. 00:56:49 you also have to put some lines in ~/.emacs to make slime work. 00:57:23 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.62.5.78] has joined #lisp 00:58:35 the lines will be the same as on the other 5 machines (and given in the readme), but there is nothing else i have to do? just sfnet sbcl? and clnet slime? 00:59:36 well, that will fetch the sources. 00:59:43 you still have to compile and install sbcl 01:00:08 ./clnet slime -> checkout failed (./clnet: 77: cvs: not found) 01:00:28 ups, i forgot to install cvs client i suppose ;/ 01:00:53 eevar_ [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 01:04:40 -!- ikki [n=ikki@189.139.96.127] has quit ["Leaving"] 01:06:25 after checking out sbcl from cvs -> sh make.sh -> make.sh 111: time: not found -> what does that mean, how can i fix it? 01:06:43 -!- dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-99-136-101-166.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:07:37 Guest12957: it means that the "time" program was not found. that's pretty unusual. 01:07:51 -!- eevar_ [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:07:57 what happens if you type "time" at the shell? 01:08:13 "time" is installed on my system in /usr/bin/time 01:08:59 do i need another sbcl to install sbcl? 01:09:17 -!- veritius [n=po@c83-252-190-193.bredband.comhem.se] has quit [Client Quit] 01:09:24 Guest12957: that's one of the easiest ways. i usually get a binary from sbcl.org. 01:10:09 Xach: so i didn't need to run the upstream scripts? 01:10:43 badlambda [n=badlambd@200-193-108-177.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has joined #lisp 01:10:50 Guest12957: if you want the latest sbcl, you need to build it yourself. 01:11:12 felipe [n=felipe@my.nada.kth.se] has joined #lisp 01:12:34 at the office i am working with sbcl 1.0.9 which is ok for me (i am novice). 01:12:49 -!- emma is now known as joe-the-plumber 01:12:59 -!- joe-the-plumber is now known as emma 01:13:15 emma: if you're amusing some other channel with nick changes for a while, try parting #lisp 01:13:28 Guest12957: ok, ok. but the latest sbcl is really cool too! 01:14:43 MHOOO [n=nah@3-002.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 01:14:48 man, i got crazy because this laptop was not working with emacs/slime/sbcl at all. the only thing i need is a working coding environment on my personal laptop. i only do not want to mess it up again. 01:16:13 it's easy: install sbcl, install emacs, install slime 01:16:54 it was easy on all other 5 machines, it was not easy on this one. 01:21:03 -!- jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:24:06 -!- m4dnificent [n=user@83.101.62.132] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:24:38 -!- manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:24:54 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:25:46 Guest12957, Lunix, mac, windows? 01:26:10 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@209-161-227-32.dsl.look.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:26:41 -!- birdsbite [n=user@75.110.164.248] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:29:42 a macbook running under sidux (debian) 01:31:22 -!- kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has quit [] 01:31:54 kpreid [n=kpreid@cpe-67-242-12-135.twcny.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 01:32:51 -!- SimonAdameit [n=simon@rlh.mediascape.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:33:11 Aszarsha [n=Miranda@dsl-67-212-29-9.acanac.net] has joined #lisp 01:33:57 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 01:34:11 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 01:35:18 -!- badlambda [n=badlambd@200-193-108-177.jvece702.dsl.brasiltelecom.net.br] has quit ["."] 01:36:02 so it seems to work ... but hopefully connections do not get broken agai. 01:36:14 younder [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 01:39:02 -!- echo-are` [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-dbdf7d34c653f2d8] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:39:47 echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-852000cbc78917b5] has joined #lisp 01:40:43 seems to work - now i can recover my backups ;) 01:45:09 Guest129` [n=user@dslb-084-058-226-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 01:45:13 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.251.140] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:48:42 -!- Guest129` [n=user@dslb-084-058-226-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 01:50:56 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@3-002.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 01:51:43 -!- anekos [n=anekos@pl432.nas924.p-osaka.nttpc.ne.jp] has quit ["Leaving.."] 01:54:41 qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has joined #lisp 01:55:37 -!- tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has quit [] 01:55:40 -!- LiamH [n=nobody@pool-138-88-126-7.res.east.verizon.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 01:57:27 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 02:02:44 -!- Guest12957 [n=user@dslb-084-058-201-103.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:05:08 sudoer [n=jtoy@58.62.26.146] has joined #lisp 02:07:29 bohanlon` [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 02:08:37 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 02:09:53 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Excess Flood] 02:10:01 Serva [n=Serva@129.21.78.55] has joined #lisp 02:10:08 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has quit [] 02:10:25 -!- qbg [n=qbg@rn084084.morris.umn.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 02:14:54 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.62.5.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:15:02 -!- bighouse [n=bighouse@modemcable012.160-131-66.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 02:15:45 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:19:17 -!- esden___ [n=esdentem@91-67-156-25-dynip.superkabel.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:21:25 -!- bohanlon [n=bohanlon@pool-71-184-116-124.bstnma.fios.verizon.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 02:24:04 twxfn [n=ushdf@syru217-183.syr.edu] has joined #lisp 02:26:28 haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has joined #lisp 02:27:38 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-10-63.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [] 02:29:04 rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has joined #lisp 02:33:59 pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:36:37 cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:38:58 -!- away-mode is now known as spiderbyte 02:41:04 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 02:46:34 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@c-71-192-208-28.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 02:46:40 aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 02:50:11 disumu [n=disumu@p57A26133.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 02:52:13 -!- blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 02:52:32 -!- ddsmith [n=ddsmith@12.6.239.179] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 02:59:19 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:00:49 -!- isomer`` is now known as isomer 03:02:38 Guest26197: you use backup recovery software written in Lisp? 03:02:39 -!- sburson [n=gyro@c-98-234-71-91.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["using sirc version 2.211+KSIRC/1.3.12"] 03:05:36 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.87.203] has joined #lisp 03:05:57 smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 03:06:42 dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has joined #lisp 03:07:52 -!- rtoym [n=chatzill@user-0c8hpll.cable.mindspring.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092414]"] 03:11:24 -!- jlpeters [n=james@c-76-104-146-72.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 03:13:55 -!- sudoer [n=jtoy@58.62.26.146] has quit [Connection timed out] 03:18:38 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-10-63.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 03:19:17 -!- O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-10-63.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has quit [Client Quit] 03:19:29 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 03:21:51 xbxbxb [n=xb@p54ABD706.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 03:22:18 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A26133.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 03:24:32 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 03:26:50 -!- mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-dfaa2b9bca875b3c] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 03:27:13 -!- Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has quit [] 03:30:58 -!- Aszarsha [n=Miranda@dsl-67-212-29-9.acanac.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:36:51 -!- xbxb [n=xb@p54ABDCA0.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:39:01 Serva pasted "a-star-search" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68615 03:40:21 if you look closely.. the result of generate-succ is being used by set-diff.. that result is further used by push operation... and so on.. upto the result of prioritize-queue.. is being assigned to pqueue 03:40:54 .. so my assumption is that before computing current-node.. which comes before pqueue in the argument list.. pqueue would have been computed already 03:41:08 and current-node will take the first element, from the latest pqueue list 03:41:25 and then.. a-star-search will recurse 03:41:42 am i assuming correctly? 03:41:51 i.e. a valid assumption 03:42:30 Serva: I've not looked at all of it, but I can point out some style issues that make the code harder to understand 03:42:52 1) lose the flag parameter; use a different function to start up the list 03:42:58 2) stop setfing stuff! 03:43:51 the flag is set just because I want to retain the values assigned to pqueue and vqueue after each recursion 03:44:28 how do you propose assigning a new value to var1, after doing some operations on var1 03:45:07 <_3b> are you assuming both of those statements in the IF get run when flag = 0? 03:45:20 _3b, yes 03:45:28 good call, _3b 03:45:38 should I use progn? 03:45:39 <_3b> Serva: they don't... you want WHEN there 03:46:02 <_3b> but separating it to an initialization and recusive part would be better 03:46:42 I tried using labels.. but could not get hang if it 03:46:44 <_3b> PUSH already assigns the results, so don't do (setf foo (push ... foo)) 03:47:15 I cant see any setf after a push operation 03:47:18 also, don't do (a-star-search (set current-node (car pqueue ... 03:47:24 you 03:47:37 you're done with current-node when you do the next call 03:47:42 <_3b> Serva: ah, sorry, missed the prioritiz-queue in the middle 03:47:54 just (a-star-search (car pqueue) ... 03:48:25 so I can assume that pqueue would have been computed already.. 03:48:44 before giving the first arg (car pqueue) to a-star-search recursion? 03:49:44 <_3b> i don't think so 03:49:56 <_3b> would be mroe readable to calculate them before the call anyway though 03:51:49 bpt [n=bpt@cpe-071-070-209-067.nc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 03:51:52 you mean, i should store the results temporarily into anothter variable 03:52:06 and then use that variable for higher level operation.. 03:52:24 <_3b> well, considering you already store them into a variable for no reason :p 03:52:38 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 03:52:55 okay, i can do that 03:53:02 also, should be noted, a-star-search should be taking start-node, end-node, heuristic, and grid 03:53:23 wait a min. 03:53:41 (also, for cuteness, you should note that Lisp lets you name the function A*-search) 03:53:52 <_3b> also (setf foo (car pqueue)) (setf pqueue (cdr pqueue)) -> (setf foo (pop pqueue)) 03:54:02 Serva pasted "Complete Source" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68616 03:54:45 This is the complete source, as you can see check-goal function does not really need an argument on its own.. it just needs to have a value "G" and the dieUp value as 1 03:56:04 tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has joined #lisp 03:57:25 _3b, i cant see those two setf' together in my code 03:57:43 Serva: after ;5. Recurse... 03:57:53 you have setf, push (unrelated), setf 03:58:24 yes, i have that - correcting 03:58:29 pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 03:58:34 also, you have (setf cutent-node (car pqueue)) twice in your code 03:59:09 on your recursive call, thus discarding a point 04:00:00 I changed it already to (car pqueue) 04:00:47 -!- pstickne [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 04:01:05 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:01:20 I am trying to find debugging tools for lisp 04:02:49 Serva: you can simplify a lot the recursive call by making generate-successors a little better 04:03:17 why pass each part as a parameter when you can make generate-successors split-up current-node by itseld 04:03:19 benny` [n=benny@i577A128C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 04:03:21 itself 04:03:32 -!- benny [n=benny@i577A128C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 04:05:13 number of args. could be just one - current-node 04:05:54 netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 04:05:55 i'll have to do a lot of getf for all other properties 04:06:35 you do a lot of getfs right now 04:07:02 instead of passing them from outside, you split current-node up inside the function 04:07:12 good morning 04:07:18 i feel so stupid 04:07:28 i didn't realize "and" was the binary and 04:07:40 i was so used to seeing it as a symbol 04:07:55 AND is not binary 04:08:01 sorry 04:08:02 logical 04:08:16 Tordek, I am removing entire-grid also as it is global var 04:08:30 and will have only one arg. to gener-succ 04:08:30 twxfn: and AND *is* a symbol. It names a macro. 04:08:56 Serva: you shouldn't have ANY globals, anyway ;P 04:09:37 this is like bizarro language 04:09:43 it makes sense though 04:10:13 I took to myself to do a tiny lisp implementation in C 04:10:22 am I in for a world of madness? 04:10:33 yes 04:10:37 yay 04:10:51 Tordek: Not if you already have a strong background in compiler design and lisp syntax. 04:10:58 <_3b> yeah, using C sounds like madness to me :p 04:11:18 what syntax? ;P 04:11:28 aja: s/lisp syntax/nil= 04:11:35 s/=//// 04:11:53 sykopomp: Heh. I suppose. How about s/syntax/idiom/ ? 04:12:14 s/idiom/sexiness/ 04:12:34 Tordek: If you're interested in that sort of thing, the book "Lisp in Small Pieces" will likely be of value. 04:13:33 -!- NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has quit ["go Canada!"] 04:13:43 Tordek: I pull it off my shelf periodically, realize that most of it is still over my head, and return it to its place for further aging. 04:15:00 -!- chavo_ [n=user@c-24-118-166-62.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 04:15:03 twxfn: the language might be strange to you, but it is better to use the established terminology. Otherwise, communication will be very hard indeed. 04:15:54 Tordek: Although, arguably, if you're looking to get your feet wet in compiler design, a Lisp cognate is a good place to start. 04:17:45 Tordek: What are the reasons for writing it in C? 04:18:57 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 04:20:29 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46A22.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 04:21:11 -!- wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 04:23:38 wlr [n=walt@c-65-96-92-150.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:25:25 -!- VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 04:27:22 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 04:28:22 evening 04:28:28 hello slyrus 04:28:51 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 04:28:58 hey beach. did I miss anything interesting today? 04:29:11 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 04:29:14 If you did, I probably did too. 04:32:41 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:36:28 -!- rottcodd [n=user@ppp59-167-47-200.lns2.cbr1.internode.on.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:36:42 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46F41.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 04:39:58 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 04:40:52 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 04:45:55 -!- gigamonk` [n=user@adsl-99-179-46-176.dsl.pltn13.sbcglobal.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 04:47:35 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.141.58] has joined #lisp 04:51:43 I haven't talked about my SICL progress for a while, so here it is for the bored: http://dept-info.labri.fr/~strandh/SICL/sicl.git 04:52:19 In particular, there is a file "conditionals.lisp" that implements macros for and, or, cond, and the case and typecase families. 04:52:57 Oh, and the code compiles, but I haven't done any real testing. 04:53:53 <_3b> cool, been meaning to look for the url for that 04:54:05 <_3b> not that my compiler is likely to be good enough to compile any of it yet :) 04:57:32 I made an attempt to implement ccase and ctypecase so that the suforms of the place are evaluated only once. 04:58:02 hrm... x86-64 builds fine. well, unithreaded anyway. 04:58:36 *slyrus* wonders what the general status of x86-64/darwin/threads is these days 04:58:57 slyrus: probably better than x86 ;) Seems to WFM if I don't try to stress it with sb-sprof. 04:59:14 you mean better than x86 in general, or better than since the recent bustage? 04:59:28 I'm guessing the later, but not the former... 04:59:47 or, well, perhaps neither :) we'll know in a couple minutes 05:00:08 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.141.58] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:00:13 better than x86, actually. 05:00:30 There's some dodgy stuff in the darwin/x86 runtime. 05:01:03 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.141.58] has joined #lisp 05:01:45 pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:04:59 hrm... x86-64/darwin/threads broken too. 05:05:06 guess it's a lutex problem. 05:05:48 <_3b> beach: are you using tab chars in sicl source intentionally? 05:07:49 Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-30-190.kosnet.ru] has joined #lisp 05:08:35 slyrus: mm... builds works fine here, 10.5.5 05:08:44 threads?? 05:08:56 yes 05:09:31 hrm... 10.5.5 has broken builds for me on both the desktop and the lappy. x86 and x86-64 on the desktop. 05:10:19 XCode 3.1 (Core 1100.0), gcc 4.0.1 (build 5484) 05:11:13 hrm... gcc version 4.0.1 (Apple Inc. build 5465) 05:11:41 but I doubt that matters. 05:12:04 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has quit [] 05:14:46 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:15:06 me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has joined #lisp 05:17:43 *slyrus* hopes this isn't some heisenbug due to stack alignment or some crap like that. 05:18:14 jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:18:44 -!- pstickne_ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:19:06 -!- younder [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:19:11 yup, builds with threads on both platforms here 05:19:23 argh... what version of sbcl? 05:19:37 oh, wait, it's not threads... 05:19:38 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:19:43 it's sb-after-xc-core I bet 05:19:45 -!- dthomp [n=dat@dyn-188-dynamic.linfield.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 05:20:01 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 05:21:29 slyrus: no, have that too. 05:21:38 building with 1.0.21.5 05:21:55 sb-ldb? 05:22:09 you're building .18 or .15? 05:22:32 building 15. 05:22:45 SB-LDB too. 05:23:58 argh... I'm using 1.0.21.2, but, again, I don't see how that would matter. 05:25:24 jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has joined #lisp 05:25:48 _3b: no, I imagine Emacs put them there. 05:26:03 well, turning off sb-after-xc-core fixes the x86-64/sb-thread build 05:26:30 now to see if turning it back on breaks things again 05:27:45 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.141.58] has quit ["rcirc on GNU Emacs 23.0.60.1"] 05:27:49 can you try and see if the latest commit builds ok from the last release (and from itself)? If we can pretend it's not there... 05:30:28 Is there a lisp library for curing insomnia? 05:30:31 that will be a last resort :) 05:30:55 oh, there we go. broken with sb-after-xc-core, works without it. 05:31:24 jfm3: try anaphora 05:31:40 -!- slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 05:31:46 (no hate here, I use it myself) 05:32:18 -!- pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 05:32:40 pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 05:34:16 slash_ [n=Unknown@whgeh0138.cip.uni-regensburg.de] has joined #lisp 05:34:27 jfm3: Any one will do. Just start reading the code, and you'll fall asleep. 05:35:54 Well, if that was going to work, it would have worked already. 05:36:32 pkhuong: can you paste your customize-target-features.lisp just to make sure I'm not missing anything? 05:37:24 -!- stassats [n=stassats@wikipedia/stassats] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 05:37:50 pkhuong pasted "customize-target-features.lisp" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68617 05:46:35 pkhuong: did you try sb-thread, sb-after-xc-core and sb-ldb all at the same time? 05:52:00 Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 05:54:54 Reaver_11 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 05:57:22 -!- rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-108.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has quit [] 06:02:35 slyrus: I have sb-ldb by default, it seems. 06:02:52 slyrus annotated #68617 with "this seems silly, but, pkhuong, try this" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68617#1 06:04:30 -!- Maghnus [n=Maghnus@68-190-147-184.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 06:04:37 I hope you're wrong (: 06:04:45 me too... 06:05:30 eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 06:10:51 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 06:12:12 gdmfsob [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 06:14:42 still nothing. 06:14:54 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-106-1.customers.d1-online.com] has joined #lisp 06:15:16 arghh... damn heisenbugs. I'm going to bed. 06:17:45 good night. I hope it's not a flaky commit somehow affecting the cross compiler. 06:17:51 LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has joined #lisp 06:18:29 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:23:23 -!- joga [i=joga@unaffiliated/joga] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:25:28 O_4 [n=souchan@ip-118-90-111-1.xdsl.xnet.co.nz] has joined #lisp 06:31:35 good morning 06:31:36 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-071-183.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 06:32:05 VityokOrgUa [n=user@193.109.118.130] has joined #lisp 06:32:50 -!- Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@abdallo.cs.unibo.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 06:35:11 -!- aja [n=aja@S01060018f3ab066e.ed.shawcable.net] has quit [Client Quit] 06:36:45 lichtblau [n=user@port-83-236-3-70.dynamic.qsc.de] has joined #lisp 06:40:56 Moin. 06:41:22 l_a_m [n=lam@194.51.71.190] has joined #lisp 06:41:40 good morning 06:42:23 tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has joined #lisp 06:42:35 When bracket does not match, sbcl invoke Condition of type SB-C::INPUT-ERROR-IN-COMPILE-FILE. Is there a way to handle this kind of conditions with portable code? 06:42:56 -!- LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has quit [Connection timed out] 06:48:49 -!- gdmfsob [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 06:48:53 -!- retupmoca [n=retupmoc@adsl-75-7-172-35.dsl.klmzmi.sbcglobal.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 06:50:02 Mr_SpOOn [n=Mr_SpOOn@abdallo.cs.unibo.it] has joined #lisp 06:50:20 mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has joined #lisp 06:53:06 -!- chitech [n=khuongdp@82.143.212.234] has quit [Client Quit] 06:54:23 LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has joined #lisp 06:55:50 tomoyuki28jp: you can handle different conditions, based on the implementation, I believe. 06:56:11 I haven't used the feature myself, but I know that you can set certain parts of code to only work if you're using a certain implementation. 06:57:04 clhs: #+ 06:57:04 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/02_dhq.htm 06:57:58 kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 06:58:53 sykopomp: jdz: I know that way, but I wanted to know if there is another better way. thanks. 06:58:59 morning lispers 06:59:25 ddsmith [n=ddsmith@12.6.239.179] has joined #lisp 06:59:38 tomoyuki28jp: well, the condition you mentioned is implementation specific. how do you expect to handle it with portable code? 07:00:13 the most portable version is a version that guarantees that the condition won't be signaled. 07:00:43 sykopomp: How can we guarantees that? 07:01:08 tomoyuki28jp: make sure brackets match. Put a conditional somewhere. 07:01:15 tomoyuki28jp: use paredit? 07:01:47 (unless (brackets-do-not-match-p my-bracket-stack) (exec-my-code ...)) 07:02:58 sykopomp: Is there a way to load another lisp file with guaranteeing that? 07:03:02 but it just occurred to me that you -are- probably just doing this to configure your slime. In which case, I'd say #+ 07:03:20 I thought you were generating code. >_> 07:03:27 so yeah. 07:03:59 dialtone [n=dialtone@adsl-67-124-37-114.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 07:04:08 MHOOO [n=nah@3-025.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:04:28 what are you trying to do when you handle the exception, by the way? Or are you trying to get rid of it altogether? 07:05:31 I am developing a http server, and I am thinking the way how the http server loads a lisp file that user requests. 07:06:36 You should probably think in terms of request URIs<->handler mappings rather than URI<->lisp file. 07:07:18 -!- LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 07:07:32 -!- daniel_ is now known as daniel 07:07:56 LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has joined #lisp 07:07:58 -!- Draggor [n=weblair@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:07:59 Aankhen`` [n=pockled@122.162.154.37] has joined #lisp 07:08:22 tic: Either way, I will develop a router and a dispatcher, but I don't want force users to set up each dispatcher manually. 07:12:35 ehu` [i=3ed68bbd@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6b8346df52c9e16c] has joined #lisp 07:13:14 tomoyuki28jp: another HTTP serever? don't we have enough already? 07:13:46 jdz: Yes, we do. 07:15:33 -!- Tordek [n=tordek@host131.190-137-193.telecom.net.ar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 07:15:41 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45DED.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:16:11 -!- nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:16:15 tomoyuki28jp: but your's is gonna be the best one, right? 07:16:17 mulligan [n=user@e178049054.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 07:16:27 -!- LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 07:16:46 nullwork [n=kyle@c-24-245-23-122.hsd1.mn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 07:17:31 LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has joined #lisp 07:17:57 jdz: I am actually creating a minimum http server for my own lisp web framework. Fist I was trying to use hunchentoot, but it was difficult to hack in the way I wanted. 07:18:15 I mean web application framework. 07:19:40 weblocks, ucw? 07:19:52 webapplication frameworks, I mean 07:24:02 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:27:43 ehu`: yes, I know these. 07:29:43 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46A22.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:30:01 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 07:30:44 s_p [n=s_p___@eduroam.lu.lv] has joined #lisp 07:31:04 -!- cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Client Quit] 07:34:25 -!- kij [n=user@x1-6-00-09-5b-fd-49-01.k891.webspeed.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 07:36:16 ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has joined #lisp 07:38:46 zu22 [n=ubuntu@unaffiliated/zu22] has joined #lisp 07:39:52 !lisp 07:39:55 ~lisp 07:40:01 ,lisp 07:40:05 hi zu22. First time in here? 07:40:10 tic: hi 07:40:16 i want to learn lisp 07:40:23 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C940.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 07:40:23 but my computer is 8 years old and slow hehe 07:40:26 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 07:40:47 jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:53 is it possible to learn lisp if one does not have a great rote memory? 07:40:55 H4ns1 [n=hans@p57A0C940.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 07:40:59 i find it hard memorizing in general 07:41:04 I am not quite sure what !lisp, ~lisp and ,lisp does. But you might want to have a look at Practical Common Lisp. 07:41:05 tomoyuki28jp: how was hunchentoot not hackable the way you wanted? 07:41:08 zu22, of course. 07:41:13 minion, tell zu22 about that-dead-sexy-book 07:41:14 zu22: direct your attention towards that-dead-sexy-book: pcl-book: "Practical Common Lisp", an introduction to Common Lisp by Peter Seibel, available at http://www.gigamonkeys.com/book/ and in dead-tree form from Apress (as of 11 April 2005). 07:41:27 zu22, that is an excellent book. it's what got me into Lisp, I truly recommend it. 07:41:28 tic: oh thanks i will check that out 07:41:57 tic: i am intermediately fluent in C and my friend has been using lisp so i wanted to see what it's all about 07:42:18 can one make GUIs with lisp? and 2d graphics? 07:42:31 or is it just for calculation etc.. 07:42:41 you can make everything with Lisp. 07:42:55 ah 07:43:09 zu22: creating guis in common lisp is not that easy, though. 07:43:17 web servers, 3D rendering engines, games (used in some PS/2 game!), puzzle solving, etc. 07:43:21 all the schools are pushing python, java and some c++ 07:43:33 i wondered how many working programmers actually use lisp 07:43:36 zu22: but in any case, learning lisp may make you a better programmer 07:43:44 H4ns: oh i see 07:43:47 zu22, the cool thing about Lisp is that it's programmable. You can essentially define a new language within Lisp. 07:44:26 if i made a graphics program in lisp (say 2d sprites) can other people download and run it like an executable or do they need an entire lisp system installed? 07:44:47 zu22: you need to include the lisp runtime with your download. 07:44:58 gamers want to just download and play they don't even like installing extra libraries, etc. 07:45:07 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9941.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has left #lisp 07:45:11 (sb-ext:save-lisp-and-die "/path/to/file" :executable t) 07:45:15 H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9941.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 07:45:17 zu22: it depends on how you package your application, some Lisp implementations can create .exe files 07:45:26 H4ns: any idea how big this runtime is? 07:45:41 zu22, a few megs, depending on implementation. 07:45:42 tic: so that would be the script they'd run? 07:45:52 zu22, no, you'd run that. 07:45:55 oh 07:46:25 see i play this game called netrek and i was wondering about writing a bot 07:46:27 zu22: from where you are to a self-contained game executable is quite a long path with lisp. 07:46:35 the netrek server is written in C 07:46:49 for SBCL, a popular compiler in Linux, here's one way of doing it: http://mikael.jansson.be/journal/2008/03/freezing-lisp-in-time 07:46:55 can lisp read C sockets? 07:47:01 zu22: there are platforms which are targeted towards game programming and creating self-contained executables. common lisp is not such an environment. 07:47:04 you mean TCP sockets? 07:47:12 yes TCP and UDP 07:47:15 zu22, yes. 07:47:35 tic: thanks for the link 07:47:46 http://www.cliki.net/Current%20recommended%20libraries 07:47:56 H4ns: is that why lisp is not as popular as C++/Java since it is harder to make a self-contained executable? 07:48:09 zu22, Java isn't self-contained. 07:48:16 zu22: i'm not sure if that is "the reason". propably not. 07:48:18 Oh yeah you need the Java runtime./ 07:48:34 zu22, nor is C++, because you need libc.so. For most people, I believe it's the parens. 07:49:16 ah they are ()-averse heh 07:49:23 zu22: someone is working on getting udp sockets into usocket. 07:49:28 tic: no, for most people, it is the lack of commercially supported free implementations that make it easy to get started and create applications that use current technology, look beautiful and are easy to deploy. 07:49:38 meaning they will be portably available across most implementations. 07:49:46 ehu`: cool 07:49:48 -!- LeCamarade [n=LeCamara@41.222.7.35] has quit [Connection timed out] 07:51:06 H4ns, "looks beatuiful" is a nice definition; I find Lisp source beautiful. ;) 07:51:11 i like C because if you stick to ANSI you can have very portable code 07:51:42 tic: i actually looked at some lisp code and it was a bit inscrutable to me, i guess cause i don't know any of the syntax lol 07:51:53 or i am just a poor programmer 07:51:55 tic: yeah, lisp is more for people who admire code itself. 07:52:10 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 07:52:21 zu22: just read one of the good books that cover lisp. 07:52:27 H4ns: ok 07:52:54 If I spend 1 hour each day on Lisp how long until I will have all the basics mastered? 07:53:11 zu22: how can we tell? you might be stupid, or a genius. 07:53:17 -!- BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [] 07:53:23 zu22: 5 years! 07:53:26 lol probably in the middle 07:53:41 zu22: (really, just use lisp. You'll learn what you need as you go along) 07:53:46 ok 07:53:52 zu22, you'll get the syntax later. 07:54:02 syntax? 07:54:03 >_> 07:54:07 zu22, I like Lisp, because if you stick to ANSI CL you can have very portable code. 07:54:15 is it ok to ask questions in here? i mean some channels chew your head off if you ask a trivial question but trivial is often in the eye of the beholder. 07:54:20 sykopomp, there is syntax, just not very many magic characters. 07:54:32 tic: ah 07:54:36 zu22, if you accept the answer, it's usually OK. 07:54:43 zu22: if the question can't be easily answered by reading an introductory book or google, just ask. 07:54:43 ok 07:54:53 zu22: to be honest, you won't find a lot of help if it's obvious you didn't bother thinking, or if you refuse to read documentation. 07:55:11 sykopomp: what documentation ? 07:55:19 clhs 07:55:22 H4ns: well some channels assume 99.9% of questions can be answered with "google". discourse will be rather bad if everyone just says "go google it" but i see your point. 07:55:34 had someone ask me earlier what 'push' and 'pop' did. 07:55:37 :| 07:55:46 sykopomp: ah, well that's fair 07:56:06 the concept of push and pop seem language agnostic i thought 07:56:27 zu22: sometimes it's understandable to ask, because the explanation for what a symbol does can be a bit confusing. Or, in the case of LOOP or such, having the right 'formula' can be very complicated. 07:56:45 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 07:56:56 but it's generally expected that you'll check out sources like lisp books, or clhs, before asking questions (if those sources can answer them) 07:56:57 Heh. Loop is magic. 07:57:09 clhs? 07:57:13 Common Lisp Hyperspec. 07:57:16 ah 07:57:19 minion: clhs 07:57:20 clhs: To look up a symbol in the HyperSpec, try saying "clhs symbol". For more information on the HyperSpec see http://www.cliki.net/CLHS . 07:57:28 minion: clhs loop 07:57:29 you speak nonsense 07:57:30 zu22, I think your best bet is to start looking in the book I linked you to. 07:57:33 clhs lambda 07:57:33 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/a_lambda.htm 07:57:34 :( 07:57:38 sykopomp, http://l1sp.org/cl/loop 07:57:59 tic: ok will do, it sucks i don't have a printer right now, i don't like reading online too much it hurts my eyes but will try my best./ 07:58:22 zu22: you really need to have a _book_. 07:58:27 yeah 07:58:36 H4ns: yeah i like reading while on the toilet hehe 07:58:43 zu22: spare us the details 07:58:45 there's also some nice little printable reference pamphlets which are great. 07:58:48 :D 07:58:49 xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.238] has joined #lisp 07:58:53 I lost the link, though :( 07:59:04 sykopomp: oh pity 07:59:15 I'm sure someone here has it. 07:59:20 kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has joined #lisp 07:59:28 I have an emacs pamphlet it is great. 07:59:28 http://clqr.berlios.de/ 07:59:29 the cl quickref maybe? 07:59:59 yup, that one. :) 08:00:05 -just- found my pdf of it, too. Woo. 08:00:54 H4ns: hey, I have a quick question, which may be datastore-related, but may actually be lisp-dynamic-scope-related (or both) 08:01:02 great 08:01:41 I was assigning one object to a defvar'd variable. A persistent object. 08:01:49 zu22: i really recommend getting any text book that covers common lisp and read it back to back. there are quite a few out there, and none of the more recent ones will really influence you in a bad way (except maybe "let over lambda") 08:01:58 sykopomp: listening 08:02:20 Ogedei [n=user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #lisp 08:03:05 H4ns: well, I had another persistent object that was instantiated with *the-global-object* in one of its slots, and that would get setf'd to a transient slot, then setf'd back into the persistent slot. 08:03:22 important thing here is that it originated from the *var*, in the persistent slot 08:03:37 but after that little juggling act, the references were not eq 08:03:41 anyone else getting a lot of spam to their common-lisp.net mailing lists lately, or is it just mine? 08:03:56 Ogedei: that is going to be fixed soon, sorry. 08:04:21 sykopomp: i don't understand, can you paste some code that illustrates? 08:04:36 H4ns: cool, it's no real problem 08:05:42 H4ns: ok danke 08:05:56 Ogedei: i am very annoyed by that, too, as i have to clean out spam from the request tracker every day - but that ensures that the task is high on my priority list. problem is that i need to dig out my spamassassin configuration knowledge, which is buried on some hard disk. 08:07:03 I been getting a lot more spam in my main gmail account lately, started about a week ago. I used to average 1-2 a day and lately I've been getting like 12 :( 08:08:01 aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 08:10:03 -!- tomoyuki28jp [n=tomoyuki@w221062.ppp.asahi-net.or.jp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 08:10:37 elurin [n=user@88.224.106.157] has joined #lisp 08:13:50 sykopomp pasted "solved-ish, but curious as to why it happened" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68619 08:15:50 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 08:17:35 sykopomp: i still don't really get it, but is all this happing after the store has been initialized once? or are you restoring in between? 08:19:11 store was initialized once, and instances created. Those that went through initialization more than once got one datastore copy of the object, those that went through init only once got another 08:19:32 both objects registered as PERSISTENT-OBJECT ID: 08:20:16 sykopomp: that clearly is not right. objects with the same id are eq 08:20:23 they weren't 08:20:27 sykopomp: if they are not, you've run into a bug. 08:20:47 let me try and reproduce it again. I haven't messed around with it since I rewrote something to 'fix' it. 08:20:55 so I can get you specifics and all >_> 08:21:22 sykopomp: i will look at it if you can provide an isolated test case or give me access to a repl that can reproduce the problem. 08:21:30 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@3-025.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:21:41 do some lisps all LET to act like LET* ? 08:21:52 do some lisps allow LET to act like LET* ? 08:22:16 H4ns: I could certainly give you access to mine right now, if I had any idea how to go about doing that :P 08:22:23 let me paste stuff, though 08:22:23 dmiles_afk: clojure does that. 08:22:58 H4ns, so then actually LET and LET* in clojure means the same thing? 08:23:14 dmiles_afk: there is no let* in clojure, and let behaves like let* in cl 08:23:49 ah ok then, so does CYC's CLET 08:24:31 i was defining LET and about to define LET* based on CLET.. i guess they baoth are the same 08:25:01 sykopomp annotated #68619 with "eq => NIL" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68619#1 08:25:54 sykopomp annotated #68619 with "initialize-avatar" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68619#2 08:26:09 H4ns: I think that's about all the relevant stuff. 08:26:21 sykopomp: for starters, change your print-object method to print the object identity, too 08:26:53 sykopomp: when is initialize-avatar called? 08:27:26 whenever avatar is put into the world (on login) 08:29:14 sykopomp: i suspect that something with your transient slot initialization is wrong, but without seeing the problem in action, i can't be more specific. 08:30:43 sykopomp: try finding out which of the two locations is actuall eq to (find-store-object 5), that might give a clue 08:30:46 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 08:31:16 -!- zu22 [n=ubuntu@unaffiliated/zu22] has quit ["ircII EPIC4-2.2 -- Are we there yet?"] 08:31:26 H4ns: the one that belongs to sykopomp 08:31:37 foobar seems to hold the only two references to that object 08:31:43 (both in location and last-location) 08:31:58 sykopomp holds the same reference as (store-object-with-id 5), in both slots. 08:32:46 sykopomp: so *starting-area* holds a reference to an object that claims to be #5, but is something else, with respect to the current store? 08:32:57 yup, pretty much 08:33:28 sykopomp: did you save your image and restore with *starting-area* set to point to an object from when you saved your image? 08:33:44 and as soon as I restart the datastore, the reference in foobar's last-location actually changes to the 'real' starting-area 08:34:10 H4ns: *starting-area* is set after the datastore loads. 08:34:37 ah, yeah, sure. 08:34:49 unless it is already non-nil, of course. 08:34:59 NoorDextor [n=NoorDext@unaffiliated/noordextor] has joined #lisp 08:35:15 (judging from looking at the (unless *starting-area* in your paste 08:35:24 right 08:35:31 (pidgin can't auto-close parens) 08:35:57 (print "I love ERC") => I love ERC 08:36:21 so, is that your bug? 08:37:19 nope. Tried setting it to nil after unloading the database, and reinitializing, and it worked. 08:37:26 (worked as in... worked the same) 08:37:42 oh wait 08:37:45 ugh 08:37:47 oh, sweet. scieneer is free for non-commercial use now 08:38:18 nope! still the same problem! 08:38:26 http://www.scieneer.com/scl/free.html 08:38:35 the unless seems like it might cause problems, yeah, but that's not the source of this. 08:38:58 antifuchs: wow! 08:39:47 ehu`: not open source and so on, of course; but should work nicely to compare its features and performance to sbcl's (: 08:39:53 sykopomp: i need you to isolate the problem more in order to be able to diagnose and fix it. from what you told, it seems as if you are using a persistent object restored from the image. the store should detect that, but currently it does not. 08:39:54 <_3b> looked reasonably priced for commercial use too even 08:40:45 support contract, 6 incidents, 1 year: $1648.90. that's pretty good, too 08:40:52 H4ns: In create-avatar, if I change *starting-area* to (store-object-with-id 5), it works fine 08:41:00 that's the 'fix' I had, originally 08:41:18 looks low, even (: 08:41:20 sykopomp: yes. now, the question is how you get the reference to the old object. 08:41:45 -!- eevar [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 08:41:47 it's not even a reference to an old object, I think 08:42:12 sykopomp: what is it, then? 08:42:19 if it's to an old object, restarting the database should give me the new avatar's location's identity as an old identity, right? 08:42:23 presumably the allegro-like business model didn't quite work out, due to not being allegro 08:42:43 it seems like a brand-new one, the identities don't match after reinitializing stuff. 08:42:45 sykopomp: yes. 08:42:47 without restarting lisp 08:43:11 pre-restart: #< NAME:closet ID:5 {AF01371}> 08:43:13 cmm: my guess is that it has more to do with having fewer people available to do the sales, but I have no idea what scieneer's structure is 08:43:15 sykopomp: so after restoring, you get two new, distinct identities for the two locations which have the same id? 08:43:26 post-restart (on another new avatar): #< NAME:closet ID:5 {A6F7001}> 08:43:30 -!- AshyIsMe [n=User@b415.adsl.ecomtel.com.au] has quit ["Leaving"] 08:43:31 yup 08:44:02 and the wonky one is assigned to *starting-area*. That reference also seems to magically disappear after stuff is swapped out. 08:44:12 sykopomp: that is interesting. well, as i said, i would gladly fix the bug if it is a bug in the store, but i need to have a test case for that. 08:44:34 sykopomp: "swapped out" means what? 08:44:49 logging out, restarting the datastore, logging back it 08:44:51 in* 08:45:17 oh wait. Hmm. 08:45:21 it didn't change 08:45:53 well, if you want, you could try setting up my code yourself and giving it a shot. 08:46:11 although hunting down libraries is a bit of a hassle. 08:46:23 sykopomp: i need an isolated test case, really 08:46:42 hm 08:47:05 xjrn [n=jim@c-69-181-213-99.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 08:47:09 I'll look into it tomorrow night and figure it out. I'll try and get one by this weekend for you. :) 08:47:20 -!- jao [n=user@129.Red-83-42-110.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Connection timed out] 08:47:40 sykopomp: ok. 08:47:57 H4ns: thanks for the help, and patience :) 08:48:18 hiho 08:49:30 antifuchs: smells like a one-man shop, but what do I know? best of luck to them anyway, a supported server-oriented cmu-family implementation might surely be useful to people 08:55:10 -!- dmiles_afk [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 08:55:14 dmiles [n=dmiles@c-67-168-159-175.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:11:05 -!- pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-24-21-161-25.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:12:52 trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has joined #lisp 09:13:06 Odin- [n=sbkhh@adsl-2-92.du.snerpa.is] has joined #lisp 09:13:08 Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-137.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 09:13:15 hello. 09:14:41 -!- pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:15:11 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 09:16:58 jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 09:17:34 SimonAdameit [n=simon@rlh.mediascape.de] has joined #lisp 09:21:52 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.5] has joined #lisp 09:23:24 dash__ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-042-022.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 09:25:00 netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:25:39 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 09:26:08 -!- Soulman__ [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 09:26:22 Soulman [n=kae@gatekeeper.vizrt.com] has joined #lisp 09:28:16 netaust1n__ [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 09:28:54 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:29:04 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 09:29:48 wow, that's quite interesting 09:29:56 *Xach* has wanted to peek at scl for some time 09:30:18 ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has joined #lisp 09:30:51 -!- yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:31:34 -!- netaust1n_ [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 09:32:29 abeaumont [n=abeaumon@166.pool85-54-98.dynamic.orange.es] has joined #lisp 09:33:27 ThomasI [n=thomas@unaffiliated/thomasi] has joined #lisp 09:33:30 *lichtblau* must try the "URLs are valid as pathnames" thing in scl 09:33:56 And those fabulous extensible streams, of course. 09:34:01 Free SCL, neat! 09:34:08 jgracin [n=jgracin@78-0-73-87.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 09:37:02 Ah, gratis SCL, less neat. 09:37:20 -!- dash_ [n=dash@dslb-084-057-057-053.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:38:19 -!- netaust1n [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:39:49 -!- Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:39:51 -!- pierre_thierry [n=pierre@black.delerce.fr] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 09:40:34 -!- kuhzoo [n=kuhzoo@office.01.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:41:11 If we write an AI in scienner, without trying to sell that AI (that'd be slave trading), and this AI starts to work to earn its life, it would not be "commercial use", would it? 09:43:28 -!- echo-area [n=user@nat/yahoo/x-852000cbc78917b5] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 09:43:50 haven't you destroyed the software industry enough already? 09:43:57 is that how you were born? 09:45:51 pstickne__ [n=pstickne@c-71-236-177-238.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 09:46:18 -!- elurin [n=user@88.224.106.157] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 09:48:20 Draggor [n=Draggor@216-80-120-145.alc-bsr1.chi-alc.il.static.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 09:48:53 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[n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has quit [] 11:39:03 Reaver_12 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 11:39:21 -!- Ogedei [n=user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:40:28 younder [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has joined #lisp 11:40:50 -!- younder [n=jpthing@212251245078.customer.cdi.no] has left #lisp 11:41:42 s_p [n=s_p___@luwifi.lanet.lv] has joined #lisp 11:42:46 timor101 [n=icke@w0581.dip.tu-dresden.de] has joined #lisp 11:43:20 are there any drawbacks to using defstruct as opposed to using defclass and having to type all slot names three times? 11:43:30 yes. 11:43:47 antifuchs: tell me more 11:43:53 for example, you can redefine classes with different layouts/slots as you develop your software 11:44:07 hello antifuchs 11:44:25 -!- gcartier [n=gcartier@modemcable245.1-80-70.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 11:44:29 structure redefinition is undefined behavior, and several impls will refuse to talk to you if you do it (you'll have a demon hanging from your nostril, which is considered rude) 11:44:45 hey mvilleneuve 11:44:48 how's it going? 11:45:34 timor101: also, somethingmumble-slot isn't the best name to use for something's slot value... IIRC there was an article by KMP about this topic somewhere 11:45:58 timor101: if it is the amount of typing that worries you, you might want to look at defclass-star, which saves you from some of that. most seasoned clos programmers do not use such macros, though, as they obscure what symbols are created. 11:46:19 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:50:09 antifuchs: KMP? 11:50:19 Kent Pitman 11:50:23 ok 11:50:58 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 11:51:13 but I may be misremembering. it was an article in some publication whose name I forgot... 11:52:54 matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has joined #lisp 11:53:08 ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has joined #lisp 11:54:09 antifuchs: Tim Moore's article? http://cybertiggyr.com/gene/80-closminded/ 11:54:28 agh, exactly that one. 11:54:30 thanks, mvilleneuve (: 11:55:23 antifuchs: you're welcome! :) 11:55:36 antifuchs: so its nicer to use classes because if someone wants to use my software they can just redefine the class without having to worry their kitten may die? 11:56:10 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 11:56:29 timor101: actually, it's nicer for you as well, as you can just re-shape your program while it's running without having to restart your image and having to reload all your code 11:56:47 antifuchs: point proven 11:56:52 it's better for the style of incremental development that works so well with cl (: 11:57:40 I find classes easier to deal with, in general. And come on, how can you not love multimethods? :D 11:57:57 -!- Reaver_11 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has quit [Connection timed out] 11:58:17 timor101: one downside of classes, though, is that they're a bit bulkier (according to sbcl's manual) than class-based objects. 11:58:18 antifuchs: perhaps my oo thinking is too narrow, but usually if i wanted to modify my structure i used the :inherit thingy 11:58:34 so I guess they can be used as a bit of a performance hack 11:58:34 sykopomp: multimethods? 11:58:48 antifuchs: and made an offspring 11:58:49 timor101: the bestest-ever part of CLOS, yes. 11:58:50 -!- me-so-stupid [n=semka@77.236.84.166] has quit ["Leaving"] 11:59:05 timor101: <3 methods 11:59:22 sykopomp: they work on defstructed thingies as well, no? 11:59:27 timor101: that's an option, of course, but doesn't that lead to having to modify all make-something-struct calls into make-something-struct-v2 calls? 11:59:30 they do? 11:59:35 sykopomp: you can specialize methods on structure classes as well (: 11:59:36 news to me >_> 11:59:40 antifuchs: omg >_> 12:00:00 can you use the MOP on them too?... 12:00:11 umm, that, not so much (: 12:00:15 ah ;p 12:00:29 Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has joined #lisp 12:00:30 antifuchs: yes, that is because i would have to track what i redefined in my head if i modified the same class instead of subclassing 12:00:32 still, I didn't know methods could specialize on defstructs. That's really cool. 12:01:15 they can specialize on pretty much everything 12:01:36 if you (mis-)use the power of deftype 12:01:49 -!- Reaver_1 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has quit [Client Quit] 12:02:28 antifuchs: oh, you meant when i wanted to change existing behaviour 12:03:16 antifuchs: yes, my programs probably critical enough to not be able to hot C-c C-l real fast 12:03:16 timor101: exactly (: 12:03:52 ... probably _werent_ critical _yet_ to ... 12:03:54 usually, the class access time and storage space overhead isn't that great 12:04:13 at least, to outweigh the benefits of being able to get stuff developed quickly 12:04:48 and if you find a bottleneck (lots of unoptimizable inner-loop slot accesses), you can make the thing a struct pretty easily anyway 12:05:07 outsourcing... 12:05:10 :) 12:05:21 Maghnus [n=Maghnus@68-190-147-184.dhcp.eucl.wi.charter.com] has joined #lisp 12:05:36 gotta get some food, thanks for the ideas so far 12:05:55 -!- timor101 [n=icke@w0581.dip.tu-dresden.de] has quit ["Verlassend"] 12:10:08 stassats [n=stassats@ppp78-37-14-77.pppoe.avangarddsl.ru] has joined #lisp 12:10:32 jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has joined #lisp 12:12:21 -!- authentic [n=authenti@85-127-181-250.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:12:49 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:14:26 mulligan` [n=user@e178009036.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 12:14:33 -!- s_p [n=s_p___@luwifi.lanet.lv] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:16:11 tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2FD47.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:17:33 s_p [n=s_p___@eduroam.lu.lv] has joined #lisp 12:20:13 vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has joined #lisp 12:20:53 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 12:25:36 dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 12:25:45 hmm, wrote a tutorial on using cl-glut with common lisp but have had hardly any response, do you guys think i should continue with more advanced stuff or is no one interested in this area? (lol) 12:26:06 malune: continue and be patient 12:27:03 Xach: k, next up is vertex buffer objects. 12:27:16 -!- s_p [n=s_p___@eduroam.lu.lv] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 12:27:26 where is that tutorial? 12:27:45 authentic [n=authenti@85-127-181-250.dynamic.xdsl-line.inode.at] has joined #lisp 12:27:53 on my blog: http://cmalune.wordpress.com 12:27:54 *Xach* has shirked his linking responsibility 12:27:55 A tutorial is newer a waste of time. 12:28:00 -!- pchrist_ [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has quit ["leaving"] 12:28:02 -!- tiesje [n=user@202.63.242.211] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 12:28:08 brill: i wish that were true :~( 12:28:08 eh. never. 12:28:17 i have seen some tutorials that make you stupider 12:28:24 -!- mulligan [n=user@e178049054.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:28:34 pchrist [n=spirit@gentoo/developer/pchrist] has joined #lisp 12:28:41 There's always someone needing just that info at that level of devel. 12:28:48 rsynnott_ [n=rsynnott@87-198-231-166.ptr.magnet.ie] has joined #lisp 12:29:08 i mean the tutorial was misleading, misguided, wrong, etc 12:29:10 -!- rsynnott_ [n=rsynnott@87-198-231-166.ptr.magnet.ie] has quit [Client Quit] 12:29:17 not that it was too basic for my giant brain 12:29:21 that must be the belief behind all the thousands of monad tutorials out there? 12:29:22 rsynnott_ [n=rsynnott@87-198-231-166.ptr.magnet.ie] has joined #lisp 12:29:28 Xach: So have I. I have even seen tutorials that contain outdated info. :-) 12:29:29 -!- Reaver_12 [n=m@193.108.254.83] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:29:30 Xach: whats wrong with it? plz tell me so that i can improve it?? 12:29:56 malune: Your tutorial is great. I'm just not fully agreeing that no tutorials are a waste of time. 12:30:38 Some info is better than none at all. 12:30:39 hmm, my facebook app is broken :( 12:30:41 mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-083-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 12:30:48 cl-facebook probably needs a bit of an overhaul 12:31:05 Xach: ah, ok. I have seen some bad tutorials also, usually when someone makes something really complex when it is actually very simple. 12:33:38 One thing that irks me is when tutorials have complete source code examples, but expect me copy&paste those into the right files myself in order to try them. Way too much work. 12:33:48 I'm much more likely to try things (and read the text) when I see that I just have to right-click-and-download a functional file for the shiny results. 12:33:54 -!- plutonas [n=plutonas@h-188-232.A189.priv.bahnhof.se] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 12:34:42 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 12:35:03 lichtblau: I'm just doing that. And now I can't reproduce the tutorials result when makin' my own files. 12:35:20 Now THAT's a time consumer. 12:35:40 rsynnott_: How is your CL port of thrift going? 12:35:52 dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 12:36:00 yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 12:37:39 vy: Working, client-only, but can't release for the moment 12:38:01 (employer owns it, not me :) ) 12:38:38 there is anouther one, though: http://collison.ie/code/thrift-cl.patch 12:38:48 (it's very similar anyway) 12:39:34 lichtblau: interesting, i will modify my tutorial at some point to include a link to downloadable src 12:39:39 though I use (sbcl-specific) direct socket reads/writes rather than a stream 12:40:01 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B86C60.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 12:41:10 Xach: Nice site of yours. Just been lookin'. 12:41:16 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 12:41:34 *Xach* looks for a figleaf 12:44:14 Xach: How far did you take cl-flash? 12:44:46 brill: far enough to do simple old-style flash movies. not realistic for modern flash work. Gordon is much more advanced. 12:45:07 http://xach.com/img/flash/square.html was my last interesting movie 12:45:45 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 12:46:04 Shinishi [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 12:46:04 -!- Shinishi [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit [Client Quit] 12:46:10 Shinishi [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 12:46:24 Ok. There's a lot of nice ideas here. 12:46:33 -!- Shinishi [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit [Client Quit] 12:46:58 chitech [n=khuongdp@82.143.212.234] has joined #lisp 12:47:04 Shinishi [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has joined #lisp 12:47:04 -!- Shinishi [i=osm@27.85-200-158.bkkb.no] has quit [Client Quit] 12:47:21 What is Gordon? 12:47:34 a more advanced CL Flash library 12:47:42 and a terrible, terrible play on words 12:47:43 Ah. cl-gordon 12:47:43 athos [n=philipp@p54B87510.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 12:48:08 Yeah. But so was Ming. :-) 12:49:25 Ogedei [n=user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #lisp 12:53:21 deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has joined #lisp 12:53:33 cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has joined #lisp 12:54:53 rsynnott_: You use CL in auctomatic also? 12:55:07 hugopt [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has joined #lisp 12:56:45 vy: that person isn't me :) 12:57:01 Xach: haha, awesome: http://flickr.com/photos/xach/2679185977/ 12:57:02 it's a different Irish person who also wrote a CL thrift binding 12:57:41 also http://flickr.com/photos/xach/2680007960/in/photostream/ 12:57:48 Xach: On a bit of a crusade? 12:58:41 that was just for tic's amusement! 12:59:05 didn't someone come on and talk about how they were using vim 12:59:05 rsynnott_: Why didn't you use that CL port and instead rolled your owns? 12:59:16 posted some screenies and you whipped those up 12:59:28 that someone is tic 12:59:33 ok :) 12:59:42 vy: Because I needed one before that one existed :) 13:00:12 um.. how do I do a non-blocking read in CL? 13:00:23 clhs read-char-no-hang 13:00:24 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/f_rd_c_1.htm 13:00:28 thanks 13:00:59 spacebat_: your options are somewhat limited 13:01:30 LISTEN might also come in handy. 13:01:48 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 13:03:29 -!- hugopt is now known as hugo 13:03:36 name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has joined #lisp 13:04:46 antgreen [n=green@bas2-toronto06-1279542688.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 13:05:32 -!- mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-083-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 13:05:45 mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-083-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 13:05:57 LISTEN looks like it will be useful, along with READ-SEQUENCE 13:06:21 I'm playing around trying to get shelisp working in ECL 13:06:27 not quite useful on binary-only streams. 13:06:31 what's shelisp? 13:06:46 some shell-ish lisp functions 13:07:05 the idea being to make the repl a bit shelly 13:07:12 Serva [n=Serva@129.21.78.55] has joined #lisp 13:07:50 rsynnott_: Does such a Thrift port really needs some C++ glue code? I always thought it's all about creating a parser for the message decoded in thrift by looking at a specification file, or creating appropriate encoding functions in CL. Is Irish implementation fully complete? 13:07:54 I know there is scsh and rep, but they're not CL 13:09:23 should emulate the scsh #[] reader macro. 13:09:39 add | and > 13:09:54 good morning. 13:10:12 what debugging tools I can use for clisp programs 13:10:27 clisp or common lisp programs? 13:10:41 (clisp is a compiler; common lisp is the language and is abbreviated Lisp or CL) 13:11:00 vy: That C++ in the patch is to modify thrift's compiler to produce s-exps 13:11:04 Serva: trace, break and the debugger. 13:11:06 serva: i use trace and slime, *break-on-signals* is handy, too 13:11:08 the gneerated code is all lisp 13:11:09 clhs trace 13:11:10 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/m_tracec.htm 13:11:10 common lisp programs evaluated on clisp 13:11:17 good idea tic 13:11:21 clhs *break-on-signals* 13:11:21 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/v_break_.htm 13:11:43 specbot, I think pjb pointed me towards something similar to that which he was working on. 13:11:48 eh, spacebat. 13:12:12 interesting 13:12:22 don't have the source around, but ask him next time he's on. 13:12:41 this is just a learning thing for me, will be interesting to see someone else's take 13:13:33 spacebat: are you reading from a socket? usocket:wait-for-input might be the right function. 13:13:41 borism [n=boris@allikas.gospa.ee] has joined #lisp 13:14:06 talking to a subprocess via bidirectional stream 13:14:56 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 13:15:36 okay, so an ordinary pipe? don't know how to use usocket with that. the actual wait-for-input routine can't be that different though. 13:16:34 yeah, I think LISTEN will help me ensure that READ-SEQUENCE doesn't block 13:17:01 but if one or the other doesn't play well with binary streams I may have to re-evaluate 13:24:23 spacebat_: nope. read-sequence will block if it doesn't have enough data. no way to ensure anything. 13:25:15 oh you're right 13:25:25 *Xach* ran into that issue when working on the quicknet proof-of-concept 13:25:41 meh... I want just as many characters as available 13:25:51 guess I have to read char by char 13:26:11 Does SCL come with source? 13:26:13 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 13:26:33 *Xach* didn't go through the registration process to try it yet 13:29:00 -!- haiwei [n=haiwei@192.9.202.3] has quit ["Leaving."] 13:30:26 -!- hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279776314.dsl.bell.ca] has quit [] 13:31:41 Serva pasted "a* search" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68625 13:32:40 -!- rsynnott_ [n=rsynnott@87-198-231-166.ptr.magnet.ie] has quit [] 13:32:52 kuwabara [n=Kuwabara@cerbere.qosmos.com] has joined #lisp 13:33:45 In the function a-star-search, I am checking a node for goal conditions. Upon executing on command line, it does not seem to be giving any errors but when executed as a whole program, it is giving error in check goal function, when I am trying to compare :value field -- malformed property list 13:34:06 I am running this program with (a-star-search start grid 0 nil nil 0) 13:34:32 just a hint: you can have default values for arguments. 13:35:53 (defun a*-search start grid &optional (foo 0) (bar nil) (baz nil) (quux 0)) ...) 13:36:10 pkhuong: i tried to download it, but my request got put on hold. the license i agreed to makes me think source is not available. 13:36:44 the registration is a bit obnoxious. if you're going to put all countries in alphabetical order, why not put the best ones near the top so they're easier to find? 13:36:55 roflcakes 13:37:18 tic, got the point and I am making the changes. But this check goal error is not related to this, right? 13:37:25 Xach: and who would decide what "better" is, eh? 13:37:42 Serva, no. 13:37:43 vote on the internetz! 13:38:44 antifuchs: it's not so bad for you, you're from "Austria" 13:38:56 that's practically first 13:39:06 that's right. I only have to skip through the ones with special characters and numbers in front 13:39:19 could be worse; there are at least three ways that people put 'Ireland' into those forms (Ireland, Eire, Republic of Ireland) 13:39:31 (and in at least one case, 'The Republic of Ireland') 13:40:15 rsynnott: I still have to learn under which circumstances to look for the various ways to say England 13:40:28 Xach: maybe you should start a campaign to get the United States renamed to AAACountry. 13:40:38 or Aardvarkvania. 13:40:49 Serva annotated #68625 with "manual evaluation" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68625#1 13:41:01 kreuter: best to make it start with a space character (: 13:41:07 antifuchs: arbitrary, though 'England' is rarely used on those as it's not a soverign nation 13:41:13 rsynnott: exactly (: 13:41:20 just use your diplomatic clout to move the letter U to the front of the alphabet 13:41:26 tic, the check-goal condition returns nil - if I execute it on command prompt manually 13:41:52 there's also some confusion over whether 'Britain' and 'United Kingdom' are the same thing 13:42:22 presumably the latter includes Canada and Australia? 13:42:24 who's confused about this? 13:42:31 cmm: that still leaves me with a Uganda problem :-) 13:42:47 buy vim 13:43:13 Britain is sometimes used to mean just Scotland, England and Wales 13:43:17 chandler: bah 13:43:19 I would prefer to have the option to select by ISO two-letter country code, so I can just type "us" and move on 13:43:23 (excluding Northern Ireland and a few random dependencies) 13:43:36 rather than "un" down-arrow down-arrow 13:43:48 those codes are obsolete now, aren't they? They moved to three-letter ones, I think 13:43:50 Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has joined #lisp 13:44:01 chandler: not to mention that "un" often gets you around Namibia. 13:44:11 Scroll panes are a pretty bad UI choice in general. 13:44:26 what's a better UI choice? 13:44:33 command line! 13:44:34 kreuter: Hm. I haven't had that problem in quite a while. 13:44:37 fullscreen animated map? 13:44:39 electronic passports 13:44:41 those combo box things were quite nice 13:44:43 well, chandler's suggestion is good. 13:44:49 but they never made it to the web 13:44:52 "click your country on the map. if you can't find it, click here for the United States" 13:45:08 (due to lowest common denominator UI design decisions) 13:45:18 felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has joined #lisp 13:46:43 *Xach* is reminded of the problems microsoft faced when embedding country borders into their windows configuration process 13:46:50 the animated zoomy map widget in GNOME for selecting timezones is a royal pane (pun intended). I always wind up in northwest Indiana instead of the rather more popular Chicago. 13:47:06 (you'd still have a list, but as a completion feature. plus isearch in the completion choice.) 13:50:00 Xach: I just received download links! 13:50:25 pkhuong: ditto. but you'll have to donate blood to get it working. 13:50:35 *Xach* had to enter his mac address to embed in the license key file 13:51:21 oh well. If only that had been available when a Sun E4500 was still the biggest iron I had access to (: 13:52:20 sidewinder128 [n=chatzill@nttkyo589168.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 13:52:30 -!- sidewinder128 [n=chatzill@nttkyo589168.tkyo.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has left #lisp 13:52:31 oh, companies face protest by even INCLUDING Israel and/or Palestine in country listings 13:52:34 never mind maps 13:53:09 *Xach* managed to download the 32 bit version accidentally 13:53:25 and does it have source? 13:53:28 -!- Ogedei [n=user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 13:53:34 no. 13:53:55 ahh, memories. "Received EOF on *STANDARD-INPUT*, switching to *TERMINAL-IO*." 13:53:56 how many ****** versions of the thing are there?! 13:54:12 pkhuong: it seems to support every platform under the sun 13:54:14 the 32 bit version for "rhel4" worked fine on ubuntu, anyway. 13:54:22 meingbg [n=user@remote2.student.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 13:55:21 rsynnott: i'm more referring to: [extended precision FP or not] * [`modern' mode or not] * [bigmap or not] 13:55:29 ah 13:55:36 oh, it has bloody modern mode as well? 13:55:46 what's bigmap? 13:55:54 support for more memory 13:56:00 -!- dnm [n=dnm@c-68-49-46-251.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [] 13:56:14 a lisp for all seasons 13:56:31 I wonder how well its multithreading works 13:56:32 does scl still use ELI? 13:56:52 it could be the only sensible implementation for use on an Ultrasparc T1/2[e]! 13:57:18 -!- meingbg [n=user@remote2.student.chalmers.se] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 13:57:53 (it also seems to be the only impl for Itanium, albeit emulated) 13:57:59 lichtblau: the slime backend sees occasional commits by dtc, if that says anything 13:58:09 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.180.67] has joined #lisp 13:59:43 hmm, it's not actually very expensive 14:00:21 meingbg [n=user@remote2.student.chalmers.se] has joined #lisp 14:01:38 rsynnott: does it actually claim to run under Dynamo? 14:02:16 Running Lisp under a JIT translator can be problematic. qemu-user-* does not run SBCL or OpenMCL, nor does Rosetta. 14:02:21 "A variant of this port also runs on the 64 bit IA64 HPUX 11 platform using HPPA emulation - contact us for more information." 14:02:29 Interesting. 14:02:32 so, maybe :) 14:02:43 it doesn't mention dynamo, so it could be something else 14:02:50 I think that is the emulator they're using. 14:03:13 xinming_ [n=hyy@125.109.240.140] has joined #lisp 14:03:44 I can imagine that actually writing an efficient compiler targetting IA64 would be incredibly painful 14:04:02 -!- kij [n=user@pc.tv2.dk] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:04:04 A native Itanium port would be even more impressive, of course. I could imagine some creative uses for the instruction set in a Lisp compiler. 14:04:06 sounds fun to me 14:04:47 IIRC, the compiler is more or less expected to do its own scheduling 14:04:57 (though Intel may have tools to help with that) 14:05:48 Ogedei [n=user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #lisp 14:08:40 ... misleadingly designed download page. I clicked on the x86 instead of the amd64 link (and didn't realise until I disassembled something and saw x87 noise). 14:10:01 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:10:34 pkhuong: me too 14:10:44 except for me it was (integer-length most-positive-fixnum) 14:10:59 Tordek [n=tordek@host53.190-227-47.telecom.net.ar] has joined #lisp 14:11:59 milanj [n=milan@79.101.170.20] has joined #lisp 14:12:30 pkhuong: did you get a personal email from douglas t? 14:12:57 yes. Or at least a very good script 14:15:23 they're pretty helpful; I emailed them a while back to ask about licensing costs for a T1000 (at the time the page indicated that licensing costs were per logical processor) and they just said that's fine; they'd count the T1 as one processor 14:15:53 (at the time there were a load of very cheap T1000s available and it looked like a viable replacement for x86s) 14:16:21 -!- xinming [n=hyy@125.109.240.238] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:16:30 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:16:44 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.180.67] has quit [] 14:16:53 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 14:17:42 reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has joined #lisp 14:17:51 -!- jtoy [n=jtoy@58.63.218.55] has quit [] 14:23:57 Is there a function in lisp that can check if the given list is a plist? 14:25:04 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:25:29 Serva: not builtin. 14:25:52 Serva, I suggest you read the chapter in PCL on evaluation rules. 14:26:04 -!- athos [n=philipp@p54B87510.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 14:26:14 eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 14:26:17 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 14:26:27 (and (listp object) (loop for (key) on object by #'cddr always (symbolp key))) 14:26:50 nah 14:27:06 (typep (list-length x) '(and integer (satisfies evenp))) 14:27:16 you need both of those :-) 14:28:21 oh, no, look, I'm wrong 14:28:31 indicators are arbitrary objects 14:29:19 *Xof* approximately recovers from an encounter with bad RAM. (yes, haha, after all these years, karma has come to bite me) 14:33:38 hugo_ [n=hugo@89-180-241-185.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 14:37:28 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 14:38:26 Serva pasted "generate-successors" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68631 14:38:58 My generate-successor function is not returning plists.. but I am first creating a plist.. and then *only* pushing it into neighbors list 14:39:03 acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has joined #lisp 14:39:11 -!- jdz [n=jdz@85.254.248.11] has quit ["Somebody rebooted me"] 14:39:30 disumu [n=disumu@p57A256B5.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 14:39:45 tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:40:12 mmm s-exp soup 14:41:13 -!- Zoba [i=Zoba@wva4448rn.rh.ncsu.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 14:41:17 Serva: That code looks pretty bad actually. 14:41:52 hello spiaggia 14:42:12 hello mvilleneuve 14:42:15 spiaggia, I am computing four successors based on four possible directions i.e. north, south, left, and right 14:42:43 ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.141.58] has joined #lisp 14:42:50 Serva: Lots of code duplication, bad indentation, wrong number of semicolons, IFs without else branches. 14:43:18 Oh 14:43:59 The code duplications is only about creating four successors.. for four directions i.e. north, south, left, and right 14:44:21 good thing you don't need 20 successors! 14:44:24 I thought of creating a function which will accept those plist values as args.. and return a plist node 14:44:32 -!- b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:44:41 but I'll still be passing the same number of args to that function 14:46:34 jikanter [n=jordan@dsl093-114-131.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 14:46:55 how long approximately does it take to dump a new cmucl-core? 14:47:45 excuse me, on a typical i386, single-core machine. 14:47:54 spiaggia.. my earlier question about plist getting converted to a normal list by the function... do you also see a reason for that 14:48:04 you have i386 multi-cores? 14:48:31 ehu`: no i guess not. 14:48:33 jikanter: hmm, i'm not sure many people here still use cmucl. is dumping a new cmucl core something you do at runtime with SAVE-LISP, or is it something else? 14:48:43 *Xach* isn't up on the jargon 14:48:44 time lisp -eval '(save-lisp "test.core")' # real 0m0.153s 14:48:54 Serva: in general, I stop looking at code when I see the first badly indented line, because that means I would have to count parentheses to understand the code. 14:49:07 Xach: I just did a "dpkg-reconfigure common-lisp-controller" 14:49:07 (indeed something tells me that wasn't the question, but still) 14:49:19 jikanter: oh. i don't know anything about that, sorry. 14:49:34 Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has joined #lisp 14:49:52 spiaggia, i am using lisp-mode on emacs.. and all indentation is done in that mode only 14:50:15 lichtblau: that is what I am going to do... next... if the current dumping takes more than another hour. 14:50:40 Serva annotated #68631 with "indent-corrected" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68631#1 14:51:09 -!- ecraven [n=nex@140.78.42.104] has quit ["bbl"] 14:52:23 -!- ace4016 [i=ace4016@cpe-76-87-87-37.socal.res.rr.com] has quit ["When there's nothing left to burn, you have to set yourself on fire."] 14:53:00 *burp* 14:53:21 -!- milanj [n=milan@79.101.170.20] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:53:51 Serva: there seems to be potential of reducing code by using a function. 14:54:24 The else part for the if-else clause isnt needed in this case, because if the algorithm can't move to top (for e.g.) .. there's no reason to report nil in the successor states.. the successor states, thus, will always hhave only legal states 14:54:33 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@78-0-73-87.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit ["Leaving"] 14:54:56 jfm3` [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 14:55:01 trbor_win, something like creating a make-node function, and passing the required args 14:55:01 Serva: if you do not need the else-part, why not use (when ..)? 14:55:18 sure, that's my bad .. correcting it 14:55:33 Serva: I don't believe that. 14:56:16 -!- eevar2 [n=jalla@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit ["This computer has gone to sleep"] 14:56:39 Serva: the last line starting with (not in the condition of the if is badly indented, plus you duplicated a line with bad indentation it seems. 14:57:09 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 14:57:21 -!- vy [n=user@213.139.194.86] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 14:57:28 Serva: when is the due date for your coursework? 14:57:49 It was yesterday 14:58:09 Serva: cool. enough time to read a book now and take it easy. 14:58:17 I'll loose 10% today 14:58:30 -!- mishok13 [n=gdmfsob@dm.sonopia.com] has quit [Connection timed out] 14:59:04 Serva: and you lines that start with keyword symbols are aligned in the middle of the expression on the previous line. 14:59:34 Serva: If you were my student, and you handed in a program that looked like that, I would fail you anyway. 15:00:32 spiaggia, in every when (earlier if) clause, the third condition I am checking is if the next state value is not "*".. if it is not, I assign the same value to the successor state.. that's why it does look like code duplication 15:00:54 Serva: what are you using to edit? 15:00:58 emacs 15:01:06 in lisp-mode 15:01:41 -!- silenius [n=jl@yian-ho03.nir.cronon.net] has quit [] 15:02:00 for a code line like (not (string= (nth (- (getf parent :column) 1) (nth (getf parent :row) entire-grid)) "*")) ... what could be the correct indentation 15:02:39 it doesn't just look like code duplication, it *is* code duplication. And that's much worse than the little formatting glitches in my opinion. 15:04:03 Serva: what lichtblau said. 15:04:48 Serva: try something with incf 15:04:51 -!- x6j8x [n=x6j8x@tmo-106-1.customers.d1-online.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:05:21 -!- jfm3` [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has left #lisp 15:05:39 -!- jikanter [n=jordan@dsl093-114-131.chi2.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:05:57 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:06:02 yeah, maybe also bind variables to all the primary variables instead of using GETF all over 15:06:20 destructuring-bind to the rescue, if you need to have plists in the first place 15:06:25 -!- ejs [n=eugen@80.91.178.218] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 15:06:26 rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has joined #lisp 15:07:19 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 15:07:46 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:07:52 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 15:08:00 incf.. actually increments the value and sets the new value for the variable .. I am doing a (+ (getf :parent :row) 1) .. not setting a new value for the row 15:08:19 alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 15:08:21 -!- Krystof [i=csr21@158.223.51.76] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:23 [Head|Rest] [n=macosx@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 15:08:26 parent* 15:08:40 -!- jfm3 [n=user@c-98-221-176-228.hsd1.nj.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:08:48 Serva: what are you implementing? 15:09:03 mogunus, for this function? 15:09:27 or for the entire code 15:09:37 both, really. 15:09:42 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:09:56 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45115.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:09:58 A . * . 15:10:04 . . . B 15:10:15 If this is the problem state space 15:10:26 my algo should start from A and reach B 15:10:35 -!- kiuma [n=kiuma@83-103-78-224.ip.fastwebnet.it] has quit ["Bye bye ppl"] 15:10:38 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 15:10:40 . is accessible.. but * is not 15:11:13 there is a dice which at the A point has a specific configuration (up 1 north 2 right 3).. 15:11:40 the dice can move to all four directions, one at a time... changing those configs on every move 15:12:01 but there can never be a 6 on up face of the dice on any of its move 15:12:30 ...ugh 15:12:39 so two constraints really.. 1. the state in the state space cant be * 2. the dice up can not be 6 15:13:45 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:13:58 -!- ManateeLazyCat [n=Andy@222.212.141.58] has quit [Connection timed out] 15:16:21 bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has joined #lisp 15:17:09 is there a way to specify a variable parameter to a format directive (like %*s with printf) ? 15:17:19 kuwabara: v 15:17:30 like: (format t "~vT" 42) for example 15:18:10 wow, great, thanks a lot, Xach ! 15:19:44 -!- segv [n=mb@p4FC1C57C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 15:21:11 mmmm... I can't find where it's documented in hyperspec 15:21:42 -!- bombshelter13 [n=bombshel@net2.senecac.on.ca] has quit [Client Quit] 15:21:44 kuwabara: http://l1sp.org/cl/22.3 15:21:55 -!- ehu` [i=3ed68bbd@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-6b8346df52c9e16c] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 15:21:57 Dealing with a binary lisp implementation that reports "LispWorks" and "5.0.2". Do I have any hope of getting SLIME to interact with this? 15:22:02 "In place of a prefix parameter to a directive, V (or v) can be used. In this case, format takes an argument from args as a parameter to the directive." 15:22:08 omg, i'm ashamed 15:22:12 thanks again 15:22:34 e271: slime works with lispworks in general. 15:23:10 -!- seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E45DED.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:23:23 *e271* smacks head. "Well, it would if COMPILE-FILE was present. Can I get SLIME to work as interpreted?" 15:23:57 e271: it might be possible, with some hoop-jumping. 15:24:04 e271: how did you end up with a lispworks like that? 15:24:33 A save-core-and-die binary probably. 15:24:52 e271: Well, I know how lispworks gets like that. I'm more curious about your specific situation. 15:25:16 For a research project from a partner that hasn't really read the OpenSource memo. 15:25:57 And here I am six months later, trying to duplicate some work. 15:27:02 -!- SimonAdameit [n=simon@rlh.mediascape.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 15:27:39 e271: i think you might be able to start lispworks, load the backend files without compiling, then start the swank server. in emacs you could use M-x slime-connect to connect to it. 15:28:06 -!- Ogedei [n=user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:28:09 That was along the same lines as I was thinking. Thanks for the advice. 15:31:21 auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has joined #lisp 15:31:41 tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 15:32:12 -!- l4ndfo_ is now known as l4ndfo 15:34:08 eevar_ [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 15:34:23 segv [n=mb@p4FC1EA2F.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:37:59 MHOOO [n=nah@0-083.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:38:13 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 15:39:27 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 15:44:43 vasa [n=kvirc@93.84.243.140] has joined #lisp 15:44:46 hi all 15:44:50 Ogedei [n=user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has joined #lisp 15:45:00 s_p [n=s_p___@77.241.163.216] has joined #lisp 15:45:01 plz advice library for sound and audio processing with lisp 15:45:15 -!- ignas [n=ignas@office.pov.lt] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 15:45:56 -!- trebor_win [n=none_ask@mail.dki.tu-darmstadt.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 15:47:34 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 15:49:31 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has joined #lisp 15:51:11 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@6-024.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 15:51:54 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 15:52:08 -!- aerique [i=euqirea@xs2.xs4all.nl] has quit ["..."] 15:52:16 Serva [n=Serva@dilip.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 15:53:46 Yuuhi [n=user@p5483FB90.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 15:54:59 beach: where may i find your pgpg public key? 15:55:14 specifically the one used to sign the Flexichain tarball 15:59:48 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@S01060016cbc4b572.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [] 16:01:16 replor [n=replor@ntkngw375028.kngw.nt.ftth.ppp.infoweb.ne.jp] has joined #lisp 16:03:13 -!- Ogedei [n=user@ip54508552.adsl-surfen.hetnet.nl] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:05:05 *twxfn* plays with xach's light-up-sign-generator 16:05:27 powered by Skippy, the Lisp GIF library 16:06:34 LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has joined #lisp 16:06:43 but you wrote skippy? 16:06:51 i did 16:08:14 this is handy 16:08:14 props 16:08:26 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@0-083.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 16:08:43 skippy, i mean 16:09:08 much of the stuff that powers wigflip.com is available as libraries at http://xach.com/lisp/ 16:10:07 MHOOO [n=nah@3-110.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:11:50 *Xach* needs to polish and release more 16:12:49 -!- rindolf [n=shlomi@bzq-219-139-216.static.bezeqint.net] has quit ["Yay! I'm a Llama again!"] 16:15:47 booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has joined #lisp 16:15:54 -!- Ijeroj__ [n=nah@6-024.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:16:03 vasa: beach might be a good person to ask about that 16:16:06 -!- yhara [n=yhara@84.215.12.221.megaegg.ne.jp] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 16:16:12 or spiaggia 16:16:27 ok, thx 16:18:40 _schulte_ [n=Eric@c-98-203-235-80.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:00 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has joined #lisp 16:23:55 ad in my gmail "Google's SWAT team is hiring. Open a file descriptor to Google today!" 16:24:03 oops, wrong channel; sorry :) 16:26:59 smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has joined #lisp 16:30:13 ths_ [n=ths@p549AD777.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 16:30:19 Xach, you need to change tag line. It's hard to fit in "The Lisp GIF library" into the Skippy theme song. 16:38:24 gz` [n=gz@209-6-158-10.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:39:51 -!- jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:40:27 jajcloz [n=jaj@209-6-216-149.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 16:41:01 BrianRice-mb [n=briantri@c-24-18-253-20.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 16:44:35 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-158-10.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:44:44 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AE111.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 16:46:07 -!- _schulte_ [n=Eric@c-98-203-235-80.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has left #lisp 16:46:31 -!- Nshag [i=user@Mix-Orleans-106-4-137.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 16:48:39 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 16:49:01 -!- reaver__ [n=reaver@212.88.117.162] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 16:53:13 enigmus_ [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 16:53:27 Trystam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-154-66.dc.dc.cox.net] has joined #lisp 16:55:18 cracki [n=cracki@sglty.kawo2.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 16:56:43 -!- Tristam [n=Tristam@ip98-169-154-66.dc.dc.cox.net] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 16:56:49 -!- Trystam is now known as Tristam 16:57:31 -!- gz` is now known as gz 16:58:13 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 16:58:17 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus_ 16:58:24 morning 16:58:26 -!- matley [n=matley@matley.imati.cnr.it] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 16:58:58 Good morning slyrus_. 16:59:25 chandler: I don't suppose you've had any problems building on x86/darwin lately? 16:59:32 -!- vasa [n=kvirc@93.84.243.140] has quit ["KVIrc 3.4.0 Virgo http://www.kvirc.net/"] 16:59:54 I built whatever I checked in last week, obviously :-) But I haven't done a build from HEAD since then. 17:01:04 b4|hraban [n=b4@0brg.xs4all.nl] has joined #lisp 17:03:06 kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has joined #lisp 17:03:35 ok, no, your stuff builds fine. I'm having problems after .15, but they seem to be dependent on what's in customize-target-features.lisp 17:03:51 quasi-heisenbuggy, it seems. rather annoying. 17:04:03 I've got it on two boxes, but pkhuong can't reproduce it. 17:04:04 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 17:04:41 Hm. I assume you're enabling threads? I don't build with threads. 17:04:44 -!- enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:05:11 moritz [n=moritz@U0f8c.u.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 17:05:20 hello 17:06:27 chandler: yeah, it looks to be lutex related 17:08:13 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 17:08:23 -!- vcgomes[away] is now known as vcgomes 17:08:41 and it's only after .15? that shouldn't have any affect on lutex-related things 17:10:01 x6j8x [n=x6j8x@77.21.43.186] has joined #lisp 17:10:39 mrsolo [n=mrsolo@nat/yahoo/x-5b203cc08afe780d] has joined #lisp 17:10:59 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-241-159.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 17:11:20 anyone german here who can help me? 17:11:24 if yes, please join #lisp.de 17:12:24 sykopomp|class [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has joined #lisp 17:13:36 moritz: Hello! Are you new here? 17:13:50 chandler: yeah, .15 and after. 17:14:16 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Success] 17:14:57 -!- envi^home [n=envi@220.121.234.156] has quit ["Leaving"] 17:15:18 -!- Bzek [n=SK_sj@mcc-dyn-30-190.kosnet.ru] has quit ["e v o L"] 17:16:19 beach: yes, and i'm about to flood this channel with a questions regarding common-lisp/cffi : 17:16:21 :) 17:17:17 moritz: That's fine I guess. But I don't know anything about that topic myself. Also, for code, don't paste it here; use lisppaste. 17:18:07 -!- holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:18:43  I wonder: is it possible with CFFI to convert e.g. a (Common-)Lisp function into a "foreign pointer" (and back again)? I'm trying to write a binding for a library and i'd like to write a lispish interface so that i can pass lisp functions (e.g. lambda expressions) as callbacks into the foreign library. for that i have written a "generic" callback with defcallback which accepts a foreign pointer as argument. my plan was to convert the given lisp func 17:19:32 -!- lemonodor [n=lemonodo@adsl-76-214-15-172.dsl.lsan03.sbcglobal.net] has quit [] 17:20:14 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 17:20:54 moritz: your message was truncated after "the given lisp func" 17:21:02 uh 17:21:21 [...]  the given lisp function to a foreign pointer and pass THAT as the argument to the library together with my generic callback. then the callback should evaluate that foreign pointer as a lisp function. at least that was the idea but i cannot figure out how to do the lisp-function <--> foreign pointer conversion necessary for that. 17:22:16 moritz: I'd set up a hash table or array and store my functions there, then pass the array index or hash key to foreign code. To call the function, look it up in the table first. 17:23:09 In some Lisps there are nicer, implementation-specific solutions. 17:23:56 lichtblau: hrrm. maybe i cannot get around that approach. 17:24:11 -!- malune [n=malune@bb-87-81-97-91.ukonline.co.uk] has quit [Read error: 54 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:25:21 damn. that would force me to think about multi-threading and keeping the hash table clean, etc.. 17:26:51 rme [n=rme@pool-70-105-127-108.chi.dsl-w.verizon.net] has joined #lisp 17:27:16 moritz: one portable solution would be to write a CFFI bridge to libffi, which can generate callbacks at runtime 17:27:21 manuel_ [n=manuel@HSI-KBW-085-216-061-130.hsi.kabelbw.de] has joined #lisp 17:28:47 -!- H4ns [n=Hans@p57BB9A31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:28:51 -!- H4ns1 is now known as H4ns 17:29:18 H4ns1 [n=Hans@p57BB9A31.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 17:29:42 Serva [n=Serva@dilip.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 17:30:36 chandler: never heard of libffi. will have a look at it, thanks 17:31:26 it's kind of unnecessary if your host Lisp supports dynamically-generated callbacks, but if it doesn't, you can use it for that (and with a portable interface) 17:33:11 -!- sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 17:33:20 sladegen [n=nemo@unaffiliated/sladegen] has joined #lisp 17:35:43 moritz: google callback-lambda for the cffi discussion at the time 17:36:36 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 17:42:09 dethstar [n=ObiWan@unaffiliated/dethstar] has joined #lisp 17:42:50 -!- dethstar [n=ObiWan@unaffiliated/dethstar] has left #lisp 17:44:20 -!- sbok [n=kobs@unaffiliated/kobs] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 17:49:36 hmm 17:50:17 calling STREAM-EXTERNAL-FORMAT on a closed stream signals an error. that is screwing me up right now. 17:50:50 (on sbcl) 17:51:31 jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has joined #lisp 17:51:33 *lichtblau* is surprised Xach hasn't joined #lisp.de yet 17:51:59 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=macosx@213.234.18.1] has quit [Connection reset by peer] 17:52:56 Ich sprechen nein Lispsch 17:53:04 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 17:53:07 lemonodor [n=lemonodo@66.43.112.62] has joined #lisp 17:53:29 milanj [n=milan@79.101.170.20] has joined #lisp 17:54:01 [Head|Rest] [n=macosx@213.234.18.1] has joined #lisp 17:54:41 -!- seelenquell_ is now known as seelenquell 17:57:24 Ijeroj__ [n=nah@6-091.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has joined #lisp 17:57:48 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:58:05 sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has joined #lisp 17:58:18 -!- benny` [n=benny@i577A128C.versanet.de] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 17:58:21 sbok [n=kobs@unaffiliated/kobs] has joined #lisp 17:58:25 -!- ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has quit [Connection timed out] 17:58:45 -!- antgreen [n=green@bas2-toronto06-1279542688.dsl.bell.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 17:59:21 vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 17:59:28 ia [n=ia@89.169.165.188] has joined #lisp 18:00:16 smolyn_ [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has joined #lisp 18:00:29 salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has joined #lisp 18:00:40 'afternoon 18:00:51 clhs 21.1.3 18:00:52 http://www.lispworks.com/reference/HyperSpec/Body/21_ac.htm 18:01:03 -!- felideon [n=user@adsl-074-186-235-232.sip.bct.bellsouth.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 18:01:08 Xach: see figure 21-7. 18:01:11 er 18:01:13 21-8 18:02:07 -!- MHOOO [n=nah@3-110.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 18:03:00 kreuter: thanks. 18:03:03 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-76-124-114-5.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 18:03:35 kreuter: i'm having trouble because i'd like to princ an encoding error that happened some time in the semidistant past. 18:03:44 the :report calls stream-external-format 18:03:52 hrm 18:04:12 that's bad. 18:04:15 *Xach* thinks perhaps that should be a slot in the error 18:04:19 probably. 18:04:44 *Xach* flexes his patchin' fingers 18:05:48 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:07:05 random thought: has anyone looked at a gnustep backend for clim, or otherwise use the library? 18:07:09 -!- elurin [n=user@88.224.106.157] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:07:51 tltstc` [n=nine@192.207.69.1] has joined #lisp 18:07:55 someone had an obj-c <-> cl layer, right? 18:08:13 there is a bitrotted cocoa backend in mcclim 18:08:21 (evening) 18:08:28 afternoon Krystof 18:08:30 ohhhhh, is it bitrotted again? 18:08:40 I've been meaning to grab it and fix it again. 18:08:41 finally got that bloody application of (24 pages) 18:08:56 -!- jao [n=user@74.Red-80-24-4.staticIP.rima-tde.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:09:02 Krystof/sellout: any idea how much is cocoa specific, and how much would work on gnustep? 18:09:31 salex: No idea. I haven't looked at gnustep in years. 18:09:44 It's not like it uses CoreAnimation or anything, though :) 18:10:10 right. from what someone said, they (gnustep) has been implementing so of the cocoa stuff beyond openstep 18:10:23 some of core graphics, even, iirc 18:10:25 salex: ccl has obj-c bridge 18:10:45 stassats: Yeah, that's what the mcclim backend uses. 18:10:47 stassats: yeah, but i thought there was a porttable one, am i misremembering? 18:11:01 salex: I think the portable one never got all that far along. 18:11:18 (I could be wrong, though ... and possibly biased as I work for Clozure) 18:11:42 sellout: I only know of its bitrot by repute 18:11:51 obviously I would never even attempt to run Apple technology 18:12:02 Krystof: gnustep? 18:12:04 salex: there's one as part of clozure 18:12:11 sorry, I mean ccl 18:12:16 bloody similar names 18:12:20 yes, stassats said that :) 18:12:31 oh, found this 18:12:34 and there's one which theoretically works on sbcl 18:12:36 :) 18:12:38 http://matthias.benkard.de/objective-cl/ 18:12:40 -!- Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:12:43 that's the one 18:12:47 which at lteast has a 2008 release 18:12:54 -!- [Head|Rest] [n=macosx@213.234.18.1] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 18:13:06 slyrus__ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 18:13:12 I have been toying with the idea of making select() pluggable in serve-event, specifically to enable CFRunLoop() to be swapped in 18:13:21 -!- sykopomp|class [n=user@unaffiliated/sykopomp] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:13:23 Krystof [n=csr21@84-51-132-95.christ977.adsl.metronet.co.uk] has joined #lisp 18:13:29 anyway, i'm mostly just curious about it's plausibility in cross-platform UI 18:13:36 which would enable Cocoa niceness in single-threaded SBCL 18:13:48 ah. 18:13:48 salex: cocoa? 18:13:58 rsynnott: gnustep 18:14:02 ah :) 18:14:10 with cocoa probably on mac 18:14:20 as you could stay within the overlap 18:14:26 clim-clx should be enough for everyone 18:14:29 did the Beagle backend use higher-level Cocoa drawing or lower-level Quartz calls? 18:14:34 is there an acceptable gnustep for windows? 18:14:37 lichtblau: gnustep runs on windows too 18:14:44 rsynnott: as far as I know, yes 18:14:54 there's also a separate project called "cocotron" 18:14:58 http://www.cocotron.org/ 18:15:28 chandler: any idea why they didn't join with the openstep/gnustep crowd? 18:15:44 small crowd ;) 18:15:49 -!- smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:15:59 ah, so there is 18:16:05 there's even one for macos, bizarrely :) 18:16:15 salex: No idea. 18:16:19 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:16:24 (it's a shame that Apple haven't released whatever they use for itunes on windows) 18:16:27 anyway, i was mostly curious at it seems at surface that it might be a nice way for clim across platrofms 18:16:32 -!- slyrus__ is now known as slyrus_ 18:16:32 at least some subset of cocoa, I assume 18:16:35 rsynnott: That's not Cocoa. 18:16:47 ah, okay 18:16:54 that's a shame 18:17:21 they inherited a windows NextSTEP port, AFAIK; thought it might be descendent 18:17:27 salex: it's not the approach I'd choose. There are ways of getting better cross-platform native-ish widgets, and there are better ways of drawing your own widgets cross-platform. 18:17:36 rsynnott: iTunes is not Cocoa-based. 18:18:00 I was more hopeful when they released Safari for Windows, but apparently that's not Cocoa-based either, just a good imitation of the Mac UI. 18:18:01 oh! carbon? 18:18:05 ah 18:18:21 vasa [n=vasa@93.84.243.140] has joined #lisp 18:19:09 chandler: perhaps. they have a builder etc. which helps, and obj-c is a lot nicer than you'b be forced into with some. i wasn't acutally suggesting it, so much as wondering what had been done 18:19:34 Ah :-) 18:19:39 kz [n=k0z@202.202.9.254] has joined #lisp 18:19:54 cocoa with ccl is wonderfully easy to use :) 18:20:00 Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-4-137.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has joined #lisp 18:20:08 rsynnott: not on a linux box it isn't :P 18:20:17 well, no :) 18:20:25 which was sort of the point of th non-clim related comment, too 18:20:36 salex: CCL is still easy to use on Linux ... maybe you could make it work with gnustep somehow :) 18:20:38 very few things play nicely unix/windows/mac 18:20:50 sellout: right. see `that was sort of the point' 18:20:52 *rsynnott* goes back to the slightly saner world of webapps :) 18:21:10 heh 18:21:33 At Clozure, we toy with the idea of resurrecting support for gnustep in ccl from time to time. 18:21:50 brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has joined #lisp 18:21:50 There's some bit-rotted code in there now that would need to be brought up-to-date. 18:21:57 -!- kz [n=k0z@202.202.9.254] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:22:18 does anybody use GNUstep? 18:22:38 Well, not really resurrecting perhaps; I'm not sure gnustep support ever really worked... 18:22:42 (or GNUsTeP, or however it's supposed to be lettercased) 18:22:47 not many. it's chugging along slowly though 18:23:21 a cross platform lisp that did gnustep something like ccl+cocoa might be interesting 18:23:33 notwithstanding chandlers comment, which I think is correct 18:23:47 anyway, it was just curiousity 18:24:21 amnesiac [n=amnesiac@p3m/member/Amnesiac] has joined #lisp 18:25:06 AWizzArd [n=ath@83-247-dsl.kielnet.net] has joined #lisp 18:25:14 rme: it'd be quite a nice feature to have 18:25:23 (cross-platform UI develpment!) 18:25:48 rsynnott: yeah, especially with windows ports 18:26:00 seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46E15.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:26:01 indeed 18:26:05 *Xach* was hoping someone clozure-y would blog about the ccl windows port 18:26:09 hm. hyperlink bug in the CLHS 18:26:15 (that might finally be the straw that broke sbcl's back :) ) 18:26:37 don't wish such harm on the poor kitten of death :( 18:27:00 "cross-platform" as in "our app will look out of place on everything that is not a Mac, for a change"? 18:27:16 ha 18:27:26 'tis the nature of cross platform UI 18:27:30 though I have at this point got horribly tied up with sbcl anyway; the mop stuff in particular would require fiddling for any other impl 18:27:36 either it looks different, or it owrks different 18:27:49 cmm: and require a peculiar substrate that nobody installs. 18:27:57 salex: truly cross-platform apps look out of place _everywhere_! 18:28:00 jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has joined #lisp 18:28:01 excatly! 18:28:24 QT has finally gotten to the "decently good" stage on all of the platforms I care about, judging from Opera 18:28:24 it could presumably be included in the download 18:28:25 seelenquell__ [n=seelenqu@pD9E457B8.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 18:28:36 making the download even more scarily big, of course 18:28:37 But, the licensing is off-putting for many. 18:28:54 chandler: afaik, opera on windows doesn't use qt 18:29:00 *Xach* chuckled at http://article.gmane.org/gmane.lisp.openmcl.devel/2889 18:29:01 -!- gz [n=gz@209-6-158-10.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:29:06 chandler: it's ok. Doesn't solve the fundamental problems of course, and the license and language are problemis for (overlapping) sets of people 18:29:24 stassats: really? Interesting. 18:29:37 chandler: http://my.opera.com/kilsmo/blog/2008/01/29/opera-is-not-based-on-qt 18:29:50 otoh, with a web-based app you be similarly ugly an interface poor everywhere. win! 18:29:52 i like the descriptiveness of that url. 18:30:11 hehe 18:30:27 chandler: they're pretty unclear about pricing for commercial apps, too 18:30:30 salex: heh. I did also have a thought regarding wrapping up WebKit and connecting to a localhost CL server :-) 18:30:39 (and they have a runtime charge, it seems) 18:30:41 rsynnott: they didn't use to be so unclear :-( 18:30:58 but I suppose that if you're willing to pay to distribute a commercial GUI application built in Common Lisp, you're probably already using LispWorks 18:31:06 pricing page currently says, more or less, pricing dependent on phase of moon; contact us 18:31:15 how Franz-ish 18:31:23 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-241-159.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 18:31:40 postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-241-159.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has joined #lisp 18:31:43 hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:32:06 Xach: heh. poor kitten 18:32:28 -!- hugo [n=hugo@unaffiliated/hugo] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:32:31 what is "ccl"? 18:32:35 clozure cl 18:32:40 salex: yep, except for people using particularly old browsers 18:32:56 *rsynnott* got a bug report from someone using mozilla from early 2002 the other day 18:34:23 holycow [n=new@mail.wjsgroup.com] has joined #lisp 18:35:12 I asked Martin Simmons at ILC'05 if LispWorks would ever go GTK on Linux. He did not seem to understand what was wrong with the Motif interface, and said that none of their customers cared either. It's a shame: I do believe they'd have a stronger offering if they could produce modern-looking interfaces on Linux in addition to Windows and OS X. 18:35:57 is there that much demand for linux gui apps? 18:36:32 chandler: that woudld be one way (webkit) 18:36:36 Motif was ugly the day it came out, and it never got better. It doesn't even have a nice personality. 18:36:40 *rme* must not rant... 18:36:47 chandler: re motif: true 18:36:50 rme: that's roughly my feeling on the matter. 18:37:21 moritz: which has had about a million different names over time, so don't feel bad you didn't recognize it 18:37:33 It sticks out even more now that nice Freetype fonts are the expectation. 18:37:45 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has left #lisp 18:37:49 indeed 18:37:52 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:37:55 rsynnott: I think in certain markets there is a demand to have both Windows and Linux versions of applications. 18:38:12 if it were easier to do, you'd see more I expect 18:38:15 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 18:38:26 Xach: could you suggest a simple way to test the bug you encountered? 18:38:49 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 18:39:27 -!- seelenquell [n=seelenqu@pD9E45115.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:39:29 hmm, when the lisp survey says 'CLOS MOP: Largely' for scl, anyone know what it means? 18:39:37 -!- seelenquell__ is now known as seelenquell 18:39:47 kreuter: hmm, sure, just a moment 18:40:17 rsynnott: You'd have to ask DTC how active he's been in merging gerdpatches to PCL. 18:40:20 rsynnott: with all those long names, it's hard for a MOP implementation not to get large. 18:40:27 Heh :-) 18:40:56 it looks great on paper (fast threading, fast streams etc) 18:41:16 -!- eevar_ [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:42:42 -!- hugod [n=hugo@modemcable187.149-200-24.mc.videotron.ca] has quit [] 18:43:28 is the Lispworks CLHS the canonical version? 18:43:33 (for filing bug reports?) 18:43:44 -!- seelenquell_ [n=seelenqu@pD9E46E15.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 18:44:17 wow, LispWorks is having a sale even: http://www.lispworks.com/buy/50-50-special-offer.html 18:44:48 Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-087-090.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 18:46:33 Xach pasted "closed file external format" at http://paste.lisp.org/display/68640 18:46:53 kreuter: there you go. that's not quite what i was doing, but it's more self-contained. 18:47:17 -!- smolyn_ [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 18:47:20 thanks. 18:47:29 njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 18:47:31 -!- vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 18:47:59 smolyn [n=smolyn@76.77.66.100] has joined #lisp 18:49:23 -!- ths_ is now known as ths 18:51:10 -!- sohail [n=Sohail@unaffiliated/sohail] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 18:52:15 eevar_ [n=snuffpup@106.80-203-27.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:41 antgreen [n=green@localhost.wbb.net.cable.rogers.com] has joined #lisp 18:53:41 chandler: nice dea! 18:53:43 deal 18:54:14 If you're interested in using LispWorks, it definitely is. 18:58:25 vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has joined #lisp 19:01:00 nifty. the distribution stuff is cool. 19:01:08 still can't afford it though. :) 19:01:20 -!- Nshag [n=shagoune@Mix-Orleans-106-4-137.w193-248.abo.wanadoo.fr] has quit ["Quitte"] 19:01:45 lispm [n=joswig@e177126197.adsl.alicedsl.de] has joined #lisp 19:01:45 -!- lispm [n=joswig@e177126197.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:01:55 -!- JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 19:02:46 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 19:03:11 -!- netaust1n__ [n=austinsm@cpe-98-14-220-121.nyc.res.rr.com] has quit [] 19:03:24 still hasn't quite embraced the exchange rate, I see :) 19:03:43 kleppari_ [n=spa@nat1-krokhals.netberg.is] has joined #lisp 19:05:37 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:05:59 ivansto [i=ivans@93-138-13-52.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has joined #lisp 19:06:20 slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has joined #lisp 19:07:51 willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has joined #lisp 19:09:42 jeng [n=user@75.110.231.66] has joined #lisp 19:09:55 xah_lee [n=x_a_h@c-24-6-185-159.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:10:16 moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has joined #lisp 19:11:04 hi, on unix-like systems, one can write a program so it accept input from stdin and output in stdout. How's this done in Windows? 19:12:02 xah_lee: wrong channel 19:12:04 xah_lee: this isn't a good place for a question like that. i'm not sure where on freenode it might be better asked. 19:12:18 edon [n=edon@82.114.94.2] has joined #lisp 19:12:50 ok. thx. 19:16:24 -!- kleppari [n=spa@157-157-228-97.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 19:16:59 rsynnott: otoh, the rate isn't exactly stable at the moment, is it? 19:17:27 mib_wh0ocw [i=80e3695c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9d4177122482a476] has joined #lisp 19:18:50 -!- ivanst_ [i=ivans@93-138-65-68.adsl.net.t-com.hr] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:19:05 Hi, I have a file with the representation of an array (i.e. it looks like #2A((some data)) ). I'd like to open that file, eval the array, and save it to a variable. How can i simply read the entire contents from the file, rather than line-by-line? 19:19:16 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 19:19:28 mib_wh0ocw: READ is one way 19:19:58 so could i just use with-open-file, and just read the stream? 19:20:05 open the file as a character stream (that's the default), and then READ from it 19:20:06 yeah. 19:20:30 ah, i see. thanks, that's just what i'm looking for 19:21:46 -!- name [n=name@sburn/devel/name] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 19:23:05 mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has joined #lisp 19:23:30 -!- mib_wh0ocw [i=80e3695c@gateway/web/ajax/mibbit.com/x-9d4177122482a476] has quit ["http://www.mibbit.com ajax IRC Client"] 19:28:33 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.6] has quit ["Ex-Chat"] 19:29:52 -!- Cryovat [i=isis@akuma.no] has left #lisp 19:30:29 -!- jmbr [n=jmbr@87.223.197.81] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:32:48 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:38:27 Speaking of READ, is setting *read-eval* to NIL enough to prevent all kinds of malicious readtime code execution shenanigans? 19:38:49 yes, but not denial of service shenanigans. 19:39:11 Those shenanigans... 19:39:27 -!- lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has quit ["Leaving."] 19:43:11 lemoinem [n=swoog@modemcable125.83-81-70.mc.videotron.ca] has joined #lisp 19:43:53 -!- jgracin [n=jgracin@82.193.208.195] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 19:44:51 smithzv [n=smithzv@duan145-125-dhcp.colorado.edu] has joined #lisp 19:46:42 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-76-124-114-5.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:46:44 -!- Ijeroj__ [n=nah@6-091.vpn.RWTH-Aachen.DE] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 19:51:43 Xach: do you have shares in 64-bit chip companies? 19:51:52 you are all over the internet today telling the world that 32 bits is not enough 19:53:08 heh. that reminds me, this amd64 needs a 64 bit os installed 19:53:30 Oh how lovely it would be to run 64 bit OS on my 64bit intel :S 19:53:40 so why don't you? 19:53:49 one of these days I will get one of those 64 bit beasties 19:53:56 I tried. Then I get around to starting X and no videodrivers work. 19:54:14 nvidia says no card. VESA makes the screen all black and I have to hard reboot to get anythnig. 19:54:21 -!- brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has quit [Connection timed out] 19:54:31 So it's shit :) 19:54:54 oh, i dunno... i've got a bunch of headless machines that are pretty useful :) 19:54:56 minion, tell seelenquell about alexandria 19:54:57 seelenquell: direct your attention towards alexandria: Shhh -- it's a secret! http://www.cliki.net/alexandria 19:55:14 Krystof: any hmm progress? 19:55:15 Ya, of course. I don't want this headless. I bought it for not being headless. 19:55:28 brickhazel [n=brickhaz@63.144.132.78] has joined #lisp 19:55:40 salex: a slightly altered class hierachy that will probably let me write the next bit of code I need to write 19:55:48 blAckEn3d [n=Alex@p54BA237C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:55:51 So it's the 32bit with the weird fix to make 8GB work. 19:55:53 "work" 19:55:58 netaust1n [n=austinsm@160.79.78.72] has joined #lisp 19:56:04 Krystof: not processor companies, but memory companies. 19:56:17 *Xach* cackles at all the wasted memory for 8-byte pointers 19:56:24 -!- blAckEn3d [n=Alex@p54BA237C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit [Client Quit] 19:56:48 *lemonodor* has been taking advantage of 16 64 bit cores + 128 GB RAM. 19:56:56 lovely. 19:57:00 How does gnubg run on that? 19:57:10 with lisp? 19:57:14 I assume you used it for backgammon, why else all the power? 19:57:19 python. 19:57:47 we've got a couple of big 64bit core machines, but they're busy 19:58:05 i tend to use `my' 40ish old cores instead 19:58:28 40 bits? 19:58:47 no, 40 cpus 19:58:51 roughly 19:58:56 32 bit 19:59:07 blAckEn3d [n=Alex@p54BA237C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has joined #lisp 19:59:36 i say `40ish' because the cluster is a bit old, and keeps dropping nodes :) 20:00:45 hi. i decided i want to buy i book on lisp but i am not sure which one: ansi common lisp or practical common lisp. which one do you recommend. i am not new to programming and i am not new to lisp. 20:01:11 blAckEn3d: PCL 20:01:17 PCL is very highly regarded here. 20:01:24 thanks 20:01:25 -!- disumu [n=disumu@p57A256B5.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["..."] 20:01:28 PCL it'll be 20:02:22 lisp symbols confuse me -- would anyone be so kind to tell what i'm doing wrong here? 20:02:34 defvar x (gensym)) 20:02:34 (setf (symbol-function x) (lambda () "hello")) 20:02:53 you're missing a left paren! 20:02:54 now, (fboundp x) evaluates to T, as i expect it to do 20:03:00 (besides that) 20:03:03 :) 20:03:05 *Xach* guesses funcall 20:03:16 and x evaluates to say.. #:G666 20:03:37 i would have expected (fboundp '#:G666) evaluate to T as well 20:03:48 do you know what GENSYM does? 20:03:57 moritz: you cannot read a gensym 20:04:04 moritz: #:FOO returns a fresh (different) symbol everything it's read in. 20:04:05 oh, right. 20:04:14 bobbysmith007: sure you can. you get a fresh symbol every time. 20:04:20 err right, thats what I meant 20:04:39 can i fix this? 20:04:56 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:05:09 *kreuter* makes everyone barf 20:05:13 you can use GENTEMP 20:06:03 moritz: what are you actually trying to do? Why are you binding these to gensyms? 20:06:11 but really, you're doing something wrong. 20:06:13 actually, what I am trying to do is this: convert a function to a foreign pointer. but since CFFI does only support conversion between strings and foreign pointers, i had the idea to generate a symbol, attach the function to that symbol, convert the symbol to it's "string representation" and backwars again 20:06:47 do i make myself clear? :) 20:07:31 instead of: lisp function <-> foreign pointer, i'm trying to do: lisp function <-> symbol <-> string <-> foreign pointer <-> string <-> symbol <-> function 20:07:51 *kreuter* is confused. 20:07:55 hmm 20:07:57 that's a little like using the package system as lichtblau's hash table suggestion. 20:07:57 moritz: I'm fairly certain you can pass ints around in cffi (and map between ints and lisp objects with hash tables) 20:08:25 Xach: i'm glad that at least this is obvious :) 20:09:11 pkhuong: as Xach pointed out i wondered why i need to use a self-hacked hash table, when i already have one 20:09:28 that symbol management 20:09:40 moritz: it's bad to use the package system as a hash table. 20:09:51 moritz: what setf hacked hash table? make-hash-table... 20:10:57 *self-hacked even. 20:11:09 seigh 20:11:12 sigh 20:11:17 sleigh? 20:11:19 gz [n=gz@209-6-158-10.c3-0.smr-ubr3.sbo-smr.ma.cable.rcn.com] has joined #lisp 20:11:21 -!- mye [n=mye@dslc-082-082-083-130.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [] 20:11:41 alright, then i'll take this advice 20:11:56 thanks 20:13:23 kreuter: but allow me the question: why is it bad to use the package system for that purpose? 20:15:34 -!- vasa [n=vasa@93.84.243.140] has quit ["I am not vasya, i am vasa"] 20:15:58 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has quit [] 20:16:26 for one thing, package manipulations are more expensive than hash-table operations in general 20:17:09 for another, packages typically live forever, and so if you're manipulating them continuously, you'll probably run afoul of modern garbage collection strategies. 20:18:09 further, because package operations are usually only done as side-effects of reading, compiling, and loading, implementations are liable not to optimize them in the ways they might do general-purpose hash tables 20:18:35 thanks for the insight 20:18:56 bew [n=chatzill@82-35-250-119.cable.ubr04.dals.blueyonder.co.uk] has joined #lisp 20:19:10 howdy, bew 20:19:50 -!- Adamant [n=Adamant@unaffiliated/adamant] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:20:03 Hey - I'm on the phone atm. 20:20:25 Just came across this : http://lemonodor.com/ 20:20:46 "In other news, I've made Lehman Brothers the official managers of the lemonodor nest egg. You can't beat the feeling of security that comes from having your money in a bank that survived the American Civil War. " 20:20:49 Heh. 20:22:20 How are you? 20:22:25 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 20:22:42 sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has joined #lisp 20:22:51 (amazing how my mum chooses to ring as soon as I decide to do something...) 20:23:54 fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.6] has joined #lisp 20:24:31 -!- Jabberwockey [n=jens@dslb-082-083-087-090.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit ["Konversation terminated!"] 20:25:31 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:26:17 i have re-enabled spam filtering on common-lisp.net, please report problems. 20:26:45 H4ns: what did we end up going with? 20:26:49 bew: not bad, thanks 20:27:02 How's fatherhood? 20:27:05 tired? 20:27:09 drewc: spamassassin + exim4, that is easy to set up. 20:27:22 tired and stressed, yes 20:28:02 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has joined #lisp 20:28:17 H4ns: sounds good to me. 20:28:32 drewc: needs debugging, though, but i will take care of that. 20:30:09 -!- tst__ [n=Tim@p4FD2FD47.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["leaving"] 20:33:17 hugod [n=hugo@bas1-montreal50-1279776314.dsl.bell.ca] has joined #lisp 20:33:22 hugo__ [n=hugo@89-180-123-117.net.novis.pt] has joined #lisp 20:35:08 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 20:35:17 aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:36:17 weird. (use-package :cffi) fails in clisp but works in sbcl 20:36:30 the asdf system for cffi was loaded 20:37:15 how does it fail? 20:38:08 *** - (USE-PACKAGE (#) #): 1 name 20:38:08 conflicts remain 20:38:08 Which symbol with name "FOREIGN-POINTER" should be accessible in 20:38:08 #? 20:38:28 do you understand what that's telling you? 20:39:02 oh, right. cffi for some reasons already defines foreign-pointer in cl-user 20:39:11 i remember to have wondered about that before 20:39:24 -!- blAckEn3d [n=Alex@p54BA237C.dip0.t-ipconnect.de] has quit ["leaving"] 20:39:44 I think you mean Clisp includes a symbol called FOREIGN-POINTER in CL-USER. 20:40:21 and i thought that's exactly what i have said =) 20:40:22 *H4ns* disabled spamd, needs more work. not today. 20:41:02 CL-USER is basically a sandbox. you're only allowed to rely on it being mutable and containing the symbols from CL when Lisp starts up. it can have any other random stuff in it, however. 20:41:16 -!- bew [n=chatzill@82-35-250-119.cable.ubr04.dals.blueyonder.co.uk] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 20:41:56 Drakej [n=Gloria@216-67-85-98-rb2.nwc.dsl.dynamic.acsalaska.net] has joined #lisp 20:42:24 so it's usually a good idea to define a new package at first? 20:42:54 -!- syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has quit [] 20:43:04 Adamant [n=Adamant@c-98-244-152-196.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 20:43:14 jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has joined #lisp 20:43:36 you could, yeah. It's not clear to me that you can get terribly far calling USE-PACKAGE on every package you want to use (since there's liable to be conflicts between pairs of random packages). 20:44:00 um, there's supposed to be a "however" at the end of that last sentence. 20:46:14 jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-162-204.telkomadsl.co.za] has joined #lisp 20:47:05 -!- hugo_ [n=hugo@89-180-241-185.net.novis.pt] has quit [Connection timed out] 20:48:01 alright, function-to-foreign-pointer and foreign-pointer-to-function work 20:48:13 basically 20:49:11 syamajala2 [n=syamajal@140.232.148.90] has joined #lisp 20:50:34 spiderbyte [n=dcl@unaffiliated/dcl] has joined #lisp 20:54:26 GrayShade [i=GrayShad@79.117.180.25] has joined #lisp 20:55:57 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-226-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 20:55:57 -!- twxfn is now known as RODNEY___ 20:56:16 -!- RODNEY___ is now known as ROMNEY___ 20:56:55 -!- ROMNEY___ is now known as THE_MITT_ROMNEY 20:57:35 -!- mstevens [n=mstevens@zazen.etla.org] has quit ["leaving"] 20:57:42 -!- jeng [n=user@75.110.231.66] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 20:58:03 -!- GrayShade [i=GrayShad@79.117.180.25] has quit [] 20:58:25 hello. 20:59:11 finally emacs & slime & sbcl works on this machine, too. thanks Xach and drewc. 20:59:22 hans__ [n=H4ns@p57A0FE68.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 20:59:32 -!- THE_MITT_ROMNEY is now known as twxfn 20:59:33 trebor_home: I'm really glad to hear that! what was the resolution? 21:00:14 complete new-install of the system - this time i used sidux instead of debian-original. 21:00:25 H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0FE68.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:00:39 trebor_home: big hammer you used there :D 21:01:43 i got crazy because of these connection losses... and this was the only machine which had this problems (my personal laptop - what a shame). all other machines were running fine. 21:01:43 -!- H4ns2 [n=hans@p57A0FE68.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 21:01:56 trebor_home: I've got sbcl, slime and emacs running on ubuntu heron. 21:02:10 trebor_home: Works fine. 21:02:17 -!- gonzojive [n=red@rescomp-08-102861.Stanford.EDU] has quit [] 21:02:25 schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has joined #lisp 21:02:30 Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has joined #lisp 21:02:57 -!- aquateen [n=chris@c-71-231-10-116.hsd1.wa.comcast.net] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:03:10 this is a macbook. if sidux had failed, too - i would have tried ubuntu. 21:03:35 JuanDaugherty [n=juan@cpe-72-228-150-44.buffalo.res.rr.com] has joined #lisp 21:03:42 (i like the policy of sidux/debian more than ubuntu) 21:04:05 -!- auclairb [n=auclairb@laborius1.gel.usherb.ca] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:04:28 trebor_home: I'm using own packages of sbcl though. Ubuntu packages are no good. Lot's of connection losses. 21:04:35 japhy [n=user@vide-sat.pl] has joined #lisp 21:04:55 -!- japhy is now known as japhy` 21:05:03 not really! where have you been as i was asking about those connection losses? ;) 21:05:34 is there some secret club of hacker anarchists i haven't found yet 21:05:39 -!- kjbrock [n=kevinbro@h-66-166-232-134.snvacaid.covad.net] has quit [] 21:05:55 twxfn: yes. 21:06:00 twxfn: Yeah. Apparently. 21:06:23 where 21:06:38 -!- deximer [n=deximer@168.203.117.66] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:06:45 -!- edon [n=edon@albalug/edon] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:06:58 what kind of a secret would it be if random people on irc were told? 21:07:24 certainly not the best way to keep secrets. 21:07:34 jsnell: That is the best part. We DO tell random people at irc. :-) 21:07:39 -!- booyaa [n=booyaa@adsl-67-121-157-251.dsl.pltn13.pacbell.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 21:07:42 -!- CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has quit [Connection timed out] 21:09:00 CrazyEddy [n=CrazyEdd@wrongplanet/CrazyEddy] has joined #lisp 21:09:49 trebor_home: Sorry that I didn't hear about your connection losses. I asked about the same issue some time ago. Somehow having sbcl compiled in home folder solved it. 21:10:40 trebor_home: wait .. you were using debian packages? that's a no no! 21:11:29 i reinstalled sbcl & slime & emacs from cvs, deleted .slime and all other .fasl files - with no effect. after all - i wanted to switch to sidux at all ;) 21:12:08 maybe i had some interferences from the debian-packages i was installing in first place - who knows... 21:12:23 jao [n=user@224.Red-83-38-59.dynamicIP.rima-tde.net] has joined #lisp 21:13:31 drewc: Do you know the reason why debian packages are no good? 21:14:24 -!- dlowe [n=dlowe@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["*poof*"] 21:14:45 manic12 [n=manic12@c-98-227-126-106.hsd1.il.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 21:14:47 brill: the main reason is that common-lisp-controller is teh suck. The other issues are that most sbcl users/developers keep a more up-to-date lisp world than what is offered in debian. 21:15:16 so when users come asking for support, the first advice is always 'scrap debian management of lisp' 21:15:26 drewc: I figured as much. 21:15:34 where do I put asd files so sbcl finds the packages? 21:16:01 -!- hans___ [n=H4ns@p57A0C940.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:16:01 I'm new to the whole lisp packages thing, so, more info is better 21:16:04 fisxoj: push the directory containing the file into your asdf:*central-registry* 21:16:22 fisxoj: and RTF ASDF M 21:16:36 http://constantly.at/lisp/asdf/ 21:17:14 schasi_ [n=schasi@p54A26B9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has joined #lisp 21:17:39 fisxoj: there is also the symlink approach if you're on unix-ish, but i personally abhor it :) 21:17:45 -!- H4ns [n=hans@p57A0C940.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:19:08 -!- timmyd [n=timmy@pool-96-255-147-249.washdc.fios.verizon.net] has left #lisp 21:19:45 existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-65-65.adsl.snet.net] has joined #lisp 21:20:40 -!- hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has quit [Read error: 104 (Connection reset by peer)] 21:21:40 hsaliak [n=hsaliak@cm31.sigma228.maxonline.com.sg] has joined #lisp 21:22:20 -!- s_p [n=s_p___@77.241.163.216] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:22:58 |Soulman| [n=kvirc@62.80-202-238.nextgentel.com] has joined #lisp 21:23:16 -!- tsuru [n=user@c-69-245-36-64.hsd1.tn.comcast.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:24:26 -!- spiderbyte is now known as away-mode 21:29:40 -!- jewel [n=jewel@dsl-242-162-204.telkomadsl.co.za] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 21:33:08 I need a suggestion about child-parent node functionality. What I have done here is -- If there is a parent node (list :value 1 :parent nil), its child-node would look like (list :value 2 :parent (:value 1 :parent nil)) --- clisp is saying that it is malformed property list 21:33:47 how do you guys suggest I implement this parent-child relation -- I need all of the information in parent node, while creating the child node 21:34:02 daniel_ [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has joined #lisp 21:34:27 Serva: (list :value 2 :parent (:value 1 :parent nil)) won't evaluate. 21:34:44 Yes, I am facing this problem now. :-( 21:35:00 are you aware that Lisp has data structures other than lists? 21:35:08 did they get to that page in your text book? 21:35:12 -!- sellout [n=greg@guest-fw.dc4.itasoftware.com] has quit [] 21:35:13 defstruct 21:35:32 right! and defclass, too! 21:36:07 So, I should rather focus about defstruct .. and creating an instance of that struct type everytime I need a node to be created 21:36:19 um 21:36:44 in abstract, yes. in practice, use defclass. 21:37:10 robot_jesus [n=csanders@hoovers-241.hoovers.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:12 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:37:33 Serva: your list of list does not have a "list" symbol before :value 1 21:37:42 *rvirding* good evening everyone 21:38:15 manic12: you're only making his confusion more resilient. 21:39:03 kreuter: why are you pointing him towards defclass and defstruct before he understands evaluation rules? 21:39:32 manic, the problem about that is -- that list is already defined before as (list :value....) but while other function creates a child node and assigns the earlier defined (correctly) parent node to parent field in child -- it does not include "list" 21:39:40 -!- daniel [i=daniel@unaffiliated/daniel] has quit [Read error: 60 (Operation timed out)] 21:39:44 Eiland [n=ddsmith@12.6.239.179] has joined #lisp 21:39:57 -!- existentialmonk [n=carcdr@64-252-65-65.adsl.snet.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:40:21 maybe you should bind it to a symbol 21:40:24 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit [Client Quit] 21:40:39 symbols instead of properties? 21:40:57 -!- willb [n=wibenton@wireless119.cs.wisc.edu] has quit ["Leaving"] 21:41:04 Serva: I guess I don't understand what you're trying to do 21:41:27 never mind, I'll look into defstruct and defclass kreuter 21:42:15 Serva: you might be better off going back to the part of your text that explains evaluation rules first ... you'll probably learn a lot more trying to understand what is is you are doing wrong. 21:42:26 what it is* 21:43:16 alright 21:43:21 what drewc said & also because defstruct & defclass are special forms or macros 21:46:09 Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has joined #lisp 21:48:19 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-226-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:50:53 http://wiki.alu.org/Kiwi - haha 21:50:56 "The skies are foul with fumes from burning airships set ablaze in endless unnamed and unrecorded battles. The English language is dying, few can read it, even fewer speak it. I would volunteer to translate this page into New Latin but I am close. As I dictate this from my hover-desk, I feel the darkness filling in around me. Oh yes, I almost forgot. Any news regarding source availability?" 21:51:15 chandler: a classic :) 21:51:34 *chandler* wonders who the anonymous wag was 21:53:02 does anyone know if Abhishek Reddy hangs around here, and if so what his handle is? 21:53:14 that's me 21:53:55 arbscht: sweet :) i was wondering if we could use the text from http://abhishek.geek.nz/docs/features-of-common-lisp on common-lisp.net 21:54:17 arbscht: it's an excellent summation of what makes CL tick :) 21:54:59 sure, I've waived copyright over that document 21:55:19 manic12: I have the idea that a nontrivial amount of newcomer confusion has to do with lists being both code and data, and that the evaluation rules are easier to get a handle on when you're away from lists. 21:55:21 you can use as much as you like, however you like 21:55:25 arbscht: oh, I also had one suggestion: the example of PRINT-OBJECT is naughty because it does not obey *PRINT-READABLY*. It would probably be better to use PRINT-UNREADABLE-OBJECT to do this. 21:55:39 arbscht: oh, so you have :). Thank you kindly good sir, i promise it will be put to good use! 21:55:56 -!- schoppenhauer [n=css@unaffiliated/schoppenhauer] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 21:55:57 -!- ddsmith [n=ddsmith@12.6.239.179] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:56:24 retupmoca [n=retupmoc@ppp-69-214-23-5.dsl.klmzmi.ameritech.net] has joined #lisp 21:56:40 chandler: good point. I'll look into updating that 21:56:47 arbscht: Also, SBCL does not like the specialization of the stream argument to PRINT-OBJECT, as it is technically undefined. 21:57:51 -!- slyrus_ [n=slyrus@dsl092-019-253.sfo1.dsl.speakeasy.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 21:57:52 -!- postamar [n=postamar@x-132-204-241-159.xtpr.umontreal.ca] has left #lisp 21:58:45 chandler: noted, thanks 21:59:06 rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has joined #lisp 21:59:20 *arbscht* has to leave now; will update the document in the near future 21:59:36 arbscht: thanks again :) 22:01:57 -!- Eiland [n=ddsmith@12.6.239.179] has quit [] 22:06:40 puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has joined #lisp 22:09:21 -!- brill [n=brill@0x503e0b40.hrnxx2.dynamic.dsl.tele.dk] has quit ["Lost terminal"] 22:09:48 -!- schasi_ [n=schasi@p54A26B9C.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Client Quit] 22:16:31 -!- alec [n=aberryma@ita4fw1.itasoftware.com] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:17:03 -!- moghar [n=user@unaffiliated/moghar] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:21:40 -!- japhy` [n=user@vide-sat.pl] has quit ["ERC Version 5.2 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:22:55 -!- robot_jesus [n=csanders@hoovers-241.hoovers.com] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:24:52 -!- tritchey [n=tritchey@c-98-226-113-211.hsd1.in.comcast.net] has quit [] 22:25:32 -!- mulligan` [n=user@e178009036.adsl.alicedsl.de] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:26:27 -!- puchacz [n=puchacz@87-194-5-99.bethere.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:28:48 njsg_ [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has joined #lisp 22:29:07 kidd1 [n=kidd@193.152.210.172] has joined #lisp 22:29:35 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit [Nick collision from services.] 22:29:44 -!- njsg_ is now known as njsg 22:31:40 -!- njsg [n=njsg@unaffiliated/njsg] has quit [Client Quit] 22:34:15 -!- Serva [n=Serva@unaffiliated/serva] has quit [Connection timed out] 22:36:12 benny [n=benny@i577A134C.versanet.de] has joined #lisp 22:40:10 sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 22:41:10 -!- fisxoj [n=fisxoj@149.43.108.6] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:45:48 -!- enigmus_ [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 22:46:33 -!- ths [n=ths@p549AD777.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit [Read error: 113 (No route to host)] 22:46:57 -!- kzar [n=kzar@hardwick.demon.co.uk] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 22:47:18 So, I'm seeing a few libraries for XML out there, is there a particular one that's suggested over the others? 22:47:35 ths [n=ths@X6aaa.x.pppool.de] has joined #lisp 22:47:36 i think CXML is really good. 22:47:41 -!- tcr [n=tcr@host145.natpool.mwn.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 22:48:10 -!- xah_lee [n=x_a_h@c-24-6-185-159.hsd1.ca.comcast.net] has quit ["banned in #emacs by johnsu01 (john sullivan)"] 22:49:06 -!- away-mode is now known as spiderbyte 22:49:18 Actually, what'd I'd be looking for I suppose is just a simple way to turn clos objects into xml, and vice versa (this program will be talking with Flex, and I'm told flex likes XML for communicating data best) 22:50:06 i don't know of an especially simple way 22:51:20 cxml can act as a serializer as well as a parser 22:51:44 there are some serialisation libraries, but there's no guarantee that the format will be anything that you'll like handling in flex. 22:51:58 -!- jlouis [n=jlouis@port1394.ds1-vby.adsl.cybercity.dk] has quit ["Leaving"] 22:52:05 -!- Yuuhi [n=user@p5483FB90.dip.t-dialin.net] has quit ["ERC Version 5.3 (IRC client for Emacs)"] 22:53:30 *Xach* used cxml in both capacities for ZS3 22:53:50 I think I'll have to talk with the flex guy more. From what I've been told though, basic structures will do. 22:53:57 pjb [n=pjb@81-66-48-185.rev.numericable.fr] has joined #lisp 22:54:00 I suppose I could just write it myself using a serializer an dparser 22:54:27 -!- cemerick [n=la_mer@75.147.38.122] has quit [] 22:55:20 Draggor: XMLisp looks like an interesting approach, though not one i think i'd advocate. 22:56:18 Draggor: but i'd defer to Xach on this one, he's the expert :) 22:59:03 drewc: I was telling Xach about my own uses of XMLisp at a recent lisp meeting, and I kept following my statements with "oh yeah, but I had to hack it like crazy to get that to work" 22:59:39 sellout: Doesn't sound like something I want to use when I have only 3 weeks =p 22:59:54 -!- vcgomes is now known as vcgomes[away] 22:59:55 cxml (and friends) is what you want, Draggor 22:59:56 Draggor: I agree 23:00:01 sellout: heh, i could believe it :) 23:00:06 *Draggor* gives cxml a download! 23:00:21 the only time i ever tried it, i had to hack like mad.. but it was neat anyway. 23:00:27 In general, when you've got a body of code that doesn't work, or doesn't work well, do you find it more expedient to rewrite it, or to try to debug/understand/correct it? 23:01:05 well, since you're being that specific ..... ;) 23:01:38 What other options do you see? 23:01:38 pjb: it really depends. If i only need a feature or two i'll hack it myself. If the scope is larger, i'll try and work with the existing solution. 23:02:29 Of course we won't rewrite a firefox every morning. Let's assume less than 10 KLOC 23:02:39 pjb: fix it, replace it, extend it ... but I don't think `in general' makes much sense 23:02:46 more case-by-case 23:03:02 i usually NIH actually .. hell i have my own object/relational map. 23:03:29 I mean, from your experience, what was the most often most expedient thing to do? 23:05:07 from ITA: "Prior experience with XML, Python, Lisp, and/or relational database technologies" :) 23:05:17 Several times, it occured I spent two days trying to debug a function or small body of code, and finally gave up and rewrote it in a few hours, working perfectly at once... Especially when I wasn't the original author, but even sometimes in that case. 23:05:26 XML _or_ Lisp will do :) 23:05:44 pjb: i think you always have to estimate the costs of the various paths 23:05:55 and accept that your estimates may not be that good ;) 23:06:32 I'm weary of job offers requiring other programming languages, and mentionning tha knowledge of lisp is a nice plus... Wonder if I would have a chance of _applying_ my lisp knowledge in such a job... 23:06:55 salex: yes, unless we have the resources to try both ways, we have to take a chance. 23:07:17 pjb: ITA seems to be pretty lisp-y 23:07:51 rsynnott: Yes, with ITA I'd trust it. But what about the others? 23:07:53 pjb: right, but it's not like the same way is always right. hence the estimates 23:08:28 -!- jfrancis [n=jfrancis@72.14.224.1] has quit [] 23:09:25 -!- borism [n=boris@allikas.gospa.ee] has quit [Read error: 148 (No route to host)] 23:09:27 ilSignor1arlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has joined #lisp 23:10:08 -!- Hun [n=Hun@82.149.80.128] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:10:12 People, be sure not to leave your computers and power cables on the floor. Even if you live on 21st floor like me, you can get a flood, like I did. That said, good night everybody! 23:10:50 -!- LiamH [n=none@common-lisp.net] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:10:55 pjb: i live on a boat... i feel your pain :) 23:10:56 -!- Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:10:57 hang it on the ceiling? 23:11:36 ah, but the ceiling can leak 23:11:45 (mine did last week. bah) 23:11:50 With an umbrella between the ceiling and the computer :-) 23:11:51 drewc: i knew someone who took the laptop-in-a-pelican-case approach to that one 23:11:51 stassats: if you live on the 21st floor, and there is a 22nd floor with a leak! 23:12:08 I've got to order three replacement powersuplies... 23:12:18 salex: that's the only way to do it when you're out to sea, and still i manage to brick em. 23:12:25 *stassats* lives on the last floor, and there was recently a leak 23:12:49 drewc: backups on land 23:12:51 ;) 23:13:09 salex: even in a pelican, a fall from 30 ft is hard on a laptop.. i've fallen off bigger waves than that :) 23:13:21 oh yes, many backups. 23:13:28 Backups in space! 23:13:42 drewc: toughbook (: 23:13:51 so have i. of course, mostly in a kayak... not much fall, but not much laptop space either 23:14:42 *stassats* has ups standing on the floor, that's more dangerous than cables 23:14:49 pkhuong: probably my next purchase yeah. or a great laptop insurance policy. 23:15:09 myrkraverk` [n=johann@85-220-125-230.dsl.dynamic.simnet.is] has joined #lisp 23:15:11 though FWIW i have 3 olpcs that have held up pretty well. 23:15:11 or buy on ly cheap ones 23:15:57 even the cheap ones are expensive enough to not want to replace every 3 months or so :) 23:16:16 -!- vixey [n=witch@amcant.demon.co.uk] has quit ["Leaving"] 23:16:30 one time laptop? 23:16:38 drewc: whats the battery life like? 23:16:51 drewc: a solid state disk might help 23:17:01 wchogg [n=wchogg@h216-165-147-7.mdtnwi.dsl.dynamic.tds.net] has joined #lisp 23:17:08 drewc: I got mine and was disappointed to only get 3-3.5 hrs regardless of backlight usage 23:17:15 bobbysmith007: I get around 5h without wifi and on the b/w screen. 23:17:22 *only 23:17:32 bobbysmith007: pretty good actually. 4-5 hours is 23:17:35 aiee. this must be our bimonthly Mac discussion 23:17:43 pkhong: k,mine was using wifi the whole time 23:18:10 Jasko [n=tjasko@c-98-235-21-22.hsd1.pa.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:18:24 bobbysmith007: the wiki chews the battery pretty fast. that said, i've got quite a bit of battery available on board, so i can always plug it in. 23:18:26 chandler: OLPC (but I hear the new Macs ... ;) 23:18:41 pkhuong: oh. I didn't even scroll up, I just supposed :-) 23:18:48 wifi 23:19:26 drewc: cool, that sorta renews my faith a bit... I thought maybe my batter was not running up to snuff\ 23:19:30 drewc: do you have some pictures of your boat? 23:19:31 The OLPC doesn't look nearly so interesting when you can buy a small laptop at Best Buy for $300 even including the Microsoft tax 23:20:07 chandler: but are they green and cute with a handle and ears ;) 23:20:22 chandler: the display's the part that sold me. It's technologically interesting (especially considering what was available back then). 23:20:32 pjb: are you on facebook? 23:20:32 pkhuong: yes, that's true 23:21:16 No. Do I need to register to watch? 23:21:17 unfortunately, reading PDFs on a 300 MHz x86 is a PITA. 23:21:27 -!- ilSignorCarlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:21:27 pjb: that's how they get you. 23:21:31 pkhuong: what software are you using? 23:21:48 rsynnott: xpdf. 23:21:52 I seem to remember reading PDFs on a P166 at a reasonable speed (on linux) 23:21:58 hmm, xpdf too 23:22:09 maybe I was just more tolerant of slowness back then 23:22:20 rsynnott: times change. Also, was the P166 driving 1200x900 pixels? 23:22:23 pjb: not sure .. let me see. 23:22:39 I seem to remember that too, but I also seem to encounter PDFs these days that make my 1.2GHz G4 beachball for 30 seconds every time I try to pan the page 23:23:04 As pkhuong said, "times change". 23:25:15 Serva [n=Serva@dilip.rit.edu] has joined #lisp 23:25:16 pkhuong i'd get one of the new asus eeepc's with atom instead of olpsc 23:25:26 times change... and it's hard to go back 23:25:27 *olpc 23:25:41 -!- rvirding [n=chatzill@h235n3c1o1034.bredband.skanova.com] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.83 [Firefox 3.0.3/2008092417]"] 23:26:16 xristos: those weren't out during the original G1G1 program. At the time, the original EEE 700 had just come out. 23:26:35 drewc: is it a Grand Banks 42 Europa? 23:27:30 nope. the small one (which i currently live aboard) is a Martin 29. The big one is a Carius 46. 23:28:05 *salex* misses messing about in boats 23:28:25 So you have a backup boat too. Nice :-) 23:28:25 drewc: do you get an interenet connection there? :) 23:29:03 pjb: http://versions.tech.coop/kanu.jpg is the 29, though at her old slip.. which is much nicer than where she is now. 23:29:34 -!- smithzv [n=smithzv@duan145-125-dhcp.colorado.edu] has quit [Read error: 110 (Connection timed out)] 23:30:23 http://versions.tech.coop/cestlavie.jpg is the big one, which is undergoing a complete refit on the yard, which is why we live down here. 23:30:59 are you doing any of the refit yourself? 23:30:59 This Carrius looks great! 23:31:03 rsynnott: i do, i have broadband at the doc, and there is amazing WiFi access available all throughout the inside passage. 23:31:18 salex: _all_ the refit myself. 23:31:34 how else can you trust the boat you want to take offshore! 23:31:44 drewc: good point. how's it coming along? 23:32:01 pjb: she'll look even better when i'm done .. the topsides will all be mahogany and teak. 23:32:02 -!- ilSignor1arlo [n=Mr_SpOOn@89-97-102-218.ip17.fastwebnet.it] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:32:10 (i guess `how else' depends on who you know, too , but still... ) 23:32:26 salex: steadily, but there is still an incredible amount of work to do. 23:32:34 I bet. 23:32:46 drewc: what's that city in the background? 23:32:58 salex: indeed, i will have some things done by skilled tradesmen, but the majority of the work i can do myself. 23:33:05 rsynnott: Vancouver. 23:33:23 ah, nearly ended up working there at one point 23:33:28 impressive looking :) 23:33:34 that's false creek... a big anchorage right downtown. great spot for a boater. 23:33:38 prettiest city on the continent 23:33:48 (we don't really have many tall buildings here for zoning reasons) 23:33:56 or planning, rather 23:34:02 drewc: slips are a bit dear, though, right? 23:34:33 salex: not too bad really .. our slip in vancouver was $4500/yr 23:34:42 oh, that's not too bad 23:34:45 -!- acrid [n=mckay@reverse.control4.com] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:34:55 milos_ [n=milos@92.36.158.202] has joined #lisp 23:34:58 10 year waiting list for that place though :) 23:35:05 I knew a couple peopel who were much worse off in victoria area 23:35:09 beats renting 23:35:11 but demand figures in 23:35:17 and no live aboard there either. 23:35:21 though I suppose the boat adds extra cost :) 23:35:45 rsynnott: they are best thought of in some ways as a hole in the water in which you throw time and money 23:35:46 rsynnott: boat dollars have two zeros after the one .. once you accept that boats are cheap! :) 23:35:46 ;) 23:35:58 how much did you big boat cost 23:36:22 xristos: 15k to buy, but probably close to 50k by the time she's done. 23:36:37 which is pretty cheap for an offshore boat 23:36:45 Yes, quite cheap. 23:36:51 extremely .. i got lucky. 23:37:06 the hull, spars and sails are in near-new condition. 23:37:14 one way or another, you're usually looking 6 figures for starters for a real offshore boat 23:37:15 blbrown [n=Berlin@c-71-236-25-127.hsd1.ga.comcast.net] has joined #lisp 23:37:23 the topsides, OTOH, were rot sandwiches. 23:37:35 xristos: you can find small-med onshore boats pretty cheap 23:37:41 but keeping one .... 23:37:43 different story 23:38:06 ya, for 5-10k you can get a decent coastal crusier 23:38:17 hell, we got a great boat last year for $1 23:38:24 offshore veteran! 23:38:30 right, but you'll just keep plowing that back in every year to keep it going 23:38:36 usually. 23:38:57 32 ft tahiti ketch .. wood double ender.. salvage job. 23:39:30 but yeah, i spent about 20k for the smaller boat, and she's a great little vessel. 23:40:00 safe, outfitted for live aboard, all the details taken care of. 23:40:03 -!- moritz [n=moritz@U0f8c.u.pppool.de] has quit ["Leaving."] 23:40:05 nice 23:41:08 i met a guy who claimed to make a reasonably good living buying up boats `trapped' in hawaii from people who found offshore was a bit more than they bargained for .... 23:41:34 A nice job! :-) 23:42:00 *Xach* was warned by more than one hawaii guide against "island fever" 23:42:11 ya, you can do these things.. buying boats in the Caribbean and ailing them to the med is another way to do it 23:42:32 sailing them even 23:42:39 yeah. not getting rich at ti, but looked like he was having fun 23:43:12 messing about in boats for a living is rich enough, as far as i'm concerned. 23:43:44 another guy who crewed a beautiful 65ft (i forget the hull) owned by someone with more money than sense or time 23:43:52 -!- sellout [n=greg@c-24-128-50-176.hsd1.ma.comcast.net] has quit [] 23:44:08 so they'd have to sail it all over so this guy could take it out for a few days in the med., or in sout amer. or whatever 23:44:16 Wow, cxml wants a lot of extra software, and I'm trying to avoid all that 23:44:21 whenever he'd be there :) 23:44:35 Draggor: it's worth it. 23:44:36 nice work if you can get it! 23:44:46 dangerous, but a lot of fun. 23:44:48 yeah, pretty unstable though. fun for a few years 23:44:55 enigmus [n=e@S0106001d7e52d1d9.vc.shawcable.net] has joined #lisp 23:45:10 I don't think I need that powerful of stuff, truth be told! 23:45:19 delivery skippers are always sailing offseason to get there for the season :) 23:45:28 salex: isn't everything, at the moment? :) 23:45:48 Draggor: yeah, but once you have it, you have it, and you don't have to think about it any more. 23:46:10 drewc: that's the problem 23:46:29 I don't remember there being too many extra dependencies for cxml, but it's possible that this fancy asdf-install thing I used took care of that for me. 23:46:48 anyway, bbl. 23:46:50 -!- salex [n=user@216.80.143.240] has quit [Remote closed the connection] 23:47:11 Draggor: I like xmls; simple and good for what I needed. 23:47:37 i've used xmls with great success as well. 23:48:05 and, cxml can work with xmls sexps IIRC, so when you need cxml you can get there trivially. 23:48:33 -!- spiderbyte is now known as infoshrew 23:48:43 -!- infoshrew is now known as spiderbyte 23:50:49 trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-226-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has joined #lisp 23:53:27 yangsx [n=yangsx@218.247.244.25] has joined #lisp 23:54:24 gn8 23:57:55 -!- trebor_home [n=user@dslb-084-058-226-021.pools.arcor-ip.net] has quit [Remote closed the connection]